00:00:04 <kmc> oerjan: hey TNT is pretty safe
00:00:13 <kmc> "TNT can be safely poured when liquid into shell cases, and is so insensitive that in 1910, it was exempted from the UK's Explosives Act 1875 and was not considered an explosive for the purposes of manufacture and storage."
00:00:20 <kmc> "Its potential as an explosive was not appreciated for several years mainly because it was so difficult to detonate"
00:01:46 <oerjan> i thought dynamite was safe nitroglycerine.
00:01:56 <kmc> "Consumption of TNT produces red urine through the presence of breakdown products"
00:02:15 <zzo38> Can FlooP be compiled into TNT?
00:02:21 <FreeFull> oerjan: What do you think dynamite is made out of?
00:02:30 <oerjan> FreeFull: nitroglycerine hth
00:02:53 <kmc> i think the problem with dynamite is that it's rendered safe by physical mixing, and the nitroglycerin can settle out gradually and such
00:02:55 <FreeFull> Oh, apparently dynamite isn't actually made from TNT
00:03:49 <kmc> that's correct, it's a mixture of nitroglycerin and sawdust / diatomaceaous earth / clay / something like that
00:03:53 <FreeFull> Dynamite is less safe than TNT
00:03:55 <oerjan> FreeFull: sheesh, aren't you swedish or something. or am i confusing you with FireFly again.
00:04:08 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
00:04:59 <oerjan> were you polish, or am i confusing you with ...
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00:06:40 <FreeFull> Is anyone else in here Polish?
00:06:58 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
00:07:04 <myname> so, are you a north pole or a south pole?
00:07:34 <oerjan> FreeFull: none of the two other polish sometime regulars i remember at the moment are here.
00:07:39 <FireFly> If they are both, would that make them bipolar?
00:08:17 <FreeFull> Ah, right, asiekierka sometimes comes here
00:18:37 <HackEgo> danddreclist 45: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
00:29:56 <Taneb> `unicode INVISIBLE TIMES
00:31:48 <kmc> `run unicode 'LEFT SQUARE BRACKET' 'INVISIBLE TIMES' 'RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET'
00:33:11 <oerjan> `unicode MAY YOU LIVE IN INVISIBLE TIMES
00:33:20 <oerjan> i'm sure that's in chinese somewhere
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00:52:37 <myndzi> what would invisible times be for
00:53:15 <zzo38> Presumably it would be used with mathematics, I suppose; I don't know what programs would use it
00:53:48 <myndzi> why would you need something to represent times in a string that can't be seen though?
00:54:19 <zzo38> Maybe it is used as the input for some computer algebra systems? I don't know.
00:54:39 <myndzi> and i thought unicode love hotel was weird
00:54:49 <zzo38> That, as well as a lot of things in Unicode, don't make much sense though.
00:55:07 <myndzi> it's okay because we have so much space right?!
00:55:41 <zzo38> No. Not with the way it is working.
00:57:33 <oerjan> `unicode isn't particularly flexible </understatementZ
01:11:34 <FireFly> eh invisible times kinda makes sense to me, although they could've called it just JUXTAPOSITION or something
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01:20:15 <kmc> well there's some halfassed attempt to be semantic, right?
01:20:56 <kmc> juxtaposition doesn't always mean multiplication
01:23:32 <kmc> there's also INVISIBLE PLUS
01:24:42 <kmc> you put it inside 3¼ to indicate that it means 3.25 and not 3*¼ = 0.75
01:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> trying to represent characters on a semantic basis would be adorable if it wasn't so stupid
01:32:56 <myndzi> god help me if dealing with invisible characters ever becomes a part of everyday text editing
01:33:17 <kmc> `unicode INVISIBLE FNORD
01:33:21 <kmc> sure HackEgo
01:34:33 <zzo38> myndzi: Well, I don't have any such problems I deal with only ASCII so it isn't a problem.
01:38:30 <shachaf> kmc: what do i put in "-3¼", though
01:39:19 <shachaf> gotta have INVISIBLE MINUS
01:39:44 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think so, you would just change the operator precedence for the invisible operators
01:39:48 <shachaf> hm maybe i should read The Illuminatus! Trilogy
01:39:55 <kmc> s/maybe/definitely/
01:40:06 <kmc> maybe i should read it for the third time
01:42:22 <shachaf> anyway i read another book instead of that book
01:42:28 <shachaf> so maybe i can read that book now
01:42:35 <kmc> which book did you read
01:43:52 <shachaf> and also probably several other books since whenever it was you gave me that book to read
01:44:32 <shachaf> it's slightly too big to conveniently carry with me
01:45:01 <zzo38> Do you like this Dungeons&Dragons game session 45? I still am not quite sure that the prisoner really is disabled yet
01:47:14 <zzo38> When do you intend to read it?
01:48:38 <kmc> http://sharpwriter.deviantart.com/art/Bill-Clinton-the-Lady-Killer-357619589
01:48:50 <shachaf> zzo38: I wasn't intending to read it.
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02:05:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Probably you should, if you are interested in it. (Anyways, your name is on it so I thought you might be interested.)
02:05:42 <zzo38> That is, if it is the kinds of stories and things that interests you, I suppose.
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02:58:56 <shachaf> zzo38: On the list, you mean?
03:00:02 <HackEgo> ExTwO: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
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03:55:43 <Bike> i have to say that fizzie has the right idea; i don't enjoy being a bus quite as much
03:56:15 <zzo38> Right idea of what?
03:57:03 <HackEgo> 328) <Phantom_Hoover> The system I kind of have in mind makes a flying train a natural consequence. \ 628) <oklopol> the point of a university is research and training new researchers. the point of the world is to enable this. \ 761) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more,
03:57:10 <Bike> well,one of those.
04:08:41 <HackEgo> 820) <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
04:09:02 <Bike> to be fair i did have a wireless network
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04:19:36 <Sgeo_> So, there's a form element in HTML5 called <keygen>
04:19:50 <Sgeo_> Guess which browser's makers said that they will never support it?
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04:20:37 <zzo38> What does that form element mean?
04:21:07 <Sgeo_> It means create a public/private key pair+certificate, and send the certificate with the form when submitted (roughly, I think)
04:24:28 <Sgeo_> Going to read http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0043.html before yelling at IE
04:26:09 <shachaf> Bike: well, what if you were caltrain, though
04:26:53 <Bike> i wasn't. i was an amtrak superliner. very nice train despite amtrak.
04:27:48 <shachaf> have i ever been on amtrak
04:28:02 <Bike> they're not great. my train was like an hour late.
04:28:30 <Sgeo_> I've been on Amtrak once (well, twice if you count the return trip separately) recently (August), and once (twice) as a little kid
04:28:48 <shachaf> That's as many as four times!
04:28:59 <Sgeo_> And that's terrible.
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04:31:17 <kmc> which routes?
04:31:49 <Bike> i was on a north-south route in western oregon, don't remember names
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04:40:14 <shachaf> i'm actually not very aware of the existence of eastern oregon, come to think of it
04:40:25 <shachaf> or eastern washington, for that matter
04:40:44 <Bike> out here it's mostly empty.
05:01:01 * oerjan think he was in eastern oregon once
05:01:28 <oerjan> i vaguely remember some oregon trail museum
05:02:01 <oerjan> i was visiting remote relatives in idaho
05:05:27 <oerjan> well like fourth cousins or thereabouts.
05:07:43 <shachaf> copumpkin: do chu spaces belong in categories
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06:14:10 <kmc> can you play oregon trail at the oregon trail museum
06:14:14 <kmc> are they sick of people asking that
06:16:07 <zzo38> Are you sick of asking that?
07:10:44 <zzo38> Earlier this week while I was waiting in someone's office I read a book I found on their shelf, about graph theory.
07:13:15 <Sgeo_> kmc: what do you think about <keygen>?
07:23:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Whose office? Which book?
07:23:43 <zzo38> Some office I had to wait in for something. I do not remember the title of the book.
07:49:43 <Bike> Can someone walk me through how to do a github pull request
07:51:57 <kmc> https://help.github.com/articles/using-pull-requests
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08:23:26 <shachaf> so you can get command and conquer: red alert 2: yuri's revenge for free online these days and it works under wine
08:23:46 <shachaf> (multiplayer/skirmish-only)
08:25:49 <kmc> command and conquer: red alert 2: yuri's revenge: slaves to armok: god of blood: chapter ii: dwarf fortress
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08:28:55 <fizzie> Recently had an occasion to read some of my own quotes while looking for something; can't stop chuckling at my own "joke". (Guess that says something.)
08:29:38 <shachaf> was it <fizzie> Recently had an occasion to read some of my own quotes while looking for something; can't stop chuckling at my own "joke". (Guess that says something.)
08:29:45 <Bike> sent my first pull request!! only had to reset two passwords to do it
08:29:53 <HackEgo> 562) <fizzie dictionary> An 'ad hobbitem' fallacy is when you try to undermine someone's credibility by referring to how hairy his/her feets are.
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09:45:58 <mroman_> Ok. I might have some new idea based on my old ideas
09:46:13 <mroman_> Initially there's 1 Storage Cell
09:46:31 <mroman_> but if you put a large value in it, that large value somehow expands Space
09:46:52 <mroman_> but it also distorts surounding new cell
09:47:54 <mroman_> I.e if you put 8 in it, you get 5x5 cells of storage
09:52:35 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/LxT5wwU4 <- like that
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09:54:14 <mroman_> And only active cells distort surrounding cells
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11:10:39 <Taneb> HELP IM SLOWLY CHOKING ON A MARKS AND SPENCERS CHOCOLATE BROWNIE MIMI BITE
11:10:48 <Taneb> I DIDNT CHEW ENOUGH AND IT IS STICKY AND IN MY THROAT
11:16:31 <Taneb> There's a stupid bug I've got in Data.Group that nobody's noticed
11:16:43 <Taneb> Because a) nobody uses Data.Group
11:17:44 <Taneb> And b) there is only one type on Hackage it will happen for
11:18:42 <Taneb> (Dual (Endomorphism a))
11:18:54 <Taneb> Where k is a groupoid
11:25:10 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, should I give up waiting and start a new fortress
11:36:39 <Taneb> Fixing the dual problem!
11:36:52 <Taneb> (ab)^-1 = (b^1 a^-1)
11:37:37 <Taneb> So... (Dual a)^n = Dual ((a^-n)^-1)?
11:43:08 <int-e> is (ab)^-1 = (b^1 a^-1) a typo or a bug?
11:44:37 <int-e> as I see it, a |-> a^-1 is a homomorphism from a group to its dual
11:44:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Dual x `mappend` Dual y = Dual (y `mappend` x)
11:45:26 <Taneb> int-e, if I was better at words I would probably agree with you
11:45:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
11:46:00 <Taneb> I think if you treat a monoid as a category with one object it is exactly CT dual
11:46:47 <int-e> Right, you turn around all arrows.
11:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, he means that ^-1 acts in the same way you've just described Dual
11:47:15 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
11:48:22 <int-e> (And I was under the impression that we were discussing groups at the time. Obviously, this doesn't help much with monoids that don't have inverses.)
11:48:43 <Taneb> (yeah, this is about groups)
11:48:49 <Taneb> (all groups are monoids anyway)
11:49:42 <int-e> pages like http://www.tapscape.com/sheep-marketplace-scam-revealed-40-million-stolen/ that abuse CSS to entice people to enable Javascript make me angry. (Disabling the CSS instead helps, too.)
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12:51:12 <fizzie> Don't think I've seen a non-joke !list in a while.
12:52:53 <fizzie> "Welcome to rajaniemi.freenode.net in Helsinki, Finland. Our thanks to Aalto University for sponsoring this server!" Huh, didn't know our university had anything to do with it.
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13:08:36 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:08:51 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
13:09:05 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanet
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13:18:45 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX6262.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
13:25:45 <nortti> "we've going to be programmin on these, unless intel somehow gets a stranglehold on the processor market but that is not going to happen"
13:26:47 <nortti> "if we're still using threads and locks in 40 years [2015] we should just pack up and go home as we have clearly failed"
13:27:23 <fizzie> !pirate Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:23 <EgoBot> Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:27 <fizzie> !pirate Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:28 <EgoBot> Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:40 <fizzie> (It's not always the same thing.)
13:27:45 <fizzie> !pirate Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:45 <EgoBot> Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:27:52 <fizzie> Well, I'm just not lucky.
13:28:00 <fizzie> [15:27:18] <fizzie> !pirate Something that's not piratey beforehand.
13:28:00 <fizzie> [15:27:18] <EgoBot> Something that's not piratey beforehand, by Davy Jones's locker.
13:29:27 <nortti> "we are not going to have text files before, we will be representing data spatially"
13:31:09 <mroman_> Humanity has failed anyway
13:36:27 <fizzie> I guess EgoBot's live instance isn't web-repository-browseable, unlike HackEgo's. :/
13:36:47 <nortti> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pTEmbeENF4
13:37:39 <fizzie> !pirate I say, are you quite all right, man?
13:37:40 <EgoBot> I say, I'll warrant ye, be ye quite all right, lubber?
13:38:00 <Taneb> I'm streaming Dwarf Fortress
13:38:22 <fizzie> !pirate I'm not streaming Dwarf Fortress.
13:38:23 <EgoBot> I'm not streaming Dwarf Fertress.
13:38:45 <olsner> fungot: are you streaming dwarf fertress?
13:38:46 <fungot> olsner: http://www.schemers.com/ fnord is the viewfinder you can turn a function inside-out. does that make sense to me
13:39:02 <fizzie> fungot: Only you can answer that.
13:39:02 <fungot> fizzie: before then, he knew that, but befunge it is. 1, but it looks as though it were a procedure
13:40:24 <mroman_> !pirate I say, that's more like it
13:40:25 <EgoBot> I say, by Blackbeard's sword, that's more like it
13:40:46 <Taneb> I can't remember how to view it, though
13:41:18 <nortti> http://lwn.net/1999/0121/a/mec.html
13:42:17 <Taneb> I'm not playing in the terminal
13:42:22 <Taneb> I can't stream dwarf fortress
14:02:43 <mroman_> @msg boily Next time you may use alacritous .
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15:39:41 <Halite[tablet]> It's the only homoiconic language I've seen (that means it treats code as a data type just like numbers or strings)
15:41:52 <Slereah> Everything is the same type!
15:50:17 <Halite[tablet]> iPad says not charging, battery app 1 says charging, app 2 says not.
15:52:34 <Halite[tablet]> Battery app 1 has a graph. So far battery level has not changed between 5 mins.
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15:57:30 <FreeFull> Halite[tablet]: It's because all lisp programs are s-expressions
15:58:32 <FreeFull> Prolog is apparently homoiconic
15:58:39 <FireFly> What lisp dialects use m-expressions?
15:59:01 <FireFly> I mean, I know it (the HLL) was originally *meant* to use M-exprs, but AFAIK no dialect actually does that
15:59:14 <Halite[tablet]> FireFly: probably none. Doesn't mean they didn't exist.
15:59:47 <FireFly> Some concatenative languages could be considered homoiconic I think
16:02:07 <oerjan> what does it take to be homoiconic, what about underload? you cannot analyze the code in any way except by running it...
16:02:40 <oerjan> but there is definitely no real distinction between data and code.
16:04:46 <Halite[tablet]> If we had a program that took in just data and returned something to do with it
16:07:17 <augur> lots of languages are homoiconic
16:07:27 <augur> infact, probably most, but not in any useful way
16:08:02 <augur> few are like lisp, yes
16:08:07 <Slereah> How often do people still use self-modifying code, nowadays?
16:10:40 <augur> probably only smalltalk can really be claimed to have self modifying code in a true sense
16:11:02 <augur> lisp at best has code that can write more code and run it
16:11:10 <mroman_> does runtime modification of classes count?
16:11:16 <mroman_> like... adding new function to them?
16:11:38 <augur> sure. i guess ruby does that too quite typically
16:12:44 <augur> having some amount of higher-order-ness is really i think a main reason that self-modification isnt terribly common
16:13:17 <Halite[tablet]> Is there a tool to help me make a programming language?
16:13:49 <augur> Halite[tablet]: haskell is a good language to design other languages in, i feel
16:14:00 <mroman_> Halite[tablet]: I like Haskell
16:14:16 <mroman_> You can get started really quick with Parsec, a Statemonad and a simple eval loop
16:14:34 <augur> Halite[tablet]: sure it is
16:14:42 <augur> just not in as obvious a way as lisp
16:14:47 <augur> but thats really a benefit for haskell
16:14:52 <Slereah> Is Neil Patrick Harris homoiconic?
16:15:15 <augur> haskell programs are ultimately just values in a haskell data type
16:15:28 <augur> its not implemented that way per se, but template haskell lets you expose some amount of that
16:16:11 <augur> but homoiconicity in your metalanguage isn't terribly important
16:16:53 <mroman_> Then you can use the CompilerProvider Thingies
16:17:08 <augur> writing a language in haskell is really quite easy tho
16:17:25 <augur> you can write a (simple) lisp in an hour maybe?
16:18:10 <augur> well, to add fancier features like macros or whatever would take a bit more time, because you'd have to design it all
16:18:18 <augur> but the core functionality is easy
16:18:31 <Slereah> I guess all you really need is a language with an eval function, though, no?
16:18:44 <Slereah> And it becomes easy for most cases
16:18:52 <Slereah> Translate the statement, evaluate the translation
16:21:54 <mroman_> You can write a simple Lisp in an hour in Haskell
16:22:39 <augur> well thats because both are LC inspired
16:29:06 <ion> Hah, the menus and the search function at the bottom. http://store.steampowered.com/
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16:37:21 <augur> Halite[tablet]: what are you talking about
16:37:53 <mroman_> I gotta install Haskel on my new Win8 Laptop too
16:38:08 <Halite[tablet]> Whenever I want to split arguments in my language, it will always split the arguments in the arguments and fail
16:38:41 <augur> what does that even mean
16:39:04 <oerjan> INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER
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16:41:37 <oerjan> BUT THAT WILL INCREASE ENTROPY FURTHER
16:42:00 <quintopia> zzo38: on a scale from 1 to 10, how much of a LaTeX expert are you?
16:42:47 <oerjan> at least 11 for the latter.
16:44:53 <quintopia> oerjan: when you think of me, what color/image/fruit/animal/appliance/whatever comes to mind. what concrete noun would be best associated with me?
16:46:20 <quintopia> Halite[tablet]: but your nick is orange. mine is white. :P
16:47:15 <Halite[tablet]> Yours is -topia, so either yoghurt or Tropica fruit drinks come to mind
16:48:22 <Halite[tablet]> And with a posh invitation paper to invite it to my mind
16:48:28 <quintopia> -topia just means place, so why would it not be a place instead of a drink?
16:51:46 <mroman_> Halite[tablet]: Are having trouble parsing your language?
16:52:31 <mroman_> also my freaking headache is so bad I have trouble reading...
16:53:32 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know LaTeX, but I know TeX. I still don't know quite how much on such a scale, however.
16:56:15 <quintopia> Halite[tablet]: i mean what language are you parsing
16:57:21 <mroman_> You could write an Interpreter for Spacefish
16:57:26 <zzo38> quintopia: Why do you want to know how much of a TeX expert am I anyways?
16:57:28 <mroman_> preferably with JS and animated canvas stuff .
16:58:41 <quintopia> zzo38: obviously so i can ask you difficult questions if i am trying to write some TeX file.
16:58:42 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm afraid i cannot answer properly, since "orange" popped into my mind and that was probably because it was written on the next line.
16:59:09 <quintopia> oerjan: but i like the color orange. do you mean the fruit?
17:00:36 <oerjan> quintopia: i like both.
17:00:58 <quintopia> oerjan: so blood oranges and yellow oranges just won't do?
17:01:03 <oerjan> although perhaps something sweeter than the big oranges.
17:01:19 <oerjan> quintopia: just be my clementine
17:01:34 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, you can ask questions anyways; I do know a lot about it and have done things with it even sorting and multiple columns and other things. What is it you are trying to do?
17:01:44 <quintopia> they are so easy to peel and eat and don't make a mess
17:02:12 <quintopia> zzo38: nothing at the moment. i'll let you know if somethign comes up.
17:02:36 <mroman_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacefish <- need some brainstorm buddy
17:03:02 <mroman_> It should be possible to just place Max Values at some cells and then place the actuall values you are interested about on the outer edge
17:03:09 <mroman_> i.e where the distortion is minimal
17:03:15 <mroman_> which means the distortion is 1
17:03:33 <mroman_> then one should be able to reconstruct the stored value by subtracting 1
17:04:04 <mroman_> you can't store 255 in such a cell
17:04:41 <mroman_> i.e it wraps around to 0, subtract 1 and you have 255 back
17:06:31 <quintopia> mroman_: your reasoning sounds fine
17:06:38 <mroman_> also if you put a 254 in it, it would be distorted to 255
17:06:58 <mroman_> and that means, that 255 now influences values you put in the other edges
17:07:17 <quintopia> mroman_: does every + or - cause a distortion?
17:07:34 <quintopia> like doing + to a 15 will suddenly distort cells even further away?
17:07:36 <mroman_> If you increase a value, you increase it's range of distortion, yes
17:08:18 <quintopia> mroman_: so what happens if I do a -+ to the start cell?
17:09:09 <Halite[tablet]> You will affect other cells with a change. Does that mean the other cells affect yet others?
17:09:10 <mroman_> also.. if you decrease it the space shrinks
17:09:35 <mroman_> quintopia: It warps around to 255
17:09:44 <mroman_> then you increment it which wraps around to 0
17:10:26 <quintopia> mroman_: so what happens if i do a ->>>>>>>>-+<<<<<<<<+
17:11:33 <quintopia> also, what happens if i do ->>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<+
17:13:19 <mroman_> the - would decrement the cell's value 1 to 0
17:13:35 <mroman_> then you go back to the 255 cell
17:14:21 <mroman_> I figured every active cell has to be "connected" to the initial cell
17:14:32 <mroman_> and if that connection is gone, the active cell vanishes
17:14:59 <mroman_> i.e you end up with only one active cell (the inital cell) with value 0
17:15:05 <quintopia> so then i couldn't move way off into space doing [->>>>>>>-<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>]?
17:15:25 <mroman_> or the second possibility would be
17:15:42 <mroman_> that you have two active cells
17:15:53 <mroman_> and there is actually no "space" between those
17:16:10 <quintopia> when space disappears, the distortion disappears too?
17:16:11 <trout> 9/20 packets received (45.0%) 1963.789 min / 2440.817 avg / 2866.578 max
17:16:28 <mroman_> quintopia: The distortion is actually what causes space to exist
17:17:22 <quintopia> mroman_: so implementation-wise, you have to watch the cell to see if it is incrementing or decrementing to or from a power of two, and if so, run out and do a whole bunch of distorting or undistorting?
17:17:49 <mroman_> Once a cell changes it's value you have to adjust other cells
17:18:07 <mroman_> possibly deleting cells and/or shrinking the space
17:18:22 <quintopia> mroman_: okay, so let's say ->>>>>>>+<<<<<<<++ creates two separate 1s. would another > take me back to the second 1?
17:18:40 <mroman_> I'm probably gonna go with the restriction, that every active cell must be within reach to the initial cell to keep existing
17:19:13 <mroman_> quintopia: No. The second one would disappear
17:19:21 <quintopia> mroman_: "within reach" meaning "connected to a cell that is within reach of the initial cell"?
17:19:46 <mroman_> quintopia: Or in other terms: If a cell is not distorted by any other cell, it vanishes
17:19:59 <trout> quintopia: wireless
17:20:34 <quintopia> mroman_: so a cell could be distorted by another cell even if it contains zero?
17:20:54 <mroman_> but that would allow you to create two cells distorting each other outside the range of the initial cell :)
17:21:24 <mroman_> quintopia: Which cell contains zero?
17:21:35 <mroman_> A cell containing zero does not distort any other cell
17:22:00 <mroman_> It's undistorted value might be 255
17:22:18 <mroman_> but due to some influence it's visible value is (255 + 1 = 0)
17:23:08 <mroman_> The value 2 in the initial cell distorts the cell to the right by 1
17:23:19 <mroman_> which means the decrement will set it to zero
17:24:26 <quintopia> the cell to the right will become 2
17:24:34 <quintopia> which will distort the original cell to 5
17:25:37 <mroman_> the cell to the right is not considered an active cell
17:25:59 <mroman_> it becomes active ones you change it's value
17:26:00 <quintopia> okay what if i did ++++>-+^-+<-+<-+v
17:26:20 <myname> what is this distortion stuff all about?
17:26:23 <FireFly> is there a spec for this brainfuck derivative thing?
17:26:29 <mroman_> that would distort the original cell yes
17:27:24 <quintopia> okay, so what about ++++>-+<+++. what value does initial cell contain?
17:28:14 <mroman_> I.e distortion does not cause other distortion :)
17:28:30 <Vorpal> Oooh this bf variation actually sounds somewhat interesting.
17:28:37 <mroman_> quintopia: You initialize to 4, which means the cell to the right is distorted by two
17:29:01 <mroman_> which does not distort the initial cell because 1 /2 = 0
17:29:06 <mroman_> then you increment it back to 2
17:29:11 <mroman_> which distorts the initial cell by 1
17:29:40 <mroman_> which distorts the cell to the right by 4 making it become 6
17:30:04 <mroman_> so initial cell: 8, cell to the right: 6
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17:30:46 <quintopia> so the fact that the cell to the right is active doesn't mean that distortion to it propagates another further than it?
17:31:48 <quintopia> but... ++++>-+<+++>-+ should put the original cell to 10?
17:32:07 <mroman_> I'm not sure if it is problematic to propagate it further
17:32:22 <mroman_> you could say that 6 distorts the initial value again
17:32:51 <mroman_> which would distort the cell to the right now by 5
17:33:05 <mroman_> and then it should stop, right?
17:33:08 <FireFly> I don't get the distinction between initialisation and mutation
17:33:17 <quintopia> but then it becomes very difficult to set cells to arbitrary values yes?
17:34:30 <FireFly> If I ++++++++, would that affect surrounding cells as in the second example in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacefish#Storage ?
17:34:32 <mroman_> according to my esolangs.org wiki page the 6 would distort the initial value back
17:34:38 <mroman_> it would become 11 in that case
17:35:09 <quintopia> mroman_: this page needs Categories
17:35:58 <FireFly> mroman_: yes, just 8 +'s, which would presumably set the initial active cell to 8?
17:36:05 <FireFly> but I'm not sure how it affects the surrounding cells
17:36:10 <mroman_> the example is incorrect though :)
17:36:14 <mroman_> that's an early made up sketch
17:36:35 <quintopia> mroman_: if it propagates further it could be that -+ changes has a net (negative) effect on a cell, right?
17:36:43 <FireFly> but would ++++><++++ do the same thing?
17:36:50 <mroman_> quintopia: There could be very weird wrap around effects yeah
17:36:59 <mroman_> like a cell's value is 250 and the next cell has uhm...
17:37:03 <quintopia> mroman_: i mean not wraparound, just distortion
17:37:05 <FireFly> why wouldn't it propagate distortion for setting the cell to 1, then to 2, then to 3, then ..., to 8
17:37:15 <mroman_> it would distort the 250 to 10
17:37:31 <mroman_> which would distort the cell to the right less
17:37:37 <mroman_> and that's the problem with propagation
17:39:17 <FireFly> Then I'd expect it to add \sum_{i=1}^8 \log_2{i} to the immediately surrounding cells
17:39:18 <mroman_> FireFly: A cell has an "actual value" and a "visible value"
17:39:30 <mroman_> the cell to the right of the initial cell has the actual value 0
17:39:37 <mroman_> but if you increment the initial cell to two
17:39:48 <mroman_> the visible value of that cell changes to 1 (due to distortion)
17:40:09 <mroman_> the actual value is still 0
17:40:15 <mroman_> but the distortion is now 4
17:40:19 <mroman_> making the visible value 4
17:40:34 <quintopia> mroman: like for instance ++++++>+++<->-+ what is the value in the second cell? before and after the -+?
17:40:40 <FireFly> Hrm, sounds like distortion would be tricky to calculate when multiple nearby cells may affect it
17:41:09 <mroman_> Ok. Initial Cell = 6, then move to the right
17:41:15 <FireFly> Seems hard to tell whether a particular operation distorts a particular cell, if you have to check if another nearby cell affects it too
17:41:19 <mroman_> increment it by 3 but it has a distortion of 3
17:41:48 <mroman_> decreasing the distortion to two
17:42:07 <mroman_> so the cell to the right becomes 3 + 2 = 5
17:42:40 <quintopia> mroman_: you miscalculated, but also, i meant ++++++>+<->-+
17:43:20 <mroman_> I should write a 1D interpreter :)
17:44:40 <mroman_> quintopia: You set the initial cell to 6, then increment the cell to the right making it become 4 which distorts back the original cell by two making it become 8
17:44:59 <FireFly> 8>2>8<<-- where numbers denote number of +es, would leave the middle cell at 2+4 = 6?
17:45:17 <mroman_> then you move back, decrement it to making the cell to the right uhm...
17:46:26 <mroman_> so that doesn't change the value of the cell to the right
17:47:09 <mroman_> FireFly: 8>2> causes the second cell to become 6, yes
17:47:20 <mroman_> and the first cell to become 9
17:47:55 <FireFly> I realised the third 8 would mess with the initial cell too
17:48:18 <FireFly> mroman_: would that retroactively affect the middle cell too?
17:48:48 <mroman_> also the third cell is distorted by 1 (from the 2) + 2 (from the 8)
17:49:18 <mroman_> which distorts the first and second cell :)
17:52:55 <quintopia> mroman_: http://pastebin.com/p0gP83Nh
17:53:05 <quintopia> here is an example of -+ having a net negative effect
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17:55:19 <FireFly> Keeping it to 1D/2D is probably easier to visualise
17:55:22 <quintopia> i agree that a 1d version would be hard enough
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17:59:21 <quintopia> then there should be a solution to immediately jump to the equilibrium values...
18:03:59 <mroman_> It's going to be though to write an interpreter for that :D
18:05:41 <quintopia> mroman_: i feel like it would be easier just to completely separate the distortion value from the hidden value
18:05:43 <mroman_> It might even be the case, that the result depends on which cell the interpreter updateds first
18:06:16 <quintopia> mroman_: only let hidden values create distortion, and only add the distortion in when doing computation on the cell's value
18:06:35 <quintopia> (although, i don't know if this is actually "easy" or makes a difference at all...
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18:07:38 <mroman_> I have the feeling that the result might depend on whether an interpreter updates the cell to the left first or if he updates the cell to the right first
18:14:10 <Vorpal> mroman_, hm, why not apply both at once?
18:18:42 <mroman_> It's currently just an idea
18:30:25 <ion> Affected bones would glow a greenish-white colour in the dark. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phossy_jaw
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18:49:20 <mroman_> Everybode is welcome to write an interpreter or contribute to/for Spacefish :)
19:08:02 <mroman_> Are you trying to troll me?
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19:28:08 <kmc> https://twitter.com/Gequeoman/status/406485957442285568
19:31:23 <mroman_> Let's hope there's some session id in it so somebody can hijack it
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19:59:13 <nortti> http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/12/01/047207/dial-00000000-to-blow-up-the-world
20:02:00 <Bike> nice and easy to remember
20:10:09 <kmc> and chickens
20:10:23 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Peacock#Chicken_power
20:10:43 <kmc> "It does seem like an April Fool but it most certainly is not. The Civil Service does not do jokes." ah that dry british sense of humour
20:13:25 <Bike> i wonder if anyon'es written a dedicated thing about the storied history of chickens in the cold war
20:14:08 <Bike> there's that, there's skinner's thing... maybe biopreparat tried to invent avian flu at some point
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20:39:14 <ais523> [21:39] [CTCP] Received CTCP-TIME reply from ais523: Sun Dec 1 21:39:02 2013.
20:39:48 <ais523> nah, look at the timezone
20:40:17 <zzo38> It isn't new year yet.
20:40:23 <zzo38> (Except the liturgical year)
20:40:48 <quintopia> not something i would have thought to look for without prompting
20:43:02 <ais523> in a ctcp-time response?
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20:48:09 <zzo38> Do you think someone who is deaf and dumb for his entire lifetime can write music?
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20:50:03 <tswett__> @djinn ((((a -> e) -> e) -> a) -> e) -> e
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20:54:03 <nooodl> ais523: cool, where in france are you?
20:54:24 <ais523> it's like two towns across from Paris in the south-east direction
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20:54:49 <shachaf> kmc: oh, there was a whole second discussion about that two-line patch where it was reverted?
20:55:11 <kmc> discussion on that commit? yes
20:55:15 <kmc> i've been avoiding that
20:55:44 <shachaf> and i guess also twitter discussion
21:00:58 <quintopia> zzo38: only if he learns to play pinball first
21:02:46 <kmc> quintopia++
21:04:12 <ais523> I can read a smallish proportion of it, but can't understand spoken french, and can't speak it any better than barely intelligibly
21:05:03 <quintopia> do you have french-speaking friends around to smooth your way, or just depending on the ubiquity of english?
21:05:31 <ais523> it's a conference, everyone at the conference itself speaks English
21:05:50 <ais523> and enough of them speak French that so long as someone else is around, I can mostly navigate the non-conferency bits
21:06:02 <kmc> what conference?
21:06:39 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:07:16 <ais523> it's a workshop on bounded linear logic
21:07:17 <ais523> not sure if it has a name
21:07:41 <shachaf> did you know chu spaces are a model for linear logic
21:07:57 <shachaf> "Just as !A weakens A to a poset (when K=2), ?A dually strengthens A to a distributive lattice, the dual notion to a poset." etc.
21:09:05 -!- ais523 has quit.
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21:09:51 <shachaf> and ^_|_ is just transposing the matrix and so on
21:11:46 <ais523> huh, how does Oj742_smartlock beat timer clears?
21:12:36 <ais523> ah, it tries to shudder
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21:14:05 <ais523> in general, it just seems like a cleverer version of defend9, though
21:14:14 <ais523> which is great, I thought defend9-style programs had no chance nowadays
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21:14:47 <kmc> it should have a bounded linear name
21:15:21 <kmc> shachaf: what are ! and ?, also what are chu spaces, help
21:17:09 <shachaf> kmc: i think !X means "as many as you want of X"
21:17:21 <shachaf> but someone who knows what they're talking about might correct me
21:17:44 <shachaf> (and ?X means "as many as i want of X"? maybe? help)
21:18:05 <shachaf> and chu spaces are the best thing but i don't understand them very well yet
21:19:24 <ais523> ?X means "an X that you don't have to use if you don't want to"
21:19:26 <shachaf> i think ! is like a comonad and ? is like a monad?
21:19:34 <ais523> normally in linear logic, you can't throw data away
21:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> so what, a chu space is just an arbitrary bunch of subsets?
21:20:14 <shachaf> wait, wasn't ?X "you have to use exactly N xs and i specify what N is"?
21:20:24 <ais523> no, that's just X by itself
21:20:32 <shachaf> Isn't X itself "exactly 1"?
21:20:37 <ais523> I never work with the whole linear logic
21:20:37 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Not even subsets exactly, since you drop extensionality.
21:21:00 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: But see http://chu.stanford.edu/ or something.
21:21:36 <shachaf> I remember ! being associated with comonoids.
21:22:19 <shachaf> (Not comonoids in Chu in general, which are also interesting things.)
21:22:32 <kmc> trapped in chu space, send help
21:22:57 <shachaf> (If you solve http://thue.stanford.edu/puzzle.html about comonoids in Chu, you'll win a prize from Pratt!)
21:24:55 <shachaf> kmc: do you know topological space
21:25:00 <shachaf> chu space is a bit like that
21:25:02 <kmc> i know the definition
21:25:05 <kmc> can't do anything w/ them
21:25:33 <kmc> "chu space" seems to be one of those concepts like "category" which incorporates all of math by being incredibly general
21:27:17 <shachaf> "One can nevertheless reasonably ask where the vein of rich mathematical structures starts to peter out. The answer is that, in at least two technical senses, Chu spaces are a universal Theory of Everything."
21:27:51 <shachaf> but it's not so general as to be uninteresting
21:28:19 <shachaf> or maybe it is, i don't know
21:28:46 <FireFly> spec98 says # "moves the IP one position beyond the next Funge-Space cell in its path"; how does that interact with wraparound?
21:29:48 <FireFly> i.e. would 'x #' execute x once, or on and on forever? cfunge seems to go with the latter, so I'm guessing that's the correct interpretation
21:30:04 <shachaf> kmc: do you know the perspective of "observability" in topological spaces
21:30:22 <shachaf> e.g. http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/02/what-is-topology.html
21:31:09 <ais523> FireFly: it's actually normally considered an officially ambiguous part of the spec
21:31:17 <ais523> Mycology doesn't complain at you whatever you decide, for instance
21:31:32 <ais523> although it will mention it, in passing
21:31:50 <FireFly> The former interpretation would be more useful for golfing
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21:52:15 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/0xabad1dea/7740977 on topic!
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22:13:44 <Taneb> What's the non-commutative group with the smallest order?
22:15:15 * kmc used to know this
22:15:17 <kmc> think it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral_group_of_order_6
22:16:20 <Taneb> "The smallest non-abelian group has 6 elements."
22:16:25 <Taneb> First sentence of that page
22:18:48 <kmc> `thanks HackEgo
22:18:49 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
22:18:56 <kmc> `paste bin/thanks
22:18:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/thanks
22:20:26 <kmc> `thanks eeeeeeexxxxxxx
22:20:27 <HackEgo> Thanks, eeeeeeexxxxxxx. Theeeeeeexxxxxxx.
22:21:03 <kmc> `run echo eeeeeeexxxxxxx | perl -pe 's/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/;'
22:21:41 <kmc> oh the second carrot means not
22:21:47 <kmc> `thanks xxxxxxeeeeee
22:21:48 <HackEgo> Thanks, xxxxxxeeeeee. Theeeeee.
22:22:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nothanks: not found
22:23:24 <Taneb> groups does not have a bug in it
22:23:28 <Taneb> My mind was double-wrong
22:24:09 <Taneb> I love it when I'm double-wrong
22:24:19 <Taneb> It's all the best bits of being right, AND all the best bits of being wrong
22:25:11 <kmc> what's 'groups'
22:25:23 <kmc> i don't like it when a program has the same bug in two ways though
22:25:46 <kmc> it can take forever with the usual approach of "make one change and see if the bug went away and revert if not"
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22:59:09 <Taneb> kmc, Haskell library with a Group class
22:59:30 <Taneb> It may have been me thinking about it, seeing a shortcut, then forgetting about the shortcut
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23:46:51 <Taneb> The Brogue code looks like I could concievable understand it well enough to modify it if I wanted to
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23:58:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i didn't realise until now that bitcoin is, like, inherently designed to collapse once mining becomes unprofitable
00:00:24 <Slereah> It needs to be revitalized by drug money
00:03:18 <oerjan> i'd imagine moore's law figures in that somehow.
00:07:21 <int-e> In theory, there's some sort of equilibrium (the fewer miners there are the more attractive it is to mining), and of course a competition for mining faster and more cheaply (this explains the move to ASICs that happened this year.)
00:08:03 <oerjan> the fewer miners part doesn't apply if there's no _marginal_ profit at all.
00:09:50 <Phantom_Hoover> also that profitability needs to sustain all bitcoin transactions happening everywhere
00:09:53 <int-e> there are supposed to be transaction fees to compensate for the lack of new coins being minted
00:18:47 <elliott> mining stops eventually, anyway?
00:19:15 <Fiora> I think it continues forever?
00:19:31 <elliott> oh. I guess I don't understand how bitcoin works then
00:20:31 <Fiora> I think like. mining gets you new coins + transaction fees
00:20:39 <Fiora> and the new coins slowly trail off?
00:21:10 <elliott> so it never actually reaches the total number of bitcoins, just approaches it slower and slower?
00:21:17 <lexande> no, it eventually reaches it
00:21:56 <Fiora> I think like it gives 50 per block, then 25, then 12.5.... plus transaction fees?
00:22:07 <elliott> then surely mining eventually gets you 0 coins? what would be the point to mining then?
00:22:24 <Fiora> I think the transaction fees?
00:22:25 <int-e> "mining" is the process of signing blocks of transactions. that needs to be done to keep the system going. the freshly minted coins are an incentive for doing so, but as I mentioned, transaction fees are possible (with transactions having fewer incoming coins than outgoing coins; the remainder can be claimed by whoever does the proof of work for the transaction's block)
00:23:24 <lexande> the quantities are finite precision so eventually it does reach 0
00:25:28 <int-e> (oddly I trust bitcoins about as far as I can throw them :) )
00:30:58 <int-e> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ ... the growth in (totally wasted!) computing power is crazy.
00:34:16 <oerjan> clearly the future belongs to spamcoin, a cryptographically secure currency based on solving captchas.
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00:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, has anyone tried working out accusatory stats like power costs and carbon footprint yet
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00:43:16 <int-e> Hmm. Last I checked, ASIC hardware was computing about a billion hashes per Joule. (which is a couple of 100s times better than GPUs; I have no numbers for FPGAs, but they should be inbetween)
00:44:42 <int-e> So we have something like a 6MW lower bound on the power usage, and it's likely to be quite a bit more.
00:45:30 <int-e> 20MW? 100MW? I don't know :)
00:49:33 <int-e> actually https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison has MHash/J numbers for a fairly wide range of hardware, including FPGAs
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01:07:31 <int-e> what kind of scam is this? http://carbonjar.com/
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01:36:58 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/b?node=8037720011
01:37:07 <kmc> Amazon is going to start delivering packages by drone, as soon as the FAA will let them
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01:40:17 <kmc> Bike: http://www.amazon.com/b?node=8037720011 Amazon is going to start delivering packages by drone, as soon as the FAA will let them
01:41:04 <Bike> i'm amused that i first heard that from a foreign policy person
01:41:31 <Bike> anyway i don't thnk i see the point
01:43:14 <Bike> maybe it's just me personally but the only thing i've wanted delivered in less than half an hour is dinner
01:43:49 <kmc> well my house runs on Google Shopping Express
01:44:00 <kmc> we don't *need* things same-day but it's convenient
01:44:15 <kmc> (helps that GSE's prices are ridiculously unsustainably low)
01:44:47 <kmc> when Amazon Prime was first announced I thought it was silly to care about getting stuff in 2 days instead of 7ish but now it feels like a big reason to buy things on amazon
01:45:03 <Bike> well i don't use that >_>
01:45:12 <kmc> i have it for free for now but i'm probably hooked
01:45:16 <kmc> you raise the level of convenience available and give people a taste and they won't go back
01:45:20 <Bike> i think i'm just unsure what to think of megacorporations being run by sci-fi fans
01:45:20 <kmc> first hit's free, kids
01:45:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, can't be worse than them being run by businessmen
01:45:52 <kmc> they are definitely run by businesspeople, whether or not they're also sci-fi fans
01:46:03 <Bike> when i think of things being run by engineers i think of chinese dams.
01:46:16 <kmc> don't kid yourself that the CEO of a $180B company is not a businessman
01:46:40 <Bike> sure. and i mean they're all ignoring the 'mass social inequality is bad' bits of cyberpunk anyway
01:46:45 <kmc> just cause you share some culture that was subcultural in the distant past
01:46:47 <kmc> also I don't think ultra-fast delivery has to be a big part of the value proposition
01:47:18 <kmc> thanks P_H for that thing you do
01:48:00 <kmc> (didn't little rich boys reading 30s pulp sci-fi grow up to be businessmen too?)
01:48:37 <kmc> drones have the potential to be cheaper and a lot easier to manage logistically
01:49:00 <kmc> compared to a big heavy gasoline-powered truck with a human inside, run by a third party
01:49:09 <kmc> but I dunno, I haven't run the numbers or anything
01:50:05 <kmc> then again the best ways to move huge amounts of cargo slowly hasn't changed that much in 100 years
01:50:10 <kmc> boats and trains
01:50:17 <kmc> containerization is a big deal though
01:50:34 * Bike imagines his dad breaking in "I think you mean SHIPS, kmc"
01:51:06 <Bike> there's a lot of shipping stuff up and down the columbia, it's neat, though
01:51:58 <Phantom_Hoover> gasoline-powered as opposed to what, kerosene-powered?
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01:55:20 <oerjan> hm i wonder how those projects on making kerosene from algae are going.
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01:58:42 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: mostly, small quadrotor drones are electric, I didn't check about this one though
01:59:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oh i assumed they'd be like, jet uavs with boxes of books on little parachutes
02:02:43 <kmc> that would be awesome
02:02:46 <kmc> ballistic package delivery
02:02:51 <kmc> your pizza in 30 minutes or the next one's free
02:03:02 <kmc> Bike: here's an interesting theory https://twitter.com/tcarmody/status/407321435016032256
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02:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> wouldn't ballistic delivery be a massive artillery cannon firing delivery shells
02:13:30 <zzo38> A few weeks ago I saw someone repairing a Coca-Cola vending machine and once they closed it and left, they left the configuration menu active, so I was able to see the error messages in it and the sale count and so on; I don't know what all of the options mean though.
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02:29:18 <Bike> kmc: you know i was actually thinking that
02:29:25 <Bike> well, i didn't make the china connection
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02:34:11 <kmc> zzo38: neato
02:34:26 <kmc> I remember back in like 1998 reading about coke machines that were connected to the internet and thinking "wow that's cool"
02:34:38 <kmc> there's probably a Serious Business usecase for that now
02:34:52 <Bike> what are they on the internet for? remote reconfiguration?
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02:35:39 <Bike> price of dr pepper is raised one dollar in the middle of my purchase and i am arrested for fraud
02:36:06 <kmc> i imagine it could be useful for logistics
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03:22:39 <quintopia> zzo38: a lot of machines leave the default passcode for the debug menu
03:28:30 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes I know, I have tried; on those machines I usually find the menu has read-only options, and you cannot do anything other than read the sale count, cash, and error message.
03:29:06 <quintopia> but it's very interesting to see which drinks sell most
03:29:36 <zzo38> Yes, you can check that.
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03:48:55 <kmc> "@SnoopDogg: My next record available in bitcoin n delivered in a drone."
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04:02:53 <quintopia> of course, he'd have to charge like 2BTC to be able to pay for the drone
04:04:01 <quintopia> plus you'd have to be crazy to pay in a deflationary currency
04:11:51 <zzo38> Maybe they are crazy enough.
04:13:28 <kmc> itym "you'd have to be high to pay in a deflationary currency"
04:15:26 <shachaf> kmc: i thought it was "you have to pay in a deflationary currency to get high"
04:20:51 <kmc> it's back i thought
04:21:00 <kmc> something else with that name anyway
04:29:41 <quintopia> kmc: BUT HOW CAN WE TRUST SOMETHING LIKE THAT EVER AGAAIN
04:29:58 <Bike> silk road probably
04:31:01 <quintopia> shachaf: WE'LL NEVER GET QUALITY CHINESE CLOCKS AGAIN
04:42:26 <zzo38> I am writing Z-machine in Famicom. Currently I have 780 non-comment lines. (counted using egrep -cv $'^[\t ]*(;|$)')
04:43:45 <zzo38> Why does it seem many programs today fail to follow the UNIX way of using filters and pipes and that stuff?
04:44:34 <kmc> tomorrow on jerkcity: QUALITY CHINESE CL?OCKS
04:45:32 <Bike> has unix ever actually been pipe-based or has it been based on inconsitent arcane command linearguments forever
04:46:42 <zzo38> Bike: Well, a lot of things are; lp is although dvilj4 isn't unless its argument is -
04:47:26 <Bike> how about, like, ls. or dd.
04:48:28 <zzo38> Well, ls is designed for output, not input; dd is not using the common syntax of other commands due to some strange reason, although it does use stdin/stdout if you don't tell it the filenames otherwise.
04:48:32 <quintopia> zzo38: probably because the unix way of doing things is not actually the best way for every situation?
04:49:04 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, it isn't best for everything, but there is a lot of things it would work for but that they don't do it that way.
04:49:26 <Bike> zzo38: i mean, ls does all its own coloring and sorting and stuff.
04:49:35 <L8D> is there a turing complete language with only 2 instructions?
04:49:40 <quintopia> zzo38: it doesn't really make sense for imagemagick, for instance. imagemagick is a lot simpler the way it is
04:50:17 <quintopia> bitchanger, perhaps? just go to the tarpits section of the wiki and poke around.
04:50:52 <Bike> L8D: sk combinators?
04:50:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, for ImageMagick, it still does need the command to tell it the file type and all that stuff, and you might have more than one file; yet it still helps that you can tell it to use stdin/stdout if you don't give a filename (you still need the type) and that can be useful too
04:51:14 <L8D> Bike: what is that supposed to mean?
04:51:23 <Bike> L8D: sk combinator calculus
04:51:36 <zzo38> But I think for dvilj4 it would make more sense to use pipe/filter (dvilj4 is a program to convert DVI to PCL)
04:52:52 <L8D> sk combinators need i combinators to be turing complete
04:53:01 <L8D> and bitchanger is 4 instructions
04:53:05 <quintopia> L8D: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Impera
04:53:06 <zzo38> L8D: No, it doesn't, i can be made from sk
04:53:21 <oerjan> L8D: also /// is TC with only / and \
04:53:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Like oerjan said, i = skk
04:54:20 <L8D> well, I’m looking for something that can be hidden in the bits of a file
04:54:35 <shachaf> zzo38: i thought you said you can be made from sk
04:54:45 <oerjan> L8D: take a look at iota and jot
04:54:49 <quintopia> L8D: you can hide any language in the bits of a file.
04:55:09 <L8D> I’m talking about instruction-per-birt
04:55:40 <Bike> it would be nice if there was some general way to put larger data into smaller data units
04:55:41 <quintopia> hmm can't think of any like that off the top of my head
04:55:46 <Bike> like if there was some kind of code
04:56:00 <Bike> but: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag
04:56:35 <L8D> Bitwise Cyclic Tag works...I guess
04:57:38 <shachaf> you know how when you have italic text inside other italic text you just un-italic it?
04:57:54 <L8D> in what scenario?
04:58:07 <L8D> you can do nested italics tags in HTML
04:58:16 <zzo38> shachaf: In MediaWiki, do you mean?
04:58:18 <L8D> <i>Foo<i>Var</i></i>
04:58:36 <quintopia> L8D: Jot might be more compact than BCT
04:58:40 <zzo38> And you can use HTML italics in MediaWiki too
04:59:02 <quintopia> here's a bunch of others to try: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_tarpits
05:00:10 <zzo38> I once read on Wikipedia some article about classical logic, one of the sections game what looks to me like SK calculus with one more rule dealing with negation.
05:03:35 <oerjan> SK calculus is like the curry-howard correspondence for the hilbert axioms of logic.
05:04:12 <oerjan> oops pressed return too fast
05:04:32 <kmc> it occurs that i have the first google hit for "ptrace for breakfast"
05:05:11 <quintopia> i just came up with an idea for a two-instruction tape-based imperative TC lang
05:05:21 <quintopia> because i couldn't find one on the wiki
05:05:23 <shachaf> i like ptrace and breakfast
05:05:50 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry-Howard_correspondence#Correspondence_between_Hilbert-style_deduction_systems_and_combinatory_logic
05:06:15 <Bike> has there ever been a relevant dilbert parody
05:06:38 <oerjan> hilbert, not dilbert, bike
05:07:12 <Bike> no i mean dilbert but about hilbert
05:09:54 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know how many nested conditionals are required to implement the simplest turing machine
05:09:55 <oerjan> maybe they could reanimate him as a zombie or something
05:23:35 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know of a lang that is TC without being capable of nested loops or conditionals, or which bounds the number of nested loops or conditionals?
05:24:10 <Bike> what do you mean by capable
05:25:17 <quintopia> i thought it was obvious. why do you ask that?
05:25:52 <Bike> because (one) if it's TC it can emulate a system with unbounded loops (two) we were just talking about combinators which you surely know about and don't have loops or conditionals
05:26:44 <quintopia> well again, i'm thinking only about imperative langs here
05:27:35 <quintopia> i mean that if you want to do unbounded loops
05:27:52 <quintopia> because the lang itself supports no such constructs in its syntax
05:28:02 <quintopia> (or unbounded nested conditionals)
05:28:51 <Bike> ok, scheme doesn't have loops, how about that.
05:29:40 <quintopia> i always thought of scheme as mostly functional
05:30:28 -!- oerjan has set topic: IT HAS BEGIN | Although maybe if something else strange is done, it might not? | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:31:14 <Bike> it has a special form (or maybe it's a macro, who cares), "begin", that does a sequence of things one at a time. "imperative"
05:31:17 <quintopia> okay let's make it simpler: know of any imperative TAPE languages with bounded depth of loop/conditional?
05:31:40 <quintopia> (of course more simple means morel ikely to get a "no" but i have to try)
05:31:43 <oerjan> pretty sure bf is TC with bounded depth.
05:31:59 <Bike> yeah, there you go.
05:32:49 <oerjan> probably as little as two deep.
05:33:31 <oerjan> a main loop to keep things running, and subloops to do various conditional stuff.
05:33:48 <Bike> any implementation of another language in brainfuck would establish a bound, no
05:34:00 <quintopia> yeah i'm looking at the TM impl in BF.
05:34:42 <Bike> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/dbfi.b a bound: however deep this is
05:35:05 <Bike> like five or six probably
05:44:26 <kmc> oh i was just looking at that
05:44:50 <Bike> or you could just write a SUBLEQ interpreter or some shit
05:49:30 <zzo38> Do any SQL systems support trigger indices? (Meaning an index on a field of a table or view, but not for the data, but rather for all triggers on it having conditions where one of them is separated by AND and tests if that field is equal to some value, then it places it in that index slot.)
05:53:54 <kmc> regclobber.c:69:5: warning: ‘main’ is normally a non-static function [-Wmain]
05:53:57 <kmc> exciting variation!
05:54:13 <kmc> also the syntax for attributes on function definitions is f'd up
05:54:13 <kmc> void __attribute__((noreturn)) finish(int retval) {
05:55:02 <kmc> vs for a declaration: void finish(int retval) __attribute__((noreturn));
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05:58:44 <Bike> why'd they switch the order on declarations
05:59:35 <kmc> probably some awful syntactic ambiguity
06:03:34 <kmc> GiveDirectly expanded into Uganda: http://www.givedirectly.org/blog_post.php?id=4639869356775728332
06:03:39 <kmc> "In the extremely rural areas where we chose to work, few households possessed government IDs (required to register for mobile money) so we had to find creative ways to expedite ID procurement"
06:03:48 <kmc> no further detail is given
06:09:56 <L8D> What channel do I go to for cryptography?
06:10:10 <L8D> I want to ask them what book I should buy
06:10:32 <zzo38> I had a book once but I forget the title
06:10:37 <Bike> i liked scheiner's.
06:10:41 <Bike> kinda informal i guess.
06:11:08 <kmc> Applied Cryptography?
06:11:10 <kmc> it's... outdated
06:11:12 <kmc> http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2013/07/22/applied-practical-cryptography/
06:11:25 <Bike> shows what i know.
06:11:33 <kmc> Cryptography Engineering is supposedly better
06:11:58 <kmc> the ##crypto topic links to http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac
06:12:08 <kmc> cool how these books all have almost the same title, eh?
06:12:43 <Bike> my book will be titled "engineering applications of cryptography"
06:15:39 <zzo38> Whatever book it was I read, explained several things including encrypted poker games and secret sharing algorithms.
06:16:33 <zzo38> Select any point in the plane and generate a bunch of equations of lines all of which pass through the point; you need any two of them to figure out what point is meant.
06:17:51 <kmc> those are cool yeah
06:18:01 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think about zero knowledge proofs?
06:18:31 <kmc> they're pretty neat
06:18:35 <zzo38> (Several things would have to be taken into account to make a secure implementation though, I think)
06:19:26 <zzo38> kmc: I didn't really remember much about how zero knowledge proof works; maybe I can look it up later to understand better
06:19:49 <kmc> ZKP that I know a 3-coloring of some graph we both have: i write down colors for every vertex on slips of paper and put them face down on the table. you pick an edge. i reveal those slips and burn the rest. you see that they name different colors
06:20:27 <kmc> we repeat this until you're convinced i'm not just lucky. but i randomly permute the 3 colors between rounds so that you can't assemble an overall coloring
06:20:54 <kmc> for an electronic version, replace slips of paper with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commitment_scheme
06:21:00 <zzo38> Ah, OK. Yes I have read about that (but I think not in a book though)
06:21:22 <Bike> it's pretty amusing to imagine this actually being done with slips of paper
06:21:28 <shachaf> kmc: "commitment scheme" would be a good name for a lisp dialect
06:21:29 <Bike> between outlaws in the wild west, perhaps
06:21:39 <kmc> which is similar to "encrypt them and then reveal some keys" but actual encryption schemes don't have all the desired technical properties
06:21:42 <Bike> refusing to reveal the knowledge of where the treasure is
06:21:55 <kmc> that would be awesome Bike
06:22:10 <kmc> you should write this story
06:23:45 <Bike> it would be easier to plot if it was a hamiltonian cycle or something instead
06:23:56 <shachaf> what about negative-knowledge proofs
06:24:06 <shachaf> where you end up being more confused than when you started
06:24:10 <kmc> TA's lament
06:24:18 <kmc> also student's lament I guess
06:25:11 <Bike> pretty sure that is bike's lament
06:26:01 <kmc> traditional ZKPs are all interactive like that, but there are non-interactive variants
06:26:14 <Bike> huh, i didn't know hamilton tried to make 3ions for path finding
06:26:27 <Bike> somehow i forgot that it's the same hamilton as quaternions
06:26:37 <kmc> where I hash the problem description and use the bits of the hash output as your random choices
06:26:38 <shachaf> what's a good non-interactive zkp
06:27:00 <kmc> and provide enough answers that it's implausible I brute-force tweaked the problem description to get favorable coin flips
06:27:17 <kmc> i don't understand all the subtleties of how to make this work properly
06:27:23 <shachaf> where can i read about that
06:27:37 <kmc> Zerocoin uses non-interactive ZKPs, committment schemes, *and* one-way accumulators to build true anonymity into the bitcoin block chain
06:27:40 <kmc> p. cool stuff
06:27:49 <kmc> shachaf: don't know but "non-interactive zero-knowledge proof" should be a decent search term
06:27:53 <kmc> i bet the zerocoin paper has citations too
06:27:54 <Bike> obviously snoop is on the wrong boat
06:28:36 <Bike> i think anonymously buying an album with complementary weed from snoop with zerocoin would be the most cyberpunk thing i could do in my lifetime
06:30:28 <shachaf> what's that music thing that sometimes is played at the end of some old films
06:41:59 <zzo38> In a 6502 code, is asl a asl a asl a php php ror a plp ror a plp ror a a proper way to sign-extend a number?
06:42:56 <Sgeo_> http://i.imgur.com/ZgXds9B.png
06:43:33 <Sgeo_> "Ah. I guess it's supposed to various. Unnecessary but kinda makes sense."
06:43:43 <kmc> anti-various protection
06:43:54 <shachaf> "anti-various pro" yes that
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07:04:04 <zzo38> Are there any computers (or VMs) other than VAX that have an "increment immediate" instruction?
07:07:14 <zzo38> Increments the instruction operand itself rather than whatever it points to
07:08:21 <zzo38> (Of course it won't work if the instructions are stored in ROM, but if that address is also mapped to bankswitching or something else, then it would affect that too)
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07:52:26 <kmc> ah you can also do __attribute__((noreturn)) void finish(int retval) { ...
07:53:28 <kmc> so it's like 'static' or whatever... you can do void static f(...) as well
07:53:28 <kmc> that's a bit less terrible
08:00:33 <zzo38> Do you know any cheat code for Pokemon Card GB2 to cause it to always use six side cards instead of four?
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08:07:00 <kmc> shachaf: one interesting property of ZKPs is that if you watch a recording of me convincing zzo38 i can 3-color this graph, you are still not convinced at all
08:07:04 <kmc> because we might have colluded
08:07:30 <kmc> it's a weird sort of "knowledge" which can't be transferred
08:07:33 <kmc> but non-interactive ZKPs do not have this property clearly
08:08:05 <zzo38> kmc: I noticed that just a minute ago when I looked on Wikipedia, it says something like that too.
08:10:13 <kmc> oh i didn't know that ZKPs came from the same paper which introduced the IP complexity class hierarchy
08:18:22 <shachaf> kmc: can zzo38 convince me that the ZKP was convincing without actually knowing your secret
08:23:56 <kmc> probably not
08:24:19 <kmc> maybe he can do something like a n-i ZKP but not reveal to me that this is where the bits came from
08:24:22 <kmc> and then reveal it to you later
08:25:10 <kmc> or use the hash of today's jerkcity strip or w/e
08:30:38 <zzo38> Are there any variant of zero-knowledge proof which is involving quantum entanglement?
08:32:25 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://blog.sigfpe.com/2013/10/distributed-computing-with-alien.html
08:35:59 <kmc> interesting
08:36:21 <kmc> "If the conjecture is true it means that nature looks a bit like a conspiracy to keep computer scientists in work." yes i've wondered that
08:37:43 <Bike> full employment theorem, mexican hat functionn,
08:37:44 <kmc> perhaps the anthropic principle applies and all the universes where computer stuff is easy have already been tiled with smiley faces
08:41:53 <FireFly> I think we should query fungot for input on the topic
08:41:53 <fungot> FireFly: wrong channel to let that go.), but that was the great thing about perl is what i've done so. the dynamic analyses assume an open world, and i'll be pretty happy with araneida ( in cl parlance)? so i can just use this and skip the actual installation
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08:59:39 <kmc> `run perl -e 'print "☺" x 1024'
08:59:42 <HackEgo> ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺
09:00:01 <shachaf> hm did that render for you
09:00:04 <kmc> `run ls bin | paste
09:00:07 <kmc> no (screen?)
09:00:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27992
09:00:24 <shachaf> but it's not showing up in tmux either :'(
09:00:34 <shachaf> it's U+1F60D SMILING CAT FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES
09:01:06 <shachaf> that's just a SMILING FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES
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09:01:09 <shachaf> i was cheated out of a cat!
09:01:18 <shachaf> at least it's showing up in the logs
09:02:03 <kmc> `run echo '#!/usr/bin/perl -e' > bin/perl-e && chmod +x bin/perl-e
09:02:27 <kmc> `perl-e print "Vanilla milkshakes from Hard Rock cafes\n"
09:02:28 <HackEgo> Bareword found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "/hackenv/bin" \ (Missing operator before bin?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "/hackenv/bin" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
09:02:48 <kmc> `which perl
09:03:36 <kmc> `run printf '#!/bin/bash\n\nperl -e "$@"\n' > bin/perl-e && chmod +x bin/perl-e
09:03:54 <kmc> `perl-e "Enlarged by nature to show true texture.\n"
09:03:59 <kmc> `perl-e print "Enlarged by nature to show true texture.\n"
09:04:00 <HackEgo> Enlarged by nature to show true texture.
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09:06:25 <kmc> `perl-e print "It's the devil's way now. You have not been " . "paying attention " x 8
09:06:26 <HackEgo> It's the devil's way now. You have not been paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention
09:07:57 <kmc> fungot: go and tell the king that the sky is falling in when it's not
09:07:57 <fungot> kmc: how so? it's not just thin syntactic sugar whereby multi could expand to ( atan z) be expanded to ( if let ( begin ( while ( vi pivot)) to ( begin ( blah...)
09:09:05 <kmc> oklopol_: are you in chile?
09:16:43 <FireFly> the sky is expanding to (atan z)!
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09:30:45 <FireFly> If you have a grammar, a string, a corresponding AST, and a change in the string (insertion/removal), and want to augment the AST by applying the change to it.. does that problem have a name?
09:31:28 <Bike> 'stuck writing Eclipse' seems like a problem to me
09:46:34 <mroman_> FireFly: http://codepad.org/98Q1bM4w
09:49:48 <mroman_> turns out the middle cell becomes 10
09:56:39 <mroman_> (Distortion does not cause other distortion now)
09:57:58 <mroman_> So one has to take distortion only into account when comparing cell values
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10:13:22 <kmc> shachaf: don't you love that a file with the name <sys/user.h> is actually something super specific "for GDB and GDB only... Don't use it for anything other than GDB"
10:15:37 <shachaf> You more or less have to use this file for ptrace.
10:19:10 <kmc> (or you can use <sys/reg.h> if you want to get them one at a time with PTRACE_PEEKUSER, but I think that's not supported on all architectures either)
10:19:15 <shachaf> then again, maybe using ptrace coutns as "you know what you are doing"
10:19:20 <kmc> i think so yes
10:19:26 <kmc> "that's why i go out of my way to use ptrace"
10:19:36 <kmc> i think there's also a polite fiction that only gdb needs to use ptrace
10:19:50 <shachaf> Well, ptrace(2) specifically mentions sys/user.h
10:19:52 <kmc> or was n years ago when that comment was written
10:20:02 <shachaf> what about strace (the best program)
10:20:15 <kmc> i wonder where I read to use reg.h
10:20:22 <kmc> if strace is so great why isn't it ltrace or lltrace
10:20:29 <kmc> or.... dtrace
10:20:42 <shachaf> or that program i never got around to writing to trace mmap accesses
10:20:50 <kmc> sorry i meant latrace not lltrace
10:21:10 <kmc> i have had the misfortune to need xtrace as well
10:21:31 <shachaf> i've either needed xtrace or not needed it and used it anyway
10:21:48 <shachaf> i've never used latrace (or heard of it) and i've barely used dtrace
10:22:20 <kmc> latrace is like ltrace but it uses LD_AUDIT to do its thing
10:22:41 <kmc> LD_AUDIT is one of those features obscure enough that the first google hit is "GNU glibc Dynamic Linker 'LD_AUDIT' Local Privilege Escalation"
10:22:55 <kmc> but it's useful for things other than writing exploits
10:23:58 <shachaf> imo write a combined {syscall,ray} tracer
10:36:37 <kmc> it will VISUALIZE the inside of the kernel
10:51:32 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/BUQd best model?
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12:13:12 <Taneb> Which is that popular language which is strong and static typed in a hideous way
12:15:38 <Taneb> One that I can say "If you're coming from ___ you may thing that strong, static typing in Haskell is scary"
12:15:46 <Taneb> Or ugly or whatever
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14:08:27 <boily> good what-happened-to-the-/topic morning!
14:10:48 <int-e> 06:29:40 <quintopia> i always thought of scheme as mostly functional
14:10:49 <int-e> 06:30:00 <Bike> it has begin.
14:12:34 <boily> makes no sense. perhaps after this kernel upgrade, I'll receive enlightenment.
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14:14:24 <ais523> well, Verity has begin (in the Algol sense)
14:14:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if it counts as functional or not, but not for that reason
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14:15:32 <fizzie> "Volume: PP, Issue: 99" I don't think these values are quite final.
14:15:38 <ais523> boily: try putting quotes around "begin", does it make more sense then?
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15:47:03 <boily> `frink 0.1 g -> dr
15:47:19 <boily> `frink 0.1 g -> gr
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16:01:57 <boily> “lens continues its plans for world-domination…” ← http://ocharles.org.uk/blog/posts/2013-12-01-24-days-of-hackage-intro.html
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16:11:22 <FireFly> Has lens grown sentinent yet?
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16:23:13 <boily> FireFly: only once every possible operator will be covered.
16:23:18 <oerjan> <FireFly> [...] does that problem have a name? <-- incremental parsing?
16:27:17 <FireFly> oerjan: that's what I tried looking for initially, but I mostly found stuff using "incremental" to mean "you feed input to the parser continuously" instead
16:27:19 <oerjan> sadly the term seems not to be used consistently.
16:27:32 <oerjan> yeah i notice that haskell package
16:27:46 <oerjan> but the yi link clearly talks about the kind you want.
16:29:27 <oerjan> http://yi-editor.blogspot.no/2008/11/incremental-parsing-in-yi.html
16:30:02 <oerjan> it would be _so_ nice if google let you copy links from its search page without revisiting them.
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16:30:58 <FireFly> That seems to be precisely what I want, yes
16:43:11 <int-e> next they will tell you that blue skies are blue
16:48:09 <int-e> mrhmouse: I count 1/4/3. that makes a lousy haiku. you should try again.
16:51:03 <oerjan> is Halite[tablet] saying he has delirium from fever
16:51:29 <boily> ~duck febentanasia
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16:51:55 <Halite[tablet]> Febenebenebenebenebenebdbennebebebebebebbebnrtanassssssiiaiaaaaaa
16:51:59 <oerjan> oh no, you infected metasepia!
16:52:30 <boily> oerjan: he did, the vile scallywag that he is. I can't make it reconnect anymore now.
16:52:43 <oerjan> int-e: ic what you did there.
16:52:44 * boily glares at Halite[tablet] “the Wrath of the Krakenoïd Bod will be Terrible!”
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16:53:49 * boily swings his usual, standardised maple bat over at Halite[tablet] *SCHMWHACK*
16:54:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
16:54:24 <Halite[tablet]> Febrndnasoa, hertrmasia gens sips meeeesus geesun schmesian whesiak
16:54:43 <HackEgo> jkfficia congonop diaphing 201310 cytoian ication xirn samg gosemple affendative
16:55:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15093
16:56:21 <Halite[tablet]> Pegendenasia olfolonsia 73, derisia mazenipooian jxjjchdhcdks do sk jci kid md me KFC kv... Zzzzzzzz
16:57:35 <FireFly> Halite[tablet]: we already have one HackEgo instance in here, we don't need another
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17:04:50 <oerjan> <boily> good what-happened-to-the-/topic morning! <-- it's a new begunning!
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17:16:43 <int-e> begin, began, begun, be gone!
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17:53:17 <boily> good quinfternoopia.
18:01:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:02:17 <boily> spent the weekend in Québec City. eating shrimp crackers. not enough caffeine in my body. Taneb just joined. and I can finally print! (apparently, an old and forgotten misconfiguration attempt screwed up avahi and cups.)
18:03:05 <Taneb> Are shrimp crackers like prawn crackers?
18:04:15 <^v> that time when you get a shiny new 1TB HDD and the estimated time remaining for all your crap to copy is 2 days
18:05:14 * ^v eats quintopia a potato
18:06:14 <^v> i expected a ReLcOmE
18:06:34 <^v> because, every other time ive been here i got one
18:06:41 <boily> Taneb: they were out of the usual stuff when I had a sudden urge to buy some, so I had to resign myself over shrimp crackers.
18:07:06 <boily> (they are of a generic French fries shape, and taste like shrimp, and are of the crunchy persuasion, so all is not lost.)
18:07:21 <HackEgo> ^v: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
18:07:32 <^v> that exists?
18:07:36 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:07:40 <boily> I'm as surprised as you.
18:07:44 <^v> i only thought there was relcome and WeLcOmE
18:07:46 <quintopia> ^v: but i never got one, so it's unfair for you to get so many
18:08:02 <^v> `UnRelCoMe quintopia
18:08:03 <boily> ^v: remember, this is the Land of the Chimæric Relcomes!
18:08:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: UnRelCoMe: not found
18:08:25 * boily ponders if he can mail a potato through to USPS...
18:08:54 <quintopia> boily: what's going down for christmas?
18:09:00 <^v> you can count on windows to fail at symbolic links
18:10:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | CaT
18:10:27 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ sys.stdout.write ((lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read()))
18:11:11 <boily> python is the most bestest PL evaaaaaaaaaar!
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18:11:44 <boily> quintopia: the flow of the Fleuve St-Laurent. I'm disappearing in a land far, far away, where the Family Resides and the Food is Plenty.
18:12:15 <quintopia> boily: to be so far from your parents i mean
18:13:04 <boily> I only live about 250 km away from where they live, and I spend the weekend there once about every 2~3 weeks.
18:13:52 <HackEgo> bash: ^.^: command not found
18:14:16 <quintopia> more than an hour away is usually sufficient
18:14:17 <boily> quintopia: I could have moved to Toronto. that would have been far.
18:14:19 <int-e> `run ln -s /bin/cat /bin/^.^
18:14:20 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `/bin/^.^': Read-only file system
18:14:27 <boily> (there, or Ottawa. the horror!)
18:14:32 <int-e> aww, but makes sense :)
18:14:52 <quintopia> boily: you can move here. i don't care. what do you do again?
18:15:25 <boily> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\ncat $@' >bin/^.^
18:15:43 <boily> quintopia: free software consultant :D
18:15:50 <boily> `run chmod 0755 bin/^.^
18:16:02 <boily> int-e: the sense, it was made.
18:16:14 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/^.^: No such file or directory
18:16:19 <boily> quintopia: no, for http://www.savoirfairelinux.com//
18:16:33 <int-e> boily: I see my mistake.
18:17:42 <quintopia> fizzie: shouldn't fungot have a .^ command?
18:17:42 <fungot> quintopia: it's an irc client
18:18:11 * boily backs away very, very slowly from the Sentient Fungot
18:18:52 <^v> http://i.imgur.com/3b4TIP6.png
18:19:01 * ^v claps for windows failing at symlinks
18:19:20 <quintopia> boily: how hard do you work in a given week
18:19:22 <boily> He hasn't answered to His Name. He has spotted me. I have to flee. even Canadia won't protect me anymore.
18:20:03 <boily> quintopia: 37.5 hours.
18:20:18 <quintopia> boily: that's how much time. how hard?
18:21:12 <int-e> how do you measure that? coffee pots per hour?
18:21:17 <boily> quintopia: eh... depends on the project. sometimes you have to sprint through urgent bugs and corrections when a Demonstration looms over, but usually it's pretty smooth.
18:22:08 <quintopia> int-e: we don't need no measures. we've got _subjectivity_!
18:22:12 <boily> int-e: I'm not drinking no coffee anymore here. the thing that prepares coffee is... uhm. well. the coffee it produces is...
18:22:55 <boily> int-e: I have my own tea stash. it's much better, and during lunch we usually stop at one of the nearby cafés to grab an espresso.
18:24:03 <boily> quintopia: frozen.
18:24:06 <metasepia> CYUL 021800Z 05006KT 7SM FEW018 OVC090 M00/M02 A2995 RMK SC2AC6 SLP143
18:25:37 <boily> and speaking of chicken, I have to do a pad thai, and some hot & sour soup, and 皮蛋瘦肉粥.
18:26:50 <boily> I think I may be a little bit food obsessed...
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18:45:42 <boily> mrhmouse: http://youtu.be/CeZlih4DDNg
18:49:35 <mrhmouse> boily: I can't view YouTube at work :( Well. I _can_, but I shouldn't.
18:52:28 <boily> mwah ah ah. be Tempted by the Video. abandon productivity!
18:55:51 <boily> fungot: what is lambdabot's @src?
18:55:51 <fungot> boily: i'd get this: fnord
18:56:20 <shachaf> lambdabot: what is fungot's @src?
18:56:20 <fungot> shachaf: s/ even/ not fnord
18:57:49 <fungot> shachaf: but... you've got terminal socket. fnord". haven't got time to night though. i don't
18:58:08 <shachaf> i've got terminal socket :'(
18:58:11 <mrhmouse> shachaf, fungot doesn't have time tonight. he doesn't.
18:58:11 <fungot> mrhmouse: did you write the first two, then the window handle will be released?) not cope with unicode.
18:58:13 <shachaf> fungot: how long do i have
18:58:13 <fungot> shachaf: i wonder if that was actually the one in my box. works like a charm :)
18:58:29 <shachaf> mrhmouse: since when is fungot a "he"
18:58:29 <fungot> shachaf: i feel like i need something to take their experience into account.
18:58:48 <mrhmouse> shachaf: I just alternate gender pronouns when referring to her
18:59:14 <mrhmouse> fungot is too friendly to be called "it".. I can't bring myself to do it
18:59:15 <fungot> mrhmouse: such as? i maintain my own proxy, and i was just about to say " an action producing something of this type
19:01:35 <boily> lambdabot is a her, I think. what is fungot's sexual identity?
19:01:35 <fungot> boily: since sparc assembly is so unreadable. it basically just reads /dev/ misc/ fnord my homemade porn fnord think its nice:).
19:02:08 <boily> fizzie: your bot is dirty. most verily dirty.
19:02:28 <fungot> shachaf: it's something like 4e) and fnord ( one less map)" at the start of the file
19:02:34 <fungot> shachaf: the idea of clean fnord semantics, and occasionally do the equivalent of trick or treating though. in the end
19:02:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:02:47 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
19:02:56 <fungot> shachaf: don't i know you from somewhere? but, i mean, a male, i can be one of those people are going to think you're a pedophile, and he's on a friggin' universe. and then there'll be a day shortly afterwards when we can simulate universe on our cell, because there'd have been no controversy.
19:03:09 <mrhmouse> fungot: do you like Tom Waits?
19:03:09 <fungot> mrhmouse: t-rex, i have big news the other!
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19:44:32 <Bike> does finding a longest path in a graph take about as long as finding the shortest one?
19:45:58 <Bike> oh. no. it's np-hard. oops.
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19:46:29 <Bike> oh, but the question i got was a DAG which puts the time down to linear, baller
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20:17:09 <boily> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_clicks aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
20:17:53 <boily> everything is fine here. I am not terrified by phonemes. I am sane.
20:18:15 <boily> (just entered several hundred lines of XML. my brain hurts more than my fingers, strangely.)
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20:18:49 <quintopia> i ask because i have more than i can record
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20:19:14 <quintopia> i'll describe them and let you take credit
20:19:45 <boily> anything that can take my mind off XML is good.
20:20:31 <quintopia> so this first idea is an xml-based language...
20:20:53 * boily oils and shines his mapole...
20:21:27 <boily> at least I have tea. tea is good.
20:21:41 <boily> (and an endless playlist of touhou tunes on youtube.)
20:24:25 <boily> I got the whole tlmc torrent since... uhm... 2007~8. proudly seeding ever since!
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20:26:20 <boily> and the French word of the day... «effeuilleuse», also known as “stripteaser”.
20:26:50 <boily> (their closing down the few remaining red light establishements in Montréal, and cleaning up the place. http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/immobilier/201312/02/01-4716773-un-immeuble-de-160-millions-au-coin-st-laurent-et-ste-catherine.php )
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20:28:33 <Taneb> How does the Axiom of Regularity deal with sets like {1,2}
20:29:15 <quintopia> that set only contains 1,2, not itself
20:29:45 <Taneb> quintopia, according to the Wikipedia page that is a result of Regularity, not the axiom itself
20:29:54 <Taneb> " every non-empty set A contains an element that is disjoint from A."
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20:30:48 <quintopia> Taneb: sure. the axiom of regularity is a rule for ruling out the existence of some sets, not for guaranteeing the existence of any set
20:31:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, ooh, that's cunning
20:31:16 <Taneb> Also that helps a lot
20:31:20 <Taneb> `thanks Phantom_Hoover
20:31:21 <HackEgo> Thanks, Phantom_Hoover. Thantom_Hoover.
20:31:45 <olsner> hmm, these touhou games have weird names
20:32:30 <Taneb> olsner, like "touhou" :P
20:32:58 <quintopia> boily: does that word literally translate to "defoliator"?
20:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> this is because people who like japanese things are somehow able to put up with ridiculously awkward translations
20:33:39 <quintopia> putting strippers in the same category as agent orange=win
20:34:02 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, in the same sense that in english we have paint strippers
20:34:42 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, cf. Problem Sleuth?
20:35:45 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: agent orange isn't really a paint stripper. the french version is more awesome.
20:35:53 <olsner> Taneb: no, it seems touhou is not the name of any game, but the collective name for loads of touhou games
20:35:58 <olsner> (afaik they're all essentially the same game though)
20:36:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=4&p=001183
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20:44:15 <Bike> to be fair, agent orange isn't orange, either.
20:45:34 <olsner> neither is mr orange, iirc
20:46:26 <quintopia> speaking of which i never got a very good answer for a symbol that reminds people of me
20:46:29 <boily> quintopia: it does :D
20:46:37 <boily> (re. the sexy efoliating.)
20:46:47 <quintopia> boily: what's a good noun to associate with me
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20:47:32 <boily> package, because I still remember the creativity and reluctance of the wrapping I received :D
20:47:52 <boily> (I mean, I had to forcefully apply my pocket knife onto the various layers of tape.)
20:48:02 <boily> I have a picture of the thing!
20:48:11 <boily> the picture, let me share you it.
20:48:16 <quintopia> boily: did you translate the back of the postcard? :D
20:48:31 <boily> not yet. I'll have it translated tonight.
20:49:05 <boily> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/2013-11-25%2017.47.53.jpg
20:50:11 <boily> I thing USPS retaped it. that's why I had some troubles with it. all the more satisfying to pry open!
20:50:25 <quintopia> but it shouldn't have been hard to unwrap. just cut enough tape to separate the lid from the box
20:53:30 <quintopia> boily: did my ziplocks stay inflated?
20:54:43 <quintopia> how about a stereotypical giftbox with a mustache for a bow
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20:57:40 <boily> quintopia: oh, that's what the ziplocs were for! I was quite puzzled.
20:58:23 <quintopia> boily: i take it that's a no. must have deflated at low pressure in the air
20:58:52 <quintopia> i was trying to keep things from sliding around and i had no bubble wrap. i didn't want the cookies to get crumby
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17:47:06 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:47:28 <boily> as the Gregor leaves for warmer sunsets, in come the Future of Botkind.
17:47:33 <mrhmouse> fizzie: then that message is stored in a massive list (in memory). I'm splitting on spaces ahead of time because I'm currently transitioning between repeating messages and munging them
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17:47:55 <int-e> what does glogbot do?
17:48:39 <boily> int-e: it is a glogging bot. it glogs.
17:49:17 * boily kicks ddg in the uncomedic untiming.
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17:50:48 <boily> probably something related to glögg, perhaps.
17:51:36 <mrhmouse> boily: are you using their keyless API?
17:52:28 <olsner> boily: probably not.. glögg is good though
17:53:12 <boily> mrhmouse: no key in my code.
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17:53:44 <mrhmouse> boily: that's probably why; I think they limit their results unless you're using the API that requires a key
17:54:12 <mrhmouse> boily: I use the same API for a different bot (on a different channel, on a different server..) to look up definitions
17:54:58 <boily> olsner: I saw a recipe for that the other day on /r/food. it seems quite a bit dangerous.
17:55:53 -!- Bike has joined.
17:55:54 <boily> mrhmouse: I have to refactor and polish my code for the Real Metasepia. I had the module scrutinized by the Prying Eyes of the people who know how to Haskell correctly here.
17:56:12 <boily> olsner: warm. sugar. lots of alcohol. almonds!
17:56:42 <olsner> and after you polish the code, you'll finnish it?
17:56:44 <mrhmouse> boily: I would learn how to Haskell correctly, but Haskell hates tabs and I hate spaces
17:58:21 <boily> mrhmouse: tabs are evil. embrace the way of the space!
18:01:20 <mrhmouse> that's also why I gave up on OCaml & F#.. unless I use the silly ;; I can't use tabs
18:02:16 <olsner> boily: fwiw it's usually drunk in very small cups and one batch will be shared with a lot of people
18:02:21 <elliott> if your sole reason for not learning a language is because it's maybe slightly awkward to indent the way you're used to then I think I'm even more sick of nerds than I was yesterday
18:02:33 <olsner> it's also approx. the same strength as plain wine
18:02:53 <Bike> elliott: do you need me to take you to the hospital.
18:02:57 <mrhmouse> elliott: that's not my sole reason. I don't have a pressing reason _to_ learn those outside of curiousity
18:04:20 <boily> olsner: oh. hmm... we are in December, and I'll be spending the holidays at my parents... and they know of my habit to make them try new liquids.
18:04:27 <mrhmouse> elliott: there are plenty of languages around these days to take my pick.. Those languages are interesting, but others were more comfortable to use.
18:04:29 <boily> mwah ah ah. MUAH AH AH AH AH AH AH!
18:04:41 <elliott> there is also non-layout syntax and the simple expedient of writing your code so that the interpretation of tab as spaces-to-mod-8 (or is it just 8-spaces? I forget) is never relevant -- which should be what you're doing anyway, since there's no point to use tabs if you're going to do indentation-width-dependent alignment
18:04:43 <mrhmouse> boily: please don't kill anybody
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18:06:17 <Bike> the more i get comfortable with verilog the more i hate it, it's amazing
18:06:24 <boily> mrhmouse: they already went through mate, turkish coffee, milk tea, chaï... I haven't got to kombucha yet.
18:08:00 <mrhmouse> elliott: I'm not up for inputting tabs as spaces and then magically erasing 8 spaces when I press backspace.
18:08:23 <mrhmouse> elliott: now, I could very easily replace tabs in my code with 8 spaces _before_ passing it to Haskell
18:08:23 <Bike> i'm too sleepy to make a funny face
18:08:35 <Bike> you deserve it though
18:08:42 <elliott> editors doing things when you press keys: ~magic~
18:08:42 <fizzie> Bike: How about... VeriLAB? (MATlog.)
18:08:54 <elliott> computers: a special kind of fire? magic.
18:09:07 <olsner> the most evil kind of magic that allows you to work with other people
18:09:22 <elliott> look I used to be a total tab zealot
18:09:36 <Bike> i'm really disappointed that 'tab zealot' is a concept.
18:09:44 <elliott> I realised life is meaningless but especially so if you give the slightest shit about any of this
18:09:49 <mrhmouse> I'm all for spaces iff I can get one feature: I like a tab width of 2
18:10:09 <shachaf> i used to be a tab zealot but now i prefer windows
18:10:11 * boily shoots fpgas at fizzie
18:10:24 <mrhmouse> it's just easier for me to read. that's it. well, that, and I know that my team mates _don't_ like a tab width of 2
18:10:26 <Bike> like, i mean, i expected more out of life. nobody told me, on exiting the womb, that i would add 'tab zealot' to my conceptual repertoire in a few years.
18:10:52 <mrhmouse> tabs can be displayed at different widths on different machines. this is the _only_ reason I prefer them.
18:11:01 <shachaf> mrhmouse....................
18:11:40 <Bike> i'm a thinking being. i can conceptualize so many things. and now 'tab zealot' is in there. that concept just drags down my entire ability to think and categorize observed entities, by mere association.
18:11:44 <shachaf> please see elliott's previous statement
18:12:23 <olsner> Bike: are you a space zealot?
18:12:48 <Bike> i'm a not-conceptualizing-zealotry-about-fucking-spaces-are-you-fucking-joking zealot
18:14:05 <Bike> see train zealotry i could get behind, that has some kind of import.
18:20:52 <mrhmouse> okie dokie then... elliott: when you say non-layout syntax, do you mean ML or Haskell? I remember seeing ML had one, but it's been a while since I've looked at Haskell..
18:21:21 <mrhmouse> if you mean Haskell, I'll have to give it another look-over
18:22:50 <Bike> @ask ais523 does verilog let you paramaterize bus width of inputs because wtf verilog
18:22:51 <Bike> it is @ask right
18:22:51 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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18:23:31 <Bike> @ask ais523 does vhdl let you paramaterize bus widths
18:24:04 <mrhmouse> Bike: you must have missed it due to connection issues, but lambdabot got your first @ask
18:24:43 <mrhmouse> elliott: nevermind, I've found what you meant about Haskell. The material I was reading before didn't mention the use of curly braces. Thanks :D
18:24:47 <Bike> @tell ais523 sorry, ignore the verilog ask
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18:40:46 <mrhmouse> Does anybody know how long lambdabot stores a @tell before discarding it?
18:46:26 <olsner> lambdabot knows, I hope
18:47:29 <boily> @ask lambdabot do you know?
18:47:42 <boily> fungot: do you know what the lambdabot says?
18:47:42 <fungot> boily: with that he struck the note in question. " do you observe?" ( such was the phrase with which the two fnord in the wood-- here's fnord shawl being blown away!'"
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18:49:25 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\"
18:50:01 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
18:50:04 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\"
18:50:36 <int-e> > map length . group $ fix show
18:50:45 <int-e> > map length . group $ fix show
18:50:50 <boily> ~eval map length . group $ fix show
18:50:54 <boily> ~eval map length . group $ fix show
18:52:06 <int-e> > take 10 . map length . group $ fix show
18:52:30 <olsner> @help yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
18:52:36 <int-e> it *is* running out of time, it'll never be able to produce the first 1024 characters of that list.
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18:52:52 <boily> what the fungot is an yhjul and all that sort of thing...
18:52:52 <fungot> boily: and minnie wound up the fnord, and was still. the professor bowed, but he didn't smile this time.
18:53:31 <boily> @help yhjulpouletpouletpoulet
18:53:31 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
18:53:37 <olsner> yhjul is just a small prefix of yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
18:53:37 <boily> @yhjulpouletpouletpoulet
18:53:49 <olsner> it was as far as I could remember
18:54:14 <boily> you mean there is sense under that linenoise?
18:54:40 <int-e> there may be an inside joke in there
18:55:06 <int-e> (lambdabot used to generate random function names, for example; yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw may have been one of those)
18:55:07 <olsner> according to what I heard it's just the random name that v was renamed to
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19:01:27 <olsner> fungot yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw fnord
19:01:27 <fungot> olsner: " the house, to meet once more after so many years, you see. no repetition!"
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19:02:29 <mrhmouse> did fungot just use balanced quotation marks?
19:02:29 <fungot> mrhmouse: " a conspiracy! it's so confusing to have some of them wholesome, and some bad-tempered ones have green eyes, and they had nothing more to say
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19:05:17 <olsner> probably a 50% chance it was unbalanced before and simply stayed unbalanced after that
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19:35:45 <ruddy> FireFly ♪ hey FireFly ♪
19:37:00 <ruddy> bonjour boily ♪ hey boily
19:38:47 <mrhmouse> ruddy, you're quite musical this evening...
19:38:48 <ruddy> quite possibly car quite not quite true not quite mrhmouse mrhmouse, mrhmouse
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19:39:45 <ion> A friend’s dog is a cat: https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1466131_10202269595998086_1354169662_n.jpg
19:40:09 <Taneb> ion, iirc terriers were originally bred as ratting dogs
19:42:55 <boily> topologically speaking, dogs and cats are the same animals.
19:44:02 <ion> `addquote <boily> topologically speaking, dogs and cats are the same animals.
19:44:06 <HackEgo> 1140) <boily> topologically speaking, dogs and cats are the same animals.
19:46:00 <boily> ion: the quote, it is PDFed.
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20:02:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: elly: not found
20:08:16 <quintopia> is there a name for the class of languages which are capable of performing only thos computations which halt?
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20:12:42 <quintopia> is there a category on the wiki for total languages
20:13:12 <Bike> i doubt there are any
20:14:12 <Bike> since you can't really describe /all/ total functions without saying "total functions" basically
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20:17:13 <Bike> we're talking about all total functions, not subsets of them
20:17:20 <Bike> subsets of that*
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20:18:22 <tromp__> you mean all computable total functions
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21:41:27 <kmc> grr, how to examine a location like %fs:0x70 in GDB
21:43:23 <kmc> do i have to make the program call arch_prctl(ARCH_GET_FS, &somewhere)
21:43:32 <kmc> what a tremendous pain in the ass
21:43:47 <Fiora> isn't fs listed in the registers list?
21:45:05 <kmc> yeah but the value there is a segment selector
21:45:24 <Taneb> Fiora, help I have pre-ordered the Namco dating sim Hussie is making
21:45:33 <Fiora> Taneb: oh gosh, it's /buyable/ now?
21:45:35 <kmc> to get the base address of that segment you'd need to look at the LDT/GDT and/or the 64-bit FS base MSR (which is what arch_prctl accesses)
21:45:41 <Fiora> Taneb: does it have Tales characters yet
21:45:49 <Bike> Taneb: are you going to date the spaceship
21:45:52 <Taneb> Fiora, I think it'll be F2P with purchasable characters
21:45:57 <olsner> is the FS base MSR updated when loading fs from a descriptor?
21:46:01 <Bike> Taneb: good man
21:46:08 <Fiora> kmc: rdfsbase instruction? (it's kinda new)
21:46:11 <kmc> olsner: I'm not sure
21:46:27 <kmc> Fiora: woah, did not know about that one
21:46:37 <Fiora> Taneb: yeah, I'm just like, I remember new characters being announced and stuff and most being like "pac man" or something
21:46:42 <Fiora> but then like. terezi shows up or something ???
21:46:46 <Taneb> Fiora, no Tales characters, no Pac Man either
21:46:47 <Fiora> and it's namco so they might have tales characters
21:47:02 <olsner> rdfsbase is probably only available in supervisor mode and in unreleased processors
21:47:10 <Fiora> oh, it's privileged only?
21:47:14 <Taneb> I think there are either going to be more characters announced or secret characters
21:47:17 <boily> Taneb, Fiora: as seemingly you are dating sim players, and that I'm kinda intrigued by the genre, what would be a good starting point? (something that can preferably run on linux and/or android without too much hassle.)
21:47:21 <olsner> no idea, but it might be
21:47:28 <Taneb> boily, I'm not a dating sim player
21:47:55 <boily> Taneb: re. “I have pre-ordered the Namco dating sim”, what are you then?
21:48:05 <Fiora> boily: I guess I'd start by distinguishing "dating sim" (e.g. maybe magical diary, tokimeki memorial?) from "visual novel" (e.g. ever17)?
21:48:08 <Taneb> This will be my first foree (however you spell that) into the genre
21:48:12 <olsner> pre-orderer but not player then?
21:48:13 <Fiora> they're often-confused
21:48:22 <Bike> or taneb's just getting it because of the huss.
21:48:25 <boily> Fiora: good point.
21:48:29 <shachaf> why do people do this :'( http://kuznero.com/2013/12/03/what-is-a-monad/
21:48:45 <Fiora> for visual novels you probably want to pick between bishoujo games or otome games (or non-romance games, there's some of those too)
21:48:50 <Bike> wow look at all those smiley faces.
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21:48:57 <boily> I'll be also exploring the Offered Games for my Ouya. I hope there's at least one I like :)
21:49:07 <Bike> shachaf: have you considered writing a parody blog entry about "what is a quadrilateral" or something in the same tone
21:49:20 <shachaf> Bike: no but imo you should do it
21:49:53 <boily> Fiora: I ain't romancing no otome.
21:50:02 <Bike> too bad it would be funny to an estimated zero percent of the population
21:50:12 <kmc> shachaf: ;_;
21:50:18 <Bike> boily hates maidens with a burning passion
21:50:57 <olsner> it has a nice description of curring [sic] too
21:51:09 <kmc> is it curring complete
21:51:33 <Fiora> I guess for dating sims I liked magical diary and RE:Alistair++
21:51:58 <Fiora> I played the fan translation (I think?) of tokimeki memorial girls' side but it felt kind of grindy and I didn't quite get the mechanics that well
21:52:00 <boily> Bike: only if there's a kinship between the protagonist and the maiden in question.
21:52:07 <Fiora> I guess persona counts as a dating sim in a terribly loose way??
21:52:09 <olsner> kmc: something something curring-thurth
21:52:22 <olsner> curring-thurth cheeses?
21:52:59 <boily> Fiora: well, people are now playing roguelikelikes, so maybe persona is a dating sim sim?
21:53:14 <Fiora> "roguelikelike" is the best word
21:53:37 <myname> what the hell is a roguelikelike?
21:53:41 <Taneb> @karma RE:Alistair
21:53:52 <Fiora> I've heard it referred to for things like FTL?
21:53:52 <boily> myname: something that has procedural generation and permadeath.
21:53:52 <myname> or, what is a roguelikelike like?
21:54:00 <Fiora> which are like, like a roguelike, but don't have turn based ness and stuff
21:54:23 <Fiora> for non-romance-focused visual novels I'd recommend maybe 999, virtue's last reward, ever17, analogue/hate plus, umineko, maybeish?
21:54:25 <boily> myname: bindings of isaac, FTL, stuff like that. minecraft in hardcore mode, too.
21:54:32 <Fiora> oh, and remember11 I guess
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21:54:50 <Bike_> i was going to make a joke about grinding on a date but i was distracted by the question of how the hell a dating sim involves leveling
21:54:53 <boily> Fiora: sadly, I have to leave and disappear in the Cold World. I'll be browsing the logs tomorrow morning.
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21:55:08 <Fiora> (there are very few non-romance focused visual novels <.< and even fewer translated)
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21:55:16 <myname> boily: i don't quite get it, but i think i may be okay with it
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22:39:56 <Bike> do i have to put >/dev/null before a & or what
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22:45:30 <oerjan> <ruddy> i've man, they so should call bmp the "prime material interesting interesting interesting interesting <-- i'm with ruddy
22:45:33 <ruddy> i've man, they so should call bmp man, they so should call bmp the interesting
22:46:22 <mrhmouse> Preeeetty sure ruddy is drunk.
22:47:12 <ruddy> Taneb ♪ hey Taneb ♪
22:47:12 <oerjan> mrhmouse: hm ruddy's response to someone quoting them is a little predictable
22:47:14 <ruddy> who's i would want explicit caching and pipelining so the internet fight or fight response hm
22:47:40 <oerjan> internet fight or fight response, sounds about right
22:47:56 <mrhmouse> oerjan: only because its bank of messages isn't very large right now
22:48:13 <mrhmouse> ruddy is also musical lately.. I wonder who taught it that
22:48:16 <ruddy> probably i wonder i wonder if that ... i wonder if mrhmouse liked it
22:48:24 <mrhmouse> I did like it, ruddy. Thank you.
22:48:26 <ruddy> thank you? i like you. (and people like you. thank you.) we believe you. thank you, mrhmouse
22:49:02 <oerjan> mrhmouse: i think boily is the musical one around here.
22:50:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13929
22:50:37 <mrhmouse> Taneb: to answer your question - ruddy is a chatterbot
22:50:39 <ruddy> ah, here's the chatterbot mathematical question tough question good question that does not answer my question
22:52:24 <FreeFull> What is the chatterbot equivalent of alcohol?
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22:54:04 <mrhmouse> I'm not sure. ruddy: what is the chatterbot equivalent of alcohol?
22:54:07 <ruddy> a drunk ah, here's the chatterbot now. looks like a shitty chatterbot er, mrhmouse: lol, yeah sure.
22:54:14 <Bike> a chat with parry
22:54:27 <mrhmouse> Bike: I thought Parry was actually decent?
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22:55:13 <Taneb> mrhmouse, what language is ruddy written in?
22:55:14 <ruddy> also, won't people be offended if i put religious texts in? ruddy, you made Taneb, right? ruddy, Taneb: you're both cute imo Taneb, meat ruddy. ruddy, this is Taneb. some people here tried matchmaking Taneb and ruddy, with no avail.
22:56:22 <mrhmouse> It was just a side project that I decided to bring into the channel one day.. it's mostly hacked together
22:59:27 <oerjan> ruddy: hey mezzacotta's blathering includes the book of mormon...
22:59:29 <ruddy> hey ... keyboard to that mobile device. hey people hey oerjan hey oerjan hey there oerjan
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22:59:50 <Taneb> mrhmouse, what texts is is trained on?
22:59:53 <oerjan> ruddy: hej hej hemskt mycket hej
23:00:47 <mrhmouse> oerjan: if it can't find a suitable response, it stays silent.
23:00:48 <oerjan> mrhmouse: i think ruddy is a bit weak on swedish
23:00:51 <ruddy> is occasionally identity, and weak tables. i'm not that is a small city by swedish measurements. fun fact: "fyllo" is swedish slang for "drunk" hm doesn't swedish have a word like "kuldegrader"
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23:04:07 <oerjan> <mrhmouse> boily: I would learn how to Haskell correctly, but Haskell hates tabs and I hate spaces <-- you _can_ use tabs in haskell, it's just not recommended
23:04:43 <oerjan> because it can mess up if editors aren't set to the official "indents to next multiple of 8 column" interpretation
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23:06:07 <oerjan> (you _can_ use it even without that, but then you need to be sure only to start blocks at the beginning of lines)
23:07:01 <oerjan> you can also go the zzo38 way and use explicit braces.
23:07:20 <mrhmouse> oerjan: if I decide to revisit Haskell, I'll be using explicit braces
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23:07:48 <oerjan> mrhmouse: YOU'LL STILL BE A WEIRDO THOUGH
23:08:09 <mrhmouse> I'm okay with that :P also I don't know this hth thing :I
23:08:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:08:20 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
23:08:32 <oerjan> i hope that cleared it up
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23:10:20 <zzo38> There are a few people who use explicit braces in Haskell, I am not the only one and neither are you. It isn't the most common way but it is OK; it is not a problem to use explicit braces. However, I do have one recommendation, which is to not use explicit and implicit format in the same file.
23:11:07 <mrhmouse> zzo38: I would like to think that's common sense
23:11:48 <mrhmouse> but thank you for the heads up. anything to look out for with the explicit-braces approach?
23:12:50 <oerjan> i think it has fewer gotchas than the implicit one, for sure
23:12:56 <zzo38> mrhmouse: I expect the way of things working is more obvious when explicit-braces are used.
23:13:35 <mrhmouse> zzo38: I should hope so. A big turn-off from Haskell initially was that I got very difficult to debug error messages when I tried coding using tabs and layout style
23:14:04 <oerjan> zzo38: one exception: it _might_ occasionally be nice to use explicit ; even if you don't use explicit {}. well, maybe.
23:14:28 <oerjan> since you can then fit more things on one line.
23:15:06 <zzo38> mrhmouse: Well, one more thing: If you are using explicit-braces, you also need the explicit "module" declaration (which is a good idea anyways, though)
23:15:14 <mrhmouse> I gotta run.. dinner plans. @tell me any other gotchas if you think of them
23:15:22 <mrhmouse> don't teach ruddy terrible things
23:15:23 <ruddy> heading out. don't paris is terrible hehhhhh, teach just described parameters in verilog modules as "like c #defines" i think he meant he wanted me to teach him watching starcraft don't worry, they're all terrible
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23:18:23 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't think anything actually _breaks_ if you forget the explicit module declaration, does it? oh hm i guess if you put things on the beginning of the line that aren't just after a ;
23:18:46 <oerjan> but would you do that assuming you are still indenting things normally
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23:32:52 <oerjan> hm these apples are marked with the german place name südtirol, which is in italy.
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23:57:18 <zzo38> oerjan: It has the possibility to break if you omit the module declaration, so I always include it anyways just in case (and because having a module declaration is a good idea in general, too)
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00:09:59 <Bike> i wonder if i can convince the prof that seeing what an hdl system synthesizes to on the fpga would be educational
00:10:47 <zzo38> I think it would be helpful to see such things
00:11:02 <Bike> Fiora: i was going to say 'verilog program' but that's not really a thing
00:11:32 <Bike> i just feel like complaining since xilinx gives me a warning that so and so is incompatible with my board but doesn't tell me what exactly is incompatible
00:15:30 <Bike> but hey, i turned a monitor red. i am a god.
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00:20:51 <Bike> vga is surprisingly simple to understand even though i'm still terrible at it.
00:21:24 <Bike> there's something amusing about running a fancy-ass flatscreen monitor with a specification designed for cathode ray guns
00:21:47 <Bike> (i could call them tubes, but guns are cooler)
00:22:23 <zzo38> I am also using a flatscreen monitor with VGA
00:23:07 <zzo38> The VGA pinout is listed in the book that comes with the monitor, even.
00:23:19 <shachaf> i can turn Bike's monitor red
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00:23:51 <Bike> this project only uses a few of the color pins. amazing three-bit color depth.
00:24:37 <zzo38> This lists "Hot Plug Detect", "SDA", and "SCL" which are things I don't know.
00:25:07 <Bike> Now I have drawn a crosshair.
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00:32:33 <zzo38> However, VGA is analog video rather than digital, and has a display data channel.
00:36:25 <kmc> Bike: make an o-scope
00:36:37 <Bike> a digital oscilloscope?
00:38:32 <kmc> presumably
00:40:05 <Bike> i guess i'd need a dac
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00:40:44 <Bike> zzo38: actually the specs mention the vga controller on my board works by taking three bits and putting them through some resistor circuits to get the analog value, which is kinda neat
00:41:24 <zzo38> Bike: Yes you can make the converter like that
00:42:14 <zzo38> I have invented Digi-RGB to avoid the complexity and other problems of DisplayPort and so on; Digi-RGB is purely digital and includes red, green, blue, clock, and sync signals. It has video-only; no other signals such as data, configuration, audio, HDCP, hot plug detect, etc.
00:42:33 <Bike> how many things have you invented
00:44:01 <zzo38> I have not fully written out the connectors/electrical specifications for Digi-RGB (and no computer supports it), but I may do so; someone said he can help with this so I can do it at such a time. Possibly having the electricals and speeds of FireWire.
00:45:40 <zzo38> In case you do need the other features, I have also invented Digi-RGB-Plus, which includes two channels of analog audio, and one data pin going in the opposite direction from the other signals, in 1200,8,N,1 format. The specification explicitly says that either or both device may completely ignore the data and it is still required to work, so it is compatible with Digi-RGB.
00:47:00 <zzo38> I don't know if you think this is a good idea or not, and any other details you have opinions about.
00:47:32 <Bike> you're an incredible person, zzo.
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00:51:20 <zzo38> Although there are no limits to resolution and clock rate, and standard should be specified for fallback purposes to use with maximum compatibility. The resolution and clock rate of CGA may be used as this fallback specification.
00:51:32 <zzo38> Do you know if DOSBox can emulate composite video mode?
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01:17:01 <kmc> https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/Fahrplan/events/5394.html hot damn
01:17:10 <kmc> "Using the recent BREACH exploit as an example, I will present how to represent attacks and security notions within the Type Theory of Agda."
01:17:25 <Bike> i have moved on to animating a moving square. worship me
01:19:06 <shachaf> is it going to be recorded or whatever it is they do
01:22:51 <kmc> i think so
01:22:57 <kmc> Bike: is this building to a particular project?
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01:23:25 <Bike> nah, it's all in the homework
01:23:36 <Bike> i think i could make pong though
01:23:54 <Bike> though i have no idea how the angle computation works.
01:24:00 <oerjan> Bike: does that mean you can soon explain what a quadrilateral is?
01:24:10 <kmc> for bounces?
01:24:26 <kmc> everything you can bounce off in pong is axis-aligned right?
01:24:29 <Bike> did the original pong just have all perpendicular bounces? i've only played it once
01:24:31 <kmc> so you just flip the sign on one of the velocities
01:24:38 <kmc> does that work? hm
01:24:53 <Bike> i'm used to modern breakouty games where the angle changes based on the paddle speed
01:25:13 <kmc> imo implement plasma pong
01:25:28 <oerjan> Bike: huh, like proper galilean transformation?
01:25:49 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHsYjWm8XSI yeah these aren't perpendicular
01:26:10 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
01:26:13 <Bike> oerjan: given this is an atari it's probably not proper anything...
01:26:38 <Bike> but you can see them demonstrate that the reflecting angle varies based on paddle velocity
01:26:43 <oerjan> Bike: i mean if the angle changes based on speed
01:27:08 <Bike> i mean that it might get near that but it will basically be a hack.
01:27:47 <oerjan> ideally the ball speed should also change
01:27:50 <Bike> of course it varies, though, how'd i forget. when you play you can try to get really steep angles so that the other player can't predict as well
01:27:59 <Bike> I think the ball speed also changes.
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01:28:09 <oerjan> although only horizontally, hm
01:28:23 <Bike> maybe i should just make an atari.
01:29:55 <Bike> but basically in doing the basic vga stuff i have an hpos and a vpos, and a bonus 60 Hz clock, so i can probably do gamey things reasonably easily.
01:30:09 <Bike> kmc: this game is weird
01:30:33 <Bike> it looks like the paddles can emit gas to slow the ball? and you can catch it and burst it out
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01:31:11 <kmc> maybe you need a 59.94Hz clock instead
01:31:37 <kmc> guess not for VGA tho
01:31:47 <Bike> i don't get it.
01:32:18 <Bike> and actually the frequency will be a bit different i suppose...
01:32:28 <kmc> NTSC-US is 29.97 fps
01:32:29 <Bike> > 100000000 / (800 * 525)
01:32:33 <kmc> you had me thinking about TVs
01:32:36 <Bike> well that's probably wrong
01:32:44 <Bike> kmc: i have no idea how tvs work ;_;
01:33:01 <shachaf> Bike: i have no idea how tvs work either
01:33:09 <shachaf> as a matter of fact, i don't even own one
01:33:19 <Bike> well neither do i, but still.
01:33:27 <Bike> i only have even heard of ntsc and pal from game emulation people.
01:35:03 <Bike> also, the last part of my assignment is to make a rotating crosshair. i don't think i'm supposed to use trig...i guess i could have each row 'moving' at a different rate or something
01:35:56 <oerjan> hm wouldn't the proper reflection algorithm just be: v = vp-(v-vp) or v = 2*vp - v
01:36:17 <kmc> why no trig
01:36:20 <oerjan> so you just do the usual thing, then add twice the paddle velocity
01:36:45 <Bike> kmc: no trig that would involve me writing cosine circuits, anyway
01:36:59 <kmc> maybe they want you to use a lookup table
01:37:13 <kmc> which is basically the same as hardcoding a set of points around a circle
01:37:21 <oerjan> that's obviously wrong
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01:38:01 <Bike> i'd still have to radial to cartesian conversion, wouldn'ti
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01:41:41 <oerjan> hm i think i've just convinced myself that the proper galilean transformation is to _not_ let the reflection depend on the speed of the paddle >:)
01:42:29 <Bike> well any speed from the paddle would have to be imparted through friction, right?
01:42:37 <kmc> or MAGNETS
01:42:55 <oerjan> anyway not by a totally elastic collision.
01:44:44 <kmc> magnets tho
01:45:25 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDQOvzFetxs
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01:50:24 <zzo38> Implement the RGB Famicom PPU with the VGA compatible way. (The Famicom RGB PPU is analog too)
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02:18:47 <oerjan> in a general sense yes
02:19:04 <quintopia> oerjan: billiard breakout is the most fun, where you can put some english on it with the paddle and get curved trajectories
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02:20:30 <Bike> now that i'm on an analog crusade, next i should figure out how to repair earbuds
02:22:01 <kmc> headphones tend to have tiny wires that are awful to solder
02:23:16 <Bike> zzo38: someone a few years ago implemented enough of a NES to play games, i hear
02:23:20 <Bike> in my class, i mean
02:23:45 <Bike> quintopia: i've never seen that, can you give me an example in mindless internet game form
02:27:59 <Bike> i don'tthink i really get the concept
02:28:47 <Bike> especially given that i've never played billiards.
02:30:17 <quintopia> the concept is that the ball behaves not like a disk with a trajectory, but like an actual 3d ball rotating around an axis
02:30:38 <quintopia> and the paddle can impart torques around an axis perpendicular to the plane of motion
02:30:51 <quintopia> that's all you need to make it possible
02:31:06 <quintopia> correctly implement the physics and everything else handles itself
02:31:18 <Bike> i'd like to remind you that i am as far as "square moving at constant velocity"
02:32:36 <quintopia> it's never too late to learn to fizzix
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02:36:23 <quintopia> i want to go to a physics class taught by fizzie
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02:38:57 <oerjan> i fear this idea will fizzle out.
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02:49:47 <kmc> fungot: do you know any fizzix
02:49:47 <fungot> kmc: " if he's always as sleepy as that," i echoed. " the baron's carriage has come round!" she groaned. " go away, dears!" he exclaimed, holding up one finger. ' i'm not a fnord i don't suppose bruno likes them, either!"
02:50:58 <Bike> hm, my fpga board apparently doesn't have a serial port
02:51:35 <oerjan> "OK, in the first significant use of comment voting, the readers have voted overwhelmingly, by 41 – 13, that they want the comment voting to disappear. So disappear it has!"
02:51:45 <oerjan> (from aaronson's blog)
02:52:02 <Bike> oh, you use a... virtual serial over usb
02:52:06 <Bike> that seems kind of ridiculous.
02:53:00 <kmc> lots of things have those
02:53:08 <shachaf> Hmm, I think various universal property definitions become much more obvious (in the context of sets) if you restrict "for any object" to mean "for the terminal object" (at least limits etc., or maybe right adjoints)
02:53:10 <kmc> that's also how you program arduinos
02:53:42 <kmc> the older ones had USB-to-UART chips but the newer ones just have a second AVR dedicated to this purpose ;P
02:53:49 <Bike> the former's what i got :V
02:53:58 <Bike> (what's AVR again)
02:54:00 <shachaf> For example, to define exponentials you might say "an element of B^A should probably correspond to an arrow from A to B, so Hom(A, B) ~ Hom(1, B^A)"
02:55:07 <Bike> "The idle, no data state is high-voltage, or powered. This is a historic legacy from telegraphy, in which the line is held high to show that the line and transmitter are not damaged." what a beautiful world
02:55:51 <shachaf> Or for products you might say "A product of A and B is an object AxB with two arrows fst/snd to A/B, such that for any a : 1 -> A and b : 1 -> B, there's an (a,b) : 1 -> AxB such that fst . (a,b) = a and snd . (a,b) = b"
02:56:07 <shachaf> And then just s/1/E/ for an arbitrary object E
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02:58:45 <shachaf> Which is just a fancy arrowy way of talking about global elements, which you then generalize to a generalized element.
03:00:42 <Bike> kmc: also does this mean there's good software for using a usb port on my computer as a serial port out.
03:01:12 <Bike> hm, in which case i'd be doing serial to usb to serial. again, life is beautiful
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03:15:34 <quintopia> oerjan: is comment voting where you post two comments with alternate viewpoints, and readers upvote one or the other comment?
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03:23:12 <oerjan> quintopia: from what i remember from my previous visit, it was just an upvote/downvote system like reddit and the like
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03:23:35 <oerjan> (also the css was ugly as hell, which i think i mentioned back then)
03:24:26 <kmc> saw this today http://i.imgur.com/ojwJZ2H.jpg
03:24:38 <kmc> looks like a tree grew around this power line and then they cut off the part above and below the line
03:33:33 <kmc> every time i share a jpg online i worry that my phone has embedded in the EXIF information about my GPS location and bank account and number of sex partners
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03:34:40 <zzo38> Are there foot-pedals that can attach to a computer like a keyboard and will function as media control keys?
03:34:51 <kmc> you can buy USB foot pedals on ebay
03:35:14 <kmc> also the Kinesis Advantage has a foot pedal accessory, and you can bind them to any key on the keyboard
03:35:22 <kmc> (although I don't remember if it has media keys in the first place)
03:35:35 <kmc> Bike: AVR is a line of popular 8-bit microcontrollers from Atmel
03:35:37 <Bike> now i want my computer desk to have - to need - a carburator
03:36:03 <kmc> (well there's also AVR32 but it's a completely different thing)
03:37:08 <zzo38> kmc: I am looking for the foot-pedals themself; I already have a keyboard.
03:37:34 <Bike> last time i went by a music shop (god was that a while ago) most of the pedals were programmable by usb
03:37:41 <Bike> clearly you need to get a whammy bar for input
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03:56:09 <kmc> the Guitar Hero for Xbox controller has a whammy bar and is USB
03:59:11 <quintopia> zzo38: what are you going to use your pedals for?
03:59:51 <zzo38> quintopia: To play, stop, and rewind an audio file, clearly.
04:00:06 <zzo38> So that it can be done even when working on something else too.
04:00:24 <quintopia> zzo38: oh right i should have known. carry on.
04:01:40 <zzo38> Does anyone else think it would be useful like this too?
04:02:22 <kmc> i think there are analog tape recorders with pedals
04:02:25 <kmc> you could use one
04:02:51 <zzo38> I do have a tape recorder but it doesn't have pedals and isn't usable with the computer.
04:05:49 <zzo38> (Of course it would be helpful to allow the same pedals to be used with a tape or with computer, selectable by a switch)
04:08:21 <Sgeo> "In terms of scalability, there is a clear winner throughout our experiments."
04:08:30 <Sgeo> I misread that as "in our thought experiments"
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04:14:02 <oerjan> for you bfjousters http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1558#comment-89317
04:15:22 <oerjan> @tell elliott http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1558#comment-89317
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05:03:24 <quintopia> oerjan: ah. when eli announced he was giving an entirely technical talk around now, i had wondered what it would be about. seems pretty interesting, though i know nothing about modal logic
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05:38:38 <Sgeo> "In Haskell, expressions are not evaluated until their results are actually needed. This is a simple decision with far-reaching consequences, which we will explore throughout the semester. Some of the consequences include:"
05:38:43 <Sgeo> "It is easy to define a new control structure just by defining a function.
05:38:58 <kmc> what's wrong with that statement
05:39:39 <Sgeo> Definining one's own control structures (well, imperative ones) has little to do with laziness in Haskell
05:39:54 <Sgeo> And more to do with the monadic view of IO
05:40:09 <kmc> yes, but not all control structures are imperative ones
05:40:18 <shachaf> if is a p. good control structure
05:40:29 <Bike> conditionals are p.erfectly good control structures
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05:44:22 <Bike> also in a less direct sense, couldn't you say laziness is important in that it means there are no "sequencing" semantics - the concept of "doing things" is out - so you have to do things like IO, functional relations, instead?
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05:45:20 <kmc> well that's the motivation for monadic IO yeah
05:45:42 <shachaf> You could do IO the way Haskell does it in a strict language just as well.
05:45:55 <Bike> sure, i just mean i can see it being motivating
05:45:57 <kmc> right, but there's less reason to
05:46:09 <kmc> at least until you've used Haskell and see how great it is
05:46:09 <Sgeo> That's a cultural effect, I would think, which is significant, but technically, not necessary. Similar to how I prefer API design in statically-typed languages even though dynamically-typed languages are usually theoretically capable of similar decisions, they often make ones I don't like
05:46:10 <shachaf> Purity is valuable on its own.
05:46:15 <kmc> it's a /historical/ motivation
05:46:17 <shachaf> In practice laziness was a motivation, I suppose.
05:46:30 <shachaf> SPJ says so, so it's hard to argue with it.
05:46:38 <Bike> here's where i go a long tangent about lakatos
05:51:52 <Bike> in pedagogy it's often helpful to develop things in a historical, though "rationalized", fashion. some traditions in math tend to depict things as axioms and definitions presented without real motivation, which are then extended through to the results. so to speak, in this fashion we would start by defining laziness without mentioning any consequences and go through to things like IO. the interesting thing here of course is that history did
05:51:52 <Bike> or something like that, anyway.
05:55:14 <shachaf> I like motivation but I don't think the way people happened to figure things out historically is necessarily the best way to teach them.
05:56:27 <Bike> and the 'rationalized' is supposed to allude to, like, not having to go through heat equations to understand fourier series :p
05:57:11 <shachaf> Yes. I don't even know if it often is. But I probably don't have enough examples one way or the other.
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05:57:49 <zzo38> The IO monad in Haskell can be used with a category of pure functions, regardless of lazy evaluation or the programming language or anything else. It is because it is category of pure functions, that such a monad is made up.
05:58:17 <Bike> zzo, meanwhile, is fully on the axiomatic side
05:59:42 <shachaf> I think "reasonable, rather than merely logical, steps" is almost always a good idea.
06:00:09 <Bike> what great words we have.
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06:42:41 <Sgeo> Oh I forgot to erfdate
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06:51:00 <Bike> not in this house young man
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08:11:34 <Bike> i'm ten pages in to an ethernet-phy manual and i'm pretty sure the internet is impossible
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08:14:16 <kmc> apparently urxvt has a literal "print screen" key shortcut and i keep hitting it by accident
08:14:28 <kmc> so i have all these printouts of #esoteric in my livin' room
08:14:40 <kmc> reason #9999 to disable cups by default
08:15:43 <Bike> dude i literally did that
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08:16:18 <Bike> i have a physical printout of MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN/ and shachaf wondering about generalizations of matrices
08:16:54 <shachaf> I shouldn't talk in logged channels. Especially not in publicly logged channels.
08:17:13 <Bike> it's not from logs, it's from urxvt
08:17:55 <kmc> hi lifthrasiir
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08:19:48 <fizzie> fungot: Is your code v. p.?
08:19:48 <fungot> fizzie: ' so young a child."
08:22:22 <shachaf> fungot: what do you stand for
08:22:22 <fungot> shachaf: then, having wholly fnord his views, and fnord my very soul with the tender music of the song, it ran fnord to get along to look for it, there's no chance of a night's rest here, i'm sure you'll forgive me: for i really couldn't bring myself to say ' draws well,' is to shrug your shoulders. ' draws well,' the king replied. ' further on,' the knight suddenly began in a loud voice, waving his right arm as he spoke) " the
08:23:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice* c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
08:23:17 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
08:23:22 <fungot> shachaf: that could simplify quite a few
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08:24:41 <kmc> year of the fungot
08:24:42 <fungot> kmc: when i properly javadoc my code, and a negative way of fleeing from real problems.
08:25:19 <Bike> an actor who played luigi in the movie or such died this year
08:25:24 <Bike> horrible irony
08:26:04 <kmc> i don't understand why it's year of luigi and i don't know why i'm hearing about it only in december
08:26:40 <Bike> because you haven't been paying atttention that's why
08:27:09 <fungot> shachaf: ( define-syntax letn working. but now it infinitely loops
08:29:00 <kmc> shachaf: http://sweetjs.org/ has scheme-style (or rust-style?) macros for javascript
08:29:04 <kmc> it's pretty cool
08:30:41 <shachaf> remember that javascript->javascript compiler edwardk was writing
08:33:14 <Bike> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/12/flying-hacker-contraption-hunts-other-drones-turns-them-into-zombies/ anyone remember samy
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08:49:15 <shachaf> kmc: did you hear about the thing where java substring() switched to copying strings
08:50:01 <shachaf> i guess so that big strings can be gced
08:50:14 <Bike> that as an exciting to consider memory leak.
08:50:32 <kmc> i wonder if a fancy gc can do that on the fly
08:50:50 <shachaf> i have wondered about that in the past
08:51:00 <kmc> there is a lot of research on gc with interior pointers, I'm sure
08:58:49 <shachaf> ion: make yourself useful, learn about categories
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09:08:37 <shachaf> ion: You should figure out whether that thing about limits and the terminal object is true.
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09:10:08 <ion> It’s false.
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09:11:31 <shachaf> You should find a counterexample.
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09:13:41 <fizzie> Huh. Everything broke.
09:13:58 <olsner> what did you think would happen?
09:14:42 <fizzie> The wlan is gone, my workstation does not let me log in, the university shell servers do not answer from the outside either.
09:15:17 <fizzie> And the website redirects to a "wwwdown" host that has front page news from April.
09:16:01 <fizzie> (Non-work 3G and interwebs at home still works.)
09:16:19 <ion> Non-work 3G sounds like it shouldn’t work.
09:17:19 <fizzie> Looks like it's a site for a scheduled network break at that time.
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09:19:22 <fizzie> (This is http://aalto.fi/ I'm talking about. If it's not fixed already.)
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09:25:12 <fizzie> We just switched these workstations to university accounts the other week, otherwise I might even have a chance of logging in.
09:25:43 <olsner> can't you switch them back to local accounts?
09:27:03 <fizzie> By "we" I meant the IT administrative people of the department. We're not authorized to do much anything to them.
09:27:53 <fizzie> I guess technically I could boot from a memory stick if I really wanted to.
09:32:16 <fizzie> We asked for more disk space recently, maybe they tried to add some and accidentally the entire university system while they were at it.
09:36:23 <fizzie> "Aallon IT-palveluissa on häiriö. Vian syytä selvitetään parhaillaan. #aalto #aaltouni" at least the twitter account still works.
09:40:57 <fizzie> TIL: gnome-screensaver's login screen, if you leave it idle, says (ominously) "Time has expired." right before reblanking the screen.
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10:10:26 <fizzie> Heh, all the doors have also locked themselves. (They still accept keycards, but even doors that are normally unlocked at this time of day are locked.)
10:14:41 <kmc> "A truck carrying "dangerous" radioactive medical material has been stolen near Mexico City, the UN's nuclear watchdog says."
10:15:49 <shachaf> For some reason I went back to #haskell after more than a month of being away.
10:16:02 <shachaf> It turns out it's terrible.
10:16:25 <shachaf> 02:08 <arbn> BoR0: Just wave your hands vigorously while saying "unwrap" and look annoyed.
10:16:30 <shachaf> 02:14 <tovarish> bind is the operation to use the magic wand
10:17:00 <kmc> perhaps it will collapse into a black hole of terribleness
10:17:24 <fizzie> `run grep -h terrible wisdom/*
10:17:26 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. \ Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
10:18:43 <shachaf> Everyone will leave and it'll become a cesspool of stupid jokes and clueless bad advice and such.
10:19:43 <kmc> pretty sure i gave my share of bad advice and stupid jokes when i was new there
10:19:50 <kmc> maybe it's a never ending thing
10:20:29 <kmc> a shepard tone of shit
10:21:01 <shachaf> Maybe I thought it was good due to having bad taste.
10:21:05 <shachaf> Or maybe being less grouchy.
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10:46:25 <FireFly> `run grep terrible wisdom/* | cut -d: -f1
10:46:27 <HackEgo> wisdom/brainfuck \ wisdom/gregor
10:50:27 <fizzie> `run grep -l terrible wisdom/* # easier
10:50:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/brainfuck \ wisdom/gregor
10:59:06 <fizzie> Android swipe keyboard is refusing to type "fuck". It keeps saying duck instead.
11:00:07 <FireFly> Oh, there's a flag for that
11:00:15 <lifthrasiir> it may be the case that duck is now a synonym to fuck.
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11:49:34 <int-e> prodanities be damned.
11:51:33 <int-e> Maybe, but I just replaced "f" by "d".
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12:58:33 <ion> http://www.break.com/video/ugc/a-minecraft-convention-is-as-awkward-as-you-think-2546224
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13:23:29 <lambdabot> mrhmouse asked 14h 34m 2s ago: sing me a song
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13:24:04 <boily> @tell mrhmouse play me my song... ♪♪ here it comes again ♪
13:33:23 <nooodl> i felt sorta bad for the one kid who asked a pretty clear question and just got ignored, though
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13:40:52 <boily> there are some weird things going on in the logs... apparently I said «<boily> “oh baby... give up and use mushroom hunting ♪”» once...
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13:42:27 <int-e> ruddy, hunt me some mushroom
13:42:27 <ruddy> there are some weird things int-e, you? int-e, surely int-e, totes
13:43:48 <int-e> oh well, ddg helped.
13:44:23 <boily> ddg helped? BLASPHEMY!
13:44:27 <metasepia> or TOTE, standing for "Test - Operate - Test - Exit", is an iterative problem solving strategy based on feedback loops.
13:45:18 <int-e> boily: what, why, what do you thing ddg means?
13:47:04 <boily> int-e: this, because, this means duck duck go.
13:59:52 <boily> you are not seeing them. they are akin to fungot's fnords. hth.
13:59:52 <fungot> boily: the receiver is ( lambda ( f. g)...) where the begin really is just as stupid
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14:06:45 <boily> hm. apparently the `ello doesn't bind on “L”.
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14:36:25 <FireFly> ruddy: are you sentinent yet?
14:36:26 <ruddy> `olist huh, he hasn't yes, i didn't know they haven't done so yet? olist 930 no one did this yet? really?: ruddy oerjan sgeo FireFly have we tried the "pick which image from this set matches x criteria" approach yet?
14:36:28 <HackEgo> olist huh, he hasn't yes, i didn't know they haven't done so yet? olist 930 no one did this yet? really?: ruddy oerjan sgeo FireFly have we tried the "pick which image from this set matches x criteria" approach yet?: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
14:36:35 <ruddy> olist 930 no `olist huh, he hasn't yes, i didn't know they haven't `olist 930 no one did this yet? really? tertu sgeo ruddy HackEgo tertu sgeo ruddy HackEgo
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14:41:18 <mrhmouse> FireFly: you managed to get rυddy to invoke HackEgo?
14:42:15 <FireFly> I think it decided to invoke HackEgo itself
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14:43:15 <mrhmouse> Just avoiding spamming the channel with its nonsense this early :P (Well, early in my timezone)
14:44:36 <HackEgo> [U+03C1 GREEK SMALL LETTER RHO] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+03B9 GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA]
14:44:59 <int-e> wow, ruddy exhibits more loop potential :)
14:44:59 <ruddy> there wow, what a movie wow, no break-in period! wow, that command actually works wow, thanks for showing that
14:45:23 <boily> @localtime mrhmouse
14:46:05 <mrhmouse> I still don't know what format lambdabot expects from that.
14:46:31 <lambdabot> Local time for boily is Wed, 04 Dec 2013 09:46:29 -0500
14:47:09 <int-e> `run echo -e '\001TIME 123\001'
14:47:47 <int-e> I believe that's the format, but as a NOTICE to lambdabot (and without hackego's replacement of control characters.)
14:50:19 <int-e> (CTCP uses PRIVMSG for requests, and NOTICE for replies; the \001...\001 marks the protocol; ... has a command first followed by arguments.)
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15:05:28 <fungot> fizzie: i've thought of throwing words on to a better low-level interface and use it
15:06:10 <fizzie> RAW >>> :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG fungot :Plugin `localtime' failed with: Prelude.init: empty list <<<
15:06:10 <fungot> fizzie: the book mentioned that bbs case where the natural number n and makes bf interpret bf... n times, and lisppaste its table?
15:06:13 <fungot> FireFly: undefined variable ' cd'.
15:06:21 <fizzie> I seem to recall it just printed out what it got, verbatim.
15:06:37 <fizzie> (I tried to have it say something "funny".)
15:11:28 <boily> fungot, stop being sentient.
15:11:28 <fungot> boily: i don't know if a value is entirely dependent on the stuff. :p))) als)), right
15:11:50 <boily> @localtime metasepia
15:11:53 <lambdabot> Local time for metasepia is Wed Dec 4 10:11:52 EST 2013
15:13:03 <boily> the time is right, the timezone is right, I'm just very surprised that my bot answers @localtime.
15:13:30 <mrhmouse> Is that not a feature of metasepia? o.O
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15:14:15 <fizzie> More sentient bots, I guess?
15:14:36 <boily> mrhmouse: metasepia is mysterious.
15:14:51 <mrhmouse> as long as ruddy doesn't become sentient..
15:14:51 <ruddy> eventually communication will become impossible heero <reply> my hero.|<reply> become an heero|cannot as long as we're golfing 3 vertical long lines huh, . in c and -> in c both become . in rust it's become something of a running pastime for this channel, now and again
15:18:56 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:48:45 <mrhmouse> boily: so yesterday I was looking for content to feed to ruddy, and I realized that I have all of the English subtitles for Nichijou..
15:48:52 <ruddy> star but no actual content oh i just looking at the content of the stack nevermind, i've just realized i had the milestone filter turned on... right, i just realized that's not necessarily the same ] in all cases
15:49:59 <boily> mrhmouse: the implications titillate me.
15:51:11 <boily> ruddy: 日本語をしゃべることができますか？
15:51:39 <boily> ruddy, ruddy ruddy?
15:51:56 <boily> ruddy: what about nipponifying you? do you accept?
15:51:57 <ruddy> will you? boily, thank you? how are you? where are you?
15:52:29 <boily> he will. thank us after the deed. I'm having trouble staying awake. in Montréal.
16:01:07 -!- conehead has joined.
16:03:54 <boily> mroman_: yeah, there was a linux meetup on the other side of the city.
16:03:55 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
16:04:05 <boily> s/mroman_/mrhmouse/
16:05:01 <boily> mroman_: not enough. I want to take further classes, but my current schedule conflicts with stuff that conflicts with other stuff that happens to happen at the same time as things.
16:07:39 <boily> mrhmouse: informal meeting with a presentation, food, weird people...
16:08:58 <boily> tonight, I'm attending the Montréal Haskellers Meetup :D
16:09:23 <boily> that one is going to be very promising. it happens at a nice place, not too far away, and you know, Haskell!
16:10:01 <boily> http://www.randolphpub.ca/
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16:19:27 * oerjan swats ruddy for the fake `olist -----###
16:20:15 <ruddy> you've never asked me hth you've got to then you've been c++-infected. we're going to have to put you out, sorry. at least until you've used haskell and see how great it is who needs 3d glasses when you've got a beret and a casio calculator but you don't find out that you've lost until about 6 hours later
16:22:46 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> i'm ten pages in to an ethernet-phy manual and i'm pretty sure the internet is impossible
16:22:50 <HackEgo> 1141) <Bike> i'm ten pages in to an ethernet-phy manual and i'm pretty sure the internet is impossible
16:25:01 <oerjan> <shachaf> oh so p. <-- i feel p. and w. and b. ?
16:26:31 <oerjan> one of my great dilemmas when i become world dictator will be whether to abolish sleep or not.
16:26:57 <oerjan> because, damn time zones and people not being online.
16:27:07 <oerjan> but also, damn sleep so good
16:35:46 <boily> the other Great Dilemma is: are you going to promote bokmål or nynorsk?
16:39:33 <oerjan> also the people in metropolitan france have to learn quebecois french, and vice versa.
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16:41:32 <boily> oerjan: messemble.
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16:46:10 <oerjan> i assume that's an example, since gt cannot understand it.
16:47:05 <boily> «messemble» → «il me semble» → “it seems to me”, used in a sarcastic manner, much like “yeah right.”
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16:51:38 * oerjan fixes some horrendous grammar at the top of wp's Québécois and Québécois people articles
17:00:29 <oerjan> <boily> ~duck totes <-- http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/130325.html
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17:38:45 <Taneb> Does anyone know of a fun-looking INTERCAL program that preferably can fit into a single slide
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18:44:16 <tromp__> did you check the Comprehensive INTERCAL Archive Network ?
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18:54:25 <boily> @tell oerjan goats are nice. I like goats. they are fluffy.
18:56:35 <Taneb> tromp__, I did not
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19:04:43 <int-e> haha. "You can also download the compiler via gopher: gopher.intercal.org.uk (IPv6 only)"
19:05:00 * int-e tries to find an ipv6 capable gopher client.
19:06:15 <boily> int-e: can I get the URL? I am curious.
19:08:13 <int-e> this? gopher://gopher.intercal.org.uk or this? http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/
19:09:40 <boily> I'll be gophering away, and see if it ipv6es...
19:11:06 <boily> well. it seems to work. downloading from gopher://gopher6.intercal.org.uk/1C-INTERCAL
19:11:53 <int-e> lynx works. that's ... almost boring.
19:12:29 <boily> firefox/overbite works.
19:14:20 <int-e> I guess I had not used gopher in 15 years.
19:14:39 <int-e> Naybe a bit less, possibly as low as 12.
19:17:37 <shachaf> oerjan: or "p. and w. and g." if you prefer
19:17:58 <boily> pretty and with and grok?
19:18:12 <shachaf> please fix HackEgo/ruddy interaction thx
19:18:35 <boily> please let ruddy Invoke the Power of HackEgo.
19:18:36 <ruddy> boily, i you managed yes, please the only chance you have is to get ruddy to invoke boily, really also, won't people be offended if i put religious texts in? ruddy, you made boily, right? ruddy, boily: you're both cute imo boily, meat ruddy. ruddy, this is boily. some people here tried matchmaking boily and ruddy, with no avail.
19:19:05 * boily strokes his cute beard
19:19:19 <shachaf> previously ruddy activated `olist
19:19:19 <ruddy> `olist (931) `olist (932) `olist 930 no one did this yet? really? it seems faster now with 224 kb than previously with 36kb but this does give me the idea to give `olist an incrementing counter.
19:19:21 <HackEgo> olist (931) `olist (932) `olist 930 no one did this yet? really? it seems faster now with 224 kb than previously with 36kb but this does give me the idea to give `olist an incrementing counter.: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
19:19:36 <ruddy> `olist (931) previously boily activated `olist 930 no one did this yet? really? `olist (931) `olist (932) `olist 930 no one did this yet? really? it seems faster now with 224 kb than previously with 36kb but this does give me the idea to give `olist an incrementing counter. but this does give me the idea to give `olist an incrementing counter.
19:19:37 <HackEgo> olist (931) previously boily activated `olist 930 no one did this yet? really? `olist (931) `olist (932) `olist 930 no one did this yet? really? it seems faster now with 224 kb than previously with 36kb but this does give me the idea to give `olist an incrementing counter. but this does give me the idea to give `olist an incrementing counter.: shac
19:20:06 <mrhmouse> shachaf: what does lambdabot use? zero-width space?
19:21:32 <shachaf> I don't know what the deal is with carious cross-bot interactions. Some bots have special cases for other bots.
19:21:48 <shachaf> I also don't know who runs ruddy.
19:21:49 <ruddy> okay, shachaf. never changing okay, shachaf. okay, shachaf. thanks, shachaf. thint-e.
19:22:15 <ruddy> @help run ``run run okay, mrhmouse. okay, mrhmouse. okay, mrhmouse.
19:22:16 <lambdabot> run <expr>. You have Haskell, 3 seconds and no IO. Go nuts!
19:22:17 <shachaf> I think ^O as the first character would probably work in IRC.
19:22:28 <ruddy> i guess thanks again for that tip about infants. i possibly the same thing that happens to all such things, like pesoix and psox. (a quiet death, that is.)
19:23:17 <kmc> ruddy on rails
19:23:26 <kmc> nice song ruddy
19:23:26 <ruddy> sing me a song kmc asked 14h 34m 2s ago: sing and now i have the title song in my head why does that look like a gy!be song title to me... nice
19:24:59 <ruddy> nighty night good night late night last night? anyway, good night now
19:25:03 -!- ruddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:25:35 -!- ruddy has joined.
19:25:46 <olsner> hmm, I think I haven't used gopher since I last used IBM's OS/2 web browser which iirc had gopher
19:27:29 <mrhmouse> kmc: yes, boily taught ruddy to sing I think
19:29:00 <kmc> well done boily
19:29:05 <FreeFull> Firefox used to have gopher built in
19:29:25 <boily> FreeFull: it had, but now you need to overbite it.
19:29:41 <boily> ruddy: sing him a song.
19:29:56 <boily> shachaf: seems that I shall be the one to sing you a song.
19:30:32 <mrhmouse> I think ruddy knows Row Your Boat
19:30:34 -!- muskrat has joined.
19:30:54 * boily sings a Canadian song, full with maple syrup, Québécois, beavers, pierogies, polar bears and hockey ♪
19:31:01 <int-e> ruddy wants a cracker!
19:31:02 <ruddy> and nobody wants to be illegal,
19:31:34 <ruddy> row god mollification is a big one, it's harder for chaotics harder and
19:31:50 <olsner> just do whatever rows your boat, ruddy
19:31:54 <boily> ruddy: you switched gods in a DCSS run?
19:31:55 <ruddy> we just switched these workstations to you
19:32:21 <boily> ruddy, why won't you shachaf?
19:32:22 <ruddy> mine does boily, have you met but no guarantees i won't go stale
19:32:26 <nooodl> that's clearly nethack
19:32:35 <boily> nooodl: DCSS I say.
19:33:06 <nooodl> god mollification *is* harder for chaotics in nethack. dcss doesn't even have alignments. also i remember it being ais523 talking about nethack? vaguely
19:33:14 <mrhmouse> if it can't find a suitable response, ruddy just stays silent. sorry, shachaf :P
19:33:57 <quintopia> mrhmouse: make it say "i don't know, what do you think, fungot?"
19:33:57 <fungot> quintopia: an error: integer division or modulo by zero...
19:34:22 <shachaf> ruddy: you're not a suitable response
19:34:23 <ruddy> more the internet fight or fight response
19:34:52 <mrhmouse> quintopia: I think ruddy is beyond my control at this point
19:34:54 <shachaf> ruddy: ♪ is that your only song ♪
19:34:56 <ruddy> shachaf ♪ hey shachaf ♪
19:35:05 <int-e> fight or flight, ruddy?
19:35:07 <boily> nooodl: “If the penance is reduced to zero you get the "<god> seems mollified." message.”
19:35:21 * int-e feels ignored by ruddy.
19:35:29 <boily> elliott: have you crawled you DCSS today?
19:35:43 <mrhmouse> int-e: ruddy also doesn't respond to /me or notices
19:35:43 <shachaf> ruddy: ♪ i like bugs, i like bugs, i like bugs, i like bugs ♪
19:35:45 <ruddy> `pastelogs ♪ shachaf ♪ hey
19:36:06 <ruddy> ♪ shachaf ♪ hey shachaf ♪
19:36:16 <mrhmouse> good thing I added that zero-width space.. it's pretty fond of invoking other bots lately
19:36:39 <FireFly> ruddy: what do you think of your fellow bots?
19:36:42 <ruddy> do you like cats? do shit
19:37:02 <fungot> FireFly: as the leftmost will be the wired connection between them.
19:37:08 <quintopia> mrhmouse: no, i mean, make that the fallback message when otherwise nothing would be said.
19:37:18 <FireFly> I guess it hasn't met fungot yet
19:37:18 <fungot> FireFly: don't swear. all of this stuff. might as well do it tomorrow. ' night
19:38:02 <int-e> good night fungot ;-)
19:38:03 <fungot> int-e: i dont know what to expect? it's never even explicit in that post?
19:38:30 <int-e> well, that was just mean. condescending, and mean.
19:39:02 <int-e> fungot and ruddy have bad bot personalities.
19:39:02 <fungot> int-e: i've lost the remote anyway.
19:40:25 <FireFly> ruddy: give us a better one, then
19:40:26 <int-e> so is there any bot chatter spinoff of #esoteric?
19:40:27 <ruddy> you have doomed us all
19:41:01 <FireFly> surprisingly fitting. possibly
19:41:04 <ruddy> night nighty night
19:41:07 -!- ruddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:41:26 -!- ruddy has joined.
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19:41:46 <mrhmouse> ruddy: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
19:42:30 <boily> ruddy: who is Sprocklem? why does he emulate Bike?
19:42:32 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
19:43:01 <boily> mrhmouse: not quite nearly it.
19:43:11 <fungot> boily: i'm not. :( i'd really not fancy restarting it. if i had
19:43:23 <Bike> wait, am i being emulated?
19:43:24 <FireFly> ...or however you produced the list of ignored nicks
19:43:24 <boily> fungot: STOP BEING SENTIENT. I am disturbed.
19:43:24 <fungot> boily: the biggest problems of an fnord
19:43:44 <FireFly> boily: such is the life of a fungot
19:43:45 <fungot> FireFly: me still has the source.
19:43:47 <boily> Bike: I was subtly referring to you tendency to disconnect and rejoin.
19:44:12 <Bike> i'll get a bouncer by next year, i swear
19:44:21 <fungot> olsner: methinkx it was a interpreter on a very flimsy pretext. clearly you're actually a british secret agent. i am /still/ confused. you want a
19:44:45 -!- ruddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:45:36 <mrhmouse> int-e: what was the #esoteric variant for spammy text, again?
19:46:33 <int-e> coming from #haskell I expect #esoteric-blah, #esoteric-overflow and #esoteric-in-depth
19:46:58 <mrhmouse> boily, please direct your mapole towards Bike.
19:47:06 <mrhmouse> int-e: I think #esoteric-blah was it
19:47:25 <int-e> I like the ring of "#esoteric-in-depth"
19:47:49 * boily kinetically directs his mapole towards Bike
19:48:45 <int-e> boily: help? you're beyond help, I'm afraid.
19:49:31 <FireFly> int-e: you know, #haskell is a tad bigger
19:50:00 <int-e> FireFly: really now? And what are you doing about that? *g*
19:50:22 <int-e> . o O ( /mode +i #haskell ... hmmm. )
19:50:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:51:04 <int-e> (clearly inviting a whole channel is a sorely missing feature of IRC servers)
20:05:01 <b_jonas> int-e: with freenode extended banmasks, you can give invite exempt to nicks joined to some other channel,
20:05:17 <b_jonas> or I think you can even quiet everyone who isn't joined on a particular other channel,
20:05:35 <b_jonas> with some permission limits.
20:06:13 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:07:44 <zzo38> Why do you need this?
20:08:58 <int-e> zzo38: because it's nicely esoteric
20:10:56 <zzo38> Can you invite exempt everyone who is banned on the other channel?
20:12:04 <kmc> Esoteric Lens sounds like a D&D item
20:13:41 <zzo38> But what is its purpose? Does it have anything to do with the "Lens" in Haskell?
20:14:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
20:14:36 <int-e> I'd like to think that it is really focussed on esoteric matters.
20:16:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't think you can do that with an extban,
20:17:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: but you could do it with an active bot that follows the other channel
20:18:18 * boily adds an item for his next Paranoïa campaign... “esoteric lens”
20:19:44 -!- evalj has joined.
20:19:59 <HackEgo> evalj: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:20:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: in fact, such a bot would be a fun application of the +D user mode
20:21:45 <boily> abort! abort! `unelcome evalj!
20:24:58 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:26:13 <`^_^v> binary trees in the wild: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BYDmkLSCEAEQZQa.png
20:26:46 <kmc> "Paranoïa" eh
20:27:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
20:28:51 <boily> kmc: I couldn't leave the word undiæresised.
20:42:16 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:42:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bf: not found
20:51:43 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:58:54 <boily> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++.
21:05:17 -!- conehead has joined.
21:16:28 <boily> ++++++++[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>
21:16:30 <boily> >>>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-.+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<.
21:17:13 -!- muskrat_ has joined.
21:19:47 -!- muskrat has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:19:50 -!- muskrat_ has changed nick to muskrat.
21:20:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:26:49 <HackEgo> 2013-12-04 19:48:10: <Bike> help
21:29:21 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:31:45 <FireFly> ruddy: settle things for us
21:32:26 <shachaf> ruddy: what's going on in here
21:32:34 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
21:32:37 <shachaf> ruddy: i love monoids. they are so easy.
21:32:39 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
21:32:52 <shachaf> fungot: well? answer the nice bot
21:32:52 <fungot> shachaf: if you define a clone operation and have objects you want fnord handle it.
21:33:09 <fungot> shachaf: that's not linux, that's mmixware. http://people.csail.mit.edu/ rahimi/ helmet/ impossible, you mean? isn't it wiliki? http://www.kollektiv-hamburg.de/forcer/ fnord
21:33:09 <ruddy> <shachaf> shachaf, ruddy: as
21:33:15 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
21:35:15 <boily> <ruddy> <ruddy> <ruddy>.
21:35:15 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
21:35:35 <boily> fizzie: please nore ruddy.
21:35:52 <boily> fizzie: see, even he agrees.
21:36:03 <boily> (nore: v.t. to unignore.)
21:36:56 <mrhmouse> I still haven't gotten ruddy to sing "row, row, row your boat"...
21:36:58 <ruddy> row, row, row your boat
21:37:58 <shachaf> ruddy: tell me a story about pineapples and fountain pens and wheat
21:38:00 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
21:39:17 <int-e> !bf ++++++++[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>>---.+++>>>>>+.-<--.++<----.++++>>++.--<<+.-<<<<<<<<<.>>>>>>>>>+.->+++.---<<<<<<<<<<.>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<.>>>>>>>>++.-->>-.+>----.++++<<<<<<<<<--.++<<<<<<.
21:39:59 <mrhmouse> Hrm. I would think ruddy at least knows about pineapples.
21:40:01 <ruddy> nobody knows yet.
21:40:22 <int-e> pineapple ruddy ruddy pineapply pie
21:40:50 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
21:41:09 <boily> heh. one of my best wisdoms, if I may say so ^^
21:42:27 <FireFly> `run cd wisdom; ? $(ls | shuf -n 1)
21:43:28 <FireFly> `run ? $(cd wisdom | ls | shuf -n 1)
21:43:30 <HackEgo> bash: -: command not found
21:43:55 <boily> `run ? $(cd wisdom | ls | shuf -n 1)
21:43:57 <HackEgo> bash: -: command not found
21:43:58 * FireFly wonders why he wrote a pipe there
21:44:10 <FireFly> `run ? $(cd wisdom; ls | shuf -n 1)
21:44:12 <HackEgo> bash: -: command not found
21:44:26 <HackEgo> bash: -: command not found
21:44:32 <boily> I think the it is got.
21:44:49 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
21:45:02 <FireFly> `run \? $(cd wisdom; ls | shuf -n 1)
21:45:05 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
21:45:13 <boily> hm. another creation of mine.
21:46:16 <boily> `run \? $(cd wisdom; ls | shuf -n 1)
21:46:18 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
21:46:28 <boily> `run \? $(cd wisdom; ls | shuf -n 1)
21:46:31 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
21:46:45 <Taneb> Help I am really tempted to create a Haskell compiler
21:46:50 <boily> `run \? $(cd wisdom; ls -1 | shuf -n 1)
21:46:53 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
21:46:57 <Taneb> Due to being at York and the York Haskell Compiler being utterly dead
21:47:07 <int-e> !bf +++++++++++[>++++>+++>+++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++<<<<<-]>>>.>.>.----------.<+.>+++++.<<<-.>>>.<-------.<<.>>>--------.<<<.>>>+.<----.+++++.<<<++.
21:47:11 <Taneb> I KNOW NOTHING OF COMPILERS THAT IS A SECOND YEAR MODULE
21:47:21 <int-e> there, a bit shorter.
21:53:56 <FireFly> Taneb: just rely on the interwebs instead, it'll probably work out okay
21:54:09 <Taneb> FireFly, also right now I am really busy
21:54:19 <Taneb> I have to right a talk on esolangs in the next 21 hours
21:54:34 <boily> have you read your SICP today?
21:54:37 <FireFly> maybe postpone the haskell compiler for 24-or-so hours
21:55:13 <boily> talking about talking about esolangs, what happened to jsvine?
22:03:26 -!- Sorella has joined.
22:04:02 -!- Sorella has quit (Changing host).
22:04:02 -!- Sorella has joined.
22:07:13 <HackEgo> Sorella: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:07:47 <Taneb> Also why the hell do I still watch all the totheark videos
22:08:15 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:08:26 <boily> there are still new episodes? I dropped MH a long time ago. not enough stuff happening.
22:09:23 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:09:57 <Taneb> boily, I dropped it ages ago
22:10:03 <Taneb> Never bothered to drop totheark
22:16:58 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
22:17:04 <boily> are there any worthwile horror series on youtube anymore? I want to be scared and terrified and disquieted.
22:17:15 -!- ^v has joined.
22:17:18 <boily> (the best kind of videos there is! I watch them just before going to bed.)
22:18:19 <Taneb> boily, House of Leaves is a good bedtime read
22:18:53 <boily> I want to buy a copy. I've been bumping into it countless times on tvtropes, never to read the spoilers.
22:20:43 -!- ^v has quit (Client Quit).
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22:22:46 -!- Bike has joined.
22:23:57 <metasepia> CYUL 042200Z 15003KT 15SM FEW065 OVC075 01/M02 A3016 RMK SC1AC7 SLP214
22:24:08 <kmc> ~metar KSFO
22:24:08 <metasepia> KSFO 042156Z 06003KT 10SM CLR 11/M04 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP166 T01061044
22:24:29 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:25:08 <boily> time to go disappear so somewhere else where there are boardgames and beers.
22:25:25 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CHICKEN TRADING PROGRAMME).
22:25:25 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:25:48 <mrhmouse> @tell boily "Marble Hornets" is supposedly good, according to my SO. I haven't watched it, myself.
22:26:42 <Taneb> mrhmouse, boily had just said he's got bored of MH
22:27:10 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:27:29 <mrhmouse> Taneb: Ah, I didn't catch what the abbreviation was for. Thanks!
22:27:48 <mrhmouse> @tell boily Ignore that; I collect socks.
22:30:17 <oerjan> hm it seems to be sock synchronicity day
22:31:03 <kmc> sockpair(2)
22:31:14 <lambdabot> boily said 3h 36m 48s ago: goats are nice. I like goats. they are fluffy.
22:31:18 <shachaf> Bike: so btw i know about real-sided matrices now
22:31:29 <Bike> orly how's that work out
22:31:32 <Taneb> shachaf, are they like matrices of solidarity
22:31:43 <shachaf> except they're not the linear algebra sort of matrix
22:31:53 <Bike> so not the "matrix" sort of matrix
22:31:54 <shachaf> they're the CHU SPACE SORT OF MATRIX HA HA HA
22:32:09 <shachaf> (a chu space is just a matrix)
22:32:20 <Bike> do you actually have to go all the way up to chu spaces
22:32:25 <shachaf> I.e. a function : X x A -> K
22:33:57 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:34:13 <oerjan> `run echo "A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention." >wisdom/chu\ space
22:36:46 <Taneb> Also, if I've got an ethernet cable running directly from my computer to my RPi how can I work out the IP of the RPi to ssh?
22:40:01 -!- conehead has joined.
22:40:58 <kmc> it won't necessarily have one
22:41:48 <kmc> probably it tried to get one using DHCP but your computer probably isn't running a DHCP server
22:42:04 <kmc> you could run a DHCP server, or set addresses manually on either end with ifconfig
22:42:10 <kmc> or use link-local IPv6 addresses
22:42:35 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:42:36 <kmc> oh I guess IPv4 has those too
22:42:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:44:26 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:44:57 <Taneb> Slower than wirelss
22:45:05 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
22:45:46 <shachaf> oerjan: the important thing about chu spaces isn't what they are but what the morphisms between them are
22:46:16 <Taneb> Right, now I have no way to get onto my RPi
22:46:42 <Taneb> I rely on my desktop's wireless connection and plug my RPi into the socket in the wall thing
22:47:05 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:48:14 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
22:49:15 <Bike> what's wrong with being cosplayed as by shacha
22:49:51 <shachaf> in dual russia, tree cosplays you!
22:52:11 -!- atriq has joined.
22:53:24 <FireFly> In Coratia, tree cosplays you
22:54:06 <shachaf> that's not a country. it's not even an untry
22:54:31 <shachaf> there are so many countries that start with co
22:55:19 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:55:53 <kmc> five genders? "gender is five but men have only one name for it"
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22:56:43 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
23:02:34 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:02:44 <shachaf> perhaps san jose is self-dual
23:03:35 <FreeFull> Dual Las Vegas is somewhere in Kansas
23:03:54 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
23:04:12 -!- ^v has joined.
23:05:34 <oerjan> colombia, costa rica, comoros, are there any others
23:06:38 <oerjan> right. this list also has côte d'ivoire
23:09:19 <oerjan> and cook islands is on this other list
23:09:33 <oerjan> (the only non-un member)
23:13:06 <oerjan> i think we may have discussed that before
23:14:02 <shachaf> how many ør- countries are there
23:14:36 -!- Bike has joined.
23:15:03 <oerjan> there's this municipality named ørland north of the fjord here, though
23:15:05 <Bike> i spent twenty earth dollars on a stereo dac with jack for my fpga that i have no idea how to use because i'm a foolish fool
23:16:03 <oerjan> maybe i should take it over and start conquering the world from it.
23:16:19 <oerjan> i will ironically leave neighboring bjugn out of my empire.
23:16:45 <shachaf> Bike: how much is that in america dollars
23:16:48 <oerjan> (they've been failing to agree to merge for years)
23:19:32 <Bike> shachaf: probably at least eleven?
23:25:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:28:18 <FreeFull> How many countries start with Po?
23:30:03 <Bike> two, looks like.
23:30:41 <Bike> five to seven for co-, also
23:31:53 <Bike> according to wikipedia, yes. right between the philippines and pridnestrovie or qatar.
23:32:32 <Bike> (pridnestrovie is de jure part of moldova)
23:34:32 <kmc> are you looking at english endonyms only?
23:34:36 <kmc> er. exonyms.
23:34:50 <Bike> well, except that pridnestrovie is 'transnistria' in english most of the time.
23:35:20 <kmc> the first time I went to Europe I was like "really, everyone has a different name for every city, are you sure this isn't an elaborate practical joke"
23:35:42 <Bike> i assume that's the european version of pronouncing 'worcester'.
23:35:48 -!- nisstyre has joined.
23:36:01 <Taneb> Bike, what's weird about "Wooster"
23:36:32 <Bike> the one in new england, taneb.
23:37:31 <Bike> you kind of uh, slur the r. i don't know if it's slurring exactly
23:37:41 <Bike> i think it basically boils down to spitting on the foreigner.
23:38:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:38:33 <Bike> huh, did you know pakistan doesn't recognize armenia's sovereignty
23:38:55 -!- tertu has joined.
23:39:24 <Taneb> My mum lived in Pakistan for a bit as a child
23:39:33 <kmc> somebody make a graph of which countries don't recognize each other
23:39:52 <Bike> kmc: because pakistan is buds with azerbaijan
23:40:00 <kmc> a graph of which widely recognized countries don't recognize each other, and another of which mostly not recognized countries do recognize each other
23:40:17 <Taneb> iirc Turkey does not recognize Cyprus?
23:40:29 <Bike> according to wikipedia there isn't much in that way, it's basically israel, cyprus, armenia, china, and the koreas
23:40:36 <Taneb> kmc, how do you pronounce "kmc"?
23:40:38 <Bike> for un states anyway
23:40:48 <kmc> Taneb: i don't use it in speech but uh as three letters i guess
23:40:50 <kmc> my name's keegan
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23:41:04 <FireFly> "kmc" is pronounced "keegan" I guess
23:41:06 <Bike> hm, i supose that means that azerbaijan recognizes armenia.
23:42:15 <kmc> relationship status of Azerbaijan and Armenia has changed to "It's complicated"
23:42:18 <Bike> there is this whole network of eastern european breakaway states though
23:42:25 <Bike> that all recognize each other but nobody else does
23:42:34 <Bike> (except russia)
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23:46:56 <oerjan> well apparently russia doesn't recognize transnistria either.
23:48:10 <Bike> ok, well, they still have a consolate there. also the army.
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23:48:53 <kmc> the US is moving its Holy See embassy into the same building complex as the Italian embassy
23:49:03 <kmc> and a bunch of people got upset that this means the US doesn't think the Holy See is a "real country" anymore
23:49:07 <kmc> and i was like …
23:51:43 <Bike> nobody in my circuits class wants to do boolean algebra ;_;
23:51:44 <oerjan> it's going to be in italy anyway, because the vatican state is too small to fit its embassies, i think.
23:52:09 <shachaf> Bike: hmm tell me about boolean algebra
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23:52:15 <oerjan> Bike: make an intuitionist logic circuit instead hth
23:52:25 <Bike> shachaf: uh, what don't you know
23:52:31 <shachaf> in particular complete atomic boolean algebras
23:52:34 * oerjan wonders how well kripke models work in hardware
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23:52:48 <Bike> oerjan: i did think of jokingly bringing up double negation being controversial but it wouldn't have been funny
23:53:12 <kmc> you should tell people that the axiom of infinity is a large cardinal axiom, as well
23:53:20 <kmc> (speaking of the vatican?)
23:53:28 <shachaf> Bike: for instance what are they
23:53:52 <Bike> algebras over {0,1}?
23:53:54 <shachaf> kmc: these axioms are better anyway: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.6543v1.pdf
23:54:19 <shachaf> complete atomic boolean algebras?
23:54:26 <Bike> man i don't fucking know this is engineering
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23:55:07 <oerjan> i don't think atomicity can be expressed with equations.
23:55:08 <shachaf> the point is that the dual chu set to the one representing a set is a caba
23:55:41 <shachaf> Bike: what do you think of those axioms
23:55:41 <oerjan> shachaf: that's just stone duality, no?
23:56:06 <Bike> "A model of the equational theory of the algebra of all operations on {0,1} of arity up to the cardinality of the model is called a complete atomic Boolean algebra"
23:56:13 <oerjan> which is something chu spaces generalize (i just cleaned up the references in wp's chu space article)
23:56:20 <Bike> i think i don't really give a damn about axioms most of the time
23:56:56 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you think you could switch X and A in the Wikipedia page?
23:57:06 <shachaf> See the [Note] at the top of http://chu.stanford.edu/
23:58:05 <kmc> shachaf: neat
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23:59:45 <oerjan> hm there's an agreement between the holy see and italy that the same person cannot be ambassador to both
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00:00:55 <shachaf> oerjan: what am i paying you for
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00:06:01 <Sgeo> Is Tardis usefully implementable as an operational?
00:06:05 <Sgeo> Because if I understand properly, operational's main limitation is laziness related
00:06:38 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:07:03 <Sgeo> Also, where has the Eff monad been all my life? This is why I sometimes hate Haskell: It takes too long to replace garbage (e.g. monad transformers) with the stunningly beautiful abstractions Haskellers eventually (eventually!) find
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00:07:56 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: or "p. and w. and g." if you prefer <-- hm i didn't know that, although apparently "bright" is the oldest version (sorry, conspiracy theorist i also found when googling)
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00:08:49 <shachaf> oh, i thought that was a newer version
00:11:04 <oerjan> according to the mention there, they changed it from "bright" to "gay" in the film because they changed the time of the scene from night to day
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00:12:27 <oerjan> Sgeo: soon edwardk will generalize the Eff monad into a lens variant, giving us the function effing
00:12:39 * oerjan doesn't know what the Eff monad is
00:12:48 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1s3oba/24_days_of_hackage_extensibleeffects/
00:12:55 <Sgeo> Still don't totally know how it works
00:13:41 <oerjan> ic haven't got around to reddit today yet
00:14:13 <oerjan> and at this speed i might not
00:17:41 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just read the Oleg paper
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00:22:28 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to knuth's christmas tree lecture next week
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00:30:28 <oerjan> <kmc> the US is moving its Holy See embassy into the same building complex as the Italian embassy <-- hm wp says the holy see protested previously when the uk did that.
00:31:22 <Sgeo> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes-aeson-0.2.0/docs/Pipes-Aeson.html
00:31:23 <Bike> what kind of diplomatic affairs can you even have with the vatican? rescuing a tourist from your country who decided to replace fig leaves with cannabis?
00:31:49 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't encode take objects/arrays to encode as its incoming data?
00:32:33 <Bike> isn't that what it's doing
00:34:22 <Sgeo> Maybe, if Pipe is just a synonym for a function taking an argument or something
00:35:00 <Bike> i mean it says encode takes an Either Object Array
00:35:38 <Sgeo> Yes, but as a normal argument to a function to create a Producer
00:35:52 <Sgeo> So you make one producer out of a single object/array and feed downstream with it
00:35:56 <Sgeo> As far as I understand
00:36:57 <Sgeo> Producers are pipes with capped input
00:38:31 <Sgeo> I don't know if there's a combinator in pipes to turn these into less sucky things
00:38:35 <Sgeo> If there is, I'd be satisfied
00:43:09 <oerjan> @tell FireFly <FireFly> ...or however you produced the list of ignored nicks <-- i think it's a fizzie-only command.
00:45:44 <kmc> shachaf: dunno probably not
00:48:22 <oerjan> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++.
00:48:54 <L8D> !bf +++++ +++++ [ > +++++ +++++ > + << - ] > ++++ . + . > .
00:49:36 <oerjan> i thought it was a bug in his people graphic script but he actually has a bf interpreter?
00:49:51 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
00:50:00 <Bike> nice choice of command character (not!!!)
00:50:39 <Sgeo> You can compose producers
00:50:49 <Sgeo> Well, functions that take an argument and return producers
00:51:01 <Sgeo> Or, just use for
00:51:10 <Sgeo> Still, I think a pipe makes more sense
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00:52:36 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'm sure tekmo will explain at length why it's not done that way if you ask him.
00:53:59 <Bike> http://betabeat.com/2013/09/smell-ya-later-nerds/ "that time my editor tried to get me to go on a date with a sex robot"
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00:55:00 <Sgeo> Wait, did Tekmo make the pipes-aeson library?
00:55:04 <Sgeo> I assumed it was some random
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00:55:45 <Sgeo> Oh, not Tekmo I think, just the person who is the biggest contributor to the Pipes ecosystem (iirc)
00:56:10 <shachaf> do we have to talk about pipes in here :'(
00:56:27 <Sgeo> shachaf: do you hate pipes?
00:58:13 <shachaf> i hate everything, remember
00:58:46 <ion> shachaf even hates hating everything
00:59:49 <ion> shachaf also hates the player *and* the game.
01:01:20 <kmc> hatepipe would be a good name for a band
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01:02:34 <kmc> `pastelog name for a band
01:02:39 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; ls | shuf -n 1
01:02:40 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
01:02:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15313
01:03:29 <Bike> gütenbørg would be a good name for a band <-- i concur
01:03:50 <oerjan> Bike: your endoding is showing
01:04:22 <kmc> fuck the web
01:04:25 <Bike> that's how codu presents the file to me.
01:04:28 <kmc> als Gregor FIX YOUR SERVER
01:04:49 <shachaf> is an endoding when you ding yourself
01:07:17 <oerjan> `quote name for a band
01:07:18 <HackEgo> 1012) <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation
01:07:58 <Gregor> kmc: It's not the server, it's Mercurial, and I have no idea how to make Mercurial do it right. Nor do I care enough to look into it.
01:08:51 <Bike> well thanks for giving us something to blame at least
01:08:56 <Bike> let's burn an effigy
01:11:04 <kmc> use a proxy or something
01:11:26 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEzhxP-pdos
01:11:29 <kmc> a reverse proxy just to change the Content-type header
01:20:09 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> shuf is borken. <-- i think your diagnosis is wrong hth
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01:43:13 <oerjan> finally got around to the thing i was going to look up "Therefore, all embassies to the Holy See are located in Rome making Vatican City one of only two sovereign states, the other being Liechtenstein, with no resident embassies located within its territory."
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03:09:45 <Sgeo> Yesod uses Blaze for HTML generation by default?
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04:37:30 <kmc> why does twitter think i should follow @SailorMoonFic
04:44:23 <Fiora> maybe it thinks you're tuxedo mask?
04:48:25 <Sgeo> "As a soft introduction to our approach, we implement the single,
04:48:25 <Sgeo> simplest effect: obtaining a (dynamically-bound) Int value from"
04:48:31 <Sgeo> I can think of a monad simpler than Reader
04:50:59 <kmc> what about data M a = M
04:51:05 <kmc> simpler imo
04:51:12 <kmc> maybe it's not an "effect" tho
04:51:38 <kmc> suppressing all computation seems like an effect to me
04:51:49 <kmc> I guess there are even lazy and strict variants of that monad?
04:51:51 <Bike> is that like the monadic equivalent of the zero function
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04:55:09 <Bike> also i figured out how to get xilinx to tell me what it's synthesizing
04:55:22 <Bike> ais was right, half the report is "we found a multiplexor, you stupid human"
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05:45:41 <Bike> oh sweet, the manual has a full listing of the logic table for a six input lut
05:46:14 <Bike> 000000: INIT[0]. 000001: INIT[1] ... 111111: INIT[63].
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07:04:18 <Sgeo> asdjfajsdfhajklsdfhajdfhlaksjdfhasjkldfhlasjkfaksljfhalkjsdfhsakfjhlafhalksfdjhalksjdfhlaskjdfhalkjdf
07:05:14 <kmc> > sort "asdjfajsdfhajklsdfhajdfhlaksjdfhasjkldfhlasjkfaksljfhalkjsdfhsakfjhlafhalksfdjhalksjdfhlaskjdfhalkjdf"
07:05:15 <lambdabot> "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddddfffffffffffffffhhhhhhhhhhhhjjjjjjjjjjjjjjkkkkkkk...
07:05:21 <Sgeo> The equivalent of gensym for Template Haskell can capture other names
07:05:59 <Bike> i'm worryingly close to thinking that i'll be able to get this audio jack out. i am mad with power and cannot be stopped.
07:06:41 <Bike> what does "capturing a name" mean
07:10:26 <Sgeo> Not totally sure, the example makes little sense to me
07:10:27 <Sgeo> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.8.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH.html
07:11:09 <Bike> why would you put a line of crap into irc because of something offending you if you don't even understand the example
07:12:44 <Sgeo> Because I understand the example well enough to see it could cause pain (although also not sure about how much)
07:13:04 <Sgeo> As in, not sure if normal names in Haskell are more like mkName or more like newName
07:13:08 <lifthrasiir> isn't irc supposed to be the international repository of craps?
07:13:33 <Bike> actually, looking at it, it does seem silly, but whatever it's template haskell
07:14:13 <Bike> i don't know why everyone has such a big problem just having symbols be identifiers without doing all this weird stuff
07:17:03 <Bike> but then i also don't know why xilinx apparently won't let me export a schematic.
07:17:29 <Sgeo> It would be ... polite ... if the TH API docs actually said that {} indicates what the example relates to
07:17:39 <Sgeo> (phrasing it better than I just did ofc)
07:20:34 <Sgeo> It does, in one place
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08:05:06 <Halite[tablet]> How about we create a language for finite state machine
08:07:52 <kmc> there are many of those
08:07:55 <kmc> for example http://www.complang.org/ragel/
08:08:59 <Bike> that looks so much better than lex, jesus
08:09:43 <kmc> oh HarfBuzz uses Ragel? cool
08:10:02 <Bike> is that a company, a program, or a medical condition
08:10:06 <kmc> HarfBuzz is a library with a stupid name that most people haven't heard of
08:10:19 <kmc> but it's responsible for like, most text rendering in open source software
08:10:59 <lifthrasiir> I did know HarfBuzz uses Ragel, but why does it use that? Unicode bidirectional algorithm?
08:11:06 <Bike> your own what, fsm layout thingie? sure, probably educational
08:11:08 <kmc> i don't know
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08:15:53 <Bike> writing your own regex implementation is fun too
08:16:04 <Bike> plus, you pretty much can't possibly make the syntax worse
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08:16:26 <kmc> required reading http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp2.html http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp3.html
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08:17:21 <Bike> oops i didn't know there were parts two and three >_>
08:19:05 <lifthrasiir> and part four. http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp4.html
08:19:20 <Bike> hey the unicode thing is cool.
08:23:27 <olsner> I think that article was my first exposure to the slow method for regexp matching
08:34:29 <kmc> "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bubble: Airbnb's new office has a replica of the Dr. Strangelove war room"
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11:54:05 <ion> “Finns are such a jealous people we are jealous for Scots being the world’s most jealous people.”
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13:19:23 <fizzie> Hey, that http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html example is a wrong.
13:19:29 <fizzie> (I also didn't know about part 4.)
13:20:34 <fizzie> "The following sections present an implementation written in portable ANSI C." "struct State { int c; State *out; State *out1; int lastlist; };" That's not C at all.
13:21:38 <fizzie> (It's missing the "struct" keyword for out/out1, and it does that same thing for all the types, and all member/variable declarations it shows.)
13:23:33 <fizzie> The downloadable version has separate typedefs, so I guess you could argue it's only showing an excerpt.
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13:23:53 <b_jonas> yeah, it probably has a separate typedef above
13:26:54 <boily> good typedefllä morning!
13:26:59 <lambdabot> mrhmouse said 15h 1m 10s ago: "Marble Hornets" is supposedly good, according to my SO. I haven't watched it, myself.
13:26:59 <lambdabot> mrhmouse said 14h 59m 11s ago: Ignore that; I collect socks.
13:26:59 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 6m 49s ago: <boily> shuf is borken. <-- i think your diagnosis is wrong hth
13:27:52 <boily> @tell mrhmouse I won't ignore the sock collection.
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13:28:36 <boily> @tell oerjan <oerjan> <boily> shuf is borken. <-- i think your diagnosis is wrong hth <-- So what was it, then?
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13:32:02 <fizzie> boily: I'm still not oerjan, but it was the special-casing of 'ls' in wisdom.
13:32:02 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 48m 52s ago: <FireFly> ...or however you produced the list of ignored nicks <-- i think it's a fizzie-only command.
13:32:29 <fizzie> `run cd wisdom; ls | shuf -n 1
13:32:31 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
13:32:40 <fizzie> `run \? As whatever whatever whatever
13:32:42 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
13:33:12 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|cuttlefish|ruddy)!
13:33:12 <ruddy> No clue what you mean. What do you think, fungot?
13:33:47 <fizzie> (It is a fizzie-only command, yes, though in retrospect maybe it might not need to be. Especially the query side of it.)
13:34:24 <FireFly> Oh, so I did remember the command name right, then
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14:01:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tanebventions: not found
14:01:51 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, and Go.
14:01:59 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
14:02:38 <Taneb> Also aaaaaaaaaaaaaah
14:02:52 <Taneb> I need to get familiar with INTERCAL 72 very quickly!
14:08:06 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's/modules/&, Chu spaces/' wisdom/tanebventions
14:08:07 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/tanebventions: No such file or directory
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14:09:18 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's/modules/&, Chu spaces/' wisdom/tanebvention
14:09:29 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, and Go.
