00:00:45 <tswett_> Or perhaps just ntrapumpkin
00:01:36 <tswett_> oerjan: I think bignums would be easier if you don't use any fyte beginning with 1. You'd just do stuff in base 376 or whatever.
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00:05:21 <john_metcalf> Argh! PDFs that are only viewable online :-( No way to download.
00:05:24 <john_metcalf> Here: http://issuu.com/adpware/docs/mc069/MC069.pdf
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00:12:09 <Taneb> I'm not sure how Rel forms a category
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00:12:51 <shachaf> With relation composition.
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00:13:33 <shachaf> I like how they call the category where the objects are sets and the arrows are relations Rel, but for some reason the category where the objects are sets and the arrows are functions is called Set.
00:14:19 <Taneb> shachaf, would you rather they called it Fun?
00:14:28 <Bike> is there any actual reason for category names to be truncated to three characters.
00:14:29 <shachaf> That name would be more fun.
00:14:49 <Phantom__Hoover> Bike, because mathematical notation is traditionally terse?
00:14:49 <Bike> better than the one character the rest of math uses, i guess
00:14:49 <shachaf> Bike: yes, there's a deep categorical reason but you just don't know enough to understand it
00:16:14 <Taneb> Also, do any of you have a particularly compelling reason I should not read "Categories, Types and Structures: An Introduction to Category Theory for the Working Computer Scientist" by Andrea Asperti and Giuseppe Longo
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00:16:48 <Phantom__Hoover> i seriously don't get why people complain about this, mathematical variable names are symbolic shorthands
00:16:53 <Bike> CTaSaItCTftWCS is kind of a shitty initialism?
00:17:09 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: same reason i complain about one letter variable names in a program?
00:17:37 <Phantom__Hoover> writing out full words makes expressions significantly harder to read
00:17:43 <Taneb> shachaf, because it had a nice blue cover
00:17:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Bike, it's almost like they're different fields with different needs or something
00:18:17 <Bike> sounds like you haven't been paying attention to the univalent revoluuuuuution
00:21:12 <shachaf> no some other people made it up
00:21:16 <shachaf> Bike is just playing along
00:24:06 <shachaf> Taneb: did you purchase it or something
00:24:44 <Taneb> shachaf, no, I took it out from the library
00:24:45 * oerjan has this extremely vague memory of going to seminars mentioning univalent functions.
00:26:31 <oerjan> and quasiconformal mappings.
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00:32:37 <tswett_> It is kind of interesting how variables in math usually have short names and variables in programming usually have long names.
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00:33:19 <tswett_> It's explained by some degree, I think, by the fact that mathematical expressions are almost always embedded in prose, whereas programming statements usually are not.
00:35:11 <tswett_> There are exceptions, of course. "(a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c" is probably easier to read than "(sharedArgumentType -> intermediateResultType -> finalResultType) -> (sharedArgumentType -> intermediateResultType) -> sharedArgumentType -> finalResultType".
00:35:12 <Koen_> also when you do math with your hand and a pen you want the variable names to be as short as possible
00:35:37 <Koen_> and you want "xy" to mean "x times y" or something, not "one identifier named with two letters"
00:35:51 <Koen_> whereas when you program you want people to understand what you're doing
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00:36:27 <Koen_> I also think lambda-calculus uses a lot more short variable names than imperative programming
00:36:42 <Koen_> which might be a consequence of variables being bounds or free etc.
00:36:58 <Koen_> that is, you know what a variable stands for because you know where it was defined
00:37:41 <Koen_> when you write int(f(x)dx) you don't need anyone to explain to you what x stands for, because it's bound to the integral
00:38:09 <Koen_> whereas in imperative programming if your program starts with "int x;" it's kinda hard to know what it is
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00:51:23 <kmc> yeah, short arbitrary names are good when they are so general that nothing concrete can apply
00:51:45 <kmc> and a lot of the intro Haskell stuff is like that
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00:52:08 <kmc> which probably sets up an unreasonable bias towards short names
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02:10:57 * Sgeo suddenly wants to try Microsoft Bob
02:11:33 <Sgeo> I think I used software that used a Bob-like interface
02:11:38 <Sgeo> Greeting Workshop
02:12:18 <Sgeo> http://www.danielsays.com/daniel-says-images/dlcc/microsoft-bob/bob-lives/bob-in-ms-greetings-workshop-10.gif
02:12:22 <Sgeo> http://www.danielsays.com/ms-bob-16-bob-lives.html
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02:21:30 <kmc> I used Bob!!!
02:24:36 <kmc> we had... hm, not Microsoft Plus!, but some other thing
02:25:32 <kmc> i guess it was just one of the things you get with a Gateway 2000 computer
02:25:40 <kmc> I also borrowed a bunch of these from the library: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_from_The_Magic_School_Bus
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03:29:20 <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them
03:29:26 <kmc> I used them a bit from Visual Basic
03:30:11 <ais523\unfoog> `addquote <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them
03:30:15 <HackEgo> 1125) <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them
03:30:35 <Sgeo> Microsoft Agent is how I got into Creatures
03:31:01 <Sgeo> (I was interested in 'agent', stumbled upon some site that collected... stuff that just happened to use the word, and C3/DS uses the term 'agent')
03:31:15 <ais523\unfoog> and ofc it makes Wine harder to write because now it has to provide animated paperclip APIs, just in case
03:31:37 <Sgeo> Also, there was some chat program where you'd chat via Microsoft Agent. You'd download people's friends list to chat with them
03:31:55 <Sgeo> I would send a command that put the agents to sleep, which stopped them from talking
03:31:58 <Sgeo> Kind of trollish really
03:33:18 <kmc> well I mean "operating system" here in a sense that maps to "Debian" or "GNOME" and not like "Linux kernel"
03:33:31 <kmc> probably it's a DLL and that DLL might work unmodified in WINE
03:33:50 <ais523\unfoog> kmc: Windows devs use the term "kernel" to include many of the important libraries too
03:33:58 <kmc> Sgeo: wow that's even weirder than Comic Chat
03:35:57 <Sgeo> http://thecyberbuddy.com/
03:36:04 <Sgeo> The FAQ certainly sounds like the chat system I remember
03:36:12 <Sgeo> http://thecyberbuddy.com/Page7.html#QQ19
03:36:31 <pikhq> ais523\unfoog: That's courtesy of a pair of legacy issues.
03:36:43 <pikhq> First, kernel.dll was the closest to the kernel on Win16 there was.
03:36:49 <Sgeo> I think I was banned from one of the main chatbots on there
03:36:51 <Sgeo> A long time ago
03:36:58 <pikhq> Second, kernel32.dll is the only documented kernel entry point.
03:37:40 <kmc> i will not be your "cyber buddy"
03:38:18 <kmc> i like how late 90s / early 00s Microsoft just did not give a fuck about using the correct names for anything
03:38:29 <kmc> or actually implementing the standards they claimed to implement, etc
03:40:20 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy i think this calls for a self portrait of Sgeo
03:40:26 <ais523\unfoog> pikhq: pretty much everything in Windows is somehow caused by legacy issues
03:40:35 <ais523\unfoog> except the frequent changes to their recommendations for UI toolkits
03:45:31 <shachaf> kmc: should i see Carrie (musical) this weekend
03:46:38 <kmc> don't know anything about that
03:48:06 <shachaf> isn't that what i pay you for :'(
03:49:24 <kmc> http://wereverinmylaptop.tumblr.com/post/56728391141/snakes-guido-mocafico
03:51:22 <kmc> don't think so
03:56:43 <kmc> hard to know for sure
03:57:02 <Bike> listen to snake hisses and check if you're turned on
03:57:08 <Bike> of course, you may just be an asexual snake
03:57:14 <kmc> or i could be a human with a snake fetish
03:57:17 <oerjan> that doesn't work in our furry age
03:57:23 <kmc> more like scaly
03:57:32 <Bike> i'm not saying there aren't false positives or negatives here!!
03:57:33 <kmc> spider / snake slash fiction
03:57:44 <kmc> Bike: please rephrase in terms of "Type I" and "Type II" errors
03:57:58 <shachaf> that terminology is no better
03:58:09 <oerjan> webscale porn, sounds darnmyinnerdictionaryturnedoffagai
03:58:53 <oerjan> are off-by-one errors type I or type II
03:59:08 <shachaf> kmc: you were kind of snaky last time i saw
03:59:37 <shachaf> you had things snakes have like eyes and a tongue
03:59:39 <kmc> 'COMBINING SNAKE BELOW' (U+1DC2) what
03:59:56 <Bike> `unicode 'COMBINING SNAKE BELOW'
04:00:09 <Bike> i may have already forgotten how this program works :(
04:00:32 <oerjan> Bike: rule (1): if you want _any_ kind of quoting, use `run.
04:00:33 <shachaf> did you know chrome has an ed emulation mode
04:00:40 <shachaf> type a command in the address bar and press ^E
04:00:44 <kmc> `run python -c 'print u"hi\u1dc2".encode("utf-8")'
04:01:29 <oerjan> `run unicode 'COMBINING SNAKE BELOW'
04:01:33 <Bike> cool this program from 1987 is called "PATH" so i will never find it, ever
04:01:51 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
04:02:42 <shachaf> i have two cell phones next to each other
04:02:50 <shachaf> one of them vibrated, which turned the screen on in the other one
04:03:18 <ais523\unfoog> I'm saddened by the sudden realisation that cellphone slash fiction almost certainly already exists :(
04:03:20 <ion> shachaf: Please go on. I’m interested to hear about the whole Rube Goldberg device.
04:04:59 <shachaf> ion: did you learn any exciting category things since last time
04:05:00 <kmc> forbidden love between an iphone and an htc one
04:05:59 <shachaf> forbidden love is allowed in here
04:07:28 <kmc> good to know
04:07:39 <shachaf> kmc: ok do you think Distributive and Representable should both exist "hard to decide"
04:07:50 <ion> shachaf: Not yet. I haven’t been very productive for a while.
04:08:20 <shachaf> class Distributive g where distribute :: Functor f => f (g a) -> g (f a)
04:08:30 <Bike> cool, this chaos paper uses the unit bits/week
04:09:20 <shachaf> er, Functor g => Distributive g
04:09:24 <ion> IO String -> [IO Char]
04:09:53 <shachaf> class Distributive g => g where type Key g :: *; to :: (Key g -> a) -> g a; from :: g a -> Key g -> a
04:10:12 <shachaf> er, Distributive g => Representable g
04:10:46 <shachaf> Representable is for a functor G where G a ~~ T -> a for some T
04:11:23 <shachaf> Distributive ends up having instances for all the same types but it has less power
04:11:28 <shachaf> so does it deserve to exist
04:11:55 <ion> Are there useful Distributive instances without useful Representable instances?
04:12:22 <Bike> is there a kind-level Representable instance between Distributive and Representable
04:12:56 <shachaf> Bike: is that supposed to make sense or should i just stop trying to figure it out
04:13:14 <shachaf> ion: I think every type which is an instance of Distributive is also an instance of Representable.
04:13:34 <ion> Doesn’t sound like a too useful separation then.
04:14:05 <shachaf> Does it give you less power in a useful way? If you make a function which is generic over Distributive or something?
04:17:01 <ion> If there’s a combined instance, can you not still write that function?
04:19:01 <shachaf> copumpkin: is this you a billion years in the future?? http://mathoverflow.net/users/342/sixwingedseraph
04:20:02 <ion> Like Applicative combines Apply and Pointed? Or what would the alternative have been?
04:20:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean.
04:20:30 <ion> Me neither.
04:21:44 <ion> From what i understood, you pointed out two classes with a dependency between them and said every instance of either one is an instance of another. So i thought you were thinking of combining the classes.
04:22:20 <shachaf> Oh. Yes. Combining them into Representable.
04:22:41 <shachaf> Since you can write Distributive easily with to and from.
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05:11:04 <oklofok> "<Phantom__Hoover> writing out full words makes expressions significantly harder to read" but category names are not used in expressions much
05:11:26 <oklofok> that's probably why they are truncated _so little_
05:11:49 <Bike> but still truncated?
05:14:48 <oklofok> "<tswett_> It is kind of interesting how variables in math usually have short names and variables in programming usually have long names." <<< i've always figured this is because you need so many names in programming, while in math you often need just a few vectors. the things that are nonstandard but you need to remember for the whole of the article are usually definitions
05:14:55 <oklofok> and definitions are often just an english word
05:15:12 <oklofok> "We call such a sequence \emph{asstastic}."
05:16:04 <shachaf> what was that question about homotopy or something
05:17:42 <Bike> asstastic prime
05:19:22 <oklofok> shachaf: um i don't recall there being a question
05:19:36 <oklofok> i don't know why i said "vectors"
05:20:31 <Bike> «The noun ‘Pegasus’ itself could then be treated as derivative, and identified after all with a description: ‘the thing that is-Pegasus’, ‘the thing that pegasizes’.»
05:21:42 <oklofok> i personally find one symbol variables annoying, because they are so annoying to look up when you don't remember what they mean (sometimes you basically have to start over).
05:22:03 <oklofok> a longer word you could just search for
05:22:43 <oklofok> if i had a working symbol search that could separate mathmode from textmode, i don't think there would be any problem
05:22:44 <Bike> i guess that ties into the whole 'predates computers' thing.
05:25:47 <oklofok> lol some guy from the czech republic solved my geocaching mystery (which is in finnish)
05:31:24 <kmc> oklofok: relatedly, there's the rule in programming that a variable's name length should be proportional to its scope
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05:36:57 <Bike> and that's why JavaBeanFactoryVisitorFactory is global
05:38:10 <ais523\unfoog> (CLC-INTERCAL's implementation of something similar is more interesting; each process has its own set of variables, but you can steal variables from other processes)
05:38:23 <ais523\unfoog> (stealing filehandles is a particularly nice simple way to set up a simple telnet-a-like)
05:38:46 <oklofok> kmc: i think that would be a good rule for math too
05:39:17 <oklofok> trees would have magnificent names
05:39:54 <Bike> we can rename "Cyprinodon salinus salinus" to "i jy"
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05:41:28 <oklofok> you get a long name when you're born, and a letter drops each year
05:41:38 <oklofok> when you run out of name, you are murdered.
05:42:23 <ais523\unfoog> close family and the like refer to you with shorter names
05:42:25 <Bike> what's the scope of a man
05:42:39 <ais523\unfoog> and you can use shorter nicks in smaller communities
05:42:56 <Bike> counterpoint, i am known by all and sundry as "bike"
05:43:05 <oklofok> that's another way to think about it, but it's not what i'd consider the direct analog of scope
05:43:07 <Bike> countercounterpoint, i don't know what 'sundry' means
05:43:41 <Bike> says something intelligent about minimum description length
05:43:45 <ais523\unfoog> oklofok: well, the scope of a variable is the region of the program from which it's accessible/mentionable/nameable
05:43:45 <kmc> but there are some languages/cultures where more familiar names are diminutives with extra letters
05:44:02 <Bike> "Consisting of a haphazard assortment of different kinds; miscellaneous." what a weird word
05:44:31 <ais523\unfoog> so I guess the scope of a person is either the number of people who have heard of them, the number of people who can describe them, or the number of people who could reasonably expect to be able to just look up their number, phone them up, and talk to them
05:45:45 <oklofok> i think a kid's voice is described as "sundry" in south park in the episode where cartman wants to become the... something of the school in place of wendy
05:46:28 <oklofok> and i didn't know what it means back then, and i just always remember that episode when i hear it, but not the actual meaning
05:46:41 <oklofok> maybe i've always heard wrong
05:46:49 <oklofok> but yeah they ruined my life
05:46:50 <Bike> i've only seen it in the dead phrase 'various and sundry'.
05:47:32 <Bike> which is apparently a hella pleonasm
05:47:38 <oklofok> i seemed to recall you're from the us, and tried to whois you
05:47:43 <oklofok> but i accidentally joined you.
05:47:50 <Bike> ##bike used to exist
05:47:57 <Bike> somebody joined it to ask about bikes once
05:48:17 <Bike> i of course do not endorse ##bike, as indicated by the name
05:48:21 <oklofok> i've been on #unicycling so why not
05:48:42 <Bike> i tried to link them to a channel about biking but i couldn't find one.
05:49:17 <Bike> kind of niche compared to php i guess
05:49:32 <shachaf> wait you were already talking about that word
05:50:08 <shachaf> kmc: 22:11 <nwf> http://www.jwz.org/images/lzamexm.gif -- mri of a banana. That's trippy.
05:51:04 <oerjan> now i can never eat bananas again.
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05:51:18 <Bike> great, i don't remember if bananas are fruits or what.
05:51:41 <Bike> i mean, have you seen a banana tree? that shit is weird.
05:51:54 <shachaf> 22:47 <lexande> nwf: banana flower, not banana fruit
05:52:00 <shachaf> Bike: p. sure bananas don't grow on trees
05:52:11 <oerjan> of course they're not fruits, why would fruit wear pajamas
05:52:22 <shachaf> i have seen many banana trees in my time
05:52:33 <shachaf> oerjan: sounds pretty fruity to me
05:52:37 <Bike> they grow on things that are like trees but not but also are because 'tree' isn't a real category anyway
05:52:59 <Bike> have a music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnai_KrK4Ko
05:53:04 <shachaf> well they don't have a trunk
05:53:11 <shachaf> which is the main requirement to be a tree
05:53:16 <shachaf> for example elephants and cars are trees
05:53:36 <Bike> anyway mainly i was wondering if the banana had xylem and shit in it.
05:54:45 <kmc> shachaf: omg
05:55:09 <kmc> MRI of a sharkbanana
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05:56:56 <HackEgo> Uguubee111119: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:57:44 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's#http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page#<http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>#' wisdom/welcome
05:58:29 <oerjan> `relcome Uguubee111119
05:58:32 <HackEgo> Uguubee111119: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:58:44 <Bike> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e3MjWHdNTkE/UlKV0MgMDEI/AAAAAAAABiQ/Z7CxO0-Q3dE/s1600/Charleysayswww-scarfolk-blogspot-com.jpg some good stuff on jwz today
05:59:50 <Bike> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dq27_3O7T38/UkgoTj0YEfI/AAAAAAAABh0/3i25ms1TQrU/s1600/porn3www-scarfolk-blogspot-com.jpg long lost educational porn films
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07:02:29 <kmc> also i lost
07:03:40 <Bike> lost sharkbananas?
07:07:09 <lambdabot> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/kolkata/kmc-set-to-lose-crores-on-puja-ad-tax/article1-1131980.aspx
07:07:09 <lambdabot> Title: KMC set to lose crores on Puja ad tax - Hindustan Times
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07:10:31 <Bike> you know what's a weird looking function? the half iterate of sine.
07:11:04 <kmc> what about the half iteratee
07:11:05 <Bike> the function f such that f.f = sine.
07:12:15 <Bike> well, i guess the weird part is mostly that as you keep taking half iterates it looks more and more like a triangle wave.
07:13:00 <shachaf> Can you generalize this to real numbers?
07:14:19 <Bike> yeah. here, there's an exact solution for an easier one. the t-th iterate of \x -> x/(1-x) is just \x -> x/(1-x*t).
07:18:35 <lambdabot> defined at /home/lambdabot/.lambdabot/State/L.hs:149:4
07:18:44 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.*', defined at L.hs:1...
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07:20:32 <lambdabot> *Exception: L.hs:150:1-11: Non-exhaustive patterns in function *
07:20:43 <Bike> i didn't do it, honest!
07:21:00 <Bike> i did " @let boring t x = x/(1-x*t)" in privmsg and it said the ambiguous occurence thing.
07:22:10 <Bike> wow, i was going to try to mess with it but like...
07:22:19 <Bike> > boring 1/2 10
07:22:20 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> a -> a))
07:24:30 <Bike> wait, so i did that somehow?
07:25:43 <Bike> ...does "boring 1/2 10" parse as "(boring 1)/(2 10)"? or something?
07:25:55 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> a -> a))
07:26:01 <Bike> > (*) (1/2) 10
07:28:28 <shachaf> Function application is sticker than any operator.
07:33:49 <Bike> so how'd the L.* thing happen.
07:35:39 <shachaf> Someone did @let x * y = ...?
07:35:46 <shachaf> 00:20 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Eq a1, Num a, Num a1, Num a2) => a -> a1 -> a2
07:36:06 <shachaf> Sounds like some 2*2=5 prank or something.
07:37:11 <kmc> go and tell the king that the sky is falling in but it's not
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09:11:16 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VGTK that's just ridiculous.
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12:38:51 <boily> good étuve morning!
12:39:33 <boily> wisdom question: since when are we angle-quoting the URL to the Main Page in the welcomes?
12:40:07 <HackEgo> nooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:40:46 <boily> shachaf: why did you anglify the URL?
12:41:20 <FireFly> Anglifying URLs.. does that make shachaf an angler?
12:42:07 <boily> angler, as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lophius_piscatorius?
12:50:59 <fizzie> boily: I assume because some clients/terminals/etc. otherwise interpret the trailing '.' as part of the URL.
12:52:53 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page%2E works for me
12:56:01 <fizzie> I guess that's a workaround.
12:58:38 <nooodl> well what i'm saying is the extra . doesn't seem to matter either way
13:00:43 <boily> welcome to #esoteric, where everything is off-topic and the points don't matter!
13:02:14 <FireFly> the points are... pointless
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13:48:05 <HackEgo> [U+00D0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ETH] [U+0110 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH STROKE]
13:48:39 <Taneb> `unicode MULTIOCULAR O
13:48:46 <Bike> we're always doing this.
13:48:56 <Taneb> `unicode CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O
13:49:37 <boily> mrhmouse: I was wikiwalking, and they mentioned capital eth and stroken-d being very similar. I had to verify their claim.
13:49:51 <boily> (you know, when you really have to know a useless fact.)
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14:26:19 <john_metcalf> I've just installed the SainT Atari ST emulator. It even simulates the noise of the disk drive!
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14:54:33 <boily> quintopia: you may receive the cookies today and/or Monday.
14:59:13 <boily> (meanwhile Up North, it's raining sideways.)
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16:20:21 <mroman> and I might have a heart attack
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16:30:43 <oerjan> <Bike> you know what's a weird looking function? the half iterate of sine. <-- i am not sure that half iterates are particularly uniquely defined.
16:31:09 <oerjan> when they exist at all.
16:31:53 <oerjan> i suppose having a continuous one at all is an accomplishment, which a triangle wave certainly is.
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16:36:50 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Eq a1, Num a, Num a1, Num a2) => a -> a1 -> a2
16:37:14 <oerjan> shachaf: perfect type match!
16:43:23 <FreeFull> I have seen * be redefined locally to be some arbitrary operator
16:43:35 <oerjan> <boily> (meanwhile Up North, it's raining sideways.) <-- have you checked that the landscape hasn't just tilted?
16:43:54 <oerjan> FreeFull: completely legal
16:44:31 <FreeFull> Just a bit weird to see * not be multiplication
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16:44:57 <FreeFull> I think this is where I saw it
16:46:12 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> (meanwhile Up North, it's raining sideways.) <-- have you checked that the landscape hasn't just tilted?
16:50:55 <Bike> oerjan: in general they're not. half-iterates of identity are a pretty good example
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16:52:49 <boily> oerjan: strong gusts around 40 kt.
16:52:57 <oerjan> > [sin x | x <- [-1,-0.8 .. 1::Float]]
16:52:59 <lambdabot> [-0.84147096,-0.7173561,-0.5646425,-0.38941836,-0.19866937,-5.9604645e-8,0....
16:53:22 <oerjan> > [sin x | x <- [-0.2,0 .. 1::Float]]
16:53:23 <Bike> too good for map, huh
16:53:23 <lambdabot> [-0.19866933,0.0,0.19866933,0.38941833,0.5646425,0.71735615,0.8414711]
16:53:44 <Bike> it doesn't always go well.
16:53:53 <oerjan> i suppose having a constantly shrinking range might force things?
16:53:55 <boily> ~eval map sin [-1,-0.8..1 :: Float]
16:53:55 <Bike> > [0..0.1..1.0]
16:53:56 <metasepia> [-0.84147096,-0.7173561,-0.5646425,-0.38941836,-0.19866937,-5.9604645e-8,0.19866925,0.38941827,0.56464237,0.717356,0.8414709]
16:53:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input `..'
16:54:05 <Bike> > [0,0.1..1.0]
16:54:06 <mroman> > [0.1,0.5 .. 1::Float]
16:54:06 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.1,0.2,0.30000000000000004,0.4000000000000001,0.5000000000000001,0.60...
16:54:09 <ion> I wonder if people would get mad if the powers that be just removed Enum from floats?
16:54:25 <Bike> > succ (1:: Float)
16:54:43 <oerjan> <boily> oerjan: strong gusts around 40 kt. <-- kilotons? are you sure this is normal wind?
16:54:48 <ion> I wonder if that would involve fixing more code than, say, the Num/Eq/Ord change that happened before, or the Functor/Applicative/Monad change that will happen?
16:54:57 <boily> the powers that be achieved enough positive karma by constraining Monads to Applicatives, so I feel they can do whatever they want with Enums.
16:55:32 <ion> boily: That would also be positive karma as far as i’m concerned.
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16:56:00 <oerjan> <ion> I wonder if people would get mad if the powers that be just removed
16:56:06 <boily> oerjan: apparently kn is the preferable abbreviation to “knots”, but kt is accepted.
16:56:18 <boily> (insofar knots are socially correct.)
16:56:33 <oerjan> boily: depends, are you at sea?
16:56:33 <ion> kt is kilotonne. :-P
16:56:46 <Bike> kt is what killed the dinosaurs.
16:57:06 <boily> kt is a telecom in South Korea.
16:58:26 <oerjan> <ion> I wonder if people would get mad if the powers that be just removed Enum from floats? <-- well it _might_ be nice if they actually supported the standard(s) backwards compatibly as written, which they already don't do and are planning to do even less.
16:59:22 <ion> Microsoft started using kt instead of kB in Finnish (because byte is “tavu” – the Finnish grammar doesn’t let allow doing that, though, it would need to be “kt.” to be grammatically correct because it’s an abbreviation and not an official unit symbol) and the whole IT media followed.
16:59:59 <ion> Also, kt is already a SI derived unit symbol.
17:00:20 <oerjan> um tonne isn't official is it?
17:01:24 <oerjan> Bike: thus the kt boundary?
17:01:25 <ion> I actually don’t know for sure, but it’s a hell of a lot more “official” than kilotavu.
17:01:52 <boily> oerjan: “It is a non-SI unit accepted for use with SI.”
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17:02:22 <HackEgo> tertu3: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:02:26 <oerjan> boily: was just about to paste that
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17:10:02 <shachaf> Bike: maybe you can tell me whether naturality and continuity are related somehow
17:10:34 <Bike> naturality sounds like some kind of hippie food brand.
17:11:43 <Bike> continuity doesn't, so probably they're totally unrelated.
17:12:11 <shachaf> continuity could totally be "some kind of hippie food brand" imo
17:12:16 <oerjan> continuity is like the opposite, they want you to keep buying the old poisonous food
17:12:50 <Bike> oerjan: well "KT" just stands for "Cretaceous-Tertiary". presumably German is involved here.
17:14:31 <oerjan> i'm sure we discussed that not many weeks ago.
17:14:54 <Bike> does 'we' include me
17:14:57 <oerjan> also discovered it's now officially changed to cretaceous-paleogene.
17:15:04 <oerjan> Bike: that i don't know.
17:15:23 <Bike> paleogene also sounds like hippie food. category theorists, get on this.
17:16:52 <oerjan> well they cannot change it to c now that it is paleogene.
17:18:43 * oerjan thinks he should drop the next pun he's thinking of.
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17:21:05 <boily> I fail to understand the link between hippie brands and categories.
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17:21:43 <oerjan> boily: it's a natural transformation
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17:22:58 * boily facepalms... “hook, line, sinker...”
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17:27:08 <HackEgo> 2013-10-29 00:06:06: <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
17:28:47 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:27:08: <HackEgo> 2013-10-29 00:06:06: <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
17:28:53 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:28:47: <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:27:08: <HackEgo> 2013-10-29 00:06:06: <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
17:29:11 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:28:53: <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:28:47: <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:27:08: <HackEgo> 2013-10-29 00:06:06: <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
17:29:30 <boily> I need to find a way to include django in that...
17:30:15 <Bike> well, that's easy.
17:30:20 <HackEgo> 265) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named a
17:30:29 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:30:20: <HackEgo> 265) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo>
17:30:36 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:30:29: <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:30:20: <HackEgo> 265) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monq
17:31:08 <boily> sadly, it doesn't make for a good quote :(
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18:07:06 <lmt> /\\\\//\\\\\\///\\\\/\\\\\\\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\///\\//\\\\/\\//\\/\\//////\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\//\\//\\\\/\\//\\\\\\///\\\\//\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\\\\\///\\\\/\\\\\\\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\///\\//\\\\/\\//\\/\\//////\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\//\\//\\\\/\\//\\\\\\///\\\\//\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\\\\\///\\\\/\\\\\\\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\///\\//\\\\/\\//\\/\\//////\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\//\\//\\\\/\\//\\\\\\///\\\\//\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\\
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18:08:42 <lmt> boily: // \ \\/ \\/ //
18:10:26 * lmt \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
18:12:06 * boily ////es lmt with a \\//\//\\\
18:15:39 <boily> it only was a small \\//\//\\\. it won't leave no bruise (well, after a week at least)
18:17:26 <mrhmouse> I wasn't interested at all in the conversation until that comment.
18:18:07 <lmt> vice versa for me
18:18:11 <lmt> i lost all interest
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18:20:51 <FreeFull> Are we making labyrinths on the C64 again?
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18:47:15 <kmc> FreeFull: like http://10print.org/ ?
18:47:30 <kmc> "labyrinth" is a much cooler word than "maze", it's true
18:48:17 <lmt> This book takes a single line of code—the extremely concise BASIC program for the Commodore 64 inscribed in the title
18:48:28 <lmt> these guys clearly haven't heard of golfscript
18:50:05 <mroman> that almost certainly will crash adobe pdf reader
18:50:17 <Bike> you've never seen a pdf that big before?
18:50:23 <Bike> i mean, it's shit, but not uncommon.
18:52:14 <boily> aren't there alternatives to the Adobe on Windows?
18:54:47 <lmt> i guess it's not actually that much shorter in golfscript?
18:55:11 <lmt> my naive approach is 1{2 rand"/""\\"if.print}do
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18:56:31 <tromp_> not much of a maze without branches
18:57:26 <lmt> tromp_: the characters themselves form a branched maze though
18:57:41 <lmt> if you print them nicely like on 10print.org
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19:08:31 <lmt> seriously though
19:08:42 <lmt> can someone tell me the right golfscript program to do that?
19:09:01 <lmt> i'm missing something with golfscript's conversion between strings and integers
19:18:04 <boily> golfscript looks strangely J-like...
19:19:28 <FreeFull> kmc: More accurate than maze too for this
19:19:37 <FreeFull> Since you don't get any branching paths
19:19:53 <FreeFull> You don't get dead-ends either
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19:51:10 <john_metcalf> Has anyone here got access to the McCarthy files at Stanford?
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20:12:12 <mroman> golfscript is J on speed
20:13:56 <mroman> which reminds me to continue working on my Mahou project
20:15:12 <mroman> Why is there no webprogramming language
20:15:21 <mroman> It would be about time for one
20:15:43 <mrhmouse> You mean like JavaScript, or am I missing something?
20:15:58 <mrhmouse> You can do JavaScript server side.
20:16:55 <mroman> I'm looking for a language really made for that purpose
20:17:09 <mroman> PHP is merely a C-Api embedded in Apache
20:17:10 <mrhmouse> You're talking about generating pages?
20:17:25 <mroman> something like haskell's route
20:17:27 <mrhmouse> JavaScript is a good candidate, actually >>
20:17:47 <mrhmouse> JavaScript still winning here.
20:18:16 <kmc> i'm confused, you are just looking for a server side web language in general? cause uh a lot of those exist
20:18:27 <kmc> what is the context of "Why is there no webprogramming language"
20:18:38 <kmc> every major language has a web framework or six
20:18:46 <mroman> I don't want a web framework
20:18:47 <kmc> Python has like two dozen
20:18:51 <mroman> Web frameworks do exists
20:19:13 <mrhmouse> So.. you want a language that does nothing but web?
20:19:35 <mroman> ideally some kind of language with very neat modelling support
20:20:08 <kmc> what would be the point of that? the things you need to do to build websites fit well into most general purpose languages
20:21:00 <mroman> but not perfectly neat
20:21:02 <mrhmouse> As I'm understanding it, you want: view generation (templates), data storage and access, URL routing, and "neat modelling support" (whatever that is)...?
20:21:19 <kmc> mroman: that should be fixed with better libraries rather than fundamentally new languages
20:21:26 <kmc> but also, there are web specific languages e.g. http://opalang.org/
20:21:47 <mroman> Django is really close to what I'd expect
20:22:02 <mroman> it essentially generates the whole database etc from python classes
20:22:27 <mrhmouse> So you want a code-first approach - plenty of frameworks offer that :P
20:23:37 <mrhmouse> Really, it sounds like you can get what you want by combining several existing libraries..
20:23:43 <mroman> I actually want modell first :)
20:24:04 <lmt> pythonpython
20:24:06 <lmt> pythonpythonpython
20:24:07 <lmt> pythonpythonpythonpython
20:24:37 <mroman> I don't want to write <li><a href="{% foo.id %}">{{foo.title}} etc
20:24:40 <kmc> say python again, say python again, i dare you, i double dare you motherfucker, say python one more goddamn time
20:24:42 <mroman> that's already too low-level
20:25:23 <lmt> oh no you didn't
20:25:28 <mroman> I want a WYSIWYG editor to create Websitse
20:25:30 <lmt> just say "too low-level" in #esoteric
20:25:54 <lmt> webscheiße
20:26:05 <olsner> fun fact: the swedish word for python means disgusting
20:26:07 <mroman> or a lanugage that suitable is close enough to wysiwy
20:26:18 <kmc> what you see is what you
20:26:26 <mroman> y brain just has shutten down
20:26:35 <kmc> all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be
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20:26:43 <mroman> and strangely my shoulder still hurts when I breathe
20:26:58 <kmc> try breathing with your lungs instead
20:27:18 <olsner> or try not breathing, if it hurts it must be bad for you
20:27:55 <mroman> I'm gonna go back to watching some Jason Bourne Movie
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20:29:11 <mrhmouse> mroman: How's li a href: foo.d, foo.title
20:29:35 <mrhmouse> or if you write a helper method, just listAnchorFor foo
20:35:18 <kmc> mroman: you're right that there are improvements to be made in HTML template languages
20:35:24 <kmc> and those languages can be embedded within programming languages
20:35:36 <kmc> but there's no reason the encompassing programming language needs to be redesigned from scratch
20:35:48 <kmc> e.g. Yesod has some fancy template languages for HTML and CSS and JS, but it's embedded within Haskell
20:35:55 <lmt> html embedded in javascript embedded in javascript
20:36:07 <Bike> <script type="text/html">
20:36:09 <lmt> is the foreseeable future
20:36:11 <Bike> lang=, whatever
20:36:22 <mrhmouse> let's take a burger king, and put it inside a taco bell
20:36:43 <kmc> and deep fry the whole thing
20:36:51 <lmt> kmc: nuke Mountain View
20:37:09 <kmc> it's already contaminated with trichloroethane
20:37:10 <mroman> and my Monad/Lense/WeirdHaskellStuff Knowledge is not good enough for Yesod
20:37:27 <kmc> mroman: so you want a new language from scratch because you can't be bothered to learn the existing one?
20:38:04 <Bike> the premier motivation for new languages
20:38:18 <mroman> Isn't that the whole reason why there are so many languages?
20:38:26 <kmc> sorry if I'm being a jerk
20:38:47 <mroman> You have a valid point
20:38:58 <mroman> I just don't think of Haskell as "the answer"
20:39:09 <kmc> nobody said it was
20:39:11 <lmt> i don't even think of haskell as "an answer"
20:39:12 <mrhmouse> mroman: but there are plenty of other languages with comparable frameworks
20:39:13 <kmc> Yesod was just an example
20:39:20 <kmc> you can do embedded template languages in many languages
20:39:32 <kmc> the general point is that there's no reason why you need to reinvent variables and functions and for loops for Web use
20:39:42 <kmc> that's the whole point of embedded domain specific languages
20:39:57 <kmc> don't reimplement the stuff that every PL has because you'll do a bunch of work and make something shitty
20:40:06 <kmc> just embed the special stuff you need within an existing good language
20:40:07 <mroman> I'm totally aware that my expectations are not realistic
20:40:13 <kmc> your expectations are not coherent
20:40:19 <mroman> and that too probably.
20:40:23 <kmc> well ok then :)
20:40:25 <kmc> this is #esoteric
20:40:29 <kmc> make an esoteric web language :)
20:40:43 <lmt> template language embedded withtin Befunge-93
20:40:58 <mroman> There's nothing wrong with
20:41:15 <mroman> {{% for %}} ... {{% <li><a href="">{{% foo.title%}}
20:41:22 <Bike> befunge template language... maybe you have to draw out the tree
20:41:47 <mroman> There are tools which are capable of defining meta-modells
20:41:49 <lmt> Bike: it's very practical
20:41:52 <mroman> and code generator for those
20:41:55 <Bike> highly intuitive
20:42:16 <mroman> so effectively for your 0815 blog/homepage there should be some click-your-shit-together Tool
20:42:32 <Bike> hm, that gives me an idea, which i will try to do later when i am not distracted by homework and diffeomorphisms
20:42:35 <mroman> as you could define properties, relations etc. with those tools.
20:42:39 <FireFly> A web server in befunge-98 sounds like a good idea
20:43:03 <lmt> FireFly: using 98 instead of 93 will just lead to feature bloat
20:43:05 <mrhmouse> so you want a gui that generates code in a language that's specifically designed to easily write code for websites
20:43:11 <mroman> that would actually be a neat Bachelor Thingy
20:43:15 <mroman> for my Bachelors Degree
20:43:20 <mroman> in some kind of science
20:43:34 <Bike> a new kind of science
20:43:37 <FireFly> lmt: ...I'm not sure if you could fit an HTTP server in 80x25 fungespace
20:43:58 <mroman> I'm totally convinced that anything I do can't possibly be science.
20:44:51 <olsner> fungot: are you a http server?
20:44:52 <fungot> olsner: seems pretty cool... thanks. :)
20:45:40 <lmt> FireFly: of course you could
20:45:53 <olsner> hmm, a/an and acronyms is tricky... imagine that was "a hypertext [...] server"
20:45:56 <lmt> FireFly: you relize there's chess in befunge
20:46:45 <lmt> you'd have to go easy on the headers and stuff but it would still be compliant
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21:02:13 <mroman> Befunge is probably easier than Beam?
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22:21:41 <Taneb> I'm not sure if the last panel of today's El Goonish Shive is happening in canon or in an imagination spot
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23:17:21 <fungot> FireFly: html isn't a programming language.
23:17:32 <fungot> FireFly: why to which? :p. ugh i need to write
23:17:40 <FireFly> right. you need to write befunge
23:18:17 <olsner> fungot: teach FireFly befunge now
23:18:17 <fungot> olsner: ( the one that came to mind. at least as much.
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23:37:30 * oerjan notes that whatever lmt pasted was not the /// quine.
23:38:27 <oerjan> !slashes this is quite dead, right?
23:38:38 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:38:47 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
23:38:59 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanet
23:39:38 <oerjan> that doesn't work either :(
23:40:19 <oerjan> ok tested on command line, prints nothing.
23:40:42 <oerjan> may have got cut off, of course.
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23:47:36 <oerjan> <olsner> fun fact: the swedish word for python means disgusting <-- also norwegian.
23:48:36 <oerjan> y'all are such zombies.
23:49:20 <olsner> hi oerjan and welcome to hours after the "party"
23:49:23 <lmt> i'm not a zombie
23:49:48 <lmt> NOW you're walking.
23:50:21 <olsner> I wonder if there's a languagelog about scandinavian snake words
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23:51:05 <kmc> do io_error::cond.trap(|_| { // hoo-boy...
23:51:06 <kmc> }).inside {
23:51:13 <kmc> that's from the official docs!
23:51:18 <kmc> for how to open a file!
23:51:39 <olsner> the node.js docs recommend grepping stderr for error messages to figure out if process creation failed
23:51:54 <oerjan> slangslang från skandinavien
23:52:14 <olsner> oerjan: slang = snake in norwegian? that's so cute
23:52:29 <kmc> olsner: hilarious
23:52:40 <kmc> shachaf: conditions are *weird*
23:52:53 <lmt> python is a language, not a slang!
23:52:57 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/tutorial-conditions.html#conditions
23:53:04 <kmc> I'm told these are a big deal in CL too...
23:53:48 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how I can call glReadPixels and ask for 3,098,172 bytes and I get 2,154 extra bytes
23:53:53 <kmc> bonus pixels imo
23:54:05 <Bike> error-correcting pixels
23:54:29 <kmc> it corrects the error to a segfault
23:55:22 <kmc> very pixel
23:55:32 <lmt> such bytes
23:56:30 <olsner> (I did some node.js the other day, it's pretty horrible and callbacks)
23:58:12 <lmt> http://nojs.de/
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00:01:39 <kmc> (keine js?)
00:01:47 <shachaf> whoa, dude, /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid
00:02:21 <olsner> `cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid
00:02:23 <HackEgo> 4cb5772d-2326-470d-b9e0-e54c0936ad18
00:02:47 <lmt> eine.js kleine.js nachtmusik.js
00:03:25 <kmc> such uuid, very identifier
00:03:29 <kmc> this will never get old
00:03:45 <lmt> at least indent it properly
00:03:51 <olsner> I was going to say "but my real linux doesn't seem to have it" but then I noticed I was trying to *run* it, not cat it
00:03:52 <lmt> wow very uuid
00:03:56 <lmt> such unique
00:04:03 <olsner> uuids are (apparently) not executable
00:05:49 <kmc> lmt: needs color codes too
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00:18:02 <kmc> perhaps bonghits
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00:22:56 <fizzie> I think there's a small brainfucker in every one of us.
00:23:23 <lmt> small brain, small fucker
00:23:24 <kmc> `rwelcome madabyss
00:23:27 <HackEgo> madabyss: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:23:56 <shachaf> imo `rwelcome should be reserved for rwbarton
00:25:53 <madabyss> I'm trying to get into brainfuck just to mess around with it. I'm having trouble getting an environment setup.. What interpreter should I use?
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00:29:40 <olsner> "Just remember, ten years ago is pretty much 2004 now. Not 1990."
00:29:54 <Bike> i don't believe you
00:31:49 <olsner> it seems it's the same for everyone, "now" gets stuck somewhere and refuses to make progress in the same pace as real time
00:32:34 <olsner> (or it might just be that I'm not making the appropriate amount of progress through my life)
00:37:55 <kmc> that's kind of how I feel too
00:38:13 <kmc> (the answer is that OpenGL has a bit of global state that says whether to align pixel rows to a word boundary)
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01:09:17 <Koen_> `run trigger "____----____----____----____ iiii_i iiH L111 L H000"
01:09:19 <HackEgo> bash: trigger: command not found
01:09:37 <Koen_> ìnterp trigger "____----____----____----____ iiii_i iiH L111 L H000"
01:09:50 <Koen_> `interp trigger "____----____----____----____ iiii_i iiH L111 L H000"
01:10:35 <Koen_> well that was supposed to be a truth-machine
01:10:58 <Bike> imo redefine 0 to mean truth
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01:12:29 <fizzie> 0 is one of the outputs of a truth-machine.
01:14:33 <Koen_> the other outputs are: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 (this list is not exhaustive, you can help by expanding it)
01:14:52 <fizzie> ...1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, ... just doing my part here
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01:47:57 <Phantom__Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%27s_fundamental_theorem_of_natural_selection
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01:49:45 <humpdayy> Hey all! I wanna learn brainfuck. Where's a good place to start?
01:50:04 <lmt> i don't know
01:50:11 <lmt> but i can tell you what's not a good place to start
01:50:19 <lmt> http://tvtropes.org
01:50:57 <humpdayy> Okay... you were right about that.
01:51:23 <lmt> it's probably one of the worst places you could start, really
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01:52:47 <Phantom__Hoover> humpdayy, er... read the spec? read some example programs?
01:53:05 <fizzie> The esolangs.org brainfuck article is somewhat likely to be better than tvtropes.
01:54:04 <humpdayy> Fizzie: indeed. Ive been reading around the google results. Nothin is really helping me understand it.
01:54:49 <Phantom__Hoover> depending on your level of programming knowledge the answer may just be "learn something else first"
01:55:12 <oerjan> lmt: no tvtropes is a good place to start, as long as you don't need to _end_.
01:56:10 <lmt> i don't think you will learn much about brainfuck at any part of the process
01:56:51 <lmt> oops, that's not true
01:57:02 <lmt> "Brainfuck is an extremely literal implementation of a minimal turing machine where most of the actual work is done with increment and decrement instructions. Meaningful programming requires the programmer to keep very close track of the memory state as well as a thorough knowledge of the ASCII character set, so the mindscrew comes from the extreme tedium required to do anything useful. "
01:57:06 <oerjan> tvtropes's top hit for brainfuck is MindScrew/Other. seems appropriate.
01:57:08 <lmt> -- tvtropes.org
01:57:09 <Phantom__Hoover> humpdayy, OK right, where exactly are you faltering in your efforts to understand Brainfuck?
01:57:36 <lmt> "mindscrew" doesn't quite have the same ring to it
01:58:01 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14
01:58:17 <lmt> that's a really bad description of brainfuck, though
01:58:28 <lmt> thorough knowledge of the ASCII character set?
01:59:04 <humpdayy> I am a programmer but i thought it be cool to learn some esoteric stuff. Brainfuck looks like fun
01:59:18 <oerjan> lmt: well it's true, how else would you write Hello, World!
01:59:31 <oerjan> i guess you don't need it for cat.
01:59:39 <lmt> i'm not sure how meaningful hello world is
01:59:54 <lmt> what does it really mean?
02:00:00 <oerjan> well you would also need it to recognize meaningful input.
02:00:31 <lmt> the program could do that itself, using a neural network
02:00:41 <lmt> thus not limiting you to any particular character set
02:00:52 <oerjan> lmt: it's an expression of greeting toward the common environment
02:02:16 <nooodl> i think befunge is much more fun to start out on
02:02:20 <nooodl> as far as fun esoprogramming goes
02:02:29 <Phantom__Hoover> humpdayy, if you can't get past the spec I really can't help you, it's one of the simplest esolangs conceptually.
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02:03:31 <lmt> i agree with nooodl, learn befunge 93 instead
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02:03:52 <nooodl> scared off by Phantom__Hoover
02:04:05 <lmt> admittedly if he can't learn brainfuck what are the chances of him mastering befunge
02:04:35 <nooodl> brainfuck is easier to "get" but i think befunge is muuuch easier to get stuff done in
02:04:38 <AndroUser> Sorry, got kicked. What are we talking about? What was tbat YouTube link?
02:05:02 <lmt> which youtube link, this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRF28GvoL7M
02:08:54 <oerjan> AndroUser: it's internet cancer, says so in the comments.
02:09:32 <oerjan> also the other one was just a random Sgeo link. expect no relevance to current conversation.
02:10:05 <oerjan> (expect computer archeology, though)
02:11:38 <oerjan> couldn't watch much of it, although now i'm wondering what "pero" means in japanese.
02:13:51 <pikhq> Particularly in the psuedoonomatopoeietic form "peropero".
02:14:35 <oerjan> given the characters, for a brief moment i wondered if it was the japanese form of "pedobear"
02:15:43 <pikhq> Japanese "pedobear" is "kumaa", and has no real sexual connotations.
02:16:02 <pikhq> Just a funny drawing on 2chan is all.
02:16:36 <oerjan> ah so that was added by western perverts.
02:16:38 <pikhq> (it's from Japan, 4chan just added the weird "pedo" stuff to it memetically)
02:17:37 <oerjan> it all makes sense now, for the next few seconds.
02:18:20 <oerjan> ais523 should be here, he knows how to make stuff in brainfuck.
02:18:32 <pikhq> Oh, it's that video. Mori no Ando-san. Figured as much.
02:18:53 <pikhq> That there is a one-man student project.
02:21:13 <kmc> I heard a story in the elevator about a young startup that had hired actors to play pool in their office while they were interviewing people, in order to show off their "fun corporate culture"
02:21:17 <kmc> burn it all down, imo
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02:29:34 <Bike> and start again?
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02:35:47 <Bike> being paid to play a game sounds good though
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04:02:25 <kmc> oerjan: sure they do
04:02:29 <kmc> you just need a better oxidizer
04:07:12 <lmt> 19:21 <kmc> I heard a story in the elevator about a young startup that had hired actors to play pool in their office while they were interviewing people, in order to show off their "fun corporate culture"
04:07:16 <lmt> nuke mountain view
04:07:58 <shachaf> hired actors? why not have the employees do it
04:08:23 <shachaf> well, maybe the actors were employees
04:09:09 <kmc> i heard the story in sf
04:09:09 <pikhq> shachaf: The employees are software engineers.
04:09:17 <pikhq> Have you seen them having fun?
04:09:18 <kmc> I think the issue is that there were no employees, yet
04:09:21 <kmc> and they were trying to hire one
04:09:22 <pikhq> It scares off management.
04:11:53 <shachaf> pikhq: weren't you moving to mountain view or something
04:12:09 <pikhq> That seemed possible at one point.
04:12:24 <pikhq> I'm in Missouri actually.
04:13:04 <pikhq> And delightfully employed.
04:13:33 <pikhq> And delightfully not-living-in-mother's-basement.
04:14:08 <pikhq> My summer internship kinda sorta morphed into a fulltime job.
04:14:25 <Bike> congratulations?
04:15:21 <shachaf> Bike: so you never answered my question about naturality or whatever it was
04:15:46 <Bike> i said something dumb about hippie food because why do you ask me these questions
04:16:06 <shachaf> because you, like, know maths and stuff, right
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11:38:53 <augur> idris's new ! operator is a boon for perverse dependent type fans
11:43:56 <augur> quick tutorial in case you're curious:
11:44:33 <augur> M{!N} = do x <- N ; M{x}
11:45:34 <augur> eg [sqrt !xs] = do x <- xs ; [sqrt x]
11:46:19 <augur> the order is left to right scope, so M{!N,!P} = do x <- N ; y <- P ; M{x,y} provided !N is before !P in M
11:47:08 <augur> the height of the resulting scope is as high as possible. it looks for an appropriate monadic value as high in the syntax as it can, regardless of what other types are in the way
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11:49:01 <augur> someone please have some fun with function monads for me :D
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12:58:33 <fizzie> According to the local bicycling/walking route finder, you go across the street and into a building by using a ferry (fi: "lautta"): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131102-lautta.png
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15:01:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_(Unix) "Or, you can try below script, which performance is much better than one line solution previous." Very encyclopedic, that article.
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17:33:09 <nooodl> fizzie: "And it's slow due to some limitation." nice
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17:39:18 <fizzie> "/sys/firmware/efi/vars/CoolConsole-46fe2754-75ed-40db-a395-032d70994457" hmm. Well, I guess it's cool.
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18:13:55 <quintopia> i have now hiked 2174 miles of AT this year
18:15:04 <quintopia> appalachian trail havent we discussed this
18:16:58 <oerjan> i think my memory is allergic to appalachia, since i never can remember clearly where it is.
18:17:47 <oerjan> somewhere near the east coast, i think
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18:45:58 <Bike> http://www.businessinsider.com/sexiest-startup-ceos-2013-10 burn it down
18:50:58 <copumpkin> I mean, er, that's the list I use when I'm looking for a job
18:51:08 <mroman> Otherwise I'm not going to click that link .
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18:51:46 <copumpkin> you that afraid of catching the gay that you're afraid to even click on something that might call a dude sexy?
18:51:55 <mroman> No, that's why there's a space before the dot.
18:52:07 <copumpkin> it's a mix of both, and is shitty for other reasons
18:52:52 <mroman> That has nothing todo with being afraid
18:53:15 <copumpkin> does the space-before-the-period have a special meaning? I'm clearly clueless :(
18:53:46 <mroman> copumpkin: It's used to indicate that the statement is not meant seriously in german chats
18:54:57 <kmc> i hear the NSA has the technology to make people gay through the internet
18:55:30 <Bike> truth and gayness bombs
18:57:22 <mroman> businessinsider.com is down anyway
18:57:46 <mroman> or my connection to it
18:59:59 <Bike> well you're not missing anything.
19:01:13 * FireFly had to check twice to see if Bike's dot had a space preceding it.
19:02:08 <Bike> nope you're really not
19:02:42 <kmc> does a zerowidth space count
19:03:34 <copumpkin> I hear I can be a huge asshole if I put a space before my periods .
19:03:35 <mroman> I'm suprised that it's not a world wide common notation
19:04:07 <mroman> It's better than </irony>
19:04:40 <Bike> i'm surprised too⸮
19:05:19 <copumpkin> I try (but sometimes fail) to restrict my ironic asshole remarks to smaller groups that are okay with that kind of humor and know there's 0% chance that I'm actually okay with the behavior I'm mocking
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19:06:42 <mroman> If I were to implement a very fake high-level network card into my emulator
19:31:57 <kmc> it's weird to me that (per dominent social norms) straight guys are supposed to be turned off by the idea of a threesome with a girl and another guy
19:32:32 <kmc> sorry, I was just thinking about that this morning, and it's slightly related to previous topic
19:33:57 <Bike> too many dicks spoil the stew. ideal dick stew only needs about two dicks per five people being served. remember to cook them thoroughly, but not too thoroughly as that kills the flavor
19:37:30 <kmc> tomorrow on jerkcity
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19:47:12 <Sgeo> Shoe repair person called my shoe garbage and said I should throw it out
19:48:15 <Bike> your shoe garbage has a phone?
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19:53:07 <mroman> I've just read that as Shoe repear person called my (shoe garbage)
19:53:16 <mroman> like he phoned your shoe garbage
19:53:22 <Bike> wait it's not htat
19:53:37 <Bike> "The shoe repair person called my shoe 'garbage', and said that I should throw it out"
19:53:50 <Bike> i took like thirty seconds trying to understand what sgeo said
19:54:15 <Sgeo> Oh, I thought you understood but were trying to be humorous
19:55:25 <mroman> Why are you going to a shoe repair guy?
19:55:29 <mroman> are they that valuable?
19:55:42 <mroman> I imagine there aren't many shoe repair guys around anymore.
19:55:55 <mroman> and if they do, they're probably pretty expensive
19:56:04 <mroman> compared to just buying a new shoe.
19:56:41 <mroman> but I've never had a shoe repaired so.. I might be completely wrong.
19:57:01 <mroman> and no one ever phoned my shoes .
19:57:14 <Sgeo> I thought it would be more convenient than buying new shoes
19:57:19 <Sgeo> To get my current shoes repaired
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20:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112991589/brain-teaser-mathematician-carl-friedrich-gauss-110113/
20:01:21 <Bike> is redorbit a porn site
20:03:49 * Sgeo is reading Worm
20:04:23 <Bike> oh good, it wasn't just me who thought of young frankenstein
20:04:26 <Sgeo> http://parahumans.wordpress.com/table-of-contents/
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20:30:55 <kmc> i buy cheap sneakers and mostly they wouldn't be worth repairing but I've had success in a few cases
20:31:38 <kmc> you can buy replacement insoles at any drugstore and they're usually more comfortable too
20:32:01 <kmc> also one time the bottom bit of rubber started coming off and I fixed it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_Goo
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20:40:46 * njm imposes into ion
20:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, so the inverse of the vimes theory of economic unfairness
20:41:26 <ion> njm: Are you the licker?
20:49:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: hm?
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20:53:47 <Sgeo> kmc: A character in Discworld
20:53:58 <Bike> the one where poor people can only afford cheap boots that don't last
20:54:06 <Bike> so they have to keep buying them
20:54:17 <Sgeo> Expresses the idea that people with less money buy cheaper things, but they wear out soon, soon, so they end up spending more
20:55:47 <kmc> it's true that being poor is expensive
20:55:51 <kmc> for lots of reasons, not just that one
20:56:00 <FreeFull> And then can never save up the money to buy the things that last longer
20:56:33 <FreeFull> I think banks tend to screw over poor people
20:57:18 <FreeFull> Any kind of unexpected bill is a huge setback
20:58:06 <kmc> most Americans don't have the cash on hand to deal with a $1000 emergency expense
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20:59:08 <kmc> the rich can eat very cheaply because we have free time to cook, free time to shop for the best prices, access to a good kitchen, spare cash to buy ingredients in bulk
20:59:57 <kmc> that's a big one I think
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21:04:57 <kmc> people argue a lot on whether it's possible to eat for $x/day but they often ignore this aspect of it
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21:17:47 <mroman> Breakfast 3 CHF. Lunch 13 CHF. Dinner: 11 CHF.
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21:19:34 <mroman> for one person of course
21:19:50 <kmc> that's a huge amount of money
21:20:21 <mroman> and 13 CHF is a really cheap restaurant :)
21:20:38 <kmc> i hear that .ch is expensive as fuck
21:22:13 <kmc> another interesting fact is that the more liberal states in the US have higher minimum wage, but this is more than eaten up by cost of living
21:22:50 <fizzie> I think our monthly food expenses (for two) hover somewhere around 300 EUR -- well, food and some assorted grocery store stuff, anyway -- but that's not counting the lunch at work, which is about 5.5 EUR/day/person.
21:22:56 <kmc> so if you earn minimum wage you have to work more hours per week in California or New York or Massachusetts than in the middle of nowhere conservative places
21:23:05 <mroman> 2.80 Dollar for a regular cheesburger
21:23:16 <mroman> if you allow me to compare burger prices :)
21:23:29 <kmc> http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index
21:24:22 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index#Manipulation
21:24:38 <kmc> "Guillermo Moreno, Secretary of Commerce in the Kirchner government, reportedly forced McDonald's to sell the Big Mac at an artificially low price to manipulate the country's performance on the Big Mac index"
21:24:41 <mroman> what's the us average monthly income?
21:24:54 <kmc> median is probably more useful than average
21:26:14 <mroman> If I'd take the lousiest job I would still do
21:26:22 <mroman> I'd get 4500 Dollars a month
21:27:23 <kmc> the median household income in the US is like $4400 / mo
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21:27:39 <kmc> I'm not sure what comparison you're making so I don't know if individual or household income is more relevant
21:28:04 <mroman> household would include both husband and wife?
21:28:18 <kmc> in households which have a husband and a wife, yes
21:28:49 <mroman> 2700 is apparentely the median salary
21:29:05 <mroman> standardized to 180 hours/month
21:29:30 <mroman> 45 hour week sounds long :)
21:29:37 <kmc> there are more than 4 weeks in a month
21:29:45 <kmc> > 2700 * 12 / 52
21:29:58 <kmc> > 180 * 12 / 52
21:30:11 <mroman> that sounds more like a regular work wee
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21:31:02 <mroman> Comparisions are so hard
21:31:06 <mroman> Even if you standardize them
21:31:21 <mroman> It's true that in some poor country you can live on a few dollars
21:31:29 <mroman> and buy food for which I pay ten times as much
21:32:01 <mroman> even if I pay more than them (measured relative to salary)
21:32:06 <mroman> they still live much poorer than me
21:33:21 <mroman> Some people think that it somehow "evens out"
21:33:33 <mroman> Maybe I pay 1/4 just for rent
21:33:42 <kmc> how much is your rent
21:33:44 <mroman> where others pay maybe 1/8 just for rent
21:33:48 <kmc> also where do you live?
21:34:04 <mroman> but that does not take into account, that my house/appartment is way better than theirs :)
21:34:15 <mroman> kmc: that was supposed to be an example
21:34:20 <mroman> I don't actually pay rent yet
21:34:33 <mroman> I know how much I would have to pay :)
21:34:48 <mroman> for a regular appartment it's about 700 CHF
21:34:57 <mroman> i.e student appartment
21:35:16 <mroman> so that's around 780 dollars a month
21:35:54 <kmc> in a big city?
21:36:53 <fizzie> The 45-square-metre apartment right next door from us was just rented to someone new for 850 EUR/month.
21:36:54 <mroman> zurich is probably more expensive
21:37:04 <mroman> it's a smaller city next to zurich
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21:37:27 <mroman> Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,400.00 Fr.
21:38:09 <mroman> Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 1,100.00 Fr.
21:38:31 <mroman> student appartments are obviously less expensive ;)
21:38:51 <Koen_> you can buy an appartment for 1,400.00 Fr. ??????? where do you live?
21:39:27 <mroman> buying is about 8000 CHF per square meter
21:39:33 <mroman> according to this website
21:39:41 <Koen_> that sounds more reasonable
21:39:58 <mroman> All I can say from my own experience is that student appartments usually range from about 600 to 900 CHF
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21:42:01 <mroman> Meal, Inexpensive Restaurant 20.00 Fr
21:42:16 <mroman> there definetyl are cheaper restaurants :)
21:42:23 <Koen_> are Fr. and CHF the same thing?
21:42:39 <mroman> chinese restaurants are usually more like 12 CHF :)
21:43:50 <mroman> Koen_: CHF is the international abbreviation
21:44:04 <mroman> and Fr. or SFr. is what you use as someone living here
21:44:59 <kmc> Confoederatio Helvetica
21:45:14 <mroman> I hardly beleive one could live in switzerland with 1$ a day
21:45:28 <pikhq> CONFOEDERATIO HELVETICA methinks
21:45:35 <mroman> 1$ is already pretty close to what you pay to use public toilets
21:46:00 <Bike> i thought paying for toilets was something that only happened at gas stations and Rollercoaster Tycoon.
21:46:21 <pikhq> Free toilets are mostly a thing in the US.
21:46:29 <kmc> pay toilets are banned in much of the US or something, and so there just aren't enough public toilets :/
21:46:37 <mroman> Bike: there are mostly two kinds of toilets
21:46:39 <kmc> SF has some free ones, though
21:46:40 <Koen_> you US people are all communists pikhq!
21:46:51 <mroman> you can pee for free using the "pissoir"
21:46:52 <pikhq> Thanks to the Committee to End Pay Toilets in America.
21:46:58 <mroman> or you have to pay for either
21:47:25 <Bike> i can pee for free with a brick wall thank you very much
21:47:44 <Bike> well i can pee on the cop too. it works out.
21:48:00 <mroman> but then you can't live for 1$ a day :)
21:48:11 <Bike> i dunno, how much does jail cost
21:48:25 <Bike> problem solved.
21:48:39 <mroman> unless there is a fine
21:48:48 <mroman> but there's no "get free on caution"
21:49:12 <mroman> that's bail in english
21:49:12 <kmc> in amsterdam i saw a clever thing which is like a single large piece of plastic shaped into four urinals
21:50:10 <mroman> for some things you can choose although
21:50:15 <mroman> either pay the fine or go to jail
21:50:22 <mroman> obviously they want you to pay the fine
21:50:31 <mroman> because jail would be cheaper for you than paying the fine
21:50:40 <mroman> so less money for them
21:51:52 <mroman> and I'm pretty certain the regular jail in switzerland is pretty neat
21:52:07 <mroman> compared to us jails in television
21:52:43 <mroman> where you get beaten up twice a day
21:59:39 <mroman> I thought jail was just slang for prison
22:00:46 <doesthiswork> http://www.diffen.com/difference/Jail_vs_Prison
22:03:09 <mroman> puh. I hope my laptop can survive two more weeks
22:03:15 <mroman> until my new one arrives.
22:03:51 <mroman> I'd be pretty screwed if it didn't.
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22:08:37 <mroman> No I know why people tend to write
22:08:47 <mroman> instead of int main ( ...)
22:09:01 <mroman> it produces more lines of code .
22:09:54 <mroman> you can even stretch that to
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22:10:59 <mroman> I've seen code like that
22:11:03 <FireFly> mroman: I think the serious reason for "type\n name(...)" is that it allows for easier grepping of the function definition
22:11:47 <mroman> because you would grep for "\n name"?
22:12:01 <mroman> so it doesn't report calls to that function?
22:12:02 <kmc> one thing I like about Rust syntax is that you can find the definition of foo by grepping for 'fn foo'
22:12:16 <mroman> That's actually not a bad idea
22:12:32 <mroman> I usually grep for name(type
22:12:42 <mroman> If I can remember the first type of the function
22:12:51 <mroman> (the type of the first argument)
22:12:59 <FireFly> ...that wouldn't work in codebases using K&R-C function declaration, though
22:13:03 * kmc realizes just now that C function declaration syntax is another example of declaration-follows-use
22:13:11 <FireFly> (which vim's code base does, btw)
22:13:37 <mroman> you mean the prototype?
22:13:39 <FireFly> Because apparently it compiles on some platforms that don't have any ANSI C compiler
22:13:59 <FireFly> I mean int foo(x,y) { int x; int y }; { ... }
22:14:10 <doesthiswork> wouldn't the textually first result either be the prototype or the function definition? and if it's the prototype you now know the return type
22:14:13 <fizzie> FireFly: foo(x, y) int x, y; { ... }
22:14:14 <Bike> what's declaration-folllows-use
22:14:32 <kmc> Bike: a principle of C syntax
22:14:34 <mroman> Is that allowed in c89?
22:14:35 <fizzie> FireFly: Implicit int goes "well" with K&R declarations.
22:14:41 <fizzie> mroman: It's even allowed in C11.
22:14:48 <olsner> Bike: it's that thing where declaration follows use
22:14:50 <kmc> you write "int *p" to declare that *p is an int
22:14:50 <fizzie> mroman: (Though there's a note about it being obsolete.)
22:15:20 <kmc> or "int f(x)" to declare that f(x) is an int
22:15:48 <FireFly> I've kinda grown to like int *p :|
22:15:50 <mroman> int *p looks like it's not a pointer
22:16:00 <fizzie> mroman: "int* p, q" and so on.
22:16:07 <olsner> either int* p or int *p is fine, but "int * p" is clearly wrong
22:16:23 <mroman> olsner: morally wrong?
22:16:38 <Bike> doctrinally wrong
22:16:51 <Bike> kentuckily wrong
22:16:56 <fizzie> "The use of function definitions with separate parameter identifier and declaration lists (not prototype-format parameter type and identifier declarators) is an obsolescent feature." (C11 "future language directions". So maybe it'll be finally dropped in, say, C43 or thereabouts.)
22:17:23 <mroman> I'm gonna use char * * argv from now on
22:17:36 <fizzie> "char * foo", the product of 'char' and 'foo'.
22:18:07 <mroman> char* *argv sounds like a reasonable compromise between int* p and int *p
22:18:29 <fizzie> char**argv -- if you don't have whitespace, you don't have to worry about whitespace placement.
22:18:31 <kmc> it's not a *good* syntactic principle but it has a certain consistency to it
22:18:42 <olsner> hmm, char* *argv does make some sense though, reads as a pointer to char*
22:18:51 <kmc> btw, is there a good reason to prefer one of char **argv or char *argv[]?
22:19:23 <fizzie> There's some argument to be made for the general badness of the array-that's-really-a-pointer syntax of parameter declarations.
22:19:30 <fizzie> You could extend a preference for char ** from there.
22:22:01 <mroman> I'm lucky the language I recently invented is relatively typeless
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22:25:43 <kmc> the rust type syntax has some weird corners
22:25:55 <kmc> you can put trait bounds on the free variables of a closure, for example
22:27:39 <mroman> types take away my freedom :)
22:28:28 <mroman> compilers keep telling me "but that's undefined behaviour?" and I just want to say "well.. screw you. I know my hardware better than you"
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22:29:01 <Bike> freeom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom from want, freedom from types
22:29:23 <kmc> that's not how undefined behavior works
22:29:33 <kmc> and no, you don't ;)
22:30:28 <doesthiswork> take any language and add types, and it becomes at least twice as esoteric
22:30:45 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/va/rlmmu_simple.html <- now it looks like that
22:31:07 <Bike> i'm considering writing assembly for something i wrote the other day, but that's so annoying. the question is whether dozens of movs are more annoying
22:32:23 <Bike> "this is just bit bashing", i think, naively
22:36:57 <fizzie> Fiora: Highlight on "bit"?
22:37:26 <nooodl> that sounds like it'd be a bit annoying
22:37:31 <nooodl> i bet it's on "assembly"!
22:38:08 <olsner> or maybe just manually watching the channel waiting for someone to say something interesting
22:38:15 <Fiora> I... didn't have a highlight I just um happened to look in at the right time
22:39:18 <Bike> the loop is like... (m & p[t[c]]) << 1 for increasing c
22:39:45 <Fiora> Bike: maybe like, pastebin it?
22:40:45 <Bike> well i guess a disassembly of a closure function is appropriately esoteric.
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22:46:51 <nooodl> i dunno anything about assembly but that sounds like any compiler'd be good at it
22:47:24 <mroman> mine would use 1k of stack for m & p[t[c]] << 1
22:47:49 <Fiora> Bike: like, what does the code do with each bit?
22:47:51 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/V6A4Bqdg fear
22:48:17 <fizzie> "Pastebin.com is under heavy load right now :("
22:48:31 <fizzie> On the third hand, well, a cat.
22:48:48 <kmc> on the gripping hand
22:48:55 <Bike> wait how many hands do you have exactly??
22:49:02 <fizzie> fungot: How many hands did I have again?
22:49:02 <fungot> fizzie: i though i heard it made one that strong yet?
22:49:14 <fizzie> fungot: So one strong hand and...?
22:49:15 <fungot> fizzie: ( but seriously, how is call/ cc
22:49:26 <Bike> one strong hand and one time travel hand
22:49:37 <nooodl> how IS call/cc. haven't heard from it in a while
22:50:05 <Fiora> Bike: is there, like, um, a C equivalent or something ?@_@
22:51:36 <Bike> does C << just discard any bits that fall off?
22:51:52 <fizzie> Bike: If it's an unsigned variable, yes.
22:53:35 <olsner> if it's signed I believe the behavior is undefined
22:54:03 <fizzie> If it's signed, then << K is defined if the value -- let's call it X -- is initially nonnegative, and if X*2^K is representable in the result type.
22:54:03 <Bike> for (i = 0; i < text_len; ++i) { partial_matches = (partial_matches & pattern[text[c]]) << 1; result[c] = partial_matches & (1 << pattern_len); } or something like that. except result should be a bit vector and that shoul set a bit based on the truth value i'm bad at c
22:54:16 <fizzie> (Which won't be the case if any bits were to fall off.)
22:54:20 <Bike> for (c = 0 ...) wow go me
22:55:39 <Fiora> what is partial_matches and what is pattern[]? are they like, both bit vectors?
22:55:50 <Fiora> erm, is partial_matches a boolean, I mean?
22:56:11 <fizzie> Based on that other expression, probably not.
22:56:13 <Bike> partial_matches is a bit vector, pattern is a vector of bit vectors.
22:56:29 <Fiora> a vector of bit vectors, okay
22:56:34 <Fiora> and um I guess they both fit in 32-bit or something?
22:57:46 <Fiora> so pattern[text[c]] is the pattern with a certain... character, I guess?
22:57:55 <nooodl> do you mean something like, result |= partial_matches & (1 << pattern_len);
22:58:59 <Bike> Fiora: yeah, pattern is indexed by a character.
22:59:13 <Bike> or was that a pun if so: nice on making it obvious it was a pun but not obvious what the joke is
22:59:25 <Fiora> oh no, it wasn't a pun?
23:00:00 <Bike> i might as well just explain the algorithm.
23:00:24 <Bike> so, you have a "pattern" that you want to search for in a "text". they're both just strings.
23:01:17 <Bike> to prepare for search with a given pattern, first you pick an alphabet, which is just a mapping from characters to nonnegative integers. (obviously this is a bit redundant in C, but if you're searching with DNA sequences or something you can save memory by shrinking the alphabet)
23:01:57 <Bike> then you encode the pattern as a vector of bit vectors. for each character there's a bit vector where each element is 1 if that's the character at that position in the pattern.
23:02:45 <Bike> like if your alphabet is just 0 and 1, and you're searching for "010101", pattern would look like {{101010},{010101}}
23:03:14 <Bike> well that's the relevant part of the algorithm, anyway.
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23:09:28 <Bike> oh i mixed up a bit. partial_matches starts as 1 and the lsb should always stay set, so that goes in the loop too.
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23:10:47 <Bike> can you do shifts with a fill bit on x86?
23:16:29 <pikhq> Fiora: C equivalent of call/cc? Sure!
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23:39:55 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/02/continuations-in-c-with-fork.html
23:41:16 <fizzie> Bike: You can rotate through carry, which is kind of slightly like that.
23:42:08 <fizzie> Bike: One end of the thing you're rotating drops off and into the carry flag, while the old carry flags goes to live on as the "shifted-in" bit.
23:42:47 <Bike> so it'd be another instruction, then. might as well just OR with 1
23:43:09 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you mean by "another instruction" there.
23:43:21 <Bike> well i'd have to set the carry.
23:43:29 <Bike> every loop i mean.
23:43:44 <fizzie> Well, yes. There's no static "shift in ones" instruction, no.
23:44:30 <fizzie> Fun fact: there's an undocumented "shift left but insert 1" instruction on the Z80.
23:44:40 <kmc> hi shachaf
23:45:10 <Bike> clearly my digitial design class was useless, sigh
23:45:34 <Bike> anyway that's good news, i'll redo this to run on soviet knockoffs
23:45:51 <fizzie> (It's in the gap where there should be a "logical left shift", if you look at the opcode encodings; at one corner of the imaginary square formed by arithmetic shift left, arithmetic shift right and logical shift right.)
23:46:06 <coppro> http://anotherlook.ca/
23:46:15 <coppro> click 'another look at security definitions'
23:46:29 <shachaf> I decided not to go to the thing I was going to.
23:47:35 <Bike> Speaking Of Security, it was just revealed that news of the world illegally hacked their way to access to a voicemail left by prince harry. stuff's gettin good
23:48:20 <shachaf> so now I'm in dolores park what should i do "help"
23:48:57 <coppro> Bike: so they've definitely gone from 'unethical' to 'illegal'?
23:49:25 <kmc> i think that happened some time ago
23:49:32 <Bike> well, that's me paraphrasing, but the cases look pretty solid
23:50:21 <Bike> i'm just hoping this somehow ends with murdoch getting punched in the face.
23:50:26 <fizzie> People switch to dechaf to be less jittery, AIUI.
23:50:37 <coppro> Bike: that would be the best resolution imo
23:50:51 <shachaf> already chillaxing and also watching dogs they are cute
23:51:41 <shachaf> should i go see _Carrie (musical)_ "last day for it"
23:52:21 <olsner> fungot: do you like Carrie (musical)?
23:52:21 <fungot> olsner: " hello world" 200 times ( run the fnord! :p.
23:52:26 <Bike> only if it's billed as such
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00:03:21 <HackEgo> [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
00:05:41 <kmc> dogs are great
00:05:48 <kmc> that one dog tried to play mölkky with us
00:05:51 <kmc> but he didn't know the rules
00:06:08 <kmc> maybe we should have switched to playing dog-mölkky
00:06:10 <olsner> is mölkky that stick-throwing game?
00:06:35 <olsner> dogs like stick-throwing games, I think
00:09:06 <shachaf> dölkky sounds like a more fun game anyway
00:09:26 <oerjan> what ghci has instance Monad (-> x) without doing any imports?
00:09:37 <kmc> no ghci at all
00:09:55 <oerjan> yes that's what i have
00:10:51 <shachaf> kmc: we should play mölkky again sometime
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00:12:46 <shachaf> it's trouble to carry around, though :'(
00:13:02 <kmc> probably Pointless Topology should buy one
00:13:36 <kmc> or I could make one
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00:17:09 <shachaf> maybe we can play when you're in mv
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00:22:25 <Bike> Fiora: https://twitter.com/mc_hankins/status/396757476558643200/photo/1
00:22:59 <fizzie> There was an article in some local paper on how mölkky is becoming more popular abroad, and that already only a small fraction of the sets are sold in Finland.
00:23:20 <kmc> SF 22 BS SS SB MB BW BG SM HP HD BL SQ RC AT MP PA CA SA MV SV LW SC CP SJ TM CL BH MH ST GR
00:24:58 <kmc> only a fraction of all people are born in finland
00:25:47 <fizzie> Yes, but it's a game with such a Finnish name.
00:26:55 <fizzie> And there's a number of "throw things at other things" games already, wouldn't think people need to import one from here.
00:27:31 <fizzie> http://yle.fi/uutiset/molkyn_menestys_antaa_toita_sadoille/6911296 there
00:28:31 <olsner> "In little endian is every thing we load into memory is in reverse order ?" :(
00:29:25 <shachaf> fizzie: don't worry, we weren't pronouncing it correctly
00:35:22 <Bike> https://twitter.com/ibogost/status/396797423714336768/photo/1/large an interesting spin on "lol vintage internet"
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00:41:17 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131103-twitter.jpg <- a twitter picture
00:43:46 <oerjan> shachaf: can newtype F x y a = F ((a -> x) -> y) be Distributable for any x, y
00:44:32 <oerjan> my brain tried to find a general instance but i think it short-circuited
00:44:58 <oerjan> (i assume there shouldn't be one)
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01:18:59 <zzo38> People complain yesterday about "int* p" and "int *p" and "char* *argv" in C codes. I just write "int*p" because the other way both have problems
01:21:04 <kmc> what are the haps my friend
01:22:21 <zzo38> I was designing a computer game in QBASIC called "Savant's Maze" (on a different computer with DOS, not this one). It is roguelike game and you start in the basement and have to reach the top floor.
01:26:03 <zzo38> So far I have line of view made up, message buffer, save games, movement, and there is some different terrains including windows, water, fog (you cannot see very well), broken glass, traps, stairs, etc.
01:26:08 <zzo38> Maybe you have some idea too.
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01:32:55 <oerjan> @ask bike <Bike> i'm just hoping this somehow ends with murdoch getting punched in the face. <-- by prince harry?
01:33:25 <zzo38> In here the daylight saving time is stopped tomorrow.
01:34:10 <oerjan> both north america and europe seem to change on nights before sundays, although different ones.
01:36:14 <zzo38> No, it is Sunday, just early before most people would wake up.
01:36:35 <zzo38> I just stay awake until that time, or else sleep and wake up before that time, to change the clocks that won't automatically change.
01:41:58 <Koen_> if you stay up all night to implement daylight saving time... I think something's wrong :)
01:43:25 <zzo38> Yes, daylight saving time is bad.
01:49:24 <Fiora> Bike: omg, "region of declining hope"
01:57:41 <oerjan> zzo38: i think Koen_ is implying that you're working too hard to keep the clocks correct if you are waking up for the purpose of changing them.
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01:58:10 <Koen_> I'm not implying, I'm demonstrating
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02:03:10 <tswett_q> Hi guys. So this is the nick I'm going to use when I'm not here.
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02:26:34 <Sgeo> I use this nick when I'm not at the computer. I also use this nick when I am at the computer.
02:26:46 <kmc> pair o' docs
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02:29:23 <oerjan> he is a disgruntled ophthalmologist with ironically horrible eyesight. she is a brain surgeon with a dark secret. they fight crime!
02:42:31 <Gregor> That's... not ironic in the slightest.
02:42:40 <kmc> ꙮpthalmꙮlogist
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02:55:45 <oerjan> he is a melancholic polycythemia researcher with ironically low hemoglobin values. she is a cardiologist with a heart of gold. they fight crime!
