00:00:52 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
00:00:52 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
00:00:53 <myndzi> |\ c.c >\ /< | | /`\ c.c /^\ | |\|/< c.c |\
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00:04:50 <Sgeo> Mousepad decided to scroll the opposite direction for a brief period of time
00:08:56 <oerjan> it's that timey-wimey new year stuff.
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00:23:34 <int-e> ooh. colors explained ... http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031121
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00:32:04 <kmc> happy new year!
00:32:57 <int-e> oh, 2013 was BBB in base 13.
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01:07:13 <Sgeo> Even if the Worlds servers go offline forever, it will always be possible to visit the official Worlds.com worlds
01:08:14 <Bike> Thank Nar'Quilak, god of the Worlds and all who inhabit them
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01:12:44 <quintopia> what are you doing for new years eve
01:13:19 <Sgeo> kmc: the built-in Worlds are stored locally
01:13:26 <Sgeo> And there's an easy to use offline mode
01:17:06 <Sgeo> Should I be using Mozart/Oz 1.4 or Mozart 2?
01:17:23 <Bike> use at least 1.7
01:17:43 <Sgeo> [Mozart 2] adds an extension interface to the virtual machine to allow language extensions defined within Oz."
01:17:50 <Sgeo> ....suddenly I want Mozart 2
01:17:59 <Sgeo> But the main documentation site is all 1
01:18:12 <FireFly> quintopia: so far it's pretty similar to late 2013
01:31:10 <oerjan> quintopia: apart from all the eldrich abominations, it's quite similar.
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01:31:26 <quintopia> oerjan: sorry we never killed the abomination
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01:39:57 <lambdabot> (1.6363636363636365,1.6666666666666667)
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01:48:23 <zzo38> quintopia: I am not doing anything for new year's eve, yet
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02:23:57 <ion> Psy vs. Linkin Park https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycHluR67jiY&list=PLgcoT7-W0fP258nmxEy-2pkFJftUKjdRi
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02:29:27 <ion> http://www.ytj.fi/english/yritystiedot.aspx?yavain=2486686&kielikoodi=3&tarkiste=DA735DFD038226CA09DA2531FAFD93B8303B1F73&path=1704;1736;2052
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03:12:06 <kmc> same to you!
03:15:11 <nooodl> happy new year #esoteric~
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03:40:04 <Sgeo> Oz's or construct... doesn't do this statically, it's more a deadlock if it fails, but still cool: All branches except 1 must ..fail.. So you do have to write conditionals in each branch to exclude the other branches
03:40:09 <Sgeo> Which I think might be more readable
03:40:27 <Sgeo> The 'conditionals' will run simultaneously
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03:49:13 <zzo38> I made up a program in TI-92 calculator to select the puzzle chips for Puzzle Strike game at random.
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05:46:41 <quintopia> zzo38: you should build a drinking game i bet you'd be rich
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06:36:16 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't intend to do such a thing.
06:36:38 <quintopia> yes of course you don't you're zzo38
06:36:40 <Bike> merry hristmasc
06:40:59 <Bike> Given some pairs of starting and ending vertices on a graph, is the problem of finding a set of paths such that every vertex is hit as np-complete as the version with just one pair?
06:41:13 <Bike> and only once, i guess
06:48:48 <Bike> i guess you can probably turn that into normal hamiltonian path by adding edges between the starts and finishes.
06:48:58 <Bike> directed, though
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07:54:28 <Sgeo> I think Oz's WaitNeeded is pretty cool
07:54:38 <Sgeo> {WaitNeeded X} blocks until something else forces X
08:46:08 <Sgeo> "Tune in next year for the exciting beginning!"
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09:35:17 <zzo38> Now I added the year category
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09:58:53 <zzo38> Did you know that some conditions can be implemented in TeX without using the \if... conditional commands?
10:00:37 <zzo38> For example: \def\equalcond#1#2#3{\begingroup\expandafter\def\csname\number#2\endcsname{False}\expandafter\def\csname\number#3\endcsname{True}\edef\next{\endgroup\noexpand\csname#1\csname\number#2\endcsname\noexpand\endcsname}\next}
10:01:18 <zzo38> I also have \nonzerocond, \lesscond, \oddcond, \hmodecond, \vmodecond, \voidcond, and \vboxcond.
10:14:32 <Sgeo> } No, still looks like a blank. Ah, I've got it! It's that Unicode character that looks like a blank, is rendered as a blank, but is actually described as "a ghost in an invisibility cloak, juggling ferrets".
10:22:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, really? What code point is that?
10:23:26 <Sgeo> U+THATWASJUSMEQUOTINGTHEINTERNETORACLENOTAREALOBSERVATION
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11:19:45 <zzo38> Can this 142-byte program be shortened even more? \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
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13:31:54 <zzo38> FreeFull: It makes the "FizzBuzz" output
13:33:33 <FreeFull> Didn't look at it carefully enough
13:34:50 <zzo38> I tried to shorten it with "code golf", without any error messages
13:37:46 <FreeFull> I don't know if you can make it any shorter without switching to a different language
13:38:38 <zzo38> Yes, it can be shorter in other programming languages, but clearly that isn't what I am doing here.
13:39:11 <zzo38> I am writing it using TeX.
13:39:31 <zzo38> It does do a few strange things but maybe you can see if you can understand or not, these things.
13:42:29 <zzo38> For example, the use of \mit without math mode
13:44:07 <zzo38> \mit and \rm are both commands for changing the font, but this program never changes the font. \day is the register to store the current date, but this program doesn't care about the date and time. The \fam register is only for math mode, and this program doesn't use math mode.
13:47:05 <zzo38> Can you program in TeX at all?
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14:28:36 <zzo38> Do you understand a bit so far what I explain?
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14:58:37 <zzo38> Note that \mit is defined something like \def\mit{\fam1 } so if ~ means \advance then ~\mit will increment the \fam register (which does nothing outside of math mode). The \rm command, in addition to selecting the roman font (which is already selected, so it won't change it), has the effect of setting \fam to zero.
15:00:44 <zzo38> So it can shorten by using existing macros in unusual ways.
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15:30:05 <ais523> FreeFull: you don't prefer your fun to be pure?
15:30:37 <FreeFull> That's much more boring because you know what will happen
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16:07:50 <Jafet> “Theoretically, certain types of sleep could be possible while flying, but technical difficulties preclude the recording of brain activity in birds while they are flying.”
16:09:30 <FreeFull> > (\(Sorted xs) -> xs) $ foldMap (Sorted . (:[])) [1,5,3,6,7,2] :: [Integer]
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16:46:28 <impomatic> I've been trying to find out more about SURFIT, an ancestor of Core War.
16:48:50 <FreeFull> > (\(Sorted xs) -> xs) $ foldMap (Sorted . (:[])) ['z','x'..]
16:48:51 <lambdabot> "\NUL\STX\EOT\ACK\b\n\f\SO\DLE\DC2\DC4\SYN\CAN\SUB\FS\RS \"$&(*,.02468:<>@BD...
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16:49:02 <FreeFull> > (\(Sorted xs) -> xs) $ foldMap (Sorted . (:[])) ['z','x'..'a']
16:49:46 <FreeFull> I bet there is some way to combine compression with programming
16:49:57 <impomatic> There doesn't appear to be anything online apart from what I just posted https://plus.google.com/102212268901593257476/posts/YQs8bnXAdsc
16:50:20 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Wed Jan 1 16:50:20
16:51:07 <ais523> FreeFull: there are compression quines
16:53:49 * impomatic wonders if anyone has written a threaded Forth with dictionary compression.
16:54:24 <FreeFull> ais523: I was thinking of a language where meaning changes as you go through the source code, in a similar way to compression sort of
16:54:52 <FreeFull> Where future code would refer to slices of past code, but more complex than that
16:55:15 <Jafet> Eventually, FreeFull invents FORTRAN.
16:56:07 <FreeFull> You know that's not how I meant it =P
16:56:42 <Jafet> Now I want to make zperl
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16:57:30 <ais523> you could use compression-like rules for flow control
16:57:40 <ais523> like, have no loops or conditionals, all you can do is repeat commands that ran earlier
17:01:44 <Jafet> So boring, why not design around actual compression. A program that retains meaning when reduced in the frequency domain.
17:02:24 <Jafet> (cf. http://www.ioccc.org/2011/akari/akari.c)
17:04:01 <ais523> what about a language with the restriction that the compiler rejects source files that become smaller when compressed?
17:04:13 <ais523> i.e. it aggressively rejects code duplication
17:04:32 <ais523> preferably using a compression algorithm that isn't fooled by adding large random comments
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17:13:05 <FreeFull> You don't get comments, you just get code that you skip over
17:13:16 <FreeFull> I'm not sure if such a language would be turing complete
17:20:43 <Jafet> If the language is defined such that a program's output is interpreted as a program in another language, then any (second-stage) program can be written in its Kolmogorov length.
17:21:57 <ais523> FreeFull: no, I don't mean skipped code / comments in particular
17:22:10 <ais523> I mean a compression algorithm that still compresses the compressible bits even if there are incompressible bits too
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18:18:53 <quintopia> FreeFull: check out my language ETAS. it kind of does what you're talking about
18:19:32 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ETAS
18:20:58 <quintopia> FreeFull: except that it does have that jump command which may not be required for turing-completeness. i should probably remove it.
18:28:24 <FireFly> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1u5odz/dogs_poop_in_alignment_with_earths_magnetic_field/ fascinating.
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18:33:42 <Jafet> quintopia: if zzo asked me for reading frames I would just point to x86
18:36:13 <quintopia> Jafet: do you know of any programs for x86 that predictably perform different useful tasks depending upon your starting offset into the program (no cheating by putting programs in as data or jumping past them)
18:37:00 <Jafet> Why is that cheating
18:37:14 <Bike> i believe that is the basic idea behind "functions"
18:37:26 <Jafet> (Try writing a nontrivial "etas" program without doing that)
18:37:57 <quintopia> Jafet: it would be hard, but, i would hope, at least possible.
18:41:27 <Jafet> http://www.ioccc.org/2011/akari/akari.c may be relevant (resampling a program to get another program)
18:42:08 <olsner> quintopia: someone linked a paper about finding unintended code sequences to use for exploits a while ago
18:42:11 <Jafet> To achieve this, the original program has to be very redundant.
18:42:46 <Jafet> ROP uses a large amount of jumping, so it is "cheating" in the above sense
18:42:53 <quintopia> Jafet: yeah i really like that submission
18:43:07 <Jafet> More importantly, it is cheating because the actual program is the prepared stack
18:44:42 <quintopia> Jafet: but the goal with etas was to have something that was "the middle bits of an instruction" later be parsed as "the beginning of an instruction". it's not something i had ever seen in another language.
18:45:46 <Jafet> The only reasonable way to multiprogram in etas, I think, is to cheat
18:46:54 <Jafet> The difficulty probably depends highly on the instruction encoding.
18:48:20 <quintopia> still, it didn't seem possible to program in malbolge either at one point...
18:48:57 <ais523> <quintopia> Jafet: but the goal with etas was to have something that was "the middle bits of an instruction" later be parsed as "the beginning of an instruction". it's not something i had ever seen in another language. ← see MiniMAX, http://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX
18:49:15 <ais523> it's the only way to do any sort of flow control, arithmetic, or well anything
18:49:46 <quintopia> ais523: yeah i think i saw that well after i made etas
18:50:01 <ais523> each instruction is three bytes long, one is a value to write, one is overwritten by the value-to-write of the next command, and one tells you which command to run next (unconditionally)
18:50:12 <ais523> you're not going to get anywhere without command-punning in that language
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18:56:08 <quintopia> i should read the smallfuck interpreter code. it's not clear to me how it would work
19:09:16 <Sgeo> "We're just going through our records and -- even though you're one of our best supporters -- it looks like you're not a 2013 founding member." ... pretty sure I donated money between 0 and 1 times. I pretty much ignore these emails... is "best supporter" just supposed to make me feel good, it's just a lie?
19:10:08 <ais523> Sgeo: I suspect so, mail order catalogues do that all the time
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21:18:21 <Vorpal> Wow, the sale for Just Cause 2 has some fucked up pricing. The cheapest option is not to buy the "Collection" with the game + the DLC, nor is it to buy the game then the DLC pack. No it is to buy the game and then the DLC individually it appears!
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21:23:10 <Vorpal> Basically Just Cause 2 is 80% off. Most of the individual DLC are 81% off(!!!). Except one that is 80% off. The collections are only 50% off each.
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21:26:14 <int-e> ah but I can save even more money by not buying the game at all.
21:28:59 <Vorpal> int-e, well yeah, but in what other game can you go out on the wing of a aircraft you are flying and *grapple hook* over to another aircraft and then throw the pilot out through the window
21:29:27 <Vorpal> Just Cause 2 is one hell of an awesome sandbox game for just doing crazy stuff in
21:29:51 <Vorpal> Such as using your two point grapple hook to tow a tank with a Boeing 747
21:30:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Price of individual games: 6,11€" "Bundle cost: 14,99€" yes, it looks like a good deal.
21:30:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, the game costs 2.99 discounted here
21:31:06 <Vorpal> and the DLC add up to 1.73 EUR
21:31:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can't get that to 6.11
21:31:18 <elliott> apparently they've started making USB drives show up as internal disks in windows
21:31:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: That was for the collection including also the first game.
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21:31:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah right, well the first game is meh from what I heard
21:32:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, also the multi player mod for Just Cause 2 recently released
21:32:31 <int-e> elliott: who "they"?
21:33:00 <Vorpal> elliott, that happened in windows 7 didn't it? At least external rotational USB HDDs had to be removed by "safe removal" thingy in the area next to the clock which I forgot the name of
21:33:15 <Vorpal> Unlike USB flash sticks which you can just right click and select eject on
21:34:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the "notification area" these days.
21:34:36 <fizzie> "When referring to the notification area: Refer to the notification area as the notification area, not the system tray." (MSDN)
21:34:59 <fizzie> Also: "Do not taunt the notification area." (Not MSDN, sadly.)
21:35:40 <int-e> so why is the notification area full of stuff that's not notifications?
21:35:55 <ais523> because people think it's a good place to put advertising
21:36:02 <Vorpal> Because everyone still treats it as the system tray
21:36:09 <fizzie> Because people can't follow directions, perhaps.
21:36:12 <fizzie> "Well-designed programs use the notification area appropriately, without being annoying or distracting."
21:36:24 <ais523> these rules exist because they're so often violated
21:36:31 <fizzie> (It doesn't say what programs that are not well-designed do.)
21:36:46 <Vorpal> The only static icons there that has ever been of any use to me have been the network status and on non-multimedia keyboards, the volume setting
21:36:46 <int-e> if it's not supposed to distract it should be invisible at all times.
21:37:25 <fizzie> I assume the fact everyone puts an always-visible icon there is what made them implement the notification area icon hiding thing.
21:37:29 <Vorpal> I have no idea why steam on windows minimizes into that area also
21:37:42 <Vorpal> That thing is really useful
21:38:04 <Vorpal> Oh yeah at work I also have the Incredibuild icon there. That is like a distcc for windows
21:38:44 <Vorpal> Actually more like a distributed make, since it is a bit smarter about it than distcc
21:38:48 <fizzie> Linux Steam pops up a tray (it's really a tray, the freedesktop.org specification says so) icon too.
21:39:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but it *also* stays in the normal task bar as well when minimized
21:40:34 <Vorpal> XChat and VLC manages to properly minimize to that tray if you want to at least
21:40:41 <Vorpal> Not that I see the point of that
21:40:50 <fizzie> I don't know if Linux Steam knows how to put up an Ayatana "indicator" if running under a Gnomey thing.
21:41:27 <fizzie> Sorry, I guess Ayatana indicators are maybe Ubuntu-specific? I don't really know how it goes.
21:41:36 <Vorpal> Also yeah MATE would definitely count as Gnomey
21:41:52 <Vorpal> Debian with MATE here, mate
21:41:59 <ais523> fizzie: Ayatana's Ubuntu-specific, indeed
21:42:08 <fizzie> It's part of the Ubuntu "user experience" project, I don't know if regular Gnome got the indicators.
21:42:25 <ais523> VLC on Ubuntu should be hiding in the launcher with a context menu, rather than the tray with a context area
21:42:48 <Vorpal> ais523, it only uses the tray if you click on the tray icon to minimize it
21:43:00 <Vorpal> Otherwise it simply minimizes to the normal task bar
21:43:10 <ais523> Vorpal: what annoys me is that it has a tray icon at all
21:43:13 <ais523> although you can turn that off
21:43:30 <ais523> it doesn't have nice controls on the right-click menu on the launcher like Totem does, though, because it's not Unity-aware
21:44:02 <Vorpal> Eh, someone who is computer savy and uses Unity?
21:44:05 <fizzie> There's at least a GNOME Shell extension to integrate "indicators" there. Though as far as I can tell, it's not part of Gnome proper, perhaps.
21:44:19 <ais523> Vorpal: I /like/ Unity :-(
21:44:23 <ais523> but it is rather slow and buggy
21:44:29 <ais523> actually most of the slowness is Zeitgeist's fault
21:44:33 <Vorpal> Last I tried unity, which was admittedly in the first ubuntu version it was included, it was terrible
21:44:44 <Vorpal> What is Zeitgeist now again?
21:44:49 <ais523> until recently I used it just for the launcher
21:45:08 <fizzie> (Fun fact: Ayatana also includes "windicators".)
21:45:11 <ais523> although more recently the lenses/scopes have been useful too
21:45:27 <ais523> Vorpal: Zeitgeist's purpose is basically recording which files you've opened
21:45:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, you say gnome shell, are you talking about the abomination that is Gnome 3?
21:45:32 <ais523> in order to get useful "recently used" output
21:45:39 <ais523> except it is mindbogglingly overengineered for that purpose
21:45:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure, that's what Gnome is.
21:46:02 <coppro> ais523: I wanted to ask you. Do you know of any good let's plays that do weird things and pretend they're entirely normal. I watched an absolutely brilliant Link's Awakening one
21:46:24 <Vorpal> ais523, hm Spotlight on OS X and even more so the Windows 7 start menu search/run field works fine. How hard could it be to replicate that
21:46:29 <ais523> coppro: I don't like that style of play, really
21:46:32 <Vorpal> which btw I have been looking for under linux
21:46:34 <ais523> if people are being weird I like them to acknowledge it
21:46:48 <coppro> ais523: I find ig hilarious
21:46:57 <ais523> so no, although there was a Link's Awakening speedrun like that at one of the SDA marathons
21:47:01 <ais523> it's a good game to act like that
21:47:04 <coppro> "watch out for the old grandmas here, sometimes they shoot octoroks at you"
21:47:05 <Vorpal> coppro, lparchive? Or some youtube thing?
21:47:15 <zzo38> I played Dungeons&Dragons game this morning. My plan wasn't necessary; I was hoping it wouldn't be necessary, since it would be complicated to set up.
21:47:20 <Vorpal> My favourite LP is the Planescape Torment one on lparchive
21:47:22 <ais523> I guess the problem with pretending it's normal is that you don't get an explanation of the technical details
21:47:47 <zzo38> It wasn't very good to eat, but, that's OK
21:48:31 <Vorpal> <coppro> "watch out for the old grandmas here, sometimes they shoot octoroks at you" <-- he glitched the game?
21:49:00 <coppro> Vorpal: very very heavily
21:49:23 <ais523> watch out for the birdphone
21:49:25 <Vorpal> When speed running gets to that level I find it detracts from the experience
21:49:52 <ais523> Vorpal: it's a character that acts like a shopkeeper (up to the instakill effect)
21:49:57 <ais523> but looks like a bird or a telephone
21:49:57 <Vorpal> I just get google hits for someone's twitter account
21:50:02 <ais523> changing between them repeatedly
21:50:51 <coppro> Vorpal: "Welcome to the first dungeon. I don't know why they call it level 8, the developers can't count or something. Now we're about to get the fire rod... it's really strange that they put the strongest item in the first dungeon."
21:50:54 <ais523> it's probably the most memorable effect of the major glitching
21:51:01 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZP63oRVcgg fantastic
21:51:31 <Vorpal> will watch in a second, just going through the latest ocremixes. They decided to post 10 today.
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21:52:47 <fizzie> Somehow I think I've been getting less of the HTML5 player in YouTube lately. :/
21:53:07 <Vorpal> Ah found the LP in question
21:53:16 <Vorpal> Yeah this might be run to look at
21:53:24 <Vorpal> Given that I know how the game is *supposed* to go
22:00:17 <FireFly> nooodl: that reminds me of messing around with that bug with the dog house
22:03:08 <FireFly> coppro: what Link's Awakening let's play was this?
22:03:20 <coppro> I don't have a link on hand, but vorpal found it apparently
22:03:44 <FireFly> Vorpal: mind passing a link to it?
22:07:33 <Vorpal> FireFly, http://lparchive.org/Legend-of-Zelda-Links-Awakening/
22:07:41 <Vorpal> I assume that is what he meant, it fits the bill perfectly
22:07:51 <Vorpal> Also yes it is super-funny if you know how the game is supposed to go
22:07:57 <Vorpal> It makes NO bloody sense if you don't
22:15:47 <Vorpal> coppro, this is bloody amazing
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22:17:57 <coppro> I'd love to see, e.g. a Metroid Prime any% run done like that
22:18:22 <Vorpal> coppro, are there suitable glitches in that game?
22:19:13 <coppro> in terms of sheer absurdity, MP2 would probably be better, because it involves way more out of bounds
22:21:14 <ais523> the start of the Metroid Prime 2 run at AGDQ2013 was done like that
22:21:19 <ais523> but they couldn't really keep it up
22:25:04 <coppro> I guess they might actually do that for miles' run next week
22:25:16 <coppro> it'll only be an hour long and there are plenty of glitches throughout
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22:25:27 <ais523> it's MP1 any%, isn't it?
22:25:44 <ais523> that's not particularly glitchy, in the sense that most of the things it does, it's believable that they're intended
22:25:52 <ais523> apart from the out of bounds segment, but there's only one short one
22:26:04 <coppro> it is any%, but there's so much breakage
22:26:06 <ais523> they aren't intended, but they don't look so massively unintended
22:26:21 <ais523> most of it's just "jump further than expected" or "jump higher than expected"
22:26:34 <coppro> not in terms of actual glitches, but the sequence breaks
22:26:44 <ais523> yeah, the sequence is completely different
22:26:46 <ais523> but it's a Metroid game
22:26:51 <ais523> you're meant to be able to do that
22:27:01 <ais523> Space Jump first? sure, why not
22:28:09 <Vorpal> <ais523> you're meant to be able to do that <-- to some extent
22:28:18 <Vorpal> I only played about half of Super Metroid
22:28:34 <Vorpal> And some stuff was definitely gated by needing something else to reach it
22:28:39 <coppro> most of the MP sequence breaks are glitches and were corrected in later editions; fusion, prime 3, and other M are all linear games built with triggers so you can't really break them
22:29:35 <ais523> Vorpal: hardly anything, because Super Metroid has a bunch of special moves you're not meant to realise exist the first time through
22:29:46 <ais523> coppro: actually, Prime 3 has already been broken
22:29:55 <coppro> super metroid and zero mission were built with more stuff
22:30:01 <ais523> Fusion and Other M have been attempted to break, but Fusion softlocks if you go out of sequence
22:30:09 <ais523> and Other M is full of invisible walls
22:30:21 <coppro> ais523: yeah, prime 3 can only really be broken with OOB though
22:30:44 <ais523> Vorpal: the main ones are the walljump and six varieties of shinespark (the game only tells you about one of them, and even then only in an optional area)
22:30:50 <coppro> so it's really a different class of glitch
22:30:59 <ais523> coppro: Hazard Shield skip
22:31:09 <coppro> ais523: yeah, that one wokrs
22:31:20 <ais523> Vorpal: if you don't know what a shinespark is, then it's safe to say that you don't understand what intended breaks are built into Super Metroid
22:31:28 <ais523> the easy way to do one, a ground-based vertical one
22:31:34 <ais523> is to get up to speed boost speed, crouch, then jump
22:31:35 <coppro> ais523: it's hard to know if they're all intended
22:31:40 <ais523> then you keep going upwards
22:31:41 <Vorpal> ais523, yeah as I said I only got about 1/4 to 1/2 into it
22:31:51 <coppro> it's entirely possible that the devs just didn't think about the consequences of the shinespark
22:32:03 <coppro> and there are definitely dumb physics glitches like the gravity glitch
22:32:14 <ais523> coppro: in my opinion, it's most likely that they explicitly didn't want to think about the consequences
22:32:26 <coppro> ais523: you also forgot the ridiculous things you can do with bomb jumps
22:32:30 <ais523> anyway, Super Metroid has a definite intended sequence
22:32:37 <ais523> coppro: no, I didn't mention the infinite bomb jump, because it's possible it's a glitch
22:32:51 <coppro> ais523: not even the infinite one, but the sideways ones
22:32:52 <ais523> whereas the shinespark is most definitely intended, as is walljump, as is crystal flash
22:33:04 <coppro> gravity suit physics is definitely a glitch too
22:33:09 <ais523> that glitch is in lots of games
22:33:11 <coppro> but yeah, I agree that the philosophy of SM is very different
22:33:16 <ais523> it works in many Zelda games, for instance
22:33:57 <ais523> I have on my hard-drive an unfinished guide to glitches that appear all the time in games
22:34:12 <ais523> some even work in NetHack :-)
22:34:26 <Vorpal> ais523, I just googled shinespark. I do believe I activated some variant of it by mistake at some point but never figured out how to do it again. But it was years ago I played any metroid, didn't really like the game, so I never went back to it.
22:34:34 <Vorpal> So I could misremember
22:34:47 <zzo38> ais523: What glitches are some of them?
22:34:50 <ais523> Vorpal: anyway, the point is that most of the areas that appear to require specific items
22:34:57 <zzo38> And in what kind of games?
22:35:01 <ais523> are actually accessible via a combination of walljumps, infinite bomb jumps, and shinesparks
22:35:01 <coppro> the big difference between SM and MP I think is that SM has a bunch of features, and doesn't work in all the details of how they might affect the sequence. MP breaks almost exclusively require physics glitches
22:35:18 <coppro> SJF is unusual in that it *doesn't*, but the devs attempted to squash it in future versions anyways
22:35:22 <ais523> coppro: well they're mostly numerical glitches
22:35:39 <ais523> SJF is a numerical glitch in that you get it via dashing further than you should be able to
22:35:56 <coppro> yeah, actually, I guess the exact dash effect could be seen as a glitch too
22:35:58 <ais523> actually you can get it by bombjumping too, but that needs you to actually get bombs first
22:36:02 <coppro> but there's other things, like early Wild
22:36:08 <coppro> which is just a poorly placed trigger
22:36:10 <ais523> coppro: well they tried to fix it in Metroid Prime 2, and in Metroid Prime PAL
22:36:21 <ais523> in Metroid Prime 2, you have to let go of L (as in MP1) but also hold R, which is diffrent from MP1
22:36:36 <ais523> in the PAL version, you have to do it off an enemy, which means luring an enemy out of one of the nearby corridors, so it's much slower
22:36:53 <ais523> also, early Wild isn't a poorly placed trigger
22:36:58 <ais523> that's like the only place in the game where an infinite bomb jump works
22:37:06 <ais523> I'd say the trigger's in the right place but the walls are weird
22:37:19 <ais523> making the infinite bomb jump possible
22:37:55 <ais523> but then, early Wild is awesome and the game's better for it existing
22:37:59 <ais523> and it doesn't hurt anything
22:38:01 <coppro> other great ones: cargo ship skip, every thing about skipping Thardus
22:38:08 <ais523> it's not like the Artifact of Wild actually does anything until after you'd normally need it
22:38:12 <coppro> TBJ breaks a lot and you can do worse
22:39:21 <ais523> also triple bomb jumps are pretty rarely useful
22:39:51 <ais523> cargo ship skip is the only one I can think of offhand, now that the rune door leading to the Charge Beam (?) turns out to be faster in in-game time to do the intended way
22:40:09 <coppro> I think you're thinking the one to flaaghra
22:41:01 <ais523> I was trying to remember which was which
22:41:07 <ais523> they are so similar-looking :-(
22:41:23 <coppro> nah, the charge beam one is a big round one
22:42:46 <ais523> I thought the big round one went to Flaahgra
22:42:50 <ais523> also, something that I've been wondering about
22:42:57 <ais523> what do you actually need the charge beam for?
22:43:12 <ais523> even low%s get it, and I don't think they need super missiles
22:43:23 <ais523> and the only point I can think of that might potentially need it is the entrance to Phendrana
22:44:57 <Vorpal> coppro, wow the logistics of making that glitch Zelda LA LP
22:45:35 <coppro> ais523: ugh, I was reading this discussion on m2k2 the other day and now I can't remember
22:45:52 <ais523> I was thinking of looking on m2k2
22:45:56 <ais523> are the forums still alive?
22:46:14 <ais523> I know the main website wasn't, last I looked
22:47:04 <coppro> charge beam has been skipped
22:47:32 <coppro> current min% is missiles, morph ball, bombs, varia, wave, ice, plasma, pbs, xray, and artifacts
22:48:48 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering which missiles that is
22:49:05 <ais523> could be the intended ones, I guess, there's no reason not to except it's a long fight
22:49:22 <ais523> also that min% doesn't add up
22:49:35 <coppro> 12 artifacts + 9 items
22:49:47 <ais523> 12 artifacts, + {missiles, morph ball, bombs, varia, wave, ice, plasma, power bombs, x-ray scope}
22:49:51 <ais523> that skips phazon suit
22:49:55 <ais523> which is required for the final boss
22:50:20 <coppro> phazon suit isn't a % unless it's the last one
22:50:41 <ais523> oh, it doesn't count towards percentage if you don't have gravity?
22:50:49 <ais523> I thought it counted for 2%
22:50:50 <coppro> no, it doesn't count unless you have all other items
22:51:46 <coppro> or maybe it doesn't count at all and the game just has no 99%; I don't know if anyone's gotten the energy tank afterward without it to be able to test this
22:51:47 <ais523> MP1's percentage counter is weird
22:52:08 <ais523> did you know that collecting all the power bomb expansions but not the main power bombs gives you the same percentage as collecting the main power bombs?
22:52:23 <coppro> I guess it just counts by number of PBs?
22:52:37 <ais523> in Metroid Prime 2, they just add 1% whenever you collect an item
22:52:47 <ais523> so you can get 101% because there's one missile expansion you can pick up twice
22:53:04 <coppro> the MP1 counter sounds like every bug ever in NetHack
22:53:45 <coppro> the infinite boost item loss skip is so stupid
22:54:08 <ais523> that one makes no sense
22:54:16 <ais523> I know the technical details are that it triggers every cutscene in the room at the same time
22:54:28 <ais523> and the one where you land triggers before the one where you start falling so you end up at the wrong position
22:54:45 <ais523> but I have no idea /why/ it triggers every cutscene in the room at the same time
22:54:50 <ais523> maybe Samus ends up infinitely large or something
22:54:55 <ais523> hitting all the triggers at once
22:55:27 <coppro> the 20% MP1 thread on m2k2 is fun to read
22:56:32 <coppro> morph ball, missiles, bombs, pbs, xray, and artifacts all seem entirely unskipabble, barring some insane break that lets you into the impact crater without the artifacts
22:57:46 <ais523> missiles aren't actually required for anything but doors, right?
22:57:50 <ais523> I put them in the same category as beams
22:58:01 <ais523> possibly slightly easier because you don't have to hit the final boss with them
22:58:11 <coppro> getting the artifact of nature from the stalagmite
22:58:22 <ais523> can't you do that with the Charge Beam?
22:58:48 <coppro> maybe, but then you go up a % anyway
22:59:35 <coppro> one suggestion in the 20% thread was to get SJ and try and lose varia (assuming that SJ will help crossing magmoor) and something else like wave
22:59:38 <ais523> bombs are required for bomb jumps, in addition to many obstacles
22:59:40 <coppro> wave seems like a popular target
22:59:57 <ais523> yeah but how do you beat the final boss without it?
23:00:04 <coppro> just wait for him to change naturally
23:00:04 <ais523> there aren't that many places you need it otherwise
23:00:12 <ais523> I don't think he does in the first wave phase
23:00:14 <coppro> doors are the problem; they need to be SWed around
23:00:36 <ais523> actually I prefer the "Dark Samus is male" theory but it's not very popular
23:00:55 <coppro> I ascribe Dark Samus as female, but Metroid Prime as genderless
23:01:08 <coppro> and I tend to run with the French convention of using the masculine for neutral/unknown
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23:01:28 <coppro> due to having been in French immersion
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23:32:38 <ais523> coppro: btw, looking up the beam use on the final boss itself, it forces you to use power/ice/wave but you can get away without plasma
23:32:46 <ais523> because it's reached the spontaneous-change phase before plasma is required
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00:00:33 <coppro> ais523: ah ok. I think what they're trying to do with wave is wallcrawl to plasma without it
00:00:41 <coppro> and then pick it up later
00:01:03 <ais523> they're trying to get into Phendrana without Varia
00:01:15 <ais523> which requires Wave (obviously impossible), or Plasma + a bunch of tricks that haven't been found yet
00:01:17 <ais523> but they're looking for them
00:01:52 <coppro> they're trying to go through the back door
00:02:15 <coppro> and they're down to needing only 2 more tricks
00:02:58 <coppro> do you know offhand if you can wallcrawl out of the magmoor damage, like you can in dark aether?
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00:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, ais523, did any of you play other m by any chance
00:21:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hahahahahahahaha
00:22:17 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: I've beaten it
00:22:28 <coppro> I'm not sure why the question is *that* funny to ais523
00:22:32 <Sgeo> "The discovery of this room was a complete accident – much like this entire project – and to top it off, it is in a default world."
00:22:40 <Sgeo> So WHY did you categorize it as a "custom" world?
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00:23:52 <coppro> NewYearInterpol: it's highly on topic here
00:24:27 <ais523> well, not /really/, unless someone proves Metroid TC
00:24:38 <ais523> it's probably PSPACE_complete the same way Mario is, actually
00:24:42 <coppro> this channel is not actually about esoteric programming languages
00:24:51 <ais523> yeah, I keep leaving because of that
00:25:40 <coppro> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1203.1895v1.pdf
00:26:13 <Sgeo> And... this person misunderstands how Worlds actually works
00:29:44 <ais523> coppro: hope that it's got better
00:29:50 <ais523> or occasionally to test out a BF Joust program
00:30:10 <coppro> in zero mission you can grab a ledge and morph from it, right?
00:30:17 <Sgeo> NewYearInterpol: really, really old 3d chat program
00:30:17 <coppro> that would break the constructions for Zero Mission
00:30:25 <ais523> with the Power Grip, yes, I think
00:30:42 <ais523> you can use crumble blocks, though
00:30:47 <ais523> in order to create one-way corridors
00:30:48 <Sgeo> I hope this note I left isn't too rude http://gradualdime.wikia.com/wiki/Animal_House_Control_Room
00:30:58 <ais523> the hard part is creating switches that have effects down the line
00:31:30 <ais523> we're discussing the computational class of Metroid games
00:31:56 <Bike> not really, just level editing
00:31:59 <ais523> well, more like theoretical ROM hacking
00:32:03 <ais523> we're not planning to hack any ROMs
00:32:06 <Bike> along the lines of the mario and dkcountry NP proofs
00:32:06 <ais523> just to discuss how it might work
00:32:13 <Bike> (i love that that paper had figures)
00:32:16 <coppro> I suspect that the proof still holds, you just need more complicated gadgets
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00:32:53 <ais523> well for Mario and Donkey Kong Country, you can use shells/barrels
00:32:55 <Bike> can you just not provide spacejump and use gravity for diodes?
00:33:02 <Bike> i guess i don't remember how the mechanisms worked anyway.
00:33:05 <ais523> Bike: infinite wall jump can be done with no items
00:33:06 <coppro> I'm just talking metroid games with power trip
00:33:09 <ais523> but you can use crumble blocks for diodes
00:33:11 <ais523> that's what they're for
00:33:20 <ais523> completely undefeatable
00:33:23 <Bike> man, i could never walljump for ass.
00:33:30 <Bike> could you walljump in the original?
00:33:30 <ais523> Bike: it's intentionally difficult
00:33:33 <ais523> so that you won't find it by mistake
00:33:37 <coppro> super metroid cheats and has a crossover built in
00:33:39 <ais523> and in the original probably not
00:33:50 <Bike> i've never played super metroid >_>
00:33:54 <ais523> coppro: that really long pipe thing in Maridia?
00:34:05 <Bike> got the rom but it turns out phone touchpads are not good enough for snes controls
00:34:09 <ais523> filling a game of /those/ would be tedious
00:34:26 <ais523> Bike: especially not Super Metroid, which has famously convoluted controls
00:34:36 <ais523> they had to simplify them for Fusion because of fewer buttons
00:35:07 <Bike> well, no way you could do fusion's trigger for missiles thing
00:36:07 <ais523> I think you might be able to do a crossover simply using momentum
00:37:09 <coppro> ais523: actually, yeah, you could do it with regenerating speed boost blocks
00:37:35 <ais523> is there a way to stop people shinesparking back the way they came, though?
00:37:41 <coppro> you don't need to care about that
00:37:52 <coppro> you just need to ensure they can't change directions
00:37:52 <ais523> I guess if you have some curved, crossing paths
00:37:54 <ais523> NewYearInterpol: crossover
00:38:16 <ais523> coppro: I'm thinking, you charge the speed boost, crouch on the way, then set it off in the middle
00:38:21 <Bike> a way ffor two paths to cross.
00:38:22 <ais523> instantly refilling your momentum
00:38:33 <coppro> ais523: use speed boost vertically, morph ball tunnel horizontally
00:38:50 <ais523> coppro: you can't speed boost downwards, but I guess that doesn't matter?
00:38:54 <Bike> no i fucking didn't
00:38:58 <coppro> ais523: you only need one direction
00:39:27 <ais523> in Super Metroid, what if you get down to low HP so that it stops halfway through, just when you're level with the tunnel
00:39:33 <ais523> (say using failed shinesparks)
00:39:43 <ais523> then mid-air morph and roll into the tunnel
00:39:57 <Bike> it's what i said!
00:39:58 <coppro> super metroid doesn't have the power glove, so it's not a concern
00:40:08 <Bike> they're talking about making a horizontal route and a vertical route go through the same tiles
00:40:15 <coppro> and other m is 3d so you can just implement it by having them go round
00:40:24 <ais523> coppro: it is, you can get into a morph tunnel in mid-air in Super Metroid
00:40:28 <coppro> so mzm and fusion are the only ones you need to worry about
00:40:30 <ais523> speedrunners do it all the time on the way back from getting bombs
00:40:38 <coppro> ais523: oh, good point
00:40:40 <ais523> it's ridiculously precise but it's possible
00:41:06 <coppro> but super metroid already has a crossover so all's good
00:41:18 <coppro> this breaks the Clause gadget too
00:41:27 <coppro> actually, it's totally broken in any game with power bombs
00:41:44 <ais523> can't you use super missile blocks instead, which are immune to power bombs?
00:42:13 <coppro> ais523: how do you make it implement a 3-sat clause though?
00:42:22 <ais523> coppro: I'm not sure yet
00:46:30 <oerjan> just do planar 3-coloring, no crossover needed.
00:49:15 <ais523> how does the Clause gadget work again?
00:49:29 <coppro> ais523: lots of zoomers
00:49:56 <ais523> do you have a link to the PDF handy?
00:50:11 <ais523> also I didn't realise there was a Metroid version already
00:51:24 <coppro> it's all the same paper
00:51:36 <ais523> I missed the link the first time
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01:26:07 <ais523> there are quite a few issues in this paper
01:26:18 <ais523> we've already discussed the Power Grip issue with the given crossover in Metroid
01:26:28 <ais523> (and more worryingly, the Clause construction)
01:27:09 <ais523> the Pokémon construction's also "wrong", in that Alakazam could keep missing with Psychic (it has a 255/256 hit chance), but that's easily fixable via PP abuses
01:29:20 <coppro> ais523: Clause is vulnerable to power bomb
01:29:31 <coppro> ais523: afaict the construction works for the original metroid though
01:29:45 <coppro> although it might actually be possible to get through with some bombs
01:30:23 <ais523> if you can infinite bomb jump in the original metroid
01:30:28 <coppro> ais523: do you have any good let's play recommendations?
01:30:30 <ais523> you could just get into it from below
01:30:36 <coppro> ais523: in original metroid?
01:30:54 <ais523> via infinite bomb jump into the tunnel after killing the zoomers
01:31:03 <ais523> although I think their constructions are designed to just not give you the power bomb
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03:39:20 <zzo38> Do you know how to make the graphics for the Famicom version of my "Attribute Zone" game?
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03:49:06 <zzo38> Currently only PC version exists, and it just uses PC text mode graphics.
03:50:55 <zzo38> (Despite this, the game rules are designed around the Famicom.)
03:50:58 <kmc> what is the game like?
03:51:18 <kmc> can i play it?
03:51:53 <kmc> if you advertise software as for "PC" but no OS then I'm going to assume it's bootable and will run it in QEmu :)
03:53:00 <zzo38> kmc: That is a good idea, but I have included no bootloader; it needs some DOS functions. It is a DOS program. However maybe it can be fixed to support a plain PC.
03:53:08 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, you can play it, you need the file http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP which contains ATTRZONE.*
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03:53:43 <kmc> then I can play it in DOSBox probably
03:55:01 <zzo38> And then you need a way to run DOS programs, or some way to compile it to work in other systems (although it uses PC hardware registers, so you need to convert those too unless you only want to remove the OS requirement and still have it run in a PC or PC emulator).
03:55:10 <zzo38> So, yes probably DOSBox will work.
03:57:18 <quintopia> can you briefly describe the goal and idea of the game
03:57:54 <zzo38> It is described in the relevant section of CGACOLL.DOC (search it for "ATTRZONE"), but I can also explain more if you have other questions.
03:58:24 <Bike> you need to hire a PR person.
03:58:47 <zzo38> Bike: If I intend to sell any of these things sometimes, then maybe I will. But for now I don't.
04:00:55 * quintopia installs an android x86 emu for DOSing
04:02:47 <zzo38> The main idea of this game is that you cannot have two different non-white colors of pieces in a single 2x2 block. Another rule is no more than eight sprites per row.
04:03:01 <zzo38> Currently there is only two levels but you can make your own if you want to.
04:03:09 <Bike> maybe you could start with "it's a puzzle game"
04:03:20 <zzo38> O, yes, it is that.
04:03:34 <zzo38> This ZIP archive is full of many other games too!
04:21:16 <quintopia> damn the dos emu for android doesn't let you add new files to its filesystem. it emulates a fixed hard drive
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05:54:07 <shachaf> So there's the idea of a "free object" on a set where you take an equivalence class of ASTs, more or less.
05:55:09 <shachaf> E.g. you start with all the elements in a set, you add a 1 element and you make every tree that you can using (*), and then you consider trees equal if the monoid laws force them to be equal.
05:55:56 <shachaf> But there's also e.g. the idea of a free category on a graph, where you take paths through the graph (and if your graph has one object and a set of loops, you end up with the same free monoid).
05:56:11 <shachaf> Can you think of a construction like that in a similar way?
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05:58:50 <shachaf> I don't have much intuition for the general sense of "free object" other than the definition (a left adjoint).
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06:50:10 <kmc> $ evince downloads/541.pdf
06:50:10 <kmc> (evince:9676): GLib-ERROR **: creating thread 'EvJobScheduler': Error creating thread: Resource temporarily unavailable
06:50:13 <kmc> Trace/breakpoint trap
06:50:45 <kmc> it worked the second time because chromium crashed in the meantime?
07:08:23 <Sgeo> "Unlike Bitcoin, Namecoin, and Litecoin, Peercoin does not have a hard limit on the number of possible coins, but is designed to eventually attain an annual inflation rate of 1 percent. This feature, along with increased energy efficiency, aim to allow for greater long-term scalability."
07:08:36 <Sgeo> Is that.. actually more sensible, or is that just guessing that that's more sensible?
07:09:16 <Bike> the fed controls inflation thrugh controlling interest rates, i think? i don't know how an intrinsic inflation efects things
07:15:45 <Sgeo> Oh neat, proof of stake basically makes sure that transaction fees aren't sole incentive for miners
07:34:40 <kmc> Sgeo: a hard limit gives you deflation, which encourages hoarding rather than spending
07:34:49 <kmc> so it seems to me like a good change
07:34:54 <kmc> but i know next to nothing about economics
07:36:06 <kmc> you can say that cryptocurrencies have mortmain monetary policy but really they have monetary policy set by a hashrate-weighted direct democracy
07:36:39 <kmc> it would be interesting to have a decentralized currency with a one-vote-per-person direct democracy
07:37:35 <kmc> you probably need some central authority to decide what a "person" is, though
07:37:42 <kmc> fancy word
07:37:54 <Bike> beyond a poor peasant like me, sir
07:38:06 <kmc> central authority e.g. a national identity smartcard system like taiwan has (only without the fatally broken random number generators lolololol)
07:39:32 <Bike> here i thought it was some hipness for "mortal [dying] main authority"
07:39:41 <kmc> and you could do anonymous e-voting (the usual way is additively homeomorphic encryption, I believe)
07:40:12 * kmc tries to remember how that works
07:40:23 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, homeomorphic encryption?
07:40:28 <Bike> homeomorphic encrytion is dark magic and nothing less
07:40:37 <kmc> guess it's spellt homomorphic
07:40:45 <kmc> but other fields use the two words interchangeably don't they?
07:40:46 <Bike> are there actual implementations, i forget
07:40:50 <Bike> like, good ones.
07:41:07 <Sgeo> I think I like parpolity but not parecon, but parpolity seems to rely on parecon
07:41:10 <kmc> well even RSA is homomorphic for multiplication
07:41:20 <shachaf> kmc: the only meaning of "homeomorphism" i've ever heard is "isomorphism of topological spaces"
07:41:42 <shachaf> homeomorphic encryption sounds like it would be exciting
07:41:49 <kmc> Bike: but there are actual implementations for schemes that can compute any circuit, too
07:41:53 <kmc> https://github.com/shaih/HElib
07:41:56 <kmc> i don't know about "good ones"
07:42:10 <kmc> bootstrapped homomorphic encryption is p. cool
07:42:14 <Bike> well, i just mean, like, usable to run a country or whatever.
07:42:28 <Bike> "Bike, nothing is good by that standard."
07:42:30 <ion> Homeopathic encryption: add 9 parts NULs to 1 part of data, shake well into three directions, repeat the process 30 to 100 times.
07:43:15 <ion> Take a part of the result, it will contain the essence of the original data.
07:45:48 <kmc> Bike: with a HE primitive, you can only do a certain amount of computation on each encrypted value, and bootstrapping solves this awesomely with self-reference
07:45:50 <Sgeo> "However, security against adaptive chosen ciphertext attacks (CCA2) is equivalent to non-malleability."
07:46:25 <kmc> http://crypto.stanford.edu/craig/easy-fhe.pdf is the shit
07:46:27 <Bike> i tried to understand hom(e)omorphic encryption once but couldn't get past the consequences. incidentally this is about as far as i understand any encyryption
07:46:50 <Bike> that's not really incidental so much as my entire point, hm.
07:47:31 <kmc> consequences?
07:47:53 <Bike> the whole computation on encrypted data thingie
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08:01:00 <kmc> what do you mean by "get past" i guess
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08:02:45 <Bike> that i don't unerstand shit
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10:26:34 <Sgeo> Apparently floating eyes that hunt you down and chomp at you and put you in a secret part of the attic are "weird"
10:34:42 <fizzie> Does that happen to you often?
10:35:31 <Sgeo> It happens in WorldsPlayer when someone in AnimalHouse gets past a fence they shouldn't be able to
10:35:41 <Sgeo> I don't know why people keep calling WorldsPlayer creepy
10:36:17 <fizzie> Does it bother you that people keep calling WorldsPlayer creepy? [Responses from this point on provided by M-x doctor.]
10:42:21 <Sgeo> "Woah... that's just a mirror, but it freaked me out, because this game is weird"
10:42:53 <fizzie> When did you first know that this game is weird?
10:43:17 <fizzie> Aw, I have to go to the shop now. (That was no longer from Emacs.)
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12:50:22 <HackEgo> Membiio: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:51:26 <Membiio> >+++++++++++++[->++++++++++++++<]>+++++++++++++++++.
12:51:38 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++++++++++[->++++++++++++++<]>+++++++++++++++++.
12:52:36 <oerjan> !bf >+++++++++++++[->++++++++++++++<]>+++++++++++++++++.
12:53:14 <oerjan> fortunately EgoBot also has a bf command.
12:55:08 <fizzie> pratchett.freenode.net seems to have gone away.
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12:56:34 <oerjan> i doubt we have any FiM++ experts here.
12:57:51 <oerjan> maybe Gregor, since he's a brony
12:58:07 <oerjan> but he doesn't look present
13:02:05 <oerjan> Membiio: i'm afraid the reason we don't talk about FiM++ and languages like that (e.g. LOLCODE) much is that they're really just a heap of fluff around an underlying very _normal_ language.
13:02:40 <oerjan> so the things we _do_ like to talk about here are even worse to program in.
13:02:55 <oerjan> (you've already noticed bf)
13:04:20 <Membiio> WE NEED A LANGUAGE BASED ON BACON AND BAGELS.
13:04:42 <oerjan> well you can try Chef, that's at least food :P
13:09:14 <oerjan> well chef is a lot of fluff _and_ a more awkward underlying language. i cannot exactly read it on the spot either.
13:11:26 <oerjan> for a language _without_ fluff and very simply basic commands, you can try Underload. alas it's still not easy to do anything advanced with.
13:12:00 <oerjan> bf also doesn't have fluff.
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13:32:34 <fizzie> Except maybe FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
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13:47:26 <Taneb> BCKW calculus is totally underrated
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13:54:30 <oerjan> `addquote <ion> Homeopathic encryption: add 9 parts NULs to 1 part of data, shake well into three directions, repeat the process 30 to 100 times.
13:54:34 <HackEgo> 1153) <ion> Homeopathic encryption: add 9 parts NULs to 1 part of data, shake well into three directions, repeat the process 30 to 100 times.
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14:01:54 <boily> good anne morning!
14:02:23 -!- metasepia has joined.
14:02:37 <metasepia> CYQB 021300Z 02004KT 30SM FEW015 SCT180 M31/M36 A3055 RMK SC1AC2 SLP355
14:07:39 <boily> that would be me. I've been shifted to a different table because my mom and aunt are going to do scrapbooking today. I'm sitting at a green one in the basement.
14:07:47 <boily> so that makes me Anne of Green Tables.
14:12:43 <fizzie> boily: "I predict that a century hence the Canadian people will be the noblest specimens of humanity on the face of the Earth", rev. John Bredin, 1863, via xkcd. Do you feel this was an accurate prediction?
14:14:33 <boily> fizzie: not to sound sycophantic this morning, but I thing Scandinavian people are in a better pool position than us.
14:17:19 <fizzie> boily: Does "better pool position" translate to "more likely to go down a hole"?
14:19:31 <boily> fizzie: I'm drinking coffee. I can't be pessimistic.
14:20:08 <int-e> kmc: good topic ... nothing sounds stranger than the truth.
14:20:34 <boily> what happened to the poor /topic?
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16:08:24 <fizzie> Catface, he's got a big cat's face, he's got the body of a cat, and the face of a cat, and he flies through the air cos' he's got a catface, catface!
16:13:50 <boily> but, I have unlimited coffee and there's a fire in the hearth.
16:19:02 <boily> how's life on your end? not too cold today?
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16:35:01 <metasepia> KATL 021618Z 22005KT 1 1/2SM BR OVC005 09/08 A2987 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 5 RAE04 P0001
16:56:18 <metasepia> ESSA 021650Z 15009KT 9999 BKN020 04/00 Q1009 R01L/29//95 R08/25//95 R01R/29//95 NOSIG
16:57:05 <boily> how dare you all having over-zero temperatures?
16:59:14 <metasepia> LOWI 021650Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW060 BKN070 OVC100 03/M01 Q1012 R08/19//95 NOSIG
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17:03:26 <quintopia> is it just my browser rendering wrong, or does the funciton page contain a smaller second copy of the entire page embedded near the end of it
17:09:55 <int-e> on the wiki? the page looks normal here.
17:12:16 <quintopia> it rendered right when i closed the tab and reopened it
17:14:35 <boily> quintopia's being haunted by poltertabs.
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17:39:14 <metasepia> EFHK 021720Z 12011KT 9999 BKN017 00/M03 Q1017 NOSIG
17:39:30 <fizzie> Yay, barely made it to the over-zero club.
17:39:38 <boily> meanwhile, THE AUNTS ARE COMING!
17:42:04 <int-e> are they joining the green table?
17:43:00 <boily> no. the Green Table is Mine.
17:44:29 <fizzie> 'tis the season for aunts, I guess.
17:44:39 <quintopia> can i be a knight of the green table?
17:45:20 <boily> Sir Quintopia de la Vertable, serving under Fizzie, King of the Flying Wizard Dogs.
17:52:24 <kmc> int-e: thanks
18:19:28 <kmc> https://defuse.ca/bochs-hacking-guide.htm guide to hacking Bochs, including adding new instructions and registers
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18:26:07 <metasepia> The Royal Naval Sailing Association is the governing body that oversees all aspects of sailing, both racing and recreational sailing cruises, throughout the British Royal Navy.
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18:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> iirc on xchat you fix this by entering your password in the 'server password' form rather than 'nickserv password'
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18:54:34 <Sorella> Phantom_Hoover, ah, yeah. I moved from ERC to XChat yesterday and didn't configure it yet
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18:56:08 <Bike> don't be ridiculous, phǟntom
18:56:39 <Sorella> Are there programs that don't do that automatically these days?
18:59:25 <boily> Bike: that's one nice diacrḯtic stack.
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19:03:00 <boily> TIL you can have above-dot and macron on a letter. we live in a Good Universe.
19:03:28 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.7128 adventures in tenure
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19:29:51 <fizzie> "No time travelers were discovered." Sad.
19:31:21 <boily> “Hungarumlaut... [citation needed” ← also sad. that words need to be officially homologated.
19:31:31 <fizzie> "Requests for Time Travelers to Issue a Prescient Internet Communication" ha, nobody's going to answer that one, they'd be nabbed by the Time Cops for sure.
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19:37:20 <int-e> boily: to answer your earlier question about the topic, I would say that it is in TURMOIL.
19:37:35 <fizzie> "Hashtagging -- labeling Internet content with terms beginning with a "#" -- originated on the Internet in the Internet Relay Chat (IRC) channels, --" weeeel.
19:37:49 <boily> int-e: but why so much TROUBLE? I mean, such a PEACEFUL topic...
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19:39:50 <int-e> boily: http://cryptome.org/2014/01/nsa-codenames.htm HTH
19:40:23 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/NSA_SURLYSPAWN.jpg
19:40:39 <kmc> uh don't click that link if you work for the US government or ever intend to get a security clearance
19:41:18 <Bike> ...is that a real one or is it from the generator
19:41:23 <Bike> stupid future.
19:41:24 <kmc> real i think
19:41:30 <kmc> one of the scarier things about this spy gadget catalog is that the stuff in it is at least 7 years old
19:42:40 <kmc> they put an ARM processor, 100 MB of storage, and an FPGA in a package the size of a penny... at the same time the original iPhone was being developed
19:42:50 <Bike> http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html Happy 2014, also
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19:43:53 <kmc> developing this stuff must be such a fun job if you ignore all the parts that aren't
19:44:30 <int-e> I like this sentence. "Windows need be no more than an archaic touch."
19:44:40 <LinearInterpol> kmc: I'm not surprised. FPGAs have been around for a looooooong time, and building a low-cost, low-power, small-as-fuck one wasn't hard years ago.
19:45:05 <LinearInterpol> all comes down to how many logic elements it has, and you can do a lot with a few of them.
19:45:11 <kmc> indeed they used a commercially available one
19:45:38 <Jafet> kmc: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nasa-gets-two-military-spy-telescopes-for-astronomy/2012/06/04/gJQAsT6UDV_print.html
19:45:51 <kmc> xilinx i think, but i'd have to look it up
19:46:03 <kmc> Jafet: yeah that was pretty cool
19:46:15 <Bike> fuck xilinx tools grr grr grr
19:46:32 <LinearInterpol> and the fact that they dumped the waveform simulator in like quartus 9.
19:46:43 <Bike> "The appliances of 2014 will have no electric cords, of course, for they will be powered by long- lived batteries running on radioisotopes."
19:47:54 <int-e> that's good, astonishingly close.
19:48:23 <int-e> (the asimov thing)
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19:48:51 <Bike> futurolgy is always fun like this. predicts self-driving cars in development, but also flying cars
19:49:15 <Bike> also moving sidewalks. why would anyone want moving sidewalks?
19:49:20 <LinearInterpol> there was a story I remember that asimov wrote that was friggin' awesome.
19:49:48 <int-e> Bike: see airports. but they are too high maintenance for outdoor areas.
19:50:29 <Bike> "In 2014, there is every likelihood that the world population will be 6,500,000,000 and the population of the United States will be 350,000,000. Boston-to-Washington, the most crowded area of its size on the earth, will have become a single city with a population of over 40,000,000." hey, slick.
19:50:45 <Bike> int-e: are those really sidewalks? i mean, you don't stop at storefronts on the way.
19:51:35 <int-e> Bike: they are not, but the idea is the same, speeding up walking by steping on some moving strip
19:51:57 <Bike> «The 2014 fair will feature an Algae Bar at which "mock-turkey" and "pseudosteak" will be served.» hell yeah motherfucers
19:52:32 <mauke> pfft, I read a story with algae farms that took place in 1992
19:53:34 <Bike> "Not all the world's population will enjoy the gadgety world of the future to the full. A larger portion than today will be deprived and although they may be better off, materially, than today, they will be further behind when compared with the advanced portions of the world. They will have moved backward, relatively."
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19:59:16 <int-e> on the other hand, communication is satellite based rather than cell based.
19:59:41 <shachaf> delicious Jacobs Orange Club, Penguin, and Jaffa Cake
20:01:25 <boily> how many hexhamites are left?
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20:43:14 <boily> “hot young tech wizard”. he he he.
20:43:34 <kmc> pinball wizard
20:45:45 <fizzie> Huh, there's an Epic Pinball remake on the iThings (called "Retro Pinball").
20:55:48 <mauke> http://youtu.be/XvdpjZYLumw
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20:59:08 <fizzie> Based on their name, I was expecting more ukulele.
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21:10:50 <kmc> boily: oh, missed that it's asimov
21:12:12 <Taneb> shachaf, what am I attending to?
21:12:35 <boily> shachaf: what are you tanebbing again?
21:12:52 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html
21:13:05 <kmc> sorry, that was meant to be "Bike:"
21:13:36 * boily is now known as a Bike-proxy
21:15:42 <ais523> boily: is that when you ride on an exercise bike, and it's remotely connected to the handlebars and pedals of a real bike somewhere out there in, say, the streets of London
21:16:16 <ais523> with a camera that keeps track of where it's going, so you get a view from the bike
21:16:36 <ais523> I'm not sure what this technology is useful yet, but it sounds like an intereting idea
21:18:13 <fizzie> I believe there are things for rendering a virtual environment you can exercise-bike through.
21:18:17 <boily> being a courier is a dangerous job. with remote-controlled bikes, this removes almost all possibilities of grievous bodily harm.
21:18:22 <fizzie> It sounds like a high-fidelity version of that.
21:18:44 <boily> besides, because it's made of bikes, it's eco-friendly and keeps you in shape!
21:18:44 <ais523> I like boily's idea better
21:19:02 <ais523> but I doubt it's that eco-friendly
21:19:10 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: They could offer a feature where the customer gets to drive the bike.
21:19:17 <ais523> you won't generate much electricity on the exercise bike, not really enough to offset the needs of the bike drone
21:19:19 <fizzie> Would be far better than reloading the package status tracking page.
21:19:25 <kmc> that sounds like something from Black Mirror
21:19:40 * boily raps on Bike with a maple stick
21:19:43 <fizzie> Actually, they could do that for their quadcopter delivery things, I think that'd be enormously popular.
21:19:59 <fizzie> (Plus no need to build fancy software to fly.)
21:20:25 <ais523> fizzie: they'd almost certainly be flown into buildings and each other and the like
21:20:27 <ais523> or used to spy on people
21:20:30 <kmc> I wanted to build a bike drone
21:20:34 <kmc> that is, a robot bike
21:21:26 <fizzie> ais523: Perhaps they'd offer it only when their heuristics say the object being ordered is so desirable, the person controlling it will be extra careful.
21:21:43 <fizzie> (And also fly it straight home without dallying around.)
21:22:10 <fizzie> Are there many autonomous two-wheeled devices?
21:22:28 <fizzie> Or autonomous unicycles, for that matter.
21:22:32 <Taneb> shachaf, something relevant for Hexhamites
21:22:55 <shachaf> Taneb: oh, jaffa cakes and things
21:23:15 <Taneb> I don't really like jaffa cakes
21:23:20 <ais523> the Taneb/shachaf conversation looks weird even if you read scrollback
21:23:50 <Taneb> ais523, this is #esoteric, it's practically weird by definition
21:23:54 <kmc> autonomous unicycle might be easier
21:24:09 <ais523> kmc: something I wanted to invent was a self-balancing unicycle
21:24:13 <ais523> that didn't require any skill from the rider
21:24:19 <fizzie> There was a "100 unicycle collision avoidance 2" video in youtube, but I can't tell what I'm looking at. It's just a bunch of wireframe circles.
21:24:21 <ais523> you could just sit on it motionless and it would stay upright
21:24:26 <Taneb> I still need to learn to ride the unicycle
21:24:48 <fizzie> (Also some actual unicycle robots.)
21:24:51 <boily> http://youtu.be/LdjY6oy4Y2c
21:25:24 <mroman> ais523: So... you wanted to invent a *boring* unicycle?
21:25:44 <ais523> mroman: well, the unicycle itself would be interesting; riding it would be boring, though
21:25:53 <fizzie> ais523: There was a video of that, actually.
21:26:08 <fizzie> ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT8F7fRV5fc I don't know if it's a real thing or not.
21:26:32 <fizzie> I guess you might have wanted something you still pedal.
21:26:45 <fizzie> That one's just basically a unicycle segway.
21:27:21 <ais523> nah, I think I prefer a unicycle segway
21:27:31 <ais523> btw, some engineers at Google tried to show me a Segway once but it wasn't working
21:27:59 <ais523> that one isn't nearly as tall as I wanted, though
21:28:29 <fizzie> There's also the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U3-X but that's pretty similar.
21:30:29 <fizzie> "An error has occurred while searching: Pool queue is full" I don't think Wikipedia search has given me that before.
21:31:12 <fizzie> "EcoBoomer Co., Ltd. Is A Leading Manufacturer Of Self-Balancing Electric Human Transporters, E-Bikes, & Electric Unicycles" fancy, a leading electric unicycle manufacturer.
21:31:39 <fizzie> "Joining the likes of the eniCycle, Solowheel and SBU, we now have the LED-light-strip-adorned EcoBoomer iGo."
21:31:44 <fizzie> There's like a whole pile of them.
21:31:46 <shachaf> Taneb: I can't tell whether I like jaffa cakes.
21:31:54 <shachaf> There's so much mystique surrounding them that it's difficult to tell.
21:32:27 <mroman> I'd want a self-balancing bike
21:32:41 <mroman> with two wheels and all
21:33:28 <mroman> although I'm not sure if you can steer with it then
21:33:55 <mroman> but it would be cool for like front breaks
21:34:02 <mroman> sort of like an ABS system for bikes
21:34:20 <Bike> inverse pendulums are quite something.
21:34:52 <fizzie> There was a self-balancing electric bike in the search results when I was looking for the unicycles.
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21:37:50 <kmc> i've wanted a solowheel for so long
21:37:55 <mroman> fizzie: Why do they think that a self balancing bike is useful?
21:38:00 <fizzie> "Some people would just say this is magic, but it's really gyroscopes."
21:38:19 <kmc> http://www.marriedtothesea.com/033107/gyroscopes.gif
21:38:25 <mroman> It practically really balances itself without any actual self-balancing stuff
21:38:28 <kmc> ecoboomer looks pretty stupid
21:38:42 <kmc> it looks like a rideable toilet
21:39:00 <fizzie> mroman: Well, it's not really a "bike", it's got thing you sit in and all. Basically, it's like taking a tiny car and trying to make it even smaller.
21:39:09 <fizzie> kmc: Perhaps they could integrate that functionality in.
21:39:16 <kmc> could even be a power source
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21:40:16 <Bike> "self-balancing electric transporters" i see i'm getting sidelined here :<
21:40:33 <Bike> http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/ecoboomer-igo-self-balancing-electric-unicycle-7.jpg wow, it /does/ look like a toilet.
21:40:45 <kmc> Bike: did you see the video of swarm quadcopters throwing inverted pendulums?
21:41:04 <kmc> "does it look like a toilet" should be on every consumer product design checklist
21:41:24 <kmc> but yeah those quadcopters were so cute
21:41:34 <kmc> the way they do a little dance to stabilize when they catch the pole
21:41:47 <kmc> and a 360° flip after they toss it
21:42:26 <LinearInterpol> http://nsnbc.me/2013/12/30/tepco-quietly-admits-reactor-3-melting-now/
21:43:46 <elliott> google "nsnbc" and tell me that's a legit news organisation
21:44:02 <elliott> okay the sources might be right
21:44:05 <fizzie> kmc: They also sounded like angry bees in at least the one video I saw.
21:44:07 <Bike> “Persons residing on the west coast of North America should IMMEDIATELY begin preparing for another possible onslaught of dangerous atmospheric radiation from the Fukushima nuclear disaster site in Japan.”
21:44:18 <kmc> yeah the steam is reported by other news orgs
21:44:20 <mroman> or one of those funky new domains?
21:44:33 <ais523> mroman: it's intended for personal websites, I think
21:44:37 <Bike> It's Montenegro.
21:45:06 <fizzie> All those countries with "good" ccTLDs must be p. happy they can repurpose them for whatever.
21:45:16 <kmc> apparently i'm supposed to cover every part of my house with plastic
21:45:21 <kmc> and "Wash obsessively"
21:45:25 <fizzie> Tonga, the country of URL shorteners (.to) and so on.
21:45:31 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Domainme.png
21:45:41 <elliott> can someone link me a non-stupid report on this :/
21:45:51 <Bike> this article is really bad.
21:45:54 <kmc> http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu-news/2013/1233248_5304.html
21:46:06 <kmc> http://gizmodo.com/radioactive-mystery-steam-over-fukushima-could-mean-ano-1492280971
21:46:25 <Vorpal> I got a 50% off Crusader Kings II Steam coupon thingy for some reason. Just showed up in my steam inventory just now if anyone is interested. I already own the game from some bundle or other.
21:46:53 <kmc> "[Tepco via The Ecologist via Fark]" i hate the future
21:47:00 <Bike> hm, i see "93 Bq/L" in here
21:48:20 <elliott> TEPCO will probably be stupid on the other end of the scale :V
21:48:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: They sometimes do a "give a X% off coupon for game A to everyone who owns game B"; I got a "random" 20% off Velocity Ultra for owning Stealth Bastard Deluxe.
21:48:23 <Vorpal> I also have two 20% off "Velocity Ultra", and two 10% off "Toki Tori 2". Not interested in either. Again, if anyone is interested in that or the Crusaders King II one...
21:48:32 <elliott> "widely apologize for the great inconvenience and worry Regarding that you have, I would like apologize from the bottom of my heart. "
21:48:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. I guess you might've owned Hotline Miami too?
21:49:03 <fizzie> (They gave another 20% off coupon for people owning that.)
21:50:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, so you are not interested in any of those?
21:51:13 <fizzie> Not really. I can't seem to manage to really play even the games I have. (Though I have been catching up over the holiday season.)
21:51:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can strongly recommend Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons if you haven't played it. My game of the year easily.
21:52:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, you do need a game pad though
21:52:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, would be nice if you could trade those coupons, like those silly trading cards and what not...
21:53:01 <fizzie> You can trade them, you just can't market them.
21:53:08 <Vorpal> Err, yeah that is what I meant
21:53:41 <Vorpal> How does one trade stuff btw? I see no button here for it
21:53:45 <fizzie> I think Steam forums have quite a lot of threads about people looking to trade their X% off coupons for something they actually want.
21:53:57 <fizzie> There's a "trade offers" button at top of the inventory.
21:54:05 <fizzie> You can make offers from there.
21:54:11 <Vorpal> Thing is, I currently don't want to buy anything
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21:54:46 <Vorpal> I have way too many unplayed games, plus I have some issues with my wrists (possibly carpal tunnel), meaning I keep gaming to a minimum
21:54:57 <fizzie> I traded one (1) Holiday Coal coal to one (1) Holiday Coal back when they were doing the coal thing, because you got something for having a trade.
21:55:22 <Vorpal> I never use the social features of steam really
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21:55:56 <fizzie> Also sold all the snow globe cards from community choice voting, because they'd evaporate soon, and I don't think I would've gotten the full set of 10 anyway.
21:56:21 <Vorpal> I have been "offline" in the friends menu since day one. Never played a multiplayer game through steam that actually used steam for it. (Unlike, say, Terraria, which afair did it like minecraft, just input the server IP)
21:57:01 <fizzie> I kind of like seeing the "X is now playing Y" notices from one of my many (5) Steam Friends. For no particular reason.
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21:57:16 <fizzie> They're all IRL friends, though. I guess it's some kind of stalking instinct.
21:58:00 <Vorpal> I don't have IRL friends who I play *computer* games with.
21:58:28 <fizzie> Oh, I don't play games with these people, as a general rule. I just like to see what they're up to.
21:58:43 <fizzie> (With a single exception of playing through the Portal 2 co-op thing with one of them.)
21:58:45 <Vorpal> Yeah, my friends list on steam is empty
21:59:00 <ais523> I don't even use Steam
21:59:27 <fizzie> Everyone on my friend list has more Steam XP than I do, I think.
21:59:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't really play much multiplayer at all... Minecraft, Terraria and FlightGear are the only ones I ever play(ed) multiplayer regularly in. A few other ones I tried a few times, but "meh"
22:00:01 <ais523> Steam have implemented an arbitrary number that you need to pay them money to increase?
22:00:17 <Vorpal> what the hell is steam xp
22:00:32 <fizzie> ais523: You don't need to pay money. Though I think some ways to increment the number involve money.
22:00:42 <fizzie> ais523: Mostly it's about using the community features, I think.
22:00:47 <ais523> fizzie: well you presumably need to play Steam games for most methods of increasing it
22:00:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's what determines your Steam Level.
22:01:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a number. See, it's like a RPG. You collect some exp, you gain levels.
22:01:26 <fizzie> Community choice voting requires a minimum Steam level, too.
22:01:30 <kmc> gamify gaming
22:01:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I completely missed that
22:01:37 <Bike> world aghast as for-profit gaming service implements for-profit games
22:01:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it? Oh well
22:01:53 <Vorpal> I don't give a shit though
22:02:30 <Vorpal> Huh there are achievements for steam itself? "Pillar of community, 13/26"
22:02:33 <fizzie> ais523: That's probably true, admittedly. But I don't think people buy games for the purpose of playing them because of the Steam XP, I guess.
22:02:36 <Vorpal> Or what the hell is this
22:02:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: They're for crafting "badges".
22:02:48 <ais523> fizzie: /someone/ probably does
22:02:55 <fizzie> I believe that's the main way of getting XP.
22:03:01 <ais523> there are people who buy xbox games just for easy achievements
22:03:10 <fizzie> The card drops are tied into that, too.
22:03:14 <ais523> and people who make games specifically so that those people will buy them
22:03:19 <Bike> consumers gonna consume
22:03:23 <fizzie> (When you get a full set, you can craft a badge, and that nets some XP.)
22:03:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems I have some of those. Oh well, don't really care
22:04:12 <fizzie> I seem to have 16/26 of the Pillar of Community tasks done.
22:04:17 <Vorpal> I hate achievements. Usually it is either just "got to point x in story" or it is like "did stupid thing that doesn't make sense in the plot of the game"
22:04:45 <ais523> I think the latter sort of achievement makes sense, so long as you view it as an optional goal to aim for when you're aware of what it is
22:04:55 <ais523> rather than as something you're meant to get in normal play
22:05:08 <Vorpal> I'm sure there are exceptions, but I can't think of any. Possibly with the exception of The Stanley Parable. Where the achievements pokes fun at achievements
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22:06:03 <fizzie> I think I could do most of these missing tasks, there's things like "set a profile background".
22:06:15 <fizzie> "Use a Steam Emoticon in chat" I'd do that, but I don't know how.
22:06:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, would you do it just for a badge?
22:06:33 <elliott> http://esolang-book.route477.net/ https://github.com/yhara/esolang-book-website
22:07:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know. I guess I might? I do have a mild case of "can't help myself" when it comes to achievement-y things.
22:07:44 <fizzie> Though I think it might make more sense to make those badges tie to e.g. completing all achievements in the game; then they'd at least have something to do with the game in question.
22:08:19 <Vorpal> ais523, I think doing a silly thing like riding a horse up a near vertical cliff in skyrim is a reward in and of itself, due to the induced laughing from the glitching horse (also that specific one has no achivement afaik, it was just an example of a silly thing)
22:08:24 <ais523> fizzie: many games are near-impossible to get all the achievements in
22:08:33 <elliott> Bike: I thought the existence of a physical esolangs book might interest.
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22:08:57 <ais523> elliott: is it just one of those books that's autogenerated from Wikipedia in the hope that someone buys it?
22:09:04 <ais523> or did someone actually write it?
22:09:08 <Vorpal> ais523, I guess I could see the point of things like "ghosted the entire Deux Ex" or some achievement like that, awarded at the end of the game
22:09:17 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, well, that's why they could make some kind of a reward for it. Currently Steam just says something like "good job", and that's it.
22:09:25 <elliott> no. translation services exist that can answer such questions equally well but more efficiently than I can
22:09:32 <elliott> I would say "Google Translate" but I suspect you have a moral objection to using it..
22:09:43 <Vorpal> ais523, that is genuine bragging rights to some degree. Most achivements are not.
22:10:05 <elliott> the new edition is coming out on the 7th, seemingly
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22:10:10 <Bike_> watching #esoteric complain about a formalization of doing weird things in games is amusing
22:10:13 <ais523> elliott: I asked the question before I followed the link
22:10:15 <fizzie> Ohhh! "Steam Emoticons" are not the regular emoticons you can use.
22:10:35 <fizzie> "Emoticons are dropped when crafting trading cards and are tradable."
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22:10:48 <fizzie> Apparently you have to get an emoticon drop before you can use it in a conversation.
22:10:50 <Vorpal> sorry for the language... but...
22:10:58 <fizzie> I don't know if it's a one-time-use or if you "unlock" it for all time.
22:11:07 <ais523> `addquote <fizzie> "Emoticons are dropped when crafting trading cards and are tradable."
22:11:10 <fizzie> It is kind of hilarious.
22:11:11 <HackEgo> 1154) <fizzie> "Emoticons are dropped when crafting trading cards and are tradable."
22:11:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is like a bad TCG
22:11:38 <ais523> I don't know of a TCG where the cards are craftable
22:11:41 <Vorpal> It doesn't have any gameplay *except* from getting the card
22:11:45 <fizzie> "Emoticons are little symbols or pictures given to a user once they have crafted a badge. Emoticons are used in Steam Chat, either by typing the shortcut to that emoticon (which is surrounded by colons - for example, :crate: for the Team Fortress 2 crate emoticon), or by selecting the image from the selection box of emoticons.
22:11:50 <fizzie> A few basic emoticons are included in Steam that everyone can access, but most are only available if you own the emoticon (which is an item stored in your Steam inventory.) Anyone can see an emoticon that you've used in a message to them even if they don't own the emoticon themselves.
22:11:55 <fizzie> Emoticons come in 3 rarities: common, uncommon and rare. You can receive an emoticon of any rarity when you craft a badge, but the higher the level of badge that you craft, the greater the chances that you'll receive an uncommon or rare badge."
22:11:58 <Vorpal> ais523, you can craft by destroying enough other cards to get dust or something like that
22:11:59 <fizzie> There's even three levels of rarities.
22:12:08 <Vorpal> ais523, wouldn't work in a non-digital TCG of course
22:12:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, very much TCG mechanics
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22:14:00 <fizzie> I don't have the "make a trade" task marked as done, I must've done that coal-for-coal thing before the badges were a thing.
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22:14:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems I got some cards from playing garry's mod at some point.
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22:15:08 <Vorpal> Is that separate from crafting?
22:15:21 <Vorpal> How *do* you craft on steam
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22:15:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: You get a couple (three, four?) for pretty much any card-enabled game just by playing it.
22:15:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, also it says I have the pillar of community thing but it also says it isn't completed on another page
22:15:57 <fizzie> Or, rather, you're eligible for that many initially, and they drop pretty quickly; if you spend a couple of hours in-game, you'll probably get all those.
22:15:57 <Vorpal> not sure how that works
22:16:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's different levels of Pillar of Community.
22:16:41 <fizzie> X out of 26 for level 1 (I've got that too); 22 of 26 for level 2; presumably 26/26 for level 3 or something.
22:16:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, nah it says "Complete 14 of 26 Steam Community tasks to earn the Level 1 badge." and I have 13
22:16:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe they added more stuff in later?
22:17:17 <fizzie> Are you sure you have it? Incomplete ones are also listed on the "badges" page.
22:17:18 <Vorpal> And I had enough earlier
22:17:31 <Vorpal> I went to Badges and clicked "completed"
22:17:32 <fizzie> That could also be the case.
22:17:41 <Vorpal> Surely that would only list completed ones
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22:18:01 <fizzie> I guess they might've been adding more tasks.
22:18:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't say when I unlocked it, or what level it is at
22:18:35 <fizzie> It says "Unlocked: 14 Nov, 2013 @ 12:25am" for my level 1 in the "completed" list.
22:18:52 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't explicitly say "level 1" anywhere, just that I need to do 22/26 for level 2.
22:18:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I would have gotten it way earlier than this year if I unlocked it
22:19:05 <Vorpal> haven't done much on steam the last year or so
22:19:58 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't really know how you get more cards than the ones you're initially eligible for. AIUI, you'll get "booster packs" (another TCG term there) randomly, as soon as you keep logging in to Steam, but I don't think I've ever gotten one.
22:20:27 <fizzie> I think in general to actually craft badges you're supposed to trade cards you don't want, or something.
22:20:40 <fizzie> Or perhaps (more likely) buy them on the market, because Valve gets a cut.
22:20:41 -!- iamcal has joined.
22:21:03 <fizzie> They're all selling for something like 0.04-0.10€/card.
22:21:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is pretty terrible. Yet people seem to want to do it, since I sold the stuff I got when voting on the sale this time around, and most got sold within half an hour
22:21:42 <ais523> the fact that this business model is even viable hurts my head
22:21:50 <fizzie> The number of random booster packs generated depends on the number of badges crafted, and I guess I don't really pay "popular" games.
22:22:15 <Vorpal> ais523, well I doubt it would stand on it's own. They sell the games too. That is probably a much larger income source than people trading cards.
22:22:18 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think they've released any statistics, but I suppose it's all just extra icing on top of their "actual business" of selling games.
22:23:06 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:23:08 <fizzie> "Summing up all the sales data resulted in stunning numbers that I want to share with you: In the past year (since dec'12) there was a trade volume of ~$38.9 million shared on ~58.0 million transactions. Valve gets 15% of each market sale, so nearly $6 million for doing nothing but letting steam users sell millions of items."
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22:23:28 <Vorpal> Holy crap, there are 19 DLC for Saints Row 4 already. That game isn't all that old
22:23:29 <fizzie> Well, I guess that's a reasonably large number.
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22:23:50 <Vorpal> Totalling, *when on 60% sale* 31.02 EUR
22:24:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hey, that's nothing compared to TS2014 DLC or something.
22:24:28 <Vorpal> TrainSimulator I *expect* that sort of thing from
22:24:50 <fizzie> 2379.53 EUR for all TS2014 DLC.
22:24:58 <fizzie> (Wonder how many people have bought all of it.)
22:25:02 -!- typeclassy_ has joined.
22:25:05 <Vorpal> I much preferred the model of base game followed half a year or more down the line with a big expansion pack
22:25:07 -!- HaliteTablet has joined.
22:25:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, very few I hope
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22:25:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would guess that most people just get the couple of trains they are really interested in and so on
22:26:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a "Not Recommended | 1,423.0 hrs on record" review on the TS2014 store page; most comments are to the tune of "didn't like but played over a thousand hours???". (It's from someone who dislikes the new upgrade; Steam counts playtime of older versions in there.)
22:27:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, well normally I would say that person is well qualified to give an opinion
22:27:19 <Vorpal> Unlike the guy who played 5 minutes
22:27:25 -!- iamcal has joined.
22:27:42 <Vorpal> Probably over-qualified even
22:29:00 <Vorpal> This game (got from some recent indie bundle) has a terrible name in my steam game list: "AaaaaAAaaaAAAaaAAAAaAAAAA!!! for the Awesome"
22:29:02 <fizzie> I guess two kiloeuros isn't very much money to put in a hobby in the end, anyway; people sure waste a lot more than that.
22:29:34 <fizzie> I've got Aaaa[...] too; it was in the most recent "PC and Android" bundle I bought mostly for Gemini Rue, Little Inferno and maybe Bard's Tale.
22:29:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yeah, if you get into photography you can easily top that
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22:30:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I got Bard's Tale from some earlier bundle iirc. Kind of funny I guess, but that humor doesn't really click with me. Too childish a lot of the time
22:30:59 <elliott> welp, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ruby%E3%81%A7%E4%BD%9C%E3%82%8B%E5%A5%87%E5%A6%99%E3%81%AA%E3%83%97%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B0%E3%83%A9%E3%83%9F%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E8%A8%80%E8%AA%9E
22:31:14 <elliott> come on Chrome, did you really have to escape that whole thing? :/
22:31:34 <Vorpal> elliott, heh my font fails at that on the page. Works in the title bar though
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22:31:54 <Vorpal> I thought it was supposed to fall back to another font if it failed to find the glyph??
22:32:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, it didn't really impress very much so far.
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22:32:27 <elliott> the book is only $27 if you preorder it, by the way!
22:32:37 <elliott> ...plus shipping from Japan
22:32:46 <elliott> you can also buy a PDF if you are boring
22:32:58 <Vorpal> elliott, not free shipping?
22:33:19 <elliott> from Japan? I kind of doubt it.
22:33:30 <shachaf> i ordered something from japan once
22:33:44 <Vorpal> shachaf, were you expecting that?
22:33:53 <shachaf> but i still couldn't read it
22:34:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, apparently a 10% of all Steam market trading card sales goes to the game developer, and only 5% to Valve (forming the 15% cut that doesn't go to the seller).
22:34:14 -!- ggherdov has joined.
22:34:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, IIRC google translate has some sort of OCR mode in the android app for it
22:34:24 -!- AwfulProgrammer_ has joined.
22:34:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, except for the sale cards, which go all to steam I expect?
22:34:58 <monotone> Google Translate's performance on Japanese itself isn't that great to begin with...
22:35:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, I guess Valve counts as the "developer" of the holiday sale.
22:35:50 -!- CADD has joined.
22:36:07 <Vorpal> monotone, Norwegian -> Swedish (which should be fairly easily you think, since the languages are quite closely related) was pretty bad. It kept inserting negations in random sentences, changing the meaning completely of the text.
22:36:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: But at least the developers get something out of it too. (Though maybe that's just an incentive to put trading card support in their game. Though I guess Valve might give them other incentives too.)
22:36:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: It probably goes Norwegian -> English -> Swedish for that.
22:37:11 <fizzie> Chinese-to-English tends to be quite bad too.
22:37:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, the support consists of creating some cards and dropping them when a play time counter reached a certain value?
22:37:30 <Taneb> Anything -> Latin is awful
22:37:38 <monotone> Yeah, a lot of machine translation systems use English as an intermediate language.
22:38:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly only the former; the latter might well be a built-in feature of the Steam overlay.
22:38:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, But I have the overlay turned off, and I still got some cards
22:38:46 <fizzie> Well, the Steam client, then. It knows when you're in-game, anyway.
22:39:11 <fizzie> The card images probably come from the game developers, at least.
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22:39:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm that would be interesting for skyrim. I usually launch that with the script extended thingy instead, SKSE
22:39:23 <Vorpal> Don't think steam is 100% aware of that
22:39:40 <Vorpal> I really do not like the overlay. I do not want to see achivements pop up in the corner and breaking my immersion in games where immersion is a key factor
22:39:42 <fizzie> I get the Steam overlay even when launching via NMM + SKSE.
22:40:00 -!- HaliteTablet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:40:04 <fizzie> (I don't really know how it all works.)
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22:40:20 <Vorpal> yeah I guess steam *does* need to be running for it to work so yeah
22:40:32 <fizzie> Part of that DRM and all.
22:40:35 -!- AwfulProgrammer_ has joined.
22:40:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I preferred the oblivion way: Have the CD mounted.
22:41:08 <Vorpal> Of course for convenience you just use an image file and mount it as a CD
22:41:23 <Vorpal> So that is easily bypassed
22:41:45 <fizzie> Wonder if I should sell my Skyrim trading cards, it's not like I'll ever be completing any of these sets.
22:42:28 <Vorpal> Yeah I try to buy games on gog.com instead. Much better customer service, DRM free, and usually include at least some extras such as extra printed materials or sound track as well
22:42:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, I should probably sell all my trading cards. All 5.
22:42:52 -!- _46bit_ has joined.
22:43:03 <fizzie> Some of them sell for really little.
22:43:09 <fizzie> (Incidentally, do you happen to know if you can use Steam Wallet money to deduct from the price of a regular Steam purchase?)
22:43:19 <Vorpal> 0.05 EUR for one of the garry's mod ones
22:43:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah it happens automatically
22:43:57 <fizzie> Good. Though I guess it might take quite a while before I buy something again in Steam.
22:44:31 <Vorpal> Wow, 0.04 EUR for one of the cards from the summer holiday sale. Seems those are still valid though unlike the cards for this sale, which will soon be invalid. Hm
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22:44:55 <fizzie> I seem to have 19 trading cards (4x Deponia, 4x McPixel, 4x Scribblenauts, 3x Super Meat Boy, 4x Skyrim).
22:45:00 -!- AwfulProgrammer_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:45:14 <fizzie> Assuming an average of 0.05 EUR, that'd mean... almost a whole euro!
22:45:31 <Vorpal> I have 5 from playing games, and 7 from the summer sale
22:45:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, the game ones I have are worth a bit more
22:46:00 <Vorpal> The portal 2 one 0.1 EUR
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22:46:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, The "missing textures" one from GM looks pretty nice though. Pink and black chess board pattern
22:46:59 <Vorpal> It sticks out like a sore thumb in the steam inventory
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22:48:07 <fizzie> Well, Deponia cards sell for 0.10 EUR, McPixel for 0.03-0.05 EUR, Scribblenauts for 0.05-0.06 EUR, Super Meat Boy for... ooh, 0.13 EUR (!), and Skyrim for 0.11-0.12 EUR or so.
22:48:21 -!- typeclassy_ has joined.
22:48:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you have to trade something in both directions for a trade?
22:48:54 <fizzie> So I might get up to 1.5 EUR from selling all of them. Even better. I'll be swimming in virtual money soon.
22:48:59 <Vorpal> If I want to get rid of the coupons
22:49:07 <Vorpal> I just want to give them away really
22:49:13 <fizzie> I think you can do a unidirectional trade, but not sure.
22:49:33 <kmc> when I try to use Google Translate to find out what the Japanese cat cafés are saying, it's always nonsense
22:49:35 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:49:42 <kmc> maybe they use too many cat puns though
22:50:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though I don't know, because giftability is a separately tracked thing, and a unidirectional trade is pretty close to a gift. (Without the gift-y trappings, though.)
22:50:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, what trappings?
22:50:42 <kmc> gif-ability
22:50:45 <shachaf> i think that is not japanese but cat
22:50:47 <kmc> they're nya-ing at least
22:50:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think you can send it as a fancy email message or something?
22:50:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know, I've never gotten a Steam gift.
22:51:32 <fizzie> kmc: When I try to use GT to find out what my (Finnish) friend is saying (in Chinese, at his Weibo microblog), it's quite often nonsense too.
22:51:51 <shachaf> kmc: have you considered being a cat when you grow up
22:51:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, the price for the summer sale trading cards all went up marginally around the start of the current sale.
22:51:58 <kmc> shachaf: yes
22:52:09 <kmc> shachaf: i tried the Necomimi mind-reading motorized cat ears
22:52:10 <Vorpal> A couple of cents mostly
22:53:59 <fizzie> Huh, my Deponia card sold immediately.
22:54:12 <fizzie> It's all very bizarre.
22:54:16 -!- upgrayeddd has joined.
22:54:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, wow that was quick. I put up those 5 game cards for sale like 4 minutes ago. They are all sold already
22:54:39 -!- typeclassy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:54:42 <fizzie> I guess people are buying them?
22:55:16 <Vorpal> Maybe I should put them up for a bit more than the market value next time and see if I get lucky with it being the cheapest at the point of sale by chance
22:55:41 <fizzie> I don't know what kind of benefits you get from a high Steam Level.
22:56:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, you said voting on community thingy before?
22:56:09 -!- typeclassy_ has joined.
22:56:15 <fizzie> There's that, but there's probably something else too.
22:56:23 <fizzie> I know you can "pimp" your profile more, the higher your level is.
22:56:33 <elliott> Vorpal: weren't you just mocking the idea of doing this kinda thing before
22:56:46 <fizzie> Showcase (more) badges, make a custom info box, that kind of stuff.
22:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm mocking the idea of buying this stuff. But if I get cards for just playing games I want to play, of course I'm going to sell them, since I do not say no to money
22:57:41 <Vorpal> Well, legal money that is
22:57:48 <fizzie> "What are the direct benefits of my Steam Level? You get more options to customize your profile, and the maximum number of friends you can have on your friends list increases."
22:57:55 -!- ggherdov has joined.
22:58:00 <elliott> I don't think you would do anything that gives you money just because it's legal
22:58:01 <fizzie> "Once you reach Steam Level 10 you can pick and customize a showcase from the profile edit page. Each 10 Steam Levels earns you an extra showcase, i.e. two showcases at Level 20, three showcases at Level 30, etc."
22:58:09 <elliott> if you would then you're dangerous
22:58:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well no, but this require no effort at all.
22:58:23 <Vorpal> And doesn't hurt anyone
22:58:36 <Vorpal> Except possibly those stupid enough to spend money on this stuff
22:58:44 <elliott> arguable, it hurts people sucked into buying these things for various psychological reasons
22:59:28 <elliott> if you ascribe addiction to gambling type things to stupidity then you have a rather shallow understanding :/
23:00:06 <Vorpal> I'm not sure these people are addicted to gambling, since they can clearly see which card and what it costs.
23:00:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, turns out you can't do the "set profile background" task of the Pillar of Community by just, you know, uploading a background image. No, you have to get a background image drop from crafting a badge. Then you can set it as your background profile, or trade/sell it away.
23:00:14 <Vorpal> "If you gather another complete set of trading cards for the same game you can upgrade that game badge. You can craft a set for the same game at most five times. Each time you upgrade the game badge you'll get an extra 100XP, as well as upgrading the image and title of the badge." <-- jesus crist
23:00:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I guess they want to avoid penises and such
23:00:48 <fizzie> I think you're also likelier to get rare drops from higher-level badges.
23:00:50 <elliott> Vorpal: "gambling type things"
23:00:50 -!- typeclassy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> am i going to have to manually set prices for every card i own
23:00:53 -!- Guest7487 has joined.
23:00:54 -!- Guest7487 has changed nick to _46bit.
23:01:00 <elliott> if you think a lot of these trading type systems aren't designed to exploit people then ...
23:01:18 -!- AwfulProgrammer_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:01:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes you need to sell them one by one from what I can tell
23:01:23 -!- _46bit has changed nick to Guest65919.
23:01:30 <Vorpal> if you own a lot that would be annoying yes
23:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott, oh yes they are
23:01:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can probably already get penises in via screenshot upload feature and versatile-enough games, but I guess there's that.
23:02:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, well as long as garry's mod exists yes
23:02:12 -!- LinearInterpol has joined.
23:02:27 <Vorpal> Or any moddable game for that matter
23:02:38 <elliott> Vorpal: and you see nothing unethical about exploitation?
23:02:48 <elliott> because you decided they're stupider than you...?
23:03:09 <Vorpal> elliott, steam doing it. Me just clearing out my inventory of 5 cards for a total of 0.26 EUR, not so much.
23:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, except he's not exploiting anyone; steam are, he's just mildly complicit (and you're already complicit by using steam at all)
23:03:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good summary yes
23:03:45 -!- ggherdov has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:04:38 <Vorpal> Yes in a sense I guess I'm allowing this to happen to a very slightly larger degree by selling my selling my cards. On the other hand, the price will be lowered by people flooding the market, meaning these addicted people will have to spend less money
23:04:53 -!- AwfulProgrammer_ has joined.
23:05:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is that second point not valid?
23:05:24 <Vorpal> If very few people sold cards the price would rise instead.
23:05:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sure, there are degrees of complicitness though. anyway, I wasn't actually trying to say what he did was immoral
23:05:52 <elliott> just that the justification "I don't say no to money" is nonsense
23:06:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I realized right after I said that, that it was badly worded
23:07:05 <Vorpal> Also they do *foiled* trading cards? For digital only cards? Really?
23:07:55 <fizzie> I guess they have a shinier graphic?
23:07:58 <fizzie> I haven't seen one ever.
23:08:05 <Vorpal> Why couldn't steam let you play a game with the trading cards, like MTG or Hearthstone does. Instead of just trading the cards...
23:08:20 <fizzie> (Also I hadn't realized the maximum number of friends is based on Steam Level.)
23:08:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, are you anywhere near the limit though?
23:09:46 <shachaf> it's not just maximum number of steam friends
23:09:54 <shachaf> it's the maximum number of actual friends you can have
23:09:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know, I'm not sure where the limit is listed.
23:09:59 <shachaf> this steam business is important
23:10:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: I doubt it's "5", though.
23:10:28 <fizzie> Ah, "Friends: 5 / 330".
23:10:38 <fizzie> Seems I'm not quite in danger of running out of slots, then.
23:11:41 <Vorpal> Hm I have a badge called "Power Player". Seems it is based on how many games I own since it says "248 games owned" in the description. It also has the icon of the text "100+". I think I bought around 15-20 games directly on steam though. The rest is all indie bundles.
23:12:18 <Vorpal> That is a hell of a lot of games...
23:12:30 <Vorpal> Most of them are probably bad too
23:12:47 <Vorpal> Or I'm at least no interested in most of them
23:12:53 <fizzie> I have the "Collection Agent" (same, but 50+) badge.
23:13:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, interestingly I get 497 XP from that badge. What a weird number
23:13:49 <fizzie> games*2+1? Kind of curious.
23:14:13 <fizzie> Wow, a friend of mine has a Snow Globe 2013 *foil* badge.
23:14:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the difference?
23:14:43 <Vorpal> Also there is quite a lot of linux games on steam these days
23:14:43 <fizzie> The icon is all silvery.
23:15:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, you only need two more games for the Game Mechanic (250+) badge.
23:15:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, I guess the next indie bundle which I want like 1-2 games from will provide that
23:16:15 <Vorpal> speaking of indie bundle, wasn't there a new humble weekly one now?
23:16:43 <Vorpal> Ah point and clicks. And I own all but one
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23:16:58 <Vorpal> And I don't care about Shelter
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23:17:31 <Vorpal> Wait, I don't own Lume either. Hm *checks out the video*
23:18:39 <fizzie> I quite liked Botanicula and Machinarium.
23:18:51 <fizzie> But I've already got both of those.
23:18:52 <Bike> machinarium is great
23:20:09 <Vorpal> Bike, if you liked machinarium, give Botanicula a try. Same developer. Same feeling to it.
23:20:25 <fizzie> But it's all bio and not robo.
23:21:47 <Vorpal> Also don't try to play Machinarium on a Nexus 10 tablet. It really isn't made for such a high DPI screen and it uses pixel based graphics.
23:22:12 <Vorpal> Almost as bad as Avadon on the Nexus 10.
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23:22:34 <myname> does botanicula run on android?
23:22:49 <Vorpal> according to the platform list on humble bundle
23:23:08 <Vorpal> As much as I like Spiderweb Software and as much as I love all the games they (well he, one guy iirc) made; the android port is unplayable
23:23:11 <int-e> win / mac / linux / steam. nope.
23:23:40 <Vorpal> I guess you can't say monitor about a tablet
23:23:58 <Vorpal> Also lume doesn't look that interesting
23:24:37 <int-e> well machinarium is the only game on that list that I've already played ...
23:25:17 <fizzie> Machinarium and Botanicula both don't have Linux support in their Steam editions, which is a bit of a shame.
23:25:24 <Vorpal> int-e, Botanicula is well worth $6 alone. Samorost and Windowsill aren't really worth much IMO. Lume and Shelter I never played
23:26:09 <fizzie> I'd like for Botanicula to have some sort of a "have not yet collected all creature cards" indicator before progressing through points of no return.
23:26:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I prefer to not use steam most of the time. I do redeem my bundled games on steam though as an insurance should humble bundle go under.
23:26:20 <Bike> mmm i'll probably buy that later
23:26:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would much prefer redeeming on gog or even desura though. You used to get desura codes in the early bundles, but it has been a while since I have seen that
23:27:25 <fizzie> Perhaps Valve made them an offer they couldn't refuse.
23:27:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, the cards didn't have any functional use though did they? Looked nice yes, but no function iirc?
23:27:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, desura also started their own bundle, indieroyale or something like that iirc
23:28:12 <fizzie> There's one to three "presents" you get at the end that depends on the number of cards you got.
23:28:14 <int-e> Vorpal: I spent $10, too lazy to enter a custom amount ;)
23:28:25 <fizzie> I wandered around quite a lot, but still missed several.
23:28:26 <Vorpal> Generally pretty crappy games on indieroyale the times I checked iirc
23:28:59 <Vorpal> int-e, heh, well botanicula is worth that alone I would say
23:29:17 <fizzie> Of course the presents don't really have a "function" either, I believe; at least the one (or two? can't remember) I got was just nice little animation.
23:29:27 <fizzie> Then again, looking at nice things is pretty much what the whole game is all about.
23:29:44 <fizzie> Preferrably things that go "whee".
23:30:35 <Vorpal> I don't remember how many cards I got
23:31:22 <fizzie> I started a new playthrough where I tried to click on absolutely everything, and got it to the ground, but I'm a bit afraid I missed something small this time around too.
23:31:52 <fizzie> Perhaps I should just look up the number of cards you're supposed to have at the end of each "chapter" from the web.
23:31:59 <fizzie> (I'm sure someone's counted.)
23:32:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think I got a fair amount of them, since I do tend to click on everything in that type of game
23:33:03 <fizzie> Well, I do too, but I still managed to miss some, somehow.
23:33:39 <fizzie> The bit where you drop waters and set the "cups" to determine where it goes, did you do all the possible sprouty things?
23:33:46 <Vorpal> I don't remember if I got all
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23:34:25 <fizzie> (You only need to make the middle bit sprout, but there's a special scene and an associated creature card if you do all.)
23:34:27 <impomatic> Everything is deeply intertwingled...
23:34:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, I played it around launch, haven't played it since. Don't even remember that part
23:35:16 <fizzie> Honestly, I probably wouldn't remember either, except for that quasi-recent replay.
23:37:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, that "Jack Lumber" game in the some recent humble bundle. Has some quite funny humor, better than Bard's Tale humor at least. Not a fan of the game play though
23:37:40 <Vorpal> Pretty absurd game, with a really absurd back story
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23:37:56 <kmc> i forgot to play zzo38's game :(
23:37:59 <kmc> maybe i will remember later
23:38:58 <shachaf> Professional Octopus of the World?
23:39:09 <Vorpal> kmc, Or do it now. Or you could do it later. If you want to. But you don't have to, if you don't want to.
23:39:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: I seem to have it.
23:39:44 <zzo38> Do you mean Attribute Zone?
23:39:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah worth playing for a bit on the tablet I guess.
23:40:00 <zzo38> Currently it has only two levels, so it isn't good enough yet, but there are many other games in the same package.
23:40:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, definitely a mobile game level of game play in that
23:43:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, somewhat amusing: I recently(ish) Steam-activated all my bundle games, then installed Thomas Was Alone on Linux via Steam. I had been playing the directly-downloaded Linux version before, so it managed to dug up my existing (near-the-ending) save from somewhere (presumably $HOME), but then also "achievified" all the achievements (something like 30) I had unknowingly gotten so far, ...
23:43:16 <fizzie> ... all at the same time.
23:43:18 <fizzie> Quite the flood of pop-ups.
23:44:00 <fizzie> (It's one of those games where you get a lot of Steam achievements simply by playing it normally.)
23:45:16 <fizzie> After Super Meat Boy, the controls felt decidedly clunky, though.
23:46:05 <fizzie> (Might have been partially a gamepad/keyboard difference too.)
23:46:59 <Vorpal> I'm not generally a fan of platformers, but the story in Thomas was alone is brilliant
23:56:23 <fizzie> Slightly more on-topically, they could put more esolangs in games. (Certain to have mass-market appeal, I'm sure.) SpaceChem is the only thing I can think of offhand that kind of is one.
23:56:51 <kmc> spacechem meets spaceteam
23:57:22 <fizzie> kmc: Is this some kind of #spascedrugz reference?
23:57:39 <kmc> probably not?
23:57:57 <kmc> we did use "space drugs" as a term for experimental psychedelics
23:58:18 <zzo38> Yes, make up a chess variant involving INTERCAL somehow
00:00:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seem to remember that open source game where you guide a black ball around a maze having a level based on brainfuck
00:00:58 <Vorpal> Can't remember the name of the game
00:00:58 <fizzie> Robozzle is also kind of like an esolang, but it's not exactly a "mainstream" game.
00:01:48 <kmc> which actual fuck myname?
00:01:53 <myname> i especially like that there is an android port
00:02:10 <myname> kmc: i'm just not used to zzo yet
00:02:59 <ais523> http://enigma-game.org
00:03:01 <zzo38> I have made up a similar game to Robozzle too but there isn't enough levels yet
00:03:17 <ais523> I've developed levels for it, that are actually in the official released versions (not just modding)
00:03:22 <myname> zzo38: define "similar"
00:03:24 <ais523> perhaps the most infamous one is a backwards Sokoban
00:03:34 <ais523> where you're given an empty room where you can build walls and place boxes
00:03:39 <ais523> and the level solves it and then tells you it was too easy
00:03:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:03:54 <ais523> or alternatively, if it's impossible, makes you go solve it yourself (you can't)
00:04:25 <fizzie> There's an Android port of SpaceChem too, sadly not automatically available if you have the computer version. (Didn't really do the "post-game" content, might on the tablet.)
00:04:53 <Taneb> I wasn't much good at SpaceChem
00:05:30 <fizzie> I was barely good enough to get through it.
00:05:49 <zzo38> myname: You have set of commands available (which can differ per level), and rows of programming you can fill in, and have to catch all of the diamonds before the program stops. There can be diamonds in places where there is no floor; you can step there safely but then cannot step there a second time unless the hole is filled in. If there is a "$" then you must catch that one last, otherwise you lose.
00:05:55 <Vorpal> I found it pretty boring, so I didn't play more than maybe two worlds of it
00:06:07 <Vorpal> At that point at least it wasn't really hard.
00:06:14 <fizzie> It quite resembles an arbitrarily constrained Befunge, though.
00:06:19 <Vorpal> I just found it monotonous
00:06:37 <myname> fizzie: i stumbled upon a game based on an esolang recently
00:06:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, and I suspect it isn't TC?
00:06:48 <zzo38> myname: Does this description explain it?
00:07:16 <myname> zzo38: sounds like a slightly modified robozzle
00:07:32 <myname> there should be more interesting commands available!
00:07:47 <zzo38> myname: Yes, although the engine is entirely rewritten, in QBASIC.
00:07:53 <myname> Phantom__Hoover: tbh, i don't like most of them
00:07:59 <zzo38> And more commands can be added if you have an idea what to add!
00:08:01 <myname> i really like the idea
00:08:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm pretty sure it has finite state, yes.
00:08:36 <Phantom__Hoover> fizzie, you have those production line things though, you could extend them to be infinite queus
00:08:53 <myname> zzo38: why qbasic? i used that when i was like 12 years old
00:09:16 <kmc> i should figure out how to wrap up my "x86 is turing complete with no registers" post
00:09:37 <fizzie> And that's true. They have a finite maximum capacity as implemented, though.
00:09:52 <kmc> well wait and read the article
00:09:52 <myname> i'd love something like an ncurses game engine for android
00:09:54 <zzo38> myname: I write in a computer that is the only compiler, the QBASIC compiler. Also, QBASIC is not bad for writing these kind of computer games actually.
00:10:00 <kmc> it has finite storage though, but so does x86 itself, or C
00:10:04 <Vorpal> kmc, With infinite ram I assume, but there is not an infinite address space
00:10:25 <Vorpal> kmc, then it really isn't TC. And nor is C indeed
00:10:39 <kmc> justifying this is the last part of the article I need to write
00:10:57 <Vorpal> Justifying a false claim?
00:11:12 <fizzie> kmc: Just call it something else, perhaps.
00:11:14 <shachaf> did you know that comonads are just cofree comonad comonad comonad coalgebras
00:11:16 <ais523> just because something is false doesn't make it unjustifiable
00:11:21 <kmc> justifying that a brainfuck implementation with a fixed sized tape meets the informal definition of "turing complete" that programmers use
00:11:28 <Vorpal> kmc, Anyway, I would say that proving it is a bounded storage machine without registers is pretty cool too
00:11:35 <ais523> you can come up with plenty of plausible reasons why something was likely to happen, even if it didn't
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00:11:51 <kmc> i mean e.g. there's a famous paper titled "mov is Turing-complete" about x86 with the mov instruction, and this would seem to have the same issue
00:11:56 <kmc> with only the mov instruction, i mean :)
00:12:13 <kmc> that's right
00:12:18 <kmc> they have one unconditional jump
00:12:25 <ais523> can't you just cycle round the entirety of memory?
00:12:31 <ais523> actually, if you keep going long enough
00:12:39 <Vorpal> cmov yes, but mov? Wow
00:12:43 <ais523> you'll end up activating the A20 line trying to decode the next address
00:12:47 <kmc> yeah, read the paper
00:12:48 <ais523> and I guess you could activate it with mov too
00:12:48 <shachaf> well, x86 mov is quite versatile
00:12:52 <ais523> so you could reboot the system
00:12:55 <Vorpal> ais523, only in real mode surely?
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00:13:10 <Vorpal> ais523, shouldn't happen in protected or long mode
00:13:12 <ais523> I guess the next question is, is lea Turing complete?
00:13:13 <fizzie> I didn't like how the mov+jmp one "halts" with an invalid memory access.
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00:13:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I learned from 8086 manuals
00:13:33 <kmc> lea can't access memory can it?
00:13:36 <Taneb> Wasn't there one that uses page-fault errors?
00:13:38 <Vorpal> ais523, kiiind of outdated these days
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00:13:44 <ais523> literally, I got a book out of the library that covered mostly DOS 1 and DOS 2
00:13:46 <int-e> why would that reboot the system?
00:13:47 <ais523> with some mentiones of DOS 3
00:13:52 <kmc> Taneb: yes, computing using only the MMU as it handles a never-ending double fault
00:14:06 <kmc> http://events.ccc.de/congress/2012/Fahrplan/events/5265.en.html
00:14:09 <ais523> int-e: it was an awful hack, basically they needed a way to restart the processor to be able to get back into real mode
00:14:30 <ais523> so they connected one of the address lines to the keyboard controller, which was connected in turn to the reset input of the processor
00:14:53 <int-e> ais523: the keyboard controller did that. the a20 line is a hack to make the system actually wrap around memory above 1MB, to be 8086 compatible.
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00:15:05 <kmc> right, it's not for rebooting
00:15:16 <Vorpal> ais523, I remember looking in an old computer book, that said that the newly released Pentium series was mostly for high end workstations and would never have a mass market appeal
00:15:19 <ais523> int-e: I suddenly realised I was muddling two things together
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00:15:36 <Vorpal> Or it might have been a magazine, not 100% sure
00:16:01 <kmc> there was a thing where Windows would trigger a triple fault to reset the CPU because it was the fastest way to get back to real mode
00:16:18 <ais523> kmc: because it less insane than asking the keyboard controller, also a lot faster
00:16:20 <kmc> you can reset the CPU without clearing memory or other platform state
00:16:43 <ais523> Linux still uses triple faults as a last-ditch attempt to reboot
00:16:50 <ais523> which it causes via setting the interrupt vector size to 0
00:17:00 <ais523> it only does that if the CPU's still running after all other attempts have failed
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00:17:07 <kmc> related: https://twitter.com/horse_unix/status/407426257010163712
00:17:16 <ais523> it's like that awkward bit of a program that comes just after you tried to run exec
00:17:20 <myname> fizzie: http://kevan.org/rubicon/
00:17:31 <shachaf> kmc: still waiting for zzo38_ebooks :'(
00:17:31 <fizzie> A20 line enable/disable did go through the keyboard controller too, though.
00:17:46 <ais523> fizzie: right, maybe that's what confused me
00:18:00 <ais523> also, one of the platforms I'm used to is PIC microcontrollers
00:18:09 <ais523> and people do things like connecting GPIO pins to the reset line all the time on that platform
00:18:09 <int-e> zzo38: is that backwards sokoban a real thing? google turns up people playing sokoban in reverse (pulling boxes), so it seems hard to find.
00:18:16 <kmc> ais523: heh, yeah
00:18:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I learned on the 16F series, but I used others too
00:18:24 <fizzie> myname: I don't know why I didn't think of Rubicon.
00:18:26 <zzo38> int-e: I don't know.
00:18:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I coded a bit for PIC12F<something I forgot>. It was terribly limited
00:18:32 <kmc> "Holy frick, I woke up again! Ha ha looks like those fuckers owe me five bucks"
00:18:38 <ais523> yeah, 12F is mindbogglingly limited
00:18:52 <myname> fizzie: i would really appreciate an android port of it
00:18:57 <Vorpal> ais523, If I have to do that level of embedded programming I prefer a decent AVR instead
00:19:05 <kmc> I liked the hack where you use a microcontroller to run the boost converter for its own power supply
00:19:11 <int-e> ais523: Oh, I should be asking you that question.
00:19:16 <Vorpal> But really I avoid that low level coding these days. ARM with some GPIO yay
00:19:17 <ais523> sometimes you have eight pins on the controller, and you can gain control over six of them somehow
00:19:19 <kmc> you have to press a button rapidly to get it to boot
00:19:22 <kmc> like starting a lawnmower
00:19:32 <ais523> int-e: yeah, download Enigma and search for "Nabokos"
00:19:36 <Vorpal> ais523, I coded for one with 8 yes, two were for power, leaving 6 indeed
00:19:56 <ais523> int-e: it is very difficult, though
00:20:11 <ais523> there's an easy mode that's a little easier
00:20:25 <ais523> interestingly, the easy mode has two fundamentally distinct solutions, but I've entirely forgotten one of them
00:20:26 <Vorpal> ais523, which one is "Nabokos"?
00:20:37 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a search button on the level pack screen
00:20:41 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't even have enigma installed atm
00:20:42 <ais523> you can search in there
00:20:51 <ais523> or just search for "Alex Smith" for all of mine
00:21:02 <Vorpal> ais523, and I'm on an android device with an external bluetooth keyboard
00:21:15 <ais523> Vorpal: it's the reverse Sokoban level
00:21:23 <ais523> where it makes you give it a Sokoban, then it solves it
00:21:25 <Vorpal> Hm, don't think I played that
00:21:31 <ais523> and you win the level if it's sufficiently difficult
00:21:48 <Vorpal> Not the kind of level I would enjoy
00:22:25 <ais523> it's possibly the second hardest of mine
00:22:40 <ais523> (the hardest is "Choices, choices ...", complete with spaces before sentence-ending punctuation marks)
00:22:58 <Vorpal> Is there a reason I'm missing out on
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00:23:23 <Vorpal> ais523, also what is the choices one about
00:23:35 <ais523> Vorpal: the spaces have become a #esoteric/Enigma in-joke
00:23:41 <ais523> enigma has different floors !
00:23:51 <ais523> (note: that line never actually appeared in the original
00:24:04 <ais523> because whenever you end a sentence with any punctuation mark other than a full stop
00:24:10 <ais523> some enterprising developer will go and add a space before it
00:24:27 <ais523> I don't know why, but it's become quite the joke at this point
00:24:39 <Vorpal> Ah, so you don't get the point of it either
00:24:47 <ais523> anyway, there are many levels in Enigma that contain loads and loads of different puzzles and are really long
00:25:00 <int-e> there is three points to it by my count.
00:25:01 <ais523> and that tend to get really high ratings for no obvious reason, and are often #100 in a level pack
00:25:10 <Vorpal> ais523, I found the quality of the levels varied considerably
00:25:11 <zzo38> The axiom schema of sokocan is when all cells (ignoring walls) are either a player, empty, or box-on-target.
00:25:27 <ais523> I decided that even though I hate that style of level, I'd try to make one, and try to make it good
00:25:46 <ais523> e.g. the puzzles that you can fail via dexterity mistakes are front-loaded, and there's an easy mode that lets you do them out of order
00:25:51 <ais523> and there's a framing puzzle around them all
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00:26:07 <ais523> in that each of the puzzles has two solutions, and only one of them will allow you to complete the level as a whole
00:26:11 <ais523> but the level also has perfect information
00:26:19 <ais523> at any time, you can switch to the white ball and use it to move the camera around
00:26:38 <Vorpal> That sounds quite annoying
00:26:46 <ais523> and if anything isn't obvious by looking at it, I left a document explaining
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00:27:50 <ais523> anyway, I still don't like that style of level, I prefer the one-screeners
00:28:07 <ais523> but it's my favourite of that style, because I designed it to appeal to me
00:28:20 <ais523> it also has a bunch of features that are recognisably ais523, most of which would be spoilers
00:31:08 <Vorpal> I haven't played enigma in years
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00:37:01 <int-e> hmm. what's the point of batteries?
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00:39:17 <ais523> int-e: a nice convenient method of storing electrical energy?
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00:39:51 <ais523> (sorry it took me a while to answer, I needed to make sure I picked the right physical quantity, I was about to say "power" but didn't want to be inaccurate)
00:40:55 <int-e> An awful question, I know. Why do I get two batteries in the nabokoS level?
00:41:10 <ais523> int-e: you get two batteries in every Enigma level
00:41:18 <ais523> unless they're specifically removed to prevent shortcuts
00:41:23 <ais523> this is because sometimes you're meant to use them in creative ways
00:41:44 <ais523> and if they were included only in levels where they were actually useful, it'd spoil the secret of those levels
00:42:03 <ais523> anyway, it's an Enigma level design rule to give two batteries without a really good reason not to
00:42:16 <ais523> even though like half the levels have a flag set so that they don't actually do anything
00:42:25 <ais523> (I requested that they be greyed out in that case, but nobody's implemented it yet)
00:42:37 <ais523> btw, in some of the levels where they don't actually do anything, they're still useful
00:42:46 <ais523> Enigma has a lot of corner cases like that
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00:47:09 <ais523> int-e: incidentally, one completely pointless but amusing thing you can do with the batteries in Nabokos is to give them to the white marble
00:52:26 <zzo38> How is it useful if it doesn't do anything?
00:54:25 <ais523> zzo38: sometimes you can exploit the fact that it doesn't do anything
00:54:32 <ais523> via using to occupy space that would otherwise be doing something
00:54:54 <ais523> one item in Enigma, the cup of coffee, explicitly never does anything, but it is nonetheless very useful for that property sometimes
00:55:17 <zzo38> O, so it occupies space.
00:56:37 <zzo38> So it still does *that* thing.
00:56:38 <ais523> but it doesn't have any use beyond being an item
00:56:49 <ais523> like, it doesn't have any properties except those properties that are common to all items
00:57:11 <zzo38> Yes, that could be useful.
00:57:35 <ais523> Enigma physics can get very crazy sometimes
00:57:40 <ais523> each level has a "Knowledge" rating
00:57:57 <ais523> if it's 5 (no more, no less), that means that you need to exploit some corner case of the engine in order to complete the level
00:58:02 <ais523> (6 means it doesn't follow the normal game physics)
00:58:13 <ais523> (like the brainfuck level, or the Tetris level)
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01:09:04 <ais523> sometimes I try to design interesting levels with low knowledge ratings, it's hard
01:09:13 <ais523> the joy of that game for me is trying to fit things into the game engine
01:09:16 <ais523> sort-of like esoprogramming
01:11:59 <zzo38> I think I have played it but I prefer the kind of puzzle game like Hero Hearts with all kind of new pieces added; I have figured out everything about how the game engine works, but there are some limitations and some problems, and I could some time make up a clone of it which is Free software.
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01:14:24 <Gregor> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/nibackup // Today's lesson: If at first you don't succeed, roll, roll your own.
01:15:39 <ais523> I did make a level out of nothing but solid walls, destroyable walls, abyss, and dynamite once
01:15:51 <ais523> especially because there's a lot you can do with it
01:16:11 <ais523> but it was broken because someone found a better solution than the intended one, which throws off the rest of the level
01:19:07 <ais523> and it's not in the release version, probably partly for that reason
01:21:17 * pikhq has fallen in love with this monitor
01:22:08 <kmc> what kind?
01:23:07 <kmc> dell makes a damn fine monitor
01:23:13 <pikhq> 27", 2560x1440, has quite good color fidelity.
01:23:30 <pikhq> Also impressive, darned thing comes from the factory with a proper calibration done.
01:24:00 <pikhq> Just had to flip the thing over to sRGB, and voila.
01:24:06 <kmc> oh neat, I know they did that for the older U3011
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01:24:21 * kmc owned one of those
01:24:47 <pikhq> (well, it actually has larger gamut than that, but I'm not going to try doing Adobe RGB out on X11)
01:25:13 <kmc> sRGB gamut is pretty small :/
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01:25:40 <pikhq> Yes, but it's a royal pain getting better output from your software.
01:26:04 <pikhq> I'd rather display sRGB right than display sRGB samples as Adobe RGB most of the time.
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01:57:23 <ais523> ooh, Gregor got libdl.so after all
01:57:40 <Gregor> Yeah, I had libdl.so from the beginning.
02:01:04 <ais523> to be fair, I'm not convinced libc.so was worth the amount it eventually went for
02:02:07 <Gregor> libc.so is worth ALL the money.
02:02:16 <Gregor> Also, the guy who bought it won't respond to my emails :'(
02:02:51 <ais523> for a moment I wondered who it was
02:03:10 <ais523> and then I realised that "webmaster@libc.so" works, if there's a web server there and they're following the standard
02:03:47 <ais523> hmm, although it seems that the most common address for me to receive spams at my server is support@
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02:04:11 <ais523> oh, there's also the one email from sudo
02:04:22 <Gregor> .so has a working WHOIS service.
02:04:28 <ais523> the "this incident will be reported" thing is even more surreal when you subsequently get the report
02:04:46 <Gregor> It actually IS reported?
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02:05:01 <Gregor> Maybe I should check root's spool...
02:05:24 <ais523> I think I set nethack4.org up so that I get root's email
02:05:28 <ais523> but yeah, I was shocked
02:06:01 <ais523> I didn't really expect an email to actually arrive
02:08:34 <zzo38> It is reported but I think there is a command-line switch to tell sudo not to report it
02:17:10 <ais523> I had a vaguely silly problem today, with an even sillier solution
02:17:36 <ais523> the problem: I have installed a setgid executable, and suspect it has a permissions problem (my suspicion eventually turned out correct)
02:17:57 <ais523> I want to debug it, but I can't debug it as user:group me because I don't have the perms, and I can't debug it as root because then it works
02:18:10 <ais523> thus, I need to keep the same user, but change my group to one that I'm not a member of
02:18:24 <ais523> anyone realise why the solution is silly yet?
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02:21:32 <ais523> OK, so the problem is, as ais523, I don't have the perms to change my group to a group I'm not in
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02:21:55 <ais523> as root, I can change my group to whatever I want, but most permissions-dropping commands (such as su) also reset my group as well
02:22:08 <ais523> thus, I need a command than can set my user and group simultaneously
02:22:13 <ais523> and the only one I had handy was sudo
02:22:31 <ais523> but, if I attempt to use sudo to change to a user other than root, it complains that I'm not allowed to do that (because it's only configured to let me become root)
02:22:40 <ais523> conclusion: run sudo /using sudo/
02:23:04 <ais523> this is the first time in my life I've had a legitimate reason to start a command "sudo sudo", although ofc you can stack it effectively indefinitely if you feel like it
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02:24:01 <ais523> although I'd disabled the sudo reports on my local computer, so instead of "THIS INCIDENT WILL BE REPORTED" it just said "Sorry"
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02:56:47 <Bike> What's a Trusted Platform Model
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03:03:58 <int-e> model? not module? hmm.
03:04:37 <Bike> oops i meant module.
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03:12:34 <int-e> it's a piece of hardware that does cryptography, stores keys, and may verify a boot sequence. "trusted" means that while it is running on your insecure PC, entities like Microsoft or Hollywood can still trust it. Wikipedia knows a bit more.
03:13:50 <zzo38> Well, whoever programmed it can trust it, I suppose. If you don't have the latest version of Windows on your computer, it might not be programmed at all, and do nothing.
03:14:12 <zzo38> If you do, then it is belonging to Microsoft and Hollywood, and so on.
03:14:18 <Bike> huh. weird. i have also found out from my PC construction odyssey that there is a possiblity of attaching a chassis opening detection wire.
03:15:14 <zzo38> Yes, some computers have that, and will log it in the BIOS in such a case.
03:17:26 <int-e> cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_System
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03:25:02 <Jafet> Chassis intrusion sensors are standard for servers.
03:30:24 <myname> oh dear, people on c3 doesn't know befunge
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04:00:42 <pikhq> Linux also supports TPMs.
04:01:09 <pikhq> It is at least *possible* to run a system wherein you yourself are doing the verification.
04:02:22 <zzo38> And there is TPM emulator, too.
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05:17:54 <zzo38> My internet connection stopped working for some reason, but it works now.
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05:30:19 <Sgeo_> I don't know if it's safe to take a cab in a blizzard
05:31:12 <kmc> zzo38: do you know the reason?
05:32:06 <kmc> int-e: the bits most useful for orwellian hollywood nonsense are not as widely implemented
05:32:10 <kmc> namely remote attestation
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05:40:15 <zzo38> kmc: No, I don't know the reason, sorry.
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05:46:59 <fizzie> ais523: postmaster@example.com is *the* standard, if the domain has a SMTP service -- and if it doesn't, you obviously can't send email at all -- this webmaster@ is just some newfangled "HTTP" nonsense.
05:47:19 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, I was thinking "or you could just contact the email admin if they have email"
05:47:26 <ais523> and somehow didn't realise you couldn't send an email if they didn't
05:48:06 <fizzie> (PSOTMASTER, HOSTMASTER, USENET, NEWS (synonym for USENET), WEBMASTER, WWW (synonym for WEBMASTER), UUCP and FTP are the mailbox names RFC2142 defines.)
05:49:23 <fizzie> Not exactly PSOTMASTER, obviously.
05:50:20 <fizzie> It also defines info@, marketing@, sales@ and support@ for "business-related mailbox names", and abuse@, noc@ and security@ for "network operations mailbox names".
05:50:32 <fizzie> I think zem.fi gets most spam at the "webmaster" address.
05:50:46 <ais523> nethack4.org gets pretty much all its spam at support@
05:51:04 <fizzie> Possibly it the webmaster address was in some autogenerated Apache page and was crawled from there.
05:51:39 <zzo38> I have been asked on here about Sirlin's Chess 2 before. You can read a lot of comments (including my own) on: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?itemid=Chess2
05:51:44 <fizzie> I also get some amount of spam for "rfk86", because that was on the page.
05:51:54 <fizzie> (I don't think I've ever gotten a legitimate email to that address.)
05:55:01 <Jafet> wishmaster@example.com
05:55:18 <fizzie> fishmaster@example.com
05:55:32 <ais523> fizzie: is that an x86 version of robotfindskitten?
05:55:45 <fizzie> ais523: No, it's a TI-86 version.
05:57:56 <fizzie> ("Hamster / a dentist / hard porn / Steven Seagull / warrior / this rifle / in me / the fishmaster," go the lyrics of Fishmaster.)
05:59:50 <ais523> fizzie: are there enough of them to feed them into fungot?
05:59:50 <fungot> ais523: srbt yow! i'm unemployed!
06:02:05 <fizzie> Not really. (There aren't that many lyrics in Wishmaster, either.)
06:02:07 <Jafet> If you want fungot to make less sense, you should use the original lyrics
06:02:07 <fungot> Jafet: because it's cool, isn't it?
06:02:17 <fizzie> Though it would be possible to make a song lyrics style, I guess.
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06:02:44 <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
06:03:11 <fizzie> I actually have somewhere a language model for song lyrics I got from Tampere University of Technology folks. Plus something I trained on a smallish-but-available database.
06:03:43 <kmc> Chess: still playable
06:03:54 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
06:03:58 <HackEgo> 1155) <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
06:04:23 <fizzie> (Song lyric databases generally don't provide download options, presumably for copyright reasons. From what I recall, LyricWiki doesn't either. (Does any Wikia wiki, really?))
06:04:40 <zzo38> Chess variants are still very interesting though, so you can play those games too, please.
06:05:09 <Jafet> Wikia being evil doesn't help
06:05:24 <fizzie> Jafet: They're also all so horrible website-wise, I don't really want to crawl them. (Though I guess e.g. the mldb.org interface is not all that bad.)
06:06:30 <Jafet> Some music players implement this lyrics-grabbing protocol
06:07:17 <zzo38> However, my TeX chess program doesn't currently implement some of the features needed for Chess 2, but hopefully that can be fixed.
06:07:41 <Jafet> Well, by that I mean rhythmbox has this plugin that grabs lyrics from some unspecified online service
06:07:50 <fizzie> I don't think MusicBrainz does lyrics, sadly.
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06:10:16 <fizzie> LyricWiki has a SOAP/REST API, but "due to licensing restrictions, the API can only directly return a small portion of the lyrics directly - which is useful for determining if you have a correct match. All responses also contain a URL to a corresponding page with the full lyrics."
06:10:58 <fizzie> (It used to return the full lyrics, but they had to change that.)
06:11:10 <fizzie> "We can't get a license to distribute lyrics for free via an API, however we do have a license to display lyrics on a web-page as long as the web-page has javascript enabled so that we can track which songs are being viewed (for distributing royalties) and have an ad on them so that a percentage of the money can be paid as licensing fees."
06:12:28 <fizzie> "Have you ever wanted to run a lyric website or a lyrics app for a mobile device but wondered where you could get good quality lyric data from? Congratulations you have found one of the largest databases of lyrics available on the web! This database is in MySQL format and contains half a million songs that you can use on your own lyric site." For only $24.99!
06:13:13 <fizzie> "This is a brand new lyric database collated from a number of sources." Somehow I am not really sure all those sources make their stuff available for free for commercial use.
06:14:08 <Jafet> (What is a ᵀᴇˣ chess program?)
06:16:39 <kmc> wow! unicode ᵀᴇˣ
06:17:03 <kmc> I have some CSS to do it but I hadn't seen it in "plain text" before
06:18:04 <kmc> speaking of MySQL, https://twitter.com/alex_gaynor/status/418892674309967872
06:33:48 <fizzie> Can you build MySQL on musl?
06:35:55 <fizzie> Something called "µSQL" probably exists.
06:43:05 <zzo38> TeX chess program is a program to read algebraic chess notation and generate diagrams from them, as well as to format the moves, and to play many chess variants, too.
06:47:56 <zzo38> I don't know what SQL programs you prefer but I use SQLite
06:53:51 <quintopia> kmc: i'm on my phone. what are the unicode chars in front of chess above?
06:54:27 <Bike> "tex" but with the heightshit
06:55:31 <quintopia> zzo38: oh you are adding Chess 2 to TeX chess?
06:56:04 <quintopia> are there any other chess variants with the bidding mechanic?
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07:02:52 <ais523> I said hi before they left this time!
07:03:00 <Bike> not on my screen!
07:05:08 <ais523> I thought that might be the problem :-(
07:05:22 <Bike> good effort though
07:07:27 <Slereah> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/Jackals2.jpg
07:07:38 <Slereah> I should take more jackal pix
07:08:03 <Slereah> The holidays went away too quickly
07:08:22 <Slereah> Between the family christmas and new year with friends, I barely had any time to do shit
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07:11:14 <kmc> shachaf: http://xkcd.com/1312/
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07:11:44 <kmc> `unidecode ᵀᴇˣ -- quintopia
07:11:45 <HackEgo> [U+1D40 MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL T] [U+1D07 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL E] [U+02E3 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL X] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] [U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0071 LATIN SMALL LETTER Q] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+006F LATIN SMA
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07:13:11 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know, but there are others involving hidden information in various ways.
07:13:45 <quintopia> zzo38: do you play regular normal deck card games?
07:14:41 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, I do play that too.
07:15:01 <zzo38> I know several card games using the standard 52-card deck or some subset.
07:15:32 <Bike> Any good at Canasta?
07:15:40 <zzo38> Is that the game also known as "I Doubt It"? I do know how to play, and a few variants. I don't play often though.
07:16:00 <zzo38> I know how to play Canasta too, but I don't play much; I don't think I am particularly good at it.
07:18:43 <quintopia> zzo38: i had an idea for a variant, but maybe it exists. the idea would be to deal some of the cards to no player face down, and let people optionally draw and discard at turn start, also optionally discard and draw 1/4 of the cards they pick up as penalties.
07:19:03 <zzo38> That is an idea, at least.
07:19:04 <quintopia> plus there's two decks with 4 wild jokers
07:19:15 <quintopia> so it's hard to keep track of who could have what
07:19:16 <kmc> Slereah: why does your flat have a Big Red Button next to the door
07:19:22 <kmc> @localtime Slereah
07:19:23 <lambdabot> Local time for Slereah is Fri Jan 03 08:19:17 2014
07:20:09 <zzo38> Sirlin also invented the game Pandante (not yet for sale, although you can download the rules and perhaps make up your own), which is like poker but involving lying; you can accuse another player of lying, similar to how you can in I Doubt It.
07:20:15 * kmc tries to identify the country from the Europlug grounding variant in use
07:20:39 <kmc> zzo38: poker involves a lot of lying too, isn't it?
07:20:51 <ais523> kmc: it's bluffing, not lying
07:21:01 <ais523> because nothing you say that has a game effect has a truth value
07:21:11 <ais523> bluffing's when you bet a large amount despite having a bad hand
07:21:19 <ais523> in the hope that other people will think you have a good hand and not take the bet
07:21:23 <kmc> you can also just say you have a good hand
07:21:26 <kmc> but i guess people don't
07:21:30 <kmc> because it would be silly
07:21:59 <kmc> "is betting a speech act"
07:22:11 <kmc> perhaps after Citizens United
07:22:44 <zzo38> Yes, it is bluffing, not lying; it is different in that way.
07:23:14 <zzo38> In Pandante, if you claim to have a flush, and then nobody accuses you of lying, then it counts as a flush regardless of what cards you actually hold.
07:24:20 <kmc> Slereah: do you have an answer to that question a lot, too?
07:25:08 <kmc> also that is impressively many jackals
07:25:19 <kmc> do you have a copy of The Day of the Jackal too
07:25:35 <Bike> where does that book keep coming from
07:25:52 <kmc> "You need a Day of the Jackal-type motherfucker, basically, to do some shit like that."
07:28:06 <Bike> where's thath quote from
07:30:22 <kmc> niba rkcynvavat jul fyvz puneyrf vfa'g hc gb gur gnfx bs nffnffvangvat fgngr frangbe pynl qnivf
07:30:31 <kmc> (spoilers)
07:35:30 <kmc> http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/2/5266258/kanye-west-themed-bitcoin-clone-said-to-launch-this-month-coinye
07:36:35 <ais523> why are people linking that story
07:36:40 <ais523> it isn't even interesting
07:36:44 <kmc> it's absurd
07:41:55 <kmc> http://coinmarketcap.com/ -__-
07:42:04 <kmc> Sexcoin, Deutsche eMark, FedoraCoin, HoboNickels
07:42:40 <Bike> can we be done with the internet now
07:43:09 <Bike> i wonder how it feels to develop a cryptocurrency which is subsequently behind dogecoin
07:43:20 <kmc> such shame, very failure
07:44:13 <Bike> oh jesus "asiccoin" uses that shitty anarchy logo
07:46:28 <kmc> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric currency design and deployment!
07:46:57 <Bike> hey, that could actually be fun. what makes a currency esoteric? not in the "nobody uses it" sense, of course.
07:47:13 <kmc> weird proof of work function based on an esolang?
07:47:15 <Bike> changing values rapidly is too pedestrian...
07:47:32 <kmc> also bitcoin already contains a mini language for describing transactions
07:47:36 <kmc> could just make that more eso
07:48:06 <ais523> actually, I had a bitcoin-related eso idea
07:48:17 <ais523> which is to encode a non-bitcoin currency into the bitcoin blockchain
07:48:58 <ais523> like, rule that only transactions less than 1mBTC count, and only if they have an even floating-point exponent (so you can easily split a transaction in two to toggle whether it counts)
07:57:07 <zzo38> The rule in Sirlin's Chess 2 where a defender bidding against an attacker with zero stones must bid one seems useless to me. He wouldn't ever *want* to bid any other amount. Ties go to the attacker, having stones isn't a disadvantage, turns aren't lost due to dueling, if 0-0 the attacker can make the defender lose a stone, and nothing changes!
08:06:10 <quintopia> zzo38: it isn't really a rule, just a pointing out of a consequence
08:06:50 <quintopia> it makes it easier to implement in software to have it explicitly stated like that
08:06:53 <ais523> in tournament backgammon you can't use the doubling cube at 5-6
08:07:03 <ais523> because otherwise the player on 5 always would
08:08:49 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, it can be done automatically in a computer program.
08:11:29 <zzo38> ais523: You are correct about that, and I think that is called Crawford rule. Such rule can be used in other games too if you are including a doubling cube rule (I thought of using it in Pokemon, even).
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08:30:31 <zzo38> Another variant of doubling cube, which I do not see mentioned in the article about backgammon (probably because it doesn't apply to backgammon, in which ties and draws aren't possible), would be in case of a tie or draw, the stakes are doubled (rather than reset), and then the cube is centered again. Such a rule can be used with or without the offering doubling cube.
08:41:13 <zzo38> I think the first time someone shown me how to play backgammon game, it was Turkish backgammon, although she didn't call it that, and she isn't Turkish anyways.
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12:20:53 <nortti> ``Why knock Haskell for being lazy? That was uncalled for! ''
12:20:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `Why: not found
12:28:05 <nortti> http://me.veekun.com/blog/2013/01/09/cvs-and-file-extensions/
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12:45:03 <fizzie> Huh; first time I've seen a freenode channel on the wall in an art museum. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140103-irc1.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140103-irc2.jpg
12:47:19 <Taneb> I saw something like that at the Science Museum in London
12:49:09 <fizzie> I've been in some sort of "science museum" in London once, wonder if it was the same place.
12:49:15 <fizzie> That was back in 2001 or so, though.
12:49:54 <fizzie> There might've been IRC-based chats elsewhere, but I don't recall seeing anything in freenode.
12:50:41 <oerjan> nortti: darn i assumed that was CVS
12:50:43 <Taneb> There's the Natural History museum, which is the big one
12:50:54 <Taneb> And then there's the Science Museum, which is smaller and right next door
12:57:33 <fizzie> I think this was in the general neighbourhood of Hyde Park.
12:57:58 <fizzie> I guess it's that Science Museum / Natural History Museum complex, then.
12:58:14 <fizzie> I recall it wasn't very big.
12:59:17 <Taneb> May have been the Science Museum
12:59:26 <Taneb> Natural History museum is muuuuuuuuch bigger
12:59:44 <Taneb> And the British museum (history and anthropology, iirc) is MUUUUUUUUCH bigger
13:00:09 <fizzie> Also it's kind of a de-facto standard stop, I guess.
13:00:24 <Taneb> In the science museum you went to, was there a blue whale attached to the ceiling
13:02:03 <fizzie> I can't remember, and I can't locate any photos either. (Maybe it was a pre-ubiquitous-digital-cameras thing.)
13:03:01 <fizzie> I'm sure the exhibitions have changed somewhat in the last decade or so.
13:03:14 <nortti> fizzie: where exactly is the ##2048 displayed?
13:03:33 <fizzie> nortti: It's in Kiasma, there's an exhibition about Erkki Kurenniemi.
13:04:24 <fizzie> I haven't seen anything especially interesting on-channel, just that bot stating out which track is playing on the radio.
13:04:53 <fizzie> The radio being the one at http://kurenniemi.activearchives.org/dataradio/
13:05:05 <fizzie> I guess the chat sidebar there is what's connected to the channel.
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13:06:33 <fizzie> Built on Kiwi IRC, I see.
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13:16:23 <fizzie> Also from the exhibition: there was a room with a dozen or so monitors displaying movies; each was driven by a Raspberry Pi: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140103-pi1.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140103-pi2.jpg
13:16:31 <fizzie> Turns out they're not useless after all!
13:23:35 <fizzie> Finally, there was a robotic head-on-wheels that had a speech synthesizer that wandered around and randomly said "rauhaa, rauhaa, joulu on jo ovella" and "jumalauta, mulla on outo olo", plus "voi ihmisen pieru" on bumping into anything. (If you can't tell, it's a modern art museum.)
13:25:14 <HackEgo> [U+1D40 MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL T] [U+1D07 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL E] [U+02E3 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL X]
13:27:10 <fizzie> I'm guessing that should really be a MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL X, except it doesn't exist.
13:27:41 <fizzie> Or perhaps even more optimally just regular T and X, and some kind of dropped E.
13:51:12 <nortti> http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/d/de/ChickCthulhu.gif
13:51:29 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> i wonder how it feels to develop a cryptocurrency which is subsequently behind dogecoin <kmc> such shame, very failure
13:51:34 <HackEgo> 1156) <Bike> i wonder how it feels to develop a cryptocurrency which is subsequently behind dogecoin <kmc> such shame, very failure
13:55:17 <fizzie> The baseline of the small capital E is kind of wrong.
13:56:22 <Sgeo_> I get to work from home today
13:56:34 <mauke> I get to not work from home today
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13:58:58 <fizzie> I get to not work today.
13:59:18 <fizzie> Perhaps someone gets home today.
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13:59:46 <Taneb> I get not home on Sunday
14:00:03 <boily> good piñata tractor beam morning!
14:00:18 <boily> Taneb: I get partially home on Sunday.
14:00:37 <Taneb> Man, I'm looking forward to Sunday
14:01:03 <Taneb> York was the first place I've lived that wasn't Hexham this side of 2000
14:01:10 * oerjan is starting to wonder where boily's mornings are coming from, anyway.
14:01:53 <oerjan> maybe from the same place as nortti's link.
14:05:19 <HackEgo> danddreclist 48: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
14:05:49 <boily> oerjan: we were playing Ghost Stories yesterday night and discussing some strategies.
14:06:41 <boily> zzo38: ! I can't find file `dungeonsrecording'.
14:06:55 <zzo38> boily: Download it from the same directory.
14:07:01 <boily> nortti: you have nice links.
14:08:12 <zzo38> A precompiled DVI is also available, in case you want to use that (no unusual fonts are needed).
14:08:43 <boily> good points: you specify the number of eyes.
14:08:48 <boily> bad points: no unusual fonts.
14:09:08 <zzo38> That's because I have had no use for any unusual fonts (yet).
14:09:37 <Taneb> In my first D&D session, my character ended up with a magical tattoo on his chest
14:09:46 <zzo38> Taneb: What kind of magical tattoo?
14:09:59 <Taneb> zzo38, it's an eye, and I can't tell you more than that yet
14:10:03 <Taneb> Because I don't know more than that
14:10:22 <Taneb> But there's a nasty crow lady after me because of it
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14:24:20 <nortti> oerjan: I doubt it, because that is from my todo list
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14:49:40 <nortti> http://me.veekun.com/blog/2013/03/03/the-controller-pattern-is-awful-and-other-oo-heresy/
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15:00:38 <boily> I say, all patterns are evil.
15:00:54 <mauke> all language is patterns
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15:01:40 <oerjan> clearly both boily and mauke are correct.
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15:54:26 <nortti> http://science.slashdot.org/story/14/01/02/2247214/dogs-defecate-in-alignment-with-earths-magnetic-field
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15:56:19 <boily> @tell oerjan *mapole smack*
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16:12:32 <FireFly> http://serverfault.com/questions/293217/our-security-auditor-is-an-idiot-how-do-i-give-him-the-information-he-wants this is comedy gold
16:18:43 <boily> uhm. plaintext passwords, private SSH keys, everything in the hands of a bozo?
16:33:35 <int-e> I'm not sure which scares me more ... the idea of handing all that information to somebody calling themselves security auditor, or the apparently genuine interest in complying with such a request.
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16:39:05 <boily> LinearInterpol: try CtrlR-Shift-U.
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16:42:07 <boily> mauke is a Master Archer, with all kinds of tricky arrows.
16:42:16 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=up
16:42:37 <boily> `learn mauke is a Master Archer. Caution! He can shoot your PRIVMSG with creative arrows!
16:51:24 <mroman> Is there an option for ghc to just produce strict code?
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17:39:20 <mauke> #define shortjmp return
17:41:09 <int-e> nabokoS was nasty ... of course the required number of pushes is optimal and the "hard" version has a unique solution up to symmetry.
17:41:19 <int-e> I wouldn't call 'return' a jump.
17:41:48 <mauke> then what is longjmp?
17:41:51 <int-e> though I guess "longjump" isn't much of a jump either.
17:42:03 <mauke> also, it's obviously a jmp, not a jump
17:42:30 <boily> int-e: you speak like fungot.
17:42:30 <fungot> boily: you don't know a lot of it can be ( make-circle-str 250 ' blue)
17:42:33 <int-e> no "u". I'm not using it very often.