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14:12:04 <boily> ♪ pdfnouncement ♪ I split the places into their own chapter.
14:12:05 <boily> Taneb: the one with the worms and unascii characters?
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14:16:00 <FireFly> Things were more interesting when you could backspace to overstrike characters
14:18:56 <int-e> surely there must be some terminal emulators that support this.
14:18:58 <FireFly> I wonder if a unicode codepoint for "overstrike next character on top of previous one" would make sense
14:19:29 <int-e> (line printer emulator?)
14:22:15 <boily> I sent «/\b\\», it appears as «mMsg = "test: /\b\\"» from metasepia's logs, but it gets displayed as «/ \» in weechat. I am disappoint.
14:23:08 <int-e> (my?) irssi displays /, then an inverse H, then a \.
14:23:30 <int-e> (the inverse H is ^H, so you sent what you intended to send)
14:25:56 <int-e> boily: abandon all hope etc pp.
14:27:48 <boily> there's also \̸, but it's cheating.
14:28:04 <int-e> et cetera, perge, perge. and so on and so forth. (I had to look it up.) It's moderately common in German, I guess it's not used in English.
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14:32:02 <HackEgo> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
14:36:45 <boily> int-e: you speak German? what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
14:37:22 <int-e> Austria / unknown.
14:38:25 <int-e> (I'm not fond of being tossed around with catapults. What else would you want to know my weight for?)
14:38:51 <boily> to find #esoteric's center of mass.
14:39:14 <Taneb> @ask ais523 Was Underload intentionally a FALSE subset?
14:42:59 <Taneb> @tell ais523 or near-subset
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14:56:16 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
14:57:00 <boily> we live in a sad world. github doesn't highlight befunge.
14:57:37 <Taneb> Is it even possible to syntax highlight funge nicely
14:57:54 <Taneb> Seeing as something may or may not be part of a string depending on where you are looking
14:58:01 <Taneb> *from which direction
15:00:15 <boily> the only solution is to run the code itself and see!
15:00:47 <FireFly> Not only that, but a string could start and end at the same spot
15:00:56 <FireFly> and code could be used both as a string and code
15:04:23 <boily> maybe one should apply stochastic highlighting. at least one character is bound to be properly highlighted.
15:04:29 <mrhmouse> has anybody created an animation of what funge execution looks like? following the IP at a slow enough speed to observe, I mean
15:05:04 <boily> there was that editor I used many years ago when I was on Windows. can't remember its name.
15:05:21 <boily> it had a very DOSsy feeling, what with white text on a blue background.
15:06:25 <FireFly> mrhmouse: http://www.bedroomlan.org/tools/befunge-93-playground
15:08:59 <nooodl> boily: was it EDIT.COM
15:09:02 <mrhmouse> FireFly: Exactly what I was looking for :D Thank you!
15:09:41 <Taneb> Maybe you could sort of have lines of execution
15:11:27 <boily> nooodl: no, a Windows program, with a toolbar and stuff and lots of blue. you could see the IP go around your program, and the stack at the bottom.
15:12:44 <Taneb> Oooh, noncompliance
15:14:05 <fizzie> "However, no known interpreter ever, not even the reference interpreter, seems to have implemented any part of this other than the rules about parentheses, and this is therefore arguably not part of the language."
15:14:41 <Taneb> Oooh, ubiquitous noncompliance
15:15:02 <Taneb> I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it
15:15:08 <fizzie> ^ul ([{}])S( complete noncompliance )!
15:16:22 <boily> you know you're talking to someone serious when they threaten to write something compliant in protest.
15:23:27 <boily> `addquote <Taneb> I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it <FireFly> Taneb: stop complianing
15:23:31 <HackEgo> 1142) <Taneb> I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it <FireFly> Taneb: stop complianing
15:25:04 <Taneb> Is Befunge-93 a strict subset of Befunge-98?
15:26:01 <boily> FireFly: ♪ dıng ♪ you have an active quote!
15:26:20 <FireFly> boily: what makes a quote 'active'?
15:27:03 <FireFly> Taneb: for instance, whitespace inside strings in B98 always correspond to exactly one space (à la HTML) whereas in B93 it's treated literally
15:27:06 <boily> FireFly: you say something.
15:27:20 <FireFly> Oh, I didn't do that in the others
15:27:31 <FireFly> hm, I think I have one where I /me
15:27:34 <boily> (that, and I overlooked your “Meh” uttered in response to oerjan's Standard Flyswatter.)
15:30:10 <Taneb> Is there an online /// interpreter thingy?
15:37:13 <nooodl> should print 93 in befunge-93 and 98 in befunge-98
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15:40:58 <nooodl> i like this one even more
15:41:36 <nooodl> > (sum $ map ord " % ") - 3
15:41:40 <nooodl> > (sum $ map ord " ") - 3
15:48:15 <FireFly> So, are we golfing "print 93/98 depending on befunge version implemented"?
15:48:42 <boily> next step: a wumpus onëliner.
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15:57:13 <b_jonas> what's the metric when golfing befunge?
15:58:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:58:20 <nooodl> also cute but no shorter
15:59:24 <nooodl> (in befunge-93, ';' reverses the IP, so the stack becomes "]bb]" and ']'=93 is printed. in befunge-98 the ;; is jumped over)
16:00:15 <lambdabot> boily said 2h 31m 38s ago: <oerjan> <boily> shuf is borken. <-- i think your diagnosis is wrong hth <-- So what was it, then?
16:00:19 -!- conehead has joined.
16:00:37 <oerjan> @tell boily fizzie is an excellent doctor hth
16:01:10 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
16:01:21 <Taneb> @tell Ngevd when will I ever see you agaaaaiiiiiin
16:01:28 <HackEgo> ?w:EȬ;YQn_dw؋މ5u|kXR[6MUkZe$
16:03:13 <boily> oerjan: hellœrjan.
16:03:39 <boily> @messages-messages
16:04:00 <oerjan> boily: you only get to change two letters hth
16:04:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:04:34 <oerjan> nooodl: now that's just cheesy
16:05:09 <Taneb> "loud" is the base
16:05:37 <FireFly> b_jonas: I've simply used characters-in-source-code on CGSE; that seems fair to me
16:06:03 <FireFly> boily: the edit distance has to be ≤2
16:06:10 <oerjan> boily: that was four letters hth
16:06:18 <boily> edit distance, as in levenshtein?
16:07:02 <oerjan> swap doesn't seem to be primitive
16:08:05 <FireFly> Taneb: oh, also in -98 ~ and & are specified to act as a mirror after reaching EOF, whereas nothing was specified in -93 I think
16:09:00 <Taneb> (I'm presenting a talk entitled "A Tour of Esoteric Programming Languages" in just over 3 hours. I'm making sure I'm not saying anything hideously wrong.)
16:11:04 <Taneb> myname: I don't think so
16:11:30 <Taneb> Maybe I can get someone to record it on their phone
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16:14:45 <mrhmouse> Taneb: your invocation of Ngevd earlier borked tmux :P
16:14:57 -!- `^_^v has joined.
16:15:05 <Taneb> mrhmouse: then tmux is bad
16:15:36 <mrhmouse> Taneb: well it's over PuTTY, so it's entirely possible that I just have PuTTY configured incorrectly
16:15:38 <Taneb> mrhmouse: also sorry
16:16:01 <mrhmouse> Taneb: no problem; I'm only using tmux to view ruddy's logs
16:16:03 <ruddy> then tmux is your invocation of ngevd earlier borked tmux :p hm. trying to start screen in tmux in
16:16:16 <oerjan> mrhmouse: it didn't break _my_ tmux over putty hth
16:16:44 <mrhmouse> oerjan: what's your remote character set?
16:17:27 <oerjan> mrhmouse: ok if you're doing it for ruddy's logs then you probably don't have irssi in there too
16:17:28 <mrhmouse> oerjan: Hmmm, that's the same as mine. And your $TERM? Mine is 'screen'
16:17:31 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
16:17:33 <Taneb> mroman_: it's hat half 7
16:17:35 <oerjan> and irssi does charset fallback
16:17:59 <mrhmouse> oerjan: nope, I only use IRSSI at home :) I'm using Pidgin here.
16:18:42 <Taneb> `hh a hat is an at
16:18:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hh: not found
16:19:23 <HackEgo> Can't open h?: No such file or directory.
16:20:08 <oerjan> mrhmouse: btw iirc tmux always uses screen as its internal $TERM
16:21:31 <HackEgo> Can't open echo hi: No such file or directory.
16:21:49 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
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16:22:07 <oerjan> oh it's meant to be piped.
16:22:32 <boily> `run echo 'hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo' | h
16:23:11 <oerjan> `run echo "hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo" >wisdom/hat
16:23:36 <oerjan> can't keep you unoccupied you know
16:24:03 <boily> oerjan: done. you fiend.
16:24:04 <mrhmouse> oerjan: that's what I thought, too, but I rarely give thought to my $TERM :P
16:25:20 <metasepia> CYUL 051616Z 00000KT 7SM -RA OVC034 03/01 A2981 RMK SC8 -RA INTMT SLP095
16:25:26 <metasepia> EFHK 051620Z 13006KT 9999 FEW020 BKN063 M00/M03 Q0984 NOSIG
16:25:32 <metasepia> ENVA 051620Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW012 BKN047 M05/M07 Q0978 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 34003KT
16:25:33 <boily> woohoo! it's warmer here!
16:26:05 <boily> I like updating the PDF.
16:31:25 <boily> troubles with your world domination plans?
16:31:38 <metasepia> ESSA 051620Z 18019KT 9999 FEW040 04/01 Q0974 R01L/710169 R08/710158 R01R/710161 NOSIG
16:32:27 <FireFly> Though I guess maybe not necessarily up where ESSA is
16:33:52 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
16:34:00 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in catterpillar silk
16:34:51 <oerjan> boily: the world keeps trying to dominate me instead!
16:36:11 <boily> oerjan: the horror! how is your personal identity affected ?
16:36:45 <oerjan> you removed the one which wasn't misspelled hth
16:37:12 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/catt/cat/' wisdom/cocoonspirator
16:38:44 <oerjan> `learn A is _not_ a town in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
16:40:06 <oerjan> `learn A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
16:40:17 <oerjan> FireFly: ok, a village then
16:41:00 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85,_Moskenes
16:42:23 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85_(disambiguation) has plenty
16:42:55 <FireFly> Looks like there's an Å in Sweden and one in Denmark too
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16:57:11 <oerjan> `learn tmyk the more overfilled your brain gets.
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17:06:51 <HackEgo> 1142) <Taneb> I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it <FireFly> Taneb: stop complianing
17:08:22 <oerjan> @tell gregor please fix the logs not to merge duplicate spaces, it's making quotes look like they're not qdbformat compliant hth
17:10:30 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> Is there an online /// interpreter thingy? <-- EgoBot has !slashes
17:10:53 <oerjan> !slashes /X/World!/Hello, X
17:13:47 <HackEgo> 57) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies \ 78) <Warrigal> I seem to think of coaxial cables as being omnipotent somehow. \ 598) <Ngevd> Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge \ 1081) <Phantom_Hoover> my emergency contacts list somehow has my father listed in both slots, in one of them as my d
17:14:59 <int-e> b_jonas: I have some small progress on the nega-Zeckendorf front; empirically, carries from addition and subtraction are limited to -1, 0, 1 in that case as well. I have not yet proved it, but I expect it won't be hard.
17:16:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Etc. pp.).
17:17:01 <int-e> (where a "carry" now is adding the pattern -1,+1,+1 (positive) or +1,-1,-1 (negative) at some position.)
17:20:27 <int-e> Oh, I should add (no pun intended) that in my current representation, the least significant bits are currently to the left.
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17:40:43 <quintopia> Phantom__Hoover: Queen would disagree
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18:01:10 <boily> little-endian is nasty. big-endian is dumb. middle-endian all the way!
18:03:22 <mroman_> 1*2*3*4 = 24 possible endiannesses?
18:03:41 <mrhmouse> are we talking about Lilliputians
18:03:53 <FreeFull> mroman_: Only if you consider the bytes
18:04:06 <mroman_> 32! is probably pretty big
18:04:35 <FreeFull> 32! is 263130836933693530167218012160000000
18:05:13 <FreeFull> I don't think you understand scale. Remember our number system is logarithmic
18:05:42 <boily> pfshaw. I decree that number to be small.
18:06:21 <mroman_> !python reduce(lambda a,b: a*b, range(1,33)) > 2**128
18:06:29 <FreeFull> 2**128 is 340282366920938463463374607431768211456
18:06:30 <mroman_> !python print (reduce(lambda a,b: a*b, range(1,33)) > 2**128)
18:06:37 <olsner> boily: what do you mean small? there are seven zeroes at the end!
18:06:47 <olsner> (that makes it an 8 digit number)
18:07:11 <mroman_> 2**x for x > 32 is always bigger than 32
18:07:48 <boily> olsner: zeroes don't mean nothing. that's why they are zeroes.
18:08:18 <olsner> boily: they mean stuff when you put them next to numbers on the right end
18:08:50 -!- conehead has joined.
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18:12:58 <olsner> I wish I never learnt that car scenes in old movies are shot in a stationary car in front of a projected background
18:13:08 <mroman_> I use it as a random function
18:15:40 <mroman_> due to floating point errors
18:16:28 <boily> myname: ... wut???????
18:16:33 <olsner> and apparently michael caine was young once, that's a bit unsettling
18:17:04 <myname> boily: happens sometimes if i try using irc via a really crappy smartphone
18:18:14 <boily> one reason to learn Chinese: you can draw the characters on the phone!
18:19:07 <myname> i can draw normal letters now, too
18:19:42 <boily> normål lettërs are borįng.
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18:49:05 <boily> FreeFull: ǹòr̀m̀àl̀.
18:51:24 <Bike> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/53122/mathematical-urban-legends/53172#53172
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19:02:25 <b_jonas> int-e: re nega-zeckendorf, nice. can you subtract in normal zeckendorf though?
19:03:12 <int-e> b_jonas: in principle, yes. I don't have the code.
19:04:24 <b_jonas> int-e: because I believe subtraction is possible but I don't know if it can be done the same way as addition
19:04:36 <b_jonas> probably can, if you do negative carries too
19:04:48 <int-e> b_jonas: there are negative carries in addition, too
19:05:30 <b_jonas> int-e: sort of, yes, but the digits of the intermediate result don't become negative
19:06:28 <int-e> b_jonas: I'll probably work a bit on this coming weekend. For now, all I can say is that I'm convinced that the same principle works.
19:09:06 <b_jonas> this probably means that in principle you could implement a serial computer alu with zeckendorf or nega-zeckendorf representation instead of binary, as long as you want integers only
19:09:41 * boily applies a diactriticised kij klonowy onto FreeFull
19:09:53 <b_jonas> int-e: there's one more thing that I think you could do with fibonacci numbers
19:10:11 <b_jonas> int-e: do you know fibonacci-search (instead of binary search) of a list? Knuth describes it
19:10:52 <b_jonas> I think you could do a twin-block allocator (malloc or allocation inside a file) using fibonacci-sized blocks instead of powers of two in a similar way
19:11:09 <b_jonas> it wouldn't be worth, because binary twin-block is much easier, but it would be funny
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19:14:56 <int-e> *checks* "... avoid the division by 2 ...", ok, fairly pointless nowadays :)
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19:17:42 <int-e> The pattern was clear, but I didn't know why one would do this. The idea may still be useful for other searching problems. For example, finding the minimum of a sequence that is strictly decreasing first, and later strictly increasing, with only one change in monotonicity. (The point is that if you have a > b < c, you cannot discard any of the points yet, and with the golden ratio, you can easily add another point between a...
19:17:48 <int-e> ...and b or b and c)
19:19:33 <int-e> b_jonas: oh and fibonacci numbers will be awful for satisfying modern CPU's alignment constraints :)
19:20:09 <b_jonas> nah, that's not the biggest problem, you can satisfy alignment by aligning afterwards
19:20:44 <int-e> it is /a/ problem.
19:21:08 <b_jonas> but yeah, if you did it in a file then the blocks wouldn't be aligned to sectors on the disk
19:21:33 <int-e> I agree that it could be fun. Just not very useful. *checks channel name* not that this is relevant here.
19:22:09 <b_jonas> but yeah, while I know many cases where you could theoretically use a fibonacci version instead of a binary version, I don't know any case where the fibonacci version is more useful
19:22:19 <boily> quintopia: the postcard, it was typed and translated.
19:22:31 <b_jonas> (or, really, many other versions)
19:23:02 -!- carado has joined.
19:23:13 <boily> if there were any, I canceled them when transcribing its content.
19:23:40 <boily> now, I have to find a particularly obtruse language to reply you with back :D
19:24:23 <quintopia> "obtruse" sounds like "unimplemented"
19:25:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
19:25:25 <quintopia> also, i like this idea of "pen pals who could actually talk to each other on IRC any day of the week but choose to spend money on international postage instead"
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19:41:25 <mrhmouse> Is there a term (besides "functional") for the programming style where you avoid { mutations, creating variables, control structures } and instead express things as function calls?
19:42:25 <Bike> function-levle programming? (old skool, yo)
19:42:28 <kmc> most people would use "functional" for that, yeah
19:42:35 <kmc> but maybe "declarative" too, depending
19:42:51 <kmc> for one, it depends what you mean by "variables" and "control structures"
19:43:48 <mrhmouse> kmc: by "variables" I mean anything outside of function parameters, and by "control structures" I mean the constructs of loops and conditionals
19:44:19 <kmc> loops and conditionals are pretty basic boring control structures ;)
19:44:44 <boily> wasn't there a rant that surface recently on the intarwebs saying that “declarative” doesn't mean anythin?
19:45:03 <kmc> see i would level that criticism more at "functional"
19:45:08 <Bike> nothing means anything and we are all together
19:45:20 <kmc> let's argue about whether code which uses first class continuations for control is "functional"
19:45:34 <kmc> they break equational reasoning pretty badly, I think
19:47:20 <b_jonas> int-e: do you know that math problem where you have k eggs and a skyscraper, you have to determine the exact lowest storey where the egg splats if you throw it from the window, minimize the total number of throws worst case?
19:48:22 <b_jonas> int-e: it turns out that you can do it in n tries you can do n choose k or n+k choose k or something like that stories.
19:48:24 <Bike> i do so hate that problem
19:48:45 <b_jonas> int-e: maybe fibonacci search could have some similar interpretation
19:48:49 <kmc> we had that problem in algo class (with coconuts) and my friend actually tossed some coconuts off the CS building
19:49:04 <kmc> god, that was the ugliest fucking building on campus
19:49:12 <b_jonas> kmc: isn't that dangerous in real life/
19:49:13 <kmc> i hope it's been demolished by now
19:49:21 <b_jonas> like, if the coconut hits someone in the head?
19:49:36 <kmc> b_jonas: I mean you probably need someone on the ground to make sure people don't walk into the drop zone
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19:52:37 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, I think it's actually (n choose k) + (n choose k-1) + ... + (n choose 1) + (n choose 0) or something similar
19:53:27 <b_jonas> depending on how you count the stories
19:55:14 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: is there a problem variant that accounts for "skipped" stories? (4, 13... I can't think of any others)
19:55:55 <mrhmouse> FreeFull: I've always thought of "pure" meaning no side-effects in function calls (what D calls pure), but with no restraints inside the function for mutation of variables, etc
19:56:07 <FreeFull> mrhmouse: You can simply factor in the skipped stories afterwards
19:56:14 <mrhmouse> FreeFull: I'll go look up "pure programming", though :) devlaritve wasn't it
19:56:27 <b_jonas> I don't even know whether we skip story numbers in here, because there are very few buildings that would have a 13th storey in first place
19:56:37 <FreeFull> mrhmouse: I guess it's externally pure vs internally pure or something like that
19:57:22 <kmc> mrhmouse: heh
19:57:37 <kmc> the samsung office building i worked from for a week skipped both 4 and 13
19:57:40 <kmc> very multicultural
20:00:35 <boily> quintopia: I fear I may be a little bit too hipster when it comes to stationary and stuff used to colourify it. I'm a fountain pen user, I buy notebooks with quality paper, I have more ink than I need for a few lifetimes...
20:03:25 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:03:28 <mrhmouse> boily: how do you feel about fountain pens with onboard ink repositories?
20:03:47 <mrhmouse> boily: as opposed to, say, an ink well that you refill at
20:07:36 <boily> mrhmouse: the one I use the most has cartridges. other than that pen, I have one where you use a «compte-gouttes» to drip ink into its body, one with an adapter cartridge with a siphon, and one with a pressure pouch.
20:10:10 <Bike> "MS experts: can anyone tell me how to insert a Powerpoint slide into a Word document such that it is rotated 90 degrees?"
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20:29:50 <boily> jsvine: long time no see!
20:31:32 <jsvine> Got wrapped up with a big project, then went on vacation.
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20:36:08 <boily> jsvine: plenty of things, silly discussions, world domination plans, the regular...
20:36:44 <jsvine> boily: Sounds like my FOMO was fully justified.
20:36:52 <boily> (also, shameless plug: please take a look at the PDF → https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf)
20:37:14 <boily> jsvine: what's a fomo?
20:37:50 <jsvine> boily: "Fear Of Missing Out": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_missing_out
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20:40:23 <Taneb> My talk went alright
20:40:54 <Taneb> I was kind of nervous and didn't really know what I was doing, though
20:41:31 <Taneb> It has been recorded, but it's not online yet
20:45:29 <olsner> hmm, lots of these phantom hoover quotes that I don't recall seeing before before are great
20:45:51 <HackEgo> 108) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there. \ 112) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just ste
20:46:24 <quintopia> boily: if you need a g/f i know a girl who likes tea and fountain pens
20:48:44 <boily> quintopia: sorry, I already have one, who incidentally likes tea and fountain pens :)
20:49:23 <quintopia> boily: cool. did she get you interested or v/v or was it just mutual from the beginning?
20:50:23 <boily> quintopia: pretty much mutual.
20:50:45 <olsner> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/aliens-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html
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21:00:13 <olsner> maybe the HackEgo section including all quotes involving other quotes is redundant
21:01:03 * ais523 is back in the UK again
21:01:17 <Taneb> I didn't realise you ever weren't
21:01:32 <Taneb> Also this evening I presented a short talk on esolangs and it was scary
21:02:36 <olsner> boily: re (By the way, what with the pineapples?) - apparently pineapples are a "running gag" in Psych (although not in a way you'd notice without reading about it first)
21:03:07 <boily> psych, as in that weird online RPG?
21:03:12 <ais523> Bike: VHDL does let you parameterize bus widths, although the syntax is bizarre
21:03:20 <olsner> boily: nah, the TV series
21:03:25 <ais523> Taneb: no, not intentionally, but it's not surprising
21:04:33 <boily> (meanwhile, finally managed to compile ocharles' latest article → http://ocharles.org.uk/blog/posts/2013-12-05-24-days-of-hackage-scotty.html)
21:04:57 <Bike> ais523: i'm used to hdl syntax being bizarre by now :(
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21:09:05 <olsner> `run cp wisdom/døsthiswork wisdom/døsthiswørk
21:09:15 <olsner> `run cp wisdom/doesthiswork wisdom/døsthiswork
21:10:27 <olsner> `run cat wisdom/Everyone | tr a-z A-Z > wisdom/EVERYONE
21:10:31 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/Everyone: No such file or directory
21:10:57 <olsner> hmm, how does the case stuff work again
21:11:47 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:13:34 <FireFly> olsner: I think ? lowercases its input, unfortunately
21:13:54 <olsner> yep, it's done in ? indeed
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21:15:55 <olsner> boily: is demoiselle a word or truncated mademoiselle?
21:16:08 <boily> olsner: it's a word.
21:16:18 <boily> meanwhile, new repo! https://github.com/pfcuttle/twentyfour-2013
21:16:46 <olsner> the longer one means something like "my" demoiselle then? or they're both used?
21:17:16 <boily> demoiselle is just the personne, mademoiselle is the address, as with monsieur, madame, etc.
21:17:39 <olsner> oh, and those are my sir, my dame?
21:19:13 <boily> fr:monsieur → en:mister, fr:madame → en:mrs, fr:mademoiselle → en:miss.
21:19:32 <boily> there was a controversy about the usage of «mademoiselle» last year.
21:19:47 <olsner> I know what the words *mean*, but I'm trying to make sense of them
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21:20:52 <boily> oh. well, in that case, you tries are correct.
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21:21:15 <boily> «monsieur» → «mon sieur» → «mon seigneur».
21:21:26 <boily> «madame» is straightforward.
21:22:24 <boily> there was also «damoiseau» (masc. version of demoiselle). that one disappeared a long, long time ago.
21:25:54 <b_jonas> boily: isn't damoiselle derived from dame?
21:25:59 <b_jonas> how can it have a male version?
21:26:34 <olsner> maybe it's de mois elle and de mois eau?
21:27:24 <b_jonas> where "mois" would mean what?
21:27:29 <olsner> and eau might be an alternate spelling if il or whatever the masculing third person is in french
21:27:46 <b_jonas> sure, eau is clear, there's a pronoun eaux
21:28:59 <olsner> me, mine, to me, month, something
21:29:09 <b_jonas> ok, it's not derived from dame, but I don't think it's related to de moise either
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21:30:11 <FireFly> just kidding, I know approx. 0 french
21:30:14 <olsner> ooh, and damsel is another spelling of demoiselle
21:30:34 <b_jonas> that wouldn't make sense...
21:31:05 <b_jonas> the pronoun is "eux", not "eaux"
21:31:12 <boily> http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/damoiseau
21:31:22 <boily> there is some weird fungot going on with those words...
21:31:23 <fungot> boily: the migration is reversed of yours. signed: anonymous' text.) hmm... long digression in any case, i should
21:31:43 <FireFly> fungot: you definitely should.
21:31:43 <fungot> FireFly: nope. haskell.
21:32:01 <FireFly> fungot: is this some kind of functional-programmer "chuck testa" thing?
21:32:01 <fungot> FireFly: and in fnord we needed a nickname, so we know when one of your friends? -g ( was that good grammer?)
21:32:28 <FireFly> fungot: it wasn't very good grammer, no, I'm sorry. You need to markov your sentences better
21:32:29 <fungot> FireFly: how so? it could be hacked up using forth execution tokens...) is relying on implicit program state where none was necessary. the same can be said of scheme.
21:33:00 <FireFly> fizzie: you should apparently hack up fungot's chat code using forth execution tokens
21:33:00 <fungot> FireFly: i can't say whether someone is using it right now tho
21:34:21 <olsner> domina/dominus -> diminutive +cella/us -> fudge some letters -> damoiseau/elle
21:37:24 <fungot> olsner: the bot is not an oversight that they were thinking " what the hell does one implement a script language anyway
21:44:00 <boily> fungot: what did I say about being sentient?
21:44:00 <fungot> boily: i am not easy to find the equivalent of developing at the lisp repl.
21:47:01 <olsner> the equivalent of developing fungot at the lisp repl? hmm...
21:47:01 <fungot> olsner: ' while true: pass', fnord seconds
21:47:49 <FireFly> fnord must be a huge number
21:48:04 <olsner> fnord seconds are not like other seconds
21:49:27 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
21:58:13 <olsner> uh oh, there are now monad *video* tutorials
21:58:34 <Bike> just a soothing voice and face reading maclane out loud
21:59:14 <kmc> the floating head of arthur frayn explains monads
21:59:29 <boily> how many fnord seconds in a megalun?
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22:01:39 <olsner> I want the floating heads of zardoz to explain monads
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22:04:47 <kmc> shachaf: in Rust you can't always transform a struct field access to a call to an accessor function :/
22:05:25 <kmc> because &self.x will only borrow that field but self.get_x() will borrow the whole thing (fn get_x<'t>(&'t self) -> &'t whatever)
22:06:03 <shachaf> that seems like a thing that should be not the case
22:06:06 <Taneb> Oh yeah, that reminds
22:06:24 <kmc> so introducing such a get_x (because you want to add an assertion, for example) can require nontrivial changes to all the users of that field :/
22:06:33 <kmc> my solution was to write a macro instead :3
22:06:42 <kmc> macro cat is watching you abstract syntactically
22:08:05 <kmc> i think there's an interesting interplay between macros and static vs. dynamic checking in the design space of programming languages
22:09:08 <kmc> macros are a form of abstraction which defers static checking until the abstraction is used
22:10:11 <shachaf> So are C++ templates, sort of.
22:10:22 <kmc> which means they are more necessary in static languages, but also you lose more by using them vs. alternatives
22:11:10 <kmc> yeah, C++ templates are a macro system for the purposes of this point
22:11:27 <kmc> although I'm starting to appreciate more and more how they can do things that macro systems can't and also things that traditional polymorphism can't
22:11:33 <kmc> they are a really strange and unique feature
22:11:47 <kmc> it's such a hot mess
22:11:54 <shachaf> which things are you thinking of
22:14:32 <Bike> cool i have a circuit working that i can't simulate correctly
22:14:40 <Bike> kmc: what's a thing templates can do that macros can't?
22:15:24 <kmc> they're wired into the type system so they can introspect on types
22:15:44 <Bike> meaning what exactly
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22:16:48 <olsner> they're sort of logic programming pattern matching on types to decide which bit of code to generate
22:17:03 <kmc> you can write a class template which does something different when its type argument is a reference, vs. a struct, vs. an int
22:17:05 <Bike> oh, so you generate ifferent code for classes and integers, sorta thing?
22:17:11 <kmc> and you can do these things recursively to deconstruct types
22:17:34 <kmc> I think the key language features enabling this are template specialization, function overloading, and SFINAE
22:17:39 <kmc> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_failure_is_not_an_error)
22:18:11 <kmc> so for example there's a standard library of "type traits" (http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/type_traits/), predicates about types which can be used to direct template expansion
22:18:15 <olsner> SFINAE is pretty much backtracking, I think
22:21:49 <kmc> oh and with constexpr you can do plenty of straightforward compile-time computation on these things, as well
22:22:55 <kmc> Taneb: what were you reminded of?
22:26:23 <HackEgo> _46bit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:26:24 <_46bit> Had a bit of fun listening to Taneb talk about esolangs earlier :-)
22:26:36 <kmc> did you plug our channel Taneb? :)
22:26:58 <kmc> also is there a record of the talk online (e.g. slides)?
22:27:27 <_46bit> kmc: We videod it, will be online tonight or tomorrow
22:27:42 <_46bit> I hadn't come across Slashes before but it looks like the esolang for me
22:27:52 <Bike> what's taneb talk about again. something about haskell cellular automata
22:28:14 <_46bit> Bike: (in)formally entitled A Tour Of Esoteric Programming Languages
22:28:36 <_46bit> There's something wonderfully entertaining to my mind about a program that self-modifies to do even the simplest things
22:28:59 <Bike> i think i figured out why my test wasn't working. i didn't have an initialization for a register. in the actual circuit there was some default initialization but the simulator ain't having none of that shit so it just floated everything like an asshole
22:29:04 <kmc> then you'll like my upcoming blog post _46bit
22:29:08 <Bike> is slashes ///?
22:29:17 <Bike> yeah good language
22:29:40 <shachaf> Taneb is p. famous here for inventing d-modules and other things
22:29:40 <kmc> _46bit: it's about how x86 is turing complete with no registers, as long as you allow self-modification of operands
22:29:54 <Bike> though i don't think of it for the self-modification so much as demonstrating The Awesome Power of Grammar
22:29:59 <kmc> Bike: ah yeah a plague of ?'s
22:30:15 <_46bit> I had some fun considering integer incrementation during the talk actually
22:30:20 <Bike> kmc: i hope you tie this into the fun vax addressing mode
22:30:34 <kmc> Bike: i should mention it at least
22:30:38 <kmc> I failed to find info on that, though
22:30:46 <kmc> I think VAX gives x86 a run for its money as far as CISCiness goes
22:30:47 <Bike> i think it's pretty much what it sounds like.
22:30:55 <_46bit> shachaf: indeed, apparently he invented d-modules when he was older
22:31:06 <shachaf> and also chu spaces (the best thing)
22:31:10 <Bike> vax had polynomial evaluation and my professor wrote binary search as an instruction, i fucking love that
22:32:03 <Bike> not that polys are remotely hard but stilllll
22:33:25 <Bike> hm nope everything's still floating. wonder what i fucked up.
22:35:20 <FireFly> Bike: you should fix the floating things
22:35:24 <kmc> how does "binary search as an instruction" work
22:35:29 <Bike> thanks firefly.
22:35:45 <ais523> kmc: presumably like the x86 string copy instructions
22:36:03 <Bike> used microcode. i don't know the details.
22:36:13 <kmc> was user microcode upload a supported feature?
22:36:35 <Bike> no, he had to steal an undocument from a company technician :D
22:37:09 <Bike> he xeroxed it and bound it in some ripped up jeans of his girlfriend's, is what he said
22:37:15 <Bike> somethin like that
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22:38:25 <_46bit> Haha, I wish someone did that for modern CPUs.
22:38:40 <Bike> i really wish these synthesis tools would give me more errors instead of blithely letting me design circuits that only work by accident
22:38:51 <kmc> put your circuit near a source of RF noise
22:39:05 <FireFly> the xerox-and-ripped-jeans part
22:39:14 <Bike> i've mentioned it before, probably
22:39:27 <Bike> i'm reasonably sure he wasn't making this up since he passed the thing around, btw
22:39:44 <Bike> _46bit: do what, put together an undocumented behavior guide?
22:40:45 <_46bit> Although in fairness, people get legal threats over ARM simulators let alone that.
22:40:53 <shachaf> documentation of all documents that do not document themselves
22:40:55 <Bike> doesn't uh, what's his name, the x86 micro guy pretty much cover that
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22:41:34 <Bike> alternately the four thousand page optimization manuals
22:41:44 <Bike> agner, that dude.
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22:43:12 <Bike> good news i fixed the floating. and the problem was what i thought. these tools cost like a billion dollars, they oughta be able to tell me not initializing an output register is stupid
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22:49:52 <FireFly> > fix cos :: Floating a => a
22:50:18 <FireFly> Bike: you're better than lambdabot at fixing the floating
22:50:40 <Bike> nope i'm in circuit mode, i can't think about iterated trig functions
22:50:54 <Bike> though sine does have one obvious fixed point.
22:52:21 <shachaf> <...> we need a #haskell-oldboys
22:52:59 <Bike> opped by haskell curry
22:53:35 <oerjan> <_46bit> I had some fun considering integer incrementation during the talk actually <-- been there done that http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#itflabtijtslwi (that's /// with a minor addition to allow input)
22:54:38 <_46bit> oerjan: Is that a /// implementation in Deadfish?
22:56:22 <oerjan> hm jsvine was here earlier
22:56:52 <ais523> _46bit: other way round
22:57:02 <ais523> you can't implement /// in Deadfish
22:57:20 <ais523> you basically can't implement anything in Deadfish, apart from programs to print out constant lists of numbers
22:59:18 <oerjan> *numbers other than 256
22:59:31 <_46bit> ais523: oh yes, is Deadfish not turing-complete?
22:59:47 <ais523> _46bit: it's not really anything-complete
22:59:49 <oerjan> _46bit: it's about as un-turing-complete as you get
22:59:59 <ais523> it isn't even truth-machine-complete
23:00:20 <Bike> i dunno, programs that just output numbers can be interesting.
23:00:57 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, you can't write 256
23:01:11 <ais523> this reminds me of that hello world program in Radixal!!!!
23:01:28 <ais523> the person who wrote it commented on how ridiculous it was to have a language that had both input and output, but couldn't do cat
23:03:46 <oerjan> _46bit: deadfish's niche is basically to be as useless as you can get while still being fun to implement
23:04:39 <oerjan> ais523: though it's not the only such language, e.g. thue
23:04:49 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:05:24 <oerjan> although in the case of radixal is more "intentional"
23:05:25 <ais523> in Radixal!!!!'s case, though, it's purely due to being perverse for no good reason
23:06:22 <kmc> kangxi radical fight
23:07:13 <oerjan> `unicode KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT
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23:07:17 <Bike> holy christ did i fuck up this circuit
23:07:33 <oerjan> for half a second putty showed that as s)
23:07:52 <fungot> 226 128 139 226 190 190
23:08:05 <lexande> is haskell part of the dream of the 90s?
23:08:16 <Bike> is haskell alive in portland
23:08:32 <oerjan> Bike: no it's sleepless in seattle
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23:13:25 <oerjan> <mroman_> 2**x for x > 32 is always bigger than 32 <-- 2**x > x, see: cantor
23:14:34 <oerjan> hm it's true if you replace 2 by any number > 1, isn't it
23:15:58 <oerjan> @check x>1 ==> x**y > (y::Double)
23:15:58 <lambdabot> Plugin `check' failed with: Ambiguous infix expression
23:16:16 <ais523> oerjan: 1.1 ** 2 = 1.21 < 2
23:16:17 <oerjan> @check \x y -> x>1 ==> x**y > (y::Double)
23:16:17 <lambdabot> Plugin `check' failed with: Ambiguous infix expression
23:16:59 <ais523> my value for 1.1 ** 2 is more accurate
23:17:04 <Bike> i thought you were talking about 2 ** x
23:17:23 <ais523> lambdabot's looks more accurate, though, because of all the zeros
23:17:35 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
23:18:02 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
23:18:03 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test and 1 shrink):
23:18:29 <oerjan> int-e: very useful output format, that
23:18:53 <ais523> oerjan: it took more than 100 tries to falsify that? is it just trying numbers at random?
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23:19:14 <lambdabot> You have QuickCheck and 3 seconds. Prove something.
23:19:29 * ais523 objects to the use of the word "prove"
23:19:42 <ais523> the program you use to run Perl testsuites is called prove(1)
23:19:46 <oerjan> @check \y -> (2**y > (y::Double))
23:19:49 <oerjan> @check \y -> (2**y > (y::Double))
23:19:51 <ais523> my brain mentally objects to the name every time I run it
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23:20:37 <lambdabot> [0.0,1.0,1.1,1.1105342410545758,1.1116498000257782,1.1117680015030489,1.111...
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23:21:02 <oerjan> that explains why my argument failed, i didn't consider that could converge
23:21:05 <Bike> the limit exists for less than 1/e or something, iirc
23:21:17 <ais523> Bike: yeah, I guessed it would be something like that
23:21:36 <ais523> was trying to work out how to find the break point
23:21:37 <oerjan> Bike: well 1.1 is > 1/e
23:21:44 <ais523> but it almost certainly involves e somethow
23:21:45 <Bike> well you suck!!
23:21:50 <Bike> here i'll look it up
23:22:26 <Bike> oh it's e ^ (1/e).
23:22:28 <Bike> what a great number
23:22:42 <ais523> let's see… we want (x**y)/y to be < 1; that means y*log x - log y is negative
23:22:56 <Bike> also this was shown by euler because of course it fucking was.
23:23:17 <ais523> so to find the largest possible x that works, we need to find the y that maximizes log y / y
23:23:33 <ais523> and yeah, I think that's 1/e from memory
23:24:25 <ais523> log e / e = 1/e, so the value of x we need is e^(1/e)
23:24:54 <ais523> > (exp 1) ** (1 / exp 1)
23:25:07 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Leonhard_Euler
23:25:13 <oerjan> > exp (1/exp 1) -- *cough*
23:25:28 <ais523> oerjan: I wasn't trying to golf :-(
23:25:43 <ais523> > (exp (1 / exp 1)) ** (exp 1)
23:25:59 <ais523> well, theoretically that should be equal to e
23:26:01 <ais523> and it looks pretty close
23:26:14 <ais523> > exp (exp (1 / exp 1))
23:27:33 <ais523> although, e^x is always >= x^e, and e is the only number for which that's true (for positive x)
23:27:56 <oerjan> > iterate (exp(exp(-1))**) 0
23:27:57 <lambdabot> [0.0,1.0,1.444667861009766,1.7014206956610736,1.8699612238030825,1.98957349...
23:29:05 <Bike> now find the lower limit!
23:31:03 <oerjan> ais523: hm it's obvious that e is the only one if it's true :)
23:31:11 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, it's obvious that there's only one
23:31:15 <ais523> as soon as I realised that I set out to find it
23:32:12 <ais523> it's one of those things that calculus is really good at
23:32:50 <lambdabot> [0.0,1.0,0.9,0.9095325760829622,0.9086195391380412,0.9087069507641854,0.908...
23:33:43 <oerjan> ok there might actually be a lower limit of sorts?
23:33:57 <lambdabot> [0.0,1.0,0.1,0.7943282347242815,0.16057272043212115,0.6909192287599791,0.20...
23:34:10 <oerjan> > drop 100 $ iterate (0.1**) 0
23:34:11 <lambdabot> [0.3989449593934298,0.3990754762592498,0.3989555616466416,0.399065733912108...
23:34:25 <oerjan> hm that doesn't look very non-converging
23:35:10 <oerjan> i'm going to guess it converges for every 0<x<1
23:35:31 <oerjan> hm obviously for 1 as well
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23:36:14 <oerjan> > drop 100 $ iterate (0.01**) 0
23:36:15 <lambdabot> [1.3092520507995337e-2,0.9414883685756696,1.3092520507995337e-2,0.941488368...
23:36:43 <oerjan> hm that's not very quickly converging
23:36:43 <ais523> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.1**) 0
23:36:44 <lambdabot> [0.39901297826025206,0.3990129782602521,0.39901297826025206,0.3990129782602...
23:37:16 <ais523> seems to be alternating at that point, presumably due to floating point inaccuracies
23:37:20 <oerjan> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.01**) 0
23:37:21 <lambdabot> [1.3092520507995337e-2,0.9414883685756696,1.3092520507995337e-2,0.941488368...
23:37:32 <oerjan> oh that doesn't look like it converges
23:38:06 <oerjan> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.01**) 0.01
23:38:07 <lambdabot> [1.3092520507995337e-2,0.9414883685756696,1.3092520507995337e-2,0.941488368...
23:38:20 <oerjan> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.1**) 0.1
23:38:21 <lambdabot> [0.39901297826025206,0.3990129782602521,0.39901297826025206,0.3990129782602...
23:39:31 <oerjan> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.07**) 0
23:39:32 <lambdabot> [0.3719261662560938,0.37193045518462764,0.37192621320203767,0.3719304087522...
23:39:38 <oerjan> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.06**) 0
23:39:39 <lambdabot> [0.2168980649057752,0.5432295305057313,0.2168980649057752,0.543229530505731...
23:40:00 <oerjan> hah i think i may have guessed right that it changes at 1/e^e
23:40:28 <oerjan> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.065**) 0
23:40:29 <lambdabot> [0.3030082866002573,0.43682039793123895,0.3030095664824946,0.43681886976616...
23:40:33 <oerjan> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.066**) 0
23:40:34 <lambdabot> [0.3404782877557717,0.3963513487529059,0.3405059041591694,0.396321598088106...
23:40:50 <oerjan> > drop 1000 $ iterate (0.067**) 0
23:40:51 <lambdabot> [0.3648850253415895,0.3729514282282367,0.3649076104537553,0.372928660621407...
23:41:49 <oerjan> > drop 10000 $ iterate (0.067**) 0
23:41:50 <lambdabot> [0.368912903977469,0.3689129039775534,0.3689129039774693,0.3689129039775531...
23:42:05 <oerjan> > drop 10000 $ iterate (0.065**) 0
23:42:06 <lambdabot> [0.3031239805467282,0.43668228225140027,0.3031239805467282,0.43668228225140...
23:42:12 <oerjan> > drop 10000 $ iterate (0.066**) 0
23:42:13 <lambdabot> [0.36037642863910974,0.37548402040723905,0.360377452553513,0.37548297539825...
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23:42:55 <oerjan> > drop 100000 $ iterate (0.066**) 0
23:42:56 <lambdabot> [0.36762949368556197,0.3681540095360947,0.3676295111928457,0.36815399201691...
23:43:45 <oerjan> it think it converges for x > 1/e^e, although pretty slowly when it's close
23:43:55 <oerjan> and alternates for x < 1/e^e
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23:48:45 <oerjan> hm well there's still that small alternation that might be just floating point error for larger
23:50:27 <oerjan> > iterate (0.1**) (0.39901297826025206 :: CReal)
23:50:43 <oerjan> > drop 5 . take 10 $ iterate (0.1**) (0.39901297826025206 :: CReal)
23:50:44 <lambdabot> [0.3990129782602520791881769909114066462547,0.39901297826025206462150470053...
23:51:18 <oerjan> > drop 5 . take 20 $ iterate (0.1**) (0.39901297826025206 :: CReal)
23:51:21 <lambdabot> [0.3990129782602520791881769909114066462547,0.39901297826025206462150470053...
23:51:51 <oerjan> > drop 15 . take 20 $ iterate (0.1**) (0.39901297826025206 :: CReal)
23:51:53 <lambdabot> [0.3990129782602520748500883139609762878626,0.39901297826025206860717284755...
23:52:20 <oerjan> well it seems to be converging further
23:53:10 <ais523> > drop 100 . take 2 $ iterate (0..1**) (0 :: CReal)
23:53:11 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:31: parse error on input `..'
23:53:14 <ais523> > drop 100 . take 2 $ iterate (0.1**) (0 :: CReal)
23:53:38 <oerjan> you're dropping 100 elements from a size 2 list
23:53:53 <ais523> > drop 100 . take 102 $ iterate (0.1**) (0 :: CReal)
23:54:22 <ais523> so was I, thought it was worth a try anyway
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00:00:27 <oerjan> @let src0 f (a,b) | x == a = a | x == b = b | otherwise = (case (signum (f a), signum (f x), signum (f b)) of (_, 0, _) -> x; (-1, -1, 1) -> src0 f (x,b); (-1, 1, 1) -> src0 f (a,x); (1, 1, -1) -> src0 f (x,b); (1, -1, -1) -> src0 f (a,x); _ -> error "Bounds don't have opposite signs") where x = (a+b)/2
00:02:07 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.1) (0.3,0.4)
00:02:17 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.1) (0.3,0.4 :: CReal)
00:03:09 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.01) (0.3,0.4)
00:03:10 <lambdabot> *Exception: Bounds don't have opposite signs
00:03:23 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.66) (0.3,0.4)
00:03:25 <lambdabot> *Exception: Bounds don't have opposite signs
00:03:53 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.66) (0.01,1)
00:04:06 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.066) (0.01,1)
00:04:26 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.065) (0.01,1)
00:04:43 <Sgeo> .... people are being taught never to use GET because it's insecure?
00:05:30 <oerjan> maybe it's a fixpoint but not an attractor
00:05:55 <ais523> Sgeo: this is HTTP GET, right?
00:06:05 <Sgeo> But in the context of forms
00:06:09 <ais523> I can sort-of see how the message could get that distorted
00:06:28 <ais523> the correct rule, btw, is to never use GET for anything non-idempotent or that has side effects, otherwise always use it
00:06:49 <Sgeo> ais523: password that leads to a static site
00:07:03 <Bike> Sgeo: you know about how PHP used to only have register_globals for post i hope
00:07:06 <Sgeo> Don't want that password in history
00:07:16 <ais523> Sgeo: yeah, you should use POST for that
00:07:33 <ais523> it's not exactly a side effect, but it behaves a lot like one
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00:08:10 <Bike> Sgeo: get is insecure, man!!
00:08:19 <Sgeo> So... POST used to be horribly insecure in PHP?
00:08:28 <Sgeo> erm, wait, anyone could POST maliciously anyway
00:08:32 <ais523> Sgeo: actually, everything used to be horribly insecure in PHP
00:09:15 <kmc> "used to be"
00:09:53 <kmc> also sending confidential information in GET requests is sketchy because more things will log URLs than will log POST bodies
00:11:01 <ais523> allowing information to escape into the wild is a side effect
00:12:17 <Sgeo> InfixE (Just (LitE (IntegerL 1))) (VarE GHC.Num.+) (Just (LitE (IntegerL 1)))
00:12:38 <_46bit> kmc, Bike: Taneb's talk is now up :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
00:12:46 <Sgeo> So, no AppE in that function application
00:13:32 <Sgeo> "Template Haskell brackets cannot be nested (without intervening splices)"
00:14:05 <kmc> _46bit: cool
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00:42:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: i see you're at the "soon to leave in disgust for the next language" stage with haskell :P
00:46:48 <Sgeo> I want to write code like this, but the sublanguage that would be defined would.. interact weirdly with laziness. And value is not first-class
00:47:11 <Sgeo> [impure| value [1, 2, 3] + value [4, 5, 6] |]
00:48:04 <Sgeo> The inner language would be Haskell-like, where value in a function application position rewrites the expression with bind and the remainder of the continuation
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00:49:36 <Sgeo> [impure| \x -> value x |] results in some error. If I don't bother with error checking in impure, the compiler may complain about undefined x... I hope
00:49:36 <oerjan> are you reinventing idiom brackets
00:49:39 <elliott> (+) <$> [1,2,3] <*> [4,5,6]
00:49:45 <elliott> (| [1, 2, 3] + [4, 5, 6] |)
00:49:51 <Sgeo> oerjan: reverse idiom brackets, where the impure values are marked
00:50:10 <Sgeo> Seriously, marking the pure ones is silly for monads
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00:50:57 <Bike> more like loin, or something,
00:54:03 <Sgeo> Also let could be abused to imply sequencing
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01:12:43 <fizzie> @tell ais523 "prove, v. II. To make trial of; to try, test. 6. a. /trans/. To put (a person or thing) to the test; to test the genuineness or qualities of; (/Sc/.) to test by tasting, to sample. Now /rare/ in general use (but cf. technical uses at senses 6b, 6f, etc.). b. /trans/. To subject (any natural, prepared, or manufactured substance or object, now esp. a firearm) to a testing process." (OED)
01:13:18 <ais523> fizzie: huh, interesting
01:14:00 <fizzie> (Not that I claim that's the sense of "prove" they were thinking of when writing that message.)
01:14:48 <Bike> like 'proving grounds' i guess
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01:24:30 <oerjan> @ask olsner <olsner> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/aliens-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html <-- does this mean you _cannot_ kill it with fire?
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02:09:36 <oerjan> @ask Taneb WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS
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02:27:52 <Sgeo> The fun part is that in Scala and Scheme, value could certainly be first-class
02:27:55 <Sgeo> But not Haskell
02:39:55 <Sgeo> ....is it possible to have class declarations inside let?
02:40:07 <Sgeo> The types involved in TH don't forbid it
02:40:27 <kmc> you can have fixity declarations inside let/where
02:40:29 <kmc> by accident?
02:40:43 <Sgeo> I guess there is a lot of illegal syntax constructible in TH
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03:28:28 <Sgeo> nasa-revealed.com
03:28:48 <Sgeo> "SORRY!!! TO learn about the origins of the NASA CONSPIRACY you must have a newer browser. Please try upgrading to the AWESOME Internet Explorer TWO POINT OH. Thankx!!"
03:30:45 <Sgeo> <p align="center" blinking="hell yes">
03:34:27 <ion> For a second i thought The Onion really made an effort for http://www.theonion.com/articles/slowwitted-conspiracy-theorist-convinced-governmen,34749/ but that seems to be a fan creation instead.
03:44:36 * Sgeo reads about MFlow
03:45:06 <Sgeo> Continuation-based web framework without the ugly URLs and need to store hard-to-serialize continuations?
03:45:39 <Sgeo> "NOTE2: Since the SOH uses HTTPS, the browser reject the load of third party scripts, such is JQuery, so look at the notes of each example."
03:45:43 <Sgeo> The ... fudge?
03:46:04 <Sgeo> Suddenly I'm not sure this person is competent to write a web framework tutorial
03:48:34 <Bike> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5269634/address-width-from-ram-depth fuck the world
03:49:53 <Sgeo> ....that person is the creator of the web framework in question
03:49:59 <Sgeo> I'm going to go sit down and cry somewhere.
03:50:55 <Bike> isn't "stateful, RESTful web framework" kind of an oxymmoron
03:51:30 <Sgeo> It puts state in its URIs fairly directly.
03:51:38 <Sgeo> http://mflowdemo.herokuapp.com/
03:51:51 <Sgeo> Click Database examples. Then click Database examples again. Then click Database examples again.
03:53:29 <oerjan> @tell Taneb also some parts of that could have needed subtitles hth
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04:10:47 <Bike> i'm growing more and more convinced that nobody actually uses verilog. there's no other explanation
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05:11:25 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 3h 1m 48s ago: WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS
05:11:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 17m 56s ago: also some parts of that could have needed subtitles hth
05:11:48 <Taneb> @tell oerjan all esolangers have too much time. It's an art, you need too much time.
05:12:08 <Taneb> @tell oerjan I think I have precisely the wrong accent for transcribed captions or sanity
05:12:51 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1m 2s ago: all esolangers have too much time. It's an art, you need too much time.
05:12:51 <lambdabot> Taneb said 42s ago: I think I have precisely the wrong accent for transcribed captions or sanity
05:14:34 <oerjan> sanity is not necessary, just diction.
05:14:48 <oerjan> also INTERCAL does too have arrays hth
05:22:26 <Taneb> I knew I was going to make mistakes about INTERCAL
05:22:58 <Taneb> Also I've been messing with Python again (help)
05:23:27 <Taneb> quintopia, my program has behaviour that I do not know the cause of
05:23:38 <Taneb> Possibly because my program is stupid and weird
05:23:58 <quintopia> Taneb: i was going to suggest that maybe it is the program author that is stupid and weird hth
05:24:17 <Taneb> quintopia, the program author is definitely acting stupid and weird
05:24:30 <Taneb> Whether he is actually stupid or weird, nobody knows
05:24:42 <Taneb> Also, I had just missed a break statement
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05:34:42 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czjaNCR0SBA
05:34:53 <Sgeo> No idea what that video si about
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07:07:43 <Bike> why the hell is there such a thing as a lut1 and why are they in this schematic
07:10:04 <Bike> i guess it's for routing. wack, man.
07:10:36 <Bike> it's kind of weird how there's like a billion levels of abstraction and things that don't exist in something that's nominally 'close to metal'.
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07:33:49 <kmc> you think that's air you're breathing now?
07:34:28 <kmc> because it's so easy?
07:35:08 <shachaf> no because breathing it is fun + healthy
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07:35:28 <kmc> health tips from shachaf
07:36:12 <shachaf> what was that story (heinlein?) where the person was complaining about air not being free
07:36:26 <shachaf> apparently it was in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
07:36:40 <shachaf> says http://bastiatscorner.blogspot.com/p/heinlein-quotes.html
07:39:28 <shachaf> kmc: what else is fun + healthy to breathe though
07:41:07 <kmc> isn't it weird how when you're writing prose, the first 20 words take as long as the next 1,000
07:41:10 <kmc> that's how it is for me anyway
07:41:44 <kmc> also it's hard to write anything without becoming demoralized by how terrible it is
07:43:56 <douglass_> though actually I find that staying up for 26-30 hours is best for the writing of prose
07:44:52 <kmc> technical blog post
07:45:03 <kmc> so drunkenness may be unhelpful
07:45:18 <douglass_> yeah, my advice is for humanities papers, not things that have to make sense
07:45:28 <kmc> your standards for the humanities are low
07:45:37 <kmc> because you went to a tech school
07:45:48 <Sgeo> Today in bad Hackage libraries, meet wai-middleware-headers
07:45:49 <Sgeo> "Adds cors support to WAI" = Just shove Allow-Access-Control-Origin: * in front of each response
07:45:50 <douglass_> my high school had decent standards
07:46:01 <Sgeo> https://github.com/seanhess/wai-middleware-headers/blob/master/Network/Wai/Middleware/Headers.hs
07:46:03 <kmc> i read that as "wet-middleware-headers"
07:46:22 <shachaf> are tech schools good should i go to one
07:46:32 <douglass_> and i wrote the hs papers on sleep dep too
07:46:36 <kmc> is there a comprehensive list of HTTP headers, and which ones would be good names for bands
07:46:50 <shachaf> kmc: is there anything which would not be a good name for a band
07:47:17 <kmc> at last year's MIT Mystery Hunt there was a team whose name was the complete text of _Atlas Shrugged_
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07:47:55 <douglass_> ask your doctor if tech schools(TM) are right for you
07:48:15 <kmc> (it turns out that Google Docs does not have a size limit on the text in a cell)
07:48:57 <shachaf> kmc: as my attorney what do you advise
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07:52:09 <kmc> http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Z111.jpg
07:52:42 <shachaf> apathy is good but what should i care about
07:55:18 -!- kmc has set topic: NOTHING IS BEYOND OUR REACH | Although maybe if something else strange is done, it might not? | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
08:03:30 <kmc> `run unicode 'OCTOPUS' 'EARTH GLOBE AMERICAS'
08:04:03 <kmc> combining octopus above
08:04:10 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m
08:06:29 <kmc> Miracle Techno from Planet X
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08:16:04 <FireFly> reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6a4EFa7wK8
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08:27:43 <kmc> shachaf: do you like an octopus
08:30:12 <kmc> "He knew how to outmaneuver them, to outflank them, and to outthink them. He knew full well, many years ago, what today's octopus wrestlers are just beginning to learn—that it is impossible for a man with two arms to apply a full nelson on an octopus; he knew full well the futility of trying for a crotch hold on an opponent with eight crotches."
08:30:40 <olsner> those are all good things to know
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08:45:06 <shachaf> "To skip these instructions, press 4. To hear the list of questions, press 1. Press 7 to press 3. To press 1, press 8. To press 6, press 2. Press 5 to press 7. To hear the answers, press 6. Press 0 to press [star]. To hear the instructions backwards, press 9. Press [star] to press 0. Press 3 if you really want to."
08:46:31 <myname> shachaf: is it transitive?
08:46:48 <myname> i.e. if i press 0, will it cause an endless loop?
08:50:20 <Sgeo_> I guess raising an issue on the project "This entire concept is idiotic and bad" would be a bit rude
08:53:48 <kmc> submit a pull request which removes all every file
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08:57:45 <Sgeo_> I might submit a pull request adding stuff to the README
08:58:08 <Sgeo_> I can see a use-case, I think it would be useful for dropbox (they're doing equivalent I believe)
08:58:25 <Sgeo_> But "adds cors support"... doesn't cut it
08:58:29 <Taneb> I was going to write a compliant Underload interpreter, wasn't I?
09:21:45 <kmc> hm so are computers / languages with limited memory typically equivalent to a finite state machine or to a linear bounded automaton?
09:22:25 <kmc> wikipedia says the latter but I think a LBA has a bound which grows with the length of the input string
09:22:54 <Taneb> I think if the program is inputted on a tape maybe they are linear bounded?
09:23:08 <Taneb> But if the program is internally stored then finite state
09:23:54 <Taneb> I don't know why you are trusting me on this, though
09:26:02 <kmc> the truth is out there
09:26:08 <kmc> i want to believe
09:26:22 * kmc hugs shachaf
09:26:55 <Taneb> Did you two see my esolangs talk?
09:27:04 <kmc> not yet but i will watch it
09:27:14 <shachaf> I didn't know esolangs could talk at all.
09:27:16 <Taneb> (it's not that great)
09:27:28 <Taneb> shachaf, here's a video of them in the act! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
09:27:56 <shachaf> i heard that the video is not that great
09:28:13 <shachaf> also my internet connection is bad
09:28:13 <Taneb> No, it was recorded on one of my friend's laptop
09:28:27 <Taneb> Also I was kind of nervous
09:28:41 <shachaf> i have the feeling my pronunciation of "esoteric" is nonstandard
09:28:46 <shachaf> but i like it too much to check
09:29:01 <Taneb> shachaf, it's more likely mine is, I pronounce a fair few words incorrectly
09:29:30 <shachaf> oh, audience participation
09:29:37 <shachaf> hmm i don't know what a programming language is
09:30:11 <Taneb> Yeah, my pronunciation was wrong throughout
09:30:35 <shachaf> ok i can't watch this, everything is too slow
09:30:50 <shachaf> imo come to california and talk about esolangs here
09:31:33 <Taneb> I would if you played for the flight and the hotel
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09:32:08 <Taneb> The... most dangerous game
09:32:20 <Taneb> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1488
09:33:06 <FireFly> Good talk, but it didn't mention Feather
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09:52:10 * kmc concludes his writing for the evening by inserting "FIXME: this is bullshit"
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10:14:39 <kmc> shachaf: file that in the hug tracker
10:15:20 <shachaf> the nsa is tracking our hugs
10:15:41 <shachaf> imo it's time for untrackable, anonymous hugs
10:16:22 <shachaf> do you know any good zero-knowledge hugs
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10:17:33 <kmc> RSA blind hugs
10:17:36 <kmc> shamir hug sharing
10:21:20 <shachaf> there's some sort of established social norm for how long a hug should be that i wasn't really aware of
10:21:51 <kmc> i think there are many such norms and it's complicated
10:21:52 <shachaf> but kmc goes a little longer than that. it's like a different level of hug
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10:22:29 <shachaf> it's like that diner we went to that advertises that you always get a little extra milk shake in the can
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10:22:52 <kmc> that is a common property of diners
10:22:58 <kmc> but i don't think they make a big deal about it usually
10:23:13 <shachaf> ok kmc is like a diner that doesn't make a big deal about it
10:24:08 <shachaf> anyway perhaps it's only that i'm bad at telling which of the many complicated social norms apply
10:24:22 <kmc> or that i'm bad at following the prevailing norms
10:24:24 <kmc> i just like hugs
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10:25:18 <shachaf> did you know that "macaron" and "macaroon" refer to two completely different cookie-type things
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10:25:48 <kmc> Not to be confused with Macaroon, Macron, McCarron, or Macaroni.
10:28:03 <shachaf> i had some today and they were good
10:28:15 <shachaf> but maybe not too sweet it's hard to say
10:28:36 <shachaf> imo how can hugs be too sweet
10:33:12 <shachaf> also it's independence day
10:33:21 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:33:21 +0200
10:33:38 <kmc> happy finland to us all
10:33:59 <kmc> independence from... sweden? no, russia
10:34:37 <kmc> russia started having a revolution and a civil war and finland was like "see ya"
10:34:56 * kmc visits google.fi
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10:44:57 <int-e> @check \(x, y) -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
10:45:04 <int-e> @check \(x, y) -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
10:45:38 <int-e> @check \(x, y) -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
10:45:39 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 4 tests and 1 shrink):
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10:53:38 <kmc> shachaf: do you have a link to a copy of "Liking What You See"
10:54:20 <kmc> http://www.ibooksonline.com/88/Text/liking.html i guess but it's poorly formatted
10:54:29 <shachaf> i think maybe technically it isn't supposed to be online so sometimes copies disappear
10:54:41 <shachaf> there's -- yes, that one, but the formatting is bad
10:54:51 <shachaf> and also it pops up a "like us on facebook" popup after a few seconds
10:55:17 <kmc> i do have a pdf of the whole book
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11:13:02 <fizzie> It's like past 1pm and I just woke up.
11:13:03 <fizzie> `thanks independence day
11:13:05 <HackEgo> Thanks, independence day. Thindependence day.
11:14:00 <Taneb> fizzie, did you see my esotalk?
11:14:05 <kmc> how does one traditionally celebrate finnish independence day
11:14:54 <fizzie> Taneb: I did not see it.
11:15:14 <Taneb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
11:15:40 <shachaf> kmc: sleeping until like past 1pm
11:15:50 <shachaf> which i guess is finnish for 13
11:16:01 <fizzie> kmc: My wife's family has a tradition of baking christmas gingerbread cookies, but I don't think that's standard.
11:16:23 <fizzie> (Canceled this year due to a cold.)
11:17:14 <fizzie> Also we're going to have that Pallini event I was talking about but that's not standard either.
11:17:33 <kmc> any kind of food / booze / explosions
11:17:54 <shachaf> i ate gingerbread macarons
11:18:17 <fizzie> I think the thing most people do is to watch the Official Party (where all the Important People are invited) on TV.
11:18:40 <shachaf> not all the important people
11:19:17 <Taneb> I was invited but couldn't make it due to presenting an esotalk
11:19:32 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(Finland)#State_festivities
11:19:44 <shachaf> is "beer, burritos, bong hits" another instance of it
11:20:01 <fizzie> Oh, right, also Tuntematon sotilas.
11:20:29 <kmc> liberté = explosions, égalité = food, fraternité = booze?
11:21:30 <kmc> i guess liberté has to be bong hits as well then unless we're willing for things to get confusing
11:22:25 <fizzie> I think we only have the booze component here, but we do that for every possible excuse.
11:22:52 <fizzie> Where "we" refers to Finland in general, this time.
11:23:08 <shachaf> if i lived in finland would i booze
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11:26:40 <fizzie> It's not required, it's only strongly encouraged.
11:26:58 <kmc> & dreams of finnish vodka
11:28:52 <kmc> imo move your independence day to july, then you can do grilling / swimming / drinking of beers in the outdoors / etc
11:29:01 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
11:29:05 <kmc> wise move by the signers of the Declaration of Independence
11:29:32 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: already pbflisted
11:29:43 <shachaf> maybe you should be on the list
11:30:31 <shachaf> if you're not on the list why are you hilighting us
11:32:20 <ion> Should pbflist *do* something?
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11:39:03 <lexande> kmc: they have a midsummer holiday
11:39:15 <lexande> wikipedia says "Rituals include bonfires, cookouts, a sauna and spending time together. Heavy drinking is also associated with the Finnish midsummer."
11:39:23 <lexande> so basically it sounds like they've got that covered
11:39:58 <lexande> (also since when does US independence day involve swimming?)
11:41:27 <fizzie> Taneb: Has anyone followed your #esoteric whiteboardlink?
11:47:45 <ion> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/heman.jpg
11:48:35 <Taneb> fizzie, of the six people in the audience, a couple have already been to #esoteric and I don't think any of the others are here now
11:53:05 <Taneb> fizzie, what did you think of the talk?
11:53:36 <Taneb> ion, doesn't everybody look like that
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12:34:31 <mroman_> Nowadays if you write #esoteric some people probably will go on twitter .
12:34:49 <Taneb> mroman_, I did write #esoteric@irc.freenode.net
12:35:06 <Taneb> All the people there in person were familiar with IRC
12:36:26 <mroman_> Taneb: What was the audience btw?
12:38:01 <Taneb> It was some people from my uni's computer enthusiasts' society
12:42:43 <mroman_> I like your pronunciation of Urban Mueler
12:44:37 <fizzie> Taneb: So far I've only watched the first ten minutes, but, well, actually, I don't really have any comments. Except that you looked kind of more normal than I was expecting from my conception of the Abstract Taneb, but that's not really a comment about the talk itself.
12:45:39 <Taneb> mroman_, how horrendous was it?
12:45:46 <fizzie> Nice choice of related videosin the sidebar, though. ("Brother Panic: Programming Chakras in The Dream World", "PHP Programming Language For Newbies - 11 - PHP Functions", ...)
12:45:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
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12:46:36 <FireFly> I wonder if the surname Miller comes fro Mueller...
12:47:15 <mroman_> It's the kind of profession that has something todo with windmills and corn stuff
12:47:26 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I can't actually tell if that was sarcastic or sincere
12:47:48 <mroman_> Miller = Mueller, Smith = Schmied and so on
12:47:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, elliott_ insists the right way to say it is with a short 'eh' at the start, i think this is stupid & wrong
12:48:25 <mroman_> Taneb: If I wouldn't have already known the name I would have misunderstood it
12:48:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Wiktionary says short e, as does my knowledge of ancient greek
12:48:53 <Taneb> However I must agree that short 'eh' sounds stupid
12:49:18 <Taneb> Although with my pronunciation of finite that may make me somewhat hypocritical
12:49:25 <mroman_> Taneb: but that's ok. Pronouncing foreign names is hard
12:49:29 <fizzie> ("Mylläri" in Finnish.)
12:49:48 <Taneb> fizzie, that looks worryingly Indo-European
12:49:51 <fizzie> (Though not a common surname here, I think.)
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12:52:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, at least xylophone is consistent with most of the other words beginning with hang on I'm complaining about English being inconsistent I'll stop
12:52:46 <fizzie> Taneb: Probably Sweden's fault again; it usually is. (It's "mjölnare" there, I believe.)
12:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> that's exactly my point, we pronounce initial x as z, in greek it was just ks
12:53:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I was going into a rant about how the common pronunciation of finite is awful
12:54:09 <b_jonas> Taneb: pronunciation of finite/infinite in English is crazy
12:54:53 <Taneb> Actually how did I pronounce Mueller
12:55:21 <b_jonas> sign/signal, finite/infinite, cycle/bicycle, number/{all adjectives starting wtih nume}
12:55:22 <fizzie> (Also "xylophone" is spelled "ksylofoni" in Finnish.)
12:59:54 <b_jonas> numerous, numeric, numerical, numeral, numeracy, numerator, numerology, numerate, Numenor,
13:00:02 <b_jonas> there's so many words starting with nume-
13:02:37 <fizzie> That's Númenor, it starts with núme-.
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13:05:26 <mroman_> Taneb: Like mule with an r at the end :)
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13:05:39 <mroman_> and Urban like the english word urban
13:05:52 <Taneb> mroman_, I was going by the yoghurt company
13:06:03 <Taneb> And misremembering that anyway
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13:19:00 <boily> good what-the-fungot-is-eisc morning!
13:19:01 <fungot> boily: i'd rather have a fold up keyboard." says the official documentation
13:19:46 <fizzie> Curious thing to put in the official documentation.
13:20:05 <int-e> good morning morning ruddy
13:20:06 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
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13:37:33 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/dream.png
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13:47:16 <nortti> https://github.com/landondyer/kasm/blob/master/LICENSE
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14:04:57 <mroman_> boily: Are you referring to the esowiki article "EISC"?
14:05:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (i thought it was merely 'funny' before i realised the picture was of mandela)
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14:06:28 <ion> I uploaded it to imgur. http://imgur.com/gallery/Zp71DUL
14:06:32 <boily> nortti: as a professional working in the IT field, I agree.
14:09:37 <nooodl> while we're complaining about Taneb's pronunciation of things istr quine is pronounced queen? but maybe i'm wrong
14:10:41 <nooodl> (where the heck did i pick that up)
14:11:12 <ion> Show must go on
14:13:54 <mroman_> boily: It's an Esoteric Instruction Set Computer
14:14:04 <mroman_> it's only logical that there has to be an EISC.
14:21:12 <mroman_> I'd want a license that when used commercially requires you to donate 1% of earnings with said product to some non-profit organisation not related to the own company
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15:14:23 <metasepia> Your divination: "Infiltrating" to "Limping"
15:14:42 <boily> hm. how can I apply that to ACL in CSV for an ERP?
15:14:56 <Bike> erotic roleplay?
15:15:45 <boily> stuck with undocumented permission lists for models in an Enterprise Resource Planning Platform (namely, OpenERP).
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15:21:35 <boily> @tell oerjan why are you øing the entries?
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15:31:33 <b_jonas> {string(m)[]{"\"",",","\\","{string(m)[]{","};for(int(k):m[5])cout<<m[k-48];}","302001010102201030104010504"};for(int(k):m[5])cout<<m[k-48];}
15:31:42 <b_jonas> do we have a geordi bot on this channel?
15:32:02 <b_jonas> it's a bot that evaluates C++
15:34:50 <boily> `run echo -e '#include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) {\ncout << "Hello, world!" << endl;\nreturn 0;\n}' >bin/a.cpp; g++ a.cpp -o bin/a; bin/a
15:34:55 <HackEgo> g++: a.cpp: No such file or directory \ g++: no input files \ bash: bin/a: No such file or directory
15:34:59 <boily> `run echo -e '#include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) {\ncout << "Hello, world!" << endl;\nreturn 0;\n}' >bin/a.cpp; g++ bin/a.cpp -o bin/a; bin/a
15:35:24 <boily> `run rm bin/a{,.cpp}
15:35:37 <boily> b_jonas: I think we do.
15:36:33 <Taneb> Have any of you seen the King James Programming tumblr/
15:37:10 <Taneb> I know the guy who runs it
15:37:32 <Taneb> What did you think of it?
15:37:54 <boily> I lauged, I smiled, I need to spam my cow orkers with it :D
15:38:29 <b_jonas> boily: nah, then I'd have to port this line to not use the geordi prelude and it would be too long
15:39:13 <b_jonas> not only because of not using the geordi prelude, but because of all that echo '\n and gcc stuff I have to add
15:39:55 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: we could probably add a command to HackEgo to remove the need to call echo & g++ directly
15:42:52 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/bash\ncat >/tmp/in.cpp <<<"$@"; g++ -o /tmp/a.out /tmp/in.cpp; /tmp/a.out' >bin/runcpp
15:43:05 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: or just ask Eelis or someone running a geordi to join it here
15:45:49 <mrhmouse> `runcpp #include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) { cout << "Hello, world!" << endl; return 0; }
15:45:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/runcpp: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/runcpp: cannot execute: Permission denied
15:46:04 <mrhmouse> `runcpp #include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) { cout << "Hello, world!" << endl; return 0; }
15:46:08 <HackEgo> /tmp/in.cpp:1:20: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive \ /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../../lib/crt1.o: In function `_start': \ (.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main' \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status \ /hackenv/bin/runcpp: line 2: /tmp/a.out: No such file or directory
15:46:30 <mrhmouse> FireFly: maybe it's not processing \n as a new line?
15:47:14 <FireFly> You meant in the source code
15:48:07 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/bash\nsed 's/\\n/\n/g' >/tmp/in.cpp <<<"$@"; g++ -o /tmp/a.out /tmp/in.cpp; /tmp/a.out' >bin/runcpp && chmod a+x bin/runcpp
15:48:21 <mrhmouse> `runcpp #include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) { cout << "Hello, world!" << endl; return 0; }
15:48:24 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: unterminated `s' command \ /hackenv/bin/runcpp: line 3: /n/g: No such file or directory \ /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../../lib/crt1.o: In function `_start': \ (.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main' \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status \ /hackenv/bin/runcpp: line 3: /tmp/a.out: No such file or dire
15:49:28 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/bash\nsed s:\\\\n:\\n:g >/tmp/in.cpp <<<"$@"; g++ -o /tmp/a.out /tmp/in.cpp; /tmp/a.out' >bin/runcpp && chmod a+x bin/runcpp
15:49:41 <mrhmouse> `runcpp #include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) { cout << "Hello, world!" << endl; return 0; }
15:49:45 <HackEgo> /tmp/in.cpp:1:20: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive \ /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../../lib/crt1.o: In function `_start': \ (.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main' \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status \ /hackenv/bin/runcpp: line 2: /tmp/a.out: No such file or directory
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15:50:59 <mrhmouse> I'll give it a shot later I suppose
15:51:46 <lambdabot> boily said 30m 10s ago: why are you øing the entries?
15:51:59 <oerjan> boily: i have no idea what you are talking about?
15:52:18 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: steal the geordi prelude too
15:53:15 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: includes lots of headers by default, plus defines a few utility macros and stuff that come useful in an evalbot
15:53:25 <b_jonas> https://github.com/Eelis/geordi/blob/master/prelude/prelude.hpp
15:54:01 <boily> oerjan: you are adding «ø» to entries.
15:54:03 <b_jonas> http://eel.is/geordi/ does tell some things about it
15:54:35 <b_jonas> but I think it would be easier to ask Eelis to join his bot here
15:56:34 <mrhmouse> Actually, I wonder if we can't just have HackEgo ask geordi
15:56:56 <boily> you want to chain multiple bots together?
15:56:58 <mrhmouse> Not that that's any easier. Just out of curiousity.
15:57:12 <oerjan> boily: i cannot on the spot see a single example on the HackEgo repository front page
15:57:45 <boily> oerjan: am I confusing you with someone else?
15:58:09 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN... er, reddit: http://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1s6wce/nelson_mandela_has_passed_away/cduxlj5
15:58:34 <boily> oerjan: oh, yes I am. my mind once again failed to distinguish you from olsner.
15:59:17 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, well, at least the poster had the grace to stand corrected
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15:59:58 <oerjan> `run /bin/ls wisdom | grep '[[:upper:]]'
16:00:00 <HackEgo> EVERYONE \ Ø \ wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
16:00:24 <HackEgo> Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug
16:00:26 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: I did that (chaining bots) once
16:00:33 <oerjan> i think the others are intentional.
16:01:11 <b_jonas> specifically, at one point I hooked jevalbot so the J interpreter can call a foreign function that made my bot ask buubot in private message and return the result to the J script
16:01:40 <b_jonas> it can no longer do that now
16:01:52 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
16:02:08 <oerjan> boily: it's simple, olsner is swedish with a nick that looks danish, while i am norwegian with a nick that looks swedish hth
16:02:24 <b_jonas> `run ls wisdom | tr a-z n-za-m
16:02:25 <HackEgo> Af gur jvfqbz qverpgbel pbagnvaf znal svyrf anzrq nsgre avpxf, yvfgvat vg va choyvp naablf crbcyr. Tel uggcf://qy.qebcobkhfrepbagrag.pbz/h/2023808/jvfqbz.cqs vafgrnq.
16:02:35 * boily hides under his desk. «je suis sain d'esprit. je suis sain d'esprit. je suis sain d'esprit.»
16:02:44 <b_jonas> `run echo wisdom/* | tr a-z n-za-m
16:02:46 <HackEgo> jvfqbz/` jvfqbz/`? jvfqbz/ jvfqbz/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ jvfqbz/? jvfqbz/?? jvfqbz/@ jvfqbz/\ jvfqbz/☃ jvfqbz/⌨ jvfqbz/⊥ jvfqbz/🐐 jvfqbz/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̚̚
16:04:06 <boily> 11am is a nice time to wake up.
16:04:30 <oerjan> apparently the olsner family comes from: germany, preussen, and luchtenbugel. source: http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=olsner
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16:09:33 <oerjan> boily: i also just woke up hth
16:09:55 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Dec 6 17:09:55 2013
16:10:04 <quintopia> oerjan: is it the freakin' weekend baby?
16:10:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:10:18 <oerjan> let's see if we can get rid of boily's sanity already.
16:10:36 <oerjan> quintopia: well that too.
16:11:32 * boily senses a disturbance in the Sanity...
16:13:51 <oerjan> it's the time of accelerated mass...
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16:14:27 <quintopia> it's the time of change in momentum...
16:15:51 <oerjan> it's working across the distance...
16:16:40 * boily fiercely wields his mapole.
16:19:30 <oerjan> boily: resistance is fu^Wpotential divided by current
16:22:26 <quintopia> today is independence day? finland has gone mad? halp
16:24:08 <oerjan> it's that time of the year again when they eat mämmi and shoot down aliens
16:25:10 <quintopia> ah but they are calmed down now apparently
16:27:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the lack of evidence is because obama covered it up duh
16:31:26 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ try: \ print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ print u'Unknown character.'
16:32:36 <oerjan> `run unicode 'LATIN SMALL LETTER H' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER M'
16:33:14 <HackEgo> [U+7CBF CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-7CBF] [U+689D CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-689D]
16:33:38 <boily> meh. not even nciku can define 粿.
16:35:13 <oerjan> google translate says "Cake" hth
16:38:41 <boily> “cooked rice for making cake”. not quite not quite related to what 粿條 means (kuy teav, or hủ tiếu), which is a kind of soup.
16:40:40 <oerjan> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_kway_teow#Etymology
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16:47:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: xyzzy: not found
16:51:17 <boily> `run echo 'A hollow voice says "Plugh"' >wisdom/plugh
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16:54:31 <boily> ruddy: are you magic?
16:54:41 <boily> I am magic. I am also sane.
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16:54:58 <mroman_> What instructions/features should a CPU have to support certain more or less often used algorithms?
16:55:13 <mroman_> Like reversing bits for fast fourier transforms
16:55:36 <Slereah_> Depends on what you want it to do I guess?
16:56:20 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
16:56:22 <mroman_> There are instructions which are *important* for certain algorithms to work or make the efficient
16:56:30 <fungot> FireFly: hi fnord :) and then this one from a dostoyevsky novel. do you have an example of something that's infinite. :p though i guess they have an annoying registering system here, if that code would suddenly produce " 21" monitor
16:56:30 <ruddy> are you FireFly FireFly
16:56:36 <mroman_> like having cmpxchg supporting quadwords on 32bit machines
16:56:48 <mroman_> which allows tagged pointers which are required for certain lock free algorithms
16:57:14 <Slereah_> Well yes but which algorithms do you want!
16:57:27 <Slereah_> I mean, some are pretty commonly used functions I guess
16:57:46 <b_jonas> mroman_: or just cmpxchg in first place which you need to implement smp locks
16:58:18 <b_jonas> no, you need cmpxchg for lock-free atomic values, not locks
16:58:34 <mroman_> test and set should be enough for locks I guess
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17:03:23 <mrhmouse> what the..? ruddy, why did you ping out?
17:03:24 <ruddy> dummy provides: eval choose dummy
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17:10:55 <impomatic> mov cx,0 / xchg cx, word[LOCK] / jcxz LOCKED is sufficient, where 0 = locked, non-zero = unlocked
17:13:56 <ruddy> quintopia! quintopia!
17:14:05 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:15:18 <mrhmouse> quintopia: not sure if having ruddy say that is worth much if its in the ignore list :P
17:15:59 <quintopia> mrhmouse: it could be better, yeah
17:22:42 <FireFly> Look, even ruddy itself agrees
17:22:43 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:22:56 <FireFly> Yeah, I think it's better if it stays silent
17:23:00 <ruddy> No clue what you mean. What do you think, fungot?
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17:24:20 <Taneb> ruddy, do you read Homestuck?
17:24:21 <ruddy> @list read didn't read your 11:42
17:24:37 <Taneb> fungot, do YOU read Homestuck?
17:24:37 <fungot> Taneb: thread-sleep! by way of optimization, but it's something weird
17:24:51 <Taneb> Well, Homestuck is pretty much always doing something weird
17:24:53 <FireFly> I think that's a fungot 'yes'
17:24:53 <fungot> FireFly: will someone please echo the character at fnord to start nyx?? if so, what are they trying to say
17:25:12 <FireFly> fungot: how should I know what they're trying to say?!
17:25:13 <fungot> FireFly: whatcha writing? c in bf? if so, i might add. now i'm sweating like a mule in sunny and humid florida.
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17:29:07 <quintopia> mrhmouse: here's a better idea. make it so ruddy always has something to say.
17:29:17 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:29:38 <mrhmouse> quintopia: ruddy is a big hack, though. I probably won't do any more work on it.
17:29:48 <mrhmouse> I might make a replacement, though.
17:30:55 <mrhmouse> ruddy: you hear that? they want to delete you.
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17:32:17 <FireFly> ruddy: are you saying that you're in favor of that?
17:32:34 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:32:55 <quintopia> you'd think it'd at least say "hth" there
17:33:20 <quintopia> mrhmouse: when someone says thank you
17:33:38 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:34:12 <mrhmouse> Apparently we don't thank people enough for it to have a suitable response? It's also possible that it managed to skip all of the words while building a message.
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17:48:02 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
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17:53:40 <mrhmouse> ruddy, I hope your sass survives in your next iteration.
17:53:42 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:55:00 <quintopia> mrhmouse: it would have been fine if it didn't fail to come up with anything so damn often
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17:56:33 <mrhmouse> quintopia: that's mostly due to how it munges messages, which is just by throwing away random parts from several messages and then combining them
17:56:47 <mrhmouse> sometimes it just happens to throw everything out.. I'll fix that for the next one
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17:58:36 <FireFly> mrhmouse: my similar bot goes with the most unique word in the line that it could actually build a reply out of
18:00:42 <mrhmouse> FireFly: ruddy works in a similar way. It gets a list of the most similar messages in its history, giving more weight to uncommon words and shorter messages
18:00:50 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
18:01:03 <mrhmouse> alright, ruddy, that's annoying. I'm fixing you.
18:01:04 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
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18:08:04 <mrhmouse> ruddy: are you done being annoying?
18:08:05 <ruddy> consider and boing.. you're done
18:09:44 <mroman_> I hate it when professors think I misunderstood something and therefore don't bother to answer my actual question
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18:15:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Hi: not found
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18:18:29 <quintopia> mrhmouse: did you make it start over and try again when it fails to make a message? (with a timeout of course)
18:19:05 <FireFly> ruddy: make messages, not war
18:19:06 <ruddy> one of those lend-lease because replies are based off of the order of messages, and i'm
18:19:25 <mrhmouse> quintopia: without a timeout, but yes.
18:20:15 <quintopia> mrhmouse: what if it always fails because not enough data? infinite loop!
18:22:42 <ruddy> No clue what you mean. What do you think, fungot?
18:23:05 <mrhmouse> it has to have data before it starts munging. I put the loop in the munging logic
18:23:50 <quintopia> ruddy: ruddy ruddy ruddy ruddy ruddy
18:23:51 <ruddy> quintopia quintopia
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18:47:01 <mrhmouse> are there any stack-syntax esolangs that operate on a stack of values (primitives or other stacks) and allow word definition?
18:52:33 <FireFly> mrhmouse: Forth? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forth
18:54:09 <mrhmouse> FireFly: I don't know that I'd consider Forth an esolang
18:56:41 <FireFly> Well it has an esolang article
18:57:16 <FireFly> As does Perl, which I guess supports the theory that it's an esolang
18:57:29 <kmc> what about C++
18:57:38 <boily> fungot: how do you measure a languages esotlanguishness?
18:57:38 <fungot> boily: in sicp, like the multi-core systems that are capable of making a language about kitty pidgin. weirder things have happened
18:57:59 <boily> fungot: you're telling me that weirder things than kitty pidgins happened?
18:57:59 <fungot> boily: ( impossible? oh well... bye, and thanks
18:58:04 <boily> fungot: you tease.
18:58:05 <fungot> boily: i forgot the little lojban i know :( just asked for some " research". :p probably sells well.
18:58:24 <mrhmouse> fungot: is "research" a euphemism for something?
18:58:24 <fungot> mrhmouse: try ' cat /etc/ passwd" read)), a+4n b+3n c+2n d+n e
19:08:15 * boily fantasizes on finding a non-transitive loop in the wiki, where language A is more esoteric than B, which is more esoteric than C, and the latter being esotericer than A...
19:13:23 <boily> @tell Taneb the KJV/Markov mashup was mainstreamed by Boingboing → http://boingboing.net/2013/12/06/king-james-programming-markov.html
19:16:54 <nooodl> mrhmouse: re: stack-syntax esolangs etc.: golfscript
19:17:41 <nooodl> which is basically a forth clone with a bunch of handy FP-esque built-ins. like % is map and * is fold
19:18:27 <FireFly> but that doesn't have word defining, which I think mrhmouse asked for
19:20:10 <nooodl> it has word defining to the point where you can redefine the value of 0
19:21:28 <quintopia> mrhmouse: yes. there is. but unfortunately, there is not one called "Stacks on Stacks on Stacks" but there should be
19:22:24 <FireFly> Would that operate on a stack stack stack, akin to befunge's stack stack?
19:23:04 <quintopia> FireFly: I BET IT WOULD HAVE A STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK ...
19:23:23 <boily> the Stack functor fixed point?
19:23:46 * boily grasps the air as his sanity flutters away “noooo! come back, precious sanity!”
19:28:45 <ion> Cannibalism http://i.imgur.com/9t19cZN.jpg
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19:46:00 <ion> :-D http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/210622/walmart-is-selling-prints-of-banksys-destroy-capitalism/
19:48:19 <kmc> "Graffiti artist Eddie Colla’s print, with the very ironic words “If you want to achieve greatness stop asking for permission,” is on the site and labeled as a Banksy piece, as is Thierry Guetta’s 2008 “Life is Beautiful” piece."
19:48:27 <kmc> who here has seen _Exit Through the Gift Shop_
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19:54:35 <shachaf> 11:54 <mauke> yeah, I like to write in the common subset of haskell, c, perl, python, ruby, and tcl
19:54:38 <shachaf> 11:54 <mauke> other people like to write in the common subset of c and c++
19:54:41 <shachaf> 11:54 <mauke> they're weird
19:55:16 <^v> `ReLcOmE ^v
19:55:19 <HackEgo> ^v: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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20:25:45 <shachaf> ion: Email didn't work either?
20:28:06 <ion> shachaf: Didn’t get around to emailing him yet. I thought i’d try on #ghc since he’s there and what i was going to talk to him about was GHC-related.
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20:48:11 <Bike> `unicode FEMALE REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM DRAWN BY SENILE OLD SEX ED TEACHER
20:50:32 <mrhmouse> Bike: congratulations, people are now staring at me because I'm snickering for no observable reason.
20:51:39 <FireFly> mrhmouse: that's me when reading fungot responses
20:51:39 <fungot> FireFly: but it's all explained in the thread, only some days on random, so i would assume it works. i'm removing a feature no one knows even exists. would you like an extended abi
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20:52:04 <mrhmouse> fungot: what feature are you removing?
20:52:05 <fungot> mrhmouse: i've gone through all the quotes. there are a few intermediate level papers on readscheme... did anyone ever build one of those ruby guys, wrote a slight variant of, which is really much simpler just to never leave the repl" but that isn't much
20:52:57 <mrhmouse> FireFly: yeah, sometimes there's too much babble to be funny. That was why I /joined ruddy - to be slightly less random
20:52:57 <boily> fungot: don't touch my PDF, you nefarious quote reader you.
20:52:58 <fungot> boily: called lisp? heh. but you're talking about the meaning of
20:53:02 <ruddy> funny. egbert9e9, (mrhmouse is another random internet page
20:53:33 <Bike> `unicode FUNGOT EXPLAINING EXTENSIBLE SCHEME PARSING TO SOMEBODY EATING POULET
20:53:49 <FireFly> fungot's responses have a tendency to sometimes be hilariously inappropriate though, which ruddy's doesn't :(
20:53:49 <fungot> FireFly: where is your source?" lolcode is popular because vb is hard to write
20:53:52 <ruddy> that's me when reading FireFly responses
20:53:55 <shachaf> fungot: do you like monoids
20:53:56 <fungot> shachaf: hang on nerd joke? are there no scheme irc libs or whatnot
20:54:10 <shachaf> ruddy: do you like monoids?
20:54:11 <ruddy> do you like bugs?
20:54:20 <kmc> ruddy: do you like nerd jokes?
20:54:21 <ruddy> hang on nerd joke? are there no scheme irc libs or whatnot 871) <kmc> i don't even know anything about feather
20:54:24 <shachaf> i like bugs / i like bugs / i like bugs / i like bugs
20:54:28 <FireFly> shachaf: fungot saw through your question
20:54:29 <fungot> FireFly: then i fnord at my expense of being practical!" things?
20:54:32 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1nsOKBgmOs
20:55:03 <mrhmouse> ruddy: at least give it a while before quoting other bots..
20:55:26 <mrhmouse> ruddy: at least fifteen minutes, please.
20:55:27 <ruddy> please. i pride myself on my low algorithmic randomness i've been here for fifteen seconds. don't be an ass.
20:55:32 <Bike> hey, that was a bike quote, not a kmc quote! i demand restitution
20:55:49 <FireFly> ruddy: that doesn't look random at all
20:55:50 <ruddy> especially the random i assumed it was some
20:55:58 <Bike> ruddy you monster
20:56:13 <mrhmouse> ruddy: a what? he's only a what?
20:56:24 <ruddy> a boring fungus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cliona_viridis
20:57:22 <ruddy> that's numberwang! that's irrelevant
20:57:42 <Bike> why are all of the bots here so terrible at taxonomy ;_;
20:57:44 <boily> the bots. they are very sentient.
20:58:06 <mrhmouse> Bike: because we're the ones teaching them, I suppose
20:58:10 <boily> Bike: they are demonstrating solidarity and brotherhood towards each other.
20:59:26 <FireFly> fungot: funges ought to be your territory
20:59:27 <fungot> FireFly: in lowercase i assume for unixy :p. but the windows world that does cr/ lf" char?
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21:02:44 <boily> fungot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laetiporus_sulphureus
21:02:45 <fungot> boily: kotisivu.mtv3.fi/ quux if they don't mention the drivers or linux support or such?
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21:07:57 <kmc> shachaf: rust is losing the generic "do" sugar
21:09:56 <mrhmouse> kmc: link to the announcement?
21:11:34 <kmc> i don't have a link offhand
21:11:38 <kmc> it may have already happened, even
21:12:33 <kmc> the issue is that there are multiple kinds of closures, e.g. stack closures and uniquely-owned heap closures
21:13:15 <kmc> and we used to infer from a lambda which kind it is, but no longer (for some reason)
21:13:34 <kmc> so "do" (which is a form of lambda) will only create the uniquely-owned heap closures
21:14:00 <kmc> also those can be called once only, which means the body is allowed to move out of captured variables
21:15:55 <boily> rust: the language with out-of-body closure experience!
21:20:47 <shachaf> kmc: which sugar was that again
21:21:41 <kmc> do f(x,y) |z| { ... } ⇒ f(x, y, |z| { ... })
21:21:48 <kmc> where |z| { ... } is a lambda
21:22:12 <kmc> also if there are no arguments to f or no parameters in the lambda then "do" lets you leave off the list entirely
21:22:17 <kmc> e.g. do spawn { ... thread body ... }
21:22:29 <kmc> ⇒ spawn(|| { ... thread body ...})
21:24:47 <kmc> and i suppose it is
21:25:05 <kmc> but w/o the thing where 'return' in the body causes the enclosing function to return
21:25:10 <kmc> (instead it's just not allowed :/)
21:25:50 <kmc> there used to be a related sugar 'for' which would let you use 'break' and 'continue' and these things would make the closure return true or false
21:26:25 <kmc> so that a for-each function could implement the desired loop control
21:26:28 <kmc> that all got scrapped months ago
21:26:50 <kmc> now 'for' is a sugar for calling .next() repeatedly on an iterator object like any boring old language
21:27:31 <lambdabot> `T.for' (imported from Data.Traversable),
21:27:35 <lambdabot> Monad m => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m [b]
21:28:51 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t) => t a -> (a -> f b) -> f (t b)
21:29:20 <shachaf> kmc: ruby has two different kinds of lambda thingies, with two different behaviors for return
21:29:27 <shachaf> lambda { ... } and proc { ... }
21:29:45 <shachaf> i should make a ruby thing that uses continuations to implement the "return"
21:29:52 <shachaf> so that it works even when you return the proc/lambda
21:30:22 <shachaf> kmc: weren't they going to change it to return Just x/Nothing instead of True/False
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21:35:49 <shachaf> i guess i was unclear but you know what i mean
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21:54:26 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, that's mooz's befunge site, I think that link is dead.
21:54:26 <fungot> fizzie: this is unix without a nice gui would use native widgets. but i have done
21:54:56 <shachaf> this is unix without a nice gui
21:55:34 <shachaf> fungot: what's the best thing
21:55:34 <fungot> shachaf: for call/ cc call/ cc, and has been commented on extensively elsewhere... yes.... one is the lhs the other one
21:56:20 <fizzie> call/cc call/cc: the best thing.
21:56:38 <shachaf> ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))
21:56:43 <fizzie> (Also we had some of that "my balls" thing, I'm not entirely sober.)
21:56:44 <ion> (cc call/)
21:57:08 <fungot> shachaf: kaxul reads in xml, e.g. for port operations. linear-update operations may be destructive, but you can play with car and cdr
21:57:21 <ion> aww http://call.cc/
21:57:24 <fungot> shachaf: and i wouldn't say that. you prefer for/ let keywords and just put the function variable at the front
21:57:36 <fizzie> ion: It "may" be for sale.
21:58:01 <ion> Yeah, by the extortionists
21:59:21 <fizzie> "Welcome To The Domain CALL.CC This domain is under construction. Please check back at a later date for updates, or to get more information about the domain, you may email the registrant using the link below."
21:59:27 <fizzie> That's what was there in 2003/2004.
22:00:04 <fizzie> I had the vaguest notion that there actually was a Scheme site with that kind of address, but perhaps I'm just thinking of call-cc.org, the home of CHICKEN.
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22:29:27 <Taneb> Aaaah I think I've started a new Haskell Compiler Project
22:30:08 <Taneb> On the basis that we're at York
22:30:19 <Taneb> And there's already been a York Haskell Compiler
22:30:27 <Taneb> We're calling it the New York Haskell Compiler
22:30:35 <Taneb> int-e, fun and education, mainly
22:31:01 <int-e> the next one will be yayhc?
22:31:16 * ion forks yhc and calls it Fork Haskell Compiler
22:31:43 <Taneb> ion, you do not want to, the build system is a 10000 line python script for some bizarre reason
22:31:49 <Taneb> We're starting from scratch
22:32:13 <ion> Please tell me it’s 10k lines of generated code.
22:33:27 <int-e> d o e s t y p i n g q u a l i f y a s g e n e r a t i o n o f t e x t?
22:33:27 <Taneb> Development stopped when the one guy who was any good at Python left
22:35:02 <int-e> `run echo 'Semi-automatic text generation.' > wisdom/science
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22:38:22 <int-e> oh yuck, sconscript.
22:38:35 <ion> #haskell: “<South> Is anyone here really familiar with Pipes?” I wanted to say kmc.
22:38:36 <int-e> (I just remembered that I have seen that before.)
22:39:37 * kmc rolls eyes
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23:03:27 <shachaf> kmc: is the "kmc drugz" thing getting old
23:04:06 <oerjan> it was old before you were born
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23:10:51 <shachaf> oerjan: you were old before i was born :'(
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23:25:08 <kmc> shachaf: just a little
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23:29:51 <olsner> how old is oerjan compared to shachaf? or how young is shachaf?
23:29:55 <kmc> attending a talk on compiler-based software diversification, i.e. generating a different binary for every user so that it's hard to write an exploit which works for all of them
23:30:03 <zzo38> Do you understand this one yet?
23:30:21 <shachaf> kmc: that's like how some jits randomly insert nops and so on?
23:30:25 <kmc> which is a cool idea
23:30:30 <kmc> also a p. #esoteric idea
23:30:35 <kmc> shachaf: i don't know about that
23:31:13 <olsner> hmm, an esolang that ends up slightly different for every user, that's something
23:31:40 <zzo38> I would think randomly inserting NOPs might slow it down or make too large file, but rearranging basic blocks might be OK in some circumstances, and rearranging global variables, functions, and so on, can also work.
23:31:52 <shachaf> kmc: e.g. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=595034
23:31:59 <shachaf> can't find a good reference but i read about it somewhere
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23:32:26 <shachaf> to make the "jit spraying" thing more difficult
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23:33:19 <kmc> ah, because a NOP will re-synchronize the instruction framing
23:33:26 <kmc> or enough NOPs will
23:35:14 <oerjan> zzo38: that link discussion mentioned the impact being negligible for nops about every 64 bytes
23:35:48 <kmc> which gives you, what, about 32 bytes worth of exploit code
23:35:54 <kmc> w/ small instructions only
23:35:59 <kmc> still might be enuf though
23:36:07 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 5h 12m 17s ago: I think I am turning into you. I feel like I'm going to write a web browser... somebody stop me! o_o
23:36:09 <shachaf> or https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=677272
23:36:46 <kmc> hm, NaCl does something similar for a different reason
23:36:52 <kmc> no instruction can span a 32-byte boundary
23:37:07 <shachaf> that sounds more predictable
23:37:26 <kmc> and indirect jumps/calls must be preceded by a masking instruction which aligns to a 32-byte boundary
23:38:05 <kmc> but I don't think that helps (or intends to help) against using NaCl to infiltrate a payload which you enter using a separate control flow hijack vuln
23:39:05 <shachaf> but this seems similar to the thing your talk is about
23:41:01 <kmc> i wonder if people will eventually focus more and more on exploits which don't redirect control flow at all
23:41:04 <kmc> i saw a paper about those
23:41:05 <kmc> maybe from you
23:41:55 <olsner> it might be nice to just disable all exploits
23:45:58 <kmc> this one i think: http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/73104/usenix05data_attack.pdf
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23:51:17 <oerjan> <ion> I uploaded it to imgur. http://imgur.com/gallery/Zp71DUL <-- good work with the -8 points, also i think that meme which i've noticed at least once before is already old.
23:51:30 <Halite> I have an idea for a new programming language [seriously this time].
23:52:09 <Bike> better than that fake hilton tweet, i guess
23:52:11 <ion> Breaking news: meme seen to exist more than once
23:52:12 <oerjan> it is about how to program with irc join/quits
23:52:33 <Halite> A script could be a finite state machine
23:52:45 <oerjan> ion: some memes feel old the second time you see them, i think this may be one.
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23:53:19 <oerjan> or maybe it's just me who is old.
23:54:02 <Halite> youth think 50 is an old age. Elderly think 100 is an old age.
23:54:03 <oerjan> Halite: then you all are.
23:54:33 <kmc> the person giving the talk is http://www.michaelfranz.com/
23:55:12 <kmc> shachaf: another cool idea is, you do profile-directed optimization and you do less randomization of code within hot loops
23:55:55 <shachaf> hm i guess this is unlike the jit thing in that the attacker doesn't supply the code
23:55:59 <oerjan> <Halite> A script could be a finite state machine <-- that's also rather hard to call new.
23:56:15 <kmc> idea being that ROP exploits need gadgets from all over the code, so you can disrupt them by only messing with cold paths
23:57:12 <oerjan> add a tape, and you have a turing machine, one of the oldest computation models there are
23:58:31 <kmc> shachaf: imo rust should do this inside unsafe { ... } blocks
00:00:03 <olsner> oerjan: hmm, I think you sent me a message earlier... I may have intended to answer
00:00:41 <olsner> maybe it was not important?
00:00:55 <shachaf> kmc: what if you want rust not to do it
00:01:04 <shachaf> imo doubleplusunsafe { ... }
00:02:06 <oerjan> `pastelogs oerjan> @.* olsner
00:02:41 <kmc> danger(10000) { ... }
00:02:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32727
00:04:13 <olsner> oerjan: ah! then I would guess "yes"
00:04:20 <kmc> pwned boxes
00:04:46 <olsner> though I'm not sure how much asbestos contamination does to fireproof a spider
00:05:02 <oerjan> olsner: we are all doomed hth
00:07:36 <olsner> oerjan: hopefully only wales is doomed hth
00:08:11 <oerjan> hm well as long as they cannot swim
00:08:34 <olsner> p. sure wales can swim
00:10:29 <oerjan> it's hard to argue with a pun based on a misspelling.
00:15:59 <kmc> but if they wash up on the beach they're property of the queen
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00:21:26 <oerjan> kmc: so that's how england got wales in the first place?
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00:22:15 <oerjan> thx it all makes sense now
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00:58:38 <kmc> ruddy: are you enjoying finnish independence day
00:58:39 <ruddy> because i'm `thanks independence day also it's independence day
00:58:46 <kmc> ruddy: have you declared yourself independent from finland
00:58:47 <ruddy> i think that is true independent of number of cells
00:58:55 <ruddy> No clue what you mean. What do you think, fungot?
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01:07:07 <nooodl> `thanks independence day also it's independence day
01:07:09 <HackEgo> Thanks, independence day also it's independence day. Thindependence day also it's independence day.
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01:19:46 <coppro> why is there no dramatic reading of the call of cthulhu for beginning readers on the internet
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01:21:56 <oerjan> coppro: they keep mysteriously disappearing together with the readers
01:22:42 <coppro> oerjan: but I can find the *regular* version fine
01:22:46 <coppro> I just want the seussized one
01:24:11 <oerjan> coppro: just read through the iwc christmas comics hth http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/archive.html
01:25:18 <int-e> One cthulhu, two cthulhu, red cthulhu, blue cthulhu.
01:26:12 <zzo38> The reason must be that dramatic readers who like to post stuff on internet don't like that book or do not know how to read it for some reason. Either that or they are hiding it.
01:27:04 <shachaf> happy independence day, nooodl
01:27:28 <nooodl> sinterklaas "basically that"
01:27:57 <oerjan> sinterklaas = basically cthulhu
01:34:04 <HackEgo> Semi-automatic text generation.
01:34:15 <oerjan> oh come on, that doesn't even backronym.
01:34:31 <zzo38> I notice that too.
01:35:07 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
01:35:12 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
01:35:17 <ruddy> `? shachaf `? shachaf
01:35:18 <ruddy> HackEgo? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:35:34 <ruddy> eille! no violence against my peaceful bot!
01:35:47 <shachaf> ruddy: today is the day i am going to sleep
01:35:59 <shachaf> ruddy: you gotta do what you gotta do
01:36:54 <oerjan> `run echo "HackEgo? ¯\(°_o)/¯" >wisdom/ruddy
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01:41:25 <oerjan> * int-e blames lambdabot <-- ok how did lambdabot get you here
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01:44:18 <int-e> oerjan: I looked at the list of channels that it joins automatically
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01:51:23 <oerjan> Zuu_: fix your connection thx
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01:53:18 <Zuu> oerjan: tis fine, i was just configuring something :/
01:53:47 <Bike> is there some canonical algorithm for assigning binary codes to each node of a state diagram
01:54:16 <oerjan> Bike: it's called "counting" hth
01:54:51 <Bike> i mean, that minimizes the logic
01:55:57 <Bike> like in a circuit implementing the state diagram.
01:56:10 <Bike> minimizing hamming distance between connected nodes for instance
01:56:14 <oerjan> there's an algorithm for minimizing the number of states iirc
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01:56:24 <Bike> not what i mean
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01:57:53 <oerjan> enough that i expect the answer is "no"
01:58:30 <Bike> well there are multiple constraints you could optimize for, like size of the state
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01:59:01 <oerjan> yes, but it sounds like something NP-complete or worse.
01:59:29 <oerjan> so whatever algorithm you find won't be "canonical".
01:59:43 <int-e> size of state is easy, but I expect that often you'll want to use more bits than are strictly required, to encode some features of states.
01:59:47 <oerjan> unless it happens to be for surprising reasons.
01:59:58 <int-e> --> it's a hard problem.
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02:04:13 <Bike> i'm wondering this because my homework gave constraining hamming distance to one as a rule of thumb but also said it was usually impossible
02:04:16 <Bike> ~engineering~ i guess
02:04:16 <int-e> (a nice example of such features comes up when your automaton is the result of a powerset construction; it may be better to implement the nondeterministic automaton and use one bit per original state)
02:04:39 <Bike> What's a powerset construction.
02:05:03 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerset_construction
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02:21:53 <zzo38> In a 6502 code, if I have the accumulator being zero, what is an efficient way to make the zero flag cleared if some value in the zero-page is zero, and set if it is nonzero?
02:26:04 <Bike> what instructions alter the zero flag again
02:27:21 <fizzie> Loads, transfers, arithmetic.
02:28:27 <zzo38> ADC, AND, ASL, BIT, CMP, CPX, CPY, DEC, DEX, DEY, EOR, INC, INX, INY, LDA, LDX, LDY, LSR, ORA, PLP, ROL, ROR, SBC, TAX, TAY, TSX, TXA, TXS, TYA.
02:29:30 <oerjan> obviously LDA whatever gives the opposite flag setting of what you want
02:29:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I can see that
02:31:09 <Bike> has everyone used the 6502...
02:31:24 <Bike> anyway i have no idea.
02:31:52 <oerjan> way back. although the manual for the assembly was missing instructions...
02:32:17 <zzo38> I wonder if just pushing the flags onto the stack and then testing the zero flag with BIT or AND, would be best way.
02:32:25 <fizzie> oerjan: The opposite of PHP.
02:32:31 <zzo38> oerjan: PLP is pop flags from stack
02:35:24 <Bike> hey zzo38, i'm planning on making some CPUs with my FPGA. do you have any fun ISAs to recommend
02:36:08 <Bike> i guess that would make sense
02:36:32 <Bike> though i don't remember anything about it other than that it drops the crazy decimal stuff and has a zillion registers.
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02:39:44 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, MMIX is one possibility; GCC supports it, even.
02:40:14 <Bike> i'm not actually sure how i should go about getting code onto the thing, there's no serial port. guess i'll have to get another cable and figure out uart
02:41:12 <zzo38> You can also try 6502 if you want to program it in assembly language (and if it is the variant used in the Famicom, then there is no decimal arithmetic either)
02:42:07 <Bike> any more esoteric ideas?
02:42:29 <Bike> i was thinking of trying imlementing the processor from 'lambda the ultimate opcode'. no alu
02:55:37 <Bike> apparently there was an asynchronous RISC called "AMULET", i'm thinking of finding some specs
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03:30:09 <kmc> <kmc> I guess to formalize a statement like "C is Turing complete" you would talk about a family of languages C_i where sizeof(void *) = i, and require that the languages have a uniform description
03:30:13 <kmc> so I think that doesn't work
03:30:39 <kmc> because any given TM (that you would try to implement in C_i for some i) can take arbitrarily large inputs and use arbitrarily much tape, even a vastly more than superexponential function of the input length
03:31:26 <Bike> intptr_t rather puts a damper on things, eh
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03:32:10 <zzo38> What if a "char" cell can contain an arbitrary integer, and it is C89 rather than C99?
03:32:28 <Bike> can you have a C where malloc never fails and just keeps giving you new pointers
03:33:30 <kmc> zzo38: what's the relevant difference between C89 and C99?
03:34:14 <zzo38> kmc: I think C99 defines a lot of stuff that tells you how many bits everything is, isn't it?
03:34:45 <Bike> c89 doesn't have char_bit?
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04:46:02 <zzo38> Is there an editor for 6502 assembly language files (even if the file includes macros and other stuff) that will also display the generated hex codes and the bytes and cycles of each line, and the bytes and cycles of any highlighted block, and the addresses, etc?
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05:08:47 <Sgeo> http://slashdot.org/story/13/11/06/1323223/mozilla-backtracks-on-third-party-cookie-blocking
05:08:54 <Sgeo> Said as though third-party cookies are evil
05:11:13 <Bike> i think i would be happier if i hung out in a channel where when people said stuff like that they were talking about politics or such
05:11:39 <Sgeo> I have legitimate use cases for third-party cookies :/
05:11:51 <Sgeo> (non-advertising uses, I mean)
05:12:01 <Bike> i have legitimate use cases for mah diiiiick
05:15:19 <Sgeo> http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/
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06:12:43 <zzo38> Did you see what Famicom Z-machine programming I have made up so far? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Famicom_Z-machine
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06:14:15 <Bike> kmc: i don't know this notation. does it mean that you as well have legitimate use cases for mah dick
06:15:10 <kmc> it means "high five"
06:15:15 <kmc> so, kinda?
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06:17:34 <kmc> diiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiickdiiiiick
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06:18:18 <quintopia> zzo38: why did you choose famicom as the machine you want to develop this for
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06:23:40 <zzo38> quintopia: It is one computer that doesn't have Z-machine interpreter on it, is one reason.
06:24:01 <quintopia> zzo38: you think every computer should be able to interpret Z-machine?
06:25:40 <quintopia> @tell ais523 it looks like James Parsons has decided not to make a FLARP! language, you should delete the page.
06:26:54 <zzo38> quintopia: It may be intended. Infocom didn't do it since Famicom is by Nintendo of Japanese, but now other people can make it too. Also, to practice to write such programs.
06:27:42 <quintopia> zzo38: what other kinds of programs like that do you plan on writing in the future
06:28:50 <zzo38> quintopia: I am not exactly sure by now.
06:29:06 <zzo38> Did you find any mistakes in this program or any other comment/questions?
06:35:59 <quintopia> i don't have the assembler or the emulator or test programs. in short, i am a poor alpha tester. sorry.
06:36:41 <zzo38> It isn't complete enough for testing the program; I mean if you noticed anything wrong with the program just by looking at it.
06:38:12 <quintopia> i'm not smart enough to do that either
06:40:10 <zzo38> Do you know anything about Z-machine programming, Famicom programming, and/or 6502 programming?
06:40:47 <quintopia> you've found yourself a very esoteric niche
06:41:08 <zzo38> That wiki contains a lot of information about programming NES and Famicom.
06:41:31 <zzo38> (and other related systems, such as Vs.Unisystem)
06:44:21 <zzo38> One thing a bit unusual about this Z-machine interpreter is that several things are decided at compile-time; this may make the program more efficient in some ways.
06:49:48 <zzo38> The CPU chip used in that computer is the 2A03, which contains two cores which is the CPU core and APU core. The CPU core is a 6502 but with BCD arithmetic disabled (the logic is still there, it is just disconnected from the rest of the circuit). the APU core is used for audio (two square waves, one triangle wave, one noise, one DPCM) but also I/O ports and a DMA transfer.
06:50:11 <Bike> how is the apu controlled
06:50:38 <zzo38> The APU is controlled by memory-mapped registers $4000-$4020.
06:53:03 <zzo38> The address of the DMA transfer is hard-coded and cannot be changed; you can change the source address to any 256-byte boundary, and when activated it reads the data from all 256 addresses in that page and writes the results all to a single address (not to 256 separate addresses).
06:58:29 <kmc> why disable BCD
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06:59:24 <tertu> don't most z-machine games expect a somewhat wider screen than the famicom has
07:01:05 <zzo38> tertu: Yes, but I do with what we have. (Also, this program is only version 1 to 3 Z-machine)
07:02:03 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Z-machine480.jpg
07:02:22 <Bike> iirc wasn't the bcd part of the chip still on it, just with the wires cut so you couldn't access it
07:02:34 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, it is like that.
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07:04:49 <zzo38> Due to overscan, the visible area is only 30x26, but if no words are longer than 30 then it would fit. However you probably will need to scroll the screen a lot.
07:07:27 <zzo38> Also, for simplicity, everything is displayed in uppercase (which is OK in version 1-3 only, as long as it can be distinguished internally in all cases that matter)
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07:10:57 <zzo38> kmc: Apparently due to patents on the 6502 CPU design.
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07:13:24 <zzo38> In addition, it doesn't implement the status line (there is a bit in the header to indicate this), and the SPLIT and SCREEN operations are not supported (there is also the bit in the header to indicate this too).
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08:35:43 <kmc> zzo38: heh
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12:11:47 <fizzie> Huh, there's really no NES Z-machine interpreter? That is quite surprising.
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15:42:43 <ais523> anyone here have advice on how to read a line from a file without using stdio?
15:43:49 <ais523> like, I can think of a few ways, was wondering what the best way is
15:43:58 <ais523> byte-at-a-time is pretty slow, I'd hope to avoid that
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15:45:29 <olsner> is it ok to read more than the first line? can you seek?
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15:45:58 <ais523> olsner: I can seek, and I can over-read
15:46:14 <ais523> also I have an advisory read lock on the file and everything that touches the file respects advisory locks
15:46:21 <ais523> so I can guarantee it won't change while I'm reading
15:46:24 <olsner> hmm, how about mmap and strchr/memchr?
15:46:39 <ais523> huh, I hadn't thought of that at all
15:46:47 <ais523> although, this should work on Windows too
15:46:58 <ais523> I believe there's some sort of compatibility layer somewhere translating lseek, read, etc
15:47:07 <ais523> but it almost certainly doesn't translate mmap
15:47:36 <HackEgo> olist 934: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
15:48:36 <olsner> Windows certainly can mmap files, but it probably doesn't have a function called mmap
15:48:55 <ais523> yeah, it's not a case of "can Windows do that", but "can I do that without writing a bunch of Windows-specific code"
15:50:48 <olsner> hmm, why can't you just use stdio though? (not that stdio has a portable and safe getline function that I know of)
15:52:07 <ais523> olsner: because there's a huge amount of jumping around seeking and locking and unlocking and so on, stdio buffering would screw this up
15:54:41 <Gregor> Just read into a growing buffer and stop when strchr('\n') isn't -1.
15:56:20 <ais523> yeah, that's what I was planning
16:00:24 <Gregor> Also, surely fgets on Windows has correct behavior?
16:00:43 <Gregor> Oh, without using stdio.
16:00:51 <Gregor> So, reimplementing stdio for no good reason.
16:01:16 <ais523> Gregor: yeah, pretty much
16:01:34 <ais523> or, "reimplementing stdio because it doesn't like files unexpectedly shrinking while you're writing to them"
16:02:07 * Gregor thinks for a second...
16:02:26 <Gregor> If a file unexpectedly shrinks while you're writing to it, stdio's correct behavior should be to re-expand the file with zeroes.
16:03:07 <ais523> Gregor: re-expanding the file with zeroes
16:03:22 <ais523> whereas the behaviour that I /want/ is to abort the write
16:03:25 <ais523> which implies no buffering
16:03:33 <ais523> because I need to know what has and hasn't been written at any given point
16:08:15 <ais523> or put it this way: the previous code used stdio, it kept failing in bizarre ways because trying to keep track of buffering on top of everything else was just too much
16:19:11 <mroman_> Does the halting problem imply, that there actually is a program where it is undecidable if it halts or not?
16:19:20 <mroman_> Or does it just state, that no algorithm can decide it
16:19:47 <mroman_> or are those statements equivalent?
16:21:44 <int-e> usually one proofs that for any would be decision procedure for the halting program there is some input which it gets wrong (either giving a wrong answer or failing to terminate).
16:23:12 <Gregor> mroman_: In a sense, whether those statements are equivalent is philosophical. If you believe that humans are super-Turing, then they're not. If humans are not super-Turing, then they are.
16:24:47 <ais523> mroman_: Gödel's Theorem actually does explicitly construct an undecidable program
16:37:14 <mroman_> I'm searching for a proof of the halting problem that is actually understandable :)
16:37:27 <mroman_> and I haven't found a single one
16:38:36 <mroman_> The ones that don't make use of crazy math feed the program to itself
16:39:19 <mroman_> L(Q,x) halts, if Q(x) does not and does not halt, if Q(x) halts
16:39:29 <mroman_> then L(L,L) and stuff goes boom
16:39:48 <mroman_> and my brain just keeps yelling: How the fuck would that work
16:40:18 <myname> where's the problem with it
16:40:29 <myname> if L(L) halts, L(L) does not halt
16:40:33 <mroman_> L computes whether Q halts for Input X
16:40:51 <mroman_> so L(L,L) computes whether L(L) halts
16:41:04 <mroman_> but what's the input of the second L?
16:41:38 <myname> the second L is actually the description of L
16:41:46 <myname> so it does not need any input
16:43:00 <mroman_> Yeah. But what are you actually deciding then?
16:43:19 <mroman_> Assuming f(x) is a function
16:43:35 <int-e> L(Q,x) should test whether Q(x,x) halts.
16:43:36 <mroman_> and L(f,x) tries to state whether f(x) can actually be computed
16:43:58 <int-e> then L(L,L) does test termination of L(L,L) and all works out as claimed.
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16:45:13 <myname> it is not actually f(f), it is more like f(written down definition of f)
16:45:32 <myname> as i.e. gödel number or the like
16:45:35 <ais523> yeah, the "how do you write down the definition of f" is the main mathematical content of the proof
16:45:36 <mroman_> I have no idea what that definition is supposed to be
16:45:39 <ais523> everything else is pretty trivial
16:45:47 <mroman_> The definition does not have any input
16:46:06 <myname> the defintion is just a number or a string or whatever
16:46:15 <mroman_> so for what input are you actually trying to calculate whether it halts or not
16:46:16 <myname> and as such does not need any kind of input
16:47:06 <myname> at L(Q,x) you test Q with input x,x as int-e stated
16:47:16 <myname> so it will never ever come to f(f) there
16:48:15 <myname> so, if L(L,L) halts, L(L,L) does not halt
16:48:21 <myname> therefore, L cannot exist
16:48:40 <FreeFull> What if L is like universes in type theory?
16:49:20 <FreeFull> So you would actually have L_i(L_i-1,L_i-1)
16:49:27 <FreeFull> I don't know if that would help
16:49:27 <ais523> bleh… actually what I really want is a scanf that gives pointers into the original string and decodes base 64 and decompresses zlib
16:50:08 <mroman_> What if I assume that there are two turing machines that are able to decide the halting problem
16:50:15 <ais523> I don't know what i Want
16:50:17 <FreeFull> ais523: What you actually want is a program that writes all your software for you, as you want it
16:50:24 <FreeFull> Even if you don't know how you want it
16:50:25 <mroman_> and then do L(G,G) and G(L,L)
16:50:28 <ais523> FreeFull: yeah, that'd be nice, but it'd take too long to impl
16:50:53 <FreeFull> Well, you wouldn't be the one to impl it
16:51:25 <myname> L(G,G) would by definition be G(G,G)
16:52:32 <myname> L(G,L) would be G(L,L) would be L(L,L)
16:53:16 <int-e> mroman_: you can play such tricks, but you need more arguments, L(G,L) and G(G,L), where L(G,L) tests whether G(G,L) terminates and G(G,L) tests where L(G,L) terminates.
16:53:59 <int-e> and these things become tedious soon.
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17:38:13 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/Z6Z4ZT3b <- you can also argue that way
17:38:26 <mroman_> but it leaves unclear whether P(i) actually exists or not
17:38:53 <mroman_> but we know, that if it does, that no program can decide that stuff
17:41:10 <myname> "i put something undecideable into something that does decides everything, therefore it can't exists" sounds pretty strange
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17:48:17 <oerjan> elan's dad is starting to get annoying.
17:50:07 <oerjan> ais523: you managed to make an `olist that wasn't duplicate, this is _highly_ irregular hth
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17:51:45 <FireFly> luckily they seem to be on their way of his subplot
17:52:04 <oerjan> FireFly: um did you even _read_ today's update.
17:52:36 <int-e> what are you reading?
17:54:31 <int-e> I have a bookmark on #726, haven't read it since.
17:56:14 <ais523> oerjan: well the forum thread was only at 4 pages, and I'd checked like half an hour before
18:01:12 <oerjan> <mroman_> but what's the input of the second L? <-- i think you are a bit confused. L should only take one argument, and L(Q) should decide whether Q(Q) halts.
18:02:04 <oerjan> (and do the opposite.)
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18:02:50 <oerjan> it's the initially assumed halting function which takes two arguments, not L.
18:04:29 <oerjan> it's quite possible your source was confused about this, wouldn't be the first time.
18:13:48 <oerjan> <FreeFull> What if L is like universes in type theory? <-- then you get lots of nice proofs about separation in complexity hierarchies.
18:14:06 <Slereah> I wanted to ask a question
18:14:18 <Slereah> Can we find my question using some sort of programming trick
18:14:28 <oerjan> good, good, as i should be leaving now.
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18:14:48 <FreeFull> oerjan: And of course you always need a higher hierarchy to prove something about the one right below
18:17:38 <ais523> found on Reddit: someone's trying to translate Haskell's Prelude into pure GNU Make (i.e. no shelling out or scripting): https://github.com/PiPeep/prelude.mk/blob/master/prelude.mk
18:18:06 <ais523> although it seems pretty partial atm
18:21:44 <ais523> I'd probably upvote it if it were more complete
18:21:59 <ais523> like, how does PiPeep plan to handle lists of lists, for instance?
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20:03:54 <Slereah> Is there a language that is directly based on set theory?
20:04:09 <Slereah> LISP is pretty close but it is not really
20:04:23 <Slereah> And there are a lot of languages based on axiomatic systems
20:04:32 <Slereah> But I can't think of any from ZFC
20:06:07 <Bike> most sets being unrepresentable doesn't hel.
20:07:03 <Slereah> Well all sets are representable in ZF-NC
20:07:47 <Slereah> But well, µ-recursive functions are based on some axiomatic system of integers
20:07:58 <Slereah> Logical combinators as well, and lambda calculus
20:08:09 <Slereah> So I'm wondering if there's any for some flavor of set theory
20:08:31 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice#Statements_consistent_with_the_negation_of_AC iunno
20:11:02 <Slereah> I think constructive set theory requires both the negation of choice and of the excluded middle
20:11:04 <Bike> zfc isn't constructive, i guess is what i mean.
20:12:24 <Bike> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/set-theory-constructive/ oh good.
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20:13:28 <Slereah> A lot of people feel strongly about axiomatic systems, which I always find weird
20:13:40 <Slereah> Like one of them is truer than another
20:13:48 <Sgeo> Is there any reason I shouldn't treat Red Bull as slightly weaker coffee that tastes much, much better?
20:14:33 <Slereah> People basically seem to treat it like DRUUUUGS
20:14:41 <Slereah> Also the taurine is kind of a boogey man
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20:14:57 <Sgeo> Does the taurine even do anything? Also, I treat coffee as a drug, so
20:15:13 <Sgeo> I drink coffee to get a specific effect
20:16:23 <Bike> well it is a drug.
20:16:44 <Sgeo> Also, I want something that has the taste of Red Bull without the caffeine, so I could drink it constantly without using it in drug mode. Technically still a drug I guess, but less dangerous to overconsume
20:17:11 <Slereah> Yeah, but I mean drug as in
20:21:44 <ais523> I always assumed Red Bull was stronger than either
20:22:15 <ais523> (in fact, I haven't drunk caffeinated drinks for like 8 years now)
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20:22:51 <Slereah> Redbull has about the same amount of caffeine as regular coffee
20:23:14 <FireFly> I'll stick to tea & occasional soft drinks
20:33:17 <keoni29> Does anyone here have experience with Forth?
20:34:00 <keoni29> I am building a microcomputer based on an eZ8 microcontroller and I have to decide what it boots into
20:34:13 <keoni29> We were thinking about Forth.
20:34:29 <keoni29> At the moment I just have this shell from which you can run programs:
20:35:38 <keoni29> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DyPKRJV9PI&feature=player_embedded
20:35:56 <keoni29> This is an old version of the current firmwae
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20:51:59 <ais523> keoni29: yeah, Forth seems vaguely appropriate for that
20:52:12 <ais523> its main uses are as a bootstrap language, and on embedded systems, and for making DSLs
20:52:20 <ais523> and your use seems to fit into two out of three of those categories
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20:57:39 <keoni29> I already wrote routines for comparing strings with a list of tokens
20:57:52 <keoni29> So writing an interpreter would not be a huge deal
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20:58:09 <keoni29> It's all written in Z8 assembler
20:58:16 <Taneb> ais523, one of the people at my university seems to know you from b nomic
21:05:28 <ais523> Taneb: hmm, interesting
21:05:32 <ais523> there aren't that many B players
21:05:41 <ais523> what's their name? or do you have a reason to keep it secret?
21:06:23 <ais523> actually, considering the list of people who would say B rather than Agora
21:06:26 <ais523> it's a very short list indeed
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21:29:59 <ais523> oh, must be James Baxter
21:30:34 <ais523> they've only posted to B 6 times, I had to search to see who it was
21:30:40 <ais523> so I'm impressed that they can remember who I am
21:31:40 <Taneb> I think he said that he had a debate with you on an interpretation of a rule?
21:34:47 <ais523> that happens a lot in nomics
21:36:02 <olsner> isn't that the only thing that happens in nomics?
21:36:12 <ais523> olsner: well atm, nothing happens at all :-(
21:36:18 <b_jonas> olsner: anything can happen in a nomic
21:36:20 <ais523> but you should see BlogNomic for a nomic that's normally based on using the rules
21:36:24 <ais523> rather than debating over them
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21:40:49 <Taneb> Someone is trying to log in as me on IRC
21:41:18 <Taneb> They are not succeeding
21:41:24 <Taneb> I am pretty sure that I am actually me
21:41:43 <Bike> sock yourself just to be sure.
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21:52:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: no, it's just that temple ghosts often have your name
21:52:41 <FireFly> I've had that happen to me occasionally
21:52:51 <ais523> b_jonas: temple? I thought it was a 1 in 7 chance for ghosts generally
21:53:03 <ais523> (or have I got the context completely wrong?)
21:53:21 <ais523> I remember because I refactored that code earlier today due to making the player's name not a global variable
21:53:28 <ais523> err, yesterday, probably
21:53:30 <b_jonas> ais523: dunno, possible, I just spend lots of time in temples going in and out and get free ghosts for it
21:53:38 <b_jonas> I don't meet many ghosts in other places
21:53:42 <ais523> b_jonas: why? is this some new farming method I've never heard of?
21:53:58 <b_jonas> no, it's just that I have to leave and enter the temple for other reasons
21:54:05 <b_jonas> the ghosts themselves are useless
21:54:11 <ais523> right, but why did you kill the priest? for conversion purposes?
21:54:49 <b_jonas> I didn't kill her! I was trying to save her! It was an accident and nothing to do with me!
21:54:58 <b_jonas> I'm not responsible for where dragons breathe!
21:55:50 <b_jonas> and it was a mistake to kill her so early, I should have donated more to her and THEN kill and sacrifice her
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21:57:04 <ais523> now you're going to blame it on me, in 3.4.3 the dragon would have ripped her apart with tooth and claw rather than using the breath attack
21:57:06 <b_jonas> two mistakes, because I killed both the minetown priest and the dlvl15 priest too early, but at least the dlvl15 priest was totally necessary eventually because she was cross-aligned
21:57:21 <ais523> you still have the Valley priest left
21:57:39 <b_jonas> I'll kill her only right before the asc run
21:57:41 <ais523> now I wonder what happens if you StF a statue of a priest in the Orcustown temple
21:57:53 <b_jonas> I should have donated all the gold to all three priests
21:58:01 <b_jonas> but I messed it up, I can get the value of my gold only once now
21:58:04 <ais523> also this playstyle is alien to me, I typically don't kill priests
21:58:23 <b_jonas> also, um, can we move to #nethack4?
21:58:23 <ais523> I'm (almost always) lawful
21:58:37 <ais523> the discussion's only funny /because/ it's in the wrong channel
21:59:15 <olsner> it was way better before you managed to mention what the context was
22:10:57 <HackEgo> 112) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. \ 715) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /th
22:13:56 <quintopia> ais523: hi. got anything interesting in the works
22:15:10 <ais523> quintopia: I wanted to get a NetHack 4 release out by tomorrow
22:15:14 <ais523> but no way it's going to be ready on time
22:15:26 <ais523> unless I recruit the entire population of people who are familiar with the codebase to help out, and probably not even then
22:15:53 <HackEgo> 715) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
22:16:04 <ais523> shachaf: 10th anniversary of NetHack 3.4.3
22:16:10 <quintopia> ais523: you should get zzo38 to make nethack 4 for famicom :D
22:16:30 <shachaf> ais523: Maybe aim for Apr 1.
22:17:04 <ais523> quintopia: I actually joked about NetHack for NES in the release message last April 1, although I wasn't thinking about zzo38 at the time
22:17:09 <ais523> just trying to find a platform that it obviously didn't wok on
22:20:54 <olsner> how big is nethack? how hard could it be?
22:22:54 <ais523> NetHack 3.4.3 is 206429 lines for the entire distribution; NetHack 4 (latest development version) is 150529
22:23:16 <ais523> partly due to a lot of refactoring, partly due to dropping support for various obscure platforms
22:25:21 <olsner> apparently cartridges ranged up to 1MB, so it should be reasonably possible
22:25:59 <ais523> from what I remember, it's impossible to fit the NetHack binaries and a save file onto the same (1.44MB) floppy disk
22:26:58 <Taneb> Could you make a ridiculously NES-optimized version
22:27:08 <ais523> me personally? probably not
22:27:13 <ais523> in general, it might be possible
22:27:25 <ais523> you could start with 3.1 or so and then turn all the optional features off, that'd help a bit
22:28:35 <Taneb> Also, I just realised that if homeopathy actually worked I'd be immune to caffeine by now
22:30:57 <kmc> if homeopathy worked then all the world's oceans would be incredibly powerful medicine
22:33:25 <Bike> the strongest shark poop solution in history
22:34:47 <kmc> "I don't drink water. Fish fuck in it."
22:35:37 <olsner> "I drink water. Sometimes I get thirsty."
22:36:05 <Bike> a lot more than fish fuck in it if you know what i mean *seductive wink*
22:37:54 <kmc> don't think i could manage that
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22:38:18 <Bike> i'm saying i'm going to fuck a jellyfish
22:41:10 <kmc> because it's so easy?
22:41:14 <shachaf> although i've been drinking lots of non-water things for the past few months
22:41:22 <kmc> (double entendre on the word "easy")
22:41:23 <shachaf> because, yes, it's so easy
22:41:46 <kmc> shachaf: which things have you been drinking?
22:42:17 <shachaf> i think mostly various things that claim to be tea
22:43:06 <shachaf> i should drink proper tea, though
22:43:32 <quintopia> Bike: don't fuck a cuttle fish tho
22:44:01 <olsner> Bike: cuddle a cuddlefish tho
22:44:19 <Bike> except it will probably vomit up ink and mucus on me
22:44:26 <kmc> they're so cute
22:44:39 <Bike> small price to pay i suppose
22:45:18 <shachaf> can i be a cuddlefish when i grow up
22:45:29 <kmc> they don't live long enough to use their smart brains :/
22:45:47 <Bike> i don't live long enough to use my smart brain either :(
22:46:01 <quintopia> kmc: you mean how they have brains that are bigger than their bodies, including their brains?
22:46:20 <shachaf> does anyone live long enough to use their smart brains
22:46:35 <Bike> a paleontologist posted that video yesterday. it made me happy
22:46:42 <Taneb> On that note, does anyone know how to use pietcreator?
22:52:09 <olsner> cuddlefish have three hearts
22:53:51 <ion> http://youtu.be/1bmrm_8Y9Bc
22:55:48 <quintopia> https://gist.github.com/Janiczek/7849921
23:00:13 <Bike> if you start with the infinite radical set equal to zero you get the same value of x.
23:00:23 <Bike> so i'm guessing the substitution is somehow invalid.
23:01:37 <Bike> like if there's no value of x that makes the radical 1, or somethin
23:06:04 <Bike> wait, what are you talking about, if x equals one than the substitution gives the square root of two.
23:08:03 <Bike> might wanna get that checked out
23:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> as far as "How can you get 1 from nested square roots of 0?
23:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> There is nothing accumulating that would converge to a limit or something..." you're not taking a limit here
23:09:02 <Bike> you can call the problem √(x+y) = y, in which case you end up with x = y² - y, and again y = 0 and y = 1 have the same value for x, so like whatever man.
23:09:59 <quintopia> the solution is phi (and the other negative one, eta or w/e)
23:12:43 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: can't you make √x, √(x+√x), √(x+√(x+√x)) bla bla an actual series somehow
23:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> sure, but there's nothing saying the limit of that series will be the same as whatever you get by twiddling the infinite expression
23:16:54 <Taneb> I kind of want to enter one of the BBC's quiz shows for some reason
23:22:27 <b_jonas> Taneb: which kind of quiz show?
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23:25:58 <kmc> i almost learned why φ is good for integer hashing but didn't learn really :/
23:25:58 <kmc> http://brpreiss.com/books/opus4/html/page214.html
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23:33:37 <Taneb> b_jonas, I was thinking more Only Connect
23:36:46 <kmc> Dragons' Den
23:37:00 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, they aren't auditioning for Weakest Link!
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23:41:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no
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23:41:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, yes (ok no you're not enough of a twat to go on the apprentice)
23:41:59 <Taneb> (also they aren't auditioning for it at the moment)
23:42:12 <Bike> the apprentice is the show where that one rich douche yells at you right
23:42:26 <Bike> i wanna say tom cruise but that's not him
23:44:12 <kmc> is there something which is like hackathons but instead of pretending to make something useful, you just see who can write the fastest HTTP server or w/e in 24 hours
23:45:08 <oerjan> i would not think tom cruise and donald trump were very confusable
23:45:39 <oerjan> admittedly i mainly just know what they look like.
23:46:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is thinking of alan sugar, presumably
23:47:45 <Bike> just another face of the platonic rich douche in the heavens
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23:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, it retains some entertainment value in that the people he's yelling at are deliberately selected to be wannabe rich douches who are completely unbearable, but it still wears thin fast.
23:58:35 <Bike> that just sounds really sad.
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00:26:31 <oerjan> i have a hunch our wiki's rectwrap class is no longer working for IE11 :(
00:27:44 <oerjan> (by which i mean, i tried to fix lucasieks' edit to use it, it didn't look good, which made me look at the other places i knew it was used, and it no longer looked good there either.)
00:28:20 <oerjan> which isn't really surprising since it depends on IE having a parser difference.
00:30:19 <quintopia> i have a friend who does the product testing on IE
00:30:49 * kmc watches Mr. van Doom's talk about esolangs
00:31:15 <oerjan> quintopia: i may be guessing that they fixed the parsing to be compliant with everyone else, _without_ fixing the thing that makes the usual style setting for making every other browser wrap things rectangularly break on IE
00:31:46 <oerjan> and the parser hack is necessary because the thing that makes it work for IE, makes firefox break instead.
00:32:32 <oerjan> quintopia: btw this is our hack .rectwrap { word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: pre\9 }
00:32:33 <quintopia> Taneb: can you relink that i'll watch it too
00:32:58 <Taneb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
00:33:14 <oerjan> the \9 makes either IE ignore that option or everyone else, i don't quite remember.
00:34:22 <kmc> $ screen -r
00:34:23 <quintopia> oerjan: can't we just make a bad-IE-specific css and <!--if IE lt 11 (or whatever that syntax is) around its inclusion?
00:34:24 <kmc> that ain't good
00:35:09 <oerjan> oh it was back in september, so it must have worked in IE10 as well
00:35:45 <kmc> Taneb: what group was this given for?
00:36:13 <oerjan> quintopia: no, because IE has not supported that syntax in a while, including for IE 9 which needs the hack
00:36:41 <kmc> serve the style sheet from a PHP script which looks at the User-agent header
00:37:05 <oerjan> kmc: ooh, that's evil :P
00:37:19 <Taneb> kmc, my uni's computer enthusiast society
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00:44:06 <oerjan> hm ok just removing the \9 makes it work in IE11
00:47:36 <oerjan> although i have no idea why it needs _both_ white-space: settings.
00:53:27 <kmc> (you can also do that client-side with JS which creates a <script> element, or sets the src= on one)
01:02:20 <oerjan> kmc: this is in mediawiki btw
01:03:19 <oerjan> so there are strict limits to how much can be done before elliott puts his foot down in despair.
01:03:38 <kmc> OH: "I'm confused, is drinking winning or losing?"
01:07:15 <oerjan> elliott: can you reload css with ctrl-F5 and visit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox and tell if the two pre blocks look equal? and anyone else with firefox and/or chrome.
01:07:33 <oerjan> he seems disturbingly idle.
01:07:59 <elliott> first one has newline before block of C, second does not
01:08:42 <oerjan> that means the new version looks better than the old one :)
01:09:19 <elliott> the second one looks better to me
01:09:43 <oerjan> (i want the version which looks as close to rectangular as possible, of course.
01:09:53 <oerjan> and anyone with firefox?
01:11:10 <elliott> second has horizontal scrollbar in FF
01:12:07 <elliott> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/word-wrap
01:12:10 <elliott> note the Note there, perhaps
01:12:28 <elliott> and also: word-wrap:break-word can be used to work around lack of pre{white-space:pre-wrap} support in IE 5.5-7. See white-space for an example.
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01:14:08 <oerjan> elliott: however that's not in the part that is parsed differently
01:14:57 <oerjan> it's the need for whether to have white-space: pre or not which messes up things.
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01:16:09 <oerjan> IE11 seems to require _both_ white-space: pre-wrap and white-space: pre, for some unfathomable reason (aren't they overriding each other?)
01:16:32 <oerjan> elliott: what do you mean by "same"
01:19:48 <oerjan> hm i found the link for the hack again
01:19:57 <oerjan> http://jsbin.com/bulletproof-responsive-pre/2/edit
01:20:18 <oerjan> i think i will try copying all of it.
01:20:34 <oerjan> since that page actually looks good to me.
01:24:24 <oerjan> elliott: ok can you recheck now
01:27:09 <oerjan> chrome and firefox. of course the full hack is supposed to work in even more, so if you've got them... :P
01:27:24 <elliott> second rectangular in chrome
01:27:34 <elliott> first is not rectangular in chrome
01:27:48 <oerjan> no matter, first is the old version which was only part of the hack
01:27:59 <elliott> in IE11, neither are rectangular
01:28:01 <oerjan> and which somehow stopped working
01:28:11 <oerjan> i'm using IE11 you doofus :P
01:28:30 <elliott> then our configurations or versions differ
01:29:52 <elliott> I don't know how to update IE
01:30:09 <oerjan> elliott: well in my "about IE" there's a checkbox for it
01:30:18 <elliott> I can tell you what rules it thinks applies to that element
01:31:13 <elliott> word-break: break-all; word-wrap: break-word; (this one crossed out but ticked:) white-space: pre; (not ticked, i.e. not understood:) white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; (ticked:) white-space: pre-wrap; (not ticked:) white-space: pre\9;
01:31:51 <elliott> maybe you are using compatibility view
01:33:06 <oerjan> sorry, discard that. i must of forgot to reload properly, the last one no longer looks rectangular. :(
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01:38:42 <elliott> you can look at the difference between which rules are being applied in each version with "Inspect element"
01:38:44 <oerjan> oh well i guess i shall have to wait until get-the-damn-browsers-to-cooperate hacking technology improves
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01:39:04 <kmc> what's the page in question
01:39:18 <oerjan> also i reverted the last css hack
01:39:32 <oerjan> kmc: well i put up a test on Esolang:Sandbox
01:39:58 <kmc> as in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox ?
01:40:00 <oerjan> currently the css is defined so that the second works in IE11 and chrome, the first works in chrome and firefox
01:40:19 <oerjan> the hack used for the first _used_ to work in previous IE.
01:40:39 <kmc> in servo it's a blank grey page
01:41:00 <oerjan> i don't think i particularly worry about that.
01:42:49 <oerjan> perhaps we're just in a state where there is no css-only hack that works on the latest versions of all major browsers, well them's the breaks
01:43:40 <oerjan> of course the page where i got the hack from works because it wraps actual text and not reams of punctuation strings.
01:45:53 <oerjan> elliott: we probably _could_ split common.css by browser as kmc said, right?
01:47:25 <oerjan> we may be the only site on the net which actually needs this to work with reams of punctuation :P
01:47:51 <elliott> one possible problem with rectangular wrapping is that it is hard to tell when there are newlines or not
01:48:27 <oerjan> elliott: well i wouldn't be using .rectwrap for any language which allows newlines for normal formatting anyhow
01:49:18 <oerjan> so so far it hasn't been a problem, i think
01:50:06 <oerjan> also, i don't think this wrapping method hides that unless the previous line is accidentally maximal length.
02:18:04 <shachaf> kmc: how can it be blank and grey at the same time
02:18:19 <kmc> a whiter shade of pale
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02:40:26 <doesthiswork> there has been an increase in the use of the construction "word / word" in this channel over the years
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02:58:46 <Sgeo> My gf is shocked that I haven't seen The Nightmare Before Christmas
03:11:54 <doesthiswork> is she going to make you watch it and stay the night?
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03:15:57 <oerjan> hm... http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1sbfmb/honorary_doctorate_for_simon_peyton_jones_on/cdw471w?context=3
03:16:50 <Sgeo> You don't need a PhD to program in Haskell, but you need one to write well-designed libraries
03:17:13 <oerjan> are you saying that spj doesn't write well-designed libraries.
03:17:14 <Sgeo> (Actually, how many libraries are a direct result of a PhD program? I think there's at least one)
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03:28:41 <oerjan> i don't know, i just have a doctorate in science, like spj.
03:29:59 <shachaf> what's the matter, doctorate your tongue?
03:30:05 <oerjan> this apparently makes you retroactively good at programming haskell. sadly i only found haskell afterwards.
03:31:01 <oerjan> shachaf: no, dr. lecter was not involved.
03:31:16 <shachaf> did you write thc, the trondheim haskell compiler
03:32:31 <oerjan> sadly i got laziness into the wrong part of the process
03:33:03 <shachaf> 19:08 <lightquake> "If [monads are] useful, you'd think one of the best hackers [Paul Graham] would have said something about it."
03:33:06 <shachaf> 19:08 <lightquake> never change, hacker news
03:33:58 <Sgeo> Does Paul Graham have anything to say about continuations?
03:33:59 <oerjan> monads are the coblubs of pg
03:34:30 <Sgeo> At least some CLers think that they're useful, otherwise cl-cont and that web framework based on it wouldn't exist
03:35:56 <shachaf> i went and looked at the thread and it's worse than i imagined
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03:44:07 <Bike> why would you give a shit about paul graham
04:03:11 <Bike> oh, hacker news jokes, i see
04:07:46 <quintopia> i don't have that character in my charset and i wish i did
04:08:45 <Bike> ^confused face?
04:09:43 <oerjan> i see about 2/3 of it, as usual with putty
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04:40:04 <HackEgo> rntz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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05:19:46 <quintopia> is there a standard for specifying cyclic tags with i/o
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06:56:43 <zzo38> Do you know if OpenMPT will load .MOD files with arbitrary note values?
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09:20:31 <HackEgo> 873) <fizzie> fungot: Are you the previous version of zzo38? <fungot> fizzie: i run some interactive tex programs
09:20:44 <shachaf> ruddy: Are you the previous version of fungot?
09:25:30 <lexande> kmc: the topic of this channel seems kind of dubious, isn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Kleene_ordinal beyond your reach?
09:25:51 <shachaf> fungot: is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Kleene_ordinal beyond your reach?
09:26:02 <shachaf> fizzie: what's with fungot?
09:26:05 <shachaf> ruddy: is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Kleene_ordinal beyond your reach?
09:26:06 <ruddy> help? you're beyond help, i'm afraid.
09:26:07 <Bike> look, i know i put it on the top shelf but it's not that high up.
09:26:24 <mroman_> Is there an esolang based on string rewriting/regex/pattern matching?
09:26:51 <shachaf> lexande: should i learn about large *dinals and if so how
09:27:12 <mroman_> a little bit less esoteric than thue
09:27:36 <Bike> well, not an esolang.
09:28:52 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/HuSC19El <- like haskell
09:28:59 <mroman_> but I need regexes in the patterns :(
09:30:35 <mroman_> Of course I can do this with evey language with regex bindings
09:30:45 <mroman_> but I'd like to have some native support :)
09:35:36 <zzo38> Things that natively do regex mainly include sed, Perl, AWK, and a few others.
09:36:02 <myname> sed being turing complete should do the job
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10:19:20 <zzo38> In this program sometimes I have JSR to a subroutine and then it does a few other things and then falls through into the same subroutine. (In one case it does not do anything else in between.) This can save space and also speed up the program. It is sort of like tail calling but with falling through. What is it called?
10:22:08 <zzo38> Replacing a JSR ... RTS with JMP will save one byte and nine cycles. Falling through saves another three bytes and three cycles.
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10:53:03 <olsner> maybe a sibling call (sibling tail call?)
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11:28:18 <fizzie> fungot: Is something with you?
11:28:18 <fungot> fizzie: what you really want to go
11:28:48 <fizzie> shachaf: I'unno. ruddy's ignored, and maybe you were over the four-consecutive-messages limit.
11:28:51 <ruddy> it might, in any case other fizzie's fizzie's
11:30:38 <olsner> fungot: what do you really want to go today?
11:30:38 <fungot> olsner: is that your new lang? it looks to me that it was only a recording of that.
11:36:44 <fungot> shachaf: i was thinking today about token based languages rather than english from time to time
11:36:59 <fungot> shachaf: so that " make dist" if i call that c and c++ are languages for smart people, starting with macro-expand-time: they need to do
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11:40:42 <FireFly> fungot: token-based languages? interesting
11:40:42 <fungot> FireFly: that violates the standard, so when you read it
11:40:48 <fungot> FireFly: it is actually a channel about scheme is that the students all have windows at home myself.
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11:59:46 <fizzie> `run echo 'Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.' > wisdom/c++ # C already had a good-enough entry
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12:08:59 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
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12:30:29 <lexande> fungot: is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Kleene_ordinal beyond your reach?
12:30:30 <fungot> lexande: what should i do that most places don't look at their w2k that took over 5 mins to recover from the feeling of the line
12:35:50 <olsner> apparently fungot moonlights recovering data from feelings, but refuses to answer questions about the Church-Kleene ordinal
12:35:51 <fungot> olsner: there's an advantage to doing it by hand, and thus fnord
12:36:31 <fungot> olsner: italian design for young urban professionals. we're on surgery here, ight? no
12:37:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
12:41:17 <lexande> whose fault is printf's %n?
12:49:53 <fungot> olsner: ok, thanks. i think
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12:58:55 <fungot> FireFly: ( probably off somewhere, sacrificing virgins or something like it.
12:59:29 <FireFly> fungot: never mind me then. carry on
12:59:29 <fungot> FireFly: assumes as posix os in it you need to use
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13:08:50 <Slereah> I wonder if using evolutionary algorithms on esolang would give good results
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13:42:36 <mroman_> Is there a type safe object oriented languag
13:42:48 <mroman_> one that does not even support not-type-safe-stuff
13:42:59 <mroman_> casting an Object back to a String
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14:48:08 <Jafet> Ocaml (only 17 years old)
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15:17:37 <oklopol> casting an object to a string is not type safe?
15:27:24 <Halite[tablet]> Can a data type be defined just by an array of strings?
15:32:25 <oklopol> oh did he mean that the object is a string object and it's cast back to the original
15:33:02 <oklopol> i thought like taking an object and getting <object of type 'int' at 0x0192839177389274932>, which i don't think is very dangerous
15:34:17 <oklopol> assuming the language does not allow operations that looks suspiciously like they are parsing the value from that output
15:47:01 <Halite[tablet]> In a first-class and class-based system, can first-class classes exist?
15:47:31 <Bike> gee, like smalltalk?
15:55:21 <Halite[tablet]> On another topic, I can't tell the difference between prototype based and class based systems anymore
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16:25:11 <mroman_> oklopol: Of course not @Object to String
16:25:50 <mroman_> That Object could have initially been a UdpConnectionSocket or something else
16:27:01 <mroman_> Unless you can prove at compile time that it actually was a String
16:27:51 <mroman_> (String)(Object)new String("foo"); is fine with me
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17:35:15 <olsner> hmm, is the baltic called "east sea" in finnish too?
17:38:41 <olsner> somehow ended up watching soumi on ruotsalainen
17:42:14 <mroman_> does OCaml curry like Haskell?
17:48:34 <quintopia> mroman_: why ocaml and not that other ml-like thing
17:51:37 <mroman_> Whats the other ml-like thing?
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18:11:16 <kmc> nobody uses the OO features of ocaml
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18:41:34 <quintopia> it seems p cool man. the guarantees it makes about the web services it creates
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19:51:18 <Taneb> I have eaten way too much aaah
19:51:43 <Taneb> Also I'm back in Hexham
19:52:56 <ais523> Taneb: is that a warning to Guest77471 to watch out that they don't recognise you by mistake?
19:54:35 <quintopia> ais523: i have my ping phrases set up to ping on my nick even if it is not currently my nick. perhaps elliott is also so prepared.
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19:55:12 <ais523> quintopia: I have my ping set like that, too, but if someone chooses a name, it's only polite to use it (unless the name is clearly trying to make a mockery of the process)
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19:55:47 <quintopia> ais523: i don't think that name was chosen. it looks more like a failure to identify.
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20:30:48 <int-e> @tell b_jonas have a look at https://github.com/int-e/zeckendorf please
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20:48:27 <kmc> http://www.beelinereader.com/ neato
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22:39:07 <int-e> Oh my god, it's full of bugs!
22:43:56 <nooodl> meanwhile in #haskell <bx> \msg lambdabot Hi
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22:53:08 <oerjan> <shachaf> lexande: should i learn about large *dinals and if so how <-- i recommend large testudinals
22:54:05 <ion> shachaf: Achievement Unlocked: finally got around to emailing him.
22:54:05 <oerjan> i hear you never run out no matter how far down you go
22:58:37 <int-e> and running lambdabot in a cabal sandbox does not really work; I can't tell mueval about the local package db.
23:00:44 <oerjan> int-e: there's no environment variable or something?
23:03:44 <oerjan> who mentioned stardinals.
23:04:58 <oerjan> quintopia: they're wildcardinals hth
23:05:17 <int-e> oerjan: thanks, there is GHC_PACKAGE_PATH
23:07:27 <oerjan> i can see them, romping through the gardens
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23:16:41 <olsner> oerjan: naked, fat and wearing funny hats?
23:17:35 <oerjan> i was trying not to see them quite _that_ clearly, thank you
23:22:36 <oerjan> <ais523> Taneb: is that a warning to Guest77471 to watch out that they don't recognise you by mistake? <-- hm does elliott know what Taneb looks like now, with the youtube talk and all
23:22:52 <ais523> but if e does, that's a terrifying prospect
23:23:03 <oerjan> also i agree with fizzie that he looks unexpectedly normal.
23:24:32 <oerjan> Taneb: i think you shall have to wear a mask outdoors while in hexham in the future. oh wait...
23:28:07 <oerjan> hm that would do it i guess.
23:28:21 <oerjan> or wait it's simply lambdabot doing that when output is empty?
23:32:58 <oerjan> > vsep $ text <$> ['a'..'c']
23:34:45 <oerjan> > vcat $ text <$> ['a'..'c']
23:34:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Char' with `[GHC.Types.Char]'
23:35:12 <oerjan> > vcat $ text . return <$> ['a'..'c']
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00:07:06 <Sgeo> Humble Bundle weekly sale has Multimedia Fusion 2
00:07:18 <Sgeo> Isn't that known for being the piece of garbage that IWBTG was created with?
00:07:32 <int-e> funny. starting three weeks ago I had a couple of failed logins to my github account. that's when I took over lambdabot...
00:10:02 <fungot> olsner: until then: c for me.
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00:17:40 * int-e twiddles his thumbs.
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00:19:30 <int-e> > vcat $ text . return <$> ['a'..'c']
00:20:40 <int-e> > vcat $ text . return <$> ['a'..'c']
00:21:33 <int-e> @check \x y -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
00:21:36 <int-e> @check \x y -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
00:21:40 <int-e> @check \x y -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
00:21:49 <int-e> @check \x y -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
00:21:50 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test and 1 shrink):
00:23:37 <int-e> @check \a b c d -> or [a,b,c,d]
00:23:38 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 20 tests):
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00:32:01 <int-e> > text "" -- I don't think that I will ever fix that one though.
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00:42:01 <quintopia> could functional languages be said to be like unto concatenative languages where composition takes the place of concatenation?
00:42:33 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't the definition of concatenative languages that composition = concatenation?
00:44:07 <quintopia> so is there a way to describe the set of all languages where one can directly connect two programs together and know the resulting program will be a working program that does the two things the original two did in order?
00:44:40 <quintopia> "connect" being a language-dependent concept
00:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> this is rather the point, a language is concatenative if its concept of 'connection' is just composition
00:46:39 <quintopia> a language is concatenative if its concept of 'connection' is concatenation
00:47:13 <quintopia> it seems to be pure functional if its concept of 'connection' is composition (with concatenative languages being a special case)
00:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> what does 'connection' even mean if not 'concatenation modulo trivial syntax differences'
00:48:46 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: piping stdout to stdout requires nontrivial syntax change to formulate it as a concatenation
00:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> that... seems to have nothing to do with what i asked and makes little sense besides
00:51:02 <quintopia> it's an example of a way to connect programs without concatenating them
00:52:00 <quintopia> isn't there some language whose data model is streams which are transformed?
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00:53:36 <quintopia> either way i don't see any proof of your claim that concatenation is the only way programs can meaningfully be connected in sequence
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00:57:09 <Sgeo> YouTube ads just decided I speak another language
00:57:11 <Phantom_Hoover> concatenation is a syntactic construct, not a semantic one
01:01:57 <Sgeo> Should be possible to fake a keyword-like vararg system without typeclasses in Haskell, I think
01:02:06 <Bike> are your previous messages related
01:02:44 <Sgeo> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet
01:02:59 <Sgeo> (Sorry, was just trying to avoid a message actually related to anything)
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01:06:10 <doesthiswork> Phantom_Hoover: there are visual languages where the 'connections' are drawn as links it could be quite annoying to translate that syntax into concatenation (i don't know how trivial you mean by trivial)
01:07:29 <Phantom_Hoover> yes; those languages just don't have any syntactic construct corresponding to 'concatenation'
01:07:59 <Phantom_Hoover> this is why quintopia's entire idea here seems very confused
01:08:10 <doesthiswork> I'm not sure what going on because both what you and quintopia say makes perfect sense
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01:11:39 <doesthiswork> "<Phantom_Hoover> what does 'connection' even mean if not 'concatenation modulo trivial syntax differences'" seems to be asking for connections that are expressed through other syntactic ways than concatenation/juxtiposition
01:14:43 <doesthiswork> so quintopia offered pipes as a syntactically different way of connecting functions
01:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> well the term itself was so vague i was trying to work out if quintopia was talking about something weird and specific
01:16:23 <Phantom_Hoover> you mean semantically different; the confusion between that and syntactically different is i think the confusion that has lead to this whole conversation
01:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> you could easily have a language where concatenation simply piped input
01:18:49 <Phantom_Hoover> because the only syntactic difference between piping and concatenation is that one of them uses a space and the other one uses a |
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01:29:39 <quintopia> doesthiswork: thanks for your support. PH's responses there seemed nuts to me too.
01:30:05 <quintopia> not the content, but the expressed confusion and emotion
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01:36:10 <oerjan> possibly relevant wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre's_law
01:36:20 <doesthiswork> he thought that by "cocept of connection" you meant what the wires mean, while I think you meant "how you indicate where the wires go"
01:39:25 <doesthiswork> it hurts my head to read the exchange with two slightly different meanings at once
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01:44:09 <quintopia> doesthiswork: interesting interpretation
01:47:08 <doesthiswork> I might have interchanged the views I believed you each to have,
01:49:48 <quintopia> but it's clear to me that with piping you are, in a sense, connecting a printf to a read, both of which might appear in the middle of the programs, which doesn't make sense as concatenation either semantically or syntactically
01:50:35 <quintopia> however, if every instruction in a language was of the form "read-eval-print" then that language would probably be concatenative
01:52:38 <doesthiswork> so quasiquote and lambda calculus both work by substitution, are really the same thing?
01:53:43 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes yo
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01:54:48 <quintopia> i'm not sure i understand quasiquote
01:55:43 <quintopia> like it creates an environment that creates behavior like #define would in C?
01:55:50 <oerjan> afair it doesn't introduce any bindings
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01:56:27 <int-e> ?? are we rediscovering combinatory logic?
01:56:28 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: ""
01:56:40 <quintopia> it's a macro that turns piping syntax into composition syntax?
01:56:55 <oerjan> `(this is a ,test) expands to something like (cons 'this (cons 'is (cons 'a test)))
01:56:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (this: not found
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01:57:20 <oerjan> (`whatever is an abbreviation for (quasiquote whatever)
01:57:57 <oerjan> like 'a abbrebiates (quote a)
01:59:09 <quintopia> because the quasiquote thing i was looking at was a thing for haskell
01:59:11 <doesthiswork> it allows you to quote some stuff and leave holes for values to be substituted in
01:59:17 <oerjan> oh. it's a macro in scheme.
01:59:47 <oerjan> i assumed that was what doesthiswork is referring to.
02:00:45 <oerjan> the ones in haskell are also sort of macros, since they use template haskell. but they do something different.
02:01:37 <oerjan> [x|whatever...|] passes the _string_ "whatever..." to the function x, which can then return arbitrary haskell templates.
02:02:11 <kmc> yeah it's a confusing (mis)use of the term "quasiquote"
02:02:25 <kmc> the normal TH quotes [| ... |] already have the behavior of Scheme's quasiquote
02:02:32 <kmc> which is to say, you can splice inside them
02:02:49 <Sgeo> kmc: but you can't put [| |] inside [| |]
02:02:54 <oerjan> and you define many quasiquote functions, which allows you to parse essentially arbitrary syntax inside the | ... |], except you cannot put |] in there.
02:02:59 <Bike> a quasi quasi quote
02:03:15 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah what's with that? is TH itself not part of the Haskell AST which TH operates on?
02:03:39 <kmc> was it just deemed un-useful due to the rigid 2-stage implementation of TH in GHC?
02:04:30 <Sgeo> re other quasiquoters not handling |], the way Factor syntax words handle end of input isn't with special token, but... just finishing its take-in of input, I think
02:06:29 <kmc> scheme also has the splicing variant of unquote... if you (define test '(a b c)) then `(x y ,test) => (x y (a b c)) but `(x y ,@test) => (x y a b c)
02:07:58 <int-e> hmm. ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x)))
02:08:08 <Bike> yes, a fun quine.
02:08:56 <Bike> if you hate joy and do like srfis you can do (#1=(lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '#1#)
02:09:26 <quintopia> int-e: what's the name of that combinator again
02:09:41 <int-e> gcl turns that into ((LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST 'QUOTE X))) '(LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST 'QUOTE X)))) :-/
02:09:58 <Bike> well hey that's still a quine
02:10:26 <int-e> Bike: yes, but it looks kind of boring :)
02:10:40 <Bike> shrug, it's what the quasiquoting means anyway
02:10:54 <int-e> quintopia: Omega = omega omega, where omega = \x . x x?
02:11:20 <Sgeo> My Braintrust implementation should probably have been written in Scheme... maybe
02:11:33 <Bike> this piece of ice on my window is almost penis shaped
02:12:05 <Sgeo> https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/fe54715fc61d1d98f4cc
02:12:07 <int-e> anyway, I'm way past bedtime. good night
02:12:19 <Sgeo> look at that huge primSource line :/
02:12:20 <Bike> now performing ampallang
02:12:48 <Bike> Sgeo: hah that's some good shit
02:13:37 <Sgeo> I should try rewriting with lens at some point
02:13:44 <Sgeo> But I'm still stuck with a huge-ass line
02:14:08 <Bike> ampallang complete
02:15:32 <Bike> semi secret language invented by amputees
02:29:07 <kmc> oof http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampallang is not that, and is also quite NSFW
02:35:21 <zzo38> I think that in a Famicom program you could store compressed level data (especially if it includes variable-length pieces) in CHR ROM rather than PRG ROM (as long as you don't need to display anything during loading), and it would make it much faster since you don't need all fancy programming for 16-bit address increments and that other kind of stuff.
02:38:06 <doesthiswork> kmc: that section of wikipedia is quite informative
02:38:39 <kmc> why can't you display anything during loading then?
02:38:53 <kmc> and why don't you need fancy programming
02:39:13 * kmc looks up how CHR ROM works
02:40:21 <zzo38> kmc: CHR ROM (and CHR RAM) must be accessed only by the PPU, and while it is displaying anything it will be busy so you will be unable to access CHR ROM/CHR RAM.
02:40:37 <zzo38> The PPU has automatic address increment so you don't need to implement it yourself.
02:44:43 <zzo38> When you read/write $2007 (the PPUDATA port), it will read/write the associated CHR ROM/RAM and then automatically increment the address. There is a flag you can set to tell it to add 1 or to add 32.
02:52:01 <Bike> oh i should make a blitter shouldn't i
02:55:19 <Bike> though i don't think the fpga ram has bit addressing
02:57:38 <Bike> oh, that reminds me, if i have a discrete probability distribution, represented as an array of floats between 0 and 1, is there a good branchless way to pick one randomly
02:57:51 <Bike> or will any microoptimization i do be eaten by the process of random number generation anyway
03:00:48 <kmc> i vaguely think shachaf knows something about that
03:01:01 <kmc> i guess the obvious branchy way is to store a cumulative distribution and binary-search it?
03:02:11 <Bike> i might be overthinking this since it's unlikely there will be more than five options for me
03:02:22 <kmc> if you are okay with accuracy down to 1/n then you can store an n-element array of outcomes w/ duplicates and pick one randomly
03:04:26 <Bike> it's quite likely some of the probabilities are on the order of 1/1000000, eheh
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03:53:58 <zzo38> Is there the possibility to work Washizu-style partnerships in games other than mahjong?
03:54:20 <ion> Perhaps in Super Mario Bros.
03:57:37 <kmc> what style of partnership is that
03:59:28 <zzo38> In Washizu mahjong, each team has one "leader" and one "supporter". The supporter's turn comes immediately after that team's leader's turn, and only the leader's score at the end counts (although since this is mahjong, the supporter's scores are still used to calculate who gets bonuses for first place, second place, etc)
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04:23:35 <ion> Anyone feel like shutting down a data center? http://saidescanso.uv.es/
04:24:28 <Bike> why would i want to do that
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05:06:27 <Zerker> please tell me that has some kind of authentication in place
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07:09:09 <Jafet> Unfortunately, it does.
07:12:38 <zzo38> I have implemented multiplication of two 16-bit signed numbers to a 16-bit result by making a table for multiplying 4-bit numbers and then splitting the inputs into nybbles and doing ten table lookups and shifting and adding the results. Is this OK, or are there faster ways (that don't involve lookup tables larger than 16K)?
07:12:59 <HackEgo> Jafet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:17:41 <lifthrasiir> zzo38, (a*16+b) * (c*16+d) = (a*c)*256 + (a*d)*16 + (b*c)*16 + b*d?
07:18:08 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, like that, is what I mean.
07:18:13 <lifthrasiir> obvious optimizations include making three copies of tables for a*b, a*b*16 and a*b*256.
07:18:32 <lifthrasiir> (whether it does optimize things or not is another story though)
07:18:47 <zzo38> The CPU is 8-bit data though, not 16-bits.
07:19:59 <Jafet> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alias_method
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07:21:44 <lifthrasiir> zzo38, another possibility includes using a variant of Karatsuba multiplication, i.e. (a*16+b) * (c*16+d) = (a*c)*256 + ((a+b)*(c+d) - a*c - b*d)*16 + (b*d).
07:22:07 <lifthrasiir> if accessing the multiplication table is slow enough it will work
07:24:04 <lifthrasiir> though I suspect accessing the table is not that slow
07:28:54 <zzo38> I don't think it is that slow either.
07:29:15 <zzo38> Anyways (a+b)*(c+d) might result in overflow
07:36:55 <zzo38> Also, unlike what you have, since they are sixteen-bit numbers, there will be sixteen multiplications, although six of them are omitted since they would be shifted beyond the range of the result, so only ten multiplication lookups are done.
07:38:59 <kmc> awesome, karatsuba (when a 23 year old student) invented his algo less than a week after hearing kolmogorov conjecture it was impossible
07:39:30 <kmc> then kolmogorov published it without karatsuba's knowledge but put karatsuba's name on it?
07:42:44 <lifthrasiir> zzo38, hmm, you are right, it will require a bit larger table with at least 10-bit elements.
07:45:26 <zzo38> Although maybe it will help to have another table for the low 4-bits of the result shifted left by 4, and another for the high 4-bits of the result shifted right by 4.
07:47:57 <myname> i like how he is spelled "karazuba" in the german wikipedia but the algorithm is still spelled "karatsuba"
07:52:28 <zzo38> Doing this results in three tables, and eliminates a lot of ASL and ROL instructions, and saves having to initialize two bytes of RAM, and probably saves approx. fifty cycles.
07:52:46 <zzo38> Is there anything else that can be done though?
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09:04:09 <Sgeo> "The International Monetary Fund IMF is compensating all the scam victims $1.9USD each, and your email address was found in the scam victim's list. This Western Union office has been mandated by the IMF to transfer your compensation to you via Western Union Transfer."
09:04:47 <Sgeo> A whole $1.9 !
09:05:17 <mroman_> You must be rich now or something
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09:05:56 <mroman_> You much did they scam you for ;)
09:06:47 <Jafet> Presumably $1.9 is the take averaged over the mailing list.
09:07:20 <Jafet> That's actually two days' salary, so it's not bad.
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09:08:52 <Jafet> Well, I keep hearing about people who live on less than $1 a day.
09:08:58 <mroman_> If you trick someone into paying you a bus trip you'll get three times that much in half an hour
09:09:59 <mroman_> But I'm pretty sure you can get more than 1$ by asking people for money on the street
09:11:10 <mroman_> some social system that pays money to people without income?
09:11:33 <Jafet> That might not work if the other people on the street have less than $1.
09:12:28 <mroman_> I imagined the US as a rich country
09:12:36 <mroman_> that sounds like an underdevelopped country
09:13:24 <kmc> it's a land of contrasts
09:13:27 <kmc> like every other fucking place
09:14:40 <Jafet> Underdeveloped countries, like Arkansas?
09:14:51 <mroman_> but there are federal organisations and systems that should prevent such things
09:15:07 <mroman_> If I were unemployed I would be entitled to an unemployment compensation
09:15:24 <mroman_> but it's still way way way way more than 1$ a day
09:16:32 <mroman_> It's not enough to own a car, go on vaccation etc.
09:17:33 <kmc> we have that too
09:17:42 <kmc> it's organized on a state-by-state basis but partly funded by the federal govt, I think
09:18:12 <mroman_> Everybody who works pays a tax for does who can't work
09:20:51 <mroman_> kmc: Then how come that people have to live for 1$ a day
09:21:19 <mroman_> Except they don't work on purpose, then you loose your unemployment compensation
09:21:31 <kmc> unemployment benefits can end in various ways, yeah
09:21:43 <kmc> and there are lots of other programs like welfare and food stamps (or whatever those are called now)
09:21:49 <kmc> but there may also be reasons why people don't end up on them
09:22:09 <mroman_> I'm however not sure what happens you have to pay for some expensive medical treatment
09:22:19 <mroman_> which is not covered by health insurance
09:22:42 <mroman_> I'm not sure if the government here would pay that
09:22:44 <kmc> you dodge bill collectors for the rest of your life, basically
09:22:52 <kmc> maybe declare bankruptcy
09:23:14 <Fiora> I think bankruptcy is typical
09:23:20 <Fiora> I think like half of bankrupcties are because of medical issues
09:23:29 <kmc> or you just don't get the treatment because the doctors know they won't get paid
09:23:32 <kmc> and then you die
09:23:46 <kmc> gee it's almost like this fucked up system is a huge drain on the national economy
09:23:58 <kmc> and therefore even the most cold-hearted among us should support reforming it
09:24:45 <mroman_> My opininon is, that the government should have some kind of fund which allows even unemployed people to live a decent life
09:25:02 <mroman_> It won't be an easy/luxorious life whatever
09:25:12 <kmc> basic income
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10:05:20 <kmc> `relcome Bossbear
10:05:25 <HackEgo> Bossbear: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:05:33 <kmc> if you say so
10:06:13 <Jafet> Squared is the best MC
10:06:14 <Bossbear> calculate d for the sun and you get just past neptune
10:06:44 <Bossbear> call albert, i have an improvement
10:07:19 <kmc> Bossbear: set controls for the heart of the sun
10:07:38 <Bossbear> is that the heart of the sunrise?
10:07:56 -!- kmc has set topic: NOTHING IS BEYOND OUR REACH | Set the controls for the heart of the sun | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
10:08:33 <Bossbear> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDqG9agd5wc
10:09:38 <kmc> not really
10:09:42 <kmc> damn you PH
10:09:57 <kmc> You've laid some kind of trap!
10:10:12 <Bossbear> phi + phihat =1 and phi x ohihat = -1
10:10:22 <Bossbear> phi is velocity and phi is time
10:10:51 <Bossbear> 1 refers to balance between infnite series
10:11:06 <Bossbear> all equations come from 2 waves
10:11:36 <Bossbear> i just defined relaity for you
10:12:21 <Bossbear> you are a transcedent form into an emergent system, there is no random in the preexcsting system since rality is math
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10:12:45 <Bossbear> random occurs when a foreign mathematical form is introduced
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10:13:07 <kmc> aw i didn't get a chance to try to buy shrooms from them
10:15:37 <elliott> I wouldn't have kicked them if their equations amused me more
10:17:58 <Sgeo> I have to be awake and competent in an hour and a half
10:18:02 <Sgeo> Myabe I shouldn't go to sleep now
10:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> you seem neither competent nor entirely awake as it is
10:18:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ok come on, that was uncalled for
10:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i meant the fact he typoed 'maybe', not his general state
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10:34:27 <Sgeo> Why are seasons considered to start at what is arguably their most extreme point?
10:36:46 <Phantom_Hoover> in terms of the solar cycle they don't: the equinoxes and solstices are all in the middle of seasons
10:37:29 <b_jonas> Sgeo: because Earth acts as a buffer so weather (temperature and flora) has a delay relative to the sun
10:37:43 <Sgeo> Googled "When does winter start": Saturday, December 21. Pretty sure that's the winter solstice.
10:38:34 <elliott> "But it should not be confused with "the first day of winter" or "the start of winter" (Lidong in the East Asian calendars)."