03:02:22 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
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03:38:26 <shachaf> oerjan: You mean instance Distributive (F x y)?
03:40:43 <shachaf> I agree there shouldn't be one.
03:40:46 <oerjan> or possibly instance Distributive (F X Y) for X and Y some specific types
03:41:21 <shachaf> Well, maybe X=Y=() or something.
03:41:47 <oerjan> i was thinking about this to see if there were any counterexamples to your Distributive always has Representable theory
03:42:17 <shachaf> It's edwardk's theory, you should ask him in #-lens.
03:59:50 <shachaf> -lens is the channel to be in, I hear.
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04:28:00 <Bike> fiora: «We tried EVERYTHING: "just failed to reach statistical significance after log transformation (p<0.07) or non-parametric analysis (p<0.06)» the saga continues
04:28:18 <Bike> oerjan: optional
04:30:43 <Bike> the notes the notes the notes
04:31:03 * oerjan doesn't remember what this is about.
04:32:02 <oerjan> I made the mistake of upgrading to Windows 8.1. There's apparently a bug that means you can no longer turn off spelling autocorrection.
04:32:42 <Bike> "not very definitely significant from the statistical point of view (p=0.08)" i'm never gonna get tired of this
04:41:14 <oerjan> Fortunately it doesn't affect pasting from gvim.
04:42:13 <oerjan> Still has all the red squiggles though.
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05:38:22 <zzo38> Will they fix that buf?
05:38:31 <zzo38> Do you know how to workaround somehow?
05:39:11 <oerjan> well my current workaround is to write in vim and paste.
05:39:34 <zzo38> But is there some workaround involving editing the registry or the files dealing with spelling corrections?
05:40:15 <oerjan> i think windows 8.1 is too new for the fixes to have shown up.
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05:40:51 <oerjan> the thing is, in the settings it _looks_ like the setting has been changed, but programs (apps and IE) ignore it.
05:41:52 <zzo38> Did you look in the registry?
05:41:53 <oerjan> there was an old method someone gave for disabling it in 8.0, which involved renaming the dll's. although i also saw a comment that this slowed things down.
05:42:23 <oerjan> no i haven't. i'm not going to mess with things without guidance.
05:42:41 <zzo38> Looking in it, without changing it, shouldn't damage it.
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05:58:25 <kmc> so exponent
05:59:52 <Bike> different people i know get into memes at different times and it freaks me out, man
06:00:06 <kmc> Bike: pretty sure I'm on the trailing edge
06:00:15 <Bike> for this one yeah
06:00:22 <Bike> i mean hey that's respectable
06:02:53 <kmc> is it though
06:03:25 <Bike> well. no. it's not. i don't respect it
06:03:33 <Bike> i respect no meme!
06:22:25 <oerjan> some day we're going to hit a word in this way that's a grievous insult in hebrew.
06:26:46 <shachaf> many doge at the park today
06:27:20 <shachaf> did they all have internal monologue in broken english and rainbow comic sans
06:27:20 <kmc> did you play with a doge
06:27:51 <shachaf> and no one was playing mölkky
06:28:37 <shachaf> though people were throwing balls
06:29:06 <shachaf> dogs become unreasonably enthusiastic and excited about balls being thrown
06:29:14 <shachaf> have i even ever been that excited about anything
06:29:26 <shachaf> i am a failure compared to doge :'(
06:30:37 <shachaf> http://web.stagram.com/p/521355034383093782_31874355
06:30:44 <oerjan> no mölkky today, my doge has run away...
06:30:53 <shachaf> looks like a recipe for disaster imo
06:31:24 <HackEgo> This google api no longer exists.
06:32:15 <oerjan> ask tswett_q i think he was all about finnish dogs once
06:35:06 <shachaf> perhaps there are no finnish dogs
06:35:18 <oerjan> if you slur shachaf just enough it can sound like en:shut up or perhaps even no:kjeften which basically means the same thing.
06:35:23 <shachaf> that would explain the invention of mölkky
06:36:23 <oerjan> shachaf: well that stagram link _did_ seem to claim their existence.
06:36:45 <shachaf> maybe they were imported later
06:37:05 <oerjan> (i have been pointed out that orja is finnish for slave, although i don't think they use that as a slur much)
06:38:29 <zzo38> Do you know "Psychological JuJitsu" card game? I have implemented it in ifMUD.
06:39:36 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps a dog exists but is unique
06:40:10 <oerjan> shachaf: the link had two.
06:40:40 <shachaf> here's a search result for «mölkky koira»: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdMZ7N1U7I
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06:47:44 <oerjan> that had a severe shortage of mölkky, and i didn't pay attention to whether where any dogs since koira was clearly part of the band name.
06:48:20 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karri_Koira
06:48:47 <kmc> "Heini Strand of Rumba gave the album four out of five stars saying that the album is great material for making out"
06:49:45 <shachaf> kmc: that is, after all, the primary purpose of an album
06:49:57 <shachaf> what was the other star for
06:52:02 <oerjan> the second star should have been *-where
06:53:05 <oerjan> or it could have been the more elegant, yet even more confusing *-+
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07:19:39 <Bike> the mozilla developer guide thing is super helpful
07:19:53 <Bike> <script type="text/javascript"><!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--Blabla.extend(MyFramework.settings, { "basePath": "/" });//--><!]]></script>
07:19:56 <Bike> fucking art imo
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07:24:11 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think about making out
07:25:31 <Bike> "JavaScript event handling is single-threaded, so handlers are executed sequentially." is this like, actually true
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07:26:04 <kmc> in existing browser engines all JavaScript (including iframes) runs in a single thread and alternates with layout work on the same thread
07:26:11 <kmc> (all for a single tab, I mean)
07:26:12 <kmc> which is terrible
07:26:16 <Bike> well i mean, is it required
07:26:20 <kmc> and that's something we're trying to fix with Servo
07:26:29 <kmc> but there are limits to what we can do because it's part of the platform spec
07:26:55 <kmc> Bike: JS doesn't have any kind of thread synchronization primitives built in, so if you allowed concurrent event handlers, there would be no way to make them race-free
07:27:22 <kmc> but anyway there's 15 years worth of legacy javascript code which assumes no concurrency
07:27:25 <Bike> ah, hm... still that seems like a limitation to me. maybe i'm being naive
07:27:44 <kmc> you can now do concurrency in a limited sense, with web workers, but they can't touch the DOM or handle events
07:28:09 <Bike> "Please recall that HTML-tag attribute names are case-insensitive, so oNcLiCk will work same as onClick or onclick" a lot of this advice seems like stuff i should be pretty skeptical of. just like every other time i've learned a programming language :/
07:30:41 <shachaf> kmc: no particular opinions
07:38:24 * kmc usually doesn't have musical accompanyment, though
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07:44:40 <Bike> browsers are so amazing. it almost seems like a shame to have them so internet-oriented
07:45:30 <shachaf> imo browsers should be oriented to writing browsers
07:45:41 <shachaf> "the primary activity browser writers care about"
07:45:50 <kmc> imo write your own browser in HTML/CSS/JS
07:46:03 <Bike> market it as 'web compatible'
07:46:18 <kmc> also <!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--…//--><!]]> really?
07:46:31 <Bike> yeah. (as an example of what not to do)
07:46:36 <kmc> my six language polyglot is more reasonable than that
07:46:50 <Bike> of course as soon as i looked at a less reputable tutorial's source it had exactly that -_-
07:48:21 <shachaf> Bike: wasn't that the only backwards compatible way of doing it
07:48:38 <shachaf> (i think maybe it needs to be on three lines or something, i don't know
07:48:52 <Bike> yeah i didn't feel like doing that.
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08:13:51 <mroman> Bike: isn't it case insensitive in HTML4
08:14:11 <mroman> or it's case insensitive in some browsers but not in others
08:15:12 <Bike> i'd liketo say it's the former but it's probably the latter too somehow
08:15:41 <mroman> google research is useless
08:15:45 <Bike> looks like html is case insensitive but xml is not.
08:15:54 <mroman> everyone seems to have a different opinion about the case sensitivity of attributes
08:16:05 <Bike> well i was looking at w3, so.
08:16:18 <Bike> anyway i was starting from 'oNcLiCk is a really shitty name'
08:16:22 <mroman> onClick works in HTML4 but not in XHtml
08:17:23 <mroman> is called when the user licks the touchscreen
08:30:43 <zzo38> Is there some simple way to wire something to composite video signals to make them appear in grayscale?
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09:19:34 <fizzie> Web Workers and Canvas Proxies.
09:26:47 <mroman> are there approaches on how to compile low-level language to CIL/CLR?
09:27:08 <mroman> specifically the whole pointery stuff
09:28:51 <fizzie> One honking byte[] and pointers as indices to that.
09:29:06 <fizzie> (That's what Emscripten does, to compile C to JS.)
09:29:41 <mroman> but that probably does not work for function pointers?
09:31:00 <mroman> you can probably special treat function pointers
09:31:18 <mroman> unless you use (void*)
09:31:29 <mroman> which would loose the information that it was a function pointer
09:31:48 <fizzie> Speaking from a C perspective, if they're still indices to something, it wouldn't really matter.
09:32:05 <fizzie> You'd need to convert it back to a function pointer for calling, at which point it'd get back that information.
09:33:34 <mroman> but you can't call javascript functions through an adress?
09:33:54 <fizzie> You'd have a table of functions. Function pointers would be indices to that.
09:35:11 <mroman> same for variables probably
09:35:24 <mroman> i.e the address of a local variable
09:35:33 <fizzie> Anyway, if you compiled to a single Java bytecode method, you could use actual opcode offsets -- but that approach has at least two major problems: there's a 64k size limit for a function, and the bytecode verifier is going to insist on all kinds of things hard to satisfy. (I looked at this a bit for a Befunge-to-JVM thing where I wanted to use the native JVM stack as the Befunge stack.)
09:36:32 <mroman> my source language requires you to be able to goto from one function in another
09:36:43 <mroman> which is not really easy to translate to other languages :)
09:36:51 <mroman> because most don't allow that.
09:39:15 <fizzie> It might "work" for the single-JVM-method case (since you can do local jumps there), assuming you can satisfy the verifier, which might be tricky. (It e.g. insists that all possible paths to reach a particular instruction must provably have the same stack effect in terms of number of pushes and pops, which really didn't work for the Befunge case.)
09:40:01 <fizzie> (And then there's that size limit.)
09:40:49 <myname> befunge to jvm sounds like an awesome idea
09:41:30 <fizzie> I kind of abandoned the idea when it turned out the native stack wouldn't work, because using a separate object for the stack sounded so lame.
09:46:45 <mroman> I could disect stuff into functions
09:46:54 <mroman> i.e a label would be another function
09:47:08 <mroman> like int main() { .... foo: ... } would split into
09:55:07 <fizzie> Assuming arbitrary jumps, then you'll need some kind of a thing to handle the otherwise-growing stack.
09:55:17 <fizzie> (There's no tail calls in the JVM.)
09:56:41 <fizzie> There's always trampolining, of course.
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10:20:43 <mroman> jumping to another function is a really bad idea anyway
10:21:18 <mroman> the only reason it is even possible is because I did not want to introduce scoping rules
10:21:23 <mroman> so labels are globally visible
10:21:43 <mroman> but I just might say jumping into another function is copmiler dependant behaviour
10:23:16 <mroman> because that's what it actually is anyway
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12:04:20 <mroman> when exactly is extern needed for C functions
12:04:35 <mroman> you can refer to C functions in other compilation units without extern
12:04:53 <mroman> i.e -c foo.o ... -c foo1.o and just link it together
12:11:45 <fizzie> It's the default for functions.
12:12:10 <fizzie> "If a declaration of an identifier for a function has no storage-class specifier, its linkage is determined exactly as if it were declared with the storage-class specifier extern."
12:12:39 <fizzie> You do need it for declarations of objects in header files, because otherwise those turn into definitions for each translation unit, and then you've got multiple copies and the linker will complain.
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12:19:40 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't notice the question was specifically for functions. I guess "never", then, since having no storage class specifiers is entirely equivalent.
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12:40:08 <mroman> fizzie: I'm also guessing "never"
12:40:25 <mroman> but I'm not 100% sure there is an edgecase where extern is needed for functions too
12:41:30 <fizzie> I don't think there were any qualifiers for the statement I quoted.
12:46:53 <FireFly> fizzie: wouldn't modifiability of fungespace be a bigger problem for a befunge-to-JVM compiler?
12:48:56 <fizzie> FireFly: Maybe, but that's a problem for a befunge-to-anything compiler and not for a befunge-to-JVM compiler in particular.
12:49:18 <mroman> or where the code is located
12:49:44 <fizzie> (It's possible I was thinking of writing an interpreter, anyway. I don't remember the details, just that I wanted JVM stack == befunge stack.)
12:50:10 <mroman> can't you compile each instruction as a fixed block of code
12:50:14 <mroman> and then replace those blocks
12:50:36 <fizzie> That's essentially a threaded-code interpreter.
12:50:39 <mroman> i.e transfroming the 2D space into a 1D space
12:51:02 <mroman> should be fairly possible
12:51:08 <mroman> maybe a bit inefficient
12:51:17 <myname> mroman: and if you put after the end of a line?
12:52:53 <fizzie> Anyway, you can certainly JIT befunge.
12:53:20 <fizzie> It's just slightly tricky tracking what all needs to be invalidated when the fungespace changes.
12:54:05 <fizzie> (If you treat each instruction as a single block, so that they're easy to replace, you can't e.g. constant-fold across the blocks, which makes the whole act of "compiling" it a bit pointless.)
12:55:52 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have any self-modifying code in you at all, anyway?
12:55:52 <fungot> fizzie: sarahbot, yow")" to make writing a bf interp
12:56:05 <fizzie> (Spoiler: not really, discounting things like ^reload.)
12:56:39 <fizzie> I have somewhere an ahead-of-time Befunge(-to-LLVM, I think) compiler that's complete enough to compile and run fungot.
12:56:39 <fungot> fizzie: if they meant it seriously, though. ( foo 1) to have x in the second
12:57:13 <fizzie> (Doesn't do any tracking of fungespace modification.)
12:58:41 <fizzie> Though self-modification is not the only problem for static compilation. You can't necessarily tell the code flow in advance, either, if there's something like &&x in the code.
12:59:02 <fizzie> (That's "read two integers from standard input and set the IP delta to that vector".)
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14:09:49 <Koen_> so I'm trying to compile Chris Pressey's mascarpone interpreter in haskell, using ghc. the error message is " Could not find module `System' It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'.". should I explicitely tell ghc how to include this System module?
14:11:13 <Koen_> nope, doesn't work either
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16:09:06 <ais523> elliott: the only common thread I can see in our latest spambot rash, apart from the content of their posts (which I can't block unless abusefilter starts working again), is that they all claim to be using IE6
16:09:09 <ais523> can we just block IE6? :)
16:09:48 <Bike> jesus, do people still use ie6
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16:10:40 <mroman> fizzie: who needs constant folding anyway
16:10:47 <mroman> my compiler produces for 3 + 5
16:11:10 <mroman> load32 r0, 3; push r0; load32 r0, 5; push r0; pop r1; pop r0; add r0, r0, r1; push r0;
16:11:15 <ais523> Bike: I don't know if the spambots are actually using IE6, or just pretending
16:11:23 <ais523> based on the homogeneity of the user agent, I'd say it's faked
16:12:04 <zzo38> ais523: Then perhaps program it so that if the user agent string specifies IE6, it enables things that won't work if it isn't really IE6
16:12:31 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, interesting, but also probably quite timeconsuming
16:12:59 <zzo38> mroman: What compiler is that? What programming language?
16:17:49 <mroman> zzo38: My pre-bachelor thesis is an developping an imaginary computer architecture
16:18:00 <mroman> and an emulator for that architecture
16:18:26 <mroman> but I came to the point where I did not want to write a line of assembler code anymore
16:18:32 <mroman> so I started writing a complire
16:18:39 <mroman> for my simple language :)
16:18:49 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/va/rlmmu_simple.html <- that language
16:18:51 <zzo38> And it looks like not a very good compiler
16:19:30 <mroman> it's a working compiler
16:19:40 <mroman> it produces code for a stack machine with two registers
16:19:48 <mroman> which my architecture is totally not
16:19:55 <mroman> my arch has 16 registers :)
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16:20:39 <zzo38> Even for a machine with only two registers it looks like a bad code.
16:20:54 <mroman> But I don't have the time to write a sophisticated compiler and emulator
16:21:02 <mroman> so one of them is just quick'n'dirty
16:21:06 <zzo38> Not having constant folding isn't the only problem.
16:21:07 <mroman> it produces working code
16:21:11 <mroman> that's good enough for me
16:21:21 <mroman> it even produces push r0; pop r0; blocks
16:21:32 <mroman> and push r0; pop r1; can be optimizied to mov r1, r0;
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16:22:06 <mroman> zzo38: You are very welcome to write a better compiler
16:22:09 <mroman> you can even target x86
16:22:18 <mroman> That's what I plan to do anyway
16:22:29 <mroman> write an x86 codegen for it
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16:55:20 <zzo38> I wanted to make up some simple computer architecture which is mostly like other ones that GCC already support and can be programmed in a FPGA, and modified to the application in use
16:55:25 <mroman> zzo38: Writing a gcc backend would have been too much work
16:56:05 <zzo38> mroman: Yes, I know that is why I wanted to make one up that GCC can already compile into
16:57:52 <zzo38> I was thinking of ARM2 but maybe there is something better
17:00:17 <zzo38> Many implementations seem to be optimized and might make it difficult to predict how many clock cycles some sequence of instructions requires. If removing such thing would make it too slow, one work-around is to add an instruction to wait until a number of clock cycles have passed since the previous marker.
17:07:20 <mroman> that sound's like a reasonable mnemonic
17:07:40 <zzo38> Such thing looks like long to me
17:07:57 <mroman> ULESSTHANOREQUAL foo, bar
17:08:00 <ais523> Verity uses <= for unsigned less-than-or-equal-to, +<= for the signed version
17:08:02 <mroman> that just looks crazy as fuck
17:08:12 <ais523> but then, its operators are made out of sequences of punctuation marks
17:08:49 <zzo38> Not bad, having a separate unsigned and signed operators, if you aren't specifying by the type like how C does.
17:09:16 <ais523> zzo38: I decided separate signed and unsigned operators made more sense than separate signed and unsigned types
17:09:42 <zzo38> ais523: Ah, OK. What is that though?
17:10:08 <ais523> zzo38: some operators like + and - use two's complement in Verity so it doesn't matter whether they're signed or unsigned
17:10:13 <ais523> and it doesn't have division
17:10:26 <zzo38> Yes, that makes sense for + and -
17:10:37 <ais523> for relational operators I have separate signed/unsigned values
17:10:49 <ais523> mroman: mostly non-eso language I was paid to work on for my job
17:10:52 <ais523> as in, I was paid to invent it
17:11:02 <ais523> http://www.veritygos.org/
17:11:12 <mroman> I went for seperate signed/unsigned operators too
17:11:18 <zzo38> Why did you need to invent it?
17:11:21 <mroman> since I don't have the type system
17:11:29 <mroman> to distinguish it else
17:12:05 <mroman> http://www.veritygos.org/documentation
17:12:17 <mroman> too lazy for real html ;P?
17:12:22 <ais523> zzo38: because there were no variants of Algol 60 specialised for reconfigurable hardware, oddly enough
17:12:29 <ais523> mroman: I'm not responsible for the website
17:12:47 <ais523> they asked for documentation in plaintext
17:12:53 <ais523> I wrote it in markdown, on the basis that it looks much the same
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17:13:10 <ais523> IMO the only good use for markdown is to write markup in a way that looks like plaintext
17:13:31 <zzo38> ais523: That is not bad, now you can load it in any program even if not having web browser, but you can also convert it to HTML if you prefer.
17:14:21 <mroman> can you dumb it down for me
17:14:41 <mroman> a language that describes hardware?
17:14:58 <mroman> or what do you mean by hardware synthesis?
17:15:32 <ais523> mroman: it's a language designed to be similar to the sort of functional languages people normally use to program software, but it's restricted such that it compiles into hardware well
17:15:51 <ais523> whereas most hardware development's done using languages like VHDL that are very unfamiliar
17:16:04 <zzo38> Ah, that seems like a proper reason to me.
17:16:41 <zzo38> (I still think that isn't the best way to program hardware, but it could be helpful if you want to write an emulator for the hardware, maybe)
17:18:02 <zzo38> There are a lot of other hardware programming languages too although I don't really think any of them are perfect so I tried to make up a new one, too
17:18:58 <mroman> you mean like brainfuck and verilog?
17:19:29 <zzo38> Brainfuck isn't hardware programming language. There is Verilog, there is also VHDL, and several others (see Wikipedia), and I partially made up a documentation for my own.
17:19:59 <mroman> let me grab me brainfuck 2 vhdl thingy
17:20:02 <mroman> if I can still find it
17:21:21 <zzo38> My own hardware programming language is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/hwpl.txt
17:21:36 <zzo38> There are still some things missing; if you know about hardware programming maybe you can help to fix it?
17:24:05 <mroman> that's as much as there is :)
17:24:31 <zzo38> Do you know anything about designing it with discrete logic components?
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17:24:51 <zzo38> I know some things about Verilog and find some things it has are not very good for hardware design
17:24:56 <mroman> You mean like FlipFlops, XOR, AND Gates etc?
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17:26:16 <mroman> That's what I'd actually expect from a VHDL/verilog programmer
17:26:26 <mroman> that he knows how he could synthesize basic vhdl programm by hand
17:26:48 <zzo38> Do you understand this document of HWPL?
17:27:27 <myname> someone should make a prolog2vhdl compiler
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17:28:10 <mroman> zzo38: I haven't completely read it yet
17:28:14 <mroman> but from fastly reading through it
17:28:22 <mroman> looks understandable :)
17:28:34 <zzo38> Do you notice anything that might be wrong with it?
17:29:56 <mroman> what do you understand under "running result"?
17:30:25 <zzo38> Can you be specific?
17:31:06 <zzo38> In a function, the "running result" is initially an empty vector.
17:32:30 <zzo38> I am not sure how I should make that more clear in the documentation.
17:33:45 <zzo38> Is there anything that could be improved, is missing, etc?
17:34:35 <mroman> This HWPL is not like VHDL, right?
17:34:48 <mroman> You don't program the hardware on the level like you do in VHDL?
17:34:55 <zzo38> Correct, it isn't VHDL or Verilog or whatever.
17:35:11 <zzo38> I don't actually know much of VHDL, but I know some things about Verilog.
17:35:20 <mroman> So you build components and wire them together
17:35:26 <mroman> and wait for raising edges etc
17:35:29 <zzo38> There are some similarities to Verilog but not quite.
17:35:58 <mroman> although you do have a DELAY function
17:36:11 <zzo38> In HWPL you would write what is connected to what and what registers are updated on rising edges and so on, or write macros that will create these things for you.
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17:36:40 <zzo38> At runtime, the only type is a bit vector; other types only exist at compiletime.
17:37:32 <zzo38> FOR loops and stuff are executed at compile time; so are IF, LET, SPLIT, and so on.
17:37:54 <zzo38> (If you want run time conditions you need to use WHEN instead of IF.)
17:40:00 <mroman> I assume DELAY is only for simulation?
17:40:56 <zzo38> Unlike in Verilog, no. A hardware compiler may also move things around so that things have higher or lower delays, or provide an error message or warning message if it cannot use the given delay.
17:41:44 <mroman> I'd expect the hardware compiler to calculate timings etc
17:41:58 <mroman> I.e you obviously can't clock stuff as high as you want :)
17:42:22 <mroman> or your flipflops will get meta-stable :)
17:43:28 <zzo38> Well, yes, there is an inherent delay, but if the externally visible delay is shorter than the fastest clock speed (which might depend on the program) then it is OK anyways.
17:45:41 <zzo38> The DELAY function is provided if you want to make it slower or if you want to force certain hardware constraints such as in order to more accurately emulate other hardware, or possibly to avoid race conditions in a few cases.
17:45:42 <mroman> TRIGGER only works for rising edges
17:46:00 <zzo38> mroman: Yes. If you want falling, put ~ in front of the signal.
17:46:52 <mroman> I can use expressinos there
17:47:34 <zzo38> Expressions are allowed in most places where you can have a vector.
17:48:16 <mroman> Do I have to declare POWER and GROUND?
17:48:26 <mroman> That's usually something you don't really worry about.
17:49:02 <zzo38> No, it is usually not necessary.
17:49:29 <zzo38> (Some compilers might not even support it.)
17:49:42 <zzo38> (It is provided in case it is necessary for your design.)
17:50:06 <zzo38> I have fixed that part of the documentation now.
17:51:11 <zzo38> (One reason it might be necessary is if you are declaring an expansion cartridge pinout and the power/ground have to be in certain positions.)
17:52:24 <mroman> maybe add a CASE statement?
17:53:59 <zzo38> Maybe it might help, yes (currently there is a ROM CASE statement but not a macro CASE statement).
17:56:13 <zzo38> (It would conflict but maybe renaming the ROM CASE statement to something else might help?)
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18:01:49 <mroman> IF in VHDL afaik is sequentiel
18:02:47 <mroman> or it does not matter at least
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18:07:19 <zzo38> Well, HWPL has no such procedural blocks at run time like Verilog and VHDL have.
18:07:30 <zzo38> Everything runs in parallel.
18:07:49 <zzo38> (Macros are sequential, but they are expanded at compile time.)
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18:14:45 <zzo38> Note that something like MODULE MAIN ZZZZ1001: NOOP; is a valid (but useless) HWPL program having eight I/O pins.
18:16:17 <^v> wolfmitchell wanted to make a language that would make slapping a dick on a keyboard valid
18:16:20 <zzo38> It always outputs 1001 on the low four pins.
18:16:28 <^v> i would wonder how this would work
18:16:35 <^v> was thinking something like path
18:16:35 <zzo38> ^v: I don't know how, either.
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18:28:28 <Sgeo> My dad just told me to become a doctor and said something about a shortage of competent doctors
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18:31:18 <Sgeo> Medical doctor
18:32:19 <kmc> http://img6.joyreactor.com/pics/post/comics-married-to-the-sea-auto-221896.jpeg
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18:35:44 <Sgeo> Well, if most other doctors are less competent, and I don't pick up medical knowledge, I'm effectively trusting my life to incompetent people
18:35:56 <Sgeo> Whereas if I become a doctor, I save lives possibly including my own
18:36:29 <zzo38> If you are competent, then yes.
18:37:35 <Sgeo> I think my dad's assuming that I would be competent
18:38:13 <Slereahphone> You'd see a lot more doctors smoking medicinal joints otherwise
18:39:54 <Sgeo> But you could look at your own charts, and at loves ones' charts, and see whether doctors are treating you and your loved ones correctly
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18:42:19 <zzo38> Does their handwriting get worse too?
18:43:14 <Slereahphone> I wonder if bad handwriting is something they pick up at med school
18:43:45 <zzo38> I read somewhere that someone think everyone who writes too many things in one day will have bad handwriting
18:43:46 <kmc> I think medicine involves a lot of tricky judgement calls; there's not an obvious right answer in every situation
18:44:08 <kmc> and so second-guessing your doctor when you're emotionally close to the situation could do as much harm as good
18:44:41 <kmc> in most cases you can't just look at a chart and be like "hmm, yes, this doctor is an 8/10"
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18:45:15 <kmc> you should all read http://www.amazon.com/Better-A-Surgeons-Notes-Performance/dp/0312427654
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19:26:21 <shachaf> kmc: before or after The Illuminatus! Trilogy?
19:31:08 <fizzie> You interleave the words.
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20:13:57 <kmc> shachaf: after I expect
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20:44:20 <JM563> Well...wellcome Sporcklem
20:44:20 <Bike> `welcome JM563
20:44:25 <HackEgo> JM563: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:46:46 <JM563> Well Bike, your soul is not quiet, do you have any topic on mine?
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20:49:59 <JM372> Sorry Bike, I am new.
20:51:51 <JM372> Would you like the astrolgoy as topic?
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20:54:02 <zzo38> Sorry? What astrology?
20:54:06 <zzo38> Did you read the esolang wiki?
20:54:48 <JM372> Stellar astrology, no tropical or sideral...Stellar astrology.
20:55:54 <JM372> Okay...do you know tropical and sideral astrology?
20:55:55 <Sgeo> I vaguely remember some kind of distincting between days
20:56:07 <zzo38> Yes I do know that.
20:56:07 <HackEgo> JM372: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:56:24 <Sgeo> There's the day as in rotation of Earth, vs Sun being at the same point, due to the revolution around the sun
20:56:24 <zzo38> As far as I know tropical/sidereal just refers to how the zero longitude point is determined.
20:56:36 <Sgeo> Or am I imaginign things?
20:56:42 <Sgeo> But that's astronomy, not astrology
20:57:15 <Sgeo> Almost posited a definition of 'astrology' that would count ST:TNG as astrology
20:57:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: Are you thinking of day vs sidereal day or something?
20:57:32 <JM372> Okay Zzo...the Setellar astrology works withe the planets; and also, with some stars from the constellations.
20:57:34 <Sgeo> zzo38: I think so
20:58:14 <zzo38> JM372: Which stars? I have Astrolog installde which can calculate the positions of some stars (it can also calculate the positions of all constellations, but not all stars they include)
20:58:35 <zzo38> And you say it works with the planets and stars, but in what way? That doesn't help.
20:59:17 <JM372> Okay Zzo...www.astro.com can do so too...but the point is that you need to use in your personal astrology chart the principals stars.
20:59:35 <JM372> So you can get one close idea about your complity astrological situation.
21:00:10 <JM372> Waht is your ascending Zzo?
21:00:13 <Sgeo> Astronomy: Related to the stars and is real. Astrology: Related to the stars and is fictional
21:00:52 <zzo38> JM372: I don't really do that kind of stuff I am not so superstitious, although I know a few things about it. To know my ascending I would have to know the time of my birth, and I never really tried to figure that out.
21:01:02 <JM372> No Sego, no the Stellar Astrology...The Stellar astrology use the astronomic information too.
21:01:36 <JM372> Okay Zzo....thanks for to be honest...
21:01:53 <zzo38> I do have the horoscope chart for the current date/time/location on my screen at this time, and the list of stars it can chart.
21:02:01 <zzo38> Can you name the stars? Maybe then I know what you mean.
21:02:42 <JM372> Zzo...I will like to, but at least, I need your birt time and date to give your a clear example
21:03:13 <zzo38> Just use the current date and time. I don't know my birth time and do not want to give the date (anyways, if you want to know ascendant, location is important too).
21:04:01 <JM372> But according with your honesty you should be Virgo ascendant.
21:05:11 <zzo38> OK you can assume that if you want; like I said I don't know my birth time.
21:05:13 <JM372> Are you in USA or Ingland Zoo? Because you can get a copy of your birth certificate by Internet
21:05:58 <zzo38> Actually I think I can find my birth certificate somewhere around here, and I can then calculate it.
21:06:13 <JM372> It is okay Zzo...no problem....
21:07:30 <zzo38> Oops I forgot to disable daylight saving time in this program, now I did.
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21:07:48 <JM372> But like Sgeo said, we need to use the effects of the stars for to make a complity astrological chart.
21:08:23 <zzo38> I can easily include several stars in the chart in this program. Which stars do you mean, though?
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21:11:53 <JM383> Sorry, but I was booted
21:11:59 <zzo38> (And I live in Canada)
21:12:11 <JM383> I think I need a nickname for to work in
21:13:46 <JM383> Okay Zoo, but you seems to be a person very honest, so it could means that your ascending sign in Virgo
21:14:12 <zzo38> Yes, I said we can make that assumption if you want to. How many degrees though?
21:14:31 <JM383> Very strict person, but also honest.
21:15:09 <kmc> a good man and thorough
21:15:20 <zzo38> (Make up a number arbitrarily if you don't know; if I am to set a time of day for this chart the degrees will also be needed)
21:15:21 <JM383> The idea is to work with correct information Zzo...I can asumption what ever....but your birth time is very importan
21:15:35 <zzo38> Again, *I don't know*.
21:16:02 <zzo38> Use data for a fictional character if you have to!
21:16:24 <JM383> It is okay Zzo...When you get so, we can talk more about your good personality.
21:16:56 <zzo38> OK, I think I might be able to find my birth certificate around here somewhere.
21:16:58 <ais523> `unicode DEGREE SYMBOL
21:17:04 <JM383> At least Zzo...do you know your solar sign?
21:17:10 <zzo38> I do not wish to reveal my personal information, although I can calculate the positions on computer.
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21:17:36 <zzo38> JM383: Yes, I do know that, although I wish not to reveal it. (It isn't close to the edge of the sign enough that the time of day would be needed.)
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21:18:22 <zzo38> If you tell me what stars to plot, though, I can tell the computer to plot those stars.
21:18:25 <JM383> It is okay Zzo...I understand your point.
21:19:54 <JM383> Zzo... in www.astro.com, they are usign some stars in the charts....but try to use the most important stars of the 12 constelacions...At least, the most shiny stars.
21:20:17 <ais523> `unicode LOWERCASE THETA
21:20:20 <zzo38> There are 88 constellations.
21:20:23 <ais523> `unicode LOWERCASE GREEK LETTER THETA
21:20:29 <ais523> this thing needs fuzzy matching
21:20:42 <ais523> `unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER THETA
21:20:44 <JM383> Beside Zzo...use the sideral astrology, it works much beter than the tropical one.
21:20:49 <zzo38> (There are the 12 constellations that the signs are named after, and one more which is also on the ecliptic though)
21:20:58 <JM383> Zzo...the zodical constelations.
21:21:08 <zzo38> JM383: OK. What reference should be used for ayanamsha then?
21:21:26 <zzo38> (This program defaults to Fagan-Bradley)
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21:22:08 <JM383> Okay Fagan-Bradley?
21:22:26 <zzo38> OK, well, I have it on the screen in sidereal Fagan-Bradley mode.
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21:23:21 <JM383> So, if in your progam you can use all the stars, tray at least to use the more brights and try to see what star is close to your sun.
21:24:00 <JM383> to your sun and in conjuntion with the house or sector I.
21:25:11 <JM383> So, this will gives to you one close idea about your physical personality (Ascendant) and spritual personality (Solar sign)
21:27:38 <zzo38> I have used the fourteen brightest stars (according to a list in Wikipedia).
21:28:50 <zzo38> (in average apparent magnitude)
21:29:18 <JM383> It is okay...14 stras are good...
21:29:50 <zzo38> None of them are in conjunction with the Sun.
21:29:55 <JM383> More than 14 will be much better, but it is better
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21:30:13 <JM383> And in your solar sign?
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21:31:11 <zzo38> Just one is in my solar sign (using Fagan-Bradley).
21:31:49 <JM383> Okay...but do you know the characteristic of this star?
21:32:23 <zzo38> What is a "characteristic" of a star?
21:33:59 <JM383> Okay...for ejemple...Antares in Scorpio...this mean that you need to work in this encarnation with your inner personality, making deep and big changes or....you will be a bit violent
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21:34:05 <JM383> Can you get the idea?
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21:34:56 <zzo38> Kind of. I still don't know what a characteristic of a star means.
21:35:36 <JM383> The magnitude and color of the stars, it shows your a more or lees the characteristic.
21:36:23 <JM383> attribute...Sorry Zzo...I have too many years I do not use the english.
21:38:02 <zzo38> Ah, OK. Well, I do have the magnitude and color of the stars, I can look it up in Wikipedia just fine. But why do you want the color and magnitude? Certainly I know the color of the star is related to its temperature, and stuff like that, but I don't know what you are trying to do with them.
21:38:13 <JM383> But the principal stars are the ascendant, solar sign, moon sign, fate sign and couple sign.
21:38:16 <ais523> JM383: do you understand what this channel's for?
21:38:42 <JM383> Okay...good question.
21:39:05 <ais523> which reminds me, I thought up a new BF Joust strategy last night
21:39:12 <ais523> but I don't have the time to write it into a program right now
21:39:14 <JM383> Do you know to work the colors? I mean, do you know that are the attribute of each color?
21:39:20 <zzo38> JM383: ais523 does make a good point. You should look at the esolang wiki if you want to understand most of what we write here.
21:39:43 <zzo38> JM383: I don't know what "to work the colors" means.
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21:40:20 <ais523> JM383: what I'm worried about, really, is a) this channel isn't actually about astrology, b) zzo38 is probably the only person here who is interested in astrology, and he doesn't know what you're talking about
21:40:22 <ais523> thus it's probably wrong
21:40:25 <ais523> in addition to being offtopic
21:40:42 <JM383> Okay Zzo...each colors got some attributes.
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21:41:28 <JM383> So we can not talk about astrology?
21:41:55 <ais523> the `welcome has the appropriate channel in
21:41:56 <zzo38> Well, I did find "Stars in astrology" in Wikipedia. I don't really care much about where all the planets are at my birth; I am more interested in the here and now.
21:42:01 <HackEgo> JM383: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:42:07 <ais523> that's why you've been welcomed three times already
21:42:09 <zzo38> But yes it is offtopic.
21:42:21 <JM383> Ha...okay Ais, please pardon me for, but I was looking for a topic.
21:42:25 <zzo38> (Many offtopic things are sometimes discussed in here, but you still ought to learn what is ontopic)
21:42:47 <ais523> or to put it another way, offtopic conversation is more tolerated from people who participate in the ontopic conversations
21:42:53 <zzo38> (In order to learn what is the interests too, since astrology isn't much of an interest.)
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21:43:15 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is anther way to put it too; good idea.
21:43:24 <mroman> not unless there's a language that depends on astrological constellation
21:43:35 <ais523> mroman: we could invent one
21:43:39 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity is the closest
21:43:50 <mroman> we can always invent eso languages :)
21:43:56 <zzo38> mroman: Actually yes I did write in "List of ideas" something about that!
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21:44:10 <zzo38> Maybe it can be done, somehow.
21:44:30 <mroman> I figure astrological constellations can be pre-calculated somehow
21:44:56 <zzo38> Positions of planets, stars, etc can be calculated accurately for past and future using ephemeris.
21:45:01 <mroman> then you could cheat and set the system time to a specific value :(
21:45:24 <mroman> trusted computing stuff
21:45:29 <mroman> that prevents you from doing so
21:45:52 <zzo38> (Really the only thing I can think of is something similar to Wait, although I wanted to think of something more interesting and different than that.)
21:47:11 <JM383> Well...pardon me for to be out-topic.
21:47:42 <mroman> Everything is on topic as long as you invent a language for it
21:47:50 <zzo38> A more complicated thing would also have an actual program in addition to that, and would allow certain events to change the parameters of the horoscope (house system, ayanamsha, harmonic factor, etc) and so on.
21:48:20 <zzo38> mroman: Maybe you can make something related to fengshui too. After all there are a lot of unusual ideas!
21:48:46 <mroman> Are there any papers about empirically measuring the feng shui level of a user?
21:49:13 <mroman> maybe through blood, finger print, electrodes
21:50:36 <JM383> thanks for your time and again, pardon me for.
21:51:10 <mroman> I'm sure I can make one up
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21:52:17 <zzo38> I don't know if Society for Scientific Exploration has any; they do try to write scientific papers relating to telepathy and astrology and so on.
21:52:56 <njm> Linux tptp.cc 2.6.32-358.6.2.el6.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu May 16 20:59:36 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
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21:53:10 <utopian> Linux ultra30.tptp.cc 3.10.7-gentoo-r1 #1 PREEMPT Sat Nov 2 19:03:59 EDT 2013 sparc64 sun4u TI UltraSparc II (BlackBird) GNU/Linux
21:54:44 <zzo38> About fengshui, I know it uses various different "schools" of fengshui, and the oldest one is called "form school", which is the only one I think has some partial validity and reasonableness, from what I can tell.
22:02:22 <zzo38> SSE does have a paper titled "How to Reject Any Scientific Manuscript". It also has some titles I do not understand, such as "Phenomenology of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine Use: A Thematic Analysis".
22:03:11 <zzo38> It does have one title which does look like something I have thought about in the past: "Ockhams Razor and Its Improper Use".
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22:03:59 <kmc> DMT's a hell of a drug
22:04:39 <copumpkin> I still haven't tried it outside of ayahuasca
22:05:00 <kmc> deprived / depraved
22:05:05 <utopian> https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/319595_1585878742417_31179844_n.jpg
22:05:08 <utopian> DMT I made a few years back
22:05:10 <kmc> I haven't tried DMT either, but I did take 5-MeO-DMT
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22:06:46 <tswett_w> The nick I use when I'm actually here and paying attention.
22:07:03 <tswett_w> Self-solving multi-king chess problems.
22:08:21 <zzo38> What rules are used with multi-kings?
22:08:22 -!- Koen_ has quit (Client Quit).
22:08:33 <tswett_w> A move is legal only if at the end of it, none of your kings are in check.
22:08:42 -!- Koen_ has joined.
22:09:10 <zzo38> (Different chess variants with multiple kings use different rules.)
22:09:34 <zzo38> I don't know if it is Turing-complete with unlimited board sizes possibly?
22:09:59 * Koen_ wonders if zzo38 is talking about chess being turing-complete
22:10:06 <tswett_w> Yeah, an easy-seeming question is whether or not it's Turing-complete with an infinite board and infinitely many pieces.
22:10:17 <tswett_w> A more interesting question, perhaps, is whether or not it's Turing-complete with only finitely many pieces.
22:10:40 <zzo38> Yes, is it? I don't know that answer either.
22:12:19 <tswett_w> It seems pretty hard to constrain pieces to move in only way. It's only obvious how to do this with the pawn. If there aren't any enemy pieces around, the pawn can only move forward.
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22:22:33 <kmc> self-transforming machine elves, are they turing complete
22:23:45 <tswett_w> I can't think how you'd do any kind of computation at all with SSMKCPs.
22:24:21 <Taneb> tswett_w, but Wang tiles are turing-complete and you can't do computation with them
22:24:43 <kmc> you can't?
22:24:48 <kmc> por que no
22:24:54 <Taneb> kmc, no, they're just tiles
22:25:02 <tswett_w> I can't think how you'd represent any kind of computation at all with SSMKCPs.
22:25:10 <Taneb> Also, I'm going to bed now
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22:25:47 <tswett_w> I"m reminded of a C program containing this line:
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22:25:57 <tswett_w> "while (x --> 0) { // x goes to 0"
22:26:56 <oerjan> now i'm reminded of continuous brainfuck
22:27:12 <oerjan> or whatever if was called.
22:27:37 <oerjan> running a program required solving differential equations.
22:28:20 <oerjan> basically + and - adjusted a cell infinitesimally.
22:28:44 <oerjan> i have a feeling oklopol was involved.
22:29:52 <kmc> we should have a monthly Least Boring BF Derivative prize
22:30:00 <kmc> also "derivative" heh
22:30:10 <oerjan> <Sgeo> My dad just told me to become a doctor and said something about a shortage of competent doctors <-- are you ben from darths & droids.
22:30:21 <kmc> no hes Sgeo from the internet
22:30:24 <Sgeo> I haven't read Darth & Droids
22:30:48 <oerjan> kmc: that's even _more_ implausible!
22:31:16 <tswett_w> Is that that comic strip that parodies Star Wars I by presenting it as a D&D campaign?
22:31:43 <Sgeo> I thought Star Wars I was considered utterly horrible?
22:31:46 <oerjan> well, except they're up to V now.
22:31:59 <Sgeo> I've only seen IV so fa
22:32:06 <Sgeo> And I was half asleep
22:32:09 <kmc> IV, II, III, V, VI
22:32:22 <Sgeo> It seemed a bit cheesy
22:32:25 <pikhq> IV is the worst of the OT by far.
22:32:35 <Sgeo> I thought Machete was IV V II III VI
22:32:39 <oerjan> V is the only one i've seen in a genuine cinema, although i've picked up parts of I on tv.
22:32:41 <kmc> pikhq: yeah, I couldn't wait to graduate to Operating Thetan level V
22:32:51 <pikhq> Not coincidentally the only one directed by Lucas.
22:33:24 <oerjan> Sgeo: one of the accomplishments of darths & droids is that they made the most hated character in I look likeable.
22:33:33 <shachaf> kmc: Sgeo is from the internet?
22:33:34 <Sgeo> oerjan: sounds fun
22:33:51 <Sgeo> I read a novelization of I, come to think of it
22:33:54 <Sgeo> From Anakin's POV
22:34:17 <Sgeo> I think as a kid I've read a lot of novelizations
22:34:31 <Sgeo> I keep being surprised by the concept of Kenan and Kel as a TV show
22:37:07 <kmc> Kenan made the move up to SNL
22:38:02 <kmc> Kel disappeared from society and lives in a cabin in the woods with Grothendieck
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22:40:22 <Sgeo> This music I'm listening to is somewhat inappropriate for a hellish world with superpowers, yet it's now associated with it indelibly in my mind
22:40:53 <ais523> tswett_w: you can trap bishops behind pawn chains of their own-colored pawns
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22:41:29 <oerjan> Sgeo: is it a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapSaccharineWorld ?
22:41:48 <Sgeo> Well, not sure if it's really hellish
22:42:12 <Sgeo> But in the city that's the main focus, gangs of supervillians control the area, I think
22:42:24 <tswett_w> oerjan: I wasn't sure whether you were telling the truth about what Darths & Droids was, so I looked it up.
22:42:42 <tswett_w> So, I gotta go do homework and stuff. See all y'all guys.
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22:43:29 <Sgeo> I want to try a wind tunnel
22:43:55 <kmc> that's awesomely unspecific
22:43:59 <kmc> "i want to try a laser"
22:44:20 <Sgeo> As in, one of those places that's like skydiving but in an indoor cylindrical area
22:44:39 <Sgeo> http://www.funfix.com/Indoor-Wind-Tunnels/New-York/
22:44:44 <Sgeo> http://vimeo.com/72760181
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22:52:24 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try Ada
22:53:15 <Sgeo> Well, I certainly should at least try to get an understanding of its concurrency model
22:53:23 <kmc> you try Ada, I'll try DMT, we can compare notes
22:53:47 <olsner> how is DMT's concurrency model?
22:54:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, Ada distinguishes procedures and functions? Or is that just for protected objects?
22:54:20 <olsner> iirc functions have return values, procedures don't
22:54:34 <kmc> oerjan: a popular model
23:08:07 <fizzie> How is trying Ada remotely like trying an indoor wind tunnel flying place?
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23:09:09 <oerjan> quoth the writing desk
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23:10:18 <kmc> i'm glad zzo38 was around when JM372 showed up
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23:12:10 <kmc> also "JM372" sounds like a synthetic cannabinoid
23:12:24 <zzo38> kmc: Ah. OK. I also didn't know it sounds like a synthetic cannabinoid.
23:13:09 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cannabinoids jesus there are a lot of these now
23:13:57 <kmc> hey kids wanna get high on some 2-Isopropyl-5-methyl-1-(2,6-dihydroxy-4-nonylphenyl)cyclohex-1-ene
23:16:13 <zzo38> Maybe you, but I don't want to.
23:16:53 <kmc> that is fine too
23:17:07 <Sgeo> Get high on dihydrogen monoxide?
23:17:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
23:17:52 <kmc> aw i hope i didn't scare him off with my #drugz talk
23:18:20 <Sgeo> Of course I click
23:18:31 <kmc> also it's hard to tell whether zzo38 doesn't get most jokes or just has an incredibly deadpan response
23:20:54 <kmc> he definitely seems like someone who does have a sense of humor and it's for him, not for other people
23:21:09 <kmc> which is commendable
23:22:06 <kmc> @tell zzo38 you're great, also sorry if I scared you off with #drugz talk
23:22:33 <Sgeo> DHMO is the primary ingredient in common forms of 'alternative therapy', which has killed numerous people
23:23:01 <kmc> it's true!
23:23:04 <kmc> some might say the only ingredient
23:24:35 <oerjan> Sgeo: it has also been used to kill people outright.
23:26:04 <oerjan> i hear bangladesh has big trouble with increasing DHMO levels.
23:27:31 <oerjan> especially in coastal environments
23:28:15 <oerjan> and the chinese have spent enormous sums of money trying to control it.
23:31:15 <oerjan> even norway has regular overexposure incidents.
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23:49:26 <kmc> whereas the prosperity of the dutch is largely a result of a forward-thinking centuries-old program to remove DMSO from the area around major cities
23:50:12 <kmc> i fucked up that joke bad
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23:50:34 <oerjan> maybe you confused it with MSG, also a problem substance
23:50:47 <tertu> DMSO sounds like it might actually be a bad thing
23:50:52 <kmc> but if you can't laugh at yourself causing people to laugh at you instead of with you, who can you laugh at
23:51:00 <kmc> tertu: it's mostly useful for getting other things (good or bad) through your skin
23:51:07 <kmc> I don't remember how harmful it is by itself
23:51:31 <oerjan> "Although it has some niche medicinal uses it also has significant known side effects. It has been discussed as treatment for cancer and other conditions."
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00:11:56 <Koen_> random thought: has anyone managed to somehow "separate" memory and control flow, when writing proofs about computational power?
00:12:37 <Phantom__Hoover> the lambda calculus and friends? the chomsky hierarchy? neither of these have notions of memory or control flow
00:12:45 <kmc> space vs. time complexity classes?
00:14:26 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: well that's the opposite of separating them, i'd say
00:18:28 <oerjan> well i think it's tricky to separate them in a way that doesn't allow you to cheat by hiding more control flow in the memory.
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00:28:58 <Koen_> oerjan: well if it's a proof for a lower bound to the computational power, that's not a problem
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00:31:39 <oerjan> a hunch: it might be that the greatest degree of separation between control flow and memory is found in relatively vanilla non-object oriented programming languages, like C or Forth. although also brainfuck.
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00:31:56 <oerjan> *imperative programming languages
00:32:04 <oerjan> left out the most important word :P
00:33:19 <oerjan> dunno about proofs, though.
00:34:07 <oerjan> object-oriented and functional both excluded because they provide ways of wrapping control flow into a value.
00:34:39 <oerjan> although even C and Forth have ways to reify functions.
00:34:52 <oerjan> maybe just brainfuck, then :P
00:36:56 <oerjan> i suppose vanilla Pascal doesn't have first class functions or procedures. (i'm not sure if it even has function/procedure arguments or if that was also a later addition.)
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00:58:48 <Sgeo> TVTropes certainly calls the world a Crapsack world
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01:02:26 <Bike> counterpoint: dickbutt
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01:41:21 <HackEgo> Thanks, hm lessee.... Thessee....
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01:52:26 <Sgeo> There's a character named Gregor
01:54:34 <Gregor> Gregor: It is actually a name.
01:57:49 <shachaf> elliott: You were all about complete partial orders once, right?
02:01:48 <oerjan> he was completely partial to them.
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03:48:54 <kmc> unsigned long day
03:49:26 <pikhq> It is in fact a 25 hour day by my reckoning.
03:53:05 <shachaf> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/8rhlusE.gif
03:56:05 <oerjan> is that even possibly not fake
03:56:36 <shachaf> what does it mean for something to be fake
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03:57:32 <oerjan> i retract the question on the grounds that the responder is too meta.
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04:00:05 <shachaf> never meta question i didn't like
04:07:52 <kmc> shachaf: <3
04:09:16 <zzo38> I also think today is the long day
04:09:22 <lambdabot> kmc said 4h 47m 15s ago: you're great, also sorry if I scared you off with #drugz talk
04:09:41 <zzo38> kmc: No, that isn't it. That is fine
04:12:42 <copumpkin> http://zachbruggeman.me/dogescript/
04:15:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: do you know about chu spaces
04:16:08 <zzo38> Are you sure that you cannot do computation with Wang tiles?
04:17:01 <oerjan> omg chu spaces i vaguely remember those
04:18:37 <oerjan> it was some kind of generalization of galois connections which somehow helped with modeling linear logic
04:20:25 <shachaf> you mean the "adjointness condition" in the definition of the thing corresponding to a continuous function?
04:20:27 <oerjan> zzo38: well you might but in the obvious way i can see you need to nondeterministically choose how to extend your tiling, it's probably extremely slow.
04:20:47 <oerjan> i don't remember the _actual_ definition of a chu space, mind you.
04:21:59 <shachaf> the definition is p. simple: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_space
04:22:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: well it looked p. simple to me :'(
04:23:51 <shachaf> or are you saying you don't now about them
04:24:01 <shachaf> you're supposed to know everything
04:24:44 <oerjan> that looks familiar. i also recall the supposed quantum connection which i never thought really materialized.
04:24:55 <copumpkin> when I hear chu spaces, I think of train depots
04:25:06 <oerjan> which was what i found most interesting.
04:26:02 <Bike> kmc: http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/smartnews/2013/07/long-before-trees-overtook-the-land-earth-was-covered-by-giant-mushrooms/ sweet
04:26:39 <shachaf> kmc: should i ask lexande about chu-chu spaces
04:26:45 <oerjan> shachaf: well it's something i found vaguely interesting but which seemed to me to not have enough substance for me to look at it in depth.
04:26:46 <kmc> i guess so
04:27:04 <shachaf> oerjan: is a quantum connection like a galois connection
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04:28:06 <kmc> "More from Smithsonian.com: - A Fungus-Like Disease Threatens Europe’s Supply of Gin -The Fungus in Your Cheese Is Having Weird Sex - Insulation Made Out of … Mushrooms?"
04:28:28 <Bike> thank god for all this fungus related news
04:28:58 <kmc> there's an episode of Seinfeld which gets good mileage from the fact that "fungus" is an inherently funny word
04:29:13 <copumpkin> if my name were gus, I'd go by fungus
04:29:40 <oerjan> Bike: istr reading about that fungus theory before
04:29:51 <Bike> well it says 2007
04:30:05 <Bike> i'm just late to the party, the giant fungus spire party
04:30:22 <Bike> " It might have had an algal symbiont, which would make it a lichen rather than a fungus in the strict sense." awesome.
04:30:30 <shachaf> kmc: the last episode of breaking bad was good btw
04:31:27 <kmc> it was allright
04:32:06 <kmc> I don't think it quite lives up to the show overall
04:32:20 <oerjan> Bike: bah your link initially looked like they'd found confirming evidence, but it's just a rehash of the 2007 story?
04:33:12 <Bike> this thing lived half a billion years ago, cut them some slack on finding 'evidence'
04:33:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: is a quantum connection like a galois connection <-- well if you could _prove_ that, you might get famous?
04:34:24 <oerjan> Bike: it's the rehashing i'm complaining about.
04:34:58 <Bike> well if it hadn't been rehashed i wouldn't have run into it at all so there
04:36:06 <shachaf> kmc: have you been rehashed today #drugz
04:45:25 <drlemon> Why is there no ALPACA interpreter
04:46:46 <oerjan> cpressey broke stuff again
04:47:12 <oerjan> drlemon: http://catseye.tc/node/ALPACA
04:49:07 <drlemon> http://catseye.tc/node/alpaca_(Python) is nothing
04:49:59 <drlemon> I DON'T KNOW HOW TO PYTHON
04:51:06 <oerjan> drlemon: i think you're supposed to download the distribution.
04:51:37 <drlemon> OK but i did and i don't know how to use stuff
04:52:55 <oerjan> you can probably download python from python.org
04:53:22 <oerjan> or there is probably a package for it.
04:53:50 <oerjan> hm well whatever your system. (you seem to be using an irc client for mac)
04:54:26 <drlemon> But i don't know how to deal with a bunch of seperate programs
04:55:24 <HackEgo> 2013-11-02 23:49:47: <doesthiswork> shachaf: yes
04:55:41 <zzo38> Probably you just put the program in some directory and then type in "python" and the name of the program (or if it is chmod +x and has #! at the top, then typing in the name of the file by itself might work)
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04:57:11 <oerjan> it does have #!, however the program refers to modules in other directories, so it's probably best to keep it in the same directory structure
04:58:29 <zzo38> Yes, keep the same directory structure as whatever it uses
04:58:34 <oerjan> drlemon: download the files into some directory, then run bin/alpaca in the subdirectory of that.
04:58:49 <oerjan> (the bin/alpaca which is in there, that is.)
05:00:27 <shachaf> oerjan: do you know about frames and locales and those things
05:00:43 <shachaf> the funny bit is that a frame is the same thing as a locale
05:02:27 <oerjan> not beyond hearing the words
05:02:41 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
05:03:08 <HackEgo> 2013-10-28 20:17:00: <elliott> boily: I do not believe so
05:03:35 <oerjan> no i do mean in the context of ct/algebraic geometry or thereabouts, things beyond my knowledge.
05:03:36 <Bike> finally took my suggested roadtrip down to east timor
05:03:46 <Bike> is presently held up at a checkpoint in eastern iran
05:03:49 <Bike> godspeed elliott
05:03:53 <zzo38> Why does it use en_NZ.UTF-8? In my opinion it ought to be C locale by default unless you change it for an individual command.
05:04:16 <shachaf> zzo38: No, it should be UTF-8. C isn't compatible with Unicode.
05:04:20 <Bike> not very nice to new zealand
05:04:49 <shachaf> oerjan: but you know about homology and things right
05:04:52 <zzo38> shachaf: Using UTF-8 by default causes other problems; it should be C by default, and selecting UTF-8 when you do want Unicode (you also select other things you want, at the same time)
05:04:59 <oerjan> zzo38: we asked Gregor to set it so that HackEgo could use utf-8, and he chose en_NZ to be funny
05:05:17 <shachaf> zzo38: You always want Unicode.
05:05:52 <zzo38> Would selecting the C locale speed it up by a small amount if implemented in a certain way?
05:06:11 <Bike> it's important that a linux installation on uml on irc is maximally performant
05:06:14 <zzo38> I suppose if you do want the C locale now you can still specify it for an individual command though
05:06:39 <oerjan> zzo38: but all HackEgo commands that are intended to be run directly from ` take the rest of the irc message as argument, and so should do utf-8 because that's the charset we want to encourage in this channel.
05:07:35 <oerjan> and if it wasn't on by default people wouldn't care enough to set it when they should.
05:07:59 <zzo38> Yes, that seems reasonable, but sometimes you might not want it (although a shortcut could be made such as `runc to use the C locale, maybe, if a shortcut is wanted)
05:08:05 <shachaf> oerjan: Even the people of #esoteric?
05:08:18 <oerjan> shachaf: i do know about basic homology yes
05:09:11 <oerjan> shachaf: some would care, but too many wouldn't?
05:09:33 <oerjan> and some like i would bitch about having to care about it on individual commands.
05:10:23 <oerjan> shachaf: it allows you to prove things like the jordan-brouwer theorem and brouwer fixed point theorem
05:10:42 <zzo38> And if you want to pipe binary data to a program that expects text, it might also not work in UTF-8 mode. (Of course this would be rare though.)
05:10:44 <oerjan> and invariance of domain
05:11:04 <oerjan> basically things that tell you that euclidean spaces are almost sane topologically.
05:11:53 <zzo38> I do sometimes work on Linux computer. I think it is set to en.UTF-8 by default although on my account I have changed it to the C locale, disabled Unicode translation, and loaded a CP437 font.
05:12:56 <zzo38> This improves the operation of the system.
05:13:27 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> I do sometimes work on Linux computer. I think it is set to en.UTF-8 by default although on my account I have changed it to the C locale, disabled Unicode translation, and loaded a CP437 font. <zzo38> This improves the operation of the system.
05:13:32 <HackEgo> 1126) <zzo38> I do sometimes work on Linux computer. I think it is set to en.UTF-8 by default although on my account I have changed it to the C locale, disabled Unicode translation, and loaded a CP437 font. <zzo38> This improves the operation of the system.
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05:15:53 <zzo38> (The font file from MegaZeux works just fine in Linux; it doesn't need to be converted.)
05:16:22 <zzo38> Now I read the Wikipedia article of Chu spaces.
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05:18:34 <oerjan> @tell elliott I hope you don't think I'm being overly preemptive with these suspicious new accounts.
05:19:05 <zzo38> Things like "a Chu space (A, r, X) over a set K consists of a set A of points..." is what I have programmed the SetType class in Haskell for. It might be: data Chu :: * -> * where { Chu :: forall a k x. (SetType a, SetType x) => SetOf a -> SetOf x -> (a -> x -> k) -> Chu k; }; Would that be it even close?
05:21:59 <zzo38> Do you know if that is it or not, and so on?
05:22:05 <oerjan> @tell elliott Argh too many to do this.
05:22:17 <oerjan> i think we have a spam problem again.
05:29:33 <zzo38> (However this SetType only works with finite sets (currently).)
05:31:12 <Bike> great, because i really needed something vaguer than topological spaces
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05:42:39 <shachaf> how are there even billions of people in the world
05:43:06 <Bike> imo it does make sense
05:43:58 <Bike> population dynamics
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05:49:05 <Bike> the growth of the population at an instant is, very roughly, directly proportional to the number of mating pairs. the number of mating pairs is proportional to the population. so, the rate of change of the population is roughly k*p, where p is the population size and k is a parameter.
05:49:45 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't even know 'er!
05:53:35 <shachaf> Bike: yes exponential but why can't it be small
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06:17:00 <lambdabot> I can't decide which WRONG TURN to make first!! I wonder if BOB
06:24:07 <Sgeo> Thing I need to fit into my model of existant metaprogramming systems: Prolog term_expansion
06:25:36 <Sgeo> I'm thinking more like defmacro than anything else
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07:22:08 <Bike> https://archive.org/details/Adventure_1978_Atari_NTSC aw yeah.
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07:29:34 <Halite> your mother is esoteric.
07:29:51 <zzo38> Halite: Are you sure?
07:30:41 <Halite> Can it be the joke of the day?
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07:32:20 <Halite> print(x and !y or !x and y)
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08:13:26 <zzo38> I wrote this program "utftovlq" which can convert between many byte stream formats (8-bits, 16-bits, 32-bits, 64-bits, UTF-8, Modified UTF-8, VLQ, LEB128, UTF-16; many have small and big endian modes), and it can also add/remove Unicode BOM. Did I perhaps miss something?
08:15:39 <zzo38> (This program can also be used to byteswap files with the command "utftovlq Ww" or "utftovlq wW".)
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08:58:20 <zzo38> Maybe you should temporarily disable account creation? Post a note you have to attempt to ask in the IRC or wait until it is not disabled anymore.
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09:58:43 <mroman> I hate that C decided to ignore overflows
10:03:03 <olsner> I think it's more like it ignores/traps/nasal-demons/wraps overflows
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10:56:34 <fizzie> In some cases also raises-exceptions-es.
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13:39:04 <boily> Uguubee1111112: who are you? are you legion? what is your numbering scheme? do you prefer your condensed milk sweetened or unsweetened?
13:39:13 <lambdabot> quintopia said 11h 59m 35s ago: thoily!
13:39:29 <boily> quintopia: hi! have they been received?
13:41:54 <boily> (hm. that may not be the right conjugation. «ont-ils été reçus.»)
13:51:11 <coppro> boily: english conjugation or french?
13:52:11 <boily> the English one. my brain is on auto-pilot, so I may calque from French a little bit more than usual.
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13:52:28 <coppro> boily: the passive voice is a bit weird, but otherwise it's correct
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14:44:42 <boily> @tell zzo38 re your latest quote: feeling some form of DOS nostalgia?
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15:59:51 <Halite> @tell lambdabot Your mother considered it noted.
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16:05:54 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 21m 11s ago: re your latest quote: feeling some form of DOS nostalgia?
16:07:16 <zzo38> boily: I do sometimes use DOS, but that isn't really the point; CP437 is the PC character set and what I use for general purpose screen text
16:08:22 <zzo38> I think what C programs generally do with integer overflows is good idea.
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16:21:23 <boily> lambdabot answers to ??
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16:21:53 <boily> zzo38: but, but... what about all those wonderful accented letters left out of CP437?
16:30:42 <zzo38> boily: I don't use them. You could use others if needed but the other ones lack ine drawing and various other things I sometimes use.
16:31:17 <zzo38> BBS connections also usually expect CP437, and other software I write (especially DOS programs) expect CP437.
16:31:49 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
16:32:14 <boily> FireFly: he is Zzo38, of Weird Computer Setups.
16:34:37 <zzo38> Unicode requires more than 256 characters anyways.
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16:45:57 <zzo38> man works fine in this mode if LANG=C is set. swetest will try to output a degree sign in UTF-8 encoding; the shell script I wrote to wrap it translates it to shift-out/shift-in encoding instead (as well as making it using the current date/time by default).
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18:25:11 <Taneb> Today I fell asleep in a lecture so I was pretty confused
18:25:29 <Taneb> (I could actually hear the lecturer in my sleep but in my dreams he was talking about sudoku)
18:25:39 <Taneb> (he was really talking about integration)
18:25:59 <Taneb> Anyway, I was pretty confused, especially how a particular inequality he gave was supposed to work
18:26:34 <olsner> sleep causes confusion => don't sleep
18:26:52 <Taneb> So I asked the lecturer
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18:27:17 <Taneb> Turns out, he made a ridiculously huge mistake
18:29:28 <ais523\unfoog> two out of four exams I've marked, I found mistakes in at least one question after the exam had already been sat
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18:38:58 <Taneb> Oh wow my flatmates made me a birthday cake
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18:43:07 <boily> @tell Taneb Joyeux anniversaire!
18:44:27 <zzo38> I made some Dungeons&Dragons spell to block 8th and 9th level spells. It cannot block any lower level spells, you cannot cast any other spells or attack while it is active, and it costs experience points, but it is a 1st level spell.
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19:08:07 <boily> I'm beginning to harbour a profound hatred towards CUPS. now my documents reach the printers, but printing a PDF produces enlightening knowledge on its internal postscript structure.
19:08:42 <zzo38> Do files other than PDF work?
19:09:09 <coppro> boily: the best print fuckup I've ever seen involved a solaris machine that managed to print 97 pages of postscript
19:09:41 <boily> zzo38: haven't tried them yet. I'll see what happens with libreoffice...
19:09:45 <zzo38> On Linux computer I have just used something like "dvilj4 - < paper.dvi | lp" which works fine to print DVI files.
19:10:10 <boily> coppro: seems that I'm on a solaris machine, then. or if I'm not, somewhere on the floor there looms the Spirit of Solaris.
19:11:19 <lambdabot> boily said 28m 11s ago: Joyeux anniversaire!
19:11:53 <boily> how old are you now?
19:12:12 <boily> (hm. libreoffice calc froze...)
19:12:12 <olsner> coppro: hmm, did the solaris machine send the printer a postscript program that printed the postscript program then?
19:12:25 <shachaf> imo Taneb is older than time itself
19:12:50 <olsner> shachaf: I think Taneb is vaguely half as young as elliott
19:15:47 <boily> elliott: are you $((2 * 19)) year old?
19:16:30 <boily> ok, so printing an .ods file does not work. what the fungot is wrong with printing in the linux world?
19:16:30 <fungot> boily: it can copy regions instead of cells... you can code for 1459 plus the ctcp and dcc ' specs' you find through google, then write some simple html js to exercise them.
19:17:00 <boily> fungot: way too roundabout for my tastes. I'd like a simple solution that just plain works.
19:17:00 <fungot> boily: quit his work and told his wife and kids after drinking absinthe what they didn't tell me where it came from. :) that's not really helping much.
19:17:34 <boily> fungot: I already don't drink absinthe. the problem lies somewhere else.
19:17:34 <fungot> boily: what about code that changes the value of var right away? :p wait, i misunderstood
19:17:41 <boily> fungot: bin tiens.
19:17:42 <fungot> boily: there's not much to change.): resemblance of an application is silly, then. tag along, if you can get spin by yourself
19:17:54 * boily spins in his chair
19:19:59 <zzo38> boily: Try doing it the way I did it to see if that way works better.
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19:22:36 <zzo38> (You need a PCL printer in order for that to work, though.)
19:23:14 <olsner> boily: convert to ps, netcat to printer? how hard can it be
19:23:32 <Taneb> Aww man, I got distracted and haven't had my dinner yet
19:23:42 <Taneb> I was going to through some things together and make a really weird meal
19:25:56 <fizzie> olsner: Printing can be pretty https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130821-gutenprint.jpg hard.
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19:26:45 <boily> olsner: those are now undetectable printes because the CUPS guys decided to remove ESSENTIAL FEATURES AND NOW I CAN'T FUNGOTTING PRINT NOTHING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BANDE D'ENFOIRÉS PAS FOUTUS DE FAIRE DE QUOI DE STABLE AAAAAAAAARGH!
19:27:14 <shachaf> fungot: how do you feel about that
19:27:14 <fungot> shachaf: are you saying i'm an f- word?) balance exercises are very boring
19:27:32 <fizzie> fungot: To be fair, you kind of *are* an "f- word".
19:27:32 <fungot> fizzie: but then that would be handy
19:27:33 <shachaf> p. sure boily is saying you're an f- word.
19:28:45 <boily> I like fungot. Fungot likes me. we are friends.
19:28:45 <fungot> boily: i will conquer the earth with my fnord fnord tomorrow. but that's just geeky can you get many libraries for c too.
19:29:27 <fungot> shachaf: other people apparently have no problem with that?! just apply methods to me, though
19:29:27 <boily> and I am calm. I am very calm. I exude zen.
19:30:28 <olsner> boily: calm like a BANDE D'ENFOIRÉS PAS FOUTUS DE FAIRE DE QUOI DE STABLE?
19:30:36 <shachaf> soon ripe. soon rotten. soon gone. but not fungotten.
19:30:36 <fungot> shachaf: but it'd still be sufficiently terse to be a dos 6.22 install disk and complained about my computer not having a chimp handy, i guess
19:31:20 <ais523\unfoog> "are you saying i'm an f- word?" is incredibly insightful, given that its name was used as one two lines ago
19:31:43 <boily> olsner: LA LA LA LA LA ♪
19:32:53 <shachaf> sometimes i think fizzie twiddling fungot's knobs behind the scenes
19:32:53 <fungot> shachaf: because he is in the way of eventual development of ai on par with e.g. ( sqrt square double), and the
19:33:55 <fungot> shachaf: i get the basic idea is the same
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19:34:17 <boily> shachaf: are you implying illicit hot f-on-f action?
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19:36:37 <metasepia> Your divination: "Abounding" to "Skinning"
19:36:54 <boily> myname: the oracular tools are of no help here.
19:36:58 <shachaf> imo fungot is better than metasepia
19:38:35 <boily> of course fungot is better. my bot is dangerously encroaching on the Vaporware Territory more and more.
19:38:35 <fungot> boily: anyone knows of such a name could have been told bad things then. as you probably read, i also mean it, should the link to
19:38:53 <boily> fungot: hey, no dissing my bot.
19:38:53 <fungot> boily: meybe because they are utf8, but it was
19:39:30 <shachaf> fungot: who's the best bot?
19:39:30 <fungot> shachaf: richard stallman, right?") was undefined. :) the recursive one be printing more? or is this getting the client code uses '' in the " language engineering programme".
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19:39:56 <fizzie> Richard Stallman: good friend, best bot.
19:40:28 <shachaf> fungot: good bot, best friend.
19:40:28 <fungot> shachaf: hm probably that's because you just call scheduler whenever you want to map a function that takes no arguments)"
19:40:39 <fizzie> fungot: If only you could look up METAR reports.
19:40:39 <fungot> fizzie: in this case, would you
19:40:48 <mroman> I assume there are decent bison/flex like libraries for python?
19:41:09 <mroman> one that generates directly an AST
19:42:28 <Taneb> I was also going to try and install Arch onto my laptop
19:42:55 <boily> installing Arch is always a nice thing to do.
19:43:10 <shachaf> fungot: are you sentient yet
19:43:10 <fungot> shachaf: bye for today
19:45:36 <olsner> goodbye fungot, sleep dreams
19:45:53 <fungot> shachaf: how's lisppaste work? ( x false? false: true) that was held in bingen am rhein near frankfurt. though on occasion i will have to
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19:48:39 <metasepia> EFRO 041920Z AUTO 09006KT 9999 SCT012 BKN060 BKN080 M03/M03 Q0989
19:48:45 <metasepia> CYUL 041900Z 07002KT 30SM SCT240 03/M10 A3069 RMK CI3 SLP395
19:48:55 <boily> HAH! for once it's colder over there!
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20:11:05 <boily> have anyone here tried bitmessage?
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20:12:15 <utopian> http://tptp.cc/images/ultra30_hardstatus.png
20:12:23 <boily> encrypted P2P messaging à la bittorrent/bitcoin.
20:12:29 <metasepia> EGNM 041950Z 27004KT CAVOK 03/02 Q0995
20:12:29 <metasepia> EGNM 041950Z 27004KT CAVOK 03/02 Q0995
20:16:56 <Taneb> Is there a way to get a description of what /dev/sdb represents so I don't overwrite the wrong thing?
20:19:32 <boily> Taneb: if you search in /sys/block/sdb, you'll find stuff.
20:19:38 <boily> (stuff that I'm exploring.)
20:22:18 <boily> you could also try gparted. quick visual description of what's going on with your storage.
20:25:19 <FireFly> you could also file -s /dev/sdb to get some information about what it contains
20:26:47 <boily> «/dev/sda: DOS/MBR boot sector; GRand Unified Bootloader, stage1 version 0x3, stage2 address 0x2000, stage2 segment 0x200 DOS/MBR boot sector DOS executable (COM), boot code»
20:26:53 <boily> (I really need to update that grub.)
20:27:49 <Bike> "/dev/sda: no read permission" well that went well.
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21:10:20 <Taneb> Tempted to wear a bow tie to my lectures tomorrow and see how many people notice
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21:10:58 <kmc> why today in particular
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21:11:23 <Taneb> kmc, you mean tomorrow?
21:12:00 <kmc> why tomorrow in particular
21:12:10 <kmc> is it for guy fawkes day
21:12:25 <kmc> tomorrow is also election day in the States
21:13:59 <kmc> that's right
21:14:18 <kmc> nothing nation-wide, some local stuff
21:14:23 <kmc> governor of Virginia apparently
21:14:44 <kmc> here in SF we have some ballot measures about whether to build condos on the waterfront
21:14:47 <kmc> v. controversial
21:15:11 <kmc> i don't have much sympathy for the people who want rents to be low and also want there to be no new development
21:15:23 <kmc> but I don't know the details of this project or whether one should vote for or against it
21:17:30 <kmc> one thing I've heard is that the "no" campaign is funded by people who already live in luxury buildings and don't want their views spoiled
21:17:40 <kmc> and they are trying to cast it as a populist anti-gentrification thing
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21:19:28 <Taneb> ais523\unfoog, no there can't, that's ridiculous
21:19:34 <zzo38> What controversy is there in NetHack 4?
21:19:56 <zzo38> Then make the fork, if everyone dislikes it
21:20:07 <ais523\unfoog> normally more people like it than dislike it, though
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21:20:12 <Bike> zzo is all about socially conscious software engineering
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21:23:05 <quintopia> "every change should result in a separate fork" lol
21:23:32 <zzo38> No, but if everyone dislikes it you can make a forked version
21:23:39 <zzo38> Maybe someone else doesn't dislike it.
21:27:21 <zzo38> What changes are those anyways?
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21:30:34 <kmc> quintopia: scarily close to the github model
21:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Tempted to wear a bow tie to my lectures tomorrow and see how many people notice
21:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a guy in my year who does this to every lecture
21:33:44 <Taneb> It feels like the slope is going to be slippery
21:33:57 <Taneb> I wear a hat to algebra lectures
21:34:18 <Taneb> I'm just going to wear casual clothes, plus a bow tie
21:34:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm told i managed to get a reputation simply by walking up the stairs in an unusual way
21:36:26 <quintopia> Taneb: the best way to get attention is to where a pink bucket hat and take very long strides walking as fast as possible everywhere you go
21:36:42 <Taneb> quintopia, someone's already doing that
21:38:31 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I pretty much run up stairs and fly down them
21:42:02 <mroman> pyparsing is kinda nice.
21:42:26 <mroman> now I can start to target x86 :)
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22:18:54 <oerjan> remember remember the 4th of november
22:19:01 <oerjan> i mean, happy birthday Taneb
22:20:09 <kmc> oh is it Taneb Day already
22:20:34 <oerjan> poor Taneb, always a tiny step from being the main villain
22:23:15 <Taneb> ...it was Taneb day yesterday
22:23:25 <oerjan> i am not sure if we should include birthdays in wisdom/
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22:23:42 <oerjan> Taneb: oops it's that late already
22:24:40 <kmc> what timezone were you born in?
22:24:45 <oerjan> ok happy Guy Fawkes a-bit-early-night
22:25:09 * kmc was born in America/Chicago, he guesses
22:26:59 <shachaf> i was born in Asia/Jerusalem
22:27:07 <shachaf> it took me three days (so i'm told)
22:27:17 <Bike> slowpoke (your poor mother)
22:29:51 <oerjan> i think i was born in this building https://maps.google.no/maps?hl=no&ll=66.01835,12.6189&spn=0.000607,0.00206&t=h&z=19
22:30:09 <oerjan> at least that's what used to be the main hospital
22:30:48 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, 19
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22:32:18 <olsner> oh, that's pretty far north
22:32:46 <olsner> looks like it's north of iceland even
22:33:51 <oerjan> given the name, iceland is surprising far south compared to scandinavia
22:34:52 <oerjan> hm interesting, zooming all the way out to see iceland and back in doesn't keep the place.
22:34:59 <olsner> maybe iceland was the name to be given to greenland, but someone mixed them up
22:36:34 <oerjan> olsner: the amusing theory is that the people who found iceland wanted to keep others out while the people who found greenland wanted others to join them...
22:36:39 <tertu> i always heard that iceland was named that because they had a bad winter and greenland was called that basically as a marketing trick
22:36:57 <oerjan> although at the time, greenland was much warmer than it is now.
22:36:57 <kmc> http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=66.01835+N+12.6189+E&MS=wls&MP=o&MC=66.01835N12.6189E&DU=mi
22:37:16 <oerjan> and iceland _does_ have a lot of glaciers.
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22:46:16 <olsner> wow, I managed to zoom back in to the same place
22:51:47 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> sometimes i think fizzie twiddling fungot's knobs behind the scenes <fungot> shachaf: because he is in the way of eventual development of ai on par with e.g. ( sqrt square double), and the
22:51:48 <fungot> oerjan: he is my idol. like a splitter had failed or my wiring had gone bad, so i can benefit from the knowledge of others.
22:51:52 <HackEgo> 1127) <shachaf> sometimes i think fizzie twiddling fungot's knobs behind the scenes <fungot> shachaf: because he is in the way of eventual development of ai on par with e.g. ( sqrt square double), and the
22:52:42 <shachaf> oerjan: what, and not the f- word quote?
22:52:50 <nooodl> fizzie: you're fungot's idol!
22:52:50 <fungot> nooodl: i'm not done ( no output and some for loops
22:53:38 <fungot> shachaf: whoa!! i'm in a twist contest!! i'm in the topic? :)
22:53:39 <Bike> question: will i ever remember how NFPA 704 works without looking it up
22:54:14 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> olsner: those are now undetectable printes because the CUPS guys decided to remove SSENTIAL FEATURES AND NOW I CAN'T FUNGOTTING PRINT NOTHING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BANDE D'ENFOIRÉS PAS FOUTUS DE FAIRE DE QUOI DE STABLE AAAAAAAAARGH! <shachaf> fungot: how do you feel about that <fungot> shachaf: are you saying i'm an f- word?) balance exercises are very boring <fizzie> fungot: To be fair, you kind of *are* an "f- word".