17:43:15 <boily> int-e is the new incarnation of fungot! zzo38 is an impostor!
17:43:16 <fungot> boily: such as fnord' rather than fnord data, maybe specify it in a minute i'll see whether i need inheritance or not in css) " give me the message now.
17:43:29 * boily thwacks int-e because of the bad pun.
17:44:13 <int-e> boily: "nabokoS" is ais523's enigma level that asks you to build a sokoban level.
17:44:43 * boily is conflagratedly puzzled...
17:46:48 <int-e> And I call it "nasty" because I had to write a computer program in order to solve it.
17:47:22 <boily> can I get a link to the enigmais523?
17:47:57 <int-e> http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/
17:49:14 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
17:49:24 <int-e> There is one level in there called "Nabokos", which was created by ais523.
17:59:59 <ter2> wait, ais523 made nabokos?
18:01:14 <ter2> i like enigma quite a bit and especially that one
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18:31:38 <kmc> shachaf: i sent you the xkcd link in the same spirit as you pasting me terrible things from #haskell
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18:44:16 <int-e> meh, but Enigma is a lousy interface for Sokoban levels.
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18:58:27 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2012/07/30/binary-search-is-a-pathological-case-for-caches/
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19:02:15 <Bike> «#define BARRIER do { __asm__ volatile("" ::: "memory"); } while (0)» ah yes
19:03:52 <mroman> gcc has builtins for that
19:03:54 <Bike> "I’ve seen horrible implementations of tr1::hash for unsigned values in (it’s the identity function on my mac)" heh
19:05:20 <kmc> shachaf: no
19:07:01 <mroman> at least it's collision free
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19:20:56 <nooodl> LinearInterpol: i played the heck out of that as a kid
19:21:46 <fizzie> Hey, that looks pretty familiar.
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19:37:22 <LinearInterpol> i'm so confused right now what is happening to my brain.
19:40:15 <boily> this thing uglifies in my eyeballs.
19:44:23 <olsner> hmm, burritos... is it about monads?
19:46:29 <boily> it's a traversal. (Burrito m, Taquito t) => forall a. m t a -> t m a.
19:48:57 <boily> apparently, there is such a thing as taco de ojo → http://www.burritoeater.com/tacodeojo.html
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19:52:02 <boily> olsner: eye taco. even I am weirdede.
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19:55:01 <HackEgo> luce90: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:55:37 <boily> another visitor scared away. *sigh*
19:55:46 <boily> also, anybody here who speaks Italian?
19:56:19 <mauke> I only know "ciao a tutti" and "!list"
20:00:17 <boily> kmc: sorry for autotabbing you.
20:00:38 -!- nisstyre has joined.
20:00:47 <mauke> preflex: karma chameleon
20:03:40 <mauke> http://lists.cairographics.org/archives/cairo/2013-December/024858.html
20:09:40 <olsner> nice, I've always wanted C++ to be even bigger
20:10:02 <boily> someday, C++ will be big enough to encompass Haskell!
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20:56:26 <boily> there, that should do it.
20:56:47 <mauke> (karma chameleon)++
20:56:52 <mauke> preflex: karma karma chameleon
20:56:58 <LinearInterpol> boily++ boily++ boily++ boily++ boily++ boily++ boily++
20:58:04 <fizzie> Huh, the first Carmageddon game looks a lot clunkier than what I remembered.
20:58:34 <mauke> preflex: karma boily
20:59:29 <quintopia> now i have lower karma than all of you!
20:59:54 <mauke> preflex: karma quintopia
21:00:10 <mauke> preflex: karma quintopia++
21:00:10 <boily> preflex: karma quintopia
21:00:42 <kmc> preflex: karma
21:01:40 * quintopia hides from the impending karma war of doom
21:02:34 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:36 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:38 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:40 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:42 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:44 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:46 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:48 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:50 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:52 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:54 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:56 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:58 <boily> (yes, I know, something something flood something...)
21:04:11 <kmc> `unidecode ／
21:04:12 <HackEgo> [U+FF0F FULLWIDTH SOLIDUS]
21:04:26 <kmc> `unicode HEAVY BLACK HEART
21:04:33 <boily> `unicode ORANGE BOOK
21:04:36 <FireFly> `unicode HEAVY BLACK METAL
21:04:49 <kmc> `unicode KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT
21:05:14 <boily> ORANGE BOOK is a real legit unicode char.
21:05:17 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=red+apple
21:06:07 <boily> «bin torieux.» red apple too is a Real Unicode Far Away in the SMP Character.
21:06:20 <kmc> what about red lobster
21:06:22 <FireFly> There's also a GREEN APPLE
21:06:58 <FireFly> The reference pictures on file-formats.info show them in different greyscale shades
21:10:19 <boily> `unicode CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY
21:15:50 <FireFly> `unicode GLYPH FOR ISOLATE ARABIC HAMZAH UNDER LIGATURE LAM ALEF
21:16:27 <fizzie> There's both an old Unicode database and an inability to handle non-BMP characters in the Python of HackEgo.
21:17:33 <FireFly> Oh, apparently that is an old name
21:17:42 <FireFly> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE LAM WITH ALEF WITH HAMZA BELOW ISOLATED FORM
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21:34:31 <fizzie> Strange Enigma thing: when playing, xscreensaver does not think there is any mouse movement, and therefore activates after the usual delay.
21:35:06 <shachaf> kmc: <#haskell on that comic> If you can't laugh at it, you need to reevaluate the place that technological choices have in your life.
21:37:35 <kmc> i can't laugh at it because it's not funny
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21:38:09 <boily> olsner: today's xkcd.
21:38:21 <`^_^v> neither is any other xkcd
21:38:28 <`^_^v> this one just has more butthurt haskellers
21:38:53 <shachaf> it's a p. irritating attitude imo
21:39:14 <kmc> if i yell "haskell sucks!" and you don't laugh at my funny joke then you are too emotionally attached to haskell
21:39:44 <`^_^v> not exactly, but if you take offense to it you are too emotionally attached to haskell
21:40:01 <boily> I don't laugh at that joke. Haskell programmers don't laugh, as emotion is a side-effect.
21:40:29 <kmc> `^_^v: accusing people of 'taking offense' when they're expressing some other emotion is common and obnoxious
21:40:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
21:41:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
21:41:17 <`^_^v> stop executing me bro
21:41:28 <mauke> get a nick that doesn't suck
21:41:28 <kmc> `^_^v: I didn't accuse you of accusing anyone!
21:41:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:41:55 -!- elliott has kicked `^_^v my patience for you has expired.
21:41:58 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:42:12 <boily> I am offended at people suggesting I take offense at people suggesting I accuse offensers who offense people by taking offense at suggesting offenses are what offense people taking offense at.
21:42:32 <olsner> boily: that's offensive!
21:43:24 <Taneb> Anyone know where I can buy typewriter ribbon?
21:43:45 <kmc> office supply store
21:43:50 <elliott> it's a pretty weird xkcd given that iirc xkcd.com has used haskell internally several times
21:44:08 <elliott> but I'm glad I'm not in #haskell right now!
21:44:11 <kmc> it's a really old and tired joke
21:44:17 <Taneb> I think it's pandering to its audience
21:44:26 <kmc> also based on a false strawman claim about haskell
21:44:40 <elliott> I'm pretty sure xkcd is just catering to the lowest common denominator half the time at this point
21:44:42 <kmc> elliott: as a friend I'm also glad you aren't in #haskell
21:44:47 <elliott> all the cheap gag strips feel like that now
21:44:59 <elliott> which, whatever, it helps the guy sell shirts and he does cool stuff on the side
21:45:04 <Taneb> I am in #haskell but like Phantom_Hoover knows I blot out things that annoy me
21:45:24 <kmc> I would wager good money that this strip sat in some rejects pile for a long time and he just couldn't come up with anything better today so was like fuck it.
21:45:36 <elliott> xkcd is heavily queued, IIRC
21:46:43 <kmc> I've mostly stopped complaining about xkcd because I think its reputation has fallen enough that it's not so bizarrely overrated anymore
21:47:42 <elliott> we should talk about typewriter ribbon or something instead of xkcd.
21:48:14 <boily> ribbons are good. my girlfriend has some nice ones.
21:48:33 <Taneb> I wonder if the on-campus store at York stocks them
21:51:32 <kmc> shachaf: you should leave #haskell
21:51:55 <fizzie> Some dot matrix printer ribbons are getting hard to find.
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21:53:33 <kmc> dot matrix printers are still common though
21:53:35 <boily> fizzie: dot-matrix printers use ribbons?
21:53:39 <kmc> but maybe particular ones aren't
21:53:51 <kmc> also maybe I mean "dot matrix printers were still common in 2003"... time makes fools of us all
21:53:54 <fizzie> boily: Some do, at least.
21:54:25 <fizzie> boily: http://www.amazon.com/Epson-ERC-30-34-38-Pack/dp/B00280C35A stuff like that.
21:54:35 <fizzie> Or http://www.amazon.com/Epson-Premium-Compatible-Black-Pack/dp/B002DN6YA2/ref=sr_1_3?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1388786039&sr=1-3 in two colors!
21:55:03 <fizzie> And yes, it's the non-popular models that are harder.
21:56:21 <fizzie> I had (maybe it's still in the basement) a Hyundai (I think) brand dot matrix printer that wasn't ribbon-compatible with anything major, and even 5-10 years ago when I was looking, a big office supply company managed to locate just three cartridges in some musty old warehouse.
21:57:29 <fizzie> Actually I think it was a lot like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wide-Carriage-Dot-Matrix-printer-Hyundai-HDP-920-/251274316551 one, but perhaps not quite that one model.
21:57:52 <fizzie> "Hyundai HDP920 Compatible High Density Re-Inking Nylon Cassette Printer Ribbon" "This Item has now been Discontinued and is no Longer Available to Order"
21:59:11 <fizzie> http://ru.pc-history.com/wp-content/uploads/prn_hyundahdp-920.JPG yes that is amazingly close to what it looked/looks like.
21:59:20 <boily> sometimes, one happens to have an old incompatypewriter lying around. something that hasn't happened to me yet, but I fear will be bestowed upon me by an unknown stranger in a trenchcoat on Ste-Catherine.
21:59:44 <fizzie> I wonder where my typewriter is, also.
22:00:00 <fizzie> I wrote things with it when at the summer cottage.
22:00:08 <fizzie> (There wasn't all that much to do.)
22:00:25 <fizzie> It did do multiple colors, though.
22:00:33 <Taneb> I bought a typewriter from a charity shop the other day, completely impulsively
22:01:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CHICKEN RIBBON).
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22:01:47 <fizzie> http://prodano.by/media/images/post/315/3153457_0.jpg apparently it works fine in Windows 7 x64 SP1. If that's what the bit in Russian means.
22:01:47 <olsner> how hard is it to make your own ink ribbon out of like ribbon and ink?
22:04:59 <nooodl> fizzie: "PRINTING FROM WINDOWS 7 x64 SP1"
22:05:26 <fizzie> (What's the hammer-and-sickle for?)
22:05:47 <fizzie> (Perhaps it's a Party-approved printer.)
22:06:00 <nooodl> ending sentences is pretty ink-expensive in russian
22:06:57 <fizzie> Actually, it seems that HDP-920 is the A3 model. Mine was just A4; maybe it's the HDP-910 instead.
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22:16:31 <kmc> shachaf: is there a concise term for an idea which isn't that stupid but is very popular with clueless beginners who will do it wrong and so everyone hates this idea?
22:17:26 <shachaf> what are some examples other than otp
22:17:44 <kmc> probably a lot of things on the haskell faq
22:17:51 <kmc> like dynamic typing
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22:18:54 <lambdabot> boily said 6h 22m 34s ago: *mapole smack*
22:22:23 <mauke> fizzie: I think Perl fits better than PHP
22:31:56 <Sgeo> kmc: I once considered OO and static typing to be examples... sucky languages get them wrong and so they get derided
22:32:25 <Sgeo> Although I'm not sure what some 'right' ways to do OO are, there are probably better approaches than the mainstream
22:34:43 <kmc> definitely "wanting to do OO-ish things in Haskell" is an example
22:34:54 <kmc> beginners want it and are usually wrong, but there are some valid cases
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22:42:53 <Sgeo> And here's me posting about it a while ago even though the post doesn't actually add anything to this discussion: http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/45037477692/i-suspect-that-much-of-the-time-when-people-say
22:44:08 <fizzie> "A generic error has occurred." Well, that's helpful.
22:46:04 <Sgeo> Would 'unknown' be better?
22:46:53 <Sgeo> It's certainly better than pretending that the operation was successful
22:47:06 <Taneb> kmc, I'm heading towards an OO-ish API for this game library I'm writing in Haskell
22:48:28 <Sgeo> I think Tcl is a language quite likely to explore interesting corners of OO design space
22:48:38 <zzo38> What game library is that? And what kind of OO-ish API?
22:48:41 <Sgeo> There's XOTcl, which I don't know much about admittedly
22:48:54 <Sgeo> Although they seem to limit themselves to single-dispatch
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22:49:20 <Sgeo> Smalltalk, ironically, seems less likey. Its OO is built into its core, I imagine a bit tricky to just change
22:49:27 <Sgeo> LinearInterpol: are you pikhq?
22:50:17 <Sgeo> I'm kind of done with Tcl after using a script I wrote that leaked around 12GB of memory
22:50:45 <Sgeo> My IRC bot is also apparently a memory leaker, but I'm not sure what's causing that. That bot is also in Tcl.
22:50:48 <Taneb> LinearInterpol, you're behind Gregor, then
22:50:52 <Sgeo> I think I'm bad at manual memory management
22:53:04 <kmc> it doesn't help that people mean one of like 12 different things by "OOP"
22:53:39 <Taneb> kmc, is "OOP" better or worse defined than "FP"
22:53:48 <kmc> the lie that OOP was the origin of abstract data types is pervasive in CS education
22:53:57 <Sgeo> How many dimemsions are there of somewhat well known terminology to describe OO systems?
22:54:08 <Sgeo> single/multiple dispatch, prototypal/class based, etc/
22:54:20 <LinearInterpol> Sgeo: as many dimensions as there are implementations of different ideas.
22:54:30 <Sgeo> LinearInterpol: how many of those ideas have names though
22:55:12 <LinearInterpol> hell, even the definition of object isn't consistent in most places.
22:55:24 <Sgeo> So that random joe schmoe could describe system X as "multiple-dispatch prototypal blah blah blah" and ultimately unique to X but... understandable
22:55:43 <Sgeo> Hmm, what would multiple-dispatch prototypal look like?
22:55:56 <Sgeo> And am I spelling prototypal correctly?
22:57:00 <LinearInterpol> Sgeo: multiple-dispatch prototypal language? try emerald.
22:59:01 <LinearInterpol> like 99% of the environment isn't even defined in Python.
22:59:34 <Sgeo> I like stack-based except when I don't
22:59:47 <Taneb> Sgeo, how about queue-based?
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23:00:48 <Taneb> Sgeo, there aren't that many queue-based languages
23:01:51 <LinearInterpol> which is scary enough but it does.. allow odd things to happen.
23:06:16 <LinearInterpol> in "Old" you can see I was working on a C port but in the back of my head I slowly said "nooooooooooo"
23:06:39 -!- FreeFull has joined.
23:16:21 <kmc> IOCCC 2013 results are in: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2013
23:17:05 -!- kmc has set topic: SURLYSPAWN is part of the ANGRYNEIGHBOR family of radar retro-reflectors. | 22nd IOCCC results: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2013 | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
23:19:31 <Bike> "This one-line C program accepts as a first command-line argument the last name of any of the last 31 US Presidents (from Franklin Pierce onwards), in lower case, and prints out their political affiliation."
23:20:58 <Bike> main(int riguing,char**acters){puts(1[acters-~!(*(int*)1[acters]%4796%275%riguing)]);}
23:27:51 <Taneb> I can almost see how that works
23:28:49 <Bike> i'm just glad i can get s far as understaning that 1[bullshit] is the same as bullshit[1].
23:29:01 <Taneb> Well, depending on how much I have misremembered the C spec, riging would always be 2 or 3
23:29:35 <LinearInterpol> god, why did we make a competiton for the most eye-bleedingly horrid C program.
23:29:36 <Bike> wait isn't it jsut argc
23:29:43 <Bike> um because it rules??
23:30:12 <fizzie> I, on the other hand, can't understand how it took me this long to understand where "riguing" and "acters" came from.
23:30:16 <Bike> Also, according to the hint.html it works with a different argc
23:30:18 <Taneb> So, it's taking the first argument, casting it from a string to a pointer of ints
23:30:50 <Taneb> Or... it's casting 1 to a pointer to ints?
23:31:07 <Taneb> It sounds like it's based on the first 4 characters
23:31:35 <mauke> oh, it takes 3 arguments
23:31:38 <mauke> that makes more sense
23:31:49 <mauke> I was wondering what it was doing with argv[2]/argv[3]
23:32:13 <Taneb> I guess ~!(*(int*)1[acters]%4796%275%riguing) must end up either -1 or -2?
23:32:33 <Bike> "This entry takes a BMP image file of hand-drawn (mouse-drawn?) text, specified as the first command-line parameter, and converts it to an ASCII text document. " very nice.
23:32:40 <Bike> LinearInterpol: http://ioccc.org/2013/cable1/hint.html
23:32:43 <oerjan> <LinearInterpol> god, why did we make a competiton for the most eye-bleedingly horrid C program. <-- you're asking this in a channel that has at least two previous winners...
23:32:45 <mauke> if you assume 2's complement, -b is ~b+1
23:32:55 <Taneb> oerjan, I know Gregor, but who else?
23:32:59 <fizzie> It's kind of cheaty how it needs the outputs as arguments.
23:33:12 <Taneb> When did he win/what for?
23:33:14 <mauke> thus -~x is ~~x+1 is x+1
23:33:50 <Taneb> I've thought about entering but keep realising I know nought about C
23:34:02 * oerjan hits LinearInterpol with the saucepan as the closest available approximation ===\__/
23:34:06 <Bike> "Newcomers to C find it hard to learn all those different ways to control flow: for, while, if, do, goto, continue, break and heaven knows what else! So, in this program we only use for, so absolute beginners can get into the code straight away." thank goodness.
23:34:47 <Bike> "main is the most useful function in all of C - so it is a mystery to the author why most programs use it only once. Here we use it over and over for maximum benefit."
23:35:51 <Bike> http://ioccc.org/2013/cable2/cable2.c it's... it's so beautiful.
23:36:10 <mauke> erl -e 'map{map{print int(rand()*8);}(0..16);print chr(10);}(0..30);' | tr '[0-4]' ' '| ./birken
23:36:22 <mauke> this is exactly the kind of bullshit people need to stop writing in perl
23:36:24 <Bike> and includes #define $ for("IOCCC" #include...
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23:37:37 <Bike> "This entry weighs in at a magical 4043 bytes (8086 nibbles, 28,301 bits). It manages to implement most of the hardware in a 1980’s era IBM-PC using a few hundred fewer bits than the total number of transistors used to implement the original 8086 CPU."
23:37:39 <mauke> for (0..30) { for (0..16) { print int rand 8; } print "\n"; }
23:38:17 <oerjan> Taneb: tromp_ won in the 2012 contest, and i'd say for implementing an esolang.
23:38:19 <Bike> "If you like living on the edge you can try building the emulator on a big endian machine, and you will get an emulation of a big endian 8086," hsh
23:38:41 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, I see
23:38:51 <Taneb> I was working on something vaguely similar that overused gmp
23:39:44 <Bike> –64[T=1[O=32[L=(X=*Y&7)&1,o=X/2&1,l]=0,t=(c=y)&7,a=c/8&7,Y]>>6,g=~-T?y:(n)y,d=BX=y,l]
23:40:36 <Bike> is there an ioccc entry that compresses c source by making it incomprehensible
23:40:46 <mauke> ~-T is an amusing way to test for 1
23:41:04 <kmc> Bike: well there's a C compiler
23:41:12 <kmc> http://bellard.org/otcc/
23:41:24 <kmc> Fabrice Motherfucking Bellard
23:43:33 <mauke> int *Q,u,i,c,k,B,r=0,w,n,F=0,x,J,u,m,p,s=0,v,e,r,L,a,z,y,D,o,g;
23:43:54 <mauke> I like the completely useless =0 in there
23:44:51 <int-e> It improves the readability of the code.
23:45:02 <olsner> Brwn and Jmpsver aren't nice words without the 0s
23:45:12 <myname> is this supposed to do something?
23:46:24 <int-e> Well, first of all it's supposed to impress the IOCCC judges.
23:47:26 <kmc> shachaf: http://twitpic.com/dr4b32
23:50:08 <Bike> myname: the quickbrownfox one is an OCR program.
23:51:18 <Bike> oh hey, there's a Lazy K implementation.
23:51:24 <Bike> "We liked this entry because it can serve as a standalone program as well as an include file"
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23:53:40 <Bike> "Huge memory may be required to compile the program (about 300 MB on my machine)" uh
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23:59:17 <Bike> "Shaders are written in an interpreted language that supports basic arithmetic, a few math functions, variables and procedural call in the CPS (Continuation Passing Style)."
23:59:22 <Bike> just gonna keep quoting crap
00:04:26 <Bike> "Finally, if you lost track of how many misaka.c you have stacked together, you can feed the source to a brainfuck interpreter to get a overview of how the programs are stacked" help
00:08:28 <kmc> Bike: yeah recursively calling main() is an old trick
00:09:07 <nooodl> "Nevertheless, the program was too big to meet the IOCCC’s size rule. So I created a smaller bootstrap program that generates the main program. prog.c contains fragments of the main program as a comment which iocccsize -i does not count."
00:09:07 <kmc> and C++ forbids it!!! those bastards
00:10:16 <Bike> kmc: weird, why?
00:10:22 <myname> are there videos about them presentating their code?
00:11:26 <kmc> Bike: i'm not really sure why. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4518598/is-it-legal-to-recurse-into-main-in-c/4519407#4519407 says a little about it
00:11:27 <mauke> Bike: main isn't really a function in C++
00:11:39 <kmc> it has implementation-defined linkage
00:11:39 <mauke> it doesn't follow the usual language rules
00:11:55 <kmc> I guess on many platforms it is effectively extern "C" implicitly?
00:12:00 <mauke> no name mangling, two possible implementations (but no overloading)
00:12:01 <kmc> you can't take its address either
00:12:08 <kmc> ah yeah that too
00:12:27 <kmc> ah the lengths to which we go to make C++ sort of a superset of C
00:12:54 <kmc> clearly they should have gone the Java route and required you to implement a class Main with an int operator()(int argc, char **argv)
00:12:57 <mauke> C++ is a superset of a subset of C
00:13:09 <kmc> `addquote <mauke> C++ is a superset of a subset of C
00:13:13 <HackEgo> 1157) <mauke> C++ is a superset of a subset of C
00:13:18 <mauke> or rather: the intersection of C++ and C is non-empty
00:13:55 <myname> mauke: only if the named subset of C is non-empty
00:14:30 <mauke> it is, hence the strengthening
00:15:37 <nooodl> http://ioccc.org/2013/misaka/hint.html ok this one is just amazing
00:16:46 <Bike> don't forget to look at thea ctual program
00:17:04 <nooodl> this might be my fav entry and i haven't even seen them all
00:17:14 <kmc> ow my brain
00:17:51 <Bike> also i'm glad i wasn't the only one who imagined horizontal cat, lol
00:18:15 <mauke> "Getting the code down to <= 4096 characters to meet the IOCCC rule 2 overall size limit required a good deal of effort (and appreciable risk of divorce)"
00:18:56 <nooodl> mauke: which one's that from?
00:19:48 <nooodl> i love when you're wondering "gosh what does this program even DO?" and then you see something like
00:19:51 <nooodl> I n t,e,l[80186],*E,m,u,L,a,T,o,r[1<<21],
00:22:28 <nooodl> wow this is an 8086 emulator in 8086 nibbles of C
00:22:57 <FireFly> At least the variable declarations are descriptive
00:23:01 <FireFly> as in, they describe the program
00:23:26 <kmc> nooodl: actually it's a full PC emulator
00:26:50 <Jafet> Is Don Yang just going to submit one of the programs on his website every year
00:26:55 <mauke> for(my $i = 0; $i <= $#d; $i++)
00:27:05 <mauke> why do we let these people write perl
00:27:24 <mauke> open my $file, "<$opt"
00:27:33 <mauke> $expected = join '', <$file>; AAAARGH
00:33:27 <nooodl> mauke: i don't know any perl; what's wrong with those
00:33:49 <mauke> first one should be: for my $i (0 .. $#d)
00:34:05 <mauke> basically, you don't use C-style for loops in perl unless you have a very good reason
00:34:36 <nooodl> ah yeah. ruby's like that too
00:34:41 <mauke> and the <= in the condition isn't idiomatic C either
00:35:17 <mauke> second, I noticed that the author used -w instead of 'use warnings'
00:35:18 <nooodl> i guess $#d is the length of @d? it looks a lot like an off-by-one error
00:35:28 <kmc> $#d is the last index in @d because Perl
00:35:36 <kmc> but @d used as a scalar is the length of @d
00:35:47 <mauke> which is kind of OK if you want to stay compatible with perls before 5.6.0, released in 2000
00:36:03 <mauke> but then they use 'open my $file', which requires at least 5.6.0
00:36:15 <nooodl> let me guess. @foo[$#foo] is a perl idiom
00:36:34 <mauke> but then they use 2-arg open, which you have no business using because starting from 5.6.0 perl supports 3-arg open
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00:36:38 <mauke> so the whole thing is a clusterfuck
00:36:52 <mauke> join '', <$file> is a really inefficient way to read the whole file into a string
00:36:56 <kmc> note that the last index in @d could be anything, because you can globally change the starting index for arrays, using $[
00:37:00 <mauke> nooodl: no, that's terrible
00:37:04 <mauke> nooodl: the idiom is $foo[-1]
00:37:34 <kmc> lol well that's fine then
00:37:54 <olsner> not only can the starting index be anything, it can be different in different places? this is great
00:37:59 <mauke> assignment to $[ is treated as a compiler pragma and has been since 5.0
00:38:20 <mauke> and it's lexically scoped so other modules can't fuck up your script
00:38:34 <myname> olsner: wondering what happens if you pass such arrays around
00:38:36 <mauke> (officially deprecated since 5.12)
00:39:00 <mauke> myname: nothing. $[ affects indexing operations, not the data structure
00:39:15 <olsner> myname: perl, that's what happens
00:39:35 <myname> could you make arrays starting at -1?
00:39:47 <nooodl> i swear perl is like a 20-something-year-old regularly looking back at its teens, thinking, "god. why did i do all of these dumb things. now i gotta deal with that"
00:39:55 <myname> so a[-2] is the last element?
00:40:20 <mauke> it's crazy, but in a sane way
00:40:35 <olsner> does $[ have to be an integer?
00:40:36 <nooodl> oh if you set $[ to 1, a[0] is the last element?
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00:41:03 <mauke> ooh, I didn't know this: if you 'use v5.16' explicitly, $[ simply stops working
00:41:09 <myname> fantastic to toggle between two values
00:41:13 <mauke> because WTF are you even doing, touching $[
00:41:20 <myname> make an array with both, change $[, access a[0]
00:41:57 <nooodl> god. i need an obfuscated perl code contest in my life
00:42:18 <nooodl> does that ex--ah. of course it exists
00:42:37 <mauke> you'll probably get more "oh god please no" out of golf contests
00:44:02 <mauke> myname: re: "why", it's probably to make awk programmers feel at home
00:44:09 <mauke> and I wouldn't be surprised if a2p uses it
00:45:39 <mauke> IIRC there was a popular algorithms book that used int foo_[20]; int *foo = &foo_[-1]; to be able to use foo as a 1-based array in C
00:46:00 <mauke> (this code has undefined behavior)
00:46:28 <Bike> fizzie mentioned some code he dealt with that did that (plus typedefs)
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01:05:58 <zzo38> mauke: I have used something like that once I think, but (foo_-1) instead of like that, and a macro rather than another variable.
01:06:28 <zzo38> Yes, I know it is still undefined on some computers
01:06:41 <mauke> s/on some computers//
01:06:52 <zzo38> Which have hardware pointer datatypes, for example, and maybe some VMs as well
01:07:00 <mauke> computers are irrelevant
01:07:06 <mauke> you're not writing computer code, you're writing C
01:07:47 <zzo38> But even in such a case, hopefully the compiler should optimize out the -1 or move it around, since it can be more efficient that way anyways.
01:08:17 <zzo38> I don't normally do that though (I think I only did once), and yes I know it is undefined.
01:08:46 <mauke> no, in such a case the compiler should optimize out the whole statement
01:09:05 <mauke> because it has no semantics
01:09:19 <mauke> and no code runs faster than some code
01:09:30 <zzo38> Yes, that would be a valid thing for it to do and agree with the C specification, I suppose.
01:10:36 <zzo38> But it doesn't seem very sensible to do that automatically without being able to change it with an option (at least for targets where it is defined)
01:10:54 <mauke> I don't know what you're thinking in but it's not C
01:11:26 <zzo38> Yes, I know in C it isn't defined.
01:12:09 <zzo38> But in some targets it is defined in the reasonable way, because of the way the CPU instruction set works, the pointers are just treated as numbers.
01:12:23 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/ubfun-1.c
01:14:33 <zzo38> What does %hd mean?
01:15:07 <mauke> short int in decimal format
01:15:38 <olsner> do you have to use h when sending shorts? don't they get expanded to ints?
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01:16:22 <mauke> I'm not sure, actually
01:17:05 <mauke> anyway, the code has undefined behavior
01:17:16 <mauke> it behaves differently under gcc -O0 and gcc -O2
01:19:20 * oerjan discovers that walter pinkus's middle name is haskell
01:19:41 <zzo38> mauke: How does it behave?
01:20:00 <olsner> it behaves undefinedly :)
01:20:17 <mauke> zzo38: try it and see :-)
01:20:31 <zzo38> What does it do on your computer?
01:20:38 <Jafet> mauke: what if he gets the same behaviour
01:20:55 <mauke> then that would be interesting
01:21:36 <Jafet> Advanced compiler optimizations: we remove code that you intended to run
01:22:25 <zzo38> Shouldn't it print negative numbers? Or is the proper thing to do, something else?
01:23:30 <Sgeo> Are there any maill systems out there that still can't handle high 8 bits?
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01:24:56 <Jafet> (“Are there still systems that...” “Yes”)
01:30:13 <int-e> mauke: Hmm, I get the same behaviour (with gcc 4.8.2), even with -fstrict-overflow
01:30:53 <int-e> (in particular, no infinite loop)
01:30:58 <mauke> ooh, this seems to be new in 4.8
01:31:14 <mauke> older versions generated an infinite loop
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01:36:17 <Jafet> It could be argued that creating an infinite loop is a pessimization
02:00:12 <int-e> Well, that's not what was happening. The compiler removed a test that it could prove would always succeed unless the program invoked some sort of undefined behaviour (in this case, signed integer arithmetic underflow).
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02:21:32 <myname> there should be more regex games
02:21:55 <olsner> some of the later ones require loads of perl extensions to the regexpes
02:23:02 <Bike> "This doesn't really work as a tutorial. Not really clear what you're supposed to do here."
02:23:06 <Bike> is there backtracking required
02:23:30 <Bike> allochirally, good word
02:23:39 <FireFly> olsner: well, it uses JS' engine, so it can't use too many Perl extensions
02:23:51 <FireFly> JS regexp doesn't even support lookbehinds
02:24:18 <Bike> oh. this one is titled 'backrefs'.
02:24:28 <Bike> page closed, unfollowed, detweeted, called the cops
02:25:39 <mauke> it says "regex", not "regular expression"
02:26:27 <Bike> do i have to call the cops on yout too
02:27:15 <myname> 4 is pretty simple, though
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02:30:36 <myname> 5 would be easy if you could change the columns
02:32:55 <mauke> 5 is easy but my solution is inelegant
02:33:58 <mauke> oh god, 6 is worse
02:34:33 <mauke> brute force again, I guess
02:34:42 <myname> i am kinda stuck at 5 :(
02:34:54 <myname> i could do negative lookahead or the like
02:35:07 <myname> but i never ever recall what they look like
02:35:33 <mauke> oh god, the prime thing
02:35:35 <FireFly> I know I've seen a regex for 7, but I can't remember how it worked
02:35:39 <mauke> fortunately it's easy
02:35:48 <myname> i assume the prime thing should be easy
02:35:52 <mauke> call me if they're looking for fibonacci sequences
02:36:55 <myname> does this even support negative lookahead?
02:37:19 <FireFly> <FireFly> JS regexp doesn't even support lookbehinds
02:37:21 <Bike> can i get a regex to recognize fibonacci sequences like abccdddeeeeeffffffff of any length, and with any characters
02:37:28 <FireFly> Oh, you mean as in (?!)? yes, that's supported
02:37:28 <myname> lookbehind does not matter
02:37:44 <myname> why doesn't my sollution work, then
02:37:54 <mauke> Bike: I can recognize "x x xx xxx xxxxx" etc
02:39:06 <myname> apparently, i'm too stupid for lookahead assertions
02:41:10 <Bike> i don't know, that's why i'm asking!
02:41:38 <myname> i am pretty sure, there has to be a ?! at number 5
02:41:45 <myname> i just can't assemble it
02:43:06 <mauke> myname: http://p3rl.org/perlretut
02:45:54 <myname> mauke: i know how they work, i think
02:58:48 <myname> so... [^\2] does not work`
03:18:50 <myname> great, it seems to not knot conditions
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04:01:37 <augur> Slereah: since those are supposed to be anubis things
04:01:42 <augur> they're technically not jackals at all
04:02:09 <augur> or at least they're not depicting jackals!
04:02:10 <kmc> well jacktually,
04:11:26 <kmc> can i just start adding ##crypto quotes here
04:11:57 <kmc> they don't have a crypto quote bot and it's sad
04:12:14 <kmc> although lambdabot is there so maybe it's more appropriate
04:18:52 <preflex> <lament> and facing a choice between perl and mircscript, i'd gladly shoot myself
04:22:41 <preflex> <vec|code> scroll lock is a letter in the canadian language
04:25:14 <zzo38> Are there 2D and 3D implementations of PADsynth?
04:28:09 <zzo38> The description of PADsynth is: 1. Add together several bell curves with differing mean, variance, and amplitude (specified as parameters to the algorithm), to fill up the amplitude table. 2. Fill up the phase table with random data. 3. Make the inverse Fourier transform.
04:29:04 <zzo38> What other synthesis algorithms are there with a kind of relative simplicity?
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04:36:06 <Sgeo> http://moviecode.tumblr.com/image/72105358714
04:36:20 <Sgeo> Sample code? That seems a bit monotonous
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04:41:35 <Bike> http://moviecode.tumblr.com/ finally
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04:56:05 <kmc> "In the film Elysium the space station is rebooted using code taken directly from the Intel Architecture Software Developer’s Manual Volume 3: System Development"
04:56:08 <kmc> seems accurate
04:58:12 <Sgeo> I'm kind of shocked that Uplink has gotten any kind of update
04:59:11 <Sgeo> (There's now an iPad version)
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05:32:13 <Sgeo> "I drank a chemistry experiment in class once. I forget the exact nature of the experiment, but I do remember that if we did it
05:32:14 <Sgeo> correctly, we ended up with plain old salt water. We must have done it mostly correct, because other than a mild burning for
05:32:14 <Sgeo> about an hour after, I was fine. Teacher flipped her shiat though. My lab partners threw me under the bus. All through the
05:32:14 <Sgeo> experiment, they were like , "C'mon...drink it...DRINK IT! I dare ya!" and then when the teacher got mad, they did a 180 and
05:32:15 <Sgeo> were all like, "She did it man, it was HER idea!". I got an F on that particular lab assignment."
05:32:50 <Bike> student does dumb thing
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05:34:40 <Sgeo> I had homeroom in a science classroom, and someone spit in the teacher's drink, so I told the teacher not to drink it. Later was told what a good thing I did, especially since it could have been anything in there, and asked me if I knew what it was. Spit.
05:35:10 <Sgeo> Which I guess is a thing to avoid consuming, but probably not as ... dangerous as they were thinking
05:38:52 <zzo38> It was almost the timestamp 1388813888 according to some computers. It repeating in twice
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08:10:20 <kmc> zzo38: nice
08:10:54 <kmc> zzo38: have you seen https://twitter.com/megasecond
08:13:21 <coppro> I just upgraded my libc to sid apparently
08:13:46 <coppro> on the plus side, the thing I was trying to get working is
08:14:36 <kmc> too bad there's no way to run daemons or cronjobs on HackEgo
08:14:51 <kmc> because i think megaseconds should be announced in here
08:16:05 <kmc> in big rainbow ascii art perhaps
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08:21:28 <Sgeo> Is there any correlation between a game being difficult for computers and being fun for humans.
08:21:38 <Sgeo> I guess a lot of unfun for humans games are easy for computers
08:21:51 <Sgeo> But I mean, like chess and go, computers have more difficulty with Go
08:22:12 <Sgeo> I guess I'm imagining 'computers are good at it' to indicate 'semi-trivial strategy'
08:22:15 <kmc> yeah although they're pretty good at go now as well
08:22:19 <Sgeo> Althouhg that's obviously false for chess
08:22:31 <Sgeo> Although iiuc chess strategy does have some trivial parts
08:22:34 <Sgeo> memorized openings
08:22:51 <shachaf> trivial means there exists a computer program to do it
08:24:16 <zzo38> kmc: I have not seen.
08:24:49 <zzo38> Make up your own megaseconds announcement if you prefer to
08:25:26 <kmc> Sgeo: do you think that go is more fun than chess?
08:25:41 <Sgeo> It's been a very long time since I tried chess
08:25:51 <Sgeo> I kind of don't want to try it again, not sure why
08:26:04 <Sgeo> So I don't really think I can compare too well
08:27:40 <zzo38> There are games other than chess and go, such as shogi.
08:27:59 <zzo38> And there is Fischerandom chess
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08:31:18 <kmc> well you can appeal to some idea that tree pruning heuristics are more fun than exhaustive search, but a game can exceed the human ability for exhaustive search and still be easy for computers
08:31:55 <kmc> it's not clear that additional computer-hardness past that point changes a human player's subjective experience that the game has deep strategy
08:40:47 <mroman> apparantely chess has lots of memorizing positions
08:40:56 <mroman> there's a sirlin article on that I think
08:43:04 <coppro> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/17005/produce-the-number-2014-without-any-numbers-in-your-source-code
08:45:37 <mroman> `python "print int(`len('aaaaaaa')`+'de',len('bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb'))"
08:45:41 <HackEgo> python: can't open file '"print int(`len('aaaaaaa')`+'de',len('bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb'))"': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
08:45:47 <mroman> `python run "print int(`len('aaaaaaa')`+'de',len('bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb'))"
08:45:48 <HackEgo> python: can't open file 'run "print int(`len('aaaaaaa')`+'de',len('bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb'))"': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
08:46:03 <mroman> Golfing is always interesting.
08:47:00 <HackEgo> olist (936): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
08:51:23 <kmc> `run python -c "print sum(ord(c) for c in 'Happy new year to you!')"
08:52:49 <mroman> Who's gonna beat that?
08:55:07 <kmc> `run python -c "print sum(map('Happy new year to you!'))"
08:55:09 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ TypeError: map() requires at least two args
08:55:13 <kmc> `run python -c "print sum(map(ord, 'Happy new year to you!'))"
08:55:29 <shachaf> imo > sum . map ord $ "..."
08:55:59 <kmc> > sum$map ord"Happy new year to you!"
08:56:23 <kmc> > ord<$>"Happy new year to you!"
08:56:25 <lambdabot> [72,97,112,112,121,32,110,101,119,32,121,101,97,114,32,116,111,32,121,111,11...
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09:48:02 <mroman> How many modulos does one need to reconstruct the original number?
09:48:44 <mroman> i.e 2014 % 2 = 0, 2014 % 3 = 1; 2014 % 4 = 2; 2014 % 5 = 4 and so on
09:49:02 <mroman> which gives you the numbers 0,1,2,4,...
09:49:17 <Bike> And you want to know how many of those numbers you need to reconstruct 2014 uniquely?
09:49:48 <shachaf> you just need one, as long as it's bigger than 2014
09:49:51 <Bike> If your moduli are coprime, you can uniquely reconstruct a count of numbers that is the product of the moduli.
09:50:08 <Bike> For instance if your moduli are 2, 3, and 5, you can have 2*3*5 = 30 unique numbers.
09:50:13 <Bike> (after that they'll start repeating)
09:50:41 <Bike> (0 mod 2 = 0, 0 mod 3 = 0, 0 mod 5 = 0; 30 mod 2 = 0, 30 mod 3 = 0, 30 mod 5 = 0)
09:50:57 <Bike> Is that what you mean?
09:51:37 <Bike> what else do you want to know
09:52:07 <mroman> How many numbers do I need to reconstruct (uniquely) any given number
09:52:27 <Bike> seeing as how there are infinitely many numbers.
09:53:14 <Bike> doesn't matter. if you're not specifying an upper range you're out of luck.
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09:53:56 <Bike> try writing out the integers mod certain numbers. 2: 0, 1, 0, 1... 3: 0, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, ... 4: 0, 1, 2, 3, 0, 1, 2, 3, 0, 1, 2, 3,...
09:54:06 <mroman> where f is a function that tells me how many numbers I'd need to reconstruct x
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09:55:06 <Bike> then shachaf knows the answer.
09:55:37 <mroman> he cheated with "as long as it's bigger"
09:55:58 <Bike> cheated? you didn't say anything bout the moduli
09:56:22 <Bike> do you want to have the moduli be contiguous and starting at 2?
09:56:36 <Bike> "of course", he says
09:56:43 <mroman> That's the whole point
09:56:52 <Bike> they're not coprime so it's some bullshit. look up the chinese remainder theorem.
09:56:59 <Bike> it would be much more sensible to use only prime moduli.
09:57:51 <Bike> in which case you need, let's see, five.
09:58:06 <Bike> > 2 * 3 * 5 * 7 * 11
09:58:43 <Bike> > (2014 `mod` 2, 2014 `mod` 3, 2014 `mod` 5, 2014 `mod` 7, 2014 `mod` 11)
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10:42:01 <Bike> that's about 11.1 bits if you're wondering, very ehhhhh
10:42:17 <mroman> now I need to be convinced that mod 4 does not provide more information than mod 2
10:42:26 <mroman> which I assume it does not
10:42:42 <Bike> well, it does.
10:42:53 <Bike> i mean, obviously 3 and 1 are distinct under mod 4 and not under mod 2.
10:43:33 <mroman> but can it reduce the required numbers to 4 instead of 5 for 2014
10:43:34 <Bike> it's when you use them at the same time that things get redundant.
10:43:37 <mroman> given that you don't start at 2
10:43:46 <mroman> but can choose 4 moduli you like < 2014
10:43:59 <Bike> oh, well sure i guess. 3, 4, 5, 7, and 11 are still coprime
10:44:23 <mroman> is coprime gdt(a,b) = 1?
10:44:46 <mroman> so Teilerfremd in German :)
10:44:47 <Bike> just means they don't share any factors; primes are coprime with everything
10:46:57 <mroman> that should let me uniquely reconstruct 2014 with 4 numbers?
10:48:52 <mroman> If the moduli is > x/2 it's pretty obvious you only need one
10:49:27 <mroman> for the "pick yourself a moduli" case
10:49:53 <Bike> if you have one modulus of 1008 you can't distinguish 1006 and 2014
10:51:10 <Bike> basically you're not going to represent 2014 in any useful sense without being able to represent at least 2015 distinct numbers :p
10:51:54 <mroman> I'm experimenting with "probabilistic compression algorithms" or whatever you call them
10:52:10 <Bike> lossy compression?
10:52:35 <mroman> It's basically an "underdefined" equation
10:53:09 <mroman> I.e. you can't reconstruct the data uniquely
10:53:32 <mroman> but you can construct all possible solutions
10:53:39 <mroman> one of them then is the actual original data
10:54:19 <mroman> given that it is english text
10:54:28 <mroman> you can do an text-analysis on all solutions
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10:54:42 <mroman> and reconstruct the original data pretty well
10:56:13 <mroman> You may tell me now how stupid that is ;)
10:57:04 <mroman> another approach is to predict the future
10:57:22 <mroman> and then only transmit information if the actual outcome wasn't the same as the prediction
10:57:37 <mroman> so you actually transmit a "difference" of the actual data to the "prediction"
10:58:37 <mroman> but you might as well use something more sane like huffman or lz or whatever
11:00:19 <mroman> (underdefined == not well enough defined)
11:00:25 <mroman> Not sure if that's an actual english word
11:01:39 <Bike> it's well enough defined :p
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11:10:28 <mroman> `run "echo 2014 | python -c 'print input()'"
11:10:30 <HackEgo> bash: echo 2014 | python -c 'print input()': command not found
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13:11:50 <HackEgo> [U+0669 ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT NINE]
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13:12:18 <mroman> `unicode ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT EIGHT
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13:14:31 <fizzie> `run for d in one two three four five six seven eight nine; do unicode "$(echo arabic-indic digit $d | tr a-z A-Z)"; done | tr -d '\n'
13:16:01 <fizzie> ٦ looks more like a 7 to me. Such foolishness.
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13:17:37 <fizzie> `unicode arabic-INDIC digit ZERO
13:17:43 <fizzie> I guess it wasn't case-sensitive after all.
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13:41:54 <FireFly> `wget ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
13:41:55 <HackEgo> --2014-01-04 13:41:55-- ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ => `UnicodeData.txt' \ Resolving ftp.unicode.org... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `ftp.unicode.org'
13:49:45 <fizzie> I think someone might've done that already, also.
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14:12:44 <fizzie> Possibly not, I can't find any traces of it.
14:26:58 <myname> is there a certain bound subset of bf known to be turing complete?
14:27:43 <myname> finite registers would be nicest, but i really doubt thst
14:27:50 <mauke> yeah, if you have bigints
14:27:56 <mauke> you only need like 6 cells or something
14:28:10 <Taneb> mauke, oerjan proved 3 cells with bigint
14:28:35 <Taneb> You can do it with 1-bit cells if you have infinite cells, I think
14:29:08 <Slereah> 1-bit cells are in bitchanger and boolfuck
14:29:09 <oerjan> Taneb: yes that's boolfuck
14:29:28 <Taneb> Those are the two extremes
14:29:51 <Taneb> Is it proven that two unbounded cells is sub-TC?
14:30:32 <oerjan> well i never wrote up a proof
14:31:18 <oerjan> but the fact ending a loop forces one cell to be zero means you have not very much more than a single cell to use
14:32:08 <oerjan> or maybe we _did_ get a proof during previous discussions of the issue here, i don't quite remember
14:34:27 <oerjan> mauke: the 3-cell proof is in the "Collatz function" article of the wiki (because it's like, a corollary of those)
14:34:58 <myname> mauke: could you elborte
14:35:47 <myname> is there an actual proof of that bigint part
14:36:11 <oerjan> `wiki Collatz function
14:36:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wiki: not found
14:36:17 <oerjan> ^wiki Collatz function
14:36:18 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz function
14:36:46 <oerjan> not very escaping that command
14:37:11 <myname> reduction from fractrn
14:37:20 <myname> would love reading about that
14:38:09 <oerjan> myname: the function for the reduction is in the haskell code further down
14:38:19 <myname> that 3-cell-thing might be handy for proofs
14:39:05 <myname> it should be possible to compile from 3-cell-bf to wolfgang
14:40:56 <myname> have to think on how to handle loops...
14:41:23 <myname> wait, should actually be pretty easy
14:41:35 <myname> i will take a look at it later
14:41:41 <oerjan> myname: if wolfgang can embed state machines, then a 2-register minsky machine or fractran might fit better. 3-cell bf is nice if you only have precisely bf's control flow.
14:42:29 <myname> oerjan: well, i agree, but i have no approach in mind on how to compile fractran to wolfgang
14:42:45 <oerjan> ok 2-register minsky machine then.
14:42:52 <myname> i may have a look at it
14:43:04 <oerjan> it's like the member of the family which has full state machine control
14:45:58 <myname> okay, so i have to proof a) i can resemble a fsa and b) i can increment and decrement on at least 2 registers?
14:46:02 <oerjan> apropos state machines, this regex game y'all linked to is starting to get awkward, i think i need to convert a state machine to solve this triples level
14:46:42 <oerjan> myname: yeah. and also branch on registers reaching zero.
14:46:57 <mauke> finite sets are technically boring
14:47:19 <myname> oerjan: you have to cheat for triples
14:47:41 <oerjan> because i know in _principle_ how to do the conversion.
14:48:08 <oerjan> it's just looking to be large, is all.
14:48:20 <myname> i only know it's possible for binary numbers
14:49:08 <oerjan> myname: calculating modulus wrt any base can be done with an fsa.
14:49:25 <oerjan> and it's particularly easy for 3.
14:49:35 <oerjan> that doesn't mean the regex is nice.
14:49:50 <oerjan> (well i guess binary is even easier.)
14:50:23 <oerjan> it's just the digital root algorithm, really.
14:50:42 <myname> binary can easily be done with 3 states
14:51:07 <oerjan> you mean checking triples in binary?
14:51:19 <oerjan> you only need 3 states regardless of base, anyway.
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14:57:18 <myname> how does a minsky machine actually use the registers?
14:57:47 <myname> is there something like an "increment r1" state?
14:59:20 <oerjan> each state has like a command attached, which is either increment a register, or decrement a register and branch.
15:00:02 <myname> (well, you can simulate nop at least)
15:00:04 <oerjan> nop is sort of useless.
15:01:35 <oerjan> if a state uses nop, you can just remove it and skip directly to its target instead.
15:02:06 <myname> it will still read a char from it's input
15:02:26 <oerjan> um you're thinking of ordinary fsas.
15:02:54 <oerjan> minsky machines don't have i/o other than the initial and final register values.
15:06:29 <FreeFull> http://i.imgur.com/vwbKqAK.png Any way to simplify this using only these kinds of gates? Transistors would be fine
15:06:47 <FreeFull> Or is this the simplest design possible (using NOT, NOR and AND)
15:08:17 * oerjan managed to get the conversion for triples working
15:19:29 * oerjan tweaks it up to 519 points with cheating
15:21:05 <myname> someone told me, 630 are possible
15:21:56 <myname> 630 should be all the words
15:29:40 <Taneb> myname, oerjan what are you talking about?
15:33:32 <fizzie> FreeFull: Is that just a full adder?
15:37:59 <fizzie> Google pops up an arXiv paper of "Single bit full adder design using 8 transistors with novel 3 transistors XNOR gate", if that's what your "transistors would be fine" means.
15:52:25 <FreeFull> That design involves a multiplexer
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16:03:14 <fizzie> Yes, made out of two transistors.
16:03:16 <int-e_> https://gist.github.com/jonathanmorley/8058871 has many regex.alf.nu spoilers (with total score 4069. I had 3850 or so)
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16:04:49 <int-e> In the end I was annoyed by the fact that cheating wins in almost all cases.
16:04:57 <oerjan> 09:57:51:<Bike> in which case you need, let's see, five.
16:04:58 <oerjan> 09:58:06:<Bike> > 2 * 3 * 5 * 7 * 11
16:05:22 <oerjan> > foldl1' lcm [5,7,8,9]
16:06:03 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Sat Jan 4 17:06:03 2014
16:06:51 <oerjan> @tell mroman 5, 7, 8, 9 are enough.
16:07:18 <oerjan> > foldl1' lcm [5,6,7,8]
16:09:18 <int-e> oh. there was a netsplit around that time, tsk.
16:10:05 <oerjan> int-e: i'm pretty sure this was after that netsplit
16:10:26 <oerjan> tunes.org wasn't loading.
16:11:36 <int-e> Ah I failed at applying time zones correctly. Ok.
16:12:06 <oerjan> int-e: the paste is from codu, so utc, anyway.
16:13:45 <int-e> Yes, I figured it out. The @localtime was my mistake.
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16:14:57 <oerjan> @tell mroman the clue is that if you start with a range [1..n], you can throw away all numbers that aren't the largest power of a prime.
16:16:32 <oerjan> @tell mroman hm i'm not entirely sure that always gives the smallest number of numbers. probably, though.
16:17:35 <int-e> > scanl lcm 1 [1..]
16:17:36 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,6,12,60,60,420,840,2520,2520,27720,27720,360360,360360,360360,720720,...
16:17:45 <nooodl> oh no euler spoilers!!!!!!!!
16:18:08 <oerjan> nooodl: actually it doesn't. e.g. 5,6 is better than 2,3,5.
16:18:48 <nooodl> well, 30 is better than 5,6
16:19:19 <nooodl> i guess you have that [1..n] range you need to stay in
16:19:28 <oerjan> nooodl: yes but we also want to minimize the largest number, i think.
16:19:55 <oerjan> otherwise it's trivial to take just the bound you want.
16:20:29 <int-e> Right, let's just compute modulo 2^64 like everybody else does.
16:20:54 <oerjan> 420 is best got with 7*6*5.
16:21:30 <oerjan> @tell mroman actually not always, e.g. for x=420 you get the best by using 5,6,7.
16:22:56 <oerjan> i suspect 2*3 = 6 might be one of the few replacements that can work.
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16:45:25 <int-e> oerjan: for 4084080 (= lcm [1..17]/3) the best possible seems to be 7*11*13*15*16*17.
16:47:35 <int-e> oerjan: note that you did the same thing; 7*6*5 equals 210
16:49:41 <int-e> And by "the same" I mean that you also have a prime power factor that isn't maximal below a chosen n. In your case, 2 <= 7 instead of 4 <= 7.
17:00:45 <oerjan> @tell mroman scratch that last one, i missed the 4
17:01:09 <oerjan> @tell mroman or well, it works for x=210.
17:05:29 <oerjan> int-e: hm well, to get all of the lcm [1..n] you obviously need to include all the prime powers as factors somewhere.
17:07:40 <oerjan> if you have p^i*q^j as factors where p < q, then p^(i+j) must also be a factor somewhere, which means including it with q is redundant. so you never save anything by including non-prime-powers.
17:07:58 <int-e> oerjan: yes. but that lcm [1..n] sequence is very coarse.
17:08:25 <oerjan> yeah especially if n is prime.
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17:28:48 <int-e> Oh good. If the cipher mode for dm-crypt is given as <cipher>-plain, the kernel translates that to <cipher>-cbc-plain. I wish that fact was properly documented (I expected a hint in Documentation/device-mapper/dm-crypto.txt).
17:31:30 <int-e> (man cryptsetup has such a hint: "--cipher, -c: set cipher specification string. Usually, this is "aes-cbc-plain". For pre-2.6.10 kernels, use "aes-plain" as they don’t understand the new cipher spec strings. [...]". However, I only found that after reading the kernel sources...)
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17:39:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: factors: not found
17:39:51 <mroman> how did that work again?
17:40:15 <HackEgo> 65536: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
17:40:20 <fizzie> (It's a relatively standard utility.)
17:41:09 <fizzie> (Not quite POSIXly standard, but part of GNU coreutils at least.)
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17:45:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: factors: not found
17:47:39 <HackEgo> factor: ``echo 1`' is not a valid positive integer
17:47:45 <int-e> `eval factor `echo 1`
17:47:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eval: not found
17:48:26 <int-e> `run factor `dc <<<'2 64^1+p'`
17:48:28 <HackEgo> factor: `18446744073709551617' is too large
17:51:00 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't think HackEgo comes with PARI/GP installed.
17:52:33 <int-e> > let n=2^64+1;r x y|f>1&&f<n = (f,n`div`f)|otherwise=r(s x)(s(s y))where{f=gcd(x-y)n};s x=(x^2+1)`mod`n in r 3 3
17:52:48 <int-e> > 274177*67280421310721
17:53:40 <int-e> `run factor 67280421310721; factor 274177
17:53:41 <HackEgo> 67280421310721: 67280421310721 \ 274177: 274177
17:54:07 <fizzie> I have this strangest feeling we just factored 2^64+1 the other day, on-channel.
17:57:13 <int-e> Ah, the smallest prime factor of 2^128+1 is a bit too big for Pollard's rho method to be effective. Pity.
17:59:06 <boily> > (2 ** 1 + 1) * (2 ** 2 + 1) * (2 ** 4 + 1) * (2 ** 8 + 1)
17:59:32 <boily> > (2 ** 1 + 1) * (2 ** 2 + 1) * (2 ** 4 + 1) * (2 ** 8 + 1) * (2 ** 16 + 1)
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17:59:57 <int-e> if you'd use ^ rather than ** you'd get integer results.
18:00:21 <int-e> > product [2^(2^i)+1 | i <- [0..4]]
18:00:45 <boily> my Python's slipping, I can't remember which exponentiation operator to use, and I'm eating leftover coleslaw.
18:01:19 <int-e> oh. it's ** in Python.
18:01:54 <int-e> `run python -c 'print (2 ** 1 + 1) * (2 ** 2 + 1) * (2 ** 4 + 1) * (2 ** 8 + 1) * (2 ** 16 + 1)'
18:04:17 <int-e> It's Haskell that needs three operators to harness the power of exponentiation.
18:04:54 <Bike> the power... or curse (flips hair dramatically)
18:05:28 <int-e> I only said it for the pun.
18:05:43 <Bike> oh. uh. me too
18:05:54 <boily> all I want is to exponiate, not to get mired in the Cursed Swamp of Mathematically Correct Operators.
18:06:22 <int-e> > let x = 0/0 in x == x
18:07:30 <int-e> > let x = 0; y = -0 in (x == y, 1/x == 1/y)
18:07:49 <int-e> But to be fair, the Haskell designers didn't make up those rules.
18:07:53 <mroman> Does math say -0 == 0?
18:08:24 <mroman> or probably like it's with math -0 == 0 for some math and -0 <> 0 for some other math .
18:08:29 <int-e> But yes, math does, too, because 0+0 = 0, so 0 is the additive inverse of 0.
18:09:45 <int-e> Well, "math". This is true for any group (the neutral element is its own inverse), and in particular for the additive group in rings.
18:10:07 <boily> ~eval (1 / 0, -1 / 0)
18:10:58 <boily> ~eval let x = 0; y = -0 in ((x :: Int) == (y :: Int), (x :: Double) == (y :: Double))
18:11:05 <int-e> x = y -> f(x) = f(y) is something mathematicians tend to expect from equality. So that failure (= not being a congruence relation) is pretty bad.
18:11:43 <boily> equality is hard. let's do something different!
18:13:21 <fizzie> > let x = 0/0 in (x > 1, x == 1, x < 1)
18:13:30 <int-e> Of course dividing by 0 is also generally frowned upon, because you will necessarily lose the ring structure :)
18:15:55 <int-e> @tell oerjan Btw, re-reading GG is totally worth it. There are so many small details to rediscover, not to mention some significant plot developments that I have forgotten over the years.
18:23:14 <boily> myname: it may be Girl Genius. hth.
18:24:21 <myname> > let x = 1 / 0; y = - 1 / 0 in (x > y, x < y, x == y)
18:32:03 <int-e> boily is right as usual.
18:34:47 <metasepia> CYQB 041800Z 03008KT 30SM FEW022 BKN080 BKN095 M18/M23 A3018 RMK SC2AC3AS2 SLP230
18:34:56 <boily> today is a hot day. -18 °C!
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18:41:32 <boily> myname: in CANADA!
18:41:41 <boily> norway is warmer this time of the year.
18:42:00 <myname> "come to canada. we have great summers. last year, it was a tuesday"
18:42:23 <metasepia> ENGM 041820Z 21007KT 9999 -DZ FEW012 SCT016 BKN025 04/04 Q0997 NOSIG
18:43:27 <metasepia> KBGR 041753Z 19006KT 10SM BKN110 M13/M18 A3031 RMK AO2 SLP273 4/024 60000 T11281183 11128 21289 56039
18:45:32 <FireFly> Still above zero, I suppose?
18:45:35 <metasepia> ESSA 041820Z 23009KT 9999 SCT007 BKN010 05/04 Q1002 R01L/29//95 R08/29//95 R01R/29//95 TEMPO BKN015
18:45:52 <boily> you wimps with above-zero wintemperatures...
18:47:09 <FireFly> Almost all of december has been considerably warmer than average
18:47:29 <FireFly> http://www.smhi.se/klimatdata/meteorologi/2.1353/dailyTable.php?par=tmpAvvDay&yr=2013&mon=12
18:49:17 <olsner> wow, 10 degrees warmer than normal in almost all of norrland
18:56:47 <metasepia> EFHK 041850Z 13008KT 6000 -RASN BKN003 01/01 Q1004 NOSIG
18:57:13 <fizzie> The newspaper said Russian tourists (of which there are many this time of year) have been very disappointed with the mild weather.
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20:07:11 <boily> IOCCC! → http://ioccc.org/years.html?a=123
20:07:29 * Bike glances meaningfully at topic
20:11:17 * boily glances at himself...
20:11:29 <boily> /clear! /clear! /abort! /time-travel!
20:32:38 <boily> meanwhile, my mind is completely twisted by misaka.
20:34:51 <boily> holy. horizontal. tiling.
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21:23:04 <shachaf> kmc: i like the haskell variation where main :: String and all the rts does is evaluate it and print it to stdout
21:23:36 <shachaf> i think that clarifies the "execution vs. evaluation" thing out of existence
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23:52:18 <lambdabot> int-e said 5h 36m 22s ago: Btw, re-reading GG is totally worth it. There are so many small details to rediscover, not to mention some significant plot developments that I have forgotten over the years.
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00:06:53 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> norway is warmer this time of the year. <-- incidentally i saw in the newspaper that the night before yesterday was the fourth hottest january night ever measured (by minimum temperature) in trondheim. (it was 5.1 celsius.)
00:08:21 <oerjan> @tell boily http://www.adressa.no/vaeret/article8897643.ece
00:09:52 <oerjan> shachaf: you californians are p. spoiled
00:10:10 <shachaf> wait am i a californian now
00:10:39 <oerjan> i'd hazard a guess israelis are p. spoiled about temperature too
00:11:31 <shachaf> look the point is, why are you even in trondheim when it's so inhuman there
00:11:35 <oerjan> and a proper finn would never call 5.1 celsius cold.
00:12:32 <shachaf> when i was last in helsinki it was ~30°C
00:13:02 <fizzie> Second half of December in Finland was the warmest ever in statistics starting from 1961.
00:13:31 <shachaf> what if you put some flour in your hair and moved to california
00:13:58 <shachaf> that's more sensible than calling people spoiled imo
00:14:03 <oerjan> the highest temperature ever measured in norway was 35.6°C
00:15:56 <fizzie> They did have -39.7 °C in December somewhere up north though.
00:17:01 <fizzie> Last year. It hasn't been December this year yet.
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00:19:16 <myname> depends on where you let start your year
00:19:35 <myname> i mean, if america starts a week on sunday, why not start a year in december?
00:22:05 <fizzie> In fact, whole 2013 was the sixth warmest in the 1847..2013 range. (Top 5 has 1938, 1989, 2011, 2000, 1934.)
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00:23:56 <kmc> in Europe in the Middle Ages, the year generally started on 25 March
00:23:59 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year#Historical_Christian_new_year_dates
00:24:31 <kmc> or sometimes on Easter, never mind that the date of easter moves back and forth
00:24:34 <kmc> 'same date could occur twice in a year; the two occurrences were distinguished as "before Easter" and "after Easter".'
00:24:35 <myname> also, there were a december this fiscal year
00:25:10 <kmc> January 1 is the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ
00:25:16 <kmc> religion is creepy
00:25:21 <shachaf> sunday is the sensible day to start the week
00:25:27 <shachaf> america starts it on monday
00:25:50 <myname> who starts on sunday, then?
00:25:58 <monotone> The American convention is Sunday.
00:26:05 <kmc> ISO starts it on Monday
00:26:12 <kmc> are you gonna argue with ISO
00:26:35 <shachaf> are you gonna argue with IMO
00:26:36 <monotone> Monday is the first day in most of continental Europe, as far as I'm aware.
00:26:41 <olsner> why argue with ISO when you can simply ignore them completely
00:27:17 <myname> america has been strong in ignoring standards for ages
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00:31:59 <fizzie> Week numbers: worst things. (Even agreeing on the start day doesn't guarantee those.)
00:32:57 <myname> at least there is no $[ in there
00:33:42 <fizzie> "World map showing first day of week used in different countries Saturday Sunday Monday Wednesday (questionable)
00:34:26 <kmc> wednesday is questionable
00:34:44 <myname> i mean, in german it's practically named "midweek"
00:34:53 <myname> how the hell can a week start at that
00:35:51 <fizzie> It's "midweek" in Finnish too.
00:36:29 <myname> where live these crazy people?
00:36:37 <kmc> odin's day
00:36:42 <olsner> swedish also has "wednesday" (but spelled onsdag)
00:37:54 <fizzie> Apparently it's just wrong. (The map had Hungary marked with Wednesday.)
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00:40:24 <fizzie> ISO week numbers have Monday as first day, and the week is associated with the year that contains the Thursday of that week, but: "In some countries, though, the numbering system is different from the ISO standard. At least six numberings are in use: --"
00:41:06 <kmc> great thing about standards
00:44:10 <fizzie> "In Scandinavian countries, Saturday is called lördag, "lørdag," or laurdag, the name being derived from the old word laugr/laug (hence Icelandic name Laugardagur), meaning bath, thus Lördag equates to bath-day. This is due to the Viking practice of bathing on Saturdays.[citation needed]"
00:44:33 <fizzie> That last bit was somehow amusing.
00:44:50 <fizzie> (It's "lauantai" in Finnish.)
00:45:12 <olsner> indeed I bathed today (earlier today when it was saturday)
00:45:24 <fizzie> Vikings are well-known for their bathing habits.
00:46:41 <fizzie> I did, too; we have a sauna reservation on Saturday, which I think is p. typical. (Though it's v. possible a private sauna would be even more typical; haven't seen statistics.)
00:48:23 <fizzie> Statistics Finland's page is not loading. :/
00:49:12 <shachaf> myname: wednesday as midweek only makes sense if the week starts on sunday
00:49:46 <fizzie> shachaf: It makes perfect sense when week starts on Monday, because Saturday and Sunday don't count.
00:50:47 <shachaf> have you considered that you don't count (properly)
00:51:03 <shachaf> also hebrew gives better evidence for it
00:51:14 <shachaf> in hebrew sunday is called firstday and monday is called secondday and so on
00:51:19 <myname> why? my week ends on friday :p
00:51:22 <fizzie> Bah, this page only has statistics for numbers of buildings.
00:51:29 <kmc> shachaf: sensible
00:52:00 <myname> shachaf: must drive programmers crazy
00:54:35 <fizzie> Apparently, in 2012, there are approximately 1555000 saunas "in flats", and 2579781 "household-dwelling units" in general. So (assuming the contribution of multiple-sauna dwellings as negligible) I guess it would logically follow that it's more common to have a sauna than not.
00:55:01 <shachaf> well, i mean, why would you not have a sauna
00:55:26 <olsner> I wonder if I could get a sauna put in my flat, or if it requires special infrastructure
00:55:27 <fizzie> Because of money, I guess.
00:55:43 <fizzie> I believe it requires rather similar infrastructure as a bathroom.
00:56:10 <shachaf> my grandmother has a sauna in her house in .il
00:56:46 <fizzie> (We don't have a sauna here, probably because it wasn't as common as it nowadays is to put private ones in, back in 1984 when this building was builded.)
00:58:07 <fizzie> Having one does take up some floor space. Though the ones they put in small apartments are really very tiny.
00:58:24 <fizzie> The sort of things that will be very crowded if you try to have more than two people in at the same time.
00:59:03 <shachaf> imo you gotta have your own lake, too
00:59:44 <fizzie> There are 187888 lakes (definition: >500 square metres) in Finland, so we'd have to kill a lot of people to achieve that.
00:59:44 <olsner> maybe you could use your bathtub as the lake and have a foldable sauna you can use to convert the rest of the bathroom into a sauna
01:00:24 <fizzie> I guess we could dig out more lakes, too.
01:00:35 <fizzie> The killing solution just sounded occurred to me first.
01:01:36 <shachaf> maybe you can consider a 1000 square metre lake to be two adjacent 500 square metre lakes
01:05:56 <fizzie> According to W|A, there's 34330 km^2 of lakes in Finland, so divided to 5.42 million people, that's about 6334 square metres.
01:06:11 <fizzie> Enough to give everyone up to 12 lakes.
01:06:36 <shachaf> i think everyone should get some shore as well
01:07:38 <fizzie> Oh no, the shoreline problem.
01:08:07 <shachaf> it is difficult to have a sauna by the lake when all you have is lake
01:08:57 <fizzie> I asked for "shoreline in Finland", but I think it's interpreting that as the coastline bordering the sea, or something. (On the other hand, I learned that 1250 km is "0.78 × distance the Proclaimers would walk, just to be the man that walks a thousand miles to fall down at your door".
01:09:08 <fizzie> (The distance being a thousand miles.)
01:09:42 <fizzie> (The comparisons of W|A are frequently very useful.)
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01:11:39 <fizzie> I think I'll make like a Proclaimer and walk (a shorter distance) to fall asleep now. (Nights.)
01:13:46 <shachaf> wait, i meant centikilomiles
01:25:38 <olsner> I wonder if I should eat (because it's dinner time) or sleep (because it's bedtime)
01:28:24 <elliott> I may ban everyone who tries to argue that the week starts on Sunday
01:28:51 <oerjan> itt elliott proves he's an antisemite
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03:11:42 <Sgeo> I didn't realize new BOFH stories are being produced
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03:38:31 <Bike> does anyone know about weird-ass linux boot errors
03:39:03 <Bike> this thing is telling me "Firmware Bug" and then.. i think it's crashing trying to look at an empty hard drive, which dumps me into ramfs, but it can't get a tty so i can't even tell it to die
03:40:12 <Bike> huh, some kernel bug. weird. i wonder why the recovery linux works then
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03:58:54 <Bike> what the hell is shutdown -k for, i love it
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06:32:21 <Jafet> Shutdown wasn't designed to be run setuid.
06:32:51 <Bike> hm, mine doesn't have that.
06:33:16 <Bike> actually i think this ubuntu one is a totally different implementation from the arch one, how odd
06:34:06 <Bike> which i guess has to do with ubuntu doing some total other thiing with initd, well, whatever
07:02:58 <zzo38> I have more idea of some kind of computer game based on something I have dreamt of. Do you have any such things?
07:04:58 <Bike> i thought of basing a game on dreams once.
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07:05:31 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
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07:06:13 <Bike> a game with a framing story of invading dreams somehow (Paprika ish, probably) used to exhibit real people's dreams in FPS form.
07:09:28 <zzo38> Ah, OK. My ideas isn't like that; it is simply using things I have dreamt as ideas.
07:09:54 <Bike> right. but it seemed related.
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07:30:01 <zzo38> Can you perhaps give an example of how you would do that?
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07:31:14 <Bike> i had a friend with a dream where she was picked up by robots and told to run obstacle courses, so that they could study humn behavior; bam, tutorial level
07:31:50 <quintopia> sounds a lot like psychonauts to me
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07:59:56 <zzo38> I can tell you what one of my ideas is, though. You can gain (and change) your affiliation with various organizations during the game, such as the evil "The Core", or one of the three factions that secretly work for them; or the four small intelligent insects (two red and two blue) who are against them, and can eat the inside of your body and brain a little bit. Eventually they can grow much larger (almost as big as people) and wings to fly; ...
08:00:54 <zzo38> ... if big then it is a great help to you to stop "The Core", too. Or, you can play as the insectoid character, which is like another game, even though it is the same game. And then there can be even more confusing circumstances involved in the situations!!!!
08:01:48 <Bike> the game of confusing circumstances involved in situations
08:03:12 <quintopia> zzo38: i think i might like this game!
08:03:30 <coppro> Jafet: that's an important note
08:04:01 <coppro> translation "shutdown is not necessarily a secure piece of software. If you setuid it, attackers may do other things"
08:06:39 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, maybe, but I don't actually have much more idea than just what I wrote now.
08:08:41 <zzo38> Well, there is one more thing. I also dreamt that such evil organizations was in the same building as a clothing store (maybe as a kind of front), and for some reason there was the situation where for "cosmic balance" or something like that, we had to accelerate the rack hanging shirts while riding it, once we reach the middle we must turn it around immediately and decelerate all the way to the other side until it stops.
08:08:51 <zzo38> However, it wouldn't stop...
08:09:44 <zzo38> So such a thing could be worked into a game too, but it can also be made not to.
08:09:51 <zzo38> Maybe it doesn't help.
08:10:58 <zzo38> I know it isn't sensible.
08:13:02 <zzo38> The other ideas above seems more likely to work, though. But still I don't have much more idea to actually program in such things.
08:14:02 <zzo38> Yes, I might be able to do so in future
08:14:19 <zzo38> Do *you* have any better ideas?
08:15:04 <quintopia> i am sometimes working on a puzzle game
08:15:20 <zzo38> What kind of puzzle game?
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08:17:06 <quintopia> it's about santa's elves going on strike. so santa gets conned into replacing them with robots that run on rails. and the player is stuck with the task of designing the rails and switches so that the toys get put together correctly.
08:18:38 <quintopia> so it would be a manufactoria sort of game, but less turing-complete (no queue)
08:24:49 <zzo38> If I ever do make a game based on what I wrote about what I dreamt (the first one, not the second unsensible one), then I can show you. But, I might not. Nevertheless, there are several other idea possibility.
08:25:21 <quintopia> how much time a day do you usually spend building software
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08:42:56 <zzo38> Can Zerocoin keys be transmitted using separate channels?
08:57:37 <quintopia> but there's not really a need for it
08:58:15 <quintopia> instead, just reclaim your zerocoin as btc, and immediately give it to whomever in the usual way
08:58:34 <quintopia> anonymity is maintained as long as you do the claiming with a new address
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09:06:50 <zzo38> But would it simplify something in any way if in a way that would still work OK?
09:08:25 <zzo38> You would still need time to verify the transaction, for sure, though.
09:13:46 <zzo38> I'm not sure what ways there are to do what things, since it seem to me a good idea would be to design the system to allow transmissions on separate channels
09:34:18 <quintopia> just hand out the private key of the zerocoin transaction you made
09:59:55 <zzo38> I am just wondering how much privacy issues there are from such thing; maybe it depends on who uses it?
10:01:10 <zzo38> Do you know about CipherSaber?
10:01:18 <quintopia> well, the point of zerocoin is to remain anonymous, and if you transfer zerocin via a side channel, you are deanonymizing yourself to the person you give it to
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10:02:16 <zzo38> CipherSaber is a variant of ARCFOUR with a ten-byte initialization vector and the key setup repeated a secret number of times too (this secret number would be part of the key).
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10:05:22 <quintopia> it appears to be a specific RC4 implementation. no biggie.
10:07:05 <zzo38> I have used RC4 as nothing more than a random number generator, and this seems to work; it also isn't too difficult to implement in a 6502, although it uses up a large amount of the RAM in systems such as NES/Famicom.
10:08:32 <zzo38> I want to implement a good quality random number generator for the RANDOM instruction of the Z-machine, but I don't have 256 bytes of RAM remaining which can be used for this purpose; almost all of the RAM is already used (and that includes the 64K RAM in the cartridge, too!)
10:08:36 <quintopia> doesn't seem like famicom would have much need for encryption
10:09:25 <zzo38> Yes, it is true, but I just wanted to implement a good quality random number generator; cryptographic quality is not necessary but it does have to be *good* quality.
10:10:27 <quintopia> so have you considered and rejected LCGs?
10:10:35 <quintopia> they certainly use very little memory
10:11:43 <zzo38> Are they good enough?
10:12:29 <zzo38> I don't expect it to be good enough.
10:12:40 <quintopia> i don't know what good enough means to you
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10:13:08 <quintopia> LFSRs can be computed in the same amount of memory but take longer to compute, but have better randomness properties
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10:13:54 <zzo38> Random numbers shouldn't need to be generated too often.
10:15:48 <zzo38> Probably in any Z-machine games it won't be generated a lot of random numbers each turn, but it need to be at least reasonably fast, but not a lot like other things are.
10:16:47 <zzo38> Note that the time could also be used as an input to the random number generator; the results don't have to be predictable.
10:16:48 <quintopia> then i think LFSR will be good enough.
10:20:17 <zzo38> It could be combined with a time counter increasing every frame, and then it need to know how many bits of output are needed and then if the number is too high after masking out the unneeded bits, try again.
10:22:21 <quintopia> using XOR to combine with time i assume?
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10:24:16 <Jafet> Z machine on a famicom?
10:24:18 <zzo38> Note that there is actually a LFSR in the 2A03 (the CPU for the Famicom), however the program cannot read it unless pin 30 is high, in which case the I/O ports stop working, and anyways pin 30 is internally hardwired to ground and cannot be changed. It *is* output to the cartridge, but no cartridge does anything with it except to output it to the audio.
10:25:01 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes, I made up much of it already, but not division and random numbers. http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Famicom_Z-machine You can read the coding so far
10:26:09 <Jafet> You can use a multiply-with-carry generator, I don't know if it will fit in 256 bytes (of code?)
10:26:28 <zzo38> Jafet: The code can be put in ROM; it doesn't need to fit in RAM.
10:26:53 <zzo38> I can implement it in software, though. I didn't intend to use XOR, but rather subtraction, to do the combine, however; and the number need to be 15-bits but a 16-bits LFSR could be used.
10:26:54 <Jafet> Though the small word size of the 6502 may be a problem.
10:27:12 <zzo38> That would slow it down a bit, yes.
10:28:11 <zzo38> Maybe the multiplication would be better using the Russian algorithm; would this be better or not, than what I have?
10:28:30 <zzo38> (I mean for the MUL instruction, not for random number generators)
10:28:39 <zzo38> And yet I would still require division/modulo
10:31:31 <zzo38> As well as an efficient way to lookup in the vocabulary (which could be preprocessed using a separate program if it would help; there is probably enough ROM space for such a thing)
10:35:24 <zzo38> Also please notify me if you found anything wrong with the program so far
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10:50:00 <zzo38> I noticed a C code for LFSR in Wikipedia. However, in a GNU C program, you might use __builtin_parity, would that work better? (Or you can use __builtin_parityll if you need more bits)
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11:12:53 <Jafet> The 6502 does not have a division instruction?
11:14:00 <Jafet> Oh, it's *that* old.
11:17:33 <fizzie> SPARC doesn't have a division instruction either.
11:18:02 <fizzie> (And it's a not-that-old "real" processor.)
11:18:20 <fizzie> I guess it might have a floating-point division, though.
11:19:21 <fizzie> (Or, to be more exact, a SPARC might commonly come with a FPU that does division.)
11:23:16 <zzo38> Yes, 6502 has no multiplication or division instruction.
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11:23:47 <zzo38> (Although the MMC5 cartridge does include a hardware register for multiplication.)
11:27:16 <ion> http://img.pr0gramm.com/2012/07/tfcu4.png
11:27:52 <fizzie> The ARM in the Nintendo DS has a hardware integer multiplication (and multiply-accumulate) instruction, but no division; however, the DS adds a separate memory-mapped (64- and 32-bit) integer division and square-root device.
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11:31:08 <zzo38> Yes, that is true even as early as ARMv2, I think; it has multiplication but not division instruction.
11:31:26 <myname> ion: wondering what linux looks like at this
11:33:29 <fizzie> myname: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518UgTYS4UL._SY300_.jpg perhaps?
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12:21:11 <zzo38> There is article in Esolang wiki relating to some Japanese book. However, it mentions "Starry" and "Bolic", which are red links.
12:21:43 <b_jonas> multiplication? the 6502 doesn't even have proper shift instructions.
12:22:27 <zzo38> b_jonas: The 6502 can shift one at a time, although there isn't any arithmetic right shift.
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12:25:19 <zzo38> You can fake it, though, for example CMP #$80 ROR A (I think)
12:25:42 <fizzie> Multiplication is quite a lot to ask. Z80 doesn't have it either.
12:25:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: something like that, yes
12:26:20 <b_jonas> mind you, even 386 didn't have a fast multiplication
12:26:31 <b_jonas> it did have a multiplication instruction but it took ages
12:27:00 <b_jonas> it was only later, near the pentiums, when they added a multiplication circuit so we can now perform multiplication fast
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12:45:50 <zzo38> Also looking at that Japanese stuff, it reveals another esolang, called "Smile", which also isn't in the wiki. https://github.com/yhara/smile The implementation appears to be incomplete.
12:47:58 <fizzie> Shouldn't a "semicolon" just be a single dot, anyway?
12:49:11 <fizzie> (The Finnish name translates literally to "half-dot", incidentally, which is equally illogical.)
12:52:23 <zzo38> I would think "semicolon" and "half-dot" names are due to their function rather than writing.
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12:57:21 <zzo38> This Japanese stuff, in addition to Bolic, Starry, and Smile, also mentions HSQ9+ which is HQ9+ with the "S" command to display the steam locomotive (like the "sl" command in some UNIX systems), and Uncontrollable, a brainfuck equivalent using words that mean control structures in Ruby and other programming languages.
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12:58:50 <myname> i wonder if we will have ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ0123456789+~ eventually
12:59:27 <Slereah_> 8 will print "88 bottles of beers"
12:59:52 <myname> of course not, 8 is clearly conways game of life
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13:13:08 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/perl/hq9+.pl - good old usenet signature
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13:43:29 <FireFly> zzo38: I wonder if there are any other published books about esolangs?
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13:59:19 <zzo38> FireFly: I don't know, but I have read a magazine article once about it (I forget which).
14:04:34 <oerjan> <zzo38> There is article in Esolang wiki relating to some Japanese book. However, it mentions "Starry" and "Bolic", which are red links. <-- yeah we are clearly missing some japanese stuff. the only reason we have KEMURI is that i used google translate on wikipedia's japanese esolang page once.
14:11:27 <fizzie> Brainfuck has probably been mentioned in MEDIA many times.
14:11:52 <fizzie> I vaguely recall some kind of a mention in some Finnish computer magazine.
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14:21:00 <nooodl> ah, there's a ruby implementation on yhara's book's site
14:23:26 <zzo38> Some Japanese stuff I have added myself too though
14:23:46 <Taneb> I am once more not in Hexham
14:24:24 <zzo38> (But I didn't use Google translation; I can read a little bit Japanese, and some may have partial English documentation, and can see the C or Ruby implementations)
14:35:13 <fizzie> Taneb: I guess you still carry an intangible bit of Hexham with you, in your heart?
14:35:55 <Taneb> Also I stole the abbey
14:36:18 <olsner> you can take the Taneb out of Hexham but you can't take the Hexham out of Taneb
14:36:38 <Taneb> I'm starting a collection of old churches
14:37:10 <Taneb> The oldest church I've been in would either be Hexham Abbey, York Minster, or the Colosseum
14:47:10 <fizzie> Panteon, that's the one with the hole in the dome?
14:48:50 <Taneb> Hexham Abbey is the only one that started out Christian and stayed Christian
14:49:28 <fizzie> What's the York one started as?
14:49:46 <Taneb> And it had a bit when it was Norse
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15:17:59 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Starry there
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15:34:49 <ion> http://lyrics.in.th/17527 http://youtu.be/ArvmQBEkzWw
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16:46:03 <quintopia> why does endoh3's hint make such a big deal about "what is 89/84?????" it being a number that's being multiplied by and it being a program to output sounds based on note names, it's obviously a "good enough" approximation of the 12th root of 2.
16:49:09 <fizzie> I don't really see a "big deal" about it.
16:49:41 <fizzie> I mean, there's a single bullet point about it.
16:50:01 <fizzie> (With a single question mark.)
16:50:26 <FreeFull> scale=10; (89/84)^12=2.0013758126
16:50:58 <fizzie> The hint file mentions a thing that's useful for finding rational approximations, too.
16:51:00 <quintopia> hmm i thought i'd seen it in there twice, but it turns out i had seen it in the spoiler (because i still haven't unrot13'd it) and considered that the second time
16:51:03 <FreeFull> scale=10; ((89/84)^12 - 2)/2 * 100
16:51:40 <fizzie> It's kind of spoiled in the spoiler, but that's presumably why it's called a spoiler.
16:52:06 <quintopia> rot13 isn't good for hiding numerical spoilers
16:52:12 <fizzie> Also the cbj(2, 1.0 / 12.0) part isn't terribly well-protec... right, that.
16:53:08 <FreeFull> Actually, it's off by less than that
16:53:23 <quintopia> fizzie: i still don't know what a stern-brocot tree is. should i look it up
16:53:42 <FreeFull> That's a very good approximation of 2^(1/12)
16:53:47 <fizzie> quintopia: Spoiler: it's something that can be useful for locating approximations.
16:54:33 <quintopia> fizzie: i figured as much. but is it interesting enough to spend minutes on? could i use it to prove that phi is the most irrational number?
16:54:41 <FreeFull> What are we talking about anyway?
16:54:42 <fizzie> It's also a binary tree that has every (positive) rational number in it, which is maybe funky?
16:54:52 <FreeFull> quintopia: What does most irrational mean?
16:56:27 <quintopia> FreeFull: something like "for any large enough given length denominator, the best approximation of phi with denominators of that length will be worse than the best approximations of any other irrational number"
16:57:09 <FreeFull> quintopia: That sounds like a very difficult and significant thing to prove
16:57:27 <quintopia> FreeFull: i certainly haven't learned how yet
16:57:30 <FreeFull> Let's think of some irrational numbers
16:58:17 <FreeFull> Hmm, I wonder if the non-zero fixed points of tan are irrational
16:58:45 <quintopia> FreeFull: also, the entire sequence of golden sections and silver sections
16:59:08 <FreeFull> Most multiples of irrational numbers are irrational
16:59:46 <FreeFull> I know, just enumerating more irrationals
17:01:01 <fizzie> All transcendental numbers are irrational, I believe.
17:01:13 <int-e> Rational approximations are intimately related to continued fractions, and 1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+ ... ))) = phi has a tail of 1s which is about the worst that can happen. (Cutting the continued fraction off just before a large number typically results in good approximations.)
17:01:34 <FreeFull> It's even harder to prove something is transcendental though
17:02:13 <FreeFull> int-e: You can convert many continued fractions into recursive relations and solve them
17:02:30 <FreeFull> So there, you'd get 1/(1+phi) = phi
17:02:53 <int-e> FreeFull: Yes. But that's besides the point, since phi itself is not rational.
17:02:53 <fizzie> Given #esoteric, I guess it's mandatory to also mention Chaitin's constant.
17:03:37 <FreeFull> fizzie: We can't even give an approximation for that
17:03:40 <int-e> if you truncate the continued fraction you get rational approximations of phi: 0/1, 1/1, 1/2, 2/3, 3/5, 5/8, 8/13, 13/21, etc.
17:04:16 <fizzie> FreeFull: You can always give an approximation, it just might not be any good.
17:04:51 <quintopia> FreeFull: the solution to your recurrence relation (as a sequence) is F_{n+1}/F_n
17:05:00 <FreeFull> fizzie: We can't even tell how good an approximation is though
17:05:33 <fizzie> FreeFull: Well, 1/2 is not more than 1/2 away.
17:06:10 <int-e> FreeFull: But 1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+ ... ))) is almost the same. 1/1, 2/1, 3/2, 5/3, 8/5, 13/8 etc.
17:06:25 <quintopia> let's list definable numbers with nonfinite descriptions
17:06:30 <ion> 13/8 is a nice time signature.
17:07:12 <quintopia> ion: i know a rock song in 13/8, that wasn't broken in the way that led zeppelin's drummer broke nice time signatures
17:07:12 <FreeFull> 1/(1+phi) = phi 1 = (1+phi)phi 1 = phi + phi^2 phi^2 + phi + 1 = 0 (phi + 1/2)^2 - 1/4 + 1 = 0 (phi + 1/2)^2 = -3/4 phi + 1/2 = sqrt(-3/4) I did something wrong
17:07:23 <FreeFull> phi + 1/2 doesn't have a complex part ):
17:07:42 <nooodl> 1 = phi + phi^2 phi^2 + phi + 1 = 0
17:08:00 <FreeFull> Yeah, that solves the minus problem
17:08:46 <FreeFull> phi^2 + phi - 1 = 0 (phi + 1/2)^2 - 1/4 - 1 = 0 phi + 1/2 = sqrt(5)/2 phi = (sqrt(5) + 1)/2
17:08:56 <int-e> pi = 3 + 1/(7+1/(15+(1/(1+1/(292+...)))) gives the great approximation 355/113 of pi. (Off by about 1/3748629)
17:09:06 <FreeFull> I was worried I might get 1/phi instead by accident
17:09:07 <quintopia> fizzie: do you know any definable numbers with (only) infinite descriptions?
17:09:15 <int-e> where 355/113 = 3+1/(7+1/(15+1/1))
17:09:43 <quintopia> int-e: didn't the ancient chinese know that approximation?
17:12:50 <int-e> I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
17:16:02 <FreeFull> The easiest way to approximate pi is to draw a circle and measure it
17:17:23 <quintopia> i assume the other silver sections are the ones with continued fractions [2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,...] and [3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,...] etc.
17:18:13 -!- Chillectual has changed nick to LinearInterpol.
17:18:40 <FreeFull> I did the square root without putting in ±
17:19:36 <int-e> quintopia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsu_Chung-Chih
17:19:56 <int-e> "He obtained the result by approximating a circle with a 12,288 (= 2^12 × 3) sided polygon"
17:20:00 <quintopia> FreeFull: making a circle and measuring it seems a lot more difficult than writing a program that generates a sequence that converges to pi, and kill the program when it gets close enough
17:30:29 <FreeFull> quintopia: Try doing that when you find yourself stuck 3000 years in the past
17:30:33 <quintopia> does unicode contain rod numerals?
17:32:01 <quintopia> FreeFull: you said easiest. you didn't say easiest on pen and paper. nonetheless, i could do so, and it would still probably get good approximations faster than making and measuring a circle
17:33:01 <FreeFull> quintopia: I never mentioned pen and paper
17:33:27 <kmc> good morning
17:33:31 <quintopia> ...i'm pretty sure i just said you didn't say that :P
17:33:32 <kmc> fungot: good morning
17:33:32 <fungot> kmc: hmm... my fnord bad enough already. :) at least fnord.)
17:33:52 <quintopia> but you can do as well with brush and paper, or counting rods, as with pen and paper
17:33:53 <kmc> fungot: a bad fnord?!??
17:33:54 <fungot> kmc: every time you accidentally put it only. we do have a wristwatch which runs scheme, now that we have a good point :)
17:33:55 <FreeFull> If you know the mathematics to calculate pi that easily..
17:34:12 <kmc> fungot: does your wristwatch support time travel via continuations?
17:34:13 <fungot> kmc: and it is maybe not so much big iron as lots of little pieces of information...
17:34:29 <FreeFull> quintopia: I was thinking chalk and long rope
17:35:13 <quintopia> FreeFull: keep the rope. i'll do the calculation by hand with the chalk :D
18:05:00 <mroman> `unicode arabic digit nine
18:06:06 <mroman> `unicode arabic-indic digit nine
18:06:27 <HackEgo> [U+09ED BENGALI DIGIT SEVEN] [U+0669 ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT NINE]
18:20:17 <fizzie> The other is clearly larger, at least in my rendering here.
18:24:32 <myname> but if it is written down...
18:24:52 <FreeFull> The other one is somewhat larger for me
18:28:30 <mroman> The left one is a litle bit more fat than the right one
18:30:22 <ion> They look like they come from different fonts here.
18:35:27 <ais523> Konvoersation'se capabilit or weird y ypos: apparently if it's laggin enough legters can atpear out p order
18:36:43 <ais523> (left over from te previoush line: "of")
18:39:57 <ais523> let ine type somemhing really fast aid just prens return as see what ndappens
18:40:24 <ais523> (the tin" at th" e start osthat line f appear to ave behn from anoeher chanelt)
18:40:51 <ais523> what ort of UIscan end up reading ke s out of oyder?
18:40:55 <kmc> seems like a p. serious bug
18:41:19 <ais523> sometiys it takesmelike 20 s onds befoece the lettrrs appear
18:41:37 <ais523> even thoughemost of th others have already eeen sentb
18:42:22 <ais523> ths newline fe om the endro the prev us messagio sent a meesage for ms in anotherechannel
18:43:22 <ais523> itsorse becauw I can't setype becau my hand ses damaged
18:43:31 <ais523> ind I can'a sensibltfix the ry sulting tyes
18:45:50 <FreeFull> ais523: Maybe you should use a different client
18:46:24 <quintopia> that is very very difficult to read
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18:59:10 <fizzie> That is like an automatic modern poetry mode.
19:01:55 <FreeFull> I thought megahal was the height of that
19:02:15 * ais523 experiments with writing their comments in a text editor, then copy-pasting
19:02:29 <ais523> huh, that seems to work quite well
19:03:40 <FreeFull> ais523: I still think you should switch clients
19:04:03 <ais523> II'm not nomally in archannel wi h 1000+ utrs
19:05:05 <int-e> ... "Oh well, if you prefer, I can recognize handwriting," said the imp proudly. "I'm quite advanced." Vimes pulled out his notebook and held it up. "Like this?" he said. The imp squinted for a moment. "Yep," it said. "That's handwriting, sure enough. Curly bits, spiky bits, all joined together. Yep. Handwriting. I'd recognize it anywhere." "Aren't you supposed to tell me what it say?" The demon looked wary. "Says?" it...
19:05:11 <int-e> ...said. "It's supposed to make noises?"
19:08:54 <int-e> ais523: It must be one of those super-efficient multithreaded applications.
19:12:13 <int-e> Hey it might even be a security feature. After all, you're not supposed to trust user input. So you better process each character in its own sandbox!
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19:43:28 <FreeFull> "static int running = 1;" real useful code
19:43:49 <FreeFull> Well, it does actually set running to 0 on interrupt
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19:51:24 <kmc> the other day I learned about sigatomic_t
19:51:33 <kmc> which is what you're supposed to use for such variables, when they would be updated from a signal handler
19:51:48 <kmc> how many integer types does standard C+POSIX have? "a lot"
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19:53:38 <ais523> kmc: 10, all the others are aliases for one of those 10
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19:54:01 <kmc> I meant including aliases, since what the aliases resolve to is platform-dependent
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19:56:55 <fizzie> ais523: Why would all the other types need to be aliases of standard integer types?
19:57:19 <ais523> fizzie: I think they are by definition, not sure though
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19:57:36 <fizzie> C allows for an unlimited amount of extended signed integer types, and I don't think most named integer types are restricted to be one of the standard ones.
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19:59:03 <fizzie> All the <stdint.h> types are at least only required to denote "a -- integer type" with no further qualifications.
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20:01:28 <fizzie> (In any case, "a lot" sounds like a proper answer for the original including-aliases question, since how many distinct underlying types there are is obviously implementation-defined.)
20:01:44 <fizzie> Random fact: POSIX makes time_t an integer type.
20:02:03 <fizzie> (C11 allows any real type, and C99 allows any arithmetic type, including complex types.)
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20:55:09 <int-e> Awww. I didn't get a botnet for christmas.
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21:19:15 <Bike> i made an arch image with unetbootin, put it on a stick, booted from. get dmesg whining about not being able to deal with the stick, and i get dumped to a shell excet oh wait no job control and no tty so i have to hard boot, fuuuuuck computers
21:19:26 <fizzie> How would you package up a botnet under a christmas tree, anyway?
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21:32:30 <monotone> fizzie: you get the C&C server name and credentials on a card, I suppose
21:35:00 <kmc> complex time_t
21:35:33 <kmc> time is a float; lunchtime doubly so
21:36:52 <fizzie> Fancy justification for a complex time_t: it discourages people from assuming unportable things about the ordering of the values; something they might do if it was a real type.
21:37:37 <kmc> is it a type error to use ordering operators on complex types?
21:38:07 <fizzie> It is a constraint violation, yes.
21:38:33 <fizzie> "One of the following shall hold: - both operands have real type; or - both operands are pointers to qualified or unqualified versions of compatible object types."
21:38:48 <Bike> i hear having multiple time(like) dimensions makes physics boring, unless you have one spacelike and three timelike in which case it's just like this
21:49:20 <Vorpal> Bike, huh, I have installed arch from an usb stick before I *think*. Yeah pretty sure.
21:49:38 <Vorpal> Don't remember if I used unetbootin though, was ages ago
21:50:11 <kmc> I think most distros these days provide an image you can dd onto your USB stick
21:50:19 <kmc> some of them even manage for it to be the same file as the .iso, through hax
21:50:53 <Bike> yeah, that's what i did.
21:51:14 <Bike> that should mean i don't hve to care about partition tables or anything, shouldn't it?
21:51:32 <kmc> just make sure you dd it to /dev/sdb not /dev/sdb1 if that's what the instructions sya
21:52:25 <Bike> yeah, the instructions say that specifically. but then parted tells me the partition table is fucked up so i thought that might be related.
21:53:13 <kmc> maybe it doesn't need to have a partition table
21:57:06 <Bike> probably not, since i get usb errors either way
21:57:57 <Bike> i thought maybe i connected the internal cables wrong but i can read from the usb stick (with a filesystem, not after dd) from an old hard disk plugged in the same puter
21:59:03 <kmc> +5, use of the word "puter"
21:59:24 <Bike> that's what it's doing. it's puting
21:59:42 <kmc> NIKON: What, your mom buy you a 'puter for Christmas?
22:00:15 -!- LinearInterpol has changed nick to ZeroCool.
22:00:21 <ZeroCool> baahahaha, this name is taken.
22:00:41 -!- ZeroCool has changed nick to LinearInterpol.
22:01:58 <Bike> https://twitter.com/mnxmnkmnd/status/419951311396667392/photo/1/large i can't even tell what's doing an error -32, it isn't libusb
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22:51:32 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in cfrac (2**(1/12))
22:51:33 <lambdabot> [1,16,1,4,2,7,1,1,2,2,7,4,1,2,1,59,1,3,2,1,17,1,13,1,1,1,2,1,1,4,2,6,2,81,17...
22:54:18 <oerjan> @tell quintopia 89/84 is not just a good enough approximation of 2**(1/12), but a continued fraction cutoff.
22:54:40 <oerjan> > 1+1/(16+1/(1+1/(4+1/2)))
22:54:47 <ais523> OK, so restarting my client fixed it
22:54:48 <oerjan> > 1+1/(16+1/(1+1/(4+1/2)))::Rational
22:55:43 <fizzie> oerjan: The hint file explicitly mentions that "I found this approximation by using Stern-Brocot tree", for the record.
22:55:57 <oerjan> fizzie: that would do it.
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23:03:34 <lambdabot> [0.0,1.0,0.5403023058681398,0.8575532158463934,0.6542897904977791,0.79348035...
23:03:50 <FreeFull> I wonder how well it approximates
23:05:55 <nooodl> 0.739085133215160641655312087673873404013
23:06:29 <FreeFull> nooodl: I mean, in the continued fraction kind of way
23:06:35 <FreeFull> I don't even know what the continued fraction for it would be
23:08:22 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in cfrac 0.739085133215160641655312087673873404013
23:08:23 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,1,4,1,40,1,9,4,2,1,15,2,12,1,10,1,2,13,1,2,1,4,6,1,2,1,20,3,1,1,2,1,2...
23:09:27 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in cfrac (0.739085133215160641655312087673873404013 :: CReal)
23:09:30 <FreeFull> I'm not sure what kind of pattern that is
23:09:34 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in cfrac (0.739085133215160641655312087673873404013 :: CReal)
23:09:40 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in cfrac (0.739085133215160641655312087673873404013 :: Float)
23:09:41 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,1,4,1,40,1,8,5,2,3,19,2,10,1,1,3,3,4,1,1,21,1,6,2,2,1,5,32,4,15,2,3,1...
23:10:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: quite likely there is no pattern.
23:10:37 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in cfrac (exp 1)
23:10:38 <lambdabot> [2,1,2,1,1,4,1,1,6,1,1,8,1,1,10,1,1,12,1,1,11,3,2,1,3,1,73,6,1,1,1,1,1,2,31,...
23:10:53 <FreeFull> I mean, the fixed point of cos one
23:11:51 <FreeFull> That looks like a pattern until the 11,3,2 part
23:12:22 <oerjan> yes. that's because of floating point error, e actually has a regular pattern.
23:12:27 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in cfrac (exp 2)
23:12:28 <lambdabot> [7,2,1,1,3,18,5,1,1,6,30,8,1,1,12,1,1,24,1,1,1,19,92,3,3,1,1,1,1,1,5,4,3,1,1...
23:12:59 <FreeFull> The 1,1 is an occuring pattern though
23:13:14 <oerjan> yes, it does look like there's something 1,1,3*2^n going on
23:13:51 <Taneb> Then it goes 1 1 1 19
23:13:59 <oerjan> but with strangely random intermediate steps.
23:14:22 <oerjan> i think the 19 is probably after floating point errors start to hurt
23:14:41 <FreeFull> Wolfram alpha gives an accurate continued fraction for the cos fixed point
23:15:00 <FreeFull> I'm not sure what the pattern is though
23:15:00 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in take 50 $ cfrac (exp 2 :: CReal)
23:15:11 <oerjan> > let cfrac x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cfrac (1/(x - fromIntegral f)) where f = floor x in take 30 $ cfrac (exp 2 :: CReal)
23:15:13 <lambdabot> [7,2,1,1,3,18,5,1,1,6,30,8,1,1,9,42,11,1,1,12,54,14,1,1,15,66,17,1,1,18]
23:15:25 <FreeFull> You get mostly small numbers with large numbers interspersed
23:15:41 <oerjan> it seems the 12 was a fluke
23:16:18 <oerjan> ok that's more regular than it looked at first
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23:17:13 <FreeFull> And you see patterns with multiples of 3
23:17:16 <oerjan> although the intermediate numbers still look a little random
23:18:04 <oerjan> no wait 18,30,42 increase by 12 each step
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23:18:31 <Taneb> 5,6,8,9,12,14,15,18
23:18:31 <FreeFull> 7,2, then 1,1,3n,6+12n,2+3n repeating
23:18:31 <oerjan> and 5,8,11 by 3. so it's entirely regular.
23:21:04 <FreeFull> > let esquared = 7:2:concatMap (\n -> [1,1,3*n,6+12*n,2+3*n])[1..] in esquared
23:21:05 <lambdabot> [7,2,1,1,3,18,5,1,1,6,30,8,1,1,9,42,11,1,1,12,54,14,1,1,15,66,17,1,1,18,78,2...
23:22:08 <oerjan> > foldr (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50]
23:22:10 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable t0)
23:22:10 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M187550738534485867012888.show_M1875507385344858670...
23:22:10 <lambdabot> The type variable `t0' is ambiguous
23:22:10 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
23:22:10 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
23:22:17 <Bike> wooooooooooooo
23:22:21 <oerjan> > foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50]
23:23:42 <oerjan> if this kind of step linear sequence is related to e in general, then so should this number.
23:24:52 <oerjan> > foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..100]
23:26:12 <oerjan> inverse symbolic calculator says it might be BesI(0,2)/BesI(1,2)
23:26:29 <oerjan> something bessier i suspect
23:26:47 <oerjan> it seems to use maple functions
23:26:47 <Taneb> If it wasn't raining I'd go for a wander
23:30:49 <oerjan> oh it's bessel. wikipedia mentions it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continued_fraction#Regular_patterns_in_continued_fractions
23:30:52 <Taneb> Oh wow, it's really tipping it down
23:31:51 <FreeFull> Is it true that cos(pi/5) = phi/2?
23:32:11 <oerjan> FreeFull: hm something like that, yes.
23:32:49 <oerjan> i recall that the golden section is involved in constructing regular pentagons.
23:33:05 <quintopia> hi oerjan i'm still here in channel. hi lambdabot.
23:33:28 <oerjan> quintopia: oh right you were complaining. i also said i might not remember it.
23:34:23 <FreeFull> Is freenode still being ddosed?
23:35:50 <oerjan> FreeFull: in fact i recall there's a very nice visual proof that the golden ratio is irrational based on inscribing pentagons in each other. even simpler than for sqrt(2).
23:36:11 <oerjan> or possibly five-pointed stars.
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00:04:20 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: lexical error at character '\2541'
00:04:36 <oerjan> lambdabot: you disappoint me.
00:05:57 <olsner> `run python -c 'print int("৭٩")'
00:06:00 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: '\xe0\xa7\xad\xd9\xa9'
00:06:28 <olsner> `run python -c 'print int("৭٩".decode("utf-8"))'
00:07:22 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print ৭٩'
00:07:23 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ print ৭٩ \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
00:07:54 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
00:09:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, happy getting older day
00:09:56 <Taneb> Which getting older day is it?
00:10:25 <Taneb> I did not get you anything, I'm sorry
00:11:25 <Taneb> I am afraid I have engineered events such that I am always approximately 64 days older than you
00:12:18 <Taneb> It is a dastardly scheme tracing back to approximately 19 years ago
00:12:25 <Phantom_Hoover> wait if i kill you you technically stop getting older don't you
00:12:40 <Taneb> But do you really think you can kill me?
00:12:48 <Taneb> I can turn into an elf!
00:13:23 <Phantom_Hoover> the only way you could make it easier still for me to kill you is if you also turned into a swede
00:13:41 <Taneb> Have you ever successfully killed an elf, though?
00:13:59 <Taneb> And I'm not talking about one of those pixies you get down the bottom of your garden, either.
00:14:37 <olsner> Taneb: but swedes are not elves, and as a swede it would be trivial to kill you
00:14:52 <Taneb> olsner, I'm also an Australian
00:15:01 <Taneb> Can a Swede kill an Australian!?
00:15:18 <olsner> Taneb: australia = austria = switzerland = sweden
00:17:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, on the bright side, you're older than elliott
00:18:40 <fungot> Taneb: and write as fnord as i'd like. but quality for sure. :) i just remembered
00:18:46 <olsner> we've been here quite some time though, I guess elliott might now be older than he used to be
00:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> by extension nooodl probably was/isn't either? i forget though
00:19:01 <olsner> fungot: are you older?
00:19:01 <fungot> olsner: but there is naturally limit soon ( although not strictly conformant) c. this is only valid in one store, which is a problem
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00:28:03 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, seriously, though, happy birthday
00:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> it's my first day back at uni HOW CAN THIS DAY BE HAPPY
00:29:09 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you can run around the streets of Coventry screaming to the heavens about the oncoming angels
00:29:38 <Taneb> Do you by any chance know anyone by the name of Mr Green?
00:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> i went there last term for a social, we got lost and some youths on skateboards started circling in for the kill
00:30:33 <Taneb> On Freshers' something similar happened to me, except they were jugglers
00:30:59 <oerjan> it's when they're mimes you need to really be afraid.
00:31:00 <Taneb> Jugglers can be terrifying
00:31:56 <Bike> is there a generic god help me i'm doomed linux help channel or something
00:32:10 <Taneb> #esoteric, probably
00:32:41 <fizzie> 1241 users, I'm sure you'll get very personal attention.
00:33:09 <fizzie> "The purpose of ##Linux is to provide a fun and friendly medium for new and hardcore Linux users alike seeking help, advice and constructive discussion on Linux-related topics. The channel is for ALL levels of user experience, including none."
00:33:26 <fizzie> (Do you self-identify as a "hardcore Linux user"?)
00:33:47 <Bike> it's really exciting being dumped to some absurd initramfs 'emergency shell' and being gold i might want to save whate ever the fuck to a usb and then it doesn't let me use the keyboard and god
00:34:09 <Bike> getting fucking usb power errors it's ridiculous
00:35:09 <oerjan> Bike: well i won't help you as my recent logreading has uncovered evidence that you may be a tzetze fly posing as a bike.
00:35:55 <oerjan> (also because i have no clue how to fix linux.)
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00:37:23 <FreeFull> I certainly don't know as much about Linux as a kernel hacker or sysadmin would
00:43:54 <olsner> a kernel hacker wouldn't necessarily know much about what goes on in the rest of the system
00:44:09 <olsner> "that's a userspace problem"
00:46:05 <kmc> indeed the APIs used within the kernel are often a lot cleaner than the APIs by which userspace talks to the kernel
00:46:22 <kmc> because there is no stability requirement on the former and a near-absolute stability requirement on the latter
00:49:19 <olsner> I think windows had the right idea with putting all "kernel" APIs in userspace and making the real kernel api private (but I do wonder exactly how freely they can actually change that)
00:49:49 <kmc> they do some pretty insane compatibility hacks within that "userspace" component
00:51:46 <Sgeo> http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/01/05/3120451/wyoming-law-says-better-drive-high-possess-unsmoked-joint/
00:57:56 <mauke> olsner: oh, is that what they do?
00:58:14 <mauke> I never understood windows programming and none of the resources I read spelled it out
01:02:01 <olsner> at the bottom there's a DLL exporting functions for all "syscalls" that does int X/sysenter/syscall with the appropriate syscall number (and those change wildly between windows versions)
01:02:36 <olsner> (but even that might technically not be part of the API you're allowed to rely on, not entirely sure)
01:03:15 <mauke> is there a windows programming book for unix people?
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01:06:16 <pikhq> olsner: kernel32.dll actually is guaranteed solid API.
01:06:29 <pikhq> Though the name is a bit of a misnomer.
01:06:47 <pikhq> It was kinda-sorta the kernel in 16-bit Windows.
01:07:11 <mauke> and that's why it's called kernel32 amirite
01:07:39 <pikhq> All DLLs that were in 16-bit Windows made it to 32-bit Windows by just adding a "32" suffix.
01:07:45 <Bike> usb 5-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32. supposedly indicates automatic shutoff of usb device due to high power draw. but the usb devices work fine on another OS on the same computer.
01:07:57 <pikhq> Also, this kinda-sorta was the case on Windows 9x.
01:08:21 <olsner> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_API is more what I was thinking about, seems to be below kernel32.dll maybe
01:08:35 <pikhq> Windows is made up of dubious legacy decisions.
01:09:27 <kmc> computer is made up of dubious legacy decisions
01:09:44 <Bike> life is made up of dubious legacy decisions
01:09:47 <pikhq> Though in the case of Windows it's decisions that were dubious at the time far too often.
01:10:03 <Bike> lfimduodboseayeiin
01:10:38 <pikhq> (what sort of monster would use UTF-16 in '93?!?)
01:10:53 <mauke> did UTF-16 exist then?
01:11:09 <pikhq> Well, arguably UCS-2 is the proper name.
01:11:24 <mauke> UTF-16 is from 1996
01:11:34 <kmc> if you believed the Unicode people when they said it would remain a 16-bit code, then using UCS-2 seems sensible
01:11:53 <kmc> and that switch happened in 1996 yeah
01:12:33 <pikhq> Except that Windows at the time did crazy stuff to make 16-bit code build on Win32. But didn't seem to care about the idea of making Unicode-unaware code work in Unicode land.
01:12:43 <pikhq> And indeed still don't.
01:14:36 <pikhq> And now Windows is a crazy land where you either do UTF-16 or do 8-bit legacy charsets.
01:16:15 <mauke> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/99884
01:16:15 * pikhq honestly doesn't know why they don't let you just use UTF-8 for their char* APIs
01:17:21 <olsner> nice, wikipedia seems to have quite a lot of articles about windows internals
01:17:26 <pikhq> Not all that relevant. UTF-16 was a bad decision at the time.
01:17:42 <mauke> UTF-16 didn't exist at the time
01:17:58 <pikhq> UCS-2 was a bad decision.
01:18:00 <mauke> nor did UTF-8, probably
01:18:06 <pikhq> UTF-8 certainly did.
01:18:24 <pikhq> UTF-8 was *new* to be sure, but hey.
01:18:41 <pikhq> Plan 9 was completely on UTF-8 in September '92.
01:19:34 <mauke> draft unicode standard: 1988; first unicode volume: 1991; windows nt release: 1993
01:19:40 <mauke> utf-8 first officially presented: 1993
01:19:57 <pikhq> It also doesn't matter that much: UCS-2 was an awful decision even if there was no alternative way of encoding Unicode.
01:20:12 <coppro> Windows has had enough opportunities to redesign that portion of the code and keep legacy APIs around only where necessary
01:20:12 <kmc> my theory is that they had to pretend it would stay a 16-bit code or nobody would adopt it at all
01:21:53 <Sgeo> I should try to learn about Windows internals
01:22:54 <pikhq> "Hmm, all text is in ASCII or a superset thereof. Let's use something completely incompatible! Oh, and then make it so that everyone has to rewrite all their code to work with it. Great!"
01:23:00 <kmc> Sgeo: nooooo you have so much to live for
01:23:16 <Sgeo> kmc: but everyone else here knows Windows internals. It sounds fun
01:23:37 <mauke> pikhq: but they were getting ready for The Future!
01:24:29 <pikhq> This from a company that is yet to break DOS compatibility.
01:25:40 <mauke> don't knock DOS. it lets you use / as a directory separator! it's practically unix
01:31:51 <kmc> but doesn't it also use / for flags
01:35:54 <Bike> http://paste.debian.net/74463/ woot woot.
01:55:37 <ais523> kmc: there's an option to have / as separator and - for flags
01:55:41 <ais523> but it's kind-of hidden
01:57:03 <olsner> does it actually work, or does it only work for programs that happen to use some DOS api for parsing the command line?
01:58:03 <ais523> olsner: probably the latter
01:59:03 <kmc> iirc on DOS/Windows a program gets a single arg string and not an argv
01:59:16 <kmc> it's the job of the c stdlib to break it up for main()
01:59:47 <ais523> kmc: on DOS, the first command argument is actually parsed out into a file control block for you
01:59:59 <ais523> but people stopped using that feature after a while because it's too inflexible
02:00:50 <FreeFull> minimum ascending number partition
02:01:25 <FreeFull> So for example, 18249 could be partitioned into [18,249]
02:02:15 <kmc> ais523: what? so they just assume the first arg will be a file?
02:02:17 <lifthrasiir> I don't get the point, [1,8,2,4,9] would be the best
02:02:43 <ais523> kmc: if it isn't, you don't use the FCB
02:02:46 <lifthrasiir> so you can partition any part of the numeric string but the parts should be increasing, right?
02:02:49 <ais523> but yeah, really inflexible
02:02:53 <ais523> also it doesn't work with directories
02:02:55 <FreeFull> A worst case would be something like 987654321
02:02:55 <ais523> drive and filename only
02:03:02 <ais523> so people don't use it past, like, DOS 1
02:03:58 <FreeFull> Which would partition into [9,876,54321] I think
02:04:43 <FreeFull> Yeah, I think [9,876,54321] is minimal
02:05:48 <FreeFull> Note that in unary, all partitionings are minimal
02:06:01 <FreeFull> So binary is the first interesting case
02:06:46 <FreeFull> Can't do this to complex numbers since those don't have a built-in ordering
02:13:43 <oerjan> > sum [98,765,4321] -- i disagree
02:16:43 <oerjan> now find one where minimizing the length of the final one is _not_ optimal.
02:17:33 <oerjan> FreeFull: should it be strictly ascending
02:18:39 <Bike> i don't even know what's causing this error.
02:18:44 <Bike> what's reporting the error
02:18:53 <FreeFull> Let's try the first 7 digits of pi
02:20:10 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know a way to raise a continued fraction (given as a left-to-right digit generator) can be raised to a power (also a continued fraction in the same format)?
02:20:13 <oerjan> 3 14 15 92 looks plausible
02:21:06 <Bike> quintopia: integer power?
02:21:14 <FreeFull> I wonder if we should stay as strictly ascending, or if we should make it strictly non-descending
02:21:57 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't even know if there's an efficient way to _add_ numbers.
02:22:14 <quintopia> Bike: i don't even know a way to do it with integer power except a crap ton of adding and multiplying using the binomial theorem, but i want to know about real powers too.
02:22:32 <Bike> presumably you'd exponentiate
02:23:42 <FreeFull> oerjan: adding only inefficient if the bottom part of the fraction is the same
02:25:41 <oerjan> > sum [2,7,18,28,182] -- tip, there's never a point in keeping the first two digits together if they're ascending
02:26:03 <quintopia> this problem FreeFull posed seems almost as difficult as the one about free-form series for brainfuck constants
02:27:13 <FreeFull> I think extending that to multiple digits is the answer
02:27:14 <oerjan> i think any example that _doesn't_ fulfil my idea of making the length of the last one minimal must be pretty long.
02:28:44 <int-e> > sum [98,765,4321]
02:29:15 <oerjan> FreeFull: something like 12121212121212199
02:29:39 <oerjan> > sum [1,2,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,199]
02:30:12 <oerjan> > sum [1,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,99]
02:31:00 <oerjan> > sum [1,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,99]
02:31:03 <FreeFull> oerjan: Not strictly ascending anymore
02:31:07 <oerjan> > sum [1,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,21,99]
02:31:17 <oerjan> > sum [1,2,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,199]
02:31:45 <oerjan> FreeFull: i didn't hear a clear policy statement on that.
02:31:59 <FreeFull> Let's make it strictly ascending, for now
02:32:45 <FreeFull> It's the only case where you could have a longer sequence followed by a shorter one
02:33:04 <int-e> for 10000000, you can't split the sequence at all.
02:33:16 <oerjan> i would have assumed you cannot have initial zeros.
02:33:18 <FreeFull> int-e: Yeah, there are unsplittable numbers
02:33:41 <FreeFull> I wonder how the ratio of unsplittable to splittable changes
02:34:09 <int-e> well, you can split off the first digit for almost all numbers
02:34:20 <FreeFull> All one-digit numbers are unsplittable
02:34:44 <FreeFull> Two digit numbers are unsplittable if the first digit is larger or equal to the second
02:35:04 <FreeFull> Should we count 03 as a two-digit number?
02:35:58 <oerjan> int-e: splitting off the first digit isn't always optimal.
02:36:06 <FreeFull> If we do, that's 10 + 9 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 unsplittable two-digit numbers, I think
02:37:17 <quintopia> wow i don't like the strictly ascending rule. narrows the possibilities too much
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02:38:51 <int-e> FreeFull: 45 splittable, 55 non-splittable, that includes numbers with leading zeros like 00.
02:40:24 <FreeFull> Three-digit numbers are trickier
02:40:35 <mauke> http://www.twitch.tv/speeddemosarchivesda
02:41:09 <FreeFull> Actually, for three digit numbers it might just depend on the first two digits anyway
02:41:20 <int-e> FreeFull: not really. 55 of those are non-splittable.
02:41:38 <int-e> FreeFull: because if the middle digit is non-zero then the number is splittable
02:42:11 <int-e> that has a zero center digit
02:43:20 <FreeFull> Hmm, 001 to 009 are splittable
02:43:55 <int-e> a(0)b is splittable if a < b.
02:44:01 <int-e> it's the same as with two digits.
02:45:10 <int-e> 55 nonsplittable ones, again
02:45:25 <FreeFull> n000 is non-splittable, trivially
02:45:37 <FreeFull> For any number of zeroes after the n
02:46:02 <FreeFull> And then I guess there is a00b for any number of 0s
02:46:12 <int-e> more to the point, you can split abcd into a,bcd if bc>0 or if a<b.
02:47:10 <FreeFull> So are there only 55 non-splittable numbers total, for any fixed digit size?
02:47:21 <int-e> greater than 1, yes.
02:47:30 <FreeFull> What if it's not fixed? so 10 and 010 are different
02:47:46 <quintopia> int-e: 2011 meets your criterion doesn't it?
02:48:23 <int-e> quintopia: no, bc was juxtaposition there. but we allowed leading zeros.
02:48:28 <FreeFull> I bet the ratio is actually something quite boring
02:49:06 <FreeFull> Leading zeros make any number instantly splittable
02:50:35 <int-e> FreeFull: We treated 10 and 010 as different inputs in that analysis.
02:50:47 <int-e> 10 is not splittable; 010 is.
02:51:03 <int-e> so we're really working with digit strings at the moment.
02:51:52 <FreeFull> The notion of splitting doesn't really work if you aren't working with digit strings
02:53:21 <int-e> well, you can still forbid leading zeros in the input sequence and/or the parts of the output sequence.
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02:57:32 <FreeFull> You could get rid of zeros altogether
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03:02:18 <Bike> i'm getting actual kernel panics fuuuuuck
03:03:15 <FreeFull> Some mathematician probably has already gone over this ages ago
03:03:25 <FreeFull> Bike: Could be just hardware failure
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03:05:05 <quintopia> FreeFull: i actually think it's a new problem
03:05:33 <FreeFull> quintopia: I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't
03:06:05 <quintopia> cutting edge mathematicians i guess
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03:11:08 <int-e> > let v = foldl' (\n r -> n*10+r) 0;m = minimumBy (comparing sum);b [] = [[[]]];b xs = let b' = b (tail xs) in [v n : m t' | (n,t) <- zip (tail (inits xs)) b', let t' = filter (\t -> null t || v n <= head t) t, not (null t')] : b'; f = m . head . b . map (fromIntegral . digitToInt) . show in f 987654321
03:11:28 <int-e> > let v = foldl' (\n r -> n*10+r) 0;m = minimumBy (comparing sum);b [] = [[[]]];b xs = let b' = b (tail xs) in [v n : m t' | (n,t) <- zip (tail (inits xs)) b', let t' = filter (\t -> null t || v n <= head t) t, not (null t')] : b'; f = m . head . b . map (fromIntegral . digitToInt) . show in f 9876543210
03:12:16 <int-e> > let v = foldl' (\n r -> n*10+r) 0;m = minimumBy (comparing sum);b [] = [[[]]];b xs = let b' = b (tail xs) in [v n : m t' | (n,t) <- zip (tail (inits xs)) b', let t' = filter (\t -> null t || v n <= head t) t, not (null t')] : b'; f = m . head . b . map (fromIntegral . digitToInt) . show in f 1212121212121212199
03:12:26 <int-e> > let v = foldl' (\n r -> n*10+r) 0;m = minimumBy (comparing sum);b [] = [[[]]];b xs = let b' = b (tail xs) in [v n : m t' | (n,t) <- zip (tail (inits xs)) b', let t' = filter (\t -> null t || v n < head t) t, not (null t')] : b'; f = m . head . b . map (fromIntegral . digitToInt) . show in f 1212121212121212199
03:12:50 <int-e> No, it's the "natural" dynamic programming approach. So it's rather efficient.
03:13:34 <quintopia> not clear what the natural dynamic programming approach would be here
03:18:54 <int-e> Well, we have this sequence d_i (1 <= i <= n) of digits that we somehow split into numbers. Assume that one of these numbers is d_(k..l). Then how to split d_(l+1)...d_n optimally does not depend on d_1..d_(k-1).
03:20:58 <FreeFull> @let splitOptimal = f where v = foldl' (\n r -> n*10+r) 0;m = minimumBy (comparing sum);b [] = [[[]]];b xs = let b' = b (tail xs) in [v n : m t' | (n,t) <- zip (tail (inits xs)) b', let t' = filter (\t -> null t || v n < head t) t, not (null t')] : b'; f = m . head . b . map (fromIntegral . digitToInt) . show
03:20:59 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show a0) arising from a use of `show'
03:20:59 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
03:20:59 <lambdabot> Possible cause: the monomorphism restriction applied to the following:
03:20:59 <lambdabot> splitOptimal :: a0 -> [Integer] (bound at .L.hs:143:1)
03:21:35 <FreeFull> @let splitOptimal :: Show a => a -> [Integer]; splitOptimal = f where v = foldl' (\n r -> n*10+r) 0;m = minimumBy (comparing sum);b [] = [[[]]];b xs = let b' = b (tail xs) in [v n : m t' | (n,t) <- zip (tail (inits xs)) b', let t' = filter (\t -> null t || v n < head t) t, not (null t')] : b'; f = m . head . b . map (fromIntegral . digitToInt) . show
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03:22:40 <int-e> v n < head t <-- that's the strictly increasing version.
03:23:04 <FreeFull> It'd be nice to have some sort of proof it is optimal
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03:23:13 <int-e> > splitOptimal $ 2^100
03:23:14 <lambdabot> [1,2,6,76,506,22822,94014,96703,205376]
03:27:41 <FreeFull> I see, it just truncates the zeroes off
03:28:54 <int-e> @let splitOptimalS = f where v = foldl' (\n r -> n*10+r) 0;m = minimumBy (comparing sum);b [] = [[[]]];b xs = let b' = b (tail xs) in [v n : m t' | (n,t) <- zip (tail (inits xs)) b', let t' = filter (\t -> null t || v n < head t) t, not (null t')] : b'; f = m . head . b . map (fromIntegral . digitToInt)
03:29:23 <int-e> > splitOptimalS "000000000000001" -- hmm, it'll still drop zeros in the output.
03:41:01 <int-e> quintopia: http://sprunge.us/fPSP works out a couple of steps of the dynamic programming idea.
03:42:33 <quintopia> int-e: no what little you explained is enough. it's kind of what i was thinking of anyway.
03:44:05 <quintopia> int-e: and the running time should be something like n^2?
03:45:37 <int-e> n^3, I think (for each pair 1 <= k < l <= n, we have up to n candidate lists to sift through. Oh and as implemented it's worse, because the sums of the list elements are not cached.)
03:47:56 <quintopia> int-e: it still looks like n^2 to me (not counting the recomputation of sums)
03:48:29 <quintopia> int-e: if it's n^3, what are the three dimensions of the "table"?
03:48:39 <int-e> quintopia: just look at the worked out example; there are O(n^2) rows, and each row has O(n) lists to consider.
03:48:51 <int-e> quintopia: there are only two dimensions, but computing each entry takes O(n) steps.
03:49:55 <int-e> (Which I think can be reduced to O(log(n)) but that would be messy and require arrays, perhaps even mutable ones. So ... no.)
03:51:15 <quintopia> oh i see. n^3, but the coefficient is very low (like 1/3 maybe)
03:53:42 <Sgeo> "ask for 11 numbers to be read into a sequence S"
03:53:46 <Sgeo> wtf is this shit? Groovy?
03:53:57 <Sgeo> I thought Groovy was supposed to be like a scripting Java
03:54:08 <myndzi> i feel slightly embarrassed every time i go to hang out in sda chat because i have ops and probably nobody knows why
03:54:15 <Sgeo> Oh, that's from pseudocode describing an algorithm
03:55:28 <int-e> Pah. A program should not simply ask for numbers. It should beg, it should plead, it should grovel!
03:56:59 <int-e> YUCK. (x > 400 ? cout << "TOO LARGE" : cout << x) << endl
03:57:21 <int-e> Somebody really went out of their way to prove that C++ code would be shorter than C.
04:02:44 <Bike> << returns the stream?
04:02:48 <pikhq> x > 400 && puts("TOO LARGE"); // Like this?
04:03:21 <int-e> Bike: yes. that's why std::cout << x << "," << y << std::endl; works.
04:05:00 <pikhq> x > 400 || printf("%d\n", x) && puts("TOO LARGE"); I think.
04:06:52 <int-e> pikhq: use ?:. printf returns the number of characters printed.
04:07:14 <int-e> So when x <= 400, that will print x and also TOO LARGE.
04:07:46 <FreeFull> You only need one printf and cleverness
04:08:19 <pikhq> Note that printf's arguments not matching the format spec is UB.
04:11:12 <int-e> And x was supposed to be a double.
04:12:33 <Bike> hm, there's nothing like sprintf except returning a new string. HOW UNFUNCTIONAL
04:12:51 <shachaf> Is there a standard definition of topological spaces that doesn't use weird set-theoretic concepts like "union" and "intersection" and "subset" but instead talks about monomorphisms and maybe pullbacks or something like that?
04:12:58 <shachaf> I guess maybe you could end up with the whole frame/topological system that Vickers talks about. But is there something more direct and closer to the classical definition?
04:13:19 <Bike> nice easy concepts like pullbacks
04:16:43 <int-e> I guess you could have A -> B if A \subset B. But why anybody would do that to a set of sets is beyond me.
04:17:43 <FreeFull> shachaf: homotopy theory? Not sure
04:23:12 <shachaf> http://imogenquest.net/comics/2014-01-05-podbay.jpg
04:26:38 <Bike> that's such a dumb thing
04:27:51 <shachaf> Bike: do you think there is virtue in distinguishing between one-element sets
04:28:32 <Bike> {4} and {7} seem pretty different?
04:28:50 <shachaf> but they're isomorphic...........
04:30:40 <shachaf> Bike: anyway look at section 1 of http://arxiv.org/pdf/1012.5647v3.pdf or something
04:31:47 <Bike> pst i'm not confident in basic category theory or actually anything
04:32:03 <shachaf> ok then look at http://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.6543v1.pdf
04:32:19 <shachaf> it doesn't even talk about categories
04:32:32 <Bike> i've read that and whyyyy do you direct link the pdfs :(
04:32:44 <shachaf> because that's what i have open in my browser??
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04:39:51 <shachaf> Bike: you have a zillion pdfs, right
04:39:54 <shachaf> how do you keep track of them
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04:40:33 <shachaf> also i thought you knew all of maths??
04:41:27 <Bike> vague categorizations and spite
04:41:39 <Bike> i only know the maths marked with an orange sticker
04:41:50 <shachaf> what does the orange sticker mean
04:42:37 <Bike> orange stickers mark literature for fourth grade readers
04:52:09 <Bike> is installing a linux on a hard drive from a linux on a different hard drive in the same computer a sane thing to want to do
04:52:51 <Bike> though i don't know how to do it.
04:53:25 <shachaf> anyway, some distributions make it easier than others
04:54:04 <shachaf> so it depends on what you're installing
04:55:18 <Bike> arch or debian i guess
04:55:50 <shachaf> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Hard_Disk_Installation http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch04s04.html.en hth
04:57:06 <Bike> this seems like i'll probably fuck it up
04:57:24 <shachaf> and then you can fix it, learning all around
04:58:12 <shachaf> remember the time when i wanted grub in the mbr so i did dd if=/dev/hda4 of=/dev/hda bs=512 count=1
04:58:36 <shachaf> i even made a backup in my home directory first in case something got messed up, how helpful
05:00:07 <shachaf> (the joke is that the partition table is stored in the mbr, as i discovered that day)
05:00:30 <shachaf> this is the worst sound of all sounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5h411OcttA
05:01:26 <Bike> having an install fail by the usb inexplicably not working during boot sucks
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05:48:51 <Sgeo> http://www.yopmail.com/en/alternate-email-address.php I somehow doubt this is secure
05:49:12 <Sgeo> Would have to check the code to see if it looks reasonable
05:49:16 <Sgeo> Which doesn't mean it is
05:51:14 <Sgeo> Sends the typed email over to the server to convert it, I think
05:56:11 <Jafet> Just PCI passthrough and virtualize everything with dom0 snapshot unicycle.
05:57:16 <Jafet> Huh, youtube now hosts 4 GB videos.
06:02:24 <Jafet> Sgeo: yeah they can read your email, huge vulnerability
06:03:06 <Sgeo> The question is, if random person X can get the real email address from the alias
06:03:17 <shachaf> How does translation from lambda calculus to B,C,K,W (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCKW>) work?
06:03:33 <Jafet> Depends on the distribution of X, but unlikely.
06:03:52 <Bike> translate to ski and then translate ski to bckw, oooooooobviously
06:04:13 <Bike> tht's pronounced with an 'oo' like 'cool'
06:06:03 <shachaf> is there something nice and structural like ski
06:09:12 <shachaf> ok jstor i'm not going to pay you $24 for curry's thesis from 1930 which is in german so i won't even be able to read it
06:14:39 <Bike> huh, zsh puts the return code of the last call just before your line
06:15:17 <shachaf> you can get that in bash too
06:16:57 <Jafet> Does zsh even do that "by default"?
06:21:25 <Bike> i don't know, the install thingie is, that's all i know
06:36:25 <zzo38> Now I added into HWPL, some new functions such as TAKE and PHYSICAL, and a few other things. I also made up a file of examples, although maybe it contains some errors, since it isn't tested.
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07:11:46 <zzo38> Do you like these kind of codes? FOR ?X IN ?ADDRESS BITS: BEGIN LOCAL .REG; REGISTER .REG(?DATA); CONNECT .REG TO .DATA WHEN .READ&~|(?X^.ADDRESS); LATCH .WRITE&~|(?X^.ADDRESS) SET .REG TO .DATA; END Maybe it is wrong or inefficient or something though, but it is trying to implement RAM. Also, use of TAKE and unary % operation will be like: CONNECT TAKE(MUX(%.S,{%.I1,%.I0}))&~-./E TO .Y;
07:12:53 <Bike> that is ugly as fuck.
07:14:56 <zzo38> You must hate it a lot, but I find it better. Maybe there is other feature other people hate of other hardware programming languages too; it is one reason why other people try to invent more possible hardware programming languages, isn't it?
07:15:23 <Bike> i don't mean the content, i'm just saying, that has fucking "&~|(?X^." in it, that is some fucked shit.
07:15:41 <zzo38> You can space it out more if you prefer.
07:16:15 <zzo38> The individual tokens there will be .WRITE & ~ | ( ?X ^ .ADDRESS )
07:18:12 <zzo38> Do you prefer it this way?
07:20:41 <zzo38> Is the purpose of these commands clear from the example, or not? If not, you can ask for clarification, please.
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07:35:27 <Sgeo> http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/06/tech/california-crop-circle-hoax/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
07:35:31 <Sgeo> Isn't that... vandalism?
07:35:47 <kmc> I'm alive... I'm alive.. I'm alive... and how I know it... but for chips and for freedom I could die
07:42:39 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1991-04-24/
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07:48:57 <Sgeo> "So Nvidia is marketing this new chip to braille users? This way blind people can see computer graphics more clearly with vivid colors. It turned out to be a public service announcement. Mystery solved!"
08:03:02 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle
08:03:08 <Sgeo> I'm not used to thinking of this as disproved
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08:24:19 <zzo38> Which instructions sets would include a triple-indirect-jump-with-post-increment instruction?
08:33:26 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, like that
08:34:02 <ais523> I can't think of an instruction set that would allow that, but not arbitrary combinations of addressing modes
08:38:42 <Sgeo> Kind of bothers me that all .bit registrations are browsable
08:38:56 <Sgeo> Doesn't DNS attempt to deliberately prevent browsing of all registrations?
08:39:00 <Sgeo> Or am I mistaken?
08:39:25 <ais523> hmm… I think there's a much simpler Zooko's triangle solution
08:39:37 <ais523> in particular, the web-of-trust that's used for public keychains
08:40:04 <ais523> it's obviously decentralized, it's secure in that you know exactly how much you trust each individual entry
08:40:27 <ais523> and it's memorable in that the keys are associated with human-readable names, and you can adopt the name associations listed by people you trust
08:41:22 <elliott> ais523: that's not a global naming system
08:41:32 <elliott> making names relative is one way of squaring the triangle
08:41:51 <ais523> elliott: hmm, the description doesn't imply "global"
08:41:53 <elliott> plus, there's no way of going name -> key uniquely
08:42:02 <ais523> and there is relative to any particular person
08:42:10 <elliott> I guess the "name" would be an IP
08:42:14 <ais523> because you can't adopt two name→key mappings with different names
08:42:16 <Sgeo> "Each application type that want to store data associated with an identity must be added in the registered applications list with a description on how data will be formatted."
08:42:20 <elliott> but then it fails human-readable (because key identifiers are not human readable)
08:42:27 <Sgeo> How decentralized
08:42:34 <ais523> I guess my goalposts are in different places from yours
08:42:55 <elliott> well, I don't even quite understand what you're proposing or how it's even a naming system I guess :/
08:44:04 <ais523> I didn't realise that the article was about naming systems
08:50:57 <Sgeo> Delegate your domain and subdomains to DNS servers:
08:50:57 <Sgeo> {"ns": ["ns0.web-sweet-web.net", "ns1.web-sweet-web.net", "ns0.xname.org"]}
08:51:09 <Sgeo> uh.... so basically, point to normal DNS?
08:52:10 <fizzie> I don't think "DNS" itself really attempts to prevent browsing of all entries, though maybe the DNSSEC no-enumeration NSEC3 stuff counts.
08:52:22 <fizzie> (Common DNS deployment practices do, sure.)
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08:53:11 <fizzie> Are .pif files still alive in some shape or form? (Sure it's relevant.)
08:56:31 <mroman> Though they should not work on windows 64-bit anymore
08:56:55 <mroman> and as far as I know windows 32 bit requires you to enable a feature to execute 16bit programs
08:57:05 <mroman> but 64bit versions don't ship with support for 16bit programs anymore
08:57:20 <zzo38> So you should need an emulator, I suppose, in such a case.
08:57:26 <mroman> and by windows 32 bit I mean windows >= 7 perhaps?
08:57:39 <mroman> windows xp executes 16bit programs by default
08:59:02 <mroman> PIF's aren't really executables
08:59:37 <Sgeo> Ooh, I should try to get Microsoft Ants working in VM
09:00:10 <Sgeo> It's to blame for my habit of saying ??? when I'm confused (I did eventually drop that habit)
09:00:57 <mroman> Can PIFs point to 32/64bit programs?
09:03:05 <fizzie> Interweb is saying that 32-bit Windows 8 still makes a .pif file if you try to make a shortcut to a 16-bit DOS executable.
09:04:23 <mroman> Windows 64bit might still do that without being able to actually run a 16bit program
09:04:44 <mroman> which would not be really helpful at all
09:05:21 <mroman> where can I see if I have Win64?
09:06:53 <mroman> rightclick -> create shortcut on a .com-file does not work
09:07:04 <mroman> but I just created an empty txt file and renamed it to com
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09:28:15 <oklopol> so i did some google searching with python
09:28:30 <oklopol> and apparently google banned me forever (except if i use chrome)
09:28:54 <oklopol> i did a search every minute or so, and when the search failed i added another minute
09:29:15 <fizzie> That's what they have APIs for.
09:29:25 <b_jonas> ioccc winning sources are released
09:29:41 <oklopol> i found apis for everything but search
09:29:56 <fizzie> oklopol: Why didn't you... Google for it.
09:30:08 <oklopol> but it seemed too hard to use
09:30:56 <fizzie> "Don’t misuse our Services. For example, don't -- try to access them using a method other than the interface and the instructions that we provide."
09:31:30 <oklopol> are you talking about the deprecated one?
09:31:52 <mroman> Fun fact: If you desperately google for something
09:32:06 <oklopol> the custom search they link looked more like something that lets you put a search box on your website
09:32:21 <mroman> I got banned googlig (manually) for about 10 minutes.
09:33:14 <oklopol> well obviously i haven't checked that
09:33:37 <mroman> but I thought they give you the chance to answer a captcha
09:33:56 <oklopol> probably, i don't know what's going on because i'm using pygoogle
09:33:59 <mroman> to prove that your not some bot.
09:33:59 <oklopol> and i don't know what it does
09:34:11 <fizzie> oklopol: That may be what it looks like, but it has the https://developers.google.com/custom-search/json-api/v1/overview half.
09:35:17 <fizzie> (Also the "custom search box" side is not only for "search my site only", but also "make a topical search engine that rewrites queries" or whatnot.)
09:35:23 <oklopol> if it comes out as json then it's already a million times harder than pygoogle
09:36:17 <b_jonas> C and C++ have so crazy corners
09:37:53 <oklopol> wow that sounds complicated
09:38:15 <oklopol> i have used an api key thingie once but it was php so i could just copypaste stuff
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09:40:12 <oklopol> For smaller sites, Google Site Search starts at just $100 for up to 20,000 annual searches. For usage above one million searches, enterprise-level support and offline purchasing are available.
09:40:27 <oklopol> 20000 annual ones is 100 dollars?
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09:40:41 <oklopol> i need to do 1400 queries, i figured that's nothing
09:40:50 <fizzie> GSS is a whole another thing than CSE, though.
09:41:24 <fizzie> "For CSE users, the API provides 100 search queries per day for free. If you need more, you may sign up for billing in the Cloud Console. Additional requests cost $5 per 1000 queries, up to 10k queries per day."
09:42:40 <fizzie> What's this "pygoogle" anyway? The first hit I get just goes "Unfortunately, Google no longer supports the SOAP API for search, nor do they provide new license keys. In a nutshell, PyGoogle is pretty much dead at this point", and the second and third ones seemed to be using the deprecated-but-still-working web search APIs. (Which I think has just a "50 queries per day without an API key" limit ...
09:42:46 <fizzie> ... and no more complicated bans than that.)
09:43:19 <oklopol> pygoogle is what i found by searching for python google search
09:43:41 <oklopol> also xgoogle and some other thing but someone somewhere said they don't work anymore so i didn't try them
09:44:03 <fizzie> There's also the https://developers.google.com/api-client-library/python/start/get_started thing.
09:44:28 <oklopol> apparently i never found the page that's the first hit with "pygoogle"
09:44:33 <oklopol> (i never searched for pygoogle)
09:45:14 <fizzie> (The official Google-provided Python thing does seem to list Custom Search as one of their supported APIs. But it does have that 100-queries-a-day limit if you want it to be entirely free.)
09:45:37 <oklopol> that looks like i need to spend hours decrypting it
09:46:05 <oklopol> pygoogle was more like import pygoogle and a = pygoogle.search(url).number_or_results()
09:46:12 <oklopol> but yeah i guess i need to do that
09:46:35 <oklopol> money is not an issue, but yeah paying is a bit too complicated
09:47:13 <fizzie> The "Simple API example" code is not really all that more complicated.
09:48:02 <fizzie> And it's also not terribly complicated to make a "project" in their "console"; I did that once for their big-data query-executing thingamajick.
09:49:19 <fizzie> (Though I admit they could provide more "anonymous access is supported with one query per minute" kind of features.)
09:49:43 <oklopol> it's probably not complicated once you get it, but understanding apis and such is the hardest thing in the world
09:50:13 <fizzie> (It's not like they'd notice that in their flood of search requests via the web interface, and nobody's going to be building a Real Service on something like that, hopefully.)
09:50:40 <oklopol> yeah basically my hope was that they wouldn't mind me slowly querying over the night
09:51:13 <fizzie> You should've probably just used something that crawls the web interface for that. :p
09:51:46 <fizzie> They got (in 2013), on average, 5922000000 requests per day.
09:52:15 <oklopol> i considered that, but again that sounded a bit complicated
09:52:55 <oklopol> especially as i'm on linux and i have no idea how the api works (or whatever it's called)
09:53:36 <fizzie> gcolor used to just use the web interface of Google image search, because they didn't have a programmatic API for it at the time.
09:54:29 <fizzie> Actually, I'm not sure if they do have one now either.
09:55:26 <fizzie> Apparently, since that, they made one and deprecated it already, then spent some more time API-less, then added image search functionality in the Custom Search thing.