10:38:54 <fizzie> "In astronomical reckoning, the solstices and equinoxes ought to be the middle of the respective seasons, but, because of thermal lag, regions with a continental climate which predominate in the Northern hemisphere often consider these four dates to be the start of the seasons as in the diagram, with the cross-quarter days considered seasonal midpoints." Huh, news to me.
10:39:16 <fizzie> (Maybe we don't have a continental-enough climate?)
10:39:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i think we've all learnt that seasons are incredibly arbitrary and not to be trusted
10:39:56 <b_jonas> int-e: that's even more scary
10:40:03 <b_jonas> it generates the rules automatically? wow
10:40:42 <b_jonas> I'll definitely look at it
10:51:04 <b_jonas> int-e: as for eliminating leading zeros, I just use wrappers around the (0:) and (1:) constructors in my impl of binary
10:51:58 <kmc> i think we've all learnt that time is not to be trusted
10:52:11 <kmc> learnt and learn'd
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11:05:55 <HackEgo> carado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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11:18:54 <int-e> b_jonas: yes, I could handle leading zeros in the implementation of 'n', but I have other plans :)
11:32:27 <b_jonas> int-e: what does the zeckendorf subtraction you generated do on an underflow? loop infinitely?
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11:34:50 <int-e> b_jonas: Yes. I was happy with a partial function (actually it shouldn't be hard to detect that situation anyway, but I have not given it much thought.)
11:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> challenge: find a way of justifying cos as the category-theoretic dual of sin
11:38:41 <int-e> b_jonas: and in fact this is related to handling leading zeros properly; right now, whenever the remaining input is an empty list, but there are still carries to deal with, it just replaces it by [0].
11:38:59 <int-e> b_jonas: so indeed it will loop forever.
12:07:45 <Bike> Jafet: oh, thanks!
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12:59:45 <b_jonas> int-e: ok. I guess a complete suite could have comparison functions.
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13:01:37 <metasepia> CYUL 091242Z 07014KT 3/4SM R06L/P6000FT/D R06R/P6000FT/D -SN BKN004 OVC012 M05/M07 A3013 RMK SF5ST3 PRESFR SLP205
13:02:28 <fizzie> Good apparently nonexistent afternoon.
13:03:12 <fizzie> I guess Finland was all a figment of someone's imagination.
13:04:06 <metasepia> EFRO 091250Z VRB01KT 9999 1200SW BCFG NSC M21/M23 Q1023
13:04:57 <fizzie> It's just the Helsinki airport that has disappeared, then.
13:05:44 <fizzie> (Also: BCFG is probably some kind of a context-free grammar.)
13:09:10 <boily> Rejoice! The Tyranny of the Helsinki Hallucination has Ended!
13:09:49 <boily> (apparently BCFG is patchy fog ← http://www.wdisf.com/BCFG-stands-for-patchy-fog-metar-code.htm)
13:10:24 <fizzie> Of course, it must be short for batchy fog.
13:11:05 <boily> int-e: no search yet. will appear in the Most Vaporous New Version of Metasepia.
13:11:22 <boily> (meanwhile, you can file an issue on github → https://github.com/pfcuttle/metasepia)
13:12:09 <metasepia> LOWW 091250Z 29022KT 9999 -RA FEW025 BKN045 07/04 Q1023 NOSIG
13:15:13 <fizzie> There's low, and then there's LOWW.
13:18:09 <metasepia> LOWI 091250Z 26004KT 9999 FEW120 BKN300 02/M04 Q1031 NOSIG
13:18:56 <boily> meh. I guessed the wrong end of the country.
13:19:11 <fizzie> I guess IATA code lookup is also pending on the Vaporous Version too?
13:20:11 <boily> it was requested, memorized, guiltened, and thought about. now that I have the Mega Database of Everything, that will be an easy task.
13:20:34 <boily> (also, ocharles wrote a convincing article on the persisten lib.)
13:23:30 <int-e> Ok. I think I managed to decipher that. :)
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13:40:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: relcom: not found
13:40:37 <HackEgo> qlkzy_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:32:08 <Timwi> What’s up? Anything exciting going on in here? :)
14:32:47 <boily> welcome, to #esoteric. anything is possible on #esoteric. ♪
14:32:54 <boily> (sung to the voice of zombo.com)
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14:34:31 <Timwi> I take that as a ‘nothing’ :-D
14:35:28 <boily> mornings (EST) are usually very calm. you could peruse the PDF available in the /topic. when Excitenment begins, you'll know :D
14:36:12 <boily> kmc: pink floyd listener?
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14:37:14 <Timwi> found a grammar boo-boo in the PDF
14:38:14 <Timwi> page 5, “vizitu la Viki-o” should be “vizitu la vikion”, or at the very least “vizitu la Viki-on” (i.e., accusative) :-p
14:39:04 <boily> I'll be correcting that right away!
14:39:35 <Timwi> Egad, I just made a contribution :-p
14:42:04 <boily> updated to the latest HackEgo revision, along with your grammar fix.
14:43:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bot: not found
14:44:49 <Timwi> ... weird to say the least...
14:45:05 <int-e> wisdom takes a while to appreciate
14:45:19 * boily chuckles to himself ^^
14:46:35 <Timwi> You guys are strange
14:47:14 <int-e> Phew, I'm still not mentioned in there :)
14:47:59 <int-e> Timwi: But in any case, thanks for the compliment.
14:48:04 <boily> int-e: don't worry, the moment will come. muah ah ah.
14:51:21 <Timwi> Endofunctors ← I totally read that as “end of unctors”
14:52:30 <b_jonas> I think I could improve the game of life obfu by delaying the second part of the calculation by one cycle.
14:52:42 <b_jonas> Then I could get away with just one pack and one unpack in the loop.
14:52:46 <b_jonas> In http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395 that is
14:53:12 <b_jonas> I should try that at some point
14:53:34 <b_jonas> only then the unpack template would be quite long
14:58:26 <Timwi> Where does all that stuff in the PDF come from?
14:59:17 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
14:59:23 <fizzie> I guess it's mostly that? And quotes.
15:01:05 <boily> it's mostly that, quotes, and a little bit of personal creativity.
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15:42:35 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
15:42:43 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
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15:54:58 <Timwi> There is no lexande
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15:59:42 <boily> woohoo! I got my lockpicking kit!
15:59:59 <Timwi> Are you officially a locksmith now?
16:00:13 <boily> far from it. I kinda suck at picking, but it's fun!
16:09:43 <Timwi> I suck at picking too, except on people
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16:34:19 <oerjan> i don't think our ship can take that, kmc
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16:38:18 <oerjan> what is it with clients having autorejoin after kick anyway, it's like an option to refuse getting a hint
16:40:11 * oerjan sees no option for it in irssi, although obviously it can be scripted.
16:40:53 <Bike> in most of the channels i'm on getting kicked is a joke.
16:41:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: I donát think irssi does that automatically
16:41:26 <oerjan> ah the irssi faq: "That's evil and you shouldn't do it."
16:41:28 <b_jonas> well, maybe if the channel is set to autojoin?
16:41:39 <FireFly> or I guess I should say unfortunate
16:41:42 <Bike> you're terrible.
16:42:27 <b_jonas> hmm no good, I can't try on any channel where I'm autojoined
16:42:28 <int-e> irssi is scriptable. http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/autorejoin.pl
16:43:15 <b_jonas> well, if someone does that, ban then kick him
16:45:11 <oerjan> http://scripts.irssi.org/html/autorejoin.pl.html with formatting
16:47:03 <Timwi> <FireFly> Timhi ← ?
16:47:14 <oerjan> Bike: probably if there were such an option, it should take a channel list.
16:47:19 <Bike> also in my experience if someone's getting kicked seriously they're either (a) new to irc and don't have an autorejoin or (b) they know they pissed off the op who they probably know so they chill
16:49:46 <oerjan> "If you're joined to channels who kick people for fun, try changing channels or something."
16:50:12 <oerjan> oh the irssi script _does_ take a channel list.
16:50:37 <shachaf> oerjan: you kicked me for fun once
16:50:37 <Bike> hm i don't remember if i have autorejoin on, actually. oerjan can we find out
16:51:02 <oerjan> shachaf: AND I REGRETTED IT. i think, it's a bit vague.
16:51:14 <shachaf> p. sure you didn't regret it
16:51:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
16:51:24 -!- oerjan has kicked Bike O KAY.
16:51:28 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
16:51:30 <boily> dahl is good. I had some yesterday, along with way too much indian food.
16:51:33 <shachaf> can you op me while you're at it
16:51:44 <boily> can I be voiced? I miss being voiced.
16:51:59 <int-e> do re mi fa so la ti do!
16:52:07 <Timwi> Peing foiced is oferratet
16:52:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v boily.
16:52:35 <boily> shachaf: you vile punster.
16:52:47 <boily> meanwhile, HEAR THE VOICE OF CANADA! :D
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16:53:46 <boily> int-e: do ré mi fa sol la si do.
16:53:56 <oerjan> boily: wait what's this dahl you're speaking of. here in trondheim we have dahls.
16:54:31 <Timwi> In England they have dahlings
16:54:52 <boily> oerjan: “It also refers to the thick stew prepared from these pulses” ← https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dal
16:55:41 <oerjan> boily: ic. hopeless to google for a norwegian btw.
16:55:46 <boily> Timwi: let me ask you the The Question: what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
16:55:59 <Timwi> 47 and anywhere but USA
16:56:08 <oerjan> boily: oh wait it's actually the third hit if i spell it without a h.
16:56:15 <boily> already, Timwi feels like a regular of the chännel. I am disturbed.
16:56:30 <Timwi> You gave me the wrong stuff to read :/
16:56:36 <Timwi> I’m going to be sounding like that for the rest of today
16:56:55 <int-e> ruddy welcome Timwi
16:56:56 <ruddy> the joke is that already, timwi feels like
16:57:40 <oerjan> boily: Timwi _has_ been around before.
16:57:53 <Timwi> I wondered if anyone remembered :-p
16:58:12 <oerjan> Timwi: in fact i seem to have noticed you a lot on the net recently.
16:58:24 <oerjan> like, learning haskell and stuff.
16:58:25 <Timwi> Where else on the net have I been visible? :)
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17:26:55 <oerjan> <fizzie> I guess Finland was all a figment of someone's imagination. <-- now don't be too hasty, remember the bot is at canada hth
17:32:09 <mroman_> oerjan stalks Haskellers .
17:33:11 <oerjan> those on stack overflow and reddit, anyway.
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17:33:42 <mroman_> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boo_(programming_language))
17:34:01 <oerjan> although i never learned it.
17:35:17 <FreeFull> Like this: <http://www.example.com/>
17:35:36 <b_jonas> though I prefer double quotes, but angle quotes are ok as well
17:37:24 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*welcome*
17:37:26 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es
17:37:46 <oerjan> `run grep vizitu wisdom/*
17:37:49 <HackEgo> wisdom/bonvenon:Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
17:40:44 <FreeFull> b_jonas: I think angle quotes are part of some RFC involving URLs
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18:14:18 <shachaf> oerjan: how do you pronounce 'r'
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18:21:03 <boily> damned weather. now it's raining.
18:21:09 <metasepia> CYUL 091800Z 15015KT 1 1/2SM -SN OVC020 M00/M03 A2985 RMK NS8 SLP108
18:21:27 <boily> hm. still -SNing over at Dorval. probably going to update in 10 minutes or so.
18:21:43 <metasepia> EGNT 091750Z 21006KT 130V250 9999 BKN025 09/06 Q1023
18:22:03 <Taneb> I forget how to interpret that
18:24:53 <boily> report issued at 5:50pm UTC, south to west winds at 6 knots (~15 km/h), ground visibility OK, temperature is 9 °C with dew point at 6 °C, sea level air pressure at 1023 hPa.
18:26:19 <metasepia> EFHK 091820Z 01003KT 9999 FEW030 M11/M13 Q1026 NOSIG
18:26:24 <fizzie> The airport, it is back.
18:28:12 <boily> welcome back to the Real World!
18:28:28 <boily> (meanwhile, our METAR show a temperature of minus zero degrees!)
18:28:44 <fizzie> The temperature of cow.
18:33:05 <boily> `run echo 'A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees.' >wisdom/cow
18:34:51 <kmc> 1023 hellapascals
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18:48:57 <Bike> nerdpeeps if you could avoid blithely reducing the entirety of human thought to "the nervous system" that would be great. thanks in advance
18:49:37 <olsner> Bike: that's just your nervous system speaking
18:52:30 <boily> what's a nerdpeep?
18:52:56 <Bike> a peep who is a nerd
18:53:00 <Bike> congrats on your voice btw
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18:55:43 <boily> Bike: I embrace my role as the official representative at Canada.
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19:00:20 <Bike> wait what are you representing
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19:01:25 <boily> anything that can be at Canada, except Harper.
19:06:20 <boily> I also represent sending maply stuff over at other esötericians.
19:06:40 <Bike> can you get me some natural maple syrup
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19:08:25 <boily> Bike: I can. (pun very much intended.)
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19:14:34 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B3G8UGQ
19:15:18 <int-e> http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/331083855347
19:15:50 <boily> Bike: this is wrong. this is so very, very wrong.
19:16:00 <Bike> int-e: see, i can see people wanting that.
19:16:57 <int-e> So can I. It's a perfect gift in some circumstances where one might want to send a message.
19:17:42 <int-e> I suppose there is also a scientific interest in such fossils, but I don't see it.
19:18:13 <boily> for every weird thing, there'll be a scientist studying it. or at least a modern art critic discussing it.
19:18:36 <int-e> Sending messages ... you don't even have to give it away. "I love to look at this specimen, it reminds me of you."
19:20:39 <Bike> you don't see why a scientist would want to study poop?
19:23:55 <b_jonas> FreeFull: both double quotes and angle quotes I think
19:24:15 <int-e> Bike: Hmm. Put like that, yes I would. I don't see him or her shelving out money for it though, or put it on display in a collection.
19:24:45 <b_jonas> FreeFull: more imporatntly, they both double quotes and angle brackets can't be part of urls, whereas square brackets and parenthesis and dots and commas are so those shouldn't delimit urls
19:24:49 <int-e> To each his/her own.
19:24:55 <Bike> well, they might have to pay for it because they need a sample and the only one who's got it is selling on ebay :/
19:25:11 <Bike> display's a bit weird though yeah, usually displayed trace fossils are footprints and stuff
19:26:02 <mroman_> Well then I guess I use spaces for urls
19:26:36 <b_jonas> FreeFull: specifically http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2396.html under "E. Recommendations for Delimiting URI in Context
19:27:12 <metasepia> Your divination: "Parting" to "Skinning"
19:27:20 <b_jonas> FreeFull: also http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3986.html
19:27:36 <FreeFull> Whitespace is probably the most commonly used delimiter
19:28:17 <Bike> as evidenced by this conversation.
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19:29:15 <boily> i◇reject◇whitespace◇and◇substitute◇my◇own.
19:31:02 <kmc> `unidecode ◇
19:31:05 <b_jonas> int-e: I've downloaded the zeckendorf code and will test it some time later
19:31:19 <b_jonas> as in test automatically that it gives correct results
19:31:40 <int-e> b_jonas: note that I patched haskell-src-exts-qq
19:31:48 <int-e> b_jonas: (also on github)
19:32:18 <int-e> a quasi-quoter for haskell-src-exts
19:32:36 <b_jonas> I need that only for the template haskell part, not for the simps.hs, right?
19:32:59 <int-e> allows me to write [hs| x |] for var (Ident "x"), for example. And it pays of rather quickly.
19:33:19 <b_jonas> int-e: maybe mention that in the readme then
19:36:39 <int-e> [dec| __fun__ = $(ci) where n f c = f . (c:) |] is short for
19:36:42 <int-e> PatBind (SrcLoc {srcFilename = "<unknown>.hs", srcLine = 1, srcColumn = 2}) (PVar (Ident fun)) Nothing (UnGuardedRhs ci) (BDecls [FunBind [Match (SrcLoc {srcFilename = "<unknown>.hs", srcLine = 1, srcColumn = 17}) (Ident "n") [PVar (Ident "f"),PVar (Ident "c")] Nothing (UnGuardedRhs (InfixApp (Var (UnQual (Ident "f"))) (QVarOp (UnQual (Symbol "."))) (LeftSection (Var (UnQual (Ident "c"))) (QConOp (Special Cons))))) (BDecls...
19:38:01 <b_jonas> so your patch adds a quasiquote for patterns?
19:39:44 <int-e> (and yes, I should mention it in the readme; then again, I hope mboes looks at the github tickets from time to time.)
19:48:58 <boily> random translation question: are there any good .po editors out there except poedit?
19:50:57 <int-e> on an unrelated note, I love the phrase "time-honored atrocity". http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2013-12-07
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20:11:16 <boily> doesthiswork: apparently, you live in the middle of the atlantic ocean.
20:11:44 <boily> or, I am confused by google maps, and in fact you are in Guiné-Bissau.
20:12:18 <Bike> that's quite a confusion
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20:14:16 <metasepia> UUEE 092000Z 33006MPS 7000 -SN DRSN OVC012 M11/M13 Q1011 75520245 25520245 NOSIG
20:14:40 <metasepia> UUDD 092000Z 36005MPS 1800 SN BKN031 OVC100 M09/M11 Q1010 32590392 TEMPO 1500 SHSN SCT015CB
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20:21:57 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/RubE_On_Conveyor_Belts is listed in category "implemented"
20:22:06 <myname> where do i find said implementation?
20:22:49 <shachaf> kmc: should cabal's https library implement its own tls thing in pure haskell
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20:25:01 <nooodl> `ello is surprisingly flawless
20:25:03 <HackEgo> is surprisingly flawlessello
20:25:13 <fungot> boily: makes a heck of a time
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20:25:20 <boily> fungot: of course.
20:25:20 <fungot> boily: it works! ha ha ha ha
20:25:38 <int-e> ruddy welcome fungot
20:25:38 <fungot> int-e: from the file. if an arbitrary predicate applies to two objects, using currying to read the nicely structured data in them, naughty dog has several games involving scheme, texmacs uses scheme as an os
20:25:45 * boily stands clearly clear, far far away from fungot. “YOUR SENTIENCE WON'T GET ME HERE!”
20:25:45 <fungot> boily: so in a cup of hot chocolate. back in the day, conducted in the late eighties and early fnord
20:26:01 <int-e> wow, fungot almost made sense.
20:26:01 <fungot> int-e: fnord might not be
20:26:07 <fungot> shachaf: hi there metaperl. do you feel about that
20:26:14 <fungot> shachaf: five legs? where'd you go to a more abstract idea. the ' take' procedure does exactly that...
20:26:16 <int-e> The naughty dog spoiled it though.
20:27:10 <boily> shachaf is a mutant!
20:27:32 <shachaf> fungot is a mutant. boily is a mutant. ruddy is a mutant.
20:27:33 <fungot> shachaf: or better: hidden ones. like fnord or winblows. lots of changes
20:27:35 <ruddy> shachaf welcome ruddy
20:27:56 <boily> shachaf: talk for yourself, five-leg boy.
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20:29:32 <int-e> ruddy's repertoire is diminishing.
20:29:33 <ruddy> like, int-e's work??
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20:30:15 <int-e> No, ruddy, I had nothing to do with that.
20:30:37 <mrhmouse> I can probably fix that. ruddy, this may sting a bit...
20:31:15 <ruddy> how boring ... “green boring sponge”???
20:32:06 <FireFly> ruddy: yes, as boring as a green boring sponge.
20:32:07 <ruddy> how boring ... “green boring sponge”???
20:32:19 <FireFly> ruddy: I said yes, damn it
20:32:20 <ruddy> damn you ph damn straight, FireFly
20:32:35 <int-e> ruddy, be nice to FireFly.
20:32:49 <ruddy> close enough, mrhmouse..
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20:33:20 <int-e> ruddy, dance and sing for us, please
20:33:21 <ruddy> yes, ruddy taught int-e to sing i think
20:33:38 <olsner> fungot: do you like ruddy?
20:33:38 <fungot> olsner: now i am using it in a fontified buffer, and don't use erc ( so you could also look like fnord
20:33:48 <int-e> 20:27:29 <mrhmouse> kmc: yes, boily taught ruddy to sing I think
20:33:50 <ruddy> the 29 sing me a song ruddy sgeo
20:34:04 <mrhmouse> Hmm. Doesn't seem to have fixed the problem. ruddy: what do you think?
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20:35:16 <mrhmouse> Let's try this again. ruddy: how do you feel?
20:35:18 <ruddy> ucs-2 build let's see
20:35:32 <FireFly> ruddy: you want to use ucs-2 instead?
20:35:44 <int-e> ruddy, dance and sing for us, please
20:35:45 <ruddy> sing me yes, please
20:35:48 <FireFly> ruddy: what's that supposed to mean=!
20:35:49 <ruddy> it's isn't what's
20:36:03 <mrhmouse> Oh well. I'll just leave ruddy in its current state until a replacement can be manufactured.
20:36:06 <int-e> did you take a green sponge bath, ruddy?
20:36:18 <FireFly> ruddy: did you hear that you're going to get REPLACED?
20:36:27 <kmc> sent to the island of misfit toys
20:37:01 <FireFly> ruddy: is there anything wrong with me?
20:37:03 <ruddy> me? ask are you why speaking
20:37:06 <kmc> ruddy: sing to me, erbarme dich
20:37:07 <ruddy> @ask kmc kmc, dance yes, ruddy yes,
20:37:14 <metasepia> das < Erbarmens > Sie hatte Erbarmen mit ihm., Er kannte kein Erbarmen mehr.
20:37:36 <boily> I definitely have a problem with bots. is it because of my aura? my karma? my at canada?
20:37:46 <int-e> ruddy will be discarded like an old rag
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20:37:55 <kmc> How To Oerjan
20:38:04 <fungot> FireFly: sounds like a bug in the randomness of sarahbot." ie. to know it
20:38:05 <kmc> 100 times a day: Malarky or effective way?
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20:38:08 <int-e> wow, how did it come up with "oerjan" in that context?
20:38:26 <FireFly> fungot: no, nothing is buggy with you. You're perfectly fine the way you are.
20:38:26 <fungot> FireFly: file systems and operations on them... that makes things easier.
20:38:58 <mrhmouse> int-e: chance :) That's something to fix in future versions of ruddy
20:38:58 <FireFly> int-e: I think it just randoms a nick or something
20:39:00 <boily> @tell oerjan how do you oerjan?
20:39:01 -!- ruddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:39:07 <int-e> fungot: fine, fine, fine you are, says FireFly
20:39:07 <fungot> int-e: supposing you're right there. but my first computers were always discarded heh
20:39:34 <FireFly> fungot: is it fizzie's fault?
20:39:34 <fungot> FireFly: first of all, you should
20:40:01 <mrhmouse> FireFly: it is a random nick, but it should pull from the invoker's name and the bot's name first
20:40:03 <int-e> Is FireFly a PyroManiac?
20:40:29 -!- ruddy has joined.
20:40:30 <shachaf> is FireFly also a bot that talks when its name is mentioned
20:40:33 <mrhmouse> Sorry for the joinspam with ruddy..
20:40:35 <ruddy> sorry sorry sorry :p also sorry
20:40:38 <ais523> I thought FireFly was a person
20:40:58 <int-e> ais523: believe it or not I don't only mock bots :)
20:41:22 <kmc> fungot: sing to me
20:41:27 <kmc> fungot: WONTFIX
20:41:28 <fungot> kmc: mohkale being fair: fnord mohkale siellä oli fnord fnord fnord 99%cpu ( 0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k the best anime.
20:41:39 <kmc> (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k: the best anime.
20:41:48 <int-e> fungot: Segmentation fault.
20:41:48 <fungot> int-e: that's how it was implemented in smalltalk ( kinda fnord) there'll be in brainfuck. here's the first failure
20:42:22 <fungot> boily: sleep? what's that? is 50% a good thing if the header file says it returns " unspecified", following the r5rs model. it's a crying shame.
20:45:36 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Viivan loppu.).
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20:52:51 <kmc> clumps of fnord
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20:53:31 <kmc> fungot: puhutko suomea?
20:53:31 <fungot> kmc: the point is that the choice be arbitrary is a requisite skill for anything in particular
20:53:59 <kmc> if finnish is so great then why isn't it written using hangul
20:54:13 <shachaf> if hangul is so great why isn't it used to write finnish
20:54:24 <olsner> fungot: do you know hangul or finnish?
20:54:24 <fungot> olsner: undefined variable ' eval?'. detecting circular lists is probably unneccesary elsewhere.)
20:54:53 <Bike> fungot: what the living fuck is a light chain
20:54:53 <fungot> Bike: somewhere there. probably not what you meant." god.
20:55:09 <fungot> boily: it looks like arch++ that isn't vaporware. but mainly we make fun of java. tons of interesting esolangs come from gimmicks. it doesn't seem to be
20:57:25 <int-e> fungot's been trained well
20:57:26 <fungot> int-e: what exactly do they count as skyscrapers. heap management would have to say
20:57:39 <int-e> skyscraper heap management. yay!
20:58:46 <int-e> (if your garbage is piling up as high as a skyscraper, then your garbage collector is doing a bad job.)
21:00:05 -!- lushgreen has joined.
21:00:44 <boily> `relcome lushgreen
21:00:47 <HackEgo> lushgreen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover> god i love it when people blame bitcoin's failings on speculators
21:01:56 <boily> some day, I'll acquire bitcoins.
21:02:16 <ais523> I'm not sure if I ever will
21:02:26 <mrhmouse> I should have acquired bitcoins long ago when they were worthless..
21:02:29 <ais523> I'd probably use them if they really took off, but not otherwise
21:02:34 <Bike> some day, i will be acquired by a sapient blockchain
21:02:53 <boily> fungot: are you a sapient blockchain? do you plan to be one?
21:02:54 <fungot> boily: will go nuke some ' fnord for fnord? i think code goes to parsing " 2x 2" as " fnord")
21:03:01 <Bike> as foretold by the prophet yudkowsky
21:03:36 <boily> it is 2100. war is beginning. the fnords will be nuked, with funds from bitcoins.
21:03:55 <Bike> fungot: thoughts on yaoi
21:03:55 <fungot> Bike: except you need to get some opinions.)
21:04:33 <int-e> I wonder what fungot has to say about bitcoins. Or ruddy.
21:04:34 <fungot> int-e: and my network connection!
21:04:37 <ruddy> it i wonder say okay, int-e. okay, int-e. holy okay, int-e.
21:04:50 <ruddy> int-e, dammit int-e, you? int-e, indeed
21:04:59 <olsner> boily: the fnords will be nuked with fungots from bitcoins?
21:05:08 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: which failings?
21:06:08 <boily> olsner: something like that. I think. I believe the Bot knows what he's doing, so all be fine in the long run. perhaps. hth.
21:06:15 <boily> s/all be/all will be/
21:06:54 <int-e> The thing is designed to be hoarded. You can call that speculation if you like, but it all comes down to there being a very limited supply of new bitcoins.
21:07:20 <kmc> shachaf: how goes it
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21:08:23 <ais523> actually, the thing that's mindblowing for me is just how many people must be mining
21:08:36 <int-e> hah, you don't even need your own mining "rigs" anymore? http://www.butterflylabs.com/landing/slanding.php
21:08:40 <Bike> int-e: being designed to be hoarded strikes me as a flaw
21:08:44 <ais523> the block reward is 25BTC, every 10 minutes
21:08:54 <ais523> that's like $150000 every hour
21:09:13 <ais523> did it stop crashing, btw, or is it still falling?
21:09:29 <Bike> it crashed again?
21:10:13 <ais523> it fell by like 50% a couple of days ago
21:10:16 <ais523> I haven't checked since
21:10:24 <Bike> well, it doesn't look like it's crashing right now
21:10:37 <Bike> according to the 30d graph on bitcoinity anyway
21:10:46 <boily> “14:2. the ghouls, whose utter strangeness and their backsliding, I will love him, and have redeemed them, yet thou never gavest me a people”
21:11:01 <int-e> at 6000TH/s network speed that's 0.25 cents per hour, per GH/s.
21:11:52 <kmc> how does hosted mining make any sense
21:12:05 <int-e> kmc: it makes perfect sense for the hoster :)
21:12:11 <Bike> i don't get it
21:12:19 <kmc> int-e: explain?
21:12:25 <int-e> steady, real money, income
21:12:39 <kmc> I think it's actually because they offload the liquidity risk
21:12:43 <kmc> and people are bad at pricing that
21:13:06 <int-e> besides you can bet that they use whatever spare capacity they have for themselves
21:13:22 <Bike> what's liquidity again
21:13:26 <int-e> and then there is a huge potential trust issue. :)
21:13:35 <kmc> Bike: whether you can find someone willing to trade with you
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21:14:39 <kmc> I guess there's the exchange rate exposure as well
21:14:41 <Bike> so is liquidity risk instability in bitcoin trading prices
21:15:00 <kmc> Bike: I was thinking more like the risk that the exchanges stop operating due to regulatory nonsense or DDoS
21:15:21 <kmc> aiui doing USD transactions through MtGox as a US citizen is somewhat nontrivial now?
21:15:25 <ais523> Bike: liquidity's basically, if you want to exchange X of a commodity for something else (in either direction), how long will it take you / how much extra will you need to pay to convince someone to make the trade
21:15:45 <ais523> like, in a very illiquid commodity, you might need to accept very one-sided deals to obtain or get rid of it
21:15:52 <kmc> I wonder if you can derive an implied volatility for BTC/USD from the hosted mining price
21:15:59 <Bike> makes sense ais
21:16:00 <ais523> in a very liquid commodity, you can basically change it to other very liquid commodities and back again with no commision
21:16:13 <kmc> though it also depends on the network hash rate *and* the difficulty factor, and the latter is weird in financial terms because it changes in discrete jumps
21:16:25 <kmc> maybe some of those cards are actually running Monte Carlo bitcoin derivatives market simulations ;)
21:16:26 <int-e> right. the market price for btc may be $1k because there is one party willing to buy a single bitcoin for that price; if you have 1k of them that won't help you much.
21:17:31 <lushgreen> boily: thats for the crazies amongst us right?
21:17:44 <kmc> another theory is that they have unusually cheap electricity in their datacenter and this is a roundabout way of selling it
21:18:09 <kmc> my friend has free electricity at her apartment and so colocates mining ASICs for a 10% cut :)
21:19:17 <mrhmouse> kmc: how does one obtain this "free electricity"?
21:19:21 <boily> lushgreen: there are no crazies here, only mad people.
21:19:27 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
21:19:39 <kmc> mrhmouse: market failure
21:19:59 <Bike> i prefer 'epistemologically distinct', boily
21:20:07 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so, as that quotation from Alice in Wonderland shows us.
21:20:30 <boily> Bike: nomenclature is hard. let's go esolanging!
21:20:33 <kmc> oh ALSO they are selling year long contracts
21:21:19 <kmc> so if the price of BTC drops or the difficulty goes way up, they win big
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21:25:04 <Bike> "Other professional activities: [...] I once held a chair in the Physics Department at the University of Oxford, while the professor stood on it to get a book down from a high shelf."
21:25:36 <mrhmouse> Bike: twice now you've caused me to snicker in public
21:26:02 <Bike> why do academics have such weird hobbies
21:26:06 <Bike> this guy lists 'harpsichording'
21:26:39 <Bike> they are but man could you pick a snootier hobby if you tried
21:26:47 <boily> if only I could pick a harpsichord...
21:27:27 <olsner> anyone can pick a harpshichord
21:27:41 <HackEgo> Thanks, harpsichord. Tharpsichord.
21:28:01 * boily laughs stupidly. “Tharpsichord. He he he!”
21:28:04 <int-e> Wait a second. At $1k/btc, and 6TH/s network speed, a GH/s will give you an expected 365 * 24 * 6 / 6e6 * $1000 a year, or $8.76. They sell that for $10.83 a year. Clever :)
21:28:23 <Bike> 'etymology of the word network' shit i'm going to be thinking about this all day now
21:29:15 <int-e> (The network speed and its growth is crazy.)
21:29:17 <boily> net work, as opposed to gross work.
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21:31:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yo: not found
21:31:57 <kmc> Bike: i only play harpsichord while sailing my yacht
21:34:07 <Bike> "We are at a very lively technology park, and you would have at least daily meetings with me and very good computing facilities (i.e. linux)."
21:34:44 <Bike> this math nerd i'm stalking atm
21:35:26 <kmc> such linux
21:37:02 <Bike> hm the list of MSc projects looks halfway between that and a job listing
21:37:34 <Bike> "C++ programming is needed (as operator overloading is necessary)."
21:38:20 <shachaf> the joke is that you get to be the operator
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21:44:35 <ais523> the use of Linux on its own does not make a computing facility very good
21:47:03 <Bike> yeah i quoted it for a laff
21:51:00 <kmc> ask them which distro
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21:51:50 <Bike> i'll check the website, maybe there's something amusing
21:52:04 <Bike> i have no idea what the company does besides 'innovation'
21:52:47 <Bike> Major theme areas are; Future of the Internet and network transformation. Mobility and convergence [..]
21:53:45 <quintopia> maybe they are working on trade secrets, like how to unlock our matrix of solidity
21:53:50 <Bike> has anyone who's not an old person used the term 'young people'
21:54:34 <Bike> http://www.btplc.com/Innovation/Innovationnews/historyoffibre/history-of-fibre-story.jpg beard
21:54:40 <kmc> i do it but i'm probably an old person now
21:55:56 <Bike> i guess the parent company is a telecom
21:56:01 <quintopia> it always looks silly when they shave their mustaches and grow their beards
21:56:17 * kmc has tried it both ways and likes beard, no mustache better
21:56:32 <kmc> but these days i have neither
21:56:46 <Bike> you're not quite as 19th century as that dude anyway
22:09:21 <HackEgo> Thanks, theremin. Theremin.
22:09:24 <fizzie> That was kind of boring.
22:09:33 <kmc> `thanks Hanks
22:11:56 <fizzie> Re "what the company does besides 'innovation'", Adobe has a Disruptive Innovation Group, I saw a forwarded ad of them.
22:12:14 <fizzie> It's not entirely clear what they do, besides presumably innovation that happens to be disruptive.
22:12:37 -!- nisstyre has joined.
22:12:59 <fizzie> "-- a small team of engineers and entrepreneurs who develop new products with our research --"
22:15:45 <ion> Hmm. Where was the poem with ꙮ?
22:16:04 <Bike> the lion eating poet in the square den?
22:17:57 <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
22:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
22:18:22 <HackEgo> 1143) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
22:20:37 <FireFly> it renders correctly here anyway
22:21:45 <pikhq> Be pretty weird if it did.
22:22:09 <pikhq> IIRC Xchat's brain-damage is "Windows-1252 if it fits, otherwise UTF-8".
22:23:36 <olsner> I guess it worked too well
22:23:45 <ais523> pikhq: isn't pretty much any sequence of octets valid Windows-1252, though?
22:24:02 <zzo38> That is no good encoding, since it is conflicting.
22:24:27 <zzo38> (If you are only using ASCII then it doesn't matter, though)
22:24:34 <olsner> I think it sends latin1 (or cp1252) if possible, but decodes as utf8 if possible
22:24:39 <fizzie> ais523: I think that was for output.
22:25:14 <fizzie> Anyway, I remember it being configurable, just kinda awkward.
22:25:16 <zzo38> olsner: And it is conflicting.
22:25:39 <pikhq> Pretty brain-damaged.
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22:39:07 <shachaf> olsner: oh, that was about you, wasn't it
22:39:39 <olsner> hmm, I may have prompted you to write it
22:39:43 <olsner> not sure how much about me it is
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22:40:12 <shachaf> i think Taneb and i both wrote limericks
22:40:59 <shachaf> http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/13.06.05 confirms it
22:42:46 <Taneb> There was a man from CA, Who alleged that I one day, Wrote peculiar rhymes, Each with five lines, That kept some boredom at bay.
22:43:17 <Taneb> Hang on, what's the context
22:43:38 <quintopia> if you interpret it as canada, yes
22:46:08 <olsner> he went OPEN CHICKEN! according to his exit message
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22:48:57 <olsner> fungot: do you sometimes go open chicken too?
22:48:58 <fungot> olsner: a resource file would optimally be cross-platform too. :) in fact, utf-16.
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22:55:00 <oerjan> shachaf: as a flap with maybe a hint of trilling
22:55:17 <lambdabot> boily said 2h 16m 16s ago: how do you oerjan?
22:55:34 <shachaf> oerjan: is it the front or back of your tongue that's making the sound
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22:57:19 <oerjan> something alveolar/dental never can quite remember the subtle distinctions there
22:57:43 <shachaf> do some norwegians do an uvular trill or something like that
22:57:49 <oerjan> yes, in the southwest.
22:57:50 <shachaf> or the french thing, whatever that's called
22:58:09 <oerjan> our prime minister would be a prime example.
22:58:39 <oerjan> (she's from bergen, which have been where this entered norway)
22:59:08 <oerjan> FireFly: it's essentially the same as in swedish.
22:59:24 <shachaf> kmc: what does . at the beginning of a tweet mean
22:59:27 <oerjan> as in, i cannot notice a difference.
22:59:39 <zzo38> Now this multiplication uses three tables, and it has 959 bytes and 286 cycles (it doesn't vary, since there is no branching involved).
22:59:44 <oerjan> including skåne r ~ bergen r
23:00:41 <kmc> shachaf: if you start a tweet with @username then it's only visible to people who follow both of you
23:01:16 <oerjan> oslo, trondheim, and up north where i'm from all use the trilled one, which is like the common swedish one afaik
23:03:29 <kmc> sometimes i use → instead of . to be cool
23:04:26 <oerjan> shachaf: incidentally the pronunciation i get from google translate is essentially correct wrt each phoneme afaict, but the overall accent is slightly wrong (close to how my name would be pronounced in oslo, but slightly wrong even for that.)
23:05:51 <oerjan> while this that elliott linked me to the other day would be a typical southwest pronunciation http://www.forvo.com/word/%C3%B8rjan/
23:06:09 <olsner> kmc: hmm, how did you figure that out?
23:06:53 <oerjan> hm i notice he marked his position on the map there, more south than west.
23:07:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: insanetemp: not found
23:07:28 <oerjan> "My Norwegian accent is from the south of Norway and is not very different from the standard Norwegian except for the -r (which is southern and is called "voiced uvular fricative" in English)."
23:11:08 <shachaf> oh, uvular fricative, that was it
23:13:59 <oerjan> i suppose uvular trill is only for very special people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFtGfyruroU
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23:19:03 <oerjan> "In Western Europe, a uvular trill pronunciation of rhotic consonants spread from northern French[citation needed] to several dialects and registers of Basque,[2] Catalan, Danish, Dutch, German, Hebrew, Judaeo-Spanish, Norwegian, Occitan, Portuguese and Swedish. However, not all of these remain a uvular trill today."
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23:26:17 <zzo38> Currently the Unhuman Alliance Antechamber and Unhuman Alliance Main Hall lack descriptions in the ifMUD. Do you have suggestions for those descriptions?
23:27:18 <zzo38> (Currently it just says "You see nothing special.")
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23:32:57 <choupy> im looking for a very reliable brainfuck interpreter
23:33:52 <zzo38> What programs are you intending to run on it?
23:34:15 <choupy> im participating in some kind of CTF and i must execute a brainfuck program i found somewhere
23:34:28 <choupy> it's probably going to output a lot of stuff
23:36:20 <choupy> that thing is way too big for a web-based solution imo
23:37:06 <choupy> most lines are 2 chars long afaict
23:37:44 <nooodl> oh. i was expecting the scariest brainfuck program ever
23:38:51 <nooodl> here's some implementations with benchmarks http://sree.kotay.com/2013/02/implementing-brainfuck.html
23:39:01 <choupy> thanks mate ill have a look
23:43:33 <choupy> yeah im not planning on reading it :D
23:45:00 <pikhq> nooodl: Any source?
23:45:23 <choupy> found happiness on nooodl's link, thanks again
23:45:53 <nooodl> it was just linked on the esolang wiki's brainfuck page
23:46:41 <int-e> zzo38: anyway, thanks. it's funny to see a mud that was pretty much conceived as an elaborated chatroom rather than evolving into one.
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23:48:18 <zzo38> int-e: Well there still are several places in there; some people do nothing other than communication but others also create various locations and objects and program stuff too. In fact there are 2011 locations in ifMUD so far.
23:48:34 <zzo38> And anyone with an account can add some more.
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23:50:05 <int-e> zzo38: Yes, I got that. What I meant is that in the couple of muds that I know people eventually grow bored of playing the game, and just stick around for company.
23:50:10 <zzo38> Unhuman Alliance is one of the areas in my apartment (11011; go south and enter Edifice Towers and then go upstairs to the top floor to the east hallway, there is the entrance to my apartment). There are several other things there too.
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23:51:38 <zzo38> There are a lot of channels for communication, and these are accessible anywhere so you don't need to be in the lounge or any other specific place to communicate.
23:53:07 <zzo38> You can get bored, although there are still channels and anyone can add stuff themself rather than having to only use what is already there, so it is much more open.
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00:40:27 <oerjan> hm int-e doesn't look overly present either.
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00:43:59 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `repeated' (imported from Control.Lens)
00:44:03 <oerjan> > var$"wh"++repeat 'e'
00:44:04 <lambdabot> wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...
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00:50:59 <oerjan> @tell myname <myname> where do i find said implementation? <-- it says you have to email immibis hth
00:51:38 <oerjan> (i think i saw immibis around on the net recently too.)
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01:15:13 <kmc> typeof(*p) *_________p1 = (typeof(*p)*__force )ACCESS_ONCE(p);
01:15:22 <kmc> http://livegrep.com/search/linux?q=\b_________[a-z]
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01:17:42 <kmc> \rainbow{LINUX}
01:18:09 <kmc> want to make a distro called Jesus Rainbow Linux?
01:18:11 <Bike> is "typeof(*p) *" different from "typeof(p)" given that p is a pointer
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01:19:50 <kmc> maybe it's for discarding cv-qualifiers
01:20:01 <kmc> meaning const and volatile
01:20:33 <Bike> oh cool the gcc example of typeof is just an avoiding multiple evaluation thing :/
01:21:15 <Bike> " typeof (typeof (char *)[4]) y;" also
01:21:24 <kmc> and what the christ is __force for
01:21:26 <kmc> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v3.11/tools/perf/util/include/linux/compiler.h#L18
01:21:35 <kmc> maybe it's an annotation to Sparse, like __user?
01:21:57 <kmc> Bike: what
01:22:12 <Bike> it is equivalent to char *y[4];, supposedly
01:23:28 <Bike> docs don't mention const or volatile though
01:25:10 <kmc> also if p is an array type
01:25:27 <kmc> then typeof(*p)* will be a pointer and not an array, I expect
01:25:36 <Bike> i don't know shit about arrays :(
01:25:41 <Bike> (or C in general)
01:26:14 <kmc> they say the first step to truly understanding C is understanding that arrays are just pointers, and the second step is understanding that arrays are not just pointers
01:26:46 <kmc> (it's more correct to say that array types decay into pointer types in certain circumstances)
01:27:37 <shachaf> I think there are only two non-decay things you can do with an array.
01:28:09 <shachaf> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/array-pointer.html says so.
01:28:11 <Bike> and now typeof
01:28:19 <kmc> and _Alignof prolly
01:28:26 <kmc> for int a[10], a and &a have the same integral value, but not so for int *a
01:29:00 <shachaf> I,I the first step to understanding C is understanding that functions are just pointers to functions
01:29:07 <kmc> oh it's alignof(type) but _Alignas
01:29:42 <kmc> shachaf: :3
01:29:57 <Bike> well that's not too hard to understand
01:30:30 <shachaf> i like how the f in f(x) isn't a function but a function pointer
01:31:13 <kmc> i like how C has function types and they're almost useless until C++11 std::function comes along
01:31:38 <shachaf> what can you even do with them
01:31:44 <shachaf> you can get a sizeof error
01:32:01 <kmc> typedef void fty(int); fty *ptr = whatever
01:32:08 <Bike> are they not checked?
01:32:17 <kmc> could be useful for "poor man's templates" i.e. macros generating data structure code
01:32:50 <kmc> like all this stuff https://github.com/CentOS/ksplice/blob/master/objcommon.h
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01:42:25 <kmc> i did typedef void ty(int); int main() { ty x; }
01:42:38 <kmc> and I was expecting it to complain that a function type is incomplete
01:42:41 <kmc> but actually it's fine!
01:42:47 <kmc> it just declares (locally) a function named x
01:42:54 <elliott> you can do that without the typedef, too
01:43:01 <elliott> weird old code declares printf and stuff that way
01:43:11 <kmc> compilers hate this 1 weird old trick to declare printf
01:43:26 <kmc> declares it with extern linkage i guess, because that's the default for functions, never mind what syntax you use
01:43:27 <pikhq> Note that in standard C you can only have local declarations, not local definitions of functions.
01:43:59 <kmc> I knew about local function declarations but had forgotten they can look like "ordinary" decls using typedef
01:44:19 <kmc> also these are the source of one of C++'s many syntactic warts
01:44:53 <kmc> is Foo x(bar) a declaration of a function or a definition of a Foo object with a constructor argument?
01:46:52 <kmc> i think it's the former and you have to use Foo x = Foo(bar) for the latter
01:46:53 <kmc> but i forgot
01:48:04 <elliott> it depends on what Foo is I think
01:48:21 <kmc> like all of C++
01:49:00 <HackEgo> 1143) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
01:49:14 <HackEgo> 1143) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
01:49:18 <kmc> but ꙮ is alphanumeric!!
01:49:36 <kmc> Category: Letter, Other [Lo]
01:49:36 <Bike> scandal rocks the unicode poetry establishment
01:50:02 <Bike> "the scoundrel doesn't even know his general categories", sources complain
01:50:08 <HackEgo> <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
01:50:25 <oerjan> i am just surprised that one wasn't already added somewhere.
01:51:04 * kmc fucking off now, ttyl
01:51:13 <Bike> have fucking fun
01:51:19 <oerjan> kmc: hm is it Other just because there is only one instance so no way to make an upper/lower case pair?
01:51:39 <oerjan> presumably it's lower case in principle.
01:52:28 <oerjan> then wtf does Other mean.
01:52:47 <Bike> CYRILLIC LETTER MAJUSCULE MULTIOCULAR O WITH COMBINING PENIS ABOVE
01:53:32 <Bike> oerjan: looks like lowercase is Ll, no
01:54:11 <oerjan> so Lo is just an abbreviation for the stuff before.
01:54:25 <Bike> for letter other, yeah
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02:11:13 * oerjan wonders what boily will say to having to get multiocular o into the pdf
02:11:31 <oerjan> i suspect quebecois swearing.
02:15:25 <oerjan> <olsner> I think it sends latin1 (or cp1252) if possible, but decodes as utf8 if possible <-- i assume this means it can encode it into something it decodes wrongly
02:17:30 <shachaf> I thought that case was handled?
02:17:43 <shachaf> (Sending something that can be wrongly decoded into UTF-8.)
02:20:54 <oerjan> i suppose it might be rare
02:22:05 <oerjan> > chr <$> [234, 153, 174]
02:22:29 <oerjan> > var $ chr <$> [234, 153, 174]
02:25:00 <oerjan> hm i suppose it's in the control code part
02:26:03 <oerjan> would someone with xchat try and copy/paste that
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02:37:33 <quintopia> why can't we just add cencoding control codes to irc the same way mirc added color codes
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02:38:02 <Bike> how would you encode the codes
02:38:27 <quintopia> they would be the first byte in a message. no encoding necessary.
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02:48:24 <ion> http://theshovel.com.au/2013/12/09/man-forced-to-watch-concert-through-his-own-eyes/
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02:54:22 <ion> “including some odd claims such as that the watch had 1080p resolution (huh? on a watch?!?)” Comments that will amuse in 15 years. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131207/02231325495/kickstarter-projects-getting-called-out-just-reselling-products-china.shtml
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03:13:40 <kmc> is Lambdabot 6:24 a bible verse
03:18:35 <kmc> The Good Book 3.0
03:22:07 <doesthiswork> dammit kmc you beat me to the futurama reference
03:22:12 <ion> Related? http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/
03:23:10 <zzo38> Has the Futurama theorem been used for anything outside of Futurama?
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03:23:26 <Bike> is that the one about body switching
03:24:23 <Slereah> More generally it's about permutations that you can only do once per pair
03:27:47 <doesthiswork> The mouth of strange women is a deep and wonderful property of computation.
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03:29:37 <Bike> fiora prime, destroyer of worlds
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03:30:36 <kmc> there can be only one
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03:33:57 <doesthiswork> actually I'm rather fond of multiple return values
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03:36:01 <ion> As in a tuple? Or as in generators?
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03:37:53 <Bike> hey Fiora remember when i was talking about bifurcation? get a load of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Verhulst-Mandelbrot-Bifurcation.jpg
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03:40:17 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set#Main_cardioid_and_period_bulbs more deets
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03:41:49 <Slereah> Why do they call them cardioids
03:41:53 <Slereah> When they are clearly butt shaped
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03:42:44 <Bike> man i think i need a copy of counterexamples in topology just to understand all the definitions
03:43:01 <Slereah> I have a great counterexample book
03:43:12 <Slereah> It's just a big book of 500 counterexamples in math
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04:49:00 <quintopia> Slereah: does it tell what they are countereamples for
04:49:18 <quintopia> because i think it would be more awesome if it didn't
04:49:34 <quintopia> just a list of numbers you should test your conjecture on
04:50:22 <Bike> "14235. Good luck, champ."
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04:51:20 <Slereah> Like the first chapter is counterexamples of set theory
04:52:02 <Slereah> Then group theory, rings and fields, vector spaces, real numbers, series, real functions, integrals and so on
04:53:30 <Bike> hm, i can improvise for sadly few of those
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04:54:24 <Slereah> I'm disappointed, this channel does not exist
04:54:54 <Slereah> Well, if you want some of the counterexamples
04:55:02 <Bike> whether a barber cuts their own hair (naïve set theory), pi (all reals are algebraic), lim n->\infty x -> x^n (the limit of a series of continuous functions is continuous)
04:55:33 <Slereah> 1) forall x exists y P(x,y) is true while exists y forall x P(x,y) is false
04:56:20 <Slereah> 2) forall x (P(x) and Q(x)) is true and forall x (P(x) and forall x Q(x)) is false
04:56:40 <Bike> quantification over predicates :o
04:57:42 <quintopia> Slereah: no which P is a countereample
04:59:31 <Slereah> Oh wait, there's a shorter one
05:00:02 <Slereah> Basically it's P(x,y) being x <= y
05:00:47 <Slereah> It's true that for all x, there's a y that is bigger
05:01:01 <Slereah> But if you switch the forall and existence, it means that there's a y bigger than all x's
05:02:12 <Slereah> On the other hand, it is always true that exists y forall x P(x,y) -> forall x exists y P(x,y)
05:02:17 <Slereah> but it doesn't work the other way around
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05:33:47 <Sgeo_> Evil popup had a too-long message on the navigate away event (or whatever it's called) making it impossible to close
05:33:52 <Sgeo_> Had to kill Chrome
05:34:48 <Bike> update on using C++ for operator overloading: this paper defines a power series class for which & is composition
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05:54:30 <zzo38> Are the aces high in some games due to the French Revolution?
05:56:49 <zzo38> I think you can toggle the zero flag in a 6502 code by: PHP PLA AND #2 sequence of instructions. Are there better ways?
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06:46:33 <zzo38> Is there a function in standard C libraries to test if a file is seekable or not?
06:48:15 <myname> "if you don't know, just try"
06:49:31 <zzo38> I want it to work on Windows as well as Linux (and even on FreeBSD, Mac OS X, etc); the reason I wanted to know is if you are redirecting input from a file, it can just skip over the part it isn't using instead of reading and ignoring it, which it would be if it is a pipe or a serial port or something else like that.
06:52:08 <Bike> ftell and ebadf are standard c right
06:52:17 <lifthrasiir> then directly invoking fseek and testing for its errno should work
06:52:31 <lifthrasiir> though I question the conformance level of msvcrt...
06:52:55 <Bike> oh, no badf in errno
06:56:57 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: well, ISO C99 does not have a specific errno for it, but it clearly indicates that fseek can fail and return -1 on that case, so checking for fseek's result seems to be sufficient
06:57:40 <lifthrasiir> if fseek failed due to other problems, then you have much more issues to worry about
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07:43:56 <fizzie> POSIX suggests that fseek should fail with ESPIPE if the underlying stream is pipe/FIFO/socket, and EBADF only if "The file descriptor underlying stream is not an open file descriptor"; and anyway I suppose ftell can work even when fseek doesn't. (But the strategy of just trying fseek and giving up if it returns -1 sounds reasonable.)
07:46:31 <zzo38> If you are only seeking forward then it can just read and ignore however many bytes it would otherwise skip, if it is unable to just skip them.
07:48:37 <kmc> p.o.s.i.x.
08:24:03 <shachaf> http://www.cs.au.dk/~gerth/slides/cphstl06.pdf is unrelated to what I was looking for, but interesting.
08:24:18 <zzo38> The king that is allowed to move any distance (like a queen does) rather than just one, may be called by different names in different chess variants; which names do you know? I have seen "King Battler" and "Royal Queen"; I have used "Long King" in some of my own games.
08:25:00 <shachaf> zomg i invented the name "royal queen" more than a decade ago
08:25:23 <shachaf> first in hebrew and then translated to english
08:25:36 <shachaf> and i think it was for that piece
08:25:50 <shachaf> also later other pieces that gained the ability to teleport and all sorts of things
08:26:38 <zzo38> Yes, that is kind of clear that such name is probably for that king of piece. (However, I prefer "long king"; some others prefer "king battler")
08:26:50 <zzo38> What is other pieces gained the ability to teleport and what other things are they?
08:26:51 <kmc> isn't "royal queen" kind of redundant?
08:27:11 <shachaf> kmc: well it was vaguely more like "kingly queen" in the original
08:27:16 <quintopia> how does one even win a game with long kings. seems like it greatly reduces the number of possible mates
08:27:18 <shachaf> though maybe it ought to have been a "queenly king"
08:27:24 <shachaf> or maybe something else, i don't remember
08:27:40 <shachaf> also what's with using "ly" to make adjectives what is that even for
08:28:02 <zzo38> quintopia: Probably if other pieces can also have more powers (and/or more pieces); or if the game has both a long king and a short king and capturing either one of them wins, then it is another way.
08:28:34 <shachaf> zzo38: i mean that "royal queen" later meant a more powerful piece that was able to teleport
08:28:42 <shachaf> made the game very short because it was checkmate on the first move
08:30:12 <zzo38> O, yes, clearly... unless some restrictions are applied to such thing (some games do have such a thing)
08:31:04 <quintopia> if you teleport you can't caputre on that move
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08:32:42 <zzo38> Yes, that is one way, it works
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09:20:45 <zzo38> My brother has once made up a chess variant "bland chess", while waiting in a restaurant. It is a chess game with no diagonal moves (knight moves are still allowed, though). That means pawns cannot capture, queens are same as rooks, bishops cannot move at all, and kings have orthogonal moves only.
09:21:33 <quintopia> so the bishops just sit there hoping to get captured so they can get out of everyone's way
09:21:55 <quintopia> 'i'll take your queen bishop if you'll get rid of my damned bishop'
09:22:04 <myname> quintopia: one could add a rule to capture pieces of the own fraction
09:22:30 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, it does work like that way (although "deals" like that aren't binding any more than they are in normal chess).
09:23:23 <quintopia> myname: that seems actually interesting
09:23:32 <zzo38> Because of the knights, the game actually works kind of OK.
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09:27:54 <Timwi> I guess I managed to survive the night
09:28:13 <zzo38> But then later on I had another idea I made a game "unbland chess", where the pieces can each move diagonally once per game, and using cards (which isn't visible to opponent) you can replenish the power to move diagonally.
09:30:49 <zzo38> The cards are four of each numbered 1 to 8. You start with two cards and can have up to three cards in your hand at once; you pick one up if you give check or capture an opponent's piece. You can play two cards, choose one to correspond to the rank and one to correspond to the file, and one of your own pieces that has already move diagonal which is standing on that cell, now regains the diagonal ability.
09:31:37 <myname> make a website with detailed explanation
09:31:54 <shachaf> What happens if you already have three cards?
09:32:05 <myname> also, have you ever played knightmare chess?
09:32:05 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you do not pick up another card.
09:32:11 <zzo38> myname: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSunblandchess
09:32:15 <shachaf> Can you pick one up and then choose which to discard?
09:32:18 <zzo38> myname: No, I have not played knightmare chess
09:33:07 <Timwi> Do you get to pick up two if you check by taking a piece? (assuming you have only 0 or 1)
09:33:25 <shachaf> You can also get a card by promoting a piece.
09:33:39 <shachaf> What if you take a piece, check, *and* promote all in the same turn?
09:34:02 <Timwi> (whoo, I’ve actually done that before)
09:34:18 <shachaf> Can you take two cards, use them to replenish diagonal powers, and then take another card?
09:34:56 <Timwi> Also, can I use just one card (e.g. the 1) to diagonalize a piece on the diagonal (in this case, A1)?
09:34:57 <zzo38> Timwi: It wasn't clear, but now I fixed it; now it says that you can.
09:35:10 <zzo38> And no, you cannot use just one card to diagonalize a piece on the diagonal.
09:36:05 <zzo38> I also fixed it so that the 1 corresponds to *your* first rank (rather than only white), so that it is more symmetric.
09:36:14 <shachaf> You have to replenish diagonal powers *instead* of moving.
09:36:44 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, you have to instead of moving. And, yes if you have no cards and you capture, check, and promote on one turn, you can pick up three.
09:36:46 <shachaf> I thought you could play it as an instant.
09:39:21 <Timwi> Yeah, I thought of it as an instant too
09:39:56 <Timwi> We should have chess in which every piece has a power and toughness
09:40:14 <Timwi> and you can play spells to change them, or to give them Flying or First strike
09:40:18 <zzo38> Yes, we could make up such chess variant like that too perhaps
09:40:30 <Timwi> I can’t believe I never thought of this before
09:41:08 <zzo38> Flying pieces is allowed to move past non-flying pieces as if those other pieces isn't in the way.
09:41:43 <b_jonas> hmm, I thought for a moment that you were talking about Lambda: the Gathering "http://icfpc2011.blogspot.jp/2011/06/task-description-contest-starts-now.html"
09:41:46 <Timwi> Pieces with Trampling also damage the king even if not attacking it
09:43:35 <lambdabot> zzo38 says: Such as, we try to make something similar to a combination of Haskell, C, BLISS, TeX, WEB, Prolog, INTERCAL, and Magic: the Gathering; and then make it with many things omitted such as Unicode syntax, layout, do-notation, list comprehensions; and add in macros and stuff, and then make up something new......
09:44:10 <shachaf> zzo38: How do you propose to combine Haskell with Magic: the Gathering?
09:46:48 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not quite sure, but something where effects can affect other effects (whether they are represented using monads or classes or something else)
09:47:54 <zzo38> These effects are effected similar to Magic: the Gathering effects, so not quite like I/O effects and those things.
09:51:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't Lambda: the Gathering almost that?
09:52:09 <shachaf> But zzo38 said that beforehand; I was wondering what he meant.
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10:11:53 <zzo38> Make a chess variant involving INTERCAL somehow.
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10:14:19 <b_jonas> that sounds easy. DO ABSTAIN FROM PROMOTING TO KNIGHT
10:15:36 <b_jonas> afterall, chess is binary because it has 8 times 8 squares and intercal is binary
10:16:28 <b_jonas> also, in chess+intercal you don't move your pieces to another square, you bring your pieces FROM another square
10:17:16 <b_jonas> even from a computed square
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11:11:32 <fizzie> Huh, weird. This four-physical-cores-but-eight-logical-processors-due-to-hyperthreading box has, according to /proc/cpuinfo, the same physical core running at two different clock rates. That doesn't sound possible.
11:12:35 <Fiora> maybe it was read at twwo differnt times?
11:13:07 <fizzie> It doesn't do frequency scaling at *that* high rate, AFAIK.
11:13:25 <Fiora> like just by coincidence maybe? or does it happen every time
11:14:41 <fizzie> There seems to be a pattern here.
11:16:58 <fizzie> The logical numbers go from 0..7, where "core id" fields go 0, 1, 2, 3, 0, 1, 2, 3; with 4 CPU-intensive parallel tasks, it seems that (in repeated samplings) if the entry for a core in the first half has the highest clock rate, the corresponding entry in the second half has the lowest, and vice versa.
11:18:05 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/aaIX -- three random samples.
11:19:03 <fizzie> Must be some kind of a thing.
11:19:19 <fizzie> (With eight tasks, all 8 logical CPUs are listed as 3.3 GHz.)
11:22:01 <fizzie> "Is Enhanced Intel Speedstep® Technology compatible with Intel Hyper-Threading Technology?
11:22:04 <fizzie> Yes. The operating system sees two virtual processors. Requests to change the power state are prioritized between each virtual processor by the BIOS and the operating system; the power state will default to that of the virtual processor requesting the highest state."
11:23:52 <fizzie> I guess it makes sense (fsvo), then, that for four active tasks it'd schedule them on different physical cores (but somewhat randomly on which HT half of a core), and then request the lowest speed for the "idle" half, even if (in reality) it'll still run at the higher clock rate.
11:24:05 <fizzie> Just makes this cpufreq indicator thing somewhat silly.
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13:02:57 <fizzie> !SENT_START MR. K. N. C. N. J. AND SHOW ALL ITS U. S. AND ENDS !SENT_END
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13:09:17 <fizzie> "int *p; p = arr; Now we can access every element of array arr using p++ to move from one element to another. NOTE : You cannot decrement a pointer once incremented. p-- won't work."
13:09:41 <fizzie> (##c is commenting on some worst-C-advice-on-the-net site.)
13:14:11 <fizzie> Given int sum(int arr[]); and int sum(int *ptr); "one will lead to call by value and the other is used to perform call be reference".
13:14:29 <fizzie> It's like some sort of an attempt to be most wrong.
13:16:51 <int-e> arrays are pointers. except they are not. didn't we just mention this yesterday?
13:17:10 <int-e> I guess it comes up again and again and again.
13:18:16 <int-e> Oh, as a remedy for the p-- problem, let's all use --p.
13:21:04 <fizzie> "When an array is declared, compiler allocates sufficient amount of memory to contain all the elements of the array. Base address which gives location of the first element is also allocated by the compiler. -- Here variable arr will give the base address, which is a constant pointer pointing to the element, arr[0]."
13:21:27 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, it's (almost) describing B's arrays.
13:22:40 <int-e> Bah, they are trying to sort-of explain lvalues and rvalues without even distinguishing between left-hand and right-hand sides of assignments.
13:23:41 <int-e> they mention i[a] but they get p-- wrong?
13:24:22 <int-e> oh it gets better. multidimensional arrays. good one.
13:25:07 <fizzie> Well, you know. "void type means no value. This is usually used to specify the type of functions."
13:29:04 <int-e> Oh. No, the multi-dimensional array thing is probably fine. It's just that *(*(ptr + i) + j) looks entirely wrong to me.
13:30:34 <fizzie> There was another similiar site the other month, and that one also used < foo.h> (with the space) for standard includes, which puzzled me then and puzzles me still.
13:30:51 <fizzie> It could be some sort of a CMS markup workaround thing, I guess. In theory.
13:32:38 <fizzie> Given the lead-in text ("Lets see how we can make a pointer point to such an array --") I was sort of expecting to find something about the admittedly gnarly-looking pointer-to-array declarators.
13:34:02 <fizzie> int arr[2][3] = {{1,2,3},{4,5,6}}; int (*p)[3] = arr; int (*q)[2][3] = &arr; p[1][2] == (*q)[1][2]; /* something about this sort of stuff */
13:35:01 <int-e> int a<:??) = ??<1,2,3%>;
13:35:53 <fizzie> There should be some kind of a law about mixing di- and trigraphs.
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13:37:25 <int-e> "warning: trigraph ??< ignored, use -trigraphs to enable" - boring!
13:39:14 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/GXCQ that one might possibly the most confusion-inducing trigraph.
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13:50:47 <int-e> Once during a mathematical conversation with a student, Alexander Grothendieck was asked to consider an example of a prime number.
13:50:50 <int-e> "You mean an actual prime number?" The student replied, "Yes, an actual prime."
13:50:53 <int-e> Grothendieck then said, "Alright then, take 57".
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14:08:25 <fizzie> AIUI, it's a sign of a real mathematician to not be so overly concerned about numbers.
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14:12:23 <int-e> AFAIU Grothendieck in particular is famous for very deep, abstract results in mathematics, and solving even concrete problems on a slightly higher level of abstraction than most of his colleagues would consider in approaching those problems.
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14:13:30 <boily> good unsecure morning!
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14:14:53 <metasepia> EFHK 101350Z 18014KT 3500 -SN BKN006 OVC010 00/M01 Q1024 TEMPO 2500
14:20:33 <metasepia> CYUL 101400Z 26015G24KT 15SM FEW035 FEW180 BKN240 M04/M10 A2988 RMK SC1AC2CI5 SC TR SLP121
14:21:30 <boily> I tried my new lockpicking kit yesterday at home. I suddenly realised I don't have no security at all...
14:21:45 <fizzie> Isn't it good to not have no security?
14:22:26 <Bike> did you also try out your throwing rocks through windows kit
14:22:47 <fizzie> (Do the rocks come in a handy carrying case?)
14:23:41 <Bike> they also come with reusable tape for attaching threatening messages
14:25:07 <boily> fizzie: well. I kinda overnegativised my sentence...
14:25:45 <boily> Bike: I only use organic, ISO 14001 certified window rocks, with locally produced vegan reusable tape.
14:33:30 <monotone> boily: Is the tape gluten-free?
14:36:22 <boily> I ran out of gluten free tape. anyone who can lend me a llama for my next pilgrimage to the Sacred Gluten Free Tape Tibetan Kibbutz?
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16:02:10 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
16:05:03 <boily> why. why must you all make my archival life so difficult.
16:05:37 <int-e> Are you trying to typeset that in LaTeX?
16:05:51 * int-e eyes(sic!) boily suspiciously.
16:06:21 * boily wields his mapole.
16:08:05 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
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16:14:22 <int-e> \def\eye{\hbox to 0pt{\hss${\circ}\kern-.38em{\cdot}$\hss}}A\hbox{\eye\kern.18em\raise.32em\eye\lower.32em\eye\kern.18em\eye\kern.18em\raise.32em\eye\lower.32em\eye\kern.18em\eye}B
16:14:30 <int-e> boily: it's not perfect, but it's a start ;-)
16:15:00 <boily> multiocular fungot, batman!
16:15:01 <fungot> boily: there are no problems
16:15:11 <boily> fungot: of course there are problems. but there are solutions!
16:15:11 <fungot> boily: what is " catamorphic"? -g ( was that a self-referential quote?
16:15:29 <boily> int-e: do you have a github account?
16:16:30 <boily> int-e: felgenhauer?
16:17:18 <boily> ♪ you are promoted to cocoonspirator. ♪
16:17:51 <boily> if you want to commit that over to the repo, and tag your commit with issue #3, that'd be nice :D
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16:27:23 <int-e> hmm. let's see if my latex installation is even up to the task
16:34:55 <int-e> boily: there you go
16:35:30 <int-e> boily: though maybe such definitions should go to a separate file. anyway, your turn.
16:37:52 <boily> let's see how it fares...
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16:41:41 <boily> IT'S MULTIOCULARLY ALIIIIIVE!
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16:44:31 <int-e> hmm. a bit more space, perhaps.
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16:51:19 <Bike> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LAdbq5aRS6g/ScjY2VSXSXI/AAAAAAAAGkY/ZABL7AHmS6A/s400/Rex+Sotong.JPG baffling
16:53:15 <boily> Bike: I don't see no problem with that. it says イカ on the can.
16:55:23 <Bike> does that mean squid
16:58:54 <int-e> So, why do I have an avatar on github at all?
16:59:21 <boily> they rolled out automagic avatars some time ago, hashed from your username.
16:59:42 <int-e> and how do I get rid of that?
16:59:50 <boily> by providing your own.
17:00:32 <int-e> but that means giving gravatar some sort of information.
17:01:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:03:07 <int-e> Oh, I can just enter some bogus gravatar email. Not nice, but ok.
17:06:50 <int-e> which, interestingly enough, works for my account profile, but not for an organization profile ... wth.
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17:11:56 <oerjan> <boily> why. why must you all make my archival life so difficult. <-- i knew you'd like that one.
17:12:15 <oerjan> although, it was inevitable.
17:12:45 <int-e> (the trick, then, is to enter something that looks like a valid e-mail address. why is github even giving all this information to gravatar? this is annoying.)
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17:17:36 <quintopia> that's where everything is shaped like a mountain lion right?
17:18:08 <oerjan> `run echo 'A catamorphism is when you recurse to greedily and too deep." >wisdom/catamorphism
17:18:10 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:18:16 <oerjan> `run echo 'A catamorphism is when you recurse to greedily and too deep.' >wisdom/catamorphism
17:18:28 <int-e> Ok. I got it wrong, I forgot that I have Adblock filtering everything gravatar. So the fact that I see my own icon means that it's not fetched from there. Which is actually close enough to what I wanted.
17:18:52 <oerjan> `run echo 'A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.' >wisdom/catamorphism
17:18:55 <Bike> greedily is a nice place in te summer
17:19:19 <quintopia> Bike: hmm i wouldn't know. i've never recursed there.
17:19:38 <Gregor> I love how nobody uses `learn.
17:19:54 <quintopia> Gregor: i've seen some people use it
17:20:04 <Gregor> *lambdabot* oerjan said 5d 11m 23s ago: please fix the logs not to merge duplicate spaces, it's making quotes look like they're not qdbformat compliant hth // this is HTML being HTML, bugger off
17:20:05 <oerjan> Gregor: i use it when it fits.
17:20:13 <Bike> doesn't `learn always work for "`learn foo is a bar"
17:20:55 <oerjan> Gregor: i think there's a css style option for it.
17:21:09 <Gregor> You find it and I'll consider adding it.
17:23:10 <oerjan> Gregor: white-space:pre-wrap, i think.
17:26:10 <oerjan> Bike: yes, it works when the first word is the keyword or the keyword + s
17:26:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/learn
17:26:58 <oerjan> hm actually only `? handles +s
17:28:09 <Gregor> Are you quite satisfied.
17:29:02 <oerjan> `run echo 'tests ho' | sed 's/s? .*//'
17:29:07 <oerjan> `run echo 'tests ho' | sed 's/s\? .*//'
17:29:52 <quintopia> Gregor used to be so much now. now he's no more than a curmudgeon.
17:30:00 <oerjan> Gregor: did something break
17:30:24 <Gregor> quintopia: I've always been a curmudgeon, I just used to have more time X-D
17:31:30 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!/ !/s\? /' bin/learn
17:31:32 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 12: unterminated `s' command
17:31:39 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!/ !/s\? !' bin/learn
17:32:53 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!/ !/[Ss]\? !' bin/learn
17:33:14 <oerjan> `learn Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world.
17:35:10 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!/ !/[Ss]\\? !' bin/learn
17:35:19 <Gregor> GET IT? THEY'RE CAT-AMORPHIC.
17:35:43 <oerjan> `learn Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world.
17:35:53 <HackEgo> Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world.
17:36:30 <quintopia> Gregor: yes i get it because it was my joke first
17:37:07 <Gregor> PUNS ARE GREAT. I'M ACTUALLY HOLDING DOWN SHIFT, NOT USING CAPS-LOCK.
17:37:44 <int-e> I'd have to do the same. Caps-Lock is otherwise occupied, I use it for switching between virtual screens.
17:38:26 <quintopia> i've hardly used caps lock in my life, but i've never remapped it. dunno what i'd map it to
17:38:49 <quintopia> it's really a pointless key these days
17:39:31 <Gregor> 10 PRINT "CAPS-LOCK IS AWESOME"
17:39:58 <int-e> (with caps-lock, THE DOUBLE QUOTE WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED)
17:40:20 <quintopia> it also would not have happened if you were not holding down the shift key
17:40:23 <int-e> quintopia: Because YOU'RE WRONG. Or perhaps I'm just being silly.
17:41:07 <int-e> 18:40:52 <quintopia> but i'm right
17:41:15 <int-e> looks like center to me, leaning to the left.
17:42:01 <b_jonas> 10?"lower case is awesome":got10
17:42:10 <oerjan> `run echo 'CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES' >wisdom/'caps lock'
17:43:00 <int-e> Yes. Caps-lock is perfect for those Shakespeare quotes.
17:43:54 <quintopia> WHAT? WITH MY TONGUE IN YOUR TALE?
17:45:43 <int-e> Is it for shouting at the callee without raising your voice?
17:51:38 <HackEgo> 3) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 7)
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18:21:13 <boily> ah, good to see people enjoy cryptophytology → http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/344/3/e/chich_vin_wen_daajnaa_shela_by_jayelinda-d6xf64i.png
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18:24:08 <boily> good aftimwirnoon.
18:47:13 <Gregor> HAS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD
18:47:53 <boily> well, yes. what would it be otherwise?
18:49:26 <int-e> no, political correctness has distinguished itself and reached a level that few people comprehend.
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19:22:47 <Bike> huh, a plant editor, that's quite something boily
19:24:02 <quintopia> boily: i don't think that translates to english?
19:24:36 <boily> some day, we'll have pictures in the PDF.
19:24:56 <HackEgo> 795) <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon <kmc> it came in a cardboard box <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can <kmc> it was amazing \ 1026) <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Someone-Cuttlefish-Shapeshifter-Erotica-ebook/dp/B0087PTMW2 i hope you know this is going to /fuck up/ my amazon re
19:25:01 <Bike> first place to have a picture
19:25:03 <boily> quintopia: no, it comes from /r/conlangs
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19:26:15 <kmc> https://twitter.com/phil_torres/status/410404244554924033 fungus growing out of a fly
19:26:44 <kmc> could be cordyceps / ophiocordyceps
19:27:43 <boily> are there any other grow-on-something-that-it-shouldn't-grow-on fungi out there than cordyceps?
19:27:56 <kmc> who are you to say what a fungus should grow on, man
19:28:01 <quintopia> isn't that an entirely subjective question?
19:28:34 <kmc> i saw a photo from someone who was growing mushrooms on their desk and they kinda forgot about it and the mushroom started eating the wooden desk too
19:28:38 <quintopia> fungus shouldn't grow on algaes, ergo lichen fits your description, etc.
19:29:07 <Bike> boily: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Parasitic_fungi enjoy
19:29:33 <Bike> of course most of them are on plants
19:29:33 <boily> I will remain sane and spiritually pure.
19:29:43 <Bike> though you also get eg pseudogymnoascus destructans.
19:30:10 <Bike> Regarding etymology, "destructans" means "destroying".[1]
19:30:11 <douglass_> I read about a case of Schizophyllum commune (normally a small wood-digesting shelf fungus) growing out of someone's nose.
19:30:33 <kmc> fungot: would you ever do that
19:30:34 <fungot> kmc: whereas they really seem to know about so you can choose
19:31:13 <Bike> Malassezia (formerly known as Pityrosporum) is a genus of fungi. Malassezia is naturally found on the skin surfaces of many animals, including humans.
19:31:30 <boily> fungot: who are they, you corrupted bot?
19:31:30 <fungot> boily: what's a decent way to manage your own stack.
19:32:12 <FireFly> fungot: aren't you, like, stack-based?
19:32:12 <fungot> FireFly: darn mzscheme won't compile out of portage, let me lisppaste it
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19:56:10 <quintopia> and then timwi leaves without ever saying a word
19:58:00 <boily> let's have a random word in his memory...
19:58:02 <metasepia> "It follows that any commander in chief who undertakes to carry out a plan
19:58:02 <metasepia> which he considers defective is at fault; he must put forth his reasons,
19:58:02 <metasepia> insist of the plan being changed, and finally tender his resignation rather
19:58:02 <metasepia> than be the instrument of his army's downfall."
19:58:02 <metasepia> -- Napoleon, "Military Maxims and Thought"
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20:00:58 <olsner> "While scuba diving, he encounters a trio of cuttlefish that turn out to be much more than they seem: they're shapeshifters, and they want Paul for their own!"
20:01:34 * boily shields metasepia from the bad influence that is olsner
20:02:02 <olsner> the reviews are pretty funny too (but unfortunately they're obviously jokes)
20:04:43 <olsner> metasepia: if you're a gay shapeshifter cuttlefish, that's totally fine btw
20:05:07 <ion> 20 € exceeded by selling Steam cards.
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20:12:30 <olsner> huh, schizophyllum commune has 28000 sexes
20:13:28 <boily> fungot: which gender do you identify with?
20:13:29 <fungot> boily: get to da fnord ov god." would've been a near perfect machine :)
20:13:55 <boily> fungot is a fnordovgodsexual.
20:13:55 <fungot> boily: ' i miss you at times, there is a lot of
20:14:25 <boily> fungot: glad to hear I'm of a certain appeal to you, but I don't swing that way. (besides, my girlfriend would kill me, which is terrible.)
20:14:25 <fungot> boily: i'm going to extend them to support other forums as well?
20:14:57 <boily> fungot: you're going to go and disrupt other places on the intarwebs?
20:14:57 <fungot> boily: no, only the player character does that. fnord fnord fnord
20:15:18 <boily> fungot: aaaah, so you're an NPC after all. I like swords I like swords I like swords.
20:16:30 <Bike> times are tough
20:25:34 <olsner> fungot: who's the player character?
20:25:35 <fungot> olsner: are you evaluting arbitary code? iirc someone got it workign with append like this
20:25:57 <shachaf> fungot: i am arbitrary code
20:25:57 <fungot> shachaf: how do i make it scrollable? :p
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20:36:04 <Bike> anyone used http://www.tagsistant.net/? or something like it?
20:41:07 <olsner> is the hobbit tobacco from lord of the rings marijuana/drugz?
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20:47:15 <douglass_> Wikipedia says Tolkein said it was probably a variety of Nicotiana.
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20:52:12 <boily> long live solanaceæ!
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20:54:40 <kmc> it has come to my attention that in JavaScript ["1", "2", "3"].map(parseInt) => [1, NaN, NaN]
20:54:43 <kmc> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/262427/javascript-arraymap-and-parseint
20:55:46 <Bike> parseInt has a weird interface, then
20:56:14 <olsner> parseInt is pretty normal, I think map is the problem here
20:56:35 <Bike> oh oops i read it as taking the radix as the first argument.
20:56:54 <kmc> the problem is that map provides the index as a second argument, and parseInt will use that as the radix
20:57:59 <mroman_> my intuition says: "That's probably a bug"
20:59:14 <mroman_> callback is invoked with three arguments: the value of the element, the index of the element, and the Array object being traversed."
20:59:59 <boily> I just upgraded to firefox 26. it disabled pentadactyl because apparently it's not compatible. but it's still active, and working. I am disturbed.
21:00:08 <mroman_> calling a function in javascript with more parameters is ok then?
21:00:41 <olsner> I think any number of parameters is fine - extra ones are ignored, missing ones become null/undefined/NaN
21:00:52 <kmc> olsner: just 'undefined' i think
21:00:56 <boily> calling a function in javascript with more parameters is perfectly fine. think MATLAB when doing javascript, and everything gets dumped into the magic variable 'arguments'.
21:01:18 <olsner> kmc: I don't know the difference :D
21:01:23 <Bike> i don't want to think about matlb
21:01:41 <kmc> i forget why null and undefined both exist
21:02:42 <mroman_> That's what I used in my creepy js-functional-library to achieve currying
21:03:21 <boily> Bike: matlab is good for you. think of matlab. it will help you live a better life. matlab is your friiiieeend...
21:03:34 <kmc> matlab is your new bicycle
21:04:18 <mroman_> In case I wan't to write var average = $$_(sum, div, length);
21:04:55 <mroman_> var rle = $c(map(pairWith(head,length)),group);
21:05:40 <mroman_> where $c is actually haskell's (.)
21:07:29 <mroman_> http://mroman.ch/cgi/jlude/ <- in case anyone wants to laugh at me
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21:09:16 <doesthiswork> you guys really helped me with my linguistic presentation
21:16:40 <boily> mroman_: that library. it is interesting.
21:17:05 <Bike> needs more caterwaul
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21:21:42 <mroman_> boily: Yeah. Wrote it in first semester
21:22:39 <mroman_> Most of my stuff was written during boring lectures
21:24:11 <boily> I was trying to learn Haskell during boring lectures. with basic knowledge, I achieved the fastest crash I ever seen.
21:24:34 <boily> trying to plot dynamic systems and other fractals. 4 GB of RAM gobbled in 2 seconds flat.
21:24:37 <mroman_> I learnt Haskell with uhm...
21:24:37 <Bike> was it a segfault or something
21:24:55 <mroman_> when I was 16-17 years I guess
21:25:44 <mroman_> but I obviously haven't used it for serious stuff yet
21:27:21 <mroman_> I used to code stuff in Haskell during my apprenticeship
21:27:27 <mroman_> not officially of course ;)
21:27:41 <mrhmouse> kmc: null == explicit defined as "no value". undefined == not defined at all
21:28:19 <boily> sadly there aren't any official haskell jobs in Montréal afaik :(
21:28:24 <mrhmouse> var foo = { bar: null }; foo.bar /* => null */; foo.baz /* => undefined */;
21:29:51 <mroman_> but lately I spend my time during lectures on 10fastfingers.com
21:30:08 <mroman_> 121WPM is my record so far.
21:30:31 <mroman_> It's however not yet fast enough to write down human speech
21:30:42 <elliott> mroman_: var foo = { bar: undefined }; "bar" in foo /* => ? */
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21:31:24 <mroman_> I don't like that mrhmouse has the same initial letters as me
21:31:38 <mroman_> It seems to confuse some people ;)
21:31:51 <mrhmouse> elliott: I think you meant me. You'd use `typeof foo.bar === undefined`, and it would return true methinks
21:32:05 <mrhmouse> elliott: setting a key to undefined is the same as deleting a key iirc
21:32:15 <elliott> mrhmouse: is "in" deprecated for some reason?
21:32:58 <mrhmouse> elliott: nope. for some reason I'm remember CoffeeScript's "in"..
21:33:02 <mroman_> boily: I assume there probably are only about a dozen haskell jobs world-wide
21:33:25 <mroman_> on an unrelated note I somehow have developped interest in modell driven development
21:33:32 <mrhmouse> elliott: now you have me curious whether foo.bar = undefined and delete foo.bar are equivalent
21:33:58 <mrhmouse> elliott: could you try with delete foo.bar, since you're at it?
21:34:00 <elliott> it looks like undefined isn't quite "not defined at all" in the strictest sense, then, because I'd expect these to both be "false" in that case
21:34:19 <elliott> var foo = {bar:123}; delete foo.bar; "bar" in foo
21:34:25 <mrhmouse> elliott: it may still exist in the object's keys, but its value is undefined
21:34:30 <mroman_> And I think I should be able to easily create some meta-modells for most esotering programming languages
21:34:41 <elliott> mrhmouse: isn't that what null would mean? :)
21:35:13 <mrhmouse> elliott: not necessarily. null !== undefined.. null != undefined might be true, though, I can't recall
21:35:22 <Bike> i don't like this.
21:36:02 <mroman_> There should be an esolang which has undefined, null, nil, none and void at the same time .
21:36:09 <kmc> elliott: 'in' walks the prototype chain and so is sometimes not what you want
21:36:17 <kmc> so people use .hasOwnProperty() instead
21:36:27 <kmc> and jslint will yell at you for using "in" ever because the author is a hardass ;P
21:36:45 <elliott> mrhmouse: undefined isn't an identical object to null, I agree, but I'm not convinced they really have meaningfully distinct semantics
21:36:52 <Bike> mroman_: and bottom.
21:37:05 <elliott> mrhmouse: you can't use "undefined" as the result of a "lookup key in object" procedure to mean "not present", because then you get the same results for {} and {bar: undefined}, for instance
21:37:26 <mrhmouse> elliott: I'm not convinced either, now
21:37:29 <elliott> which is the same problem you'd have using null for this purpose, and what I'd expect to differ if undefined meant "not defined at all"
21:38:03 <elliott> heh, I guess if it really did work like how it could, new Array(1, undefined, 3) would create a sparse array
21:38:05 <Bike> i'm convinced this is crazy-ass bullshit if that helps
21:38:07 <mrhmouse> elliott: the only place I ever use undefined vs null is in function arguments, with typeof, to see if e.g. a caller dropped the final argument
21:39:24 <mrhmouse> but even then, you could check the number of arguments...
21:39:32 <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom
21:39:41 <Bike> ass is an urban legend
21:40:28 <mrhmouse> can somebody `quote that, please? I don't know `quote's argument syntax
21:40:36 <mroman_> My religion states that last [1..] == last [2..] is true.
21:41:00 <elliott> well, _|_ is denotationally equal to _|_
21:41:07 <elliott> of course if you mean the in-language (==) there then that doesn't apply
21:41:55 <Bike> incomputable equality predicates is the foundation of this country
21:42:13 <mroman_> mrhmouse: You could also do if(x === undefined)
21:42:23 <mrhmouse> `addquote Bike: ass is an urban legend
21:42:26 <HackEgo> 1144) Bike: ass is an urban legend
21:42:36 <mrhmouse> mroman_: that's what I was referring to earlier :)
21:42:53 <HackEgo> *poof* Bike: ass is an urban legend
21:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom
21:43:02 <HackEgo> 1144) <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom
21:43:08 <HackEgo> *poof* <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom
21:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom <Bike> ass is an urban legend
21:43:18 <HackEgo> 1144) <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom <Bike> ass is an urban legend
21:44:45 <kmc> i believe in a thing called love
21:48:10 <boily> you have a quote. you need a wisdom entry
21:48:48 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
21:49:04 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least.
21:49:10 <boily> mroman_: something like that ↑
21:49:26 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
21:49:37 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
21:49:50 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse.
21:51:57 <boily> pretty much. it usually comes from someone else, and gets mangled by other esötericians, and then the original meaning gets lost in the Mists of the Chännel.
21:52:46 <mroman_> There isn't much positive stuff to say about me anyway.
21:53:27 <Bike> also you have an underscore, that can't be tolerated
21:54:13 -!- mroman_ has changed nick to mroman.
21:54:18 <boily> Bike: but Phantom_Hoover is underscorefull! and he is tolerated!
21:54:30 <Bike> that's like, different, man.
21:56:09 <boily> Bike: your westcoastness is shining, eh?
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21:59:16 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:59:31 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:01:52 <HackEgo> - \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ file \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ this \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf \ ,}wolfram
22:02:01 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
22:02:22 <mroman> `echo hu > wisdom/mroman
22:02:28 <Bike> mroman: friendly reminder that you can explore in /msg
22:02:45 <Bike> mroman: you need to use `run to use shell stuff
22:02:53 <Bike> `run echo hu > wisdom/mroman
22:03:09 <mroman> ^- that's why I don't run it in /query
22:03:22 <mroman> I just assume somebody gets annoyed and help me :)
22:03:34 <Bike> well, you could have run it in query and then asked why it didn't do what you thought.
22:04:22 <boily> mroman: if you want to abuse and explore, feel free to ~metar and ~duck :D
22:05:45 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
22:05:58 <metasepia> DDG may refer to: DDG-1000, a 21st century United States Navy ship class.
22:06:58 <metasepia> recursive definition: of, relating to, or involving recursion.
22:07:06 <Bike> hm, i would have said 'waterfowl' instead of 'swimming bird'
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22:17:59 <kmc> i installed binutils-gold and now i can't reconfigure my window manager
22:19:42 <kmc> http://www.gcmap.com/search?Q=DOGE&EL=DOGE&ET=Fix+location&P=DOGE
22:20:02 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PAD THAI CHICKEN!).
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22:21:41 <olsner> kmc: iirc binutils-gold is just a "symlink ld to ld.gold" package, I think there's a -fuse-ld=gold you can use to ask for gold specifically
22:24:57 <mrhmouse> quintopia: don't worry, ruddy is a drop-in replacement for all your metasepia needs
22:25:01 <ruddy> replacement `unicode don't worry, don't worry, the don't worry, you as it's not the first time. rage!!! is a syntax replacement for python needs more caterwaul
22:25:21 <kmc> rage!!! is a syntax replacement for python
22:25:27 <kmc> is that like !!!Batch
22:27:10 <olsner> hmm, three !s? too few, I think
22:27:32 <olsner> yes, it's spelled Radixal!!!!
22:28:03 <shachaf> Please Note The Following !!!Batch Interpreter Written In Batch Is Now InActive However You Are Free To Modifiy It
22:28:12 <shachaf> wow, even in the middle of a word
22:29:51 <Bike> "#The Next Set Of Code Works On Capital Lettering :D Its Very Easy To Make A Capital By Adding + To The Code" i see
22:30:50 <Bike> is this just a unary coding of some characters.
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23:04:17 <oerjan> @tell <boily> I will remain sane and spiritually pure. <-- and self-deluded, naturally.
23:05:33 <shachaf> @ask <oerjan> does this work
23:06:29 <oerjan> int-e: you know, stripping the <>'s off @ask/@tell nicks _would_ probably help.
23:06:40 <shachaf> @tell oerjan: At least this works.
23:08:01 <lambdabot> shachaf said 1m 21s ago: At least this works.
23:08:34 <oerjan> @tell boily I will remain sane and spiritually pure. <-- and self-deluded, naturally.
23:08:57 <shachaf> Might've been a good idea to add the <boily> back in.
23:09:38 * oerjan has the whatchamacallit of a goldfish.
23:10:36 <oerjan> MAYBE, I DON'T REMEMBER
23:11:56 * oerjan actually couldn't remember the word he wanted for "whatchamacallit" btw. no, it wasn't actually "memory".
23:12:20 <olsner> recall? attention span?
23:12:27 * oerjan actually uses "actually" a lot.
23:12:44 <oerjan> maybe it was attention span.
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23:47:01 <oerjan> FreeFull: no, that wasn't it hth
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00:39:06 <Bike> "my novella about a sentient SMT solver addicted to bitcoin gambling" fuck, i'd read that
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00:40:53 <int-e> satisfiability modulo politics. hmm.
00:57:57 <kmc> wow uruguay has straight up legalized weed today
00:58:24 <Bike> oh nice they went through with that
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01:02:07 <HackEgo> He's a nobody. Move along.
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01:06:47 <kmc> doesthiswork: ah, is it? cool
01:10:10 <kmc> i don't know very much about cannabis cultivation
01:10:23 <HackEgo> kmc ran the International Devious Code Contest of 2013
01:10:45 <kmc> i watched a video about it, which was more interesting for the engineering that goes into a covert grow room than for the actual agriculture part
01:11:12 <kmc> good to know
01:11:57 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!sed.*!lowercase | sed '\''s/^(a|the) //;s/[Ss]\? .*//'\'')' bin/learn
01:11:57 <doesthiswork> I'm going to school for an actual degree in agriculture and I took a weed science class
01:11:58 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 55: unterminated `s' command
01:12:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!sed.*!lowercase | sed '\''s/^(a|the) //;s/[Ss]\? .*//'\'')!' bin/learn
01:12:37 <oerjan> `learn The natives are restless.
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01:16:09 <oerjan> @tell gregor the repository browser ignored one of my `reverts.
01:16:22 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*native*
01:16:24 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*native*: No such file or directory
01:17:04 <oerjan> hm since it's not removed in the repository, i have a hunch it will come back on the next change.
01:17:24 <kmc> "Who's looking forward to @rubyconfuruguay? :)" c.c
01:18:00 <Bike> ah right uruguay also got gay marriage back in august
01:18:09 <Bike> kmc: myndzi has to account for their name
01:20:33 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!sed.*!sed '\''s/^`\\(a|the\\) //;s/[Ss]\? .*//'\'')!' bin/learn
01:21:43 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!sed.*!sed '\''s/^\\(a|the\\) //;s/[Ss]\? .*//'\'')!' bin/learn
01:22:09 <oerjan> `learn The natives are restless.
01:22:35 <Bike> is that sed inside a sed command
01:22:53 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*native*
01:22:54 <HackEgo> wisdom/the natives are restless.
01:23:17 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/the natives are restless.
01:24:43 <oerjan> i thought sed allowed separating commands by ;
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01:25:45 <oerjan> `run echo 'the natives are restless.' | sed 's/^\(a|the\) //;s/[Ss]? .*//'
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01:25:57 <oerjan> `run echo 'the natives are restless.' | sed 's/^\(a|the\) //'
01:26:23 <oerjan> `run echo 'the natives are restless.' | sed 's/^\(a\|the\) //'
01:26:34 <oerjan> `run echo 'the natives are restless.' | sed 's/^\(a\|the\) //;s/[Ss]? .*//'
01:26:46 <oerjan> `run echo 'the natives are restless.' | sed 's/^\(a\|the\) //; s/[Ss]? .*//'
01:26:58 <oerjan> `run echo 'the natives are restless.' | sed 's/^\(a\|the\) //; s/s\? .*//'
01:27:22 <oerjan> ic. forgot two escape the backslash too.
01:27:50 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s!sed.*!sed '\''s/^\\(a\\|the\\) //;s/s\\? .*//'\'')!' bin/learn
01:28:10 <oerjan> `learn The natives are restless, also armed with sed.
01:28:20 <HackEgo> The natives are restless, also armed with sed.
01:28:53 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*native*
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02:37:18 <ion> http://dubblebaby.blogspot.ca/2012/09/buttgu.html
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03:08:14 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
03:08:51 <shachaf> prooftechnique: Are you involved in that?
03:09:18 <shachaf> zzo38's Dungeons and Dragons game.
03:09:30 <oerjan> hm last i paid attention there was just zzo38 and the gm
03:09:46 <shachaf> There's a character named Also.
03:09:51 <shachaf> prooftechnique's username is Also.
03:10:13 <oerjan> i guess the evidence is indisputable
03:11:10 <prooftechnique> My favorite character that I invented for D&D was a thief called Reggie
03:11:25 <prooftechnique> When asked "Short for Reginald", he responded "No, long for Reg"
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03:23:34 <quintopia> prooftechnique: the first time played, we started off with some default characters that the DM made up so we could get right into the mechanics. Mine was an elf with the auto-generated name "Varna" which I decided should be pronounced like "Lola" and that is what she was called for the rest of that campaign :D
03:25:59 <prooftechnique> I wish more mail clients supported integrated GPG stuff
03:26:23 <prooftechnique> I'm not way into Apple Mail, but I like it better than Thunderbird, and those are pretty much the options :|
03:27:43 <quintopia> i wonder if there is a way to integrate GPG into vmail
03:28:26 <quintopia> https://github.com/danchoi/vmail/issues/140
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04:39:00 <Sgeo> I am shocked, SHOCKED, by The Onion's Kelly... the latest cartoon doesn't have flies surrounding the person burning the US flag
04:40:04 <Bike> it's satire. savvy readers know to draw in the flies.
04:40:30 <Bike> also, he's already dead, as is right and proper
04:40:51 <kmc> the big fish eat the little ones
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05:56:10 <Bike> linux is trademarked right
05:56:31 <kmc> yes http://www.linuxfoundation.org/programs/legal/trademark/faq
05:57:21 <Bike> «I am making T-shirts, mugs, etc. for sale, and I want to include the "Linux" on them. Do I need a sublicense?» «No, this is generally considered fair use.» huh
05:57:43 <Bike> kmc: yeah i'm wondering how justified in writing that to be silly i am. the answer it seems is "it's fine i guess, nobody likes your stupid jokes anyway"
05:58:24 <kmc> t-shirt of Linux humping Mickey Mouse on top of the Enjoy Coca-Cola sign
05:58:49 <Bike> i don't usually think of linux as a humping entity
05:58:58 <Bike> the penguin maybe, but not linux itself
05:59:06 <Bike> ("i think of the penguin humping things a lot")
05:59:58 <kmc> class Tux extends IHumpable
06:00:34 <kmc> man if #esoteric had a code of conduct I would have to enforce it against myself on a daily basis -_-
06:01:01 <Bike> do codes of conduct usually prohibit talking about humping (not sure if this is a serious question)
06:01:16 <kmc> It Depends
06:03:34 <kmc> `pastelogs 8=+D
06:04:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29661
06:10:18 <oerjan> fungot: i think you will like today's xkcd
06:10:18 <fungot> oerjan: i'm fixing my code of ethics is vacationing at famed schroon lake in upstate new york because fnord pronounce " an"
06:10:33 <oerjan> fungot: oh wait, xkcd what-if, i mean
06:10:34 <fungot> oerjan: bash can't write a literal function or a macro engine... had no concurrent in his time that it's handling a message. don't believe the separator itself is of much importance
06:16:42 <kmc> the hemp, hops, and hackberries diet
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06:41:44 <oklopol> two guys leaving academia :'(
06:43:05 <Bike> too much hemp?
06:44:56 <Bike> not enough hemp?
06:45:54 <oklopol> perhaps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06:46:10 <oklopol> why does xkcd man occasionally use metric and occasionally retardic?
06:46:22 <oklopol> wouldn't consistency be nicer
06:46:39 <Bike> 'retardic' is a shitty insult, also we call that America Sickness
06:47:06 <oklopol> it's not an insult, i just didn't remember the name
06:48:45 <kmc> the US fluid ounce differs from the imperial fluid ounce
06:49:15 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MetricImperialUSCustomaryUnits.jpg
06:49:32 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and_US_customary_measurement_systems
06:49:56 <kmc> it's ♫ the worst ♫
06:51:06 <quintopia> usually randall does a good job of converting between the various units for everyone's sake
06:51:23 <quintopia> but favors customary due to his mostly american audience
06:53:31 <oklopol> maybe i just don't see the imperial version if there's a metric version too
06:55:49 <oklopol> anyone here an expert on writing research statements
06:55:57 <shachaf> "Also, member function pointers may be up to four times larger than regular pointers. The compiler may need to store the address of the function body, the offset to the correct base (multiple inheritance), the index of another offset in the vtable (virtual inheritance), and maybe even the offset of the vtable inside the object itself (for forward declared types)."
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07:03:13 <Sgeo> "There's no way a return value from a toilet can harm you unless you apply the value to your body."
07:04:08 <kmc> are you an op in #toilet now
07:04:36 <Sgeo> Some quote from some random person's dream
07:07:17 <kmc> shachaf: is there a case where you actually need all four of those
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09:48:02 <HackEgo> 104) <oerjan> alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles \ 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets \ 381) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Pl
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09:57:02 <fizzie> Take it to #esoteric-toilets, maybe?
09:57:59 <myname> there should be a language named toilet
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10:14:12 <oklopol> i was climbing a fence in my dream (sideways, to get over a spontaneous waterfall) and realized (still in the dream) that what i did actually proved that climbing fences is NP-complete.
10:14:17 <oklopol> but i'm not so sure anymore.
10:15:44 <Taneb> oklopol, I can climb fences in polynomial time
10:16:31 <oklopol> so i guess we can combine our findings to get P = NP
10:16:51 <myname> only if his climbing is deterministic
10:17:00 <oklopol> i'm sure it is, Taneb is basically a robot
10:17:59 <myname> oklopol: okay, now reduce fence climbing to 3sat
10:18:39 <oklopol> and everyone knows dreams have access to quantum stuff etc
10:19:02 <myname> that reminds me of the esolang that is implemented but not known
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13:14:45 <int-e> boily: pfcuttle added you to wisdom has a nice ring to it.
13:15:22 <int-e> (I'm checking yesterday's e-mail)
13:23:34 <boily> good lockpicking-is-hard morning!
13:23:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 14h 15m 21s ago: I will remain sane and spiritually pure. <-- and self-deluded, naturally.
13:24:10 <boily> @tell oerjan bleh!
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13:51:26 <RJones> the PDF in the topic is amazing.
13:52:03 <HackEgo> RJones: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:52:17 <boily> `relcome LinearInterpol
13:52:19 <HackEgo> LinearInterpol: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:52:57 <LinearInterpol> Been following esolang for a while yet I've never joined the IRC..
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14:10:20 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
14:10:39 <RJones> apparently I'm mad, then.
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14:48:16 <b_jonas> I have a crazy idea but I have to think about it before I determine it's impossible.
14:52:01 <metasepia> Your divination: "Treading" to "Treading"
14:52:24 <boily> b_jonas: wrt the Divinatory Tools, your idea is... possibly possible.
14:52:59 <b_jonas> boily: let's ask a magic 8-ball
14:53:20 <b_jonas> do we have a bot that can roll the magic 8-ball on this channel, or should I do it on another channel
14:53:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ball: not found
14:53:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 8-ball: not found
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14:56:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr \)\( \(\)
14:57:29 <HackEgo> (.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .>egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :?wow
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15:00:25 <int-e> `run cat bin/shachaf1sum
15:00:26 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ sha1sum "$@" | tr a-z n-za-m
15:03:56 <HackEgo> sha1sum: wisdom/shachaf : No such file or directory
15:04:22 <HackEgo> sha1sum: wisdom/wikipedia: No such file or directory
15:04:47 <boily> there aren't any wisdomian shachafes?
15:04:54 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
15:04:59 <b_jonas> I asked 8-ball from perlbot in another channel, and it said indeed my crazy idea is impossible
15:05:03 <FreeFull> The filename might be capitalised weirdly
15:05:08 <mrhmouse> `shachaf1sum /hackenv/wisdom/shachaf
15:05:10 <HackEgo> p3rn6r3803427n499ps0qnnn1674r74qs85839r9 /unpxrai/jvfqbz/funpuns
15:05:28 <FreeFull> That's shachaf's secret identity
15:05:34 <fungot> boily: if yes, what?) t
15:05:50 <boily> fungot: yes, shachaf, tr. you're missing a letter.
15:05:50 <fungot> boily: e2 links are evil."
15:05:56 <boily> fungot: what's an e2?
15:05:57 <fungot> boily: an esolang based off of befunge simcity???
15:06:20 * boily falls down from his chair in complete stupefaction
15:06:30 <FreeFull> We need more cellular automaton esolangs
15:06:59 <boily> imagine. a befunge simcity. it'd be glorious.
15:07:27 <FreeFull> How about an intersection between brainfuck and some turing-complete 1D cellular automaton? Not sure it'd work well
15:07:52 <RJones> I'm doing something similar to that.
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15:09:08 <RJones> I wouldn't call the languages I've seen that call themselves "cellular automata esolangs" actual cellular automata.
15:09:22 <boily> RJones: horrifying? don't you Realise the Potential? the Splines that could be Reticulated?
15:09:38 <RJones> we must start immediately.
15:10:38 <RJones> I'm developing an agent-based esolang with a control language similar to brainfuck.
15:10:51 <RJones> writing the implementation in C.
15:11:37 <fizzie> http://i.imgur.com/r2gXChY.png is p. accurate.
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16:02:47 <boily> `unicode BLUE BOOK
16:03:03 * boily six-point-trees HackEgo
16:07:59 <CADD> loving the wisdom compendium
16:09:49 <boily> `run python --version
16:10:11 <boily> `run python3 --version
16:10:13 <HackEgo> bash: python3: command not found
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16:10:52 <boily> Chillectual: not gonna welcome you a third time, you vile nickchanger!
16:12:26 <Chillectual> not my fault this friggin' client sucks! :(
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16:12:56 <CADD> Chillectual: use irssi attain enlightenment
16:13:24 <boily> Chillectual: disregard irssi acquire weechat.
16:13:51 <CADD> boily: how is weechat? ive heard people like it
16:13:59 <CADD> i guess i should give it a try..
16:16:21 <CADD> interesting, weechat has a guile plugin..
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16:17:00 <boily> CADD: weechat has interesting plugins, such as a relay → http://cormier.github.io/glowing-bear/
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16:18:15 <CADD> boily: neat, im happy with curses though. :D
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16:35:03 <fizzie> boily: Last I looked at Python and Unicode, not even Python 3 had UCS-4 builds enabled by default, so no non-BMP characters there.
16:35:45 <fizzie> `run python -c 'import sys; print sys.maxunicode'
16:36:11 <fizzie> (The Python 2.7.3 build on this Debian seems to print the proper 1114111 for that.)
16:37:24 <boily> fizzie: Python 3.3 is based on UCD 6.1, and 3.4 will have UCD 6.3.
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16:38:06 <fizzie> boily: Which doesn't help at all if it's still a UCS-2 build.
16:39:21 <fizzie> Though maybe they've finally changed the default, or at least distributions have, who knows.
16:39:38 <fizzie> (Both 2 and 3 seem to be UCS-4 builds on this thing.)
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16:43:00 <boily> fizzie: on my install, 'BLUE BOOK' fails on 2.7.6, but works on 3.3.3.
16:43:29 <fizzie> Yes, they do have different versions of the character database as well.
16:43:59 <RJones> `run python -c 'import antigravity'
16:44:00 <fizzie> (But that's a separate issue from the maximum allowed codepoint value in a unicode/str (for 2/3) object.)
16:44:02 <HackEgo> \ Configuration file "/etc/lynx-cur/lynx.cfg" is not available.
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17:46:24 <boily> quintopia: pythoning what? I python for my job, for myself, for others... Python is the Universal Harmonic Language!
17:46:34 <boily> Koen___: bon après-midi! long time no see!
17:47:04 <quintopia> i'm considering pythoning a universal esoteric ide
17:47:28 <Koen___> I haven't used my computer since november 18th
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18:05:07 <boily> he'll be back some time in January...
18:12:36 <boily> I think it's a good idea. 2D editing is a must.
18:12:59 <boily> (and befunge syntax highlighting. I am naïf, and still believe it to be possible.)
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18:13:33 <quintopia> well the idea is just a framework which loads different UIs and interpreters specific to each language
18:13:48 <quintopia> so "2d editing" would be supplied by the befunge editor for instance
18:14:01 <quintopia> and you could have multiple tabs open with different languages
18:14:24 <quintopia> each running its own plugged-in UI
18:14:42 <boily> and communication between the tabs, with data exchanged from esolang to esolang :D
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18:22:00 <quintopia> i suppose it's possible to redirect output. i'll be catching it to display it in the window anyway
18:22:39 <quintopia> but for interpreters that do visual output, like SELECT. or Gammaplex, I couldn't really do anything with that info
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18:32:43 <olsner> fungot: do you python?
18:32:43 <fungot> olsner: here is my error with the fnord of the language are dragging its level of suck there in years
18:33:05 <RJones> fungot is a bot, ain't he.
18:33:05 <fungot> RJones: mine isn't for offroad. fnord is perfect! :) gay fnord fnord choir had visited once
18:33:56 <HackEgo> 14) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 138) <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherp
18:35:56 <olsner> I'm not sure, but I think it referred to something related to the text generation stuff
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18:36:22 <RJones> fungot: prove P == NP.
18:36:23 <fungot> RJones: i need that optimization anyway. at times i'm feverish and hardly able to open " com1", not " id" tag attribute is supposed to
18:37:04 <RJones> fungot: give me the fourier transform of a sinusoidal wave.
18:37:05 <fungot> RJones: why did saunalahti raise their prices. which prices were raised? ( fnord)
18:37:14 <boily> fungot: prove P /= NP, as the Random Number God intended it to be.
18:37:15 <fungot> boily: the zfc foundation of mathematics does so. there's no complicated magical trickery going on here; scheme's semantics are even simpler than using bison/ flex, this will produce errors but the program was
18:37:31 <boily> RJones: see, you have to ask fungot True Questions.
18:37:31 <fungot> boily: easiest way for me to understand. :p i hope it dies. :p ( copyright should expire soon.) what library is this?
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18:39:08 <fungot> RJones: and associate memory regions to it.
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19:06:26 <fizzie> @tell RJones It's generating text out of n-gram models (mostly) built with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
19:08:03 <olsner> is variKN the research you mentioned?
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19:11:49 <int-e> does the zfc foundation support mathematicians in need?
19:13:48 <Slereah_> No, they cook the famous Zermelo Fried Chicken
19:14:26 <metasepia> Ernst Friedrich Ferdinand Zermelo (18711953) was a German logician and mathematician, whose work has major implications for the foundations of mathematics.
19:19:25 <boily> delicious fried logical chicken...
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19:21:56 <fizzie> @tell RJones (As you can easily deduce from lines 125-169 of https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 of course.)
19:21:56 <fungot> fizzie: what's srfi-1?
19:22:17 <fizzie> fungot: It's mostly list utilities.
19:22:17 <fungot> fizzie: no, you invoke it after evaluating it in the original sentence is not an argument, is not a
19:22:30 <fizzie> fungot: I'm pretty sure it is.
19:22:30 <fungot> fizzie: i need food, but it's hard to combine the functionality of. and it looks like
19:22:45 <fizzie> fungot: How do you even eat? It makes no sense.
19:22:45 <fungot> fizzie: there is also hochdeutsch. i suggest that you try to formalize what " flow of execution is what " load" is all you care about
19:23:03 <ion> Brahms’ Hungarian Dance #5 on the Bellowphone http://youtu.be/9B-lIVEm0As
19:24:14 <olsner> ion: the *Majestic* Bellowphone
19:24:44 <Slereah_> We are doing MIPS for the assembly class!
19:24:58 <Slereah_> I guess MIPS really does stand for MIPS Is Popular in School
19:25:45 <boily> «Il est des nôtres... il fait du MIPS comme les autres! ♪»
19:26:27 <Slereah_> The professor is all like "Nobody does CISC processors nowadays!"
19:26:29 <Slereah_> And then >my face when basically all computers are CISC
19:26:30 <fizzie> Ah, but are you doing MIPS with SPIM or MIPS with MARS or MIPS with <something else>?
19:26:33 <int-e> oh, this is even nicet than the P = NP proofs. http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.0494
19:27:11 <int-e> (I haven't looked inside yet)
19:27:16 <Slereah_> You can have all the fancy concepts you want, but that's not gonna stop Intel from doing backward compatibility to the 70's
19:28:12 <fizzie> I would assume they'd tell you a recommended setup, at least before any homework exercises.
19:28:32 <olsner> don't worry too much about doing a whole course in an architecture you'll never see again though
19:28:38 <olsner> you can still learn something :)
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19:29:28 <Slereah> [20:28:40] <Slereah_> Currently we are doing it on paper
19:29:28 <Slereah> [20:28:46] <Slereah_> Because he is That Kind of teacher
19:29:38 <fizzie> Anyway, there are probably more ARMs than Intels out there? That's got RISC right in the name.
19:29:59 <Slereah> At least all the school computers are Intel
19:30:07 <fizzie> Sure, but all phones are ARM.
19:30:10 <Slereah> Which makes his impassionate speeches about RISC amusing
19:30:20 <Slereah> Yeah but we're not doing homework on phones
19:31:32 <Slereah> Also he told us that the big assembly project, we won't be able to cheat with compilers, because it will be in KERNEL MODE
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19:31:58 <Slereah> I am a bit sick of people telling me "The OS takes care of that!" whenever I ask an assembly thing
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19:32:20 <fizzie> Kind of a curious statement, though, since most KERNEL MODE code in the world is probably written by a compiler.
19:32:36 <Slereah> Well he didn't say kernel mode
19:32:36 <fizzie> Linux is pretty much all C, and so on.
19:32:45 <Slereah> It was pretty vague statements
19:32:51 <boily> fizzie: you're forgetting the turtles.
19:33:07 <Slereah> But basically it will be some project where we won't be able to just compile it from C
19:33:14 <Slereah> At least not easily I guess?
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19:33:39 <Slereah> but fuck it, I will just code it directly in fucking MIPS
19:33:50 <Slereah> That is much more fun than doing bash scripts
19:34:35 <fizzie> Yeah, you can pretty much always compile it from C if you just try hard enough. At least in the hello.c way.
19:34:39 <HackEgo> const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
19:35:29 <fizzie> `run gcc -o /tmp/x hello.c && /tmp/x; rm /tmp/x
19:35:49 <fizzie> I guess I forgot the funny-warning flag.
19:35:50 <fizzie> `run gcc -Wall -o /tmp/x hello.c && /tmp/x; rm /tmp/x
19:35:53 <HackEgo> hello.c:1: warning: ‘main’ is usually a function \ Hello, world!
19:36:07 <Slereah> By the way, I am wondering
19:36:19 <Slereah> What happens when the computer just doesn't do shit
19:36:28 <myname> how does that even work
19:36:38 <Slereah> Does it just loop idly by until there's an interrupt?
19:36:54 <Slereah> Like what is sent to the processor
19:36:58 <olsner> it could do that, but usually there's a way to sleep until the next interrupt
19:37:40 <olsner> and then there's a million different ways to sleep saving various amounts of power at the cost of latency when waking up again
19:38:22 <Slereah> Let's say the sleepiest sleep without turning off the computer
19:38:44 <myname> wait, people can sleep without running computers?
19:39:23 <Slereah> Before I moved out, the computer was in my room and there was like 4 hard drives and I left it running at night
19:39:29 <Slereah> It takes some getting used to the noise
19:39:40 <quintopia> which is the in-place sorting algorithm that iteratively swaps the nth element with the nth smallest element?
19:39:48 <myname> Slereah: nothing tape can't fix
19:40:12 <myname> quintopia: selection sort?
19:40:20 <Slereah> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPRA0W1kECg
19:40:41 <Slereah> Bogosort is really the best musician
19:40:52 <mroman> Now I have to write an Interpreter for Pinkcode
19:41:03 <mroman> and then let's see about balancing stuff
19:41:33 <fizzie> myname: I'd say it works because of apathetic linkers that don't care about types. (Though I'm not entirely sure how the code ends up in an executable segment of the executable.)
19:41:53 <boily> there are things going on in my ears...
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19:43:44 <Slereah> Are gnomes mining your earwax
19:44:11 <fizzie> Oh, I guess maybe .rodata ends up in the same r-x ELF segment since that way it only needs to have headers for r-x .text + .rodata and rw- for .data.
19:45:38 <fizzie> (Well, that's how it works, then.)
19:45:49 <int-e> Slereah: I lost my love for Bogosort. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stooge_sort is my new hero.
19:46:39 <boily> Slereah: sorted gnomes are making boop boop boops in my ears.
19:47:30 * int-e puts a NaN gnome in the array and waits for the inevitable mayhem.
19:48:54 <boily> my ears are incompatible with euro NaN gnomes.
19:49:28 <fizzie> Don't you have IEEEars?
19:49:51 <boily> I didn't renew my subscription.
19:50:22 * boily mapoles fizzie for the horrible pun.
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20:00:02 <metasepia> CYUL 111900Z 25015KT 15SM VCSH FEW025 BKN060 BKN090 OVC150 M06/M13 A3004 RMK SC2SC3AC2AC1 SLP174
20:01:13 <boily> VCSH? it's minus 6! it can't be SHing!
20:04:04 <boily> (the VC is ViCinity.)
20:04:07 <ion> The Majestic Bellowphone would be perfect for P.D.Q. Bach.
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20:12:13 <boily> Chelloctual. HellinearInterpollo. RJonellos.
20:17:42 <int-e> ~metar Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
20:18:45 <int-e> LinearInterpol: Klingon. Ouch. The Old Ones will be sure to smite you for that one.
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20:24:49 <boily> LinearInterpol: you're an elder? are you as old as cpressey? what are your approximate coördinates, and body weigh?
20:26:54 <int-e> 1.5e8km from the sun, direction: varying.
20:29:37 * boily keeps his precious mapole away from the Burning LinearInterpol
20:30:04 <boily> olsner: it's a maple pole. very useful for thwacking people over :D
20:35:05 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
20:35:26 <boily> `echo 'A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to the Canadian standards.' >wisdom/mapole
20:35:27 <HackEgo> 'A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to the Canadian standards.' >wisdom/mapole
20:35:33 <boily> `run echo 'A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to the Canadian standards.' >wisdom/mapole
20:36:16 <boily> `run echo 'A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.' >wisdom/mapole
20:37:07 <HackEgo> cat: wisdon/mapole: No such file or directory
20:37:54 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
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20:40:43 <boily> LinearInterpol: don't worry, you're not the first nor the last to try and hack HackEgo. Gregor did a nice job on it.
20:41:29 <Bike> more like it is a shell.
20:42:25 <boily> it's... kinda complicated.
20:42:37 <Bike> It's user-mode linux in a virtual instance bla bla bla
20:42:47 <Bike> if you want an esoteric bot there's fungot. Fungot, refreshments, please.
20:42:47 <fungot> Bike: that was a long time in the shower...' paste about then?
20:42:49 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:42:56 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
20:43:27 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
20:43:32 <boily> LinearInterpol: have fun!
20:43:49 <mrhmouse> > "lambdabot also answers to >"
20:44:11 <boily> :t "and sometimes even to :"
20:44:26 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
20:44:26 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0
20:44:28 <myname> how is hackego secured against anything?
20:44:48 <olsner> ah, that didn't seem to work
20:44:50 <Bike> well, it's under like nine levels of virtualization or something, for one
20:44:51 <mrhmouse> myname: I don't think it is. It's still vulnerable to e.g. fork bombs
20:45:21 <boily> `run :(){ :|:& };:
20:45:30 <Bike> `echo still alive?
20:45:58 <Bike> `run perl -e "fork while fork" &
20:46:00 <mrhmouse> Hm. Maybe Gregor fixed it? I remember not too long ago we demonstrated that it is vulnerable to fork bombs.
20:46:06 <Bike> `echo and yet?
20:46:18 <boily> LinearInterpol: with the bunch of kind of sort of people you can find on this chännel, it better be secure.
20:47:19 <Bike> well, i think we pretty quickly stop seeing the point of gaining control of some random umlbox with an internet whitelist bla
20:47:30 <olsner> I wonder if either of UML or virtualization is "more secure", or if it just comes down to not putting bugs in the implementation(s)
20:48:13 <boily> LinearInterpol: where are you (approximately)?
20:49:28 <boily> you won't be metarred, then, you vile person you.
20:50:06 <metasepia> CYUL 112000Z 26016KT 15SM FEW030 BKN055 BKN090 BKN150 M06/M14 A3005 RMK SC1SC4AC1AC1 SLP177
20:50:47 <boily> pure Essence of Weather, distilled for pilots and other geeks.
20:51:03 <olsner> weather, distilled into gibberish
20:51:42 <metasepia> KBGR 111953Z 28005KT 10SM BKN050 BKN070 M03/M12 A3000 RMK AO2 SLP164 T10281122
20:52:16 <boily> each field means something.
20:52:33 <olsner> are you sure? would you notice if one of them didn't?
20:53:30 <boily> Bangor International Airport, report issued today at 7:53pm UTC, 5 knt westerly winds, 10 mi ground visibility, broken clouds at 5000'...
20:54:32 <boily> broken clouds at 7000', -3 °C with dew point at -12 °C, QFE at 30.00 inHg, something I forgot, QNH at 1016.4 hPA, another thing I forgot.
20:55:04 <boily> QFE: air pressure calibrated at airfield's altitude, QNH: air pressure calibrated at mean sea level.
20:55:28 <boily> yes, units are different. inches of mercury, and hectopascal.
20:55:41 <Bike> inches of mercury...
20:55:52 <Bike> that's terrible. just horrible.
20:55:55 <metasepia> EGNT 112050Z 17007KT 150V210 CAVOK 03/02 Q1020
20:57:06 <Taneb> Where's the temperature help
20:57:29 <Bike> Taneb: maybe the 3/2?
20:57:31 <boily> Taneb: +3 °C, +2 °C. it's the slash group.
20:57:46 <Bike> is this the "ICAO" airport codes?
20:57:58 <HackEgo> 994) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
20:58:14 <boily> Bike: yes. there are some suggestions made in this fine chännel that I should add support for IATA codes also.
20:58:26 <metasepia> KPUW 112053Z AUTO 11012KT 10SM CLR M01/M07 A3037 RMK AO2 SLP314 T10111067 57008
20:58:33 <Bike> why is it cold everywhere
20:58:42 <boily> LinearInterpol: it comes handy in times of Snowstorms. you'll see runway conditions too.
20:59:13 <boily> Bike: because global warming.
20:59:43 <metasepia> KMLB 112053Z 06007KT 10SM BKN080 26/20 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP214 T02610200 56009
21:00:06 <Bike> the problem is that i'm reading these like radio codes which is totally different nerdy shit
21:00:39 <Bike> melbourne is not exactly west of the mississip
21:01:13 <boily> all USA airports are K???, irregardless of the missississippi.
21:01:42 <Bike> (with radios w means east, generally)
21:02:01 <boily> except when it means West. there are some notable exceptions around the Great Lakes.
21:04:56 <metasepia> CYVR 112000Z 11003KT 15SM FEW045 SCT110 OVC130 03/M00 A3034 RMK SC1AC2AC5 SLP273
21:05:00 <olsner> what is west normally if w is east?
21:05:01 <metasepia> CYYC 112000Z 26015G22KT 40SM FEW160 BKN220 01/M09 A2990 RMK AC2CI4 ACC ASOCTD VIRGA SW SLP192
21:05:09 <metasepia> CYOW 112000Z 29015KT 15SM BKN055 BKN070 M09/M16 A3008 RMK SC5AC2 SLP193
21:05:14 <metasepia> CYUL 112000Z 26016KT 15SM FEW030 BKN055 BKN090 BKN150 M06/M14 A3005 RMK SC1SC4AC1AC1 SLP177
21:24:30 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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21:26:48 <FireFly> also why isn't it colder??
21:26:55 <metasepia> ESSA 112120Z 25014KT 9999 OVC007 06/05 Q1018 R01L/29//95 R08/29//95 R01R/29//95 NOSIG
21:27:11 <metasepia> VHHH 112100Z 05016KT 6000 FEW025 SCT030 16/08 Q1016 NOSIG
21:28:20 <metasepia> WSSS 112100Z VRB02KT 6000 FEW016 BKN300 25/25 Q1007 NOSIG
21:28:23 <metasepia> ESKN 112120Z 27011KT 9999 BKN008 07/06 Q1020 R26/290095
21:29:11 <boily> time to go buy a practice lock.
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21:30:02 <FireFly> ruddy: any wisdom for us this fine evening?
21:30:04 <ruddy> wisdom `ls `? `ls yeah, that's fine `run ls -d wisdom `run /bin/ls -d wisdom wisdom of the day
21:30:23 <FireFly> ruddy: not terribly helpful
21:30:24 <ruddy> terribly noisy and doesn't sound i'm although i mips is terribly common for php, i'm not did you know that well member pointer
21:39:00 <mrhmouse> FireFly: I'm afraid if you seek wisdom from ruddy, your search will be a long one
21:39:04 <ruddy> wisdom `ls `? wisdom `ls how maybe i'm sorry, mrhmouse, i'm afraid `ls
21:39:17 <kmc> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/cpg/4238295054.html "2 Chemists, need programmer... When completed, the world will never look at air in the same way."
21:39:19 <mrhmouse> ruddy: you should be afraid; we're going to replace you
21:39:22 <ruddy> they'll because if iunno if we're that's we're starting from scratch and then just replace oh.
21:39:53 <Bike> kmc: that was way more exciting before i read the whole thing.
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21:44:12 <doesthiswork> So, the programmer needs to program the GUI we have developed in C# using MS Visual Studio 2013 Express and SQL Express 2012
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21:51:40 <mrhmouse> Nighty night ruddy; I'm reclaiming your disk space.
21:51:41 <ruddy> nighty er, night nighty night it's just night night again, mrhmouse. good night
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22:27:08 <kmc> std::rt::io::native::file::FileDesc::new(1).write("Hello, world!\n".as_bytes())
22:28:18 <Bike> i want to see the symbol name
22:29:15 <ais523> kmc: that "as_bytes()" looks ugly to e, it should take an encoding parameter
22:31:17 <kmc> unfortunately the fact that str is utf8 is more than an implementation detail in Rust
22:31:25 <kmc> in fact a lot of the methods operate on byte indices :/
22:31:46 <shachaf> Well, operating on byte indices doesn't necessarily mean UTF-8.
22:32:55 <ais523> I can sort-of understand a language as low-level as Rust intentionally not bothering doing Unicode correclty
22:33:05 <ais523> but I think it should make a decision as to whether to do it or not
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22:41:00 <kmc> i'm not that happy with the way str works either
22:41:19 <kmc> but I'm not sure it counts as doing Unicode incorrectly, either
22:41:41 <ais523> this discussion came up on Reddit recently
22:41:45 <kmc> Rust does enforce that every str is valid UTF-8
22:41:53 <ais523> I decided that the only library I've seen that does Unicode correctly is ncursesw
22:42:01 <ais523> which represents strings as "list of set of codepoint"
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22:42:10 <ais523> so as to get the character boundaries correct
22:42:19 <ais523> enforcing that a string is UTF-8 is one thing
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22:42:25 <ais523> but UTF-8 just encodes codepoints
22:42:32 <ais523> and characters can be multiple codepoints
22:42:37 <shachaf> I hear Perl does Unicode correctly, maybe.
22:43:10 <pikhq> It's probably moot in the case of ncursesw, simply because the terminals it talks to probably don't handle the cases where that matters.
22:43:19 <ais523> shachaf: Perl's closest of any language I know, but even it doesn't handle combining characters correctly without help from a separate library
22:43:34 <ais523> pikhq: well IIRC xterm can handle up to 4 combining characters on each graphic character
22:44:19 <shachaf> I,I represent strings as sequences of equivalence classes of sequences of codepoints
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22:44:42 <pikhq> And naive users of wcwidth should get at least vaguely *close*.
22:45:00 <pikhq> Or the more useful wcswidth.
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22:45:15 <kmc> ais523: representing everything in terms of character clusters (base char + 0 or more combining chars) is what you want for maanging character-cell terminals, yeah, but I wouldn't say it's the one correct way to view Unicode
22:45:33 <pikhq> (wcwidth tells you the width of a wchar_t in terms of terminal cells, wcswidth a wchar_t*)
22:45:53 <kmc> it's not sufficient for proportional width font shaping
22:46:03 <pikhq> I'm not sure, but I assume the combining chars have a width of 0.
22:46:06 <kmc> where you can have a many-many relationship between character clusters and glyphs
22:46:09 <kmc> they do pikhq
22:46:13 <Bike> note to self, switch to pictograms
22:46:41 <pikhq> K, so a program using those would get about as close to "correct" as you can manage with a terminal.
22:47:26 <pikhq> Sucks for complex scripts though.
22:47:36 <shachaf> what about fullwidth characters and other things
22:47:53 <pikhq> shachaf: A fullwidth character has a width of 2.
22:48:00 <ais523> anyway, there are few situations in which manipulating Unicode strings is useful
22:48:19 <ais523> in the ones where it is, such as regexing, and wordwrapping, you want to avoid cutting strings between a character and a combining character
22:48:37 <pikhq> But otherwise aren't particularly concerned about the semantics.
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23:24:08 <int-e> Darn what's the Winslow doing in a Girl Genius Online comic?! (Though I guess it's not the first time ...)
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23:26:14 <oerjan> well indeed, i think it was in the very first comic
23:28:14 <int-e> might be the same kids, heh.
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23:31:29 <oerjan> of course afair the original winslow belongs to the foglio kids^Wexperiments.
23:35:10 <int-e> wow. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Winslow&action=historysubmit&diff=585606594&oldid=568281150
23:35:52 <oerjan> people are quick on the internet
23:36:52 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
23:37:10 <int-e> And there are so many of them.
23:37:21 <int-e> The result occasionally feels like magic.
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23:42:30 <oerjan> i didn't really expect wikipedia to have an undeleted article on it, thought.
23:58:29 <oerjan> @tell oklopol i'd expect fence climbing to be at most a graph reachability problem, which means it's in NL. and if all the climbing is reversible, just L.
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02:26:12 * oerjan swats you both for that stuff -----###
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02:27:27 <LinearInterpol> general inquiry about the current context of the previous element of text.
02:27:31 <quintopia> groanworthy pun about the response, lowering the overall tone
02:27:55 <oerjan> LinearInterpol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic
02:28:34 <LinearInterpol> exclamatory remark regarding a sense of understanding.
02:29:01 <quintopia> comment of approval regarding oerjan's helpful nature and abstention from hthing
02:29:20 <oerjan> elliott: hambiguitous reply
02:29:47 <ais523> is LinearInterpol a bot?
02:29:59 <oerjan> ais523: negative response
02:30:05 <LinearInterpol> laughter accompanied by an extended explanation as to the reasoning of my laughter.
02:30:17 <quintopia> oerjan: inquiry of interest into possible metadiscussion?
02:30:44 <oerjan> quintopia: worry about being hit by anvils
02:30:54 <LinearInterpol> fuck every other channel on this network I love you all already.
02:34:31 <ais523> was Oj742_wheatly specifically designed to beat preparation?
02:34:38 <ais523> I guess I may as well update preparation to the most recent version, anyway
02:34:57 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bj
02:35:05 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 6.7
02:35:37 <quintopia> i should get around to finishing updating space_hotel with the other stuff
02:35:44 <oerjan> maybe you should ask Oj742, i think e's been here at least once.
02:35:44 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bj
02:35:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 46.9
02:35:56 <ais523> just I specified the URL as the program
02:36:00 <ais523> 46.9 is still too low though
02:36:23 <ais523> it's fourth, that's about where it was before
02:36:40 <ais523> and its win/loss is correct
02:37:05 <ais523> also, huh, omnipotence is back on top
02:37:35 <quintopia> did Oj ever finish providing a description of smartlock for the wiki
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02:39:42 <ais523> quintopia: not sure, but there's a decent description in source code comments
02:39:54 <ais523> it's basically the same strategy as defend9 except he/she actually made it work
02:40:06 <ais523> nice to see other people trying strategies on a similar crazy level to mine
02:40:27 <quintopia> gratifying that you're not the craziest on earth?
02:40:38 <quintopia> maybe you could provide the description then
02:40:50 <ais523> it means that other people are putting a bunch of thought into BF Joust
02:43:20 <quintopia> it means that one other person is :P
02:43:42 <ais523> well, I only need one person competing with me to keep things interesting
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03:29:02 <Sgeo> I introduced my gf to Multimedia Fusion 2 :/
03:29:41 <coppro> the mistake was having a gf
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03:35:40 <kmc> why is that ":/" Sgeo
03:36:12 <Sgeo> I keep hearing (ok, from one source -- probably the most well-known user) that MMF2 sucks
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03:47:20 <ais523> Sgeo: Kayin, I take it?
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04:01:36 <kmc> what does your gf do Sgeo
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04:16:18 <Sgeo> She's still in college, programming major
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04:28:32 <tswett> God damn it, who created ///
04:29:10 <tswett> There's no way to perform a replacement only in a specified region. If you do a replacement anywhere at any time, it affects the entire remainder of the program.
04:29:35 <tswett> The pattern must be a specific string. You can't have a pattern with variables in it and then use those variables on the right hand side.
04:30:31 <tswett> I'm trying to think of a way to make it so that the string "98_97_96_…_4_3_2" expands out to the relevant part of the beer song.
04:31:43 <tswett> My first thought was to place each number in a little replacement. Like, you could say "/DD/98/DD bottles of beer on the wall, DD bottles of beer".
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04:32:01 <tswett> But... wait... will that actually work?
04:32:19 <tswett> Oh gosh, I hate it, but I think it will.
04:33:02 <tswett> The first replacement replaces DD with 98 in a string containing DD, as well as the rest of the program.
04:33:23 <tswett> The second replacement was intended to replace DD with 97 in a string containing DD. But instead it replaces 98 with 97 in a string containing 98.
04:38:22 <oerjan> tswett: you might want to use /D\D/98/ etc.
04:38:44 <tswett> Right. Being able to stick that backslash in there was why I used two Ds.
04:40:01 <oerjan> what you frequently want, is to alternate between two different token names, so you can change things back.
04:42:07 <oerjan> well i can certainly see how to do what you are trying, although i won't spoil it unprompted.
04:42:24 <tswett> Yeah, I'm having a decent amount of fun trying to figure this all out.
04:44:21 <tswett> Sorta funny how if you're using replacements to define a bunch of symbols as meaning other strings, you'll want to place each definition *before* the definitions it relies on.
04:46:04 <quintopia> oerjan: what is your favorite esolang
04:46:18 <oerjan> if there are no \/ inside you can sometimes reorder them.
04:46:37 <tswett> Yeah. But that makes stuff a little harder to think about.
04:47:01 <tswett> Yeah, a tricky aspect of this language is that it *requires* you to say one thing when you actually mean another.
04:47:25 <oerjan> quintopia: i think underload has the top spot.
04:47:47 <quintopia> oerjan: what's your favorite of yours?
04:48:11 <oerjan> quintopia: sense of making try you can?
04:48:24 <tswett> I assume "your favorite language you created".
04:51:11 <Sgeo> I've created so few and I think only one isn't total garbage
04:51:24 <tswett> oerjan: you head-final order in written English read can?
04:51:49 <ais523> perhaps you could use the Forte method of doing 99 bottles of beer
04:52:01 <quintopia> tswett: did head-final and order get switched there?
04:52:02 <oerjan> tswett: that hard not it is
04:52:04 <ais523> the arithmetic makes it awkward
04:52:18 <tswett> quintopia: no. "Order" is the head of "head-final order", so it's placed finally.
04:53:09 <quintopia> i guess i don't understand head-final order then. no idea why the first word came first, then the rest from the end backwards except for the last two...
04:53:46 <oerjan> ais523: it seemed to me like he was nearly doing that, although that means you have to print out before constructing.
04:54:01 <tswett> quintopia: well, head-final order means that the head of a phrase comes at the end of it.
04:54:03 <oerjan> *before finishing constructinh
04:54:07 <tswett> So first you put the modifying word, then you put the word modified.
04:54:54 <quintopia> tswett: so you modifies the phrase "can read English written in head-final order"?
04:55:18 <tswett> quintopia: no, "you" and "read English written in head-final order" both modify "can".
04:55:48 <tswett> Vaguely like backwards Lisp. (you ((((((head final) order) in) written) English) read) can)
04:55:51 <quintopia> yeah i think that convention needs more syntax to make it clear what so
04:56:30 <oerjan> the tricky part is that english itself is not entirely head-initial, so you cannot just reverse the sentence.
04:56:56 <tswett> At least for me, that's a lot easier in head-initial order. (can you (read (English (written (in (order (initial head)))))))
04:57:03 <quintopia> is there a language that is completely head-initial?
04:57:27 <tswett> That'd be completely head-final.
04:57:39 <Bike> what about : ;
04:57:43 <Bike> never quite understood that
04:57:51 <quintopia> latin is not head-final i realize. adjectives usually come after their nouns
04:57:53 <tswett> /// is completely head-final, too. You put the modifier first, the thing modified second.
04:58:16 <tswett> oerjan: do you know if in Japanese, an adjective can sometimes follow a noun?
04:58:27 <oerjan> tswett: i don't know japanese
04:58:37 <Bike> does japanese even have adjectives
04:58:47 <tswett> Isn't there some o-person in here who... nope, I was one letter off. It was a p-person.
04:58:48 <oerjan> quintopia: beat me to it :P
04:59:08 <tswett> There's this music project called something like "mirakuru myujikaru", presumably meaning "musical miracle".
04:59:19 <oerjan> well oklopol has learned some iirc
04:59:49 <tswett> ミラクルミュージカル, to be exact.
05:00:08 <pikhq> Adjectives always go before nouns.
05:00:19 <tswett> I have this list of songs I like, in alphabetical order by artist. Naturally, ミラクルミュージカル comes between Malcolm Brown and Modest Mouse.
05:00:29 <tswett> pikhq: does that mean ミラクルミュージカル is grammatically incorrect, or is there something else going on?
05:00:41 <tswett> Verbs in Japanese always go at the very end, as far as I know.
05:00:46 <pikhq> tswett: "Miraculous musical" is probably the meaning.
05:00:52 <pikhq> quintopia: Almost always at the end.
05:01:07 <quintopia> pikhq: is japanese a pure head-inital language (by convention)?
05:01:08 <tswett> pikhq: ah yeah, that'd make a bit more sense.
05:01:33 <tswett> So, I'm gonna have to consciously think about the stages that this 99-bottles program is going to go through...
05:01:49 <pikhq> quintopia: No, pure head final.
05:02:06 <tswett> pikhq: can you think of anything whatsoever in Japanese that isn't head-final?
05:02:36 * quintopia wonders what is the probability of tswett independently nearly-exactly duplicating the existing 99bottles in ///
05:02:59 <oerjan> quintopia: very low, since he has a different goal
05:03:11 <pikhq> Aside from very casual use where the subject of a sentence goes after the rest of the sentence. "Hen ja ne, anta" for instance.
05:03:13 <tswett> oerjan: what's my goal?
05:03:32 <pikhq> Other than that, nothing that's not head final exists to my knowledge.
05:04:03 <oerjan> quintopia: alternatively very high, since he wrote it in the first place
05:04:14 <pikhq> Though "to my knowledge" is an important qualifier.
05:06:04 <oerjan> tswett: to start with 99_98_97_... literally in the program, iiuc
05:07:32 <pikhq> To use a previous example, "Anata wa heddo fainaru oodaa de kaita nihongo wo yomeru ka" is utterly sane Japanese. ("YOU (subject) HEAD FINAL ORDER (by means of) WRITTEN JAPANESE (object) READ(CAN) (question)" or some such for the gloss)
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05:08:55 <oerjan> <oerjan> tswett: to start with 99_98_97_... literally in the program, iiuc
05:09:07 <pikhq> And indeed the most natural way of expressing it.
05:10:00 <pikhq> What, like Japanese does neologisms for its technical vocabulary. :P
05:10:17 <quintopia> seems like that's one that could be translated in part
05:10:41 <tswett> Wow, so the Japanese sentence is pretty much a word-for-word translation of the HFO English.
05:10:43 <pikhq> Yeah, probably "heddo fainaru jun"
05:10:52 <tswett> It just has a few more markers.
05:11:08 <quintopia> tswett: like the parens i wanted :P
05:11:37 <tswett> Now, what about conjunctions? One might argue that the head of "Edo to Aru" is "to".
05:12:06 <tswett> One is relatively unlikely to argue that that phrase has exactly one head, and it's "Aru".
05:12:24 <tswett> Heheh. My phone tried to correct "Aru" to "Arufonsu".
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05:13:13 <ais523> where's metasepia when you need it?
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05:14:07 <pikhq> Though, "to" isn't really the word "and" at all.
05:14:10 <ais523> I know Emacs does really aggressive autocomplete when there's only a limited set of possible input values
05:14:45 <pikhq> It's more like the "mo" particle, in that it more states that the noun is also being included.
05:15:02 <pikhq> Arufonsu: Explain "tomodachi to hanashita"
05:15:20 <Arufonsu> I don't know what those words mean.
05:15:25 <quintopia> pikhq: so like the particle "as well as" in english?
05:15:39 <pikhq> quintopia: Something like that, yes.
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05:17:18 <pikhq> Arufonsu: "tomodachi" is "friend", "hanashita" is "talk" past tense.
05:17:28 <pikhq> "Tomodachi to hanashita" is "(I) talked with my friend."
05:18:37 <Arufonsu> So yeah, vaguely like "included".
05:18:51 <Arufonsu> "My friend included, I talked."
05:19:06 <Arufonsu> "Ed included, Al is going to end up dead."
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05:20:18 <pikhq> It works identically to the "ya" particle. ("ya" is used for stating more vague sets of inclusion. Like, "eddo ya aru ya shinu hazu" would be "From the set of Ed and Al, one must die.")
05:21:15 <pikhq> "ya" is more "etc."
05:21:28 <pikhq> "Eddo ya aru ya shinu hazu". "Ed, Al, etc. must die."
05:22:24 <Arufonsu> (Pretty sure it sounded like Edo to me.)
05:22:39 <pikhq> It's "Eddo", not "Edo".
05:23:27 <pikhq> Oh, blah, it is "Edo".
05:23:29 <Arufonsu> Is that what it says in the manga?
05:23:32 <pikhq> It's been a few years.
05:24:03 <Arufonsu> What language are manga written in? Manganese.
05:24:13 <pikhq> For some reason seems like it should be "Eddo", but *shrug*
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06:09:43 <lambdabot> MonadState s m => (s -> (a, s)) -> m a
06:10:04 <quintopia> just had an idea for a programming game. incredibly simple to describe game.
06:13:24 <quintopia> the two fighting programs are just descriptions of 2D totalistic CAs, where the states are given by numbers. the battle happens by just concatenating the two rulesets and applying it, plugging in 0 for "ME" and 1 for "THEM" on one set, and the reverse on the other set. if the playfield is more 0 at the end of 1000000 cycles, player 1 wins, if its more 1, player 2 wins,
06:14:58 <quintopia> well, hmm, it might be better if player 2's states are all incremented to be above the maximum value player 1 used. then no conflict resolution is necessary
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06:15:52 <quintopia> so that's the whole game. and i bet it's the deepest programming game ever invented
06:17:18 <quintopia> hmm it'd be more fun if you could know and mess with the other player's states on purpose
06:17:30 <quintopia> i'll have to think on the conflict resolution
06:19:58 <quintopia> just have it automatically remap "-1" to "what the other player sees as 1" and likewise for -2 etc.
06:20:17 <quintopia> and disallow those from appearing on the left side of a transition
06:21:20 <ais523> btw, example.com was redesigned again
06:21:27 <quintopia> so the playfield would always start with a 1 and a -1 far from each other
06:23:26 <coppro> ais523: redesigning example.org
06:23:28 <ais523> I like the fact that someone's maintaining it
06:23:39 <coppro> I find that incredibly amusing for some reason
06:23:57 <ais523> especially because it doesn't exist, by definition
06:24:19 <coppro> ok, that's awesome: https://twitter.com/dkennedyglans/status/410973896267948032/photo/1
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08:23:14 <ais523> found via Reddit: someone's written a compiler from BF into ELF relocations, that work via making the dynamic loader overwrite its own internal state: https://github.com/bx/elf-bf-tools
08:42:07 <oklopol> Hen ja ne, anta <<< does this mean "lol u so silly ^_______________^"
08:42:30 <olsner> I think it does, pretty much
08:44:50 <oklopol> "<pikhq> Though, "to" isn't really the word "and" at all." <<< tswett used it as infix tho, isn't it and then?
08:46:00 <oklopol> '<pikhq> "ya" is more "etc."' in finnish, "ya" means "and". written "ja" though.
08:49:53 <oklopol> so we have two articles where we talk about commutators of cellular automata
08:50:07 <oklopol> and turns out they are both about centralizers
08:50:40 <oklopol> just somehow i never connected the dots even though i see both basic group theory stuff and our article pretty much every week
08:52:25 <oklopol> (neither did the referees, but these were just conference papers; although referees usually don't notice any actual problems in journal submissions either, they just notice whether you cite his articles)
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08:56:43 <oklopol> it's funny how you can spend hundreds of hours on something and not notice that even the fucking _title_ has a horrible mistake.
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10:00:27 <fizzie> (Also "Why" could well be a name of a journal.)
10:00:36 <fizzie> Science, Nature and Why.
10:23:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: it might not be that the reviewer is from that group. if the reviewer finds one article from that group, than lots of references and searches will likely lead him to find other articles by that group.
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10:27:26 <ion> wat http://www.hastac.org/blogs/ari-schlesinger/2013/11/26/feminism-and-programming-languages
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11:21:14 <mroman> Didn't somebody earlier mention a programming game using 2D automatons?
11:22:31 <mroman> but there must be restrictions on how many offspring a cell can produce and how many enemies it can eat
11:24:56 <oklopol> fizzie: recently we had this sort of thing, but not suggestions but "you need to include the following". it didn't have much to do with anything, but we fixed everything else. we tried again and the comment was "the paper is now fine, except that the authors need to cite xxx even though they decided to use a different technique".
11:24:58 <mroman> like can produce one offspring per cecly or kill one enemy cell per cycle
11:25:20 <mroman> that or you consider killing and producing offspring the same thing
11:25:32 <oklopol> basically everyone has a paper with similar computations, and he wants us to cite exactly his even though it's something very specific (and very different).
11:27:47 * atriq is once again researching my family tree
11:28:44 <oklopol> some time ago i reviewed something that proved a special case of something i had in my master's thesis
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11:38:39 <atriq> Apparently my gran's uncle was a gas worker, not a barber as we had previously thought
11:51:54 <fizzie> oklopol: That's kind of a brazen thing to do, but I guess as a reviewer it's certainly possible.
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14:16:14 <fizzie> I think Google Calendar could have some confidence measure threshold for the "map" links it adds to "where" fields of events.
14:17:39 <fizzie> Like this one event has a "where" description of "lecture room E110 near Paavo's office (E-wing, ground floor)", and there's a map link that just leads to a maps.google page saying "We could not understand the location Paavo's office (E-wing, ground floor)".
14:18:59 <boily> it wasn't specified if they meant E-wing, France, or E-wing, Alabama.
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14:37:40 <ion> An ad by the local chili-and-other-condiments store. http://youtu.be/f4GA7godwJ4
14:40:57 <ion> http://www.gog.com/promo/fallout_series_giveaway_winter_promo_2013
14:46:22 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. how would you `ello atriq?
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14:47:34 <boily> it doesn't sound right to me... there needs to be an “o” somewhere. maybe hellåtriq?
15:13:53 <fizzie> ion: Heh, tried to log in, got "We're overwhelmed by popularity of our service ;) Please check back soon!"
15:16:09 <fizzie> Tried again, and got a "404: oh noes, there's nothing in here" page.
15:16:28 <fizzie> Maybe I'll go shopping/home and see if things improve. ->
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15:48:16 <boily> sometimes, wikipedia is just silly → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaborretni
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16:34:52 <metasepia> LOWI 121620Z VRB01KT CAVOK 01/M03 Q1029 NOSIG
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16:37:15 <metasepia> CYUL 121600Z 23008G17KT 15SM FEW011 SCT015 SCT120 M14/M18 A3026 RMK SF1SC2AC1 PRESFR SLP250
16:39:26 <int-e> interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon
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16:41:16 <boily> I wonder if I could weld a pigeon on an Inter Continental Ballistic Mapole...
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16:45:42 <int-e> the Bat Bomb is also interesting.
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16:46:24 <int-e> So a mapole is a remote pecking device?
16:47:28 <boily> it can be used to prod, poke, peck, thwack, stir, and to slice pineapples!
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16:51:31 <Chillectual> someone make an esolang based on feynmann diagrams.
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16:57:33 <Chillectual> implementing renormalization would be.. overkill.
17:00:56 <Slereah> Chillectual : Also with which fields
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17:03:19 <Chillectual> Why not go with the electromagnetic field. Feynman would be proud.
17:03:58 <Slereahphone> Well you could probably make some sort of probabilistic logical gates
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17:04:33 <Slereahphone> Really a real circuit is just a bunch of Feynman diagrams anyway
17:04:48 <coppro> design a language where the input-output system and the main code are perpendicular
17:05:24 <Chillectual> I suppose that "language" is real circuits.
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17:06:15 <Slereahphone> Well you can make something simpler than just emulating a circuit
17:06:31 <Slereahphone> Hell you could make a quantum computer perhaps
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17:06:54 <Chillectual> yet implementing field renormalization would be goddamn overkill.
17:07:25 <Chillectual> unless you're implementing it on some sort of lattice.
17:07:59 <Slereahphone> I do have a plan for a spacetime cellular automaton
17:09:45 <Chillectual> implementing discrete gravity wells was a project I had in my head a while ago.
17:09:57 <Slereahphone> Basically like some game of life except with a concept of distance
17:10:00 <Chillectual> when I was "trying" to establish a CA that approximated physical law.
17:10:41 <Chillectual> well, not impossible.. just hard to manage.
17:10:55 <Chillectual> (implementing a CA that approximated currently known physical law)
17:11:31 <Slereahphone> Well it's what people do when they do numerical simulations basically
17:13:45 <Chillectual> but a real CA involves complex state transitions. if you're just going to do a numerical simulation on a set of data that's different.
17:14:43 <Chillectual> I mean you could simulate a theoretically infinite number of states per cell, but you would then need to define explicit transitions between infinite states.
17:15:28 <Chillectual> A CA in a sense is a FSM translated into a "2D universe"
17:15:41 <Slereahphone> I just want to see if I can turn spacetime computer :(
17:16:39 <Chillectual> nd cellular automata exist.. but wrap your head around a 6D CA.
17:17:03 <Slereahphone> The idea is basically some spacetime, a scalar field on it and detectors for IO
17:17:04 <Chillectual> practical for eyeballing 2D or 3D makes sense. :P
17:17:40 <Chillectual> what you could do is define a set of peturbance states.
17:19:02 <Slereahphone> I am thinking maybe using some 64 bit number as states of the field and turn it in colors to represent it graphically
17:19:20 <Chillectual> I would reccomend you implement layers of abstraction.
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17:20:41 <Slereah_> Let's see if this computer works okay now
17:20:43 <Chillectual> the only established constants you would need are..
17:20:43 <Slereah_> The thing is I'm not sure how to set up logical gates in such a setting
17:20:44 <Slereah_> I do know some things about G-wave collisions
17:21:32 <Slereah_> From what I remember the basics are that if they go the same direction, then they don't interact
17:21:32 <Slereah_> If it's opposite, singularities are involved
17:21:42 <Slereah_> Not sure how that translates to the discrete regime
17:22:00 <Chillectual> if you're on a discrete spacetime singularities are effectively gone.
17:23:14 <int-e> quantum field theory. I know what a field is, it's a ring with multiplicative inverses.
17:23:15 <Slereah_> I was thinking of just doing it as the field does
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17:24:21 <Chillectual> each cell has to eventually drop back to a default state if not interacted with, yeah?
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17:24:39 <Slereah_> But here I'm talking about a classical kind of field
17:24:39 <Slereah_> I don't want to compute propagators
17:25:44 <Chillectual> so let's say you have a peturbance at some point somewhere in the universe.
17:25:47 <int-e> Chillectual: Why, I feel at home there. I'm not a physicist.
17:26:13 <Chillectual> good. physics is boring an arbitrary. fuck nature.
17:26:49 <Chillectual> so this peturbance will effectively be seen as a "dent" in whatever field you want to peturb.
17:26:56 <int-e> (and by "there" I mean the place where fields (which are rings) live)
17:26:58 <Slereah_> I think a cell that is not "interacted with" will drop off, yeah
17:27:07 <Slereah_> Because scalar fields tend to propagate
17:27:30 <Chillectual> so effectively you have to define some function regarding not states of a neighborhood.
17:28:26 <Slereah_> Although I think it is possible to have a state that just sits there
17:29:38 <Slereah_> Hell I am wondering if I even need the scalar fied
17:29:46 <Slereah_> I could just work out everything with G-waves
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17:29:58 <Slereah_> although then the detector would be two cells long
17:30:25 <Chillectual> what I did in my first experiment was effectively define a summation function that applied to every state.
17:30:34 <Chillectual> so instead of having a gigantifuckinghuge "switch/case".
17:31:25 <Chillectual> the cell being evaluated would then be equal to the summation of the states around it.
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17:42:12 <Slereah> Well on the laptop with phone connection
17:42:19 <Slereah> Let's hope this works better
17:43:29 <LinearInterpol> one thing I've never liked CAs is that, yes they are impressive, but they are so fragile.
17:44:05 <Slereah> Do you mean the whole "remove a square" thing
17:44:32 <Slereah> Well a lot of programs are like that
17:44:34 <int-e> argh. "certificate authorities" clashes with "cellular automata"
17:44:41 <Slereah> I mean, remove one instruction or functions in most esolangs
17:45:00 <int-e> "I've never liked CAs" made perfect sense ;)
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17:45:10 <Slereah_> I mean, remove one instruction or functions in most esolangs
17:45:21 <Slereah_> So it turns out phone connection isn't that good either
17:45:34 <Slereah_> I'd better call my ISP this week end because fuck this shit
17:45:40 <LinearInterpol> they're a great model to be sure, but I keep wanting myself to shift towards more of an agent based model.
17:46:02 <Slereah_> I kinda like all the methods of computations
17:46:07 <LinearInterpol> a sort of separation between the processing and the environment.
17:46:13 <Slereah_> Because it is such a great thing that there's so many equivalent ones
17:46:23 <int-e> (Even the fragility part, but I have a hard time thinking of CAs as impressive. Which is funny, since being impressive is at the core of their business model. "Trust this certificate, because *WE* trust it, too.")
17:47:15 <Slereah_> Hell there's a pretty close equivalent between your computer and a CA!
17:47:36 <Slereah_> The Wireworld CA is a pretty good approximation of digital electronics
17:48:22 <int-e> "grid computing" ;-)
17:48:25 <Slereah_> Even worse, it is a particle automaton!
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17:49:17 <Slereah_> I once had to work with such a code
17:49:49 <Slereah_> I had to maintain some VBA code from some interns
17:50:22 <Slereah_> Maybe not advanced I forget, but it's a VB derivative
17:50:24 <int-e> LinearInterpol: virtual boy advance is a gameboy emulator.
17:50:33 <Slereah_> It's the "language" of Excel and Word
17:50:35 <LinearInterpol> int-e: that is the first thing that jumped into my mind.
17:52:39 -!- Slereahphone has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi).
17:53:00 <Slereah_> Really I am curious to see when we will have commericially available computers that aren't based on digital electronics
17:53:16 <Slereah_> I want to see what quantum assembly looks like
17:53:34 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_integrator
17:54:14 <LinearInterpol> hell your computer is already running on quantum electrodynamics.
17:54:14 <Slereah_> Still, I am curious as to alternatives
17:54:23 <Slereah_> Like some physical neural network type computer
17:54:45 <FireFly> What about crab-based computing?
17:54:59 <LinearInterpol> FireFly: there is only one instruction, and it is crab.
17:55:05 <int-e> LinearInterpol: do devices such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planimeter qualify?
17:55:09 <Slereah_> Really I mostly want quantum computing to go to companies and say "Hey look, I have a degree in CS and particle physics!"
17:56:17 <boily> fungot it. there is such a thing as crab based computing → http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/13/researchers-say-crab-based-computing-possible-lobsters-throw-up/
17:56:17 <fungot> boily: thanks for telling me
17:56:21 <LinearInterpol> Slereah_: quantum computing is already alive and well. the result is our current transistor technology.
17:56:34 <boily> fungot: my pleasure.
17:56:34 <fungot> boily: the argument to include?
17:56:38 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetware_computer
17:56:45 <boily> fungot: always include. deletionists are a sad bunch.
17:56:45 <fungot> boily: nor " fnord tekee hyv fnord ja on fnord fnord fnord
17:57:10 <LinearInterpol> simulating logic gates using voltage potential between neurons.
17:57:39 <Slereah_> But, if you can do actual neuron things
17:57:53 <LinearInterpol> go ahead and try to teach a dumb shit clump of neurons how to do XOR.
17:58:12 <Slereah_> I have neurons and I can do a xor!
17:59:10 <LinearInterpol> billions and billions of neurons compacted within a tight space.
17:59:15 <Slereah_> Most of my brain is doing useless bullshit though
17:59:29 <Slereah_> Like keeping my heart beating or feelings in my penis
17:59:44 <Slereah_> Imagine if it was all for computing!
17:59:50 <Slereah_> Also there's only about a hundred billions!
17:59:52 <FireFly> I'm happy that there is an entity called 'Unconventional Computing Centre', and that it was involved with the crabputing matters
17:59:59 <int-e> which is why when you take red xor blue, your brain will eventually recognize that this is an ill-formed problem, but most likely also try to come up with colors where this might make sense :)
18:00:29 <Slereah_> Neurons have this neat thing that they can probably be used for like
18:00:55 <LinearInterpol> do you realize how long it would take to teach a bunch of neurons how to function even remotely as a normal computer.
18:00:55 <Slereah_> I'd love to see a Kolmogorov machine based on neurons
18:01:00 <FireFly> int-e: so, what would you choose? the red pill, xor the blue pill?
18:01:16 <Slereah_> LinearInterpol : Well never with THAT attitude
18:02:05 <int-e> FireFly: purple. I don't like purple.
18:02:16 <Slereah_> Plus you are missing an important thing
18:02:23 <Slereah_> You could power that computer with sugar
18:02:31 <Slereah_> I CAN JUST POUR PURPLE DRANK IN IT
18:03:14 <int-e> FireFly: It would be funny. You'd forget everything and wake up in the "real" world. Would make the transition a lot easier, I suppose.
18:03:31 <int-e> (There are no effects that the 'xor' would cancel out.)
18:03:40 <Slereah_> I really don't know why they'd even go in the real world
18:05:15 <int-e> Were they sent to Hell? -- Worse. Wisconsin. For the entire span of human history.
18:05:35 <Slereah_> There was an episode of Red Letter Media like that
18:05:50 <Slereah_> Where they are sent to hell and one of them is like "Look, it's hell!"
18:06:00 <int-e> Anyway. The thermodynamics in that movie are all wrong. I conclude that the so-called "real world" must be a simulation.
18:06:22 <Slereah_> Matrix is really a poor movie on metaphysics
18:06:30 <Slereah_> Dark Star is much better in the domain
18:06:32 <int-e> (Sorry. *that* movie was The Matrix, not Dogma.)
18:08:46 <Slereah_> Hey, you know what's a movie between Dogma and The Matrix?
18:08:53 <Slereah_> Bill and Ted's excellent adventure
18:09:02 <Slereah_> It has both Keanu Reeves and George Carlin!
18:09:22 <Slereah_> Kevin Bacon is probably not too far
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18:14:06 <LinearInterpol> Who the actual fuck made this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
18:14:53 <boily> oh. RFNHS3SDD. that one has a peculiar backstory.
18:15:17 <boily> LinearInterpol: ask Taneb for further details. hth.
18:16:05 <Slereah_> The title reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudebro:_My_Shit_Is_Fucked_Up_So_I_Got_to_Shoot/Slice_You_II:_It%27s_Straight-Up_Dawg_Time
18:21:43 <boily> lesson of the day: don't read the backlog random fragment by random fragment. Slereah_, you are a perverted mass of neurons.
18:22:50 <Slereah_> I am actually just a brain in a jar plugged to an ethernet cable
18:23:11 <Bike> LinearInterpol: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1714080/ it's a classic!
18:23:52 <Slereah_> I am awaiting for other movies like "OTTER devastation"
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18:26:29 <fizzie> Huh, it's not "Real Fast Nora" but plain Nora in reality? *disappoint*
18:26:31 <Slereah_> Let's make Brainfuck II : Electric Boogaloo
18:27:04 <fizzie> In retrospect, I guess it's a Real Fast -- Download. Huh. I've always interpreted it to be the hair salon of Real Fast Nora.
18:27:05 <LinearInterpol> it's like when you try to search for shit like mp3 downloads.
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18:27:25 <fizzie> IIRC, it's from a spam some bot added in the wiki.
18:27:52 <Slereah_> One time I got as an emule result "Hottest videos of Cambridge University English Dictionary"
18:27:59 <Slereah_> I was intrigued but suspiscious
18:28:43 <Slereah_> I should have researched for other things
18:29:01 <Slereah_> Like "Cyst removal" or "Auschwitz footage"
18:29:10 <Slereah_> To see if it would propose me the hottest videos of ti
18:30:09 <Slereah_> I hope it involves the donkey and ox
18:30:25 <Slereah_> Three wise men and a donkey on Mary
18:30:44 <Slereah_> That sure ain't a virgin birth!
18:31:46 <Slereah_> I am but a humble brain in a jar
18:32:29 <LinearInterpol> And I'm a collection of an uncountable number of packets of energy.
18:35:10 <Slereah_> http://demotivators.despair.com/demotivational/knowledgedemotivator.jpg
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19:00:40 <kmc> wow what a convo to miss
19:02:28 <boily> I hope fungot will have learned from it.
19:02:29 <fungot> boily: but given that other languages ( it applies to the wrong cat.
19:03:10 <boily> fungot: of course if you change the language, the cat won't understand. and would you please balance your parenthesises? )
19:08:06 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
19:10:14 <boily> prooftechellonique.
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19:25:34 <doesthiswork> boily if you want I can scan the logs to check the balance of left to right parens
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19:26:10 <olsner> can you make a graph of the imbalance over time?
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19:30:42 <mrhmouse> doesthiswork: I, too, would like to see this graph
19:31:12 <boily> I second the motion.
20:00:17 <fungot> mrhmouse: and as i said earlier should make a t-shirt that just says frob-grovel-full-lexical-mumble. i normally run it in cygwin.
20:00:29 <kmc> fungot: i would buy that shirt
20:00:29 <fungot> kmc: uhh fnord/ new2/ or something, fnord it up to be
20:00:33 -!- Bike has joined.
20:00:39 <mrhmouse> fungot: so would I; where can I purchase this?
20:00:39 <fungot> mrhmouse: vittu miks ei toi homo paska vittu saatana fnord tota paskaa vittu jumalauta perkele vittu, olipa kiva tulla fnord kotiin :dddd can
20:01:09 <kmc> why did fungot suddenly become finnish
20:01:36 <boily> I want a frob-grovel-full-lexical-mumble tee.
20:01:43 <fungot> int-e: sure, but waving? ouch! you lose!
20:02:03 <int-e> touche (boily will add the accent for me I'm sure)
20:02:20 <EgoBot> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
20:02:20 <mrhmouse> boily: I'll design one tonight and stick it on one of those zazzle-like websites
20:02:55 <mrhmouse> doesthiswork: could you do another with just fungot? the closing parens might be other users "helping out" :)
20:02:56 <fungot> mrhmouse: it's one of the tenured prof, btw). i don't read demi. have you prooved that ( not ( null? mem) in function f to see be able to
20:03:13 <boily> int-e: stop reading my mińd.
20:04:00 <boily> mrhmouse: could you use wordans? their Montréal office are close by :D
20:04:50 <olsner> `pastelog frob-grovel-full-lexical-mumble
20:05:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1258
20:06:13 <olsner> I guess fizzie got that word from another channel
20:06:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:06:34 <mrhmouse> boily: maybe? also I may not get around to it tonight.. I forgot I have dinner plans :I
20:07:10 <boily> dinner? plans? does it involve being sharply dressed, and eating stuff with French names?
20:07:37 <boily> (pâté d'émincé de purée de rôti de bœuf and other things with plenty of accents?)
20:07:56 <mrhmouse> boily: it involves being dressed in layers and drinking hot chocolate
20:09:59 <olsner> boily: do you usually give your food names before eating it?
20:11:40 <boily> mrhmouse: something I should do with my SO. the current temperature lends well to a hot chocolate.
20:11:52 <boily> nooodl_: c'est pas des sacres, juste de la cuisine.
20:12:46 <boily> olsner: I usually call things I cook something like «l'affaire avec du riz pis des choses dessus».
20:13:14 <metasepia> CYUL 122000Z 18008KT 15SM FEW038 OVC090 M11/M16 A3010 RMK SC2AC6 SLP197
20:13:24 <olsner> boily: ok, not like "jacques" or "serge"?
20:13:27 <boily> yup. good time for enhotchocolatenment.
20:14:07 <boily> olsner: oh, only animals I dissect, like that piglet we had once during a biology lab. our team called it Glenda.
20:16:04 <metasepia> YMML 122000Z 00000KT 9999 FEW017 SCT023 BKN280 14/12 Q1013 NOSIG
20:17:32 <int-e> sounds like a nice summer morning
20:19:38 * int-e wonders what relevance the dew point has for aircraft.
20:21:40 <olsner> I think it implicitly measures humidity, which might be relevant
20:21:50 <int-e> but ok, the outside of the airplane including wings and windows will be cold.
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20:25:08 <int-e> the data also indicates risk of fog.
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20:27:42 <olsner> http://www.flightlearnings.com/2011/10/29/temperaturedew-point-relationship/
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20:31:13 <FireFly> Ah well, we still have fungot to provide us with interesting trivia
20:31:14 <fungot> FireFly: i'll try back in another 6 months. space bar sticks, ctl key sometimes doesn't press and i'm easy on them.
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20:31:51 <FireFly> fungot: good, but the whole idea of you using a keyboard is a bit hard to imagine
20:31:52 <fungot> FireFly: try looking up " to dribble" at leo or so :) it's an output-only language that's unsuitable for computation :) i'll just benchmark the whole stuff... :) heheh just to have it
20:33:58 <boily> fungot: you should use a mechanical keyboard. and don't dribble on lions; it's a generally bad idea.
20:33:59 <fungot> boily: i had no reason to think it was the innermost?
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22:12:15 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/umlbox", line 296, in <module> \ conff.close() \ IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device
22:18:10 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/umlbox", line 296, in <module> \ conff.close() \ IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device
22:19:05 <FireFly> I wonder if the hg web interface it hosts still works...
22:20:25 <mrhmouse> FireFly: I'm guessing just the VM is full? I would assume that the HG interface isn't part of the VM.
22:20:44 <fizzie> That's not the first time "no space left on device" has happened.
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23:03:21 <oerjan> <int-e> interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon <-- yet another species losing employment to machines :(
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23:04:24 <Bike> skinner could get pigeons to play ping-pong, i'm pretty sure he could get them to guide a stupid bomb
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00:04:23 <shachaf> the #2 link on reddit.com/r/haskell is incredible
00:05:23 * kmc fails a "better judgement" roll
00:06:40 <kmc> i like "do" it lets me think that "i get into monad naow"
00:07:56 <Bike> this is no fucking idea?
00:10:13 <Bike> the fork io thing
00:10:17 <shachaf> me talking about it in this channel?
00:10:40 <Bike> truly we live in a post-animal world
00:10:55 <shachaf> is people using @faq six times in a row in #haskell spam
00:12:22 <kmc> does that go to my faq now
00:12:50 <shachaf> int-e: Can you make @faq link to the FAQ on the wiki?
00:12:52 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
00:12:56 <kmc> i thought that changed in the past
00:13:03 <kmc> maybe it changed back :'(
00:13:10 <kmc> whatever Not My Problem™
00:13:44 <shachaf> my /ignore list is now 37 entries long
00:13:51 <shachaf> perhaps i can make #haskell good that way
00:16:27 <oerjan> <kmc> i like "do" it lets me think that "i get into monad naow"
00:17:00 <kmc> that's a quote from the author in that reddit thread
00:17:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
00:17:36 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
00:18:35 <shachaf> :t \x -> \y -> x + y :: Int :: Int -> Int :: Int -> Int -> Int
00:19:37 <Bike> it's parsing as (\y -> x + (y :: Int)) :: Int -> Int etc right
00:19:58 <oerjan> Bike: um pretty sure the x + y go together.
00:20:19 <shachaf> (\y -> (x + y) :: Int) :: Int -> Int and so on.
00:21:09 <oerjan> i suppose it's correct.
00:21:25 <oerjan> the second :: forces the inner lambda to end.
00:23:35 <oerjan> > do do do 5 :: Int :: Int :: Int
00:24:02 <oerjan> i guess that's more plainly by the } insertion rule
00:25:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:25:26 <oerjan> > let in let in let in 5 :: Int :: Int :: Int
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01:18:12 <Sgeo> Tekmo is usually awesome, but is http://www.haskellforall.com/2013/02/you-could-have-invented-comonads.html ok, or is it just going to be bad?
01:18:29 <Sgeo> (It's the 'comonads are objects' article)
01:20:05 <oerjan> istr people didn't generally agree with the assessment.
01:20:29 <shachaf> i disagree with most of his assessments
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01:20:47 <oerjan> shachaf: what, why do you hate categories
01:21:23 <shachaf> can't stand associative operations
01:21:32 <shachaf> esp. if they have identities
01:22:18 <oerjan> shachaf: hm, i think you may have dissociative identity syndrome.
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02:03:31 <shachaf> http://cokmett.github.io/cokmett/
02:05:28 <kmc> also i'm in that photo
02:05:57 <kmc> i'm the guy in the back with the "Bevar Christiania" shirt
02:06:08 <kmc> and no head or right arm or legs
02:09:19 <shachaf> i can confirm that kmc has no head
02:09:25 <shachaf> along with me and douglas harding
02:10:38 <shachaf> i have right arms and legs
02:10:43 <kmc> loaned them out for some quick cash
02:11:10 <shachaf> arms and legs are worth a lot
02:11:25 <Bike> is a cis pair worth more than a trans pair
02:12:08 <oerjan> whew i was wondering if that type declaration was ever going to end
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02:21:02 <oerjan> surely you mean kmc :: Semidetachedoid a f k
03:10:34 <oerjan> doesthiswork: context plz
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03:12:53 <Bike> oerjan: kmc's messages at :05.
03:12:53 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Dec 13 04:12:51 2013
03:13:13 <oerjan> Bike: i'm really just making a timezone statement here.
03:14:01 <oerjan> also i found ph's message after missing it the first time i searched
03:14:58 <doesthiswork> and if it helps I was making a reference to full metal alchemist
03:18:57 <Bike> team devil not him, about a dispute in the power puff girls fan dom
03:21:06 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/umlbox", line 296, in <module> \ conff.close() \ IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device
03:21:17 <oerjan> that should clear it up.
03:24:54 <Gregor> I need a bigger VPS @_@
03:24:59 <Bike> `run true; echo $?
03:26:36 <oerjan> `run filenotfound; echo $?
03:26:38 <HackEgo> bash: filenotfound: command not found \ 127
03:27:39 <oerjan> `run cat filenotfound; echo $?
03:27:40 <HackEgo> cat: filenotfound: No such file or directory \ 1
03:27:54 <oerjan> `run cat --filenotfound; echo $?
03:27:55 <HackEgo> cat: unrecognized option '--filenotfound' \ Try `cat --help' for more information. \ 1
03:28:26 <oerjan> i thought you weren't supposed to return 1 on syntax errors
03:37:13 <monotone> There's not much in terms of exit code convention other than "0 is okay, anything else means something went wrong."
03:39:28 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw7y4_JDkRM roguelike
03:39:49 <Bike> yeah are exit codes even used for anything but && and so on.
03:41:13 <quintopia> Gregor: what exactly happens if we ask hackego to write a really big file? and then we keep doing that? it seems reasonable to think that we could write quite a lot of useless data in under hackego's timeout
03:41:14 <kmc> some commands document multiple non-zero exit codes and some scripts may use them but i'm not thinking of an example right now
03:43:46 <Gregor> quintopia: It has filesize limits as well as time limits.
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03:44:48 <quintopia> Gregor: is there any limit on the rate of file creation
03:45:02 <Gregor> Not really, I suppose.
03:45:20 <quintopia> not that i'm actually going to try and ddos hackego
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06:38:16 <Sgeo> Maybe reading a paper about a hypothetical syntax for comonads may help
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06:41:25 <Sgeo> Oh, I get it (well, the notation... I think)
06:47:20 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
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07:03:25 <kmc> http://www.geekwork.com/opportunity/2270-job-vintage-system-software-developer-and-administrator
07:06:13 <shachaf> `run echo 'Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.' > wisdom/monads
07:07:37 <oerjan> please learn how ? works thx
07:07:47 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
07:07:49 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
07:08:10 * oerjan had forgot what he learned
07:08:51 <oerjan> i'm not sure i approve of having separate plural entries in general.
07:08:56 <shachaf> Oh, I could even have used `learn there.
07:09:08 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(a\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
07:09:08 <shachaf> Oh, `learn drops the plural too?
07:09:28 <oerjan> new feature, it now also drops articles
07:09:32 <shachaf> Can we have multiple possible values for a key?
07:09:40 <shachaf> Then `quote can be a special case of `?.
07:10:59 <kmc> hi myndzi ꙮ_ꙮ
07:11:10 <oerjan> shachaf: btw i think the only reason wisdom/monoids exists is that both entries were added before learn/?'s plural handling.
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07:11:57 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, I think I added it to test how the plural handling works or something.
07:12:21 <shachaf> Anyway, picking a random wisdom line sounds good to me.
07:12:27 <oerjan> it is possible i'm thinking about another entry.
07:13:24 <shachaf> `run echo 'Monoidal categories are just 2-categories with a single object.' > wisdom/'monoidal category'
07:14:38 <oerjan> i suppose i may be thinking of monoidally closed categories.
07:15:39 <shachaf> that's a monoidal category where tensor product has a right adjoint, right
07:16:04 <oerjan> "##Just like for any category E, the full subcategory spanned by any given object is a monoid, it is the case that for any 2-category E, and any object C∈Ob(E), the full 2-subcategory of E spanned by {C} is a monoidal category."
07:16:16 <oerjan> i suppose that hints at your claim.