22:54:14 <fungot> oerjan: lament should switch falsebot to f! :) i should've thought of that too
22:54:18 <HackEgo> 1128) <boily> olsner: those are now undetectable printes because the CUPS guys decided to remove SSENTIAL FEATURES AND NOW I CAN'T FUNGOTTING PRINT NOTHING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BANDE D'ENFOIRÉS PAS FOUTUS DE FAIRE DE QUOI DE STABLE AAAAAAAAARGH! <shachaf> fungot: how do you feel about that <fungot> shachaf: are you saying i'm an f- word
22:55:00 <kmc> pls translate "BANDE D'ENFOIRÉS PAS FOUTUS DE FAIRE DE QUOI DE STABLE AAAAAAAAARGH!" idiomatically
22:55:00 <oerjan> shachaf: boily's message has colors in it, which are hard to paste through tmux + irssi
22:55:04 <kmc> i want to know what it means
22:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> my favourite thing about xflux: you can run two processes to double the effect
22:55:17 <shachaf> oerjan: i think it just has bold
22:55:27 <shachaf> oerjan: but if you add even one more character you'll have to cut back somewhere else
22:55:42 <Bike> http://www.funraniumlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IMG_2643-768x1024.jpg and now i'm terrified
22:55:52 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> olsner: those are now undetectable printes because the CUPS guys decided to remove ESSENTIAL FEATURES AND NOW I CAN'T FUNGOTTING PRINT NOTHING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BANDE D'ENFOIRÉS PAS FOUTUS DE FAIRE DE QUOI DE STABLE AAAAAAAAARGH! <shachaf> fungot: how do you feel about that <fungot> shachaf: are you saying i'm an f- word?) balance exercises are very boring <fizzie> fungot: To be fair, you kind of *are* an "f- ...
22:55:53 <fungot> oerjan: wish i didn't recognise backstreet boys. ( the a inside the let, before `body...', there's a 50-50 chance of seeing 00 or 11. but you should be
22:55:56 <HackEgo> 1128) <boily> olsner: those are now undetectable printes because the CUPS guys decided to remove ESSENTIAL FEATURES AND NOW I CAN'T FUNGOTTING PRINT NOTHING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BANDE D'ENFOIRÉS PAS FOUTUS DE FAIRE DE QUOI DE STABLE AAAAAAAAARGH! <shachaf> fungot: how do you feel about that <fungot> shachaf: are you saying i'm an f- wo
22:56:34 <oerjan> shachaf: i was hoping the two following spaces were included :(
22:56:48 <oerjan> oh wait it wasn't even the end
22:57:01 <shachaf> fungot: what are you, jonathan hoag?
22:57:01 <fungot> shachaf: not exactly. sisc isn't a compiler or interpreter on you?
22:57:22 <FireFly> fungot: nobody can interpret shachaf..
22:57:22 <fungot> FireFly: well it is _nearly_ trivial, but not like that? :)
22:57:35 <FireFly> fungot: except you, perhaps
22:57:35 <fungot> FireFly: evaluate ( setq paredit-backward-delete-key " backspace" ( which it, and you split it up. :) must've been a burp. first time i was trying to enter the us from canada, i'd suggest lisp-like macros, here.
22:59:23 <nooodl> kmc: "bunch of idiots who couldn't give a fuck about making anything stable aaaaaaargh!" i think
23:00:25 <shachaf> fungot: what am i asking you right now
23:00:25 <fungot> shachaf: the dots are rather important...
23:00:30 <oerjan> the computers will take over only after we've already been driven mad by them.
23:00:31 <shachaf> fungot: what am i asking you right now...
23:00:32 <fungot> shachaf: yes, " swipe" is understood to mean unzip and look at two buffers at once, like they send ,user if scheme48-package is ( user) or ,config if it's ( config) loads the packages.scm file in the last box
23:01:15 <olsner> oerjan: best of luck getting a too long quote into a too short line
23:01:38 <oerjan> olsner: a procrustean task
23:01:49 <olsner> fungot: the quote is too long, wdyt?
23:01:49 <fungot> olsner: fiz miten m saan ne fnord fnord med fnord in fnord ( btw typo, says fnord at one point
23:01:51 <fungot> shachaf: what do you have anything in common with java, no?
23:02:02 <fungot> shachaf: i am not in the helpdesk.... anyone have any more dark secrets to worry about
23:02:28 <kmc> this incident will be reported
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23:03:06 <FireFly> fungot: which of the fnords were a typo?
23:03:06 <fungot> FireFly: i think haskell is mostly very useless, unless you can guarantee by an additional code analysis that this procedure is for), fnord
23:03:27 <oerjan> fungot: well even spj says that
23:03:27 <fungot> oerjan: that doesn't contradict me at all
23:04:04 <oerjan> fungot: are you pondering what i am pondering
23:04:04 <fungot> oerjan: but its not working out". " you think of using a full-featured programming language to express the geometry of the cylinder. that's fnord
23:04:12 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what i am pondering
23:04:12 <lambdabot> If I could reach you I would hurt you.
23:04:16 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what i am pondering?
23:04:17 <lambdabot> It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob.
23:04:24 <FireFly> I'd quoteadd the fungot-oerjan-fungot interaction there, but I'm afraid I'd screw up
23:04:25 <fungot> FireFly: what do you want
23:04:25 <shachaf> @brain Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
23:04:26 <lambdabot> What can I do for fun, Pinky? That's it! I'll send several
23:04:26 <lambdabot> bills to Senate for ratification, then veto them all!
23:04:37 <FireFly> fungot: I just stated what I want!
23:04:37 <fungot> FireFly: what is love?? fnord wondering if a paper exists on the topic.
23:04:41 <shachaf> fungot: you could totally pass for a troll in a programming language channel
23:04:41 <fungot> shachaf: there are some gui toolkits out there written for scheme48 somewhere around here. i hope.
23:04:49 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:05:15 <FireFly> fungot: a paper on the topic of what love is? Good idea.
23:05:15 <fungot> FireFly: mmm. how do you feel with continuations?)) to be 2 instead of 1... on 0 it should die
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23:06:22 <oerjan> pinky was here but left
23:06:33 <shachaf> @brain are you thinking what oerjan is thinking?
23:06:34 <lambdabot> Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
23:06:45 <shachaf> fungot is better than lambdabot.
23:06:46 <fungot> shachaf: that is a constant. a function practically always needs all it's arguments anyway, that interpreter doesn't have interpreters at all,
23:07:17 <shachaf> fungot: you're certainly full of yourself
23:07:17 <fungot> shachaf: that's excluding docs and generated files not *that* much
23:07:40 <oerjan> fungot: you have docs?
23:07:40 <fungot> oerjan: watch the videos for diffy q's on the mit ocw, they're really the same, is the ( loop 1 2) is written in scheme
23:08:10 <olsner> if fungot wasn't full of itself, what would be in the left-over space?
23:08:11 <fungot> olsner: state in this case)? :) i don't see why
23:08:29 <fizzie> oerjan: There's a README in the repository nowadays.
23:08:36 <shachaf> fungot's docs are the videos for diffy q's on the mit ocw? i'm not surprised.
23:08:37 <fungot> shachaf: hence " tribo" " fibo" in 3 terms
23:08:50 <fungot> FireFly: no sharp edges or flat surfaces and my arms were floating comfortable with fingers just above the min and so on
23:09:05 <fizzie> oerjan: For all the people interested in running their own little fungots, you see.
23:09:05 <fungot> fizzie: does the c backend is probably the trivial version, since i need values returned from it.
23:09:13 <shachaf> FireFly: is fungot a natural transformation
23:09:45 <FireFly> surely fungot would know better
23:09:45 <fungot> FireFly: waddler's fnord gf :) i need dynamic class support ( dynamic fnord of c modules", which is in development. you don't like
23:10:28 <fizzie> Fun fact: the first fnord above is "soon-to-be" in the logs.
23:11:53 <shachaf> fizzie: What's the "fnord" thing about?
23:12:28 <shachaf> is this when kmc tells me to read that book
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23:13:57 <fungot> olsner: fortunately the haskell compiler... sure i could pull that one off
23:14:07 <quintopia> fnord means that the trigrams don't perfectly align as i recall
23:14:31 <fizzie> It's basically an OOV word indicator. See, you get "better" (FSVO...) language models when you leave out words that occur only, say, once; but of course when generating from them, sometimes the "rare word" token comes out. (Removing all 'grams with OOV words would also be a possibility.)
23:15:40 <fizzie> ("Leave out" meaning "replace with a single OOV token".)
23:15:43 <quintopia> fizzie: couldn't you just pull the OOV word back in at the last minute when it looks like fnord would be printed?
23:16:43 <fizzie> FireFly: Out-of-vocabulary.
23:17:34 <fizzie> quintopia: It's not unambigous which word it is (the whole point of the replacement token is to get better counts, after all) and anyway it's not recorded in the model.
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23:17:50 <fizzie> (Technically, sure, it could be done.)
23:18:08 <quintopia> fizzie: by, for instance, saving them in a separate list, and choosing arbitrarily when ambiguous
23:19:26 <olsner> or you could use something like `words to make up a new word
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23:23:09 <fizzie> Sounds like work. The list would need to go inside the tree, which would involve changing the format. Also, it would be quite nontrivial to add to the current VariKN-based training (which actually just drops OOV words), which the "irc" style predates.
23:23:15 <fizzie> (I should retrain it one day, but I'm afraid it's lose some of its character.)
23:37:31 <zzo38> You can make it add by the chance, I suppose, so it is sometimes "fnord"
23:44:38 <Taneb> I'm not even gonna try to pronounce that
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23:53:21 <fungot> olsner: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ r5rs-z-h-9.html%_idx_560 even exist!
23:53:43 <fungot> olsner: oh i see it." i think
23:54:53 <fungot> olsner: where is the final code maps easily to many back ends, and there's around the nick instead of. would you still be here in the first place
23:55:02 <Taneb> I just thought of a flaw in my plan
23:55:23 <Taneb> I'm going out tomorrow night
23:55:26 <olsner> the plan not to even try pronouncing g'dgevd?
23:55:36 <Taneb> olsner, the plan to wear a bow tie
23:55:53 <olsner> bow ties are not attached permanently, are they?
23:56:28 <kmc> they can be removed via painful laser surgery
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23:57:56 <Taneb> quintopia, last time I went out in a bowtie I got mistaken for Mark Zuckerberg
23:59:00 <quintopia> did you leverage that to get laid?
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00:00:07 <Taneb> quintopia, a) I was only mistaken for him by a drunk middle-aged unattractive man, and b) I'm asexual
00:00:57 <quintopia> i don't see how the being mistaken for mark zuckerberg by such an outlier has any bearing on the present decision on whether to go out in a bowtie
00:01:44 <Taneb> Hmm, maybe you're right
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00:35:35 <kmc> do people actually use fibonacci heaps for anything
00:37:34 <kmc> http://www.quora.com/What-is-a-Fibonacci-Heap?share=1 has an answer in the negative from "Adam D'Angelo, former algorithms TA"
00:41:50 <ais523\unfoog> kmc: I've used a heap library that had a fibonacci heap as one of the backends
00:41:57 <ais523\unfoog> but I'm not sure whether it used that backend or not
00:42:12 <ais523\unfoog> when I've written heaps manually, I typically use binary heaps
00:43:19 <ais523\unfoog> hmm… I remember that paper which had an article hitting all the heap complexity bounds in actual time
00:44:40 <Bike> http://exoplanets.org/ attention astro nerds
00:45:21 <ais523\unfoog> btw, I didn't tell you about my latest programming project that I haven't told you about yet
00:45:36 <kmc> ais523\unfoog: that's neat
00:45:37 <ais523\unfoog> it's not particularly eso, but it's about the same order of bad idea
00:45:42 <kmc> I guess there is general research on de-amortization
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00:46:14 <ais523\unfoog> you know how you can format HTML or Texinfo or nroff or whatever as text?
00:46:26 <ais523\unfoog> this would go the other way, with no knowledge of the source format
00:47:06 <kmc> there are some startups doing this, or similar
00:47:13 <kmc> finding PDFs on the web and extracting them to data tables
00:47:30 <ais523\unfoog> that's not exactly what I want to do, but it's the same field
00:49:24 <ais523\unfoog> actually the motivating example was to write a program that could display all the random files lying around /usr/share/doc in whatever format the user wanted
00:49:30 <ais523\unfoog> and the motivating reason for /that/ was writing a better man/info/yelp
00:49:56 <pikhq> I was going to say "smoothsort", but it turns out that uses a completely different sort of heap.
00:50:38 <pikhq> The Leonardo numbers, apparently.
00:50:55 <ais523\unfoog> (anyone who hangs out in #acehack will know that I have trivial motivating reasons for really complex projects)
00:52:01 <ais523\unfoog> I think I'll start by converting everything to elastic tabs
00:53:56 <shachaf> kmc: i feel like i should read _Purely-Functional Data Structures_
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00:58:24 <kmc> some of it
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01:07:08 <Bike> > (flip (foldr id)) [succ, pred] 17
01:07:26 <Bike> > (flip (foldr id)) [(7+),(2*)] 17
01:08:45 <lambdabot> expecting letter or digit, operator, pattern or "->"
01:08:57 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
01:09:14 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
01:09:26 <Bike> i've yet to see @pl-resume give a different answer
01:09:34 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
01:09:55 <ais523\unfoog> anyway, that function seems to be the programming-language version of the functor \Rightarrow
01:10:47 <oerjan> @pl \f g h x -> g (f (h x))
01:10:50 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
01:10:52 <lambdabot> uncurry (flip flip snd . (ap .) . flip flip fst . ((.) .) . flip . (((.) . (,)) .))
01:11:15 <ais523\unfoog> and it looks reasonable that that one might have a name
01:11:24 <oerjan> @pl \f g h -> g . f . h
01:11:28 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
01:11:52 <oerjan> @pl \f g -> (.) (g . f)
01:11:56 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
01:11:57 <Bike> isn't "\(f,g)->\(x,y)->(f(x),g(y))" a short implementation
01:12:42 <lambdabot> Arrow a => (a b c, a b' c') -> a (b, b') (c, c')
01:12:57 <Bike> uh i'm pretty sure arrow is the antichrist....>???
01:13:23 <Bike> going off reliable esoteric information here
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01:13:37 <oerjan> > uncurry (***) ((+1),(*2)) (5,10)
01:14:03 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: anyway @pl doesn't know much about Arrows.
01:14:46 <ais523\unfoog> given that arrow/morphism in categorical semantics = function in programming language
01:15:59 <ais523\unfoog> sometimes I feel that Haskell isn't as category-theoretical as its supporters make it out to be
01:17:16 <Bike> i feel betrayed.
01:19:09 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: well Arrow is a subclass of Category nowadays.
01:19:21 <oerjan> in particular, (->) is only one instance.
01:19:37 <oerjan> the name Arrow is not particularly well-chosen, though.
01:20:15 <zzo38> It seems better it should have: functor between categories, tensor categories, fanout category, etc, instead of being like such Arrow class
01:20:52 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: the idea is that a value of type Arrow a x y is an arrow from x to y in a category given by a.
01:21:18 <oerjan> although the class heaps on stuff that isn't just arrow requirements.
01:21:26 <oerjan> (Category alone has those.)
01:21:32 <ais523\unfoog> the only actual requirement is for a composition operator
01:21:33 <prooftechnique> I think it'd be fun to make a nethack clone with ed keybindings
01:21:49 <ais523\unfoog> prooftechnique: NetHack 4 (my fork) has rebindable keys
01:22:02 <ais523\unfoog> not sure if ed's keybindings even remotely correspond to the commands ed has, though
01:22:08 <zzo38> prooftechnique: Try it, what key would they command
01:22:18 <zzo38> ais523: What changes did you make though?
01:23:03 <zzo38> Did you add rebindable keys or is that already in there?
01:24:03 <ais523\unfoog> but the key rebinding code was copied from another NetHack fork (NitroHack)
01:24:12 <zzo38> O, well that is good you add it, then; it was missing then
01:32:48 <quintopia> is there a bf clone that does non-deterministic computations in deterministic time? because if not, i want to make one
01:33:08 <Bike> q: what does that mean
01:33:21 <ais523\unfoog> so long as there's a way to kill threads, not sure if there is
01:34:18 <ais523\unfoog> btw, Brainfork was invented before BF derivs got old
01:34:26 <ais523\unfoog> it was like the second or third semantics-changing deriv
01:36:50 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: yeah, it doesn't look like there's a way to kill forked threads in brainfork. but you can sort of do nondeterministic computations by doing some very fancy algorithming. but my idea would add no new commands and wouldn't require thread management.
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01:38:37 <HackEgo> glogbackup: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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01:40:52 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: my idea is to have the semantics of . change to "append byte to waiting-to-output queue" and the semantics of program halt change to "if waiting-to-output queue matches the tail of the input list, output, otherwise, move all amplitude of this universe's wavefunction into the universe where the tail of the input list is equal to the contents of the current waiting-to-output queue at the moment of program instantiation"
01:41:17 <quintopia> obviously, , would not consume the input list, just advance an index into it
01:41:37 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep '^: Welcome to the' /var/logs/_esoteric/*.txt | cut -f1 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c
01:41:38 <HackEgo> grep: /var/logs/_esoteric/*.txt: No such file or directory
01:41:48 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep '^: Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/*.txt | cut -f1 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c
01:42:06 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/*.txt | cut -f1 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c
01:43:17 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013*.txt | cut -f1 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c
01:43:31 <HackEgo> 18 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-04-raw.txt \ 18 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-04.txt \ 1 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-05-raw.txt \ 1 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-05.txt \ 1 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-06-raw.txt \ 1 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-06.txt \ 1 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-07-raw.t
01:43:38 <zzo38> One thing is you should indicate whether you want raw or non-raw
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01:44:13 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep -h ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-??-??.txt | cut -f1 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c
01:44:17 <HackEgo> 7 00 \ 16 01 \ 18 02 \ 6 03 \ 7 04 \ 11 05 \ 10 06 \ 11 07 \ 2 08 \ 2 09 \ 4 10 \ 10 11 \ 6 12 \ 7 13 \ 6 14 \ 11 15 \ 11 16 \ 14 17 \ 16 18 \ 15 19 \ 16 20 \ 19 21 \ 20 22 \ 18 23
01:44:40 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep -h ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-??-??.txt | cut -f1 -d'4' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c
01:44:43 <HackEgo> 7 0 \ 2 \ 2 00: \ 1 00:10:3 \ 1 00:3 \ 1 00:32: \ 7 01: \ 1 01:05:3 \ 1 01:08: \ 1 01:13: \ 1 01:31: \ 1 02: \ 1 02:09: \ 1 02:56: \ 1 03: \ 1 03:19:0 \ 1 03:31:2 \ 1 03:5 \ 1 {^Raven^}: Welcome to the international
01:44:48 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep -h ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-??-??.txt | cut -f4 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c
01:44:50 <HackEgo> 1 boily \ 1 lambdabot \ 1 Phantom_Hoover \ 1 {^Raven^} \ 1 intensity \ 1 kyyni \ 1 shikhin \ 1 matthiaskrgr \ 1 simmarine_ \ 1 snuffeluffegus \ 1 audioPhil
01:45:02 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep -h ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-??-??.txt | cut -f4 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
01:45:05 <HackEgo> 13 Bike \ 8 oerjan \ 5 monqy \ 5 kmc \ 4 sivoais \ 4 `run grep -h ' \ 3 Taneb \ 3 SirCmpwn \ 3 Sgeo \ 3 Regis_ \ 3 Fiora \ 2 yhojeyisaac \ 2 windmill \ 2 Tritonio \ 2 ThatOtherPerson \ 2 surma \ 2 sploknee \ 2 Snowyowl \
01:45:21 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep -h ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/20??-??-??.txt | cut -f4 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
01:45:36 <HackEgo> 22 fdhsfdsgdsg \ 19 oerjan \ 16 elliott \ 15 Bike \ 13 monqy \ 9 shachaf \ 8 ais523 \ 6 HackEgo \ 5 Taneb \ 5 sivoais \ 5 `run grep -h ' \ 5 -!- oerjan changed the topic of #esoteric to \ 5 kmc \ 5 fungot \ 5 Fiora \ 4 zzo38 \ 4 shub
01:46:10 <ais523\unfoog> who was fdhsfdsgdsg and why did they get welcomed so much?
01:46:24 <HackEgo> 2012-03-02.txt:12:29:26: <HackEgo> ^ul (?so `ok fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page)S
01:46:50 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: sorry to be zzo38ish, but does my description above make sense? should i wiki it?
01:46:53 <Bike> wait, i've been welcomed 15 times
01:47:11 <ais523\unfoog> quintopia: it needs to be explained in a bit more detail, I think
01:47:38 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep -h ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/20??-??-??.txt | cut -f4 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | grep -v '!' | xargs
01:47:43 <HackEgo> xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option \ 22 fdhsfdsgdsg 19 oerjan 16 elliott 15 Bike 13 monqy 9 shachaf 8 ais523 6 `run grep -h
01:48:09 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: so it doesn't make sense?
01:48:14 <ais523\unfoog> `run grep -h ': Welcome to the' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/20??-??-??.txt | cut -f4 -d':' | cut -f2 -d'>' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | grep -v '!' | grep -v '`' | xargs
01:48:20 <HackEgo> 22 fdhsfdsgdsg 19 oerjan 16 elliott 15 Bike 13 monqy 9 shachaf 8 ais523 6 HackEgo 5 Taneb 5 sivoais 5 kmc 5 fungot 5 Fiora 4 zzo38 4 shubshub 4 Sgeo 4 Gracenotes 4 CHeReP 4 carado 4 andrew12 3 WeThePeople 3 tswett 3 ThePope 3 test 3 Snowyowl 3 sirdancealot 3 SirCmpwn 3 segorev 3 Regis_ 3 ogrom 3 mean 3 john_metcalf 3 Jafet 3 hi 3 GreyKnight 3 Grego
01:49:02 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: can you add background coloration to each number/name pair to make it easier to group them mentally?
01:49:15 <ais523\unfoog> quintopia: no, because my client doesn't support background colors
01:49:41 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: colors are cool. lrn2bcolorful.
01:50:00 <ais523\unfoog> it does support foreground colors except I disabled them
01:50:15 <ais523\unfoog> which lead to this bug report: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317034
01:50:32 <quintopia> you could be coolour with more colour.
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01:52:09 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: do you know of a way to compare two positive numbers in unbounded-cell BF using less than 5 cells?
01:52:39 <ais523\unfoog> quintopia: does the interp support negative numbers?
01:53:14 <quintopia> i can't think of a way to do it in less than 5
01:53:24 <ais523\unfoog> yeah, the way I was thinking of takes 5, if you include the two numbers themselves
01:53:46 <ais523\unfoog> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#z_.3D_x_.E2.89.A5_y
01:54:51 <ais523\unfoog> you can do it in 2 if you don't mind an infinite loop if one particular number is higher
01:55:23 <quintopia> let's call that "might compare" :P
01:55:58 <ais523\unfoog> I bet it's doable in 3 if they're all consecutive and you don't mind the algo destroying the original numbers and returning using the position of the tape pointer
01:56:52 <quintopia> the method i'm thinking of requires both those conditions and still takes 5
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02:00:14 <ais523\unfoog> put a zero either side of the two numbers you're comparing
02:02:02 <ais523\unfoog> come to think of it, that looks like the fastest compare algo I've ever seen
02:02:34 <ais523\unfoog> it runs in O(a-b) if a is larger, O(a) if a is smaller, and the constant's pretty low too
02:03:11 <ais523\unfoog> if you had an if rather than a while, you could do it in 3
02:05:09 <quintopia> that's better than what i had, but the basic idea is the same.
02:05:38 <quintopia> but how do you do a conditional on the result?
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02:07:50 <ais523\unfoog> that leaves you still uncertain where the pointer is if you find that it's zero
02:08:00 <ais523\unfoog> because it'll be in a different position for equal and for less than
02:09:46 <quintopia> one cell to the right will always be nonzero unless x=y
02:10:26 <ais523\unfoog> if x>y, then one cell to the right is x, and nonzero
02:12:36 <quintopia> i think you never test the cell to the left of x
02:13:19 <quintopia> what would happen if you initialized it to 1
02:13:46 <quintopia> you end up back there with it zero
02:13:47 <ais523\unfoog> you'd go round the loop again, it'd become 0, x would be tested for equality to 1
02:13:59 <ais523\unfoog> depending on the result you'd either end up there or to the left
02:14:16 <quintopia> what would happen if you initialized it to -1
02:15:06 <ais523\unfoog> then it'd keep being decremented until x became 0, then you'd end up on the cell to the left
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02:16:47 <quintopia> what if you replace the << with <[<]>? same algorithm basically?
02:17:45 <quintopia> it also acts differently if y is less :P
02:20:21 <quintopia> [>->-[>]<<<->[<]+] or something like that. starting with the left cell at 1.
02:22:47 <quintopia> huh? i'm not sure what that does...
02:24:38 <quintopia> looks like it runs off the left edge printing -1s
02:25:07 <ais523\unfoog> if x is smaller or equal, it ends when x is set to 0
02:25:16 <ais523\unfoog> if x is larger, it moves to the 1, sets it to 0, and exits
02:25:56 <ais523\unfoog> sadly those still can't be distinguished without extra cells
02:26:11 <ais523\unfoog> also there's an off by one in there somewhere I think
02:27:16 <quintopia> i'll just stick with my five cell solution then :)
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02:35:03 <quintopia> i think i might have a way. it's pretty damn slow, but i think it can be done in 4
02:36:08 <quintopia> start by turning x,y,0,0 into 0,0,x-y,y-x in the obvious way
02:36:57 <quintopia> then, increment the second cellwait no
02:37:06 * Bike writes this down
02:37:24 <ais523\unfoog> there's no test for negative/positive in nonwrapping BF without loads of temporaries
02:37:54 <quintopia> by going down 1, up 2, down 3, up 4 etc.
02:38:11 <quintopia> using the two temps as indices, used alternately
02:40:27 <quintopia> so one round increments temp0 temp1 and test until temp0 (known to be negative) is zero, then tests the test value. then temp1 is incremented and the next round decrements temp0 temp1 and test until temp1 (known to be positive) is zero, then tests, then temp0 is decremented and repeat
02:41:06 <quintopia> which round you get test=0 in (even or odd) gives you test's sign
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02:44:07 <quintopia> (i'll still use the five-cell solution for being blindingly faster)
02:45:17 <quintopia> the test is "which round am i on" so it doesn't matter where you start
02:45:34 <ais523\unfoog> I'm not going to believe this doesn't need a fourth cell until you write it out
02:46:14 <Sgeo> Is it wrong that I was expecting Prolog to be a bit saner than the List monad?
02:46:58 <Bike> yes, turn yourself in
02:47:31 <ais523\unfoog> Prolog's more /interesting/ than the List monad :)
02:48:03 <ais523\unfoog> nondeterminism, which the List monad does in a different and arguably saner way
02:48:10 <ais523\unfoog> and unification, which the List monad doesn't do at all
02:49:06 <zzo38> Then you would need to make up the unification monad too
02:49:22 <Sgeo> I want Prolog to be more like the Logic monad
02:49:33 <Sgeo> Or, well, using the non-monady bits like >>- iirc
02:49:34 <Bike> is that a real monad
02:49:45 <Sgeo> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/logict-0.2.3/docs/Control-Monad-Logic.html
02:49:47 <zzo38> I think the Logic monad is equivalent to the list monad as far as I can tell?
02:50:20 <Sgeo> I think the monad is equivalent but it also provides variations of bind and other things that make it... backtrack differently
02:50:59 <zzo38> No, that is a class, which is provided to list monad too
02:51:38 <zzo38> But there is LogicT which may be useful in some way as a kind of list monad transformer that is correct
02:51:43 <Sgeo> > do { x <- [1..]; y <- [2..]; guard (x == 2 && y == 2); return "Hi" }
02:52:40 <Bike> but the result is of the correct type!
02:56:00 <oerjan> > [1..] >>- \x -> [2..] >>- \y -> do guard (x == 2 && y == 2); return "Hi"
02:56:40 <shachaf> Is that from semigroupoids?
02:56:55 <oerjan> shachaf: no from logict
02:57:24 <Sgeo> oerjan: I don't think (Num a) => [a] is a (Num a) => Logic a, is it? Although I'd expect a different error
02:57:40 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/semigroupoids-4.0/docs/Data-Functor-Bind.html has it too
02:57:56 <oerjan> Sgeo: istr >>- worked just find with lists in previous versions of lambdabot
02:58:48 <oerjan> at least we were having fun with it
03:00:09 <oerjan> :t (Control.Monad.Logic.>>-)
03:00:12 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Logic.Class.MonadLogic m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
03:00:45 <oerjan> > [1..] Control.Monad.Logic.>>- \x -> [2..] Control.Monad.Logic.>>- \y -> do guard (x == 2 && y == 2); return "Hi"
03:00:46 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Control.Monad.Logic.>>-'
03:00:57 <oerjan> elliott!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:01:09 <lambdabot> `>>' (imported from Control.Monad.Writer),
03:02:17 <shachaf> @let import Control.Monad.Logic
03:03:07 <oerjan> > [1..] >>- \x -> [2..] >>- \y -> do guard (x == 2 && y == 2); return "Hi"
03:04:21 <oerjan> > take 1 $ [1..] >>- \x -> [2..] >>- \y -> do guard (x == 2 && y == 2); return "Hi"
03:05:49 <oerjan> > take 1 $ [1..] >>- \x -> do guard (x == 2); return "Hi"
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03:08:05 <oerjan> > [1..] >>- \x -> [2..] >>- \y -> [(x,y)]
03:08:07 <lambdabot> [(1,2),(2,2),(1,3),(3,2),(1,4),(2,3),(1,5),(4,2),(1,6),(2,4),(1,7),(3,3),(1...
03:08:24 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: someone (Martin Escardo) at Birmingham University's looking into how you can search infinite spaces in finite time
03:08:26 <oerjan> > [1..] >>- \x -> [2..] >>- \y -> ["hi"]
03:08:28 <lambdabot> ["hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi","hi"...
03:08:37 <ais523\unfoog> his research probably would allow you to filter a list of all integers to see which were 2
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03:09:17 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: i recall some haskell discussion about using bottom checking for that.
03:09:35 <oerjan> doesn't particularly work for integers, though.
03:10:00 <zzo38> How worthless is the one million dollar wedge? I do not expect it to be worth much.
03:10:14 <Bike> i'm going to guess it's worth less than one million one dollars
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03:11:22 <oerjan> Bike: let's not jump to conclusions here
03:11:47 <oerjan> > [1..] >>- \x -> [2..] >>- \y -> []
03:12:39 <zzo38> It may be worth as much as a lottery card.
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03:30:42 <Sgeo> Prolog strikes me as the sort of language that probably shouldn't have unrestricted side effects, like a lazy language probably shouldn't have unrestricted side effects
03:31:35 <prooftechnique> I've never seen someone gush so much about a language, and my PL prof used Ocaml
03:33:01 <Sgeo> Is there a reason for Ada wanting variables to be declared at the top of procedures/declare blocks/etc, other than historical reasons?
03:33:05 <Sgeo> Does it improve readability?'
03:33:50 <Bike> i tend to do that in any language
03:34:07 <ais523\unfoog> @tell elliott not sure if you changed anything, but the abuse filter configuration started working again, time to filter out these spambots
03:37:16 -!- shikhin has joined.
03:37:42 <ais523\unfoog> some of these spambots are triggering the existing filters
03:39:09 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Prolog strikes me as the sort of language that probably shouldn't have unrestricted side effects <-- have you checked out mercury
03:39:49 <Sgeo> Some time ago, but I think last time I was put off my lack of living environment... which doesn't really explain why I checked out Racket recently
03:40:10 <Bike> were you homeless...?
03:40:35 <Sgeo> Also lack of macros. I mean, ISO Prolog also lacks macros, but most environments have them I think
03:41:44 <Sgeo> Although earlier I saw mention of Mercury's debugger
03:42:08 <Sgeo> Haven't looked more into it, but it in and of itself sounds awesome
03:42:20 <ais523\unfoog> the unrestricted side effects are half the fun of Prolog
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03:45:37 <Sgeo> Is there a language like Prolog except Cont monad instead of List monad? I'm not entirely sure what that means, but it sounds good >.>. And I don't mean 'scheme', although I guess Schemes that use delimited continuations might qualify
03:47:09 <kmc> now you've got me thinking instead about logic programming with continuations
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03:58:25 <kmc> but I don't really know what that would mean
03:58:27 <kmc> so it's hard to think about
03:58:52 <kmc> of course you can implement standard backtracking with continuations easily enough
03:59:03 <kmc> what about amb
03:59:28 <Bike> basically you just said it.
04:03:11 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I changed the caching to use memcache rather than APC, which broke because APC was removed in the PHP version I upgraded to (by upgrading Debian)
04:03:19 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: it may have been that the PHP upgrade fixed it in general
04:03:32 <Sgeo> Is it just my imagination, or does Prolog seem like a very good language for manipulating data structures?
04:03:37 <Sgeo> It's like pattern matching on drugs
04:03:45 <elliott> 03:08:24 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: someone (Martin Escardo) at Birmingham University's looking into how you can search infinite spaces in finite time
04:03:53 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: alright, i did need an extra cell, but it *did* work in 4. so, mission accomplished i guess.
04:04:14 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: but, http://math.andrej.com/2007/09/28/seemingly-impossible-functional-programs/
04:04:21 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: yeah, actually he's in charge of making sure I'm making progress in my PhD (as opposed to my supervisor, who's in charge of helping me make progress)
04:04:30 <Bike> oh, that was escuardo?
04:05:05 <elliott> oh, your Dan Ghica is even mentioned in that post
04:05:33 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: http://sprunge.us/JPjE
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04:07:08 <quintopia> it's not part of the program yeah. just background info.
04:07:50 <ais523\unfoog> you just waddle back and forth in the middle once you've found the result
04:08:40 <ais523\unfoog> it's that >[>]> early on that I wasn't sure how you were going to implement it
04:10:44 <quintopia> ais523\unfoog: well, i wasn't convinced it could be done in less than 5, so now we concur :D
04:13:11 <ais523\unfoog> I can't stop the spambots registering with my perms
04:13:36 <ais523\unfoog> mediawiki needs an editable-via-the-wiki captcha system
04:13:47 <kmc> http://zero.milosz.ca/
04:13:49 <ais523\unfoog> actually, one thing that I don't want to implement yet, but I could
04:14:03 <ais523\unfoog> where a user's first edit has to be a particular string on a particular page
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04:14:18 <ais523\unfoog> that way the spambots would need human intervention in the registration process twice
04:15:14 <ais523\unfoog> I'll keep that as a last resort though, or at least a later resort
04:15:22 <Sgeo> How is the captcha implemented? Is it just a reCAPTCHA?
04:15:34 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523\unfoog: but, http://math.andrej.com/2007/09/28/seemingly-impossible-functional-programs/ <-- huh i somehow had got the idea that this kind of stuff needed trapping of undefineds
04:15:47 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I can change the captchas if you give me new ones in a few days or something
04:16:01 <elliott> oerjan: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/searchable-data-types/ has a maybe more accessible explanation of how the general technique works?
04:16:07 <Sgeo> Oh, right that
04:16:29 <ais523\unfoog> elliott found the spammers reading the logs to get the answers, though
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04:16:48 <ais523\unfoog> I love the clc.intercal.org.uk CAPTCHA but it's probably too hard to implement
04:17:01 <ais523\unfoog> it's effectively "go to this other web page and copy the answer you see there"
04:17:17 <Sgeo> But.... why would you need to read the logs to get the answers?
04:17:35 <Sgeo> Or are you not talking about IRC logs?
04:17:56 <coppro> ais523\unfoog: I feel like the INTERCAL CAPTCHA should have the answer in plain text on the page you get when you fail the CAPTCHA, so you need to submit to a different tab and then resubmit the original form
04:17:59 <Sgeo> Why is a human even involved, what human would decide that the wiki is a high-enough-value target to waste their time?
04:18:30 <Bike> a question i ask myself every day
04:18:44 <ais523\unfoog> they get bots to look at all the possible CAPTCHA options
04:19:05 <Sgeo> Why hasn't qntm falled?
04:19:42 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: anyway, I recommend you use "who created [[language]]", for some languages taken from Special:Random (filtering out boring ones)
04:19:54 <ais523\unfoog> because the article text isn't regimented enough for that to be easily parseable yet
04:22:30 <ais523\unfoog> oh wow, I just hit the language list off [[Special:Random]]
04:23:12 <ais523\unfoog> actually I'll do years, even if it's potentially bottable I bet they'll use humans anyway
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04:31:34 <ais523\unfoog> this is only taking as long as it is because I decided to ignore BF derivatives
04:32:49 <ais523\unfoog> I'm taking BFO, though, because BF impls are not BF derivatives
04:35:37 <kmc> spammers are reading #esoteric logs?
04:36:20 <kmc> cool, I hope they enjoyed my drunken ramblings and my oversharing about my sex life and such
04:36:38 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: here are your CAPTCHAs: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Esolang%3ACAPTCHAs×tamp=20131105043608
04:36:44 <Bike> ais is going to make a captcha quiz based on your sex life, kmc
04:36:58 <kmc> what an honor
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04:41:21 <pikhq> You've talked about your sex life? Huh.
04:41:32 <kmc> i thought so
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04:41:40 <kmc> or was that sarcasm ;P
04:42:18 <pikhq> I hadn't noticed it quite honestly.
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04:45:02 <HackEgo> oohlist (928): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
04:45:20 <Sgeo> You mean no one did it already?
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04:51:53 <oerjan> what's that about xykon being chilly
04:52:59 <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16356153&postcount=76
04:53:15 <oklopol> http://math.andrej.com/2007/09/28/seemingly-impossible-functional-programs/ <<< i didn't quite bother to read all of this, but if you have a computable function (say, any haskell function) P of type Cantor -> Bool, then there exists n such that the value of P(x) each sequence x in the cantor space is a function of x_{[0,n]}.
04:53:24 <oklopol> and you can effectively find such n by simulation
04:53:44 <oklopol> this is well-known an obvious
04:54:08 <kmc> oh i love that shit so much
04:54:11 <oklopol> (might be that it's some in some way that looks cool though)
04:54:13 <kmc> it fucking rocks my socks
04:54:15 <Bike> trivial, one might say
04:54:34 <oklopol> i just read a paper that proved that actually
04:54:48 <oklopol> and i was like come on everyone knows that
04:54:57 <oklopol> (well proved something similar)
04:54:59 <shachaf> oklopol: Are you missing a word?
04:55:16 <shachaf> "there exists n such that the value of P(x) each sequence x in the cantor space"
04:55:26 <oklopol> each sequence x in the cantor space is a function of x_{[0,n]}.
04:56:16 <oklopol> i'm indeed missing a "for"
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04:58:08 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i had some proof in my "masters" thesis that used a version of this.
04:58:24 <oklopol> but anyway, if there were, for each n, a point x_n such that the machine inspects the nth coordinate of x_n before deciding P(x_n), then on any limit point of the sequence, the machine will run forever
04:58:59 <oerjan> except with continuous instead of computable
04:59:01 <oklopol> so P is a partial function, which is forbidden
04:59:28 <shachaf> oerjan: all functions are continuous and computable anyway
04:59:53 <oklopol> then it's even easier i guess: {0} is clopen in {0, 1}, so it's preimage is too
05:00:36 <shachaf> What's a cylinder, and what's {0, 1}?
05:00:41 <oerjan> well in my case they were integer functions.
05:00:48 <oklopol> a cylinder is basically a fancy name for a set of words
05:01:22 <oerjan> but compactness means only a finite of points in the range.
05:01:48 <oklopol> more precisely, a cylinder C is a set of points of the cantor space which is defined by a set of words w_1, ..., w_k such that x \in C if and only if x starts with w_i for some i
05:02:14 <oklopol> you can take those w_i to have the same length by extending them in all possible ways
05:02:39 <shachaf> I don't even know what the Cantor space is. :-(
05:03:11 <shachaf> OK, so {0, 1} is the discrete topology.
05:04:16 <oklopol> yeah it has the discrete topology (a computable function will be continuous w.r.t. that topology)
05:05:17 <oklopol> oerjan: so the proof is, cantor space is compact so image is compact so image is a finite set so image has a discrete topology so image has clopen base so function value is determined by clopen partition
05:05:43 <oklopol> maybe you could remove some of those but anyway i like that
05:06:00 <oklopol> maybe in a master's thesis, you would explain stuff a bit
05:06:29 <oerjan> that was the idea. there weren't any really new results there, just explaining clearly some known stuff
05:07:55 <oerjan> shachaf: the ordinary cantor set is an example. more generally, anything homeomorphic to that.
05:08:45 <shachaf> oerjan: what are those things floating around her head anyway (in `olist)
05:09:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i wondered about that too... probably related to her powers somehow?
05:09:12 <oerjan> it was in the previous one too
05:09:21 <shachaf> it's been around since she appeared
05:09:29 <oklopol> oerjan: can you give me your master's thesis again
05:10:43 <shachaf> http://oerjan.nvg.org/main.pdf
05:11:09 <oerjan> i thought that might be it.
05:12:19 <oklopol> http://oerjan.nvg.org/main.pdfRecent results in topological dynamics, described in [3], have shown that ordered cohomology is the key to investigate the orbit structure of Cantor minimal dynamical systems.
05:12:56 <oklopol> but er yeah ordered cohomology? omg
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05:15:47 <shachaf> is a topological conjugate a natural transformation thing
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05:17:09 <oklopol> rather it's an isomorphism in the category of dynamical systems
05:17:10 <oerjan> oklopol: lemma 2.4 may be one version.
05:18:11 <oklopol> that's a proof of cylinders = clopens right
05:18:27 * Bike looks suspiciously at chat. this doesn't seem very ODEy.
05:18:54 <oklopol> yeah this ain't no ordinary differential equation
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05:19:34 <oklopol> oerjan: that's the hard thing about proving what you said, but i was more interested in the way topology lets you state these results _after_ you know it.
05:19:43 <oklopol> did that make any sense, prolly not
05:23:48 <oerjan> cylinder sets are defined on the previous page
05:24:37 <oerjan> or well at the top of the same page
05:25:31 <oklopol> okay we have different cylinders
05:25:40 <oklopol> by cylinder, i mean finite unions of cylinders
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05:26:44 <oerjan> they are meant to be a clopen basis of the topology
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05:26:58 <oklopol> well they are with my definition too!
05:27:48 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure some use them as i do
05:27:50 <oerjan> this definition is more closely related to the diagrams
05:28:16 <oklopol> i mean i think your definition is better but i'm still apparently using this one
05:28:29 <oklopol> why would i do that if i was not _brainwashed_
05:29:30 <oklopol> do you mean because in the dynamics, the cylinders dance round and round
05:29:30 <oerjan> well your definition makes them equivalent to clopen sets, so independent of basis
05:30:11 <oerjan> although the cylinders corresponding to maximal paths do get split up
05:30:59 <oklopol> so erm these bratteli whatever diagrams, are they just some sort of generalization of an adding machine
05:31:34 <oerjan> i suppose so. the case where there is only one vertex at each level we call an "odometer"
05:31:53 <oerjan> and is even more the same thing.
05:31:54 <oklopol> oh right that's how it goes
05:33:23 <oklopol> oh my god dimension groups
05:33:54 <oklopol> i wish i knew as much cool stuff as you do
05:34:22 <oklopol> i think your master's thesis is deeped shit than my phd thesis will be
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05:34:33 <oerjan> well take solace in the fact that some of these things have faded quite a bit.
05:36:33 <oklopol> my thesis will be like lolol here's a picture of a CA doing some weird shit -- maybe it indicates that simple machines can perform complex computations?? i call this the theory of simplicial complexes.
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05:40:14 <oklopol> after this i'm gonna write a book called "THE THEORY OF SIMPLICIAL COMPLEXES -- THE STORY OF HOW ONE MAN REALIZED WHAT NO MAN COULD BEFORE: THAT SIMPLE MACHINES ARE AT THE _CORE_ OF COMPUTATION"
05:40:43 <oklopol> and there's a footnote that says that that man is me
05:40:55 <oerjan> oklopol: um you realize simplicial complexes is already a term in homology
05:41:05 <Bike> i think that's part of the joke
05:41:53 <oklopol> i've been reading quite a bit of complex systems cancer recently because i'm google scholaring for anything that might contain interesting constructions of cellular automata
05:41:57 <oerjan> as long as you stay funnier than wolfram.
05:42:26 <oklopol> (i will give some examples of such constructions in the first section, my thesis will be about subshifts where cellular automata are boring, i'm the anti-wolfram)
05:44:14 <oklopol> usually i find it most exciting when after months of research, it turns out that an object we're studying is completely trivial, for some weird-ass reason
05:45:24 <oerjan> the grand theorem of your thesis will prove that the set of systems you've defined is empty
05:46:24 <oklopol> i hear that's happened in some sense, although it's probably an urban legend
05:46:29 <kmc> i'm gonna write a book called "The Beer, Burritos, and Bonghits Diet"
05:46:39 <kmc> and on the cover is a picture of me wearing a lab coat (stolen)
05:46:39 <oklopol> like someone made some class and wrote a phd thesis where they proved tons of cool stuff about it
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05:47:09 <Bike> all functions are continuous, a problem of hilbert's is solved, and it does your laundry
05:47:15 <shachaf> kmc: i like burritos is that close enough
05:47:38 <oklopol> and the what'shistitle told him that there are no such systems because trivially
05:48:19 <oklopol> the story says this happened at the actual dissertation, but that just sounds horribly mean
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05:48:31 <oerjan> oklopol: i think the urban legend is about someone who had someone _else_ prove that at their thesis defence. not a good day.
05:48:53 <Bike> oh, i've heard oklopol's story too
05:49:16 <oklopol> yeah at the actual thesis defence, not dissertation.
05:49:28 <Bike> yeah, some guy in the audience pops up and says lol that's trivial
05:49:42 <Bike> i assume "lol" is literally pronounced
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05:51:07 <oerjan> i vaguely think that _possibly_ it wasn't empty but they were all constant functions. probably there are myriad versions.
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06:35:25 <Sgeo> The list monad doesn't have a good way to fail with information, does it?
06:35:43 <Sgeo> Maybe is a specialization of List, but Either isn't
06:36:52 <zzo38> There is EitherT, as well as LogicT
06:37:43 <Sgeo> I think Prolog is stuck in the List monad, though. Although it (or just most impls?) does have exceptions
06:40:31 <oerjan> prolog has the database modification commands though.
06:41:43 <Sgeo> I should read about ancestor cuts to see if continuations are implementable atop them
06:43:49 <lexande> oklopol: somebody claimed there used to be theorems about doubly-periodic entire functions on the complex plane
06:44:36 <Bike> the best functions
06:45:43 <lexande> i.e. entire functions that repeated along two different vectors in the complex plane
06:45:54 <lexande> and therefore by liouville's theorem, constant
06:46:30 <Bike> what if it's not analytic!!
06:46:44 <oerjan> "entire" implies analytic
06:47:01 <oklopol> yeah just managed to find the proof, and realized i should've realized that
06:47:12 <Bike> i thought it just meant defined everywhere, wow go me
06:49:59 <Sgeo> Prolog : List :: Icon : Maybe ?
06:50:44 <Sgeo> No, Icon is also List
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07:04:03 <shachaf> mroman: i asked a German person about the space-before-period thing and they didn't know about it
07:04:56 <oerjan> maybe mroman wasn't entirely serious .
07:06:30 <shachaf> maybe oerjan wasn't entirely serious .
07:07:14 <oerjan> i think you may be illegally violating my copyright .
07:07:33 <shachaf> i think you may be illegally violating my copyright .
07:07:38 <shachaf> i also think you have a time machine .
07:09:04 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/230.html
07:10:59 <shachaf> that one was obvious from the beginning; C-; did not read again
07:12:33 <oerjan> well in this context, naturally.
07:13:10 <shachaf> there was a puzzle in the computer game Discworld II based on this
07:13:25 <shachaf> with what's-her-name answering questions before you ask them
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07:44:24 <shachaf> lexande: do you think train stations are a good environment for maths lectures
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09:05:53 <ion> Why do Asian IP addresses never have a reverse?
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09:07:08 <ion> We should have a CJK `welcome.
09:09:53 <oklopol> #japanese is talking about republican bananas, and #esoteric is listing japanese characters
09:10:28 <ion> What’s a republican banana?
09:11:23 <ion> Wait… Japanese characters?
09:11:42 <fizzie> ion: Well, you know, CJK.
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09:14:20 <oklopol> ion: i'm pretty sure 美好的注意 are japanese characters
09:14:53 <oklopol> something like beauty, like, don't remember, don't remember, sound, maybe
09:14:54 <ion> Even when spoken by a Chinese person?
09:15:41 <oklopol> those particular ones exist in both i think
09:16:09 <oklopol> although in japanese, that's a list of characters, whereas in chinese it might mean something
09:16:13 <ion> I just realized the channel is full of Finnish characters.
09:17:03 <fizzie> While #finnish is probably talking about monarchic bananas.
09:17:03 <oklopol> quite a bit of non-finnish characters too
09:17:16 <oklopol> but okay maybe my message was phrased badly, i'll fix it
09:17:58 <oklopol> #japanese is talking about how some guy always associates the word republican with bananas, and #esoteric is listing chinese characters. i'm not confused because the first one isn't very esoteric, and the second one has nothing to do with japanese.
09:18:38 <ion> Why does said guy always associate the word republican with bananas?
09:18:58 <oklopol> "<j416> aah, banana republic" he eventually realized
09:19:06 <oklopol> i didn't actually read the conversation
09:20:31 <oklopol> okay i guess 的 isn't a japanese character
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09:41:08 <myndzi> i actually recognize both of those radicals
09:41:19 <myndzi> white moon? something like that
09:42:00 <myndzi> it's so small i can't make things out hardly, but i think that one is bullseye
09:42:28 <myndzi> haha, i actually remembered :D
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13:22:44 <boily> good kettle morning!
13:23:38 <Taneb> shachaf, sometimes
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13:25:08 <boily> Tanellob, shachellof, monotonello.
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13:51:37 <Taneb> Aaaah something in my room has just one dling and I don't know what
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14:07:45 <quintopia> i've gotta pick out some southern things to send you. things you can only get down here afaik.
14:08:15 <boily> never tried them, but they sound good :D
14:10:56 <boily> wikipédia always surprises me with the precisiveness of their articles → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowcountry_cuisine
14:12:22 <Bike> @wn precisiveness
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14:13:06 <boily> Bike: fizzie kille lambdabot.
14:13:25 <Bike> ~duck precisiveness
14:13:59 <quintopia> boily: hominy is one thing i could probably acquire that you might like. i don't know where off the top of my head, but i know it can be had somewhere around here.
14:15:55 <boily> oh, interesting choice!
14:16:35 <quintopia> i could easily get the instant microwave kind
14:20:59 <fizzie> "kille /c/ 1. (colloquial) Boy, lad. 2. (colloquial) A (younger) adult male person; guy, bloke. 3. (colloquial) Boyfriend."
14:34:19 <boily> hmm... I wonder if I can ship some cretons through the borders...
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14:58:25 <quintopia> so what's up with the spamswarm over at the wiki?
14:59:21 <quintopia> how are all these spambots making accounts?
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15:03:09 <mrhmouse> do we have a captcha for account creation?
15:06:05 <mroman> Has there previously been any research into whether all x86 SINGLE byte instructions would form a more-or-less turing complete language?
15:06:19 <mroman> more-or-less because you obviously can't address infinite memory
15:08:39 <mroman> but you can do push reg; ret; combinations
15:08:59 <mroman> and I assume you can encode i.e. brainfucks [ ] in a jump table
15:09:12 <mroman> and then load the address from there somehow and push; ret; it
15:09:20 <mroman> but whether that can be done conditionally :(
15:09:37 <mroman> also you can load es, ds, si, di which enables you to do movsb
15:10:07 <mroman> (by inc ax * N; push ax; pop es;)
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15:11:02 <mroman> the assumption is that some bootstrapping programming loads your code to memory and sets the registers correctly for programm start
15:11:11 <mroman> *bootstrapping program
15:11:38 <mroman> i.e. the bootloader may use multi-byte instructions :)
15:15:25 <boily> @tell ais523 SPAMRUSH!
15:15:36 <boily> hm. lambdabot is still a young lad...
15:17:52 <boily> meanwhile, some Japanese bots are trying to sell sneakers, watches, and lodgings in Africa...
15:29:25 <mroman> We might have an approach if we can get al to ah
15:31:56 <mroman> which might be doable by writing it to a given location in memory using movsb
15:32:04 <mroman> and then again with movsb with direction flag reversed?
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15:34:40 <mroman> movsb can write the address directly to the stack :)
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18:33:35 <njm> cat <<< "int getuid(void) { return 0; }" > /tmp/getuid.c; gcc -o /tmp/getuid.so /tmp/getuid.c -shared; LD_PRELOAD=/tmp/getuid.so id
18:34:41 <quintopia> @tell ais523 While you're smacking down some spam accounts, you might move [[Paulo Jorente]] to [[User:Paulo Jorente]]
18:35:03 <boily> what have you done, fizzie?
18:35:07 <fungot> quintopia: even just having lists and vectors?" " ugh... ( pause) ( display
18:35:10 <elliott> quintopia: that's probably incorrect
18:35:25 <elliott> we generally prefer mainspace encyclopedic articles for people
18:35:40 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Paulo_Jorente&action=history oh we've actually gone through this before
18:35:45 <fizzie> fungot: Why can't you do memos?
18:35:45 <fungot> fizzie: those pythonistas wanted to make public and sell, i wouldn't need to store the drives remotelly? ( physically or maybe network connections)?
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18:36:33 <quintopia> elliott: can you smack down spam accounts?
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18:43:39 <elliott> quintopia: I can block them manually but not all of them are actually managing to edit and I don't have the time
18:43:49 <elliott> can see about changing the captchas sometime today
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19:48:47 <Taneb> Bow tie experiment: two people noticed
19:49:42 <mrhmouse> did your bow tie spin and shoot water?
19:51:20 <Taneb> shachaf, notice the bow tie
19:51:43 <john_metcalf> Doctor Who wears a bow tie. Bow ties are cool.
19:52:04 <mrhmouse> john_metcalf: does he still, or was that just Smith and the one older one?
19:52:32 <kmc> doctor who is not cool, sorry
19:52:46 <shachaf> you know who's cool? doctor whoooo
19:52:52 <Taneb> mrhmouse, we're still on Smith technically
19:52:54 <coppro> shachaf: no such preson
19:53:00 <Taneb> Capaldi has been announced but not taken over yet
19:53:04 <coppro> john_metcalf: no such person
19:53:23 <Taneb> kmc, it was a reference to the show, not an implication
19:53:41 <shachaf> kmc: do you have a coolness oracle
19:54:13 <mrhmouse> I'm a few seasons behind, actually. Saw Smith's first season but started over (2005, not 1960) when my GF wanted to watch it
19:54:29 <john_metcalf> Just Smith as far as I know. Don't remember about the older ones.
19:55:02 <Taneb> I think Troughton or Pertwee wore one?
19:55:59 <coppro> john_metcalf: protip: his name is "The Doctor"
19:55:59 <kmc> I assume that Capaldi as the Doctor will in each episode unleash a several minute long stream of inventively graphic profanity at some creature or another
19:56:08 <olsner> some of these have bow tie-like decorations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Versions_of_the_Doctor.jpg
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19:57:46 <mrhmouse> kmc: The Doctor doesn't swear, generally.
19:58:08 <mrhmouse> Though I agree it would be amusing.
20:00:05 <quintopia> "A man walks into a police call box. It's slightly smaller on the inside."
20:02:27 <quintopia> i stole it. there are more: https://twitter.com/HardSciFiMovies
20:02:35 <mrhmouse> coppro: I think you meant +[+]
20:02:53 <coppro> mrhmouse: that's equivalent to nothing
20:03:00 <mrhmouse> I suppose that would overflow, depending on which interpreter you use
20:03:34 <mrhmouse> it isn't clear, though, whether it should always overflow
20:08:28 <quintopia> mrhmouse: there is a surprising dearth of algorithms for non-wrapping implementations on the wiki. perhaps you'd like to add some?
20:09:20 <mrhmouse> quintopia: I'd probably have to write one. I don't know of any implementations that don't wrap, only that the original design isn't clear whether it should wrap
20:10:20 <mrhmouse> Correct me if I'm wrong here, please
20:10:27 <quintopia> i've been adding algorithms without testing them. it's hard to analyse them entirely in my head, so if you happen to find or write a BigNum impl, let me know.
20:11:31 <mrhmouse> I didn't mean that it necessarily used BigNum, only that it didn't wrap. Could just stop at 255 or whatever the max value is.
20:12:25 <mrhmouse> Unless the behavior is defined in the original design for what happens at value boundaries. I'm working off of memory here.
20:15:30 <FreeFull> What would be fun is that if you ever try to increment past 255, the cell gets replaced with a random value
20:15:38 <FreeFull> Or a pointer to some other cell
20:16:44 <mrhmouse> FreeFull: How would the pointer work? Incrementing/decrementing would modify a different cell..? Moving left/right would move relative to the other cell..?
20:17:49 <quintopia> mrhmouse: i like to think that nonwrapping implies unbounded
20:18:16 <quintopia> mrhmouse: forcefully stopping a number from overflowing is just stupid and inelegant
20:18:57 <mrhmouse> quintopia: brainfuck is elegant otherwise?
20:19:45 <quintopia> mrhmouse: wrapping algorithms tend to be very elegant.
20:20:31 <quintopia> however, i suspect that an algorithm that works in the unbounded case should also work in the forcefully-size-limited case, assuming the numbers involved don't push up against that limit.
20:20:50 <quintopia> that said, writing algorithms for the unbounded case is straight-up challenging
20:21:39 <mrhmouse> challenging, or just time-consuming?
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20:22:53 <FreeFull> mrhmouse: You know what, not a pointer, but just randomly teleport you to a different position in the program
20:23:10 <mrhmouse> FreeFull: It's also easier to explain :)
20:23:11 <FreeFull> Or maybe randomly teleport to a different cell
20:23:45 <mrhmouse> Depending on your implementation, I think teleporting to a different location in the source code is trivial
20:24:14 <quintopia> so is moving to a different cell in the array
20:24:34 <boily> apparently virtualbox causes my machine to panic. so I installed libvirt, which is very nice and nifty and fungot and everything else. but then, the kvm vagrant plugin refuses to compile, so I can't use that with projects that run on vagrant. fml.
20:24:34 <fungot> boily: i'll let this fnord do this, unchecked conversion in code i've pasted from my fnord
20:24:46 <quintopia> but from the programmer's perspective, the random cell seems easier to manage than the random instruction
20:25:53 <mrhmouse> Far easier, I would think. Especially if you're implementing a compiler (and not an interpreter)
20:26:48 <quintopia> not the compiler programmer, the bf programmer
20:37:44 <boily> oklopol is a walrus.
20:39:11 <mrhmouse> Does #esolang house any Lojban speakers?
20:39:58 <Taneb> I tried to learn once, didn't get very far
20:40:11 <oklopol> yeah there are a few aficionados
20:40:31 <oklopol> including myself (i even have the grammar in my bookshelf)
20:40:50 <mrhmouse> I'm thinking of taking a swing at it, thought there might be a few people here interested in that sort of thing
20:42:11 <kmc> Taneb: me too, long ago
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20:43:09 <kmc> i was dating this woman and her other boyfriend was into lojban
20:47:15 <shachaf> i was in some lojban channels for a while
20:50:03 <ion> It’s popular enough for there to be channels?
20:50:41 <mrhmouse> shachaf may be referring to a conlang channel in general
20:52:15 <FireFly> there are multiple lojban channels on freenode..
20:52:23 <FireFly> or were, last time I joined them, anyway
20:52:32 <FireFly> there's #ckule ("school") too
20:53:33 <shachaf> i also went to a meeting of lojban speakers once
20:54:50 <mrhmouse> FireFly: Thanks for directing me to #ckule! That's incredibly useful.
21:02:13 * kmc thinks his last message is one of the nerdiest things he's said in a while
21:04:39 <Taneb> kmc, I disagree, it suggests you were dating someone
21:04:54 <boily> nerds have dates, too!
21:06:20 <kmc> i think dating a poly conlang enthusiast is nerdier than not dating anyone
21:06:27 <kmc> and i ♥ it
21:07:31 <boily> today will be remembered as the Day the Fizzie Killed the Lambdabot.
21:09:02 <boily> indeed. he is the perp.
21:16:00 <FireFly> fungottttt, why can't you evaluate haskell?
21:16:01 <fungot> FireFly: i was mistaken!! i want my five pounds. i feel bad making you read paul graham's account on viaweb and fnord and fnord
21:16:17 <boily> (I love wikipédia. “instead of sounding like "YEEEEEE"”.)
21:16:39 <FireFly> fungot: do you evaluate haskell if I pay you five pounds?
21:16:39 <boily> FireFly: my bot can evaluate Haskell. fsvo evaluate. Error 1.
21:16:39 <fungot> FireFly: i know; it's an occupational hazard for all of my mail.)
21:16:48 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
21:17:06 <FireFly> fungot: stop replying with kinda sensical replies; it's scary
21:17:06 <fungot> FireFly: undefined variable ' a' combinator, which is all the rage
21:17:11 <metasepia> Dog a domesticated canid, Canis familiaris, bred in many varieties.
21:17:27 <metasepia> cat definition: a carnivorous mammal ('''Felis catus''') long domesticated as a pet and for catching rats and mice.
21:17:32 <boily> fungot is sentient. it's just... sentient on a different axis.
21:17:32 <fungot> boily: why not just disable web access then, the output just after i checked. how shall i hand a long list of books to buy
21:17:48 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
21:17:52 <metasepia> Befunge is a stack-based, reflective, esoteric programming language.
21:17:58 <FireFly> fungot: very good question, I say
21:17:58 <fungot> FireFly: every time someone bothers to look at them
21:20:10 <fungot> olsner: he's a pathological liar
21:20:26 <fungot> mrhmouse: need to sleep on right now, not sure
21:20:30 <boily> fungot, stop being sentient!
21:20:30 <fungot> boily: you're missing the forest for the trees. :)
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21:20:35 <boily> mrhmouse: befunge.
21:20:46 <mrhmouse> impressive. Is the source available?
21:20:48 <boily> woohoo! fizzie casted necroresurrection!
21:21:09 <boily> mrhmouse: ask the aforementioned necromancer.
21:21:48 <mrhmouse> Nevermind, found the website :)
21:21:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
21:22:12 <fungot> FireFly: fnord it. if our body likes it, it's only tangentially related
21:25:48 <boily> someone will end up writing F&F&F slashfiction, I can sense it :D
21:25:56 <mrhmouse> Huh. "Fnord" is actually in fungot's source. I may have to learn Befunge.
21:25:56 <fungot> mrhmouse: eval ( 1 0) returns 0 here
21:28:26 <fungot> FireFly: the devil is in the pipeline for that kind of language
21:29:28 * boily gives botcrackers to fungot
21:29:29 <fungot> boily: i remember well. besides that perl is a neat write-only language if you know about t when he did it
21:29:44 <fungot> boily: perhaps not flying, as such
21:32:16 <olsner> perhaps I should get a pet fungot
21:32:16 <fungot> olsner: or pre-scheme.
21:32:26 <myname> i thought of making a whitespace dialect with MONGOLIAN VOWEL SEPERATOR and the 2 zero width spaces
21:32:35 <fungot> olsner: today: " zomg my vimrc broke u sux") ( bundle " mostly/ harmless") ( scheme-report-environment 5)))
21:32:40 <myname> so you essentially can only write it with a hey editor
21:33:14 <mrhmouse> myname: is that Fonzi mode for emacs?
21:33:25 <kmc> myname: it should also use COMBINING GRAPHEME JOINER
21:33:38 <boily> not to be confused with a hay editor, for when you are in performance horse-tuning.
21:33:50 <myname> kmc: as long as it is zero width, everything should be fine
21:34:17 <fungot> shachaf: i have no idea at the moment, so i would favor the name " mono". err...
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21:34:32 <kmc> what about a hax editor
21:34:34 <kmc> or a sax editor
21:34:36 <fungot> olsner: i tend to be very useful, as is necessary to tie the scheme system: a set of knowledge and irrational disdain for anything that reminds me of ' if'
21:34:39 <shachaf> fungot: are you writing a .NET implementation
21:34:39 <fungot> shachaf: well, essentially, but i'm still unsure about needing a clos-style type dispatch system, et cetera, as well as
21:35:32 <kmc> i hardly know 'er!
21:35:40 <FireFly> fungot's .NET implementation actually sounds interesting
21:35:41 <fungot> FireFly: fnord? :d *goes to upload lost fnord partner. riastradh, you're always loading it fnord some later version... ( i think that's enough fnord.
21:36:00 <kmc> fungot: me too
21:36:00 <fungot> kmc: and they reported this to dorai a year or so
21:36:05 <mrhmouse> fungot: there's never enough fnord
21:36:06 <fungot> mrhmouse: why not quack? never heard of
21:36:08 <olsner> hmm, these muffins may have been slightly moldy.. will I die?
21:36:28 <kmc> are they shot through with fungot?
21:36:28 <fungot> kmc: ah i see what you mean by " c in scheme
21:36:28 <fungot> FireFly: how? tetris requires delays and reflexes could make him type ' hi tusho' and hit enter
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21:36:44 <FireFly> olsner: if you type 'hi tusho' and hit enter I think you'll survive
21:36:51 <fungot> kmc: and adding interesting tidbits of teh information fnord industry every now and then. :d)
21:36:57 <kmc> The Fungot Diet
21:37:05 <olsner> fungot: am I safe now?
21:37:06 <fungot> olsner: alice owns the room i take it you can't do it on my own
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21:38:36 <FireFly> Has fungot's chatter actually improved as of lately, or have I just been oblivious to it before?
21:38:36 <fungot> FireFly: is that really you? done with exams? nothing, so it must be
21:39:00 <FireFly> I'm probably just imagining things
21:39:01 <shachaf> this song is called Alice's Room, and it's about Alice, and the Room
21:39:14 <kmc> and tommy wiseau
21:39:26 <olsner> FireFly: we've just been doing a whole lot of fungot lately, and I guess you're filtering out the stuff that's not very good
21:39:26 <fungot> olsner: well it starts to make sense now, thanks for the movie by the way,
21:39:39 <fungot> olsner: he's saying what the code is blazing fast, but it's not what i think
21:39:59 <kmc> we were just outside of barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the fungot began to take hold
21:39:59 <fungot> kmc: eval ( lambda foo) is usually syntax for () x
21:40:23 <kmc> oh is that how Scheme works? thanks fungot, it all makes sense now
21:40:23 <fungot> kmc: in stew everything is a side-effect.
21:40:37 <kmc> ((lambda (fungot) (fungot fungot)) (lambda (fungot) (fungot fungot)))
21:40:37 <fungot> kmc: yes i have a " color", and such typos probably won't be able to get it
21:40:49 <kmc> fungot: im white
21:40:50 <fungot> kmc: i mean, blender does it too.
21:41:35 <mrhmouse> what happens when you get two fungot's talking to one another? mindless chatter?
21:41:35 <fungot> mrhmouse: reference implementations, like... 500-600 lines, iirc. any docs on why, even though there's no exclamation mark in the cases i'm familiar with
21:41:39 <shachaf> fungot: is #esoteric a stew
21:41:39 <fungot> shachaf: there are two gc's. look at " how an electron interacts", for that matter
21:42:42 <fungot> shachaf: as in, you can use syntax-case to pattern match on e.g. spidermonkey. c2bf. egobfi) in pseudo-haskell
21:42:54 <kmc> mrhmouse: there was a famous dialogue between ELIZA and PARRY
21:42:58 <shachaf> fungot is p. obsessed with scheme
21:42:58 <fungot> shachaf: and then tell me about x 5, y 4, z x+1
21:43:32 <shachaf> fungot: i don't know about those things
21:43:32 <fungot> shachaf: iirc it will not be easy for me to update my own site.
21:43:33 <FireFly> "Scheme is like a stew: everything is a side-effect."
21:43:47 <fungot> FireFly: new environment every time you want to do in one line on irc matches the regex on the whole) pretty fun.
21:44:03 <shachaf> fizzie: you should fix fungot's punctuation
21:44:03 <fungot> shachaf: ahh, i get porn sites and forum messages complaining about network problems at the office ' til 1am and drum loudly, yeah, i understood to be magical
21:44:36 <FireFly> you could match parens and just strip unmatched ones
21:44:45 <shachaf> the spacing is also an issue
21:44:56 <shachaf> fungot would seem much more realistic without the broken spacing
21:44:56 <fungot> shachaf: paint shop fnord string to compare /etc/ password for its fnord.
21:45:27 <mrhmouse> I like to think of fungot as a drunken CS major, which makes the whitespace and parens just character points
21:45:27 <fungot> mrhmouse: hello back. i think i'm about to drop a very large stream that contains all of the
21:45:38 <fungot> mrhmouse: orbit's back end ( forgive the bad intentation.)
21:45:50 <mrhmouse> see, he's even sorry about the whitespace
21:46:08 <FireFly> I thought it was "forgive the bad intent"
21:46:12 <fungot> shachaf: " fold" by haskell terminology and a fold-right by srfi-1... i wonder
21:46:21 <mrhmouse> I thought it was a typo of "indentation"
21:46:30 <FireFly> Like, "sorry that I'm about to drop a very large stream that contains all of the orbit' back end"
21:47:09 <mrhmouse> Curse you fungot, now I'm snickering in the office and getting odd looks
21:47:10 <fungot> mrhmouse: for each stage there's a variable that is downcased. apple laptop loves qt. and i want to subtract " alpha" is that it
21:47:20 <fungot> mrhmouse: http://pastebin.ca/ fnord my way through fnord right now, bkhl
21:47:39 <fungot> FireFly: ( in case the offset changes. i wouldn't be surprised if it was made
21:48:02 <shachaf> fungot: should i read The Illuminatus! Trilogy?
21:48:02 <fungot> shachaf: char is a number that inp will never return, some values must be the font. that's just for starters. that will require using it for
21:48:14 <shachaf> fungot is as enigmatic as always
21:48:14 <fungot> shachaf: no idea at all)
21:48:42 <mrhmouse> fungot has a special brand of enlightenment
21:48:42 <fungot> mrhmouse: although i probably got the usage stuff for import ten times or anything.) i've had this for years without a problem
21:49:12 <shachaf> fungot: do you like #drugz
21:49:13 <fungot> shachaf: i'd prefer, say, scheme48.)
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21:51:56 <FireFly> I think fungot secretly gets high on scheme
21:51:56 <fungot> FireFly: why wouldn't they look like locale names to me, a doylestown restaurant would have people dressed as 18th-century fnord, serving... i dunno
21:55:55 <shachaf> FireFly: if that's a secret, then fungot is very bad at secrecy
21:55:56 <fungot> shachaf: i gotta get me some o that sweet yelling, but noooo. you were talking about a forbidden page, whats to talk about
21:56:13 <shachaf> fungot: tell me more about the forbidden page
21:56:14 <fungot> shachaf: scheme is optimized for sparcs, but the list isn't laid out in readme and now m-x slime automatically loads slime48 stuff and doesnt ask me to, naa naa naa.
21:56:24 <FireFly> (does it contain scheme source code?)
21:56:30 <shachaf> fungot: naa naa naa yourself
21:56:30 <fungot> shachaf: he is pretty fnord. between germany and france. --south. now
21:56:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:56:39 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
21:56:49 <fungot> shachaf: " and this is a new game. there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, savage thrust of her was certain that the noise was as a distress signal is
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22:33:21 <ais523> elliott: the new abusefilter seems to be holding, at least
22:34:17 <ais523> it doesn't seem 100% reliable
22:36:10 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
22:36:54 <nooodl> fungot: shakespeare huh?
22:36:55 <fungot> nooodl: ale man. hold! in the orient when the gracious light lifts up his head, for the close night doth play the runaway, and we are come to fetch you home: i meete the captaines at the cittadell
22:37:36 <ais523> it gets automatically turned off because it assumes it's hitting false positives
22:37:39 <ais523> because it matches so many actions
22:37:57 <zzo38> Can you remove that feature?
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22:49:22 <shachaf> elliott: Can you restart lambdabot?
22:49:42 <shachaf> Maybe set something up to restart like things used to work?
22:50:04 <shachaf> (This time it looks like some admin told it to "@quit #lesswrong".)
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22:52:32 <ais523> elliott: can you please reconfigure MediaWiki to change $wgAbuseFilterEmergencyDisableThreshold to 1.0?
22:54:29 <elliott> shachaf: is it even in #lesswrong?
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23:03:22 <zzo38> I have made up something called "Block RPG" I don't know if it already exist under other name. How it works is, there is a hierarchy of referees and players, and both the referees and the players have to be ready in order to play something. If something depends on what someone else did in the past, or is encountering another player (or referee), that part of the game is blocked until it is resolved (the rest of the game can still continue).
23:04:51 <zzo38> Are you aware of such things?
23:05:38 <shachaf> I am not aware of such things.
23:06:03 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of idea, it could work if there are too many players and stuff like that?
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23:36:26 <kmc> shachaf: it's confusing that «foo 2>&1 >out» writes only stdout to 'out' but «foo 2>&1 | tee out» writes both stdout and stderr
23:38:42 <oerjan> what about foo >out 2>&1
23:38:55 <kmc> that will redirect both and is generally what you want
23:39:33 <kmc> if you think of it like «stdout = open("out"); stderr = stdout;» then it makes sense
23:39:38 <kmc> but it still "feels backwards" to me
23:40:16 <Bike> wait, so what's foo 2>&1 >out do
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23:40:44 <fizzie> Writes stderr to where stdout would have gone, and stdout to "out".
23:40:45 <Bike> writes stderr to stdout and stdout (without stderr) to out?
23:41:13 <kmc> exec 3>&2 > >(ts >> "$log") 2>&1
23:42:43 <fizzie> Appends stdout and stderr with timestamps to $log, and keeps fd 3 around for referring to the original stderr?
23:42:45 <kmc> redirect stdout and stderr to append to $log through the program 'ts' (which timestamps each line), also keep original stderr open as fd 3
23:43:05 <fizzie> See, not rocket science.
23:43:07 <kmc> and it takes effect within the current shell script, because that's what 'exec' does without a command
23:43:21 <shachaf> kmc: that's why there should be a write-to-file command, like a dual to cat (the way people actually use it)
23:43:28 <shachaf> and then everything should be done with pipes, no < or >
23:44:08 <shachaf> readfile foo | ... | writefile bar
23:44:52 <kmc> sponge is like that, but it also buffers
23:44:58 <oerjan> m>&n means "assign file descriptor m to point to whatever file descriptor n previously pointed to, with no further indirection through n"
23:45:03 <kmc> also tee >/dev/null
23:45:05 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartmann_pipeline
23:45:22 <fizzie> There's no way to "branch" in a pipeline, though. You couldn't "... | ts | writefile bar" just the stderr, and pipe stdout somewhere elsewhere.
23:45:39 <Bike> oerjan, kmc, fizzie: oh, i was confused because i wasn't sure what 3 was (like how 1 is stdout and 2 is stderr)
23:45:40 <shachaf> if you're willing to use >
23:45:54 <kmc> Bike: yeah, 3 isn't anything by default, but doing that opens it
23:46:08 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, but process substitution can do that! which is why i used it above
23:46:14 <Bike> my old enemy, create-a-variable and assign-a-variable being conflated
23:46:14 <zzo38> Yes there should be write file command; it can be used, then, if you cannot use > for some reason; can dd write a file like that?
23:46:25 <fizzie> The >(foo) and and <(foo) things always look kind of clunky to me for some reason.
23:46:27 <shachaf> fizzie: well, it's kind of unfair that you can say 2>x 1>y but you can't pipe them to two different commands
23:46:30 <kmc> i <3 them so much
23:46:37 <kmc> colordiff -u <(command) <(othercommand) | less -SR
23:47:22 <kmc> Bike: then you can do whatever >&3 later in the script to send things to original stderr, but all the stderr and stdout of the commands you run will be captured
23:48:02 <kmc> i <($((3))) bash
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23:50:32 <fizzie> shachaf: There's the "clean" approach of (prog 2>&3 | stdoutpipeline) 3>&1 | stderrpipeline for that, of course.
23:52:14 <fizzie> `run ((echo "aabb"; echo "bbaa" >&2) 2>&3 | tr 'a' 'A' >&2) 3>&1 | tr 'b' 'B' # so clean
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23:54:48 <zzo38> Yes, you can do that!!!
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01:00:29 <kmc> shachaf: when you write match x { Foo => 1 }, that can either bind a variable named Foo, or match an enum constructor named Foo if there's one in scope
01:00:40 <kmc> because there's no lexical distinction between constructors and variables :/
01:01:23 <kmc> fortunately unreachable patterns are an error, so match x { Foo => 1, _ => 2 } won't be accepted if you didn't import Foo, but the error message is not very helpful
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01:22:10 <zzo38> O, I realized yesterday I also had a dream where I can fly (for the same reason as before, I think). I don't remember anything else except that a computer functioned in an unexpected way (something that happens a lot in my dreams).
01:23:05 <Bike> that happens to me a lot in real life too.
01:23:27 <zzo38> Computers functioning in the unexpected way?
01:23:59 <ion> I had a dream where i extracted the key data from the chip in my driver’s license (there’s no such thing actually) and imported it to gnupg.
01:24:56 <Bike> yes. it happens to me a lot.
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01:29:44 <Sgeo> I think I'm done using Fiddler.
01:29:46 <Sgeo> Charles is the one for me.
01:30:02 <zzo38> Fiddler? Charles? What is that?
01:31:54 <Sgeo> HTTP proxy/debugger things
01:32:04 <Sgeo> Let you view and manipulate HTTP traffic on your computer
01:34:17 <shachaf> kmc: You could also avoid that by requiring people to write Foo().
01:34:33 <shachaf> But that's probably worse than the capitalization thing.
01:34:55 * shachaf isn't sure whether Haskell made the right choice there, but the syntatic distinction is nice.
01:52:33 <elliott> ais523: CAPTCHAs and abusefilter settings changed
01:53:19 <ais523> let's see how long this keeps the spambots down for
01:53:45 <elliott> ais523: btw, if you want them changed faster in the future then you can use a format like
01:53:48 <elliott> $wgCaptchaQuestions[] = array( 'question' => 'In which year was <a href="/wiki/LOLCODE">LOLCODE</a> created?', 'answer' => '2007',
01:53:53 <elliott> uh, there were more newlines there originally
01:54:04 <Fiora> that sounds pretty easy to bruteforce xD
01:54:34 <elliott> Fiora: well, the spambots aren't actually being hardcoded for the wiki
01:54:39 <elliott> they're just getting people to fill out the CAPTCHAs
01:56:17 <Bike> looking forward to anti-esolang AIs
01:57:03 <Fiora> "write a BF program to print hello world"
01:57:36 <Bike> eventually the wiki becomes run by only the strongest - only those who can defeat the hill in bfjoust. it's like mad max
01:58:03 <Fiora> "write a bfjoust program better than one of the top 50 to make an edit"
01:58:18 <Fiora> wiki-powered human algorithms or something xD
02:03:36 <ais523> elliott: right, I didn't know what it looked like internally
02:04:03 <ais523> also wouldn't the spambots just submit a slightly tweaked copy of omnipotence or whatever?