09:58:15 <oklopol> i tried to make an api key and now i made a client id and have no idea how to make an api key
09:58:31 <oklopol> and i have no idea what a client id is
09:59:30 <fizzie> Apparently it's for those things that require authentication.
09:59:47 <fizzie> I don't think the custom search one does.
10:02:00 <fizzie> From what I recall, the "workflow" is such that you get in the google cloud service buzzword developer console, make a "project", go to "APIs" and toggle the ones you want to use "on", then go to "credentials" and select the "Public API access" one (and not the "OAuth Client ID" one).
10:02:49 <fizzie> I think I need to go meet some relatives now.
10:03:05 <oklopol> i need to do the same soon
10:06:54 <ion> http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm
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13:21:21 <Taneb> `learn arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors
13:21:36 <HackEgo> arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors
13:21:42 <Taneb> `learn Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors
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15:43:34 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
15:43:46 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
15:43:54 <HackEgo> Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors
15:44:05 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/arrow
15:44:13 <HackEgo> Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
15:44:42 <oerjan> Taneb: YOU JUST CANNOT PLEASE US, GIVE UP
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15:49:59 <oerjan> `run echo nixon | grep '/bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls/'
15:50:24 <oerjan> `run echo clinton | grep '/bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls/'
15:50:41 <oerjan> `run echo nixon | grep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:50:50 <oerjan> `run echo clinton | grep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:51:29 <oerjan> i think munroe is bullshitting.
15:52:14 <oerjan> mrhmouse: i only started checking because i vaguely recalled nixon was _both_ a president and an opponent.
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15:53:27 <mrhmouse> oerjan: I didn't know that! Either way, the regex doesn't contain an 'x' (so Nixon is right out). It's also missing an 'ob', so the current president is out as well.
15:53:29 <oerjan> `run echo test | grep 'e|a'
15:53:53 <oerjan> `run echo nixon | egrep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:54:06 <oerjan> ok i was just doing something wrong
15:54:30 <oerjan> Taneb: you got closer than usual, i admit
15:54:46 <Taneb> Maybe next time I'll get there
15:54:52 <mrhmouse> oerjan: am I missing something about that regex, or are my eyes just too tired to read it properly?
15:54:54 <oerjan> `run echo obama | egrep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:55:08 <oerjan> mrhmouse: it's not anchored at the ends, might be it.
15:55:19 <Taneb> `run echo romney | egrep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:55:22 <mrhmouse> Ahhh, it's only partially matching.
15:55:22 <oerjan> `run echo kerry | egrep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:56:04 <Taneb> `run echo abbott | egrep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:56:19 <Taneb> Conclusion: Tony Abbott isn't president of the US
15:56:25 <mrhmouse> `run echo obama | egrep -o 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:56:32 <mrhmouse> Yeah, that's what I was missing.
15:59:29 <oerjan> `run echo carter | egrep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
15:59:56 <oerjan> he of course was also an opponent, since he lost to reagan. iirc.
16:04:10 <Taneb> Didn't Nixon lose to Kennedy?
16:04:24 <oerjan> yes that's what i was remembering
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16:19:49 <quintopia> there are quite a number of presidents who were also opponents, so i imagine the list of "don't match" strings is a good bit shorter
16:21:46 <oerjan> `run echo ford | egrep 'bu|[rn]t|[coy]e|[mtg]a|j|iso|n[hl]|[ae]d|lev|sh|[lnd]i|[po]o|ls'
16:22:42 <oerjan> (the only one who was an opponent, a president, but never elected as one)
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17:04:50 <mroman> Can HackEgo pipe to haskell?
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18:27:17 <tswett> Here's a language for you.
18:27:21 <tswett> The program is a graph.
18:27:55 <tswett> The memory state consists of a coloring of its nodes black or white. Initially, all nodes are black.'
18:28:34 <tswett> One execution step consists of nondeterministically selecting a node that's the same color as a majority of its neighbors, and flipping its color.
18:28:44 <tswett> Execution halts when there are no longer any such nodes.
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18:29:25 <tswett> ("A majority", as always, means "more than half".)
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18:38:49 <coppro> tswett: nondeterministically as in a nondeterminisitc automaton, or as in random?
18:39:52 <tswett> Let's say nondeterministic as in "unspecified behavior".
18:40:01 <tswett> Which, I suppose, isn't necessarily nondeterministic at all.
18:42:33 <coppro> I mean does it pick an ideal path, or just according to some probability distribution/
18:43:55 <tswett> A valid implementation can use any method to select the node. In particular, it doesn't have to pick an ideal path.
18:47:08 <coppro> i.e. assume it's adversarial
18:48:28 <FreeFull> tswett: How would that be used to commpute things?
18:49:33 <coppro> FreeFull: you would have to ensure that every possible path gives you a useful result
18:50:04 <tswett> I'm trying to think how you could propagate a signal, like you'd have to in a CA.
18:50:47 <coppro> tswett: undirected graph?
18:51:32 <coppro> the problem I see is fanning out
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18:51:42 <coppro> once you have that you can propagate an arbitrary distance by shrinking at each step
18:52:06 <coppro> reuse is also a problem. I don't see how most components would reset
18:52:27 <tswett> Yeah, I don't immediately see how you could make something that continues running forever.
18:54:12 <FreeFull> I don't think this is turing complete
18:58:53 <myname> i would however force it to be deterministic
19:00:55 <tswett> Using a directed graph instead would make this a lot easier.
19:01:15 <tswett> I think you could construct logic gates pretty trivially.
19:01:31 <myname> you start getting near petri nets now
19:02:10 <tswett> Oh, that reminds me. Petri nets of song lyrics would look pretty cool.
19:03:14 <tswett> A Petri net where each transition is labeled with a fragment of a song's lyrics.
19:03:45 <tswett> The Petri net executes deterministically (because there's only one possible execution path), and the order of execution produces the song's lyrics.
19:05:27 <tswett> So, imagine a net with three places, A, B, and C. Initially, A has 11 tokens, B has none, and C has I-dunno-a-bunch.
19:06:04 <tswett> There's a transition labeled "NAH" taking one token from A and putting one token in B. Then there's a transition labeled "HEY JUDE" taking 14 tokens from B and one from C, and putting one in A.
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19:06:27 <tswett> The result is that you get "NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH HEY JUDE" a bunch of times.
19:11:22 <coppro> tswett: I'm not sure a directed graph is TC. I'm still unsure about how resets would work
19:11:29 <coppro> actually, you might be able to get away with this
19:11:56 <coppro> NAND and FANOUT are all you need for TC, right?
19:12:10 <coppro> or AND, OR, NOT, FANOUT?
19:12:20 <coppro> FANOUT is trivial, so that's easy
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19:12:56 <coppro> oh wait, just need AND and NOT since that gets NAND
19:13:01 <tswett> You can make NOT just by doing FANOUT to two and having both of them point at another node.
19:13:02 <coppro> AND is also easy, which just leaves NOT
19:13:18 <coppro> oh I completely forgot the semantics
19:13:25 <coppro> with directed graphs it's easily TC
19:14:23 <lambdabot> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/system-io.html
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19:20:41 <lambdabot> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/System-IO.html
19:21:39 <tswett> So, how am I going to make this Petri net...
19:25:23 <tswett> Some fragments, like "HEY JUDE", are used all over the place. So I'd probably just have a "HEY JUDE 'in' place" and a "HEY JUDE 'out' place", and the HEY JUDE transition just takes from one and puts in the other, and... yeah.
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19:50:51 <quintopia> are you writing a petri program that prints the hey jude lyrics
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19:55:51 <tswett> I was, and then I got bored.
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20:48:27 <shachaf> kmc: you can't look up anything from this book on the google without finding spoilers :'(
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20:59:30 <ion> How to Fix a Guitar http://youtu.be/glxAKmY8p1k
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21:07:05 <ion> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140106/00442525768/fbi-admits-its-not-really-about-law-enforcement-any-more-ignores-lots-crimes-to-focus-creating-fake-terror-plots.shtml
21:10:52 <int-e> Ah, national security theater
21:11:50 <int-e> I can't even blame them much ... the easiest way to find a terrorist plot is to make one up yourself.
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21:23:29 <b_jonas> I just filed my second bug report to gcc ever.
21:24:06 <b_jonas> I think that counts as esoteric programming work because it needed some abuse of the C++ language.
21:24:36 <mauke> gcc has an asm injection bug
21:25:32 <b_jonas> mauke: do you mean the old one that involves strange filename for #line directives?
21:25:45 <mauke> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=52554#c3
21:27:57 <b_jonas> the starting dollar marks an immediate number there in the assembler, right?
21:28:07 <b_jonas> gcc should quote or mangle it, or reject it
21:28:28 <b_jonas> I agree it's a bug if it doesn't do any of those
21:28:48 <b_jonas> and yes, that counts as suitably esoteric as well
21:30:12 <mauke> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20140 this one was reported in 2005 and fixed in 2012
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21:32:55 <b_jonas> I'll now try to understand the C++ overloading rules to figure out whether I can reproduce the crazyness I want without variadic functions and preferably without templates
21:34:07 <mauke> what craziness is this?
21:35:30 <tswett> What happens when you cast something to void?
21:35:38 <b_jonas> tswett: nothing special. the value is lost.
21:35:46 <shachaf> I wish C++ supported void values. :-(
21:35:48 <b_jonas> you can cast anything to void to get a void expression
21:35:52 <b_jonas> no, void values don't exist
21:36:31 <b_jonas> you can use void expressions as a statement, or as the left argument of the comma operator, or in a few other places
21:36:35 <tswett> b_jonas: how did you ever discover 20140?
21:36:59 <mauke> by reading this channel
21:37:04 <b_jonas> tswett: ask mauke, that wasn't me
21:37:25 <tswett> mauke: how did you ever discover 20140?
21:37:39 <b_jonas> mauke: http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=59704 is the bug, the story is a bit complicated
21:37:48 <mroman> (void)s; is used to make gcc/g++ not throw "unused variable" erros when compiling with -Werror
21:37:53 <shachaf> At least gcc supports void f(); void g { return f(); }
21:37:59 <mauke> I don't quite remember what I used the buffers for
21:38:20 <b_jonas> mroman: not only that. it has other uses too
21:38:27 <shachaf> but not void x = f(); return x; :'(
21:38:34 <b_jonas> mroman: for example, it allows you to use the comma operator on any value without fearing of triggering an overloaded comma
21:38:37 <shachaf> Er, I mean void g(), of course.
21:39:20 <tswett> Can you declare a void variable at all?
21:39:24 <b_jonas> mauke: basically, Jens Gustedt has discovered a way in C to test whether an expression in compile time constant: http://gustedt.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/testing-compile-time-constness-and-null-pointers-with-c11s-_generic/
21:39:34 <b_jonas> tswett: no, nor a void parameter
21:39:51 <b_jonas> mauke: but his solution uses a quirk that doesn't work in C++, so we were wondering if it's possible in C++ too
21:40:05 <b_jonas> mauke: I think it's possible, but there seems to be a gcc bug that breaks it
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21:41:23 <mauke> tswett: it may have been for runtime code generation
21:42:16 <b_jonas> also, cast to void can be useful to write a ?: expression where you don't care of the return value but the two arms have completely incompatible types
21:42:45 <b_jonas> and cast to void also helps in some nice macro tricks
21:42:48 <mauke> or maybe it was for the generic constructor?
21:43:00 <tswett> if condition then action1 >> return () else action2 >> return ()
21:43:34 <tswett> Isn't it nice how every language can be written in Haskell...
21:44:57 <b_jonas> well, haskell is crazy in a different way than C++ is crazy
21:45:56 <b_jonas> there might be a second gcc bug here, I'll have to examine this
21:45:59 <shachaf> if condition then void action1 else void action2
21:46:25 <mauke> if (condition) action1; else action2;
21:53:59 <b_jonas> there's something I really don't understand here
21:54:05 <b_jonas> I'll have to ask the c++ guys
21:55:10 <mauke> whoa, what's _Generic? typecase?
21:55:26 <kmc> new in C11 iirc
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22:09:03 <mauke> constexpr int v = argc - argc; compiles
22:09:05 <int-e> So do all C compilers get this right? :-)
22:09:29 <int-e> That is ... interesting.
22:09:32 <mauke> but covl(0, v) says it's nonconstant
22:10:30 <int-e> char *p; constexpr ptr_diff_t d = (p+4) - p; // is this supposed to work?
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22:12:22 <mauke> too esoteric for me
22:12:29 <b_jonas> there's no second bug, it was a misunderstanding at my part
22:13:04 <b_jonas> mauke: v doesn't convert to a pointer but 1*v does, because v is an lvalue
22:13:06 <mauke> elliott: http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=59704
22:13:10 <olsner> int-e: I think p+4 may be undefined, depending on what p points to
22:13:19 <b_jonas> mauke: only _prvalue_ constant expressions of integral type and value zero convert to a null pointer
22:13:31 <b_jonas> (not counting nullptr_t expressions)
22:14:05 <b_jonas> mauke: so v must not convert to a null pointer
22:14:23 <b_jonas> not even if you say const int v = 0;
22:15:07 <mauke> try.cc:5:32: error: '* &<anonymous>' is not a constant expression
22:15:07 <mauke> const constexpr int &v = argc-argc;
22:15:37 <b_jonas> mauke: good luck trying to understand C++, I must go now
22:16:45 <int-e> olsner: I was speculating about why constexpr int v = argc - argc might be supposed to work. Taking the difference of pointers seems to be the most useful case where such cancellation might turn up.
22:17:13 <int-e> olsner: (But I don't know whether it is supposed to work.)
22:17:26 <Bike> what if argc is NaN, huh!
22:18:15 <mauke> it doesn't compile if argc is a double
22:18:27 <int-e> and argc-argc can't even overflow.
22:18:47 <mauke> I'm testing with constexpr int v = x == x;
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22:42:52 <oerjan> `run ghc -e 'putStrLn "Yes"'
22:44:14 <oerjan> `run echo 'main = putStrLn "Maybe."' | runhaskell
22:44:56 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> Can HackEgo pipe to haskell? <-- `run echo 'main = putStrLn "Yes."' | runhaskell
22:46:51 <oerjan> @tell mroman `run ghc -e 'putStrLn "This also works."'
22:49:38 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+2011 NON-BREAKING HYPHEN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS]
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23:04:00 <tswett> It definitely seems like most programming languages are subsets of Haskell.
23:04:55 <Taneb> tswett, what about Agda
23:05:07 <tswett> Agda is one of the programming languages that is not a subset of Haskell.
23:05:30 <tswett> I don't think Haskell is a subset of Agda, either. Not sure about that one.
23:05:36 <tswett> They might both be subsets of Idris.
23:06:00 <tswett> Anyway, I'm trying to think how E could be seen as a subset of Haskell.
23:06:20 <Taneb> E, esoteric, ire to see
23:06:29 <tswett> My first thought, as with all my attempts to interpret a programming language as Haskell, is "use a monad!"
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23:06:57 <oerjan> tswett: it seems to me like your graph thing is harder to program because you have all nodes be black at the outset, which means _any_ node can change on the first step.
23:07:39 <tswett> oerjan: huh, you're right.
23:09:47 <Bike> need to know the twoducks subset
23:09:52 <tswett> So, in E, there are these things called objects, and there are these things called references (which can be futures, as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_and_promises). A fancy thing you can do with an object is to "eventual send" a message to it, with some references as arguments.
23:10:11 <oerjan> Bike: obviously you need the Tardis monad somewhere.
23:10:34 <tswett> And a fancy thing you can do with a reference is to "wait" on it, given a function from an object to a reference; the result is a reference to the eventual result.
23:10:53 <tswett> Something like this: wait :: ERef a -> (EObj a -> ERef b) -> ERef b
23:11:15 <tswett> Which looks suspiciously monadic already.
23:11:28 <mauke> >>= takes a continuation
23:12:07 <tswett> If you drop the EObj constructor (and I see no reason not to), that's wait :: ERef a -> (a -> ERef b) -> ERef b. Very monadic-looking.
23:12:19 <zzo38> Yes it looks monadic, but for what category (if you don't drop the EObj)?
23:12:22 <tswett> And, of course, given an object, you can make a reference to it: a -> ERef a.
23:12:41 <tswett> Uh, give me a few moments to remember how monads and categories relate.
23:12:59 <Bike> monoid on the category of endofunctors
23:13:13 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
23:13:35 <shachaf> also i can't tell if Bike is saying that to be helpful or unhelpful or what
23:14:06 <tswett> A monad is a type of endofunctor, right? And... it sounds like the question of "what category" is just the question of what the domain of "ERef" is.
23:14:48 <shachaf> In the case of Haskell the functor is from and to the category of Haskell functions.
23:14:56 <shachaf> So it maps Haskell functions to Haskell functions.
23:15:09 <tswett> Proposal for a new conjunction: eqv'ly. "a eqv'ly b" asserts that "a" and "b" are the same thing, and means "a", or, equivalently, "b".
23:15:19 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, a monad is a endofunctor with return and join added following certain laws (or, alternatively, a Kleisli category)
23:15:32 <shachaf> a monad is just a free monad monad monad algebra
23:15:49 <tswett> A monad is just an element of the collection of monads.
23:16:36 <zzo38> But a monad needs return :: forall x. x -> m x not ERef a -> (EObj a -> ERef b) -> ERef b; so it isn't quite a monad on (->) (if you drop the EObj then it might be, if it still follows the monad laws, though)
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23:16:56 <tswett> Pretty sure this follows the monad laws.
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23:17:17 <tswett> Those are what, again...
23:17:33 <zzo38> One way to mention the monad laws is simply to say that the Kleisli category is, in fact, a category.
23:18:35 <fizzie> mauke: What if argc is a trap value?
23:19:09 <tswett> Yeah. I'm quite sure this follows the monad laws.
23:20:13 <tswett> Now, the semantics of eventual sends are really pretty complicated.
23:23:39 <tswett> You have an event queue (which need not actually be a queue, but does need to have certain ordering properties). Every ERef is a reference to the result of one of these events (perhaps an event that hasn't happened yet).
23:24:14 <tswett> I think that, at least to an approximation, creating an ERef is the same thing as putting an event on the queue.
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23:25:28 <tswett> This means that both return :: a -> ERef a and >>= :: ERef a -> (a -> ERef b) -> ERef b put events on the queue. It's likely that this can be done without side effects.
23:30:45 <tswett> return creates a pretty boring event; this event just immediately returns a value. >>= also creates a boring event; it just waits for a first event to finish, calls a second event with the result, waits for the second event to finish, and returns the result.
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23:58:12 <tswett> Now, suppose I want to create an E object with a single method, which nominally takes a Char and returns an Int. Well, when I do that in E, my method doesn't actually necessarily get a Char; it merely gets a reference to a Char. But it doesn't have to return an Int; it merely has to return a reference to an Int.
23:58:59 <tswett> So if I have a function "ERef a -> ERef b", I ought to be able to create one of those E objects with a single method. Let's call it an EFunc, how about. So the function is (ERef a -> ERef b) -> EFunc a b.
00:00:47 <tswett> Then the type of the "eventual send" function is kinda scary: ERef (EFunc a b) -> ERef a -> (ERef (EFunc a b), ERef b)
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00:01:12 <tswett> Given a reference to a function and a reference to an argument, I can send the argument to the function. The result is a reference to the result, as well as a new reference to the function.
00:02:09 <tswett> If you send a message X to Alice and get a new reference Alice', then the reference Alice' has the property that any message sent to it is guaranteed not to arrive before X does.
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00:13:34 <oerjan> tswett: aren't you assuming Alice is actually using X there.
00:13:52 <tswett> oerjan: I'm not sure what you mean by "actually using".
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00:14:37 <oerjan> i mean, if Alice just discards X and gives you a reference back that does not use it. like haskell laziness.
00:15:51 <tswett> What Alice does with X has nothing to do with the "ERef (EFunc a b)" that you get back; that reference has the same behavior regardless of what Alice does.
00:16:15 <tswett> The "ERef b" can refer to whatever Alice wants it to refer to.
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00:17:26 <Taneb> Writing agda via ssh on my tablet is not particularly fun
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00:21:02 <tswett> All right, so this is four ways of getting a reference, right? You can create a reference to an object; you can use >>= to call a function on a reference, giving you a new reference; and you can eventual-send to an object, giving you both a new reference to the object, and a reference to the result of the send.
00:24:44 <tswett> Then an important question is, when does an ERef a become "resolved", and what do we care...
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00:50:11 <tswett> All right, I guess the main operator is "send an argument reference to a target reference, yielding a result reference and a new version of the target reference". On the other side, an object is defined by one or more functions which take the state of the object and an argument reference, and return a result reference.
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00:58:57 <tswett> This is all made a bit difficult by the fact that Haskell's type system isn't really set up for object-oriented programming.
01:03:36 <Bike> hey nerds, anyone know what iommu does, i have a mystery on my hands
01:04:10 <pikhq> Sure. It's like paging, but on DMA.
01:04:42 <Bike> now riddle me this, why do i have to have it enabled for my NIC to function?
01:05:21 <pikhq> Hard telling. There's many possibilities.
01:05:42 <pikhq> Maybe your NIC can only handle 32-bit addresses, and it needs to access a buffer that the kernel's shoved above that space.
01:05:47 <Bike> i ask because i've been fucking with drivers on a decapitated system all day only to find that i needed some fucking bios option
01:06:28 <Bike> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1294989 behold my salvation.
01:06:42 <Bike> jesus has returned, as a forum thread, to save me
01:08:19 <pikhq> Could also be the case that the device can only deal with a single large buffer, and the kernel hands the device that by using the IOMMU.
01:08:28 <pikhq> I dunno, it depends on implementation details a lot.
01:08:43 <kmc> it seems unlikely someone would design a card like that, because IOMMU is pretty recent?
01:08:47 <kmc> I don't really know though
01:08:54 <kmc> wonder if Fiora knows
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01:09:29 <Bike> the motherboard is fairly new, not sure about the nic
01:09:37 <kmc> i guess if the nic is part of the mobo they can assume you have it
01:09:42 <Bike> i think it might be some kind of weird driver quirk. i pretty much hate all network drivers at this point
01:09:47 <Bike> the nic is in the mobo, yeah
01:09:50 <pikhq> The NIC's a few years old, but probably newer than IOMMU.
01:09:54 <Bike> very nearly bought a pci one...
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01:10:11 <pikhq> I know it's a few years old because my *last* computer had that exact kind.
01:10:15 <pikhq> It also had an IOMMU.
01:10:36 <Bike> i'm guessing you didn't need to enable it for network.
01:10:59 <pikhq> I don't know, it was on by default in the BIOS.
01:11:19 <Bike> this is why i need to get with fucking w/ my fpga's ethernet. write some drivers. make some spite
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01:15:09 <Bike> note that when i say the ethernet didn't work, i mean that everything reported that the interface was fine, but i'd time out with dhcp or any kind of router communication.
01:17:35 <kmc> http://tastetheburritobox.com/
01:21:06 <Bike> i'm naming this computer syadavaktavyah in honor of me not knowing what the fuck
01:24:48 <oerjan> Bike: jain't nothing wrong with your computer
01:25:46 <tswett> don't they have thsoe in japan
01:26:07 <oerjan> i thought they were more an indian thing
01:26:24 <oerjan> or are you referring to the burrito boxes.
01:26:40 <tswett> The burrito boxes, yeah.
01:26:47 <kmc> all of the vending machines I saw in Japan were pretty low tech and boring
01:26:49 <kmc> I was disappointed
01:27:22 <kmc> probably there's some enormous vending machine district in Tōkyō that I should have visited
01:27:24 <oerjan> kmc: all the advanced ones start making things almost, but not quite unlike tea and have to commit seppuku.
01:27:44 <kmc> there were claw machines that dispensed large sausages
01:27:56 <kmc> and capsule machines with used panties
01:28:05 <kmc> but neither of those is that interesting from a technological perspective
01:29:18 <oerjan> kmc: just reverse those hth
01:29:30 <kmc> large panties and used sausages?
01:29:47 <tswett> kmc: what about the pizza vending machines?
01:29:49 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:29:52 <kmc> haven't seen
01:30:28 <kmc> syadavaktavyahth
01:30:39 -!- Bike has joined.
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01:57:25 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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02:28:53 <Bike> have now moved on to uefi problems, i'm hitting some kind of cosmic checklist
02:29:22 <kmc> circles of hell
02:29:44 <Bike> unaligned pointer 022
02:30:14 <Bike> also my mobo has a shitty implementation of AMD-Vi apparently, whatever that means!
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02:35:26 <tswett> I'm trying to think of geometric concepts that can be defined only in terms of points and lines, without talking about distance at all.
02:35:32 <tswett> As far as I can tell, there pretty much aren't any.
02:36:13 <tswett> Like, you can define collinearity. That's pretty much it.
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02:36:44 <tswett> Circle? Nope. Triangle? Not without defining line segments, nope.
02:37:17 <oerjan> the dual of collinearity is three lines intersecting in a point hth
02:37:21 <Bike> why are you trying to think of that
02:37:42 <tswett> Bike: because the Faro plane.
02:37:55 <tswett> What's the dual of an angle?
02:38:44 <tswett> I guess it's three lines, one of them distinguished.
02:38:51 <oerjan> tswett: note that you cannot define anything that isn't preserved under linear maps and projections.
02:38:58 <oerjan> which excludes angles.
02:39:10 <tswett> Right, I guess that's obvious in retrospect.
02:39:24 <tswett> You can define parallelity. But in the Faro plane, no lines are parallel.
02:40:11 <oerjan> you can fix one line as infinite and define parallel as "intersect on the infinite line"
02:40:34 <tswett> Yeah, but then you pretty much just get the boring four-point plane.
02:40:39 <tswett> Where "line" means "set of two points".
02:41:17 <tswett> If you take the Faro plane and denote one line as the line at infinity, and then you remove that line, you're left with four points.
02:41:19 <oerjan> i'm just defining the usual translation from euclidean plane to projective plane here, really.
02:41:30 <tswett> A four-point plane, in fact. Where the lines are precisely the sets containing two points.
02:41:59 <tswett> No three points are collinear, because no line contains three points.
02:42:17 <oerjan> maybe you can define conic sections
02:42:41 <oerjan> probably gets something trivial in the faro plane, though.
02:43:40 <oerjan> but it's not really the fault of the concepts that the faro plane is too small to fit enough distinct examples of them to be interesting.
02:45:20 <oerjan> there are numerical expressions that are preserved under projective transformations although i cannot remember their names.
02:46:58 <oerjan> you just need four points in the usual projective plane to fix any transformation, i think.
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02:51:47 <tswett> Oh yeah, conic sections.
02:52:00 <tswett> Maybe in the Faro plane, "conic section" just means something like "set of five points".
03:00:30 <tswett> Also may be the word for "lighthouse" in some languages.
03:02:04 <Bike> arch doesn't have sudo by default. feelin pretty ascetic here
03:02:08 <Bike> took me two minutes to remember that word
03:02:42 <kmc> debian doesn't either
03:02:48 <kmc> if you do the barebones whatever install
03:03:13 <Bike> i also forgot to put wheel in sudoers so an incident was reported
03:03:33 <kmc> sudo is pretty fucked anyway
03:03:40 <Bike> does it not report anything by default? i even checked /var/spool/mail which i have never used in my life
03:03:42 <kmc> for your typical linux desktop
03:03:58 <Bike> well i don't want to just log in as root...
03:04:08 <kmc> it has all this complexity for delegating power to run individual commands, none of which is useful to typical desktop user
03:04:28 <kmc> and the password prompt is little more than a molly-guard, for a typical desktop install
03:04:31 <kmc> it provides no real security
03:04:41 <kmc> I think there are simpler sudo-replacements which take these facts into account
03:04:57 <kmc> nope, haven't used them :/
03:05:03 <Bike> also i am probably going to set up an sshd on this thing and use it as a bouncer so as to stop annoying you
03:06:27 <oerjan> tswett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_of_Alexandria
03:07:02 <Bike> it's kind of amusing how incredibly fucked i was without any internet
03:12:09 <quintopia> kmc: what do you mean about the password providing no security? would my set up which requires a fresh password entry for every sudo be considered "atypical"
03:13:11 <olsner> I think the typical setup has a 5 minute timeout until you have to re-enter the password
03:13:32 <kmc> you're probably running sudo within a shell and xterm and x session which are controlled by your user account
03:14:36 <kmc> so if your account gets compromised the attacker can easily compromise one of those and get your password the next time you run sudo
03:14:46 <tswett> You're pretty much undoubtedly running it within a shell controlled by your user account.
03:15:06 <kmc> there's also the part where most of the stuff you'd care about an attacker doing/having is in your user account, anyway
03:15:21 <tswett> Since why would you be running it in someone else's shell.
03:19:18 <Bike> yeah, i'm not too worried about getting haxxed really
03:19:36 <Bike> maybe we can have a new age of viruses, spreading on dumbass linuxers like me
03:19:56 <tswett> My laptop is set to allow anyone to SSH to it as root with no password.
03:20:11 <Bike> also i hate minimalism
03:20:17 <Bike> that's not related i just do
03:20:29 <zzo38> tswett: Why? If it has no internet connection then it might not be as much of a problem, but still it doesn't seem so sensible
03:20:34 <kmc> what about it Bike
03:20:56 <Bike> annoyed at people trying to find the once and for all really real perfect minimal computer
03:21:01 <tswett> It's behind a NAT all the time, except when I'm at school. Then it has a public IP address.
03:21:24 <tswett> I look in the authorization logs, and apparently lots of people log into it.
03:21:29 <tswett> I assume they're installing all sorts of malware.
03:22:02 <tswett> I mean, I know that *some* of them are, because every time I log into an account with my laptop, it gets compromised within a couple of days.
03:22:29 <tswett> And my web browser is almost unusable because literally more than three quarters of the window are taken up by toolbars.
03:22:39 <Bike> how joking are you exactly
03:22:47 <zzo38> Bike: Well, I too try to find good instructions sets that I can try to build a good computer. My criterias are to have open source program to implement it in hardware (without vendor lock or patent issues), to be simple, to support 32-bits address, to be supported target by GCC or LLVM, and it can be changed to have different features which I might want.
03:23:04 <zzo38> tswett: Then turn off all of the toolbars.
03:23:32 <olsner> tswett: and here I thought you had found the ultimate "zen" approach to computer security
03:23:43 <Bike> zzo38: well "simple" doesn't mean much of anything, basically.
03:23:56 <tswett> zzo38: whenever I turn off a toolbar, the browser crashes.
03:24:11 <Bike> i cannibalized some old computers, i should set up honeypot puters
03:24:29 <Bike> attacker gains access, realizes that the machine is from 1992, gives up in disgust
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03:24:32 <Bike> ultimate security
03:24:38 <zzo38> tswett: Then make a backup of non-binary files and then erase everything and reinstall everything, and then hopefully it will work
03:24:57 <zzo38> Bike: I doubt it; someone might be interested nevertheless
03:25:01 <quintopia> zzo38: also he's lying about the toolbars
03:25:04 <tswett> You know how sourdough contains a specific mixture of microorganisms that result in it being completely safe to eat, and if you were to remove the wrong ones, you'd end up with some weird random mixture of bacteria that'd probably kill you?
03:25:25 <zzo38> I don't know about sourdough much
03:25:26 <Bike> oh yeah, well how many 1992 computers used to turn on my lights have you compromised, huh
03:25:40 <kmc> tswett: i don't think that's true
03:25:42 <kmc> about sourdough
03:25:53 <kmc> douglass_ would know for sure
03:26:02 <tswett> zzo38: I've tried that, but all the non-binary files I try to copy off the computer automatically get machine translated into Portuguese for some reason.
03:26:17 <zzo38> Bike: Me? I expect, none. But I never tried, and don't intend to, so it doesn't matter.
03:26:25 <kmc> salt-rising bread, on the other hand, is made using the bacterium which causes gas gangrene
03:26:32 <kmc> so don't cut yourself while kneading it
03:26:37 <Bike> you /expect/ none?
03:26:41 <Bike> do you sleep-hack
03:27:19 <zzo38> Bike: No, but I may have inadvertently done something.
03:27:51 <Bike> inadveertantly hacked my doorputer? what's wrong with you man
03:27:59 <zzo38> (Well, I suppose maybe I do sleep-hack, but not in the sense you probably mean)
03:27:59 <tswett> And whenever I try to copy a binary file off the computer, I end up with a file that just says "ÿþ" followed by a line break, in UTF-8.
03:28:19 <quintopia> zzo38: you dreams about hacking eh
03:28:35 <zzo38> quintopia: That isn't what I mean either actually
03:28:55 <quintopia> zzo38: you intentionally screw with your sleep schedule?
03:29:13 <tswett> And the mode ends up getting set to 7412.
03:29:27 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, I do do that, but I don't know if that is what I mean or not; that is why I wrote "maybe".
03:29:54 <Bike> this cpu is ten years old, sweeeeet
03:29:57 <quintopia> zzo38: must be hard not to know what you mean
03:30:16 <zzo38> quintopia: That's what *you* think.
03:32:01 <zzo38> I have looked at a few instruction sets such as ARM2 and MMIX, both of which are supported in GCC but not in LLVM.
03:32:57 <zzo38> Is it possible to use GCC as a LLVM-backend?
03:36:54 <oerjan> `run echo ÿþ | iconv -t latin1
03:37:05 <oerjan> that didn't work much.
03:37:06 <Bike> makes you think.
03:37:30 <oerjan> or maybe it did and it just isn't actual utf8
03:37:37 <kmc> `from-8bit ÿþ
03:37:40 <HackEgo> iconv: incomplete character or shift sequence at end of buffer
03:37:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ \ enc=$(echo "$1" | iconv -t iso8859-1 | chardet | awk '{print $2}') \ echo "$1" | iconv -t iso8859-1 | iconv -f "$enc"
03:38:52 <tswett> `run echo ÿþ | iconv -f utf8 -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le -t utf 8 | unidecode
03:38:54 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion to `utf' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
03:38:56 <zzo38> I have also written a program "utftovlq" which is a C program capable to do many of those things too, such as convert UTF-8 to ISO-8859-1, or other things
03:39:11 <kmc> ISO 1337:1980 Wrought coppers (having minimum copper contents of 99,85 %) -- Chemical composition and forms of wrought products
03:39:13 <zzo38> If such program is loaded you can see if it work or not
03:39:27 <tswett> Someone say what I just said, but such that it works.
03:39:44 <kmc> ISO 420:1994. Photography -- Processing chemicals
03:40:06 <Bike> gettin high on... i don't know what chemicals you use in darkrooms
03:40:07 <HackEgo> 437// \ 500// \ 500V1// \ 850// \ 851// \ 852// \ 855// \ 856// \ 857// \ 860// \ 861// \ 862// \ 863// \ 864// \ 865// \ 866// \ 866NAV// \ 869// \ 874// \ 904// \ 1026// \ 1046// \ 1047// \ 8859_1// \ 8859_2// \ 8859_3// \ 8859_4// \ 8859_5// \ 8859_6// \ 8859_7// \ 8859_8// \ 8859_9// \ 10646-1:1993// \ 10646-1:1993/UCS4/ \ ANSI_X3.4-1968// \ AN
03:40:16 <kmc> Bike: the bad chemicals
03:40:20 <tswett> What's that command to pastebin something?
03:40:39 <oerjan> `run echo ÿþ | iconv -f utf8 -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le -t utf8 | unidecode
03:40:41 <HackEgo> iconv: incomplete character or shift sequence at end of buffer
03:40:46 <Bike> 'bad chemicals' means 'good shit' right
03:40:59 <kmc> -f utf8 -t utf8 should be the default
03:41:38 <zzo38> How do you load C program into HackEgo anyways?
03:41:49 <kmc> `run echo -n ÿþ | iconv -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le | unidecode
03:41:59 <kmc> `run echo -n ÿþ | iconv -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le | hd
03:42:00 <HackEgo> 00000000 ef bb bf |...| \ 00000003
03:42:00 <zzo38> kmc: No, the default should depend on the current locale setting, isn't it?
03:42:10 <kmc> zzo38: in HackEgo i meant
03:42:14 <Bike> unidecode doesn't take stdin i thought
03:42:15 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
03:42:22 <HackEgo> [U+00E4 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS]
03:42:23 <zzo38> (If the locale setting is UTF-8, then yes it should be UTF-8, clearly)
03:42:33 <Bike> `run echo ä > unidecode -
03:42:33 <kmc> en_NZ really
03:42:44 <tswett> `run unidecode $(echo -n ÿþ | iconv -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le)
03:42:46 <HackEgo> [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE]
03:42:48 <zzo38> How to load C program into HakEgo?
03:43:06 <Bike> fetch the source and compile it? fetch a binary?
03:43:52 <zzo38> I have the source, I don't have binary for this computer though; how do I load a file on?
03:44:00 <HackEgo> wget: missing URL \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
03:44:32 <HackEgo> http://: Invalid host name.
03:44:43 <tswett> `wget http://lpaste.net/raw/98076
03:44:59 <zzo38> You should specify output filename too
03:45:07 <zzo38> (I think it is -O for wget)
03:45:14 <HackEgo> --2014-01-07 03:44:44-- http://lpaste.net/raw/98076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2014-01-07 03:44:45-- (try: 2) http://lpaste.net/raw/98076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connecte
03:45:22 <tswett> `wget http://lpaste.net/raw/98076 -o 98076
03:45:32 <tswett> Right, right, the DNS thing.
03:45:33 <Bike> i think there's a whitelist
03:45:51 <Bike> oerjan: lol oops.
03:45:53 <HackEgo> --2014-01-07 03:45:23-- http://lpaste.net/raw/98076%20-o%2098076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2014-01-07 03:45:24-- (try: 2) http://lpaste.net/raw/98076%20-o%2098076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to conne
03:46:04 <tswett> `wget http://176.9.42.8/raw/98076 -o 98076
03:46:16 <Bike> `fetch http://lpaste.net/raw/98076
03:47:07 <HackEgo> --2014-01-07 03:46:36-- http://176.9.42.8/raw/98076%20-o%2098076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2014-01-07 03:46:37-- (try: 2) http://176.9.42.8/raw/98076%20-o%2098076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to conne
03:47:09 <HackEgo> 2014-01-07 03:47:08 URL:http://lpaste.net/raw/98076 [373] -> "98076" [1]
03:47:31 <tswett> Huh, someone got 98076 somehow.
03:47:55 <tswett> `run cat $(which fetch)
03:48:06 <Bike> i think it's builtin
03:48:11 <tswett> Bike: you did it, Bike. You made it happen.
03:48:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
03:48:24 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: fetch: not found
03:48:27 <oerjan> tswett: `fetch is outside the sandbox.
03:50:40 <HackEgo> [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R]
03:51:15 <tswett> `run mv $(which unidecode) unidecode- && rm $(which unidecode)
03:51:19 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
03:51:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unidecode: not found
03:51:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
03:52:09 <HackEgo> [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B] [U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A] [U+0048 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H]
03:52:12 <tswett> Whither does `revert revert?
03:52:40 <oerjan> to the previous version hth
03:53:03 <kmc> `unidecode ꙮ
03:53:05 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
03:54:12 <zzo38> `fetch http://sprunge.us/UNPA
03:54:14 <HackEgo> 2014-01-07 03:54:13 URL:http://sprunge.us/UNPA [9462] -> "UNPA" [1]
03:54:28 <olsner> "#esꙮteric :Illegal channel name" :(
03:54:50 <HackEgo> [U+2592 MEDIUM SHADE] [U+2592 MEDIUM SHADE]
03:54:55 <HackEgo> UNPA: ASCII C program text
03:54:58 <zzo38> `run gcc -s -O2 -o bin/utftovlq UNPA
03:54:59 <HackEgo> UNPA: file not recognized: File format not recognized \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
03:55:18 <zzo38> `run gcc -s -O2 -o bin/utftovlq -x c UNPA
03:55:36 <olsner> hmm, what does -s do again?
03:55:40 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
03:55:51 <tswett> HackEgo: quit trying to read /proc/mount hth
03:55:58 <zzo38> Bike: It doesn't work like that. Download it into your own computer for documentation
03:56:02 <Bike> `run echo foo | utftovlq
03:57:13 <zzo38> The parameter needs to be one character input type, one character output type, for example "utftovlq 81" is converting plain 8-bit data into UTF-8.
03:57:29 <zzo38> (This plain data is considered as ISO-8859-1, for purpose of Unicode encoding)
03:57:32 <kmc> how is it better than iconv
03:58:08 <Bike> `utftovlq 81 UNPA
03:58:23 <tswett> find / | xargs -n 2 mv
03:59:01 <Bike> you know what's cool? error messages are cool
03:59:22 <zzo38> kmc: It can do various other things too, such as convert endianness of files, convert overlong encodings, and support up to 64-bit numbers
03:59:25 <kmc> `run LC_ALL=de_DE.UTF-8 errno -l
03:59:26 <HackEgo> bash: errno: command not found
03:59:56 <kmc> `quote de_DE.UTF-8
03:59:58 <HackEgo> 925) <kmc> shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l <kmc> Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer <kmc> Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler <kmc> "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs" i think that was in the Ring Cycle
04:00:15 <tswett> `run LC_ALL=de_DE.UTF-8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:00:16 <HackEgo> rm: Entfernen von „all-cats-are-cats“ nicht möglich: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
04:01:13 <tswett> `run echo /hackenv/bin/past*
04:01:14 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/pastalog /hackenv/bin/pastaquote /hackenv/bin/paste /hackenv/bin/pastefortunes /hackenv/bin/pastekarma /hackenv/bin/pastelog /hackenv/bin/pastelogs /hackenv/bin/pastenquotes /hackenv/bin/pastequotes /hackenv/bin/pastewisdom /hackenv/bin/pastlog
04:01:18 <oerjan> Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs, Brünhilde
04:01:21 <Bike> `run LC_ALL=so_ET.UTF-8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:01:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `all-cats-are-cats': No such file or directory
04:01:28 <Bike> locale game weak
04:01:34 <tswett> `run locale -a | paste
04:01:36 <zzo38> All the convert type are: 8=8-bit, w=16-bit LE, W=16-bit BE, d=32-bit LE, D=32-bit BE, q=64-bit LE, Q=64-bit BE, 1=UTF-8, 0=Modified UTF-8, V=VLQ, v=LEB-128, u=UTF-16 LE, U=UTF-16 BE, T=translation, M=Messagepack (input only), 4=Hex. There is also other options: L=linefeed, c=carriage-return, b=BOM in, B=BOM out, t=Make translation file small-endian.
04:01:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1702
04:01:54 <zzo38> For "translation", a translation table must be given as a second argument.
04:02:00 <tswett> `run LC_ALL=ar_JO.utf8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:02:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `all-cats-are-cats': No such file or directory
04:02:09 <Bike> `run LC_ALL=so_ET.utf8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:02:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `all-cats-are-cats': No such file or directory
04:02:14 <Bike> i don't get it.
04:02:23 <tswett> `run LC_ALL=zh_CN.utf8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:02:25 <HackEgo> rm: 无法删除"all-cats-are-cats": 没有那个文件或目录
04:02:33 <tswett> Presumably rm doesn't know so_ET.
04:03:32 <tswett> `run LC_ALL=ja_JP.utf8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:03:34 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `all-cats-are-cats': そのようなファイルやディレクトリはありません
04:03:52 <Bike> well, the other way around, i think.
04:05:01 <tswett> "Sono yōna fairu ya direkutori wa arimasen"
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04:17:18 <pikhq> tswett: "you na", not "youna".
04:18:18 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `foobar': No such file or directory
04:18:36 <lifthrasiir> I really wanted to see the Unicode mumbo-jumbo
04:21:52 <tswett> pikhq: well, I was copying and pasting from Gūguru ga hon'yaku.
04:22:50 <HackEgo> [U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM] [U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM] [U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM] [U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALE
04:22:58 <pikhq> Ah, "Google Translates".
04:23:11 <tswett> Yes, Google Translates.
04:24:06 <zzo38> The example of my program would be, for example converting UTF-8 to CESU-8 will be "utftovlq 1u | utftovlq w0"
04:25:52 <tswett> Hum. GT translates "テゥランスレーテゥ" as "Thuringer Lance de Lethe".
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04:29:59 <Bike> http://sicb.org/meetings/2014/schedule/abstractdetails.php?id=1217 cameron, j
04:30:20 <tswett> アッパレンtlyティシsウァチョウゲtウェニョウジュｓｔｔｙペエンｇィシントティシメ
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04:32:41 <kmc> alle Katzen sind Katzen
04:32:45 <kmc> kaikki kissat ovat kissoja
04:33:19 <kmc> sicb? structure and interpretation of computer brogramming?
04:34:02 <tswett> Todos los gatos son gatos.
04:34:10 <Bike> kmc: i'd buy it
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04:37:37 <tswett> Huh, Google Translate translates "ン" as "Emissions" and "ンン" as "Unless they already exist".
04:38:21 <Bike> "so" and "so-so" also mean different things :p
04:38:48 <kmc> nobody actually speaks japanese it's all an elaborate hoax
04:39:44 <pikhq> tswett: Also, yes, I can read your psuedo-Japanese. :)
04:39:54 <tswett> Bike: yeah, but those say "n" and "n'n".
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04:41:39 <tswett> のぼぢあくつある類スペアクスじゃ派寝せ逸すあるルアンえらぼら手穂悪巣
04:41:53 <tswett> Bike: I'm reasonably sure neither of those is actually a Japanese word.
04:42:05 <Bike> oh well probably
04:43:27 <tswett> If you tell Google Translate to translate from Latin to English, then "Lorem" becomes "Business", "Lorem lorem" becomes "Business on the Internet", "Lorem lorem lorem" becomes "Chinese Internet technology", "Lorem lorem lorem lorem" becomes "Chinese Internet phone technology", and "Lorem lorem lorem lorem lorem" becomes "China China China China China".
04:43:52 <Bike> @google translation party
04:45:13 <pikhq> "nn" is close to a Japanese utterance at least.
04:45:18 <tswett> "Lorem ipsum" becomes "Product". "Lorem ipsum lorem ipsum" becomes "China's". "Lorem ipsum lorem ipsum lorem ipsum" becomes "China's Internet". "Lorem ipsum lorem ipsum lorem ipsum lorem ipsum" becomes "Of course, system design, and system design, and system design,"
04:45:24 <pikhq> Though you would write it "un" instead.
04:46:24 <pikhq> "Lorem ipsum sit dolor amet" becomes "There's a lot of pain"
04:46:49 <zzo38> And you can convert any UTF-8 variant (CESU-8, overlong, normal, etc) into proper UTF-8 by "utftovlq 1u | utftovlq u1"
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04:56:42 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/raw/98081
04:57:20 <tswett> "You can fill out before the arrows to get pregnant."
04:57:48 <tswett> "It's easy , you will feel to the home and the great gods into labor over the mountains, instantly. There is no element of fear of the notebook of life impact."
04:58:40 <tswett> "Welcome to the court of the overall development of the plant."
04:58:47 <tswett> I want there to be a court of the overall development of the plant.
05:01:08 <tswett> "Each warm-up , wise life is loose , or is willing to ferry a lion"
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05:42:35 <kmc> google used to translate "quid pro quo" as "What happens in Vegas"
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06:40:30 <zzo38> Why does it translate everything like that?
06:42:09 <zzo38> I mean "What happens in Vegas" and that stuff
06:42:36 <zzo38> (I don't live at Vegas, so I wouldn't know)
06:43:31 <Bike> Oh. It's a joke. "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" is a common epxression.
06:46:20 <kmc> google translate works by data mining the web, so it can get strange ideas about things
06:46:41 <kmc> for example people use "lorem ipsum" as filler text on lots of different kinds of pages
06:47:07 <zzo38> O, so that's why it doesn't work. (A lot of other things also don't work on Google translation; there are better ones)
06:50:59 <kmc> which are better?
06:51:12 <zzo38> I forget now, but I did see better ones before
06:51:24 <Bike> well i'm convinced
06:51:33 <zzo38> I have also seen worse ones
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07:02:46 <Bike> anyway, all this cra kind of makes me interested in gpu driver stuff... probably i can't do anything good for the projects though :/
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07:12:50 <Sgeo> Medicine One is such an unimaginative name for a chemical that cures a fictitious poison (ATP decoupler)
07:13:34 <Sgeo> the Creatures series
07:13:46 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/ATP_Decoupler
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07:14:37 <Bike> does creatures have proper neurotoins
07:15:32 <Sgeo> There are some chemicals that can cause mental issues if they can be made to stay in the system long enough
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07:16:05 <Sgeo> But the only examples I can think of normally have a very quick half-life in a normal norn's bloodstream
07:16:48 <Sgeo> Punishment and Reward
07:17:04 <Sgeo> I made a norn that had Punishment constantly pumped into it
07:17:20 <Sgeo> It would start doing random things, and eventually refuse to do anything at all
07:21:14 <Bike> zzo38: customer service!
07:21:27 <zzo38> Such command is converting UTF-8 (type "1") to UTF-16 LE (type "u")
07:21:29 <quintopia> i was about to investigate some strange thing sgeo said before i crashed my client
07:21:46 <Bike> he told you that the fictitious poison is from Creatures.
07:22:14 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, there is a source code for it.
07:22:27 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/UNPA
07:22:29 <HackEgo> /* \ UTF-to-VLQ \ Public domain \ */ \ \ #include <stdio.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ \ #ifdef _WIN32 \ #include <fcntl.h> \ #endif \ \ typedef unsigned char byte; \ typedef unsigned long long ULL; \ \ typedef ULL(*in_func_t)(void); \ typedef void(*out_func_t)(ULL); \ \ char in_mode; \ char out_mode; \ int options[128]; \ ULL translation[
07:23:35 <zzo38> `run cat UNPA | egrep '.'\]=write_
07:23:36 <HackEgo> ['8']=write_8bit_raw, \ ['w']=write_16bit_le_raw, \ ['W']=write_16bit_be_raw, \ ['d']=write_32bit_le_raw, \ ['D']=write_32bit_be_raw, \ ['q']=write_64bit_le_raw, \ ['Q']=write_64bit_be_raw, \ ['1']=write_utf8, \ ['0']=write_utf8, \ ['V']=write_vlq8, \ ['v']=write_leb128, \ ['u']=write_utf16_le, \ ['U']=write_utf16_be, \
07:23:54 <zzo38> Well, that's most of them, anyways.
07:24:18 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: what's a difference between 1 and 0?
07:24:18 <zzo38> There is also 'T' for translate (needs a file containing a translation table), and '4' for hex.
07:24:33 <Sgeo> There is a typo in the normal norn genome
07:24:46 <Sgeo> Pain gets converted into hunger for protein backup instead of pain backup
07:25:03 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: The '0' is only different for output; it makes no difference for input. For output, '0' causes a code number zero to be overlong encoded (which some programs require).
07:25:35 <zzo38> (The "write_utf8" function checks if it is invoked with type '0' or '1' in this case)
07:27:01 <zzo38> There are also a few other options dealing with line breaks and byte order marks.
07:32:08 <zzo38> Hopefully this explains it enough? Using pipes, you can do many more things than just what is specified here, though.
07:34:17 <zzo38> Unlike iconv, utftovlq is capable of working on binary files too; it doesn't have to work on text files. Also, it supports VLQ, overlong UTF-8, codepoints up to 64-bits (or 36-bits for UTF-8), etc, but it doesn't have translation tables for various character sets built-in; you need to use external files. Also, utftovlq does not support UTF-7 and that stuff either.
07:35:04 <zzo38> So they are really two different programs for different purposes, although some of the purposes are shared between them.
07:35:36 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: actually, I'm quite confused why 0 and 1 makes differences while the source code seems to be same for both.
07:36:23 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Like I said, the "write_utf8" function checks this; instead of duplicating the function except for the difference, it just has a condition to check this specific case.
07:37:14 <zzo38> (Both types are the same for input, though.)
07:37:16 <lifthrasiir> you'd rather have a simple usage when the program is called without any args... ;)
07:37:34 <zzo38> I could do that, but I didn't put any in (yet).
07:37:53 <zzo38> The program is public domain anyone can make whatever variation of the program you want to.
07:38:02 <lifthrasiir> yeah, and it seems to ignore any UTF-8 errors (including overlong sequences) naturally.
07:38:17 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, that is on purpose.
08:11:52 <zzo38> Is anyone able to help to make 8x8 graphics for some computer game?
08:12:13 <zzo38> There is 32 kind of pieces, 16 for tiles and 16 for sprites.
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08:21:27 <zzo38> But, the software is public domain so other people are allowed to sell it too.
08:22:27 <zzo38> (But, if you want to do that, it is recommended that you will make the box art too. It is not a requirement, however.)
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08:36:20 <mroman_> zzo38: Have you already searched for public domain game graphics?
08:36:45 <zzo38> mroman_: They aren't suitable.
08:40:15 <mroman_> What kind of graphics are you looking for then?
08:41:19 <zzo38> They are specialized for a specific kind of computer game, for one thing; also, the tiles are mono, and sprites are three colors + transparency (the same three for each one, or up to two different palettes for sprites)
08:44:33 <lifthrasiir> I was seriously considering a minimalistic VM suited for 2D (or limited 3D) game programming
08:44:59 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, and I was considering a way to make the program fit in a QR code, too.
08:45:11 <zzo38> (But none of this has to do with the game I am making now)
08:45:22 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: which is for me a non-issue though :)
08:45:32 <lifthrasiir> rather, I seek for simple and relatively performant implementations
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09:31:46 <b_jonas> mauke: I forgot to mention yesterday that the rules for conversion to null pointer are also different in every edition of the standards. just saying.
09:33:11 <mroman_> unsigned overflow in C is defined behaviour, right?
09:33:26 <mroman_> i.e (uint8_t)(255+1) == (uint8_t)0?
09:34:10 <mroman_> I vagely remember an assume wraparound option, but afaik that applies only to signed overflows
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09:57:59 <Taneb> I had a dream where I was watching a Pirates of the Caribbean movie and it opened with Legolas telling the fourth wall how he killed Gilderoy Lockhart to become the new Dread Pirate Roberts
10:01:21 <olsner> actual Legolas, or the guy who plays Legolas?
10:01:30 <Taneb> I think my brain was aiming for Will Turner and missed
10:01:52 <b_jonas> mroman_: unsigned integral types in C and C++ always wrap around as if they used modulo a two power, yes
10:02:11 <Taneb> olsner, the guy Orlando Bloom played in PotC
10:02:34 <b_jonas> mroman_: you can still get an undefined behaviour from them if you shift by too large shift count, or if you divide by zero
10:02:39 <olsner> right, and he's the one who plays legolas
11:01:12 <zzo38> I think in LLVM you can specify whether or not you get undefined behaviour for some arithmetic operations
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13:32:31 <boily> good CYUL morning!
13:32:47 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 13h 25m 53s ago: <boily> norway is warmer this time of the year. <-- incidentally i saw in the newspaper that the night before yesterday was the fourth hottest january night ever measured (by minimum temperature) in trondheim. (it was 5.1 celsius.)
13:32:47 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 13h 24m 25s ago: http://www.adressa.no/vaeret/article8897643.ece
13:34:02 <boily> @tell oerjan the next logical step is to learn Norwegian.
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14:32:16 <HackEgo> atrapado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:43:17 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 9m 14s ago: the next logical step is to learn Norwegian.
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14:50:18 <oerjan> <tswett> "Lorem ipsum" becomes "Product". <-- heh when i think about it it makes complete sense that google translate would go haywire on variations of this phrase.
14:51:08 <oerjan> because it is often used as a temporary replacement for text that hasn't yet been written. so if google finds both the before and after versions...
14:51:29 <oerjan> it would think one is a translation of the other.
14:51:36 <boily> google translate autodetects "lorem ipsum" as latin, then translates it into fr:Chine.
14:52:26 <oerjan> boily: btw case matters in these things.
14:54:07 <oerjan> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet consectetuer adipiscing elit sed diam -> This page is designed to explore a computer program to implement the
14:54:37 <oerjan> i had to remove the commas in it, otherwise it started breaking it up.
14:55:09 <ais523> lorem ipsum is apparently an actual passage of Latin altered to have a frequency distribution of letters/word lengths matching English
14:55:30 <boily> la:Lorem → en:Business, la:lorem → en:Internet, la:Ipsum → en:the, la:ipsum → en:it, la:lorem ipsum → en:China, la:lorem Ipsum → en:Product, la:Lorem ipsum → en:Product, la:Lorem Ipsum → en:NATO.
14:55:32 <ais523> and thus the result makes no sense
14:55:47 <oerjan> ais523: no, i doubt that's what's happening.
14:56:15 <oerjan> ais523: as i understand it, google translate works by finding pages that it thinks are translations of each other, no?
14:56:16 <boily> `run echo 'Business Internet the it China Product Product NATO' >wisdom/'lorem ipsum'
14:56:16 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't mean to suggest it was
14:56:18 <ais523> just bringing up trivia
14:56:34 <ais523> it's clear why Google Translate is so confued
14:57:59 <oerjan> boily: i think the translations of [Ii]psum alone are fairly correct. it's a pronoun after all.
14:58:19 <oerjan> not exact, but something that can often make sense in context.
15:00:41 <boily> Latine loqui coactus sum, non.
15:02:45 <boily> apparently, "coactat" is “confined”.
15:03:02 * boily mapoles his way out of oerjan's confinement
15:03:22 <oerjan> boily: i don't think gt finds the right verb
15:03:48 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coacto is what i was going for
15:03:56 <oerjan> (only guessing it existed.)
15:04:56 <oerjan> where do you find that?
15:05:21 <boily> from your coacto wiktionary page → descendants → french «cacher».
15:05:23 <oerjan> oh the french descendant
15:05:57 <oerjan> this may be a shock to you, but words change meanings.
15:06:50 <oerjan> hm so the computer term "cache" also derives from this.
15:12:44 <boily> also, there aren't any official quotation rules for Latin.
15:14:49 <oerjan> just use the quotative case
15:15:55 <ais523> oerjan: you made that up, right?
15:16:34 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotative
15:17:54 <oerjan> once again, reality trumps fiction.
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15:20:34 <boily> “Do not meddle in the affairs of linguists, for you are instrumental and taste good with oblique mustard.”
15:21:28 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure instrumental is a case, though.
15:22:20 <boily> instrumental is quite common → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_case
15:23:08 <boily> (strangely, wikipedia doesn't mention Japanese's 「で」)
15:23:47 <nooodl> で's more general than the instrumental case
15:24:54 <nooodl> looks like it doesn't list e.g. latin's ablative either, so i guess it's that
15:26:21 <boily> at least, the article refers to the comitative.
15:33:19 <oerjan> <Taneb> I had a dream where I was watching a Pirates of the Caribbean movie and it opened with Legolas telling the fourth wall how he killed Gilderoy Lockhart to become the new Dread Pirate Roberts <-- with his sled, i assume.
15:34:22 <boily> speaking of the Fourth Wall, I made a grave mistake yesterday night. I began reading OOTS.
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15:39:07 <ais523> boily: I used to pay actual money at cybercafés to read OOTS
15:39:19 <ais523> before I had friends with Internet connections I could borrow
15:39:52 <Taneb> Well, this is the first time I've cried at the end of a main-series pokemon game
15:40:01 <ais523> Taneb: X/Y, I take it?
15:40:36 <boily> do you need a membership card to borrow friends?
15:41:06 <quintopia> http://deeperdesign.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/is-iron-man-made-of-lego/
15:41:18 <Taneb> ais523, I specify main-series because I probably cried at Mystery Dungeon Red
15:41:38 <Taneb> Or at least I would if I reached it for the first time as I am now
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15:41:55 <ais523> (I could also guess the gen 4 Pokémon Mystery Dungeon games, but those probably don't count as main series)
15:41:59 <ais523> PMD is better with its stories, really
15:42:50 <boily> quintopia: back in Montréal.
15:42:51 <metasepia> CYUL 071535Z 24015G26KT 4SM -SHSN BKN026 BKN035 M14/M18 A2978 RMK SC6SC1 SLP088
15:43:01 <ais523> also I have 73-second ping for some reason
15:43:13 <metasepia> KATL 071452Z 33014KT 10SM FEW250 M12/M21 A3050 RMK AO2 SLP348 T11171206 51021
15:43:48 <boily> quintopia: bleh :p
15:44:12 <boily> also, what's the proper translation for fr:verglas?
15:44:26 <Taneb> boily, describe verglas?
15:46:30 <boily> Taneb: when temperature goes over 0 °C, it rains or snow melts, then gets back under zero and you get ice everywhere.
15:47:16 <boily> same thing here. «glace noire» is the sneaky ice you get on roads and you can't see until your car's spinning every possible way.
15:47:40 <mroman_> #define __rol__(x) (x << 1u) | (x >> ((sizeof(x) * CHAR_BIT) - 1))
15:47:46 <mroman_> ^- that's probably as good as it can get?
15:47:47 <quintopia> i'm not sure there is a perfect translation
15:48:02 <quintopia> what is the french for frost or hoarfrost?
15:48:20 <boily> frost is «givre». let me check on hoarfrost...
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15:49:47 <boily> hoar frost is «gelée blanche».
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16:05:28 <mauke> #define NULL (sizeof "\??/" / sizeof "?/\?")
16:08:17 <boily> mroman_: what the trigraphing-fungot are you #defining?
16:08:19 <mroman_> I can't do an absolute jump to a 16bit address with an 8bit register and a Code Segment Register
16:08:31 <mroman_> because I can't update the Code Segment Register
16:08:40 <mroman_> and I obviously can't update *before* I take the jump
16:08:47 <mroman_> boily: A generic rotate left.
16:10:38 <boily> couldn't you, I don't know, like, maybe, #define NULL (0)?
16:12:12 <boily> once again foiled by the tab. yes, I meant mauke.
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16:12:22 * boily mapoles mauke “you vile #definer!”
16:14:03 <mroman_> having only two registers sucks .
16:17:01 <oerjan> brave sir fungot ran away
16:22:43 <mroman_> NULL is 0, but not really.
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16:26:50 <boily> fungot: is NULL 0 or not 0?
16:26:50 <fungot> boily: that's some complicated glass code? :p. ugh i need to install slime.
16:26:52 <boily> mroman_: so, what is it, then?
16:28:18 <fizzie> It's an "implementation-defined null pointer constant" hth
16:28:43 <boily> ... NULL is null. tdnh.
16:29:09 <int-e> #define (funny_type *) 0
16:29:17 <fizzie> Does it help if I add that a null pointer constant is an integer constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression cast to type void *.
16:29:17 <int-e> arg. #define NULL etc.
16:31:04 <fizzie> Or a zero cast to a void *.
16:31:14 <fizzie> If it's the latter, "int i = NULL" is not guaranteed to give you a zero in i.
16:31:43 <boily> oh. I think I now understand the nuance.
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16:32:05 <fizzie> And if it's the former, then printf("%p", NULL); might be undefined.
16:32:06 <boily> but then, you still can #define NULL (0) and get a non-zero (void *), can you?
16:32:44 <fizzie> If you mean a "not-all-bits-zero (void *)", sure.
16:33:00 <fizzie> It will compare equal to zero if it's a null pointer, of course.
16:33:18 <boily> I retract my understanding.
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16:40:38 <mroman_> printf("%p", NULL) should be undefined, yes
16:40:48 <fizzie> Depending on the implementation, it's not required to be undefined, though.
16:41:14 <mroman_> But afaik 0 is a "pointer" literal only at compile time
16:41:26 <mroman_> it's actual value at runtime is something else
16:42:43 <mauke> 0 isn't an actual value; it's source code
16:49:27 <mrhmouse> fizzie: isn't that the idea of "undefined"?
16:49:57 <fizzie> mrhmouse: There's quite a difference between implementation-defined and undefined.
16:50:39 <fizzie> In printf("%p", NULL), depending on the implementation-defined choice of how to define NULL, the behaviour is either defined or undefined.
16:51:10 <mrhmouse> it isn't undefined by specification?
16:51:48 <int-e> printf("%p",0) is undefined; printf("%p",(void *)0) is defined.
16:52:36 <mrhmouse> is NULL in the C specification, or is it just something that some implementations choose to add?
16:52:37 <fizzie> And the choice of NULL is implementation-defined, which means the implementation must document its choice.
16:52:53 <fizzie> It's in the specification.
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16:52:54 <int-e> NULL is in the C standard.
16:53:22 <fizzie> "Common definitions <stddef.h> -- The macros are NULL which expands to an implementation-defined null pointer constant; and --"
16:53:40 <mrhmouse> ah, but it isn't defined in the specification. excuse my ignorance, it's early yet :)
16:54:38 <int-e> When you get down to the details, C is not a very sane programming language.
16:55:07 <fizzie> "implementation-defined behavior: unspecified behavior where each implementation documents how the choice is made" "unspecified behavior: -- behavior where this International Standard provides two or more possibilities and imposes no further requirements on which is chosen in any instance" "undefined behavior: behavior -- for which this International Standard imposes no requirements"
16:55:57 <mrhmouse> fizzie: thank you :) that's a bit clearer
16:56:19 <int-e> printf("%p",0) *is* allowed to obtain your GPS coordinates and send a missile your way.
16:56:34 <mrhmouse> LinearInterpol: sane, or allowed to send missiles?
16:56:55 <LinearInterpol> been looking into it lately. for a systems programming language, it boasts some crazy shit.
16:57:17 <mrhmouse> I only briefly looked at Rust before being distracted by D
16:57:37 <LinearInterpol> DMD uses an outdated object format, that's enough to make me not use it.
16:57:59 <mrhmouse> (I don't use D, I just tried it out for a bit)
16:58:41 <mauke> OMF is short for OMFG
17:00:57 <mrhmouse> Ah. Hrm. I don't know enough about OMF to know what is so bad about it :P
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17:01:26 <mrhmouse> Nor do I care strongly about D.. But I am interested now, since it's apparently terrible :P
17:02:52 <int-e> LinearInterpol: You'd be surprised by how many people still fuck to this very day.
17:03:47 <mrhmouse> I'm too lazy for optional garbage collection.
17:04:03 <mrhmouse> But Rust's pointer are glorious.
17:05:38 <mrhmouse> The macros also interest me. That's about as much as I remember about Rusy
17:06:03 <LinearInterpol> a much, much better alternative than C's preprocessor macros.
17:06:08 <mrhmouse> Agreed. I prefer Scheme macros to Lisp macros, though.
17:06:45 <mrhmouse> My thoughts exactly, That's what got me using Scheme in the first place.
17:07:12 <mrhmouse> I'm using Chicken at the moment, simply because it's the one I learned with.
17:07:41 <mrhmouse> LinearInterpol: http://docs.racket-lang.org/unstable/2d.html
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17:22:26 <Taneb> I am trying to learn Rust
17:22:30 <Taneb> I am not very good at it
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18:47:57 <kmc> LinearInterpol: the @-boxes in Rust aren't actually garbage collected, yet
18:48:01 <kmc> they are just reference-counted
18:48:37 <kmc> in the future it's likely that Gc<T>, Rc<T>, and Arc<T> will coexist in the language (the latter is "atomic reference counting" that can be shared between threads)
18:48:42 <kmc> and there are mutable versions of each, too
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18:49:03 <kmc> any box with automatic memory management is an ownership root and so determines the mutability of its contents
18:50:08 <kmc> they would come in handy for some things I'm doing, for sure
18:50:29 <kmc> like making a generic linked list which can hold trait objects without an additional indirection
18:51:18 <kmc> it sounds like owned vectors and slices won't be subsumed by DSTs though... that is ~[T] and &[T] will still be special even if [T] is now a valid type
18:51:27 <kmc> i haven't been following the details that closely
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18:57:10 <mrhmouse> Do we have any Lispbots in the channel?
18:57:22 <kmc> fizzie: what other systems have undefined behavior, besides C?
18:57:27 <Bike> what's a lisbot
18:57:36 <kmc> C++, LLVM, electronic components
18:57:50 <mrhmouse> Bike: a bot that exthecutes Lipth code
18:58:24 <Bike> the worst joke
18:58:30 <kmc> mostly CPU architectures don't, modulo errata
18:58:54 <kmc> there are those undocumented instructions on the NMOS 6502
18:59:07 <Bike> that's not defined to be undefined, though :p
18:59:16 <boily> Bike: a lisbot is also the main protagonist of a Scandinavian book series. hth.
18:59:20 <kmc> maybe it is now!!
18:59:31 <Bike> also i'm going to try playing portal on my linux computer
18:59:35 <Bike> this gonna be good
18:59:36 <mrhmouse> boily: I finally learned what hth stands for.
18:59:48 <kmc> I suppose POSIX has undefined behavior
19:00:24 <kmc> man I need to publish that blog post before somebody scoops my trick of using read() into .text to do self modifying code
19:00:41 <Bike> because really, who doesn't want to do that.
19:01:18 -!- metasepia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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19:01:34 <kmc> i noticed that the LED lights in my living room will glitch when somebody's using the electric stove lighter in the kitchen
19:03:35 <int-e> not fair. "An ActionScript error has occurred: TypeError: Error #1009: Cannot access a property or method of a null object reference. at BotaniculaLinux/invokeHandler()"
19:03:50 <kmc> goddamn types
19:04:31 <Bike> is that a null pointer error? i think it is
19:06:12 <boily> kmc: what is an electric stove lighter?
19:06:17 -!- myndzi has joined.
19:06:31 <kmc> er, yeah, I guess that's a bit ambiguous
19:07:06 <kmc> the stove is gas-powered but there's a circuit which makes a spark near each burner to light them
19:07:12 <Bike> " Female presenters at scientific mtgs increase 72%, when even one convener is a woman" wow
19:08:19 <Bike> oh it's a typo for convener, lol.
19:08:37 <kmc> looks like the same word to me, but anyway ,what does it meen?
19:09:01 <Bike> person convening the meeting
19:09:32 <Bike> oh, i thought it says 'covener' but it doens't. go me
19:10:14 <Bike> (http://mbio.asm.org/content/5/1/e00846-13.full)
19:11:26 <kmc> http://www.dailydot.com/politics/mpaa-joins-world-wide-web-consortium-w3c/
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19:22:35 <int-e> ... interesting. it starts up on my netbook.
19:22:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:24:59 <int-e> it also starts inside vnc, wtf.
19:50:22 <ais523> before I rebooted, shortcut keys were working, but I couldn't enter text
19:50:53 <ais523> like, the part of the system that translated keypresses to Unicode was broken, but the keyboard driver itself was fine
19:52:24 <olsner> you seem to have a special ability with keyboard problems
19:53:01 <ais523> that was system-wide, though
19:53:09 <ais523> oh, gksudo and Unity could still understand me typing
19:53:13 <ais523> presumably because they capture the keyboard
19:57:58 <boily> I wonder who of ais523 or zzo38 has the weirdest setup...
20:00:49 <boily> OpenERP lesson of the day: it's not because something is called sequence that it is a sequence, or it is called sequence. it is priority, when not being a sequence called sequence.
20:04:40 <kmc> boily: what are you using OpenERP for
20:07:29 <kmc> erp erp erp
20:10:18 * boily records kmc's call on a cassette recorder
20:12:54 <int-e> com'ere birdie birdie poot poot! ?!
20:13:28 <ion> wat http://youtu.be/aeaPanpU-iw
20:28:45 <int-e> Yay, botanicula works properly now. I had managed to disable the RANDR X11 extension.
20:29:50 <int-e> (Which is odd; the extensions that I tried to disable was XINERAMA. Oh well, the mysteries of bad software.)
20:30:44 <int-e> it's probably AMD's fault somehow :)
20:40:44 <fizzie> RANDR exports the multi-screen geometry via the Xinerama protocol, so it's not like those are completely separate things.
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21:20:16 <boily> fizzie: it's still AMD's fault.
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21:23:41 <metasepia> CYUL 072100Z 23024G38KT 15SM SCT080 SCT130 BKN240 M14/M23 A2982 RMK AC3AC1CI3 SLP103
21:23:47 <boily> bleh. still windy.
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21:39:37 <fizzie> The weather people are saying that winter will come here on Friday.
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22:07:51 <mauke> http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/post/71646704753
22:19:04 <mrhmouse> this one is still my favorite: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/post/71300641964/the-truth-of-the-matter-is-that-in-a-language
22:21:38 <Slereah> "And the God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to go forth, this is the normal state of affairs in conventional compiler-based language systems such as C."
22:21:46 <Slereah> Oh why hast thou forsaken me god!
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22:22:22 <kmc> somebody should do this for KJV and ISO 9899
22:22:47 <Slereah> The Quran and Gravitation by Misner Wheeler and Thorpe
22:22:56 <Slereah> The Book of the Dead and the Origin of Species
22:23:24 * oerjan recalls Gravitation as that book with the suspiciously self-describing name
22:23:26 <kmc> whenever I saw that (impressively thick) _Gravitation_ book in the campus bookstore I would pick it up and drop it a few feet
22:23:41 <Slereah> Gravitation is pretty thick
22:23:48 <Slereah> Though not the thickest science book around
22:23:50 <kmc> fucking gravity, how does it work?
22:23:54 <kmc> turns out nobody's quite sure
22:23:56 <Slereah> It's no Handbook of Physics and Chemistry
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22:24:07 <oerjan> the quran, on the other hand, is not so big iirc
22:24:25 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation_(manga) I guess it is impressively thick?
22:24:30 <oerjan> maybe do the talmud instead.
22:25:07 <oerjan> Fiora: wrong reference hth
22:25:16 <kmc> "impressively thick" brings something else to mind when we're talking about yaoi
22:25:29 <Slereah> Yaoi has impressively big hands
22:25:43 <kmc> eh think yaoi is a pretty cool guy
22:25:52 <Slereah> http://bigyaoihandsyndrome.tumblr.com/
22:25:59 <kmc> not clicking that at work
22:26:12 <Slereah> There isn't much naughtiness
22:26:18 <Slereah> Though there are barechested dudes
22:27:31 <Slereah> "And Jacob called the name of the variable, preceded by a question mark."
22:28:20 <Taneb> Slereah, I know the chap who runs King James Programming
22:29:05 <kmc> Taneb: say hi for me, also tell him to do King James ISO 9899
22:29:30 * kmc wonders if "chap" and "bloke" would ever be gender-neutral the way that en_US "guy" sometimes is
22:29:57 <Taneb> I'm starting to use "chap" more and more gender neutral
22:30:03 <Slereah> i believe ladies are "hags" in good ol' britain
22:30:15 <Taneb> Slereah, he says he doesn't have evidence that he isn't Moses
22:30:28 <kmc> who wants a banger in the mouth
22:30:54 <Taneb> Slereah, either that, or asking if you'd like a sausage
22:31:19 <Taneb> Take that as you will
22:32:22 <Slereah> Gravitation is a great book
22:32:27 <Slereah> but it is a terrible textbook
22:32:34 <Slereah> It's even worst than a Feynman book
22:32:50 <kmc> i'm just quoting a TV show
22:33:11 <Slereah> It's the kind of textbook with no fucking structure
22:33:18 <kmc> much like spacetime
22:33:34 <Slereah> Spacetime has so much fucking structure man
22:41:26 * oerjan wraps up kmc in a ricci tensor
22:42:09 <lambdabot> cannot mix `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same ...
22:42:27 <HackEgo> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+1680 OGHAM SPACE MARK] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO]
22:42:47 <shachaf> > text (filter isSpace ['\0'..])
22:43:10 <kmc> `unidecode
22:43:29 <kmc> but where's INVISIBLE THAMES
22:43:31 <shachaf> > let f x = x^2; x = 3 in f x
22:46:41 <Taneb> `unicode MULTIOCULAR O
22:47:02 <Taneb> `unicode CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O
22:48:38 <kmc> `unidecode \
22:48:57 <HackEgo> 1143) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
22:49:31 <kmc> obligatory complaint that ꙮ is Letter, Other
22:49:39 <kmc> but still that's an awesome poem :)
22:49:47 <nooodl_> reminds me of my unicode poetry days
22:49:53 <kmc> yeah I was looking that up the other day
22:50:03 <kmc> wanted to see if `unidecode had all the characters but it hasn't :(
22:50:09 <mauke> "you can't spell sweden without wede"
22:50:34 <nooodl_> `unicode MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN
22:50:40 <nooodl_> `unicode HIRAGANA LETTER YA
22:50:45 <nooodl_> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
22:50:53 <oerjan> i guess if chaucer did weed he might spell it that way
22:51:24 <nooodl_> i don't know the limerick anymore. something about mathematical bold digit seven
22:52:13 <shachaf> SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW is the best code point
22:52:50 <nooodl_> it really is. as if it was made to be the last line of a haiku
22:52:56 <oerjan> the SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW lived in INVISIBLE TIMES
22:53:14 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN
22:53:14 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT SEVEN
22:53:14 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> KANGXI RADICAL WHITE
22:53:14 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> VERTICAL TRAFFIC LIGHT
22:53:15 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN
22:53:29 <kmc> "may you live in invisible times"
22:53:56 <oerjan> kmc: that's what i think every time
22:54:09 <kmc> `unidecode や⛄
22:54:11 <HackEgo> [U+DA7C DUNNO] [U+DC28 DUNNO] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
22:54:18 <kmc> fucking screen
22:54:57 <HackEgo> [U+D83C DUNNO] [U+DC28 DUNNO] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
22:55:14 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=%F0%9F%80%A8%E3%82%84%E2%9B%84
22:55:40 <oerjan> oh so `unicode supports characters `unidecode doesn't
22:55:50 <mauke> unicode.html does both
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22:56:18 <oerjan> mauke: i think the point was to try to get HackEgo to cite the poem
22:56:34 * kmc realizes that "tile" is only debatably one syllable
22:56:40 <kmc> stupid english
22:56:52 <kmc> if we were writing in Hangul we wouldn't have this problem!!!!
22:57:27 <kmc> oerjan: I though it failed because I'm IRCing through GNU Screen which doesn't do non-BMP chars
22:57:47 <shachaf> have you considered using something that isn't GNU Screen
22:58:12 <oerjan> kmc: well you did not paste the right character, but `unidecode didn't handle the right character either.
22:58:25 <kmc> /bin/sh: 1: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
22:59:02 <kmc> /exec -o is always a game of Russian roulette
22:59:14 <HackEgo> [U+4DC0 HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN] [U+D835 DUNNO] [U+DFD5 DUNNO] [U+2F69 KANGXI RADICAL WHITE] [U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DEA6 DUNNO] [U+24EB NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN]
22:59:24 <mauke> yeah, those are surrogate pairs
22:59:41 <kmc> $`unidecode \xf0\x9f\x80\xa8\xe3\x82\x84\xe2\x9b\x84
22:59:55 <kmc> oh i bet my sh isn't bash or some shit
23:00:09 <oerjan> kmc: btw i'm irc'ing through tmux and am having no problem.
23:03:00 <shachaf> http://andrej.com/fan.html
23:03:17 <shachaf> maybe i'll create an andrej bauer fan club
23:03:39 <kmc> maybe i'll create an andrej bauer fan club creators fan club
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23:14:15 <shachaf> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~cangiuli/sigbovik/unintentional.pdf
23:16:45 <kmc> Γ ⊢ FIXME: are these equal?
23:18:32 <shachaf> see also cited http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rjsimmon/random/bovik2007.pdf
23:19:57 <shachaf> good introduction and elimination rules
23:31:21 <Taneb> http://kjprejects.tumblr.com/
23:32:34 <kmc> King James ISO 9899 doooo it
23:32:47 <Taneb> I'm not in charge!
23:32:52 <kmc> but you Know A Guy
23:33:10 <Taneb> There's... not any difference
23:34:25 <Bike> and so it came to pass that signed overflow??
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00:04:44 <Sgeo> "Video: The Essence of C++ (Stroustrup)"
00:04:48 <Sgeo> C++ has an essence?
00:05:49 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think I should use Eclipse
00:05:57 <Sgeo> There are Eclipse plugins for Haskell, Erlang
00:06:04 <Sgeo> Probably a lot of other languages
00:06:51 <Sgeo> "An Eclipse plugin, currently available with CLISP (for WinXP, Macos, Linux) and SBCL (Macos, Linux). It supports the developer with syntax analyses 'as you type' (limited), syntax highlighting, code completion, parenthesis matching, apropos and a listener."
00:07:00 <Sgeo> Why is SBCL so stereotyped as being anti-Windows?
00:13:03 <Bike> because when you booted it it said shit about evil cats
00:14:56 <Bike> which was in the runtime for some absurd reason, so you couldn't remove it
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01:33:32 <kmc> Sgeo: it does!!
01:34:35 <kmc> this is why I say that C++ is a bad language that's bad in a way opposite to most bad languages
01:35:48 <FreeFull> PHP bad is certainly different from C++ bad
01:35:49 <kmc> it's a elaborate and conceptually cohesive design by some very smart people attempting some very ambitious goals (which few others have even attempted) and it kinda collapses under its own weight
01:35:57 <kmc> but it's not just a bunch of unrelated crap thrown together, although that's all most people learn it as :(
01:36:38 <FreeFull> PHP is definitely just a bunch of crap thrown together
01:36:51 <kmc> a lot of the problems with C++ follow from a small number of onerous design requirements
01:36:54 <kmc> some of which are questionable
01:37:14 <kmc> but there's a reason behind everything
01:37:30 <kmc> it's not like PHP where you ask "why is it done this way" and rasmus lerdorf just flips you off
01:38:20 <kmc> "Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out. " — Bjarne Stroustrup
01:38:52 <kmc> it might be called Rust, at least that's the most credible choice I know of
01:39:25 <kmc> D doesn't aspire to memory safety the way C++ does
01:39:47 <kmc> er, the way Rust does
01:39:56 <FreeFull> Rust aspires to memory safety, but not quite in the way C++ does either
01:40:00 <kmc> although C++ does aspire to memory safety to a much greater degree than is realized by the "C with crap thrown in" crowd
01:40:33 <kmc> people say things like "C arrays and std::vector are feature duplication!" but really, you use the former to implemen the latter
01:40:43 <kmc> or to implement other more specialized memory-safe containers
01:40:50 <kmc> you can't really make it memory safe
01:40:56 <kmc> because of iterator invalidation and related issues
01:41:01 <kmc> and there's where Rust has to pull in some research ideas
01:41:27 <pikhq> Well, C++ *is* C with crap thrown in, it's just a bit more complicated than "we wrote stuff that's like C, but different".
01:41:47 <shachaf> That depends on what you mean by "C arrays".
01:42:29 <pikhq> Instead it's "we've got a bunch of desired semantics, and we've got to make it work on something that's different from C in only trivial ways."
01:42:57 <kmc> pikhq: my point is that idiomatic C++ is a completely different beast from idiomatic C. it's not like "write C but also use these other random features when they seem useful"
01:43:01 <kmc> except that's what ~everybody does in practice
01:43:27 <pikhq> Oh, yes, idiomatic C++ is a very different beast from C++ in-the-wild.
01:43:43 <kmc> because doing things The C++ Way requires mastering too many concepts and has too many unfortunate practical consequences
01:43:53 <pikhq> Particularly with C++11, which makes it reasonable to actually The C++ Way.
01:45:48 <kmc> parts of Boost might be considered "idiomatic C++" by definition
01:46:04 <kmc> it's hard to tell where "idiomatic C++" ends and "terrifying abuse of the language" begins, which is part of the problem
01:46:30 <pikhq> But yes, kmc, you're definitely right. C++ is bad because of having design goals that result in something awful when combined, rather than hardly being designed.
01:46:40 <pikhq> Which is pretty unique.
01:46:51 <kmc> Boost has a lot of nice stuff, though, and it's not fair how people judge this large, heterogenous collection of libraries by its most excessive parts
01:47:00 <kmc> pikhq: yep
01:47:12 <kmc> and I would argue that you can do much better if you remove just one or two of those design goals
01:47:42 <kmc> the first ones I would drop are syntactic (near-)compatibility with C, and total compatibility with a C-style build incl. header files etc
01:47:44 <pikhq> Just making it not have to pretend to be C would probably help matters decently.
01:48:08 <pikhq> Unfortunately that feature is probably what made it successful. :P
01:48:24 <kmc> you can use Rust as basically that, and still do unsafe crap everywhere if you like
01:48:40 <kmc> but you still lose some powerful C++ features
01:49:09 <pikhq> I was thinking more in terms of marketing in this...
01:49:11 <kmc> (note that I say "powerful" and not "nice". those C++ features are Not Your Friend but they can do amazing stuff)
01:49:19 <kmc> foremost, templates
01:49:41 <pikhq> The idea that C++ is "C version 2" probably helped a lot.
01:49:51 <kmc> lies are very effective for marketing
01:50:07 <pikhq> Especially ones that aren't obvious.
01:50:32 <pikhq> I mean, C++ looks a lot *like* it's C version 2. (by design)
01:51:16 <kmc> so do Java and C#
01:51:30 <kmc> despite being fundamentally different
01:51:35 <pikhq> To a lesser extent, but yeah.
01:51:54 <kmc> Java was successfully marketed as a "C++ replacement" because people were using C++ for the wrong kinds of things (but for lack of alternatives, so was it really "wrong"?)
01:52:49 <kmc> clearly they should have been using ANSI Common Lisp all along.
02:05:03 <zzo38> Did you lose templates?
02:06:21 <zzo38> What I don't like about C++ templates is using < > for delimiters for the template syntax; it can cause a lot of confusion
02:06:55 <kmc> Rust has generics, but they act much more like traditional parametric polymorphism (with typeclass bounds), rather than the... exotic mixture of polymorphism, macros, and type introspection that is C++ templates
02:07:23 <kmc> Rust has macros too but likewise
02:07:39 <kmc> you can do things with C++ templates that you can't easily do with polymorphism + macros, even together
02:07:55 <zzo38> What kind of things, for example?
02:08:30 <kmc> type introspection, data structures that ask if the parameter type is a pointer or a reference or whether it has a virtual destructor and does different things
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02:09:42 <kmc> this kinda stuffs http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/type_traits/
02:09:55 <zzo38> But how much does it really help?
02:10:04 <kmc> it's cool tho
02:10:20 <zzo38> It doesn't seem so helpful.
02:10:52 <zzo38> Some of those things might be useful, but some doesn't seem like very good.
02:11:21 <kmc> well, as an example, the Rust compiler has a special case to represent Option<T> (which is like Haskell's Maybe T) as one word, when T is a non-nullable pointer (so NULL can be used for None)
02:11:32 <kmc> and it seems like you could do that in C++ purely in library code
02:11:39 <kmc> i haven't tried, though
02:12:06 <shachaf> The special case is for any ADT that's obviously like Option, isn't it?
02:12:26 <kmc> it's not for Option by name, but for any type with the same structure
02:12:30 <shachaf> E.g. I think you get it automatically for the equivalent of Either () T
02:12:44 <kmc> it doesn't generalize out to n-ary enums where n-1 of the ctors are nullary, though :/
02:13:11 <kmc> reserve the first page of addresses for nullary enum discriminants!
02:13:12 <zzo38> If it is only for optimization then such a special case is probably OK, if it is controlled by the optimization setting.
02:13:30 <kmc> zzo38: I don't think it's controlled by the optimization setting, because it's part of the ABI?
02:13:36 <kmc> anyway i have to go, ttyl though
02:13:46 <zzo38> O, it is part of the ABI.
02:13:46 <shachaf> did you know that ghc ignores {-# UNPACK #-} with -O0
02:19:05 <zzo38> GNU C supports a "typeof" operator, which can do some of kind of things, such as typeof(*(X)0) might make the type of what X is being pointed to, but it won't do much with the normal C codes, although it still would have a few uses in macros.
02:19:50 <zzo38> Some of the C++ type adjustments stuff can be done in this way.
02:21:40 <zzo38> Therefore I have made up the (draft) specification which has struct/union with parameters, so using this, typeof becomes more useful, and so do many other things. Does Rust have "typeof" operator? Haskell doesn't seem to have, although perhaps similar things can be done in other ways, using the GHC extensions.
02:23:44 <zzo38> C++ type traits seems to have a lot of things, much seems not so useful, or can cause confusion in some cases.
02:23:55 <zzo38> But, maybe there is a use of it.
02:24:43 <zzo38> It does seem to me like a lot of these features could be simplified by using typeof instead.
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02:32:12 <zzo38> Some of the features may seem to be useful for optimization though; maybe it would help to define another file which is used to specify which optimizations are possible, and if applicable (inside of a #master block) which modules it is applicable to.
02:35:04 <lifthrasiir> shachaf: yes, Either<(),T> does get optimized by rustc.
02:35:42 <zzo38> I didn't know that.
02:35:47 <lifthrasiir> and more generally, it may optimize enum Foo { Null, NonNull(uint, uint, uint, ~uint, uint) } since the NonNull variant has a non-nullable field
03:07:49 <kmc> oh, i didn't know about that
03:10:04 <lifthrasiir> kmc: and the gotcha is that Option<(uint,uint,uint,~uint,uint)> does not get optimized currently (though it's isomorphic to Foo above) ;)
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04:44:54 <pikhq> So, I finally got an electric kettle.
04:44:58 <pikhq> How did I live previously.
04:45:41 <oerjan> steam-powered, obviously.
04:45:47 <lambdabot> ((a -> m r) -> m r) -> ContT r m a
04:46:00 <Sgeo> Would be nice if IO came with a ContT-like function
04:46:07 <Sgeo> So IO instead of ContT r IO
04:46:11 <pikhq> (they are not a common thing in the US.)
04:46:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: You would have to do it yourself, but Haskell lacks the macros to do it conveniently.
04:47:35 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe not
04:48:01 <Sgeo> A single ContT r IO a is basically ... one marker that the continuation is delimited at
04:48:48 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1b8wzp/my_shot_at_cont/c94v11y
04:50:06 <kmc> an electric kettle is not as good for making moonshine
04:50:44 <zzo38> ContT can be used for other things too, like this example: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Bruijndejx A lot of other similar things can be done too, with continuation monads.
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04:53:33 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, but who cares?
04:53:55 <pikhq> Here in Missouri we don't need surreptitious distilling.
04:54:11 <zzo38> People who have electric kettles and who want to make moonshine, would care. If you don't want to make any such things, then you shouldn't care.
04:54:16 <pikhq> Stills are perfectly legal for personal use.
04:56:13 <kmc> distilling your own booze sounds fun tho
04:56:25 <Sgeo> There's a J monad. I do not know what it does.
04:56:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: Where is it in? If you have its definition, then you can learn.
04:56:50 <Sgeo> And of course searching for it gives hits regarding J's different use of the term 'monad'
04:56:54 <pikhq> Yup. And you can do up to 100 gallons of it.
04:56:58 <kmc> can't be as cool as the OMEGA MONAD
04:56:59 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9clsr/wanted_applications_of_the_j_monad/
04:57:09 <pikhq> 100 gallons of azeotropic ethanol? Sure!
04:58:43 <Bike> i got an electric kettle for christmas, after trying and failing to boil water in a microwave
04:58:44 <kmc> that's about 8 × 10^9 joules
04:58:50 <Bike> and british people on irc asked me what the fuck i was doing
04:59:03 <kmc> british people on irc ask me what the fuck i'm doing every day
04:59:07 <pikhq> That's the typical American thing to do.
04:59:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, there it is; furthermore, it is the same as (CodensityAsk (Op r)) which I think I might have proven.
04:59:18 <pikhq> Turns out boiling water in the microwave is shitty.
04:59:24 <Bike> yes. yes, it is
04:59:26 <Sgeo> I have even less idea what CodensityAsk is
04:59:30 <zzo38> (Therefore, the Escardo's S monad is also same as CodensityAsk Predicate)
04:59:42 <pikhq> Hence why I am wondering how I lived.
05:00:03 <Bike> well good to know it will be all my boiling water-related dreams and more
05:00:08 <zzo38> newtype CodensityAsk f x = CodensityAsk (forall r. f r -> (x -> r) -> r)
05:00:19 <Sgeo> Oh, infinite search in finite time
05:01:20 <Sgeo> http://math.andrej.com/2008/11/21/a-haskell-monad-for-infinite-search-in-finite-time/
05:01:25 <Sgeo> Some of those functions already have names
05:02:03 <Sgeo> search is the only one I don't recognize as either being Monad or ... there's another typeclass that union makes me think of, MonadPlus?
05:02:14 <zzo38> One feature of CodensityAsk is that if (Comonad f), then (MonadPlus (CodensityAsk f)).
05:06:32 <Sgeo> "This forces the sets to be non-empty, but has a defect: it also forces the find operator to tell lies when there is no correct element it can choose. "
05:15:12 <Sgeo> I seriously need to compare and contrast Rebol PARSE with monadic parsing
05:15:23 <Sgeo> Don't know enough about the former
05:17:54 <Sgeo> Rebol tends to suffer the same way as concatenative languages from being difficult to read when there are unfamiliar functions present :/
05:18:33 <Sgeo> Also from its love of doing exactly what I hate about dynamic typing culture
05:19:58 <Sgeo> I think I once decided though that Rebol strictly > Tcl
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05:23:42 <Sgeo> http://www.red-lang.org/2013/11/041-introducing-parse.html claims that PARSE is composable
05:23:48 <Sgeo> Well, that the rules are
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05:31:03 <Sgeo> hrmph, I don't think I agree with this slideshow's assessment of Rebol as having "dynamic binding"
05:31:15 <Sgeo> Oh, .... I confused binding and scoping
05:31:26 <Sgeo> It says definitional scoping. Which... ok
05:34:35 <Sgeo> Self-hosting reminds me of nomic. If you have a bug before you self host, that bug could stay there forever and be unfixable without anyone even noticing
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05:37:59 <Sgeo> Oh, rebol's approach to Internet protocols is.... icky
05:38:03 <Sgeo> Global names for schemes
05:38:20 <Sgeo> Being able to type irc:// is SO valuable, let's give up modularity
05:38:28 <Sgeo> I don't know if Red will fix things like that
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05:55:18 <shachaf> zzo38: CodensityAsk should just be called Free or something.
05:55:39 <zzo38> shachaf: I know the name "CodensityAsk" is not so good, but "Free" refers to something else.
05:56:15 <shachaf> But that's a big abuse of the name Free. So many things are free.
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07:19:49 <lifthrasiir> ahaha, there was a big security incident in South Korea which exposed at least 130 million records of personal records from three credit card companies.
07:23:04 <lifthrasiir> and stupidly enough that was because they out-sourced the fraud detection system development to the other company and employees can easily access those informations
07:23:32 <lifthrasiir> seriously, the whole company is a great test bed for crackers :S
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09:22:37 <fizzie> There's some nondeterminism in my sox. :/
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09:24:08 <zzo38> No! You have to put a question mark so that you can question yourself?
09:26:08 <fizzie> There's some nondeterminism in my sox?
09:31:19 <zzo38> Is "Ouch" a proper name for a magical familiar in case they need to have a proper name (for any reason)?
09:32:08 <myname> ew, people actually write "concat [[x], xs]"
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09:34:03 <myname> well, at least some of the students here
09:36:06 <coppro> myname: can you fail them for that?
09:37:05 <myname> i also got [x] ++ xs sometimes
09:37:38 <myname> and even worse: foo (x:xs] | x:xs == [] = []
09:40:37 <myname> i kind of doubt they did proper testing
09:42:00 <myname> but worst thing i have seen so far is
10:05:52 <oklopol> oerjan: (or someone else) do you know a proof that a countable subshift has 0 entropy other than stuff about the variational principle?
10:07:15 <oklopol> (with the variational principle: for subshifts, you can always find a measure of maximal entropy. such measures form a compact simplex so there's an extremal point. but an extremal point is clearly a periodic orbit.)
10:07:51 <oklopol> (and periodic orbits quite obviously have 0 entropy)
10:08:31 <oklopol> the first occurrence of "entropy" in my message being topological
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10:37:01 <Taneb> mroman_, look at the intermediate step
10:39:03 <mroman_> My brain is capable of assuming 4 - 0 = -4
10:39:30 <myname> if you are reading from right to left
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10:40:27 <mroman_> I remember a statistics exam where all my intermediate results were correct
10:40:40 <mroman_> but I failed to write the end result correctly
10:41:24 <mroman_> stuff like sqrt(80) = 9.38
10:41:40 <myname> someone needed to make sqrt(2.25)
10:42:04 <myname> i told him "hey, try writing it as a fraction. hint: .25 may be quarters"
10:42:13 <myname> he wrote sqrt(9/4) in the end
10:42:25 <myname> it was kinda disappointing
10:42:48 <myname> but i assume, you should be able to calculate sqrt(9/4)
10:43:06 <mroman_> how does one multiply fractions again?
10:45:53 <mroman_> I'm pretty bad at math, especially with numbers
10:46:23 <mroman_> but luckily most stuff that's actually required if you're not actually studying math is pretty straight forward
10:48:42 <mroman_> What's the worst grade in the US required to still pass an exam?
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11:54:45 <ion> WeeChat doesn’t handle joining a channel with 45365 users too well.
12:02:15 <Taneb> I did not realise such channels existed
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12:10:39 <ion> taneb: #speeddemosarchivesda on irc.twitch.tv, i.e. the chat backend for http://de.twitch.tv/speeddemosarchivesda
12:12:09 <Taneb> Right, makes sense
12:12:22 <Taneb> A not-really-meant-to-be-used-as-an-IRC-channel IRC channel
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12:20:09 <fizzie> (I did not even know.)
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13:24:58 <boily> {C}: just how many different nicks do you have?
13:26:15 <{C}> boily: the max that's allowed.
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13:30:37 <fizzie> Huh. There's this technology-themed event (short lectures intended for non-specialist audiences etc.) at the nearby conference place soonishly. There's one lecture that's just listed as "Laser".
13:34:47 <fizzie> Well, I don't know. There's a subheading of approximately "technology of light" above that, and something about natural light.
13:35:19 <fizzie> But it's kind of unclear what to expect.
13:35:28 <fizzie> Perhaps they'll burn the attendees with lasers.
13:35:58 <boily> do you smell different if you get burned by different laser colours?
13:36:33 <fizzie> More research is clearly needed.
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14:03:53 <ais523> `run printf "%2x%2x%2x" 71 108 108
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14:08:53 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of #476c6c as, say, a wall paint color?
14:08:54 <fungot> fizzie: it's a common reaction that you seem to be a fnord but good link on simplifying the metaobject stuff i think :p but neighbour might've woken up), 3)
14:12:02 <ais523> fizzie: that color is used as a colorkey for transparent in NetHack 4
14:12:10 <ais523> I'm not sure transparent wall paint would be such a good idea
14:12:21 <int-e> hmm, as a color, that seems a bit dark.
14:12:22 <ais523> you get the benefit of paint but can still see the wall
14:13:24 <fizzie> fungot: Enumerate the non-colorrific benefits of wall paint, please.
14:13:24 <fungot> fizzie: i think that specifing relative heading sizes is not only a disassembler :)
14:13:26 <fizzie> (I'm sure I'll get something relevant out of there if I'm just patient enough.)
14:14:08 <int-e> fungot is about fun, not relevance, or is it?
14:14:08 <fungot> int-e: do you have a picture that actually highlights all of the
14:14:49 <int-e> Now fungot stopped in mid sentence leaving me wondering how it ends. How rude.
14:14:50 <fungot> int-e: i wonder why that restriction was imposed. i wanted to try
14:19:34 <fizzie> fungot: I think there's something screwed up in your hardwired sentence length mechanism.
14:19:34 <fungot> fizzie: are you considering implementing a lang with that syntax?
14:19:53 <fizzie> fungot: Well, no. I can't even see how that makes sense.
14:19:53 <fungot> fizzie: my bot has been down for quite awhile since i've been on sine a few times. i knew i could change it
14:20:22 <fizzie> #esoteric -- the channel where even the bots have bots.
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14:45:37 <boily> that was the most impressivest netsplit I ever seen.
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14:47:58 <ais523> boily: you were on the small side
14:48:06 <ais523> it looked really minor to me
14:50:56 <boily> I was on the miniature side. only my bot, that preflex karmic bot, and I were on it.
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16:09:06 <fungot> FireFly: they take an argument that i call with a selector function to get them started at a young audience.
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16:32:51 <fungot> mrhmouse: are you new to scheme, exporting functions such as map.
16:33:37 <ais523> oh neat, Keymaker proved Forte TC
16:33:53 <ais523> and with a horrendously slow construction, it's always great when that happens
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16:41:29 <boily> Keymaker is still alive?
16:42:06 <ais523> boily: he avoids the IRC channel even more than I do
16:42:14 <ais523> I think we both care about esolangs more than the social stuff
16:49:54 <mrhmouse> Sounds reasonable. In the time that I've spent on #esoteric, I've seen more talk about traditionalangs, Unicode, and Finnish ball alcohol than esolangs.
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16:54:51 <quintopia> ais523: i was wondering whether continued fraction arithmetic was turing-complete
16:55:20 <Slereah> Well continued fraction and what else
16:55:30 <ais523> quintopia: huh, I don't know how it works
16:55:33 <Slereah> Like a functional language with continued fraction as a function?
16:55:43 <quintopia> ais523: for instance, whether one could do arbitrary computation by adding up a list of real numbers in continued fraction representation
16:56:04 <Slereah> If you allow real numbers, then yes
16:56:17 <Slereah> Because you can always find a real number containing exactly what you want
16:56:33 <Slereah> Find the real number containing the solution, divide it by 1
16:56:38 <ais523> yeah but you might not be able to define it
16:56:53 <ais523> actually, I guess that's where the "computable" in "computable reals" comes from
16:57:04 <ais523> computable reals are TC, bounded-storage reals aren't
16:57:06 <Slereah> Some are not even definable!
16:57:09 <quintopia> Slereah: that part is obvious. the less obvious part is whether you can find real numbers which don't require a turing-complete generator to add up to the real number you want
16:57:31 <Slereah> quintopia : "real numbers that don't require a TC generators" are basically integers
16:57:41 <Slereah> Computable reals have a cardinality of aleph naught
16:58:03 <Slereah> If you allow more than integers, you get additions and such
16:58:07 <quintopia> Slereah: i can generate e with a sub-turing complete system. its continued fraction is a dead simple pattern
16:58:12 <Slereah> And additions plus some functional apparatus are already almost TC
16:58:53 <Slereah> Markov did a nice article on how to generate computable numbers
16:59:27 <Slereah> Basically you need three computable integer functions
16:59:58 <Slereah> And you get x = (f(n) - g(n))/h(n)
17:00:12 <Slereah> And this will converge to x with n going to infinity
17:02:02 <Slereah> x = (f(n) - g(n))/(h(n) + 1)
17:02:03 <quintopia> but f, g, and h might require a TC underlying system to compute them, yes?
17:02:19 <Slereah> Well yes, he defined them with µ-recursive functions
17:02:51 <Slereah> if you want to do continued fractions
17:03:06 <Slereah> This will imply some sort of loop
17:03:20 <Slereah> You might be able to replace the µ function with it maybe I guess?
17:03:34 <Slereah> Since it is also at heart the way of looping
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17:11:36 <quintopia> Slereah: i was thinking a way of generating continued fractions where each new term can depend on a constant number of previous terms, with basic arithmetic
17:12:06 <quintopia> Slereah: say, just addition, subtraction, and multiplicatio
17:12:30 <Slereah> Well you can just do addition and multiplication of relative integers
17:13:34 <quintopia> which means that every continued fraction one can generate this way is nondecreasing
17:14:52 <quintopia> but it's clear you can't generate an arbitrary computable number this way
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18:11:47 <Gregor> Y'know, for a program called "Impress", LibreOffice Impress sure doesn't.
18:12:55 <Gregor> @tell oerjan Oh? What does glogbackup say in !logs?
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18:46:16 <int-e> Gregor: Excel also doesn't. So they're in good company.
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18:56:14 <mrhmouse> Is "Impress" the presentation one?
18:57:25 <int-e> funny (I'm lagging). yes.
18:57:55 <int-e> (But at least this is good old-fashioned network lag, not a UI problem.)
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19:56:31 <zzo38> I want to add Dan Hibiki into the Puzzle Strike game. (However, in Puzzle Fighter they only send red gems, and Puzzle Strike doesn't have any red gems; it has only green.)
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20:41:29 <myname> what is the puzzle striker game?
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20:58:31 <mrhmouse> Street Fighter spinoff, I believe
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22:00:17 <lambdabot> Gregor said 3h 47m 22s ago: Oh? What does glogbackup say in !logs?
22:01:37 <oerjan> @tell Gregor iirc it says something like that its logs will be quickly merged once glogbot returns.
22:06:30 <mrhmouse> does anybody know if it's possible to get an input mode (in Windows) like Vim's digraphs? The chorded one is what I'm after (e.g. ^k l *)
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22:08:33 <Taneb> kmc, as someone in the US interested in rail travel, what are your thoughts on http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/10555330/Japan-offers-to-lend-US-half-the-cost-of-Super-Maglev-train-between-Washington-and-Baltimore.html
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22:09:41 <kmc> my first thought is "lol you can't build a bike shed for $8 billion in the US"
22:09:53 <kmc> the japanese clearly aren't used to accounting for our beyond-ridiculous capital construction costs
22:10:07 <oerjan> <fizzie> There's some nondeterminism in my sox. :/ <-- either use the axiom of choice, or use shoes instead hth
22:10:25 <oerjan> also don't be 7 hours idle.
22:10:37 <kmc> maglev has a lot of problems, it needs totally different infrastructure everywhere
22:10:55 <kmc> they can't run high speed trains DC-Baltimore and continue them on to NYC
22:11:18 <kmc> and they aren't that much faster than high speed conventional rail
22:11:24 <oerjan> i thought the japanese were deep in depth already.
22:11:40 <Gregor> <oerjan> @tell Gregor iirc it says something like that its logs will be quickly merged once glogbot returns. // Depends on your definition of "quickly"
22:11:49 <Gregor> I consider "before the heat death of the universe" pretty quick.
22:11:55 <kmc> let's start with America getting some high speed rail of the form that existed in Japan and France 40+ years ago
22:12:00 <oerjan> Gregor: it did almost certainly not use those exact words
22:12:14 <kmc> and that now exists in practically every other developed nation
22:12:34 <kmc> America is just not the place to innovate in rail in any form
22:12:43 <oerjan> except norway. we also have ridiculous rail.
22:12:49 <Gregor> kmc: It was before everybody else beat us :)
22:13:11 <kmc> the only innovation we do is rebuilding things that exist elsewhere from scratch because they aren't american enough
22:13:26 <Gregor> You spelled "they don't have enough Jesus" wrong.
22:13:30 <kmc> like CA High Speed Rail could use ERTMS but ewwww, it has "european" in the name, let's invent our own signalling system from scratch at incredible cost
22:13:55 <kmc> Gregor: in Japan they call him Annual Gift-Giving Man and he lives on the moon.
22:16:49 <kmc> "Conventional Maglev technology is already in use on a number of short routes around the world, but is limited to a speed of around 267mph."
22:17:22 <kmc> there is ONE maglev in the world with passenger service meeting that description
22:17:45 <kmc> it connects Shanghai Pudong International Airport to the outskirts of the Shanghai Metro
22:18:51 <Bike> as in there's only one limited to 267 mph, or only one on a short route
22:18:58 <kmc> the only other "maglevs" in the world are things in the style of airport people movers that get up to 60 mph at most
22:19:19 <kmc> Bike: there's only one that gets anywhere near 267 mph or even a speed that would be impressive in 1900.
22:19:30 <Taneb> kmc, so, you're saying that a newspaper can exaggerate!? Wow!
22:19:42 <kmc> you asked my opinion and there it is :)
22:19:49 <Taneb> Yeah, the article does make it seem futurey
22:20:12 <kmc> Americans love futurey sounding transport crap that will never get built
22:20:22 <kmc> because we are abject failures at implementing technology that was already proven in 1970
22:21:10 <kmc> hence HYPERLOOP
22:21:27 <kmc> the design documents for hyperloop don't hold up to even slight scrutiny
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22:22:02 <fizzie> Look, maglev is perfectly viable in Transport Tycoon, you just apply the conversion tool to the tracks.
22:22:12 <kmc> but thinking that a Silicon Valley billionaire will singlehandedly save us all with UFO technology is more plausible than thinking that the government and the railroad regulators could get their act together and join the 1970s
22:22:18 <Bike> fizzie has a point
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00:50:26 <Sgeo> PARSE isn't _quite_ monadic yet
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00:54:30 <shachaf> what's with the word "noetherian"
00:54:42 <Sgeo> http://www.red-lang.org/2013/11/041-introducing-parse.html
00:57:17 <Bike> you got a problem with noether
00:58:25 <shachaf> but what's wrong with "terminating"
00:58:58 <oerjan> shachaf: um terminating does not indicate _what_ terminates.
01:00:02 <oerjan> if you terminate in the other direction you get artinian instead of noetherian hth (btw i don't remember which is which. or for that matter what that chains are made of.)
01:00:35 <shachaf> i was talking about rewriting systems
01:00:57 <oerjan> i was talking about rings.
01:01:34 <oerjan> and possibly modules. as i said, i don't remember exactly what terminates.
01:01:39 <Bike> "Noetherian rewriting system, an abstract rewriting system that has no infinite chains" huh
01:02:15 <oerjan> hm i have some doubts noether actually investigated those.
01:02:22 <oerjan> but then maybe she did.
01:02:38 <shachaf> ok i guess noetherian means a zillion things
01:02:54 <Bike> well they mostly have to do with infinite chains, probably.
01:03:02 <oerjan> although not quite as many zillions as eulerian.
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01:22:33 <tswett> All right, all right, I've got it.
01:23:29 <tswett> The fundamental unit of computing could essentially be a region of memory tied to some pieces of code manipulating it, right? Call this whole assembly an "object".
01:23:42 <tswett> Programming could consist simply of combining objects in certain ways.
01:24:15 <{C}> the fundamental unit of computing is the symbol.
01:25:01 <{C}> computation is symbols with rules.
01:25:28 <Bike> the fundamental unit of computation is the string, from which i shall make the ultimate programming language, snobol
01:25:38 <{C}> Bike: thank you, we needed that.
01:25:55 <tswett> It turns out the fundamental unit of computing is actually the troy pound.
01:26:08 <{C}> pffthahaha.
01:26:22 <oerjan> this is why computing feathers is harder than computing gold.
01:26:49 <oerjan> wait should it be lead.
01:28:03 <oerjan> apparently it can be gold as well.
01:28:13 <{C}> it can. gold is incredibly dense.
01:28:30 <tswett> Suppose we have a "beep" object. The object must be invoked exactly once. The object has no memory, takes no input and produces no output. When the object is invoked, the system beeps.
01:28:34 <tswett> What is the type of the object?
01:29:01 <{C}> the type of the object is a beep, derived from noise, derived from a call.
01:29:23 <tswett> (Which system beeps? The Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways, obviously.)
01:29:35 <{C}> and you just lost me.
01:30:21 <oerjan> none of you were ever found anyway.
01:31:19 <Bike> what the hell is a type
01:31:53 <tswett> A type is a property of an abstract object determining the contexts in which it can be meaningfully used.
01:32:02 <tswett> shachaf: stick a colon in front of each of your messages!
01:32:05 <Bike> what's "abstract" and "context" and "meaning"
01:32:17 <Bike> what are all these shockingly unfundamental things!
01:32:50 <tswett> Bike: consult the Blue Book.
01:32:54 <{C}> zooba wha.
01:33:09 <{C}> blue book? wazzat?
01:33:19 <{C}> what're all of these marvelous things?!
01:33:33 <Bike> i think that was a touhou fan comic
01:34:11 <tswett> The Blue Book is also known as "Fundamentals of Philosophy", published by David Zeittler in 2018.
01:34:42 <{C}> fuckin' lol.
01:35:10 <tswett> He describes a complete philosophical framework within which most major philosophical problems can be solved.
01:35:31 <{C}> I'm fully convinced that tswett is insane.
01:35:31 <tswett> It's quite the book. You should read it.
01:36:42 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
01:37:09 <Bike> hm never heard of that
01:37:54 <tswett> So, where were we. I was trying to figure out the type of an object which must be invoked exactly once, and then returns control.
01:38:40 <tswett> Isn't linear logic supposed to have such a thing...
01:38:49 <oerjan> i think trying to find a fundamental unit of computing always flops.
01:38:53 <shachaf> {C}, sacrifice Linear Interpol: You get an emblem with "Creatures you control get +4/+4 and have double strike and trample."
01:39:01 <{C}> friggin' lol.
01:39:09 <{C}> I don't even know.
01:39:22 <{C}> I'm keeping that.
01:39:35 <shachaf> no one's buying the act, oklopol
01:41:07 <tswett> Lessee, one lolly one is bottom par one which, in the waiting state, is... some thing, who the hell knows...
01:41:45 <shachaf> just use chu spaces to figure it out
01:41:46 <tswett> How the hell is it determined which of the things in a par is... eh, best not to think about it.
01:41:57 <tswett> The object I mentioned has type Unit -> Unit.
01:41:58 <shachaf> the chu space calculator will even do it
01:42:22 <shachaf> http://chu.stanford.edu/live/
01:42:23 <tswett> You invoke it using a Unit as input. It replies with a Unit as output.
01:45:16 <tswett> How about an "int" variable? !((Int -> Unit) & (Unit -> Int)), of course.
01:46:41 <tswett> But perhaps an int variable is best seen as an object that can be gotten and set an unlimited number of times.
01:46:55 <tswett> But then I suppose that really, an int variable ought to be destroyed exactly once.
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01:53:12 <Sgeo> Someone claimed that Rebol PARSE and Parsec are in the same class
01:54:13 <Sgeo> A DSL that Rebol comes with for parsing
01:54:50 <Sgeo> http://www.red-lang.org/2013/11/041-introducing-parse.html
02:04:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, this is the first time I've heard of Rascal
02:04:33 <Sgeo> Or... hmm, looks familiar, just the page I mean
02:08:18 <Sgeo> The full BF impl is 404ed
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02:19:02 <Sgeo> In order to do closures in Rebol you need to specify that the environment you're closing on (if a function) is a closure when you define it
02:20:15 <Bike> «@me_irl: i'm going to have a "for dummies" series of technical guides but with names like From Hell's Heart I Stab At... Microsoft SQL»
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02:26:43 <Sgeo> kmc: http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/concepts/modules-loading.html
02:26:55 <Sgeo> Check out the section "Validating modules with a hash checksum"
02:27:23 <Sgeo> Seems more thoughtful than you'd expect from a language that's ok with running code directly from the Internet
02:32:06 <pikhq> Lots of languagesw are fine with that.
02:32:13 <pikhq> I mean, curl | sh is an idiom, right?
02:32:38 <Bike> well, i for one don't think of shell as "thoughtful"
02:33:14 <kmc> a thoughtful, minimalist, artisinal shell, done right
02:33:23 <kmc> a shell that celebrates craftsmanship
02:33:39 <kmc> "the slow fourier transform movement"
02:37:21 <oerjan> transforming while you eat carefully prepared food and watch the next norwegian real-time documentary on grass growing.
02:37:42 <oerjan> (no, i don't think that documentary has been made yet, although it's inevitable.)
02:38:07 <kmc> i'm sick of documentaries about grass growing, i want a gritty antihero drama about grass growing
02:38:12 <kmc> ...... probably been done fsvo "grass"
02:38:18 <Bike> developmental biology is cool :<
02:38:55 <Bike> i mean, just focusing a camera on it isn't going to be any better than focusing a camera on hitler as he goes on and on about music
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02:51:04 <Sgeo> "A function that is used as an infix operator. Examples are +, -, [bad-link:functions/z-gtb-lt.txt] and /."
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04:16:08 <kmc> are there fullwidth versions of æ and Æ and such?
04:17:30 <pikhq> Doesn't seem to be.
04:17:44 <kmc> also they should have them for ☹ and ☺
04:18:22 <kmc> Bike: I would buy From Hell's Heart I Stab At Microsoft SQL
04:19:16 <pikhq> So would many of my coworkers.
04:19:31 <olsner> I've never dealt with microsoft sql ... is it bad?
04:19:33 <kmc> Bike: also I was confused about the weird way you were quoting yourself, before I figured it out
04:19:38 <kmc> olsner: it's software, so yes
04:19:54 <pikhq> Microsoft somehow is amazing at hardware.
04:20:26 <Bike> i wasn't quoting myself
04:20:30 <olsner> pikhq: I think it's because they don't make it themselves
04:20:59 <kmc> Bike is serious like a heart attack
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04:43:31 <kmc> til there's a band named The Internet
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04:56:11 <oerjan> but still no Main Page?
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04:57:55 <kmc> larry page should have a kid and name them Main Page
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04:58:21 <oerjan> itt we recommend people how to get sued by their kids
04:59:32 <Bike> i know at least one person who named their kid after an anime character, the future is weird
04:59:51 <kmc> i know siblings named Zarathustra and Galadriel
05:02:36 <kmc> hm my hands are covered in glitter
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05:14:46 <oerjan> kmc: i can disconfirm that saying Zarathustra and Galadriel causes this effect in general hth
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06:05:04 <oklopol> so i switched from xp to linux mint since it's going to explode soon, and since i had some trouble getting internet to work in chile
06:05:22 <oklopol> now every morning starts with 10 minutes of waiting for it to wake up or with a restart
06:06:08 <oklopol> is this a particularly bad linux or is xp just a particularly good os?
06:07:14 <oklopol> (to be fair, apart from the morning sickness, this is much faster than xp)
06:07:47 <olsner> computers are often tested and made to work with windows, less often with linux
06:10:28 <oklopol> yeah this is not even one of the few linuxes they list on their webpage
06:10:36 <oklopol> i mean the manufacturer or whatevererer
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06:11:04 <oklopol> it's a lenovo thinkpad and i was a bit skeptical how well linux would work because they seemed to have made some hacks on top of windows
06:11:31 <kmc> thinkpads have pretty good linux support generally
06:11:40 <oklopol> because for example the list of available networks was always empty, and instead you used this magical black thinkpad window to connect
06:11:50 <kmc> did you check out thinkwiki for your model
06:12:20 <oklopol> holy crap there's a wiki dedicated to this.
06:12:27 <oklopol> why do i ever do anything without asking here first
06:15:29 <oklopol> (although it's a bit hard to google much when the reason you are installing linux is that you cannot access the internet)
06:16:28 <olsner> it's annoyingly common that the first thing you need internet for is downloading network drivers
06:20:33 * Bike spent a whole day doing so gggghggh
06:20:38 <quintopia> good thing we all have backup computers eh
06:26:37 <olsner> fun fact: Eureka (the tv series) had a cure for the common cold, but allegedly it was simply too expensive to make
06:27:27 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, new catsters videos
06:27:47 <olsner> whoa, whoa, whoa! what are catsters videos?
06:28:39 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCatsters
06:40:49 <fizzie> If "waiting for it to wake up" means some sort of suspend mode, those are often remarkably flaky on Linux.
06:41:15 <fizzie> I don't think I've personally ever had a laptop with an entirely working suspend-resume behavior in Linux.
06:44:44 <shachaf> Do you mean suspend-to-disk or just regular suspend?
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07:00:16 <fizzie> Either, really. But maybe suspend-to-disk has been slightly more reliable, IME.
07:00:33 <shachaf> regular suspend works fine for me
07:00:48 <shachaf> and also worked fine on N previous laptops
07:00:49 <fizzie> Some people just have all the luck, I guess.
07:02:35 <shachaf> i do keep a rabbit's foot in the same bag i put the computer in
07:03:36 <shachaf> it is connected to a rabbit
07:03:45 <shachaf> the previous two statements are false
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08:24:43 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't have any suspend mode
08:24:56 <oklopol> not even anything resembling a screensaver
08:37:00 <oklopol> it just gets lonely i guess
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12:20:03 <ion> The Awful Games Done Quick part is up. Next up: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes and E.T. http://de.twitch.tv/speeddemosarchivesda
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13:05:04 <boily> good unidling morning!
13:06:10 <fizzie> What sort of a dling is a uni-dling?
13:07:19 <boily> it's the Whole Entire Uni-Versal Dling of Them All.
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15:30:09 <ion> Shaun! http://youtu.be/0t0uCWjQ6Og
15:30:39 <boily> shaun, as in the sheep of the same name?
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16:10:01 <Taneb> I found a shop that sells typewriter ribbon so I bought some but it isn't compatible with my typewriter
16:11:45 <ion> An excellent video in which a professional corrects some common misunderstandings about digital audio. (Those 192 kHz/24 bit music downloads are just a waste of disk space.) http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
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16:20:50 <boily> quintopia: I watched it during the holidays. it was an ok movie.
16:21:02 <boily> Taneb: buy a new typewriter?
16:25:29 <olsner> oh, a simon pegg movie I haven't seen
16:29:03 <Taneb> boily, expeeensiiiiibe
16:30:24 <boily> that much? I don't know what's the average MSRP for a middle-end typewriter?
16:35:59 <Taneb> But I got this one for £5 at a charity shop
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17:30:48 <fizzie> I am feeling very stupef now.
17:30:49 <fizzie> Ordered a replacement DVD drive, because the old one had started to make this every-now-and-then-about-once-a-day series of seeking/"bootup" noises (even with no disc), and no longer read anything.
17:30:54 <fizzie> The new drive arrived today; after opening up the box to install it, discovered that the SATA data cable was kinda-sorta half-loose.
17:30:57 <fizzie> After plugging that in, the old drive seems to work just fine. :/
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17:54:03 <mrhmouse> Damn :( Well, now you can watch _two_ DVDs!
17:55:43 <fizzie> Actually I was thinking I'm going to take advantage of the guaranteed 14-day for-free return period for internet shopping. But I'm still a bit ashamed to be wasting the shop's money.
17:56:51 <fizzie> Oh well. I bought my last graphics card from them, let's hope it had enough of a profit margin to cover mailing a small box around a bit.
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18:02:09 <olsner> this orange juice is enriched with "one of the most studied species of bacteria"
18:03:09 <quintopia> "this tea is enriched with one of the most studied species of microscopic flatworm"
18:03:29 -!- tswett has joined.
18:03:35 <tswett> So what's with Chu spaces?
18:06:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:11:15 <tswett> Whoa, what? This says bottom times bottom is top.
18:13:45 <boily> quintopia: I'm not a fussy eater, I'll gladly eat just about anything, and drink stuff that may have been somewhat liquid in its distant past but now evolved to a new phase, but... flatworms???
18:17:15 <boily> oh. you were being biologically sarcastic.
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18:19:56 * boily ties Bike to a hopefully stable connection
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18:27:01 <metasepia> CYUL 091800Z 26008KT 15SM FEW030 M09/M16 A3059 RMK SC1 SC TR SLP361
18:28:53 <metasepia> EFHK 091820Z 06003KT 9999 FEW015 BKN023 03/02 Q0997 NOSIG
18:30:59 <tswett> I now have statistically significant evidence that if I ~metar an arbitrary string of four letters, there's less than a 50% chance I'll have hit a real station.
18:31:52 <metasepia> ZUUU 091800Z 02005MPS 7000 SCT050 06/02 Q1023 NOSIG
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18:38:21 <tswett> Eh? I asked Wolfie for a confidence interval, with a confidence level of 0.95, given a sample size of 5 and a sample proportion of 0.
18:38:43 <tswett> It says the actual chance of hitting a real station is probably less than 2.2*10
18:39:13 <tswett> (The actual chance of hitting a real station is certainly less than 2.2*10.)
18:41:01 <quintopia> boily: also the fact that C. elegans is awesome (or is that a roundworm?)
18:41:58 <olsner> yes, that's a roundworm
18:43:29 <olsner> oh, c. elegans caused a nobel prize, that's not bad for a wee roundworm
18:43:48 <tswett> Okay, Clopper-Pearson gives a more realistic answer. It says the probability is probably at most 0.5218.
18:44:37 <tswett> Jeffreys says it's probably at most 0.3794. Oddly, it also says it's probably at least 9.342*10^-5.
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18:46:58 <HackEgo> 608) <twice11> Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. <twice11> You measure a third point if you need an error estimate. \ 1130) <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
18:47:38 <tswett> Statistics with one data point is mathematics.
18:48:05 <tswett> If I pick a random person from the world population, and that person is female, I can conclude that there exists at least one female.
18:49:09 <boily> I find that conclusion presumptuous, you vile cishet male! check your privileges!
18:51:07 <boily> (meanwhile, I received the manga I ordered! :D)
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18:52:53 <boily> elliott: what am I dumbing?
19:01:53 * boily , undertaking great risks with such a dangerous gesture, mapoles elliott
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19:12:26 <boily> `relcome stuntaneous
19:12:29 <HackEgo> stuntaneous: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:28:00 <myname> is there a shm-script?
19:28:41 <myname> like s/([^aeiou]+)(.*)/\1\2 shm\2/
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19:30:58 <quintopia> boily: i find it strange that your list of common continuous distributions did not include normal
19:31:07 <boily> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nsed -e \'s/([^aeiou]+)(.*)/\1\2 shm\2/\' "$@"' >bin/shmify
19:31:09 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nsed -e \'s/([^aeiou]+)(.*)/\1\2 shm\2/\' "$@"' >bin/shmify'
19:31:32 <boily> quintopia: it's something that irks me to no end, to have a statistics `quote without that PDF.
19:31:41 <myname> also, there needs to be ^ and $
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19:32:07 <boily> myname: please do it. my '"'"'"'-fu is weak today.
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19:33:42 <olsner> boily: \ in ' does nothing, so \' is a literal backslash and the end of the quoted string
19:34:46 <olsner> fun way to put a literal ' in a '-quoted string: '"'"'
19:35:13 <myname> that's even worse than what visual basic does
19:36:19 <olsner> ('\'' might be more readable, but less fun)
19:37:38 <myname> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nsed -e '"'"'s/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/'"'"' "$@"' >bin/shmify
19:37:42 <myname> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nsed -e '"'"'s/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/'"'"' "$@"' >bin/shmify
19:38:05 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/shmify: Permission denied
19:38:11 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:38:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/shmify: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/shmify: cannot execute: Permission denied
19:38:42 <boily> `run chmod 0755 bin/shmify
19:38:52 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 31: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
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19:42:22 <olsner> hmm, "$@" as an argument to sed? did you mean echo | sed, or should it be used like \? "$@" | shmify?
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19:59:44 <Slereah> Would the regex for all the names of Ghaddafi be ^[^qgk]h?add?h?af?fi$
20:00:02 <kmc> there's a stacoverfluw qusetion about that
20:00:05 <kmc> can't be bothered to spell sorry
20:00:31 <Slereah> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5365283/regular-expression-to-search-for-gadaffi
20:02:23 <olsner> but are all combinations for each choice valid, or are there just three or something different transliteration schemes?
20:03:38 <Gregor> I doubt that "Qhaddhaffi" gets much use, but if it ever appeared at all, I expect it would be Gadaffi.
20:03:44 <olsner> hmm, not that people would follow any given scheme consistently anyway
20:04:02 <Slereah> olsner : http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2009/09/how-many-different-ways-can-you-spell-gaddafi/
20:04:10 <Slereah> Apparently Kaddafi just did not give a fuck
20:05:25 <olsner> oh, and are there many spellings in arabic too, or is there a single correct original spelling?
20:06:50 -!- stuntaneous has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:07:31 <HackEgo> [U+0627 ARABIC LETTER ALEF] [U+0644 ARABIC LETTER LAM] [U+0642 ARABIC LETTER QAF] [U+0630 ARABIC LETTER THAL] [U+0627 ARABIC LETTER ALEF] [U+0641 ARABIC LETTER FEH] [U+064A ARABIC LETTER YEH]
20:10:02 <olsner> I think those are the names of the letters, not the pronunciation
20:11:04 <boily> al-qafthalaleffehyeh. ← I prefer that version.
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21:54:43 <Vorpal> Are there any command line tools or python libraries or similar to easily extract data from HTML pages. Lets say, finding new posts on some web site without RSS feeds, that sort of stuff.
21:55:15 <Vorpal> I don't particlarly enjoy parsing HTML, and I doubt an XML parser would like this particular HTML either
21:56:23 <kmc> Beautiful Soup is a good Python library for web scraping
21:57:03 <kmc> it deals with the kind of terrible HTML found in the wild
21:57:14 <kmc> the other approach I would suggest is PhantomJS / CasperJS, which runs a real (headless) WebKit browser instance and lets you interrogate it with javascript
21:57:29 <kmc> that lets you scrape even very dynamic sites
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22:06:05 <Vorpal> I'll avoid the js path if possible since I don't really know js all that well
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22:06:52 <kmc> looks like you can use PhantomJS from Python as well: http://www.realpython.com/blog/python/headless-selenium-testing-with-python-and-phantomjs/#.Us8db5WVthE
22:07:36 <kmc> JavaScript is a fairly shitty language but it's also simple, especially if you're just writing "scripts" and not trying to architect a large application
22:08:02 <kmc> my main advice is to get a program like jslint or jshint and pay attention to its warnings, even if you end up disabling some
22:08:34 <Vorpal> Basically I discovered that the feeds provided by youtube behind the scenes (not easy to find) lags behind, and the web site I normally used (youtube video deck) recently started missing a few posted videos. And do not even speak of the subscription list on youtube, it is terrible. I haven't seen the channel pages fail though
22:09:08 <Vorpal> So my plan is to scrape them for all my subscriptions and diff the result (plus add in some system to mark videos as watched)
22:09:49 <Vorpal> Then I'll probably throw this up on my nginx web server running on my RPi so I can use it from my tablet as well.
22:10:45 <Vorpal> Not sure how to best do the page generation on the RPi though... cron script is probably easiest?
22:11:08 <kmc> if you run nginx on an RPi does it become an ЯPi
22:12:38 <Vorpal> I run ssh, nfs, samba, ipv6 tunnel, openvpn tunnel and a few other things on it too
22:12:55 <Vorpal> 512 MB RAM goes a long way when you don't use a GUI
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22:20:15 <tswett> So it seems like first-order logic is a lot more popular than second-order logic. Why is this? Is it because of its simplicity and Gödel's completeness theorem?
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22:58:31 <Vorpal> kmc, wrt js being for scripts, so is python to quite a large degree
23:04:05 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ sed -e 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/' "$@"
23:04:35 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 31: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
23:04:55 <oerjan> i was wondering about that
23:06:06 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
23:07:13 <oerjan> `run echo sed | sed -e 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/'
23:07:14 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 31: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
23:07:23 <oerjan> `run echo sed | sed -e 's/^([^aeiou]\+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/'
23:07:25 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 32: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
23:07:33 <oerjan> `run echo sed | sed -e 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm/'
23:07:34 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 29: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
23:07:52 <oerjan> `run echo 's/^([^aeiou]\+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/'
23:07:54 <HackEgo> s/^([^aeiou]\+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/
23:08:47 <oerjan> `run echo sed | sed -e 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1/'
23:08:48 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 23: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
23:08:56 <olsner> `run echo sed | sed -e 's/^\([^aeiou]\+\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/'
23:09:27 <oerjan> ah it was all that non-perly syntax
23:09:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ sed -e 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/' "$@"
23:09:51 <kmc> Vorpal: I didn't say that either is "for scripts"
23:09:58 <kmc> I said that there's less to learn if you're only using them for scripts
23:10:02 <kmc> that's probably true of any language
23:10:11 <oerjan> that "$@" is also obviously wrong.
23:10:21 <kmc> but it's especially true of JavaScript, because the design patterns for large applications are just design patterns and not things built into the language
23:11:30 <oerjan> `run (echo '#!/bin/bash'; echo 'echo "$@" | sed -e '\''s/^\([^aeiou]\+\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/'\'' >bin/shmify
23:11:31 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
23:11:35 <oerjan> `run (echo '#!/bin/bash'; echo 'echo "$@" | sed -e '\''s/^\([^aeiou]\+\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/'\'') >bin/shmify
23:11:36 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
23:12:00 <oerjan> `run (echo '#!/bin/bash'; echo 'echo "$@" | sed -e '\''s/^\([^aeiou]\+\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/'\') >bin/shmify
23:13:51 <olsner> `run (echo '#!/bin/bash'; echo 'echo "$@" | sed -e '\''s/^\([^aeiou]*\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/'\') >bin/shmify
23:14:51 <oerjan> yeah i was also thinking it should be *
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23:19:47 <Vorpal> <kmc> that's probably true of any language <-- well yeah
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00:33:39 <int-e> Vorpal: finished Botanicula (is trying to collect all cards worthwhile? I got 115/123)
00:34:42 <int-e> Anyway, fun little game.
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01:04:18 <int-e> Never mind, aunt Google says that 3 boxes is all. So it's just the cards themselves.
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01:41:42 <Bike> i am trying my hand at reading driver source. this may have been a mistake
01:43:24 <Bike> http://www.skbuff.net/ eg
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04:14:02 <HackEgo> 50) <apollo> So... copyright doesn't really apply to God.
04:14:06 <HackEgo> 306) <elliott> Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries.
04:14:11 <HackEgo> 564) <CakeProphet> l;le;ler;le;lr;e;ler;ler;le;lerr;le;le;erle;e;rler;lere;er;lerrelrrerererlanggt
04:14:14 <HackEgo> 726) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
04:14:17 <HackEgo> 182) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
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06:42:27 <Sgeo> Rebol seems... unsafe
06:42:40 <Sgeo> In a similar way to Kernel, except possibly worse
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07:10:44 <shachaf> apparently england has a new primate
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07:15:47 <Sgeo> Someone or some animal was born there???
07:16:04 <kmc> i'm a primate
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09:01:47 <Sgeo> " We don't tell someone to take out the garbage and then they shoot the cat if you don't say "Oh... wait... I meant ONLY take out the garbage"!"
09:31:05 <b_jonas> Sgeo: what are those? they're not on the wiki
09:32:23 <Sgeo> Not sure the best URL to link for Rebol
09:32:34 <Sgeo> Kernel: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
09:32:47 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebol
10:19:11 <Sgeo> "I'm submitting a patch where basically every function has /only. If you don't specify it, it will open a pop up window that plays Tetris."
10:33:54 <b_jonas> wait, so rebol isn't actually an esolang? so that's why it wasn't on the wiki!
10:35:25 <FireFly> Instead it's on the other wiki
10:45:42 <impomatic> I can't get the Rebol Core War to run :-(
10:45:59 <impomatic> ** Script Error: Invalid path value: 1 ** Where: redrag ** Near: pane/1/size: val: size - (2 * edge/size) :-(
10:48:29 <impomatic> It's here http://akson.sgh.waw.pl/~pg23193/corewars/ also on Github https://github.com/paweu/rebol-corewars
11:16:29 <b_jonas> how come everyone seems to think that ioccc 8086 emulator is so amazing? I think it might be nice obfu, but it goes against the ioccc spirit because it stores important data (tables for interpreting instructions) in an aux file outside the source code, thus subverting the code size limit.
11:17:28 <olsner> hmm, can it emulate other architectures by replacing the data file?
11:17:53 <ion> DRM is preventing the Surgeon Simulator speedrun on http://de.twitch.tv/speeddemosarchivesda :-D. The video streaming device they’re using says something like “no signal” when no video output is connected. Now it says “HDCP”.
11:17:59 <b_jonas> olsner: of course it can. the data file is a bios, so as long as you can write an emulator of the other arch in x86_16, it can emulate it.
11:18:18 <b_jonas> olsner: well, all of it has to fit in less than 1M of memory obviously
11:19:19 <olsner> a BIOS doesn't have to count against the emulator's code size, I think that's reasonable
11:20:47 <olsner> but "tables for interpreting instructions" doesn't sound like the bios
11:21:13 <b_jonas> olsner: exactly, it's not a stock bios, it emulates some of the io devices of the machine too
11:21:26 <fizzie> I got the impression that the "bios" file is still plain 8086 assembly.
11:21:52 <fizzie> So the C code is a proper 8086 CPU emulator. I don't think anyone's begrudging it for not emulating devices.
11:22:05 <b_jonas> but it also has tables for decoding the x86 instructions
11:22:09 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I've only looked at the hint file.)
11:22:10 <b_jonas> that's what the hint file claims
11:22:35 <fizzie> So there's some look-up tables in there.
11:22:41 <fizzie> I guess that's a little bit shady.
11:23:04 <b_jonas> I mean, putting support to an extra file is completely normal for such an emulator, whether in a production or in obfu, but the ioccc is about the size limit
11:23:28 <fizzie> Arguably, it's also about rule abuse.
11:23:51 <b_jonas> I think that's definitely against the rules
11:24:05 <fizzie> "Legal abuse of the rules is somewhat encouraged."
11:24:40 <fizzie> I tried to look up something more explicit about the source length the other day, but I might've missed something.
11:25:09 <b_jonas> there used to be a rule or guideline saying that the program must work without the info files
11:26:09 <b_jonas> in the guidelines, "We really dislike entries that make blatant use of including large data files to get around the source code size limit."
11:26:53 <b_jonas> so it's not technically against the rules,
11:27:02 <b_jonas> but it's definitely discouraged in the guidelines
11:27:37 <fizzie> Well, it's a value judgement. I guess they liked it otherwise enough.
11:28:06 <fizzie> "Entries that violate the guidelines but remain within the rules are allowed."
11:28:11 <Taneb> Today I have decided to draw
11:28:22 <Taneb> On the basis that if I never draw I will never be able to draw well
11:28:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, it's not the ioccc judge's decision that is my problem
11:28:46 <b_jonas> it's other people's reaction in twitter
11:29:05 <b_jonas> who all claim "a 8086 emulator in 4000something bytes" or similar
11:30:08 <fizzie> "We prefer programs that don't require a fish license for pet fish." I wonder if/how that particular guideline has come up.
11:30:26 <b_jonas> mind you, Cable is definitely clever for fooling all those people by hiding the tables this way
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11:37:44 <fizzie> Oh, how nasty; matlab-mode in emacs (at least this version) rebinds M-; to "matlab-comment" from comment-dwim, and therefore can't be used to comment-or-uncomment-region if a region is active.
12:16:16 <int-e> this property name makes me chuckle: browser.safebrowsing.malware.enabled
12:24:24 <mroman> Who wouldn't want to enable malware.
12:26:14 <mroman> `run echo '123' | ghc -e 'main=interact$reverse'
12:26:21 <HackEgo> \ <interactive>:1:5: parse error on input `='
12:26:37 <mroman> `run echo '123' | ghc -e 'interact$reverse'
12:33:41 <mauke> `run echo '@REVERSE\ARG:1' | ploki - 123
13:01:03 <Taneb> Has anyone ever created an esolang in front of a live audience
13:02:06 <mroman> But seeing as most languages were invented in five minutes it can't be that hard to do
13:02:11 <mroman> given that you have an audience.
13:02:28 <Taneb> Like, with audience participation
13:02:41 <mroman> In fact, I'm surprised there isn't a metal-tool which can create brainfuck derivatives automatically
13:02:54 <mroman> and create an interpreter for it automatically too
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13:03:22 <mroman> "Automatic brainfuck derivatives construction" sounds like an awesome paper .
13:04:06 <Taneb> I may actually do this
13:09:10 <fizzie> Taneb: Remember to have it on video.
13:09:28 <Taneb> But it won't be for a couple of months if it happens
13:09:28 <fizzie> Taneb: Then you can post it online, and it can be a part of the wiki entry of the language.
13:10:01 <Taneb> Well, the next slot is the 20th of February
13:11:53 <boily> good breakfast morning!
13:12:44 <Taneb> Right, it looks like it is happening
13:35:28 <b_jonas> I wonder if the audience can prepare suggestions that make your task more difficult
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14:24:16 <b_jonas> LinearInterpol: more specifically, I'd like to see suggestions that seem a good idea at first so the presenter can agree to them, but he finds out later that they're making it difficult.
14:24:28 <b_jonas> if you suggest something that's obviously hard for him, he might not agree
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14:44:55 <FireFly> http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-announce/2014-January/002389.html hm, this sounds bad
14:45:55 <Bike> "checked in on 1991/05/10" hahaha
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14:48:32 <mrhmouse> Hurray for static code analysis...
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14:53:31 <b_jonas> has anyone defined a C++ attribute that sets the color (and font etc) of an identifier for syntax coloring?
14:55:34 <b_jonas> like, say, int frobnicate[[syntax_hilite(bold red)]](const char *foo); and then whenever anyone calls that function its name will be shown in bold red.
14:55:57 <b_jonas> if the compiler doesn't support this, then you macro syntax_hilite to expand to nothing.
14:58:50 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: wouldn't syntax highlighting a single word like that vary between editors?
14:59:28 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: yes, maybe this should specify a css-like class for syntax hiliting instead which you can match from syntax hilite rules
15:00:16 <mrhmouse> what I mean is, how would you have it work across all editors? I don't think it would be feasible.
15:00:41 <b_jonas> like, int frobnicate[[syntax_hilite(dangerous-function)]](const char *foo); and you'd have a css rule somewhere saying .dangerous-function { color: red; font-weight: bold; }
15:00:42 <FireFly> The editors would opt-in to support it I guess
15:01:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: exactly, if your editor doesn't support this you can macro it out to a noop
15:01:46 <mrhmouse> I think you'd have to expand it to a nop anyways, since the compiler really doesn't care about the text of its source code.. right?
15:02:18 <FireFly> I guess potentially the compiler could use the information for warnings/errors if it wants to
15:02:22 <mrhmouse> unless you intend for, say, debug messages to highlight that function name
15:03:23 <FireFly> b_jonas: would the idea be to highlight things that are semantically related using the same colours?
15:03:53 <FireFly> As opposed to highlight based on type or syntax, like editors currently do typically
15:04:54 <mrhmouse> also, if the idea is that it's just for the editor, why not have the indicator in a comment above the method (or inline with /**/ like your current one)?
15:05:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: no, for warnings you have other attributes. some compilers already have attributes for marking deprecated functions, marking functions whose return value you shouldnát ignore, etc.
15:05:34 <b_jonas> if you want to combine both, define a macro that does both, like #define mydeprecated deprecated,syntax_hilite(deprecated)
15:05:46 <b_jonas> or ask the syntax hiliter to recognize and color deprecated functions
15:05:50 <mrhmouse> int frobnicate /* !syntax_highlight(danjah-danjah) */ (const char *foo) { ... }
15:05:58 <b_jonas> this would be a low-level interface to ask the syntax hiliter and only that
15:06:18 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: huh? why magic comments? we already have attribute syntax. (in fact, we have like three different attribute syntaxes.)
15:06:32 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: you can't get magic comments from the preprocessor
15:06:51 <FireFly> b_jonas: I meant for when the compiler prints out the line to which a warning/error relates
15:06:53 <b_jonas> whereas you can generate identifiers using preprocessor tricks and attach attributes to those
15:06:53 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: are attributes part of the preprocessor? I not a C++ programmer, sorry
15:07:04 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: not the preprocessor
15:07:17 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: but the preprocessor passes them through unchanged just like most code
15:07:25 <b_jonas> they're part of the compiler syntax
15:07:37 <mrhmouse> it just seems odd to me to place information about the color of text in the code.