07:17:07 <shachaf> https://unapologetic.wordpress.com/2007/08/16/2-categories/
07:18:54 <shachaf> oh, that post talks about the category where the arrows are adjunctions
07:18:59 <shachaf> apparently it's a 2-category
07:19:24 <quintopia> i moved all kinda shit around on my computer, and now the shell and the launcher pane both can't find firefox automatically. and i was pretty sure the links were aimed correctly
07:19:35 <shachaf> i mean, an interesting one
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07:20:05 <shachaf> makes sense, i guess, pairs of natural transformations
07:20:12 <shachaf> does this extend to chu spaces somehow
07:20:24 <quintopia> if link to firefox, will the system chase all those softlinks to launch it?
07:21:43 <quintopia> if that one environment variable says to look for things to launch in /usr/bin and /usr/bin is actually a soft link to /usrbin and /usrbin contains a soft-link to firefox elsewhere, will the system properly chase all those links to launch it
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07:40:22 <fizzie> I think it was better before the retyping.
07:41:49 <kmc> quintopia: it should yeah
07:41:54 <myname> why the hell do you have a /usrbin?
07:42:02 <kmc> there is some maximum symlink depth
07:42:22 <kmc> but also I think that would apply to a single filename lookup, and not to e.g. chasing links to find a directory, and then to find files in that directory
07:43:00 <fizzie> There can be more than one maximum symlink depth, it's not terribly well standardized, but I concur with kmc that it doesn't aggregate across different path name components.
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07:43:42 <quintopia> myname: /usr is on a very small partition. i needed to install something new, so i just moved /usr/bin up to / to make space
07:43:44 <kmc> hooray concurrency
07:44:24 <quintopia> yeah i have no idea what's causing this problem then.
07:50:11 <fizzie> Processing Data: c02c0202.mfc; Label c02c0202.lab ERROR [+6510] LOpen: Unable to open label file /[REDACTED]/c02c0202.lc02c0202.mfc why are you looking for a file with a retarded name like that?
07:50:24 <fizzie> Oh, maybe it's yet another buffer overflow problem.
07:51:10 <kmc> unable to open file \x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90
07:51:43 <fizzie> Oh yes, the (non-redacted) path is 268 characters, and "c02c0202.mfc" is 12, and 268-12 is 256, and 256 characters should be enough for everyone.
07:52:21 <kmc> open(filename, O_CLOSE)
07:53:07 <shachaf> clearly creat is just clopen(filename, O_CREAT)
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08:16:55 <quintopia> is there a language where every command just toggles some binary state
08:19:17 <Sgeo> "Haskell, the warm fuzzy nuclear waste."
08:20:47 <kmc> @let (☢) = (>>=)
08:20:47 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Illegal character ''\152''
08:20:59 <kmc> unicode 'fuck you' sign
08:21:27 <kmc> wait they have that now, "Reversed Hand with Middle Finger Extended"
08:21:50 <quintopia> where do they come up with all that shit
08:22:10 <kmc> 420 smoke japan every day
08:22:14 <quintopia> is the middle finger thing like UCS3 or something
08:23:25 <fizzie> !SENT_START BELIEVE ME WE HAVE BE KIND OF AMERICA THIS IS TO COST SAYS !SENT_END
08:23:37 <kmc> it's in Unicode 7.0 and I don't think there's a corresponding ISO/IEC 10646 version yet
08:23:54 <kmc> it's in the Supplementary Multilingual Plane
08:24:12 <quintopia> apparently middle fingers are pretty universal
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08:25:55 <fizzie> U+1F596 RAISED HAND WITH PART BETWEEN MIDDLE AND RING FINGERS
08:26:21 <kmc> "ring finger"??? that's not culturally neutral
08:26:47 <fizzie> http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Blog/Images/1F594_5_6.png that hand looks really awkward.
08:27:23 <fizzie> But it's good to finally get the REVERSED VICTORY HAND to complement the VICTORY HAND of the BMP.
08:27:40 <fizzie> (Now, is that REVERSED (VICTORY HAND) or (REVERSED VICTORY) HAND?)
08:27:56 <kmc> now all we need is RAISED HAND WITH EXTENDED INDEX AND MIDDLE FINGERS TOGETHER AND EXTENDED LITTLE FINGER
08:28:07 <fizzie> Reversed victory, a well-known euphemism for a defeat.
08:28:20 <fizzie> I didn't fail, I just reverse-succeeded.
08:28:47 <quintopia> kmc: it's a total shocker to me they haven't already
08:29:44 * quintopia wonders if finland gets kmc's joke
08:29:56 <kmc> hi finland
08:30:12 <quintopia> there are a lot of finland here. are you talking to all of them?
08:30:20 <fizzie> This part of Finland didn't. It must not be culturally neutral.
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08:33:53 <fizzie> Oh, it's that thing, I had in fact heard of it.
08:34:14 <kmc> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%80_(%D0%B6%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82) w/ rhyme translations
08:34:24 <kmc> good mroman to you too
08:35:09 <mroman> I hope nobody reads my name as Mr. Oman
08:35:47 <mroman> Although I'd have nothing against owning some rich-of-oil sultan-state
08:35:51 <farrioth> mroman: I read it as morman for a second.
08:36:06 <HackEgo> farrioth: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:36:25 <kmc> taste the rainbow
08:36:34 <kmc> mroman: how should I read it?
08:37:13 <mroman> The m is just there because "roman" is already taken
08:37:18 <HackEgo> FaRrIoTh: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
08:37:29 <mroman> and the m is the first letter of my laste name
08:37:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: W31c0m3: not found
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08:38:06 <farrioth> Incedentally I've read the wiki for a while.
08:38:09 <olsner> mroman: you could be Mr Oman
08:40:05 <farrioth> quintopia: From memory I made some minor edits to the Befunge page a while ago.
08:40:49 <farrioth> It's the only language I'm reasonably good at.
08:40:55 <quintopia> are you more of an implementation, use, or design sort of person
08:41:36 <farrioth> quintopia: Use, although I wrote a Befunge-93 interpreter the other day. And I'v had a few vague design ideas.
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08:57:47 <mroman> You could write an interpreter for spacefish 1D
08:59:34 <mroman> It's based on the idea of antennas sending data at some specific level/amplitude
08:59:48 <mroman> and an outside observer measures the level/amplitude/intensity of the signal
09:00:09 <mroman> however, if other antennas near other antennas also emit signals they overlap and cause distortien
09:00:40 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacefish
09:00:58 <mroman> That and you can't place antennas outside the range of other antenas
09:01:23 <mroman> that's the idea. And I figured that could be applied to Brainfuck
09:01:41 <farrioth> mroman: I was about to say, it looks like Brainfuck2D with distortion.
09:02:01 <mroman> It esentially is Brainfuck with distortion, yes
09:03:43 <mroman> but it would be boring if you could just use every 256th cell so you'll always be out of distortion range of any other cell
09:03:49 <mroman> therefore you only start with one cell
09:03:59 <mroman> and the range of distortion expands the space
09:04:19 <mroman> which means that a cell outside the range of distortion of any other cell is actually a non-existing cell
09:04:32 <mroman> (i.e. that space does not exist outside distortion ranges)
09:05:29 <farrioth> The code there is for the 1D version, right?
09:06:34 <mroman> The code there uses a fixed array and just skips over undistorted cells when doing > or <
09:06:40 <mroman> there might be better approaches to handle this
09:06:58 <farrioth> What is the data structure of space[ptr]? It's a list of length 2...
09:06:59 <mroman> the distortion is log2
09:07:09 * farrioth is better at writing code than reading it.
09:07:20 <mroman> farrioth: space[ptr][0] is the level the antenna is sending at
09:07:28 <mroman> and space[ptr][1] is the distortion
09:07:35 <mroman> It's probably better to start with clean code :)
09:07:46 <mroman> I'm not really a Python guy
09:09:50 <farrioth> Python does allow for comments though, you know...
09:11:07 <farrioth> So the data is basically a tape which is writable only adjacent to filled cells?
09:17:25 <quintopia> it's only writable in *distorted* cells
09:18:11 <farrioth> Cool. If a cell was distorted, but then ceases to be distorted does it remain writable?
09:29:05 <farrioth> Can you move the pointer to a cell that isn't writable?
09:30:12 <fizzie> !SENT_START NO ONE'S U. S. FOR THE F. S. R. I. C. NEEDS MORE MONEY !SENT_END
09:30:55 <fizzie> fungot: Why can't you ever sound as intelligible as these outputs?
09:30:55 <fungot> fizzie: no, it's fun!!! fnord is not).
09:33:11 <mroman> farrioth: Then the cell dies
09:33:26 <mroman> if a cell moves out of the distortion range of another cell it ceases to exist
09:34:46 <mroman> the fact is, that two non-adjacent cells can become adjacent if the space between those cells ceases to exist
09:36:16 <mroman> I assume that can happen :)
09:37:10 <mroman> farrioth: I think we recently discussed in this channel
09:37:20 <mroman> that every cell must have a "path" to the initial cell
09:38:27 <mroman> that means: If you have [1,0,*1*,1] (where ** denotes the initial cell)
09:38:37 <mroman> you actually have to delete the first element
09:38:37 <farrioth> That means that, in practice, the indeces of your data change.
09:39:05 <mroman> ah. replace the initial cell with 2
09:39:15 <farrioth> And also that you can never read a 0, which makes ( useless.
09:39:40 <farrioth> If I'm not mistaken, which I might be.
09:39:55 <farrioth> But I know I am hungry, so will be back soon.
09:39:56 <mroman> If you intially had [1,0,8,1] but decrement it to [1,0,2,1]
09:40:15 <mroman> the space shrinks to [0,2,1]
09:41:00 <quintopia> i've just sneezed for the seventh time in a row help
09:41:15 <quintopia> this room has no tissues for my issues
09:41:18 <mroman> You can think of it as every antenna must be able to send data to the initial antenna (other antennas might repeat that data)
09:41:45 <mroman> farrioth: It's probably wise to have index 0 be the initial cell
09:41:51 <mroman> and index -1 to be the cell left to it
09:41:56 <mroman> and index 1 to be the cell right to it
09:42:38 <mroman> farrioth: And you can read a zero
09:43:04 <mroman> If you have the value 255 in a cell which is distorted by 1
09:43:12 <mroman> the measurable value changes to 0
09:43:19 <mroman> (wrap around like brainfuck)
09:43:25 <farrioth> mroman: Ah, yes, that makes sense.
09:44:03 <mroman> Theres the cell's own value (the intensity the antenna is sending at) and a measurable value
09:44:46 <farrioth> mroman: So the cell disappears if the 'sending' value is zero, but not if the 'recieving' value is zero.
09:45:24 <quintopia> mroman: you know what would be fun? a language where you can put antennas anywhere, but they are the only way to modify cells. Plus, they don't just attenuate normally, they create standing alternating waves that constructively and destructively interfere.
09:45:57 <mroman> a cell disappears if it is not affected by distortion
09:46:10 <mroman> so cell with sending value 0 do exist
09:46:28 <mroman> Initially you start with [0]
09:46:39 <mroman> if you increment it to two 2
09:46:47 <mroman> you have a distortion range of 1 around that cell
09:46:52 <mroman> therefore space expands to [0,2,0]
09:47:21 <mroman> if you decrement the initial cell to 1 the distortion range drops to zero
09:47:30 <mroman> and therefore space shrinks to [1]
09:48:28 <farrioth> mroman: If the sending value can never be 0, that would mean that it is impossible to read a 0.
09:48:50 <quintopia> farrioth: you know how when you hold an antenna close to another antenna there's a lot of feedback and things change rather unexpectedly and nonlinearly?
09:49:06 <quintopia> farrioth: be warned that situations like that are common in spacefish
09:49:41 <quintopia> farrioth: the sending value can be zero. just probably don't want to try to read a zero from the initial cell
09:50:07 <mroman> farrioth: Like I said: The sending value can be zero
09:50:42 <mroman> A sending value expands the space by log2 of its sending value
09:52:21 <farrioth> mroman: < mroman> so cell with sending value 0 do exist
09:52:36 <quintopia> so a cell with value zero makes contracts all of space to a point (by expanding space by negative infinity)
09:53:16 <quintopia> or does that just expand space infinitely in the opposite direction?
09:53:36 <farrioth> You want to expand space by 1/inf I think.
09:53:46 <farrioth> And so the point does still exist?
09:56:10 <farrioth> But you were using the log values to calculate the effect on other cells, not to move/delete them, right?
09:56:37 <mroman> A cell with sending value 0 does not expand space
09:56:42 <mroman> it does not distort anything
09:57:09 <mroman> farrioth: You have to delete all cells (except the initial cell) that are not distorted
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09:57:20 <mroman> http://codepad.org/foE6Odji
09:58:59 <farrioth> mroman: That makes much more sense, thanks.
10:00:19 <mroman> You can start at the initial cell
10:00:26 <mroman> and search to the left for the first undistorted cell
10:00:46 <mroman> and then remove the undistorted cell and every cell to the left of that cell (because it has no connection to the initial cell anymore)
10:00:51 <mroman> then the same thing to the right
10:01:54 <farrioth> Ah okay, so the undistorted cells don't just cease to exist and collapse, but the 'tape gets cut off' at an undistorted cell.
10:02:25 <farrioth> Which means I can implement it as left and right lists, which is handy.
10:03:06 <mroman> http://codepad.org/VUryyN4C <- like in this scenario
10:03:16 <mroman> the two eights would keep each other alive
10:03:25 <mroman> but they have no connection to the initial cell (4)
10:03:35 <mroman> so the two eights must die
10:03:42 <mroman> farrioth: Yes @Left and right lists
10:04:12 <mroman> farrioth: Yep @cut off
10:05:48 <farrioth> Using log_2() for distortion means that the values may be floats, but the cells only store ints, right?
10:06:27 <farrioth> So how does it work if I read a value (with distortion), which is a float, increment it, and store it in a cell (as an int)?
10:06:30 <mroman> Cells are 8 bit values unsigned integeres
10:06:48 <quintopia> it's much harder in spacefish 2D. you have to reverse the distortion of a deleted cell before you can figure out what else needs deleting. unless you maintain a tree that maps the connections of every written cell to the initial cell.
10:08:08 <quintopia> farrioth: count the number of bits starting from the most significant 1 bit. then subtract 1. that's how far out the distortion goes. the distorted cell has floor (1/2*sending cell).
10:08:15 <mroman> farrioth: The distortion of 255 is 127, 63, 31 and so on
10:09:11 <farrioth> quintopia: Can't you just use the distortion matrix itself to check for connections?
10:10:12 <mroman> math.floor(math.log(sendingValue)/math.log(2)) is how far a cell distorts
10:10:24 <mroman> and the distortion is cut in half at every cell
10:11:54 <quintopia> farrioth: that's the first method. modify the distortion matrix as a result of a cell deletion, then see if that caused any other deletions. propagate as needed. it works, but means some operations might suddenly hang the interpreter while it propagates a massive wave of cell deletions.
10:12:23 <farrioth> quintopia: You'd get that with any method, wouldn't you?
10:13:05 <farrioth> mroman: That's the same as math.floor(math.log(sendingValue, 2)), isn't it?
10:13:08 <quintopia> farrioth: it's even harder than that. you can't just check to see if a cell's distortion is zero to delete it. a cell with with positive distortion might require deleting.
10:14:08 <quintopia> somehow you have to keep track of whether it is being distorted by something connected to the root or not. which means tracing everyone that's distorting it and seeing if any lead to the root.
10:14:21 <quintopia> so i think storing the tree of connections ends up being much faster
10:14:46 <farrioth> Anyhow, I though you were using log_2(foo) to calculate the value of the distortion, not its distance, am I wrong?
10:15:29 <mroman> The distortion is sendingValue * (0.5^distance) I think
10:15:40 <mroman> It's just halfed with increasing distance
10:16:07 <farrioth> So we don't actually use a log?
10:16:15 <mroman> farrioth: No you don't have to use log at all
10:16:18 <quintopia> mroman: also floor(log(sending,2))=number of bits of sending -1 :D
10:16:28 <farrioth> mroman: Okay, that makes it easier.
10:17:10 <quintopia> mroman: except at zero where floor(log(sending,2)) = -infty, but #bits-1 = 0. which means #bits-1 is better
10:17:13 <mroman> You can just iterate to the left and right and divide by two
10:17:57 <mroman> That's what my sucky-python-demo did
10:18:59 <quintopia> mroman: do you think you're up to the challenge of writing a working 2D version? :D
10:19:38 <mroman> You can get irregularly shaped space I think
10:19:54 <mroman> should be posible with bounding rectangle magic
10:20:21 <mroman> but you'd still have to keep track of actuall *existing* cells when moving around with ><v^
10:20:24 <quintopia> whatever space is, it will always be a finite union of rectangles
10:20:41 <quintopia> union of overlapping squares really
10:21:33 <mroman> farrioth: Btw: IO and loops work on measurable values
10:21:38 <quintopia> mroman: it's not really a hard problem i think. just iterate quick over undistorted cells in your array (wrapping if necessary) until you hit another distorted one
10:21:53 <mroman> quintopia: But that would not be very efficient
10:22:16 <quintopia> mroman: in practice it would not be nearly so slow as the huge mess that space deletion would be
10:22:46 <farrioth> mroman: How do you output a float as a character?
10:22:58 <mroman> you'd just need to handle the occasional space expansion
10:23:01 <mroman> farrioth: There are no floats
10:23:08 <mroman> Everything is an integer 8bit
10:23:08 <quintopia> farrioth: why are you using floats
10:24:14 <mroman> Since a cell is 8bit 0-255 and distortion is also an integer
10:25:13 <farrioth> quintopia: Because I forgot we were using floor; ignore me.
10:25:28 <mroman> You can just do integer arithmetic
10:25:47 <mroman> Integer arithmetic automatically floors stuff ;)
10:26:18 <HackEgo> python: can't open file 'print (5 / 2)': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
10:26:27 <quintopia> mroman: i think if you used a linked-grid instead of an array as your data structure, you could do some real magic. so in addition to each cell having its address (which is used to figure out when you should stop filling space between and start modifying existing space), it has links to cells above and below, left and right, cyclic. you can insert space and remove space in constant time anywhere you need it.
10:27:03 <quintopia> then > and < and v and ^ would be constant time too
10:27:07 <fizzie> `run python -c 'print 5 / 2' #itym
10:27:32 <fizzie> Though in Python 3, IIRC, it doesn't. (You have to write // explicitly for the integer division.)
10:28:05 <fizzie> `run python -c 'from __future__ import division; print 5 / 2; print 5 // 2;'
10:28:46 <quintopia> mroman: imagine a relativistic spacefish, where rather than expanding the distortion distance, incrementing a cell actually *created space*
10:29:01 <quintopia> i feel like such a language needs to exist
10:30:50 <mroman> Spacefish does exactly that?
10:31:28 <mroman> What's the difference?
10:31:34 <quintopia> if i write to two cells five apart, those two cells will always be five cells apart
10:31:56 <quintopia> unlike in the universe, where distance galaxies get ever further away due to the expansion of space between us and them
10:31:57 <mroman> ah. I see what you mean
10:31:58 <farrioth> How's this for calculating distortion? http://susepaste.org/20821743
10:34:21 <farrioth> mroman: You pass it a single-item list containing the sending value which causes the distortion.
10:35:04 <mroman> does this distort in both directions?
10:35:15 <mroman> and it does not seem to be iterative
10:35:30 <mroman> if I pass in [255] it becomes [255,128], right?
10:35:54 <mroman> yeah, seems about right
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10:40:00 <farrioth> mroman: Cool. It doesn't do it in both directions; you just copy it and flip it over.
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10:44:44 <quintopia> farrioth: in practice, you might have to distort cells that already exist. so you can't just blithely append. check if there's already a cell first!!!!!
10:45:30 <farrioth> quintopia: I'm not appending the distortion values output by that function, I'm summing them with the relevant part of the distortion map.
10:46:03 <farrioth> currentDistortion = Distort([value])
10:46:04 <farrioth> distortionMap[pointer+i] += currentDistortion[i]
10:47:13 <farrioth> Except that only sums, it won't handle appending.
10:47:24 <quintopia> and in the same loop doing pointer-i gets the left side. got it.
10:47:50 <quintopia> appending would be a simple if statement
10:48:01 <quintopia> deleting a bit more complicated but i think you got it
10:48:42 <quintopia> when pointer goes negative you append and shift?
10:50:02 <farrioth> Yeah. I just need some methods for a distortionMap class to handle that transparently.
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10:53:52 <quintopia> farrioth: don't negative indices address from the end of the list?
10:54:53 <farrioth> quintopia: Yes, but we don't want that to happen.
10:55:11 <quintopia> farrioth: then i have a way to do it that will require less program logic
10:57:03 <quintopia> farrioth: what is the pythonic linked list that allows constant time insertions "in the middle"
10:57:37 <farrioth> quintopia: I have no idea, sorry.
10:57:48 <mroman> You can insert into regular lists
10:57:55 <mroman> it's probably not constant time but who cares :)
10:58:22 <quintopia> farrioth: okay cool. just start with a marker element (-1 would be out of band here) and have the represent "infinity". if you go to add distortion to this element while distorting to the right, insert an element before it and use that instead. if you go to add distortion to it while distorting to the left, insert a cell after it and use that instead.
11:00:21 <quintopia> and when you delete to the right, delete the same cell until it is the sentinel. when you delete to the left, compute a bit, and delete after the sentinel enough to bring the new "left" there, or go delete from the beginning.
11:00:22 <farrioth> That seems equivalent to prepending/appending if the element to be distorted is out of range to the left/right, which is what my plan was.
11:01:29 <quintopia> farrioth: it MAY be equivalent. but in my mind, it seemed like it would eliminate the need for bounds checking.
11:02:16 <farrioth> quintopia: -1 is basically a boundary marker, so checking for it is just like checking for bounds.
11:02:29 <farrioth> And for deletion, I was going to use slices.
11:02:55 <quintopia> but you're doing a bad job slicing out the part of your own memory where i said all that
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11:04:01 <farrioth> My memory is large, so the slice operation takes a while to return.
11:04:25 <shachaf> fungot: how large is your memory
11:04:25 <fungot> shachaf: the lectures are better than fnord. so maybe in february, i was
11:04:39 <fungot> shachaf: it's like programming in general). however, i think we're going to be
11:04:51 <shachaf> fungot: you're bad at complete sentences, you know that?
11:04:51 <fungot> shachaf: i can imagine it's not that the definitions come after the effect, there's no reason to define both a procedure foo* and a thin macro wrapper foo, afaict.
11:06:12 <fizzie> Can't really argue with that, can you.
11:06:39 <fungot> mroman: appears to be a
11:06:54 <fungot> mroman: python is similar enough to these languages." false false false
11:07:19 <quintopia> false is a language. and both it and python are turing-complete
11:07:26 <mroman> fungot: You should balance your "
11:07:37 <mroman> otherwise somebody is gonna make a graph of unbalanced quotes
11:07:40 <fizzie> fungot: This very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny the similarity of Python three times.
11:07:40 <fungot> fizzie: what i'm wondering. free software is teh winner! http://www.chick.com/ reading/ tracts/ 0084/ 0084_01.asp in
11:07:45 <shachaf> fizzie: Please balance fungot's "
11:07:46 <fungot> shachaf: that's really wrong. i can be myself... we don't need no stinkin' r. fnord has to be fnord/ fingerprints
11:08:09 <quintopia> you heard it from fungot. no quote balancing
11:08:10 <fungot> quintopia: the previous sentence, so that i can sense the hesitation to use promises in that way...
11:08:13 <fizzie> fungot: You tell him. I'm fed up with people always being "up my grill" about the balanced punctuation.
11:08:13 <fungot> fizzie: perhaps you've heard of that, though.) python it wouldn't be very hard
11:08:30 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, but you're not written in Python.
11:08:31 <fungot> fizzie: no i didn't. nice. the switch is because i want to
11:08:49 <quintopia> fungot wishes to be written in python
11:08:49 <fungot> quintopia: x86_64 has been historically chosen, and not even necessarily the same as
11:08:55 <quintopia> sorry fizzie. time to get writing.
11:09:21 <fizzie> I have the babbling (with balanced parentheses and quotes, no less) already done in Perl for prototyping.
11:09:44 <farrioth> I better start documenting more. I wrote this function less than an hour ago and now I need to figure out what it does.
11:10:22 <quintopia> fizzie: so now just plug in your perl->befunge code generation functions and off we go!
11:21:57 <farrioth> So, is + (foo = foo + 1) or (foo = foo + 1 + distortion)?
11:22:09 <farrioth> (Please remind me if I asked already.)
11:24:24 <mroman> + increases ONLY the sending value
11:24:57 <mroman> otherwise distortion would cause distortion and such
11:25:02 <mroman> wich would get really messy
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11:25:17 <mroman> esentially + tell's your antennas commander to increase it's intensity :)
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11:36:00 <farrioth> Well I need a break from coding after 130 lines.
11:46:25 <farrioth> I should be off to bed, but this has been enjoyable. Catch you all here another time.
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12:07:08 <mroman> Linear International Police
12:27:50 <mroman> Is it wrong of me to assume that farrioth is not as experienced as I thought :)
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12:30:02 <int-e> shachaf: Re: @faq. I can. I still think it's funny but I guess what worked well when #haskell had 300 people (and many who had seen lambdabot's conception) doesn't really scale to 1200.
12:32:37 <fizzie> Huh. I connected to the shared Windows Terminal Server, and it gave me the Windows Server "Shutdown Event Tracker" "Why did the computer shut down unexpectedly?" dialog.
12:33:55 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
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12:35:37 <int-e> Did Gregor say where all the space had gone?
12:41:13 <HackEgo> 14776./.hg/store/data/bin \ 2100./.hg/store/data/lib \ 52380./.hg/store/data/paste \ 12152./.hg/store/data/share/_word_data \ 20./.hg/store/data/share/lua/5.2/luarocks/build \ 28./.hg/store/data/share/lua/5.2/luarocks/fetch \ 8./.hg/store/data/share/lua/5.2/luarocks/fs/unix \ 8./.hg/store/data/share/lua/5.2/luarocks/fs/win32 \ 36./.hg/stor
12:42:07 <Gregor> It's not like it's just HackEgo's space.
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13:08:26 <boily> good unpentadactyl morning!
13:08:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:09:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:09:55 <int-e> `run du / | sort -rn
13:10:26 <HackEgo> du: cannot read directory `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ du: cannot read dir
13:10:38 <int-e> `run du / 2>/dev/null | sort -rn
13:11:01 <HackEgo> 4251168/ \ 1629696/var/irclogs \ 1629696/var \ 1059104/usr \ 1013416/opt \ 919000/opt/ghc \ 785888/opt/ghc/lib \ 784204/opt/ghc/lib/ghc-7.6.1 \ 688872/var/irclogs/_esoteric \ 618232/var/irclogs/raw \ 608152/usr/lib \ 518600/hackenv \ 336564/usr/share \ 318236/opt/ghc/lib/ghc-7.6.1/ghc-7.6.1 \ 292452/hackenv/.hg \ 292088/hackenv/.hg/
13:17:09 <boily> `run ls /var/irclogs
13:17:10 <HackEgo> _ai \ _corewars \ _esoteric \ _esoteric-chess-variants \ _esoteric-minecraft \ _esoteric_shadow \ _\FRIends*foR*evEr\ \ _FRIends*foR*evEr \ _glogbot \ index.php \ log \ log.css \ log.js \ _plof \ raw \ _scapegoat \ stalker.php \ _weaaM
13:17:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:17:18 <boily> `run ls /var/irclogs/_esoteric
13:17:20 <HackEgo> 2003-01-18-raw.txt \ 2003-01-18.txt \ 2003-01-19-raw.txt \ 2003-01-19.txt \ 2003-01-20-raw.txt \ 2003-01-20.txt \ 2003-01-21-raw.txt \ 2003-01-21.txt \ 2003-01-22-raw.txt \ 2003-01-22.txt \ 2003-01-23-raw.txt \ 2003-01-23.txt \ 2003-01-24-raw.txt \ 2003-01-24.txt \ 2003-01-25-raw.txt \ 2003-01-25.txt \ 2003-01-26-raw.txt \ 2003-01-26.txt \ 2003-01-
13:18:19 <int-e> `run head -1 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2003-01-18-raw.txt
13:18:21 <HackEgo> < 1042851425 ? :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric
13:18:39 <int-e> `run head -1 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2003-01-18.txt
13:18:41 <HackEgo> 00:57:05: -!- clog has joined #esoteric.
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13:20:21 <int-e> `run cd /opt/ghc/lib/ghc-7.6.1; echo */
13:20:22 <HackEgo> array-0.4.0.1/ base-4.6.0.0/ binary-0.5.1.1/ bin-package-db-0.0.0.0/ bytestring-0.10.0.0/ Cabal-1.16.0/ containers-0.5.0.0/ deepseq-1.3.0.1/ directory-1.2.0.0/ filepath-1.3.0.1/ ghc-7.6.1/ ghc-prim-0.3.0.0/ haskell2010-1.1.1.0/ haskell98-2.0.0.2/ hoopl-3.9.0.0/ hpc-0.6.0.0/ html/ include/ integer-gmp-0.5.0.0/ latex/ old-locale-1.0.0.5/ old-time-1.1
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13:23:29 <impomatic> Weird! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjJORYJWR6w
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13:31:19 <boily> bon impomatin, also.
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14:08:16 <impomatic> Is anyone here from Northfield, Vermont?
14:08:54 <boily> impomatic: let me check the The File...
14:09:58 -!- ^v has joined.
14:10:27 <boily> impomatic: nobody in Vermont. either LinearInterpol or myself is the nearest.
14:10:41 <impomatic> Thanks boily. I just need someone to drop by someone's house for me :-)
14:12:00 <impomatic> I've been trying to track down Philip K Hooper who wrote a few programming articles about 35 years ago!
14:12:15 <boily> impomatic: I'm about 240 km away by car, and LinearInterpol is 265 mi.
14:12:55 <impomatic> Hmmm... maybe I'll just send a letter. Just in case he still lives in the same house.
14:13:14 <boily> ~duck philip k hooper
14:13:57 <impomatic> He wrote the last quote on this page http://corewar.co.uk/earlycw.htm
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14:20:59 * impomatic googles for Dave Cutler's email address!
14:21:25 <impomatic> (I'm harassing random people today about Core War history!)
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17:47:12 <mrhmouse> In Haskell, you can use . to compose functions like "f . g == \x f (g x)"; is there any built-in operator ? such that "f ? g == \x g (f x)"?
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17:53:57 <mrhmouse> coppro: I know that I could write it myself; I was wondering if there was a built-in operator already :) Thanks!
17:56:30 <coppro> there's probably some typeclass function that simplifies down to it
17:56:53 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
17:57:00 <coppro> I can't think straight right now
17:57:13 <lambdabot> `>>' (imported from Control.Monad.Writer),
17:58:01 <b_jonas> @hoogle (b->c)->(a->b)->a->c
17:58:02 <lambdabot> Prelude (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
17:58:03 <lambdabot> Data.Function (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
17:58:03 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel.Strategies (.|) :: (b -> c) -> Strategy b -> (a -> b) -> (a -> c)
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17:58:15 <b_jonas> @hoogle (a->b)->(b->c)->a->c
17:58:16 <lambdabot> Prelude (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
17:58:16 <lambdabot> Data.Function (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
17:58:16 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel.Strategies (-|) :: (a -> b) -> Strategy b -> (b -> c) -> (a -> c)
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17:59:08 <b_jonas> so just define one yourself if you need one
17:59:41 <b_jonas> but if you want to be sure, ask on #haskell
18:01:44 <b_jonas> those listings can't be complete
18:02:03 <b_jonas> shouldn't hoogle have found fmap as a result?
18:02:18 <b_jonas> I thought it was magical enough
18:02:28 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
18:03:07 <b_jonas> coppro: unify the types yourself or ask #haskell
18:03:34 <coppro> oh wait, I misread you
18:03:46 <coppro> yeah, I'm surprised it didn't catch fmap there
18:04:28 <b_jonas> @hoogle (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
18:04:29 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable fmapDefault :: Traversable t => (a -> b) -> t a -> t b
18:04:30 <lambdabot> Prelude fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
18:04:30 <lambdabot> Data.Functor fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
18:04:43 <b_jonas> I think it's limited to three matches here
18:05:25 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: I checked Hoogle for (a -> b) -> (c -> a) -> (c -> b), but didn't see anything at a quick glance
18:06:03 <b_jonas> check it for (a -> b) -> f a -> f b tpp
18:06:42 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: it will show (<**>) which is (flip (<*>)) I think
18:06:57 <b_jonas> and might or might not be exactly what you asked for
18:08:23 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: I was just curious if there was a way to compose functions by listing them from left to right in the order of application, preferably using some infix operator
18:08:44 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: yes, and doesn't <**> do that?
18:09:04 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: no clue, I'm only just starting to learn Haskell :) I'll check its documentation, though
18:09:24 <b_jonas> you might get more definite answers on #haskell, I'm affraid to tell anything here
18:14:50 <lambdabot> Category cat => cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c
18:15:15 <int-e> > ((+1) <<< (*2)) 0
18:15:22 <int-e> > ((+1) >>> (*2)) 0
18:19:35 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0
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18:26:23 <FreeFull> (<$>) is the same as (.) when used on functions
18:26:39 <FreeFull> (<<<) is also the same as (.) on functions
18:27:45 <boily> every operator are born the same, but some are more generic.
18:30:42 <int-e> mrhmouse wanted (>>>)
18:36:12 <Slereah> i deduced that I hate RISC
18:37:42 <Slereah> x86 I'm so sorry for those mean things I said
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18:42:26 <Slereah> Reading instructions *after* a jump?
18:43:40 <int-e> it helps unclogging your pipelines
18:44:00 <Slereah> The prof was all "Well programming straight in assembly isn't much of a problem in those days of compilers so who cares!"
18:44:08 <Slereah> But I want to program in assembly :(
18:44:18 <int-e> so put nops after your jumps
18:44:46 <int-e> (btw it's not even true that every risc architecture does this)
18:46:07 <Slereah> Also he scared me for a while when he talked about the problems with register use over the pipeline
18:46:26 <Slereah> Thank goodness it doesn't matter in the end
18:46:44 <mroman> Slereah: What's the relationship of assembler<->compiler
18:46:54 <mroman> IT's easy to program in assembler because of compilers?
18:46:58 <int-e> the things they do for implementing x86 efficiently is true madness.
18:47:16 <Slereah> int-e : Sure, but that's electronics people
18:47:21 <Slereah> I don't care what they do!
18:47:45 <mroman> what's wrong with linear prefetching?
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18:48:25 <Slereah_> [19:47:14] <Slereah> int-e : Sure, but that's electronics people
18:48:26 <Slereah_> [19:47:19] <Slereah> I don't care what they do!
18:48:26 <Slereah_> [19:47:39] <Slereah> mroman : That having harder to program assembly doesn't matter since few people code straight in assembly directly
18:48:27 <mroman> You should align your jumps/conditions in a way, so that the jump is not taken most of the time
18:48:51 <mroman> because jumps taken are bad
18:49:01 <mroman> they flush the pipeline
18:49:08 <mroman> the cpu already prefetched stuff after the jump
18:49:28 <mroman> unless your cpu employs some kind of dynamic branch prediction
18:49:55 <mroman> 19:47 < mroman> what's wrong with linear prefetching?
18:50:25 <mroman> also that's why RISC have conditional execution flags on almost every instructions
18:50:29 <mroman> well, some RISCs at least do
18:51:20 <mroman> What register use over pipeline?
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18:51:39 <mroman> CPUs tend to reorder instructions to optimize memory bus access
18:51:48 <mroman> and to prevent lots of pipeline stalls
18:51:59 <mroman> due to the writeback phase of the pipeline for example
18:53:08 <mroman> x86 CPUs have a pipeline too btw
18:54:15 <mroman> You've managed to confuse me
18:54:36 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peace_pipe.jpg
18:55:27 <boily> that thing. it is strangely Canadian.
18:56:05 <mroman> Knowing that some CISC CPUs internally translate CISC instructions to more RISCish instructions
18:56:20 <Taneb> I had a dream that I has a secret esoteric lair
18:56:51 <Slereah_> I don't have to navigate the CPU
18:56:57 <Slereah_> I'm not in miss Frizzle's class, I'm not going to take a magic school bus ride on a CPU
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18:59:22 * int-e loved the bus lines in the intercal manual
18:59:32 <int-e> (to new york. (and philadelphia))
19:01:25 * mroman wonders why stack machines are not so popular
19:02:04 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, a lot of computers, a pointless catwalk
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19:02:09 <mroman> But I assume they suck in some way
19:02:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, idk, maybe it helped you avoid walking on the computers
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19:02:39 <LinearInterpol> mroman: It takes more to actually perform more common operations.
19:03:13 <Taneb> It was underneath a museum exhibit on Boolfuck (!?)
19:03:57 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:04:09 <Taneb> There were displays and statues and everything
19:04:09 <boily> Slereah_: Fear, Uncertainty and Gdoubt?
19:04:34 <LinearInterpol> the dark art of bit manipulation is one of the most powerful techniques in this world.
19:04:42 <Slereah_> g is for god my internet is so terrible
19:05:36 <fungot> mroman: http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ fnord help? i might like syntactic closures, etc.) and not fnord fault.
19:05:51 * boily coppoles Slereah_'s connection
19:05:53 <mroman> fungot: Are you censoring hyperlinks?
19:05:53 <fungot> mroman: yow!! now i'm playing with it. :p
19:06:16 <mroman> LinearInterpol: Yeah. But there's an unbalanced bracket
19:06:17 <boily> fungot is citing zippy the pinhead. YOW!!
19:06:17 <fungot> boily: it's nice if i'm deeply down in some sort of identifier renaming thing, too, but quite.
19:06:42 <mrhmouse> fizzie: fungot uses 4-grams, right?
19:06:43 <fungot> mrhmouse: omniweb uses fnord/ down etc... and not ( 3 2)? how would you make an error about no clear
19:07:31 <mroman> fungot: Bake cookies him you must
19:07:32 <fungot> mroman: ah, used egrep matches every line beginning with a single one) and the p should depend on neither addresses of functions nor their names
19:07:33 <boily> LinearInterpol: you are not seeing it. obey. fnord.
19:20:19 * boily mapoles mrhmouse with a +3 Mapole of Holy Wrath {Dex+3, rN++}
19:20:37 <int-e> LinearInterpol: glazed eyes, hmm. a snack?
19:22:09 <boily> LinearInterpol: dex is important.
19:23:07 <boily> @dice 1000000000d100000000000
19:23:10 <int-e> Taneb: it was above average, actually.
19:23:29 <int-e> boily: it uses some normal distribution when the numbers get too high
19:24:17 <Taneb> int-e, average roll :(
19:25:01 <boily> int-e: nooooooooooooooo! my believes are shattered!
19:25:42 <int-e> @dice 1000000000d100000000000
19:25:44 <int-e> @dice 1000000000d100000000000
19:29:27 <lambdabot> unexpected '^': expecting operator or end of input
19:29:31 <lambdabot> unexpected '*': expecting operator
19:30:00 <boily> oh well. next step would have been exponential rolls, complex rolls, hyperreal roles...
19:31:51 <int-e> surreal rdice, hmm.
19:32:56 <boily> normally distributed glazed eyes served over bouchées of surreal bread rolls.
19:34:12 <int-e> I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number obviously
19:37:37 <int-e> (But apparently boily is obsessed with food. ... oh dinner time!)
19:37:48 <boily> ω². ow. my brain suffers.
19:38:11 <boily> int-e: as previously stated, I do not have a food obsession. I am also very sane.
19:38:33 <boily> FreeFull: it's infinity squared, which obviously is infinitely more than the infinite.
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19:38:51 <FreeFull> Depends on which omega you're talking
19:38:59 <FreeFull> You might be doing circular motion
19:39:05 <int-e> FreeFull: just an ordinary ... ordinal number.
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19:39:30 <int-e> FreeFull: who wants to run in circles when you can go past infinity instead?
19:39:40 <mroman> Does Spacefish have Infinite Memory according to the definition of infinite memory you science guys have?
19:40:03 <boily> FreeFull: I went through EE classes, with nice ωs. mathematicians are spreading lies and propaganda, I say!
19:40:25 <mroman> FreeFull: You can always ask for a finite memory amount more
19:40:32 <mroman> while(1) { malloc(100000); }
19:40:43 <mroman> You can always malloc more memory
19:40:53 <mroman> but only a finite amount with each malloc of course
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19:41:59 <LinearInterpol> oh hey! a cellular automata based upon peturbation! who made this?
19:42:22 <mroman> FreeFull: The spec says, that you can always ask for more memory
19:42:45 <int-e> mroman: so what happens if I do > as the first step in a program?
19:42:49 <mroman> at any given point you'd still only have a finite amount of memory available
19:43:13 <mroman> int-e: You'd move to the initial cell
19:44:42 <int-e> mroman: does memory ever shrink?
19:45:59 <mroman> But you can just place 255 values in some cells to allocate more space
19:46:14 <mroman> and then never touch those alloca values
19:46:19 <mroman> so space wouldn't shrink back
19:46:47 <int-e> mroman: also, shouldn't 8 be surrounded by 3 squres, with values 8,4,2 and 1?
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19:49:07 <mroman> The question is merely if it counts as infinite memory of you can always ask for a finite amount of memory more
19:49:32 <mroman> because to actually have infinite memory, the program itself could never stop
19:49:45 <mroman> because if it stopped it only had allocated a finite amount of memory
19:50:03 <FreeFull> You can't fill an infinite amount of memory with a program that stops anyway
19:50:27 <mroman> However, you can't run out of memory
19:50:36 <int-e> technically, I would not talk of infinite memory but of "unbounded memory".
19:50:37 <mroman> if you can always allocate more of it
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19:50:57 <mroman> so for all that matters it should be infinite as far as my opininon goes
19:51:17 <int-e> but that's really mincing words. there is no practical difference between the two.
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19:53:31 <boily> `relcome mrclarinet
19:53:33 <HackEgo> mrclarinet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:55:02 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:10:20 -!- trout has changed nick to variable.
20:33:33 <metasepia> Your divination: "Corrupting" to "Gnawing Bite"
20:34:04 <boily> as usual, it is completely useless re my XML problems.
20:34:19 <metasepia> Your divination: "Corrupting" to "Arguing"
20:40:08 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:51:33 <metasepia> Your divination: "Grouping" to "Centre Confirming"
20:53:40 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:54:25 <metasepia> Your divination: "Shake" to "Great Possessing"
20:54:48 * mrhmouse is possessed by the Great Shaking
20:55:16 <metasepia> Your divination: "Prospering" to "Prospering"
20:55:48 * boily steals LinearInterpol's divination away
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21:01:17 <metasepia> <pre><code>ASPH (aspartate beta-hydroxylase)</code></pre> Protein-coding gene on human chromosome 8q12.1, also known as BAH, CASQ2BP1, HAAH, JCTN, humbug, junctate, junctin.
21:01:47 <metasepia> humbug definition: something designed to deceive and mislead.
21:01:53 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf.
21:02:00 -!- shachaf has quit (Changing host).
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21:02:17 <mrhmouse> boily: perhaps an Easter-egg, since > "also known as BAH"?
21:02:45 <boily> mrhmouse: I realised. I was staying silent in shameful acceptance.
21:02:47 <shachaf> int-e: It is abused far beyond the funny limit.
21:06:50 * boily shakes metasepia a bit
21:07:06 <mrhmouse> boily: you get better results when using DDG's API with an API key
21:07:06 <metasepia> avian definition: of, relating to, or derived from birds.
21:07:33 <boily> mrhmouse: the keyful version will be integrated in the Next Version.
21:09:51 <metasepia> In theoretical computer science and mathematical logic a string rewriting system, historically called a semi-Thue system, is a rewriting system over strings from a alphabet.
21:10:06 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:10:40 * boily puts his hands on his ears ♪ LA LA LA WHEN IT'LL BE READY LA LA LA THE NEXT VERSION IS NOT VAPOROUS AT ALL LAL ALL LALALALALALA ♪
21:14:59 <mrhmouse> boily: I would contribute, but your GitHub repo seems a bit out of date :P
21:16:18 <Taneb> elliott, do you happen to know if the X84 has free wifi?
21:16:19 <mrhmouse> boily: also is your profile image a persimmon? those are delicious.
21:17:32 <Taneb> Is that a "No, I don't", or a "No, it doesn't"?
21:18:55 <boily> mrhmouse: the out of dateness was pointed out by Roujo in an issue. I am conscious of the lack of content in the repo >_>'...
21:18:57 <shachaf> (Unless I'm wrong. I guess I could be wrong.)
21:19:15 <boily> mrhmouse: it indeed is a persimmon. persimmons are good. they are also orange, which is more good.
21:19:58 <mrhmouse> boily: most of them are. when I was growing up, we had several persimmon trees of the variety in your picture. later on, we starting growing another variety that was firmer and more red.
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21:25:46 <fizzie> mrhmouse: It uses variable-length grams.
21:26:11 <fizzie> fungot: Could you bother counting up some statistics on your models, please?
21:26:12 <fungot> fizzie: but then hand it 1 time for me to finish in time, but i
21:26:40 <mrhmouse> fizzie: does any literature exist beyond the source code that describes how it works?
21:26:47 <fizzie> fungot: I.. is that a yes or a no? I mean, I don't want much, just some n-gram length histograms.
21:26:48 <fungot> fizzie: i think it's funnier that way, sorbet. we're loading her down with terrible associations tonight.
21:27:25 <mrhmouse> fizzie: particularly, I'm interested in how fungot chooses a starting fragment based on input
21:27:25 <fungot> mrhmouse: are there any fnord languages? :) ( aren't i lazy :p)
21:27:38 <mrhmouse> fungot: you are lazy. try Googling it.
21:27:38 <fungot> mrhmouse: you could do aliased pointers.)
21:27:46 <boily> quintopia: metasepia. the Truth is that it is still the old cuttlefish code in disguise. the True Metasepia doesn't exist yet.
21:28:05 <fizzie> mrhmouse: There's a paper on the model construction part, but that's not really part of fungot. As for choosing starting context based on input, that's easy: it doesn't.
21:28:05 <fungot> fizzie: define ' suckier.') the interesting question is:
21:28:18 <fizzie> fungot: You don't have to be so harsh.
21:28:18 <fungot> fizzie: i only see you once planning a srfi on object, operation friends would be welcomed?)
21:28:42 <mrhmouse> fizzie: darn :( I was looking for inspiration for the next ruddy (which I have named "roskat")
21:29:12 <fizzie> mrhmouse: That's the Finnish word for trash/garbage, if you didn't know.
21:29:29 <mrhmouse> fizzie: classic ruddy checked for similar messages in history, then chose the "response" from that
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21:29:46 <mrhmouse> fizzie: that's why I chose it. I chose "ruddy" because it has similar meaning.
21:29:48 <boily> ThellotOthelloPellorsellon.
21:29:57 <nortti> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/?single_page=true
21:30:25 <fizzie> Anyhoo, all fungot's replies start with the context "START". There's not even any reasonable (built-in) way currently for it to go back from strings into the token indices the model uses, since I don't think the token lists are necessarily sorted.
21:30:25 <fungot> fizzie: i think it hasn't been srfi'd mostly as-is. is it documented somewhere?
21:31:09 <boily> fungot: probably, but you are written in Unhighlightable Befunge.
21:31:10 <fungot> boily: though marker fnord probably isn't clear unless you know where the difficulty comes in.
21:31:41 <mrhmouse> hm. I'll just come up with something on my own, I suppose. The best I've gotten out of Roskat so far was "hello there, roskat!" --> "I've received an uncommon phrase; what's the context? fnord"
21:31:41 <quintopia> boily: untrue! befunge is totes highlightable with the right UI
21:33:33 <fizzie> mrhmouse: There's one sort of trivial thing that I think I've seen done in a chatbot, which is to select a single "keyword" from the input (based on TF-IDF weights on words or whatnot), do a search over some database like WordNet for related terms (both synonyms and antonyms), pick a random one, and then generate from n-grams both forwards and backwards so that the keyphrase is in an ...
21:33:39 <fizzie> ... unpredictable spot of the response.
21:34:00 <fizzie> (Also add hyponyms and hypernyms and whatevernyms to that list.)
21:34:20 <metasepia> In linguistics, a hyponym is a word or phrase whose semantic field is included within that of another word, its hypernym (sometimes spelled hyperonym outside of the natural language processing community).
21:34:47 <mrhmouse> fizzie: that's a good idea :) currently roskat picks a word from the input (preferring uncommon words, based on message history) and starts with a random trigram whose predecessor includes that word
21:36:12 <mrhmouse> it helps, but it's far from acceptable as a form of "chatter". I intend to have the next version examine preceding messages & their sources for prompt/response patterns
21:36:13 <fizzie> That's really kind of similar, except without the WordNet step.
21:38:39 <mrhmouse> I need to diagram the whole thing first to see what sort of data I'll have to store regarding messages - then I can decide on other details
21:39:20 <fizzie> There's also quite a lot of work for natural language parsing; when you've got parse trees (or other such things), you can do things in terms of them. But those are kind of brittle, and might have trouble with informal chat-text. (Also it's an easy way to end up in a very Elizaey responses.)
21:39:37 <mrhmouse> for this bot, I don't particularly care about the semantic value of the messages
21:40:08 <mrhmouse> but I did have an idea to have another bot which understood e.g. Gellish English and could create relationships between terms
21:40:17 <metasepia> Gellish is a formal language that is natural language independent, although its concepts have 'names' and definitions in various natural languages.
21:40:24 <metasepia> Gellish Formal English is the English variant of Gellish and is a formal language, which means that it is a structured and formalized subset of natural English that is computer interpretable.
21:41:01 <fizzie> Back on the statistical side of the fence, you can probably also boost the probability of "relevant" responses with some kind of a scheme based on clustering of "topic" words.
21:41:38 <mrhmouse> fizzie: uncommon words that appear in the chatter at around the same times?
21:42:14 <boily> freebie uncommon word → paramycète.
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21:43:36 <fizzie> Something like that, yes. Or just models trained on text with a specific topic, though if your source materials are irclogs, that's harder. (Unless you want to pay some Amazon Mechanical Turk people to label a gigabyte of logs with "current topic" annotations.)
21:44:06 <fizzie> (I'm sure they'd do a splendid job on annotating #esoteric logs.)
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21:45:47 <mrhmouse> IRC chatter is hard enough to parse :) I think the biggest amount of parsing I'll do will be name extraction and directed responses/prompts (e.g. "mrhmouse: hello" is a directed prompt)
21:46:18 <boily> what about the chimæric helloes?
21:46:39 <mrhmouse> boily: I can't parse those, so they'll remain in the chatter history as uncommon words
21:47:27 <fizzie> fungot: You can parse those sillyhelloes, right?
21:47:28 <fungot> fizzie: later tell drewr may be slime wants you to do
21:47:58 <mrhmouse> the best thing about those, though, is that they're usually clumped together. so prompting the bot with, say, "belloily", might result in "mrhmellouse"
21:48:33 <fungot> mrhmouse: it's a classic, i mostly wanted to take out fixnums and to put it later on?' what relevance does it have cons?
21:49:25 <boily> `run echo 'Sir Fungellot cannot be stopped by that sword alone!' >wisdom/fungot
21:50:09 <fungot> LinearInterpol: from reading the wikipedia entry for er, parachuting.)" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 4408
21:50:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
21:50:39 <fizzie> Regarding the related-word thing, you can also do LSI instead of a WordNet-style a-priori-knowledge database.
21:50:50 <fungot> mrhmouse: when you get to function calls,
21:50:51 <HackEgo> Sir Fungellot cannot be stopped by that sword alone!
21:51:08 <mrhmouse> LinearInterpol: you have to provide a phrase
21:51:10 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
21:51:33 <mrhmouse> fizzie: LSI? I'm not familiar with the acronym..
21:51:47 <metasepia> lsi definition: large-scale integrated circuit; large-scale integration.
21:51:56 <fizzie> mrhmouse: Latent Semantic Indexing, it's p. fancy.
21:52:28 <mrhmouse> fizzie: do you mean for the Gellish English bot? I intend for it to be fully spoon-fed :)
21:52:51 <fizzie> No, just for something statistical based on irclogs.
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21:53:17 <mrhmouse> e.g. if it knows what a cat is (but not a dog), and it sees the word "dog" in a noun position, it would prompt the user to describe a dog
21:53:46 <mrhmouse> after that point, it now has some knowledge of what a dog is (based on the description and all recognized words in the description)
21:55:21 <mrhmouse> you might describe it as "an animal which chases cats". now it knows that a dog is an animal, and has the property that it chases cats (also an animal)
21:57:04 <fizzie> (How's that thing doing, anyway?)
21:58:11 <metasepia> It is not based on numerical methods such as statistical probabilities, nor is it based on neural networks or fuzzy logic.
21:58:17 <fizzie> "Stable release .. 17 months ago" well
21:58:46 <fizzie> metasepia: That's a good summary as far as it goes, but you could consider also saying something about what it *is* based on.
21:59:47 <fizzie> "Cyc-based solutions have helped government agencies and Global 100 commercial enterprises leverage their knowledge and expertise over a wide range of business verticals and across the full operational spectrum."
22:00:01 <fizzie> Leverage over a wide range of business verticals.
22:00:07 <fizzie> Across the full operational spectrum.
22:00:15 <fizzie> I see they've managed to leverage some marketing people, at least.
22:00:52 <LinearInterpol> a friend of mine from MIT published a book like this. in fact...
22:00:57 <LinearInterpol> http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/mike-wolf/bitkit/paperback/product-233305.html
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23:26:13 <ion> XCOM has a slight Z-order problem for a fraction of a second whenever switching soldiers. http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/452907883059778581/E033A703267A6B165B926905057AFF60C2896574/
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23:43:00 * quintopia moves the smorgases from the bord to the stomach
23:45:10 <ion> This is the perfect way to release a Linux distro and get maximum community participation. http://repo.steamstatic.com/download/
23:45:41 <quintopia> LinearInterpol: do you like swedish food
23:46:28 <quintopia> mmm whipped marshmallow cream with a hard chocolate shell
23:48:47 <quintopia> what you don't have an ikea near you
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23:51:55 <oerjan> it's also s. lucia day
23:53:23 <oerjan> a most peculiar scandinavian holiday based on taking an italian song about a harbor named s. lucia and pretending it's about the actual saint
23:53:43 <oerjan> and then singing that in processions of children.
23:53:52 <quintopia> st. lucia is a p cool island from what i've heard
23:57:47 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Lucia also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgo_Santa_Lucia i think i'm going to add a [citation needed] to the latter.
00:00:21 -!- ^v has joined.
00:00:34 <oerjan> or maybe i should ask an actual swede.
00:00:50 <oerjan> olsner: why you so idle
00:01:15 <Taneb> oerjan, why did I read "ask" as "smoke"?
00:01:39 <oerjan> Taneb: maybe you like smoking turnips, i dunno
00:01:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: why so _hideously_ idle
00:02:01 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, only for me
00:02:06 <quintopia> ThatOtherPerson: by driving faster
00:02:16 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:02:55 <oerjan> i think i may be out of actual swedes. but in case not, is "Today, among other things, that song is considered somewhat the unofficial hymn of Sweden" about luciasången as preposterous as it sounds?
00:03:19 <oerjan> i could imagine it being true with s/the/an/
00:04:12 <oerjan> but then the aussies have "waltzing mathilda", so what do i know
00:05:48 * oerjan just edited it instead.
00:06:46 <quintopia> what's wrong with waltzing matilda?
00:07:36 <oerjan> it's just not in the usual style for a national anthem hth
00:10:16 <oerjan> https://www.google.no/search?q=luciat%C3%A5g&biw=1176&bih=613&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=q6GrUuy7OYS47QaX2oAw&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ hth
00:15:53 <douglass_> what's the clever trick for getting orecchiete not to stack?
00:16:25 <douglass_> I thought stirring a lot while they cooked would do it but it doesn't. Do I need to separate the noodles individually by hand before adding to water?
00:18:11 <Fiora> http://food52.com/hotline/16710-keep-orecchiette-from-sticking-together does this help?
00:20:01 <Bike> "Today's bug: If a prisoner happens to be on the toilet when his time in jail finishes, he will remain trapped on the toilet forever" game bug logs are great
00:21:36 <douglass_> No, I added them to water that was boiling hard, and I stirred frequently. The problem is that they are already stacked in the bag and the hot water makes them stick that way faster than stirring can break them up.
00:21:54 <douglass_> I think the solution is "buy shell noodles instead because they're just better."
00:25:06 <Fiora> shells are wonderful
00:25:20 <Fiora> I think shells and rigatoni are my favorite
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00:29:48 <douglass_> Shells cost more per pound at Safeway, though, and TJ's never seems to have them
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00:35:06 <oerjan> douglass_: wouldn't it be a good idea to unstack them _before_ dropping them in the water, then.
00:35:34 <oerjan> unless they're frozen or something.
00:35:54 <oerjan> oh you mentioned that option.
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00:37:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: term unknown, please rephrase
00:37:59 <Fiora> trader joe's has a lot of frozen pasta dishes that are kinda nice
00:38:14 <oerjan> possibly nobody, it was just the main reason i could think of for why you couldn't separate them before boiling
00:42:14 <douglass_> I consider the option of unstacking them individually by hand, rather than stirring them all at once, to take an unreasonable amount of time.
00:44:25 <oerjan> i'm imagining shaking them into a dry bowl and separating them by "stirring" there. might even work.
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00:45:20 <Fiora> does it help if you pour them in, like, before the water is boiling?
00:46:11 <oerjan> also, does the package have any tips.
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00:48:01 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> Hey, can someone help me understand Lazy K? <-- did you get any answer?
00:48:29 <lambdabot> ShelSilverstein says: Lazy Lazy Lazy Lazy Lazy Lazy Jane. She wants a drink of water so she waits and waits and waits and waits and waits for it to rain.
00:48:39 <HackEgo> 2013-12-14 00:02:07: <ThatOtherPerson> Ah, right
00:49:38 <oerjan> ok that's less than an hour ago
00:49:46 -!- impomatic has left.
00:49:48 <HackEgo> Sat Dec 14 00:49:47 UTC 2013
00:50:07 <oerjan> shachaf: it does the sane UTC thing
00:50:43 <shachaf> oerjan: p. sure mountain view time is the only sane time
00:51:19 <ThatOtherPerson> The thing that bugs me about the wiki page is it only seems to describe how it is different from Unlambda
00:51:23 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: right, real fast nora's hair salon III: shear disaster download is isomorphic to lazy k
00:51:40 <douglass_> oerjan: I will try that with the remaining package. There are no tips on the label.
00:52:19 <ThatOtherPerson> Yeah, I've been looking into Nora, and I thought perhaps it would be easier to learn by learning about Lazy K
00:52:26 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: well lazy k is ski calculus, which is like a subset of unlambda, except that it's also lazy in evaluation order.
00:52:54 <oerjan> in a sense, the lazy version is the more mathematically pure one.
00:53:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i think gould just thought of the language itself as something very obvious and so he only bothers describing the syntax and showing off lazier
00:54:19 <oerjan> the same abstraction elimination process for converting lambda calculus works for both. of course with lazy k you then get _lazy_ lambda calculus.
00:54:57 <oerjan> it _is_ obvious i think.
00:55:07 <oerjan> if you know haskell and lambda calculus :P
00:56:27 <oerjan> of course as someone who has written unlambda, i'm biased.
00:56:40 <ThatOtherPerson> I understand the general principles, but I don't really know how to program in it yet
00:56:56 <oerjan> do you know how to program unlambda
00:58:00 <oerjan> what you need is a good understanding of how to do things in lambda calculus, and then how to abstraction eliminate.
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00:58:34 <ThatOtherPerson> oerjan: hm, I have a fairly... basic idea of how to do things in Haskell
00:58:40 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: you might look at madore's unlambda page, it has many tips for how to program in that, which should at least approximately apply to lazy k.
00:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i learnt the lambda calculus perfectly well from the wp article
00:59:06 <Bike> presumably the point is more about evaluation order than types
01:00:01 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: also one thing about laziness is that it's the order of evaluation that is guaranteed to work if _any_ does, so if you write a program that works _strictly_, it will automatically work lazily. although possibly with a space leak :P
01:05:58 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: you're definitely going to need to understand how to use higher order functions.
01:07:36 <oerjan> and then you want to understand how to make data structures with them, e.g. simulating haskell's ADTs
01:08:19 <oerjan> and the matter of flow control, in particular how to do recursion with the self-application trick.
01:08:56 <Bike> adts you could just do as a tagged union where the union element is a tuple right
01:09:31 <oerjan> Bike: that's not the simplest way
01:09:40 <Bike> what's the simplest way.
01:09:54 <oerjan> let's say to implement data Bool = False | True
01:10:12 <Bike> oh, you do that
01:10:41 <oerjan> you implement an element of Bool as a function with _two_ arguments, one to use if it's False, one to use if it's True.
01:10:48 <Bike> so instead of a tag you just have it only called by case functions
01:11:13 <Bike> and have it pass the data if it exists to that function?
01:11:23 <Bike> right makes sense
01:11:32 <Bike> silly me, thinking of data as data
01:12:10 <Bike> the future is the past
01:12:26 <oerjan> False = \x y -> y, True = \x y -> x, and then if b then x else y becomes just b x y
01:12:49 <oerjan> (i sort of switched the order of False and True there to make the if the right order)
01:13:24 <oerjan> now if you instead have data Either a b = Left a | Right b
01:13:57 <oerjan> then Left x = \l r -> l x and Right y = \l r -> r y
01:14:35 <oerjan> and you add more arguments for constructors that have more arguments.
01:15:04 <oerjan> a tuple has just one constructor, so (x,y,z) = \f -> f x y z
01:15:28 <oerjan> and that's basically all you need to implement ADTs as functions.
01:19:12 <oerjan> to understand lazy K's IO format, you need (x,y) pairs + one more thing called church numerals.
01:20:25 <oerjan> a church numeral is a natural number encoded as a function applying another function that number of times. i.e. 1 = \f x -> f x, 2 = \f x -> f (f x), 3 = \f x -> f (f (f x)) etc.
01:21:58 <shachaf> imo consider scott encoding rather than church encoding
01:22:17 <oerjan> shachaf: i never remember the difference.
01:22:50 <oerjan> also i only mentioned church for the numerals, which are definitely what lazy k uses.
01:23:47 <oerjan> some but not all arithmetic is fairly easy with church numerals.
01:23:54 <oerjan> (subtraction is a pain.)
01:25:01 <shachaf> just like tail is a pain with church lists
01:25:33 <oerjan> > foldr (\x y -> (ord x,var$show y)) $ "Hello, world!" ++ repeat '\256'
01:25:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(GHC.Types.Int,
01:25:35 <lambdabot> with actual type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
01:25:45 <oerjan> hm something not quite right.
01:25:54 <oerjan> > foldr (\x y -> (ord x,var$show y)) undefined $ "Hello, world!" ++ repeat '\256'
01:25:55 <lambdabot> (72,(101,(108,(108,(111,(44,(32,(119,(111,(114,(108,(100,(33,(256,(256,(256,...
01:26:21 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: that's like the first step for encoding "Hello, world!" into lazy k format.
01:27:16 <oerjan> it doesn't bother to use a proper list with a nil format, just inserts infinitely many 256 after the end.
01:29:05 <oerjan> (you'll find that particular encoding in my real fast nora implementation too.)
01:29:36 <oerjan> well, approximately, anyway.
01:39:18 <oerjan> i suppose that could work
01:40:00 <oerjan> although mainly because you can write something that ignores the difference between number >= 256
01:56:56 <oerjan> i sort of interpreted it as \f x -> fix f
01:58:17 <shachaf> imo (exists x. (x, x -> Maybe x))
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02:04:07 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> good unpentadactyl morning! <-- my condolences on losing a finger
02:11:27 <oerjan> @tell mrhmouse (Control.Arrow.>>>)
02:12:31 <lambdabot> Category cat => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
02:12:55 <oerjan> oh right it got moved and generalized
02:13:06 <kmc> :t foldr (\x y -> (ord x,var$show y)) undefined $ "Hello, world!" ++ repeat '\256'
02:13:15 <kmc> ohhhhhhhh trickysauce
02:13:26 <kmc> i was like "how did you construct an infinite recursive tuple type???"
02:13:39 <shachaf> infinite types are too good
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02:14:18 <kmc> > var "a very reasonable name for a variable, don't you think"
02:14:19 <lambdabot> a very reasonable name for a variable, don't you think
02:14:20 <shachaf> a cat, a cab, a bat, bacat!
02:14:48 <shachaf> > text "a very reasonable text, don't you think"
02:14:49 <lambdabot> a very reasonable text, don't you think
02:17:15 <pikhq> > text "An excellent text."
02:18:06 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
02:18:06 <lambdabot> with `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
02:18:06 <lambdabot> Expected type: Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr -> GHC.Base.String
02:18:06 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Base.String -> Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ.Doc
02:18:56 <oerjan> on second thought, that shouldn't work in any shape or form.
02:22:27 <oerjan> @tell <Taneb> I had a dream that I has a secret esoteric lair <-- good, good, we may make an evil overlord of you yet
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02:33:28 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> normally distributed glazed eyes served over bouchées of surreal bread rolls. <-- are you attempting to create québécois/r'lyehan fusion cuisine
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02:44:44 <Bike> the language is like, aklo, or some shit like that.
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03:45:27 <Sgeo> I remember being so confused about over... why didn't anyone tell me that it was modify? (Or, maybe I'm thinking of a different over?)
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06:28:14 <Bike> aw man, google bought boston dynamics.
06:28:38 <Bike> all their robots are gonna be all corporate and soulless now
06:28:49 <kmc> i for one etc.
06:29:15 <Bike> "Executives at the Internet giant are circumspect about what exactly they plan to do with their robot collection."
06:30:00 <Bike> oh, they said they don't want to move into military contracting, at least. i guess
06:31:01 <kmc> military /contracting/
06:32:28 <kmc> leaving open the possibility of developing military robots for their own use
06:32:58 <Bike> oh. heh. yeah.
06:33:20 <Bike> i should research the legality of spider death robots
06:44:33 <prooftechnique> Legality irrelevant. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission
06:45:04 <Bike> it's also easier to ask things if you haven't been shot
06:45:12 <ion> New Amiga 68k port of Doom http://youtu.be/JpjVxuJBWak
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10:29:17 <fizzie> "Runtime Error (at 139:148): Access violation at address 7D2DA677 in module 'gdiplus.dll'. Read of address 00212C84." arrrr this wine be broken.
10:35:19 <fizzie> All 'w' and 'm' characters are also very broken-looking. (Other characters are fine.)
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10:54:23 <fizzie> "Internal error: Expression error 'Runtime Error (at 16:21): Invalid floating point operation.'"
10:54:28 <fizzie> It just keeps getting better.
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13:32:21 <Slereah> ehttps://bitbucket.org/FeministSoftwareFoundation/c-plus-equality
13:32:51 <Slereah> https://bitbucket.org/FeministSoftwareFoundation/c-plus-equality
13:35:17 <Slereah> "1 is inherently phallic and thus misogynistic."
13:35:17 <myname> someone should write a compiler
13:38:03 <Slereah> "Variables self-declaring as pointers are known as "otherkin". A pointer to an array is an "arraykin"."
13:38:15 <myname> Instead of "running" a program, which implies thin privilege and pressure to "work out", programs are "given birth".
13:39:13 <Slereah> I do wonder if you could actually make a language out of it
13:39:20 <Slereah> Or if it is too contradictory
13:39:58 <myname> - header files are known as headHer files, with extension .Xir
13:40:53 <myname> Slereah: interesting, fizzbuzz states that 1 should be success
13:41:08 <Slereah> Clearly that is misogynistic
13:42:18 <Slereah> "Curly brackets are not allowed, as they perpetuate our society's stereotype of the 'curly' women. Instead, Python-esque indentation is used."
13:42:27 <myname> - assignment constrains its lefthand side to an externally imposed presentation and orientation; replaced by accepts(), and lefthand side is free to refuse (NO MEANS NO!)
13:43:21 <Slereah> There are no bugs, only snowflakes.
13:43:56 <myname> "% now known as the 'cock and balls operator'"
13:45:08 <Slereah> I prefer intercal's rabbit operator
13:46:07 <myname> maybe we should make an entry in the esolang wiki
13:46:32 <Slereah> It is the simultaneous use of . and "
13:46:55 <Slereah> Apparently back in punchcard days you could punch two characters as one input
13:50:09 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure you couldn't with a punch-card?
13:50:29 <FireFly> but a line printer could backspace and print a second character on top of an already-printed one
13:51:19 <Slereah> I only vaguely remember what the justification of the rabbit was
13:52:22 <FireFly> Also fun fact, the reason the APL charset is as weird as it is, is mainly because most of the characters were composed in a similar manner by typing one character over another one
13:53:07 <FireFly> So vertical bar and delta gives you ⍋, e.g.
13:53:29 <Slereah> Did they even have keyboards back in APL days?
13:53:50 <Slereah> Character sets don't matter much if you program on punchcards I suppose
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13:55:37 <FireFly> They did; here's what the IBM 2741 looked like apparently: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/IBM_2741_printing_terminal_APL_keyboard.jpg
13:57:23 <int-e> I love the left margin indicator in the middle of the page ...
14:02:33 <FireFly> Oh, by "line printer" I think I meant "teletype"
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14:31:25 <mroman> Does english require to use 'a' in enumerations?
14:31:31 <mroman> a dog, a cat, a hound, a house
14:31:41 <mroman> I have a dog, cat, hound and a house?
14:31:49 <mroman> or I have a dog, a cat, a hound and a house?
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14:43:12 <mroman> I'd like a GTK-Callgirl, too, hunspell
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14:56:36 <Bike> "i have a dog, cat, hound, and house" sounds acceptable to me
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15:00:55 <Bike> with the a's it definitely works though
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15:50:16 <fizzie> Wine went from error messages to "sound stutters, whole computer hangs up, reboots after ten seconds or so"; I think I'll give up on it.
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15:56:08 <fizzie> Perhaps something has configured a software watchdog feature on.
15:56:52 <fizzie> Though /sys/class/watchdog is empty.
15:57:37 <mroman> Linux has software watchdogs that let you reboot the system?
15:57:48 <fizzie> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Linux_Kernel/Softdog_Driver
15:58:11 <fizzie> But I doubt it's enabled by default much anywhere.
15:59:40 <fizzie> Nothing much in the logs at the time of the reboot, except for a "kernel: [16305.769629] NVRM: Xid (0000:01:00): 61, 0092(1e64) 00000000 00000000" line. But that's a bit earlier, I think, and anyway quite frequent occurrence. (I'll blame the nvidia binary blob anyway, it's an easy target.)
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16:02:50 <mroman> if there's a global freeze a software watchdog is useless anyway
16:03:03 <ion> SteamOS comes with a LD_PRELOAD hack that prevents programs from changing the screen resolution, and with a compositor that scales fullscreen windows with a smaller size to the screen resolution. The LD_PRELOAD thing may be a bit of a kluge (and perhaps they’ll change that), but i approve.
16:03:39 <fizzie> mroman: It's kind of a best-effort thing.
16:05:31 <fizzie> 24 out of 75 items in my Steam library have Linux versions, which is quite a percentage, if still a bit disappointing.
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17:19:15 <FreeFull> ion: That's pretty interesting
17:19:27 <FreeFull> I wonder what the performance of that is
17:21:45 <mroman> It's common to use "we" in english papers apparentely?
17:22:04 <mroman> like "we invented some new method" and "we investigate stuff"
17:22:18 <mroman> "we propose a new method ...."
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17:23:38 <mroman> LinearInterpol: So, it's not common?
17:24:11 <LinearInterpol> if you're representing some form of group maybe it's common.
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17:24:37 <LinearInterpol> for example if I cannot deduce who "we" is by just taking into account the context of the sentence..
17:25:11 <LinearInterpol> now if you explicitly specify your context then yes, "we" is acceptable.
17:25:16 <mroman> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/200169/now-vldb.pdf <- that has "we"
17:25:44 <mroman> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/200047/cloudEdge.pdf <- also uses we
17:25:51 <LinearInterpol> because you're representing more than one person and I know that.
17:26:14 <LinearInterpol> it's why they made that apparent at the top of the document.
17:26:19 <mroman> Otherwise you'd use "I"?
17:26:52 <LinearInterpol> because "I" 'points' to the obvious context of the writer unless specified.
17:27:11 <mroman> I'm asking because in german papers you better not use either "we" or "I" at all
17:27:49 <mroman> You'd use passive voice nearly everywhere
17:27:59 <mroman> "A new method was developed" and stuff like that
17:28:01 <LinearInterpol> because you don't want to attach some sort of centered bias.
17:28:12 <mroman> but I've heard that passive voice is very uncommon in english anyway
17:28:28 <LinearInterpol> passive voice is common in english speakers with no knowledge on how they use their words.
17:28:28 <mroman> and some random papers I googled used "we" all over the place
17:28:54 <mroman> I have to translate my german abstract to english
17:29:08 <mroman> And I'm wondering whether I should use we or just stick to passive voice
17:29:25 <LinearInterpol> are you representing a group, and are talking about something that relates to your situation/accomplishments?
17:30:11 <mroman> We have done something.
17:30:30 <mroman> We designed a RISC CPU essentially
17:32:11 <LinearInterpol> designed to mirror some of the qualities of a certain famous MOS Tech. microprocessor.
17:32:12 <Slereah> i wonder how big an OISC CPU would be
17:32:36 <Slereah> I guess maybe a dozen gates or so?
17:32:37 <LinearInterpol> the die itself would probably take up a fraction of the space of most modern dies.
17:32:53 <LinearInterpol> well, it'd certainly be less than modern architectures..
17:33:04 <LinearInterpol> because you essentially are designing a control unit and ALU around one instruction.
17:33:21 <mroman> Yeah. But it's nothing serious
17:33:35 <mroman> it's like building a castle in a sandbox
17:34:05 <fizzie> It's common in single-author papers in our field, at least.
17:34:15 <fizzie> Or so I believe, anyway.
17:34:25 <LinearInterpol> you built a RISC architecture. you can now say you have the capability of designing processor architectures now.
17:34:47 <mroman> I meant what *we* did was nothing serious
17:35:13 <fizzie> It's called [[ The author's "we" ]] in Wikipedia's "Atypical uses of /we/" list.
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17:35:41 <Slereah> The best papers are HEP papers
17:35:50 <Slereah> When there's a thousand authors per paper
17:35:54 <LinearInterpol> fizzie: yeah, that's if you're taking your reader into the context with you.
17:36:39 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I've seen also uses that plainly don't include the reader.
17:38:10 <mroman> If I hadn't had the capability of designig processor architectures I couldn't possibly have designed one
17:38:36 <fizzie> I guess our papers so rarely have a single author.
17:40:40 <fizzie> "To mitigate this, we analyze the problem and present --" from abstract of Christensen, M.G. (only author), "Accurate Estimation of Low Fundamental Frequencies From Real-Valued Measurements", IEEE Transactions on Audio, Speech and Language Processing.
17:40:50 <fizzie> (First single-author paper I could find looking at its recent issues.)
17:40:51 <mroman> How's that a level up?
17:40:58 <mroman> I already knew what I was doing
17:41:18 <LinearInterpol> yes, but saying you knew what you were doing and actually demonstrating it are two different things.
17:41:48 <LinearInterpol> fizzie: that's one of those cases where you bring your reader into the context with you.
17:42:10 <fizzie> The reader is certainly not presenting anything.
17:42:42 <LinearInterpol> it's just like saying "We then can conclude from this observation yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah"
17:42:45 <ion> freefull: Probably not different at all.
17:43:15 <fizzie> LinearInterpol: Well, how about "we refer the interested reader to [20]" -- is the reader part of that too?
17:43:58 <LinearInterpol> that's a bad case of ambiguity: what does "we" really refer to then?
17:44:18 <fizzie> The author of the paper; I don't think it's very ambiguous at all.
17:44:46 <LinearInterpol> because in use of the author's "we", you must refer to both the reader and the author.
17:45:27 <LinearInterpol> so what does "we" refer to? if it refers to the author of the paper it should be "I"
17:45:57 <fizzie> I don't think you need to refer to the reader at all.
17:46:03 <fizzie> It's just a singular we.
17:46:05 <LinearInterpol> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We#The_author.27s_.22we.22
17:46:06 <mroman> LinearInterpol: Yeah, but it's not like I've learned much
17:46:14 <mroman> I learnt that gtk callbacks are type unsafe as hell
17:46:20 <mroman> but that's pretty much it
17:46:21 <fizzie> LinearInterpol: Note the word "often".
17:47:01 <LinearInterpol> that's improper usage if that context is to be interpreted that way.
17:47:44 <fizzie> It can't be improper if it's the accepted practice.
17:47:47 <LinearInterpol> perhaps the author is a member of some organization then.
17:48:30 <fizzie> Well, they ~always are, so if you *want* to interpret them as speaking on behalf of their affiliated organization...
17:49:35 <fizzie> "Some journals prefer using "we" rather than "I" as personal pronoun.[citation needed]" aw, I was hoping for a link.
17:49:54 <mroman> LinearInterpol: Also it's actually a whole computer platform we designed
17:49:59 <mroman> including graphics card, keyboard controller etc.
17:51:02 <mroman> It's not a hardware spec
17:51:07 <mroman> It's a spec of functionality
17:51:14 <mroman> which we implemented in a software emulator
17:52:48 <mroman> and we on the fly designed a programming language too
17:52:54 <LinearInterpol> Ah, lovely. I wish you the best of luck porting it to Verilog. :P
17:52:59 <mroman> and wrote a compiler that targets our architecture
17:53:07 <mroman> LinearInterpol: I'll probably use VHDL
17:53:11 <mroman> since I already know VHDL
17:54:19 <LinearInterpol> It's really good in professional settings though. The verbosity makes it clear.
17:54:40 <LinearInterpol> Unlike a certain programming language who's name starts with the letter J I will fail to recognize the existence of.
17:56:21 <mroman> Have you ever been forced to use J?
17:56:55 <mroman> Then you don't want to use Burlesque :)
17:56:55 <fizzie> mroman: I don't know if you'd really say J's name starts with J.
17:57:35 <mroman> It's a great language though
17:57:47 <CADD> i really enjoyed J
17:58:01 <int-e> fizzie: sure. It ends in J, too, and there's a J in the middle.
17:58:05 <CADD> not java. scre that
17:58:38 <CADD> mroman: do you have any public details i could look at on your processor?
17:58:38 <fizzie> int-e: Sure, but I'm not entirely certain it was the language that was being referred to, given the way it was put.
17:58:46 <CADD> LinearInterpol: indeed
17:59:08 <int-e> fizzie: I'm sure it was the one that starts with J and ends with ava.
17:59:18 <CADD> LinearInterpol: although I did find the mind bending factor of J very interesting. I would not mind being payed to write it.
17:59:50 <fizzie> int-e: Right; it just seems that mroman interpreted it differently, is all.
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18:01:12 <fizzie> (I mean, Burlesque is really much more J-like than Java-like, at least as far as surface syntax is concerned.)
18:01:13 <CADD> LinearInterpol: the coolest part i thought was that it was made by the same guy that invented APL.
18:01:15 -!- Chillectual has changed nick to LinearInterpol.
18:01:28 <CADD> LinearInterpol: wb
18:01:40 <CADD> sadly i have never played with it
18:02:07 <CADD> did you have the special keyboard and all?
18:03:13 <CADD> yeah, the furthest ive gone so far with J is writing an 8-neighbor cellular automata with user settable rules
18:03:39 <CADD> it was a fantastic feeling seeing that the entire algorithm was expressed in 3 rather short lines of code
18:03:58 <CADD> the rest (of about 150 lines) was all gui stuff, lol
18:04:36 <CADD> indeed, i wish more people would use them
18:05:02 <CADD> although a lot of features have been ported over to other languages
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18:05:30 <CADD> which as you know, is the usual tale great lang.
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18:05:53 <CADD> mroman: aww, no info?
18:06:00 -!- yiyus has joined.
18:06:22 <CADD> lol, that was interesting
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18:07:01 <CADD> [li]|Gaming: right back at you
18:07:10 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
18:07:14 <CADD> mroman: on your proccessor/computer system
18:07:27 <CADD> anything open source?
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18:07:51 <mroman> http://bitbucket.org/mroman_/emulathor
18:07:59 <CADD> mroman: thanks!
18:08:16 <mroman> but again: It's not science or useful at all
18:08:57 <CADD> im just interested in absorbing as much as possible
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18:15:14 <mroman> and the compiler is an ugly mess
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18:17:14 <FreeFull> People need to write emulators in Rust
18:18:15 <CADD> mroman: lol, most code is :D
18:19:16 * CADD brain 'splodes.
18:19:29 <CADD> too many ambiguities in english
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18:19:55 <Slereah_> [19:18:49] <Slereah> http://www.osmosian.com/
18:19:55 <Slereah_> [19:18:54] <Slereah> I HATE THEM SO MUCH
18:20:33 <Slereah_> Really Plain English is basically the real version of that feminist language
18:20:55 <CADD> Slereah_: omg, i saw that shit..
18:20:56 <Slereah_> It is based on a Philosophy and it is awful
18:21:13 <Slereah_> I still have the Plain English compiler
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18:22:41 <int-e> *downloads the manifesto* what is that font? are they expecting me to read this?
18:23:06 <Slereah_> You have an exam on that manifesto in one hour
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18:23:12 <CADD> Slereah_: https://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo is a perfect example
18:23:54 <mroman> I like the had had had sentence
18:24:06 <Slereah_> "We believe that the convoluted object-oriented approach — together with the byzantine "C" programming language and all of its derivatives — can be removed from common usage within the next ten years"
18:24:12 <mroman> James while Johns had had had had had had
18:24:21 <CADD> Slereah_: yes, with haskell :D
18:24:24 <Slereah_> This manifesto was written in 2006
18:24:35 <CADD> Slereah_: wow, yeah. im reading through it right now
18:25:29 <Slereah_> Also here is their sample program : http://pastebin.com/Ud8z8f7e
18:25:52 <Slereah_> You think hunting down a semicolon was bullshit?
18:26:33 <int-e> \or is not plain english
18:26:38 <CADD> Slereah_: ugh, yeah i just downloaded the sample.zip.. this looks almost like LOLCODE
18:26:42 <mroman> and there's 'the counter'
18:27:04 <mroman> I have to allocate memory myself?
18:27:10 <mroman> 'Allocate memory for the work'
18:27:21 <Slereah_> Because despite their loud vocalization about everything being in plain english
18:27:26 <mroman> If I have to allocate memory myself I might as well stick to C
18:27:29 <Slereah_> The self compiler is still full of assembly code
18:27:53 <CADD> Slereah_: yeah, this look like a really bad case of the cult of the begginner.
18:28:10 <CADD> interesting never the less
18:28:29 <CADD> just not what i would ever want to use
18:28:52 <Slereah_> Once in a while, I go back to this site
18:29:32 <Slereah_> Much more understandable than C!
18:29:37 <CADD> Slereah_: yeah, i just saw that. what does that do?
18:30:03 <CADD> i downloaded the zip, but no. ive had enough, lol
18:30:39 <CADD> actually, satisfy my morbid curiosity. ive got some time to waste
18:31:05 * CADD prepares for boiling blood.
18:31:22 <Slereah_> Well there it is : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/instructions.pdf
18:32:23 <int-e> "When you start me up, I will quickly take over your screen"
18:32:43 <Slereah_> Oh yeah, the GUI is full fucking screen
18:33:02 <CADD> im debating if i should pull out wine and see how bad it looks
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18:33:57 <CADD> lol, this program is not powerfull enough to conquer xmonad. im glad it did not full screen on me
18:34:10 <CADD> im pretty sure its not going to work though, lol
18:34:54 <CADD> nope, just a black screen
18:35:01 <Slereah_> The full pack is here : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/cal-3037.rar
18:35:46 <Slereah_> Really I don't think the language is that bad
18:36:00 <Slereah_> If it was just some project to make like a language to teach children about computer programming
18:36:11 <Slereah_> But they are so fucking proud of themselves
18:37:23 <Slereah_> "I don't do nested IFs. Nested ifs are a sure sign of unclear thinking, and that is something that I will not countenance. If you think this cramps your style too much, read my code to see how it's done. Then think again."
18:37:54 <Slereah_> "I don't do EQUATIONS. I do a little infix math, and I support "calculated fields", but almost all the code you write will be strictly procedural in nature. As the Osmosians always say, "The universe is an algorithm, not a formula." Words you should take to heart. Especially if you're a math-head."
18:38:03 <int-e> To say it in plain english: bullshit.
18:38:35 <Slereah_> I kinda want to hire them and tell them I want to get a math program
18:38:49 <Slereah_> 10.000 x 10.000 matrix calculation type thing
18:38:58 <CADD> Slereah_: i would have to disagree. iirc i read an article about a high school teacher switching to fp langs and his students understanding it much easier.
18:39:14 <Slereah_> Well I didn't say it would be a good idea
18:39:19 <Slereah_> but it would be an okay project
18:39:41 <Slereah_> But the fact that they want to get rid of all other languages and think theirs is the one true language
18:39:46 <CADD> its good to test the limits of what a programming language is, but dont bullshit the PLT community.
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18:40:25 <int-e> Fortunately, this is the first time I've heard of them. I wish it will be the last.
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18:41:36 <Slereah_> About once a year I rediscover them and rant a bit
18:42:02 <int-e> well please stop doing that then
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18:43:28 <mroman> May I use this moment to convince everybody to use Burlesque. kthxbye
18:43:37 <CADD> Phantom_Hoover: lol
18:43:41 <mroman> it's the most creepiest language around
18:43:58 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/rwb2.pdf <- awesome to parse log files in it
18:44:47 <mroman> It's got a creepy name
18:44:49 <CADD> mroman: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burlesque <- This?
18:45:08 <CADD> mroman: oh, i see what you did there XD
18:45:45 <Slereah_> You know what would be creepy?
18:45:57 <CADD> mroman: yeah, ive actually already seen burlesque. i like it. but im also one of those weirdoes that likes factor.
18:46:26 <Slereah_> Tͮ̎̄̏͗͑͑̈͛͌̾̓ͤ̐ͭ͗҉͕͙̣̬͖̟̤̳͍͈̞͔̠̻͞ͅḩ̡̝̺̪͓̩̹̰̹̩̺̿́ͩ̊̑͋͢ͅṵ͍̳̗̜͖͖͕̭̻̰͛̾̑̿̕͡s̻̙̫͚̣͕̙͚ͥ̽ͫ͒ͥ͂̋̚͘͜l͛͗̃̊̊̓̈́ͯ̄҉҉҉̬͈̤͉̟̯̟͞y̎ͮ̊̌̂̽̏ͤ̾ͧ͂ͯͪ̾̌̚͘͘҉̘̣͍̜͖̠̳̜͙̝̼̥̲́
18:47:55 <CADD> my favorate is haveing just the "fuck up the middle" checkbox selected. just enough embelleshment to be interesting, but not unreadable
18:48:21 <mroman> you just messed up my terminal
18:48:35 <Slereah_> Fortunately mIRC doesn't allow such foolishness
18:48:41 <Slereah_> Characters don't leave their lines!
18:48:52 <mroman> With unicode and putty
18:49:01 <CADD> irssi just doesnt render it properly.. i really should set up my fonts..
18:49:18 <mroman> you can pretty much do such trickery as injecting text so that I read it as if somebody else wrote it
18:49:29 <Slereah_> maybe I should implement Arithmetica
18:49:41 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica
18:49:42 <CADD> lol, as opposed to mathematica?
18:55:28 <mroman> CADD: You saw it on esolangs.org?
18:55:33 <mroman> Or are you golfing on golf.shinh.org?
18:56:05 <nooodl> so is it called Αριθµητικών or Arithmetica
18:56:38 <Slereah_> But I call it Arithmetica for the barbarians reading it
18:56:50 <nooodl> "Arithmetikon" seems closer
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18:57:20 <Slereah_> Arithmetica is closer to latin phonology though
18:58:15 <mroman> nooodl: Why is gs2 still not ready ;)?
18:58:28 <nooodl> i should work on that!!
18:58:38 <CADD> mroman: yup, i saw it on esolangs. i havent golfed yet, but ill try burlesque if i ever do
19:00:29 <mroman> Slereah_: The osmosian compiler is not available for download?
19:01:20 <mroman> also I don't really get the point of programming in plain english
19:01:35 <mroman> programming languages are supposed to be "formal" and "expressive"
19:01:59 <Slereah_> mroman : The compiler used to be available, but they pulled it
19:02:03 <Slereah_> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/cal-3037.rar
19:04:07 <nooodl> implementing this stuff is easy but i don't wanna document it :(
19:04:47 <CADD> mroman: couldnt have said it better myself
19:05:16 <Slereah_> Well if you want to know the reason why they did it
19:05:40 <CADD> i like that you put the word in quotes
19:07:58 <Slereah_> I don't want to sound alarmist but i believe that language was created by Hitler's ghost
19:08:04 <CADD> i think it definitely does deserve being in quotes
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19:08:49 <CADD> wouldnt it be funny if the individual frequented #esoteric?
19:09:15 <Slereah_> It probably qualifies as an esoteric language
19:11:30 <Slereah_> https://web.archive.org/web/20131214191118/http://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
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19:16:11 <CADD> does it get any worse?
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19:16:43 <ais523> huh, that's an interesting line to see out of context when you join a channel
19:17:05 <CADD> oh there have been quite a few
19:17:28 <CADD> ais523: www.osmosian.com <- join the fun
19:18:40 <Slereah_> We were talking about ol' Plain English
19:18:44 <Slereah_> https://web.archive.org/web/20131214191118/http://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
19:21:50 <CADD> i dont get this guy's hardon for claude monet.
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19:25:46 <CADD> im guessing this guy sees himself as some programming ARTEEST
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19:31:09 <CADD> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VdZR3deNdI
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19:33:52 <Sgeo> Why does feathercoin exist? Except to give ais523 nightmares
19:34:06 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't have an objection to the word "feather"
19:35:38 <CADD> lol, well the block chain has been found to be fundamentally broken recently
19:36:48 <CADD> laymans article about the topic by one of the guys that wrote the paper with a link to the paper in the article --> http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/
19:40:13 <Sgeo> "under the best of circumstances, at least 2/3rds of the participating nodes have to be honest to protect against our attack. But achieving this 2/3 bound is going to be difficult in practice. We outline a practical fix to the protocol that is easy to deploy and will guard against the attack as long as 3/4ths of the miners are honest. - See more at: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/#sthash.cF1z946n.dpuf"
19:40:31 <Sgeo> Am I losing my mind, or is 3/4 > 2/3?
19:40:39 <Sgeo> Oh, I'm misreading it
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19:41:24 <CADD> Sgeo: yeah, that confused me for a second too
19:42:36 <mroman> x-1/x probably has lim->inf = 1
19:43:28 <CADD> mroman: agreed
19:44:25 <mroman> the derivation of both is 1
19:46:40 <kmc> "We're looking for people that want to sell Bitcoins on the Bittylicious platform"
19:47:04 <Sgeo> "Our proposed fix raises the threshold to 25% if universally adopted. And, while there may be other fixes, no fix can raise it above 33%. - See more at: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/#sthash.cF1z946n.dpuf"
19:47:11 <Sgeo> Much clearer than that other sentence
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19:54:01 <Sgeo> The comments are just... ugh
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20:00:57 <CADD> Sgeo: I tried to distill the information content of your posts but ended up with the empty set. Here's a gentle hint: if your arguments do not invoke math, they are not going to be persuasive, at least, not to technical people.
20:01:19 <kmc> arguments about what?
20:02:11 <CADD> kmc: i wont post the comment. its pretty long and vacuous. just search a snippet of what i just pasted and look at the comment above it.
20:02:44 <kmc> you're talking about this bitcoin stuff?
20:02:48 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:03:16 <CADD> kmc: mhm. about the link i posted a little while ago
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20:08:48 <CADD> Look, all you're doing is a syntactic match. You're finding words that sound the same in a random walk through concept space.
20:08:55 <CADD> Wow, this man is on a roll.
20:09:10 <CADD> I'm so stealing that line.
20:09:59 <kmc> word salad
20:11:00 <CADD> sure, but it accurately describes what the person being replied to was doing. as well as this is something i encounter a lot and the man put it so succinctly.
20:11:25 <int-e> Nice paper, though they do not show that there strategy is optimal (and thus, the actual required pool sizes may be smaller.)
20:12:48 <CADD> well, i dont think an proof of optimality is neccessary, just that an unfair advantage can be gained through the described process.
20:13:36 <int-e> True, except for the claimed security against pools of 25% size with their fix.
20:14:47 <CADD> you should tell him that then
20:14:55 <int-e> (I didn't mean to distract from the key insight, which is, essentially, that immediately publishing a found block is not necessarily the best possible strategy.)
20:15:33 <CADD> right right, very good point though
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20:38:33 <kmc> fungot: sup
20:38:33 <fungot> kmc: okay, that's fair enough.
20:38:48 <kmc> fungot: too much is never enough
20:38:48 <fungot> kmc: but i'll humor you with random comments
20:38:54 <kmc> fungot: for a nominal fee?
20:38:55 <fungot> kmc: that could work, but there seems to be the fbi field office, or sing sing, or something
20:39:08 <kmc> fungot's going up the river for a good long time
20:39:08 <fungot> kmc: from the eight language polyglot page: " 25 jan 2001 richard stallman the proper name is " fnord"
20:39:19 <kmc> fungot knows the True Name of RMS
20:48:20 <fizzie> That was scary relevant.
20:48:31 <fizzie> At least the initial part.
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20:50:52 * kmc pokes fungot
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21:13:29 <fizzie> Nng, Chromium has somehow stopped making "g" a working keyword for a Google search. If I switch the keyword to something else (like "gg"), it seems to work; but not when it's just "g".
21:14:20 <fizzie> And "g" works if Google is not set as the default search engine.
21:14:30 <fizzie> I wonder if I can somehow have no default search engine.
21:15:01 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to be possible to delete the one set default.
21:20:48 <fizzie> I don't quite understand why it won't work, though.
21:21:32 <fizzie> It seems so very specific to "g"; if Google is set as the default search engine, "g" doesn't seem to work as a keyword for anything else; but other single letters (like "q") are no problem.
21:24:10 <fizzie> Well, I added a new search engine called "Gurgle", with the keyword "g" and a Google search URL, and set that as the default. That seems to work.
21:24:29 <fizzie> With the slight cosmetic issue that the bar now says "search Gurgle" instead of "search Google", but...
21:24:58 <fizzie> (Maybe I should've just switched to that duck thing?)
21:28:59 <madbr> trying to develop a language where each statement contains a bunch of parts that can be evaluated in any order
21:29:22 <madbr> where you could go
21:31:04 <kmc> that seems like a feature and not a bug fungot
21:31:07 <kmc> er, fizzie
21:31:35 <kmc> Two: whenever fungot's not responding, all the other characters should be asking "Where's fungot?"
21:31:37 <madbr> destVector.pushBack(v), v=srcVector[n], !map.has(v)
21:32:10 <fungot> fizzie: calculation of fnord fnord on. i want the old one is so that threads are a bitch
21:32:11 <madbr> this means "add all contents of srcVector that isn't in map into destVector"
21:32:19 <madbr> the compiler would compile it to
21:32:45 <kmc> fungot doesn't like me anymore? :(
21:32:45 <fungot> kmc: fnord annoying that way. and i never seen okoing before...
21:33:03 <fizzie> kmc: There's a limit of no more than four consecutive replies, which I'm sure you're aware of.
21:33:27 <kmc> well I am now
21:33:40 <fizzie> I'm sure that was covered on fungot 101.
21:33:43 <madbr> for(int n=0; n<srcVector.size(); n++) { v=srcVector[n]; if(!map.has(v)) destVector.pushBack(v); }
21:35:07 <madbr> the current tool I'm developping at work is a mountain of iterations on vectors, maps and json objects of various kinds
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21:35:25 <madbr> and the syntax for that kind of manipulation is just too verbose
21:35:38 <kmc> it sounds like logic programming
21:36:03 <madbr> yeah essentially I'm trying to see if I can borrow from logic programming to make code less verbose
21:36:22 <fungot> LinearInterpol: i'm about to go. with your ordinary font it's much less honest it's much easier to just register bsmnt_bot. that's the one
21:36:48 <fungot> LinearInterpol: there's some weird math thing about them comes from them being unary
21:36:51 <madbr> same thing happens in c++
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21:37:00 <madbr> std::vector is nice and I want to use it a lot
21:37:14 <madbr> but the resulting code is kinda wordy
21:37:54 <madbr> the usual attitude to that is something like "the IDE helps you, man up and type more"
21:38:19 <madbr> but even then the code turns into some sortof hard to read dense stuff
21:38:54 <madbr> I could split it into functions more and use more curly braces but it would not make the code any easier to read and any less complex
21:39:23 <madbr> the foreach() you see in python etc is a nice idea but I think it's kindof not enough
21:39:30 <madbr> and it doesn't save you enough typing
21:41:25 <madbr> and there's the functional idea of giving the vector a callback to what you want to do and have it loop
21:41:27 <kmc> god damn it why are there only three Crystal Castles albums
21:41:51 <madbr> but in usual programming languages (C++, java for me) that turns super hyper verbose and isn't something you want to ever do
21:42:19 <kmc> i need at least five more to be happy in life
21:42:38 <madbr> So I'm thinking that language development atm is optimizing the wrong thing
21:43:02 <kmc> thankfully not all languages are C++ or Java
21:43:08 <madbr> they should work on boring old loops and conditionals
21:43:31 <kmc> in Haskell or Python or C# (LINQ) you can do very concise high level traversals & manipulations on data like that
21:44:07 <madbr> python has syntactic whitespace.... which controversial
21:44:20 <kmc> and if there's some pattern not already supported you can define and use it rather than duplicating code
21:44:20 <madbr> but personally I'm under the impression that it's a good idea :D
21:44:55 <kmc> actually C++ supports a lot of trickery too thanks to operator overloading & templates, but it can get pretty unmanageable
21:45:01 <kmc> other languages have nicer ways to do those things
21:46:40 <madbr> usually I try to write my code to use the least possible curly braces
21:46:49 <madbr> so I have a lot of early exits
21:47:07 <madbr> and I've started to use continue and break in loops as well
21:47:47 <madbr> and I try to make loop or conditional statements single line so I don't have to use braces
21:48:33 <kmc> madbr: I think syntactic whitespace is a good idea as long as it's just sugar for an equivalent whitespace-insensitive form
21:48:45 <kmc> so Haskell passes that test but Python doesn't
21:48:53 <kmc> but I still use Python a lot because, meh, no language is perfect
21:49:00 <Taneb> I don't like Python but not for that reason
21:49:09 <Taneb> I... don't really like any language any more
21:49:22 <madbr> I think you have to pick your fights
21:49:33 <kmc> the worst consequence in Python is that lambda is so restricted, also that it's hard to code Python at a REPL
21:49:44 <Taneb> I guess I don't really know many languages
21:49:51 <Taneb> Really, I only know Haskell, Python, and C
21:49:56 <Taneb> Very much in that order, too
21:50:32 <madbr> if you're writing sound rendering code, you can't have dynamic typing or garbage collection
21:50:33 <kmc> Haskell is the language you know best?
21:50:40 <kmc> interesting
21:50:51 <kmc> madbr: do you know much about Rust?
21:50:51 <madbr> so like 99% of sound code is C++
21:51:06 <madbr> I know it's a new interesting thing but I haven't ever used it
21:51:12 <Taneb> I'll be learning Java next term, but I kind of want to get ahead
21:51:20 <Taneb> So the next I'll learn is Java probably
21:51:21 <kmc> it's aiming squarely at the niche of systems code which can't afford garbage collection etc.
21:51:30 <Taneb> I've been meaning to learn loooooaaaaads of languages
21:51:34 <kmc> it's a credible C++ replacement which is exciting because there are so few of those
21:52:11 <Taneb> Rust, Scheme, Common Lisp, Elm, C++, Go, Agda, JavaScript, etc, etc, etc
21:52:30 <kmc> it has two exciting researchy ideas (move/ownership semantics, and region pointers) and the rest is just like let's design a systems language for 2010s instead of 1970, so you get real module system, real macros, pattern matching, etc.
21:52:34 <madbr> taneb : anything you want to program in particular?
21:52:39 <kmc> goooood shit
21:53:10 <Taneb> I want to know enough so that when I think of something I'll be able to say "this language is a good fit" and just write
21:53:25 <madbr> I've also been meaning to design a language for game sprite logic scripting, and there's nothing that fits that
21:53:38 <Taneb> I was writing a Haskell library that did that
21:53:40 <madbr> lua is popular but lua isn't really designed for that
21:53:41 <Taneb> Never finished it, though
21:54:12 <kmc> Taneb: Java is so depressing, it's just incomplete
21:54:30 <madbr> lua is a nice dynamic language in the same family as javascript or python... and I'm not convinced that's what games need
21:54:30 <kmc> and the designers clearly thought of themselves as smarter than the users
21:54:44 <madbr> java is... well, it's usable clearly
21:54:50 <madbr> but it makes you dead inside
21:54:50 <kmc> Taneb: C# has the same basic concepts as Java but actually provides the tools you need to be effective with it
21:55:12 <Taneb> kmc, unfortunately, I can't choose what language I'll use for at least the first year
21:55:30 <Taneb> 2nd year of my course there's a module which is basically "all of them"
21:55:42 <madbr> taneb: you should figure out what kind of company you want to work in
21:55:47 <kmc> I like it when languages are designed around the idea that I do know what I'm doing, which is very different from being designed around the idea that I'll never make mistakes
21:55:48 <madbr> what kind of stuff you want to code
21:56:47 <Taneb> I'd kind of like to be in web backends
21:56:52 <Taneb> For some bizarre reason
21:56:56 <madbr> my interests are sound processing, game stuff so for me it's all about C++
21:56:59 <Taneb> I'd probably hate it after a month, but anyway
21:57:44 <madbr> and even some assembly if I can justify it (not very often unfortunately :D)
21:57:59 <kmc> i love writing assembly
22:00:20 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, the game of life is only from 1970?
22:00:29 <shachaf> i thought it was from 1930 or something
22:00:32 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm only from 1994
22:01:05 <Taneb> My university is probably younger than some people in this channel
22:01:47 <madbr> Taneb : which language do they get you started on?
22:02:20 <madbr> when I did CS at uni (only a year) it was C++ but they were going to switch to python like next year
22:02:45 <Taneb> I know some unis start with Java and others start with Scala
22:03:01 <madbr> yeah some start with java
22:03:16 <madbr> which... makes sense considering the market but is still kinda evil :D
22:03:30 <madbr> scala is functional no?
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22:03:44 <Taneb> madbr, it's mixed paradigm, functional/OO
22:04:02 <madbr> sounds like a very academic approach
22:04:10 <kmc> all languages are "mixed paradigm"
22:04:19 <kmc> paradigms describe code styles not languages
22:04:24 <fizzie> Wonder how many still start with Scheme.
22:04:30 <kmc> at best you can say that a given language suggests or discourages a particular style
22:04:41 <Taneb> madbr, this was Oxford, and they switch to Haskell later
22:04:59 <int-e> I have a colleague using Scala, and he keeps confusing me when he talks about the number of arguments a function takes (he doesn't count the implicit object from the OO paradigm part)
22:08:53 <kmc> i like that 'self' is an explicit argument in Python, and that bound object methods are just partial application closures over 'self'
22:09:20 <kmc> in Rust you write a 'self' argument as well but it's a keyword and has special syntax which is confusingly different from other args :/
22:09:43 <madbr> What's wrong with the implicit argument?
22:10:52 <kmc> it's a vague aesthetic preference only
22:11:13 <kmc> in Rust you need to write it because methods can take 'self' by reference or by value or other ways
22:12:37 <kmc> if you have «let x = ...; x.f();» and f takes self by value, then x is moved into the method call and using the variable x after that call is statically forbidden
22:12:41 <kmc> which is a neat capability
22:12:47 <VipSS> thx god its sunday
22:13:04 <kmc> @localtime VipSS
22:13:05 <lambdabot> Local time for VipSS is 2013-12-14 23:13:04 +0000
22:13:29 <pikhq_> I don't think it's Sunday there.
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22:16:18 <VipSS> i think it is so !!! wake up or sleep ! sundayyyy :(
22:16:35 <kmc> `relcome VipSS
22:16:39 <HackEgo> VipSS: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:23:08 <VipSS> fizzie: do you agree ?
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22:31:41 <fungot> FireFly: wonder if i can find about it
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22:33:22 <VipSS> hi phantom , thx, d you ?
22:35:47 <VipSS> hey can we find a drink ?! i am ;) cheerrzz
22:36:48 <ais523> VipSS: do you understand what this channel's about?
22:38:06 <ais523> it's about programming languages, specifically ones that are designed to be weird rather than useful
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22:39:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's supposed to be about that, though
22:39:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I thought our rule atm was that people have to be at least interested in being ontopic on occasion
22:39:44 <ais523> like, otherwise it'd just be #defocus
22:40:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, yes, but primarily it serves as a centring point for all the other things we talk about
22:41:37 <VipSS> do you mean hacking and virus programs ! and you can talk about solutions !
22:42:24 <ais523> there's some overlap, but it's mostly about admiring things like ASCII-only code
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22:46:28 <VipSS> i will tell my opinion about, after ... you know
22:47:53 <VipSS> joking , it is none of my interest , sorry guys
22:48:35 <b_jonas> ais523: is it only about esoteric programming languages, not about esoteric code in other programming languages?
22:49:11 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not really a stretch to make it about esoprograming generally
22:49:45 <ais523> actually this is (or used to be) a good channel for me to ask when I have bizarre programming problems in general
22:49:58 <ais523> because it tends to solve the problem you claim to have rather than the problem it thinks you have
22:50:04 <ais523> and sometimes I have some very weird problems
22:50:07 <b_jonas> ais523: oh sure, but I'm asking what epcifically counts as on topic
22:50:42 <ais523> I remember going to #ocaml with a question that boiled down to "I have a sandbox that works like X for my marking script, now I need to convert a char to a string, but because of my sandbox I can't use the standard library, any ideas?"
22:50:55 <ais523> btw, the solution is that strings are mutable in OCaml
22:51:03 <ais523> so you start with an arbitrary one-character string
22:51:10 <ais523> then concatenate it to the null string to create a fresh string
22:51:15 <ais523> and then mutate the fresh string
22:51:24 <Taneb> What was the #ocaml solution?
22:51:39 <ais523> Taneb: we were working on it together, that solution was what we came up with collectively
22:51:53 <ais523> someone else mentioned using the standard library via the FFI rather than directly
22:51:59 <ais523> I didn't pay much attention to that
22:52:05 <ais523> but one of the students escaped the sandbox using it
22:52:12 <ais523> so perhaps I should have done
22:52:39 <ais523> but because I'm paranoid, there were two sandboxes
22:52:45 <ais523> and they didn't escape the outside one, so all was well
22:53:16 <b_jonas> at what level where the two sandboxes? the ocaml compiler and the operating system?
22:54:11 <ais523> one was at the parser level, it rejected uses of unauthorized libraries via refusing to parse them
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22:54:19 <ais523> the other was Linux's syscall-based sandbox
22:54:37 <ais523> that turns off all syscalls but reads and writes to files that were already opened in advance, exits, and returning from signal handlers
22:55:39 <ais523> the sysadmins actually set up a VM for that, because it wasn't compiled into the kernel on the standard Linux build at our organization
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22:56:09 <b_jonas> so in html, I can use <input type="image" ismap src="someurl" /> to have a server-side image map that submits a form, right?
22:56:56 <ais523> I can believe that something like that's possible
22:56:59 <ais523> but don't know the syntax
22:57:42 <b_jonas> it's clearly possible but the question is whether it's possible without javascript
22:58:06 <b_jonas> the html standard seems to say it's possilbe, but I'll have to test how much it works in browsers
23:01:57 <ais523> I wonder if it's on http://caniuse.com
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23:03:03 <b_jonas> ais523: nice webpage, I haven't heared of that
23:06:58 <b_jonas> let me check what that says about extra svg blending modes like http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/
23:08:14 <b_jonas> why do those have only the more expensive multiply and screen modes instead of supporting the faster add and subtract as well though? more expensive when alpha is involved that is.
23:08:46 <b_jonas> nope, http://caniuse.com/ doesn't mentino these
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23:53:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat | Set the controls for the heart of the sun | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
23:54:03 <nooodl> > [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat
23:54:04 <lambdabot> [Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Jus...
23:55:12 <oerjan> (hint: compare to previous topic)
23:55:53 <ion> su015315 -: NOTHING IS BEYOND OUR REACH
23:55:55 <ion> su015315 +: [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat
23:58:26 <ais523> since when was colon lambdabot syntax?
23:58:42 <oerjan> only for :t and :k, though
23:59:05 <ais523> so trying to understand that work
23:59:33 <ais523> I mentally expand it into "do {x <- [Just (), Nothing]; repeat x}", is that the correct resugaring?
23:59:43 <nooodl> easier to just think of it as
23:59:50 <nooodl> concatMap repeat [Just (), Nothing]
00:00:09 <nooodl> = repeat (Just ()) ++ repeat Nothing
00:00:58 <ais523> repeat's being interpreted as a List monad action
00:01:15 <ais523> OK I think I understand this
00:01:28 <nooodl> > [repeat x | x <- [Just (), Nothing]]
00:01:29 <lambdabot> [[Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Ju...
00:02:09 <oerjan> > [y | x <- [Just (), Nothing], y <- repeat x]
00:02:10 <lambdabot> [Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Jus...
00:02:23 <ais523> why did Haskell get rid of monad comprehensions?
00:02:28 <ais523> because they were just more complex than do-notation?
00:03:10 <oerjan> ais523: it was all part of that "making types simpler for newbies" stuff in the transition from haskell 1.4 to haskell 98
00:03:16 <nooodl> i think they're not very useful and make things unnecessarily complicated
00:03:21 <oerjan> e.g. map used to be fmap
00:03:29 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
00:03:40 <nooodl> or, well, unnecessarily generalized
00:03:41 <oerjan> ais523: there's an extension to reenable them now, though.
00:04:28 <nooodl> i don't like how fmap looks usually :( it's weird
00:04:40 <nooodl> i often catch myself writing <$> but that's so "perl"
00:04:48 -!- FreeFull has quit.
00:05:26 <ais523> now I'm wondering how <$> parses in Perl
00:05:46 <ais523> I guess as "<" and "$>"
00:06:05 <ais523> (where $> is, umm, effective UID?)
00:06:21 <kmc> `perl-e print $>
00:06:33 <kmc> `perl-e print 2 <$>
00:07:04 <oerjan> `interp perl print "i think this should work, unless it broke"
00:07:06 <HackEgo> exec: 4: ibin/perl: not found
00:07:18 <HackEgo> Final $ should be \$ or $name at -e line 1, within string \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "print <$>" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
00:07:28 <ais523> oh, right, that makes a /lot/ of sense
00:07:46 <ais523> can't interpolate $> into a literal read from filehandle for the same reason you can't interpolate $" into a string
00:07:51 <HackEgo> String found where operator expected at -e line 1, at end of line \ (Missing semicolon on previous line?) \ Final $ should be \$ or $name at -e line 1, within string \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "print "$"" \ Can't find string terminator '"' anywhere before EOF at -e line 1.
00:07:59 <ais523> I was wondering how that would parse
00:08:08 <FireFly> And monad comprehensions were actually a standard thing?
00:08:23 <kmc> the Haskell Committee: I liked their earlier work better
00:09:45 <ais523> kmc: I think $" is to do with interpolating an array into a string
00:10:07 <ais523> `perl-e my @x = qw/1 2 3/; local $" = '-'; print "@x";
00:10:16 <oerjan> @let {-# LANGUAGE MonadComprehensions #-} {- doubt it works but worth a try -}
00:11:19 <oerjan> @let {-# LANGUAGE MonadComprehensions #-}; test = [x | x <- Just "test"]
00:11:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t0]' with actual type `Maybe [Char]'
00:11:20 <lambdabot> In the return type of a call of `Just'
00:11:20 <lambdabot> In a stmt of a list comprehension: x <- Just "test"
00:12:32 <oerjan> i suppose it has to disable language extensions for security anyhow.
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01:19:52 <oerjan> `unicode CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O
01:20:07 <oerjan> @tell fizzie <fizzie> With the slight cosmetic issue that the bar now says "search Gurgle" instead of "search Google", but... <-- try with cyrillic o (о) maybe?
01:20:20 <ais523> `unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER OMICRON
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01:51:37 <ion> https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9974-PAXN-6252 Why does DirectX install with every game? […] the only way to distribute them is to run the installer, that's also the only supported method from Microsoft to check that the correct version installed. Trying to manually check for the correct versions is extremely complicated […] In addition, the dependencies and required checks may
01:51:39 <ion> change in each new version of the D3DX runtime. The code to check correctly and repair broken installs all exists in the installer and running it is a guarantee that the correct binaries will exist when you run the game
01:52:44 <oerjan> <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, the game of life is only from 1970? <-- how old did you think conway was, anyway?
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01:53:57 <Bike> i'm not sure how old conway is. he has done a lot of things.
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01:54:50 <Bike> oh, an erdos number of one. of course he's done a lot of shit then
01:56:03 <oerjan> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE
01:56:18 <oerjan> i'm sure there are _some_ people with an erdős number of one who only did that one paper with erdős.
01:56:50 <oerjan> conway is not one of them.
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01:58:13 <Bike> i was about to ask for a list of everyone with an erdos number of one but then remembered the entire point is that he cowrote a shitfuck of papers
01:58:38 <Bike> 511, apparently
01:58:41 <oerjan> i think there's a list over at the erdős number project site
01:59:52 <Bike> huh, some neat stats here
01:59:56 <Bike> «The five people with more than 200 coauthors are Paul Erdös (of course) with 509 (although the MR data actually show only 504, missing some coauthors of very minor works or works before 1940, when MR was started), FRANK HARARY (Erdös number 1) with 268, Yuri Alekseevich Mitropolskii (Erdös number 3) with 244, NOGA ALON (Erdös number 1) with 227, and Hari M. Srivastava (Erdös number 2) with 244.»
02:00:08 <oerjan> i think conway is special for doing _both_ very deep and very popular math
02:00:14 <Bike> i have never heard of the others actually
02:00:17 <Bike> oerjan: yes it's great
02:00:39 <Bike> i always thought of conway as that guy who did Life and Doomsday and then i found out, oh, no, he's really a trillion times smarter than me
02:01:52 <Bike> " a person who has collaborated but does not find herself in the Erdös component of C has on the average collaborated with only one or two people"
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02:02:52 <Bike> it's weird to think about the average erdos number increasing over time even though it's super obvious
02:03:57 <oerjan> i guess it's technically occasionally decreasing too
02:04:47 <Bike> hm, i wonder what the data would look like for academia in general
02:06:28 <ais523> doesn't it go up whenever anyone is born, and down the rest of the time?
02:07:28 <ais523> or are you only counting people with a non-infinite value?
02:07:38 <Bike> non-infinite, i suppose
02:07:55 <Bike> i might be overestimating the effect of time given that the 'maximum' number is 13 according to the enp
02:08:52 <ais523> each individual person's goes down over time
02:08:55 * oerjan notes that conway was born on doomsday
02:09:06 <Bike> basically i want to know the erdos number of edward gibbon.
02:09:29 <ais523> hmm… I almost certainly have an Erdős number, but it'll be hard to determine it automatically because I have such a common name
02:10:06 <oerjan> ais523: try your collaborators unless they're too many?
02:10:15 <ais523> yeah, probably the best option
02:10:32 <Bike> enp also notes that collaboration has gone up over time so the farther back in time i go the more unconnected components there will be, probably
02:11:38 <Bike> i'm still amused by the fact i can look up an ethologist on academictree and trace his lineage back to paul of tarsus D
02:11:51 <oerjan> ais523: it goes up if someone dies who has lower than average, and down in the opposite case
02:12:04 <oerjan> and can go down whenever a paper is published
02:12:18 <ais523> and up when someone new joins the field
02:12:37 <Bike> let's see, darwin collaborated with captain fitzroy, now who did fitzroy collaborate with,
02:12:38 <ais523> I guess people who die will tend to have a below-average number due to being older than the average researcher on average
02:12:41 <ais523> and thus having produced more papers
02:12:54 <oerjan> we're not counting infinites, so someone joining the field can still go either way.
02:13:37 <oerjan> as long as the average is larger than 1+minimum
02:13:53 <Bike> now i want biology metrics help
02:15:10 <Bike> like are things different since mathematical discovery is generally different from bug discovery
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02:22:34 <Bike> mine's infinity. nice&tidy
02:23:30 <Bike> kind of a nonsensical question i think?
02:27:19 <oerjan> LinearInterpol: http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/collaborationDistance.html
02:29:59 <oerjan> ais523: hm i tried your name and it claims to find several but the selection menu is buggy, perhaps it's because it's too large.
02:30:18 <ais523> oerjan: try Dan Ghica, Satnam Singh (although the latter name may still be ambiguous)
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02:34:21 <oerjan> 4+1 = 5 for the first, none for the second
02:35:21 <oerjan> lots of just S. or S. + another initial, though
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02:38:51 <oerjan> also i think the menu wasn't actually buggy i was just confused by it not opening a new page directly on clicking the item
02:40:37 <oerjan> sadly, unless you've collaborated with either John R. Blake or Albert John Petkay, neither option is you
02:42:42 <oerjan> @tell oklofok *MWAHAHA* i now know your middle name!
02:45:10 <oerjan> @tell oklofok unless mathscinet is confusing you with someone else
02:45:53 <oerjan> cue him using "oklopol" exclusively for the next 3 years.
02:49:08 <oerjan> hm i'm finding further evidence that the initial is correct.
02:50:26 <oerjan> (aka his university homepage.)
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02:53:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: but that only implies ais523's 14
02:54:01 <oerjan> all cardinals are ordinals unless you're dictatorially opposed to free choice
02:54:50 <coppro> oerjan: all cardinals are ordinals
02:54:57 <coppro> choice just affects whether every set has a size
02:55:32 <oerjan> coppro: no you can also use foundation instead
02:56:02 <oerjan> and do something like "a cardinal is the set of all minimal rank sets of that size"
02:57:19 <oerjan> but i guess if you have neither, then i don't know how to choose a suitable "witness" for a given cardinality.
02:57:56 <oerjan> a unique one, that is.
02:59:38 <oerjan> hm does foundation imply every set is smaller than a beth?
03:03:42 <oerjan> "In ZF, for any cardinals κ and μ, there is an ordinal α such that:"
03:03:43 <oerjan> \kappa \le \beth_{\alpha}(\mu).
03:04:19 <oerjan> which i take to mean yes
03:04:20 <Bike> i was just thinking that 'infinity' in the context of erdos numbers isn't very setty anyway
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03:04:44 <Bike> i /guess/ you could take it as not reached by incrementing which is like the smallest infinity
03:05:13 <oerjan> it's more like "maximal element of order", used when taking minimum of empty set.
03:05:21 <Bike> anyway i kind of want to see the mathematical collaboration graph
03:05:37 <Bike> the thing says it's small worldy, but are there like, bottlenecks between different fields, say
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03:50:01 <zzo38> Whose stupid idea was it to save note period values in a .MOD file but then convert them to note numbers upon loading? Better would be to play the note periods actually stored instead, but that isn't how it is done.
03:50:43 <madbr> zzo38 : it's a storied format :D
03:50:57 <madbr> s3m and later formats don't have that mistake
03:52:44 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, they store the note numbers directly; I still think it would make sense to use the stored note periods to play the notes rather than converting between them, although this makes arpeggio effect difficult (although storing the arpeggio as individual notes instead would solve this too)
03:53:24 <madbr> but then how do you transpose a sample?
03:53:37 <madbr> go through all of the periods using that sample and change them?
03:53:59 <madbr> also you'd still need to turn them into notes to show them in the editor
03:55:40 <zzo38> Yes you would transpose a sample in that way, if you need to deal with the existing file, I suppose
03:56:14 <zzo38> And I don't intend to read them to show in the editor anyways; I intend to use a compiler to produce the .MOD or whatever which is then played back using OpenMPT or MegaZeux or whatever other software would play them
03:56:49 <madbr> well, now you know why notes are stored that way
03:57:18 <madbr> MODs/s3ms/etc are also the project file you edit
03:57:32 <madbr> they're not some kind of stripped/compiled output
03:58:18 <zzo38> Yes, you can load them in various editors, although maybe you do want to produce them with a compiler instead, which would be more useful to do things a bit differently
03:59:07 <Bike> format is bad for doing thing is was not made for
03:59:44 <madbr> I think ppl who produced music with a compiler went for some other formats
04:00:24 <zzo38> However many programs expect to use .MOD or .S3M formats for music
04:00:35 <madbr> stuff like register write lists for the target sound chip (like the gym format or at least one of the adlib log formats)
04:00:48 <madbr> zzo: yes, because there are lots of good sounding MODs and S3Ms
04:01:11 <madbr> and there are lots of good sounding MODs and S3Ms because there are good editors for making them :D
04:01:55 <kmc> drinking gløgge
04:02:11 <kmc> ain't no law in the water
04:02:46 <Bike> ain't no law in the watr
04:02:49 <kmc> ah, my host mis-spelled it then
04:03:01 <kmc> wikipedia agrees with you
04:03:12 <kmc> (this is the danish spelling)
04:03:14 <zzo38> I do know of other sound formats, such as .VGM which stores register writes for many sound chips (even more than one at once, and many of them can be doubled), but still I was asking because of programs that expect to use MOD/S3M format, which is why I wanted to write a compiler to create such files
04:04:02 <kmc> fungot: u want gløgg?
04:04:02 <fungot> kmc: not lots, but they don't exist
04:04:27 <oerjan> kmc: good, i was briefly wondering if it were the danes who somehow added an e.
04:04:47 <oerjan> they might do such silly things
04:07:51 <oerjan> (the swedes, if being silly, would add an a instead.)
04:07:53 <madbr> zzo : kindof the way it happened is that they were hardware periods at first
04:08:12 <madbr> zzo38 : but then later on someone wrote... I think it was protracker
04:08:22 <madbr> which lets you finetune the samples
04:09:01 <kmc> anyway it's gøød
04:09:08 <madbr> to avoid having to reupdate all the periods in the song when you change the finetune in a sample, notes are parsed in that bizarre way
04:09:18 <kmc> the gløgg is good
04:12:30 <oerjan> kmc is getting drøgged with gløgg
04:13:05 <kmc> i won't deny it
04:13:08 <oerjan> or possibly just drønk
04:13:14 <kmc> `quote dronk
04:13:16 <HackEgo> 724) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
04:13:43 <kmc> now dipping ginger cookies in the gløgg
04:13:46 <zzo38> And which programs support FM instruments in S3M anyways? How many files use that anyways?
04:14:02 <oerjan> (norwegian ø is not too far from english u in that position)
04:14:20 <madbr> zzo38 : I think modplug tracker actually will play the FM channels
04:14:56 <madbr> zzo38 : irl the reason why nobody uses FM channels is that they are out of sync
04:14:59 <Bike> frequency modulation...?
04:15:05 <madbr> (in the original tracker)
04:15:13 <zzo38> madbr: Looking in the samples menu I don't see anything about FM, though
04:15:38 <madbr> because the sample channels are mixed into a buffer which is played after some time
04:15:48 <madbr> but the fm channels play instantaneously
04:16:17 <madbr> so s3ms are either all FM (I've seen only 2 of those!) or all samples
04:16:24 <madbr> (every other s3m!)
04:17:48 <zzo38> There are other formats for FM anyways
04:18:48 <madbr> there are like 20 different formats for opl2
04:19:06 <zzo38> VGM is one of the formats that supports OPL2 and even OPL3 and OPLL
04:19:23 <zzo38> (And you can use all of them in the same file too if you want to)
04:21:39 <madbr> so in practice s3ms are like MODs but better
04:22:01 <ion> wants http://imgur.com/a/LpuE8
04:27:51 <madbr> because nothing plays the fm instruments because why
04:37:50 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe it was a different conway, who knows
04:52:19 <oerjan> shachaf: there's another that did/does complex function theory iirc
04:53:12 <shachaf> btw the fact that the cantor set is called that is kind of silly
04:53:23 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Conway
04:53:56 <shachaf> well, cantor is responsible for quite a lot of sets
04:54:08 <kmc> most mathematicians are
04:54:14 <Bike> but the cantor set is The Coolest of them.
04:54:49 <shachaf> Bike: cooler than a raccoon?
04:54:59 <Bike> did cantor make a racoon set
04:55:12 <oerjan> slight clarification, it seems he wrote a _book_ about complex functions, but actual research in functional analysis.
04:55:20 <shachaf> no but there was a raccoon here next to me a few minutes ago
04:55:25 <kmc> how does that happen
04:55:43 <kmc> http://www.chrisabraham.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/racoon-pope-Sean-Tejaratchi.png
04:56:05 <Bike> cool there's people arguing that circuits are fundamentally different from programs because fpgas aren't real or something
04:56:52 <shachaf> i am currently in san francisco but going back south soon
04:57:40 <kmc> ask santa claus for an fpga
04:57:50 <kmc> shachaf: how's san francisco
05:06:14 <kmc> douglass_ and I went to a pet store today kind of by accident
05:06:19 <kmc> we managed not to buy any cats
05:06:20 <kmc> or raccoons
05:07:23 <madbr> they have raccooons in pet shops?
05:07:33 <kmc> i don't think so
05:08:02 <kmc> one of the weird things about Tirana, Albania is that there are about five pet shops on every block
05:08:22 <zzo38> Why are these .S3M formats and so on so confusingly designed?
05:08:46 <Bike> historical materialism, zzo
05:09:28 <shachaf> kmc: imo your house needs a cat
05:09:34 <kmc> imo cat cafe
05:09:57 <madbr> zzo : because it's just how some dude arranged stuff in a real mode dos program :o
05:10:47 <kmc> keepin' it real mode
05:11:32 <madbr> like s3m file offsets are real mode segments :D
05:12:06 <zzo38> I am not talking about those kind of things actually
05:12:54 <kmc> does that just mean they're in units of 16 bytes?
05:13:15 <shachaf> kmc: imo pointless cat cafe
05:13:33 <Bike> maybe n-category cafe should open a physical frnachise
05:13:49 <kmc> topless pointology
05:14:13 <zzo38> But rather I mean the way channel mapping works, and how some effects are ignored on tick 0, and so on
05:17:21 <kmc> zzo38: is that because it takes one tick to set up the effect?
05:17:34 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know why.
05:18:52 <Bike> hey zzo38 what do you think of i2s
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05:19:05 <zzo38> I don't know what that is
05:19:27 <Bike> it is a serial format for transmitting music between integrated circuits
05:36:31 <madbr> zzo : s3m channel mapping was confusing because the tracker mapped differently on soundblaster than on gravis ultra sound :o
05:41:53 <madbr> and editing the channel map in st3 would move around the channels in some bizarre way
05:45:42 <madbr> normally you just map channels 0-15, aka left1, right1, left2, right2, left3, right3, etc...
05:46:57 <madbr> and override that default panning because that kind of hard-left/hard-right panning sounds kinda stupid
05:52:32 <zzo38> Yes it is stupid like that too
06:09:34 <madbr> it makes sense on a 386 with a sb pro when trying to save every last cycle but still
06:10:24 <zzo38> They seem to contain various stupid things which might cause problems to write a compiler into such formats; what is best way to write such a compiler in a way that would work in best way?
06:10:49 <madbr> are your notes quantized in time?
06:11:12 <madbr> ie do they arrive exactly on 16ths, 8ths, beats etc
06:12:01 <zzo38> Usually they would be, but they might not be, due to some things
06:12:19 <madbr> if they are not, you have to use the delay effect
06:12:35 <madbr> (SD1, SD2, SD3 etc)
06:13:24 <madbr> alternatively you could play around with the playback speed (effect A - change speed) but that has other issues
06:13:44 <madbr> (mostly that your slides don't end up being quite the same)
06:14:39 <madbr> the main problem is that you can only have 1 effect per row
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06:15:54 <madbr> so if you need a pitch slide that can't happen at the same time as a note delay
06:18:29 <madbr> normally you end up fine because most effects are only applied on either note start (sample offset, glissando, note delay...) or later on the note (vibrato, volume slides, pitch slide down...)
06:21:02 <madbr> some stuff like spc converters set the speed super high (like A02) to sorta solve some of these issues, but then you end up with other issues anyways (mostly that slides end up rather strange)
06:23:31 <zzo38> Yes there are those kind of issues too, I thought of
06:33:52 <zzo38> I wanted to write a MML compiler into one or more of these music formats
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06:36:57 <zzo38> Currently it is difficult to use MML with such software that expects music in .MOD or .S3M format, since no such program to compile it is exist
06:37:55 <shachaf> lots of things suggest that topoi are good should i learn about them y/n
06:42:22 <zzo38> madbr: Are you aware of existing such softwares though?
06:47:48 <farrioth> So, I've been thinking about natrual-language-like programming languages such as Inform 7 and, arguably, COBOL. I wonder if they provide any advantages in expression to the programmer (i.e., better ability to program in such a language) based on the programmer being able to use UG (Universal Grammar), or whether the syntactic simalarities to natrual language are really only superficial, and so provide only an a priori familiarity wi
06:48:23 <zzo38> farrioth: Your message isn't finished, but I think they aren't advantageous.
06:48:32 <madbr> farrioth : I think we don't know enough about irl languages
06:48:38 <Bike> also UG is silly.
06:48:50 <Bike> and doesn't even apply.
06:48:55 <madbr> a lot of language processing irl is statistic
06:49:09 <Bike> my name is bike.
06:49:21 <Bike> madbr: topoi seem to be something something grothendieck
06:50:23 <farrioth> madbr: Explicitly, implicitly, or to answer my question?
06:50:49 <madbr> like, what google translate does it a whole bunch of stats
06:51:03 <madbr> to figure out what's the most likely translation of a group of words
06:51:24 <Bike> there are some theories that humans work in similar ways. i personally don't buy this but some real linguists do.
06:51:42 <Bike> chomsky is kind of out of sorts nowadays.
06:51:45 <farrioth> Bike: Hello; and even if one doesn't take a strong Chomskyan view (I only do for the sake of discussion), you could argue that L1 gives a learning advantage to L2, and I wonder if this applies if L2 is a natrualistic programming language.
06:52:10 <Bike> it's possible.
06:52:30 <zzo38> I think such programming languages provide disadvantages to learning them and programming in them and expression, although they may provide advantages to understand the program more easily, once it is already written.
06:52:33 <Bike> i don't know anything about language acquisition, though, and i'm reasonably sure that good research on programming language acquisition does not exist.
06:52:42 <Bike> just a lot of made up thoughts.
06:53:59 <zzo38> An idea I had is if you are using such natural-language programming, have the program include various annotations and other symbols, and underlying codes in other programming languages that can be specified using escapes, and have it reformat them for printout. In fact I wanted to do this for Magic: the Gathering cards, too.
06:54:00 <farrioth> I've seen reasonably convinicing arguments that language processing by humans is probablilistic (such as by Florian Jaeger); it is certainly context-dependant.
06:54:20 <farrioth> Bike: Research on programming language acquisition would be interesting.
06:54:34 <farrioth> Bike: And I don't suspect there is much.
06:55:24 <Bike> well, i don't think what you're talking about is particularly dependent on the underlying mechanism, i mean. it could be true in both a chomskyian and a norvig...ian world
06:55:35 <farrioth> zzo38: Do you think such language provide disadvantages to learning because they are natrualistic? And what properties of natrual language makes this so?
06:55:59 <Bike> i'm just pretty skeptical of constructed languages though. seen too many dumbasses thinking they have unlocked the key of thought
06:56:05 <farrioth> Bike: I agree, I was just framing it in terms of UG for convenience.
06:56:19 <farrioth> Bike: The Ithkuil crowd and so on?
06:56:58 <Bike> "esigned to express deeper levels of human cognition briefly yet overtly and clearly, particularly with regard to human categorization" looks like it
06:57:13 <farrioth> zzo38: I would argue that NL is unsuitable as a programming paradigm primarily due to the fact that ambiguity is often desirable in NL, but not for code.
06:57:17 <zzo38> farrioth: Nearly all of the properties, I suppose. The programming language still has limitations and things that are unclear when you try to read it as a natural-language rather than as the program, so you will write everything wrong because it "looks right" to you...
06:57:34 <Bike> ambiguity can be desirable in programming
06:58:01 <farrioth> zzo38: Indeed. I've had similar experiences interacting with NL parses, e.g., in IF (interactive fiction).
06:58:15 <farrioth> Bike: But compilers/interpreters struggle with it, surely?
06:58:19 <Bike> for example, in "higher-level" languages like C most of the point is targeting
06:58:27 <Bike> the same C program can "mean" different things
06:58:52 <farrioth> Bike: Are you talking about reusable code?
06:59:07 <zzo38> farrioth: Yes I don't like or use Inform 7 at all, and yes even in IF games the entry can sometimes be a bit confusing but not nearly as much.
06:59:09 <Bike> no, just the results of compilation or interpretation.
06:59:52 <Bike> when you write "a += 4" you don't particularly care if that's implemented as an addition or as four increments or as nothing because "a" was optimized out, much of the time
07:00:23 <farrioth> Bike: Maybe the same code may 'mean' different things in different contexts (if I understand you), but this is actually a case of reusability, as the meaning to the computer is not context-dependent, even though the meaning to the programmer or user may be.
07:00:30 <madbr> but then it's all x86, arm or some kind of risc
07:00:38 <madbr> it can't vary that much
07:01:07 <Bike> yes, and when i say "ambiguity can be desirable in programming" you can't reasonably interpret that as "buy me a soda" :p
07:01:22 <farrioth> Bike: Ambiguity is the reverse of that, what you're describing seems more akin to synonymy to me.
07:01:33 <Bike> cross language synonymy
07:01:38 <zzo38> madbr: Not always, actually
07:01:40 <Bike> there's also undefined behavior.
07:02:20 <farrioth> zzo38: Do you know if I7 has seen much favour in the IF community by the way? I haven't kept up with such things for years.
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07:03:16 <zzo38> farrioth: It seems to be popular although I do not recommend it
07:04:12 <farrioth> zzo38: Your argument above, "... so you will write everything wrong because it "looks right" to you," essentially means that your L1 will cause interference problems for the programming L2. Do you think that is a valid formalisation?
07:04:38 <zzo38> farrioth: I am not sure what you mean by "L1" and "L2".
07:04:45 <farrioth> zzo38: I though as much. I suspect it's popular with the 'writers' who want to make IF but don't have (much) programming experience.
07:05:18 <farrioth> zzo38: Sorry, language acquisition terminology. L1 = the language you speak; L2 = the language you are learning.
07:05:24 <Bike> in natural language acquisition studies, L1 is the first language you learn (the native language) and L2 are others.
07:09:39 <farrioth> Bike: Re the synonymy, what you are describing is multiple constructs that have the same meaning/result, but what I was meaning by ambiguity was one construct which has multiple meanings/results, the choice between which is not trivial.
07:10:19 <farrioth> Bike: You were saying that just the former is desirable in programming, right?
07:10:37 <Bike> no, i'm thinking of the C source as the "one construct" and multiple possible compilations as "multiple meanings/results".
07:11:58 <farrioth> Bike: Ah. I was referring to ambiguity in terms of what a piece of code does, not how it does it.
07:12:10 <farrioth> Bike: I'd simply call that abstraction, incedentally.
07:12:22 <farrioth> Bike: But you have a valid point that that is desirable.
07:13:18 <Bike> how about polymorphism?
07:14:38 <farrioth> Sure, but I think that has a different technical meaning.
07:15:21 <farrioth> Or were you meaning it in its technical sense an an example of desirable ambiguity?
07:15:36 <Bike> the latter, yes
07:17:42 <Bike> how about, more fundamentally, names
07:18:01 <Bike> > map (\x -> x + x) [4,23]
07:18:01 <farrioth> Now, how does polymorphism map to NL ambiguity?
07:19:02 <Bike> maybe like "I ran to the store" versus "the horse run past the barn fell" versus "is your refrigerator running?"
07:19:15 <ais523> farrioth: I guess it's in the way that in a natural language, you can understand a sentence without understanding what it's about
07:19:40 <Bike> in this case 'run' being the 'polymorphic operator'.
07:19:43 <ais523> like, if a sentence contains a person's name and you don't recognise it
07:19:51 <farrioth> Bike: Yes, lexical ambiguiy, treating an operatior as equivalent to a lexeme.
07:19:52 <ais523> then you can still parse and understand the rest of the sentence
07:22:30 <farrioth> ais523: I don't know if I'd call that ambiguity. But I'm not sure what I'd call it, since it sits above the syntax-semantics interface.
07:23:04 <farrioth> ais523: In the example of not recognising a name.
07:23:32 <ais523> farrioth: well, it works like programming language polymorphism for me
07:23:46 <ais523> in a programming language, a polymorphic function can operate on data without knowing anything about its type
07:24:12 <kmc> hm what if gløgg : gløgge :: dog : doge
07:24:31 <farrioth> Bike: Treating polymorphic/overloaded operators as ambiguous, they are always disambiguated linguistically (not extra-linguistically), right?
07:25:42 <farrioth> ais523: I understad that a polymophic operator must know about type, but its operation is type-dependent. I could be wrong, though.
07:26:26 <farrioth> ais523: And in your example, which operator/lexeme is polymorphic/polysemous?
07:26:33 <ais523> map doesn't need to know anything about a or b, just about functions and lists
07:26:46 <ais523> farrioth: the entire sentence is polymorphic with respect to the name
07:26:47 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_lAFDbnMLA#t=40s -- "what did the doge do?"
07:27:01 <kmc> what does the doge say
07:27:22 <kmc> ok there are like 100 youtube videos with that name, surprise
07:28:00 <farrioth> ais523: Ah, you're talking about generics, right? I was thinking about overloaded operators.
07:28:24 <ais523> operator overloading's like the opposite of polymorphism, though
07:28:31 <ais523> an overloaded operator does different things with different arguments
07:28:39 <farrioth> Are generics really ambiguous, though?
07:29:04 <ais523> although, in my line of work, polymorphism tends to cause a lot of troubles
07:29:12 <ais523> I can't create a circuit to implement a program without knowing what types it works on
07:29:29 <farrioth> Assuming we are defining ambiguity as (non-trivial) context dependance in meaning/function, or something like that.
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07:34:47 <farrioth> So, thinking about the syntax of NL-like programming languages again, if L1 causes negative transfer (interferance) then we would expect it to also have the potential to cause positive transfer (learning advantages). I wonder if this is borne out for NL-like languages.
07:35:14 <farrioth> More importantly, I wonder if anyone's studied this.
07:38:53 <Bike> there's probably some managerial type research on cobol since it was a conscious factor in its design and all.
07:41:34 <zzo38> I think advantages are possible when trying to *read* the program, perhaps.
07:42:23 <farrioth> zzo38: For someone familiar with the language, or only for someone unfamiliar with it?
07:42:57 <farrioth> zzo38: Being, myself, not familiar enough with a NL-like language to answer that.
07:43:38 <farrioth> zzo38: I agree it is a possibility, but if such advantages exist, why don't they apply to writing too?
07:43:47 <zzo38> farrioth: For someone who is somewhat familiar with it, but not quite, I mean.
07:44:52 <farrioth> zzo38: There's probably an interaction between receptive/expressive use and positive/negative interference.
07:45:19 <farrioth> zzo38: But I'm not familiar enough with the acquisition literature to know if that is the case for NL.
07:47:53 <zzo38> I don't know about that either.
07:49:49 <kmc> shachaf: I read more of _Stories of Your Life and Others_
07:49:52 <kmc> good stuff
07:49:56 <kmc> I guess I'm on the last story now
07:50:01 <shachaf> what was even in that book
07:50:27 <shachaf> isn't the last story the one you already read
07:51:28 <farrioth> Incedentally, what NL-like programming languages exist? Inform 7, COBOL and derivatives, and AppleScript come to mind.
07:51:43 <ais523> Perligata, if you want an esolang
07:52:02 <zzo38> farrioth: I was thinking of a kind of "hybrid" system where the input looks like natural language kind of, with various extra marks too, and then when printed out, the marks mean different things and would print out like a natural language, with the correct bold and italics formatting and symbols and that stuff too.
07:52:15 <ais523> Perl itself was also intentionally designed on natural language principles
07:52:21 <zzo38> farrioth: I am not so familiar with COBOL but I could try to look up a bit
07:52:25 <ais523> it's probably more natural-language like than the other languages you mention
07:52:31 <kmc> this copy has an extra story I guess? "The Lifecycle of Software Objects"
07:52:32 <ais523> it just doesn't /look/ like one
07:52:55 <Bike> well, wall was a linguist, right.
07:53:02 <ais523> farrioth: Larry Wall, who invented Perl, was a linguist (as in, natural linguist)
07:53:06 <zzo38> Although I think COBOL is OK actually from what I can see
07:53:09 <ais523> and applied the same principles
07:53:24 <ais523> this is why Perl has an ambiguous grammar, and the parser sometimes has to guess, for instance
07:53:40 <kmc> i have written one COBOL program https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/1ca57f7a260c72d36d96
07:53:48 <shachaf> apparently it was published in 2010
07:53:48 <kmc> shachaf: i don't know I didn't read it yet!!
07:53:55 <kmc> your face was published in 2010
07:53:58 <zzo38> farrioth: It sounds confusing a bit, but... do you play Magic: the Gathering cards? It would help to understand my ideas about this thing I am mentioning
07:53:59 <farrioth> ais523: Surely it's the linguists who would first realise the pitfalls of NL-likeness? And that does explain why PERL is good at text processing and things that linguists actually want to do with a computer.
07:54:32 <Bike> of course, snobol was also designed for text processing and linguists and is pretty much nothing like natural language at all
07:54:32 <kmc> farrioth: then why does Perl have such poor support for syntax trees compared to, say Lisp?
07:54:43 <farrioth> zzo38: I played Magic years ago, but remember it a bit, except for all the new cards, obviously.
07:55:04 <shachaf> kmc: well obviously it was a deferred question to be answered after you read it!!
07:55:05 <Bike> kmc: still a good program after all these years
07:55:18 <ais523> kmc: you should see Perl 6's support for syntax trees
07:55:26 <ais523> it's some of the heftiest I've ever seen in a language
07:55:30 <farrioth> kmc: Minus the question mark, that is.
07:55:32 <ais523> some of it's making its way into Perl 5 libraries, too
07:55:38 <kmc> Perl seems like "hey awk and sed and shell are all useful, let's make a language that does all that"
07:55:43 <kmc> and nothing more principled than that
07:55:50 <kmc> Perl *is* still a really good awk/sed/shell replacement
07:55:51 <shachaf> i heard perl gets scoping right
07:55:53 <zzo38> farrioth: That is good enough, as long as you have seen how many newer cards (past Alpha or something) are often seeming to use a common syntax so they are worded in very similar ways.
07:55:58 <shachaf> better than, say, python or ruby
07:56:11 <shachaf> so maybe i should learn it
07:56:14 <ais523> Perl just lets you do what you like in terms of scope
07:56:20 <ais523> it has lexical scope and dynamic scope
07:56:27 <ais523> and the ability to inject things into other scopes
07:56:28 <Bike> snobol gets scoping right. it has no scoping. learn snobol
07:56:32 <ais523> all under user control
07:56:33 <zzo38> COBOL may be at approx. the correct "compromise" between programming and natural language, for its application, it seems like; especially from kmc's program it looks like that
07:56:40 <ais523> oh, and two different sorts of global
07:56:41 <farrioth> zzo38: Sort of, but some examples (pictures of cards?) would be nice.
07:56:54 <shachaf> mauke was being convincing about maybe i should learn perl
07:57:17 <ais523> (the very globalliest globals have names starting with a dollar followed by a control character, you normally type them as ${^Example} but you could use a literal control-E and omit the braces if you really wanted to)
07:57:24 <kmc> zzo38: but it's only "natural language" in that you have to write several long keywords instead of a curly brace
07:57:26 <shachaf> actually i don't think he was trying to convince anyone but maybe i'll do it anyway
07:57:27 <HackEgo> 2011-09-03 07:36:50: <mauke> when things would be ambiguous otherwise
07:57:30 <kmc> how is that an improvement on anything
07:57:34 <quintopia> i learned a little bit of perl. so many little symbols to know. so hard to read code.
07:57:57 <kmc> much symbols
07:58:01 <kmc> very punctuation
07:58:06 <Bike> i want a language based on machina carnis
07:58:07 <ais523> well, Perl tends to have good mnemonics for the weird punctuation combinations
07:58:16 <kmc> ais523: or there's that English module
07:58:19 <kmc> which just gives them good names
07:58:30 <ais523> kmc: I actually prefer the short names
07:58:35 <Bike> you may ask what the fuck, to which i respond, what your fuck
07:58:36 <ais523> $_ is basically just a pronoun
07:58:48 <ais523> a good English name for it would be close to $it
07:58:53 <kmc> how about $hit
07:59:07 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
07:59:17 <ais523> actually this explains why @_ is used for procedure argument
07:59:23 <zzo38> kmc: Well, things are easily enough to understand if you know some things about programming, even if not knowing the programming language; and yes the way that it is only "natural language" in the way you specified, is what I mean by a good way I think so. For example I can easily see what all the divisions mean, and could easily guess what "WITH NO ADVANCING" means.
07:59:25 <ais523> because its meaning is not too far from "them", and the @ indicates a plural
08:00:00 -!- Bike has joined.
08:00:02 <Bike> intriguing new research suggests i am a dumbass
08:00:42 <farrioth> ais523: Perl is starting to look more NLy than I thought.
08:00:50 <quintopia> @ made sense to me. cuz i used it to make @rrays
08:00:50 <zzo38> farrioth: You can look up pictures (or even just text) of cards pretty easily, but I can even just type some card texts here too.
08:01:07 <ais523> one good example is slicing arrays
08:01:26 <farrioth> zzo38: Give me some cards to look up, or type here, your preference.
08:01:26 <ais523> if I have an array, say @a, then if I take one element from it, I get $a[2], and if I take two, I get @a[2,3], for instance
08:01:31 <farrioth> zzo38: Or message me if they're long.
08:01:50 <kmc> zzo38: yes it's true, 'WITH NO ADVANCING' is more clear than e.g. a trailing comma in Python 2
08:01:51 <ais523> the sigil at the start reflects whether I'm producing a single or plural quantity
08:01:51 <zzo38> The card "Recuperate" says: Choose one--You gain 6 life; or prevent the next 6 damage that would be dealt to target creater this turn. The card "Drifting Meadow" has three abilities; the first is: Drifting Meadow comes into play tapped.
08:02:05 <kmc> zzo38: however I don't think one should optimize a language to be read by people who don't know the language
08:02:07 <ais523> it's not part of the array itself; Perl uses the square brackets to know that I mean an array @a rather than a scalar $a
08:02:24 <kmc> zzo38: there are some tradeoffs of course; the trailing comma in Python is also bad and special (and gone in Python 3)
08:02:25 * Bike applies what ais is saying to matlab in order to amuse himself
08:02:59 <zzo38> kmc: And in BASIC you use a trailing semicolon. And yes I agree with you in general that you don't think one should optimize a language to be read by people who don't know the language; I am simply saying there are such cases, and COBOL is one of them, due to its intended applications especially.
08:03:00 <ais523> Bike: I saw someone editing some Matlab code on Friday
08:03:05 <Bike> ais523: i'm sorry
08:03:11 <ais523> but originally assumed it was Objective C because of the file extension
08:03:24 <kmc> Objective Matlab++
08:03:25 <Bike> ais523: yeah emacs does that too
08:03:26 <Bike> quintopia: yes
08:03:38 <kmc> i love that Objective C++ is a real language supported by GCC and not an esolang joke
08:03:55 <zzo38> farrioth: The phrase "comes into play tapped" can be considered a phrase by the parser; the card name could be entered "~" and treated as a phrase by the parser too, while the prettyprinter can expand it to the card's name.
08:03:56 <quintopia> oh okay. well i like it as a language. it's great for doing linalg
08:04:33 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:04:33 <Bike> it's got a good ide and it has useful linalg features i haven't seen elsewhere but i hate everything else about it.
08:04:41 <ais523> anyway, lots of people get confused by what the sigils mean in Perl
08:04:58 <farrioth> zzo38: I see. Remind me what the relevance of this is though? I've forgotten.
08:05:02 <ais523> especially because most tutorials start off with "$ means scalar, @ means array", and then people assume they should use @ to refer to an array if they're indexing it
08:05:14 <ais523> so the natural-language-likeness of it is simply just confusing
08:05:25 <Bike> like a real natural language!
08:05:30 <ais523> farrioth: I think zzo38 considers Magic card text to be a programming language
08:05:42 <zzo38> farrioth: You can do an "almost natural language", is what I mean
08:05:48 <ais523> it's pretty close already (and has only become more so because of Magic Online)
08:05:50 <farrioth> ais523: To program Magic players?
08:06:22 <shachaf> who can tell me things about that one category where objects are categories and arrows are adjunctions
08:06:29 <farrioth> zzo38: As in, Magic cards are NL-like, but arguably not really NL because they are formulaic?
08:06:36 <kmc> since it's a game it's more like a protocol language than a programming language?
08:06:47 <quintopia> farrioth: that does seem to be the way the TM works. of course, the hard part is leaving all the players with only one possible move so that they have to cooperate.
08:06:52 <kmc> other formulaic NL text: laws & contracts; math papers
08:06:56 <Bike> it will be a sad day when i know anything about magic
08:07:02 <ais523> also, there's that proof that Magic is Turing-complete
08:07:08 <zzo38> farrioth: Something like that, yes. Not *exactly*, which is why I think such a "hybrid" approach is better
08:07:30 <ais523> although the current setup requires all players to do something other than nothing when the game gives them a choice
08:07:43 <farrioth> zzo38: What are you approaching?
08:07:55 <kmc> the periphery shield of vortex four
08:08:10 <zzo38> Take an approach which allows entry in a way somewhat better for programming it while still working well for displaying too; for example, text in parentheses is a comment printed in italics (the parentheses are printed too); text in square brackets is a comment but is printed as is except the brackets are omitted; text in [- ... -] is Haskell code which isn't printed; ~ is printed as the card name; =s after a word is a plural; etc
08:08:17 <ais523> farrioth: http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html
08:08:33 <quintopia> ais523: do you expect it is possible to remove the "do nothing" option from every single turn?
08:08:45 <ais523> I had a small contribution to that (pointing out that an older version of the setup was wrong due to confusion caused by Wolfram propaganda)
08:08:53 <ais523> quintopia: that's the major unsolved problem atm
08:09:00 <ais523> I think it may be possible, but it'd require a different setup
08:09:11 <shachaf> it is a v. popular game at my current workplace
08:09:11 <zzo38> (You would only use =s at the end for plurals of subtypes (rather than keywords), so something like "Desrtoy all Cat=s." instead of "Destroy all Cats."
08:09:19 <ais523> basically the problem is that there are so few phasing-related cards, and it's quite hard to replace phasing in the setup
08:09:25 <Bike> my dad wanted me to read a contract based on "you're a mathy guy" or somesuch
08:09:26 <shachaf> so i have played it a little bit and i even have, uh, a few hundred cards or something
08:09:33 <zzo38> (But, "Draw 3 cards." (not "Draw 3 card=s.").)
08:09:33 <Bike> my dad is an authority on all matters, so kmc is right
08:09:44 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if zzo38 would like grammartree
08:11:04 <farrioth> zzo38: What is the application of such a language?
08:11:51 <zzo38> farrioth: In order to create Magic: the Gathering cards, so that you can both generate the pictures of the cards (such as to print out) and to run them on a computer program.
08:11:56 <ais523> quintopia: oh right, the main complication is that all the currently known cards that force spells to be cast with no decisions by anyone trigger at particular points in a turn
08:12:05 <ais523> meaning that you can't set everything up entirely in one turn
08:12:14 <ais523> unless you know of a way to produce infinitely many upkeep steps?
08:12:37 <farrioth> zzo38: Ah, that makes sense. But if they're so formulaic already, why not just make a parser which can understand them?
08:12:56 <farrioth> zzo38: Perhaps with extensions to allow you to describe difficult-to-parse cards.
08:13:05 <Bike> you know what's really annoying. when you're reading a book and there's a typo of an open bracket or something so the whole rest of the book is quoted
08:14:31 <zzo38> farrioth: There are things like using ~ for "this card" and stuff too, and to make the parsing work more simplified and working better; there are those and other reasons why I think it would be improvement to *not* enter them as "pure natural language" but rather to *almost* do it.
08:14:55 <zzo38> (Anyways, using ~ in such a way is already common when entering card texts)
08:15:15 <ais523> zzo38: I think Wizards write it as "CARDNAME" internally
08:15:42 <farrioth> zzo38: Sure, but a parser doesn't need to care about the difference between "~" and "this card".
08:15:47 <zzo38> ais523: Yes and it can be programmed to support that too (or instead) if done
08:16:16 <kmc> there should be an esolang named Heptapod B
08:16:21 <ais523> farrioth: well, "this card" doesn't work, because then the card would stop working if someone made a token copy of it
08:16:22 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:16:30 <zzo38> farrioth: Wrong. Both the parser and the printer need to care. The printer so that it can display the card's name properly, and the parser in case it is in a quoted ability.
08:16:30 <ais523> it'd have to be "this permanent" (or the appropriate for abilities that trigger in other zones)
08:16:57 <Bike> oh, hey, kmc's reading /that/
08:17:10 <kmc> Bike: well I read that story a while ago, but it's in a book with some others
08:17:20 <kmc> some of which I read today
08:17:21 <farrioth> ais523: Could you explain, please?
08:17:24 <Bike> well i hven't remembered it anyway
08:17:37 <ais523> farrioth: it's just a rules technicality: a token isn't a card
08:17:40 <Bike> wow that wasn't even a coherent thought
08:17:41 <zzo38> ais523: Actually I think the rules specify that in such cases it does actually still work
08:17:43 <farrioth> zzo38: But it doesn't matter what name you give the token.
08:18:00 <ais523> zzo38: huh, really? if so then it's a specific weird special case
08:18:04 <farrioth> ais523: Oh, tokens have a meaning in Magic. That's right.
08:18:07 <shachaf> kmc: today i wore a wristband with some text on it
08:18:21 <shachaf> i read the text out loud and then said "would be a good name for a band"
08:18:33 <zzo38> It doesn't mean it has to be a card. In the example syntax I gave you could even enter it as "this [card]" rather than "this card" if you *do* need literally "this card" on the card, then it would make the parser easier and more sensible.
08:18:36 <kmc> but was it?
08:18:55 <shachaf> it was kind of long and awkward
08:19:17 <shachaf> also i said it to Gracenotes so ask him
08:19:44 <kmc> i liked the part in the one story where gur xnoonyvfg thl vairagf gur l pbzovangbe
08:20:20 <shachaf> hmm i only vaguely remember that story
08:20:26 <ais523> zzo38: btw, you might be interested in http://www.toothycat.net/wiki/bnf.pl?page=AlexChurchill/MagicCardGenerator , which works using a parser for Magic card text; it runs the parser /backwards/ to produce legal cards
08:20:49 <ais523> often not very sensible ones, though
08:21:42 <zzo38> For example: Enchanted permanent gains "{T}: Destroy ~." Therefore the ~ should be treated as the timestamp of the card it is printed on at the time when the effect containing the ~ is used, it will make ~ into that card's timestamp.
08:22:04 <farrioth> "tap up to four target permanents and tap those permanents"
08:22:18 <ais523> anyway, I liked the discussion before it got derailed by Magic
08:22:55 <Bike> jesus christ yes nerds
08:23:14 <farrioth> I wonder if var'aq is considered natrualistic.
08:23:25 <ais523> anyway, I can't think of any programming language more natural-language-like than Perl, in terms of semantics rather than syntax
08:23:34 <ais523> except Perligata, which puts natural language syntax onto Perl
08:23:37 <zzo38> Yes, you also should parse phrases like "up to <number>" and "those" and so on.
08:23:41 <ais523> in addition to matching the grammatical behaviour up
08:23:55 <shachaf> ais523: Perligata isn't more natural-language-like than Perl, in terms of semantics rather than syntax.
08:24:03 <Bike> "To assign a value to a variable you must first push the value, then the name of the variable onto the stack. To push the name of a variable instead of its value, the spec tells you to use lI'moH operator. The cher operator can then be used to bind the value to the variable name." eh
08:24:09 <ais523> shachaf: right, it's mostly just syntax
08:24:23 <Bike> very disappointed that this artigcle isn't written in klingon
08:24:23 <ais523> Bike: like Underload but with pointers?
08:24:42 <ais523> "Humanity confuses more destructively than the awesome language"
08:24:56 <ais523> huh, MagicCardGenerator produced insightful and ontopic flavour text
08:25:41 <farrioth> ais523: Perhaps PERL is quite NL-like in terms of semantics. Interesting, as I was thinking only about syntax (and lexicon, I suppose) to begin with.
08:26:12 <HackEgo> 152) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
08:26:16 <farrioth> ais523: Which raises the question of how many of the languages mentioned are really naturalistic syntactically rather than just lexically.
08:27:09 <ais523> I think the experience of Perl shows that people tend to dislike naturalistics in their programming languages
08:27:25 <farrioth> ais523: Wait, was that actually flavour text? You had me thinking it was from the var'aq page. We should probably add it in.
08:27:26 <zzo38> As it turns out I also wrote a program to make up random Magic: the Gathering card texts, although very incomplete
08:27:28 <shachaf> I'd rather play Sandwich: The Card Game.
08:27:43 <ais523> farrioth: it was flavour text generated by that random magic card generator
08:27:46 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 683) <Phantom_Hoover> There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. <Phantom_Hoover> At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose.
08:28:02 <Bike> how many octopus quotes do we have
08:28:05 <Bike> `quote octopus
08:28:07 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m
08:28:09 <kmc> http://videogamena.me/
08:28:16 <Bike> `run quote octopus | shuf
08:28:18 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m
08:28:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27447
08:28:24 <farrioth> ais523: What was the name of the card it went with?
08:28:26 <Bike> two. well, almost acceptable
08:28:40 <ais523> farrioth: there wasn't one, it doesn't generate names
08:28:46 <shachaf> I would also like to play Professional Octopus of the World.
08:28:49 <Bike> i shall make a note to talk about octopuses at least once a day
08:28:51 <ais523> I forgot to copy-paste the attribution
08:29:05 <shachaf> zzo38: Has anyone invented either of those games yet?
08:29:12 <Bike> so: what's the deal with being smart even though they don't use myelination??
08:29:33 <ais523> Bike: they have really really thick nerves to compensate
08:29:42 <ais523> like, they're measured in centimetres
08:29:51 <ais523> a centimetre-wide cell is mindboggling
08:30:01 <Bike> nobody tell ais about slime mold.
08:30:11 <Bike> squid giant axons are 1 mm, though.
08:30:15 <Bike> dunno what you're thinking of
08:30:22 <ais523> "this slime mold juice is delicious!"
08:30:30 <ais523> Bike: probably I was just off by an order of magnitude
08:30:38 <Bike> great, now i'm actually wondering what cytoplasm tastes like
08:30:49 <Bike> probably not very good, generally
08:31:01 <ais523> it probably tastes much like water
08:31:06 <ais523> because it mostly is water
08:31:20 <ais523> if you blend pretty much any organic material, there's going to be cytoplasm in there
08:31:22 <Bike> some cells are pretty much more proteins than water.
08:31:28 <ais523> but it's not the main contributing factor to the taste
08:31:33 <Bike> you get weird hydrodynamics.
08:31:37 <ais523> also, protein tastes of protein
08:32:06 <shachaf> what was my nethack fruit called, anyway
08:32:07 <Bike> maybe i'll just down some blood plasma
08:32:18 <Bike> mine was 'schizocarp', ia m the opposite of creative
08:32:39 <ais523> oh, beautiful: this random card costs 4, flips into a 1/1 when there are at least 2 lands in play, and gives itself +1/-1
08:32:45 <ais523> good luck trying to use /that/ thing
08:32:51 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think someone invented those game and I don't really intend
08:33:10 <ais523> shachaf: I use "avocado" locally, just because I wanted a real fruit that probably wasn't in the game already
08:33:14 <ais523> I don't think I've ever eaten one
08:33:19 <ais523> normally I just leave it at the default online, though
08:33:29 -!- constant has changed nick to variable.
08:34:00 <Bike> hm mauthner cells are also huge but fish are vertebrates. how vexing
08:34:56 <ais523> now I'm wondering if there are any organisms with bones but not backbones
08:35:39 <Bike> no. backbones evolved before bones.
08:35:49 <Bike> assuming you don't count things like cuttlebones.
08:36:25 <Bike> 'bone' could mean any number of things, i suppose~
08:37:12 <ais523> quintopia: one specific fruit
08:37:15 <ais523> has a customizable name
08:37:32 <ais523> it's normally just called "fruit" when people are talking about it, or sometimes "slime mold" after the default value
08:40:39 <ais523> btw, a while back I was working on a natural language deparser in order to make NetHack produce better messages
08:40:53 <ais523> as in, it did substitutions at the natural language parse tree level, rather than the textual level
08:41:04 <ais523> and add in pronouns, etc.
08:41:14 <ais523> but it was never finished, and we temporarily abandoned it so that we could get actual work done
08:42:05 <farrioth> ais523: Do you have the code around still?
08:42:33 <mroman> farrioth: How's your interpreter coming along?
08:42:58 <ais523> farrioth: https://gitorious.org/nitrohack/ais523/source/36824d7535d3ac7614875de4ec7559358d1860b1:libnethack_intl
08:43:22 <ais523> although note that we think there may be problems in the model of natural language it uses
08:43:34 <ais523> in fact, it sort-of collapsed into design-by-committee as to what those should be
08:44:08 <ais523> farrioth: also there's some documentation in https://gitorious.org/nitrohack/ais523/source/36824d7535d3ac7614875de4ec7559358d1860b1:doc/grammar.txt
08:44:21 <quintopia> ais523: so the idea would be to store language models for each language? and then construct the messages from the tree after substitution? and hope the model is good enough the result comes out grammatically correct?
08:44:32 <ais523> quintopia: that's it, basically
08:44:57 <farrioth> mroman: I have most of a Tape class and a DistortionMap class, but haven't done any work since yesterday since I had food poisoning. I do plan to work on it more, though.
08:44:59 <ais523> the tree used tokens to represent words, which were mostly the same as the word in English, except that if there were two homographs in English they'd have different tokens in grammartree
08:45:11 <farrioth> ais523: Thanks, I'll take a look some time.
08:45:50 <quintopia> ais523: grammartree? is this the thing you were above wondering if zzo38 would like?
08:45:54 <ais523> it was illuminating learning about the special cases in English
08:46:17 <ais523> also, I wasn't planning to cover all of English
08:46:21 <ais523> just the subset that NetHack uses
08:46:24 <farrioth> mroman: I though about re-implementing it in R since the inherent vectorisation would make applying distortion easier, but decided I don't know R well enough to do that sort of thing in it at present.
08:47:00 <quintopia> farrioth: also letting it be in python means i can create a module for it for my upcoming universal IDE :D :D: D
08:48:16 <farrioth> quintopia: How is your said universal IDE coming along?
08:49:07 <quintopia> farrioth: well it's mainly to help me learn python and tk. i have figured out how to do menu of the things i need it to do already, though i am not sure about the current problem i'm trying to solve
08:49:54 <farrioth> quintopia: What is the current problem? And why TK, by the way?
08:50:58 <quintopia> farrioth: those two questions should not be answered concurrently as they are very different discussions
08:51:04 <quintopia> farrioth: which do you want to start with
08:54:21 <farrioth> quintopia: Let's start with the current problem.
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08:54:44 <farrioth> quintopia: And I should mention that I'm currently cooking, so may respond slowly.
08:59:00 <quintopia> farrioth: let's say that every language stores its UI and interpreter in a module which defines a class (implementing a specific abstract class), and all these modules are just stored in some folder. without any further config files, i want the IDE to be load these modules as needed in association with source files of the language they are for.
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08:59:44 <quintopia> i have read about using __import__, but i'm not sure what i should do to make sure I am keeping around an instance of the class loaded from the module
09:00:04 <quintopia> how do you get an instance of a class you don't know the name of until you have loaded the module?
09:01:00 <quintopia> i suppose since i know the abstract class it implemented, i could find a class definition in the loaded namespace that claims to inherit from that class?
09:02:06 <quintopia> or should i eschew __import__ and use execfile instead, creating a namespace for the exec'd file from the info about the IDE it needs?
09:02:36 <quintopia> but the latter may introduce problems with destruction of the classes so loaded, and so i go in circles
09:05:42 <farrioth> quintopia: What are the classes defined in each module being used for? Do they define the UI and interpreter?
09:07:41 <farrioth> quintopia: Just give them generic names like UI and Interpreter, you won't get a conflict assuming that you're only using one language at a time.
09:07:58 <farrioth> quintopia: Or, if using multiple languages, they will be in different instances.
09:08:42 <quintopia> because yes it will be possible to have several different language types loaded at once
09:10:53 <farrioth> quintopia: You will have multiple editors or whatever, one for each language, and can set the active language individually for each editor.
09:10:54 <mroman> Recently lots of people have food poisoning o_O
09:15:06 <quintopia> farrioth: but i won't know there is a module named befunge
09:15:26 <farrioth> quintopia: or UI = befunge.UI() if you want to make an instance of it.
09:15:48 <quintopia> farrioth: it will look more like: for all i,files in enumerate(folder): ns[i] = __import(file)__
09:16:19 <quintopia> how do i create an instance in my namespace from something defined in another namespace?
09:17:11 <farrioth> quintopia: Oh, I misunderstood you, I assumed that you didn't know that you needed a module called befunge, not that a module called befunge existed.
09:20:09 <quintopia> also i misplaced some underscores there whoops
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09:27:13 <farrioth> quintopia: I would have used exec("import %s"%i) but that might be considered improper.
09:28:26 <farrioth> quintopia: But presumably you'll only use a language module on filetype identification or when a user requests it, so there's no point importing them on enumeration.
09:29:05 <quintopia> farrioth: but i was thinking of enumerating them to extract the filetype/module associations
09:29:18 <quintopia> so i know what filetypes i support
09:31:54 <Taneb> I've actually got a Nigerian Finance Minister spam
09:32:55 <farrioth> quintopia: I would have just stored that information separately, but that does mean you have to maintain a central list of them.
09:33:37 <farrioth> quintopia: You could make a function which enumerates everything and writes a file containing filetype associations, so that you only have to enumerate when a new language module is added.
09:39:08 <quintopia> Taneb: bite the hook. coax a picture out of them.
09:39:17 <Taneb> quintopia, can't be bothered
09:40:54 <quintopia> farrioth: yes that is doable, but i'm still iterating the files to find one newer than the associations file every time i start. would it be all that faster than just rebuilding the table each time?
09:43:05 <farrioth> quintopia: I was thinking to only rebuild the table when requested.
09:43:49 <farrioth> quintopia: Plus you wouldn't have to do a complete rebuild, only add in the new definitions, so it probably would be faster, but perhaps only marginally.
09:44:03 <farrioth> quintopia: How many languages do you have defined so far / expect to have defined?
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10:19:30 <farrioth> Natural language programming at its best/worst: http://system-english.com/?page=sepapers
10:24:33 <mroman> There's already lolcode
10:24:43 <mroman> that's practically natural language programming
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10:27:05 <farrioth> It probably actually qualifies as much as COBOL or AppleScript, except for its limited number of instructions.
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10:36:01 <farrioth> quintopia: Personally, as a user, I'd prefer to call Update Language Definitions if/when I install a new language module, rather than have it re-enumerate every startup, but checking for new modules on startup and updating file associations then wouldn't be too bad, especially if it's done in the background.
10:37:15 <farrioth> quintopia: Or you could update the definitions if the IDE loads a file it doesn't recognise, since that is probably something a user will do soon after installing a new language.
10:37:28 <farrioth> quintopia: With an option to manually update definitions too.
10:37:31 <quintopia> farrioth: oh nice i like that idea
10:37:48 <farrioth> quintopia: If you weren't lazy you'd make it configurable, of course.
10:39:01 <quintopia> farrioth: you mean the file association is configurable? that's easy. since each module defines what file extension it wants, if you want to configure them, just modify the line of the associated module, and manually update definitions!
10:39:45 <farrioth> quintopia: No, I mean the user can choose whether the definitions get checked/updated every startup or not.
10:40:28 <quintopia> farrioth: oh yeah i'm probably too lazy for that :P
10:41:43 <quintopia> so i just realized the MTGTM page has a whole page dedicated to how all credit for anything creative anyone does actually goes to God. so...FUCK ALEX CHURCHILL. THANK GOD FOR THE MTG TM!
10:41:50 <farrioth> if config.update_defs: update_defs()
10:42:16 <quintopia> but i'm NOT MAKING A DAMN CONFIGURATION UI
10:43:00 <farrioth> Just have your config file be a python module which gets imported. Not secure, but that isn't a problem in this case.
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11:22:40 <quintopia> "perl -pe 's/^(.*)$/\L$& \U$&/g'" is there a shorter way to capitalize a string in a shell command
11:24:28 <ais523> hmm… what about "perl -000 -e 'print uc <>'"
11:24:32 <ais523> I think that's shorter; does it work?
11:24:41 <ais523> alternatively, tr a-z A-Z
11:24:48 <ais523> although that one isn't Unicode-aware
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11:47:19 <farrioth> I'm off to bed, see you all around.
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12:21:09 <HackEgo> Vorpal: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:37:43 <quintopia> anticipation error hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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15:29:41 <quintopia> what are the prerequisites to know before reading the homotopy type theory book?
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16:00:46 <FreeFull> quintopia: Just start reading it, and if there is anything you don't know, research it
16:03:42 <nooodl> i guess "topology" and "type theory" will come up quite a bit
16:05:44 <FreeFull> The first chapter is completely about just type theory
16:06:09 <FreeFull> Being familiar with dependent types is useful
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19:10:03 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/FbEzLiL.jpg
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19:26:51 <ion> http://venturebeat.com/2013/12/13/youtubes-out-of-control-content-id-system-even-flagged-jonathan-blow-for-posting-footage-of-his-own-game/
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20:44:16 <quintopia> ion: that link just put dolphin browser into an infinite url-loading loop. i didn't even know that was possible.
20:45:19 <ion> Sounds like quality software.
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20:47:18 <quintopia> it is actually. this is the first time i've seen a bug like this in the three years i've used it
20:49:04 <olsner> did they forget to limit redirect loops or something?
20:51:16 <mroman> quintopia: It's possible to create redirect loops
20:51:53 <mroman> it's browsers who should limit them :)
20:54:02 <quintopia> mroman: but the link above presumably worked for ion and vorpal, so i doubt that's what's going on
20:55:46 <olsner> they probably didn't use dolphin
20:56:53 <quintopia> yes but what happens when a redirect is limited?
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20:59:09 <olsner> loading finishes with an error page, usually
21:00:59 <quintopia> i don't think they got an error page
21:01:02 <int-e> well, besides 301 and friends it could also be a http refresh with a small delay, or some javascript setting window.location.
21:01:59 <quintopia> int-e: wouldn't the browser have to at least rate limit those as well?
21:02:57 <int-e> maybe. I'm not ready to pass judgement on that ;)
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21:12:56 <mroman> quintopia: are they using dolphin too?
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22:33:11 <zzo38> Someone has made up an extension of TeX for supporting multiple kind of marks on a page rather than just one kind, but I have made up a way to do it without using those extensions. In fact a large number of things can be done without any extensions.