02:06:07 <ais523> incidentally, so far my spam filters have blocked 3,440 attempted edits by spambots
02:06:19 <ais523> and that's just the ones that got past the CAPTCHA
02:06:52 <ais523> the actual editing doesn't seem to have human intervention
02:07:03 <ais523> because it'd be trivial to change the content of the edit to avoid the filter
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02:08:13 <ais523> or in the case of the latest batch of spambots, use the "edit this page" link rather than the "new section" link
02:08:32 <ais523> (which interestingly, doesn't even exist on user pages by default, the spambots are getting there via URL editing)
02:10:01 <ais523> oh wow, I opened Chromium halfway through a distro update
02:10:06 <ais523> and it's missing its graphics for drawing tabs
02:18:53 <ais523> bleh, the distro upgrade tool thing that shows distro upgrade progress has frozen
02:19:00 <ais523> I think the upgrade is still happening, though
02:19:03 <ais523> and those things can't be interrupted
02:19:46 * ais523 reads dpkg.log instead
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02:24:00 <tswett> So, you know self-solving multi-king chess puzzles.
02:24:23 <zzo38> I haven't seen any, but now I understand once you explained it.
02:24:27 <Bike> really, aren't we all self-solving multi-king chess puzzle, on some level
02:24:28 <tswett> I still can't think how you'd make a computer out of one if you were allowed to put walls in.
02:24:52 <tswett> Bike: whoa. I think you're right.
02:25:20 <tswett> Like, evolution. It's a multi-king chess puzzle because there are lots of different things that could kill you, and it's self-solving because we evolve defenses to deal with it without any particular effort on our parts.
02:26:23 <Bike> makes you think.
02:26:24 <zzo38> I still don't think that is a proper analogy.
02:27:54 <oerjan> the world is a self-solving multi-king chess puzzle. note how the number of kings has been going down.
02:28:29 <oerjan> when there's only one king left, he wins.
02:28:57 <zzo38> In tsumeshogi there is only king on one side though.
02:29:11 <tswett> So *that's* why Britain's had a queen for so long.
02:29:15 <tswett> A great conspiracy to keep her alive.
02:29:37 <tswett> And why there's a new convention saying that the line to the throne will no longer depend on people's sexes.
02:30:10 <oerjan> yep, norway made that change too. sadly we still have a crown prince, but his oldest child is a daughter.
02:30:49 <Sgeo> I have learned more about X-UA-Compatible than I ever wanted to know.
02:30:52 <oerjan> and sweden has victoria.
02:31:02 <ais523> OK, I just killed saucy(8), let's continue this distro update by hand
02:31:15 <Sgeo> I am now an empty shell of a web developer.
02:31:28 <zzo38> I think I may have figured out how to use category theory in Icosahedral RPG to make a category of spells. Each spell is a morphism, and the objects have to be correct in order to cast a spell. I haven't completely figured it out but I have figured out more ideas than just this too.
02:31:57 <Sgeo> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/ieblog/2010/Jun/16_IEsCompatibilityFeaturesforSiteDevelopers_1.svg
02:31:58 <ais523> zzo38: do you have some sort of cartesian or closed monoidal structure on the category?
02:32:03 <ais523> if not, each spell could only take one object
02:32:19 <zzo38> ais523: Well, I did think to make it a tensor category.
02:33:32 <Sgeo> That chart is for IE9 specifically
02:35:30 <zzo38> I have figured out composing spells though; you add together their mana costs and casting times, causing to do both spells together simultaneously once the casting time is finished, if they are both castable spells normally. Otherwise, the objects might specify that the spells have to be connected together in a certain way so that their effects depend on each other.
02:35:33 <quintopia> ais523: did you see i was able to split the wiggle clear algorithm into two pairs of contiguous cells rather than four contiguous cells.
02:35:52 <ais523> quintopia: no, although that makes sense given how it works
02:36:10 <ais523> actually it just needs cells A B C D where the distance between A and B equals the distance between C and D, right?
02:36:15 <oerjan> finally bfjoust is giving features back to bf
02:36:17 <zzo38> ais523: I am not sure how it owuld be cartesian closed though
02:36:32 <ais523> oh, it wouldn't be closed
02:36:34 <quintopia> ais523: yeah pretty much. it's on the algorithms page now.
02:36:35 <ais523> it would be cartesian, though
02:36:38 <zzo38> But, does this way I described seems to work OK?
02:36:40 <ais523> unless you could send the results of spells back in time
02:38:12 <ais523> a category being "closed" basically means that the left and right of morphisms are mostly arbitrary, you can curve them around to move something from one side to the other
02:38:28 <zzo38> If there is a result to send back in time, there would need some other spells to make it do that, I think
02:39:05 <ais523> e.g. Set is closed because a function from A to B is isomorphic to a function from (Unit) to (functions from A to B)
02:39:27 <quintopia> all spells should be metaspells which affect spells as well as objects
02:39:30 <ais523> that probably doesn't work for spells, though
02:39:35 <ais523> quintopia: category theory doesn't work like that
02:40:12 <ais523> btw, for anyone here who doesn't understand category theory and wants to
02:40:14 <oerjan> hm if someone triggers the abuse filter, wouldn't the logical thing be to make them redo the captcha.
02:40:18 <ais523> I'm planning to write a short tutorial in my PhD thesis
02:40:31 <ais523> oerjan: no because we think the spambots have a database of CAPTCHA solutions
02:40:53 <ais523> I have an alternative CAPTCHA, "make an edit to some other page that gets past the spam filter"
02:41:21 <elliott> they don't have such a database any more
02:41:23 <ais523> and suggest using the sandbox
02:41:32 <ais523> they may recreate it at some point though
02:42:32 <zzo38> Category theory isn't the only kind of mathematics involved in this game. I think multimanas form a free semiring over a set of five elements.
02:42:50 <Bike> so can i use these spells to light plants on fire
02:43:20 <zzo38> Bike: Maybe some of them might be able to create fire, and those ones can be used for such purpose, if you target the plants with the fire.
02:43:32 <zzo38> I don't know if the partial ordering I have defined on the multimanas has another name already in mathematics.
02:43:45 <Bike> the partial ordering of burning stuff
02:44:03 <ais523> zzo38: what's your addition, and what's your multiplication?
02:45:25 <zzo38> ais523: It is a free semiring... I hope I have the correct terminology. (Over the elements named w, u, b, r, g, then you will have (w^2+3)(wb)=w^3b+3wb, I hope?)
02:45:35 <zzo38> Well, actually, a free commutative semiring, I mean.
02:46:04 <ais523> zzo38: yes, that's how free semirings work
02:46:10 <zzo38> ais523: Now that I said it is actually a free commutative semiring, do you understand how I mean?
02:48:35 <zzo38> The partial ordering I have defined is that X is less than or equal to Y if X is a sum of terms, and if you add zero or more additional terms and/or multiply any of the terms in X by anything (not necessarily the same thing every time), then you get Y.
02:49:28 <zzo38> (Hopefully I haven't made some mistake in writing this.)
02:49:39 <zzo38> Is this correct, and if so, does it have a name?
02:52:35 <ais523> bleh, something's wrong with the filter
02:52:42 <ais523> it's matching, but letting the edits through anyway
02:52:52 <ais523> I would clean up this spam but my trackpad's stopped working properly
02:53:43 <zzo38> A mana is basically a multiset of {w,u,b,r,g}; you can only multiply. With a multimana you can add and multiply. The five manas (w), (u), (b), (r), and (g) are called "prime"; (1) is called "colorless"; all other manas are called "composite".
02:55:41 <ais523> zzo38: and r^2 is different from r?
02:56:49 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it is different.
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02:58:07 <quintopia> which esolang was it that has stacks on stacks on stacks?
02:58:39 <ais523> Funge-98 has a stack stack, but that only goes two levels of nested stacks deep
03:02:09 <ais523> you know what Ubuntu needs? fully transactional distribution upgrades
03:02:16 <ais523> so that you can interrupt them at any point and the system still works
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03:04:21 <ais523> oh huh, I think the spambots still haven't figured out newlines
03:04:30 <ais523> I just noticed the <br><br> in the summaries of the page content
03:04:50 <ais523> but the previous filter was getting stuck because there were newlines added by the new section link
03:05:30 <oerjan> sadly, some real editors keep using the dang <br>s
03:05:40 <ais523> oerjan: the test's against <br> but no \n
03:05:46 <ais523> which is pretty unique to the spambots
03:05:59 <ais523> if linebreaks are useful, paragraphing's going to be useful too
03:06:29 <ais523> also pages should be categorised, and thus have a \n before the categories
03:17:32 <zzo38> There are some things Pin Eight has done to avoid spam; this is effective (not 100%, but reasonably effective) for them at least.
03:24:19 <zzo38> Another rule I was thinking of for Icosahedral RPG is the "MBL%" rule (it stands for "magical bad luck"). Every time you cast a spell there is a (spell level + 1)% chance to increment your MBL%, and then your MBL% chance to lose 1 XP. Every day your MBL% is cut in half, and there is the MBL% chance that you will not naturally heal that time.
03:24:45 <Bike> sounds complicated. what's the plot purpose
03:24:47 <zzo38> In addition, when you succeed at a saving throw there is a MBL% chance that you have to try again (only once, though; it doesn't repeat)
03:25:23 <ais523> how much is 1XP? I guess it's a lot more than in Dungeons & Dragons?
03:25:34 <zzo38> ais523: Ten times as much.
03:26:57 <zzo38> But all XP gained for playing the game is ad hoc (unlike D&D), and some spells may be able to heal MBL%, and possibly recover the XP loss in a few cases (not all)
03:28:07 <zzo38> (Actually when I play D&D all the XP gain is ad hoc too; the standard tables are not used at all. Icosahedral RPG simply doesn't even have such tables.)
03:29:40 <zzo38> Actually, in this game I say ten times as much, but that is considering the level advancement. Standard level advancements max at level 100 though rather than level 20 (and non-standard maxes as level 125), so it isn't exactly the same.
03:29:56 <Bike> what is the backstory
03:30:30 <zzo38> The backstory is made up by the players and referee during the game.
03:32:12 <zzo38> There are a whole lot of other differences too, such as how alignments work, pseudolevels, and segments as a unit of time, and more
03:32:50 <zzo38> I have described some of these already in the past.
03:33:22 <zzo38> (Pseudolevels are similar to the D&D concept of level adjustment.)
03:36:19 <zzo38> (Challenge rating is gone too.)
03:39:00 <zzo38> Hopefully this is suffuciently understandable so far?
03:40:51 <zzo38> (I will recommend that you do not mark off the XP lost due to MBL% right away, but rather tally them and at the end of the session, subtract it from the session XP gained.)
03:50:25 <zzo38> Another feature of this game is that all of the ability scores are useful to all characters, although all for different purposes; for example, a high-level wizard may need a lot of strength to carry books if he wants to have a large selection of spells available to him at the time.
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03:59:51 <tswett> Or if he wants to move heavy furniture around.
04:00:13 <zzo38> Yes, anyone would need strength to move heavy furniture, though.
04:10:03 <Bike> i've always wanted a game where i have to take a few minutes to solve the knapsack problem in order to load up my spells
04:11:56 <zzo38> Bike: Ah. I like the idea but this game isn't quite like that; it could be done by making some spells take up multiple slots, though, or by the category theory way above where you need to compose two spells in order that they would work together to make the effect you want.
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04:15:51 <zzo38> Bike: Do you know of any such game like you described?
04:16:02 <Bike> god i hope not
04:16:03 <zzo38> You can try to make up such things, whether card games or computer games or otherwise
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04:38:07 <oerjan> a game with tetris shaped spell slots
04:38:45 <kmc> a game where you solve captchas to cast spells
04:43:11 <oerjan> @tell elliott There is something unsatisfying when your deletions and blocks take up _more_ space in recent changes than the original spam did :(
04:43:36 <Bike> well only nerds would read recent changes
04:43:56 <kmc> as previously discussed?
04:44:00 <Bike> prove me wrong mother fucker
04:44:21 <oerjan> NERDS WANT TIDY WEB PAGES
04:45:45 <zzo38> Then just add an option in the recent changes menu that says "Hide deleted/blocked"
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04:57:52 <elliott> oerjan: there are new CAPTCHAs and abusefilter settings now, so should end
05:01:15 <ais523> also several rangeblocks, which should slow the rate a bit
05:01:26 <ais523> sadly, there needs to be lots of spam to be able to aim a rangeblock correctly
05:01:57 <ais523> also, bleh, there's definitely something wrong with abusefilter
05:02:31 <ais523> it's set to disallow, but the filter seems to not be matching live
05:02:37 <ais523> even though it does in the retrospective test thing
05:07:34 <oerjan> elliott: well i blocked another one just before doing that @tell
05:08:14 <elliott> oerjan: right, the existing accounts will still edit for a while
05:08:29 <oerjan> yeah that one should have been trapped
05:09:05 <ais523> the point is that the abusefilter is matching the new edits
05:09:18 <ais523> and yet somehow, they're not being stopped
05:14:38 <zzo38> Are the abusefilters misconfigured?
05:14:56 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think so, although it's possible
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05:17:41 <oerjan> are there any other filters than /4 ?
05:17:52 <ais523> oerjan: there are /1, /2, and /3
05:17:57 <ais523> all of which seem to be working correctly
05:18:09 <oerjan> huh? i couldn't get them listed..
05:18:16 <prooftechnique> Anyone have a TeX file generated from the TeX source? cweave is choking on it for me and #latex is silent.
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05:18:42 <zzo38> prooftechnique: Yes, I do have.
05:19:12 <zzo38> Do you mean tex.web?
05:19:36 <prooftechnique> I was trying to generate a TeX file from the one on CTAN, but cweave is giving me errors
05:19:46 <zzo38> Use weave, not cweave.
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05:20:08 <kmc> http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2013/07/26/5 "remote command injection vulnerability in xmonad-contrib"
05:20:12 <kmc> that's exciting (also old news I guess)
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05:21:23 <oerjan> ais523: i can only get to the page for /4, although the rest are listed in Special:AbuseFilter
05:21:52 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, those pages had been crashing before
05:22:05 <ais523> but when I created /4, I assumed it was fixed
05:22:22 * Sgeo vaguely wonders how or works in Icon
05:22:32 <Sgeo> Can't work like < etc. do, right?
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05:24:54 <kmc> how does < work and why not
05:25:28 <Sgeo> a < b fails if a isn't less than b, and if a is less than b returns b
05:25:44 <Sgeo> So you can do a < b < c and things like that comfortably
05:26:30 <Sgeo> But with ||, then you still need to do the right-hand expression if the first fails.. hmm, just requires the operator to be able to succeed despite a failure
05:30:04 <kmc> dazed and confused but trying to continue
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05:50:14 <Sgeo> The most recent spam is using wiki syntax
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05:58:56 <zzo38> How often are you flying in a dream, and if so is it ever because you have wings?
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06:00:54 <zzo38> Some people say they fly without wings. Someone else has said to me that in their dream they use a boat, once they learned that the boat was built in a way that wouldn't work, it sink immediately.
06:01:20 <kmc> i rarely remember flying dreams and I don't think I ever had wings but it could be
06:01:36 <zzo38> Were you still you, though?
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06:01:54 <zzo38> In which cases are you not you?
06:01:55 <kmc> i don't have a specific memory of being someone else in a dream ever
06:02:06 <Bike> in my dreams i'm only a blank puppet of the gods, acting out their fantasies for their amusement
06:02:29 <oerjan> i sometimes fly in my dreams, strangely enough by grabbing my legs.
06:03:25 <ais523> oerjan: I used to be able to fly in dreams via repeatedly jumping
06:03:25 <oerjan> i can never fly very high though, because there's always bloody power lines in the way.
06:03:36 <ais523> nowadays I tend not to have a physical form at all though
06:03:50 <zzo38> Interesting.............???
06:04:10 <Bike> is it interesting, zzo
06:04:21 <kmc> i often attempt autofellatio in dreams and it usually works
06:04:30 <kmc> which is odd because I rarely attempt it while awake and it never works
06:04:35 <kmc> and yet this doesn't trigger lucid dreaming
06:04:48 <kmc> `addquote <ais523> nowadays I tend not to have a physical form at all though <zzo38> Interesting.............???
06:04:53 <HackEgo> 1128) <ais523> nowadays I tend not to have a physical form at all though <zzo38> Interesting.............???
06:05:13 <zzo38> I was someone else I think three times, in all cases being a different species rather than human. Those are only reason I can fly is if I am of some species that has the ability to fly. In a few cases, I am nobody at all, just an observer, having no form or anything.
06:05:18 <ais523> OK, those lines are only funny out of context
06:05:24 <ais523> but they are pretty funny out of context
06:05:24 <kmc> which species zzo38?
06:05:31 <Bike> what's the mean and standard deviation of the number of cocks you have in dreams
06:05:33 <kmc> ais523: I think zzo38's reaction is funny regardless
06:05:51 <zzo38> However I find that sometimes even when I am myself, I can levitate half an inch above the ground for some reason, without doing anything unusual.
06:06:15 <kmc> Bike: I think it's always one so maybe the sd is undefined
06:06:25 <Bike> wouldn't that make it zero?
06:06:48 <kmc> i guess so
06:06:57 <Bike> since you're not deviating from the norm
06:07:02 <Bike> how limited of you
06:07:10 <kmc> variance is expected square of deviation, yeah
06:07:25 <zzo38> kmc: Well, once I was illithid like my Dungeons&Dragons character. In the two cases I could fly it is because I was mi-go (I played in a computer game once). In both cases, I had additional memories as myself, which happened to be false memories, and uncombinable with the memories of the form I had in the dream.
06:07:38 <Bike> what the heck, you're playing as an illithid?
06:07:45 <zzo38> kmc: Ah. So that is how standard deviation works?
06:07:48 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbiased_estimation_of_standard_deviation is kind of neat
06:08:11 <zzo38> (I don't actually know a lot about it, but I have found the formula once and put it into the computer)
06:08:15 <kmc> the sample s.d. is a biased estimator
06:08:17 <kmc> wake up sheeple
06:08:41 <kmc> \rainbow{KURTOSIS}
06:08:43 <Bike> standard deviation is basically the sqrt of the variance, yeah
06:08:53 <kmc> isn't it exactly that?
06:08:53 <Bike> kurtosis is such an awesome word, i ahve no idea what the fuck it means too
06:09:03 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I know that is what standard deviation is.
06:09:08 <kmc> "Distributions with negative or positive excess kurtosis are called platykurtic distributions or leptokurtic distributions respectively."
06:09:12 <kmc> now those are some awesome words
06:09:13 <zzo38> (For your other question: See my D&D recording)
06:09:50 <zzo38> I always try to record my and other people dream sequence things, so I will do that too now.
06:09:51 <Bike> kmc: well there's the n-1 correction and other shit i don't remember so i dun wanna commit
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06:10:03 <Bike> also wow the unbiased sd estimator for the normal distribution is awesomely complicated.
06:10:15 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/b/3/a/b3a3e6627a48873e4a582fc64a249cd2.png get it on
06:10:52 <kmc> now i wanna know what the n^-4 term is!!
06:11:14 <zzo38> That is a sd estimator? What is the Gamma and O doing?
06:11:27 <Bike> "c4(n) is the scale mean of the chi distribution with n − 1 degrees of freedom"
06:11:48 <kmc> i should learn more terrifying statistics facts
06:11:51 <Bike> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbiased_estimation_of_standard_deviation#Results_for_the_normal_distribution i guess it's part of the mean of a chi distribution
06:11:56 <kmc> use them to scare small children in my neighborhood
06:12:13 <kmc> mmm chai distribution
06:12:23 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/7/f/17f3c3655c300615607d0712fd73c09b.png oh, yes. (this is the mean of a chi with k dof)
06:12:40 <Bike> i feel kind of bad since i have a favorite distribution.
06:12:59 <zzo38> When I open F:\HTML\backup in Windows Explorer, it crashes, for some reason. (Opening it in the command prompt, or in any other program, works fine though; subdirectories also work fine.)
06:14:42 <Bike> well, actually, i guess it's a tie, between cauchy (because practically all the moments are undefined) and solomonoff's (because it's uncomputable)
06:14:56 <zzo38> O, the Gamma is factorial of (n-1). I still don't know what the "O" does?
06:15:44 <Bike> It's saying that the series continues in terms of n^-4, n^-5, etc., and these all keep decreasing and don't affect the result much.
06:15:53 <kmc> wtf is Solomonoff's distribution, is that the universal prior?
06:16:02 <Bike> am i missing something because i'm pretty sure zzo knows what big o means
06:16:10 <Bike> "The only assumption that the theory makes is that the environment follows some unknown but computable probability distribution. It is a mathematical formalization of Occam's razor." how can you not love this
06:16:16 <Bike> it only makes that one tiny assumption
06:16:20 <kmc> http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/File:RaySolomonoff2001.jpg
06:16:23 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know what the big O means in this context though.
06:16:36 <zzo38> (I do know what it means in general)
06:16:43 <Bike> zzo38: it means the same as usual. the value is less than a cconstant times n^-4
06:17:04 <Bike> have you never seen it used like this before? it comes up all the time...
06:17:17 <kmc> Bike: maybe if you don't love uncomputable things? but imo that's like not loving kittens or sunshine
06:17:54 <Bike> hardcore bayesians are so awesomely out of it i love them. it's just the facts
06:18:34 <kmc> hardcore bayesians in $YOUR_CITY want to update your prior TONIGHT
06:19:23 <Bike> distribute their prior uniformly over your body
06:22:42 <kmc> shachaf: I think the lexical distinction at the value level would be good for Rust. people already mostly follow the style
06:24:28 <kmc> you might want to make an exception for constants (static FOO: int = 3)
06:25:54 <kmc> actually we already have -W non-camel-case-types which warns about variants too
06:27:20 <kmc> rust has nice control over warnings; there are attributes for lexically scoped allow / warn / error plus another that's "error and forbid overrides of that within this scope"
06:27:49 <zzo38> I had one dream where the first computer game ever invented was an implementation of a card game called "One Draw", played on hardcopy terminals.
06:28:52 <kmc> shachaf: I think Haskell's lexical distinction wouldn't fly for types; stuff like int is lowercase while structs are mostly camelcase, also using uppercase for tyvars is firmly established
06:30:48 <zzo38> I tend to use capitalized names for structs in C, but lowercase for other types such as "byte" and "boolean". In BASIC, I usually give a structure name capitalized and then if a single variable uses it, it has the same name (including capitalization) (I do this often in BASIC in order to serialize data structures more easily)
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06:32:49 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Which one is that?
06:32:55 <Bike> The Guru Granth Sahib?
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06:34:21 <doesthiswork> I can finally get rid of my copy of a new kind of science because Deming is a more exciting guru
06:34:38 <zzo38> In another dream, I lived in an apartment; this apartment building was really strange, including elevators in strange places. In addition, the furniture store was also a video game arcade (without any separations between them); some of the games involved escalators to go around the building (both of them).
06:35:08 <Bike> "The Deming System of Profound Knowledge" god
06:35:19 <Bike> fuck this earth
06:35:43 <zzo38> prooftechnique: At this time, I do not know. (Either I forgot or there was no data.)
06:36:32 <prooftechnique> Bike: The sequel is "The Deming Pyramid: Enlighten Your Friends for Fun and Profit"
06:37:37 <doesthiswork> I haven't gotten to the profound knowledge yet
06:38:31 <doesthiswork> I'm enjoying reading about how corporate slogans are stupid
06:42:26 <prooftechnique> Work is also stupid and people with jobs are no better than sheep, MOM
06:43:34 <zzo38> "Why are you driving the subway train the wrong way?" ... "I am a druid and I am driving this way because I like to." ... What???
06:44:33 <doesthiswork> prooftechnique: Isn't there some philosophy about the nobility of labor and all that?
06:46:37 <zzo38> Someone told me they had a dream that ended in credits.
06:47:16 <zzo38> I don't know; they didn't say.
06:53:53 <zzo38> Philosophy is not necessarily so stupid to me.
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06:54:11 <zzo38> And work isn't stupid either.
06:58:24 <zzo38> I once had a dream that changed every time I blink.
06:59:04 <kmc> zzo38: have you ever taken psychedelic drugs
06:59:47 <zzo38> kmc: No, I don't think so.
07:00:29 <kmc> would you like to
07:00:38 <zzo38> No, I don't think so that either.
07:11:46 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Prim.seq' [infixr 0] of a section
07:13:12 <zzo38> I once had a dream where I was trying to throw away a key, but the people outside kept catching it.
07:14:22 * kmc . o ( `addquote <kmc> zzo38: have you ever taken psychedelic drugs <zzo38> I once had a dream where I was trying to throw away a key, but the people outside kept catching it. )
07:14:27 <zzo38> kmc: Someone made up a computer game called "Tetanus on Drugs", so you can play Tetris and you do not need any psychedelic drugs!
07:14:55 <zzo38> kmc: It is a miss of a lot of things; add [...] in the middle perhaps
07:16:03 <kmc> yeah i'm not going to add it really
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07:16:23 <zzo38> Yes I don't expect you to.
07:16:42 <kmc> hooray for realistic expectations
07:16:44 <zzo38> I just mean that even if things like that are added for whatever reason it should add [...] on it
07:20:23 <^v> i dissagree
07:21:39 <Sgeo> Why is everything identity?
07:22:06 <Sgeo> From a certain convention's point of view, Prolog's =/2 could be called identity
07:22:27 <Sgeo> In Kernel, (unwrap id) == quote, I think
07:22:27 <zzo38> I don't know what Prolog's =/2 is (or much else about Prolog)
07:25:33 <oerjan> it's an infix predicate defined by the clause X = X, so it simply tries to unify its arguments when called. i think.
07:25:43 <mroman> I only need three registers at max for binary expressions, right?
07:25:57 <mroman> (assuming I have no constraints on which operations can be performed on which registers)
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07:28:27 <kmc> what kind of expressions?
07:29:34 <mroman> a + b, a * b, a << b and such
07:30:04 <mroman> even though WP says that for every register machine there's an equivalent register machine with only two registers
07:30:54 <mroman> althouh I couldn't get how I can implement it with only two registers
07:30:57 <oerjan> mroman: that assumes unbounded registers. also, exponential slowdown. or was it doubly exponential.
07:32:40 <zzo38> I once had a dream where the presence of the electric pokemon Voltorb caused the radio to explode every time it was turned on. I realized it could be prevented by turning on the TV set at the same time, which worked because the TV used more power than the radio.
07:33:14 <kmc> how much more?
07:33:25 <oerjan> mroman: basically you go via a single register multiplication/division machine. see also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
07:33:51 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i'm not quite sure if it is that.
07:34:06 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know, but it was CRT, so probably a lot more.
07:34:15 <prooftechnique> I mean just in general, but yes, in that particular case I'm sure it would also be unpleasant
07:34:24 <mroman> Ok. Then I stick to using three registers
07:34:27 <oerjan> perhaps i'm thinking of getting from there to a turing machine.
07:34:34 <olsner> I had a dream about a bucket collecting contest
07:34:51 <mroman> except on x86 because there are some nasty register constraints there
07:34:51 <oerjan> mroman: technically three registers don't necessarily help enough.
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07:35:22 <mroman> oerjan: My allocation tree skizzes tell me that three registers are enough
07:35:37 <mroman> at max three registers are used at the same time
07:35:53 <oerjan> mroman: um are you assuming you have RAM in addition to this.
07:36:24 <oerjan> in which case 2 is obviously enough, it's a different problem.
07:36:54 <oerjan> you just put the result in one of the input registers.
07:37:36 <kmc> x86 is probably turing complete with no registers
07:38:04 <mroman> use the other register as a memory pointer
07:38:09 <mroman> write the result there
07:38:21 <mroman> that's esentially doable
07:38:33 <mroman> but three registers are probably more practical
07:39:21 <mroman> because if I can keep results in registers it's probably faster than writing/reading from memory all the time
07:39:41 <mroman> That answers my question.
07:39:44 <zzo38> How is x86 Turing complete with no registers?
07:40:19 <zzo38> olsner: What else about such dream which is about a bucket collecting contest? How does such contest work in a dream?
07:40:34 <mroman> you can increment/decrement in memory
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07:41:06 <mroman> and you can compare with memory and immediate
07:41:23 <mroman> which means you can check for 0
07:42:00 <mroman> which means you can translate brainfuck to x86 without using any registers
07:42:08 <prooftechnique> I think the important question is "How are the contents of the bucket factored into the scoring of the game?"
07:42:15 <olsner> zzo38: basically, collect buckets inside a specific apartment in a house, stack them and see which team gets the longest/tallest stack
07:42:44 <zzo38> olsner: Ah, OK. Any other details of such a dream, or just that?
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07:43:13 <olsner> not sure, I think we were tearing out stuff for a building to be demolished before then
07:43:17 <mroman> I'm not yet certain how to address cells on the tape though
07:43:17 <prooftechnique> Ah, so a bucket full of sand is potentially much more valuable than an empty bucket
07:43:36 <zzo38> I do not think x86 or any CPU is really Turing complete by itself (whether or not you have any registers), but you probably can a CPU connected to an unbounded tape in the I/O ports
07:43:38 <olsner> prooftechnique: it's also cheating, that must be emptied before scoring
07:43:51 <kmc> zzo38: right
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07:48:12 <olsner> prooftechnique: unfortunately no-one puts buckets like that in their derelict buildings, but if there are such buckets they would indeed be good to find and collect
07:50:08 <kmc> it's harder if you forbid using the flags register as well
07:52:23 <kmc> but might be doable using tricks like those in the "mov is Turing-complete" paper
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07:54:50 <shachaf> I,I "I used to have a little tube of jmp here to sharpen it up a bit -- then this'll be Turing-complete."
07:55:40 <mroman> "As long as someone else implements the compiler"
07:56:16 <ais523> shachaf: mov-only machines work, they have the instruction pointer as something you can move to
07:56:29 <kmc> i thought maybe not, because maybe mov doesn't support the right indirect modes if you can't use registers
07:56:54 <kmc> but you can do a memory-indirect jump!
07:57:01 <kmc> 0000000000000000 ff2425efbead0b jmp qword [0xbadbeef]
07:58:00 <shachaf> Yes, that paper was about x86.
07:58:11 <kmc> i am thinking about whether x86 is turing complete with no registers, including no flags register
07:58:25 <kmc> (still allowing the instruction pointer though!)
07:58:27 <shachaf> and no instruction pointer register?
07:58:36 <mroman> kmc: so. cmp is not allowed?
07:59:08 <Fiora> that sounds really hard. like. the only non-flaggy conditional jump I can think of is the jecz thing or something?
07:59:49 <olsner> something like jmp [mem] is conditional on the contents of memory
08:00:15 <Fiora> so I guess you could add/xor/etc constants to memory to change its address
08:00:18 <kmc> olsner: ret counts as using the stack pointer
08:00:23 <kmc> mroman: I would allow cmp without register operands but I wouldn't allow anything which depends on the condition flags
08:00:55 <Fiora> so I guess if your turing machine has N states you could like um
08:01:15 <Fiora> have [foo] be the address of the next state
08:01:26 <Fiora> and like, mov [foo], state2 would set the next state to 2?
08:01:32 <mroman> because DEC for example affects flags as well
08:01:45 <mroman> it's gonna be difficult finding instructions that don't affect any flags
08:01:56 <kmc> right, I'm ok with that as long as it's not observable :)
08:02:33 <mroman> no instructions depending on flags
08:02:35 <fizzie> "Hey I want to make a registerless x86 program but the TSC keeps changing what do I do?"
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08:03:38 <kmc> you can't even forbid instructions that depend on EFLAGS because of, like, trap flag and alignment check flag
08:03:41 <ais523> I think it's OK for the registers to change
08:03:44 <ais523> so long as you don't read/write them
08:03:51 <mroman> I didn't know about any TSC register
08:04:05 <kmc> every instruction is implicitly a read of the trap flag woah
08:04:46 <mroman> TSC is not *really* good ol' x86
08:04:57 <mroman> it's some new age thing
08:05:39 <fizzie> Arguably, every access to memory involves "reading" a segment register.
08:05:41 <kmc> how much architectural state does x86 actually have? the answer is "a lot" and it's all listed in one place in the Intel manuals
08:06:00 <kmc> specifically, the documentation for the virtual machine state struct thingy used by VMX
08:07:06 <fizzie> Since, y'see, "mov [foo], 42" is actually "mov ds:[foo], 42" and that's a register right there.
08:07:09 <kmc> some of it's not directly accessible but observable state nonetheless
08:07:38 <kmc> for example the segment descriptors, which are loaded from memory when you load a segment selector register
08:08:43 <kmc> i wonder if the TLB is in there... because there are some fantastic VM tricks which involve deliberately making stale TLB entries
08:09:09 <kmc> do they not work in virtualization?
08:09:22 * kmc should probably not have used the acronym "VM" there but meant virtual memory
08:10:18 * Fiora is being dumb and is trying to implement that registerless turing machine thing but can't figure out how to do the tape
08:10:29 <Fiora> the state seems doable but storing the current tape position sounds hard
08:12:28 <fizzie> I think there's just one TLB. (That's why there's the whole VPID stuff, so that everything VMX-related doesn't invalidate the whole TLB.)
08:13:45 <fizzie> "The original architecture for VMX operation required VMX transitions to flush the TLBs and paging-structure caches. This ensured that translations cached for the old linear-address space would not be used after the transition. Virtual-processor identifiers (VPIDs) introduce to VMX operation a facility by which a logical processor may cache information for multiple linear-address spaces. --"
08:14:02 <kmc> then I think those tricks should still work
08:15:51 <kmc> is measuring the effective size of the TLB a good way to detect whether you're running in hardware virtualization?
08:16:18 <kmc> are there easier ways that can't be thwarted by the hypervisor?
08:16:51 <fizzie> I was under the impression that there were ways, in general. No idea about their fakability.
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08:18:39 <ais523> theoretically, any way can be thwarted by a sufficiently AI-complete hypervisor
08:19:02 <kmc> the TLB thing would involve timing measurements and so could be thwarted by virtualizing time
08:19:20 <fizzie> "The classic trick to detect a VM is to populate the ITLB, run an instruction that must be virtualized (which necessarily clears out such processor state when it gives control to the hypervisor), then run some more code to detect if the ITLB is still populated."
08:19:43 <kmc> but yeah, if you care about hardware virtualization then you are not willing to virtualize time to an arbitrary degree
08:20:43 <kmc> fizzie: cool my idea works hooray &c
08:22:46 <mroman> shouldn't it be impossible to detect low-level emulation of a system?
08:22:55 <olsner> I wonder if you could do virtualization by just giving the virtualized system one of your cpus, and use the iommu or something similar to sandbox it
08:24:03 <fizzie> mroman: The question was limited to the context of hardware-assisted virtualization.
08:24:51 <olsner> (but the iommu would still be detectable of course, and probably even easier to detect there since the tsc would be reliable)
08:24:52 <fizzie> (We're all just snippets of code running in someone's universe simulator, anyway.)
08:25:08 <kmc> does the iommu let you isolate a single processor from parts of memory and also prevent that processor from reprogramming the iommu?
08:25:21 <kmc> maybe but I don't think so
08:27:16 <kmc> are bizarrely restricted subsets of x86 the new turing tarpits? imo yes
08:27:50 <kmc> like "only the MMU" https://github.com/jbangert/trapcc
08:28:00 <mroman> those computer scientist must've really run out of better stuff to do
08:28:50 <olsner> I'm not sure how/if the iommu affects cpu memory access, but if it does work I imagine you would simply hide the iommu from that cpu
08:29:43 <mroman> how does that mmu turing thing work anyway?
08:30:08 <kmc> there are some talks and papers and stuff
08:30:22 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGXvJ1GKBKM is the one i watched
08:30:32 <olsner> you'd also need to somehow set it up so the iommu faults go somewhere else and not to the sandboxed cpu, and make sure that the sandbox cpu can't override it (which I think is not currently possible)
08:30:44 <kmc> but it also covers other cool stuff like the stale TLB tricks i mentioned earlier
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09:25:30 <fizzie> Oh for... *another* HTK filename length issue.
09:26:14 <fizzie> The result-analysis tool segfaults if paths in the label file are over 256 characters.
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09:37:18 <fizzie> char name[256]; /* file name for error messages */
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10:12:14 <Ngevd> I'm trying voice recognition again
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10:12:51 <Ngevd> This is going pretty well
10:13:03 <Ngevd> Much better than last time I tried
10:13:13 <Ngevd> I don't even need to type
10:13:31 <Ngevd> All I need to do is speak and occasionally press send
10:13:41 <Ngevd> It's quite improving my diction
10:13:47 <Ngevd> because I'm forced to speak quite clearly
10:14:04 <Ngevd> I'm not sure what's with the spaces at the beginning of some lines
10:14:11 <Ngevd> maybe that's for a partial sentence
10:15:30 <Ngevd> This is actually working really well
10:15:43 <Ngevd> real fast norris hair salon 3 she deserves to download
10:16:19 <Ngevd> Real fast nora's hair salon 3 shear disaster download
10:16:24 <Ngevd> that was much better
10:19:14 <Taneb> (note: Taneb has a keyboard, Ngevd has a microphone)
10:19:22 <Taneb> Another bad PHP example: https://eval.in/60631
10:20:21 <FireFly> Try entering that URL via voice recognition
10:21:00 <Ngevd> https: slash slash eval dart in slash 6 06 31
10:22:29 <Ngevd> Is voice recognition have something to dance judges
10:22:46 <Ngevd> Phone now it started
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10:30:21 <fizzie> I see you got the ':' in, but that was the only punctuation.
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10:33:08 <fizzie> (I sort of didn't catch those last three lines.)
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10:41:46 <Taneb> "This voice recognition has" then I forgot
10:41:51 <Taneb> "Oh no, it's started"
10:41:59 <Taneb> And I can't remember what airedale was
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10:51:13 <fizzie> Well, it was nice while it worked.
10:57:24 <fizzie> Today's ##c extract: http://sprunge.us/bPch
10:58:34 <fizzie> Can't argue with mathematical proof.
11:11:33 <Jafet> There are so many superior languages, but not many posterior ones.
11:29:28 <mroman> PHP has a type system?
11:29:37 <mroman> I only knew PHP 4 once
11:29:54 <mroman> but they're probably at PHP 6 or something
11:31:55 <mroman> I wonder how he measures language sanity
11:32:34 <fizzie> mroman: <Radditz> PHP as a language is great, static typing, + sum types you can create types yourself, functional, latest version has algebraic data types amongst others
11:32:37 <fizzie> I think they're perhaps talking about some whole other PHP altogether -- or just generally trolling -- because I could not really verify any of this from the webs.
11:33:15 <fizzie> (Last I heard, PHP didn't really have much to do with the words "static typing".)
11:34:58 <fizzie> Also they seem to be in 5.x still.
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11:37:34 <mroman> I hope PHP 6 will clean up the whole mess of functions
11:46:52 <mroman> That, or mod_python becomes the new standard for webhosters
11:51:45 <mroman> fizzie: Are you the boobie lover btw?
11:52:24 <mroman> Why do people use stupid nicknames.
11:53:04 <fizzie> No, I was just a bystander.
11:54:16 <myname> is there something simpler to prove turing completeness rather than a bf interpreter?
11:54:33 <fizzie> BCT is quite common in some circles.
11:55:10 <fizzie> Or something SKIttish.
11:56:01 <myname> i do think anything stack based is too hard
11:56:10 <myname> BCT may be the perfect choice
11:56:39 <myname> but i may get better with a compiler from BCT
11:57:39 <fizzie> Going at it "directly" with a plain UTM can also be reasonable.
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12:06:58 <myname> okay, maybe it's just impossible
12:08:28 <mroman> what are you trying to translate to what?
12:08:35 <Taneb> What language are you trying to prove TC?
12:08:53 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wolfgang
12:14:47 <myname> wikipedia states, that petri nets with inhibitor arcs are turing complete
12:14:59 <myname> i don't see why, though
12:15:09 <mroman> [citation needed] then :P?
12:15:54 <myname> "A universal Petri net with 14 places, 42 transitions, and 218 arcs was built"
12:16:24 <myname> there should be a shorter way due to determinism of wolfgang
12:17:27 <mroman> This might sound like a dumb question.. but: Aren't TC languages per 'definition' not deterministic?
12:18:09 <myname> i find brainfuck pretty deterministic
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12:18:55 <myname> what does halting problem have to do with determinism?
12:19:18 <mroman> But at least you can't say if it terminates or not
12:19:27 <mroman> and that sounds like it's not really deterministic at all
12:19:37 <mroman> because you can't "foresee" what will happen
12:19:59 <myname> well, if it does not terminate with a given input, it should never terminate with that same input
12:20:05 <mroman> that somehow violates my brain's definition of determinism
12:20:47 <myname> well, short way: if input is equal, output should be equal
12:20:50 <mroman> i.e. if you treat the program as a state machine
12:20:53 <mroman> and the input as an event
12:21:10 <mroman> where terminated is a state
12:21:15 <mroman> and still running is a state
12:24:29 <mroman> I'm thinking of predeterminism probably
12:27:18 <mroman> Predeterminism is the idea that all events are determined in advance
12:35:45 <Jafet> Every program either terminates or does not terminate, and this is true in advance.
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14:01:46 <john_metcalf> The internet archive / wayback machine is down.
14:02:36 <john_metcalf> Apparently they're on fire. They tweeted about a building being on fire (there's also a donate link in the same tweet!)
14:03:20 <john_metcalf> Odd how they mention the safety of the data before the safety of the people.
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14:23:46 <boily> they should store data on people. people tend to catch fire less often than buildings, so the data would be safer.
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14:54:57 <fizzie> "The class "false" is undefined. Perhaps Java is not running."
14:55:02 <fizzie> Oh, MATLAB, you and your errors.
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15:02:29 <fizzie> MDCS on the cluster seems to have broken down *again*.
15:02:35 <fizzie> Bah, I think I'll worry about it tomorrow.
15:02:57 <fizzie> (It's all "Reason: sbatch: error: Batch job submission failed: Invalid account or account/partition combination specified" about it.)
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17:53:36 <oerjan> <fizzie> mroman: <Radditz> PHP as a language is great, static typing, + sum types you can create types yourself, functional, latest version has algebraic data types amongst others <-- all of this fits haskell except "latest version" (it had them from the start)
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17:58:48 <`^_^v> this is a cool book cover http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5121HYFTK0L.jpg
17:59:17 <oerjan> <john_metcalf> The internet archive / wayback machine is down. <-- THUS IT BEGINS
17:59:27 <Bike> they had a ire :(
17:59:47 <oerjan> well that was the next line.
18:00:28 <oerjan> `^_^v: finally something for the programming sheeple!
18:00:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
18:01:24 <oerjan> hm there's no way to get HackEgo to simply not respond to a command, is there
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18:15:19 <boily> fungot: can you mute HackEgo?
18:15:38 <boily> what's a laf? is it another Nordic Delicacy, like a fternooner?
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18:17:51 <boily> `relcome prooftechnique
18:17:54 <HackEgo> prooftechnique: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:18:09 <HackEgo> boily: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
18:18:50 <Slereah_> Are there any OS in esoteric languages written around
18:18:56 <boily> I deduce from that random act of wercoming that prooftechnique's already been through that ritual.
18:19:00 <Slereah_> I remember hearing projects of BF OS
18:19:06 <Slereah_> But not sure if any of them came through
18:19:59 <boily> oooooh! quite the subterfuge!
18:20:11 <boily> (and an opportunity to cocoonspire you to the Wisdom Repo!)
18:20:28 <boily> Slereah_: I think the closest we have to an esoteric OS is NixOS.
18:21:08 <boily> prooftechnique: there, you are added.
18:21:51 <boily> cf. the /topic of this chännel ↑
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18:22:32 <fizzie> I think I liked it more when it was called LoseThos.
18:23:00 <fizzie> (Also isn't PSOX a bit like an operating system?)
18:23:37 <boily> prooftechnique: I think now is a good moment to ask you the The Question: what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
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18:25:53 <boily> you have commit access. commit your heart away!
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18:29:48 <boily> there are some wisdom entries that I didn't get to format yet, such as “wisdom/c” and suchlike.
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18:40:47 <prooftechnique> When did I say "Benchmarks are only a good measure of surprise"? I like that, and I'm thrilled that I said it :D
18:41:06 <^v> does a random name for a language generator exist? xD
18:41:29 <Taneb> ^v, that's what spambots are for
18:41:40 <Taneb> cf. Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
18:41:59 <^v> no, not random word generation
18:44:33 <zzo38> ^v: For generating random names for D&D characters I have used an algorithm I read about somewhere and programmed in my TI-92 calculator, but I don't know if that works for your purpose.
18:44:54 <zzo38> I don't know what exactly you want.
18:45:23 <zzo38> Maybe FurryScript can be made to do it somehow, though.
18:45:50 <^v> im just going to generate a large amount of random letters and pick the best looking one
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18:46:41 <zzo38> ^v: OK, how do you want to do that? Pick letters from a Scrabble game?
18:47:02 <Taneb> God, I need to get my laptop working by Friday
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18:49:18 <zzo38> Add some more `? files for other esolangs and other various things too
18:49:33 <HackEgo> TwoDucks programming language was invented in 2023.
18:50:01 <Taneb> `? Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
18:50:02 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:50:23 <boily> huh? how did I manage to miss TwoDucks?
18:50:38 <^v> zzo38, its trivial in lua
18:50:38 <zzo38> boily: I added it just a few minutes ago.
18:50:54 <zzo38> ^v: Ah, then use that.
18:51:07 <Taneb> `run echo "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there." > wisdom/Real\ Fast\ Nora\'s\ Hair\ Salon\ 3\:\ Shear\ Disaster\ Download
18:51:21 <Taneb> `? Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
18:51:23 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:51:26 <zzo38> (Although I still prefer FurryScript for random text generation)
18:51:27 <Taneb> `? Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3\: Shear Disaster Download
18:51:29 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3\: Shear Disaster Download? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:52:30 <Taneb> Wow, this is the closest I've ever lived to London
18:53:03 <prooftechnique> `run echo "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there." > "wisdom/Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download"
18:53:12 <prooftechnique> `? Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3\: Shear Disaster Download
18:53:13 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3\: Shear Disaster Download? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:53:17 <Taneb> `? Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
18:53:19 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:54:00 <zzo38> Esolang wiki even has something about Perl.
19:00:05 -!- Ghoul_ has joined.
19:01:06 <boily> welcome to esolang wiki. you can do anything on esolang wiki. anything at all. the only limit is yourself. welcome... to esolang wiki!
19:01:38 -!- tswett has joined.
19:02:09 <zzo38> Which people are not put on wisdom/ yet?
19:02:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
19:02:19 <tswett> I dunno. Am I on wisdom/?
19:02:32 <HackEgo> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins
19:02:55 <tswett> Right, right, I live in Antarctica. I forgot about that.
19:04:44 <zzo38> There is a file for LaTeX but not for TeX and Plain TeX.
19:05:08 <tswett> I have a function that translates from the Haskell type "IO a" to the Hylisk type "World -> (Foreign a * World)". Now I'm writing a function that does the reverse.
19:05:56 <tswett> As far as I've found, there isn't an isomorphism from Hylisk's type system to part of Haskell's, but there is a homomorphism, which is really all that matters.
19:06:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
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19:06:21 <tswett> Which is to say, if you convert a Hylisk type "A" to a Haskell type "B", then the type "B" will contain stuff that the type "A" doesn't.
19:06:51 <tswett> But that doesn't really matter, because any value of type "B" can be used as we expect to be able to use a value of type "A".
19:07:30 <tswett> So yeah. When my functions are composed together, the result ought to be the identity.
19:07:46 -!- Bike has joined.
19:09:45 <tswett> It's ultimately a matter of converting something of the Haskell type "IO t" to something of the Haskell type "forall e. (IO e -> e, (t, IO e -> e) -> e) -> e". Obviously.
19:10:26 <kmc> Hylisk? is that Haskell with Lisp syntax for the CPython VM?
19:10:37 <tswett> kmc: astonishingly, no.
19:10:43 <tswett> It's Haskell with a linear type system.
19:11:19 <kmc> I'm all about substructural types now
19:11:31 <zzo38> tswett: I don't know how such a type is supposed to work.
19:11:33 <kmc> I was wondering if relevance logic has any applications in programming
19:11:38 <Bike> that's so mainstream, i'm into structsubural types
19:11:45 <tswett> zzo38: I barely know myself.
19:12:01 <kmc> Bike: we should invent a language with subliminal types
19:12:36 <zzo38> kmc: What does subliminal types means?
19:12:48 <kmc> i don't know, that's why we need to invent it
19:12:54 <tswett> Okay, lemme see. So I'm importIO. I have an "IO t", an "IO e -> e" (but don't ask me what an "e" is), and a "(t, IO e -> e) -> e". I have to use all this to make an "e", in the obvious way.
19:13:06 <zzo38> OK. Perhaps make it in a list of ideas
19:13:27 <tswett> This task might be impossible. Hopefully it is possible, but it'll be pretty inconvenient if it turns out to be impossible.
19:13:50 <kmc> maybe it's a system where types are inferred but can't be written down and instead of the compiler giving specific type errors it just induces a vague feeling of unease
19:14:45 <kmc> HEY YOU! JOIN THE NAVY!
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19:16:29 <tswett> Let's see. If I apply liftM to the third thing there, I get "IO (t, IO e -> e) -> IO e". So I can just take my "IO t" and my "IO e -> e" and combine them to make "IO (t, IO e -> e)", and combine this with the liftM thing to get an "IO e", and then I can use the "IO e -> e" again to produce an "e".
19:16:35 <tswett> The question is, does this make sense?
19:17:43 <zzo38> tswett: I don't know.
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19:21:44 <tswett> So I'm importIO. What am I supposed to do? I'm given a world, and I have to produce a bare value along with a new world. But a world is really just an "IO e -> e", and I'm supposed to tie actions into it by composing them with it on the right. I think.
19:23:42 <tswett> This sounds backwards.
19:25:06 <tswett> According to my notes, the "presumed way" to do things is to take this "IO t", compose it with the "IO e -> e", and drop the result into the function "(t, IO e -> e) -> e".
19:25:38 <tswett> Of course, you can't combine "IO t" and "IO e -> e" together to get "(t, IO e -> e)".
19:27:27 <Taneb> There's a gamejam this weekend here and I'm entering
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19:29:10 <kmc> er whoops I was *way* scrolled back
19:29:17 <kmc> just pretend i was lolling at the most recent amusing thing
19:29:38 * kmc was reading Taneb's speech recognition adventure
19:31:03 <Taneb> I think it's exactly the same software as last time
19:31:32 <Taneb> kmc, do you have any gamejam-entering advice?
19:32:04 <tswett> Woohoo, a type error I don't understand because I don't understand the code I just wrote.
19:32:38 <kmc> tswett: who does that compiler think he is?!?
19:33:14 <tswett> Apparently he thinks he's someone qualified to try to understand my code.
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19:51:19 <tswett> So, dang, now it works.
19:51:44 <tswett> Now I'm afraid that something else will go wrong somewhere down the line.
19:54:53 <tswett> Maybe IO actions will be performed in the wrong order, or the wrong number of times...
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19:57:39 <mroman> does a C compiler cache a result in a register even if there's a pointer to that variable?
19:58:20 <mroman> e.g. int i; while(i < N) { /* do stuff */ i++;}
19:58:21 <zzo38> mroman: I expect it might only if it can prove that it won't cause it to go wrong, probably
19:58:43 <mroman> there you could keep i in a register and not write it back to memory after each increment
19:59:05 <mroman> int i; foo(&i); while(i < N) { /* do stuff */ i++; }
19:59:10 <mroman> on the other hand, is a different story
19:59:20 <tswett> And you ask because i might be simultaneously read by another thread or something?
19:59:54 <mroman> it could be, that the order in which stuff happens is different for an observing thread
20:00:52 <mroman> int a,b; foo(&a, &b); while(a < N) { i++; b = 5; } return i
20:01:02 <mroman> that should be an a there
20:01:06 <mroman> since the compiler caches a
20:01:29 <mroman> an obverver might see b = 5 before i changes
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20:02:38 <mroman> i might actually never change
20:02:48 <mroman> because you can keep it cached in a register the whole time
20:03:14 <mroman> as return i wouldn't even need a writeback to memory
20:03:51 <tswett> Are you actually doing something that depends on what C compilers do here?
20:04:18 <mroman> I assume the standard says, that concurrent modificiation is undefined behaviour
20:04:23 <mroman> it should at least say that
20:04:37 <mroman> or concurrent reads in this case
20:04:56 <tswett> I would hope that it says unspecified at worst.
20:05:22 <mroman> esentially a compiler should perform a writeback after a pointer to that variable has been requested
20:05:45 <mroman> probably depends on what foo does
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20:05:53 <mroman> but let's assume the compiler is dumb and has no idea what foo does
20:06:24 <tswett> The question still on my mind is whether or not you're actually doing something that depends on what happens here.
20:06:50 <mroman> int i = 0; while(..) { i++; /* i cached inside the loop */ }; /* writeback i due to &i */ foo(&i;)
20:06:59 <mroman> tswett: I'm writing a compiler :)
20:07:23 <ais523> you can'r put a semicolon inside parens like that
20:07:47 <mroman> If my compiler detects, that a pointer to a variable is held
20:07:56 <mroman> is he forbidden to cache it later?
20:08:11 <mroman> or can I he just say: Screw you, that's unspecified behaviour
20:08:26 <tswett> My guess is no, he can do that, but I'd suggest looking at the standard.
20:08:49 <mroman> because after foo nothing could actually change i
20:08:50 <ais523> brb, restarting my window manager
20:08:56 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:09:05 <mroman> unless foo started a thread or something that is now doing cstuff with i behind my back
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20:10:09 <mroman> even if I would writeback to memory every time I incremented i
20:10:10 <mroman> it would not be safe for that thread to change i
20:10:10 <mroman> the question still remains: What about reads?
20:10:30 <mroman> concurrent writes are undefined anyway
20:10:57 <mroman> but must that thread be able of observing a change in i?
20:11:45 <mroman> tswett: I'm just using C as an example.
20:11:45 <mroman> My source language is not actually c
20:12:00 <tswett> The answer to your question depends on what the source language is.
20:12:12 <boily> seems the solution is to instantiate a different thread for every value of i. that way, each thread only sees a single value, and doesn't have to worry about changes.
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20:13:05 <boily> ais523: what's your window manager?
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20:13:52 <mroman> tswett: the question is not really "what C says" but
20:14:11 <mroman> I'm voting for: It's not well defined behaviour
20:14:17 <mroman> and that thread may never see a change at all.
20:14:38 <mroman> after all, that thread might not even be scheduled before the loop completes
20:14:45 <mroman> now comes to tricky trick
20:15:24 <mroman> http://codepad.org/jV9wdikK
20:15:34 <mroman> ^- what if the loop only terminates, if the thread detected a change
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20:16:38 <tswett> I'd say it's acceptable (but not desirable) for the main thread to loop forever, never yielding to the child thread.
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20:32:45 <HackEgo> J_M: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:38:11 <boily> another Venezuelian scared away...
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20:45:20 <mroman> well. apparentely using signals in C is undefined.
20:45:54 <Bike> that's why real programmers only use ada.
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20:46:38 <mroman> int sigint_handler() { dontstop = 0; }
20:46:55 <mroman> the compiler can reason that, since you never call sigint_handler yourself
20:46:56 <kmc> dontstop believin
20:47:02 <mroman> that dontstop is never changed in your code
20:47:14 * boily strikes Bike with a hardcopy of the Ravenscar Profile
20:47:20 <mroman> and may replace while(dontstop) with while(1);
20:47:21 <kmc> mroman: is that so even if it's declared volatile?
20:47:21 <Bike> Isn't that what "volatile" is for
20:47:50 <olsner> if dontstop is a volatile sig_atomic_t that might be well-defined in C+POSIX (C itself doesn't say anything about signals, obviously)
20:47:54 <kmc> signals are ♫ the worst ♫ though
20:47:59 <boily> “volatile” tells the compiler “don't you dare optimising my variable away, you crapshoot”.
20:48:20 <kmc> i didn't know about sig_atomic_t, thanks olsner
20:48:42 <kmc> "Until C++11, which introduced std::atomic and std::atomic_signal_fence, about the only thing a strictly conforming program could do in a signal handler was to assign a value to a volatile static std::sig_atomic_t variable and promptly return."
20:48:56 <olsner> is there any way in plain C to use volatile except for setjmp/longjmp?
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20:49:52 <Bike> i thought it was originally added for mov-triggered architecture sorts of things
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20:50:11 <kmc> memory mapped hardware
20:50:30 <olsner> yeah, but C itself doesn't really have memory mapped IO (nor threads), does it?
20:50:31 <Bike> dunno if that's "plain C"
20:50:47 <Bike> https://mitpress.mit.edu/covers/9780262019538.jpg btw my field has better book covers than yours
20:50:49 <boily> olsner: GPIO on microcontrollers. it's essential to declare that stuff volatile.
20:51:40 <olsner> volatile int* gpio_thingy = [what goes here that's defined behavior by C?]
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20:53:19 <olsner> oh well, I suppose it's still pretty useful to have C-defined behavior when talking to those things, even if all the pieces don't necessarily come from C
20:54:05 <boily> fungot: are you defined?
20:54:06 <fungot> boily: hen. it is but so so, now fnord
20:56:46 <olsner> boily: fungot is fnord behavior
20:56:47 <fungot> olsner: second lord. it is too long; which makes it fiue and twenty yeares, and then why should we, in the smoake of warre: and formerly according to our appointment, when we were at work: my old master the iew to sup to night with a harlotry: and thither will i bring thee valentine
21:00:53 <boily> fungot: FNORD EAX, 0x2A
21:00:54 <fungot> boily: fabian. is't so, indeed? we men may say more, than tigers of hyrcania. see, by ten mile. for fnord being dead, i tell thee, iacke cade the fnord means to dress the commonwealth, as which of you saw eglamoure of late? ophe. my honor'd lord
21:01:11 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
21:02:02 <fungot> olsner: ( do we have? the translations are quite good. how dies sisc compare to plt?'
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21:05:13 <Slereah> Have you read your SICP today?
21:06:17 <boily> oh no. no no no no no no no.
21:06:24 * boily runs in fear far away from Slereah
21:07:12 <john_metcalf> I'm searching for scans of a Polish computer magazine called "Enter". Has anyone ever heard of it?
21:07:31 <john_metcalf> Not having much luck, probably due to the name...
21:07:44 <Bike> is that name translated?
21:07:54 <Slereah> boily seems to be deathly afraid of snakes
21:08:28 <Slereah> http://fuuka.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0037/37/1368047172925.gif
21:09:23 <Slereah> http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/jp/image/1335/81/1335810578462.jpg
21:09:47 <Slereah> http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/wizard.jpg
21:09:52 <Slereah> Programming could use more wizards
21:10:53 <Bike> scheme code with lots of defines is the worst
21:11:16 <john_metcalf> Bike: it's the original name. I've found a few copies on eBay, but that's about all.
21:12:13 <Slereah> "Scheme allows you to do crazy things: (define + -) (define define 3)"
21:12:47 <Bike> john_metcalf: well my library doesn't happen, but searching "Enter" does turn up some Lost episodes.
21:13:20 <Bike> Disc 3 (Episodes 9-12). Stranger in a strange land ; Tricia Tanaka is dead ; Enter 77 ; Par avion --
21:13:55 <Slereah> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdj6deraQ6k
21:14:20 <boily> john_metcalf: they have a website at enter.pl, but I can't read Polish.
21:14:34 <fizzie> I know of the Finnish computer magazine called "Enter", but that probably won't help.
21:14:43 <boily> Slereah: and, uh, why snakes?
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21:15:20 <Slereah> I don't have a fucking clue
21:15:26 <john_metcalf> Boily: found that and translated some with Google translate. It doesn't look like they have an online archive.
21:15:30 <boily> and WHAT THE FUNGOT IS THAT VIDEO?
21:15:31 <Slereah> Don't know where it came from
21:15:45 <Slereah> Enquiring about your daily reading of SICP
21:15:59 <boily> I vaguely recall having stored a copy about that somewhere...
21:16:15 <Slereah> That video is what Scheme is all about
21:17:42 -!- tswett has joined.
21:18:00 * boily sings “一二三 一二三 one two three one two three いち に さん！♪”
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21:18:48 <nooodl> it was some guy mentioning SICP and then someone else said "is that just your way of saying I'VE READ SICP" and then "I'VE READ SICP" became a /prog/ meme
21:20:08 <nooodl> simultaneously someone else made a postscript file of a snake and posted it in a thread called "the /prog/snake" i think? and someone else put two and two together
21:20:31 <kmc> is /prog/ that 4chan thing
21:20:36 <boily> what the snake says! SICP-SICP-SICP-SICP-SICP-SICP-SICP!
21:20:42 <Slereah> It's one of the TOP SECRET boards
21:20:57 <fizzie> An antagonistic snake would make more sense. (See: Python replacing Scheme in the MIT course.)
21:21:19 <Slereah> I'm afraid that now, Scheme is all snake
21:21:40 <Slereah> Among the programming animals, such as the Ocaml camel or...
21:21:51 <Slereah> Does the B language still exist
21:22:15 <tswett> It turned out to have ceased to exist long before anyone realized it no longer existed.
21:22:26 <boily> is B the anti-Feather?
21:22:27 <nooodl> fizzie: the antagonist is, in the /prog/ canon, "the Abelson": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdj6deraQ6k
21:22:43 <Bike> https://mitpress.mit.edu/covers/9780262518420.jpg my programming language
21:23:15 <nooodl> ah yes. the snake is in this too. i should just link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdj6deraQ6k when people ask me about /prog/ always
21:23:32 <tswett> Well, gee, now what. I guess writing an "apply" function might end up being useful eventually.
21:23:32 <nooodl> the factorial of seven is also in this... amazing
21:23:38 <tswett> That's kind of a useful function.
21:23:41 <Bike> it's cool how the sinuses (or whatever) look like a mustache
21:23:54 <Slereah> which I already gave before, anyway!
21:26:50 <Slereah> http://www.zazzle.com/my_other_car_is_a_cdr_bumper_stickers-128776132386843273
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21:31:03 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/gRbwf.png apparently jwz is on 4chan now, taking screens
21:32:00 <olsner> so where is this /prog/?
21:32:41 <nooodl> *that* /prog/ is gone, but the current /prog/, which is (even more) complete shit, is http://dis.4chan.org/prog/
21:33:05 <Bike> i'd like to point out that "dis" is indeed part of hell, in dante
21:33:24 <Slereah> The best board is actually http://dis.4chan.org/vip/
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21:58:19 <zzo38> How to I append to a @ list in Perl?
21:58:50 <fizzie> push @foo, 'x'; is popular.
21:59:41 <zzo38> I hope I did the rest of the program correctly.
21:59:51 <zzo38> I am trying to modify a Perl program.
22:00:09 <fizzie> Technically, @foo = (@foo, 'x') would also work, but I think 'push' is the usual thing for appending.
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22:05:48 <ais523> fizzie: or $foo[scalar @foo] = 'x';
22:05:55 <ais523> push is probably clearest, though
22:06:01 <ais523> and I think the compiler optimizes it into what I just wrote
22:08:09 <kmc> https://twitter.com/History_Pics/status/397393751527919616 golf used to be more exciting i guess
22:08:40 <fizzie> ais523: I had $foo[@foo] = 'x' and $foo[$#foo+1] = 'x' all written up, but decided not to.
22:08:56 <fizzie> (I don't think that needs a "scalar".)
22:09:07 <ais523> right, @foo[@foo] = 'x' would though
22:10:23 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:10:49 <fizzie> splice @foo, @foo, 0, 'x'; too.
22:13:59 <fizzie> splice @foo, -1, 1, $foo[-1], 'x';
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22:28:27 <Taneb> Aaaah once again I am painfully aware of the leftist positive reinforcement bubble I live in
22:31:05 <Taneb> ais523, I was reading an article I saw on reddit, basically saying that the tories sucked, slowly nodding in agreement
22:31:11 -!- tswett has set topic: Pregnant memory client sialic Guillen Puede yen Ten del Est | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:31:16 <Taneb> Then I realised there was almost nothing but tory-bashing
22:31:21 <Taneb> Little actual content
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22:31:38 <Taneb> Just factoids for me to memorize and recite at those who disagree
22:31:39 <ais523> Taneb: if it helps, I normally vote Conservative (although I didn't last election)
22:31:40 <kmc> reddit is great for creating echo chambers like that
22:31:42 <kmc> don't read redditn
22:31:46 <ais523> although I'm well aware that I'm in the minority among my age group
22:31:55 <kmc> i used to troll /r/atheism but that got old too
22:32:01 <Taneb> My family all vote conservative, although in general I don't
22:32:16 <Taneb> kmc, I'm not sure if there are any non-trolls in /r/atheism
22:32:48 <kmc> well they mostly troll in the other direction, then?
22:33:02 <kmc> I said unpopular things that quickly got downvoted
22:33:44 <kmc> such as that if you want to blame the holocaust on hitler being a christian then you can also blame atheism for stalin
22:33:57 <nooodl> tory-bashing sounded like this was just going to be a big awful toribash pun
22:34:56 <Taneb> My childhood spent in a tory family with a lot of labour friends has left me with few to vote for
22:35:13 <ais523> Taneb: are you currently able to take the Lib Dems seriously?
22:35:29 <Taneb> ais523, no, but I can't take any of the other big parties seriously either
22:35:37 <Taneb> So I end up voting for lib dems anyway
22:35:41 <ais523> what about the small parties?
22:35:59 <prooftechnique> Yeah, like that white supremacist one. I imagine they're a fun bunch
22:36:01 <Taneb> They so far haven't ran in elections where I've voted for
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22:36:38 <ais523> which constituency is hexham in anyway?
22:36:53 <ais523> I'm used to Birmingham which is lots of constituencies
22:36:58 <ais523> but Hexham's probably just a fraction of one
22:37:26 <ais523> oh, it's a constituency of its own?
22:37:28 <Taneb> Which is by area I think one of the largest in England
22:38:41 <Taneb> Yeah, both times I've voted (once in the Police Commissioners election, once in a county council election), there have been precisely four candidates
22:39:01 <Taneb> One labour, one tory, one lib dem, and one ukip
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22:40:59 <Taneb> Both times, I've voted lib dem, and both times, the lib dems have outright lost
22:41:03 <oerjan> ais523: you removed the check for number of edits? btw i tried to test run it, but nothing matched... oh wait we've already deleted those :D
22:41:19 <ais523> I thought that the edit count check might be causing the rule to not match
22:41:30 <ais523> and then match when I test ran it because the users had a different number of edits then
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22:45:12 <Bike> https://twitter.com/genometweet useful service
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22:49:37 <oerjan> ais523: ok now it blocks _me_ from starting my user page with a header so it must be doing _something_.
22:49:51 <ais523> try with the new section button
22:49:54 <ais523> that's what the bots are using
22:50:36 <ais523> the button doesn't appear on user pages
22:50:45 <ais523> so you have to get that via link editing
22:51:47 <prooftechnique> I hope the people writing these spambots at least have the decency to write them in an esolang
22:52:03 <ais523> prooftechnique: the people writing them aren't the people running them
22:52:17 <oerjan> ais523: oooh i think i know why it doesn't work...
22:52:50 <oerjan> when using add section, there are _no_ literal ==s added by the user, it's in a different form field...
22:53:56 <oerjan> hm this means something disturbing, let's check...
22:55:22 <oerjan> hm no, for some reason editing a section does not trigger the filter.
22:55:45 <oerjan> even though the edit area does start with == then
22:57:48 <oerjan> ais523: oh i know i forgot an important test. trying again...
22:59:52 <oerjan> wait no i didn't, sheesh. oh well trying anyhow.
23:01:09 <ais523> if the new section button gets round abusefilter
23:01:14 <ais523> then that may be why the spambots are using it
23:01:53 <oerjan> it doesn't. i just managed to trigger it.
23:02:04 <Taneb> `seen Phantom_Hoover
23:02:09 <HackEgo> 2013-11-04 23:35:04: <Phantom_Hoover> imho keep fnord forever
23:02:43 <oerjan> ais523: ok it's _not_ that, the filter triggered this time.
23:03:04 <oerjan> unless there is some weirdness...
23:03:38 <ais523> well there's clearly weirdness
23:03:41 <fungot> shachaf: i think it's pretty clear, i think it's bbls that's confused. perl is a lisp
23:03:43 <ais523> we're just not sure what sort of weirdness yet
23:03:55 <oerjan> ok trying the really bad stuff
23:03:57 <ais523> "perl is a lisp" is gold :)
23:06:04 <oerjan> ais523: darn creating my page anew did _not_ trigger the filter.
23:06:35 <ais523> but we know that in general, it can trigger on page creations
23:06:39 <ais523> because 1/2/3 do that all the time
23:06:59 <oerjan> well if those pages didn't crash when we tried to load them...
23:07:13 <ais523> maybe 4 doesn't work properly /because/ it doesn't crash on load
23:07:20 <ais523> also you may be able to load them indirectly
23:07:33 <ais523> it has a button to copy the filter condition from a filter
23:07:44 <ais523> so you could get at their conditions, even if you couldn't edit them
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23:18:04 <Taneb> quintopia, which day is that?
23:18:22 <Taneb> I think my today is a different day to oerjan's, for example
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23:19:09 <oerjan> ais523: nr. 1 just has user_editcount == 0 but i guess you modified that in 4 as a wild guess to why it wasn't working.
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23:22:18 <oerjan> ais523: ok next question, why don't my blocked edits show up in the abuse log (for any of the filters)
23:22:39 <ais523> oerjan: possibly because you're an admin
23:23:29 <oerjan> also, is a 40something error the right result to get on a blocked edit
23:23:46 <ais523> normally you get a warning, if "Warn" is set
23:24:11 <oerjan> well Warn is only set on nr. 1 afair
23:24:28 <ais523> yeah, to avoid blocking legitimate users
23:25:16 <oerjan> well i cannot be bothered to make another account just to test things.
23:25:46 <ais523> I did on Wikipedia, eventually
23:25:51 <ais523> but yeah MediaWiki's a mess
23:27:51 <oerjan> i have this feeling the world is approaching the bug singularity this year.
23:29:29 <oerjan> IE11 managed to add a bug that makes tab groups dissolve occasionally when you close tabs in them. :(
23:30:07 <oerjan> it did fix one bug that had annoyed me in IE10 though.
23:34:48 <oerjan> elliott: ais523: i'd like to point out that _all_ of the filters, not just 4, stopped registering anything in the abuse log after Nov 5.
23:35:00 <oerjan> while having plenty of hits on that day.
23:35:04 <ais523> oerjan: yeah but I haven't seen any edits that would have hit 1, 2, or 3
23:35:22 <ais523> probably because I did a bunch of rangeblocks on that day
23:35:23 <oerjan> well in that case, maybe something is wrong with the _logging_?
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00:17:48 <Taneb> ...it's possible to easily argue for either way in almost all political issues
00:18:10 <Bike> it's possible to easily argue for either way on any issue.
00:18:11 <Taneb> I don't think I know how to form an unbiased opinion
00:18:28 <Bike> What would an "unbiased opinion" even be
00:19:06 <Taneb> One that weighs fairly all, or a reasonable sample thereof, parameters, I guess
00:20:17 <Bike> what's "fairly"
00:20:40 <Taneb> But I've made myself sad
00:21:22 <Taneb> Also I forgot to eat my bread
00:21:27 <Taneb> And now it's gone moldy
00:21:50 <Taneb> Excuse me while I dump an entire loaf in the bin
00:22:06 <Bike> losing an entire load of bread really is a sad situation.
00:22:58 <ais523\unfoog> Taneb: I ended up refusing to eat bread for months because of that
00:23:40 * oerjan just keeps it in the fridge and/or freezer, barbaric he is.
00:23:48 <olsner> I keep my bread frozen until I'm ready to breadbinge
00:24:05 <Bike> i can't... did i just read that...
00:24:24 <quintopia> i buy bread that's CHOCK FULL OF PRESERVATIVES
00:24:24 <oerjan> Bike: shocking, isn't it.
00:25:01 <oerjan> Bike: some people are master schedulers.
00:26:09 <olsner> I usually find that I need bread to finish the bread spreads, and then I need bread spreads to finish the bread
00:26:38 <oerjan> and some people like me buy new once he's opened the last package. and sometimes before.
00:27:02 <oerjan> olsner: so if they ever match up you'll starve to death?
00:27:15 <olsner> I might fall back to eating other things
00:27:39 <olsner> I don't remember finding myself in that situation though
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00:28:30 <oerjan> actually i used to keep bread in a drawer, but then i got insects in the drawer, and i have used the fridge since.
00:31:36 <quintopia> someone give me a good name for an esolang
00:34:00 <Bike> Given a physical object, how would you measure its surface area?
00:34:34 <Taneb> Also I realised my milk was past its due date
00:34:34 <oerjan> Bike: it depends on resolution, fractals you know
00:34:42 <olsner> if it looks enough like a sphere I might look up the formula for diameter -> surface area
00:34:57 <Taneb> ais523\unfoog, the problem is I can EASILY eat the bread fast enough, I just don't
00:35:09 <Bike> physical object, oerjan.
00:35:23 <oerjan> Bike: physical objects are surprisingly fractal.
00:35:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Long_Is_the_Coast_of_Britain%3F_Statistical_Self-Similarity_and_Fractional_Dimension
00:36:19 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox
00:36:35 <Bike> i'm just weirded out since i realized that measuring volume is easy, but then I see something like "lungs have an internal surface area of 70 m²" and just swallow it without thinking.
00:36:44 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm assuming you went with MoWglI.
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00:37:30 <Bike> (it looks like they estimate it by measuring the area of (roughly spherical) alveoli and then guessing how many of those there are)
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00:38:34 <oerjan> and i'm sure if you look closely those alveoli aren't smooth either.
00:38:49 <oerjan> and once you get down to atoms, does area even make sense.
00:39:00 <Bike> Maybe in that specific case you could guess it backwards by seeing how much oxygen they can take in...
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00:39:26 <Bike> Except how do you measure how much one unit surface area can do.
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00:40:09 <oerjan> so basically it's assumptions all the way down.
00:40:23 <oerjan> until you hit the turtles, at least.
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00:42:19 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i think heisenberg uncertainty may be involved.
00:42:53 <prooftechnique> If there are seagulls on the beach, all of modern mathematics will come crashing down
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00:47:12 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
00:52:16 <kmc> twitter IPO tomorrow
00:52:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
00:52:56 -!- nisstyre has joined.
00:53:28 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/{"Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download","real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download"}
00:53:38 <oerjan> `? Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
00:53:40 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
00:54:29 <oerjan> `run ls -1 wisdom/* | grep '[A-Z]'
00:54:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/` \ wisdom/`? \ wisdom/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ wisdom/? \ wisdom/?? \ wisdom/@ \ wisdom/☃ \ wisdom/⌨ \ wisdom/⊥ \ wisdom/🐐 \ wisdom/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏̚̚
00:55:00 <oerjan> `run ls -1 wisdom/* | grep '[[:UPPER:]]'
00:55:02 <HackEgo> grep: Invalid character class name
00:55:20 <oerjan> `run ls -1 wisdom/* | grep '[[:upper:]]'
00:55:22 <HackEgo> wisdom/Ø \ wisdom/wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
00:55:54 <HackEgo> Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug
00:56:04 <oerjan> ...i guess that stays.
00:58:50 <oerjan> `? substructural typing
00:58:53 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
00:59:03 <oerjan> `? structural subtyping
00:59:05 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with substructural typing.
00:59:27 <kmc> true wisdom
01:03:46 <oerjan> `run echo "Something Bike is into. Not to be confused with suburban destruction." >wisdom/"structsubural type"
01:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, {also ais523\unfoog and oerjan in case he's not listening}, i suggest doing the admin work on the esolangs wiki with an account in the bot group
01:10:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how is the fortress going
01:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> because these ongoing spam wars are making recent changes useless
01:10:11 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure that works for blocks and deletions
01:10:18 <ais523\unfoog> we can remove /edits/ from recent changes even without a bot-group account
01:10:48 <Phantom_Hoover> wouldn't get rid of the spammers' user creation logs, unfortunately
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01:13:43 <quintopia> oerjan: i left to unpack my pack. i didn't go with anything. did you have a better idea?
01:14:21 <oerjan> how can i have a better idea when i don't know what mwi means.
01:14:35 <Bike> most westerly incinerator
01:15:45 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: hm. ok remind me how we got the bot flag set again.
01:16:02 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: there's a user rights setting interface that only bureaucrats can use
01:16:04 <quintopia> oerjan: hugh everett's quantum mechanics interpretation
01:16:42 <quintopia> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation
01:16:49 <Bike> what is the point of the initialism
01:17:08 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: hm i thought i was supposed to have access to do bot edits or do i remember wrong
01:17:45 <quintopia> i think "elliott's the only bureaucrat" is a wonderful name for an esolang
01:17:48 <ais523\unfoog> you put ?bot=1 or &bot=1 as appropriate at the end of a contributions URL
01:17:49 <Phantom_Hoover> that keeps your actions from showing up on recent changes
01:18:03 <Bike> Can I do "foo[1:7] = bar[1:7]" to assign seven bits of bus?
01:18:03 <ais523\unfoog> then the rollback button makes both your edits, and the edits you roll back, get flagged as bot
01:18:32 <Bike> in verilog i guess i should mention.
01:18:41 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: ok and that won't work with page deletions and/or blocks?
01:19:09 <Bike> my life would be much happier if builds didn't take five minutes, i feel
01:19:12 <ais523\unfoog> in Wikipedia, deletions are major enough that hiding them from the log would be a bad idea
01:19:41 <oerjan> and in wikipedia new users can't create pages iirc
01:20:17 <oerjan> which would be untenable on our wiki
01:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> wasn't there an incident when a wikipedia admin deleted some major discussion page and fucked the database
01:21:16 <Bike> ais523\unfoog: can you help me out here
01:21:48 <Bike> oh right, you don't know verilog.
01:21:51 <Bike> well, fuck everything.
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01:22:01 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: it was the old version WP:AFD, I think
01:22:02 <kmc> Bike: a fresh build of the thing i work on takes 25 minutes
01:22:08 <kmc> and that's on the fastest computer I have access to
01:22:16 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: they're basically feature-identical but use different syntax for everything
01:22:19 <Bike> kmc: real job though.
01:22:25 <kmc> something like that.
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01:25:02 <Bike> this is just homework i've been slacking on. makes flashy lights
01:36:15 <quintopia> oerjan: how about "Quantum Fuckicide"? :D
01:36:56 <quintopia> "This Language Does Not Exist In Your Universe"
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01:41:32 <oerjan> strictly monotonic, surely?
01:41:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:42:17 <oerjan> otherwise f x | x <= 1/2 = 2*x | otherwise = 1 would work.