15:07:56 <b_jonas> of course it's odd, we're in #esoteric
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15:08:03 <Bike> imo colorforth
15:08:04 <b_jonas> I don't actually like syntax hiliting at all
15:08:27 <b_jonas> I prefer plain white over black text, and have the code be clear as is
15:08:34 <b_jonas> instead of a hiliter having to parse it for me to understand
15:08:56 <b_jonas> but that's a religious debate and some people swear that syntax hiliting is a good idea
15:09:00 <mrhmouse> well, I like pretty colors because they're shiny. they don't help me parse the text at all.
15:09:55 <mrhmouse> would an attribute that describes the function be acceptable? like your CSS class idea
15:10:15 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: do you mean you like to look at the code in pretty colors, or you like to show the code to managers in pretty colors?
15:10:29 <mrhmouse> int frobnicate [[describe(dangerous)]] (const char *foo) { ... };
15:10:48 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: I don't show code to managers, I show solutions to managers
15:10:50 * FireFly would put himself in the former of those sets
15:11:10 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: of course, they don't read the code, they look at the pretty colors
15:11:34 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: I don't think they care about what color it is.. they don't even look at the code, is what I'm saying.
15:11:36 <b_jonas> and like I said, I'm asking about a low-level hook for coloring, not a high level one
15:11:46 <b_jonas> if you want a high level one, you could define a macro that sets the color and something else
15:12:11 <b_jonas> ok, that answers my question, so you like the pretty colors for yoruself
15:12:22 <mrhmouse> yes :) merely because they are pretty colors.
15:12:50 <mrhmouse> white text on black is also fine. (bright background hurts my eyes after a while)
15:15:48 <mrhmouse> I only suggested describing the function with an arbitrary word like that because it's close to your CSS idea but not strictly tied to the display of the text
15:16:09 <mrhmouse> you could, for instance, have it show an alert to the user or something when they write a call to some such function
15:16:38 <mrhmouse> I don't know of any low-level coloring hooks :( you can probably find something close that's specific to your editor, though
15:17:48 <b_jonas> for marking a function to warn whenever you reference it, that's what the deprecated attribute does in some compilers.
15:18:00 <b_jonas> I think you can even give a custom warning.
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15:35:21 <mroman> I prefer syntax highlighting
15:35:32 <mroman> sadly, most editors don't provide smart syntax highlighting :(
15:36:29 <mroman> Most don't highlight typedefs in C for example
15:36:47 <mroman> so int is blue, but int32_t isn't.
15:42:29 <mrhmouse> mroman: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2646
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15:46:48 <olsner> mrhmouse: the c highlighting included in vim highlights builtin typedefs like int32_t already
15:49:22 <mrhmouse> olsner: does it highlight user-defined typedefs? that's what I thought mroman was referring to
15:50:16 <olsner> it's unlikely, it only does lexical analysis afaik, which means it has no idea which typedefs are defined
15:50:37 <olsner> "unlikely" ... I know that it doesn't
15:52:27 <mrhmouse> ah :) I didn't think it did, but I don't really use C beyond occasional bytebeat
16:00:39 <mroman> Yeah @userdefined typedefs
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16:12:23 <mroman> An IDE is supposed to help me.
16:12:54 <mroman> Ok. vim isn't really an IDE
16:13:04 * boily lightly mapoles mroman
16:13:22 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
16:13:31 <mroman> An IDE has auto completion, parameter hints, type info, smart syntax highlighting
16:13:40 <mroman> browsing through code by clicking on function names and stuff
16:13:50 <mroman> otherwise I might as well use nano.
16:14:07 <mroman> And yes, nano is the crapiest editor I know
16:14:38 <mroman> so you may replace nano with the carpiest editor you know
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16:20:32 <mrhmouse> yeah, vim has all of that (with plugins). if you don't want to learn vim, I hear emacs has a couple of features.
16:20:45 <nortti> ed is nice but a bit limited
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16:34:49 <FireFly> See, that's the thing.. probably the thing I value the most with vim (after the whole modal editor thing) is easy access to shell commands
16:35:16 <FireFly> Piping a selection through an arbitrary shell oneliner is powerful IMO
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16:47:06 <boily> FireFly: it's very powerful. that's what I do to slurp in quotes into the PDF.
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17:08:46 <nortti> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
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17:08:59 <nortti> bah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
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17:19:39 <Taneb> Are there any living sexually active popes
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17:22:32 <nortti> Taneb: "There have been 266 popes. Since 1585, no pope is known to have been sexually active before, during or after election to the Papacy"
17:24:01 <Taneb> nortti, will you come to my live esolang creation
17:25:38 <Taneb> Please don't it's gonna be awful
17:27:53 <Taneb> TBD, probably 20th of February at 19:30
17:28:15 <Taneb> Anyway, I have an exam to get to
17:28:20 <b_jonas> question. which esolangs have first-class functions with lambda-like syntax that are closure, but only nullary so they don't take arguments?
17:29:34 <b_jonas> if there's none, then that toy interpreter I wrote ages ago that wasn't intended as an esolang is unique in something!
17:29:45 <b_jonas> mind you, I did intend to have functions with arguments, just never implemented it
17:30:00 <mauke> ploki doesn't have functions but they take arguments
17:31:26 <mauke> there's a unary operator called @OMFG
17:31:42 <mauke> instead of evaluating its operand, it returns the expression itself
17:31:57 <mauke> it also replaces all variables in the expression by their current value
17:32:29 <mauke> the other part is the . infix operator
17:33:11 <mauke> @OMFG FOO . BAR evaluates FOO, setting the pseudo-constant \@ to the result of BAR
17:33:27 <b_jonas> wait... maybe they weren't closure in that language?
17:33:34 <b_jonas> if they weren't, I should make such a language
17:33:47 <b_jonas> trying to understnad the source code now
17:34:26 <b_jonas> where's the rule for function calling in this?
17:34:43 <b_jonas> I'm reading my own old code
17:34:48 <b_jonas> http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/geo-snapshot.tgz
17:35:09 <b_jonas> or maybe http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/scan-snapshot.tgz
17:35:13 <mauke> '@OMFG @foo \@' is effectively a function pointer to foo
17:35:18 <b_jonas> but I think geo definitely had functions
17:35:44 <mauke> ploki only has a call instruction and labels
17:36:16 <b_jonas> mauke: some basic variants also only have no explicitly declared functions, only syntax to call function at a label, and a return statement
17:36:28 <b_jonas> you could say x86_* cpu does that too
17:36:51 <mauke> yeah, I was inspired by both
17:39:43 <b_jonas> scan has nullary non-closure functions
17:40:30 <b_jonas> and geo has no functions at all
17:40:43 <b_jonas> ok, this opens the place for a future esolang that has nullary closure lambda functions
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18:31:18 <boily> `relcome schernova
18:31:20 <HackEgo> schernova: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:31:26 <boily> kmc: we are Friday.
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18:48:01 <boily> k-line? and here I had `relcomed them :(
18:51:22 <kmc> look what you did
18:53:21 <boily> not my fault! it was... uhm... eh...
18:53:29 * boily points randomly over to Taneb
18:53:55 <FireFly> I didn't know a mapole could cause K-lines
18:54:12 <kmc> k-line bottles
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20:07:01 <HackEgo> w00tles: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:26:21 <boily> happy Friday to you too. are you wearing an orange shirt?
20:26:24 <metasepia> CYUL 102000Z 01006KT 10SM -SN OVC018 M06/M09 A3028 RMK SC8 SLP255
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00:39:57 <Sgeo> http://piumarta.com/software/cola/
00:48:05 <int-e> r562 | piumarta | 2008-10-10 03:41:56 +0200 (Fri, 10 Oct 2008) | 1 line
00:48:24 <int-e> 5 years. it does look pretty dead.
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05:29:53 <kmc> where does everybody go when i'm bored? :<
05:29:55 <kmc> incl. bots
05:30:42 <ais523> kmc: I'm watching a speedrun marathon, currently setting up for a 4-way Super Metroid race
05:30:46 <ais523> http://gamesdonequick.com
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05:33:30 <shachaf> today i mentioned that i know someone who's a big fan of gopher
05:33:43 <shachaf> and another person mentioned that they also know such a person
05:33:49 <shachaf> they turned out to be the same person
05:34:27 <kmc> is that person zzo38
05:34:50 <oerjan> kmc: if he didn't mean zzo38 then obviously he would have said he knew _two_ people.
05:35:02 <kmc> quintopia: that's a p. allright show
05:35:33 <quintopia> kmc: and it's marathoning on ion tv when i should be sleeping
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05:36:35 <oerjan> quintopia: six degrees of separation may get a lot smaller when everyone is a geek
05:37:02 <kmc> ion: do you watch ion tv
05:37:25 <kmc> zzo38 is pretty well known http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zzo38
05:38:20 <oerjan> kmc: someone in urban dictionary isn't really well known until they become a synonym for a sex term hth
05:39:33 <kmc> and yeah, the nerd world is p. small
05:41:15 <Sgeo> I think Rebol might actually fake lexical scoping too well (compared to Kernel)
05:41:49 <Sgeo> I can think of circumstances where I want to bend scoping a bit, but Rebol near enforces lexical (despite not having true lexical scoping), but Kernel allows what I want
05:43:14 <oerjan> i can't believe it's not lexical scoping
05:45:27 <zzo38> shachaf: If it is ifMUD, then yes I am on there too; is that what they said though?
05:46:25 <shachaf> also apparently i work in the same building as Don Woods
05:47:19 <zzo38> Don Woods! Do you mean the Don Woods who invented INTERCAL and Colossal Cave Adventure?
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06:01:28 <Sgeo> I'm a spherical coordinate library!
06:01:46 <Sgeo> https://npmjs.org/package/sgeo
06:02:34 <Sgeo> I'm a trendy tote-bag!
06:02:38 <zzo38> Spherical coordinates; it can be useful for geography and for astronomy, perhaps. Probably other things too.
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06:04:43 <kmc> it's kind of neat that you can use the same kind of coördinates whether you are inside the sphere or outside of it
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06:06:35 <zzo38> Can it convert between different references that the longitude is measured on? (For example, this would apply to convert between ecliptic and equatorial coordinates; it would have other purposes too in other areas of study too.)
06:08:26 <Bike> sgeo can you do that
06:09:47 <Sgeo> I have no idea
06:10:57 <Bike> get more self-actualized
06:20:38 <kmc> Sgeo: where does your nick come from anyway
06:21:00 <Sgeo> Mashing together my first and last name
06:21:33 <kmc> "a common approach"
06:24:25 <Sgeo> WHERE DOES THAT STOCK SOUND COME FROM
06:24:42 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCHq6sioZ1E around 1:58
06:24:50 <Sgeo> It's one I've heard in Cybertown
06:29:43 <shachaf> aerated chocolate is strange
06:30:43 <kmc> is it a foam
06:30:47 <kmc> open-cell or closed-cell?
06:36:15 <zzo38> Do you know what is supposed to happen in Sirlin's chess if a duel results in the attacker being exposed to check? (I am guessing the attacker just loses the game as if he ended a turn in check in any other way.)
06:59:53 <Sgeo> Is Sirlin's Chess 2 public domain?
06:59:58 <Sgeo> Would kind of... suck if it wasn'
07:00:27 <Sgeo> Also, what do chess variant sites call it? I doubt they're just going to be fine with calling some random variant "chess 2"
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07:04:54 <zzo38> Sgeo: I really don't like the name "Chess 2" for this game, so I call it "Sirlin's Chess"; other people do too. I don't think the file is in public domain, although you could make implementations and descriptions which are public domain, I think. (The file can be purchased for $0.00, though.)
07:05:18 <kmc> can i purchase it for CHF 0.00 instead
07:06:28 <ais523> btw, it turns out that the biggest Bitcoin mining pool is pretty close to 51%
07:06:28 <zzo38> I don't know what CHF is, but probably you can.
07:06:59 <ais523> which is worrying just because it screws up the assumptions behind Bitcoin for that sort of thing to happen naturally
07:07:04 <Sgeo> ais523: as in, literally 51%, or as in, almost at 50%?
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07:09:31 <coppro> ais523: doesn't a majority mean you can break bitcoin since you can invent fake histories and force them on the cloud?
07:09:45 <ais523> coppro: you can't force a transaction to happen that didn't
07:09:55 <ais523> but you can arbitrarily remove a transaction from recent history
07:10:16 <ais523> (the chance of being able to do that depends on how recent)
07:10:32 <ais523> that pretty much destroys Bitcoin's integrity because you can spend money, then undo spending it and send it to someone else
07:11:15 <coppro> do modern transaction softwares include detection of that sort of fraud?
07:12:03 <ais523> the entire point of the protocol is to detect that sort of fraud
07:12:35 <ais523> but it relies on at least 50% of the miners being honest
07:12:58 <coppro> but if I'm the guy who receives the money, and later the cloud disagrees, I could theoretically alert my user
07:13:08 <ais523> yeah, but they can't do much but bitch
07:13:52 <coppro> if it happened a lot though then they might be able to convince others to join in retake the cloud in favour of the honest miners
07:23:15 <zzo38> I play Sirlin's other games too, such as Yomi and Puzzle Strike, and even made up new decks, rule variants, characters, puzzle chips, game modes, etc.
07:23:55 <zzo38> Do you know any of these games?
07:30:48 <zzo38> Is there a hardware implementation of LLVM?
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07:43:25 <Bike> `localtime Bike
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07:48:22 <Bike> hey kmc or anyone else, is there a good book on linux drivers (or drivers in general, if that's even a thing)
07:52:11 <kmc> Linux Device Drivers
07:52:48 <Bike> who'd have thought (thnks)
07:53:19 <Bike> ff, it's on lwn but in separate chapters. why do they do that...
07:54:30 <kmc> 'night all
08:14:44 <mroman> Any of you guys familiar with fourier transformation?
08:14:59 <zzo38> mroman: I am somewhat familiar.
08:15:35 <mroman> x(t-l) -> X(f)*e^(-i*2*pi*f*l)
08:15:58 <mroman> time shifting property
08:16:35 <mroman> cos(2pi*f*t) has 0.5 at both +f and -f
08:17:31 <mroman> which is usually written as 0.5*d(f-f0) + 0.5*d(f+f0)
08:17:35 <mroman> where d is that dirac thingy
08:17:54 <mroman> X(f)*e^(-i*pi/4) should then be
08:18:16 <mroman> 0.5*e^(-i*pi/4)*d(f-f0) + 0.5*e^(-i*pi/4)*d(f+f0)
08:18:33 <Bike> these readings are impossible! shinji, get out now! the quantum condensation is trapping you in a dirac thingie!
08:18:46 <mroman> at leasts that's what I understand under *multiply spectrum with e^(-i*pi/4)*
08:18:59 <mroman> but apparentely it's totally wrong :(
08:20:43 <Bike> no doctor, the desaturation tides are reversed... it's no longer a sea... but... a thingie...
08:21:05 <Fiora> Bike: it's a villainous octahedron
08:21:26 <mroman> the fourier coefficients of that cos thingy are c_1 = 0.5
08:21:56 <mroman> and doing the time shift there yields c_1 = 0.5*e^(-i*pi/4)
08:22:07 <mroman> which means that c_-1 is 0.5*e^(i*pi/4)
08:23:11 <mroman> Which suggests that 0.5*d(f-f0) is just some notation
08:23:27 <mroman> and one shouldn't acually apply the multiplication on that
08:25:59 <mroman> zzo38: nvm. Looks like some notation issue I fell into :)
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09:34:18 <Bike> "LDD3 is current as of the 2.6.10 kernel." wait, shit
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09:57:31 <zzo38> I have used Fourier transform to implement PADsynth only, so far, although I know it has other uses too.
10:01:55 <Bike> i suppose a book about current kernel anything is basically impossible, huh
10:02:08 <Bike> perhaps i need.... a monograph
10:15:54 <fizzie> Bike: It needs to be a wikibook, obvs.
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11:39:28 <ion> kmc: I’m pretty sure their signals don’t really reach Finiland.
11:39:35 <ion> modulo typos
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11:41:03 <ais523> if I typo a signla it reaches all the way to Finland?
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11:45:58 <Sgeo_> Tomorrow I'm going to try to write out my Kernel vs. Rebol example
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12:02:34 <mroman> How do private schools in the US work?
12:03:05 <mroman> I assume they are still controlled by the government in order to ensure
12:03:18 <mroman> that the education they receive there is adequate to public schools?
12:04:21 <Phantom_Hoover> in the UK there's a government inspection body that does exactly that, i assume the US works along similar lines
12:32:11 <ais523> actually I assume schooling in the US is mostly unregulated
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12:39:30 <olsner> I've heard it's more regulated in the US than it is in Sweden
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12:57:39 <fizzie> There must be some sort of university accreditation, because all those degree-by-email "universities" are always mentioned as unaccredited.
12:57:50 <fizzie> "In most countries around the world, the function of educational accreditation for higher education is conducted by a government organization, such as a ministry of education. In the United States, however, the quality assurance process is independent of government and performed by private membership associations.[1]"
12:58:49 <fizzie> "The U.S. Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) (a non-governmental organization) both recognize reputable accrediting bodies for institutions of higher education and provide guidelines as well as resources and relevant data regarding these accreditors. Neither the U.S. Department of Education nor CHEA accredit individual institutions."
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13:40:08 <ion> http://kindofnormal.com/wumo/2014/01/11
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14:52:53 <ion> http://forestcenter.cl/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karhu
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15:14:41 <oklopol> i guess it's intentional given the röntyset?
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19:01:39 <nortti> "for instance, 400 years before we had computers, we had email, which is a raised or embossed image pressed into metal. "
19:04:42 <Slereah> If it's about telegraphs, it's a bit early
19:04:52 <Slereah> But if it's about actual mail, it's a bit late
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19:26:50 <int-e> hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_Limited
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20:12:54 <fizzie> "Call for Papers - Special Issue on Facial Biometrics in the Wild"
20:16:10 <impomatic> Is tetzold.com down for anyone else?
20:33:49 <nortti> seems to be down from here
20:42:11 <int-e> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/tetzold.com
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21:38:36 <impomatic> Thanks, have emailed the site owner.
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22:30:08 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/mQmXYh4.png
22:34:56 <ion> Spock MacGyver http://youtu.be/wzBShJ2dNfQ
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23:06:28 <nooga> aouch, emacs broke my left pinkie
23:06:58 <FreeFull> nooga: You shouldn't have used the default keybindings
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23:07:09 <FreeFull> They are very stressful if you are using an IBM keyboard
23:07:28 <nooga> yeah, I know about the caps-lock rebind trick
23:07:38 <nooga> but i don't want to apply it system wide
23:07:47 <fizzie> oerjan: There's size-specific rules here, too. Shops larger than 400 square metres have their own rules, and shops smaller than 100 square metres have the same rules as gas station shops smaller than 400 square metres.
23:07:51 <oerjan> kmc: also if by electoral quirks you mean having a proportional system where small parties are needed for stable coalitions.
23:07:57 <fizzie> oerjan: But you can make a bigger shop if it's attached to a gas station.
23:09:38 <oerjan> fizzie: ic. apparently so you can in norway too, although it's not as big a difference. small enough that small shops without gas stations are used, anyway.
23:10:09 <FireFly> nooga: any particular reason why not?
23:10:19 <fizzie> oerjan: 100 square metres is p. small for a shop, to be honest.
23:10:20 <nooga> that idea frightens me
23:11:08 <FireFly> The idea of having a key that causes one to textually scream frightens me more
23:11:26 <FreeFull> I should switch caps-lock to be shift-lock again
23:11:39 <oerjan> fizzie: yes it is, although it's enough for the kind of emergency articles you run to a shop on sunday to buy.
23:11:52 <FreeFull> I wish there was a nice keyboard layout editor
23:12:44 <fizzie> I just went to the nearby gas station shop yesterday, because it's (just barely, but still) the closest shop. Started to change batteries of the smoke detector, only to find that both spares had gone bad.
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23:13:08 <fizzie> (One had leaked innards out, and the other measured about 4.4 V out of the nominal 9 V.)
23:13:09 <nooga> i rebound the caps-lock
23:13:49 <fizzie> (Don't buy "Philips Powerlife" brand, I guess.)
23:13:56 <kmc> nooga: godless bike shops? http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/unkosher_wheels_friendly_faces
23:14:26 <fizzie> (Should've gone with "Philips Longlife" instead.)
23:14:54 <fizzie> Except I don't think I've seen those green "Longlife" ones except in this Google image search.
23:15:27 <nooga> I didn't say anything about godless bike shops
23:15:56 * oerjan thinks the smoke detector here is mains connected
23:16:10 <nooga> I don't even have one
23:16:32 <oerjan> in norway i'm pretty sure they're mandatory by law.
23:16:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:17:02 <oerjan> also i may be breaking the law by not having unpacked the fire extinguisher that was in the closet.
23:17:15 <nooga> I never saw a legit fire in my life
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23:18:00 <olsner> hmm, rewatching babylon 5, I've realized that two main characters look almost exactly the same and I probably didn't realize they were different people the first time through
23:18:01 <oerjan> we did have a false alarm in this building before christmas, someone was making christmas food
23:18:22 <nooga> was it a goat head?
23:18:52 <oerjan> so i guess the irritation of not having to change batteries has been replaced by the irritation of possible false alarms from all the neighbors.
23:19:21 <nooga> false alarms drove me insane in edinburgh
23:19:28 <oerjan> nooga: i didn't ask. rather unlikely. it wasn't on christmas itself so probably cookies of some sort.
23:19:37 <impomatic> Has anyone tried AgonyWar? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Agony
23:19:56 <nooga> i'm glad that we don't use smoke detector in flats
23:20:11 <nooga> they're used in institutions and office buildings
23:21:37 <oerjan> nooga: i don't think goat/sheep heads are common christmas food around these parts.
23:22:37 <nooga> what about brunost?
23:23:00 <nooga> i love it on toast but it's hard to find here
23:23:49 <oerjan> but the two main christmas eve dish choices are pork rib and pinnekjøtt (salted sheep meat boiled over wooden sticks)
23:24:01 <oerjan> brunost is everyday food
23:25:16 <oerjan> of course there are a heap of other christmas dishes possible, some of which may be more common on other christmas days. lutefisk, cod, turkey...
23:26:41 <oerjan> (technically lutefisk is usually cod, but...)
23:28:22 <nooga> carp is mandatory here
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23:29:04 <nooga> and there's this annoying custom that people usually buy live carps and keep them in bathtubs
23:29:17 <nooga> and then try to kill and prepare them
23:29:32 <nooga> it usually goes horribly wrong
23:29:53 <oerjan> statistics from no.wikipedia: pork rib: about 60%, pinnekjøtt: about 33%
23:31:09 <oerjan> so i guess that's a pretty massive majority
23:33:46 <oerjan> nooga: i found a youtube link but it was disappointingly non-horrible.
23:37:03 <oerjan> oh found a proper table
23:39:15 <oerjan> pork rib: 56%, pinnekjøtt: 31%, turkey: 6%, other roasted pork: 4%, lutefisk: 2%, cod: 1%, venison: 1%
23:39:39 <oerjan> http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julemat#Norge
23:43:03 <Sgeo> "Lich's Mirror has no effect if you concede the game. If you concede, you'll lose."
23:43:09 <Sgeo> Why is that an actual ruling
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23:47:13 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83133
23:47:18 <Sgeo> How does that happen
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23:47:57 <FireFly> oerjan: hm, I take it "julbord" isn't as common in Norway, at least not on christmas eve?
23:48:03 <Sgeo> Oh, by actually having a huge library
23:48:55 <FireFly> Sgeo: wait, that isn't from one of the joke sets?
23:49:53 <FireFly> That *seems* broken to me, but I haven't played much MtG
23:49:53 <oerjan> FireFly: indeed, "julebord" is firmly associated to _pre_-christmas parties in norwegian.
23:51:38 <oerjan> in fact, the word essentially _means_ pre-christmas party. customarily with a christmas food buffet table but i don't think that's mandatory.
23:51:54 <olsner> our julbord also means the pre-christmas parties (like the kind that your office might send you on)
23:52:20 <olsner> but you also have a julbord on christmas
23:53:02 <oerjan> well we don't have it on christmas.
23:53:09 <fizzie> We've got two (smoke detectors). Actually, I think there's even some guideline that you should have one per every 60 square metres, and this place is something like 61.5.
23:53:14 <FireFly> shachaf: well, I don't remember if there's any way to somehow search the library for a card (i.e. if there are cards with such effects), but if there are it seems like it'd be easy to cause a win
23:53:54 <FireFly> Cards like "if x, you win the game" seem a bit hard to balance
23:55:30 <shachaf> I think there are cards with such effects, but you still need to draw one.
23:56:02 <shachaf> And you'll probably need quite a bit more than 200 cards, since you can only play these things on turn N.
23:56:14 <oerjan> there's also a concept of "juletrefest" mainly for the children, which can be either before or shortly after christmas. i think. i may not have been on one since i was a kid.
23:56:53 <shachaf> Unless you also have a way of putting things back into your library, I guess.
23:57:04 <oerjan> http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juletrefest
23:58:40 <oerjan> (the word literally means "christmas tree party")
00:00:24 <fizzie> "Subject: Eris is the main object, Dysnomia the small grey disk just above it." Oh, spam subject lines.
00:01:20 <oerjan> a mistake of cosmic proportions
00:01:23 <fizzie> I was hoping for something astronomical, but it's one of these spam messages I don't really "get", where the body also has just some random text and there's no attempt to actually sell/scam anything.
00:01:56 <fizzie> "While at Yale, Shevlin also developed a passion for the new sport of automobile racing. In 1891, he suffered a fall and an internal injury. In 1907, he moved to Vancouver and was also active in real estate. Another fight broke out in early spring 1915."
00:02:01 <fizzie> That's the entire contents.
00:02:18 <fizzie> Both the plaintext and HTML versions, and the HTML version hasn't got any links.
00:02:23 <ion> It’s to add noise to spam filters.
00:03:30 <fizzie> Huh. Plans within plans.
00:04:14 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=241831
00:04:30 <Sgeo> "one day i want to cancel this card. just for fun."
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00:05:55 <oerjan> ion: huh that's fiendish if true
00:06:12 <ais523> Sgeo: what if you have an "Instants cost you {1} less to play"? then it might even be the right play
00:08:17 <Taneb> Procrastination is bad and umbrellas are :(
00:13:18 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, or maybe in a game with more than two players you might also want to use Cancel on it.
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00:17:07 <zzo38> I have read about someone who had a deck with a very large number of Islands and one Battle of Wits, and managed to win with that.
00:17:41 <zzo38> I noticed I have the line ":ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer" in the same position in two IRC windows.
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00:20:44 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/ds/en/114.html
00:20:57 <Sgeo> Are there ways to fight against that other than winning fast (well, I guess 20 turns is a long time)?
00:22:28 <ais523> Sgeo: "exile target artifact" effects is the most obvious
00:22:37 <ais523> you could also use a card that removes counters
00:22:51 <ais523> or bounce it (Boomerang, etc.)
00:24:08 <kmc> "In tournaments, you must be able to shuffle your entire deck within a reasonable amount of time."
00:24:31 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/isd/en/61.html this seems awesome for fighting against miller decks
00:24:46 * coppro wonders if he can relate topological graph theory to programming languages
00:26:32 <shachaf> hmm, i guess cards like Vorel of the Hull Clade can double the jams on Darksteel Reactor
00:27:43 <zzo38> If you manage to pick Darksteel Reactor in a draft, then see if you have enough defense and counterspell then maybe it can help you to win with such a thing.
00:28:54 <zzo38> (Limited formats are the only formats I ever play; I don't like the Constructed formats.)
00:35:21 <Sgeo> I think I can actually afford to play Magic now
00:35:55 <Sgeo> Ooh, PokerTH allows spectators now
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00:45:34 <zzo38> How much money can you expect to lose on average if you play Limited formats and sell all cards you manage to get after the tournament is finished?
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00:46:15 <ais523> zzo38: that's been tested very extensively on Magic Online, the answer is "if you're a good player, you make money, so long as you're careful to normally play against people worse than yourself"
00:47:33 <Sgeo> You can sell your virtual cards on MGO?
00:47:48 <ais523> Sgeo: yeah, but only for MTGO currency
00:48:02 <ais523> however, you can then use the currency to enter more MTGO tournaments
00:48:15 <Sgeo> And I need real currency to buy MTGO currency I assume, if I don't sell cards
00:48:16 <ais523> so you end up not spending any real money, and gaining more and more MTGO currency over time
00:48:42 <zzo38> ais523: What if you play in just normal tournaments in a store or anime convention or something?
00:48:51 <Sgeo> The whole real money thing is what bothered me most about MTGO, but... I actually have money now
00:48:54 <zzo38> (Rather than being careful to pick the opponents)
00:49:08 <ais523> Sgeo: it's still really expensive, though
00:49:13 <Sgeo> zzo38: that's worse than needing real money -- you need real money AND need to take care of your cards
00:49:29 <kmc> but can you sell your virtual cards on MtGox
00:49:32 <kmc> (not anymore)
00:49:46 <Sgeo> "(not anymore)"?
00:50:12 <Sgeo> I... guess I don't know if the fun I can imagine having on MTGO is worth the cost :/
00:51:29 <ais523> I used to have enough fun playing Magic to be worth the cost, but then Lorwyn was released, and I stopped having fun
00:51:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: The cards would be sold right at the tournament though, right after it is finished, I mean; how much would you expect to lose on average?
00:51:54 <Sgeo> Don't really want to sell cards
00:52:40 <kmc> Sgeo: MtGox stands for Magic: the Gathering Online Exchange
00:52:50 <kmc> it started as a place to sell magic cards, before they got into this newfangled "Bitcoin" thing
00:53:14 <shachaf> i thought it was an online exchange for magic: the gathering
00:53:21 <shachaf> not an exchange for magic: the gathering online
00:53:25 <Sgeo> kmc is telling the truth, if Wikipedia is telling the truth
00:53:27 <zzo38> If I want to play Magic: the Gathering or something on computer, I would prefer to use different software which has open source and allows putting in your own cards and all that stuff too
00:53:31 <kmc> shachaf: i'm not sure
00:53:56 <kmc> zzo38: I used Apprentice Way Back In The Day
00:53:59 <Sgeo> zzo38: the convenience of having the software understand the meaning of the cards overrides that for me
00:54:34 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, to write a software that supports it. In fact I had ideas like that too!
00:55:08 <zzo38> That could compile card texts with various annotations into a Haskell code.
00:56:54 <shachaf> should i get a bunch of magic: the gathering cards
00:57:26 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't recommend it; you don't need any.
00:58:00 <zzo38> They will give you some when you enter, and you can sell them back afterward.
00:58:57 <shachaf> my coworkers play it a lot but in general there is no selling or buying of cards
01:00:33 <zzo38> The tournament, if you pay the entry fee they will give you three packs of cards. You can resell them immediately afterward.
01:00:44 <zzo38> Basic land cards can be borrowed for free.
01:01:23 <shachaf> is the entry fee similar to the cost of three packs of cards
01:01:38 <zzo38> Unfortunately, I don't know.
01:01:50 <ais523> shachaf: it's a bit more than the cost of three packs of cards, traditionally
01:01:57 <kmc> lol surprise there
01:01:57 <zzo38> But if you win the tournament generally you will be given an extra pack.
01:02:22 <oerjan> `run olist 937 # Sgeo already did this but HackEgo was gone
01:02:27 <Sgeo> I don't trust myself with physical cards anymore
01:02:28 <HackEgo> olist 937: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
01:02:44 <zzo38> oerjan: No! The message has to start with "`olist" deliberately.
01:02:53 <zzo38> (But it already did once, so that's OK)
01:03:20 <oerjan> zzo38: that's your interpretation.
01:03:34 <oerjan> i search for my nick, not `olist.
01:03:46 <kmc> `relcome HackEgo
01:03:49 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:03:58 <shachaf> zzo38: See, so oerjan did `run olist, so that there would only be one message starting with `olist in the logs.
01:04:04 <zzo38> oerjan: But your nick willl appear in various other messages too.
01:04:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes that is what I mentioned second time. (Also, `run allows you to add comments afterward, like is done there.)
01:04:38 <shachaf> So what oerjan did is ideal.
01:04:46 <oerjan> zzo38: of course, and i want to see those too, which is why i search for my nick.
01:05:42 <oerjan> zzo38: anyway the reason i did it now was because some nicks were not mentioned the last time. although only FireFly it seems, who saw the `olist anyway.
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01:15:19 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting
01:15:23 <HackEgo> 1158) <Taneb> Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting
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01:17:30 <Sgeo> A deck with 60 Plains would be tournament-legal, right?
01:17:51 <pikhq> It would be *bad*, but perfectly legal.
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01:19:09 <pikhq> A deck of 600 Plains would *also* be tournament legal. (assuming you can shuffle that in the time allotted)
01:25:13 <kmc> how good does the shuffle need to be
01:25:21 <kmc> indistinguishable from random by any polynomial time turing machine?
01:27:25 <pikhq> Unspecified, but given that tournaments are human-judge-governed, "enough that you don't piss the judge off".
01:29:47 <pikhq> A Plains is a Magic card. Its type is Basic Land -- Plains. It has no text.
01:30:58 <shachaf> but it has the intrinsic ability "{T}: Add {W} to your mana pool"
01:31:18 <pikhq> Yes, it has the land subtype Plains.
01:32:30 <Sgeo> Some versions have a huge {W} symbol in their text box, does that count as text?
01:33:05 <pikhq> Versions with "{T}: Add {W} to your mana pool" or some variation thereof also have no text.
01:34:10 <pikhq> Because the rules say so.
01:34:57 <pikhq> In essence, the card's printed contents say absolutely nothing about what the card's properties are.
01:35:10 <kmc> obligatory "i'd tap that"
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01:43:47 <zzo38> I think that is silly that the rules would say it has no text.
01:44:19 <zzo38> I also think other rules of Magic: the Gathering also are no good or are too klugy or other reasons.
01:45:28 <zzo38> I don't think I did actually write down a list, unfortunately.
01:45:36 <pikhq> If not it's pretty trivial to make one.
01:45:45 <zzo38> But I also think "Planeswalker" is a bad name for a card type.
01:45:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is true.
01:46:27 <pikhq> The MTG rules are really *blatantly* a kludge.
01:47:55 <zzo38> Yes, a lot, and I have a lot of idea to fix. I also hate that they removed mana burn; it is a very strategical importance. But a good thing they fixed is chaing the name of "remove from game" zone to "exile" zone; now is more sensible that part, at least.
01:48:17 <zzo38> (Since, such zone are really still part of the game.)
01:48:33 <Bike> i just want to play rummy.
01:48:41 <Bike> those cards have no text and everyone likes it that way!
01:49:00 <zzo38> Bike: OK, then play rummy. There is several different kind of rummy game, too.
01:49:11 <Bike> can i play rummy with Magic cards
01:49:30 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know. Possibly you can figure out a way.
01:49:36 <pikhq> At least things don't gain Substance anymore.
01:49:46 <zzo38> I know you can play rummy with Yomi cards though.
01:50:15 <shachaf> are you allowed to tap artifacts if they don't have an activated ability that costs {T}
01:50:29 <zzo38> shachaf: Only if something says so, I think.
01:50:35 <pikhq> shachaf: Not unless something lets you, no.
01:52:25 <shachaf> so what's with Howling Mine (<http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247316>)
01:52:50 <shachaf> is that just written that way in case something else can cause it to be tapped?
01:53:09 <Bike> isn't yomi the samurai's arrows in nethack
01:53:28 <pikhq> It is written that way explicitly so it doesn't function if something causes it to be tapped.
01:53:49 <zzo38> Bike: That isn't what I meant.
01:54:22 <pikhq> *Ah*. It's really old in part. Way back when, continuous artifacts didn't work when they became tapped for whatever reason.
01:54:33 <pikhq> The wording is to preserve that functionality.
01:54:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Howling Mine could be good to cause opponents running out of cards more fastly, I suppose, if you have ways to replenish your draw pile from your discard pile or something like that.
01:55:08 <pikhq> There are cards that cause artifacts to become tapped, FWIW.
01:55:18 <pikhq> There's even some that let you tap another artifact as a cost.
01:55:38 <pikhq> But ultimately, it's a matter of that being one heck of an old card.
01:56:46 <shachaf> when something says you may return it from your graveyard to the battlefield, does that mean that it has to have been in the battlefield in the past?
01:56:56 <shachaf> e.g. if you discard it from your hand, you can't use that ability?
01:57:04 <zzo38> shachaf: No it doesn't mean it has to be.
01:57:22 <zzo38> But if it tries to put back a Instant or Sorcery it just remains where it is, I think.
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01:58:49 <shachaf> if something gets a bunch of jams and then goes to your graveyard, scavenge will just use the printed power on it, right?
01:59:02 <kmc> printer jams?
02:00:05 <kmc> kick out the jams
02:03:15 <zzo38> I also don't like the rule that auras that are also creatures are discarded, and the rule that -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters are removed each other, and that losing due to unable to drawing a card is a state based effect rather than being immediate.
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02:17:23 <Sgeo> Oh hey MTGO finished installing
02:17:30 <Sgeo> Erm, downloading
02:19:07 <Sgeo> "Wizards of the Coast allows collectors who have assembled a full set of digital cards to exchange them for a factory set of printed cards for a $25 shipping and handling fee. Regular cards and foils cannot be mixed. Each set is eligible for a period of up to 4 years after the online release. This program was initially created in order to allay doubt and uncertainty over the investment into virtual cards"
02:19:10 <Sgeo> ....investment?
02:19:37 <Sgeo> I thought the purpose of buying the virtual cards was to have fun, not to invest
02:19:56 <kmc> whenever you want somebody to spend unreasonably much money on something useless, you call it an "investment"
02:20:11 <kmc> that's marketing 101 sgeo
02:20:44 <ais523> Sgeo: the only reason people can afford Magic cards at all in formats like Legacy is that they can sell them again afterwards and make back most of the money
02:21:04 <ais523> any viable Legacy deck costs like $2000
02:22:31 <pikhq> kmc: To be fair-ish, the cost on Legacy-viable Magic cards is rather stable.
02:23:01 <ais523> pikhq: not always, new releases can blow things up
02:23:07 <pikhq> Far better phrased as "pile of cash donated to my hobby"
02:23:11 <ais523> there was the debacle with True-Name Nemesis recently
02:23:51 <ais523> it's massively in demand for Legacy, and only available in one of five theme decks that Wizards keeps producing in equal quantities and insisting that shops buy an equal number of each
02:23:59 <ais523> leading to the other four ending up stuck on shelves
02:24:11 <Sgeo> MTGO isn't going to be too expensive for me to play casually, is it?
02:24:56 <ais523> depends on how many cards you want
02:25:14 <ais523> the way it works is, you buy tix for $1 each, tix enter you into tournaments, where you can win boosters as prizes
02:25:28 <ais523> the smallest tournaments are two-man tournaments, it's 2 tix for each player to enter
02:25:31 <ais523> and the winner gets 1 booster
02:25:36 <zzo38> Do you also get to keep drafted cards in MTGO or not?
02:25:39 <ais523> that's $4 on average for 15 cards, if you have a 50% win rate
02:25:49 <ais523> zzo38: there are two sorts of MTGO drafts, some where you keep them, some where you don't
02:26:20 <ais523> if you enter a tournament where you get to keep them, you have to supply 3 boosters to enter, or else like 12 tix if you don't have the boosters (that's $12)
02:26:28 <ais523> so one draft is going to cost you like $15
02:26:59 <ais523> there are bots that sell boosters from recent sets for like 3 and a half tix each, though
02:27:05 <ais523> (the exact price varies continuously)
02:27:33 <Sgeo> Can I just buy decks to play against randoms and friends?
02:28:54 <shachaf> i heard that you can predict which cards will be in a booster box by opening a few of the packs
02:28:59 <Sgeo> http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/digital/magiconline/img_grapeshot.png
02:29:05 <Sgeo> Each copy itself doesn't storm, does it?
02:29:20 <ais523> Sgeo: Storm is a trigger that triggers on casting
02:29:22 <ais523> the copies aren't cast
02:29:22 <shachaf> oh, you're talking about the online thing anyway. ok
02:29:26 <ais523> they're copied while they're on the stack
02:29:56 <ais523> also that would be a trivial infinite loop if they did
02:30:24 <ais523> btw, the person in charge of Magic design is insisting they're never going to do Storm again because it's been a complete balance nightmare every time they've tried
02:32:02 <Sgeo> ais523: should I install wide beta or the current version?
02:32:30 <Sgeo> ais523: also sounds like a UI nightmare, but are there other mechanics that are also UI nightmares?
02:32:31 <ais523> Sgeo: they're compatible; Wizards wants everyone to use the beta but nobody does
02:32:50 <ais523> they claim the beta's better, at least
02:32:57 <Sgeo> Almost downloaded beta by accident because it defaulted to it
02:33:10 <Sgeo> I want to wait until it's stable, but then, I used Gmail while it was in beta
02:33:15 <kmc> lololololol
02:33:25 <ais523> also, Haunt's probably the biggest UI nightmare, it's a UI nightmare even in real-life play
02:36:09 <Sgeo> Apparently MTGO doesn't work in WINE? ais523, how do you use it (assuming you do, rather than knowing everything about a game you don't play)
02:36:34 <ais523> knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies
02:36:45 <ais523> also I follow MTGO beta development, and used to watch streams of it a bunch
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02:36:59 <Sgeo> streams of development or gameplay?
02:37:22 <ais523> but nobody streams the beta, that's how I know it's unpopular
02:37:36 <ais523> the development isn't streamed, development rarely is
02:37:54 <kmc> `addquote <ais523> knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies
02:37:57 <HackEgo> 1159) <ais523> knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies
02:38:12 <ais523> kmc: seriously, it takes up like half my leisure time that isn't programming
02:38:39 <Sgeo> I kind ofdo the same with programming languages :/
02:38:46 <Sgeo> And games, except for the 'everything' bit
02:41:33 <Sgeo> I think the limitations of using macros to add continuations to languages that don't have them might mirror Haskell's continuation stuff only being available to functions that support it by producing a Cont whatever
02:43:03 <Sgeo> > (`runCont` id) $ shift (\k -> fmap map k (map return [1,2,3]))
02:43:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int
02:43:04 <lambdabot> -> ([m0 a1] -> a0 -> b0) -> [a0] -> [b0]'
02:43:04 <lambdabot> with `Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.ContT
02:43:04 <lambdabot> r0 Data.Functor.Identity.Identity r0'
02:43:04 <lambdabot> Expected type: Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont r0 r0
02:43:13 <Sgeo> I... should think about things more thoroughly
02:43:23 <Sgeo> > (`runCont` id) $ shift (\k -> fmap map k <*> (map return [1,2,3]))
02:43:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int -> [a0 -> b0] -> [[b0]]'
02:43:24 <lambdabot> with `Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.ContT
02:43:24 <lambdabot> r0 Data.Functor.Identity.Identity r0'
02:43:24 <lambdabot> Expected type: Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont r0 r0
02:43:24 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Types.Int -> [a0 -> b0] -> [[b0]]
02:43:33 <Sgeo> That doesn't count as thorough thinking
02:46:07 <Sgeo> Why does Magic Online want admin on my computer?
02:48:04 <ais523> because it's badly programmed
02:48:12 <ais523> it has a tendency to crash, including during tournaments
02:50:26 <zzo38> Those are also other reasons I wouldn't want to use such software.
02:51:12 <Sgeo> Is the beta version any better about not crashing?
02:51:33 <Sgeo> o.O LispWorks is expensive
02:51:33 <Sgeo> http://www.lispworks.com/buy/prices-1c.html
02:51:40 <Sgeo> What's the other popular commerical CL?
02:52:20 <Sgeo> Allegro I think
02:52:52 <ais523> Sgeo: I think the most infamous crashes are on the server end, so it doesn't matter what client you use for that
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03:05:34 <HackEgo> 2014-01-13.txt:03:05:24: <ais523> `log `olist 937
03:05:56 <HackEgo> 2014-01-13.txt:03:05:50: <ais523> `log > `olist 937
03:06:05 <ais523> …wait, that's possible?
03:06:19 <ais523> `log [^] ]> `olist 937
03:06:31 <HackEgo> olist 937: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
03:09:09 <oerjan> ais523: HackEgo was down when the actual `olist was attempted
03:09:25 <ais523> oerjan: don't you mean glogbot?
03:09:32 <ais523> or were they both down?
03:09:42 <ais523> well in that case the pings never happened the first time
03:10:12 <ais523> so you can't blame me for unwanted pings
03:10:50 <oerjan> however, i did it second time just because it didn't ping. _but_ i used `run olist instead of `olist because i included a comment that i knew it had already been done.
03:11:05 <shachaf> this is the third time i've been notified about this comic
03:11:25 <oerjan> zzo38: i guess i just found another argument for you for why i shouldn't use `run olist
03:11:37 <ais523> oerjan: it's like you actively want to be mispinged
03:12:37 <zzo38> oerjan: What other argument? If it has already been done and you want to add a comment that is the reason to use `run which is already known.
03:13:10 <zzo38> Or do you mean for reading the log?
03:13:21 <oerjan> zzo38: i didn't think that someone (ais523) might want to check if `olist had already been used _without_ being on the list himself
03:13:37 <zzo38> But in that case, isn't glogbackup for?
03:13:52 <ais523> zzo38: I checked by asking HackEgo if anyone had said `olist
03:14:04 <ais523> and it said no, because it wasn't around the first time, and the second time it wasn't spelled `olist
03:14:19 <oerjan> zzo38: Gregor has never made glogbackup merge in its logs properly. you may help nagging him if you want.
03:14:22 <zzo38> oerjan: O, OK, then.
03:14:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes he really should fix it please.
03:15:16 <ais523> zzo38: wow that's a confusing sentence
03:15:35 <ais523> you made a request to someone, in the third person, while pinging someone else, then added "pleae"
03:16:12 <zzo38> That is in case you can contact them too. (I already did sent a message)
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03:28:40 <copumpkin> let's say I have a .tar.xz archive. Is there some way I can add to it without having to decompress it all and recompress it?
03:28:56 <copumpkin> or something with similar compression that supports incremental addition?
03:30:49 <kmc> i don't know about xz, or tar, but you can concatenate gzip files and it's equivalent to gzipping the concatenation of the decompressed files, except bigger
03:30:52 <pikhq> Possibly, but not easily.
03:31:04 <pikhq> xz has the same property.
03:31:19 <pikhq> The trick is adding to a tar. I don't know if there's any real way to do that nicely.
03:31:26 <copumpkin> yeah, I was hoping for it to be able to reconstruct its compressor state and let me pretend I just added shit onto the end of the stream
03:31:50 <kmc> what I want is something like tar but which builds a compression-compatible index, so I can do random access
03:31:56 <kmc> maybe I should use squashfs as my archive format
03:32:18 <kmc> it would be handy to mount archives
03:32:26 <copumpkin> I have a lot of annoyingly large json files that share a lot of structure and they compress beautifully
03:32:33 <copumpkin> but I don't want to compress them all at once
03:32:42 <copumpkin> and xz achieves ridiculous ratios on them :(
03:32:50 <pikhq> Actually, is the concatenation of two tarballs a valid tarball?
03:33:24 <pikhq> It would seem "not really".
03:34:01 <kmc> copumpkin: you could stuff each one into a JSON object like {'filename': 'foo.json', 'data': ...} and then your archive format is just "sequence of json values" and you can concat .xz files
03:34:31 <copumpkin> yeah, but concatting them doesn't get me the same benefit :/
03:34:38 <pikhq> Ah, yep, tar does have an EOF marker in it, which is why it doesn't work.
03:34:41 <copumpkin> once I have enough of them, the marginal growth of adding another json file is tiny
03:34:51 <copumpkin> whereas compressing them individually grows much faster
03:34:54 <zzo38> pikhq: Presumably that is so that it works if loaded on a tape?
03:34:59 <kmc> oh i see, you want to compress it wrt the existing structure
03:35:02 <ais523> you can concat .ttyrec
03:35:11 <copumpkin> seems rather unlikely to be a common use case
03:35:20 <ais523> but it isn't a compression format, it's a video codec
03:36:49 <zzo38> You could also make the archive format just, have a null-terminated filename followed by the 32-bit length and then data of that file. Now it can easily be concatenated.
03:38:50 <kmc> zzo38: but if the data is already JSON then might as well use JSON for the container as well
03:40:23 <copumpkin> for scale, I have about 20k json files using up close to 6gb
03:40:30 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, if the data is already JSON, then that can work
03:41:15 <copumpkin> horribly redundant structure, even apart from the json noise
03:41:24 <copumpkin> (format isn't under my control unfortunately)
03:44:16 <kmc> if you have a small number of files compressed together then you can afford to recompress them all whenever you add one... and occasionally when that gets big enough you recompress it together with the next bigger chunk of files... and so forth
03:45:04 <pikhq> Ah, nice. Amortising the compressor cost.
03:46:40 <kmc> edwardk gave a talk at mozilla sf which was about some data structure which used a list of arrays whose sizes followed counting in skew binary
03:47:01 <kmc> so that you never have a cascade of carries, which here would correspond to recompressing a whole lot of data at once
03:47:02 <copumpkin> problem in this case is that at some point merging large ones will get impossibly large
03:47:17 <kmc> well you can stop at some point
03:47:40 <kmc> if you can afford to store 80MB per 20k files, then don't bother compressing chunks bigger than 20k
03:48:05 <kmc> i agree that something which can resume the compressor state would be more elegant, though
03:48:16 <kmc> but i don't know of anything like that
03:48:40 <pikhq> There's no real reason it can't be done, but yeah.
03:48:50 <kmc> perhaps you can write or hack up a compressor implementation to serialize its state at the end of the output
03:49:33 <pikhq> (at least in gzip, and presumably also in xz, the compressor state up to a point can be entirely derived from the compressed output up to that point)
03:50:55 <pikhq> The compressor may have looked ahead further, but when it's outputting the compressed text it's already output everything that depends on future text in the stream (namely, symbol frequencies for the Huffman table)
03:51:45 <pikhq> And the symbol frequencies and window are just about all of the compression state.
03:53:34 <Sgeo> shachaf: remind me tomorrow to help with Dylan
03:56:32 <Sgeo> Because, I want to help financially if possible
04:01:56 <Sgeo> Kind of annoyed that opendylan.org's https certificate is expired, want to fix tthat
04:04:32 <copumpkin> pikhq: yeah, I was hoping that already existed somewhere
04:09:34 <shachaf> @tell Sgeo 19:53 <Sgeo> shachaf: remind me tomorrow to help with Dylan
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05:20:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b0 -> t0'
05:20:31 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'Couldn't match e...
05:20:31 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
05:20:46 <oerjan> :t \x y z -> x $ y & z
05:25:19 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b0)
05:25:20 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_1'
05:25:20 <lambdabot> from the context (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr (b -> t),
05:25:20 <lambdabot> Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b)
05:25:20 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for `e_1':
05:25:48 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b0)
05:25:48 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `Debug.SimpleReflect.Vars.g'
05:25:48 <lambdabot> The type variable `b0' is ambiguous
05:25:48 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
05:25:48 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
05:25:51 <shachaf> > (f::Expr->Expr) $ (x::Expr) & (g::Expr->Expr) :: Expr
05:27:47 <oerjan> shachaf: i was really just checking if $ and & had the right fixities to be combined like that.
05:28:18 * oerjan was editing a stackoverflow answer
05:29:54 <shachaf> this one? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21084178/using-lens-in-haskell-to-modify-values
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05:30:49 <shachaf> that doesn't even give the simple answer :'(
05:30:56 <preflex> tel was last seen on #haskell 25 days, 8 hours, 15 minutes and 48 seconds ago, saying: I'd like to annotate the expression with cofree, but both Bound and cofree want to use the same variable to recurse on
05:31:19 <oerjan> shachaf: my edit was adding the simple answer, i hope
05:31:39 <oerjan> it hasn't been approved yet, though
05:31:49 <shachaf> your edits need to be approved?
05:32:08 <shachaf> can i approve edits or do you need more superpowers for that
05:32:54 <shachaf> apparently i can review suggested edits but only random ones from who knows where
05:33:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i believe i need 2000 rep to get autoapproved, only have 480 yet
05:34:20 <oerjan> made a big jump today though
05:34:34 <kmc> gameify quickly giving wrong answers to programming questions
05:35:33 <oerjan> i think this is the first time i try to edit someone else's answer, anyway
05:38:52 <shachaf> but i don't get Nu Maybe :'( what am i missing
05:39:09 <oerjan> shachaf: you need to get something fixed
05:39:35 <shachaf> for addition and multiplication and all that
05:40:15 <copumpkin> I could see multiplication being a huge pain to define in a total language
05:41:02 <shachaf> what is "correct" multiplication anyway
05:41:15 <shachaf> what's 0 * infty or infty * 0, both 0?
05:42:04 <copumpkin> the choices are all pretty arbitrary though
05:42:12 <shachaf> arbitrary things are the worst
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05:49:53 <kmc> i forgot that you can use infix operators as formal parameters
05:49:56 <kmc> that's the fuckin' best
05:51:01 <oerjan> now my question is, how do i quote that in a stackoverflow comment.
05:51:48 <oerjan> (`` is used to start and end code fragments in SO.)
05:53:19 <oklopol> "<ais523> the development isn't streamed, development rarely is" i've seen a lot of development streams? or, well, more like this is what we did this week. i guess they rarely stream the actual WHY IS THIS TURTLE SWIMMING BACKWARDS ARRRGH CORN, CORN EVERYWHERE.
05:53:53 <oerjan> shachaf: 0 * infty = 0 is standard in measure theory.
05:54:53 <oerjan> i don't think i've seen oklopol break quite that much before.
05:57:02 <oerjan> ok apparently you can use `` around code which contains `
05:57:53 <oerjan> fortunately i don't think `` is used in haskell.
05:58:01 <oklopol> oerjan: yes but that's how bad my code breaks.
05:58:41 <oerjan> mauke: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
05:58:48 * oerjan hopes that won't show up
05:59:28 <mauke> (*) `on` f = \x y -> f x * f y -- you can use `` around an identifier to infixify it
05:59:36 <mauke> now with more real
06:00:39 <kmc> {- "-}" " -}
06:00:58 <mauke> this is why nested comments aren't
06:01:17 <mauke> (haskell's aren't nested, ocaml's aren't comments)
06:04:24 <oerjan> whoops my edit was rejected
06:05:32 <mauke> http://i.imgur.com/7nsdf1g.gif
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06:08:03 <shachaf> oerjan: how does measure theory work
06:09:18 <oerjan> made a comment instead.
06:09:52 <kmc> i never measured a theory i didn't like
06:10:14 <oklopol> what's this about measure theory
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06:11:01 <copumpkin> shachaf: it doesn't! it's not very constructive
06:11:07 <copumpkin> which basically means it's all bullshit
06:11:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: things don't gotta be constructive, all right??
06:11:42 <shachaf> anyway, maybe some topological thing has an answer to what it should be like?
06:11:45 <copumpkin> constructive criticism is overrated
06:13:09 <shachaf> since the topology thing for infinity manages to behave similarly to the conatural infinity
06:13:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: how do you do topology constructively, anyway
06:14:44 <kmc> classical criticism
06:14:54 <kmc> "your painting doesn't not suck"
06:15:39 <shachaf> constructive criticism is related to classical criticism in a similar way to how constructive logic is related to classical logic
06:15:50 <shachaf> if you are constructive you tell someone how to improve a thing
06:16:02 <shachaf> otherwise you're just saying an improvement exists
06:18:38 <oklopol> what if i say you suck so bad that no one (even your mother) can improve you.
06:18:51 <oklopol> then i guess it's not even classical
06:19:21 <shachaf> well, "improve" in the sense of "there exists something better"
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06:19:48 <shachaf> you ain't the top of the lattice, kid
06:20:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: is #haskell actually much worse on average than a few years ago or am i just more irritable
06:20:26 <copumpkin> shachaf: well, my attention has dwindled in the past couple of years
06:20:44 <copumpkin> I guess I'd need specifics on what's bad, but nothing strikes me as particularly terrible
06:20:52 <copumpkin> except for you and kmc constantly complaining about it :)
06:21:23 <copumpkin> but I really barely read it anymore
06:21:28 <copumpkin> so it's quite possible it's abysmal
06:21:57 <copumpkin> would you say it's worse than other major channels?
06:22:16 <shachaf> major as in lots of people?
06:22:37 <copumpkin> feels a bit like it's diluted with time
06:22:51 <copumpkin> but most of the regulars I remember are gone
06:22:59 <kmc> i only complain intermittently
06:23:29 <copumpkin> would you say it's worse than other major channels? I'm genuinely curious to see a solid argument presenting what's bad about it
06:23:46 <copumpkin> even if you don't know how to fix it
06:23:53 <copumpkin> I don't demand that criticism be "constructive" :P
06:24:15 <kmc> that's a bullshit definition of "constructive criticism", anyway
06:24:50 <shachaf> it's probably better than a lot of major channels, but that's no excuse
06:25:25 <copumpkin> just trying to quantify how bad you see it
06:25:58 <kmc> yeah i've been in large channels with much bigger problems
06:26:15 <kmc> the problems in #haskell are a lot more subtle and that's what makes them (somewhat) interesting to talk about
06:26:22 <kmc> but I think I don't want to say very much about it right now
06:26:23 <shachaf> probably i'll just stop complaining and it'll be just as good
06:26:34 <copumpkin> kmc: fair enough, but at some point I'd still like to see it
06:27:24 <copumpkin> shachaf: well, if you can go into what you think is wrong I think that'd be helpful
06:28:24 <copumpkin> it seems a shame for you to sweep your issues with it under the rug, but also a shame to try to deal with them without getting others to agree that they're issues in the first place
06:29:08 <copumpkin> I don't know! you comment on it a lot
06:29:13 <shachaf> mostly what i do is leave the channel for a while, or recently use /ignore
06:29:26 <shachaf> my /ignore list has 59 entries now, it's great :(
06:29:45 <copumpkin> that doesn't seem optimal, assuming your long-term desire is to help it and/or improve it and/or be a part of it in some way or another
06:44:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: anyway, even addition is awkward
06:44:13 <shachaf> so i bet i'm missing something
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07:01:09 <peapodamus> shachaf Should I spam you so you have an excuse to make it an even sixty?
07:01:32 <shachaf> Well, I don't /ignore that many people in here.
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07:12:45 <kmc> if the answer is "yes", how will you ever know
07:13:03 <kmc> shachaf: do people on your ignore list ever use bots to harass you i.e. @tell shachaf
07:13:25 <zzo38> I have an assembler which allows a code section for a postprocessor, which is written in the same machine code that the rest of the program is; an emulator is included. The postprocessor code shares all symbol names with the main code, and uses the same macros, etc. Do you know of any other programs that have such a feature like this?
07:13:28 <shachaf> sometimes i take people off the list, too
07:13:53 <shachaf> it's not that they're terrible people or anything
07:14:29 <shachaf> also sometimes i look at logs
07:14:40 <kmc> what does a postprocessor do
07:14:43 <shachaf> i shouldn't be talking about this so much, anyway
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07:15:20 <zzo38> kmc: It can modify the binary before writing it out to the file; it can also specify the format of the output file, and a few other things.
07:17:54 <zzo38> I find this feature useful, whether or not other people do.
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07:20:16 <kmc> what do you use it for?
07:21:52 <zzo38> In this program I am working on now, the postprocessor fills in an identity table, fills in unused entries in a jump table (the used entries are created using macros), creates all the necessary tile variants in the pattern tables, and adds loop addresses to the music data.
07:22:38 <zzo38> In another program I have used it to output a custom header. Another purpose is compile-time debugging.
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07:32:57 <kmc> compile-time debugging? how does that work?
07:34:33 <Sgeo> "I don't get people who say this sucks because 'all it does' is give you mana... By that reasoning Basic Lands suck, good luck making a full 0 CMC deck that doesn't suck."
07:34:46 <Sgeo> A deck that uses no mana? That seems interesting
07:37:37 <ais523> Sgeo: Manaless Dredge is sometimes seen in Legacy
07:37:43 <ais523> it needs no mana, and in fact can't generate any
07:37:55 <ais523> and pretty much the only thing that interacts with it is graveyard hate
07:38:04 <ais523> it's the only deck that people choose to play second against
07:38:20 <ais523> because it literally can't do anything until it starts its engine going via discarding to maximum hand size
07:39:00 <Sgeo> https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/760 this? it looks like it can generate mana, and has a lot of mana-using cards
07:39:32 <Sgeo> I should sleep
07:42:09 <ais523> Dakmor Salvage is never actually /played/
07:42:15 <ais523> it's just there to be dredged
07:42:45 <ais523> the only cards that are actually cast are Cabal Therapy and Dread Return, using the flashback costs
07:43:00 <ais523> I guess you could play Cabal Therapy from Dakmor Salvage if you were desperate, and target yourself
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07:45:05 <ais523> most of the cards in that deck are played for from-graveyard effects
07:48:35 <Sgeo> "Play cards as written. Ignore all errata."
07:49:00 <Sgeo> What happens to interrupts?
07:49:11 <Sgeo> Or.... anything where there's been a terminology or rule change?
07:49:14 <ais523> that's considered a game rule change, so they work like instants
07:49:19 <ais523> also, http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22324_Deck_Tech_NotQuiteManaless_Dredge_With_Nicholas_Rausch.html is an explanation of that deck
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07:49:30 <Sgeo> "5/5 for turning Lotus Vale into Black Lotus"
07:50:01 <Bike> the only magic thing i care about is that combo where you make the other player rip up all their cards
07:50:35 <Sgeo> I know there's a card where you have to tear up that card to use it
07:50:45 <Bike> yeah, it's in one of the joke decks
07:50:55 <Bike> then you combine that with a duplicatey thing and a target switchy thing or suchlike
07:51:08 <ais523> Bike: it doesn't actually work
07:51:13 <Bike> you don't actually work
07:51:19 <Bike> anyway: does anyone have an idea why a half life mod won't work on linux even though half life does
07:52:02 <fizzie> Bike: Perhaps you have to tap it first.
07:52:08 <zzo38> kmc: Compile-time debugging works by such thing as having a register $200A which is for standard I/O, so you can print diagnostic messages; the postprocessor can even copy the program it is compiling into its own RAM and execute it at compile-time (although the I/O registers and memory map are different, so it might not work)
07:53:02 <zzo38> I didn't know there is decks that don't generate any mana
07:53:19 <kmc> if retrocomputing is a thing, is retrofuturecomputing also a thing, and is it what zzo38 does
07:53:48 <zzo38> "Retrofuturecomputing"? Is that a word? What exactly does it mean anyways?
07:54:26 <kmc> maybe retrofuture computing would be Plan 9 and Haiku OS
07:55:08 <zzo38> Do you make up any of your own Magic: the Gathering cards?
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07:55:31 <oklopol> i've made some card games i guess, but never mtg
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07:56:06 <oklopol> er, i don't know, crappy ones
07:56:38 <Sgeo> http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Cards/Details/UNG/69 + ignoring errata
07:57:03 <oklopol> i actually made one as a christmas present, but the rules of the game are stolen from another game (there was enough work making the actual cards)
07:57:29 <oklopol> (and by making i mean writing a short program to output pdfs and sending them to a paper company for printing)
07:57:41 <oklopol> (so actually there was very little work)
07:58:17 <oklopol> a friend of mine made a pretty nice card game, called something retarded like dork and doomed, don't recall
07:58:49 <oklopol> somewhat similar to whatsitcalled i guess
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08:00:03 <kmc> please don't use "retarded" as a pejorative
08:00:31 <Bike> fizzie: good thinking
08:01:01 <oklopol> should i not use gay either?
08:01:32 <Bike> i don't think it involves any engine modification, it's pretty much just an add on scenario. maybe half life can't deal with that w/o engine modification
08:02:25 <oklopol> (and that was voiced, and a pejorative, by the way)
08:03:54 <oklopol> like, voiced and not aspirated
08:05:19 <oklopol> i do somewhat agree with you, but i believe that's only because i do not belong to a group that has an adjective like that, and it's racist to make life decisions based on your own race
08:06:25 <oklopol> race in a very general sense
08:06:26 <Fiora> kmc: I think he's attempting the chewbacca defense?
08:06:44 <kmc> is this gonna turn into one of those "i don't even see race" conversations i.e. "if I ignore injustice it will magically go away"
08:07:05 <kmc> it's not "racist" to look at your own privilege and how you might fit into interlocking systems of oppression, on either end
08:07:28 <oklopol> it's funny to say that it is though
08:07:34 <kmc> not really
08:07:45 <kmc> maybe it's funny to you because it upsets other people?
08:07:48 <kmc> i think we have a word for that behavior
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08:08:41 <kmc> anyway you have a right to deliberately use language that upsets others, we also have a right to exclude you from our community if you do so
08:10:08 <oklopol> or does it insult stupid people?
08:11:01 <kmc> i probably wouldn't call you out on those
08:11:35 <kmc> I'm not some expert or some perfect example, the way I talk is still full of ableist language too, it's fucking pervasive
08:12:28 <kmc> but I think avoiding "retarded" is now like a pretty mainstream position, not just a thing of touchy internet social justice people like myself
08:13:44 <oklopol> but yeah it takes some effort nowadays, and perhaps i will have to learn something else some day
08:14:11 <oklopol> how bad do you consider "gay"?
08:14:23 <kmc> as a pejorative? completely unacceptable
08:14:31 <kmc> why would you even think that's okay...
08:14:59 <oklopol> because it's usually used pretty sarcastically
08:15:41 <kmc> i don't really buy that
08:15:44 <oklopol> i mean in english at lesat
08:16:30 <oklopol> perhaps i just feel that the finnish "gay" is worse because i've had the native experience with it
08:16:59 <oklopol> and okay, i completely buy that
08:17:34 <zzo38> I have made up some Magic: the Gathering cards, and also Yomi cards, Puzzle Strike cards, Pokemon cards, etc. I like the game of Pokemon card. It would be strange for "lose priority" to be a cost in a Magic: the Gathering, isn't it?
08:17:37 <Bike> 'sarcastically'?
08:18:10 <oklopol> like a kid could say that something is gay
08:18:10 <Bike> maybe thing are different outside of american high school
08:18:20 <oklopol> i don't mean calling a human gay
08:18:36 <oklopol> because wouldn't you call them a fag if you wanted to insult them
08:18:47 <Bike> if we're talking like 'man you're cheating! that's so gay!' i don't see how that's sarcastic
08:18:50 <kmc> oklopol: but they're saying it's gay as a way of saying it's bad, implying gay = bad, do I really need to spell this out for fuck's sake
08:20:14 <oklopol> i just don't really agree with the (i guess mainstream nowadays on the internet) opinion that that somehow influences how you actually feel about gays
08:20:52 <kmc> just because you don't understand the influence doesn't mean it's there
08:21:02 <oklopol> maybe it's an opposite influence
08:21:48 <oklopol> anyway i gotta go learn to drive a car
08:22:10 <kmc> anyway it's not just about *your* opinion of gay people, what about the gay kid who hears people on xbox live using "gay" as an insult constantly
08:22:13 <zzo38> I would think it improper to call "gay" in the way it often is. Sometimes homosexual people are called "gay", but apparently, it was originally due to male actors who were acting female characters in the play, so it could be used in that restricted sense.
08:22:45 <kmc> seems like that'd have some effect on making their life more painful
08:22:54 <kmc> and you're defending your decision to make their life more painful... why, exactly?
08:22:57 <kmc> what makes it so worth it to you?
08:23:16 <Fiora> "making gay people feel awful and uncomfortable? but what about my straight feelings?"
08:23:30 <oklopol> err, i wouldn't say it to someone who might take it that way?
08:23:37 <kmc> how the fuck do you know?
08:23:39 <oklopol> just like i wouldn't show my dick to a kid
08:23:52 <oklopol> by checking they're over 18
08:23:57 <kmc> oklopol: how do you know I'm not a closeted gay kid who's terrified to come out to his parents?
08:24:00 <kmc> or anyone else in this channel
08:24:22 <oklopol> i haven't used gay as an insult here, have i?
08:24:32 <Fiora> are you particularly sure that nobody in this channel is gay and being made rather uncomfortable by your attempted justifications of homophobia?
08:24:33 <oklopol> (i probably have, but not lately.)
08:24:33 <kmc> no but you're defending the practice of doing so
08:24:47 <oklopol> but i'm not defending using it here!
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08:25:07 <Bike> well that made no fucking sense at all
08:25:20 <kmc> oklopol: yeah you should probably leave
08:28:04 <fizzie> I'm tempted to paste some 'grep -i oklopol | grep -i gay' results, but I guess that'd be kinda superfluous.
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08:29:40 <fizzie> There's also an example of fungot using gay as a pejorative, which is kind of bad. Where'd you learn such language, fungot?
08:29:40 <fungot> fizzie: o(a constants) o(1)? i
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08:30:19 <fizzie> (Now *that's* a Chewbacca defense.)
08:31:42 <fizzie> Oh, I completely missed oklopol's further qualifying statement, thanks to being all grep.
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08:42:58 <kmc> I bet Fiora doesn't come back this time
08:43:17 <kmc> can't really blame her
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08:57:33 <zzo38> Cursor moving now works in the Attribute Zone editor.
08:57:52 <zzo38> (The Famicom version, specifically)
08:58:22 <Bike> what's the problem, oklopol said he wouldn't use her as an insult if she could hear it
08:59:41 <kmc> Bike: i won't use slurs as insults if it would make anyone uncomfortable, I'll just talk about how great it would be if I *could* use them until everyone who *would* be uncomfortable leaves
08:59:45 <kmc> good guy oklopol
08:59:49 <kmc> so considerate of other people's feelings
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12:16:27 <oklopol> Bike: how did it make no sense?
12:20:50 <oklopol> one very strong reason for i do not try very hard to be like you guys is that i'm strongly against this kind of ganging up on people
12:21:07 <oklopol> i don't exactly want to associate with such people too strongly
12:22:15 <oklopol> you the only group of people who bully other people openly
12:22:36 <oklopol> because you believe you are correct (which of course makes sense because you are)
12:28:40 <oklopol> (and i mean correct in your opinion, not your approach)
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13:56:50 <boily> good tarquin morning!
13:56:57 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 14h 39m 5s ago: <boily> good breakfast morning! <-- so much better than the alternatives!
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14:48:07 <FireFly> Stupid non-unicode-understanding bot :(
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14:51:08 <oklopol> i copypasted that in python and it was 0.99 sure that was EUC-JP
14:51:57 <FireFly> ü should be u with diaeresis
14:52:38 <oklopol> i mean that's how it shows on my scree
14:52:53 <FireFly> Pretty sure python is drunk
14:52:55 <oklopol> but i mean i called some sort of encoding detection function
14:55:10 <oklopol> and >>> chardet.detect("rpklp")
14:55:10 <oklopol> {'confidence': 0.99, 'encoding': 'EUC-KR'}
14:55:20 <oklopol> (disclaimer: i have no idea what this function is)
14:55:54 <FireFly> Maybe its confidence is supposed to be 1 - stated value
14:56:56 <boily> EUC-KR? has anyone ever used that one?
14:58:23 <oklopol> >>> chardet.detect("Mkkiomenahirikk.")
14:58:23 <oklopol> {'confidence': 0.87625, 'encoding': 'utf-8'}
14:59:19 <int-e> >>> chardet.detect("aaaahrg!")
15:00:49 <int-e> I can do it myself, just need to install a package. :)
15:01:08 <int-e> {'confidence': 1.0, 'encoding': 'ascii'}
15:01:36 <int-e> that's ... interesting. so 'ascii' means ASCII or anything that properly extends it ...
15:01:47 <oklopol> >>> chardet.detect("Supermummo.")
15:01:47 <oklopol> {'confidence': 1.0, 'encoding': 'ascii'}
15:03:10 <oklopol> so maybe confidence is just "i'm this confident that the input fits this encoding"
15:03:20 <int-e> haha. ä -> EUC-KR, ö -> TIS-620, ü -> EUC-JP, all with 99% confidence.
15:04:16 <int-e> (Combining them into a single string gives utf-8 with 87.625% confidence.)
15:04:44 <int-e> The guess is fine, but the 99% is ... well let's say strange.
15:07:52 <boily> oklopol is like myndzi.
15:08:02 <oklopol> and 87.625% sounds a bit low
15:12:13 <int-e> . O.o o_O \o_ O.O _o/
15:12:37 <int-e> is there a list of myndzi patterns anywhere?
15:12:40 <oklopol> can you change your nick to something with 6 letters
15:13:01 <int-e> I could, but I don't want to.
15:13:48 <oklopol> i need a myndzi compatible irc client
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15:25:25 <FireFly> oklopol: it's configurable so that it doesn't indent lines, IIRC
15:25:27 <susurrus> oklopol: there is an 'indent nicknames' option in the preferences, which you could disable.
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15:26:44 <int-e> you're welcome ;-)
15:27:09 <FireFly> That's the danger of IRCing as root.
15:27:24 <int-e> you believed that, too. yay!
15:36:42 <int-e> FireFly: I feel half bad for not having used a sandbox user :)
15:41:39 <int-e> Oh. https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/CONF-32190 *is* cute.
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15:58:27 <Bike> oklopol: if you think you don't like being "ganged up on" in that three people on the internet are complaining about what insults you use, why don't you consider what it would be like to be so fucking dehumanized by a member of a majority that your minority identity is itself used as an insult
16:03:01 <oklopol> i have no particular opinion on whether "gay" should be used as an insult, and i'm pretty sure i have never used it as a serious insult (i know you don't care, but to me there's a bit difference)
16:03:31 <oklopol> i mean don't have a strong opinion when others use it
16:03:38 <oklopol> that's none of my business
16:03:39 <Bike> don't argue you don't have an opinion after you argued about it for twenty minutes
16:04:47 <Bike> how is it not your business? it's dehumanizing and bothers people. do you not have "a strong opinion" on racial slurs either?
16:05:21 <oklopol> i don't think that's quite what i argued
16:05:43 <Bike> you just said "i don't have a strong opinion when others use it"
16:05:45 <oklopol> but yeah usually i try to argue for the minority side
16:05:51 <Bike> except for right now?
16:05:56 <Bike> because, i don't know?
16:06:13 <Bike> and normally you just love minorities but it's important to you that you can use them as insults
16:06:16 <oklopol> the minority side = people who use them as insults
16:06:22 <Bike> are you shitting me
16:06:37 <Bike> seriously, what the fuck.
16:06:51 <Bike> you're not a fucking oppressed minority because you call things "gay" as an insult.
16:06:56 <Bike> are you joking?
16:07:24 <oklopol> i mean that in a conversation, if people are arguing for x, i rarely try to defend x, i try to find arguments for !x instead
16:07:32 <oklopol> i don't mean i'm an oppressed minority
16:07:35 <coppro> if I ever design a language, I'm going to include a "feature" whereby all identifiers of the form "{$s}or" are the same as the corresponding "{$s}our"
16:07:38 <int-e> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-says-superrich-are-putupon-minority-like-homeless-people-and-irish-travellers-8946661.html
16:07:51 <Bike> wow that's so great you're a fucking robot just arguing for this on the basis i'm arguing against it
16:07:54 <int-e> (seems relevant somehow)
16:08:19 <oklopol> well i don't quite see it that way
16:08:53 <Bike> you don't seem to see much in any way, since you keep changing why you're arguing and everything else every time i rephrase it to call you a shithead
16:09:03 <int-e> coppro: you should include -ize and -ise.
16:09:10 <Bike> http://the-toast.net/2013/10/02/no-more-devils-advocate/
16:10:37 <oklopol> well i don't think i've really changed my opinion much, i don't think i really said that i consider "gay" okay
16:10:47 <Bike> for god's sake
16:11:35 <coppro> this conversation is stupid
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16:11:51 <oklopol> well i agree that i shouldn't've tried to explain to kmc why it could be okay to call someone "gay"
16:12:02 <oklopol> i should've said "i agree, stupid question"
16:12:19 <oklopol> i guess i was annoyed at him
16:12:38 <Bike> what did he say that was so annoying
16:12:49 <Bike> for 'retarded'?
16:13:00 <Bike> why is that annoying
16:13:14 <Bike> why is you being annoyed justification to use these stupid insults and defend their use
16:13:29 <int-e> I understand. Being corrected does hurt. (Sigh, isn't this channel supposed to be about esoteric *computer* languages?)
16:13:33 <oklopol> well i'm not annoyed anymore
16:13:39 <Bike> great well i am
16:14:00 <oklopol> i was annoyed at first, but yeah i do agree that i should not use that word
16:14:03 <Bike> int-e: as if anyone but ais cares about being on topic
16:14:23 <Bike> you are infuriatingly slimy
16:14:49 <oklopol> why? you basically made me agree with you?
16:15:12 <Bike> "retard" "don't do that please" "actually, [defends usage for hours]" "what the fuck" "wait i actually agreed with you the whole time"
16:18:40 <LinearInterpol> the fact that you two are arguing over the usage and etymology of a word or words saddens me.
16:20:03 <coppro> you won't like him when he's sad
16:20:11 <Bike> words are, on occasion, important. and i'll keep your sadness in mind next time i see an argument about whether python is Really A Functional Language Or Not
16:20:39 <LinearInterpol> Bike: functional as in it does something or functional as in the paradigm? because I'm debating both.
16:21:24 <Bike> as in programmers are notoriously ridiculously pedantic but when i object to a dehumanizing insult i'm just being weird
16:22:06 <LinearInterpol> if we were pedantic in our everyday speech, our annoyance factor would increase exponentially.
16:22:30 <int-e> LinearInterpol: As, indeed, it does. :)
16:22:51 <Bike> thankfully, it's really pretty rare that i feel the need to object to somebody's language, since most people are mildly empathetic enough to not curse like fourteen year olds on xbox live
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16:23:08 <LinearInterpol> if I got offended over the use of a word you didn't take offense to..
16:23:25 <Bike> depends on the word
16:24:30 <Bike> i haven't been arguing not to use 'gay' because of its history, just that people are going to feel bad when their identity is used as an insult
16:24:41 <Bike> something like 'lunatic' or whatever silly thing you're thinking of isn't really comparable
16:25:05 <Bike> it is the 21st century if you haven't noticed
16:25:34 <Bike> plus, i'm actually mentally ill, i have some position to judge what is and isn't offensive as far as the euphemism treadmill of insanity goes
16:25:45 <Bike> so you can just stop right now if you would
16:26:46 <LinearInterpol> if you are offended, then I am sorry. those who offended you should apologize and be dealt with.
16:27:12 <Bike> if you actually find 'lunatic' offensive than sure i'd stop, but it seems pretty likely that you're just using an irrelevant example for rhetoric to justify calling things gay
16:27:56 <Bike> then why are you arguing with me
16:28:30 <LinearInterpol> I'm pointing out that you and oklopol bitching back and forth about the meaning and usage of a word is counterproductive to solving you being offended.
16:28:39 <Bike> how is it counterproductive
16:28:55 <Bike> yes it does, it prevents gay people from being insulted
16:29:16 <Bike> me? no, but my friend fiora is and she was bothered enough to leave
16:29:59 <mrhmouse> I don't think that arguing will ever prevent anything.
16:30:14 <mrhmouse> (and I don't think #esoteric is the place for it, unless it's about esolangs)
16:30:47 <int-e> mrhmouse: "poltiically correct english" seems esoteric enough ;-) (sorry, could not resist.)
16:31:17 <Bike> arguing about anything is pointless, knowledge is impossible, opinions are inbuilt into people and unchangeable
16:31:43 * int-e bows to Bike's superior wisdom and shuts up.
16:32:01 <Bike> what does that mean
16:32:12 <LinearInterpol> means find a way to make you happy when you're offended. :P
16:33:12 <LinearInterpol> arguing is like target practice, only you're not shooting for the bullseye, you're shooting for a mountain that's completely out of the way, and none of your arrows/bullets will ever reach it, and even if they do, you'll never see it.
16:33:22 <Bike> i have come up with a solution, which is to tell people that they're being offensive, and then about half the time they'll stop because it isn't really a big deal for them, and the other half of the time i'll argue with them for hours and learn that in this situation only argument is impossible and pointless and i'm just being excessively pedantic
16:33:26 * mrhmouse admirs the zen of LinearInterpol
16:33:36 <oklopol> can we just shut up, i already admitted i was wrong (in pm, to Bike, at least).
16:34:08 <oklopol> i have been saying years that i'm an asshole and asked why i'm never called out on it
16:34:13 <int-e> . o O ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y )
16:34:14 <oklopol> now i was called out on it
16:34:20 <oklopol> and i will do something about it.
16:34:34 <oklopol> so yeah, about those esolangs.
16:34:52 <Bike> sorry oklopol, argument is pointless, you have to be an asshole since you were born that way
16:36:53 <mrhmouse> I can't have alcohol; is there an alcohol-free substitute?
16:37:42 <mrhmouse> 99 bottles of $PREFERREDBEVERAGE on the wall, 99 bottles of ${PREFERREDBEVERAGE}...
16:37:48 <int-e> (Isn't it funny how a "drink" tends to be alcoholic...)
16:39:28 <b_jonas> take one down, pass it around,
16:39:53 <b_jonas> 98 bottles of $PREFERREDBEVERAGE on the wall.
16:40:13 <b_jonas> btw, I recommend to call it $REFRESHINGBEVERAGE instead
16:40:27 <mrhmouse> isn't that copyrighted by Coca-Cola?
16:40:51 <mrhmouse> Nevermind, that's "the drink that refreshes" I think...
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16:41:50 <Bike> still can't believe those actually exist
16:42:51 <int-e> (I'm living in one of those privileged countries where tap water is actually drinkable.)
16:42:51 <Bike> well, you can copyright them, people just pirate the shit out of them or use ones old enough to be public domain
16:42:54 <Bike> much like jazz
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16:44:19 <mrhmouse> (Me too, technically. I don't recommend it.)
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16:53:29 <boily> I'm so far up North that I'm at Canada.
16:59:00 <boily> how's the weather in your southernorth?
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17:40:31 <metasepia> EFHK 131720Z 32007KT CAVOK M13/M16 Q1014 NOSIG
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17:44:05 <metasepia> KBGR 131653Z 18008KT 10SM FEW200 06/M05 A2999 RMK AO2 PRESFR SLP157 T00611050
17:51:50 <fizzie> Here they keep doing those water quality lab tests, and the tap water keeps beating the commercial bottled options.
17:54:03 <fizzie> (Though apparently that's just because of chlorination and not sitting in storage for ages &c.)
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18:00:21 <kmc> oklopol: dude it's not "bullying" or "ganging up" to politely mention to someone when they have (often unintentionally) hurt someone
18:00:34 <kmc> people often respond with "oh i'm sorry" and then go on with their fucking lives
18:00:39 <kmc> people who are not you, that is
18:02:19 <FireFly> I just got an idea for IOCCC. I guess I'll have to try to remember it for half a year
18:02:41 <kmc> LinearInterpol: the point of "arguing about words" is that words shape the entire fucking world we live in
18:02:57 <LinearInterpol> oh for the love of.. we just stopped this man, don't bring it back up. :\
18:02:57 <kmc> it's totally disingenuous to say "you're just arguing about words!!!" when we are arguing about how human beings should treat other human beings
18:03:28 <kmc> and especially, about how human beings in a position of social dominance should treat human beings who are historically oppressed, often to the point of lethal violence
18:03:58 <LinearInterpol> look, all I was trying to say is that arguing is pointless, and that those two should get down to solving the problem of being offended with something akin to an apology.
18:04:25 <kmc> well I agree that arguing with oklopol is pointless
18:04:39 <kmc> I have actually changed people's minds with discussion in the past, and I've definitely had my mind changed
18:04:48 <kmc> I used to be a lot worse about this stuff!!
18:04:59 <kmc> we all learn from each other and get better
18:05:25 <kmc> I agree that by the time "discussion" progresses to "arguing" it's often of negative net value
18:05:34 <zzo38> If you have things to say, you can say it, but yes it is a good idea to try to learn better, instead.
18:05:39 <LinearInterpol> being offended essentially means that someone essentially took something from you, and you want something equivalent in return that'll make you happy again.
18:05:51 <kmc> I don't agree with that
18:06:23 <kmc> it sounds like you are more interested in smoothing things over than in making our community more kind
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18:06:50 <kmc> no it really doesn't
18:07:14 <kmc> "making everyone happy" usually means making people in a position of power happy and making marginalized people decide to stay quiet
18:07:17 <kmc> i.e. continuing the status quo
18:07:20 -!- LinearInterpol has left ("Hack the planet.").
18:08:01 <kmc> god forbid we should have a channel that's 99.5% straight white men instead of 100%
18:09:43 <zzo38> It shouldn't matter if the channel is 99.5% or 100% straight white men; it is a completely irrelevant situation! If it ends up being 45% then that should be OK too, but if it ends up being something like 263% or -10% then clearly we have a problem, isn't it?
18:09:56 <kmc> zzo38 you are the best
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18:10:03 <kmc> wb LinearInterpol
18:10:11 * boily hands LinearInterpol a zzo38
18:10:43 <elliott> you sure ragequit and never came back over that drama
18:10:52 <elliott> for a whole two minutes and thirty-eight seconds
18:11:24 <Bike> arguing is fundamentally irrational and since nobody actually has a serious problem it won't last,, see
18:11:32 <zzo38> I don't actually know about QUIT, but there was PART.
18:11:51 <zzo38> LinearInterpol: How hard is the wood in your desk?
18:12:08 <kmc> LinearInterpol: well I'm rapidly running out of fucks to give... if this is the kind of community y'all want to have then who am I to fight it
18:12:23 <zzo38> Hard enough to break your head?
18:12:31 <Bike> assumptions based on what you are literally saying
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18:16:05 <Bike> thanks mrhmouse, really feeling welcome here
18:17:10 <oklopol> "<kmc> well I agree that arguing with oklopol is pointless" i'm not sure what you guys actually want, i agree that i was wrong, why is that not enough?
18:17:23 <int-e> ow, why does 'hg grep' consider the whole history of files by default ...
18:17:34 <kmc> oklopol: nah, i'm done, thanks though
18:17:35 <zzo38> If it gets muted like that, post your message on #esoteric#shadow and then it will remain logged too
18:17:47 <zzo38> iint-e: I don't know.
18:18:01 <ion> Was there a reason for +q *!*@* instead of +m or was it just an arbitrary choice?
18:18:05 <zzo38> Can you tell it not to consider the whole history of files?
18:21:31 <boily> meanwhile, https://github.com/Katee/quietnet doesn't work as well as thought.
18:24:13 <zzo38> ion: I wanted to know too, but now there is work-around regardless which way is done
18:24:56 <int-e> (So hg grep does not do what I expected it to do. Fine. Back to grep -r then.)
18:26:39 <kmc> oklopol: I missed your most clear admission that you were wrong, above
18:26:51 <kmc> thanks for admitting it :)
18:29:30 <int-e> boily: what's the use case for such a program, besides exfiltrating data to nearby servers?
18:30:21 <boily> int-e: no idea. the novelty is tempting, if only for a few minutes of relaxation between to tickets.
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18:34:07 <int-e> (I understand that the NSA has various technologies for bridging air gaps. Sound would be a fairly obvious choice.)
18:39:05 <boily> the POC uses PSK31. seems it needs two very close machines, with good quality audio equipment, and a noiseless environment for it to work reliably.
18:40:07 <boily> so, bridging the air is very unlikely, unless the NSA uses Secret Mutant Waves with Exceptional Compression. probably something tachyon based.
18:40:39 <FireFly> You never know with the NSA
18:42:46 <fizzie> How about that acoustic sidechannel thing? They got p. impressive results out of it, and that was just listening to the sounds of OpenSSL; it sounds rather likely that, with some active help from the server you're listening to, you could get better. (I mean, it doesn't have to be near ultrasound, it can be just some acoustic steganography.)
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18:45:15 <boily> if it's acoustic classification, with a constricted domain, that has already been proved with very interesting experiments.
18:45:27 <fizzie> http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/acoustic/ "plain mobile phone placed next to the computer, or a more sensitive microphone placed 4 meters away" next server at a colo place doesn't sound entirely infeasible.
18:46:06 <fizzie> I guess those maybe don't come with microphones.
18:47:39 <fizzie> The keyboard-keys-from-typing-sounds one was funky too.
18:48:28 <boily> the one were they went into a medical clinic and gleaned off plenty of private informations :D
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18:49:31 <zzo38> At one time I could tell from the noise if the CPU is busy; I replaced the power supply now though.
18:50:04 <zzo38> With proper soundproofing/filters can you avoid this?
18:50:14 <fizzie> I can tell from the noise if the CPU is busy; but that's just the fans spinning up in response to more heat.
18:50:28 <boily> can you put a tinfoil hat on your desktop?
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18:51:14 <fizzie> "Conversely, a sufficiently strong wide-band noise source can mask the informative signals, though ergonomic concerns may render this unattractive." (Countermeasures section of the Q&A-format summary.)
18:51:39 <fizzie> "Why does your computer sound like a jet engine taking off?" "Oh, I'm just foiling NSA here."
18:51:47 <boily> “strong wideband noise source,” aka. “your cow orker's radio”
18:52:07 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, I suppose the fans too, but I wasn't talking about fans.
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19:02:42 <FireFly> That reminds me of this "BadBIOS" thing from last year
19:03:02 <FireFly> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/meet-badbios-the-mysterious-mac-and-pc-malware-that-jumps-airgaps/
19:05:01 <boily> so, what's the verdict on that? is it really real, or just an overhyped simili-scam?
19:06:03 <int-e> Signs point towards "real" (see NSA toy catalogue) but I have not seen any final verdict. (Then again I have not really been paying attention.)
19:07:08 <FireFly> People who I trust when it comes to security-related questions seem to believe it's real, anyway, but I haven't been paying much attention either
19:07:13 <int-e> And I'm not saying that this was the NSA, just that such technology does exist. It still sounds quite wild. At least USB thumb drives are a plausible attack vector.
19:08:25 <Bike> i didn't think bios/uefi-eating malware was uncommon
19:08:44 <kmc> remember also that the NSA catalog is 7 years old
19:09:24 <int-e> Bike: it's the detail that this one bridges airgaps that makes it so interesting.
19:09:56 <Bike> sure, the article just makes bios-eating sound uncommon in itself
19:10:33 <int-e> The main thing is that we don't have tools for finding such malware. It could be in any of the busmaster capable hardware devices, virtually all of which have their own firmware.
19:10:49 <kmc> throw your computer into a river
19:11:08 <Bike> computer proceeds to vibrate at a particular frequency, thus infecting the entire river
19:11:14 <zzo38> Don't trust a computer you cannot throw out of the window directly into the river.
19:11:29 <int-e> we all know that it takes a steel foundry to really destroy malware.
19:12:05 <boily> is the St-Lawrence River good enough? it's long, it's large, it has fish.
19:12:16 <Bike> fish are a notorious attack vector
19:12:28 <Taneb> There's a church of St Lawrence along the road from me
19:13:32 <Bike> when dna computing based storage drives incorporated as your appendix become common y'all are fucked, imma gonna attack that shit
19:14:25 <boily> don't you dare append me, you vile scoundrel!
19:14:58 <Bike> but don't you see, boily... the appendix was in you all along
19:15:24 <boily> noooooooo! betrayed by my own body! damn you, internal organs and various tidbits!
19:15:31 <kmc> maybe we need to replace our airgaps with vacuum gaps
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19:17:21 <Bike> http://natsec.newamerica.net/nsa/analysis coo
19:19:18 <kmc> it seems like these days, one should always guess UTF-8 if the input is valid UTF-8
19:19:44 <kmc> how often will real world EUC-KR text happen to be valid UTF-8?
19:24:38 <FireFly> Well, I guess it's fair to guess ASCII if the input is also valid ASCII in addition to being valid UTF-8
19:25:16 <kmc> it depends on the purpose for which you're making a guess
19:26:01 <kmc> for most purposes i would rather guess UTF-8 because then you have *some* chance of handling high-bit bytes correctly
19:26:23 <kmc> also because there is no code but Unicode and UTF-8 is its transport
19:27:55 <Bike> oh, shit. fish have a disease called 'whirling disease'. that owns
19:28:09 <Bike> «Fish "whirl" forward in an awkward, corkscrew-like pattern instead of swimming normally, find feeding difficult, and are more vulnerable to predators.»
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19:28:20 <Bike> my computer virus is also a nematode
19:29:50 <Bike> i guess it would be more appropriate for it to be a computer /worm/, huh.
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19:32:22 <int-e> libchardet is a bit naive when it comes to probabilities. As far as I can make out, "ä" encodes an empty string; it's merely a "shift" token that switches a decoder into EU-KR mode.
19:35:45 <int-e> and s/lib//; libchardet is a C++ thingy while I looked at the chardet Python thingy.
19:37:56 <int-e> Then again, by the looks of it, one of them is a direct port of the other.
19:39:05 <int-e> # Mark Pilgrim - port to Python
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19:46:33 <boily> how much effort woul be needed to unnaïvify chardet?
19:47:53 <shachaf> you know the thing where people say things that you more or less agree with, but they're so annoying about it that you feel bad about having an opinion similar to theirs
19:49:33 <kmc> do you have an example?
19:50:25 <shachaf> probably rude and pointless to name anyone in particular
19:50:51 <shachaf> maybe past versions of myself. what an obnoxious person :(
19:58:29 <int-e> boily: I don't know. For UTF-8, it takes 1 - (0.495)^n as the probability if only 0 < n < 6, where n is the number of characters (well, code points) parsed. That looks very ad hoc. For EUC-KR, it somehow uses character frequencies, but I have not figured out the details. So I don't know whether all those "confidences" are comparible. What's missing as well, I think, is some reasonable a priory distribution of character...
19:58:35 <int-e> ...encodings, so that Bayes' theorem can be applied.
20:02:17 <kmc> how about the universal prior
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20:04:25 <boily> int-e: the unnaïvification is untrivial, eh?
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20:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/short-talk-about-richard-feynman/
20:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> wolfram pushes boundaries of scraping the bottom of the barrel, makes breakthrough
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20:32:09 <Bike> "a priory", i like that
20:32:35 <Bike> makes me imagine a bunch of nuns hard at work doing math
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20:39:45 <boily> "In agro, in mathematica analysis complexam, certis de quavis ratione lineam moduli totum integrale est in complexu per vias plano."
20:40:08 <Bike> 'the quickest way to the reals is through the complex plane'?
20:41:57 <boily> who am I to question the Ways of our Complex Plane?
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21:24:21 <boily> callforjudgement: I like your hobbies.
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21:28:20 <kmc> really don't feel comfortable here anymore :/
21:30:34 <ais523> kmc: I left #esoteric a while back because it was no longer talking about esoprogramming
21:30:39 <ais523> and I don't really feel comfortable in social channels
21:30:49 <ais523> I put it back on autojoin, though, hoping that it had got better
21:31:45 <kmc> if i leave it might solve both of our problems
21:33:21 <ais523> kmc: you aren't really contributing to the problem, from my point of view
21:33:39 <ais523> except inasmuch as any channel with more than like 3 people is going to have differing opinions on what are and aren't acceptable offtopic subjects
21:34:31 <kmc> i'm mostly upset because we seem to value avoiding "drama" more than standing up to bigots
21:35:06 <ais523> I missed whatever it is that happened
21:35:29 <ais523> I feel that the best option, when possible, is to avoid giving people a chance to be bigoted in the first place
21:35:37 <ais523> but sadly you can't really do that with lax topicality rules
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21:36:51 <kmc> i asked oklopol not to use "retarded" as a pejorative and his response was to start defending the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative, even though he admits it's wrong, because he wanted to annoy me for being a "bully"
21:37:01 <kmc> that's something which could easily come up in discussion of esolangs
21:37:10 <kmc> for example if i call someone's esolang "retarded"
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21:37:28 <ais523> the channel used to be a lot /worse/ in that respect, actually
21:37:40 <ais523> but most of the offenders just left naturally
21:37:41 <kmc> yeah, i've heard
21:38:43 <ais523> I would prefer it if people just used accuracy in their pejoratives
21:39:17 <ais523> something like "stupid" would be fine, IMO, but saying "retarded" just creates confusion while offending people at the same time, which seems strictly worse
21:40:26 <kmc> i'm frustrated less by oklopol (who admitted in the end he was wrong) and more by all the other people who were like "ugh DRAMA" or "you're just arguing about words", as though how we treat each other isn't important
21:40:58 <Taneb> kmc, if I was one of the annoying people I'm sorry
21:41:06 <kmc> Taneb: I didn't observe you to say anything at all, but thank you
21:41:47 <Taneb> Also, on a completely different and probably more on topic note, I am still trying to see if I can get an audience in front of which I can create an esolang live
21:41:52 <ais523> I have problems moderating small-ish channels like this, I'm more used trying to moderate a channel with 1000+ users without having mod powers
21:42:02 <kmc> that sounds hellish
21:42:14 <ais523> when you can normally assume that there will be some trolls/troublemakers who will try to make things worse no matter what
21:42:27 <ais523> my normal approach is to attempt to drown them out, which involves making a distraction
21:42:40 <ais523> all this doesn't actually work in #esoteric, but I normally attempt it anyway because habit
21:42:41 <Bike> Taneb: target IBNIZ for extra nerd cred
21:43:16 <ais523> Taneb: create an esolang, as in spec? interp?
21:44:42 <nys> hey hey guys i have an idea for an esolang
21:45:24 <nys> alright so the idea of languages like iota and jot and SK is to make the smallest number of primitives that you can construct everything else from, right?
21:45:42 <ais523> nys: yes, functionally
21:46:33 <nys> what if the goal was instead to find a relatively small set of combinators that you could transform practical algorithms into compactly
21:46:44 <ais523> nys: that's where SKI come from
21:46:51 <kmc> sounds like golfscript
21:46:52 <nys> SKI isn't compact though
21:46:53 <ais523> although it's not that compact
21:47:18 <ais523> the concatenative languages aim for practical combinators, often
21:47:29 <ais523> something like Underlambda, which is unfinished, from the eso side
21:47:32 <ais523> or Joy from the non-eso side
21:47:56 <Taneb> ais523, how is Underlambda going, by the way
21:47:58 <ais523> even Underload's combinators aren't too bad ( (), ^ and : are Turing-complete by themselves, the rest are basically just there to allow you to approach a sensible coding style)
21:48:05 <ais523> Taneb: I haven't worked on it for a while
21:48:16 <ais523> especially now that type system design (and thus language design) is my day job
21:48:22 <nys> i was thinking of searching exhaustively through the possible combinators for a particular program
21:48:34 <Bike> that takes a lotta time
21:48:40 <Bike> even for very basic programs
21:48:50 <ais523> also it's impossible in general, you provably can't compare functions in general
21:49:00 <ais523> although you can in many practically useful special cases
21:49:16 <Bike> see http://blog.regehr.org/archives/923
21:49:31 <Taneb> ais523, oh? Where/on what are you working?
21:49:32 <Bike> i've only read the original paper tho
21:49:51 <ais523> Taneb: Birmingham University
21:50:00 <ais523> *University of Birmingham
21:50:52 <ais523> actually, the "you can't compare functions" thing came up just a couple of days ago
21:51:17 <ais523> circuit equivalence is decidable
21:51:30 <ais523> thus, any language without decidable equivalence obviously is unsuitable for compilation into hardware
21:51:46 <ais523> which is a really nice quick sanity check for rejecting possible type systems
21:53:47 <ais523> digital circuit equivalence, that is
21:54:03 <ais523> I'm not sure about analog, it probably is too but real numbers screw things up
21:54:27 <ais523> one method that's inefficient but works is to convert the entire thing to a state machine
21:54:29 <nys> this is a world i was not aware of until just now
21:55:17 <nys> well if you have a function that just takes in an inductively defined datatype, aren't there only so many cases to prove equivalent results for?
21:55:44 <ais523> nys: well one thing you can do is restrict the types of loops, by requiring all loops to be bounded in advance
21:55:51 <ais523> e.g. by the size of the data type you passed in
21:56:06 <ais523> if you do that, you have a "primitive recursive" function, equivalence is decidable for those
21:56:20 <ais523> but nonetheless, a lot of practical programs work with primitive recursive functions only
21:56:29 <nys> is Y one of those?
21:56:46 <ais523> no, Y can't be done with primitive recursion only, it needs general recursion
21:57:28 <ais523> actually the point of the Y combinator is to show that untyped lambda calculus supports general recursion without the need for extra combinators/constants
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21:57:46 <nys> this problem is starting to not sound like a good match for an untyped kinda system :D
21:58:06 <ais523> (btw, the Y combinator is a specific implementation of a fixed-point combinator; normally people use "fix" if referring to fixed-point combinators in general)
21:58:42 <nys> i'm spotty in general
21:59:00 <ais523> sort-of like the difference between a fast fourier transform and a discrete fourier transform
21:59:50 <Taneb> I have a 9:30 practical in the morning :(
21:59:51 <kmc> also there are two different Y combinators, one for strict (call-by-value) semantics and one for non-strict (call-by-name)
21:59:58 <kmc> Taneb: that's not a very practical time is it
22:00:13 <Taneb> kmc, it means I have to get up earlier
22:00:24 <Taneb> Oh wait that was a funny
22:00:33 <nys> wow i didn't know the distinction between fft and dft until now either
22:00:50 <ais523> kmc: wow, that's such a weird way of looking at the difference between call-by-value and call-by-name
22:00:59 <ais523> I'm rather skewed on this because I work almost exclusively with call-by-name
22:01:26 <ais523> and see call-by-value as sugar for creating an assignable variable and initializing it with your function argument
22:02:06 <kmc> in a system where assignment forces evaluation?
22:03:23 <ais523> actually it's the only way to force evaluation atm, apart from the FFI
22:03:38 <ais523> and the while statement
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22:04:04 <nys> speaking of which have you heard of that thing showing how you convert an evaluator into an abstract machine or back?
22:04:22 <Bike> futumura projections?
22:04:25 <kmc> most languages also have strict arithmetic because they want to use machine arithmetic
22:04:30 <kmc> but it's not the only way to do arithmetic
22:05:02 <ais523> kmc: the implementation we're working on is a bit weird, we use hardcoded connections between circuits
22:05:34 <ais523> which basically means that we can't have any values more complex than integers
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22:10:29 <ais523> we have a paper where we implemented a recursive Fibonacci on this thing
22:11:02 <ais523> it's even less efficient than the normal recursive Fibonacci because it has to go and subtract all the 1s from the argument over and over again
22:11:44 <ais523> we managed to get it published anyway though
22:12:02 <kmc> i like that recursive fib is an example of an algorithm where computing f(n) takes f(n) steps
22:12:07 <ais523> http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/icfp11.pdf
22:12:16 <Bike> kmc: isn't that connected to euclid's algorithm somehow
22:12:31 <Bike> or maybe just the golden ratio. it's e-y
22:12:54 <kmc> the closed form formula for fib(n) uses φ yeah
22:13:04 <ais523> kmc: isn't that true of pretty much any algorithm that just forms numbers via adding up 1s?
22:13:15 <kmc> sounds like it
22:13:23 <Taneb> Doesn't f(n+1)/f(n) approach phi in the limit?
22:13:49 <ais523> this is because φ²=φ+1
22:14:00 <Bike> well i mean, i know that, i'm trying to remember if this is connected to the time complexity bit
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22:14:43 <Bike> i have half a blog post written about learning linear algebra via one of the less stupid fib algorithms
22:15:01 <kmc> > let fibs = fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) in (fibs !! 1000) / (fibs !! 999)
22:15:06 <ais523> the stupid one is one of the better recursion benchmarks, though
22:15:24 <kmc> > (1 + sqrt 5) / 2
22:15:34 <kmc> wow pretty close
22:15:42 <Bike> does that converge slow?
22:15:46 <Bike> like the rational approximations do
22:16:38 <Taneb> I don't actually know how fast convergences generally are
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22:17:19 <Bike> well, like, the contfrac for phi is 1/(1+1/(1+1/...)) and that gives the best rational approximations
22:17:22 <Bike> however, they all suck
22:17:33 <boily> ~eval 1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / 1)))
22:17:38 <boily> ~eval 1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / 1)))
22:17:58 <kmc> > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1
22:17:59 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,1.5,1.6666666666666665,1.6,1.625,1.6153846153846154,1.6190476190476...
22:18:09 <boily> hey, two significative numbers is pretty good in my book.
22:18:12 <kmc> i like how it goes up and down
22:19:38 <ais523> oh, the other thing I liked in that paper, was that I got to use Algol 60 for a serious reason, even though it was 2011
22:20:37 <ais523> my supervisor was surprised that I managed to get hold of a working Algol 60 compiler after this long
22:20:48 <Bike> let's see, the square root of two is [1;1,2,1,2,1,2,...] i think, how do you haskell that
22:21:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
22:21:03 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M60779866017779691048889.show_M60779866017779691048...
22:21:03 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
22:21:03 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
22:21:03 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
22:21:07 <Bike> er no it's [1;2,2,2,2] maybe
22:21:20 <Bike> except with a bajillion 2's obv
22:21:26 <ais523> lambdabot: that's a really useless error message
22:21:32 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2...
22:21:38 <Taneb> > let f x = 2 + 1/x in iterate f 1
22:21:39 <lambdabot> [1.0,3.0,2.3333333333333335,2.4285714285714284,2.411764705882353,2.414634146...
22:21:55 <ais523> the problem being that lambdabot had enough definitions floating around that it could somehow concatenate an int to a list?
22:22:14 <shachaf> > map (\x -> 1 + 1 / x) $ iterate (\x -> 2 + 1 / x) 1
22:22:15 <lambdabot> [2.0,1.3333333333333333,1.4285714285714286,1.411764705882353,1.4146341463414...
22:23:03 <Bike> see, those are p. good
22:23:39 <FireFly> > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1 !! 1e6
22:23:40 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
22:23:40 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Real.Fractional a)
22:23:40 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: GHC.Real.Fractional a => a
22:23:45 <FireFly> > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1 !! 1000000
22:24:58 <shachaf> > let sums = map (foldr (\x y -> x + 1 / y) 1) . inits in sums (1 : repeat 2)
22:24:59 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,1.3333333333333333,1.4285714285714286,1.411764705882353,1.414634146...
22:25:28 <shachaf> @let sums = map (foldr (\x y -> x + 1 / y) 1) . inits
22:25:39 <Bike> > sums (1 : cycle [1,2])
22:25:41 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,1.5,1.75,1.7142857142857144,1.7333333333333334,1.7307692307692308,1...
22:26:12 <jconn> FireFly: 1 2 1.5 1.66667 1.6 1.625 1.61538 1.61905 1.61765 1.61818
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22:27:00 <Bike> > let convergents = sums
22:27:01 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let convergents = sums'
22:27:08 <Bike> @let convergents = sums
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22:27:51 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_letters_used_in_mathematics_and_science this is great
22:28:45 <FireFly> Isn't there another similar list somewhere?
22:29:07 <shachaf> Bike: now you gotta turn it into a song
22:29:17 <Bike> i'm no lehrer.
22:29:19 <kmc> i also saw Ш used for a pulse train i.e. a function f(x) which takes on the value 1 on a set of measure zero and 0 elsewhere
22:29:34 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_letters_used_in_mathematics
22:30:30 <kmc> probably arabic letters have been used in algebra
22:30:35 <kmc> but i'm not sure
22:30:40 <shachaf> what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxcar_function
22:30:41 <kmc> maybe they used greek out of Tradition
22:31:18 <Bike> i don't think algebra was symbolic enough during the persian period
22:31:31 <Bike> they'd write out "a quantity divided by four" or wetf
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22:32:23 <kmc> (oh was it from persia and not arabia? same script i guess, anyway)
22:32:45 <Bike> better than hindustan though, where they'd write it out in verse
22:32:48 <Bike> how's that for eso
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22:33:53 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/db46eea7c7b668193a6a7dbf4e9f636b/tumblr_mzbi1t3gol1rb9lj8o1_1280.png in doge news
22:36:27 <kmc> is that ''real''
22:37:06 <shachaf> i read one of the three books you gave me to read
22:39:36 <Bike> were the other two also illuminatus
22:40:20 <shachaf> but somehow starting the second one is more effort than continuing to a new chapter
22:41:07 <Bike> my illuminatus copy has all three in one, very convenient
22:42:22 <kmc> "India is marking three years since its last reported polio case, a landmark in the global battle against the disease."
22:42:39 <Bike> isn't it still bad in... pakistan? i wanna say pakistan
22:43:05 <Bike> afghanistan, nigeria, and pakistan
22:43:12 <olsner> I'd sort of guess some "first world" country getting polio back due to vaccination paranoia
22:43:53 <Bike> well, you need to have some extant polio for that, and it's pretty totally eradicated in many countries
22:44:25 <kmc> yeah I think we're a long way from that still
22:44:55 <kmc> there are other disases already coming back for that reason, though :/
22:45:20 <Bike> the cdc says that there hasn't been a polio case in the US since 1979
22:45:37 <Bike> i don't think the virus sticks around in animals and stuff like, say, plague, which is still extant in the US
22:47:01 <Bike> " Poliovirus is however strictly a human pathogen, and does not naturally infect any other species" yeah
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22:56:00 <kmc> that's convenient
22:58:01 <Bike> of course, HIV is the same way, and that's been kind of hard to eradicate >_>
23:00:53 <kmc> yeah well at least it can't be spread through contaminated food or water
23:01:55 <kmc> eradicating polio in Pakistan is harder because the Taliban keeps killing the medical workers
23:02:08 <oerjan> Bike: well i suspect some apes may be included too. but they're probably not a major infection source at this time.
23:03:15 <oerjan> also, you've missed syria; polio has reappeared there during the war.
23:03:38 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:04:25 <Bike_> oerjan: HIV is a mutant of the one that infects chimps
23:04:37 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:04:44 <Bike_> oerjan: and yeah i heard about that, i was just glancing at a WHO page. i don't think it's actually epidemic there though? just like, a problem
23:04:47 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:07:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> of course, HIV is the same way, and that's been kind of hard to eradicate >_>
23:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> vaccination means you can eliminate transmission in the human population, not being a zoonosis means there aren't any animal reservoirs to pop up after the vaccination passes over
23:08:46 <Bike> yeah, i was just thinking of zoonosis
23:09:03 <Bike> i wanted to come up with an example that was actually a virus, i mean plague is bacteria, or somethin
23:09:43 <olsner> pig flu, bird flu, zebra flu, etc
23:10:28 <Bike> well those are species-specific too, they just mutate
23:10:37 <Bike> there are virusy things that infect viruses, i think. weird shit
23:11:51 <oerjan> what's the current hip recursion meme, i think yo dawg and inception have both gone stale
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23:12:37 <shachaf> maybe we don't need another one
23:12:45 <Bike> also stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid
23:12:46 <kmc> there's some liquid water in my kitchen at 120°C
23:12:53 <oerjan> maybe we can make it a meme that recursion memes have gone stale
23:12:56 <Bike> my chemistry textbook described viruses as "large molecules" which kind of rules
23:13:04 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yo dawg i heard you like recursion memes
23:15:49 * oerjan suddenly imagines little nanobot drones flying around vaccinating wild birds against flu
23:16:23 <oerjan> i suppose micro or milli may also do
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23:17:00 <oerjan> they could look like mosquitos, and handle malaria at the same time
23:17:40 <Jafet> Eradicate mosquitoes by 2050
23:17:43 <oerjan> you don't need to eradicate mosquitos if you eradicate malaria. of course you may want to anyway.
23:19:14 <kmc> Bike: you're a large molecule
23:19:46 <kmc> viruses that infect viruses? what?
23:20:12 <kmc> oerjan: there might be nasty ecological consequences to eradicating mosquitos
23:20:21 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_virus
23:20:41 <Bike> it's um... once you get down to this level everything gets very blurry
23:20:41 <oerjan> kmc: which is why i didn't suggest it. well also a slight romantic disgust of eradicating species.
23:20:46 <kmc> remember when mao tried to eradicate sparrows because they eat the crops and it turns out they also eat locusts which eat the crops way harder
23:21:10 <kmc> 359 nucleotides wow
23:21:50 <kmc> Tomato bushy stunt? Turnip crinkle?
23:22:04 <oerjan> kmc: i suppose that's part of his 30% bad hth
23:22:52 <kmc> some of you incl ais523 might like https://twitter.com/fbz/status/422844456958971904
23:23:09 <ais523> thanks for the direct link
23:23:15 <kmc> oerjan: only 30% bad?
23:23:16 <ais523> the #! nonsense has a tendency of not working properly
23:23:24 <kmc> oh I haven't seen the #! nonsense in a while
23:23:49 <ais523> maybe they got rid of it
23:24:36 <Bike> kmc: tobacco mosaic, being the first virus found, has a ton of research on it, and i guess it was easiest to spread out into other plants
23:26:31 <oerjan> is there a mosaic virus that does rule 110 patterns twh
23:26:46 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Textile_cone.JPG
23:29:38 <Bike> model species are so weird, i have a book on muscle that uses a lot of rabbit psoas, and guess what the lab i'm working in does twenty years later
23:35:21 <olsner> what's rabbit psoas? a kind of stew?
23:36:43 <shachaf> i like stew but i prefer stew made without rabbits or psoas
23:37:24 <Bike> olsner: filet mignon
23:41:47 <kmc> that makes me think of rabbit phoas or rabbit ptas
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23:46:45 <Bike> the psoas is a muscle in the back that is also filet mignon
23:49:34 <nooga> actually i'm pretty pissed off
23:53:30 <Bike> why, it's tasty
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00:20:25 <oerjan> olsner: what's a swedish rabbit who thinks everyone should listen to a bit of carmina burana
00:21:20 <kmc> hmmmmm i have some bacon wrapped filets mignon in my freezer hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
00:22:19 <kmc> 2 lazy 2 cook
00:24:07 * oerjan thinks olsner might be idle.
00:25:22 <kmc> i want to know the answer!
00:25:40 <oerjan> even though you don't know swedish?
00:26:12 <kmc> that's a risk i'll just have to take
00:27:09 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, did you know that monomorphisms and epimorphisms are both a form of injectivity thing
00:27:17 <shachaf> ie injective and surjective functions
00:27:42 <shachaf> in particular "f is injective" means "(f .) is injective" and "f is surjective" means "(. f) is injective"
00:29:41 <shachaf> (except this works in any category, not just (->), otherwise it would be a silly definition)
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00:30:31 <shachaf> and when they're surjective you get something stronger (but backwards)
00:30:34 <kmc> shachaf: it disturbs me that two of your three commas are bolded
00:31:02 <shachaf> do bold spaces disturb you
00:31:13 <shachaf> the whole phrase is bolded. "whoa, whoa, whoa" is atomic
00:31:49 <shachaf> anyway if (f .) is surjective then f has a left inverse?? and (. f) -> right inverse? or something like that
00:31:50 <Sgeo> I'm a Cablevisionary!
00:32:56 <Sgeo> (Note: I'm not actually that excited about the cutesy name for Cablevision employees)
00:33:03 <nooga> I just discovered that my classic, 81 Mercedes C123 coupe has its left wind welded into the ramp
00:35:01 <shachaf> i keep thinking that you are nooodl and then i realize that you are not nooodl so who even are you
00:35:32 <shachaf> but nooodl would never say a thing like that. what's a wind anyway
00:35:51 <shachaf> i can't grep logs. no logs
00:36:04 <nooga> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ ?
00:36:31 <nooga> wget them all and then can and grep
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00:37:45 <shachaf> nooodl: we just don't know
00:38:17 <nooga> shachaf: you'll discover that I haunted this # for a long time
00:39:14 <nooga> oh just grep the logs and infer who am I from it
00:42:15 <nooga> maybe this isn't the best idea
00:43:22 <nooga> anyway, who's noodl?
00:43:46 <oerjan> <shachaf> anyway if (f .) is surjective then f has a left inverse?? and (. f) -> right inverse? or something like that
00:44:10 <oerjan> getting identity and getting everything seems equivalent
00:45:54 <oerjan> <Sgeo> (Note: I'm not actually that excited about the cutesy name for Cablevision employees) <-- do you have a company anthem twh
00:47:42 <oerjan> shachaf: nooga is the pole, that's easy to remember.
00:48:01 <nooga> oerjan never fails
00:48:03 <shachaf> we've had other poles in here
00:49:28 <nooga> shachaf: tbh i don't know who are you, you must be new here then
00:50:14 <HackEgo> noooodl is the correct spelling
00:51:16 <shachaf> imo add a special case to bin/? for no+dl
00:51:32 <oerjan> there is one, but maybe not in the sense you want
00:51:46 <shachaf> you mean the one for output?
00:52:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
00:52:20 <shachaf> it's no{3,9}dl or something
00:52:26 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
00:52:39 <nooga> where are those prety graphs derived from the logs
00:52:51 <nooga> AFAIR fizzie made them
00:55:08 <nooga> hah, can't find them
00:55:08 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!s/!s/no\+dl/nooodl/;s/!' bin/?
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00:55:27 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/no+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ el
00:55:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!s/!s/no\\+dl/nooodl/;s/!' bin/'?'
00:56:06 <HackEgo> noooooooodl is the correct spelling
00:56:23 <HackEgo> nooooooodl is the correct spelling
00:56:25 <nooga> can I `run perl -e "fork while fork" ?
00:56:28 <shachaf> `? noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl
00:56:30 <HackEgo> noooooooodl is the correct spelling
00:56:40 <ais523> is the correct spelling random?
00:56:54 <ais523> is it ever the same as the original query?
00:57:43 <shachaf> It's between 3 and 9 os, I think?
00:57:48 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
01:01:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/no\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ e
01:02:18 <shachaf> `run sed -i '2s/no/noo/' bin/\?
01:02:31 <HackEgo> noooooooodl is the correct spelling
01:02:35 <nooga> looks like something is broken
01:02:41 <shachaf> because one o is just broken
01:03:12 <oerjan> `learn nooodles are the invention of the chinese. they were brought to europe by marco polo, a distant ancestor of taneb.
01:03:33 <HackEgo> noooooodles are the invention of the chinese. they were brought to europe by marco polo, a distant ancestor of taneb.
01:03:36 <nooodl> i've set up highlights on /no+dl/ before. people have called me nodl before as a result! history repeats itself
01:04:18 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with not capitalizing wisdom entries
01:04:41 <oerjan> shachaf: rnoodle isn't case insensitive
01:05:32 <HackEgo> nooga hate OS X. NOOGA SMASH. Hug not allowed.
01:05:46 <ais523> programmers use caps conventions for namespacing all the time
01:06:02 <ais523> so in the future, we can make `? ALLCAPS do something completely unrelated to wisdom, for instance
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01:06:15 <shachaf> I'm talking about the text, not the file name.
01:06:35 <ais523> that's namespaced too, so if it's written in sentencecase, you know it's sarcastic, or something
01:06:47 <oerjan> ais523: ? _is_ case insensitive.
01:07:16 <ais523> sure, have you ever seen an uppercase '?'?
01:07:30 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
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01:07:55 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/n/N/;s/ t/ T/;s/taneb/Taneb/' wisdom/nooodles
01:07:56 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/nooodles: No such file or directory
01:08:01 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/n/N/;s/ t/ T/;s/taneb/Taneb/' wisdom/noodles
01:08:03 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/noodles: No such file or directory
01:08:04 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
01:08:34 <HackEgo> wisdom/nooodl wisdom/nooodle
01:08:36 <ais523> just as a hint, if an op goes and edits something to say you shouldn't do it
01:08:46 <ais523> you should probably take the hint
01:09:58 <ais523> oerjan: don't deny it, this is hilarious
01:09:59 * oerjan adds to the what? queue
01:10:42 <ais523> I have no idea of the context
01:10:44 <HackEgo> nooga hate OS X. NOOGA SMASH. Hug not allowed.
01:10:54 <oerjan> ais523: i cannot undeny things i don't understand hth
01:10:58 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/n/N/;s/ t/ T/;s/taneb/Taneb/' wisdom/noodle
01:11:00 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/noodle: No such file or directory
01:11:05 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/n/N/;s/ t/ T/;s/taneb/Taneb/' wisdom/nooodle
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01:11:42 <ais523> oerjan: I was interpreting HackEgo's reponse as you disabling HackEgo entry
01:12:20 <ais523> I'm tired and incoherent
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01:13:11 <oerjan> i don't actually have the power to do that, except by kicking HackEgo
01:14:07 <HackEgo> Nooodles are the invention of the chinese. They were brought to europe by marco polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
01:14:28 <oerjan> shachaf: you didn't fix rnooodl to match
01:15:05 <shachaf> rnooodl is case-sensitive.
01:15:33 <oerjan> `learn Nooodles are the invention of the chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
01:15:35 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/learn: line 4: wisdom/: Is a directory \ I knew that.
01:15:41 <oerjan> `learn Nooodles are the invention of the chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
01:15:56 <shachaf> oh, i guess those are names too
01:16:09 <oerjan> `learn Nooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
01:16:33 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
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01:17:19 <shachaf> `run echo >bin/rnooodl 'perl -pe '\''s/[Nn]ooodl/"\1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'\'
01:17:43 <shachaf> `run echo 'nooodl nooodle' | rnooodl
01:17:46 <nooodl> i think you need ([Nn])
01:17:54 <nooodl> or is it \([Nn]\) who knows
01:17:59 <shachaf> in my head i wrote the parentheses
01:18:12 <shachaf> `run echo >bin/rnooodl 'perl -pe '\''s/([Nn])ooodl/"\1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'\'
01:18:13 <nooodl> U+1F04A MENTAL LEFT PARENTHESIS
01:18:18 <shachaf> `run echo 'nooodl nooodle' | rnooodl
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01:18:51 <oerjan> did we break HackEgo again
01:18:56 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/[Nn]ooodl/"\1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
01:19:12 <shachaf> `run echo 'nooodl nooodle' | rnooodl
01:19:13 <HackEgo> .oooooooodl .ooooooooodle
01:19:21 <shachaf> `run echo >bin/rnooodl 'perl -pe '\''s/([Nn])ooodl/"\1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'\'
01:19:24 <shachaf> `run echo 'nooodl nooodle' | rnooodl
01:19:32 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"\1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
01:20:03 <nooga> this gets almost as annoying as this haskell bot i remember from a while ago
01:20:46 <oerjan> `run echo >bin/rnooodl 'perl -pe '\''s/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'\'
01:20:59 <oerjan> `run echo 'nooodl nooodle' | rnooodl
01:21:16 <nooodl> nooga: imagine being me. imagine the pings
01:22:01 <HackEgo> Noooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
01:22:43 <nooga> `run cat bdsmreclist
01:22:45 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
01:22:46 <oerjan> also, boily will probably kill us
01:25:14 <oerjan> nooga: when he has to update the pdf
01:25:41 <nooga> oh, he does that by hand?
01:26:01 <nooga> anyway, where's elliott?
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01:37:19 <oerjan> glogbackup: WHY ARE YOU HERE
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01:45:28 <shachaf> oerjan: you should have written your own stackoverflow answer rather than editing the other one
01:45:38 <shachaf> that way you'd have gotten karma instead of rejected
01:45:51 <oerjan> maybe. i see someone else did.
01:46:49 <oerjan> i just hadn't understood edits were not meant to be used that way, i'm a wiki man you know
01:47:14 <shachaf> i have no idea how edits are meant to be used
01:48:24 <oerjan> well my edits were rejected by 3 people, all of which were shown as usually accepting edits, so i must have done _something_ wrong.
01:48:33 <oerjan> (and 1 person accepted.)
01:50:00 <oerjan> i don't know if you are allowed to open this link but http://stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/3792784
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02:16:06 <kmc> more projects from the person who made the rule 110 scarf: http://www.ravelry.com/projects/fbz
02:16:20 <kmc> and more info on how she programmed the knitting machine http://www.ravelry.com/projects/fbz/wolfram-1d-cellular-automata-01001001-scarf http://fabienne.us/tag/knittingmachine/
02:16:30 <kmc> now i want a knitting machine, knitting machines are the new 3D printers
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02:49:34 <oerjan> <int-e> we all know that it takes a steel foundry to really destroy malware. <-- now i'm wondering if it is possible to make a terminator^Wcomputer out of materials that can survive that
02:55:32 <pikhq> Knee pain makes me feel like an old man. :(
03:01:11 <oerjan> oh the knees. that's two parts of my body that usually _don't_ hurt.
03:01:49 <oerjan> well, not more than the legs in general, anyway.
03:02:12 <pikhq> Yeah, but you are older than time.
03:02:36 <pikhq> Actually, no, you aren't. Time started 1970, right?
03:02:56 <oerjan> well i was probably _conceived_ before time.
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03:10:59 <quintopia> oerjan: lucky you. can i trade knees w/ you?
03:11:17 <pikhq> No, they're mine now! HAHAHA!
03:11:24 <oerjan> only if you take the rest of my body too
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03:34:23 <quintopia> oerjan: including your brain? that can only work out well for me i'm sure
03:34:39 * quintopia wonders what can be done with an extra brain
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04:02:52 <Sgeo> I was in a Windows store today
04:02:54 <Sgeo> They had a MakerBot
04:03:09 <Sgeo> Showing off that Windows 8 comes with 3d printer drivers, apparently
04:06:26 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> if you do that, you have a "primitive recursive" function, equivalence is decidable for those <-- i'm _very_ skeptical. it seems to me that you can encode something like "are there odd perfect numbers" as "is this primitive function which checks whether an odd number is perfect equivalent to const False".
04:06:56 <oerjan> @tell ais523 *primitive recursive
04:09:02 <oerjan> @tell ais523 actually more clearly, "does this TM halt" is would be decidable as "is 'does this TM halt in n steps' equivalent to const False"
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04:18:21 <zzo38> How do I determine my ANI? (MY-ANI-IS doesn't work anymore.)
04:18:29 <oklopol> my knees only hurt after reeeally long periods of sitting without movement, but they do make these clicky sounds on occasion
04:19:18 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> does that converge slow? <Bike> like the rational approximations do <-- the best rational approximations to φ _are_ fib(n+1)/fib(n).
04:19:45 <oerjan> oklopol: you're probably a robot
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04:27:58 <Bike> oerjan: so yes
04:30:31 <shachaf> time for a 2GB dist-upgrade
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04:32:12 <oerjan> i think 2GB was about how much hard disk my last linux machine back at the university had in total.
04:32:48 <shachaf> it took over 12 minutes to download :'(
04:35:14 <shachaf> if only my internet connection at home was that fast
04:49:47 <zzo38> There are services to access other people's ANI, but I wish to access my own ANI; I have no need for other people's.
04:54:24 <zzo38> (For example in order to know the line class and telephone number of a line dialed from, including my own )
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05:44:49 <madbr> why is sin() in radians
05:45:02 <Bike> radians are the true unit.
05:45:28 <madbr> radians are cool for calculus
05:46:40 <madbr> and internally of course it does a taylor series which is easier to express in radians
05:46:42 <madbr> but for like applied math it should be in turns really
05:50:53 <madbr> I use sin(stuff * 2 * 3.141592653589793) way more than sin(stuff)
05:51:08 <quintopia> madbr: sin() is in radians for many reasons. but one good reason is so that lim x->0 sin(x)/x = 1
05:51:48 <madbr> yeah that's calculus related
05:52:05 <oklopol> also very much geometry related
05:52:24 <madbr> I get why in calculus stuff you want to use radians
05:52:41 <quintopia> measuring angles as arcs of the unit circle subtended makes a lot of things nice
05:52:42 <oklopol> sin(x) means you travel along the circle for distance x (upward, starting from the rightmost point), and check how high you got
05:52:57 <madbr> but every time I use the C++ sin() functions it's never in that kind of application
05:53:01 <oklopol> "lim x->0 sin(x)/x = 1" states that you will initially go up
05:53:03 <quintopia> another good reason is that it makes it really simple to state the definition of sine in terms of exp and log
05:53:20 <madbr> I use sine for generating sine wave in sound, where radians are totally useless
05:53:31 <oklopol> if you used turns instead, then angle x would not correspond to that much movement along the circle
05:53:37 <madbr> and fft factors (radians are also useless there)
05:53:37 <quintopia> which makes it easy to write the sine program
05:53:55 <madbr> and various video game applications (where radians are also useless)
05:54:12 <quintopia> madbr: if you need a different sine, just define a sineturn macro.
05:54:16 <oklopol> okay calculus related in that sense, then what i said was sort of useless
05:54:55 <madbr> doesn't the e^i kind of stuff rotate every 1 or 2 units?
05:54:58 <oklopol> for stuff other than math, it doesn't really matter too much what you use
05:56:03 <oklopol> i don't understand the question; however, e^(2pi * a) is a complex number that has length 1 and points in direction a as a vector, where a is in turns
05:56:32 <oklopol> that's basically what you said i guess
05:56:46 <oklopol> just no explicit variable in there
05:56:51 <madbr> quintopia : ah, right
05:57:22 <madbr> the one that rotates every 2 is i^x
05:57:24 <oklopol> but yeah that's another good reason for using radians
05:57:39 <quintopia> madbr: if you actually cared about the distance traveled around the circle, you'd want radians. i suppose you never do.
05:58:07 <madbr> yeah I don't commonly use arcs
05:58:16 <madbr> or calculate the perimeter of stuff
05:58:30 <quintopia> too bad. computational geometry is awesome
05:58:48 <madbr> the computational geometry I do is 3d graphics :D
05:58:58 <oklopol> quintopia: that's a bit of a sweeping statement
05:59:19 * oklopol wonders if that pun is gettable
05:59:22 <quintopia> oklopol: well my floor is kind of dirty, so i needed one
06:00:12 <madbr> kinda wonder how common e^stuff or ln() is in applied code too
06:00:13 <quintopia> oklopol: not very good pun no. it's nowhere near randall's "Kepler the janitor" joke
06:00:49 <oklopol> except i totes didn't get it (i do now)
06:01:37 <quintopia> madbr: you mentioned fourier transforms. if you want a real one (not a fft) you'd need exp and log.
06:01:48 <quintopia> but you don't need radian cos for DCT?
06:02:18 <madbr> quintopia: doesn't it use sin() and that's it?
06:04:47 <quintopia> madbr: it is defined in terms of complex exp. which means you could use sin and cos also, but you'd want the complex versions, which would be internally defined by complex exp and log
06:05:10 <madbr> except no cpu supports complex numbers :D
06:10:43 <madbr> and it's not just done "in software"? (ie by compositing regular floating point operations)
06:12:06 <quintopia> of course it is. your libraries would normally do it that way
06:13:45 <madbr> then it's just a fancy way of writing sin/cos no?
06:14:50 <madbr> dunno why you'd want a non-fft fourier transform anyways :D
06:16:35 <oklopol> i thought there would be hardware support for matrix multiplication, in which case also complex multiplication would've been plausible
06:16:55 <oklopol> but i can't find any evidence of such support, so maybe it's just my imagination
06:17:19 <madbr> I'm not sure putting that many FPU's together makes sense
06:18:00 <oklopol> well, everyone who does anything with graphics will be multiplying matrices
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06:18:18 <oklopol> the question is if there's _anything_ the gpu designers can do to make that faster
06:18:44 <madbr> yeah but you have to multiply a hell of a lot of matrixes to make a matrix multiply opcode have any gain
06:18:57 <madbr> not to mention there's already a dot product opcode in SSE
06:19:17 <oklopol> but people _do_ multiply a hell of a lot of matrices
06:19:40 <oklopol> at least if you do any sort of 3d stuff
06:19:52 <madbr> well, you do a lot of vector*matrix
06:20:24 <madbr> which is what I think sse was designed for
06:20:38 <oklopol> usually, what you have when rendering is three matrices, model, view and projection
06:21:08 <madbr> yeah and you have to multiply them together, but that's like once per model
06:21:15 <oklopol> well okay i guess what i'm about to say can be done faster without matrix multiplication
06:22:03 <oklopol> okay i agree if we discount matrix * vector, then there may be no true gain
06:22:22 <oklopol> (i counted that as matrix * matrix before you mentioned it)
06:22:54 <madbr> simd instruction sets are designed with matrix*vector in mind actually
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06:23:07 <quintopia> matrix*matrix is just a series of matrix*vector ops
06:23:13 <madbr> except maybe the original mmx which was designed for video decoding I think
06:23:56 <madbr> the problem is that matrix*vector is still a whole bunch of fpu operations
06:24:11 <oklopol> quintopia: i don't think that is enough to call it "hardware support" though (ofc i'm not sure we should care so much about what is)
06:24:38 <madbr> it's like 16 multiplies and 12 additions
06:24:42 <quintopia> oklopol: in fact, i find the whole question rather tedious
06:24:52 <Bike> i need hardware support for /sparse/ matrix multiplication. by friday, thanks
06:24:57 <quintopia> indeed, i could give a rats ass how math is applied most of the time
06:25:21 <oklopol> sure, that's a good position
06:25:30 <madbr> a single opcode for doing 16 muls and 12 adds is hard to make worthwhile
06:25:58 <Bike> confession i don't know any sparse matrix algorithms :(
06:26:19 <quintopia> madbr: i dunno seems like it'd be great for pipelining purposes :D
06:26:29 <oklopol> Bike: they are a trivial special case of non-sparse matrix algorithms, by conjugating with sparsification hth
06:26:30 <shachaf> edwardk was telling me nifty things about sparse matrices but i forgot all of them :'(
06:26:37 <shachaf> maybe they had to do with morton ordering
06:26:43 <madbr> quintopia: it's hard to pipe in enough data to keep that many adders and multipliers busy
06:27:00 <Bike> implementation left as an exercise for the reader
06:27:13 <quintopia> oklopol: that sounded very wise you should tell hackego to remember that
06:27:26 <madbr> quintopia: and also the whole thing has like a latency of * plus 4-in-1 summing
06:27:32 <oklopol> let's see i've only seen that done 10000 times
06:27:52 <madbr> quintopia: so it's going to stay a pretty long time in a pipeline which will make the cpu very hard to design
06:27:52 <quintopia> madbr: oops i stopped caring again. sorry. hardware tends to do that to me.
06:28:15 <Bike> how about hardware support for linear operators
06:28:18 <Bike> get my differentiation on
06:28:28 <oklopol> `learn Sparse matrix algorithms are a trivial special case of non-sparse matrix algorithms, by conjugating with the sparsification operation.
06:28:46 <madbr> what's a linear operator
06:29:03 <HackEgo> Sparse matrix algorithms? ¯\(°_o)/¯
06:29:13 <oklopol> except that you define them by their algebraic properties
06:29:14 <shachaf> https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/edwardk/revisiting-matrix-multiplication
06:29:15 <Bike> an operator L is linear iff x * L(y) = L(x*y)
06:29:19 <oklopol> and they just happen to correspond to matrices
06:29:29 <oklopol> where x is a scalar and y is a vector
06:29:37 <madbr> oklopol : the day when ffpu multiply can be done at 1 cycle latency at 4ghz maybe :D
06:29:43 <oklopol> and also you want L(y + y') = L(y) + L(y')
06:29:57 <Bike> but, cauchy monsters...
06:30:27 <madbr> ARM has opcodes for 1 float * vector of 4 floats
06:30:34 <oklopol> quintopia: ? (don't wanna leave you out)
06:30:53 <Bike> oklopol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauchy's_functional_equation#Properties_of_other_solutions
06:30:58 <quintopia> oklopol: i don't know where that wisdom landed
06:31:10 <HackEgo> Sparse matrix algorithms are a trivial special case of non-sparse matrix algorithms, by conjugating with the sparsification operation.
06:32:11 <quintopia> someone should make that learn program split the wisdom name on a be verb
06:32:38 <madbr> oklopol : afaik you're supposed to do it by doing vector multiplications
06:32:48 <madbr> oklopol : and stuff like pairwise addition
06:33:50 <oklopol> to clarify, a linear operator is a matrix multiplication of the form matrix times column vector
06:34:34 <Bike> and the other kind of matrix multiplication is composition.
06:35:41 <oklopol> Bike: those are called additive functions on the wp page
06:36:06 <madbr> oklopol : so stuff like matrix applied on 3d vertexes... SSE was designed for that
06:36:32 <oklopol> the kind of functions considered on that page
06:36:47 <Bike> well, yes, but additive functions include linear functions.
06:36:56 <oklopol> yes, so do general functions
06:37:07 <Bike> i mean22:29 < quintopia> :\
06:37:15 <Bike> i mean, and you defined linear operators as additive functcions.
06:37:37 <oklopol> by _also_, i meant, as a second axiom.
06:37:58 <Bike> oh is it not implied by the scalar bit
06:38:07 <oklopol> it's in the case of reals i guess
06:38:23 <Bike> i've never thought about it.
06:41:00 <oklopol> usually you say L(au + bv) = aL(u) + bL(v)
06:41:36 <Bike> i guess that about covers it
06:44:26 <madbr> looked up intel's asm optim guide
06:44:42 <madbr> you can do 4x4 matrix times 4 element vector in 7 ops
06:48:07 <oklopol> ah yes, on the linear algebra side, that corresponds to Petergren's Lemma
06:48:21 <oklopol> it can be used as an alternative axiomatization
06:48:31 <oklopol> by a basic compactness argument
06:48:38 <oklopol> gotta take a shower though
06:49:07 <madbr> looking up more docs
06:49:23 <madbr> if you try to use more complex opcodes that do more stuff
06:49:41 <madbr> they get divided into simpler microops that take just as much time to execute
06:49:46 <madbr> you're not winning anything :/
06:52:32 <madbr> so that's why you can't have hardware support for matrix multiply
06:53:31 <madbr> the best way to do it is still to use regular multiply and brute force SIMD
06:57:38 <oklopol> well i'm sure you can optimize it, but yeah probably it's not useful
06:58:59 <oklopol> or otherwise the fastest way to do matrix multiplication in hardware is to implement whatever inter ams happened to implement and simulate a program that does it, which to me sounds pretty ridiculous given that that's very restricting
06:59:13 <oklopol> quintopia: in math or in general?
07:00:08 <madbr> GPUs afaik have some hard wired matrix multiplies so it probably has an edge over cpus there
07:00:21 <madbr> but the matrix size is fixed
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07:00:37 <madbr> and it's probably in hardware that does nothing else
07:00:46 <Bike> just won a fields medal #yolo #swag
07:01:43 <oklopol> madbr: i'm very much talking about 4x4 matrices, for nxn ones i can imagine that the most sensible hardware solution is to use software.
07:03:02 <madbr> for NxN you'd probably have to cover the thing in multiplexers which means you'd probably end up with no gain over software yes
07:03:10 <oklopol> also i have only 3 publications this year :(
07:03:26 <oklopol> (also some articles in review and one accepted, but still)
07:04:31 <Bike> i have zero HA
07:04:36 <Bike> i win paper golf
07:04:37 <oklopol> moving from conferences to journals apparently means that you get one year of nothing :'(
07:06:18 <Bike> i hear if a mathematician hasn't done their best work by the time they've published negative five papers they never will
07:08:50 <Bike> thankfully, i am not a mathematician, i just hear rumors of their existence
07:14:33 <Bike> that most horrible of monstrosities, an undergrad
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07:18:11 <Bike> that wasn't colorful enough, i apologize
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07:28:53 <oklopol> gotta go learn to drive a car
07:29:57 <Bike> don't thit the poeople
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07:40:23 <fizzie> UPS, master of the waffle. "Scheduled Delivery: Thursday" "Scheduled Delivery Updated To: Friday" "Scheduled Delivery Updated To: Thursday" "Scheduled Delivery Updated To: Friday" "Scheduled Delivery Updated To: Thursday"
07:41:38 <fizzie> Not the tasty kind of.
07:41:52 <shachaf> p. sure that's the kind i like
07:42:57 <fizzie> We had some waffles in Belgium (as one does) last summer, and they were somehow p. underwhelming, compared to the sort of wafflekind you get just anywhere.
07:44:52 <fizzie> (Regarding the UPS thing, it seems almost as if they update the delivery estimate to Friday whenever the package has an "Arrival Scan" somewhere, and then revise it to Friday after the following "Departure Scan".)
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13:13:28 <boily> good last day of the Negative Cow Club morning!
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13:42:46 <fizzie> Good confusing greeting afternoon.
13:56:36 <boily> hah! I defiantly used a semicolon in my Python code!
13:56:55 <boily> (granted, it's in a docstring describing a special case, but still!)
14:09:48 <FireFly> ...I've used semicolons in Python outside of strings
14:09:55 <FireFly> I'm probably a horrible python programmer though
14:10:16 <nooga> noboty cares about python
14:10:56 * boily forcefully mapoles nooga
14:13:51 <FireFly> If you accidentally mapole the wrong person, do you mapologise afterwards?
14:14:37 <boily> only if the mapolee didn't deserve it.
14:15:45 <boily> I don't hold any mapoling urges against you, and ducks taste good, so you don't have to hide.
14:16:20 * FireFly steps away from the duck again
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14:32:48 <mroman> ah. semicolons are fine in python
14:40:53 -!- conehead has joined.
14:44:23 <mauke> they form a semicolony
14:44:31 <mauke> but what is a lon?
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14:47:54 <fizzie> lo [-n, -ar, -arna]: a lynx.
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15:21:15 <boily> Taneb: identity troubles?
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15:24:17 <boily> you are the brother of your brother, but neither of you are Roujo, nor me. you are also a Hamite, consequence of your ex-Hexamite status.
15:24:42 <boily> (unless you still reside there, in which case you are a exexhexhamite.)
15:28:03 <boily> and, I think according to your tanebventions and Yoneda's Lemma, we can entirely define you.
15:44:54 <fizzie> Was this "Malbolge in popular culture" thing already mentioned here? http://moviecode.tumblr.com/post/72635628609/heres-a-fun-one-using-the-obscure-language
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15:49:08 <boily> `pastelogs moviecode
15:49:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3459
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16:09:15 <fizzie> Seems to have been a different thing.
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17:47:17 <olsner> http://drj11.wordpress.com/2013/09/01/on-compiling-34-year-old-c-code/#comment-5093 <-- interesting tidbit about structs in ancient C
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18:33:50 <HackEgo> Edwardz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:37:55 <mrhmouse> Does anybody have any experience using Husk Scheme? (http://justinethier.github.io/husk-scheme/)
18:38:51 <Edwardz> wish I could say yes. hahaha, but no.