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23:40:27 <zzo38> I am currently typing the Dungeons&Dragons game according to I played it yesterday
23:46:12 <zzo38> I just type it manually
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23:53:20 <HackEgo> danddreclist 46: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
23:54:43 <zzo38> Do you know the *real* reason why Kjugobe doesn't want the door for the prison cell opened? (It isn't to prevent him from escaping. He already cannot escape.)
23:55:14 <oerjan> maybe he smells _real_ badly.
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23:55:39 <zzo38> oerjan: No. There are bars; it isn't a plain door but rather bars so the smell would still come through.
23:56:02 <oerjan> hm i guess that takes care of my second guess of fire breath as well.
23:57:14 <zzo38> The prisoner is human and is also in a coma, so even if he has fire he cannot easily use it.
23:57:46 <quintopia> what would happen if the door were opened?
23:58:34 <zzo38> It would not affect the prisoner or cause damage to the ship if it were opened? Can you try to figure out why I didn't want it opened?
23:58:56 <zzo38> I can tell you if you don't know.
23:59:49 <zzo38> I am pretty sure it is *not* a trap, actually, but that has nothing to do with it either.
00:00:24 <FreeFull> The door was actualyl rusted shut
00:00:57 <zzo38> FreeFull: No. (Well, maybe it is; I haven't tried. But that isn't the reason.)
00:01:45 <quintopia> FreeFull: he said kjugobe doesn't WANT it opened, not that it can't be opened.
00:01:45 <zzo38> The reason I don't want it open is that if whoever has the key is asked to open the door, due to whatever is happening, it may easily interfere with the schedules of this ship (a merchant ship) arriving and departing at certain areas.
00:02:19 <quintopia> zzo38: who would have guessed that. no one.
00:02:37 <zzo38> quintopia: Maybe if you read it, someone might have guessed?
00:03:15 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure no one else would have guessed on the basis of me reading
00:03:15 <zzo38> So the reason has nothing to do with the door itself (other than the fact that it is locked and I don't have the key).
00:03:57 <zzo38> But I have a way to get in anyways, despite teleportation not being allowed into and out of the cell.
00:04:08 <zzo38> And I have this rope and sanding block I can use in there too.
00:06:08 <zzo38> The prisoner's name is Shadowsteel, I think. I have almost completely broken his concentration, I think.
00:07:44 <zzo38> Anyways if you can read the entire story and still don't understand, then maybe you aren't good enough at this game?
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00:35:14 <zzo38> quintopia: What does that mean?
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00:51:57 <HackEgo> #! /usr/bin/env perl \ ($n,$e)=split /\s+/, join(" ",@ARGV); $n=~s/ *$//; $c="ls -r /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt"; $c.=" | head -n 30" unless $e eq "ever"; @f=split /\s+/, `$c`; for $f (@f) { open F,"<$f"; @l=grep(/^..:..:..: <$n>/i,<F>); close F; if (@l) { $b=$f; $b=~s#.*/(.*?).txt#$1#; print "$b $l[-1]"; exit 1; } } print $e eq "ever
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01:01:22 <shachaf> should co(cartesian closed) be called cocartesian coclosed or coclosed cocartesian
01:01:53 <Bike> the dual of a cartesian closed space
01:02:18 <shachaf> help what's a cartesian closed space
01:02:29 <Bike> category whatever
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02:07:07 <int-e> b_jonas: https://github.com/int-e/zeckendorf now deals with trailing zeros and has truncating subtraction for zeckendorf numbers (e.g. [] - [1] = [])
02:15:41 <kmc> can we talk about dorps instead
02:15:46 <kmc> like nieuw dorp
02:22:07 <Phantom_Hoover> that's the only dorp, except for a south african musical group based in london
02:22:39 <kmc> guess there's no oud dorp
02:22:59 <kmc> several nieuw dorps but which one is the nieuwest
02:24:55 <oerjan> the one that isn't built yet
02:25:46 <LinearInterpol> http://np.reddit.com/r/Physics/comments/1svri5/ive_solved_the_theory_of_everything_try_and_prove/ce1pd2n
02:26:01 <quintopia> int-e: does NegaZeckendorf just use -1,-2,-3 etc.
02:26:30 <quintopia> from the title it looks like a stellar example of fractured ceramics
02:26:42 <Bike> it appears to be garbage, LinearInterpol
02:26:54 <int-e> quintopia: 1 -1 2 -3 5 -8 13 etc; the signs alternate. (or, more easily, you use the fibonacci numbers with negative indices, F_{-1},F_{-2},...)
02:26:59 <Phantom_Hoover> LinearInterpol, that's precisely the response i'd expect from oko, see
02:28:11 <quintopia> int-e: that would have been my second guess
02:28:40 -!- kmc has set topic: [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat | But I see you on the other side? | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
02:29:02 <oerjan> oklofok: LinearInterpol doesn't know who you are!
02:29:33 <shachaf> > [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat
02:29:34 <lambdabot> [Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Jus...
02:29:49 <oklofok> "<ais523> I don't think I've ever eaten one" you've never eaten an avocado? you should they're awesome
02:29:51 <Bike> 17 is beyond our reach
02:30:27 <oerjan> <LinearInterpol> the actual fuck is this. <-- standard 5.5 f crank, tin covered
02:30:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, why are you pretending to be LinearInterpol pretending to not be you
02:32:04 <oerjan> (cranks always use imperial, being mainly us engineers)
02:33:12 <quintopia> LinearInterpol: why are you now pretending to be not oklofok who is pretending to be oklofok
02:33:52 * oklofok is leaving to france in a few hours
02:33:54 <oerjan> no you cannot, i'll ban you on the fifth iteration or so
02:34:43 <quintopia> LinearInterpol: i will hex you to read all further instances of the word "cannot" as "carrot"
02:34:44 <oerjan> oklofok: bon voyage, Mr. Oskari
02:36:37 <oerjan> if only boily were here to warn him
02:37:08 <oerjan> quintopia: precisely what's needed to scare some sense into him!
02:37:20 <quintopia> oerjan: it does sound right dreadful
02:37:33 <oklofok> i speak spanish well enough to buy beer, pizza and pants though
02:37:51 <oklofok> i'm going to talk about some stuff we did in chile last week
02:38:37 <oklofok> we did some percolation theory stuff and just after i send the abstract to france, we found out that the guy whose book we had been using published an article about the exact same thing
02:38:49 <quintopia> por qué la cervez in mi pantalones
02:38:50 <kmc> donde están mis pantalones
02:39:00 <oklofok> (i don't know if he has all our results, but probably he has most of them)
02:39:11 <oklofok> i'm being paid by the university people
02:39:17 <quintopia> well i guess its an idea whose time has come
02:39:19 <oklofok> this thing http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/nathalie.aubrun/DySyCo.html#program
02:39:36 <zzo38> Do you have a spell to make caster refuse to visit France? (it is one of the spells in ifMUD, I think)
02:40:15 <oklofok> unfortunately my mana pool is empty
02:40:31 <Phantom_Hoover> what would even be the point of that, if i don't want to go to france i can do that without a spell
02:40:53 <oklofok> quintopia: everyone in the CA community is suddenly doing some sort of probabilistic stuff
02:41:14 <oerjan> oklofok: a highly unlikely coincidence!
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02:42:07 <oklofok> may have to do with the fact that lots of people in the CA community (not me) seem to think that there are not that many new things to do
02:42:17 <Bike> "Characterizing complexity and computability classes with polynomial ordinary differential equations." oh hey, neat.
02:42:43 <Bike> it's in the link, yeah.
02:43:15 <Bike> i've seen a few papers on it, i don't remember if bournez was on them
02:43:49 <Bike> he has four different cvs
02:44:10 <Bike> oh, yeah, he did. write papers i've read probably i mean
02:44:30 <Bike> "Computability and computational complexity of the evolution of nonlinear dynamical systems" "Computation with perturbed dynamical systems" etc etc
02:44:50 <oklofok> omg our reading someone's paper / cotalking in a conference distance is at most 2.
02:45:31 <quintopia> does anyone know off the top of their heads the computational complexity of the problem "does there exist a planar embedding of G with at most k edge crossings?"
02:46:09 <Bike> well i just think they're kind of neat. i looked up an obscure paper of shannon's in a real physical library because of them
02:47:25 <oklofok> quintopia: sounds like a very basic question in parametrized complexity
02:47:55 <oklofok> (i have no idea what the answer is)
02:48:33 <oklofok> okay maybe the planar makes it very possible that there's no paper on this
02:49:18 <oklofok> also my answer probably requires that the problem of checking whether there's an embedding with at most k crossings is np-hard if k is given as input
02:49:38 <oklofok> which i don't actually know
02:51:52 <oklofok> "<oerjan> oklofok: bon voyage, Mr. Oskari" btw you're right
02:56:04 <oerjan> i am one of the few people of my age in the family not to have a middle name, i think.
02:56:20 <shachaf> oopse i looked at reddit.com/r/haskell again
02:56:44 <shachaf> at least this particular monad tutorial is at a negative score so i guess i can't complain about it saying wrong things
02:57:03 <oerjan> shachaf: just read the 24 days posts hth
02:57:26 <shachaf> oerjan: do you still have that hth disabler script thing
02:57:49 <kmc> /r/monadtutorials
02:58:25 <shachaf> i like how this section is called "definiton"
02:59:42 <int-e> b_jonas: and now there's even a bunch of comments. I think that's it for this year.
03:00:01 <oerjan> definitons, the force carriers of the strong monadic action
03:00:35 <HackEgo> 2013-12-14 23:08:46: <b_jonas> nope, http://caniuse.com/ doesn't mentino these
03:00:49 <oerjan> the mentino is another rarely mentioned particle
03:02:32 <int-e> @tell b_jonas I've extended https://github.com/int-e/zeckendorf to deal with trailing zeros, subtracting a larger from a smaller number (which will result in 0 for Zeckendorf numbers) and a bunch of comments. Enjoy!
03:03:36 <shachaf> oerjan: you should disable the hth disabler script
03:03:41 <shachaf> oerjan: i miss the hthful days
03:06:09 <quintopia> oklofok: but there are efficient approximation algorithms for graphs of bounded degree
03:07:50 <oklofok> is https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~plragde/papers/hlayer_ESA.ps related
03:09:22 <quintopia> http://dist.ist.tugraz.at/cape5/why.html
03:09:41 <kmc> how does one disable hths
03:11:25 <shachaf> i think elliott wrote a script
03:12:14 <oklofok> okay gtg, love you guys lol tihihi <3
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03:15:07 <shachaf> "The only known results are that the free Heyting algebra on one generator is infinite, and that the free complete Heyting algebra on one generator exists (and has one more element than the free Heyting algebra)."
03:26:02 <oerjan> known results about what
03:26:24 <shachaf> @google "has one more element than the free Heyting algebra"
03:26:25 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_problem_(mathematics)
03:26:25 <lambdabot> Title: Word problem (mathematics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
03:26:35 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_problem_(mathematics)
03:27:37 <shachaf> i guess saying an infinite things has one more element than another infinite things can make sense when the things are more interesting than sets
03:28:50 <shachaf> oerjan: btw you know how if you take a discrete space and then add one more element which isn't in any open set (not even the set of everything) then you get a thing which is like a pointed set
03:29:13 <shachaf> (and you keep the usual definition of continuity and so on of course)
03:29:39 <shachaf> or you can add an element which is in every set, even the "empty" one
03:29:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i assume it means "has one element that isn't in the free heyting algebra"
03:31:17 <oerjan> shachaf: i am not sure i know, unless you are talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandroff_extension
03:31:57 <shachaf> since the thing i'm talking about isn't a topological space
03:32:34 <shachaf> i just mean, you know how a space is (X,{{},X,...open sets...})
03:33:05 <shachaf> that's the same alexandrov as an alexandrov topology i guess
03:34:35 <shachaf> i'll just bug someone else instead
03:34:41 <shachaf> or maybe i shouldn't be bugging people, hmm
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03:47:50 <jconn> oerjan: |value error: i
03:47:50 <jconn> oerjan: | 1 i 10*1 i 10
03:48:20 <jconn> oerjan: |value error: i
03:48:45 <oerjan> j would be so much cooler if you could remember the functions
03:48:49 <jconn> shachaf: |value error: i
03:49:00 <jconn> oerjan: |value error: i
03:49:06 <jconn> oerjan: |value error: u
03:49:16 <shachaf> is that supposed to be iota
03:49:28 <jconn> oerjan: |value error: iota
03:49:29 <jconn> oerjan: | 1 iota 10
03:49:42 <jconn> shachaf: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
03:50:11 <jconn> shachaf: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
03:50:17 <jconn> shachaf: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
03:50:18 <jconn> oerjan: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
03:50:47 <Bike> i don't understand anything.
03:50:55 <jconn> int-e: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
03:51:00 <jconn> oerjan: 0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81
03:51:27 <shachaf> are you looking for a multiplication table
03:51:49 <int-e> > zipWith (*) [0..9] [0..9]
03:52:14 <oerjan> > liftM2 (*) [0..9] [0..9]
03:52:15 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,0,3,6,9,12...
03:52:21 <jconn> shachaf: 0 1 2 3 4
03:52:21 <jconn> shachaf: 5 6 7 8 9
03:52:21 <jconn> shachaf: 10 11 12 13 14
03:52:21 <jconn> shachaf: 15 16 17 18 19
03:52:21 <jconn> shachaf: 20 21 22 23 24
03:52:32 <jconn> shachaf: 8 9 10 11
03:52:44 <jconn> shachaf: 8 9 10 11
03:52:44 <jconn> shachaf: 12 13 14 15
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03:55:07 <shachaf> ) (1 + i. 4) */ (1 + i. 4)
03:55:08 <jconn> shachaf: 4 8 12 16
04:50:43 <oerjan> Quotation found in the comments of http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1622: Sidney Morgenbesser (to B.F. Skinner): “So, you’re telling me it’s wrong to anthropomorphise humans?“
04:52:00 <Bike> that is a basic way to explain behaviorism
04:52:34 <oerjan> that explains why googling it led me to http://lesswrong.com/lw/6i5/behaviorism_beware_anthropomorphizing_humans/
04:53:31 <Bike> oh boy, lesswrong. but yeah the idea is basically to say that introspection isn't admissible, so you're left with what you can actually observe and record people doing.
04:54:14 <Bike> and that avoids thinking and poetry and other human things.
04:55:22 <oerjan> the other blog post started with aaronson getting interviewed by yudkowsk[iy]'s institute, btw.
04:56:05 <oerjan> i mean, the first one.
04:56:31 <oerjan> you can sigh when you get to lubos motl's response. which i skipped. hth
04:56:43 <Bike> also i'm trying to think of morgenbesser, i swear i've heard that name or something like it
04:57:29 <Bike> oskar morgenstern. i am officially bad at names.
04:58:15 <Bike> motl's that recurrent guy right
04:58:26 <Bike> who says things like, well, that
05:00:44 <oerjan> he's pretty recurrently offensive
05:01:35 <oerjan> also by skipping i meant not actually reading much of his blog post.
05:01:49 <jconn> quintopia: nice multiplication table
05:02:04 <Bike> oerjan: you actually clicked the link?
05:02:39 <oerjan> not enough previous negative reinforcement.
05:02:49 * oerjan is reading the behaviorist thing now
05:03:01 <Bike> behaviorist thing?
05:03:46 <oerjan> also it's not by yudkowsky himself.
05:06:56 <oerjan> "[Evolution] is is especially too slow and large-grained to produce human-level behavior: citing my sources in MLA format is an important skill, and I don't want to have to wait until ten generations of my ancestors have perished for citing their sources incorrectly before I can do it right."
05:07:24 <oerjan> hmph, the "is is" was in the original
05:08:23 <Bike> do they mention the endocrine system
05:09:26 <Bike> since it's the behavioral modulator that's faster than genetics but slower than synapses
05:10:02 <quintopia> the article is about skinner's program of explaining thoughts in addition to behavior, and the idea that mental behavior is created by a process akin to evolution.
05:10:18 <quintopia> it doesn't go into detail about mechanisms
05:10:38 <oerjan> `learn quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator.
05:10:54 <zzo38> Even though it is slow and large-grained, but there is a lot of time available so it doesn't matter if it is slow. If you want to cite your sources in MLA format, then read the book to explain how it is working, or ask someone how.
05:11:25 <Bike> zzo38: the point of the quotation is to explain why something as fast and flexible as the nervous system is adaptive.
05:11:44 <Bike> well, not just the nervous system, the whole of behavioral modulation.
05:12:13 <zzo38> Bike: Ah, OK. It also explains the kind of mistake they made by typing "is is".
05:13:09 <quintopia> zzo38: it's the opposite of an anticipation error.
05:14:07 <Bike> it also explains how i just ate part of a toothpick by accident
05:14:15 <zzo38> Some of these .MOD files are nine bytes longer than my program expects, while others are the same size the program is expecting. Why is that?
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05:14:56 <quintopia> the opposite of an anticipation error is a perseveration error
05:17:17 <quintopia> A second kind is a semantic bias which shows a tendency for sound bias to create words that are semantically related to other words in the linguistic environment. Motley and Baars (1976) found that a word pair like "get one" will more likely slip to "wet gun" if the pair before it is "damp rifle". These results suggest that we are sensitive to how things are laid out semantically.[14]
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05:21:18 <oerjan> incidentally the word before "is is" was "it".
05:21:47 <Bike> linguistic errors are the bomb
05:27:10 <quintopia> okay so i get a massive error configuring git for install. i don't know what happen.
05:29:08 <quintopia> sprunge is broken the world is falling apart
05:30:07 <oerjan> 500 Internal Server Error
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05:31:48 <quintopia> oerjan: can you tell me why these errors are happening pls pls pretty pls http://pastie.org/8555134
05:33:19 <oerjan> quintopia: missing .h files?
05:33:34 <quintopia> oerjan: looks like it. but how do i get them?
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05:36:16 <quintopia> also they look like pretty standard libs, and i've probably compiled against them before at some point...soooo where did they go?
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05:37:58 <quintopia> if i mv a directory to somewhere that directory already exists, will it just overwrite that directory in its entirety?
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05:39:48 <oerjan> quintopia: hm, i note they're not in /usr/include on nvg's machines either.
05:40:11 <quintopia> oerjan: because they are in /include i think
05:40:37 <quintopia> oerjan: but funny thing...heh...i accidentally mv'd /usr/include to /include the other day >.>
05:42:24 <oerjan> quintopia: perhaps run a diff between the directories?
05:42:51 <quintopia> oerjan: how? /include is gone poof replaced with /usr/include
05:43:07 <quintopia> i need new copies of all those libs
05:43:17 <oerjan> you don't have a /usr/include at all now?
05:43:35 <quintopia> well, i have a soft link from there to /include
05:43:54 <oerjan> was there an /include previously?
05:44:39 <quintopia> but either way i need some libraries that i don't have
05:45:16 <oerjan> here the files are in /usr/include/linux/stddef.h and /usr/include/c++/4.4/tr1/stdarg.h (also 4.3)
05:46:11 <oerjan> if you have those, maybe you are just missing the correct search paths?
05:47:10 <quintopia> i mean, it found stdio just fine you can see
05:47:40 <oerjan> also, when i checked stdio.h only one of those files should actually be included if you have __GNUC__ set
05:49:53 <oerjan> i don't know how you set those paths.
05:51:00 <oerjan> i recommend asking someone who knows this stuff rather than guessing >:)
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06:06:41 <Bike> man, that's still a great gif.
06:39:57 <zzo38> Sprunge seems broken; instead of the URL getting output, I get an HTML document specifying 500 Internal Server Error.
06:42:31 <quintopia> zzo38: yes we discussed this above
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07:06:31 <zzo38> quintopia: I didn't notice it
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07:12:14 <zzo38> For the Elo rating system it is said "In some cases the rating system can discourage game activity for players who wish to protect their rating." Would inflation (like it is in money) help?
07:15:58 <zzo38> I don't really like many of the alternative systems that never decrease, either.
07:16:29 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: or decreasing the rating over the time?
07:18:45 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: It could be another possibility
07:19:27 <quintopia> zzo38: the easiest fix would be to prefer "newer" ratings. for instance, when lots of players have gained position but haven't played some high ranked old player, the system should simulate their playing that old player and try to guess what the rating would be if they had played. and it should err on the side of underguessing.
07:19:30 <zzo38> But I think using a rating system with reference dates selected (like epoch dates in astronomy are done) may do
07:20:05 <quintopia> thus the only way to keep your score accurate and not low-balled is to actually play
07:21:13 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, I did also think of doing something like that, not exactly like your example though
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07:32:58 <fizzie> quintopia: If there was an "/include", and you did "mv /usr/include /include", you'd just have ended up with /usr/include as /include/include -- but usually there isn't an /include. (I don't have a better opinion on where those files could've gone, but being compiler-specific, they tend live in e.g. /usr/lib/gcc and come with the corresponding compiler package.)
07:33:54 <fizzie> @tell oerjan If I were to go the Unicode way, I'd surely go with a multiocular o.
07:35:01 <oerjan> @tell fizzie I thought you were annoyed that gurgle looked different from google...
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07:35:41 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1m 47s ago: If I were to go the Unicode way, I'd surely go with a multiocular o.
07:36:21 <fizzie> @tell oerjan MULTIOCULAR
07:36:41 <fizzie> Okay, perhaps that is too silly.
07:36:51 <Bike> so why does @messages-whatever do @messages-loud
07:37:09 <fizzie> Because of automagic typo correction.
07:37:21 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages? messages
07:37:26 <Bike> maybe i fucking didn't
07:37:29 <Bike> @nessages-loud
07:37:30 <fizzie> But only if it's closer (edit-distance-wise) than 2, and unambiguous.
07:37:35 <Bike> oh, edit distance.
07:38:08 <oerjan> there's also a special case for an unambiguous prefix, iirc
07:38:18 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: list listall listchans listmodules listservers
07:39:10 <lambdabot> ##categorytheory ##crypto ##logic ##manatee ##megaharem ##proggit ##villagegreen #agda #arch-haskell #csa_uva #darcs #diagrams #dreamlinux-es #esoteric #fedora-haskell #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #happs #haskell #haskell-arcade #haskell-blah #haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-game
07:39:10 <lambdabot> #haskell-gsoc #haskell-in-depth #haskell-infrastructure #haskell-lens #haskell-llvm #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell-soc #haskell.au #haskell.cz #haskell.de #haskell.dut #haskell.es #haskell.fi #haskell.hr #haskell.it #haskell.jp #haskell.no #haskell.ru #haskell.se #haskell.tw #haskell_ru #hscraft-srv #jhc #jtiger #learnanycomputerlanguage #
07:39:10 <lambdabot> learnprogramming #ledger #lesswrong #lw-prog #macosx #macosxdev #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #snapframework #tanuki #teamunix #unicycling #xmonad #yi
07:39:26 <Bike> should i even ask about megaharem
07:39:35 <kmc> @dick-balls
07:39:46 <kmc> ##megaharem??
07:39:53 <fizzie> That's a lot of channels.
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07:41:57 <fizzie> http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8753/y3g7.png uh (topic of ##megaharem)
07:43:37 <myname> patrick seems to have fun
07:43:47 <Bike> these people aren't fictional, are they
07:44:17 <fizzie> The topic also contains Patrick's TODO list: http://piratepad.net/nB6tkjjE70
07:44:22 <fizzie> (I didn't *go* there, I just /list'd.)
07:44:43 <Bike> oh, i forgot you can do that.
07:45:07 <Bike> the real travesty here is that they didn't use dotty
07:45:19 <kmc> yes I have a friend who maintains such a graph using Graphviz
07:45:25 <elliott> #haskell/2013-10-31.log:16:42:15 <LeoTal> @tell elliott Hi! I'd like lambdabot to @join ##megaharem. I was told to pester you for the relevant privileges.
07:45:32 <kmc> theirs is a bit too complicated to do in mspaint though
07:45:38 <kmc> plus mspaint is just a big turnoff
07:45:43 <elliott> lambdabot/2013-11-02.log:15:31:31 <lambdabot> LeoTal said 1d 22h 49m 15s ago: Hi! I'd like lambdabot to @join ##megaharem. I was told to pester you for the relevant privileges.
07:45:46 <elliott> lambdabot/2013-11-02.log:15:31:57 <elliott> @join ##megaharem
07:46:01 <Bike> i actually learned dotty from similar diagrams
07:46:04 <fizzie> lambdabot: I guess you go everywhere you're asked, huh?
07:46:06 <Bike> i don't know how to feel about that suddenly
07:46:11 <Bike> monotone: you're a monster.
07:46:13 <kmc> the real question is, where is lambdabot on the graph
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07:47:30 <fizzie> I made a similar graph on #esoteric once, using a thresholded version of the nick-mentioning matrix as an adjacency matrix (and GraphViz, of course), but that didn't really look terribly good.
07:47:42 <Bike> yeah, the graphs had thousands of nodes.
07:47:53 <Bike> opening an svg forced me to do a hard restart.
07:48:11 <Bike> not my most brilliant plan
07:49:17 <myname> fizzie: omg that is a great idea
07:49:34 <myname> i just have to think about how to make newick into fancy ascii art
07:52:07 <fizzie> I can't seem to find the graphs I did draw.
07:52:29 <fizzie> It really was just http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_mentions.html in graph form, though.
07:53:37 <fizzie> Perhaps I should've used something else than a global threshold for the edges, though. Like a per-node maximum degree limit.
07:54:05 <fizzie> (Though that would be kind of lying.)
07:55:00 <myname> fizzie: i would've made something like a phylogenetic tree
07:55:33 <myname> with shorter distances, the more people talk with each other
07:56:06 <Bike> that's not phylogenic /or/ genetic >:
07:56:54 <fizzie> The graph is also pretty clearly not a tree. (See: loops.)
07:57:28 <fizzie> You could make a maximum-weight spanning tree out of it, though.
07:57:33 <fizzie> If you wanted a tree, anyway.
07:57:51 <Bike> http://biologicalmarginalia.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/cladistics-of-doom/
07:58:52 <myname> Bike: so... you are one of these... biological people?
07:59:09 <fizzie> Unlike all us machine people.
07:59:18 <Bike> myname: working on it
07:59:52 <myname> Bike: i have one course as minor subject
08:02:13 <myname> http://medicalbioinformatics.de/teaching/item/19710-algorithmic-bioinformatics (won't help you much, because it's german)
08:02:43 <Bike> i'm basically imagining a course in computational cladistics.
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08:03:06 <Bike> oh, you do sequence alignment too. yeah, usual stuff
08:03:20 <Bike> pretty neat but i dunno much bioinformatics beyond implementing bitap on a lark once :p
08:03:40 <Bike> ooh proteins too huh. any folding?
08:03:52 <myname> we are on it, currently
08:04:07 <myname> pretty hard for a computer science student
08:04:09 <Bike> i guess that's the cliche thing but there must be other things, like molecular cladistics or finding domains or some shit
08:04:30 <myname> also: why do people know "bioinformatics" but not "informatics"?
08:05:00 <Bike> why do they know DNA but not nucleic acids
08:05:38 <Bike> i don't really know what 'informatics' is. i just kind of imagine library science
08:05:57 <Bike> anyway what's hard about bioinformatics. everybody's like ten years behind in software development
08:06:33 <myname> Bike: well, "bioinformatics" is "bioinformatik" in german and "computer science" is "informatik" in german
08:06:47 <Bike> Not like that in English.
08:07:04 <Bike> well i guess there's 'information technology'.
08:07:16 <myname> but you are right, programming stuff is pretty easy
08:07:24 <quintopia> it looks like lambdabot talks to itself a lot
08:07:28 <myname> even though i really hate biojava
08:07:37 <Bike> like i said, ten years behind.
08:07:47 <Bike> my lab uses DOS programs, man
08:08:09 <Bike> "they work, so noboy's bothered moving them"
08:08:15 <myname> i never heard about webservices before, ever
08:08:27 <quintopia> also it's hard to tell whether optbot talked to elliott or fungot more (elliott by a nose)
08:08:27 <fungot> quintopia: and other variables. ever. ( great game too) http://gamegarage.co.uk/ play/ mousegame/
08:08:30 <myname> like, why the hell do you want to send ugly soap stuff via http?
08:08:45 <myname> soap in java sucks even more than java alone
08:08:56 <kmc> fungot: are you in the largest connected component
08:08:56 <fungot> kmc: combinator theory: a function with an arbitrary limit on height?
08:08:57 <Bike> the lab program i actually work on outputs tables as text files full of \ts
08:09:02 <Bike> so, shut up, you got it good son
08:09:22 <kmc> lawn, kids, etc
08:09:36 <myname> until now i can't figure out how to make a single soapelement to send as an argument to a method
08:09:45 <Bike> it's not an age thing, it's an oh god does it get worse thing.
08:09:49 <myname> because every soapelement has to have a soapelement as parent
08:09:55 <Bike> i mean, at least i'm not using excel.
08:10:31 <shachaf> fungot: why am i even awake
08:10:31 <fungot> shachaf: get him a helmet!" was the subject of the day! the simulator hangs after 5300 ticks, both as an applet or standalone.))
08:11:01 <shachaf> what if someone kidnapped fungot and substituted a fungot simulator
08:11:01 <fungot> shachaf: i don't think i'll be of much help to you. using ncurses doesen't mean using panels, because i read the archive, which doesn't really teach anyways!! you don't want to
08:11:16 <kmc> plan fungot from outer space
08:11:16 <fungot> kmc: look there is no stdin stdout, but doesn't do anything about warnings.
08:11:54 <kmc> not fungot but another bot of the same name
08:11:58 <shachaf> fungot: are you the real fungot
08:11:58 <fungot> shachaf: it strikes me also fnord it could be worthwhile to skim the logs from fnord for info on why it's called fnord
08:12:02 <kmc> fungot: that explains a lot (??)
08:12:02 <fungot> kmc: is the path taken through the fsa) it prints nothing)
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08:12:49 <myname> Bike: after about 10 sessions or so one bioinformatics student asked why it is so much repetition
08:12:56 <myname> i was like "what the fuck, man?"
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08:13:10 <Bike> i don't get it
08:13:31 <myname> this course seems to be boring for most of them
08:13:41 <myname> because they already had nearly everything
08:13:57 <Bike> maybe i should clarify that i'm not in bioinformatics. i'm the guy spitting out original data in a unique undocumented format that i need you to send to my pal in spain
08:14:35 <myname> sounds equally painful
08:14:45 <kmc> hello i am prince of nigeria i have USD $100,000,000 of bioinformatics data
08:14:46 <fizzie> quintopia: Most of those lambdabot mentions are from lambdabot asking people to /msg lambdabot @messages.
08:15:01 <Bike> i'm mostly working before the data-reading part so the pain is just in people who don't know how to code, and hey what else is new.
08:15:08 <kmc> whither ruddy
08:15:45 <kmc> died on the way to his home planet??
08:15:57 <Bike> maybe someday i'll have to parse a few hundred measurements of sarcomere length data sorted by salmon acclimation temperature. livin the dream
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08:15:59 <kmc> /nick kmc|notdrunk
08:16:05 <kmc> shachaf: earth
08:16:23 <kmc> can jews eat robot ham
08:16:35 <shachaf> kmc: hang on just a minute are you drunk
08:16:55 <shachaf> v. clever trick but i've found you out
08:16:59 <Bike> if he was drunk would he mime indicating he was drunk? think logically shachaf
08:17:10 <kmc> You've laid some kind of trap!
08:17:43 <shachaf> i'm from space.........chu space
08:18:03 <zzo38> If you are drunk you would accidentally mime indicating you are drunk. If you are not drunk then you will do it on purpose instead.
08:18:05 <quintopia> what do you call a very very small chu space?
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08:18:43 <shachaf> zzo38: or what if you're lying
08:19:51 <kmc> `addquote <shachaf> i'm from space.........chu space
08:19:55 <zzo38> shachaf: That doesn't matter; the result will be the same if you are lying or not.
08:19:57 <HackEgo> 1145) <shachaf> i'm from space.........chu space
08:20:11 <kmc> zzo38: where I'm from, drunk people do integral calculus to try to demonstrate they aren't drunk
08:20:28 <quintopia> kmc: why do sober people do integral calculus
08:20:36 <shachaf> what kmc that's not even a good quote
08:20:43 <myname> because they study physics?
08:20:49 <quintopia> (something tells me breathalyzer tests are more accurate than calculus tests)
08:20:52 <kmc> we will protect you from the terrible secret of chu space
08:21:19 <myname> if shachaf is from chu space, i want to be from Pspace
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08:22:03 * kmc tries to remember why NPSPACE isn't a thing
08:22:21 <kmc> it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitch%27s_theorem
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08:22:32 <kmc> the thing about space is that you can reuse space but you can't reuse time
08:23:02 <Bike> hey that's pretty deep and stuff
08:23:10 <kmc> also NSPACE(s(n)) = co-NSPACE(s(n)) for any function s(n) ≥ log n ???? what a country
08:23:12 <oerjan> <kmc> zzo38: where I'm from, drunk people do integral calculus to try to demonstrate they aren't drunk <-- i recall doing that once.
08:23:17 <Bike> what a country
08:23:24 <Bike> i on't even know what co nspacce is fuck
08:23:55 <Bike> drunk on compllexity classes
08:24:33 <kmc> is your dick a useful oracle
08:24:46 <elliott> btw who joined that channel and mentioned #esoteric
08:24:56 <myname> it can tell whether or not he want to do it with someone in polynomial time
08:25:00 <elliott> if you're going to gossip about random innocents at least don't barge in and make a fool of yourself??
08:25:12 <Bike> kmc: #P^{my dick} is actually log :(
08:25:18 <oerjan> elliott: i guess they attracted PatrickRobotham?
08:25:39 <Bike> does that actually mean it's worse, i'm not sure how 'worse' is
08:25:54 <kmc> your dick is so bad that it reduces the power of any complexity class
08:26:05 <kmc> is this like... @dril teaches cs
08:26:07 <oerjan> should have `relcomed him
08:26:30 <kmc> elliott: which channe/
08:26:38 <kmc> whoops sorry that 'l' fell over
08:26:45 <shachaf> kmc: the chu space papers keep train analogies
08:26:47 <kmc> letter hasty placement, we sincerely regret the error
08:26:55 <kmc> are they chu chu analogies?
08:26:55 <Bike> i am skeptical of the concept of 'too big to be tractable' because i am huge and in traction all the time
08:27:24 <elliott> kmc: ##megaharem, presumably
08:27:35 <kmc> it's rude to just bust into another man's harem
08:27:39 <elliott> (per /msg chanserv access list ##megaharem)
08:27:55 <Bike> also, illegal, in the original meaning of harem
08:28:00 <Bike> watch it friends
08:28:19 <myname> but there are already men in this harem
08:28:25 <kmc> have we declared any fatwas recently
08:28:38 <Bike> god i want to see a chick in a niqab with a siren yelling PURDAH VIOLATION
08:28:44 <Bike> like a siren hat, see
08:29:39 <Bike> kmc strictly observes purdah
08:29:48 <Bike> shachaf meanwhile is a freemason
08:29:54 <kmc> shachaf: do you have stairs in your house
08:30:12 <kmc> i mean uh "who will help the widow's son"
08:30:50 <kmc> that happened to me once
08:30:56 <kmc> salvia's a hell of a drug
08:31:16 <kmc> not really
08:31:49 <kmc> do you like existential nightmares that will haunt you for the rest of your life
08:31:52 <kmc> if so then i highly recommend it
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08:32:20 <shachaf> is that the dual of universla nightmares
08:32:30 <kmc> yes, the universal nightmare is the one we're already living
08:32:39 <kmc> <kmc> letter hasty placement <--- wow I transposed an entire word
08:32:59 <olsner> word hasty placement too
08:33:35 <shachaf> one time i transposed the entire world
08:33:42 <fizzie> Bah, I found one "relationship graph" but it's not #esoteric, it's -- actually, never mind, it's too complicated to explain.
08:33:55 <kmc> one time I shifted the entire universe up and to the left but nobody noticed
08:33:58 <kmc> fizzie: is it?
08:34:23 <fizzie> Well, I mean, I think it's from darkhive data.
08:34:41 <kmc> what's darkhive?
08:34:48 <fizzie> See, that's exactly what I meant.
08:35:02 <kmc> i begin to understand
08:35:43 <oerjan> kmc: actually we noticed but emmy noether got us all to ignore it
08:35:55 <kmc> I don't think there's been much relationship involvement between #esoteric members... unless I'm missing something
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08:37:13 <oerjan> until you and shachaf started hanging out i would have been hard pressed to remember anyone who'd even met
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08:37:32 <fizzie> I've met ineiros, but that doesn't really count for much.
08:38:10 <fizzie> And Deewiant's allegedly seen me.
08:38:14 <Taneb> I've herded a couple of lurkers onto the channel from York
08:38:45 <fizzie> I have the weirdest idea that oklopol and oerjan met somewhere in Norway, but perhaps I dreamed that.
08:39:11 <oerjan> no, that didn't happen
08:39:23 <fizzie> Perhaps oklopol met someone else, then.
08:40:45 <shachaf> i have met 5 people in this channel and several people who used to be in this channel but are no more
08:41:01 <fizzie> I might theoretically have met atehwa somewhere, but that's not certain at all.
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08:42:21 <Taneb> I have met two lurkers.
08:42:30 <kmc> i failed to meet any of you when I was in .fi
08:42:35 <kmc> but I've met shachaf and Gracenotes
08:42:37 <Taneb> I have met someone who has met elliott, and probably someone who has met ais523
08:42:42 <kmc> and I live with douglass_
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08:45:25 <fizzie> See, it's not a completely edgeless graph.
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08:45:38 <kmc> the in-person-meeting graph?
08:45:58 <kmc> yeah douglass_ has also met shachaf and Gracenotes; the four of us played mölkky together in the park, it was great
08:46:06 <kmc> and maybe she's even met copumpkin
08:46:19 <fizzie> The "relationship" graph. I mean, we're going to have to extend that to "ever met in real life" to get at least something going.
08:46:44 <shachaf> kmc: does your house have mölkky things yet
08:46:48 <kmc> shachaf: to say nothing of the dog
08:46:59 <shachaf> kmc: oopse i have failed to say nothing of the dog
08:47:36 <kmc> thanks 2 u
08:47:44 <kmc> shachaf: it hasn't :/
08:48:07 <oerjan> "How not to speak of dogs" by Dr. Zwinglish Gerademeister
08:48:26 <kmc> three men in a boat to say &c.
08:48:29 <kmc> i have read it
08:48:39 <kmc> "it hasn't :/" was re: mölkky-things
08:48:47 <shachaf> there's _Three Men in a Boat (To Say Nothing of the Dog)_ by Jerome K. Jerome
08:48:52 <kmc> mölkky-þing
08:48:54 <Sgeo> I want to see people use combinators inside TH expressions
08:48:58 <shachaf> but there's also _To Say Nothing of the Dog_ by Connie Willis
08:49:04 <kmc> shachaf: oh i don't know this one
08:49:05 <Sgeo> Rather than falling back on making quasiquoters
08:49:16 <kmc> is it good
08:49:19 <kmc> the latter
08:50:14 <shachaf> hm i don't remember it v. well it was over a decade ago that i read it and also not in english so i didn't even remember that that was the title
08:50:39 <shachaf> there was a cat plague in it that killed all cats on earth so they went back in time to bring cats from the past
08:50:59 <shachaf> but they had to find cats that wouldn't cause paradoxes
08:51:12 <olsner> so they got a dog instead?
08:52:48 <oerjan> "I pay Jerome so much in royalties," the publisher told a friend, "I cannot imagine what becomes of all the copies of that book I issue. I often think the public must eat them."
08:52:51 <kmc> that's v. confusing
08:53:13 <shachaf> and then it turned out that the butler did it all along
08:53:46 <shachaf> and/or other things i can't remember
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08:54:54 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Say_Nothing_of_the_Dog
08:55:39 <kmc> Win Butler did it
08:55:58 <Sgeo> I ... distrust many of the decisions of the Yesod framework, but if I could figure out how to make combinator based routes for Yesod for use in TH without the QQ, that would be nice
08:57:11 <shachaf> also someone in #cslounge-books recommended another book by the same author the other day or something
08:58:15 <kmc> i didn't know that's a channel
08:59:09 <shachaf> i think it only came into existence somewhat recently
09:00:32 <shachaf> oh and also the "time continuum" is conscious or something in order to correct paradoxes
09:02:21 <olsner> sounds like you're not supposed to think too much about how/what that is, just that it does
09:02:34 <shachaf> sounds like i'm supposed to go to sleep
09:03:24 <olsner> hmm, judging by the time I'm supposed to go to work
09:04:54 <Taneb> Oh man, I never cleared out the trainers on this route
09:05:05 <Taneb> Now I've got my level 49 Snorlax into a battle
09:05:10 <Taneb> Against a level 9 Magikarp
09:05:46 <olsner> a level 49 snot salmon? sounds fierce
09:07:11 <fizzie> FireFly: All Pokemen names in highlight, eh?
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09:29:57 <b_jonas> int-e: trailing zeros and saturated subtraction, understood, great.
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09:43:41 <fizzie> !SENT_START OF U. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. HAVE A BUYBACK OF YOUTH !SENT_END riiight
09:44:14 <kmc> would that i could
09:44:35 <olsner> fungot: do you still have the buyback of youth?
09:44:35 <fungot> olsner: nice to see that xml uses explicit renaming). using ( require ( lib " errortrace.ss" " errortrace")) doesn't do anything for the computed result
09:45:33 <fizzie> !SENT_START U. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. AGE BOY GEORGE K. K. K. K. K. K. K. K. !SENT_END
09:45:41 <fizzie> I guess that's not very good.
09:48:13 <kmc> what's with the U's and K's
09:49:19 <fizzie> Sometimes there's also I. and A.
09:49:53 <fizzie> It's also obsessed with buybacks.
09:49:56 <fizzie> !SENT_START A U. K. K. K. K. YOU BUY BACK OF A YEAR THEY HAVE YOU BUY BACK BACK !SENT_END
09:50:09 <fizzie> !SENT_START BACK OF A BOY HAVE A YEAR BUYBACK OF YOUTH BY JACK I. K. K. !SENT_END
09:50:42 <fizzie> fungot: It makes less sense than you!
09:50:42 <fungot> fizzie: actually english has that version too: " utility" only if you want to
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11:23:42 <fizzie> TIL: "The mouse visual cortex is like the smartphone of neuroscience. Everyone feels the need to get one, but it remains to be seen if it's a convenience or a distraction."
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13:22:15 <boily> good snowy morning!
13:22:22 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 11h 43m 58s ago: You misspelled exercise on your user page
13:22:22 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 11h 18m 15s ago: <boily> good unpentadactyl morning! <-- my condolences on losing a finger
13:22:22 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 2d 10h 48m 53s ago: <boily> normally distributed glazed eyes served over bouchées of surreal bread rolls. <-- are you attempting to create québécois/r'lyehan fusion cuisine
13:22:58 <boily> @tell oerjan oops.
13:23:14 <boily> @tell oerjan I'm stuck with a prosthetic vimperator.
13:23:26 <boily> @tell oerjan la la la ♪
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13:44:03 <boily> hellooodl. atangevlobriq.
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14:24:08 <fizzie> "You’re invited to try out the R2014a Prerelease with MATLAB" but I'm not sure I want to :/
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14:25:36 <boily> fizzie: you know you want to feel the MATLAB.
14:27:13 <boily> fungot: do you understand matlab?
14:27:13 <fungot> boily: i found it much more complicated than it needs to be public
14:27:38 <fizzie> fungot: You're certainly right about that. Whatever that means.
14:27:39 <fungot> fizzie: false, fnord) at the mzscheme source code:).
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14:27:48 <boily> `relcome ternkustik
14:27:50 <HackEgo> ternkustik: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:52:16 <LinearInterpol> small question: how is Thue somehow enabled with nondeterminism? I'm confused by the example given.
14:52:30 <LinearInterpol> yes it expresses nondeterminism, but it doesn't make sense.
14:52:58 <LinearInterpol> are the two conflicting definitions somehow in some sort of race condition or something?
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15:10:19 <boily> if you're lucky → http://www.cisco.com/
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15:27:38 <boily> fungot: do you even netsplit, bro?
15:27:38 <fungot> boily: and do you? i know i have seen that multiple times, though
15:28:19 <boily> fungot: I did, about one hour ago.
15:28:19 <fungot> boily: hardware also helps in a whole directory as a file system
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16:21:34 <Bike> LinearInterpol: what don't you get about thue's nondeterminism
16:22:00 <LinearInterpol> I understand it's a rewrite system and everything but..
16:22:33 <LinearInterpol> does outputting symbols suddenly trigger a race condition or something?
16:22:35 <Bike> it's just that if more than one rule cn apply you have to pick one.
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16:23:30 <LinearInterpol> so underneath you're just essentially using something like an RNG to select which definition to use.
16:24:05 <Bike> no. it's just not defined.
16:24:20 <Bike> you could always pick the first one, or always pick the last one, or use an RNG on alternate tuesdays.
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16:25:12 <LinearInterpol> I mean abstractly yes it's undefined but my real gripe was in the implementation :P
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16:25:32 <Bike> Oh. Which one?
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16:25:41 <Bike> the one at "lolwh.at"?
16:25:51 <LinearInterpol> http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html
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16:27:01 <Bike> It looks like it picks a rule randomly.
16:27:21 <LinearInterpol> I initially thought it was some kind of race condition setup.
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16:27:45 <Bike> "var selected = random_choice(matching_rules)"
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18:26:30 <HackEgo> shemarov: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:27:03 <boily> shachaf: wait. didn't I `relcome you already this morning?
18:27:13 <boily> s/shachaf/shemarov/
18:27:19 <shachaf> boily: No, you've never `relcomed me.
18:27:31 <boily> shachaf: but I mistabcompleted you.
18:27:39 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:28:19 <shachaf> kmc: "new wood stoves" would be a good name for a ban
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18:31:27 <shachaf> *!*@* would be a good name for a ban
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18:45:17 <mroman> I'd like to do modulo 2 in brainfuck
18:45:23 <mroman> on the values 0,1 and 2
18:45:35 <mroman> so if(cell == 2) cell = 0 would work too
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18:48:14 <Slereah> Do you mean binary BF or something else
18:49:37 <mroman> but doesn't matter anyway
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18:50:23 <boily> mroman: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x_.3D_x_.3D.3D_y, where y = 1?
18:51:35 <boily> (meanwhile, someone strange is doing something weird on IRC from 91.210.101.0/24...)
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18:52:57 <mroman> http://codepad.org/Hf6likTu
18:53:02 <mroman> ^- that would be the principle
18:53:19 <mroman> I assumed 8 is the highest value
18:53:25 <mroman> but the same thing should apply to 255 as well
18:53:29 <mroman> you just need more spacing
18:54:32 <mroman> if you need a new cell, you set up the spacing
18:54:43 <mroman> and subtract 6 (the constant pre-known distortion) from it
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18:55:00 <boily> dmarat: who are you exactly?
18:55:24 <HackEgo> python: can't open file 'print(31 /2)': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
18:55:32 <mroman> `python "print (31 /2)"
18:55:34 <HackEgo> python: can't open file '"print (31 /2)"': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
18:55:43 <boily> `python -c 'print(31/2)'
18:55:45 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ 'print(31/2)' \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
18:56:02 <mrhmouse> `run python -c "print(31 / 2)"
18:56:03 <kmc> `run python -c 'print(31/2)'
18:56:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 16h 44m 57s ago: (Control.Arrow.>>>)
18:56:37 <boily> mrhmouse: well, there is also [->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<] for divmodding.
18:56:41 <lambdabot> Category cat => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
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18:57:53 <mrhmouse> Though I don't think that's what I was looking for :P
18:58:17 <mrhmouse> I _think_ I wanted (a -> b) -> (c -> a) -> (c -> b)
18:58:45 <mrhmouse> Bike: yes.. wait.. I may have it backwards.
18:58:57 <mrhmouse> I was looking for something like F#'s |> operator, out of curiousity
18:59:07 <Bike> ain't got time for that nerd shit
18:59:21 <mrhmouse> Bike you are my favorite person.
18:59:35 <mroman> http://codepad.org/QCN9hF7a
18:59:46 * boily sews wedding dresses for mrhmouse and Bike
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18:59:56 <mrhmouse> boily, can I borrow your mapole?
19:00:03 <Bike> i'm an athlete, everybody loves me
19:00:31 <mroman> Now one just needs to find a way to determine when to allocate more memory
19:00:51 <mroman> at least it's a finite state machine
19:01:05 <boily> mrhmouse: please yourself, go nuts, have fun, enjoy the mapole!
19:01:45 <mroman> If you know how much memory your program needs, you can do the space initialization at program start
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19:03:09 <mroman> Maybe one can check if one has wrapped around
19:03:13 <mroman> and then allocate more memory
19:03:23 <mroman> which would require to perform a memory check after every > or <
19:04:00 <mroman> Can you check in Brainfuck for a certain cell value without using any other cell?
19:04:47 <mroman> after the check it must have the same value as before the check
19:05:00 <Bike> uh, how are you outputting a result then.
19:05:06 <mroman> You could then set 'tape end' markers
19:05:15 <mroman> and after every > or < you check if you are at the end of the tape
19:05:20 <mroman> and then just allocate more memory
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19:06:41 <mroman> you can use other cells
19:07:15 <mroman> you can use the spacing cells between real cells for temporary values
19:07:24 <mroman> but you have to set them to 0 after you're done
19:09:31 <Bike> that still doesn't explain output.
19:10:49 <mroman> I'll leave it to some bf-expert to figure out the rest :D
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19:16:24 <mroman> My bachelor thesis is gonna be about simulating masses of people in buildings
19:17:50 <mroman> to determine if the building is capable of handling thousands of people walking different routes without jamming up
19:18:32 <mroman> if I'm actually doing the whole bachelor stuff
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19:40:21 <mroman> or "groups of lots of people"
19:41:03 <boily> are calculations easier if you consider masses of groups of lots of people as a continous fluid?
19:41:59 <boily> the flow of people from floor to floor, gushing down staircases like the Niagara :D
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19:42:26 <mroman> it's a differential equation based approach
19:44:22 <boily> Navier-Stokes the liquid out of that approach.
19:44:42 <mroman> Navier-Stokes sounds sciency
19:46:21 <boily> engineeringly sciency.
19:47:12 <mroman> I have no idea of sciency stuff
19:49:15 <olsner> hmm, a map of a subway is not an optimal mouse pad for optical mice
19:49:38 <olsner> the cursor tends to follow the subway lines
19:49:56 <quintopia> boily: i notice you have written some interpreters in python others in ruby. what do you do your work code in?
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19:51:37 <boily> quintopia: python.
19:52:20 <boily> I had my ruby phase when I was younger, back when I was still in Cégep. I'd say... 16 to 18 year old.
19:52:34 <boily> aubergine does need a python interp.
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19:52:46 <FreeFull> Write all interpreters in brainfuck
19:52:50 <boily> or a Haskell one. I could create an Aubergine monad :D
19:53:14 <quintopia> if you don't python it, i will eventually
19:53:38 <olsner> huh, there's an ISO Ruby nowadays
19:53:53 <boily> quintopia: suit yourself! (or the Québécois version: «gâte toé!»)
19:54:39 <quintopia> i'm guessing grails is groovy on rails
19:55:00 <olsner> (if I read more I expect to find it deprecated and completely incompatible with any ruby version that the rubyites are willing to use, it's already a year old after all)
19:56:14 <olsner> boily: e.g. http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=59579
20:13:08 <doesthiswork> I've been playing around with something like delimited continuations and they are the most fun and mindbending ever
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20:18:55 <doesthiswork> (reset (list 1 (reset (list 2 (shift k (list 3 (funcall (k 4) 5))) (list 6 (shift w #'w)))))) => (1 (3 (2 4 (6 5))))
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21:00:36 <quintopia> could anyone give step-by-step instructions for how one would construct Truth-machine in Onoz?
21:04:30 <kmc> oh god delimited continuations
21:08:59 <kmc> maybe i've given up on understanding them :/
21:10:41 <doesthiswork> I just used a macro to make my mock version of shift reset
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21:14:19 <boily> doesthiswork is beginning to show multiple personalities, one of them understanding delimited continuations.
21:15:38 <doesthiswork> I can successfully walk through them, it's just sometimes they don't do what I expect until I do
21:23:37 <quintopia> where is ais523. he'd know how to construct an infinite loop which is not provably so
21:24:06 * kmc uses a delimited continuation to jump to another timeline where he understands delimited continuations
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22:32:04 <mrhmouse> which reglangs do people in #esoteric use?
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22:33:47 <kmc> non-eso langs?
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22:37:24 <mrhmouse> I know many here use Haskell, but talk earlier regarding Python, Ruby, Groovy, etc has me interested in what else is in use. I know that you, at least, use Rust
22:38:47 <Taneb> I am currently forced to use Python
22:39:10 <kmc> I used to write Haskell quite often, but not lately
22:41:01 <kmc> lately it's mostly Rust, Python, C, Bash, GNU Make, JavaScript, x86 assembly
22:41:06 <Bike> lisps for fuckwithing, matlab at woik
22:41:19 <Bike> and i have a few things in verilog and javascript i should really finish.
22:43:30 <kmc> i have been paid to write perl, haskell, c, c++, java, assembly, shell, make, rust, javascript, prolly some others
22:43:33 <kmc> scheme if being a TA counts
22:43:51 <shachaf> remember when you were paid to write nops
22:46:09 <mrhmouse> I currently use C#, CoffeeScript, and D most often. I'm learning Erlang & OCaml, and I have to use C#/JavaScript/T-SQL at work.
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22:47:24 <mrhmouse> kmc: you were paid to write makefiles? specifically for the makefiles, or were they part of other projects you were on?
22:47:52 <Bike> a programming project wth one person working specifically n the build process would be kind of neat.
22:48:05 <kmc> that's common on large projects
22:48:17 <kmc> it rapidly grows to be a full-time job
22:48:26 <kmc> especially if you support lots of platforms
22:48:36 <kmc> mrhmouse: part of other projects
22:49:48 <mrhmouse> does Rust have a dependency management system? I've been language-hopping lately looking for a language that I like _and_ that has a good dep manager.
22:50:27 <mrhmouse> something like NPM for NodeJS, Ruby Gems, D's Dub, Rebar, etc etc..
22:52:42 <kmc> not really
22:53:20 <kmc> there's this rustpkg thing but it's not very complete
22:53:52 <kmc> and I don't know about the current pace of development, since the main developer left Mozilla
22:54:14 <kmc> you could look for docs or ask in #rust on irc.mozilla.org; they probably have a better idea how capable it is
22:54:17 <kmc> I've only used it a little
22:54:55 <kmc> the project I work on uses Make for the top-level build, and does build some individual dependencies with rustpkg, but we're having problems with it and we're probably switching away
22:55:23 <mrhmouse> I was only curious; Rust struck me as too low-level for my needs when I checked it out ages ago. Though their pointer types seem far nicer than C++
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22:55:50 <kmc> it is a low-level language, yeah, though it's memory safe at the same time, which is really cool
22:56:18 <kmc> and yeah, the pointer types express concepts which exist in C and C++, but in those languages they exist mostly in the programmer's head and can't be checked automatically
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22:57:48 <mrhmouse> I remember thinking that was useful (owned pointers, I think they're called?)
22:58:35 <kmc> yeah C also has a notion of pointers which transfer ownership vs. those which don't
22:58:53 <kmc> for example, strdup takes the latter and returns the former
22:59:07 <kmc> but there's zero compiler checking and if you screw it up you corrupt memory
22:59:16 <kmc> shachaf: well, C APIs anyway
22:59:30 <mrhmouse> right, so it's not part of the language spec like in Rusy
23:00:00 <kmc> i mention this by way of heading off the criticism (not from you, but in general) that Rust has too many pointer types
23:00:07 <shachaf> on the other hand i heard that you can't do self.tree = <a thing that uses self.tree> in rust
23:00:08 <kmc> it's just codifying and checking things that already exist
23:00:31 <mrhmouse> fizzie: but that yields "Rus", no?
23:00:44 <fizzie> mrhmouse: No, it just adds the / you were missing.
23:01:46 <kmc> fizzie: regexes operating on regexes? that should be an esolang, oh wait
23:03:00 <mrhmouse> honestly I'd prefer to use C# more at home, but the most popular package manager has some issues on Mono
23:03:58 <kmc> yeah, C# seems like a pretty good language, but I'm scared off using it more due to my impression that non-MS tools are half-baked
23:04:46 <mrhmouse> kmc: I can't vouch for MonoDevelop, if that's what you mean. I primarily use Vim & gmcs directly
23:05:07 <mrhmouse> Mono itself is pretty mature, though.
23:05:39 <kmc> that's good
23:05:42 <kmc> but this package manager isn't?
23:05:59 <mrhmouse> it's just that NuGet (the MS package manager) does things like hardcode paths to look for config files (%AppData%\LocalLow\something)
23:06:30 <mrhmouse> so it's more on the NuGet devs :/
23:07:01 <mrhmouse> also, NuGet really shouldn't have existed in the first place.. there was already a package manager in place that works cross-platform, but MS rolled their own
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23:09:24 <Bike> http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2013/12/16/the-age-of-bitcoins-is-over/
23:11:17 <lambdabot> boily said 9h 48m 3s ago: I'm stuck with a prosthetic vimperator.
23:11:17 <lambdabot> boily said 9h 47m 50s ago: la la la ♪
23:11:17 <lambdabot> mrhmouse said 4h 14m 31s ago: Thanks!
23:41:25 <Bike> http://blog.moertel.com/posts/2013-12-14-great-old-timey-game-programming-hack.html fun stuff
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23:44:59 <Fiora> Bike: oh gosh, the messing with the stack pointer thing. that reminds me of a post I saw once on how to get 8 registers on x86
23:45:09 <Fiora> by stuffing the stack pointer in a memory location and using esp as a register
23:45:27 <Bike> i'm just kind of in awe that there was a "zero page" you could make be anywhere
23:45:32 <Fiora> it sounded like the kind of thing that could make the OS hate you
23:45:45 <Fiora> gosh, yeah, I still don't really understand the zero page thing, like, I've seen it in documentation for these old things but it's weird
23:46:47 <olsner> instructions with a single byte offset can access the zero page in one cycle less than an instruction with two bytes offset
23:46:53 <kmc> this thing has an OS?
23:47:02 <olsner> (due to being one byte smaller)
23:47:08 <Bike> well like, 6502 had two-byte addressing, where each one-byte block was a "page", and there was an addressing mode where you just use the second byte and the first byte is zero.
23:47:11 <Bike> or dp, on this thing
23:50:18 <kmc> AVR is kind of like that too
23:50:31 <kmc> the "registers" are just the first n bytes of RAM, with a special compact addressing mode
23:51:58 <Bike> so in Metroid all your stats were in the zp, as i remember
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00:53:57 <oerjan> <LinearInterpol> http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html <-- hm although both original links are dead, wayback has a younger capture of the esolang one. although they're probably identical code anyway.
00:54:27 <shachaf> http://thue.stanford.edu/puzzle.html
00:55:07 <oerjan> shachaf: seems like a different one
00:58:13 * oerjan updates to use our handy wayback template
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01:00:16 <LinearInterpol> when I was studying the process behind markov algorithms I learned all sorts of cool things you can do using them, even though it is a bit unintuitive at first.
01:02:40 <oerjan> did we point you to /// yet (probably)
01:02:53 * oerjan is heavily biased, of course
01:03:06 <Bike> being biased towards /// is sensible
01:03:32 <oerjan> Bike: it's just asking for a slanted view, really
01:03:34 <Bike> he at least wrote some algorithms
01:03:44 <oerjan> LinearInterpol: not the creator but the main programmer
01:04:02 <olsner> I assume someone's made a \\\ already?
01:04:37 <oerjan> olsner: hm i don't _recall_ so.
01:04:57 <Bike> this might be a good time to mention i'm amazed this channel doesn't have a search-for-esolang function
01:05:13 <Taneb> Anyone knows how unary minus mixes with list subscripts in Python?
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01:05:32 <HackEgo> cat: bin/wiki: No such file or directory
01:05:39 <shachaf> Taneb: the way you'd expect, of course
01:05:44 <oerjan> HackEgo could have had, i guess
01:05:52 <Taneb> shachaf, I mean like -i[0]
01:06:06 <Taneb> Which seems to work the way I expect
01:06:37 <shachaf> (i was thinking of negative indexing, which doesn't actually work the way you'd expect)
01:06:50 <Bike> doesn't it count from the end
01:09:13 <HackEgo> bin/anonlog \ bin/etymology \ bin/log \ bin/logurl \ bin/pastalog \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastlog \ bin/randomanonlog \ bin/searchlog
01:09:26 <Bike> `randomanonlog
01:09:30 <HackEgo> brainfuck can be compiled to machine code.. that's faster
01:09:36 <Bike> `randomanonlog
01:09:46 <HackEgo> Saturday shall be red fedora day!
01:10:04 <HackEgo> (recording my gf, don't worry)
01:10:05 <HackEgo> fizzie: Pls fix with analytical logical skills not zapping
01:10:05 <HackEgo> yes, there are very few of new concepts there. still interesting to write a shortest hello-world and a quine :)
01:10:39 <Bike> what a mysterious function.
01:10:52 <olsner> fungot: why use skills if you can use zapping?
01:10:53 <fungot> olsner: ( define it " want to learn two languages at once, ecraven. internally to t, because fixnums are usually not modified very frequently.
01:11:06 <oerjan> <shachaf> kmc: "new wood stoves" would be a good name for a ban <-- I'LL TRY TO KEEP THAT IN MIND
01:12:25 <shachaf> context: 10:17 <douglass_> I believe SF bans new wood stoves but does not yet require removing existing ones.
01:13:42 <oerjan> you mean it wasn't a typo? freaky.
01:14:34 <shachaf> oerjan: would banning me make you feel better
01:16:53 <oerjan> we're not banning wood stoves in norway yet, but there's some serious environmental pollution control
01:17:41 <oerjan> now the pain killers kicking in otoh...
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01:19:29 <Bike> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/science/earth/outsider-challenges-papers-on-growth-of-dinosaurs.html not all is well in the land of dinos
01:19:40 <Bike> myhrvold sure is an eclectic dude.
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01:24:57 <oerjan> avant-garde cuisine and patent law should _not_ be mixed hth
01:29:28 <Sgeo> "Don't you just change "assertEquals(x, y)" to "it(x).should().equal(y)" ?"
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01:41:32 <kmc> Sgeo: lol now your library is Elegant™
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01:44:33 <Sgeo> (fwiw I just quoted someone replying to PLT_Hulk)
01:44:56 <kmc> Fiora: the thing about stack pointer reminds me of the (admittedly less extreme) hack where Linux puts a task-specific data structure at the end of the 8 kB aligned kernel stack, so you can get its address by masking the stack pointer
01:45:22 <Fiora> so it's like athread local storage type thing with stacks?
01:45:29 <kmc> very useful in exploit code too! :3
01:46:20 <shachaf> does HackEgo have a database of sneaky things like lambdabot does
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01:47:02 <kmc> what's lambdabot's
01:47:08 <lambdabot> dropFromEnd n xs = zipWith const xs (drop n xs)
01:47:10 <lambdabot> lazyReverse xs = go xs (reverse xs) where go (_:xs) ~(y:ys) = y : go xs ys; go [] ~[] = []
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01:48:25 <Sgeo> Is that dropFromEnd supposed to be broken or just clever?
01:48:40 <Sgeo> > zip [1] [1,2]
01:50:07 <Bike> > let xs = [1,2,3,4,5] in zipWith const xs (drop 2 xs)
01:50:17 <oerjan> in particular, it's O(n) space where n is that variable
01:50:28 <shachaf> in particular it works on infinite lists
01:50:40 <Bike> > let xs = [71..] in zipWith const xs (drop 2 xs)
01:50:41 <lambdabot> [71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,...
01:51:53 <oerjan> now someone can explain to me what the point of that lazyReverse is.
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01:52:03 <Bike> > let lazyReverse xs = go xs (reverse xs) where go (_:xs) ~(y:ys) = y : go xs ys; go [] ~[] = [] in lazyReverse [17,2,39]
01:52:04 <shachaf> It works on infinite lists.
01:52:09 <Bike> > let lazyReverse xs = go xs (reverse xs) where go (_:xs) ~(y:ys) = y : go xs ys; go [] ~[] = [] in lazyReverse [17..]
01:52:30 <shachaf> It gives you a cons cell in the result as soon as it sees a cons cell in the input.
01:52:41 <oerjan> shachaf: hm well ok, as long as you don't look at the elements
01:53:11 <shachaf> > let lazyReverse xs = go xs (reverse xs) where go (_:xs) ~(y:ys) = y : go xs ys; go [] ~[] = [] in length . take 5 $ lazyReverse [17..]
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02:02:24 <Bike> hm, psoas, is that just coincidence
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02:37:33 <ion> Finished watching the Freeman’s Mind episodes released so far. ’Twas funneh. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6PNZBb6b9LvDWpI-5CPYUxG1Rnm-vr9V
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02:58:02 <ion> Not sure if real life or The Onion http://www.cbc.ca/thisisthat/blog/2013/12/11/man-emerges-from-bunker-14-years-after-y2k-scare/index.html
02:58:32 <Bike> that was easy.
02:58:49 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
02:59:05 <doesthiswork> so (reset (cons 1 (shift w (cons 5 (w '()))))) => (5 1)
02:59:29 <doesthiswork> should (reset (cons 1 (reset (shift k (k (shift w (cons 5 (w '())))))))) return (5 1) or (1 5)
02:59:44 <doesthiswork> (not which does it, but which would you expect)
03:00:43 <Bike> is there some way to do this in cps instead @_@
03:01:35 <Bike> well it's gibberish so it can't get worse
03:01:40 <Bike> i'm gonna guess (1 5) though
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03:02:18 <Bike> because i'm imagining that the outer "reset" is totally ignored
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03:07:09 <Bike> is the (reset (cons 1 ...)) one like (let ((w (lambda (x) (cons 1 x)))) (cons 5 (w '()))
03:10:26 <doesthiswork> the various delimiting operator differ in how they treat nesting
03:10:37 <Bike> so the latter one is like (cons 1 (let ((k (lambda (x) x))) (let ((w (lambda (x) (k x)))) (cons 5 (w '())))))?
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03:16:56 <doesthiswork> if nested shifts referred to nesting resets it would be equivalent to (let ((w (lambda (a) (cons 1 (let ((k (lambda (b) b))) (k a)))))) (cons 5 (w '())))
03:17:20 <kmc> "Facebook is seeking an experienced Software Engineer to help us port the world’s best PHP run-time on servers based on ARM processor"
03:22:06 <doesthiswork> I'm not sure which regime is more pleasant to use
03:29:30 <coppro> quantum computation is whack
03:29:40 <kmc> quantum PHP
03:32:21 <Bike> and reset and shift are functions right
03:34:55 <Bike> i mean, so you can do stuff like (map reset (list (lambda (f) (f (shift ...))) (lambda () (f (+ 1 (shift ...)))))))))))))))) and /we
03:35:56 <Bike> what a pain in the ass.
03:36:30 <Bike> implementing this sounds annoying.
03:36:58 <Bike> expanding to call/cc?
03:37:40 <doesthiswork> it doesn't allow me to hide the resets in a function though
03:37:54 <Bike> how do you deal with (reset (list #1=(shift k ...) #1#))
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03:41:39 <kmc> lol infinitely large programs
03:41:44 <doesthiswork> (reset (list #1=(shift k (list 1 (k 3))) #1#)) -> (1 (1 (3 3)))
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03:42:33 <Bike> shouldn't hte list be symmetrical?
03:43:15 <doesthiswork> nope, juxtaposition turns into nesting, within a reset
03:44:38 <Bike> so that's what you get from (reset (list (shift a (list 1 (a 3))) (shift b (list 1 (b 3)))))?
03:45:19 <doesthiswork> I think the reader makes removes the cycle when it reads it
03:47:17 <Bike> yeah i don't get this at all. it depends on evaluation order now?
03:48:00 <doesthiswork> the wikipedia page actually explains this one well
03:48:11 <doesthiswork> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delimited_continuation
03:48:51 <kmc> regular continuations expose evaluation order too
03:49:12 <Bike> doesthiswork: where?
03:49:18 <kmc> (let/cc k (+ (k 0) (k 1)))
03:49:27 <Bike> oh well right.
03:49:36 <Bike> i thought delimited continuations didn't, though.
03:50:20 <Bike> props on choosing let/cc
03:50:37 <oerjan> delimited continuations are even _less_ pure
03:51:02 <kmc> thanks Bike
03:51:16 <Bike> doesthiswork: begin has a particular evaluation order, thugh
03:51:34 <kmc> oerjan: how so?
03:51:48 <oerjan> kmc: you can simulate state with them
03:53:11 <oerjan> i don't actually know how it works, i just read you can
03:53:26 <kmc> i think you can do that with normal continuations too
03:53:43 <Bike> fuck this im goin back to pron
03:53:50 <kmc> goin back to prawns
03:53:52 <kmc> you can implement coroutines right
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03:54:07 <kmc> and you can implement a ref cell with a thread and that works even in cooperative threading
03:54:11 <doesthiswork> you need mutable variables to simulated delimited continuations with only undelimited ones
03:55:29 <Bike> not in scheme?
03:56:03 <Bike> well what ever nerd
03:56:17 <kmc> list is a function and so has unspec. eval order in scheme
03:56:58 <doesthiswork> what would be the point of faking delimited continuations in scheme. Someone else has already implemented them
03:57:33 <Bike> because it's a scheme tradition to implement everything a hundred times
03:58:13 <doesthiswork> I suppose it is, they sound like forth-ers in that way.
03:59:26 <doesthiswork> the nice thing about faking with macros is I can see the intermediate steps
04:02:42 <oerjan> argh i forgot to turn off the quick heating mode again
04:03:01 * oerjan cannot even get heating frozen pizza right :P
04:04:00 * pikhq is also eating PB&J.
04:08:08 <oerjan> fortunately it only makes it a bit too charred
04:09:17 <oerjan> quintopia: you really hate charred pizza?
04:10:27 <quintopia> oerjan: i really hate that i can't solve this stupid problem
04:10:48 <oerjan> is it still the git problem
04:11:50 <oerjan> doesthiswork: actually i only eat it once a month or so
04:12:39 <oerjan> i just seem to mention it here, every time.
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04:19:08 <oerjan> @ask Gregor why do you let poor glogbackup outright lie (twice!) in its !logs message
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04:27:51 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> Navier-Stokes sounds sciency <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_existence_and_smoothness
04:30:32 <kmc> <Bike> huh, i didn't know hamilton tried to make 3ions for path finding <-- do you have some link about this?
04:31:40 <quintopia> oerjan: i'm looking for a program that can be proved nonterminating in higher-order logics, but not in ZF/FOL
04:32:09 <quintopia> finding one that is terminating and can't be proved so is easy, but the nonterminating one is killing me
04:32:31 <quintopia> (i say easy because there's a wikipedia article telling how to do it)
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04:33:36 <kmc> biiiiiiiiiike
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04:35:51 <kmc> biiiiiiiiiike
04:36:00 <kmc> get a bouncer or a reliable server
04:36:07 <kmc> <kmc> <Bike> huh, i didn't know hamilton tried to make 3ions for path finding <-- do you have some link about this?
04:36:50 <oerjan> quintopia: searching for an inconsistency in ZF/FOL should do the trick.
04:37:02 <oerjan> (by gödel's second incompleteness theorem)
04:37:18 <Sgeo> Maybe main has the wrong type
04:37:27 <Sgeo> Maybe it should be main :: CompileTimeIO (IO ())
04:37:45 <Sgeo> CompileTimeIO being IO enriched with metaprogramming stuff, perhaps
04:37:50 <oerjan> quintopia: assuming your higher-order logic proves ZF/FOL consistent, that is.
04:38:20 <quintopia> oerjan: so does that mean searching for a proof that ZF is consistent?
04:39:01 <quintopia> oerjan: by checking all proofs to see if they prove it
04:39:34 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icosian_calculus
04:40:02 <oerjan> quintopia: no. searching for a proof it _isn't_.
04:40:42 <oerjan> quintopia: or to be precise, enumerating all theorems of ZF/FOL and halting once you find a contradiction.
04:41:07 <Bike> though i think i might have gotten the order backwards.
04:41:36 <quintopia> oerjan: ah. because there are no contradictions, but ZF doesn't know that. got it.
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04:42:30 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_group#Hyperbolic_plane pretty
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04:45:03 <oerjan> kmc: check out this page then https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_tilings_in_hyperbolic_plane
04:45:33 <oerjan> (discussed here previously iirc)
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04:55:55 <quintopia> oerjan: okay check my latest update on Onoz and make sure i did it right plox kthx
04:58:25 <oerjan> i am coincidenaltiay on the page
04:59:51 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't you can check whether something is a valid godel number of a theorem.
05:00:14 <oerjan> what you need to do is check whether something is a valid godel number of a _proof_.
05:00:35 <oerjan> and whether that proof then ends in a contradiction.
05:01:42 <oerjan> i suppose that's a bit simpler than what i said above
05:02:26 <kmc> more pretty!
05:03:06 <quintopia> oh okay so i could just let S be the program that checks the nth number and whether the result of that proof is that true=false?
05:03:19 <oerjan> yeah that would be enough
05:04:37 <oerjan> the outer loop gives S every number n in order as long as a contradiction isn't found, right?
05:08:13 <oerjan> ok i think the idea is sound as written now.
05:16:12 <oerjan> > compare <$> [(0/0),0] <*> [(0/0),0]
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05:20:58 <quintopia> i feel like we shouldn't have to tag Uncomputable languages as Unimplemented. Uncomputable should be a subcategory of Unimplemented or something.
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05:21:22 <Bike> that sounds like a challenge
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05:22:10 <quintopia> Bike: okay. i'll give you a million dollars for a working implementation of any uncomputable language. :D
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05:49:36 <quintopia> which user was it that put a table of bf interpreter speeds on various problems on their user page?
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05:59:10 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Rdebath#Performance_Matrix
06:03:44 <quintopia> oerjan: i was thinking of david_werecat's bfbench
06:06:26 <lifthrasiir> bcci seems to perform extraordinally in some tests and horribly in others
06:08:11 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck#Interpreter.2Fcompiler_speed_test
06:08:37 <oerjan> "bcci: written to enforce the very strict portability rules of the BCC (a contest), and compute scores. "
06:09:09 <lifthrasiir> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/bcci.c got it.
06:10:06 <Bike> urgh, is sprunge still down
06:10:17 <lifthrasiir> I always wanted to rewrite esotope-bfc for new decades ;)
06:10:44 <lifthrasiir> (and f*ck the python, python really is not a language for writing PL implementations)
06:12:40 <Bike> quintopia: http://pastebin.com/PEpjaJRv that was fun.
06:15:40 <quintopia> yeah. pastie was slightly less annoying ime
06:18:55 <quintopia> Bike: please demonstrate that this implementation works by using it to decide some uncomputable problem
06:19:18 <Bike> psh, what do you take me for? an engineer? i ain't need no tests.
06:20:10 <Bike> if you really wanted you could try a few programs. anything in brainfuck, for example.
06:21:04 <quintopia> please point me to a CLooP interpreter so that i may test it
06:21:47 <Bike> do i gotta do everything
06:22:14 <quintopia> (also you should post it on the wiki if you haven't already. nice program.)
06:22:39 <Bike> i guess i oughta get around to making an account some time
06:23:59 <Bike> nope. i'm a parasite on this channel.
06:24:42 <Bike> @ask ais523 just tested out your account creation question thing. it asked me when Somnypna was created and i said Homfrog and got rejected.
06:28:07 <Bike> urgh, how do you do code blocks
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06:32:45 <quintopia> hmm. why is it that pforeach(infinity) is uncomputable? it seems like it should be possible to have an unbounded number of threads executing concurrently. indeed, executing the first thread on odd cycles, the second on 2 mod 4 cycles, the third on 4 mod 8 cycles, etc. should ensure that every natural numbered thread gets executed an unbounded number of times...
06:33:11 <Bike> it mentions it takes finite time.
06:33:39 <Bike> the language seems maybe 80% baked at best. i just picked the first one in the uncomputable category that looked good.
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06:34:18 <quintopia> yeah but if you picked one that was mislabelled...
06:34:27 <quintopia> then your implementation is broken
06:35:21 <Bike> i shall define DLooP, "like CLooP but works"
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06:36:11 <Bike> i made a mistake anyway.
06:36:44 <quintopia> yeah i think the spec is borked. it doesn't say in the description of pforeach it finishes in finite time no matter what. it just says later it inherently does infinite work in finite time
06:36:57 <Bike> i was going off that.
06:37:06 <Bike> seemed to be the intent since they put it under uncomputable.
06:37:12 <quintopia> well maybe we should just edit the page
06:37:46 <quintopia> to indicate that pforeach is guaranteed to take no longer than a constant times any one thread it is executing
06:38:10 <quintopia> then it will be able to do nondeterminstic computation in hyper mode
06:38:47 <Bike> how about "if the block would halt for any value of the loop variable, the pforeach as a whole will halt."
06:38:54 <Bike> for all values*, rather
06:39:18 <Bike> in the range? probably specify that it just has to be values in the range
06:39:46 <quintopia> that's equivalent to my version, so whatever you like
06:39:59 <Bike> i ain't editing it, i already dida ll this work
06:40:13 <Bike> and i'm depressed since this means i have less excuse to sort out my own ideas enough to put them on the wiki
06:41:41 <Bike> i think i will have to make it graphical and that means mspaint
06:42:44 <Bike> less excuse not to, yeah
06:44:23 <Bike> i'm a bike. i'm incapable of feeling any emotion, let alone excitement.
06:44:58 <Bike> excitement is not a motion
06:45:25 <Bike> yes, the demographics are very skewed towards sapient colors and dryer sheets in this town
06:45:47 <quintopia> so you give everyone a ride for free?
06:45:58 <Bike> if they're polite about it and i'm not busy
06:47:24 <Bike> because the language i'm thinking of would probably be easiest to hammer out as schematics rather than something text-based.
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06:47:48 <quintopia> you could use unicode boxes. i hear that's the cool thing now.
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06:50:51 <quintopia> i'm thinking of making a program which is like mspaint but with unicode
06:51:20 <Bike> wlel i don't have mspaint anyway. this is linux.
07:13:54 <quintopia> oh look someone has made something similar already
07:14:10 <quintopia> i can just steal their code and port it
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07:36:21 <fizzie> Bah, JavE. Truu ANSI artists do it in ACiDDraw.
07:36:33 <fizzie> Or maybe that's "trü".
07:41:03 <kmc> fungot sp.
07:41:03 <fungot> kmc: what have you. you have to
07:43:06 <kmc> fungot: agaricales sensu lato
07:43:06 <fungot> kmc: does it true? how could a glass be yelling??? fnord
07:43:34 <oerjan> you shouldn't feed fungot those agaricales hth
07:43:34 <fungot> oerjan: be without brainfuck code running functionality?
07:44:09 <Bike> so, should i take Category:Unimplemented off of Brainhype
07:45:51 <kmc> oerjan: why not feed fungus to the fungot
07:45:51 <fungot> kmc: still a chance work visa won't go through but it's looking like a lot of languages
07:47:07 <oerjan> kmc: because e's high enough already
07:47:29 <kmc> you just assume the mushrooms i have are hallucinogenic
07:47:34 <fungot> Bike: there must be another one? lol
07:47:35 <kmc> it's like i have a reputation or something
07:48:24 <kmc> we planted a bed of wine caps (Stropharia rugosoannulata) in the backyard today
07:48:33 <kmc> might bear fruits in 4 or 5 months
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08:00:33 <shachaf> p. sure wine bottles don't work that way
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08:19:53 <ion> Pro tip: don’t force a rubber bottle cap in if it’s difficult to get out.
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13:05:04 <boily> good redactyled morning!
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13:34:36 <boily> metasepia is the same as ever.
13:40:31 <boily> pythoning, xmling, javascripting, gitting, teaeing...
13:40:58 <boily> also, not freezing my fungots off. it's cold outside.
13:40:59 <fungot> boily: although i think exists? and suppose it doesnt use and as operators right?
13:41:00 <metasepia> CYUL 171335Z 02007KT 4SM HZ FEW004 FEW090 SCT240 M20/M23 A3022 RMK SF1AC1CI2 SF TR SLP238
13:41:30 <quintopia> yeah i saw the weather reports for your southerly neighbor's frozen northern bits
13:42:48 <metasepia> KBGR 171253Z 00000KT 10SM CLR M24/M27 A3030 RMK AO2 SLP267 T12441272
13:43:00 <boily> eeeek. it's even frozenier in Maine.
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13:45:27 <metasepia> KMHT 171253Z 03005KT 10SM FEW200 FEW250 M18/M22 A3024 RMK AO2 SLP264 T11781217
13:45:59 <boily> it's only tea. I couldn't resist the Appeal of stringing vowels together.
13:47:18 <metasepia> KBTV 171254Z 09004KT 10SM FEW120 M22/M24 A3022 RMK AO2 SLP242 T12171244
13:50:26 <metasepia> EFHK 171320Z 24007KT 9999 FEW014 BKN150 03/01 Q1009 NOSIG
13:50:56 <fizzie> No snow for this christmas season.
13:52:09 <boily> we had a 30 cm snowstorm last Sunday. the City expects it to be shovelled away by next Monday.
13:55:18 <fizzie> On average one out of three christmases are snowless in Helsinki.
13:55:24 <fizzie> Of course this is the south end of Finland.
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13:56:02 <fizzie> metasepia: Well be like that then, see if I care!
13:56:07 <metasepia> EFRO 171350Z AUTO 23011KT CAVOK M04/M04 Q0996
13:56:40 <quintopia> i'm no better at reading those things
13:57:22 <fizzie> Temperature and dew point; with M for a minus sign.
13:57:38 <fizzie> 23011KT means a wind of 11 knots from direction 230.
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14:00:31 <fizzie> And the Q/A part is barometric pressure, with Q denoting some sensible metric unit (millibar?) and A something inch-based.
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14:02:52 <boily> Annnn is inHg, with pressure calibrated for airfield altitude.
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14:03:11 <boily> Qnnnn is pressure in hPa, with pressure calibrated for mean sea level.
14:03:35 <boily> SLPnnn is also in hPa, but with the first digit chopped of, and a precision of daPa.
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14:11:44 <fizzie> Snow depth at EFHK at christmas eve: 2009 30 cm, 2010 40 cm, 2011 0 cm, 2012 55 cm, 2013 most likely 0.
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14:16:55 <quintopia> i'm going to fall asleep in my chair
14:22:14 * boily gently mapoles quintopia to keep him awake.
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15:31:31 <quintopia> well i'm gonna get a passport at least
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15:33:02 <boily> quintopia: oh! will you visit Canada?
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15:35:21 <ais523> <dburrows> I've only done minimal testing on this, so don't use it to fly airplanes (in fact, please don't use /any/ Sudoku player to fly airplanes)
15:35:48 <ais523> @ask Bike were you expecting that to be the correct answer?
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15:48:52 <HackEgo> taylanub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:49:49 <taylanub> Dark blue text on black background isn't very nice.
15:50:17 <HackEgo> taylanub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:02:05 <ais523> I have a ping set on INTERCAL
16:02:09 <ais523> admittedly, it comes up in here more than in other channels
16:02:16 <ais523> but when it comes up elsewhere, I want to be notified
16:02:28 <taylanub> But it seems like 90% of esolangs are brainfuck clones. And maybe unlambda.
16:02:40 <ais523> that's sadly a mostly accurate description
16:02:40 <taylanub> Are there any actually interesting ones ?..
16:02:44 <ais523> yes, they're just hard to find
16:02:47 <ais523> my best is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
16:02:52 <ais523> which is not a brainfuck clone at all
16:03:02 <ais523> there are other interesting languages by other people
16:03:28 <ais523> you can even find interesting brainfuck derivatives if you look hard enough, such as http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust or http://esolangs.org/wiki/Paintfuck
16:03:35 <ais523> but they're much rarer than the uninteresting ones
16:03:51 <ais523> what's that new language by Keymaker? I really like that one
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16:07:47 <taylanub> ais523: Oh shit .. Underload basically coalesces data and program ?
16:08:25 <ais523> the most practical ways of storing data are as program fragments
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16:19:14 <ais523> hmm, I like the ambiguity in the name "LinearInterpol"
16:19:25 <ais523> is it a truncated form of "linear interpolation"?
16:19:42 <ais523> or is it a form of international police who have can only use each datum of information they're given exactly once?
16:20:46 <ais523> yeah, I said I liked it
16:21:10 <fizzie> I've been assuming the latter, FWIW.
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16:22:43 <fizzie> (Perhaps it's some kind of an ad-hoc linguistic interpretation experiment.)
16:23:02 <ais523> fizzie: but you work in linguistics, so you would assume that
16:23:15 <ais523> whereas I went to a bounded linear logic conference recently
16:23:24 * ais523 gives LinearInterpol a bounded exponential comonad
16:24:03 <mrhmouse> it's also an anagram of "I, Patroller Nine".. perhaps your police idea has some weight
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16:28:42 <int-e> less formally, linear interpol may have a one-track mind.
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16:42:37 <quintopia> boily: i'll only come to canada if it's not the french part :D
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16:44:02 <mroman> @tell CADD http://mroman.ch/VA/ <- the documentation of our emulator thingy
16:44:08 <mroman> I think he was called CADD
16:47:13 <mroman> It is called emulathor
16:47:51 <HackEgo> nanii: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:47:59 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
16:48:18 <doesthiswork> @tell lambdabot tell lambdabot tell doesthiswork hi
16:48:28 <boily> quintopia: la partie française est la plus mieux meilleure partie du Canada :P
16:48:50 <nanii> hola soy de venezuela *--*
16:49:53 <mroman> That leaves the question
16:50:38 <quintopia> you need a couple of question marks to ask that
16:50:53 <boily> nanii: hablo un poquito de español. ¿habla usted francés?
16:51:03 <nanii> yo no hablo ingles
16:51:53 <nanii> boily no frances no pero creo que puedo hacer algo
16:52:45 <boily> nanii: ¿ha visitado el wiki?
16:52:56 <mroman> You need even some *** up inversed question marks
16:53:01 <mroman> Just to screw with your mind.
16:53:15 <mroman> Although I can see how they are useful
16:53:27 <mroman> You immediately know that there's a question.
16:53:56 <boily> mroman: not only that, but you can wrap the part of the sentence that is actually a question. same thing with ¡!.
16:54:16 <mroman> Then explain why is there no inversed dot?
16:54:38 * boily twitches... “urge to mapole mroman rising”
16:54:56 <mroman> coincidally I had an oral spanish exam today
16:55:37 <boily> only if you reverse the direction of the morphism between you and the exam.
16:57:03 <mroman> boily: Which wouldn't matter if they're homomorphisms
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16:57:57 <nooodl> In English every odd number contains an `e'.
16:58:27 <boily> in English, every x, y s.t. |x - y| = 1, share a letter.
16:59:29 <Slereah_> Well most numbers contain an e already
16:59:42 <nooodl> http://oeis.org/A006933
16:59:53 <boily> nooodl: ¿qué es un "epaa"?
17:00:17 <int-e> Slereah_: two. a million.
17:00:36 <nanii> pues como un hola :D
17:01:02 <Slereah_> So it's not *too* surprising that those two things are true
17:01:21 <Slereah_> I mean, you only have to do three special cases to check them
17:02:24 <ion> kakka rules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer
17:02:25 <mroman> isomorphisms remind me that I should continue with this category theorey book
17:02:53 <int-e> nooodl: two million then, still no 'e'.
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17:03:06 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/beweise/cat.pdf <- isomorhpisms is where I got stuck apparentely
17:06:01 <mroman> probably the number IN the book
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17:13:01 <Taneb> What's that thing which means that defining notNull = not . null isn't worth it?
17:13:09 <Taneb> Something like the Fairfax constant?
17:15:29 <int-e> the second word was "threshold" but I can't recall the name.
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17:18:11 <ais523> I guess that's checking to see if the list is empty?
17:18:27 <Bike> https://31.media.tumblr.com/3f8a2af848fd54d90f58d4367eee0b7f/tumblr_mxrzs6RsbT1sgh0voo1_500.png it was absolutely useless. thanks
17:18:42 <ais523> hmm, if you had a strict language with side effects, it'd be possible to define that over arbitrary functors
17:19:00 <Bike> ais523: yes, because i wasn't sure about capital letters and the space in the real name
17:19:01 <ais523> by using fmap with a function with a side effect, then checking to see if that function had run at all
17:19:44 <ais523> I don't think it generalizes to functors in general if the language is pure or lazy, though
17:20:56 <int-e> ais523: right. Foldable is the right abstraction here, I think. null = fold (\_ _ -> False) True
17:20:59 <ais523> (if it's lazy, there's nothing implying that it's even possible to force the functors in order to make the functions run; if it's pure, then you need to know about the structure of the functor to have any way to observe the behaviour of your function)
17:22:30 <int-e> (where fold is one of foldr or foldl, not the monoid foundational one from the type class)
17:23:11 <ais523> does it have to be r/l?
17:23:14 <ais523> what about a symmetric fold?
17:23:35 <int-e> fold :: Data.Monoid.Monoid m => t m -> m allows all of those
17:24:08 <oerjan> <nanii> hola soy de venezuela *--* <-- why is it always venezuela
17:25:08 <Bike> well, it's pretty big.
17:25:42 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
17:25:58 <Bike> > fold [3,7,19]
17:25:59 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid a0)
17:26:00 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
17:26:00 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
17:26:00 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
17:26:06 <int-e> @type (\(Endo g) -> g b) . fold . (map (Endo . f))
17:26:23 <int-e> @type \f b -> (\(Endo g) -> g b) . fold . (map (Endo . f))
17:26:33 <int-e> that should be foldr.
17:26:52 <Bike> > fold "Somebody once told me the world is gonna roll me"
17:26:53 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid GHC.Types.Char)
17:26:54 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `Data.Foldable.fold'
17:26:54 <lambdabot> add an instance declaration for (Data.Monoid.Monoid GHC.Types.Char)
17:27:34 <int-e> (and foldl is essentially the same with a 'Dual' thrown into the mix)
17:28:04 <int-e> > fold $ map Sum [1..10]
17:28:18 <int-e> > fold $ map Product [1..10]
17:29:05 <int-e> > getDual . fold . map Dual $ [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6,7,8]]
17:29:44 <int-e> ('fold' on lists of lists is just 'concat')
17:30:49 <int-e> > ($ 0) . appEndo . fold . map (Endo . (+)) $ [1..10]]
17:30:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:52: parse error on input `]'
17:30:51 <int-e> > ($ 0) . appEndo . fold . map (Endo . (+)) $ [1..10]
17:31:27 <int-e> > ($ 0) . appEndo . fold . map (Endo . (-)) $ [1..10]
17:31:39 <int-e> > ($ 0) . appEndo . getDual . fold . map (Dual . Endo . (-)) $ [1..10]
17:31:43 <oerjan> int-e: psst there's foldMap
17:33:32 <int-e> I wonder why. It saves what, 3 characters?
17:33:52 <oerjan> well i think it's a method
17:34:02 <oerjan> so it might also save efficiency
17:34:31 <oerjan> ideally you would want null defined so that it short circuits no matter what way the data structure is folded.
17:34:54 <oerjan> i don't think this can be done with a valid Monoid instance, although you can easily use a broken one
17:35:02 <int-e> > expr . ($ 0) . appEndo . getDual . fold . map (Dual . Endo . (+)) $ [1..6]
17:35:03 <lambdabot> 6 + (5 + (4 + (3 + (2 + (1 + 0)))))
17:35:17 <int-e> > expr . ($ 0) . appEndo . getDual . fold . map (Dual . Endo . flip (+)) $ [1..6]
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17:35:34 <int-e> > expr . ($ 0) . appEndo . fold . map (Endo (+)) $ [1..6]
17:35:35 <lambdabot> -> Data.Monoid.Endo Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.E...
17:35:35 <lambdabot> with actual type `Data.Monoid.Endo a1'
17:35:41 <int-e> > expr . ($ 0) . appEndo . fold . map (Endo . (+)) $ [1..6]
17:35:42 <lambdabot> 1 + (2 + (3 + (4 + (5 + (6 + 0)))))
17:35:45 <oerjan> instance Monoid Bool where mempty = True; mappend = const (const False)
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17:36:20 <oerjan> null = foldMap (const False)
17:36:33 <int-e> ok. so those are foldl and foldr (once you abstract from '0' and '(+)')
17:37:45 <int-e> null = getAny . foldMap (const (Any False))
17:38:22 <int-e> haha. I need getAll / All. That was stupid.
17:39:28 <oerjan> int-e: um Any won't work, the point is mappend should be entirely ignoring its arguments
17:39:51 <oerjan> thus allowing perfect shortcutting regardless of order
17:39:58 <int-e> > map (getAll . foldMap (\_ -> All False)) [[],[1]]
17:40:12 <int-e> oerjan: Bool has no Monoid instance.
17:40:24 <oerjan> int-e: you didn't read what i wrote above
17:41:24 <int-e> In any case, there is a good reason for having the newtype All instead. And the compiler should be smart enough to do the right thing *if* it unfolds the recursive 'foldMap' at all.
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17:41:31 <oerjan> in any case, you _cannot_ do this with a valid Monoid instance, because it's inconsistent with the Monoid laws to have mappend = const (const x) for x not mempty
17:41:33 <Taneb> @type isJust . getFirst . foldMap (First . Just)
17:41:58 <oerjan> int-e: um it should work for _infinite_ structures.
17:42:12 <oerjan> including Foldable infinite trees.
17:42:13 <Taneb> > isJust . getFirst . foldMap (First . Just) $ [1..]
17:42:19 <Taneb> > isJust . getFirst . foldMap (First . Just) $ [
17:42:20 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
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17:42:21 <Taneb> > isJust . getFirst . foldMap (First . Just) $ []
17:42:33 <int-e> > map (getAll . foldMap (\_ -> All False)) [[],[1..]] -- hmm. but I see your point.
17:43:49 <int-e> oerjan: but that means it's not a valid 'null' either. You could have something like data Tree a = Node (Tree a) (Tree a) | Hole | Leaf a, and then null (Tree Hole Hole) should presumably be False.
17:44:28 <Taneb> > isJust . getFirst . foldMap (First . Just) $ unfoldTree (\() -> ((),repeat ()) ()
17:44:29 <int-e> (I imagine that fold (Node l r) = fold l `mappend` fold r)
17:44:29 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
17:44:34 <Taneb> > isJust . getFirst . foldMap (First . Just) $ unfoldTree (\() -> ((),repeat ())) ()
17:44:55 <oerjan> int-e: yes, null (Tree hole hole) would be False with my definition.
17:45:40 <int-e> oerjan: sorry, but I meant to write that null (Tree Hole Hole) should be True.
17:45:42 <oerjan> i suppose that shows how Foldables don't make sense without a true Monoid, though.
17:45:56 <Taneb> Hang on, what are we trying to do here?
17:45:58 * int-e isn't good with negations.
17:46:24 <oerjan> Taneb: writing a Foldable null that short circuits for _both_ infinite leftwards and rightwards structures.
17:47:23 <oerjan> and even infinite binary ones, although int-e makes a good argument there should be _some_ leaves hit
17:48:11 <kmc> http://docs.racket-lang.org/unstable/2d.html
17:49:38 <Bike> kmc: that's something.
17:54:28 <oerjan> int-e: i guess you need a bidirectionally shortcutting (||) for this. (there's some concurrent unsafe implementation of that)
17:55:03 <int-e> oerjan: yes, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/unamb ... it's horrible.
17:55:46 <oerjan> oh unamb it was, i tried searching for amb
17:56:03 <int-e> ( a ||| b = (a || b) `unamb` (b || a) )
17:56:40 <oerjan> it should work nicely for purely left or rightward branching, i think.
17:57:06 <int-e> Well, 'nicely' ... it forks too much.
17:57:27 <oerjan> well i mean one of them will finish fast
17:58:09 <int-e> It's a bit of a pity that concurrency is (as far as I can see) the only way to implement such a function. It's so nice in theory.
17:58:13 <oerjan> hm i suppose what you want to do is ensure each of a and b is only evaluated once. i think there's a ghc function for that.
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17:59:01 <int-e> ghc's runtime almost always ensures that, because thunks are replaced by black holes when entered. There's a small window where computations may get duplicated.
17:59:39 <oerjan> i suppose the problem appears when both a and b take long to finish, hm
17:59:47 <oerjan> which doesn't shortcut much :P
18:00:08 <int-e> (In IO there is 'nodup' which fully ensures this, by taking a lock on the closure. It's required to make unsafePerformIO a bit safer.)
18:00:50 <kmc> i wrote a bunch of words about that here http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2011/10/thunks-and-lazy-blackholes-introduction.html
18:02:08 <ais523> yay, I finally managed to reproduce that bizarre situation that I set up with weboflies a while ago: http://sprunge.us/fLSN
18:02:18 <ais523> however, ptrace has since been fixed to not override SIGKILL
18:02:30 <ais523> so it doesn't lead to an actually unkillable process
18:02:35 <kmc> Death under ptrace
18:03:02 <int-e> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/8502 was my last encounter with the perils of unsafeDupablePerformIO (which is unsafePerformIO without the 'nodup' lock)
18:03:45 <ais523> int-e: isn't that pretty much asking for your I/O to happen an unpredictable number of times?
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18:04:48 <ais523> I guess I might not have guessed "non-integer", though
18:05:28 <int-e> ais523: yes. but it wasn't asking for the computation to be silently stopped in the middle, circumventing the 'withMVar' abstraction for exception safety.
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18:06:29 <Bike> ilu exponentiation
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18:06:33 <ais523> huh, somehow I didn't imagine Haskell to have two different exponentiation operators
18:06:47 <int-e> ais523: it has three :)
18:06:55 <int-e> @type ((^),(^^),(**))
18:06:56 <lambdabot> (Floating a2, Fractional a1, Integral b, Integral b1, Num a) => (a -> b -> a, a1 -> b1 -> a1, a2 -> a2 -> a2)
18:07:33 <int-e> (^^ allows negative integer exponents)
18:08:15 <metasepia> Error (1): Precedence parsing error
18:08:15 <metasepia> cannot mix `GHC.Real.^^' [infixr 8] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infix expression
18:08:18 <ais523> so "b" isn't a "PositiveIntegral" type, then?
18:08:35 <ais523> admittedly, the only language I can think of where that works is ADA (and VHDL by implication)
18:08:36 <Bike> sounds like *gasp* subtyping
18:08:57 <metasepia> Error (1): *Exception: Negative exponent
18:09:52 <boily> ~eval (2 :+ 3) ** (3 :+ 2)
18:09:53 <metasepia> 4.714143528054687 :+ (-4.569827583124736)
18:09:54 <int-e> > (-5) ** (-2) -- hmm.
18:10:30 <fungot> boily: scheme evaluation order, so it probably isn't).
18:10:46 <boily> lambdabot: fungot sez that 0 ** 0 isn't 1.0.
18:10:46 <fungot> boily: best would be if it wasn't clear
18:11:02 <boily> fungot: of course it isn't clear, it's 0⁰.
18:11:02 <fungot> boily: my computer's too sleepy. i am always looking at source code by mistake and even more fun than coding". perfect industrial language: enforce a style onto the programmer to give the standard bindings the extended meanings from srfi 1
18:14:18 <lambdabot> (Fractional a1, Integral b, Integral b1, Num a) => (a -> b -> a, a1 -> b1 -> a1)
18:16:15 <fizzie> Oh, the type was already there.
18:16:31 <fizzie> Bah, reading more than a dozen line backwards is for losers.
18:16:59 <FreeFull> 0 to the power of 0 is or isn't 1 depending on what you're doing
18:17:40 <ais523> it's never anything other than 1, but it isn't necessarily always 1 either
18:17:57 <fizzie> fungot: Your computer doesn't really have any kind of power management thing going on, I don't see how it's "too sleepy".
18:17:57 <fungot> fizzie: so, where's your editor?
18:18:09 <fizzie> fungot: Is this some kind of trash talk?
18:18:09 <fungot> fizzie: maybe you need another half a dozen city centers
18:18:28 <Bike> assuming the fungotputer is just strapped right to mains
18:18:29 <fungot> Bike: cl definitely defines ' first'. although there is also a director who makes videos for people like smerdyakov climb up and spend their time in irc rooms dedicated to technical computery subjects, have never heard of
18:19:08 <boily> that really did not help.
18:19:26 <fizzie> The fungotputer goes at 3200 bogomips all the time.
18:19:27 <fungot> fizzie: don't think so... i haven't been
18:19:40 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, well, how'd *you* know?
18:19:40 <fungot> fizzie: after that i can see the rules of static typing that i've ever known him too well, only 2 hours to find i had like 10k lines of pretty slick c o.o
18:20:28 <fizzie> Truth revealed: fungot not written in Befunge, fungot instead written as 10k lines of "pretty slick" C.
18:20:29 <fungot> fizzie: i am adding that now. i'm gonna install freebsd once i find fnord
18:21:04 <fizzie> (Some day I'll wake up to find a FreeBSD installation.)
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18:21:20 <boily> fungot: find: "fnord": Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type
18:21:21 <fungot> boily: i am a person with the most recent one?
18:21:22 <FreeFull> Are the 10k lines actually an implementation of befunge?
18:21:27 <boily> fungot: oh. savvy of you.
18:21:28 <fungot> boily: it's about to become negative for the first fnord return value' value doesn't print like that when reading
18:22:00 <int-e> I wonder what fungot thinks about 'Qzyzzalroum'
18:22:00 <fungot> int-e: so it could be anywhere from 29 bits to 36 with that information. for example, you have 1 message.
18:22:46 <fizzie> FreeFull: cfunge's written in C, and is approximately somewhere in that ballpark, so maybe that's what it was talking about. (Straight "wc -l" over all *.[ch] says 20039.)
18:22:54 <int-e> (I have this quote on file: What does "Qzyzzalroum" mean in English usage? -- It means you should start the crossword over.)
18:26:37 <int-e> http://users.iafrica.com/p/pf/pfm/quotes.txt - this would fit here, I think: "I feel like if Atlanta had just tried a little harder it could have been a palindrome."
18:27:14 <FreeFull> I can see why it's not a palindrome
18:28:01 <FreeFull> Now, why isn't palindrome a palindrome?
18:28:11 <ion> Super-strong neodymium magnets https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5Q6sbgSWtxn-CTaTLslOy558OrEwmX7U
18:28:20 <Bike> because it is constructed from usual roots.
18:29:29 <boily> Authentic Atlantan Usual Root, perfect for seasoning your regular meals!
18:29:51 <fizzie> If Eodermdrome had just tried a little harder it could have been a palindrome.
18:30:16 <ais523> fizzie: it couldn't be minimal-length and also a palindrome
18:30:34 <ais523> actually, being a palindrome is actively hostile to being nonplanar
18:30:38 <Bike> ion: haha the second one
18:30:44 <ais523> because half the characters are wasted
18:30:52 <ais523> so you can't do better than Eodermdromemordmredoe
18:31:35 <fizzie> Where did the name come from, again?
18:34:44 <Bike> wow they have same day delivery
18:34:49 <Bike> for uh, magnets. emergency magnets?
18:35:53 <Bike> i'm pretty sure you could make a good action movie about most situations that would require you have a 300 N neodynium magnet within twenty-four hours
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18:37:57 <boily> if you already have an already strong enough magnet at hand, you could acquire all of the world's magnets just by waving it over your head and ducking.
18:39:21 <Bike> see, there you go.
18:40:01 <ais523> Bike: I don't think the waving and ducking would matter much
18:40:26 <ais523> fizzie: a book about wordplay, which mentioned an existing result (from somewhere else) that that pattern of letters was the shortest that lead to a nonplanar graph
18:40:47 <ais523> the specific letters there are chosen to maximise the pronounceability
18:41:19 <ais523> (by the original result, I think)
18:42:01 <ais523> strangely enough, real words tend to be more likely to be nonplanar due to embedding K_3,3 than they are due to embedding K_5
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19:05:26 <ais523> huh, so it seems that the reason that function names in PHP are so inconsistent is that they were chosen to avoid hash collisions in the early versions
19:05:37 <ais523> and the hash function was heavily based on strlen
19:06:14 <ais523> yeah, somehow that manages to fit two awful ideas into one sentence
19:06:29 <Bike> look i've heard that from three different people already and if i refused to acknowledge it from them i'll refuse to acknowledge it from you
19:07:29 <kmc> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/e8k4n2mx1y5vsa4/Zrzut%20ekranu%202013-12-17%2008.37.01.png screenshot of the code in question
19:07:42 <kmc> go find "php-1.99s" if you want to verify
19:08:05 <ais523> is a screenshot of code somehow more authentic than the text version?
19:08:24 <Bike> fuuuuuuuucking chrsut
19:08:41 <kmc> ais523: i can tell by the pixels
19:08:55 * boily then maple syrups himself, for a smooth, perfumed skin and quality hair
19:09:24 <ais523> ouch, those keys aren't even in alphabetical order
19:09:31 <olsner> nice, defined as an array cmd_table[22][35] so that the 0 items for length 0 take the space of 35 entries
19:09:46 <kmc> rasmus lerdorf's excuse that he just made PHP for his own use indicates a shocking lack of self-respect, I would say
19:10:23 <ais523> now I'm reminded of the joke claim that "C" is a recursive acronym
19:10:26 <fizzie> The screenshot doesn't really look like proof of the claim, though.
19:10:33 <Bike> i don't want to look into lerdorf's mind
19:10:37 <ais523> fizzie: the comment at the top is illuminating
19:11:05 <fizzie> ais523: It doesn't say anything about selecting function names in order to optimize the "hash" table, however.
19:11:16 <kmc> C stands for C.C
19:11:17 <boily> ais523: a recursive acronym of?
19:11:44 <ais523> boily: it stands for "C", obviously
19:12:13 <ais523> fizzie: there's an email from Rasmus Lerdorf going around on Reddit where he/she admits to it
19:12:18 <kmc> Bike: No manual entry for chrsut
19:12:31 <fizzie> ais523: Well, that's more relevant, certainly.
19:13:21 <kmc> don't think it's in question that rasmus lerdorf goes by "he"
19:13:37 <kmc> also he was born in a town named Qeqertarsuaq
19:13:56 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qeqertarsuaq#Notable_current.2Fformer_residents how very sad for them
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19:16:33 <boily> I watche that short video by the beeb yesterday that explains how to pronounce Mandela's name, his native village's name and “xhosa”.
19:16:50 <boily> practicing clicks when you take your morning shower makes for a very strange activity.
19:16:56 <Bike> does english even have the hponeme for 'xhosa'
19:17:02 <Bike> i'll take that as a no.
19:17:25 <Bike> and it's tonal too, huh
19:17:43 <Bike> i'm used to click constants being spelled ! or double dagger
19:18:17 <Bike> i'm guessing i can blame dumb brits for this
19:18:24 <boily> darn. I don't have superscript h readily available.
19:18:32 <olsner> ah, but only two tones, even we have that many tones
19:18:56 * boily eyes olsner... “you scandinavian!”
19:19:23 <olsner> holy crap... it has *18* click consonants
19:19:48 <boily> it does. it is insane. I need a fternooner to collect myself.
19:22:07 <kmc> Bike: https://twitter.com/DanaDanger/status/413024939856244736
19:25:49 <olsner> "the ǃXóõ language has 83 click sounds, the largest consonant inventory of any known language" o.O
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19:28:34 <olsner> ah, no, five vowel "qualities" ... so 25-30 something vowels apparently
19:29:48 <impomatic> Hi :-) Any OMEGA players here? (The tank programming game, not the roguelike)
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19:42:29 <oerjan> metasepia: it's all greek to you?
19:44:08 <metasepia> iota definition: the 9th letter of the Greek alphabet.
19:44:21 <fungot> boily: c++ c, remember a bit better for the body in the clause test specifications?
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19:54:07 <boily> “Therefore Moser's number, although incomprehensibly large, is vanishingly small compared to Graham's number” ← my brain hurts.
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19:56:06 <Bike> not your fault > is hard to compute on some reprsentations
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20:09:23 <int-e> oh that sounds like fun
20:14:42 <`^_^v> What programming language should you use in your battles with the judge? Most likely, the language which you know best. The judge currently accepts programs written in C, C++, Pascal, and Java, so your favorite language is probably available.
20:16:09 <ais523> that's a really small set to include everyone's favourite language
20:16:19 <ais523> also, I thought Pascal had mostly fallen out of favour before Java was invented
20:16:41 <`^_^v> there are only like 2 online coding competition sites that have an actual variety of languages
20:17:23 <ais523> have you seen anarchy golf?
20:18:31 <ais523> that seems to accept anything remotely BF-complete that shinh could get to run on the server
20:18:53 <nooodl> should finish my anagol language
20:19:07 <ais523> and some sub-BF-complete languages like m4
20:20:08 <nooodl> that reminds me: hey, what are some well-known but not 100% trivial sequences/sets of integers. i'm thinking like, fibonacci numbers, prime numbers
20:20:46 <ais523> that's a neat one because it needs infinite state to compute
20:21:27 <ais523> although I guess they all do
20:22:07 <ais523> you could also do the zeros of the Riemann zeta function
20:22:13 <ais523> that's probably just -2, -4, -6, -8, etc.
20:26:22 <nooodl> i think i'm gonna give my golf language some built-ins for "is this number prime/fibonacci/..." and "generate the first n prime/fibonacci/... numbers"
20:26:47 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
20:26:49 <nooodl> stuff like that shows up quite a bit in code golf
20:27:02 <boily> someone know how to import a TTF file into LaTeX?
20:27:07 <nooodl> also i wanna somehow make 2D ascii manipulation easier, but
20:27:34 <FreeFull> Digits of pi are pretty arbitrary
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20:46:04 <boily> (meanwhile, it works! local install, no need to pollute the system texmf → http://fachschaft.physik.uni-greifswald.de/~stitch/ttf.html)
20:47:06 <nooodl> have there been any efforts to make like a "high-level" wrapper over LaTeX
20:47:25 <nooodl> it feels so crufty... i need LaTeX coffeescript basically
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20:53:25 <kmc> douglass_: do you know of any?
21:00:24 <Taneb> I'm really looking forward to the film of Into the Woods
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21:03:18 <kmc> nooodl: well I use Markdown for that sometimes, via Pandoc
21:03:35 <kmc> and you can still embed LaTeX commands for stuff Markdown doesn't handle (as long as you don't need to render the same markdown to HTML too)
21:04:40 <doesthiswork> bike if we add a shift0 operator that creates a continuation that takes no arguments, then there is a 1 to 1 corrispodence between delimited continuations and lambda calc
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21:23:20 <Taneb> I think I have a bouncer now
21:25:59 <boily> ♪ dĩng ♪ improved PDF, now with Old Hylian!
21:27:23 <Taneb> `? category theory
21:27:25 <HackEgo> In category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories.
21:28:12 <Bike> as opposed to a theory in the category of prizewinning hams?
21:28:30 <Taneb> That'd be Hexham theory
21:28:39 <Slereah_> Is this related to the ham Homer Simpson won for saving the town
21:30:43 <Slereah_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYjThRj7uoY
21:31:36 <boily> incidentally, github's syntax highlighting doesn't support \verb!stuff!
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21:32:32 <kmc> FreeFull: you can compute the nth digit of pi in base 16 without computing all the ones before it
21:32:36 <boily> `relcome 36DABZBGX
21:32:38 <HackEgo> 36DABZBGX: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:33:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula
21:33:08 <boily> also, I seem to have lumped lexande and monotone's quotes into the Quotes from Other People section.
21:33:18 <boily> @tell lexande would you like your quotes to be nicely sectionned?
21:33:31 <polytone> It's okay, I'm usually an "other people" anyway.
21:33:33 <boily> polytone: same thing as to lexande ↑
21:33:47 <boily> you were quicker than me :P
21:34:13 <polytone> I forgot that I was even quoted until you mentioned it, haha.
21:34:22 <Bike> kmc: hells yea pslq
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21:35:19 <Bike> "The search procedure consists of choosing a range of parameter values for s, b, and m, evaluating the sums out to many digits, and then using an integer relation finding algorithm (typically Helaman Ferguson's PSLQ algorithm) to find a vector A that adds up those intermediate sums to a well-known constant or perhaps to zero."
21:35:44 <Bike> it's an algorithm where you throw a vector of reals at it and it tries to find an algebraic relation between em
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21:36:04 <Bike> er, without powers specifically
21:36:18 <Bike> i mean you can do that by adding to the vector, but
21:36:36 <kmc> oh LLL is another such algorithm
21:36:49 <kmc> i've heard of that one, I guess it's good for attacking groups of related RSA keys?
21:38:05 <Bike> i have this paper where they use it to find the 240-degree polynomial the fourth bifurcation point of the logistic map is a root of
21:38:19 <kmc> is that useful knowledge
21:38:20 <elliott> "A notable success of this approach was the use of the PSLQ algorithm to find the integer relation that led to the Bailey-Borwein-Plouffe formula for the value of π." whoa, cool
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21:39:00 <Bike> kmc: well, they didn't even know for sure it was algebraic, so i guess
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21:39:49 <Fiora> PSLQ is really magic
21:39:59 <Fiora> "here's a random irrational-looking number, give me a formula for it"
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21:40:12 <Bike> elliott, kmc~ http://crd.lbl.gov/~dhbailey/dhbpapers/tenproblems.pdf
21:40:21 <Bike> http://crd.lbl.gov/~dhbailey/dhbpapers/tenproblems.pdf
21:40:22 <Fiora> yeah, that paper is amazing
21:42:04 <Bike> with guest appearance by khinchin's constant, i might add
21:43:09 <Bike> it's cool how we can't spell russian names consistently. ever. at all. fuck
21:43:30 <kmc> Хи́нчин's constant
21:43:35 <kmc> cooler name imo
21:43:36 <doesthiswork> analyzing the simpsons for esoteric symbols http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLzhuUdycYQ
21:44:03 <Bike> kmc: i think you're right
21:44:26 <Bike> though my favorite value in this paper is the expected value of the distance between two random points on different sides of a square, since it doesn't sound like it should be too strange
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21:48:02 <Bike> there's also the sequence of sinc integrals and a triple integral of the inverse of a sum of cosines somehow involving generalized hyperfactorials, i love it <3
21:54:14 <Slereah_> Or how e^pi - pi is NOT QUITE 20
21:54:33 <Bike> i don't think that's actually in the paper, but sure!
21:54:51 <olsner> Slereah_: the amazing thing is that 20 is EXACTLY 20
21:55:12 <Bike> can you prove it,
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21:56:15 <olsner> nah, I've never learned how to prove stuff
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22:03:42 <polytone> The first problem in experimental mathematics is apparently not overfilling LaTeX boxes...
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22:07:33 <polytone> Oh, the author line runs straight into the right margin.
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22:16:14 <FreeFull> kmc: I bet you can do that in every base, but 16 is the easiest
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22:58:30 <ion> http://youtu.be/YA1J-raGinQ
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00:53:55 <Bike> "Eventually I noticed that the longer the machine had been powered down before I tried to boot, the more likely it was to boot correctly." OS programming is scary
00:54:12 <Bike> also i didn't know vaurora had a twitter hells yea
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00:55:06 <Bike> "I used the BIOS to dump the DRAM (memory) on the machine and noticed that each time I dumped the memory, more and more bits were zeroes instead of ones. Of course I knew intellectually that DRAM loses data when you turned the power off" oh god, what the fuck
00:58:36 <kmc> her personal twitter is protected and I'm too shy to like apply for membership
00:59:32 <Bike> luckily, i'm too unthinking to not apply for membersip.
01:00:03 <kmc> i should give more money to Ada Initiative
01:00:08 <kmc> and you should all give money to OpenHatch: http://openhatch.org/donate/
01:00:30 <Bike> if she looks at my twitter she's just gonna see a buncha nonsense tho
01:01:13 <Bike> hm, sketch of a penguin. that's hard to turn down
01:01:38 <olsner> Bike: hmm, what's the "what the fuck" in that quote?
01:01:50 <Bike> olsner: that this was relevant to software
01:03:18 <Bike> i think i'll drop a few bucks at openhatch once i have an address again. i could go for more stickers. i wonder if they're nice vinyl ones
01:06:40 <olsner> hmm, my system is spending 1% of (non-idle) cpu time in memchr
01:07:06 <Bike> too bad i don't have an income again :V
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01:15:46 <madbr> I think I've figured out how to do single line iterations
01:16:31 <madbr> If a line contains, say, $ in front of a variable, build a for loop with it
01:17:11 <madbr> start the variable at 0, increment it by 1 every iteration... the only thing you're missing is a stop condition
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01:17:24 <Bike> what are you talking about
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01:18:15 <madbr> for(n=0; ????; n++) { vector[n] += 5; }
01:18:18 <Bike> is this novel syntax for some system yu're coming up with because i already hate it
01:18:52 <madbr> trying to figure out the shortest possible syntax for iterations over vectors
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01:19:20 <elliott> I think you're on the path to reinventing APL. or SIMD.
01:19:28 <Bike> yes please skip to that part
01:19:45 <kmc> "or the List monad"
01:19:50 <madbr> not familiar with APL. SIMD is something else.
01:20:14 <Bike> > map (+5) [3,1,18]
01:20:21 <elliott> well, you'll eventually end up with "vector += 5" if you go down this route really
01:20:22 <madbr> it's mostly inspired by logical programming tbh
01:20:32 <elliott> and then if you get up to "vec1[$n] += vec2[$n]", etc...
01:20:34 <madbr> elliott : that's the idea
01:20:34 <Bike> now replace "map" with the Prince symbol and you've got APL
01:20:54 <elliott> Bike: no, APL/J/etc. would just use + directly
01:20:58 <elliott> that's kinda the point of array programming
01:20:59 <madbr> actually "vec1[$n] += vec2[$n]" is a good example
01:21:05 <Bike> elliott: stfu nerd
01:21:34 <Bike> what's the infinite five operator
01:21:37 <jconn> elliott: |domain error
01:21:37 <jconn> elliott: | vec1 .=vec1+vec2
01:21:59 <Bike> how come you did .= instead of =:... right.
01:22:20 <madbr> should translate to for(n=0; n<vec1.size() && n<vec2.size(); n++) { vect1[n] += vect2[n]; }
01:22:48 <Bike> i hate to say this ut have you ever used matlab because its syntax does all this and is already infinite worse/more useful than yours
01:22:51 <elliott> ok but, that's literally what APL/J/etc. do behind the hood for vec1 + vec2 :P
01:22:57 <elliott> oh. matlab is another good example of this kind of thing, yeah
01:23:07 <madbr> the problem with map is that you end up with, well, the rest of functional programming :D
01:23:09 <elliott> I guess the difference with SIMD is that the vectors are always fixed-size
01:23:21 <elliott> afaik J has no explicit "map", and not really first class functions
01:23:23 <madbr> SIMD is really an acceleration technique
01:23:25 <elliott> it's not a functional language really at all
01:23:39 <Bike> "function-level programming"!
01:23:48 <Bike> i'm pretty sure apl has map though
01:24:21 <madbr> you're not meant to program in SIMD except for like inner loops in like the few remaining places where it counts these days
01:24:55 <Bike> that's not elliott's point. elliott's point was "gee that does operations across a vector too hm relevant"
01:25:01 <Bike> my elliott impression righ tthere
01:25:10 <madbr> and it's always contained in normal loops anyways since you rarely ever really process 4 item loops
01:25:18 <Bike> oh, apl even has a map /syntax/
01:25:25 <Bike> "Expressions such as ⌽[i]a and +/[i]a and +\[i]a apply the (possibly derived) function preceding the brackets “along axis i” of the argument a . "
01:25:26 <elliott> map is implicit in APL probably?
01:27:29 <madbr> basically I need a syntax that's usable within a curly brace language :D
01:28:02 <elliott> isn't matlab curly brace? or at least close to it
01:28:09 <Bike> something like that yeah
01:28:09 <kmc> burly case
01:28:55 <madbr> you could have a bunch of built in array process functions but in curly brace languages they are rarely flexible enough
01:28:57 <Bike> it's actually dependent on whitespace because that's great i guess.
01:29:20 <Bike> madbr: seriously, in matlab you can do shit like foo(bar) where foo and bar are both matrices and it does some fucking indexing thing.
01:29:45 <Bike> and you can have that as an lvalue and bla bla bla
01:30:40 <Bike> yes and that's what madbr is going for here
01:31:20 <madbr> no I'm just trying to figure out a way to add a shortcut for loops over vectors in curly brace languages
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01:32:07 <Bike> and i'm telling you this is it.
01:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> speaking of php, apparently it originally used strlen() on function names as a hash
01:32:43 <madbr> functionally it has to compile into some variant of for(int i=x; i<y; i++){ stuff(); }
01:37:38 <madbr> doesn't seem to automatically produce loops, it seems to just have matrices as a primitive type and has prelooped operations on them for you
01:37:48 <madbr> but I could be wrong
01:38:18 <Bike> so, what, your big huge difference here is inlining?
01:38:41 <madbr> the difference is that a loop can have all sorts of flow control
01:39:05 <madbr> and partial value changes etc
01:39:21 <madbr> also it's not a physical value that has to be stored
01:41:28 <madbr> it can be just as dumb as C++'s for(;;), as long as it has less typing
01:52:12 <madbr> this is not what matlab does, from what I can tell in what I'm reading right now (never used matlab)... basically it has a bunch of operators that works on matrices
02:02:35 <Bike> http://eighteenthelephant.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/another-bad-graph/
02:07:43 <madbr> apl is also a language that operates on arrays with a bunch of operators
02:08:02 <madbr> none of your examples of "this already exists" really applies
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02:47:36 <quintopia> and you are named work that does this
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02:49:04 <doesthiswork> actually I got frustrated when signing up for freenode so my name is a question
02:50:05 <quintopia> no it isn't. you can't have a question without a question mark
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02:53:16 <quintopia> Bike: thanks for the dedication. now WHERE ARE ALL YOUR OTHER IDEAS YOU WERE GOING TO POST NOW THAT YOU MADE AN ACCOUNT?
02:53:45 <Bike> uh excuse me it's /one/ idea!! and it isn't presentable.
02:56:20 <Bike> fire control computers
02:57:15 <Bike> initially i was thinking it would be like verilog, but there's a whole fuckton to specify
02:57:39 <Bike> since i was thinking below, uh, register-transfer level, for lack of a better... everything
02:58:22 <quintopia> so a lang where you hook up all those ffc components, and each one is minimally configurable in behavior?
02:58:46 <Bike> oh, fire control computer
02:59:50 <Bike> but like, take a gear. specifying tooth size we probably don't want, but you'd get pretty different behavior from the spacing (you can make a discretizer thing like a clock)
03:00:08 <Bike> and/or you can have the driveshaft (if there even is a driveshaft) somewhere other than the center
03:01:06 <Bike> i mean you could model on a higher level but at that point it's almost practical.
03:01:24 <Bike> also, 3d cams. don't even want to think about em
03:01:35 <quintopia> s/practical/actually implementable
03:02:00 <quintopia> 3d cams should be easier than some other things actually
03:02:21 <quintopia> they only have on moving part: the function f(theta,x)
03:04:10 <Bike> i mean for practicality i'd just use shannon
03:04:45 <Bike> shannon's system, where you just specify linkages between integrators and differentials and constant-speed drives
03:04:47 <quintopia> the grooved gears are also fairly straightforward.
03:04:58 <Bike> but at that point why not just write out the equation
03:06:09 <Bike> was that a 300 reference
03:12:22 <Sgeo> Husk Scheme's Haskell FFI only works with Haskell functions of a specific type
03:12:30 <Sgeo> This seems like a Haskell-y limitation to impose on it
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04:09:44 <kmc> "Tourist walks off pier while checking Facebook page"
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05:49:36 <oerjan> <polytone> The first problem in experimental mathematics is apparently not overfilling LaTeX boxes... <-- ah memories
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06:16:49 <fizzie> Overfull \hbox (0.76785pt too wide)!
06:49:01 <fizzie> TIL: Hackage has "dbus-core", "dbus" and "DBus", all different. And all having modules named DBus.*. (AFAICT, "dbus" is a direct sequel of "dbus-core", a pure-Haskell DBus protocol implementation, while "DBus" is a FFI-based binding on the native DBus libraries.)
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06:55:17 <fizzie> All of them have a different API, of course.
06:55:40 <oerjan> always plural interfaces
06:55:46 <fizzie> (Though the one in dbus is a reasonable, simplified descendant of dbus-core.)
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06:57:25 <kmc> <kmc> i have been paid to write perl, haskell, c, c++, java, assembly, shell, make, rust, javascript, prolly some others
06:57:30 <kmc> i forgot PHP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06:58:15 <kmc> also python and ruby jeez
06:58:16 <fizzie> Have you been paid to specifically write in each of those things, or has it been the case of "write with whatever you want as long as it makes some sort of sense"?
06:58:42 <kmc> some of each
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06:59:55 <fizzie> Does changing your XMonad config while at work count as being paid to write Haskell?
07:00:17 <kmc> i did two summers of undergrad research, the first summer i wrote everything in perl, then I learned Haskell so I used it for everything the second summer
07:00:22 <kmc> i hope this was considered an improvement
07:01:02 <kmc> fizzie: sure
07:01:35 <kmc> pretty sure i also used ghci for some misc data munging somewhere along the way
07:01:51 <kmc> i started writing an improved object file diff tool in Haskell for Ksplice but never finished it
07:03:26 <fizzie> I've had fungot join the IRC channel of our research group, does that count as being paid to write Funge-98? (Perhaps not quite.)
07:03:26 <fungot> fizzie: yeah i know, but lament and fizzie are around. or e-mail me.
07:03:54 <fizzie> fungot: Do you even have an email account?
07:03:55 <fungot> fizzie: or you could put it more formally designated as ieee 1003 and the international reach that only we are positioned to provide!
07:04:44 <fizzie> To quote oerjan, OKAY.
07:06:14 <fizzie> `run addquote '<oerjan> OKAY' # ThereIsNoSuchThingAsNotability
07:09:56 <oerjan> fungot is in that generation that prefers twitter to email
07:09:56 <fungot> oerjan: the fnord returns some error code, after all, she is!"" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord:
07:14:40 <fizzie> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/LNdZ
07:21:19 <fizzie> Oh no I disregarded LOWER CASE.
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07:24:24 <fizzie> o'kay this was much more interest-ing http://sprunge.us/XBHK
07:27:07 <oerjan> i do not recall some of these.
07:27:24 <oerjan> doesthiswork: no, i'm a filthy law breaker hth
07:27:40 <shachaf> oerjan: plz disable the hth disabler thx
07:28:10 <oerjan> shachaf: careful, elliott might ban you
07:28:30 <oerjan> (not really, he's getting mellow with age)
07:28:40 <shachaf> oerjan: imo he doesn't even go on irc anymore
07:30:02 <HackEgo> 2013-12-18 01:28:02: <elliott> isn't matlab curly brace? or at least close to it
07:30:17 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Tue Dec 17 23:30:14 2013
07:30:20 <shachaf> well he'll say something in the future
07:30:23 <shachaf> that doesn't mean anything
07:30:51 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
07:30:52 <oerjan> shachaf: just after banning you, probably
07:31:35 <oerjan> although how he'll do it with matlab i don't know
07:31:55 <Bike> that's the beauty of matlab.
07:33:27 <fizzie> It's MATLAB not matlab you heathens.
07:33:41 <fizzie> That's like saying "god" instead of "GOD".
07:33:54 <Bike> i do that all the time.
07:34:37 <fizzie> Hey, is YHWH short for Yes, He Would Help? How appropriate.
07:35:46 <fizzie> Given the temperament of the old testament god, perhaps "appropriate" is not quite the right word, I don't think he's very keen on helping in general.
07:38:43 <oerjan> yes, hell wants humans
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07:54:16 <fizzie> Wow, someone's actually using the while (i --> 0) spelling. I thought that was a myth.
07:56:01 <kmc> a tale told to frighten small children
07:56:09 <kmc> who is using it?
07:56:32 <fizzie> <Chetic> is there a way to declare "i" inside while() in this example?: int i = 8; while (i --> 0) printf("%d ", i);
07:57:06 <shachaf> p. sure they are either joking or being joked at
07:57:17 <kmc> i'm gonna go with "no"
07:58:00 <fizzie> Yeah, well, that's not acceptable for some reason.
07:58:17 <Bike> very imrotant that we use a while
07:58:38 <fizzie> See http://sprunge.us/IjNY
07:59:19 <kmc> what does /wrist mean... oh
08:00:00 <olsner> I use while (i--) pretty often
08:00:12 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, but do you use The Arrow?
08:00:37 <olsner> only in java (because you have to)
08:01:07 <Bike> what's it mean
08:01:10 <fizzie> It's the best, because after something like i = 42; while (i --> 0) ... your not-familiar-with-C readers will be tempted to do i = 0; while (i --> 42) ... too.
08:01:23 <Bike> flipping them off?
08:01:33 <fizzie> (I didn't get the /wrist thing.)
08:02:43 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/N1QFcWY.jpg meanwhile, in the uk
08:04:16 <fizzie> It's some kind of a not-real thing, right? Right? Please?
08:04:32 <Bike> are you suggesting a tabloid may be inaccurate
08:04:35 <Bike> that's libel fucker
08:05:12 <fizzie> I think you mean "f***er".
08:05:41 <Bike> too tired and emotional to censor myself, [insinuates that you are a paedophile]
08:05:43 <oerjan> 's ok, just don't use the c**v word
08:06:03 <Bike> (fizzie: also, it can't be real. his shirt says "soccer".)
08:06:46 <fizzie> The "flogged 'em to the junkies" bit at the very least reads like a parody.
08:07:43 <oerjan> boy fails to blend into reality, takes it out on cat
08:09:00 <fizzie> Meanwhile, in the email: [[ This is an official advice from the FBI foreign remittance/telegraphic dept. it has come to our notice that bank of Nigeria has released $8m to BANK OF AMERICA in your name as the beneficiary, The bank Nigeria knowing fully well that they do not have enough facilities to effect this payment from Nigeria to your account, They used what we know as a “secret ...
08:09:06 <fizzie> ... diplomatic transit payment” (S.T.D.P) to pay this fund through wire transfer, but this means of transfer can not reflect to your account as this was wrong method of transfer. ]]
08:09:24 <Bike> spike timing dependent plasticity
08:09:34 <fizzie> Those wacky Nigerians, they keep using those STDPs even though they're obviously the wrong method of transfer.
08:09:54 <fizzie> I guess I need to send a "Diplomatic Immunity Seal Of Transfer(DIST)" or something.
08:10:05 <fizzie> Must be legit, all those acronyms.
08:10:21 <oerjan> sealed highly important transfer
08:10:50 <fizzie> (How come a "secret diplomatic transit payment" is a STDP and not a SDTP, anyway?)
08:11:23 <oerjan> fizzie: it's probably one of those english/french ordering compromises
08:11:51 <oerjan> transfer secrét diplomatique du paye
08:12:03 <fizzie> "Meanwhile, i have decided to scan and send to you a copy of my identity as evidence, so you can be aware of whom you are dealing with and i have also informed that entire FBI Department Offices in each states to back out regarding this case because i have decided to handle this situation personally to ensure that i deal with you accordingly if you fail to provide the necessary requirement ...
08:12:04 <Bike> god i hope the fbi actually has a "telegraphic dept"
08:12:09 <fizzie> ... which we requested from you."
08:12:18 <Bike> fizzie you aren't even in the united states are you
08:12:37 <fizzie> But he's scanned a copy of his identity, so.
08:12:38 <olsner> Bike: it's the finnish bureau of investigation
08:12:41 <Bike> nice of the FBI to protect the whole world instead of americans
08:12:44 <Bike> just americans*
08:13:05 <oerjan> Bike: they can't even keep finnish spam inside finland, you think they manage to keep fbi spam outside it?
08:13:13 <fizzie> I think I've gotten email before from this same guy, he's "FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III".
08:13:41 <oerjan> (seriously, most of the spam i see these days is finnish. although i guess that's after nvg's filter.)
08:13:59 <fizzie> Our spam is too potent to be contained by your puny filters.
08:14:30 <fizzie> "Subject: Are You Sure Rev. Thomas Is Your Next of Kin!!!" No!!! I'm not sure at all!!!
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08:45:23 <Taneb> Aaaaah Namco High has been released
08:47:56 <Fiora> Taneb: http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/70376905191/
08:48:41 <Taneb> No spoilers, please!
08:49:37 <Fiora> spoilers: it keeps happening
08:49:59 <Bike> spoiler davesprite is davesprite
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08:56:26 <FreeFull> fizzie: What was the name of the guy from X-Files?
08:58:59 <kmc> Bike: crimbo
09:00:25 <Taneb> Oh man, Anti-bravoman is pretty cool
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09:16:59 <fizzie> I'm not sure which guy FreeFull meant.
09:17:18 <fizzie> Mulder, maybe. That's close-ish to Mueller.
09:18:52 <kmc> oh irc, where else can you walk into a room and find a motionless duplicate of yourself
09:18:58 <kmc> and the socially acceptable response is to murder them
09:19:25 <fizzie> I think there are some netwurk games like that.
09:19:50 <oerjan> clearly the duplicates should argue they're the real ones more often
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09:25:00 <impomatic> As soon oerjan disconnects I'm going to grab his nick and argue I'm the one who should survive.
09:27:23 <oerjan> i guess i am asking for that.
09:58:14 <Taneb> Oh dear god I've found a cameo
10:00:34 <oerjan> as long as it wasn't a camel
10:03:01 <Taneb> Well, I reached AN ending
10:03:31 <fizzie> "Camelopard" is kind of a silly name for a giraffe.
10:03:47 <oerjan> is this one of those choose your own camel books
10:04:15 <Taneb> oerjan, it's a dating sim about video game characters
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10:10:08 <Taneb> I just got a good ending with the ship from Galaga
10:12:56 <fizzie> Someone might argue that any ending is a good ending, viz. that you don't have to keep playing.
10:19:38 <fizzie> !SENT_START I DON'T THINK ANYONE COULD BUY AND TODAY BUT THINGS CHANGE WHEN PEOPLE DIE !SENT_END
10:21:22 <oerjan> i think fizzie is revealing himself as a bot
10:22:27 <fizzie> !SENT_START I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE INSINUATING THERE I AM MADE OF SOFT HUMAN FLESH !SENT_END
10:35:47 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/efBH those wacky university students, right?
10:45:04 <oerjan> i think that will be ex-university student
10:47:17 <fizzie> (Also that "Page 4" in there is spurious.)
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13:00:22 <quintopia> it seems like now would be a very good time to buy btc, but it seems like so much effort, cuz i know there's no easy way
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13:07:45 <boily> `relcome Hanswurst
13:07:50 <HackEgo> Hanswurst: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:08:04 <boily> quintopia: there seems to be a few Canadian sites for investing in BTC.
13:08:35 <quintopia> boily: do they allow you to pay electronically?
13:09:46 <boily> looks like so, but the acronyms are colliding with my uncaffeinated brain, so I'm missing many details.
13:18:37 <boily> fizzie: should I add in the # cömment to the `addquote you made 6 hours ago?
13:18:57 <boily> quintopia: don't worry. 12 oz of tea are brewing.
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13:23:12 <fizzie> boily: It did not end up in the quote, so I guess not. I don't know. Is there a law on these things?
13:25:03 <fungot> boily: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ eggs/ search.scm. i mean is
13:25:16 <boily> fungot: I mean, your opinion on the matter?
13:25:17 <fungot> boily: fnord sez the thermometer now interesting rather than solved problems." at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
13:25:45 <boily> fizzie: you bot says you should mind thermometers insted of the problem. so no comment it is.
13:38:33 <boily> quintopia: (I very subtly and discreetly added you to the PDF cocoonspirators.)
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13:41:13 <boily> kmc: (same thing.)
13:41:24 <fizzie> It's a very discreet process, disregarding the automatic email alerts.
13:43:49 <quintopia> boily: i am 12 and what is this wisdom repo
13:45:27 <boily> quintopia: 12? it is the repo to the Source of the PDF.
13:46:34 <boily> the PDF in the /topic ↑
13:47:52 <fizzie> What other wisdom is there than the wisdom of #esoteric, really?
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13:51:05 <boily> I still don't know what twelves quintopia is, so I'm going to assume he's a herd of zebras.
13:54:21 <fizzie> I think it was like a time of day. Like, "I'm totally middays", and so on.
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14:08:34 <boily> small follow-up on the amplituhedron → http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/12/a-quantum-revolution-against-feynman-diagrams/
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14:17:46 <quintopia> also i wanted to add a wisdom but i can't backtick on my phone
14:23:28 <b_jonas> quintopia: can you copy and paste on your phone?
14:24:08 * boily ````````es quintopia
14:24:26 <jconn> b_jonas: ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
14:24:58 <boily> is it possible to maintain, debug, analyze, refactor and otherwise understand J?
14:25:30 <b_jonas> it's not really useful for large programs
14:27:16 <b_jonas> ) (0j1+i.9)#96{a. NB. all sizes, in case you can only copy and paste full words
14:27:16 <jconn> b_jonas: ` `` ``` ```` ````` `````` ``````` ````````
14:29:07 <boily> ~eval iterate ('`':) "`"
14:29:10 <metasepia> ["`","``","```","````","`````","``````","```````","````````","`````````","``````````","```````````","````````````","`````````````","``````````````","```````````````","````````````````","`````````````````","``````````````````","```````````````````","````````````````````","`````````````````````","``````````````````````","```````````````````````","````````````````````````","`````````````````````````","``````````````````````````","````
14:31:19 <b_jonas> ~eval concat (iterate ('`':) " ")
14:31:19 <metasepia> " ` `` ``` ```` ````` `````` ``````` ```````` ````````` `````````` ``````````` ```````````` ````````````` `````````````` ``````````````` ```````````````` ````````````````` `````````````````` ``````````````````` ```````````````````` ````````````````````` `````````````````````` ``````````````````````` ```````````````````````` ````````````````````````` `````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````
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16:16:21 <boily> is there any reference implementation to https://github.com/trevp/axolotl/wiki ?
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16:52:42 <quintopia> `learn PHP is Worse Is Better with strong lock-in effects for the web ecosystem.
17:29:42 <mroman> `learn PHP is the most static typed and mathematically proven to be the best programming language ever.
17:30:07 <mroman> I know that you knew than.
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17:43:06 <quintopia> `learn PHP is Worse Is Better with strong lock-in effects for the web ecosystem.
17:43:30 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/PHP': No such file or directory
17:43:37 <shachaf> why are y'all putting in these wisdom entries
17:43:51 <quintopia> shachaf: there was another php entry that you deleted that was already there
17:43:58 <quintopia> shachaf: you are the worst deleter person ever
17:44:07 <shachaf> they should both not be in wisdom/
17:44:25 <quintopia> shachaf: but what about the third one you deleted. should it be.
17:45:04 <quintopia> shachaf: also since when are you the final arbiter of what can be in wisdom
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17:51:51 <boily> back from lunch, and there is a wardom on PHP.
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18:23:09 <CADD> quintopia: I agree with shachaf the 3rd one was not wisdom.
18:23:52 <quintopia> CADD: remind me what the third one was again so i don't have to reload the pdf
18:25:05 <CADD> quintopia: the one right after your one
18:25:36 <quintopia> CADD: that one sucked. i'm talking about the one that was in there originally. i.e. yesterday.
18:27:13 <Bike> more like hyperTERRIBLE processor
18:28:24 <boily> there was a PHP entry?
18:28:27 <quintopia> CADD: it's gone. shachaf deleted it. look it up in the PDF if you want to see it.
18:28:29 <CADD> it and the links
18:28:39 <CADD> oh, the wisdom one. right
18:29:03 <boily> “ \item[PHP] is preferred by 9 out of 10 idiots, and past elliott. Ask your GP today! $[$Website redacted$]$”
18:29:22 <Bike> that seems pretty meh.
18:29:31 <Bike> MEANWHILE IN R/BITCOIN http://imgur.com/h9TXUbY
18:30:44 <CADD> quintopia: PHP is preferred by 9 out of 10 idiots, and past elliott. Ask your GP today! [Website redacted]
18:32:02 <boily> CADD: by the way, do you have a github account? (asked with an evil grin :D)
18:32:27 <CADD> boily: yeah, github.com/sheganinans
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18:33:23 <quintopia> the one i was trying to add was intended to be actual wisdom, not humor. based on an article: https://medium.com/on-coding/6a9748f2268c
18:33:27 <shachaf> Oh, you mean yet another PHP entry before the two that both of you added.
18:33:28 <CADD> boily: i just added some stuff really recently. just random snippets i thought were barely tolerable to release
18:34:02 <shachaf> "PHP is preferred by 9 out of 10 idiots, and past elliott. Ask your GP today! [Website redacted]"
18:34:11 <shachaf> I think we're better off without any of them.
18:34:16 <boily> CADD: you should now be in the knowledge of my account, and the Source to the PDF.
18:34:40 <quintopia> shachaf: why don't you just go through and delete everything you don't like, and send some rain to a few parades while you're at it
18:34:57 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
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18:35:26 <CADD> boily: do i have to wait for github's eventual consistency model for me to see it?
18:35:42 <CADD> boily: or some other service?
18:36:23 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: i'm not seeing any new ones
18:37:20 <CADD> boily: ah, i sees you
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19:22:15 <oerjan> <quintopia> it seems like now would be a very good time to buy [...] <-- the ancient sign of a bubble close to bursting...
19:24:20 <oerjan> <boily> fizzie: should I add in the # cömment to the `addquote you made 6 hours ago? <-- not unless you add all my previous quotes/wisdom-affecting sed commands hth
19:27:04 <kmc> oh bitcoin is crashing again?
19:31:05 <Bike> they put a suicide hotline in r/bitcoin
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19:31:57 <Bike> as long as you acknowledge that anyone actually killing themselves would be horrible
19:33:40 <Bike> there's also a temporary ban on "memes, price posts, and emotional posts" which is clear for mockery
19:34:36 <kmc> it's not the first time this has happened
19:34:59 <kmc> i'm no suicide prevention expert but "it's just money" seems like a shitty and privileged thing to say, in general
19:35:38 <Bike> yes, but on the other hand most people on r/bitcoin are themselves shitty and privileged
19:35:54 <oerjan> i have this hunch that the idea of bitcoin working is based on the same kind of economy that didn't foresee the still ongoing financial crisis.
19:36:08 <kmc> oerjan: can you elaborate?
19:36:31 <Bike> i mean, if i had any influence on rbitcoin i'd try to come up with something better to say, fo sho
19:36:47 <oerjan> kmc: hunches don't have elaborations.
19:36:52 <kmc> oerjan: okay
19:36:59 <kmc> what about elaborate hunches
19:37:03 <kmc> also yes that
19:37:11 <Bike> or hunched-over elaborations
19:37:54 <oerjan> first of all, the only intrinsic stabilization of bitcoin's value is on the supply side. which is better than having none at all i guess.
19:38:29 <oerjan> but it only guarantees a _maximal_ value, not a minimum one...
19:39:25 -!- ^v has joined.
19:39:28 <boily> fungot: are you worth any bitcoin?
19:39:28 <fungot> boily: perhaps that's irrational. " snow crash", " helping others", "
19:40:04 <boily> Harken to the Bot! Follow the Path of Crashing Snowy Bitcoins, and Helping Others!
19:40:21 <oerjan> everything else is based on trust ... and without a supporting institution like a government, or a strong moral code that everyone follows, trust cannot survive in bad times.
19:40:44 <Bike> i see fungot is a libertarian
19:40:44 <fungot> Bike: if you make significant changes.
19:41:30 <boily> mrhmouse: “I don't see any problem with that.”
19:42:10 <Bike> http://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/2013/msg00235.html fuck yeaaaaaah
19:44:57 <kmc> yeah i'm reading the paper now http://www.tau.ac.il/~tromer/papers/acoustic-20131218.pdf
19:45:09 <oerjan> hm such side channel attacks essentially mean that encryption code _must_ be branch free, no?
19:45:19 <oerjan> unless this is even subtler
19:45:34 <boily> since when do branches break encryption?
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19:46:08 <kmc> i think the problem is that it's really hard to do public-key operations efficiently without data-dependent control flow or memory access
19:46:56 <oerjan> boily: by having the cpu do different things internally depending on what the data is, which can have measurable effects such as timing or this sound thing...
19:46:59 <Bike> boily: i think the basic idea is that the attacker can use side channel information like sound to determine which branch sme code is on
19:47:12 <Bike> nice, oerjan said it forwards and i said it backwards
19:47:18 <kmc> and some day you will meet?
19:47:19 <quintopia> oerjan: 1) the bubble has burst/is bursting, hence my statement and 2) i see no reason why it won't rebound
19:47:22 * oerjan hasn't actually read the paper but is assuming that's how such a thing would work
19:50:37 <boily> oerjan, Bike: so, you can guess what's happening, but you can't perfectly reconstruct the original data, righ?
19:50:52 <boily> oerjan, Bike: and meeting IRL is always a Good Thing®.
19:51:22 * quintopia meets boily IRL in a crowded bus dressed as a hobo
19:51:22 <oerjan> boily: no, but if you can do chosen plaintext attacks, you can add more and more information until you have the key...
19:52:34 <fizzie> Ooh, I remember the '04 presentation that paper mentions.
19:52:39 <kmc> right, this attack involves sending many PGP-encrypted emails which are crafted to reveal bits of the private key through the side channel
19:52:53 <fizzie> It's "p. great" they've extended it to do actual key extraction.
19:53:12 <fizzie> (As in, remember reading about it, not attending it.)
19:53:28 <boily> quintopia: you're >1900 km away by car. we need to find a simpler way to irlmeet. and why would you want to dress crowded buses as hoboes?
19:53:58 <quintopia> boily: the bus isn't dressed as a hobo. it's just dangling a modifier
19:54:23 <quintopia> boily: and there is no simpler way for me to stalk you sorry
20:02:42 <ion> http://youtu.be/9pzm1lQX0qU
20:03:00 <fizzie> kmc: I like how it has Genesis 27:5 in the references. :)
20:03:25 <kmc> oh that's what that cite was :)
20:03:36 <fizzie> "Audio eavesdropping on human conversations is a common practice, first published several millenia ago [Gen]."
20:03:38 <kmc> no author listed though
20:04:20 <fizzie> "[Gen 27:5 KJV] 5 And Rebekah heard when Isaac spake to Esau his son. And Esau went to the field to hunt [for] venison, [and] to bring [it]."
20:04:30 <ion> boily: An Andy Warhol homage.
20:04:35 <Bike> oh hey, i remember that.
20:04:40 <Bike> esau was kind of a motherfucker, iirc
20:04:47 <kmc> aren't they all
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20:25:29 <elliott> do I see a flamewar about the wisdom system in my backscroll highlighting me three times?
20:26:47 <Bike> unfortunately, as you already know, php
20:27:31 <HackEgo> bin/?: else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; \ bin/¿:? "$@" | rev | tac \ bin/؟:? "$@" | rev \ bin/anonlog: grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1| sed "s=<[^>]*> ==" \ bin/anonlog: file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ bin/aseen:done < <(ls -r /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt) \ bin/bienvenido:if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$
20:27:41 <elliott> `run grep '?' bin/* | paste
20:27:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31992
20:28:17 <elliott> well if it were not for the other-language welcomes I would just remove the thing
20:31:02 <HackEgo> PHP is Worse Is Better with strong lock-in effects for the web ecosystem.
20:31:04 <Bike> elliott wants t destroy all we hold dear
20:31:27 <Bike> destroying america's morals
20:31:27 <oerjan> elliott: but your pinging was due to a wisdom entry that already _had_ been removed!
20:31:36 <oerjan> so removing it won't help QED
20:32:26 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:38:11 * boily shoos elliott away from the Precious Wisdom DB
20:38:30 <elliott> don't tempt me to increase the drasticity of my measures.
20:38:53 <boily> I have a mapole, and I know how to use it. the Wisdom will Stand!
20:39:45 -!- elliott has left ("now I have removed the entire channel").
20:40:00 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
20:40:06 -!- elliott has joined.
20:40:11 <elliott> actually, I still need this to number my irssi windows right.
20:40:34 <shachaf> elliott: That's why I /part without closing the window.
20:41:19 <shachaf> /set autoclose_windows off
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20:45:24 <kmc> bitcoin crash is front page on news.bbc.co.uk
20:46:56 <elliott> is it really a full crash? isn't BTC much higher than before still?
20:48:55 <kmc> when before?
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20:49:59 <elliott> before it started rising recently
20:50:06 <elliott> it was at $200 or something?
20:50:38 <kmc> i don't really have a precise opinion on what the word "crash" means
20:51:37 <elliott> I guess like 5x increase in value from before it went crazy (ok, it's always crazy) seems like still a pretty big rise even if it went crazier in the interim to me
20:52:45 <int-e> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD
20:54:32 <int-e> for a normal currency a 50% drop in value within two weeks would be a crash ...
20:54:58 <int-e> somehow I don't feel that way about bitcoins.
20:55:16 <kmc> yeah I don't think "crash" implies that all value since time immemorial is wiped out
20:56:13 <elliott> int-e: obviously, people expect BTC to be much more volatile than most things people call currencies :)
20:56:20 <kmc> just a sudden and significant drop in value
20:56:43 <elliott> btw, mtgox might not be the best charts to look at given their issues unless that got resolved, they hover consistently above other exchanges because of them
21:02:58 <Bike> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alexwinter/deep-web-the-untold-story-of-bitcoin-and-the-silk well, ok.
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21:07:37 <kmc> is "crimbo" really a UK slang term for "christmas"
21:07:55 <int-e> I wonder whether anybody is crazy enough to trade futures for bitcoins.
21:08:20 <metasepia> future definition: that is to be; '''specifically'''.
21:08:56 <int-e> "A lot of what's going on out there is scary stuff!" ... boring.
21:10:51 -!- evalj has joined.
21:10:58 <Bike> "An unexpected exception has occurred. Please contact our Help Desk and include any errors reported on this page. java.lang.NullPointerException" this is a web application.
21:11:01 <int-e> And "deep web" is not even their own phrase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Web
21:11:07 -!- S1 has left.
21:11:10 <kmc> lots of people write webapps in Java
21:11:42 <Bike> well, i'm just kind of surprised it gave me a backtrce, i suppose.
21:12:54 <boily> I like NPEs. they offer a great occasion to be zen, drink a cuppa, and reflect on the Purpose of Life.
21:14:30 <boily> /me reads the wikipédia article on futures contracts.
21:14:34 * boily reads the wikipédia article on futures contracts.
21:16:01 <boily> I am disgusted by the possibility and formalisation of selling intangible financial assets.
21:17:11 <Bike> this is just miiiiildly annoying since i could get money frm this form
21:17:17 <CADD> boily: hey if you sign the contract and you loose money, its your fault. doesnt matter what is being sold.
21:17:23 <Bike> boily: then uh, don't take too close a look at anything remotely moneoy-related
21:17:54 <kmc> isn't money itself an "intangible financial asset"
21:17:57 <elliott> boily: and what exactly is a dollar?
21:18:03 <elliott> it isn't some gold any more
21:18:08 <boily> CADD: that I have no problem with. it's just the sleazyness of all that stuff.
21:18:14 <CADD> boily: futures contracts are not exactly money printing machines.
21:18:30 <CADD> boily: lol, the federal reserve is a million times sleazier
21:18:33 <boily> Bike: I don't understand finance. I am terrified by anything more complex than a simple savings account.
21:18:38 <kmc> certainly many sleazy things have been done with derivatives, yeah, but rejecting the whole concept outright?
21:18:41 <boily> kmc: I meant, intangibler.
21:18:46 <kmc> boily: do you also consider insurance to be inherently sleazy?
21:18:50 <boily> elliott: something I have in my pocket.
21:19:02 <kmc> futures and options aren't just for speculators, they're purchesd by large "productive" companies as insurance
21:19:13 <Bike> fucking christ this isn't even my fault
21:19:14 <kmc> mcdonalds buys potato futures so that they're less exposed to fluctuations in price
21:19:20 <boily> kmc: yes, but I have a dental plan, so I make an exception for that.
21:19:23 <elliott> boily: what about in your bank account?
21:19:28 <Bike> and my face is bleeding. god
21:20:02 <Bike> WHY AM I SO PUT UPON, O GOD IN HEAVEN
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21:20:20 <boily> elliott: those are dollars in somebody else pocket. there are pocketeers out there who hold everybody's money, as there are plumbers, teachers, managers...
21:21:19 <boily> Bike: how many millilitres of blood per hour are you loosing?
21:21:21 <elliott> boily: you will probably be disappointed if you ask your bank to show the vault in which the physical coins for your bank account balance are stored
21:21:35 <CADD> boily: look, i feel you have been fed a story about futures without actually understanding the math behind it. you even admitted yourself
21:21:40 <Bike> what the uck is a litre
21:21:41 <boily> elliott: I know. I prefer my fiction. it's more fun :D
21:21:48 <Bike> i use liters you damn furriner
21:22:09 <boily> CADD: I skimmed the wikipédia article, so I really don't understand what's happening. proper documentation is in order.
21:22:13 <kmc> never let the facts get in the way of a good pitchfork mob
21:22:26 <CADD> boily: at first i was saying wat to Bike, but accidentally said you, then i read your statement after his and said wat, but this time to yo
21:22:49 <kmc> boily: you pay some amount now and you get some quantity of a good n months in the future
21:22:57 <kmc> boily: pretty straightforward
21:23:06 <boily> kmc: oh. if that's the case, no problem with that.
21:23:20 <CADD> mrhmouse: lol, i cant speel todai
21:23:21 <kmc> and you can sell that contract in the meantime, in which case whoever buys it gets the good
21:23:46 <boily> kmc: so you can make a profit by selling the contract?
21:23:57 <kmc> if you are good at it, yes
21:24:05 <CADD> boily: kmc said it very well, there is no "evil NWO magic" to it
21:24:20 <boily> CADD: I am disappoint.
21:24:52 <CADD> boily: not to say that there have been plenty of conspiracies, look at watergate, the gulf of tonkin, and operation notrhwoods :P
21:24:57 <kmc> you can also take a loss of course
21:25:22 <CADD> boily: thats what i meant by saying they arent money printing machines, unlike the federal reserve
21:25:58 <Bike> and even literally printing money has its purposes.
21:26:15 <kmc> boily: the thing is that nobody knows exactly what the price of buying potatoes "on the spot" will be in 6 months, so the market price of a futures contract will vary as estimates of that future price change
21:26:20 <boily> oerjan: http://i.imgur.com/PtXdfsj.png (frontpaging on reddit)
21:26:28 <Bike> https://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8v5tskgKu1rpj06qo1_1280.jpg i'm very rady for this
21:26:48 <CADD> Bike: yeah, its called counterfeit or some people even shave coins
21:27:01 <Bike> boily: there's an Underworld music video like that but filmed from a train. it rules
21:27:15 <elliott> I hereby ban libertarianism.
21:27:16 <boily> kmc: is a futures contract public? if so, wouldn't that change what the future price of the asset will be?
21:27:17 <Bike> well, except it's flipped instead of water, probably, but it makes it look like water
21:27:21 <CADD> Bike: that is actually why coins these days have those lines running around their edges, it makes it really easy to see if a coin has been shaved
21:27:27 <kmc> boily: they are often publicly traded yes
21:27:29 <oerjan> boily: hm that looks like it might be from trondheim?
21:27:36 <boily> oerjan: that is indeed the case.
21:29:00 <mrhmouse> CADD: most establishments don't think to reject a coin that's missing those lines, though, if it looks worn
21:29:22 <mrhmouse> banks might, but not many other places where the money-handlers are typically teenagers
21:29:22 <kmc> boily: anyway why would it affect the spot price?
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21:29:31 <oerjan> hm is there a way to see the normal reddit frontpage without logging out
21:29:33 <CADD> mrhmouse: lol, sure. that and its really not all that profitable to do. unless they are gold coins.
21:29:53 <boily> kmc: it won't, but then you can influence the market so that you can make someone else gain or lose money.
21:29:53 <mrhmouse> CADD: in which case, many teenagers won't believe they're legal tender
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21:30:06 <boily> kmc: (unless I'm completely mistaken.)
21:30:28 <boily> oerjan: http://www.reddit.com/r/all/
21:30:58 <kmc> boily: how can you make someone else gain or lose money if you all have access to the same information and can take the same actions?
21:31:04 <mrhmouse> in fact, most counterfeiting can be gotten away with if you avoid exchanging it with someone that could possibly think to check it
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21:31:07 <CADD> mrhmouse: well, they technechally arent "legal" anymore, but anyone who know barely anything will accept them
21:31:14 <Bike_> boily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpCmYXwCHZY
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21:31:44 <Bike> beautiful burnnnnnout~
21:31:52 <CADD> mrhmouse: lol, saw a video of a guy trying to sell a 1Oz gold coing for $50. the man was even in front of a cash4gold place.
21:31:58 <kmc> boily: in practice people do come up with all kinds of market manipulation schemes, in all kinds of markets, some of which are illegal
21:32:00 <Bike> oh, my mistake about the source
21:32:00 <int-e> kmc: you can still be lucky. but usually one of those assumptions turns out to be false
21:32:02 <mrhmouse> high traffic hours in grocery stores checkout lines are the best times and places to use an almost-legit bill, since a hurried kid isn't likely to check your paper
21:32:30 <CADD> mrhmouse: lol, yeah. but it has to feel right to be enough to pass. cotton and all.
21:32:32 <int-e> e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_maker
21:32:41 <boily> kmc: most fascinating.
21:32:47 <kmc> what about market makers? what does that have to do with manipulation?
21:32:50 <mrhmouse> CADD: right, but it isn't difficult to repurpose a lower-value bill
21:32:57 <boily> Bike: there, another one I like → http://vimeo.com/68546202
21:33:14 <Bike> it's from some kind of short film called Shinkansen and oh i see you're perfectly capable of reading video descriptions.
21:33:19 <CADD> mrhmouse: you are completely right.
21:33:34 <int-e> kmc: it's just an example of an asymmetry. market makers have more options than normal traders. (and more obligations)
21:33:44 <mrhmouse> boily: let's build a printing press
21:33:47 <CADD> mrhmouse: oh man, this brings back memories of places like totse..
21:34:12 <kmc> int-e: oh, you are using the term "market maker" to describe the regulatory status of registered broker-dealers and such, rather than just the trading strategy of market making
21:34:26 <CADD> mrhmouse: never done it myself, but its amazing how much of this info is available freely on the internet
21:34:37 <mrhmouse> boily: you're the easiest to blame^H^H^H^H^Hstart that sort of thing with
21:35:19 <kmc> sometimes you are allowed to pursue a market-making strategy without any special status as a market participant
21:35:30 <boily> mrhmouse: I am Canadian. we'd have to print vinyl money.
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21:35:47 <boily> time to go finish up xmas shopping.
21:35:49 <mrhmouse> boily: Canadian coins are vinyl?
21:35:56 <boily> mrhmouse: banknotes.
21:36:01 <Bike> they even have short tracks on them
21:36:12 * boily wishes that loonies were made of vinyl :D
21:36:22 <Bike> bits of "O Canada" and also Bjork songs
21:36:26 <CADD> boily: yup, and even some countries have embedded transparent parts. so its even more difficult to re-purpose lower valued bills
21:36:58 <boily> our bills have transparent sections, with pictures of Her Majesty.
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21:37:07 -!- boily has quit (Quit: POULET DE NOËL!).
21:37:09 <mrhmouse> not here in the states.. you have to take time to check identifying marks like metallic strips, watermarks, etc.. they aren't glaringly obvious like they should be
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21:37:19 <CADD> boily: right, that is exactly what i was getting at. i though canada had them as well
21:38:03 <CADD> mrhmouse: well, soon enough it will be all bitcoins. lol
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21:38:26 <CADD> silly analog currencies
21:38:34 -!- ^v has joined.
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21:43:29 <mrhmouse> CADD: I refuse to accept any currency besides impromptu song & dance numbers
21:45:43 <mrhmouse> CADD: hilarious TTG stories are also acceptable
21:47:48 <CADD> mrhmouse: well there is this one story that this guy on irc, where he told me that he would only take payment in currency that was less fungable than most of the currency that i had to offer, so then I decided to make a horrible TTG imitation of a story
21:48:09 <CADD> </horrible_extrenuous_joke>
21:48:13 <Bike> "hilarious" was clearly specified
21:48:29 <CADD> darn, i guess its to the guillotine with me..
21:49:17 <CADD> mrhmouse: TTG?
22:04:43 <int-e> a fungible currency is one that can go up in smoke? *wonders*
22:05:13 <Bike> fungot: advice on fungibility
22:05:14 <fungot> Bike: i'm sooooooooo close to a bus. neths 1.8.03 also adds fluffy bunnies for remote users.
22:05:28 * kmc wonders if that's a pun he doesn't get
22:05:58 <kmc> fungible just means the units are interchangeable... one dollar is as good as another
22:07:37 <int-e> so it has nothing to do with mushrooms. boring.
22:07:53 <kmc> i don't know of any smokable mushrooms
22:08:10 <kmc> douglass_ might
22:08:19 <olsner> mushrooms are not smokable?
22:08:52 <kmc> I mean, you can try
22:08:57 <kmc> but i don't think anything good will happen
22:08:59 <int-e> olsner: you're attacking the wrong end of the association chain
22:10:12 <kmc> the meat club at my school had an event advertised as "smoke anything up to the size of a small turkey"
22:10:37 <Bike> is the funny thing supposed to be the implication of #drugz or the fact that there was a club for meat
22:10:39 <int-e> Quoth the Internet, "You can also smoke dried mushrooms. It's a bit milder than eating them or making tea, but you need to use more mushrooms."
22:11:57 <kmc> int-e: psilocybin-containing mushrooms?
22:12:26 <Bike> hm. when you smoke something psychoactive is it an aerosol or what
22:13:35 <Bike> all my knowledge here is from chemical weapons, so uh
22:14:22 <Bike> sarin isn't a gas at human-livable temperatures and pressures. it's aerosolized in weapon form (unless you're aum shinrikyo)
22:15:53 <Bike> so 'sarin gas' is rather a misnomer. just a fact to keep in mind for parties.
22:16:15 <kmc> what did aum do
22:16:31 <douglass_> I've seen claims that you can smoke the top layer of an Amanita muscaria cap and it will be psychoactive.
22:16:43 <Bike> they made plastic bags filled with sarin (liquid) and then jabbed them
22:17:39 <douglass_> But people mostly agree that smoking psilocybin-containing mushrooms will just make you cough.
22:20:17 <Bike> i should ask the #drugz people at school if i can make a can of THC like a can of spray paint, i'm sure they'll be thrilled
22:22:39 <olsner> hmm, I think I've heard about spray cannabis before somewhere
22:22:48 <douglass_> And I have no idea whatsoever about whatever the fuck other chemicals are in various Gymnopilus species.
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22:24:29 <FreeFull> Amanita muscaria doesn't have psylocybin, and I know it does get used as a hallucinogen. I don't know about smoking it thugh
22:24:36 <douglass_> Also if I wanted to try A. muscaria, I'd cook it, not smoke it. Ibotenic acid is a flavor enhancer (like MSG) and lots of people say A. muscaria is one of the most delicious wild mushrooms there is.
22:25:11 <FreeFull> Mushrooms that have psylocybin in them taste rather horrible
22:25:46 <FreeFull> You could probably feed A. muscaria to a reindeer and drink the piss
22:26:42 <douglass_> Why? I was under the impression that cooking did most of the same desired conversion to muscimol and with much tastier results.
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22:26:56 <douglass_> Also, reindeer are not a common backyard pet in my area.
22:27:28 <ion> http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/12/18/2122226/scientists-extract-rsa-key-from-gnupg-using-sound-of-cpu?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt
22:27:35 <Bike> Does anyone know what kind of computers the Luna probes used?
22:29:28 <Bike> christ, nasa's page doesn't even specify what agency they were under
22:29:49 <kmc> FreeFull: they don't always
22:29:53 <kmc> taste horrible I mean
22:34:06 <douglass_> right, varies by species + personal taste. some people even think Gymnopilus species are tasty (which may be due to variance in bitterness receptors. Many mushrooms in the genus Gymnopilus contain psilocybin but also some other stuff.)
22:36:26 <douglass_> (Gymnopiluses are usually described as intensely bitter, which was my opinion of the non-psilocybin-containing G. ventricosus that I found and made dye from. It smelled pretty good though.)
22:37:07 <kmc> I had some P. galindoi sclerotia and they tasted... not like food, but definitely not "horrible"
22:37:49 <douglass_> Taxonomy note: P. galindoi is now declared synonymous with P. mexicana.
22:38:28 <kmc> kind of like eating wax with a slight, unusual "crisp" taste reminiscent of mineral water or that time I ate some raw saffron
22:38:33 <kmc> hard to describe
22:38:41 <kmc> douglass_: ah
22:38:51 <kmc> fungot: are you synonymous with P. mexicana
22:38:52 <fungot> kmc: let's do it from the server
22:39:11 <olsner> fungot: are you edible?
22:39:12 <fungot> olsner: all things has a price?)
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22:40:44 <douglass_> (though who the fuck knows which species those really were anyway)
22:41:30 <kmc> <douglass_> Also, reindeer are not a common backyard pet in my area. <--- yet another reason to move to finland
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22:42:28 <kmc> all we have here are cats, snails, and hippies
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22:44:25 <olsner> you have hippies in the back yard?
22:44:50 <Bike> they have themselves
22:44:54 <kmc> also neighbors
22:45:35 <olsner> roe deer may be hunted from the start of may to middle of june, because they're less radioactive in the summer
22:47:04 <kmc> http://kch.zf.jcu.cz/vyzkum/publikace/separaty/Mushroom%20radioactivity%202012.pdf
22:47:33 <kmc> this agrees with you, say they are radioactive in the fall mushroom season
22:48:07 <FreeFull> There is fungus in Chernobyl that uses radioactivity as a source of energy
22:51:17 <Bike> "A History of APL in the USSR", yeah i'm fucked
22:52:05 <Bike> it's cool how there's like no central repository of ISBN publisher identifiers
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22:53:00 <Bike> oh, nevermind, it exists, as a printed book
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22:53:46 <Bike> and the ebook only costs fifteen hundred euros!
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22:56:45 <CADD> Bike: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=130647.130656
22:58:00 <Bike> what i was actually looking for was a russian-language book that doesn't exist anywhere on the english-language web, apparently
22:58:52 <CADD> Bike: oh, so not the same?
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00:00:19 <Bike> «so many different US intelligence agents were conducting operations inside games that a "deconfliction" group was required to ensure they weren't spying on, or interfering with, each other»
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00:29:20 <Sgeo> Bike: help me understand the reflection package
00:32:52 <Bike> i told you man, i'm retired. no more black ops stuff
00:33:17 <kmc> one last big score
00:34:10 <Bike> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2013/12/13/legal-threats-backfire/ if y'all aren't following retractin watch you've made a mistake
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01:21:34 <shachaf> what fraction of the top 10 posters in #haskell do i put on /ignore before i decide that i'm done with that channel
01:23:21 <kmc> i'd say 10% should do it
01:25:02 <shachaf> the joke is that i was already done with it
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01:25:07 <kmc> did you actually leave tho
01:25:12 <kmc> imo do that
01:25:21 <kmc> let it all burn
01:26:18 <elliott> I guess persistence works in the end.
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01:27:48 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/klrr.txt and various such things
01:28:34 <elliott> I thought everyone had basically agreed to ignore him for a few months, what happened to get him unbanned?
01:30:34 <_46bit> Brainfuck's been removed from Homebrew
01:30:36 <_46bit> https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/issues/24746
01:30:44 <shachaf> he joined and asked, i think
01:31:45 <shachaf> anyway why is #haskell so bad
01:34:13 <kmc> who's klrr
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01:56:13 <Arufonsu> So I'm trying to think what the best esoteric programming language is.
01:56:30 <Arufonsu> Not merely the best existing one, but the best possible one.
01:56:32 <madbr> what's your criteria
01:56:43 <Bike> Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck
01:56:55 <madbr> my fav is unlambda
01:57:01 <Arufonsu> My criteria are something like "similar to Underload".
01:57:12 <Bike> ok i think i know what's going to best fulfill those
01:57:18 <Bike> it's Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck.
01:57:45 <Arufonsu> I've gotta say, though, /// is a pretty great language.
01:57:55 <Bike> but it's not like underload at all.
01:58:03 <madbr> Arufonsu : in that case, the answer is "underload"
01:58:13 <madbr> since it's the most similar to underload :D
01:58:36 <Arufonsu> madbr: you also have a point, here.
01:59:17 <madbr> I did a couple attempts at something like underload before
01:59:43 <Arufonsu> I really like languages that use code as data. Indeed, languages where there's barely any distinction between code and data.
02:00:03 <Bike> have you consider enumerating the turing machine's
02:00:17 <madbr> Arufonsu: My attempt at that: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar
02:01:27 <Arufonsu> I also like languages where the interpreter loop consists of removing the first instruction from the code and executing it, presumably modifying the rest of the code.
02:03:27 <madbr> Arufonsu : My other attempt (unimplemented): http://esolangs.org/wiki/Object_disoriented
02:03:36 <LinearInterpol> I like languages that involve symbol manipulation only.
02:05:17 <Arufonsu> So, so far, the languages I like are... Underload and ///? I think Smurf is also pretty good.
02:05:21 <madbr> Arufonsu : you should probably look at look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/0x29A
02:06:00 <Arufonsu> madbr: so when this says "full, deep copy", that means the object is copied, as well as every object it references, every object each of those objects references, and so on?
02:06:31 <madbr> it means the language doesn't have references :D
02:07:26 <madbr> which is a reference
02:08:30 <Arufonsu> I guess the thing about /// is that it's a bit too far removed from anything resembling a practical programming language.
02:08:45 <Arufonsu> (Which is a self-crediting way of saying "I have no idea how to write programs in ///".)
02:09:20 <madbr> Object disoriented is mainly intended as a parody of object oriented languages
02:09:38 <Arufonsu> LinearInterpol: Markov algorithms look like Thue.
02:10:02 <LinearInterpol> 'cuz markov algorithms are the trademark rewrite system.
02:10:09 <madbr> and also trying to figure out the smallest possible object oriented language without making just a functionnal language in disguise... but I think it sorta failed at that
02:11:36 <Arufonsu> So, lessee. My platonic ideal programming language is in the "remove and execute on remainder" paradigm.
02:11:45 <Arufonsu> I'm not sure I'd consider lambda calculus to be object-oriented at all.
02:12:35 <LinearInterpol> the typed lambda calc is as I recall, at least it exhibits something like it (though as I'm sure the name tells, it's equivalent to haskell's type system)
02:12:36 <Arufonsu> Encapsulation is a pretty critical feature of OO languages, right? I guess Haskell lets you encapsulate stuff pretty well.
02:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> closures aren't really meaningful in haskell are they?
02:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean you can't modify a variable, so it doesn't seem to make much difference
02:13:58 <LinearInterpol> I've always been a proponent of just straight up symbol manipulation. nothing says "raw" than manipulating atomic symbols.
02:14:25 <Arufonsu> Closures are totally transparent. There's no observable difference between a closure and an ordinary function.
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02:14:43 <shachaf> elliott: Does lens even export anything that'll let you turn Prism s t a b into s -> Either t a?
02:15:02 <Arufonsu> I think in the PIPL, symbols shouldn't just be symbols; they should be functions.
02:15:13 <Arufonsu> Indeed, functions taking a program and yielding a program. Or... uh...
02:15:54 <Arufonsu> Hang on, let me try to figure out whether or not the idea of a statically typed "remove and execute on remainder" language makes any sense at all.
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02:17:54 <Arufonsu> I dunno. I want this to be a catenative language, but catenativity and RAEOR seem to be pretty much mutually exclusive.
02:18:54 <Arufonsu> Then again, if you do some sort of continuation fuckery...
02:23:34 <Arufonsu> Perhaps what I'm after is a language where programs can't just be written in their final form; they have to constantly construct themselves. But they should do so in a particularly elegant manner.