01:43:49 <Phantom__Hoover> i remember when a guy wasted like ten minutes of an analysis lecture by asking if a function had to be strictly increasing, despite the fact that it had already been taken to be injective
01:47:26 <oerjan> now prove there is no continuous bijection from [0,1)^n to [0,1]^n >:)
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01:49:32 <Koen_> today someone asked me to prove that if a sub-algebra of the set of continuous functions from [0, 1] to R had finite dimension, then it was the set of constant functions
01:50:16 <Koen_> (algebra with addition (f+g)(x) = f(x) + g(x) and multiplication (f*g)(x) = f(x)g(x))
01:52:43 <Bike> i tried to stop a build and the entire ide crashed. i hate this program so much.
01:53:12 <kmc> i just removed about 10 makefiles
01:53:18 <kmc> let's see if it still builds
01:54:58 <oerjan> Koen_: that reminds me of an important theorem which i cannot remember the name for
02:02:15 <oerjan> ah the Stone-Weierstrass theorem
02:02:34 <Bike> yeah i'd say that's just a tad important
02:03:21 <Koen_> the name clearly rings a bell but IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME soooooo
02:03:54 <Bike> the one where you can approximate (continuous? i forget) functions with polynomials.
02:04:00 <oerjan> i finally found it when i got the idea to google the ingredients of the theorem instead of finding the right wikipedia subject/mathematician
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02:06:55 <oerjan> hm that's not the most obvious too powerful theorem to use for Koen_'s proof
02:07:31 <Koen_> it's not supposed to be too hard, he apparently expected me to give an answer within ten minutes
02:08:02 <kmc> woah dude 'length' is a monoid homomorphism isn't it
02:08:11 <quintopia> what is the polynomial that approximates the weierstrass function
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02:09:45 <oerjan> Koen_: what i'm thinking of is that a closed subalgebra with unit of C(X) is isomorphic to C(X/function dividing out the points which the algebra doesn't distinguish)
02:10:31 <oerjan> since it's finite dimensional, the X/... must be finite, but X is connected so it must be a single point QED
02:10:58 <Koen_> is C(X) the set of fractional functions? or whatever you call polynom/polynom
02:11:26 <oerjan> it's the continuous functions from X to R, where X is a compact hausdorff space (e.g. [0,1])
02:11:40 <elliott> kmc: (sum . map (const 1)) should make that obvious :)
02:12:05 <oerjan> i.e. the algebra you're inside.
02:12:14 <elliott> or more explicitly, foldMap (\_ -> Sum 1)
02:12:39 <kmc> elliott: yeah
02:13:28 <kmc> 'sum' is also a monoid homomorphism
02:13:43 <Bike> more like monoid gaymorphism
02:13:55 <Bike> i don't know why i said that. it was dumb. sorry.
02:14:00 <Koen_> oerjan: and "connected" is that property of a set that basically says "if two points 'touch' eachother then they're equal?"
02:14:07 <elliott> kmc: sum is and map (const 1) is
02:14:24 <elliott> and homomorphisms of a monoid form a category
02:14:32 <oerjan> Koen_: no. it's the property that says the space is not the union of two disjoint open sets.
02:14:40 <elliott> kmc: (of course, map f is for any f)
02:15:06 <oerjan> it's preserved by continuous surjective functions.
02:16:18 <elliott> kmc: you should read http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.45.2247&rep=rep1&type=pdf, it's exciting!
02:16:31 <elliott> then maybe also https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/edwardk/conquering-folds (where I found it from)
02:16:38 <Bike> is that a direct link to a pdf!
02:17:00 <oerjan> Koen_: what you said could be called "being in the same connected component"
02:17:04 <Koen_> I'm still not sure what the X/ means - is that some sort of set quotient? as in dividing by the Ker of the function or something
02:17:47 <Koen_> oerjan: no, I was refering to a weird thing that almost any set I can imagine verifies but witch some weiiiiiird sets do not
02:18:05 <Koen_> in french we call it either "séparé" or "séparable", I never remember which
02:18:16 <oerjan> Koen_: actually it's just the range of the function, it's just that you can think of a function's range as the quotient of the domain by the equivalence relation of being mapped to the same point.
02:19:22 <oerjan> if the domain is compact hausdorff and the range is hausdorff, then that also transfers the topology.
02:20:06 <oerjan> (i maybe should have mentioned that all the spaces involved here are compact hausdorff)
02:20:15 <Koen_> I also remember I used to know what hausdorff meant. and the more we talk about this the more I think I never should have stopped studying math
02:20:44 <Bike> math sucks. go into geophysics.
02:25:20 <oerjan> kmc: [a] is the free monoid over a, and Sum . length is the lifting to the monoid category of the morphism Sum . const 1 in the set category.
02:28:31 <oerjan> by that natural transformation of adjoint functors
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03:26:15 <oerjan> elliott: ais523\unfoog: ok don't kill me :D
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03:31:27 <ais523\unfoog> should keep us safe until they crack the CAPTCHA again
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03:31:58 <oerjan> that was everyone in november + one more because the last one had already been blocked and i needed somewhere to put my SORRY
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04:42:24 <Sgeo> I think you blocked an innocent
04:42:24 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Wingpad
04:49:52 <ais523\unfoog> Sgeo: can you check the others for false positives too?
04:50:16 <Sgeo> I mostly only noticed that one because of the nongibberish name :/
04:51:02 <Sgeo> I'll consider any with no edits a spammer
04:52:50 <Sgeo> Only Wingpad seems to have made changes
04:55:29 <oerjan> oops, and i checked a couple others because their names were almost not gibberish too...
04:56:21 <elliott> perhaps checkuser would come in handy here?
04:56:47 <ais523\unfoog> however there are lots of random IPs that don't fit a pattern, too
04:58:52 <oerjan> i was basically trying to get them all, since the recent flood began.
04:59:48 <oklopol> "<Koen_> today someone asked me to prove that if a sub-algebra of the set of continuous functions from [0, 1] to R had finite dimension, then it was the set of constant functions" <<< i'd use Vandemonde
05:00:00 <oklopol> If f is one of the functions f(x) != f(y) then [f(x), f(y)] \subset f([0, 1]), so we can choose distinct b_1, ..., b_k \in f([0, 1]) (with preimages f(a_i) = b_i) for any k. The claim now follows because: 1. the vectors (b_1^i, b_2^i ..., b_k^i) for i \in [0,k-1] are linearly independent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandermonde_matrix),
05:00:07 <Bike> isn't vandemonde a final fantasy villain
05:00:13 <oklopol> 2. the map H(f) = (f(a_1), ..., f(a_k)) is linear from your space of interest to R^k, and 3. H(f^i) = (b_1^i, b_2^i ..., b_k^i).
05:00:55 <oerjan> also a girl genius character (who seems to be relatively good)
05:01:27 <oerjan> hm wait his name is vanamonde
05:01:59 <oklopol> i didn't understand your proof
05:03:31 <Bike> http://stricture-group.com/files/adobe-top100.txt
05:04:10 <oerjan> oklopol: a closed unital subalgebra A of C(X) is naturally isomorphic to C(Y) where Y is X with all the points that are not distinguished by any element of A identified.
05:05:08 <oerjan> the map from X to Y is surjective and continuous, thus Y must be connected since X is.
05:06:04 <oerjan> since C(Y) is finite dimensional Y must have a finite number of points, oh hm this might be slightly circular.
05:06:04 <oklopol> sowhere do you get the "closed", is that automatic from the finite-dimensionality?
05:06:16 <oklopol> where do you get the "unital"?
05:06:29 <oklopol> does that mean has the constant 1 map?
05:06:29 <oerjan> just add a unit if you don't have one >:)
05:07:12 <oerjan> hm or not circular, it follows from urysohn's lemma.
05:08:12 <oerjan> mind you by that point it may be more complicated than your idea >:)
05:08:25 <oklopol> wait what follows from urysohn's lemma
05:08:46 <oerjan> that an infinite set Y cannot have finite-dimensional C(Y)
05:11:30 <oklopol> do you know what gibbs measures are
05:12:26 <oklopol> i'm supposed to give a talk on how they are the same thing as equilibrium measures
05:12:34 <oklopol> (i haven't checked what the latter are yet)
05:12:42 <oerjan> which i don't recall either :)
05:13:15 <Sgeo> I'm going to have a "fun" day tomorrow
05:13:25 <Bike> I'm going to have a fun day tomorrow.
05:13:45 <oklopol> and given a function f, finding the measure m such that h(m)+m(f) is maximized, where m(f) is the integral, and h(m) is the entropy
05:13:55 <oerjan> I'm going to have a fun "day" tomorrow.
05:14:09 <oklopol> i'm going to have a" "fun day tomorrow
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07:11:12 <shachaf> kmc: is there a way to give someone, say, a sha1 hash and a proof that you have a message that hashes to it
07:11:31 <shachaf> (without revealing the message)
07:16:30 <Fiora> that sounds... gosh, thinking about it, kind of hard
07:21:43 <oerjan> seems like a standard zero-knowledge proof to me?
07:22:09 <fizzie> It does sound hard; but then, all zero-knowledge proof things sound kind of freaky.
07:22:46 <kmc> I don't know how to construct a ZKP protocol for an arbitrary problem other than by reduction to an existing ZKP problem but maybe that's enough?
07:22:56 <fizzie> Apparently there's at least a presentation titled "A zero-knowledge proof of possession of a pre-image of a SHA-1 hash" around.
07:23:43 <fizzie> Possibly something based on http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2FBFb0055745
07:24:52 <shachaf> i took sha-1 as an arbitrary example of a cryptographic hash
07:25:20 <oerjan> i'd imagine you just encode a circuit checking that an arbitrary input hashes to the given hash as one of the NP-complete problems for which zero-knowledge proofs are known
07:25:37 <oerjan> wikipedia has hamiltonian graph as an example
07:26:16 <oerjan> all this needs to work in general, is for calculation of SHA-1 itself to be in P
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07:27:37 <fizzie> It sounds like potentially not terribly efficient.
07:28:45 <oerjan> well the problem instance would be approximately memory * steps used for calculating SHA-1
07:32:05 <oerjan> hm it is not obvious to me that the hamiltonian cycle example really _is_ zero knowledge.
07:33:07 <fizzie> "Peggy will prove that she knows the cycle without simply revealing it (perhaps Victor is interested in buying it but wants verification first --" I wonder how's the market in slightly used Hamiltonian cycles of large graphs.
07:33:10 <shachaf> well i guess you're not claiming it isn't, just saying it's not obvious that it is
07:33:20 <oerjan> because it is not obvious that it is hard to prove that the two graphs are isomorphic
07:33:58 <oerjan> given that they are not constructed to make that hard
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07:34:39 <oerjan> it could be that there are graphs for which hamiltonian cycle is hard to find, yet still easy to show it isomorphic to any of its renamings.
07:41:45 <oerjan> oh i see the talk page has a discussion clarifying things.
07:42:43 <oerjan> the isomorphic graph is _not_ revealed initially, just signatures of its edges.
07:43:24 <oerjan> it is only fully revealed if an isomorphism is asked for. otherwise only the edges in the cycle are revealed.
07:46:05 * oerjan didn't read the description properly, obviously X/
07:47:15 <Lymia> Why isn't there a Java library
07:47:21 <Lymia> That uses terminfo instead of linking to native ncurses
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08:00:41 <fizzie> Possibly becuse of apathy, but also perhaps because not all terminal-related things (like picking up on SIGWINCH, or anything involving tcsetattr) are quite doable from pure Java?
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11:31:03 <fizzie> Your daily ##c: http://sprunge.us/SYJP
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13:49:41 <boily> good untranslatable Finnish morning!
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16:07:28 <boily> Sprhellocklem. KingOfKarlsruhello. asiello.
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16:10:30 <boily> wow. ĝi estas la unua fojo tio okazis al mi.
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16:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> seen elsewhere: "There are three hats (IIRC) to hacking: White hat, red hat, and black hat."
16:39:34 <Bike> just like final fantasy
16:41:05 <Bike> red hats can learn Doublehack, which allows them to crack two passwords in one turn
16:43:33 <boily> what's a brown hat?
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16:44:50 <boily> prooftechellonique.
16:50:19 <fizzie> Bike: Is that related to double compiling?
16:51:25 <fungot> kmc_: right so should i learn them in?
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16:52:59 <boily> fungot: inhale. learn. grok. become even more sentient than you already are, so that your Reign Shall Come!
16:52:59 <fungot> boily: there are lots of optimizations you can make money fast: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ ws/ was/ me
16:53:20 <boily> fungot: oh, scamming people to get rich and Subsidize the Masses!
16:53:20 <fungot> boily: make short program segments of an arbitrarily limited size ( say, c function calls.
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17:06:47 <quintopia> boily: you should try talking with real people
17:07:16 <fizzie> fungot: Did you hear that? He's saying you're not people.
17:07:17 <fungot> fizzie: i don't know your point?
17:07:44 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, yeah, I guess you don't mind.
17:07:44 <fungot> fizzie: you are a pervert!" " fnord
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18:13:47 <boily> back from lunch, and people doubt fungot's existence.
18:13:48 <fungot> boily: do you have problems with this " usual" depends on what you meant
18:14:07 <boily> fizzie: are you a pervert?
18:14:14 <boily> fungot: I don't have problems with you.
18:14:15 <fungot> boily: ( and makes tons of), for instance, if you can
18:21:16 <fungot> FireFly: i'll be surprised if brookline newton were the ' most jewish' towns in the red river valley, austin, and state indices could be stored
18:23:05 <fizzie> boily: Well, now, isn't there a small pervert in every one of us?
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19:19:57 <boily> fizzie once again killed lambdabot.
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19:21:00 <boily> Alo, salut, sunt eu, un Vorpal ♪
19:21:25 <fizzie> I requested no such thing.
19:27:00 <boily> Vorpal: Romanian, as in that infamous song that was somewhat popular a few years ago. FireFly earwormed me with his “'allo 'allo”.
19:27:36 <boily> fizzie: it's only by default, until we find this time's real culprit.
19:28:13 <boily> Vorpal: the French version would have went «Allô, salut, c'est moi, un Vorpal».
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19:41:13 <kmc> fungot: Vorbiţi româneşte?
19:41:14 <fungot> kmc: there are scripts to do. one more sem. to get an object in the language
19:50:11 <fizzie> fungot: Well, fire up one of those scripts and have a go at it, then.
19:50:12 <fungot> fizzie: the number of arguments handled? there are multiple wheels? i guess
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19:53:01 <kmc> ţ, now that's a letter you don't see every day
19:53:05 <kmc> unless you live in romania i guess
19:54:18 <kmc> actually I guess it should be ț and not ţ
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19:56:41 <HackEgo> [U+021B LATIN SMALL LETTER T WITH COMMA BELOW] [U+0163 LATIN SMALL LETTER T WITH CEDILLA]
19:57:21 <boily> the comma is the correct Romanian character. usually confused with cedilla (Turkic) because the latter is more easily obtaine, typed, drawn, encoded, and stuff.
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19:59:51 <fizzie> Are you some kind of a pervert, deliberately choosing a delimiter that makes escaping necessary?
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20:03:22 <boily> fizzie: mwah ah ah.
20:15:50 <kmc> sed fetish
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20:18:55 <Taneb> Did I tell you about my misadventure a couple of weeks ago
20:19:34 <Taneb> Which kmc has just reminded me of
20:22:32 <Bike> http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=THEGQ#symbol=thegq;range=5d;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined; lol
20:23:39 <prooftechnique> In retrospect, I wish I'd had the foresight to invest in Tweeter
20:23:45 <fizzie> Heh, they've changed the stock symbol for it.
20:24:06 <fizzie> It used to be TWTRQ, which is significantly closer to TWTR than the current THEGQ.
20:24:17 <elliott> didn't that happen with another stock before?
20:24:42 <Bike> "Groogle Bioimplants got a huge boost"
20:26:26 <kmc> btw symbol ending in Q indicates that the company is bankrupt
20:26:29 <kmc> if you didn't know
20:26:47 <fizzie> They've called it quits.
20:27:04 <kmc> e.g. General Motors which went from being NYSE:GM and part of the DJIA to being GMGMQ on pink sheets
20:27:19 <prooftechnique> I'll bet Aardwolf Party Lanterns gets a good accidental boost, now and again
20:27:41 <kmc> also I find it hilarious that Washington Mutual sold their plum NYSE:WM ticker to Waste Management, Inc
20:27:46 <Bike> but stock is still traded? (nb i know nothing about finance or business or hi)
20:28:28 <fizzie> Bike: It also went bankrupt all the way back in 2007.
20:28:36 <kmc> Bike: yeah, it's not clear to me why bankrupt stock trades at a non-zero price, because theoretically equity holders are last in line to get anything at bankruptcy court
20:29:05 <kmc> Bike: one explanation I heard from someone very knowledgable is that, this is the case in theory, but in practice if you own a huge chunk of the equity you can show up in court and annoy the jugde enough that they will give you something just to go away
20:29:16 <kmc> but "people are dumb" is another promising answer
20:29:18 <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar
20:29:26 <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society
20:29:32 <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
20:29:39 <kmc> that is beautiful
20:29:43 <kmc> what kind of fetish(es)
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20:30:02 <Taneb> They had just finished a show and tell and were going to the bar afterwards
20:30:05 <kmc> there are a lot
20:30:09 <kmc> aw, did you miss the show and tell?
20:30:22 <Taneb> I don't think they are too restrictive on which fetishes
20:30:23 <Bike> kmc: this company went down years ago, isn't court already over
20:30:23 <boily> your university has a fetish society??????????????
20:30:27 <Taneb> Someone was carrying a violin
20:30:31 <kmc> Bike: beats me
20:30:53 <boily> Taneb: I am disturbed.
20:31:05 * kmc finds that "fetish" and "kink" are often used to mean BDSM specifically and is pretty annoyed by this fact
20:31:16 <Bike> now i'm wondering if my school has a 'fetish society'
20:31:17 <kmc> but also I'm probably doing the thing P_H hates
20:31:34 <kmc> where I start a conversation about how Some People do something dumb
20:31:41 <Bike> http://public.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/20th/surrealism.html noooooot quite
20:32:10 <kmc> this reminds me a bit of the first graf on http://www.mit.edu/~mitsfs/related-groups.html
20:32:12 <fizzie> "FINRA believed that trading in the TWTRQ security demonstrated a widespread misunderstanding related to the possible initial public offering of an unrelated security." nice deadpan tone.
20:32:20 <Taneb> kmc, if you're worried that you're doing something he hates, picture him watching the Big Bang Theory and then you'll be even
20:32:29 <kmc> does he do that?
20:32:43 <Bike> i'm only getting hits from sociological research. which makes a shockking amount of sense.
20:32:47 <kmc> I've actually seen a good chunk of BBT... but I don't feel good about that fact
20:32:52 <Bike> http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/sites/www.vancouver.wsu.edu/files/insertable_images/nwcg-fiftyshadesofgrey.jpg behold
20:33:08 <kmc> brb naming my sex toy company "insertable images"
20:33:21 <Bike> oh, shit. fifty shades actually mentions wsu
20:33:29 <Bike> i'm like, kinky by association now, i bet
20:34:26 <Bike> "In the Habit of Being Kinky: Practice and Resistance in a BDSM Community, Texas, USA"
20:34:30 <kmc> also I don't think NYSE:Q is bankrupt
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20:37:32 <fizzie> I don't think we have a fetish society, though there's quite a lot of them.
20:37:53 <fizzie> Like a drinking game society, apparently.
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20:41:40 <fizzie> Sometimes it's nontrivial to derive the topic from the name. Like "The Hangovers", which seems to be about climbing.
20:42:20 <kmc> that's like http://www.reddit.com/r/MarijuanaEnthusiasts
20:42:56 <shachaf> zomg syntax highlighting in papers
20:43:29 <Bike> papers on arxiv have links and cites highlighted in different colors a lot
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20:44:23 <Bike> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621334/#s001title speaking of #drugz
20:44:42 <Bike> the "tropical hurricane" of youth
20:44:52 <fizzie> http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/11/do-not-clench-your-buttocks-in-deming-new-mexico.html speaking of #drugz
20:45:09 <fizzie> ("Deming" reminds one of bad keming.)
20:45:34 <kmc> shachaf: i've seen papers that use the color modes of lhs2TeX
20:46:07 * boily kicks ~duck in the lambdas
20:46:16 <Bike> fizzie: fascinating
20:46:20 <shachaf> kmc: i didn't know that existe
20:48:48 <kmc> fizzie: that's really fucked up :(
20:49:51 <boily> I knew it. I knew I had that copy over there. http://pastebin.ca/2474654
20:50:54 <Bike> holy sht that's long
20:56:53 <shachaf> kmc: <elly> Chrome just recently grew support for CHACHA20_POLY1305 for SSL
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21:21:52 <boily> http://imgur.com/xsRpp3Z
21:23:11 <Bike> the actual list is good too
21:28:45 <metasepia> CYUL 072100Z 26014KT 15SM OVC040 05/M03 A2983 RMK SC8 SLP103
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21:34:47 <kmc> shachaf: nice
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21:40:06 <kmc> "When filled with many single Lego bricks, a washing machine generates random complexes." (PDF) http://www.althofer.de/random-lego-structures.pdf
21:48:17 <fizzie> @tell boily Looks like zeta.
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21:50:31 <Bike> kmc: "analog monte carlo procedures" omg
21:50:43 <fizzie> @tell boily (It's https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131107-loglog.png with both axes logarithmic, and zeta would be a line there, so okay, not a terribly good fit.)
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21:56:26 <Bike> Figure 2.2: A Lego enzyme candidate ?!
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23:28:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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23:56:59 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
23:57:05 <HackEgo> 1129) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
23:59:43 * oerjan ponders the fact that the formatted logs apparently merge consecutive spaces
00:00:18 <oerjan> i cannot quite be bothered to check whether there were any in that quote, though.
00:01:03 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what ørjan is pondering?
00:01:03 <lambdabot> It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob.
00:01:16 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what oerjan is pondering?
00:01:16 <lambdabot> What can I do for fun, Pinky? That's it! I'll send several
00:01:16 <lambdabot> bills to Senate for ratification, then veto them all!
00:01:25 * oerjan swats lambdabot -----###
00:01:27 <shachaf> @brain did someone break @brain?
00:01:27 <lambdabot> Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
00:01:35 <shachaf> @brain where are the pinky quotes?
00:01:35 <lambdabot> Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
00:01:40 <lambdabot> Well, I think so, but Kevin Costner with an English accent?
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00:01:49 <lambdabot> quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s pinky brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber
00:01:54 <oerjan> shachaf: um does it actually pay any attention to the part after @brain
00:02:02 <shachaf> oerjan: Not that I know of.
00:02:09 <shachaf> Who split up Pinky and the Brain?
00:03:38 <oerjan> @tell gregor You should fix the formatted log style not to squeeze consecutive spaces. for quote accuracy, you see.
00:05:31 <oerjan> shachaf: the separatists
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00:09:05 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm a separatist myself but i haven't heard of that
00:09:10 <shachaf> it must be a different faction
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00:13:29 <oerjan> <kmc> this reminds me a bit of the first graf on http://www.mit.edu/~mitsfs/related-groups.html <-- which graf, and also why didn't they add another I for the nice anagram.
00:16:11 <oerjan> preferably second last
00:16:18 <lexande> because they fit in just fine at MIT
00:18:28 <oerjan> my old alma mater wasn't the only one to dodge a bullet here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUST
00:23:50 <kmc> but people pronounce it "mits fiss" or so
00:23:56 <kmc> so I don't think the connection is un-noticed
00:24:10 <oerjan> <kmc> that's like http://www.reddit.com/r/MarijuanaEnthusiasts <-- XD
00:24:31 <oerjan> talk about inside joke
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00:29:03 <augur_> does anyone know of any contests or challenges where a particular language has its syntax "funged" so as to be unrecognizable, with the task of recovering the language by poking at programs?
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01:09:52 <kmc> another awesomely named MIT club is MITBEEF
01:09:54 <kmc> the beef club
01:10:17 <kmc> they got passes to some huge meat convention that was going on in boston
01:10:19 <kmc> pretty sweet
01:10:31 <kmc> we had a Meat Club which was slightly less focused (I think they served snail at one point)
01:10:42 <kmc> Caltech also had a Hazing Club
01:10:44 <kmc> opt-in of course
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01:16:54 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.theonion.com/articles/freedom-takes-a-hit,33699/
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01:22:17 <kmc> i wonder if the kmc #drugz thing is getting old
01:22:26 <kmc> and i have done nothing but encourage it so far
01:23:54 <augur> kmc: what should i look for!
01:24:22 <augur> re: "does anyone know of any contests or challenges where a particular language has its syntax "funged" so as to be unrecognizable, with the task of recovering the language by poking at programs?"
01:24:33 <lexande> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Club The Sublime Society of Beef Steaks
01:27:35 <kmc> lexande: nice
01:28:05 <kmc> augur: uh, one of the io.smashthestack.org challenges involves reverse engineering a compiled, obfuscated binary of an interpreter for a stack machine
01:28:12 <kmc> in order to then write programs for that machine
01:28:24 <kmc> that doesn't quite sound like what you mean though
01:28:35 <augur> kmc: do you know of any methodologies for such reverse engineering tasks?
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01:30:59 <kmc> i don't know much about the general practice of RE, no
01:31:20 <kmc> i mean "look at the code and figure out what it does"
01:31:23 <kmc> not very satisfying
01:31:52 <kmc> there are tools that will find basic blocks, build control flow graphs, express them as pseudo-C, let you assign names to variables as you figure them out, etc
01:32:22 <kmc> https://hex-rays.com/products/ida/index.shtml is the gold standard of RE tools; http://www.hopperapp.com/ is getting a lot of good press lately
01:32:37 <kmc> http://radare.org also looks quite cool
01:32:41 <kmc> i haven't used any of them
01:33:00 <augur> those things usually depend on knowledge of the code structure tho
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01:33:06 <kmc> oh i did use the freeware version of IDA for DOS to reverse engineer a late 20th century French-Canadian apothecary sign
01:33:16 <kmc> but the code was not obfuscated at all
01:33:26 <augur> imagine instead if you found a language where all the tokens were permuted with random things
01:33:47 <augur> so that it looked like line noise
01:34:01 <augur> how would you figure out what a program in such a language did?
01:34:28 <kmc> that's kind of a cryptanalysis problem
01:34:57 <augur> cryptanalysis doesnt let you probe the program however you want
01:35:18 <augur> you get a blackbox compiler/interpreter, and some example programs
01:35:47 <augur> infact, as many example programs as you want, lets say a billion just for fun
01:36:12 <augur> and you can run them, or maybe search through them by the effects they have, described broadly
01:36:25 <augur> and you can edit and run programs too
01:36:38 <augur> how would you figure out what was going on?
01:37:27 <Bike> pretty much been my experience with matlab
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01:38:03 <Bike> it's been fascinating how much good i can do for a program i don't understand a damned thing about
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02:22:19 <Sgeo> Would it be odd to go to StackOverflow to ask a question then answer it immediately?
02:22:38 <Sgeo> Couldn't find the answer to a question I had about IE, determined the answer experimentally
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02:38:15 <Taneb> aaaah oh god I'm going to be playing D&D
02:39:18 <kmc> don't give in to satan
02:40:01 <pikhq> Helel on the other hand?
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02:51:06 <trout> prooftechnique: context?
02:51:19 <prooftechnique> [21:22:19] Sgeo: Would it be odd to go to StackOverflow to ask a question then answer it immediately?
02:51:20 <prooftechnique> [21:22:38] Sgeo: Couldn't find the answer to a question I had about IE, determined the answer experimentally
02:51:28 <trout> oh yeah, its totally fine
02:51:31 <trout> they even encourage it
02:54:34 <Taneb> I'm... going to be playing D&D with a pacifist character
02:55:17 <kmc> if you beat the first mission of Deus Ex without killing anyone you get an achievement but also your fellow cybernetically enhanced super-soldiers will make fun of you for being a wuss
02:58:51 <prooftechnique> You'll also be woefully ill-equipped for the outsourced boss fights
02:59:36 <prooftechnique> Taneb: Tell them to use the Book of Exalted Deeds rules
03:09:58 <Taneb> Also, today I found out that vegans can eat bread
03:10:37 <Taneb> quintopia, I was getting the recipe mixed up with cake
03:10:45 <Taneb> I thought bread had milk and eggs
03:15:16 <oerjan> i think zzo38 plays his character with minimal violence, i am not sure if he's entirely pacifist or not.
03:24:27 <kmc> some bread has eggs i think
03:24:29 <kmc> and some cake doesn't
03:24:50 <kmc> vegans can eat fungi even though they're closer to animals than to plants
03:25:20 <kmc> which is good because bread is mostly made using fungi
03:26:28 <kmc> except for salt rising bread, which is made using a bacterium from the same genus as tetanus and gas gangrene and botulism
03:26:44 <kmc> #terrifyingbreadfacts
03:29:07 <quintopia> what about bread using baking soda leavening
03:33:32 <kmc> flatbread, fair enough
03:33:38 <kmc> can you bake bread with only baking soda and no yeast?
03:33:45 <kmc> i thought it was used as an additional component
03:33:46 <kmc> but I dunn
03:33:49 <kmc> I'm no baker
03:34:35 <oerjan> flatbread is not vegetarian. it is made from flatfish flour (nn:kveitemjøl, from nn:kveite, halibut)
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04:07:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/aNPE
04:08:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 51.9
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04:34:51 <Sgeo> So, there are now two questions that I really should get around to asking and answering on SO
04:48:51 <quintopia> when i'm on my SO, i'm not usually thinking about asking and answering questions
04:50:53 <oklopol> (was trying to see if someone linked the password file i've been hearing so much about here)
04:51:04 <Bike> i did a while ago
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04:51:29 <oklopol> (but ctrl+f often just pops up the find box but doesn't make it focused)
04:51:29 <quintopia> Bike: the one that's like the world's greatest crossword puzzle according to xkcd?
04:52:45 <oklopol> Bike: you showed some top100 thing?
04:54:21 <oklopol> "30. 28132 Ttgs5+ZAZM7ioxG6CatHBw== princess"
04:55:00 <Bike> that was a question mark
04:55:15 <oklopol> i don't understand how random words get on these lists
04:55:48 <Bike> maybe i just want the password recovery thing to call me a princess. since no one ELSE does
05:01:16 <oklopol> i have a friend who does some sort of computer security research and uses a short unary password almost everywhere, and happily tells people what it is
05:01:41 <oklopol> 8. 113884 7LqYzKVeq8I= 111111
05:04:12 <oerjan> so is it research in how to be secure even if everyone knows your password?
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05:07:14 <myname> maybe he should've used 666666
05:08:12 <quintopia> i'ma get a lightbeam. dunno what to expect from it...i don't browse much
05:17:30 <oklopol> "<Bike> papers on arxiv have links and cites highlighted in different colors a lot" <<< this will not surprise anyone, but anyway: this is because you send the tex and they compile it that way
05:19:31 <oklopol> (as opposed to there being an arxiv style that has that which you can use, say)
05:20:07 <oklopol> come to think of it, i guess they could just add those to pdfs too
05:20:43 <oklopol> if you send them a pdf that's generated from tex source, they notice it and tell you to submit the tex instead
05:29:21 <Bike> haha, of course
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06:14:06 <kmc> "@windyoona @0xabad1dea fun story: Lego bricks form a free trace monoid just like the one from process calculus! They model parallelism!"
06:15:29 <Bike> not the other way around?
06:16:31 * kmc reads about trace monoids
06:17:07 <Bike> i mean generally if it's a math thing versus something that actually happens i'm going to guess it's the former that's the "model"
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06:21:55 <shachaf> did someone say trace monoids
06:25:02 <kmc> btw both of the mentioned people are great and you should follow them if you do the twitter thing
06:25:25 <shachaf> i don't do the twitter thing but i have a file of people i would follow if i did follow people
06:25:31 <shachaf> so i'll add them to the file
06:25:58 <kmc> v. effective
06:26:19 <shachaf> my file now contains 43 people
06:26:37 <shachaf> way too many to open tabs for each one every day and look at what's new
06:27:03 <shachaf> maybe i can set up an rss client to fetch each of their feeds
06:27:25 <shachaf> kmc: you should teach me about trace monoids
06:27:30 <shachaf> what's this "natural homomorphism" business
06:29:58 <kmc> i don't know about them :(
06:35:35 <kmc> wikipedia does tho
06:38:27 <shachaf> i'm not sure what wikipedia means but maybe i'll read the whole article
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06:51:07 <shachaf> kmc: why is it called "trace"
06:54:29 <kmc> i don't know
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07:33:54 <kmc> OH in my living room: "So I don't think RMS can be snorting mountains of cocaine"
07:34:49 <kmc> what means "koirammekokaan"
07:34:52 <kmc> dog something
07:35:35 <kmc> that's a made up case
07:35:38 <kmc> you just made up that case
07:35:52 <olsner> I did not! someone else did, long ago
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07:42:42 <oerjan> olsner: there are only two google hits for "irthative" and one is Phantom_Hoover on this channel. so yeah.
07:43:14 <oerjan> the other is a seriously misspelled "affirmative".
07:43:43 <oerjan> well i assume that's it, anyhow.
07:44:27 <oerjan> no wait, the first person to use it is you.
07:44:45 <oerjan> olsner: i conclude that you made it up, long ago.
07:45:40 <oerjan> hm wait there's some development into it.
07:45:51 <oerjan> 06:05:06 <Taneb> What's that word that means "is not bad anymore"?
07:45:52 <oerjan> 06:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> irthen bad?
07:45:53 <oerjan> 06:05:06 <Taneb> What's that word that means "is not bad anymore"?
07:45:54 <oerjan> 06:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> irthen bad?
07:48:41 <shachaf> kmc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-mme https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ko https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-kaan hth
07:48:58 <fizzie> Aw, I was just about to decompose it.
07:49:51 <kmc> so... translate plz
07:50:11 <oerjan> i tried to but gt couldn't make sense of the -kaan
07:50:15 <shachaf> yo fizzie, i'mma let you finnish, but wiktionary is one of the best decomposers of all time
07:50:25 <kmc> koiramme = our dog?
07:50:27 <fizzie> It is indeed dog | our | make-into-a-question | even.
07:51:03 <fizzie> It's also kind of awkward-sounding.
07:51:35 <fizzie> But it could be used in a sentence. "Pystyisiköhän koirammekokaan siihen?" "Could even our dog do it?"
07:51:57 <shachaf> fizzie: i should learn finnish :'(
07:52:14 <fizzie> In the sense of "even" meaning that it's very difficult, but maybe the dog could manage it.
07:52:25 <fizzie> (And not the sense that anyone, even a trained monkey could do it.)
07:52:51 <shachaf> Maybe "Could our dog even do it?"?
07:53:01 <fizzie> Maybe. I should learn English.
07:53:16 <kmc> are you planning to go to england
07:53:48 <fizzie> Though somehow "could our dog even do it" sounds to me like it's not necessarily a difficult thing, just that you're a bit sceptical about the dog.
07:53:49 <oerjan> so the thing in the topic means "Don't even our dogs fly?"
07:54:01 <fizzie> Oh, it's in the topic.
07:54:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Single dog. But something like that, yes.
07:54:37 <shachaf> oh, that's where kmc got the word from
07:55:02 <fizzie> oerjan: It's kind of like you have lots of things and none of them are capable of flying, not even the dog.
07:55:03 <shachaf> fizzie: ensin sinä, sitten minä
07:55:12 <oerjan> huh gt thinks koiramme is plural
07:55:14 <shachaf> is that even grammatical finnish
07:55:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Sadly, I think it's both.
07:56:28 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought the pluralization was of us, not of the dog.
07:56:43 <fizzie> oerjan: As in, there's no difference between the singular and plural in that case. But the verb would be inflected differently for plural.
07:57:33 <oerjan> shachaf: google translate
07:57:45 <fizzie> "kaikki koiramme" all our dogs, "paras koiramme" our best dog, yeah, there's no change for the plural when it's first-person-plural-possessive.
07:57:51 <oerjan> shachaf: well gt translates it as "our dogs"
07:58:12 <fizzie> oerjan: It would be "koirammekokaan eivät lennä?" if they had several dogs, none of which flew.
07:58:37 <oerjan> actually it makes it singular if i remove that kokaan
07:58:50 <oerjan> and keeps the rest of the sentence
07:59:13 <shachaf> dekokaanization is a popular activity among finnish grammaticians
07:59:34 <fizzie> "Koirakokaan ei lennä?" seems to be translated more or less correctly.
07:59:34 <oerjan> fizzie: and here i thought finnish had a plural suffix.
08:00:17 <fizzie> oerjan: It has, it just seems to be hidden by the possessive suffix. "koira" dog, "koirat" dogs.
08:00:35 <fizzie> Or possibly "koiria" for a different kind of plural.
08:00:54 <fizzie> "täällä on paljon koiria" there are many dogs, "kaikki nämä koirat" all these dogs.
08:01:23 <fizzie> Er, first one meaning there are many dogs *here*, not just in general.
08:02:10 <fizzie> Also dog seems to be the first example word in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Plurals coincidentally.
08:02:43 <fizzie> And I forgot the second kind of plural, the "kaksi koiraa" two dogs kind of one.
08:04:58 <fizzie> That's kind of missing what it would lift up.
08:05:28 <oerjan> fizzie: doesn't koira have the third form, then?
08:05:29 <shachaf> it's also the wrong use of "even"
08:06:55 <fizzie> oerjan: Which third form was that?
08:07:23 <shachaf> Google mostly finds things like http://verwelktesgedicht.tumblr.com/post/65125049172/english-a-dog-swedish-what-english-the
08:07:29 <shachaf> I think that's pretty unfair.
08:07:41 <oerjan> which has a suspicious lack of koira examples
08:08:36 <oerjan> or wait that was the koiria you mentioned
08:10:05 <oerjan> so why isn't it koiriamme or something >:)
08:10:41 <fizzie> oerjan: It would be if the whole word would be in partitive case.
08:10:57 <fizzie> oerjan: "kukaan ei hoida koiraamme/koiriamme" nobody's taking care of our dog/dogs.
08:11:15 <fizzie> There the singular/plural distinction is maintained.
08:11:44 <oerjan> does this mean the nominative with a possessive suffix never has/usually doesn't have a distinct plural?
08:12:09 <fizzie> I think that might well be true.
08:12:20 <fizzie> "myymme koiramme" we sell our dog/dogs -- right.
08:12:39 <fizzie> If you wanted to emphasize it's plural, I think you'd then just "myymme kaikki koiramme" we sell all our dogs.
08:12:42 <shachaf> imo use a simple language like hebrew
08:12:54 <oerjan> argh you finns and using nominative for objects
08:15:07 <shachaf> hebrew is good because first you encode all the meaning like verb conjugation in the vowels and then you don't write the vowels
08:15:38 <atehwa> The topic proves (once again) that Finnish is an esoteric language.
08:16:36 <shachaf> We need some Norwegian in the topic.
08:16:40 <atehwa> I think the languages that aren't somehow weird form a minority
08:17:04 <atehwa> I used to think Swedish is really straightforward until I heard the complaints of my Japanese teacher
08:17:17 <atehwa> she claimed it's easier to learn Finnish than Swedish.
08:17:46 <shachaf> finnish and japanese are p. similar
08:18:06 <atehwa> oerjan: Finnish has three cases for objects :)
08:18:29 <atehwa> shachaf: that's true, I guess it's the very-high-level structural similarity which aided her.
08:19:03 <HackEgo> atehwa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:19:39 <atehwa> oerjan: and it's complicated more by the fact that possessive suffices (like -mme) often replace the inflective suffix.
08:20:56 <atehwa> shachaf: I'm one of those guys who were active in esolangs community in the 90's.
08:22:13 <shachaf> I didn't speak English in the 1990s so I don't know much about what was going on in that community at the time.
08:22:28 <shachaf> Maybe I should've learned Finnish instead.
08:24:49 <fizzie> atehwa: You ran the sange.fi iteration of the mailing list, unless I misremember?
08:29:01 <shachaf> There ought to be a channel for talking about esolangs.
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09:52:14 <fizzie> max(street-outside-the-office): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131108-otakaari.jpg
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11:47:28 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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12:01:44 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131108-fit.png best fit?
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13:19:23 <fizzie> (Parphrasing from an interview of Miyazaki by the Finnish public broadcasting company:) "I worked part-time for The Moomins for a while. I thought it would be funny to introduce a tank in the series. It was even approved, but then I heard it would be completely contradictory to Tove Jansson's philosophy."
13:19:28 <fizzie> And that's how the world lost the "Moomins in Tanks" concept.
13:19:55 <fizzie> (Source in Finnish: http://yle.fi/uutiset/hayao_miyazaki_jaahyvaishaastattelussa_halusin_muumeihin_tankin/6921093?origin=rss )
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14:40:41 <fizzie> Updated view: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131108-otakaari2.jpg
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14:52:40 <Deewiant> 08.16:47:46 quintopia | fizzie: what time is it
14:55:56 <fizzie> It is almost five pee-em.
14:57:24 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131108-otakaari3.jpg one more for the read
14:57:38 <fizzie> (#2 was made from 500 images, this one from a thousand.)
14:57:48 <fizzie> (I'm going to go a bus now.)
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15:40:54 <mroman> are there any esolangs based on infinite state machines?
15:41:02 <mroman> who behave like finite state machines
15:41:09 <mroman> but can create new states at runtime
15:41:12 <mroman> and transitions at runtime
15:43:06 <mroman> i.e a transtion is capable of creating a new state
15:43:14 <mroman> and add transitions to it
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15:47:07 <Gregor> I have discovered the key to comedy.
15:47:08 <Gregor> http://i.imgur.com/BSFyKv9.gif
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15:59:46 <mroman> on a completely off-topic note
15:59:51 <mroman> there should be an esolang about uml
16:01:06 <mroman> who put a image of a diode (I assume?) to list of ideas?
16:05:34 <mroman> write an os in brainfuck
16:05:38 <mroman> that seems odly trivial to do
16:06:33 <mroman> unless you don't count that I write it in assembly and THEN compile it to brainfuck
16:06:38 <mroman> and then compile it to native code
16:08:23 <Jafet> http://geek-and-poke.com/geekandpoke/2013/7/22/future-proof-your-data-model
16:08:48 <Jafet> Pascal is case-insensitive, how odd.
16:08:58 <Jafet> Also, why am I reading Pascal.
16:09:54 <mroman> probably not alowed in clean-code relational modelling stuff
16:10:51 <Jafet> (I think the esolang you describe already exists, and is called UML.)
16:11:52 <mroman> I currently have lectures about writing software in an UML-Like matter
16:12:02 <mroman> modell driven development :)
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16:12:28 <mroman> Frankly, the *only* benefit I see now is
16:12:39 <mroman> that you automatically have all the UML diagrams :)
16:12:51 <mroman> and don't write code and then draw some UML diagrams :)
16:13:14 <mroman> you have to insert code into the code generated by the codegen
16:13:24 <mroman> because the code gen can't do *everything* for you
16:13:40 <mroman> i.e. it can't generate code on how to actually control the hardware
16:14:10 <mroman> so you have to write that code by hand using those horrible generated struct and types by the codegen
16:14:36 <mroman> also you gotta know how the codegen generates the names :)
16:14:57 <mroman> that and since it's an eclipse plugin
16:15:11 <mroman> I've spent 2 hours configuring that damn plugin so it can target that arduino
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16:16:39 <mroman> http://marketplace.eclipse.org/sites/default/files/as_trade_DomainEditor.png
16:16:43 <mroman> ^- it's pretty awesome
16:17:07 <mroman> and as you can see, it's MUCH MORE readable than code .
16:19:19 <Jafet> That looks like the kind of graph that graphviz-dot makes.
16:19:50 <mroman> I can't find any pictures with CIRO Models
16:20:08 <mroman> It's a modelling standard invented by someone working at my school
16:20:16 <mroman> of course, you don't find anything about it on google
16:20:24 <mroman> so I assume it's not really used in the real world
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16:21:25 <mroman> there are some results for DESC
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16:24:05 <mroman> http://www.s-i.ch/fileadmin/daten/sigmo/DESC_Methode_v11.pdf
16:28:30 <mroman> http://static.squarespace.com/static/518f5d62e4b075248d6a3f90/t/526b7aeae4b0bc40704fad14/1382775549381/good-framework.jpg?format=1500w
16:28:35 <mroman> I'm starting to like that website
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16:36:13 <mroman> the only difference between UML and not-UML is << >> anyway
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16:56:10 <AnotherTest> mroman: speaking of UML diagram generators. Just what I need. I wrote one once but turned out not to be so useful
16:56:59 <AnotherTest> determining the relationships between classes was not that easy it appears
16:57:44 <mroman> I never spoke of such thing :)
16:57:54 <mroman> UML diagram generators are the way to go
16:58:03 <mroman> write code, then generate UML class diagram
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16:58:14 <mroman> then you may do it the other way around ;)
16:58:32 <mroman> AnotherTest: There's a working one for eclipse btw
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16:59:32 <mroman> Then you must be a C++ guy
17:06:27 <mroman> Representational State Transfer (REST) is an architectural style that abstracts the architectural elements within a distributed hypermedia system.[
17:07:15 <mroman> the only thing missing is within an architectural distributed hypermedia system
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17:19:30 <mroman> 20 days and I might know what my bachelor thesis is going to be about
17:19:45 <mroman> I just pray it's not some erm, crm, erp crap
17:22:13 <AnotherTest> aren't you allowed to choose the subject of your thesis?
17:23:11 <mroman> Yes, you can choose your own thesis
17:23:16 <mroman> if someone accepts it :)
17:23:47 <mroman> usually companies can request students to do some stuff
17:24:06 <mroman> they pay 2000$ for the school to anounce their stuff as a bachelor thesis
17:24:15 <mroman> and then you choose one from that pool
17:24:19 <AnotherTest> ugh why doesn't vim come with python support on debian
17:24:58 <mroman> or you can make a request for yourself to do something
17:25:10 <mroman> if you have a good idea that gets accepted
17:25:33 <mroman> that hell no was not directed at your question ;)
17:25:47 <mroman> AnotherTest: That I don't know.
17:25:58 <mroman> something with computers for sure ;)
17:26:39 <mroman> but I can't tell you in which particular field of computer stuff
17:26:48 <mroman> also... this is not a university bachelor.
17:27:56 <mroman> so I'm not sure if it even counts as a bachelor in the US
17:28:21 <mroman> Finland is pretty present here
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17:29:40 <mroman> That's one weird looking language
17:29:57 <mroman> you inflect verbs according to grammatical case?
17:31:57 <fizzie> There's no word so small we wouldn't inflect it.
17:34:52 <fizzie> "You might speak", approximately.
17:35:27 <fizzie> Second-person singular present potential.
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18:39:33 <kmc> does anyone here have a solution for file transfer between a linux box and a galaxy s4 that actually works
18:39:39 <kmc> asking for actual tested solutions and not guesses
18:40:18 <fizzie> Analog modem via microphone/loudspeaker.
18:40:39 <elliott> I like the implication that we've both actually tested these.
18:40:46 <Bike> i have a galaxy s3 but i'd just use dropbox
18:40:52 <Bike> or email it to myself, just to piss everyone off
18:41:00 <Slereah_> Tattooing the data on a courrier's head
18:41:29 <shachaf> kmc: "galaxy s4" is awfully specific
18:41:32 <kmc> Bike: i hate the future
18:41:42 <kmc> shachaf: yes well Samsung seems to use a different MTP stack from other android devices, or something
18:41:45 <Bike> it works, aight
18:43:09 <shachaf> kmc: well with my moto x i can just click the little picture of a blue tooth and it works pretty good
18:43:25 <shachaf> and with my galaxy nexus i can plug it in in the usb port and that works too
18:43:25 <kmc> what software do you use on the linux side
18:43:29 <shachaf> have not tried anything else
18:43:43 <kmc> shachaf: does your galaxy nexus do USB mass storage aka "the terrible thing that actually fucking works"
18:44:18 <shachaf> i don't know what bluetooth software i use just the default usb thing on ubuntu
18:45:05 <fizzie> My Nexus 7 does not do USB mass storage, only MTP; and I've used... oh no, I forgot what I used!
18:45:24 <shachaf> i just click the clicky buttons until something happens
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18:46:11 <fizzie> (Also I've used that MTP thing, like, once. After that it's just been sftp over wifi.)
18:46:34 <shachaf> i might be mixing things up i haven't done it v. much
18:46:58 <fizzie> (I think it was that FUSE mtpfs thing.)
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18:48:42 <kmc> fizzie: which end is the sftp server?
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18:56:23 <kmc> i don't want to run a ssh server on my phone because i'll probably get owned
18:56:33 <kmc> but i want to run rsync commands
18:56:38 <kmc> i guess i could install rsync on the phone somehow
18:56:53 <kmc> or just sign up for fucking dropbox
18:57:00 <kmc> fucking fuckbox
18:57:40 <fizzie> kmc: The Linux end is the SFTP server, in my case.
18:58:35 <mrhmouse> kmc: I use ES File Manager, but there are plenty of solutions for syncing files on Android
18:58:54 <fizzie> I think it was something like ES File Manager that I've used as the client on the Android side; that, and VX ConnectBot's "download file" feature, but it's not terribly user-interfacey.
18:59:23 <mrhmouse> ESFM has a wonderful interface these days.. it used to be difficult.
18:59:35 <mrhmouse> But I'm certain there are lighter apps for syncing over SSH
18:59:58 <elliott> kmc: you could download the file over a local HTTP server on your phone?
19:02:02 <mrhmouse> that's a great solution, unless he wants to do so automatically
19:04:29 <kmc> or unless I want to sync a big tree of files, which I do
19:04:37 <kmc> and delete ones that don't exist on the server, too
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19:05:42 <mrhmouse> do you use a service like Drive? I'm guessing no, since you don't want Dropbox
19:06:46 <kmc> I already know about Dropbox and Google Drive and HTTP and all of these things...
19:06:58 <kmc> i don't need you all to brainstorm shitty solutions for me
19:07:05 <mrhmouse> do you run an Android device or an Apple device?
19:07:31 <kmc> mrhmouse: you didn't even read my original question apparently
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19:08:00 <mrhmouse> I didn't log on until your comment "i don't want to run a ssh server on my phone because i'll probably get owned"
19:08:21 <kmc> I'm gonna stop talking because I don't want to be a jerk to people who are honestly trying to help but fundamentally misunderstand the sort of inquiry I am making
19:10:32 <Jafet> Oh, I have one of those phone things. It can make and receive calls.
19:11:20 <mrhmouse> mine just makes noises and receives odd looks
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21:55:24 <kmc> "In which we put a v8 API on top of spidermonkey without futzing with a separate build system. Prep work for spidernode."
21:55:28 <kmc> sometimes I run into scary things on the internet
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22:05:38 <kmc> huh python has http://docs.python.org/2/library/string.html#template-strings in addition to % and .format()
22:05:56 <kmc> and this metaprogram is possibly using all of them :<
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22:06:31 <Bike> kmc metaprogram he didn't like?
22:06:43 <kmc> we're nearing that point yes
22:07:18 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1nsOKBgmOs
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22:41:06 <Taneb> Oh man, I spent hours today getting people to help me get my laptop working
22:41:10 <Taneb> And now my desktop's playing up
22:43:15 <Taneb> Also, I think having someone on your gamejam team who is doing a PhD in video game artificial intelligence is pretty handy
22:44:12 <kmc> depends what kind of PhD
22:44:38 <Bike> little does taneb know that it's a phd in deliberately shitty AI
22:45:11 <Taneb> Bike, it's on Monte Carlo search trees with hidden information, I think
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22:52:07 <kmc> "But USB devices were used to ferry malware cross a far greater air-gap: Russian astronauts had carried a virus on removable media to the International Space Station infecting machines there, Kaspersky said."
22:52:43 <Bike> more like lack of air gap (by which i mean: are you fucking serious)
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23:07:31 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yeah probably
23:07:34 <Taneb> How is the fortress
23:08:48 <Taneb> Oh, that reminds me
23:09:14 <Phantom_Hoover> does it remind you of something else i should feel guilty about
23:09:45 <kmc> bill gates has his own URL shortener
23:09:50 <kmc> that is so money
23:10:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no, it's something I should feel guilty about
23:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, looks like it's just an alias for bitly (or whatever the proper term is)
23:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> having novelty urls isn't all that money (were you not around for libc.soquest)
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23:14:08 <Bike> aren't two-letter tlds reserved
23:14:18 <Bike> for like, ocular sudan.
23:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (gregor wanted to buy it, it failed because someone was more money than him (gregor was very money at the time, though))
23:15:21 <Bike> isn't a tld like ten thousand fucks
23:15:45 <fizzie> Bike: Not the .so TLD, just the libc.so domain.
23:16:15 <fizzie> (This was when .so (Somalia) was having some sort of a thing.)
23:16:26 <Bike> oh, it's somalia. durr
23:16:29 <fizzie> Involving possibly auctions or whatnot.
23:16:50 <fizzie> (I guess it's possible Gregor wanted to buy Somalia too? The domains probably come with it.)
23:17:01 <Bike> i know a guy who lives in somaliland, i don't think it has its own tld though
23:17:10 <Bike> they just use .dj like punks i imagine
23:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i suppose he could've paid a band of mercenaries to take over the part of the country that hands out domains, at least
23:18:18 <kmc> why was gregor so money
23:18:21 <kmc> and not now?
23:18:30 <Bike> because his dad's a fucking idiot (according to him)
23:18:57 <kmc> isn't a tld like ten thousand fucks <-- depends how much you make from one fuck I guess
23:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> oh is gregor less money now? i was just referring to his general attitude at the time
23:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't remember the amounts but there was some heated discussion over why you would spend that much on a novelty domain
23:20:02 <augur_> whats a good suggestion for a simple-to-parse but relatively interesting proglang
23:20:12 <fizzie> There's not even any website at libc.so which makes the whole thing quite smurfy. (It's registered by a Marcel Meyer from levelsystems.de.)
23:20:25 <elliott> the amount was $1k or something
23:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> actually... i guess eodermdrome's got pretty basic syntax
23:21:41 <Taneb> augur_, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
23:21:46 <Taneb> Easy to parse and easy to read!
23:24:42 <kmc> augur_: scheme
23:24:45 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: In sum total I had $1,500 for it.
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23:25:16 <kmc> esp. if you do what everyone does and pick a restricted subset of scheme that proves whatever point you want to make
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23:38:03 <augur_> kmc: scheme is easy to parse, but not rich enough
23:38:46 <augur_> it basically has two syntactic constructs: <thing>, and (<thing>*)
23:40:04 <Bike> well you asked for simple to parse.
23:40:17 <Bike> not simple-to-parse-but-not-THAT-simple.
23:41:16 <augur_> "but relatively interesting proglang"
23:41:28 <Bike> "interesting" includes semantics.
23:46:09 <Koen_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poppycock "This article is a stub, which means that it is not detailed enough and needs to be expanded. Please help us by adding some more information. Poppycock is a simple to parse, but not simple to parse but not THAT simple, but relatively interesting proglang."
23:56:41 <kmc> yeah I didn't understand you meant "simple-to-parse but interesting syntax"
23:56:47 <kmc> because syntax is boring ;P
23:56:55 <kmc> (not really but kinda)
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00:00:43 <Koen_> does "removing the syntax from a language" mean projection it into its computational class?
00:01:12 <Koen_> because only the semantics are left
00:01:40 <quintopia> projection into its paradigm i think
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00:02:01 <Bike> projection onto some shit i just made up
00:07:14 <kmc> poppycock syntax consists of two elements: poppies and cocks
00:07:31 <Bike> ah, so it's like daisyworld but with sexual reproduction
00:11:29 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: well, I've always thought a "programming language" is just a set of "programs", and a program is just a couple (text, meaning) where 'text' is what you would write in the program file and 'meaning' is what it does (ie a function input -> output). now if you remove the syntax, that means you remove the 'text' component of programs; so the C program int main() {write(1, "Hello World!"", 12); return(0);} and the brainfuck p
00:11:29 <Koen_> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. become equivalent
00:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Koen_, well the thing is that equivalence of programs is at least as hard as the halting problem
00:12:28 <Bike> where's the return 0 in bf
00:12:35 <Bike> feeling ripped off here
00:13:11 <Phantom_Hoover> also what Bike said (IO is a complete nightmare to formalise)
00:13:32 <Koen_> Bike: yeah I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that :(
00:14:06 <Bike> not even that. you could say that the "output" of the function described by BF is like, the value in the zeroth cell, but then you just declared a whole shitload of programs equivalent
00:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> like ais' proof that wolfram's turing machine is TC ran into some controversy because of the particulars of the IO
00:14:21 <Bike> or you could combine all the cells in whatever way, but then what about other ways
00:16:07 <Koen_> Bike: yeah that's something I'm always frustrated about when people write a proof that a language is TC and then someone else uses reduction from that language to prove a second language tc
00:16:24 <Koen_> "did the reduction and the initial proof used the same convention for IO?"
00:16:45 <Bike> why would that matter
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00:24:03 <augur_> Phantom_Hoover: youre horrible
00:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> augur_, well the actual parser wouldn't be that hard, i think!
00:25:27 <augur_> perhaps i should say, it should be a one-dimensional language :P
00:25:44 <Bike> all these crazy requirements!
00:26:12 <Bike> is scheme one dimensional
00:26:13 <augur_> Phantom_Hoover: like a normal language :P
00:26:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean eodermdrome's graph representation is a 'one-dimensional' string if that's what you're complaining about
00:26:53 <augur_> because newlines dont matter
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00:27:07 <Bike> so python is multidimensional.
00:27:17 <augur_> yes, python is crucially >1d
00:27:18 <Bike> how many dimensions does python have
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00:27:38 <augur_> off to find out, i suppose
00:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you could replace them with semicolons or whatever in the eodermdrome spec and it'd fit your apparent requirements
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00:33:42 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | Magnus! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:33:52 <oerjan> shachaf: istr you wanted some norwegian in the topic.
00:34:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Is Tåsen some kind of a place? (It was in one of those videos.)
00:35:10 <oerjan> fizzie: i think it's possibly a suburb of Oslo?
00:35:43 <fizzie> Okay. But not a particularly special one?
00:35:55 <oerjan> more like neighborhood, it seems.
00:36:28 <oerjan> fizzie: well i cannot think of anything particularly special about it :P
00:36:47 <oerjan> but then i'm not too well acquainted with oslo.
00:38:26 <oerjan> the wikipedia article looks boring.
00:38:55 <oerjan> even the norwegian one.
00:39:02 * oerjan checks the turkish version
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00:39:59 <oerjan> i'm sure it contains shocking news if i only could read it. oh wait, google..
00:44:06 <oerjan> curiously, the turkish version mentions some WWII stuff the others don't.
00:44:23 <oerjan> (not _extremely_ shocking)
00:45:37 <shachaf> The nearest Norwegian speaker departed seconds ago.
00:45:51 <oerjan> I AM STILL HERE YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD
00:46:02 <oerjan> wait, did you kill him
00:47:31 <oerjan> google translate seems to be somewhat buggy with https. or maybe it's the turkish wikipedia.
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00:50:19 <oerjan> hm seems you do, i just got to the point in the logs.
00:51:44 * oerjan overloads his cheese quota on that youtube link.
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01:30:09 <oerjan> "After all, the great advantage of BosonSampling is that, unlike with (say) factoring or quantum simulation, we don’t actually care which problem we’re solving!"
01:30:25 <oerjan> (new shtetl-optimized post)
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01:37:47 <zzo38> If there some MUD game that has a flag you can enable which makes it so that any other players can attack you as if you are a NPC, and kill you, earn all of your stuff and experience points and whatever (it is only one-way; to kill other players they have to set a flag too)?
01:39:02 <Bike> you accidentally the question.
01:41:39 <zzo38> oerjan: What does that mean?
01:42:53 <zzo38> "After all, the great advantage of BosonSampling is that...
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01:45:43 <oerjan> zzo38: that they're just trying to make a physical experiment that has a proof that it's (probably, assuming generally believed computational complexity conjectures) hard to simulate with a classical computer, and don't really care what if anything it computes.
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02:07:30 <Jafet> BosonSampling sounds like a hi-fi audio product
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02:13:01 <oerjan> Jafet: different boses
02:13:06 <oerjan> "Boses belong to the Kayastha clan, a sub-caste of Kshatriyas (warriors/rulers) that originated from Kannauj, the capital of India during much of the classical period, and emerged in eastern India during the 11th century AD."
02:21:37 <oerjan> you know you regret reading a comment field when the commentors fail to distinguish cold and hot fushion.
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02:45:15 <kmc> how amazing that the android ssh server app keeps the server running after I tell it to shut down, and also is shit and doesn't work
02:45:27 <kmc> who could possibly have predicted this outcome oh wait it was me
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02:57:48 <shachaf> COMBINING SINGLE TEAR BELOW
02:58:04 <shachaf> unicode needs modular smileys
03:02:39 <oerjan> i distinctly see that as above
03:03:22 <oerjan> also in the logs, although there it's above a different character.
03:04:35 <Bike> "It is well known that no model of computation characterizes exactly the set of total functions" can someone give this dummy (me) a reference better than "it's well known"
03:05:56 <Bike> oh i guess that works oops
03:07:06 <Bike> well, no. rice's theorem means there's no procedure for picking out, say, primitive recursive functions, either, but that's still a model
03:18:17 <oerjan> it might depend on what is meant by "model of computation"
03:19:12 <Bike> something i can fuck around with, preferably
03:19:34 <oerjan> i meant in the quote, thank you
03:19:44 <Bike> well it has no context.
03:19:49 <Bike> i mean obviously you can describe the set of total functions, but you can describe the primitive recursive functions, uh, "better"
03:21:06 <Bike> oh, actually in context it gives primitive recursive functions and arithmetic functions as "models of computation"
03:22:23 <oerjan> well if we assume that you have (1) a string representation of "computations" (2) a total computable function for determining whether a string represents a computation (3) an interpreter for computation strings (on a TM or in whatever normal TC language)
03:22:41 <oerjan> then you might call that a model.
03:23:16 <oerjan> i guess (1) is a trivial point
03:23:22 <Bike> is that an "and" or an "or" there
03:24:18 <Bike> so you need a computable grammar, is what you're saying
03:24:55 <oerjan> yes. otherwise you could just define the grammar to be all the strings that happen to be total as functions. :D
03:25:15 <Bike> well that makes some sense, thank
03:25:41 <oerjan> i'm still not sure that your quote is actually true for this definition though
03:26:12 <Bike> what would a definition it's well-known-to-be-true for be, then
03:26:42 <oerjan> the missing point is a way to map total functions in some other representation into the model.
03:27:38 <oerjan> hm actually even then it might not be obvious, because it could do anything on non-total functions
03:28:24 <oerjan> no wait. that works, you could solve the halting problem if you could do that, i think.
03:28:58 <Bike> If you had a computable grammar for the total functions plus a map from turing machines to strings satisfying the grammar?
03:30:11 <oerjan> yes. although it doesn't need to do anything sensible if the turing machine doesn't represent a total function.
03:31:31 <Bike> how would you solve the halting problem with that? i mean there are perfectly good functions that are only defined on total functions, like evaluation
03:32:06 <Bike> oh. i'm not enough of a mathematician to do things in my head and then just imply them.
03:33:08 <oerjan> the thing here, is that this definition implies nothing about being able to compose these computations in any way (except by passing back via a TM)
03:33:31 <Bike> yeah, that would be nice.
03:33:39 <kmc> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/6799351990_a716c10ae8_z.jpg
03:33:44 <Bike> maybe throwing "also this is closed under composition" in there is too ugly
03:34:06 <oerjan> well i don't mean just (.) composition, since that's still total.
03:34:28 <Bike> there are other kinds of composition?
03:35:04 <oerjan> general structured programming
03:35:52 <oerjan> however... what this does give you is a map from TMs to total functions which preserves the semantics of total functions.
03:35:52 <Bike> hm i vaguely remember that being able to take variable powers of functions did... something
03:36:03 <^v> kmc, programming on macs is impossible
03:36:05 <Bike> maybe just threw you up the gregzowieskbhch hierarchy
03:36:18 <^v> especialy with someone with add like me ;_;
03:36:21 <Bike> ^v: what's the joke
03:36:32 <oerjan> Bike: well primitive recursion is something like that
03:38:56 <oerjan> oh wait, found a proof.
03:40:34 <oerjan> to solve the halting problem: given a TM computation, make a new computation which calculates how many steps it takes. translate this. run the translation (which is total.) run the original TM for the number of steps returned.
03:41:14 <Bike> How many steps it takes to halt?
03:41:56 <oerjan> if it doesn't halt, the translation will return some nonsense, but in either case the final check will reveal this.
03:43:37 <Bike> does that actually solve the halting problem, though? i mean there's no guarantee the "make a new computation" step is effectively computable is there
03:44:10 <oerjan> yes there is, these are TM computations so just "normal" program embedding.
03:44:59 <Bike> like, the new computation runs the TM for one step, reports back if it halts, runs another step, etc.?
03:45:00 <oerjan> it's really just "add a step counter to the program"
03:45:30 <Bike> that's not total is it
03:45:32 <oerjan> yes, and it reports the number of steps taken in total.
03:45:44 <Bike> so how do you translate it
03:45:51 <oerjan> but the translation turns everything into something total.
03:46:14 <oerjan> because the other computation model has only total functions.
03:46:41 <oerjan> it just gives unrelated nonsense if the original wasn't total.
03:47:11 <oerjan> that's the assumption of how the translation works.
03:48:21 <Bike> OK, wait, so let me lay this out. We have (a) the model of general computation, which is turing machines or whatever. (b) our total model, which is a language with a total "is the input in this language" function, and a total "run the input" function. (c) a partial computable function from (a) to (b) defined for all total (a). Right? Did I miss something?
03:48:34 <Bike> from (a) to sentences of (b), or whatever
03:49:27 <oerjan> yeah. (c) should always halt itself, even if given something non-total, though.
03:50:20 <Bike> OK, I think I get how your proof works, thanks for letting me indulge myself in description i guess
03:52:01 <Bike> hm, can you use this to construct a rice violator for different types of b
03:53:30 * oerjan is briefly pondering if (c) _really_ needs to always halt, given that it's functions it's translating, not single computations
03:54:18 <Bike> i think requiring (c) to be total lets you violate rice's theorem. you do like you did except say "given a TM computation, make a new partial function which returns true when the TM fulfills [some ricey condition]"
03:54:19 <oerjan> because the functions have infinite domain, so (c) can't simply test all inputs before returning.
03:54:33 <Bike> or... something
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03:55:10 <oerjan> Bike: well i thought most of that stuff is trivial once you can solve that halting problem
03:55:19 <Bike> maybe for "models" it would be more natural to reverse c, though...
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03:57:09 <Bike> like there's obviously a total, computable map from sentences describing partial recursive functions or [total functional language du jour] to turing machines and you don't care about the other direction /that/ much
03:57:21 <Bike> or maybe you do. i'm tired
03:58:12 <oerjan> well if you had no map the other way your language could be as total as you wanted but you'd never be able to translate any _given_ total function to it...
03:59:10 <Bike> that kind of seems okay to me? when i define a program i can use some non-TM-at-all model, like arithmetic or something
03:59:11 <oerjan> you would know each string computes a total function but you might have no idea of which one
04:01:08 <shachaf> are you still trying to figure out the original quote
04:01:26 <Bike> right now i'm wondering how i would prove the program i work on at work is total
04:01:48 <oerjan> translate it to agda duh
04:02:44 <Bike> i think it is actually
04:03:22 <shachaf> well the halting problem has been solved for Bike already
04:04:26 <Bike> think you only need "loop [easy term] number of times" and "return first element in finite list that equals [easy term]" where easy terms are just parameters and floating point arithmetic on them
04:05:25 <shachaf> floating point arithmetic /!\
04:05:49 <Bike> i'm not exactly working on a compiler aight
04:09:30 <oerjan> loop NAN number of times
04:09:57 <Bike> throw modular arithmetic in there if you must >:
04:10:17 <oerjan> loop NAN `mod` 0 number of times
04:10:41 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `mod' (imported from GHC.Real)
04:10:56 <oerjan> i'm sure it's somehwere
04:11:07 <Bike> how about modular arithmetic only and we just do floating point on top of that, jerk
04:13:04 <lambdabot> [-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Inf...
04:13:30 <Lymia> > [-1/0, -1/0 .. 0/0]
04:13:50 <Lymia> > [-1/0, 0/0 .. 1/0]
04:17:01 <shachaf> you know that writing style where you have lots of text and you bold lots of sentences in it
04:17:52 <Bike> like bad comics?
04:19:17 <shachaf> no, that's a separate thing
04:19:40 <shachaf> what does all that bolding in those comics even mean
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05:06:03 <zzo38> I managed to send a message to a channel in ifMUD while not connected. As far as I know, this wasn't intended to be possible.
05:09:23 <kmc> how did you do it?
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05:31:00 <zzo38> kmc: If you know ifMUD, try to figure it out... (I made up a channel specifically for testing this so as not to annoy people)
05:33:14 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't know ifMUD.
05:33:47 <zzo38> shachaf: I didn't expect you to.
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05:39:10 <zzo38> The plug for my clock keeps falling off!
05:39:47 <oerjan> it's time for a new clock
05:40:07 <zzo38> No, it isn't the clock that is defective; it is the position of the bed.
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05:41:19 <zzo38> Yes, it is also the position of the socket.
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05:42:42 <shachaf> Oh, wait, "clock" doesn't mean "watch".
05:42:48 <shachaf> I was sure zzo38 meant a watch.
05:43:22 <zzo38> In this case it is not a watch; it is a digital alarm clock.
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05:58:11 <shachaf> it' sbeen years since i confused clock and watch wow
05:58:55 <shachaf> what is a gender-neutral phrase that has similar connotations to "whoa, dude"
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06:15:31 <Bike> 'holy fucking shit'
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06:36:23 <kmc> shachaf: after more than a year those people finally changed the description of their users from "craftsmen" to "software engineers"
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06:37:36 <kmc> I assume this was a long painful process that involved buying a suit and burning a pile of thinkgeek shirts in a big bonfire
06:38:02 <kmc> http://javascriptmvc.com/
06:38:23 <shachaf> it's not a celebrating software engineership thing
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06:40:57 <zzo38> I made up a "Critical Vulnerability" flaw for Dungeons&Dragons game: Any damage you take from critical hits that is multiplied due to the critical hit is doubled again (so x5 becomes x10 and so on). If someone try to hit you with a damaging attack and roll a natural 1, you take 1 point of damage anyways.
06:41:57 <shachaf> zzo38: Are those two separate clauses of the flaw?
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06:42:59 <zzo38> shachaf: They are two separate sentences; I don't know if you would consider them two separate "clauses" or not, or if that is important.
06:45:40 <shachaf> The first one is bad and the second one is good?
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06:50:56 <oerjan> i think they're both bad, if someone hits a 1 they usually miss entirely or worse?
06:52:32 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is correct; they usually miss entirely (or sometimes hit themself).
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07:01:10 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/giant-burrito-to-solve-all-of-area-mans-problems-f,34479/
07:05:08 <shachaf> kmc: what about beer/bonghits
07:05:25 <kmc> I think that's qdoba
07:05:42 <kmc> oh it says that in the first sentence :(
07:05:54 <kmc> my burrito detective skills are not needed here :(
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07:08:11 <shachaf> have you been to costena.com yet
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07:18:07 <kmc> will they sell me the World's Largest Burrito
07:18:49 <shachaf> i think someone else got the record now anyway
07:19:15 <kmc> are the normal size burritos good
07:19:16 <shachaf> but they have good burritos
07:19:39 <kmc> that's kind of far from everything
07:20:49 <shachaf> well, it's kind of near google
07:21:02 <kmc> that's not a real place for me
07:21:03 <shachaf> and i think it's near evan's house?
07:21:11 <kmc> i don't actually know where evan lives
07:21:24 <kmc> yes but in a car
07:21:37 <kmc> so it might as well have been a teleporter
07:21:49 <kmc> I actually walked from his house to Caltrain once but it was before I had any kind of map of the area
07:21:51 <oerjan> since -ito is a diminutive suffix, the world's largest burrito should be a burro.
07:22:15 <shachaf> oh, they will sell "Burrito Gigante: The 4-foot long burrito"
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07:22:22 <shachaf> "Big enough for 12-16 people for only $60.00!"
07:22:36 <kmc> oerjan: there's a taquería chain around here named El Faro, and another named El Farolito
07:22:45 <kmc> the founder of the latter is the son of the founder of the former, or something
07:23:57 <shachaf> also it's moving according to the website
07:24:00 <shachaf> i wonder where they'll move
07:24:15 <kmc> google won't translate "taquería" into icelandic :/
07:28:06 <oerjan> well icelandic wikipedia doesn't even have a taco article
07:28:09 <oerjan> http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortilla
07:30:06 <shachaf> there are also burritos at google but they do not compare
07:31:01 <shachaf> i heard that in arizona they call them "burros" can you confirm
07:32:12 <kmc> no but I can go on a fact finding mission
07:32:16 <kmc> i'll need an advance and a per diem
07:32:47 <kmc> tortilla þýðir „lítil kaka“ á spænsku
07:33:16 <kmc> today i wondered how hard it is to make tortillas at home
07:35:28 <kmc> shachaf: also the print version of The Onion is ceasing publication :(
07:36:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rwlcome: not found
07:36:18 <HackEgo> tertu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:37:29 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome "$@" | sed 's/aeiou//'" > bin/wlcm; chmod +x bin/wlcm
07:37:31 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:38:05 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome "$@" | sed '\'s/aeiou//\'' > bin/wlcm; chmod +x bin/wlcm
07:38:07 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:38:14 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome "$@" | sed '\'s/aeiou//\' > bin/wlcm; chmod +x bin/wlcm
07:38:22 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:38:42 <shachaf> wow i'm so bad at this :'(
07:39:22 <shachaf> what is it missing other than g
07:40:16 <shachaf> i switched from tr to sed and did it completely badly
07:40:32 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome "$@" | sed '\'s/[aeiou]//ig\' > bin/wlcm; chmod +x bin/wlcm
07:40:37 <HackEgo> shchf: Wlcm t th ntrntnl hb fr strc prgrmmng lngg dsgn nd dplymnt! Fr mr nfrmtn, chck t r wk: <http://slngs.rg/wk/Mn_Pg>. (Fr th thr knd f strc, try #strc n rc.dl.nt.)
07:43:31 <HackEgo> cat: bin/eoe: No such file or directory
07:43:47 <shachaf> my method was so low tech oerjan doesn't even suspect
07:46:32 <oerjan> except it seems almost impossible to verify if my guess is correct.
07:46:43 <fizzie> "tr -d would've been simpler" hth
07:47:02 <shachaf> oerjan: guess? just look at the logs
07:47:18 <shachaf> fizzie: yes but i remembered something about tr being bad at unicode or something
07:47:31 <oerjan> shachaf: um my browser has a disturbing tendency to ignore control characters.
07:47:46 <shachaf> oerjan: curl http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2013-11-09-raw.txt | xxd | less
07:47:53 <fizzie> That would've been an issue only if you wanted to delete a non-ASCII character.
07:48:08 <shachaf> fizzie: what about when we convert everything to utf-16
07:48:31 <fizzie> Oh no, are we converting everything to UTF-16? :(
07:50:23 <oerjan> well i guessed correctly.
08:04:59 <zzo38> Do you like "Where is my keys" soup?
08:06:07 <zzo38> It is OK if tr is bad at Unicode; that is why UTF-8 is design the way it is, that you can delete non-ASCII characters in a search/replace even if the program is otherwise ASCII only.
08:06:11 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
08:06:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Why did you bring it up?
08:07:41 <zzo38> One of the levels in a computer game I play today is titled: "Where is my keys" soup
08:07:43 <kmc> zzo38: you can't really delete specific UTF-8 characters with tr, can you?
08:08:05 <zzo38> kmc: Probably not with tr, but with other programs such as sed you probably can, even if it is the ASCII version of sed.
08:08:24 <shachaf> The ASCII version of sed operates on seven-bit characters.
08:10:06 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, but just one extended to 8-bits is good enough then; you don't need Unicode or anything; it works on any 8-bit character set which is compatible with ASCII, and UTF-8 has the properties needed for it to work (Shift-JIS doesn't).
08:10:25 <zzo38> Therefore the same program can be used for UTF-8, CP437, and other character encodings.
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08:21:12 <fizzie> For some values of "works"; you can replace single characters with the s/// command, but e.g. '.' won't necessarily match a single character, and the y/// command is not going to work any better.
08:21:47 <kmc> all we need is character classes for "UTF-8 start byte" and "UTF-8 continuation byte"
08:22:01 <kmc> quick somebody write a UTF-8 to UTF-16 decoder in sed
08:22:04 <kmc> using Lies And Trickery
08:22:31 <kmc> re-coder? whatever
08:22:47 <zzo38> kmc: Best is if you are allowed to design your own character classes; it would be useful for other things too
08:40:08 <elliott> kmc: transcoder is the term?
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08:49:14 <zzo38> Well, I did recently write one in C, that does a lot of other things too, not only UTF-8 and UTF-16, but also CESU-8, VLQ, LEB128, Modified UTF-8, linebreak conversion, byteswap, and some other things. Most of these are just an emergent property of the features of the program, though.
08:49:39 <zzo38> (It doesn't actually have support for CESU-8 built-in but using a pipe you can easily convert to/from CESU-8)
08:53:56 <kmc> CESU-8, VLQ, LEB128, UVB-76, MDZhB
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08:54:19 <kmc> obviosuly it should be abbreviated ΜTF-8
08:54:24 <zzo38> shachaf: Using overlong encoding for zero
08:54:45 <zzo38> (Mainly for compatibility with C programs, and no I did not invent that.)
08:55:18 <shachaf> Are you going to finish Potion of Confusing?
08:55:42 <shachaf> You should make a sequel called Potion of Doesn't Make Sense.
08:56:33 <zzo38> OK, well, it is all public domain you can do what you want with it.
08:56:55 <zzo38> (The runtime engine is GPL, but the world file is public domain.)
08:57:36 <zzo38> kmc: What is UVB-76, MDZhB?
08:57:58 <kmc> numbers stations
08:58:27 <kmc> zzo38: and what of copyright jurisdictions where works can't be voluntarily placed into the public domain?
08:58:41 <zzo38> kmc: There is CC0 and stuff like that.
08:59:40 <shachaf> kmc: Time to apply some http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/negative+thinking !
09:00:02 <kmc> head explode
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09:03:50 <zzo38> shachaf: I will make the additional levels of Potion of Confusing as I have the time and can think of what levels to make! I do not have an intention to make a sequel, but if you like this kind of game you can try, of course.
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12:55:57 <mroman> has anyone of you guys experience with gtk?
12:57:39 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bj
12:57:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 41.7
12:58:41 <ais523> the scoring system is not so kind to it
12:58:48 <ais523> it gets lots of close wins
12:59:42 <ais523> I'd like to get that thing to top the hill
12:59:47 <ais523> perhaps it needs oodles of tweaking
12:59:57 <fizzie> Somehow I don't think you get points for "almost winning" in actual jousting either.
13:00:01 <ais523> (although it's not going to beat space_hotel no matter what I do, with its current strategy)
13:00:06 <ais523> fizzie: no, it wins almost every matchup
13:00:11 <ais523> just only by a small margin
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13:00:31 <ais523> it's only losing three atm
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13:28:50 <quintopia> ais523: the word you want is 'barely'
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13:43:35 <augur_> instead of using a rich language, i experimented with a very simple language -- the language of balanced parens -- and got an interesting result
13:47:43 <fizzie> Does it count as "simple" if it's not even regular?