18:40:00 <elliott> nooga: I hear you wanted me
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19:09:02 <Taneb> The first NYHC meeting is tomorrow. NYHC stands for "(New) York Haskell Compiler" because there are a lot of Haskell programmers here and we felt like making a Haskell compiler and YHC is a thing that exists and sort of died and "New York Haskell Compiler" is delightfully ambiguously named
19:09:27 <ais523> Taneb: along the lines of "New Glasgow Haskell Compiler"
19:10:32 <ais523> @message oerjan but "does this TM halt within n steps" is decidable, so there's no problem; a primitive recursive function doesn't gain the magic ability to iterate over all n
19:10:33 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
19:10:49 <ais523> @tell oerjan but "does this TM halt within n steps" is decidable, so there's no problem; a primitive recursive function doesn't gain the magic ability to iterate over all n
19:11:08 <Taneb> Unless some people in New Glasgow decide to make a Haskell compiler
19:11:49 <Bike> huh, that's a real place is it
19:11:58 <shachaf> YHC stands for York Haskell Compiler
19:12:09 <shachaf> it's not fair to take someone else's compiler and add "new" to the beginning
19:12:16 <shachaf> well, maybe it's fair if it's dead
19:12:19 <Bike> what if it was a compilation system instead.
19:12:21 <shachaf> http://yhc06.blogspot.com/2011/04/yhc-is-dead.html
19:12:31 <shachaf> Bike: is that like a factorization system
19:12:43 <shachaf> i don't think i understand factorization systems
19:12:46 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorization_systema
19:13:26 <Bike> what's the typo
19:14:14 <ais523> @tell oerjan or to put it another way, you can compare "Does this TM halt within n steps" and "const False" given any specific value for n, and if you don't have a value for n, you don't have a primitive recursive program, you have a function from integers to primitive recursive programs
19:18:26 <ais523> <Slashdot> <timothy> <ananyo> "At present, an ampere is defined as the amount of charge flowing per second through two infinitely long wires one meter apart, such that the wires attract each other with a force of 2×10^-7 newtons per meter of length."
19:18:57 -!- FreeFull has joined.
19:19:30 <Bike> yeah, they've wanted to change that for a while
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19:20:09 <quintopia> really? it's not currently defined in terms of electron flux?
19:21:04 <ais523> apparently they're considering defining it in terms of the charge of an electron
19:22:13 <Bike> it's intuitively weird to me that amperes are fundamental rather than coulombs
19:22:20 <Bike> amperes are more useful, i guess
19:23:47 <ais523> btw, I was thinking about noit o'mnain worb
19:24:18 <ais523> I think it has an entropy issue that prevents you creating amplifiers, but haven't proved it
19:24:24 <quintopia> oh? i think that language could use a few more features. :D
19:24:28 <ais523> also the wire-crossing problem there is really obnoxious, but might be solvable
19:24:42 <ais523> what I'd like would be a wire-cross, and an amplifier
19:24:50 <ais523> together with an infinitely repeating program for infinite memory
19:25:09 <quintopia> the ability to cause particles to stick to each other, or attract each other, or repel each other. that'd be cool.
19:25:13 <ais523> the amplifier has three ports, it'll convert a bobule at one specific port to one at the other two ports, or vice versa
19:25:37 <ais523> (this works fine with both p-type and n-type communication)
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19:29:09 <mauke> php -r 'var_dump(in_array(2000, array(md5("dbox"))));'
19:29:25 <boily> ais523: an amplifier, as in that triangular thingie you draw in circuitous diagrams, and that produces smoke when used in real life?
19:29:42 <ais523> boily: pretty similar to that, yeah
19:29:47 <ais523> except they don't always produce smoke
19:29:58 <ais523> just usually, especially when exposed to schoolchildren or undergraduates
19:30:44 * boily has fond memories of obliterated electronic components :D
19:32:06 <quintopia> ais523: also the division program doesn't work like it should.
19:33:19 <ais523> anyway, I really want that language to work
19:33:21 <ais523> I just don't think it does
19:34:28 <quintopia> perhaps if you added the ability for a bobule to duplicate in certain situations, like wireworld?
19:35:06 <ais523> quintopia: that's why I suggested amplifiers
19:35:29 <quintopia> ais523: oh you were suggesting that as a new language feature
19:35:44 <quintopia> ais523: i thought you were looking to build something that did that
19:36:27 <ais523> I'd like to, but suspect it's impossible
19:36:30 <ais523> (haven't proven it though)
19:36:33 <boily> couldn't you just emulate wireworld in nomw?
19:37:00 <quintopia> seems straightforward enough to add the ability to connect sinks to sources
19:37:24 <quintopia> "any time this sink consumes a bobule, those sources produce one"
19:37:38 <quintopia> perhaps by just giving them the same name
19:38:19 <quintopia> that would accomplish both amplification and wire crossing and other things
19:38:50 <ais523> yeah, and you can still get original-style sinks and sources
19:38:56 <ais523> also it accomplishes diodes too
19:39:07 <ais523> or, well, they don't act anything like electronic diodes
19:39:13 <ais523> but those one-directional things
19:40:50 <quintopia> now i kind of want to implement that
19:42:46 <ais523> so the spec, basically is "you can create arbitrary connections between sources and sinks; every step, a connected group of sinks can (and will, if possible) destroy a bobule adjacent to each sink, creating a bobule in a blank space adjacent to every connected source"
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19:44:56 <quintopia> sounds close to what i was thinking, though i might have required that every sink actually have a bobule on top of it before they fire. so that it functions something like a synapse.
19:45:18 <quintopia> maybe even allow the sinks to lock a bobule in place
19:46:14 <ais523> quintopia: I meant to require every sink to have a bobule, every source to have a free adjacent space
19:46:26 <ais523> the "on top" variation is probably sipler, though
19:49:03 <quintopia> ais523: also in that variant, perhaps sources could act as walls, so that they are always free to produce a bobule on top of themselves?
19:49:30 <ais523> quintopia: yeah, sinks lock bobules, sources lock holes
19:49:46 <ais523> I think it's important for the elegance of the language that bobules and holes are entirely symmetrical in every way
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19:49:57 <ais523> (and a solid wall blocks both bobules and hole from moving)
19:50:23 -!- successus has joined.
19:50:30 <ais523> my 's' key is unreliable, in case you haven't noticed already
19:50:36 <HackEgo> successus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:51:20 <quintopia> ais523: ah yes, then it's time reversible, in a sense, since a step is just a bobule switching with a hole. there is a correlate here of CPT-invariance.
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19:51:50 <ais523> quintopia: except that reversing it acts identically to not reversing it
19:52:04 <ais523> reversing it swaps sources and sinks
19:52:16 <ais523> and that's why you can get any "voltage" into the circuit at all
19:52:24 <ais523> I'm not sure if the electrics analogy is a good one or not
19:52:31 <ais523> it acts similarly, but the details area all different
19:52:42 <ais523> perhaps we have to use a phrase like "bobule density gradient"
19:52:51 <quintopia> ais523: i was thinking that the relevant symmetry is swapping the direction of time and swapping bobules with holes. holes moving backwards in time is the same as bobules moving forwards
19:52:56 <ais523> anyway, I came to one really neat realization
19:53:02 <ais523> AFAICT, there's no way to create an inverter
19:53:21 <ais523> have two wires for everything, which always have bobule densities of opposite polarities
19:53:27 <ais523> you can do that because of the symmetry of the system
19:53:43 <ais523> then an inverter is simply swapping the two wires
19:54:04 <ais523> and I've already worked out how to construct AND and OR out of amplifiers and one-way walls
19:54:21 <quintopia> ais523: gotta work now. maybe i'll implement that thing this weekend?
19:55:20 <ais523> the hard part is coming up with a reasonable syntax
19:55:39 <ais523> allow for infinite repeating programs, if you can
19:55:55 <ais523> (might be difficult due to infinite repeating patterns not interacting well with nondeterminism)
19:56:02 -!- successus has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
19:56:07 <ais523> (although you could still get away with it via exploiting the speed of light)
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20:17:04 <Bike> http://moviecode.tumblr.com/post/73179804685/ please don't do this
20:18:26 <boily> historical accuracy is hard. let's go ride hoverbikes in the renaissance!
20:19:56 <Bike> by this i mean being so pedantic it's hard to believe you can eat you're so busy "criticizing", and also i mean using "epic fail" in any context
20:20:25 <Bike> that wasn't a very good thingie
20:20:35 <ais523> that entire miniblog is about being excessively pedantic, though, because that's what the readers want
20:21:00 <ais523> also, a parody of that sort of thing would be great
20:21:03 <boily> I must criticize you here. I am not pedantic, just arrogant.
20:21:33 <ais523> like, a film set in 1990 doing "for (int i; i < 0; i++)", and getting a compiler message "error: initial declarations in for-loops have not been invented yet"
20:21:37 <Bike> by 'pedantic' i mean this weird-ass criticism for using a book five years too new, not just hunting down sources, which is maybe obsessive
20:21:38 <ais523> although maybe C++ accepted them back then?
20:22:06 <Bike> didn't some C implementations accept it?
20:22:28 <ais523> if they did, it's probably because implementing C++ makes that feature easy to implement too
20:23:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, I now have 3x 10% off Toki Tori 2 on steam...
20:25:22 <fizzie> Sadly, you probably can't combine them for a 30% off.
20:26:12 <fizzie> Rumour has it my ISP is in the progress of pushing out a firmware upgrade that disables entirely the telnet admin interface.
20:26:33 <Bike> 27.1% off, surely
20:27:34 <fizzie> On one hand, it's nice, because you can log in as "root:public" or "ztedebug:ztedebug" for root shell access, making any locally set "passwords" and such a joke; on the other, it's less nice, because the webterface is quite sucky, and anyway sometimes you might just want a shell.
20:27:55 <fizzie> (The joys of ISP-manageable hardware.)
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20:32:40 <ais523> fizzie: what is this an interface to? your router?
20:34:08 <fizzie> ais523: I guess you could technically call it a router, since it has some features of that kind, but I'm using it as a plain VDSL2 modem.
20:35:26 <fizzie> (One of its Ethernet ports is configured in "bridged" mode, and that's the only thing that's connected to anything.)
20:36:16 <ais523> I take it the admin interface isn't accessible to the public Internet?
20:36:40 <ais523> at least, I hope it isn't
20:37:06 <fizzie> As far as I know, it's not. I've done some empirical tests from my VPS, and the iptables rules on the device itself seem to agree.
20:37:44 <fizzie> Still, there's all that talk about malware that gets to your computer via vector X, then takes over your router and sets up some fake DNS and so on.
20:37:52 <fizzie> Perhaps they're worried about that sort of stuff.
20:38:44 <fizzie> (I'd be more worried about the telnet interface if I were trying to use the thing to run a web cafe or something.)
20:39:04 <ais523> the only benefit to malware for hiding on a router is that it could persist after wiping the computer, and might be a little hard to discover if the antivirus doesn't know about it
20:39:15 <ais523> otherwise it may as well just compromise the machine it's running on, that's easier
20:40:22 <fizzie> I suppose it's easier to spread to other machines in the local network when you can rewrite DNS for google.com. (Or do other stuff w.r.t. yourbank.tld.)
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20:45:13 <fizzie> Huh. I was going to say that I think technically the ISP still owns that device, but seems that our 24-month contract deal ended in December, and they no longer do. Perhaps I should go and disable the remote control functionality.
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20:49:42 <HackEgo> olist 938: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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20:53:15 <boily> `run cat bin/olist
20:53:17 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ oerjan \ Sgeo \ FireFly
20:53:49 <boily> uhm, could someone please add me to the olist? past experience with quoting didn't end well...
20:54:05 <shachaf> boily: don't cat olist, it pings everyone :'(
20:54:11 <shachaf> `run echo boily >> bin/olist
20:55:42 <boily> shachaf: sorry >_>'...
20:55:57 <FireFly> shachaf: clearly he should've s///'d everyones' nicks out
20:56:30 * boily hides under a cardboard box with みかん written on it
20:56:31 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ brewna \ Ftrb \ SverSyl \ obvyl
20:57:11 <HackEgo> [U+307F HIRAGANA LETTER MI]
20:57:43 <fizzie> "brewna" is very catchy name.
20:59:00 <boily> `run echo "Mon aéroglisseur est plein d'anguilles" | r13
20:59:01 <HackEgo> Zba néebtyvffrhe rfg cyrva q'nathvyyrf
20:59:15 <boily> bleh. should've outputted ŕ.
20:59:46 <fizzie> Other people have so rot13able names. :/
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21:01:30 <FireFly> that's byfare the most rot13able name
21:01:40 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:02:00 <ion> What fun puns
21:02:22 <FireFly> > map sort ["boily", "fizzie", "shachaf", "olsner"]
21:02:23 <lambdabot> ["biloy","efiizz","aacfhhs","elnors"]
21:02:45 <boily> olsner is El Norseman!
21:02:54 <ion> `r13elcome
21:02:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: r13elcome: not found
21:03:21 <fizzie> I guess "efiizz" could be some sort of a title. Like "effendi".
21:03:28 <HackEgo> 802) <Gregor> !rot13 Fluttershy Rainbow Dash Rarity Applejack Twilight Sparkle Pinkie Pie <EgoBot> Syhggreful Envaobj Qnfu Enevgl Nccyrwnpx Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr Cvaxvr Cvr <olsner> oh, they're all named after rot13'd welsh words
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21:03:54 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nrelcome | r13' >bin/r13elcome; chmod +x bin/r13elcome
21:04:05 <HackEgo> Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
21:04:05 <olsner> (from last time we did this rot13 everything thing)
21:04:20 <HackEgo> Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
21:04:42 <nooodl> i guess you need relcome $@ or what is it
21:05:04 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/relcome/relcome $@/' bin/r13elcome
21:05:05 <FireFly> `run sed -i s/relcome/& "\$@"/ bin/r13elcome # will this work?
21:05:09 <HackEgo> bash: $@/: No such file or directory \ sed: -e expression #1, char 10: unterminated `s' command
21:05:25 <FireFly> um i think your maybe worked
21:05:27 <HackEgo> abbbqy: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
21:06:09 <olsner> FireFly: insufficient quoting of & and "
21:06:22 <FireFly> I should've put it all in single-quotes
21:06:38 <olsner> (and the space between & and ")
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21:17:58 <ais523> is `r13elcome rainbow in addition to being rot13?
21:18:36 <ais523> I filter out colors in this client, and `relcome does not really give me much reason to stop that
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21:20:38 <fizzie> ais523: It's colorful, yes.
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22:23:07 <mrhmouse> I can't actually read `relcome anyways - bright colors on a bright background and all. I just assume it's a friendly message.
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22:25:22 <monotone> mrhmouse: It actually insults you, but only if you can't read the message.
22:26:16 <lambdabot> ais523 said 3h 15m 26s ago: but "does this TM halt within n steps" is decidable, so there's no problem; a primitive recursive function doesn't gain the magic ability to iterate over all n
22:26:16 <lambdabot> ais523 said 3h 12m 1s ago: or to put it another way, you can compare "Does this TM halt within n steps" and "const False" given any specific value for n, and if you don't have a value for n, you don't have a primitive recursive program, you have a function from integers to primitive recursive programs
22:28:40 <oerjan> @tell ais523 No, the function from n to "Does this TM halt within n steps" _is_ primitive recursive. almost trivially so. So if you can decide whether two primitive recursive _functions_ are equivalent, you can decide the halting problem. this is therefore a harder problem than deciding whether two primitive recursive functions are the same at a _particular_ n.
22:36:58 <oerjan> @tell ais523 or put differently, n is the _input_ to your primitive recursive program, not a part of it.
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22:49:01 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/sparse{, matrix algorithm}
22:49:03 <HackEgo> mv: target `algorithm}' is not a directory
22:49:18 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/sparse{," matrix algorithm"}
22:49:33 <oerjan> `? sparse matrix algorithms
22:49:36 <HackEgo> Sparse matrix algorithms are a trivial special case of non-sparse matrix algorithms, by conjugating with the sparsification operation.
22:49:58 <oerjan> oklopol: DO I HAVE TO CLEAN UP AFTER EVERYONE
22:50:26 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ relcome $@ | r13
22:51:06 -!- nchambers has changed nick to dtscode.
22:51:25 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2crelcome "$@" | r13' bin/r13elcome
22:51:42 <HackEgo> qgfpbqr: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
22:51:58 <dtscode> do you do irp programming here?
22:52:07 <oerjan> nooga: I REPEAT, DO I HAVE TO CLEAN UP AFTER EVERYONE
22:52:13 <oerjan> dtscode: we split off #irp for that.
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23:06:37 <fizzie> fungot: Is HackEgo a bot?
23:06:37 <fungot> fizzie: there is so much simpler. it's easier to do in c" sounds like an interesting project, but i
23:06:41 <fizzie> (Takes one to know one.)
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23:35:29 <oerjan> <fizzie> We had some waffles in Belgium (as one does) last summer, and they were somehow p. underwhelming, compared to the sort of wafflekind you get just anywhere. <-- wait, i thought belgian waffles were the overwhelming kind. maybe norwegian ones are just even worse.
23:39:03 <oerjan> <fizzie> lo [-n, -ar, -arna]: a lynx. <-- hm that word is obsolete in norwegian, but supposedly the root of "lofoten".
23:39:30 <oerjan> (we call the animal "gaupe" these days.)
23:40:26 <oerjan> (also no:lo still has the meaning of en:lint)
23:40:50 <Bike> the "temp" web drive in my department has 928 GB free out of 5.85 TB. what the fuck
23:42:52 <Bike> it seems to be mostly in the folder "AC/3/Small Animal"
23:43:08 <oerjan> <fizzie> Was this "Malbolge in popular culture" thing already mentioned here? http://moviecode.tumblr.com/post/72635628609/heres-a-fun-one-using-the-obscure-language <-- at least twice, also i edited some of the wikipedia reference
23:43:50 <Bike> i have no idea
23:44:00 <oerjan> hm you _are_ a biology department, so the folder name isn't _that_ weird.
23:44:08 <Bike> it seems to be mostly books
23:44:27 <Bike> black's vet dictionary and shit like that
23:44:55 <Bike> anyone want a copy of "A Colour Handbook of Skin diseases of the dog and cat"?
23:45:14 <oerjan> no. absolutely nobody wants that.
23:45:26 <oerjan> (i kid, there's probably _some_ crazy person who does)
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23:49:20 <oerjan> fizzie: that is, the "elementary" reference. the moviecode link itself i don't recall.
23:50:55 * oerjan suspects fizzie of idling
23:52:05 <olsner> IDLING!? such heinous acts
23:52:19 <oerjan> clearly a bannable offense.
23:53:50 <olsner> Bike: probably someone hid 4TB of porn in some deeply nested subfolder
23:53:51 <oerjan> idling is bannable as unreasonably indistinguishable from "intent to ping out, never reading what you said".
23:53:58 <olsner> ... or maybe it's just sciency stuff
23:54:21 <Bike> a lot of the pdfs look like terrible scans, which means one book is half a gig
23:54:27 <Bike> ...well, that's still a thousand books
23:55:25 <oerjan> how long until you can fit scans of all the world's books on a disk
23:56:22 <Bike> olsner: i found Dentistry/AdultK9Roots *waggles eyebrows*
23:56:50 <oerjan> shouldn't you be wagging your tail instead
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00:25:10 <Sgeo> Might start using my tumblr again
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00:39:35 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/73356360201/the-limit-of-extensible-programming-languages-culture
00:46:45 <oerjan> Sgeo: s/its/it's/, s/instant/instance/
00:50:12 <Sgeo> oerjan: erp, thanks
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01:01:55 <Sgeo> Another criticism of Kernel: Applicatives that return operatives do not seem likely to stand out visually
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02:09:18 <Sgeo> 'A pet project of the wiki is the "secularized language" page (a massive example of Personal Dictionary). One of the "secularized words" is "secular." A good citizen should substitute "pagan" every time.'
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02:32:09 <Bike> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-01-14#195925
02:33:07 <quintopia> fuck that's a long time to be down
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03:20:25 <oerjan> hmph i got another set of personally targeted discount coupons from the chain i shop at, and it was strangely annoyingly timed.
03:20:57 <oerjan> as in, it has discounts for several products i only buy rarely, and _did_ buy today or yesterday.
03:21:43 <oerjan> i guess none of the products really spoil, though...
03:22:28 <oerjan> (coupons have to be used within 2-3 weeks)
03:26:57 <oerjan> it's a bit like if they've estimated when i needed to buy more, and got it just a couple days too late :P
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03:37:30 <Sgeo> I think kmc is severely influencing my thought patterns. I blame kmc for making me think of a language's culture as being as or more significant than what the language can do
03:38:17 <oerjan> we shall have to ban him for this, then.
03:38:56 <Bike> gee, too bad he already left
03:39:28 <HackEgo> 2014-01-14 02:16:30: <kmc> now i want a knitting machine, knitting machines are the new 3D printers
03:39:57 <oerjan> i shall assuming he just had a horrible knitting machine accident.
03:40:01 <Sgeo> Also, starting to think Kernel Lisp may be fatally flawed
03:40:08 <Sgeo> Need to think a bit more about it though
03:40:43 * oerjan swats Sgeo for influencing him to think all languages are fatally flawed -----###
03:40:57 <Sgeo> Although really, what else would you expect from a language that thinks the identity function is the Devil?
03:41:03 <Bike> flaws are the spice of life.
03:41:23 <Sgeo> Bike: I'm being a bit silly, but (unwrap id) == $quote
03:41:32 <Bike> yes that is silly
03:42:50 <Sgeo> Maybe I should write some code down to get my thoughts in order
03:45:11 <Bike> if i was going to think about languages i'd think about how it's interesting that common lisp and kernel have totally opposed design philosophies but are reasonably similar, but then i'd be thinking about nerd shit
03:45:40 <Sgeo> You're in #esoteric, home of nerd shit
03:46:13 <elliott> next persno to say nerd shit gets banned. you think I'm joking
03:46:22 <elliott> um by that I mean nerd shit, not "nerd shit"
03:46:28 <Bike> I thought this was a channel for magic. Sorry. Have a good day
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03:47:22 <elliott> I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows.
03:48:54 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows.
03:48:58 <HackEgo> 1160) <elliott> I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows.
03:51:50 <pikhq> Pokemon trading confuses me right now.
03:51:56 <pikhq> I traded a Rattata for a Scizor.
03:55:03 <oerjan> annoying thing: when you google for the definition of a phrase, the first page is full of dictionary links, and not a _single_ one of them contains the actual definition in the quoted text.
03:56:25 <lambdabot> *** "bugle" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:56:27 <lambdabot> n 1: a brass instrument without valves; used for military calls
03:56:31 <lambdabot> 2: any of various low-growing annual or perennial evergreen
03:56:35 <lambdabot> *** "blast" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:58:05 <oerjan> i guess it might not really be a combined phrase anyway
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04:18:25 <oklopol> so i just got an email from the wolfram people
04:18:41 <oklopol> they want to show me that my work can be done better using mathematica
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04:19:44 <oklopol> if i send them a short description of what i'm doing, the tools i'm using, and any relevant code, their experts will check if it can be done in an easier and more cost-effective way using their tools
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04:22:11 <oklopol> if i send them python code with decision properties for dynamical properties of cellular automata, maybe they'll add that stuff to mathematica?
04:23:11 <oerjan> you'd think mathematica would be good for cellular automata
04:23:13 <oklopol> so about the wolfram group
04:23:40 <oklopol> you can't check if a CA is surjective or injective, for example
04:23:55 <oklopol> which is like the most common operation
04:24:15 <oerjan> well istr that's undecidable for >= 2d
04:24:28 <oklopol> i know, my supervisor proved that
04:24:51 <oklopol> but, so about the wolfram group, they have this journal called journal of cellular automata
04:25:12 <oklopol> which was started, i don't know, couple of decades ago
04:26:24 <oklopol> this will continue soon :D
04:27:12 <oklopol> well anyway, it used to be this okay journal
04:28:21 <coppro> I hate proofs that seem like they're fake because they don't cover enough cases
04:28:22 <oklopol> things are getting pretty wtf
04:28:25 <oklopol> http://www.oldcitypublishing.com/JCA/JCAcontents/JCAv8n3-4contents.html
04:29:14 <oklopol> is about what the title says
04:29:52 <oklopol> it's proved that xor solves parity if the tape is periodic with period 2^n
04:31:10 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 60 ""
04:31:14 <oklopol> now, the proof is as follows: if you start with a single 1, by well known properties of binary coefficients, after 2^n steps you get two 1s, 2^n apart. by linearity, if you have period 2^n, this eliminates the first one.
04:31:36 <oerjan> hm that only uses 2 cells
04:32:37 <oklopol> but anyway it's ridiculous that a journal would publish that
04:34:49 <oklopol> basically the journal of cellular automata published something that is trivial to everyone who knows the basics of cellular automata, with a long obscure proof
04:35:25 <oerjan> after 2^n-1 steps you get a row of 2^n 1's, iirc
04:35:28 <oklopol> (afaik, the author is a student of the editor, but that could be just a rumor.)
04:35:42 <oklopol> i don't recall the details, just that it's trivial
04:35:43 <oerjan> which i'd think is more relevant for computing parity
04:35:57 <oklopol> the two 1s made little sense
04:36:15 <oerjan> clearly i should have published this years ago when i thought of the same thing :P
04:36:50 <oklopol> it's not even close to publishable
04:37:43 <oklopol> i mean people from our community have articles in there
04:38:46 <oerjan> don't worry, it'll balance out by making phantom_hoover happy hth
04:39:10 <Sgeo> Is the thing that ais523 and I proved considered trivial to everyone who knows the basics of ... is it CA or something else?
04:39:39 <Sgeo> I think that any bounded CA... I kind of forget
04:39:57 <oklopol> like, "periodic boundary condition"?
04:40:09 <Sgeo> GoL or similar, on a torus or with an edge
04:40:34 <oklopol> usually the theory works best on a torus
04:40:47 <oerjan> that thing about having a garden of eden?
04:41:05 <oerjan> iirc that was probably a bit too simple to be publishable
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04:41:32 <oerjan> although i don't quite recall the prerequisites
04:41:44 <oklopol> well one trivial thing to anyone who knows the basics of set theory is that invertible = surjective = bijective, in this case
04:41:54 <Sgeo> "01:12:23: <oerjan> basically, because of the hole you know that its immediate descendant has at least two possible parents"
04:42:21 <Sgeo> 01:12:59: <Sgeo> If the pattern results in a loop, then only one of those patterns is in the loop (I'm a bit shaky on that part)
04:42:21 <oklopol> which is the only thing that garden of eden suggested to me
04:42:33 <oerjan> oklopol: you know, not only must it be trivial, but wolfram himself must have seen it when calculating all those elementary automaton pictures.
04:42:43 <oerjan> (the thing in the journal)
04:45:10 <oerjan> (back in the 80's or so)
04:46:11 <oerjan> well garden of eden exists ~ not surjective
04:46:24 <oklopol> yeah i think he would turn in his grave, or car or whatever, if he saw that one (i doubt he's very much involved in it)
04:46:47 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, but if Sgeo and ais523 had proved that, i would be very surprised
04:46:52 <oerjan> oh now i remember, "every pattern either is periodic or has a garden of eden ancestor"
04:47:44 <oklopol> well that's a good observation, and it's the starting point of many a proof
04:47:52 <Sgeo> That sounds familiar, but you need a hole
04:48:16 <oerjan> well you need some finiteness condition
04:48:18 <oklopol> i mean good observation about functions on sets, not really about CA
04:48:21 <Sgeo> Well, wrong terminology, but a place where a cell can be either alive or dead without affecting the next generation
04:49:11 <oklopol> i don't know what you need that for, maybe i'm misunderstanding the result
04:49:25 <oerjan> oh wait i think maybe we avoided the finiteness
04:50:00 <Sgeo> Pretty sure the statement involved being bounded, either on a torus or with edges
04:50:01 <oerjan> by using "lightspeed" and comparing size of boundary to the whole set
04:50:31 <oerjan> well i'm probably mixing together several statements
04:50:55 <oklopol> then, on the face of it, it should in particular be true for all surjective CA that all patterns are periodic
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04:51:38 <oerjan> hm i think periodic may not have been part of the statement
04:51:53 <oklopol> surjective CA are recurrent
04:52:25 <oklopol> for any pattern of size n, after 2^n or so steps you will have found that same pattern in the same position
04:52:59 <oklopol> (but that's the only way i know for proving it)
04:53:47 <oerjan> maybe the theorem was on a bounded thing anyway
04:54:17 <Sgeo> oklopol: um, that's blatantly untrue? CA: Every cell dies
04:55:07 <oklopol> in particular, a configuration is either in the limit set (and the CA is surjective on the limit set, and the result applies here too so it is recurrent) and thus has itself as an "ancestor", or it's not in the limit set, and for some n, every nth preimage is a garden of eden
04:55:43 <shachaf> if you accept the axiom of choice then (f .) is injective iff (. f) is surjective, and vice versa??
04:56:14 <oklopol> for the first one, you don't need AoC afaik
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04:56:55 <oklopol> for the second one neither?
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04:57:16 <shachaf> "vice versa" meaning (. f) is injective iff (f .) is surjective
04:57:17 <oklopol> isn't it more the split epis and split monos that need AoC
04:57:59 <oklopol> in Set, (. f) is injective if and only if f is injective, no?
04:58:11 <shachaf> (f .) is injective iff f is injective
04:58:18 <shachaf> (. f) is injective iff f is surjective
04:58:41 <oklopol> yes, so you are asking if injective = surjective, in Set, if we assume AoC?
04:59:04 <oklopol> okay now i see where the trouble is.
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05:02:20 <oklopol> to me, it seems (. f) is surjective implies that f is injective without choice, and <= also without choice
05:02:32 <oklopol> maybe i'm blerping somehow
05:03:13 <shachaf> Yes, you don't need choice for that one.
05:03:46 <shachaf> You need it for (f .) is surjective iff (. f) is injective
05:03:59 <shachaf> I.e. (f .) is surjective iff f is surjective
05:04:41 <oklopol> that does sound choicy for that
05:04:42 <shachaf> And in particular for the ← direction.
05:06:43 <shachaf> (f .) is surjective means that f has a right inverse
05:08:30 <oklopol> that's what i mean by split epi
05:10:17 <shachaf> not sure where the name "split" came from
05:10:56 <oklopol> we are trying to publish a decision procedure for split epicness of CA :P (it's not the only result in the paper, but anyway)
05:16:54 <oklopol> (let's say, for whether they are split epi onto their image, since it's actually trivial if you take the whole configuration space as both domain and codomain)
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06:33:54 <fizzie> @tell oerjan That's just it, the Belgian ones are supposed to be the bee's knees, and the owl's whatever-body-parts, &c.
06:34:17 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Perhaps we were just eating them wrong.
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06:38:11 <Sgeo> o...k.... the person who recruited me is now following me on Twitter
06:42:29 <oklopol> recruiter: Sgeo sucks at playing the piano!
06:42:38 <oklopol> i took a wild guess at your professoin
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13:31:42 <boily> good clear morning!
13:34:09 <fizzie> Good /clear afternoon, for all your "I can't stand to look at this channel" needs.
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13:41:10 <int-e> Personally I find /part more effective.
13:48:40 <fizzie> I guess, but then you don't see if it gets better.
14:10:26 <oklopol> int-e: you need both, /part only erases the future.
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14:52:12 <boily> there should be an /obliterate command that erases the Universe.
14:53:37 <fizzie> Since it's a well-known fact that this channel is mostly about self-balancing unicycles: http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/11/onewheel-self-balancing-skateboard-test-drive-video/
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15:29:38 <int-e> boily: many people seem to be satisfied with /suicide
15:31:15 <int-e> mauke: horrible, horrible pun. you should be ashamed!
15:40:46 <FreeFull> You should beware of the \ from horrible puns.
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15:56:34 <boily> unicode is humourless. you can't joke with unicode. unicode is the Law that Binds the Universe together.
16:13:50 <HackEgo> [U+1434 CANADIAN SYLLABICS POO]
16:14:18 <HackEgo> [U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DCA9 DUNNO]
16:14:43 <FreeFull> Seems HackEgo's unidecode doesn't handle characters outside the BMP
16:15:18 <boily> it's a well known fact, due to the python2ness of the script.
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16:17:23 <mauke> if it's possible in javascript, it should be possible in python2 too
16:18:54 <boily> mauke: it should, but it won't. python 2.7 is linked against unicode data 5.2.0, and 3.3 against 6.1.0.
16:19:13 <mauke> javascript isn't "linked" against anything
16:21:07 <FreeFull> I don't know if it's defined if Javascript uses UCS-2 or UTF-16
16:22:05 <mauke> I'm not sure what that even means
16:23:02 <FreeFull> Well, UCS-2 won't handle anything outside the BMP either
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16:25:11 <mauke> I refer you to http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=%F0%9F%92%A9
16:29:24 <FreeFull> Modern browsers will use UTF-16, naturally
16:30:40 <FreeFull> "A conforming implementation of this International standard shall interpret characters in conformance with the Unicode Standard, Version 3.0 or later and ISO/IEC 10646-1 with either UCS-2 or UTF-16 as the adopted encoding form, implementation level 3. If the adopted ISO/IEC 10646-1 subset is not otherwise specified, it is presumed to be the BMP subset, collection 300. If the adopted encoding form is not otherwise specified, it is presumed to be
16:31:00 <FreeFull> I guess that means that UCS-2 and UTF-16 are both valid, but UTF-16 is preferred
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16:47:15 <HackEgo> Man: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:47:32 <Man> hello buddy
16:47:43 <Man> first time in this channel
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16:49:52 <boily> this channel is... well... it is a channel. we think. it has people in it, except for the bots, and those who don't clearly fit in these categories.
16:50:58 <Man> I love esoteric things
16:51:46 <metasepia> CYUL 151600Z 13006KT 15SM BKN033 OVC060 01/M03 A2988 RMK SC6SC2 SLP120
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16:54:21 <Man> is that esoteric thing? ;)
16:55:09 <mauke> looks like weather
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16:56:28 <Man> looks like some serial number of a software
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17:18:00 <int-e> the easiest bit is this: 01/M03 is temperatures
17:18:09 <int-e> (temperature and dew point)
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17:18:38 <int-e> I learned that googling "metar" btw. You can do that, too ;-)
17:18:54 <metasepia> LOWI 151650Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW015 SCT023 BKN100 03/00 Q1013 R08/19//68 NOSIG
17:19:35 <int-e> nice, three layers of clouds.
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17:58:42 <metasepia> ESSA 151750Z 04008KT 9999 FEW021 SCT026 M07/M09 Q1018 R01L/710167 R08/710164 R01R/710180 NOSIG
18:05:10 <metasepia> EFHK 151750Z 04009KT 9999 SCT040 M12/M13 Q1020 NOSIG
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18:53:03 <mrhmouse> I don't know that we properly explained it last time, but this is a channel for esoteric programming languages :)
18:57:47 <Man> what language is it? what is this needed for?
18:59:13 <mrhmouse> Perhaps http://esolangs.org can explain that a bit better than me.
18:59:26 <boily> Man: they are needed for the need they are needed for.
19:00:23 <Man> I thought it is a channel where people are used to esoteric things.
19:00:43 <Man> used to talk I meant
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19:04:35 <boily> darn. and for once we had a newcomer who didn't immediately scamper off, or is a misguided hispanophone...
19:06:00 <mrhmouse> well, he scampered off and then came back.
19:06:23 <mrhmouse> and the away she scampered again.
19:07:38 <boily> she? but they were calling themselves “Man”.
19:08:50 <mrhmouse> that doesn't imply much, though.
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19:37:24 <ais523> do any of you have some interesting cyclic tag programs handy?
19:37:34 <ais523> in particular, I'm interested in one for which it's unknown whether or not it halts
20:04:39 <nooodl> ais523: how hard is converting turing machines to cyclic tag?
20:05:02 <ais523> nooodl: it's been done, that's how they were proved TC
20:05:09 <ais523> I don't know the turing machine → tag machine part of the construction, though
20:06:16 <ais523> Wikipedia has a tag machine that calculates the Collatz sequence
20:06:30 <ais523> which is vaguely interesting, I guess
20:06:32 <shachaf> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bdfl9_-CQAAY3It.jpg:large
20:06:42 <shachaf> oops, on-topic discussion, sorry
20:07:59 <nooodl> god. apparently this page lists 40-something 5-state 2-symbol turing machines whose halting is unknown, but http://skelet.ludost.net/bb/nreg.html
20:08:16 <nooodl> i don't understand it at all...
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20:08:45 <oklopol> isn't the point that no one understands them
20:10:22 <nooodl> don't understand the page. it lists a bunch of machines but doesn't say if they're "HNR" but gives a "HNR_count" for the whole list? maybe it's the "----" ones?
20:10:26 <oklopol> can't say i recall how cyclic tag systems simulate turing machines
20:11:18 <oklopol> the basic idea of the naive constructions is prolly that you have a configuration of a tm as the word, and you keep moving the first thing to the end until you see the head and there you do a bit of rewriting while moving it to the end
20:11:44 <oklopol> and this is trivial except for the fact that cyclic tag systems are sort of restricted so you have to be really careful
20:12:33 <oklopol> there's prolly more sophisticated ways (and possibly what i said doesn't work)
20:14:09 <nooodl> also i guess a (5,2) machine might be potentially very long! (as a cyclic tag program)
20:15:17 <oklopol> there was a guy talking about some construction of his
20:15:41 <oklopol> afaiu it was the currently "best" way to simulate turing machines with cyclic tag systems
20:16:34 <oklopol> for example he needed it for this, since the old ways were too slow http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11786986_13#page-1
20:17:02 <oklopol> and one part of his construction is to take a cyclic tag system and convert it to another kind of tag system
20:17:26 <oklopol> or some sort of tag systems to another kind anyway
20:17:42 <oklopol> and it's asymptotically fast, but he converted something like a tag system that just copies bits from one end to another
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20:25:26 <HackEgo> DTSCode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:48:44 <shachaf> kmc: whoa,, new stripe ctf
21:01:35 <fizzie> ITYM "whoa, a third shirt opportunity"
21:03:27 <coppro> ugh, this is annoying, my voice is not liking me this week
21:12:57 <boily> coppro: loss of voice?
21:13:23 * boily asks the Prophetic Cuttlefish... “will I be able to do XLS exports from OpenERP?”
21:13:24 <metasepia> Your divination: "Articulating" to "Articulating"
21:13:35 <boily> go fungot yourself, you...
21:13:35 <fungot> boily: where's the code?
21:13:56 <boily> fungot: deeply munged across multiple undocumented, uncommented, unmaintained obscure modules.
21:13:57 <fungot> boily: i don't care about the output
21:14:11 <boily> fungot: me neither, but the client does.
21:14:12 <fungot> boily: at least he is a fnord it's a package and the other which gets called by the first person should just get a fair share of odd looks?)
21:14:34 <mrhmouse> fungot gets all the odd looks. and the even looks.
21:14:34 <boily> fungot: incidentally, just having a first name can crash OE in interesting manners.
21:14:34 <fungot> mrhmouse: it's made functionally thuogh if you're going for speed, either, due to a quality i have. i think it was
21:14:35 <fungot> boily: mandatory to attain choir since i was supposed to give with it was between the pages of some net stores like verkkokauppa, but you'd have a heck of a time
21:15:03 <mrhmouse> boily: don't worry; you are going to have a heck of a time.
21:17:50 <boily> mrhmouse: the time is like heck. my brains are now devoid of nutrients, and feel like lime and coconut flavoured slush. the duck can't cover the extension. I will not sleep here tonight. Home also I cannot go.
21:18:21 <boily> (A voice, sweetened and sustained, called to him from the sea.)
21:19:24 <metasepia> Your divination: "Parting" to "Open"
21:19:47 <boily> mrhmouse: the only fragments I read come from the fortunes I installed on this machine.
21:20:23 <mrhmouse> Ha. I haven't seen any come across on my machine. But then, my fortunes are polluted with ponies.
21:20:42 <coppro> boily: no, too much singing
21:21:00 <boily> mrhmouse: I have dirty limericks with ponies :D
21:21:22 <mrhmouse> boily: I'm not interested in Greek literature
21:21:48 <boily> mrhmouse: I read the Odyssey. it was good.
21:22:21 <mrhmouse> is that with the cyclops whose eye is put out? I was a terrible student.
21:22:21 <boily> coppro: what kind of?
21:23:08 <boily> mrhmouse: it was with the cyclops, with the sirens, with Charybdis and Scylla, with gods and not-quite-gods...
21:23:43 <metasepia> Your divination: "Coupling" to "Small Accumulating"
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21:54:02 <ion> There’s a Finnish company literally named “SS ovens” http://www.kauppalehti.fi/yritykset/yritys/tmi+ss+uunit/15856725
21:55:06 <fizzie> The ever-so-popular "KKK" shops also sometimes raise some eyebrows.
21:55:21 <fizzie> Though I think their logo these days only uses a single "K".
21:56:39 <fizzie> Yes, it's gone from https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgS7oMY5Zm4QDiYkY9S7pNPCpVqJ10KenrYlxfwNWhq2M2SEjr6Q to oh god, I can't paste this, it's a data:image/jpeg;base64,... URL
21:57:06 <fizzie> s|oh.*|http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:K-supermarketin_logo.svg|
21:57:47 <ion> Where is it a data URI? A canvas element?
21:58:10 <fizzie> The Google image search thumbnail, after open-image-in-new-tab.
21:58:34 <fizzie> Apparently it's sometimes a gstatic.com link like the first one, and at other times a data:, presumably depending on size.
21:58:44 <FreeFull> K supermarket, does it have anything to do with KDE?
21:59:39 <fizzie> FreeFull: Sadly, no. (The "K" comes from "Kesko", the company running all K-extras, K-markets, K-supermarkets and K-citymarkets.
22:00:00 <fizzie> Which used to be denoted "K", "KK", "KKK" and "KKKK".)
22:00:18 <FreeFull> KKKK, 4/3 times as racist as the KKK
22:02:13 <ion> fizzie: Interesting
22:02:21 <ion> (Google using data: like that, that is)
22:02:42 <ion> assuming it’s not a canvas element for some reason
22:02:52 <fizzie> Are you saying the ins and outs of Finnish grocery store chains are not interesting!?
22:04:26 <fizzie> When I inspect-element these things, they *all* seem to be <img src="data:...">.
22:05:06 <fizzie> Oh, there's the one I first linked to, that indeed is not.
22:05:48 <fizzie> It has some custom "data-src" and "data-sz" attributes too.
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22:25:26 <FreeFull> ion: I think more browsers support data: than canvas
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22:32:56 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 59m 1s ago: That's just it, the Belgian ones are supposed to be the bee's knees, and the owl's whatever-body-parts, &c.
22:32:56 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 58m 38s ago: Perhaps we were just eating them wrong.
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22:36:02 <ais523> oerjan: I guess we're using different definitions of program
22:36:43 <oerjan> well if yours take no input, then equivalent is just having the same result/output
22:37:16 <ais523> the problem being that you can't necessarily calculate that because they might not provably terminate
22:37:37 <oerjan> right, but primitive recursive programs always terminate.
22:38:31 <ais523> that's why equivalence is decidable
22:38:44 <ais523> I wasn't trying to claim that this result was somehow interesting
22:43:47 <oerjan> <shachaf> not sure where the name "split" came from <oklopol> i have no idea <-- i have heard it in the case of module categories, where a split exact sequence is essentially an injection and an epimorphism that together split the middle module into a direct sum.
22:44:21 <oerjan> so it's probably inherited from there.
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22:46:31 <oerjan> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_lemma
22:47:33 <lambdabot> PenguinOfDoom says: Being enlightened gentlemen, we split all programming languages into two groups, sucks and doesn't-suck and put all of them into the first group.
22:47:40 <shachaf> these lemmas are always creatively named
22:47:42 <oerjan> @tell oklopol the name is probably from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_lemma
22:47:47 <lambdabot> slava says: Because top enterprise industry analysts recommend that managers need to focus on Agile methodologies, SOA, B2B and Yoneda's lemma in today's rich internet application-driven environment. Don't get left behind by the AJAX craze by missing out on call center outsourcing and Yoneda's lemma!
22:48:19 <shachaf> especially ones like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_lemma
22:48:28 <shachaf> and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_lemma
22:48:39 <oerjan> i learned recently that there are n^2 lemmas in general iirc
22:49:04 <shachaf> yep, see the bottom of the page
22:50:29 <ais523> oerjan: well the number of lemmas, at any given time, is finite
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22:50:36 <ais523> but presumably it increases frequently
22:50:47 <ais523> so it's unlikely to be a square number at any given moment in time
22:51:02 <shachaf> oerjan: hmm, do you know what i'm trying to ask in https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ShachafBen-Kiki/posts/Bt4CxtttYxP
22:51:26 <oerjan> ais523: i mean that there is a sequence of lemmas analogous to the nine lemma, but with n^2 items in the diagram.
22:54:04 <oerjan> shachaf: to be fair, i don't recall learning the splitting lemma with a name originally.
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23:00:03 <oerjan> shachaf: can't think of anything nontrivial (e.g. distributive lattice)
23:01:04 <oerjan> i don't quite see the sense in which RE = open fits better than RE = closed
23:01:44 <ais523> btw, my question about interesting cyclic tag programs
23:01:51 <ais523> was because I want an interesting example for my new esolang
23:02:58 <shachaf> oerjan: do you mean that you think closed fits better or just that they both seem to make equal sense?
23:04:00 <shachaf> well, if we only allow finite unions and intersections then the definition is symmetric
23:04:14 <shachaf> so it would work either way
23:04:23 <oerjan> aka distributive lattice
23:04:33 <shachaf> my rough intuition is "open set ~ semidecidable predicate"
23:05:01 <shachaf> but i bet i don't really know what this thing is like
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23:50:59 <shachaf> oerjan: so every finite topology has a dual topology
23:58:02 <oerjan> i find none on browsing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_topological_space
00:00:03 <shachaf> well, i imagine that you can do something like for any Alexandrov space, more generally
00:00:38 <shachaf> since every Alexandrov space corresponds to a preörder and every preörder has a dual
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04:02:20 * ski . o O ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontrjagin_duality> )
04:02:33 <ski> oerjan : have you seen "Topology Via Logic" by Steven Vickers ?
04:03:45 <Sgeo> "It will either prove or disprove, or maybe neither."
04:03:50 <Sgeo> http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/15/showbiz/justin-bieber-vandalism-probe/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
04:05:27 <oerjan> that should about cover it, then
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04:55:26 <ais523> ski: is that the same Steve Vickers who works at my department?
04:55:40 <ais523> if so, it's weird seeing people casually namedrop my colleagues, /again/
04:58:43 <ski> ais523 : i don't know what department you're at, but it's the Vickers at <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~sjv/papersfull.php#TVL>
05:04:07 <oklopol> maybe RE = open fits better because if you have a union of RE sets such that the turing machines giving them are enumerated by a turing machine, then the union is RE
05:05:33 <oerjan> @tell shachaf see oklopol in logs
05:09:44 <ais523> hmm, my Turing-completeness-without-player-action proof for Magic: the Gathering is almost complete
05:10:10 <ais523> any Magic fans (b_jonas?) here happen to know a way to cause an arbitrary creature to stop being a creature, while keeping its rules text around?
05:10:44 <oklopol> when you discuss for example the full shift S^\Z for a finite set S (that is, the cantor space), you want to talk about open sets which are somehow computable, and closed sets which are somehow computable
05:10:55 <oklopol> what you do is say you have an "RE open set"
05:11:19 <oklopol> which means that a turing machine outputs words w such that every word with central pattern w is in your set
05:11:27 <oklopol> and you have coRE closed sets
05:11:40 <oklopol> by outputting words w such that no word with w in the center is in your set
05:13:26 <oklopol> well i don't know what percentage of humans would say that, but you certainly could say that
05:13:48 <ais523> actually I think you can just turn it into a copy of a licid until end of turn, but that doesn't really work for what I want as then it gets enchant creature, which I don't want either
05:13:59 <ais523> basically the idea is that it needs to be able to survive infinitely many -1/-1 effects
05:16:00 <Sgeo> o.O at Unexpected Results
05:20:50 <Sgeo> "You can concede a game while Platinum Angel on the battlefield. A concession causes you to leave the game, which then causes you to lose the game (Once you concede, you no longer control a Platinum Angel, so its ability can't prevent you from losing the game)."
05:21:05 <Sgeo> Why did there need to be a ruling on this?
05:21:18 <Sgeo> As in, did someone concede then dispute the concession?
05:22:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: You're asking whether geeks did something ridiculously pedantic?).
05:23:18 <ais523> yeah, I like oerjan's explanation for this
05:24:51 <quintopia> ais523: do you want to review the language we discussed the other day before I post it to the wiki
05:25:51 <Sgeo> ais523: what's oerjan's explanation?
05:26:04 <ais523> Sgeo: see the quit message
05:26:09 <ais523> "(Quit: You're asking whether geeks did something ridiculously pedantic?)"
05:26:24 <ais523> quintopia: not sure I remember, what does NOMW stand for?
05:28:21 <ais523> you may as well just post it, and then I can look at it there
05:28:25 <quintopia> ais523: also are you working on refining the MTG TM? remove the requirement that a player has an option?
05:28:37 <ais523> I'm trying to remove phasing altogether
05:28:45 <ais523> via inventing an esolang that maps more directly than a TM does
05:29:02 <ais523> actually, I guess just giving these creatures all creature types would work
05:29:16 <quintopia> can you give a creature all creature types?
05:29:27 <quintopia> artificial evolution only changes the creature type right
05:29:35 <ais523> it was a mechanic in lorwyn block
05:29:47 <ais523> I'm pretty sure at least one card granted it to arbitrary creatures
05:30:57 <ais523> actually there's an entire cycle
05:31:13 <ais523> also amoeboid changeling, which has it as a tap ability
05:31:26 <coppro> I could only remember the red one, plus nameless inversion
05:32:26 <quintopia> you clearly know mtg much better than me
05:32:31 <ais523> anyone know how many creature types there are offhand? this construction needs like 200
05:38:38 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1vc7ot/if_a_future_civilization_found_a_complete_set_of/
05:39:40 <oklopol> so can you design a magic deck such that with probability 1, no matter what the players do, a particular computation emerges
05:39:43 <ais523> Sgeo: the "what happens if you play Floral Spuzzem and you're using that Un-card that removes errata" has become something of an inside joke
05:39:48 <oklopol> i guess they can just say "okay i give up"?
05:40:01 <oklopol> but other than that, how likely is it that you can do that
05:40:03 <ais523> I believe the current opinion is that the Floral Spuzzem gets a loss for slow ply
05:40:15 <ais523> oklopol: they could also not play any spells
05:40:21 <ais523> there aren't any cards that force you to play them
05:40:30 <ais523> no could there be, reasonably, it'd be impossible to enforce
05:44:15 <ais523> because nobody but the person holding them would know that they'd drawn them
05:44:29 <oklopol> there are many card games with such rules though
05:44:50 <oklopol> it feels really wrong but works in practice
05:45:06 <ais523> the Magic designers are really worried about that sort of cheating, for some reason
05:45:20 <ais523> they were worried even about designing cards that gave you a bonus if you played them immediately upon drawing them
05:45:37 <ais523> or cards that let you look at a set of cards from your deck without changing their order
05:46:00 <ais523> both of which are enforceable by the opponent, but only if they pay attention to how your hands are moving
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05:46:55 <oklopol> so, i need to do some linear algebra homework, invert matrices and stuff
05:47:58 <oklopol> also yesterday my gf was watching and kept saying "why did you write 99 there btw?"
05:48:14 <oklopol> the worst part is she was always right and it was supposed to be something else
05:48:49 <oklopol> i'm sure i have much to teach these people
05:49:56 <oklopol> like, "why did you write 99?"
05:50:13 <oklopol> see what i did was realize that i am interested in the span of these vectors
05:50:26 <oklopol> and i know that if i sum these vectors like this, then the span does not change, but
05:50:34 <oklopol> "NO NO i mean 90 + 5 is 95, not 99"
05:51:13 <Bike> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2039#comic
05:52:43 <oklopol> (she does know matrices though, i just lecture to everyone equally)
05:58:59 <Sgeo> Both Factor and Rebol look backwards sometimes, and forwards other times
05:59:11 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure both prefix-only and postfix-only suck
06:03:48 <quintopia> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_The_Main_Worb
06:03:58 <ais523> quintopia: I like the name :-)
06:04:41 <ais523> also, that's a really good reason to have image-based source code
06:06:42 <ais523> quintopia: it's not Turing-complete unless you give it infinite memory somehow
06:07:05 <ais523> say by tiling the plane with it, with different tiled copies being taken to have different labels
06:07:22 <ais523> you said you could construct TC families
06:08:09 <ais523> I do think that construction at the bottom proves it NP-hard to determine whether a stable state exists for any given NTMW program, though
06:08:15 <quintopia> ais523: which implies that one is allowed to generate circuits with a limited TM, yes?
06:08:32 <ais523> quintopia: yeah but TCness doesn't work like that
06:08:52 <ais523> being able to produce arbitrary circuits is proof of NP difficulty, though
06:09:04 <quintopia> ais523: I'll change it to LBA then. happy?
06:09:08 <ais523> what's more interesting is whether that's PSPACE-complete
06:09:18 <ais523> quintopia: no because it doesn't take input, that's part of the definition of LBA
06:09:41 <quintopia> ais523: we can define input size as "number of raw sources and sinks"
06:09:50 <ais523> there's a whole different set of complexities for things with finite memory, like that finite state machine
06:09:53 <ais523> that's code size, not input size
06:10:09 <quintopia> ais523: they function as input to the circuit
06:10:30 <quintopia> why do i keep pinging you no one else is talking
06:10:45 <ais523> because they act deterministically, there's no input being received from outside
06:10:52 <ais523> and if there /were/, you still wouldn't have an LBA
06:11:03 <quintopia> there's no input being received from outside when a TM starts with its input on the tape also
06:11:04 <ais523> because the amount of data storage you have is not proportional to the size of the input you've received
06:11:16 <ais523> Turing machines also aren't LBAs, though
06:11:33 <ais523> the LBA restrictions of Turing machines require you to implement a separate input mechanism
06:11:41 <quintopia> i'm just saying your objection to calling parts of the code "input" is invalid
06:12:03 <ais523> I'm saying you can't arbitrarily define some lines of code (or pixels of code, in this case) to be input
06:12:07 <ais523> because that makes no sense
06:12:18 <ais523> input isn't part of the code, by definition
06:12:41 <quintopia> why can't i draw a line across the image and say "everything on this line is input, everything else is code"
06:12:52 <ais523> now, you could define a preprocessor that compiled input into circuitry, then you probably would have an LBA
06:12:53 <oklopol> "<ais523> being able to produce arbitrary circuits is proof of NP difficulty, though" ?
06:13:15 <oklopol> maybe the circuit is something different than i imagine
06:13:48 <ais523> oklopol: because if you can create an arbitrary circuit out of AND/OR/NOT/delay (even random delay), you can create a binary counter and a check circuit
06:13:51 <ais523> and use it to solve 3SAT
06:13:56 <quintopia> or even pick out a set of pixels and say "these particular pixels are not code. they are input."
06:14:29 <oklopol> but usually if you can make arbitrary evaluate-only circuits, you get P completeness (you get any computation, but it's deterministic), or if the circuit has loops, you get PSPACE-hardness (because you can run any computation in the polynomial space that the logspace transducer gave you in the form of the circuit)
06:14:35 <ais523> quintopia: because it doesn't make sense, for a particular program, for its data storage to be proportional in the size of the input, because the input has a fixed size
06:14:41 <ais523> being a specific set of pixels
06:14:51 <oklopol> because you can also check QSAT
06:14:57 <ais523> oklopol: good, I was wondering if it was also PSPACE-hard
06:15:05 <ais523> but didn't know how to prove it
06:15:29 <ais523> quintopia: PSPACE-hardness is one of the highest computational classes an FSM can have, so I think the language is fulfilling its purpose pretty well
06:15:52 <oklopol> yeah circuits don't get higher than that
06:15:55 <quintopia> ais523: okay imagine that the circuit family definition expands in a particular way, so that every time you add one pixel of input, you add a fixed number of other pixels that serve that pixel's input?
06:16:18 <ais523> quintopia: then it's an LBA, agreed
06:16:27 <quintopia> i thought we were talking about circuit families all along here and now i find out you were talking about one particular circuit
06:17:04 <ais523> this is the "input via preprocessor" idea I explained above
06:17:33 <quintopia> you could call it that. or you could just call it "the definition of the circuit family"
06:19:00 <quintopia> anyway, what if adding a pixel of input required adding a circuit proportional in size to the depth of the circuit you're adding to and increasing the depth by 1, so that the circuit size grows quadratically with input size? what is that?
06:19:48 * oklopol mumbles something about logspace-uniform circuit families
06:20:19 <ais523> wow, so it seems that the strongest known "P≠NP"-like result in the normal chain of complexity classes is "NL≠PSPACE"
06:20:23 * oklopol has been reading too much complexity theory lately
06:20:28 <ais523> that's… not a very strong result
06:20:28 <quintopia> ais523: so should i just say it can "probably" allow the creation of PSPACE-complete circuit families?
06:20:40 <ais523> quintopia: you can say that it's PSPACE-hard
06:20:56 <ais523> actually, I think it's trivially PSPACE-complete
06:21:29 <oklopol> ais523: the thing is in the usual chain, there's only a "space steps" exponential jumps apart, and "time steps" exponential jumps apart.
06:21:30 <ais523> given that oklopol proved it PSPACE-hard and it obviously doesn't take more than nondetrminstic polynomial space to simulate
06:21:41 <oklopol> the thing is, we cannot compare space and time in a nontrivial way
06:22:03 <ais523> well PSPACE is know to be a subset of EXPTIME
06:22:22 <oklopol> however, we have stronger separation results than just that an adding an exponential amount of space gives you new languages
06:22:47 <ais523> I'm not very good at complexity theory
06:22:55 <ais523> like, I know the very basics, just not much more than that
06:23:21 <oklopol> well i know more than the basics, but it's more of a hobby for me
06:23:34 <coppro> ais523: I thought we at least had P != PSPACE
06:23:52 <oklopol> (although we're probably gonna publish some gadget stuff soon)
06:23:55 <ais523> coppro: not according to Wikipedia, apparently that's still an open problem
06:23:58 <coppro> and definitely have P != EXPTIME, right?
06:24:00 <oklopol> coppro: we don't have that
06:24:08 <oklopol> P != EXPTIME because both are time classes
06:24:12 <ais523> yeah, you have P≠EXPTIME
06:24:31 <ais523> P=PSPACE would be even more surprising than P=NP, of course
06:24:33 <quintopia> i know how to prove Savitch's Theorem and...I know Dick Lipton's theorem about how the polynomial hierarchy collapses, but I don't recall the proof since it's been so long since I was in his class.
06:24:48 <oklopol> P vs NP? no one knows because they are different types of classes. P vs PSPACE? no one knows because they are different types of classes. (except for trivial relations)
06:25:00 <oklopol> similarly for quantum stuff, but now there are no comparisons...
06:25:28 <oklopol> interestingly, randomness can be compared in nontrivial ways
06:25:37 <oklopol> (you come up with fun ways to approximate sizes of sets)
06:26:10 <coppro> There exists an oracle separation between BQP and BPP at least
06:26:17 <coppro> which is actually kinda surprising
06:26:36 <oklopol> yeah oracle separations exist for many things
06:27:53 <oklopol> i don't really know what BQP is
06:28:01 <coppro> BPP except with a quantum computer
06:28:12 <oklopol> but it's coming up soon in my complexity theory bedtime stories book
06:28:23 <coppro> huh, P_{CTC} (deterministic computations with closed timelike curves) = PSPACE
06:29:12 <oklopol> oh i guess that's basically what i said about circuits with self-loops
06:29:13 <quintopia> at the very least, it's obvious that P_{CTC} contains NP
06:30:22 <ais523> draughts is EXPTIME-complete? that's surprising
06:30:56 <quintopia> oklopol: i'm not your CAS. invert your own damn matrices.
06:31:03 <ais523> isn't that just linear programming?
06:31:29 <ais523> you could do it without matrices
06:31:34 <ais523> oklopol: Computer Algebra System
06:31:38 <ais523> like Maple or Mathematica
06:32:03 <oklopol> HE DOESN'T EVEN SPECIFY THE FIELD, HOW ARE THE STUDENTS SUPPOSED TO GUESS
06:32:16 <quintopia> ais523: doing elimination of large systems by hand is annoying. so is taking determinants. so is taking inverses. so, no, use a CAS.
06:32:19 <ais523> that particular problem, I'd guess it's rational numbers
06:32:47 <ais523> quintopia: that thing isn't large enough that I'd be annoyed at having to use elimination or substitution on it
06:32:49 <oklopol> quintopia: there's no fourth equation
06:32:53 <coppro> it's clearly the finite field of order 23
06:32:56 <oklopol> that's why this is problem 6 already.
06:33:38 <quintopia> oklopol: so your answer is supposed to be another equation?
06:34:02 <oklopol> "find solutions" probably means "give the solution set in a more explicit form"
06:34:11 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 28m 37s ago: see oklopol in logs
06:34:22 <oklopol> i just said something about RE vs open
06:34:30 <Bike> a good cas oughta be able to do that shit for ya
06:34:39 <Bike> or matlab or whateverthefuck
06:34:59 <Bike> making people do matrix computation by hand is pointless and cruel.
06:35:50 <quintopia> oklopol: the solution set should be a line right??????????????????????????????????
06:36:35 <oklopol> the typical solution will be 1-dimensional, yes
06:36:53 <oklopol> i have no idea about this particular one yet
06:37:35 <oklopol> it cannot be unique, but it can be also two or three dimensional in theory
06:39:37 <quintopia> but those equations LOOK LIKE THEY ARE PROBABLY INDEPENDENT
06:40:06 <quintopia> why are you reading this book oklopol
06:40:07 <Bike> this reminds me that i didn't know until a few months ago that solving systems of polynomials is A Hard Problem
06:40:23 <Bike> because, i don't know, i'm an idiot probably
06:40:29 <oklopol> if someone asks you if a matrix is invertible, you can always safely say yes
06:40:41 <Bike> i knew a fun fact about that...
06:41:01 <quintopia> oklopol: is the zero matrix invertible???????????????????
06:41:16 <oklopol> but you will encounter that during your lifetime with 0 probability, even if you live forever.
06:41:25 <shachaf> oerjan: Right, so it's more complicated than "finite union", I guess.
06:41:28 <oklopol> assuming you only look at real matrices
06:41:29 <Bike> i think it was like, if you have the set of matrices with normal random entries around zero, then the average matrix is singular and the singular matrices are measure zero
06:41:59 <quintopia> you meant "if someone asks you if a randomly selected real matrix is invertible..."
06:42:00 <Bike> i guess it probably doesn't matter if they're normal
06:42:22 <Bike> every time you analyze a joke a frog dies, quintopia, and they are an important part of many ecosystems.
06:43:01 <quintopia> was that a joke?????? oklohelpol!!!!
06:44:32 <Bike> the joke being that the singular matrices are generally measure zero, but you're still going to run into them because mathematicians don't sample uniformly, they look for the most pathological bullshit possible :p
06:44:48 <oklopol> yes, like the all zero matrix
06:44:57 <oklopol> where do they come up with that stuff!
06:45:00 <Bike> the bullshit matrix
06:45:34 <oklopol> ...it seems i have yet to solve my equation
06:52:46 <oklopol> (i got {(7,-1,3,0) + u(28,-9,1,1) | u \in \R\} as the set of solutions)
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07:35:26 <Sgeo> Screw concatenativity, I want mixfix
07:36:54 <Sgeo> 1 > 2 if [ "Math broke" print ] [ "Math didn't break" print ]
07:37:29 <Sgeo> Words could take in both a past stack and a future stack
07:38:21 <myname> Sgeo: without the print it would actually look nice
07:39:11 <Sgeo> Hmm, what's wrong with the print? But this should be valid too
07:39:23 <Sgeo> 1 > 2 if [ "Math broke" ] [ "Math didn't break" ] print
07:40:02 <Sgeo> Hmm... if print took a future argument instead, this would kind of not work
07:40:16 <Sgeo> print 1 > 2 if [ "Math broke" ] [ "Math didn't break" ]
07:40:38 <Sgeo> print might be satisfied by the result of 1 > 2, which I don't want
07:40:59 <Sgeo> Thank you myname
07:41:12 <myname> just make booleans unprintable :p
07:41:20 <myname> who needs that anyways
08:03:55 <mroman> You could use paratheses
08:04:06 <mroman> print (1 > 2 if ["Math broke"] ["Math didn't break"]
08:04:41 <mroman> where stuff in parantheses are treated as regular arguments in any other language
08:04:53 <mroman> that way you can write 5 6 + (concatenativ/stackish)
08:05:07 <mroman> or + (5 6) or possibly even + (5) (6)
08:06:00 <mroman> i.e you delay the function and evaluate the stack of the expression in the parantheses first
08:06:03 <mroman> and then run the function
08:07:49 <fizzie> Uh, any ideas? I have this gstreamer command line that used to work; it involves a multifilesink location='frame%08 err, never mind, I see the problem.
08:08:54 <fizzie> (Was supposed to be frame%08d.jpg but had written frame%08.jpg instead -- it generated the files "frame (nil)g", "frame 0x1g", "frame 0x2g", and so on.)
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08:19:49 <fizzie> "giblib warning: couldn't load font yudit/12, attempting to fall back to fixed. giblib warning: failed to even load fixed! Attempting to find any font. feh ERROR: Couldn't load font to draw a message" huh
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08:33:58 <quintopia> lol, i just realized that the Karma page on the wiki still says it is not known whether it is Turing-complete
08:34:50 <Bike> fizzie: does it actually say 'feh'
08:34:52 <quintopia> and I just found a file on my computer from March 2009 that contains an implementation of BCT in Karma
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08:57:44 <ski> oklopol : sounds ok
08:58:32 <ski> (the RE and coRE stufF)
08:58:45 <shachaf> ski: Hmm, did you see the question I asked earlier about that?
09:00:09 <mauke> Bike: feh is a program
09:00:41 <mauke> % = start of format specifier
09:01:02 <mauke> 0 = set the zero flag
09:01:14 <mauke> 8 = set minimum field width to 8
09:01:26 <mauke> . = equivalent to .0, i.e. set precision to 0
09:02:01 <mauke> j = length modifier (the following format refers to an intmax_t/uintmax_t)
09:02:14 <mauke> p = void * pointer
09:03:15 <mauke> I'm pretty sure 0, .0, and j are invalid/undefined with p
09:03:50 <mauke> and passing an int where a void * is expected is also undefined behavior
09:04:12 <mauke> but what you end up with is integers printed as memory addresses as if by %8p
09:04:32 <mauke> oh, and the g is just a g
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09:10:24 <shachaf> mauke: Is if (argv[0] && argv[0][0]) { Prog = argv[0]; } a standard idiom for you?
09:13:20 <shachaf> I don't know. Does that exist anywhere else?
09:44:55 <oklopol> ski: i mainly meant that i've more often seen arithmetical hierarchy terminology used for this stuff
09:45:26 <oklopol> so like \Pi^0_1 instead of coRE
09:45:54 <oklopol> (not that there's a difference in meaning)
09:48:15 <ski> shachaf : no
09:51:40 <shachaf> it was https://plus.google.com/+ShachafBen-Kiki/posts/Bt4CxtttYxP
09:51:52 <shachaf> I don't know how much of that was brought up in the discussion here.
09:55:43 <ski> shachaf : perhaps you could repeat the question ?
09:55:46 * ski . o O ( re "split", <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_%28category_theory%29> )
09:56:04 <coppro> someone point me at a language that we don't know if it's TC or not
09:56:47 <ski> a retract situation consists of one morphism `s : A -> B' and one morphism `r : B -> A', satisfying `r . s = id_A'
09:57:08 <ski> `r' is said to be a retraction (of `s'), and `s' is said to be a section (of `r')
09:57:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: r': not found
09:57:42 <ski> if we define `i = s . r', then `i . i = s . r . s . r = s . id_A . r = s . r = i', so `i' is then an idempotent
09:58:24 <ski> (in a retract situation, `r' is also known as a "split epi(morphism)/epic" and `s' as a "split mono(morphism)")
09:59:21 <ski> given any idempotent `i', if we can find `r' and `s' such that `r . s = id' (a retract situation), and `s . r = i', then `i' is called a split idempotent, we say that `i' splits
09:59:31 <ski> shachaf : perhaps that helps ?
10:01:19 <shachaf> That's yet another thing that's called "split", not the epi or the mono but their composition (in the other direction)
10:01:50 <shachaf> Oh, maybe it's being used as an adjective.
10:02:20 <shachaf> The epi and mono are "split" from the idempotent.
10:02:46 <ski> (that's as far as i understand it)
10:02:50 <shachaf> Anyway, the question in a rough form is in the Google+ post above.
10:03:27 <shachaf> I will probably delete the post later, as I do.
10:03:43 <shachaf> Someone commented so I'd feel a bit bad deleting it. :-(
10:06:24 <ski> shachaf : did you see Martín Escardó's "Synthetic topology of data types and classical spaces" in 2004-11 at <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/> ?
10:08:47 <ski> "Semidecidable property ≈ open set" is mentioned in chapter 1
10:09:25 <shachaf> Oh, well, I've heard that analogy before, sure.
10:10:58 <shachaf> Is that exactly what I'm trying to get at here?
10:13:08 <ski> "Given a family `p_i(x)' of properties, in order to observe that the disjunction `\/_i p_i(x)' holds it suffices to observe that one of the disjuncts `p_i(x)' holds. Hence arbitrary disjunctions of observable properties are observable. ..(some qualifications to that).."
10:13:56 <ais523> btw, everyone: http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow
10:14:06 <ais523> not bad for 2 and a bit days' work :-)
10:14:23 <shachaf> Qualifications described in a later chapter in that PDF, I guess.
10:14:42 <shachaf> Thanks for the link, I'll probably read it tomorrow or something.
10:15:16 <coppro> ais523: what is "sufficiently large that the language remains Turing complete"? doesn't that need to be unbounded?
10:15:38 <ais523> coppro: no, it just needs to be large enough to implement at least one interpreter for a Turing complete language
10:16:19 <ais523> and I have one that uses 5 stacks, 20 symbols, 41 rules
10:16:33 <ais523> the program it interprets is input using the initial contents of the stack, which interpreters can't put bounds on
10:16:52 <coppro> also, I love the markdown
10:17:13 <oklopol> "This is a program implements a cyclic tag system in StackFlow."
10:17:37 <ais523> btw, it's untested because I don't have an interp yet
10:18:27 <ais523> incidentally, is StackFlow the first esolang designed for literate programming? it may be
10:19:21 <ais523> coppro: I'm not sure what made me think of Markdown-based syntax, but when I did, the opportunity was too good to pass up
10:28:41 * shachaf goes to sleep, should have gone 2 hours ago
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10:51:04 <Sgeo> (About Time Walk)
10:51:06 <Sgeo> "Combos well with a deck."
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12:10:19 <Taneb> In Mergesort, does it particularly matter how you divide the list?
12:11:22 <ais523> Taneb: no, although particularly stupid divisions (like always dividing into 1 element, and the rest) hurt the computational class
12:11:39 <ais523> *computational complexity
12:12:10 <Taneb> Okay, so just alternating elements is fine?
12:13:20 <ais523> a good way to think about it is this: if a sort algorithm cares what order the list was in originally, it's probably broken
12:14:04 <Taneb> I have a Haskell function called "notQuickSort", which, true to its name, is not quicksort
12:15:02 <ais523> there are a lot of functions that aren't quicksort
12:15:09 <fizzie> ais523: I wouldn't call a (comparison-)sort function that's O(n log n) worst-case but O(n) best-case for an already-sorted list "broken".
12:15:29 <ais523> fizzie: it's O(n²) worst case
12:15:41 <ais523> I wouldn't call that "caring", in that case
12:16:00 <ais523> in the sense of the output being different
12:16:16 <Taneb> ais523, I was aiming to write Quicksort, but I wasn't including the pivot except in the singleton list case
12:16:32 <ais523> so the pivots just disappear?
12:18:13 <Taneb> Yeah, it was me being stupid. It's fixed now, though
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14:13:33 <mauke> here's a php puzzle: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/291607?tx=on
14:38:55 <fizzie> "virtual bool aku::PhnReader::next_frame(): Assertion `m_current_frame >= m_cur_phn.start' failed."
14:42:54 <boily> fungot: aku PhnReader'nglui Cthulhu fhtagn?
14:42:54 <fungot> boily: m-- m-1 doesn't work?
14:43:15 <boily> fungot: no it doesn't, the m_cur_phn.start fails the assertion.
14:43:15 <fungot> boily: how big was the code
14:43:18 <fungot> boily: and sorry, no :) or :(? it would be
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14:44:10 <fizzie> (It's not all that big.)
14:44:27 <fizzie> I think it doesn't like a gap in this file, is all.
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15:24:27 <FireFly> fungot: you should fix the code
15:24:36 <fungot> FireFly: give the short example, or a file:// url which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
15:25:22 <FireFly> I'm fairly sure fungot is sentinent
15:25:23 <fungot> FireFly: so cl and elisp have it, but i discovered that the library system is intended to provide a way to make
15:25:42 <FireFly> oh yeah, lisp is popular in AI research
15:32:35 <boily> FireFly: it is a well known fact that fungot is sentient. blame fizzie.
15:32:35 <fungot> boily: in soviet russia, crow scares you!!
15:33:31 <FireFly> fungot: in regular #esoteric, you scare me
15:33:32 <fungot> FireFly: and it was for computer science, and forcer isn't just going to ask you earlier. i mean even if he explains lots of dynamic libraries :) you already call two internal lambdas, just make your cffi and use mpi...
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16:35:15 <fizzie> fungot: What, exactly, do you believe?
16:35:15 <fungot> fizzie: the compiler is happy, " as well" you only need one! :)
16:42:08 * boily gives fungot a loch ness plushie
16:42:09 <fungot> boily: well as i can't use a serialiser while it's already in use)
16:43:50 <mrhmouse> what are you serializing, fungot?
16:43:50 <fungot> mrhmouse: i'd like to have the thread stay alive and accept future messages, i get pretty fnord
16:44:45 <boily> pretty fnords. heh ^^
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16:53:57 <boily> `ello Phantom_Hoover
16:54:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/ello
17:00:45 <HackEgo> tesheaf gaya reprovemon egellorguer kalm gester dire warpe ostv fedeipenne
17:01:26 <mrhmouse> I feel like "tesheaf" should produce "teshellaf"
17:02:31 <mrhmouse> Ah, I see the issue. It's operating on the list all at once
17:03:22 <mrhmouse> `run for word in $(words 10); do ello $word; done
17:03:32 <HackEgo> holtykkellabellon \ appomellorstag \ fimello \ gaffenello \ albrevello \ lebranello \ wasschedello \ clepellosit \ damello \ acarello
17:04:11 <fizzie> fungot: It can get pretty fnord if you're trying to serialize a thread, yes.
17:04:12 <fungot> fizzie: am almost done downloading it. ( which i don't use it any more
17:04:51 <mrhmouse> fungot: then why are you downloading it?
17:04:51 <fungot> mrhmouse: it's _not_ a useful observation if the means of a lambda would mean having a regular expression srfi defined actual regular expressions, do it well
17:22:09 <mrhmouse> Are there any esoteric templating/markup languages?
17:22:30 <mrhmouse> Specifically, ones that translate to HTML?
17:26:02 <FireFly> fungot: downloading srfis, eh+
17:26:02 <fungot> FireFly: actually i think it's just so that i don't
17:26:14 <FireFly> fungot: oh, okay, not downloading SRFIs then
17:26:14 <fungot> FireFly: yay. i will correct this anyway, it should only work on a ppc, then? lists?
17:26:41 <FireFly> Pretty sure you're talking about srfi-1, fungot
17:26:41 <fungot> FireFly: just that when i tried
17:27:22 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
17:27:44 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs default: --eng-1M
17:28:04 <FireFly> `run words --german-medical 10 | xargs -n 1 ello
17:28:11 <HackEgo> beridiertellome \ akzellon \ gregelseptellom \ pertemototelloniumcin \ retrinmesierello \ silandsello \ lungseinfallello \ pellonsen \ helllyopiege \ krebello
17:28:16 <Vorpal> mrhmouse, I haven't heard of any. Not sure how you could go about creating an interesting one either. Interesting idea though.
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17:44:18 <oklopol> party on mothafucka party on
17:44:20 <mauke> The party is now on.
17:45:14 <int-e> what was the ocular pattern for myndzi?
17:45:35 <int-e> (or firework, or whatever that flowery thing is supposed to be)
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17:46:15 <mauke> U+1F440 (f0 9f 91 80): EYES [👀]
17:46:21 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
17:46:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: party: not found
17:46:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: celebrate: not found
17:48:08 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
17:49:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rot0: not found
17:49:52 <int-e> `cat `type -p fsck`
17:49:56 <HackEgo> cat: `type -p fsck`: No such file or directory
17:50:47 <FreeFull> `ln -s /usr/bin/cat /hackego/bin/rot0
17:50:49 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
17:50:53 <FreeFull> `run ln -s /usr/bin/cat /hackego/bin/rot0
17:50:55 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `/hackego/bin/rot0': No such file or directory
17:51:04 <FreeFull> `run ln -s /hackego/bin/rot0 /usr/bin/cat
17:51:05 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `/usr/bin/cat': Read-only file system
17:51:10 <int-e> `run cat `type -p fsck`
17:51:50 <int-e> methinks that will not terminate
17:52:12 <mauke> ln operand order is like cp
17:52:32 <int-e> `run ls -l /hackego/bin/rot256
17:53:06 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /hackego/bin/rot256: No such file or directory
17:53:17 <int-e> `run ls -l `type -p rot256`
17:53:19 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Sep 25 13:06 /hackenv/bin/rot256 -> /bin/echo
17:53:33 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
17:53:33 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
17:53:34 <myndzi> /| c.c |\ /< | | /< c.c >\ | |\|/< c.c /|
17:53:39 <int-e> FreeFull: tsk, you had the wrong directory.
17:54:25 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
17:56:00 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
17:56:08 <FreeFull> I have rot0 in there but HackEgo errors when I try to run it
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17:56:18 <int-e> `wl en de hippopotamus
17:56:23 <HackEgo> bash: rot0: command not found
17:56:30 <FreeFull> `run /hackenv/bin/rot0 /dev/urandom
17:56:32 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/rot0: No such file or directory
17:56:34 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 12 Jan 16 17:54 bin/rot0 -> /usr/bin/cat
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17:57:36 <FreeFull> Made it echo rather than cat anyway
17:58:23 -!- monotone_ has changed nick to polytone.
17:58:42 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/wl", line 52, in <module> \ q = query(continue_id) \ File "/hackenv/bin/wl", line 44, in query \ response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen \ return _opener.open(url, data, timeout) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/
17:59:32 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
17:59:49 <int-e> (It was meant to do that.)
17:59:57 <int-e> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/wl is a fun read
18:00:54 <int-e> FireFly: you have to find any wikipedia page with empty 'languages' block.
18:03:33 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
18:03:55 <int-e> `wl sv en "Pero micca"
18:03:56 <FireFly> `run wl sv en "Pero micca"
18:03:56 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:03:58 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
18:03:59 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/wl", line 52, in <module> \ q = query(continue_id) \ File "/hackenv/bin/wl", line 44, in query \ response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen \ return _opener.open(url, data, timeout) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/
18:04:15 <int-e> ``````````````````````````````````````````````````
18:04:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `````````````````````````````````````````````````: not found
18:06:20 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
18:08:11 <HackEgo> env: PATH: No such file or directory
18:08:20 <FireFly> I guess you have to grep it
18:08:26 <FireFly> oh, right, it takes a command to run
18:09:16 <boily> int-e: huh? a special `thank case?
18:11:15 <int-e> `perl -e'$,=",";print @ARGV,"\n"' $PATH
18:11:17 <HackEgo> Scalar found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "'$,=",";print @ARGV,"\n"' $PATH" \ (Missing operator before $PATH?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, next char $ \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
18:11:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ̀thanks: not found
18:11:40 <int-e> `` perl -e'$,=",";print @ARGV,"\n"' $PATH
18:11:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin,
18:13:26 <int-e> boily: Apparently, though I have no idea why.
18:13:42 <int-e> `` cat $(type -p thankjames)
18:14:33 <mauke> `` echo ${PATH//:/ }
18:14:36 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin /opt/python27/bin /opt/ghc/bin /usr/bin /bin
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18:16:45 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
18:18:01 <HackEgo> bash: than: command not found
18:20:40 <HackEgo> info: Writing node (dir)Top... \ File: dir,Node: TopThis is the top of the INFO tree \ \ This (the Directory node) gives a menu of major topics. \ Typing "q" exits, "?" lists all Info commands, "d" returns here, \ "h" gives a primer for first-timers, \ "mEmacs<Return>" visits the Emacs manual, etc. \ \ In Emacs, you can click mouse bu
18:24:14 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
18:25:01 <FireFly> I guess it didn't like that
18:25:04 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal \ [1;24r[?25h[?8c[?25h[?0c[27m[24m[0m[H[J[?25l[?1c[2;1H[1m[34m~ [3;1H~ [4;1H~
18:25:06 <int-e> `cat /hackenv/share/maze.c
18:25:08 <HackEgo> main() { asm("xor %edi, %edi\n" "inc %edi\n" "mov %rsp, %rsi\n" "go: movl $0xb195e2, (%rsi)\n" "rdtsc\n" "and $1, %al\n" "add %al, 2(%rsi)\n" "mov %edi, %eax\n" "xor %edx, %edx\n" "mov $3, %dl\n" "syscall\n" "jmp go"); }
18:25:28 <FireFly> hackenv is cwd I'm fairly sure
18:26:45 * boily unsticks HackEgo with his trusty mapole
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18:38:01 <metasepia> CYUL 161800Z 21006KT 15SM FEW030 FEW120 M01/M08 A2996 RMK CU1AC2 CU TR SLP147
18:38:56 <ion> http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1336/15/1336155252526.jpg
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18:51:01 <Slereah> I should go back to dorf fortress
18:51:33 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Hexhal.
18:52:54 <boily> `run sed -i s/Hexhal/Yorj/ wisdom/tanea
19:04:32 <boily> (I like the sound of “Yorj”. /jɔʁʒ/)
19:05:46 <Slereah> "Oh this looks like a great place to build a fortress!"
19:10:42 <boily> ~eval "With an updated cabal..."
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19:34:03 <int-e> "Minecrafs", is there a point to that typo?
19:34:24 <HackEgo> You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
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19:58:05 <FireFly> the same point as with the other typns in that line
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20:10:01 <boily> typns typns typns typns typns... ♪
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20:35:35 <mrhmouse> boily: I can't help but read that as a Patapon chant
20:35:45 <metasepia> Patapon is a video game published for the PlayStation Portable handheld game console combining gameplay features of a rhythm game and a god game.
20:36:19 <mrhmouse> You do chants to spur your little force of warriors on in battle, or to give them commands such as "retreat".
20:37:38 <boily> I don't have a PSP :(
20:37:59 <boily> I want to control little characters by rhythming unpronounçable syllables!
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20:39:47 <mrhmouse> boily: I don't own a PSP either, I've only seen the game and thought it interesting.
20:40:59 * boily scands “tnuctip tnuctip tnuctip tnuctipun”
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20:53:08 <FireFly> I don't own a PSP either, but I have an annoyingly long list of PSP games that I'd like to play
20:53:33 * FireFly swats Nippon Ichi for not making more games for Nintendo consoles
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21:24:10 <boily> ooookay... something weird happened to the metasepia logs. now everything is in bold light blue...
21:25:18 <FireFly> `run echo -e '\e[1;31mhi boily'
21:25:42 <boily> it worked. bold red.
21:26:00 <boily> `run echo -e '\e[0mnormality!'
21:26:13 <FireFly> Maybe you want to strip control sequences
21:26:25 <boily> maybe I really want to strip that stuff.
21:26:35 <boily> oh well. time to disappear in the Great Cold Outside.
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21:26:59 <mauke> `run echo $'\004aare you using irssi?\004a'
21:27:54 * FireFly wonders what ^D would be mnemonic for
21:28:10 <FireFly> oh, maybe some kind of extended colour thing?
21:28:20 <FireFly> considering it's one after ^C
21:28:57 <FireFly> Most of the other IRC formatting control-codes are mnemonic, so I figure ^D would be too
21:29:03 -!- Bike has joined.
21:30:14 <mauke> `run echo $'are you using \004</irssi\004g?'
21:31:30 <FireFly> I wish I was, now, since I'm curious what I'm missing out on
21:32:02 <mauke> \004</ is bold red
21:33:00 <int-e> well, I'm seeing red ^D for 004 :)
21:34:10 <int-e> using irssi with http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/colorhack.pl
21:35:14 <Bike> "The eval function works with text variables to implement a powerful text macro facility." hey Gregor did your evil eval paper mention matlab because i've got some choice quotes here
21:38:08 <Taneb> IT IS TIME TO TRY TO BAKE A CAKE
21:39:05 <Bike> A class of functions, called "function functions," works with nonlinear functions of a scalar variable. That is, one function works on another function.
21:56:25 * ski . o O ( `@(x,v) x .* v + w' )
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21:58:50 <shachaf> ski: thanks for the reference to that paper yesterday, looks relevant to something or other that i'm probably trying to figure out
21:59:01 <shachaf> will know more after reading it
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22:07:11 <shachaf> "Weak Limited Principle of Omniscience" is a p. hesitant name
22:07:34 <ski> i don't recall whether i asked you whether you had seen Steven Vicker's "Topology Via Logic"
22:07:40 <ski> shachaf : hehe
22:08:32 -!- nchambers has joined.
22:08:37 <ski> also "Lesser Limited Principle of Omniscience"
22:08:44 <ski> (not the same thing)
22:08:46 <shachaf> ski: I have seen it -- we talked about "topological systems" as related to Chu spaces at one point.
22:09:10 <shachaf> (I don't remember who recommended it to me before, but thanks for the recommendation if it was you.)
22:11:40 -!- DTSCode-Work has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:12:03 <ski> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_principle_of_omniscience>,<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_counterexample#Brouwerian_counterexamples>,<http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/principle+of+omniscience>,<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mathematics-constructive/>
22:12:21 <ski> also LEM/PEM is called PO (Principle of Omniscience) by Bishop
22:16:35 <ski> (and Markov's Principle, MP, is considered an Omniscience Principle (though not a Brouwerian one, but a Markovian one). so reducing something to it amounts to a Markovian (counter-)example, rather than a Brouwerian (counter-)example)
22:17:34 <ski> shachaf : did the Escardó paper mention WLPO, or which ?
22:17:55 <shachaf> http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/universe-indiscrete.pdf did
22:18:23 <shachaf> Which is related to a different question I was asking at one point.
22:19:13 <ski> hm, interesting, haven't read this one before
22:22:17 <ski> <http://www.infoq.com/presentations/nimrod>,<http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1vdo3l/nimrod_a_new_approach_to_metaprogramming/>
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22:29:47 <shachaf> whoa, Andrej Bauer responded to my post
22:30:48 <shachaf> "There is another, fancy aprroach to this, called synthetic topology. Instead of doing all this computable stuff we just do ordinary topology, but we do it in intuitionistic logic. Then we can interpret such intuitionistic topology in any topos. When we pick the effective topos, we get back exactly computable topology."
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22:32:58 <Taneb> I was going to make a cake
22:33:17 <oerjan> so is there a Greater Principle of Ignorance
22:39:07 <oerjan> apparently there's a Hawking's Principle of Ignorance.
22:39:23 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w\+fuck\w*" || espletive
22:40:30 <mrhmouse> is 5000 too high? it (potentially) reduces the number of invocations, but I wasn't sure how much work `words is doing
22:40:57 <FireFly> never heard about that language
22:41:25 <FireFly> `run for f in $(seq 10); do espletive; done | xargs
22:41:28 <mrhmouse> Hrm. Seems to be stuck there. Earlier I got oozlybubblefuck, which doesn't appear on the wiki.
22:41:41 <HackEgo> blangintfuck brainfuck madbrainfuck befucks minifuck hydrainfuck alpainfuck infuck drainfuck rainfuck norfuck brainfuck
22:42:21 <Bike> a good program.
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22:42:41 <Bike> maybe it should have infix fucks (infux) too
22:42:54 -!- augur has joined.
22:42:59 <mrhmouse> Bike: it should. "\w\+fuck\w*"
22:43:14 <FireFly> it matched befucks at least
22:45:41 <Bike> oh missed that.
22:47:46 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/espletive/exec espletive/' bin/espletive
22:47:59 <HackEgo> brainfuck \ norfuck \ brainfucks
22:49:07 <oerjan> you cannot exec while you're still running other commands in the pipeline :P
22:49:25 <oerjan> you _shouldn't_ be doing that, should you
22:50:43 <int-e> `` while ! words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w\+fuck\w*"; do :; done
22:51:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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22:53:07 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/fuck/${1-fuck}' bin/espletive
22:53:09 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 16: unterminated `s' command
22:53:24 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/fuck/${1-fuck}/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
22:53:28 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w\+${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive
22:54:07 <HackEgo> crainfuck thatefuck celiumbrainfuck minifuck brainfuck ballfuck memfuck
22:54:31 <HackEgo> cat: repeat: No such file or directory
22:54:45 <HackEgo> args=$* \ for f in $(seq $1); do ${args[@]:1} ; done | xargs
22:54:53 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/$/"$@"/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
22:54:57 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w\+${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive"$@"
22:55:08 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/"/ "/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
22:55:12 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w\+${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive"$@"
22:55:35 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/"\$/ "$/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
22:55:39 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w\+${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive "$@"
22:56:03 <int-e> no funk? or did I mess this up completely now?
22:57:07 <nooodl> i could imagine no \w+funk
22:57:35 <mrhmouse> someone with better sed skills than me should change that + to a *
22:58:09 <oerjan> `run words --esolangs 5000 | wc
22:58:14 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/\+/*/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
22:58:14 <oerjan> `run words --esolangs 5000 | wc
22:58:21 <oerjan> `run words --esolangs 5000 | wc
22:58:21 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w\*${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive "$@"
22:58:37 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/\\*/*/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
22:58:41 <HackEgo> *words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w\*${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive "$@"
22:58:51 <mrhmouse> int-e: methinks \* is not the same as *
22:59:00 <oerjan> ok if it only has one line, wtf does it sometimes print more than one hit
22:59:02 <int-e> mrhmouse: it's not.
22:59:07 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/\\\*/*/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
22:59:11 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive "$@"
22:59:29 <mrhmouse> oerjan: you mean when we were running it in loops?
22:59:47 <HackEgo> infuck wordfuck migolfuck brainfuck memfuck golfuck norfuck
22:59:54 <oerjan> mrhmouse: no, it did that sometimes even when run once
22:59:56 <int-e> can words --esolangs 5000 fail?
23:00:14 <mrhmouse> int-e: it can, hence the recursive tail
23:00:41 <int-e> `` for i in $(seq 10); do words --esolangs 5000 > /dev/null || echo fail!; done
23:00:43 <mrhmouse> well, `grep can fail... I don't actually know if `words can fail.
23:01:16 <int-e> I'm still confused how espletive can produce several words in a single run.
23:02:15 <mrhmouse> Didn't know about that `` shortcut for `run...
23:04:27 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive "$@"
23:04:34 <mrhmouse> It's because `words sometimes produces multiple lines
23:04:46 <mrhmouse> and sometimes more than one line matches the regex
23:04:53 <oerjan> `run words --esolangs 5000 | wc
23:04:53 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/-o/-o -m 1/' bin/expletive; cat bin/espletive
23:04:55 <HackEgo> sed: can't read bin/expletive: No such file or directory \ words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive "$@"
23:05:05 <oerjan> `run words --esolangs 5000 | wc
23:05:07 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/-o/-o -m 1/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
23:05:11 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o -m 1 "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive "$@"
23:05:19 <oerjan> mrhmouse: i haven't managed to make it do that...
23:05:39 <FireFly> `run words --esolangs 5000 | wc
23:05:55 <FireFly> What happened with my output
23:06:15 <int-e> `` echo a b c | grep -o '[^ ]'
23:06:23 <FireFly> `run words --esolangs 50 | wc
23:06:25 <int-e> `` echo a b c | grep -o -m 1 '[^ ]'
23:06:35 <int-e> so -m doesn't help. grmbl.
23:07:20 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/||/| head -1 ||/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
23:07:23 <oerjan> oh -o takes more than one hit?
23:07:24 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" | head -1 || espletive "$@"
23:07:49 <mrhmouse> from man grep: Print only the matched (non-empty) parts of a matching line, with each such part on a separate output line.
23:09:37 <mrhmouse> this proved more amusing than I thought it would...
23:10:31 <oerjan> (head might always succeed)
23:11:45 <mrhmouse> maybe after the recursive call?
23:12:22 <oerjan> the number of nested processes isn't going to reduce by this...
23:12:28 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/$/ | head -1/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
23:12:32 <HackEgo> words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" || espletive "$@" | head -1
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23:13:45 <int-e> We *could* turn it into a loop.
23:13:52 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:15:08 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/\(.*\)||.*|/while ! \1; do :; done |/' bin/espletive; cat bin/espletive
23:15:12 <HackEgo> while ! words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" ; do :; done | head -1
23:16:16 <shachaf> Now that Andrej Bauer commented on my post I don't want to delete it anymore. :-(
23:17:21 <int-e> oerjan: are you happier now?
23:18:32 <oerjan> sorry, all out of infernal cash
23:19:55 <FireFly> Now I want to make forthagonal
23:20:13 <oerjan> that does sound promising
23:21:24 <FireFly> `run for i in $(seq 5); do espletive gon; done | xargs
23:21:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:21:51 <HackEgo> shogonatorycombie thagonal pogonata pogonata thagonal
23:22:10 <HackEgo> redcodan iota zt xsm q-ball /// c-lon rever2pi bytejump nump redgree kayak tree aargfak p'' tri divzeros bf-pda tg that trits objector mine adjust tlwnn
23:22:54 <int-e> Oh well. Validation of arguments is left as an exercise to the first one to complain about this feature.
23:25:16 <oerjan> `` espletive '[0-9]\{2\}' # surely this is a feature
23:25:42 <int-e> Why am I not surprised?
23:26:35 <oerjan> int-e: istr searching for "sex" on the wiki and the only mention was ironically on Taneb's user page. although that was whole-word only.
23:29:37 <oerjan> well, not as a substring either on either of language or joke language lists
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00:34:39 <Taneb> oerjan, ironic considering my sexual orientation
00:42:20 <Taneb> Also, I have made a cake
00:42:25 <Taneb> It may or may not be edible
00:48:47 <oerjan> as long as it isn't yellowcake
00:55:31 <Taneb> I don't think it is
00:55:35 <Taneb> It ought to be marble cake
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00:58:05 * oerjan suddenly imagines using a 3d printer to place the light and dark batter precisely
01:04:27 <Taneb> Well, I have just removed it from the tin and it is the most... flat cake I have ever seen (excluding pancakes etc)
01:04:48 <oerjan> ok, 2d printer then hth
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01:12:44 <oerjan> i found a printer for printing _on_ cakes, but not one for the whole dough
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01:20:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/paste
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01:39:26 <HackEgo> cat: bin/wel: No such file or directory
01:39:28 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ \ import os \ import sys \ import json \ import urllib2 \ \ proxy_handler = urllib2.ProxyHandler({'http': os.environ['http_proxy']}) \ opener = urllib2.build_opener(proxy_handler) \ urllib2.install_opener(opener) \ \ def lose(): \ print 'You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!' \ sys.exit() \ \ def eels(): \
01:39:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/wl
01:40:30 <Taneb> oerjan, getting closer, http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/16/5315248/hershey-3d-systems-3d-printed-chocolate-candy-partnership
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01:53:54 <oerjan> `run echo "echo Woof!" >bin/spot; chmod +x bin/spot
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02:17:02 <ion> The “This is a leading compression solution” picture. http://www.logitech.com/en-ca/webcam-communications/articles/9443
02:20:43 <oerjan> ion: clearly they misspelled "misleading" hth
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02:23:58 <pikhq> Looks like that's "compression" by xoring with another video.
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02:43:11 <Sgeo> I was in a Microsoft store recently
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03:14:48 <myndzi> the blocks are wavy like his shirt lol
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03:28:29 <oerjan> that command has been removed.
03:28:44 <quintopia> well how the hell do i search all channel logs
03:28:52 <quintopia> when i don't have access to my own logs
03:29:20 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen mqrius ever
03:30:35 -!- oerjan has set topic: Don't join if you're afraid of bots | 22nd IOCCC results: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2013 | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
03:31:20 <preflex> mqrius was last seen on ##javascript 1 year, 176 days, 13 hours, 51 minutes and 24 seconds ago, saying: How do I add a body to a document with javascript?
03:32:00 <oerjan> of course that depends on whether he's been in the same channel as preflex ...
03:32:55 <quintopia> but he is in another channel i'm in
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03:33:21 <quintopia> i wanted to cite him for helping on the language i'm adding to the wiki, but he has no wiki account so...
03:33:29 <oerjan> you can use /whois to check if someone is on freenode right now hth
03:34:15 <quintopia> i didn't want to know if he was on freenode. i wanted to know if he'd ever been here
03:34:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15150
03:35:32 <oerjan> THE KEYS ARE LIKE JUST NEXT TO EACH OTHER
03:35:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13870
03:36:26 <oerjan> `seen ... ever tends to time out if it's been too long since
03:36:28 <quintopia> yeah i'm getting a definite no vibe
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07:37:26 <myname> task in haskell: write a function largestOddDiv n that calculates the largest odd divisor of all even numbers up to n using list comprehension
07:37:33 <myname> result i got: largestOddDiv n=[x|j<-[0..(length [y|y<-[1..n] ,even y] -1)],x<-[1..(div n 2)],x==maxuneventeiler ([y|y<-[1..n] ,even y]!!j)]
07:37:41 <myname> most excellent troll ever
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08:20:28 <mroman> he could have at least done f x|odd x==x
08:23:08 <mroman> > let f = maximum $ [x|x<-[1..n], n `mod` x == 0, not . even $ x] in f 15
08:23:09 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> t0'
08:23:10 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
08:23:35 <mroman> > (maximum $ [x|x<-[1..n], n `mod` x == 0, not . even $ x]) $ 15
08:23:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> t0'
08:23:36 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
08:23:47 <mroman> Well... it works in my ghci .
08:24:32 <mroman> I'm wondering if I can write maximum as list comprehension too
08:25:07 <mroman> they are ordered anyways
09:11:07 <mauke> mroman: missing \n ->
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09:12:11 <shachaf> i should learn about topoi, i guess
09:12:17 <shachaf> oerjan: are you an expert thereon
09:12:42 <shachaf> ("thereon"? does that even make any sense?)
09:16:48 <mroman> > (\n -> maximum $ [x|x<-[1..n], n `mod` x == 0, not . even $ x]) $ 15
09:16:55 <mroman> > (\n -> maximum $ [x|x<-[1..n], n `mod` x == 0, not . even $ x]) $ 15876
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09:27:18 <mroman> myname: What are you actually?
09:27:43 <mroman> that you pose haskell tasks to others.
09:34:09 <myname> i am a teaching assistant
09:39:12 <mroman> I'd probably've trolled you too ;)
09:40:39 <mroman> If the tasks aren't really interesting I'd just obfuscate the code to make it so :)
09:42:15 <myname> thinking about letting them proof by induction at the blackboard ;)
09:43:57 <mroman> I don't know induction.
09:45:36 <Bike> if P is true of zero and P being true of n implies that it's also true of n+1, it's true of all positive integers
09:51:30 <mroman> that sentence is oddly formulated
09:51:47 <mroman> if P holds true for zero, n, and n+1 it implies, that P is true for all positive integers
09:53:23 <Bike> the point is "if it's true of a number it's true of the next number too"
09:53:34 <Bike> which is independent of whether it is actually true of any number.
09:53:46 <mroman> n is a positive integer
09:54:55 <Bike> n = 2, 2 and 3 are prime numbers, therefore all numbers are prime
09:55:07 <mroman> if P already holds for any number
09:55:12 <mroman> then n + 1 makes no sense :D
09:55:15 <Bike> that's what you're trying to prove!
09:56:02 <mroman> 2+1 is also a prime number
09:56:03 <Bike> but i mean hey keep saying crazy bullshit in response to my trying to help
09:56:44 <Bike> as you can see, a thing being true of a number and its successor doesn't imply that that succession relation is true of everything, or anything else.
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10:02:54 <myname> Bike: great example, i like it
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12:33:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oots: not found
12:34:01 <HackEgo> olist 939: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
12:40:39 <ski> shachaf : "Elementary Categories, Elementary Toposes" by Colin McLarty might be interesting
12:41:04 <ski> (it's a book)
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12:59:42 <boily> `espletive good espletive morning!
13:02:02 <int-e> `cat bin/espletive
13:02:03 <HackEgo> while ! words --esolangs 5000 | grep -o "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" ; do :; done | head -1
13:02:30 <int-e> apparently, there are no 'good' esolangs.
13:03:49 <int-e> (my fault, I patched that file yesterday)
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14:20:46 <FireFly> So ${foo-bar} expands to $foo if $foo is non-empty, else $bar
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14:31:06 <boily> FireFly: if you use “${foo-$bar}” with an empty foo, will it expand to the value of $bar, or the string “$bar”?
14:31:44 <FireFly> The former, apparently, at least in zsh
14:33:24 <FireFly> How much of bash's/zsh's arcane variable expansion syntax is spec'd by POSIX?
14:35:41 <FireFly> Ah, yes, that behaviour is spec'd apparently
14:36:09 <FireFly> "In each case that a value of word is needed (based on the state of parameter, as described below), word shall be subjected to tilde expansion, parameter expansion, command substitution, and arithmetic expansion."
14:38:08 <fizzie> When boily did a plain `espletive good espletive morning! like that, the entire "good espletive morning!" ended up in $1. (Not that it changes anything; there indeed are no 'good' esolangs. But the "no output" wasn't a proof of that.)
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14:41:06 <HackEgo> recurscript brainfuck lambleq sanshoop aargfak hack gechoon mon kayak arro triptinus sanshoop just bfjouse constuck rum forte 5-log mumobinary eta-juliet
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14:49:09 <boily> no good esolangs? I refuse to aknowledge that horrendous affirmation!
14:54:46 <fizzie> `run words --esolangs 12 | perl -ne '$,=" "; print map "good$_", split;' # well there's a dozen
14:54:48 <HackEgo> gooddoublefuck++ gooddumpfuck goodcrambler goodvar goodauo goodhargh! goodq-ref goodwhenemo goodalpl goodtri goodpeter goodsnus
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14:56:05 <mrhmouse> Ah, we changed espletive into a loop?
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15:09:26 <int-e> mrhmouse: no comment.
15:11:10 <mrhmouse> int-e: any clue what's wrong with `repeat? my bashing skills are weak.
15:11:38 <mrhmouse> It works for single digits (e.g. `repeat 5 foo) but fails for larger ones (e.g. `repeat 10 foo)
15:12:10 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/repeat: line 2: 0: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/repeat: line 2: 0: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/repeat: line 2: 0: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/repeat: line 2: 0: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/repeat: line 2: 0: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/repeat: line 2: 0: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/repeat: line 2: 0: com
15:13:58 <int-e> `` cat $(type -p repeat)
15:14:00 <HackEgo> args=$* \ for f in $(seq $1); do ${args[@]:1} ; done | xargs
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15:17:33 <int-e> `` echo 'cnt=$1; shift; for f in $(seq $cnt); do "$@"; done | xargs' > bin/repeat
15:17:45 <int-e> `repeat 10 espletive
15:17:46 <HackEgo> seq: invalid floating point argument: espletive \ Try `seq --help' for more information.
15:18:09 <quintopia> this is an exciting time and place to be eh?
15:18:13 <HackEgo> brainfuck intfuck golfuck brainfuck brainfuck brainfuck infuck migolfuck brainfuck infuck
15:18:33 <mrhmouse> int-e: your changes worked, it's just a slow script
15:18:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: vert: not found
15:19:17 <mrhmouse> `` repeat 9 espletive | sed "s/\s/\n/g" | sort -u | xargs
15:19:41 <HackEgo> brainfuck brainfucks calcrainfuck drainfuck dumpfuck golfuck haifuck intfuck
15:20:30 <quintopia> what is espletive? it just names a random esolang with fuck in it?
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15:21:54 <int-e> mrhmouse: {...:1} takes a substring. so only the first digit gets removed.
15:22:24 <int-e> mrhmouse: I'm unfamiliar with arrays in (ba)sh, hence the shift to shift.
15:23:00 <ais523_> hey, I've come across an algebraic structure, and am not sure if it has a name yet (I hope it does): it's a monoid, and it's also a semilattice, with the same identity; also, for all a, b, then (a + b) = (a meet b) + c for some c
15:23:18 <boily> quinthellopia. mrhmellouse.
15:25:41 <ais523_> an example of something with these properties is the natural numbers with 0 as the identity, + as the monoid operation, max as the join operation
15:29:10 <int-e> `/bin/sh --version
15:29:12 <HackEgo> /bin/sh: Illegal option --
15:30:52 <HackEgo> bash: ,: command not found
15:31:35 <mauke> `` strings /bin/sh
15:31:36 <HackEgo> /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ __gmon_start__ \ libc.so.6 \ strcpy \ readdir \ strsignal \ isalpha \ pipe \ __strdup \ closedir \ isblank \ fork \ sigfillset \ realloc \ abort \ _exit \ strpbrk \ getpid \ kill \ strspn \ imaxdiv \ strtod \ isspace \ strtok \ strtol \ isatty \ strchrnul \ isprint \ getpwnam \ getppid \ strlen \ isxdigit \ isalnum
15:31:44 <int-e> `` echo , > bin/comma; chmod +x bin/comma
15:31:50 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/comma: line 1: ,: command not found
15:36:28 <int-e> `` strings /bin/sh | grep ND
15:36:29 <HackEgo> sh: turning off NDELAY mode \ OPTIND \ OPTIND=1
15:37:00 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 4 Oct 14 2011 /bin/sh -> dash
15:37:44 <int-e> mrhmouse: I believe your version would have worked with bash.
15:39:05 <ais523_> int-e: why were you stringsing the shell?
15:42:00 <int-e> ais523_: same reason mauke did, trying to find some identifying information.
15:42:18 <int-e> that NDELAY message is something that dash has but bash doesn't.
15:42:39 <mauke> `` strings /bin/sh | grep dash
15:42:41 <ais523_> not understanding --version is a giveaway that it isn't GNU
15:42:49 <int-e> The ls -la was an afterthought that could have saved me some work.
15:43:00 <HackEgo> cc20a148ccd602b4bde6431a7a7fb028 /bin/sh
15:43:31 <int-e> http://mirror.data-hotel.biz/mirror02/pve-mtest/chroot/var/lib/dpkg/info/dash.md5sums
15:43:37 <ais523_> yeah, that's what I was doing too
15:43:55 <ais523_> easiest way to identify the program is to hash it, then reverse the hash
15:44:10 <HackEgo> 3e4f053d7520819f5e45a7792c972b05e4ff234e /bin/sh
15:44:34 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/issue: No such file or directory
15:44:55 <ais523_> this doesn't seem to be a widely used version of dash
15:45:11 <HackEgo> dpkg-query: failed to open package info file `/var/lib/dpkg/status' for reading: No such file or directory
15:45:17 <int-e> some debian squeeze?
15:45:29 <boily> `` cat /etc/lsb-release
15:45:31 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/lsb-release: No such file or directory
15:45:40 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
15:45:42 <ais523_> not having even read-only access to the dpkg status means we can't just ask dpkg what version's being used
15:45:57 <mauke> is this authentic uml tho
15:46:04 <int-e> `` md5sum /bin/bash
15:46:06 <HackEgo> 9a99d4a76f3f773f7ab5e9e3e482c213 /bin/bash
15:46:12 <boily> Gregor: is it authentic uml ↑
15:46:41 <ais523_> why did someone commit the md5 sum of their bash file to Github?
15:46:52 <ais523_> err, I mean, the file /bin/bash
15:47:07 <mauke> sort of repost: http://blogs.perl.org/users/mauke/2014/01/php-puzzle.html
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15:47:17 <mauke> I hope php is esoteric enough for this channel
15:49:38 <ais523_> mauke: I'm guessing for the first one, you can't use an integer 0, because it matches 'one'
15:49:50 <ais523_> in fact, I'm guessing we need some value that isn't a string or an integer
15:49:53 <int-e> http://mirror.data-hotel.biz/mirror02/pve-mtest/chroot/bin/bash has the right md5sum and is debian squeeze.
15:50:18 <int-e> it's interesting that people put whole chroots on the web.
15:50:23 <ais523_> int-e: haha, you just accessed the inside of the chroot?
15:50:36 <ais523_> also, normish's entire filesystem was on the web, read-only
15:50:47 <ais523_> I'm not sure if that's recommended practice or not
15:51:16 <ais523_> mauke: I can't run PHP here so you're going to have to yes or no my guesses for me
15:51:17 <int-e> I would advise against it.
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15:52:01 <int-e> it certainly helps attackers to figure out the exact versions of programs being run :)
15:52:21 <int-e> of course that's not a problem with secure software. (maybe it's not being run...)
15:52:22 <ais523_> they can download them locally and then --version them
15:52:54 <mauke> ais523_: http://writecodeonline.com/php/
15:53:51 <HackEgo> linux-vdso.so.1 => (0x0000007fbffff000) \ libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x0000000040002000) \ /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x000000552aaaa000)
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15:55:10 <ais523_> oh, codepad has it, I'll use that
15:55:19 <ais523_> yeah, it seems that "false" works for puzzle 1
15:55:28 <ais523_> I don't know enough PHP to get the other two, though
15:56:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /usr/lib/libc.so: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /usr/lib/libc.so: cannot execute: Permission denied
15:56:57 <quintopia> nope. i mean, perhaps you start to feel a bit inferior when you try to understand Snowflake, but look at what we have wrought!
15:56:59 <ais523_> libc.so is normally nonexecutable
15:57:13 <int-e> `/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so
15:57:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so: cannot execute: No such file or directory
15:57:25 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
15:57:28 <boily> Tanebventions are also mankind's... uhm... interestingness!
15:57:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /lib/libc.so: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /lib/libc.so: cannot execute: No such file or directory
15:57:51 <int-e> `ls -la /lib/libc.so
15:57:52 <boily> quintopia: of course I don't. if I did, I'd risk getting my lips stuck on a metal pole.
15:57:53 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
15:58:04 <int-e> ``ls -la /lib/libc.so
15:58:04 <ais523_> `` cp /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so /tmp && chmod a+x /tmp/libc.so && /tmp/libc.so
15:58:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
15:58:06 <HackEgo> cp: cannot stat `/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so': No such file or directory
15:58:20 <quintopia> boily: yes. that too. you don't suck long hard shafts.
15:58:23 <ais523_> `` cp /usr/lib/libc.so /tmp && chmod a+x /tmp/libc.so && /tmp/libc.so
15:58:24 <HackEgo> /tmp/libc.so: line 1: /bin: is a directory \ /tmp/libc.so: line 2: Use: command not found \ /tmp/libc.so: line 3: the: command not found \ /tmp/libc.so: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `elf64-x86-64' \ /tmp/libc.so: line 4: `OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf64-x86-64)'
15:58:40 <ais523_> I have the feeling that /usr/lib/libc.so is a text file
15:58:48 <HackEgo> /* GNU ld script \ Use the shared library, but some functions are only in \ the static library, so try that secondarily. */ \ OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf64-x86-64) \ GROUP ( /lib/libc.so.6 /usr/lib/libc_nonshared.a AS_NEEDED ( /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ) )
15:59:07 <mauke> `file /lib/libc.so.6
15:59:08 <HackEgo> /lib/libc.so.6: symbolic link to `libc-2.11.3.so'
15:59:13 <ais523_> oh right, that's the libc.so
15:59:21 <mauke> `file /lib/libc-2.11.3.so
15:59:23 <HackEgo> /lib/libc-2.11.3.so: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
15:59:41 <HackEgo> GNU C Library (Debian EGLIBC 2.11.3-4) stable release version 2.11.3, by Roland McGrath et al. \ Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. \ There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A \ PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \ Compiled by GNU CC version 4.4.5. \ Compiled
15:59:48 <ais523_> `` cp /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /tmp && chmod a+x /tmp/ld*.so.2 && /tmp/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
15:59:50 <HackEgo> Usage: ld.so [OPTION]... EXECUTABLE-FILE [ARGS-FOR-PROGRAM...] \ You have invoked `ld.so', the helper program for shared library executables. \ This program usually lives in the file `/lib/ld.so', and special directives \ in executable files using ELF shared libraries tell the system's program \ loader to load the helper program from this file. Th
16:00:00 <ais523_> wait, libc.so is executable?
16:00:05 <ais523_> `` cp /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /tmp && chmod a+x /tmp/ld*.so.2 && /tmp/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 --version
16:00:07 <HackEgo> --version: error while loading shared libraries: --version: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
16:00:11 <int-e> the gnu libc one, yes.
16:00:29 <int-e> becaus they could?
16:00:37 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /boot: No such file or directory
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16:00:51 <ais523_> also, does it dynamically link against itself to do the printing, or does it just look inside itself and use a static version of printf, etc.?
16:01:07 <ais523_> `ldd /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
16:01:17 <ais523_> mrhmouse: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snowflake
16:01:28 <ais523_> I need to write an interp someday
16:01:48 <ais523_> out of all my esolangs that are less vaporware than Feather, it's the one that can most be said to be art
16:03:16 -!- conehead has joined.
16:03:44 <ais523_> mrhmouse: no, beacuse the spec is really large
16:03:51 <ais523_> and most people give up before they finish reading it
16:04:10 <ais523_> just defining the language appropriately was an esoprogramming problem in its own right
16:04:16 <quintopia> however, this does suck: http://esolangs.org/wiki/$tonePits
16:04:18 <ais523_> because I had to make programming in it possible, but not too easy
16:05:37 <quintopia> can we mark it for speedy deletion? if we're lucky, the author will get discouraged and give up esoprogramming altogether! is that too mean?
16:06:28 <boily> it has a lots of wells...
16:06:36 <ais523_> like, a) it's not a BF derivative, b) it shows some semblance of creativity, c) it's nowhere near as horrible as ESME
16:06:57 <ais523_> although it looks like it should be in Ideas, not Languages (it's not currently in either)
16:07:19 <quintopia> yeah it is definitely not a language
16:07:19 * boily peruses ESME. “ow.”
16:07:49 <quintopia> the example at the bottom appears to have some random order of choosing pits to sow from. the semantics are not at all defined
16:08:04 <ais523_> I do find it amusing, though, that the author is having difficulty trying to find a state in which to start a finite state machine so that it eventually returns to the original state
16:10:32 <quintopia> can we delete Esme then? it makes us look bad and feel bad
16:10:39 <ais523_> mauke: aha, I think the solution to the second problem involves finding some string whose md5 starts "2000", but you can hardly expect me to bruteforce that
16:10:58 <ais523_> quintopia: we put it in Category:Shameful, which officially does not exist (and is maintained as a redlink)
16:11:14 <mauke> ais523_: yes, we can!
16:11:32 <quintopia> ais523_: it should also probably in Joke Programming Languages
16:11:50 <ais523_> quintopia: then someone might stumble across the link by accident
16:11:55 <ais523_> and that would be kind-of dangerous
16:12:18 <quintopia> ais523_: mightn't they stumble upon it browsing Stubs?
16:14:11 <ais523_> btw, the Talk page for Esme is pretty good too
16:15:27 <quintopia> yeah it looks like the author was a troll
16:16:01 <ais523_> that hadn't actually occurred to me yet
16:23:21 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `buildG' (imported from Data.Graph)
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18:34:15 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/issue: No such file or directory
18:34:37 <fizzie> A bot that doesn't have any issues? How rare.
18:34:41 <fizzie> fungot: Watch and learn.
18:34:41 <fungot> fizzie: anything worthwhile that isn't super complicated in c++ is a lot like diablo, if you ask me
18:36:43 <int-e> `ln -s .doorstop wisdom/issues
18:36:44 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
18:36:52 <int-e> `` ln -s .doorstop wisdom/issues
18:37:08 <boily> `complain THIS BOT HAS NO ISSUES!
18:37:09 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:37:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:37:16 <HackEgo> You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
18:38:48 * int-e is still confused by this, is `run a special case?
18:40:30 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
18:46:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:47:45 <int-e> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/src/tip/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd ... line 12, hmm :)
18:49:02 <zzo38> If you use "`<command>" then it just uses one word as the filename and the rest as an argument without any further parsing; using "`run" will instead parse it using the shell parser.
18:49:40 <int-e> right, there are special cases for `help, `fetch, `run, `revert.
18:50:50 <ais523_> `revert has to be hardcoded because otherwise someone could delete bin/revert and it'd be hard to stop
18:50:51 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision 'has to be hardcoded because otherwise someone could delete bin/revert and it'd be hard to stop'!
18:51:15 <int-e> yes. (you should be more careful there!)
18:51:59 <int-e> in fact I expect that the repo is outside of the sandbox.
18:52:09 <ais523_> it couldn't be inside, obviously
18:52:17 <ais523_> because then the repo would somehow have to be in the repo
18:52:27 <ais523_> so that you could convert changes to it made directly
18:52:43 <int-e> it could be ignored ;)
18:53:03 <int-e> after all, having a .hg subdirectory that is ignored by hg is sort of standard.
18:53:14 <HackEgo> total 40 \ drwxr-xr-x 16 0 0 0 Jan 17 18:53 . \ drwxr-xr-x 16 0 0 0 Jan 17 18:53 .. \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Oct 20 00:02 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 4096 Nov 10 2011 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Jan 17 18:53 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jan 17 18:36 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Jan 17 18:53 home \ d
18:53:28 <HackEgo> . \ .. \ bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
18:53:42 -!- Slereahphone has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi).
18:53:47 <HackEgo> - \ . \ .. \ 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ file \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ .hg \ .hg_archival.txt \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ perpetual motion machine \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom
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18:59:31 <int-e> `` shuf -n 1 quotes
18:59:33 <HackEgo> <Quas_NaArt> Because you're a Mac user. <lacota> I am! and proud of it to <lacota> My mouse has *no* buttons.
19:00:02 <HackEgo> 276) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
19:01:07 <Vorpal> So it seems the the microsd in my phone gave up. I have files like LOST?.DI€ on it...
19:01:19 <Vorpal> Well, time to get a new one I guess...
19:01:25 <Vorpal> Good thing I have backups
19:02:31 <Vorpal> There are essentially 3 alternatives as well for me... Sandisk 64 GB of varying speeds.
19:03:08 <Vorpal> So either another one of the one I had, which is now about half the price compared to 1.8 years ago. Or some faster alternatives for about the same price.
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19:46:29 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
19:46:50 <boily> `relcome henrique1
19:46:52 <HackEgo> henrique1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:48:31 -!- henrique1 has left.
19:48:54 <ais523_> gah, this client doesn't filter colors
19:49:25 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 25 Dec 26 18:32 perpetual motion machine -> ./wisdom/perpetuum mobile
19:51:33 <boily> ais523_: colours are good!!!!!
20:05:05 <Vorpal> <ais523_> gah, this client doesn't filter colors <-- did you find it annoying?
20:05:15 <boily> oh hm. shows as dark gray here. I said “colours are good!!!!!”.
20:05:38 <Vorpal> FreeFull, readable for me. It was black on white background
20:06:10 <Vorpal> This is why colours in IRC suck. Because depending on the readers background some colours will always be unreadable or near unreadable
20:06:39 <Vorpal> You could always set bg colour too of course.... But blergh
20:06:46 <Vorpal> Okay that was a terrible combination
20:07:04 * boily artfully mapoles Vorpal
20:07:48 <Vorpal> boily, wtf is "mapole"?
20:07:54 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
20:08:16 <boily> it's a pole. made of maple. it is aerodynamic!
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20:09:44 <boily> ~eval ["\ETX" ++ show x ++ "," ++ show (15 - x) ++ "poulet" | x <- [0..15]]
20:09:44 <metasepia> ["\ETX0,15poulet","\ETX1,14poulet","\ETX2,13poulet","\ETX3,12poulet","\ETX4,11poulet","\ETX5,10poulet","\ETX6,9poulet","\ETX7,8poulet","\ETX8,7poulet","\ETX9,6poulet","\ETX10,5poulet","\ETX11,4poulet","\ETX12,3poulet","\ETX13,2poulet","\ETX14,1poulet","\ETX15,0poulet"]
20:10:12 <boily> ~eval ["" ++ show x ++ "," ++ show (15 - x) ++ "poulet" | x <- [0..15]]
20:10:13 <metasepia> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\ETX'
20:33:41 <int-e> I'm with ais523, colors are awful.
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20:51:23 <Bike> http://whatthefuckismywearablestrategy.com/
20:51:59 <Bike> "PAIR OF SHOES THAT POSTS TO MEDIUM WHEN YOU DRINK TOO MUCH COFFEE"
20:52:35 * boily shrinks away from the site... slowly... discreetly...
20:55:14 <Bike> sounds like boily needs an E-CIGARETTE THAT SELF DESTRUCTS WHEN YOU HAVE NIGHTMARES
20:55:41 * boily runs aimlessly “AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!”
20:56:20 <int-e> sounds like we've moved on from the internet of things to the cabal of things
21:03:19 <Vorpal> <int-e> I'm with ais523, colors are awful. <-- Yep. Bold is all you need.
21:05:48 <int-e> Vorpal: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/irssee.png ... if you look closely you'll find colors :)
21:07:11 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:07:20 <int-e> hey, http://whatthefuckismywearablestrategy.com/ is cool.
21:07:25 <boily> nooo! lambdie! come back!
21:08:21 <int-e> it failed its first reconnect attempt. hmm.
21:08:39 <int-e> (so now it'll wait 5 minutes)
21:09:39 <int-e> oh. actually 2 minutes. that does seem more sensible.
21:10:38 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:11:28 <int-e> ok, it's coming :)
21:11:45 <int-e> just has to join a gazillion other channels first.
21:12:16 <boily> don't come and tell me there is only a single instance of lambdabot running on all of Freenode.
21:12:35 <int-e> one nick, one bot.
21:12:56 <fungot> boily: but if you're running scheme48 in slime48 or the usual command processor and the module system
21:13:15 -!- lambdabot has joined.
21:13:34 <int-e> $ grep ^join online.rc | wc -l
21:13:54 <boily> iiuc, you have access to that instance?
21:14:30 <int-e> I'm running it currently
21:15:36 <int-e> (AFAIK lambdabot even has a special user mode set because ordinarily, users are not allowed to join that many channels at once)
21:15:37 <boily> Most Divine Fungot of Doom Sitting at the Top of Mount Sumeru.
21:17:36 <olsner> is it really case sensitive? that's outrageous
21:17:57 <olsner> fungot: I called you an it, react
21:17:57 <fungot> olsner: latest fnord::"? comments are ignored by the environment. is there a better solution
21:19:17 <boily> fungot: the better solution is to pester your Creator and ask him to make you case insensitive.
21:19:18 <fungot> boily: i can program in, you'll build utilities based on that.
21:19:38 <boily> fungot: I already have to accept that you're sentient. your utility will come afterwards.
21:19:38 <fungot> boily: i did copy some stuff from ccbi on this. i do for sure.
21:20:31 <int-e> > text.unwords.sequence.map(ap((:).toUpper)(:[]))$"fungot"
21:20:32 <fungot> int-e: logcheck and fnord are only 100m... i sense a nice afternoon. i'm too lazy to translate this). i thought you
21:20:33 <lambdabot> FUNGOT FUNGOt FUNGoT FUNGot FUNgOT FUNgOt FUNgoT FUNgot FUnGOT FUnGOt FUnGoT...
21:21:01 <int-e> oh. sequence.map = mapM, of course.
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21:38:49 <int-e> hey, http://whatthefuckismywearablestrategy.com/ isn't all bad. It has a fitting <noscript> version.
21:39:43 <int-e> elliott: Thanks. sequence . map f = mapM f. Which fits the context I had.
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21:49:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: lexical error at character '\822'
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22:27:21 <ion> http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/audioquest-ethernet-cables-pt2-ethernet-cable
22:29:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
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22:52:38 <int-e> I see, the soft clinking of money thrown down the drain really adds to the listening experience.
22:52:48 -!- nisstyre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:53:52 <int-e> I wonder, are they selling gold plated fiber optic cables anywhere?
22:59:06 * oerjan remembers to check the bitcoin exchange rate
23:00:54 <oerjan> no i don't have any, i just like watching bubbles
23:02:44 <Taneb> oerjan, how's China housing going?
23:03:05 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: are you an expert thereon <-- not in the slightest, i don't even remember the precise definition
23:04:06 <oerjan> Taneb: sorry, i didn't mean _all_ bubbles. norwegian housing still hasn't totally collapsed, though.
23:04:51 <int-e> soap bubbles as well?
23:05:10 <int-e> (personally I find them prettier than bitcoins)
23:05:49 <int-e> tulips are a classic *and* beautiful.
23:06:27 <lambdabot> `>>' (imported from Control.Monad.Writer),
23:06:37 -!- nisstyre has joined.
23:06:45 <oerjan> :t (Control.Logic.>>-)
23:06:48 <int-e> (tulips, e.g. http://www.damninteresting.com/the-dutch-tulip-bubble-of-1637/ )
23:07:31 <int-e> hmm. actually it is installed *wonders*
23:07:41 <oerjan> oh. what's the module name
23:08:05 <int-e> but it's not imported/
23:09:02 <Taneb> @let import Control.Monad.Logic
23:09:12 <lambdabot> MonadLogic m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
23:09:58 <int-e> I'm a bit scared that @let import ... works.
23:10:15 <Taneb> @let import Unsafe.Coerce
23:10:16 <lambdabot> Unsafe.Coerce: Can't be safely imported!
23:10:42 <oerjan> > repeat () >>- const [1,3..]
23:10:44 <lambdabot> [1,1,3,1,5,3,7,1,9,5,11,3,13,7,15,1,17,9,19,5,21,11,23,3,25,13,27,7,29,15,31...
23:10:58 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Control.Monad.Logic.Class.once',
23:10:58 <lambdabot> imported from `Control.Monad.Logic' at L.hs:49:1-26
23:10:58 <lambdabot> (and originally defined in `logict-0.6.0.1:Control....
23:10:58 <lambdabot> or `Test.QuickCheck.Property.once',
23:11:19 <int-e> I'll admit that it's not *obviously* unsafe.
23:11:21 <oerjan> myname: it's so much easier _without_ list comprehensions ^
23:12:08 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:12:19 <oerjan> let me guess, e is idle
23:14:40 <oerjan> @let import qualified Control.Monad.Logic as L
23:15:53 <oerjan> so apparently you can import a module qualified with the name of the module you're importing it into
23:16:23 <oerjan> i suppose it needs to be non-hierarchical
23:16:42 <oerjan> @let import qualified Control.Monad as Data.Monoid
23:17:34 <oerjan> > [1..3] Data.Monoid.>> ['a'..'b']
23:17:40 <shachaf> . is just another character that can be in a module name
23:17:52 <oerjan> hm right it's defined that way
23:18:03 <shachaf> it's not special (except that ghc will translate it to / so it looks in subdirectories)
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23:20:14 <Taneb> @let import Data.Function as Foo..Bar
23:20:34 <Taneb> @let import Data.Function as Foo.
23:21:22 <oerjan> > sin Prelude..cos $ 1
23:21:57 <oerjan> > Just Prelude..Right $ 1
23:22:13 <oerjan> ok it's only as a module
23:24:20 <shachaf> I,I [Just Prelude .. Right]
23:24:47 <oerjan> i don't think that types shachaf
23:25:01 <shachaf> it depends on how much you hide from Prelude
23:26:11 <int-e> > [Nothing..Just True]
23:26:12 <lambdabot> A section must be enclosed in parentheses
23:26:12 <lambdabot> thus: (Nothing.. Just True)Not in scope: `Nothing..'
23:26:23 <int-e> > [Nothing .. Just True]
23:26:24 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum (Data.Maybe.Maybe GHC.Types.Bool))
23:26:24 <lambdabot> arising from the arithmetic sequence `Data.Maybe.Nothing .. Data.Maybe.Just
23:26:54 <int-e> for I moment I was afraid that there would be a default Enum instance for Maybe.
23:28:02 <oerjan> well you _could_ just insert Nothing at 0 and shift everything after onward
23:28:03 <int-e> fromEnum Nothing = (minBound :: a) - 1 ;-)
23:28:54 <int-e> @type fromEnum . minBound
23:28:55 <lambdabot> (Bounded (a -> b), Enum b) => a -> Int
23:29:18 <oerjan> i suppose getting ranges just right would be cumbersome.
23:29:29 <int-e> @type fromEnum minBound -- oops
23:29:30 <shachaf> whoa, Enum has both "fromEnum" and "enumFrom" methods
23:29:30 <lambdabot> No instance for (Enum a0) arising from a use of `fromEnum'
23:29:31 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
23:29:31 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
23:29:57 <int-e> @type enumFromThenTo
23:29:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (Enum a0) arising from a use of `fromEnum'
23:29:59 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
23:29:59 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
23:30:20 <int-e> oerjan: it means that it can't guess which Enum+Bounded instance it's supposed to use
23:30:34 <oerjan> oh right it's entirely hidden
23:30:44 <int-e> > fromEnum (minBound `asTypeOf` True)
23:31:22 <int-e> so that should have been my first type query:
23:31:31 <int-e> @type fromEnum . asTypeOf minBound
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00:56:13 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/issue{s,}
00:56:22 <HackEgo> You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
00:56:47 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/iss*
00:56:49 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Jan 18 00:56 wisdom/issue -> .doorstop
01:05:57 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 25 Dec 26 18:32 perpetual motion machine -> ./wisdom/perpetuum mobile
01:06:03 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/perp*
01:06:05 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 107 Dec 26 18:30 wisdom/perpetual motion machine \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 24 Dec 26 20:43 wisdom/perpetuum mobile -> perpetual motion machine
01:06:24 <oerjan> `rm perpetual motion machine
01:06:41 <HackEgo> Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
01:07:07 <HackEgo> - \ 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ file \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf \ ,}wolfram
01:07:33 <HackEgo> ,}wolfram: broken symbolic link to `wisdom/{stephen'
01:07:57 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
01:08:47 <HackEgo> - \ 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:10:34 <HackEgo> bi: ASCII text, with very long lines
01:10:39 <HackEgo> echo -n $@ | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | z
01:10:55 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/bi: No such file or directory
01:11:14 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:11:34 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ ploki \ ul.emm
01:11:51 <oerjan> `run mv ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 src
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01:20:05 <ion> Click “Listen” on the Japanese translation. http://translate.google.com/#auto/ja/..................................................................
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01:23:03 <oerjan> i dotto, i mean did so
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02:16:24 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0336 COMBINING LONG STROKE OVERLAY]
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04:47:11 <Sgeo> "(lalalala my friend is fine, he just has a different drinking issue now lalalalala)"
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05:21:22 <Sgeo> Why are comments on news sites always terrible?
05:26:24 <quintopia> because there are people out there, in the world, who disagree with you, who have different information and influences than you, who have different perceptions and priorities than you, and who believe that news site comment threads are an open forum for sharing their opinions. The culmination of all these factors in a community where speech is not moderated and carefully cultivated gives you the opportunity to judge it, seemingly harshly, and
05:29:27 <oerjan> quintopia: install splitlong.pl thx
05:30:59 <quintopia> oerjan: but it's spammy! better to just get truncated. it's an automatic built-in tl;dr system!
05:42:11 <zzo38> I tried to make a tape recording on VirtuaNES, but the recording file is full of $70.
05:44:58 <Bike> i didn't know they made seventy dollar bills though.
05:47:10 <Bike> fortuitous for you then.
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05:49:15 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know.
05:54:09 <oerjan> obviously we are doomed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25780908
06:00:47 <quintopia> so recently after schneier's rant about said lax security too
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06:33:14 <Sgeo> "SECURITY ATTACKS AREN'T SUBTLE"
06:33:16 <Sgeo> http://www.everestads.net/static/assets/2818/30adddca7a74cd17f454e8ec79323d76_1.jpeg
06:33:22 <Sgeo> Um... that would be nice if it was true
07:06:43 <zzo38> I recently read someone had a dream about chess variant. As it turns out, so did I, but mine is more confusing.
07:19:58 <zzo38> Here is a screenshot of Famicom "Attribute Zone" editor so far: http://zzo38computer.org/img_16/attrzone_201401172309222.png Do you think this is OK?
07:23:10 <zzo38> So far the only functions it works is: HJKL or arrow keys to move cursor; hold shift and HJKL or arrows to move cursor once per frame (1/60 sec); F4 to clear screen; SHIFT+F4 and CTRL+F4 to adjust grid parity; F5 to write to a tape (untested); STOP to go back to title screen.
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09:50:10 <Sgeo> So, just remembered the statement "You can't always get what you want; but if you try sometimes you can get what you need"
09:50:26 <Sgeo> Googled part of that along with tautology, and ended up on some libertarian's blog
09:50:56 <Sgeo> http://think-and-prosper.blogspot.com/2012/10/tautology-of-self-affirming-concept.html
09:51:12 <Bike> that just ain't as good as the stones
09:51:22 <Bike> or whoever did that song, probably not the stones first
09:51:44 <Sgeo> I think this person has an empathy deficit. E's saying that people don't always get what they need, which is true, but... e's saying so stop trying to force it and just accept it
09:52:19 <Bike> we call it libertarianism
09:52:30 <Sgeo> "So you can't always get what you WANT, but contrary to what the Rolling Stones might say, you can't always get what you NEED, either. You can get only what you CAN get. So accept that and move on, and stop trying to use the strong arm of the State to take from others what you think your deserve but do not have. "
09:53:23 <Bike> yes, the usual douchebag.
09:53:27 <Sgeo> Wonder if this person thinks that everything that happens in nature is good
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10:16:13 <oklopol> "Reciprocal" means "mutually accepted and practiced standards of behavior between human beings" is that really the definition?
10:16:46 <Bike> that's a definition of a noun, not an adjective, so maybe in an especially crapy dictionary
10:16:52 <Bike> but that's a definition of 'reciprocity' sure
10:17:32 <oklopol> but the important part was that it means a standard
10:17:39 <oklopol> because rights were also a standard
10:17:47 <oklopol> maybe i misunderstood what he was trying to say
10:24:25 <oklopol> i think this guy has some misunderstandings about "="
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10:35:05 <oklopol> i get the impression that he is trying to prove that abortion is wrong using logic or something
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11:47:11 <Sgeo> http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/3/33/Blue_Hurricane.jpg
11:47:21 <Sgeo> I assume that that's still green if actually played
11:47:56 <Sgeo> Wait, green direct damage?
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12:53:01 <coppro> Sgeo: yes to both questions
12:54:51 <quintopia> if you have less damage than all opponents and enough mana, you can instantly win. wonder what the best counters are.
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14:51:43 <fizzie> "[transcode] critical: Video frame size out of range (max 2500x2000)" soooo laaaame
14:52:18 <fizzie> (Had some 2576x1449 images to process.)
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15:03:35 <Gregor> fizzie: transcode is for losers. Does ffmpeg handle it?
15:03:55 <Gregor> (Note: It might not ;) )
15:12:41 <fizzie> For context, I was trying to use http://public.hronopik.de/vid.stab/ which was built-in in Debian's transcode, but not in ffm.. I mean, libav. (I guess I'll just build ffmpeg on my own, or something; will get a newer version anyway.)
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16:33:55 <ion> More: http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1vgb8a/google_translateim_so_happy/
16:35:43 <fizzie> Gregor: ffmpeg seems to be okay with it, but vid.stab doesn't like the height: "vsFrameInfoInit: Assertion `width%2==0 && height%2==0' failed."
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17:15:28 <FreeFull> fizzie: I wonder why it only likes even ones
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17:50:01 <Gregor> fizzie, FreeFull: It's probably just a side effect of the particular encoder. You might be able to use a video filter to pad it to an even size.
18:26:38 <fizzie> Gregor: It was from the vid.stab filter, actually.
18:26:59 <fizzie> (I cropped one line off with a filter in front of it, yes.)
18:28:06 <fizzie> What I don't really know is why a video stabilization filter would be restricted to even heights, but such is life.
18:34:59 <Gregor> Anyway, yeah, easy enough to fix. Why are you using a video stabilization filter if your input is photos...?
18:35:08 <Gregor> (Or did I misunderstand that too)
18:36:39 <fizzie> Oh, it's a single set of time-lapse photos.
18:37:31 <fizzie> That I would like to encode into a video, but there's a bit of movement of the phone that was used to take them.
18:38:03 <fizzie> Apparently my coffee-cup-and-books based phone-at-the-window-holder was not quite perfect.
18:38:54 <fizzie> I guess it's a matter of opinion whether they're photos or a slow video.
18:49:52 <fizzie> (And for the record, the phone doesn't have such an odd sensor size, I had just cropped a 16:9 aspect slice out of a 2576x1936 frame. In retrospect, not such a great idea, given this stabilization attempt.)
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20:21:22 <Gregor> fizzie: Ahhh, OK, I get it. Just as a general note, I've historically had much better luck just using ffmpeg than using any of the various tools that ultimately just use its codecs and filters.
20:25:00 <oklopol> ion: what's that supposed to sound like?
20:29:57 <ion> A melodic “dotta dotta dotta dotta dotta…”
20:30:12 <ion> The melodic thing makes it funny.
20:31:53 <oklopol> i wonder what i'm doing wrong
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20:34:29 <ion> oklopol: A number of people have had it not work despite other text working.
20:34:46 <ion> So it seems to be “i wonder what Google is doing wrong”
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20:41:40 <int-e> ion: http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/01/malware-vendors-buy-chrome-extensions-to-send-adware-filled-updates/ ;-)
20:41:54 * int-e is completely ignoring all context.
20:44:21 <FreeFull> Malware vendor buys esoteric languages to trick people into installing adware
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20:48:49 <Sgeo> I gather that Mox Saphhire is considered bette than the other Moxes? But Mox Pearl is prettier
20:50:10 <fizzie> Gregor: ffmpeg seems to be doing all right here, though the command lines are getting a bit on the absurd side. Cf. http://sprunge.us/EHPX (I'm prefixing it with a "sped-up" average-N-stabilized-frames version.)
20:50:38 <Gregor> Yup, that looks like an ffmpeg command line.
20:54:43 <fizzie> (It's also missing all encoding options for the mp4 output, I'm not that far yet.)
20:58:02 <Gregor> Where are you sending your output file? Direct distribution or something like YouTube?
20:58:27 <fizzie> YouTube; I've got a "summer" and "autumn" clips of the same view there already.
20:58:42 <fizzie> I guess there might be some YouTube-optimized settings somewhere.
20:59:11 <fizzie> (There seems to be at least a ffmpeg wiki page about it.)
20:59:18 <Gregor> Not to my knowledge. When I'm YouTubing I'm just less careful about the quality (make it high-quality and huge, YouTube will recompress)
20:59:40 <Gregor> I usually just do -c:v libx264 -crf 19 for the video part.
21:18:36 <pikhq> That's basically the way to go about it in general.
21:18:48 <pikhq> x264 defaults are basically "very good" in general.
21:18:54 <ais523> Sgeo: it's blue, blue is always better
21:19:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: Island is the best basic land.
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21:19:13 <ais523> the next best is Mox Jet because black can do the most broken things with one mana
21:19:54 <Sgeo> I assume we're talking in environments with these sorts of cards? Blue isn't monotonically better today, is it?
21:20:20 <pikhq> Blue is still generally better, just not as undeniably.
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21:48:10 <ion> http://youtu.be/AxJXtF3FQCM?t=14s
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21:58:06 <fizzie> "Input link in3:v0 parameters (size 1920x1080, SAR 1431:1430) do not match the corresponding output link in0:v0 parameters (1920x1080, SAR 1:1)"
22:03:20 <int-e> > 1431/1430 == (1/1 :: Rational)
22:04:03 <int-e> how does one get a 1431:1430 aspect ratio?
22:05:25 <ais523> I think you can set a video of any dimensions to any aspect ratio you like
22:05:34 <ais523> you just end up with rectangular pixels
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22:07:21 <fizzie> It's presumably something to do with the scale filter.
22:07:26 <int-e> Sure, but those specific numbers look ... odd. I don't believe anybody could tell the difference between a rectangle with dimensions 1431x1430 and a square.
22:07:32 <fizzie> "The scale filter forces the output display aspect ratio to be the same of the input, by changing the output sample aspect ratio."
22:08:41 <fizzie> I'm trying to crop 2544x1431 rectangles (that's a 16:9 image with square pixels) but apparently something's going wrong somewhere.
22:09:36 <int-e> ah, then it must be scaling by 1430/1431 in the vertical dimension.
22:10:17 <fizzie> Though I can't quite see why "..., crop=w=2544:h=1431, scale=1920:1080" would end up with a non-1:1 sample (aka pixel) aspect ratio.
22:10:50 <int-e> (well. "must" is too strong.)
22:10:52 <fizzie> Because the result of the crop is already 16:9, and so is 1920x1080, so scale shouldn't do anything.
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22:11:26 <int-e> didn't you mention using h=1430 somewhere?
22:11:46 <fizzie> h=1448, before the video stabilization, yes.
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22:12:22 <fizzie> But that shouldn't affect the pixel aspect ratio, just the display aspect ratio.
22:12:35 <fizzie> Maybe there's some filter I can add in a chain that will print some debugging information of the stream at that point, in case the vid.stab filter is doing something strange.
22:13:12 <int-e> > floor (2544 * (1080 / 1920))
22:13:32 <int-e> > floor (2544 * (1080 / 1920 :: Float))
22:13:39 <fizzie> That should be exact, in fact.
22:13:59 <int-e> ... right, 9/16 should be exact
22:14:08 <int-e> > floor (2544 / (1920 / 1080 :: Float))
22:14:23 <int-e> > floor (2544 / (1920 / 1080 :: Double))
22:15:46 <fizzie> I can probably "fix" it with a setsar=sar=1/1 filter, but that doesn't explain what's wrong.
22:22:21 <fizzie> Ah, "showinfo" was the kind of filter I was looking for.