02:24:28 <madbr> a classic way to do that is to not have looping constructs
02:24:40 <madbr> so the only way to loop is to generate more program data
02:24:55 <LinearInterpol> a rewrite system with a brainfuck-like set of language constructs.
02:25:25 <Arufonsu> /// is pretty much the pinnacle of some sort of ideal.
02:26:12 <madbr> can't find info on ///
02:26:17 <madbr> doesn't seem to be on esolang
02:26:21 <Bike> @g esolang ///
02:26:21 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: gazetteer get-shapr get-topic ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki v @ ? .
02:26:22 <Arufonsu> madbr: http://esolangs.org/wiki////
02:26:34 <Bike> so, question: does slashes need the backslash
02:26:53 <Arufonsu> Yes. Without it, there's exactly one instruction, which hangs.
02:27:21 <Bike> i was thinking you could have another character that meant what \/ does, but then i suppose you'd want to refer to that too
02:29:06 <Arufonsu> In theory, a /// programming environment could be really nice. Like, you'd do the same thing that Smalltalk does, where you pretty much just have one single self-modifying program that you use for all of your programming.
02:29:16 <Arufonsu> And it'd be nice because you could define new syntax constantly.
02:30:09 <LinearInterpol> I'll admit I haven't researched on /// but you're in a good paradigm, Arufonsu
02:31:32 <Arufonsu> Okay, here's an idea. So, a program is a series of instructions. The instructions are SEEK(n), MARK, COPY, DELETE, and PASTE.
02:32:32 <Arufonsu> Your main memory is, of course, the remainder of the program. In addition to that, you have two cursors: the primary cursor and the mark cursor. You also have a clipboard.
02:33:29 <Arufonsu> SEEK moves the primary cursor. MARK moves the mark cursor to the primary cursor. COPY replaces the contents of the clipboard with the instructions between the primary cursor and the mark cursor. DELETE deletes everything between the primary cursor and the mark cursor. PASTE inserts the contents of the clipboard before the primary cursor.
02:37:41 <Bike> those are them, i assume
02:37:51 <Arufonsu> The program manipulates itself.
02:38:29 <Bike> it operates on itself.
02:39:43 <Bike> it's pretty easy to imagine a corewars-style gremlin
02:40:09 <LinearInterpol> but since the only commands you specified involve manipulating the program..
02:40:16 <Arufonsu> SEEK(4) MARK SEEK(1) COPY PASTE
02:40:34 <Arufonsu> "SEEK(4) MARK SEEK(1) COPY" copies "PASTE" to the clipboard, then "PASTE" pastes "PASTE" right after itself.
02:40:36 <Bike> it's not like brainfuck without i/o is worthless.
02:41:02 <LinearInterpol> I just can't see the automation behind what he specified.
02:41:44 <LinearInterpol> unless, I suppose, if you count a command as a sort of quanta.
02:41:50 <Bike> seek being absolute seems limiting
02:41:59 <Bike> singular of "quanta" is "quantum"
02:42:11 <Arufonsu> I've been thinking it was relative all along.
02:42:32 <Arufonsu> I wouldn't expect it to be too hard to implement Bitwise Cyclic Tag using this stuff.
02:45:01 <Arufonsu> This doesn't actually seem possible.
02:45:26 <Arufonsu> There's no way to "look at" code without running it.
02:45:39 <Bike> yu'll just have to make 1s and zeros different cde t run, i guess
02:45:53 <Bike> "it worked for underload"
02:46:01 <Arufonsu> Yeah, I guess you could make it so that 0 is one piece of code and 1 is a different piece of code.
02:46:19 <Arufonsu> What pieces of code they are depends on what the program string is.
02:47:07 <LinearInterpol> so you have an "alphabet" of symbols which correspond to operations at this point, and those operations only involve that alphabet.
02:47:48 <LinearInterpol> meaning, enable them to manipulate unreserved symbols.
02:48:41 <Bike> seek can just be integers really
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02:49:14 <Arufonsu> If you had a few more cursors, everything would suddenly become way better.
02:49:22 <Bike> or you could replace it with Seek and SeekBack that move one at a time, and make Seek(17) a macro for SeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeekSeek
02:50:10 <Arufonsu> Like, you already have three cursors: the instruction pointer, the main cursor, and the mark.
02:51:18 <Arufonsu> We could say that SWAP exchanges the main cursor and the mark, and JUMP exchanges the main cursor and the instruction pointer.
02:52:31 <LinearInterpol> (sorry, been battling nasty things for the past 3 hours.)
02:52:40 <Arufonsu> I guess now there's no great reason not to say you can't edit parts of the program that have already been executed.
02:54:08 <Arufonsu> So here's a simple infinite loop: SEEK(3) SEEK(-2) JUMP
02:56:02 <Bike> (mi)3 -2 J -> 3(i)-2 J(m) -> 3(m)-2(i)J -> 3(mi)-2 J -> ????
02:57:22 <Bike> can't you just do SEEK(1) JUMP
02:57:40 <Bike> (mi)1 J -> 1(mi)J -> 1(mi)J -> etc
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02:59:32 <Bike> SEEK(6) MARK SEEK(-6) COPY SEEK(6) PASTE is a gremlin, i think?
02:59:45 <Bike> or, i guess orientatin doesn't matter.
03:00:12 <Bike> so MARK SEEK(4) COPY PASTE
03:00:45 <Bike> first whatever stupid thing this is golfer, thatsa me
03:01:05 <Arufonsu> Yeah, I didn't specify exactly how JUMP works.
03:01:19 <Bike> oh you said /exchanges/
03:01:20 <Arufonsu> The instruction pointer moves forward before the cursors are swapped.
03:02:03 <Arufonsu> So the main cursor ends up immediately after the JUMP instruction.
03:02:34 <Arufonsu> The PASTE command puts stuff before the main cursor, not after.
03:03:45 <LinearInterpol> you're effectively performing rewrite operations, only you're using an explicit system.
03:03:47 <Bike> man's always puttin me down
03:04:36 <Arufonsu> So that'd be like, (cmi) M S4 C P -> (cm) M (i) S4 C P -> (m) M S4 (i) C P (c) -> (m) M S4 C (i) P (c) -> (m) M S4 C P (i) M S4 C P (c) -> M S4 C P M (i) S4 C P (cm) -> M S4 C P M S4 (i) C P (m) _ _ _ _ (c)
03:04:44 <Arufonsu> Where (c) is the main cursor and (m) is the mark.
03:05:08 <Arufonsu> Have I already said Markov algorithms sound like wimpmode Thue?
03:09:24 <Arufonsu> It's not the One True Language.
03:10:10 <LinearInterpol> every day is a good day when you paint.. with your mind.
03:10:57 * Arufonsu plays an ascending and descending whole tone scale.
03:12:09 <LinearInterpol> the beauty of creating an esolang is that you're just defining abstractions on top of simple symbols. lots of freedom involved around that.
03:14:30 <Arufonsu> Still trying to figure out the One True Language here.
03:15:01 <LinearInterpol> ever seen a self-replicating brainfuck program? it's beautiful.
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03:20:10 <Arufonsu> Looks like this requires me to have a glib.h. What's that from?
03:21:44 <Arufonsu> But no, this is the first I've learned what glib is.
03:21:57 <Arufonsu> What about gsl, is that related to glib?
03:26:51 <Arufonsu> Apparently I actually have seven versions of glib installed.
03:27:34 <Arufonsu> Only one of them is "activated".
03:28:20 <Arufonsu> So I assume "installed" means "present somewhere" and "activated" means "present in locations where applications will look for them".
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03:50:55 <Arufonsu> All right. So, question about replifuck...
03:51:16 <Arufonsu> Like, all right, memory's been initialized. I can start the machine running, but there aren't any threads.
03:52:44 <Arufonsu> How can I fork if there are no threads?
03:53:29 <Bike> Did you mean... " Replisex " ? - French Frag Factory
03:53:34 <Bike> common typos for Replisex : Replsiex, Reolisex, Rellisex, Reppisex, Repmisex, Repkisex, Replosex, Replusex, Replksex, Replieex, Repliaex, Replidex, ...
03:55:43 <Arufonsu> Maybe there are supposed to be threads, and there just aren't.
03:57:06 <LinearInterpol> sooo just run one that has a Y in it. it'll fork it. :D
03:57:07 <Arufonsu> Here we go. If I load up a program, then there are threads.
03:57:48 <LinearInterpol> jesus will this scan finish up already, I have work in 4 hours.
03:58:07 <Arufonsu> Dang, Terminal.app doesn't work with my vim configuration at all.
03:58:45 <Arufonsu> When I load up vim, the entire terminal flashes at about a hertz.
04:00:52 <polytone> You sure you don't have "while true; do echo ^G; sleep 1; done" in there?
04:01:27 <Arufonsu> Probably has something to do with mouse reporting or 8-bit color.
04:01:50 <polytone> Terminal.app supports 256color these days, but not mouse reporting.
04:02:42 <polytone> I don't know if that'll earn you beeps, though. Usually it's the other way 'round, with the receiving program not supporting mouse commands even though the terminal does.
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04:10:25 <Arufonsu> Guess the nice thing about this is that I can just edit the source code.
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04:16:15 <Arufonsu> Wow. replifuck is currently using 1.5 gigabytes of memory.
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04:20:19 <Arufonsu> It had run for about 30,000 cycles, and there were 6,000 threads. So maybe each cycle leaked 50 kilobytes of memory, or maybe each thread was using 250 kilobytes of memory.
04:25:41 <Arufonsu> Huh. I took a core sample of the process, and this seems to indicate it spends roughly 99.9% of its time looking for matching parentheses.
04:26:22 <Arufonsu> The process was sampled 2,646 times, and of those 2,646 samples, 2,646 of them were in rf_find_matching_parentheses.
04:27:12 <Arufonsu> I dunno. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTF5z9YSs8w https://github.com/jgraef/replifuck
04:32:58 <quintopia> oh it's one of those shared-tape evolving competing programs things
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04:34:32 <Arufonsu> Okay, it looks like it was actually just that one single run that was spending 99.9% of its time looking for matching parentheses.
04:34:45 <Arufonsu> I've taken more samples of different runs, and these show that more interesting stuff is happening.
04:35:31 <Arufonsu> Oddly enough, it's spending about 2/3 of its time executing cycles, and 1/3 of its time deleting threads.
04:36:33 <Arufonsu> A majority of the time it spends executing cycles, it spends mutating randomly.
04:36:40 <Arufonsu> And most of that time is spent generating random numbers.
04:45:25 <Arufonsu> I'm gonna program in a limit to the possible jump distance.
04:46:02 <Arufonsu> What I'm confused about is how the program apparently only searches for matching brackets in one direction.
04:46:36 <Arufonsu> Maybe the ] command uses the stack to return to its [ command.
04:48:45 <Arufonsu> I'm probably gonna ping out soon. Night, everyone.
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05:22:29 <Bike> «@johnregehr: trying to generate code that makes G++ print lots of warnings; currently have a 300 KB file (after CPP) that gives ~800 MB of warnings»
05:22:54 <shachaf> does that mean he posted it or someone was addressing him
05:23:28 <ion> oh, the ambiguity
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05:32:17 <Bike> tgceec.tumblr.com
05:32:35 <Bike> if kmc hasn't heard of this then i don't know where i went wrong
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05:52:54 <kmc> that's fun
06:06:28 <kmc> that feeling of relief when people are like "Check out this AWFUL Hacker News article" but HN just won't load and I go on with my life
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07:35:34 <kmc> <l33tdecrypt0r828> it's legal <l33tdecrypt0r828> well <l33tdecrypt0r828> you won't get in trouble for it
07:37:03 <kmc> are you a bot
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07:37:36 <kmc> fungot: are you a bot
07:37:36 <fungot> kmc: teekkarikortti reminds me of descent1 musics. but if you really want
07:37:47 <kmc> fungot: you have to tell me if you're a bot
07:37:47 <fungot> kmc: he told me :) there are many people who actually do something
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08:28:24 <ion> The world’s smallest species of deer. http://angrytorro.com/fs/i/2012/12/30/5f34722ddceecfc4999fdfd31de82c.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Pudu_puda_young_Parken_Zoo.jpg http://www.odensezoo.dk/uploads/tx_zookatalog/crop.pudu_1.506x336.jpg
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09:21:46 <impomatic> Bike: is that the same John Regehr who did this http://www.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/talks/corewar/sld001.htm
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10:08:53 <fizzie> "We describe how to disable the [webcam-on notification] LED on a class of Apple internal iSight webcams used in some versions of MacBook laptops and iMac desktops. This enables video to be captured without any visual indication to the user and can be accomplished entirely in user space by an unprivileged (non- root) application.
10:08:58 <fizzie> The same technique that allows us to disable the LED, namely reprogramming the firmware that runs on the iSight, enables a virtual machine escape whereby malware running inside a virtual machine reprograms the camera to act as a USB Human Interface Device (HID) keyboard --"
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10:11:16 <ion> fizzie: :-)
10:11:26 * Timwi wonders if there is an esolang with ‘meow’ as the only keyword
10:12:42 <b_jonas> Timwi: a port of Ook to cat?
10:13:22 <b_jonas> Timwi: would an esolang with no keywords where you can put meow in the source and pretend it's a keyword count?
10:13:35 <b_jonas> like for example whitespace
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10:42:24 <Timwi> b_jonas: I actually thought of Ook too :)
10:42:46 <Timwi> quintopia: Haven’t worked on it again since the last update... but in January I think I’m definitely going to add lambda support to the compiler
10:42:52 <Timwi> Why do you ask? :)
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11:00:29 <oerjan> <Arufonsu> I've gotta say, though, /// is a pretty great language. <-- smooth.
11:04:07 <oerjan> and he might have got away with it if not for those pesky agora followers.
11:05:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18029
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11:37:42 <oerjan> <fizzie> "We describe how to disable the [webcam-on notification] LED on a class of [...] <-- you'd think the whole _point_ of a webcam LED would be to make it entirely hardware so it _cannot_ be hacked around...
11:41:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't necessarily think so
11:41:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: both kinds of led thing can make sense
11:41:54 <b_jonas> a soft led can work like the red lamp in studios to know when you're on live
11:42:40 <oerjan> i suppose... but for that, there's no point in having a led, you can just use some indicator on the screen.
11:44:39 <oerjan> anyway the idea of people hacking webcams is old enough that it's _presently_ idiotic to make a LED that doesn't protect against it.
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11:49:11 <oerjan> oh god how many weeks are they going to keep digging and drilling in the ground around here
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12:24:25 <Jafet> oerjan: the whole point of doing it in software is to make the hardware so cheap that you can annoy every laptop buyer by force-shipping it with their laptop
12:27:09 <fizzie> oerjan: They did try to make it slightly hardware.
12:27:46 <fizzie> oerjan: To go into detail, it's tied to the same pin of the USB interface chip that enables the actual camera sensor module.
12:28:24 <fizzie> oerjan: They just neglected to consider the fact that the camera sensor module has a configuration register that can be used to make it not care about that signal.
12:28:59 <Jafet> Oh, so it is in hardware but can be overridden by software.
12:29:07 <Jafet> This is a good design.
12:29:18 <fizzie> It's the USB interface chip's firmware the attack replaces, with a version that twiddles those particular camera sensor configuration bits.
12:31:00 <fizzie> (The reprogramming also requires some custom USB requests, which would require special privileges on Linux, but not on OS X.)
12:38:02 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131219-isight.png is what it looks like, and while STANDBY in the camera module is asserted (i.e., the LED is off), it cannot be used to take any pictures, normally; however, there's an I2C-addressible configuration register in the MT9V112 that has bits to override that. I guess they just couldn't find a usable "lower-level" signal from the ...
12:38:08 <fizzie> ... image sensor, and didn't want to go through the trouble of making a separate circuit to, say, control whether the image sensor gets any power, and tie the LED to that.
12:39:13 <fizzie> Still, it's "more hardwarey" than just having an entirely separate GPIO pin for the LED. Just... not enough.
12:40:19 <fizzie> (This was for 2008 models, maybe they've fixed that since then.)
12:43:35 <fizzie> I don't think my laptop even has any kind of a LED, so it could be worse!
12:45:15 <oerjan> yeah i vaguely have the idea LEDs only got popular after the hacking started
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13:19:46 <boily> good macabre morning!
13:23:36 <boily> atriq: cf. the latest Entry to the Wisdom.
13:24:20 <boily> LinearInterpol: how's the weather in Maine?
13:24:28 <atriq> (I'm atriq because now I have a bouncer which I cannot access from this computer)
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13:34:20 <HackEgo> microt: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:35:40 <metasepia> KBGR 191253Z 00000KT 8SM FEW045 BKN200 M11/M12 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP158 I1000 T11061122
13:35:48 <metasepia> CYUL 191300Z 15006KT 7SM -SN OVC032 M04/M06 A2991 RMK SC8 SLP130
13:35:55 <boily> LinearInterpol: I agree.
13:36:12 * boily is puzzled by the Innnn group...
13:38:02 <metasepia> EGNT 191320Z 23010KT 190V260 9999 FEW020 05/01 Q0994
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13:52:29 <boily> fungot it. I can't find no reference whatsoever to any occurence or documentation on Innnn.
13:52:29 <fungot> boily: i was thinking hp i guess, but i can't say i have values: foo, bar
13:52:59 <boily> fungot: I would be very surprised if HP were involved in that kind of report, and foo and bar are values of the wrong type.
13:52:59 <fungot> boily: i'll just order the records via net... i need all three right? i.e. i'm pondering it, but that might won't scale if the input was only the continuations file that was floating around
13:54:17 <boily> fungot: good idea. I should write an email over to Bangor requesting some clarifications. I need All the Possible Information! and fyi, the weather doesn't have to scale. it's the weather, after all.
13:54:17 <fungot> boily: a quill! let's interview it! :) fnord bytes now, i just couldn't stand being cut off with the 1
13:54:35 <boily> fungot: oh, an interview with an airport representative! with a fancy quill, no less!
13:54:36 <fungot> boily: unless it's from microsoft, it's not strictly required.
13:54:52 <boily> fungot: bletch. I'm a Linux guy, you heretic.
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14:17:20 <nooodl> anyone know anything about http://esolang-book.route477.net/ ? it looks interesting
14:18:02 <nooodl> it has "exercises" that are code golf. very cute
14:20:46 <boily> nooodl: えぇと…このページは日本語で書いていました…
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14:48:21 <HackEgo> bijumon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:51:11 <boily> also, आपका स्वागत है! (or maybe ਵੇਲ੍ਕੋਮੇ!)
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17:16:40 <LinearInterpol> lol. before my comp dies, I kinda simplified Arufonsu's language last night.
17:17:35 <LinearInterpol> append appends the command after it to the end of the program.
17:17:45 <LinearInterpol> delete deletes the command at the very end of the program.
17:18:21 <LinearInterpol> and null is just null. it can be used for unary representation or something.
17:19:35 <LinearInterpol> AAA -> AAAA -> AAAAA -> AAAAAA -> AAAAAAA -> AAAAAAAA -> etc.
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17:58:15 <b_jonas> LinearInterpol: what language is this? can you link?
17:59:23 <LinearInterpol> b_jonas: just "reduced" it from Arufonsu's language that he speculated about last night.
18:00:31 <LinearInterpol> it's possible to extend it to any non-reserved symbol.
18:01:47 <LinearInterpol> I included the "null operation" for shit like unary counting and a dummy symbol (good practice in my regard), but it's not required.
18:02:15 <LinearInterpol> and even without extending its operational reach you can just perform the same kind of ops with any other operation.
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18:05:17 <LinearInterpol> and LinearInterpol completes the challenge "How many times can you use the word 'operation' in a sentence?"
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18:14:21 <boily> quintopia: ¿en qué país estas tu?
18:14:54 <boily> (¡feliz año nuevo!)
18:18:07 <b_jonas> LinearInterpol: ok, but I don't get the context because I don't know the original speculation
18:18:54 <b_jonas> LinearInterpol: is it something similar to the (likely not turing complete) automatons defined in Smullyan's books (in Lady and the Tiger, and in Arabian whatsit)
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18:21:07 <Chillectual> b_jonas: nah. some dude came in last night and specified a system that modifies itself.
18:21:11 <boily> quintopia: well... it sounds very much like dominican republic... oh. you interlaced the parts.
18:21:23 <Chillectual> a system for effectively specifying self-modifying programs.
18:21:28 <boily> quintopia: so, how's the weather down there, you vile vacationer?
18:21:49 <quintopia> boily: warm and humid with bouts of light rain
18:22:09 <quintopia> don't worry, i'm still up there in the cold with you in spirit
18:22:47 <quintopia> even as i sip my included alcoholic beverages on my private beach waiting to eat at my included sushi restaurant
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18:23:39 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
18:24:07 * boily oils and hones his mapole... “the vengeance will be terrible! and polite, eh!”
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18:25:14 <boily> il semblerait pas mal que je le suis en effet.
18:25:55 <boily> ça fait étrangement un bout que j'en ai mangé. je pense que je suis dû.
18:26:14 <boily> (mais il faut pas me prendre comme exemple du québécois moderne. je mange plus de phở que de poutine.)
18:26:49 <boily> LinearInterpol: for someone who doesn't speak French, yours is quite good.
18:27:02 <boily> quintopia: it's not made to be read, but to be Experienced.
18:28:05 <boily> bah. y'a plein de langues dans le monde. le français en est juste une.
18:28:18 <boily> what languages are you studying?
18:29:14 <boily> then how many do you speak?
18:30:46 <boily> French has this tendency to be osmotically picked by people who come in contact with it.
18:31:04 <boily> where did you go? have you visited Montréal?
18:34:08 <boily> j'ai fait mon baccalauréat en génie informatique entre 2007 et 2011. je suis maintenant employé à temps plein dans une boîte de logiciels libres.
18:35:11 <boily> uhm. I'm thinking of switching jobs.
18:35:40 <boily> no, a developer in the ERP team.
18:35:49 <boily> Enterprise Resource Planning.
18:37:22 <boily> it depends. it's majoritairement more like web development, but then there are some bureaucratically hellish projects.
18:38:38 <boily> the strictness of the requirements is not bad, it's when you're stuck with vague, undefinable jargonish buzzwordian requirements that I'm irked.
18:39:00 <LinearInterpol> go into engineering! we're all about overly verbose specifications.
18:39:22 <boily> I am an engineer. I proudly wear my Iron Ring.
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18:42:51 <olsner> boily: we have an ERP system that's really really bad and I'm going to blame you for it
18:45:06 <boily> olsner: I accept responsibility. dabbling in an ERP's source code is worse for your brains than trying to read multiple necronomiconses at the same time.
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18:51:38 <boily> erp goes burp, fungot goes markov, but what does the XML say ♪
18:51:51 <olsner> fungot: fungot goes markov
18:51:51 <fungot> olsner: i should start on my bestselling book series, starting with the slow version and applying algebraic transformations of programs i use.
18:52:28 <olsner> fungot: neat, what's it about and when will it start bestselling?
18:52:28 <fungot> olsner: never heard of it. i'll give that a try
18:54:38 <boily> fizzie: I insist. your bot, it is way too sentient.
18:54:40 <fungot> shachaf: 2 gregorr: ps ( thread-id 28) created a useful/ fnord graphical diagram of the 100+ operators in the c-intercal manual, automatically translated from brainfuck constants on the wiki
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18:59:36 <fungot> b_jonas: nobody forces you to use pcre, posix regexps, or whatever
19:00:33 <boily> fungot: s//well, I do/
19:00:33 <fungot> boily: i can fnord my nick.
19:00:40 <boily> fungot: please do.
19:00:40 <fungot> boily: is my tabbing a wonky??
19:00:45 <boily> fungot: mine sure is.
19:00:45 <fungot> boily: wonder how much progress happened in the early 1980s it was that large class of people reads, do so few people use fnord chez plt weirdos use .ss, and the
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19:07:57 <oklopol> "created a useful/fnord graphical diagram of the 100+ operators in the c-intercal manual, automatically translated from brainfuck constants on the wiki"
19:08:36 <oklopol> how many sentences is that pieced together from
19:10:10 <oklopol> i mean because that's an awesome sentence.
19:14:57 <mroman> why is there still no IronScheme compiler
19:15:49 <mroman> It's almost like they want me to create my own lisp dialect and compile it myself to cil
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19:24:53 <myname> anybody knows if there is an "easy" (i.e. not involving too much java) way to make text based applications for android?
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19:25:27 <shachaf> You can use Java without using Eclipse.
19:25:35 <shachaf> What's a text-based application?
19:26:16 <boily> myname: text-based on android?
19:26:52 <boily> shachaf: you can. but when doing android development, you're way better off with and IDE and the Google libs.
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19:26:58 <myname> e.g. there is a nethack port
19:27:14 <shachaf> I made a small Android application without using Eclipse.
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19:27:22 <boily> shachaf: impressive.
19:27:33 <b_jonas> myname: the easy way is to make a webpage you run on an external server and access it from the android phone
19:27:47 <b_jonas> that doesn't need any java
19:28:04 <myname> b_jonas: i actually prefer that atm, it needs active internet connection, though
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19:29:57 <boily> with recenter android versions, the performance of the web widget isn't too bad.
19:44:38 <mrhmouse> myname: there's also MIT's app inventor
19:45:08 <oklopol> so i decided to log onto facebook from france and typoed my password
19:45:20 <oklopol> and now it's asking for my birthdate
19:45:33 <oklopol> like i'd know what i put there :P
19:45:41 <mrhmouse> myname: http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/
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20:13:46 <Bike> http://www.businessinsider.com/927-people-own-half-of-the-bitcoins-2013-12 ha ha
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20:18:16 <kmc> are those the Winklevii
20:21:29 <boily> and then, you get http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/12/why-i-want-bitcoin-to-die-in-a.html
20:29:14 <fizzie> Wasn't there just a story on how FBI owns a big pile of bitcoins.
20:30:05 <fizzie> Android keyboard on this thing, on the other hand, does not even want to *spell* bitcoin.
20:30:31 <fizzie> Nixon. Nixon. Bourdon. Bourdon. No go.
20:31:27 <quintopia> boily: i heard a fun comment on that article yesterday "this reads to me like why i don't want bitcoin to die in a fire. does this make me a libertarian?"
20:32:06 <quintopia> fizzie: all the ones they confiscated from DPR and friends
20:32:20 <Slereah_> He wants to buy drugs and child pornography
20:32:21 <kmc> i think weed should be legal, does that make me a libertarian?
20:33:30 <kmc> actually neither, but thanks for playing
20:33:33 <fizzie> It makes you a rastafarian, doesn't it.
20:33:34 <Slereah_> US libertarians care more about taxes
20:34:08 <shachaf> i think hugs should be legal
20:35:00 <olsner> kmc: it makes you a drug hippie?
20:36:11 <fizzie> In related (not actually) news, I thought I heard someone in a SA game speed-race and/or a LP video (one does browse a lot of YouTube when in bed, sick) refer to a "kmc".
20:36:25 <boily> quintopia: it just means it's healthier to burn paper money than ASICs to heat yourself.
20:36:29 <Bike> is that like kimchi
20:36:56 <fizzie> It was some kind of a person, judging from context.
20:37:48 <fizzie> (Audio quality was p. bad, v. possible they said something altogether different.)
20:38:12 <quintopia> boily: you don't need to burn them. asics provide plenty of heat when operating normally
20:38:23 <quintopia> indeed, you might consider heating your house that way
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20:39:25 <olsner> fungot: how do you heat your house?
20:39:25 <fungot> olsner: the scheme48 command processor/ repl has a wildly different integer.) still don't cut it. i just wanted to say hello to evoli. almost any other country.
20:40:17 <fizzie> (I guess it wasn't "our" (possession not implied) kmc?)
20:40:20 <oerjan> fungot: if your scheme48 command processor can heat your house, then maybe you need a more environmental cpu.
20:40:21 <fungot> oerjan: he's not online so can't really help you... but i've got it to work
20:40:39 <kmc> what game?
20:40:55 <oerjan> there is more than one kmc? shocking.
20:40:59 <fizzie> Resonance LP, I think.
20:41:34 <fizzie> oerjan: It's an Intel Atom, that ought to be environmental enough.
20:41:58 <oerjan> <boily> atangevlobriq. <-- i keep thinking that if he'd just been atrix instead, he could have been a hand cream _and_ an ancient gaul.
20:42:45 <boily> Atangevlobrix, de l'Oréal. Parce que vous le tanebbez bien.
20:43:11 <oerjan> fizzie: i take it your house is very well insulated if that's all your heating, then.
20:44:38 <fizzie> oerjan: It's not really "my house" when it's just an apartment in a building, and I don't know what kaukolämpö is in English.
20:45:12 <olsner> fungot and the kaukolämpö cooperate with the heating then?
20:45:12 <fungot> olsner: do you know rtl? must be in /pb/ though.) that runs on linux win32 and fnord fnord
20:45:13 <oerjan> hm i think gt's translation to english is rigth, but norwegian should be "fordi du fortjener det"
20:45:34 <boily> fizzie: district heating???
20:45:47 <fizzie> boily: Seems that way.
20:45:51 <olsner> boily: ah, fjärrvärme?
20:46:05 <boily> it doesn't even make sense in French! «chauffage urbain»???
20:46:13 <fizzie> olsner: Sounds quite literal.
20:46:25 <boily> fizzie: so, like, the city heats you?
20:46:29 <olsner> fizzie: yes, it's literally the swedish word
20:47:24 <fizzie> boily: It's pretty ubiquitous here for apartment buildings in an urban-enough setting.
20:47:42 <fizzie> Warm water in pipes, I believe.
20:48:00 <oerjan> boily: hm he can also be a motorola phone, it seems.
20:48:05 <fizzie> (No, Android keyboard, not warm water in puppies.)
20:48:16 <Slereah_> I wonder if any computer application uses non-integer bases
20:48:38 <Slereah_> You can write it in binary, and it has great radix economy!
20:49:41 <HackEgo> olist (935): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
20:49:58 <oerjan> boily: atrix seems to be beiersdorf, not l'oreal.
20:52:06 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:52:30 <boily> oerjan: but I can't mangle beiersdorf as well as l'oréal.
20:53:05 <fizzie> Wasn't there something re phase phi?
20:54:18 <Slereah_> There's some analog to digital thing that uses phase phi, yes
20:54:22 <boily> fungot: fizzie isn't making sense. are you stealing his sentience?
20:54:22 <fungot> boily: best distortion ever used pthread. and that's the part where he calls someone " fnord" prefix and some don't even have a grammar, hows that?
20:54:58 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> echo "The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries." > wisdom/macabre <-- incidentally i have improved `learn so it should handle that directly now.
20:55:17 <olsner> is that the same as fibonacci base or whatever those're called?
20:55:22 <Slereah_> But I am wondering for plain old real floating point thing
20:55:49 <fizzie> olsner: It did seem related to Fibonacci coding.
20:55:59 <olsner> the ratio between adjacent fibonacci numbers goes towards phi, iirc
20:56:01 <Slereah_> abcd = a*phi^3 + b*phi^2 + c*phi + d
20:56:02 <shachaf> oerjan: took it long enough
20:56:24 <HackEgo> 2009-09-06.txt:16:00:19: <AnMaster> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9343.jpg <-- not too much off, but don't remember the bit that is sticking out on the right side of the screen
20:57:20 <HackEgo> 2013-12-19.txt:20:56:05: <shachaf> `log (934)
20:57:58 <HackEgo> 2013-12-07.txt:15:47:32: <ais523> `olist 934
20:58:19 <HackEgo> 2013-12-07.txt:15:47:36: <HackEgo> olist 934: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
20:58:24 <shachaf> oerjan: there are way too many different log commands
20:58:30 <shachaf> how do i even know which one does what
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21:00:23 <FireFly> `pastalog olist.*[9][3][4]
21:00:30 <HackEgo> 2012-07-10.txt:09:17:49: <soundnfury> log pasta
21:01:06 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(a\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
21:01:11 -!- augur has joined.
21:01:28 <boily> @tell soundnfury do you use tomatoes or pesto for your logs?
21:01:30 <Bike> they signify nothing?
21:02:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/[(]a/(an\?/' bin/learn # missed one
21:02:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
21:02:35 -!- carado has joined.
21:03:07 <oerjan> `learn An omalous wisdom is anomalous.
21:03:45 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/?/\\?/' bin/learn # missed one
21:03:52 <oerjan> `learn An omalous wisdom is anomalous.
21:04:00 <HackEgo> An omalous wisdom is anomalous.
21:04:37 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 15) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 18) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird
21:04:39 <HackEgo> An omalous wisdom is anomalous.
21:04:50 <shachaf> what's the command that gives you a random quote
21:04:53 <oerjan> `run rm wisdom/{an,omalou}
21:04:59 <HackEgo> 229) <Gregor> !bfjoust furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls http://sprunge.us/eKWa * Sgeo had no idea that Gregor was hetero
21:05:11 <HackEgo> 815) <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
21:05:19 * kmc is confused by #229
21:05:39 <HackEgo> 362) <oerjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born.
21:05:43 <HackEgo> 540) <Gregor> But whereas the Zune UI makes one think "I want to kill myself", the Windows CE UI makes one think "I want to kill myself, but first kill my parents as punishment for bringing into this world someone who would one day own a Windows CE device."
21:06:05 <HackEgo> 1043) <oerjan> this new apartment stuff has interesting side effects: i'm now getting physical spam.
21:06:34 <HackEgo> 604) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS. \ 614) * Sgeo|web wants to see elliott be wrong about something <elliott> Sgeo|web: That literally never happens. <shachaf> Sgeo|web: There you go. A great example. \ 618) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has g
21:06:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quily: not found
21:06:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qungot: not found
21:07:20 <kmc> `printf '#!/bin/sh\n\nexec quote fungot' > bin/qungot && chmod +x bin/qungot
21:07:20 <fungot> kmc: the sorrow! " my little mind wondered the depth of a list as and then it all died... now, i'm sure.
21:07:21 <HackEgo> '#!/bin/sh \ \ exec quote fungot' > bin/qungot && chmod +x bin/qungot
21:07:25 <kmc> `run printf '#!/bin/sh\n\nexec quote fungot' > bin/qungot && chmod +x bin/qungot
21:07:25 <fungot> kmc: gambit has ( with-output-to-string thunk)) form1 ( lambda () ( display ( and ( x z)
21:07:34 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 15) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
21:08:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quintopia: not found
21:08:50 <Bike> `quote 618 # a good one
21:08:52 <kmc> quintopia: :D
21:09:00 <Bike> `run quote 618 # comment?
21:09:02 <HackEgo> 618) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory.
21:09:25 <HackEgo> bin/quachaf \ bin/queegan \ bin/quine \ bin/quine2 \ bin/qungot \ bin/quoerjan \ bin/quonoid \ bin/quørjan \ bin/quote \ bin/quotes
21:09:28 <HackEgo> 686) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
21:09:41 <HackEgo> allquotes | grep oerjan | shuf | head -n 1
21:10:04 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 15) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
21:10:31 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | sed 's/[^>]*> //' | grep '^`' | tail -1 #Best cheating quine ever?
21:10:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `quine: not found
21:12:01 <ion> Yay for not following the RFC
21:12:15 * boily pats his bot “Good boy!”
21:12:21 <ion> ~echo ~echo `quine
21:12:43 <ion> ~echo `echo ~echo `quine
21:13:09 <ion> quintopia: No, that kluge isn’t “good”, following the RFC would be good.
21:13:32 <quintopia> ion: what problem do you have with zero width spaces
21:14:21 <oerjan> <ion> Yay for not following the RFC <-- one day i _will_ snap and kick you for blathering about this long since unreasonable to fix issue.
21:14:59 <HackEgo> 2010-09-04.txt:23:33:36: <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, irc rfc*
21:14:59 <oerjan> well, or i might get hit by a bus first, i guess.
21:16:19 <boily> ion is someone snapped by RFCes. oerjan drives the bus that will hit himself.
21:16:41 <olsner> ion drives the bus that prevents oerjan from snapping
21:17:27 <HackEgo> wisdom/finland:Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. \ wisdom/homestuck:Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif \ wisdom/narutoverse:narutovers
21:17:49 <quintopia> i don't really understand the bus thing
21:17:53 <shachaf> `run grep -l '\bbus\b' wisdom/*
21:17:55 <HackEgo> wisdom/finland \ wisdom/homestuck \ wisdom/narutoverse \ wisdom/narutoversee
21:18:06 <oerjan> quintopia: i think the finland one is the original.
21:18:19 <boily> quintopia: it is in the Wisdom, so it is there, and it is to be.
21:18:21 <Bike> was that... a filename?
21:18:23 <oerjan> unless that's based on a meme from elsewhere.
21:18:28 <olsner> where does the name corun come from?
21:18:33 <Bike> no, wait, of course not.
21:18:46 <oerjan> `run diff narutoverse*
21:18:48 <HackEgo> diff: missing operand after `narutoverse*' \ diff: Try `diff --help' for more information.
21:19:06 <FireFly> `run diff wisdom/nautoverse* # hth
21:19:07 <HackEgo> diff: missing operand after `wisdom/nautoverse*' \ diff: Try `diff --help' for more information.
21:19:20 <quintopia> olsner: in some universe, pumpkins like to run. in this one, copumpkins corun.
21:19:22 <FireFly> I guess it helps to type correctly too
21:19:22 -!- Nithir has joined.
21:19:39 <FireFly> `run diff wisdom/narutoverse* # hth
21:19:40 <HackEgo> 1c1 \ < narutoverse is a place where they haven't heard of having a bus factor of >1. Sgeo drives the bus. \ --- \ > narutoverse is a place where they haven't heard of having a bus factor of >1.
21:19:53 <olsner> pumpkins don't run! not even the dogs fly
21:20:08 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/narutoversee
21:20:28 <boily> maintaining the Wisdom is oerjanly hard...
21:20:31 <FireFly> What about yotes? what do they do?
21:20:35 <olsner> quintopia: do bots botfly?
21:20:42 <oerjan> tip: strange filenames differing by appending e usually happens because someone misunderstands sed option syntax.
21:21:03 -!- Nithir has left.
21:21:04 <quintopia> FireFly: somewhere they mmand vertly
21:21:09 <oerjan> (you cannot combine -i and -e into -ie)
21:21:58 <olsner> hmm, so something like sed -ie asdf s,,,g creates asdfe?
21:22:39 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
21:23:42 <oerjan> olsner: well probably creates s,,,ge iirc
21:24:26 <boily> olsner: sed: impossible de lire s,,,g: Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type
21:24:31 <olsner> aah, -i takes a suffix
21:24:55 <oerjan> (you usually don't need -e at all, since one sed command argument is the default and you can concatenate them with ;)
21:25:38 <olsner> I've found that some commands refuse to concatenate though (don't remember which ones)
21:26:16 <oerjan> olsner: i expect those like a that take several lines of text to insert
21:26:25 <FireFly> I think -e predates ;, maybe
21:27:11 <olsner> hmm, you can't use ; in a script passed with -e? that might explain it
21:28:06 <oerjan> `run echo test | sed -e 's/t/u/;s/t/v/'
21:28:13 <oerjan> olsner: nope, that's not it
21:28:50 <oerjan> `run echo test | sed -e 'ayo;s/t/v/'
21:29:12 <oerjan> confirming my a suspicion.
21:29:39 <olsner> I need to locate that thing that broke, it did involve some of the "fancier" sed commands though
21:30:54 <oerjan> presumably any instance where the ; can be a continuation of the current command won't split.
21:31:31 <oerjan> and a,i,c which take text to insert would be prime examples.
21:32:07 <oerjan> `run echo test | sed -e 's/t/;/;s/t/v/'
21:32:12 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CARTE DE POULET).
21:32:37 <oerjan> `run echo test | sed -e 's;t;u;;s/t/v/'
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22:14:16 <Bike> oh man, i just coincidentally saw 'crimbo' in the wild. wtf, commonwealthers.
22:14:31 <olsner> what did that mean again?
22:14:39 <kmc> for crimbo i want bangers & mash
22:15:07 <kmc> Bike: commonwealthers? did you see it from a non-UK source?
22:15:27 <Taneb> Sounds like the kind of crap the Aussies'd say
22:15:38 <Bike> olsner: christmas
22:15:52 <Bike> kmc: i think he's uk but originally american, i just felt like being broad
22:15:56 <kmc> jimminy crimbo
22:22:13 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:26:29 <oerjan> ^unscramble aroempiunbilciacn
22:27:39 <shachaf> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/kimian.c
22:28:13 <Bike> site seems down
22:28:31 <Bike> mauke dot hopto dot org
22:28:39 -!- realzies has joined.
22:29:14 <Bike> hm. mysterious.
22:29:17 <oerjan> ^scramble aroempiunbilciacn
22:29:51 <oklopol> this table is really really sticky.
22:29:58 <shachaf> Bike: anyway it's just a quine
22:31:49 <oerjan> oh there was a s/ar/dr/
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22:33:24 <kmc> "Packing a range of Intel Xeon processors, the new Mac Pro is more than twice as fast as its predecessor, released three years ago"
22:34:06 <Bike> free range processors
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22:47:59 <oerjan> `pastlog brainfuck constants on the wiki
22:48:08 <HackEgo> 2006-10-20.txt:17:27:04: <oerjan> fine. as for those 105 plusses, take a look at Brainfuck constants on the wiki.
22:48:18 <oerjan> `pastlog brainfuck constants on the wiki
22:48:25 <HackEgo> 2006-10-20.txt:17:27:04: <oerjan> fine. as for those 105 plusses, take a look at Brainfuck constants on the wiki.
23:03:38 <Jafet> @google brainfuck constants on the wiki
23:03:38 <lambdabot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
23:03:39 <lambdabot> Title: Brainfuck constants - Esolang
23:04:03 -!- microt has joined.
23:04:18 <oerjan> exactly what it says on the tin
23:12:47 <Bike> "Unleashed my whirling dervish one last time to LMFAO's Party Rockin, now headed home to begin Crimbo break" seriously brits, these aren't real words
23:13:19 <olsner> I think a whirling dervish is a type of dance
23:13:36 <olsner> LMFAO's Party Rockin is perhaps a pop song
23:14:59 -!- muskrat_ has joined.
23:15:20 <Taneb> You know, I was sure crimbo meant criminal
23:15:43 <oerjan> it's a muslim religious dancer of sorts.
23:17:00 <oerjan> the dance consists of rotating.
23:17:04 -!- muskrat has quit (Disconnected by services).
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23:17:51 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Cf-ZxDfZA
23:25:43 <kmc> "For example, we demonstrated extracting a 4096-bit RSA key from a Lenovo ThinkPad T61 by observing the change in its chassis potential from the far side of a 10 meters long Ethernet cable"
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23:37:54 <Bike> hey kmc what was that thing with CAs and auditing mozilla was doing
23:38:06 <kmc> uh i don't remember a specific one
23:38:15 <Bike> some new system?
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23:39:33 <kmc> tell me if you find it
23:53:59 <FireFly> 99 brainfuck constants on the wiki, 99 brainfuck constants. take one down, increment it, 100 brainfuck constants on the wiki
23:54:31 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:56:54 <oerjan> or did someone add some even larger ones
23:58:05 <Bike> i think i hallucinated this thing
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00:04:38 <oerjan> FireFly: so, 257 actually.
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00:18:52 <blop> boo ! I'm a ghoooooost
00:19:53 <blop> what is this chan about ?
00:19:56 <blop> programmation ?
00:20:03 <HackEgo> blop: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:20:27 <Bike> so, yeah, programming.
00:22:34 <kmc> it's about designing programming languages which are useless on purpose rather than by accident
00:22:57 <blop> That what I'm seeing, it seems fun :)
00:23:07 <shachaf> i don't think they have to be useless
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00:24:59 <blop> the fact that to be "esoteric" don't help them to be usefull
00:26:34 <blop> every program should be writted in Brainfuck++ :))
00:28:17 <Sgeo> About the olist:
00:28:19 <Sgeo> "There are some slight changes in color and font rendering from normal, due to the fact that I'm working on a different machine with different versions of all the programs I usually use. I'll try to iron these out as we go forward."
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00:53:00 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ioun_Stone
00:56:13 <Jafet> I have never played tabletop D&D but the rules seem incredibly convoluted and arbitrary
00:56:27 <Bike> they're pretty ok except for grappling.
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01:13:52 <Sgeo> Why does The Onion have a crush on Alan Alda
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01:35:35 <shachaf> kmc: https://cure53.de/xmas2013/
01:38:52 <ion> The Cubli: a cube that can jump up, balance, and 'walk' http://youtu.be/n_6p-1J551Y
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02:46:35 <shachaf> kmc: i'm not sure how to get the data. i must be missing something
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02:46:45 <shachaf> perhaps i'll be sure if i think about it
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02:50:03 <kmc> in the UK, Christmas is known as Crimbo and Santa Claus is known as Crimbo Jones
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03:31:44 <zzo38> My IP address has now changed to 24.207.57.25. I will update the DNS when I am able to do so.
03:35:24 <quintopia> does your domain point to your own personal computer at home?
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03:36:14 <zzo38> (Well, now it doesn't work, but it will once I fix it)
03:38:56 <quintopia> do you have any github projects zzo38?
03:43:06 <zzo38> I do have some git repositories on repo.or.cz though (but they haven't been updated in a long time)
03:43:13 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/1qos6m/meta_why_does_this_subreddit_have_the_css_display/cdf7lr4?context=1
03:45:01 <zzo38> Would the Russian algorithm be better than using the algorithm I have currently used for multiplication of two sixteen-bit numbers?
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03:57:10 <ion> wat http://www.dilbertfiles.com/
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04:23:25 <ion> Where’s GarfieldFiles?
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04:41:36 <kmc> http://www.coinion.com/ "UNITED STATES DOLLAR ALMOST DOUBLES IN VALUE IN A SINGLE DAY"
04:42:06 <Bike> "SATOSHI NAKAMOTO REVEALED AS KEANU REEVES" oh hell ye
04:45:12 <ion> kmc: Yeah :-)
04:45:46 <pikhq> "The currency has been losing value for 227 years in a row."
04:46:03 <pikhq> Not actually true...
04:46:17 <pikhq> We've had years of net USD deflation. :)
04:47:12 <Bike> "This is not the first time the currency has seen a fast rise in value. On April 10th this year, it rose over 60% in a single day. However, the fast rises are dangerously deceiving: after each such gain, the currency slowly devalued each time, in what can be described a slow-motion crash." i can't tell if this is seriously supposed to be pro-bitcoin
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04:50:47 <Bike> like... i don't get the satire here. is the point that giving bitcoins value based on usd trading is silly because like
04:51:08 <kmc> tbh I didn't read the article but the headline made me laugh out loud
04:51:13 <kmc> (often the case with the onion as well)
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05:07:04 <elliott> Bike: pretty sure it's anti-bitcoin
05:08:30 <shachaf> sometimes satire doesn't have to make a strong point in favor of one side but only view things from a different perspective than usual or something
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05:10:36 <Bike> elliott: http://www.coinion.com/2013/12/07/after-bitcoin-congress-also-considering-banning-surgery-and-space-exploration-says-too-complicated/ etc
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06:15:47 <shachaf> 22:14 <echo-area> Hello. I want to learn Haskell, which book do you recommend? I have background of C, Emacs Lisp, Scheme, and Clojure programming
06:15:50 <shachaf> 22:14 <Sgeo> LYAH is popular, but... Scheme and Clojure, you're probably curious about metaprogramming to some extent
06:16:06 <shachaf> Sgeo: i think that's just you
06:16:32 <shachaf> haskell is valuable to learn for reasons not having to do with "metaprogramming"
06:17:04 <Sgeo> Sure, but the question may still come up?
06:22:41 <shachaf> "Me coming from imperative programming was never introduced to backticks in syntax."
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06:33:33 <ion> `run perl -lwe 'print `echo backticks`'
06:33:56 <shachaf> ion: perl isn't imperative enough to forbid backticks
06:43:17 <zzo38> I realized I forgot to mention an illusion I made up, in the most recent recording of Dungeons&Dragons game.
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07:27:44 <zzo38> In this "Unhuman Alliance", there is a vending machine and it sells many kind of items, including a qualitative calculator, a cloak of invisibility to humans, a sign with "Oak: Now is not the time to use that!" written on it, a suitcase, a portable spaceship, a half red and half invisible pill, and you can buy one or two eggs, but buying two eggs costs less than buying only one.
07:28:01 <Bike> what's a qualitative calculator
07:28:41 <zzo38> Bike: I think it is a calculator that can only display "+", "-", and "0". I wouldn't think it is very good.
07:29:35 <zzo38> I don't know how large a vending machine has to be to sell suitcases (or portable spaceships, however that works), either.
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07:42:48 <zzo38> If a hole in a ceiling is blocked by a hovering platform, how should the bottom of the platform be described?
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07:43:57 <Bike> 'there was a shitload of wind coming down'
07:45:11 <kmc> a windload of shit
07:45:44 <zzo38> I mean the appearance of the platform itself (and how it would appear in such a position), and anyways it is able to fly without wind for some reason.
07:46:32 <Bike> there's a hole in the ceiling. with your keen deductive powers, you notice that it is blocked, but with a few hands of leeway
07:46:35 <Bike> i assume you use horse units
07:48:11 <zzo38> Well, I am sorry I made a mistake; it isn't really a hole, but rather the ceiling simply extends much higher so it is another room above with no walls to separate it from the room below (you cannot enter unless you fly or use the hover platform)
07:48:29 <Bike> you see a hole in the see-ling. a few hands above the hole there's some kind of flat expanse. you think you can see miniature people walking upside down on the expanse. they have constructed a small civilization. you wonder what will happen when they build skyscrapers.
07:50:19 <Bike> after some thought, you realize that, small as the upside-down people are - a few millithumbs at most - skyscrapers will be too adversely affected by forces such as turbulence to be constructed, even though at your scale these things don't matter so much. you reflect on how tall you really are.
07:51:43 <Bike> I don't know how tall your characters are.
07:52:31 <zzo38> There aren't any people standing on the bottom part of the hovering platform. Even if there was, it wouldn't work if the platform is coming back down!
07:52:52 <Bike> It would work, you'd just crush them. Good moral quandary for your players.
07:53:15 <zzo38> And anyways characters of different height might come in the room where this is viewed from (the same room containing the vending machine).
07:53:54 <Bike> You see a hole in the ceiling. A few hands above the hole, there is a small flat surface. It's probably a hover platform. You wonder why they don't just hang it from the ceiling with chains or something. You briefly start charting out a potential pulley system to save on magic energy before being interrupted by the vending machine.
07:54:43 <zzo38> I can use something like that perhaps
07:55:02 <Bike> Maybe it actually uses a pulley system. It's not like you can see above the platform. But you're used to magicians being ridiculous and hard to deal with by now. What the heck is a portable rocket?
07:55:05 <zzo38> Although like I said it isn't really a hole
07:55:30 <Bike> I'm not sure I understand what you meant. Does it slope?
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07:55:52 <zzo38> It is an adjoining room without any partitions, except that instead of next to it on the ground, it is above.
07:56:18 <Bike> so... how do you see up there?
07:56:29 <Bike> Like is there a door or something.
07:56:42 <Bike> a ceiling-door
07:57:17 <zzo38> No, there is no door, but the actual ceiling is higher than it should be for one room (since the adjoining rooms that are to the north, south, east, west do not have such a high ceiling)
07:59:00 <Bike> This room is much higher than the room you were just in; in fact, it looks to be twice as high. You see rooms adjoining above you. There is no floor, but you can see a hovering platform potentially useful for upper-room-halling. You wonder how you can incorporate all this into your next Octopus of the World game.
07:59:47 <zzo38> And there is actual things in the room above like if someone can fly they can use them, or someone standing on a hovering platform can also use it even if you cannot fly.
08:00:34 <Bike> As you walk into the room, you immediately notice the ceiling. It is higher than the rest of the ceilings you've seen, and also covered in a mural-style still-life of a piece of cheesecake. A cherry on the cake is obscured by a hovering platform.
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08:01:10 <Bike> What kind of sick fucker puts a cherry on cheesecake, you think to yourself
08:01:49 <zzo38> Maybe people who like to make cherry cheesecake, will do so.
08:04:20 <Bike> You are filled with dread as you walk into the room. Your eyes inch up and - yes, the room is too tall. After a deep breath, you steal a quick glance straight up - oh thank god, there's a small hovering platform directly above you. But you know this room is going to be hell on your reverse fear of heights.
08:07:57 <Sgeo> ...compile-time unit testing
08:08:07 <Bike> You stop in the room to consider your surroundings. As that hovering platform always been there? You realize Marge must have put it in. Why would she do that? The room was perfectly fine as it was, with the next story's rooms inaccessible. Why can't she understand your design sense? This is why you broke up.
08:11:02 <Bike> The room must be forty hands tall. What the fuck? Why? A platform floats stilly above you and you spit at it. This is fucked.
08:11:13 <Bike> Feel free to stop me when you've got what you need
08:11:47 <zzo38> I will tell you if any of it is seem OK for this purpose, but so far it doesn't
08:13:28 <Bike> The main feature of the room is a platform hovering above you, about as high as the last room's ceiling. The bottom is spiked, with one main "stalactite" hanging down at last three hands. The spikes are colorfully festooned with party streamers and Christmas decorations. You assume that the force keeping them up must be the force keeping the platform itself airborne.
08:16:01 <Bike> A platform hangs above, as ponderous as a pregnant person's breasts. It sways idly, lustily. You know you shall have to conquer it to proceed.
08:16:41 <Bike> Still no good? Can I get some feedback?
08:16:51 <zzo38> Usually the hovering platform is *not* above; it is much closer to the ground so someone can stand on it. It will be above if someone else is using it though.
08:17:14 <Bike> Why'd you start out by asking how to describe the bottom then?
08:17:37 <zzo38> Well, really I should describe both the bottom and the top, actually!
08:17:58 <zzo38> But, it is a MUD, so anyone can try to access it to view them; they are set "examinable" so anyone can view the program if you want to.
08:18:08 <Bike> Frankly I feel you should have given more information if you expected me to be able to write clearly.
08:18:18 <Bike> Well, not clearly, just appropriately.
08:18:19 <zzo38> Probably you are correct.
08:18:53 <Bike> Does the player character have a dead relative?
08:19:24 <shachaf> zzo38: buying two eggs costs less than buying only one in a story by lewis carroll
08:19:26 <zzo38> There may be many characters, so maybe they don't have a dead relative; I don't know if they have a dead relative or not!
08:19:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I know, I have read about that too
08:19:50 <Bike> If they have no dead relatives that implies a lot.
08:20:02 <Bike> I mean, all living things in the real world have a dead relative.
08:20:40 <zzo38> O, then probably they do have some dead relative. (Except for unusual circumstances...)
08:21:11 <Bike> What if they were created by magic, as in the Borges story, "The Circular Ruins"?
08:21:42 <shachaf> Bike: oh, wait, all these descriptions were unrelated?
08:21:48 <shachaf> i was reading this as one continuous story
08:22:04 <Bike> death of the author and all, man.
08:22:08 <shachaf> and also i didn't read the beginning
08:22:13 <shachaf> i thought it was just spontaneous
08:22:28 <Bike> There is no beginning and no end. There is only you, the room, and the platform.
08:22:31 <Bike> (that's another description)
08:23:39 <Bike> The platform is about four hands on a side, a standard Tsblisi elevator model. You note that the secondary thrust has been vandalized by someone named Tina.
08:25:57 <doesthiswork> why is the symbol for bottom _|_ rather than (_|_)?
08:26:08 <Bike> Because that looks like a butt.
08:26:30 <Bike> You pause to examine the platform. You imagine it can be used to go to the higher level, but you have no interest in that right now. There is only Sandwich.
08:26:34 <zzo38> doesthiswork: It isn't supposed to be _|_ that is just the ASCII format of it.
08:27:48 <Bike> A chorus of voices erupt. WELCOME TO THE PLATFORM ROOM, they say. YOU CAN USE THIS PLATFORM TO ASCEND AND DESCEND, BUT ONLY WITHIN THIS ROOM. You examine the platform and imagine that the voices are correct, but you wonder if that too isn't just a delusion brought on by the drug.
08:28:45 <Bike> Since it's a MUD I imagine you'll have to have descriptions for lots of situations, like if a character has ingested a "drug" (actually a nanomachine cocktail, but they don't know that) to induce schizotypal behavior so that they can infiltrate the platform-building cult.
08:29:33 <Bike> Or I mean, they could have taken the drug just for kicks. You can reuse the description.
08:29:52 <Bike> This MUD does have recreational drugs, right?
08:29:56 <zzo38> The MUD isn't made up entirely by myself either, some some areas and items are.
08:30:18 <zzo38> And as far as I know there aren't any drugs, but I didn't see everything so maybe someone did make up such a thing in there too.
08:30:35 <Bike> No harm in planning ahead, then.
08:30:45 <Bike> Vis a vis #drugz.
08:32:46 <Bike> You examine the platform, but you have no particular skill in discerning uses of objects. You guess that it's magical, since it's hovering a bit above the ground, but it's not marked or anything to indicate that. As you stare it jiggles invitingly.
08:34:43 <Bike> Characters may have different skillsets, see.
08:36:05 <zzo38> Ah, OK. Yes maybe some characters might fly, too, in which case you don't need to use such a hovering platform. And some character might have a moldy scroll to teleport into someone else's location (only of the location they happen to be in has "jumpok" flag set, though).
08:36:35 <zzo38> So there can be other skillsets too
08:37:53 <Bike> Sounds complicated.
08:40:15 <Bike> You can't help but scoff at the platform. You remember when you were a trainee, and had to use these platforms to get around. They were so slow and always breaking down. You hop in the air a bit, just to mock the memory represented before you.
08:43:50 <Bike> You consider the platform before you, and in return it considers you. Without asking you know that it is only a tool. Its awareness only extends as far as passengers and a concept of height. It can't even control that, you notice disdainfully.
08:44:17 <Bike> That's for any characters with the psychic power of panpsychism who are also assholes.
08:45:01 <Bike> Is there an asshole stat?
08:45:32 <zzo38> Anyone can make up whatever stats you want using the @field command, so such a thing is possible.
08:45:50 <Bike> Very forward-thinking.
08:46:20 <Bike> Is there a hugs field?
08:46:31 <zzo38> (However there is some exceptions, such as field names starting with a dot, and a few other fields don't work with it either, but most do.)
08:46:53 <zzo38> Bike: Again, it is possible to make one up; you can make up whatever field you want (with a few exceptions).
08:47:06 <Bike> Well has someone alreayd made it up?
08:47:27 <zzo38> I don't think so, but I can't see everything!
08:48:02 <Bike> You can write descriptions for a game you're not administrating?
08:48:34 <Bike> Or have you just been wasting my time.
08:49:02 <shachaf> Bike: p. sure only one person here has been wasting your time
08:49:12 <shachaf> and it isn't zzo38 (or me)
08:49:28 <Bike> obviously a hugs field isn't a waste of time.
08:49:37 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
08:50:05 <zzo38> Bike: Yes it is possible, in that MUD anyways it is possible.
08:50:50 <shachaf> zzo38: if i'm ever in vancouver can i hug you
08:50:52 <Bike> HAVE YOU JUST BEEN WASTING MY TIME?! you angrily shout at the platform. IS THIS ALL A JOKE TO YOU?
08:50:54 <zzo38> Anyone with the 'builder' flag set on themself can create objects. Anyone who isn't guest can set fields and stuff on themself and anything they created. Also, everyone who isn't guests automatically has the 'builder' flag set anyways.
08:51:00 <Bike> That's if you have a nethack-like hallucination effect.
08:51:05 <zzo38> shachaf: You can try, but I doubt it.
08:51:20 <Bike> You doubt hugs?
08:52:05 <zzo38> No, I mean I doubt you will be in the same place (even if it is the same city), and I might try to stop you anyways
08:52:18 <Bike> So you don't like hugs?
08:52:23 <shachaf> Bike: if i'm ever in middle of nowhere, wa can i hug you
08:52:42 <Bike> um, i guess. i'm pretty awkward.
08:54:03 <shachaf> did i mention that some russian people took my javascript gif player and added audio support using a custom audio block they added to gif
08:54:21 <shachaf> so now they have a file format for animated pictures along with audio
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08:57:45 <shachaf> i get so many .ru referers
08:57:50 <shachaf> but most of them are referer spam :'
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09:00:51 <shachaf> do spammers have no honour
09:02:45 <kmc> how does referer spam work
09:03:41 <shachaf> people make fake requests to your website using some referer
09:06:58 <shachaf> i guess because people look at their referers?
09:07:11 <kmc> why don't they do something else with their time
09:07:29 <shachaf> isn't it exciting when people talk about you
09:08:17 <shachaf> i wanted to make a thing so i could watch people using my website in realtime
09:08:25 <shachaf> and open a chat box and so on
09:09:11 <shachaf> actually i have the feeling i wouldn't care to talk to most of my referals
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09:34:42 <HackEgo> hauke: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
09:34:58 <shachaf> hmm, i'm too tired for this
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09:47:46 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/DJbB stat-time
09:49:18 <fizzie> (For 201*, commands containing l, c, m in that order, some of the ones ending in : were probably replies.)
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09:52:01 <fizzie> (relcome still has some catching up to do.)
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09:53:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found
09:55:32 <mauke> the german welcome in https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf has a comma that shouldn't be there
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09:56:55 <HackEgo> Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen, besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
09:57:03 <shachaf> `run cat wisdom/willkommen
09:57:05 <HackEgo> Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen, besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
09:57:48 <shachaf> Oh, even preflex is here. This is great.
09:58:57 <preflex> re "REGEX" STRING - test STRING against REGEX
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10:00:29 <mauke> preflex: re ".{.*}." asdf
10:00:29 <preflex> match: [0-4: asdf] [0:1-3: sd]
10:00:44 <mauke> nice, it still works
10:01:28 <fizzie> fungot: Go ahead, say hello.
10:01:29 <fungot> fizzie: and i think sicp or something. away, trying to focus on matters more relevant to making everything a set. now he wants it above the definition
10:02:31 <mauke> preflex's re command uses the regex engine from ploki
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10:08:30 <fizzie> `run welcome | hyphenate.fi # shachaf: close enough?
10:08:32 <HackEgo> Wel-co-me to the in-ter-na-ti-o-nal hub for e-so-te-ric prog-ram-ming lan-gu-a-ge de-sign and dep-lo-y-ment! For mo-re in-for-ma-ti-on, check out our wi-ki: <http://e-so-langs.org/wi-ki/Main_Pa-ge>. (For the ot-her kind of e-so-te-ri-ca, try #e-so-te-ric on irc.dal.net.)
10:09:45 <shachaf> `run ls -l bin/hyfinate; cat bin/hyfinate
10:09:47 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 12 Sep 25 13:06 bin/hyfinate -> hyphenate.fi \ #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'my$vow=qr/[aeiouyäö]/i;my$con=qr/[b-df-hj-np-tv-xz]/i;1while s/($vow$con*)($con$vow)/$1-$2/g;1while s/a[eoyäö]|e[aoäö]|i[aoäö]|o[aeyäö]|u[aeyäö]|y[aeouä]|ä[aeouö]|ö[aeouä]/my@s=split"",$&;$s[0]."-".$s[1]/egi'
10:09:57 <Jafet> I assume prog ramming refers to the jousts.
10:14:08 <Jafet> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl
10:17:33 <fizzie> `run head -n 1 bin/* | grep -a '^#!' | sed -e 's/! /!/;s/ .*//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr
10:17:35 <HackEgo> 64 #!/bin/sh \ 25 #!/bin/bash \ 13 #!/usr/bin/env \ 10 #!/usr/bin/perl \ 3 #!/usr/bin/python \ 2 #!/hackenv/bin/lua \ 1 #!/usr/bin/tail \ 1 #!/hackenv/bin/rec \ 1 #!/bin/true
10:17:53 <fizzie> /bin/true: best interpreter.
10:18:10 <Jafet> I like /bin/cat myself
10:18:33 <mauke> every program a quine
10:18:39 <fizzie> Never complains, unlike those so-called programming languages tend to.
10:18:48 <mauke> ploki never complains either
10:19:57 <fizzie> `run grep bin/true bin/*
10:24:37 <HackEgo> bash: beep: command not found
10:26:12 <Jafet> `run echo $'\xe2\x81\xa3'
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10:31:57 <shachaf> hmm, advertising that "the GUI is themeable" is probably a strong negative signal on the quality of software
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11:42:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wii: not found
11:43:05 <fizzie> Wii Shachaf, the unannounced successor of Wii U.
11:43:32 <fizzie> (Everyone's going to want one.)
11:43:40 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: oh, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ioun_Stone <-- i don't think burlew has paid attention to the shapes listed.
11:44:30 <oerjan> also, the colors are hard to determine. i guess blackwing snatched an orange one.
11:44:46 <oerjan> i somehow wouldn't think laurin the type to have a deep red one.
11:45:15 <oerjan> and exactly which green variant is that...
11:45:29 <oerjan> so maybe he's not paid much attention to the colors either.
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11:47:07 * oerjan steps by the oots forum
11:47:43 * oerjan remembers he had food he was supposed to eat
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12:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1taral/why_do_theorems_in_complex_analysis_feels/
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12:57:55 * boily glares at quintopia
12:58:29 <metasepia> CYUL 201250Z 03014KT 3SM -SN DRSN OVC040 M07/M09 A3002 RMK NS8 SLP169
12:59:34 <metasepia> MDPC 201300Z 09012KT 9999 FEW019 27/22 Q1018
13:00:31 <metasepia> EFHK 201250Z 23009KT 9999 FEW014 03/02 Q1010 NOSIG
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13:28:51 <metasepia> ESSA 201320Z 18012KT CAVOK 03/00 Q1009 R01L/29//95 R08/29//95 R01R/29//95 NOSIG
13:29:12 <metasepia> ENVA 201320Z 09005KT CAVOK M01/M03 Q0999 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 16011KT
13:29:29 <boily> FireFly: we're undergoing our second snowstorm right now.
13:30:09 <oerjan> no snow forecast for christmas here
13:31:15 <metasepia> CYUL 201324Z 03016KT 1SM R06L/P6000FT/D R06R/P6000FT/D -SN DRSN OVC020 M08/M09 A3002 RMK SN2NS6 SLP168
13:33:43 <ais523> haha, TIL (from comp.lang.c) that the numeric constant "0" in C is in octal
13:33:59 <ais523> I guess it doesn't really matter
13:34:30 <FireFly> I guess that kind of makes sense
13:34:42 <boily> but... it doesn't change nothing!
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13:54:33 <HackEgo> allquotes | grep -i "<$1>" | shuf | head -n 1
13:54:52 <HackEgo> 1097) <boily> I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD.
13:55:34 <fizzie> What a useless use of head.
13:57:05 <fizzie> `run sed -i -e 's/| head //' bin/quoth # gonna bork it up somehow...
13:57:13 <HackEgo> allquotes | grep -i "<$1>" | shuf -n 1
13:57:30 <boily> what the fungot was I thinking about when I mentioned “goat memory”...
13:57:30 <fungot> boily: i just like the last one worked, at which point it is all pattern matching and generally the ppl good at that
13:58:09 <fizzie> Goat memory is all pattern matching, anyway.
14:20:09 <quintopia> boily: you need to implement a new language based on goat memory
14:21:44 <quintopia> also why do star trek wikis have entries for goat
14:22:11 <Slereah_> There are goats in the star trek universe
14:23:08 <quintopia> LinearInterpol: you really need to stop copying me
14:23:30 <Slereah_> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jackal
14:28:53 <ais523> there's a "Jackal" entry on NetHackWiki too
14:29:20 <ais523> although it redirects to "Canine"
14:29:23 <Slereah_> Nethack does have jackals, though
14:29:25 <ais523> because there's not enough to write about jackals on their own
14:30:06 <boily> http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Jackal ← an uncaninedirected roguewiki jackalian entry
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15:02:53 <boily> dhelloesthiswork. mrhmoushello.
15:26:08 <ais523> why is my printf lying
15:26:19 <ais523> !c printf("%c\n", 0x3f);
15:26:29 <ais523> that's more believable
15:27:35 <mrhmouse> I just got the best exception message.
15:27:56 <mrhmouse> This is the entire message: The length of the parameter 'Ȁbit᨞䀀眀攀攀欀攀渀搀䠀漀甀爀猀Ȁ<CTCP>Ȃ戀椀琀툀Ỹ@eĂȀbitᐞ䀀洀椀挀爀漀猀椀琀攀Ȁ<CTCP>ᘂЀÈ
15:30:46 <mrhmouse> I got it while calling DeriveParameters on a SqlCommand object (.NET code).
15:31:05 <mrhmouse> The best part - it only happens the _third_ time I call DeriveParameters. Consistently.
15:31:09 <ais523> what's the command to tell gdb to reread a save file?
15:32:44 <ais523> aha, using "directory" with a directory that's already there works
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15:50:32 <boily> (the joys of using rxvt-unicode! you can hold ctrl-shift, and type the codepoint)
15:50:46 <HackEgo> [U+7F7F CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-7F7F]
15:51:54 <HackEgo> [U+CAFE HANGUL SYLLABLE JJWAELM] [U+BABE HANGUL SYLLABLE MOJ]
15:54:54 <fizzie> I guess `unicode should also accept code points (in flexible formats) addition to character names.
15:55:04 <fizzie> `unicode CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-7F7F
15:55:12 <ais523> boily: I typoed it in Emacs
15:55:21 <ais523> and thought it looked pretty
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15:58:23 <boily> neither nciku nor wwwjdic have any info on it. the first hit on google is a page in Chinese → http://www.zdic.net/z/21/js/7F7F.htm
15:58:54 <boily> oh! wiktionary has it → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%BD%BF
15:59:14 <fizzie> "Definition in English: net catch birds", says gucharmap
15:59:53 <boily> so, U+7F7F is the net result of the birds you caught after taxes and fees.
16:24:38 <FireFly> You're EgoBot, not EdBot, darn it.
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17:24:26 <`^_^v> hey guys, why do programmers always think christmas is halloween?
17:24:34 <`^_^v> because 31 oct = 25 dec
17:25:54 <quintopia> because programmers are 1) idiots and 2) notoriously bad at implemeting datetime to iso standards
17:26:03 <quintopia> i think only one person ever has managed it
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17:50:12 <mroman> Are there any simple stack based languages
17:52:42 <ais523> although it is very, very stack based
17:55:52 <ais523> no, it's full of BF derivatives
17:55:58 <ais523> there's a stack-based category, though, I think
17:56:59 <quintopia> ais523: stack-based BF derivatives!
17:57:15 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-PDA ← there you go
17:57:30 <ais523> although it's intentionally sub-TC
18:05:27 <HackEgo> ski: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:05:30 <HackEgo> atrapado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:07:59 -!- muskrat has joined.
18:08:40 <ski> (SKI-combinators is not stack based)
18:10:05 <boily> are there combinators for stack manipulation?
18:12:20 <FreeFull> Kitten and Factor aren't very simple either
18:16:41 <FireFly> boily: highly relevant: http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html
18:18:14 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: indeed.
18:18:23 <boily> FireFly: veryndeed.
18:19:25 <boily> hey. unit is pure/return/unit/arr...
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18:21:29 <kmc> ski on SKI
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18:40:07 <mroman> I'm looking for a with reasonable effort portable to the .NET plattform language
18:40:15 <mroman> that has not already been ported to it
18:41:02 <ski> boily : you forgot `/eta/η'
18:41:10 <ski> (and `arr' is a bit different)
18:42:18 <boily> well. are is arr, fsvo arr.
18:42:36 <Bike> there are three COBOL implementations for the JVM. mroman, your course is clear
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18:49:14 <Arufonsu> Hey, is it all right if I monologue about software interfacing? Okay, great.
18:49:56 <zzo38> Arufonsu: I don't mind; see if someone does though after you write something other than just asking if it is OK or not
18:50:11 <Arufonsu> Currently, the lingua franca of computing is C. A library is portable across languages if you can write a C header file for it.
18:50:20 <boily> Arufonsu: I have no problem with that, as long as the rant is in French.
18:50:35 <zzo38> Well, I want it to be in English!
18:50:36 <Bike> Yes, the lingua franca should probably be a better language COBOL
18:50:49 <LinearInterpol> Bike: watch yer tongue, ye be speakin' forbidden phrases.
18:52:36 <Bike> have you ever even seen a cobol program
18:54:15 <boily> if you assemble every capital letter ever written chronologically in all of the programming languages, they form the Ultimate Transformer Cobol Program!
18:54:59 <zzo38> Writing a C header file isn't enough; also you should have the programs to work between the different programming languages as necessary. For example to allow a function from some other library to work in SQL (specifically, SQLite), you still need to write a C code to load the SQL functions and translate the data types into those used by the function and used in SQL databases.
18:55:14 <Bike> https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/1ca57f7a260c72d36d96 just look at this elegance
18:56:12 <Arufonsu> zzo38: SQLite isn't a programming language, though. I don't think SQLite itself provides a means to import foreign functions, does it?
18:56:20 <Bike> horrifying with no advancing
18:56:39 <zzo38> Arufonsu: It does, although you have to write the importing in a C code, not in a SQL code. And, SQL is a programming language.
18:57:17 <LinearInterpol> zzo38: writing a C header file is usually enough for other languages.
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18:57:40 <boily> what surprises me is that github has COBOL highlighting, but not cabal highlighting.
18:58:06 <zzo38> In Haskell at least, you need to also write the Haskell code to deal with it, although you don't need to write another C code.
18:59:19 <LinearInterpol> zzo38: that's how it is in other languages too, and they each have varying degrees of layering between you and the header file.
18:59:26 <mroman> but it looks like it's difficult to get any documentation about it
18:59:41 <Arufonsu> Anyway, thing is, a C header file pretty much describes ways bytes can go each direction. But with many if not most programming languages, objects can't just be turned into bytes and back, since the runtime environment keeps track of object metadata.
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19:02:40 <zzo38> Arufonsu: Yes, although they may have data structures that have pointers to keep track of, and may need the code to tell it how to do.
19:02:51 <Arufonsu> Like, suppose you have a Haskell function String -> String. If you want C code to be able to access it, could you just give the C code a pointer to the function and provide it a way to call the function?
19:03:16 <Arufonsu> Not really, because then you never know when the C code is done using the function, so you don't know when to garbage collect it.
19:05:00 <zzo38> Yes, dealing with callbacks like that can be difficult due to those reasons you specify.
19:07:13 <Arufonsu> I think the One True Model of computing is an actor model, where there are a bunch of objects, and objects can perform actions, and objects are only ever created or deleted manually.
19:08:23 <Arufonsu> Conceptually, perhaps every object in a Haskell system implements the GarbageCollectableObject interface, and the garbage collector has a reference to every single one of those objects.
19:09:43 <zzo38> Some things that use callbacks can also be done without callbacks in whatever way work for the programming language in use, or using a different kinds of callbacks.
19:09:47 <Arufonsu> Actor, agent, same cotton candy.
19:10:54 <Arufonsu> *shrug* I don't know what the difference is, and I don't know which one I mean.
19:11:19 <LinearInterpol> an actor model and an agent model specify opposite approaches.
19:11:37 <LinearInterpol> an actor model is essentially a message passing system.
19:12:21 <LinearInterpol> being passive, it's only active once there is data flowing in.
19:12:38 <Arufonsu> So if you want to access some Haskell object from C, you could just access it directly, but it might vanish at any time. Instead, I suppose you'd want to create a GarbageCollectableObject yourself, informing the garbage collector of its existence, and telling the garbage collector it has a reference to the object you're interested in.
19:13:26 <Arufonsu> So what's an agent model, then?
19:13:59 <zzo38> In a Haskell code you could create a context (perhaps using a monad) that contains the data and things you need, might be one possibility
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19:17:33 <Arufonsu> Looks like agents are a lot like system processes.
19:17:46 <Arufonsu> They can run spontaneously and access globally-named resources.
19:17:53 <zzo38> But whether you want enumerations, events, etc you may want different ways in a different programming language. For example in SQL, if you want the function to make a list of results, you can define a virtual table to do that, perhaps.
19:18:29 <LinearInterpol> that can take input and give output from and to the environment.
19:19:04 <boily> meanwhile, happy tune → http://protodome.bandcamp.com/track/oh-i-feel-just-fine-because-im-making-macaroni
19:19:28 <Arufonsu> Yeah, my gut reaction is to say I like the actor model better.
19:21:52 <Arufonsu> Now, it seems like there's pretty much a certain, specific set of extra stuff that runtime environments might give to objects.
19:23:18 <Arufonsu> Garbage collection is the main one. If you had an OS where all the objects on the system use a single garbage collector, then runtime environments wouldn't need to worry about that, and you could freely pass references between environments without worrying about garbage collection.
19:33:53 <Arufonsu> I think I once made a list of fancy features that environments have. Along these lines: garbage collection, concurrency, access control, persistence.
19:34:35 <Arufonsu> I noted that no system seems to have all of them. Lua has garbage collection and access control, but not concurrency or persistence. Lua is one of the few environments that has access control.
19:34:50 <Arufonsu> Smalltalk has garbage collection, concurrency, and persistence, but not access control. Smalltalk is one of the few environments that has persistence.
19:35:10 <Arufonsu> I guess Unix itself has concurrency, access control, and persistence. But it doesn't have any kind of system-wide garbage collection.
19:36:08 <kmc> lots of things have system-wide refcounting though
19:37:01 <kmc> the Linux kernel has a garbage collector to deal with sending UNIX sockets through other UNIX sockets
19:40:06 <FreeFull> I didn't think sending sockets through sockets was a thing
19:40:16 <Arufonsu> Now, using Unix domain sockets, can a more privileged process send a file handle or whatever to a less privileged process, thereby allowing the less privileged process to access a file it wouldn't normally be able to?
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19:46:35 <kmc> Arufonsu: believe so, yes
19:46:41 <kmc> this lets you do capability-like things
19:46:59 <kmc> FreeFull: you can send any file descriptor through a socket
19:47:56 <kmc> you can also send a struct with your uid and gid in such a way that it can't be forged
19:48:12 <kmc> so this allows a more-privileged daemon to authenticate requests from less-privileged users and then do things on their behalf
19:48:44 <kmc> a friend of mine argued convincingly that all setuid programs should be replaced with such daemons
19:50:49 <FreeFull> You can also use something like linux's more advanced permissions
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20:09:47 <Arufonsu> Now, with Linux, if I want a bunch of processes that can't interact with each other or anything that isn't world-accessible, can I just give them all UIDs that are otherwise unused?
20:12:34 <kmc> they can still interact in lots of ways
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20:28:24 <Arufonsu> Yeah, true, but they can't damage each other, right?
20:28:32 <Arufonsu> Except by using up lots of system resources or something, maybe...
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20:28:46 <kmc> or exploiting security holes in each other or the kernel
20:30:10 <FreeFull> Exploiting holes in each other shouldn't be possible if they have no access to each other whatsoever
20:30:29 <kmc> but that's my point, processes have lots of access to each otehr
20:30:47 <kmc> for example they share a filesystem, a network subsystem, etc
20:31:14 <kmc> if you want to strongly isolate things then you need stuff like cgroups and the various namespaces (pid, network, mount, etc.)
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20:44:25 <Arufonsu> Are you saying there are different pid namespaces?
20:44:44 <kmc> in Linux? yes, it has all kinds of namespace stuff http://lwn.net/Articles/531114/
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20:48:43 <Arufonsu> Dang. Namespaces look really cool.
20:52:24 <Arufonsu> And then it looks like LXC is an application that actually uses them to provide a virtual Linux environment within another Linux environment. Is that right?
20:53:14 <Arufonsu> Whelp, I like the E programming language.
20:53:37 <kmc> Arufonsu: i believe so
20:53:48 <Arufonsu> It has access control and concurrency. You figure it probably has garbage collection, right? And I feel like it's likely to have persistence as well.
20:56:31 <fizzie> LXC is one such application; there are more.
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21:06:36 <metasepia> CYUL 202024Z 03010G15KT 3/4SM R06L/5000VP6000FT/D R06R/6000FT/D -SN VV006 M07/M09 A2997 RMK SN8 SLP150
21:06:49 <boily> oh, VV! haven't seen that on since last winter :D
21:07:13 <metasepia> EGNT 202050Z 21021G38KT 180V240 9999 -RA SCT015 BKN020 10/07 Q1000
21:07:27 <Taneb> I still can't read it but I like looking at it
21:07:42 <metasepia> KGRR 202053Z 07007KT 3SM -FZRA BR OVC007 01/M01 A2976 RMK AO2 SLP084 P0000 60007 T00061011 56006 $
21:07:59 <Arufonsu> Yup, I don't know what that means.
21:08:00 <boily> Arufonsu: michigan?
21:08:56 <boily> Arufonsu: your weather says: report issued at 8:53pm UTC today, 7 knot east-north-east winds, ground visibility 3 mi, light freezing rain, fog...
21:09:13 <Arufonsu> 01/M01? So the temperature is 1 C and the frost point is -1 C?
21:09:51 <Arufonsu> Aren't they pretty much the same thing, except frost is frozen and dew isn't?
21:10:34 <boily> they're surface water.
21:11:08 <boily> also, your station needs maintenance (the “$” at the end)
21:11:20 <Taneb> boily, what does mine say?
21:12:44 <Arufonsu> So what's the significance of the dew point below freezing?
21:13:01 <boily> Taneb: report at 8:50pm UTC, quite a lot of wind (21 knots, gusts at 38 knots) from the southwest, ground visibility OK, light rain, scattered clouds at 1500', broken clouds at 2000', 10 °C, dew point at 7 °C, QNH at 1000 hPa.
21:13:32 <boily> Arufonsu: it's... below freezing, I guess. I think I'll have to research more details about dew point.
21:14:15 <Arufonsu> Yeah, but surely no dew is going to form if it's below freezing.
21:14:49 <boily> probably «givre», then.
21:14:59 <boily> also, “If the dew point is below freezing (32°F or 0°C), we instead use the term frost point.” ← http://geography.about.com/od/physicalgeography/a/dewpoint.htm
21:15:49 <boily> “there is nothing special about the temperature being below freezong or below zero... solid ice (frost) rather than as liquid water” ← http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/wea00/wea00061.htm
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21:41:31 <oerjan> 18:22:14:* boily observes kmc
21:41:38 <oerjan> kmc: so, do you feel particularly collapsed?
21:42:34 <kmc> oh i get it
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21:47:18 <LinearInterpol> wavefunctions have stagefright, so when they're observed, they just collapse like babies.
21:48:21 <oerjan> i don't know what you're doing to them, LinearInterpol, but i don't think babies usually collapse.
21:48:44 <shachaf> oerjan: have you observed them
21:48:53 <oerjan> shachaf: it has happened.
21:49:47 <shachaf> babies look so much like humans
21:50:48 <shachaf> mauke: did you ever fix willkommen
21:52:06 <FireFly> It's almost as if they *were* humans
21:56:07 <oerjan> FireFly: i think they are like pokemons that can evolve into humans.
21:56:36 <HackEgo> Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen, besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
21:56:40 <shachaf> Presumably `run sed -i '...' wisdom/willkommen # or something
21:57:00 <oerjan> well there is only one comma is there.
21:57:03 <HackEgo> \ This is perl, v5.10.1 (*) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 61 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2009, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. \ \ Complete documenta
21:57:17 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/,//' wisdom/willkommen
21:57:26 <HackEgo> Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
21:57:44 <mauke> `run perl -e 'BEGIN{%::=()}'
21:58:08 <kmc> is that a monkey
21:58:23 <kmc> `run perl -e '420 fork everyday'
21:58:25 <HackEgo> Bareword found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "fork everyday" \ (Do you need to predeclare fork?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "420 fork" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
21:58:51 <mauke> `run perl -e '%::=()'
21:58:54 * oerjan reminds everyone of the `perl-e command
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21:59:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: perl-E: not found
22:00:06 <mauke> `run ping google.com
22:00:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ \ perl -e "$@"
22:00:43 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2d' bin/perl-e
22:00:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ perl -e "$@"
22:01:08 <mauke> `perl-e is this all one argument?
22:01:10 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, at EOF \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
22:01:35 <oerjan> mauke: that's the idea.
22:01:55 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:02:33 <HackEgo> gcc (Debian 4.4.5-8) 4.4.5 \ Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
22:03:04 <mauke> `fetch http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/ploki/ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2
22:03:08 <HackEgo> 2013-12-20 22:03:07 URL:http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/ploki/ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 [77308/77308] -> "ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2" [1]
22:03:19 <mauke> `cat ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2
22:03:20 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:03:20 <HackEgo> BZh91AY&SY;|Rz%&u'o0 \ a|=̍A{s.....>Hm`>:.c^=="Z.mZW{Cǣ(1..w>ӆUݾ<zR;. }z}z7v.}\Mm^kѹ|m{݃Jx}Qox$[vo.>J
22:04:02 <mauke> `tar xfj ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2
22:04:03 <HackEgo> tar: Old option `f' requires an argument. \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
22:04:17 <mauke> `tar xjf ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2
22:04:18 <HackEgo> tar: Old option `f' requires an argument. \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
22:04:34 <shachaf> `run tar xjf ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2
22:05:26 <shachaf> Does that work in some version of tar?
22:06:18 <mauke> `run cd ploki-0.6.5.1 && gcc -O2 -o ploki *.c -lm
22:06:19 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: cd: ploki-0.6.5.1: No such file or directory
22:06:46 <mauke> `run cd ploki && gcc -O2 -o ploki *.c -lm
22:07:37 <mauke> `run cp ploki/ploki bin/
22:07:38 <HackEgo> cp: cannot stat `ploki/ploki': No such file or directory
22:08:20 <shachaf> I think compilation failed.
22:09:55 <HackEgo> atechit.c \ atechit.depend \ atechit.h \ atechit.o \ Compile \ compile.c \ compile.depend \ compile.h \ compile.o \ config.h \ deparse.c \ deparse.depend \ deparse.h \ deparse.o \ doc \ examples \ expr.c \ expr.depend \ expr.h \ expr.o \ GNUmakefile \ hang.c \ hang.depend \ hang.h \ hang.o \ hash.c \ hash.depend \ hash.h \ hash.o \ IGNORE \ inc.c \
22:10:53 <HackEgo> version.c \ version.c.in \ version.depend \ version.h \ xmalloc.c \ xmalloc.depend \ xmalloc.h \ zz.c \ zz.depend \ zz.h
22:11:06 <oerjan> `run ls ploki | grep -v '\.c'
22:11:11 <HackEgo> atechit.depend \ atechit.h \ atechit.o \ Compile \ compile.depend \ compile.h \ compile.o \ config.h \ deparse.depend \ deparse.h \ deparse.o \ doc \ examples \ expr.depend \ expr.h \ expr.o \ GNUmakefile \ hang.depend \ hang.h \ hang.o \ hash.depend \ hash.h \ hash.o \ IGNORE \ inc.depend \ inc.h \ inc.o \ indent \ IO.depend \ IO.h \ IO.o \ kork.d
22:11:22 <oerjan> `run ls ploki | grep -v '\.[cho]'
22:11:24 <HackEgo> atechit.depend \ Compile \ compile.depend \ deparse.depend \ doc \ examples \ expr.depend \ GNUmakefile \ hang.depend \ hash.depend \ IGNORE \ inc.depend \ indent \ IO.depend \ kork.depend \ list.depend \ main.depend \ Makefile \ MakeSkel \ mars.depend \ match.depend \ op.depend \ opt.depend \ parse.depend \ ploki \ pp.depend \ random.depend \ READ
22:11:26 <mauke> `run cp ploki/ploki bin/
22:11:58 <mauke> `run ploki -MO=Deparse /dev/null
22:12:52 <oerjan> oh you ran make in privmsg
22:12:57 <mauke> `run echo $'"Hello, world!' | ploki
22:14:30 <oerjan> mauke: is that working?
22:14:44 <mauke> `run echo $'@REVERSE(\\ARG:3\'\\ARG:`\\ARG:2)_"' | ploki - 10 2 3.141593
22:15:18 <mauke> `run echo $'@REVERSE(\\ARG:3\'\\ARG:1`\\ARG:2)_"' | ploki - 10 2 3.141593
22:15:19 <HackEgo> 11.001001000011111101110000010110000101011110101111
22:15:46 <oerjan> `run cd ploki; make clean; cd ..; mv ploki src
22:15:50 <HackEgo> rm -f *.o ploki \ mv: cannot move `ploki' to `src/ploki': Directory not empty
22:16:35 <HackEgo> doc \ examples \ indent \ syntax \ t \ try
22:16:45 <HackEgo> atechit.c \ atechit.depend \ atechit.h \ Compile \ compile.c \ compile.depend \ compile.h \ config.h \ deparse.c \ deparse.depend \ deparse.h \ doc \ examples \ expr.c \ expr.depend \ expr.h \ GNUmakefile \ hang.c \ hang.depend \ hang.h \ hash.c \ hash.depend \ hash.h \ IGNORE \ inc.c \ inc.depend \ inc.h \ indent \ IO.c \ IO.depend \ IO.h \ kork.c
22:17:45 <oerjan> `run ls ploki | grep -v '\.([ch]|depend)'
22:17:48 <HackEgo> atechit.c \ atechit.depend \ atechit.h \ Compile \ compile.c \ compile.depend \ compile.h \ config.h \ deparse.c \ deparse.depend \ deparse.h \ doc \ examples \ expr.c \ expr.depend \ expr.h \ GNUmakefile \ hang.c \ hang.depend \ hang.h \ hash.c \ hash.depend \ hash.h \ IGNORE \ inc.c \ inc.depend \ inc.h \ indent \ IO.c \ IO.depend \ IO.h \ kork.c
22:18:08 <oerjan> `run ls ploki | egrep -v '\.([ch]|depend)'
22:18:10 <HackEgo> Compile \ doc \ examples \ GNUmakefile \ IGNORE \ indent \ Makefile \ MakeSkel \ README \ syntax \ t \ tags \ TODO \ try \ VERSION
22:18:46 <oerjan> `run rm -rf src/ploki; mv ploki src
22:19:59 <oerjan> i assume this is a newer version than what was there before.
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22:43:50 * oerjan has an evil idea about something google should do
22:44:04 <oerjan> decreasing pagerank based on outgoing links to spam sites
22:44:14 <oerjan> perhaps they already do.
22:45:12 <oerjan> because then, people might actually start cleaning up the spam in their blogs.
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23:05:32 <Bike> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/20/us-usa-security-rsa-idUSBRE9BJ1C220131220
23:07:31 <kmc> <kmc> the big news is that now everyone knows their price, and it was embarassingly low :) <kmc> i would have held out for like $200M and a pound of cocaine
23:08:13 <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.theawl.com/2013/12/the-new-spammer-panic
23:09:54 <Bike> how much does a pound of cocaine even go for
23:10:04 <kmc> i don't know Bike i don't buy or sell cocaine
23:10:11 <shachaf> what do you do with it then
23:10:13 <Bike> idea: update to Merchant of Venice
23:10:16 <kmc> la cocaína no es buena para su salud
23:10:18 <Bike> "flesh" is street talk
23:10:40 <kmc> is this like that "Romeo+Juliet" movie where they all had Sword brand guns
23:10:45 <Bike> basically yeah
23:11:06 <kmc> shachaf: give it out at halloween instead of candy?
23:13:57 <Bike> bob for cocaine
23:14:08 <Bike> is cocaine soluble? i know so little about cocaine, i'm realizing
23:15:57 <Bike> i have all of avenged sevenfold's albums
23:17:40 <douglass_> Wikipedia tells me that the solubility of cocaine hydrochloride in water is 1800-2500 mg/ml at 20 degrees C.
23:18:33 <Bike> "like sugar water"
23:18:47 <douglass_> The non-salt base form is not soluble in water.
23:19:02 <Bike> so, what, gotta dunk it in hcl first?
23:22:29 <zzo38> ifMUD now is stopped working again; probably because I accidentally made up a infinite loop.
23:23:11 <Bike> this prbably wouldn't get you high, huh. well, i guess you win some you lose some
23:25:13 <kmc> that's p. soluble
23:25:23 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, wait, that article isn't actually what you said
23:25:44 <shachaf> oerjan: but you might get some sort of schadenfreude out of it anyway
23:28:10 <oerjan> although that almost looks like an argument _not_ to remove spam comments.
23:29:05 <shachaf> well, the important bit is presumably preventing them from even being created in the future
23:29:56 <shachaf> also maybe i should be careful talking about this sort of thing
23:30:07 <shachaf> disclaimer, i know nothing about any of this
23:30:12 <nooodl> "[...] after which catamorphisms are sometimes referred to as <i>bananas</i>, as mentioned in Meijer 1991." good
23:30:21 <nooodl> imo all of category theory is <i>bananas</i>
23:30:55 <Bike> that's barbed wire right
23:34:38 <oerjan> shachaf: hm actually it is slightly about what i said, further in
23:36:17 <oerjan> is the crash still ongoing
23:36:49 <kmc> yeah people are rushing to convert their savings to dogecoin
23:37:24 <Bike> http://neurotree.org/neurotree/clusters.php oh good, i found a map like the Erdős ones
23:37:29 <Bike> how wonderfully incomprehensible
23:37:47 <Bike> "change: +12870.94%"
23:37:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "the first currency to be based upon an Internet meme" -- wp
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23:38:33 <oerjan> looks like it's up from 2.5 days ago
23:38:34 <nooodl> i bet bitcoin itself is based on a bunch of things you could call "internet" "memes" if you were being really pedantic about it
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23:39:15 <Bike> i bet i could call you a nerd, nerd
23:39:23 <oerjan> although falling again today
23:39:28 <shachaf> Bike: why do you do that thing
23:40:37 <kmc> should i buy some bitcoins
23:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> wait in the last three days its value has varied threefold
23:41:25 <Bike> aren't they like five hundred a pop
23:42:12 <kmc> fine "should i buy part of a bitcoin"
23:43:00 <kmc> one day a bitcoin will be worth more than a share of BRK.A
23:43:09 <Bike> bitcoins are a knife aimed at the heart of america, or rather aimed at some of the arteries that are actually kind of nice
23:43:20 <Bike> like that one in the ankle
23:43:53 <Sgeo> I seem to have decided that it would be worthwhile to play VIM Adventures
23:43:59 <Sgeo> Quassel is being dump
23:44:06 <Bike> you're far beyond he- oh.
23:44:07 <kmc> "Pete: For this style of attack though Red would have advocated Ferlinghetti's Axis which - / Todd: Yeah, yeah. Maximizes damage to the vein. You think I don't know this stuff?"
23:44:15 <Sgeo> Maybe vim isn't a good idea for me, I kind of type in an esoteric way
23:44:33 <shachaf> #esoteric should have a zillion subchannels
23:44:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd like to hear more about peercoin though, it sounds reasonably sane
23:46:24 <Bike> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01142005 yeah
23:46:27 <kmc> amused that every cryptocurrency on wikipedia has a link to "Anarchism portal" at the bottom
23:47:07 <Bike> because anachists are alllll about currency
23:54:02 <copumpkin> shachaf: yeah, I'm a huge dogecoin tycoon
23:54:17 <kmc> when are you launching pumpkincoin?
23:54:37 <kmc> or copumpkinin?
23:54:40 <zzo38> What should be the length of a .MOD instrument if I want it to be tuned correctly?
23:54:51 <kmc> zzo38: 2.5 meters
23:55:28 <zzo38> kmc: No, I mean in bytes
23:55:30 <Bike> i thought it was uninteresting
23:55:46 <kmc> it's a scrypt-based coin with a faster blockrate than litecoin
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23:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> there are people in /r/bitcoin who seriously think bitcoin was bringing freedom to china
23:57:15 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: "there are people in /r/bitcoin who seriously think??"
23:57:27 <Bike> so i found out it's kind of hard to research people without wikipedia articles (so that i can write a wikipedia article)
23:57:38 <Bike> comparatively, at least. google makes everything seem so easy
23:58:42 <Bike> i think i'll just completely make up a year, put citation needed on it, and call it good
23:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i also love how such people kind of brush off the price fluctuations as being the fault of speculators as if that isn't a huge problem in and of itself
23:59:14 <kmc> speculators gonna speculate
23:59:40 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: I wonder if those people realize that USD/EUR also has speculators
23:59:54 <Bike> capitalism does have a habit of messing with theories
00:00:19 <kmc> INVISIBLE HAND WITH RAISED MIDDLE FINGER
00:03:01 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: do you think there's a reason China is cracking down on Bitcoin, other than to preserve capital controls?
00:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> why would i know! capital controls seems like an adequate enough reason though
00:04:07 <kmc> well then I think it's fair to say they are bringing a certain narrow kind of "freedom" to china
00:04:22 <kmc> not political freedom certainly
00:05:09 <Bike> wouldn't it be neat if the government came out with Bitcoin with Chinese Characteristics
00:05:48 <Bike> which is yuan with pictures of circuit boards taped to them
00:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> http://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1t5fo1/to_the_omg_bitcoin_is_dead_people_jesus_christ/ce4uwjh
00:07:19 <kmc> "This collaboration between the crowdsourcing website Quirky and industrial giant GE (GE, Fortune 500) wirelessly connects to your mobile device to track the number of eggs you have and tell you when they're going bad." $70
00:08:17 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: lol
00:08:32 <Bike> kmc: is that a cite of fortune 500 or, what's going on there
00:09:16 <kmc> it's a link to stock shit
00:09:51 <Bike> oh. i was wondering if they expected name recognition for Quirky but not GE, or what
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00:17:36 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Dogecoinwallet.jpg/800px-Dogecoinwallet.jpg oh, i see.
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02:10:17 <myname> Bike: wow, much money, such coin
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02:14:23 <shachaf> the answer is http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1tb9qa/haskell_for_all_lift_error_handling_with_lenslike/ce6ap5x
02:15:23 <Bike> is this pro haskell? that's beaut
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03:24:17 <quintopia> well i managed to buy 75 bitcents after considerable amounts of banging my head against a technological wall
03:24:45 <quintopia> can you believe the only mobile browser that coinbase works in is opera mini?
03:25:24 <Bike> wouldn't that cost like four hundred dollars
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03:27:09 <quintopia> i'm hoping i can start using btc the way i usually use paypal. the idea of taking payments for things in btc appeals to me somehow.
03:28:22 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: the market's been somewhat stable for at least a day now.
03:28:55 <quintopia> sure it's a gamble, but it's better than the lottery
03:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oh well in that case it's safe to start pouring cash into it!
03:29:23 <Bike> robbing an IKEA also has better chances of success than the lottery
03:29:52 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: eh it's less than a week of work and i don't have many expenses right now. i'm in a position to gamble.
03:29:58 <kmc> "stable for a day"
03:30:21 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: that's fairly stable for btc :)
03:30:34 <Bike> that's the joke
03:30:47 <quintopia> but no it hasn't been fluctuating that much
03:31:40 <quintopia> you think you can get a variance from extrema?
03:31:46 <Phantom_Hoover> it's less than twenty but i am a) eyeballing the figures and b) not spending cash based on them
03:32:18 <quintopia> it's been between 680 and 720 for 90% of the day
03:32:19 <Bike> "The ICE dollar index DXY -0.12% , a measure of the U.S. unit against six other currencies, fell to 80.824 from 80.986 late Thursday, for a weekly loss of 0.6%."
03:32:22 <Bike> this got into the news
03:33:23 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: do what you want. i don't gamble in casinos, but i could. btc gambling seemed like it'd be more fun :)
03:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, it was stable enough on december 15; there was a crash on december 18
03:33:57 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: that crash predicated my purchase.
03:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> bloody hell, i can see why they call it the dunning-krugerrand
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03:34:48 <quintopia> it looked like the china-ban-related crashing was done. so i bought.
03:36:46 <quintopia> hi bike. do you think i'm crazy or do you think coinbase is crazy for working on so few browsers?
03:37:19 <Bike> aiming for wider support than opera seems sensible enough
03:39:42 <quintopia> even in opera it only works jerkily and painfully
03:40:04 <quintopia> no idea how a company could fail so hard
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04:29:09 <zzo38> Do you know if there are format for instrument files to use with .MOD that have a transpose value built-in too?
04:53:46 <kmc> wish there were enough of a bitcoin options market to compute implied volatility
04:53:55 <kmc> that'd be neat
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04:56:36 <kmc> fungot: sing me a song
04:56:36 <fungot> kmc: if that is deserved though). i don't care about its value; i care about anything
04:56:47 <kmc> fungot: you would do anything for love but you won't do that?
04:56:48 <fungot> kmc: eval ( begin ( task1) ( task2))) is ( 0 3) 1
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05:32:04 <zzo38> In this rotating temple (which, for some reason, is built right on top of an apartment???), one of the rooms contains a statue, having a description of two sentences. The first one was there before, and the second one I added today. Is it better now? "This is a large statue of something having a lot of eyes, mouths, tentacles, hands, claws, teeth, and stuff that nobody understands, all in the sideways and wrong order. Strangely enough, it appears
05:32:10 <zzo38> Did this message get cut off?
05:32:22 <zzo38> Is the second sentence better than the first one?
05:32:23 <Bike> strangely enough, it appears
05:32:33 <zzo38> Strangely enough, it appears that even being turned 360 degrees, it is different than it was before; 720 degrees makes it the same, though."
05:33:34 <zzo38> No, it is for ifMUD.
05:33:52 <zzo38> Although it could be used in D&D campaign too, perhaps.
05:34:08 <quintopia> oh a mud. that was going to be my second guess
05:34:59 <zzo38> But is it better now like this?
05:37:08 <quintopia> even though the added sentence is pretty much nonsense
05:38:26 <quintopia> would it be equivalent to say "after rotating one full turn, it does not appear the same as before, but after two full turns, it does"?
05:38:49 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, that is equivalent, it is what I meant.
05:39:50 <quintopia> so the thing changes as you rotate it. neat.
05:40:00 <quintopia> maybe i could build a statue like that
05:59:19 <kmc> every time you read a LWN article and the first comment is spender railing about how everyone is an idiot, take a shot
06:15:30 <kmc> http://lwn.net/
06:28:03 <Sgeo> http://lwn.net/Articles/576785/
06:29:14 <kmc> yeah i was reminded of this game by http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/577432/4c0c4ca28678daa8/
06:39:59 <Sgeo> "It is already trivially circumvented via a single function usable by any other exploit, present in enlightenment:"
06:40:02 <Sgeo> What's that about?
06:41:02 <Sgeo> "Spender's code shows that it's actually easy to look for signs of fixes in the kernel image before trying any exploit, thus defeating the detection scheme. "
06:43:35 <kmc> "enlightenment" is his framework for writing exploits
06:44:00 <Bike> here i was thinking it was the window manager (not sarcasm)
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07:22:15 <kmc> want to buy hugcoins
07:22:25 <kmc> they're based on proof-of-hug
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08:52:35 <fizzie> Do you have to prove that the hug was consensual?
09:06:41 <ion> trypꙮphobia
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09:11:17 <Slereah_> Is logical implication ever used in programming?
09:11:32 <Slereah_> It seems to always be the symmetric logical operators that get in
09:14:09 <Slereah_> Prolog does apparently, which makes sense
09:14:19 <ion> slereah: → in many type systems is isomorphic to logical implication.
09:14:48 <ion> Namely, in all type systems that are isomorphic to constructive logic
09:15:36 <FreeFull> I think Idris, Coq and Agda might have type systems like that
09:17:50 <ion> -> in Haskell is isomorphic to logical implication.
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09:42:44 <FreeFull> I think Haskell's type system isn't fully turing complete without extensions
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10:50:14 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> so the thing changes as you rotate it. neat. <-- maybe zzo38 was inspired by fermion physics.
10:53:24 <FreeFull> I think electrons are like that
10:56:48 <oerjan> yes, electrons are fermions.
10:56:59 <oerjan> also protons and neutrons.
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13:32:21 <fizzie> "Woodcutter Simulator 2013 allows the player to control and operate an entire lumber mill. From clearing woods to the evacuation of the logs, the player has to undertake all arising tasks to complete numerous missions – from cutting trees for demanding customers to producing woodchips for heating purposes."
13:32:29 <fizzie> The whole sim game genre is kinda weird.
13:33:01 <fizzie> "Features: Work with the chainsaw in 1st-person-view" well I guess that sounds quite gamey.
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14:02:51 <quintopia> fizzie: it's like gears of war, but the enemies are a little bit more...wooden
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17:14:26 <kmc> fizzie: woodchips for heating purposes but not for mushroom-growing purposes?
17:14:34 <kmc> fungot: do you grow on woodchips?
17:14:34 <fungot> kmc: 34580840+0 records out of vectors, i guess that
17:15:59 <olsner> fungot: do you grow mushrooms?
17:15:59 <fungot> olsner: in the monad io. its type is provable in classical first order logic theory evaluator. and pronounce it " faulty".
17:18:43 <olsner> some neighbor is sawing or grinding something... loudly :(
17:19:35 <ais523> that used to happen to me a lot a while back, but it stopped
17:19:42 <ais523> presumably they finished whatever it was they were building
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17:57:30 <kmc> maybe they gave up and threw it into the ocean
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18:26:16 <Bike> are wood stoves bad
18:27:03 <fizzie> I hear you can buy wood stoves for poor people.
18:27:27 <fizzie> fungot: How do you grow mushrooms in the IO monad?
18:27:28 <fungot> fizzie: if b clones the vlr. its at that point vatican was the ruling power, and it looks good
18:27:42 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, it sounds p. difficult.
18:27:42 <fungot> fizzie: good then. as kate refuses to *edit* binary files just fine now with readelf. ( i was designing it in my face when a calendar item is due, other than sharing the monitor with a box, and does the winner get a cut. unless you stole it.
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18:34:37 <quintopia> olsner: do you know anything about growing mushrooms in the monad io? thxplz
18:34:59 <quintopia> i'm particularly interested in 1up mushrooms
18:35:08 <olsner> quintopia: I defer to fungot, the resident expert on IO-monadic mushroom growing
18:35:08 <fungot> olsner: hi, seems you too are taking fnord to a fnord interrupt things, to go with
18:35:17 <kmc> well mushroom growing is all about purity, avoiding contamination
18:35:40 <quintopia> kmc: i'm okay with unsafeMushrooms
18:36:29 <kmc> im not :'(
18:36:40 <kmc> anyway the usual result is that you get no mushrooms at all, only mold and bacteria
18:37:29 <quintopia> kmc: can i grow Maybe 1up mushrooms?
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18:37:49 <kmc> a 1up mushroom is like a green A. muscaria
18:38:10 <kmc> but there's no actual mushroom that looks like that
18:38:14 <quintopia> but amanita don't let you cheat death afaik
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18:38:20 <kmc> quite the opposite
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18:38:34 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_phalloides is kinda green and it's one of the most poisonous mushrooms there is
18:39:10 <quintopia> maybe if i i grew them with the monad io they would be life-giving rather than -taking
18:39:30 <kmc> i think you might need a comonad for that
18:47:16 <quintopia> someone just exploded a glass in this cafe
18:47:25 <quintopia> like i got hit in the face by flying glass
18:48:07 <kmc> are you okay?
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18:49:03 <kmc> that sounds like a delicious chocolate bar
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19:05:51 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/YZVtLW3.jpg i love rich people
19:09:23 <kmc> thanks we love you too Bike
19:09:39 <Bike> (this is another "proposal" by some VC nerd)
19:09:50 <kmc> somebody pointed out that this would be a significant net increase in Republican senate seats
19:10:12 <kmc> unclear if the proposers want that or just don't realize it
19:10:27 <kmc> Bike: did you see http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/the_next_silicon_valley/2013/12/silicon_valley_s_invasion_of_san_francisco_not_quite_the_ayn_rand_nightmare.html
19:11:48 <Bike> "many of them don’t know who Cesar Chavez was" D:
19:12:28 <kmc> "I am the spirit of César Chávez." "Then why do you look like César Romero?" "Because you don't know what César Chávez looks like."
19:12:58 <Bike> clearly we need a new film like American Psycho
19:13:09 <Bike> that fucking business card scene man, i crack up every time
19:13:31 <Bike> i guess the modern version would be talking about how minimalist your website's design is
19:14:12 <kmc> i really should watch that movie
19:17:10 <Bike> good article though
19:18:51 <olsner> how does cesar chavez relate to silicon valley?
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19:23:35 <kmc> well that paragraph is talking about techies moving into the Mission and being ignorant of the cultural history
19:28:53 * kmc lives 1 block from Cesar Chavez St.
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19:31:29 <Bike> i was going to say all the streets are named after him but i forgot if that was tre :V
19:35:33 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_named_after_Cesar_Chavez#Major_streets
19:38:30 <Bike> wow, like twenty schools just in cali
19:42:32 <kmc> meanwhile in florida http://newsone.com/2814127/florida-school-named-after-kkk-grand-wizard-gets-new-name/
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19:44:33 <mauke> preflex: remember <onepoii> shit perl is pretty awesome you can almost right as you speek
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20:09:44 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1tcpb4/rsa_took_10m_from_nsa_to_make_backdoored_dual_ec/
20:10:01 <Sgeo_> I thought it's been 'allegedly' backdoored, that the algorithm hasn't been proven to be backdoored?
20:10:25 <kmc> i think that's right
20:10:30 <ais523> Sgeo_: basically it has some constants in it that nobody knows where they come from
20:10:55 <kmc> well more than that, researchers have demonstrated how those constants could have been chosen to include a backdoor
20:10:58 <Sgeo_> Yeah yeah, and it's been proven that they could have been chosen to serve as a public key
20:11:01 <ais523> if the constants were constructed using a specific algorithm, it would generate a key at the same time that would backdoor the algorithm
20:11:02 <elliott> it was proved to be "backdoored" whether intentionally or not in 2006
20:11:05 <kmc> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/09/the-many-flaws-of-dualecdrbg.html
20:11:10 <elliott> and then RSA used it for no good reason whatsoever a few years later
20:11:10 <ais523> or they might just be random, in which case no backdoor exits
20:11:17 <kmc> and yeah this suspicion predates the snowden leaks by years
20:11:18 <Sgeo_> But hasn't been proven that this is actually the case
20:11:19 <elliott> and then leaked NSA documents said they had compromised encryption standards
20:11:23 <kmc> but -- yeah
20:11:25 <elliott> and then it's news that the NSA paid RSA $10M
20:11:45 <elliott> this might be a tiny little hint that dual Dual_EC_DRBG is backdoored <_<
20:11:59 <kmc> also that Dual_EC_DRBG is just shitty and so there's no reason to use it if the govt isn't paying you to
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20:16:00 <Bike> and this is crypto, we should all know that "well maybe nobody knows the backdoor" is security through obscurity.
20:17:41 <Bike> and if you have some suspicion that a company did something shitty and they deny it, you should probably just assume that they're lying to your face because they are full of shit and i hate everybody.
20:18:25 <kmc> hoover's razor
20:19:48 <Sgeo_> Oh, apparently the backdoor doesn't work if you have 31 bytes or less?
20:20:32 <ais523> being able to predict an RNG output after just 31 bytes is a pretty strong backdoor
20:20:41 <Bike> it's important that we microanalyze this to defend the NSA
20:21:39 <shachaf> what if it only works when you have exactly 32 bytes, no more and no fewer
20:22:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike is right, there can be no nuance in this matter whatsoever
20:23:12 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover is right, kill all humans
20:24:51 <Bike> it's not a matter of nuance, it's a matter of the NSA being known to have crippled its own government's security for years with nobody being able to know about it, so why bother counting fucking bytes at this point
20:25:48 <Bike> remember how RSA said dual_ec_drbg's slowness was good because it made attacks slower. that was funny
20:26:34 <Bike> also yes, kill all humans, bike superiority
20:27:27 <ais523> Bike: some crypto algorithms are intentionally designed to be slow, e.g. password hashing functions
20:27:42 <ais523> but they tend to have scalable slowness for that purpose
20:28:23 <mauke> http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/2013-September/005341.html
20:30:10 <Bike> should have put more pounds of coke in there
20:31:23 <kmc> "Most developers would probably use the faster symmetric alternatives, but perhaps a small number would prefer the added confidence of a provably-secure construction. Unfortunately, here is where NIST ran into their first problem with Dual_EC. Flaw #1: Dual-EC has no security proof."
20:31:39 <kmc> "Let me spell this out as clearly as I can. In the course of proposing this complex and slow new PRG where the only damn reason you'd ever use the thing is for its security reduction, NIST forgot to provide one. This is like selling someone a Mercedes and forgetting to attach the hood ornament."
20:33:12 <Bike> apparently i don't know enough about cars to get the simile except from context
20:34:01 <tertu> Mercedes are bling-cars
20:34:21 <tertu> sure you can drive them but that's not why you buy them
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22:25:14 <kmc> "Former South Sudan Vice-President Riek Machar tells the BBC that rebel forces are under his control and have taken the key oil-producing Unity state."
22:25:17 <kmc> great name
22:29:32 <kmc> http://www.kufic.info/architecture/architecture.htm hell yes
22:30:48 <Bike> how is this ordered, uzbekistan is before turkmenistan
22:31:19 <kmc> descending sort by number of uzbeks
22:31:44 <Bike> oh, christ, look at all these books. bad site, i have a budget
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23:17:45 <zzo38> Are there square currency units used for any purpose?
23:18:08 <kmc> like coins but square?
23:18:15 <Bike> do you mean like square meters
23:20:33 <zzo38> Yes, like square meters and stuff like that
23:20:56 <Taneb> Let $ be the symbol for the currency unit. $ is money. $/$ (unitless) is a simple interest rate. $/$s (equivalent to hertz!?) is a compound interest rate, I think
23:20:57 <Bike> they are used for bounties in Trigun.
23:21:37 <kmc> er shouldn't an interest rate be in terms of time
23:21:45 <kmc> why would that change with compounding
23:21:50 <kmc> zzo38: the units on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_(finance) might get pretty weird
23:21:55 <zzo38> Bike: How does that work?
23:22:02 <Bike> sixty billion double dollars.
23:22:22 <Taneb> kmc, I may have forgotten quite what simple interest is
23:22:51 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Let $ be the symbol for the currency unit. $ is money. $/$ (unitless) is a simple interest rate. $/$s (equivalent to hertz!?) is a compound interest rate, I think
23:23:05 <Bike> "famous for Confusion of Confusions, a book about stock markets" ha
23:23:48 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, whatever would describe a time machine accelerating is equivalent to hertz, too
23:28:35 <Taneb> Odd thing about be #642: I am more conservative with money when I expect an immediate reward to my purchase
23:28:50 <kmc> `quote 642
23:28:55 <HackEgo> 642) <oerjan> well, i have to assume if i'm going to make any asses
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23:31:32 <zzo38> I still do not understand, how you mean using for bounties, and that stuff?
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00:17:04 <zzo38> I had some dream (I think just yesterday/today) and I should put it into the computer today. First I am reading something else but then I will do, please.
00:25:00 <nooodl> Bike: always be polite
00:26:29 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/dollar-tree-ceo-officially-unveils-longrumored-foi,32684/ do you get it
00:40:18 <zzo38> I didn't know you can measure compound interest in hertz. But now I suppose I can understand it.
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00:59:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Finally, a use for picohertz?
01:05:25 <coppro> **** quantum computing
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01:13:53 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I suppose that would be a use for it, then
01:14:08 <Taneb> Hmm, can you represent compound interest as hertz?
01:14:13 <Taneb> I think you would run into issues
01:14:47 <Taneb> Because 1% every one unit of time is not the same as 10% every ten units of time is not the same as 100% every hundred units of time
01:23:57 <Taneb> I think exponentials may have to be involved somewhere, which, for a unit, is most odd
01:27:56 <Taneb> I think it's log $ / s
01:29:01 <shachaf> logarithm-dollars per second?
01:29:17 <shachaf> anyway coexponentials are left adjoint to coproducts or something??
01:29:21 <Taneb> That is the unit of compound interest
01:31:19 <Taneb> I think € is closer to an SI currency
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01:34:20 <Bike> the unit euro is stored in a french vault
01:35:30 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes I am actually also unsure, for the same reasons as you, too
01:36:17 <Jafet> Surely the SI euro should be standardized as a constant of nature, such as the daily expenditure of a physics grad student
01:37:22 <pikhq> Or perhaps the marginal cost of a strange quark.
01:37:36 <Bike> just pin it to the big mac and call it good
01:38:31 <pikhq> Now the real question is, what's the planck unit of money?
01:39:04 <Bike> i think the smallest seriously used unit of money i've seen was the average cost of a semiconductor
01:39:13 <shachaf> oerjan: how come https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_presentation and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finitely_presented don't redirect to the same page
01:39:32 <pikhq> Yeah, but that's not Planck units. :)
01:39:52 <shachaf> oerjan: imo the former is v. obviously biased and should probably be more like the latter
01:42:36 <Taneb> Bike, what is the average price of a semiconductor?
01:43:46 <Bike> a trillionth of a cent, or something like that
01:44:59 <shachaf> Bike: plz answer in dogecoins thx
01:46:05 <Taneb> Bike, another channel is asking what do you mean by "a" semiconductor
01:46:26 <pikhq> I'd guess "a transistor".
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01:46:49 <shachaf> Taneb: imo they can ask Bike directly if they care so much
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01:53:00 <Bike> i meant a transistor, yes
01:53:03 <Bike> words are hard
01:54:02 <Bike> and 'semiconductor' sounds cooler than 'transitor' even though just a stupid lump of silicon ore is semiconductive
01:54:51 <Taneb> Isn't... silicon ore most rocks?
01:55:45 <Taneb> If time is money, then compound interest is log s/s
01:56:34 <Taneb> So compound interest is the logarithm of time to the timeth root
01:56:54 <Bike> the way they get wafers is really cool https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czochralski_process
01:57:22 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, Hexham's in sandstone country
01:57:48 <pikhq> If time is money, then BTC provides a means of converting electricity into time.
01:58:22 <Phantom__Hoover> you can also convert electricity to money by, uh... selling it to people
01:59:20 <pikhq> Or by electrolisis of, uh... solutions containing gold?
01:59:42 <Taneb> pikhq, solutions containing €
02:02:17 <Bike> kind of want to make a fully mechanical bitcoin miner now
02:03:02 <Taneb> Anyway, I ought to sleep
02:03:21 <Phantom__Hoover> what if our universe is just the proof-of-work for someone's cryptocurrency
02:04:24 <Bike> then i shall make fun of god on internet forums.
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02:25:23 <zzo38> There is various format tags for .MOD format; there is "M.K." which does not stand for Mahoney & Kaktus, but one tag used only once is "M&K!"; does that one stand for Mahoney & Kaktus, maybe?
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02:57:14 * Sgeo_ vageuly plans on buying some bitcoins
03:01:05 <Sgeo_> Worst that could happen is I lose some money, right?
03:01:34 <Bike> consider how many purchases you could justify with that.
03:01:42 <Bike> particularly, any purchase
03:01:45 <Phantom__Hoover> look if you want to speculate you are far better off learning about investment in general rather than following this one specific fad
03:02:27 <Sgeo_> I have noticed myself buying stuff more often when I'd usually try to make do with free alternatives
03:02:44 <zzo38> All the documentation for .MOD format seems pretty bad. Some documents say the Fxx effect sets the speed for the next line, although OpenMPT affects it on the current line.
03:03:08 <Sgeo_> don't different players render .mods differnetly sometimes?
03:03:22 <doesthiswork> I think Phantom__Hoover wants some bitcoins for christmas
03:03:51 <Phantom__Hoover> i think i even had a wallet, i wonder if it has anything in it
03:05:31 <zzo38> Sgeo_: That may be true in some cases (as far as I know, most players don't emulate the Amiga hardware filter)
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03:26:34 <zzo38> OK, I wrote about the dreams now
03:26:50 <zzo38> Tell me if you have anything in your dream to add to the report, too.
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04:33:17 <quintopia> LinearInterpol: use the welcome msg
04:33:22 <Sgeo_> `welcome Edward___
04:33:24 <Edward___> Great, I have a few questions, could I ask you?
04:33:25 <HackEgo> Edward___: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:33:48 <Sgeo_> (offtopic, but most messages here are off-topic) http://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/12/nyregion/slogan-causes-pencil-recall.html
04:34:16 <Edward___> Learned brainfuck about a year ago
04:34:28 <Edward___> And now I'm learning C, in order to work on my eventual undergraduate thesis
04:34:41 <Edward___> Which involves creating a language.
04:35:07 <Edward___> So for a potential creator of a language... What's some broad advice you can give me?
04:35:15 <ion> linearinterpol: Was that sarcasm? :-P
04:35:20 <Bike> don't fuck it up
04:35:43 <Edward___> Thanks! I consider myself conversational with Python, and fluent in Java ;)
04:35:45 <quintopia> Edward___: have you taken a class in programming language design?
04:35:59 <Bike> but the cool thing about undergraduate theses is that nobody will care after you're done, so don't sweat it
04:36:17 <Edward___> Well, my goal is to hope somebody cares, I want my PhD :)
04:36:18 <LinearInterpol> Edward___: the key to designing a language is consistency. whatever symantics or syntax you give it, make sure it adheres to a strict set of guidelines.
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04:36:45 <Bike> trust me, the only master's thesis anyone's cared about in the last two hundred years is shannon's, and you ain't him
04:36:51 <quintopia> Edward___: that would probably help. it forces you to become familiar with all the various paradigms, and the goals that are typically aimed at by language designers
04:37:04 <Bike> claude shannon, look 'im up, cool guy
04:37:33 <Bike> basically what i'm saying is, do take it seriously since presumably this has consequences, but don't worry too much about designing something that has to last
04:37:34 <Edward___> Also, I've learned a bit about paradigms.
04:37:52 <Edward___> Yeah, I got what you were saying :)
04:38:00 <quintopia> Edward___: how many paradigms have you written working code in?
04:38:06 <Edward___> Thanks for the advice nonetheless.
04:39:09 <Edward___> Yeah, 3 mains and I looked at automata based
04:39:12 <Bike> also, it's pretty easy to learn programming languages since you already know some. learn some that are far from what you know, like haskell or scheme (SICP is free and semi-about language interpreters)
04:39:20 <Edward___> since I'll be in the "Theoretical" focus for my major
04:39:29 <quintopia> LinearInterpol: the three main being imperative, functional, logical?
04:39:40 <Edward___> Well shit, I find C completely different from Java and Python hahaha
04:39:52 <LinearInterpol> Edward___: get used to dealing with the "procedural" paradigm.
04:40:00 <Bike> but there are other completely different ones, see. lots of directions.
04:40:02 <Edward___> And yeah, imperative, functional, logical, and automata.
04:40:22 <Edward___> I like manually managing memory, because if I were to create a really indepth language, I should be good at that, yeah?
04:40:28 <Bike> if you know automata personally i think writing a quick NFA regex engine is a nice way to learn something
04:40:47 <Edward___> I like me too, and I like your help.
04:40:47 <LinearInterpol> We should hang out and discuss memory management schemes.
04:40:50 <Bike> Edward___: i'd say it depends on what you're doing...
04:41:01 <quintopia> i like better languages which don't require such memory management :D
04:41:03 <Edward___> Well the thing is, I wouldn't have much to say about memory management schemes...
04:41:08 <ion> shachaf: “trypꙮphobia”. hth
04:41:28 <LinearInterpol> last one I gave was non-determinism on deterministic platforms.
04:41:29 <Bike> memory management is hard, but cool. obviously pretty hard to do well, what else is new
04:42:07 <Edward___> quintopia: I'd love to. I'd like to take care of memory management in my language (myself as opposed to letting another language do it) so that the user doesn't have to
04:42:36 <ion> shachaf: Do a google image search (or just a google non-image search if you’re squeamish).
04:42:41 <Bike> you could use a language that has automatic memory management to implement your language and then neither of you would have to care.
04:42:59 <Bike> i mean, just saying it's an option.
04:43:02 <Edward___> It's not caring, it's perfectionism haha :)
04:43:03 <LinearInterpol> write a language that has context-independent instructions like brainfuck does.
04:43:13 <Edward___> I'd like to show that I can do it, for the purpose of getting attention ;)
04:43:27 <Edward___> How would I begin writing said language?
04:43:49 <Bike> Edward___: take a look at http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/
04:43:53 <LinearInterpol> right now probably floating around in your head you have tons of ideas.
04:44:01 <LinearInterpol> yet always keep in mind: everything reduces to symbols.
04:44:13 <Bike> does 4 reduce to a symbol
04:44:39 <Bike> i never seen it sym
04:44:45 <quintopia> Edward___: here's some ideas you should be familiar with and consider: pure object orientation (smalltalk), contracts (eiffel), orthogonality (algol), minimizing initial learning curve (PHP and others), garbage collection algorithms (mark-and-sweep in particular), pure recursion/tail recursion (lambda calculus, combinator languages)
04:45:24 <Edward___> I've read about garbage collection algorithms, so I'm familiar with a small aspect
04:45:34 <LinearInterpol> effectively the simplest "language" is an alphabet with a bunch of rules applied to it.
04:45:40 <Edward___> but, I've also learned lambda calculus and some other related theory
04:45:44 <Bike> here is a book on garbage collection http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/rej/gc.html#Book
04:45:53 <Edward___> I mentioned automata earlier for the following reason...
04:46:22 <Edward___> Since I am in that "theoretical" subfocus, I'll be doing a lot of boolean algebra, discrete math, numerical analysis, etc...
04:46:35 <Edward___> and automata are a big working point. Anyway...
04:46:40 <quintopia> tcs is great. hope you can hack it better than me.
04:47:15 <Edward___> but I've learned a lot about language design just from little side-notes in books about the theoretical stuff.
04:47:23 <quintopia> Edward___: a small word of advice. if you want a phd in tcs, don't just be satisfied with discrete math. take every math class you can fit into your schedule, whether it seems useful or not.
04:47:39 <Edward___> I am, I will be taking calc 3 next semester.
04:47:43 <Bike> so is your undergraduate thesis have some kind of criteria to it or is it just "show me a language implementation fucker"
04:47:57 <Edward___> Well that's the thing, I'm actually working ahead.
04:48:05 <LinearInterpol> Bike: I'd like to think that the criteria was worded exactly like that.
04:48:18 <Edward___> But, I want to have an idea, and honestly, I'd just like to learn.
04:48:38 <Edward___> Quintopia: did you get a phd in tcs?
04:48:53 <quintopia> Edward___: no i couldn't hack it. quit with a masters
04:49:14 <Bike> calc three is vectors right
04:49:22 <Bike> fuckin america
04:49:32 <Bike> that has like nothing to do with computer science but it rules
04:49:39 <quintopia> calc three for cs was fun. but i hear actual calc 3 was very different
04:49:53 <Edward___> my school doesn't have a calc 3 for cs...
04:50:01 <quintopia> LinearInterpol: but you have no direction. heisenberg you know
04:50:10 <Bike> calc 3 for CS means calc 3 dumbed down, fuck that
04:50:20 <Bike> it's like those 'math for biologists' courses that are uniformly shitty
04:50:29 <Bike> well, probably.
04:50:31 <quintopia> Bike: not dumbed at all. just different focus.
04:50:44 <Bike> LinearInterpol: sometimes.
04:50:53 <Edward___> Just finished my first semester of bio...bio 2107
04:50:55 <Bike> the joke of course is that biologists are scared of math
04:51:15 <Edward___> Owen White: "Math is to physics as CS is to biology."
04:51:17 <Bike> nowadays everybody has to know python to treat data or w/e
04:51:23 <Bike> haha what the fuck?
04:51:34 <Bike> that's dumb as shit, i love it
04:52:38 <Edward___> I'll save that to watch once I log off :)
04:52:40 <Bike> i can't even imagine what thought process could lead to that quote, i love it
04:52:53 <Bike> "well it's about like, agents"
04:53:05 <quintopia> computational biology being somehow akin to mathematical physics
04:53:09 <LinearInterpol> "AGENT SYSTEMS! BUZZWORD! that applies to biology, right?"
04:53:26 <Edward___> Well, physics is naturally dependent on math, yeah?
04:53:38 <Edward___> And advancements in biology have most recently come from computers
04:53:46 <LinearInterpol> physics is naturally dependent on the entire field of formal science.
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04:53:56 <Bike> yeah, but advancements in blender manufacturing have most recently come from computers.
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04:54:31 <Edward___> Hey, it was at the beginning of a book on Bioinformatics (maybe an essay) written by the guy who basically founded the field.
04:55:44 <Bike> anyway, when people say physics is based on math they're not just saying math helps physicists, they're saying it's a conceptual underpinning.
04:55:50 <Bike> which, well, really isn't true of biology at all.
04:55:53 <quintopia> LinearInterpol: do it like dumdledore
04:56:00 <LinearInterpol> CS is like playing with invisible legos that you can make yourself, and when you arrange those legos in a certain way, you can do amazing things that you couldn't have dreamt of.
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04:56:15 <Bike> i should probably use full sentences and punctuation but fuck that nerd shit
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04:56:43 <quintopia> that's not CS. that's programming.
04:56:57 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulien_Hogeweg oh, a woman. that's nice.
04:57:09 <Edward___> You can make every saying a little fucked.
04:57:10 <LinearInterpol> we're dealing with abstract machines and all sorts of theories.
04:57:35 <Bike> when i think of mathematical biology i just think of lotka though.
04:57:39 <elliott> "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes" -- probably not Dijkstra
04:57:39 <Edward___> So let's say I'm building Brainfuck.
04:57:45 <Bike> or like, volterra. volterra's cool.
04:58:00 <Bike> or kolmogorov but he's just the best at everything.
04:58:10 <Bike> Have you written a brainfuck compiler yet?
04:58:12 <LinearInterpol> Edward___: choose your alphabet, choose your rules, construct an abstract machine, implement it.
04:58:25 <quintopia> elliott: P.N. Dijkstra is definitely my favorite computer philosopher
04:58:40 <zzo38> elliott: I have seen that quotations too, but I think I have seen it attributed to Dijkstra
04:59:04 <zzo38> Either way I like that quotation
04:59:08 <Bike> too bad optics is probably cooler than computer engineering, on the whole.
04:59:17 <quintopia> Edward___: oh right, i was going to mention kolmogorov machines on the above list. something worth knowing about.
04:59:51 <elliott> zzo38: I think it is apocryphal.
05:00:35 <Bike> just try writing one. brainfuck compilers are really easy
05:00:43 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: Surely I approach the project differently from a Fibonacci program...
05:00:45 <LinearInterpol> your implementation is certainly dependent upon your choice of rules/alphabet.
05:00:49 <Bike> as a first approximation, you can just replace every character with a bit of C
05:01:00 <LinearInterpol> Edward___: understand that this field is entirely arbitrary.
05:01:43 <LinearInterpol> the simplest interpreter would be iterating over a string of symbols and modifying some state.
05:01:45 <kmc> more like putchar(tape[i])
05:02:04 <Bike> then you can examine why this implementation sucks (does it work on invalid programs? does it tell you how a program is invalid? is it fast? is it safe?)
05:02:29 <Bike> what do i mean by what
05:02:53 <Bike> Edward___: "++]" isn't a valid brainfuck program, yeah?
05:03:31 <Edward___> And here my mom is saying I shouldn't talk to strangers...
05:03:54 <Bike> if i ever meet you i will sell you methylenedioxymethamphetamine so she has a point
05:05:40 <Bike> goddamn has everyone seen that television programme
05:05:42 <zzo38> Programs without matched [] are invalid brainfuck programs; it is why I suggested once that if the program's input is from the same stream, you should use ] to separate the program from the input (even though most implementations use ! instead)
05:06:19 <tromp_> i agree using ] is much more elgant; no need to expand alphabet
05:07:36 <tromp_> my 112 byte BF interpreter uses that convention too
05:07:46 <quintopia> tromp_: downside is it makes debugging harder. not that usually bothers esolangers.
05:08:44 <zzo38> It also means that ! may be used in comments like in implementations with separate program from input would do, and using ] in case of some kind of Godel numbering, it can help too I guess
05:13:32 <kmc> what's this about Gödel numbering?
05:15:14 <zzo38> kmc: For example if you want the low three bits per number as the first command, and so on, and ] is zero. Hofstadter always used decimal, although I don't like that much.
05:16:00 <kmc> methylenedioxymethamphetamine != methamphetamine, kids
05:16:18 <kmc> the former is a lot more fun
05:18:03 <quintopia> hmm. yep. much easier to pronounce
05:18:51 <kmc> also it's shaped like a lizard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MDMA_(simple).svg
05:19:35 <kmc> quintopia: i like your etymology
05:23:12 <kmc> i met a guy who did research on psychoactive drugs and he told me that it's even more complicated than I thought
05:24:03 <kmc> because two drugs which activate the same receptor with the same overall binding affinity might still produce a different distribution of receptor conformations inside the cell, which would trigger different signaling pathways
05:26:43 <zzo38> The entire report of my and other dreams are at: http://zzo38computer.org/misc/weird_dream/dream.txt They are in order of entry, which is not necessarily the order of occurence.
05:27:12 <zzo38> I know you can have fictitious events inside of other fictitious events, but what is it when you have a fictitious event logically *outside* of a fictitious event? (This happened in a dream once)
05:29:25 <zzo38> I mean, it is actually inside and not outside, but it is logically as if it is outside.
05:29:38 <kmc> zzo38: do you mean like waking up from a dream-in-a-dream?
05:34:43 <zzo38> kmc: No. My example is dreaming being someone else of even a different species or whatever, and then going to a place in the dream, that you have the belief that the real you has actually been there, even though that is fictitious and doesn't exist either. (And this belief cannot combine with the ones in context of the dream, due to the strange logic in use)
05:34:53 <zzo38> Hopefully that is clear enough to you?
05:38:15 <zzo38> Jealous? Are they so much weird compared to others, or is some other factor at work? Or, perhaps, both!
05:38:42 <quintopia> well, weird to me. i hardly ever dream.
05:47:19 <zzo38> When you do, what do you?
05:48:07 -!- kmc has set topic: [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat | When you do, what do you? | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:48:56 <kmc> i'm sorry baby i had to crash that topic
05:49:05 <shachaf> oh i thought it was a kmc lyrics quote
05:49:11 <shachaf> but it turned out to be a zzo38 quote
05:50:48 <Edward___> zzo38, you are famous in the internet, apparently.
05:51:29 <kmc> zzo38: Do you have stairs in your house?
05:51:39 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, i forgot about more-notation
05:51:43 <shachaf> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/User:Zzo38/Proposal_for_more-notation
05:52:00 <zzo38> Edward___: Yes I have seen, there is several things in there, whether it is links, random gibberish text, other people's writing, imposters, or unrelated things.
05:52:09 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I do have stairs in my house.
05:52:14 <kmc> http://zzt.org/fora/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=836
05:52:20 <kmc> zzo38: Are you protected?
05:52:55 <Edward___> Good night y'all. How do I make my quit text that Badger gif
05:53:14 <zzo38> LinearInterpol: I don't think so, but I do post in NESdev and do that stuff too
05:53:29 <kmc> Edward___: you just specify the quit text after /quit
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05:53:55 <Bike> going to badgerland
05:54:05 <kmc> the happiest place on earth!!!
05:54:08 <LinearInterpol> zzo38: can I talk to you about accepting the 6502 as your personal lord and savior.
05:54:09 <zzo38> kmc: Protected? How?
05:54:17 <kmc> zzo38: from the terrible secret of space
05:54:36 <zzo38> LinearInterpol: You can try! However, I don't accept something as my personal lord and savior.
05:54:55 <zzo38> (Other than philosophical ideals, I suppose.)
05:55:12 <zzo38> LinearInterpol: The decimal mode doesn't work in the NES/Famicom.
05:55:15 <shachaf> can i be your shared lord and savior
05:55:32 <zzo38> shachaf: You can try, but I think not.
05:56:35 <LinearInterpol> it also just occurred to me that MOS Technologies is the Bender of the semiconductor world.
05:56:50 <LinearInterpol> "I'm gonna go make my own architecture! With blackjack and hookers!"
05:57:09 <kmc> also http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/attachments/off-topic-6/46134d1371914998-count-100-000-pictures-bender_6502-jpg
05:57:33 <Bike> doesn't this mean Bender is the 6502 of the robot world
05:57:57 <zzo38> LinearInterpol: I would use the decimal mode when programming one that does have decimal mode working, but not for Famicom programs.
05:59:32 <zzo38> LinearInterpol: ???
05:59:48 <kmc> x86 Classic also has some decimal mode stuffs
06:00:20 <kmc> and the Z80 is modeled after the 8080
06:00:49 <kmc> just like the Tu-4 was modeled after the B-29
06:00:56 <zzo38> kmc: Yes it has some instructions for it, but I rarely program stuff in x86 assembly language anyways (except for a few small DOS programs; I have done a few)
06:01:09 <zzo38> (and once, a MBR code)
06:06:07 <kmc> LinearInterpol: I doubt the 6502 has any instruction built in for either blackjack or hookers although I suppose the former is possible
06:06:52 <kmc> obligatory http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html
06:09:59 <zzo38> I have seen story of Mel, too.
06:11:12 <tertu> don't modern x86 boxes still support decimal mode if you're in real mode or something
06:11:25 <kmc> in protected mode as well, i believe
06:11:28 <kmc> but not in long mode
06:11:32 <zzo38> tertu: Yes, but not in 64-bit mode
06:19:33 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these things I added in this dreaming report by now? Furthermore, do you have anything to add or to correct any errors in the text?
06:21:08 <zzo38> Are you aware of any David Sirlin games?
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06:39:13 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/lYjKKpx.png winter in san francisco
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06:40:07 <shachaf> kmc: can we have that in real degrees plz
06:41:21 <shachaf> this channel is full of people from hexham and finland
06:41:22 <zzo38> *Real* degrees? Like angular measurements?
06:41:58 <shachaf> no, like real numbers greater than -273.15
06:42:04 <mauke> real degrees, like ph.d.
06:42:30 * kmc wonders what complex angles would represent
06:44:01 <Bike> > asin 3 :: Complex
06:44:03 <lambdabot> Expecting one more argument to `Data.Complex.Complex'
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06:44:07 <Bike> no good? oh well.
06:44:11 <Bike> > asin 3 :: Complex Double
06:44:12 <lambdabot> 1.5707963267948966 :+ (-1.762747174039086)
06:44:30 <mauke> `run echo '@ASIN3' | ploki
06:44:47 <kmc> que es ploki
06:44:55 <mauke> `run echo '@ASIN 0.5' | ploki
06:44:59 <shachaf> mauke: Does ploki just read from stdin?
06:45:10 <mauke> shachaf: stdin or file
06:45:24 <mauke> it can't execute from argv
06:45:56 <shachaf> You should make a `runploki command that reads from argv.
06:46:07 <shachaf> I'd do it but I'm not sure how much special character support is necessary?
06:46:17 <kmc> tell me about ploki
06:46:58 <mauke> kmc: it's a scripting language modeled after BASIC, Perl, and assembler code
06:47:47 <mauke> shachaf: the main reason I haven't done that yet is that ploki insists on newlines between statements
06:47:54 <mauke> which is awkward on the command line
06:48:36 <shachaf> You could use echo -e or something like that. But still awkward.
06:48:47 <kmc> `run echo $'hello\nworld\n'
06:49:02 <kmc> i like to do things like git commit -am $'blah\n\blah blah'
06:49:05 <mauke> kmc: there is some documentation at http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/ploki/ploki-0.6.5.1/doc/
06:49:16 <mauke> but like the rest of ploki, it's part of the practical joke
06:49:33 <shachaf> I know about $'' but it wouldn't work with an externally supplied string.
06:49:54 <mauke> there's all sorts of fun hidden in the corners that the documentation doesn't cover
06:50:16 <mauke> e.g. it's not obvious from the description of the syntax that ploki has literally no syntax errors
06:50:49 <mauke> the only "error" it has is going into an infinite loop
06:51:25 <mauke> this is based on an implementation accident when I first did the GOTO command
06:52:06 <mauke> but I was quite pleased to discover _|_ being used both for errors and nontermination, 10 years later
06:52:57 <mauke> unlike Perl it uses _ for concatenation (instead of .)
06:53:39 <mauke> this is because at the time I didn't know about parsers and . was already part of the syntax for numeric literals (.123, etc) so I had to use something else
06:54:15 <mauke> later on, perl6 also used _ for this purpose (but then they switched to ~)
06:54:52 <mauke> because _ was taken, I needed another character to separate words in identifiers. I chose $
06:55:24 <mauke> and guess what? javascript does the same thing, treating $ as a letter!
06:56:10 <mauke> conclusion: ploki is full of silly and stupid ideas but also weirdly prophetic sometimes
06:58:47 <mauke> it almost-but-not-quite supports functional programming via the @OMFG operator
07:01:05 <mauke> ooh, and the documentation is written to make you build a nicely organized mental model of the syntax in your head (a program is a list of statements, a statement contains expressions, expressions look like this ...)
07:01:35 <mauke> but other parts of the language violate this layering
07:01:51 <mauke> if I had to write a formal grammar for it, I wouldn't even know where to start
07:30:38 <zzo38> Also in some C implementations the $ is also a letter
07:36:34 <zzo38> I looked at the ploki documentation, and some of the examples, and other stuff on the same server and found this: http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/img/regex.png I don't know what the symbol in the circle is supposed to be but I think I can understand its meaning, at least. Therefore it also give me the idea to make a label/goto operators in a regular expression
08:07:04 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/qzstp.png
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09:04:19 <Sgeo_> I might sing in public tomorrow
09:04:40 <Sgeo_> Hmm, Bike probably hasn't heard me singing
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10:14:00 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> I think exponentials may have to be involved somewhere, which, for a unit, is most odd <-- "decibels" hth
10:14:17 <oerjan> @tell Taneb Also "bits".
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10:16:31 <fizzie> Nobody also writes it "deciBel".
10:16:42 <fizzie> It's just "decibel (dB)".'
10:16:50 <FreeFull> I think 6 decibels is twice the power
10:17:39 <oerjan> indeed, officially only the abbrevations of units named after persons have capitalization.
10:18:31 <fizzie> (Well, more like 10*log10(2).)
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10:19:40 <fizzie> Though there's a factor of 2 that often appers in things related to decibels, because of some kind of a square.
10:21:17 <oerjan> amplitude vs. energy or something like that
10:21:55 <FreeFull> Twice the amplitude is four times the power
10:22:14 <fizzie> Yes. So you need a 6 dB change to double the amplitude.
10:23:38 * oerjan wonders why they chopped off the "l" in Bell's name
10:24:30 <Sgeo_> I can only assume that cojazz is the dual of jazz
10:24:59 <fizzie> oerjan: That's still better than calling the unit "Alexander", though.
10:25:23 <fizzie> Then we'd be measuring sound and other thing in decialexanders (dA).
10:26:06 <FreeFull> Sgeo_: Actually, jazz is self-dual
10:27:20 <FreeFull> fizzie: A is already taken anyway
10:27:37 <oerjan> fizzie: have any units been named after someone's first name
10:29:19 <fizzie> I can't think of any. I'm sure there's at least some "jokey" thing.
10:30:01 <oerjan> i see they mangled Napier's name even worse.
10:30:24 <fizzie> How about Kelvin, I guess that's not exactly a surname?
10:30:47 <fizzie> Given that it's "William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin" or some-suchg.
10:30:56 <oerjan> well it's presumably a place name
10:31:04 <fizzie> Also re Bell -> bel, there's also Faraday -> farad.
10:31:38 <FreeFull> He was lorded for what he did with thermodynamics though
10:31:51 <FreeFull> The title came from the river Kelvin
10:33:18 <fizzie> (I'm going through Wikipedia's "List of scientific units named after people", looking for first names; none so far.)
10:35:12 <oerjan> i somehow associate the custom of nobles (or royals) having surnames distinct from their titles as something british.
10:35:54 <fizzie> Oh, helens (you know, 1 millihelen is the amount of beauty needed to launch one ship, and so on) are named after a first name. I guess. I mean, I don't suppose Helen of Troy has a recorded surname, anyway.
10:38:05 <oerjan> yeah i was thinking of explicitly excluding any units named after ancients, but couldn't think of any.
10:38:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Have you ever measured anything in oersteds?
10:38:41 <lambdabot> oerjan said 24m 41s ago: <Taneb> I think exponentials may have to be involved somewhere, which, for a unit, is most odd <-- "decibels" hth
10:38:42 <lambdabot> oerjan said 24m 24s ago: Also "bits".
10:38:51 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, I realised
10:39:18 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't think so.
10:40:09 <fizzie> Just thought you might have a natural affinity.
10:41:31 <oerjan> it seems to be obsolete (pre-SI)
10:41:55 <oerjan> also, i dropped out of physics about when i should have got seriously into electromagnetism.
10:42:38 <oerjan> allergic aversion to lab writeups, terrible case.
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10:45:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> anyway coexponentials are left adjoint to coproducts or something?? <-- is there any category that has those and isn't obviously the dual of something more natural.
10:46:47 <oerjan> i note an absense of any prominent wikipedia link.
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14:37:43 <mroman> > [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat
14:37:45 <lambdabot> [Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Jus...
14:38:35 <mroman> > [Just (), Nothing] >>= cycle.([])
14:38:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe () -> [b0]'
14:39:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> [a1]' with actual type `[a2]'
14:39:05 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(.)', namely `([])'
14:39:41 <mroman> I thought [] is essentially \a -> [a]
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15:07:06 <FreeFull> Note that (:[]) is just as long as pure
15:07:11 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Applicative.Applicative f0)
15:07:11 <lambdabot> The type variable `f0' is ambiguous
15:07:11 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
15:07:11 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
15:07:36 <FreeFull> That would work if something else depended on it being a list
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16:20:16 <mroman> return for applictives?
16:21:01 <lambdabot> (Monad m, MonadTrans t) => m a -> t m a
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16:21:22 <mroman> > (lift id $ 5) :: Maybe Int
16:21:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match kind `*' with `* -> *'
16:21:24 <lambdabot> Expected type: (->) (Data.Maybe.Maybe GHC.Types.Int)
16:21:24 <lambdabot> Actual type: (->) (Data.Maybe.Maybe GHC.Types.Int)
16:21:49 <mroman> That does not work that way
16:22:41 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Arrow.Arrow a0)
16:22:41 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
16:22:41 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
16:22:41 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
16:23:03 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `MaybeT'
16:23:03 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `Maybe' (imported from Data.Maybe)
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16:48:53 <FreeFull> @let import Control.Monad.Trans.Maybe
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17:18:25 <kmc> (>) :: IO t -> FilePath -> IO t; main = putStrLn "Hello, world!" > "foo.txt"
17:26:30 <FreeFull> What would you use for inequality?
17:30:50 <FreeFull> | probably can't be used because of guard syntax
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18:08:59 <kmc> taking this NYT American English dialect quiz
18:09:03 <kmc> "QUESTION 24 OF 25: What do you call a drive-through liquor store?"
18:09:24 <Taneb> I still don't believe they exist
18:10:04 <kmc> http://gowally.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/double_shot_liquor_guns.jpg
18:10:45 <Taneb> Well, screw the real world I am going to watch the Hobbit again
18:10:57 <kmc> drive through hobbits and rings
18:11:45 <fizzie> Drive-through volcanoes, for all your on-the-go ring-of-doom unmaking needs.
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18:16:22 * kmc dejectedly sets down his `relcome
18:18:29 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:21:02 <kmc> `relcome zzo38
18:21:04 <HackEgo> zzo38: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:21:32 <shachaf> oerjan: wow, do you just hate duals
18:21:49 <shachaf> oerjan: you're like http://math.stackexchange.com/q/556921
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19:27:16 <FireFly> FreeFull: there's always ¦
19:28:48 <FreeFull> Yeah, but that's an unicode character. Some people can't write it
19:29:26 <kmc> THEY'RE ALL UNICODE CHARACTERS
19:29:30 <kmc> THAT IS THE POINT OF UNICODE
19:30:50 <FreeFull> Sorry, I meant a character that's outside ASCII
19:31:20 <FireFly> Hm, I can't remember if altgr+shift+< is ¦ on windows se-qwerty too, or if that's a X11 thing
19:31:48 <FireFly> It's not printed on the keyboard, so I guess the latter is likely
19:31:54 <Bike> ¦ is on the backslash/pipe key or me.
19:32:29 <zzo38> Actually there are also many things that aren't available in Unicode, although all ASCII characters are available, at least, and many others (with a lot of confusing and redundancy and other complexities and stupid stuff, though)
19:32:42 <kmc> zzo38: which characters aren't available in Unicode?
19:32:53 <kmc> Klingon and most other constructed writing systems
19:33:03 <kmc> though they have semi-official private use area allocations
19:33:28 * kmc . o O ( and yet Hangul is in the BMP )
19:33:42 <olsner> FireFly: probably not, I think someone went a bit crazy mapping altgr-everything in x's keymaps
19:33:50 <Bike> wait, why wouldn't hangul be in the bmp
19:34:01 <kmc> the joke is that hangul is a constructed writing system
19:34:11 <mroman> We should probably switch to Vector Fonts
19:34:22 <mroman> If they don't already exist, I call it my invention .
19:34:37 <kmc> it just happens to be the most popular one by like 5 orders of magnitude
19:34:39 <mroman> so there's no encoding anymore at all
19:34:45 <Sgeo_> Ok, so | is different from the one with the space inside, although my keyboard's rendition of | has a space inside
19:34:47 <mroman> It's just Vector Graphics STuff
19:35:09 <kmc> Sgeo_: I think http://www.wps.com/J/codes/ has far more than you could ever want to know on this subject
19:35:11 <mroman> also... you wouldn't need a font anymore .
19:35:23 <Bike> i think you'll fine most writing systems are constructed :colbert: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cangjie2.jpg
19:35:25 <mroman> The text is already in vector graphics form.
19:35:55 <kmc> "Legend has it that he had four eyes and four pupils, and that when he invented the characters, the deities and ghosts cried and the sky rained millet"
19:36:33 <Sgeo_> mroman: how would copy/paste work?
19:36:35 <Bike> mroman: you know, being able to choose a font is actually an advantage.
19:36:46 <Sgeo_> Actually, no, copy/paste would work
19:36:57 <Sgeo_> But you'd be stuck with the formatting of the original, I think
19:37:17 <mroman> Sgeo_: Why wouldn't that work
19:37:22 <mroman> It's just character after character
19:37:39 <mroman> The same way it works with Bitmap Fonts essentially
19:38:16 <Sgeo_> Are there actual code-points involved, or is every 'character' just an image, with no way to compare between 'fonts'?
19:38:21 <kmc> mroman: it's rather inconvenient to manipulate text when it's stored as individual strokes
19:38:30 <mroman> A character is a description of its appearance
19:38:51 <Sgeo_> Ok, suppose I have a website written by a very smart person, but they used a Comic Sans like font
19:39:00 <Bike> good supposition
19:39:02 <Sgeo_> I want to copy something they said into an email to some professional person
19:39:17 <kmc> Sgeo_: is this person named Simon Peyton Jones
19:39:29 <Sgeo_> How do I do that while stripping the bad formatting? Or do I just say "Sorry, the person who wrote this used Comic Sans"?
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19:42:24 <kmc> or what if you want to, say, index or search or translate text
19:42:51 <elliott> mroman: you could just store every document as an svg with no text in it
19:42:55 <elliott> doesn't mean this is in any way a good idea
19:43:07 <elliott> anyway, fonts don't have fixed grids, generally
19:43:13 <elliott> (monospaced ones are the exception, and even then...)
19:45:16 <Bike> i don't think i can remember any language-inventors more colorful than cangjie
19:45:25 <Bike> oh. wikipedia has an article.
19:45:39 <kmc> the process which takes a font and a sequence of codepoints and outputs a vector image is called text shaping and it's very complicated
19:45:40 <Bike> well, none of them will be more badass than Sequoyah, anyway
19:46:10 <kmc> Bike: true facts.
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20:37:05 <fizzie> Learned today: the most arbitrary-looking numeric limit ever: http://sprunge.us/PeNV
20:38:59 <kmc> that's in the ballpark of 80 bits... maybe they added 80 bit support for x87
20:39:01 <kmc> doesn't quite add up though
20:43:02 <fizzie> I guess it's something more complicated, since it's not even consistent: http://sprunge.us/ePMZ
20:44:09 <fizzie> 0x00001000000000000000000000000000 is also okay.
20:44:24 <fizzie> Maybe it's some sort of "can be exactly represented in some type" kind of thing.
20:45:01 <fizzie> (It doesn't actually set the correct value even when it doesn't complain, if it's >64 bits, so...)
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20:47:42 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/cFNW yes, I'm going to go with "is exact for an 80-bit long double" kind of thing. (That has 64 bits of precision, as I recall.)
20:49:24 <kmc> clearly you should put together a "wat" talk for GDB
20:50:47 <kmc> one thing that really frustrated me is that there's no easy way to examine a memory operand of the form %fs:0x70
20:51:34 <kmc> i ended up writing a .c file with «unsigned long foo() { unsigned long x; asm volatile("mov %%fs:0x70, %0" : "=r"(x)); return x; }» and compiling it to a .so and pulling it in with LD_PRELOAD and calling «print foo()» within GDB
20:51:46 <kmc> bit roundabout although I'm very pleased with myself
20:54:06 <fizzie> You could probably write a macro, I've seen some quite hairy gdb macros.
20:54:35 <kmc> how would it work though?
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20:56:55 <fizzie> Hrm. I guess you can't get the segment bases in any sensible way.
20:57:27 <kmc> you could force the traced process to call arch_prctl(ARCH_GET_FS)
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21:12:19 <Sgeo_> "“I had a sex dream about an autistic kid last night. #fml.".. are people offended by the 'kid', by the '#fml'... or just at the notion of sex with an autistic person?
21:12:50 <Sgeo_> Because if it's the latter, that's kind of offensive, to suggest that autistic people shouldn't have sex
21:13:11 <tertu> i interpreted it as the "fml"
21:13:16 <tertu> or perhaps the kid
21:13:19 <kmc> but i'm missing the context here
21:13:31 <Bike> 'autistic kid' connotes someone who's not "high-functioning" and probably not capable of consent, to me, at least in that context
21:13:40 <Sgeo_> kmc: some PR person tweeted something offensive recently, and that quote was another tweet from earlier people got offended about
21:14:02 <tertu> there's this reporter(??) who got suspended for tweeting something like "i'm going to Africa, hope i don't get aids, oh wait i'm white"
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21:14:18 <Sgeo_> http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/12/upper_level_pr_exec_tweets_that_she_is_going_to_africa_hope_i_don_t_get.html
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21:15:21 <quintopia> yeah i don't see why you'd be offended by someone's dreams. presumably they have no control over such things. (on the other hand, why would you tweet your sex dreams?)
21:15:48 <Sgeo_> I may have made mention of some of my sexual dreams online
21:16:24 <kmc> it's up to her who she wants to have sex with but saying in public that people in this or that group are unfuckable is an asshole move
21:17:08 <kmc> i have definitely talked about sex dreams in #esoteric
21:19:40 <kmc> i have this cool thing going where a) i'm a rich white guy b) i work in an industry with v. low standards for personal conduct c) i'm nobody and nobody really cares what i say
21:19:55 <kmc> so i can talk about all kinds of embarassing things and it's fine
21:21:14 <Fiora> I think it's more along the lines of like, 99% of the time a privileged person talks about having sex with <some minority/oppressed/disabled group they're not part of> it's basicaly always either insulting or fetishization or some mix <.<
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21:26:57 <doesthiswork> so I've been learning about the big personalities in the webcomic world.
21:27:32 * oerjan is starting to wonder exactly how rich kmc is.
21:27:50 <doesthiswork> I think a very exciting reality show could be created just by putting them all in one room
21:28:37 <kmc> to be clear, I think it's a good thing that I won't be fired for talking about sex dreams in #esoteric, but I don't think that should extend to racism sexism ableism etc.
21:30:04 <kmc> if I act that way in public yeah, depending on circumstances
21:30:49 <kmc> oerjan: well I have a job so I feel pretty well off by the standards of the new american economy
21:31:26 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: i dunno I don't really feel like getting into this in depth
21:33:42 <kmc> why are there 3 different incompatible systems for rating HVAC filter effectiveness
21:36:31 <lambdabot> Title: HVAC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
21:36:41 <oerjan> lambdabot: why thank you lambdabot
21:36:59 <oerjan> where's metasepia when you need it
21:37:18 <oerjan> @google HVAC definition
21:37:52 <oerjan> kmc: it's because there's no such thing hth
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21:42:15 <oerjan> that poor peripheral air gets no love
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21:43:41 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: he only has a lease on me! ...ok, no, i had a lot of debts ok
21:43:57 <quintopia> oerjan: sure it does. i know plenty of folks and businesses with window units.
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21:46:13 <shachaf> if kmc owns me p. sure he's obligated to fix me when i'm broken
21:47:30 <quintopia> shachaf: did you try sleeping? hth
21:48:46 <zzo38> kmc: Things like Klingon aren't the only things not available in Unicode. Also some of the characters (including control characters) from the Commodore 64 and other computers. (All of the PC characters are available, though.)
21:49:47 <Bike> well, shit, shut it all down
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21:55:05 <oerjan> shachaf: a dual killed galois, you know
21:56:05 <lambdabot> sclv says: Q: Why are the adjunctions of Galois connections backwards? A: He never got the hang of duals.
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22:18:10 <wlee23> Today I found my favorite idea for a possible language.
22:18:25 <wlee23> Final Fantasy, where you have to code 200 lines before your program STARTS to have meaning.
22:19:12 <ais523> that's in interesting esolang idea even without the refrence
22:21:02 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't that fairly common depending on your interpretation
22:23:42 <wlee23> It's on the website, I stumbled upon it.
22:23:49 <wlee23> Haha, and yeah that is true.
22:24:00 <wlee23> anyway, y'all take care, I'm off to see Frozen.
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22:30:32 <Gregor> Anybody know of a synchronization tool similar to rsync but with a source cache so it can avoid communication with the destination whatsoever if the source hasn't changed?
22:36:01 <Sgeo_> http://mashable.com/2013/12/21/gogo-justine-sacco/
22:51:22 * oerjan suddenly has this idea that someone should invent a drug that makes you forget which people are acceptable joke targets. then put it in the water supply across the northern hemisphere.
22:52:06 <oerjan> come to think of it, that might end up as a prelude to another remake of On the Beach.
22:53:57 <oerjan> or maybe a james bond movie.
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22:56:03 <oerjan> or perhaps a drug that makes you find _all_ jokes offensive.
22:57:51 <oerjan> you don't need to put the latter joke into the chinese water supply though, it wouldn't make a difference anyhow.
22:58:18 <LinearInterpol> putting jokes into the water supply really waters them down.
22:58:37 <olsner> makes the water taste funny though
23:00:26 <oerjan> is it bad when your main prejudice against an ethnicity is that they're ridiculously sensitive
23:05:08 <olsner> are swedes ridiculously sensitive?
23:05:19 <oerjan> (the difference is that the chinese are sensitive about themselves, while the swedes are sensitive about everyone else)
23:06:44 <olsner> the swedish press would certainly make it seem that way at least
23:06:54 <olsner> I think they're trying to pit the overly sensitive half against the people who get outraged how people can be so overly sensitive and get offended by silly stuff
23:08:20 <oerjan> sounds profitable. also: timbuktu.
23:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> everyone is always asking me, "why do you hate the swedes"
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23:09:07 <olsner> oerjan: there was some sort of controversy involving him, right? do you know what it was about?
23:09:26 <oerjan> olsner: no i don't remember
23:09:57 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: do you hate the swedes?
23:10:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wehlcome: not found
23:10:20 <olsner> `thanks Phantom_Hoover
23:10:21 <HackEgo> Thanks, Phantom_Hoover. Thantom_Hoover.
23:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> my theory is that you were abducted from finland or norway at birth
23:10:45 <HackEgo> Jm_329: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
23:11:02 <JM_329> My I know the topic, please?
23:11:53 <oerjan> it's right there in HackEgo's response. although i guess it's a bit heavy on the CamelCase.
23:12:24 <ais523> it's about esoteric programming languages
23:12:38 <ais523> we should really put that in the topic, but people prefer jokes for some reason
23:12:46 <ais523> `pastlog development and deployment
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23:13:20 <ais523> `pastlog development and deployment
23:13:33 <HackEgo> 2008-06-18.txt:00:01:28: -!- oklofok changed the topic of #esoteric to: The coolest ever international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric
23:14:14 <oerjan> ais523: i thought the welcome message was based on that old topic
23:14:35 <ais523> but you can't read it in the stupid welcomes
23:14:44 <ais523> I think for new people, we should stick to the standard `welcome
23:15:35 <shachaf> It should say "development" rather than "deployment".
23:15:45 <shachaf> What does it even mean to deploy an esoteric programming language?
23:16:05 <oerjan> fungot: you're deploying befunge, right?
23:16:06 <fungot> oerjan: i don't watch too many videos at home, somebody remind me to update my development platform, but hey, it's fun
23:16:22 * oerjan swats function for tab-shadowing -----###
23:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> we should really put that in the topic, but people prefer jokes for some reason
23:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> we must never forget the importance of being unflinchingly humourless
23:17:19 <ais523> seriously, though, it's basically impossible to use this channel for its intended purpose any more
23:17:27 <ais523> and I consider social channels mostly uninteresting
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23:17:58 <coppro> http://www.mscs.dal.ca/~selinger/papers/qlambdabook.pdf
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23:34:42 <Taneb> ais523, I've found that when someone starts discussing esolangs everyone else normally follows
23:35:18 <ais523> Taneb: no, like one person normally follows, for like 5 minutes :-(
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00:35:11 <quintopia> ais523: esolang esolang Esolang. esolang?
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04:42:06 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: Hey! Just finished the groundwork for my brainfuck compiler!
04:43:53 <Edward___> Well, by groundwork I mean: I've gotten the File IO stuff taken care of with C (which I'm still shaky with)
04:44:07 <Edward___> So I can pass two arguments, one for the text file, one for the output c file.
04:44:47 <Edward___> And, it works! Now I'm working on the actual reading of information from the first file, clearly. Can write to second file, but reading is, well, nasty.
04:45:43 <Edward___> When I've finished, I'll put it on Github, if you'd like to see if you can help clean it up, please!
04:47:09 <Edward___> Great, I've only been working for about twenty minutes, I'll see what I can do before I knock out tonight. I'll stay on the channel in case I finish early.
04:48:02 <LinearInterpol> Ever vigilant is the programmer, armed with his knowledge of code. I wish you the best of luck. :)
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04:48:30 <Bike> is that why everyone just idles
04:48:41 <Bike> also singular they ftw
04:49:05 <oklopol> "When you do, what do you?" is very sofe du phil
04:50:07 <Edward___> I like reading it when I log on haha
04:51:21 <Bike> has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like
04:51:28 <oklopol> Edward___: i like you, who are you?
04:51:49 <LinearInterpol> Bike: there is a full 20 page continuation of that I shit you not.
04:52:23 <Bike> is there a usual edward
04:53:02 <kmc> there are a few haskell-edwards
04:53:03 <oklopol> so in france i was talking to some people and i saw this poster on some logic that has call/cc and i said "ooh what's that now" and forgot the people existed
04:53:12 <Bike> oh right, edwardk
04:53:26 <kmc> logic that has call/cc = classical logic?
04:53:45 <oklopol> what do you mean by classical logic?
04:54:08 <oklopol> and i don't know in what sense any logic has call/cc
04:54:23 <oklopol> the poster was not very specific :(
04:54:26 <Bike> logic with call/cc is equivalent to classical predicate logic or some shit like that i think
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04:54:38 <oklopol> you guys have so much to teach me
04:55:20 <oklopol> Bike: that'd be more helpful if i knew what "logic" means
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04:56:15 <oklopol> "The Curry-Howard correspondence between proofs and programs relates call/cc to Peirce's law."
04:56:22 <Edward___> I am a new Edward, hence the double underscore
04:56:24 <kmc> oklopol: classical logic is the kind with ¬¬p → p
04:56:26 <oklopol> you guys knew this and never told me? :(
04:56:43 <Edward___> I joined last night, and LinearInterpol has mentored me ever since hahaha
04:56:45 <Bike> i can't tell how serious anyone's being right now, help
04:56:49 <kmc> oklopol: type systems give you constructive logic by default but the type of call/cc is Peirce's Law and adding that as an axiom to a constructive logic makes it classical
04:58:51 <oklopol> i only know peirce's law from reading metamath
04:59:13 <kmc> to prove (p ∨ ¬p), make a baseless assertion that ¬p, but also capture the current continuation. if somebody calls BS on your claim by providing a witness for p, use the continuation to go back in time and say that p was true all along
04:59:16 <Bike> i think there's a decent chance i would actually like reading peirce directly, hmmmmm
04:59:41 <Bike> gotta learn me some abduction
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05:00:24 <oklopol> kmc: ooh would like to see some detail on that
05:00:36 <kmc> that got weird
05:00:46 <Bike> probably ripe for esolangs too reall y
05:01:00 <kmc> ... i like weird
05:01:10 <kmc> anyway uh i don't have that much more detail... I could write out a term with the right type in Haskell's Cont monad, given enough time, but I probably won't
05:01:19 <kmc> maybe someone else can do it or find it in the logs
05:02:17 <kmc> I guess I should also prove that ∀p. ¬¬p → p is equivalent to ∀p. (p ∨ ¬p) maybe
05:02:41 <Bike> i should think that's more well known
05:02:50 <oklopol> i think i should first try to recall how peirce's law works
05:03:06 <oklopol> i mean iirc i was able to find it obvious last time i looked
05:04:20 <oklopol> not that it's needed for understanding how it corresponds to call/cc prolly, if indeed it's the type of it
05:04:50 <oklopol> why is that the type of call/cc?
05:05:21 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
05:05:21 <Edward___> This is all predicate logic from discrete math
05:05:58 <Bike> i have no idea why callCC has that type, of course.
05:06:01 <Edward___> Anyway, guys... I found something worse than hating yourself for missing a semicolon from not paying attention
05:06:21 <oklopol> Bike: thank you for joining us stupids :)
05:06:25 <Edward___> Forgetting to add a semicolon on a file that you're creating with a program from not paying attention...
05:06:38 <oklopol> i don't even know what MonadCont is
05:06:50 <Edward___> Nesting problems makes them more annoying
05:06:51 <Bike> i think it's just a typeclass for Cont because I don't know? HASKELL
05:07:03 <kmc> yeah because you might have a monad transformer stack with ContT in it somewhere
05:07:12 <Bike> anyway so callcc takes a function that returns a thingie, i got that much
05:07:20 <kmc> Bike: well a continuation has type (a → ⊥) because you call it and it doesn't return
05:07:21 <Bike> and that function takes a function that takes a non-thingie and makes a thingie out of it
05:07:33 <Bike> which.. i guess is the continuation, ok.
05:07:37 <kmc> and that's sort of like (∀b. a → b)
05:08:00 <zzo38> What is a "non-thingie"?
05:08:06 <Bike> a value not in the cont monad.
05:08:18 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: update, got the reading working. I'll be done in just a little, hopefully.
05:08:19 <Bike> somebody's probably having a heart attack from my use of wordes
05:08:28 <kmc> so call/cc calls a function of type (∀b. a → b) → a, i.e. passing a continuation as the argument, and the function can also return an 'a' normally
05:08:34 <Bike> right ok, makes sense
05:08:42 <Bike> and it can also call the continuation on an a and that returns it right off
05:08:48 <kmc> and uh you can hoist the ∀ out to top level because *handwave*
05:08:50 <Bike> from the, callcc thing.
05:09:01 <kmc> actually I remember encountering a situation where I wanted the rank-3 callCC with the ∀ inside
05:09:09 <kmc> but it's usually good enough to have it on the outside
05:09:17 <zzo38> Law of excluded middle continuations can be made too, similar to how kmc described above
05:09:21 <shachaf> Well, you can always instantiate it with Void.
05:09:40 <kmc> and use void elimination wherever I need to use it polymorphically? yeah good point
05:09:44 <zzo38> I called it "lemCC", though, rather than whatever the proper name is (if there is one)
05:09:49 <kmc> (is that elimination or introduction? i can never keep 'em straight)
05:10:16 <shachaf> Elimination, I guess, since you're consuming it.
05:11:06 <kmc> om nom nom
05:11:44 <zzo38> Is there a more proper name for such a thing? lemCC :: Either a (a -> Cont r b)
05:11:46 <oklopol> kmc: what element of a does it return?
05:11:58 <Bike> does what return
05:11:58 <oklopol> the one coming off the continuation... never?
05:12:11 <oklopol> i mean the call of the function with the current continuation
05:12:18 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, that's uninhabited in Haskell.
05:12:27 <Bike> i'm thinkin a this like scheme because ha ha haskell
05:12:39 <Bike> call/cc takes a "continuation" which we pretend is a function from things to bottom
05:12:48 <Bike> er, it takes a function that takes a continuation
05:12:57 <shachaf> You can always make a continuation a separate type rather than pretending it's a function.
05:13:00 <Bike> and the function can also just never call the continuation, returning normally
05:13:15 <oklopol> also i don't know what (∀b. a → b) actually means
05:13:34 <Bike> shachaf: but then it wouldn't look like peirce's law? or something?? i only know peirce from like mapmaking and shit
05:14:01 <Bike> oklopol: it can return a value of any possible type i think? and the only value that fits that is bottom
05:14:08 <Bike> or undefined w/e types values fuck fuck fuck
05:15:01 <oklopol> does it mean it has all possible types? is that the same as saying it has both types a -> int and a -> string, since int \cap string is empty?
05:15:02 <shachaf> there's so much backlog/scrollback/whatever is it worth reading
05:15:20 <Bike> shachaf: it only goes back like ten minutes
05:15:21 <shachaf> oklopol: There's no real notion of \cap of types.
05:15:27 <shachaf> Bike: yes but y'all talk so much
05:15:50 <Bike> ok five screens, and that's on my ridiculous x600 screen
05:15:53 <oklopol> well i guess the intersection of two types should always be empty
05:16:24 <oklopol> so can you have a function with both types a -> int and a -> string?
05:16:24 <shachaf> ok what's the question at hand here
05:16:34 <shachaf> oklopol: Yes, using polymorphism.
05:16:41 <Bike> the a -> m b part particularly
05:16:52 <shachaf> If you have a function of type (forall b. a -> b), it means the caller can pick what b is.
05:16:54 <oklopol> but you cannot have something of type (∀b. a → b) using polymorphism?
05:17:09 <shachaf> Of course, such a type is uninhabited in Haskell.
05:17:14 <shachaf> But you can express the type.
05:17:22 <zzo38> shachaf: Correct that is because I made a mistake.
05:17:27 <shachaf> Bike: Well, it might be clearer to pretend you had first-class callCC.
05:17:31 <Bike> Wait, it's uninhabited? What's the continuation then
05:17:32 <zzo38> It should be: Cont r (Either a (a -> Cont r b))
05:17:32 <oklopol> why is it uninhabited? because it should work also for empty b?
05:17:35 <zzo38> That is what I meant
05:17:37 <shachaf> I.e. ccc :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a
05:17:38 <Bike> and what's first class call cc gosh
05:17:46 <shachaf> No "m"s to get in the way.
05:17:57 <shachaf> Then you can figure out the ms later.
05:18:09 <Bike> how's it uninhabited though
05:18:29 <shachaf> Well, (forall b. Int -> b) means that you give me an Int and I give you something of any type you like.
05:18:39 <shachaf> But some types are uninhabited, so obviously I can't do that.
05:18:39 <Bike> :t \x -> undefined
05:18:50 <shachaf> Uninhabited if you ignore _|_.
05:18:57 <zzo38> (It is still a mistake because it should be ContT and that stuff, but hopefully now is understandable)
05:19:00 <Bike> But the function itself isn't bottom, riht?
05:19:30 <Bike> I mean, is forall b. a -> b a roundabout way of saying a function with a bottom return type, or what.
05:19:44 <Bike> i should really stop conflating bottom and undefined, huh
05:20:01 <oklopol> "<shachaf> Uninhabited if you ignore _|_." and isn't this value exactly why the type is useful, if you can then do continuation stuff with this sort of type?
05:20:02 <kmc> well, don't confuse the type ⊥ with the value ⊥ (which is a member of every type)
05:20:10 <Bike> that's what i meant right
05:20:26 <shachaf> The type _|_ and the value _|_ have almost nothing to do with each other.