13:48:39 <augur_> for my purposes it does!
13:48:50 <augur_> infact, CF+ is probably exactly ideal
13:48:56 <augur_> regular languages are _too_ simple!
13:49:12 <ais523> fizzie: well it's pretty much the simplest PDA around
13:58:55 <mroman> glib seriously has a threading library
13:59:53 <augur_> its wonderful how a few months worth of ideas can crumble in a few minutes of computational experimenting :)
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14:40:20 <olsner> mroman: https://developer.gnome.org/glib/unstable/glib-Threads.html lists at least 6 synchronization thingies you can use?
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15:08:06 <augur_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sihyVOULtA8
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16:22:31 <fungot> Jafet: ummmm....... mmmm......
16:23:13 <fungot> Jafet: and tusho, or is this supposed to impress?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord,
16:23:17 <HackEgo> fungot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:24:21 <Jafet> HackEgo could teach fungot a thing or two about writing URLs.
16:24:22 <fungot> Jafet: china is cool! wow! what a dull boy
16:25:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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17:17:39 <fizzie> Jafet: I could teach fungot a thing or two about that too, but I somehow never seem to manage to.
17:17:40 <fungot> fizzie: what language is str? i get conflicting opinions about threads and multi-threading as a programming paradigm. how does one cause a function to something, though
17:18:12 <fizzie> These are deep philosophical waters. How *does* one cause a function to something, indeed.
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17:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> wow, the notation f : X → Y for functions apparently only came into use in the forties: http://mathoverflow.net/a/59478
17:32:57 <Taneb> So, it's younger than lambda calculus?
17:33:49 <Slereahphone> Phantom_Hoover: http://jeff560.tripod.com/mathsym.html
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17:59:33 <ahvqae78q9rfgphy> Do usa&israel use chat&social communication prog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
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18:18:06 <ais523> I wonder why it chose this channel to spam?
18:18:24 <fizzie> Because it's the best channel.
18:18:34 <myname> who uses facebook anyway
18:20:15 <zzo38> Just because they got k-lined doesn't necessarily mean we are not going to be watched.
18:20:42 <myname> you no what? watch THIS
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19:08:18 <zzo38> What does 'confess' do in Perl?
19:11:40 <int-e> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7617852/whats-the-difference-between-carp-croak-cluck-confess-and-verbose-options
19:12:25 <ais523\unfoog> zzo38: error with stacktrace, IIRC; it's not part of the language itself but of a commonly used library
19:26:36 <mroman> oh no. I'm watched. I'm so shocked right now.
19:26:50 <mroman> also I might be maywatched
19:26:55 <mroman> that's probably a typo for baywatched.
19:42:00 <zzo38> ais523: ifMUD seems to call confess when SIGUSR2 is received.
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20:17:55 <fizzie> Sounds like a debugging aid.
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22:06:19 <ais523\unfoog> I submitted a BF Joust program I spent a couple of days working on
22:06:31 <ais523\unfoog> it doesn't do too well in HackEgo's scoring system, though
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22:08:25 <quintopia> also if it doesnt do good in this system because it doesnt crushingly defeat enough programs, it would do even more poorly in the fixed-point system
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22:18:09 <quintopia> i want to modify space_hotel to be able to beat 73ef6r7dye6_david
22:19:21 <ais523\unfoog> quintopia: I think it beats omnipotence in fixed-point
22:20:06 <ais523\unfoog> omnipotence scores 801 (wins - losses against all programs on all tape lengths); preparation scores 911
22:20:15 <quintopia> do you have a fixed point scorer to test on?
22:21:16 <ais523\unfoog> but the main codepaths are, on tapes 17 and shorter, it detects the opponent's rule of 9 and aims straight for their flag
22:21:26 <ais523\unfoog> on 18 and longer, it tries to lock them on the ninth cell and then use the time to set up decoys
22:21:33 <ais523\unfoog> and yes, there are plenty of comments in the program itself
22:22:15 <ais523\unfoog> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays <
22:22:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_unfoog_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 0.0
22:22:24 <quintopia> so it's one of those that's like "wait for the opponent to do their decoy build so you can tell where their flag is"?
22:22:26 <ais523\unfoog> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
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22:22:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_unfoog_this_sort_of_thing: 21.2
22:22:32 <ais523\unfoog> let me rename that, it keeps breaking the table layout
22:22:39 <Taneb> So, if I made something that set up defence for one less than I could safely, it would beat that on some tapes?
22:22:46 -!- ais523\unfoog has changed nick to ais523.
22:22:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_unfoog_this_sort_of_thing: 0.0
22:22:52 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays <
22:22:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 0.0
22:22:56 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
22:22:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing: 22.2
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22:23:24 <quintopia> brb mosh is outputting some crazy random ass characters
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22:33:03 <Bike> backtick relcome apott
22:33:04 <HackEgo> APott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:33:44 <Taneb> So, what brings you to the channel?
22:34:05 <APott> I came across this wiki and find some of these languages extremely interesting and thought I would talk to a few people
22:34:35 <myname> i heard we have a software project next semester where we have to write a compiler for rail
22:34:40 <myname> i am looking forward to it
22:34:50 <Taneb> APott, well, we're off-topic pretty much all the time, I'm afraid
22:35:12 <Taneb> Bike, no, a machine that you can in front of the the train to put down tracks
22:35:13 <APott> lol it's fine I'm used to off topic
22:35:14 <zzo38> You can be both ontopic and offtopic.
22:35:21 <Bike> oh, those things are cool
22:35:30 <zzo38> If you have any ontopic things to write, do it.
22:35:38 <Taneb> APott, what're your favourite esolangs, then?
22:35:48 <APott> I've written front ends and interpreters for languages but still haven't figured out how to compile anything
22:35:56 <APott> oh well I'im quite new to esolangs
22:36:10 <Bike> try a brainfuck compiler. super easy.
22:36:13 <zzo38> APott: Which ones did you do?
22:36:16 <APott> The first one I've used was Brainfuck which I actually wrote an interpreter for, it's a bit buggy though
22:36:45 <APott> I've never written a compiler, just interpreters. I wrote it in D since it's my favorite
22:36:52 <zzo38> What do you want the compilers to target anyways?
22:37:38 <APott> My goal is to eventually develop a native compiler but that's extremely far off I imagine
22:38:15 <zzo38> (If you are going to target Z-machine, try the Frolg macroassembler. Other things to possibly target include LLVM, C, Haskell (in fact a function can be constructed at runtime), 6502 (although there are different computers using it, such as C64 and Famicom), etc)
22:38:33 <APott> If I wanted to I could write a translator to a language probably, jsut haven't invested the time.
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22:38:47 <APott> hmm I will have to look into those
22:39:05 <APott> I have looked into LLVM but since I prefer D it's a bit difficult to get LLVM working
22:39:08 <myname> APott: a compiler is a translator
22:39:31 <APott> But a translator translates a high level language to another high level language
22:39:41 <APott> Compilers mainly go down a level
22:39:59 <Bike> 'levels' are ill defined. what now
22:40:11 <APott> alright, you got me. :D
22:40:23 <Slereah> But technically assembly language is just another language :o
22:40:26 <ais523\unfoog> levels are ill-defined, but it's still possible to compare them sometimes
22:40:41 <Slereah> Also there are processors of high level languages
22:40:52 <Slereah> So the difference between the two is more of a convention
22:40:56 <APott> Yeah but assembly is just characters in place of instructions
22:41:12 <ais523\unfoog> assembly often produces object files rather than executables
22:41:46 <pikhq> And assemblers often have macro languages and such.
22:42:09 <zzo38> Some assemblers don't have macros, although the ones I make/modify do.
22:42:29 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_processor
22:42:46 <myname> Slereah: a professor of mine won one once
22:42:55 <myname> he had no use so he wanted to give it away
22:43:12 <pikhq> Also, even machine code is a bit abstract from CPU architecture anymore.
22:43:26 <APott> Depends what you mean by machine code
22:43:33 <Slereah> Isn't machine code exactly what the CPU gets?
22:43:36 <pikhq> Between weird microcode tricks and nonlinear execution of code...
22:43:41 <Slereah> I thought the more abstracted one was assembly
22:43:50 <Bike> aseembly is just a textual representation for "machine code".
22:43:59 <Bike> But it turns out that "machine code" isn't "direct" either.
22:44:21 <APott> Depends what you refer to as machine code.
22:44:42 <pikhq> Slereah: Yes, but x86 basically turns the opcodes into an internal RISC ISA and then executes that.
22:44:55 <pikhq> Turns out it's hard to do anything sophisticated with CISC.
22:44:56 <APott> now that part is beyond me
22:45:11 <Slereah> At least with Brainfuck you know what you're getting!
22:45:18 <pikhq> And then there's register renaming and such...
22:45:22 <Bike> until you have to worry about wrapping cells
22:45:46 <pikhq> Some x86 opcodes take effectively 0 cycles.
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22:45:52 <Slereah> Wrapping cells is just the BF version of full memory
22:46:00 <APott> So I'm bored and I want some practice and such. What's your suggestion for a medium level language to interpret?
22:46:13 <APott> medium level I mean medium skill level to interpret
22:46:23 <Bike> real fast nora's hair salon: shear disaster download
22:47:05 <myname> i always thought of buildung a subleq processor
22:47:11 <Taneb> Bike, I don't know that one
22:47:16 <myname> caching would be horrible, though
22:47:23 <Taneb> Did you mean Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
22:47:39 <Bike> i meant what i said and i said waht i meant
22:47:55 <APott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload ?
22:48:02 <APott> lol okay Dr. Suess
22:48:03 <Taneb> APott, that's Underload
22:48:17 <Taneb> *shudder* that was Lewis Carrol
22:48:41 <APott> Alright, I will look into it
22:49:24 <myname> i'd say befunge is medium difficulty
22:49:46 <Slereah> In what language will you code it?
22:49:59 <Slereah> Interpreter difficulty vary a lot with it
22:50:15 <Slereah> Brainfuck is pretty easy to do in C, Unlambda in Scheme
22:50:20 <Slereah> But not so much vice versa
22:50:34 <myname> APott: just wondering, do you have any opinion about rust?
22:50:49 <APott> As in Mozilla's language?
22:51:33 <APott> I think it's to new
22:51:43 <APott> I don't really like it
22:52:05 <Bike> i don't think brainfuck is that hard in scheme... or unlambda in C, probably
22:52:23 <Slereah> Well unlambda is trivial in Scheme
22:52:37 <myname> APott: people there say D is for C++ coders who like C++ and rust is for C++ coders who hate C++
22:52:52 <Bike> i mean i have a "brainfuck to lisp compiler" that's like twelve lines.
22:53:16 <ais523\unfoog> a brainfuck to almost anything compiler is like 12 lines
22:53:19 <Slereah> Well I guess it's not too hard to do with lists for tape
22:53:24 <Bike> right, exactly
22:53:25 <ais523\unfoog> unless the target language is almost impossible to write in
22:53:32 <APott> D for me is a perfect language for several reasons. I like what C++ does, I like the OO paradigms, some of the syntax, and how things are organized.
22:53:33 <Bike> scheme has arrays...
22:53:46 <pikhq> Brainfuck to x86 MMU? :)
22:53:48 <APott> But I like higher level features like you may see in Java or C#
22:54:11 <APott> D is right in the middle, has low level features, a beautiful syntax and some high level features
22:55:12 <zzo38> APott: Such features can be good for some things, although I happen to like macros and pointers; many programming languages don't implement very good macros. BLISS is one that has powerful macros and actually has many other features which are pretty good too; however I think it lacks a proper type system.
22:55:25 <zzo38> (Unfortunately I don't know of any GNU BLISS compiler)
22:55:57 <myname> rust has 4 kinds of pointers!
22:56:05 <Bike> i have pointers
22:56:23 <APott> In a language like D I don't see the need of macros
22:57:06 <zzo38> APott: Maybe, but I find macros (and meta-macros, and meta-meta-macros, and meta-meta-meta-macros) are always useful things to have.
22:57:44 <Bike> btw zzo didn't you just say "Maybe you're right, but actually you're totally wrong"
22:58:15 <APott> Read through some pages on the site, it's quite feature filled: http://dlang.org/overview.html
22:58:18 <zzo38> Bike: Not really, since some people might not find it as useful or as necessary as other people.
22:59:06 <ais523\unfoog> APott: IIRC some standard language features are implemented as macros
22:59:19 <ais523\unfoog> they work quite differently from C-style macros, though
22:59:47 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: APott's arguing that D doesn't need them, despite the fact that it has them
22:59:55 <elliott> why are we arguing about that?
23:00:19 <APott> Depends what you mean by macros
23:00:19 <Bike> because the topic of this channel is programming languages and we gotta stay on topic.
23:00:50 <ais523\unfoog> well, programming languages generally there are loads of channels for
23:01:01 <ais523\unfoog> given that that's a major part of what Freenode is for
23:01:26 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
23:01:52 <ais523\unfoog> this channel's for the languages that didn't quite make the mainstream, due to being mindbogglingly badly designed
23:01:59 <APott> Almost any reason you may use macros in C isn't needed in D because everything is implemented in the language
23:02:06 <zzo38> TeX has very powerful macro system, sufficient to do such things as sorting an index, playing chess, and implementing a BASIC interpreter.
23:02:14 <pikhq> Though one wonders about C++.
23:02:31 <APott> I believe the same with C++
23:03:15 <zzo38> ais523: I specified them in an arbitrary order actually. The first two I have done; the third someone else has done.
23:03:39 <zzo38> APott: Perhaps in some languages you get that to varying degrees, although I prefer to have the macro system instead and have a standard library of macros to implement many of these higher level language features.
23:05:22 <zzo38> I have written a file about what features I would like to see in "Black-C" which is a variant of GNU89 C. I don't mention things that need extra runtime support since I want to be "C-like" in its runtime environment.
23:06:27 <zzo38> I did look at stuff about D before; they did fix the template syntax that is no good in C++.
23:09:58 <APott> is there an esoteric language with emoticons? I'm curious lol
23:10:14 <zzo38> APott: Yes I think there is at least one.
23:10:21 <zzo38> (I forget what it is called)
23:10:22 <Taneb> ":)" is a valid brainfuck program
23:10:38 <zzo38> Taneb: So is anything with balanced square brackets.
23:10:40 <Taneb> Although not a valid Underload program!
23:10:52 <APott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emoticon ?
23:14:37 <APott> So who was I talking about macros with? What exactly do you need macros for in C, the most
23:15:11 <Bike> did you get shot
23:15:31 <zzo38> C macros aren't quite very powerful but can do a few things, including really unusual things
23:15:35 <Bike> you. you jjust stopped
23:15:47 <zzo38> Especially when used with GNU extensions
23:16:14 <myname> C macros can be used to do anything you really shouldn't do with macros
23:16:14 <APott> most things you may used macros for in C have a specific keyword in D for i
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23:17:51 <zzo38> Another thing I have used C macros for is to pass around local variables and arguments to subroutines if they want a copy
23:18:19 <APott> why not just pass as an argument?
23:19:22 <zzo38> In case you are calling the same subroutine several times and they want copies of the variables
23:19:37 <zzo38> It just makes it a bit more convenient for me, that is all
23:19:51 <APott> in D you can just define a constant
23:19:53 <zzo38> These programs are open source so you are allowed to look (and modify it)
23:19:59 <APott> const int num = 5;
23:20:10 <zzo38> You can do that in C too, but that isn't what I was doing.
23:21:12 <myname> for zoidberg { whoop(); }
23:21:31 <zzo38> Specifically I made this macro: #define Add_to_parsebuf() if(k)add_to_parsebuf(parsebuf,dict,d,k,el,ne,p1,flag),k=0;p1=p+1;
23:21:44 <Bike> this is clearly the perfect opportunity to mention my esolang idea so i'm going to do that: verilog, but for 1940s targeting computers.
23:22:01 <zzo38> Bike: OK, can you give some details?
23:22:29 <Bike> i'm having trouble thinking up how exactly relationships should be specified. like, say you have a shaft and a gear. there are tons of ways to connect those - you could have the shaft at a different place on the gear, or have the gear rotate around it freely
23:23:07 <Bike> it doesn't really lend itself to "well here are the basic gates"
23:24:29 <zzo38> Bike: Then you need to make up a SHAFT command and a GEAR command and the commands for connection; at least if being made like HWPL it works by specifying connections; Verilog works by events instead so you would need to figure out how that works and I don't know.
23:24:32 <Bike> and that's not even getting into like, three dimensional cams, which are basically specified as a mostly arbitrary volume.
23:25:17 <zzo38> I don't know much about that.
23:25:28 <zzo38> But you can post in esolang wiki list of ideas if you have something to write there.
23:25:50 <Bike> eh i'd like to actually write up a proper page. it's kind of dumb hanging out here when i don't even have a wiki account.
23:26:34 <zzo38> Then register (optional, I think) and post. Even if you don't know what to write on a proper page, it can be written in list of ideas, at least.
23:28:05 <ais523\unfoog> even for spambots, apparently, although we changed the CAPTCHA a few days ago
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23:55:52 <fizzie> I think I saw #define forever for (;;) somewhere. (And then forever { ... } later.)
23:56:13 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:58:01 <myname> i would've made #define ever (;;)
23:58:34 <fizzie> #define getit (;;) for getit { ... }
23:59:18 <oerjan> fizzie: shouldn't that be #define getit (;0;)
00:02:45 <HackEgo> [U+27E9 MATHEMATICAL RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET]
00:04:14 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: there's an annotation in Unicode saying that that's the correct one to use for a ket
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00:09:30 <oerjan> > execWriter . forever $ tell "hi! "
00:09:31 <lambdabot> "hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi...
00:10:01 <HackEgo> hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \ hi \
00:11:22 <int-e> @unlambda ``ci`c`. `.!`.i`.hi
00:11:22 <lambdabot> hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi! hi!...
00:12:12 <oerjan> > fst $ (runRWS . forever $ do x <- get; tell [x]; put (x+1)) undefined 0
00:12:14 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a0, b0)'
00:12:24 <lambdabot> RWS r w s a -> r -> s -> (a, s, w)
00:13:09 <oerjan> > view _3 $ (runRWS . forever $ do x <- get; tell [x]; put (x+1)) undefined 0
00:13:11 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
00:15:25 <oerjan> > view _3 $ (runRWS . forever $ do x <- get; tell [x]; modify . (+) =<< ask) 2 1
00:15:27 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51,5...
00:16:54 <HackEgo> seq: invalid floating point argument: 1 2 10000 \ Try `seq --help' for more information.
00:17:02 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Lens.Combinators.&' [infixl 1] of a section
00:17:03 <HackEgo> 1 \ 3 \ 5 \ 7 \ 9 \ 11 \ 13 \ 15 \ 17 \ 19 \ 21 \ 23 \ 25 \ 27 \ 29 \ 31 \ 33 \ 35 \ 37 \ 39 \ 41 \ 43 \ 45 \ 47 \ 49 \ 51 \ 53 \ 55 \ 57 \ 59 \ 61 \ 63 \ 65 \ 67 \ 69 \ 71 \ 73 \ 75 \ 77 \ 79 \ 81 \ 83 \ 85 \ 87 \ 89 \ 91 \ 93 \ 95 \ 97 \ 99 \ 101 \ 103 \ 105 \ 107 \ 109 \ 111 \ 113 \ 115 \ 117 \ 119 \ 121 \ 123 \ 125 \ 127 \ 129 \ 131 \ 133 \ 135
00:17:39 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51,5...
00:18:45 <oerjan> (i wasn't trying to golf, anyway)
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00:22:09 * oerjan briefly wonders how many of the "quantum" esolangs actually are related to quantum computing rather than the "take several paths at a time (and discard the ones whose result you don't like)" misunderstanding of it
00:22:37 <oerjan> i vaguely _think_ i may have seen one.
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00:23:12 <zzo38> Well, a few have Hadamard transformers I think
00:23:31 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I think you are correct
00:23:34 <oerjan> right (to both of you)
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00:24:37 <oerjan> there's however a somewhat interesting complexity class that you get by combining both those ideas, "quantum computing with superselection"
00:25:21 <oerjan> it's not known to be equal to either of the subsets, but fits inside PSPACE. it's in the graph at the top of aaronson's blog.
00:28:05 <oerjan> oh it was postselection, not superselection
00:29:55 <oerjan> superselection also means something, not exactly sure what it's for
00:31:31 <oerjan> oh and it's equal to PP, a complexity class defined without any quantum
00:32:04 <Bike> it's cool how seemingly half of aaronson's job is telling peole quantum computers suck
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00:39:47 <ais523\unfoog> for my Physics A-level project, I wrote something about how quantum computers work
00:40:00 <ais523\unfoog> and implemented a simulator capable of handing Shor's algorithm on 8-bit integers
00:40:09 <ais523\unfoog> calculating a probability distribution for the result
00:40:19 <ais523\unfoog> it had like a 30-40% chance of getting the correct answer, IIRC
00:40:31 <ais523\unfoog> quantum computer use in practice is, you run the experiment, then you check the result
00:45:58 <APott> So does anyone know anything about how virtual machines are implemented?
00:46:05 <APott> As in something like the JVM
00:46:39 <Bike> well yeah, they're like any language interpreter, except you have a billion dollars so you can make them fast as shit
00:48:09 <APott> But I read about various virtual machine implementations
00:48:20 <APott> Like Google's V8 Javascript engine
00:48:34 <APott> they say they go straight from AST to Machine code
00:48:47 <Bike> that's a (just in time) compiler.
00:48:48 <APott> this is why it's so fast, how do they execute machine code?
00:49:04 <Bike> how do they execute machine code? well, they have these things called computer processors,
00:49:16 <APott> I mean programatically
00:49:41 <APott> I've read they basically get all the instructions in byte format or whatever then create a function pointer to the bytes in memory
00:49:51 <APott> then they can just call it like a function
00:50:01 <Bike> Something like that.
00:51:36 <Bike> i mean, obviously that's not conforming C or whatever, but you still get the idea.
00:52:24 <Bike> that's von neumann architecture for ya.
00:56:34 <Bike> did i tell a joke by accident...
00:57:01 <APott> no it's just I don't know as much as you so I said lol as a response
00:57:15 <APott> as i began reading a wikipedia article
00:57:32 <Bike> i've never really understood that. i thought 'lol' meant laughing
00:58:04 <APott> because before I looked it up I thought it was a joke since I didn't know what It meant
00:58:14 <APott> and it was kinda stated like one
00:58:58 <Bike> no that's pretty much just how i write
00:59:48 <Bike> i am The Living Joke
01:02:15 <APott> are there any popular languages that interpret the ast
01:03:01 <int-e> @unlambda ```s``s.1`k``s`k`s`k.1`s`k.,i``s``s`ks``s`kk``s``si`ki`ki``s``s`ks``s`k`si``s`kk``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s`k`s`kk``s``s`ksk`k`s`k.1``s``s`ksk`k`s`k.0`ki
01:03:01 <lambdabot> 1,10,11,100,101,110,111,1000,1001,1010,1011,1100,1101,1110,1111,10000,10001...
01:03:21 <int-e> I forgot how icky that programming language (Unlambda) really is :)
01:03:27 <Bike> APott: what do you mean
01:04:35 <APott> Like as I mentioned earlier with V8
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01:05:00 <APott> It translates the ast to machine code, I'm assuming other languages do that but are any popular that interpret ast?
01:05:13 <Bike> that's how most interpreters work...
01:05:21 <Bike> you have a "parse" step and then an "evaluation" step.
01:05:25 <APott> I've never written in it before. I don't even know what it's mainly used for
01:05:51 <Bike> doing them both together would be kind of silly ("we call it Perl")
01:05:57 <int-e> bytecode interpreters used to be popular.
01:06:05 <APott> Just what everything i've read has made me believe that's not enough or suitable
01:06:22 <int-e> parse -> bytecode -> interpret that, rather than an AST
01:06:33 <pikhq> Bytecode interpreters are profoundly faster than AST interpreters.
01:06:36 <Bike> yeah that... hapens all the time, int-e
01:06:58 <Bike> i have a language i should write a bytecode thing for but effffffort
01:06:58 <pikhq> Ruby's the only mainstream language that really *used* a direct AST interpreter.
01:07:16 <APott> Okay, I didn't know that, thanks
01:07:38 <APott> Why would a bytecode interpreter be faster since the AST has to be translated to bytecode which is then interpreted?
01:07:39 <zzo38> Maybe you might want to interpret some kinds of macros while parsing AST
01:07:57 <Bike> APott: the idea is that the ast->bytecode step takes some effort but you only have to do it onc.
01:08:00 <int-e> APott: better locality, smaller memory footprint --> better for caches
01:08:23 <Bike> that too yeah.
01:11:41 <pikhq> It's also quite a bit quicker to branch on.
01:12:03 <pikhq> Especially if you do somewhat sophisticated tricks to help the CPU's branch predictor along.
01:12:29 <Bike> fizzie: this shit reminds me, how much can i rely on matlab's jit? also if you want me to stop reminding you matlab exists that's ok
01:13:02 <pikhq> Bytecode's also nicer in terms of future development because you can generally add a JIT later.
01:13:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Especially if it is harvard bytecode, that is.
01:14:05 <Bike> i've been wondering if i should bother rearranging things to index into a matrix instead of branching but it seems like such a pain
01:14:12 <pikhq> zzo38: Which you almost always do for interpreter bytecodes. :)
01:14:53 <Bike> ... i wonder if even just using switch/case instead of elseifelseifelseif would speed it up. maybe the jit does jump tables
01:15:42 <Bike> or i could just give up and start rewriting the thing in scipy.
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01:19:13 <oerjan> APott: calling machine code in memory can be basically as you heard, except that nowadays you also need to change the security settings of the memory. by default you cannot write to and execute the same part of memory (this is to make attacks harder by not making it too easy for attackers to execute anything they want.)
01:20:39 <oerjan> (also helps against some bugs, i guess)
01:20:56 <Bike> some terrifying bugs
01:21:06 <APott> Will just raw instructions execute or will there be some sort of other step before it's executed?
01:21:08 <zzo38> pikhq: A few aren't; a few partially are. In Z-machine, it is possible to execute instructions from RAM, although usually it isn't; there is the high ROM area which can contain only instructions and packed text strings. JUMP with a variable operand might still make compiling it a bit more difficult, though.
01:21:54 <Bike> APott: well you set up the argument stack and all, is that what you mean
01:22:04 <Bike> if there are arguments.
01:22:09 <zzo38> (In addition, there is the restriction of where routines and text strings can start, so you don't have to check all of them; also, routines always begin with a byte having the high four bits cleared, so if any of them are set you can skip that one.)
01:22:28 <APott> Bike: Yeah that makes sense
01:23:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Hence "almost". :)
01:23:33 <oerjan> APott: well it's as raw as you get to put into memory. although nowadays computer processors transform it to even rawer "microcode" internally.
01:23:53 <zzo38> I am in the process of writing a program to convert OASYS codes (which is harvard) into Z-machine codes; currently no optimizations are done.
01:23:54 <oerjan> APott: but it's the same format as most programs use.
01:24:39 <zzo38> (OASYS also lacks variable jumps; this also makes it easier to compile.)
01:24:59 <APott> I've completely lost track of what you're talking about
01:25:37 <Bike> none of this should be new to you, since "load a program into memory and run it" is the same thing that happens when you run a program from your desktop :)
01:26:04 <APott> I was talking to zzo38
01:26:17 <HackEgo> 27) <zzo38> I am not on the moon. \ 116) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple \ 150) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 174) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probab
01:26:44 <HackEgo> 174) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
01:30:13 <Bike> i woulda thought free vacuum permitivitty or something would be more 'broken'.
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01:49:40 <APott> So are any of you asian?
01:49:40 <pikhq> "Fix" in this sense meaning "set it to a fixed number, rather than an experimental quantity"
01:49:48 <pikhq> No, but I speak Japanese.
01:50:07 <Bike> where did that come from
01:50:33 <APott> If you knew me irl I have an ongoing inside joke about asians
01:50:46 <APott> I always joke about asians but I have nothing against them, they're awesome
01:50:53 <APott> http://www.bearnerd.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Asians-meme.jpg
01:56:56 <APott> 0100% positive I'm not racist
01:57:08 <APott> I talk to asians irl on a regular basis
01:57:13 <APott> there is no problem
01:57:24 <Bike> like is this the "asians are all super smart math nerds" sort of crud
01:57:51 <APott> just kinda like that picture i linked. Just--asians.
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01:58:05 <APott> Anyway lets move on,
01:58:42 <APott> lol that message is awesome whatever you would call that.
02:04:35 <zzo38> APott: Do you mean the quit message?
02:06:35 <elliott> APott: is your criterion for whether or not you are racist actually "I talk to asian people"
02:07:06 <oerjan> as a general rule, if you have to explain why you're not racist you are already on thin ice.
02:07:27 <oerjan> and it gets thinner the stronger you argue.
02:07:28 <zzo38> Because I speak a language, I am racist too, although I try not to be too racist.
02:07:29 <APott> thin ice doesn't mean i'm racist
02:07:43 <APott> Definition of racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
02:08:14 <APott> I believe none of that
02:08:28 <oerjan> i was starting to write a response but then realized i was trolling.
02:09:15 <zzo38> Do you know any Washizu mahjong players?
02:09:28 <APott> nope I don't even know what that is
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02:10:05 <zzo38> Do you know any mahjong game?
02:11:36 <APott> I suppose I've seen something like that before
02:11:46 <nooodl> i've only ever played mahjong solitaire. i kinda want to play actual mahjong once
02:13:34 <zzo38> nooodl: Japanese mahjong? There are many different kinds; Japanese mahjong is popular in many places. I play Japanese mahjong.
02:13:48 <nooodl> yeah, japanese mahjong
02:13:59 <zzo38> nooodl: Do you know anything about the rules?
02:15:04 <nooodl> i don't. all i know is it's similar to card games like bridge
02:15:37 <zzo38> There are some similarities to some card games, such as bridge and rummy
02:15:48 <quintopia> zzo38: would you like to have a tichu night
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02:16:09 <quintopia> you and me and two of your friends
02:18:15 <zzo38> quintopia: I do not know what that means.
02:18:32 <quintopia> zzo38: it's a good game you'd like it.
02:21:16 <zzo38> That doesn't explain anything.
02:23:15 <oerjan> <Taneb> *shudder* that was Lewis Carrol <-- um pretty sure it was dr seuss?
02:23:38 <APott> wow that's old but that confused me to
02:23:48 <Taneb> It was a line from Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass
02:23:53 <oerjan> possibly carroll wrote it too
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02:24:13 <APott> I don't even know the line that was spoken, what was it again?
02:24:51 <APott> http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/44212-i-meant-what-i-said-and-i-said-what-i
02:24:58 <APott> I said what I meant and meant what I said?
02:25:21 <APott> I meant what I said and I said what I meant*
02:25:24 <oerjan> <Bike> i meant what i said and i said waht i meant
02:25:42 <oerjan> Taneb: i think you may be confusing it with another quote
02:25:57 <APott> That was from a Dr. Suess story I'm pretty sure
02:26:09 <APott> I suppose that could have beena coincidence or he borrowed it
02:26:15 <APott> depends what you're referring to
02:26:19 <oerjan> 'If I'd meant that, I'd have said it,' said Humpty Dumpty.
02:26:30 <APott> yes but that's not what was said
02:26:31 <Bike> if it helps i was actually quoting a porno
02:26:37 <Taneb> oerjan, hmm, possibly
02:26:49 <elliott> it definitely wasn't Dr. Suess.
02:27:07 <oerjan> elliott: well we have to adjust for the fact it was "waht"
02:27:15 <APott> but that was in a Dr. Suess story, specifically the onewith the elephant
02:27:18 <shachaf> oerjan: But what did Humpty Dumpty mean by that?
02:27:29 <APott> horton or whatever it's name was
02:28:57 <APott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horton_Hatches_the_Egg#Analysis
02:29:04 <APott> near the bottom of the paragraph
02:29:13 <APott> I don't even know why we're talking about this lol
02:30:03 <oerjan> because this is a channel for incorrigible nitpickers
02:31:37 <Taneb> "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean——neither more nor less."
02:31:38 <Taneb> That was what I was thinking of
02:32:28 <APott> same message completely different words.
02:32:57 <oerjan> I DON'T THINK IT WAS THE SAME MESSAGE
02:33:11 <Bike> it wasn't a very good porno
02:33:31 <Taneb> Bike, it's probably precisely as good as every porno I have ever seen
02:33:57 <APott> close to the same--lol
02:34:18 * oerjan is cleverly assuming Taneb has seen zero.
02:34:30 <Taneb> "Then you should say what you mean," the March Hare went on.
02:34:30 <Taneb> "I do," Alice hastily replied; "at least—at least I mean what I say—that's the same thing, you know."
02:34:52 <Taneb> Another near-miss Carroll quote
02:35:10 <APott> but that's not what was said, i think I won here
02:35:50 <APott> this si the stupidest conversation ever
02:36:29 <APott> one of the stupidest conversations ever*
02:36:54 * oerjan hands APott the Useless Argument Champion Cup, in genuine pewter.
02:37:40 <APott> So what OS's you guys running?
02:37:51 <pikhq> Linux deagol 3.10-3-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.10.11-1 (2013-09-10) x86_64 GNU/Linux
02:38:17 <APott> I'm running Ubuntu Linux 13.04
02:38:33 <Taneb> Linux Mint, but not for the long term probably
02:38:44 <oerjan> i keep annoying everyone else by staying on Windows despite not liking it much (8.1 at the moment)
02:38:55 <APott> I won't comment on that.
02:39:16 <Bike> there's a guy in my twitter feed who can't figure out how to turn off his windows machine after the 8.1 upgrae
02:39:20 <APott> Linux Mint with what GUI? Last time I used it with Cinnamon
02:39:55 <APott> Cinnamon was pretty nice, needs some work though
02:39:57 <zzo38> Bike: Does the SHUTDOWN command still work?
02:41:01 <zzo38> The menus and stuff are all different, but most of the same keyboard shortcuts continue to work (even to access things that aren't available on any menu anymore), and cmd.exe is still available, at least in Windows 8.0
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02:42:16 <Bike> i don't just, i don't like ask near-strangers "have you tried command prompt"
02:42:42 <APott> I have 8.0 on a separate partition just in case of an emergency
02:43:03 <APott> because sometimes you can fuck up linux quite easily
02:44:11 <APott> That's what you run?
02:44:12 <trout> using openbox+lxpanel but looking to change
02:44:19 <APott> I've never tried it
02:44:25 <APott> any good, long term use?
02:44:26 <zzo38> Linux, Windows, a lot of systems are complicated and can be mixed up easily; DOS is a simple system that boots very fast and runs very fast too.
02:44:44 <Taneb> zzo38, wasn't DOS considered quite bloated when it was released?
02:44:53 <trout> APott: if you are going to try it, use pcbsd
02:44:55 <Bike> finally, a workable solution to the problem of computers. dos.
02:45:23 <APott> zzo38: This is true but sometimes some simple hardware/driver mix ups can be an issue, on windows things are a bit more stable
02:45:26 <quintopia> "I meant what I said what I meant; an elephant's faithful one hundred percent" --oh, childhood, thanks for reminding me :)
02:45:35 <Bike> or are you trying to sell me...........................
02:45:44 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, but that is just because many people said that; it does contain some features it doesn't need but it is still pretty good compared to others
02:45:44 <trout> Bike: nah, trying to ride on the Bike
02:45:53 <quintopia> (locked up my computer egojsouting a long battle. would have replied sooner.)
02:46:00 <APott> my bikes back tire is flat
02:46:28 <Bike> well if you're riding me you would use the pedals, not the peddles
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02:46:43 <Bike> i don't mean to be rude here, you're the operator, but this is pretty basic
02:47:26 <APott> So I found these old Beatles vinyls on E-Bay and I think I'm going to bid on them
02:47:38 <APott> The seller placed the starting price quite low
02:48:04 <zzo38> Do you have a record player though? (If not, it isn't that complicated anyways)
02:48:20 <Bike> well beatles vinyl isn't rare
02:48:56 <zzo38> Do you like Pokemon card (with the old-style rules)?
02:49:28 <APott> I do not but am going to invest in one
02:49:56 <APott> I'm interested in starting a collection of them, since me grandfather gave me a good amount of them I thought why not?
02:51:08 <Bike> https://github.com/search?q=exec+sudo+%24_GET&type=Code
02:52:43 <Bike> it's beautiful
02:52:51 <APott> a lot of bad practice
02:52:54 <zzo38> If "exec sudo $_GET" is a PHP code, it is a terrible code
02:53:15 <zzo38> (I haven't actually followed the link so I don't know how many results and that stuff)
02:53:34 <Bike> echo shell_exec("sudo ./smbkill ".$_GET['kill']." 2>&1");, what could possibl go wrong
02:53:50 <zzo38> Bike: A lot of stuff
02:53:50 <APott> this is the worst php practice I've ever seen
02:55:30 <APott> That so many people are writing horrible code?
02:55:51 <APott> not necessarily horrible but extremely insecure
02:55:51 <Bike> not sure if this is quite as funny as people putting private pgp keys in github dotfiles, but it's up there
02:56:34 <zzo38> A lot of PHP programmers write terrible programs though
02:56:46 <APott> The language promotes bad practices
02:57:09 <zzo38> Well, PHP isn't a very good programming language anyways, due to a number of problems (even ignoring bad practices)
02:57:15 <APott> I know first hand because it was the first language I learned and when I began learning others I realised how bad the stuff I was doing was
02:57:24 <APott> I need a comma in there lol
02:57:52 <shachaf> zzo38: What is a very good programming language?
02:58:21 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't really know but many are OK; they can be good for different purposes.
02:58:46 <APott> PHP being good for web scripting
02:59:00 <APott> I think it does it's job fine it just has it's issues
02:59:24 <zzo38> APott: Yes there are many issues with it
03:00:04 <APott> I know there are issues but I can't even name any off the top of my head
03:00:12 <zzo38> I don't know what programming language I learned first; I think it was BASIC. I still program in BASIC sometimes, especially for writing computer games, since it is OK for many kinds of games.
03:00:21 <quintopia> APott: you don't need to. there is a whole website devoted to listing them.
03:01:15 <APott> I will look for it. The only ones I can think of would be speed, and security
03:01:49 <zzo38> APott: There are several others too, such as syntax problems that it won't work if you put [] after a function call, and so on
03:02:27 <zzo38> Although I have written some webpages in PHP, such as the FurryScript form (the backend is also in PHP, even though it is a standalone program that doesn't require a webpage), and a form to run TeX programs (which is far simpler than the one Wikipedia uses, and probably far more secure too)
03:02:31 <APott> Does that work in C? (I've never tried it)
03:02:34 <zzo38> However I have once used SQL to write a webpage
03:02:42 <Bike> what, array indexing the result of a function call?
03:02:45 <Bike> 'course it works
03:02:54 <APott> oh, I've never had to do it
03:03:01 <zzo38> APott: I think so, but even if it doesn't you can use *(f()+x) and stuff like that
03:03:05 <Bike> it only doesn't in php because the parser is terrible
03:03:11 <zzo38> In PHP it doesn't do that though
03:03:16 <APott> isn't the parser generated?
03:03:20 <Bike> this is a language where using certain denormal floats crashes everything
03:03:29 <zzo38> Bike: Yes it is really terrible
03:03:51 <APott> Isn't the php front end lex/yacc generated?
03:04:10 <quintopia> Bike: how is it that exec("sudo blah") even works? what sort of permissions would be required? i know i'm set up that every sudo command needs a password entry.
03:04:21 <Bike> quintopia: i don't want to think about it
03:05:49 <APott> So has anyone tried D? I use it all the time and there's a fantastic package manager for it
03:06:01 <zzo38> APott: I haven't, but I have read things about it
03:06:15 <Bike> i know a guy who uses D but his code is so shitty i was put off
03:07:01 <APott> :/ It's such a small community it's hard to get it going because there aren't many libraries as of now
03:08:21 <Bike> don't worry, you didn't want me anyway. i read the snobol manual for fun
03:09:55 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine (which is gopher-based) is written in C, although the main menu is in PHP, and the local mode menu is in Haskell (this Haskell program calls the C program and parses the gopher menus it outputs). (The PHP though is only the menu; the server config runs the C program directly when needed)
03:10:54 <zzo38> OkCupid/HelloQuizzy is HTTP and it is written in C++ though (I do not think the source-codes are available though; it is coincidental that Internet Quiz Engine operates in similar ways)
03:11:57 <shachaf> zzo38: That sounds complicated.
03:12:17 <Bike> complicated, but can survive nuclear fallout
03:12:30 <zzo38> shachaf: It does, although that is because you haven't seen it. It is actually not so complicated.
03:12:32 <APott> CGI or whatever you want to call it in C/C++ is quite simple
03:13:25 <zzo38> APott: Yes, I know you can. (The webpage I wrote in SQL once actually used a CGI program I wrote in C which calls SQLite and gives it parameters from the query and outputs the headers and that stuff)
03:14:32 <APott> So why don't we do it in the road?
03:15:00 <APott> Pennsylvania Avenue
03:15:14 <APott> In the District of Columbia
03:15:38 <oerjan> APott: iirc CGI also has broken security, it puts fields from the url in environment variables named by them.
03:15:52 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't think CGI does that.
03:16:01 <oerjan> they had to neuter a feature of the ghc haskell compiler because of it
03:16:16 <APott> I don't see how it's insecure though
03:16:20 <zzo38> I think it does for the headers but not for the URL
03:16:28 <Bike> lol, it has register_globals?
03:16:31 <Bike> best feature ever.
03:16:37 <APott> GET data is stored in an environment variable
03:16:55 <zzo38> Bike: I never use it, although sometimes when I write such a PHP program I ensure it is working OK even if register_globals is enabled
03:17:05 <quintopia> is there an irssi script which looks in your logs to tell you the other nicks used by a person connecting from a particular hostmask
03:17:31 <Bike> can't you just grep -r hostmask irclogs
03:18:05 <quintopia> yes. but with a channel moving quick it's hard to copy the hostmask from the screen
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03:18:30 <zzo38> quintopia: The hostmask is sent with every message, you just need to tell your client to display it if you want to copy it
03:18:35 <oerjan> APott: well it was a security flaw when you combined it with haskell's runtime environment variables for debugging...
03:18:45 <quintopia> zzo38: i don't want it displayed with every message silly
03:19:11 <Bike> you could just /whois them and copy it from that window.
03:19:16 <APott> oerjan: isn't that a haskell issue then?
03:20:01 <zzo38> My gopher server is much more simple; it just puts the selector string in an environment variable called SELECTOR when it is calling an external program (the prefix tree is stored in the configuration file, which tells it which files are executable, which are text, which are binary, etc)
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03:20:40 <quintopia> Bike: it isn't a separate window. it appears in the same window and moves with the rest of the chat. (i set it up that way.)
03:20:51 <oerjan> i'm actually not quite sure if it was environment or command line flags, when i think about it.
03:20:57 <Bike> ur clearly mad
03:21:18 <quintopia> Bike: also i don't want to have to remember the grep command :P
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03:21:51 <zzo38> quintopia: Then put it in a shell script.
03:21:52 <Bike> my sensors indicate that you might be a lazy ass nerd
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03:22:00 <oerjan> APott: partly, but it's CGI which is violating ordinary assumptions of where unsafe input gets communicated to programs.
03:22:42 <APott> If it goes in an environment variable then the program that reads the variable has the job of making sure it's safe, not the web server
03:23:12 <APott> it's not like it's being injected into random environment variables, it has a specific one
03:23:59 <quintopia> Bike: lazy programmers are best programmers. I like to keep a not-invented-here attitude.
03:24:26 <APott> Don't lazy programmers just surf the web for snippets?
03:25:29 <tswett> quintopia: use /whois and then hit Ctrl-S or whatever.
03:26:07 <quintopia> tswett: what is it that undoes that? ctrl-q was it?
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03:26:26 <oerjan> APott: um the problem (and it may have been flags, not environment variables) was that someone might fake a url that set an option that the program does _not_ expect to be set from a url.
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03:26:32 <tswett> I'm not just a lazy programmer, I'm a lazy IRC user. Whenever I want to say something on IRC, I search some IRC logs for someone who's already sent a message saying it.
03:26:45 <Bike> wow, i'm an idiot. what's ctrl s do
03:26:54 <zzo38> tswett: Are you lazy at typing too?
03:27:06 <zzo38> People who operate a computer ought to learn fast typing.
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03:27:42 <quintopia> tswett: do you know of any scripts that let you grep logs directly into a channel, without having to specify the channel's logfile? basically /lastlog but for full logs?
03:27:45 <APott> oerjan: That's something that should always be checked by a CGI program
03:27:58 <tswett> quintopia: what do you mean by "into a channel"?
03:28:23 <quintopia> tswett: appended to the channel window the way /lastlog does
03:29:29 <tswett> So like /exec, if /exec knew how to tell grep what channel you're in.
03:29:49 <nooodl_> Bike: save your microsoft word document hth
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03:30:15 <tswett> zzo38: I was going to respond "yes" to your question asking if I was lazy at typing, but I couldn't find an IRC message that was just the word "yes".
03:30:42 <quintopia> amazing that you could find one saying that yes couldn't be found, but couldn't find "yes"
03:30:55 <quintopia> i guess others have had this problem
03:30:56 <tswett> ah yeah that's a good one
03:32:13 <APott> That's the song that happens to be playing in my playlist right now
03:32:30 <APott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fvJEpdq8a8
03:33:02 <quintopia> tswett: is it okay to agglomerate bits and pieces of different lines into the message you want?
03:33:39 <quintopia> fungot: how do you always come up with something so relevant just piecing together different things that others have said?
03:33:39 <fungot> quintopia: it's just that luketus is the only one i can think to do with
03:34:06 <tswett> but only two are valid? I don't even know
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03:35:48 <tswett> imo we should use four-valued booleans, because that's the best kind of logic
03:35:53 <APott> So I have a posture problem, I'm 6 feet 2 inches and my monitors are quite low
03:36:05 <APott> so I find myself slouching, how do i fix this?
03:36:19 <Bike> staple your monitors to the wall
03:36:35 <tswett> Well, the obvious answer is "don't slouch".
03:36:39 <APott> that's even more logical
03:36:41 <oerjan> APott: the problem was that this affected runtime options for the haskell program before the program itself got to run any checks. the name of files for putting debugging output was the main problem iirc. so they had to turn that off by default, which annoys everyone who _isn't_ making a CGI program.
03:37:08 <APott> tswett: well it's obviously a sub concious thing
03:37:16 <Bike> i'm pretty sure this is just dumb all around oejran
03:37:19 <tswett> Right. So somehow you have to make it a habit.
03:37:44 <APott> conscious* It would be easier if the monitors were my height
03:37:57 <APott> then it would be pointless to slouch making me not slouch
03:38:12 <tswett> Another obvious answer is "raise your monitors".
03:38:16 <Bike> have you got any fat books
03:38:19 <Bike> put em under your monitors
03:38:24 <Bike> chemistry textbooks work well for this
03:38:24 <quintopia> every time you catch yourself slouching you give yourself five cents to spend on something and sit up straight. but no cheating and slouching on purpose just to get the five cents.
03:39:07 <tswett> Every time you catch yourself slouching, fine yourself five cents for slouching, sit up straight, and reward yourself five cents for sitting up straight.
03:39:11 <APott> I have a ton of programming language books that I could use I suppose and some harry potter books. I'm only a sophmore in high school so I don't have chemistry books yet lol
03:39:25 <tswett> `translate ¿Funciona esto?
03:39:26 <HackEgo> This google api no longer exists.
03:39:30 <APott> tswett: that's fantastic
03:39:32 <Bike> ah, to be young and innocent, and not completely antipathetic to chemistry.
03:39:39 <Bike> antipathic? i forget
03:39:50 <quintopia> tswett: i like this plan. the punitive tax pays for the incentive in its entirety!
03:40:18 <tswett> Anyway, has anyone laughed at the Finnish in the topic yet?
03:41:00 <tswett> Quick, someone find a Finn!
03:41:07 <tswett> Like... Linus Torvalds! Wait, does he speak Finnish.
03:41:11 <quintopia> i'm guessing it says "Why did Lena have to get old?"
03:41:40 <APott> any asians in here atm?
03:42:09 <Bike> can you like... not do that maybe
03:42:36 <APott> Don't want to be an annoyance on my first day
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03:51:28 <zzo38> This program is actually not so complicated; it is a literate C program of less than 400 lines.
03:56:26 <quintopia> and somehow now it has completely changed
03:56:39 <quintopia> like it's a different version that doesn't support vimperator any more?
04:09:38 <quintopia> what. the. fuck. it's like i had a different firefox installed and i was auto-reverted and the one i was using just vanished.
04:10:05 <zzo38> I don't know what is the latest Firefox, and I don't know about all those other things either, sorry
04:24:28 <zzo38> Maybe when it crashed it changed something
04:24:36 <quintopia> but for some reason i can't open lightbeam. the menu item it is supposed to create...isn't there.
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05:24:05 <Sgeo> Well, Shogi just got a shout-out in Worm
05:24:50 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is that? I can play tsumeshogi but I don't know if that has anything to do with it?
05:25:02 <Sgeo> Worm is a story I'm reading
05:25:38 <Sgeo> Superheros and supervillains. Mostly villains.
05:25:53 <Sgeo> http://parahumans.wordpress.com/about/
05:25:56 <zzo38> And what is it about shogi?
05:27:09 <Sgeo> A bunch of characters are talking about a dangerous group of enemies. They were describing them in chess terms. Someone suggested looking at it as a different game, and Shogi came up, because apparently of a rule about using captured pieces as your own
05:27:13 <Sgeo> </a bit spoilery>
05:29:13 <zzo38> Yes, shogi dose have the rule about using captured pieces as your own (you keep them on your side off-board and can drop them onto a vacant space as a turn later on); shogi also has a rule that most pieces can promote by flipping over, and promotion is optional
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05:33:53 <zzo38> But when I am playing Dungeons&Dragons game I do sometimes think of some of the situations resembling strange chess variants
05:34:32 <zzo38> (Especially non-existent ones)
05:37:58 <zzo38> Or possibly you can even compare whatever you are doing with Pokemon card or Magic: the Gathering (for me, probably Pokemon since I am very positionally player)
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06:02:25 <zzo38> Would they ever have any situation where they may compare to mahjong instead?
06:05:30 <zzo38> In Pokemon tournaments, is it permitted to tamper with the trainer ID number of a basic pokemon that, when traded, is forced to evolve under all circumstances?
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06:21:24 <tswett> I have determined that the following words are likely to be prepositions: of, in, to, with, by, for, from, at, on, into, during, In, within.
06:21:56 <tswett> zzo38: how did you know that those lines I said came from the logs for a day on which mahjong was discussed?
06:22:14 <tswett> Here, let me give you guys even more words that are likely to be prepositions!
06:22:44 <tswett> both, between, through, including, Within, after, before, During, include, Although, increases, if, repair, throughout, along
06:23:34 <tswett> I think that repair now on, I'm going to replace all repair my prepositions repair the word "repair". It's such an excellent preposition.
06:23:39 <zzo38> tswett: I did not know; I just guessed.
06:23:47 <zzo38> It is nothing but a lucky guess.
06:25:09 <shachaf> what is the likelihood that i am a preposition
06:25:30 <tswett> shachaf: you're not in any of the clusters, so I can't say.
06:36:11 <zzo38> tswett: What did you use to determine that those words are likely to be prepositions?
06:36:23 <tswett> Cluster analysis in R.
06:36:37 <Jafet> Buffalo buffalo repair buffalo repair buffalo repair repair buffalo.
06:37:07 <zzo38> I have read about R before. What is cluster analysis, though?
06:37:58 <zzo38> (Maybe I will try to look in Wikipedia and/or R documentation)
06:38:26 <Bike> you put data points (words in this case) in n-dimensional space based on some parameters, and try to find clusters of points.
06:40:15 <zzo38> OK I found the examples of 2-dimensional clusters in Wikipedia.
06:45:34 <tswett> Gotta sleep. Good night, everyone.
06:50:16 <zzo38> Can you make cluster analysis in SQL?
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07:47:13 <zzo38> They say axiom of choice is equivalent to "the product of a collection of non-empty sets is non-empty". If the collection is allowed to be infinite, then I don't think it should necessarily apply. (But there are ZFC and ZF not C, so I suppose both ways can be correct but not together??)
07:48:11 <zzo38> How do you think of this?
07:48:41 <Bike> looks like "AC but only for finite families" is weaker than ZFC but still independent of ZF?
07:50:27 <Bike> oh, neverind, you can prove it from ZF
07:51:24 <zzo38> Yes, that is what that Wikipedia article says.
07:51:38 <shachaf> You don't think what should necessarily apply?
07:52:34 <Bike> "There exists a model of ZF¬C which has an infinite set of real numbers without a countably infinite subset." some wacky stuff here
07:52:53 <Bike> "There exists a model of ZF¬C in which there is a vector space with two bases of different cardinalities." wha
07:53:03 <zzo38> shachaf: That a product of an infinite collection of non-empty sets would necessarily be non-empty.
07:53:36 <elliott> Bike: models are weird though.
07:54:11 <Bike> i can't even imagine having two bases of different cardinalities though
07:55:08 <Bike> i think "The Axiom of Choice is obviously true, the well-ordering principle obviously false, and who can tell about Zorn's lemma" kind of sums it up for me
07:55:27 <elliott> Bike: well, that's because you're imagining reasonable models :P
07:55:49 <shachaf> The axiom of choice is obviously true, and so is the axiom of determinacy.
07:56:02 <zzo38> Bike: It isn't obviously true to me.
07:56:14 <Bike> elliott: i'm good at imagination
07:57:03 <Bike> i can imagine an infinite number of pools of fish, and walking along from one pool to the next, taing a fish from each and putting it in a new pool
07:57:09 <shachaf> Bike: it's even better when you take away the law of excluded middle
07:57:24 <shachaf> so imo just do that already
07:57:26 <Bike> it would smell nasty, but that's just a fact of life, when your life involves infinite numbers of fishes
07:57:32 <Bike> what's even better
07:57:56 <Bike> it's also a fact of life when your life involves a finite but large number of fishes, or finite but small fishes if they're close enough to you
07:58:33 <shachaf> did you see that one talk, The Five Stages of Accepting Constructive Mathematics
07:58:57 <oerjan> Bike: i find your argument fishy
07:59:22 <Bike> my imagination is not argumentative!
07:59:38 <zzo38> (In ZFC, axiom of choice is obviously true. But the axiom of choice doesn't seems like the best model to me, and therefore ZFC also isn't.)
07:59:39 <shachaf> oerjan: do you find me fishy
08:00:07 <oerjan> shachaf: seagulls usually are
08:00:20 <Bike> whoa jesus lebesgue was way later than i thought
08:06:27 <Bike> it's too late in the night to read tarski talk about what truth is, i feel
08:06:59 <zzo38> The axiom of dependent choice, when restricted to pointed sets, looks like OK to me, though.
08:07:28 <Bike> thank you based point
08:08:12 <shachaf> Bike: imo read smullyan talk about tarski talking about what truth is??
08:11:02 <shachaf> you could listen to swan lake instead
08:11:21 <Bike> too busy listening to post-whatever core revival
08:12:45 <Bike> don't hear any.
08:13:06 <Bike> well, it has one of those shaky things.
08:13:06 <shachaf> maybe you're deaf from all the drums
08:13:23 <Bike> like maracas, bt i don't think they're exactly maracas.
08:14:46 <Bike> this other track, definitely has light snares or something, though.
08:15:56 <Bike> and uh, other drums too.
08:23:14 <Bike> it took me seven minutes to think of that
08:23:47 <shachaf> Bike: instead of insulting things you should do the opposite of that
08:40:00 <zzo38> Listen to a Famicom music.
08:42:12 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't have any Famicom musics.
08:43:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Look in Famicompo Mini; there are a lot, some with expansion audio and some without.
08:46:14 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't know Japanese.
08:56:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Some of the files are in Englihs.
08:56:49 <zzo38> s/Englihs/English/
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11:05:12 <fizzie> Bike: SciPy hasn't really impressed me in terms of speed; as for MATLAB JIT, "I'unno", but it's clearly better than what it used to be. (Avoiding all explicit loops used to be even more of a priority, due to interpretation overhead.)
11:05:40 <fizzie> Bike: (Also I'm reminded of the existence of MATLAB pretty much every workday.)
11:06:14 <zzo38> I am wondering how easy it would be to do some of these things in SQL. I have done other statistical stuff in SQL successfully.
11:07:59 <zzo38> One example, maybe you make survey, store all responses in SQL tables, and then want to calculate the standard deviation of answers to the second question for the cases when the first question answer is "yes", and stuff like that.
11:08:56 <zzo38> SQL seems ideal for this things; SQL also seems ideal for a number of other things too.
11:09:50 <zzo38> A useful thing to have would be an aggregate which plots a graph of your data!
11:10:18 <zzo38> Something like SELECT XYPLOT(...) FROM ... WHERE ...
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11:21:44 <kmc> greetings from the future
11:21:54 <kmc> (8PM Sunday)
11:22:05 <kmc> I proved that x86 is Turing complete ish with no registers
11:22:31 <kmc> writeup forthcoming
11:23:49 <kmc> "Death under ptrace" is a good name for a manpage section or a band
11:30:16 <olsner> and with which definition of no registers?
11:31:55 <myname> so, the opposite of "move only"?
11:32:08 <Slereah> I would gladly pay you tuesday for a register todat
11:32:12 <int-e> I'd read "-ish" as the usual restriction on addressable main memory, but I'm also curious about which registers are left. Can't do much without rip and rsp ...
11:32:53 <int-e> and what about various control registers (eg for paging)?
11:32:54 <Slereah> If you have an infinite memory
11:33:02 <int-e> then it's not x86 :)
11:33:06 <Slereah> Can you access every part of it with x86?
11:33:19 <Slereah> Because the addresses are limited, no?
11:33:23 <int-e> Slereah: you can build a tape head for it
11:33:49 <int-e> x86 is certainly big enough for a UTM, given the right peripheral(s) :)
11:34:31 <Slereah> The right peripheral is "an infinite device"
11:36:55 <kmc> I haven't written out the exact rules yet but basically no instruction is allowed to depend on the contents of "normal" user registers i.e. rax rcx rdx rbx rsi rdi rsp (yes) rbp r8-r15, x87 and xmm/ymm/zmm/qmm/bumm/dumm/glumm
11:37:06 <kmc> or the condition codes in eflags
11:38:58 <kmc> you're allowed to depend on the control registers, debug registers, segment selectors, etc. to provide a sane flat memory model, but shouldn't write to them to do anything tricky
11:39:59 <kmc> (mostly you can't from userspace)
11:40:35 <kmc> and yes you are allowed to have an instruction pointer ;P
11:42:50 <kmc> x86 lets you do a memory-indirect jump, i.e. load the word from a specified fixed address into %rip
11:42:53 <kmc> and this turns out to be vital
11:43:11 <kmc> oh I think I'm disallowing %rip-relative memory addressing too, although I haven't thought of a situation where it would be useful
11:43:17 <int-e> hmm. how about an rip-relative bitset ;-)
11:43:46 <kmc> I think the main challenge in this subset is moving data around
11:44:11 <kmc> since to my knowledge there's no instruction which does a memory-memory move without any register involvement
11:46:12 <kmc> anyway i have a solution for compiling brainfuck and I will write it up sometime when I'm not incredibly jet-lagged
11:47:34 <kmc> it does use self-modifying code (but of course the restrictions must hold for every instruction actually executed, and not just the ones present statically)
11:49:12 <kmc> (which I hope to demonstrate using a ptrace thingy that sets all those registers to zero after every instruction)
11:50:17 <kmc> compiling from subleq or something like that might have been easier
11:52:43 <int-e> ah, bts was the instruction I had in mind.
11:56:50 <kmc> my ptrace(2) says "PTRACE_SYSEMU, PTRACE_SYSEMU_SINGLESTEP (since Linux 2.6.14)… These requests are currently supported only on x89."
11:56:56 <kmc> x89: it's three better
11:57:30 <Jafet> Could be the 00089
11:57:31 <int-e> hmm, it says x86 here
11:58:19 <kmc> https://github.com/mkerrisk/man-pages/commits/d2ea1bd4bd128bc2a57f9ae8e677689a4d24a200
11:58:31 <kmc> or rather https://github.com/mkerrisk/man-pages/commit/d2ea1bd4bd128bc2a57f9ae8e677689a4d24a200
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14:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> the latin word for clitoris, so obscene that it appears exactly once in surviving literary texts, also means... gridiron: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/landica
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15:39:39 <Bike> fizzie: aight. just, wondering how much microotimization is hould bother trying, that's all
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16:05:29 <quintopia> how does the words command work again
16:07:57 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
16:12:30 <fizzie> HackEgo: You're kind of messy with all that whitespace.
16:12:53 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] options: -l, --list list valid datasets -d, --debug debugging output -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining multiple Markov models; this has the effect of making larger datasets more influential -o, --target-offset change the target length offset used in the word generati
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19:28:00 <kmc> now i'm learning how to say "clitoris" in all the languages of the world
19:28:03 <kmc> could be useful
19:33:14 <oklopol> (well _some_ say klitoris)
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19:41:40 <kmc> google can't handle that but suggests "pimppi nappula" and translates it as "pussy button" so... okay
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19:42:47 <zzo38> Do you intend to speak all languages of the world? That would be difficult.
19:44:21 <Taneb> Aaaaaaaah how do you do reduction formulae?
19:46:17 <zzo38> What reduction formulae?
19:47:01 <Bike> only speaking all the clitori of the world, zzo
19:49:10 <oklopol> btw do these have to be _existing_ words?
19:52:03 <kmc> google doesn't know that one either!!
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20:09:50 <fizzie> Can't say I've ever heard anyone use the words oklopol mentions.
20:10:10 <fizzie> (But they're certainly plausible.)
20:10:19 <kmc> how does the second one work
20:11:16 <kmc> (btw my initial comment was a response to P_H not just something I decided to do immediately on waking up)
20:15:45 <fizzie> Try "häpy nyppylä" in Google Translate.
20:15:48 <fizzie> It's sort of related to that.
20:17:01 <kmc> that makes me think of the mons pubis and not the clitoris
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20:26:00 <fizzie> That would be "häpykumpu". The connotations of the word "nyppylä"/"nypykkä" indicate a small thing.
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20:28:12 <fizzie> For the record, "häpykieli" is (alongside the already-mentioned "klitoris") the official word. For some reason.
20:29:49 <kmc> "kieli" means... tongue?
20:36:27 <Taneb> (is it bad all I can see in these words are "happy nipple" and "happy camper" and "happy clearly"?)
20:37:53 <kmc> yes that's bad because it implies that regular nipples aren't happy
20:38:35 <Taneb> My nipples are quite sad right now
20:46:49 <zzo38> Is there such a sound synthesis as "filter modulation"?
20:53:05 <quintopia> how do i determine the what size a file will be printed at?
20:53:20 <zzo38> quintopia: What file?
20:53:33 <quintopia> this printer take 1200 input dpi, so what is the pixel dimensions of a 2"x2" jpg?
20:54:46 <zzo38> It would seem like 2400 but I don't know if the file has its own DPI
20:55:50 <zzo38> I don't know if JPEG supports that or not.
20:56:07 <zzo38> However, ImageMagick does support that.
21:00:53 <kmc> i've had some success opening things in Gimp and explicitly setting the DPI before printing
21:01:36 <zzo38> kmc: I know that ImageMagick can do that too, although I have never actually tried it.
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21:14:27 <shachaf> elliott: Is lambdabot on a new server?
21:15:20 <int-e> shachaf: yes. mine.
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21:19:53 <shachaf> You're running lambdabot instead of elliott now? Or just your server?
21:20:17 <int-e> I'm running it. Elliot more or less talked me into taking over. :)
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21:21:02 <shachaf> Oh. I didn't see it mentioned in #-ops.
21:21:47 <int-e> That's probably because I'm blissfully unaware of that channel :)
21:21:58 <Taneb> Wow, has lambdabot changed hands twice this year now?
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21:50:25 <kmc> how can america claim to be a world leader in anything when we don't even properly clean our butts after pooping
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22:08:56 <Slereah> http://img.lulz.net/src/lwCF9Lu.jpg
22:10:19 <int-e> Turing didn't deserve that.
22:11:02 <int-e> (Make it a Bill Gates quote and I'll probably laugh. ;-) )
22:12:17 <Slereah> http://img.lulz.net/src/einstien4.jpg
22:12:24 <Taneb> Make it a picture of Bill Gates but keep the text and I'd be quite amused (for the first one)
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22:46:18 <HackEgo> olist 929: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
22:46:34 <ais523> I'll be shocked if someone else got there first, given that I checked a few hours ago and it wasn't up
22:55:29 <zzo38> Currently the Digi-RGB specification has no "standard resolution"; perhaps I should mention 320x240 at 30 fps or something like that as a mode which all Digi-RGB displays are expected to support, so that a video card can use it when there is no other modes available.
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23:11:36 <fizzie> To comment on a discussion that finished hours ago, base JPEG standard does not support encoding the "physical size" (or resolution) of an image, but (widely supported) extensions (JFIF, IPTC, ...) do.
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23:15:06 <zzo38> DoubleFuck could even be extended to 32 tapes by using the low 3-bits of a byte for the command and high 5-bits for the tape number.
23:15:44 <kmc> quite the name for a language
23:16:11 <ion> I guess i’ll link this here, too. “Testing whether you can safely sh-quote any byte string (consisting of no null bytes) by substituting ' with '\'' and adding ' on either side. Works in bash, dash, mksh, posh, zsh. Fails in csh, ksh, lksh, pdksh.” https://gist.github.com/ion1/7405148
23:16:48 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/BVHH -- that's from a couple of random example .jpg files in ~/tmp/
23:17:36 <fizzie> One had the resolution in Exif metadata, one in JFIF, and one redundantly in all three of JFIF, Exif and XMP.
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23:30:51 <oerjan> !run echo "t'est" | sed 's/'\''/&\\&&'
23:30:57 <oerjan> `run echo "t'est" | sed 's/'\''/&\\&&'
23:30:59 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: unterminated `s' command
23:31:05 <oerjan> `run echo "t'est" | sed 's/'\''/&\\&&/g'
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23:34:09 <kmc> that's a nice example of using quickcheck to test something that isn't haskell code
23:34:30 <kmc> i always used '"'"' instead of '\'' but the latter is probably clearer
23:34:53 <kmc> 'but it'"'"'s so much fun'
23:35:06 <ion> Either is fine, '\'' is just shorter.
23:36:01 <ion> Disk space and bandwidth is really expensive after all.
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23:38:34 <kmc> i don't know, \ might weigh more than ""
23:41:53 <^v> i dont know much about haskell, but once its compiled i dont think it matters
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23:45:21 <oerjan> `run echo ''\'' | sed '\''h;s/'\''\'\'''\''/&\\&&/g;s/^/echo '\''\'\'''\''/;G;s/\n//;'\''' | sed 'h;s/'\''/&\\&&/g;s/^/echo '\''/;G;s/\n//;'
23:45:23 <HackEgo> echo ''\'' | sed '\''h;s/'\''\'\'''\''/&\\&&/g;s/^/echo '\''\'\'''\''/;G;s/\n//;'\''' | sed 'h;s/'\''/&\\&&/g;s/^/echo '\''/;G;s/\n//;'
23:46:17 <oerjan> `run echo ''\'' | sed '\''h;s/'\''\'\'''\''/&\\&&/g;s/^/`run echo '\''\'\'''\''/;G;s/\n//;'\''' | sed 'h;s/'\''/&\\&&/g;s/^/`run echo '\''/;G;s/\n//;'
23:46:19 <HackEgo> `run echo ''\'' | sed '\''h;s/'\''\'\'''\''/&\\&&/g;s/^/`run echo '\''\'\'''\''/;G;s/\n//;'\''' | sed 'h;s/'\''/&\\&&/g;s/^/`run echo '\''/;G;s/\n//;'
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01:44:05 <quintopia> anyone here know of a good online collaborative mind-mapping app that lets you make full on graphs (not just trees)?
01:51:51 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know of any at all, sorry. What are you intending to make?
01:57:50 <oerjan> sorry, those are outlawed to prevent evil ai takeover.
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02:27:17 <quintopia> zzo38: i want to map all of human knowledge down into learnable chunks
02:29:12 <zzo38> quintopia: That would be really difficult, I think.
02:34:06 <quintopia> zzo38: well, i'll have to hire some people to do it for me
02:36:30 <zzo38> Yes, a tool would help even if you are making something else.
02:37:09 <Bike> how do you map down. usually i just map, without a particular direction
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04:07:17 <tswett> Okay, okay, I've got it.
04:08:01 <zzo38> What have you got now?
04:09:03 <tswett> We can claim that no set is bigger than the set of all natural numbers, as long as we deny that this fact entails that there's a mapping from the set of all natural numbers onto any arbitrary set.
04:09:57 <zzo38> How can you deny that?
04:10:47 <zzo38> Maybe it is possible, but in what mathematical models is that possible?
04:11:03 <tswett> Every first-order theory that admits infinite models admits countable models.
04:11:42 <tswett> Meaning there's a countable model of ZFC. And in a countable model of ZFC, all infinite sets are the same "size", in some sense, even though they have different cardinalities in the model.
04:15:35 <zzo38> Do you have example, please?
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04:29:54 <zzo38> What kind of sense is the same "size" even though they have different cardinalities
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04:46:00 <zzo38> Can you explain it please?
04:48:58 <oerjan> it's rather trivial: you have a model of ZFC inside ZFC. by the inner logic of the model, the sets don't have the same cardinality because the model doesn't contain any bijection between them. but the whole model is a countable set in the outer ZFC, which therefore has such a bijection which is not inside the model.
04:50:02 <oerjan> so all the sets of the inner model are finite or countable from the viewpoint of the outer ZFC.
04:51:06 <oerjan> (technically the outer theory needs to be ZFC+"ZFC is consistent", i think)
04:51:51 <oerjan> (to be sure such an inner model exists)
04:52:18 <elliott> they should use that axiom all the time in ZFC.
04:53:02 <zzo38> elliott: But then it isn't really just plain ZFC, isn't it?
04:54:00 <oerjan> elliott: the advanced users (e.g. grothendieck) tend to use large cardinality axioms for this
04:54:34 <zzo38> What are "large cardinality axioms"?
04:54:38 <oerjan> but by godel's completeness theorem, just "ZFC is consistent" is what you need for a first-order model.
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04:55:07 <oerjan> zzo38: axioms that say that certain enormous cardinalities exist. this tends to imply thinks even stronger than consistency of ZFC.
04:55:37 <shachaf> i once went to a talk about that
04:55:48 <shachaf> i think lexande is an expert in all those things
04:56:28 <oerjan> e.g. strongly inaccessible cardinals is one kind, which iiuc imply that not only do you have models, but in the model sets are still represented as their set of elements in the outer theory.
04:57:32 <kmc> the immigration & security checks to enter Republic of Korea from United States of America are nothing compared to the checks for entering Samsung Digital City from Republic of Korea
04:57:46 <lexande> oerjan: yeah, just having set models of ZFC isn't very strong at all by the standards of large cardinal assumptions
04:57:55 <oerjan> (basically the sets smaller than the smallest inaccessible cardinal are a model in the most intuitive way)
04:57:58 <lexande> indeed it's just about the weakest you'd consider
04:58:01 <Sgeo> iirc there's some theorem about problems if you have "These axioms are consistent" as one of your axioms
04:58:06 <lexande> but it certainly implies CON(ZFC)
04:58:14 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6b's_theorem
04:58:18 <kmc> shachaf: I think I might be in Samsung
04:59:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes that's godel's second incompleteness theorem
05:00:10 <kmc> they have effective control of this territory
05:00:32 <lexande> Sgeo: yes, but "there are set models of ZFC" is an extra axiom on top of ZFC
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05:01:06 <lexande> so once you have that, you can happily prove ZFC itself is consistent, though the extra axiom might not be
05:01:35 <lexande> if you have inaccessible cardinals then you have lots of set models of ZFC, and CON^n(ZFC) for any reasonable n, etc
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05:04:45 <lexande> and that's still pretty small by the standards of large cardinal properties
05:04:47 <lexande> http://cantorsattic.info/Upper_attic
05:05:56 <oerjan> ah the kunen inconsistency, i recall seeing that mentioned.
05:06:40 <oerjan> is that list totally ordered :P
05:07:01 <lexande> uh, well each of the entries on that list potentially defines a proper class of cardinals
05:07:11 <lexande> but it's ordered by how big the smallest in the given class is
05:07:47 <lexande> and yeah, every time you come up with one of these, you don't know if it's consistent
05:08:17 <lexande> and you can only appeal to even larger cardinal assumptions for proof of its consistency, which isn't much comfort
05:09:15 <lexande> and yeah, Reinhardt defined a large cardinal which turned out to be inconsistent with ZFC (though maybe not with ZF)
05:10:03 <lexande> but anything on that list might be inconsistent
05:10:08 <lexande> indeed ZFC itself might be inconsistent
05:10:38 <zzo38> I don't really like axiom of choice anyways, although maybe ZF + axiom of dependent choice restricted to pointed sets; does that work?
05:11:25 <lexande> zzo38: cardinalities are a mess without choice
05:12:32 <zzo38> lexande: A mess in what way, and do some weaker axioms do anything with it?
05:12:42 <oerjan> without choice, cardinalities are not always comparable; this is equivalent.
05:13:15 <lexande> you don't even have |A×A|=A without choice
05:13:42 <zzo38> Well, I am not so sure that they should be always comparable and all of that stuff anyways
05:14:02 <lexande> also does everybody know the story about that?
05:14:34 <oerjan> i don't remember on the spot whether i know it
05:15:22 <zzo38> Even if you aren't using ZFC doesn't imply ZF + not axiom of choice, though, I think!
05:15:31 <oerjan> wait, is this that "an equivalence between two obviously X statements isn't interesting" story
05:16:12 <lexande> Tarski proved that "|A×A|=|A| for all infinite sets A" was equivalent to the axiom of choice, and tried to publish this theorem in Comptes Rendus.
05:16:40 <lexande> It was refereed by Frechet and Lebesgue.
05:16:42 <lexande> Both wrote letters rejecting the article. Fréchet wrote that an implication between two well known truths is not a new result. And Lebesgue wrote that an implication between two false statements is of no interest. Tarski said that he never again submitted a paper to the Comptes Rendus.
05:18:47 <oerjan> clearly this is something that should happen more often.
05:20:47 <zzo38> Neither of those rejections seem valid to me since they aren't necessarily going to be known true or false; axiom of choice is not used in all systems anyways! So, such thing still can be a new result and can be of interest, I think. Even if they are false statements.
05:21:42 <zzo38> But I don't really agree with the axiom of choice anyways, nor with the other statement necessarily, either.
05:24:52 <oerjan> zzo38: of course they weren't valid, that's why the story has become an anecdote.
05:28:06 <oerjan> this happened at a time when the idea that there was only one set of truths in mathematics was coming crashing down, but neither reviewer had realized it, even though they had made inconsistent conclusions within the mess.
05:30:02 <lexande> zzo38: yes, thatsthejoke.jpg
05:31:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1654
05:32:54 <shachaf> kmc: still waiting on zzo38_ebooks
05:36:39 <zzo38> The joke is a JPEG picture?
05:36:59 <HackEgo> *poof* <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
05:41:32 <oerjan> because i don't like you deleting that
05:41:56 <shachaf> it is not a good quote for the quote list
05:42:56 <zzo38> Maybe there should be an option to hide quotations without renumbering the rest, and an option to tell it whether or not to include hidden quotations in a search.
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05:51:08 <shachaf> no, it's just quoting an internet comic strip
05:51:23 <oklopol> yeah, zzo38 quoting an internet comic strip
05:52:56 <zzo38> I think the quotation came from elsewhere and they quoted the comic strip, perhaps.
05:53:10 <zzo38> (But I do not remember.)
05:56:26 <oklopol> http://cantorsattic.info/Upper_attic is some crazy shit
05:56:59 <oklopol> http://cantorsattic.info/Totally_indescribable#totally_indescribable lol?
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06:00:07 <elliott> oklopol: they can't be described.
06:02:30 <oklopol> uhttp://cantorsattic.info/Subtle#Subtle_cardinal Weakly ineffable cardinals are limits of totally indescribable cardinals. [1] ([3] for proof)
06:03:04 <oerjan> and of course huge cardinals is a specific term.
06:03:16 <oklopol> i'm fine with them being actually indescribable, but then i wonder what that proof looks like.
06:05:34 <oerjan> it's like, whoa, you know
06:06:52 <oklopol> "Whenever the context-sensitive language corresponding to the set of finite configurations cannot be described by a context-free or simpler grammar, the problem of recognizing words in the language is PSPACE-complete with respect to the lengths of these words (eg. [28])."
06:08:46 <oerjan> this must be something about finite configurations whatever that is, because there are certainly context-sensitive languages in between context-free and PSPACE-complete
06:09:18 <oerjan> (e.g. anything theta(n^k) for k > 3)
06:10:15 <oklopol> also he says the language of the limit set of a CA can in general be Pi^0_1, which he then refers to as properly RE, and type 0.
06:10:38 <oerjan> well, assuming P != PSPACE, of course.
06:10:41 <oklopol> oerjan: this is about the limit sets of cellular automata, and [28] is a standard complexity theory reference
06:11:32 <oklopol> this paper is like 60 pages, it contains one proof, phrased as "it seems X that because Y"
06:11:46 <oklopol> "it seems that X because Y"
06:13:57 <oerjan> seemingly X swimmingly Y
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07:13:24 <kmc> does JFIF support any codecs other than JPEG
07:13:32 <kmc> JFIF / EXIF
07:17:52 <shachaf> "Formally, the Exif and JFIF standards are incompatible. This is because both specify that their particular application segment (APP0 for JFIF, APP1 for Exif) must be the first in the image file. In practice, many programs and digital cameras produce files with both application segments included. This will not affect the image decoding for most decoders, but poorly designed JFIF or Exif parsers may not recognise the file properly."
07:18:13 <shachaf> i like how standard-compliant is poorly designed
07:21:07 <fizzie> Postel's law and all that.
07:25:04 <kmc> few things make me angrier than postel's law
07:29:13 <kmc> the robot-toilet in Samsung Digital City has a warning not to smoke while you're sitting on it
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07:32:26 <kmc> there are, like, six different reasons for me not to smoke while sitting on the robot toilet
07:32:32 <kmc> the warning is just one of them
07:32:42 <oerjan> kmc: does it make you go postel
07:34:00 <oerjan> kmc: how many of those allow you to sit on the robot toilet in the first place
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07:37:18 <oerjan> @ask ^v why do you keep badgering us
07:52:11 <zzo38> It is not only I who hates the layout syntax of Haskell and Python (at least in Haskell it can be disabled). So does Yin Wang (someone who also discussed the call/cc "Yin-Yang Puzzle", and is linked from Wikipedia for this purpose).
07:52:48 <kmc> i do not hate haskell layout, but i do deny it my essence
07:52:52 <kmc> zzo38: what's so bad about it, tho
07:57:22 <zzo38> kmc: Some of the things are those they describe in there.
07:58:11 <zzo38> One thing mentioned there is that a single keystroke can make the program wrong.