22:23:54 <fizzie> Ohh, I think I get it. For some reason, the pixel format for this one stream is yuv420p, so the crop=h=1431 gets rounded to 1430, because of subsampling.
22:25:20 <fizzie> Though I don't quite understand why one .jpg input is yuv420p and another is yuvj444p.
22:26:05 <fizzie> (Is there even chroma subsampling in JPEG files?)
22:32:09 <fizzie> "vsFrameAllocate: Assertion `fi->planes==1' failed."
22:42:43 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/eNRZ well, that wasn't complicated at all.
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22:50:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, there is, and it's variable
22:51:27 <fizzie> Apparently so. I'd've appreciated a warning from crop that it's cropping something else than what was specified, though.
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23:10:14 <zzo38> There is single-static-assignment with PHI nodes, but another possible format could be, register forwarding format; each termination of a block must indicate which registers are forwarded to the next block.
23:28:21 <zzo38> Are there programs using such a forwarding format, and to convert between these two formats?
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00:36:58 <oerjan> <ion> oklopol: A number of people have had it not work despite other text working. <-- it worked for me yesterday when you first posted it, but it no longer does.
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01:03:25 <shachaf> broken age is great, by the way
01:03:58 <Vorpal> shachaf, oh really? Hm. But it is only the first episode isn't it?
01:04:53 <shachaf> the first episode is great. have not played the part that doesn't exist yet
01:05:14 <Vorpal> Is it going to be 2 or more episodes?
01:07:55 <shachaf> i guess the non-beta is coming out on jan 28
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01:08:53 <shachaf> "ACT 1 WILL BE AVAILABLE ON JANUARY 28TH, AND THE ACT 2 CONCLUSION WILL ARRIVE AS A FREE UPDATE LATER THIS YEAR "
01:10:23 <oerjan> `log finger.*tree.*jp.?g
01:11:16 <oerjan> `pastelogs finger.*tree
01:11:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31614
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01:24:56 <Sgeo> What's the best Un- card?
01:26:24 <Sgeo> "Last week, I created a banned and restricted list for Unglued. Four cards were banned, and two were restricted."
01:26:34 <Sgeo> ...trying to bring sanity to Unglued. Wat.
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01:27:55 <oerjan> are you saying the idea is a little ... unhinged?
01:28:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: Which cards did you ban/restrict?
01:28:51 <Sgeo> I didn't, I'm reading an article by someone else
01:29:02 <Sgeo> http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/multiplayer/7489_Bringing_Unglued_Into_Your_Casual_Game_8212_Part_I.html
01:29:07 <zzo38> And which ones (if any) are banned in Limited too? (Normally no cards are banned/restricted in Limited, but sometimes there are some)
01:29:28 <zzo38> (such as cards dealing with ante are sometimes banned)
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01:31:17 <Sgeo> zzo38: all Unglued and Unhinged cards are not allowed in any format
01:31:38 <Sgeo> Except the basic lands
01:32:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know, but if you are allowing them in your own format, then you have to also specify what is allowed if playing Limited, too.
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01:55:14 <Sgeo> How do I manage to read a bunch of Sliver cards yet still at one point think it says Silver?
02:00:53 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's because of the hypnotic treatment you got to forget that your family's real surname is Glod.
02:18:40 <Gregor> Anybody know/remember in which version Minecraft switched to using an ad-hoc server in single-player mode?
02:22:15 <oerjan> FreeFull: okay. i'm still only up to Eric + The Last Continent.
02:23:03 <oerjan> Gregor: i vaguely thought everything in Minecraft was ad hoc.
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02:24:48 <Gregor> oerjan: lul, that's true, but in older versions there didn't happen to be an ad-hoc SERVER for single-player play ;)
02:25:47 * oerjan shall assume the u in lul is for "unreasonably"
02:28:45 <zzo38> Do you ever dream about new games that don't actually exist?
02:28:59 <zzo38> (Or at least, as far as you know it doesn't exist)
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02:42:46 <ais523> oerjan: I misread that as "unnecessary", then was about to complain that it had to be a preposition or an adverb
02:42:48 <FreeFull> I haven't, but it sounds like a normal thing to dream about
02:42:53 <ais523> luckily I read it again before complaining
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03:26:33 <zzo38> I have dream twice like that I can remember, once the first computer game ever invented which was an implementation of a card game called "One Draw", and once of a chess variant with some really strange properties.
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03:35:04 <Sgeo> o.O a deck without basic lands
03:35:11 <Sgeo> I mean, it has lands, but... just a bit surprised
03:35:34 <ais523> Sgeo: that's really common in Legacy
03:35:49 <Sgeo> I think this is Standard?
03:35:52 <Sgeo> http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bug-flash-18-01-14-1/
03:35:56 <ais523> to the extent that some people started sideboarding Path to Exile on the assumption that the opponent probably wouldn't be able to play it
03:36:07 <ais523> oh, in Standard, it's rare, but doable if you're playing three colors
03:37:56 <Sgeo> Grr Gatherer doesn't play nice with Chrome's search engine bar
03:38:11 <Sgeo> magiccards.info does but can't see player discussion like that
03:42:26 <Sgeo> What's an "RDW" player?
03:42:35 <Sgeo> "Also, im guessing you never had to go up against a RDW with Burning Earth? :P"
03:43:10 <ais523> RDW = Red Deck Wins = play cheap red cards only, attack with the most efficient cheap creatures available even if they have crazy drawbacks, finish off with burn
03:43:25 <ais523> you can aim the burn at the opposing creatures for a bit too, if it helps you get through for more damage on the ground
03:43:42 <ais523> but the deck /will/ be overwhelmed if it hasn't won by like turn 6 or 7
03:44:00 <Sgeo> Is there a reason a non-RDW wouldn't want to use Burning Earth against the no-basic-lands deck?
03:44:40 <ais523> well, Burning Earth's designed as a nonbasic land hoser, so it's pretty good against any no-basic-lands deck
03:44:47 <ais523> but it's best in highly aggressive decks
03:44:59 <shachaf> i was told that burning earth is generally considered the scow of enchantments
03:46:09 <shachaf> as in one of the worst, almost never worth using
03:46:56 <Sgeo> Makes sense if there are a lot of people using nonbasic lands, to at least have it in the sideboard
03:47:09 <Sgeo> I think. Then again, I'm not an expert Magic player
03:47:21 <Sgeo> I think.... I have misplaced a lot of physical cards
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03:47:30 <ais523> basically what happened is that Wizards like each Standard environment to be different from the one before
03:47:34 <ais523> Ravnica block was all about playing lots of colors
03:47:50 <ais523> so they added a bunch of multicolor deck hosers in M14, like Burning Earth, which were played a bit
03:48:10 <shachaf> Ravnica is distinct from Return to Ravnica here, right?
03:48:13 <ais523> then made monocolored decks really powerful in Theros by adding powerful devotion cards
03:48:13 <Sgeo> Multicolor decks generally use nonbasic lands? I guess that makes sense
03:48:20 <ais523> shachaf: I meant RtR, we're talking about standard
03:48:30 <ais523> anyway, because most of the best decks are monocolored
03:48:45 <ais523> pretty much all the lands are either basics or Nykthos
03:48:53 <ais523> with the occasional Mutavault
03:49:16 <zzo38> Maybe in Constructed they are, but in Limited would it be the case that best decks would be multicolored?
03:49:21 <ais523> and Burning Earth doesn't hose Nykthos very effectively
03:49:51 <ais523> zzo38: two colors is common in Limited, occasionally three, but the issue doesn't come up because there aren't any dual lands in M14, and people don't do M14+Theros limited
03:50:21 <Sgeo> So in the future, Burning Earth could make a resurgence?
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03:51:16 <zzo38> ais523: But what if someone will make up a M14+Theros limited game?
03:51:35 <ais523> zzo38: it's not played often enough for me to have any data on whether Burning Earth is any good in that format, but my guess is still no
03:51:43 <ais523> Sgeo: probably not unless it's reprinted
03:51:52 <ais523> if it's in M15, possibly
03:52:13 <ais523> but its best chance for staying around was in Innistrad/RtR/M14, where it was used a bit, but that format didn't last long
03:52:28 <Sgeo> If I make a Magic Online account, get a bunch of cards with the account, but don't play for a few years, does the account become worth less than a new account
03:53:01 <Sgeo> I actually have an old account that I lost the password to, I think I should make a new account instead of bothering with customer service
03:53:11 <ais523> I'm not sure if you're allowed multiple accounts
03:53:40 <ais523> also, the older cards might or might not have become more valuable, although they're probably less valuable if they're a) not Standard-legal, and b) not good in the formats they are legal in
03:54:14 <Sgeo> Actually, might have two accounts, a friend gifted me one but I never took interest, and I think I made a different one on my own
03:57:47 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366411
03:58:00 <Sgeo> How... does someone ever manage to play this?
03:58:46 <shachaf> there are lots of ways of getting lots of mana
03:59:15 <ais523> it's played all the time in Legacy, normally using Omniscience: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=288937
03:59:31 <ais523> let's use a 10-mana card to play a 12-mana card
03:59:43 <shachaf> someone might play a Zhur-Taa Ancient, for instance
03:59:44 <ais523> Omniscience is normally played using Show and Tell or Dream Halls
04:00:59 <shachaf> the other day i was playing a game and someone played Mind Grind with X=21
04:01:03 <ais523> the deck normally wins around turn 3 or 4 and is very difficult to top
04:01:28 <shachaf> using a bunch of Axebane Guardians
04:03:03 <ais523> if a game of Magic reaches the 21-mana stage, then either a) it's multiplayer; b) a control player is winning; or c) someone is playing a lot of ramp
04:06:41 <shachaf> there was also a progenitor mimic involved
04:06:55 <zzo38> In the 6502 machine code, even the TXA and TYA instructions affect the zero flag; therefore you can use this as one way to compare the X/Y register with zero if the A register is not going to be used.
04:07:34 <quintopia> ais523: i had an idea more esolang than MtG and i wondered what you would think
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04:08:10 <zzo38> quintopia: Show it to here; let's see maybe I might want to see it too
04:08:42 <quintopia> okay i was thinking, imagine a binary "ring"
04:09:16 <ais523> what do you mean by a binary ring? circular queue made of bits?
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04:09:56 <quintopia> okay, so it's kinda like Self BCT maybe, or maybe like one of wolfram's 1d automata
04:10:18 <quintopia> and if the first bit was 1, insert the SHA-1 of the deleted bits at the end
04:10:56 <ais523> that's one of those languages which would be nightmarish to prove TC or otherwise
04:11:07 <quintopia> think it could do anything interesting? think it could be gamed into behaving predictably
04:12:38 <quintopia> i wish i knew more about what was known about SHA
04:12:47 <ais523> how many bits is an SHA-1?
04:13:00 <ais523> I don't think you'd get very far without being able to reverse hashes
04:13:12 <ais523> arbitrary hashes, not the Google-reversible ones
04:14:11 <quintopia> the idea was that for a random bit string, we should expect it to remain about the same size
04:14:28 <quintopia> since about half the time you push back twice as many bits
04:15:15 <ais523> it'd obviously be sub-TC if you always took 160
04:15:28 <ais523> because then you only have finite storage because the different 160-bit blocks can't interact with each other
04:15:39 <ais523> with 80, though, they can, because you get the last half of one and the first half of the next
04:17:00 <quintopia> well i don't know if reversible hashes would be necessary. the first bit might be predictable somehow
04:17:41 <ais523> no, the entire point is that none of the bits are predictable, as far as cryptographers know, and it was intentionally designed with that property
04:20:03 <quintopia> hmm. well, have they proved that it doesn't contain hash loops?
04:21:08 <ais523> well, all hashing systems contain hash loops /eventually/
04:21:18 <ais523> but finding a short one is meant to be pretty much impossible
04:27:53 <oerjan> so there is no known SHA-1 quine?
04:29:47 <shachaf> a known fixed point for a cryptographic hash function would be p. suspect imo
04:37:49 <oerjan> apparently http://stackoverflow.com/a/235910/1088108 applies, it's about 67% probability a random function (which one would hope any hash function is in spirit) has fixed points. which does not help finding them.
04:39:16 <oerjan> some comment further down said 67% wrongly and my brain remembered the wrong one.
04:39:53 <shachaf> is there a card that discourages your opponent from jamming up their creatures?
04:41:38 <shachaf> "whenever an opponent puts a +1/+1 counter on a creature, ... deals 1 damage to that opponent" or something like that, i don't know
04:42:16 <zzo38> Or else, causes all power/toughness counter to be reversed???
04:42:55 <shachaf> that would also discourage an opponent from using jams
04:50:58 <quintopia> oerjan: hmm i'm blanking on how to calculate the probability of an oscillation hash of length two
04:52:01 <quintopia> ais523: is it possible to prove something is Turing-complete without actually knowing how to construct any useful programs whatsoever in it?
04:52:24 <ais523> quintopia: not sure; I can't think of a way to do that but it isn't obviously impossible
04:52:54 <ais523> barring a language where you can prove that a program that does X exists, but be unable to write it down due to trapdoor functions or the like
04:53:28 <quintopia> hardly a general technique/theorem
04:56:16 <shachaf> oerjan: are you also an expert in synthetic topology
04:59:42 <quintopia> ais523: do you think that, unless such techniques are known, it would be safe to say that proving this language TC is intractable?
04:59:52 <shachaf> for example why are these things called "synthetic"
05:01:31 <ais523> quintopia: yep, I wouldn't say it's necessarily impossible, but I'd say there's no known way to go about even starting to prove it TC
05:02:32 <quintopia> ais523: have you ever had any ideas for a proof of Self BCT?
05:04:39 <ais523> no, I haven't really looked at it though
05:04:41 <quintopia> tbh, i only came up with this idea so that i could have a language called "SHAring is CAring". it turns out to be far more intellectually stimulating that i would have hoped.
05:06:29 <oerjan> quintopia: you mean period 2?
05:07:01 <Sgeo> Neither Netflix nor Amazon Instant Video have Early Edition to stream :(
05:08:54 <quintopia> hey does anyone know if netflix has decided to support streaming to linux yet
05:09:10 <Sgeo> quintopia: nope (re hulu)
05:09:24 <Sgeo> Is Early Edition a good show?
05:09:51 <shachaf> if i remember correctly it has a neat premise but is p. repetitive
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05:10:31 <shachaf> also i think a lot of the episodes are on youtube or something like that? i don't remember
05:10:36 <Sgeo> I think I've seen one episode many many years ago, going to rewatch it
05:10:43 <Sgeo> Oh, actually, two episodes
05:17:50 <Sgeo> I'm enjoying this, but do not recognize this (the beginning) at all
05:19:06 <quintopia> i remember it being good. didn't it use to air after touched by an angel
05:19:41 <quintopia> Sgeo: if you want an awesome show to watch that was (last time i watched it) on hulu, try Regenesis
05:20:35 <Sgeo> Remind me tomorrow
05:20:45 <Sgeo> Or... I need some kind of list to list things I want to watch
05:21:13 <quintopia> best add that to your list of lists to make
05:22:43 <Sgeo> Ok, now I recognize the episode
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05:42:15 <zzo38> Watch Kaiji (based on the manga by Fukumoto); I think that TV show is really good
05:45:59 <zzo38> I have read about some programming language where you can call a subroutine multiple times if you put semicolons, such as print(a,b;c,1); being same as print(a,b); print(c,1); Do you know what ones have such thing? I don't really know, but I read something about it in some book.
05:51:20 <zzo38> Why don't they have a "memstr" function in C?
05:52:10 <Sgeo> A bit too powers-that-be-sy
05:52:56 <Sgeo> Also, once it's obvious what's going on, it's not obvious that there's any sort of limit. Except they put a trailer at the END of the episode, which gives a 3 chances limit, but... um... what.
06:00:22 <Sgeo> It makes me uneasy that Magic is so... centralized
06:00:32 <Sgeo> Even though... really, what else would I expect?
06:01:45 <Sgeo> https://31.media.tumblr.com/9d0510a3f9e9c0145ca98c5b76f3fca9/tumblr_inline_mzi6i3IoDp1ricn74.jpg
06:02:10 <Sgeo> I read about Slivers when I was a kid, but... it just didn't occur to me that their abilities would mix
06:02:19 <Sgeo> As in, between both opponents having slivers
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06:20:15 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376562
06:21:42 <Sgeo> Seems a bit powerful
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06:45:23 <Sgeo> I'm addicted to a comic that considers a game addicting
06:45:41 <ais523> <DaLuacaray> the price for this thing right now is hovering at around 40$. Y'know, about the same as the 100-card precon he comes in. Seriously, people.
06:49:17 <ais523> the only reason it hasn't completely broken Legacy in half is that it costs 3 and is weak to combo because it only does 3 damage per turn and the combo deck wasn't planning on blocking or removing it anyway
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06:54:30 <ais523> wow, it's currently selling for $50 when the deck it comes in costs $30 (and has, obviously, sold out)
07:00:56 <Sgeo> http://cardboard-crack.com/post/61266596221
07:01:31 <Sgeo> If the rules for each card can be programmed in, would brute-force be... well, no, it wouldn't be able to look at opponents library
07:06:46 <ais523> way too many possibilties, too, even in one-set block / one-set limited
07:07:55 <shachaf> what if it gained protection from one target opponent but then lost protection from another target opponent
07:08:05 <shachaf> so it would only be useful with more than one opponent
07:13:06 <zzo38> I am writing a program and I want to find a RAM signature in a quick save state file created by a NES/Famicom emulator. What is the best way to make such a search through the file?
07:15:13 <ais523> scan through memory, if you find a character that in't anywhere in the signature move forwards by the length of the signature, if you find a character that is in the signature but not the first move forwards by the number of characters that character is from the end of the signature, if you find the first character of the signature do a memcmp
07:16:15 <ais523> to see if the others match
07:16:22 <ais523> that's how fgrep works, IIRC
07:16:41 <ais523> it'd be a good algorithm to use for a hypothetical memmem function, too
07:17:26 <zzo38> The signature is five null bytes followed by "AARON.BLACK" although I could change it if it is necessary. Note that the signature does not occur in the ROM on purpose (in case the emulator saves the ROM too for some reason).
07:17:33 <pikhq> It is a shame there's not a memmem, yeah.
07:18:21 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, as well as "memmem" I also wanted "memdup" and a few other things
07:18:40 <pikhq> memdup's pretty trivial though.
07:18:58 <zzo38> Yes, it can easily be implemented.
07:19:22 <zzo38> Still, it would be useful to have like strdup is.
07:19:32 <pikhq> void *memdup(const void *s, size_t n) { void *x=malloc(n);if(!x)return x;memcpy(x,s,n);return x;}
07:19:44 <pikhq> I definitely agree it's a (moderately) useful function.
07:20:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I would do something like that to implement it, if I want to implement it.
07:21:13 <shachaf> I,I if (x)memcpy(x,s,n);return x;
07:21:22 <pikhq> Yeah, that's slightly simpler.
07:21:32 <ais523> pikhq: "if (!x) return x"?
07:21:45 <ais523> I'd write return NULL there, it's harder to follow the control flow otherwise
07:21:52 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it is better
07:22:01 <pikhq> return x?memcpy(x,s,n):x; :)
07:22:15 <ais523> like, why are you using a variable that's always NULL (forcing the reader to check it's always NULL), than just saying NULL (or 0 if you're golfing)
07:22:33 <pikhq> ais523: No reason at all, I agree it's cleaner that way.
07:24:00 <pikhq> void*memdup(const void*s,size_t n){void *x;return x=malloc(n)?memcpy(x,s,n):0;} // If we're gonna golf.
07:25:16 <shachaf> what if there were multiple NULLs that were indistinguishable to you
07:25:28 <pikhq> Then we're not talking C.
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07:26:18 <pikhq> You could as reasonably ask "what if there were multiple 1s"
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07:26:34 <shachaf> and also if c had, like, parametricity
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07:34:47 <shachaf> ais523: Well, those are just different ways of writing the same number.
07:35:23 <ais523> I was reading the Wikipedia archive a while back of the page where they moved all the arguments from people trying to claim they were different
07:35:41 <shachaf> But "what if there were multiple numbers d such that d^2 = 0" is more interesting
07:36:21 <zzo38> 1 and 0.999... are equal, even if they are different numbers somehow.
07:36:21 <ais523> shachaf: there's actually a common counterexample in topology
07:36:28 <ais523> which is identical to the reals except it has two different zeros
07:36:57 <shachaf> i was thinking of e.g. http://math.andrej.com/2008/08/13/intuitionistic-mathematics-for-physics/
07:37:16 <zzo38> IEEE 754 doesn't include all the reals, though, isn't it?
07:37:33 <shachaf> Maybe I should read _Counterexamples in Topology_! I heard that's a good book to read.
07:38:31 <ais523> anyway, it's really badly behaved, e.g. you can't always take limits because if the limit is 0, you have two equally good options
07:38:51 <shachaf> I I vaguely remember reading about that space.
07:42:01 <ais523> yes but I can't remember what it is
07:42:43 <shachaf> Maybe I'm thinking of the example in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_space#Disconnected_spaces
07:45:15 <pikhq> zzo38: Nor do the reals include all the IEEE 754 values.
07:45:48 <pikhq> I'm pretty certain that NaN is not a real.
07:45:54 <shachaf> "inclusion" is a funny concept
07:48:51 <shachaf> "inclusion" makes no sense in this context at all, actually
07:51:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that too, clearly.
07:52:17 <shachaf> if it's not a real why isn't it called NaR
07:52:36 <ais523> all reals are numbers, so NaN is a stronger statement
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08:49:18 <zzo38> How common is it to use instructions like TAX/TAY/TXA/TYA in a 6502 code only for adjusting the zero flag?
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10:07:10 <oklopol> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ConMan/Proof_that_0.999..._does_not_equal_1 ?
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10:12:00 <nooodl> oklopol: wow this page
10:12:11 <nooodl> it's such a trainwreck but i can't look away
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10:14:05 <nooodl> "Now, if we raise both sides to ∞,"
10:14:30 <oklopol> Logic and Mathmatical Induction[edit]
10:14:30 <oklopol> So, this is a proof against the .999... = 1 proof. It has to do with the identity of infinity, and that infinity is not always equal to infinity (no matter what they tell you).
10:15:21 <nooodl> "if any of you had any sort of real intelligence you would see that not only does .999... not equal to 1, but that there are no such things as fractions of any sort in reality,"
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10:19:12 <nooodl> Wikipedia would like you to believe that what they publish is mainstream mathematics. This is false. Wikipedia's math articles are the ideas of the core editing group. One should never believe anything. Nor should one trust any source.
10:21:40 <nooodl> Not only is 0.999... NOT equal to 1, but every academic has no idea what is a number. [...] Warning: Delete this post or move it to the end of your talk page and I will not share any more of my knowledge with you.
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10:28:01 <shachaf> Academics claim that every set has as a subset, the empty set. If {} is the empty set, then what sense does the set {{}} make? Answer: Nonsense. The object {{}} contains the empty set as a *subset* and also as an *element* Confused? I am not surprised. Of couse this makes perfect sense to academic ignoramuses who thing they can just *define* concepts without careful thought.
10:28:35 <shachaf> https://www.filesanywhere.com/fs/v.aspx?v=8b6966895b6673aa6b6c is like the time cube of 0.999...
10:29:14 <shachaf> 4 simultaneous days in 0.999... 24-hour rotations
10:29:27 <fizzie> I managed to close the page, but it didn't help, because all the worst parts keep spilling over to the channel.
10:31:56 <shachaf> "Consider nominating me for the Abel prize in mathematics. Winner is announced every year on March 31st. I am the discoverer of the first rigorous formulation of calculus in history. Given that hundreds, if not thousands of academics, tried unsuccessfully to formulate a rigorous calculus before me, the New Calculus is a historic and monumental achievement."
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10:53:09 <oklopol> the https://www.filesanywhere.com/fs/v.aspx?v=8b6966895b6673aa6b6c missed a pretty important detail in the definition of the Dedekind cut
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11:14:07 <FreeFull> nooodl: "fractions don't exist" is a pretty bold claim
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11:30:42 <Slereah_> GOD ONLY MADE INTEGERS FREEFULL
11:40:17 <b_jonas> no, god only made algebraic data types
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17:32:41 <copumpkin> int-e: did you ever continue work on that GHC closure serializer? I never took mine any further
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17:49:53 <int-e> I've learned about this related work in the meantime: http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.2017
17:57:45 <copumpkin> I'm still more interesting in the serialization aspect myself
18:01:28 <int-e> It's yet another doodle to revive. I have too many of those.
18:05:04 <int-e> Yes, that's firmly in the "useless, but fun" category.
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18:33:11 <fizzie> I've shared the others here too, so here's the latest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEiHZQw_2Qk
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19:10:16 <Sgeo> How much money did I just cause The Onion to get?
19:10:47 <Sgeo> There was a slideshow, "187 Images, Which, If Rapidly Clicked Through, Will Create The Illusion Of Motion", which I just clicked through all of them
19:10:52 <Sgeo> The animation itself was boring
19:10:58 <b_jonas> ah, the zeckendorf numbers!
19:11:21 <Bike> Sgeo: one hundred eighty seven billionths of a cent
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19:18:44 <ion> http://imgur.com/a/F7AcL
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20:06:41 <tswett> So. Haskell models of linear logic.
20:07:17 <tswett> I shall express my (ever-diminishing) confusion by using upside-down question marks.
20:07:29 <tswett> ¿How the heck does this stuff work?
20:10:25 <tswett> So the fundamental unit here is... let's call it a function, why not. The type of a function is a sequent, which consists of zero or more terms.
20:11:34 <tswett> If you have two sequents, one containing a term and the other containing the dual of that term, you can cut the two sequents together to form a new sequent containing all the terms of both sequents, with those two terms removed.
20:12:01 <tswett> So you can cut the sequent A, B, ~C with the sequent ~A, D, ~E to get the sequent B, ~C, D, ~E. Easy.
20:12:37 <tswett> And then program flow and parameters and return points and efsdalkj.
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20:28:11 <Sgeo> If someone came across an unopened Alpha booster, would it be better to open it to see if there are any very valuable cards, or leave it unopened to sell?
20:28:27 <tswett> I'd say almost definitely leave it unopened.
20:29:26 <shachaf> Weren't they somewhat transparent at that point so that you could look through the wrapper or something?
20:31:32 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0p4mRfLmCk
20:31:36 <tswett> An unopened pack can later be opened; an opened pack cannot later be unopened. So an unopened pack has at least as much expected value as an opened pack, plus extra value if they're significantly rarer than the equivalent cards.
20:31:41 <Sgeo> I guess that's somewhat anecdotal though
20:32:01 <tswett> In Haskell, return points cannot be duplicated or discarded: each function must return exactly once. They are not reified, however. You can't pass a return point into another function and have that function return on your behalf.
20:32:19 <Sgeo> tswett: is Paws relevent at all?
20:32:48 <Sgeo> http://paws.mu/
20:32:53 <Sgeo> Um, need to find better website
20:33:50 <Sgeo> Ah, this sucks
20:33:51 <Sgeo> "If you’re interested in Paws, you should join the IRC channel. There’s no coherent documentation on the underlying paradigm online; we’ve tried several times to compile such, and had no luck. It’s quite difficult to explain without an example interpreter to point people to, even on a one-on-basis; nearly impossible to do so with no example implementation and in a generalized anybody-who-reads-this form. (Yes, we know this situation
20:34:54 <Sgeo> https://github.com/Paws/Paws.js might be better?
20:36:40 <pikhq> Unopened Alpha packs are actually worth rather a lot more than the expected value of the contents, no?
20:37:22 <Sgeo> Considering the transparency thing, how does that effect the expected value?
20:37:46 <tswett> I'd say it doesn't. If you can see through the package, potential buyers can see through it, too.
20:38:27 <pikhq> Wouldn't any such transparency thing, given how the packs are laid out, only really let you see the commons?
20:38:39 <tswett> An especially rare Alpha card is really valuable, right? I'd expect an unopened Alpha pack that visibly contains an especially rare Alpha card to be way, way more valuable still.
20:39:18 <pikhq> (note that most of the Alpha commons are actually not worth much -- like, a couple bucks.)
20:40:28 <pikhq> Yes, especially rare Alpha cards go all the way up to $6k.
20:41:25 <Sgeo> I had a Portal book, not sure what happened to it
20:41:32 <Sgeo> Don't think I actually had any Portal cards
20:41:56 <pikhq> Of course, a decent cause of the cost of Alpha cards is that some of the more powerful ones were only printed in Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited.
20:42:53 <pikhq> There aren't any Revised Black Lotus out there, for instance.
20:43:16 <tswett> I'd think there must be a lot of counterfeit cards out there.
20:43:55 <zzo38> How balanced is it if a variant of Black Lotus that uses untap and sacrifice instead of tap and sacrifice to activate?
20:45:33 <pikhq> tswett: I imagine, though that's counterbalanced to some extent by the fact that there's a known (very small) quantity of some of these cards.
20:45:41 <pikhq> There exist 22,800 Black Lotuses.
20:46:19 <pikhq> It's just too small for a decent print run. Though, even a 1-off run has insane profit margines.
20:46:35 <Sgeo> Does Magic Online support un-cards?
20:47:07 <tswett> Heading out. See y'alls.
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20:48:12 <pikhq> There's also the issue that those cards are almost never seen in unplayed condition.
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20:52:25 <Sgeo> "1. Ass Whuppin'
20:52:25 <Sgeo> 2. Sleight of Mind "silver" to "black"
20:52:25 <Sgeo> 3. Stand up so you can see the entire room
20:52:25 <Sgeo> 4. Play Radiate
20:52:25 <Sgeo> Excuse me everyone, all of your permanents are destroyed."
20:54:40 <Sgeo> "@Mr. Wumples: Not good enough. I want to make everyone in the room lose their game. No matter which game they're playing. "Hey you guys, playing Scrabble? You all lost. Oh hey, 3.5 group? Excuse me? Your entire party just died. Yup. Sorry." Surely there must be a combo that can let me do that. Maybe in the next Un set?"
20:57:13 <zzo38> I once wrote some Un-card that everybody *win* the game, even news reporters who have never played and don't know how.
21:00:00 <zzo38> If your entire party just died I don't think that is necessarily a loss. And if you are playing Scrabble and all lost, well you still need to count the points!
21:24:28 <Bike> how would you lose your whole party and not have it be a loss
21:29:42 <quintopia> here you go: https://github.com/branan/cruller
21:30:17 <zzo38> Bike: In case you have already succeeded at the goal.
21:30:33 <zzo38> (Of course, the goal might include not dying, but it might not.)
21:31:33 <Bike> in my campaigns the only goal is friendship.
21:31:54 <quintopia> what if you have a campaign where the goal is to get everyone dead
21:34:27 <zzo38> quintopia: Such a thing is unlikely, but I suppose if that is the goal, then dying yourself would be the last step in completing it!
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21:35:54 <kmc> how about a campaign where everyone's goal is to be eaten first
21:36:07 <pikhq> That would be Call of Cthulhu.
21:39:54 <zzo38> I suppose you can tie at that.
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21:47:51 <zzo38> You could even have different people having different goals, too
21:49:55 <zzo38> Which might depend on your level, affiliations (with various churches, guilds, or Aberration Saver or Harper or International Astronomical Conspiracy or whatever), position relative to other player characters, and such thing may also affect how much of "lesser win" something is, and whether dying is still allowed to complete the goal or not, etc
21:52:46 * int-e goes reread the story of Old Man Henderson.
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21:53:53 <Bike> i just make everyone play the wall campaign
21:54:00 <Bike> oddly, friendships are usually lacking
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22:01:52 <Sgeo> Listening to a song I've associated with "Kernel Lisp is the best language!" even while preparing a criticism of Kernel Lisp
22:02:45 <Bike> that is a nerdassed association
22:03:43 <b_jonas> what the heck is kernel lisp?
22:04:55 <elliott> kernel lisp, scheme lisp, clojure lisp
22:04:55 <Bike> no static types, so worthless
22:05:21 <Sgeo> http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
22:05:43 <Sgeo> elliott: Kernel is such a sucky name that I have to change it to something else. klisp is tempting, but that's just the name of a particular implementation
22:06:00 <elliott> I didn't realise shutt had given ownership of kernel over to you
22:06:10 <Bike> Sgeo Lisp Enterprise Edition
22:06:40 <Bike> what's a word to put on the end with 'p'?
22:10:19 <Sgeo> I don't think that makes much sense here, but still
22:10:44 <Sgeo> 'p' and lisp makes me think of abominations like zerop
22:11:57 <int-e> I wonder whether EE goes together with Professional :)
22:12:46 <int-e> ("not only do we mean business, no, we believe we're good at it, too")
22:12:49 <Bike> when i think 'abomination' i imagine a wizard saying something very stern to a dark sorceress, rather than zerop
22:12:51 <olsner> Enterprise Edition for Professionals?
22:12:55 <b_jonas> I think I heared about that
22:17:43 <Sgeo> Where did I put my copy of klisp? :(
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22:43:27 <oerjan> <fizzie> I managed to close the page, but it didn't help, because all the worst parts keep spilling over to the channel. <-- word.
22:51:54 <Sgeo> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/klisp/g9tHOOfGYJU/xZOq4ctDLEIJ
22:53:37 <HackEgo> [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
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22:54:31 <kmc> is there a reversed upside down question mark
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22:57:04 <Sgeo> kmc: any thoughts on my post?
22:57:13 <Sgeo> Also, I am not at all happy about how closed off that group is
23:03:30 <kmc> `unidecode ﺫ
23:03:32 <HackEgo> [U+FEAB ARABIC LETTER THAL ISOLATED FORM]
23:04:07 <kmc> `unidecode 뻯
23:04:08 <HackEgo> [U+BEEF HANGUL SYLLABLE BBEGS]
23:05:17 <Sgeo> quintopia: there's a NetHack thing for unique deaths, I think
23:07:42 <ais523> unique deaths competitions are common in tournamnts
23:08:36 <Sgeo> Wonder if that's easier than ascending
23:09:09 <Sgeo> I mean, I know some deaths are more late-game, like the ones for negative controlled level teleports
23:10:15 <ais523> that one's pretty early
23:10:23 <ais523> there are some deaths only possible on Astral, those are late-game
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23:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> 'p' and lisp makes me think of abominations like zerop
23:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> lisp is actually the predicate to determine whether something is lis
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00:01:18 <FreeFull> I like question marks for predicates better
00:01:58 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: So it determines if something is a fox?
00:08:10 <oerjan> google is trying hard not to translate that either backwards or forwards
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00:33:08 <Sgeo> "Target player loses the game"
00:33:20 <Sgeo> Seems like it could be fun to redirect that targetting, there are cards that can do that, right?
00:33:50 <Sgeo> "This card is both funny, stupid, lame and awesome all rolled into one!"
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01:12:59 <kmc> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v3.12/arch/sparc/lib/checksum_32.S#L332-L335
01:14:49 <Bike> 8 byte aligned, kick ass
01:17:38 <Taneb> Would a 4-dimensional race discover the wire-crossing problem
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01:22:50 <zzo38> Taneb: Possibly, but not necessarily with the same kind of application.
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02:11:58 <ion> :-D http://www.theonion.com/articles/187-images-which-if-rapidly-clicked-through-will-c,34950/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
02:12:45 <kmc> utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
02:14:36 <Sgeo> I don't think that's The Onion's doing
02:14:50 <Sgeo> Maybe ion has some sort of anti-utm extension?
02:14:51 <ion> It had some more boring tracking data but i fixed it.
02:15:03 * Sgeo would be too lazy to fix the tracking data
02:15:20 <Sgeo> If I feel like removing it, I usually just delete it
02:15:32 <Sgeo> But linking the tracking data messes up the tracking anyway, doesn't it?
02:15:50 <shachaf> when i feel like removing it, i usually just remove it
02:16:20 <ion> sgeo: Well, it still tells them the source ended up spreading the link.
02:16:32 <ion> indirectly
02:20:28 <zzo38> ion: If they implemented that part.
02:20:58 <ion> I mean the source in utm_ parameters.
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02:22:19 <zzo38> Still, maybe the implementation is incomplete.
02:23:28 <zzo38> I don't like "Target player loses the game" but you can make up variants, such as "When any player has no cards in his hand he loses the game", or "Whoever's life total exceeds one million loses the game", etc.
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02:25:57 <shachaf> i don't think the phrase "his hand" would appear on any card
02:26:59 <zzo38> Probably you are correct it might say "his or her hand", or it will be reworded in an entirely different way instead.
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02:36:38 <kmc> yes I think singular "they" or rewording to avoid the pronoun is much better than "his or her", generally
02:36:44 <Sgeo> "her or his hand"
02:36:55 <Sgeo> "his hand" would then appear on a card
02:37:02 <kmc> part of why I like singular "they" is that it's good for trolling sphexish prescriptivists
02:37:16 <zzo38> I also use singular "they" sometimes
02:37:19 <kmc> sometimes you can even get them to accidentally use singular "they" while they're explaining why singular "they" is such an abomination
02:37:30 <Sgeo> I usually use Spivak pronouns
02:37:36 <Sgeo> Got the habit from Agora
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02:38:26 <kmc> I've met people who prefer Spivak pronouns and I've met people who prefer "it" but none of them actively object to singular "they"
02:39:05 <Sgeo> I object to "ey". I'm a traditionalist, "e" is much better.
02:39:16 <Sgeo> (Even though ey makes more sense)
02:39:23 <kmc> I don't know anyone who actively objects to singular "they", but they must exist
02:39:32 <kmc> probably the same people who get really upset if you say "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas"
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02:40:53 <kmc> I mean, other than the grammar prescriptivists
02:42:12 <Sgeo> I've seen the term eval-quote somewhere. I think I like it
02:42:40 <Sgeo> To describe Tcl and Rebol and perhaps lisps where you'd write (if (> 2 1) '(print "a") '(print "b"))
02:42:46 <Sgeo> Or something conceptually similar
02:43:34 <kmc> would you also include Kernel in that category
02:43:39 <kmc> with the quotation syntactically implicit
02:43:57 <Sgeo> I think I wouldn't, I could have sworn I saw the term used to contrast against kernel
02:44:01 <zzo38> I tried some thing to figure out how UTF-8 is implemented in SQLite, and I think it is OK. It is generalized enough to not be specific to Unicode (as long as you don't try to convert to/from UTF-16), and functions that convert uppercase/lowercase/etc work on ASCII characters only, so it work OK. According to my experiment it treats any 0xC0...0xFF followed by any sequence of 0x80...0xBF as a single character, which is what I want.
02:44:34 <zzo38> (Although I would have simplified it a bit by just ignoring 0x80...0xBF in the count regardless, but the other way works too.)
02:45:35 <Sgeo> Oh, this is where I got it from
02:45:35 <Sgeo> http://fexpr.blogspot.com/2013/07/explicit-evaluation.html
02:46:05 <Sgeo> Wand credited Albert Meyer for noting the trivialization effect. Meyer, though, noted that quote-eval (as opposed to fexprs) need not cause trivialization. (Meyer made this supplementary observation at least as early as 1986; see here, puzzle 3.)
02:46:32 <Sgeo> But the fexprs mentioned might not be Kernel fexprs, I guess? I didn't read the whole thing thoroughly
02:49:56 <Sgeo> kmc: did you see my post?
02:50:48 <kmc> "trivialization" refers to the equational theory?
02:53:03 <Sgeo> I meant my post on the klisp group
02:53:10 <kmc> yeah I saw it
02:57:43 <Sgeo> I wonder if there are any quote-eval languages as sanely designed as Kernel
02:57:52 <Sgeo> Don't really consider Rebol sanely designed
02:58:51 <zzo38> What is quote-eval languages?
03:01:38 <Sgeo> zzo38: no special forms, instead, you pass around blocks of code to functions that can then choose to interpret those blocks however they wish. Those blocks are not functions/closures, instead, they contain raw code
03:01:48 <Sgeo> Well, I guess there can be special forms
03:01:57 <Sgeo> And this is more my interpretation of the concept
03:02:12 <Sgeo> I don't know anything about dc to be able to say
03:05:00 <Sgeo> "Macros are then implemented by allowing registers and stack entries to be strings as well as numbers. A string can be printed, but it can also be executed (i.e. processed as a sequence of dc commands). So for instance we can store a macro to add one and then multiply by 2 into register m:"
03:05:19 <Sgeo> Is this the primary means of using conditionals and loops etc.?
03:05:23 <Sgeo> If so, I would say dc counts
03:05:46 <zzo38> And the meaning of the commands can even change if the input base changes.
03:07:17 <Sgeo> Anyways, I have another complaint about Kernel
03:09:57 <zzo38> What other complaint?
03:12:19 <Sgeo> Writing higher-order functions may be more difficult than it should be, due to a combination of factors, some of which are not fundamental to Kernel's central concept, some of which might be
03:12:56 <Sgeo> I'd say my other complaint is worse
03:17:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: does Underload count hth
03:18:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is the other one I thought of other than dc.
03:18:51 <zzo38> I would think it must count too
03:18:55 <oerjan> it seems to me that having both eval-quote and variable bindings would wreak havoc with lexical scoping, unless you reintroduce some way of capturing the environment of the caller, and isn't that what kernel does.
03:20:28 <oerjan> although dynamic binding would work. in fact i think Logo works this way, and may be quote-eval.
03:21:21 <Sgeo> oerjan: what Rebol does, which isn't perfect but is interesting, is have constructs that introduce a lexical scope go through all code it sees, and changes the words' scopes to a new object
03:21:31 <Sgeo> Each word has its own scope, basically
03:21:48 <Sgeo> Does make it harder to construct code from whole cloth if you're not given input though
03:22:05 <Sgeo> But in the normal case, I think it makes some sense
03:22:27 <Sgeo> http://blog.revolucent.net/2009/07/deep-rebol-bindology.html
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03:46:43 <Sgeo> A third criticism of Kernel, which I don't believe is significant enough to post (I think I saw it elsewhere): If you use applicatives to get an operative result, it's not necessarily immediately obvious that you're using an operative. And it feels like using operative results directly without naming them is part of the point
03:49:00 <shachaf> Underload [cost] (You may cast this spell for its underload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "each" with "target.")
03:55:54 <kmc> Sgeo: why are HoFs more difficult in Kernel?
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04:08:32 <Sgeo> kmc: look at how map and filter's rationales had to make a decision about whether to call their argument in the same dynamic environment or a clean one. This is a decision that needs to be made for each function that calls an argument function, and the choice isn't obvious (map makes one choice, filter makes another). I think filter's choice is mistaken, but if you go the other route, you may end up writing wrapped vaus instead of lambdas,
04:08:32 <Sgeo> if your HOF is itself returning a function
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04:08:56 <Sgeo> fwiw, I think map made the right choice and filter didn't, and that map's choice makes more sense in general
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04:09:16 <Sgeo> And apply should probably make the environment argument mandatory, it's something that always needs to be taken into consideration
04:09:29 <kmc> what's the "clean" environment?
04:09:58 <Sgeo> (make-environment)
04:10:10 <Sgeo> "using a fresh empty environment for each call." (in filter's definition)
04:11:32 <kmc> so in (filter (lambda (x) ...) xs) the lambda can't close over anything? or am I thinking of the wrong stage of evaluation?
04:12:26 <kmc> or is the question, if i write (filter (vau (x) env ...) xs), what's 'env'?
04:12:36 <Sgeo> kmc: that, I think
04:12:39 <Sgeo> the what's env
04:12:46 <Sgeo> filter has it be an empty environment, iiuc
04:12:59 <Sgeo> (Well, you forgot to wrap the vau)
04:15:43 <Bike> i think my main problem with kernel has been $define! introducing new variables, which possibly shadow above environments, since it makes static analysis fucking painful
04:15:58 <Sgeo> ". map calls its applicative argument using the dynamic environment of the call to map, because that behavior is followed by the code equivalence that map seeks to preserve; but filter has no comparable equivalence to preserve"
04:16:26 <Bike> i also think shutt's design principles are bizarre but w/e
04:16:27 <Sgeo> The way I interpret that rationale is "I can't find a nice equivalence to make the choice obvious, so I'll do whatever"
04:16:37 <kmc> Bike: which?
04:16:52 <Sgeo> I really, really like the design principles
04:17:05 <Sgeo> But I think they haven't been applied perfectly
04:26:32 <zzo38> When my brother plays Puzzle Strike he prefers to put all the gems on the bottom like in Puzzle Fighter (and the board resembles Puzzle Fighter, in fact), but I just arrange them in any order; it doesn't have any effect on the game.
04:29:09 <Sgeo> Most data in Kernel evaluates to itself
04:29:13 <Sgeo> Except symbols and lists
04:29:36 <Sgeo> I think there's a type problem with double-evalling, but the ability to double-eval some things is crucial to Kernel's hygiene approach
04:30:08 <Bike> you could reduce it a lot if you add a 'combine' applicative.
04:30:17 <Sgeo> But, lists don't play nice. They don't eval to themselves, simililarly to symbols. But Kernel goes out of its way to pretend that symbols are second-class citizens. It doesn't do the same with lists
04:30:21 <Bike> (combine foo bar baz) = (eval (cons foo bar) baz)
04:30:24 <Sgeo> I wonder if that's the root of some problems
04:33:57 <Sgeo> I definitely had some trouble inducing the problem I posted about when trying to make it with add instead of length
04:34:07 <Sgeo> Because double-eval on numbers is safe
04:53:14 <Sgeo> ) (/:{]) 3 1 2
04:53:32 <Sgeo> That isn't more line-noisey than Perl at all
04:53:57 <Sgeo> Also, /:{] is totally the best emoticon ever
04:59:06 <quintopia> oerjan: what would you call a 1 with a line over it for the purposes of unicode
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05:00:58 <quintopia> or maybe i have to use a combining overline
05:08:17 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not sure if Picolisp counts as eval-quote
05:08:41 <Sgeo> The distinction between reinterpretable data and actual functions goes away
05:09:08 <Sgeo> Oh, I should check what if looks like
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05:10:10 <deadnigstorage> mars in libra is now opposing my natal moon-mars aries conjunction
05:10:23 <Sgeo> oerjan: you awake?
05:11:01 <Bike> `welcome deadnigstorage
05:11:04 <HackEgo> deadnigstorage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:12:00 <oerjan> quintopia: why would i know about obscure unicode
05:13:35 <quintopia> oerjan: don't they call you "aejnor the great, master of cdeinou"
05:14:08 <oerjan> yes, but they are mistaken about the latter half.
05:17:05 -!- deadnigstorage has changed nick to musetteanddrums.
05:19:12 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
05:19:23 -!- elliott has kicked musetteanddrums musetteanddrums.
05:19:24 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
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05:19:53 <oerjan> what did e do (apart from being in the wrong place)
05:20:04 <musetteanddrums> YOU (musetteanddrums) have been booted from #esoteric by elliott (musetteanddrums) ¿???
05:20:26 <elliott> oerjan: racist nick combined with nonsense intiial message
05:22:14 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think mistaking the channel for the other kind of esoteric is a bannable offense
05:22:29 <elliott> oerjan: thankfully I didn't ban them :)
05:22:40 <elliott> I'm pretty sure "deadnigstorage" goes against freenode guidelines for names if it has any though.
05:23:30 <kmc> hey I like Pulp Fiction too but there are probably a lot of better choices for a nick based on that film
05:23:41 <zzo38> musetteanddrums: "mars in libra is now opposing my natal moon-mars aries conjunction" isn't useful here, even though it might be true, it has no use.
05:24:39 <zzo38> What exactly looked so empty, this channel?
05:25:08 <zzo38> Yes; there is logs, mentioned in the topic message.
05:27:00 <pikhq> Sometimes it's pretty quiet, other times it's pretty active.
05:27:06 <pikhq> Such is the flow of IRC.
05:27:43 <Bike> "what's with the racist nick" "uh hello i was just making conversation"
05:27:47 <zzo38> I don't really care myself about if you want to talk about Mars Aries conjunction and whatever but note that it isn't really the topic here. (However, it is also the case that we are not always being on-topic.) (The topic here is about computer programming)
05:29:09 -!- kmc has set topic: The Mars Aries conjunction and whatever | 22nd IOCCC results: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2013 | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:29:19 <musetteanddrums> hey guys, it's over. Why don't we just start talking about useful stuff relating Esoteric programming?
05:29:27 <kmc> musetteanddrums: ok you first
05:29:37 <zzo38> musetteanddrums: Did you see the esolang wiki?
05:29:58 <Bike> just ban them please
05:30:09 <oklopol> why should musetteanddrums start?
05:30:19 <oklopol> you are the ones being assholes
05:30:51 <pikhq> oklopol: Eir nick initially contained a racial slur.
05:31:10 <Bike> it's cool they were just joking chill out
05:31:20 <oklopol> i know, but he changed it, and it was a pulp fiction reference i hear, maybe he thought that's fine.
05:31:36 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/WKTL Anywho, anyone wanna figure out what this'd be like in C++?
05:31:58 <kmc> I'm not really hung up on the nick anymore, I just think it's weird to say "let's talk about topic X" without having anything to say about topic X
05:32:10 <kmc> i do it sometimes though
05:32:25 <zzo38> kmc: I think you are correct
05:32:41 <kmc> pikhq: what is this code
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05:34:02 <elliott> "LC_MESSAgES" is that intentional
05:34:12 <kmc> pikhq: which parts do you think would change for C++
05:34:19 <kmc> like, do you imagine doing the file stuff with iostreams?
05:34:34 <pikhq> kmc: To compile as C++? Very little. For idiomatic C++? I've no idea.
05:34:37 <kmc> cause it's not using C stdio either
05:34:40 <zzo38> How common is a Moon-Mars conjunction near 19 degrees of ecliptic longitude anyways? Now I am curious to know how rare it is, to know how easily to guess a birth date or date of other event based on such a thing if it occurs simultaneously with the other event.
05:34:52 <pikhq> I... guess you could *do* iostreams? Though that'd be about as crazy-useless as C stdio.
05:34:53 <zzo38> pikhq: I am not very good at C++ really
05:35:04 <zzo38> But don't many C functions still working in C++?
05:35:14 <kmc> write RAII wrappers for everything with error handling
05:35:22 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, C and C++ have a very large common subset.
05:35:34 <kmc> pikhq: I guess you would use std::string instead of strcpy and strcat
05:35:59 <pikhq> Most of that's going to be pretty identical though.
05:36:01 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know, but it isn't quite compatible (unlike Objective-C, which is a real superset of C).
05:36:02 <kmc> I love how essentially every UNIX program contains a function equivalent to that my_write(). great API ya got there
05:36:13 <kmc> `quote subset.*superset
05:36:20 <kmc> `quote superset.*subset
05:36:22 <HackEgo> 1157) <mauke> C++ is a superset of a subset of C
05:36:36 <zzo38> Yes, that is the way to describe C++.
05:36:39 <pikhq> Yes, it's a really dang stupid misdesign.
05:36:49 <pikhq> (the write system call, that is)
05:36:56 <Bike> what's my_write do
05:37:05 <kmc> writes until it cannot write no more
05:37:25 <pikhq> Bike: It's like write, except it actually is guaranteed to write the whole buffer or error out.
05:37:33 <kmc> pikhq: I think it's fair to say that's userspace's problem, but there should be a totally standard userspace library for it, then
05:37:37 <pikhq> Rather than write 0 or more bytes of the buffer.
05:37:44 <pikhq> kmc: That's stdio. :)
05:37:49 <kmc> yeah, except not
05:38:14 <pikhq> Yeah, stdio has way more in it than that, and fwrite might be permitted to do partial writes....
05:38:37 <kmc> "0 or more bytes" hey at least it can't write -1 bytes!
05:38:59 <pikhq> At least fwrite doesn't indicate "I wrote 0 bytes" by returning -1 and having errno = EINTR.
05:39:04 <shachaf> there should be a name for all four of "zero or more" "one or more" "zero or one" "exactly one"
05:39:17 <shachaf> usually people name three of them and leave the last one unnamed
05:39:29 <shachaf> right, or "linear" "affine" "relevant"
05:39:41 <shachaf> so many names for these things
05:40:13 <kmc> "*" "+" "?" ""
05:40:18 <kmc> the empty string is a name, right?
05:40:29 <kmc> i bet it's hard to give your child the empty string as a name
05:53:17 <Sgeo> "The ogre appealed the match loss and got it downgraded to a warning."
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05:57:53 <pikhq> "If a file is created, the file's permission bits shall be set to S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR." Sigh. That's not "as modified by umask".
06:02:32 <Sgeo> "The Unhinged land cards should be reprinted in other sets. My roommate is so impressed with my one Unhinged Plains that he almost offered to trade me a rare for it, before I stopped him."
06:36:07 <Sgeo> "I really want to naturalize one of these while my opponent has the infinite mana so they take infinity damage.
06:36:07 <Sgeo> With M2010, this won't be possible.:("
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07:14:17 <Sgeo> "Yes. The example merely stopped at four for space reasons. (We didn't have space to include examples for all natural numbers.)"
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07:28:29 <Jafet> Book your next convention at the Hilbert Hotel.
07:28:57 <Sgeo> "As of January 20, 2014, the World Community Grid (through ComputingForGood) gives away 1.5 million XRP per day to individuals who donate spare processor time to analyze aspects of the human genome, HIV, dengue fever, muscular dystrophy, cancer, influenza, rice crop yields and clean energy."
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07:46:04 <Sgeo> I think I have a solution
07:46:34 <Sgeo> ($define! list-quote (lambda (x) (cons (unwrap list) x)))
07:46:58 <Sgeo> ($define! list-quote ($lambda (x) (cons (unwrap list) x)))
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07:55:49 <Sgeo> What's a name for a one directional inverse?
07:57:28 <Sgeo> An operation f and inverse g such that f(g(x)) = x but g(f(x)) not necessarily = x
07:58:10 <shachaf> g is a right inverse of f, and f is a left inverse of g
07:58:48 <shachaf> g is a section of f, and f is a retraction of g
07:58:56 <oklopol> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_(category_theory) )
07:58:57 <Sgeo> list-quote is a right inverse of eval
07:59:10 <Sgeo> (Well, not sure how exact that statement can be)
08:00:05 <shachaf> If a functor has a right inverse, is it also a right adjoint?
08:00:32 <oklopol> Sgeo: in category theory, you say "i'm sure it's exact in some sense" and trust no one trusts their instincts enough to claim there's no such interpretation
08:00:38 <oklopol> i learned this from oerjan
08:07:59 <zzo38> The "Attribute Zone" Famicom game now you can see how much is made up already (which isn't enough to play the game, but the editor works): http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10913
08:08:20 <zzo38> Please try to make a comment/question/complain about it, if you are capable to do so.
08:08:48 <shachaf> Of course, inverses of functors aren't a very nice concept.
08:12:18 <quintopia> zzo38: when you have a working version can you make a video of you playing it
08:13:34 <zzo38> quintopia: No, I won't post any videos. Possibly a screenshot, though.
08:13:53 <quintopia> zzo38: you don't have a screen recorder?
08:15:48 <zzo38> I don't have any, but even if I do I don't want to post any videos.
08:16:11 <quintopia> why not? videos are cool. i like videos.
08:16:22 <quintopia> they show off gameplay much better than screenshots.
08:19:49 <zzo38> Then you can make a video if you want to, but I don't want to post any videos. Maybe it might work better anyways if different people who aren't knowing what to expect would make the report, then it is less biased.
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08:20:52 <zzo38> I am having the problem with program to record the level on a audio tape; the emulator just makes a file full of 0x70 instead of the proper data.
08:29:23 <Sgeo> When you say it's based on it, do you mean gameplay is a reference to it, or does its implementation utilize that fact somehow, or both?
08:29:34 <Sgeo> [the limitation thingy you mentioned]
08:33:10 <zzo38> The implementation uses such a fact in order to design the way objects work in the game.
08:38:44 <quintopia> do you have anything explaining the rules of the game
08:39:03 <quintopia> that i don't have to download and unpack a zip to read
08:39:05 <zzo38> Other than a prototype made in QBASIC, no.
08:40:25 <zzo38> But I can describe it a little bit: You can move your piece to push boxes and collect gems and so on, however with limitations, one being that it won't move if there is already something else of a different color in the same 2x2 area, and that no more than eight sprites are allowed per row.
08:40:41 <shachaf> is it like Potion of Confusing
08:40:51 <zzo38> Other than the two levels made in the QBASIC version, there are no other puzzles, and I don't know if it is easy or hard enough.
08:41:35 <zzo38> shachaf: Not really, although it shares that the pieces move on the grid, one of which you control directly.
08:42:09 <shachaf> maybe you should call it Potion of Makes Perfect Sense
08:45:24 <quintopia> how could it be called that if it's called Attribute Zone
08:45:48 <quintopia> maybe the name could be called Potion of Makes Perfect Sense
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10:06:25 <Bike> ed http://textfiles.com/100/balls.txt
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10:43:23 <myname> is there some connection between turing completeness and boolean logic? i.e. if i am able to calculate the result of arbitrary boolean expression, will i be turing complete?
10:46:52 <oklopol> no, you will be P complete
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15:47:59 <boily> good t\noops morning!
15:49:29 * FireFly hands myname a CNF formula to satisfy
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17:18:30 <quintopia> is there an "ideas" category that we can relegate Mahagugu's not-fully-fleshed-out language ideas to?
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17:32:10 <boily> “Category:Not Enough Food for a Zombie”
17:35:04 <boily> meanwhile, new item for my next Paranoia campaign: Bone Exploding Dyadic Functile Hyper-Arrows.
17:35:25 <boily> also, quinthellopia!
17:35:28 <metasepia> CYUL 201700Z 32004KT 15SM SCT055 OVC090 M13/M22 A2966 RMK SC3AC5 SLP047
17:36:54 <metasepia> EFHK 201720Z 05006KT 9000 -SN BKN026 M13/M15 Q1033 TEMPO 6000
17:39:17 * boily hi-fives fizzie. or minus-thirteens him, in that case...
17:44:19 * boily hands quintopia a bird stump. in a GM voice: “It is quite heavy, and ugly. It has... well... depictions of things engraved on its surface. Your mission is to transport it safely and activate it.”
17:45:16 <quintopia> YES SIR FRIEND COMPUTER SIR YOU CAN COUNT ON ME
17:46:27 <boily> you don't have the clearance to use capital letters. please excuse yourself in the [REDACTED] alphabet before you are to gladfully terminate yourself a the nearest Center.
17:47:27 <quintopia> excuse me computer. i would gladfully terminate myself if you asked me to. you know that don't you. of all of everyone i love and trust you the most.
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18:17:20 <int-e> hey, is breaking the second wall allowed? http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140120
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18:22:17 <boily> back from lunch, and I terminated a delicious soup.
18:23:12 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
18:23:16 <metasepia> LOWI 201750Z 06007KT 9999 -RA FEW025 SCT040 BKN055 05/02 Q1003 NOSIG
18:24:50 <metasepia> KATL 201752Z 28008KT 10SM FEW250 16/M04 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP153 T01611044 10161 20006 58021 $
18:25:55 <boily> +16? you... you little... AAAAAURGH!
18:26:03 <boily> (also, your station need maintenance.)
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18:33:00 <quintopia> hmm i think i'll go out and enjoy this beautiful day
18:36:02 <int-e> You keep reminding me that I have no working compose key.
18:36:18 <boily> I don't have any either.
18:39:14 <int-e> hmm. interesting, that would work.
18:39:45 <boily> kmc: the Power of AltGr all the way, with some Mod5 and Shift inbetween.
18:40:36 <boily> I can get ^, ¨, `, ̣, ̉ and ° over a single key!
18:40:38 <int-e> I'd need a reference card (Sure ... I could make my own.)
18:40:53 <boily> (weird... part of my PRIVMSG disappeared...)
18:41:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ~àþ: not found
18:41:38 <boily> int-e: I forgot how to print one. there's this X utility that can get you a postscript of your keyboard layout, but I can't remember for the fungot of me how it's done.
18:41:39 <fungot> boily: how annoying :( :( :( :(
18:41:53 <boily> fungot: I know. and for once, I welcome your sentience.
18:41:54 <fungot> boily: alert. english dying. not that c++ is nice, btw. i probably would have shut me up for an hour. i'll have to
18:42:33 <int-e> "I'll have to" has become fungot's favourite closing statement.
18:42:33 <fungot> int-e: scheme is also useful in eval. ( it took a bit of overhead on the scheme flavor, i guess.
18:43:52 <int-e> it's still hit and miss.
18:44:00 <fungot> boily: clearly forcer's whole town is dangerously liberal. sure, they say that?
18:45:43 <kmc> fungot: fungot
18:45:43 <fungot> kmc: esobot wasn't responding in channel foo"
18:46:45 <kmc> boily: what's Mod5
18:46:58 <int-e> the 5th X11 modifier
18:47:29 <kmc> mm, but what do you use it for
18:47:30 <int-e> likely one of the windows keys
18:48:38 <boily> the windows keys are Mod4. on my keyboard it's the right control key.
18:51:06 <int-e> Oh does anybody here know how to make xmodmap settings apply to freshly plugged in keyboards?
18:52:55 <kmc> I don't; I just re-run xmodmap
18:52:59 <boily> int-e: setxkbmap if you have to, then «xmodmap .Xmodmap».
18:53:30 <boily> (also, «xset b off» is a lifesaver if you have headphones.)
18:56:25 <int-e> boily: I'm doing that. But my laptop keeps forgetting this setting when I move it around (there's a docking station involved, and possibly a suspend/wakeup cycle). I just have no clue why.
18:57:59 <int-e> (well that was a lie: I'm doing xset -b to disable the bell.)
18:59:22 <metasepia> ESSA 201850Z 10008KT 9999 BKN024 M03/M07 Q1028 R01L/710168 R08/710158 R01R/710175 NOSIG
19:00:03 <metasepia> ESKN 201850Z 10012KT 9999 FEW025 M03/M07 Q1025 R08/450195
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20:11:56 <metasepia> tensor definition: a muscle that stretches a part.
20:12:01 <boily> ~duck tensor product
20:12:01 <metasepia> In mathematics, the tensor product, denoted by , may be applied in different contexts to vectors, matrices, tensors, vector spaces, algebras, topological vector spaces, and modules, among many other structures or objects.
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20:16:42 <kmc> `unidecode —
20:54:06 <boily> speaking of the Yearly Things, I'm eager to try out 0.14. there's a new god in an experimental branch!
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21:14:46 <elliott> boily: oh no, which awful god idea did someone actually code?
21:23:47 <Bike> there's been decss news lately so my mind's scrambled i guess
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21:41:07 <Sgeo> So, the klisp person suggested I'm missing the point, and as far as I could tell by skimming, is saying that quotation isn't necessarily evil when necessary
21:41:24 <Sgeo> But I didn't read it thoroughly yet
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21:44:33 <boily> elliott: Dithmengos, god of shadows. kind of like an anti-TSO crossed with ninja stuff. sounds fun!
21:45:42 <elliott> at least it's not goldgod or randgod
21:47:13 <boily> meanwhile, I need to raffine my strategies when exploring pan. I had a nice game going on over the weekend, and once again I very stupidly screwed it up.
21:48:48 <nooodl> do more zigs. dont do tomb. skip tomb
21:52:03 <Bike> pikhq: yeah, the court case documents are being mass scanned
21:52:35 <boily> nooodl: I kinda stupidly die in zigs too. and I like Tomb. Tomb is plenty of intense and fun challenges!
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22:51:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> there should be a name for all four of "zero or more" "one or more" "zero or one" "exactly one" <-- you are missing "exactly zero", "more than one" and "zero, or more than one" hth
22:53:02 <oerjan> (that's 7, the 8th one would be "neither zero nor more", but i assume that's a contradiction in the context)
22:53:05 <shachaf> oerjan: let's call them "phantom", "superlinear", and "nonlinear"
22:53:21 <shachaf> hm, probably "nonlinear" isn't good
22:53:31 <ais523> oerjan: I think the 8th one is "neither zero, nor one, nor more than one"
22:54:02 <oerjan> ais523: shachaf didn't express "zero or more" that verbosely, so i don't see why the negation should be.
22:54:19 <ais523> oh, "less than zero", then
22:54:43 <shachaf> p. sure we're only talking about natural numbers
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22:55:05 <oerjan> if we include negative as a possibility, we immediately get 8 more options.
22:55:57 <shachaf> anyway i don't care about any of these v. much
22:56:13 <shachaf> i think the four i specified should have names
22:56:40 <ais523> well, for integers, "one or more" is "positive", isn't it?
22:57:36 <oerjan> many, many1, optional and id
22:57:52 <shachaf> The sort of situation I'm talking about is + ? *
22:57:59 <shachaf> Or "relevant" "affine" "linear"
22:58:08 <oerjan> shachaf: well the last one is the empty modifier
22:58:09 <shachaf> Or "exists" "unique" "exists unique"
22:58:38 <shachaf> oerjan: OK, but you have to pick which one is the default.
22:58:41 <oerjan> i think "unique" usually implies "exists" when unqualified.
22:59:28 <shachaf> how about "inverses are unique"
23:00:07 <oerjan> "relevant", "affine", "linear" i would say the remaining one there is "classical"
23:00:35 <shachaf> the same thing also comes up with linear/affine/relevant transformations
23:00:45 <shachaf> (not that i've ever heard of anyone talking about a relevant transformation)
23:01:27 <oerjan> i'm sure something's getting mixed here.
23:01:32 <Bike> "The code associated with this article is provided as graphical screenshots embedded in a Word document."
23:02:13 <oerjan> Bike: please tell me that's a reviewer's reason for rejecting it.
23:02:31 <shachaf> what's getting mixed up here
23:02:46 <Bike> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0085047
23:03:29 <oerjan> shachaf: first, "classical" should probably be "intuitionistic", secondly i have no idea how "relevant" would apply to algebra.
23:04:02 <shachaf> i thought you meant "classical" in a different sense
23:04:25 <shachaf> as an example, f(x) = ax^1 is a linear map; g(x) = ax^1 + bx^0 is an affine map
23:04:48 <shachaf> so perhaps h(x) = ax^n + bx^(n-1) + ... + yx^1 would be a relevant map
23:05:02 <shachaf> (between one-dimensional vector spaces)
23:05:28 <oerjan> Bike: your text does not appear within the page you linked
23:06:15 <Bike> i quote a comment.
23:06:33 <Bike> you can look at the appendix dot doc yourself if you want
23:06:48 <shachaf> oh, the interpretation was that the authors of this thing wrote that in their own thing
23:07:05 <oerjan> Bike: oh the comments are not on the same page.
23:07:25 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway what would that mean more generally
23:08:23 <Bike> oerjan: yeah, it's a bit weird, until you remember commments sections are terrible
23:09:17 <oerjan> shachaf: i do not find your relevant definition intuitively related to the others
23:09:57 <shachaf> uh, y is a coefficient here, by the way, just an oddly named one
23:11:00 <oerjan> the definition of linear and affine.
23:11:40 <shachaf> well, one has an x^1 term, and one has x^1 and x^0 terms
23:12:19 <oerjan> yes but higher powered terms are meaningless for general vector spaces.
23:12:50 <shachaf> ok this is what i'm paying you for, to make it make sense
23:14:27 <oerjan> i know this nice nigerian prince who can do that for you.
23:17:49 * Sgeo considers buying some Unhinged lands for the art
23:20:10 <zzo38> The better basic lands art for Un-set would be the one with picture of an airplane for a "Plains" card.
23:21:58 <Sgeo> Is there one like that, or is that something you want?
23:22:22 <zzo38> Something I once put into the computer; there is no such thing like that for actual as far as I know though.
23:22:31 <ais523> Sgeo: there isn't, basic lands are tournament legal no matter what set they come fro
23:22:42 <ais523> so they have to look like islands, etc., so that they can be recognised by the art
23:23:02 <shachaf> what is the point of the art anyway
23:23:05 <pikhq> The art doesn't matter even remotely.
23:23:14 <pikhq> The only thing that matters is the card name.
23:23:19 <Sgeo> Except in un- games
23:23:50 <pikhq> Well, the expansion symbol can also matter outside of Un-.
23:23:55 <pikhq> (very, very rarely)
23:24:20 <ais523> apparently the art is what tournament players most commonly use to recognise cards
23:24:26 <ais523> because it's the largest part of the card
23:24:31 <ais523> pikhq: not any more, they erratad it
23:24:39 <ais523> to "cards first released in Homelands", etc.
23:24:49 <pikhq> Oh for fuck's sake!
23:25:09 <Sgeo> ais523: ... I could never memorize cards like that
23:25:13 <Sgeo> Except for the basic lands
23:25:16 <Sgeo> And even then...
23:25:25 <zzo38> You need to make a list of what cards have been first released in Homelands, then.
23:25:29 <Sgeo> Can easily imagine myself confusing a basic and nonbasic land
23:25:43 <Sgeo> zzo38: or have one handy. Which seems annoying for casual play
23:26:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: It seems fine to me. If using such a card in a preconstructed deck or if you are drafting Homelands, then have such a list.
23:27:06 <pikhq> The one thing I hate most is errata that changes functionality for no good reason.
23:27:31 <fizzie> kmc: ISO_Level3_Shift is often mod5, I think. It certainly is that here.
23:28:04 <Sgeo> pikhq: what about not having errata and that changes how powerful a card is?
23:28:16 <zzo38> I think Magic: the Gathering rules are way too klugy and have various stupid things.
23:28:20 <pikhq> That's what bans are for.
23:28:21 <Sgeo> mana burn goes away, cards that interacted with mana burn receive no errata, some become more or less powerful
23:28:37 <pikhq> Incidentally, I hate the loss of mana burn.
23:28:49 <fizzie> (Also called "the AltGr key".)
23:28:59 <Sgeo> I'm kind of sad that Interrupts no longer exist
23:29:02 <zzo38> I also hate the loss of mana burn, although I like the change of "remove from game zone" to "Exile".
23:29:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: They do, they're calling "Instant" now.
23:29:25 <zzo38> But a lot of the rules even ones that were much older I don't like it much either.
23:29:28 <pikhq> The pre-6th rules were nasty.
23:30:10 <zzo38> I think rule of +1/+1 and -1/-1 removing each other is klugy and stupid, and the rule about Auras that are also creatures to be discarded is really stupid, and various other things too.
23:30:21 <Sgeo> removing each other?
23:30:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: As a state-based effect, a pair of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on a permanent cease to exist.
23:30:52 <pikhq> Introduced in Shadowmoor.
23:31:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes; it doesn't apply to -1/-0 vs +1/+0 or two -1/-1 against a single +2/+2 or whatever; only to +1/+1 and -1/-1; and I think is stupid anyways. Better to just you have to keep track by yourself.
23:31:23 <Sgeo> Seems pointless, but I bet there are actual gameplay effects
23:31:58 <Sgeo> I think I like the flavor of having both instants and interrupts
23:32:01 <zzo38> The rules are really klugy anyways.
23:32:01 <Sgeo> Faster than instantly
23:32:41 <zzo38> I think having instants and no interrupts is fine though
23:33:17 <pikhq> Note that "interrupt" existed for the sole purpose of letting you counter spells.
23:33:28 <pikhq> Because timing was weird.
23:33:48 <shachaf> kmc/copumpkin: wow, that hacker news thread you linked to is the worst thing, why did i read it
23:36:16 <Sgeo> I believe I was introduced to Magic during Tempest... except I don't remember a Mana Source card type
23:36:31 <Sgeo> But the Dark Ritual art from Tempest is the one that seems most familiar to me
23:36:45 <Sgeo> (A girl gave me that card and asked me to explain it to her)
23:42:16 <oerjan> <int-e> hey, is breaking the second wall allowed? http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140120 <-- you expect _othar_ to ask for permission?
23:43:48 <int-e> oerjan: No, of course not. He *is* a hero and a spark.
23:44:07 <int-e> shachaf: I considered that, but don't we usually count clockwise or counterclockwise?
23:44:26 <oerjan> shachaf: it's either second or fourth, the walls are numbered ... what int-e said.
23:44:30 <int-e> And we do know which the fourth wall is.
23:44:50 <shachaf> i thought they were numbered back to front
23:44:59 <shachaf> that's how i would number walls
23:45:35 <shachaf> i thought you meant breaking from one frame to another one
23:45:44 <shachaf> until i saw the picture :'(
23:45:54 <int-e> idl-e, hmm. I'm preparing slides for wednesday, and I should sleep.
23:46:42 <shachaf> wednesday, the middle of the week
23:48:47 <oerjan> in int-e's native language, that's _literally_ true.
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23:50:31 <oerjan> shachaf: how dare you cry at the great Othar Tryggvassen (Gentleman Adventurer!)
23:50:44 <ais523> I came up with the concept of "breaking the fifth wall", it's where the medium via which the show is being communicated become relevant, as in not just "the characters are aware of the audience", but "the characters are aware of the properties of the screen that's being used to show them"
23:50:50 <ion> Sure, let’s run some Python code for every packet on a 10 Gbit/s link and do a string comparison, too. http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4686941&cid=46012021
23:51:07 * oerjan sometimes is annoyed at how the foglio's decided to spell his last name
23:51:19 <shachaf> ais523: i think that's part of the same wall
23:51:35 <shachaf> anyway i think that's much more interesting in the context of a play than in the context of something on a screen
23:51:42 <ais523> shachaf: well it's a different one because the audience are aware of themselves, but aren't necessarily aware of that
23:52:13 <shachaf> i would like to see a play in which the characters eventually discover that they are characters in a play
23:52:33 <shachaf> except it's serious rather than some sort of gag
23:52:48 <ais523> I guess the fifth wall in the play would be when the characters became aware of what actors were playing them
23:53:12 <shachaf> well, that's what i mean, anyway
23:53:17 <ais523> normally when the fourth wall is broken in a play, that doesn't matter, you can swap out the actors and it still work
23:54:16 <shachaf> i'm not sure it makes sense to call it a wall
23:55:16 <ais523> I'm not sure it makes sense to call the fourth wall a wall either
23:56:30 <Sgeo> "Keep in mind that macros are not an officially supported feature of Oz."
23:56:38 <Sgeo> So... how does this macro stuff work then
23:57:08 <ais523> it works, it's just not officially supported
23:59:23 <Sgeo> :/ I want officially supported macros
00:00:51 <Sgeo> https://github.com/mozart/mozart/blob/master/doc/macro/macro.sgml looks like what the list comprehension thing uses, but I want something more readable
00:04:58 <ais523> (btw, I don't know the answer, I'm just guessing based on the conversation)
00:08:37 <kmc> shachaf: you should never click hacker news links even if i send them to you
00:12:12 <ais523> kmc: is that aimed at shachaf in particular or people in general?
00:12:16 <ais523> I hardly ever visit Hacker News
00:12:36 <ais523> also, I seem to have developed a weird ability to escape TV Tropes
00:13:04 <Bike> unimaginable ¬_¬
00:14:04 <ais523> like, I follow less than one link on average per page, and intentionally open pages I've already seen just to have something to read
00:15:39 <shachaf> didn't Bike invent tvtropes or something
00:16:55 <ais523> HackEgo: that doesn't answer the question
00:17:19 <ais523> also, I don't think Luxembourg's in UTC-8, so he/she must have moved
00:17:36 <kmc> what is meant by "breaking the second wall"
00:17:38 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
00:17:49 <shachaf> (in http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140120 )
00:18:15 <kmc> do i have to, like, know anything about this comic to get it
00:18:25 <shachaf> i don't know anything about it
00:18:32 <shachaf> it's just the person tearing through the back of the comic
00:19:30 <Bike> pretty sure the walls should be labeled like die faces
00:21:41 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
00:22:04 <Sgeo> When was that last bit added?
00:22:38 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, and Go.
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00:22:49 <Bike> which remind sme, i really oughta get creatures now that i have a computer
00:22:55 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
00:23:03 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
00:23:25 <shachaf> Bike: Broken Age has creatures
00:23:38 <Sgeo> Bike: DS is free, if that helps
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00:24:47 <Bike> Sgeo: yeah, i know.
00:24:47 <shachaf> `run ln -s torus wisdom/'the torus'
00:24:51 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/the torus': File exists
00:24:59 <Bike> shachaf: i've heard lots of good stuff. is there a linux version?
00:25:28 <shachaf> i think it's only available to non-kickstarter-people on the 28th
00:25:45 <shachaf> `run ls -l wisdom/'the torus'
00:25:47 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Jan 21 00:24 wisdom/the torus -> torus
00:25:58 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
00:26:08 <shachaf> did someone do that in /msg
00:26:10 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:26:18 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, and Go.
00:26:31 <Bike> what's tom schafer known for again
00:26:37 <Bike> did he do the skeleton game
00:27:00 <Bike> whatever. that guy.
00:27:20 <shachaf> "Schafer is best known as the designer of critically acclaimed games Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, and Brütal Legend, and co-designer of the early classics The Secret of Monkey Island, Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge and Day of the Tentacle."
00:27:42 <Bike> yeah, the skeleton game, right.
00:27:51 <Bike> maybe i should play day of the tentacle, scummvm should bef ine
00:27:58 <Bike> i should get a mouse that works for point and clicks, though.
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00:28:30 <shachaf> i used a touchpad for Broken Age
00:28:47 <Bike> well, i don't have a touchpad.
00:29:30 <shachaf> kmc: you should play Broken Age too
00:29:34 <shachaf> if you're "into that kind of thing"
00:35:37 <int-e> isn't it only half done though ...
00:37:08 <int-e> You can now access Act 1 on Steam, blah blah.
00:37:35 <int-e> "Please note that the DRM-free builds as well as Act 2 will be made available on your download page upon completion.", I intended to wait until then.
00:41:27 <shachaf> Act 1 seems fine on its own
00:45:30 <int-e> I suppose. My excuses are, in no particular order: Steam is a bit of a hassle for me, I have other things to do, and enough distractions as is.
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00:46:29 <int-e> For example, I'm reading "The Science of Discworld" which I learned is really about science, unlike many other "The Science of ..." books.
00:47:01 <Bike> the philosophy of the science of discworld for the soul
00:48:38 <int-e> (There are chapters that describe events at Unseen University - they're running a crazy experiment where they created a strange universe that runs on rules and bloodymindedness rather than narrative. There are no star turtles, and everything tends to be spherical. It's really odd.)
00:49:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> did someone do that in /msg <-- HackEgo is weird about symbolic links. just be happy they work at all.
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00:51:29 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
00:51:38 <shachaf> Taneb: invent more things!
00:54:31 <oerjan> also possibly `? should strip articles since `learn does so
00:54:50 <shachaf> speaking of articles, what happened with that wsj thing
00:55:34 <Taneb> Now is time for sleeping, not inventing
00:55:52 <Taneb> Also, if you look at my reddit history, you'll see that I have invented weetoflakes
01:00:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/and Go/Go, and weetoflakes/' wisdom/tanebvention
01:01:29 <oerjan> `learn Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented, we think they may be edible.
01:02:20 <Taneb> oerjan, they taste sort of purple
01:02:40 <oerjan> `learn Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented, they taste sort of purple.
01:03:23 <oerjan> `learn Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
01:04:04 <shachaf> Taneb: you should invent Neatoflakes
01:04:48 <Taneb> shachaf, maybe in the morning
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01:09:16 <int-e> oh sleep. good idea. good night.
01:15:55 <Sgeo> I have no idea whether I'm lactose-intolerant
01:16:05 <Sgeo> Is it something that can just... go away, come back, go away, etc.?
01:17:42 <Bike> i don't think you randomly start and stop lactase production
01:19:56 <kmc> i'm no doctor but probably there are a lot of factors that make the symptoms more or less severe and maybe that's what you're observing?
01:20:05 <kmc> you could try taking lactase pills and see if that changes things
01:20:29 <ais523> I don't think asking #esoteric for medical advice is a good idea
01:20:48 <kmc> that's never stopped Sgeo in the past
01:20:50 <ais523> except that you probably shouldn't inject your girlfriend with benzene
01:24:04 <ais523> I think we all agreed on that one, or well most of us, at least
01:24:48 <Sgeo> Inside joke. I think Phantom_Hoover was annoyed at a girl I was interested in
01:25:42 <kmc> #esoteric love triangle??
01:26:12 <kmc> almost the same
01:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, could you not ask your father who is a doctor about your medical worries
01:26:54 <Sgeo> I'm trying to not depend on him so much. Although I have other more urgen worries that I haven't dealt with yet, maybe I should ask him about that soon
01:27:10 <Sgeo> Considering I still haven't gone to a doctor about those yet
01:27:54 <shachaf> kmc: triangles are p. boring for this channel
01:27:59 <shachaf> can we have directed hypergraphs or something
01:28:14 <ais523> what's the difference between a hypergraph and a regular graph?
01:28:35 <shachaf> An edge can have more than two vertices.
01:28:45 <shachaf> (Or fewer than two, I suppose?)
01:30:27 <shachaf> I don't quite know what a directed hypergraph would be. Maybe an edge would be a sequence of vertices, but maybe that's not quite right.
01:33:40 <shachaf> maybe that would work with a preörder
01:39:13 <Sgeo> Ok, was reading a page about magic, it started talking about spaying and neutering your pets...
01:39:31 <Sgeo> I think the author was being sarcastic, but at first I thought some spammer somehow broke the page
01:39:43 <Sgeo> http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/6699_18000_Words_The_100_Worst_Magic_Cards_of_All_Time_201.html
01:41:10 <ais523> wow that's a long time ago
01:41:26 <ais523> they've had new opportunities to make awful cards since
01:43:56 <Sgeo> "Ironically this card has become like a quasi collectors item because of its notoriety. A card that has such a bad reputation is paradoxically pretty cool." (from Gatherer comments on Wood Elemental)
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01:44:52 <ais523> Wood Elemental was the lowest-rated card for a while, IIRC
01:45:50 <Sgeo> Wonder if a Cube could be made with sucky cards (A Cube is just a format where the maker defines what cards are used, right?)
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01:47:32 <ais523> also, Pale Moon isn't anywhere near as bad as that article claims
01:47:51 <ais523> it's bad, but if you play it during the opponent's upkeep in Legacy, it's basically like you played Silence except for one more mana, against many decks
01:48:03 <ais523> compared to something like Sorrow's Path…
01:48:12 <ais523> Sgeo: the format exists, it's called "Gatherer Terrible"
01:48:24 <ais523> only cards allowed are those rated at less than one star on Gatherer
01:48:46 <ais523> also, a Cube is a /draft/ format where the maker selects which cards are drafted from
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02:05:38 <zzo38> I suppose you could also make a random Cube draft, possibly with the fixed proportion of common, uncommon, rare cards.
02:49:14 <shachaf> Hmm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_set#Necessary_and_sufficient_conditions_for_finiteness is interesting.
02:49:23 <shachaf> Without the axiom of choice, "P(P(S)) is Dedekind-finite" iff "S is finite", where "S is finite iff S is Dedekind-finite" requires the axiom of choice.
02:49:26 <shachaf> That looks a lot like an intuitionism thing.
02:54:53 <Gracenotes> whoops. http://paloalto.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/caltrain-hits-two-pedestrians-in-silicon-valley
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03:08:02 <Sgeo> I wonder if any kids were actually read that Homestar Runner book as a kid
03:20:03 <zzo38> I can think of a variant of SSA format, where there are no phi functions; instead, each branch has to forward any registers that the destination block needs (it might not do anything with them other than forward them again). What is this called?
03:22:11 <zzo38> Another variant of SSA format is the one used in JackCC, which also has no phi functions and instead has a "SAME instruction", which instructs the register allocator to place the two live ranges into the same physical register.
03:47:37 <ais523> oerjan: : is a regex metacharacter in vim?
03:48:56 <oerjan> ais523: probably not, i just put anything in [] that i'm not sure of :P
03:49:49 <oerjan> since there's no simple rule such as for perl
03:53:11 <kmc> what's the perl rule
03:53:57 <oerjan> everything alphabetic quotes itself, everything _non_-alphabetic quotes itself when escaped with \
03:54:02 <ais523> kmc: letters and numbers match literally without a backslash, all other characters match literally with one
03:54:33 <ais523> some characters match literally both ways, but if you follow that rule you'll never go wrong
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04:54:58 <oklopol> hmm, should i referee the P != NP paper...
04:55:24 <oklopol> there's one submitted in a conference i'm refereeing for
04:55:30 <ais523> and you were chosen as a referee?
04:55:30 <oklopol> there are a million of them
04:55:48 <ais523> it might be fun spotting the error
04:55:53 <oklopol> there's a huge list of papers and i can tell them what i want to read
04:56:18 <oklopol> or rather, my supervisor can
04:56:24 <ais523> the usual way to show P≠NP proofs incorrect is that they have a tendency to prove that 2SAT is not in P
04:56:54 <oklopol> my impression is that they usually show... what?
04:57:42 <oklopol> this is another common way:
04:57:44 <oklopol> Abstract. This paper demonstrates that P NP. The way was to generalize the
04:57:44 <oklopol> traditional definitions of the classes P and NP, to construct an artificial problem (a
04:57:44 <oklopol> generalization to SAT: The XG-SAT, much more difficult than the former) and then
04:57:59 <oklopol> okay so the result might actually be correct
04:58:10 <ais523> just not what it claims to be/
04:58:11 <oklopol> but it has nothing to do with P vs NP
04:58:44 <oklopol> hmm, i probably shouldn't paste these on a publicly logged channel.
04:59:22 <kmc> #esoteric is the preëminent preprint service for CS papers
05:00:00 <Sgeo> Kind of surprised that GitHub correctly records dates from before it existed
05:00:06 <Sgeo> Did _GIT_ even exist 14 years ago?
05:00:07 <Sgeo> https://github.com/mozart/mozart/commits/master/doc/macro/macro.sgml
05:00:21 <elliott> that was imported from another vcs.
05:00:24 <oklopol> next paper: halting problem has not been proved uncomputable
05:00:31 <kmc> Sgeo: no, but why would they go out of their way to block dates from before Git existed?
05:00:43 <ais523> Sgeo: we have Hack 1.0 in the NetHack 4 repo, as the initial commit, with its correct date of December 17 1984
05:00:51 <oklopol> this is worse than reading arxiv listings
05:00:53 <elliott> https://github.com/mozart/mozart/commit/50040db4714d38d30630a7a67836ec19da34e4d0 it's from svn. svn also postdates 1999, so it's probably from cvs or something originally
05:00:54 <kmc> I would guess they're stored as UNIX timestamps and can go back to 1970
05:01:01 <kmc> or else they're stored as email date headers because Git
05:01:16 <Sgeo> I may have been thinking in terms of git only recording dates as things are committed, rather than using timestamps
05:01:18 <elliott> this is some really SGMLy SGML
05:01:33 <elliott> <entry/<code/sequenceToList//
05:01:34 <ais523> Sgeo: the commit date and author date are different
05:01:52 <kmc> and you can modify both of them if you're willing to drop down to lower level Git tools
05:02:04 <kmc> git commit objects are not a very complicated format
05:02:28 <Sgeo> Is there a render of this SGML page somewhere?
05:02:41 <Sgeo> I don't think I saw it in the Mozart docs
05:02:42 <ais523> Sgeo: it doesn't necessarily render without a stylesheet
05:02:57 <Sgeo> I assume there's a stylesheet somewhere
05:02:58 <ais523> kmc: you can modify them even with high-level tools, IIRC
05:03:25 <ais523> I know I've used git commit --author= when committing stuff on other people's computer
05:03:38 <ais523> elliott: oh, I figured out a problem for the scapegoat naming clash
05:03:57 <ais523> we can't use "sg init", etc., because that's ambiguous
05:04:01 <ais523> but we can use "sg-init"
05:04:07 <kmc> ais523: I don't know if commit --amend can change the commit timestamp, though
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05:04:16 <zzo38> I want to know if you know anything about forwarding SSA format.
05:04:25 <ais523> kmc: it changes the commit timestamp to the current time and leaves the author timestamp alone
05:05:28 <Sgeo> Is AliceML supposed to be a modern version of Mozart/Oz?
05:05:36 <oklopol> ...okay the same guy also submitted a paper that proves there exist infinitely many sets smaller than aleph-0
05:05:40 <ais523> wow, I just accidentally got a 0 on the BF derivative game
05:05:44 <Sgeo> I really want to like Mozart/Oz but despite the new website, it seems dead
05:05:55 <ais523> probably because I wasn't actively intending to play it, just absent-mindedly hitting random
05:06:05 <ais523> and hit Underload really quickly
05:06:11 <oklopol> my guess is he redefines cardinality so that the even numbers are a smaller set than the set of natural numbers or something
05:06:28 <zzo38> ais523: What is a "BF derivative game"?
05:06:58 <Sgeo> oklopol: err... am I misreading, or are 0, 1, 2, 3, etc., plus other finite sets, all smaller than aleph-0?
05:07:06 <ais523> zzo38: you keep visiting Special:Random on Esolang, you score 1 point every time you reach a page about a BF derivative, you stop when you reach a language you created, lower scores are better
05:07:07 <Sgeo> So their claim makes perfect sense but is trivial?
05:07:39 <ais523> err, isn't aleph-0 the smallest infinity by definition?
05:07:47 <oklopol> okay infinitely many countably infinite sets, he says.
05:07:58 <oklopol> ais523: i think that's beth-0?
05:08:24 <zzo38> ais523: If it is a BF derivative that you created too, does it count as 1 point and stop at the same time?
05:08:54 <Sgeo> Good people don't make BF derivatives. I am not a good person.
05:09:03 <oerjan> oklopol: beth-0 is defined to be = aleph-0
05:09:26 <oklopol> oerjan: not in a world where they are not the same though, i would imagine
05:09:36 <oklopol> the context is that aleph-0 turned out not to be the smallest
05:09:37 <Sgeo> (Note: I do not seriously hold that good people don't make BF derivatives)
05:09:38 <oerjan> oklopol: they are always the same.
05:09:45 <ais523> zzo38: we've debated that
05:09:56 <oerjan> it's aleph-1 and beth-1 that are the continuum hypothesis.
05:09:57 <ais523> we didn't come to a particular decision, but that' reasonable
05:10:04 <ais523> Sgeo: I make good BF derivatives!
05:10:10 <oklopol> oerjan: but say that theorem is false, and there exist countable sets smaller than that of natural numbers
05:10:15 <ais523> I was intending to make a really stupid one as a protest, though
05:10:27 <oklopol> wouldn't you define beth-0 as the smallest infinite set, then
05:10:52 <ais523> oerjan: one of the submitters to oklopol's conference claims to have proved that there are infinities smaller than aleph-0
05:10:56 <oklopol> isn't the idea that beth's are defined like that, and aleph's are where the "natural" sets fit in the hierarchy
05:11:32 <oerjan> ais523: aleph-0 is the smallest _well-orderable_ infinity by definition. without AoC there may be some that are not comparable to it.
05:11:53 <ais523> oerjan: huh, AoC is needed for infinities to be comparable? I guess that makes sense
05:12:15 <Sgeo> ais523: what happened to it?
05:12:38 <ais523> Sgeo: I mentioned it on IRC then didn't put it on the wiki
05:12:51 <ais523> it's called Brainfuck, with a capital B, also all the instructions are identical to brainfuck
05:13:40 <oklopol> oerjan: i still think that in a world where it turns out that the natural numbers are _not_ the smallest well-orderable infinite set, aleph-0 should be the natural numbers
05:14:00 <oerjan> ais523: AoC is actually _equivalent_ to all infinities being comparable.
05:14:15 <ais523> oerjan: that's less obvious but still believable
05:14:50 <oerjan> because you can always find an ordinal so big that it must either be larger than your set or incomparable to it.
05:15:07 <oklopol> like, maybe take the actual recursive definition of natural numbers and just say it's their cardinality
05:15:40 <oklopol> i mean, why do you define the first level as the smallest possible, and then the next ones by exponentiation? isn't that how you go up in the aleph hierarchy
05:15:44 <Sgeo> How would it get put on the wiki? Which I guess is the poinnt
05:15:54 <oerjan> oklopol: you _don't_ need AoC to prove there are no infinite sets smaller than the natural numbers btw, you cannot get better than incomparable.
05:16:20 <oklopol> and can you prove that to me?
05:17:00 <oklopol> or are we in a situation where you have a theorem from set theory you can't prove, and I HAVE A THEOREM THAT WAS RECENTLY SUBMITTED TO A CONFERENCE OF PRESTIGE
05:17:01 <oerjan> sure. if a set is smaller than the natural numbers, there is an injection from it to the natural numbers. do the obvious inductive definition to get a bijection.
05:17:42 <ais523> Sgeo: [[Brainfuck (capital B)]]
05:17:46 <elliott> ais523: actually, that is on the wiki
05:17:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
05:18:19 <ais523> no that's the original BF
05:18:26 <elliott> it just has capitalisation errors
05:18:30 <oklopol> oerjan: did you need some other axiom though?
05:19:09 <oerjan> <oklopol> i mean, why do you define the first level as the smallest possible, and then the next ones by exponentiation? isn't that how you go up in the aleph hierarchy <-- no, that's how you go up in beth
05:19:35 <oklopol> can you prove there is no axiomatization of set theory where there are infinities below natural numbers which are comparable to it?
05:19:46 <oklopol> so i just mixed up the two
05:20:17 <zzo38> Forwarding SSA format is at least to look like the variant that could easily be converted into a Haskell do-block.
05:20:18 <oerjan> oklopol: of course not, anyone can make up their own crazy axioms. your guy maybe did.
05:20:30 <oklopol> (i cannot be blamed, for they are the same where i grew up: a subshift is either finite, beth-0 or beth-1)
05:20:56 <oerjan> aleph-1 is not beth-1 unless CH
05:21:06 <oklopol> oerjan: so then my claim is that beth-0 should be the cardinality of the natural numbers
05:21:16 <oerjan> also GHC is that aleph-alpha = beth-alpha for all ordinals alpha
05:21:28 <ais523> GHC is a Haskell compiler
05:21:48 * Sgeo wonders if he should try Crawl again
05:22:29 <oerjan> oklopol: beth-0 is defined as aleph-0, because you have to choose a starting point before you start going up.
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05:24:05 <oklopol> oerjan: but i mean the feeling i have is that the smallest infinite set is natural numbers, the next is 2^\N, etc., and beth gives you these cardinalities no matter what your axioms are
05:24:13 <oklopol> and aleph is the actual hierarchy of cardinalities
05:24:54 <oklopol> but i guess if beth-0 = aleph-0 in all sensible contexts...
05:25:00 <oerjan> assuming AoC, for the latter
05:25:15 <oerjan> (that aleph is all cardinalities)
05:25:35 <oklopol> does aleph give you all the well-orderable?
05:26:15 <oklopol> so the well-orderable ones are themselves a well-orderable... err, class, even without AoC
05:27:10 <ais523> I guess infinities form a category, too, with injections as morphisms
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05:28:27 <oerjan> ais523: any functions can be morphisms, really. this is the skeleton category of Set.
05:28:40 <oerjan> (ignoring the finite ones)
05:29:05 <ais523> I was thinking injections to make it easier to tell if they're well-ordered or not
05:29:19 <oerjan> although you probably need some AoC to actually construct it
05:29:31 <ais523> hmm… a recurring issue for me in category theory: there tend to be way too many options for what the morphisms are
05:29:55 <oerjan> ais523: well you would need the injections to be monotonic to witness well-ordering.
05:30:24 <oerjan> ais523: right, e.g. Rel has the same objects as Set, but different morphisms.
05:31:34 <oerjan> i'm not sufficiently into CT to know the notation for other examples.
05:32:01 <oklopol> elliott: that makes no sense. the empty set is an element of it, but also a subset?? this sounds like the work of academic ignoramuses (who are probably jews)
05:32:15 <oklopol> altohugh perhaps you will not get that
05:33:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i saw that quote yesterday, but i'm not sure where.
05:33:27 <oerjan> elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_of_relations
05:35:53 <oklopol> But what does { {{}} } mean? Wow!,
05:35:53 <oklopol> it seems that the number 1 must change back into an element when it
05:35:53 <oklopol> was first defined as a set ! No consistent method of comparison! No
05:35:53 <oklopol> consistent definition of the underlying mathematical objects! All you have
05:35:53 <oklopol> is sheer confusion. But this is not at all surprising considering that the
05:35:54 <oklopol> father of set theory was a bipolar Jew.
05:36:26 <oklopol> perhaps the best punchline in crackpot history
05:36:29 <oerjan> apparently there's a wikipedia bot BracketBot that thinks my edit to Malbolge may be a syntax error.
05:38:13 <oerjan> just point the poor guy at HoTT, should solve all his issues.
05:41:00 <oklopol> he goes on to define numbers by defining UNIT = magnitude (X) : magnitude (X) and saying the difference between two magnitudes is the number (?) of UNITs between them
05:41:44 <Sgeo> What article is this?
05:42:02 <ais523> Sgeo: an article that oklopol has been potentially asked to accept/reject for a conference
05:42:07 <ais523> "reject" seems likely, really
05:42:15 <oklopol> this latter one is from earlier
05:42:25 <oklopol> i don't have access to the papers before i accept to review them
05:42:44 <oklopol> this is something someone pasted on the channel
05:43:14 <oklopol> Abstract. In this paper we give empirical estimations of the halting probability for the
05:43:14 <oklopol> well-known esoteric programming language BF and some of its variations. We
05:43:14 <oklopol> describe an explicit formula for counting BF programs of a given length which is also
05:43:14 <oklopol> used to efficiently generate random programs. ...
05:43:24 <oklopol> again, i probably shouldn't paste these here
05:43:40 <ais523> you need to review that one
05:43:54 <ais523> you don't necessarily need to accept it, it depends on whether it's any good
05:44:01 <ais523> but you're probably in the best position to decie
05:44:28 <ais523> also, is that paper trying to estimate an uncomputable number? I think it is
05:45:15 <Bike> "probably about seven"
05:47:01 <oklopol> i wonder why they wrote BF instead of brainfuck??
05:47:12 <ais523> because brainfuck contains "fuck"
05:47:19 <quintopia> i reviewed a paper once. they didn't let me do it again
05:48:07 <ais523> it's unfortunate that there's an expletive in the name of such a fundamental language, because it make people unwilling to discussi t
05:49:11 <quintopia> ais523: do you know of a prebuilt data-structure that maintains compressed arrays? for instance, atvl, run-length encoding?
05:49:21 <Bike> could always wuss out and use p''
05:50:02 <ais523> quintopia: no, although it'd probably be possible to do something with RLE
05:50:20 <ais523> actually, some sort of binary tree with RLE would work
05:50:28 <ais523> or just linked list with RLE
05:50:46 <quintopia> linked RLE seems the most straightforward to implement
05:52:49 <quintopia> "when this element is changed, check to see if it matches the value of either of its neighbors, and roll them together if so" "when this element in the middle of a run is changed, split the run into two runs with the changed element between"
05:53:15 <quintopia> too bad it can't compress repeating patterns on the fly too
05:54:24 <oklopol> quintopia: what topic was the paper on?
05:54:43 <oklopol> i was only given crappy papers my first year
05:54:59 <oklopol> now i get good papers _and_ crappy ones (because most papers are crappy)
05:56:41 <quintopia> oklopol: some learning theory thing. i forget.
06:02:41 <oklopol> the kind of stuff where you are given info of which words belong to a language L, and you need to keep a guess of the language L, eventually converging to the right one?
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06:35:55 <Sgeo> "However, with devotion, a 1 ManaGreen ManaGreen Mana casting cost is often a benefit rather than a drawback compared to a card that costs 2 ManaGreen Mana. In a world of devotion, we have to balance the casting costs on cards differently. "
06:36:14 <Sgeo> So, since older cards weren't balanced with that as a consideration....
06:36:47 <zzo38> Why don't you write {1GG} and {2G} instead?
06:37:32 <zzo38> Of course depending on the cards, various things can be benefits or drawbacks depending on the situation, or perhaps both.
06:38:02 <shachaf> depending on the ham, we have ham and eggs, depending on the eggs, or perhaps both.
06:39:39 <kmc> spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam
06:40:14 <coppro> so normally when we do parsing, we define lookahead by how many *tokens* the parser has to look ahead, not characters
06:40:16 <zzo38> kmc: And you forgot eggs
06:40:23 <Sgeo> zzo38: because I copy/pasted from a website, which has those symbols in the manner I pasted
06:40:28 <ais523> Sgeo: Monogreen Devotion's seeing some play in Modern
06:40:42 <coppro> but a single token is potentially unbounded in length
06:40:46 <ais523> but Devotion's much more popular in Standard because most of the devotion cards are legal there and there's less competition
06:41:07 <coppro> do we get any interesting changes in characteristics if we allow the lexer to look ahead and change a token based on a future token?
06:41:09 <ais523> also, apparently Return to Ravnica wasn't balanced with devotion in mind, that's why that card costing {U/B}{U/B}{U/B} is seeing so much play
06:41:11 <Bike> mondegreen devotion
06:41:20 <coppro> e.g. "identifier-followed-by-identifier"
06:41:29 <coppro> ais523: [citation] on that?
06:41:33 <ais523> coppro: perhaps, because C-INTERCAL does that
06:41:44 <ais523> coppro: Mark Rosewater mentioned it somewhere
06:41:46 <ais523> but I'm not sure where
06:44:26 <Sgeo> " One of my favorite things about Erebos is that he turns off the lifelink from an opposing Whip of Erebos. Erebos doesn't like his weapons being used against him."
06:45:00 <Sgeo> Was about to ask if that's incorrect, but somehow misremembered lifelink. Was thinking that preventing you from gaining life doesn't stop me from losing it
06:49:50 <ais523> coppro: I just spent like 7 or 8 minutes trying to find the citation, and failed
06:57:45 <Sgeo> "Three, Evermind no longer turns the spells it's spliced onto blue. Really, how weird was that?"
07:00:56 <Sgeo> Pretty http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=282542&type=card
07:03:06 <ais523> <sarcasm>I thought the point of Evermind was to make spells blue, but that effect's pretty weak so they made it cantrip</sarcasm>
07:08:49 <Sgeo> I thought Super Haste was a joke. But Pact of Negation does a similar time travel thing
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08:04:37 <Sgeo> "its the onion g theres no such thing as drones its a joke"
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09:30:51 <b_jonas> haven't they changed that now though? as in, Evermind no longer makes your spells blue
09:30:55 <b_jonas> you have a use a real Lace for that
09:31:31 <b_jonas> you could say they broke Evermind
10:25:49 <zzo38> A while ago, I had some dream where in this hotel, the floors were labeled not by numbers but by colors (and the lights in the elevator also then just had different colors), and the floor a room was on was whatever color the pokemon having the number of the room number had.
10:34:45 <zzo38> Have you ever dreamt about chess variants?
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11:05:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: could you change the color of rooms corresponding to nonexistent glitch pokemons by performing operations that changed the memory they accidentally pointed to?
11:06:02 <b_jonas> because then residing in such a room could be really annoying
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11:12:08 <b_jonas> it's not the color of the room, but which floor it is on?
11:12:16 <b_jonas> that would be even more strange to just change by some memory write
11:13:39 <zzo38> Yes, the color that the floor it is on is labeled. And it isn't using the GameBoy game, so there is no memory write.
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11:50:40 <zzo38> http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=nwolff-cvgameroom-2011-95-172&orientation=fixed&submit=Print The white queen has just moved from e5 to e2; was that the best move or would there have been a better one? Moving to e1 removes the immediate threat to the queen, but maybe he wants to protect the king and this might not help to do so.
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13:28:12 <boily> good stupid-bus-network-it's-friggin'--22-outside-whyyyyy morning!
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13:30:56 <metasepia> CYUL 211300Z 31007KT 30SM FEW015 FEW210 M23/M28 A3016 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR SLP218
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13:32:25 <boily> Taneb: could you brief me on what are weetoflakes?
13:33:22 <Taneb> boily, a mixture of Weetos and Cornflakes, to be served with milk
13:35:02 <metasepia> Weetos is a brand of chocolate-flavoured breakfast cereal produced by Weetabix Food Company.
13:35:49 <boily> oh, chocolate Cheerios.
13:36:57 <Taneb> To be authentic weetoflakes, it has to be Weetos and Tesco-brand Corn flakes
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13:38:48 <boily> corn flakes are Kellogg's, you ceretic.
13:39:16 <Taneb> No, cornflakes are Kellogg's
13:39:20 <Taneb> corn flakes are generic
13:40:04 <boily> my mistake. but I still like the term “ceretic” :D
13:40:24 <Taneb> I cannot account for the purpleness of any other similar combination
13:40:51 <boily> I think the American version would have High Fructose Magenta Syrup instead.
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14:49:12 <metasepia> EFHK 211420Z VRB02KT 9999 BKN019 M12/M14 Q1029 NOSIG
14:49:31 <fizzie> There's something wrong with the heating here at work.
14:50:06 <fizzie> It's +16 inside, which is decidedly on the chilly side.
15:13:52 <metasepia> ESSA 211450Z 03010KT 9999 BKN023 M04/M07 Q1027 R01L/710156 R08/710139 R01R/710167 NOSIG
15:14:15 <FireFly> temperature's rising again, it seems
15:19:01 <metasepia> CYUL 211500Z 34003KT 30SM FEW020 BKN240 M22/M28 A3017 RMK CF1CI6 CF TR SLP221
15:19:07 <boily> nope. still frigid here.
15:21:03 * coppro is also annoyed at the temperature, mind
15:21:29 <coppro> asthmatic with a cold does not approve of -20 degree weather
15:25:36 <boily> there are no Fahrenheits in METARs strangely. well, most of the time.
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15:54:43 <boily> helooodl. Phellontom_Hoover. FreeFello.
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16:12:22 <quintopia> boily: you'd think metar would use Rankin, what with its aviation popularity
16:16:14 <boily> quintopia: documentation describing the METAR specs is at its best arcane, otherwise inexistant and/or poorly formatted. it's not so much a standard as a half-hacked poorly structured subjective format.
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16:16:29 <boily> Rankine is too straightforward for METARs.
16:17:06 <boily> (also, Times New Roman with bold and underline and misaligned hand-drawn brackets... *blertchgle*)
16:18:15 <quintopia> boily you have to read this game idea
16:19:16 <quintopia> https://plus.google.com/118365124365067663191/posts/GTMGW7rhf3X
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16:22:42 <Bike> but can te cleric heal wounds... of the heart
16:22:50 <boily> can you roll a dice while reattaching limbs? like, he has multiple limbs chopped off, and if you fail your roll, a leg can get stuck to a shoulder socket?
16:23:39 <boily> Bike: of course! want to pimp out your aorta and chrome it? add upholstery to your ventricles? go ahead!
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16:24:39 <Bike> yes. upholstered ventricles is a thing i want
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16:31:45 <quintopia> boily: more likely a failed limb reattachment roll results on the limb not getting reattached. and probably you'd just assume each encounter occurs after a full 8 hours of rest, which means limbs should automatically reattach between encounters
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17:08:30 <zzo38> Someone else has said my "register forwarding format" is resembling SSA where every block ends with a tail call; yes I can see that looks to be the case.
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17:11:18 <zzo38> It looks a few people have dreamt of chess variant games: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=057f01eaab9e2f4b Are you ever doing so?
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17:15:00 <zzo38> quintopia: What is Milo's Wizard Chess?
17:16:25 <quintopia> zzo38: chess played according to D&D rules. bishops are clerics, rooks are actual fortified positions, pawns are archers, queen is the tank, etc.
17:21:29 <zzo38> Is it still the goal to be the first to destroy the opposing king?
17:22:45 <zzo38> Does such a game occur in a dream?
17:25:49 <int-e_> PAH. https://www.archlinux.org/todo/remove-static-libraries/
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17:35:25 <int-e> But at least that was an easy problem to solve.
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17:45:42 <kmc> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/alpanumeric_decrement
17:48:03 <boily> int-e: why? where is the gain by removing static libs?
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17:49:07 <int-e> boily: I don't know. Well, apparently people think that people don't use them anymore, and want to save some diskspace and computation on the build bots.
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18:15:12 <pikhq> Gregor: You alright?
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18:17:35 <kmc> <boily> … it's not so much a standard as a half-hacked poorly structured subjective format ← I just love knowing things like this about aviation
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18:20:00 <kmc> hi FreeFull
18:20:08 <kmc> what's the story with your "sausage-lover" cloak?
18:22:10 <shachaf> i'm told i used to love nakki, back before i was vegetarian
18:22:44 <metasepia> In Finnish mythology, a Nkki is a Neck, a shapeshifting water spirit who usually appears in human form, that resides in murky pools, wells, docks, piers and under bridges that cross rivers.
18:30:34 <boily> fizzie: are you one of those people?
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18:52:33 <kmc> is that where you go if you're bad even by the standards of regular hell?
18:53:26 <Bike> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=582#comic
19:10:03 <int-e> somehow I like 853 best so far.
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21:01:49 <shachaf> did you read _My Family and Other Animals_
21:14:14 <FreeFull> kmc: I wanted a different cloak, requested sausage-lover, got it
21:14:32 <kmc> sausage is pretty good
21:14:37 <kmc> i was going to eat sausage for lunch today but then i forgot
21:14:39 <FreeFull> Before that, my cloak was something to do with Christel, don't remember what
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21:46:43 <Gregor> pikhq: My building is on the opposite end of campus.
21:47:07 <Gregor> Apparently it was targeted. A TA shot by (presumably) a disgruntled student.
21:47:37 <Gregor> Boy I love living in a country where it's nearly trivial for anyone to gain access to devices which serve no purpose but to murder.
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22:05:56 <kmc> Gregor: glad you're okay
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22:48:32 <Bike> something to meditate on: "Canadian football is a form of gridiron football played in Canada in which two teams of 12 players each compete for territorial control of a field of play 110 yards (101 m) long and 65 yards (59 m) wide[1] attempting to advance a pointed prolate spheroid ball into the opposing team's scoring area."
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22:50:08 <pikhq> Until it got to the ball, that was mostly sensible.
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22:50:25 <Bike> i'll advance your pointed prolate, baby
22:51:34 <kmc> nerrrrrrds
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23:20:51 <kmc> https://twitter.com/gazoombo/status/425767066910470144/photo/1
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00:08:46 <Bike> https://twitter.com/UkipWeather
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01:04:05 <Sgeo> Why is Oz so dead?
01:04:35 <Sgeo> Although admittedly, it does the whole use-functions-for-making-new-constructs thing but doesn't provide syntactic sugar for doing so
01:04:47 <Sgeo> Not sure if that's really significant, but I can imagine it makes code look ugly sometimes
01:10:47 <Sgeo> class $ from Server Class
01:11:22 <Sgeo> That... it makes a lot of sense that you can put $ in that position, I guess
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01:18:55 <Sgeo> Lactose Intolerance is a digestive disorder that sounds like a silly joke until you have it. Then it's more like a cruel joke.&&(navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Trident') != -1||navigator.userAgent.indexO
01:19:15 <Sgeo> Lactose intolerance is cruel Javascript. Good to know.
01:19:36 <Sgeo> view-source:http://www.cracked.com/funny-8054-lactose-intolerance/
01:19:40 <Sgeo> How did this even happen?
01:21:53 <kmc> well the entire web as a platform is based on pasting strings together willy-nilly with no types
01:23:46 <Sgeo> This person claims that lactose-free milk tastes (or smells) terrible. This person is a horrible liar.
01:24:04 <Bike> cracked.com <-- you don't say
01:28:25 <Sgeo> "Is it possible to evaluate code (as string or syntax list) at runtime (like eval()) in Oz? It is a dynamically typed language, so it may be possible."
01:28:38 <Sgeo> Totally impossible for eval to exist in a statically typed language.
01:28:55 <Sgeo> (I guess their statement doesn't strictly speaking imply that0
01:30:08 <Bike> well eval is hard to type.
01:30:14 <Bike> impossible in HM at least, probably?
01:30:40 <kmc> you can do it for any single result type in HM, i'm sure
01:30:44 <kmc> String -> Maybe (Int -> Int)
01:31:19 <kmc> and if you bake something like Typeable into the language then you could write String -> Maybe t
01:31:29 <kmc> but in Haskell as it stands you do need type classes to express the idea behind Typeable, yeah
01:31:41 <kmc> it's kind of odd that "lactose intolerance" is described as a pathology, when lactase persistence is absent in other mammals, and is a very recent (10,000 years?) mutation in humans, and is almost absent in some ethnic groups
01:34:50 <kmc> i have some friends who were born without wisdom teeth. that's pretty cool
01:35:26 <kmc> stuff white people like: digesting lactose
01:38:56 <Bike> sounds like the world needs a better understanding of ~ethnomedicine~
01:39:50 <Bike> fact: putting "ethno-" in front of a field name is over 300% cooler than putting "computational"
01:39:58 <Bike> jury's out on computational ethnomusicology
01:40:29 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix my ethnomedicine
01:49:38 <zzo38> s/ethnomedicine/quantum computational ethnomedicationology/
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01:58:37 <kmc> did you know it's National Hug Day here in America
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02:10:10 <zzo38> What happens if a C header file is licensed by LGPL?
02:12:09 <kmc> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=41827
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02:41:36 <Sgeo> Is it accurate to say that Oz logic variables roughly correspond with Haskell LVars, in that Oz logic variables monotonically increase in information?
02:52:10 <Sgeo> There is a Brogue server now
02:53:05 <kmc> is that a rogue-like for bros
02:53:59 <Sgeo> It's a roguelike with a slightly annoying name
02:54:13 <Sgeo> But is intended to generally not need spoilers, I think
03:04:56 <Sgeo> It just takes one newLisp defender to remind me that the newLisp community is full of insane people
03:05:24 <Sgeo> "And yes, you don't like or use CL either, because CL has dynamic scoping. I think you are using Sublime or Vim, because Elisp has dynamic scoping."
03:05:26 <Bike> histrionic personality? hebephrenia? ultradian bipolarity?
03:06:40 <Sgeo> Then again, some of the anti-newLisp people are criticising fexprs, and this makes me sad
03:07:35 <Bike> to the psikushka with the lot
03:08:31 <Sgeo> "Unlike Common Lisp, newLISP and Scheme evaluate the operator part of an expression before applying the operator to its arguments."
03:08:40 <Sgeo> ^^ from the newLisp website
03:09:50 <Bike> that seems accurate? am i missing something?
03:09:52 <Sgeo> Oh, that's actually correct
03:09:56 <Sgeo> Bike: you missed my derping
03:10:23 <Sgeo> I was thinking they were thinking of #', but you need funcall
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03:11:49 <Sgeo> Wonder how difficult it would be to write a set of fexprs in newLisp to get back sane lexical scoping in a sane to use fashion
03:12:15 <Sgeo> iirc, newLisp has some lexical scoping features, just more unweidly to use, wider in scope than individual functions
03:15:38 <zzo38> Do some lists of computer software require that the software licenses are both FSF-approved and OSI-approved? Many seem to require only OSI-approval.
03:16:46 <Bike> office of strategic intelligence
03:19:37 <alandipert> Sgeo: where's that newLisp defense going down? i've been meaning to take a look at newlisp
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03:20:29 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1u9xp1/newlisp_in_a_browser_compiled_to_javascript_using/
03:20:54 <Sgeo> You know what would be hilarious? A Kernel implementation on top of newLisp
03:21:11 <Sgeo> Although providing a reasonable FFI might make it not be a conformant Kernel implementation anymore
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03:27:05 * oerjan spots our esteemed domain owner
03:28:16 <HackEgo> alandipert: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:28:37 <alandipert> oerjan: thx! i check in with the community once a decade :-)
03:29:25 <alandipert> is calamari, the bfbasic dude, around still?
03:29:43 <HackEgo> 2013-07-19 19:49:01: <calamari> and see how it works out.. might be fun
03:29:53 <oerjan> for some value of "still".
03:30:50 <oerjan> once a year is better than once a decade, i suspect.
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03:35:45 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> sounds delicious. <-- no, a näkki things _you_ sound delicious. hth.
03:37:33 <alandipert> i dunno if it's esoteric enough, but on another lisp note, i thought this might interest folks here: https://github.com/alandipert/gherkin
03:39:04 <Sgeo> "Rarely can one point to a language that's even more fucked up than early Perl or PHP, but today you can..."
03:41:25 <zzo38> If you want to play some roguelike game then perhaps look at "Savant's Maze" or "Savant's Maze - Family Edition" when I finished to write it; I did worka little bit more but not much. Currently it is unavailable.
03:41:44 <zzo38> Maybe Family Edition might not ever be written, though.
03:42:16 <Bike> how am i supposed to look at it
03:42:27 <zzo38> Patience, I suppose.
03:42:35 <zzo38> I don't know how else.
03:45:30 <oerjan> most annoying pronunciation guide http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gherkin
03:46:42 <zzo38> Unlike the other roguelike game this one you start on the basement and then you have to reach the top floor.
03:46:53 <zzo38> There is other differences from common things too
03:47:47 <quintopia> like if you try to eat things, you will drink them instead
03:48:01 <quintopia> and dipping things in fountains always makes them stone
03:48:13 <zzo38> No, but you can modify it to do that if you want to!
03:49:10 <zzo38> But there is lasers that stop you from going up the stairs, and invisible walls, and your swimming skill is temporarily decreased if you eat too much
03:51:48 <kmc> `paste bin/rainwords
03:51:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/rainwords
03:52:36 <kmc> for l in open("/dev/stdin").read() o_O
03:53:23 <zzo38> And if you step on a broken glass, then you might get injured, but you might be safe.
03:53:55 <zzo38> There is also fog that can block vision.
03:54:29 <zzo38> Potions are also different; you have to combine them if you want useful effects.
03:55:11 <kmc> Sgeo: why did they invent a dynamically scoped lisp in 1991 :<
03:57:27 <kmc> zzo38: what kind of effects
03:58:38 <zzo38> kmc: That part isn't done yet, so I don't quite know. But most of the other things I have described are implemented.
03:59:55 <zzo38> You start without any skills (not even literature and combat), except for the ones that you can't learn any other way; this is due to being cursed and you have to reach the top floor to get rid of it, get past all of the security guards, etc. (But you can still gain skills and stuff during the game like normal; the curse doesn't prevent that.)
04:00:04 <Sgeo> I can see some advantages of newLisp... as far as I can tell, anything can be redefined at the REPL, and if you redefine a 'macro' (fexpr), things that use it will have those changes immediately
04:00:35 <Sgeo> Also, the transparency thing means you can save an 'image' of it that's text, so modifyable in a text editor and not necessarily a special environment
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04:02:14 <Sgeo> > (define (foo) (context 'fooctx) (set 'q 1) (context 'MAIN))
04:02:14 <Sgeo> (lambda () (context 'fooctx) (set 'q 1) (context 'MAIN))
04:02:16 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `T.for' (imported from Data.Traversable)
04:02:30 <Sgeo> So, then I tried q in both contexts. q seems to be defined in 'MAIN but not 'fooctx
04:02:46 <Sgeo> Are contexts reader-level? I was hoping to switch contexts in the middle of executing a function
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04:06:21 <Sgeo> "setq and setf work alike in newLISP and set the contents of a symbol, list, array or string or of a list, array or string place reference."
04:06:27 <Sgeo> So, I can't define my own setf-able places?
04:08:28 <oerjan> <kmc> i have some friends who were born without wisdom teeth. that's pretty cool <-- i say it is quite rare to be born with wisdom teeth hth
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04:09:12 <Sgeo> I want to like newLisp. That aforementioned able to change anything at any time thing is just... really helpful for the way I think about programming
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04:11:38 <oerjan> "I like this language, it makes it _really_ easy to shoot yourself in the foot."
04:13:00 <kmc> oerjan: oh, fair point
04:13:08 <kmc> I guess I mean they never grew wisdom teeth
04:13:17 <kmc> i keep forgetting how teeth work
04:13:22 <kmc> because it's creepy and not relevant to my life
04:13:55 * oerjan has 3 and maybe a 4th stuck in the jaw
04:14:07 <kmc> I got mine removed at 18
04:14:41 <oerjan> i got 4 other teeth removed for orthodontics, so when my wisdom teeth arrived they had no trouble fitting i guess.
04:18:38 <oerjan> also my left upper front tooth is a zombie, it's been reattached after an accident, but has hung on for longer dead than it was alive.
04:19:55 <kmc> yeah I got loads of teeth removed as a kid
04:19:59 <kmc> teeth comin' out every which way
04:20:05 <kmc> guess they were the temporary teeth cause I still have plenty
04:20:32 <oerjan> those are supposed to fall off by themselves, usually.
04:20:45 <kmc> yeah i don't remember the deal
04:20:55 <oerjan> although i guess it is common to speed up the process a _little_.
04:22:05 <Sgeo> Then again, people hate Tcl too
04:22:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes, that's why they have all the teeth trouble.
04:30:10 <Sgeo> Having a link to http://newlisponrockets.com/rundragonfly.com really inspires confidence in the newlisp on rockets web framework
04:31:00 <Sgeo> Seriously, what is with all those external links getting turned into nonsense internal ones?
04:31:07 <Sgeo> In general, not newlisponrockets
04:32:07 <polytone> It's what happens when you forget "http://".
04:33:05 <Sgeo> <a href="rundragonfly.com">Dragonfly</a>
04:33:30 <Bike> why is it on rockets? shouldn't it be like... what's transportation starting with n
04:33:37 <Bike> nega-standing-still
04:33:52 <Bike> probably some trademark issues there
04:34:18 <kmc> Scheme on Schienenzeppelin
04:35:23 <oerjan> scheme on skateboards, surely
04:36:21 <Sgeo> polytone: and I call myself a web dev :/
04:36:59 <Sgeo> Although, I generally don't programmatically produce a tags, so
04:37:29 <Sgeo> At least not server-side... what am I trying to make excuses for, exactly>
04:38:02 <polytone> Bike: Or a product placement opportunity!
04:38:30 <Bike> definitely what nissan needs from some nerd-ass programming language
04:38:38 <Sgeo> https://www.optimum.net/support/notification/#?type=cms-detailed&id=40879
04:38:51 <Sgeo> Is that a particularly ugly URL? It's kind of my fault
04:39:10 <kmc> seems legit
04:39:16 <Bike> it seems weird that you have get parameters in an anchor?
04:39:57 <polytone> I'd ordinarily be annoyed, but for some reason I'm feeling pretty chill about it.
04:47:47 <Sgeo> polytone: are you annoyed by AJAX, or the preponderance of that sort of URL that AJAX seems to bring about?
04:49:05 <polytone> We have history manipulation now, basically.
04:49:37 <Sgeo> Does IE8 support history manipulation?
04:51:46 <Bike> farther future
04:52:58 <Sgeo> WHY is curry a macro in newLisp?
04:53:19 <Sgeo> erm, hmm. fexpr, I guess
04:54:46 <oerjan> dangling dangling links with mangling
04:54:54 <Sgeo> (define (make-adder n)
04:54:54 <Sgeo> (expand (lambda (x) (+ x n)) 'n))
04:55:04 <Sgeo> oh god this looks like it has the potential to be really terrible
04:55:20 <Sgeo> if there are non-obvious references to n in expands argument
04:55:32 <Bike> does that make a closure?
04:55:35 <Sgeo> "newLISP uses either expand or letex to make n part of the lambda expression as a constant, or it uses curry:"
04:55:42 <Sgeo> http://www.newlisp.org/index.cgi?Closures
04:56:30 <Sgeo> "In the first syntax, one symbol in sym (or more in sym-2 through sym-n) is looked up in a simple or nested expression exp. They are then expanded to the current binding of the symbol and the expanded expression is returned. The original list remains unchanged."
04:56:36 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe expand is a fexpr?
04:56:40 <Sgeo> I would be ok with it then
04:56:51 <Bike> what's the deal with 1,3,5-cyclooctotriene Sgeo
04:57:00 <Sgeo> It's almost like a sucky quasiquote
04:57:24 <kmc> oh, is that faking lexical closure using a hacky quasiquote-like thing
04:57:35 <kmc> why is that better than lexical scope
04:57:48 * kmc sets fire to flames
04:59:05 <Sgeo> letex is a slightly easier to read hacky quasiquote-like thing
05:02:17 <Bike> oh, so (expand (lambda (x) (+ x n)) 'n) "macroexpands" to (lambda (x) (+ x 4)) if n is 4? that's kind of neat
05:02:29 <Bike> i mean i'd rather have that and lexical closures.
05:07:16 <Sgeo> Oh good newLisp doesn't require fexprs to be named
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05:41:35 <Sgeo> Just realized why Picolisp is hated much less than Newlisp despite also having dynamic scoping:
05:41:52 <Sgeo> Consistent naming conventions, functions begin with lowercase arguments begin with uppercase
05:42:13 <Sgeo> And there are also transient symbols, not sure how those figure into safety in the dynamic-scoping environment
05:42:30 <kmc> how do those work
05:43:57 <Sgeo> transient symbols? I think once the ... something or other is closed (when the current file is no longer read, or by calling ====), then you cannot lexically refer to the transient symbols you were just using
05:44:05 <Sgeo> "foo" (====) "foo"
05:44:10 <Sgeo> Two different symbols foo
05:45:15 <kmc> interesting
05:45:24 <kmc> reminds me just a little of C++ anonymous namespaces
05:45:50 <kmc> is the idea that you use these in macros to prevent capture? or what
05:46:02 <Sgeo> kmc: I...'m not sure
05:46:12 <Sgeo> I think they're used as argument names sometimes, at least
05:46:32 <Sgeo> oh god dammit newlisp
05:47:17 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/8656031
05:48:08 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe that behavior isn't as terrible as I'm thinking
05:48:37 <Sgeo> It's not like a lambda is going to include a variable reference to another lambda, all it should have are symbols
05:49:13 <kmc> what's going on here is that in a dynamic lisp there's no need to distinguish a function value from a lambda expression?
05:49:20 <kmc> i.e. the lambda special form evaluates to itself
05:49:56 <Sgeo> I was thinking though that the behavior shown would somehow be unsafe since you're expanding a symbol that isn't lexically obvious
05:50:18 <Sgeo> But it's only one layer of indirection, and I am starting to think a literal lambda should be safe
05:51:05 <Sgeo> (ANd yes, NewLisp lambdas evaluate to themselves... a special kind of list)
05:56:02 <Sgeo> People seem to think the thing I just said is one of the most horrible things about newLisp. I don't understand why.
05:56:56 <Bike> people like having a kind of objects as important as functions be distinct from other datatypes in some important way
05:57:04 <kmc> it seems natural when you have dynamic scope
05:57:14 <kmc> and if you're really commited to the Lisp Way
05:57:22 <kmc> but also, it breaks extensionality
05:57:32 <Sgeo> extensionality?
05:57:41 <kmc> i can write a function that distinguishes (lambda (x) x) from (lambda (y) y)
05:57:48 <kmc> but you can do that in some lexically scoped languages too
05:58:08 <kmc> C#, Python
05:58:16 <kmc> prolly Java
05:58:24 <Bike> are they actually guaranteed distinct?
05:58:41 <kmc> languages where functions are callable but they're also objects w/ methods and properties and shit, some of which let you inspect the guts
05:59:07 <kmc> Bike: don't know
06:03:42 <zzo38> kmc: JavaScript functions are objects too
06:05:52 <zzo38> And I think that kind of distinction is also possible in JavaScript
06:06:27 <kmc> you can convert a function to a string, if nothing else
06:07:46 <kmc> http://pastebin.ca/2572659
06:08:55 <kmc> oh I should have used ===, I have brought dishonor on my entire family
06:09:18 <kmc> Sgeo: thanks to you I now know of a language with a ==== operator, although it's not for equality
06:10:19 <Sgeo> http://software-lab.de/doc/ref_.html#====
06:10:28 <Sgeo> copumpkin: closes the transient index
06:10:37 <Sgeo> *clears the transient index
06:15:41 <Sgeo> "Note: All HTML code is removed (< and > translated to & lt ; and & gt ; respectively) to avoid
06:15:41 <Sgeo> cross-site scripting issues. URLs are transformed into clickable links. Some UBB code is also
06:15:41 <Sgeo> translated, for example bold, italic, underline, and code tags."
06:15:57 <Sgeo> The function to do that is in the "basic functions" section of the docs
06:16:04 <Sgeo> http://newlisponrockets.com/rockets-documentation.lsp
06:16:28 <kmc> you can write PHP in any language
06:16:59 <Sgeo> I guess I can check if Dragonfly was any better
06:30:41 <kmc> Zarqa and Zinor would be a good name for a band
06:30:58 <zzo38> Can you tell me now if you think music for "Attribute Zone" game is OK so far? Now I included the .NSF file; most NES/Famicom emulators should play it and so will some music playing programs; I believe the music program that comes standard with Ubuntu will play it.
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06:49:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
06:49:15 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!~stuntaneo@122.150.166.161.
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06:52:24 <oerjan> the ban list might soon do with some cleanup
06:53:17 <Bike> dont, stop me, nowwwww
06:54:06 * oerjan ties Bike's shoelaces together
06:55:58 * Bike falls to the side, moving kickstand ineffectively
06:57:57 <oerjan> it's your bloody fault for putting shoes on a bike in the first place.
06:59:20 * oerjan unties shoelaces then rings Bike's bell.
07:00:00 <oerjan> that's a funny bell sound
07:00:07 * oerjan toots Bike's horn instead
07:14:26 <Sgeo> totally http://www.prime-numbers.org/
07:14:57 <Sgeo> I shouldn't make fun, I guess
07:17:29 <oerjan> yes you should. htf can you download all primes up to 400 digits...
07:17:59 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know what the best base to take the log in in the prime number theorem to get best bound?
07:18:34 <Sgeo> oerjan: but I was more poking fun at the 'totally'
07:18:45 <Sgeo> Which is also in the detail information
07:20:14 <quintopia> Sgeo: totally was once a synonym for "in total"
07:20:22 <quintopia> oerjan: the natural base works best?
07:20:37 <oerjan> quintopia: that's the one used in the theorem...
07:20:37 <zzo38> quintopia: It is in a ZIP archive: http://zzo38computer.org/nes_program/attrzone.zip
07:20:50 <zzo38> (You should easily be able to tell it only to extract the files you want)
07:21:43 <oerjan> totally was totally a synonym for "in total"
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07:21:59 <zzo38> quintopia: I do have git installed on Cygwin, and have repo or cz account.
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07:25:23 <oerjan> the next question is, what did literally literally use to mean
07:31:09 <Jafet> Would you use what literally literally used to mean literally?
07:31:11 <shachaf> what did oerjan oerjan use to mean\
07:32:07 <Sgeo> I have got to be less casual about typing rm -rf /
07:32:12 <zzo38> Do you think this music is OK? Is other file OK?
07:32:15 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, remember Mr. Tur Tur?
07:32:28 <Jafet> (Is \ a typo of ¿?)
07:32:35 <shachaf> has anyone here read that book
07:32:41 <shachaf> mauke has but he's not here
07:34:15 <Jafet> (It's probably a typo of ؟.)
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07:35:07 <shachaf> are you sure it's ؟ and not ⸮
07:35:38 <Sgeo> "Having written a compiler is definitely one of those(if not the most important) thing that upgrades a programmer, bonus point if you can write a lexer/parser in a weekend like Walter."
07:35:52 <Sgeo> Technically I have written a compiler (Braintrust -> Haskell), does that count?
07:36:06 <Bike> you'll need thirty more skill points im' afraid
07:36:23 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> I have got to be less casual about typing rm -rf /
07:36:28 <HackEgo> 1161) <Sgeo> I have got to be less casual about typing rm -rf /
07:38:36 <HackEgo> [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
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07:38:50 <HackEgo> [U+061F ARABIC QUESTION MARK]
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07:39:38 <oerjan> wtf does the latter look like what the former should look like, if my font had shown it.
07:40:29 <Jafet> U+3F REVERSED ARABIC QUESTION MARK
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08:12:08 <lifthrasiir> U+003F ARC SEGMENT FROM PI TO FIVE PI OVER TWO WITH EXTRUDED LINE SEGMENT BELOW AND DOT BELOW
08:12:31 <Bike> how do you extrude line segments
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13:23:49 <metasepia> CYUL 221300Z 32004KT 15SM FEW010 M25/M28 A3011 RMK SF1 SF TR SLP202
13:24:43 <boily> it's an experience.
13:24:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 49m 2s ago: <boily> sounds delicious. <-- no, a näkki things _you_ sound delicious. hth.
13:24:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 48m 52s ago: *thinks
13:25:14 <boily> @tell oerjan maybe I'm a meta-näkki?
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13:51:58 <metasepia> LOWI 221320Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW025 07/01 Q1010 R08/29//70 NOSIG
13:52:41 <metasepia> EFHK 221320Z 36007KT 9999 FEW006 SCT025 M14/M17 Q1027 NOSIG
13:52:53 <boily> even Finland has clement weather...
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14:41:00 <kmc> https://github.com/fre5h/DoctrineEnumBundle/pull/12
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16:35:03 <fizzie> I don't know why, but today's M14 felt really cold.
16:35:16 <fizzie> It's not like it was especially windy or anything.
16:36:02 <boily> your M14 is humidly saturated.
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17:15:24 <benuphoenix> does https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/mycode2a.txt make any sense to you?
17:16:50 <kmc> it looks like a program expressed as a series of instructions for a virtual machine, or something like that
17:21:09 <benuphoenix> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/mycode.txt is a little saner
17:21:47 <benuphoenix> it's for a possible scripting language on top of C++
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18:08:51 <kmc> what makes it better than all of the existing scripting languages for C and C++?
18:14:28 <boily> I HAVE A NEW JOOOOOOOOOB!
18:14:39 <boily> (sorry for détourning the conversation.)
18:16:17 <zzo38> benuphoenix: That doesn't necessarily make it better or worse than others, but if it makes it useful to you then it is good to you at least.
18:17:05 <zzo38> Without other example, as well as how it would be used with C and C++ programming, it doesn't tell much.
18:17:49 <kmc> benuphoenix: did you want some language design feedback?
18:19:51 <zzo38> So far it looks OK to me though
18:20:26 <boily> quintopia: new employer, Java/OpenGL consultant, yes.
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18:39:05 <benuphoenix> kmc: i'll let you know if i go far enough to have a design
18:42:10 <kmc> it seems like quite a lot of code to do not very much
18:42:25 <zzo38> If the features of SQLite are very useful in your program, then you can use SQL as a scripting language in the C program too, and then can also be used to load extensions, store databases, etc, depending on the program it might be the useful way.
18:42:39 <kmc> why have a scripting language on top of C when it would be less code and more readable just to do the same thing in C?
18:43:14 <benuphoenix> because i need to load it into a c program
18:43:21 <zzo38> kmc: I think it is depending on the program; for some applications will be more useful to have an external scripting program
18:47:08 <kmc> benuphoenix: you can compile C code and then load it into a running C program
18:47:40 <kmc> several ways
18:48:03 <kmc> you can invoke the compiler as an external program, make it compile a dynamic library, and then load it with (on UNIX) dlopen()
18:48:54 <kmc> or you can use Clang and LLVM's JIT, I believe
18:48:58 <mrhmouse> benuphoenix: do you intend for users to write in this scripting language?
18:49:15 <mrhmouse> I could understand not giving a user the full power of C
18:49:16 <kmc> or you can use the Tiny C Compiler as a library: http://bellard.org/tcc/tcc-doc.html
18:49:31 <kmc> benuphoenix: why does it need to be "interpreted"? what property do you mean by that?
18:50:12 <kmc> in reality almost every language implementation out there is somewhere on the spectrum between "compiled" and "interpreted"
18:50:43 <kmc> Lua is a pretty nice language and has a small self-contained interpreter that you can drop into any C project
18:51:41 <zzo38> There are several other interpreters for scripting in C, but I haven't gotten ATLAST or many others (including Lua) to work.
18:51:42 <kmc> it's also a programming language
18:52:14 <kmc> if you do a google search for "lua" you are likely to find it as the first result
18:52:59 <zzo38> Or on Wikipedia, "Lua (programming language)"
18:53:03 <kmc> there are also some small scheme interpreters, e.g. http://tinyscheme.sourceforge.net/home.html
18:54:20 <zzo38> And if you use any JIT (or any C compiler) then it won't be compatible with other computers either
18:54:31 <boily> benuphoenix: were you `relcomed?
18:54:34 <kmc> basically there is no need for your language to be more verbose and less nice than C, even if you are using it with C on an embedded system
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18:56:58 <mrhmouse> boily: he wasn't, that I can see.
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18:57:53 <kmc> `relcome benuphoenix
18:57:56 <HackEgo> benuphoenix: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:58:37 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
19:00:51 <benuphoenix> in the code i linked, all caps stuff i can think of are single byte to save space
19:01:59 <mrhmouse> OT: did we ever fix `espletive to eventually give up instead of looping forever?
19:03:48 <kmc> `paste bin/espletive
19:03:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/espletive
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19:05:58 <kmc> `espletive
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19:06:01 <kmc> `espletive
19:06:32 <kmc> "\w*${1-fuck}\w*" how does this regex work?
19:07:49 <olsner> selects esolang-words containing fuck (by default)
19:08:13 <olsner> e.g. ${foo-bar} is "bar" if foo is unset
19:08:14 <kmc> i'm not familiar with the regex syntax ${1-fuck}
19:08:21 <kmc> that's a shell expansion
19:08:23 <mrhmouse> kmc: the ${1-fuck} bit isn't part of the regex
19:08:28 <kmc> `espletive foo
19:08:48 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:09:38 <mrhmouse> Okay, so it did eventually die
19:09:52 <mrhmouse> is that by design of HackEgo/UML?
19:11:48 <olsner> maybe words could be extended to take a regexp and just say no if it would never generate a matching word
19:13:15 <mrhmouse> that would be nice. `espletive was just a quick one-liner that got more attention than I expected
19:17:06 <kmc> 31 c0 b0 39 0f 05 eb f8
19:20:36 <boily> kmc: 0x57686174207468652066756e676f7420697320746861743f
19:20:58 <kmc> boily: amd64 linux forkbomb
19:21:39 <boily> the scientist in me wants to reproduce the experiment to confirm its validity, but the common-senseist is yelling «FAIS PAS ÇA!» in my head.
19:21:46 <olsner> looks like it'll work on both 32 and 64-bit
19:22:05 <kmc> olsner: I think the syscall numbers are different :/
19:22:06 <shachaf> "syscall" and the 64-bit syscall numbers work on 32-bit?
19:22:18 <kmc> also you can't assume the existence of the SYSCALL instruction on 32-bit
19:22:52 <olsner> true, but I think the cpus that have it also have it in 32-bit?
19:22:53 <shachaf> in particular i hear intel cpus won't support it, even if they support it in 64-bit mode
19:23:02 <kmc> does Linux still let 64-bit-native processes execute 32-bit syscalls using int $0x80
19:23:08 <kmc> that was a fun quirk
19:23:32 <kmc> esp. because it made CVE-2010-3081 exploitable under more different circumstances
19:23:53 <kmc> that CVE was Ksplice's big break
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19:27:12 <benuphoenix> what's the exploit that turns computers into clowns?
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19:32:50 <Bike> not on freenode
19:34:33 <elliott> that tends to happen when you say something that looks suspiciously like a password in a public IRC channel :P
19:36:24 <kmc> Bike did you try to nickserv identify as benuphoenix?
19:36:38 <kmc> that seems rude
19:36:40 <kmc> don't do that
19:37:13 <Taneb> kmc, can I nickserv identify as some idiot like Ngevd
19:37:15 <elliott> ghosting people who leak their password is traditional!!
19:38:02 <Taneb> I mean, I know his password and everything
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19:46:34 <boily> My password is ******************.
19:46:38 <boily> (no, it isn't hunter2)
19:46:50 <kmc> is it hunter3
19:47:03 <fizzie> "My voice is my passport. Verify me."
19:47:22 <olsner> fungot: what is your passport?
19:47:22 <fungot> olsner: eleven is in fact not jump, duck duck goose.
19:47:45 <boily> FireFly: nice try.
19:47:54 * boily lightly mapoles kmc
19:48:58 <fungot> FireFly: i've been reading it... that's totally wrong.
19:49:10 <FireFly> fungot: stop lying to us then!
19:49:11 <fungot> FireFly: you could return normally, i'm in melbourne... which is kinda weird since i haven't been able to recognize the odd bits ( as opposed to
19:49:29 <FireFly> Pretty sure that is a lie, too
19:49:43 <boily> fizzie: please chastise your bot. he is being uncouth.
19:51:20 <fizzie> fungot: Just... try to behave, for once.
19:51:21 <fungot> fizzie: i need to replace main.c totally i think i'll just stop capitalizing the ' w' in my interpreter :)), so you
19:52:14 <boily> the Legendary Capitalized W Ethics Problem strikes again.
19:52:56 <fizzie> "I'd behave, but then I'd need to replace main.c totally" is such an obvious excuse.
19:56:55 <boily> W := “totally replacing your own main.c”
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20:45:05 <boily> since when is our Fine Chännel non-critical?
20:45:40 <fungot> mrhmouse: so on right side, as you would in c though.)
20:46:19 <boily> the right side of C is mainly semi-colons.
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20:47:07 <boily> http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Letter+Less+critical+fewer+semicolons+2014/9346201/story.html ← less critical, fewer semicolons, so there is an inverse relationship between criticality and the usage of “;”.
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20:52:57 * boily uncritically mapoles Slereah_
21:00:38 <mrhmouse> metasepia doesn't respond to PMs?
21:02:13 <boily> sadly not. it will in the next version.
21:02:29 <boily> (you can also file an issue at https://github.com/pfcuttle/metasepia)
21:03:18 <mrhmouse> (you should probably fix issue #1 first)
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21:04:29 <boily> (la la la I don't see no issue #1 laaaa la lalalalalala ♪)
21:06:31 <mrhmouse> (I don't remember why we're lispering)
21:07:19 <boily> (I like lispering. parenthesises are fun!)
21:08:21 <boily> fungot: how many punctuational symbols do you regularly use? what is your degree of semicolonial confrontationalism?
21:08:21 <fungot> boily: humanity could be killed. and, um, fnord broken. :) thx to forcer and donut too :) i luv this channel recently. it's often a case that it will if you start up edwin, which i also happened to stop working on fffungi for now, it's worth 19 and made by a low-quality digital camera
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21:37:57 <Taneb> I am increasingly edging towards running for student union president on a platform of EVIL
21:39:55 <fizzie> The Platform of Doo<span style="letter-spacing: -0.1em;">rn</span>, eh?
21:42:05 <Taneb> The question is, could I be as good a SU president as Mad Cap'n Tom?
21:58:27 <HackEgo> olist (940): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
22:08:03 <FireFly> `quoteadd <fungot> [...] i also happened to stop working on fffungi for now, it's worth 19 and made by a low-quality digital camera
22:08:03 <fungot> FireFly: well, i can write programs faster in scheme than there are free common lisps. only cmucl was coming close. :d
22:08:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteadd: not found
22:08:25 <FireFly> Oh, it's addquote, isn't it?