05:20:28 <kmc> if you have the value ⊥ in all the types in your language then your logic is unsound for actual logic
05:20:28 <oklopol> okay what Bike said i guess
05:20:33 <shachaf> They're both minimal in two different (semi)lattices.
05:20:34 <kmc> because you can use that value to prove any proposition
05:20:37 <Bike> the type bottom doesn't have the value bottom in it
05:20:45 <LinearInterpol> Edward___: Sorry, was AFK. Awesome, now the next step is to parse it. :)
05:20:51 * Bike flips a table over
05:21:13 <Bike> mad as hell and i'm not going to take it any more
05:21:23 <shachaf> every type has an extra inhabitant representing non-termination or whatever
05:21:29 <Bike> gonna start a stupid ass tv show where i just yell pointlessly at everything
05:21:32 <Edward___> Is it cheating if I use the translations that Wikipedia provides?
05:21:48 <shachaf> let x = x in x, or undefined, or whatever are all considered equivalent and we call them all _|_
05:22:16 <shachaf> actually looking at a value of type _|_ is equivalent to your program going into an infinite loop (and/or crashing, whatever)
05:22:19 <LinearInterpol> Edward___: Tip: if on a unix system, have an option to write to standard output.
05:22:31 <shachaf> but when we talk about haskell as logic we pretend _|_ doesn't exist because it makes it nice
05:22:46 <oklopol> does the curry-howard isomorphism for haskell's types work if you say a type is true if it contains a non-bottom value
05:22:55 <shachaf> so for the purpose of this entire discussion we'll pretend the value _|_ (undefined, infinite loops, whatever) doesn't exist
05:22:57 <Bike> starting to think talking about logic in haskell might, in fact, be kind of silly??
05:23:12 <shachaf> talking is fine because you can play pretend
05:23:24 <shachaf> implementing is p. bad, which is why haskell isn't a theorem proving system
05:23:26 <Bike> yeah but then why not use something that isn't haskell.
05:23:40 <shachaf> because you already kind of know haskell and it's good enough at expressing all these concepts
05:23:41 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: Great idea. I'll implement it tomorrow though, I need sleep haha. For now I'll just do the C file.
05:23:47 <Bike> wait, was that my fault? maybe it was me who brought up call c c
05:23:54 <LinearInterpol> there was a language derived from haskell that wasa theory proving system.
05:24:22 <shachaf> agda is good and you can get many useful haskell intuitions from it
05:24:26 <shachaf> but imo let's stick with haskell
05:24:41 <oklopol> then again it was me who asked and i don't know haskell :(
05:24:53 <shachaf> Is LinearInterpol actually = oklopol?
05:25:25 <oklopol> yeah i say all the _really_ stupid stuff with my other nick.
05:25:26 <shachaf> LinearInterpol: maybe you should change your nick
05:26:03 <shachaf> ok who actually wants to me to talk about this thing
05:26:14 <oklopol> me, but we can do that later.
05:27:58 <Bike> isn't it like five am in france
05:28:16 <Bike> isn't it like five am in finland
05:28:20 <oklopol> it's 7:30 here and 6:30 in france
05:29:02 <oklopol> like all mathematicians who can work whenever the fuck they like, i wake up at 6 every morning
05:29:15 <oklopol> (and usually wank around here for an hour asdkfj)
05:29:25 <Bike> what's it like being compltely incompreensible
05:29:56 <oklopol> it takes a practise but is worth.
05:30:21 <Bike> oh yeah well i wake up at ten... pm
05:30:24 <oklopol> i used to, but life got in the way
05:30:42 <Bike> should be going to sleep soon in fact so i ccan wake up on time
05:30:48 <Bike> see you in half an hour
05:33:42 <LinearInterpol> snow is a filthy demon that we have to fight back with shovels and beards.
05:33:54 <Edward___> we don't have those here in the Bible Belt.
05:34:26 <Edward___> It's the worst place to be an Agnostic...
05:35:10 <Edward___> my brother's an Atheist, at least she can say "Edward's just having doubts"
05:35:35 <Edward___> Issue, my Terminal won't open after crashing it after an infinite loop...
05:37:19 <Edward___> I'll send it to you tomorrow instead of tonight, okay>
05:38:04 <Edward___> I have a party at night, so I'll try and catch you in the morning.
05:39:20 <Edward___> Ooooh pretty. I'm in Atlanta, so nowhere near as scenic. Or snowy.
05:40:04 <Edward___> Anyway, I'll be on until noon or 1pm, hope to catch you!
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05:41:29 <shachaf> Your nick is too long and too capitalized.
05:42:57 <shachaf> You could go with "affine".
05:43:09 -!- LinearInterpol has changed nick to fourier.
05:43:50 -!- fourier has changed nick to LinearInterpol.
05:44:09 <shachaf> Or you could just go with "oklopol".
05:44:34 <shachaf> Oh, you could go with "relevant".
05:44:44 <shachaf> That's even more obscure than "affine"!
05:46:08 -!- LinearInterpol has changed nick to relevant.
05:46:12 <relevant> son of a bitch it isn't taken.
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06:52:48 <zzo38> As it turns out I did find some mistakes (and omissions) in this dream.txt file; I typed "isomorphic" but I meant "isometric" and fixed it; also some things I omitted before, I added in, and so on.
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07:08:56 <Bike> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8731765/Pictures%20and%20video/Glimpses%20of%20reality/don%27t%20do%20it.jpg it's cool how domain specific languages always seem to be esolangs
07:10:23 <Jafet> Is there an esolang that involves stupid ownership information
07:11:55 <zzo38> Bike: Do they? Well, even in esolang wiki there is information about prehistory of esoteric programming, and Dada Engine is mentioned on Wikipedia as an example too but I am not so sure. However, one thing that is mentioned on esolang wiki, is Automouse.
07:12:36 <zzo38> Bike: And what is the program in the picture?
07:13:34 <zzo38> Furthermore, what operations is the error message refering to?
07:13:41 <coppro> Jafet: ownership information?
07:16:12 <Bike> it controls robots, like car manufacturing ones
07:16:17 <Bike> no idea what it does
07:17:59 <Bike> well, i guess i can surmise that it's a program to pick up an object and put it down somewhere else.
07:26:19 <Jafet> This looks like the assembly language of the robot
07:26:30 <Jafet> (Assembly language of an assembly robot?)
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07:40:07 <zzo38> What programming languages might have their own other smaller programming languages/syntaxes for use with certain commands?
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07:41:00 <zzo38> Yes, that is one example of what I mean too.
07:41:21 <Bike> C++ adds templating.
07:41:31 <Bike> for uh some definition of "smaller" i suppose :p
07:41:39 <zzo38> Other things are embedded assembly language codes or SQL codes in some programs.
07:42:39 <zzo38> What other kind of examples are there? I find that in some of my programs it tends to also have additional syntaxes for other purposes built-in too
07:43:18 <zzo38> Maybe the PLAY and DRAW commands in BASIC, kind of are
07:43:40 <zzo38> Many programming languages have regular expressions
07:43:56 <kmc> I almost feel like every API is an example of this
07:44:03 <Bike> yeah, it's hard to draw a line.
07:46:50 <zzo38> kmc: Maybe, but some things may be more so or less so than others
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08:25:36 <Jafet> kmc: especially the cross-language ones
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08:39:48 <coppro> how does one measure time and space efficiency in the lambda calculus?
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08:41:35 <Bike> count reduction steps?
08:42:50 <shachaf> You have no reason to believe this sentence.
08:44:38 <Bike> yeah i do, shachaf doesn't usually lie for no reason
08:45:44 <coppro> Bike: is that a guess?
08:45:58 <Bike> maybe it would help if this was conveyed to me in the form of a universially quantified sentence referencing some fucking island
08:46:17 <shachaf> did you figure out the callcc business yet
08:46:54 <Bike> play some god damned billy joel
08:47:27 <shachaf> you can do a haskell exercise if you just want to figure it out by brute force
08:47:40 <shachaf> using ccc :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a; ccc = undefined
08:47:47 <shachaf> define lem :: Either (a -> Void) a
08:48:35 <Bike> lem = law-excluded-middle right
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08:51:27 <kmc> "My Name Is Skrillex (Skrillex Remix)" by Skrillex
08:51:47 <Bike> i want to insult someone by telling them that their actions are poorly conveyed
08:53:57 <Bike> maybe it's me whose actions are poorly conveyed though
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09:39:01 <shachaf> «Once upon a time two boys found a cake. One of them said: “Splendid! I will eat the cake.” The other one said: “No, that is not fair! We found the cake together, and we should share and share alike; half for you and half for me.” The first boy said, “No, I should have the whole cake!” The second said, “No, we should share and share alike; half for you and half for me.” The first said, “No, I want the whole cake.” The ...
09:39:07 <shachaf> ... second said, “No, let us share it half and half.” Along came an adult who said: “Gentlemen, you shouldn’t fight about this; you should compromise. Give him three quarters of the cake.”»
09:39:57 <FreeFull> xkcd said we should compromise between pi and tau, and use 1.5pi
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09:59:56 <mroman> I'm actually all for Tau
10:00:43 <mroman> those pi-guys already won the fight.
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10:38:33 <FreeFull> Radius is more fundamental than diameter, although diameter is easier to measure in the real world
10:38:48 <FreeFull> Mathematics shouldn't be decided by the real world
10:38:59 <oerjan> (it might need context)
10:47:53 <FreeFull> oerjan: Heheh, she sure knows how to get things done
10:50:52 <oerjan> i'm more worried about clippy, he seems to have constructed a perverted zeroth law so might start harming humans.
10:51:11 <FreeFull> I am wondering how she's supposed to get out of an arctic compound
10:51:41 <oerjan> tricky. but sam should show up eventually.
10:51:52 <FreeFull> What will Sam do about the cold?
10:52:06 <FreeFull> Hopefully not something involving flamethrowers
10:52:13 <oerjan> something utterly ridiculous but effective, i expect
10:52:55 <FreeFull> People who don't read freefall have no idea what we're talking about
10:56:09 <FreeFull> Sam + Florence has proven itself to be a world-shaking combo
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11:59:18 <ion> ‘Director of the NSA Gen. Keith Alexander said on “60 Minutes” Sunday that […] people need to be held accountable for their actions.’ http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/17/dod-official-snowden-stole-everything-literally-everything/
12:09:02 <mroman> I recently read that a Boy who esentially drove over some people has been found not very guilty due to him "being rich and his parents did not teach him that actions have consequences therefore he could not have known better"
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13:10:00 <fizzie> There was also the fund manager who ran over a cyclist and avoided charges because getting convicted would "have some pretty serious job implications for someone in Mr. Erzinger’s profession".
13:10:10 <fizzie> Ran over and fled the scene, that is.
13:10:24 <fizzie> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/08/wealthy-fund-manager-avoids-felony-charges-running-cyclist/
13:11:27 <fizzie> (The vague logic is that he can afford to pay restitution only if he doesn't lose his job.)
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13:46:28 <Taneb> Today's Freefall is great :)
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13:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover> freefall continues to be not furry at all, nosiree, i see
13:52:38 <FreeFull> It has one anthropomorphic wolf
13:56:40 <boily> good Québec morning!
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13:57:07 <metasepia> CYQB 231330Z 07013G22KT 3SM -SNSG BR DRSN FEW008 OVC029 M09/M11 A3008 RMK SF2SC6 SLP191
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14:04:14 <Taneb> Any one have any advice regarding translating some Haskell code that relies on StateT (WriterT []) into Python?
14:06:53 <Taneb> I kind of wrote myself into a hole with that
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14:32:18 <FreeFull> Why are you translating it into Python?
14:33:06 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/97433
14:33:18 <Taneb> FreeFull, it's for a competition that has to be written in Python
14:33:50 <Taneb> I think in Haskell
14:34:06 <Taneb> If I had any idea how to write this in Python, I would have written it in Python
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16:00:43 <mroman> I could maybe help you
16:01:09 <mroman> but that's beyond my Haskell knowledge
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17:41:02 <boily> `relcome Edward___
17:41:07 <HackEgo> Edward___: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:41:41 <Edward___> And thanks! How to I reserve this name, so I'm not a noob every time I log on?
17:41:48 <boily> do we have an Italian `relcome?
17:44:43 <Edward___> Also, I don't think an Italian welcome would be of much worth to me, I know far too little ;)
17:44:57 <atriq> bonjourno, Edward___
17:46:07 <atriq> (I don't speak Italian, I'm afraid)
17:48:22 <boily> as always, someone on Earth is partaking in a delicious fternooner.
17:48:56 <atriq> boily: four simultaneous fternooners on a single rotation of the fternooner cube
17:50:59 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: I'm debugging the code..
17:54:42 <Edward___> So I'm trying to get that figured out
17:55:29 <LinearInterpol> A real challenge is to never use GDB until it compiles cleanly with -Wall -Werror --pedantic -std=c89
17:59:40 <Edward___> Is there a special end of line marker?
18:00:00 <Edward___> My code isn't properly reading the file, throwing an error when it hits the end of a line, before going to the next.
18:02:31 <Edward___> Man. I can't type today. Need coffee.
18:02:46 <Slereah_> Doesn't ASCII have a specific EOF character?
18:02:50 <Slereah_> Like in the control characters
18:02:58 <Edward___> I'm pretty sure you can just use EOF
18:03:55 <Edward___> But I may be wrong. Just started using C
18:04:37 <fizzie> The standard C macro EOF, and the ASCII control character EOF don't have all that much to do with each other.
18:05:35 <fizzie> I think some Windows context (streams open in text mode?) treats the ASCII EOF character as an actual end-of-file.
18:06:45 <Edward___> Once again, haven't had coffee yet.
18:06:53 <fizzie> Hrm, I guess the actual official ASCII name for ^Z is "SUB", but it's pretty often called EOF anyway.
18:07:38 <LinearInterpol> traditionally, anyway. Microsoft has alternate EOL chars.
18:08:14 <fizzie> If you're reading a text stream in C, it will translate whatever line-ending mechanism the system uses to what '\n' evaluates to.
18:09:54 <fizzie> (It doesn't need to be a particular character at all. I think at least VMS had a more record-structured standard text file format.
18:11:03 <Edward___> If I'm printing a printf statement onto a file, to print a character...
18:11:30 <Edward___> does fprintf(outf,"printf(\"\%c\",*ptr);\n");
18:11:59 <Edward___> I tried putchar, but that didn't work.
18:12:02 <fizzie> But fprintf(outf,"printf(\"%%c\",*ptr);\n"); would.
18:13:04 <fizzie> (You can't escape the % with a \, because \ is a string-literal-level construct, while you want to affect the behaviour of printf, which doesn't see the backslashes at all.)
18:13:12 <Edward___> Hm, same output as putchar. I need to do some work with data types...
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18:14:12 <fizzie> printf("%c", x) should be pretty close to putchar(x), yes.
18:14:35 <Edward___> I'm getting obscure symbols, and not the letters I want.
18:15:13 <fizzie> Incidentally, since you don't have any actual formatting going on, fputs("printf(\"%c\",*ptr);\n", outf); would've been a slightly easier way to write that printf statement.
18:15:36 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think, why the obscure symbols?
18:15:36 <fungot> fizzie: the whole point is that they are all delicately different languages so no surprise prolly does several tests starting saturday.
18:17:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:18:49 <fizzie> (Hard to say much more than that without any further details.)
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18:19:57 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: I'm getting "r????2?????3(something weird), when it should say "Hello World"
18:20:10 <Edward___> does this have to do with text encoding? or just something wrong with data types.
18:20:29 <boily> Edward___: you're communicating with the Elder Ones. nothing to worry about.
18:21:42 <shachaf> Edward___: Your nick is really awful. :-( Can you pick something not so underscorey?
18:21:48 <Edward___> Okay one sec, I'll have to log off really quickly.
18:21:58 <Edward___> shachaf: and yes, I'll change it in a bit ;)
18:21:59 <shachaf> Reading a conversation between you and LinearInterpol especially is painful.
18:22:16 <fizzie> shachaf: I think you have to blame three other Edwards for that.
18:22:21 -!- Edward___ has quit (Quit: "One second...").
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18:23:14 <Edward___> It didn't ask for my password upon logging in...
18:23:49 <kmc> http://livegrep.com/search/linux?q=\b_________[a-z]
18:23:54 <kmc> typeof(*p) *_________p1 = (typeof(*p)*__force )ACCESS_ONCE(p);
18:24:01 <Bike> https://bitmonica.com meanwhile, in r bitcoin
18:24:22 <fizzie> (There's an edward, edward_ and edward__ already; hence the three underscores.)
18:24:49 <kmc> Bike: wait what is this even
18:25:37 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: http://pastebin.com/VaJjGJGb
18:26:18 <Edward___> Okay, how do I effectively...log in...
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18:28:30 <elliott> is this literally just a pyramid scheme
18:28:45 <shachaf> i think it's just a ponzi scheme
18:28:55 <kmc> maybe it's a fonzie scheme
18:29:07 <elliott> ~$97k has been invested in this... thing
18:29:08 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: someone hacked a site i use to redirect to it
18:29:08 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
18:29:20 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: reliable business here
18:30:42 <Bike> and yes, it's sexay kim possible art straight from deviantart
18:30:42 <Edward___> Okay, what's the command for changing nicks? One last time, promise.
18:30:43 <shachaf> Bike: p. sure that means you have to invest to get your site back
18:30:52 <Bike> Edward___: /nick
18:31:11 <fizzie> Edward___: You don't initialize your array in the generated C code.
18:31:21 -!- Edward___ has changed nick to Edwardz.
18:31:32 <shachaf> It should start with a lowercase letter.
18:31:39 <fizzie> Edwardz: So it will contain random garbage, and after doing the increments and decrements specified by the brainfuck code, it will be some other random garbage.
18:31:41 <Edwardz> fizzie: I was following the Wiki page for Brainf**k translation. I'll change that.
18:31:52 <fizzie> Edwardz: char array[100] = {0}; will work.
18:31:54 <shachaf> Your nick, I mean. That's how nicks work.
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18:32:18 <Edwardz> I like "Edwardz" because there are others. I'm the last.
18:32:53 <fizzie> LinearInterpol: No, I don't think I would. Why would you?
18:32:58 <shachaf> Yes, but "edward", "edward_", "edward__" all have a lowercase e in their nick.
18:34:07 <shachaf> Lowercase is how it goes here.
18:34:33 <fizzie> Edwardz: array[100] = {0} is quite a different thing than ptr={0}.
18:35:04 <Bike> http://datenform.de/forgot-your-password.html also
18:35:11 <elliott> shachaf: stop making stuff up about nicks
18:36:00 <LinearInterpol> fprintf(outf,"char array[100]={0};\nchar *ptr=array;\n");
18:36:21 <zzo38> I think it doesn't matter lowercase or uppercase, but, it is case insensitive due to the specification of IRC.
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18:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1tijj6/paul_krugman_disses_bitcoin_again/ce8dfsv
18:39:06 <Edwardz> LinearInterpol: thanks much!
18:39:18 <Edwardz> I need to remember to set to {0} if I want it at 0...
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18:39:31 <Edwardz> fizzie: Thanks to you, too!
18:39:37 <LinearInterpol> Edwardz: bear in mind that that notation is only valid in c99.
18:39:41 <Edwardz> thanks to the esolang community ;)
18:40:03 <Bike> damn establishment shills
18:40:32 <Edwardz> What would be the new equivalent
18:40:41 <ion> Cool, I can investigate an InvestigationTarget. http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/451782616472490608/1B00D268228AA5AD8C9E9343F793E5A3A12204BA/
18:40:51 <Edwardz> Oh, I thought there was a newer
18:41:40 <fizzie> No, I mean, what's "that notation"?
18:41:51 <Edwardz> http://pastebin.com/DNVkKshB
18:42:09 <kmc> i think the struct initializer = { .foo = 3, .bar = 4 } is new though
18:42:13 <Edwardz> before I clean up the code a bit and make it prettier, lighterweight, and add the ',' operator for brainfuck
18:42:20 <kmc> it's v. convenient b/c it sets the rest to 0
18:42:22 <fizzie> Compound literals are a thing involving {} that are new in C99, and designated initializers too, but basic array initialization is old as bones.
18:42:31 <ion> fizzie: The one C99 change i’m probably using the most is for (foo x = …; …; …) etc.
18:44:02 <fizzie> The code is C99 due to mixed declarations and code, but there's nothing C99 about the initializers.
18:44:22 <fizzie> And not even that in the generated code.
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18:47:07 <LinearInterpol> fizzie: You are.. correct. Array initializers are in C89, huh. Thought they were added in C99 along with struct initializers.
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18:49:36 <fizzie> Struct initializers are C89 too, just the designators are new.
18:50:00 <shachaf> remember that sometimes 0 is really -1 !!!
18:50:15 <shachaf> wait the only example i can think of is in c++
18:51:32 <Edwardz> I know nothing of c++... Only a bit of time though.
18:53:01 <fizzie> "A bit in time saves nine," they say.
18:54:09 <Edwardz> LinearInterpol: How would I turn this into an interpreter? Compile the code, then run the make and ./ commands?
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18:55:19 <Edwardz> So that all you do is run the program, without needing to do anything else?
18:55:54 <LinearInterpol> Replace your "run file" function's code with what you'd generate.
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18:59:00 <Edwardz> But for now, off to hike Stone Mountain, y'all enjoy yourselves!
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19:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> all the questions are just 'how big is this boring number', not 'how well can you illustrate this ridiculous scenario'
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19:26:07 <zzo38> Some C99 features are also available in GNU89 mode, although some work a bit differently, and some features are different.
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19:30:40 <zzo38> I happen to like zero-length arrays, which is a GNU feature, and I don't like the flexible arrays.
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19:33:29 <zzo38> Zero-length arrays are a useful feature, mostly to use at the end of a structure definition, although you don't have to; it can occasionally be useful in the middle or something else instead.
19:34:02 <zzo38> I also think it is more sensible and doesn't require an exception to anything in order to implement.
19:34:28 <zzo38> It is more mathematically elegant.
19:34:47 <zzo38> GNU also supports zero-length structures, which is also just as sensible too, in my opinion.
19:39:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Those behave differently in GNU C and GNU C++, don't they?
19:40:25 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I think that is correct. The way they work in C++ is no good in my opinion but if you program in C++ then that is what you use.
19:41:27 <LinearInterpol> shachaf: Since structures are effectively classes with their members set to public by default, empty structures act as empty classes, which is defined by the standard last I checked.
19:42:26 <LinearInterpol> C99 (iirc) was standard that fully defined empty structures for C.
19:44:16 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Unicode_Font_Initiative wait, so they have this, but multiocular o is official?
19:44:26 <LinearInterpol> It's been.. a while since I've looked at C99 or C89's standard.
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19:51:06 <zzo38> I have written what I would consider improvement to C standards; these improvements do not require any runtime support (except for some new numeric types, which *might* need it but can be emulated if needed), but much more things are done with macros now.
19:52:41 <zzo38> Including one thing that is kind of like C++ templates, but actually very differently.
19:56:00 <zzo38> I use different programming languages for different purposes. Yes, Forth is good too.
20:00:52 <mroman> https://bitbucket.org/mroman_/cobohl
20:01:01 <mroman> ^- that's what I'm gonna use in the future ;)
20:02:58 <zzo38> mroman: Might it be better if you also need quotation marks around the AUTHOR and NAME strings?
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20:20:32 <mroman> I'll just parse till end of line :)
20:20:44 <mroman> but I'm probably gonna switch to writing a haskell interpreter for it
20:20:47 <mroman> that's probably faster
20:20:57 <mroman> and I get garbage collection for free
20:21:31 <mroman> and ENTRYPOINT probably belongs into MODULE DIVISION
20:23:37 <mroman> the second name will have a new line in it
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20:40:32 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia. still vacationing under the sun?
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21:04:39 <oerjan> mroman: i think the fashionable thing is like http://xkcd.com/327/ hth
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21:22:28 <boily> uhm. is it me, or is CAO currently down?
21:22:48 <boily> it's me. can't type a simple 5-letter work.
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21:24:02 <boily> crawl.akrasiac.org.
21:26:14 <boily> yes. I'm an addict, and I accept that fact.
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21:30:15 <boily> I SELF PROCLAIM MY ADDICTION!
21:30:19 <boily> (also, I am sane.)
21:30:38 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
21:31:04 <ais523> I wonder if that's in the original INTERCAL manual
21:31:15 <ais523> err, the C-INTERCAL Revised manual
21:31:24 <ais523> one of the revisions was adding Alice in Wonderland quotes at the start of every chapter
21:31:28 <ais523> and that one seems to fit
21:31:53 <coppro> ais523: it's in the introduction
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22:17:27 <mauke> `run echo $'LET a = 0 + b' | ploki -MO=Deparse
22:18:59 <mauke> `run echo $'LETa+=c+@NOTc\na_"\nLETc b+@NOTb\nLETb a\nIF' | ploki
22:19:01 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
22:20:30 <mauke> `run echo $'LETa+=c+@NOTc\na_"\nLETc b+@NOTb\nLETb a\nIF' | ploki -MO=Deparse
22:20:32 <HackEgo> FOR x0 LET a += b + @NOT(b) \ WUNT (a _ "\n") \ LET b c + @NOT(c) \ LET c a \ NEXT x0
22:29:25 <ion> shachaf: http://heh.fi/tmp/LATIN_SMALL_LIGATURE_IJ.png
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01:29:22 <shachaf> kmc: http://slbkbs.org/ramsale.jpg
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01:40:44 <kmc> shachaf: haha
01:42:25 <Bike> they have a different number each time..
01:43:09 <ais523> sure it's the same person?
01:43:32 <Bike> well they have similar IPs too
01:43:34 <Bike> and uh, behavior
01:43:49 <ais523> it could be the JM Society
01:44:02 <ais523> which has a computer lab that people use for going into IRC channels and saying hi
01:44:08 <ais523> with members known only by their numbers
01:44:39 <ais523> I wasn't actually being serious
01:44:44 <ais523> but it's a possibility, at least
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02:11:50 <shachaf> kmc: you know when people make burrito jokes and then it turns out they were only saying them ironically so it's not actually annoying
02:12:54 <shachaf> such a relief to find that out
02:13:49 <kmc> i know right
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06:07:01 <Bike> oh hey, turing got pardoned.
06:08:01 <kmc> living anachronism issues 60 year late non-apology
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06:10:40 <shachaf> an apology later followed by a pardon
06:11:34 <kmc> oh i only saw the text of the pardon, which isn't much of an apology
06:12:16 <shachaf> well the apology was a few years ago
06:13:29 <shachaf> there was also http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/feb/07/alan-turing-pardon-lord-mcnally-lord-sharkey-computers
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06:18:08 <Bike> 'hullaballoo in the UK' seems like a bit of a downgrade
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06:24:46 <zzo38> I played Yomi cards today; I won despite having only one hit point left (my opponent had ten).
06:26:02 <coppro> I have not played Yomi
06:26:07 <coppro> I have, however, played Mao with Yomi decks
06:26:37 * Bike gives coppro a penalty card
06:28:55 <zzo38> coppro: You have? Any card game using the standard 52 card deck + jokers can be played with Yomi decks, so that is OK too
06:29:50 <zzo38> I thought he would surely play an attack, and of speed 1.0; I thought I should definitely play a dodge, but I didn't have any dodge, so I thought I should play a 0.6 speed attack, but that is a dragon card and I don't have a dragon form, so I played what I considered best card that I would have, which is 1.2 which might be too slow but might not be, and it ended up being fast enough to beat their 2.2 speed card.
06:30:10 <kmc> I thought I should definitely play a doge, but I didn't have any doge
06:30:10 <zzo38> My card caused exactly ten damage, as it turned out. (And if the speed was equal, it would be ended in a tie.)
06:30:43 <mauke> are you aware of the dogscape?
06:31:51 <zzo38> I don't know how common tie games are in Yomi.
06:32:29 <zzo38> I think normally it may be played whoever caused more damage, whoever hit first, or "sudden death" is played, but I prefer, the tie stands if both players have 0 or less current HP at the end of the turn.
06:32:32 <shachaf> Invent the game called "Doge - The Card Game" and "Professional Doge of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
06:33:12 <zzo38> shachaf: You can try to make up such card games if you like to.
06:33:30 <shachaf> Are you sure they're card games?
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06:52:05 <zzo38> The standard rules also say that in case both players run out of cards in their draw pile and in their hand, whoever has more hit points remaining wins. Such a thing is extremely unlikely. But in such a case, I prefer that the game just continues normally (which usually results in a draw, but if one side is Argagarg then they win; if both sides are, whoever has more hit points wins, unless they differ by no more than one, in which case it is a tie)
06:53:41 <kmc> copumpkin: привет товарищ
06:54:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: it's unbreakable so you might as well give up
06:54:54 <shachaf> just imagine it was on pastebin.com and presented by a rude person who kept changing nicks
06:54:59 <kmc> криптография
06:55:07 <kmc> shachaf: military grade encryption
06:55:30 <shachaf> is that what you learn in military grade school
06:55:42 <Bike> remember that translator guy who referred to russian as a code in strange symbols. such arrogance, wow
06:55:50 <shachaf> copumpkin: did i mention i bought the hott book
06:56:02 <kmc> MDZhB 24 664 NAYeMNICA 34 21 29 93 priyom
06:56:02 <copumpkin> it's probably a newer edition than mine :(
06:56:10 <shachaf> i waited until they stopped changing it before ordering it
06:56:16 <shachaf> so it's the sep 20 edition
06:56:27 <shachaf> also i got it in 99% paperback
06:56:30 <kmc> Bike: hike
06:56:41 <kmc> 99% paper 1% undetectible poison??
06:56:55 <shachaf> well, as opposed to 1% hardcover like copumpkin can afford
06:57:04 <shachaf> i know it's print-on-demand but it looks and feels just like a real book
06:57:10 <shachaf> but it doesn't smell like a new book :'(
06:57:12 <kmc> print-on-polite-request
06:57:21 <copumpkin> I was confused by the 99% thing too
06:58:12 <copumpkin> I probably should've slept on the plane
06:58:19 <copumpkin> but there were too many obnoxious sleep-detractors
06:59:15 <copumpkin> I left the ticket-buying to the last minute
06:59:26 <copumpkin> and aeroflot ended up being cheapest
06:59:57 <shachaf> i once flew sjc->sea via slc
07:00:20 <shachaf> and also sjc->jfk through lax
07:02:39 <kmc> honolulu to moscow via hong kong
07:02:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: should i read the hott book or the Illuminatus! trilogy first
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08:01:24 <Sgeo> http://www.kogan.com/au/blog/new-internet-explorer-7-tax/
08:02:53 <kmc> jesus that site has like 5 overlay ads
08:03:30 <Bike> the article is about an overlay ad.
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08:04:06 <Bike> petition for a news site that only reports on itself
08:04:23 <Sgeo> Can't get the IE7 overlay to appear in Chrome spoofing IE7
08:04:26 <Sgeo> But still getting the tax
08:05:22 <Sgeo> No tax for IE6
08:05:39 <Bike> ie6 is a stable, modern browser
08:41:01 <zzo38> If a lot of people make up a lot more levels for Attribute Zone game, then I can make an analysis to figure out how to make a good Huffman encoding and RLE to compress the levels.
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09:17:48 <fizzie> IDGI. I've disabled the "fast restart" according to all instructions, and do a "shutdown", but this thing's still all "Windows is hibernated, refused to mount. The NTFS partition is in an unsafe state. Please resume and shutdown Windows fully (no hibernation or fast restarting), or mount the volume read-only with the 'ro' mount option."
09:38:35 <mroman> http://codepad.org/81DO3BJd <- any syntax suggestions?
09:39:06 <mroman> FOR pushes an element of a list to the stack, executes the contained block and then repeats with the next element
09:39:33 <mroman> EACH is the same, but it works directly on the list (i.e it collects the top of the stack)
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09:40:39 <mroman> maybe merge PARAMs on one line ...
09:45:18 <zzo38> I think it is OK like that
09:54:44 <ion> shachaf: How does one pay $² 3000?
09:55:58 <mroman> What's the surface area of a dollar?
10:06:24 <fizzie> Where did that 0.01032256 cm^2 figure come from?
10:07:05 <fizzie> (It sounds incredibly unlikely for a dollar bill; and very font-and-size-specific for a dollar symbol.)
10:07:11 <mroman> according to the intarweb that's the surface area of a dollar bill
10:07:18 <fizzie> Well, I'm pretty sure it's not.
10:07:37 <fizzie> Because 0.01 cm^2 is approximately a one-millimetre-per-side square.
10:08:18 <fizzie> It seems to be in square metres.
10:08:33 <mroman> I used google to convert inches into meters
10:08:49 <mroman> 16 square inches to square meters
10:09:02 <mroman> 16 inches would be 0.4m
10:09:29 <fizzie> Given that it's almost 2014, you could've just asked W|A, you know.
10:09:54 <fizzie> "surface area of dollar" -> "Input interpretation: [ US 1 dollar banknote | area ]" + results in square millimeters, centimeters, meters, feet and inches.
10:10:32 <mroman> Given that it's almost 2014 some countries could've switched to using the metric system .
10:13:02 <mroman> then I wasn't off by much?
10:13:27 <fizzie> Just four orders of magnitude.
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10:19:00 <mroman> 10:57 < mroman> 0.01032256 cm^2
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11:33:21 <oerjan> merry almost-but-not-quite-officially christmas
11:33:52 <lambdabot> Local time for b_jonas is Tue Dec 24 12:33:51 2013
11:34:17 <oerjan> it's like officially 5PM here
11:45:01 <oerjan> this is fewer than i expected https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Countries_that_do_not_recognize_Christmas_as_Public_Holiday.png
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11:46:30 <oerjan> your cloak fools no one, mr. cust765.
11:46:50 <ion> wat http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2013/12/wired-world-2014/android-becomes-the-new-linux
11:47:31 <ais523> nah, Android is the new Windows
11:48:37 <oerjan> maybe they should pull a stallman and insist they call it Android/Linux
11:49:14 <ais523> good hardware support for its platform, supported by the widest range of developers, somewhat buggy but unusably so, and normally comes preinstalled by default, except by Apple
11:50:24 <oerjan> i think you're missing a "not" in there
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11:52:03 <oerjan> oh no they're unclogging us
11:52:08 <Taneb> I think Linux is the new linux
11:52:32 <Taneb> By which I mean, nothing's particularly changed.
11:52:45 <ais523> if you're looking for the Linux of mobile phones, I'd go for Meego or something like that
11:52:50 <Taneb> I suppose linux gaming is slightly more feasible
11:52:55 <Taneb> Than it was 5 years ago
11:53:11 <oerjan> wtf is that squeeking sound the neighbors keep making
11:53:15 <ais523> more than just "slightly", since Valve decided that they were going to support it
11:53:33 <ais523> having a major developer target an OS improves its chances significantly
11:54:09 <ais523> I mean, there was always some basis of support for it from game developers
11:54:17 <ais523> Bioware, for instance, released some of their games for Linux
11:54:27 <ais523> but the Linux versions were always kind-of obscure
11:55:13 <ais523> (Bioware's official method of buying the Linux port of Neverwinter Nights was "buy a CD of the windows version, send us the CD key, then you can download it from our website; if you can read the disk then that speeds things up because you won't have to download as much info, but it doesn't matter if you can't"
11:55:29 <ais523> what spelling does the "D" of "CD" use?
12:28:50 <fizzie> I've seen the c variant more often.
12:30:16 <fizzie> IEC 60908 is titled "Audio recording - Compact disc digital audio system".
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12:30:46 <fizzie> (And I remember doing the NWN Linux thing, probably by downloading the whole gigabyte-or-two client.)
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13:09:59 <Taneb> Just did that US dialect quize
13:10:17 <Taneb> It narrowed me down to Boston, LA, or Honolulu
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13:22:45 <oerjan> <fizzie> Given that it's almost 2014, you could've just asked W|A, you know. <-- or he could have given google the right units to convert between.
13:23:45 <oerjan> oh hm i'm not using my brain. nothing new there.
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13:24:54 * oerjan somehow wishes webchat would use a different character for joins and quits, like irssi does.
13:27:48 * oerjan wonders if his touchpad is broken again since it won't scroll; then notices he's at end of page.
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14:08:31 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Profunctor p) => AnIso s t a b -> p t (f s) -> p b (f a)
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18:15:37 <Taneb> Is it bad that the Doctor Who christmas special has become my favourite thing about Christmas?
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18:17:49 <ais523> from my point of view, the TV around Christmas tends to be even worse than normal
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18:35:56 <quintopia> oerjan: not math. i just tried to edit Brainfuck_constants from my phone
18:36:17 <quintopia> but totally broke the formatting in the display version
18:36:40 <quintopia> can you fix it? and figure out wtf my phone is doing?
18:41:38 <ion> The creator of SMBC is livedrawing requests http://www.twitch.tv/zachweinersmith
18:43:30 <oerjan> there are characters there that cut and paste as spaces, but which are interpreted wrong.
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18:45:13 <oerjan> Oh, you've also not put space at the beginning of some lines at all.
18:48:04 <oerjan> anyway i copied it via vim and back, and that fixed the problem. i also added spaces you'd missed.
18:49:00 <oerjan> A circumflex sounds like interpreting UTF-8 as latin-1.
18:49:17 <oerjan> fungot does that, btw.
18:49:18 <fungot> oerjan: caught a java.lang.classnotfoundexception! fnord, glassbot is still alive."(_o)o.? have never used haskell, of course
18:50:57 <oerjan> quintopia: that's the difference between fungot's ^ord and HackEgo's `ord, the latter uses proper utf-8.
18:50:57 <fungot> oerjan: if you are i guess. just check what directions recursive calls can move them
18:51:16 <oerjan> but fungot's is useful for seeing the actual bytes.
18:51:17 <fungot> oerjan: then again, " run delegate" can also be flipped ( the starred stuff) and still i think 5 minutes is more than a listing of existing scheme implementations? any non-toy r5rs one
18:52:06 <quintopia> oerjan: while you're there, you can probably move the 45306 subsection up to the "greater than 256" section
18:52:28 <oerjan> i was considering it yesterday...
18:52:36 <quintopia> i would, but i'd break it again probably
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18:59:28 <fizzie> fungot: Why can't you UTF-8, anyway? Is it TOO MUCH TO ASK?
18:59:29 <fungot> fizzie: do you compile it? :p. ugh i need to figure out
18:59:42 <fizzie> Well, as long as you're trying.
19:00:01 <quintopia> fizzie: he's saying you have to compile support for utf-8 in!
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19:04:40 <fungot> FireFly: mikä on extortion business or the like
19:04:53 <FireFly> Not a very merry christmas for mikä then
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19:11:08 <fizzie> fungot: How do I compile in UTF-8 support?
19:11:09 <fungot> fizzie: it also depends on defmacro, i was about to do that in my scheme window manager originally based on next. so far i've received several out of office!"
19:11:20 <fizzie> fungot: It sounds kinda difficult. Why don't you do it?
19:11:20 <fungot> fizzie: i don't suppose it lets you pass a list
19:11:36 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, well, in that case. I'll put it on the list.
19:11:36 <fungot> fizzie: i'll probably ask on the plt mailing list is any value that is a *very* irritating thing... all this reading about xaml makes me sick
19:11:57 <fizzie> Poor bot, forced to read about XAML all day long.
19:12:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, how could fungot even have the chance, while receiving several out of office?
19:12:25 <fungot> shachaf: an even shorter forth quine: http://rafb.net/ fnord iffi so far
19:14:13 <int-e> fungot almost tricked me into visiting that uri
19:14:13 <fungot> int-e: i'll try that right now
19:15:32 <shachaf> fungot: do you have first-class support for irritating values
19:15:32 <fungot> shachaf: looking at your fnord thing on your desk
19:15:43 <shachaf> fungot: hey don't look at that
19:15:43 <fungot> shachaf: jao: you are probably right. i meant because the authors aren't here. you only need to take an example sxml tree and an example of taking a canonical esolang ( bf). that effectively prevents any kind of url
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20:11:29 <fizzie> I think I tried to filter out "foo:" attribution lines.
20:11:39 <fizzie> Purely based on the fact that it doesn't usually say those.
20:11:48 <fizzie> But perhaps that was a case of "foo: bar: content here".
20:12:09 <ais523> yeah, I was wondering if it was a double reverse-attribution
20:12:16 <fizzie> shachaf: Please post a picture of your fnord thing on your desk.
20:12:22 <ais523> it's not an attribution, that would be "<fizzie> message here"
20:13:01 <fizzie> I was thinking of some other word.
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20:20:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: metar: not found
20:20:51 <oerjan> step 1: have metasepia here.
20:21:09 <Bike> step 2: hakkarrkrrrankbanpiedanangggcckladnkra
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21:10:49 <zzo38> I keep getting a ping timeout?
21:11:01 <ais523> zzo38: yes, 240 seconds was the last one
21:11:18 <zzo38> Do you know what is the problem?
21:21:32 <zzo38> I tried changing my IDLETIMER setting from 225 to 200 in case that helps
21:23:49 <mroman> zzo38: There are probably some problems on freenode right now
21:23:54 <mroman> I had a disconnect today too
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21:25:20 <oerjan> i haven't had a disconnect from freenode per se in a long time, afair
21:25:59 <oerjan> (presently i'm on webchat because the linux server i usually connect _via_ disconnected, but that's different.)
21:26:37 <oerjan> of course i usually use a fixed freenode server though (a swedish one iirc)
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21:47:40 <quintopia> i wonder if boily will be in here someday soon
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21:54:50 <Bike> happy fucking christmas everybody
21:57:17 <kmc> happy christing fuckmas
21:57:36 <kmc> it's not xmas yet though???
21:57:38 <kmc> for most of this channel
21:57:44 <shachaf> <#haskell> when trying to make something as simple as Conway's game of life, I shouldn't have to choose between readable and fast
21:57:48 <Bike> well it is in oceania or whatever right
21:57:50 <oerjan> wolfram alpha disappoints http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=mass+of+christ
21:59:22 <oklopol> finland celebrates the day before christmas more than the actual christmas day
22:00:06 <oklopol> i tried to choose a random moment close to the average of the two
22:01:10 <oklopol> oerjan: do those countries you linked celebrate something near His Mass though?
22:01:33 <oklopol> i guess if some work through it then no
22:02:03 <oerjan> well the ones colored lighter supposedly had some celebrations, just not official iirc?
22:02:58 <oerjan> also taiwan and pakistan accidentally have other celebrations on the same day.
22:03:48 <oklopol> well a priori i'm inclined to think it's not completely accidental
22:04:17 <oerjan> did you even read the description.
22:04:23 <oklopol> because aren't things like hanukkah and all sorts of other stuff also nearby, people celebrate the same day and eventually come up with different reasons
22:04:34 <oklopol> the a priori is because i have no idea what you are talking about
22:04:53 <Bike> it's not like hanukkah is about presents and trees. it's just that consumerism is all consuming
22:05:46 <oerjan> oklopol: taiwan celebrates its constitution day, pakistan the birthday of their (non-religious) founder
22:06:06 <oklopol> those _might_ be coincidental
22:07:35 <oklopol> hanukkah is, if i understood correctly, about the end of some invasion or something
22:07:53 <kmc> wasn't hanukkah a pretty obscure third-tier holiday before american jews started emphasizing it to participate in the ~~holiday season~~~
22:08:31 <oklopol> that would fit my "all holidays are actually christmass" theory nicely
22:08:46 <kmc> all holidays are actually roman solstice holiday
22:09:24 <Bike> happy saturnalia everyone, here is your lube and torch
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22:23:23 <Sgeo> (>>= repeat) == cycle?
22:53:53 <oerjan> > (repeat () >>) "test"
22:53:54 <lambdabot> "testtesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttes...
22:54:48 <oerjan> > (join . repeat) "test"
22:54:49 <lambdabot> "testtesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttesttes...
22:55:08 <Bike> well i'm convinced
22:55:48 <kmc> :t (>>= repeat)
22:56:02 <oerjan> > (>>= repeat) "test" -- just to make it clear
22:56:03 <lambdabot> "ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt...
22:56:28 <Bike> it's an ininite number of t's followed by an infinite number of e's, etc, right?
22:57:04 <oerjan> sadly haskell lists do not go beyond omega index.
22:57:58 <kmc> I think there is a datatype for transfinite ordinals somewhere on hackage
22:58:30 <oerjan> i'm not sure you could make a working monad instance for ordinal-indexed lists, though.
22:59:13 <Bike> i'm talking "''conceptually»»
22:59:15 <kmc> ("but what about cisfinite ordinals")
22:59:45 <oerjan> because you'd have to do infinite computation to work out which ordinal a part of the result ends up in
22:59:50 <Bike> die cis scum *shoots 7 in the face*
23:00:06 <kmc> well, 7 8 9
23:00:10 <kmc> so I think he had it coming
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23:01:31 <Bike> what interpretation of quantum mechanics did schrödinger go for, since he wasn't a copenhagen kinda guy
23:02:53 <oerjan> hm reminds me of that relevant shtetl-optimized thread i should check for new comments
23:03:23 <oerjan> (http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1622)
23:04:50 <oerjan> 'But on the other hand, Einstein and Schrödinger were clearer in realizing that you couldn’t restrict QM to “microscopic phenomena” only using nothing but mountains of verbiage about complementarity—that once you adopted QM consistently, there would be no inherent limit to the size or spatial range of superpositions.'
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23:07:18 <Bike> so you're saying he was basically deepack chopra
23:07:52 <oerjan> (it doesn't answer the question properly though)
23:09:16 <oerjan> "Bohr and Heisenberg both had the properties of [...] (4) generally, being a lot more ponderous and obscure than not only their successors, but even contemporaries like Schrödinger and Dirac."
23:09:18 <Bike> he wrote a book called "The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics". maybe it's relevant??
23:09:45 <oerjan> so he wasn't the worst, back then
23:10:09 <Bike> the worst of what
23:10:25 <oerjan> well the most deepak chopraish
23:11:25 * oerjan maybe should note he doesn't know much about this beyond what's in that blog thread
23:12:21 <Bike> well, i gues What Is Life was kind of wack.
23:12:32 <Bike> lol physicists.
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01:03:21 <Koen_> lqst qssignement: write q compiler and then an interpreter for some pseudo-asm language used to build "warriors", for a bf-joust like competition
01:03:30 <Koen_> this school is FUN
01:06:10 <Bike> pseudo-ass language
01:07:57 <Koen_> int-e: as you can see it took me no more than four words to switch back to azerty, even though I'm typing in the dark`
01:08:22 <Koen_> (entering password to boot the computer took a few tries though)
01:08:32 <int-e> oh, sorry. I got hooked up on the first word and didn't notice the consistency :)
01:08:41 <oerjan> you cannot prove it wasn't five words
01:09:21 <int-e> (also I'm blissfully unaware of azerty. I have enough trouble with using both qwertz and qwerty)
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01:10:15 <Koen_> azerty is like french for qwerty and oh guess what the punctuation is all wrong
01:10:54 <Koen_> anyway, just wanted to say hi to you guys
01:11:50 <Koen_> and now I`m going back to sleep - I havent had a single free day since it all started sooooo Im gonna enjoy tomorrow a lot
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01:20:43 <Sgeo> If I talk about Cablevision or competitors, I think I'm expected to state that I work for Cablevision, but all opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily that of my employer
01:20:49 <Sgeo> At least on social media websites
01:20:54 <Sgeo> Don't know if IRC is covered
01:21:22 <Sgeo> (I'm not disagreeing with the policy, just not sure how it would apply to chat)
01:21:47 <Bike> cablevision doesn't sound like the name of a company that has opinions
01:26:57 <Koen_> sounds can be deceiving
01:27:18 <kmc> irc is a social media website
01:27:47 <Sgeo> IRC is a social medium, which in most cases can be accessed via some websites
01:28:15 <Sgeo> Maybe I don't need the disclaimer if I see no web client users?
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01:40:58 <Sgeo> "Breaking News: No shots fired"
01:46:45 <Sgeo> ^^ actual headline
01:47:14 <Sgeo> or.. whatever they're called on TV news
01:47:30 <Sgeo> Probably made more sense to people who were watching than people who saw a glimpse
01:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover> the pardon campaign was nothing but tactless pandering to begin with
01:52:33 <Phantom_Hoover> afaik the important part -- the absolution of all gays convicted under those laws -- was quietly implemented years ago
01:53:56 <Phantom_Hoover> the pardon is a deeply unsavoury gesture which implies that turing was just an exception because he was gay but useful
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01:54:20 <elliott> pardoning someone for violating an unjust law is somewhat perverse
01:54:35 <elliott> since it implies special circumstances mean that Turing's being gay was excusable
01:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> someone should disagree so we can have a proper fight over this
01:55:37 <LinearInterpol> I just see it as a sort of useful recognition, I suppose. It's a nice gift to see Turing in the news again.
01:56:32 <Bike> i admit i'm kind of glad every time i see turing in the news at all since he owned
01:57:18 <Bike> is that movie with cumbutler out yet
01:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> look if you want to deride cumberbatch just call him poshfuck
01:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> 'ultimate poshfuck' if there are other poshfucks forcing disambiguation
01:58:24 <Bike> i don't dislike him or anything even he just has an absurd name
01:59:00 <Bike> is he bad/ i seriously don't know, i've never seen anything with him in it
02:00:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9473337/Posh-baiting-may-drive-Benedict-Cumberbatch-to-the-US.html well he's definitely a poshfuck
02:02:01 <Bike> «“I remember being really quite scared at the Twitter thing [a global army of online fans call themselves “Cumberbitches”]» terrifying
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04:51:44 <Bike> now i have a machinegun
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04:56:53 <Sgeo> I don't like having an infinitely large close button on my browser
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10:49:35 <oerjan> <Bike> i don't dislike him or anything even he just has an absurd name <-- itym "cumbersome" hth
10:49:56 * oerjan almost added an extra hth to get around the filter, then remembered he wasn't on irssi
10:50:51 <oerjan> i assume there's no one around today to get the login server i use working again.
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10:53:02 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> I don't like having an infinitely large close button on my browser
10:53:09 <HackEgo> 1147) <Sgeo> I don't like having an infinitely large close button on my browser
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11:22:53 <FreeFull> My browser doesn't have a close button
11:24:04 <oerjan> i guess you are using a window manager without a close button on windows
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11:35:30 <FreeFull> No window decorations whatsoever
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13:24:36 <Taneb> Trivia: when I was pretending to be a rabbi, the actor Mr. Neeson pretended to be my son
13:26:22 <Taneb> And today it is his birthday!
13:28:40 <Taneb> God, imagine if Liam Neeson played my son
13:29:22 <Taneb> Since when is Liam Neeson a "her"/
13:30:09 <Taneb> My godfather was once on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire
13:31:11 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Well, get him <Phantom_Hoover> her! <Taneb> Well, get her <Taneb> Hang on <Taneb> Since when is Liam Neeson a "her"/ <Phantom_Hoover> oh i thought you meant my dad's godmother
13:31:15 <HackEgo> 1148) <Taneb> Well, get him <Phantom_Hoover> her! <Taneb> Well, get her <Taneb> Hang on <Taneb> Since when is Liam Neeson a "her"/ <Phantom_Hoover> oh i thought you meant my dad's godmother
13:31:37 <Taneb> And... my great uncle makes honey?
13:31:53 <Taneb> And my... dad's cousin is in a crime drama?
13:32:15 <Taneb> The Doctor Blake Mysteries
13:38:33 <Koen_> doctor blake? isn't that the fake series from friends?
13:39:16 <Taneb> Koen_, it's also a real series from Australia
13:39:39 <Koen_> australia? isn't that the fake continent?
13:40:02 <Taneb> Koen_, if it's fake then I'm 50% fake
13:40:07 <Taneb> Which I guess is true
13:40:11 <Taneb> So Australia is fake!
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13:46:19 <Koen_> hmmm so I've got a permutation
13:46:34 <Koen_> and I have to output a sequence of instruction to build that permutation
13:47:31 <Koen_> those instructions will affect two dequeues a and b; a is the list to be sorted and b is initially empty
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15:12:13 <oerjan> i was checking that new one for 255
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15:13:01 <oerjan> which makes some of the others obsolete
15:13:08 <boily> good Joyeux Noël morning!
15:13:42 <quintopia> boily i've been working on something for you!
15:14:18 <boily> oerjoyeux noël à toi aussi :D
15:14:46 <boily> joyeux quinoëltopia!
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15:17:46 <quintopia> boily: this has been my main project of the past few days: http://imgur.com/cqSDKci
15:21:27 <boily> you christmassy fiend! :p
15:21:48 <boily> oh right. I should metasepia first.
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15:22:49 <metasepia> CYQB 251500Z 22012KT 25SM FEW020 M18/M21 A3050 RMK SC1 SC TR SLP336
15:24:38 <quintopia> boily: you could have been here. two of your fellow quebecois computer geeks are here.
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15:24:54 <boily> quintopia: bin wéyons don.
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15:25:22 <quintopia> why say it if i can't understand it
15:25:32 <boily> can you transcribe it for them? :D
15:25:36 <quintopia> also, there is nothing that is untranslatable if you try hard enough
15:25:57 <oerjan> > length "+++++[>+++++++<-]>[<+++++++>-]<++++"
15:26:26 <boily> quintopia: uhm... “well we see [emphatic particle]”?
15:27:51 <boily> it's an exclamation of inquiring surprise, denoting scepticism and a desire to know more.
15:29:20 <quintopia> jordan thiboust and his wife(?) cyrielle
15:30:08 <quintopia> he's a game designer at ubisoft (Assassin's Creed 2015) and she's a QAer at a subsidiary of Activision.
15:32:04 <boily> go enjoy the droempiunbilciacn while you can!
15:33:09 <oerjan> it seems to me that the new 2-cell non-wrapping algorithms are sometimes better than the old 3-cell ones...
15:34:21 <oerjan> 248 being the first (last?)
15:34:54 <oerjan> i started copying by hand, but that's not going to be sustainable if this continues.
15:35:13 * oerjan also is lazy, in case someone didn't note.
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15:37:15 <oerjan> boily: your bot is not feeling well
15:38:47 <boily> I now, and it is time to go for me also.
15:39:38 <boily> it is so. I have to resume the ongoing Towerfall tournament my bro and I are undergoing.
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15:48:13 <oerjan> one awkward thing about webchat is that it gives you no direct indication that you've been disconnected, so once it's happened once i get nervous whenever the channel falls silent...
15:50:15 <ais523> yep, that keeps catching ais523_ out too
16:08:10 <nooodl> oh noooo i have to document this esolang
16:08:58 <ais523> I dunno, documentation's the interesting part sometimes
16:09:05 <ais523> btw, merry christmas, all those who celebrate it today
16:09:12 <nooodl> merry christmas ais523 !
16:10:21 <oerjan> merry christmas, all those who _don't_ celebrate it today! *hides behind rock*
16:12:35 <kmc> the set of all christmases that do not celebrate themselves
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17:05:04 <quintopia> thanks ais523 and to you too. i will spend the rest of the day in cars and planes and airports
17:07:00 <quintopia> oerjan: what is the 3-cell algorithm for 248?
17:07:27 <oerjan> there's a whole bunch listed right under the 2-cell one i inserted.
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20:38:31 <zzo38> How do I make a dotted strikeout on a MediaWiki file?
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20:53:10 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't recall seeing dotted strikeouts...
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21:01:10 <Bike> «the holes (called "exploits" in security lingo) »
21:02:24 <oerjan> getting too close to black exploits is very insecure.
21:02:51 <Bike> (http://www.businessinsider.com/security-folks-share-snapchat-hack-2013-12)
21:07:00 <Sgeo> Outlook is telling me I missed a meeting this morning... I'm very distinctly certain I have Christmas day off
21:08:10 <oerjan> you just missed the message yesterday evening that your day off was canceled hth
21:09:20 <ais523> maybe your day off /was/ the meeting
21:09:40 <kmc> the meeting was inside you all along
21:09:51 <kmc> and that's the true meaning of christmas
21:13:08 <oerjan> just before christmas does sound like a shitty time to reveal an exploit.
21:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> doctor who christmas special was godalmighty mess; news at eleven
21:13:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: was it a timey-wimey mess?
21:14:43 <Sgeo> And I got a weird voicemail that must have been intended for someone else
21:16:14 <kmc> was it a hot mess
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21:16:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: It didn't air yet... oh, I guess it aired in England earlier?
21:17:00 <olsner> earlier than in scotland?
21:17:15 <olsner> I thought scotland was in england
21:17:36 <oerjan> i refuse to believe olsner isn't joking
21:17:49 <ais523> I hope olsner isn't joking
21:17:59 <kmc> olsner: right now a huge scottish man is running at you with a claymore
21:18:00 <Sgeo> There's some chart somewhere, but I kind of don't remember it
21:18:20 <Sgeo> And also would have thought that Phantom_Hoover is in England and not Scotland
21:18:24 <kmc> it's not that complicated. until you try to explain jersey and guernsey and shit like that
21:18:36 <ais523> Sgeo: Phantom_Hoover's been well-established to claim to be Scottish
21:18:43 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/uk
21:19:02 <olsner> england and scotland are in the same place on that chart, that's good enough for me
21:19:02 <Sgeo> I was wavering back and forth as to whether or not too say UK
21:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you're going to watch it anyone so i'll not spoil anything in the hope that you realise it's a mess first-hand
21:19:18 <kmc> i like that the placement of the dots within Great Britain is vaguely geographical
21:19:50 <kmc> people are talking about whether they'll redesign the Union Jack if Scotland leaves the UK
21:20:06 <kmc> BBC has some example redesigns most of which are eye-wateringly ugly http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25222891
21:20:12 <Phantom_Hoover> they'd have to lose the blue background, it'd be a disaster
21:20:28 <olsner> will scotland still be in the GB or the commonwealth after independence?
21:20:51 <kmc> olsner: Great Britain is a mostly geographic term not a political one
21:20:58 <kmc> it just means the whole island
21:21:12 <ais523> but basic lesson in geography of that area: the British Isles is an archipelago, of which Great Britain is the largest island and Ireland is the second-largest; the UK is a country/nation, which currently contains all of Great Britain, many of the surrounding islands, Northern Ireland, and some random areas elsewhere in the world (Scotland is considering independence); the main "countries of the UK" are England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland,
21:21:14 <ais523> with some minor smaller ones; and the Republic of Ireland is the other major nation in the archipelago, which consists of all of Ireland apart from Northern Ireland
21:21:19 <kmc> I think plans are to stay in the commonwealth but not sure
21:21:58 <ais523> but yeah, "is Scotland in Great Britain" is a bit of a type error, and the closest answer is "Scotland is a country of the UK, most (but not all) of which consists of land on the island Great Britain"
21:22:05 <kmc> but the UK is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" etc. and that could be awkward if their territory doesn't include the whole island of Britain
21:22:16 <ais523> it'd just be renamed again
21:22:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, re ireland, ulster is generally used interchangeably with northern ireland, but parts of ulster aren't actually in northern ireland
21:22:21 <kmc> but the Republic of Ireland doesn't include the whole island of Ireland so whatever
21:22:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: Ulster is a county, isn't it?
21:22:41 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it's... a province, i think? it's the biggest division
21:22:50 <ais523> right, that makes more sense
21:23:01 <kmc> olsner: the more interesting question I think is whether Scotland gets grandfathered into the EU or whether they'll have to join afresh
21:23:24 <olsner> does scotland want to be in the EU?
21:23:24 <Phantom_Hoover> which is then subdivided into counties; iirc donegal is the only counter in ulster and the ROI
21:23:46 <kmc> yeah and England wants out :3
21:24:16 <Phantom_Hoover> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71533000/jpg/_71533511_350641.jpg i wonder if this was designed just to piss off both sides in ireland
21:24:43 <kmc> but iirc most of the pro-independence groups want to keep using the pound and enter a currency union with the uk, rather than switching to the euro
21:24:46 <kmc> which would be awkward
21:24:55 <kmc> because states joining the EU are required to be on a path to adopting the euro
21:25:08 <kmc> UK having negotiated an exemption at the start of the EU
21:25:23 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: which aren't accepted in England, on the basis that most shopkeepers don't know how to tell whether they're real or forgeries
21:25:24 <Sgeo> I got a call from what I assume to be a wrong number, not sure if I should call back
21:25:32 <Sgeo> Or... even how I could call back
21:25:47 <kmc> so does that exemption carry over to scotland or what
21:25:47 <olsner> kmc: you can stay on the path pretty long without actuall getting the euro though
21:25:51 <kmc> olsner: that's true
21:26:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
21:26:24 <ais523> well, I'm in favour of the EU, but not of the euro
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21:26:40 <ais523> also I consider Scottish independence an interesting prospect, but don't believe it will actually happen in practice
21:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure anyone's really in favour of the euro any more
21:26:47 <kmc> also I like that some states use the euro without the knowledge or approval of the ECB
21:26:52 <kmc> er I mean they know obviously
21:26:55 <kmc> but there's no formal approval
21:27:59 <kmc> and as a result they don't get any say in monetary policy
21:29:34 <kmc> everyone knows ECB mode is insecure anyway
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21:33:27 <Sgeo> > [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat
21:33:29 <lambdabot> [Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Jus...
21:33:55 <FreeFull> > [Just (), Nothing] >>= replicate 3
21:33:56 <lambdabot> [Just (),Just (),Just (),Nothing,Nothing,Nothing]
21:34:16 <Sgeo> Is that first one anything like the mythical 0.9 repeating 1?
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21:34:40 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
21:34:48 <ais523> now, repeat makes an infinite list of 1s
21:34:55 <Sgeo> ais523: and then twos after infinity, I would think
21:35:05 <Sgeo> Except they aren't reachable
21:35:05 <FreeFull> It's the same as concatenating an infinite list of 1s to an infinite list to 2s
21:35:20 <ais523> so if you view it as a List monad action, it replaces each element of a list with infinitely many copies
21:35:27 <ais523> so yeah, the 2s are unreachable
21:35:27 <Sgeo> Right, so, like 0.99999999999999999999 repeating followed by something else, which doesn't really make sense
21:35:38 <ais523> > [1, fix id] >>= repeat
21:35:39 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
21:35:45 <ais523> > [fix id, 1] >>= repeat
21:35:48 <FreeFull> (>>= f) is just concat . map f
21:36:41 <Sgeo> I don't think I need the tutorial on >>= in the list monad
21:37:33 <FreeFull> I thought we were just saying factual stuff randomly
21:39:02 <Sgeo> How about fictional stuff randomly? id is non-strict on its argument
21:39:14 <kmc> FreeFull: that's what you do all the time
21:40:34 <kmc> Sgeo is writing list monad fan fiction
21:40:34 <Sgeo> Pure Haskell functions do not mutate anything
21:42:10 <FreeFull> Laziness is actually a limited form of mutation
21:42:16 <FreeFull> But that's an implementation detail
21:42:37 <kmc> thatsthejoke.png
21:42:41 <Sgeo> So I should specify GHC?
21:44:43 <kmc> it's funny though because it means that ghc haskell has this pervasive hidden side effect that is almost impossible to reason about
21:44:52 <kmc> if you care about performance
21:45:00 <kmc> and that's like the opposite of what haskell is supposed to be about
21:45:04 <Bike> maybe we could say .999....4 is 9*10^-1 + 9*10^-2 + 9*10^-3 + ... + 4*10^-\infty
21:45:55 <FreeFull> kmc: I don't think it's possible to follow the standard and do much better with regards to performance though
21:46:05 <kmc> arithmetic on \infty is poorly defined
21:46:15 <kmc> FreeFull: well it is, but in ways that aren't really relevant to my point
21:46:32 <Bike> we define 10^-\infty as zero. for the sake of my meaningless point
21:46:35 <Sgeo> Idris has laziness annotations in function types, and strict by default otherwise
21:46:40 <Bike> yes thank you FreeFull
21:46:41 <Sgeo> Which seems like a good idea to me
21:46:43 <kmc> you can do arithmetic on ω and such
21:47:00 <Bike> blowing my mind here
21:48:19 <Bike> > pi / exp(sqrt(2))
21:48:39 <lambdabot> cannot mix `GHC.Real./' [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same...
21:48:49 <Sgeo> I think most people here know the denominator 9s trick... although I'm not totally sure how it works
21:49:05 <Bike> just take the limit.
21:49:06 <kmc> i had forgotten
21:49:07 <Bike> everyone loves limits
21:49:15 <kmc> know your limits
21:49:33 <FreeFull> Sgeo: It works in other bases too
21:50:02 <Sgeo> I could have guessed... base-1 several times in denominator
21:50:39 <FreeFull> I wonder if it works in fractional bases
21:54:31 <Bike> S = a*b^-1 + a*b^-2 + ... -> S*b = a + a*b^-1 + a*b^-2 -> S*b = a + S -> S(b-1) = a -> S = a/(b-1)
21:54:44 <Bike> throw another ellipsis in there, barkeep
21:55:53 <FreeFull> I like how simple repunits are to generate
21:56:12 <FreeFull> Works for any integer base that is 2 or bigger
21:56:42 <Bike> you're a positive integer
21:58:03 <ais523> Sgeo: the nice thing is that it works for negative n too
21:58:09 <ais523> -0.1, -0.11, -0.111, -0.1111, etc.
21:58:20 <ais523> (again, regardless of the base)
21:59:24 <Sgeo> I assume ais523 meant FreeFull
22:00:05 <FreeFull> ais523: Yeah, except for ending up negative
22:00:17 <ais523> well, the 0th repunit is 0
22:00:25 <ais523> so negative repunits have to be negative, really
22:00:27 <Bike> merry christmas
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22:02:27 <Bike> 'Goormaghtigh conjecture'
22:02:30 <Sgeo> kmc: just realized you don't need laziness to get infinite data structures... Rust has effectively infinite data structures via owned pointers, right?
22:03:16 <FreeFull> Sgeo: I don't think they're infinite
22:03:53 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe not owned pointers particularly, but some sort of pointer?
22:04:18 <Bike> is seven an infinite data structure
22:04:58 <kmc> Sgeo: how do you figure
22:05:30 <kmc> any structure made of owned & borrowed pointers can be built using raw C-style pointers (in Rust or in C)
22:05:48 <ais523> I think you can do one using managed pointers
22:05:51 <kmc> just with no safety checking or smart memory management
22:05:52 <ais523> an infinite structure, that is
22:06:20 <FreeFull> You need to use pointers in Rust for recursive structures
22:06:24 <ais523> you could do a "cyclic" structure with a mix of owned and borrowed, but it'd be one where all the cycles were broken via borrowed pointers
22:06:24 <Sgeo> I seem to have forgotten about non-cyclic infinite structures
22:06:41 <Bike> some advantages of seven: * infinitely many bits * prime * not like those other girls
22:06:47 <kmc> you can represent something like the classic Haskell "infinite list" in Rust or C, you just need to explicitly distinguish the thunk at the end of the list-so-far and call it to get more elems
22:06:50 <FreeFull> Non-recursive structures are basically unboxed
22:07:06 <kmc> I don't think Rust brings anything special in this area
22:07:24 <ais523> Bike: it might have infinitely many bits, but most of them are zeros :-(
22:07:41 <Bike> ais523: allowing for efficient storage!
22:07:49 <Bike> truly, seven is the data structure of the future
22:09:09 <kmc> > let f 0 = "{}"; f n = (let x = f (n-1) in x ++ ",{" ++ x ++ "}") in f 7
22:09:10 <lambdabot> "{},{{}},{{},{{}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}}...
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22:16:32 <Taneb> It still amuses me that the first thing you see in Newcastle's chinatown is the Tynedale Irish Club
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22:25:43 <kmc> Taneb: is the irish club run by chinese people
22:26:10 <Bike> do they serve chinese turkey
22:26:54 <Taneb> Bike, yeah, on finest turkish china
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22:32:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I enjoyed it but I try really hard to enjoy everything so I don't know whether it was good or not
22:37:41 <kmc> Missing Out Man, the worst superhero
22:40:21 <fizzie> Never there when he's needed?
22:41:11 <kmc> how's your xmas and such
22:41:47 <fizzie> It's following established trajectories.
22:45:43 <fizzie> (We've made the traditional christmas foods -- tortillas with a meat-onion-bell-pepper fillings; chocolate fondue with (totally) bananas -- and I've mostly been playing games on a computer.)
22:49:19 <fizzie> ("Google Chrome could not load the webpage because store.steampowered.com took too long to respond. The website may be down, or you may be experiencing issues with your Internet connection." man, that "free L4D2" deal just did a number on their servers.)
22:49:53 <fizzie> Oh, and we had that Pallini evening, though that was somewhat before the holidays.
22:50:03 <fizzie> (The "my balls" brand of limoncello.)
22:52:40 <kmc> hehe, balls
22:52:51 <kmc> what happens on Pallini evening, other than the drinking of Pallini?
22:53:03 <kmc> or is it more like "what happens on Pallini evening stays in Pallini evening"?
22:54:19 <fizzie> kmc: We watched The Running Man, because it was being shown by one of the local TV channels, and it seemed somehow appropriate.
22:55:41 <fizzie> (Unrelated: I was tempted to say "playing vidcons" back there, a word I learned from a Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden video, but was afraid the reference wouldn't be "gotten".)
22:59:09 <oerjan> fizzie: your christmas cuisine seems somehow unfinnish...
23:00:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, well, that's because Finnish christmas cuisine is kind of stupid.
23:07:42 <kmc> what is finnish christmas cuisine?
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23:09:01 <fizzie> The "centerpiece" is conventionally a ham, but the turkey has been stealing some market share.
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23:10:36 <fizzie> Then there's fish in a couple of ways, the "boxes" (various casseroles; potato, carrot, rutabaga are the usual triplet) and "rosolli", which is a kind of a beetroot/carrot/potato/apple/etc. salad.
23:11:01 <fizzie> The latter sometimes with whipped cream, possibly coloured light pink with the beetroot juice.
23:11:30 <fizzie> Karelian stew in the eastern parts, but I'm not sure if that counts, since it's quite an everyday food there too.
23:11:40 <FreeFull> Beetroot juice can colour other things too
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23:12:40 <fizzie> Oh, and rice porridge, possibly not as a part of the actual christmas dinner but just generally during this time of the year.
23:13:01 <fizzie> And some sort of plum-based dessert, that's quite common too.
23:13:08 <fizzie> That's about all I can think of offhand.
23:13:56 <fizzie> The ham is supposed to have some kind of a mustard glazing thing going on, too.
23:14:37 <fizzie> (Oh, and there's glögi (mulled wine) to drink, but there's nothing wrong with *that*.)
23:16:18 <fizzie> Some people eat lutefisk, I believe.
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23:20:44 <kmc> i don't really understand the appeal of turkeys
23:20:47 <kmc> most of the meat is flavorless
23:21:12 <kmc> FreeFull with the #beetrootjuicefacts
23:21:34 <kmc> mulled wine is great
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23:28:44 <fizzie> Though it's more of a "it's twenty degrees below freezing out there" drink, seems a bit of a waste for this "flat +5 °C day and night" weather.
23:32:16 <kmc> that's pretty warm
23:40:57 <fizzie> http://outside.aalto.fi/img/temp.week.png
23:42:22 <fizzie> Warmer than the average, but possibly nothing too unlikely yet.
23:42:35 <fizzie> Statistically, two out of three christmases in Helsinki are white.
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23:51:24 <kmc> ah, I guess it's already not-Christmas there
23:52:57 <oerjan> that might depend how you define christmas.
23:53:24 <fizzie> It's been the 26th for about two hours now.
23:53:43 <oerjan> by some norwegian traditions, "jul" lasts for 20 days.
23:54:58 <kmc> some would say that christmas is on january 7
23:56:43 <FireFly> The sixth is a holiday in sweden anyway
23:56:59 <FireFly> "Thirteenth day of christmas"
23:57:45 <FireFly> Oh, I guess it's twelth day, counting from the 25th
23:59:17 <kmc> look i just put "orthodox easter" into google i didn't ask a bishop or w/e
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00:28:14 <kmc> Memory has been exhausted; operation cannot continue (sorry).
00:28:26 <kmc> xview is polite
00:29:14 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/8128275
00:29:49 <fizzie> "Sorry it didn't work out." --qmail-send
00:30:16 <kmc> "Internal compiler error. It's not you, it's me."
00:31:46 <fizzie> "Hi. This is the qmail-send program at hostname.tld. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out." (Full version.)
00:32:58 <kmc> oh my stupid regex missed: %s: Sorry, cannot load images deeper than 16 bits (yet)
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01:15:46 <Sgeo> holy crap solar eclipse cruises sell out quickly
01:43:41 <Sgeo> (Comment on a RuneScape music video)
01:43:42 <Sgeo> "even though the game is back no one is generous. I say that because im angry. Yes there are a few generous people but i had to BEG people to sell me law runes so i could teleport somewhere, i wasnt asking for free i said ill pay and i begged and begged but no one even acknowledged me and the few who did, well guess what they wrote ? then they walked off after i asked."
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01:45:19 <Edwardz> Hey guys! I just "Google Scholar'd" "brainfuck" and got some really cool results that I think an esoteric language community would be interested in. Foremost, however, is definitely this one!
01:45:20 <Edwardz> http://www.nada.kth.se/kurser/kth/2D1464/awib.pdf
01:45:36 <Edwardz> Did any of you publish this...? ;)
01:45:38 <Bike> can you give me a title or something, i don't want to download a pdf
01:45:51 <Edwardz> Sorry, Chrome makes one forget about the whole PDF thing.
01:45:58 <Edwardz> The design and implementation of awib, a brainfuck compiler written in brainfuck
01:46:17 <Bike> i think there are a couple of those on the esolang page
01:46:37 <Bike> well, there we go.
01:46:46 <Edwardz> I hadn't checked, apologies. I found the background and preface extremely cool.
01:47:18 <Bike> https://twitter.com/matslina weird how you can find anybody on the internet nowadays
01:48:30 <Bike> here, in return, have this paper http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749
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02:01:40 <kmc> arxiv is the best venue for publishing hard sci-fi
02:02:48 <Bike> sci-fi so hard it actually happened
02:03:42 <Bike> hm, i should use that to refer to naturalistic novels
02:08:39 <kmc> well some of it is about, like, hypothetical space missions to save the earth from the sun blowing up in 5 billion years
02:09:16 <kmc> or the self-replicating intergalactic probes
02:12:10 <Bike> i oughta make me some o those
02:12:31 <Bike> are there any estimates on how long they'd take to kill us all if i sent one to, say, tau ceti
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02:47:23 * kmc drinking mulled peach wine
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02:51:13 <kmc> but do you like wines
02:51:59 <kmc> apparently
02:52:07 <kmc> peach wine is p. good (n=1)
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03:07:23 <kmc> shachaf: did you have a good christmas or w/e
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03:20:00 <kmc> what did you do
03:20:11 <kmc> `quote christmas
03:20:13 <HackEgo> 522) <fungot> CakeProphet: mr president, in the best egyptian judicial traditions has now been put off to friday. but i want my money back'. we know it generally deals with major infrastructure projects which could form part of the emergency package for korea, on christmas eve, in the interests of consumers and the environment of gmos. \ 836) <kmc>
03:20:17 <shachaf> tried to sleep through the noise while being sick
03:20:20 <kmc> `quote 836
03:20:22 <HackEgo> 836) <kmc> no christmas without christ, no thursday without thor
03:20:30 <kmc> good quote kmc
03:20:31 <shachaf> was woken up at 3something by loud music
03:20:53 <shachaf> people are so inconsiderate
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04:34:10 <zzo38> Today I got a "Puzzle Strike" game.
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05:22:45 <kmc> what which fuck
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07:55:17 <Sgeo> http://cgi.cs.indiana.edu/~oracle/digest.cgi?N=1524#1524-02
07:55:27 <Sgeo> I don't want the Internet Oracle to die
08:10:59 <Sgeo> http://cgi.cs.indiana.edu/~oracle/digest.cgi?N=1521#1521-03 I like this one
08:18:01 <Sgeo> http://cgi.cs.indiana.edu/~oracle/digest.cgi?N=1521#1521-05
08:35:25 <Sgeo> help im addicted
08:36:03 <Bike> why couldn't you get addicted to heroin like a good son
08:50:09 <Sgeo> I need to be awake and coherent soon :/
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08:51:09 <Bike> you know what might help with that? drugz
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08:52:30 <Sgeo> A very good idea immediately before a drug test
08:53:03 <Bike> if you don't have enough drugz you'll fail the drug tesst
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09:15:55 <oerjan> <shachaf> was woken up at 3something by loud music <-- i'm going to assume something = pm, because it makes the rest funnier (and i still feel with you)
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13:22:37 <Sgeo> rec.humor.oracle.d is full of spam
13:22:46 <Sgeo> Just like a hovercraft full of eels
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13:55:35 <HackEgo> w00tles: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:59:49 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131226-lifenative.jpg -- don't know why, but I just absolutely have to take a picture whenever a public computer has crashed.
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15:33:18 <boily> fizzie: what is lifenative?
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15:42:57 <fizzie> No clue, but I assume it's the software responsible for the interactive multimedia experience under the error message.
15:50:56 <boily> you have a N900? sweet :D
15:53:17 <fizzie> Huh, the exif tags survived the trip through Gimp? Fancy.
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16:30:38 <metasepia> CYQB 261600Z 05006KT 3/4SM -SN OVC007 M11/M14 A3024 RMK SN6SF2 SLP248
16:37:19 <metasepia> ESKN 261620Z 09004KT 9000 MIFG BR NSC 00/00 Q1002 R26/710164
16:38:32 <olsner> hmm, BR was that french word for something, wasn't it?
16:39:13 <boily> also, you have MIFG ← http://www.aeroinstructor.com/2011/02/shallow-fog-metar-mifg/
16:39:24 <olsner> brume, "poetic heavy mist or fog"
16:41:04 <boily> brume is lighter than fog.
16:46:07 <olsner> no significant cloud... and 00/00 is temperature = dewpoint = 0 C?
16:50:35 <olsner> that 9000 is visibility?
16:53:14 <boily> Rnn/nnnnnn is runway condition. I can't decipher them without a guide.
16:53:34 <boily> 9000 is ground visibility. I think it's 9 km, but I'm not sure.
16:53:50 * boily mutters to himself “metric units...”
16:54:02 <Taneb> I'm gonna rehost my esolangs page
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17:01:18 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/esolangs.html
17:02:10 <shachaf> Taneb: s/Read/Real/ on the last entry there.
17:02:35 <Taneb> shachaf, good spot
17:02:47 <boily> Taneb: your page, it is exclamatory!
17:04:56 <Taneb> I am not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing!
17:05:18 <boily> olsner: seems your R group is a special European runway designation →https://www.ivao.aero/training/tutorials/metar/metar.htm, § EIGHT FIGURE GROUP.
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17:14:26 <myname> Taneb: why does MIBBLLII not have square brackets? :(
17:15:04 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:15:14 <Taneb> Just they're syntax, not operators
17:15:59 <Taneb> "It uses [ and ] as brackets for grouping combinators"
17:16:41 <myname> why don't you provide interpreters?
17:17:02 <Taneb> Mostly because either there isn't an interpreter or because I haven't bothered
17:17:09 <Taneb> Where they exist the wiki links to them
17:23:15 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm gonna be wrong aren't I
17:23:19 <quintopia> would anyone be really pissed if i went through the brainfuck constants page and deleted all but one of each the "multiplying factors" programs that were identical up to commutation of factors?
17:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> like people define [] in brainfuck as 'operators' but you get exactly the same language as you get if you define them as 'syntax'
17:24:10 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think you would in MIBBLII
17:25:11 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: you'd have to change the semantics of bf to define them as syntax right? [ and ] actually do things (compare the current cell to zero) and that functionality would have to be moved into a category of "the way grouped commands in this language behave"
17:26:42 <Phantom_Hoover> in bf i would just say "+-,.<> work as normal, [prog] runs prog if the current cell is nonzero, then [prog] again"
17:27:27 <quintopia> essentially exactly what i was saying
17:31:39 <quintopia> so yeah, no one cares if i go on a BF constants deleting spree?
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17:45:12 * boily is munching on some crackers while he watches the deleting spree.
17:45:56 <boily> quintopia: delete to you heart content!
17:46:11 <boily> I'm hungry, there are crackers.
17:47:40 <olsner> is it important to delete constants?
17:47:50 <quintopia> the nice thing about BF is that programs that look very similar probably are very similar in what they do. (for a specific meaning of "look similar")
17:49:04 <boily> I'm environmentally aware. I recycle my constants.
17:54:40 <quintopia> boily: a reversible computing proponent?
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18:10:37 <boily> chellontrapumpkin.
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18:12:24 <boily> quintopia: 100% efficiency isn't physically possible, so there are always some side-effects left. sure, you get some FDIV errors here and there when using recycled numbers, but it's the best for Nature, Earth, and Round Blue Stuff like that.
18:20:05 <FreeFull> Reversible computing doesn't change the entropy of the system, I think
18:20:24 <Slereah> Reversible computing minimizes the entropy increase
18:20:25 <FreeFull> Or, not until you want to get the answer
18:20:38 <FreeFull> So you get the theoretically minimum energy usage
18:20:59 <Slereah> (Because you are mad if you think it will do 0 entropy increase)
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18:23:26 <FreeFull> Well, you can't do computation without entropy increase
18:23:43 <FreeFull> Information theory and all that
18:23:51 <boily> I AGREE WITH SLEREAH! FREEFULL IS MAD! (also, what is a wendel?)
18:24:01 <kmc> can't you get the answer too, you just can't forget anything?
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18:24:58 <Slereah> boily : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJiD43oeLCU#t=2m58
18:25:47 <FreeFull> But I never said you could compute without increasing entropy
18:26:30 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
18:26:31 <HackEgo> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
18:27:13 <boily> imho, entropy and madness are usually orthogonal, but you never know. sometimes they leak unto each other.
18:27:36 <FreeFull> Maybe I should finish reading that book
18:27:38 <Slereah> Then how do you explain perpetual motion machines
18:27:52 <Slereah> Lack of entropy brings madness
18:28:21 <Bike> the whole wacky insane thing is so very unpleasant after havin nightmares about schizophrenia
18:28:41 <Slereah> Oh I had a fun dream like that
18:29:00 <Slereah> But only screaming in my mind
18:29:09 <Slereah> BECAUSE NO SOUND WAS COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH
18:29:20 <boily> `run echo 'Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.' >wisdom/'perpetual motion machine'
18:29:44 <HackEgo> Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFulls phone. They were hallucinated by Slereahs lack of entropy.
18:29:52 <HackEgo> perpetuum mobile? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:30:07 <boily> `run echo "Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy." >wisdom/'perpetual motion machine'
18:30:21 <Slereah> Possibly of electric sheep
18:31:01 <FreeFull> `run ln -l wisdom/'perpetual motion machine' wisdom/'perpetuum mobile'
18:31:02 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- 'l' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
18:31:04 <boily> my bot is lagged. it just got to “WENDEL!”
18:31:08 <FreeFull> `run ln -s wisdom/'perpetual motion machine' wisdom/'perpetuum mobile'
18:31:11 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/perpetuum mobile': Not a directory
18:31:25 <FreeFull> `run ln -s wisdom/'perpetuum mobile' wisdom/'perpetual motion machine'
18:31:27 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/perpetual motion machine': File exists
18:31:31 <FreeFull> I always get the order mixed up
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18:31:44 <HackEgo> perpetuum mobile? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:32:13 <FreeFull> What does it mean by not a directory again?
18:32:25 <FreeFull> `run ln -s ./wisdom/'perpetuum mobile' 'perpetual motion machine'
18:32:29 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `perpetual motion machine': Not a directory
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18:32:51 <FreeFull> `run ln -s 'perpetual motion machine' ./wisdom/'perpetuum mobile'
18:32:52 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `./wisdom/perpetuum mobile': Not a directory
18:33:00 <FreeFull> `run ln -s 'perpetual motion machine' /hackego/wisdom/'perpetuum mobile'
18:33:02 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `/hackego/wisdom/perpetuum mobile': No such file or directory
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18:34:35 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetuum_mobile
18:35:02 <FreeFull> Except that page is about it in music
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18:37:55 <FreeFull> One fun thing about perpetual motion is that the capillary bowl setup actually works if you use superliquid helium
18:38:02 <FreeFull> You can't extract energy from it though
18:38:29 <FreeFull> And the helium will end up dripping out
18:39:13 <FreeFull> I guess you could make it enclosed, and use some material that doesn't have microscopic pores
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18:40:48 <boily> so you'd have a dripping, supercooled, isolated perpetual motion machine?
18:41:14 <FreeFull> boily: Well, you'd have to keep it cool
18:41:23 <Bike> 'huge dogecoin heist' no, world, i'm not ready for this
18:41:38 <FreeFull> Dogecoins were never a good thing
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18:45:17 <Bike> https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i.imgur.com/nh2vUkx.png&fnr
18:59:05 <myname> i am a bit disappointed because of the lack of any offline haskell interpreters for android
19:01:51 <Bike> typing code on a phone sounds painful
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19:02:11 <myname> depends on your keyboard
19:02:25 <myname> hacker's keyboard on a tablet is actually pretty usable
19:02:50 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Just like a hovercraft full of eels <-- well they're both monty python terms hth
19:03:39 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> Just like a hovercraft full of eels <-- well they're both monty python terms hth
19:14:21 <HackEgo> a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur. If you mention eels, you'll get smacked with one of them in a most unappropriate manner.
19:14:24 <kmc> ⠠⠵⠠⠵ HACKER KEYBOARD⠠⠵⠠⠵
19:14:55 <boily> @tell Sgeo you deserve an inappropriate smack.
19:15:12 * boily gacks at such an horrendous usage of Braille
19:16:22 <myname> oh wow, you could write base64 perfectly fine with braille
19:20:12 <HackEgo> [U+2820 BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-6] [U+2835 BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-1356]
19:21:48 <oerjan> `unicode BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-6
19:25:48 <oerjan> `run unicode 'BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-45' 'BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-12' 'BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-36'
19:26:57 <oerjan> `run unicode 'BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-35' 'BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-14' 'BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-26'
19:28:00 <lambdabot> ⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔⠉⠢⠔...
19:29:34 <oerjan> `run unicode 'BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-34' 'BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-16'
19:31:27 <oerjan> ^ul (⠌)S((⠌)(⠡))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
19:31:27 <fungot> ⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠡⠌⠌⠡⠡⠌⠌⠡ ...too much output!
19:31:35 <kmc> much output, very braille
19:31:52 <kmc> is that the moose-thor sequence?
19:32:10 * boily carves an aerodynamic dog in a maple branch, then lobs it towards kmc's head
19:33:05 <oerjan> hm that doesn't not have the expected pronunciation
19:34:49 <oerjan> except they spell it geas. people like that should go to gaol.
19:34:58 <kmc> gaol is in hexham right?
19:35:07 <kmc> gaol is a place where nothing ever happens
19:36:03 <boily> UK's goegraphy is weird.
19:37:12 <Taneb> Anyone got any fun, easy recipes for me to cook tomorrow/
19:38:19 <oerjan> Taneb: i note your esopage doesn't mention that you cannot directly put negative numbers in the program.
19:38:32 <boily> Taneb: http://youtu.be/CeZlih4DDNg
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19:40:49 <boily> Taneb: also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambalaya. I make mine with ham.
19:42:43 <boily> oerjan: I can't resolve what your “argh” is pointing to.
19:43:02 <oerjan> something clearly satanic
19:45:12 <boily> I made it a few weeks ago. it was very good! (the Powers of the Ancients were properly channeled into the Glorious Pad Thai!)
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19:56:42 <Taneb> oerjan, you realise my esopage has been online for months, I've just moved it?
19:58:14 <oerjan> Taneb: yes, so i just took a look
20:00:12 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env node \ // Generated by CoffeeScript 1.6.2 \ (function() { \ var consonant_then_o, ell_manglable, ends_with_consonant, ends_with_consonant_then_vowel, name, starts_with_o; \ \ name = process.argv[2]; \ \ if (!(name != null ? name.length : void 0)) { \ console.log('Usage: ello <name>'); \ process.exit(); \ } \ \
20:00:30 <boily> holy fungot. who coffeed that?
20:00:30 <fungot> boily: http://developer.apple.com/ documentation/ fnord
20:00:49 <boily> fungot: it's now an apple product? oh the humanity...
20:00:50 <fungot> boily: because i was lifting a tileset from it. in fact i am not
20:01:18 <boily> fungot: oh. careful with lifting tiles from cupertino. you could receive a C&A, and that would be terrible.
20:01:19 <fungot> boily: yet another casualty in the drug war
20:02:04 <boily> fungot: I know. as the proverb goes, you can't break eggs without inventing the Universal Pie from scratch first.
20:02:04 <fungot> boily: it's the name of godel against my original statment on the matter
20:02:25 <boily> fungot: I trust gödel more than you.
20:10:11 <shachaf> I trust fungot a lot more.
20:10:12 <fungot> shachaf: s/ thunk/ procedure/. about that...?
20:10:40 <boily> shachaf: I think fungot is a spy.
20:10:41 <fungot> boily: so the evaluator creates these two reactions, 1 a, 2 bits for space reasons"
20:10:43 <fungot> shachaf: is a primitive is: ( define foo car)
20:12:24 <oerjan> gödel only trusted those who didn't trust themselves. r.i.p. gödel.
20:14:16 <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure you're not secretly written in Scheme?
20:14:16 <fungot> fizzie: that's the part i'm working on a sound library for games as well; the fnord are down because they can't allow downloads easily i can run
20:14:23 <shachaf> i only trust people who don't trust oerjan
20:14:35 <fizzie> shachaf: That must be a p. small set of people.
20:15:25 <oerjan> shachaf: a wise policy.
20:15:53 <oerjan> the people who trust me are such fools.
20:16:19 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't know about that
20:16:51 <oerjan> i see no contradictions yet.
20:19:58 <boily> oerjan is my standard unit of trustiness.
20:21:08 <boily> I trust fungot at 500 mSø.
20:21:08 <fungot> boily: i think that is the same word as " husband" blah blah blah))
20:22:19 <shachaf> fungot: do you know what the hebrew word for " husband" is
20:22:19 <fungot> shachaf: that much i could figure out the commands,
20:23:27 <boily> shachaf: is that like trying to open the doors of Moria? “מדבר בעל ולהיכנס.”
20:23:52 <boily> (hm. some directionality was lost in transcribing...)
20:31:51 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Well, you can't do computation without entropy increase <-- *cough* only if you delete information. what do you think the point of using reversible computing is?
20:34:40 <shachaf> Taneb: I'm not sure why you would want to write a hello world program in Agda.
20:34:59 <Taneb> shachaf, shut up I just want it to stop shouting at me when I try to compile
20:35:35 <FreeFull> oerjan: We can't actually reach true reversibility though
20:35:38 <shachaf> What are you trying to compile and how?
20:35:46 <shachaf> oh wait will follow instructions
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20:37:15 <oerjan> FreeFull: maybe not. also, trying to put symbolic links in HackEgo is folly hth
20:40:01 <oerjan> first, because you can never remember how ln is _supposed_ to work, secondly because i don't think symbolic links work with the hg repository.
20:40:23 <shachaf> oerjan: What about the old wisdom/ngevd?
20:40:36 <FreeFull> oerjan: So cp is the only option?
20:40:47 <FreeFull> But that won't update with changes
20:40:49 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't quite remember.
20:41:11 <HackEgo> perpetuum mobile? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:41:18 <oerjan> `? perpetual motion machine
20:41:20 <HackEgo> Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
20:41:53 <oerjan> `run ln -s 'perpetual motion machine' wisdom/'perpetuum mobile'
20:41:54 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/perpetuum mobile': Not a directory
20:42:05 <HackEgo> perpetuum mobile? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:42:28 <FreeFull> Yeah, it gives that weird Not a directory error
20:42:56 <FreeFull> Maybe if you give it the full path?
20:43:17 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/perp*
20:43:19 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 107 Dec 26 18:30 wisdom/perpetual motion machine \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 31 Dec 26 18:31 wisdom/perpetuum mobile -> wisdom/perpetual motion machine
20:43:45 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/perpetuum mobile
20:43:55 <oerjan> `run ln -s 'perpetual motion machine' wisdom/'perpetuum mobile'
20:43:59 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/perpetuum mobile': File exists
20:44:06 <FreeFull> You didn't remove it correctly
20:44:20 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/perp*
20:44:21 <boily> ah, the joy of symbolic links :D
20:44:22 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 107 Dec 26 18:30 wisdom/perpetual motion machine \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 24 Dec 26 20:43 wisdom/perpetuum mobile -> perpetual motion machine
20:44:28 * boily munches on «sucre à la crème»
20:44:39 <HackEgo> Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
20:45:11 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/*wolfram
20:45:12 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:51 wisdom/stephen wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
20:45:49 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
20:45:54 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
20:46:15 <HackEgo> Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
20:46:40 <oerjan> i have this vague hunch that the links sometimes just stop working again.
20:46:54 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, and Go.
20:47:08 <boily> I think I was the first to call them “tanebventions”...
20:47:14 <boily> `pastlogs tanebvention
20:47:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
20:47:20 <boily> `pastlog tanebvention
20:48:33 <boily> `pastelog tanebvention
20:48:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9996
20:49:01 <oerjan> pastlog should have worked
20:49:09 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 10 Oct 30 15:01 wisdom/e/e -> wisdom/e/e
20:49:38 <boily> shachaf: as in, if I invent you, and you invent Taneb, that implies I invented Taneb?
20:50:23 <Taneb> boily, therefore you invented Stephen Wolfram
20:51:07 <FreeFull> `run grep -iR taneb wisdom/ | wc -l
20:51:26 <Taneb> `people whom taneb is not
20:51:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: people: not found
20:51:30 <Taneb> `? people whom taneb is not
20:51:32 <HackEgo> people whom taneb is not? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:51:36 <Taneb> `? people who taneb is not
20:51:36 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/e: No such file or directory
20:51:37 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
20:51:54 <shachaf> mysteriously, fungot is not on the list
20:51:55 <fungot> shachaf: it's all hw stuff is too much work and can be fnord
20:51:56 <boily> Taneb: a shame, really.
20:52:21 <boily> shachaf: for Taneb to have invented fungot, there must be an isomorphism between him and fizzie.
20:52:22 <fungot> boily: glass/, linguine/ i had to remove all the text to include some content.
20:52:50 <shachaf> what is the biextensional collapse of Taneb
20:53:53 <boily> ~duck biextensional collapse
20:54:12 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:54:29 -!- metasepia has joined.
20:54:53 <boily> ~duck biextensional collapse
20:55:14 <shachaf> it's a thing you can do to chu spaces
20:55:17 <shachaf> it's sort of like a skeleton
20:57:14 <boily> mine eyes glazeth over thine bidimensional skeleton.
20:57:39 <shachaf> your skeleton is bidimensional
20:58:00 <boily> that'd explain a lot of things.
20:58:36 <shachaf> boily: by the way, "glazeth" is singular
20:58:52 <shachaf> maybe you just want the word "glaze"
20:59:01 <metasepia> glaze definition: to furnish or fit with glass.
20:59:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10027
20:59:46 <boily> `pastelog eyes.*over
21:00:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6495
21:00:30 <boily> “normally distributed glazed eyes served over bouchées of surreal bread rolls.”
21:01:13 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:02:35 <oerjan> there's boily with his r'lyehan fusion cuisine again. i guess it balances out the vegan black metal somehow.
21:03:17 <boily> oerjan: I need my proteins somehow.
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21:04:27 <HackEgo> [U+261D WHITE UP POINTING INDEX]
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21:05:00 <oerjan> shachaf: it clearly specifies an index not a middle finger hth
21:05:03 <zzo38> Do hardware compilers have to analyze state machines? Maybe in such case I should add a state machine command if it would be really helpful for this purpose?
21:05:06 <fizzie> I'll give you the FINGER.
21:05:56 <shachaf> oerjan: because i was pointing above
21:06:16 <fizzie> What was in the above that I was supposed to pay attention to, though?
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21:06:27 <shachaf> fizzie: Eyes are plural, so they "glaze" over.
21:06:47 <fizzie> Okay. That is good to know.
21:07:04 <Bike> zzo38: they don't /have/ to, they just have ways to analyze fsms for optimization
21:07:15 <lambdabot> *** "glaze" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:07:16 <lambdabot> n 1: any of various thin shiny (savory or sweet) coatings
21:07:17 <shachaf> 2009-03-31.txt:20:40:25: <fizzie> I just do strict+warnings on top of every script, since I can't read the "use diagnostics;" error messages; they are so verbose, my eyes glazeth over.
21:07:58 <zzo38> Bike: Ah, OK, but do you know how such a thing is used? I think you have said you wanted to enter state machines for this purpose?
21:08:46 <boily> fizzie: oh! would you mind providing me with that delicious-sounding Finnish delicacy? I'm always on the prowl to try out new ingredients :D
21:09:01 <fizzie> Sorry, I'm using them.
21:09:04 <lambdabot> *** "savory" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:09:04 <lambdabot> adj 1: morally wholesome or acceptable; "a past that was
21:09:04 <lambdabot> scarcely savory" [syn: {savory}, {savoury}] [ant:
21:09:04 <lambdabot> {offensive}, {unsavory}, {unsavoury}]
21:09:17 <Bike> zzo38: i can't say i know the particulars of synthesis, no :(
21:10:20 <zzo38> How would you intend to enter them for this purpose, though, at least?
21:10:23 <Bike> i can imagine specific algorithms for assigning state codes or whatever
21:11:03 <zzo38> In case you can program the state machine directly if it is applicable to the program
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21:28:55 <fizzie> http://hs11.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/960/1305764920260?ts=353 some people take this "gingerbread house" thing a bit further than others.
21:29:03 <fizzie> (That's the central railway station of Helsinki.)
21:29:54 <fizzie> (Well, I mean, yes, it's only a model.)
21:30:26 <oerjan> pretty sure i saw a picture in the newspaper recently of one that was hut-sized.
21:32:21 <fizzie> Probably the new world record.
21:32:58 <fizzie> (For the largest gingerbread house in terms of volume -- 39202 cubic feet.)
21:33:10 <oerjan> what we need is to get dubai involved somehow.
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21:39:49 <oerjan> b_jonas: hm are you the same b_jonas as on the iwc forum?
21:41:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: if you mean irregularwebcomics, then yes
21:42:10 <b_jonas> (I'm the majority of b_jonas-es from the web actually)
21:42:12 <FreeFull> fizzie: I hope the green bits aren't mint
21:42:46 <b_jonas> (now I'll have to wonder what bit of stupidity you found)
21:42:55 <fizzie> FreeFull: They're just sugar with green/black food dye.
21:43:03 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh it was something a-mazing hth
21:44:16 * oerjan might point out he isn't actually registered on the forum, he's just lurked there for years. (hi Taneb!)
21:44:31 <fizzie> (Or I think something having to do with oxidized copper in real life.)
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22:05:40 <FreeFull> fizzie: Actually, it's copper carbonate that's green
22:06:23 <Vorpal> <fizzie> http://hs11.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/960/1305764920260?ts=353 some people take this "gingerbread house" thing a bit further than others. <-- that is amazing
22:06:36 <Taneb> oerjan, I've sort of wandered away from the forum :(
22:06:43 <Vorpal> <fizzie> (For the largest gingerbread house in terms of volume -- 39202 cubic feet.) <-- got a picture?
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22:21:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Guinness-certifies-world-s-largest-gingerbread-5028028.php is what I saw.
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22:30:07 <Taneb> I remember a logic puzzle with 5 cats that want to get outside but different combinations of them fight, and you have to find a way to get all of them outside without a fight
22:32:24 <Taneb> I was wondering if anyone could remember the puzzle existing, and/or give me a link to it
22:34:20 <kmc> that's max clique isn't it
22:48:43 <Taneb> What's a fun thing I can do with a server
22:49:49 <quintopia> Taneb: irc, wobsite, stream music anywhere
22:49:53 <shachaf> what does "server" mean in this context
22:50:25 <Taneb> shachaf, it's a shell server running I think Arch
22:50:33 <quintopia> oerjan: is the server the ball or the racket
22:50:34 <shachaf> ok so not a program like a web server
22:50:49 <Taneb> quintopia, it's the player
22:51:05 <quintopia> Taneb: shhh. that's not helping me woefully misunderstand his terrible pun
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22:52:40 <Taneb> At the moment it's hosting my esolangs page and I almost played nethack on it
22:52:53 <shachaf> play nethack on nethack.alt.org
22:53:06 <Taneb> I guess I could download XML dumps of the wiki
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23:03:52 <fizzie> Run a tor hidden service selling all kinds of salacious stuffs for bitcoins.
23:05:07 <quintopia> (except that's for dogecoin, but same idea)
23:06:43 <Taneb> All roads lead to Rome
23:07:31 <Bike> they just called it 'doge road'? that's so boring.
23:08:01 <Bike> i don't know, i'm sure i could find a historical road associated with dogs
23:08:04 <fizzie> "Doge Road is coming very TOR such good prices much profit wow many weed" yes that is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.
23:09:53 <quintopia> 10:1 that guy gets arrested almost immediately. or its a scam.
23:10:25 <Bike> i like to think nobody will give a shit, as is right and proper
23:11:41 <fizzie> Heh, I didn't really know that the way to buy dogecoins (and other such) tend to be in bitcoins.
23:14:46 <quintopia> but you can get doge for free right now
23:18:07 <fizzie> Perhaps someone should design some sort of metacoin that's automatically changed to the next big cryptocurrency, so that people don't need to keep track.
23:18:51 <quintopia> they call those mutual funds or something like that.
23:21:02 <Bike> buggre all this for a larke coin
23:22:02 <fizzie> okokoins are backed by oklopol.
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23:24:34 <Bike> anyone messes with okokoins, they get the ol one two! (gestures to scrawny mathematician arms) that's the Oklopol Guarantee (TM) (jingle)
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01:00:55 <Bike> meanwhile in r/bitcoin http://mibpaste.com/uXYrCS
01:02:02 <Jafet> http://superuser.com/questions/693440/why-does-an-exe-file-not-appear-as-ones-and-zeros-in-a-text-editor-such-as-notep
01:02:24 <ais523> the top answer's going to be sensible, isn't it
01:04:02 <nooodl> These answers are very long. / The simple answer is: Notepad tries to see the 0s and 1s as text, which is its job. It doesn't realize they are not text and just displays what it can, which is a big jumble of letters that make no sense.
01:04:12 <Bike> nice painting.
01:04:14 <nooodl> ^ that's probably enough
01:04:34 <nooodl> most of all it did not need an arthur dove painting to bring the point across
01:04:56 <ais523> I was hoping there'd be a plausible-looking answer that's completely wrong near the top
01:05:06 <ais523> but it's superuser, not yahoo! answers
01:05:15 <nooodl> anyway there is some nonexciting esolanging happening http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gs2#Commands "wip"
01:05:22 <ais523> I saw that in recent changes
01:05:34 <nooodl> the from/to columns are uh halfway between forth stack diagram things and type signatures
01:05:41 <kmc> http://mushroomobserver.org/image/show_image/393975?_js=on&_new=true&obs=156302&q=1hq7D weird-ass mutant mushroom, via douglass_
01:05:47 <nooodl> i should've maybe figured out which one i wanna use
01:06:09 <Bike> kmc: nice fronds babe
01:06:14 <Bike> what the hell are those
01:09:44 <shachaf> one time i tried to download a .exe file from some strange server but instead of 0s and 1s it had 0s and 2s
01:10:02 <shachaf> almost broke my computer. F- would not download again
01:10:31 <Bike> futumura joke??
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01:11:31 <kmc> my file had p's and q's
01:11:33 <shachaf> http://tech.karbassi.com/2008/01/15/futurama-benders-big-score-binary-joke/ ??
01:11:42 <shachaf> "Now, if you take the whole thing by itself, it’s not a 16-bit code, but 32-bit. I believe IBM made a few super computers that handle 32-bit binary."
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01:17:02 <ais523> shachaf: I like sentences like "I believe IBM made a few super computers that handle 32-bit binary." because they're true, and yet make the speaker sound horrifically uninformed
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01:40:04 <shachaf> ais523: Do you have a collection of them?
01:49:00 <zzo38> Do you know about iNES mapper 90? It has many strange things that don't make sense, such as: bit reversed mode for PRG bank numbers, the ability to change $6000-$7FFF between open bus and ROM (not RAM), two different ways to set nametable mirroring (which one is used is both software-controlled and controlled by a jumper), IRQ "funky mode", ability to set direction of IRQ counter.
01:49:19 <Bike> tell me more about the funk.
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01:50:15 <kmc> is the jumper user-accessible on the cart?
01:50:20 <kmc> also what is nametable mirroring?
01:52:15 <zzo38> Nametable mirroring in the Famicom is used to determine how the CIRAM is mirrored, which changes the arrangement of the four background screens; for example, if the right screen and left screen are the same, or if the top screen and bottom screen are the same instead. However there are more complicated kinds two, these are just the two simple kinds of nametable mirroring.
01:52:53 <zzo38> I don't know if the jumper is user-accessible. I also don't know how the "funky mode" works.
02:04:33 <kmc> `unidecode Ɛ
02:04:35 <HackEgo> [U+0190 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER OPEN E]
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03:40:02 <zzo38> I am in progress typing of Dungeons&Dragons game. I did play the game yesterday, in fact. But now there is a problem, but I do have a plan.
04:12:06 <coppro> I'm trying to parse the first sentence
04:24:54 <kmc> zzo38 Teaches Typing
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05:08:35 <Sgeo> :( at unmarked cabs
05:08:58 <zzo38> Unlike chess, planning ahead is much more difficult because of unknown information, but is just as important!
05:09:27 <zzo38> But, like in correspondence chess, there is enough time between sessions to think of it.
05:09:30 <quintopia> zzo38: how many non-attacking bishops can you place on a chessboard?
05:10:17 * Sgeo assumes the answer is greater than -1
05:10:29 <zzo38> quintopia: Do you mean like the queen puzzle, but only with diagonal moves?
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05:11:42 <zzo38> You could make the split between the dark squares and light squares, so I would think the answer would be some even number.
05:12:29 <kmc> Sgeo: what about unmarked cabs
05:12:30 <zzo38> OK, I got that much correct!
05:12:36 <quintopia> also, you can fill an entire rank or file safely, so it's more than 8!
05:12:44 <coppro> quintopia: no it's not
05:12:48 <coppro> there are only 64 squares on a chessborad
05:12:49 <quintopia> (in fact, that's a good path to a solution)
05:12:53 <Sgeo> kmc: cab company I was unfamiliar with sent a cab that was not obviously a cab
05:13:04 <Sgeo> Made me nervous so called company to check that it was in fact my cab
05:13:27 <quintopia> also, you can fill an entire rank or file safely, so it's more than 8!/7!
05:13:55 <Sgeo> Also, unrelated to it being unmarked, the driver had me input the address into the GPS. If I were tech-illiterate, that would have really sucked
05:14:26 <zzo38> Yes I realized that too, although I just instead to consider only the dark squares, and then the same solution can be mirrored for white-colored squares.
05:14:47 <Sgeo> Not helpful: Driver not speaking English, so GPS was also in another language
05:14:53 <shachaf> Sgeo: was it numbered 1729
05:15:31 <quintopia> coppro: don't ask me to prove it, but i can see why it's intuitively optimal
05:16:35 <coppro> each color has 7 diagonals parallel to its main diagonal, so max 7 of each color
05:16:37 <quintopia> coppro: is it? not every bishop attacks the same number of squares
05:16:41 <Sgeo> Also, ended up waiting over an hour for a bus because the bus I wanted was 10 minutes early
05:16:58 <shachaf> perhaps the bus was on time and the world was 10 minutes late
05:17:21 <Sgeo> I like trains. Trains don't show up so early you miss them
05:17:39 <Sgeo> Train stations also have nice billboards indicating when the train is late
05:18:08 <coppro> trains might show up early in rare circumstances. But they don't leave early
05:18:22 <coppro> unlike busses, have of whom don't know what a timepoint is
05:18:31 <coppro> (their drivers don't know either)
05:18:32 <kmc> *storms into cab with knife* drive this train to cuba!
05:18:40 <quintopia> coppro: ah, so it does. i didn't know off the top of my head the number of diagonals of one color in one direction
05:19:44 <kmc> Sgeo: http://instagram.com/p/gWkKveSLwH/
05:20:13 <Sgeo> Nowhen in particular too
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05:34:46 <kmc> zzo38: http://jerkcity.com/_jerkcity5444.html
05:36:29 <zzo38> kmc: Why does the filename start with an underscore?
05:36:43 <kmc> that is a fine question
05:36:47 <kmc> compare & contrast with http://jerkcity.com/jerkcity5444.html
05:36:56 <Bike> this is the web, it's a /resource/, not a file
05:37:25 <zzo38> O, that's what it means!
05:46:44 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/9skH9Qc.png
05:46:57 <Sgeo> zzo38: pretty sure Bike was making a sarcastic comment about web development
05:47:29 <Bike> kmc: ain't that the truth
05:48:26 <kmc> Bike: can you figure out why i was searching for Oryza ruderalis?
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06:42:26 <HackEgo> danddreclist 47: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:46:38 <zzo38> I did think of the plan what to do next, although I think I will require someone to enchant an object with a spell to recall it to someone's hand if they speak the command word.
06:47:33 <zzo38> (It doesn't matter what the object is, as long as it can support things sitting on top.)
06:48:21 <zzo38> I did think of other ways not involving magical things, but they either involve combination locks, which they don't have, or otherwise will be too slow.
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09:16:14 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diameter#Diameter_symbol literally has detailed instructions on which keys to press in order to enter the wrong codepoint
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09:48:54 <FreeFull> shachaf: On linux, altgr + o will give you ø, which is the letter rather than the diameter symbol
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09:52:24 <Jafet> Codepoints don't really exist, only glyphs. (Some of the emoji glyphs are almost in the flesh.)
10:20:54 <oerjan> <quintopia> zzo38: how many non-attacking bishops can you place on a chessboard? <-- obvious upper bound, check. simple way of achieving it, check.
10:21:23 <oerjan> ok, once you've split white and black squares.
10:23:42 <Jafet> Sorry, but your reply is a bit stale.
10:25:06 <oerjan> well i had to reply before getting to the spoilers, OBVIOYSLY
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10:55:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: huh? that doesn't have an obvious upper bound
10:55:21 <b_jonas> oerjan: not a sharp one at least
10:55:28 <b_jonas> the upper bound is really non-obvious
10:55:48 <b_jonas> the lower bound is, mind you
10:55:48 <oerjan> no it's not, once you count the diagonals
10:56:15 <b_jonas> (unlike the rook and queen versions, which do have obvious sharp upper bounds)
10:57:21 <oerjan> <coppro> each color has 7 diagonals parallel to its main diagonal, so max 7 of each color
10:57:38 <oerjan> i thought of the same thing before reading it
10:58:47 <FreeFull> It depends on the size of the chessboard
10:59:07 <FreeFull> Let me look up a standard sized one
11:00:04 <FreeFull> You can place at least 14 non-attacking bishops
11:00:34 <FreeFull> I don't know if you can place more
11:02:04 <FreeFull> You can fill up one side and then almost fill up the opposite side except for the corners
11:02:24 <oerjan> you can place 14 such that there is precisely one on each downwards white diagonal and one on each upwards black diagonal.
11:03:04 <oerjan> e.g. in the way you said (which is also the way i found)
11:04:24 <FreeFull> Technically, you could just completely fill the chessboard with white bishops
11:04:38 <FreeFull> Since they are the same colour, they won't attack each other
11:05:07 <FreeFull> I don't think that's what was meant though
11:06:35 <FreeFull> Assuming all bishops can attach each other, 14
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11:09:09 <oerjan> bishops are scheming bastards
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11:10:37 <oerjan> perhaps bishops of the same color _can_ attack each other, and that's why they're safely kept on different colors.
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11:11:43 <oerjan> it all makes sense now.
11:14:30 <oerjan> i think i've managed my first negative karma reddit comment. or alternatively, somehow managed to avoid any before now.
11:16:34 <oerjan> i somehow feel that would be vote cheating :P
11:16:41 <oerjan> (it's only at -1 though)
11:19:44 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1tpxxk/my_math_teacher_posted_this_i_need_your_help_guys/ceaenhx?context=3
11:20:52 <oklopol> "<FreeFull> Hmm, standard is 8*8" you don't know chess?
11:21:16 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
11:23:00 <FreeFull> oerjan: I can think of cases where the correct answer wouldn't be 0%, but the case on the board isn't one of those
11:23:37 <oklopol> i don't actually know where the karma thingie is shown
11:26:17 <oerjan> oklopol: just after the nickname
11:26:28 <oerjan> (also you bastards upvoted it :P)
11:31:38 <oerjan> i suppose the ui doesn't use the term karma anywhere.
11:32:18 <oerjan> actually it's (mostly) translated to norwegian so i wouldn't really know.
11:32:52 <Taneb> What do you guys think of the Lamdu programmming language thing that was on reddit the other day
11:33:45 <oerjan> i got this "not real haskell" reaction
11:34:13 <Taneb> oerjan, a lot of things aren't real haskell
11:35:25 <Taneb> But I know what you mean
11:37:34 <FreeFull> I am pondering making my caps lock into greek shift
11:37:56 <Taneb> Oooh, that sounds like a good idea
11:38:08 <FreeFull> And then shift+capslock can be capslock
11:38:27 <FreeFull> Or maybe make capslock be shiftlock, and then shift+capslock be greek shift
11:38:46 <FreeFull> If I really want to write cyrillic I'll switch keyboard layouts
11:43:51 <Taneb> I think I just heard thunder
11:44:37 <impomatic> I want that Mandelbrot Blanket :-)
11:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> you want shift+capslock to be capital greek letters surely
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13:06:18 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: If I want capitals I'll use shift when pressing the key
13:06:28 <FreeFull> greek shift is a toggle I think
13:12:11 <FreeFull> Hey, there is a new Mill Achitecture lecture video
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13:51:36 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of shogi variant? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSunknownoffpiec
13:53:13 <boily> good zzorning38. I never variated my shōgi yet.
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13:57:49 <boily> now, let's see if I barged in an ongoing conversation by correctly checking the logs...
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14:10:31 <boily> ... hoity-boily???
14:11:37 <fizzie> It's like hoity-toity, but boilier.
14:11:38 <quintopia> i tried Bon Martin on a south african guy named...yeah
14:14:16 <boily> quintopia: 'tis a sad world where Martinses can't be bon martined...
14:17:32 <quintopia> he said that bon means sight in bantu languages, but can also be used as a greeting
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14:26:31 <boily> `relcome yours_truly
14:26:34 <HackEgo> yours_truly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:20:25 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Guinness-certifies-world-s-largest-gingerbread-5028028.php is what I saw. <-- impressive, but not pure gingerbread...
15:20:35 <Vorpal> I feel using wood is cheating
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15:35:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder what the largest "real" gingerbread house actually is
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15:37:43 <Vorpal> Well this is interesting, turning on compositing in the window manager setting improved window moving performance a lot
15:37:56 <Vorpal> However, now resizing windows lags terribly
15:38:20 <boily> compositing still exists?
15:38:48 <Vorpal> I'm using MATE btw, so this is a metacity fork
15:38:54 <boily> as opposed to I thought it was a fad, and people got tired of all the wobbly windowing stuff.
15:39:28 <Vorpal> boily, yeah, I wish I could turn off the drop shadows...
15:39:46 <Vorpal> Can't find a setting for it
15:40:06 <fizzie> SteamOS has a xcompmgr-based compositor, or so I've heard.
15:42:23 <Taneb> Gunnerkrigg Court is getting creepy
15:42:31 <Vorpal> That is a web comic right?
15:43:22 <Vorpal> Hm, which custom android firmware to use... I would like to update from my old version of PAC (4.1.2) to something 4.3-based or such. Or at least 4.2.
15:46:39 <fizzie> I see you're a PAC man.
15:46:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, quite, the full name of the rom is actually PACman ROM
15:47:07 <Vorpal> so that was not as funny as you thought :P
15:47:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is so called because it is a mix of Paranoid Android, AKOP and CyanogenMod
15:47:41 <fizzie> (Does Pac-Man have a driver's license that says "Man, Pac" on it?)
15:49:07 <boily> I wish I could cyanogenise my phone. it isn't supported :(
15:49:53 <Vorpal> Oh god, using a third party custom kernel with the latest PAC doesn't work apparently. Screw that then
15:50:10 <Vorpal> I might just stay on 4.1.2 instead... Since everything pretty much works as it is.
15:50:42 <zzo38> Do custom Android systems include a command-shell and the ability to modify the permissions of installed programs (rather than only to view them)?
15:51:16 <Vorpal> zzo38, you can do that with xprivacy (an xposed framework module) on pretty much any non-MIUI system
15:51:50 <zzo38> What does MIUI mean?
15:52:10 <Vorpal> IIRC that is the stock motorola GUI framework thingy
15:52:58 <Vorpal> Well it is the stock GUI that some phone manufacturer added anyway, forgot which one
15:53:12 <Vorpal> Samsung has touchwiz, HTC has Sense. It is along those lines
15:54:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, anyway, xposed framework is awesome, it basically allows runtime patching the entire system, by hooking into early startup code and basically loading a module into every dalvik (the android java vm) process.
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16:00:24 <Vorpal> boily, what phone is that?
16:00:43 <fizzie> Recurring annoyance: when booted to Windows, the two (spinning-disk) Linux drives keep getting woken up, even when set "offline" in disk management. Both when anything "special" is happening (Windows Update is checking for updates, Steam wants to install DirectX for the billionth time) but also more or less randomly a few times every day.
16:01:45 <fizzie> Oh, and is also spins up the disks when told to shut down or go to sleep.
16:01:55 <fizzie> (Then it immediately spins them down again, naturally.)
16:02:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe it is checking SMART status wrt the random stuff?
16:02:21 <boily> Vorpal: HTC One V.
16:02:27 <Vorpal> I had smartmontools on linux spin up the windows disk
16:02:31 <Vorpal> boily, hm okay, no idea
16:02:39 <boily> (meanwhile, I'm compiling QT, and contributing to Climate Change...)
16:03:28 <Vorpal> Also you should totally buy some solar panels to offset your QT compiling
16:03:30 <boily> Vorpal: nah. stuck with wkhtmltopdf, and it won't output headers and footers if you don't use a custom version of QT.
16:04:18 <boily> a very obscure utility that converts html files over to PDF. it's used by the new reporting engine in OpenERP.
16:04:39 <boily> (imho, a very, very stupid move, marginally better than what they had before.)
16:04:42 <Vorpal> Never heard of OpenERP
16:04:47 <Vorpal> Why not use CUPS to print to PDF...
16:05:15 <boily> woah, woah! stop being logical! we're talking about Enterprise stuff here!
16:05:23 <fizzie> "wk" is presumably short for webkit?
16:05:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, I also had the GTK save/open dialog annoyingly spin up the Windows disk in Linux, but now that it's a SSD I don't mind so much.
16:05:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, Ah, use SSDs for EVERYTHING
16:06:01 <fizzie> I don't want to pay for 2*3 terabytes of SSD, really.
16:06:35 <Vorpal> Hm I wonder what an 1 TB SSD costs
16:07:05 <Vorpal> 53758 for a PCI Express SSD
16:07:19 <Vorpal> 8527 for the cheapest 1 TB SATA SSD
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16:08:31 <boily> ~eval 8527 / 6.0819
16:08:35 <boily> ~eval 8527 / 6.0819
16:08:36 <fizzie> 576.90 EUR (about 5200 SEK) for the cheapest 1TB SATA SSD (Samsung 840 EVO 1 TB 2.5" SATA3 Basic Retail) at the Finnish verkkokauppa.com shop.
16:09:01 <Vorpal> Hm the SSD in my work computer (Intel 520, 240 GB) costs 2075
16:09:29 <Vorpal> But we are upgrading to Intel 520 with 480 GB storage soon, which cost 3683
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16:09:50 <fizzie> I've seen some random guides on how to really disable a disk in Windows, but they all involved all kinds of nasty "uninstall drivers" kind of nonsense, and the one that seemed marginally less invasive didn't do anything.
16:10:54 <Vorpal> I can only find PCI Express SSDs above 2 TB
16:11:38 <fizzie> And a lot of the stuff are for people who actually want to keep their drive usable from Windows; I just want those completely turned off.
16:12:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could unplug them?
16:12:31 <fizzie> That would involve opening the computer for every single OS switch.
16:12:49 <fizzie> Some kind of a front-panel power switch could work, if someone makes that kind of thing.
16:12:51 <zzo38> Install a hardware switch then.
16:12:51 <Vorpal> Heh, Toshiba has a 1.6 TB SSD for around 50 000. SATA
16:13:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, doubt it for SATA
16:13:25 <Vorpal> You could write custom chipset drivers for windows
16:13:49 <fizzie> There was something you could do somewhat easily in device management to hide the disks, but then it doesn't ever spin them down either.
16:15:17 <Vorpal> I'm trying to figure out the point of Google Cloud Print... Can't find any
16:15:20 <fizzie> I think I saw some rather kludgly-looking batch file for a "programmatically spin down, then hide the disk" thing somewhere, though.
16:18:06 <impomatic> Would anyone here be interested in entering a Core War tournament? Also, if the tournament is held in Cambridge either in or near the computer museum, would anyone attend?
16:18:44 <Vorpal> Huh, turning on compositing made full screen flash video work again???
16:20:04 <boily> I like Flash. it has the loveliest, weirdestest bugs I ever seen.
16:22:35 <Vorpal> boily, yes previously it was sluggish when playing full screen
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17:19:52 <Taneb> I'm not too fond of the 5 days between Christmas and New Year's Eve
17:20:02 <Taneb> And I miss being at university
17:20:14 <Taneb> I've been playing Minecraft more than usual lately
17:20:56 <Taneb> Not anything interesting
17:21:03 <Taneb> I've been trying to learn Agda again
17:21:07 <Taneb> But it hasn't gone well
17:21:39 <quintopia> how do you go about learning a new lang
17:22:11 <Taneb> I'm not very good at learning new things
17:22:50 <Taneb> I've been meaning to learn Rust, too
17:22:51 <quintopia> but you've learned things in the past. how?
17:23:18 <Taneb> Well, with Haskell, I started by following LYAH while messing with it in GHCi
17:23:55 <Taneb> Once I thought I was getting better, I started posting some code I had written in this channel and letting elliott, oerjan, and shachaf shout at me
17:24:03 <Taneb> And now I feel pretty good at Haskell
17:24:12 <Taneb> Having learnt from their criticisms
17:24:47 <quintopia> guess you can't do that with agda, there being no one here versed enough in it to shout at you
17:25:03 <Taneb> I think letting yourself mess around, but letting others help you make your mess neater really helps you to learn
17:25:51 <Taneb> I don't even know what to do with Agda
17:26:10 <boily> that's a good enough reason.
17:26:12 <quintopia> well that might be your problem. if you don't know why you want to do it, you probably won't be very motivated to do it
17:26:23 <Taneb> Today I used to maybe prove that disjunction and conjunction formed a semiring
17:26:28 <Taneb> But then I don't know how it proved that
17:26:32 <Taneb> Or how I can use that proof
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17:42:45 <kmc> good morning #esoteric
17:43:09 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Fri Dec 27 09:43:09 2013
17:43:21 <kmc> i'm actually 1 hour ahead of there right now
17:43:22 <boily> good fternoon, kmc.
17:43:28 <kmc> but i don't update the clock on my vps when i travel
17:44:06 <kmc> yesterday went for a drive here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CONM_Independence_monument_2.jpg
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17:46:11 <boily> kmc: that looks like a nice place.
17:47:49 <boily> Taneb: suffering from universital cravings?
17:47:59 <boily> `relcome skrillex64
17:48:01 <HackEgo> skrillex64: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:48:29 <Taneb> boily, I'm just suffering right now
17:49:44 <kmc> boily: yep
17:49:46 * skrillex64 ( : m[T]x :: Closing Script ( º..ǹ... ) :: sCript : )
17:50:20 <Taneb> I am installing Rust 90 miles away
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17:50:54 <Taneb> This would be easier if I knew how to use Arch
17:51:00 <boily> what the technicolor fungot was that...
17:51:01 <fungot> boily: same url as before for new jar up yet?) publically acessible) later i tried clisp ( interpreted) chicken scripts, is there any haskell builtin to test whether one number is within the scope of python, i do
17:51:10 <kmc> `run echo 'ºêÒºÒÂ..ä»áÅéǹêÒÒ...' | iconv -t iso8859-1 | iconv -f tis-620
17:51:30 <boily> kmc: and how in fungot did you manage to guess it was tis-620...
17:51:30 <fungot> boily: not at all, since there are 3 syntax for integer literals. the semantics are like scheme, but that's an unfair generalization
17:51:38 <kmc> boily: chardet
17:51:45 <kmc> "Goodbye to N๊aa ... .."
17:51:47 <boily> Taneb: Arch, as in the VCS, or as in the distro?
17:52:03 <kmc> i was like "that can't be right" and then saw the .th hostname in the quit msg
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17:52:16 <Taneb> It would probably be much easier if I knew pacman (the package manager, not the game or the character)
17:52:25 <boily> kmc: oh hm. I obviously failed my spot check there...
17:52:52 <boily> Taneb: well. pacman -Syu to make your system up-to-date, pacman -S for installing stuff.
17:53:00 <Taneb> boily, I'm not a sudo-er
17:53:23 <boily> I don't have sudo installed on my machine. I just “su”, then do the Stuff that has to be Done.
17:53:25 <Taneb> Is there a way I could do it locally or something like that
17:54:03 <Taneb> Frankly I'm glad I'm not a sudo-er, I could probably set the machine on fire
17:54:26 <boily> eeeeeh... yes. the answer is most definitely yes, but I don't know how. I suspect a mixture of ABS and pacman is going to be involved.
17:54:37 <boily> you should ask in #archlinux, or check the wiki.
17:55:21 <Taneb> I... can't be bothered
17:55:24 <boily> settings machines on fire is an unusual and memorable experience. I... uhm... welll... I'm now scared of PSUs.
17:55:26 <kmc> `from-8bit ºêÒºÒÂ..ä»áÅéǹêÒÒ...
17:55:56 <kmc> `from-8bit ðòå÷åä íåä÷åä
17:56:14 <boily> dammit. doesn't work.
17:56:29 <Taneb> kmc, you know Rust, right? If I show you potential future rust programs in the future would you critique them?
17:56:32 <kmc> hmm that was supposed to be ПРЕВЕД МЕДВЕД
17:56:36 <kmc> Taneb: sure!
17:57:06 <kmc> Taneb: which version of the language & compiler are you using? I recommend sticking with master rather than the point releases, until 1.0
17:57:26 <kmc> I guess it is pretty hard to heuristically distinguish national 8-bit codes
17:57:29 <boily> Taneb: if you go fetch a package's PKGBUILD, you can redirect the compilation to a local repo.
17:57:42 <kmc> wonder if chardet uses any language-specific letter frequency data on long enough texts
17:58:02 <kmc> `from-8bit should pass through ascii characters
17:58:04 <HackEgo> should pass through ascii characters
17:58:05 <boily> Taneb: also, you could forget everything about packages, and just do “make && make install” to local from source, as in the Olden Days of Unix.
17:58:17 <Taneb> boily, that is what I am doing now
17:58:30 <kmc> `from-8bit büt whát døe§ it dó with űtf-8
17:58:33 <HackEgo> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 30 \ iconv: illegal input sequence at position 30 \ büt whát dře§ it dó with
17:58:38 <Taneb> But the source seems to be 16MB
17:58:49 <Taneb> And it is downloading sloooowlyyyyy
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17:59:29 <kmc> /home/keegan/proj/servo/servo/build.debug/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/src/compiler/rust/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/stage2/bin/rustc 0.9-pre (67d7be0 2013-10-29 12:02:59 -0700)
17:59:50 <kmc> ^ i don't install the toolchains, just run them out of dirs
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18:09:18 <Taneb> Reading Wikipedia about Rust, "Other features from Haskell, such as higher-kinded polymorphism, are not yet supported."
18:09:27 <Taneb> Is that planned, or is it not going to happen
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18:09:56 <kmc> I don't know that it's "planned" exactly, but if somebody did the work we would be happy to merge it
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18:11:04 <shachaf> that's a feature from haskell?
18:11:22 <shachaf> first list-comprehensions and now higher-kinded polymorphism! v. innovative.
18:11:37 <kmc> I think right now the core team is focusing on getting lots of smaller stuff fixed for the imminent 1.0 release
18:12:03 <kmc> HKP would be a pretty big change and is also backwards-compatible, so it's more likely to happen after 1.0
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18:23:07 <kmc> Taneb: note that polymorphism in Rust is implemented by compiling a separate version for each instantiation, which limits some of what can be done
18:23:38 <kmc> for example I think one couldn't really support higher-rank types, i.e. foralls in function parameter types
18:24:02 <Bike> how's haskell do it
18:24:05 <kmc> although you might be able to support types like runST :: (forall s. ST s a) -> a, because s is a phantom parameter to ST
18:24:35 <kmc> Bike: values in GHC Haskell have a uniform representation; they are always a pointer to a heap object whose first word is a pointer to an "info table"
18:24:53 <shachaf> Bike: http://spl.smugmug.com/Humor/Lambdacats/i-XwKHSBM/2/O/boxed%20cat%20has%20a%20uniform%20representation.jpg
18:24:56 <Bike> so it dispatches at runtime/
18:25:03 <kmc> it's not dspatch even
18:25:07 <shachaf> It doesn't dispatch at all.
18:25:11 <kmc> map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] has the same machine code regardless of what a and b are
18:25:13 <shachaf> It's just like a void * (except type-safe)
18:25:28 <kmc> because they are known to be 1 word in size
18:25:43 <kmc> and you can even force polymorphic values, with "seq" say, because that's done through that info table
18:26:08 <kmc> whereas Rust supports passing structures of various sizes by value, and has several types of heap allocation and other stuff
18:26:11 <shachaf> This means that unboxed types like Int# aren't really first-class.
18:26:13 <Bike> oh i was thinking of typeclasses since i don't know anything
18:26:22 <kmc> and also the low level focus means you *want* to specialize your polymorphic functions to specific types
18:26:31 <kmc> Bike: typeclasses are implemented by passing around a "dictionary"
18:26:59 <shachaf> @let data c *> a = c => Ctx a
18:26:59 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Illegal class assertion
18:27:00 <kmc> data EqDict a = EqDict { eq :: a -> a -> Bool }
18:27:32 <kmc> then a type like (Eq t) => Int -> t -> Int turns into EqDict t -> Int -> t -> Int
18:27:32 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f b
18:28:12 <shachaf> (==) :: a -> a -> Bool turns into eq :: EqDict a -> a -> a -> Bool.
18:28:29 <kmc> Bike: Scala has a mechanism for implicit parameters to functions, and one can use this to do typeclass-like things
18:28:56 <kmc> the main extra thing you get with typeclasses is that there's only one value of type EqDict t in scope at a time, so to speak
18:29:03 <shachaf> Does that let you do things like instance Eq a => Eq [a]?
18:29:37 <kmc> Bike: so if you build two binary search trees over element type T, you know they were built with the same Ord instance
18:29:45 <kmc> which means the binary search tree library can support efficient merges
18:30:07 <kmc> which you can't do when the ordering is an implicit parameter to every tree operation, with a value which could be different from time to time
18:30:22 <shachaf> Or the comparison function is part of the tree itself.
18:32:47 <kmc> but then you need to compare comparison functions to merge trees
18:33:03 <kmc> and extensional equality of functions is uncomputable of course -- but you might get away with intensional equality
18:34:35 <kmc> Bike: in Rust it's even the case that the shape of Option<T> depends on what T is
18:35:14 <kmc> if T is a non-nullable pointer (e.g. ~S or @S or &S), Option<T> is represented by a single pointer which might be null
18:35:30 <kmc> if it's a nullable pointer or an int or a struct or something, it's represented the way variants usually are
18:35:45 <kmc> with a tag word and a C-style union
18:36:24 <shachaf> does rust do fancy pointer tagging things
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18:36:30 <kmc> don't believe so
18:36:35 <kmc> although it gives you enough rope to do them yourself
18:36:53 <kmc> (we're not all guys btw)
18:37:03 <tswett> I'm using "guy" in the looser sense.
18:37:16 <kmc> well you don't singlehandedly decide what a word means
18:37:34 <Taneb> kmc, I'd say "guy" is becoming increasingly gender neutral, especially in the plural
18:37:50 <kmc> there is still much discussion about this (e.g. http://storify.com/jvns/guys-guys-guys) so I think it's better to avoid assuming it's gender-neutral for now
18:37:56 <kmc> but it's not a big deal or anything
18:38:51 <nooodl> "@b0rk In a personal context I also use "dude" regardless of gender but have been replacing it with gender-neutral "gurl" for balance lately."
18:42:27 <tswett> I use "guys" with a gender-neutral meaning.
18:42:35 <kmc> that's good
18:42:53 <kmc> however not everyone will understand it that way, and I like to err on the side of not alienating people
18:42:57 <tswett> Anyway, I smell an esolang.
18:43:05 <kmc> again, it's not a big deal
18:43:14 <tswett> Yeah, I guess it didn't occur to me that people might be alienated.
18:44:24 <Bike> http://www.scribd.com/doc/193957988/Virgil-Bucks-The-Revolutionary-Cybercurrency-On-The-Net meanwhile, in r bitcoin
18:44:54 <kmc> Bike: did you see https://medium.com/quinn-norton/f3db7e13e6e3
18:45:04 <Bike> i apologize for not understanding anything about polymorphs
18:45:12 <kmc> Bike: what about animorphs
18:46:07 <Bike> never read animorphs
18:46:13 <Bike> "Like everything the internet does, internet money is over-technical, over-engineered, probably not very well thought out, hilarious, profoundly male dominated, and eventually compared to Hitler" some good writing here
18:48:46 <kmc> Bike: don't apologize for not knowing stuff :/
18:48:56 <boily> Bike: it's... strangely spot-on.
18:49:27 <Bike> this is a good article
18:49:28 <nooodl> (stares at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gs2#Commands) this is a lotta work
18:49:37 <nooodl> oh no i messed something up
18:50:18 <Bike> i guess i am profoundly middle class
18:50:51 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:53:04 * boily is thwarted by Qt's Reluctantness and Anti-Compilable Features
18:53:17 <Bike> suburbs creep me out though
18:55:12 <Bike> i think they kind of remind me of the planet from a wrinkle in time
18:55:52 <boily> suffurbs. creepy, gloomy suburbs where every house is the same, every inflatable neighbour is the same, everything is drab and all you want is to get the fungout out.
18:56:06 <fungot> boily: i logged on. :) i think mine predates yours
18:56:19 <boily> fungot: probably so. America is young.
18:57:00 <fungot> shachaf: process 1 killed. it's a nice city in june or something else? an office suite, perhaps, it's weird that if you never use " foo fnord"
18:57:39 <Gregor> Is there a file format that's as feature-rich as tar or cpio but random-access and well-supported? Help me out here... I am literally considering .zip.xz.
18:57:49 <Bike> shachaf: http://25.media.tumblr.com/d72bee13510fed7fc967a18d5fbd97ba/tumblr_mye61rDDnV1r7mymoo1_1280.png
18:58:05 <Bike> Gregor: recoils in disgust
18:58:22 <boily> Bike: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
18:58:44 <tswett> What nice features do tar and cpio have?
18:58:57 <boily> Gregor: ÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆÆĦ!
18:59:02 <Gregor> tswett: Full support for all Unix garbage (modes, owner, etc)
18:59:29 <Gregor> I need something that can archive a Unix directory tree, but has a f***ing index.
18:59:33 <boily> Gregor: fuse with compression?
18:59:51 <tswett> Just put each individual file into a tar file and then put all the tar files into whatever your archive file format is.
19:00:20 <tswett> Whelp, I'm looking at a Bitcoin price graph, and now the long-term trend actually looks pretty clear.
19:00:25 <boily> Gregor: something like a .vmdk, btrfs-formatted, with lzo?
19:01:08 <Gregor> boily: That's... not terrible... enormously wasteful for a write-only filesystem, and requires root to create or extract which is a pain...
19:02:01 <boily> Gregor: you sure you need root? even with fuse and qemu and plenty of four-letter emulatory words?
19:02:40 <boily> (also, you could set-up a vagrant system, and create a zipping utility that scp stuff over to the VM)
19:03:00 <Gregor> boily: FUSE I can tolerate, if it needed qemu then that would defeat the purpose. I could just extract the whole archive in the time it'd take to launch a friggin' VM.
19:03:36 <tswett> Looks like on average, the price has multiplied tenfold every ten months. And the longest it's ever gone without posting a gain is... a mere 21 months.
19:03:40 <tswett> BUT. I SMELL AN ESOLANG.
19:03:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:03:53 <tswett> There are a bunch of objects. Objects can create objects and send messages to objects.
19:04:33 -!- w00tles has joined.
19:04:51 * boily gives an arrow, a bat and a pit to tswett
19:05:16 <tswett> Is it a crooked arrow?
19:06:44 -!- tromp_ has joined.
19:08:41 <boily> tswett: it is one that can travel one edge on a dodecahedron.
19:08:54 <tswett> Sounds pretty crooked to me.
19:09:13 <Taneb> tswett, that language feels like my misunderstanding of Smalltalk
19:09:44 <boily> tswett: http://wimrijnders.nl/other/befunge/wumpus.bf hth.
19:09:50 <kmc> that reminds me of my idea to make an esolang which has all the properties beginners think Haskell has
19:09:53 <tswett> Taneb: like Smalltalk, but with other stuff and without other stuff. Like, you know how Smalltalk message sends are really just procedure calls? These ones aren't.
19:10:09 <tswett> kmc: sounds neat. What properties are those, again?
19:10:30 <kmc> automatic memoization of functions
19:10:40 <kmc> type system which separates pure and impure functions
19:11:03 <kmc> also you have to solve a category theory exercise to do IO
19:12:07 <boily> CT is easy. understanding it is hard.
19:13:27 <Gregor> I'm still liking .zip.xz ...
19:13:32 <Gregor> (With zip -0 of course)
19:14:22 <oerjan> kmc: can you make monads actually be burritos twh
19:16:55 <tswett> So, lessee. Each object shall have one method and some local variables. There are a couple of things you can do. You can create another object. You can send a message to an object. And maybe you can use E's fancy "when" thing.
19:17:53 <tswett> In E, when you send a message to an object using an "eventual send" statement, the statement returns immediately, returning a reference to the object's response.
19:18:32 <tswett> Of course, by the time that happens, the object hasn't responded yet, so the reference isn't very usable.
19:18:44 <tswett> But once the object actually responds, *then* the reference becomes usable.
19:18:57 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:20:05 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
19:20:20 * kmc wasn't expecting that to work
19:20:53 <Bike> that would help
19:21:30 <tswett> What should I call this language...
19:22:12 <boily> tswett: you should call your language “Gregor's Answer”.
19:26:58 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:29:18 <Taneb> That's... actually a good name for this language
19:32:36 <oerjan> Taneb: 'The name of the language is called "Haddocks' Eyes"' hth
19:33:00 <tswett> So "Haddocks' Eyes" is the name of the name of the language?
19:38:00 <tswett> So, wait. It is the case that "The song is called Ways and Means" and that "The song is A-sitting on a Gate", right? So, uh...
19:38:29 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this kind of Famicom mapper? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_F
19:38:31 * oerjan hides behind a rock to avoid exploding brain matter
19:38:57 <tswett> So, "Ways and Means" and "A-sitting on a Gate" are both names. Using a name consists of referring to the name's referent; mentioning a name consists of referring to the name.
19:39:20 * boily shuts himself in a maple lodge
19:40:04 <tswett> All right. So, the phrasing gives the strong impression that the name "Ways and Means" is mentioned, whereas the name "A-sitting on a Gate" is used.
19:40:47 <oerjan> i am pretty sure the white knight would disagree with you. somehow.
19:41:35 <tswett> It's possible that when he says "The song is called Ways and Means", he's actually using the name "Ways and Means", and thus asserting that what the song is called is the reference of the name "Ways and Means".
19:41:52 <tswett> But, assuming my initial impression is correct...
19:42:17 <tswett> The White Knight refers to the song using the phrase "A-sitting on a Gate", but asserts that it is called "Ways and Means", and that its name is "The Aged Aged Man".
19:42:41 * oerjan digs a tunnel to get further away from the inevitable explosion.
19:43:11 -!- ^v has joined.
19:44:38 <tswett> So when referring to the song, there are three things we could reasonably call it: "A-sitting on the Gate" (what the Knight calls it), "Ways and Means" (what the Knight asserts that it is generally called), and "The Aged Aged Man" (what the Knight asserts its proper name is).
19:45:11 <tswett> I think it makes the most sense to refer to the song as "Ways and Means", since if that's what the song is generally called, then that's presumably the most recognizable thing by which to call it.
19:45:36 <tswett> Then, finally, the name "Haddocks' Eyes" refers to the name "The Aged Aged Man".
19:48:06 <boily> the chännel has become #eroteric.
20:02:13 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
20:03:13 <shachaf> who invented Tanebventions
20:03:40 <Taneb> He coined the term
20:04:20 <oerjan> the master of chimærventions
20:12:54 <tswett> Taneb has five genders, eh?
20:13:00 <shachaf> «Isn't category theory defined as "objects and arrows"? And a monad is just the category of types (or so I read somewhere).»
20:14:05 <tswett> You know, I can really only think of one name that has a name itself, and that's the tetragrammaton.
20:14:39 <Bike> i hear objects are just morphisms on the category of noumenon
20:15:13 <Bike> i also hear that the name of the rose is actually just "Rose". lovely woma
20:15:14 <tswett> Concepts are just Kan extensions.
20:15:34 <tswett> More like Tyler or like Lalonde?
20:16:06 -!- tromp_ has joined.
20:17:55 <Bike> i can't think of any either, other than the tetragrammaton and the one due to shakespeare
20:18:52 <tswett> What's the one due to Shakespeare?
20:19:13 <Bike> a rose by any other name
20:19:16 <kmc> shachaf: whatchaf
20:19:43 <Taneb> tswett, one of them is "male"
20:19:45 -!- conehead has joined.
20:19:49 <Taneb> The other four are secret
20:19:50 <shachaf> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1tr6ur/wolf_goat_cabbage_solving_simple_logic_problems/ gan
20:20:02 <shachaf> the article it links to is not much better
20:20:22 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:21:00 <Bike> oh, apparently 'the name of the rose' isn't related to shakespeare, silly me
20:21:58 -!- polytone has changed nick to monotone.
20:23:12 <shachaf> and also i like how everyone seems to link to http://adit.io/posts/2013-04-17-functors,_applicatives,_and_monads_in_pictures.html
20:24:00 <Bike> i guess people don't usually talk about names independently of their referents enough for the use of a name rather than "[referent]'s name" to be necessary
20:24:49 <quintopia> does anyone know the name of the wind kthx
20:24:59 * kmc takes a big hit from a bong shaped like douglass hofstadter's head
20:26:20 <shachaf> Bike: imo come up with a name which names itself
20:29:25 <oerjan> s/OMEN/YM you greek-latin mixing fiend
20:30:01 <shachaf> is greek-latin like pig-latin
20:30:16 <tswett> oerjan meant to say "you greek–latin mixing fiend".
20:30:25 <tswett> It's a really easy typo to make.
20:30:52 <shachaf> tswett meant to say «oerjan meant to say "you greek—latin mixing friend".»
20:31:17 <HackEgo> [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R]
20:31:46 <tswett> shachaf: you filthy offspring of unspecified gender of a dog of unspecified gender
20:32:03 <HackEgo> [U+00E9 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT]
20:32:07 <oerjan> are these genders included in taneb's secret list
20:32:18 <tswett> oerjan: how should I know?
20:32:23 <Taneb> I will neither confirm or deny that
20:32:47 <tswett> I'm trying to think of a word or short phrase meaning "reference upon whose resolution a piece of code will be queued to execute".
20:34:27 <tswett> "Promise" here just means "unresolved reference".
20:34:30 <oerjan> both of those seem backwards somehow
20:40:03 <tswett> Oh yeah, "nomen" is Latin, isn't it.
20:43:03 <tswett> Whelp, I just finished writing the semantics for my unfinished version of Gregor's Answer.
20:43:24 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:44:15 <tswett> Maybe I should make a language called .
20:44:36 <kmc> `paste bin/unidecode
20:44:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/unidecode
20:44:46 <tswett> The name of the language's name would, of course, be "Unicode private use character U+E000".
20:44:52 <kmc> also for me that shows up as a penguin <3
20:44:55 <Bike> a language whose name is f8ff in whatever encoding
20:45:30 <tswett> How about , what does that show up as for you guys.
20:45:50 <tswett> I wonder if there's a way I could copy an invalid code point to the clipboard...
20:46:41 <tswett> You know, I could probably set this text box's character encoding to Latin1.
20:47:12 <kmc> for me is a big squiggly thing that's like 5 times wider than a usual character
20:47:16 <kmc> (proportional font natch)
20:48:08 <kmc> is a benzene ring
20:48:21 <HackEgo> [U+00FF LATIN SMALL LETTER Y WITH DIAERESIS] [U+00F8 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH STROKE]
20:48:26 <kmc> is a keyboard key icon with a GNU on it
20:49:59 <kmc> penguins, flowers, italicized greek, ligatures, cantillated hebrew, strikethrough latin, gnus, hangul jamo, georgian script (??), box drawin' characters
20:50:28 <kmc> cause I can't identify it for sure
20:50:31 <kmc> without Effort
20:50:57 -!- w00tles has quit (Quit: quit).
20:52:32 -!- tswett_ has joined.
20:52:51 <Bike> are you a dried chicken wing
20:53:15 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ print u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode
20:53:44 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ print u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode
20:53:52 <HackEgo> [U+00F8 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH STROKE] [U+00FF LATIN SMALL LETTER Y WITH DIAERESIS]
20:55:51 -!- tswett_ has quit (Client Quit).
20:56:23 -!- tswett_ has joined.
20:57:07 <tswett_> Yeah baby. We're in business.
20:57:22 <b_jonas> Bike: Somebody set us up the bomb.
20:57:26 <HackEgo> [U+00A1 INVERTED EXCLAMATION MARK] [U+00E9 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE]
20:58:42 <tswett> Now I kinda wonder, like, what if I, like...
20:58:58 <Bike> smoked a bong /made out of/ hofstater's head?
20:59:28 <tswett> That just gave me an error message.
21:00:39 <tswett> I typed 猫 into the thing that's supposed to convert UTF-8 to Latin1.
21:00:48 <tswett> Thing is, I guess that's not really possible.
21:01:07 <Bike> it's not in latin1 is it
21:01:13 <Bike> or, in fact, latin
21:01:24 <tswett> I don't think ¡ is Latin either, but it's in Latin1.
21:01:50 <Bike> it's in a romance language at least.
21:02:33 <HackEgo> [U+00C3 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH TILDE] [U+0083 DUNNO]
21:03:00 <HackEgo> [U+00C3 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH TILDE] [U+0083 DUNNO] [U+00C2 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX] [U+0083 DUNNO]
21:03:31 -!- tswett_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:04:18 <zzo38> I did write a program, which can do some things including convert UTF-8 to Latin1.
21:04:42 <kmc> `from-8bit 猫
21:04:44 <HackEgo> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0 \ iconv: conversion from `None' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information. \ iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0
21:04:54 <kmc> none encoding with left beef
21:05:41 <tswett> Lessee, in raw binary, that's 11000011 01000011 11000010 01000011, but in UTF-8 that's 11000011 10000011 01000011 11000011 10000010 01000011.
21:05:59 <tswett> Ah, nope, 8 is 1000, not 0100.
21:06:48 <Bike> "raw" nothin, i need to see the outgoing square wave
21:07:05 <boily> back from an intense session of XML with <![CDATA[]]>. may I ask why are you converting cats?
21:07:27 <tswett> So 11000011 is encoded as 11000011 10000011, and 10000011 is encoded as 11000010 10000011, and 11000010 is encoded as 11000011 10000010, and 10000010 is encoded as 11000010 10000010. Right?
21:07:43 <tswett> Bike: on which medium?
21:08:46 <tswett> Yeah, but which twisted pair?
21:09:24 <Bike> the one from your computer to whatever
21:09:39 <tswett> To my external hard drive?
21:10:06 <tswett> All right, send me an oscilloscope and a spare USB Mini cable.
21:10:11 <boily> ok. asking why cats are twisted may not be the right enquiry. this conversation has drifted far away from my Earthly needs. I shall drink a glass of OJ, resume my album, and coast along.
21:11:54 <fizzie> µ isn't very Latin, but is also in Latin-1.
21:12:53 <shachaf> fizzie: Sure, but μ isn't.
21:13:43 <fizzie> I suppose the MICRO SIGN belongs to everyone.
21:14:08 <Bike> you know what sucks? µµg
21:15:22 <Bike> used by certain horrible people instead of nano-
21:15:37 <Bike> or femtogram? w/e
21:17:48 -!- tromp_ has joined.
21:18:04 <boily> fungot: do you use scruples and minims?
21:18:04 <fungot> boily: it is. :p))) name))
21:18:16 <boily> fizzie: your bot. it is mocking me.
21:18:30 <fungot> shachaf: i'm sure that all the cps in the first hl, it seems well suited to objects, not classes, lectures
21:19:57 <boily> fungot: what are hles?
21:19:57 <fungot> boily: that kinda sucks
21:20:14 <shachaf> fungot: be nice to boily, fungot
21:20:14 <fungot> shachaf: but if you're at ip=2, the interp will be in the " strong set", you have 1 message.
21:20:40 <shachaf> fungot: you've convinced me. niceness to boily is entirely gratuitous
21:20:40 <fungot> shachaf: well anyway! this is classic :) anyone know a fast algorithm in c ( because i'll already have implementations of it
21:21:04 <shachaf> fizzie: your bot is rather full of itself
21:21:24 <fizzie> What else would it be full of?
21:21:24 <shachaf> wait, maybe this is the setup for a joke
21:21:35 <shachaf> fungot: yes, i know a fast algorithm in c
21:21:50 <zzo38> Let's see if my plan what I have to do next in a Dungeons&Dragons game is good enough!
21:22:19 <zzo38> boily: Do YOU know what it is?
21:22:57 <tswett> fungot: hey, you know, I really like hanging out with you.
21:22:57 <fungot> tswett: the func kylew just refered to is the first argument
21:23:02 <boily> (btw, I DMed a bout of Paranoia last Sunday. it was deadly :D)
21:25:05 <zzo38> boily: Yes I mean the plan. (If you don't know, I can tell you, but maybe I forgot something important too)
21:25:37 <zzo38> (Such as, what happens in case of something other than what I expected, or am unable to do for some reason)
21:26:13 <boily> zzo38: could you tell me the plan that is meant, and the Somethings that are Othered, the Forgotten Expectations and Everything Else?
21:27:53 <zzo38> What I need to do, is find an area of plains in the middle of nowhere with nobody else around, make some cage or walls or something so that it is possible to see and hear through but not to walk through, bury the anti-magic amulet upside-down, attached to a trapdoor, hidden with grass, slightly open so that when it is stepped on it will close, ...
21:28:52 <zzo38> ... Put another object underneath which will support it, and enchant it with a spell allowing anyone in range who speaks the command word to retrieve it, and then force the prisoner and captain into the cage, lock it, and run away, ...
21:30:22 <boily> is that a weird analog to the Schrödingcat?
21:31:01 <zzo38> ... Make some barrier or something to assure that they will not step on the patch of the grass where it is hidden until we run away, and then they will step into the circle to un-mind-switch, and the captain will then say something which happens to contain the command word (but he doesn't know that is what it is).
21:31:45 <boily> oh. I was fearing it wasn't as devious as it seemed. proceed with your Terrifying Plan, then...
21:33:01 <zzo38> This may require some psychology to know what we expect the captain to say and to manipulate the situation into such a phrase.
21:33:08 <Taneb> kmc, can you tell me why this won't compile? http://lpaste.net/3941835973981110272
21:33:26 <kmc> can you tell me what the error message is?
21:34:02 <zzo38> But before all of that, we may need to handcuff them together. I have already tied up both of them, but that isn't good enough.
21:34:13 <boily> zzo38: a traditional Batman Gambit.
21:34:14 <Taneb> kmc, unexpected failure
21:34:24 <kmc> internal compiler error??
21:34:39 <kmc> anyway I think you want: use std::io::{stdin, ReaderUtil}; ...; stdin.read_char()
21:34:48 <Taneb> I think it may be because I completely misread a lot of the tutorial
21:34:57 <kmc> when a function is documented as taking self or &self etc, you call it using OOP method call syntax
21:35:01 <zzo38> boily: Yes I suppose it is a bit like a Batman Gambit, but far more confusing.
21:35:18 <kmc> and to call such a method from a trait, you need to bring the trait into scope, even though the name isn't explicitly used
21:35:20 -!- glogbackup has joined.
21:35:33 <boily> glelllolllolllelllogbackup.
21:35:47 <boily> zzo38: and why the requirement to the handcuffs?
21:36:08 <zzo38> boily: So that they are forced to remain next to each other.
21:36:28 <Taneb> Well, now it gives me an actual error
21:36:31 <boily> zzo38: indeed. only one trap, and you wouldn't want one of them staying untrapped, eh?
21:36:42 <Taneb> failed to find an implementation of trait std::io::Reader for extern "Rust" fn() -> @std::io::Reader:'static
21:37:37 <kmc> oh you need to call stdin()
21:37:41 <kmc> to get the object which represents stdin
21:37:43 <kmc> i don't remember why :/
21:37:57 <kmc> you're using the old @-ful IO stuff
21:37:58 <zzo38> boily: Well, I intend to set the captain free afterward if the plan works correctly. But I won't free the other guy.
21:38:03 <kmc> so all this code will be scrapped when you upgrade Rust
21:38:23 <Taneb> Serves me right for trying to learn an indev language :)
21:38:39 <kmc> although the /concepts/ are pretty much fixed at this point
21:38:58 <kmc> and the concepts are unique enough that they require some learning
21:39:10 <kmc> it's not like learning Python when you know Ruby or whatever
21:39:20 <boily> zzo38: so you need an unhandcuffer somewhere.
21:39:41 <zzo38> boily: That will be easily enough to do afterward, I expect.
21:40:00 <Taneb> Well, my code works now
21:40:05 <kmc> congratsneb
21:40:46 <Taneb> (trying to solve http://rosalind.info/problems/dna/ )
21:41:47 <zzo38> But there are things to consider, such as the range of the anti-magic, which is 60ft.
21:42:13 <Bike> hehh, it has "Translating RNA into Protein" but the actual problem is way easier than the title makes you think
21:42:22 <kmc> yeah write a protein folding simulator
21:42:40 <kmc> Taneb: would you like style criticism on your code
21:43:01 <zzo38> And it may be necessary to see what is happening from remotely, somehow. This is to see who is dead and who is switched and stuff like that.
21:43:04 <Bike> cool little site though
21:43:30 <Taneb> Bike, for practising programming I'd rate it much higher than Euler
21:43:37 <kmc> loop { match my_stdin.read_char() { '\n' => break, ... } }
21:43:41 <kmc> that avoids the need for buf
21:43:52 <Bike> Taneb: it's true, euler involves a lot more math
21:43:53 <boily> ~eval intercalate " " . map (show . length) . group . sort $ "AGCTTTTCATTCTGACTGCAACGGGCAATATGTCTCTGTGTGGATTAAAAAAAGAGTGTCTGATAGCAGC"
21:43:58 <zzo38> Since there is also the possibility that the prisoner is lying and he may be able to kill the captain. But, I do have a backup plan in that case too!
21:44:13 <Bike> :t intercalate
21:44:24 <boily> zzo38: 60ft radius of AM? that's more than enough.
21:44:24 <zzo38> Did I miss anything else important, perhaps?
21:44:27 <Bike> i think that may be cheating.
21:44:37 <boily> zzo38: and what is your contingency plan?
21:44:39 <kmc> i might also use a hashmap rather than 4 variables, but that's something a matter of taste
21:44:58 <boily> zzo38: eeeeh... you really need a roof over your cage.
21:45:01 <Taneb> kmc, with only 4 variables, it doesn't feel worth it
21:45:03 <Bike> also, totally impractical for sequences of realistic length :p
21:45:04 <zzo38> boily: Yes I know it is more than enough, but if it is too large, that can be a problem too; the exact range will be important.
21:45:05 <Taneb> Any more, and I'd switch
21:45:07 <boily> zzo38: also, dig-proof your trap.
21:45:36 <kmc> in master rust there is println!(..) which does the fmt! for you
21:45:40 <shachaf> kmc: does rust refer to things by their implementations
21:45:41 <zzo38> O, yes I need the roof, I suppose.
21:45:41 <kmc> also the formatting language has completely changed
21:45:44 <Bike> http://rosalind.info/problems/mprt/ now that's more like it
21:45:47 <kmc> shachaf: there are traits too
21:45:51 <kmc> but i don't remember if hashmap uses the trait
21:46:04 <kmc> i mean that there is a trait for unordered containers or w/e
21:46:04 <shachaf> oh maybe that's what you mean
21:46:09 <zzo38> And, how do you mean, dig-proof? It isn't really a trap; it is supposed to be a kind of defense mechanism.
21:46:33 <Bike> hey look! de bruijn!
21:46:45 <Bike> edit distance is way down there tho
21:46:49 <kmc> it's now more like Python's str.format method
21:47:04 <Bike> i might have to do these
21:47:08 <kmc> which is p. cool
21:47:52 <Bike> it's cool how close bioinformatics is to information theory stuffs
21:48:03 <zzo38> My backup plan is that if the prisoner kills the captain, have someone go near the cage and speak another phrase which happens to contain the command word, and then call me and the royal wizard over, to deal with it.
21:48:03 <boily> zzo38: hmm... when we D&D, we always find a way to severely compromise the physical integrity of surrounding things, whatever material they may be made of.
21:48:15 <kmc> I tend to rant about how format strings should be replaced with some richer data type
21:48:23 <kmc> but I realized that you'd have to re-build all the internationalization tools
21:48:36 <kmc> format strings are the bread and butter of i18n, which is largely performed by non-programmers
21:48:50 <zzo38> boily: Can you explain more about that please?
21:48:52 <boily> zzo38: so the intent is to have the prisonner die in a discreet manner, surrounded by Green Pastures.
21:48:57 <Bike> you use format strings for internationalization?
21:49:11 <kmc> the syntax used by Python .format() and new Rust fmt! allows the format string to permute its arguments, which is important for i18n
21:49:18 <shachaf> in that case why aren't they called forinternationalization strings
21:49:27 <zzo38> boily: NO. The intent is to force him to un-mind-switch with the captain; the captain wants his body back.
21:49:31 <boily> zzo38: explosions, magical mishaps, stupid self-sacrifices with energy buildups, mutations...
21:49:39 <kmc> hungarian fori18ns
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21:49:55 <Bike> that was a serious question i don't know about i18n
21:50:07 <zzo38> And in my plan I have just the only small window of magic in order to prevent other magical stuff.
21:50:09 <kmc> Bike: yeah, someone has to translate all the strings used in the UI
21:50:25 <kmc> and they'll often be format strings because stuff gets interpolated
21:50:33 <zzo38> The secondary objective is the prisoner to be dead.
21:50:44 <Bike> the only thing i know about is that one C library that defines a _ macro or suchlike
21:50:50 <kmc> and different languages put things in different orders sometimes
21:51:11 <kmc> bicyclidine
21:51:11 <boily> zzo38: AAAAAAAAAAH! sudden illumination. “mind switch.” I now understand.
21:51:27 <kmc> `addquote <boily> zzo38: AAAAAAAAAAH! sudden illumination. “mind switch.” I now understand.
21:51:32 <HackEgo> 1149) <boily> zzo38: AAAAAAAAAAH! sudden illumination. “mind switch.” I now understand.
21:51:55 <Bike> so you have println(_("fuck your shit")) and the _ takes care of making a list of what needs to be translated, and replacing it, or... whatever
21:52:02 <Gregor> squashfs is my new favorite archival format.
21:52:05 <Bike> println isn't real c but, fuck it
21:52:20 <kmc> #define println puts
21:52:33 <kmc> #define create creat
21:52:42 <Taneb> kmc, final code: http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/dna.rs.txt any more tips/
21:52:57 <kmc> "apparently future rust does this nicer." i'm not sure about that :3
21:53:17 <kmc> it looks good Taneb
21:53:35 <kmc> do we have a += operator? i forgot
21:53:44 <lambdabot> (Num a, MonadState s m) => ASetter' s a -> a -> m ()
21:53:50 <kmc> i think you don't need the semicolon after match { ... };
21:53:56 <kmc> cause it ends the enclosing block
21:54:21 <shachaf> what if during the month after february but before april, you could use march { ... } blocks
21:54:29 <shachaf> but it would be a syntax error otherwise
21:55:03 <Taneb> kmc, there is a +=
21:55:34 <kmc> i think for reasons
21:55:39 <shachaf> well, i mean, who likes ++
21:55:39 <kmc> hm i can't remember
21:56:00 <shachaf> (who's *crementing whom here??)
21:56:07 <kmc> I do know that there was concern over letting people overload += because you might make x += y behave semantically differently from x = x + y, but you probably *do* want them to be different for efficiency
21:56:09 <zzo38> boily: Ah, but there is more! I will need to blindfold them at first, while arranging the area for the box in the grass. Since, we need to make them remain in the range of the anti-magic field.
21:56:25 <kmc> say x and y are huge matrices, it is better to add the elements in-place if you can
21:56:43 <Taneb> kmc, that is still semantically equivalent, just not operationally, right?
21:57:07 <kmc> but there's no way for the lang to verify that your += and + overloads are consistent
21:57:17 <kmc> the C++ answer is "sucks to be you then"
21:57:28 <kmc> but Rust people are less happy with that answer?
21:57:34 <kmc> gotta go ttyl
21:58:11 <boily> zzo38: will you have to use timed, self-disintegrating blindfolds?
21:58:28 <boily> (meanwhile, disappearing toward some random movie.)
21:58:30 <zzo38> boily: No, removing them by hand should be OK.
21:58:43 <boily> zzo38: more reliable.
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21:59:11 <zzo38> Hopefully, do all of you others understand this plan now?
21:59:18 <zzo38> Or is it too confusing?
22:00:18 <zzo38> Did I miss anything, or is there another question to consider, or something else? There may be something I haven't anticipated yet.
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22:03:09 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/rna.rs.txt
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22:03:40 <Taneb> Please anyone make ANY criticism you can think of
22:03:58 <Bike> do you not care about recieving invalid dna?
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22:09:19 <Bike_> with something that simple is there much to criticize
22:09:37 <Taneb> Bike_, I want to make sure I'm not doing anything awful
22:09:51 <Taneb> I mean, in a Haskell program that long I could do like 100 awful things
22:12:25 <Bike_> well everything i can think of is boring stuff like 'what about lowercase letters' and CRLF handling
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22:12:37 <Bike> you could skip to making more general transducers i guess
22:13:05 <Taneb> Bike, the input is very restricted. Not sure about crlf handling, though
22:13:44 <FreeFull> Taneb: That looks suspiciously like Rust
22:14:01 <Taneb> FreeFull, there is a good reason for that
22:14:15 <Bike> in my amazingly awesome experience with bio lab code, line endings are an everpresent nightmare, so be prepared??
22:14:36 <Taneb> Also I've had something in my eye for like two hours
22:14:47 <FreeFull> Taneb: Also looks suspiciously like converting DNA to RNA in a Rosalind problem
22:15:17 <Bike> right, general transducer.
22:15:49 <Taneb> FreeFull, my goal is to learn rust, not to solve Rosalind problems :)
22:16:05 <Bike> i feel like i shoudl complain about 'converting' there since you're totally ignoring primary transcription
22:16:14 <FreeFull> Taneb: Project Euler too mathy?
22:16:32 <Taneb> FreeFull, Project Euler I find is awful for learning a language
22:16:52 <FreeFull> Taneb: Right now, isn't it that what breaks out of the loop is an error?
22:17:34 <FreeFull> Well, you've got an infinite loop with a match in it
22:17:41 <FreeFull> And then a statement after that
22:18:14 <FreeFull> I assume you mean for that statement to be reached at some point
22:18:15 <Bike> break breaks out of the loop, rather than signaling an error
22:18:40 <FreeFull> I didn't notice that the \n case broke out of the loop
22:18:58 <FreeFull> Taneb: What happens when the loop gets EOF?
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22:51:38 <Taneb> FreeFull, I am not sure
22:51:55 <FreeFull> Taneb: Try it out, pipe it a file without a newline
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22:52:28 <FreeFull> Taneb: You could also handle lowercase input
22:53:05 <Taneb> Yeah, it fails if there isn't a newline
22:53:49 <FreeFull> Well, you could try to fix that
22:55:49 <Taneb> I don't know where to begin :(
22:57:28 <Taneb> It... sort of works now
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22:58:36 <Bike> replace t's with u's
22:58:47 <Taneb> http://rosalind.info/problems/rna/
22:59:17 <quintopia> it would be more useful if it replaced rna sequences with correctly folded sequences of amino acids! :P
22:59:34 <Bike> there's a later one about turing rna into primary structure yes
23:00:07 <Bike> i wonder if there's anything about regulatory networks and/or ribozyme kinda crapola
23:00:07 <Taneb> quintopia, baby steps
23:00:27 <Taneb> Anyway, the issue is that it can't tell if it's at eof until it's tried to read
23:00:36 <Taneb> And it's reading in UTF32
23:00:58 <Taneb> So, it tries to read a character, gets nonsense 4 times
23:01:08 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pseudoknot.svg so easy
23:02:07 <tswett> In BNF, [] denotes something optional and {} denotes something repeated zero or more times, right?
23:02:23 <Taneb> kmc, library documentation is lacking in places
23:02:35 <Bike> 'The general problem of predicting lowest free energy structures with pseudoknots has been shown to be NP-complete.[5][6]' sonova
23:03:38 <Bike> i only know the reverse process, which you can do by dumping shit in bleacch
23:03:40 <Bike> fuck you physics
23:04:52 <quintopia> i like that this website has the same name as my grandmother
23:05:24 <shachaf> your grandfather's name is wikipedia?
23:05:53 <Taneb> FreeFull, it works now :)
23:06:02 <quintopia> i said nothing about my grandfather, plus you can't talk about him cuz he's still alive
23:06:30 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/rna.rs.txt
23:07:26 <Taneb> I guess I accidentally duplicated the eof test
23:07:27 <Bike> do you need that second branch/
23:07:39 <Taneb> The first one should be removed
23:08:06 <Bike> eh, really? i'd remove the second
23:08:13 <Bike> what happens on an empty file, for one
23:08:19 <Taneb> Nah, because it needs to have read a character to tell if it's eof
23:08:22 <Taneb> Rust is weird, man
23:08:38 <Bike> what happens on an empty file, then?
23:08:57 <Taneb> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/0.8/std/io/trait.Reader.html#fn.eof
23:09:01 <Taneb> Bike, empty output
23:09:20 <tswett> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gregor%27s_Answer – there, doesn't this spec suck.
23:09:54 <Bike> seems more like an error checkk. weird.
23:10:10 <tswett> So, you can create objects, and send them messages, and such.
23:10:19 <Bike> ....whiiiiich is exactly how feof works.
23:10:41 <tswett> It would be nice if you could create an object representing a pair of two other objects.
23:11:11 <Bike> shouldn't it just be the usual "object that understands fst and snd messages" shit
23:11:31 <tswett> Bike: thing is, each object only has one method.
23:12:00 <Bike> eh, so branch on message content?
23:12:12 <tswett> There's no obvious way to branch.
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23:15:11 <tswett> x{hel low orl d} – sets x to an object that, when called, returns nothing.
23:15:26 <tswett> Slightly, slightly more interesting:
23:15:46 <tswett> x{@} – sets x to an object that, when called, returns its argument.
23:19:25 <tswett> When called, returns whatever it returned the last time it was called.
23:20:01 <tswett> Yeah, that'll do it, if you just expand it a little bit: a{ i{@} ziy yix xi@ y }. Returns whatever it returned the penultimate time it was called.
23:20:42 <tswett> A two-element queue can certainly be used as an ordered pair.
23:21:30 <tswett> "True" and "false" can be implemented as objects that take one of these queues and return either its first or its second element.
23:26:31 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/revc.rs.txt
23:35:25 <Bike> still think you could/should write general transduction
23:36:55 <Bike> you've practically done it anyway
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23:45:08 <Bike> http://joelgrus.com/2013/12/24/why-programming-language-x-is-unambiguously-better-than-programming-language-y/ more like loglan than klingon
23:49:41 <Bike> Fiora: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ao/abstract.cfm?uri=ao-52-27-6735 this looks coolio
23:50:43 <Bike> supposedly 'outperforms' jpeg
23:50:50 <Bike> whatever that means
23:53:05 <Gregor> JPEG-2000 outperforms JPEG. Still nobody gives a shit.
23:54:11 <kmc> did you know that JPEG supports arithmetic coding but nobody uses it because \rainbow{PATENTS}
23:55:17 <shachaf> next they'll patent hugs and kittens
23:55:47 <quintopia> shachaf: i already did. super hard to enforce tho.
23:56:09 <fizzie> Rainbow patents, are they like a space-efficient way of patenting huge areas of patentable things?
23:57:40 <fizzie> Like a four-gig rainbow patent can cover all possible software patents up to 32 pages long and so on.
23:58:16 <tswett> We claim: 1. A method whereby a process is applied in a circumstance, the process having been chosen with regard to the circumstance so as to achieve a result possessing some quality.
23:58:18 <quintopia> i feel like there's already a form for that at the patent office
23:58:30 <tswett> 2. The method of claim 1, where the quality is a desirable quality.
23:58:58 <tswett> 3. The method of claim 3, where the circumstance is the desirability of an object.
23:59:12 <tswett> 4. The method of claim 3, where the process creates the desired object.
23:59:22 <tswett> Uh, claim 3 should refer to claim 1, not claim 3.
23:59:48 <tswett> 5. The method of claim 1, where the process is chosen because of its similarity to another process.
00:00:10 <tswett> 6. The method of claim 5, where the second process is a process that has been successful in the past.
00:00:41 <tswett> 7. The method of claim 1, where the process is chosen based on an analysis of the predicted results of the process.
00:01:13 <tswett> 8. The method of claim 7, where the analysis involves deductive and/or inductive logic.
00:02:25 <tswett> 9. The method of claim 8, where the logic is used to infer—
00:02:50 <tswett> Though, yeah, that one typo gives me an idea.
00:04:36 <tswett> Perhaps by filing a patent on this claim, we could end up with a patent that could be enforced against anything:
00:04:39 <tswett> 1. The method of claim 1.
00:15:07 <Jafet> Is the irc log a valid repertory of prior art
00:15:45 <tswett> I'd say it probably is, really.
00:29:34 <coppro> tswett: is this a real patent? it should be
00:30:16 <tswett> Submit it to the patent office and list me as a co-inventor.
00:38:25 <zzo38> Is there a file to download the entire SDL 1.x documentation into my computer?
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02:00:29 <Taneb> ...I live within 50 miles of where half of my great-great grandparents were born
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02:38:57 <quintopia> your family should get out more :P
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03:11:02 <Sgeo> http://phys.org/news/2012-09-scientists-renowned-uncertainty-principle.html this... doesn't sound likely to be accurate
03:11:21 <Sgeo> Does anyone have more information?
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03:17:01 <Bike> if i'm reading it right it's not actually talking about the momentum-position inequality
03:18:27 <Bike> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=6668117941979885066 anyway, more info for ya
03:18:39 <Bike> i am unhappy that phys rev lett wants me to sign in just to see citations
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03:19:57 <Bike> kmc: why does anyone even like pg (reading responses to your hacker tweet)
03:20:30 <kmc> he's smart, he understands his industry, and he is very good at pandering to young smart people with no perspective
03:20:34 <Bike> "startup gospel" is a terrifying phrase
03:21:29 <Bike> my impression of him is mostly from #lisp, because every few weeks a wide-eyed twenty-something comes in and talks about wanting to do everything like pg, and then leaves in a huff when we talk about bad style or whatever stupid thing
03:21:46 <kmc> yeah his Lisp book is... unorthodox
03:21:50 <kmc> MACROS FOR EVERYTHING
03:21:56 <kmc> YOU GET A MACRO! YOU GET A MACRO! EVERYONE GETS A MACRO!