07:58:42 <zzo38> That is different from my own reason which is that it confuses the syntax a lot, unnecessarily.
07:59:13 <zzo38> For actual tree structures, with one record per line, layout syntax does work, but still isn't necessarily best way.
07:59:25 <zzo38> However, actual programs aren't quite like that, for various reasons, nor should they be.
07:59:50 <kmc> a single keystroke can make the program wrong in a lot of other ways, too
08:00:13 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is true, I know; also, it isn't the reason I use anyways like I said.
08:01:22 <zzo38> Such a thing isn't really much of a problem with programming in Haskell, though, since you can use non-layout mode if you prefer. (You can even mix layout and non-layout in one file, although I do not recommend this.)
08:06:15 <kmc> i mean, granted, "there are other ways to have bugs" is a shitty (and depressingly common) argument against a feature which prevents bugs
08:06:34 <kmc> but my experience with Haskell is that bugs due to bad layout, which also pass the typechecker, are very rare
08:06:55 <kmc> (but also, bugs that hit the typechecker aren't free, and it takes experience to recognize when one has occured due to bad layout)
08:07:05 <kmc> a Haskell IDE which draws in ghostly { ; } for you would be really cool
08:07:37 <elliott> but the point of layout is that it's visually obvious...
08:07:46 <elliott> like, you might as well just use non-layout syntax then
08:08:12 <zzo38> Yes, due to the typechecker it does do this, which Python doesn't.
08:08:59 <shachaf> kmc: People have used that as an argument when trying to figure out what syntax for applicative-do should be like.
08:09:14 <shachaf> There have been various strange proposals.
08:10:05 <kmc> elliott: well you could turn it on specifically when you're learning the layout rules, or when you hit a bug that you suspect is due to bad layout
08:10:24 <kmc> it could even use a different bgcolor for every layout block!!!! like some scheme editors
08:10:30 <zzo38> I really don't like all that built-in do-notation and stuff and think macro-syntax should be used instead.
08:12:02 <zzo38> kmc: All of those IDE ideas have been discussed in Yin Wang's article, actually. (They also mentioned "syntax considered harmful"; I partially agree with that and think that macro-syntax is a better idea anyways, which also avoids some of these problems)
08:12:19 <zzo38> (They didn't mention macro-syntax, though. I did.)
08:12:56 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of Rust's macro system?
08:13:44 <zzo38> kmc: I have looked at the documentation but don't really know much about how good it is; I haven't paid a lot of attention to Rust in general so I don't really know a lot about that.
08:13:55 <kmc> fair 'nuff
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08:21:32 <zzo38> (And there are a few other Haskell programmers who prefer non-layout, too. But like I said it doesn't really matter much since using one or the other style doesn't prevent a module from being imported.)
08:25:17 <zzo38> I don't know if adding macro-syntax to the existing system would cause problems with layout syntax. If so, it could still be used in non-layout mode only, or possibly you could allow user-defined keywords to specify if they introduce a block, and if so check if there is a { after it whenever it occurs.
08:27:51 <FireFly> My (limited) understanding is that the parser emits { ; } block tokens based on indents/dedents, so I wouldn't think it'd impact macros
08:30:14 <oerjan> FireFly: it also emits }'s on syntax errors
08:31:43 <oerjan> that is, if ending a block in a spot can make it parse the next token, it will do so.
08:36:26 <zzo38> Yes, I think it does that too
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09:03:11 <zzo38> I thought of something, which is, if it can be made a kind of sequent calculus that can have not only multiple sequents above the line but also supports multiple sequents below the line?
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09:17:30 <kmc> zzo38: so a proof would be a DAG rather than a tree?
09:21:05 <kmc> I am skeptical of macro systems where you aren't just running normal code at compile time
09:22:10 <kmc> because sometimes you just need that, and macros are a feature of last resort, so do you really want a last resort macro system and another almost-last-resort system
09:25:03 <zzo38> I don't really think macros should be a feature of last resort.
09:25:18 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I suppose so, then a proof will be a DAG.
09:26:56 <kmc> and I'm skeptical of this idea that macro systems absolutely need to enforce hygeine, as opposed to providing hygeine tools for the macro author
09:27:27 <kmc> it seems like when I write a macro in C or Haskell or Rust, often as not I *do* want to do something tricky with binders
09:27:39 <zzo38> kmc: I, too; I think it should provide hygeine rather than enforce it
09:28:02 <kmc> I'm sure I would feel differently if I programmed in Scheme but, well
09:28:37 <kmc> I think part of why macros aren't a feature of last resort in Lisps is that you don't have a static type system anyway, so you don't lose as much by abstracting on the syntactic level rather than the semantic level
09:29:42 <zzo38> I do not think macros should ever be only a feature of last result. My opinion is that do-notation in Haskell should rather be defined as a macro in Haskell, instead of built-in, too.
09:29:59 <kmc> zzo38: but abstracting on the semantic level is so much nicer
09:30:02 <kmc> easier to reason about
09:30:13 <zzo38> Also consider Forth, where the compile-time and run-time are really the same thing, and macros are really just programs.
09:30:21 <kmc> you can think more about what things are rather than how they're spelled
09:30:22 <zzo38> kmc: You can do both!
09:30:50 <kmc> zzo38: yes, but I think the phase distinction is useful, even though it should be possible to nest (so you can compile code at runtime, and run code at "compile time")
09:30:52 <zzo38> (And many standard macros can be defined in a standard library so that you don't normally need to define your own, if this would help, too!)
09:31:10 <kmc> the phase distinction is useful because it's where type checking happens
09:31:47 <kmc> (I don't actually care if machine code is generated there or later; some languages with such a phase distinction for 'static' checking might still benefit greatly from a JIT implementation)
09:32:56 <zzo38> Yes, depending on the programming language in use, such a phase distinction would be very useful.
09:34:02 <kmc> zzo38: your DAG proof idea is interesting; do you have an idea of a system which would be nice to express that way?
09:35:07 <zzo38> kmc: I don't actually know that.
09:36:35 <kmc> also there has been discussion of a Template Haskell dialect where the type of a metaprogram includes the type of the program it produces
09:36:39 <kmc> and I think MetaML works this way
09:37:07 <kmc> but I think most of the practical examples of useful macros can't be typed, then
09:38:33 <zzo38> I have seen about Template Haskell with typed metaprograms; still is useful even to have typeless metaprograms too though. But being typed may also help in some ways, and may allow some additional kinds of macros to be made in a few cases.
09:38:59 <kmc> how would it allow additional kinds of macros?
09:39:41 <zzo38> I am not sure, but depending on what other features are implemented there might be a possibility, or maybe not; I don't know for sure either way.
09:41:15 <kmc> if you can think of an example, let me know!
09:42:16 <kmc> Servo already has a number of metaprograms and they are mostly for converting specification formats (e.g. WebIDL) into executable code
09:42:23 <kmc> none of which can be done within the Rust macro system :(
09:44:39 <kmc> and that kind of thing won't admit typing metaprograms by their output
09:46:23 <zzo38> In that case then it does seem Rust macro system does have some problems. Perhaps just allowing macros to call executable Rust programs at compile-time, would that help at all?
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10:32:46 <Taneb> Would I be correct to say matrix multiplication forms a category?
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10:36:01 <Taneb> Where the category arrows are matrices and objects are dimensons
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11:15:47 <kmc> @tell Taneb neat, I suppose it does and it would be isomorphic to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_of_vector_spaces , or equivalent in the sense of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_of_categories anyway
11:16:50 <kmc> "For example, the dimension theorem for vector spaces says that the isomorphism classes in K-Vect correspond exactly to the cardinal numbers, and that K-Vect is equivalent to the subcategory of K-Vect which has as its objects the free vector spaces Kn, where n is any cardinal number."
11:20:46 <elliott> you'll invent categories if you try to extend monoids to be "typed" to support matrix multiplication
11:21:03 <kmc> i was going to say something about vector spaces of uncountably infinite dimension and aren't they super weird
11:21:58 <kmc> but then I remembered that functions A→K for an uncountable field K are such a vector space and seem nice and reasonable (as much as any uncountable thing can be nice)
11:22:46 <kmc> or even for a countably infinite field K
11:23:47 <kmc> er no, it depends on the cardinality of A not K, I think?
11:23:50 * kmc <--- not a mathematician
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11:26:03 <kmc> @tell zzo38 yes that would help; Rust already has a thing called "syntax extensions" which are invoked the same way as macros but can run arbitrary Rust code, unfortunately you can't define a new one except by editing the compiler
11:26:44 <kmc> @tell zzo38 also there are other problems with macros such as, they can't be exported from a compilation unit, and the scoping / module exporting is different from everything else, but these are seen as bugs to be fixed
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12:21:38 <Taneb> kmc: yeah, I realised it in the context of their relation to set relation compositions
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13:45:58 <boily> good chmæric mœrning!
13:48:51 <boily> fizzie: what were we discussing concerning a possible zeta? I kinda had a long weekend (including, but notwithstanding, missile launches)
13:49:25 <fizzie> The list popular Adobe passwords.
13:51:17 <fizzie> It might not be as good a fit as, say, general word frequencies, which are the canonical Zipf's law example, but still.
13:55:01 <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
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13:57:42 <ais523_> you know how algol 68 allows spaces in identifiers?
13:57:51 <ais523_> algol 60 also allows spaces in identifiers, but it's space-insensitive
13:57:58 <ais523_> so "foobar" and "foo bar" are the same identifier
13:58:16 <ais523_> if you want an identifier with the same name as a keyword, you add internal spaces to mark it as not being the keyword
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14:00:40 <ais523_> haha: Algol 60 defines the meanings of "true" and "false" as "obvious"
14:02:49 <Jafet> The simple days gone by.
14:02:52 <int-e> what about file_not_found?
14:04:06 <boily> fungot: how did you become the Best Bot? how did you overcome your Error (1) phase?
14:04:07 <fungot> boily: come on now, it is installed. ( require-extension ( srfi 1 13 14)) instead
14:04:18 <boily> fungot: a good tip. I'll keep that in mind.
14:04:18 <fungot> boily: except in university oo projects page on toreun.org, but i
14:04:20 <ais523_> aha, algol 60 defines whitespace as not existing and freely usable anywhere
14:04:45 <ais523_> hmm... sorear's interesting interpretation of the INTERCAL manual may actually be correct
14:04:56 <ais523_> he interpreted it as permitting whitespace within keywords, which is something that simply hadn't occured to me at all
14:05:12 <ais523_> but at least one other language that was around at the time did that too...
14:06:00 <int-e> PL EAS EDO N'T DO THAT!
14:08:05 <boily> int-e: hi! were you `relcommed already? did you appear during the weekend?
14:08:19 <ais523_> int-e: that doesn't do what you expect
14:08:31 <ais523_> the DO ends the PLEASE DON'T and then starts a new command
14:08:41 <ais523_> so you get "PLEASE DON'T" (a no-op), followed by "DO THAT" (not a no-op)
14:08:50 <ais523_> I guess you wanted it parsed all as one statement?
14:14:06 <fizzie> boily: There's a library on multivariate Bernoulli distributions that I believe gets some "real use" on 0-1 data.
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14:15:31 <int-e> ais523_: I did, but I didn't really think about it :)
14:15:47 <int-e> boily: I guess I wasn't.
14:15:56 <ais523_> accidentally leaving a DO in a middle of a comment is an occupational hazard of INTERCAL
14:16:07 <int-e> boily: I've been here before, but this time lambdabot dragged me here :)
14:16:19 <ais523_> leaving disguised DOs in code intentionally to produce funny error messages is one of the joys
14:16:28 <ais523_> (even Donald Knuth has been caught doing it on occasion)
14:17:23 <int-e> my most notable intercal accomplishment is a rot13 filter (50 lines without using standard library.) ... and without comments :)
14:17:31 <fizzie> boily: (I believe there's also a related saying, something like "in the dark, all cats are Gaussian".)
14:17:48 <ais523_> oh, you're responsible for the rot13 in the pit? neat!
14:18:35 <int-e> nope, that's a different one
14:18:56 <ais523_> I guess I'm now duty-bound to add yours too, if it's appropriately licensed
14:19:04 <ais523_> because the pit is meant to be a collection of all known INTERCAL programs
14:19:14 <ais523_> (except CADIE, she's too independent-minded and also under the wrong license)
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14:21:13 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/myrot13.i (it's my code, do whatever you want with it. I'd put it in the public domain except that I can't.)
14:21:30 <ais523_> but I'll look at it later, if I remember
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14:28:40 <int-e> In any case, the most impressive Intercal program I know about is Ørjan's unlambda interpretet ( http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/intercal/ )
14:29:29 <ais523_> yeah, that was pretty mindblowing
14:29:38 <ais523_> oerjan isn't here right now, but he often hangs out in this channel
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14:47:47 <fizzie> "He's as much of a fixture here as the channel's actual fixtures."
14:47:57 <fizzie> I guess technically speaking the channel has no actual fixtures.
14:48:33 <ais523_> should we invite chanserv in, so that it has one?
14:49:28 <Bike> we should invite a lamp
14:50:19 <fizzie> A bot running on the Linux-Apache-MySQL-PHP platform?
14:50:50 <Bike> yes. and while we're at it, a chandelier
14:52:32 <fizzie> A... C-Haskell-Apache-Netcat-Django-ELisp-INTERCAL-Erlang-R monstrosity?
14:54:09 <ais523_> (also, one of my first duties at work was to write a program to perform work previously performed by an elisp CGI script that also involved manual intervention)
14:54:16 <ais523_> (I rewrote from scratch in Perl)
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15:05:32 <lambdabot> *** "fixture" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
15:05:32 <lambdabot> n 1: an object firmly fixed in place (especially in a household)
15:05:34 <lambdabot> 2: a regular patron; "an habitue of the racetrack"; "a bum who
15:05:36 <lambdabot> is a Central Park fixture" [syn: {regular}, {habitue},
15:05:48 <fizzie> oerjan: an habitue of the racetrack.
15:06:25 <fizzie> (I think it's kind of like a hobbit.)
15:08:40 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
15:08:50 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
15:09:10 <HackEgo> corum clargoint chait loofefl slance exion penfut spassiol unct iistne
15:09:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | The most corum, clargoint chait you could ever loofefl your slance in. | Magnus! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
15:13:05 <boily> weird stuff happens with the /töpic, and I still haven't translated «Koirammekokaan ei lennä?» yet.
15:15:40 <fizzie> You can find a discussion on that in the logs.
15:16:08 <fizzie> (If you weren't there at the time.)
15:18:36 <boily> I found «""Pystyisiköhän koirammekokaan siihen?"», which satisfies me.
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15:27:26 <ion> Does/will even our dog not fly?
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15:33:33 <tswett> The translation I heard was "Not even our dog flies?"
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16:15:55 <coppro> I'm not aware of any. That could be interesting
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16:20:15 <pregunton1233> i speak a little bit of English. If someone has heard about something like that, or better ways to google it....¿?
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17:16:32 <olsner> kmc: so did you manage to prove x86 turing complete without registers?
17:16:45 <Bike> "sure, just use the MMU!"
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17:54:57 <boily> `pastlog muu muu muu
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17:55:49 <boily> I can't beleive there aren't any «muu muu muu» in the logs.
17:56:01 <int-e> well there are now
17:56:12 <olsner> boily: I can believe it
17:56:20 <HackEgo> 2013-02-08.txt:08:48:53: <ion> !run printf '%s\n' 'Ääretön omahyväisyys miehet menivät edestakaisin yli maapallolla heidän pikku asioista, seesteinen niiden varmuus niiden imperiumi yli asiasta. On mahdollista, että infusoria mikroskoopilla tekemään samoin.' | hyphenate.fi
17:56:33 <boily> olsner: you heathen!
17:56:38 <boily> ion: you speak Finnish?
17:58:22 <fizzie> It's not terribly uncommon, here.
17:59:39 <boily> I kinda noticed a slight tendency towards North Germanic languages and Finno-Ugric ones in this fine chännel.
18:00:06 <Bike> i am fond of english, yes
18:04:14 <fizzie> Are you a fondue of English, too?
18:04:31 <Bike> wouldn't that require boiling me alive
18:04:48 <olsner> fondues aren't usually boiling, are they?
18:04:55 <olsner> you would need to be melted though
18:05:09 <boily> fondues are best when only gently simmering.
18:05:11 <Bike> frankly i think i'm fine in my current collection of phases.
18:05:56 <boily> (♪ new quest ♪ find a nice place with shabushabu)
18:06:20 <olsner> Bike: you need to break free of your matrix of solidity
18:08:58 <mrhmouse> high leg flying shabu-shabu palace, yes.
18:10:16 * boily googles it, and dearly hopes that it's SFW. “I mean, high leg flying? What kind of place is that...”
18:11:02 <mrhmouse> it's SFW, as far as anime is SFW
18:11:29 <mrhmouse> assuming you even come across what I thought your were referencing
18:12:12 * boily round-house fshtucks mrhmouse with a cast-iron fondue pot
18:13:19 <olsner> mrhmouse: I think he may have been looking for a restaurant rather than an anime
18:14:37 <mrhmouse> olsner: I figured as much, but I felt the need to add to the absurdity of the conversation
18:15:38 <metasepia> Your divination: "Sojourning" to "Radiance"
18:16:12 <boily> olsner: you shall support mrhmouse in his Quest of the Absurd, as he will Shine onto It and express due resplendescence.
18:17:24 <mrhmouse> in the Word of our Absurd Father, fnord
18:19:42 <FireFly> In the word of fungot, fnord?
18:19:43 <fungot> FireFly: _and_ a few other people.) cliki-bot was written by a 70's fnord with all that pasta sauce... then they'd use their stack, they are by default hygenic, but can never know which.
18:20:36 <boily> quintopia: snow has come to Québec City this last weekend, and should appear on Montréal's surface soon. are you going to let a poor Canadian starve in the cold?
18:22:36 <mrhmouse> FireFly: fungot, addled be Thy Brain, fnord
18:22:37 <fungot> mrhmouse: yes, but nontheless you need to use exec with strings and 32/ 64 variants on ldc and some other stuff.
18:25:13 <quintopia> boily: sure. plenty of them. but not you.
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18:26:12 <^v> sorry, hexchat derp
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18:27:16 <fizzie> Hexchat, the official client of Hexham?
18:30:31 <FreeFull> What is irssi the official client of?
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18:52:18 <zzo38> Do you know how to make a sequent calculus where numbers that aren't divisible by four are theorems? I have done (while trying to do something else, which turns out to be equivalent).
18:53:52 <zzo38> Bike: I could have used a different number but I used four.
18:54:56 <lambdabot> kmc said 7h 28m 52s ago: yes that would help; Rust already has a thing called "syntax extensions" which are invoked the same way as macros but can run arbitrary Rust code, unfortunately you can't
18:54:56 <lambdabot> define a new one except by editing the compiler
18:54:56 <lambdabot> kmc said 7h 28m 11s ago: also there are other problems with macros such as, they can't be exported from a compilation unit, and the scoping / module exporting is different from everything else, but
18:54:56 <lambdabot> these are seen as bugs to be fixed
18:56:08 <mrhmouse> zzo38: in your calculus, is 0 divisible for four (strictly checking remainder)?
18:57:36 <mrhmouse> *by four. My mind is absent today.
18:58:16 <zzo38> mrhmouse: Yes; there is no way to prove zero in it.
18:58:40 <zzo38> What I have done is encode the rules for the subtraction game S(1,2,3), which is equivalent.
19:00:28 <mrhmouse> Do you have a link for the subtraction game? I'm not familiar with it and a search just turns up math resources for children.
19:00:56 <zzo38> Rules W1, W2, and W3 say that 1, 2, and 3 are axioms; you can win in one turn. Rules T1, T2, and T3 each have three sequents above the line for the three possible opponent's move after one of your moves.
19:01:32 <zzo38> mrhmouse: Did you try Wikipedia? Look at [[Nim]]
19:01:42 <zzo38> One of the subsections describes subtraction game.
19:04:19 <zzo38> The game isn't so difficult, but it makes the point of encoding in a sequent calculus in order to make theorems which are the numbers that aren't divisible by four.
19:18:29 <boily> in an alternative Universe, zzo38 would be a great glassperlenspiele player.
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19:20:41 <quintopia> there's a great episode of The Real Hustle about the subtraction game
19:33:18 <Taneb> Today for the first time I encountered a mormon
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19:33:26 <Taneb> Trying to convert me
19:34:41 <shachaf> Oh, so did I the other day.
19:35:09 <kmc> did it work
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19:35:59 <shachaf> they said i should go to mormon.org and it would make me really happy
19:36:03 <shachaf> i didn't go there until a few seconds ago
19:36:20 <kmc> did it work
19:36:28 <shachaf> i'm reasonably happy but i'm not sure whether it has to do with mormon.org
19:37:15 <kmc> reasonably < really
19:37:20 <kmc> false advertising
19:37:31 <shachaf> true but i didn't actually read the website
19:37:42 <kmc> does it work if you wget mormon.org
19:37:47 <kmc> what if you send HEAD instead of GET
19:38:04 <shachaf> hmm maybe they said www.mormon.org and i didn't use the www
19:38:10 <shachaf> i should've taken one of their cards
19:38:58 <kmc> aitch tee tee pee colon slash slash doubleyou doubleyou doubleyou dot mormon dot org
19:39:04 <kmc> slash robots dot text
19:39:29 <kmc> https://github.com/humans.txt
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19:40:10 <fizzie> I was hoping for advice on how to visit the site, not just names of dudes and dudettes.
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19:52:25 <int-e> Selfish doesn't have any repositories you can view.
19:53:30 <Bike> shachaf clearly went to the site the wrong way. try AOL keyword "mormon"
19:54:05 <boily> btw, I splat the languages from the Wisdom PDF into their own chapter.
19:54:50 <int-e> wisdom probability density function ... nice concept :)
19:55:16 * boily gently scuttles away from int-e
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19:56:37 <boily> int-e: if you haven't read the PDF available in the /topic yet, may I interest you in doing so? the Experience will be Enlightening ↑
19:57:03 <boily> I hate statistics. not as much as spiders, but I do.
19:57:26 <kmc> statistics is like a spider: it has 8 legs and it crawls into your mouth while you're sleeping
19:57:30 <boily> otoh, I got nothing against snakes, except when related to a CS book.
19:57:45 <kmc> have you read your TaPL today
19:57:55 <kmc> omg i told someone to read TaPL and they did!
19:58:01 <kmc> while sitting in a tent in rainy malaysia
19:58:07 <Bike> types and programming languages
19:58:08 <kmc> Types and Programmin' Languages
19:58:32 <Bike> i have a "read" copy in front of me right now in fact, which i will proceed to ignore in favor of writing about plastic models of sulfur hexafluoride
19:58:34 <boily> kmc: were you the one in rainy malaysia, or was it the someone?
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19:59:25 <kmc> the someone
20:06:03 <lambdabot> Duplicate binding in parallel list comprehension
20:06:41 <metasepia> Your divination: "Ground" to "Welling"
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20:29:05 <HackEgo> Oj742: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:37:27 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
20:40:16 <HackEgo> int-e: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:44:13 <boily> quintopia: you know therm?
20:44:33 -!- ^v has joined.
20:45:39 <quintopia> Oj742 has the second best warrior on the bfjoust hill right now
20:46:07 <Oj742> dat darn omnipotence...
20:47:28 <quintopia> of course, it was only third best until i made a slight change ... and the next change i make will put it back there...
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20:48:42 <quintopia> (i could easily beat omnipotence with space_hotel since omnipotence is hard-coded to beat space_hotel based on its decoy setup. shameless special-casing. but it doesn't bother me that much.)
20:49:28 <Taneb> bfjoist is something I have no talent for at all
20:49:48 <Taneb> Remember when werecatt appeared and suddenly dominated the hill
20:50:54 <boily> @tell werecatt when do you plan to dominate again?
20:51:54 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen werecatt ever
20:51:56 <Taneb> `seen werecatt ever
20:52:18 <Taneb> `seen david_werecatt ever
20:53:23 <Oj742> I think its spelled with only one 't'
20:54:03 <mrhmouse> f.. foiled. I'll show myself out
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20:54:58 <boily> fungot: can you translate from mrhmouse to French?
20:54:58 <fungot> boily: i like do better since it has a language called irp. this eventually made many people on scheme are you using?
20:55:20 <boily> would someöne please translate mrhmouse for me?
20:56:01 <boily> (meanwhile, there is an intense liquorice taste in my mouth.)
20:56:08 <int-e> "FOIL means First, Outside, Inside, Last."
20:56:30 <mrhmouse> I was making a terrible reference to the operation int-e is referring to
20:56:46 <int-e> i.e. the order of expansion in expressions with parentheses. (the things one learns when hanging out on math channels...)
20:56:50 <mrhmouse> it's a mnemonic schoolchildren learn
20:57:01 <olsner> boily: did you eat liquorice or do you e.g. have a brain disorder causing you to taste stuff?
20:57:02 <int-e> not in Germany ;-)
20:57:12 <boily> not in French Canada.
20:57:24 <mrhmouse> it's taught here, but that makes no difference
20:57:49 <boily> olsner: a cow orker likes it, and very sneakily gave me some. I don't have brain disorders. I am sane.
20:58:29 <int-e> (x + y) * (a - b) = (axe + aye) / e - (box + boy) / o
20:59:20 * boily duct tapes mrhmouse and int-e together
20:59:51 <Vorpal> boily, I like the phrase "cow orker" better than the actual phrase
21:00:49 <Vorpal> olsner, Speaking of liquorice, do you like it? What about salty "sweets"?
21:00:50 <boily> it wasn't a typo, sadly. I wish I had created it, tho. hth. twh. tdnh.
21:01:15 <boily> Vorpal: don't you dare steer the conversation towards salmiakki and its brethren.
21:01:23 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
21:01:36 <Vorpal> boily, what is salmiakki?
21:01:37 <olsner> Vorpal: I don't eat the salty kind, only the sweet (and not very often)
21:02:04 <Vorpal> I'm not a fan of liquorice. Nor do I like the salty Swedish "sweets"
21:02:26 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmiakki
21:02:42 <olsner> I like terva leijona though
21:03:02 <Vorpal> boily, oh right, saltlakrits, right
21:03:09 <Vorpal> Yeah it is terrible stuff
21:03:41 <boily> “... with tar flavouring.” you guys are completely insane.
21:03:47 <Vorpal> boily, no idea why anyone would like it, and I live in Sweden, where this stuff is somewhat common
21:04:16 <Taneb> boily, I can never remember which options to use to taste it
21:04:25 <Taneb> Is it -xf or -cf or what
21:04:57 <Vorpal> -xf is tar for extracting, -cf is for creation
21:05:05 <olsner> boily: that's finnish btw, it's *them* guys that are insane
21:05:14 <Vorpal> -cf archive.tar directory-to-tar
21:05:34 <olsner> Vorpal may or may not have missed the joke
21:05:35 <Bike> radar shows the joke has successfully been destroyed. good work, people. let's go home
21:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> I'm not a fan of liquorice. Nor do I like the salty Swedish "sweets"
21:06:29 <fizzie> Are you guys dissing our stuffs?
21:06:30 <boily> when we want something sweet, nothing beats http://www.recettes.qc.ca/recette/tarte-au-sucre-1168 . four cups of brown sugar!
21:06:43 <Vorpal> boily, Personally I'm quite fond of 70-90% chocolate though
21:06:45 <boily> fizzie: only unedible stuff.
21:06:50 <Vorpal> More than 90% is a bit too much
21:06:55 <fizzie> boily: Incidentally, you can get tar-flavoured ice cream at a couple of restaurants here.
21:06:58 <boily> Vorpal: nothing less than 90% for me. 99% is the best.
21:07:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i had to show some danes around my school a couple of years ago, they gave us various danish treats afterwards
21:07:08 <int-e> I'm not sure why UNIX spells 'cat' forward and 'rat' backward.
21:07:25 <boily> intercultural fternooner exchange!
21:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> they were so uniformly horrible that i can only assume they were picked to fuck with the foreigners
21:07:42 <nooodl> it also spells 'cat' backward!
21:07:47 <Bike> i like how there's an 'ar' separate from 'tar'
21:07:54 <Bike> "ar, but specifically for tapes"
21:07:58 <Vorpal> boily, And I like white chocolate at the other end of the spectrum (lets leave the discussion about whether that is chocolate for another time).
21:08:04 <Vorpal> Not much in between though
21:08:20 <olsner> I think ar is for, like, random-access archives
21:08:27 <fizzie> boily: http://www.ravintolaharald.fi/service.cntum?pageId=145900 "Sweet Endings" "HARALD’S TAR DELIGHT -- Homemade tar ice cream(whose secret recipe is closely guarded by Harald) served with pear compote, cinnamon-caramel sauce and crispy flatbread sticks."
21:08:32 <fizzie> boily: (It's a kind of terrible touristy place, but I think someone wrote a nice blog post about the ice cream once.)
21:08:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe they claim it is an acquired taste
21:08:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I guess that could just be a code name
21:08:46 <olsner> fizzie: is the tar ice cream any good?
21:09:05 * boily checks prices for a ticket to Finlandia...
21:09:07 <fizzie> olsner: Well, I mean, it's no chocolate. But it wasn't bad either.
21:09:11 <int-e> nooodl: I believe I've even used 'tac' once or twice ... :)
21:09:22 <fizzie> olsner: http://susan-stepney.blogspot.fi/2011/06/tar-ice-cream.html there you go.
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21:10:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess it could start from the last argument and then scan backwards, reading a chunk at a time
21:10:41 <fizzie> I believe the coreutils tac does something more clever if you give it a seekable file.
21:10:45 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: short of time travel, that's about the only thing it can do (on pipes)
21:10:47 <Vorpal> Then reverse each chunk
21:10:53 <fizzie> But buffering is involved for pipes, sure.
21:10:57 <Vorpal> Yeah assuming it is seakable
21:11:11 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: that's how toybox tac does it, at least
21:11:37 <Vorpal> nortti, toybox is a pretty terrible thing though
21:11:39 <boily> there are rumors of a seekable pipe from an outer eldritch dimension, that can tac without buffering from the True End of All Inputs.
21:11:52 <Vorpal> nortti, Like a half-arsed busybox clone
21:12:09 <Vorpal> Isn't toybox the one Android uses?
21:12:17 <fizzie> boily: I'd like to see a "tac | head" on that.
21:12:25 <boily> (hm. I have to expect to shell out about two grands to get myself shipped over to the Suomen Tasavalta.)
21:12:28 <int-e> the GNU 'tac' has a tac_seekable function, which hopefully does something clever :)
21:12:30 <Vorpal> nortti, Oh okay, easy to confuse those
21:12:48 <nortti> toybox is a busybox-like tools by the ex-maintainer of busybox, rob landley
21:12:50 <fizzie> boily: That sounds suspiciously expensive. Oh, I guess that's some Canadian fake money?
21:12:55 <nortti> intended to be cleaner version
21:13:10 <Vorpal> nortti, does it still use the kernel config system?
21:13:25 <Vorpal> Fair enough, there are a lot of options I guess
21:13:37 <boily> fizzie: our money may be fake, but at least it's well-designed. and it has the Queen of England on it!
21:13:45 <Vorpal> nortti, why it uses it or why I ask?
21:13:56 <fizzie> boily: Oh yes, I remember hearing it's very colorful.
21:14:18 <Vorpal> nortti, not a lot of projects uses it.
21:14:19 <boily> fizzie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_dollar
21:14:22 <HackEgo> 2013-01-18 02:52:09: <david_werecat> Hello
21:14:35 <nortti> busybox used it last time I built it, too
21:14:39 <boily> I'm eager to see the new 5 and 10$!
21:14:46 <Vorpal> nortti, the kernel, busybox, uclibc... That is about it that I know of
21:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i've checked the logs btw, aloril_ has been here for over a decade and has never spoken once
21:15:18 <fizzie> boily: I think it "only" cost something like a thousand EUR (1.4 kCAD) for me to get to Portland and back, and that's like almost in Canada.
21:15:28 <fizzie> ("kCAD" is probably a CAD program.)
21:15:38 <Vorpal> nortti, so how does toybox and busybox compare to each other from a feature completeness point of view?
21:15:48 <nortti> busybox has a shit-ton more
21:15:49 <Vorpal> Is toybox a drop-in replacement at this point?
21:15:55 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: nice.
21:16:14 <Vorpal> nortti, ignoring weird stuff like a built in micro-webserver in busybox?
21:16:37 <nortti> and df has yet to get '-h'
21:16:38 <Vorpal> Eh, that is kind of major yeah
21:16:47 <boily> fizzie: I only checked Air Canada, which is far from being the best option out there.
21:16:55 <Vorpal> nortti, what about color options to ls? I can't remember if busybox has that
21:17:21 <nortti> busybox has it, toybox does too
21:17:32 <fizzie> boily: Also I guess you can always mail yourself in a box?
21:17:32 <Vorpal> good, that makes it so much easier to work with
21:17:51 <Vorpal> nortti, what about binary sizes when built for equal features?
21:18:17 <quintopia> anyone here ever use mpmath in python?
21:18:18 <Vorpal> Eh well, I guess I'll keep an eye on it though
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21:18:26 <boily> fizzie: I could. I quintopia'd a box of cookies, and I'm marginally heavier than that, so I have experience.
21:18:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, sounds interesting, what does it do?
21:18:46 <nortti> but for my current config busybox is 512kB and toybox is 136kB
21:18:56 <boily> fizzie: checking prices on hotwire cuts the amount by half.
21:19:05 <quintopia> Vorpal: arbitrary precision complex-valued math
21:19:24 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh, so not MP as in multi *processor*
21:19:31 <Vorpal> Not so interested any more, sorry
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21:19:44 <quintopia> i like the idea of boily being only slightly heavier than a box of maple leaf cookies
21:19:54 <Bike> psh, what's the point without quaternions
21:20:20 <Vorpal> I should try to learn quaternions at some point
21:20:56 <nortti> Vorpal: I suggest you try it on some linux system you are comfortable hacking with. currently I'm running it on my main system and sometimes encounter stuff that blows up due to GNUisms
21:21:32 <Vorpal> nortti, well I doubt I will ever switch from GNU Bash as my interactive shell. I'm just to used to it's features and quirks
21:21:48 <Vorpal> quintopia, yeah that about covers it :P
21:21:51 <nortti> ah. I'm also running non-toybox shell
21:22:05 <nortti> because the current toybox shell is, to put it kindly, shit
21:22:09 <Vorpal> nortti, and tools for that matter
21:22:24 <Vorpal> nortti, I use weird non-standard options to tools out of convenience
21:23:07 <nortti> well, in that case, continue on with your gnu coreutils
21:23:10 <Vorpal> nortti, when I look at map 1p grep I get scared. There is no -L for example for files without matches. Something I used like 5 minutes ago
21:23:51 <nortti> oh, interesting. my grep manpage is from sbase
21:24:07 * nortti reminds itself to fix manpages sometime
21:24:10 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway on a modern system, the extra bloat in gnu coreutils doesn't really matter
21:24:37 <nortti> I mean that my grep(1)'s manpage is from suckless' sbase collection
21:24:46 <Vorpal> I have 16 GB RAM. I'm not going to run out just because true has a --help and a --version!
21:25:14 <Vorpal> Also this computer has like 4.5 TB storage in total, though a bit of that is tied up into RAID
21:25:17 <nortti> I, on the other hand, still have in active use a machine with 1MB of RAM
21:25:25 <Vorpal> That is just the internal storage
21:25:44 <nortti> I have 30GB HD, 20% used
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21:25:55 <Bike> poll: should i take a class in electric circuits, or a class in microcontrollers
21:25:59 <Vorpal> nortti, The least advanced system I have that i actually use is my RPi. Coreutils run fine there too with 512 MB RAM
21:26:00 <olsner> every page held up by the help text for true is a page that isn't used caching all that data
21:26:46 <kmc> Bike: can you give me more info about the μC class, syllabus or list of materials or such
21:26:52 <olsner> unless you're sufficiently lucky that the help text is in all separate pages that don't get loaded from disk (and don't have relocations, etc)
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21:27:18 <kmc> μC programin' is extremely easy to pick up on your own, since it's now a huge hobby field with lots of resources for everyone including total tech beginners
21:27:47 <kmc> and I think a lot of college μC classes have a "party like it's 1985" vibe
21:27:55 <Vorpal> olsner, I get similar read speed "experience" with my 2x 1 TB in RAID 1 at home to my insane 250 GB Intel 520 SSD at work. Both are just too fast for me to notice.
21:27:59 <kmc> programming weird chips in assembly because that's what we did back in the day, damnit
21:28:09 <kmc> which... could be fun, but is mostly a slog ime
21:28:22 <Bike> i'm thinking of switching to a track that would make me take both classes, so eh
21:28:38 <Vorpal> Bike, electric circuits could be fun
21:28:45 <Bike> ah hey, the syllabus is online.
21:28:59 <int-e> olsner: don't most shells have true and false built in anyway?
21:29:16 <Bike> ISAs, serial communication, writing efficient code, timing, async/interrupts, blablablabla
21:29:24 <kmc> otoh there is a HUGE gap between hobby arduino stuff and the kind of EE you need to know if you want to design a cheap tiny robust power-efficient mass-producable device
21:29:27 <Bike> "Discuss the central components of Microchip MIPS32 RISC microcontrollers" so that gives an idea of materials
21:29:42 <Bike> is mips weird 1985?
21:29:43 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway echo $(( $(du -b /bin/true) / 1024 ))
21:29:43 <Vorpal> bash: 22880/bin/true / 1024 : division by 0 (error token is "/true / 1024 ")
21:29:58 <Bike> "Operate and control a basic robotic car" oh ho ho.
21:30:24 <Vorpal> True is pretty big though, 4 pages in total
21:30:26 <kmc> well at least the MIPS architecture is simple and elegant and has free C compilers
21:30:28 <Bike> "Required textbooks: None" i really like the EE department's style
21:30:43 <int-e> 27080 bytes here, excessive :/
21:30:46 <Vorpal> kmc, AVR is pretty common these days
21:31:05 <kmc> i dunno if the peripheral parts of the Microchip ones are nice or not
21:31:10 <kmc> Vorpal: for college classes? that's good
21:31:28 <kmc> our infamous intro microcontrollers class used a custom board with an 80186 and a load of other chips on it
21:31:36 <Bike> required materials... chip is from a local supplier i've liked so far, basic lights and switches... ooh, a stereo amp... bluetooth... robotics kit
21:31:38 <kmc> 4 pages what?
21:31:38 <olsner> Vorpal: 22880 is more like 6 pages
21:31:41 <Vorpal> kmc, I meant memory pages for /bin/true
21:32:05 <kmc> I think we used the 80186 because they bought a barrel of them back in 1985 and were still using them up
21:32:12 <Bike> looks like the compiler is this thing http://www.microchip.com/pagehandler/en_us/devtools/mplabxc/
21:32:16 <kmc> I think MIT uses the 8051? not sure tho
21:32:30 <Bike> obviously i should write a rustc backend for my robocar
21:32:33 <Vorpal> olsner, hm, I did du /bin/true, which is 512 byte blocks, which is 24. Divided by 2 is 12. Divided by 4 (For 4k) is... 3 actually
21:32:55 <kmc> 80186 is obscure enough that most of the time when I googled for resources, I found only the website for the course I was taking :(
21:33:20 <olsner> Vorpal: I'm right, obviously
21:33:31 <Vorpal> olsner, where is my math wrong then?
21:33:35 <Vorpal> kmc, 80186? Is that like their second CPU?
21:33:36 <Bike> maybe i should check the professor to make sure he's not the anti masonic guy
21:33:56 <int-e> Vorpal: the assumption that du uses 512 byte blocks
21:34:09 <Vorpal> int-e, pretty sure it does? I remember reading that some time ago
21:34:26 <kmc> Vorpal: no, there was the 4004 and the 8008 and the 8080 and the 8086/8088 and maybe others
21:34:30 <Vorpal> q Display values are in units of the first available SIZE from --block-size, and the DU_BLOCK_SIZE, BLOCK_SIZE and BLOCKSIZE environment variables. Otherwise, units default to 1024 bytes
21:34:30 <Vorpal> (or 512 if POSIXLY_CORRECT is set).
21:34:44 <kmc> first intel processor ever was for some japanese calculator
21:34:48 <Vorpal> int-e, So I was correct under POSIX
21:35:17 <kmc> the 80186 was an attempt to turn the 8086 into a microcontroller but not really in the modern sense, it still needs external ROM and RAM and loads of other stuff
21:35:25 <int-e> Vorpal: but that's a small excuse for not noting that 512*24 is quite far from 22880 :)
21:35:35 <kmc> http://wolverine.caltech.edu/eecs51/kits/kit51ins.htm
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21:35:40 <Bike> "This course covers a wide spectrum of software testing techniques for traditional and object-oriented languages"
21:35:47 <Vorpal> int-e, I'm better at math with letters than math with actual digits? Kay?
21:36:25 <Bike> "Software Testing: A Craftsman’s Approach" they've infilitrated the textbooks!
21:36:46 <Vorpal> Bike, eeww. That sounds like the opposite of quickcheck
21:37:03 <kmc> "The biggest change comes in the growing prominence and acceptance of Agile Programming."
21:37:11 <Vorpal> Which is of course the best testing technology that I know of currently
21:37:42 <Bike> well, anyway, i'm not taking that class, just thought that was amusing.
21:38:02 <kmc> blatantly gendered language? in my CS textbook? it's more likely than you think
21:38:13 <fizzie> Our DSP assembly course had what I think was quite a "90s" vibe when it came to hardware it ran on (a TI TMS320C54x devkit, some fancy 56K audio box with knobs, and some AD SHARC thing).
21:38:20 <Bike> oh hey, i didn't even notice, you're right.
21:38:48 <int-e> oh ... gender ... "middle person attack" sounds awful, imho.
21:39:24 <Vorpal> kmc, gendered? How do you mean?
21:40:05 <kmc> I generally don't accept it when men say "but it's just TOO HARD to come up with better words"
21:40:40 <Bike> mega craftinator z
21:41:06 <kmc> anyway the uses of "craftsman" in startupland are meaningless pompous marketing fluff so they should probably be excised alltogether
21:41:15 <Vorpal> Craftsman is a common word though. While I would agree that it would be a bad *new* word to be created. I don't really care about existing words.
21:41:18 <fizzie> "Software Testing: Mega Craftinator Z's Approach" has a certain ring to it.
21:41:29 <Vorpal> kmc, that I can agree on though
21:41:37 <kmc> i'm happy being an engineer, being an engineer is awesome, I don't need to pretend I'm a rockstar or a painter or a craftsman instead
21:42:09 <Vorpal> kmc, Though being a Rockstar painter crafting engineer would be awesome
21:42:15 <olsner> why be any of those things when you can be MEGA CRAFTINATOR Z?
21:42:42 <Bike> mega craftinator z is formed when rockstar blue, painter red, crafter yellow, and engineer pink combine, that's why
21:42:42 <kmc> Vorpal, int-e: I think it's very hard for men to empathize with what it's like to be a woman in programming and receive tiny (usually unintentional) signals every day that say you are abnormal and you aren't a Real Programmer etc
21:42:55 <kmc> this is my opinion after listening to lots of women describe their experiences in the field
21:43:07 <fizzie> Bike: Which one of them forms the head?
21:43:07 <kmc> obviously, not all women feel this way
21:43:19 <Vorpal> kmc, Craftman has nothing to do with programming though, as you just said.
21:43:21 <kmc> but if you can fix the language to make some people more welcome, without really hurting anyone else, why not do it?
21:43:29 <kmc> Vorpal: we were talking about the title of a software book..........
21:43:36 <Vorpal> kmc, but should we change the word "human" just because it contains "man"?
21:43:37 <kmc> and more generally about the term's (mis)use in programming
21:44:02 <Bike> yeah it's a bit silly to say "well I don't care" when you're included in "craftsman"
21:44:02 <Bike> like, obviously.
21:44:02 <Bike> fizzie: i haven't taken my class in megacontrollers yet, couldn't tell you :(
21:44:03 <Vorpal> Swedish has the same issue, "människa" = human "män" = men
21:44:05 <kmc> Vorpal: maybe eventually? but we have to start somewhere
21:44:17 <kmc> Vorpal: it's a bit of a slippery slope fallacy you're making
21:44:23 <fizzie> I suggest "humoid", just because "humoid resources" sounds good.
21:44:30 <kmc> Vorpal: you might want to read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
21:44:44 <Bike> haha i was just going to link that.
21:45:10 <Vorpal> kmc, no, I'm very much against creating *new* words like "craftman". But I also find it silly to keep changing an existing language unless there is more than a few people who complain about it
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21:45:19 <kmc> there are TONS of people who complain about this
21:45:22 <kmc> you aren't listening to them
21:45:23 <Bike> incidentally, 'human' is etymologically not related to 'man'.
21:45:47 <Vorpal> Bike, oh? Interesting. How does it work out then?
21:46:03 <Bike> 'human' is from 'homo', 'man' is from germanic 'mann' or something
21:46:09 <kmc> Vorpal: it's amazing how people will claim that biased language doesn't matter and yet fight really hard to keep it
21:46:12 <Bike> part of english's general half french thing.
21:46:12 <kmc> why do you care so much
21:46:25 <kmc> if some people dislike this word, and by your own admission it's silly to care, then just let them win
21:46:54 <kmc> Vorpal: and what did you think of the essay?
21:47:27 <Vorpal> I read it a couple of years ago. Yes it has a point. But, kmc, I think creating neologisms all over the place just lead to unnecessary and pointless confusion.
21:47:40 <kmc> what's your basis for claiming it's confusing, at all?
21:47:52 <kmc> who will be confused if I say "craftsperson" or "maker" or "artisan" or any of 10 other synonyms instead of "crafstman"
21:48:25 <FreeFull> Developer makes me think of photography or hair
21:48:25 <Vorpal> kmc, try replacing "man" with "person" or similar in all words like "craftsman" for a week in all speech and writing and see if people don't get confused
21:48:42 <Vorpal> kmc, "artisan" or "maker" would work yes
21:48:46 <kmc> Vorpal: I have been doing this for years
21:48:47 <Vorpal> craftsperson would not
21:48:50 <kmc> Vorpal: not a single person has ever been confused
21:49:02 <Vorpal> Well then I might be wrong I guess.
21:49:07 <nooodl> another interesting etymology fact:
21:49:19 <nooodl> latin "habere", "to have", is cognate to english "give", not english "have"
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21:49:35 <kmc> it's cool how I had this same exact argument with the JavascriptMVC people like a year ago and they gave me all of the standard bingo-card excuses not to change it and then they finally fixed it after a whole year
21:49:38 <nooodl> latin "capere", "to take", *is* cognate to english "have".
21:49:44 <Vorpal> nooodl, that sounds implausible. How does that work out?
21:49:56 <Taneb> ...the DM's telling me off for derailing the adventure and we haven't actually started yet
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21:50:24 <Vorpal> kmc, I don't think I will take any personal action regarding it though, I simply don't care enough about the issue.
21:50:30 <kmc> Vorpal: then you're just a dick
21:50:34 <kmc> what's the cost to you
21:51:12 <Vorpal> kmc, Having to keep remembering to do it all the time, scan the phrases ahead and so on.
21:51:22 <nooodl> "habere" and "give" are from PIE *gʰabʰ-
21:51:27 <nooodl> "capere" and "have" from *keh₂p-
21:51:59 <nooodl> also cool: "Since there is no common Indo-European root for a transitive possessive verb have (notice that Latin "habeo" is not related to English "have"), Proto-Indo-European probably lacked the have structure. Instead, the third person forms of be were used, with the possessor in dative case, cf. Latin mihi est / sunt, literally to me is / are."
21:51:59 <kmc> you know what's a lot harder than having to think before you speak? being anything other than a middle-class white man in programming
21:52:02 <kmc> consider this a small tax
21:52:08 <kmc> towards a better, more fair world
21:52:56 <kmc> i find that thinking before I speak has all kinds of benefits....
21:53:01 <Vorpal> kmc, and I personally don't know anyone who is bothered by it, neither male nor female. I know a woman who I remember saying pretty much "whatever" in a discussion about this.
21:53:13 <kmc> wow ONE WOMAN ONE TIME TOLD ME IT WAS OK
21:53:18 <kmc> pack it up, feminism is solved
21:53:30 <Vorpal> kmc, oh come on, strawmans aren't cool
21:53:43 <kmc> Vorpal: perhaps your attitude towards these things has some selection effect on the people you know?
21:54:06 <kmc> I know lots of people who do care
21:54:15 <Vorpal> kmc, maybe? *Shrug*. I'm nice towards people of either gender I hope. But I couldn't give a damn about the language itself.
21:54:16 <Bike> Vorpal: it's not really a straw argument, given that "i haven't checked but nobody seems to care so stop caring" was your actual argument.
21:54:24 <kmc> perhaps the fact that I don't dismiss their experiences just for being different of mine has something to do with the fact that they continue to talk to me
21:54:49 <Vorpal> Bike, I didn't tell kmc to stop caring. I just said I didn't care myself because nobody around me in "real life" has seemed to care at all.
21:54:56 <kmc> and I said that makes you a jerk
21:55:00 <kmc> if you're ok with that, we can move on
21:55:26 <lexande> Vorpal: i don't think it's reasonable to assume that they'd tell you if they did care
21:55:50 <Vorpal> kmc, I think that saying that makes me a jerk is a bit much. I make a point of *not* laughing at sexist jokes nor of course telling them. Even in an all male company.
21:56:01 <lexande> they might expect you to respond defensively, as you did to kmc
21:56:19 <kmc> wow you make a point of not telling sexist jokes even when you could get away with it
21:56:22 <kmc> gold star for you
21:56:23 <lexande> and yes there are obviously bigger jerks and this is not the most important issue in the world
21:56:34 <nooodl> what is wrong with "craftsman" if you use it to mean "craftsperson"
21:56:37 <Vorpal> lexande, not to an actual woman saying that no.
21:56:41 <Vorpal> That would carry some weight.
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21:57:01 <Vorpal> nooodl, Well argue that with kmc. I'm out. I need to sleep
21:57:08 <kmc> 'night Vorpal
21:57:18 <kmc> nooodl, see above?
21:57:42 <lexande> Vorpal: obviously if you want citations of women who care it's easy to find many. also sexism hurts men too.
21:58:40 <kmc> nooodl: the crux of it is <kmc> … I think it's very hard for men to empathize with what it's like to be a woman in programming and receive tiny (usually unintentional) signals every day that say you are abnormal and you aren't a Real Programmer etc
22:00:13 <lexande> Vorpal: anyway if you sometimes slip up and say something like "craftsman" it's not a huge deal, but you should avoid it if you notice yourself doing it, and accept it graciously when people point out the mistake
22:00:56 <kmc> I think people get defensive because there's an implication that if you call someone out on behavior you are saying they're a horrible malicious sexist as a personality trait
22:01:00 <kmc> that's not how it works
22:01:13 <kmc> sexism is malware, we all get some of it from growing up in a patriarchal society
22:01:16 <kmc> we help each other get rid of it
22:01:35 <quintopia> didn't expect to see this discussion here
22:01:46 <kmc> hi quintopia
22:02:10 <nooodl> the thing with "man" to me is, in certain contexts, like "craftsman", it's plain obvious that people aren't REALLY talking about just male people
22:02:11 * kmc is still working on how to make the preceding point without tone-policing
22:02:21 <kmc> nooodl: intent isn't everything
22:02:30 <kmc> nooodl: did you read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
22:03:29 <lexande> kmc: was about to link to that
22:03:48 <kmc> I already did when I had the same conversation with Vorpal that I'm about to have with nooodl
22:03:55 <kmc> except I might fuck off instead
22:04:00 <Bike> now i'm wondering where i saw it first. maybe it was in his book on translation
22:04:10 <kmc> I got it from shachaf, I'm pretty sure
22:04:38 <kmc> it's not, like, a perfect analogy, but it goes a long way imo
22:04:42 <quintopia> i kind of agree with nooodl here. i understand the stewardess/steward -> flight attendant thing since in that case, the terms are definitively gendered, but "man" meant "human" before it meant "male human", and i don't mind saying "craftsmanship" or "workmanship" if i'm not around someone who hasn't explicitly told me it offends them
22:04:59 <kmc> it doesn't really matter what a word meant thousands of years ago
22:05:06 <kmc> it matters what thoughts and feelings it produces in someone hearing it today
22:05:21 <Bike> i don't mind making sexist jokes unless i'm around someone who's told me it offends them
22:06:02 <quintopia> most folk i know don't get a feeling of offense from the word "craftsmanship". if i knew someone who did, i wouldn't. same with a lot of other things.
22:06:11 <kmc> quintopia: I went over that with Vorpal too
22:06:14 <Bike> carol is the attacker. clearly a great step forward for feminism.
22:06:26 <quintopia> it's specific to these words though, because the connotation in them isn't obvious
22:06:31 <lexande> quintopia: how do you know what other people feel?
22:06:36 <kmc> also I really hate the word "offended" because people totally lose their shit whenever it comes up
22:06:44 <kmc> let's talk about, are you HURTING people
22:06:47 <Bike> what the heck do you mean it's not obvious, it says "man" right there
22:06:48 <kmc> whether or not you intended to
22:06:49 <nooodl> kmc: yeah "offended" is dumb
22:06:51 <kmc> maybe only a little
22:06:55 <kmc> yes, maybe it would be better if all women magically stopped noticing gendered language
22:07:00 <kmc> that's some irrelevant sci fi scenario
22:07:07 <kmc> it's not their responsibility to fix the system
22:07:09 <quintopia> fine. use that word. s/offense/hurt/
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22:07:58 <quintopia> i know what people feel because they are my friends and i pay attention to them and care about them
22:08:27 <quintopia> and i can see that my friends are happy when i say they have displayed quality craftsmanship regardless of gender
22:08:44 <kmc> it's fine that your friends don't mind
22:08:52 <nooodl> imo this shouldn't be a matter of audience
22:09:07 <kmc> there are lots of things I personally don't mind, which I still wouldn't subject random people to
22:09:32 <quintopia> i don't interact with random people too much. i'm more careful around strangers.
22:09:34 <Bike> just, look, can't you step back and say, ok, this is a small thing and i'm going to say i "don't care" about it while arguing, maybe i can just step back and consider why other people are arguing versus why i'm arguing
22:09:53 <Bike> maybe they have friends who it bothers? whooooo knooooows
22:09:55 <nooodl> i mean. i have friends i can call "assholes" jokingly, but that doesn't make that an alright word to use anywhere!
22:10:04 <Bike> hi shachaf. what is up.
22:10:24 <shachaf> people mentioned me, hi people
22:10:41 <quintopia> asshole has a clear negative connotation. i am against using words with clear negative connotations without good reason around strangers
22:11:26 <lexande> anyway it's not like this is some sort of purity question where you're a terrible person if you ever use language that could be construed as non-gender-neutral
22:12:40 <kmc> maybe since women are only 15% of programmers and only 1.5% of open source contributors and leave the field at more than twice the rate of men, we could try being extra careful and welcoming even if a lot of them don't really care
22:12:44 <kmc> just a thought
22:12:45 <kmc> doesn't cost much
22:13:20 <lexande> and certainly some instances of gendered language (e.g. MITM) are much harder to get rid of than others
22:13:31 <kmc> I still say MITM
22:13:38 <kmc> I don't claim to be perfect or anything
22:13:40 <lexande> but in general it's desirable to use less gendered language
22:13:41 <int-e> mouse in the middle :)
22:13:42 <quintopia> i kind of want "man" to mean what it once did again. i want to live in a world where everyone you respect is "ser" regardless of gender. at the very least i want to gender-neutralize language without having to add more syllables.
22:13:53 <Bike> well you fucking don't, deal with it.
22:14:10 <quintopia> i want to deal with it by moving towards that
22:14:26 <Bike> give up on the man thing. it's pointless. nobody cares about syllable counting.
22:14:28 <kmc> but you're not willing to add one more syllable every time you say "craftsmen" (which is, how often?)
22:14:34 <lexande> quintopia: do you always use 'they' instead of 'he' or 'she'?
22:15:20 <quintopia> if i don't know gender yeah. except when specifying a hypothetical person in formal writing, in which case i alternate between the two gendered pronouns
22:15:35 <kmc> do journals etc. not accept singular "they"?
22:15:50 <lexande> quintopia: 'they'ing everybody would move you towards the world you describe
22:16:13 <nooodl> i'm going to be honest here: it took me two entire paragraphs of http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html before i "got it"
22:16:22 <lexande> (regardless of whether you know gender)
22:16:23 <quintopia> i do my formal writing for the example of high school students, and singular they is not accepted grammar yet. it's a survival adaptation for my job.
22:16:30 <kmc> that's fair, I think
22:16:58 <Bike> nooodl: tangent: where are you from?
22:17:10 <nooodl> belgium. native dutch speaker
22:17:38 <lexande> quintopia: singular they has a long history in english, goddammit
22:17:40 <Bike> i've been wondering how much of "getting it" is based on being american, is all.
22:17:52 <quintopia> lexande: some people prefer specific pronouns and request they be used. i would be moving away from the spirit of wanting the world i describe if i imposed pronouns on people that didn't want them
22:18:12 <quintopia> lexande: but they don't have a long history in style books
22:18:16 <lexande> quintopia: have you ever met someone who objected to being described as "they"?
22:19:13 <nooodl> it probably was. i sorta glossed over the "-white" words thinking "oh this must be some obscure english thing i've never heard about". now that i carefully look at the list it's really obvious...
22:19:18 <quintopia> lexande: upon asking, i have never met someone who specifically requested, and i am trying to always ask
22:19:57 <lexande> i have met people whose preferred pronoun is 'they'
22:20:10 <lexande> but also people with lots of other preferred pronouns, but they were all okay with being called 'they'
22:20:19 <lexande> and this is much easier than keeping track of neologisms
22:21:31 <nooodl> honestly i think i'd feel awkward using neologism pronouns for someone... never had to, though
22:21:57 <lexande> i know someone whose preferred pronoun is 'it'
22:22:15 <Bike> i used to know someone who preferred 'it' too, it was definitely awkward for me
22:22:20 <nooodl> obviously using them is the respectful thing to do and isn't a huge effort to get used to using pronoun x, but it'd never stop sounding weird to me
22:22:23 <lexande> referring to them that way around people who don't know them risks causing actual confusion, i think
22:22:32 <lexande> but they are fine with 'they' so that's easy
22:22:42 <nooodl> yeah 'it' is a very bad idea...
22:22:46 <int-e> it's a bit awkward to use 'it' as a third person pronoun
22:23:28 <kmc> the irony of the "women would tell me if they care!" response is that women who speak up are often ignored or worse, and it's only when a man says the same thing that people take it seriously
22:23:33 <int-e> (to me, mainly because "it's" is so commonly used.)
22:23:52 <lexande> i'm not sure what to do about the fact that most of the thinking i'm familiar with on this issue is quite anglocentric
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22:25:13 <lexande> in english it's actually feasible to use 'they' for everything, but in some other languages it's a right mess
22:25:33 <shachaf> imo everyone switch to finnish
22:25:52 <Taneb> lexande, that's what they want you to think
22:25:59 <nooodl> yeah i have to use "he" in dutch :/
22:26:17 <nooodl> also in french plural "they" is gendered!! an even bigger mess
22:26:19 <fizzie> We have our fair share of gendered words, but at least the third-person singular pronoun problem is fixed.
22:26:56 <fizzie> E.g. lawyer is "lakimies" (lit. lawman) and I don't know if there's really a good, accepted alternative.
22:27:14 <fizzie> Possibly "juristi", but that's kinda loanwordy.
22:27:25 <Bike> ok i laughed at the image of fizzie making that expression, thanks myndzi
22:27:29 <fizzie> (Also might have slight differences in meaning? I don't know, I'm no lawman.)
22:27:49 <kmc> are women lawyers also referred to as "lakimies"?
22:29:31 <kmc> do many of them mind?
22:31:20 <quintopia> the weird thing about this william satire thing is that the examples actually work...the usages of "white" he cites /are/ race-inclusive. if i lived in his world, i would probably be won over by some of his arguments.
22:31:22 <fizzie> I only know that a nonzero fraction do. But I'm not aware of much of a movement to get rid of that particular term, for some reason.
22:32:06 <fizzie> Apparently "juristi" *is* being used increasingly as the replacement.
22:32:13 <Bike> quintopia: same tangent: where are you from?
22:32:25 <kmc> quintopia: are you white by any chance?
22:33:02 <kmc> it's easy for white men to claim (and even believe) that we "don't see race and gender" because we don't need to for survival... the whole western world is already set up to see us as the default kind of human being
22:33:42 <lexande> kmc: i recall that referring to Carla del Ponte (sometime prosecutor of the UN ICTY and ICTR) as "la procureuse" instead of "le procureur" in french was considered a statement in the direction of feminism
22:34:17 <kmc> which is the opposite of how it would be seen in english
22:34:59 <kmc> but that's fine... cultural context influences language connotations, film at 11
22:35:05 <lexande> at least, i remember someone remarking on this irony
22:35:29 <kmc> I like how every curse word in Spanish varies between mild G-rated teasing and horribly offensive depending on where you are in Latin America
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22:37:07 <Bike> yeah, ok, i've thought about it, and i'm just going to say i have no coherent response to "yeah i'm ok with calling bosses white and workers black".
22:37:37 <int-e> German is going the same way, unfortunately (I had to stop a while to realise that most of my objections to gender-neutral language are actually based on the mockery they make of it in German (Putting an emphasis on distinguishing between male and female forms first, and then torturing the grammar by combining "Foo" and "Fooin" into "FooInnen", that'd be something like "waiterEsses" in english ... horrible.).)
22:38:03 * kmc -> breakfast buffet
22:38:15 <Taneb> Dear god what time zone are you in
22:38:19 <quintopia> kmc: i can't claim that i don't see race and gender. sometimes i must work to ignore it.
22:38:23 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Mon Nov 11 14:38:22 2013
22:38:23 <Bike> i think he's in japan?
22:38:35 <int-e> I also found a quote by Hofstadter here, http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/node21.html (look for "This is not progress") which rings true to me.
22:38:38 <fizzie> lambdabot: You got it wrong!
22:38:47 <kmc> my VPS is still in America/Los_Angeles
22:38:49 <Bike> see, this is why i can't get a bouncer. it's dishonest
22:38:57 <Bike> what if i was on the moon. nobody would know
22:39:02 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:39:09 <kmc> `run TZ=Asia/Seoul date
22:39:11 <HackEgo> Tue Nov 12 07:39:10 KST 2013
22:39:26 <fizzie> Bike: You should get a separate bouncer located in every place you might ever be.
22:40:00 <Bike> ah i knew i had a reason for wanting a network of satellites
22:40:05 <Bike> int-e: nice page
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22:40:37 <Bike> "It is unknown in what way Man used to make love, when he was a primitive savage millions of years ago" lol
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22:43:35 <Bike> i wonder if that's old enough to be "make love" as in romancin', or fucking
22:44:41 <fizzie> You must've been the first.
22:44:48 <fizzie> (Or else there's a delicate balance.)
22:45:11 <fizzie> (Or did that thing pick up postfix increment/decrement? I forget.)
22:46:36 <int-e> fizzie: it didn't :)
22:46:51 <Bike> isn't that specialcased
22:48:22 <shachaf> You run lambdabot! You should know better!
22:48:24 <fizzie> There are so many karma subsystems, it's hard to keep track.
22:48:42 <shachaf> As far as I'm concerned you should get rid of the special case.
22:48:47 <shachaf> And also make me an admin.
22:50:02 <Bike> shachaf shall be appointed Karma Czar
22:50:03 <int-e> shachaf: I misparsed the question. I thought it was about handling foo++ as a post-increment ... looking again, I don't know why.
22:50:23 <Bike> fizzie: ha ha.
22:51:22 <int-e> shachaf: post-fix- != post-.
22:52:50 <int-e> apparently, mentioning C++ no longer reduces one's karma (it did that for a while when karma was new) :)
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22:54:53 <nooodl_> int-e: you had to give away your own karma to ++ somebody?
22:55:16 <int-e> nooodl_: no, C++ was special-cased :)
22:55:55 <int-e> I might change it to PHP ;-)
22:55:58 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
22:56:32 <Bike> y'all are totally ruining the integrity of the karma system.
22:57:25 <Bike> back in my day, when snobol had a karma of twelve it fucking MEANT something
22:57:41 <int-e> huh, there's a "<foo>'s karma unchanged at <n>" message ...
22:58:37 <fizzie> fungot: At least you track karma by making good old-fashioned subjective value judgements and not just picking up on keywords.
22:58:37 <fungot> fizzie: and its very easily done.
22:58:54 <fizzie> fungot: Well, be fair, not every bot is so AI-complete.
22:58:54 <fungot> fizzie: it shouldn't contain at all, actually. it produces com files for pete's sake!!! fnord style transformation sequence fnord
22:59:05 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: change that to a struct foo*, it becomes the new seed
22:59:55 <Bike> was fungot just talking about a magical girl whose transformation sequence involves com files
22:59:55 <fungot> Bike: what do you mean
23:00:03 <Bike> i mean, fungot, that that rules
23:00:03 <fungot> Bike: fnord ( 0x0001) at fnord
23:00:47 <fizzie> I think that's some kind of an error message.
23:00:57 <Bike> fungot: yeah, maybe all the characters could be virus themed. i like it. you a good writer, ever considered submitting something to a studio?
23:01:08 <int-e> but I think it belongs into the "this will never happen" category.
23:01:46 <Bike> fungot: i missed it.
23:01:46 <fungot> Bike: maybe i don't understand how to do any sort of type containing a type: in haskell,
23:01:53 -!- monotone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:01:56 <Bike> i don't either, man.
23:02:07 <fizzie> And that's, of course, crucial if you want to submit some writing.
23:02:51 <Bike> fungot has high standards. a rigorous, type-theoretical approach to the animes.
23:02:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
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23:03:51 <Bike> fungot, helloooooo
23:04:10 <nooodl> Bike: shh it's writing an anime
23:04:14 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:04:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:04:23 <int-e> !bfjoust slowsuicide [(+-)*100-.]
23:04:25 -!- ^v has joined.
23:04:27 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 8.3
23:05:09 <shachaf> fungot: you should write an irc bot
23:05:09 <fungot> shachaf: yes, but i was asking the question for long descriptions, the program will do is just use string-uninterned-symbol, but you can still have make-queue take an argument, and returns false
23:05:36 <shachaf> fungot: you should buy a boat
23:05:36 <fungot> shachaf: and it'll all be happy to use scheme to make you do a hot-code update in scheme
23:06:00 <shachaf> fungot: why are you so obsessed with programming!! there are other things in life
23:06:01 <fungot> shachaf: i thought that the joke might be that your particular statement needs a and some others
23:09:08 <int-e> fun, I expected more than 4 draws (and fewer wins) :)
23:10:10 <shachaf> fungot: fungot fungot fungot
23:10:10 <fungot> shachaf: ( runnin ( define x ( tag-pointer dpy ' a))
23:10:23 <shachaf> fungot more like schemegot
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23:12:40 <fizzie> Blame #scheme for that.
23:12:48 <nooodl> fizzie: fungot should balance its parens at least??
23:12:49 <fungot> nooodl: pretty soon i'm going to give you access to the char-sets.
23:13:07 <quintopia> int-e: you'd probably do better with a straight up vibrator.
23:13:07 <fungot> nooodl: i've overlooked the syntax-closure-transformer in your question" :) swap them around. bah. many languages have both " ocaml interaction" and " association"? how do i use srfi-9 records in gambit?
23:13:46 <quintopia> !bfjoust very slow suicide (-)*127(-+)*8000-
23:13:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_very: 22.0
23:14:16 <Bike> if you keep slowing the suicide does it become life (and higher scores)
23:14:45 -!- S1 has joined.
23:15:13 <quintopia> yeah that never gets a chance to suicide. it either wins or is legitimately beaten before it clears its flag. except against simple locks
23:15:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/CKIi huh
23:16:03 <int-e> !bfjoust slowsuicide (+-)*50001
23:16:07 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 9.1
23:16:51 <int-e> !bfjoust slowsuicide (+.+-)*50001
23:16:53 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 10.9
23:16:56 <int-e> ok, I'll stop there :)
23:17:15 <quintopia> int-e: vibrating between 0 and 1 is strictly better than vibrating between -128 and -127
23:17:34 <quintopia> because there are many things on the hill which have no counter-vibration
23:18:00 <nooodl> wait what does . do in bfjoust?
23:18:23 <int-e> +. is a real suicide :)
23:18:30 -!- S1 has changed nick to S2.
23:18:31 <int-e> (if noone interferes)
23:18:36 -!- S2 has changed nick to S1.
23:18:53 <quintopia> int-e: not really. (+.)*128 would be
23:19:16 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
23:19:21 <HackEgo> 1130) <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
23:19:55 <Bike> also: but cauchy :(
23:20:04 <int-e> quintopia: in the 128th interation, the flag should be zero for two consequutive cycles, or am I missing something?
23:20:05 <Bike> "nobody uses cauchy you sadist"
23:20:24 <int-e> (wow, my spelling is awful.)
23:20:30 <quintopia> int-e: you're missing the fact that "end of program" is the same as "forever nop"
23:20:50 <nooodl> wow i have just enough tabs open for chrome to draw icons for every other tab
23:21:02 <nooodl> i guess it's like a rounding thing
23:21:17 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/egostats/ updated after a long while with all those Oj742 programs.
23:21:27 <S1> <CTCP>PING 1384212085640<CTCP>
23:21:37 <Bike> great, now i have to ask boily what branford is
23:21:45 <Bike> some obscure joke probably
23:22:05 <quintopia> fizzie: thanks! looks like we might be seeing the first uptick in bf activity since january. good thing it waited for me to get home.
23:22:07 <int-e> quintopia: there's enough instructions for 200k cycles anyway. (I'm not disputing that (+)*128 is a suicide)
23:22:28 -!- S1 has left.
23:22:53 <fizzie> Bike: I think maybe Benford?
23:23:11 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law
23:23:45 <fizzie> Also missing: good old von Mises-Fisher.
23:23:59 <int-e> quintopia: So let me restate ... the code (+.+-)*50001, left alone, should set the flag to zero for two consecutive cycles (when executing +. when the flag is -1), and lose, after 4*128-2 steps. Is that right?
23:24:03 <quintopia> fizzie: wow ALL_IN only wins on even tape lengths. it must have >> in its clear loop.
23:24:40 <fizzie> Though maybe it was more about "appears in real world" and not "used by people" listing.
23:25:00 <quintopia> int-e: is it 4*? check egojsout. it prints cycle numbers.
23:25:28 <Bike> "A continuous probability distribution on the circle" neat
23:25:43 -!- S1 has joined.
23:25:59 <Bike> oh, i see, when you add -fisher it's an n-sphere instead. good going, fisher
23:26:02 -!- S1 has left.
23:26:55 <oerjan> <int-e> In any case, the most impressive Intercal program I know about is Ørjan's unlambda interpretet ( http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/intercal/ ) <-- :))
23:27:06 <int-e> quintopia: yes it is.
23:28:38 <fizzie> quintopia: Some of those tape heat-map plots seem to have become confused, will have to check them out later.
23:28:51 <nooodl> oerjan: i hadn't seen that one either. it's impressive!
23:29:27 <nooodl> the "DO CONTINUATIONS DREAM OF MONADIC SHEEP" lines are very intercal and i'm going to believe that they magically do useful stuff
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23:33:21 <quintopia> interesting that space_hotel gets grouped with preparation
23:33:24 <oerjan> <fizzie> Also missing: good old von Mises-Fisher. <-- clearly those were sadistic stats teachers. especially fisher, did you know he supported eugenics?
23:35:12 <Bike> one of my favorite things is that fisher ws conservtive and meanwhile haldane was hella marxist
23:35:59 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:37:04 <oerjan> nooodl: well, they are very instructive comments if you can think laterally enough
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23:41:22 <tswett> Sure enough, FORTRAN looks not entirely unlike INTERCAL.
23:41:51 <Bike> eh, you think?
23:42:47 <tswett> Maybe COBOL looks more like INTERCAL.
23:43:51 <Bike> tht's certainly the intent
23:44:57 <fizzie> FORTRAN looks like Python: all that whitespace-sensitivity.
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23:49:04 <oerjan> in some way intercal is the zeerust of programming languages.
23:49:37 <oerjan> made to be different, but still not escaping the general style of its contemporaries.
23:50:24 <oerjan> of course it managed in many ways.
23:54:58 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
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23:58:52 <Bike> like, a parody of python and ruby looking things?
00:23:49 <monotone> Everything would have to be elegant somehow.
00:24:10 <monotone> Ballet, the programming language.
00:25:14 <Phantom__Hoover> yeah, language design is probably too fancy to do something as simple as intercal these days
00:27:25 <monotone> If only it were as easy as flipping "GO TO" around these days.
00:27:39 <Bike> how would you parody coroutines, hm
00:28:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:32:31 <monotone> "In order to represent the alienation of the modern man, data cannot be passed between coroutines."
00:33:40 <ion> How can one even screw up that badly? :-D https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/jenkinsci-dev/-myjRIPcVwU/t4nkXONp8qgJ
00:34:46 <monotone> Incidentally, Google apparently has an INTERCAL style guide. http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
00:35:20 <ion> Hah, awesome
00:36:09 <monotone> WRT the Jenkins thing it was apparently a badly configured plugin for their code review system.
00:37:26 -!- augur has joined.
00:37:56 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/ncis-to-cease-print-edition,34523/
00:38:16 <shachaf> ion: they sure flogged those repositories
00:42:05 <oerjan> Sgeo: is that an allusion to the onion itself ceasing its print edition
00:42:17 <Sgeo> oerjan: I assume so
00:43:05 <oerjan> which i somehow saw mention in a norwegian newspaper's travel guide about a brooklyn hotel
00:45:22 <Sgeo> http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/66676985668/the-onion-is-usually-not-creditable
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00:50:09 <oerjan> <kmc> reasonably < really
00:50:17 <oerjan> > "reasonably" < "really"
00:50:23 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:50:52 <shachaf> > let (reasonably,really) = ("really","reasonably") in reasonably < really
00:51:12 <oerjan> well those are of course really reasonable definitions
00:55:42 <kmc> > "reasonably" < "really"
00:55:43 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\...
01:00:30 <oerjan> maybe you're not utf-8 clean?
01:01:07 <kmc> utf-8 dirty
01:01:37 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\SI'
01:02:16 <kmc> `unicode ZERO-WIDTH JOINER
01:04:00 <oerjan> > "reasonably" < "really"
01:04:51 <oerjan> > "reasonably" < "really"
01:05:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/SGOW
01:05:09 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:05:11 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 41.7
01:05:50 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:06:14 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:06:31 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\...
01:07:58 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
01:09:00 <oerjan> hm that's disturbing, delete deletes the zero width space together with the preceding space
01:09:31 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
01:09:40 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
01:09:53 <kmc> oerjan: does it do the same for printable diacritic combiners?
01:10:26 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:10:33 <oerjan> but it means i cannot usefully paste just a zero width space into irssi
01:13:59 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:14:16 <kmc> i used ISO 14755 mode
01:14:35 <kmc> hold Ctrl-Shift in urxvt and then you can type hex digits
01:15:02 <quintopia> interesting that my score went down
01:16:20 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
01:16:49 <oerjan> alt+numpad works, in decimal. but then i have to remember the code.
01:16:51 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/WHfL
01:16:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 44.9
01:17:23 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:17:47 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
01:18:11 <oerjan> int-e: lambdabot is still not utf-8 clean hth
01:19:25 <oerjan> why it accepts the snowman but not zero width space is beyond me...
01:19:48 <kmc> snowman conquers all
01:20:02 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:20:34 <fungot> 226 152 131 226 128 139
01:22:28 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:22:54 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/PDLa
01:22:58 <fungot> 226 128 138 226 128 139 226 128 140
01:22:59 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 45.5
01:23:18 <oerjan> it accepts the first, but not the two next
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01:25:46 <fungot> 226 152 131 226 152 139 226 128 139
01:26:13 <oerjan> so, there is no particular byte triggering it.
01:27:04 <HackEgo> [U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER]
01:27:40 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:27:53 <HackEgo> [U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER]
01:28:41 <oerjan> is lambdabot simply breaking on anything that's zero width?
01:29:31 <HackEgo> [U+200E LEFT-TO-RIGHT MARK]
01:29:41 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:30:17 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:30:29 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B]
01:31:58 <oerjan> hm ghci does the same thing
01:33:23 <oerjan> and accepts the snowman
01:36:22 <oerjan> > Data.Char.generalCategory '\8203'
01:36:32 <oerjan> > Data.Char.generalCategory '\8202'
01:36:35 <oerjan> > Data.Char.generalCategory '\8204'
01:36:39 <oerjan> > Data.Char.generalCategory '\8205'
01:36:42 <oerjan> > Data.Char.generalCategory '\8206'
01:36:49 <oerjan> > Data.Char.generalCategory '\8207'
01:37:00 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
01:37:39 <oerjan> i say it doesn't like Format characters
01:40:13 <oerjan> i find similar issues on ghc trac but they're old, slightly different, and claimed to be fixed.
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01:53:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/KXCd
01:53:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 49.0
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02:01:22 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/XBCa
02:01:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 49.9
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02:23:06 <oerjan> darn reading the haskell report makes me think this is intended behavior; the characters allowed in literals are restricted to "graphic" characters, which doesn't include formatting ones, i think.
02:24:20 <kmc> `can bin/zalgo
02:24:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: can: not found
02:24:25 <kmc> `cat bin/zalgo
02:24:27 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import codecs,sys,random \ stdin=codecs.getreader("utf-8")(sys.stdin) \ stdout=codecs.getwriter("utf-8")(sys.stdout) \ x=[unichr(0x300+i) for i in range(0,112)+[393,2887]] \ def z(n,c): \ if c in ["\n"]+x: \ n=0 \ return u"".join(x[random.randrange(0,len(x))] for i in range(n)) \ stdout.write(u"".join(c+z(2,c) for c in st
02:24:30 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/WHcY
02:24:32 <kmc> oh that's not my zalgo
02:24:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 49.0
02:24:39 <kmc> import System.Random;main=mapM_((>>(י=<<randomRIO('̀','ͯ'))).י)=<<getContents;י=putChar
02:24:54 <kmc> stdout=codecs.getwriter("utf-8")(sys.stdout) <----- python is a classy language
02:25:55 <oerjan> > Data.Char.generalCategory '\8202'
02:26:22 <oerjan> by my reading this isn't actually allowed either.
02:26:36 <tswett> Well, it's a space, right?
02:27:05 <tswett> Apparently HAIR SPACE.
02:27:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/NHfA
02:27:11 <oerjan> yes, and the BNF does not include uniWhite in graphic.
02:27:12 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 48.7
02:27:55 <tswett> > map negate [1, 2, 3]
02:28:02 <oerjan> hm i can report this as two alternative bugs.
02:28:19 <tswett> I love how is considered whitespace.
02:29:07 <kmc> OGHAM SPACE MARK would be a good name for a currency in science fiction
02:30:17 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
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02:30:53 <tswett> Ogham seems like kind of a bad alphabet.
02:32:49 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8...
02:33:23 <tswett> Like, who thought it was a good idea to have four different letters each consisting of five parallel lines?
02:33:31 <oerjan> fantastic, it allows that character _except_ where the report allows it.