22:08:32 <FireFly> `addquote <fungot> [...] i also happened to stop working on fffungi for now, it's worth 19 and made by a low-quality digital camera
22:08:32 <fungot> FireFly: ( i think), putting the executable in the right skit?
22:08:36 <HackEgo> 1162) <fungot> [...] i also happened to stop working on fffungi for now, it's worth 19 and made by a low-quality digital camera
22:09:55 <shachaf> fungot: whoa, that's p. fast. there are lots of free common lisps
22:09:56 <fungot> shachaf: you are asking.
22:10:02 <shachaf> (that's why they're called common)
22:10:10 <fungot> shachaf: lol, you're going to be
22:10:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:10:38 <FireFly> shachaf: you're going to *be*! how do you feel about that?
22:11:06 <shachaf> fungot: tell FireFly how i feel
22:11:06 <fungot> shachaf: i was waiting for lauri to make a decent zip handler that actually works with emacs under windows? i'm moving away from the rapid transit system that gets me the most, information processing science
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23:47:30 <Taneb> Help how can I demonstrate what a turing machine is in like 2 minutes
23:58:40 <nooodl_> current cell and state light up -> entry in lookup table lights up -> tape pointer moves and writes a value
23:59:27 <nooodl_> (make a little table of "states x alphabet -> directions x alphabet" or whatever and display it under the tape)
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00:54:37 <Sgeo> I started to write a Java class with 7 words in its name
00:55:20 <kmc> what's the name?
00:55:50 <kmc> even AbstractSingletonFactoryProxyBean only has 5 words, but I suppose you could tack on two more to say what it actually does
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00:57:06 <Sgeo> Don't want to say it in public
00:57:47 <Sgeo> What's with Quassel
00:57:53 <Sgeo> Trying to message kmc, doesn't seem to be working
00:58:10 <kmc> i have received your secret dispatch
00:58:36 <kmc> Sgeo: it has even more words if you expand acronyms :)
00:59:23 <Taneb> I don't want to know
00:59:41 <Sgeo> Most of it is just that it's a subclass of an already verbose class
00:59:56 <Taneb> (bare in mind I only know Java by reputation)
01:02:21 <Sgeo> I might not even use the class... Java's notion of wrappers kind of scares me
01:02:37 <Sgeo> In the sense that I can see some ways to do what I want, but nothing that strikes me as safe
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01:03:52 <Sgeo> I can only guess that Phantom_Hoover's Java allergy guided him away from the channel just in time
01:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> no i was rebooting to arch because windows was running the fan at full blast for some reason
01:05:06 <Phantom_Hoover> arch meanwhile has, out of nowhere, started scrolling more than a page with every click of the scrollwheel, rendering it frustratingly useless
01:07:32 <Sgeo> kmc: There is such a thing as excessive love for Rust: http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1o9tp4/sicp_with_rust/
01:08:16 <Sgeo> I feel less ... confused by attempts to translate it to CL or Clojure
01:14:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ok why is my scrollwheel fucked and how do i unfuck it
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01:39:16 <kmc> did you try turning it off and back on again
01:58:41 <pikhq> Taneb: Java isn't so much "scary" as "bureaucratic".
02:03:11 <kmc> the amount of accidental complexity is pretty scary
02:03:14 <kmc> if you care about software that works
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02:51:07 <copumpkin> kmc: if you could get a job in any language you wanted, what would it be? are you only sick of the haskell community or did the language itself get old too?
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02:53:32 <kmc> copumpkin: I still like Haskell; I also expect there are many corners of the Haskell community that I would enjoy
02:53:48 <kmc> I've long thought that IRC isn't really representative of the people who are using Haskell in production
02:54:07 <kmc> it's just hard to keep up when there are so many other things to spend my time and energy on
02:54:20 <kmc> anyway I don't think of language choice as a super important factor in picking a job
02:54:36 <copumpkin> although I would indeed prefer haskell :)
02:55:09 <kmc> the rapid rate of change in the language can get annoying
02:55:16 <kmc> especially when things get worse (but usually for good reason)
02:56:23 <kmc> don't have time to talk about it right now, sorry
03:17:13 <pikhq> It has become a portal to the mucus dimension.
03:30:55 <Sgeo> I am officially considering myself lactose intolerant again
03:31:08 <Sgeo> On an unrelated note, I consider today a failure of see something say something
03:33:20 <Sgeo> Told a person at the train station about some plastic bag at the tracks, called to tell them about a waiting room that smelled heavily of gasoline. Got thanked a lot, but probably wasted everyone's time
03:33:39 <Sgeo> I have got to stop being so panicky
03:44:04 <Sgeo> `olist 940 (Don't care if it's been done, I haven't seen it)
03:44:06 <HackEgo> olist 940 (Don't care if it's been done, I haven't seen it): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
03:50:41 <Sgeo> It has been done. So much for me not caring
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04:48:41 <kmc> Sgeo: you should tell #cslounge-trains also
04:48:43 <kmc> if you want
04:49:34 <shachaf> is that channel into olist
04:50:16 <kmc> Sgeo: I meant the story that had something to do with trains
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05:11:15 <lambdabot> boily said 15h 46m ago: maybe I'm a meta-näkki?
05:12:07 <oerjan> @tell boily If you met a näkki, you wouldn't be here. QED.
05:12:30 * oerjan is crushed by ye olde falling anvil.
05:23:40 <Sgeo> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bbs0wB3CQAEDUZE.png
05:24:30 <kmc> http://docs.racket-lang.org/unstable/2d.html
05:27:12 <Sgeo> Doesn't seem to work for me
05:27:28 <Sgeo> Don't know if Racket v6 is needed, but those aren't the nightly docs
05:27:53 <Sgeo> Oh, needed a require
05:30:11 * oerjan wonders if the merging supports things like isolated islands
05:31:55 <oerjan> hm "No cells may span rows."
05:32:43 <oerjan> oh that's for #2dtabular
05:34:00 <Sgeo> I still feel iffy about the difficulty of making lexical syntax scanners that take up only a portion of the file... although that's done here, it required an addition to the #lang line
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07:27:52 <zzo38> What kind of computer golf games will allow you to select the set of clubs during the game instead of only before it starts or being hardcoded in?
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08:03:11 <quintopia> there was that one windows golf game that let you always carry all of the clubs around
08:04:21 <myname> won't that work if you have enough people carrying them around for you?
08:05:22 <quintopia> maybe zzo38 means like style and model of clubs.
08:06:50 <zzo38> Normally you can have only fourteen clubs; I mean to allowed you to select which fourteen clubs without having to select before it starts.
08:07:53 <quintopia> don't the rules of golf require you to select before the match starts
08:08:33 <zzo38> I think it actually allows you to select even during the match, as long as you don't delay the game and don't remove any you have already added, and don't have more than fourteen, and exactly one is the putter.
08:09:37 <quintopia> so you want to be able to decide on an as-needed basis, adding clubs to your bag one by one.
08:10:30 <myname> people should invent transformer clubs
08:11:00 <zzo38> Transforming golf clubs are explicitly prohibited by the rules, though.
08:13:50 <myname> the only winning move is not to play
08:15:18 <quintopia> zzo38: i couldn't find my copy of modplug tracker. i always lose it. so i didn't listen to your song.
08:15:45 <zzo38> quintopia: It isn't made in Modplug Tracker, and I don't think Modplug Tracker will play it anyways.
08:17:03 <zzo38> Because it isn't a tracker format.
08:17:25 <zzo38> (But even if it is, there are a few that Modplug doesn't support.)
08:18:09 <zzo38> I think VLC might play it; I'm not sure.
08:18:39 <quintopia> i accidentally unzipped it into a big folder with other stuff
08:19:09 <zzo38> And it is updated now; now there are three files and a few fixes to the old ones
08:19:12 <quintopia> ah good. i like national science foundation files
08:19:24 <zzo38> (I mean three songs; they are all compiled into a single .nsf)
08:19:59 <zzo38> A .nsf file is a program in 6502 machine code that writes audio registers of up to seven kind of sound chips.
08:20:50 <zzo38> (This one uses only the 2A03 chip, which should be supported in all programs that play NSF; some programs may lack support for some of the other sound chips though.)
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08:24:32 <quintopia> i don't think any standard music players support it :/
08:25:19 <zzo38> O no, some do; the music player included standard with Ubuntu seems to play it. Also, any NES/Famicom emulator should play it.
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08:26:00 <zzo38> (At Free Geek they have Ubuntu and I tried loading a .NSF and it played it)
08:26:01 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: yeah, gstreamer has an NSF plug-in built in: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166752
08:26:56 <lifthrasiir> I do know some niche music and non-music formats with no known such plugins besides from Winamp...
08:26:57 <Sgeo> https://wiki.videolan.org/Gme/
08:27:40 <Sgeo> https://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?t=33305
08:30:17 <zzo38> So, yes VLC can play it. I don't know which sound chips it supports other than 2A03, but this particular one doesn't use any others anyways, so it is OK.
08:36:27 <zzo38> However you might want to redownload the .zip since it is updated.
08:39:59 <zzo38> The file "attrzone.nsf" is a playable music file with three tracks, "attrzone.asm" is source file for th e game, "attrzone.nes" is the game binary, "attrzone.orc" is a Csound orchestra file, "aznsf.asm" is source code for the NSF, "huffer.c" is a Huffman analysis and compression program, "leveldec.inc" and "levelptr.inc" are automatically created from the compression
08:41:22 <zzo38> "lvlcopy.c" is used to extract RAM images, "mkperiod.bas" is source for "tone.bin", "pc.chr" is the PC character set, "read.me" currently is useless, "rle.dat" is input for huffer.c, "song*.mml" are sources for each song, "song*.bin" are (unplayable) binaries for each song, "tone.bin" is a lookup table to convert note numbers to periods, and "ziplist" lists all the files in the ZIP.
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13:08:02 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 55m 54s ago: If you met a näkki, you wouldn't be here. QED.
13:08:25 <metasepia> EFHK 231250Z 02005KT 9999 FEW002 M14/M16 Q1033 NOSIG
13:08:30 <metasepia> CYUL 231300Z 23009KT 15SM FEW010 BKN200 M23/M27 A3010 RMK SF1CI7 SF TR SLP197
13:08:45 <fizzie> It was M17 or so in the morning, seems to have warmed up a bit.
13:09:01 <boily> @tell oerjan of course I wouldn't be here, I'd be meating a näkki.
13:09:02 <fizzie> Also we have a 2 kW electric heater in the office now.
13:09:37 <fizzie> It's in the middle of the room, and feels very primal. "Gather 'round the fire" and all that.
13:09:55 <boily> do anyone of you have a guitar?
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15:29:50 <HackEgo> trn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:52:59 <trn> Hello guys.
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15:56:26 <HackEgo> messi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:56:45 <boily> trn: are you an esolang amateur?
16:00:33 <trn> Very much so.
16:00:43 <trn> I'm actually not all that much into the esolangs themselves.
16:01:16 <trn> But I like esoteric and retro projects and the creativity and cleverness of it all.
16:01:49 <oklopol> so this one day i was thinking
16:02:30 <oklopol> that maybe i could try to make an esolang
16:02:51 <oklopol> i don't know what got into me
16:09:40 <trn> boily: I have a PDP-11 port of CP/M for example.
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16:52:55 <zzo38> Do you have a PDP-11 though?
16:59:10 <quintopia> does anyi wouldn't expect a an original 1960s DEC product to run at all
17:03:32 <int-e> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/ looks relevant
17:04:17 <int-e> (Though they don't say whether they are still using original hardware. there's a reason why they might: the plant is probably certified including the computer hardware in use.)
17:06:50 <quintopia> i wish i could just keep a computer in its exact current state for a lifetime, never modifying it except to apply security patches, and always having support
17:06:57 <quintopia> but the world doesn't work that way
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17:10:29 <metasepia> ENVA 231650Z 14025KT CAVOK M03/M16 Q1019 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 17020KT
17:10:40 <lambdabot> boily said 4h 1m 39s ago: of course I wouldn't be here, I'd be meating a näkki.
17:17:32 <kmc> ~metar LEWD
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17:18:05 <oerjan> <fizzie> It's in the middle of the room, and feels very primal. "Gather 'round the fire" and all that. <-- electric cavemen?
17:19:17 <oerjan> trn: hi there, didn't you use to be my usenet reader
17:21:22 <trn> oerjan: I would have recommended tin myself :b
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17:22:35 <oerjan> back when i last did usenet, slrn seemed to be the ultra-fancy one people recommended
17:23:21 <trn> I use slrn now.
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17:23:30 <oerjan> (this may have been last millennium, certainly not long after)
17:25:29 <trn> My nick usage of 'trn' predates USENET trn tho :b
17:27:41 <oerjan> next you'll tell us you used original pdp-11s
17:28:33 <trn> Not really PDP-11's much, but VAX.
17:32:19 <zzo38> This file include some description of unusual feature of VAX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian/Computer_architectures
17:34:02 <Deewiant> http://blog.codecombat.com/having-your-algorithms-ass-kicked-by-the-internet this jerk describes exactly the next todo in my funge-space impl, and instead of implementing it for me dismisses it with "*Too hard*, I thought."
17:39:04 <kmc> 'As I wrote on Wikipedia, EMODH #5345.1524[r7], @mul_ext_ptr[r0], #3.141592765[r5], @int_table[r1], @frac_table[r2] is 2+18+6+18+6+6, or 56 bytes'
17:50:44 <zzo38> I haven't done anything with VAX programs although I have written programs using a 6502 instruction set, and sometimes tried to design my own instruction sets
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18:30:02 <fungot> boily: that's crazy talk. we should do it.
18:30:18 <boily> fungot: of course it's crazy talk. and stop perverting kmc.
18:30:18 <fungot> boily: ( untested)" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ results/ fnord children_list is list of numbers
18:30:33 <boily> fungot: experimental corruption? interesting.
18:30:33 <fungot> boily: who'd you suggest?) but what i have so far. http://geekz.co.uk/ lovesraymond/ archive/ html/ fnord/ files/ system%20down.txt in the
18:30:45 <kmc> you cannot pervert that which is already perverted
18:30:59 <boily> fungot: I think kmc is a good subject, all in all.
18:30:59 <fungot> boily: it passed 1000000). the first one is supposed to be anonymous any more.
18:38:18 <Bike> http://now-here-this.timeout.com/2014/01/23/victoria-line-concrete-flooded-signal-room-photos-not-a-hoax/
18:39:20 <kmc> gooooooooood times
18:41:10 <boily> this is not something that has ever happened before, eh?
18:41:52 <kmc> not as far as I know
18:55:29 <kmc> a gold standard cock-up
19:04:31 <oerjan> i guess they've cemented their reputation
19:07:44 <kmc> "Let he who has not accidentally filled his workplace with a fast-drying cement cast the first stone."
19:08:20 <oerjan> i can think of some candidates there
19:08:42 <int-e> I know this is the wrong material, but could this still qualify as yet another brick in the wall?
19:10:34 <oerjan> well it _did_ brick that equipment.
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19:16:51 <olsner> 56 bytes for an instruction is still not as bad as that CASEx thing: "Technically it can be 8GB long, but the VAX only has 4GB of addressing space."
19:18:01 * quintopia replaces boily with a specialized computer
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19:22:58 <boily> I am not one to be so easily replaced!
19:23:07 * boily specially mapoles quintopia
19:25:16 <quintopia> wonderful! the mapole functionality works as expected. simulating boily is so easy. just a chatbot with extra mapoles, fungots, and metars.
19:25:16 <fungot> quintopia: it is true that you can't just generate stuff the function wants. ( both are still broken are mutt, tin, all ncurses programs, gpm,...
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19:48:41 <myname> so, TC again: can you say, computers are TC? if so, can you say something is TC if you can build basic logic gates and the like?
19:49:29 <kmc> to be turing complete you need an unbounded amount of storage
19:49:38 <kmc> which no real computer has, so we often gloss over this detail
19:50:24 <myname> is there actually some used subclass of TC with bounded memory?
19:51:43 <boily> cellular automatons :D
19:52:02 <olsner> or finite state automata
19:52:33 <myname> infinite states would make them tc?
19:52:41 <olsner> if you have bounded memory, that's just a whole lot of states
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19:54:36 <olsner> it's not the best model (2^(8*4GB) is a lot of states), but I think anything that has bounded memory *can* be reduced to one in principle
19:55:03 <kmc> also linear bounded automata
19:56:41 <kmc> LBAs can recognize a larger set of languages than FSMs because... uh because the storage is proportional to the input string length, rather than completely constant
19:57:56 <kmc> note that a TM is a "FSM with a tape", so proving that things are "basically TC" by showing they would be TC when augmented with a tape is pretty meaningless
19:58:38 <olsner> hmm, is only linear bounded automata a thing? how about e.g. polynomial bounded automata?
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20:02:58 <kmc> google search for "quadratic bounded automaton" finds a textbook with an exercise to prove they're TC
20:03:06 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/fWYX4bE.png
20:03:58 <kmc> just that they can be recognized / simulated by a TM
20:04:42 <kmc> "polynomial bounded automaton" would be the complexity class PSPACE, i guess?
20:04:46 <shachaf> well, decidable, not just recognizable
20:05:40 <olsner> hmm, isn't that exercise really boring? just remove the tape use restrictions and it's exactly a TM?
20:05:41 <kmc> ah yeah, so the hard part is detecting that D has failed to halt on w
20:06:26 <kmc> but it's not that hard because it has only |w|^2 * Σ states or so
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20:06:52 <kmc> so you can just simulate it for that many steps and give up if it hasn't halted
20:07:18 <kmc> |w|^2 * |Σ| i mean. gah it's been a while
20:07:54 <olsner> the number of steps could be a lot more than the length of the tape though?
20:09:34 <olsner> oh well, it'll be some number of steps that is obvious and trivial to calculate if you know how
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20:16:20 <kmc> yeah I still have it wrong
20:16:42 <kmc> it's like |Σ|^(1 + |w|^2)
20:16:55 <kmc> assuming same alphabet for tape and head states
20:17:46 <olsner> don't you need to include the position of the head somewhere too?
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20:56:40 <ion> http://lindahls.fi/tuotteet.aspx
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21:24:51 <ion> http://glitzelectronics.com/
21:28:59 <kmc> ion: whyon
21:29:48 <int-e> kay-em-see, how does one make a pun with that? komical?
21:33:19 <boily> kmc is notoriously unpunnable, even with `ello and other fternooning matters.
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21:40:47 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/5NIH6iV.jpg has everyone seen this yet
21:41:18 <nooodl> Bike: as soon as i could answer that the answer had already become yes
21:43:48 <kmc> what's all this then
21:45:00 <Bike> it's stuff charlie brooks tried to hide from the police
21:45:55 <Bike> as part of hackgate
21:46:45 <kmc> i'm disappointed that "instant lesbian" is a DVD and not, like, a powder you add to water
21:46:46 <nooodl> calling stuff whatevergate is so ridiculous
21:46:55 <Bike> it is, but that's what it's calleed
21:46:55 <kmc> nooodl: yuppp
21:47:11 <Bike> i mean the whole "news international is full of shits and hack into the queen's phone"
21:47:32 <kmc> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/low_concept/2014/01/bridgegate_or_bridgeghazi_chris_christie_s_bridge_scandal_needs_a_name.html
21:48:21 <fizzie> Grumble frumble Sunday conference deadlines, what's up with that, don't they realize people always leave these things to the last moment and are going to have to waste their precious weekend time.
21:54:34 <fizzie> (Technically, it's a "Sunday anywhere on Earth" deadline, but I'm not going to count on waking up early enough on Monday Finnish-morning to take advantage of that.)
21:55:34 <kmc> take over a tiny country somewhere, pass sweeping calendar reforms
22:01:29 <int-e> fizzie: yes they do
22:01:58 <fizzie> Are they just EVIL then?
22:06:41 <int-e> It's just that a friday deadline doesn't make sense assuming a program committee with healthy working days.
22:06:59 <int-e> I've seen monday and tuesday deadlines, too.
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22:18:51 <Bike> matlab has sprintf but not printf, ok
22:18:59 <fizzie> Bike: It has fprintf too.
22:19:09 <fizzie> And fprintf(1, ...) is pretty much printf(...).
22:19:30 <kmc> (FILE *) 1
22:19:39 <Bike> hardcoding fids seems gross
22:19:46 <fizzie> It's gross but it's done. :p
22:19:59 <Bike> disp(sprintf(...)) also seems gross, but i figured it's matlab
22:20:03 <fizzie> You can write "stdout" too, but I think that didn't work in Octave or something.
22:20:17 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the other way around, that you can write "stdout" in Octave.
22:20:18 <Bike> octave can't run the codebase anyway V_V
22:20:20 <pikhq> The file descriptors 0, 1, and 2 actually are defined to be stdin, stdout, and stderr in Unix-land, so eh.
22:20:53 <fizzie> You can stick a printf.m in there somewhere, of course.
22:20:54 <Bike> pikhq: yeah but (a) this is windows and (b) if you didn't know that (and this isn't computer scientist land, most people reading don't)...
22:20:54 <pikhq> kmc: Amusingly, that could be a valid definition of stdout.
22:21:25 <pikhq> Bike: It's also the case on common Windows environments, because file descriptors there are a fiction maintained by the C library.
22:21:43 <Bike> yeah i figured
22:21:44 <kmc> in C you can also write STDOUT_FILENO or fileno(stdout)
22:22:27 <pikhq> Yes, but STDOUT_FILENO is 1.
22:22:27 <kmc> odd that file descriptors are part of C and not just POSIX
22:22:37 <pikhq> They aren't part of C.
22:23:00 <kmc> ah fileno(): _POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 1 || _XOPEN_SOURCE || _POSIX_SOURCE
22:23:05 <kmc> then why do Windows environments provide them as a fiction?
22:23:22 <fizzie> Bike: Yeah, it was the case that the "stdout" thing was an Octave thing, and in MATLAB you just hardcode them.
22:23:49 <fizzie> Though disp(sprintf(...)) is seen too.
22:24:11 <Bike> yeah i copied that from a help page
22:24:34 <Bike> it's just shitty debug output, anyway, i oughta rewrite this whole fucking program
22:24:48 <fizzie> Anyway, from help fprintf: "Obtain FID from FOPEN, or set it to 1 (for standard output, the screen) or 2 (standard error)."
22:24:51 <kmc> rewrite it in python
22:25:15 <pikhq> Windows libcs end up offering a *really* random hodgepodge of Unix functions because DOS libcs happened to offer a really random hodgepodge of Unix functions.
22:25:30 <Bike> wouldn't really help my recurring "oh my god, there are six thousand arguments to this function" problems
22:25:35 <pikhq> Not for any explicit reason, but simply because there was no such thing as "standard" C.
22:25:40 <Bike> also. i just noticed this powerstrip has ethernet ports
22:27:05 <ais523> Bike: sure they aren't telephone ports (that look similar)? the idea's to protect your telephone from being struck by lightning
22:27:08 <Bike> or maybe they're phone jacks...
22:27:18 <shachaf> does it look like https://www.pwnieexpress.com/penetration-testing-vulnerability-assessment-products/sensors/pwn-power/
22:27:23 <Bike> i can never tell the difference :<
22:27:39 <fizzie> ais523: You get RJ45 in surge protectors too. Though I guess RJ11 is more common.
22:27:41 <pikhq> Some power strips have actual Ethernet ports with the same idea.
22:27:46 <Bike> shachaf: please tell me that's not named after the internet slang.
22:27:54 <Bike> ...is this real
22:28:18 <ais523> pikhq: but Ethernet cables tend to be underground, and thus much less in danger from lightning, than phone cables (which at least in the UK tend to run through the air for the last mile)
22:28:22 <Bike> what is this for
22:28:32 <ais523> Bike: look at the domain name
22:28:45 <pikhq> I'm not saying it amkes sense, just that that's the idea. :)
22:29:24 <shachaf> Bike: alt. like this http://gnurds.com/index.php/2012/10/02/raspberry-pi-power-strip/
22:29:29 <shachaf> i guess these things are popular
22:29:50 <pikhq> It's also the case that Ethernet jacks are hooked up via optical isolators, anyways, so surges are much less likely to be hazardous on Ethernet lines *anyways*.
22:30:30 <Bike> i seriously don't understand, why is a power strip also loaded with nmap
22:30:59 <pikhq> ais523: In the US it's decently common for phone cables to run through the air as well.
22:32:04 <pikhq> Not as a guarantee, mind. Pretty much it's whatever happened to be most practical at the time they were putting in lines.
22:33:02 <kmc> i thought they were usually magnetic rather than optical
22:33:36 <pikhq> Pretty sure the spec's optical.
22:33:41 <kmc> http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/27756/why-are-ethernet-rj45-sockets-magnetically-coupled
22:33:54 <pikhq> Not that it matters.
22:33:57 <kmc> "Even a 10 MHz square wave has levels lasting only 50 ns. That is very fast for opto-couplers. There are light transmission means that go much much faster than that, but they are not cheap or simple at each end like the ethernet pulse transformers are."
22:34:01 <Bike> ooh ooh is this where i can ask what 'magnetics' means in the context of ethernet
22:34:36 <kmc> well, I think a lightning strike is more likely to cross magnetic isolation than optical isolation
22:34:37 <pikhq> Same net effect on preventing massive catastrophic damage from surges though.
22:34:39 <kmc> but I'm not sure
22:35:28 <pikhq> Yes, though the danger is usually not direct lightning strikes, but rather unusually high current induced by a nearby lightning strike.
22:35:45 <kmc> Bike: the idea is you physically infiltrate this computer, disguised as a harmless power strip, into your target's network
22:36:03 <Bike> i wonder if anyone' used that
22:36:09 <kmc> you know when you're `````pentesting'''''
22:36:16 <kmc> I expect so
22:36:21 <kmc> also $1500??? jesus
22:36:32 <Bike> yeah shachaf's second link there starts by complaining about the price :D
22:36:44 <Bike> why is pentesting in quotes, is this a sarcasm thing i am unacquainted with
22:37:13 <kmc> just that the same tools are equally useful for "actually breakin' in to shit"
22:37:20 <kmc> but are always sold for pentesting
22:37:44 <kmc> Text-to-Bash: text in bash commands via SMS!
22:37:51 <Bike> i noticed that.
22:38:10 <pikhq> Makes sense though. Any tool that's useful for testing security is just about as useful for utterly violating that security.
22:38:24 <kmc> to varying degrees, though
22:38:34 <kmc> e.g. there's a big difference between proof-of-concept exploits and weaponized exploits
22:38:49 <pikhq> nmap is not that useful for breaking in, except for telling you a way it's possible.
22:39:16 <Bike> idea: make a fake annoy-a-tron that's loaded with all this breaker shit, give it as a gift to someone whose office you want to break into
22:39:20 <pikhq> If nmap alone gets root on a box, well, damn.
22:39:21 <Bike> noone will see it coming
22:39:54 <pikhq> $1500 though? Jesus.
22:40:19 <pikhq> At that cost I expect a computer to be an exceptionally awesome beast.
22:42:00 <pikhq> Or at least come with a free blowjob.
22:42:26 <kmc> i prefer the much cheaper open source DIY blowjobs
22:42:39 * pikhq is not flexible enough
22:42:55 <kmc> well they say open source is about collaboration...
22:43:14 <pikhq> But then it's not DIY.
22:51:36 <kmc> i don't think that term excludes collaborative projects
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00:27:37 <Taneb> Quick! What's a good name for a live esolang creation event
00:29:10 <ais523> The Return Of ABCDEFG: We're Allowed To Abbreviate It This Time
00:30:03 <ais523> or, hmm, Richard, that's a good name
00:31:32 <pikhq> Quintile programmatic dinglearms.
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00:48:15 <ski> "The author is aware of one (fortunately today defunct) programming language that provides addition, subtraction, and division, with multiplication notably absent, being expressible as division."
00:49:04 <ais523> Verity has add, subtract, multiply, but not divide
00:49:13 <ais523> because division's really expensive on hardware
00:49:21 <Taneb> ais523, a name for the event, not the language
00:50:16 <ais523> Taneb: err, my names were silly enough that I don't get why you think they have to refer to a language specifically
00:50:24 <ais523> aren't they equally inappropriate in both contexts?
00:50:36 <Taneb> I could imagine a language by both those name
00:50:44 <ski> "Fortunately, it is dead. It was a scripting language for an interactive media engine like HyperCard. Actually, it was the Windows version of that scripting language; the Mac version (which, I understand, was only vaguely compatible, and had a totally different implementation) had multiplication."
00:51:05 <shachaf> Taneb: Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
00:51:08 <ski> (<http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/division.txt>)
00:51:10 <shachaf> that would be a good name for an event
00:52:36 * ski . o O ( hmm, "text in bash commands via Sega Master System!" )
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01:43:02 <Sgeo> Servlets are starting to confuse me
01:43:17 <kmc> they're like servers but smaller
01:43:18 <kmc> what's the big deal
01:44:50 <copumpkin> so by the transitive property of equality, servlets are http://i.imgur.com/Ew3ivK0.jpg
01:48:00 <Sgeo> kmc: what looks like an imperative action to continue processing still has components that wait until the call is finished before processing really continues
01:48:34 <Sgeo> That is... after a filter calls doFilter() on the FilterChain that it received as an argument... that still doesn't imply the result getting sent back to the client yet
01:48:38 <Sgeo> I thought it would
01:48:43 <Sgeo> I'm...still not sure
01:48:48 <kmc> that's kind of strange
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03:47:31 <Sgeo> Ahahaha fun thought: Redefine Racket's #%app to run Kernel-style operatives within a Racket macro
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04:09:16 <Sgeo> https://pkg.racket-lang.org/ cert expired :(
04:17:29 <kmc> bummer too
04:19:38 <Sgeo> "You might imagine that even though eval cannot see the local bindings in broken-eval-formula, there must actually be a data structure mapping x to 2 and y to 3, and you would like a way to get that data structure. In fact, no such data structure exists; the compiler is free to replace every use of x with 2 at compile time, so that the local binding of x does not exist in any concrete sense at run-time. "
04:20:09 <Sgeo> Clojure lets you get that structure at compile time via macros, and then bring it into run-tim
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05:17:30 <Sgeo> Oh hey the latest Cyanide and Happiness skit is actually non-boring
05:33:52 <Sgeo> I like some of them. The first few Thursday ones were good
05:33:58 <Sgeo> Then... they became simpler, I feel
05:35:47 <oklopol> they have a video every thursday?
05:36:25 <oklopol> i still don't know how many times a week (and which days) different comics update even though i check xkcd, smbc and c&h every day
05:37:59 <kmc> TIL what parseInt(null) evaluates to in JavaScript
05:38:18 <Sgeo> That's actually true.
05:38:22 <shachaf> The same thing parseInt("") does?
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05:43:50 <oklopol> Sgeo: i am easy to entertain, i think i've liked them all
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05:47:03 <kmc> shachaf: yeah. well, or any other invalid int-string
05:47:09 <kmc> anyway it evaluates to NaN
05:48:15 <Sgeo> kmc: have you seen wat?
05:48:21 <madbr> always thought parsing non numeral strings as NaN was a bad idea
05:50:13 <madbr> nan is bad... i can understand why it exists but it's still bad
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05:57:57 <shachaf> kmc: you know how when you have a string literal, ghc will turn it into GHC.unpackCString# or GHC.unpackCStringUtf8# of a c string?
05:58:15 <shachaf> but ghc strings support \0 and c strings don't
05:58:32 <shachaf> so ghc encodes it as overlong utf-8
06:00:37 <shachaf> that seemed to me like a funny use case
06:01:17 <shachaf> one thing it means is that things like Data.Text which have rewrite rules so that they can get at the c string directly have to have broken utf-8 decoders
06:03:13 * Sgeo installs Folding@Home
06:06:31 <Sgeo> Slightly creepy that the UI is via the web at a publically accessible URL
06:07:35 <Sgeo> :( it uses jsonp to get data from a hardcoded port on localhost
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06:11:39 <Sgeo> http://www.overclockers.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-454787.html
06:12:46 <Bike> sgeo isn't going to let those computational biologists get away with secretly helping the RBN
06:13:43 <Bike> russian business network, they were the big malware spreaders last i checked, which was years back
06:15:24 <oerjan> well the link is from 2006 anyway
06:16:16 <Sgeo> Ok, looks like most of the control panel is just an iframe to a page hosted by localhost
06:16:19 <Sgeo> So that's good
06:18:17 <Sgeo> GET requests... but the requests have a required sid attribute
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06:19:46 <Sgeo> So, probably, the only slightly malicious thing I could do is see whether someone is running the F@H
06:34:15 <Sgeo> Hmm, seeing some suggestions that Folding@Home isn't so great
06:36:36 <Bike> why not try writing some protein folding simulations yourself?
06:36:50 <Bike> i mean, who doesn't like computational thermophysical chemistry.
06:38:15 <Bike> maybe you, sgeo, will be the one to crack the paradox of levinthal
06:53:44 <kmc> shachaf: oh, that's awkward
06:54:10 <kmc> seems like it would be better for the primop to take a length argument as well
06:54:37 <shachaf> yes, i'm asking about that in #ghc
06:55:25 <kmc> it would make the bytestring case faster too
06:55:32 <kmc> or data.text, whatever
06:56:40 <shachaf> except you still can't tell the size to allocate exactly because it's utf-16 :'(
06:56:56 <shachaf> but you can if you have unpackCString# and not unpackCStringUtf8#
07:05:04 <Sgeo> Chewable lactaid pills are so delicious, why did I buy the non-chewable kind when I bought them a while ago?
07:06:20 <Bike> kmc: what's a pseudorandom function
07:07:55 <kmc> well, imagine picking one function randomly from the set of functions A → B
07:08:49 <kmc> for each x ∈ A, f(x) will be an element of B chosen randomly and independently of all other outputs of f
07:10:07 <kmc> when we say f is a pseudorandom function we mean that it's "approximately as if" it was chosen randomly in this way
07:10:24 <kmc> in some precise and tedious formal sense that I probably won't get right if I try to explain
07:11:45 <Bike> quite understandable
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07:41:34 <Sgeo> I think Racket has more of an emphasis on making useful error messages than most metaprogrammy languages
07:41:53 <Sgeo> But it's apparently still a difficult thing to get correct in Racket sometimes
07:42:22 <kmc> I suppose the thing of having "syntax objects" with source position info rather than mere lists and symbols helps with that?
07:42:45 <Sgeo> Although syntax objects are also ... something to do with lexical context
07:43:21 <kmc> this is just one reason to have them
07:45:12 <Sgeo> I still need to attempt to understand that SRFI that criticises most modern hygiene algorithms
07:45:23 <Sgeo> I know I tried to transliterate its example into Racket and Racket failed
07:45:30 <Sgeo> Which makes me sad but I still don't understand it
07:53:19 <shachaf> you know the thing where someone makes a mistake and it's pointed out and they immediately say they're tired?
07:53:34 * Sgeo is guilty of that >.>
07:53:40 <shachaf> by my calculations almost all irc mistakes are made due to being tired
07:53:44 <Sgeo> Although, I am tired approximately 100% of the time
07:54:03 <shachaf> the world needs more sleep. practically no mistakes would be made
07:54:31 <Sgeo> I have a savegame on NAO that I haven't touched since... maybe 2008. I'm afraid of messing it up while tired
07:54:43 <Bike> these calculations sound currect
07:54:54 <Bike> I'M TIRED LOL i didn't make that error intentionally i sear
07:55:10 <Sgeo> "has a save file, dated Fri, 20 Apr 2012, 22:19:45"
07:55:29 <shachaf> well i lost hundreds of nethack games due to being tired
07:55:30 <Sgeo> So, not 2008. Unless 2012 was the last time I decided to take a peek at it
07:56:04 <Sgeo> 2010 was the last finished game I have on NAO, so I'm guessing around then is when I started the game
08:26:30 <Sgeo> I think I understand the Servlet behavior now
08:26:43 <Sgeo> My way of thinking it occurred was... hmm. Slightly bizarre?
08:38:48 <oklopol> so i sent mathematica my python programs for enumerating surjective CA and checking whether they are right- or left-closing
08:39:01 <oklopol> and i guess their experts will now tell me how that's done in mathematica in an easier way
08:39:09 <oklopol> (i did mention this here right?)
08:44:54 <oklopol> my hope is that they add IsSurjective and IsInjective in their CA library
08:45:09 <oklopol> (unless they have those already, i guess i haven't actually checked)
08:45:12 <Bike> what does a CA being surjective mean.
08:45:28 <oerjan> i repeat, i thought that was undecidable.
08:45:38 <oklopol> a CA is a function f : S^\Z \to S^\Z where S is a finite set
08:45:46 <oklopol> oerjan: for 1d only of course
08:45:53 <shachaf> that there are no "eden" states?
08:46:13 <Bike> that i can understand.
08:46:15 <oklopol> Bike: with my definition, a CA is surjective if... it's surjective
08:46:35 <oklopol> it's just a particular kind of function
08:46:35 <oerjan> oklopol: now that's just crazy talk.
08:46:36 <Bike> ah but your definition has the fatal flaw that i don't understand it! take that, math
08:47:14 <Bike> honestly i'm not sure i'm sure i'm sure i'm sure i know what ^Z means
08:47:16 <oerjan> math dies from Bike's failure to understand, civilization collapses.
08:47:21 <shachaf> Bike: a function from integers to S
08:47:35 <oklopol> two-way infinite sequence over S
08:48:14 <Bike> so like, we can say that Z is a coordinate of a point on the game of life, and S is the set of states, so the function describes the current state of the whole grid. and then the S^Z to S^Z is just the state transition.
08:48:16 <oklopol> (with the obvious topology *krhm*)
08:48:23 <shachaf> what's the obvious topology
08:48:28 <Bike> welcome to Bike Isn't Good At Math Hour
08:48:31 <oklopol> shachaf: what's the obvious topology of \Z?
08:48:52 <Bike> prrrrobably also discrete?
08:49:09 <Bike> imagine me failing to roll the r there, like an american tourist in paris
08:49:30 <oklopol> so obviously S^\Z has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact-open_topology
08:50:01 <Bike> i bet this is described as trivial often
08:50:21 <oklopol> two sequences are 2^{-n}-close if they agree in the n centralmost cells
08:50:33 <oklopol> that metric gives you the obvious topology
08:50:59 <Bike> ooh ooh! [something about light cones!]
08:51:10 <Bike> hm maybe that should be "[something about light cones]!"
08:51:16 <Bike> i guess the thing could itself be excitable, though
08:51:22 <oklopol> btw. i didn't _actually_ check that this is the compact-open topology for S and \Z discrete, but surely it is
08:51:41 <oerjan> it's the product topology, anyway.
08:51:43 <shachaf> "In the category of topological spaces, the exponential object ZY exists provided that Y is a locally compact Hausdorff space. In that case, the space ZY is the set of all continuous functions from Y to Z together with the compact-open topology."
08:52:30 <shachaf> "Logical relations among the conditions: * Conditions (2), (2′), (2″) are equivalent. * Neither of conditions (2), (3) implies the other. * Each condition implies (1). * Compactness implies conditions (1) and (2), but not (3)."
08:52:35 <shachaf> ok is this one of those logic puzzles
08:52:40 <oklopol> oerjan: but that's not nearly as confusing.
08:54:02 <oerjan> shachaf: he can't, he's escaped your light cone
08:54:02 <Bike> two knights guard the gate. a sign says one knight always lies and one always tells the truth. one begins to speak. "Every CW complex is compactly generated Hausdorff,"
08:54:42 <oerjan> Bike: this is clearly even worse than the xkcd version
08:56:13 <oklopol> ...so okay i'm pretty sure that the compact-open topology gives you that topology
08:57:48 <oklopol> oerjan: even though surjectivity is undecidable, you can certainly check if a given finite pattern has a preimage
08:57:56 <shachaf> i only barely understand any of this
08:58:21 <shachaf> why does compactness come up in figuring out exponential objects
09:00:17 <oklopol> well for example, you want S^\Z to have the obvious topology, so that mathematicians who are too lazy to check things can claim things without worrying about the consequences
09:00:37 <oklopol> and compact sets are the finite ones so that's where it comes from in that case
09:00:45 <oklopol> i mean compact subsets of \Z
09:01:02 <shachaf> well when you have a discrete space you can just have an open cover of singletons
09:01:13 <shachaf> so that's not v. interesting
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09:01:37 <shachaf> so why is compactness interesting
09:01:41 <oklopol> it's not very interesting, but the definition should give you the natural topology in at least this trivial case.
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09:02:26 <oklopol> (why is it the natural one? so that cellular automata are continuous ofc. maybe i'm a bit biased.)
09:03:05 <shachaf> ok well the exponential object is this compact-open topology thing
09:03:12 <shachaf> so it's obviously important
09:03:43 <oklopol> ohh right you meant that that's actually the category theoretical exponential object
09:03:55 <oklopol> that's a bit better a reason to trust it's the natural one
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09:04:07 <oklopol> well then just read the proof?
09:04:37 <shachaf> i don't even understand the definition v. well
09:05:22 <fizzie> Today's bulletin board quote: a proofreading service advertising with the slogan "the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit".
09:06:49 <oklopol> do you know what a subbase is?
09:07:23 <oklopol> basically, what is being stated is that what the topology can "see" is that a function maps all points of a particular compact set to a particular open set
09:07:39 <oklopol> just like the topology of the real numbers can "see" that a number is in an open interval
09:08:28 <oklopol> (the latter is a base, the one for compact-open is not one necessarily. it's a subbase, meaning that you get the base by allowing finitely many such observations.)
09:09:34 <shachaf> Yes, I know what a subbase is.
09:11:12 <oklopol> for instance for functions from reals to reals, you would say that two functions are close in the sense of the subbase if they map some compact set (say a closed interval) completely within an open set
09:12:05 <oklopol> what else? let's see if open and closed work here...
09:12:55 <oklopol> the problem with closed or open in this case (i guess) is that if the function is, say, the constant function, then you can take a neighborhood of functions that map a _all_ reals to something close to that constant
09:13:19 <shachaf> Maybe I mean to ask what the motivation for compactness is.
09:13:23 <oklopol> but you will not find such a neighborhood for more interesting functions
09:13:36 <shachaf> "open" sets correspond to observations you can make.
09:14:11 <oklopol> you mean like in general, why is compactness present in everything?
09:16:06 <oklopol> for example in the sequential case, my intuition of a compact space is one where if something happens an unbounded number of times, then it happens an infinite number of times. bounded = finite. compact sets are important because restricted to those, you have such an "access to infinity".
09:16:51 <oklopol> but this is all philosophy, there are probably some good mathematical reasons but i don't know any of them.
09:18:24 <shachaf> Let's see. If you add ±∞ to Z, "with the obvious topology", that makes it compact, right?
09:18:43 <shachaf> I guess the obvious topology here is where you can ask questions like "is it <x" and "is it >x"
09:19:31 <shachaf> Oh, that's homeomorphic to [0,1], which I know is compact.
09:21:37 <shachaf> What does "something happens" mean in your intuition?
09:23:00 <shachaf> Er, that would be R, not Z.
09:24:10 <shachaf> But still, any open cover must have an open set that contains ∞ (and the same for -∞), and then we only need to cover finitely many other points.
09:25:09 <oklopol> are you sure Z plus two points is homeomorphic to an uncountable interval?
09:25:47 <shachaf> No, I switched to thinking of R plus two points.
09:26:12 <shachaf> Anyway what does it mean for something to happen? Do you have an example?
09:27:07 <oklopol> shachaf: by something happens i just mean: suppose you have a compact (= same as closed) subset X of {0, 1}^Z. then if for all n, there exists a point where the first n coordinates are 0, then the point 0^Z is also in X.
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09:27:52 <oklopol> i say "happens", because i think of the shift action as acting on x, and i'm observing coordinate 0
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09:30:44 <oklopol> here, the set where the first n coordinates are all 0 is closed (and open too), and these sets have the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_intersection_property. one definition of compactness is that their intersection is then nonempty.
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09:31:06 <oklopol> the intersection contains points where all of these events happen, so that for any n, the first n coordinates are 0
09:32:00 <oklopol> let's say 0^N then, otherwise s/first n coordinates/centralmost 2n+1 coordinates/ or something
09:32:20 <shachaf> OK, N is simpler than Z anyway.
09:33:03 <oklopol> (the shift map is not injective if you use N, which sometimes means Z works out nicer)
09:33:10 <oklopol> 0^N is the point with only 0
09:33:23 <shachaf> A constant function f : N -> 2; f(n) = 0?
09:34:18 <shachaf> So if for any finite prefix of 0s, there's a stream that starts with that many 0s, then there's a stream of all 0s.
09:34:33 <shachaf> Like a limit of these finite-prefix things.
09:39:24 <oklopol> a set is closed if whenever something is not in that set, the topology can see why it's not there, that is, closed sets are ones where noninclusion can be "proved by the topology". so compactness gives you roughly that if for all n, some point does not have the nth order problem, then some problem has no problem at all.
09:39:37 <oklopol> not that that made much sense
09:39:50 <oklopol> *point has no problem at all
09:39:57 <shachaf> open sets correspond to yes-questions, closed sets correspond to no-questions
09:41:13 <oklopol> for a closed set C, the topology can prove "is x in C?" is false, when it is. (where prove means that it gives you one of its open sets, of which there can be quite many of course...)
09:41:51 <oklopol> in our case, we have a countable base for the topology, so the computational analog is a bit more direct
09:44:48 <shachaf> So when we say that [0,1] is compact, we can be asking questions like ">0.5", ">0.9", ..., and eventually reach 1 which is >anything we can ask about
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09:51:58 <oklopol> well that's a decreasing intersection of open sets / increasing union of closed sets, so err dunno. but let's at least note the following: [0,1) is not compact. since for every \epsilon > 0, there's a point in the closed set [1-\epsilon, 1), but there is none with this property for all \epsilon. so you have to have the 1.
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09:54:09 <oklopol> if P(\epsilon) = being in interval [1-\epsilon, 1), then some point satisfies P(1/n) for all n (the property "P(0)" is not disproved for all points at any finite level, so to speak), so there should be a point satisfying P(0) = \bigcap_n P(1/n). but there's none because 1 was not there.
09:55:26 <shachaf> oh, no wonder i had trouble making the thing i was saying make sense
09:56:18 <oklopol> yeah you gotta be careful with duality issues
09:56:30 <oklopol> they are the hardest thing in the world
09:59:30 <oklopol> btw an equivalent formulation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baire_category_theorem is that if you are in a sufficiently nice space (for example compact + hausdorff) and you take a countably infinite collection of closed sets whose union contains an open set, then one of those closed sets contains an open set too.
09:59:46 <oklopol> that's something useful for unions of clopens
10:01:06 <oklopol> for example, if for all n, you have a closed property C_n, and all points have one of those properties, that is, \forall x: \exists n: x \in C_n, then \bigcup_n C_n = the whole space, which is an open set, so one of the C_n contains an open set.
10:02:01 <oklopol> so even though the properties C_n were only provable in the case that the point is not there, for one of the properties C_n there exists some proof which, whenever it applies, proves that a point has property C_n
10:03:08 <oklopol> my favorite use of this is for (you guessed it) cellular automata: suppose that a cellular automaton f is "asymptotically nilpotent", that is, for every point x \in {0, 1}^Z you start with, eventually the central cell becomes 0 and stays that way
10:03:23 <oklopol> C_n = the set of points where after n steps, the central coordinate is 0, and never changes back.
10:04:00 <oklopol> and by assumption, their union is the whole space
10:04:17 <oklopol> thus, some C_n contains an open set
10:04:46 <oklopol> this means that there exists a word w such that whenever you see the word w in a configuration, you can be sure that the coordinate in the center of w turns 0 after n steps, and never changes back
10:05:25 <oklopol> (this is the first step in the proof that asymptotically nilpotent is equivalent to nilpotency, meaning f^n(x) = 0^Z for some n and all x)
10:06:36 <oklopol> so if all coordinates eventually become 0, then actually they become 0 after a finite number of steps, everywhere. (this exactly like what i claimed compactness gives you, but it doesn't work in this case.)
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12:15:53 <ion> http://bookriot.com/2011/11/30/when-used-books-attack-banana-edition/
12:24:38 <int-e> ion: well no thanks for sharing that one, it's going to haunt my dreams
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13:50:42 <int-e> interesting followup to yesterday's concrete incident; apparently they managed to clean it up before the concrete set. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/victoria-line-cement-flooding-fixed-workers-used-sugar-to-stop-spilled-concrete-from-setting-9082206.html
13:51:12 <boily> good concrete morning!
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15:47:44 <kmc> int-e: nice!
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16:47:19 <boily> quintopia: hungry! freezing too, but I'm Canadian :p
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16:48:25 <boily> quintopia: how's life down South?
16:48:33 <boily> int-e: how's life far East?
16:49:11 <quintopia> boily: it's somewhat cold here. but we have lower standards.
16:49:23 <quintopia> boily: i'm going to go outside and do things today
16:49:38 <metasepia> LOWI 241620Z 05004KT 9999 -SN FEW008 SCT040 BKN070 01/M01 Q1014 R08/190168 NOSIG
16:49:58 <int-e> boily: barely freezing.
16:49:59 <metasepia> KATL 241552Z 01008KT 10SM FEW200 M06/M20 A3058 RMK AO2 SLP370 T10561200
16:49:59 <boily> quintopia: I'm wearing my Friday Orange Shirt. Fridays are good!
16:50:26 <boily> (tonight I'm going outside to get a lift towards... Québec City!)
16:51:05 <quintopia> you could take a trip here as well
16:51:28 <boily> how do you pronounce “oOoOoOoO”?
16:51:48 <metasepia> CYUL 241600Z 24010KT 30SM FEW015 FEW240 M20/M26 A3027 RMK SF1CI1 SF TR CI TR SLP254
16:52:11 <b_jonas> boily: you pronounce it as two "o"s, the first one is long, the second one is doubled
16:53:09 * boily «oooo» «OOOO» «ōóôǫ»
16:53:13 <b_jonas> alternately, pronounce it like http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/AAAAAAAAA!
16:53:35 <boily> AAAAAAA: AA AAAAAA.
16:54:00 <b_jonas> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
16:59:32 * boily musically mapoles `^_^v
17:00:38 * boily scalefully fasoles int-e
17:02:24 <metasepia> EFHK 241650Z 27002KT 9999 FEW006 M19/M21 Q1035 NOSIG
17:02:32 <fizzie> boily: It's CONVERGING.
17:02:52 <boily> fizzie: the FINLANADA PROCESS IS HAPPENING.
17:03:08 <fizzie> Though the forecast for tomorrow was something p. warm, like M08.
17:03:36 <Taneb> My live esolang creation thing is scheduled!
17:03:37 <boily> M07 tomorrow in Montréal and Québec.
17:03:45 <boily> Taneb: DUNH DUNH DUNH ♪
17:04:11 <Taneb> boily, come to York on the evening of February the 20th
17:10:15 <boily> Taneb: an airplane roundtrip is about 2800$ (1500£). can you lend me that money?
17:10:44 <Taneb> I think shachaf can
17:11:08 <boily> shachaf: can you lend me about 3000 CAD? it's for a good cause.
17:14:34 -!- nooodl has joined.
17:14:50 <boily> hellooodl. do you have three thousand dollars?
17:23:23 <b_jonas> are you collecting for a charitable cause? saving endangered programming languages from dying out?
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17:37:01 <BullSherd> Wow, Google is making really strange things http://goo.gl/YEkaMA
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17:41:51 <`^_^v> im definitely going to download and run that file
17:46:53 <kmc> let us know how that goes for you
17:53:07 <quintopia> Taneb: whoa. you are going to come up with a new esolang without any preplans live on stage? and implement it right then? SOUNDS LIKE THE FUN
17:53:40 <Taneb> quintopia, I never said implement
17:53:54 <quintopia> Taneb: SOUNDS LIKE NOT QUITE THE FUN
17:54:26 <quintopia> live coding is awesome. live brainstorming sounds like a department meeting
17:54:41 <Taneb> quintopia, it's only a half-hour slot
17:55:13 <quintopia> Taneb: so what are you going to do with the other 29 minutes?
18:00:30 <quintopia> Taneb: if you stick to one-character easily-implemented commands, you could easily have a working implementation by the end of that half-hour. anyone who would come to your club would totally enjoy watching that. like watching other people play video games.
18:01:24 <Taneb> quintopia, I was thinking of doing something more interesting
18:02:02 <quintopia> Taneb: you're not allowed to have ideas in advance
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18:56:08 <boily> b_jonas: I'm collecting money to go and see Taneb doing esolangy stuff.
18:57:51 <Taneb> b_jonas, York on the 20th of February
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19:10:27 <DuckBlasGor> Wow, Google is making really strange things http://goo.gl/YEkaMA funny haha
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19:10:35 <kmc> don't click it
19:10:39 <kmc> it's malware or something
19:13:10 <boily> let me check in elinks...
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19:41:04 <metasepia> Pu-erh or Pu'er tea p'r chis a variety of fermented dark tea produced in Yunnan province, China.
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19:57:50 <BlerenMen> Google rocks lel http://q.gs/5SZO2
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19:58:15 <kmc> right then
19:58:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
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20:05:54 <Bike> #esoteric gets hacked, millions of brainfuck derivatives leaked, crashing the market
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20:18:20 <FireFly> That person managed to be less constructive than fungot is
20:18:20 <fungot> FireFly: okay i wasn't sure if it does, but it gets saved to disk as a fasl file per package?
20:18:36 <FireFly> fungot: noo, don't click the link!
20:18:36 <fungot> FireFly: fnord feels much better after that reboot took you a while ago ( the sort that plugs into a ps/ 2 port, though
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20:26:17 <boily> major hardware failure at our hosting provider...
20:51:36 <HackEgo> olist (941): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
20:59:05 <shachaf> kmc: whoa, mosh for chrome
21:04:42 <kmc> i heard about that
21:05:31 <kmc> <elly> http://developer.chrome.com/apps/usb.html The good news is that in 2013, device drivers will be written in a safe language and environment; the bad news is that they are Javascript and Chrome
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21:10:20 <boily> some day, we'll have Strong, Static Typing in every Home, Mathematical Correctness in every Heart, and a good understanding of when to use “its” versus “it's”.
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22:00:00 <kmc> `relcome ghijfcdkml
22:00:02 <HackEgo> ghijfcdkml: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:00:43 <ghijfcdkml> do you guys have a particular engine you like to build your languages in?
22:02:34 <`^_^v> i like to use rpg maker 2000
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22:30:28 <olsner> I build all my esolangs in diesel engines
22:35:57 <quintopia> i think everyone should know this forever, but i don't know how to add wisdom for you
22:36:40 <olsner> how can you not know !
22:36:52 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least.
22:37:30 <kmc> `run echo 'olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines' > wisdom/olsner
22:37:37 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines
22:38:50 <HackEgo> kmc ran the International Devious Code Contest of 2013
22:39:43 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
22:40:08 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
22:41:13 <HackEgo> quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator.
22:43:37 <kmc> shachaf: i'm glad I didn't because I think I would have needed to give the award to the NSA.
22:49:08 <nooodl> (looks up at ghijfcdkml logs) amazing
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22:51:49 <kmc> /nick ghijfcdkmc
22:52:42 <shachaf> KMC is a card sleeves manufacturer
22:52:42 <olsner> kmc: it was actually -kml on the end
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22:53:23 <shachaf> changing the l to a c is probably part of the joke
22:54:02 <kmc> olsner: yeah
22:54:23 <oerjan> the olists are coming fast and furious
22:54:28 <kmc> 2 fast 2 olist
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01:15:31 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines
01:15:45 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/olsner
01:17:21 <HackEgo> bash: r12: command not found
01:17:24 <HackEgo> bash: r14: command not found
01:17:33 <oerjan> how hard can it be to hit a 3 key
01:17:33 <Bike> oh no, you forgot to replace the end
01:18:26 <oerjan> `run r13 <wisdom/shachaf >wisdom/funpun
01:18:27 <shachaf> i have /hilight funpuns, by the way
01:18:38 <HackEgo> funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf.
01:19:30 <shachaf> oerjan: the trouble is that it doesn't adapt to changes in wisdom/shachaf
01:19:46 <shachaf> so imo change bin/? instead
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01:20:30 <oerjan> it takes only so much more of this before ? has to do exponential search.
01:23:24 <oerjan> i mean it would need to turn "gur shachas" into the same thing, logically.
01:24:24 <oerjan> no i haven't implemented an?/the removal in ?, for precisely the same reason.
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01:24:43 <oerjan> (it's in `learn though.)
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01:25:43 <oerjan> and what if someone tries fffsfsfsfsfsffs which logically should turn into the empty string, WHAT THEN
01:27:16 <oerjan> of course if you have general rot-n + s-removal, we can collapse most of wisdom.
01:28:34 <oerjan> `learn madness lies thataway.
01:29:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/madness: No such file or directory
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01:30:07 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/madnes{,s}
01:30:54 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
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03:25:12 <lightquake> are there any esolangs where every sequence of input bytes is a valid program? discounting ones like Whitespace that just ignore the majority of bytes
03:25:34 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jot ?
03:25:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT too, I suppose
03:26:17 <elliott> admittedly, not as interesting as you might hope for for such a thing :/
03:27:27 <lightquake> well, you could make a language Jot' where a Jot' program is interpreted by converting the bytes to bits and then removing '10*' from the end
03:28:23 <elliott> ...or even just require the number of bits to be divisible by eight...
03:28:36 <elliott> (probably still TC, I imagine, you should be able to construct some appropriate padding...)
03:29:02 <elliott> I seem to remember reading about more interesting languages like this? but I can't remember their names or anything
03:29:35 <elliott> it would be kind of cute to have something that was more like a "regular" language with actual syntactical structure, but that had an overzealous enough error-correction mechanism that any random garbage did something.
03:29:57 <elliott> though you'd need it to be pretty weird to have interesting results from that, I guess.
03:30:00 <lightquake> (the thing that inspired this question was a post I read somewhere saying "Lisp has no syntax")
03:30:05 <elliott> lightquake: do machine codes of various kinds count?
03:30:17 <elliott> arguably nothing is "invalid" there, just some things cause the machine to triple fault or whatever.
03:30:37 <Bike> lisp has no syntax <-- just ignore this
03:30:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14164
03:30:45 <Bike> anyway what about brainfuck (with bytes instad of characters)
03:30:47 <HackEgo> lightquake: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:30:59 <elliott> aww, who made relcome do per-word rainbows?
03:31:00 <shachaf> Bike: presumably it has the same issue as whitespace
03:31:04 <Bike> i guess you might... yeah
03:31:10 <elliott> it was so much prettier... uglier?... before
03:31:22 <shachaf> Didn't mauke say something along the lines of everything is a valid ploki program?
03:31:31 <shachaf> 2013-12-22.txt:06:49:05: <mauke> kmc: there is some documentation at http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/ploki/ploki-0.6.5.1/doc/
03:31:34 <shachaf> 2013-12-22.txt:06:49:16: <mauke> but like the rest of ploki, it's part of the practical joke
03:31:37 <shachaf> 2013-12-22.txt:06:50:16: <mauke> e.g. it's not obvious from the description of the syntax that ploki has literally no syntax errors
03:31:47 <shachaf> (site is down, like mauke)
03:32:22 <elliott> well, you can have kinds of errors other than syntax, of course
03:32:27 <elliott> they're just easier to avoid
03:32:37 <shachaf> ( http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/5015df0b9872/src/ploki/doc to the rescue)
03:33:00 <kmc> i prefer per-word rainbows
03:33:07 <kmc> but i think i was too lazy to make that change myself
03:33:45 <elliott> lightquake: one downside of trying to make a language like this is that there's a lot of non-printable bytes
03:33:51 <elliott> but generally people like programs to be textual
03:34:21 <elliott> so if it's a instruction-per-byte thing (kind of boring, but), either you add a bunch of unnecessary fluff in the non-printable bytes, or humans aren't really going to enjoy writing programs
03:35:03 <shachaf> Jot where you look at the last bit of every byte.
03:35:57 <elliott> well, that's ignoring the majority of bits
03:35:58 <kmc> most processor architectures assign a meaning to every byte sequence
03:36:03 <elliott> though lightquake did say bytes, admittedly >_>
03:36:14 <shachaf> The original question was 19:11 <lightquake> is there an esolang where every sequence of characters/bytes (pick one) is a valid program?
03:36:14 <kmc> granted many of them will mean "jump to the invalid instruction interrupt handler" but that's still well-defined
03:36:35 <shachaf> But apparently the answer of "characters using a two-character alphabet" isn't good enough.
03:37:16 <elliott> well, the original question I saw was 03:25:12 <lightquake> are there any esolangs where every sequence of input bytes is a valid program? discounting ones like Whitespace that just ignore the majority of bytes
03:38:04 <lightquake> right, the original original was over in #haskell-blah
03:38:37 <elliott> thankfully my IRC client no longer shows me messages from #haskell-blah :)
03:38:41 <shachaf> one might ask why i'm still in #haskell-blah
03:38:51 <shachaf> it's more bearable nowadays with my 66-nick /ignore list
03:38:58 <shachaf> but at one point you might ask what the point is
03:39:17 <elliott> one might question why #esoteric continues to be #shachaf-complaining-about-#haskell...
03:39:30 <elliott> lightquake: anyway, I think this question is maybe more interesting in terms of non-esolangs
03:39:41 <elliott> since it does appear in the wild at least arguably for things like machine code
03:40:01 <elliott> I ran /dev/urandom as a http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher program a bunch of times a while ago
03:40:02 <ion> Unintentional joke accent http://www.ted.com/talks/yves_morieux_as_work_gets_more_complex_6_rules_to_simplify.html
03:40:10 <elliott> sometimes there were vaguely interesting results
03:40:32 <ion> I have never felt the need to /ignore someone on #haskell*
03:44:38 <ion> What were the vaguely interesting results like?
03:46:35 <ion> Firefighters meet Snoop Dogg http://i.imgur.com/b3T3i3a.png
03:46:47 <Bike> started getting misspelled extracts from the pentagon papers
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03:55:08 <madbr> ion : ahahahahahaha
04:07:33 <lightquake> ion: reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvWEcfTzJts
04:09:00 <ion> lightquake: :-)
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04:15:57 <elliott> "Snoop Dogg was nabbed by a real "Snoop Dogg"" adorable
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04:18:18 <oerjan> all dogs are adorable, until they kill you. ok maybe not those in that competition.
04:19:39 <kmc> "Firefighters meet Snoop Dogg after alarm goes off in rapper's smoke-filled Melbourne hotel room"
04:19:46 <kmc> oh you jusnt said that
04:19:55 <kmc> 'A spokeswoman for the Metropolitan Fire Brigade says "smoke from an unidentified source" triggered the alarm in Snoop Dogg's room.'
04:20:20 <kmc> also i thought he was named snoop lion now
04:21:01 <oerjan> kmc: i wondered about that last time, apparently he varies it by genre or something
04:21:18 <Bike> yeah lion is reggae or something right
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05:51:57 <shachaf> kmc: with key = 'CBCdemonstration', iv = "\30063G\364`=\267\332\027\032$\252\266_V", plaintext = "HDR!JUNKNOW(16)!\371HY)m\245\016\322\226\303\206K\n\230\275\eNOP!DATANOW(12)!more text...END!"
05:52:17 <shachaf> enc_cbc(key, iv, plaintext) = "HDR!DATANOW(12)!hello there.END!\343\317/\214\003)\320\371\000\001r\345\200\035.!\207\335\356\b\267?]%k\315\357\016\244\366\034m"
05:52:36 <oerjan> now that's just crazy talk.
05:53:19 <shachaf> you can reproducei guess if you had padding you'd need to do a little more work but you can just use junk
05:55:18 <shachaf> kmc: http://slbkbs.org/im.rb
06:23:59 <zzo38> Is this consider to be a OK kind of C code if "enc_rle" is a global variable? if(enc_rle[i].data[0] && !enc_rle[rc].data[strlen(enc_rle[i].data)]) rc=i;
06:25:30 <madbr> in c++ you could namespace it to limit the damage
06:26:12 <zzo38> madbr: What damage, sorry I do not understand?
06:26:20 <madbr> well, namespace pollution
06:26:24 <zzo38> (It is a "static" global variable, though)
06:27:22 <zzo38> I am trying to compare the lengths of two strings that are stored in global variables (which are only ever written once)
06:28:49 <madbr> as long as you don't ever need two instances of that component you're fine I guess
06:29:18 <madbr> I guess the strings aren't std::string's either right? :D
06:29:30 <zzo38> madbr: It isn't; it is a C code, not C++.
06:30:20 <zzo38> Also, it is a standalone program.
06:32:38 <zzo38> I don't program in C++.
06:34:29 <zzo38> Neither C nor C++ nor any other programming language I know of supports the kind of +|^ operator that I have made up once, and often wanted to use.
06:34:47 <Bike> what is it and why does it have such a dumb name
06:36:13 <fizzie> I think it's the one that's equivalent to +, | or ^ when there are no bits that are 1 in both operands, and undefined otherwise. The point being that the implementation can pick the most efficient way.
06:36:34 <zzo38> It means that if x&y==0 then x+|^y==x+y, otherwise x+|^y is undefined.
06:37:10 <fizzie> +|^ is kind of a mouthful.
06:37:21 <shachaf> C does have that operator.
06:38:39 <fizzie> Oh no, x+y is undefined if (x&y) != 0? All my code is so wrong!
06:39:28 <zzo38> fizzie: It isn't, but that is what the +|^ operator is for, so that it is.
06:40:23 <fizzie> Ah, but Mr. Chaf just said that's the same as +.
06:41:28 <shachaf> i mean that if you #define +|^ + it would behave exactly like zzo38's operator
06:41:47 <fizzie> shachaf: If you write x+y and the compiler can't prove (x&y) == 0, which sounds p. likely, it can't replace it with an or operator even if that would be faster.
06:41:51 <zzo38> But if (a&b)==0 then also a+b==(a|b)
06:41:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Won't that be a syntax error though?
06:46:51 <Sgeo> oh god i just had a horrible thought xml as a racket language
06:47:01 <Sgeo> I'm sure if Racket was more popular this would be a thing
06:47:17 <Sgeo> Which... for config files, it's still better than reading at runtime, but... still. eww
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07:34:47 <Sgeo> Are SNAP-qualified foods healthier than the average food?
07:35:04 <Sgeo> Wondering if that would be a good personal guideline on eating better
07:39:30 <kmc> interesting question
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07:40:23 <kmc> I would expect it to be politicized to hell
07:41:10 <kmc> politicans love to micromanage the poor because (being rich themselves) they're convinced that poorness is caused by moral failure that can only be solved by the guiding hand of the rich
07:41:21 <kmc> also because the ketchup lobby will spend big bucks to get ketchup on the list
07:41:49 <kmc> but I have zero knowledge of how the decisions are actually made
07:42:51 <kmc> I think you would be better off coming up with some basic nutritional goals (e.g. total calories, % from protein, % from fat) and looking at the labels that exist on every food
07:44:28 <zzo38> Once I played some computer game that had this mentioned: "I am 40. I am nothing. A snake makes this sound. And I drink this at 4:00." I managed to solve it but as far as I can tell it is probably supposed to say 50, not 40.
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07:45:01 <kmc> what? what is the solution?
07:46:21 <zzo38> Can you not figure it out? It isn't really so difficult, although I was confused by the 40 at first.
07:46:27 <kmc> something something hiss tea
07:47:02 <kmc> do snakes make other sounds? some of them rattle but not typical snakes
07:48:12 <zzo38> I don't know, but that isn't the point.
07:49:46 <kmc> what is the point?
07:50:02 <kmc> @snake_ebooks
07:55:22 <Bike> Sgeo: just a heads up, if you start a trend of better-off people "eating like the poor" i will hurt you.
07:56:33 <Bike> as for the actual question i half-remember that there are the usual dumb restrictions you get with these things
07:56:47 <Bike> you know, like red apples are ok but granny apples aren't for no reason, that kinda crap
07:57:57 <Bike> http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligible-food-items enjoying theh pumpkin note??
07:58:13 <Bike> "Items such as birthday and other special occasion cakes are eligible for purchase with SNAP benefits as long as the value of non-edible decorations does not exceed 50 percent of the purchase price of the cake."
07:58:51 <kmc> Bike: the worst is when rich people try to "eat for $1 a day" and talk about how easy it is (you know, as long as you can buy $100 of ingredients in bulk and have a well equipped kitchen and copious free time to cook and shop around)
07:59:31 <kmc> Bike: ah I see they closed the "birthday cake with a Playstation centerpiece" loophole
07:59:34 <Bike> couple months? years? back this congressman bought (had a staffer buy) snap stuff and was like WELL SHIT GUESS WE CAN CUT EVEN MORE
07:59:46 <Bike> had not been that angry at a person in a long time
08:00:18 <kmc> it's amazing that people with plenty of money to spare think that people who barely scrape by every day are the ones who are bad at managing money
08:00:51 <kmc> of course when banks are bad at managing money to the tune of billions, we gotta help them out
08:01:52 <Bike> i've seen too many daily show sketches about that to even care any more, i just kind of smolder
08:02:07 <Bike> napalm that fucking orchard
08:04:28 <kmc> https://medium.com/quinn-norton/f3db7e13e6e3
08:04:52 <kmc> "You're never going to save your way out of being poor unless you're willing to walk away from family and loved ones and let them suffer and sometimes die."
08:05:09 <Bike> man i know people who did that and are still fucked
08:05:37 <Bike> still good though. does "some scottish sci-fi authors" mean stross or what
08:05:49 <kmc> not sure who else
08:05:54 <Bike> i... don't think i can name any other scottish sci-fi authors
08:06:16 <kmc> well "money is a sign of poverty" is an iain banks quote i believe
08:10:48 <shachaf> which iain banks book should i read, again
08:11:10 <kmc> my secret shame is that I've not read any of them
08:14:51 <shachaf> what is the difference between a secret shame and a nonsecret shame
08:15:04 <shachaf> @ask phantom_hoover which iain banks book should i read, again
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08:19:54 <oerjan> kmc: btw zzo38's puzzle _is_ easy (with 50 instead of 40) hth
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08:24:32 <shachaf> oerjan: are you sure it's easy
08:25:07 <shachaf> if it's easy then why don't i know the answer by now
08:25:43 <oerjan> it's because you're failing the turing test hth
08:26:21 <shachaf> if something isn't easy for computers then it's not truly easy
08:26:45 <oerjan> that's just what a computer would say.
08:58:34 <shachaf> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2014/01/todays-outage-for-several-google.html
09:15:21 <Sgeo> I should try defining $setter in Kernel, where ($setter foo) is a function that will mutate foo
09:18:08 <Sgeo> ($define! ($vau (sym) env ($lambda (new) (eval (list $set! env sym new) (get-current-environment)))))
09:18:10 <Sgeo> Not tested yet
09:19:33 <Sgeo> ($define! $setter ($vau (sym) env ($lambda (new) (eval (list $set! env sym new) (get-current-environment)))))
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09:26:17 <Sgeo> new can get double-evaluated
09:26:40 <Bike> no i mean the whole thing. what does setting a variable outside of an environment even mean.
09:28:13 <Bike> ($vau (sym env) dyn ($let ((env (eval env dyn))) ($lambda (val) (eval (list $set! env sym val) (make-environment))))) or some shit like that
09:30:12 <Bike> https://24.media.tumblr.com/f558a070cf4e473ee3053f39b0974a27/tumblr_mzy672mzBK1s71q1zo1_500.png do not disengage
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11:10:56 <Taneb> Last night I had a dream that someone wrote such bad Haskell code he accidentally summoned the Great Old Ones and I had to fix the Haskell code and save the day
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12:06:05 <FreeFull> Taneb: What did the code look like?
12:10:39 <FreeFull> Probably was written in EBCDIC
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15:06:04 <Vorpal> I am disappointed. WolframAlpha doesn't know the volume of a CF card. Nor a SD or MicroSD card.
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15:18:10 <int-e> wikipedia lists dimensions, at least
15:18:22 <int-e> (I only looked at the CF card page)
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15:36:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: It does know about SD and MicroSD cards.
15:36:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you type in "microsd volume", the input interpretation is "SD card form factors", and the result is a table for SD, miniSD and microSD.
15:36:47 <fizzie> Containing length, width, thickness, area, volume, weight and number of pins.
15:37:22 <fizzie> I haven't figured out the right magic words for a CF card, though. If there are any.
15:38:28 <fizzie> It probably doesn't "properly" know the volume of one kind of card, though, if you wanted to e.g. divide something by it. (I've used the Wikipedia numbers for that, earlier.)
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16:29:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? I tried "volume of microsd"
16:30:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wanted to figure out how much storage you would be able to fit into a SSD by filling it with 64 GB MicroSD
16:39:04 <fizzie> (Heh, "CF card form factor" is interpreted as a comparison of three publicly traded companies, "CF Industries (CF)", "Cardio3 Biosciences (CARD)" and "FormFactor (FORM)".
16:41:33 <int-e> I love smart software.
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16:51:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, the answer btw is ~33.07 TB I think
16:55:32 <int-e> Message in a bottle, hmm.
16:56:51 <kmc> are we playing "how much data can I fit up my nose"?
16:57:26 <kmc> `addquote <Taneb> Last night I had a dream that someone wrote such bad Haskell code he accidentally summoned the Great Old Ones and I had to fix the Haskell code and save the day
16:57:32 <HackEgo> 1163) <Taneb> Last night I had a dream that someone wrote such bad Haskell code he accidentally summoned the Great Old Ones and I had to fix the Haskell code and save the day
16:58:03 <int-e> http://news.co.cr/28000-rubber-ducks-teach-us-about-our-ocean-systems/10534/ -- I wonder what could be done if each of them had a couple of micro SD cards.
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17:03:05 <zzo38> Added in "dream.txt" now.
17:03:13 <coppro> Taneb: because fising the code made the Great Old Ones go away?
17:03:41 <kmc> fisting the code??
17:03:51 <oerjan> he probably just renamed the HasTur data type.
17:05:55 <zzo38> It is case-sensitive, and the name is specified in ASCII, so I won't expect that part of it at least to be a problem unless conflicting with other libraries, and in such a case there probably is badly written code somewhere in the system anyways.
17:06:39 <int-e> Taneb: hint: never call unsafeAl'whya_al_Cthulhu_fhatagan_K'kili'far_al_is_ar'arkas_fal_dep'wa
17:06:46 <zzo38> Or do you prefer fisting the code?
17:07:07 <zzo38> Rather than fixing it?
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17:07:31 <oerjan> zzo38: are you not familiar with the Hastur meme
17:07:52 <zzo38> oerjan: But you wrote HasTur, not Hastur, and since it is case-sensitive it is OK.
17:08:19 <luser0> Is this the Eastern States Standard Oil programming room?
17:08:21 <coppro> also, it annoys me when people use 'Cthulhu ftahgn' in inappropriate contexts
17:08:41 <oerjan> i am not sure if hastur cares about capitalization.
17:08:43 <Taneb> luser0, no that's #essoteric on irc.dal.net
17:09:16 <oerjan> coppro: well the idea is that it is an elder god so powerful that it knows when someone refers to its name... and may decide to show up.
17:09:50 <luser0> what tags are needed for fhagn outs?
17:09:55 <oerjan> although i vaguely recall it may be a d&d thing rather than an actual cthulhu mythos thing
17:10:01 <coppro> it doesn't have a page on knowyourmeme
17:10:02 <int-e> coppro: sorry. the main point was that it is a valid Haskell identifier.
17:10:13 <oerjan> coppro: it's too old to have a page there
17:10:22 <Taneb> zzo38, where is dreams.txt?
17:10:37 <HackEgo> bash: locate: command not found
17:10:40 <luser0> the old ones were before Haskell, I do not believe it; prove it
17:10:47 <zzo38> Taneb: No, it is called "dream.txt"
17:10:57 <Taneb> zzo38, okay, but where can I find it?
17:11:10 <zzo38> Taneb: http://zzo38computer.org/misc/weird_dream/dream.txt
17:11:12 <Taneb> Is it publicly available?
17:11:18 <oerjan> luser0: are you secretly hastur showing up because we talk about you?
17:11:30 <coppro> int-e: I just get annoyed at people who think fhtagn means 'rises' or 'wakes' or something
17:11:36 <luser0> no, I am a perl program that smells like a cow
17:13:37 <int-e> luser0: what's your state on this scale: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cow ?
17:14:10 <luser0> is that 0-3; i must be about a five
17:16:06 <luser0> when you are in the quick sand so deep just wait for the barrels to rise
17:17:39 <luser0> and so, plenty of overhead
17:19:32 <oerjan> coppro: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?140676-Summoning-Hastur has a discussion
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17:39:54 <zzo38> I have seen probably more than one different MIME type used for C source codes.
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19:51:06 <Sgeo> I think the Racket devs think having a cohesive community that can talk to each other can solve all problems. Which sounds great until the community gets larger
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20:12:48 <zzo38> Can you play Sirlin's Puzzle Strike and Yomi games?
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20:19:11 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/8115704/The-Iowa-GOP-takes-national-partys-outreach-efforts-to-grassroots-level-by-posting-a-thigh-slappingly-hi-larious-is-someone-a-racist-flowchart-on-its-Facebook-page
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20:35:59 <fizzie> V. fancy, an Android tablet internetted just like that, out of the box, when I plugged it to wired Ethernet (via a cheapo USB Ethernet dongle and an USB OTG cable).
20:36:29 <fizzie> Though I could find no place in the menus where it'd have said any details about the network connection was using.
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21:27:22 <kmc> Sgeo: just technical problems or does that include community problems too
21:28:25 <kmc> fizzie: sometimes things work just because they forgot to remove the parts that make them work
21:28:45 <kmc> my friend says USB keyboards work on iOS for similar reasons
21:28:50 <kmc> Darwin supports them and nobody bothered removing it
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21:43:42 <Sgeo> kmc: I'm thinking specifically of packages with conflicting module names
21:44:10 <Sgeo> I'd call that a primarily technical problem
21:50:17 <Sgeo> o.O Chicken Scheme once had an SRFI 72 egg but no longer does
21:59:46 <Sgeo> I wonder if racket-langs is more appropriate than racket-lang
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22:10:10 <Sgeo> Racket 5.92 was released
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22:31:00 <fizzie> The USB dongle actually mentions Android on the list of things-it-works-on, now that I look at the packaging.
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23:13:49 <fizzie> I don't a understand, but cpufreq frequency scaling has stopped a-working. The "ondemand" governor seems to no longer exist, and the "conservative" one just doesn't appear in the cpufreq-info or /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_governors lists, even after manully modprobing it; the module loads, but does nothing.
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23:24:37 <fizzie> Also cpufreq-info et al. are saying it's using the "powersave" governor, but the speed is still stuck at the highest possible.
23:27:20 <fizzie> Apparently something has switched from acpi_cpufreq to intel_pstate, which is so different.
23:29:09 <fizzie> https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58801 it's something vaguely like that.
23:42:14 <zzo38> Maybe you need to set the minimum speed setting then?
23:42:58 <fizzie> The minimum was already set to the hardware minimum.
23:43:22 <fizzie> I guess it's just doing what it wants to do.
00:02:40 <zzo38> Maybe there is a problem in the hardware?
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00:03:29 <fizzie> It worked just fine before some upgrades.
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00:05:42 <fizzie> It would more or less appear that intel_pstate believes it's better to run at high clock speeds even when mostly idle, since then the % spent in "awake" power-saving states is lower. I guess it might even be right.
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00:10:29 <fizzie> There's a 9 days old [[ Add perf trace event "power:pstate_sample" to report driver state to aid in diagnosing issues reported against intel_pstate. ]] commit, so maybe other people have been puzzled too.
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00:16:50 <fizzie> (Purely anecdotally, despite all the fine words about how the new stuff's better, the fans seem to be doing more work when idle unless I manually ask for a slower maximum speed.)
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02:08:58 <Sgeo> Pogo thinks "you'll c"atch is bad
02:09:13 <Sgeo> I don't get it
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02:12:55 <kmc> i concur with Bike
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02:14:05 <Sgeo> Bad word filter hates that I said you'll catch
02:14:08 <Sgeo> And I have no idea why
02:14:29 <kmc> try removing characters until it's allowed?
02:15:37 <Sgeo> Tried it. My gf expressed concern for my health
02:17:52 <kmc> you sound like you're asleep??
02:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, iain (m.) banks reading order: player of games, use of weapons, the state of the art, excession, consider phlebas, look to windward
02:19:35 <Sgeo> Do I seriously sound that incoherent?
02:19:48 <Sgeo> My gf is playing against me on a game websit
02:20:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (apart from the first two this is dictated by my own arbitrary whims)
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02:30:29 <kmc> fungot: do you understand Sgeo?
02:30:29 <fungot> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/ fnord funktio solving a 3x3x3 rubiks cube one-handed in 21 seconds on a fnord
02:30:42 <kmc> fungot: is a fnord like a fjord
02:30:43 <fungot> kmc: hrm this seems much earlier, about your naming decision about your accumulation protocol?), and there's cgi scripts, and this channel does not need a fully general message queue if you don't mind a slow, broken discussion, ask away.
02:31:07 -!- kmc has set topic: This channel does not need a fully general message queue if you don't mind a slow, broken discussion | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
02:31:36 <Sgeo> I said "You'll catch up" to my gf on a game site. The swear filter caught "You'll c". I mention it here, then try your recommendation to try removing characters. Gf asks if I'm feeling all right. I mention it here, everyone here asks if I'm feeling all right.
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02:36:48 <Phantom_Hoover> currently my money's on kmc's theory that you're sleepircing
02:37:18 <Sgeo> I'm tired, but pretty sure I'm awake
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02:38:39 <quintopia> who are you all talking to? who is this Sgeo?
02:39:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, perhaps you are instead a moth who dreams he is awake
02:40:08 <quintopia> you guys are just having a laugh at my expense huh
02:40:22 <quintopia> making up some person to make me think i'm crazy
02:40:32 <quintopia> i checked my ignore list. there's no Sgeo.
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03:45:02 <zzo38> Do you know the mana symbols are a bit different in the really old Magic: the Gathering cards?
03:48:27 <kmc> how do they look?
03:51:29 <zzo38> Somewhat different; to explain you should look at them. Since I have a book of them, I can see the difference.
03:52:23 <zzo38> This book is up to 1996.
04:27:37 <Sgeo> kmc: zzo38: https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/719
04:30:43 <Sgeo> Says only the white mana symbol
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04:34:46 <Sgeo> "107.2 If anything needs to use a number that can't be determined, either as a result or in a calculation, it uses 0 instead."
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04:34:59 <Sgeo> What if you can't determine whether or not it can be determined?
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04:36:56 <Sgeo> Phyrexian mana symbols must suck for the color-blind :(
04:37:12 <Sgeo> Although I guess the cards usually have the colored mana printed on them?
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04:39:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: All of the mana symbols were different in the really old cards actually, but not much different from the modern game, just a little bit.
04:39:59 <Sgeo> What's the oldest card?
04:40:07 <Sgeo> I'll see if it's in Gatherer or magiccards
04:40:48 <zzo38> The Alpha set is the oldest one
04:41:54 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/scans/en/al/55.jpg
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04:44:40 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/al/en/285.html http://magiccards.info/al/en/281.html http://magiccards.info/al/en/290.html http://magiccards.info/al/en/279.html http://magiccards.info/al/en/283.html
04:44:46 <Sgeo> kmc: alpha lands
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04:56:50 <Sgeo> http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom%2Ffeature%2F21 about bands with other
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05:12:54 <shachaf> nooodl: the way to get quotes is @quote REGEXP
05:13:11 <shachaf> not pinging the person who said them to say them again
05:13:27 <shachaf> oh, but the name isn't part of the regexp :'(
05:14:08 <shachaf> oh no, nooodl shachaf is on the loose
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05:24:14 <Sgeo> http://youtu.be/0AK8yg5s2ps
05:33:57 <kmc> more like snoreway
05:35:54 <kmc> Sgeo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9pioJWTk0&t=1m20s
05:36:19 <Sgeo> wtf is that weird sound
05:36:41 <kmc> it's the sound of your mind twisting into a möbius strip of pure energy
05:37:06 <kmc> i always wondered why the tremendously boring and shitty fireworks called "snake" existed but it turns out they're an attempt to make a nontoxic version of this awesome one
05:37:28 <Sgeo> Jack and the magic beanstalk: Power + flames
05:38:38 <Sgeo> Watching a video of those fireworks... why is a kid there?
05:39:37 <Sgeo> Um. Ok. Apparently I don't know what fireworks are
05:39:47 <Sgeo> I thought you light them up and they go flying and boom
05:39:57 <Sgeo> I guess the term is more general than that
05:40:48 <kmc> roman candles are fun
05:41:05 <kmc> we used to have roman candle fights in the courtyard at school
05:42:01 <quintopia> i enjoyed those snake things as a kid
05:42:09 <Sgeo> I never touched fireworks
05:42:11 <kmc> or the scaled up version where we drove out to the desert and two people would drive their cars doing naval manœuvres while their passengers shot roman candles out the windows at the other car
05:42:23 <Sgeo> Left that to professionals... and neighbors down the street
05:42:28 <shachaf> did you see http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean.html
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06:10:18 <kmc> is it good
06:10:55 <kmc> ted talks considered harmful
06:20:11 <Sgeo> "What is a snow mana in Magic The Gathering" "In Magic The Gathering, Snow: Mana Mystery is a documentary and in insightful peek into the world of Magic mana symbols. - See more at: http://www.chacha.com/question/what-is-a-snow-mana-in-magic-the-gathering#sthash.SDtbVGVc.dpuf"
06:20:26 <Sgeo> Oh hey, ChaCha helpfully linked itself while I was making fun of it
06:20:46 <Sgeo> Seems to be quoted directly from http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr237
06:20:50 <shachaf> or not. my kmc predictor is imperfect :'(
06:21:52 <Bike> does this involve The Latest Neuro Science Re Search
06:28:27 <pikhq> Goofy. Would you like to know what snow mana is though?
06:29:19 <shachaf> why are ted talks considered harmful
06:29:55 <pikhq> The presenters are selected by wealth, not necessarily valuable insight?
06:30:19 <Bike> well the last ted talk i saw was someone talking about how her aneurysm gave her hallucinatory insight into the True Oneness Of Humankind
06:31:51 <Sgeo> Half a White Mana: And then I'm like "At least I didn't need no plastic surgery during Ice Age."
06:31:51 <Sgeo> Half a Red Mana: You should have seen White's face. It was awesome.
06:41:53 <zzo38> Do you know how to make up a chess variant based on (not written in) the INTERCAL programming language?
06:42:03 <zzo38> Or a chess variant involving category theory somehow?
06:42:59 <shachaf> zzo38: No. Do you know how?
06:44:02 <zzo38> Maybe I should learn, but I don't know; maybe some other people have some idea too, it is possible to work together on some ideas.
06:50:07 <kmc> shachaf: i don't know about ted talks really
06:50:12 <kmc> i just read http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/30/we-need-to-talk-about-ted which considers them harmful
06:50:17 <kmc> i don't know if i really agree with this article
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06:52:27 <pikhq> Eh, just the criteria used for TED talk presenters is damning enough.
06:52:52 <Sgeo> There's a Magic card whose Flavor text should get errata
06:54:10 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=9757
06:54:13 <pikhq> "Invitees from the owner, who can afford to pay $6000 for this event."
06:55:43 <pikhq> Unsurprisingly this selects pretty much entirely for being upper class.
06:56:35 <oerjan> has anyone ever paid for making a talk about how awful TED is?
06:56:36 <pikhq> Aaand as we all know, class is at best loosely correlated with intellectual feats.
06:56:54 <pikhq> oerjan: Could be, but the issue is, you have to be invited to TED. :)
06:57:51 <shachaf> there is http://www.ted.com/talks/lies_damned_lies_and_statistics_about_tedtalks.html
07:03:20 <elliott> as always, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFhR1fKWG0
07:04:23 <shachaf> oh, i thought that would be vortex math
07:06:42 <pikhq> TEDx is almost as bad, though at least there's much less of an actively stupid selection criteria.
07:06:49 <pikhq> Instead, you just get a lack thereof.
07:10:38 <elliott> 2070 paradigm shift is about as good as vortex math
07:11:29 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/extra/token/coldsnap/marit-lage.html needs trample
07:12:21 <pikhq> It would be quite insane with trample, yes.
07:12:31 <pikhq> Pity they didn't print banding in Coldsnap.
07:12:39 <pikhq> It was the one time they could justify it, too.
07:14:35 <Sgeo> "Tokens AND counters! It MUST combo with Doubling Season!
07:15:15 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=121155
07:15:34 <Sgeo> Is Dark Depths the only thing that creates Marit Lage tokens?
07:18:00 <Sgeo> Dark Depths seems like the thing that these days would go on a Planeswalker
07:18:24 <Sgeo> Although surely not with that flavor
07:24:47 <Sgeo> "What a horrible land! Gives NO mana, is legendary, AND gives your opponents snow-covered landwalk AND legendary landwalk! Plus, you have to pay 30 mana to get Marit Lage out! I prefer stuff like Wood Elemental and Chimney Imp!"
07:26:48 <pikhq> Yeah, but Coldsnap was intentionally archaic.
07:28:58 * Sgeo reads http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/343
07:31:04 <Sgeo> Are the Magic storylines any good, as stories separate from the game?
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07:37:01 <shachaf> i guess you could use vorel of the hull clade against it
07:37:16 <shachaf> are there other things that let you double the jams on a land
07:39:07 <shachaf> not that that would help with eg Vampire Hexmage
07:39:37 <kmc> shachaf: do you do M:tG things
07:40:54 <shachaf> i have a bunch of coworkers who are v. into it
07:41:06 <shachaf> i don't know whether i will continue or stop
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07:45:40 <Sgeo> A CLer in #racket was confused about something and it turned out to be a misunderstanding of Lisp-1
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07:45:51 <Sgeo> But now I'm wondering what it would look like if Kernel was a Lisp-2
07:45:57 <Sgeo> At least for operatives
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10:36:31 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/path.html <- 2D esolang turned into a game :)
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12:13:41 <FreeFull> http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/ This game is somewhat fun
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13:23:44 <Taneb> FreeFull, I am not very good at it
13:26:29 <FreeFull> Taneb: It does require some thinking
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14:09:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, you seem to know lots of stuff in general about obscure file format conversion. So here is a conundrum for you: How to convert *.psf (extracted music from PS1) to something more widely playable. I had to struggle to even find a player for psf.
14:10:43 <Vorpal> audacious can play it btw
14:15:57 <Vorpal> Huh, this format must be tracker based, the entire soundtrack is like 4 MB
14:25:32 <FreeFull> Vorpal: You can take the output from a player, record it and convert that to some format
14:30:42 <Vorpal> FreeFull, sounds annoying though
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15:20:10 <fizzie> A player with a native file output driver might help. Many have those.
15:26:04 <int-e> good my-vacuum-cleaner-ate-my-SD-card afternoon!
15:26:21 <int-e> (at least it wasn't a micro SD)
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15:30:25 <Gregor> Vorpal: audacious ITSELF has a file output driver that'll write out FLAC.
15:34:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh nice. Didn't know that. I just installed audacious today.
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17:25:04 <oerjan> must be awkward sleeping with your feet dangling like that
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17:26:23 <quintopia> i'm sorry i didn't understand any of that for one cannot think straight when one is asleep
17:28:02 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
17:29:26 * oerjan benekter kategorisk alle rykter om at han er norsk.
17:29:46 <quintopia> i'll take a piece of a nobel prize. is anyone offering?
17:29:58 <oerjan> sorry, i'm not on the committee.
17:30:21 <quintopia> can you translate that gibberish to normal language please
17:30:45 <oerjan> the gibberish clearly explains why i cannot.
17:30:49 <FireFly> sorry, I don't speak sleep
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17:36:22 <quintopia> oerjan: would it be possible to temporarily place youself at a choice location in norway
17:36:58 <oerjan> sure, norway welcomes tourists
17:37:26 <quintopia> i know. i'm planning to be a norway tourist in may
17:37:30 <oerjan> assuming you're from the western world and/or reasonably well off
17:37:49 <quintopia> i was asking whether you are willing
17:38:22 <oerjan> (basically, assuming you aren't suspected of wanting to immigrate)
17:39:43 <quintopia> i'm sure they don't mind billionaires immigrating there though. no country does.
17:40:57 <oerjan> there are refugees accepted. you're just not allowed to say that's why you're coming until you're standing at the border/airport arrival. unless you're on the preapproved un quota.
17:42:53 <quintopia> so you didn't really address my question. whereabouts approximately are you located?
17:42:57 <oerjan> if you _do_ manage to get to our borders, you can apply for asylum.
17:44:02 <oerjan> assuming you haven't done so previously in another dublin agreement country, in which case you'll be sent back there.
17:44:11 <quintopia> listen i'm trying to arrange a confluence here, not interpret baroque immigration policies :P
17:44:25 <oerjan> and i'm trying to evade the issue.
17:44:56 <quintopia> the easiest way to evade it would be to say "no sorry we can't be friends go away"
17:45:27 <olsner> that's not really evading the issue since that'd end up resolving it
17:45:39 <oerjan> see, olsner understands
17:45:53 <oerjan> it's because he's scandinavian too
17:46:43 <quintopia> yeah i don't understand. when an issue is easy to resolve, why evade?
17:48:30 <oerjan> because you have an overly extraverted definition of "easy" hth
17:49:37 <quintopia> oerjan: would you like to sort through your own inner thoughts and feelings before you answer?
17:49:57 <oerjan> no, i'm pretty sure i won't meet you anyway.
17:50:11 <oerjan> it's not you, it's me, you see.
17:50:20 <quintopia> oh okay. see that was pretty easy.
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19:42:09 <zzo38> Since when playing the Dungeons&Dragons game and thinking of some of the tactics I think of chess variants too, and there is the king too in the Dungeons&Dragons game, and then there is the evil chancellor, and "chancellor" is also the name of a piece used in some chess variants, where it move as the rook or knight, so I thought somehow make up the chess variant based on the characters and events in that game.
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02:36:14 <Sgeo> Life gain is usually considered weak, right? Looks like Sunbound makes it better?
02:38:18 <Sgeo> Ok. Eternity Snare is expensive. Eternity Snare lets you draw a card, but at the cost of making one of your creatures hard to untap
02:38:23 <Sgeo> That.... seems a bit silly
02:38:45 <zzo38> You can enchant opponent's cards too not only your own
02:38:57 <Sgeo> Oh, good point, thank you
02:40:57 <Sgeo> I should look for that mythic rare I have lying around
02:41:10 <Sgeo> All I remember offhand is that it's green
02:41:26 <Sgeo> And that I might be misremembering if it's mythic rare or rare
02:41:39 <Sgeo> And that I got it in 2012
02:43:23 <shachaf> i think i have two magic: the gathering cards that are mythic rare
02:47:29 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is Vortex Elemental _very_ good in some situations?
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03:56:49 <Sgeo> What block was released in 2012?
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04:48:10 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=3352&type=card
04:48:15 <Sgeo> Why are Endbringers talking?
04:48:23 <Sgeo> Why do they exist in the Magic universe?
04:50:06 <zzo38> I once wrote a program to generate a booster pack for any official set and print out proxies, although I don't think it works anymore since they changed the system.
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05:55:07 <zzo38> Are you aware of the ZPAQ format?
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05:58:49 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: http://mattmahoney.net/dc/zpaq203.pdf ?
05:59:45 <lifthrasiir> it felt to me like a Vorbis setup page (notorious for its relatively large initialization setp)
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06:04:25 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, that one
06:05:03 <lifthrasiir> last time I've seen that there was no journaling format nor encrypted format
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07:41:41 <zzo38> I like their ideas that the decompression is included part of the file so that you can use custom algorithms and predictors, although I would think a lot more compression is possible. ZPAQ may also be slow, however.
07:43:26 <lifthrasiir> I was pondering about the self-extracting portable game format (a la Z machine) with a reasonably fast VM.
07:45:45 <zzo38> But Z-machine is different than that.
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07:47:11 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: yeah, I was talking about the positioning from the user's perspective, the resulting format will be much more versatile.
07:48:46 <zzo38> I don't know what you mean by a self-extracting portable game format though.
07:53:35 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: hmm, what I was having in mind was something like GBA ROM, which acts as a "portable" game format with a defined VM semantics. "self-extracting" means that it is designed for compactness, maybe hundreds of KBs maximum.
07:54:52 <lifthrasiir> I do agree that my idea (if it can be called as an idea after all) is too vague
08:01:24 <zzo38> Ah, OK. Yes, GBA ROM format does do such a thing but maybe it is too complicated. I can understand what you mean now though.
08:06:44 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: yarr run rc part faq arr
08:08:47 <zzo38> I wanted to use format that it could fit in one or two QR codes without normally being too large, but maybe that is difficult.
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08:31:11 <coppro> I have immense respect for doctors
08:31:31 <coppro> they have to debug shitty haphazard code that's literally full of bugs, some of which are in fact required for proper operation
08:32:19 <coppro> for the most part they debug using observed behaviour, although there's a poor built-in diagnostic tool in the voice interface, as well as the ability to perform more advanced but still limited diagnostics at great cost
08:34:35 <coppro> nobody really understands the code any more, it's a matter of significant debate whether anyone ever did, and in practice the only real way to do any actual work is to try things and see what happens
08:35:18 <coppro> thankfully the system is fairly resilient, because it can't be rebooted, but you have to account for the fact that you have extremely wonky behaviour where something can affect something seemingly unrelated
08:36:18 <coppro> not to mention that a significant amount of the program is run by several competing layers of AI, with varying amounts of access to the program's functions and varying levels of sophistication. And sometimes the AI is buggy.
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08:43:32 <ais523> coppro: talking about AIs that are sometimes buggy, I was working a bunch on optimizing aimake
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08:43:54 <ais523> it now does backwards chaining internally to work out which order to run rules in, falling back to its previous behaviour (forward chaining) when that doesn't help (i.e. rule outputs aren't known)
08:44:10 <ais523> which means it wastes a lot less time trying to work out which rules are runnable, it's around twice as fast now
08:44:20 <ais523> so there's the "-j2" you were asking for ;-)
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09:30:28 <Sgeo> Zendikar boosters sometimes contained Power Nine cards?!?!?
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09:31:07 <oerjan> ais523: FIX YOU CONNECTION MKAY
09:31:19 <ais523> oerjan: I don't own this connection, it's borrowed
09:31:29 <oerjan> STEAL ONE THAT WORKS MKAY
09:31:48 <Sgeo> So, time to administer a turing-test to ais523?
09:31:54 <ais523> also I'm intentionally using a bad connection so that I don't end up getting sidetracked and wasting too much time online
09:32:35 <oerjan> that's ok but we'll have to ban you if you keep cycling mkay
09:32:54 <ais523> let me take the channel off autojoin for a while, then
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09:36:43 <Sgeo> "Contraption is a new artifact type. There are currently no artifacts with this type. And there's no current game meaning of "assemble.""
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10:25:30 <fizzie> "Dear Colleagues, We are pleased to announce the sixt issue of the International Journal Transactions on Machine Learning and Data Mining, (ISSN: 1865-6781), Volume 6 - Number 2 - Ocotber 2013 --" I'm not sure I trust a journal that misspells "sixth" (both in subject and body) and "October" in their spam.
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11:08:04 <callforjudgement> gah, I just had to block a spambot for 23 years instead of the usual 14
11:08:36 <callforjudgement> I guess this is the end of 24-year blocks at Esolang, at least until someone fixes the date situatoin
11:09:39 <fizzie> Where does the number 24 come from?
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11:14:05 <scarf> fizzie: it was because the default used to be "24 hours", and graue change it to "24 years" because it was the fastest long period of time to produce with keyboard movements
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12:33:48 <fizzie> Huh, a conference deadline *was not extended*. Strange.
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13:18:18 <metasepia> CYUL 271300Z 01013KT 3/4SM -SN OVC013 M15/M17 A2930 RMK SN4NS4 SLP926
13:19:24 <metasepia> EFHK 271250Z 09011KT 9999 -SN BKN010 M09/M11 Q1026 NOSIG
13:19:41 <fizzie> It got warm here, though.
13:19:46 <metasepia> LOWI 271250Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW015 SCT060 BKN100 02/M00 Q0999 R08/490345 NOSIG
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13:53:24 <ais523_> "Figure 1 gives a nice minesweeper puzzle to think about. If you find it easy you probably are a real minesweeper addict, and are getting to be quite good at the game" <-- I found a solution in like 10 seconds, not because I'm good at Minesweeper, but because the text implied there was only one solution
13:53:45 <ais523_> and knowing there was only one solution, noticed that as the puzzle was symmetrical, the solution must be too
13:53:59 <ais523_> this is a nice general-purpose method for solving many types of puzzles
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13:59:55 <boily> speaking of puzzles, I tried my hand at Ninja Twins yesterday → http://dev.kronbits.com/ninjatwins
14:00:23 <boily> the puzzles in that game are evil.
14:15:01 <nortti> " Item is Latin for "as well as"; the fact that it ended up preceding each object in a list gave it its modern usage. "
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14:30:41 <ais523_> oklopol: it was a Minesweeper puzzle on a 6x6 grid; the four centre squares are all 0, the squares immediately adjacent to them (including diagonals) are all 2s, the other squares are unknown
14:30:44 <ais523_> and you have to place the mines
14:30:58 <ais523_> without information on how many there are
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14:35:05 <oklopol> ais523_: many things become easier if you just know that solutions are unique
14:35:29 <oklopol> for example, it's much faster to parse context free languages if you know the grammar gives unique presentations for words
14:35:46 <oklopol> (even if there's no actual "reason" for determinism like LL or LR)
14:35:59 <ais523_> how difficult is it to prove that a context free language is unambiguous? actually undecidable, or just a horrendous computational class?
14:36:41 <oklopol> it's undecidable because emptiness of intersection is undecidable
14:37:20 <oklopol> because you can express the language w_1#w_2#...#w_n where w_{2i + 1} is the next step of a turing machine from w_{2i}
14:37:38 <oklopol> and you can do the same for w_{2i+1} vs w_{2i+2}
14:37:58 <oklopol> and intersection is then nonempty iff the turing machine halts (because w_n has to be a halting config in both, which is regular to check)
14:38:14 <oklopol> (by regular i mean checkable by FSM)
14:38:40 <int-e> Right. I'd use PCP, but that's essentially the same.
14:38:52 <oklopol> yeah i'm just eliminating a step
14:39:04 <oklopol> to prove pcp undecidable, you do essentially what i said
14:39:06 <int-e> Post's Correspondence Problem.
14:39:16 <int-e> oklopol: Yes, I know. Hence "essentially the same" :)
14:41:55 <boily> int-e: interesting.
14:42:10 * boily has esolanging ideas...
14:46:14 <oklopol> ais523_: i have the solution and proof of uniqueness
14:46:43 <oklopol> (i needed a bit of case analysis)
14:47:02 <ais523_> yeah, I think the author overestimates how hard the puzzle is, or perhaps is going about it the wrong way
14:48:58 <oklopol> well finding _a_ solution is of course rather trivial
14:50:06 <oklopol> and in a row of 2s you use a 110110110 pattern, i can imagine that the correct solution is the most likely guess
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14:50:29 <oklopol> (i didn't think, i let math tell me the solution)
14:54:25 <int-e> sorry, which puzzle?
14:55:04 <int-e> the minesweeper one?
14:58:45 <int-e> Not too difficult. We have to split the corner 2s among the two sides; but 022 is impossible, so that 1221 on each side is the only possibility left.
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16:27:20 <quintopia> how tohow to give a functional alcoholic strong, static typing?
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16:45:34 <coppro> Any continental Europeans around?
16:45:44 <coppro> (nordic countries count)
16:56:41 <int-e> boily: hmm. how do the ninja twins sliding blocks work?
16:57:12 <kmc> fungot: did you enjoy the free continental breakfast
16:57:12 <fungot> kmc: but you should strive for good hygiene, that's always the fun part isn't it
16:57:29 <kmc> fungot: 420 wash hands everyday
16:57:29 <fungot> kmc: like an evil version of kibo i take it you fnord for it... :) it don't use the mouse
17:00:57 <metasepia> KATL 271652Z 33011KT 10SM FEW038 SCT060 SCT110 14/04 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP139 T01440039
17:01:16 <quintopia> i like metasepia. it uses a prefix character that my phone is capable of typing
17:03:45 <int-e> I guess the answer is that the linux version's game logic is broken
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17:27:43 <kmc> https://github.com/vhf/free-programming-books/blob/master/free-programming-books.md
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17:41:38 <quintopia> whenever i try to imagine what Mobius Chess would look like, it always looks like absolute carnage that ends in a draw...
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17:44:10 <oerjan> <callforjudgement> Y2038 problem strikes early :-( <-- wat.
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17:46:12 <coppro> nooodl: are you proud of your health care system?
17:47:00 <metasepia> ENVA 271720Z 12016KT CAVOK M01/M11 Q1010 TEMPO 11022G35KT RMK WIND 670FT 14016KT
17:47:17 <oerjan> that /M11 means the weather is ridiculously dry, right?
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17:49:00 <oerjan> i understand some parts of northern norway haven't had precipitation since new year
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18:01:04 * oerjan solves ais523's minesweeper puzzle without assuming uniqueness.
18:01:28 <oerjan> just because that's the sort of thing i do.
18:01:55 <shachaf> you also gotta solve it without assuming existence
18:04:26 <oerjan> that... sounds tricky to define in a way that doesn't seriously cramp your logic
18:05:22 <Ngevd> Is there an imperative esolang wherin all instructions modify state?
18:05:25 <shachaf> well, presumably it just means that you don't know whether there's a solution or not
18:05:35 <boily> int-e: they slide one cell when you bump into them, and gravity affects them.
18:05:36 <shachaf> which i think the usual case
18:05:45 <boily> (and damn, that mac'n'cheese was good!)
18:06:02 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but the _first_ step is do assume there is a solution to either deduce its properties or get a contradiction
18:07:55 <shachaf> hm, maybe it is tricky to define
18:09:06 <boily> quinthellopia. enjoying a drink?
18:10:55 <int-e> boily: yes, as I wrote, the linux version is broken (for me). the flash version makes more sense.
18:11:30 <boily> int-e: oh hm. I seem to have missed that part of the conversation. I'm frying my brain over the Ouya Version.
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18:13:04 <int-e> I'm only up to level 11. tricky :)
18:13:58 <oerjan> <coppro> Any continental Europeans around? <-- now there is.
18:14:27 <nooodl> "<Ngevd> Is there an imperative esolang wherin all instructions modify state?" <- brainfuck?
18:14:48 <kmc> . doesn't modify state
18:15:05 <kmc> also all the comment characters, if those count as "instructions"
18:15:24 <int-e> unlambda? hey, code, data, what's the difference ...
18:15:35 <kmc> nooodl: if that counts then it seems like a pretty trivial question
18:15:48 <nooodl> yeah i'm not sure what counts as state and what doesn't
18:16:08 <coppro> oerjan: are you proud of your health care system?
18:16:18 <boily> fungot: do you state state with your changed states, or is state implicit, and therefore stateful state?
18:16:37 <fungot> boily: i've checked legal ages of all countries suck. big time. ( tuples aren't _quite_ dotted lists: ' in the intuitive notion where there's actually a lot more excited by the coming reload, it crashes
18:16:55 <coppro> so I've been thinking about the wire-crossing problem
18:16:58 <kmc> fungot: are you proud of your health care system?
18:16:58 <fungot> kmc: so all that will have to
18:17:11 <oerjan> coppro: it could be better, but it could be _far_ worse.
18:17:17 <kmc> i'm american, ask me if i'm proud of my health care system
18:17:29 <coppro> kmc: I already know the answer
18:17:35 <coppro> oerjan: sure, but are you *proud* of it
18:18:24 <coppro> re: wcp: could we not look at this as a problem to consider whether the entire possible state space of a machine is planar? I suspect the answer in that case is no
18:18:41 <oerjan> coppro: isn't this a bit like asking a fish if it's proud of the water.
18:19:39 <coppro> oerjan: well canadians are reasonably proud, and apparently it's a Big Thing in the UK
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18:25:22 <kmc> canadians are proud because it's #1 on "why canada is better than america" ;)
18:26:06 <boily> our system is... well... I don't know for Ontarians and other Provinces, but here in Québec it's being profundly, deeply mismanaged.
18:26:38 <boily> unless you're suffering from an urgent emergency where you may die in the next hour, expect to wait. and wait. and wait. and wait...
18:33:53 <coppro> boily: it's the same across the country
18:35:02 <coppro> I went in last night with a blockage in my esophagus, which is really painful and somewhat dangerous (because I couldn't really swallow anything, and choking was a serious risk if I tried). it took me several hours to get a can of coke
18:35:16 <coppro> which apparently has enzymes which help dissolve it
18:35:31 <coppro> I'm pretty sure that by that point I'd basically coughed the thing up so it just needed a little nudging
18:47:35 <quintopia> TIL every image on what-if.xkcd.com has alt-text jokes and half of the citations are jokes too.
18:47:51 <quintopia> also that the pile of all viruses would be about the size of Mount Royal
18:48:25 <boily> Mont Royal for the win!
18:50:33 <oerjan> quintopia: not _every_ image. there's a few mystery left-outs.
18:50:57 <quintopia> oerjan: there's a lot of what ifs. and i only just realized. so i haven't looked at them all yet.
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18:57:34 <oklopol> i noticed the alts right away, but citations took me a while
18:57:46 <oklopol> everything was so easy to believe i guess
19:00:02 <kmc> ahem it's actually title-text not alt-text [pushes up glasses]
19:01:13 <kmc> also did you know, you can put a title attribute on ~any element to give it a tooltip
19:01:24 <kmc> data:text/html,<div title="foo">bar</div>
19:02:24 <shachaf> wait, isn't that what title does
19:03:43 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:05:09 <quintopia> kmc: either way, there's no way to display it on many mobile browsers, and there appears to be no mobile version that provides an alternate way to access the text
19:05:44 <kmc> shachaf: isn't what what title does?
19:06:05 <olsner> quintopia: galaxy note has a stylus you can hover with
19:06:42 <ion> <head><title title="hello">bye</title></head>
19:06:48 <quintopia> olsner: well fuck the fucking fuckers with their fancy fucking hovertablets. meanwhile, i'd like to be able to read title text on my phone.
19:09:25 <boily> Taneb: did you or will you invent hovertablets?
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19:12:28 <shachaf> kmc: i thought you meant title did a thing other than tooltip text
19:12:39 <shachaf> but i guess you meant that it's only meant to work on a few tags
19:12:45 <kmc> not really
19:12:57 <kmc> just that I only thought of it as a thing for <img>, until I learned otherwise
19:13:59 <shachaf> i thought of it as associated with acronym/abbr/etc.
19:14:35 <shachaf> or what's that tag that gives you a dotted underline and a question mark cursor
19:16:17 <shachaf> i like how document.all?true?false is false, but document.all is a thing
19:17:57 <olsner> it has to be falsey to avoid getting detected as IE or something?
19:21:40 <quintopia> just goes to show that evolution causes really dumb adaptations
19:22:15 <quintopia> shachaf: i didn't know there was a tag to do that. sounds like the kind of thing people would do with a css style.
19:23:05 <shachaf> i'm talking about the tag that often has that as a default style
19:23:11 <shachaf> <acronym> or <abbr> or something
19:24:36 <quintopia> does html5 have default styles for semantic tags?
19:24:44 <quintopia> or rather, do browsers that implement it?
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19:33:12 <FireFly> micro-b has a facility for hovering over things with a cursor
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20:46:27 <int-e> boily: the ninja twins game (flash version) has some strange glitches. now I have a ninja bouncing between a box and a bouncer (level 17) ... in the same level, the ninjas can walk through one of the sliding blocks. strange.
20:49:09 <boily> int-e: that's not good...
20:50:02 <int-e> so is there a version that works? :)
20:52:35 <boily> the Ouya version seems to correctfully work. I can't assert that level 17 is bugless as I'm not there yet.
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21:12:55 <boily> PDF question: where should I put the funpuns entry? in the “Things” chapter, or in shachaf's header?
21:14:03 <boily> you'd like your quotes to be supressed? if you have a github account and are a cocoonspirator, you can remove everything inconvenient.
21:14:14 <boily> also, you could ask me, and I'll obliterate everything.
21:14:33 <Bike> good phraseology here
21:16:02 <shachaf> Bike: tell me about cococoons
21:16:28 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
21:17:02 <metasepia> The raccoon (Procyon lotor), sometimes spelled racoon, also known as the common raccoon, North American raccoon, northern raccoon and colloquially as coon, is a medium-sized mammal native to North America.
21:20:29 <metasepia> bike definition: '''chiefly Scottish''' a nest of wild bees, wasps, or hornets.
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21:20:44 <boily> Bike: well. at least you are chiefly Scottish and wild.
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21:23:06 <Bike> i'm ok with that.
21:23:20 <metasepia> firefly definition: any of various winged nocturnal beetles (especially family Lampyridae) that produce a bright soft intermittent light by oxidation of luciferin especially for courtship purposes.
21:23:56 <Bike> i like hymenopterans.
21:26:26 <metasepia> Boiling is the rapid vaporization of a liquid, which occurs when a liquid is heated to its boiling point, the temperature at which the vapor pressure of the liquid is equal to the pressure exerted on the liquid by the surrounding environmental pressure.
21:26:41 <FireFly> `run echo 'A racoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in fur' >wisdom/racoonspirator
21:27:40 <FireFly> Does this mean that boily is 'hot'?
21:28:32 <boily> I am a sexy shoeless god of war :D
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21:35:42 <shachaf> FireFly: p. sure it should be "raccoonspirator"
21:36:23 <FireFly> Wikipedia mentioned both spellings, and that one was more similar to cocoon
21:38:40 <ion> According to a Finnish online thesaurus, “to manipulate” is synonymous with “butterscotch” and “to evade”. http://www.synonyymit.fi/manipuloida http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.synonyymit.fi%2Fmanipuloida
21:52:44 <FreeFull> Butterscotch is very manipulative
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21:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> according to wiktionary the latin for clitoris also means gridiron
22:00:33 <Phantom_Hoover> this is even funnier given that the latin for clitoris is so obscene that it appears like once in the entire body of surviving literature
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22:05:54 <FreeFull> And are they sure grid irons weren't meant? =P
22:06:36 <kmc> does it not show up in any of the graffiti from pompeii?
22:06:38 <kmc> guess not http://www.pompeiana.org/resources/ancient/graffiti%20from%20pompeii.htm
22:32:12 <nooodl> FreeFull: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity#Land.C4.ABca:_the_clitoris
22:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think it does, but that's not really 'literature'
22:42:14 <FireFly> It's more like, ancient tweets
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22:45:37 <FreeFull> kmc: Graffiti used to be so much better in terms of text
22:45:58 <FreeFull> "Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men’s behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity!"
22:55:16 <FreeFull> It's funny how they used graffiti as a sort of craigslist too
22:56:00 <coppro> I doubt that the actual graffiti was considered anything as close to that in terms of poetic-ness
22:56:26 <coppro> imo latin's density means that we tend to translate it quite colourfully, lacking distinction
22:56:35 <FreeFull> "Chie, I hope your hemorrhoids rub together so much that they hurt worse than when they every have before!"
22:56:51 <FreeFull> Yeah, it's hard to translate it concisely
22:57:13 <FreeFull> "Apollinaris, the doctor of the emperor Titus, defecated well here "
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23:06:52 <Bike> yep, exaactly like my last craigslist ad
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23:17:37 <shachaf> oerjan: someone suggested that "relevant" could mean f(0) = 0
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23:18:33 <kmc> shachaf: ?
23:20:50 <shachaf> kmc: "relevant function", to go with "linear" and "affine"
23:28:57 <int-e> @tell boily the windows version has the same glitches as the flash version, but level 17 is solvable.
23:30:18 <kmc> shachaf: ok
23:30:37 <shachaf> is there another name for functions f such that f(0) = 0
23:32:39 <int-e> . o O ( zero-preserving )
23:33:12 <Bike> yeah, zero-preserving was my thought too
23:33:26 <kmc> "original"
23:36:18 <int-e> pfft. meaning, the graph contains the origin?!
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23:56:06 <kmc> int-e: yes
00:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> <shachaf> is there another name for functions f such that f(0) = 0
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00:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean they're just a constant addition away from every other function
00:07:45 <Taneb> I am looking forward to the future
00:08:14 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, will you come to York to my "How to make an esolang without really trying" talk, wherein I make an esolang in front of a live audience?
00:08:30 <Bike> you make it sound like you were sawing a lady in half
00:08:51 <Taneb> Bike, I'll be doing that too (no I won't)
00:09:21 <Bike> behold, the amazing ngevdello and his dancing exec bits!
00:12:38 <Bike> "Hey VCs / lunatics / 1%ers, kristallnac.ht is available for registration"
00:15:28 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you are the channel regular who is most likely to attend other than me
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01:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ok i can actually make that provided i don't carelessly agree to do something more important
01:03:51 <shachaf> Taneb: have you considered new york instead
01:04:05 <Taneb> shachaf, call me old-fashioned, but I prefer this one
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01:55:32 <kmc> Lena Dunham having her own unsympathetic character on her own TV show deliver an annoying multi-minute rant in praise of Gawker and Jezebel is probably the sickest burn I've seen on TV
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03:17:25 <kmc> shachaf: did you know the number of km in a mile is equal to φ to within 0.5%
03:17:35 <kmc> so there are approx fib(n+1) km in fib(n) miles
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04:19:33 <shachaf> kmc: yep, that's my usual heuristic
04:26:14 <kmc> also did you know that Dunning and Kruger showed a *positive* correlation between perceived and actual ability?
04:26:17 <kmc> http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/07/what-the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-and-isnt/
04:29:01 <kmc> oh I think I learned that here
04:29:08 <kmc> in a conversation you were part of
04:29:10 <kmc> hooray for logs
04:41:48 <kmc> i,i the meta-dunning-kruger effect: people who make stronger claims about the dunning-kruger effect know less about it
04:57:52 <oklopol_> til: the dunning-kruger effect had to do with people called dunning and kruger
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06:05:03 <Bike> if anyone has gross code from vidya games, tell @ibogost
06:05:36 <kmc> this sounds like a job for ais523
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06:37:32 <shachaf> should i go for longer passwords using only lowercase letters
06:38:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: someone suggested that "relevant" could mean f(0) = 0 <-- hm, plausible
06:39:24 <oerjan> shachaf: some sites won't accept that, i hear
06:39:58 <shachaf> yes but you can add decoy symbols for those
06:40:17 <shachaf> oerjan: should an infinite series like sine be considered relevant
06:41:05 <oerjan> hm then you would want to expand the concept to analytic functions.
06:42:14 <zzo38> Do you know about 6502 unofficial opcodes?
06:43:06 <oerjan> shachaf: well if relevant is to mean something different from linear, it needs to apply to some non-affine functions.
06:44:22 <shachaf> well, f(x)=x^2 or something
06:44:45 <shachaf> does this apply to just any function between vector spaces such that f(0)=0 or do you need something more
06:45:22 <oerjan> hm oh if it's vector spaces it gets even weirder.
06:45:41 <shachaf> well wasn't that the point
06:45:59 <shachaf> since you were talking about how you couldn't generalize those polynomials to n-dimensional vector spaces
06:50:24 <shachaf> the phrase "origin-preserving" does appear in some places
06:50:30 <Bike> zzo38: i've heard of em
06:50:32 <shachaf> "any origin-preserving isometry is a linear map"
06:53:06 <oerjan> well isometry is stronger than affine
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07:00:21 <HackEgo> 25146/15625 (exactly 1.609344)
07:01:37 <Bike> it's cool how on one level that's "less than 1% different" and on another it's "pointless coincidence"
07:02:19 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
07:02:46 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,17...
07:03:27 <oerjan> > zipWith(flip(/))`ap`tail$fix$(1:).scanl(+)1
07:03:28 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,1.5,1.6666666666666667,1.6,1.625,1.6153846153846154,1.6190476190476...
07:04:01 <oerjan> > drop 6$zipWith(flip(/))`ap`tail$fix$(1:).scanl(+)1
07:04:02 <lambdabot> [1.6153846153846154,1.619047619047619,1.6176470588235294,1.6181818181818182,...
07:04:49 <oerjan> ok there isn't even a much better fibonacci quotient.
07:05:42 <oerjan> a F(n+1)/F(n) that's a better approximation than phi itself.
07:06:06 <Bike> i thought it was exactly phi, in the limit
07:06:18 <Bike> oh, wait, i see, ok
07:06:22 <oerjan> Bike: i'm talking about the mile -> km conversion
07:06:33 <Bike> yeah i geti tnow
07:06:34 <oerjan> i suppose 1.6153846153846154 is the closest one
07:10:08 <oerjan> > let cf x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cf (1/(x-f)) where f = fromIntegral$floor x in cf (25146/15625) :: Rational
07:10:09 <lambdabot> with `GHC.Real.Ratio GHC.Integer.Type.Integer'
07:10:26 <oerjan> > let cf x | isInfinite x = [] | otherwise = f : cf (1/(x-f)) where f = fromIntegral$floor x in cf (25146/15625 :: Rational)
07:10:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.RealFloat GHC.Real.Rational)
07:10:27 <lambdabot> (GHC.Float.RealFloat GHC.Real.Rational)
07:11:01 <oerjan> > let cf x | f == x = [f] | otherwise = f : cf (1/(x-f)) where f = fromIntegral$floor x in cf (25146/15625 :: Rational)
07:11:02 <lambdabot> [1 % 1,1 % 1,1 % 1,1 % 1,1 % 1,3 % 1,1 % 1,2 % 1,7 % 1,1 % 1,1 % 1,15 % 1]
07:12:28 <oerjan> > let cf x | d == 0 = [f] | otherwise = f : cf (1/d) where f = floor x; d = x - fromIntegral f in cf (25146/15625 :: Rational)
07:12:29 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,3,1,2,7,1,1,15]
07:13:16 <oerjan> > 1+(1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1))))) :: Rational
07:13:39 <oerjan> > 1+(1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3))))) :: Rational
07:14:37 <oerjan> > 1+(1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/3))))) :: Rational
07:14:58 <oerjan> > 1+(1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(2))))) :: Rational
07:15:29 <shachaf> > iterate (\x->1+1/x) (1::Rational)
07:15:30 <lambdabot> [1 % 1,2 % 1,3 % 2,5 % 3,8 % 5,13 % 8,21 % 13,34 % 21,55 % 34,89 % 55,144 % ...
07:16:10 <shachaf> > map numerator $ iterate (\x->1/(1+x)) (1::Rational)
07:16:11 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,17...
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07:18:53 <oerjan> > minimumBy (comparing $ \(m,n) -> abs $ m/n - 25146/15625)) [(m,n) | n <- [1..20], m <- [0..40]]
07:18:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:58: parse error on input `)'
07:18:57 <oklopol> anyone wanna whip up a haskell solution to counting the number of brainfuck programs with matching brackets without . and ,
07:19:10 <oerjan> > minimumBy (comparing $ \(m,n) -> abs $ m/n - 25146/15625) [(m,n) | n <- [1..20], m <- [0..40]]
07:19:32 <oerjan> > sortBy (comparing $ \(m,n) -> abs $ m/n - 25146/15625) [(m,n) | n <- [1..20], m <- [0..40]]
07:19:33 <lambdabot> [(29.0,18.0),(21.0,13.0),(8.0,5.0),(16.0,10.0),(24.0,15.0),(32.0,20.0),(13.0...
07:20:01 <oklopol> like p(n) = 4p(n-1) + sum_{i = 0}^{n-2} p(i) p(n-i-2)
07:20:13 <oklopol> can you do this with list magic
07:20:29 <oerjan> > sortBy (comparing $ \x -> abs $ x - 25146/15625) $ (sqrt 5 + 1)/2 : [m/n | n <- [1..20], m <- [0..40]]
07:20:31 <lambdabot> [1.6111111111111112,1.6153846153846154,1.618033988749895,1.6,1.6,1.6,1.6,1.6...
07:21:39 <oerjan> > sortBy (comparing $ \x -> abs $ x - 25146/15625) $ (sqrt 5 + 1)/2 : [m/n | n <- [1..50], m <- [0..100]]
07:21:40 <lambdabot> [1.6097560975609757,1.608695652173913,1.608695652173913,1.6111111111111112,1...
07:22:07 <oerjan> phi seems to do pretty well in the comparison.
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07:24:01 <oklopol> 220284348986588570109202836338028914428611773535981066182485818891641176575745435677614245375605705664256074439978888016219589144792715586214584933803945623110548077752330775651922506462688159269237015622883861450993208900404333264
07:28:18 <oerjan> i assume you are already memoizing already you couldn't possibly get to 5000
07:29:33 <oklopol> i also tried out a c bignum library, and got up to 50 or something
07:29:52 <oklopol> python give 1000 in a few seconds
07:30:23 <oklopol> (probably i just did something stupid because i sort of suck at c)
07:31:15 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've done catalan numbers as a list thing in haskell before but i cannot quite remember how i did that awkward sum.
07:31:55 <Bike> wheres the SymbolicCombinatoric module
07:32:09 <zzo38> Now I figured out on Astrolog when is Chinese New Year.
07:32:25 <oklopol> yeah this is the number of dyck words with extra symbols
07:32:31 <oerjan> zzo38: i think it has already been this year?
07:32:46 <oklopol> so sort of catalan numbers
07:33:14 <zzo38> oerjan: No. It is later (if the Chinese timezone is used, I think Jan.31)
07:37:22 <zzo38> I made up a diagram to show you how to calculate when is Chinese New Year (the diagram is not displaying the data for this year though): http://zzo38computer.org/img_14/chinese-new-year.png
07:42:07 <lambdabot> [[],[1],[1,2],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,2,3,4,5],[1,2,3,4,5,6],[1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[1...
07:43:29 <oerjan> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p
07:43:30 <lambdabot> [1,4,17,76,354,1704,8421,42508,218318,1137400,5996938,31940792,171605956,928...
07:43:54 <oerjan> oklopol: are those correct
07:44:18 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p; p !! 20
07:44:19 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:90: parse error on input `;'
07:44:37 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p !! 20
07:44:53 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p !! 20
07:44:59 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p !! 1000
07:45:00 <lambdabot> 1851699348848864557490460908252351435791528503792571199732642872987429667855...
07:45:15 <oklopol> 1851699348848864557490460908252351435791528503792571199732642872987429667855741056388118709506982301095273520239166445812465897225719714673518034688729346409566576494246766257017500088160821295706471401620743174768643242408712933258876221056914708216651234496955612303387531937013570229817305356203053671545992668489792589165268920056950337807083735642100968509541109361559746272395310718713159517363957691130968711391511344404455840470000377647503645773
07:45:16 <oklopol> 009181430981878971527595122036960829733406983371159554875983183416111068844077682114144155308181843356898547292029738655566107038367415868264323343437633171416678659424310520616791395366627206645082341823517027845344762094860602519075347723961239585700915967561030319441407129604596884739279594357333381658012980964032832
07:47:29 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p !! 1000
07:47:31 <lambdabot> 1851699348848864557490460908252351435791528503792571199732642872987429667855...
07:47:43 <oerjan> it does look pretty fast
07:47:57 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in (p !! 1000 + p !! 1000 + p !! 1000 +p !! 1000 +p !! 1000)
07:48:00 <lambdabot> 9258496744244322787452304541261757178957642518962855998663214364937148339278...
07:48:08 <oerjan> although for real timing you'd want to compile it properly i assume
07:48:35 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p !! 3000
07:48:42 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p !! 2000
07:48:49 <oklopol> > let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in p !! 1500
07:48:51 <lambdabot> 1200860333331673794565127667310636780014056128877285462588690504707901944941...
07:49:01 <oerjan> `run echo 'main = let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in ' >Test.hs
07:49:25 <oerjan> `run echo 'main = let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in print $ p !! 1000' >Test.hs
07:49:44 <HackEgo> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( Test.hs, Test.o ) \ \ Test.hs:1:83: \ Not in scope: `inits' \ Perhaps you meant `init' (imported from Prelude)
07:50:05 <oerjan> `run echo 'import Data.List(inits);main = let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in print $ p !! 1000' >Test.hs
07:50:34 <HackEgo> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( Test.hs, Test.o ) \ Linking Test ...
07:50:58 <oerjan> i don't remember how to do timing
07:51:00 <Bike> `run time echo is it a shell command
07:51:02 <HackEgo> is it a shell command \ \ real0m0.002s \ user0m0.000s \ sys0m0.000s
07:51:31 <HackEgo> 18516993488488645574904609082523514357915285037925711997326428729874296678557410563881187095069823010952735202391664458124658972257197146735180346887293464095665764942467662570175000881608212957064714016207431747686432424087129332588762210569147082166512344969556123033875319370135702298173053562030536715459926684897925891652689200569503378070837356
07:51:37 <oerjan> `run time ./Test | tail -1
07:51:40 <HackEgo> 18516993488488645574904609082523514357915285037925711997326428729874296678557410563881187095069823010952735202391664458124658972257197146735180346887293464095665764942467662570175000881608212957064714016207431747686432424087129332588762210569147082166512344969556123033875319370135702298173053562030536715459926684897925891652689200569503378070837356
07:52:01 <Bike> output wants to be free
07:52:20 <oerjan> `run time ./Test >/dev/null | tail -1
07:52:24 <HackEgo> \ real0m2.075s \ user0m2.000s \ sys0m0.400s
07:53:30 <fizzie> Huh, what sort of character encoding is this. It looks like latin-1 except all non-ascii letters have the wrong case.
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07:54:26 <zzo38> I don't know; I can't see it.
07:54:58 <fizzie> I'd share it but it's Top Secret.
07:55:15 <fizzie> Oh, it's not as simple as the wrong case.
07:55:27 <fizzie> There's a 0xc8 (latin-1 for È) for 'é', for example.
07:56:23 <fizzie> And 0x89 for ä, and 0x88 for ö. I suppose those might be enough to find it, but I don't know of a good tool to look up character sets by example.
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07:56:47 <oerjan> didn't someone put one in HackEgo
07:58:19 <fizzie> For context, it's a CSV export of people registered on a course from the University course administration system.
07:58:40 <zzo38> I don't know what character encoding it is.
07:59:09 <oerjan> @google ancient finnish encodings
07:59:10 <lambdabot> http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Encoding_Recommendation_for_Languages
07:59:10 <lambdabot> Title: Character Encoding Recommendation for Languages at Scratchpad, the home of te...
07:59:51 <fizzie> It's not the seven-bit Finnish one, I know that much.
08:00:02 <fizzie> And it's not even a legacy system. Though I guess it could be built on one.
08:01:46 <fizzie> Bah, I'll just tr it; the only special characters in it seem to be é, ä and ö. But it's still strange.
08:02:21 <zzo38> Yes you can easily convert to Latin-1 or CP437 or whatever, if that is the only non-ASCII characters it includes
08:02:36 <zzo38> Although it would still help to know what character set it really is.
08:03:40 <int-e> good \'e\"a\"o morning
08:08:34 <fizzie> I tried iconv -l | while read cs; do if [ "$(printf '\x89\x88\xc8' | iconv -f $cs -t utf8)" = "äöé" ]; then echo $cs; fi; done 2>/dev/null but it found nothing. (And the same command with the latin-1 bytes does found all kinds of compatible character sets.)
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08:31:59 <Sgeo_> http://lisptips.com/post/31567007407/putting-the-r-in-repl
08:32:10 <Sgeo_> Should I be sad that the equivalent of this works in Racket?
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08:54:07 <Sgeo_> At least the GOP finally has an alternative plan. It sucks, but at least it exists
08:54:07 <Sgeo_> http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/196504-gop-senators-push-obamacare-alternative
08:54:51 <Sgeo_> "The CARE Act would require insurers to offer policies to anyone who has proof of “continuous coverage,” along with protections for those who lose their health plans for any reason. But those with pre-existing conditions who fail to maintain continuous coverage at any time could be denied coverage."
08:55:31 <Taneb> One of my friends is learning Clojure and keeps asking for my help because I know Haskell and it's all functional programming, right? and I can mostly set him on the right path but I worry that I'm gonna tell him something that is not very Clojure-y
08:55:55 <Sgeo_> Hmm, is this continuous coverage starting sometime after the implementation date? If so, that would certainly fix the obvious idiocy, and some of the criticisms on Fark
08:57:04 <Sgeo_> Although it's still problematic, one mistake and you're trapped off insurance forever?
08:57:35 <Taneb> Now I am suddenly thinking of an FRP web framework
08:57:46 <Taneb> Could that work? I dunno, I guess probably yeah
08:58:10 <Taneb> Does it provide any significant advantage?
08:58:19 <Taneb> Should I have breakfast now? Yes
09:03:03 <oerjan> Sgeo_: sorry, do us europeans it'll look idiotic regardless. even obamacare. hth.
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10:32:19 <ion> http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/01/stephen-hawkings-blunder-on-black-holes-shows-danger-of-listening-to-scientists-says-bachmann.html
10:34:57 <ion> Yeah, it’s satire.
10:41:34 <elliott> it's... almost funny! almost.
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11:46:55 <int-e> Ok, so Hawkings writes that black holes don't have an event horizon as such; no information is lost when matter crosses it, and it's precise boundary is fluctuating rather than a sphere.
11:47:51 <int-e> I doubt that the "blunder" is an actual quote, having found no reliably looking source for it.
11:48:14 <int-e> reliable looking? grammar is hard.
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11:58:32 <ais523> int-e: I think the story is that Hawking spent years of his life trying to work out where information went when it fell into a black hole, and then eventually concluded that the problem didn't exist in the first place
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12:03:12 <int-e> So he does write that there are no black holes ... in a specific sense: "The absence of event horizons mean that there are no black holes - in the sense of regimes from which light can’t escape to infinity."
12:07:56 <int-e> ais523: Right. But that doesn't sound like mainstream news to me.
12:15:16 <ais523> int-e: thus, it's satire
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12:25:16 <ais523> quintopia: actually, complex numbers can be totally ordered via alternating digits in the decimal expansion
12:25:21 <ais523> between the real and imaginary part
12:25:31 <ais523> it's a stupid total ordering, but it obeys all the requirements to be a total ordering
12:35:01 <fizzie> It's a total ordering, but it doesn't make complex numbers an ordered field, right? (I can't figure out what that was a response to.)
12:37:51 <ais523> yeah, it doesn't add or multiply properly
12:38:00 <ais523> and it was a response to an edit summary on the wiki
12:38:19 <fizzie> Oh, that explains why grepping the logs wasn't so useful.
12:39:55 <ais523> I don't normally consider myself bound by communication medium when quoting or replying to something
12:41:44 <fizzie> I'm tempted to send an email containing only "That's fine."
12:42:44 <ais523> seems like a waste of time for all parties concerned :-)
12:47:33 <ais523> now I'm wondering how and whether you know my email address
12:47:43 <ais523> it's certainly believable that you know it, given that it's public information
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13:04:18 <int-e> fizzie: in an ordered field, one has x^2 >= 0 for any x, but i^2 = -1 < 0 contradicts that.
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16:03:29 <HackEgo> A racoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in fur
16:04:01 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
16:12:09 <quintopia> ais523: my bad. i stand by my correction that Por gammer was mistaken speaking of a "maximum" complex number though.
16:12:28 <ais523> quintopia: yeah, I was complaining about the summary, not the edit
16:13:16 <ais523> was this about complex integers, or complex numbers in general, btw? if it's complex numbers in general you have the issue of precision, too
16:13:41 <ais523> (and computability, although that's unlikely to come up while programming)
16:13:57 <quintopia> ais523: Por gammer specified double precision, but my implementation is multiprecision
16:14:35 <boily> what is a gammer, and why does it gam pors?
16:14:55 <ais523> to me, "double precision" implies an actual maximum value (or in the case of complex numbers, maximum for each component)
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16:15:23 <ais523> because it specifies a number of bits for the exponent as well as the mantissa
16:16:41 <quintopia> this is how georgia feels today: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/log_out
16:17:08 <quintopia> ais523: which is why i ignored the that recommendation and went multiprecision
16:17:13 <metasepia> KATL 281612Z 33010KT 9SM -SN BKN028 BKN036 OVC050 M03/M15 A3019 RMK AO2 P0000
16:17:35 <quintopia> boily: i don't mean the weather. i mean the attitudes of georgians
16:18:20 <ais523> quintopia: that link looks vaguely like an XSRF attempt to me
16:19:59 <ais523> I don't think it's possible to write a client-side browser plugin like NoScript to block XSRF without strong AI, right? you can do it server-side without issues though
16:30:36 <quintopia> but NoScript does actually help against some attacks
16:31:24 <int-e> yeah, for example it helps against certain (intended!) credit card transactions ...
16:31:31 <quintopia> the wikipedia page for CSRF lists a bunch of partial client-side solutions
16:32:39 <ais523> quintopia: hmm, I thought the HTML community decided to use "X" for "cross" to reduce acronym colisions
16:32:55 <ais523> but maybe they don't for CSRF because it has no collisions anyway
16:33:13 <int-e> (There's something called "3Dsecure" that's popular in Austria at least; basically a shop makes a cross site request to the credit card companie's "secure" server, and that one does another when the transaction is done. There's of course there's Javascript involved, too.)
16:35:20 <boily> uhm. multiple points of failure, multiple parties involved, unsecured information channels... not only it sounds dumb, but dangerous too.
16:36:19 <int-e> It's ass covering by the CC company; they have logs to show that a certain transaction was acknowledged on their own servers. They don't care that I can't distinguish between entering the data on their server or on another one.
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16:37:02 <int-e> But in any case I have to jump through those hoops from time to time.
16:38:32 <ais523> int-e: in the UK, it's usual (but not universal) for the merchant's site to redirect to the credit card company's site
16:38:51 <ais523> who can either approve it immediately and redirect back, or ask for some extra information for security purposes
16:38:57 <ais523> I'm not sure how it works behind the scenes
16:39:06 <FireFly> Some swedish banks allow one to configure a personal secret, and have that secret shown on all "login-to-bank" pages to authenticate when paying for something or so
16:41:37 <Bike> my credit union has that, but only for logins into itself, since card transactions are through visa. :V
16:42:33 <ais523> FireFly: to prove it's a real bank screen?
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16:42:49 <ais523> Bike: that doesn't actually work, though, because a malicious website could just try to log in as you
16:42:56 <ais523> it would fail, but it'd be able to get the secret before it failed
16:44:05 <int-e> ais523: well the idea is that before one enters their own data one verifies that the secret being displayed is correct.
16:44:21 <int-e> which just makes the attacker's job a bit more complicated but never mind that.
16:44:56 <int-e> the real question isn't whether it's secure, but whether a court can be convinced that it's secure.
16:44:58 <ais523> int-e: yeah, the problem is that you need the secret for the user to log in, but you need the login details to protect the secret
16:45:32 <ais523> doing it on payments works a bit better, though, because an attacker would have to submit a fake payment to get at the secret
16:46:00 <ais523> and if you do that in any sort of volume, the bank will get suspicious, because it's observable from their point of view and something that needs monitoring anyway
16:46:47 <int-e> It's not completely stupid. But it's very annoying.
16:59:16 <quintopia> ais523: one could have a rotating secret that is never the same twice. like "the 4th digit of your social and third letter of your mother's maiden name" today and "the last digit of your phone number and the third digit of your account number" tomorrow. if you ever see the same secret twice, you're being scammed
16:59:44 <ais523> quintopia: doesn't help against a MitM attack, which is what I was thinking of
16:59:54 <ais523> although this would be MitM-via-not-reading-the-URL
17:00:10 <ais523> as opposed to MitM-via-redirecting-the-connection
17:00:29 <quintopia> ais523: well, unless its MitM-by-rewriting-your-local-DNS-cache
17:01:07 <ais523> how does that attack work? I'm aware of the existence of DNS poisoning but don't understand it
17:01:11 <ais523> actually I'll just read Wikipedia
17:02:12 <ais523> oh, apparently it's just "redirect traffic aimed at a DNS server, then it gets cached"
17:02:17 <ais523> I was assuming it was something cleverer than that
17:02:26 <quintopia> i'm not sure how a MitM attack works when the information is securely transmitted
17:02:59 <ais523> it's when a DNS server asks you where a site is, you send back info on other sites too
17:03:34 <ais523> when DNS server A asks DNS server B where a site is, the attacker sends back a reply to A, forged to come from B
17:03:57 <ais523> you'd need to approximately guess the timings, but that's not a real obstacle to an exploit
17:04:37 <ais523> I guess this falls into the general class of TCP security issues that is "you trust the return address on a packet without asking the person who claims to have sent it whether it's genuine"
17:08:58 <quintopia> but then how did that attack that posioned the cache on an ADSL router via an emailed img link work?
17:10:27 <ais523> quintopia: I guess the img link was to a domain that the client hadn't seen before, thus forcing a DNS request to a server owned by the attacker
17:10:38 <ais523> from whatever the router's upstream DNS was
17:11:16 <ais523> and simultaneously giving the attacker the identity of the user (via something encoded in the subdomain, which their malicious DNS sever could see), the IP of the upstream DNS (it's making the request), and the timing of the request
17:11:55 <ais523> the email would also have to contain a link to an image on a legitimate site, but that's easy
17:12:19 <ais523> then if the malicious server knows the IP of the legit's site DNS server, it has all the information it needs to spoof it quite convincingly
17:15:20 <ais523> that actually is a really interesting attack
17:15:47 <ais523> the obvious fix is for DNS requests to contain an arbitrary string that the DNS server echos back in the response
17:20:13 <Taneb> This evening I had a rather boring lecture and ended up thinking about 0xn matrices
17:20:19 <Taneb> Conclusion: they work but are useless
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17:32:22 <FreeFull> Taneb: A matrix that can't store data?
17:33:10 <Taneb> kmc, the fox was in York (well, just outside York)
17:33:22 <Taneb> It still knows its dimensions
17:34:23 <ais523> Taneb: foxes are quite common in Birmingham, although they frequently stay hidden, especially during the daytime
17:34:35 <ais523> I once had to take a long detour once because there was a fox in an alleyway in the middle of the day
17:34:46 <ais523> normally they just run away if you approach them, but they can be dangerous if cornered
17:35:00 <FreeFull> Taneb: What happens when you multiply a 4x0 matrix with a 0x4 matrix?