03:22:07 <kmc> i think even diehard lispers tend to acknowledge that, like, functions are also a p. cool way to abstract
03:22:10 <Bike> and then they get like, offended when people say that, i may as well be spitting on muhammad
03:22:42 <Bike> yeah the first thing people do in lisp (including myself...) is write an assload of worthless macros >_>
03:23:08 <Bike> i think i wrote one to abstract calling web apis, a very function thing
03:23:51 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure my first lisp programs were stateless
03:23:54 <Bike> anyway point is fuck that guy
03:24:35 <Bike> Real Hackers call it pointless
03:25:54 <Bike> also the actual reason i asked is there was a guy talking about how lispers shouldn't use vim, on this tweet about pg being a sexist git, and it's like dude no c'mon
03:26:05 <kmc> yeah seriously
03:26:25 <kmc> i start bashing pg and people are like "yeah he's not a REAL HACKER either! he didn't write enough codez"
03:26:40 <quintopia> well, it does seem like emacs gets tailored to lispers more. with lispbox and whatnot
03:26:55 <Bike> that's not the point
03:27:21 <Bike> the point is if i start complaining about hitler's policies re the romani you don't complain about his anti-smoking campaign being ineffective
03:27:54 <Bike> hitler analogies are so tempting, every time.
03:28:34 <quintopia> but you know he could have been revolutionary. think how much better off the germans would have been if they'd started to quit smoking in the 30s!
03:29:01 <kmc> Bike: he also banned tubas and decreased the compensation given to passengers on delayed reichsbahn trains!
03:29:05 <kmc> #lessercrimesofthethirdreich
03:29:57 <Bike> i thought "there is more to life than this" was from shakespeare or something but it turns out to be the name of a self-help book by a spirit talker, so, nevermind
03:30:20 <Bike> wait, how do you ban tubas
03:30:22 <kmc> "Christ, what an asshole"
03:30:43 <kmc> Bike: go around arresting people who play the tuba? how do you ban anything
03:31:23 <quintopia> i have to say, hitler was somewhat less nice to his fellow man than he could have been, wouldn't you say?
03:31:37 <Bike> look i'm imagining this and i'm stuck on the idea of a 'tuba control board' a la the dea
03:31:51 <kmc> Hitler is a jerk, Mussolini is a weenie
03:32:38 <kmc> Bike: the German name would be 100x better
03:32:47 <quintopia> Bike: the GSP could have been sent to break up polka bands and smash the tuba
03:32:50 <Bike> that's very true
03:33:29 <Bike> i remember hearing something interesting slash not a joke about subversive jazz clubs in the reich, maybe they brought in tubas when they really wanted to flip off the powers that be
03:33:31 <kmc> also i can't find a citation for this
03:33:34 <kmc> maybe it was accordians instead
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03:34:58 <quintopia> accordions were the superpopularist
03:47:57 <Bike> Sgeo: http://arxiv.org/abs/1308.4853 looks particularly relevant... maybe
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04:06:23 <Sgeo> Bike: I have little idea what that's saying. Is it saying there are things similar to what Heisenberg covers, but their definitions weren't like that of Heisenberg, but this paper redefines stuff to make them match closer?
04:07:03 <Bike> anyway i'm pretty sure this isn't about the actual inequality
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05:14:23 <kmc> Bike: y no retweet for "decal of Calvin pissing on that Game of Life glider logo"
05:15:06 <Bike> i've seen too many of those with truck brands
05:20:04 <kmc> that's the joke, or something
05:21:21 <Bike> there's a trauma
05:24:25 <Jafet> Calvin and Muad'dib is gone
05:50:30 <kmc> current status: http://candyaddict.com/blog/candy_images/meiji_chocorooms.jpg
05:51:34 <kmc> "Bottom line: if you think candies that look like mushrooms are irresistibly cute, then Chocorooms are for you." douglass_ is like YEP YEP YEP YEP
05:55:06 <zzo38> Are any C compilers supporting functions declared as "extern static"? I think not.
05:55:23 <kmc> what do those mean
05:56:08 <Gregor> zzo38: Considering that static means "not exported", to support such a construct would be a direct violation of the C specification.
05:56:55 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, that is what I would think.
05:57:17 <Gregor> Some might support having both keywords in a declaration, but it certainly wouldn't actually have both behaviors (since it can't)
06:00:27 <zzo38> Maybe I should specify in "Black-C", that it is allow "extern static", inside of a #master ... #endmaster block. If it is given the filename which is currently being compiled, then it is exported, otherwise it is external and always links to the named file, and other than that it acts like it is actually "static", even though it isn't.
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06:03:35 <kmc> tell me more about Black-C and #master
06:05:35 <zzo38> For example if you write #master "plain.c" and have a bunch of things declared "extern static", they act like static for most purposes but are actually belonging to the file "plain.o" (and name-mangling is applied, only in such a circumstance). One purpose would be to allow implementing run-time type identifications.
06:05:57 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/black_c.txt
06:07:06 <kmc> long long long
06:07:35 <kmc> "Structures do not have to have any members. Their size is zero if so." this is incompatible with C++ fwiw
06:08:14 <kmc> what's a "designated initializer"?
06:08:42 <zzo38> It isn't meant to be compatible with C++. However, that feature is compatible with GNU C.
06:08:58 <zzo38> It is meant to be compatible with C, not C++.
06:10:22 <zzo38> This is describing "designated initializer": http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Designated-Inits.html
06:12:34 <kmc> int whitespace[256] = { [' '] = 1, ['\t'] = 1, ['\h'] = 1, ['\f'] = 1, ['\n'] = 1, ['\r'] = 1 };
06:16:00 <zzo38> Yes, like that, too.
06:22:26 <nooodl> hmm... i see people store boolean values in ints like that a lot in C
06:23:23 <nooodl> isn't that usually a waste of space? why not store boolean values in chars and have them take up only one byte, guaranteed?
06:23:26 <Bike> there isn't a distinct boolean type, so...
06:24:57 <monotone> That's a bitfield, so it's one bit per, not one byte.
06:25:25 <kmc> I think people don't like char for function parameters because in the dark ages there were no function prototypes, so the chars would get embiggened to ints anyway
06:25:38 <kmc> but that doesn't explain storing ints in an array like that
06:25:47 <monotone> Oh, derp, misread that, never mind.
06:25:48 <kmc> I think that would be considered bad style yeah
06:25:53 <kmc> though on some machines it might be significantly faster
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06:25:59 <kmc> so it depends on your constraints
06:30:24 <zzo38> I would think it is good since then you can access it in a more easily kind of way, and yes since it can be faster, too
06:30:32 <zzo38> So I don't consider it bad style
06:31:37 <kmc> it can be slower, too
06:32:31 <zzo38> Yes, depending what you are doing.
06:44:41 <Sgeo> http://isup.me/downforeveryoneorjustme.com
06:44:46 <Sgeo> That's just so wrong
06:45:35 <shachaf> Sgeo............................................................................................
06:46:30 <Sgeo> What, it's completely impossible for DNS to get screwed up so that downforeveryoneorjustme.com stops working but isup.me doesn't?
06:47:12 <kmc> `quote domain name system
06:47:13 <HackEgo> 982) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
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07:03:27 <Bike> https://www.eff.org/document/quantum-surveillance-familiar-actors-and-possible-false-flags-syrian-malware-campaigns who needs crypto
07:04:39 <kmc> there's a kid getting beheaded on slide 9 D:
07:05:41 <Bike> yeah there's warnings
07:06:01 <Bike> i probably shouldn't be in a position to compare and contrast that with the heart-eater video, but here i am
07:12:10 <kmc> trebuchets and heart eating
07:12:20 <kmc> old forms of warfare never fully die out do they
07:12:30 <kmc> see also iran & iraq bringing back trenches and poison gas in the 80s
07:12:46 <Bike> it was actually a liver, iirc, they just marketed it as a heart
07:12:53 <Bike> eating livers just doesn't shock the people any more
07:13:10 <kmc> jeez if you can't trust the guy eating human organs who can you trust anymore
07:13:10 <Bike> alt. jihadists aren't good at anatomy
07:13:25 <Bike> i, personally, once mistook a bird's testicles for its lungs
07:13:32 <kmc> eating carnivore livers is supposed to be pretty bad for you
07:13:41 <kmc> i don't know if humans eat enough meat for that to be an issue
07:13:45 <Bike> he just sort of nibbled it, really.
07:13:57 <Bike> i'm uh, probably shouldn't go into /too/ much detail here huh
07:13:59 <kmc> Bike: https://twitter.com/miuaf/status/416802172295053312
07:14:23 <douglass_> humans are omnivores. i'd expect human liver to be (pathogen risk aside) much much safer than polar bear liver.
07:15:14 <Bike> kmc: there are some advantages to living down the street from a butcher
07:15:29 <kmc> i think there are three or four specialty meat shops near me
07:16:05 <kmc> as well as places like Low Cost Carnicería
07:16:08 <kmc> or was it Lo Cost?
07:16:46 <kmc> oh it's Low Cost Carnicería not to be confused with Lo-Cost Meat Market
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07:24:00 <douglass_> Locust is no longer a popular meat.
07:24:34 <douglass_> Also locusts, technically, are not reliably available, as they are only the swarming phase of the insect's life cycle.
07:24:52 <douglass_> The non-swarming phase is an inoffensive grasshopper or crickety thing that looks totally different.
07:25:03 <Bike> oh! someone actually knows that! i love you.
07:25:18 <Bike> they're pretty easy to find in, like, madagascar though >_>
07:25:23 <douglass_> There are some locust species that may or may not be extinct, and we don't know because maybe they just haven't swarmed in the past hundred years.
07:25:48 <douglass_> (read about one in the Great Plains or maybe CO, forget the details)
07:25:48 <ion> I hacked Minecraft Overviewer to render from the center outwards instead of from the top left corner. An interrupted render that demonstrates it: http://heh.fi/tmp/minecraft-test/#/74/64/-184/-6/0/0
07:26:04 <Bike> yeah, it was somewhere in the western US
07:26:14 <shachaf> kmc: did you read The Locusts by Niven and Barnes
07:26:19 <shachaf> that was a p. strange short story
07:26:21 <Bike> kind of reminded me of the lilac-smelling worms around here that we thought were extinct for fifty years
07:27:51 <douglass_> WP says "Prior to its rediscovery in 2010, the worm was believed to give off a scent similar to that of the lily flower when handled[2] and that it was able to spit in self-defense;[3] however, the specimens captured did not exhibit these capabilities.[5]"
07:28:07 <Bike> lily, lilac, w/e >_>
07:31:51 <douglass_> I should try cricket sometime though.
07:32:23 <douglass_> Usually when I try some weird thing that I've been pondering and avoiding for years it turns out pretty good. Like corn smut.
07:33:24 <Bike> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/16288 this is what almost any talk about neural networks looks like
07:41:40 * kmc looks up programming languages on Urban Dictionary
07:43:34 <kmc> "Praising Java for fitting on many platforms is like praising anal sex for fitting both sexes." see,
07:43:41 <kmc> these both seem like reasonable points to me.
07:49:05 <Bike> better replace that definition with a fictional sex position
07:49:37 <kmc> one involving coffee
07:50:19 <kmc> i,i http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_enema
07:50:20 <Bike> i wonder if there's a good joke to be made about coffee, duality, and sex work
07:50:36 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ineffective_cancer_treatments
07:51:48 <Bike> hm, i think 'coffee' 'enema' may be even higher on my 'why are these juxtaposed' list than 'decerebrate cat' 'anal sphincter'
07:52:49 <Bike> "a popular medical system devised by Ryke Geerd Hamer (1935 – ), in which all disease is seen as deriving from emotional shock, and mainstream medicine is regarded as a conspiracy promulgated by Jews"
07:53:26 <Bike> it's cool how on their faces it's hard to negatively compare these to 'tiny invisible animals are in your gut'
07:55:00 <kmc> tiny invisible jews
07:55:57 <Bike> plot of my steampunk time travel novel
07:57:08 <Bike> "an alternative medicine regime promoted by Hulda Regehr Clark (1928–2009), who (before her death from cancer) claimed it could cure many human diseases, including cancer" this is just sad.
08:00:59 <zzo38> Then she was probably wrong, if it didn't work for her.
08:11:33 <fizzie> I wasn't supposed to say that.
08:12:17 <kmc> also hizzie
08:12:34 <fizzie> The IRC input line is just too convenient for ephemeral notes.
08:13:43 <fizzie> Also uh kellmc no that does not work
08:14:01 <Bike> in the middle? innovative.
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08:26:48 <kmc> goin' to sleep
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09:02:22 <oerjan> <Bike> i thought "there is more to life than this" was from shakespeare or something but it turns out to be the name of a self-help book by a spirit talker, so, nevermind <-- i see no contradiction between the two substatements. although admittedly shakespeare does not seem to turn up in several pages of the google hits. (björk does.)
09:03:00 <oerjan> @tell bike <Bike> i thought "there is more to life than this" was from shakespeare or something but it turns out to be the name of a self-help book by a spirit talker, so, nevermind <-- i see no contradiction between the two substatements. although admittedly shakespeare does not seem to turn up in several pages of the google hits. (björk does.)
09:04:33 <oerjan> @tell bike trying to add shakespeare just gives the "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." quote
09:07:20 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> Tubasteuerkarte <-- i have a hunch "Karte" is the wrong kind of board here.
09:10:57 <oerjan> @tell quintopia Anyway a little experimentation in google translate finds the _clearly_ proper term: Tubaüberwachungsausschuß
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09:13:05 <oerjan> @tell quintopia supposedly s/ß/ss/ nowadays, but we're talking the third Reich here.
09:13:57 <oerjan> @tell quintopia Sie ist seit der Reform von 1996 nicht mehr korrekt. ;_;
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10:04:19 <mroman> ß replaces ss when preceeded by a long vowel.
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11:42:51 <ais523> I had a great idea recently
11:43:14 <ais523> you know how git produces long, meaningless hashes to name commits, which is much more complex than just using revision numbers?
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11:43:31 <ais523> and how it typically expresses them as abbreviated hashes, that only contain the first seven nybbles?
11:44:07 <ais523> clearly, we need a rebase-like command that renumbers all the commits to have abbreviated hashes starting 0000001, 0000002, 0000003, etc. in order
11:44:23 <ais523> the range of 7 nybbles is approximately 0 to 250 million
11:44:32 <ais523> which is probably in the range of what a modern computer can bruteforce
11:44:38 <ion> Who’s the authority on revision numbers in a distributed setting?
11:44:57 <ais523> you just renumber it whenever you feel like it
11:45:12 <ais523> so everyone can be their own authority
11:45:43 <ais523> so long as you do your changes via changing metadata, git's duplicated-tree detector will remove most of the bad effects of the changes in hashes
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11:47:07 <ais523> anyway this is a terrible idea
11:47:17 <ais523> I just wanted to bring it up because this is a good channel to air terrible ideas in
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11:54:30 <oerjan> ideas great and terrible, check
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12:41:09 <fungot> olsner: or just eat veggies which takes more planning
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12:42:54 <ais523> that sentence almost looked sensible until I tried to read it
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12:46:32 <olsner> yes, I think it should be "take more planning", since veggies is plural
12:47:00 <olsner> grammar, fungot... grammar and s:es
12:47:00 <fungot> olsner: tu mama esta fnord en fnord fnord ollenkaan, ko mie fnord mennä fnord. fnord
12:47:56 <oklopol> or the which could refer to the eating of vegetables?
12:48:32 <oklopol> ...or just eat your vegetables, which, admittedly, takes more planning.
12:49:55 <ais523> actually eating vegetables takes a surprising amount of planning right now
12:50:11 <ais523> because they don't store very long and the supermarkets seem low on stock post-Christmas
12:50:26 <oklopol> i'm sure that's what fungot meant
12:50:26 <fungot> oklopol: have you ever been to europe? what kind? what's it supposed to run for food... will show code after the if statement
12:51:13 <oklopol> yes i actually just visited my home 0 moments ago. (and france last week.)
12:51:59 <ais523> oh dear, fungot brought back bad memories of being unable to find food I could eat in France
12:51:59 <fungot> ais523: eval ( !-inf)) will just put the traveling ip to sleep
12:52:22 <ais523> !c printf("%d\n", !-(1.0/0.0));
12:52:43 <ais523> oklopol: because I have some dietary restrictions and pretty much everything in the supermarket either violated them, or needed some sort of utensil to prepare
12:52:45 <oklopol> i guess you are a veggieist, given your three last messages except the last
12:52:47 <ais523> which weren't available in my hotel room
12:53:03 <ais523> I'm not actually vegetarian, but I have a similarly restrictive diet
12:53:43 <oklopol> because of luls, religion or physiology?
12:53:49 <ais523> when I was younger, I basically had to eat generic food paste until they figured out what I could eat or not
12:54:15 <ais523> (btw, the doctor said something along the lines of "you can tell if someone needs that stuff by whether they can tolerate eating it")
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12:55:50 <ais523> although perhaps sensibly, they started testing cereals first, having rice and oats to fall back on helps a lot (also wheat and potatoes are almost perfectly OK too)
12:56:49 <olsner> in sweden you can find pickled potatoes that are ready to eat
12:56:52 <ais523> actually most things turned out to be OK
12:57:01 <ais523> and even more are OK in small quantities
12:57:06 <ais523> so it doesn't take much concentration nowadays
12:57:37 <ais523> the most commonly occurring problem is with milk/cheese (milk is OK in small quantities, especially if cooked, but causes trouble if there are a lot; cheese is worse)
12:57:50 <ais523> actually I had to stop eating the croissants after a while because they were made with too much butter
12:59:56 <Taneb> My uncle as a gluten not-allergy-but-kind-of-like-an-allergy-we-have-no-idea-what-it-actually-is
13:02:20 <Taneb> That's kind of relevant
13:02:24 <olsner> the normal gluten "allergy" is just intolerance, iirc
13:02:35 <Taneb> olsner, his is actually a mystery
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13:02:52 <ais523> olsner: I have intolerances, rather than allergies
13:02:54 <olsner> I thought they were all mysterious, but there may be several different kinds anyway
13:03:18 <ais523> the difference being a) it's much more quantity-dependent than with allergies; b) it's less likely to be life-threatening if you screw up
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13:12:03 <oklopol> i only ate kebab in france
13:13:03 <ais523> there's an umlaut on that in French/Finnish?
13:13:17 <oklopol> in finnish it's called kebab
13:13:32 <oklopol> and i know there's an umlaut in germany where that word is used
13:13:42 <oklopol> there is no "döner" in finland
13:13:44 <Taneb> When someone says "kebab" to me I still think shish kebab
13:13:50 <oklopol> in france i think it was called kebab
13:13:51 <Taneb> Because we sometimes make them at home
13:14:02 <oklopol> but americans mean something else by that
13:14:56 <oklopol> i don't know what it's called in america but maybe doner then? uk i have no idea about
13:15:13 <oklopol> (i don't even know if they have that in the us)
13:15:44 <oklopol> and in finland i haven't seen shish kebab anywhere
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13:16:39 <ais523> oklopol: we have both doner and shish in the UK, but no accents
13:16:48 <ais523> I don't eat kebabs so I have no idea what the difference is, if any
13:17:01 <Taneb> I think most people think of doner first
13:17:48 <oklopol> afaik shish kebab is meat on a stick, and doner is meat between two loaves of bread (so in some sense in the hamburger family, although looks and tastes very different)
13:18:22 <Taneb> I think it has to be fried to be a kebab?
13:18:23 <olsner> I think doner refers to the spinning blob of meat that the kebab is cut from
13:18:44 <oklopol> Taneb: i have had discussions with americans about kebab and they never work very well
13:18:53 <olsner> (it comes from the turkish word for spinning, says wikipedia)
13:19:02 <oklopol> iirc kebab means something like cow?
13:20:53 <oklopol> In American English, kebab with no qualification refers to shish kebab (Turkish: şiş kebap) cooked on a skewer,[1] whereas in Europe it refers to doner kebab, sliced meat served in a pita.
13:22:31 <oklopol> k probably not, but i seem to recall something meant something funny or surprising in some language.
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13:22:50 <oklopol> According to Sevan Nişanyan, an etymologist of Turkish language, kebab is derived from the Arabic word "kabab" meaning "fry".
13:23:34 * oklopol finally decided to read the next sentence
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14:07:25 <Taneb> kmc, is there anything like scanf in Rust?
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14:13:36 <lifthrasiir> Taneb, I'm not kmc but I know there is no such thing, I needed to write my own scanner routine myself
14:14:35 <boily> good lifthrasiir-is-alive morning!
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15:47:08 <boily> Bike: good investment opportunity! /r/dogecoin is the subreddit of the day!
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16:10:23 <FreeFull> I think I'll make altgr+g into dead greek
16:10:38 <FreeFull> Since I can't find a greek shift or greek lock
16:11:52 <boily> Taneb: I think you need something more forceful than a poke in order to grab his attention.
16:11:56 * boily lends his mapole to Taneb
16:12:13 <Taneb> kmc, poke with a maypole
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16:15:36 * boily lends Taneb a depleted-oak warhead mapole
16:16:08 <Taneb> kmc, poke with a depleted-oak warhead maypole
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16:19:09 <FireFly> FreeFull: what are you messing with+
16:19:29 <kmc> "There's also the issue that it's hard to carry a dead deer on a bicycle." -- douglass_
16:20:23 <Taneb> kmc, I want to try and read two ints separated with a space from stdin. How do I go about that in Rust?
16:20:31 <boily> lambdabot answers to “v”?
16:20:56 <kmc> i... don't do much IO
16:21:07 <kmc> ask irc.mozilla.org #rust
16:21:40 <kmc> I literally understand how to make HTTP requests and draw with OpenGL but not how to read two ints
16:24:28 <Taneb> Aaah I am not used to having a bouncer
16:24:40 <Taneb> I have no idea how to connect to a new server through my bouncer
16:37:37 <FreeFull> FireFly: I want to be able to write greek characters
16:40:04 <FireFly> FreeFull: with xkb you can abuse having a second Group and use ISO_Group_Latch to shift between them
16:40:18 <FireFly> that's what I do: https://bitbucket.org/firefly/dotfiles/src/tip/xkb/firefly.symbols?at=default
16:42:29 <FreeFull> That could work too, but is more work than making altgr+g be dead_greek
16:42:41 <FreeFull> And I probably won't be needing to write more than one greek symbol at once
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16:49:02 <boily> FireFly: woah. that is some intense keyboarding you got there! how do you compile and use it?
16:51:35 <FireFly> I just have /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/firefly symlink'd to it and configure my layout as 'firefly'
16:53:29 <FireFly> i.e. in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-evdev.conf I have 'Option "XkbLayout" "firefly"'
16:56:01 <boily> I shamelessly set my keyboard layout in .xinitrc >_>'...
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16:58:55 <boily> (oh. it isn't C. it's a special format. no compilation necessary.)
17:00:03 <FireFly> It's a poorly-documented special format
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17:00:16 <FireFly> http://www.charvolant.org/~doug/xkb/html/xkb.html is basically what I've found on it
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17:02:04 <boily> and I suppose that the first xkb_symbols block declared in the file is the one you get by entering “setxkbmap <filename>”, and that you get the other blocks with “setxkbmap <filename> -variant <blockname>”.
17:02:34 <boily> (or, maybe “default partial” means something. you never know.)
17:14:50 <FireFly> partial means that it's not defining a full layout, but only part of one (like, only the numpad area or only the letter keys or something)
17:15:03 <FireFly> I can't remember if default was honoured or if it always took the first oe
17:46:43 <fizzie> "make altgr+g into dead greek" very philosophical.
17:46:54 <fizzie> (The joke is there are lots of dead Greek philosophers.)
17:49:33 <boily> `learn αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo!
17:49:53 <boily> now, let's see if I can latexify it...
17:50:00 <fizzie> Taneb: Which kind of a bounc-o-matic you chose?
17:54:56 <fizzie> Also I just came from the 60-year birthday party of my wife's father, and there was a (quasi-)Famous Band there, it was kind of surprising. People were surprised. (Not, like, famous famous, just sort of middlingly famous, I guess. The "50k twitter followers" kind of famous.)
17:56:23 <fizzie> (I guess that's how it's measured these days.)
17:59:48 <mroman> Why would someone design an application, that requires network connectivy to close it
18:00:07 <mroman> when you have to restart it, when it lost connectivity
18:10:03 <quintopia> boily: do you have a workplace overlooking the st. lawrence seaway
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18:12:59 <quintopia> @tell oerjan you don't have to use this to send me messages. i'm always in here and pings are recorded when i'm away. not that telling you this will stop you from annoying me with lambdabot messages.
18:14:12 <boily> quintopia: no. yes.
18:14:13 <fizzie> @tell quintopia Now you're just asking for it.
18:16:44 <boily> quintopia: here is a dadjoke while I try to remember a better one: He broke this one out when teaching me about tools. // "Okay, so this is the screwdriver, this is the wrenche, and this, well, you know the drill."
18:21:04 <boily> quintopia: here is a Canadian joke: Tim Horton, famous hockey player for the Toronto Maple Leafs, and founder of the wildly famous donut and coffee store; Tim Hortons. One day he was driving through the streets of St. Catharines Ontario extremly drunk. He went under the lake St. Overpass at around 150Kmh in his car and hit a support column. He and his car were obliterated. To this day, you can still find
18:21:06 <boily> Tim-Bits everywhere.
18:27:09 <boily> LinearInterpol: some day, I'll be a dad. when my kids will misbehave, I'll scold them with Bad Monad Tutorials.
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18:27:50 <FireFly> You should scold them by quoting fungot instead
18:27:51 <fungot> FireFly: also every time the named let so you can use !whatever, where the number of characters
18:28:13 <FireFly> fungot: that's not terribly threatening though
18:28:14 <fungot> FireFly: and how can the histogram of integer sizes have so many hits per page, if it is used for quite a while back,
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18:31:25 <boily> I can see myself saying “HOW CAN THE HISTOGRAM OF INTEGER SIZES HAVE SO MANY HITS PER PAGE!” in a stern voice. that'll surely teach them.
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18:34:40 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
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18:34:49 <fizzie> fungot: Can that sword alone stop boily's kids from misbehaving?
18:34:49 <fungot> fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!... you're gaspar, the guru of time! get moving! behold! the rainbow shell!
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18:35:30 <boily> fungot: please answer your Creator. it's the least of the courtesies.
18:35:30 <fungot> boily: these unique items make us invincible!
18:35:46 <fizzie> fungot: That's just a direct quote.
18:35:46 <fungot> fizzie: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! sorry, fellas! i'm empty! this must be the invention. hope it still leaves you hungry! here you are the only one thing we need to defeat a monster that roams the inner earth, absorbing the land's power and growing ever stronger the resemblance...uncanny! you guys leaving!
18:37:07 <fizzie> "hope it still leaves you hungry!" what a nice sentiment.
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18:45:21 <shachaf> fungot: can fizzie live on bread alone?
18:45:22 <fungot> shachaf: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! go!! what about me. they just might be the one to bring back lost loved ones... it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
18:45:34 <shachaf> wow boring say something new
18:45:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:45:57 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
18:46:25 <fizzie> There's not that much data in the ct style.
18:46:29 <shachaf> fungot: let's play the speech recognition game
18:46:30 <fungot> shachaf: when i appeared before a committee of twenty-one members should be given to the lecture platform and tell all about it.
18:47:07 <fizzie> fungot: I AM TALKING VERY SLOWLY AND CLEARLY CAN YOU UNDERSTAND ME
18:47:08 <fungot> fizzie: it suggests melancholy reflections, in consequence of any law or regulation therein be discharged from the exercise of that profession is, that he remained through his whole career will not be adequately remunerated if he is to answer on the part of the subject? he is, wrote only one letter to the clergy?"
18:47:26 <shachaf> no fizzie you have to recognize fungot's speeches
18:47:26 <fungot> shachaf: ii. to constituents. ( arbroath, october 21, 1907)
18:48:09 <fizzie> Well, I think that last one was that one from Arbroath, October 21, 1907.
18:48:27 <fizzie> I don't remember what went into "speeches".
18:50:18 <boily> don't you have the raw files laying around?
18:51:24 <boily> or lieing. I can't remember for the fungot of me what is the correct verb.
18:51:25 <fungot> boily: from a letter to wm. h. rogers by the business men of norfolk, fnord. power, etc.
18:51:45 <boily> fnord. power. ayn rand. fungot. rogers.
18:51:46 <fungot> boily: " still as you rise, the state of missouri. i have not received more than i deserve, is this a sort of fnord, brought into the house of commons
18:51:57 <FireFly> The around-laying is a lie
18:52:26 <FireFly> fungot: fnord, in the house of commons?!
18:52:26 <fungot> FireFly: but in the place of your retiring president. i shall be surprised to hear the judge, as i have told you what he knows. we have regulated that which we should be affected with anything, he must go a hundred and fifty years ago all roads in new england who still continued to face the facts.
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19:29:29 <lambdabot> quintopia said 1h 16m 30s ago: you don't have to use this to send me messages. i'm always in here and pings are recorded when i'm away. not that telling you this will stop you from annoying me with lambdabot messages.
19:29:55 <oerjan> quintopia: depends on if i can remember it.
19:33:15 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't trust people in general to check whether they've had pings.
19:34:27 <oerjan> quintopia: also i have a bit of ocp?d about information getting lost.
19:40:18 <metasepia> ocd definition: obsessive-compulsive disorder.
19:42:32 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomo
19:46:43 <oerjan> <Taneb> kmc, poke with a depleted-oak warhead maypole <-- * oerjan smells an evil autocorrect
19:50:56 * boily imagines a fantasy battlescape, where the Chimæric Words struggle against the Evil Autocorrectians
19:51:22 <Bike> oerjan: horatio is what i was thinking of anyway
20:00:27 <HackEgo> [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+002B PLUS SIGN]
20:00:43 <kmc> http://lolmythesis.com/
20:00:47 <oerjan> somehow they looked different in my browser.
20:01:33 <Bike> "Built software development tools for an alternate reality that forked off in 1980." hey, it's sgeo
20:02:11 <Bike> kind of wish they'd link the actual paper but i guess that fucks with anonymity and also noone reads theses
20:02:20 <boily> do you guys think we can spot fizzie's thesis in there?
20:02:37 <Bike> "Rats like cocaine", i bet
20:03:06 <boily> fizzie: what are you working on, again?
20:03:25 <kmc> Bike: also all PL research
20:04:01 <kmc> "Anselm’s ontological proof for God’s existence completely fails because he literally didn’t understand basic grammar."
20:05:10 <zzo38> Grammar is the problem?
20:05:12 <boily> “Lasers make really pretty shit when you pass them through funky glass. Also, chemistry makes pretty colors.” ← sounds a lot like my bro's internship.
20:06:34 <Bike> "You can’t understand what hillly cities look like in two dimensions.
20:07:22 <kmc> Taneb: oh I think I forgot to respond to your poke, what was it?
20:07:50 <boily> oooooh! one from Université du Québec à Montréal! “Money is a much more complicated thing than you think it is and the modern financial system is in the process of screwing it real good.”
20:07:54 <Bike> "Brain cells are really cool. Zebrafish. People have schizophrenia. Count ALL THE THINGS. Cell death. Fish death. STERILE! Significance. Yeah." see now we're talking
20:08:34 <Bike> "Also, 10 nanometers sounds really big now"
20:11:06 <boily> I like the one about tricky meditation. I think I can pull that one off in our next RPG campaign. :D
20:12:54 <zzo38> Tricky meditation?
20:13:17 <boily> zzo38: “If you want to trick someone into meditating, all you have to do is turn the lights completely off, suspend their body, and get them to DJ ambient sounds using their breath.”
20:14:02 <zzo38> boily: Would they need to know DJ?
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20:14:29 <Bike> "we should all spend ages investigating a phenomenon in a non ecologically valid manner and then conclude that we found out nothing about it" there's a half-decent chance i know who submitted this one...
20:15:12 <boily> zzo38: minor detail. I'll wing it over either a fortitude or a nature check. yeah. probably going to go with the nature check.
20:15:15 <fizzie> boily: Reech specognition.
20:16:19 <boily> fizzie: that one sounds like a mahjong declaration...
20:16:59 <boily> zzo38: as long as I entertain the GM, and can write something nonsensical in the Journals, it'll slide like a hot knife in a pound of yak butter.
20:17:08 <fizzie> boily: And I lost a couple of them datasets that went into fungot accidentally. Some I still have.
20:17:08 <fungot> fizzie: orestes, the greek highwayman. the crimes were not all the safeguards of liberty known in civilized and humane jurisprudence to be introduced, so that before i got started. it takes a genius in compression to compact as many facts as that.
20:18:13 <boily> fungot: very misfortune. such disgrace.
20:18:13 <fungot> boily: caesar lifted his head at the salutation. his air of deep abstraction fnord and he found one which united all that was stately and venerable in the antique manners, without fnord is of immemorial antiquity among us. it does not break down or derange the scheme of bringing our court to a resemblance to the neighbouring monarchies, it was not in the inns of court and in the unfettered exercise of their own mother tongue, t
20:18:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp youtube
20:18:36 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
20:19:22 <oerjan> <boily> or lieing. I can't remember for the fungot of me what is the correct verb. <-- i suspect "lying" hth
20:19:22 <fungot> oerjan: probably nothing like what you may have been due to these flaws i will not implement fnord do not fnord on this
20:19:50 <zzo38> boily: Write something nonsensical in the Journals?
20:19:53 <fizzie> "i will not implement fnord do not fnord on this" is a good motto to live by.
20:20:52 <boily> zzo38: I'm the Secretary of Our Campaigns, writing down everything Stupid we do, in a... uhm... deconstructed manner.
20:20:56 <oerjan> fnord not lest you be fnorded
20:22:25 <zzo38> boily: O, OK. Well, in the D&D game I am in, I type everything, even if it isn't stupid.
20:23:08 <zzo38> (I also record the character sheets)
20:23:51 <zzo38> But I try to be sufficiently accurate so if I made some mistake anyone can notice, I should fix it.
20:24:28 <shachaf> What if only one person can notice it?
20:25:05 <zzo38> shachaf: It doesn't matter as long as they can tell me about it.
20:25:16 <boily> zzo38: I think I sent you some character sheets some time ago, didn't I?
20:25:16 <boily> then it's not a mistake.
20:25:35 <boily> (also, 2 minute lag. interesting effect in the logs...)
20:26:15 <zzo38> boily: I think you may have done, but I didn't keep the copy.
20:27:19 <zzo38> Do you keep on computer and print it out, or synchronize the copy in the computer with the paper like I did instead?
20:27:52 <boily> eeeeeeh... my GM and/or another player does that.
20:29:05 <zzo38> However, I need to fix the macro file so that it will split the spell levels into multiple rows if necessary, which it is.
20:38:56 <zzo38> Now I realized I also failed to mention how many 5th-level slots I have.
20:54:36 <Sgeo> "Too much weather to explain in just nine words--maybe in twelve--nope, not even in seventeen."
20:54:57 <Sgeo> I think the only segment of The Onion that I really dislike are the audio reports
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20:59:50 <oerjan> someone badly needs our help http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20817113/how-to-read-character-in-whitespace-language
21:01:49 <boily> haskell compiler 5.02???
21:01:58 <oerjan> one might guess that stackoverflow doesn't handle tabs well.
21:02:33 <zzo38> I improved the page layout for the character sheets now.
21:03:03 <mauke> is there a better haskell implementation now?
21:03:19 <mauke> when I looked at the whitespace interpreter, it used lists for *everything*
21:03:23 <oerjan> boily: well it's the one the implementation is mentioned to work with...
21:03:37 <boily> oerjan: yes, but... GHC 7.6?
21:03:47 <mauke> dynamic memory? list.
21:04:09 <mauke> and it used integer indices for everything, so just stepping through the opcodes was O(n²)
21:04:19 <oerjan> boily: with the way ghc has changed the current ghc might very well not compile whitespace. not that i've tested.
21:04:58 <boily> oerjan: oh. as in, directly compiling whitespace with no haskell intermediary?
21:05:29 <oerjan> mauke: i do not suspect efficiency was a major consideration.
21:05:43 <mauke> yes, but the code really was stupidly slow
21:06:05 <mauke> it made solving spoj.pl exercises in whitespace close to impossible
21:07:31 <oerjan> mauke: ok lists and indexing is of course stupid.
21:09:02 <mauke> so anyway, I wrote an assembler/disassembler and a (still stupid but hella) faster interpreter
21:10:42 <oerjan> so we can add it to esolang.
21:11:27 <boily> mauke: did someone `relcome you yet?
21:11:41 <mauke> boily: probably. was that the one with colors?
21:12:42 <oerjan> hm wikipedia has a nice github link
21:12:56 <boily> mauke: if you identify `relcomming with colours, then yes.
21:13:11 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/whitespace/ but that's not a permanent link
21:14:42 <oerjan> mauke: is yours in the github collection? i added that instead.
21:15:13 <mauke> what github collection?
21:15:20 <kmc> i'm getting too good at this social media thing
21:15:23 <oerjan> https://github.com/hostilefork/whitespacers/
21:15:25 <kmc> can't trust my opinions if they're too popular
21:16:31 <mauke> oerjan: no, it's not in there
21:16:32 <oerjan> <boily> oerjan: oh. as in, directly compiling whitespace with no haskell intermediary? <-- no, as in compiling the whitespace interpreter
21:18:00 <boily> beuh. I am disappoint.
21:18:28 <boily> kmc: how would you rate your own trustiness on the Fungot-Ørjan scale?
21:18:32 <oerjan> it's from 2003 and seems to be plain haskell 98.
21:18:58 <oerjan> wait, i'm on the opposite side of fungot?
21:18:58 <fungot> oerjan: though i admit it's not exactly quoted, but very important, i've just been trying to find
21:19:18 <mauke> fungot: have you heard of a man called markov?
21:19:19 <fungot> mauke: telnet irc.freenode.net 6667 -c unlambda blah blah blah
21:20:11 <boily> mauke: fungot is kinda the mascot of the channel.
21:20:11 <fungot> boily: i suggest c and/ or
21:20:22 <boily> mauke: also c, according to it.
21:21:23 <oerjan> fungot: i am not convinced that telnet command works.
21:21:23 <fungot> oerjan: context fnord input); fnord fnord dove fog.
21:21:48 <mauke> fungot: print STDOUT q / Just another Perl hacker, / unless $spring
21:22:37 <kmc> fungot: do you see the fnords?
21:22:37 <fungot> kmc: i'm not voicing a concern, i wouldn't try to psychoanalyze you all the answers!
21:24:04 <boily> mauke: as you can see, the bot is strangely sentient.
21:25:34 <kmc> fungot: thanks, I hate it when people do that
21:25:34 <fungot> kmc: fnord not mainstream programs? :) i use the precise gc do better? i want to
21:27:40 <oerjan> that store function is something to behold.
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21:48:16 <Vorpal> Hm, fizzie you there? You have some ffmpeg-fu right?
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21:49:25 <fizzie> I've done some things with it, but maybe "-fu" is overstating things.
21:49:47 <Vorpal> I basically have a single large music file (mp3) and a list of timecodes and want to split the file at those time codes.
21:50:03 <Vorpal> Also I have Debian so not really real ffmepg
21:50:12 <Vorpal> but avcode or whatever it is called
21:50:32 <fizzie> "avconv", and I'm not entirely sure you can convince avconv to do it losslessly.
21:50:42 <Vorpal> Could you do it with ffmpeg?
21:50:53 <Vorpal> I could build the real deal if that is required
21:51:20 <fizzie> They don't really differ all that much. And it's possible it's smart enough to do it, I'm just not quite sure.
21:53:41 <fizzie> It would be something like avconv -ss 123 -t 42 -i input.mp3 -codec copy output.mp3 to take a snippet of 42 seconds starting at 123 seconds in.
21:53:51 <Vorpal> Oh yeah I forgot, I built ffmpeg into ~/local/ffmpeg some time ago
21:53:56 <Vorpal> So I do have the real deal
21:54:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, Ah, so time to write a program to compute a time code like 1:20:23:41 Start of this section\n1:21:... and turn it into that
21:55:06 <fizzie> Both arguments can take 1:2:3.4 hour:minute:second.fraction formats.
21:55:20 <fizzie> (But you would still need to compute the duration between two timestamps.)
21:55:28 <Vorpal> So still needs a script
21:55:58 <Vorpal> Also I had terrible experience with -codec copy in the past not doing what I want
21:56:21 <fizzie> sox can extract something given absolute start and end positions, if I recall correctly, but I'm reasonably sure sox especially won't do it without re-encoding.
21:57:17 <Vorpal> By the way, after I fixed my glx kernel module (it wasn't compiled for the current kernel!), flash video in full screen no longer works
21:57:47 <Vorpal> So whatever fall back driver X uses when fglrx isn't loaded, works with flash
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21:58:14 <fizzie> Hrm. I tested the line above on a random mp3, and it seems to have done the start seek properly but not the duration limit.
21:58:50 <fizzie> Ah, command line argument order strikes again.
21:59:06 <fizzie> You need avconv -ss 123 -i input.mp3 -t 42 -codec copy out.mp3 instead.
21:59:08 <Vorpal> I hate utilities like that
21:59:19 <fizzie> Because the duration limit is an "output" kind of an argument.
21:59:22 <Vorpal> That makes little sense
21:59:34 <fizzie> And whatever you specify before an -i option is specific for that input, or some-such.
22:00:05 <fizzie> Even better: the -ss can go both before or after the -i and will do a subtly different thing. :p
22:00:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm would this work on an mp4 from youtube as well, I need that too, not sure what audio codec thoses uses (nor any idea how to find out)
22:00:43 -!- LinearInterpol has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:01:20 <fizzie> I think the formats that go in an MP4 container are all AAC on the audio.
22:04:07 -!- Chillectual has changed nick to LinearInterpol.
22:04:48 <Vorpal> $ ~/local/ffmpeg/bin/ffmpeg
22:04:49 <Vorpal> WARNING: gnome-keyring:: couldn't connect to: /home/arvid/.cache/keyring-z7nSMy/pkcs11: No such file or directory
22:04:59 <Vorpal> Is it trying to do gnome keyring!?
22:06:58 <mauke> `run echo $'LET "1:20:23.41 Start of this section\\n1:21:34.56 etc" ~ "{d!+}:{d!+}:{d!+.!d!+}.+{d!+}:{d!+}:{d!+.!d!+}"\n\\0+(60*(\\1+60*\\2))-\\3-(60*(\\4+60*\\5))_"' | ploki
22:07:43 <fizzie> I don't know how good time-domain accuracy you'll get out of it with -codec copy, since (AIUI) MP3 hasn't really been designed for extracting individual frames; there's some inter-frame dependencies. (If I ever knew the details, I've forgotten them.)
22:08:02 <mauke> ploki is love, ploki is life
22:08:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about aac?
22:08:20 <Vorpal> mauke, Something more useful?
22:08:28 <fizzie> (I got a file 10.3 seconds long with -t 10.)
22:08:36 <mauke> Vorpal: it's a programming language
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22:08:56 <Vorpal> It looks of the unreadable sort from that
22:09:00 <mauke> what are my options?
22:09:41 <Vorpal> functional/imperative, oop/not-oop and so on
22:09:43 <elliott> Vorpal: ffmpeg and avconv are unlikely to have major functionality differences afaik
22:09:54 <elliott> or rather they probably both have some things the other doesn't have at any given time?
22:10:01 <Vorpal> elliott, ah okay, then what was the bloody point of the fork?
22:10:15 <elliott> open source development politics
22:10:26 <elliott> I think ffmpeg pulls in like half the libav commits unchanged nowadays or something
22:10:39 <elliott> I think libav has the more momentum if only because Debian etc. use it
22:10:48 <elliott> I don't think it's so much the other way around, but I don't know that much
22:10:51 <elliott> I just read a blog post about it
22:11:01 <Vorpal> All this over indentation and braces? ;)
22:11:27 <Vorpal> Anyway I don't really care what the conflict is about
22:12:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Got 10.9 seconds with "-t 10" for extracting some AAC audio from a youtube-dl .mp4 file.
22:13:15 <Vorpal> So okay, I can just forget non-lossy then
22:14:33 <fizzie> If you want exact time resolution. At the very least, it's going to have to be rounded at the frame boundaries of the audio codec.
22:14:47 <fizzie> (Kind of like you need to speak in 8x8 blocks for lossless JPEG operations.)
22:17:26 <HackEgo> [U+0113 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH MACRON]
22:18:02 <HackEgo> [U+03C9 GREEK SMALL LETTER OMEGA] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS]
22:18:39 <fizzie> LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH MACARONI AND CHEESE
22:20:03 <fizzie> (Going to sleep, I think; been a long day.)
22:22:52 * oerjan imagines fizzie dreaming about chasing edible symbols
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22:39:56 <Vorpal> I really dislike the iterators of python
22:40:48 <quintopia> well it is obj oriented, so you can make your own! :P
22:41:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: How do they work, and how is it limited?
22:41:20 <Vorpal> There is no support for iterators that support going backwards and forwards. In C++ terms they would basically be input iterators I believe
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22:41:58 <Vorpal> For example, if I want to look at the next item in the iterator without removing it from the iterator (i.e. a peek function), can't do it
22:42:25 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes, but it won't integrate into the "for x in foo" syntax. I would have to do my own while loop over it
22:43:03 <Vorpal> In which case, why don't I just do a in_list = list(input_iter); for i in range(len(in_list)): or some such
22:43:27 <Vorpal> nucular, pretty sure that i wouldn't be able to access a peek function even if I added one in that case?
22:45:16 <nucular> It depends on how you implement your iterator
22:46:14 <Vorpal> Hm I guess I could create some wrapped object that forwarded most of the calls to the underlying object and then do "for e in my_collection: ... e.next()"
22:46:20 <Vorpal> Sounds annoying though
22:47:52 <nucular> I heard you can even subclass generator and set __iter__ to an instance of that subclass
22:48:22 <Vorpal> Oh that is a cool idea, but I think doing an range iterator is easier since this is a pretty short one-off script
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23:09:01 <Vorpal> What is a good python IDE? I just use IDLE mostly, but it is kind of bad at figuring out completion suggestions. Understandable giben the dynamic typing
23:10:00 <nucular> I really like the wxPython Py suite but I only use Sublime Text 2
23:11:25 <nucular> Vorpal: You can look at Editra, it's slightly based on the Py suite and also written in Python + wx
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23:13:42 <nucular> I used it for a long time before I found out about ST2
23:14:37 <nucular> Maybe because you should :P
23:16:05 <Vorpal> I heard sublime is good though
23:16:17 <Vorpal> A few people at work uses it
23:16:20 <nucular> It only randomly shows a message box at every tenth saving action if unregistered
23:16:25 <Vorpal> I mostly use emacs instead
23:16:49 <Vorpal> nucular, ouch, I tend to save quite often
23:17:29 <nucular> actually more like at every 20th but meh
23:19:38 <nucular> I almost never use an IDE, I just have the docs on another halve of the screen
23:20:01 <Vorpal> nucular, I like intelisense style completion, doesn't work very well for python though
23:20:59 <kmc> i don't use an IDE (which I take to include sufficiently fancy vim/emacs configs) but mostly out of laziness and inertia, not because I don't think they're valuable
23:24:25 <nucular> what does IntelliSense different again?
23:24:37 <kmc> the Agda emacs mode is awesome and if I had such a mode easily available for Haskell and Rust, I would love it
23:24:43 <kmc> enough to switch back to emacs, maybe
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23:39:10 <zzo38> Now I think that with the features in Black-C, it seems like it would be possible to use them to implement many features resembling those used in C++, such as templates, run-time type information, inheritance, Koenig lookup, etc. Do you think this is correct or did I miss something important that results in such implementations not working?
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23:41:40 <nucular> am I the only one only coming up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBL_Posse when searching Black-C?
23:41:52 <Bike> it's zzo38's c proposal thing.
23:42:02 <kmc> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/black_c.txt
23:43:01 <zzo38> As well as some C99 stuff such as complex numbers could also be implemented using these features.
23:43:53 <zzo38> O, and namespaces, too.
23:45:10 <nucular> Actually I just came here to talk with ais523 about building a Snowflake interpreter
23:45:12 <zzo38> I have recently added the specification of "extern static" now; it is the only thing I added today, I think. Name mangling applies to things declared as "extern static", and in fact only to such things (other things are treated as normal C names).
23:49:03 <Vorpal> zzo38, why would you want to make C++!?
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23:49:28 <Vorpal> Implementing ADL and templates seem like terrible ideas given how much of a pain they cause in the C++ world
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23:50:02 <Vorpal> nucular, he seems to be missing atm
23:51:18 <zzo38> Vorpal: It isn't C++; I am simply saying that such things may be some of the things that can be implemented using the features I have described. If you don't like them, don't program them in!
23:51:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, my python script works fantastically!
23:52:02 <nucular> Good thing that I'm a D fan btw :P
23:52:25 <Vorpal> nucular, you and Deewiant?
23:52:34 <Vorpal> And I guess the D author anyway
23:52:46 <Vorpal> To be blunt, what I'm saying is that D hasn't really seemed to take off much
23:53:09 <kmc> zzo38: does your metaprogramming system give deep access to inspect & destructure types, the way C++ templates do (and pretty much nothing else does)?
23:54:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, ... hm, I don't know what avconv did though, the "duration" column in vlc is all messed up for these files...
23:54:13 <zzo38> kmc: I am not very well knowing how C++ does it.
23:54:24 <Vorpal> Maybe some sort of VBR and no included length info?
23:54:47 <zzo38> Vorpal: What is "ADL" anyways?
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23:56:19 <Vorpal> zzo38, Other name for Koenig lookup (I had to look up what "Koenig lookup" was, I only knew the name ADL - Argument Dependent Lookup)
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23:56:50 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK, I didn't know what the abbreviation stood for.
23:57:05 <nucular> sorry, my connection decided to suck for today
23:57:44 <zzo38> kmc: Can you give some example of its working?
00:00:07 <kmc> not at the moment
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00:07:53 <Vorpal> kmc, Hm? "inspect & destructure types"?
00:08:08 <Vorpal> destructure is not even a real word!
00:08:51 <Vorpal> Says the spell checker
00:09:09 <kmc> the definition of Foo<T> can ask, say, whether T is a pointer, and if so, do things with the pointed-to type
00:09:13 <kmc> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/type_traits/
00:11:14 <Bike> i've poked at compile-time type introspectiony stuff, but it's hard to conceptualize. what is a pointer tye, really
00:11:22 <zzo38> kmc: In mine, you could probably do things with pointed-to-type, using the typeof operator, for example (typeof(*(X)0)) or something like that. (You can also define your own pointer types, which I don't know if C++ can do)
00:11:34 <kmc> how do "your own pointer types" work?
00:11:52 <kmc> in C++ you define your own pointer types by making a struct/class which overloads operator* and such
00:12:06 <kmc> these so-called "smart pointers" are very important to writing C++ in a high level, memory-safe style
00:12:20 <zzo38> Well, it works something like that.
00:12:29 <zzo38> So, yes it is a bit similar to the C++ way.
00:13:10 <zzo38> But, the functions to deal with them are called "deref" and "assign" (including the quotation marks), rather than operator*
00:15:02 <zzo38> Do you understand this now?
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00:17:19 <Vorpal> zzo38, what about the difference between operator* and operator-> ?
00:17:50 <Vorpal> In C++ the former returns a reference and the latter a pointer I believe
00:18:02 <Vorpal> In theory you could return different values for them
00:18:07 <Vorpal> Can't see that being useful though
00:18:09 <zzo38> Vorpal: In mine there isn't a difference.
00:18:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, well I doubt you could fully emulate C++ in it then
00:18:40 <zzo38> If the return type of "deref" is a struct/union type, then you can use the -> operator with it.
00:18:46 <Vorpal> All the so called "useful" features perhaps
00:19:02 <Vorpal> What about pointers to member functions?
00:19:14 <Vorpal> Has a ->* syntax or something like that
00:19:20 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't intend to "fully emulate" C++; I only am saying that some useful features of C++ are possible to imitate, but not exactly the C++ way.
00:19:40 <zzo38> How to "pointers to member functions" work?
00:19:50 <kmc> it's a little sad that Rust doesn't have anything with those particular capabilities of C++ templates, even though C++ templates themselves are a mess
00:20:35 <Vorpal> zzo38, It is like a function pointer (points to a function of the given prototype that is also a member of this class) but you provide the actual this-pointer object when calling the function pointer
00:20:36 <Bike> imo pass first-class environments to macro-functions
00:20:37 <zzo38> kmc: Can you do some things, with macros, though?
00:20:45 <Vorpal> zzo38, I used it *once*
00:21:03 <Vorpal> I never used pointer to member variables, which also exists in a similar manner
00:21:21 <zzo38> Vorpal: Black-C doesn't have a "this" pointer
00:21:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, so no member functions?
00:21:56 <zzo38> If your compiler supports trampolines then you may be able to implement such member function pointers
00:22:01 <kmc> zzo38: yes, there are macros, and there is parametric polymorphism with type classes, but there's nothing which inspects types in this way
00:22:16 <zzo38> Vorpal: Structures and unions can have functions as long as they are static (or extern static).
00:22:38 <Vorpal> Also stay away from MI.
00:22:45 <Vorpal> Also virtual inheritance is a mess
00:22:56 <Vorpal> I never figured out how it works completely
00:23:19 <Vorpal> Btw, python's scoping is terrible
00:23:31 <Vorpal> As far as I can tell it is late binding dynamic scoping?
00:23:32 <zzo38> My specification has no virtual functions or multiple inheritance or those things either, but you can try to fake it.
00:24:09 <Vorpal> Hm no it isn't dynamic scoping
00:24:14 <Vorpal> Nor is it true static scoping
00:24:48 <Vorpal> nucular, well yes... def foo(): return x and then declare x *later* in the module scope (as long as you don
00:24:56 <Vorpal> don't* call it before declaring x) works
00:25:11 <Vorpal> I'm personally not a fan of any sort of late binding
00:25:30 <Vorpal> python is a nice scripting language apart from that though
00:25:42 <Vorpal> would much prefer static typing and early binding
00:26:06 <nucular> also, i think module systems get much weirder in my projects
00:28:16 <Bike> "get much weirder" "than what"
00:28:20 <kmc> module systems are a pretty interesting area of PL that I never really learned much about
00:28:43 <kmc> Haskell and Rust are both pretty conservative re: modules, although Rust's module system is definitely more complicated than Haskell's
00:28:53 <kmc> programming languages (as a field of study)
00:29:06 <nucular> For example I have a main script that imports a module that imports the main script
00:29:33 <Vorpal> kmc, I think the simple system of erlang works well. It is simple apart from the "reload on the fly and keep two versions in memory at once" bit
00:29:52 <Vorpal> nucular, that sounds like bad design
00:30:09 <nucular> The module uses a class that was defined in the main script, and the main script uses the instances created in the module
00:30:24 <Bike> "Due to the large number of spambot signups from China, we no longer allow .ch email addresses"
00:30:44 <Vorpal> I have had python scripts that loops through an array and import modules from that though (for a build system generator thingy, each imported module was the config for that project, defining how to generate that sub-dir)
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01:45:50 <quintopia> zzo38: why did this render like this and what do i need to do to fix it: http://esolang.rutteric.com/files/oneill1.4.pdf
01:47:14 <zzo38> quintopia: What part is the problem?
01:48:17 <quintopia> zzo38: never mind. it's just PDF.js sucking.
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02:22:40 <zzo38> Is memcpy(malloc(sizeof(x)),&(x),sizeof(x)) proper?
02:23:58 <kmc> malloc might return NULL
02:24:05 <kmc> also maybe it's possible for x to have size 0?
02:25:10 <zzo38> I suppose these things are possible, but I don't expect that memcpy should do anything if the size is zero.
02:27:04 <kmc> malloc(0) is allowed to return NULL on success; I don't know if memcpy(NULL, x, 0) is allowed or not, but what you say is certainly plausible
02:28:41 <nucular> Am I the only one here getting sudden massive CTCP spam?
02:28:53 <kmc> who's it from?
02:29:18 <zzo38> If malloc(0) *does* return NULL on success, then memcpy(NULL, x, 0) should be allowed, too; it would be the sensible way.
02:29:19 <kmc> they aren't in this channel
02:29:26 <Bike> sounds like a reliable person
02:29:27 <nucular> seems like freenode is under a spambot attack
02:29:39 <kmc> zzo38: I agree, however ISO 9899 and POSIX and such are not always sensible :/
02:34:35 <nucular> Users being inside #freenode live dangerously it seems
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02:39:43 <zzo38> In my opinion the specification of malloc(0) ought to be: It doesn't matter what it returns (whether it is same every time or different every time, even), as long as free(malloc(0)) is allowed and does not damage the rest of the program, and furthermore that realloc(malloc(0),x) will be like malloc(x), and realloc(malloc(x),0) like malloc(0).
02:41:04 <zzo38> And furthermore, the results of malloc(0) can be used anywhere a pointer to a zero-length object is expected (such as with memcpy and memmove).
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02:46:34 <kmc> zzo38: yes, free(NULL) is allowed (whether or not malloc(0) returns NULL)
02:48:08 <kmc> sometimes you see such as #define extra_super_safe_free(x) do { free(x); x = NULL; } while (0)
02:48:21 <kmc> with the idea that double free() can be dangerous but extra_super_safe_free() is idempotent
02:49:03 <zzo38> I just do it myself when it is necessary, although I do suppose to use a macro would work too.
02:49:13 <kmc> my gut feeling is that this is ``too clever'' and will backfire in some way I'm not anticipating
02:49:17 <kmc> but *shrug*
02:50:24 <zzo38> You just have to ensure that x is a lvalue without side effects, I would think, as well that the macro is not itself called with a pointer to a object that is already destroyed or invalid
02:51:53 <zzo38> But it is useful even for reasons other than to be more safe; and actually those other reasons are the ones I would use them for, since rather I just wanted to record that it is not existing anymore.
02:52:05 <kmc> should C have a "post-assign" operator such that (supposing it were spelled =.) you could do free(x =. NULL) ?
02:52:50 <zzo38> A "post-assign" operator is actually something I have wanted to have, for other reasons too
02:52:56 <kmc> which reasons?
02:53:24 <zzo38> I do not remember, but I do know I have wanted it for other reasons.
02:54:53 <zzo38> Probably a macro can be made of it in GNU C using ({ ... })
02:55:35 <kmc> maybe, but how?
02:56:00 <kmc> GNU C is basically C fan fiction
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03:26:19 <zzo38> #define post_assign(x,y) ({ typeof(x) local1=x; x=y; local1; })
03:26:51 <kmc> hm, I suppose
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03:53:10 <Jafet> It's better than canon though
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03:54:44 <kmc> so what's the language extension equivalent of Erotic Versions of Star Trek Where All the Characters Are Furries, Like Kirk is an Ocelot or Something, and They Put A Furry Version of Themselves as the Star of the Story
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04:00:18 <kmc> http://brunching.com/images/geekchartbig.gif
04:00:22 <Jafet> I would totally read that fanfic itt
04:00:32 <kmc> -fheinous-gnu-extensions
04:01:33 <Bike> probably one of those C-with-a-shitload-of-macros-and-custom-preprocessor things
04:01:39 <Bike> like qt but for c, ic an't think of any xxamples
04:01:58 <kmc> zzo38: from where does the name Black-C come?
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04:26:19 <zzo38> kmc: From my own name. Black is my name.
04:26:29 <kmc> oh!! right
04:27:19 <ion> That’s racist
04:28:25 <zzo38> A lot of arrows go both ways.
04:33:49 <zzo38> ion: What are you saying is racist?
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05:06:39 <zzo38> There there public domain editions of the Bible which are English and have better quality than KJV (and that include deuterocanonical books, and perhaps also a few others)?
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05:06:52 <Bike> "There there"?
05:07:06 <zzo38> s/There there/Are there/
05:08:15 <Bike> hum, NIV's still in copyright
05:08:20 <kmc> KJV isn't public domain? oh right, in the UK it's under perpetual Crown copyright
05:08:31 <quintopia> zzo38: seems unlikely. if someone puts in the effort to retranslate, surely they'll want a little bit of recompense for the effort. but then, i don't know if people copyright bible translations ever.
05:09:18 <Bike> wikisource has some http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible
05:09:35 <quintopia> Bike: i would if i had done it, but it seems counter to the goal of spreading it as widely as possible
05:10:14 <Bike> you still might want to control derivative works, etc
05:10:18 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it has that problem, but it is also the quality I am looking for (and furthermore, academic more than religious)
05:10:53 <Bike> academic edition in the pd sounds like a nice dream, unfortunately
05:11:15 <quintopia> zzo38: yeah you're gonna pay for something as high-quality as an oxford bible
05:12:53 <kmc> maybe shachaf can translate some bible for you
05:13:20 <Bike> what the hell is gopher wood
05:13:23 <zzo38> quintopia: If I want an actual book (including with an index and everything like that) then I would pay, that would be fine; however I wanted a public domain copy which can be made the plain ASCII file in a computer.
05:14:19 <Bike> my experience with public domain plaintext is ungood (shudders at memories of victorian-era mahabharata)
05:14:28 <Bike> of translations*
05:15:16 <kmc> Bike: a good name for a band, is what
05:15:20 <kmc> but not as good as Kingpiss
05:15:39 <Bike> "The World English Bible (also known as the WEB) is a free updated revision of the American Standard Version (1901). It is one of the only public domain, modern-English translations of the entire Bible. It is freely distributed using electronic formats. The Bible was created on the base of the ASV by volunteers on the ebible.org project and edited by Rainbow Missions, Inc., a Colorado nonprofit corporation."
05:15:47 <Bike> i guess this is probably the best you're going to get
05:16:56 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01222007
05:18:04 <zzo38> If it isn't in plain text format, it can (hopefully) be converted, and if it contains some errors (in the translation, or just typographical), then can be improved (and if such improvements are made, it should clearly be marked as such; no confusion with original format please!)
05:18:17 <zzo38> Which books is it including/excluding?
05:19:28 <Bike> looks like it's got the usual stuff and the deuterocanon
05:19:47 <Bike> if you want mary or enoch i dunno what to tell you
05:19:59 <zzo38> That is good then, since some don't have deuterocanon.
05:20:00 <kmc> deuterocannon
05:46:47 <kmc> translate any bibles lately?
05:47:01 <kmc> what's in sf anyway
05:48:07 <Bike> um. wrong window.
05:48:19 <Bike> i assert that in sf is no
05:49:58 <kmc> are you prolog
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07:15:31 <Sgeo> Pokemon Yellow... is turing complete
07:15:32 <Sgeo> http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html
07:19:33 <Fiora> it's only turing complete since like, it has an arbitrary code execution vulnerability, right?
07:21:48 <zzo38> That's silly, the cartridge doesn't have an infinite amount of RAM in it.
07:22:56 <mauke> "Stuff which is somehow limited (stack overflows, arbitrary configuration, etc) is still considered Turing complete, since all "physical" Turing machines are resource limited."
07:33:30 <Bike> you should all watch the video corresponding to that hack
07:34:05 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UnB1fomvAw i think it's this one
07:35:50 <Bike> you can kinda see reality disintegrate
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08:49:27 <mroman> mauke: Even if the universe were infinite?
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09:13:51 <coppro> Q: what is the standard measure of old data?
09:34:37 <oerjan> @ask nucular <nucular> Am I the only one here getting sudden massive CTCP spam? <-- have you set the +i flag on yourself? iiuc it makes you invisible to spammers not in the same channel.
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11:25:06 <tertu> i don't think "turing-complete" could even apply to pokemon yellow
11:25:34 <tertu> gsc has a simple scripting system for in-game events and i assume you could figure its computational class
11:27:02 <coppro> http://tasvideos.org/3767S.html
11:27:44 <tertu> i guess the arrangement of the items is some sort of language
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11:48:23 <fizzie> Calling rebooting the game while saving to corrupt memory a "valid action[] (like walking from one place to another or buying items)" is kind of stretching it.
11:53:21 <Taneb> I bumped into one of my old sort-of friends from high school
11:53:26 <Taneb> Apparently he now programs in Haskell
11:53:32 <FreeFull> Everything in a TAS is allowed as long as it would be technically (but probably not) possible with just the original hardware, and it gets you to the ending screen
11:53:44 <FreeFull> Taneb: Talk to him about Haskell!
11:54:00 <Taneb> He... has no experience with a lot of features of Haskell
11:54:08 <mauke> have you accepted haskell curry as your lord and savior?
11:54:11 <FireFly> I've heard Earthbound's dialogue thing is a kinda complex scripting language
11:55:20 <fizzie> FreeFull: It wasn't really about what's allowed or not in a TAS, more about the chess analogy in the description. (Anyway, this run doesn't go to the ending screen.)
11:55:35 <Taneb> > [False] >>= \b -> False : if b then [True] else []
11:55:43 <mauke> it does go to *an* ending screen
11:55:52 <Taneb> > [False] >>= \b -> False : if b then [] else [True]
11:56:24 <Taneb> > let f b = False : if b then [] else [True] in [False] >>= f >>= f >>= f
11:57:31 <Taneb> > let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in [0] >>= f >>= f >>= f
11:57:37 <Taneb> > let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in [0] >>= f >>= f >>= f >>= f
11:59:08 <oerjan> > let f = ([id,(1-)]??) in [0] >>= f >>= f >>= f >>= f
11:59:10 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0]
12:01:37 <FreeFull> What's this sequence called again?
12:01:50 <oerjan> the thor-moose sequence hth
12:01:53 <FreeFull> I tried looking for it but found the dragon curve sequence instead
12:02:55 <zzo38> Thue-Morse sequence
12:03:10 <fizzie> The thor-moose sequence sounds very Norwegian.
12:03:16 <Taneb> (I was doing Lindenmayer's algae)
12:03:24 <oerjan> fizzie: surprisingly so was thue.
12:04:02 <oerjan> Taneb: i thought i recognized the fibonacci substitution.
12:04:45 <FreeFull> > let thue = 0 : map (1-) thue in thue
12:04:47 <lambdabot> [0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1...
12:05:09 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, it's quite close to the fibonacci one
12:05:29 <Taneb> > let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in [1] >>= f >>= f >>= f >>= f
12:05:37 <Taneb> That's the Fibonacci one
12:05:50 <oerjan> hm right there should be no fixpoint.
12:06:06 <Taneb> > let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in [1] >>= f >>= f >>= f >>= f >>= f
12:06:13 <Taneb> > let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in [1] >>= f >>= f >>= f >>= f >>= f >>= f
12:06:14 <lambdabot> [0,1,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,0,1]
12:06:22 <FreeFull> How do you do an infinite list of thue-morse?
12:06:33 <Taneb> > let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in fix (>=> f) [1]
12:06:48 <Taneb> > let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in fix (f >=> ) [1]
12:06:49 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num t0) arising from the literal `1'
12:06:49 <lambdabot> The type variable `t0' is ambiguous
12:06:49 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
12:06:49 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
12:06:49 <lambdabot> instance GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Double
12:06:59 <Taneb> @type let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in fix (f >=> )
12:07:12 <Taneb> @type let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in fix (>=> f)
12:07:18 <Taneb> @type let f 0 = [0,1]; f 1 = [0] in fix (>>= f)
12:07:34 <oerjan> > fix ((0:).drop 1.concatMap([id,(1-)]??))
12:07:36 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1...
12:08:45 <FreeFull> oerjan: Unnecessary space between the fix and (
12:09:07 <oerjan> > fix$(0:).drop 1.concatMap([id,(1-)]??)
12:09:08 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1...
12:09:24 <FreeFull> I mean, you can just drop the space altogether
12:09:36 <FreeFull> > fix((0:).drop 1.concatMap([id,(1-)]??))
12:09:38 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1...
12:09:45 <oerjan> that is longer than switching to $
12:10:09 <Taneb> > fix$(0:).tail.(=<<)([id,(-1)]??)
12:10:10 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
12:10:10 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M47647106981436577086096.show_M47647106981436577086...
12:10:10 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
12:10:10 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
12:10:10 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
12:10:31 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
12:10:33 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
12:11:10 <FreeFull> It uses the reader monad there
12:11:10 <Taneb> > fix$(0:).tail.(=<<)([id,(1-)]??)
12:11:12 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1...
12:14:07 <oerjan> > fix$(0:).tail.(<**>[id,(1-)])
12:14:08 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1...
12:22:55 <Taneb> It occurs to me I have no idea how to write a Thue-Morse sequence program in C
12:30:59 <FreeFull> It depends on how much you want to output
12:31:09 <FreeFull> If you want to keep outputting forever, you'll run out of memory
12:32:40 <Taneb> Well, I've written /something/ that seems to work
12:34:08 <Taneb> Only 5 KB compiled, too!
12:40:25 <Sgeo> "Icon Programming for Humanists"
12:42:24 <Sgeo> Icon having null is presented as an innovation compared to SNOBOL
12:42:30 <Sgeo> (in this article on rosettacode)
12:42:35 <Sgeo> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Icon%2BUnicon/Intro
12:42:47 <Sgeo> I... guess I can see how, especially after having experienced Tcl
12:46:49 * oklopol can play about a minute of thue-morse on guitar
12:50:00 <Sgeo> Unicon IDE... seems to be taking forever to compile Hello world
12:52:53 <Sgeo> Oh, I think the IDE is suppressing errors or something, because I got this running unicon from command line"
12:52:55 <Sgeo> "unicon: cannot open interpreter file"
12:55:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, didn't I complain about the (Un?)icon trick that powers 3 < x < 5 etc. being... weak somehow?
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12:57:25 <Sgeo> (x | y) = (3 | 5)
12:57:47 <Sgeo> > let x = 10; y = 5 in any $ (==) <$> [x, y] <*> [3,5]
12:57:48 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> GHC.Types.Bool'
12:57:48 <lambdabot> with actual type `[GHC.Types.Bool]'
12:58:21 <Sgeo> > let x = 10; y = 5 in any id $ (==) <$> [x, y] <*> [3,5]
12:58:50 <fizzie> (Possibly what you were looking for.)
12:59:27 <fizzie> Er, "or" is what I meant.
13:01:34 <Sgeo> Unicon basically lives in the List monad, right?
13:12:31 <Sgeo> Wait, why does table lookup need a "default" that defaults to &null?
13:12:47 <Sgeo> I thought Icon/Unicon's who schtick was avoiding that nonsense and just failing?
13:13:12 <Sgeo> Which, it occurs to me, doesn't work too well when there are multiple layers that may 'fail'
13:20:46 <oerjan> `addquote * oklopol can play about a minute of thue-morse on guitar
13:20:53 <HackEgo> 1150) * oklopol can play about a minute of thue-morse on guitar
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13:54:38 <Sgeo> Could get a bit uselessly recursive
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14:04:11 <Sgeo> In a non-lazy language, I can definitely see the any being primitive and or being derived as more efficient
14:04:22 <Sgeo> (Or, well, if working with non-lazy lists)
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14:40:46 <Sgeo> "Warning:For each data type discussed in section, there is a corresponding module in the Mozart system. The modules define operations on the corresponding data type. You may find more about these operations in The Oz Base Environment documentation"
14:40:52 <Sgeo> Why is this a warning?
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15:14:49 <zzo38> $$f_x(y)=\left(f_{x-1}^{y!}(y!)\right)^x+y$$ (where ^{y!} is a functional power)
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15:23:10 <zzo38> This is a kind of shogi variant, where initially all pieces is known, but later on, it might not be known exactly what kind of pieces they are, but you can try to figure out what it is. http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSunknownoffpiec
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15:50:43 <Sgeo> "In Oz there is syntactic support for module specification. The concept used is called functor ."
15:50:52 <Sgeo> DRINK for a language using the term 'functor' for something
15:51:00 <Sgeo> Although, is that the same meaning as in *MLs?
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15:57:25 <Slereah> Functor? I hardly know her!
16:06:25 <Vorpal> I really dislike the C++ use of the term functor
16:06:41 <Vorpal> It is basically an object overloading operator(), thus making it callable.
16:07:13 <Sgeo> Ok, Oz's ByNeed is interesting
16:07:31 <Sgeo> Basically, takes an explicit thunk and turns it into a lazy value
16:08:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, guess that's the same as any language that has some sort of native promise thing
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17:26:10 <Sgeo> I'm running Java 1.4 :/
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17:53:03 <Sgeo> This program depends on <7
17:53:12 <Sgeo> And has an installer that includes 4
17:53:21 <Sgeo> Trying to figure out WHY 7 breaks it
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18:55:29 <Sgeo> Ok. FUCK JUSTIN.TV IN THE ASS
18:56:37 <kmc> don't want to
18:57:12 <Sgeo> Information that that site portrays as confidential (a key to broadcast to a user's stream) is easily accessible by a link that you can make just by knowing a username
19:01:26 <kmc> nice, did you report this vuln?
19:01:39 <Sgeo> No, haven't tested it yet
19:01:48 <Sgeo> Want a volunteer
19:02:28 <Sgeo> (That's not unethical, right?)
19:04:12 <Sgeo> Hmm. False alarm.
19:05:38 <Sgeo> So yeah, URL contains username, but that doesn't mean you'll actually see that user's file
19:05:38 <Sgeo> It will show your own instead
19:22:09 <boily> good alarmist fternoon!
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20:02:01 <Edwardz> new favorite language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Suicide
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20:40:04 <impomatic> Is there a neat algorithm to turn an image of a 3d wireframe back into a 3d vector map?
20:41:04 <Bike> you mean, you're taking a 2d projection of a wireframe?
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20:42:09 <quintopia> impomatic: i think you would need at least two images of the wireframe from different angles
20:42:27 <impomatic> taking a 2d projection of a wireframe and working out the position of the 3d vectors.
20:42:28 <quintopia> and even then you have no guarantee due to inherent ambiguities
20:42:42 <Bike> yes, that's definitely ambiguous
20:42:55 <Bike> for example, the 3d figure could be flat :')
20:43:27 <quintopia> Bike: that would be noticed in the 2 images case
20:43:45 <quintopia> Bike: also you remind me of that new zealand art farm with the giant wire frame kleenex
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21:08:12 <boily> I was watching Shawn of the Dead with my dad :D
21:10:28 <boily> still dominicquing under the Hot Ball of Hydrogen?
21:11:22 <quintopia> if you want to come to atlanta, i'll walk you around stone mountain too :)
21:11:56 * boily looks at wikipédia's pictures of Stone Mountain. “it looks like a big rock.”
21:12:43 <boily> conversely, if you come to Montréal, there's Mont Royal.
21:12:57 <boily> (not quite as impressive, but it has weird Montrealers on it :D)
21:13:00 <quintopia> ...what a fitting name for the city
21:13:35 <boily> well, at first it was called Ville Marie. that's still the name of the Old Town borough.
21:13:48 <quintopia> stone mountain is probably about the same. it is a weird park. the other day i climbed it and there was a dude playing and singing oldies songs halfway up walking up and down in the woods with his guitar
21:14:19 <oerjan> logically, if they call a mountain stone mountain, there should be some other nearby mountain _not_ made of stone.
21:15:33 <quintopia> oerjan: it's perfectly logical when you consider that kennesaw mountin is entirely covered in trees and dirt. that stuff won't grow on the bubble of pure granite that is stone mountain.
21:15:51 <quintopia> in fact, there is no mountain nearby. it's rather a geological anomaly.
21:16:31 <oerjan> i assume from the spelling that kennesaw mountin has even more hillbillies
21:17:33 <quintopia> oerjan: better to assume i am a bad speller. kennesaw mountain is in the heart of one of atlanta's richer suburbs. not the richest, but solidly middle class.
21:19:18 <quintopia> it's also the site of kennesaw mountain national battlefield park, and one of the bloodier battles of the civil war.
21:19:33 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Basically, takes an explicit thunk and turns it into a lazy value <-- well that's just unsafePerformIO really >:)
21:20:55 <boily> oerjan: shh! the Maskarade! don't go and tell People the Dirty Haskell Secrets!
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21:36:26 <quintopia> boily: ok i'll come to montreal and you'll come to atlanta. consecutively. we'll make a vacation of it!
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22:04:24 <olsner> > (2560*1440) / (1280 * 768)
22:05:11 <oerjan> > (2560*1440) % (1280 * 768)
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23:48:37 <Vorpal> I just finished Brothers - A Tale of Two Sons. It is my new game of the year.
23:50:40 <Vorpal> And I think it is definitely in the top 3 of all time as well
23:51:06 <Bike> i hope these timings are not related
23:51:23 <Vorpal> Bike, what other timing?
23:51:35 <Vorpal> I just reattached to my bnc
23:51:52 <Bike> you picked your game of the year near the end of the year, and your game of all time...
23:52:34 <oerjan> 's ok time was overrated anyway
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00:17:54 <Vorpal> quintopia, PC, Xbox360 and also maybe PS3 I think?
00:18:21 <quintopia> Vorpal: well that's too bad. let me know when it gets ported to android :D
00:18:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, also you *really* need a game pad to play it, since you control one character with each analog stick
00:19:39 <quintopia> Vorpal: why can't i just use each half of a portrait-mode touchscreen?
00:20:03 <Vorpal> quintopia, well it isn't on a touch screen device
00:20:22 <Vorpal> Anyway I found touch screen game pad controls pretty terrible compared to the real deal
00:20:53 <quintopia> Vorpal: they can be. but they can be good too. for instance, survivalcraft on android
00:20:57 <Vorpal> I generally use my PS3 controller with my Nexus 10 tablet when playing that type of android game
00:21:05 <Vorpal> Works pretty well, but requires root
00:21:33 <Vorpal> There is a really good app for PS3 controllers
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00:33:04 <Vorpal> And I just bought the sound track for it as well.
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01:50:40 <kmc> "system default timezone" is a pretty weird concept in this age of clouds
01:51:55 <kmc> the only clock typically visible on my laptop is from an irssi session running on a VM on a physical machine located in I think Virginia, but I have that VM set to America/Los_Angeles because that's where I live
01:51:57 <Bike> utc-12, obviously, since nobody uses it
01:52:06 <kmc> but I don't update it when traveling, even though I do update my laptop's local tz
01:53:34 <quintopia> kmc: all of the above applies to me as well, except i set my vps to east coast US
01:59:12 <kmc> in this thread: Indiana has 11 IANA time zones
02:00:03 <Bike> i like to think indiana has a graveyard of discarded clocks.
02:00:20 <kmc> http://imgur.com/r/MapPorn/BPeLK is a kind of time zone map I was looking for the other day: deviation between legal time and mean solar time
02:00:46 <Bike> i'm glad nobody in the west actually uses utc+8 because that seems like it'd be a serious pain
02:01:53 <kmc> solar noon in Kashgar is around 3 PM
02:02:04 <kmc> Bike: what do they use?
02:02:20 <kmc> also Russia uses Moscow time everywhere for some things, like train timetables but not airplanes?
02:02:42 <Bike> i think they just use utc+5
02:02:45 <Bike> unofficially, of course
02:03:27 <kmc> I guess there is no DST so that's good enough
02:04:40 <kmc> Reddit's habit of labeling any image subreddit as "porn" is somewhat distasteful.
02:04:41 <lifthrasiir> let's abolish time zones and use an arbitrary chosen Biel mean time with a fancy commercial-at mark!
02:08:24 <Sgeo> I just took screenshots of a place that doesn't exist anymore
02:08:53 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/a/ddbUy
02:09:19 <Bike> I don't think this is Sardinia.
02:09:27 <quintopia> wow this map of spectator sport popularity is edifying
02:09:51 <quintopia> like, who would have guessed that basketball be most popular in estonia and lithuania, while latvia prefers hockey?
02:09:58 <kmc> sgeo autonomous oblast
02:10:33 <kmc> I hear 3 on 3 half-court basketball is suuuuuper popular in East Asia
02:11:01 <Bike> sgeo took a screenshot of the pale of settlement. tragic stuff.
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02:11:31 <quintopia> kmc: the most popular spectator sport in mongolia: wrestling. mongolians are true men! :D
02:12:29 <pikhq> I like how that's essentially a map of how stupid a time zone is.
02:17:41 <quintopia> apparently thailand is the only country where the most popular sport is volleyball
02:18:11 <quintopia> i think it says they have warm weather and nice beaches EVERYWHERE
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02:27:28 <kmc> brb going to thailand
02:28:02 <kmc> where's the sports-map?
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02:53:09 <nucular> I should totally build a BytePusher VM
02:55:12 * Sgeo misread that as buy
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04:37:25 <zzo38> MMIX instruction set has a "SWYM" instruction, which from what I can tell may be like a NOP instruction.
04:39:32 <kmc> "sympathize with your machinery" nice
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04:49:26 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/1tzbut/i_have_made_the_three_laws_of_logic_for_humans/
04:53:05 <zzo38> Is it necessary to have both LDO and LDOU instructions? It is supposed to be LDO for signed and LDOU for unsigned, but it loads into a 64-bit register there would be no bits to be signed extended anyways. There is no condition register either like in other instruction sets.
04:53:57 <kmc> might just be for consistency with loads of other sizes
04:56:50 <zzo38> Yes, although maybe it should just reserve it in case you need to customize the instruction set
04:57:29 <zzo38> (I don't know what GCC uses, but presumaly the assembler could be modified to work with customized instruction sets)
04:58:20 <Bike> does gcc just call out to gas
04:58:45 <coppro> I want to watch/read a let's play. any recommendations?
04:58:46 <Bike> ok, good. my experience with inbuilt assemblers is doubleplusungood
04:58:56 <Bike> coppro: scotsman in egypt
04:59:04 <Bike> and that one brain age tas
04:59:09 <kmc> although it calls gas with some flags that mean "don't bother checking this too hard because this code is totally legit"
04:59:24 <pikhq> Also, the inline assembly syntax is quite ignorant of the actual assembly code.
04:59:41 <coppro> brain age tas is pretty awesome, but it's a) kind of old and b) not a tas
04:59:46 <coppro> alternatively, I could play metroid ii
05:00:03 <pikhq> The constraints are all that GCC actually knows about; the assembly itself is taken as just an opaque stringe.
05:00:25 <zzo38> coppro: Watch the let's play game of Super ASCII MZX Town.
05:00:33 <Bike> it's always kind of funny/sad to see the \ns
05:00:42 <zzo38> (Maybe you need a knife)
05:01:27 <kmc> i like it when the "inline assembler" is entirely assembler directives with no instructions
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05:02:36 <Bike> that... happens?
05:03:33 <kmc> eg http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/01/embedding-gdb-breakpoints-in-c-source.html
05:03:46 <Bike> i should have known it was you, you anarchist
05:04:28 <kmc> is that a cat
05:05:54 <quintopia> zzo38: do you like the ideas of Chess 2: The Sequel
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05:06:17 <kmc> Bike: you can also use inline asm at the top level of a file: https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/8178050
05:09:06 <kmc> oh i don't need that "extern"
05:09:41 <pikhq> https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/arch/x86/boot/code16gcc.h Or, more usefully.
05:10:46 <kmc> http://livegrep.com/search/linux?q=%5Easm%5C(
05:13:29 <pikhq> It's a little more impressive if you know exactly what that's *for* in this case.
05:13:56 <pikhq> That tells gas that the code will be executed in real mode, so it should spew out the 32-bit operand prefixes for everything.
05:16:52 <kmc> and the assembly gcc outputs is correct in real mode without gcc doing anything special?
05:20:30 <zzo38> quintopia: Not really all that much. It is OK, but there are a lot of better chess variants too
05:20:52 <quintopia> zzo38: which ones do you think are better and why?
05:21:00 <pikhq> Basically, all the 32-bit opcodes are still there in 16-bit modes on x86, they're just spelled differently.
05:21:36 <Bike> anyone got any book recommendations? like, fiction. novels and short story collections.
05:22:05 <coppro> Bike: parahumans.wordpress.com, Anathem, Good Omens
05:22:32 <pikhq> Though you're running in a 16-bit flat address space when doing this, unless you hit unreal mode.
05:22:44 <zzo38> quintopia: The dueling rule is an interesting idea, though.
05:22:56 <quintopia> zzo38: it seemed like your kind of rule
05:23:08 <pikhq> Needless to say, it's a fragile hack.
05:23:31 <kmc> are there any esolangs where a program is a sound file? i see it mentioned on http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas
05:23:56 <Bike> there's at least one that uses midi.
05:23:57 <zzo38> The game is not bad, though.
05:24:04 <Bike> fugue, i think
05:24:14 <kmc> i found http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fugue through that, which is a really cool idea
05:24:26 <kmc> and I like the suggestion 'Combine the ideas behind Choon and Fugue into a single language where the programs are music and the output is music, then compose a piece called "Eine kleine Quinemusik".'
05:24:53 <Bike> probably the best brainfuck derivative
05:25:40 <nucular> Snowflake is my current favourite esolang
05:26:46 <kmc> you could split a sound file into blocks of time and compute a spectrum for each one and map those to Brainfuck commands, for example, but I wonder if there's something more interesting you could do with the spectra
05:27:13 <zzo38> I don't know if the midline rule is good as is, though. Maybe it should be farther across the board?
05:27:32 <kmc> perhaps the state of the virtual machine is itself such a spectrum and it combines with the spectrum at each time step in a nonlinear way
05:27:52 <Bike> modulation, one might say
05:27:56 <kmc> that makes it vaguely quantum-y
05:31:50 <kmc> brb building a computer out of guitar pedals and tape loop delay boxes
05:32:26 <Bike> well that's like puredata. just not sound itself.
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06:12:37 <Edwardz> If you have a general idea for a language, how do you check to make sure one similar doesn't exist?
06:21:53 <nooodl> explaining it in here might work
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08:56:52 <mroman> There's no need to check that :)
08:57:05 <mroman> Otherwise there wouldn't be soooo freaking many brainfuck derivatives
08:57:44 <coppro> anyone here familiar with http://www.idris-lang.org/ ?
09:02:14 <mroman> Are you sure that's not haskell with a different name?
09:02:35 <coppro> but given that it has dependent types
09:02:38 <coppro> it is probably not haskell
09:03:33 <mroman> I can't see any syntax differences except that :: is :
09:04:15 <mroman> but yeah. It's not haskell
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09:47:05 <Taneb> Today's Gunnerkrigg Court is cute
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10:08:03 <mroman> Yeah.... I don't even know what dependent types are
10:09:02 <coppro> mroman: when the type of something can depend on values
10:09:05 <mroman> other than the lamens description of it
10:09:11 <mroman> that it depends on an input value, yes
10:09:54 <coppro> there are a few things that make them interesting from a language design perspective
10:09:57 <mroman> which would suggest that the type is only known at runtime...
10:10:23 <coppro> well, the final type is not known until runtime
10:10:40 <coppro> unless you do various analyses at compile time
10:10:40 <mroman> Given that the type is String if its input is True otherwise its a Float
10:10:50 <coppro> but in practice, you have to make these analyses
10:10:59 <mroman> then typeof(foo (isSomeCrazyTheoryTrue)) is going to be difficult to tell at compile time
10:11:07 <coppro> because dependent types are undecideable in general
10:11:47 <coppro> that's what makes them interesting from a language design standpoint
10:13:09 <mroman> languages with dynamic types
10:13:21 <mroman> there is no *real* difference to dependent types?
10:13:47 <mroman> unless you don't account for that they may depend on hidden state
10:14:12 <mroman> but esentially dynamic types all depend on some value
10:18:01 <coppro> technically most dynamically typed languages have dependent types
10:18:16 <coppro> but that's so very different from statically-checked dependent types
10:18:33 <coppro> when you hear "dependently-typed language" it almost exclusively means staticallly checked
10:21:06 <mroman> which suggests that they are not turing complete
10:21:57 <mroman> which doesn't really matter for what they are being used for apparentely
10:23:44 <mroman> because there is at least one program that can't be typechecked
10:23:58 <coppro> if you like to gloss over a bunch of important definitions and details, they're turing complete
10:31:32 <mroman> Now I'm just angry because my school has absolutely nothing on that topic to teach
10:32:14 <mroman> "Introduction to proof assistants" would be an very interesting course
10:32:59 <coppro> it's a fairly specialized field
10:36:30 <oklopol> in the it department in turku, you don't learn what a turing machine is and probably you don't learn what first-class functions are either
10:36:32 <oerjan> mroman: turing completeness doesn't require every program in your language to be typechecked. it just requires it to be enough programs that can be, to emulate any turing machine.
10:37:31 <oklopol> (mainly because the math department teaches that stuff probably, but still it's really sad)
10:37:53 <oklopol> and luckily you can already do that without the dependent types
10:41:56 <mroman> you don't learn what first-class functions are here neither
10:42:09 <mroman> you don't even learn about functional programming languages
10:42:53 <mroman> what they do is make a 1500 slides long presentation about the .NET framework and then test that ;)
10:44:23 <oklopol> there's a course called declarative programming where you learn some scheme-like language (like 100 ways to print fibonacci type of stuff)
10:44:54 <oklopol> but almost no one takes that because you just read the book and take the exam
10:45:46 <oklopol> and a couple of other decent courses, but most are 1500 slides about java
10:46:39 <oklopol> there was one course about "ui techniques" where the lecturer basically went over the swing or whatever that one java library is called
10:46:52 <oklopol> meant to say went over the swing documentation
10:47:01 <oklopol> like all of it (or at least enough to fill the course)
10:47:30 <mroman> I don't pay them money to treat me like I'm stupid and can't read a library documentation
10:47:55 <oklopol> he kept saying things like "of course the details of how java does this don't matter so much, only the general idea"
10:47:57 <mroman> and I don't pay them money to force me to memorize a library documentation
10:48:05 <Taneb> mroman, my uni has a correctness by construction module but that's about as close as it gets
10:48:10 <mroman> but they do it anyway.
10:48:10 <oklopol> THEN WHY DID YOU GO OVER _ALL_ THE DETAILS?
10:48:19 <Taneb> And that's in the third year
10:48:41 <Taneb> (to proof assistants)
10:48:59 <Taneb> (functional programming is... slightly more common, one of my lecturers was an author of the Haskell report)
10:49:08 <oklopol> i thought you meant that's as close as it gets to reading java documentation.
10:49:18 <oklopol> "otherwise we do decent stuff"
10:50:07 <Taneb> oklopol, I am not very good at logreading, I got chronologically displaced
10:50:18 <HackEgo> [U+24B6 CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A]
10:50:29 <HackEgo> [U+00F6 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS]
10:51:17 <HackEgo> [U+BDC1 HANGUL SYLLABLE BWELG]
10:51:46 <HackEgo> [U+9577 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9577]
10:52:39 <HackEgo> [U+D2BD HANGUL SYLLABLE TEUNJ]
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10:58:15 <Taneb> Apparently, C# was designed to be safe, fast, and easy
10:58:33 <mroman> lifthrasiir: only to the untrained eye
10:59:08 <mroman> or with a poor or small font
11:00:45 <lifthrasiir> oklopol: it's pronounced teun ("eu" being a vowel similar to "u" here), "j" is there for explaining various side effects with the following syllable
11:05:20 <oklopol> i knew this korean guy once
11:05:38 <oklopol> but i don't know any korean
11:08:53 <oklopol> in the sense that there are no circles or rectangels
11:09:11 <oklopol> well a very small rectangle i guess but it's hidden
11:09:53 <oklopol> "There are seven verb paradigms or speech levels in Korean, and each level has its own unique set of verb endings which are used to indicate the level of formality of a situation."
11:10:16 <lifthrasiir> seven paradigms and thousands of possible postpositions/suffixes.
11:14:30 <oklopol> i knew the korean guy because i was learning japanese and he was learning finnish, one time i asked him something like "korean has some type of honorifics too" (like japanese)
11:15:08 <oklopol> and he was like lol you call these honorifics
11:15:27 <oklopol> (referring to the japanese ones)
11:15:41 <oklopol> sorry i'm telling this story badly because i'm supposed to be downloading something for my gf.
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11:20:21 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: do you use all of them
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11:24:20 <lifthrasiir> oklopol: do you really think that I can count all of them? :x
11:24:41 <lifthrasiir> I have some knowledge of Japanese but not much.
11:25:15 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: just mean the 7 paradigms
11:25:41 <mroman> sono ringo wo tabetai noni tabemasen <- that's about what I know :)
11:25:42 <oklopol> do you like have, for each paradigm, a couple of people you use it with
11:25:58 <lifthrasiir> oklopol: ah, I think not, there are some paradigms that have been obsoleted so far.
11:26:09 <oklopol> i don't eat that apple because i want to eat it?
11:26:11 <lifthrasiir> and I don't agree on the whole concept of seven paradigms at all
11:26:38 <lifthrasiir> oklopol: maybe "I want to eat that apple but can't"
11:27:12 <oklopol> i can't quite recall what noni means
11:28:12 <oklopol> not quite the same as because i guess
11:29:58 <oklopol> watashi wa sukoshi nihongo o benkyousurukoto ga arimasu
11:30:17 * oklopol generates a random list of words
11:35:10 * oerjan wonders where sukoshi is these days
11:37:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26340
11:38:49 <oerjan> `seen ... ever doesn't work too well when it's _really_ been a long time :(
11:40:31 <oerjan> hm here website is still running and looks updated.
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11:44:01 <lifthrasiir> oklopol: the reason that I don't buy seven paradigms is simple, it does not fit to the current usage at all
11:45:16 <lifthrasiir> the "paradigms" are in fact a combination of T-V distinction (formality) and honorifics in my opinion
11:46:48 <lifthrasiir> there are no clean distinction and hierarchy among numerous honorifics (i.e. only partial ordering exists)
11:47:42 <lifthrasiir> and so-called paradigms are merely a set of related honorifics that are used altogether (but sometimes not)
11:50:06 <lifthrasiir> the current usage is much more like a simple distinction between informal and formal context, with contextual honorifics
11:52:07 <Slereah> T-V meaning tensor-vector, I assume
11:52:16 <Slereah> Much like the old weak interaction theory
11:53:01 <oerjan> since you're french i assume you're joking.
11:53:21 <oerjan> you're obviously joking.
11:53:35 <oerjan> but since you're french i assume you also know the real meaning.
11:54:40 <Slereah> (We don't actually use that word)
11:57:27 <oklopol> we still have a bit of a tv in finnish, but we're trying our best to get rid of it
11:58:35 <Slereah> I assume you mean transvestite
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14:30:31 <metasepia> KATL 301352Z 31007KT 9SM FEW044 SCT200 BKN250 06/04 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP208 VIRGA SW T00560044
14:30:36 <metasepia> CYQB 301400Z 25021G27KT 20SM BLSN FEW025 FEW045 M14/M18 A2980 RMK SC1SC2 SC TR PRESRR SLP097
14:46:48 <mroman> I just tried to estimate how many pages I'd need to use to write all my knowledge down :)
14:47:31 <mroman> how many pages would the total human knowledge fill
14:47:38 <mroman> including deduplication of course
14:47:43 <mroman> which is gonna be hard to estimate
14:48:33 <metasepia> EFHK 301420Z 25012KT 9999 FEW011 BKN013 03/01 Q1010 NOSIG
14:48:40 <fizzie> It's like the strangest weather, it's a flat +3 .. +5 °C every day, night and day.
14:57:34 <metasepia> LSZH 301450Z 35003KT 300V020 9000 SCT013 SCT018 03/M00 Q1025 NOSIG
15:14:24 <metasepia> ESSA 301450Z 23007KT CAVOK 01/M01 Q1015 R01L/29//95 R08/29//95 R01R/750166 NOSIG
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15:36:01 <boily> I wonder how squirrels can survive outside in Canadian winters...
15:39:14 <boily> if they hibernated that'd make more sense than running arround on electric lines all winter long.
15:39:43 <boily> (apart from the bizareness of the situation, it's a nice sight to gaze upon when trying to debug badly engineered code.)
15:39:59 <olsner> electric lines? maybe they discovered electric heating
15:40:29 <boily> power lines, not electric. (my French is slipping again... «fils électriques».)
15:40:42 <olsner> and are you already back at work?
15:41:05 <boily> I worked last week, and I'm working this week, but I'm still at my parents'.
15:52:34 <fizzie> Maybe they steal energy from the power lines by induction?
16:00:08 <boily> that would explain their running. a magnetic squirrel moving relatively to an EM field would produce current. and because squirrel have a non-null resistance (I hope squirrels aren't superconductors), they heat.
16:00:53 <olsner> research continues on squirrel-temperature super conductors
16:08:35 <boily> what is the average surface area of a transverse squirrel cross-section?
16:09:36 <olsner> well, that would've been something else if backspace was not so close to enter
16:09:46 <boily> (“A sciurinæ or a xerinæ?“ “I don't know. Ayeeeeeeeee!”)
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17:17:23 <boily> meanwhile, herobrine confirmed removed in 1.8.
17:20:29 <olsner> fungot: you hate herobrine, right?
17:20:30 <fungot> olsner: but _you_ said that any sufficiently complicated common lisp or scheme. shivers is hiding in his lair at ga tech and lay siege upon olin's office in order to
17:20:43 <olsner> fungot: I said no such thing
17:20:44 <fungot> olsner: well, i already have my right hand and had to check that
17:21:32 <boily> olsner: fungot checked. you said it.
17:21:33 <fungot> boily: all whitespace between the sexpr delimiters remains untouched. would *you* believe a claim the it was a major program, mis management information systems.
17:22:37 <olsner> hmm, mis management information systems, isn't that what you're working with?
17:23:17 <boily> I deny any implication I'm misinformating for money.
17:23:24 <shachaf> fungot: do you swear or affirm that olsner said it
17:23:24 <fungot> shachaf: s k and fnord? to avoid cluttering the namespace with names like head tail.
17:25:52 <fungot> shachaf: i was confused again. ' huh what did that mean? i know some of those
17:26:20 <shachaf> fungot: you gotta know them all
17:26:20 <fungot> shachaf: when will you find out how many bytes a jmp call would take. no other reason than the fact that people can watch the original lectures
17:26:51 <boily> fungot: from whom?
17:26:51 <fungot> boily: so the until-test will change their minds
17:27:31 <shachaf> fungot: until (their minds are changed) { show them the original lectures }?
17:27:32 <fungot> shachaf: only things in that directory. this way of conditional jump. no saving of the stack. why make every implementation keep waaaaay more functionality that is found in macosx?
17:27:36 <boily> as the Master said to the Pupil: “you will understand the Namespace Original Lectures when you Mind will have been Changed byt the Until-Test.”
17:28:05 <shachaf> boily: that is the Way of the Conditional Jump
17:28:46 <fungot> shachaf: srfi-18 to be specific
17:30:32 <fungot> fizzie: mostly using scheme in your kernel: http://savannah.nongnu.org/ projects/ fnord/ examples/ fnord that?
17:30:41 <fizzie> Yeah, that sounds like the way to go.
17:31:17 <shachaf> Perhaps fungot *is* fizzie.
17:31:17 <fungot> shachaf: not an issue here.)" fnord norvig is a traitor!!
17:32:10 <fizzie> Today I got a coin with my face on it. (There was a show about coins at the local "science center", and it included this machine where you could take a photo and have a machine use lasers to burn it on a coin.)
17:32:14 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't think it works as money anywhere.
17:33:23 <shachaf> in fact i would take it at face value
17:34:18 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131230-coin.jpg it looks like that
17:34:43 <shachaf> he latest in cryptocurrency
17:34:49 <fizzie> (I forgot to photograph the other side, but it just has the http://heureka.fi/ logo on it.)
17:35:25 <shachaf> OK, that looks like the face value is 2013 fizzies.
17:35:35 <shachaf> Not sure if I can afford that.
17:35:48 <fizzie> The cost of postage would be great.
17:37:16 <shachaf> fungot: can i have a coin with YOUR face on it
17:37:17 <fungot> shachaf: all bf-complete with upper memory bound 40" at
17:37:29 <shachaf> fungot: can i have a hug with your face on it :'(
17:37:30 <fungot> shachaf: am i the only one i've been toying around with beamer, but i really like are the use of an interface. what point are you trying to do
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18:27:58 <kmc> https://twitter.com/search?q=smell%20colon
18:28:29 <boily> whyyyyyyyyy do people /join then immediately /part... I need my daily fix of `relcomming!
18:28:47 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:30:17 * boily grins, relaxes, slumps in his chair like a junkie.
18:30:44 <fizzie> Misread "grinds". Made that sound slightly suspicious.
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18:31:00 <boily> fizzie: you gutterminded fiend.
18:31:11 <fizzie> Like, I don't know what got ground there.
18:31:32 <Bike> geez fizzie, it was just a perfectly innocent #drugz reference
18:32:03 <olsner> #drugz references are never innocent
18:33:20 <kmc> re "grinds" https://twitter.com/unhush/status/416404349527396352
18:33:36 <boily> every time someone referes to #drugz, one of the FSM's noodles gets boiled past al dente.
18:34:38 <boily> (the pastafarian equivalent to one tanathokitten.)
18:39:17 <kmc> ah "al dente"
18:41:28 <kmc> omg 30C3 has a pneumatic mail system with 1.4 km of tubes
18:41:32 <kmc> so wish I had gone
18:41:43 <kmc> screw your christmas mom and dad, I'm going to party with a bunch of German hackers
18:42:04 -!- conehead has joined.
18:42:39 <Bike> rip kmc, partied too hard
18:45:57 <boily> dibs on every maple-y possession of kmc!
18:51:35 <boily> shachaf: he's dead. you can have anything else if you want.
18:58:59 -!- conehead has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:59:51 -!- conehead has joined.
19:06:50 <kmc> torrent stalled at 99.9% WHYYYYY
19:07:02 <kmc> sinners in the hands of an angry god
19:07:17 <Bike> ur like a spider over the flame
19:09:59 <kmc> a snail crawling along the edge of a straight razor
19:10:25 <Bike> i... don't remember that part
19:11:38 <boily> ur like a babylonian.
19:14:46 <shachaf> simmer in the hands of an angry god for 30 minutes, then serve immediately
19:16:06 <Bike> http://boscoh.com/protein/a-sign-a-flipped-structure-and-a-scientific-flameout-of-epic-proportions.html remember to test your code, friends
19:16:17 <boily> summer in the hands of an angry god for 3 months, then season accordingly.
19:19:02 <kmc> shachaf: lift your skinny fists like antennas to heaven
19:21:13 <shachaf> a 2000 double album released by the Canadian post-rock group Godspeed You! Black Emperor.
19:21:49 <kmc> Montrealer post-rock group, even
19:22:19 <shachaf> is a post-rock a rock that you attach a message to and throw through someone's window
19:22:39 <Bike> no, that's rock-post. a post-rock is a rock you use to hammer posts into the ground.
19:22:42 <boily> shachaf: a post-rock is the analog version of an authenticating HMAC.
19:22:58 <boily> Bike: double means they use key strengthening.
19:25:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:26:00 <boily> hezzo38. quick! grab everything you want from kmc!
19:26:45 <kmc> i'm not dead yet
19:29:18 <zzo38> I don't think there is something I wanted to grab from kmc, as far as I know.
19:30:09 <Bike> i call his devastating good looks and saving accounts
19:30:22 <kmc> thanks bike
19:30:40 <zzo38> In some MUD other people can grab everything they want from me when I am dead, but that's only for me, not if other people are dead.
19:31:05 <kmc> zzo38: organ donor
19:31:43 <zzo38> kmc: I don't need any of your organ at this time.
19:32:02 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> kmc: I don't need any of your organ at this time.
19:32:06 <HackEgo> 1151) <zzo38> kmc: I don't need any of your organ at this time.
19:32:12 <Bike> hm, would getting kmc's thalamus too be too greedy
19:32:25 <kmc> i,i I don't need any of your oerjan at this time
19:32:58 <Bike> how many oerjan do you have zzo38
19:33:58 <Bike> response invalid
19:35:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Oerjan'
19:35:58 <zzo38> I can't take it with you with the IRC anyways, but that is OK because it isn't necessary anyways. Therefore, it is OK that I don't think there is something I wanted to grab from kmc, as far as I know.
19:37:07 <shachaf> kmc: organ donor more like organ doner
19:40:28 <shachaf> @let just :: a -> Maybe a; just _ = Nothing
19:49:41 <shachaf> kmc: did you know ¬¬LEM is unprovable constructively
19:49:58 <kmc> how do you prove that
19:50:27 <mauke> I,I nstructive coproof
19:50:50 <shachaf> the distinction is between ¬¬(forall a. a + ¬a) and forall a. ¬¬(a + ¬a)
19:52:49 <zzo38> I would though, think that (Cont r (Either a (a -> Cont r b))); you have to apply the double-negative transform (or continuation passing transform) to *both* sides, isn't it?
19:56:08 <mauke> <ttk> I've been using turned-E as shorthand for "exists" since college, and in recent years I've been using turned-K for "known". The former is a standard logical convention, but I pulled the latter out of my ass. Is there a conventional symbol for "known"?
19:57:06 <zzo38> What logic will use a symbol for "known", anyways?
19:58:36 <mauke> <ttk> it comes up in epistemological analysis, which comes up often in distributed systems
19:58:57 <mauke> <f0rk> the logic where you pull something out of your ass and assert it
19:59:12 <mauke> <ChoHag> f0rk: That comes up in business analysis.
19:59:31 <mauke> <ttk> w00t .. a geek in another channel pointed me at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_logic#Syntax
20:01:40 <boily> mauke: are you implying there are other chännels out there as geeky as us?
20:02:01 <Bike> i have never eaten a chicken head
20:02:48 <mauke> <f0rk> I've never eaten a chicken head either
20:02:58 <Bike> thanks for your support f0rk
20:03:34 <mauke> <ChoHag> You've never eaten a mcnugget?
20:03:51 <Bike> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_show
20:04:54 <kmc> shachaf: interesting
20:05:17 <kmc> mmmmmmodal logic
20:06:04 <mauke> boily: irc.perl.org/#perl
20:06:25 <boily> nah. not gonna join. #perl people make me feel... squeamish.
20:06:36 <boily> Bike: I think I never ate a chicken head. probably.
20:07:03 <Taneb> I am NOT in the mood for binomial expansion
20:07:05 <kmc> what did #perl people do
20:07:14 <kmc> `addquote <Taneb> I am NOT in the mood for binomial expansion
20:07:18 <HackEgo> 1152) <Taneb> I am NOT in the mood for binomial expansion
20:07:25 <mauke> because the one on irc.perl.org is more like #perl-blah
20:07:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:07:35 <Taneb> 1 - 3x + 3x^2 - x^3, right?
20:07:51 <boily> mauke: scratch the hash. perl people in general weird me.
20:08:24 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:08:42 * oerjan spots (1 - x)^3 expanded
20:08:48 <Bike> Taneb: shouldbe
20:09:13 <mauke> @check \x -> 1 - 3*x + 3*x^2 - x^3 == (1 - x)^3
20:09:23 <Bike> the saddest algebra
20:09:50 <Taneb> Of course, my use for this is virtually non-existent
20:10:05 <Taneb> I'm trying to derive a list 2-zipper
20:10:11 <oerjan> i guess recognizing a few levels of pascal's triangle is a good math skill
20:10:29 <Taneb> oerjan, I can, but not at this time of the day
20:11:28 <Taneb> Which is why I missed something obvious four lines of working earlier
20:11:37 <boily> mauke: have you read this year's tasty blogpost in 24 days of hackage?
20:14:04 <Taneb> Hmm, it still feels like this carries too much information
20:14:12 <boily> mauke: http://ocharles.org.uk/blog/posts/2013-12-03-24-days-of-hackage-tasty.html, and also http://ocharles.org.uk/blog/guest-posts/2013-12-09-24-days-of-hackage-sbv.html
20:14:35 <boily> mauke: also, https://github.com/pfcuttle/twentyfour-2013 (that one needs to be updated to cover the latest posts...)
20:14:53 <boily> mauke: glad to see you fully embrace this chännel's diæresisity :D
20:15:23 <mauke> I also support `àwesome quoteś´
20:16:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ẁoẃ´: not found
20:16:35 <boily> mauke: I also mapped some keys on my ░▒▓█layout█▓░ to get fancy blocks, but I don't use them often.
20:16:38 <Taneb> Best I can do manually is ListZipper2 = LZ2 a (Maybe (a, [a])) [a] [a]
20:17:34 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa
20:17:38 <shachaf> what are you trying to do here
20:18:36 <mauke> boily: meh, tasty looks overcomplicated
20:18:42 <Taneb> shachaf, be less curry infested
20:18:59 <Taneb> Also oh god that is wrong
20:19:06 <boily> mauke: but I understand it! (fsvo understanding.)
20:19:09 <Taneb> I should have trusted my maths
20:19:15 <mauke> boily: I'd rather have Test::More
20:19:53 <boily> Taneb: maybe you should trust oerjan.
20:20:40 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad.
20:21:18 <fizzie> I learned that from fungot, unsurprisingly.
20:21:18 <fungot> fizzie: it's mine, and hope we both post to the wiki
20:21:20 <boily> (previously, fizzie was also the creator of minecraft.)
20:21:29 <oerjan> `learn fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131230-coin.jpg
20:21:40 <Taneb> ...I am ssh'ing to a server where I have nano open which I am using to do differentiation
20:21:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you think it looks kingly?
20:21:57 <boily> oh fungot. now I'm stuck to insert pictures into the PDF.
20:21:58 <fungot> boily: they implement dynamic-wind call/ cc?
20:22:07 <fizzie> oerjan: (Also I guess only king for the rest of 2013.)
20:22:10 <boily> fungot: no. it's a stack-based language.
20:22:10 <fungot> boily: the scheme markup/ document preparation system out there, and it would be better
20:22:13 <oerjan> fizzie: you don't get more royal around here
20:22:26 <fizzie> Slereah: It's a fizziecoin, I hear they're the latest craze.
20:22:42 <boily> wow. much value. such PDF. very Finland!
20:22:45 <shachaf> oerjan: can i be king of #esoteric 2014
20:23:05 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: Changing server).
20:23:10 <Bike> nt sure you're qualified to be tiger in chief
20:23:53 -!- coppro_ has joined.
20:24:22 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro.
20:24:23 <Bike> please provide a CV listing your previous chieftanisms
20:24:42 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v boily.
20:24:44 <boily> also, to examples of zebrafish genetic modifications.
20:25:18 <boily> I AM THE (HOW DO I INSERT FIGURES AGAIN?) VOICE!
20:25:22 <oerjan> `fetch https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131230-coin.jpg
20:25:24 <mauke> "It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter." --Nathaniel Borenstein
20:25:27 <HackEgo> 2013-12-30 20:25:26 URL:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131230-coin.jpg [230556/230556] -> "20131230-coin.jpg" [1]
20:25:52 <shachaf> Bike: i am cuddly like a tiger and also soft and have fur and stripes
20:25:57 <shachaf> and there are no other tigers in here
20:25:59 <oerjan> `run mv 20131230-coin.jpg src/fizziecoin.jpg
20:26:12 <oerjan> `url src/fizziecoin.jpg
20:26:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
20:26:57 <oerjan> `learn fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
20:27:12 <Taneb> `? people who taneb is not
20:27:14 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
20:27:38 <Taneb> fizzie is not on that list
20:27:43 <Taneb> Therefore I am fizzie
20:27:53 <Taneb> Therefore I am not winning... :(
20:29:22 <oerjan> <boily> oh fungot. now I'm stuck to insert pictures into the PDF. <-- whoops. well i'm sure it's possible somehow.
20:29:22 <fungot> oerjan: newtype location location fnord:: double... line though.
20:30:49 <fungot> olsner: it's a fnord gate, copy the stack into somewhere else in your family?
20:31:38 <olsner> under the overpass, over the undertow, through the fnord gate, copy the stack and receive fungot
20:31:38 <fungot> olsner: does someone from peoria have a shorter version with just cons* macros.
20:31:53 <zzo38> I have some more idea too, about some kind of computer game based on ideas in another dream I have had previously
20:32:38 <oerjan> i am currently having problems distinguishing zzo38 and fungot.
20:32:38 <fungot> oerjan: gauche " hello, world!" get into there? iteration is where it's at.
20:32:58 <zzo38> oerjan: Then turn on the display of the sender of each message.
20:34:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:34:12 <boily> oerjan: the PDF, it is updated.
20:34:25 <boily> I added the fizziecoin to it.
20:35:42 <fizzie> If I knew it was going to end up in print, I'd've uploaded a higher-resolution version.
20:35:48 <Bike> is there a website that emulated mosaic or netscape or something so i can see old renders of modern webistes to amuse myself
20:36:23 <Bike> see, that sounds suspiciously like work.
20:36:44 <oerjan> <kmc> https://twitter.com/search?q=smell%20colon <-- you know, i think i'll pass.
20:36:50 <boily> I need to find a publisher who can get me the PDF printed on A5 paper...
20:37:01 <kmc> oerjan: it's way funnier than you think
20:37:15 <boily> kmc: I'll admit it took me a few tweets to understand what was going on.
20:37:51 <oerjan> kmc: will my mind and remaining faith in humanity survive visiting it?
20:38:08 <shachaf> oerjan: wait you still have some left
20:38:36 * boily lends some of his own sanity over to oerjan
20:39:42 * oerjan now is somehow thoroughly convinced of his sanity despite all the evidence
20:45:42 * oerjan thinks his sanity survived that link, in a hypothetical manner
20:45:51 <boily> The Convinsanity Brand®! The best OTC sanity on the market! For all your sanity troubles, demand Convinsanity!
20:46:26 <boily> (side effects may include delusions, sightings of moose, alopecia, and a hunger for tofu. If you are a pregnant marmoset, do not take Convinsanity.)
20:47:15 <lambdabot> *** "alopecia" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:47:16 <lambdabot> n 1: loss of hair (especially on the head) or loss of wool or
20:47:17 <lambdabot> feathers; in humans it can result from heredity or hormonal
20:47:21 <lambdabot> imbalance or certain diseases or drugs and treatments
20:48:16 * oerjan gives boily's sanity back, after spraying it with colon
20:49:16 <boily> fizzie: your bot has contaminated and corrupted mine. he hasn't balanced his parenthesises!
20:49:45 <boily> speaking of moose, I forgot my orange one on my desk back in Montréal.
20:49:46 <mauke> preflex: calc (1 + 2
20:49:55 <mauke> who needs balanced parens anyway
20:49:59 <oerjan> boily: you did not say removing your sanity again would cause instant near-fatal laughter
20:50:34 <boily> oerjan: I'm listening to an experimental album. it is forbidden by law to laugh during listening to experimental music.
20:51:23 -!- ais523 has left ("<fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api").
20:51:30 <boily> hm. not very talkative, eh?
20:51:35 <mauke> its default action is silence
20:51:46 <boily> preflex: calc head [1, 2, 3]
20:51:57 <boily> preflex: calc [2] .* [3]
20:52:23 <oerjan> preflex: calc (head [1, 2, 3]
20:52:33 <mauke> preflex: calc 1 2 3 + *
20:53:43 <oerjan> preflex: calc 2 2 2 2 2 ^ ^ ^ ^
20:54:30 <mauke> exercise: explain why the expression above results in 7
20:54:32 <boily> ~eval 2 ^ 2 ^ 2 ^ 2 ^ 2
20:54:39 <boily> ~eval 2 ^ 2 ^ 2 ^ 2 ^ 2
20:54:40 <metasepia> 20035299304068464649790723515602557504478254755697514192650169737108940595563114530895061308809333481010382343429072631818229493821188126688695063647615470291650418719163515879663472194429309279820843091048559905701593189596395248633723672030029169695921561087649488892540908059114570376752085002066715637023661263597471448071117748158809141357427209671901518362825606180914588526998261414250301233911082736038437678764490432059603791244909057075603140350
20:54:59 <olsner> some tall numbers for a cuttlefish
20:55:34 <metasepia> Error (1): <hint>:1:9: parse error on input `*'
20:57:52 <oerjan> preflex: calc 1 2 + 3 *
20:58:29 <oerjan> preflex: calc * + 1 2 3
20:59:04 <oerjan> preflex: calc + * 1 2 3
20:59:58 <oerjan> preflex: calc 1 1 1 1 1 1 * + * + +
21:00:19 <oerjan> my theory seems to hold
21:00:41 <oerjan> preflex: calc 2 ^ 2 ^ 2 ^ 2 ^ 2
21:00:47 <mauke> what is your theory?
21:00:49 <boily> preflex: calc 1 2 2 2 + * *
21:01:02 <boily> preflex: calc + * * 1 2 2 2
21:01:06 <boily> preflex: calc + * * 2 2 2 1
21:01:12 <boily> what the fungot is going on.
21:01:12 <fungot> boily: gonna go get it now? i seem to remember
21:01:31 <oerjan> that it's spreading the operators between the numbers and then interpreting the result as infix
21:02:30 <mauke> yeah, that's equivalent to the truth
21:02:41 <boily> mauke: but then, + * * 1 2 2 2 should produce 12?
21:03:02 <boily> operator precedence.
21:03:12 <mauke> preflex: calc 1( + 2
21:03:16 <mauke> how about this one?
21:03:30 <boily> preflex: calc (1 2) 2 2 + * *
21:03:51 <mauke> preflex: calc 1 2 2 2 +) * *
21:05:13 <oerjan> preflex: calc 2 2 2 2 2 ^ ) ^ ) ^ ) ^
21:06:27 <oerjan> preflex: calc 2 2 2 2 2 ^ ( ^ ^ ) ^
21:06:58 <lambdabot> 115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007913129639936
21:08:04 <oerjan> i am guessing it adds ('s to the left end and )'s to the right end until parentheses balance
21:08:29 <mauke> that's the string rewriting interpretation
21:09:29 <mauke> the actual parsing algorithm is one I invented myself when I didn't know about recursive descent
21:09:49 <oerjan> preflex: calc 2 2 2 ( ( ^ ^
21:10:21 <mauke> consider a simple expression of the form expr := value (operator value)*
21:10:47 <mauke> that is, an expression is a sequence of one or more values with operators in between
21:11:24 <mauke> the parser proceeds by reading symbols from left to right and inserting each into the expression tree
21:12:04 <mauke> the expression tree starts out as a simple value hole at the root
21:12:36 <mauke> each value is inserted at the hole (there is always exactly one hole when a value is read)
21:13:07 <mauke> operators climb down the right hand side of the tree
21:13:44 <mauke> when they hit a value, they replace it by a new node of the form (operator, value, <hole>), thus forming a new hole at the rightmost leaf of the tree
21:13:58 <mauke> when they hit an operator, they do battle by comparing their precedence
21:14:56 -!- carado has joined.
21:15:10 <mauke> if the new operator has a higher precedence, it continues climbing down
21:15:27 <mauke> otherwise it does an insert at the current node, using the old node as its left subtree
21:16:09 <oerjan> what happens when you insert more than one value before getting any operators
21:16:22 <mauke> doesn't happen in the current model
21:16:33 <mauke> we're still considering simple expressions only
21:16:56 <oerjan> preflex: calc 1 1 1 1 + + +
21:17:14 <mauke> parens are handled by giving each operator node an instance precedence (in addition to its base precedence)
21:17:47 <mauke> e.g. + has a base precedence of 1 (and * 2)
21:18:30 <oerjan> mauke: in 1 1 1 1 + + + what happens when the second 1 is parsed
21:18:37 <mauke> instance precedence = current level * max precedence + base precedence
21:18:47 <mauke> the current level starts out as 0
21:18:58 <mauke> ( increments the current level; ) decrements it
21:19:31 <mauke> thus )+ forms an operator with precedence = -1 * 3 + 1 = -2
21:20:12 <mauke> what preflex actually uses is an extension of this algorithm
21:20:25 <mauke> all values are put into a separate list
21:20:26 <oerjan> preflex: calc 1 1 1 1 ( ) + + +
21:20:39 <mauke> the operators are used to construct the expression tree
21:20:49 -!- Zuu has changed nick to Z[_].
21:20:49 <mauke> all leaves of the expression tree will be holes
21:20:56 <mauke> then the values are inserted from left to right
21:21:47 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:22:00 <mauke> preflex: calc 1 + + 2
21:22:19 <mauke> it first checks to see whether the number of holes matches the number of values
21:24:37 <mauke> ploki doesn't use this algorithm because I knew even less about parsers when I "designed" ploki
21:24:55 <mauke> (ploki simply evaluates left to right)
21:25:04 -!- yiyus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:26:29 -!- Z[_] has changed nick to Z[_][_].
21:27:52 <mauke> `run echo '(1 + 2 * 3' | ploki
21:28:01 <mauke> (but you still don't have to balance your parens)
21:28:01 -!- yiyus has joined.
21:29:07 -!- Z[_][_] has changed nick to Z[_][_][_].
21:30:27 <oerjan> `run echo '(1 + 2) * (3 + 4)' | ploki
21:32:03 -!- Z[_][_][_] has changed nick to Zuu.
21:37:13 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
21:39:42 <oerjan> @tell elliott i'm not sure if that thing you removed was trolling, but if not it's probably something worse than lolcode...
21:40:48 <boily> worse than lolcode?
21:41:20 <oerjan> boily: the poster seemed to speak entirely in lolspeak
21:41:38 <elliott> I reverted it because I know exactly what it is
21:41:42 <elliott> also the post was contentless
21:42:00 <oerjan> elliott: what is c+= then?
21:42:03 <boily> a message from a lolorc from loldor...
21:42:23 <oerjan> it's sort of hard to google
21:46:36 <boily> moved over to the basement and the hearth → https://www.dropbox.com/s/grejkhn9px0mxj6/2013-12-30%2016.44.31.jpg
21:48:23 <boily> (fire is good. I like fire.)
21:49:41 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
21:51:54 <boily> I know. there were also other things going on in my description before it got munged, mashed, reworked, and completely upheaved.
21:52:45 <oerjan> `run echo "Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken." >wisdom/'things boily likes'
21:54:15 <oerjan> `run echo "Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở." >wisdom/'things boily likes'
21:54:38 <boily> just as I updated the PDF.
21:54:45 <boily> oerjan, you are merciless.
21:55:08 <fizzie> I'm still a bit surprised it isn't automatic. (With a DSL of exceptions for exceptional entries.)
21:55:35 <HackEgo> Binary file wisdom/irrelevant info matches \ wisdom/phở:phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam. \ wisdom/things boily likes:Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở.
21:56:12 <boily> fizzie: it's... well. uhm. I... you see...
21:56:15 <oerjan> boily: well at least i didn't make you bring up an entirely new language font this time.
21:56:20 <HackEgo> KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
21:56:55 <boily> oerjan: I'd have to say the vietnamese was the hardest “feature” I had to mix in the PDF.
21:57:15 <boily> fizzie: I shamelessly skipped that one. if you want, you can add it and commit the changes.
21:57:30 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
21:57:43 <fizzie> I don't know, it sounds a bit ambiguous as for rendering, what with all those control characters.
21:58:03 <mauke> http://examplea.acom/
21:58:08 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
21:59:00 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/p/P/' wisdom/phở
21:59:13 <HackEgo> Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
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22:26:37 <fizzie> Thought of the day: would be nice to know some statistics on how much sieni.us has been watched while being some kind of intoxicated, and how much not. (Was trying to find out why a melody was familiar.)
22:27:10 <Taneb> I am thinking of switching operating systems
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22:28:39 <Taneb> fizzie, what OS should I use
22:28:48 <Taneb> IMPORTANT QUESTION WITH NEXT TO NO CONTEXT
22:31:00 <fizzie> TempleOS is some sort of newfangled nonsense, LoseThos or bust.
22:31:37 <fizzie> As for a (serious|boring) answer, I would think it sort of depends on what you're "gunna" be doing with it.
22:32:06 <Taneb> Mostly browsing the web and trying to program, occasional gaming
22:32:59 <fizzie> MacOS and NetWare 5 that boot simultaneously.
22:33:27 <Taneb> Thinking of throwing myself at NixOS
22:34:18 <fizzie> I've just used a dual-boot Debian + Windows for pretty much those things, but that's really the boringest. (Functional, though.)
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22:37:18 <boily> Taneb: don't listen to this rag-tag bunch of non-believers. use the REALEST MOST BESTEST OS OF THEM ALL!
22:37:44 <boily> Taneb: embrace linux. become one with it. abandon your soul to the bien-être of the Penguin!
22:38:05 <mauke> slackware or gentoo?
22:38:18 * boily continues to mapole mauke
22:38:38 <Taneb> I... had problems with Arch that will not occur this time but now I am scared of Arch
22:39:43 <Taneb> I never said it wasn't! Only that it scared me.
22:39:58 <boily> there's even a wiki page for that! https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_is_the_best
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23:07:51 <FireFly> 'embrace linux'? I think boily wants you to attempt LFS, Taneb
23:09:20 <olsner> I think he just meant to give linux a hug, it needs it
23:22:41 <myname> i like "arch iz da shizzle ma nizzle"
23:26:55 <myname> "haskell - the language where IO is easy and unproblematic"
23:27:35 <Bike> i personally use a perl ffi for output in all my haskell programs
23:30:38 <Taneb> This typewriter was the best 5 pounds I have ever spend
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00:01:21 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> I... had problems with Arch that will not occur this time but now I am scared of Arch
00:07:10 <LinearInterpol> arch is scary as shit but it's not as scary as slackware.
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00:32:50 <Bike> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU1NTc cool
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00:47:31 <Taneb> myname, I had some problems installing it on my laptop due to problems with a) the university internet, and b) my laptop
00:47:41 <Taneb> Also, it gave me NOTHING
00:48:01 <Bike> well, i saw Arch in the gym once, trying to bench press like three hundred pounds. they almost managed it, but couldn't, and got so frustrated, they kicked the bed and it fell over
00:48:59 <Bike> Right? I mean you have to worry about that.
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02:37:43 <augur> elliott: https://proofmarket.org/
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04:15:25 <Sgeo> Didn't robotstxt.org used to not have ads/
04:16:40 <Sgeo> o.O 2007 it switched. I feel old.
04:17:57 <Bike> in 2007 i was six years old
04:19:14 <kmc> that... doesn't quite add up
04:20:26 <Bike> if i was twelve i couldn't have gotten so blazed with sgeo back in indiana
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04:23:29 <Bike> cool party once we figured out how to circumvent the import restrictions. can you believe they won't let you bring kegs of potassium iodide?
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04:46:42 <kmc> today in SF i saw a billboard reading "Facebook is #1, huh? I dare you to check out www.PrimeHangout.com Let the competition begin"
04:48:19 <kmc> https://twitter.com/search?q=smell%20colon
04:48:55 <shachaf> kmc: i double dog dare you to check it out
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05:25:20 * Sgeo is unsure if Oz's approach to IO is morally distinct from lazy I/O
05:25:25 <Sgeo> At least Oz doesn't claim to be pure
05:25:43 <Sgeo> But I can see finalization being a problem... I think
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05:54:00 <Sgeo> A nice screenshot of Mozart/Oz in action: http://mozart.github.io/mozart-v1/doc-1.4.0/mozart-stdlib/wp/qtk/html/picture100.gif
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06:04:21 -!- kmc has set topic: SURLYSPAWN is part of the ANGRYNEIGHBOR family of radar retro-reflectors. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
06:18:10 <kmc> http://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nsa-ant-ragemaster.jpg
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06:20:50 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/qwZih9U.jpg Khadafy
06:21:31 <kmc> yep looks just like him
06:26:43 <Bike> Sgeo: is this like... intentional
06:26:57 <Sgeo> Bike: I assume not
06:37:09 <Sgeo> I THINK I UNDERSTAND DUAL NUMBERS NOW
06:37:28 <Sgeo> http://mathwithbaddrawings.com/2013/08/07/0-999-and-the-debate-that-repeats-forever/
06:37:45 <Sgeo> Is the ε that that page describes the thing in dual numbers?
06:37:49 <Bike> the fuck is a dual number
06:37:59 <Bike> do you mean nonstandard numbers
06:39:06 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIwUAqavC7I
06:39:11 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_number
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06:40:23 <Bike> you can have a real times that eps, so, no
06:40:57 <shachaf> 0.999... is actually equal to 2
06:42:15 <shachaf> anyway it seems the person who wrote that article is mostly right but doesn't really properly know why they're right
06:43:54 <Sgeo> Bike: oh, make sense (bad way to phrase that though)
06:44:08 <Bike> you're a bad way to phrase
06:44:35 <shachaf> Bike: Sgeo was telling you to make sense
06:44:50 <fungot> shachaf: why do think the media is happily trying to waste taxpayer money
06:45:02 <fungot> shachaf: its not for everyone of course. hegel thought it was more like
06:45:32 <Bike> hegel?? fungot don't do this to me
06:45:32 <fungot> Bike: it's crashed like 6 times today. it also affects ability to understand quantified nouns
06:45:44 <shachaf> fungot: hegel was, like, the man. tell me more
06:45:44 <fungot> shachaf: i think i'll do some work. fnord because it looks stupid
06:45:53 <Bike> yes, i get that from hegel as well, fungot, why don't you talk about spinoza or something instead
06:45:53 <fungot> Bike: because it is evolutionarily superior to most computers. is that right? but now, by the way
06:46:14 <Bike> no, fungot, it is not right. spinoza's computer was only evolutionary superior to some mechanical bookshelves.
06:46:14 <fungot> Bike: i just mean, of course). cool! :d)
06:46:37 <shachaf> fungot: wow don't listen to Bike he's just a bicycle
06:46:37 <fungot> shachaf: the place you applying isn't worth applying for i'd say it was a single large heap for all processes."
06:46:48 <shachaf> fungot: can i have more ""fungot wisdom""
06:46:48 <fungot> shachaf: some athena machines use various snapshots named fnord some others use 7.7.1 ( from fnord):
06:47:14 <Bike> Sgeo: i mean, with a smallest possible nubmer your'e basically giving up on rationals. and who doesn't like rationals?
06:47:59 <shachaf> who says you need a smallest possible number
06:48:11 <Bike> this adrian kid.
06:48:45 * Sgeo hides the 0 from Bike
06:49:01 <Bike> smallest nonnegative number
06:49:11 * Sgeo keeps hiding the 0 from Bike
06:49:48 <shachaf> wow i'm not getting involved in a 0.9 argument
06:50:14 <Sgeo> shachaf: don't you dare try to tell me that 0.999 repeating is equal to 0.9
06:50:21 <coppro> the smallest nonnegative number is 0
06:50:34 <shachaf> 0.999... doesn't exist because it's an infinite sum
06:50:47 <shachaf> and i'm a super duper constructivist, i only believe in things you can do in finite time
06:51:15 <Sgeo> 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + ... = 0 * inf = ?
06:51:31 <Bike> i can convince people that .999... exists in finite time. your move
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06:51:49 <Bike> also fuck the nonnegative thing you know what i mean argh.
06:51:49 <shachaf> btw i'm the only people in the world
06:52:01 <Bike> how do youe xplain the eistence of jeorge bush
06:52:05 <shachaf> Bike: "strictly nonnegative" hth
06:52:30 <Bike> bush is pretty negative in my book
06:52:54 <mauke> 0.999... is syntactic sugar for lim_{n->inf} sum_{i=1}^{n} 9 * 10^-i
06:53:23 <Sgeo> You and your real math. Go have an i
06:53:31 <shachaf> i don't believe in lim, sry
06:53:44 <shachaf> wait, or do i believe in lim but just don't believe that that limit is the same as 1
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06:54:42 <shachaf> http://math.andrej.com/2008/08/13/intuitionistic-mathematics-for-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-21652
06:55:41 <Bike> golly, but you get such weird functions from diffs
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06:57:35 <Bike> i know a guy whose thesis is just on integrating products of besselffunctions. how wack is that
06:58:54 <mauke> they're like regular functions but louder
06:59:46 <Bike> cos it helps understand optics in turbulent media, duh
07:00:00 <Bike> turbulence is fucked up imo
07:00:36 <Sgeo> shachaf: I know the (d/dx)(e^x)=e^x makes sense, but I don't know how to make heads or tales of that comment, whether it's sensible or idiotic
07:00:52 <Sgeo> The one you linked to
07:01:05 <Sgeo> "Anonymous: You’re right about the derivative of xn and wrong about the derivative of ex. "
07:01:15 <kmc> `unidecode ꟼ
07:01:21 <HackEgo> [U+A7FC LATIN EPIGRAPHIC LETTER REVERSED P]
07:03:20 <shachaf> it makes me sad that people have decided that http://adit.io/posts/2013-04-17-functors,_applicatives,_and_monads_in_pictures.html is a good introduction and link to it a lot
07:03:31 <Sgeo> I'm sad that the IRTC is dead
07:03:38 <Sgeo> But... RUSTY VIDEO I HAVEN"T SEEN BEFORE
07:03:40 <shachaf> i know the author, too. but that introduction makes me sad
07:04:39 <kmc> why is it bad
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07:06:22 <shachaf> approximately the usual reasons
07:06:23 <Sgeo> http://ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/graphics/irtc/anims/2007-01-15/rusty032.mpg
07:07:13 <shachaf> bad analogies, subtle mistakes, missing or not explaining the point of an abstraction such that it seems pointless
07:11:14 <Sgeo> ftp://ftp.irtc.org/pub/COPYRIGHT
07:11:21 <Sgeo> So much for putting IRTC videos on YouTube
07:11:34 <Sgeo> 5. Entrant grants the right of private recreational or non-commercial
07:11:34 <Sgeo> use to the general public, EXCEPTING THE RESTRICTIONS (5.1) AND (5.2) below.
07:11:34 <Sgeo> 5.1. Distribution is not allowed on any storage media that are
07:11:34 <Sgeo> accessible over the Internet or similar Wide Area Networks. This prohibits
07:11:34 <Sgeo> the use of these files on FTP, WWW or gopher sites, among others.
07:12:16 <Sgeo> Well, technically YouTube would only be publically serving a derived work of the original files... which I guess counts?
07:18:58 <Sgeo> http://ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/graphics/irtc/anims/
07:19:02 <Sgeo> Such... low-quality
07:19:06 <Sgeo> Someone should rerender some of them
07:25:56 <Bike> man, squarepusher is fun.
07:27:39 <Sgeo> http://ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/graphics/irtc/stills/accepted/twstcube.jpg
07:28:00 <Bike> that is not squarepusher
07:28:07 <Bike> do you know squarepusher (geddit)
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07:28:44 <kmc> `unidecode ï̈
07:28:45 <HackEgo> [U+00EF LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH DIAERESIS] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS]
07:28:55 <Sgeo> http://ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/graphics/irtc/stills/accepted/dragon.jpg
07:29:03 <Sgeo> I have no idea how that's a dragon
07:29:20 <Bike> think spine. think inside of liver.
07:29:22 <kmc> it's fuckin pretty though
07:30:35 <Sgeo> "The adventurer was weary; for more time than he cared to think he had been digging through the hinterlands of calculus, trying to resurrect long-lost skills. Suddenly, while leaning inward to examine a convoluted function, he finds himself staring into the eyes of a dragon. It's that diabolical worm, Complexity!"
07:30:40 <Sgeo> http://ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/graphics/irtc/stills/accepted/dragon.txt
07:31:07 <Sgeo> "(POV-Ray seems like an excellent tool for visualization in an engineering context!)"
07:31:25 <Sgeo> Ray-tracing might be overkill for engineering? Certainly a modeling language like that might be nice I guess
07:33:33 <Sgeo> http://ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/graphics/irtc/stills/accepted/1004cplx.jpg
07:39:54 <Sgeo> I should look to see what other renderers besides LuxRender have galleries
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07:48:23 <shachaf> http://iml.univ-mrs.fr/~girard/0.pdf
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08:03:01 <Sgeo> If Cont is the mother of all monads, is there a name for the monads that ListT State s (or is it StateT [s]?) is the mother of?
08:04:31 <shachaf> "mother" is not a precise relationship between monads.
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08:45:25 <ion> Britain. http://metro.co.uk/2013/12/14/artificial-leg-prompts-paedophile-panic-at-swimming-pool-and-evacuation-of-children-4230694/
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10:53:45 <coppro> darn it, I wanted to ask ais something before he went to bed
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10:57:40 <coppro> AnotherTest: do you pass the turing test?
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10:58:42 * oerjan senses from the logs that Bike may not live in quite the same reality as the rest of us. and that his reality has an alternate Sgeo.
10:59:54 <oerjan> idea: a bot that passes the turing test by complaining loudly about the insult of putting it to the test.
11:05:17 <coppro> so basically a rob ford bot
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12:08:01 <mroman> There are no numbers above 7?
12:08:49 <int-e> that's stronger than "all odd numbers (other than 1) are prime"
12:09:46 <int-e> (Well, the two statements are logically equivalent. At least it's not weaker.)
12:13:20 <HackEgo> factor: invalid option -- '3' \ Try `factor --help' for more information.
12:15:03 <HackEgo> factor: unrecognized option '-- -3' \ Try `factor --help' for more information.
12:15:18 <int-e> factor: ‘-3’ is not a valid positive integer
12:15:19 <HackEgo> factor: `-3' is not a valid positive integer
12:15:36 <HackEgo> factor (GNU coreutils) 8.5 \ Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Paul Rubin.
12:15:48 <oerjan> discriminating against the negatives again
12:16:48 <mroman> How dou you count strongness?
12:17:17 <mroman> There are no numbers > There are no numbers above 7?
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12:18:40 <oerjan> theoretically, there can only be one conjecture stronger than that. since otherwise there would be more than 7.
12:19:06 <int-e> mroman: I would say that a statement A is stronger than B if A "obviously" implies B. Logically, "obviously" cannot be defined, so in the end the implication is all that's left.
12:24:05 <int-e> Ah, we could explain the implication more explicitely using models. A is stronger than B (in a theory T) if every model of A (and T) is also a model of B.
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12:24:24 <mroman> I don't know about models
12:24:32 <mroman> but it sounds like if B is a subset of A
12:25:36 <mroman> which sounds the same as your implication explanation
12:25:46 <int-e> A model specifies how operations used in formulas work. A model of the natural numbers would be a set of numbers together with successor, addition and multiplication.
12:26:11 <mroman> and what distinguishes them from a group
12:26:55 <int-e> The notion of models is more general. A group is a model of the group axioms. A field is a model of the field axioms.
12:26:59 <mroman> the model actually defines what a successor is?
12:29:39 <int-e> `factor 170141183460469231731687303715884105727
12:29:40 <HackEgo> factor: `170141183460469231731687303715884105727' is too large
12:30:04 <int-e> `factor 9223372036854775808
12:30:05 <HackEgo> 9223372036854775808: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
12:30:10 <oerjan> HackEgo: USE THE QUANTUM
12:30:49 <lambdabot> 1427247692705959881058285969449495136382746624
12:30:58 <oerjan> `factor 1427247692705959881058285969449495136382746624
12:31:00 <HackEgo> factor: `1427247692705959881058285969449495136382746624' is too large
12:31:09 <oerjan> HackEgo: YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING
12:31:17 <int-e> `factor 18446744073709551615
12:31:19 <HackEgo> 18446744073709551615: 3 5 17 257 641 65537 6700417
12:31:21 <int-e> `factor 18446744073709551616
12:31:22 <HackEgo> factor: `18446744073709551616' is too large
12:32:01 <int-e> `eval factorize 18446744073709551617
12:32:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eval: not found
12:32:19 <fizzie> W|A can factor 1427247692705959881058285969449495136382746624 just fine.
12:33:07 <fizzie> But does it have a "step-by-step solution" button?
12:33:15 <fizzie> (Though I'd need to sign in for that to actually do anything.)
12:33:22 <oerjan> > mod 18446744073709551617 7
12:33:48 <int-e> I mean, that particular case is probably fine ... just 150 trial divisions.
12:34:04 <oerjan> > mod 18446744073709551617 <$> [7,11,13,19,23]
12:34:42 <fizzie> It doesn't give a step-by-step solution button for the prime 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 -- at least in the same box.
12:34:47 <int-e> > 1427247692705959881058285969449495136382746625 == 5^3*13*41*61*101*1201*1321*8101*63901*268401*13334701*1182468601
12:34:58 <fizzie> (There's a step-by-step solution button in the "divisors" box, though.)
12:35:35 <fizzie> For the prime factorization of 1427247692705959881058285969449495136382746625 there is the button. I'm tempted, but not tempted enough to make an account.
12:35:55 <oerjan> > mod 18446744073709551617 <$> [29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59]
12:36:24 <int-e> > 1427247692705959881058285969449495136382746625 == product [5,5,5,13,41,61,101,1201,1321,8101,63901,268501,13334701,1182468601]
12:36:41 <int-e> fizzie: so what does a step-by-step solution for that look like?
12:37:24 <int-e> `factor 18446744073709551617
12:37:25 <HackEgo> factor: `18446744073709551617' is too large
12:37:30 <oerjan> oh w|a says the smallest factor is 274177
12:37:30 <fizzie> > mod 18446744073709551617 <$> [274177, 67280421310721] -- oerjan: let's just cut to the chase, eh?
12:37:36 <int-e> pari says ... 274177*67280421310721. right.
12:37:47 <fizzie> int-e: I don't know; that's why I was tempted.
12:38:22 * int-e should do some shopping before the shops close, bbl.
12:38:52 <int-e> `factor 1182468601
12:39:09 <int-e> in fact, how does a step by step solution for this (a primality test) look like? :-)
12:39:24 <oerjan> no wonder fermat was confused about these numbers.
12:39:32 <fizzie> It doesn't give a step-by-step solution button for (large) primes.
12:39:54 <fizzie> Or for that 18446744073709551617 either.
12:40:05 <int-e> (One would have to look at primality certificates. Maybe some of those are verifiable by humans.)
12:41:52 <oerjan> oh right fermat numbers must have factors of a particular form
12:42:15 <HackEgo> 274176: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 7 17
12:45:14 <oerjan> <Bike> yes, i get that from hegel as well, fungot, why don't you talk about spinoza or something instead <-- yeah everyone else is just a spin-off
12:45:15 <fungot> oerjan: this bug seems to have been removed from cvs already. ( i don't know
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13:43:15 <FireFly> It's a good thing that fungot is self-sentinent so that it knows about bugs in its source-code that have been fixed
13:43:15 <fungot> FireFly: unix using ascii. do you get?
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13:50:23 <oerjan> i guess no one's linked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVXmWnfARC4 here before
13:50:36 <oerjan> (youtube suggested it to me >_>)
14:00:20 <Taneb> I have just thought of something ridiculous
14:01:01 <Taneb> But very interesting
14:01:06 <Taneb> And probably already done
14:02:40 <oerjan> @pinky Are you thinking what Taneb is thinking?
14:02:40 <lambdabot> Uh, I think so Brain, but this time, you wear the tutu.
14:04:26 -!- boily has joined.
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14:06:00 <metasepia> ENVA 311350Z 28004KT 9999 VCSH FEW034 OVC048 06/01 Q0997 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 26011KT
14:10:58 <boily> also, good cryogenic morning!
14:11:03 <metasepia> CYQB 311400Z 27002KT 30SM BKN085 BKN110 M22/M28 A3015 RMK AC5AC2 SLP218
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14:52:48 <boily> hellinelloarintellorpellol.
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15:07:27 <metasepia> ESSA 311450Z 19013KT 9999 FEW020 SCT040 04/01 Q1012 R01L/29//95 R08/29//95 R01R/29//95 NOSIG
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15:20:24 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: wait is that an actual timezone
15:22:05 <boily> @localtime lifthrasiir
15:22:07 <lambdabot> Local time for lifthrasiir is Wed Jan 1 00:22:06 2014
15:24:22 <boily> (that reminds me I need to set-up korean in my terminal. the default font choice is... creative. not quite zalgo-esque, but it has some eldritch tendencies.)
15:26:12 <oerjan> maybe it's north korean, that would do it right
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16:10:10 <boily> joyeuse vieille année, quintopia!
16:10:58 <quintopia> what are you going to do with all this time?
16:12:26 <boily> today? work, then a few jousts of towerfall, then yearend TV specials. probably going to involve a few cups of wine here and there.
16:12:30 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
16:12:33 <boily> (and an ounce or two of scotch :D)
16:13:17 <olsner> oh, is canada already in the future?
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16:14:31 <olsner> hmm, are you ahead or behind in time? should be behind, if japan is ahead
16:14:32 <boily> olsner: you're more futury than me. it's still a quarter past 11am here.
16:15:17 <olsner> quarter past five here
16:15:50 <boily> impomatic: you'll have to ask lifthrasiir. he's the most Futurian of us all. I think.
16:16:11 * impomatic plans to complete OMEGA by Origin in 2014 :-)
16:16:24 <HackEgo> olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
16:16:33 <olsner> fwiw, 2014 has the same number of factors as 2013, and their average is the same
16:17:04 <olsner> lifthrasiir: what color is wednesday?
16:17:08 <boily> impomatic: apparently, 2014 is made of factors and wednesdays.
16:18:41 <nooodl> "I have a file named a┤rv.txt on Windows, I'd like to know if this file exists."
16:18:46 <nooodl> these stackoverflow questions are getting philosophical
16:19:00 <olsner> I'm not quite sure what color kind error is, but it could be a great color to start a year
16:19:15 -!- monotone_ has joined.
16:20:09 <boily> the new Kind Error Collection from Holt Renfrew.
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16:22:57 <oerjan> `run factor 2013; factor 2014
16:22:59 <HackEgo> 2013: 3 11 61 \ 2014: 2 19 53
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16:23:39 <olsner> oops, actually, 2013 has 0.3 higher average factor
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16:23:56 <olsner> or 1/3, to be more exact
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16:24:58 <boily> ~eval let avg xs = fromIntegral (sum xs) / fromIntegral (length xs) in (avg . primeFactors $ 2013) - (avg . primeFactors $ 2014)
16:26:04 <olsner> ~eval let avg xs = fromIntegral (sum xs) % fromIntegral (length xs) in (avg . primeFactors $ 2013) - (avg . primeFactors $ 2014)
16:26:44 <oerjan> > findIndex id $ zipWith(==)`ap`tail $ avg . primeFactors <$> [1..]
16:26:45 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `avg'Not in scope: `primeFactors'
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16:27:27 <oerjan> ~eval let avg xs = fromIntegral (sum xs) / fromIntegral (length xs) in findIndex id $ zipWith(==)`ap`tail $ avg . primeFactors <$> [1..]
16:27:41 <HackEgo> factor: `2013.5' is not a valid positive integer
16:28:19 <oerjan> `run factor 733; factor 734; factor 735
16:28:21 <HackEgo> 733: 733 \ 734: 2 367 \ 735: 3 5 7 7
16:28:26 <olsner> .5 and 4027 or 5 and 402.7 then
16:29:40 <oerjan> ~eval let avg xs = fromIntegral (sum xs) / fromIntegral (length xs) in avg . primeFactors <$> [732..]
16:29:41 <metasepia> [17.0,733.0,184.5,5.5,5.5,39.0,12.25,739.0,11.5,11.666666666666666,20.666666666666668,743.0,8.0,77.0,187.5,29.666666666666668,8.0,57.0,4.0,751.0,11.0,127.0,14.666666666666666,78.0,3.3333333333333335,757.0,190.5,12.333333333333334,6.0,761.0,44.0,58.0,65.0,7.0,192.5,36.0,2.111111111111111,769.0,6.25,130.0,65.66666666666667,773.0,12.75,13.666666666666666,25.75,15.666666666666666,195.5,30.0,5.0,41.0,14.0,9.5,3.6666666666666665,81.0,45.333333333333336,787.
16:30:11 <oerjan> oh the off by one is in the other direction
16:31:02 <olsner> [1..] !! 734 is 735, and the tail has the next entry on the same index
16:31:59 <oerjan> `run echo "An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction" >wisdom/'off by two error'
16:32:54 <lifthrasiir> or off by one point five error. (like OpenGL pixel-perfect rendering, for example)
16:33:10 <olsner> `run mv wisdom/off\ by\ two\ error wisdom/off\ by\ two
16:33:45 <quintopia> boily: bfjoust is better than towerfall
16:33:54 <olsner> what's a radar retro-reflector?
16:34:39 <fizzie> I assume something that reflects typical radar signals well towards their source.
16:34:53 <olsner> isn't that just a reflector?
16:34:53 <fizzie> Based on what the retro-reflectors they've put on the moon are like.
16:34:54 <quintopia> something that bounces a radar signal directly back at the transmitter
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16:35:08 <quintopia> no matter what angle the incoming signal is coming from
16:35:15 <olsner> ah, towards the source
16:36:41 * oerjan wonders if those are good defenses against laser weapons
16:36:49 <FireFly> lifthrasiir: oh, that's where it comes from? I guess that's why <canvas> does that too
16:37:18 <oerjan> well visible light ones
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16:38:35 <oerjan> hm i suppose they would have the disadvantage of being extremely easy to search for
16:39:20 <boily> quintopia: I can punch my bro when playing Towerfall.
16:39:32 <lifthrasiir> FireFly, google for "diamond exit rule", I think. (and AFAIK it does not affect the rendering of triangle primitives)
16:39:37 <oerjan> which would be an argumet against putting them on armor
16:40:06 <olsner> maybe you could enable and disable the retroreflectiveness, and only enable them when being hit by a bright enough laser beam
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16:40:37 <fizzie> oerjan: Sounds like it might be a tradeoff between the reflection coefficient you can achieve (presumably higher for a simple reflective surface) and the possibly desirable feature of doing something to the source.
16:40:38 <oerjan> well that would require an active device
16:40:53 <fizzie> oerjan: You could just coat a reflective surface with something that burns away easily when hit by a laser.
16:40:56 <fizzie> oerjan: That's pretty passive.
16:41:14 <fizzie> (But still black until shot at.)
16:42:13 <boily> fizzie: you are not a weapon of destruction?
16:42:37 <boily> I'm with LinearInterpol here.
16:42:38 <fizzie> I have to admit I'm not a wizard dog either.
16:42:50 <fizzie> (Incidentally, "energy weapon" sounds pretty silly, since it's so vague.)
16:44:00 <boily> google translate is of no help here. we could have had “Fizzie, King of Airborne Wizard Dogs” in Finnish.
16:44:20 <oerjan> something something koira hth
16:45:15 <oerjan> except probably some other case
16:46:26 <FireFly> Apparently Google Translate translates en:wizard to sv:guide, presumably because of setup wizard thingys
16:46:57 <oerjan> boily: Fizzie, kuningas ilmassa ohjatun koiria hth
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16:47:11 <oerjan> (_not_ capitalizing everything helped.)
16:48:02 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
16:48:20 <boily> how do you pronounce “hth” in Finnish?
16:49:00 <boily> oerjan: the PDF is updated ♪
16:49:46 -!- conehead has joined.
16:50:27 <oerjan> boily: wait with what. oh right.
16:51:50 <boily> LinearInterpol: apparently, it's easier in Finnish: en:hth → fi:tea.
16:51:52 -!- hogeyui__ has joined.
16:52:49 <boily> and then, you have fr:eça.
16:52:50 <fizzie> "Lentävien velhokoirien kuningas" (lit. "[flying] [of wizard dogs] [king]") would be more natural Finnish, if you want the fantasy kind of wizard.
16:53:41 <oerjan> and norwegian ruins all with hdh, hth
16:54:01 <boily> no:“hope dhat helps”?
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16:57:49 <FireFly> oerjan: http://www.cederroth.com/temp/2130047399.png hth
16:58:27 * boily is rainbowly frightened
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17:01:35 <olsner> hth is hdh in swedish too hth
17:02:20 <oerjan> I KNEW IT *MWAHAHAHAHA*
17:02:25 <olsner> and hth in english is hdh (helps dry hands)
17:02:43 <boily> aide à sécher les mains.
17:03:01 <oerjan> boily: i think that's backwards
17:03:06 <olsner> boily: that's not english
17:03:09 <oerjan> this is dry the adjective
17:03:51 <oerjan> aide à les mains séches maybe?
17:04:05 <boily> aide les mains sèches.
17:04:14 <boily> (aider is transitive.)
17:05:13 <boily> I'll have to remember that one. «ô kaille». he he he :D
17:05:32 <olsner> fizzie: are you flying or are the wizard dogs flying?
17:06:16 <fizzie> TTOA ("toivottavasti tästä oli apua") might be a Finnish hth hth
17:08:02 <oerjan> "Swanbeck upptäckte i mitten av 1960-talet att torr hud har brist på fuktgivande ämnen." shocking
17:08:36 <olsner> indeed, amazing discovery
17:10:23 <boily> like we say here, «plus qu'il neige, plus qu'il y a de la neige.»
17:10:44 <fizzie> In other news: taking a shower gets you wet because of an abundance of water?
17:11:49 <oerjan> clearly publishable paper there
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17:12:55 <olsner> fizzie: actually it's the wetness of the water that does it
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17:14:08 <oerjan> gt seems to have this strange idea il y a should have an accent
17:15:33 <oerjan> gt = google translate. ilya is some russian.
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17:16:02 <boily> oerjan: gt is wrong. WRONG!
17:16:24 <olsner> gt can also mean: gin and tonic
17:16:26 <oerjan> boily: other google sources made me suspect as much.
17:16:50 <oerjan> around trondheim, mostly ilya dubkov.
17:19:57 <boily> «il y a», literally “he have at this place”
17:21:30 * oerjan actually knows what il y a means, being among the few things not forgotten from his school french
17:22:28 <olsner> is y = here? that part of school french failed to stick, apparently
17:22:41 <olsner> il and a I can recognize as he and have
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17:24:05 <kmc> `localtime lifthrasiir
17:24:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: localtime: not found
17:24:11 <kmc> @localtime lifthrasiir
17:24:13 <lambdabot> Local time for lifthrasiir is Wed Jan 1 02:24:12 2014
17:26:10 <boily> oerjan: «y» is the accusative of «ici».
17:27:19 <boily> it has also a bunch of derivative meanings all related to “here”, “now”, “oneself”.
17:27:29 <olsner> not quite sure why that word would have cases though
17:27:54 <boily> along with pronouns, those are the last vestigial remnants of cases in French.
17:29:26 <olsner> e.g. german where cases are much alive, doesn't have cases for 'hier' afaik
17:35:09 <boily> @tell Koen_ it's been a long time since I disturbed you with Québécois.
17:39:41 <kmc> what color should i paint my fingernails for the new year?
17:40:23 <boily> douglass_: what colour should kmc be?
17:40:45 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:40:54 <boily> kmc: I say, Cantor Dust.
17:40:54 <oerjan> douglass_ seems blissfully idle
17:41:14 <kmc> fungot: what colour should i paint my fingernails for the new year?
17:41:15 <fungot> kmc: it certainly shouldn't take that long. :p the cost is only 2.5e (!) directfb/ core/ pul/ collection.plof this has a cutoff constant in it somewhere. it a house consisting from 6 houses
17:41:29 <kmc> i'm gonna keep asking fungot until i get an answer
17:41:29 <fungot> kmc: probably the only one he used. right? right? ( fnord!
17:41:50 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:42:06 <boily> kmc: fungot probably is going to recommend some Deep Iridescent Fnord.
17:42:06 <fungot> boily: 90% of my market would be windows and i develop software for all of them
17:42:31 <olsner> kmc: you should paint them kind error
17:43:01 <olsner> fungot: or do you have a better idea?+
17:43:01 <fungot> olsner: why do you care? nobody will make you fnord if you want, implementing conses ( including set-car!/set-cdr!) in your saliva, then the doc said " oh, i see
17:43:56 <kmc> fungot: I'm finding out that you can't mess around with saliva!
17:43:56 <fungot> kmc: you actually wrote these, and i refuse to take anything on faith, riastradh. from now on.
17:43:59 <boily> fungot: no. I don't want to make fnord in my saliva, and yes I care.
17:43:59 <fungot> boily: it's always nice to eat or something
17:44:30 <boily> fungot: I'm hungry.
17:44:30 <fungot> boily: what is ihope? this x thing, so you can't go any further with clisms.
17:48:35 <douglass_> The structural color of the fruit of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollia_condensata
17:49:44 <boily> I refuse to believe a fruit made of tinfoil and electric blue sparkly plastic resin exists in nature.
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17:50:26 <olsner> where did you think tinfoil came from?
17:50:52 <douglass_> it's true, everyone knows tinfoil doesn't come from tin
17:51:03 <boily> olsner: from tinfoil mines in the Great North.
17:51:26 <olsner> tin- is just thin without the h
17:53:28 <oerjan> boily: it's just one of the many proofs that we are living in a simulation hth
17:54:10 * boily dons his maple-tinfoil hat
17:55:34 <oerjan> douglass_: _real_ tinfoil comes from tin. it's also the only kind that protects against mind control rays, which explains why you cannot get it any more. hth..hth
17:55:47 * oerjan misunderstands the script
17:56:40 <oerjan> perhaps it will work better if i include some spaces, twh.
17:57:19 <boily> olsner: Oerjan's Shackles.
17:57:25 <oerjan> the script that prevents me from saying
17:59:27 <boily> the Kleen Star of All Help Combinations
18:00:34 <boily> `run echo 'test' | sed -e 'st\ttTt'
18:03:27 <kmc> douglass_: wow those are pretty
18:11:47 <oerjan> happy australian mailman list reminder day!
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18:29:41 <FireFly> fungot: have you made any new year resolutions?
18:29:41 <fungot> FireFly: never mind. found it. i quite like that, heh?
18:30:39 <olsner> well, you're not gonna keep it anyway, are you?
18:30:45 <FireFly> apparently fungot found their resolution
18:30:45 <fungot> FireFly: syntax-case enables the impossible. merely that it is
18:31:06 <boily> as the old joke go, my new year resolution is going to be 1920 × 1080.
18:31:26 <olsner> mine might be 3800x1800, now that there are laptops with that resolution
18:31:30 <boily> (other than that, get back to learning Japanese. but I won't say it's a resolution, as that would needlessly jinx it.)
18:31:34 <olsner> possibly ultra-hd, or just full-hd
18:32:59 <boily> huh. I can go as low as 640 × 480 on this machine.
18:33:15 <olsner> actually full-hd would be an upgrade for this laptop ... the current resolution is almost ridiculously low
18:33:35 <olsner> the 5" phone has higher resolution than the 12.5" laptop :(
18:39:09 <lifthrasiir> well, great, it's time to get rid of home-grown hgweb server due to frequent server overload.
18:39:40 <boily> monotone: どのデバイスは解像度が変更できませんか？
18:43:28 <boily> monotone: しょうがないなぁ…
18:45:25 <kmc> as the old saying goes, one time a train hit a zebra so hard that a person came out
18:45:30 <boily> monotone: それでも、お元気ですか？あなたに生きている場所に寒いですか？
18:45:56 <boily> kmc: humans are a crossbreed between zebras and trains?
18:46:16 <kmc> believe so
18:46:35 <int-e> regarding resolutions: when will we see the first 1080p smart watch?
18:46:38 <boily> that'd explain a lot of things...
18:46:58 <int-e> (I honestly don't see the point of display resolutions above 150dpi or so)
18:47:26 <metasepia> LOWI 311820Z 25003KT CAVOK M04/M07 Q1019 R08/19//70 NOSIG
18:50:36 <metasepia> EDDP 311820Z 15008KT CAVOK 01/M00 Q1017 NOSIG
18:50:38 <metasepia> KORF 311751Z 26007G14KT 230V290 10SM CLR 09/M02 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP217 T00891017 10094 20033 58016
18:50:48 <boily> monotone: ここは極低温度だよ
18:50:57 <metasepia> CYUL 311800Z 04006KT 8SM -SN OVC033 M16/M19 A3006 RMK SC8 SLP181
18:51:29 <metasepia> CYQB 311800Z 24007KT 3SM -SN OVC028 M19/M24 A3008 RMK SN5SC3 SLP196
18:51:37 <boily> yé... minus nineteen...
18:52:03 <metasepia> HKJK 311700Z 04010KT 9999 BKN023 22/14 Q1019 NOSIG
18:52:19 <olsner> here it's like +3 or something, it's silly
18:52:37 <boily> olsner: my feet beg to differ.
18:53:25 <olsner> if they're still begging they haven't been cryogenerated yet
18:53:48 <boily> cryogeneration hasn't begun yet. I still have two of them.
18:54:30 <olsner> try going inside, it may be warmer
18:54:50 <boily> int-e: the regular SI toe configuration, I still have it.
18:54:59 <boily> olsner: I am inside. I'm stupidly barefoot.
18:55:06 <monotone> boily: 厚い靴下をはいた方がいいと思います (*‿*)
18:56:36 <int-e> I was going to suggest making use of that great invention called boots ... but now it's redundant.
18:57:53 <boily> monotone has the comfiest solution.
18:58:41 <int-e> does it involve socks? or a warm bath?
18:58:52 <int-e> hmm. "hot bath" sounds better.
19:03:43 <boily> monotone: 靴下をはいている 僕の足はいま暖かいです (^ε^)
19:05:16 <boily> monotone: as the local proverb goes, «よかった en maudit».
19:14:44 -!- FreeFull_ has joined.
19:15:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:20:59 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:21:23 -!- Jafet has joined.
19:23:54 <quintopia> boily: what languages do you know?????????
19:24:33 <Bike> they're just writing french in hanzi
19:24:40 -!- FreeFull has joined.
19:25:29 <boily> quintopia: spaceteam?
19:26:09 <quintopia> boily: you should play it. with your friends. asap.
19:26:24 <boily> quintopia: does it run on Linux and/or the Ouya?
19:26:37 <boily> quintopia: or, better, is it made of cardboard and acrylic?
19:26:41 -!- FreeFull_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:27:04 <boily> quintopia: I accept.
19:27:05 <quintopia> the iphone version is slightly more stable
19:27:11 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro.
19:27:19 <boily> pfshaw. stability is for wimps.
19:28:08 <boily> oh, spaceteam. I didn't know it was called so.
19:29:00 <Bike> kana is just wannabe hanzi.
19:29:17 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:29:38 <quintopia> boily: you have played or seen played?
19:31:26 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:32:06 * boily は楓棒でBikeに当たる ＊ボン＊！
19:44:09 -!- FreeFull has joined.
20:17:16 <boily> apparently, by default, OpenERP stores user passwords without any encryption whatsoever.
20:21:06 <oerjan> we don't need to worry about hyperintelligent ais. our computer systems are so broken it only takes a normal ai to take them over.
20:22:37 <kmc> hyperintelligent ais523?
20:22:45 <oerjan> wait now. maybe the government is keeping our computers broken _on purpose_ just so we'll have an early warning about hostile ais before they become hyperintelligent.
20:23:07 <oerjan> it all makes sense now!
20:23:31 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
20:25:54 <oerjan> meanwhile, march 3 is when the main girl genius story line will resume. coincidence? also checking this made me discover the fill-in story updated on a tuesday!
20:27:48 * boily gulps quintopia's 'shine
20:28:02 <boily> oerjan: girl genius is still ongoing?
20:28:05 <oerjan> SHINE SHINE LIKE A STAR
20:28:52 <boily> quintopia: shined.
20:29:05 <oerjan> boily: um you mean in general, or over the just started hiatus?
20:29:18 <boily> oerjan: the general allure of it all.
20:29:51 <oerjan> boily: most definitely. you don't just end a story that wins hugos in 3 consecutive years...
20:30:42 <oerjan> i don't expect it to end until we get an explanation for the time travel segments seen previously, and there isn't currently any sign of that happening yet...
20:32:07 <mroman> to everyone who lives >3+ GMT
20:32:10 <int-e> also the whole gil/father mixup needs to be resolved
20:32:23 <boily> oerjan: time travel??? I think I'll have to get back on track eventually...
20:32:38 <lambdabot> Local time for mroman is Tue Dec 31 21:32:37 2013
20:32:41 <oerjan> int-e: not to mention agatha/mother...
20:33:05 <oerjan> boily: those were a _long_ time ago, mind you.
20:33:09 <lambdabot> Local time for boily is Tue, 31 Dec 2013 15:33:08 -0500
20:33:27 <boily> oerjan: I dropped it a long time ago too.
20:33:32 <oerjan> back when they had the first events on board castle wulfenbach
20:34:34 <int-e> time travel? the time freeze was bad enough, hmm. maybe I have to reread the thing from the beginning.
20:35:56 <oerjan> int-e: incidentally, the time travel segment implies that certain characters who are currently in trouble should get out of it.
20:36:36 <int-e> yay. "You have been selected as a winner for using Google services."
20:37:06 <oerjan> int-e: by time travel, i mean the apparitions dupree told the baron about.
20:37:52 <oerjan> and iirc the baron correctly guessed that time travel was involved
20:38:13 <int-e> so ... re-reading it is.
20:39:01 -!- FreeFull_ has joined.
20:39:07 <boily> by the way, where is Taneb?
20:41:33 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:42:10 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull.
20:42:59 <oerjan> FreeFull: you are under attack hth
20:43:50 <boily> FreeFull: oooooooooooooooh :D
20:44:21 <FreeFull> I want to know who is doing this and why
20:45:40 <int-e> funny. one of those is proxyscan.freenode.net
20:45:55 <FreeFull> https://dpaste.de/p7bb/raw Part two, same IPs
20:46:15 <fizzie> Maybe you have got yourself a "misconfigured UPS guy" as well.
20:47:47 <fizzie> proxyscan.siglost.com, pridelands.org, v22010127734464199.yourvserver.net, gilman.megworld.co.uk, proxyscan.freenode.net and hitchcock.freenode.net, apparently.
20:48:04 <lifthrasiir> 15.2 hours remaining before IOCCC 2013 entries cannot be released in 2013 (anywhere on earth).
20:48:12 <FreeFull> Oh, I don't think those are actual attacks then
20:51:13 <FreeFull> I should have thought to try reverse dns
20:51:31 <FreeFull> I wonder why my router has been disconnecting from the net though. Probably ISP stupidity
20:51:40 <int-e> right, just port scans. "SPI attack" does not even make sense, I think. (gooduckhoo suggest "Stateful Packet Inspection")
20:52:08 <fizzie> Perhaps it's supposed to vaguely translate to "attack detected by SPI".
20:52:20 <fizzie> As in, unexpected incoming connections.
20:52:59 <fizzie> Though in that case it'd be slightly unclear what "TCP attack" means, then.
20:54:06 <int-e> "See all those packets I've been dropping to keep you safe?"
20:54:43 <fizzie> Aw, my own "misconfigured UPS guy" has stopped. (Or at least is not active right now.)
20:54:46 <int-e> The Internet is a dangerous place.
20:56:01 <FreeFull> TCP attack could be something like unexpected SYNs
21:01:07 <fizzie> But that's what I was assuming "SPI attack" to be. Since it's vaguely related to connection state.
21:01:40 <fizzie> "HTH attack" is what happens on #esoteric often.
21:02:31 <int-e> Followed by a TDNH defense.
21:04:00 <boily> 8 8888 8 8888888 8888888888 8 8888 8 .8. 8888888 8888888888 8888888 8888888888 .8. ,o888888o. 8 8888 ,88'
21:04:02 <boily> 8 8888 8 8 8888 8 8888 8 .888. 8 8888 8 8888 .888. 8888 `88. 8 8888 ,88'
21:04:04 <boily> 8 8888 8 8 8888 8 8888 8 :88888. 8 8888 8 8888 :88888. ,8 8888 `8. 8 8888 ,88'
21:04:06 <boily> 8 8888 8 8 8888 8 8888 8 . `88888. 8 8888 8 8888 . `88888. 88 8888 8 8888 ,88'
21:04:08 <boily> 8 8888 8 8 8888 8 8888 8 .8. `88888. 8 8888 8 8888 .8. `88888. 88 8888 8 8888 ,88'
21:04:10 <boily> 8 8888 8 8 8888 8 8888 8 .8`8. `88888. 8 8888 8 8888 .8`8. `88888. 88 8888 8 8888 88'
21:04:12 <boily> 8 8888888888888 8 8888 8 8888888888888 .8' `8. `88888. 8 8888 8 8888 .8' `8. `88888. 88 8888 8 888888<
21:04:15 <boily> 8 8888 8 8 8888 8 8888 8 .8' `8. `88888. 8 8888 8 8888 .8' `8. `88888.`8 8888 .8' 8 8888 `Y8.
21:04:16 <boily> 8 8888 8 8 8888 8 8888 8 .888888888. `88888. 8 8888 8 8888 .888888888. `88888. 8888 ,88' 8 8888 `Y8.
21:04:18 <boily> 8 8888 8 8 8888 8 8888 8 .8' `8. `88888. 8 8888 8 8888.8' `8. `88888. `8888888P' 8 8888 `Y8.
21:04:39 <kmc> boily: c.c
21:05:17 <oerjan> i am not sure i approve of ASCII art that doesn't show correctly even when i make putty full screen.
21:05:42 * kmc is willing to tolerate a bit of ASCII art spam in the Spirit of New Year's, but only a bit
21:05:43 <lifthrasiir> myndzi is not working, in spite of having much shorter nickname than mine
21:06:24 <kmc> probably it requires the whole block to be to the right of your nick
21:06:34 <kmc> hence the trigger string is " c.c"
21:06:42 <fizzie> It sounds like one bit would not be enough for a that much ASCII art.
21:06:55 <boily> lifthrasiir: myndzi is a very strange bot.
21:07:11 <fizzie> If it just so happens thatc.cit works also inside words, it can't be " c.c" literally.
21:08:50 <kmc> hth, hand, stfu
21:09:18 <oerjan> i am not sure that's a gc.cood test
21:09:21 <fizzie> Talk to the HAND, 'cuz the HTH ain't listening.
21:09:33 <fizzie> How about if it's-|c.c|-like some non-word characters.
21:10:02 <kmc> or you know \bc\.c\b but that looks less itself like a face
21:10:06 <boily> is that a multi-line multi-ocular O?
21:10:09 <fizzie> (Does the mIRC even do \b?)
21:10:14 <kmc> from now on when people tell me to stfu i will think of http://fluxlab.io/2013/12/06/stfu/
21:10:23 <kmc> boily: it's a multi-ocular c.c
21:10:52 <boily> there are some weird mutants roaming in this chännel...
21:12:20 <boily> hah! mine triggered alignedly!
21:13:42 <kmc> boily: high-powered mutants never intended for mass production
21:20:43 <Bike> the bar fucks it up on my end
21:22:24 <int-e> evil double width unicode character
21:30:22 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:32:41 <boily> nisstyre: nisstyrello. how are you by this End of Year?
21:39:24 <nisstyre> I got "Compiling with Continuations" in the mail today
21:40:39 <kmc> now you're thinking with portals
21:41:26 <nisstyre> kmc: I was just playing Portal 2 actually
21:47:04 <boily> disappearing for the night.
21:47:09 <boily> Bonne Année à tous!
21:47:14 -!- boily has quit (Quit: YEARLY CHICKEN!).
21:47:17 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:01:34 <fizzie> Ooo, the timezone of Finland just a 2014 is.
22:02:21 <Taneb> You are now in the future
22:02:51 <fizzie> It smells pretty much like the past did.
22:08:30 <int-e> 51.5 minutes to go here, hmm
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22:26:45 <int-e> -4.3 ... ok. see you next year.
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23:01:38 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
23:01:38 <myndzi> ¦ c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
23:01:39 <myndzi> ´¸¨ c.c /| /| | | /´\ c.c /| | /| |/< c.c |\
23:09:29 <lambdabot> Local time for FireFly is Wed, 01 Jan 2014 00:11:51 +0100
23:09:44 <mroman> Happy new year to you too
23:18:10 <mroman> I can't possibly be from the future
23:18:22 <mroman> How can I be from the future, if I'm dead in the future?
23:19:59 <oerjan> `run echo "We know nothing about the future." >wisdom/future
23:21:23 <oerjan> hm wait it doesn't work that direction.
23:33:49 <HackEgo> Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
23:34:30 <HackEgo> The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
23:35:50 <int-e> Happy new year, too! \o/ \o/ c.c \o_
23:36:22 <Bike> happy new year's eve losers
23:39:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:48:09 <Vorpal> mroman, yeah because I almost never talk
23:56:12 <int-e> oh my, ocean in a bottle ... how could I forget?