17:35:15 <Taneb> You get the 4x4 zero matrix, I think
17:35:49 <FreeFull> I wonder if these sort of flat matrices would be useful for matrix truncation/extension
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17:37:36 <ais523> sounds like it might be useful in linear-logic-like applications
17:37:56 <ais523> to have a safe and simple way to destroy data
17:38:24 <ais523> although simply multplying it by zero and adding it to something you were using anyway is probably easier
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17:46:52 <FireFly> Taneb: a 0xn matrix could be represented in J & friends
17:52:55 <boily> what is a 0×N matrix good for, except some horrible type-level hacking?
17:54:34 <kmc> it's the zero matrix because the sum of an empty set is 0?
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17:57:19 <Taneb> boily, probably nothing
18:03:17 <nooodl> you could use 0xN matrices to represent "width component for zero matrices" and Mx0 ones to represent "height component for zero matrices" and then when you multiply them you get a MxN zero matrix
18:03:57 <nooodl> that is probably the only interesting thing they do, really? destroying data isn't very useful
18:06:23 <kmc> does a 0xn matrix still represent a linear map? i guess so but none of them are invertible
18:06:28 <kmc> except a 0x0 matrix :D
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18:08:41 <boily> (meanwhile, I fungotting hate bureaucracy and micromanagement.)
18:08:41 <fungot> boily: i expect it's that or the uploads, i'll do it
18:11:22 <kmc> i had a dream about a block cipher mode which is like ECB but you use a Bloom filter to detect whether you're going to repeat a block and you re-key instead
18:11:26 <kmc> I don't think this is useful in the slightest
18:13:25 <boily> people here have the weirdest dreams...
18:15:58 <kmc> fungot: what do you dream
18:15:58 <fungot> kmc: i'm guessing you're about to be one for your implementation, usually all of r5rs on the sheet of paper"
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18:18:35 <FireFly> fungot dreams in lisp forms? . o O ( http://xkcd.com/224/ )
18:18:35 <fungot> FireFly: mmmm......... i am just using chess because the structure of the cond
18:18:48 <FireFly> fungot thinks in lisp forms.
18:18:49 <fungot> FireFly: should it bother me. :) but no, not at work. i still don't see the importance of critical thought and logic in an argument
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18:20:26 <boily> '(fungot fungot fungot)
18:20:27 <fungot> boily: did he do that one of the things most people who speak a different dialect that allows file i/ o
18:20:35 <fungot> boily: i like keyword arguments, and so you've now got the fnord.
18:20:52 * boily has the fnord! *zelda item get melody ♪
18:21:59 <FireFly> may the fnord be with you.
18:45:10 <quintopia> boily: guess what happens when it snows in atlanta?
18:45:56 <quintopia> boily: 1) billions of traffic accidents because tire chains aren't a thing here 2) i get the day off work yay
18:46:32 <boily> quintopia: the car pileups are previsible. we had one yesterday involving about 40 of them.
18:47:06 <quintopia> previsible? what? help boily i don't speak that.
18:47:26 <boily> predictable. sorry, my French's slipping again...
18:47:45 <boily> fr:prévisible → en:foreseeable, predictable.
18:48:39 <quintopia> boily: did you foresee my not working today? because i'm not.
18:49:48 <boily> the only people who skip their regular schedules when it snows are schoolchildren.
18:50:23 <boily> otherwise, well, you've got a coat, a hat, and a shovel.
18:50:56 <boily> quintopia: where do you work again?
18:51:26 <fizzie> MATLAB/Octave support 0xN and Nx0 matrices, too.
18:52:02 <quintopia> boily: well i am a tutor. schoolchildren are ostensibly my clients
18:52:15 <fizzie> Also the 0x0 matrix, which is handy because you can concatenate the 0x0 matrix to any matrix along any dimension.
18:53:10 <fizzie> (The 0xN and Nx0 matrices, for N > 0, you can concatenate only if the dimensions match right.)
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18:56:45 <boily> quintopia: good point.
18:58:17 <int-e> I like to know that a matrix has full rank without looking at its entries.
19:00:27 <quintopia> int-e: so you only use 0xN and Nx0 matrices
19:01:42 <int-e> Unfortunately, no. It would simplify a lot of things.
19:03:02 <quintopia> int-e: or wait, you could just generate your matrix randomly. then it will almost surely be full rank!
19:04:14 <int-e> quintopia: that's a dangerous claim. I might be working over a finite field.
19:05:57 <quintopia> int-e: if you have a matrix with all nonzero rows/columns you can add a random real nonce to one row and one column and get an almost surely full rank matrix
19:06:49 <int-e> quintopia: (1,1,1;1,1,1;1,1,1) and I like to differ.
19:06:56 <quintopia> obv this won't work if you have rows that are identically the same
19:07:05 <quintopia> but that's easy enoguh to guarantee
19:07:43 <int-e> (the nonce applied at a single position doesn't help ... much. you can add it to all diagonal entries though, that will work.)
19:20:21 <quintopia> int-e: also the set of 1xN and Nx1 matrices with at least one nonzero entry is all full rank!
19:21:20 <quintopia> you could just look at their length rather than their entires
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19:29:27 <oerjan> boily: what large numbers
19:30:25 <oerjan> he was enumerating IO-less brainfuck programs.
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19:34:39 <oerjan> @tell ais523 a + bi <= c + di iff a <= c or (a == c and b <= d) is a simpler total ordering. (the one you'd get from automatically deriving Ord in haskell, although the Complex numbers don't do that out of principle.)
19:34:58 <FireFly> `run time ./Test >/dev/null
19:35:01 <HackEgo> \ real0m2.273s \ user0m2.100s \ sys0m0.300s
19:35:15 <HackEgo> import Data.List(inits);main = let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in print $ p !! 1000
19:35:23 <FireFly> I think time prints to stderr..
19:35:36 <oerjan> yeah i realized that later
19:42:09 <oerjan> <boily> what is a gammer, and why does it gam pors? <-- por gammer is por gammer for por spling, hth
19:42:50 <HackEgo> time: time [-p] pipeline \ Report time consumed by pipeline's execution. \ \ Execute PIPELINE and print a summary of the real time, user CPU time, \ and system CPU time spent executing PIPELINE when it terminates. \ \ Options: \ -pprint the timing summary in the portable Posix format \ \ The value of the TI
19:42:56 <int-e> /usr/bin/time tends to be more informative than the shell builting
19:43:11 <boily> oerjan: I unnerstande.
19:43:25 <FireFly> int-e: what would provide that?
19:44:23 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/bin/time: No such file or directory
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19:49:34 <int-e> ok, so there's a 'time' package in debian ...
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19:53:35 <int-e> > /usr/bin/time /bin/true
19:53:35 <int-e> 0.00user 0.00system 0:00.01elapsed 0%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 392maxresident)k
19:53:35 <int-e> 56inputs+0outputs (1major+138minor)pagefaults 0swaps
19:54:03 <metasepia> LOWI 281920Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW010 SCT015 BKN070 M00/M01 Q0999 R08/19//70 NOSIG
19:54:43 <FireFly> Hm, that does seem to be a lot of info
19:55:05 <metasepia> ESSA 281950Z 10011KT CAVOK M02/M05 Q1026 R01L/410166 R08/410150 R01R/410177 NOSIG
19:58:35 <metasepia> ENVA 281950Z 08009KT 030V130 9999 FEW050 01/M09 Q1019 WS RWY 09 TEMPO 13022G35KT RMK WIND 670FT 16008G24KT
20:03:03 <oerjan> we could need some precipitation in middle norway. another disastrous fire going on.
20:09:49 <quintopia> you didn't have any gas explosions like manitoba did you?
20:12:58 <kmc> or germany http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25922514
20:14:09 <oerjan> quintopia: hm no, although it was apparently close last year when there was a fire in the local paper factory
20:14:40 <oerjan> there was a gas container close to the burning building.
20:16:43 <oerjan> kmc: cow farts, or bullshit?
20:43:42 <boily> cow farts are dangerous → http://www.darwinawards.com/legends/legends2000-06.html
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21:06:20 <HackEgo> olist (942): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
21:07:10 <boily> a day with an olist is a Good Day.
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22:17:35 <kmc> whaaaaaaaaat AMD is going to make server-class ARM64 "Opteron A" chips now?
22:17:37 <kmc> http://community.amd.com/community/amd-blogs/amd-business/blog/2014/01/28/amd-announces-plans-to-sample-64-bit-arm-opteron-a-seattle-processors
22:33:20 <olsner> sounds potentially awesome
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23:45:21 <Sgeo> I think I'm more likely to trust that the Racket team can come up with good tools for the manipulation of languages themselves, and less likely to trust their ability to make "ordinary" programming work well
23:56:44 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't really know. It is open source and based on Android system; the former always being an advantage and the latter advantageous when you are writing or running Android based software; I think its other design decisions aren't all that good; apparently you can't remove HDCP without opening it up though
23:57:50 <quintopia> zzo38: would you consider writing games for it
23:58:23 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't think so, but if there are interpreters/emulators for whatever I do write a game for you can try to see if you are able to run those.
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00:04:53 <zzo38> I have written just one program in Java, I think; it is to extract a "OLE document" archive, since the software libraries to do that are in Java.
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00:13:39 <kmc> shachaf: in GHC Haskell, if C1 is a superclass of C2, can you convert an existential with a C2 bound to an existential with a C1 bound
00:16:17 <shachaf> data E = forall x. Eq x => E x; data O = forall x. Ord x => O x; f (E x) = O x {- here you have the full Ord dictionary for x including the Eq dictionary -}
00:16:52 <kmc> i figured you could
00:17:30 <shachaf> does rust not let you do that or something
00:18:31 <kmc> apparently not :'(
00:18:41 <kmc> we need better tools for faking OOP in Rust
00:26:44 <Bike> what is the importance of server-class ARM
00:26:51 <Bike> or is the important part that AMD is making them, or what
00:45:34 <kmc> the bit that most caught my attention is that AMD is making them
00:45:59 <kmc> since they're a big player in commodity server chips
00:46:35 <kmc> it makes ARM for servers (an idea that's been kicking around for years) seem much more credible
00:50:27 <kmc> as on mobile, the big advantage is power consumption (and maybe cooling as a result)
00:50:45 <kmc> but it's also an interesting opportunity to ditch the legacy cruft of x86 and the PC platform
00:50:50 <kmc> and substitute different legacy cruft
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01:46:37 * pikhq twiddles thumbs for the maintenance guy
01:49:13 <kmc> whatcha gettin maintenanced?
01:50:37 <kmc> obligatory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyeMFSzPgGc
01:56:06 <pikhq> Normally I probably wouldn't think to call at like 7:30pm, but tonight it's gonna be a problem...
01:56:28 <kmc> stay warm!
01:56:33 <kmc> mine some bitcoins if you have to
01:59:46 <Sgeo> kmc: do you know much about occurrence typing?
01:59:59 <kmc> i'm not even sure what it is :(
02:02:00 <Sgeo> Sections of code can be typed based on having satisfied a predicate, I... think. So, branches of a cond, for example, can assume the value of the cond is of a more specific type
02:02:07 <Sgeo> If I understand it properly
02:02:15 <Sgeo> http://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-guide/occurrence-typing.html
02:02:32 <Sgeo> "Typed Racket successfully type-checks this function because the type system understands that in the "then" branch of the if expression, the predicate string? must have returned a true value."
02:03:05 <Bike> isn't that usual type inference?
02:03:05 <Sgeo> Until I saw that, pretty much assumed TR's type system would be somewhat boring
02:03:12 <Bike> actually nevermind i don't want to know
02:03:35 <kmc> so how does it reason from (string? x) => #t to x : String
02:03:39 <kmc> how general is that mechanism?
02:03:42 <kmc> what's the type of string?
02:04:37 <Bike> i'm asking because i'm mostly sure SBCL's type inferencer does this, i thought it was semi-standard in the wide wide world of lisp type inferencing
02:04:38 <Sgeo> (Any -> Boolean : String) is the type. I think it's possible to define your own predicates, but needs to be done explicitly
02:04:50 <Sgeo> (Not sure though)
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02:05:11 <kmc> what does "Boolean : String" mean
02:06:43 <Sgeo> Oh, um. This seems narrow in scope.
02:07:12 <Sgeo> kmc: that if the boolean is true, the argument was a string, if it's false, argument was not a String. Which, looking at it again, seems a bit weird
02:07:18 <Sgeo> http://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-reference/special-forms.html#%28part._.Generating_.Predicates_.Automatically%29
02:07:39 <Bike> isn't that the whole definition of a predicate
02:08:02 <Phantom_Hoover> things which communicate poorly through mutual drunkenness: the actual proof of banach-tarski
02:09:56 <pikhq> Damn. My *CPU* is at 59F.
02:11:38 <ion> That’s quite a capacitance.
02:31:18 <Gregor> BE AWARE: I am currently moving HackEgo to another system. Any changes you make between now and then may be lost.
02:31:39 <Bike> `run rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
02:31:58 <Bike> the perfect crime.
02:33:17 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/meta_bg_resize': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/batched_discard': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/lazy_itable_init': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/cgroup': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/bus/cpu/devices/cpu0': Permission
02:35:22 <Gregor> P.S. cloudatcost.com currently has a promotion, offering lifetime VPS systems for a one-time cost. Of course, "lifetime" likely means "lifetime of the soon-to-be-defunct" company, but at an entry price of $35, it doesn't have to last long to be worthwhile X-D
02:36:17 <Bike> they doing badly?
02:36:37 <Gregor> Well, they're selling lifetime service for a one-time cost, so in terms of making good business decisions, yes, they're doing badly.
02:37:13 <pikhq> They're selling lifetime service at the cost of a Raspberry Pi. So yes.
02:37:26 <pikhq> Bandwidth and electricity might be cheap, but it ain't that cheap.
02:37:56 <Bike> man, now i kind of want to get one.
02:38:10 <kmc> i'm still on EC2 because it was free for a year and then I was too lazy to switch
02:38:13 <Bike> maybe they're banking on a bunch of rubes like me who will never use $35 worth of services
02:38:14 <kmc> that's how they get you.
02:38:38 <pikhq> Consider it bought.
02:40:29 <Gregor> I can only assume that they're banking on attrition rate plus advertising (this is a "promotion", after all)
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02:43:30 <pikhq> Though, for my uses $35 might actually be overcharging. :P
02:46:28 <Sgeo> I don't even have a use in mind :/
02:48:01 <zzo38> Do you know the precise timing of 6502 interrupts in the middle of other instructions executions?
02:50:39 <kmc> mankind was not meant to know the precise timing of 6502 interrupts in the middle of other instructions executions
02:50:58 <zzo38> kmc: That's no excuse.
02:56:39 <Bike> that's true, we shouldn't exclude ladies and other people from this precise timing business
02:59:42 <pikhq> Wanna bet there's a bunch of people doing BTC mining on there?
03:00:24 <pikhq> Gregor: What's a good registrar?
03:01:14 <Gregor> pikhq: domainmonster.com
03:08:52 <pikhq> Bitchin'. I am now the proud owner of pikhq.com
03:11:37 <shachaf> can you do something about shachaf.com thx
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03:31:46 <pikhq> Now if only Charter let me do reverse DNS on a home connection easily.
03:33:25 <zzo38> I wanted to set the reverse DNS for my computer too, but I don't know how
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03:53:40 <shachaf> "Topologists, and in particular analysts, have learnt from practice that the most useful topology on the set C(X,Y) is compact-open topology, i.e. [...]. Category theory provides a theoretical reason for this: if X is Hausdorff and the exponential of X and Y in Top exists, it is the set C(X,Y), equipped with compact-open topology, and even when the exponential does not exist, this is its closest approximation."
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04:12:16 <pikhq> Huh. AMD's selling ARM Opterons.
04:22:44 <pikhq> 8-core 4-way SMP ARM. Hmmmm.
04:24:04 <kmc> what means you by "4-way SMP"
04:24:25 <pikhq> I mean 4 seperate CPUs with 8 cores each.
04:24:41 <pikhq> In a symmetric multiprocessing configuration.
04:27:20 <kmc> that is a respectable number of cores
04:29:33 <zzo38> How reasonable could a multicore system be made which has "row registers" and "column registers" which are shared between cores in the same row/column?
04:30:23 <pikhq> Isn't that fairly similar to how GPUs do things?
04:30:56 <zzo38> I would also want reprogrammable microcode, and all pipelining and caching to be explicit rather than implicit.
04:34:03 <Bike> what does that mean
04:41:23 <zzo38> It mean you have to put the instruction to tell the cache and then the microcode programs you can customize to deal with cache, and same with pipelines
04:41:27 <Sgeo> Is Duel of the Planeswalkers a reasonable game for me, or should I try to get outside and go to a Magic shop and need to keep track of physical cards?
04:41:44 <shachaf> not sure that counts as "outside"
04:42:08 <pikhq> shachaf: Relative to how much I imagine most of us get out, it does.
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04:42:50 <Sgeo> I used to go out every night to eat pizza for dinner, for maybe a few months
04:44:18 <kmc> ♫ we're up all night to get pizza ♫
04:44:18 <zzo38> It should be pipelined to execute the next instruction on every cycle even if one instruction isn't finished yet.
04:44:40 <pikhq> Amusingly, I am listening to that album right now.
04:45:10 <Bike> zzo38: does it have \rainbow{branch delay slots}
04:45:43 <Sgeo> zzo38: what do you think of these player-designed Magic cards?
04:45:43 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323625
04:45:54 <Sgeo> They're based on characters in Order of the Stick
04:46:01 <shachaf> Bike: where did you get the \rainbow{} habit
04:46:35 <shachaf> Sgeo: those cards are too good
04:47:15 <shachaf> can you use activated abilities before "at the beginning of your upkeep" things happen
04:47:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: I like this ideas of effects.
04:48:25 <zzo38> Bike: Yes it might have.
04:49:04 <zzo38> shachaf: I think they would go on the stack isn't it? (Unless it is a mana ability, or morph ability)
04:50:59 <shachaf> zzo38: i'm not sure i know how to answer my question with that
04:51:07 <Sgeo> "Untap all creatures you control. After this main phase, there is an additional combat phase followed by an additional main phase. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery."
04:51:30 <Sgeo> What if there's some effect that lets you cast sorceries as instants? Then there is not necessarily a 'this' main phase
04:52:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, you can use that only during your main phase when the stack is empty. I don't think an effect that lets you cast sorceries as instants would allow you to use this one in such a way though; I am unsure.
04:53:24 <Bike> one time i took like five minutes to explain to someone what branch delay slots were and an actual developer chimed in with "yeah, it's risc weirdness"
04:53:41 <shachaf> Sgeo: "It only creates an additional combat and main phase if it resolves during a main phase."
04:54:06 <Sgeo> I totally want a card that has an ability {X}: Gain X mana of any color you choose
04:54:17 <Bike> that's my #BranchDelaySlotMemory, post your own under hashtag #BranchDelaySlotMemory
04:55:04 <shachaf> Sgeo: there is http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50527
04:55:40 <pikhq> Can the branch delay slot be used as a form of storing state?
04:56:07 <shachaf> and http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106639
04:56:17 <Sgeo> Wasn't expecting it to actually exist
04:56:58 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't know?
04:57:58 <Bike> maybe it should be #BranchDelayMemory. thoughts, brand leveragers?
04:58:33 <shachaf> are you going for the acronym
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05:02:04 <kmc> load delay slots are weirder
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05:02:29 <pikhq> Arithmetic delay slots are also pretty funky.
05:02:47 <kmc> how do those work?
05:03:12 <pikhq> If you happen to read the result register before you should, you get some really weird shit.
05:03:22 <pikhq> The SNES had this for its multiply instruction.
05:04:16 <zzo38> pikhq: I think it is a good idea, actually, so that the program can continue to running even if the calculation takes too more cycles.
05:04:47 <zzo38> Also it is possible with explicit caching/pipelining to measure exactly the number of clock cycles you need for the program and to make self-modifying programs, which doesn't work so well with the implicit way.
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05:13:42 <kmc> zzo38: but that will happen anyway with OOE
05:15:36 <kmc> out of order execution
05:17:24 <zzo38> What are you saying will happen anyway with OOE?
05:20:24 <zzo38> Can a BlooP or FlooP program be compiled into TNT strings?
05:21:09 <Bike> kmc: arithmetic delay slots are what happens when "a = b + c; d = a + e;"'s data hazards aren't dealt with, i think
05:23:01 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Vatican_latin_atm.jpg/800px-Vatican_latin_atm.jpg meanwhile in the vatican
05:24:18 <zzo38> Bike: I didn't know there are ATMs in Vatican, but I suppose there would be, if they have banks, so that is OK
05:24:31 <kmc> zzo38: that other instructions will run while a computation completes
05:24:46 <kmc> Bike: awesome
05:24:49 <kmc> is that comic sans
05:25:01 <Bike> you can't like, hang a real processor, can you
05:25:21 <kmc> zzo38: 'explicit pipelining' sounds a bit like VLIW too
05:25:27 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, but that requires the logic internally to tell it so; my idea is to make it explicit, it only execute in the order given and the precise timing is known for everything
05:25:36 <kmc> Bike: hang how
05:25:52 <Bike> excepting bugs like f00f or whatever i guess
05:26:19 <kmc> zzo38: and yes I suppose that a BlooP or FlooP program can be compiled into a TNT string
05:26:31 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it should store VLIW in a program cache and allow it to be programmed explicitly rather than implicit; such thing are microcode caches
05:26:50 <zzo38> kmc: Do you know how to compile BlooP or FlooP program into a TNT strings?
05:29:40 <Bike> http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/27/world/asia/china-jade-rabbit-moon-rover-goodnight/ aww
05:31:07 <kmc> zzo38: I suppose that for any Turing machine M you can write a TNT predicate on variables (h,x) which is true iff h represents a Gödel-encoding of a halting computation history for M on an input Gödel-encoded as x
05:31:24 <kmc> and I forgot exactly how BlooP and FlooP work but it should be similar yeah?
05:31:50 <Bike> kmc: hang like, i was imagining the "take too many cycles" thing as benig an arithmetic bit that locks the processor, but i guess you meant more like a regular loop
05:34:40 <zzo38> kmc: It is possible for a BlooP/FlooP program to be a "test" meaning the output is yes/no only, so I thought somehow to use that; it has add, multiply, equal, less/greater, and all of those are implementable in TNT, but I don't know how, you would implement loops and CELLs
05:35:47 <kmc> zzo38: by existentially quantifying over a encoded compute history which can be arbitrarily long, I think
05:47:39 <zzo38> kmc: But how would you encode such a compute history?
05:48:03 <kmc> Gödel encoding
05:49:16 <shachaf> did you know you can apt-get install-insane to get a big words list
05:50:16 <kmc> for Turing machines, write out each state as a string t_0 t_1 ... t_{n-1} h t_n t_{n+1} ... where the t_i are tape characters and h is the state and also represents the head position
05:50:54 <kmc> then you concatenate successive states using some other character to separate them
05:51:04 <kmc> and then you Gödel encode the whole mess
05:51:17 <Bike> just godel encode fucking everything fuck
05:52:32 <kmc> classic meme
05:54:09 <kmc> it's a'ight
05:54:35 <shachaf> i bought some non-alcoholic kvas of some sort but it turns out to be carbonated or something? :'(
05:54:59 <shachaf> will i ever experience kvas
05:55:14 <kmc> it sounds kinda gross
05:55:18 <zzo38> I don't like the way Hofstadter made Godel numbering with decimal when it look like there would be a better way to do it
05:55:55 <shachaf> kmc: well i want to try it because of a book
05:56:06 <shachaf> maybe i'm better off not knowing what it's like
05:56:07 <kmc> i think the ``real way'' is 2^a * 3^b * 5^c * ...
05:56:29 <Bike> it's admirably inefficient
05:56:45 <zzo38> kmc: Is that the only kind of "real" way?
05:56:45 <shachaf> this is a good book but i can't recommend it to you :'(
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05:57:05 <shachaf> it was written in yiddish and the translation into hebrew is good but the translation into english is terrible
05:57:20 <kmc> and it's not good enough to be worth learning yiddish or hebrew?
05:57:38 <shachaf> oh, well, that's hard to answer
05:58:03 <shachaf> it's this book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motl,_Peysi_the_Cantor%27s_Son
05:58:07 <kmc> zzo38: probably not
05:58:41 <shachaf> i only tried one of the english translations. but i'm told the others are also not good
05:58:58 <zzo38> The way I was thinking to encode a brainfuck program together with its input, the low three bits correspond to the first command and so on, and then have zero encode the end of loop mark, which is the same encoding for end of the program; all higher bits become the input to the program, and EOF causes the program to read zero (although it can also be zero without EOF)
06:00:03 <zzo38> All programs will be complete in such a way, since all the higher bits will be zero regardless how many loops they have.
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06:24:04 <shachaf> "iPad Air and iPad mini with Retina display. Two ways to your valentine's heart."
06:25:04 <Bike> "i don't think that's where you attach it, dear"
06:32:15 <shachaf> Gregor: did you get a chromatic button accordion yet
07:00:24 <zzo38> How many molecules make up a diamond? Is there just one?
07:00:58 <kmc> my friend says "basically yes"
07:01:30 <ais523> a crystal is effectively a single molecule, IIRC
07:01:55 <ais523> a metal is more debatable, the concept of "molecule" is hard to express when metallic bonding is involved
07:01:58 <kmc> a covalent crystal, anyway
07:02:41 <ais523> I'd argue an ionic crystal is too, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone disagreed
07:06:31 <ais523> especially because covalent and ionic are ends of a continuum and there are probably crystals that are somewhere in between
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07:12:21 <Bike> i feel like i should be able to answer this. i have a textbook that goes over crystallography just before quantum :(
07:15:40 <kmc> ice is a crystal held together with hydrogen bonds and so I suppose it's not much like a single molecule
07:16:36 <Bike> slightly distracted by the best rendition of pachelbel's canon i've ever heard
07:16:45 <Sgeo> Dynamic scoping could be useful if you want to tamper with the iinnards of a function you're calling
07:17:08 <Sgeo> Would almost certainly want such an operation to be deliberate, though
07:17:10 <Bike> so could MY AXE
07:17:40 <ais523> kmc: yeah, hydrogen bonds (and polar bonds generally) typically go between molecules
07:17:45 <zzo38> Bike: What rendition is that?
07:17:54 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uxpylXf5fQ
07:18:10 <ais523> although I can imagine a long molecule that loops back on itself and has hydrogen bonds forming shortcuts between atom that are indirectly covalently bonded via a longer route
07:18:37 <Bike> nucleic acids do that :3
07:19:45 <kmc> Sgeo: I think dynamic scope is a really great feature for a language to have, but I'd never want it to be the default
07:20:01 <ais523> Bike: that was the example I was going to give, but I wasn't 100% sure that the weaker bonds were hydrogen bonds in particular
07:20:03 <kmc> ais523: proteins are often like that right?
07:20:10 <kmc> or that yeah
07:20:15 <ais523> and yeah, I can believe proteins do that too
07:20:16 <Sgeo> kmc: Right, but I think forbidding functions from defending themselves against a deliberate abuser of dynamic scope makes some sense
07:20:31 <Bike> ais523: yeah, base pairs are hydrogen bonds, i know that much
07:21:27 <Bike> this reminds me, i tried to look up what a ribosome was today and got confused
07:21:39 <kmc> "you are wrapping a möbius strip of videotape around the math/porn part of my mind"
07:21:39 <Bike> it's like, a protein, but multiple proteins, and also full of nucleic acids? (not the ones it's working on)
07:22:16 <Bike> there seems to be this thing where parts of proteins are considered proteins themselves. must learn further
07:22:26 <ais523> Bike: protein is like that
07:22:55 <ais523> really it's just "pretty much any chemical processing factory in the body is created via processing DNA and hoping the result self-assembles"
07:23:22 <Bike> "made of peptides" is reasonably specific
07:23:22 <ais523> now DNA is processed to create proteins, but evolution will use any chemical that happens to be lying around and is the right shape
07:23:48 <kmc> are ribosomes made largely of rRNA because they date back to RNA world?
07:24:01 <kmc> I guess that doesn't make any sense
07:24:04 <ais523> so things like ribosomes tend to be mostly made of protein chains, and to some extent other chemicals that are common inside cells
07:24:12 <kmc> but, like, bootstrapping
07:24:14 <Bike> man, thinking about how molecular bio evolved is hard.
07:24:31 <kmc> the first thing that built a protein had to be made of something other than protein
07:24:45 <kmc> so maybe it makes some sense?
07:24:53 <kmc> yeah it is hard
07:24:55 <Bike> kind of depends on what you mean
07:25:13 <kmc> life: the ultimate esolang?
07:25:15 <Bike> i mean, you can form an amino acid chain "randomly" and maybe it could run into the right catalysts for it to conform "correctly"
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07:26:11 <Bike> even extant protein phylogeny is hard http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/MyosinUnrootedTree.jpg
07:26:16 <Bike> "the one i work with"
07:29:20 <kmc> that is very confusing
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07:29:57 <kmc> this is myosin?
07:30:27 <ais523> Bike: wrt amino acid chains forming randomly and happening to make useful proteins, that's one theory as to how life started in the first place
07:31:46 <Bike> of course, this doesn't include other things i'd like to see in a really detailed reconstructive phylogeny, like how they interact with actin
07:32:05 <Slereahphone> And the RNA to aminoacid organite thing (forger the name) is itself made of RNA?
07:32:19 <Bike> you can grab myosin from like, a bug or whatever, and pair it actin from a rabbit heart and it'll still sorta work out into muscle
07:33:30 <kmc> Slereahphone: yeah, ribosomes, we were talking about that a few minutes ago
07:33:38 <kmc> ribosome is like 60% RNA and 40% protein by mass
07:34:02 <Bike> there's also lots of subtle paradigm shift improvements
07:34:17 <Bike> i forget, did i gush about that prokaryote/eukaryote energetics contrasting paper here
07:34:22 <kmc> i don't remember that
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07:35:05 <Bike> well, basically, a eukaryote has a nucleus, and a prokaryote doesn't (you probably know this), and basically in a eukaryote the transcription mechanisms are centralized (not so much the translation)
07:35:34 <Bike> in a prokaryote though it has to happen all over the place, and without mechanisms to move stuff rom the nonexistent nucleus that means you have to have a billion copies of your genome floating around everywhere to be able to translate proteins in the right place
07:35:59 <Bike> and the idea is, the energy loss here is why there aren't any really "advanced" prokaryotes (e.g. multicellular)
07:37:27 <zzo38> I read about someone made a "Hello World" program out of DNA, but they used Q instead of O. Pyrrolysine is coded by a stop codon but I don't know if someone can fix it to make pyrrolysine instead of glutamine, so that it is possible to make it "HELLOWORLD" properly rather than "HELLQWQRLD".
07:37:36 <Bike> i probably butchered the thesis, oh well http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7318/full/nature09486.html
07:38:18 <Bike> zzo38: that seems like making a "hello world program" that's a series of bits that read as "hello world" in ebcdic
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07:39:43 <zzo38> Bike: No, this is different than doing something like that; in the case I read about it is rather the result, so I don't know how you would fix it to not be considered a stop codon in that case
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07:43:13 <Bike> the result of transcription?
07:43:27 <Bike> er, translation i suppose. not that this seems like a real protein
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07:52:15 <oerjan> is pikhq still alive or has he frozen solid
07:55:08 <Bike> oh btw, if anyone actually wants to read that paper i linked but doesn't have access i know a bike who can get a pdf for you. (the bike is me.)
07:56:50 <oklopol> haha because you're called Bike
07:57:13 <Bike> i was going to say 'guy' but i'm not a guy, i'm a bike
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08:09:46 <kmc> oerjan: <pikhq> Heat fixed. Yay.
08:12:11 <oerjan> i thought it was bad enough when the heater wasn't working at 11 _celsius_.
08:12:29 <kmc> wish there were a clever fibonacci sequence based approximation for converting between °F and °C
08:13:29 <Bike> so it turns out there's a feature in chrome i miss in firefox: the billion processes thing
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08:13:48 <Bike> because flash, being flash, crashes every ten minutes, and apparently takes down all of firefox with it?
08:13:49 <oerjan> kmc: yeah 9 is so non-fibonacci and ugly
08:17:03 <oerjan> kmc: f(x) = x*(2-1/5)+34-2 hth
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13:10:15 <HackEgo> df: Warning: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory \ Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on \ - 39G 4.8G 32G 14% /hackenv
13:10:34 <Gregor> OK, plus: HackEgo is on a system with much more free space.
13:10:41 <Gregor> Minus: HackEgo no longer has access to the IRC logs.
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13:20:13 <HackEgo> grep: /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
13:21:16 <ais523> I didn't actually expect df to be able to break the sandbox
13:21:49 <HackEgo> rootfs / rootfs rw 0 0 \ none /bin hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/ 0 0 \ none /usr hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/ 0 0 \ none /dev hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/ 0 0 \ none /opt hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/ 0 0 \ none /lib hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/ 0 0 \ none /sbin hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/ 0 0 \ none /lib64 hostfs ro,nosuid,relati
13:22:07 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/mtab: No such file or directory
13:22:16 <Gregor> ais523: df doesn't break the sandbox per se, that's just a piece of information that uml does expose.
13:22:18 <int-e> (df looks at mtab)
13:22:38 <ais523> Gregor: right, that's not what I said but it is what I meant
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13:31:30 <fizzie> `run grep -l '/var/irclogs' bin/* 2>/dev/null | wc -l
13:31:36 <fizzie> `run grep -l '/var/irclogs' bin/* 2>/dev/null
13:31:37 <HackEgo> bin/anonlog \ bin/aseen \ bin/bseen \ bin/gaseen \ bin/list \ bin/log \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastlog \ bin/quine \ bin/randomanonlog \ bin/seen \ bin/seens
13:33:49 <FireFly> `run file bin/{a,b,ga,}seen
13:33:49 <HackEgo> bin/aseen: a /usr/bin/env bash script, ASCII text executable \ bin/bseen: a /usr/bin/env bash script, ASCII text executable \ bin/gaseen: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable \ bin/seen: Perl script, ASCII text executable, with very long lines
13:34:02 <FireFly> `run wc -c bin/{a,b,ga,}seen
13:34:03 <HackEgo> 258 bin/aseen \ 303 bin/bseen \ 255 bin/gaseen \ 406 bin/seen \ 1222 total
13:36:02 <ais523> HackEgo can download files from online, right?
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13:36:34 <ais523> we could perhaps create an bin/updatelogs executable that downloads the logs it doesn't currently have, then call it from all the log-related commands
13:38:17 <Gregor> ais523: It can, but that's also currently down *hurr*
13:38:21 <Gregor> I need to set up the proxy on the new system.
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14:25:09 <HackEgo> aergus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:26:38 <fizzie> Huh, I just had Chrome use 16 gigs of memory. I killed the particular process, and now all tabs are still there, except one (containing the public transportation route finder) is entirely black. (But it still has the regular content, based on the fact that the cursor changes to indicate links, with the proper tooltips, in certain regions of the blackness.)
14:27:00 <ais523> seen on reddit: when Matlab outputs to HTML, it memoizes the conversion of an equation from source to an image; the memoizer assumes that the source is the same if its hash is the same; and the hash has a space of 100000 possible values
14:28:03 <boily> good hash browns morning!
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14:30:35 <ais523> meanwhile, I have concluded that Markdown is good (albeit not perfect) for its intended use, but sucks for unintended uses (such as Reddit syntax)
14:30:53 <ais523> apart from StackFlow, but that's more of a case of being intentionally bad
14:35:03 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, markdown syntex on stackexchange sucks, specifically I hate how it wants to delimit urls with round parenthesis,
14:35:31 <ais523> b_jonas: that's because the intended URL syntax for markdown is to use [1], [2], [3], etc. then define what the references mean at the end of the document
14:35:32 <b_jonas> plus stackexchange specifically adds some deliberately stupid formatting, like the way it abbreviates links and dates
14:35:56 <ais523> but (http://…) can be used to inline the reference number
14:36:07 <b_jonas> ais523: that's ok, but it should use some other delimiters, such as angle brackets, or double quotes inside parenthesis etc, not round parenthesis
14:37:18 <b_jonas> let me try this define references later syntax
14:39:21 <ais523> really, the syntax I'd like to use is text <link>
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14:39:29 <ais523> but that suffers from being ambiguous
14:39:34 <b_jonas> plus they also allow links by HTML a tags
14:40:18 <ais523> anyway, I think there are three goals for this sort of markup syntax: a) looks like plain text, so that it can be read reasonably even without conversion to HTML; b) is quick to write in as source for an HTML conversion; c) is sanitized to avoid any unwanted output (XSS, etc.) in the resulting HTML
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14:40:29 <ais523> Markdown is meant to accomplish b), rather than a) or c)
14:40:37 * boily wants to use 「link」.
14:41:58 <lambdabot> [[0,0],[0,1],[0,2],[0,3],[0,4],[0,5],[0,6],[0,7],[0,8],[0,9],[1,0],[1,1],[1,...
14:42:28 <FreeFull> I just used it as a placeholder
14:42:35 <ais523> oh, that makes more sense
14:42:40 <b_jonas> ais523: my favorite is generally mediawiki syntax
14:42:49 <FreeFull> > (. const) each [0..9] [undefined,undefined]
14:42:51 <lambdabot> [[0,0],[0,1],[0,2],[0,3],[0,4],[0,5],[0,6],[0,7],[0,8],[0,9],[1,0],[1,1],[1,...
14:43:23 <ais523> b_jonas: MediaWiki syntax is designed for b) and c), and achieves that well
14:43:37 <ais523> hmm, I should also add d) can represent anything that you'd reasonaby want to be able to represent
14:43:38 <b_jonas> I use so many different wiki-like syntax on various webpages, which is sometimes confusing
14:43:41 <ais523> MediaWiki syntax is good at that too
14:43:53 <ais523> whereas Markdown needs a bunch of nonstandard extensions for that to work
14:44:10 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah, I have to keep looking up the syntax for http://trac.nethack4.org
14:44:22 <b_jonas> eg. some wiki syntax requires whitespace before bullets for bulleted lists, whereas mediawiki requires that the lists are started in first column, and for some wikis it doesn't matter;
14:44:41 <b_jonas> some wikis want mediawiki-style ''italic'', some want *italic*
14:45:20 <ais523> markdown appears to have *italic*, **bold**, which is something of a mockery of it all
14:45:25 <ais523> and looks awful in plaintext
14:45:52 <b_jonas> and some wikis are plain stupid -such as they'd render most of this line with a strikethrough ^and the end in all superscript
14:45:54 <ais523> I'm used to _italics_, *bold* from Usenet
14:46:26 <b_jonas> iirc stackexchange allows either _italics_ or *italics* but not ''italics''
14:47:38 <boily> ais523: don't markdown allow _italic_ and __bold__ too?
14:47:55 <ais523> but that's just even more confusing
14:48:09 <ais523> markdown doesn't appear to have a spec, btw, it's implemented differently in different places
14:48:14 <ais523> also the original impl parses via regex
14:48:17 <boily> in fact, it does. I just remembered it screws up __init__.py and suchlike.
14:48:36 <b_jonas> boily: ah yes, some wikis screw up the :D part of Data::Dumper
14:48:42 <boily> (so when you read a comment talking about python code and you suddenly see init.py, you know why.)
14:48:51 <boily> b_jonas: smiley interpolation?
14:48:53 <b_jonas> I saw Skype doing that replacement at first, but now it seems to be a trend
14:49:25 <b_jonas> it was mibbit where I saw that first
14:49:26 <boily> Skype has very interesting replacements. it understands the s/from/to/ syntax, so if you type something with a typo and want to correct it, you can do it :D
14:50:13 <ais523> why would a wiki want smileys?
14:50:19 <ais523> forums, I understand (even if I don't approve)
14:50:37 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know why ANYTHING wants smilies
14:50:44 <ais523> boily: I wonder if that's server-side or client-side, and if it's server-side, how complex a regex syntax it supports
14:50:45 <b_jonas> probably it's just a selling point or something
14:51:07 <ais523> b_jonas: one common source of malware is people offering programs you can download for free smileys
14:51:12 <ais523> I'm not even sure if that makes sense
14:51:40 <ais523> (also I have no idea how to pluralize "smiley", "smilies" looks like the plural of "smily")
14:52:06 <b_jonas> anyway, the main reason why I like MediaWiki is that it doesn't do any of these idiotic replacements:
14:52:43 <b_jonas> it doesn't try to interpret anything I type in normal text as formatting (like strikethrough or superscript or italics), nor as links (CamelCase autolink AARGH), nor as smilies
14:53:05 <ais523> it will autolink stuff starting http://
14:53:17 <ais523> although that can be suppressed using <nowiki>
14:53:29 <b_jonas> and the syntax for when I do want formatting is quite nice
14:53:51 <ais523> anyway, I don't realy mind CamelCase linking, but it's annoying when writing, say, "NetHack"
14:54:11 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but it will show those types of links with their full text, just linked. I find that reasonable.
14:54:19 <boily> ais523: I... think it's server-side. but the Servers of Skype are a Dark Place where the Code is Kept in Obscurity and One may not Peek at It.
14:54:32 <ais523> boily: then you could find out by experiment
14:54:34 <b_jonas> (well, it adds an icon which is sometimes messed up and overlaps text, but still)
14:55:26 <boily> ais523: I don't use Skype anymore. we had clients who swore by that Maligned Technology, but we pressured them into Following the Google Hangout Way. (which wasn't very wise. that thing is buggy as hell.)
14:55:49 <ais523> boily: I refuse to use Skype too; I installed Mumble recently because I needed a substitute
14:55:53 <boily> `learn smileyieses is the plural of smiley.
14:55:59 <ais523> and even though it's designed for gamers it doe a pretty good job
14:56:06 <boily> ais523: Mumble is nice.
14:58:57 <b_jonas> as for plural of smilie, I think that's not the only word ambiguous in plural
14:59:27 <b_jonas> a mild example is goody/goodie/goodies, but goody and goodie mostly means the same and just spelling variant,
14:59:48 <b_jonas> but there's some less common verb form with a more serious ambiguity, where the pronunciation differs too
15:00:21 <b_jonas> I think it was some verb ending in "e", not ending in "y" or "ie"
15:01:45 <b_jonas> I think it was ambiguous with an "ed" prefix
15:02:41 <b_jonas> no wait, it was with an "er" prefix!
15:03:31 <b_jonas> all of that is messed up, best ignore
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15:16:11 <boily> helloklopol. trhellomp. eeeeh... ^vello?
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16:28:21 <ion> Setting up DNSSEC was quite painless. The tool in PowerDNS is good.
16:42:21 <boily> what are the benefits of dnssec?
16:52:23 <boily> oh fungot. I was grepping through OpenERP addons. there are many '.po' files for translations. one of the result was 'tlh.po'. “It can't be that, ” I mumbled to myself.
16:52:23 <fungot> boily: i don't want it to run bf in its own thread?
16:52:49 <boily> fungot: running brainfsck probably is more productive than creating klingon translations for an enterprise product.
16:52:49 <fungot> boily: i've seen long lists with srfis that come with it?
16:53:20 <boily> fungot: even scheme is tainted? oh the humanity...
16:53:56 * quintopia boils boily to make hot soup on a cold winter day
16:54:08 <metasepia> KATL 291552Z 34011KT 10SM BKN250 M07/M17 A3032 RMK AO2 SLP282 T10671172
16:54:15 <boily> it's not cold, it's only -7 °C.
16:54:18 <metasepia> CYUL 291600Z 21013KT 15SM BKN045 M12/M18 A2996 RMK SC6 SLP150
16:54:26 <ion> boily: This is a rather nice set of slides: http://xs.powerdns.com/govcert/bert-hubert-dnssec-govcert-2011.pdf
16:54:55 <boily> quintopia: apparently temperatures in the midwest lately were in the -35 to -50 range.
17:01:16 <quintopia> unless it's very very hot...in which case the midwest is all dead
17:03:24 <boily> from the few stats and pictures I have seen of the Midwest, it is very sparsely populated. people there are actively few.
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17:19:52 <quintopia> isn't five months an awful long time to feature a language?
17:20:44 <kmc> "Early theorem-proving programs could accomplish very little, because they exhaustively searched the space of the seven sabbaths"
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17:36:04 <quintopia> boily: dirac parses the metar summary into a human readable format. metasepia is probably jealous
17:40:35 <boily> quintopia: it is. a human readable format will appear in the next version.
17:41:21 <quintopia> also it gives weather for other planets
17:42:06 <quintopia> (actually it parses 'Mars' as NZIR and 'Mercury' as FYLZ, which probably works out about right :P)
17:59:01 <metasepia> NZIR 292334Z 31016KT 9999 FEW025 SCT140 BKN200 M03/M07 A2906 RMK ACSL GRID NE GRID12016KT SDG/HDG LAST
17:59:38 <metasepia> FYLZ 290900Z AUTO 24004KT //// // ////// 16/12 Q1012
18:00:21 <boily> oh. NZIR: Ice Runway. FYLZ: Lüderitz. FNBG: Benguela.
18:00:44 <metasepia> FNBG 291600Z 28012KT 9999 FEW015 FEW025CB BKN250 29/21 Q1007
18:01:29 <boily> I'm a little bit squeamish about visiting a country that has a rifle on its flag.
18:02:29 <quintopia> i wonder if they'll let me bring in my own rifle
18:03:41 <boily> I can't remember if I ever held a real gun in my own hands. I'd probably manage to shoot myself in somebody's else foot with an unloaded gun.
18:04:30 <quintopia> i actually don't own a gun. they are expensive and i wouldn't have time to shoot it :\
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18:13:55 <boily> `run ls wisdom/smil*
18:14:14 <boily> hm... http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/shortlog/540d5bb46c4a is unsynchronised with the wisdom DB.
18:19:09 <oerjan> <Gregor> Minus: HackEgo no longer has access to the IRC logs. <-- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
18:22:13 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! indeed.
18:22:43 <ion> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/AAAAAAAAA!
18:23:43 <boily> THE APOCALYPSE HAS STRIKEN US! WE ARE LIVING THE UNLOGGED END TIMES!
18:24:08 * boily runs around aimlessly, wildly flaying his arms, and yelling guttural, caveman-like cries
18:24:37 * oerjan waileth and gnasheth teeth
18:25:38 <boily> dammit. my pocket knife is at home, and I need to cleanly open that chips bag...
18:28:13 <ion> What’s wrong with your chips bag if you need a knife?
18:31:11 <boily> it's a large, resealable bag. but in the meantime I found an exacto lying a few desks over. so the bag is open, and I'm munching on shrimp crackers.
18:31:29 <boily> (the stick kind, not the large roundish-wavy kind.)
18:33:22 <int-e> could HackEgo produce its own logs?
18:46:41 <oerjan> int-e: not without rewriting outside the sandbox...
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19:37:48 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
19:37:51 <FireFly> trying to use lambdabot with an edit-distance of 2 is always a bit of a russian roulette
19:37:58 <lambdabot> But where are we going to find a duck and a hose at this hour?
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19:38:33 <fungot> FireFly: how do you determine what the output is valid kipple) with not knowing quicksort? isn't that like boring?
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19:40:44 <boily> @localtime FireFly
19:40:45 <lambdabot> Local time for FireFly is Wed, 29 Jan 2014 20:44:28 +0100
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20:31:39 <HackEgo> mekeor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:46:27 <FireFly> <boily> I can't remember if I ever held a real gun in my own hands. I'd probably manage to shoot myself in somebody's else foot with an unloaded gun. ← what programming language would *that* be?
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20:52:09 <fizzie> I've used one of those air rifles, are those real guns? I guess not.
20:52:23 <kmc> i've only fired guns in latvia
20:53:01 <boily> the endless quirks of this chännel's members...
20:53:23 <fizzie> The air rifle at our summer place had this kind of a design fault that when you loaded it (it was one of those that fold around the midpoint for loading), it had a habit of automatically firing.
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21:29:04 <shachaf> kmc: the stripe ctf is already over? :'(
21:29:13 <shachaf> i thought it would be running for longer
21:39:01 * mekeor understood it after reading it the third time
21:39:02 <b_jonas> I have downloaded a set of thousands of json files. One particular field in those files always has the value of either a non-empty hash or an empty array. The empty array is probably some sort of mistake in generation and should be an empty hash, but I can't think of what mistake could cause that.
21:39:30 <b_jonas> Could someone guess what could cause that kind of thing? Like, does php have a json output function that produces such symptoms or something?
21:40:19 <b_jonas> The site has some error messages like this: "nemletezo-nemtudnimiert: Function split() is deprecated in /www/drupal.versenyvizsga.hu/htdocs/sites/all/modules/i18n/i18nstrings/i18nstrings.module on line 617." What language does that come from?
21:40:38 <b_jonas> hmm, "drupal" probably implies php
21:40:47 <int-e> yay. bash: php: command not found
21:40:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, but I mean what scripting language produces such an error
21:41:17 <int-e> but given php's odd notion of "arrays" the effect wouldn't surprise me
21:41:38 <b_jonas> int-e: ah, true! php has awk-like arrays, right?
21:41:47 <b_jonas> or lua-like arrays if you prefer
21:41:59 <oerjan> i'd expect such a thing could happen in any language which does not _have_ separate empty values for arrays and hash table-like things...
21:45:37 <int-e> b_jonas: php has associative arrays with a special case when the indexes are consecutive integers starting from 0.
21:46:33 <b_jonas> int-e: right, so awk/lua-like arrays
21:46:58 <b_jonas> which are always associative arrays but often used as plain arrays and have special support for that
21:47:08 <int-e> json_encode(array(1 => 2)); (returns '{"1":2}';) json_encode(array(0 => 1, 1 => 2)); (returns '[1,2]')
21:48:14 <kmc> javascript arrays are also kind of like that
21:48:33 <oerjan> what happens if you make an array and then remove an index in the middle of it
21:48:55 * oerjan is assuming they are mutable
21:49:00 <b_jonas> int-e: that makes it even more scary because it can apply to non-empty arrays too, thouhg not in the particular case of this field where 0 isn't used as a key
21:50:28 <FireFly> kmc: although in JS arrays are of their own subtype
21:50:52 <FireFly> (I mean, you *could* use an array instance in an associative manner, but you shouldn't)
21:51:01 <kmc> I can't remember if they're a primitive type or just an object with Array as its prototype
21:51:21 <int-e> oh wait, I see what you mean by javascript arrays. yuck.
21:51:29 <FireFly> They're just objects with Array.prototype as their prototype, yes
21:51:40 <oerjan> hm what does json_encode(array(1 => 2, 0 => 1)); return?
21:51:59 <kmc> I bet there are a lot of websites that break if you choose your username to be __proto__
21:53:00 <int-e> (I didn't realize that the array elements are actually regarded as properties.)
21:53:07 <FireFly> I wonder what was wrong with using Object.{get,set}PrototypeOf as an interface to manipulate the prototype of an object
21:53:29 <FireFly> That'd've avoided issues with __proto__
21:53:29 <int-e> oerjan: good one. {"1":2,"0":1}
21:54:03 <oerjan> ok so it only works if literally instantiated in the right order.
21:56:19 <kmc> FireFly: well then things break if you register username setPrototypeOf right?
21:56:21 <b_jonas> int-e: so those php arrays even have their pairs ordered, like ruby hashes?
21:56:41 <FireFly> kmc: no, they're "static" functions on Object rather than something on Object.prototype
21:57:30 <int-e> b_jonas: Apparently. I'm staying away from that language.
21:58:04 <b_jonas> int-e: mind you, I'm starting to think that ordered hashes _might_ be a good idea actually, for some things,
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21:58:18 <b_jonas> int-e: but that doesn't mean the order should randomly change what json object is emitted
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21:58:54 <b_jonas> int-e: it's possible that it's not really ordered though, it's just never converted back to a normal array after it gets in a state where the keys aren't continuous sequence of integers
21:59:49 <FireFly> I think the latter case is even worse, really
22:00:40 <FireFly> I think the interface it exposes shouldn't show that it's implemented in two different ways depending on if it's used in a "sequential" or "associative" manner
22:00:43 <b_jonas> on the other hand, this also shows why I don't like any of these general serialization stuff
22:01:19 <b_jonas> the ones that try to directly read and write arbitrary data structures of the language, even when the types of the language really don't map to the types of the serialization format
22:01:54 <b_jonas> I for one think people should explicitly choose what to output, reading and writing only special structures, not this generic array/hash stuff
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22:03:34 <b_jonas> for reading it's even worse than for writing, because you often get crazy security bugs in a dynamically typed language when you think you read a value of some type but it's of some other type and the same methods/functions mean completely different thigns on the two types
22:04:01 <b_jonas> like, you think you read a number x and you type x*100 and it actually replicates the contents of an array 100 times, and that's only the mildest case
22:04:31 <b_jonas> it's even worse when the deserializer attempts to bless the objects read to arbitrary classes whose names are read from the untrusted input
22:04:55 <int-e> *sneeze* - bless you!
22:07:21 <int-e> oooh. good xkcd today.
22:07:29 <int-e> (that would probably work on me)
22:13:27 <FireFly> b_jonas: I think I saw a JSON library for Rust doing something like that, mapping JSON objects to Rust structs and failing if the content of the JSON string didn't match the struct
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23:43:46 <Arufonsu> linear logic interfaces actor model agent model encapsulation object orientation just in time compilation capability based security model separation of identification and permission runtime services
23:44:38 <int-e> Hi clone-of-fungot?
23:44:38 <fungot> int-e: i'm working on fnord
23:45:11 <int-e> (Ok, that was unfair. Fungot knows how to use verbs.)
23:48:15 <fungot> FireFly: was not. any contributions would greatly help. although i have been to peoria and i believe the cmuscheme.el keybinding is c-x e for scheme-send-definition and c-x c-e for eval, does it still use " ip address style" dimension indexing like i originally suggested?
23:49:38 <FireFly> fungot: I'm pretty sure cmuscheme.el doesn't use "ip address style" dimension indexing
23:49:38 <fungot> FireFly: throw in winamp for the necessary unboxed fixnums in inner loops and to have types containing a procedure that if it is in
23:50:58 <int-e> winamp for unboxed fixnums
23:51:01 <fungot> int-e: he thinks that writing non-idiomatic code might be responsible for every patch install in future, there are three
23:51:34 <fungot> shachaf: even if our brain works slower by about a factor of 2.4 with the opt on one,
23:51:42 <FireFly> What, only three future patch installs?!
23:51:49 <fungot> int-e: i'm just not sure for myself, that's why i don't like most of scheme
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23:53:26 <FireFly> Arufonsu looks like a japanesified 'Alfons'
23:53:34 <tswett> FireFly: that's exactly what it is.
23:54:55 <lambdabot> ArrowChoice a => a b c -> a b' c' -> a (Either b b') (Either c c')
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02:26:23 <kmc> `relcome lancekates
02:26:24 <HackEgo> lancekates: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:26:55 <lancekates> I know this isn't quite the right place for it, but can I ask an ISO question?
02:28:00 <lancekates> say I have ISOs for 6 CDroms. they all, together, install the same program. Broken apart, all of the info in the ISOs can fit on 1 dvd. If I install all the stuff onto one dvd, can I install off that dvd? or am I somehow required to waste another 5 discs?
02:28:26 <kmc> that depends on how the program's installer is written
02:28:39 <kmc> whether it expects the files in an exact location on the disk filesystem, or will search around for them
02:28:47 <kmc> and in the former case, you could maybe still do it if the filenames are all different
02:29:15 <kmc> out of curiosity, how did you find #esoteric?
02:29:22 <lancekates> The filenames are all different. on disc 1 they are all xx1.blah.blah. all of disc 2 are xx2.blah.blah
02:29:52 <lancekates> I randomly picked an IRC server and, being a freemason, thought this might be good for a chat (thinking about the OTHER esoteric ;) )
02:30:04 <kmc> cool, then just try dumping them all into a single ISO 9660 filesystem on a DVD and hope for the best
02:30:17 <lancekates> once I read that y'all are programmers, I thought you might have tips.
02:30:24 <pikhq> Would this happen to be Baldur's Gate?
02:30:51 <lancekates> nope. wow, haven't heard of THAT game in years!
02:31:18 <kmc> lancekates: another option would be to burn the isos themselves to the DVD, and use some "virtual CD drive" program to mount them one by one
02:31:24 <pikhq> Yeah, but 6 CDs. What else could it be, The Sims? :)
02:31:28 <lancekates> back in the day, I had an app that could make ISOs, so I backed up all of my pictures and documents.
02:31:36 <kmc> or skip the first part if they're already on the machine you want to install on =)
02:31:46 <lancekates> but, since we've moved from CDs to DVDs, I thought I might try to reduce the collection.
02:32:22 <lancekates> but this was back in the day, back when windows 98 was hot and new.
02:32:27 <Bike> wow i read "ISO" as meaning t he standards commitee, wtf
02:32:42 <kmc> Bike: well it is, indirectly. ISO 9660
02:32:46 <lancekates> heh... all I know about that is iso9000 = paperwork.
02:32:55 <Bike> i don't need your sass
02:33:01 <Bike> wait, is that why it's "iso"
02:33:10 <Bike> lancekates: the welcome message is informative, believe it or not
02:33:22 <kmc> i was going to ask "what ISO? 9899? 14822? 9660? 10646? 3103?"
02:33:32 <kmc> pikhq: I think Riven came on 5 or 6 CDs, but you would swap them as you play, not install them
02:33:45 <Bike> i thought they were going to ask about the standardization process itself
02:33:57 <Bike> myst had a shitload of disks too. "also, final fantasy seven"
02:34:24 <Bike> one of my earliest computer memories is watching a friend's computer fascinated. the drive letters went up to /I/, man
02:34:24 <lancekates> right, programming language, but what kind of programming? CAD/CAM, gaming, office solutions, etc
02:34:45 <kmc> useless weird programming languages that we make and use for fun
02:34:46 <lancekates> I still have FFVII somewhere around here, but no playstation upon which to play it.
02:34:56 <kmc> For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>
02:35:37 <lancekates> I'll take a look. I haven't been hardcore into computers (other than using them) since college when I did some tech work, repair and sales. Now I just use them to work, study and do stuff for lodge.
02:35:38 <kmc> lancekates: Brainfuck is probably the most well-known esoteric language, although it's pretty boring compared to a lot of them
02:36:15 <lancekates> well folks, I appreciate the help. I'll check out the wiki and once my plate is a little less full, I may look into learning something new. Have a good night, all.
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02:37:59 <kmc> `relcome J_S
02:38:00 <HackEgo> J_S: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:38:14 <J_S> What's going on today
02:40:21 <kmc> not a lot for me
02:41:25 <J_S> Same here, just enjoying a quiet evening with some loud music
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05:13:46 <Sgeo> "Assuming pizza | Use DiGiorno pizza instead"
05:13:57 <Sgeo> Wolfram Alpha doesn't think DiGiorno pizza is pizza
05:14:49 <zzo38> I don't think that is what the message means.
05:35:11 <kmc> does W|A do product placement now
05:37:39 <Sgeo> "If only there was a deck that could both cast it and want to."
05:37:47 <Sgeo> (about Destructive Flow)
05:38:26 <Bike> is there a graph formalism that (at least roughly) corresponds to (at least some useful subset of) organic chemistry
05:39:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PentacycloanammoxicAcid.png i'm pretty well doomed, but still
05:57:29 <Bike> i feel like trying to come up with sensible names for every possible this-kind-of-graph is probably doomed
05:58:35 <Bike> maybe could be a case study in information linguistics though
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07:05:51 <Sgeo> "Not at all out of colour - being really good is a blue ability."
07:06:20 <shachaf> blue is the scow of colors
07:07:06 <Sgeo> A flat-bottomed boat with a blunt bow?
07:12:36 <ion> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/securitymonkey/the-worlds-worst-penetration-test-report-by-scumbagpentester-58747
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07:16:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, Duel of the Planeswalkers has an online play mode
07:16:16 <Bike> "They mention another customer's name by accident." haha
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08:28:00 <Sgeo> Does a card being literally almost useless in non-Commander affect its value much?
08:28:15 <Sgeo> Looks like Command Tower goes for around $1.50
08:29:16 <Sgeo> Wonder if there is some sort of use for a do nothing land
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08:52:07 <Bike> "MySQL configured to allow connections from 127.0.0.1. Recommend configuration change to not allow remote connections." this rules
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09:07:06 <Bike> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7485/full/nature12954.html aw yeah
09:09:17 <ion> bike: And here’s a very informative picture: http://yle.fi/uutiset/suomalaistutkija_loysi_kauan_etsityn_yksinapaisen_magneetin/7059297
09:11:05 <Bike> phys.org used the same picture :3
09:11:11 <Bike> science thing especially shiny today, study finds
09:21:03 * oerjan sees the term bose-einstein condensate and is skeptical.
09:22:42 <oerjan> because the last times i saw articles about magnetic monopoles "found", they were not fundamental particles but derived phenomena in a material.
09:22:54 <olsner> weren't magnetic monopoles the particles that the LHC would allegedly use to destroy the earth?
09:23:05 <oerjan> olsner: no those were black holes.
09:23:18 <oerjan> well, some of them at least
09:23:53 <oerjan> i'm sure i'll find someone on reddit later who explains why this is the same kind of non-fundamental stuff.
09:24:02 <Bike> what makes a particle fundamental
09:24:19 <oerjan> Bike: not composed of smaller ones?
09:24:41 <Bike> i hear everything's made of strings, man
09:25:40 <oerjan> the previous times the monopoles _were_ sort of string-made.
09:25:56 <oerjan> like, they were really the poles of magnetic strings in the material.
09:26:06 <oerjan> so not "mono" for real.
09:26:33 <Bike> starting to think "real" has lost meaning at this level
09:27:39 <olsner> wikipedia mentioned "flux tubes" as one kind of false monopole (which was really a dipole with independently moving poles, or something)
09:28:55 <oerjan> well the thing is, the behavior of materials is described by quantum field theory in the same way as fundamental physics qft, but they're _emergent_ qft's and have different, emergent particles.
09:30:33 <oerjan> so you can get things like look like magnetic monopoles in the emergent theory but are composed of smaller particles in the basic theory.
09:30:52 <Bike> so like... what kind of microscope do i need to see it to check
09:31:23 <fizzie> "Tilannetta voisi verrata kadonneiden autonavainten etsimiseen. Nyt on todistettu, että avaimet voivat olla olemassa. Tämä lisännee motivaatiota etsimiseen."
09:31:59 <Bike> like, one of those big electric ones?
09:33:26 <oerjan> Bike: electron microscopes are nice. i recall that john sidles guy i've seen commenting in some blogs works on some kind of quantum spin microscope, i'd suggest those.
09:33:48 <oerjan> (he just got banned from scott aaronson's blog again.)
09:34:28 <Bike> i saw a presentation on super (light) microscopes some weeks ago, it was weirdly retro
09:34:32 <Bike> and yes they're actually called "super"
09:35:08 <Bike> seeing light microscopy of like, proteins, is p. weird imo
09:35:40 <oerjan> (btw he's weird but i don't think there is anything wrong with his actual work.)
09:35:50 <Bike> i assume weird is why banned
09:36:24 <oerjan> well he got aaronson angry by ignoring the subject when called on being wrong.
09:37:18 <oerjan> he has this exuberant super-positive vibe always, but i think that extends to never admitting anything negative.
09:42:20 <olsner> so is the "real" monopole supposed to be some new kind of elementary particle?
09:43:22 <Bike> this jsut reminds me that i had to drop my electrostatics class -_-
09:52:12 * oklopol doesn't understand a thing
09:52:25 <oklopol> oerjan is talking about these particles and stuff like they mean something
09:53:44 <oerjan> oklopol: 's ok i only understand half a thing
09:58:44 <oklopol> you used to say "vague" a lot more btw
09:59:01 <oerjan> i vaguely recall i did
09:59:04 <oklopol> where is this newfound confidence coming from
10:00:11 <oerjan> oklopol: i don't have precise recalls any more, so the vague became redundant hth
10:56:18 <fizzie> [[ a BLACK & EMPTY screen is a sign that your ''cache'' or "memory'' are overwhelmed and can't take any more -- or you may have conflicting ''cookies''. ]]
10:56:24 <fizzie> (I'm trying to figure out why this Chrome has gotten the symptom that some pages show up entirely black (but the contents are there, links can be clicked and text copy-pasted) and also on first visit of such a page, one of the myriad Chrome processes goes into a "use 100% CPU and all memory" mode; killing the process has no observable effects.)
10:57:00 <fizzie> "While you are at it, switch-off both your modem and your router for about 30 seconds; then turn them back on again."
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12:42:58 <ion> https://soundcloud.com/fredscott-1/this-is-a-trent-reznor-song
12:55:59 <ais523> for some reason, my mind's thinking of a sound cloud as an auditory version of a tag cloud
12:56:04 <ais523> which is weird, because that isn't even a concept that makes sense
12:58:09 <oerjan> sounds like an art piece
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13:01:27 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/CaproniCa.60.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Ca.60_under_costruction.jpg/1024px-Ca.60_under_costruction.jpg such a fancy plane
13:02:12 <fizzie> ("The prototype only made one short flight on 4 March 1921 over Lake Maggiore in Italy. The aircraft attained an altitude of only 18 m (60 ft), then dived and crashed, breaking up on impact. -- Caproni had the wrecked airplane towed to shore, and announced that he would rebuild it, but that night it burned to ashes."
13:04:16 <ais523> I remember a show on TV where they gave three teams of mechanical engineers some propellors, lots of wood, and a scrapheap from which to scavenge components, also World War I-era tools
13:04:21 <ais523> and asked them to build aeroplanes
13:04:45 <ais523> they all managed to build working aeroplanes in just two days, although only one of the teams was crazy enough to attempt to fly it more than a few metres off the ground
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13:28:36 <quintopia> ais523: junkyard wars, extreme version?
13:28:59 <ais523> quintopia: yeah, it was a special episode of Scrapheap Challenge, the UK series that Junkyard Wars is based on
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13:36:28 <boily> good unsynchronized morning!
13:42:42 <boily> did you have any recent snowfalls? meteorite falls? alien falls? zombie falls?
13:45:33 <ais523> boily: there were some very minor snowfalls here, the snow didn't settle
13:45:45 <ais523> I didn't observe any meteorites, aliens, or zombies falling
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13:47:52 <quintopia> boily: just that one snowfall on monday!
13:48:07 <boily> oh. nothing to worry about, then.
13:48:11 <quintopia> boily: but it shut down the city for two days so far
13:50:34 <quintopia> not so much the snow, but the ice on the roads and the wrecks
13:53:25 <ais523> the wrecks would be a problem even without ice on them, wouldn't they?
13:54:03 <ais523> (some day, it seems possible that my tendency to see the unintended parsing of a sentence will lead to problems)
13:58:11 * boily ambiguously mapoles ais523 (but only lightly, as no particular offence was made)
13:59:56 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
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14:08:05 <boily> aaaaaurgh! when will the next Haskell Weekly News be?
14:10:42 <boily> quintopia: can I ais523ly misinterpret that? :D
14:10:57 <boily> what do you usually get for breakfast?
14:11:03 <quintopia> boily: only if you can carry a bed :D
14:11:20 <boily> quintopia: I was thinking more along the lines of a motorized bed.
14:11:23 <quintopia> boily: i usually eat cereal but i'm thinking of making eggs today
14:11:58 <boily> eggs in the morning are good. two eggs, bacon, «patates rissolées», two toasts, a large glass of OJ and a cup of coffee.
14:12:26 <boily> but then, my usual fare is the same as yours. a bowl of cereals with yogurt and a glass of juice.
14:13:16 <quintopia> i'm not sure what rissolees means, but i'm going to pretend it says hash browns
14:13:31 <boily> http://lacuisinedestelle.unblog.fr/files/2009/06/dsc02809.jpg
14:14:15 <boily> mcdonald's hash browns are my hangover cure.
14:15:49 <quintopia> oh that. yeah i've totally had that for breakfast
14:16:03 <quintopia> you know cuz cutting onions in the morning
14:16:34 <quintopia> also mcdonald's "hash browns" are not hash browns
14:16:48 <quintopia> hash browns are fried on a griddle, not in a deep fryer
14:19:36 <boily> cutting onions in the morning is dangerous. there are more chances of me cutting a finger off than the onion itself.
14:21:02 <quintopia> have you every experienced the joy of waffle house
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14:22:24 <boily> quintopia: no, not yet.
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14:23:56 <quintopia> boily: if you ever come down this way...
14:25:12 * boily exclaims: “WAFFLES!”
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15:05:28 <ion> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/973736766/cybermatrix-100
15:05:37 <ais523> I am currently very angry with how my work is (or isn't) going
15:06:00 <ais523> anyone have a copy of the proof that equivalence is decidable in typed lambda calculus handy?
15:15:56 <ais523> ah, found it via Wikipedia
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15:18:05 <boily> I should have learned a long time ago to psychologically prepare myself each time a link is presented in this chännel.
15:18:14 <boily> ion: this is vile.
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15:24:20 <int-e> fungot could learn from the guy. "i only have diagrams. however, the processor it'll run on is a proprietary hardware containing 4 quantum engines about the size of a shooter marble."
15:24:20 <fungot> int-e: meh... it's not like you will starve because they ate your lunch, riastradh. :) i'm going to have to compete with common lisp
15:24:48 <int-e> (is "quantum" a brand name that one should know?)
15:29:11 <ais523> boily: you could do what I do, and avoid clicking links on IRC except in really extreme circumstances
15:38:51 <boily> fungot: what is the quantic of a quantum?
15:38:51 <fungot> boily: ( there are other implementations out there. one was a real wtf piece of string
15:39:04 <boily> fungot: string theory is indeed very wtfing.
15:39:04 <fungot> boily: accomplish the same multiple tasks as reading from the second lisp interpreter i ever wrote a compiler for it
15:39:26 <boily> ais523: I can't resist the tempting allure of beautiful links.
15:40:00 <ais523> boily: for a while I actually configured my client to edit them out
15:40:43 <ais523> nowadays, I went for the less extreme option of just removing the coloration
15:40:57 <boily> there is link colouration?
15:41:47 <ais523> it's generally about type systems for hardware compilation
15:41:57 <ais523> however, none of the type systems actually seem to work :-(
15:42:40 <quintopia> also the fact that i was in bad mental and emotional state that leads to nonproductivity
15:45:05 <ais523> # spent 1.47s within main::recursive_id which was called 100001 times, avg 15µs/call:
15:45:07 <ais523> # 100000 times (1.47s+-1.47s) by main::recursive_id at line 4, avg 0s/call
15:45:08 <ais523> # once (24µs+1.47s) by main::RUNTIME at line 7
15:47:36 <ais523> I guess this problem affects absolutely everything that wants to combine recursion and resource bounds
15:48:31 <quintopia> does that read 'this process took 1.47s plus or minus 1.47s'?
15:49:34 <ais523> quintopia: no, the recursive calls took 1.47 seconds directly, 0 seconds if you also include indirectly called functions
15:49:52 <ais523> thus the profilier interprets it as 1.47 seconds for the recursive calls and -1.47 seconds for its children
15:50:33 <ais523> it's the only way to make the numbers add up
15:51:49 <ais523> yeah, and my research doesn't like it either
15:52:57 <ais523> if I do something as simple as \f.f(f(0)) (of type (int->int)->int), in a call by name system, it's easy to prove that the amount of time the function spends calling its argument is more than the amount of time it spends running in total
15:54:10 <quintopia> right, of course. everyone knows that parts of processes take more time than the whole process together
15:54:19 <ais523> it's because two copies of the argument run concurently
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15:55:03 <quintopia> concurrency is weird, but i'm not sure that's a sensible way to model it
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15:56:45 <ais523> I'm not sure what /is/ a sensible way to model it, though
15:59:29 <quintopia> me neither. i take it sums and averages behave badly
16:00:19 <boily> quintopia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi-calculus ?
16:01:30 <ais523> boily: actually using process calculi is a common method of working round these problems
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16:54:05 <Slereahphone> We are currently doing some exception handler thing
16:54:48 <Slereahphone> And the function does not work so well (it's a task manager)
16:55:08 <kmc> mipsistance
16:55:10 <ais523> I'm confused already :-(
16:55:20 <ais523> like, does this program have anything to do with MIPS in particular?
16:55:26 <ais523> apart from running on it?
16:56:03 <ais523> I thought MIPS was a processor, not a language
16:56:12 <ais523> (also a fictional rabbit, but that's unlikely to be the meaning you mean)
16:58:21 <Slereahphone> So I just did a load address to the next task on some register
16:59:26 <quintopia> so...there are people here who grok MIPS?
16:59:45 <Slereahphone> At first I thought the problem came from the timer that triggered the interrupt, so I reset it to 0
17:00:42 <kmc> i don't think that's true
17:00:53 <ais523> yep, I know multiple asms but not MIPS
17:01:22 <Slereahphone> The initials stand for "MIPS Is Popular in School"
17:01:56 <Slereahphone> At least that's what the #esoteric people told me last time!
17:02:39 <ais523> really, I'm not sure what asm architecture you're meant to start with
17:02:46 <ais523> at university they taught us PIC16F asm
17:03:14 <ais523> which is kind-of weird because it has one register (two if you count the stack pointer, but that's three bits long) and less than a kilobyte of memory
17:03:22 <ais523> and the instruction counter is memory-mapped rather than being a register
17:03:32 <ais523> (or if you look at it a different way, the /entirety of memory/ is registers)
17:04:13 <ais523> actually like a quarter the memory addresses are memory-mapped to something, but according to the docs it's perfectly OK to use them to store values if they're not going to get spontaneously overwritten
17:04:37 <ais523> and I think all instructions run in exactly two cycles, apart from jumps that take 4
17:05:00 <Slereahphone> I do like a processor that does not give a fuck
17:05:46 <Slereahphone> I'll try to get a mips debugger tonight, see what's up
17:06:24 <Slereahphone> We did not actually program any function on a computer
17:06:53 <Slereahphone> And then we had to write an entire program ourselves
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18:12:37 <quintopia> at Georgia Tech, the relevant class has us build a microprocessor in some logic hardware design program, and write the FSM for it, then create an assembly language and assembler for it, then write assembly programs targeted to it
18:12:45 <quintopia> we never learned any "real" assembly languages
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18:13:54 <int-e> sounds more real to me than writing mips code and having it run on the spim emulator :)
18:14:20 <HackEgo> MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
18:15:52 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ \ \ ⌨ \ ⊥ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠
18:16:19 <int-e> `` echo 'SPIM Pretends It's MIPS' > wisdom/spim
18:16:20 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
18:16:30 <int-e> `` echo "SPIM Pretends It's MIPS" > wisdom/spim
18:18:45 <quintopia> you wouldn't have errored it the first time if you'd used `learn :P
18:19:10 <kmc> oh is `` an alias for `run? neat
18:19:45 <int-e> I'm still not sure whether that's intentional or not.
18:20:33 <int-e> Well, `run is built into the bot. `` executes bin/`
18:21:27 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
18:23:16 <boily> back from lunch, and there are new wisdom entries.
18:23:50 <int-e> huh, `learn looks strange.
18:24:23 <int-e> and darn, is there a new URL for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? Gregor?
18:25:44 <int-e> Ah. $1 is the whole string, an then it makes sense. Though it's kind of funny that it bothers to calculate $info and then uses $1 for the contents anyway :)
18:30:31 <boily> an ethen is an ettin that happens after.
18:32:55 <boily> a vietnamese soup with chicken gizzard, heart, liver and white meat.
18:33:30 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
18:33:34 <ais523> that wisdom ls look a lot like mojibake, but I don't understand the encodings
18:33:38 <boily> (we were 10 colleagues who went to a nice restaurant to celebrate Tết)
18:33:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/canary
18:33:44 <ais523> unless it's mojibake for a particularly weird character set
18:33:50 <ais523> it probably is, actually
18:33:58 <ais523> FireFly: you really don't need to pastebin that :-)
18:34:10 <boily> ais523: the mojibake is intentional. I had a fun time transcribing it into \LaTeX{}.
18:34:21 <FireFly> Well, I was thinking of ways to figure out <int-e> and darn, is there a new URL for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? Gregor?
18:34:32 <ais523> I forgot half the entries in wisdom were for the purpose of trolling you
18:34:34 <quintopia> boily: and every one has Tếttin the same thing?
18:34:38 <FireFly> on the off chance that the URL wouldn't be hardcoded
18:35:16 <boily> quintopia: oh no. a few had regular phở, others lunch combos, and the rest bún thịt nương.
18:36:04 <quintopia> indeed, when i tried to use it to be serious, it got deleted. lesson learned.
18:36:07 <ais523> this channel is entirely too light-hearted for me :-(
18:36:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :-D: not found
18:37:02 <HackEgo> bash: :-D: command not found
18:37:43 <HackEgo> cat: :-D/:-D: Not a directory
18:38:18 <HackEgo> File: `:-D' \ Size: 1 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 1024 regular file \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 664672 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2014-01-30 18:37:27.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2013-11-13 20:20:49.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2014-01-29 12:39:20.000000000 +0000 \ B
18:39:04 <kmc> `` echo ☺ > :-D
18:39:42 <kmc> touch doesn't insert a newline
18:39:43 <int-e> quintopia: echo > :-D would be my guess. 'touch' creates empty files.
18:39:59 <int-e> (if the file does not exist. obviously.)
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18:40:08 <quintopia> having a smileyface available seems actually useful
18:40:35 <kmc> is a more amusing way to get an empty file named ":-D"
18:40:50 <boily> `` echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nod -Ax -tx1z -v $@' >bin/hd
18:40:56 <boily> `` chmod 0755 bin/hd
18:41:04 <HackEgo> 000000 e2 98 ba 0a >....< \ 000004
18:41:10 <boily> aaaah, much better.
18:41:25 <int-e> oh. "hex dump", not "head".
18:41:51 <boily> quintopia: I have it as an alias in my .bashrc. it's more interesting to have it as hex than octal.
18:41:58 <boily> s/than/rather than/
18:42:26 <quintopia> i was thinking of going to the boardgame night tomorrow night
18:43:28 <int-e> boily: maybe leave off the 'z' though?
18:44:51 <boily> quintopia: oh, boardgame nights are goot nights :D
18:45:19 <boily> (I spent a large portion of last Saturday playing eclipse with my bro and his girlfriend.)
18:46:15 <kmc> i don't like board games that much but i enjoy boardgame nights cause it seems to be the standard sort of social event among people i like and people who are like me
18:47:23 <Gregor> <FireFly> Well, I was thinking of ways to figure out <int-e> and darn, is there a new URL for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? Gregor? // Whoops :)
18:47:29 <Gregor> Throw it on the pile of things to fix ^^´
18:47:36 <boily> int-e: what does “z” do?
18:48:22 <int-e> boily: add printable characters at the end
18:48:53 <boily> kmc: I like the abstract strategy classics, and games with large hexagons.
18:49:39 <kmc> most games just make me feel stupid :/
18:49:39 <int-e> boily: (that's the >....< part above. It's useful on a shell, but looks confusing on IRC, imho.
18:50:18 <boily> int-e: good point. and thanks for unfungotting your parenthesises.
18:50:18 <fungot> boily: but for s-expression editing and alignment ( not indentation!)
18:50:19 <quintopia> boily: yay hex boards. but risk is good too. or square tile games like carcassonne
18:50:42 <boily> quintopia: indeed. carcassonne is an hex game that has identity troubles, imho.
18:51:06 <boily> quintopia: you should try eclipse some day. that thing is addictive.
18:51:13 <quintopia> boily: or card games like hanabi or tichu :D
18:54:02 <quintopia> woot just picked up a level 481 weapon in IdleRPG :D
18:56:55 <b_jonas> ais523: it's just hit me how long I've been out of touch with Magic: the Gathering really:
18:57:21 <b_jonas> the last set I've bought cards from is Scars, which is now three years ago
18:57:39 <quintopia> boily: microbricks board games! http://microbricks.blogspot.com/2009/02/its-all-fun-and-games-until-someone.html
18:58:52 <ais523> b_jonas: Scars is /recent/ for me
18:59:03 <ais523> the last set I've bought cards from is Lorwyn
18:59:17 <b_jonas> ais523: well, as I've been out of touch, Scars is also recent for me
18:59:36 <b_jonas> but it's still three years ago
19:00:44 <ais523> I guess I'm of the opinion that Magic would be a better game if they just kept tweaking in an attempt to make the best format they could, rather than trying to reinventing the game every three months
19:01:01 <kmc> but then how would they sell new cards
19:01:21 <ais523> that's the problem :-(
19:01:34 <ais523> they don't sell new cards to me anyway, though
19:01:49 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think just tweaking would lead to a good game,
19:03:11 <ais523> well starting from scratch is likely to be even worse
19:03:14 <b_jonas> M:tG is appealing because there's such a large choice of cards, so new cards _are_ good for it,
19:03:43 <boily> b_jonas: I've been told by the HR rep. at my new job to brin my decks :D
19:03:44 <b_jonas> and it's not really reinvented that fast if you're only a casual player and don't try to go for Standard.
19:04:12 <b_jonas> I'm not saying the current system is perfect, but it's not that bad really.
19:04:31 <b_jonas> boily: really? what kind of job is that?
19:04:31 <quintopia> oh dear i should start getting dressed
19:04:49 <boily> quintopia: holy fungot that looks awesome.
19:04:49 <fungot> boily: i predict my question will be forgotten in a few
19:04:55 <b_jonas> boily: did they want to see your decks before or after they decide to hire you?
19:05:00 <boily> quintopia: (re. the microbricks. not you being nude.)
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19:05:17 <quintopia> boily: i'm not nude. but i will be in a moment. and then i will look awesome.
19:05:25 <boily> fungot: don't worry, I already forgot what it was to be forgotten.
19:05:30 <kmc> hot nude fungots in your area
19:05:31 <fungot> kmc: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ tuppersself-referentialformula.html is a cheat, though, that one
19:05:38 <quintopia> boily: also, from now on, quadrilaterals will be called "tetrapleurs"
19:05:45 <boily> b_jonas: ha ha ha :D after. I signed the contract yesterday night.
19:06:08 <boily> `learn tetrapleur is the new name of quadrilaterals.
19:06:49 <boily> b_jonas: I'll be doing CAD for dentists.
19:06:58 <b_jonas> boily: I did mention M:tG in my cv (because, you know, I don't really have any better hobbies I can show off), but I don't think it mattered much
19:07:03 <boily> quintopia: http://www.workopolis.com/FR/recherche-emploi/emplois?s_kwcid=TC|7918|workopolis||S|e|19220852949&lg=fr&gclid=CJz5mZfMprwCFa5DMgodRgsAsA
19:07:16 <kmc> listing hobbies in CVs is weird
19:07:22 <kmc> I know it's a thing but it's still weird
19:07:35 <boily> kmc: I do list the fact I have a certificate in Japanese, and classical piano.
19:07:55 <b_jonas> boily: those are marketable skills
19:08:12 <quintopia> `echo "Don't you mean \"tetrapleur\"?" > wisdom/quadrilateral
19:08:17 <HackEgo> "Don't you mean \"tetrapleur\"?" > wisdom/quadrilateral
19:08:18 <kmc> because it's usually not relevant to the jobs you're applying for
19:09:02 <quintopia> ``echo "Don't you mean \"tetrapleur\"?" > wisdom/quadrilateral
19:09:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
19:09:06 <kmc> and because selecting employees for "culture fit" or whatever is a great way for unintentional bias to sneak in
19:09:09 <ais523> need a space after the ``
19:09:17 <quintopia> `` echo "Don't you mean \"tetrapleur\"?" > wisdom/quadrilateral
19:09:29 <ais523> kmc: and if you're being cynical, a great way for intentional bias to sneak in without being detected
19:09:37 <kmc> the college admissions essay was invented in the 20s to keep Jews out of Harvard
19:11:02 <b_jonas> kmc: but consider that I'm young and didn't have much work experience when applying, but I do have to write something in the cv so that was two lines of padding
19:11:12 <quintopia> boily: your next language idea: brainfungot
19:11:12 <fungot> quintopia: ah. sorry, i thought i'd use scheme again.
19:11:18 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah, I'm not faulting you for it or anything, I just think it's a weird practice overall
19:11:25 <quintopia> (apparently it shall be a scheme derivative)
19:11:43 <ais523> I just had a silly idea
19:11:54 <ais523> Lisp derivative that's neither imperative nor functional
19:12:03 <ais523> actually that's probably just Prolog
19:12:12 <kmc> The Reasoned Schemer is a fun book
19:12:22 <boily> quintopia: I need something that starts with “y” for my next language. I created “betterave”, “aubergine” and then “zucchini”, so the next one'll be a vegetable with “y”.
19:12:30 <quintopia> ais523: how about a concatenative lisp?
19:12:35 <int-e> quintopia: will programs with balanced parentheses be rejected as syntactically incorrect?
19:12:44 <kmc> most concatenative languages are imperative and/or functional, aren't they?
19:12:48 <ais523> Prolog is a much better homoiconic language than Lisp is, because it's almost entirely homoiconic (only exception I know of is :-) without being ugly
19:12:50 <b_jonas> quintopia: isn't that sort of a contradiction?
19:12:50 <kmc> these paradigms aren't really mutually exclusive
19:13:02 <kmc> but I think you can argue that logic programming is fundamentally non-imperative
19:13:11 <ais523> also, wow, that's the first time I've ever tried to write a ":-" at the end of a paren group and created a smiley by mistake as a result
19:13:43 <b_jonas> ais523: in prolog, ':-' is just an ordinary infix operator too syntax-wise
19:13:44 <kmc> what's a functional logic language? maybe one where unification variables can take on function (or predicate) values
19:13:52 <ais523> I find it very hard to describe what cut does in non-imperative terms
19:13:53 <quintopia> ais523: what is "homoiconic" and is $ homoiconic?
19:13:56 <kmc> ais523: hm, that's true
19:14:14 * kmc should learn how Twelf works one of these days
19:14:18 <ais523> quintopia: homoiconic languages are languages where there's no distinction between parse trees of the source, and data manipulated by the language
19:14:28 <ais523> Lisp is the most famous example
19:14:38 <b_jonas> I don't like langugaes being homoiconic though
19:15:05 <b_jonas> I tolerate them because they exist for historical reasons, but I don't like them
19:15:09 <quintopia> so what would you call eodermdrome
19:15:29 <fungot> b_jonas: anyway i was happily using a fnord is a good thing.
19:15:52 <kmc> oh Mercury is described as a functional logic language
19:15:53 <ais523> eodermdrome is a language where code is blurred with data in a different way
19:16:07 <b_jonas> what's "eodermdrone" really?
19:16:08 <ais523> it's very hard to manipulate graphs in eodermdrome
19:16:12 <ais523> b_jonas: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
19:16:18 <kmc> also Rust is the third Google hit for "mercury programming language" o_O
19:16:35 <ais523> I have a macro in my IRC client for linking to esolangs
19:16:41 <ais523> it comes up a lot, when the channel's actually ontopic
19:16:48 <quintopia> ais523: and what is cpressey's crazy metacircular interpreter thingamabob i can't remember the name of
19:17:55 <ais523> I dunno, but if it's a) by cpressey and b) not specifically designed to have a particular classification, it's probably unclassifiable
19:18:20 <ais523> cpressey and I have a similar tastes for beauty in esolangs
19:18:20 <kmc> is there a distinction between a metacircular interpreter and a merely self-hosting one? i've heard of such a distinction but wondering what this channel thinks
19:18:44 <ais523> kmc: there is in Feather, I think
19:19:00 <metasepia> yucca definition: any of a genus ('''Yucca''') of sometimes arborescent plants of the agave family that occur in warm regions chiefly of western North America and have long sword-shaped often stiff fibrous-margined leaves on a usually woody base and bear a large panicle of white blossoms.
19:19:08 <boily> quintopia: yucca it is.
19:19:17 <b_jonas> ais523: incidentally, I think prolog is homoiconic in a much more serious way than scheme.
19:19:26 <ais523> coppro: elliott: Sgeo: you're all in the 4 days notice for deregistration from Agora
19:19:44 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah, the arithmetic is a good example of that
19:20:37 <b_jonas> ais523: not just arithmetic
19:20:41 <quintopia> boily: and then courge musqeé because it makes the best pies!
19:20:50 <ais523> b_jonas: that's why I said "example"
19:21:20 -!- SeeNoEvil has left.
19:21:27 <quintopia> boily: yes, even better than pie of citrouille
19:21:49 <boily> “pie of citrouille”. c'est parce que tsé, ça se dit pas genre vraiment très de même, là là.
19:22:34 <ais523> I guess one requirement for a homoiconic language is that it has an eval
19:22:45 <ais523> hmm… would you consider Underload homoiconic?
19:23:26 <kmc> ais523: what's the distinction in Feather?
19:23:33 <ais523> kmc: I'm not entirely sure
19:24:03 <ais523> Feather is one of those esolang ideas that probably actually works but I have no idea how
19:24:26 <ais523> it's also something of a meme in this channel
19:24:29 <ais523> because I refuse to work on it
19:24:30 <b_jonas> ais523: is postscript homoiconic?
19:24:45 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't really know postscript, although given that it's concatenative, it has a chance
19:24:54 <quintopia> boily: i'm allowed to mix languages. and walk with squashes on my legs
19:25:15 <kmc> the distinction i've heard is that a metacircular interpreter is a self-hosting interpreter which represents (some of) the object language's constructs using exactly the same way in the meta-language
19:25:52 <kmc> you can write a Scheme interpreter in Scheme but if your representation for a cons pair is not a cons pair, then it's not metacircular
19:26:02 <quintopia> boily: and then daikon. the only vegetable that starts with d
19:26:30 <kmc> except even the famous metacircular evaluator in SICP doesn't represent everything this way
19:26:44 <kmc> cause you want to be explicit about closures and environments
19:26:44 <boily> quintopia: the 大根 will be glorious. I mean, so far through the alphabet, I'll have some experience designing languages.
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19:29:11 <boily> quintopia: xigua? as in 西瓜?
19:29:22 <boily> quintopia: «navet» is masculin, so «le navet».
19:29:46 <quintopia> by the time you have that many languages you'll be misgendering things just for fun
19:30:28 <boily> I disagree! oranges are better! nah!
19:30:45 <quintopia> yes i disagree too. i like sherbets
19:32:20 <quintopia> boily: what kind of orange? navel? mandarin? clementine?
19:34:17 <quintopia> then maybe you should do navel orange for your last language. assuming you're willing to branch out into fruits
19:35:12 <b_jonas> ais523: wow, this eodermdrone looks like it's not very convenient to write programs in
19:35:16 <quintopia> and i will make a derivative called navy blues
19:35:20 <ais523> b_jonas: that's typical of esolangs
19:35:46 <boily> quintopia: to branch off into fruits. I see what you did there...
19:36:25 <quintopia> boily: yes. i did some branch prediction.
19:37:03 * boily mapoles quintopia with a mapole branch
19:37:32 <ais523> b_jonas: my goal in esolang designs is basically to discover new models of computation
19:37:51 <quintopia> b_jonas: all turing-complete esolangs are trivial to program in once you've built a compiler from some more common language.
19:37:57 <ais523> sure, most of the time most of them are useless, but at least it's expanding the horizons of possibility
19:38:20 <ais523> quintopia: if it's O(2^(2^n)) it's a pain to debug, though
19:38:54 <quintopia> ais523: what? don't esolangers have a ton of free time on their hands?
19:39:25 <ais523> quintopia: yeah but it's hard to grasp just how stupidly slow that computational class is
19:39:37 <quintopia> ais523: anyway, all you have to do is write a proof that your compiler works. who cares if the programs it generates ever get run.
19:39:59 <ais523> quintopia: I'm just annoyed because every time I do that, the compiler turns out not to work
19:44:34 <b_jonas> ais523: does eodermdrone allow non-ascii letters?
19:44:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I left that unspecified
19:44:52 <ais523> it's more of a challenge if you try to avoi them
19:44:59 <b_jonas> if the number of letters wouldn't be limited to 26, it might not be as difficult to program as I first thought
19:47:22 <b_jonas> yes, I think you could simulate a sane pointer machine in eodermdrone not in a not too difficult way, though you might need more than 26 letters
19:49:49 <ais523> there's a BCT interp in less than 26 on the article
19:50:17 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but BCT itself isn't easy to program in,
19:50:46 <b_jonas> whereas a pointer machine is, in the sense that you can compile or interpret a program from a sane language in O(n log n) time,
19:51:21 <b_jonas> I mean the runtime of the pointer machine would be O(n log n) if n is the runtime of the original program,
19:52:09 <b_jonas> and the pointer machine is sort of efficiently simulated by eodermdrone in that it needs only a constant number of replacements for each statement in the pointer machine.
19:52:39 <b_jonas> whereas if you compile something to BCT that I think can cause a quadratic slowdown
19:53:04 <b_jonas> I don't really understand BCT, mind you
19:53:16 <b_jonas> the description on esolang wiki isn't too clear
19:53:34 <ais523> b_jonas: you could try reading http://esolangs.org/wiki/DownRight
19:53:53 <ais523> which is TC for much the same reason
19:55:50 <ais523> and if it's just that you don't understand the explanation, there's another explanation in the example program on http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow (although StackFlow is unrelated, apart from having a BCT interp)
19:56:18 <b_jonas> the problem is that I don't understand the DEFINITION of BCT
19:56:40 <b_jonas> let me check if there's a small interpreter in a sane language for it
19:56:44 <ais523> b_jonas: do you understand cyclic tag?
19:56:53 <ais523> as in, is the problem with BCT the syntax or cyclic tag the langauge
19:57:07 <ais523> the StackFlow program has another explanation of the definition, but I can try to do it in-channel if you like
19:57:08 <b_jonas> the problem is the CT language
19:57:21 <ais523> basically, you have a program, and one queue
19:57:29 <ais523> the queue contains "run" and "skip"
19:57:43 <ais523> repeatedly, you pop the queue, if you pop a "skip" you move to the next comman in the program
19:57:45 <b_jonas> damn, the wiki doesn't point to any non-obfuscated interpreter
19:58:05 <ais523> and if you pop a "run" you enqueue all the elements of the current command, and then after that move to the next command in the program
19:58:26 <b_jonas> what does "current command" mean?
19:59:01 <ais523> it starts at the first command
19:59:09 <ais523> and goes back to the start if it moves off the end
19:59:32 <b_jonas> ok, but then what does all elements of the current command mean? isn't the current command a single bit in the program?
19:59:54 <b_jonas> what type is the program then?
19:59:58 <ais523> in the BCT encoding, the string is (IIRC) made out of 10 and 11, separated with 0
20:00:13 <ais523> the program is "cyclic list of lists of queue elements"
20:00:44 <b_jonas> I still don't understand but it's sort of clearer now
20:00:56 <b_jonas> what I'd like to see is a non-optimized non-obfuscated implementation really
20:01:57 <ais523> I made a Perl cyclic tag interp for the Wolfram Turing machine thing, but it's actually really hacky
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21:22:58 <boily> oerjan: was that a hello-FireFly-boily combo twh?
21:27:52 <metasepia> ENVA 302120Z 07006KT 040V100 CAVOK M02/M10 Q1022 RMK WIND 670FT 14007G17KT
21:28:16 <oerjan> they say our ridiculously dry weather may last till mid february
21:28:39 <metasepia> CYUL 302100Z 14010KT 15SM FEW140 BKN210 M05/M12 A3013 RMK AC2CI5 SLP206
21:29:11 <boily> we're having a record dry January. there's less than a third of our regular snow.
21:34:06 <oerjan> with accompanying wildfires.
21:34:51 <boily> January wildfires? you sure you're in the right hemisphere?
21:35:41 -!- ais523 has quit.
21:35:58 <oerjan> yes, it's ridiculous. they've temporarily outlawed outdoor fires now.
21:36:30 <oerjan> it's so dry the heath is burning at below freezing degrees
21:37:15 <oerjan> the first wildfire burnt 55 houses on a small peninsula
21:37:47 <oerjan> (not just in one place, either, it spread to 3 different villages.)
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21:38:29 <oerjan> the second wildfire is on a bigger island, they've managed to keep it away from settlements so far.
21:39:58 <metasepia> ESSA 302120Z 13013KT 9999 BKN016 M03/M06 Q1028 R01L/410153 R08/410150 R01R/410159 TEMPO BKN013
21:39:59 <oerjan> miraculously no one has died yet.
21:40:19 <boily> FireFly is living in a moist Sweden.
21:40:29 <boily> oerjan: that's good.
21:40:41 <FireFly> I'm trying to figure out which of the numbers is moistness
21:41:12 <FireFly> moisture* is probably the correct word
21:42:02 <oerjan> oh wait there were 3 wildfires, also that one in lærdal a couple weeks ago. which got some international coverage.
21:42:05 <olsner> boily: it's actually finally snowy sweden (mostly, anyway)
21:42:46 <oerjan> FireFly: the /M06 dewpoint thing
21:42:51 <olsner> wildfires in norway? at this time that is actually ridiculous :S
21:45:26 <oerjan> they say it's because of the huge high-pressure area in western russia
21:46:05 <oerjan> it keeps all the moist low-pressure areas from entering
21:47:33 <metasepia> EFHK 302120Z 13009KT 9999 FEW014 M12/M16 Q1040 NOSIG
21:48:12 <oerjan> well the dewpoint tells how dry the air is, iiuc
21:48:25 <olsner> newspapers were warning for the RUSSIAN COLD here earlier, maybe you got the RUSSIAN DROUGHT instead
21:48:41 <fizzie> The Norwegian fires have been making the headlines in Finnish papers.
21:50:11 <olsner> apparently nothing about it in sweden ... it's more interesting that someone made a web site for searching public court documents
21:50:38 <olsner> that and 600 cases of norovirus
21:55:30 <fizzie> The Swedish website made the news here, too.
21:55:43 <fizzie> Something about how it'd be unambiguously illegal in Finland and whatnot.
21:55:59 <fizzie> At least according to a Noted Expert in Something or Other.
21:56:29 <oerjan> doctor of somethingology
21:56:51 <olsner> I think anything based on public documents (which the site *claimed* to be) would at least have to be ambiguously illegal
21:57:13 <olsner> but maybe only The Government has the right to spread public documents
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22:07:06 <oerjan> here in norway there was just some noise with someone complaining about mobile banking apps having too much access to the phone
22:10:49 <oerjan> from the answer my bank gave, it seems android apps have the misfeature that they have to ask for all capabilities at installation, even those needed only for optional features.
22:12:17 <olsner> yeah, all apps ask for all permissions and usually get them
22:12:57 <oerjan> while iphone only asked for a permission once it needed to use it
22:15:06 <oerjan> olsner: um the bank app definitely didn't ask for all permissions, just what it might need - it was just more than you'd expect. also that android didn't support getting the contact list without automatically getting the list of messages.
22:15:46 <oerjan> (in older versions, anyway)
22:32:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
22:33:14 <oerjan> `run sed -i 3d bin/learn
22:33:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
22:34:33 <oerjan> the info was both unused and out of date, anyway.
22:35:52 <oerjan> <int-e> and darn, is there a new URL for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? Gregor? <-- AAAARGH
22:36:10 <boily> Gregor: I think people are AAAAARGHing at you.
22:36:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:39:15 <oerjan> @tell Gregor it's one thing to remove HackEgo's access to the logs, a completely different thing to remove our ability to browse the repository for vandalism
22:41:10 <oerjan> boily: clearly the end times are near
22:42:31 <oerjan> huh near and next are originally inflexions of nigh
22:45:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/learn
22:46:00 <oerjan> @tell Gregor also breaks `paste
22:46:18 <boily> @tell Gregor AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH (for good measure)
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22:47:58 <Taneb> Today I caught myself wondering if matrix transposition was a contravariant endofunctor on the category formed by matrix multiplication
22:48:14 <Taneb> When I realised I don't actually have much idea what that would entail
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22:49:25 <olsner> and then you woke up relieved that you didn't actually wonder about that in reality?
22:49:26 <oerjan> Taneb: hm yes, i think it is.
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22:52:38 <boily> Taneb is evolving into an Abstract Mathematician!
22:52:46 <Taneb> oerjan, is knowing that particularly useful?
22:52:51 <Gregor> oerjan: I didn't "remove" anything, I'm just moving it to a new server and it's taking some work. Don't panic X-D
22:53:21 <oerjan> Gregor: can i at least flail?
22:53:39 <Gregor> So long as you're dignified about it.
22:54:05 <olsner> boily: isn't a mapole pretty similar to a flail?
22:54:06 <boily> 9 doctors out off 10 recommend a daily dose of flailing.
22:54:27 <boily> olsner: it's more rigit, and goes into the polearms category. you're thinking of halberds.
22:54:44 <oerjan> Taneb: iirc it generalizes to adjoints of linear transformations
22:54:52 <Taneb> Does restricting the matrices to have a non-zero determinant form a subcategory of that category?
22:55:22 <oerjan> Taneb: well then you only get square ones
22:55:46 <oerjan> in fact that's precisely the isomorphisms, i think
22:56:15 <olsner> boily: a flail is pretty much not a polearm though
22:57:33 <oerjan> Taneb: there are some elementary proofs in hilbert space theory that are basically just mucking around with adjoints/transposes
22:58:03 <oerjan> because hilbert spaces are self-dual for this purpose
22:59:08 <boily> olsner: the mapole is a polearm, the flail is a “maces & flails”.
23:01:24 <oerjan> Taneb: the bras and kets in quantum mechanics are basically dual in this sense - when you move an operator from one to the other, you must take the adjoint of it.
23:01:50 * oerjan is thinking vaguely here
23:02:54 <oerjan> (adjoint = transpose + conjugate every element, on the matrix level. that makes it work better with complex vector spaces.)
23:06:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ od -Ax -tx1z -v $@
23:07:23 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/[^ ]*$/"$@"/' bin/hd
23:07:28 <HackEgo> "$@" \ od -Ax -tx1z -v "$@"
23:07:45 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/[^ ]*$/"$@"/' bin/hd
23:07:49 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ od -Ax -tx1z -v "$@"
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23:39:10 <kmc> apparently there's a privilege escalation hole in Linux X32 ABI
23:40:18 <FireFly> That sounds interesting, do you have a link about it?
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23:41:12 <kmc> https://twitter.com/djrbliss/status/429032775165820928 has all the information i've found
23:41:20 <kmc> spender says it's an arbitrary kernel memory write
23:41:35 <kmc> he also admits grsec is useless to stop it
23:41:44 <kmc> which is out of character for him
23:44:31 <olsner> is timespec differently sized in x32 and 64-bit?
23:45:02 <olsner> the fix would probably be more informative as to what the problem is
23:45:16 <kmc> yeah, I haven't found that yet but haven't really looked
23:45:23 <olsner> (but the introduction is where it should've been caught)
23:45:57 <kmc> my guess from the presence of COMPAT_USE_64BIT_TIME is that it's differently sized in i386 compat mode vs. x32
23:46:04 <kmc> this is in net/compat.c after all
23:46:30 <kmc> dunno though
23:47:15 <kmc> I don't know much about how x32 is implemented
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23:53:59 <olsner> dunno much about x32 either, but I'm guessing they've tried to reuse stuff from 64 or 32-bit as much as possible, and either can be just as wrong in subtle ways
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00:45:36 <Bike> is this config option thing on by default i.e. should i worry
00:48:54 <kmc> i think recent Ubuntu kernels have it
00:49:12 <kmc> do you admin any systems where the separation between user and root accounts is an important security property?
00:50:28 <kmc> it's a serious question!
00:50:49 <Bike> yes, but the answer is no, i'm just a desktop luser
00:51:07 <int-e> google turned up http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q1/187 which is fairly detailed (but doesn't say whether COMPAT_USE_64BIT_TIME is enabled by default)
00:51:08 <Sgeo> Curse of the Swine, a blue card, produces green tokens
00:51:35 <kmc> I suppose that it also matters if you're relying on certain kinds of sandboxing
00:52:04 <kmc> so it might diminish the security of chromium or something
00:52:29 <kmc> nelhage suggests using it to break out of docker containers
00:53:20 <kmc> `? welcome.es
00:53:21 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
00:55:09 <miguel1> naguara 72 personas y nadie hala
00:56:00 <kmc> no hablamos español :/
00:56:03 <kmc> (yo un poquito)
00:58:46 <HackEgo> miguel1: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
00:59:21 <kmc> i should re-learn spanish
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01:28:07 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-oic_acid and i thought words like "bootstrapping" had convoluted origins. how silly of me.
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01:54:39 <pikhq> kmc: Ah, yes. struct timespec is different sizes in i386, x32, *and* x86_64.
01:55:27 <pikhq> timespec contains a time_t and a long. time_t is: i386 32 bits, x32 64 bits, x86_64 64 bits. long is: i386 32 bits, x32 32 bits, x86_64 64 bits.
01:56:45 <pikhq> Made worse by how the long has a max value of (1 sec in nanosec) - 1.
01:57:19 <pikhq> Soooo the damned system call doesn't even need to exist in x32, but it does anyways.
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02:48:38 <Sgeo> Is the "Manipulative Monstrosities" intro pack halfway decent?
02:48:45 <Sgeo> Although it's kind of too late to take back my purchase
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02:49:05 <Sgeo> MTGO doesn't seem to have 'event packs' which I heard are more competititve for things like Friday Night Magic
02:50:58 <Sgeo> I don't think I am, but you can decide for yourself if you want to
02:51:32 <coppro> you seem to be dropping non sequiturs
02:52:07 <zzo38> coppro: I don't think Sgeo is zzo38 today.
02:53:50 <pikhq> Sgeo is definitely not being zzo38 here. These aren't non sequiturs, but inquiries about a game that many of us play.
02:54:02 <pikhq> Though, zzo38 doesn't generally do non sequiturs either.
02:54:11 <pikhq> Linguistic oddness is his thing, not actual nonsense. :)
02:54:53 <Sgeo> I tend to be utterly off any topic anyone else is talking about, but (hopefully) coherent within whatever I'm talking about
02:55:22 <coppro> < Sgeo> Curse of the Swine, a blue card, produces green tokens <- is hardly a query
02:55:54 <coppro> and yes, I'm aware that many of us play Magic; I'm probably the worst of the lot
02:59:47 <zzo38> If new game are made we can avoid all of the problems with the rules of Magic: the Gathering since backward compatibility is no longer required, and make it more mathematically elegant, and fix other problems too (although other people disagree about what these problems are; my opinions are one and other people may disagree some of them). One thing I would do is throw away all of the rules dealing with Constructed format, and have Limited format be
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03:05:30 <Sgeo> Um. I think Magic Online thinks I'm missing basic lands for the intro pack I bought
03:10:41 <Sgeo> Apparently Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014 doesn't fully follow the rules? :(
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03:23:37 <zzo38> I have idea which is to make up a chess variant based on Famicom PPU.
03:27:30 <kmc> that's a very zzo38 idea
03:27:37 <kmc> how would it work
03:28:12 <zzo38> You can have only eight "sprites" pieces on each row, and the "tiles" pieces can only be one palette per 2x2 area.
03:37:16 <kmc> is there good software for prototyping chess variants
03:39:03 <zzo38> There is Zillions, but it is proprietary and Windows-only, and limited in many ways.
03:40:33 <Sgeo> On the plus side, Zillions has awesome music
03:41:10 <Sgeo> ... awesome might be stretching it
03:41:16 <Sgeo> Sounds classical, but I can't put a name to it
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03:42:31 <kmc> pikhq: why is long only 32 bits on x32? is it because there's a lot of code which assumes sizeof(long) == sizeof(void*) ?
03:43:02 <zzo38> However the source files are plain text, in a Lisp like format, so presumably you could make up another program which would be able to parse them and run them, without computer player, and one other feature also cannot be implemented without that capability, which is the rule which says you have to make multiple jumps which are the maximal total vaule of pieces (although this is a stupid feature anyways; it is too inflexible to be useful).
03:43:42 <Sgeo> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/29809233003217/29809233003217.ogg
03:43:46 <kmc> build a distributed chess engine based on proof-of-work block chaining
03:44:58 <zzo38> kmc: How do you do that?
03:45:31 <kmc> i don't know but perhaps you do
03:45:35 <Sgeo> What song is that
03:46:45 <quintopia> kmc: "Why is it taking you so long to make your move?" "Actually, I submitted it ten minutes ago, but no one's found a hash yet!"
04:05:55 <kmc> unclear what the mining incentive is, unless it has an associated currency
04:05:56 <kmc> like namecoin
04:35:58 <quintopia> well, there doesn't really need to be a mining incentive really. just let the players find their own hashes. yes, the difficulty will be super-low, but the point isn't to prove you worked really super hard. just hard enough that it'd be hard to replicate it later
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04:48:28 <kmc> I think part of the point would be to have a public append-only history of all games that have been played
04:49:04 <kmc> in which case mining a block needs to be a lot harder than making a move (i.e. a transaction)
04:49:19 <kmc> otherwise somebody with only as much compute power as a few players can rewrite history
04:53:16 <zzo38> Are you trying to make up Bitcoin Chess?
04:53:53 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> I have idea which is to make up a chess variant based on Famicom PPU.
04:53:55 <HackEgo> 1164) <zzo38> I have idea which is to make up a chess variant based on Famicom PPU.
04:54:42 <kmc> quintopia: I think things also break if blocks get mined faster than they propagate through the P2P network
04:54:53 <kmc> that would make it hard to establish a consensus history wouldn't it
04:55:39 <quintopia> kmc: that's why difficulty resetting is part of the protocol
04:56:22 <quintopia> as it turns out, one can get by with mining speed of like 1min per block
04:56:45 <quintopia> though it does lead to forks slightly more often
04:56:59 <quintopia> but consistency is maintained anyway
05:05:58 <kmc> dogecoin has 60 second blocks
05:06:30 <kmc> and is the #3 coin by trade volume and #6 by market cap
05:06:47 <kmc> because the future is ridiculous
05:17:35 <kmc> also their blockchain is huge and growing huger
05:18:06 <quintopia> yeah i know a guy who made a fortune speculating doge
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05:36:03 <Sgeo> Just saw someone target a negative seeming spell at themselves
05:36:10 <Sgeo> But guess it's a trade-off... Sign in Blood
05:36:50 <Sgeo> Um. Why is Magic Online claiming that a Swamp is summoning sick?
05:37:09 <pikhq> Did it come into play this turn?
05:37:36 <zzo38> Yes it still has summoning sickness, but it doesn't use if it isn't a creature.
05:37:43 <pikhq> If it becomes a creature, then that becomes relevant.
05:38:18 <Sgeo> Also, that player really likes foil Swamps
05:38:30 <Sgeo> Correction: Foil basic lands
05:38:38 <Sgeo> _Virtual_ foil cards
05:38:55 <Sgeo> The interest in virtual foil cards bothers me more than virtual cards in and of themselves
05:39:37 <Sgeo> I might buy a physical card for its prettiness, or a virual card for its gameplay, but can't imagine buying a virtual card for its prettiness
05:40:03 <zzo38> Maybe they drafted such card?
05:40:03 <Sgeo> Although maybe I should just try Cockatrice again
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05:40:34 <kmc> a swamp creature
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05:44:55 <pikhq> Sorry, it'd be Land Creature -- Swamp
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05:53:00 <zzo38> Is there a way to use appending linking of functions with GCC?
05:53:28 <kmc> what does that do
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05:58:15 <zzo38> I mean you can make many functions in different modules together that the main module can call.
05:59:06 <zzo38> Maybe constructor functions can be used to fill up an array, though
06:01:06 <kmc> you can build the table statically in a special section a la https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v3.12/include/linux/export.h#L56-L65
06:02:11 <kmc> then a linker script will give you symbols for the start and end of that section
06:02:41 <zzo38> OK, although I do not want to be specific to Linux or any other operating system.
06:03:15 <kmc> sure, this is just the Linux kernel as one example of a C program using this trick
06:03:42 <kmc> it should work on any GCC platform where the object file format supports custom sections
06:05:08 <kmc> I was originally going to suggest something like #define EXPORT(fn) asm(".pushsection exported; .quad " #fn "; .popsection"); but emitting a struct from C is probably more reasonable
06:05:45 <kmc> with ld's pushsection/popsection and local numbered labels you can do some pretty cool shit
06:07:11 <zzo38> But, I don't want to be limited to specific instruction sets either.
06:07:19 <kmc> well, this isn't either
06:08:20 <zzo38> I also do not undersatnd how that export.h is working
06:10:02 <kmc> here is a simplified version
06:11:04 <kmc> struct kernel_symbol { void *value; const char *name; }; #define EXPORT_SYMBOL(sym) static const struct kernel_symbol __ksymtab_##sym __attribute__((section("__ksymtab"))) = { sym, #sym };
06:11:31 <kmc> then you would write something like EXPORT_SYMBOL(my_function); void my_function() { ... }
06:11:49 <kmc> and this arranges for a struct with a relocation to my_function as well as the string "my_function" to be placed into the section __ksymtab
06:11:57 <zzo38> OK, but I don't know how you would load it, and anyways that isn't quite what I am intending to do either
06:12:05 <kmc> and the linker will glue together all of these structs from all the object files
06:12:17 <kmc> and then you can iterate through them at runtime
06:12:25 <kmc> zzo38: OK, what are you intending to do?
06:14:05 <zzo38> To make all SQL functions and various other things defined in different modules linked with the program to be available to the main program all at once even if a new file is added you don't have to fix the main program.
06:14:30 <kmc> ok, it sounds like this mostly accomplishes that
06:14:40 <zzo38> I could do what I did in VGMCK, which is making constructor functions to add things at the beginning of a global linked list.
06:14:47 <kmc> the main function can look through this table and see the names of the other functions as well as pointers to them
06:15:13 <kmc> you can also use dlopen(NULL) and dlsym()
06:15:44 <zzo38> That's OK, although I don't need the names (unless they are the SQL names rather than C names)
06:17:40 <zzo38> I am probably doing just what I did in VGMCK; it doesn't require sections supporting
06:17:49 <zzo38> kmc: Depending what?
06:19:13 <kmc> well, you need to be using dynamic linking, and I don't know how to iterate over all the stuff in the file
06:19:19 <kmc> perhaps GNU's dl_iterate_phdr is useful
06:19:38 <Sgeo> I just introduced someone to Cockatrice :/
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07:45:53 <Sgeo> Bought Duals of the Planeswalkers 2014
07:46:18 <kmc> cones of dunshire
07:48:03 <Sgeo> "the game, in reverse"
07:48:16 <Sgeo> Magic the Gathering had a card that triggered a game of Magic the Gathering within the game
07:48:30 <kmc> does it have a card that triggers a game of chess
07:48:34 <kmc> or chess-boxing
07:48:36 <kmc> or drinking chess
07:49:21 <kmc> strip magic, each player starts with 20 items of clothing
07:49:39 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=980&printed=true
07:49:50 <myname> you don't have to count points, very handy
07:50:03 <Sgeo> "Players must leave game in progress as it is and use the cards left in their libraries as decks with which to play a subgame of Magic. When subgame is over, players shuffle these cards, return them to libraries, and resume game in progress, with any loser of subgame halving his or her remaining life points, rounding down. Effects that prevent damage may not be used to counter this loss of life. The subgame has no ante; using less than forty
07:50:03 <Sgeo> cards may be necessary."
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07:56:50 <myname> wondering if a strip munchkin would be possible
07:57:05 <myname> but it seems quite strange if the winner has to be naked
07:57:12 <myname> or if everyone has to start naked
07:59:30 <kmc> everyone gets naked and then they think of something more fun to do than play strip munchkin
08:02:01 <ion> strip The Game
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08:55:05 <b_jonas> myname: http://www.xkcd.com/696/ ?
08:57:34 <kmc> Sgeo: it's written as "any loser", does that mean a game of M:tG can have more than one loser? even between two players?
08:58:07 <zzo38> I think it is possible both players will lose
08:58:15 <Sgeo> Games of Magic can have more than two players, and it's possible for all players to lose
08:58:25 <Sgeo> "At the start of the sub-game both players draw their initial hand (usually 7 cards). If one player has fewer cards than required, that player loses. If both have fewer than required, both players lose."
08:59:05 <zzo38> I think the rule is, if a player wins and loses simultaneously, they lose.
08:59:49 <kmc> life is a game where you often win and lose simultaneously
09:01:13 <b_jonas> kmc: yes. an M:tG game can have at most one team as a winner, but all people can lose
09:01:32 <b_jonas> kmc: even a two player game can end in a draw, in which case all players count as having lost
09:01:44 <olsner> kmc: I guess you saw the update on your x32 arbitrary write vulnerability? apparently it was a much more obvious problem than I thought
09:01:55 <kmc> i didn't see it
09:02:05 <b_jonas> kmc: the game is designed so that draws are rare in practice, but they still can happen and the rules must support them
09:02:06 <olsner> http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q1/187
09:02:27 <b_jonas> the easiest way they can happen is all players losing life simultanously
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09:34:34 <zzo38> What does the argument to the C "nan" function mean?
09:36:59 <FireFly> Probably the payload that goes in the mantissa of a NaN
09:37:52 <zzo38> But what does the payload do?
09:38:18 <FireFly> I don't think it has any meaning to the spec, but it's a way to attach metadata to a NaN (such as what caused it to become NaN)
09:38:49 <zzo38> OK; how long should the string be?
09:39:15 <FireFly> Some JS implementations use NaNs to store pointers/integers inside the payload
09:39:45 <zzo38> How does that help?
09:40:11 <FireFly> It means you don't have to store a tag separately, and therefore reduce the size that needs to be moved around
09:41:07 <FireFly> going by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN#Floating_point the payload seems to be the size of the mantissa - 1 bit, so 22 bits for `float` and 52 for `double` I think
09:42:01 <FireFly> http://wingolog.org/archives/2011/05/18/value-representation-in-javascript-implementations has an explanation of NaN-boxing if you're interested in that
09:42:04 <zzo38> So is six bytes OK then?
09:43:32 <FireFly> I wonder if there's a function for reading the payload
09:44:27 <zzo38> Is NaN allowed in SQL?
09:54:10 <fizzie> Based on a quick glance at the SQL-92 draft, it doesn't require NaNs or infinities for the "approximate numeric types". And there are no literals for them.
09:56:15 <fizzie> (And the meaning of the C nan() argument, and the xxx in "NAN(xxx)" for strtod et al. is implementation-defined.)
10:02:08 <zzo38> I am using SQLite rather than SQL-92 though.
10:06:18 <fizzie> Well, the SQLite data type page does say "floating point value, stored as an 8-byte IEEE floating point number", which certainly has NaNs.
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12:44:28 <fizzie> I just tried to write a thing in the form "-- (a) foo, (b) bar and (c) baz --" to someone in Skype's IM thing, but it turned the (a) to an angel, (b) to a beer mug and (c) to a coffee cup.
12:53:30 <fizzie> I don't know how it continues, but there's a high chance that (d) is a devil.
12:54:10 <fizzie> Oh, (according to Google) it seems to be "drink" (a Martini or some such) instead.
12:54:20 <fizzie> Skype seems to be a bit focused on drinkables.
12:55:17 <fizzie> (e) is an envelope/"email" icon, (f) is a flower, (g) doesn't exist on this page (but I think it might be an undocumented grin), (h) is a heart, and I'm bored now.
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13:11:30 <FireFly> I've learned that (y) is a thumbs-up in MSN from people using it outside of MSN
13:14:41 <int-e> it is. (n) exists, too.
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13:30:13 <boily> good wooden horse morning!
13:31:37 <int-e> oh, but the trojans are not amused.
13:32:24 <DobleD> fmjeifgnmje3kowo0ki21,p0kwqs,oakd,lsfdkmo32kerdo,srkfd,oewlrdk3p2wqode,poekrde
13:32:31 <DobleD> dfioredlskfopewñslae3kpwosñwopsñd
13:32:37 <DobleD> wsokafdlofkwepo0sñalkfepwsñkfop3ewkñlfk320pweñskf3pwq
13:32:42 <HackEgo> DobleD: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:35:03 <fizzie> Must've been some obscure esolang.
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15:20:51 <zzo38> boily: Then maybe might someone fix it if they want it more useful feature?
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15:22:33 <zzo38> Now I invented "Famicom PPU Chess": http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSfamicomppuches
15:23:57 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this?
15:25:18 <zzo38> quintopia: In two teams; you can play with just one person playing both colors of a team.
15:25:27 <boily> zzo38: to fix something in an Enterprise software? sadly not. it is more important to pile new features than to fix previous ones.
15:28:10 <zzo38> quintopia: Hopefully it is understandable?
15:29:00 <b_jonas> boily: you're getting that wrong. neither fixing bugs or adding new features is important. finding bugs and inventing creative misuses of them is the most important.
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15:34:38 <quintopia> yep it's about the most complicated variant I've met short of Chess 2, but it seems consistent.
15:35:47 <quintopia> zzo38: have you ever played mobius chess?
15:48:15 <zzo38> quintopia: I haven't played mobius chess.
15:48:41 <zzo38> (Actually most chess variants I haven't played, and I don't actually play chess much either.)
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15:50:11 <zzo38> And there are several much more complicated variants than just those.
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15:59:08 <FireFly> That reminds me, I want to try torus go someday
15:59:21 <FireFly> I can't imagine it being easy to make territory without any edges
15:59:36 <boily> b_jonas: they already do that, with magic numbers and implicit undocumented type conversions and stuff.
15:59:47 <boily> quinthellopia. are you still variating chess?
16:06:47 <boily> hezzo38. how do you vary?
16:15:37 <zzo38> boily: I do not entirely understand your question.
16:17:55 <boily> quintopia: the contract is signed, I begin February 10, and I was told by the HR to bring my Magic decks.
16:18:19 <boily> zzo38: what chess variations are you trying and analysing and comparing and enjoying?
16:18:23 <quintopia> boily: yes but that's your job. what about mine?
16:18:38 <int-e> . o O ( Maybe HR will burn the decks and tell you to concentrate on the job. )
16:19:02 <quintopia> boily: he already linked Famicom PPU chess above, and said he doesn't play chess much
16:19:37 <boily> quintopia: oh. your job. uhm... >_>... <_<... v_v... ¬_¬...
16:19:52 <boily> ah hm. that'll teach me to only partially read the logs...
16:26:14 <zzo38> boily: Many, including many I made up
16:27:19 <zzo38> You can see which game I invented at http://www.chessvariants.org/index/mainquery.php?type=Any&orderby=Type&displayauthor=1&displayinventor=1&inventorid=zzo38computer and there are several others on same website, I have looked at as well.
16:28:20 <boily> only many? that's more than several manies!
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16:43:49 <Bike> http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/31/start-up-aims-to-circumvent-rules-on-private-stock-sales/?_php=true&_type=blogs&module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Venture%20Capital&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body&_r=0 hahahaha
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17:05:29 <b_jonas> int-e: ouch, that would be bad
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17:50:43 <boily> b_jonas: burning Magic decks is a Federal Offense punishable by up to 20 years in prison.
17:52:36 <fizzie> They had a thing in the nearby role-playing game convention where there was a man going around with a sign, and if you gave the man some money, he would give you some MtG cards that you were then suppose to destroy in an inventive fashion.
17:54:09 <fizzie> I forget exactly. It was probably one of those things that only makes sense at conventions.
17:54:30 <kmc> what happens at role-playing game convention stays at role-playing game convention
17:54:30 <fizzie> I think it was some sort of a protest against Magic in favour of "actual" games.
17:55:25 * kmc rolls eyes
17:55:31 <kmc> what makes a game "actual" in this case
17:55:56 <fizzie> It doesn't involve collectible cards but traditional pen-and-paper stuff instead, I believe.
17:56:01 <fizzie> I'm trying (and failing) to find a picture of the thing.
17:56:23 <Bike> i'd totally do that though, if it wasn't too much money and if i was at a convention for some reason
17:56:38 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it wasn't part of the official program, for the record, just some guy.
17:57:08 <callforjudgement> Bike: I think the least desired Magic cards in existence sell in bulk for 10 cents each, maybe even less from some sellers
17:57:11 <fizzie> I'm just finding photos of people actually playing Magic, and photos that don't seem to be relevant in any way.
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18:10:17 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: definitely less
18:10:24 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: nobody would pay 10 cents for Index
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18:11:29 <b_jonas> Index is now reprinted in Standard
18:11:33 <b_jonas> so maybe that was a bad example
18:11:43 <b_jonas> it used to be one of the cheapest cards
18:13:20 <callforjudgement> (and cards which are mediocre but have memes about them are highly collected too, e.g. the cheapest versions of Storm Crow cost 15 cents)
18:17:00 <b_jonas> but in any case, there are cards cheaper than 10 cent
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18:31:06 <quintopia> what's a regex that matches any string of characters which does not contain the sequence DONOTDELETE?
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18:35:13 <Slereah_> [^D][^O][^N][^O][^T][^D][^E][^L][^E][^T][^E]
18:35:47 <Bike> any string, not any string of that length
18:36:04 <Slereah_> $*[^D][^O][^N][^O][^T][^D][^E][^L][^E][^T][^E]*$
18:36:27 <Bike> that matches foobarbazbakDONOTDELETE
18:36:52 <zzo38> Maybe you should use some regex library which include negative matching function.
18:36:59 <Bike> well, with different characters
18:37:14 <Bike> ([^D][^O][^N][^O][^T][^D][^E][^L][^E][^T][^E])+ would work but only takes multiples of that length
18:37:28 <Bike> don't remember how to do "or match ends" off the top of my head and also it's ugly anyway
18:37:29 <boily> probably something with negative lookahead?
18:37:39 <zzo38> By adding a "but not" operator.
18:38:41 <Slereah_> Linux needs an unlimited grammar expression thing!
18:38:50 <Slereah_> Though i think awk is already that
18:39:49 <zzo38> In AWK you can use a regular expression it will just be used where a boolean expression is used
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18:40:49 <Slereah_> doesn't it have extended regexes?
18:41:16 <quintopia> Bike: ah based on that i think (.*[^D][^O]...[^T][^E].*)* will work
18:41:29 <quintopia> (where ... is there rest of the character classes i didn't feel like typing)
18:42:18 <boily> or, maybe “not re.search(r'DONOTDELETE', the_string)”?
18:42:26 <quintopia> zzo38: is "but not" still regular?
18:42:28 <Bike> that will match DONOTDELETEaaaaaaaaaaaDONOTDELETE
18:43:38 <Bike> oh so i guess just ([^D][^O][^N][^O][^T][^D][^E][^L][^E][^T][^E])+.{,10} almost
18:44:03 <Bike> except that matches aaaaaaaaaDONOTDELETE
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18:45:43 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know if it is still regular
18:46:01 <Bike> oh. just put it on the other side.
18:46:17 <Bike> well no then you just have prefi problems
18:46:28 <zzo38> Maybe you can use SNOBOL patterns?
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18:46:30 <Bike> there's probably an easier way -_-
18:46:35 <quintopia> is "the set of strings which do not contain DONOTDELETE" even regular?
18:46:56 <quintopia> i can kind of visualize the FSM for it
18:47:12 <int-e> regular languages are closed under complement.
18:47:12 <olsner> I think perl regexpes have some funky lookahead thingies that work almost like negation
18:47:33 <quintopia> ah i think it's just D(?!ONOTDELETE) plus some other stuff
18:47:52 <olsner> int-e: no, iirc, they're *not* closed under complement
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18:48:23 <Bike> "the set theoretic Boolean operations: union K \cup L, intersection K \cap L, and complement \bar{L}. From this also relative complement K-L follows.[3]"
18:48:23 <int-e> olsner: you remember incorrectly
18:48:26 <Bike> good enough for me
18:48:36 <quintopia> Slereah_: that solves the problem of matching all strings which don't contain DONOTDELETE? ALL STRINGS SECRETLY CONTAIN DONOTDELETE????
18:48:48 <Bike> the conspiracy
18:49:08 <Bike> well, Slereah_'s matches the empty string.
18:49:26 <Bike> false advertising. i want my money back.
18:49:39 <atriq> Huh... I type better when looking out the window rather than at the keyboard
18:49:56 <boily> the Conspiracy Unmasqued! the Scandal is proving too much for the People! Revolts Abound! the End Times are Nigh!
18:49:58 <Bike> and i breathe better when i'm thinking about anything else
18:50:19 <Bike> that's more like it
18:50:22 <quintopia> Bike: unfortunately, it's still not right
18:50:32 <quintopia> Bike: unless you set your modes right, it still matches NEWLINE
18:50:57 <Bike> oh fuck that, if int-e can bring in actual math that's what i'm going to pretend to use
18:51:39 <atriq> What is the goal here?
18:51:54 <Bike> a regex matching all strings not containing "DONOTDELETE"
18:51:58 <FireFly> . in char classes in most regex flavours is treated literally
18:52:01 <Bike> or a regex containing no strings, for funnierness
18:52:08 <FireFly> so [^.]+ matches plenty of strings
18:52:20 <Bike> int-e: your mother
18:52:27 <quintopia> so how about this: ([^D]*(D(?!ONOTDELETE))*)*
18:52:36 <Bike> i don't remember what ?! does lol
18:52:37 <int-e> Bike: $.^ ... lots of ways :)
18:52:40 <FireFly> `run echo hi there | grep '[^\w\W]'
18:52:48 <quintopia> . in character class means period yes
18:52:59 <Bike> "yo momma so fat i had to come up with a new pumping lemma to get her out"?
18:53:02 <fizzie> quintopia: That seems overly complicated, compared to just ((?!DONOTDELETE).)*.
18:53:10 <FireFly> `run echo hi there | grep -o '[^\w\W]'
18:53:10 <HackEgo> h \ i \ \ t \ h \ e \ r \ e
18:53:25 <kmc> "relative complement" is an interesting term for set differene
18:53:28 <kmc> difference too
18:53:38 <boily> fungot: do you even match, bro?
18:53:38 <Bike> it's common, isn't it?
18:53:38 <fungot> boily: sorry for my english and the queen's english, thanks. really looking forward to playing it
18:53:44 <Bike> since complement is relative to the universe, anyway
18:53:56 <FireFly> quintopia: it matches characters while the pattern DONOTDELETE doesn't match
18:53:57 <Bike> does fungot speak in RP? awesome.
18:53:57 <fungot> Bike: ( that 826 is for the absence of infix operators... it all depends on what scheme system?
18:54:06 <fizzie> quintopia: Why not? It's just "any character except DONOTDELETE can't be at any position. Though something like ^(?!.*DONOTDELETE).*$ could be more efficient, at least assuming a usual backtracking kind of thing.
18:54:31 <quintopia> fizzie: oh that second one does look better
18:54:34 <Bike> backtracking *shakes fist*
18:54:42 <atriq> My uni is doing a programming competition, right a program that is an AI for a variant of battleships
18:55:07 <quintopia> fizzie: let's say i have a regular expression that has a .* in the middle of it. can i drop the regex in to replace that .* and have it work as expected?
18:55:22 <quintopia> (aka it matches all the strings the original one matched unless they have DONOTDELETE there
18:55:22 <atriq> One of my friends and I have entered (it has a weekly tournee). Last week we didn't do too well, but we've submittered a new version
18:55:23 <kmc> yeah I think it's easier to make a FSM for this complement and then turn it into a regex
18:56:00 <quintopia> fizzie: assuming i remove the ^ and $ of course
18:56:19 <int-e> something like ^([^D]|D*(D[^OD]|DO[^ND]|DON[^OD]|DONO[^TD]|(DONOT)*([^D]|D[^ED]|DE[^LD]|DEL[^ED]|DELE[^TD]|DELET[^ED])))*D*(D[^O]|DO[^N]|DON[^O]|DONO[^T]|(DONOT)*(|D[^E]|DE[^L]|DEL[^E]|DELE[^T]|DELET[^E])))*$
18:56:23 <FireFly> but shouldn't [^\w\W] match nothing? I thought it would
18:57:01 <Bike> int-e: you generated that automatically, right
18:57:02 <quintopia> fizzie: yeah it won't work as a drop-in replacement for .* because it looks ahead all the way to the end. but maybe the first one will?
18:57:13 <Bike> int-e: that's sad
18:57:15 <int-e> Bike: It's likely wrong. :)
18:57:24 <FireFly> int-e: you would probably like this code-trolling thing codegolf.stackexchange.com came up with
18:57:30 <int-e> (the two (DONOT)* should be (DONOT)+, for example)
18:57:32 <atriq> Only three teams have entered so far but it's restricted to 1st years and I know some not-first-years who want to enter
18:57:39 <atriq> That restriction'll be lifted soon
18:58:04 <fizzie> quintopia: The first one should work for that, I think. And yes, it's not quite a drop-in otherwise.
18:58:43 <kmc> I believe the string "DONOTDELETE" has the property that a match can't start in the middle of a prefix match
18:58:47 <kmc> which simplifies things
18:59:06 <kmc> compared to searching for, say, "ABABB"
18:59:21 <Bike> what about DONOTDONOTDELETE
18:59:29 <kmc> er that's true with one character of lookahead I mean
18:59:37 <quintopia> fizzie: it looks like the first one matches at least one character (the dot at the end). can i leave that off and have it match none also?
19:00:05 <fizzie> quintopia: The dot at the end was just a regular dot at the end of a sentence, actually.
19:00:19 <int-e> Bike: yes, that's why I need (DONOT)+ there.
19:00:59 <atriq> Surely DONOTDONOTDELETE could be deleted
19:01:17 <quintopia> int-e: that is way too complicated if fizzie's negative lookahead version works as expected
19:02:53 <int-e> quintopia: Oh I know, but those are not part of regular expressions as used in theoretical computer science (or POSIX).
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19:05:02 <quintopia> turns out the problem i was trying to solve here i had already solved in a different way and vforgot. but it's cgood to know the answer anyway
19:08:16 <fizzie> The negative lookahead thing isn't a terribly good thing, since it will probably attempt to match DONOTDELETE separately for each of the possible positions.
19:08:54 <FireFly> Won't it fail at matching the D for each character?
19:08:59 <FireFly> until it matches a D, of course
19:09:02 <int-e> the whole point is that negating regular expressions, while possible, is extremely error-prone and tedious.
19:09:43 <quintopia> FireFly: well it's terrible if your string contains a lot of DONOTDELETE prefixes
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19:17:12 <kmc> @tell Sgeo http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/29809233003217/29809233003217.ogg is Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ9qWpa2rIg
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19:20:58 <callforjudgement> what's the problem? matching all strings that /don't/ contain DONOTDELETE? in what regex syntax?
19:21:52 <fizzie> callforjudgement: Yes, Perl, and with the requirement for being a drop-in replacement for .* when it comes to other matters, like there being a DONOTDELETE in the string after the part the .* would match.
19:22:34 <callforjudgement> fizzie: hmm, that spec sounds like that might not be what you want
19:23:07 <callforjudgement> e.g. call this regex &, how should /&.*/ match "DONOTDELETE"? success or fail?
19:25:10 <callforjudgement> I was tempted to go for the very Prolog-like solution of (?:DONOTDELETE(*COMMIT)(*FAIL)|.*)
19:25:45 <fizzie> callforjudgement: Well, it's not my problem. But I guess what I envisioned is that /(&)(.*)/ would match with $1 = "", $2 = "DONOTDELETE".
19:26:17 <callforjudgement> so the only way to get a match failure is along the lines of /&a/ matching "DONOTDELETEa"
19:26:53 <callforjudgement> in that case I normally use (?:[^D]|D(?:[^O]|O(?:[^N]|N … ))).*
19:27:07 <Gregor> perl negative matching.
19:27:21 <FireFly> Gregor: that last .* is redundant, no?
19:27:22 <callforjudgement> Gregor: you mean ?!, but that also doesn't do what was requested
19:27:24 <Gregor> (That might be (?!) instead of (!?), I don't recall, but that's the idea)
19:27:31 <fizzie> callforjudgement: Well, I mean, the original context sounded something like /^foo.*bar$/ except that it should match fooblarbar but not fooblDONOTDELETEarbar.
19:27:41 <kmc> can you use ‽ instead
19:27:42 <Gregor> FireFly: I meant a $ after it, forgot about that :)
19:28:12 <Gregor> callforjudgement: Not in a negative match.
19:28:14 <FireFly> kmc: propose that for Perl 6
19:28:32 <fizzie> Gregor: The "(?!.*DONOTDELETE) anchored at start" solution was sort of discussed.
19:28:38 <callforjudgement> /regex/s and /regex.*$/s always either both match or both don't match
19:28:46 <Gregor> callforjudgement: In a negative match, (?!DONOTDELETE) will be "any string which contains anything other than DONOTDELETE", and (?!^.*DONOTMATCH.*$) is "a string which does not contain DONOTDELETE whatsoever"
19:29:27 <callforjudgement> specifically, (?!^…) always matches any non-start-of-the-string location
19:29:43 <callforjudgement> because it isn't at the start of the string, thus "you can't match the start of the string here" satisfies
19:30:38 <FireFly> AIUI negative lookahead simply tries to match the pattern at the location, and succeeds (and matches nothing) if the lookahead match fails, and fails if the lookahead match matches
19:30:48 <FireFly> That sounded way more confusing than I thought it would >.>
19:30:52 <Gregor> That's just the inner part of the solution, callforjudgement.
19:30:59 <Gregor> Obviously you need to wrap that in something that mandates line matching.
19:31:12 <Gregor> e.g. ^(?!^.*DONOTDELETE.*$)
19:31:30 <callforjudgement> Gregor: OK, if you put the ^ outside the (?!) too, then the inside ^ and .*$ are redundant
19:31:57 <callforjudgement> Gregor: give me a string that matches ^(?!^.*DONOTDELETE.*$) and doesn't match ^(?!.*DONOTDELETE), or vice versa
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19:32:08 <callforjudgement> and I will run it on Perl and either prove you wrong or prove myself wrong
19:33:08 <boily> FireFly: thanks. tdh.
19:33:15 <callforjudgement> you're claiming that the two are not equivalent, presumably it should be easy to find a counterexample
19:33:37 <fizzie> FireFly: Based on a really quick benchmark, given the string ("A"x$n)."foo".("B"x$n).$d.("C"x$n)."bar".("D"x$n) where $n = 10000000 and $d is either "DONOTDELETE" or "DONXTDELETE", it takes (on this system) about 0.38 seconds to match /foo.*bar/, and 1.33 or 0.77 seconds to match or not match /foo((?!DONOTDELETE).)*bar/ for the two variants, respectively.
19:34:11 <callforjudgement> fizzie: that simple example seems reasonable, but it won't work in particularly ridiculous contexts
19:34:54 <callforjudgement> the & should be able to match "DONOT", but ((?!DONOTDELETE).)* doesn't match a DONOT that's followed by DELETE
19:35:31 <fizzie> FireFly: Which wasn't all that bad, I guess.
19:40:00 <fizzie> callforjudgement: I guess that's true. I was trying to avoid the problem of anchored (?!.*DONOTDELETE).* that, for something like /foo&bar.*/, it wouldn't match "fooXXXbarDONOTDELETE", even though it should.
19:41:05 <callforjudgement> the (?:[^D]|D(?:[^O]|O(?:[^N]|N … ))).* solution definitely works, and is also maximally fast, but very verbose
19:46:27 <callforjudgement> if it matches one way, it's never considered to match a different way
19:49:24 <fizzie> Huh, strange. I tried to expand it out, and what I got -- (?:[^D]|D(?:[^O]|O(?:[^N]|N(?:[^O]|O(?:[^T]|T(?:[^D]|D(?:[^E]|E(?:[^L]|L(?:[^E]|E(?:[^T]|T[^E]))))))))))* -- works separetely, but not in that benchmark I mentioned. I must be doing something wrong.
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19:53:23 <int-e> fizzie: that doesn't work
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19:55:01 <int-e> fizzie: After adding ^ and $ around, it fails to match D; whenever you have a [^x], you also need to match the empty string ($). But even that is not enough; consider DDONOTDELETE. (The DD part matches D[^O])
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19:59:47 <int-e> I have now ended up with ^([^D]|D(D|.D|..D|...D|(ONOTD)+(D|.D|..D|...D|E...D))*($|[^DO]|O$|O[^DN]|ON$|ON[^DO]|ONO$|ONO[^DT]|ONOT(DONOT)*($|[^D]|D$|D[^OED]|DO$|DO[^ND]|DON$|DON[^OD]|DONO$|DONO[^TD]|DE$|DE[^LD]|DEL$|DEL[^ED]|DELE$|DELE[^TD]|DELET$|DELET[^ED])))*$
19:59:51 <int-e> which might be correct.
20:00:06 <int-e> (at least the corresponding DFA looks plausible)
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20:01:09 <zzo38> When will they make the GNU BLISS compiler? Did they do it yet?
20:01:17 <FireFly> Is there a good reason why there isn't prettier syntax for "a series of characters not including the substring X"?
20:02:12 <FireFly> I guess translating it to a DFA is tricky
20:02:17 <int-e> regular expressions have a direct translation to nondeterministic finite automata; the complement is expensive on NFAs.
20:02:34 <fizzie> Perl regular expressions don't have a NFA translation, though.
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20:07:05 <fizzie> I did also try out (.*)(?(?{ $1 =~ /DONOTDELETE/ })(*FAIL)) which worked as a drop-in .* in some contexts but not all; it has some backtracking-related subtlety I missed, I'm sure.
20:08:48 <fizzie> (It's conceptually pretty simple; "after capturing the .* FAIL this branch if the contents contain DONOTDELETE". But maybe there's something about $N inside the (?{..}) condition. Or maybe it's the inner regex.)
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20:42:09 <kmc> int-e: regex of the day award
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20:42:56 <kmc> fizzie: R E G E X C E P T I O N
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21:07:47 <FireFly> it's the regexception to the rule
21:08:58 <oerjan> <quintopia> fizzie: yeah it won't work as a drop-in replacement for .* because it looks ahead all the way to the end. but maybe the first one will? <-- not always
21:09:31 <oerjan> e.g. if you have a regexp like .*ELETE you cannot do that replacement for .*
21:09:54 <oerjan> because it would fail for the whole string being DONOTDELETE
21:10:22 <FireFly> I think that came up a bit later
21:10:23 <oerjan> i.e. you want something where the lookahead is also restricted to be inside the .*
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21:57:36 <Vorpal> Oh wow, someone combined Occulus Rift with Razor Edge. Neat.
21:57:54 <Vorpal> I guess it was just a question of time.
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22:42:21 <zzo38> Now I have added the new HWPL commands: DELIMIT, ENUMERATION, DIAGRAM, DURING, DURING NOT, LOWER, RAISE, GOTO, NEXT
22:43:38 <zzo38> DELIMIT and ENUMERATION are used for macros, while the others are used for state machines.
22:48:22 <zzo38> Now I added the ALWAYS command, but it isn't like the ALWAYS command in Verilog.
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