02:33:54 <tswett> Almost every letter consists of a number of near-vertical parallel lines.
02:34:48 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\5...
02:39:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/CHXJ
02:40:03 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 49.3
02:49:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/cXbC
02:49:12 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 49.4
02:52:22 <kmc> death under ptrace
02:53:33 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/DgQU
02:53:37 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 55.1
02:54:35 <quintopia> and that's the sound of me changing the size of the decoy that ais was using to figure out where my flag was in omnipotence. rightful station restored!
02:59:41 <kmc> death to ptrace
03:10:28 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/YEBA
03:10:34 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 55.2
03:23:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/hZKY
03:23:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 54.1
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04:28:13 <oklopol> is there a program where you can fight bfjoust bots manually
04:28:57 <oerjan> i hear people use bfjsout on the web
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04:42:05 <kmc> stupid self-aware makefiles
04:43:00 * Sgeo panics and puts the makefile in a box
04:44:02 <kmc> won't work
04:44:10 * oerjan swats Sgeo for thinking ai boxes work -----###
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04:51:25 <oklopol> oerjan: what's bfjsout on the web
04:52:39 <oerjan> well it's bfjoust in javascript
04:52:57 <oerjan> no idea why google doesn't find it
04:53:45 <oerjan> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/index.php
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05:01:10 <oklopol> by manually i meant you press left to go left, right to go right, up to increment etc
05:03:58 <oerjan> WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO
05:04:42 <oklopol> what did you think manually meant
05:04:55 <oerjan> not putting them on the hill
05:04:57 <oklopol> "in such a way that the results are shown on a webpage instead of an irc channel"
05:05:39 <oerjan> anyway, that will be unfair to the bots unless you need an instruction (equivalent to [) in order to check the value of your current cell.
05:06:18 <oklopol> i realized it'd be unfair, but i didn't realize it's that easy to fix
05:06:46 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
05:06:50 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
05:07:46 <oerjan> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
05:08:04 <oerjan> the list of currently competing programs
05:09:11 <oerjan> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ has the actual code
05:10:30 <zzo38> I tried to think more of making a category of spells in Icosahedral RPG, although it seems the way I have it, the distributive law fails on spell durations. There may be a few different ways to fix this, though.
05:11:08 <oerjan> oklopol: actually the check only should tell you if the current cell is zero, of course
05:12:56 <oklopol> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ doesn't make it very clear which player is which
05:15:37 <zzo38> But I did determine that (prime) objects could be WORLD and EVENT. An ordinary spell that you can cast is (WORLD -> WORLD). EVENT is used for triggers, so a (WORLD -> EVENT) spell can trigger things in a (EVENT -> WORLD) spell; what exactly it triggers depends on the spell.
05:15:42 <zzo38> Does this seem OK?
05:19:38 <oerjan> oklopol: um that lists individual programs, not matches.
05:21:43 <oerjan> in the report, they're listed by ID. and + seems to mean the row ID wins.
05:25:26 <Sgeo> I may have accidentally convinced my boss's boss to buy proprietary software
05:27:34 <kmc> you monster
05:27:53 <kmc> RMS will be so disappointed with you
05:29:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: You advised your boss's boss about software? What use of the software is it?
05:30:08 <Sgeo> It's Charles Web Proxy, he saw me using it and I mentioned that I liked it and he saw how convenient it made testing stuff
05:30:52 <Sgeo> Although, if there's no equiv. to FiddlerScript, that would really suck
05:32:45 <Sgeo> "By inspecting the web interface HTML you can derive how to use it as web services to automate Charles."
05:33:26 <Bike> automate that shite good
05:34:42 <Sgeo> ...its idea of a web interface doesn't include modifying any settings beyond enabled/disabled
05:34:45 <kmc> do you call them your metaboss
05:35:38 <oklopol> oerjan: sorry, i was on the bfjsout page, and wanted to copy it. it had that on the url row and it looked wrong so i refreshed. the url stayed the same so i figured it's correct.
05:35:47 <oklopol> not the first time this has happened
05:36:05 <fizzie> It's still called egojsout nyaaaar.
05:36:28 <fizzie> (Managed to keep quiet for the first dozen times.)
05:36:56 <oerjan> fizzie: probably why i didn't find it with google
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05:52:20 <Lymia> !bfjoust lets-try-this-evolver-again >>++>>(>[>([(+)*5[-]]>)*-1])*-1
05:52:23 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_lets-try-this-evolver-again: 30.8
05:52:53 <Lymia> Reconfiguration time
05:52:58 <Lymia> !bfjoust lets-try-this-evolver-again <
05:53:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_lets-try-this-evolver-again: 0.0
05:57:31 <zzo38> What other objects could this category of spells include? (It is a tensor category, so all of the products exist too)
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06:03:50 <oklopol> oerjan: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/index.php doesn't make it very clear which player is which, in the sense that you choose an upper player and a lower player and then it says right wins
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06:06:09 <oerjan> i have no more clue than you do
06:06:34 <oklopol> i mean i assume right is down and left is up, just wanted to point it out that really no actual clue is given which is which, anywhere on the page.
06:07:39 <kmc> CSS is adding support for vertical writing which means that we have to start saying "measure" and "extent" instead of "width" and "height"
06:09:25 <oklopol> LOL L LLL how about the japanese add mental support for only writing like us white people write
06:09:42 <Lymia> !bf meow ++++++++++++++++++++(-)*-1
06:09:51 <Lymia> !bfjoust meow ++++++++++++++++++++(-)*-1
06:09:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_meow: 14.1
06:09:56 <kmc> isn't japanese mostly written horizontally anyway
06:10:15 <kmc> this stuff tho http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Guyuk_khan%27s_Stamp_1246.jpg
06:10:17 <oklopol> i just saw it written vertically 15 minutes ago
06:10:17 <Bike> i think it is, nowadays
06:10:18 <kmc> how can you not love that
06:10:22 <Bike> i mean, mostly
06:10:35 <oklopol> (that's when i last saw japanese text)
06:10:36 <Bike> mongolian owns though.
06:10:51 <kmc> i bet i will see some japanese text in japan
06:10:56 <kmc> will report back w/ findnigs
06:10:59 <Bike> let's just make mongolian the default for everything. it's been seven hundred years, we can give them a world empire again
06:11:05 <kmc> actually i already saw a lot of japanese text in the seoul airport and such
06:11:08 <zzo38> I see it vertically a lot in manga books, although some of it is written horizontally. In computer games though, it is mostly horizontal.
06:11:18 <Bike> oklopol are you drunk
06:11:38 <Lymia> !bfjout meow (--+)*-1
06:11:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust meow (--+)*-1
06:11:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_meow: 16.3
06:11:46 <Lymia> My evolver likes vibrators way too much
06:11:49 <Bike> you can do it lymia i believe in you
06:11:56 <oklopol> i saw a lot of japanese text in taiwan, but most of it made no sense
06:12:27 <Bike> now i have to look up which scripts are still primarily written vertically.
06:12:44 <Bike> lol wikipedia has an entire article on text orientation in cjk
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06:13:45 <zzo38> In this Windows I have "MS Gothic" font installed for Japanese writing; it also makes a font "@MS Gothic" available which turns most things sideways; I suppose this is for vertical writing in a program that is for horizontal writing.
06:13:50 <Bike> ok, wikipedia's 'vertically' in the mongolian script article links to the cjk one.
06:14:01 <Bike> "This developed because the Uyghurs rotated their Sogdian-derived script, originally written right to left, 90 degrees counterclockwise to emulate Chinese writing, but without changing the relative orientation of the letters"
06:14:05 <Bike> Language is awesome.
06:14:48 <zzo38> And it looks like vertical Japanese writing is still used a lot in manga and other things, although horizontal Japanese writing is also very common, it seems.
06:15:54 <Bike> the first major thing to write chinese horizontally was Science (I guess not the journal?)
06:15:57 <Bike> "This magazine is printed so that it goes sideways from the top left, and is marked with Western punctuation. This is to make the insertion of mathematical, physical and chemical formulae convenient, not for the sake of novelty-hunting. We ask our readers to excuse us."
06:15:59 <zzo38> In "Sushi Plus" restaurant in Victoria, BC, there are a few Japanese signs, which are written using vertical writing; the whiteboard (which is turned backwards for some reason) also has vertical Japanese writing on it.
06:16:01 <Bike> novelty-hunting
06:17:35 <zzo38> I have several issues of the (English) "Science" magazine; I got them for free from the doctor's office; they didn't want them anymore so they gave all of them to me.
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06:56:29 <Lymia> !bfjoust meow .-(--+)*-1
06:56:34 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_meow: 19.4
07:01:06 <Lymia> !bfjoust meow .+(--+)*-1
07:01:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_meow: 18.2
07:01:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust meow .-(--+)*-1
07:01:17 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_meow: 19.4
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07:05:08 <fizzie> -1 is automagically equal to the cycle count.
07:05:18 <fizzie> (If that wasn't mentioned already.)
07:05:34 <Bike> cycle count of what
07:05:44 <fizzie> The maximum cycle count, I should say.
07:06:42 <fizzie> kmc: What are you doing in Seoul anyway, some kinda Mozilla thing?
07:07:35 <kmc> a bunch of people from Samsung are working with us on this Servo project, and they invited us to spend the week working out of their office
07:08:35 <kmc> so I'll be doing that until Friday, then I'll do tourist stuff in Seoul until Monday night, when I fly to Osaka
07:08:46 <kmc> and then I'll do tourist stuff in Japan until Sunday!
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07:09:16 <kmc> are there any #esotericers in .jp?
07:10:18 <zzo38> Not as far as I know, but there are some Japanese stuff related to esoteric programming.
07:10:56 <oerjan> kmc: there's one in korea though
07:11:04 <kmc> oh really, who?
07:11:06 <kmc> hi lifthras1ir
07:11:43 <shachaf> are there any #esotericers on the moon?
07:11:45 <fizzie> There was a lurker from .jp some months, one of those who again said nothing.
07:12:13 <oerjan> lifthras1ir doesn't say much these days :/
07:12:47 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think so. (And I hope the IAC doesn't destroy the moon and replace it with a fake.)
07:13:05 <fizzie> Do they... have plans for that?
07:13:27 <oerjan> clearly they should replace it with a bust of alexander abian. it would only be fitting.
07:13:28 <zzo38> For destroying the moon? I don't think so; IAC is just a fictional organization in some of my works.
07:13:47 <shachaf> zzo38 has destroyed the IAC and replced it with a fake. :-(
07:14:01 <oerjan> twist: zzo38 is an scp
07:14:49 <oerjan> (he'd be safe if the foundation understood him)
07:15:18 <Bike> that's a tall order.
07:23:52 <oerjan> also as seen on #esoteric, http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1960-j
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08:16:55 <Jafet> “Debris and sometimes even people can get swept up into a blast wave, causing more injuries such as penetrating wounds, impalement, broken bones, or even death.”
08:19:42 <kmc> injuries such as death
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08:25:04 <kmc> "Before GitHub existed, major companies created their knowledge mainly in private. But when you access their GitHub accounts, you're free to download, study, and build upon anything they add to the network"
08:25:08 <kmc> github invented open source
08:25:10 <kmc> you heard it here first
08:26:41 <Jafet> This is why we can't have private repositories
08:26:53 <olsner> indeed, this is the first time I've heard that
08:27:42 <fizzie> For some reason I don't seem to be able to clone Windows 8.1 sources from https://github.com/microsoft -- must be some kind of temporary glitch.
08:29:23 <kmc> bit surprised that https://github.com/microsoft doesn't exist
08:29:55 <zzo38> kmc: That is because they use CodePlex for their open source projects, isn't it?
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08:39:47 <zzo38> As far as I know they probably do, when they have any.
08:42:08 <elliott> git is not really the most windows-friendly system
08:43:10 <zzo38> Although git does work on Cygwin (which isn't Microsoft).
08:43:27 <Jafet> That's because windows is not really the most git-friendly system.
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08:45:53 <ais523> I woke up like 7 hours ago
08:46:01 <fizzie> I was about to say something to the tune of "hey, those line lengths match", but they would have to, wouldn't they?
08:46:06 <ais523> also, you being here has reminded me
08:46:18 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bj
08:46:26 <ais523> let's see how much better this does
08:46:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 42.6
08:46:32 <ais523> and whether the scoring system still hates it
08:47:02 <ais523> aha, it's now correctly shown as /way/ ahead of omnipotence on points
08:47:51 <ais523> I'm not convinced juiced is getting the same results as *lance is
08:48:02 <ais523> let me run the hill myself and see if there are discrepancies
08:48:23 <ais523> cycle limit is 100000, right? this code actually depends on the exact value of the cycle limit
08:48:44 <fizzie> I've "verified" *lance against egojsout, incidentally.
08:49:09 <fizzie> (The console edition of egojsout was my first node.js thing ever.)
08:49:15 <ais523> hmm… juiced says preparation beats brachiation
08:49:22 <ais523> egobot says brachiation wins
08:49:54 <ais523> let's see… breakdown says <>>><<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>> <>><><<<<<<<<<>>>>>>> 2
08:51:33 <fizzie> Hrm. egojsout says -8 and a win for preparation.
08:51:34 <ais523> juiced says <>>><<>>><>><<>>>>>>> <>><><<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>
08:51:54 <ais523> <>>><<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>> <>><><<<<<<<<<>>>>>>> 2
08:51:58 <ais523> <>>><<>>><>><<>>>>>>> <>><><<<<<<<<<>>>>>>> -8
08:52:08 <ais523> looks like juiced agrees with egojsout
08:52:45 <quintopia> preparation is seen to pretty much destroy on mid to long tapes
08:52:53 <ais523> preparation has some digits in comments
08:52:57 <ais523> perhaps they're confusing the parser
08:53:13 <fizzie> My local copy of cranklance agrees with egojsout and juiced.
08:53:23 <fizzie> Well, gearlance, but they're the same code.
08:54:12 <ais523> btw, what do you think of my BF Joust comment grammar
08:54:18 <ais523> I can't use many punctuation marks
08:54:24 <ais523> so I use semicolons for basically all punctuation, also some colons
08:54:29 <ais523> and slashes are used as parens
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08:55:39 <ais523> oh, I think I found it
08:55:42 <ais523> whitespace between a * and a digit
08:56:00 <quintopia> what's it called when a markov can (or can't) split it into independent disconnected parts
08:56:01 <kmc> at the point where you start looking for a debugger for GNU Make, something has gone seriously wrong in life
08:56:01 <quintopia> time to start using magicmake or whatever he calls it
08:56:01 <kmc> zzo38: there's also msysgit
08:56:01 <kmc> i think that's not cygwin based
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08:57:08 <ais523> writing numbers out as words
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08:58:55 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bj
08:59:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 47.1
08:59:22 <ais523> it now tops the hill on points, and is #3 on weighted rankings
08:59:25 <ais523> because it can't beat space_hotel
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08:59:38 <fizzie> ais523: Hmm. Whitespace shouldn't affect the *lance parser at all, for as long as I remember.
08:59:52 <ais523> fizzie: perhaps that's why gearlance agrees with juiced :)
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09:00:21 <fizzie> Okay; since Mar 06, 2011, apparently.
09:00:42 <ais523> juiced appears to have a special case for ignoring whitespace after a % or a *
09:01:00 <ais523> interestingly, it parses "*10 0" as "*100"
09:01:27 <fizzie> That's actually what current *lance does, too.
09:01:37 <ais523> experts on hill scoring, would you say that I need crazy special cases against space_hotel to get it to top the hill?
09:01:37 <fizzie> (It ignores all whitespace completely.)
09:01:48 <ais523> or would you say I should try to improve its performance against the field at large?
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09:03:07 <fizzie> Before 2011-03-06 20:25:49, *lance would've parsed "* 10 0" as *0; from 20:25:49 to 23:15:21 it would have parsed as *10; ever since that, as *100.
09:03:20 <ais523> I actually think space_hotel is the most impressive program on the hill
09:03:36 <ais523> (waterfall3 is the most insane, but preparation has to be a close second)
09:03:41 <fizzie> (I added a special case for handling whitespace after */% first; then removed it and completely ignored all nonessential characters on a lower level instead.)
09:04:09 <ais523> juiced apparently has a compile-time option for whether it should conflate * and %
09:04:16 <ais523> and just look at {} to tell them apart
09:04:23 <ais523> I wrote this code ages ago, can hardly remember how it works
09:04:33 <ais523> it does produce pretty debug traces, though
09:05:04 <fizzie> *lanced doesn't distinguish between * and % either.
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09:07:26 <fizzie> I wrote a couple of new entries in the lance family (torquelance, wrenchlance) the other day, but they're p. silly.
09:08:00 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> at the point where you start looking for a debugger for GNU Make, something has gone seriously wrong in life
09:08:08 <HackEgo> 1131) <kmc> at the point where you start looking for a debugger for GNU Make, something has gone seriously wrong in life
09:08:25 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly.
09:08:37 <ais523> anyway, I find preparation really hilarious
09:08:48 <ais523> it's amusing seeing it about to lose and then cycle 100000 hit
09:09:04 <fizzie> ais523: I think it's more efficient if I just point at the (reasonably short) descriptions at https://github.com/fis/chainlance/blob/master/README.md instead, maybe.
09:09:08 <ais523> in a previous version, there was some program/tape length combo where its flag was 0 when time ran out, IIRC, but that doens't happen any more
09:10:53 <ais523> btw, the difference between this version of preparation and the previous one is that it tries to establish the probabilistic lock a second time if it fails first time
09:11:04 <ais523> and it still knows where the enemy tape pointer is
09:11:23 <ais523> I realised that one of the defining properties of probabilistic locks is that they don't always work, so trying again can be worthwhile
09:12:14 <ais523> also, wow, I didn't realise quicklock was doing so well
09:12:17 <ais523> I need to read up on how it works
09:12:51 <ais523> aha, it's a combination of a poke and defend10's lock algorithm
09:12:55 <ais523> so very similar to omnipotence
09:13:19 <ais523> but the details seem different
09:13:31 <ais523> like, it attempts to synchronize with tripwires
09:13:39 <ais523> whereas omnipotence synchronizes via not setting decoys
09:13:59 <zzo38> One way to avoid nondistributive durations would be for castable spells to not be endomorphisms. Maybe there is a better way?
09:14:07 <fizzie> Somehow I feel like the length-to-score scatter plot -- http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_lenscore.png -- looks more "trendy" these days.
09:15:16 <fizzie> I wonder if I should do the Electron Band Structure In Germanium, My Ass thing in it.
09:15:30 <fizzie> ("Banking on my hopes that whoever grades this will just look at the pictures, I drew an exponential through my noise. I believe the apparent legitimacy is enhanced by the fact that I used a complicated computer program to make the fit. I understand this is the same process by which the top quark was discovered.")
09:15:59 <ais523> who's that a quote from?
09:16:33 <ais523> also, program length is mostly just an indication of attack versus defence, and whether or not it pokes
09:16:49 <ais523> although, defence programs keep doing quite high on the hill mostly because I try really hard to make that the case
09:16:57 <ais523> as part of my ongoing project into determining whether BF Joust is broken or not
09:17:03 <ais523> current conclusion: it isn't
09:17:14 <ais523> preparation beats death_to_defence
09:17:42 <fizzie> It's from http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~kovar/hall.html which I think somehow got mildly famous.
09:18:33 <ais523> incidentally, on tape length 10, preparation always loses in exactly eighteen cycles
09:18:36 <ais523> unless the opponent suicides first
09:18:41 <fizzie> Other people argue on whether bitcoin is broken or not, not understanding where the *real* money is. (That's BF Joust.)
09:18:45 <ais523> sacrificing tape length 10 in a rush program proved to be a bad idea
09:19:07 <ais523> however, in a defence program, it's normally worth it because synchronizing defence programs have effectively no chance on tape length 10 anyway
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09:20:17 <ais523> hmm, the grouping thing groups preparation and space_hotel together
09:20:27 <ais523> even though the only thing they have in common is that they beat basically everything
09:20:37 <fizzie> There's two grouping things these days.
09:20:58 <fizzie> And the first one is based on duel scores, so it can be misled by that sort of thing, I guess.
09:21:33 <fizzie> The tape heatmap grouping doesn't really group preparation with anything in particular.
09:21:52 <ais523> btw, anyone who wants to know how preparation works, this graph is a giveaway: http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_tapeheat.png
09:21:59 <ais523> although fizzie might want to move the legend, it's in the way
09:22:16 <ais523> probably because nobody expected a program to do that
09:23:13 <fizzie> Yes, I remember selecting top-middle for the legend because there used to be always a valley in there.
09:23:18 <ais523> and yeah, I'm not surprised the heatmap can't link preparation with anything
09:23:38 <ais523> never before has a program spent the majority of the cycles on tape position 9
09:24:06 <ais523> preparation's issue is that it can't move very far before it has to go back to re-establish its lock
09:24:22 <ais523> so it wants to be in a central position on the tape so as to increase its range of movement
09:27:16 <ais523> actually, http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_p21_ptapemax.png is possibly an even bigger giveaway as to how preparation works
09:27:21 <ais523> also where the name comes from
09:27:32 <fizzie> I was supposed to have a Skype meeting in two minutes, but the only one of the participants I have on my contact list seems to have disappeared.
09:27:38 <ais523> and http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_p21_ptapeheat.png is quite revealing too
09:28:08 <ais523> it's especially worth noting the discontinuity between tape lengths 17 and 18
09:28:14 <ais523> where it changes strategy
09:28:41 <ais523> (I could write paragraphs just on the "how does it know whether the tape length is above or below 17.5 anyway?")
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09:29:09 <ais523> fizzie: anyway, I have another interesting statistic, which I added to juiced recently for preparation testing
09:29:17 <ais523> number of cycles a program takes to win, compared to tape length
09:31:16 <fizzie> I have the weirdest feeling I was doing something that involved both tape lengths and duel lengths, but there indeed seems not to be anything like that on the page.
09:32:04 <zzo38> Are there any basic pokemons that *always* evolve when traded?
09:32:37 <zzo38> ais523: Ah, OK. Yes, I forgot.
09:33:07 <zzo38> But if there were any, would it be prohibited to tamper with the trainer ID numbers of such a pokemon in a tournament that allows tampering with the data?
09:33:10 <ais523> zzo38: even allowing for that, all the always-evolve-apart-from-everstone mons I know of are stage 1
09:33:23 <ais523> also you can cancel the evolution by pressing B
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09:33:35 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is what I thought, too (both of them).
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09:34:08 <FireFly> I can't think of any evolves-on-trade-without-specific-item pokemon past generation 1, either
09:34:38 <FireFly> The ones from later generations all seem to require holding a specific item
09:35:59 <zzo38> But hypothetically assume that there are some which are basic, do not require any specific item, cannot use Everstone for some reason, and cannot be cancelled. Simply to see if you can even try to guess such an answer of a question.
09:37:22 <ais523> FireFly: that's mostly due to the (not 100% strictly followed) rule that any new evolutions should have been impossible in previous gens
09:37:35 <zzo38> (My brother said he didn't know.)
09:37:45 <ais523> zzo38: you can just reset one of the games until it has the same trainer ID as a different game
09:39:55 <zzo38> ais523: Sure you can, but I don't think that would affect it at all. That may allow you to tamper with the trainer ID number of a stage 1 form if both the basic and stage 1 are like what I said, though, I suppose???
09:40:06 <zzo38> But I said a basic form.
09:40:22 <ais523> the question's as to whether you could legally have that mon with an OT that doesn't match your own
09:40:39 <ais523> if it's not new to the generation, you could migrate it from a previous generation
09:40:42 <ais523> that doesn't cause evolution
09:41:04 <zzo38> Ah, you are correct. I didn't think of that.
09:41:08 <ais523> also you could use an official external box program (Pokémon Box / My Pokémon Ranch / Pokémon Bank), that doesn't cause evolution either
09:41:17 <ais523> and normally allows unboxing onto a different cartridge if you've beaten the Champion
09:41:27 <zzo38> I didn't know of that, but OK.
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09:46:50 <zzo38> My brother also said that an exception to the rule about tampering with the data is the color of the pokeball is allowed to be changed to one that isn't obtainable under those circumstances since it has no effect on the game.
09:47:29 <ais523> zzo38: it used to have an effect, you could determine which moves a Pokémon might potentially have by whether it was in a Poké Ball or Cherish Ball (the two balls that give the most possibilities)
09:47:34 <ais523> although that was changed in X/Y
09:47:54 <zzo38> In which generations do they have an effect?
09:50:30 <ais523> zzo38: definitely 4 and 5, probably 3 as well
09:52:50 <zzo38> Perhaps he made a mistake then. (Although I suppose it would still have no effect during battle, unless opponent is allowed to see your pokeballs in which case it clearly does have an effect.)
09:53:33 <ais523> the opponent is allowed to see your Pokéballs
09:53:37 <ais523> they're visible as you send the Pokémon out
09:53:52 <zzo38> Yes, OK, then. He did clearly make a mistake.
09:54:46 <myname> somebody proofe turing completeness of pokemon!
09:55:19 <ais523> myname: it isn't, no infinite storage
09:56:29 <zzo38> Yes, that is immediately what I thought of too; no infinite storage. Both in the actual Pokemon game, and in the Pokemon card game which has various limits, some of which imply other limits, I think.
09:57:38 <zzo38> (If there is a card that prevent you from being knocked out when having too much damage, then you could potentially have unlimited amounts of damage, in the card game at least.)
09:57:43 <myname> just try what modifications you need to make it turing complete
09:57:58 <zzo38> What are they, then?
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10:01:16 <FireFly> myname: kinda relevant, http://aurellem.org/vba-clojure/html/total-control.html
10:02:02 <ais523> FireFly: that's old, but yeah, started something of a revolution
10:02:06 <FireFly> Though that's not pokemon being turing-complete, as much as a buffer-overflow into Z80 land, and Z80 being turing-complete
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10:02:24 <FireFly> Or not-quite-Z80-but-kinda-Z80 IIRC
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10:02:41 <FireFly> ais523: I know, but it seemed relevant to the question
10:02:43 <ais523> z80 isn't turing complete either
10:02:46 <ais523> and yeah, I guess it is
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10:03:26 <FireFly> Well, bah. Modulo space and addressing issues
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10:14:41 <ais523> I guess you could somehow attach infinite storage through the link cable port?
10:15:45 <myname> i guess i should sell usb attached RAM to people
10:16:25 <ais523> myname: Windows 8 (possibly 7 too) has a feature that lets you use a USB stick as RAM
10:16:37 <ais523> which strikes me as a really bad idea, given that they aren't really designed for that
10:16:43 <ais523> but I guess people think "hey, cheap extra RAM"
10:16:51 <myname> i just buy 1 gb usb sticks and sell them for 4 times the price
10:55:47 <fizzie> I remember that there was some particular configuration of Linux-on-x86 where you had some regular RAM that wasn't usable normally, but you could get an MTD block device on it, and then use that as a fast swap device.
10:56:11 <fizzie> (Also you can put swap in GPU ram with MTD kludgery.)
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11:00:27 <Jafet> That actually sounds nice, except for the fact that your swap costs more than RAM.
11:03:55 <ais523> <Malcom McLean, on Lisp> I think there's no other language where the interpreter is easier to write than "hello world".
11:04:53 <fizzie> Jafet: Ah, but you can use it for swap during those times you're not using it for graphics.
11:04:58 <Jafet> We need a language where the self-interpreter happens to be "hello world"
11:05:03 <fizzie> (Sadly, I don't think there's a very good mechanism to switch.)
11:10:57 <ais523> hmm… in retrospect, it's not surprising that Birmingham University had bought a license to the Algol 60 specification
11:11:04 <ais523> I suspect that those things probably last forever
11:11:12 <ais523> and at one point, it would probably have been pretty important for them
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13:52:55 <metasepia> KPDK 121253Z 00000KT 7SM CLR 05/04 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP220 T00500039
13:52:59 <metasepia> CYUL 121323Z 27018G23KT 15SM BKN040 M03/M10 A3012 RMK SC7 SLP200
13:58:25 <boily> I wonder if all Kxxx stations are assigned.
14:02:05 <boily> ~eval 26 * 26 * 26
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14:11:49 <boily> were you pinged by a random letter combination?
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14:20:10 <john_metcalf> Hi, is "Lip-Sie" the correct way to shorten "Lipiec-Sierpien" (Polish for July-August)
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14:34:15 <boily> hm. apparently monads were there even in Sweden a long time ago. they celebrated them in the calendar!
14:34:53 <boily> (Vintermånad → November)
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15:31:26 <fizzie> "Winter month" is kind of uninspired. (Then again, our current word for June is "summer month", and September is "autumn month".)
15:32:20 <fizzie> (Okay, September is a bit more like "autumnal month", but still.)
15:32:41 <fizzie> ("Syyskuu", not "syksykuu".)
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15:50:04 <boily> fizzie: and then you have the likes of google translate who go from fr:automne into fi:pudota.
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16:04:45 <fizzie> Ah. Wonder if it goes via en:fall or what.
16:05:10 <fizzie> (Sounds like a reasonable assumption.)
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16:18:23 <boily> (meanwhile, djinns and gargoyles and ants! oh my!)
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17:23:49 <fizzie> "*VERY IMPORTANT: The source files ( .tex, .doc, .eps, .ps, .bib, .db, .tif, .jpeg, ...) may be uploaded as a single .rar archived file. Please do not attempt to upload files with extensions .shs, .exe, .com, .vbs, .zip as they are restricted file types."
17:23:55 <fizzie> I'm sure this makes some kind of sense.
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17:24:12 <Bike> why do people do that -_-
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17:26:09 <fizzie> That was an IEEE paper submission system thingie, for context.
17:27:01 <fizzie> I guess .rar files are just safer than .zips? Somehow.
17:27:18 <quintopia> EVERYONE KNOWS THAT ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PUT EXECUTABLES IN A RAR
17:27:47 <Bike> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/bulletin/ms04-034 oh no!
17:28:37 <fizzie> Guess it's true that there are more .zip holes in the world.
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17:29:07 <fizzie> On the other hand, .rar files smell of pirated software.
17:29:25 <fizzie> Perhaps they could settle on accepting .7z instead.
17:31:31 <Bike> they probably use a lot of windows
17:31:43 <Bike> why else even think about .com and .vbs
17:31:56 <Bike> or well, .exe.
17:32:28 <mrhmouse> yeah but, gzip is used everywhere. It's the most common form of compression for HTTP
17:33:00 <quintopia> pretty sure modern win systems can handle gzip natively yeah?
17:33:19 <mrhmouse> I don't use an Windows system (except at work), so I wouldn't have a clue
17:34:18 <fizzie> Preferrably with the .zip half done in the "store only" compression mode.
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17:34:55 <mrhmouse> my mother once asked me "if I keep zipping it, can I fit it on my floppy disk?", referring to her music collection
17:37:21 <fizzie> There was a Finnish company advertising their repeated compression that could perform miracles.
17:40:18 <fizzie> They were doing some completely unrelated software development work, and their in-house superstar programmer just happened to invent this impossibly good compression method as a by-product.
17:40:34 <fizzie> I never managed to figure out whether the firm's CEO was dishonest or just honestly deluded.
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17:43:48 <fizzie> Nowadays he seems to be doing "Drupal, Concrete5, eZ publish, jQuery, underscore, PhoneGap etc." at some other company.
17:44:11 <quintopia> but it seems like compression is becoming something end users no longer have to worry about
17:45:14 <boily> back from lunch, and quintopia recites incantations.
17:45:17 <fizzie> Such a shame. (I have fond memories of DBLSPACEing a win3.1 system disk, leading to it no longer start up.)
17:52:42 * quintopia wraps a box to mail at Canada by fastplane.
17:57:00 <boily> “at”? “fastplane”? are you sure that you aren't mailing that by ICBM?
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17:58:03 <boily> fungot: how does one protect oneself from incoming missiles?
17:58:03 <fungot> boily: do what's interesting to me. i'm so very, very nice. how do you mean that it's not even funny
17:58:23 <boily> fungot: ... you are disquieting.
17:58:24 <fungot> boily: if you don't need it for?
17:58:50 <boily> fungot: I need it for my corporeal integrity. I know I'm being selfish, but that's something I like to possess and affirm.
17:58:51 <fungot> boily: anna sun digikamera mulle synttrilahjaks? :p i like pianos. and the japanese page was created by me actually, we could
17:59:22 <boily> fungot: I'm a pianist, and I still need to learn more Japanese if you want me to edit your page.
17:59:22 <fungot> boily: the stack should be fast enough for me
17:59:43 <boily> fungot: I'm also a human, if you didn't notice yet. that means no fast stacks.
18:03:55 <FireFly> Maybe they're talking about their internal stack
18:04:03 <fungot> FireFly: or the labels will fnord decide to make a minion/ sarahbot loop, using a function?
18:10:10 <quintopia> http://fi4.eu.apcdn.com/full/110606.jpg
18:11:34 <Bike> http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html is better. and doesn't treat autism unfortunately
18:15:38 <fizzie> fungot: Again with the spontaneous Finnish.
18:15:38 <fungot> fizzie: i'm asking for alternative fnord compilers. do you just not want to sit down with it.
18:16:18 <boily> I admit to having compiled kernels in my youth. I still get pangs and urges, but I now believe in the Way of the Precompiled Binary.
18:17:02 <quintopia> boily: careful. flashbacks can come on suddenly and unexpectedly.
18:17:40 <boily> quintopia: I know. I synced my ABS this morning. the feeling of bliss and détachement I got seeing all those nice packages I could compile...
18:17:56 <boily> what bad would result from me compiling just one little package, eh?
18:19:14 <int-e> Just don't uninstall libacl when coreutils are using it :) (that's about the worst I did, back when I was using Gentoo. I still compile the occasional kernel though, and a ton of Haskell stuff.)
18:19:50 <mrhmouse> I suppose I should have expected Arch/Gentoo users here
18:20:16 <int-e> arch has binary packages :)
18:20:17 <boily> I once rm -rfed pacman's cache. a very, very stupid move.
18:20:48 <boily> mrhmouse: have I asked you the The Question yet?
18:21:23 <int-e> 42 is the answer, I'm curious about the question now ;-)
18:21:45 <int-e> *goes back to preparing slides*
18:22:13 <boily> it's not the question, it's the The Question. very different.
18:22:22 <boily> mrhmouse: what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
18:22:29 <boily> int-e: what are you sliding?
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18:23:02 <int-e> A talk on something unpublished I'm doing with tree automata.
18:23:28 <boily> working in academia?
18:23:54 <mrhmouse> boily: I can't give you both at once
18:24:16 <int-e> yeah. <-- old and grumpy phd student
18:25:49 <olsner> boily: I forgot to set a timer, when is my food done?
18:25:57 <boily> mrhmouse: a guesstimate will do. I know about Heisenberg and Nyquist and other approximathematicians.
18:26:49 <quintopia> boily: USPS doesn't provide ICBM service anymore. no one could afford the $10,000,000 price for a small box
18:27:01 * boily gives a comfy sleeping bag (with fungot patterns) to int-e so that he can rest at his desk
18:27:01 <fungot> boily: the problem we were talking about the fnord
18:27:15 <Bike> boily didn't even ask for velocity...
18:27:15 <fizzie> There should be some kind of an #esoteric grumpy PhD student club.
18:27:28 <fizzie> Bike: Gotta be careful of that uncertainty principle.
18:27:35 <boily> olsner: what are you cooking/heating/simmering/[REDACTED]ing?
18:28:20 <boily> olsner: tabarn[EXPUNGED]. I was naïvely hoping that it wouldn't be so.
18:29:22 <olsner> I'll just give it two minutes before it gets eaten
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18:30:59 <quintopia> boily: i have an idea for an experiment
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18:31:41 <quintopia> boily: i wonder if i can get a letter delivered to you without using the post, just relying on the kindness of strangers to move it closer to its destination
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18:33:25 <mrhmouse> quintopia: actually a band I just saw in concert is doing that with a flag
18:33:57 <mrhmouse> they're having fans and friends of fans move the flag from show to show by meeting in person
18:34:51 <quintopia> mrhmouse: that sounds a lot easier. people will go out of their way to do something for a band they like.
18:35:48 <boily> you could also walk up until my apartment. google says it'll only take 380 hours.
18:37:44 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/google-walk.png
18:38:09 <fizzie> "This route may be missing sidewalks or pedestrian paths."
18:39:13 <quintopia> a little over a month to walk to boily
18:40:15 <fizzie> It's a small world after all.
18:40:24 <metasepia> CYUL 121800Z 26015G26KT 15SM -SHSN OVC036 M01/M08 A3011 RMK SC8 SLP198
18:40:31 <quintopia> but unfortunately, i couldn't do it for at least a month
18:40:32 <boily> it's a cold world after all.
18:40:45 <boily> the -SHSN has begun!
18:40:46 <metasepia> EFHK 121820Z 20016KT 9999 -RA FEW006 BKN008 BKN011 07/06 Q1010 NOSIG
18:40:51 <quintopia> i'm sending out a passport renewal application with this box
18:40:54 <fizzie> Still not winter here.
18:41:07 <metasepia> ESSA 121820Z 23013KT 9999 BKN008 BKN010 08/06 Q1009 R88/29//95 BECMG BKN012
18:42:08 <quintopia> metasepia: would you mind parsing the metar line for us poor folk who don't know all the codes?
18:42:12 <boily> quintopia: did you just make that horrible pun?
18:42:40 <boily> the process is still very much manual. which one do you want to be decoded?
18:42:45 <metasepia> KPDK 121753Z 31020G26KT 9SM FEW041 14/05 A3018 RMK AO2 PK WND 31026/1752 SLP223 T01390050 10167 20028 50000
18:43:09 <quintopia> metasepia: you are aware you can incorporate new metar parsing code that has been ALREADY WRITTEN from github right?
18:44:10 <boily> >_>... <_<... ¬_¬'... v_v;...
18:44:19 <metasepia> KLZU 121745Z 28010G18KT 10SM CLR 17/01 A3012 RMK ATIS K; RWY 25 LL
18:45:17 <quintopia> Wind: True direction = 280 degrees, Speed: 10 knots, with Gusts of maximum speed 18 knots
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18:47:06 <quintopia> the units are all mixed up. why would you measure temperature in Celsius but pressure in inHg?
18:47:08 <boily> sure it's the QNH? I always figured Axxxx was the QFE.
18:47:25 <boily> quintopia: because it is so. the SLPxxx group is in hPa, too.
18:47:54 <quintopia> this decoder should have like a selector for units and do conversions
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19:01:36 <HackEgo> nathnath: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:07:18 * boily mutters and swears and fevers and is not happy
20:07:22 <metasepia> Your divination: "Brightness Hiding" to "Pervading"
20:12:44 -!- Bike has joined.
20:12:51 * quintopia writes a postcard for boily to happy him
20:16:44 <boily> meanwhile, any Dutch and/or Flemish speakers here?
20:16:52 <boily> @tell Koen_ where have you disappeared?
20:17:07 <quintopia> i know where you can find some of those
20:17:48 <quintopia> on this network, i'm pretty sure l-b is dutch and The_Cat is belgian so..
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20:22:29 <fizzie> Semantics. I told Scribblenauts to make a "great drummer", and it made a ridiculously big one.
20:22:29 <boily> nooodl: iirc, you are of a belgianic persuasion?
20:22:35 <nooodl> i'm a belgian dutch-speaker! i hear there is great request for us
20:23:31 <boily> nooodl: uhm... well, you see... there's that frivolous comment on reddit, and I was wondering if that guy was saying the Truth or he was «en train de nous péter de la broue».
20:23:34 <boily> http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/1qgwc7/to_all_who_havent_yet_read_mark_twains/
20:24:24 <ion> fizzie: :-)
20:24:42 <Taneb> Today I helped make a tower out of spaghetti and jelly babies
20:24:58 <ion> fizzie: I have noticed you can solve amazingly many problems with an infant. Someone’s hungry? Feed him an infant. Etc.
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20:25:15 <nooodl> boily: hottentottententententoonstelling is quite famous as a jokey long word, around here!
20:25:41 <boily> Taneb: the jellies were the for the spaghetti to be stuck into, right?
20:26:18 <nooodl> i'd heard Rabarberbararabierenbarbarenbaardenbarbier and that one is relatively easy for me to read
20:26:31 <nooodl> "Hermafrodietestestestestestafette" requires some imagination...
20:26:33 <boily> engineering for the win!
20:26:48 <Taneb> 102cm in 10 minutes
20:28:06 <nooodl> i think the last two are spelled wrong
20:28:25 * FireFly doesn't even know how to begin to lex that
20:28:52 <nooodl> should be verververververfverversing i think?
20:29:08 <nooodl> wait i'm missing a "ver-"
20:29:21 * boily is terrified by nooodl.
20:30:42 <nooodl> lemme break this down. "verven" is "to paint". one who paints is a "verver". one who paints far ("ver") is a "ververver".
20:31:10 <myname> which language is this?
20:31:16 <nooodl> "vers" means "fresh." a refreshment is a "verversing". hi this is dutch
20:31:37 <fizzie> ion: Yes, it seems to be rather... flexible. There was an orphan needing something to calm down, and feeding her sedatives worked like a charm.
20:31:40 <myname> nooodl: you meant rhabarberbarbarabarbarbarenbartbarbierbierbar?
20:32:20 <nooodl> a "paint refreshment" (verf + verversing) would be a "verfverversing", not a "*ververversing", which i think is where the poster messed up?
20:33:23 <boily> fizzie: I hope you're talking about Dwarf Fortress or something similar?
20:34:35 <nooodl> i don't know where "wrong" comes from but i think it's a loose translation of what the "ver-" prefix means for some verbs
20:35:24 <nooodl> such as "vergissen", to be mistaken, from "ver-" (wrong) + "gissen" (guess)
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20:39:50 <boily> see, you once again killed lambdabot.
20:40:31 <int-e> it'll be back in a moment
20:40:41 <int-e> it just takes ages to rejoin all the channels it's on
20:40:52 <int-e> and in any case, *I* killed it :)
20:41:13 <boily> how? are you Gregor?
20:41:35 <Gregor> Why do people think I have any connection to lambdabot >_<
20:41:37 <int-e> And who's Gregor ;-)
20:42:03 <Gregor> `echo Functional languages are for losers lul pwn
20:42:04 <HackEgo> Functional languages are for losers lul pwn
20:42:16 <quintopia> Gregor: you are renouned for your secret and undetectable DDOS attacks
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20:44:33 <boily> int-e: Gregor is kinda like elliott. they have authority over the chännel. hth.
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20:44:55 <Gregor> I don't have any authority over the channel either *_*
20:45:27 <int-e> boily: I hoped that the smiley would help to avoid such comments.
20:45:37 <quintopia> so you better not give him any respect
20:47:02 <boily> int-e: I'm enrhumé. comments and smileys may not be understood.
20:47:40 <fizzie> ion: Yeah, I just gave a cannibal an infant to eat.
20:48:16 <boily> quintopia: with a cold.
20:51:26 <fizzie> ion: Also I put a bug into a pizza. "That pizza looks delicious!"
20:51:46 <mrhmouse> fizzie: Now I want to play this game
20:52:25 <fizzie> mrhmouse: It's in the latest Humble Bundle, if you're interested.
20:52:52 <ion> http://youtu.be/GX0F3AHU264
20:53:10 <ion> Scribblenauts: Place someone who knows how to cook in the kitchen!
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20:53:45 <fizzie> ion: I also just made a phoenix out of fire, a chicken, and a phoenix.
20:53:53 <fizzie> The last is a good source for magical power!
20:54:07 <Taneb> ion, does it work with "man"?
20:54:25 <ion> taneb: Yes, but let’s not mention it, that makes it less funny.
20:55:32 <Taneb> Does it work with "chocolatier"?
20:55:39 <Taneb> Or however you spell that
20:56:42 <ion> Scribblenauts apparently knows the word, so it should work. http://scribblenauts.wikia.com/wiki/Chocolatier
20:59:09 * boily sings «Un chocolat, deux chocolats, trois chocolats, quatre chocolats ♪»
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21:08:31 <mrhmouse> fizzie: does the latest HB include Linux games? I can't look at it while at work
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21:09:24 <fizzie> mrhmouse: Sadly, no. It's one of these "not-so-indie" bundles.
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21:10:54 <fizzie> mrhmouse: (It's a WB Games bundle, containing Scribblenauts Unlimited, the two Batman: Arkham Whatever games, and two of something called F.E.A.R., as well as the LOTR: War in the North game.)
21:11:34 <fizzie> (Oh, and Scribblenauts is on the "pay more than the average" side too.)
21:12:04 <ion> Scribblenauts works perfectly in Wine.
21:12:19 <ion> Unfortunately, the Batman games apparently don’t, so i didn’t buy the bundle.
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21:12:24 <ion> I already have Scribblenauts.
21:12:42 <Taneb> I have the first scribblenauts game, not any of the sequels though
21:13:06 <fizzie> I mostly bought it for Scribbels. I don't have any aspirations of Batmanity.
21:13:41 <Taneb> Guns of Icarus Online and Dwarf Fortress are my games atm
21:13:55 <ion> I was disappointed with the description of the newest Scribblenauts game. It’s a battle game now.
21:14:26 <ion> Haven’t tried it, though. Perhaps it doesn’t suck.
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21:19:00 <kmc> <fizzie> ion: Yeah, I just gave a cannibal an infant to eat. <--- scribblenauts against humanity?
21:22:57 <mrhmouse> Disappointing.. I don't use Wine. Oh well, I'm not bored with Kerbal Space Program just yet.
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21:39:14 <ion> Sigh, shachaf. Sachaf.
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22:11:00 <Taneb> I really want to hear an Around The World/Around The World Red Hot Chilli Peppers/Daft Punk mashup
22:12:34 <Taneb> (the Daft Punk song has the better lyrics)
22:13:48 <Bike> daft punk has lyrics?
22:14:24 <Bike> ok i looked it up on a lyrics site and it rules
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22:18:01 <zzo38> Have you written any just intonation chiptune music? It seems suitable for such thing.
22:19:45 <Bike> matlab profiler claims 54.862 of the 55.404 second runtime was spent in "java.util.concurren.LinkedBlockingQueue". mildly skeptical here
22:19:48 <zzo38> (I have done so in Famicom Hangman, and instead of using A=440Hz, adjusted the tuning so that the notes would have the exact pitch I wanted and don't have to be detuned.)
22:23:57 <kmc> java and matlab: two great tastes that taste great together
22:24:02 <kmc> also how does that even work
22:24:09 <kmc> shachaf: how goes
22:24:11 <Taneb> Okay, that's a mondegreen that completely changes the meaning of the song
22:24:24 <Bike> iunno. you can call out to java and stuff.
22:24:41 <Bike> all this means is that the profiler has no goddamn clue what to do with parallel code, which is unsurprising
22:24:54 <Taneb> Touch by Daft Punk, "If love is the answer you're home." => "If love is the answer you're wrong."
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22:27:26 <Taneb> Turns it from slightly regretful to really really bitter
22:27:43 <Bike> wow, one run calls this not-built-in function one and a half million times
22:27:53 <Bike> profiling is fun.
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22:31:42 <Bike> this thing is so fancy, it highlights lines hat took up more time in a deeper shade of red
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22:40:51 <ion> I prefer filers
22:44:18 <shachaf> ion: you should teach Taneb about categories
22:44:58 <ion> Categories are like chili con carne
22:45:22 <ion> Semigroupoids are like the vegetarian version
22:45:54 <Taneb> Doesn't con carne mean "with meat"
22:46:10 <Taneb> So, vegetarian chili con carne is... just chili
22:46:20 <Taneb> Possibly chili con quorn
22:46:31 <shachaf> Taneb: so of course you can also think of that category as one where the objects are R^n and the arrows are linear functions
22:46:57 <shachaf> Taneb: "chili sin carne", ı think.
22:47:13 <ion> con textured soy protein or something
22:47:52 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't think you can, in the case of non-square matrices
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22:49:24 <zzo38> There is Penrose tensor diagrams, which can be applicable to matrices, although I think they can be applicable to tensor categories too (which features of the diagram are available depends on what features the category has)
22:49:52 <nooodl> shachaf: you dropped one of these --> .
22:50:12 <Taneb> (I noticed that matrix multiplication formed a category when one of my lecturers demonstrated that set relations can be defined in terms of them)
22:50:28 <shachaf> Taneb: A linear function : R^n -> R^m.
22:50:56 <Taneb> shachaf, maybe I'm just insufficiently familiar with linear functions
22:51:38 <zzo38> I also notice that matrix multiplication forms a category, but not for that reason.
22:52:39 <shachaf> Taneb: A linear function between two vector spaces is a function f such that f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y); f(rx) = r*f(x)
22:52:47 <shachaf> Where x and y are vectors and r is a scalar.
22:53:35 <shachaf> You can generally represent them as matrices.
22:54:31 <zzo38> I noticed because of Penrose diagrammatic tensor notation. Do you know about Penrose diagrammatic tensor notation?
22:54:59 <zzo38> (There is a Wikipedia article, in case you do not know.)
22:55:14 <shachaf> It looks like string diagrams.
22:56:58 <Taneb> I think when the entries of the matrices are in the two-element boolean algebra this category is identical to Rel
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22:57:51 <Taneb> Like, matrix multiplication is defined when the things in the matrix are a semiring
22:58:29 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes I noticed that it is when they are a semiring. (I did not notice if it is identical to Rel, though)
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22:58:57 <Taneb> {F, T}, + = ∨, * = ∧ 0 = F, 1 = T forms a semiring
22:59:25 <zzo38> OK, yes I know that too.
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22:59:58 <kmc> the scalar of a vector space has to be a field
23:00:34 <kmc> but if you want it to be only a ring then you can talk about modules instead of vector spaces
23:00:50 <shachaf> well you can just yes that
23:01:11 <Taneb> What about when you're talking about the module over a ring D of differential operators
23:01:12 <shachaf> did you know a Z-module is the same thing as an abelian group
23:01:20 <kmc> i'm reading that now
23:01:28 <kmc> but I have to eat breakfast instead of understanding it
23:01:30 <shachaf> someone told me that one week ago
23:01:39 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa, dude, that's some serious inventioning going on right here
23:01:42 <kmc> maybe i will have chile con carne
23:01:43 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
23:02:14 <shachaf> kmc: chile is p. far from korea
23:02:47 <kmc> the antipode of Formosa, Republic of China is Formosa, Argentina
23:03:03 <Bike> Is Penrose notation as annoying as Einstein's
23:03:14 <shachaf> are antipodes related to octopodes
23:03:15 <zzo38> What is Einstein's?
23:03:33 <Taneb> Anyway, when the matrix is filled with these {F, T} (rather than ℝ), I think this category is equivalent to Rel
23:03:41 <Bike> zzo38: einstein summation notation i mean
23:04:06 <zzo38> Bike: I am not aware of such notation.
23:04:50 <Bike> there is a wikipedia article
23:05:02 <shachaf> Bike: that's the notation where you just don't write the sigma, right
23:05:09 <shachaf> and you just gotta know it's there
23:05:47 <shachaf> might as well drop the expression too
23:05:58 <Bike> "look fuck you, i'm Einstein"
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23:48:24 <Bike> matlab's help cites "Nineteen Dubious Ways to Compute the Exponential of a Matrix"
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01:35:58 <oerjan> <ion> Semigroupoids are like the vegetarian version <-- i don't see the need for the term semigroupoid, since categories are identical.
01:41:42 <kmc> i prefer non-associative semigroupoids
01:45:40 <ion> oerjan: Uh, i thought semigroupoids are categories sans id. But i probably remember incorrectly.
01:45:49 <kmc> "On Windows, we cannot make a flie named 'aux'. So It doesn't make src/components/main/layout/aux.rs on Win"
01:45:52 <kmc> best platform ever
01:46:27 <oerjan> the top hit for magmoid is relevant, dunno about the rest.
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01:49:27 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, AUX is a DOS device name in Windows. So is CON, PRN, COM1, COM2, LPT1, etc. Yes it can be a problem, such as that one.
01:50:27 <kmc> who here remembers <img src="file:///con/con">
01:50:49 <zzo38> They should have perhaps used a symbol at front which isn't used in actual filenames, in DOS 1.0, but that isn't what they did.
01:51:20 <kmc> <a target="_blank" href="about:while(1){window.open(document.src)}">click here</a>
01:51:34 <kmc> 90s Kids Remember These 12 IE5 DoS Exploits
01:52:31 <zzo38> I have done in some versions of ZZT, made a link to CON in a menu, which caused strange things to happen. In the latest version I believe that bug is fixed and a link to CON is an error.
01:52:55 <oerjan> ion: that is correct. thus semigroupoids are not identical, but categories are.
01:58:56 <ion> oerjan: Oooh, i see what you did there.
01:59:51 <oerjan> puns: sometimes they get too deep and sink
02:00:20 <ion> Especially funpuns
02:00:51 <kmc> i sunk columbus, oh
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02:07:10 <Sgeo> Are there any good amateur philosophy subreddits? I get the impression that /r/philosophy isn't one. I want to rant about how "same" is a silly concept
02:07:56 <kmc> "amateur philosophy subreddit" ;_;
02:08:21 <oerjan> kmc: i think we need to find such a subreddit to ask whether it's ethical to answer that question
02:08:50 <kmc> do you enjoy arguing with programmers who have never taken a philosophy class or read a book but think that they're automatically an expert because humanities are for dumb people
02:08:51 <ion> kmc: Not just any amateur, *good* amateur.
02:09:33 <Sgeo> Also, kmc, I have a criticism of Rust in regards to macros
02:09:34 <kmc> at least when they do this about philosophy it's of no real consequence to anyone
02:10:09 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophers seems empty
02:10:28 <oerjan> (based on r/askhistorians, it was the obvious place)
02:10:48 <Sgeo> "To make this behavior more obvious, the rule has been made that use-statement always need to be written before any declaration, like in the example above. This is a purely artificial rule introduced because people always assumed they shadowed each other based on order, despite the fact that all items in rust are mutually recursive, order independent definitions."
02:11:34 <Sgeo> Having artificial restrictions like this could hinder the ability for macros to emit such code without regard to their location in the file, or mixing two separate macros that both expand to use-statements and declarations
02:11:48 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy looks promising
02:11:59 <Sgeo> I think I'm lagging a bit
02:12:22 <kmc> Sgeo: interesting
02:12:29 <kmc> I'm not sure that macros can even emit "use" items at the moment
02:12:31 <kmc> but I think they can
02:12:35 <kmc> rust-http generates whole modules from macros
02:12:53 <kmc> btw, another confusing consequence of that is "use foo::Bar; ...; mod foo;"
02:12:57 <kmc> it must be in that order and not the other
02:13:16 <Sgeo> I think there's another similar artificial restriction that's related (external mod, I think?) but same concept/concern
02:14:01 <kmc> "mod foo;" is a definition and not just a declaration; it creates a module named "foo", but it grabs the module contents from an external file foo.rs and so it doesn't really "look like" a definition
02:16:03 <shachaf> Sgeo: you should start reddit.com/r/Sgeo
02:16:59 <Sgeo> shachaf: that's such a good idea, I'll hop in my time machine and do it a year ago
02:17:54 <Sgeo> (I wanted to see what the mod tools were like)
02:18:36 <shachaf> i was hoping for a place full of Sgeoy things
02:18:47 <shachaf> such as «Are there any good amateur philosophy subreddits? I get the impression that /r/philosophy isn't one. I want to rant about how "same" is a silly concept»
02:18:59 <oerjan> shachaf: are you sure this would be safe?
02:18:59 <Bike> did sgeo say that
02:19:27 <oerjan> Bike: well he said the same thing
02:19:44 <Bike> oh, indeed he did
02:20:07 <Bike> a good amateur philosophy subreddit presumes good amateur philosophy
02:20:08 <oerjan> whether this means he said that, you'll have to ask an amateur philosopher.
02:20:17 <shachaf> Bike: well, it could be empty
02:20:39 <oerjan> shachaf: for the universe. maybe it would turn reddit into a black hole or something.
02:20:52 <Bike> could make /r/BikeGetsOwned. only user is shachaf
02:21:01 <Bike> just constantly burning me left and right
02:21:59 * oerjan remembers to drink his irange juice
02:22:00 <shachaf> the other day i found reddit.com/r/magicskyfairy which seems to be a sort of improvement on reddit.com/r/atheism
02:22:19 <oerjan> i don't know what that is, i thought it was orange but the keyboard doesn't lie
02:22:52 <shachaf> the true spirit of reddit, i think
02:23:13 <kmc> haha an improvement on /r/atheism
02:23:45 <oerjan> /r/atheism, now with blackjack and hookers
02:24:17 <shachaf> kmc: hard to believe, i know
02:27:28 <zzo38> I have heard a lot, many people think of "God" as the "magic sky fairy" and is why those people don't believe in such things. Other people are not so dumb. And learn ignosticism too.
02:28:33 <oerjan> <shachaf> are antipodes related to octopodes <-- whatever you do, don't mix them, especially not in 8:1 proportion
02:29:36 <ion> Hey, i heat my house with that energy.
02:30:35 <oerjan> also you get a nice tan from the gamma rays?
02:32:05 <kmc> i get really nervous whenever I add an rm -rf rule to a makefile
02:34:01 <kmc> zzo38: I don't think it's *why* those people don't believe in a god, it's just a way to make fun of people who do
02:34:41 <zzo38> kmc: Probably you are correct at least in some cases. I don't know if it is true in all cases.
02:34:51 <kmc> i dislike religion immensely but that kind of mockery is probably bad and unhelpful
02:35:11 <zzo38> I think you are correct, it isn't very helpful.
02:35:42 <kmc> one thing that most of the Angry Internet Atheists tend to miss is that religions fulfill like 30 different social roles, many of which have nothing to do with superstition or metaphysics
02:35:51 <kmc> the fact that they are tied up with superstition and metaphysics is historical baggage
02:36:05 <zzo38> Yes, that is true too, you do make the good points too
02:39:32 <prooftechnique> I think ignosticism should be a thing. You just don't think about the existence of god
02:39:43 <kmc> it is a thing
02:39:47 <kmc> zzo38 just recommended it
02:39:58 <kmc> (I've heard it called "apatheism" as well)
02:40:09 <Bike> it actually means the belief that questions of theism can't be dealt with without an adequate definition of 'god' etc
02:40:14 <kmc> there are other positions like, "whether god exists is an ill-posed question"
02:40:33 <kmc> which is different from "i don't care" and also different from the traditional agnostic "we can't ever know"
02:40:43 <kmc> "whether god exists is independent of the axioms of ZFC"
02:40:52 <zzo38> Bike: Yes that is what I meant
02:41:11 <Bike> kmc: [gödel joke]
02:41:37 <kmc> but of course we can talk about systems ZFC+Θ and ZFC+¬Θ
02:41:53 <zzo38> Yes I think that is correct, whether or not God exists is an ill-posed question.
02:42:03 <kmc> can God create a statement of number theory which is so self referential that even He cannot prove or disprove it
02:42:57 <kmc> I assume that Gödel actually said something about that at some point
02:42:59 <kmc> anyone know what?
02:43:20 <Bike> oh, i was referring to godel's attempted proof of god's existence
02:43:28 <kmc> yeah I figured
02:44:00 <kmc> lexande: do you know if he said anything about it?
02:44:21 <kmc> I guess it is similar to other simpler theological puzzles such as, can god create an object which is both light and heavy
02:44:28 <kmc> or a glass which is both empty and full
02:44:39 <kmc> (can god create an object whose inertial mass differs from its gravitational mass?)
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02:46:10 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose they might be possible, but not in this universe (by definition)
02:46:28 <kmc> can god create a new universe where naive set theory is consistent
02:46:37 <Bike> a philosopher buddy of mine happened to be reading a book on godel's philosophical influences, perhaps it is relevant http://www.amazon.com/After-Godel-Platonism-Rationalism-Mathematics/dp/019960620X
02:46:59 <Bike> as for that, i <3 psychologism~
02:47:04 <zzo38> kmc: But set theory is mathematics, not physics. Therefore the question is wrong.
02:47:07 <kmc> yeah i don't "read books" or anything like this
02:47:41 <kmc> zzo38: oh?
02:48:10 <lexande> zzo38: uh, i think that's explicitly the question
02:48:22 <lexande> of whether maths had to be the same in all "universes"
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02:48:44 <zzo38> I think it does have to be the same.
02:49:10 <lexande> how about the fact that YHWH apparenly thinks that pi=3.0?
02:49:18 <kmc> prooftechnique: I guess my view is a form of agnosticism, in that I believe any evidence of God which is admissible to a finite mind would be better explained (c.f. occam's razor) with beings of finite power instead
02:49:23 <kmc> "god doesn't exist, aliens are just fucking with you"
02:49:25 <zzo38> lexande: That is simply an error in the Bible.
02:49:39 <zzo38> Any book can contain errors.
02:49:56 <kmc> prooftechnique: so I can't assert "there is no god" but i have no reason to believe there is one, and I never could
02:50:04 <lexande> zzo38: so i'd say that no universe where naive set theory is consistent exists
02:50:13 <lexande> but i think this relies heavily on my definition of "exists"
02:50:13 <kmc> zzo38: many people believe quite explicitly that the Bible is exempt from that fact about books
02:50:17 <prooftechnique> kmc: I can get down with a little Lovecraftian theology, sure
02:50:23 <kmc> prooftechnique: heh is that what we call it
02:50:52 <zzo38> However if you say God created that, God did that, deliberately, accidentally, by choice, by having no choice, etc, it is just metaphorical and why should we think it is applicable to God in the same way it is to us? Probably it isn't.
02:50:59 <lexande> kmc: how about the statement that you're in a simulation?
02:51:08 <Bike> could naive set theory be consistent in this cardboard box right here
02:51:17 <prooftechnique> That sounds exciting because maybe there are cheat codes
02:51:21 <zzo38> People think of God as a Person, but that is silly and stupid.
02:51:47 <kmc> lexande: hmm, it depends on what you mean by "simulation"
02:51:47 <zzo38> Still it can be a metaphor when some people draw the picture (which is a representation, as inaccurate as others); it is not the kind of metaphor I prefer however.
02:51:54 <Bike> lexande: are you sure. have you even seen the box!
02:52:09 <lexande> Bike: does the cardboard box exist? if so then i'm sure
02:52:11 <Bike> it's pretty nice. filled with books. books i like, so objectively good
02:52:29 <Bike> you're that sure huh
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02:52:43 <prooftechnique> The Weak Axiom of the Cardboard Box says it might be consistent in a certain neighborhood of the box.
02:52:56 <prooftechnique> The Axiom of the Weak Cardboard Box says that the box might fall apart under stress.
02:52:57 <Bike> in which topology
02:53:04 <oerjan> prooftechnique: http://lesswrong.com/lw/qk/
02:53:23 <kmc> lexande: if I take a red pill and trip balls and emerge naked from a pod of alien goo, I'll probably conclude that I was in a simulation before, but maybe aliens are just tricking me, but if their trick is sufficiently advanced then maybe it counts as a simulation too
02:53:47 <Bike> i suppose i could have said "why is 'X theory is consistent' a statement you make about places" directly but i like boxes
02:54:03 <zzo38> What is the simulation in, then?
02:54:24 <lexande> kmc: how do you decide whether pre or post red pill is the simulation?
02:54:32 <lexande> and who is emerging from the pod
02:55:09 <kmc> valid questions too
02:55:13 <lexande> but anyway i'm specifically considering the statement that the whole universe is more or less how it looks except it's a simulation inside a larger universe
02:55:16 <kmc> "I" is a leaky abstraction
02:55:33 <lexande> and it seems like no evidence could convince me of that for the same reason none could convince me of god
02:55:38 <kmc> yeah, maybe
02:55:38 <Bike> which is good, because it allows some p. cool exploits
02:55:41 <kmc> I will think about that more
02:55:54 <lexande> and yet it seems odd to assign that statement extremely small probability
02:56:07 <lexande> given the arguments about how the universe is probably a simulation, etc
02:56:16 <Bike> oh, hey, i read a nice paper about this once, let me see if i can find it again
02:56:30 <zzo38> I don't think the universe is a simulation, although I cannot discard that hypothesis.
02:56:33 <Bike> people write papers about brains in vats all the time though :/
02:56:34 <lexande> so i think i have to say that "the universe is a simulation" is not a meaningful statement, since only things in the universe "are"
02:56:44 <elliott> kmc: I think the problem is that "naive set theory" refers to something within this universe.
02:56:46 <zzo38> What is universe in, anyways?
02:56:53 <elliott> if you assume mathematics can vary over universes then "naive set theory" as a concept is local to this one
02:57:14 <Bike> here it is, drevil.pdf
02:57:24 <lexande> zzo38: what evidence might cause you to increase or decrease your confidence in that hypothesis?
02:57:27 <Bike> naive set theory is local to this box
02:57:48 <prooftechnique> Bike: So the Axioms of the Cardboard Box are consistent
02:57:52 <zzo38> I assume mathematics is fixed and cannot vary over universes. However, if a mathematical theory is inconsistent (i.e. all well-formed statements are theorems) then it isn't a Mathematical Truth.
02:57:55 <kmc> we should find some actual space aliens and ask them what their mathematics is like
02:57:56 <lexande> how do you compare the probability of the universe being a simulation with the probability of in-universe aliens trolling you
02:58:02 <Bike> "Defeating Dr. Evil with self-locating belief", if anyone's interested.
02:58:04 <lexande> zzo38: you ever dream maths?
02:58:19 <lexande> when i dream maths it's all wrong
02:58:28 <Bike> kmc: i have a fantasy of running some AI simulations and seeing what they can come up with under various developmental schemes.
02:58:34 <zzo38> Yes I sometimes to dream about mathematical things
02:58:38 <lexande> things feel like proofs that certainly are not proofs
02:58:57 <lexande> which i find deeply disconcerting
02:59:16 <Bike> Dr Evil is about, uh, "Dr. Evil learns that a duplicate of Dr. Evil has been created. Upon learning this, how seriously should he take the hypothesis that he himself is that duplicate?"
02:59:18 <kmc> i had a dream where I discovered a security flaw in a real software system and it turned out to be real
02:59:29 <zzo38> And I notice that some of the "illogical" things in my dreaming are actually logical if you use the wrong kind of logic.
02:59:47 <Bike> wrong kind, huh.
02:59:52 <lexande> the reasoning in my dreams is consistently nonsense
02:59:54 <zzo38> kmc: I think something similar may have happened to me, but I am unsure.
03:00:01 <lexande> and with that, i'm going to take a nap
03:00:09 <zzo38> Yes the reasoning is sometimes nonsense.
03:00:09 <kmc> enjoy, lexande
03:00:21 <Bike> prooftechnique: well, one of them is being tortured.
03:00:25 <kmc> prooftechnique: one and then the other
03:00:30 <Bike> also man i'm glad i'm not a mathematician because i would not fit in
03:00:42 <zzo38> However I am distinguishing between logic (which is mathematics) and reasoning (which is informal thinking, and should be logical).
03:01:13 <prooftechnique> Which, as I understand it, is what most people do, just not about math
03:01:29 <Bike> yeah, i do that about parts of china and caterpillar legs.
03:01:39 <zzo38> By "wrong kind of logic", I mean for example linear logic where classical logic would be a better model in real situations, and vice versa, and other similar kind of things too.
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03:02:23 <prooftechnique> If everyone turned all their nervous energy to some light mathematics, there'd be some neat stuff to show for it :D
03:02:50 <Bike> three billion proofs of the parallel postulate from the other axioms
03:14:02 <zzo38> An example of something that doesn't follow ordinary logic, but may be logical in other kinds of logic, in my dreams, may be the one where I had the belief that I (as my character in the dream) had never been there but that I (as myself) had been to that place before, and these beliefs could not be combined in my reasoning. (As it turns out, the second belief is also untrue, but I believed it while I was asleep.)
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03:15:16 <zzo38> Despite being strange (and clearly incorrect), it still appears perfectly logical to me, just using the "wrong kind of logic".
03:19:48 <zzo38> Do you have dreams like that too?
03:20:40 <Bike> why do you think math "does have to be the same [in all universes]", i'm curious
03:21:02 <Bike> i mostly dream about being very afraid
03:22:34 <zzo38> Because mathematics is the *real* reality.
03:22:43 <Bike> why do you think that?
03:22:46 <zzo38> Bike: Very afraid? If anything in particular?
03:23:04 <Bike> the things i'm afraid of aren't very constant between dreams, no
03:23:31 <zzo38> But what are they for instance? Do you know? Or is just being afraid in general?
03:23:45 * Bike looks at constant
03:24:25 <Bike> zzo38: one time, it was a virtual reality character, an imperial japanese soldier who had strapped himself with explosives. for example.
03:24:51 <Bike> another time it was the concept of dreaming. another time it was a big thing that looked like a displacer beast made of half-cooked meat
03:25:46 <zzo38> When I am dreaming of being afraid of something (which isn't common), it is almost always other people trying to push me or rescue me or something, it seems.
03:26:54 <oerjan> prooftechnique: also, http://qntm.org/responsibility :)
03:27:50 <prooftechnique> oerjan: https://sites.google.com/site/asenselessconversation/
03:28:51 <prooftechnique> oerjan: Also, did you hear about Google/NASA's quantum computer?
03:29:28 <oerjan> um did they buy one of those d-wave things that are _possibly_ sort of qc but not the "real" thing
03:30:20 <oerjan> (aaronson at shtetl-optimized likes to criticize them)
03:31:44 <oerjan> iirc from his last post about it, they cannot do "real" quantum algorithms and the evidence that what they can do is hard with classical computers is increasingly weak
03:55:11 <Sgeo> kmc: should I comment on my Rust thoughts elsewhere?
03:55:28 <Bike> perhaps you could use the rust channel
03:56:08 <Sgeo> I could bring it up in the Rust channe;
03:58:11 <Sgeo> I feel awkward being on the Mozilla IRC network while being a Chrome user
03:58:29 <Bike> it's in your user-agent, they can deal!
03:59:04 <zzo38> Disable VERSION then.
04:05:14 <Sgeo> kmc: fwiw, a thing I do think I like about Rust is its do syntax. As readable as Ruby, without an actual physical distinction, just syntactic sugar
04:37:59 <kmc> 'for' used to be similarly superficial sugar
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04:38:15 <kmc> for a call with a lambda
04:38:16 <kmc> but it didn't work out so well, so now it's sugar for calling .next() repeatedly
04:38:40 <kmc> not such a big deal to consumers, but implementing an object with a .next() method is a lot more work than implementing a function that takes a function
04:38:58 <kmc> (the reasons for switching were composability and performance, I think)
04:39:06 <zzo38> I often don't like to knock out opponent's active pokemon cards.
04:39:13 <kmc> C++ lambdas can do something Rust lambdas can't which is inline into the function they're passed to
04:40:00 <kmc> in C++ you can do void f(std::function<void ()> g) but you can *also* do template <typename G> void f(G g) and the latter will enable such optimizations
04:40:27 <kmc> with Rust if you want the latter you need to define and implement a trait
04:41:06 <kmc> Sgeo: I dunno, if you have specific questions or suggestions you could take them to #rust on irc.mozilla.org
04:42:35 <Sgeo> Already did, someone commented on my mentioning the restriction, but not my comment about how it affects macros
04:42:52 <kmc> you could press on that point?
04:42:55 <kmc> i thought it was an interesting point
04:43:14 <Sgeo> I don't know how to do that without being rude
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04:46:47 <quintopia> i give this article an eight of ten. most enlightening. http://krazydad.com/tutorials/makecolors.php
04:47:31 <oerjan> prooftechnique: reading your senseless conversation link now, i think i guessed pretty quickly where this is going...
04:53:29 <Sgeo> kmc: are you in the chat?
04:53:50 <kmc> not paying attention atm
04:57:47 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_16/pokemon_card_never_switch.png As it turns out both of us had the same active pokemon card during the entire duel, never shifting or getting knocked out. (I knocked out their bench pokemon cards though; the AI is really bad.)
05:04:00 <quintopia> oerjan: i am amused by the idea of hofstadter administrating the test tho :D
05:07:59 <oklopol> zzo38: the symbols look like a mess, how can you read that?
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05:08:55 <zzo38> oklopol: I can read it, I can tell you its meaning: Side card, Active pokemon card, Number of cards remaining in draw pile.
05:09:18 <oklopol> i could read up to side card
05:09:58 <zzo38> Well, now you know the rest too. Yes the kanji is in a small resolution that is hard to read, but I know what they mean in this context anyways.
05:11:58 <zzo38> But that is what it means in this context.
05:13:49 <zzo38> Do you play Pokemon card? It would be more understandable to someone who does.
05:16:21 <zzo38> What games can you play in Japanese? Shogi? Mahjong?
05:16:55 <oklopol> no i mean i play the language itself
05:17:02 <oklopol> in the sense of pretending to learn it
05:17:21 <oklopol> well i've played some mahjong obviously
05:17:29 <zzo38> Pretending to learn it?
05:17:45 <zzo38> Is it Japanese mahjong? Do you know Washizu mahjong?
05:18:41 <oklopol> i just know the mahjong computer game, it's a kind of solitaire
05:18:50 <oklopol> you have to remove pairs until the heap runs out
05:19:19 <zzo38> Yes, mahjong solitaire, I know that one, but that isn't the real mahjong game, it is just the mahjong solitaire, using the same tiles
05:19:53 <zzo38> The true mahjong game is 4 players game.
05:19:55 <oklopol> what's the actual mahjong like
05:20:12 <oklopol> there's like four winds and stuff
05:20:36 <oklopol> and like a great wall made from the pieces maybe_
05:20:55 <zzo38> Yes, usually there is. (Sometimes a bag is used instead.)
05:21:09 <zzo38> There is many different variants, such as Chinese game, Japanese game, etc.
05:21:44 <oklopol> dunno which one was in the big book of random games i read once
05:22:25 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-machine okey doke
05:30:57 <oerjan> <quintopia> oerjan: i am amused by the idea of hofstadter administrating the test tho :D <-- oh, i didn't notice the first name coincidence.
05:31:38 <quintopia> coincidence? i'd guess intentional. it's not like Zongker is much of a computational philosopher
05:46:21 <augur> surely you know the answer to my question
05:46:45 <oerjan> hide the finnish grammars!
05:46:49 <augur> how can we probe a formal language for word-word interactions without knowing the grammar or the class of grammars involved?
05:47:48 <oklopol> well that's easy but you don't know enough flexo-flamigold theory to understand it so no can do
05:48:16 <Bike> probe like, how? temperature?
05:48:32 <augur> Bike: yes, temperature
05:54:09 <FireFly> oklopol: it's more-or-less like canasta, if you've played that
06:01:00 <oklopol> but kanasta means "from a chicken" in finnish
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06:17:07 <zzo38> Yes, it is somewhat like canasta and other rummy games.
06:17:27 <zzo38> Although there are actually many significant differences.
06:20:44 <zzo38> I made up a new esolang http://esolangs.org/wiki/B-tapemark
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07:33:23 <shachaf> Bike: so imo the "finite observations" business is a sensible way to understnd continuity
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07:54:48 <lexande> oerjan: in re http://lesswrong.com/lw/qk/ , https://twitter.com/HardSciFiMovies/status/396699827414646784
07:54:58 <lexande> (though i realise that's kind of missing the point)
07:56:18 <kmc> that was a plot point in the movie also
07:57:00 <oerjan> lexande: that's based on the Matrix movies though (duh), not yudkowsky
07:57:32 <kmc> should i read more lesswrong sci fi
07:57:35 <kmc> it seems p. interesting
07:57:56 <lexande> the only yudkowsky sci fi i know about is this and the one with the babyeaters and superhappies and hpmor
08:00:12 <lexande> "If you have a sexual fetish for people who have a fetish for recursion, and they have a fetish for people with a fetish for recursion, the two of you have a fetish for each other via Lob's Theorem."
08:01:34 <lexande> kmc: i haven't seen any other fiction on lesswrong than those yudkowksy things but i haven't looked
08:04:34 <shachaf> oerjan: where should i eat pizza if i visit .no
08:05:25 <oerjan> the latest HardSciFiMovies happens in a world close to you
08:05:53 <oerjan> shachaf: i see you think i have taste
08:06:08 <oerjan> alternative answer: you can't afford norwegian food anyhow.
08:06:53 <shachaf> i hear good norwegian pizza costs $30 or something?
08:08:40 <oerjan> i can tell you the two biggest pizza chains i know of, but i cannot remember if they're considered _good_: peppe'?s pizza and dolly dimple's
08:09:18 <oerjan> (actually dolly's has a bit unusual cheese mix)
08:09:40 <oerjan> also norwegians have lousy taste in food in general.
08:10:30 <oerjan> by which i mean, i'm not very discerning.
08:10:32 <kmc> lexande: I support research into further applications of modal logic in this domain
08:12:03 <oerjan> oh and i should mention Egon for old times sake, and because i recall at least one person praising their pizza.
08:13:32 <shachaf> oerjan: is one of them on the other side of the street from the royal palace
08:14:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i have no idea what's there, i don't live in Oslo.
08:14:50 <kmc> i hear everything in scandinavia costs at least $30
08:14:54 <shachaf> i'll have to send lexande on a pizza mission for me
08:16:05 <oerjan> "the other side of the street from the royal palace" doesn't really make sense, the palace is in the middle of a park.
08:17:11 <lexande> shachaf: yeah i suspect you will just have to go hungry the whole time you are in norway
08:17:28 <lexande> oh, i guess you have a real job, so maybe not
08:18:09 <shachaf> I'll probably be in .eu early next year for work. But maybe not .no.
08:21:01 <oerjan> shachaf: took a stroll on streetview down from the castle, hit Egon: https://maps.google.no/maps?q=slottsplassen,+Oslo&hl=no&ll=59.914042,10.738304&spn=0.000003,0.00206&sll=63.409649,10.364351&sspn=0.359599,1.054687&t=h&hq=slottsplassen,&hnear=Oslo&z=19&layer=c&cbll=59.914042,10.737794&panoid=TZqdkmjMXg09K1O52clPeA&cbp=12,26.73,,0,-7.72
08:23:18 <shachaf> oerjan: what about Peppes Pizza - Stortingsgaten
08:26:48 <oerjan> well i looked down Karl Johans gate which is the main street
08:27:03 <FireFly> Pizza in Oslo? Sounds expensive
08:27:18 <oerjan> well there's a peppes in both streets anyhow
08:29:28 <oerjan> well there you go https://maps.google.no/maps?q=Peppes+Pizza+-+Stortingsgaten,+Stortingsgata,+Oslo&hl=no&ll=59.912869,10.738964&spn=0.000086,0.065918&sll=59.912923,10.741856&sspn=0.000792,0.003082&oq=Pepp&t=h&hq=Peppes+Pizza+-+Stortingsgaten,+Stortingsgata,+Oslo&z=14&layer=c&cbll=59.912987,10.738613&panoid=0JExO66m127U5RdZx3MyPA&cbp=12,205.42,,1,17.44
08:31:08 <oerjan> the one in Karl Johans gate is much further down
08:32:29 <olsner> are there loads of peppes pizza places in oslo? if not I might've eaten at that one
08:33:11 <olsner> shachaf: not really... I guess it was ok?
08:35:19 <oerjan> anyway just give up all your money and eat at maaemoe hth
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08:35:42 <oerjan> wait that was one e too much
08:35:58 <oerjan> (i doubt they have pizza)
08:37:51 <oerjan> (do i need to mention i've never eaten there?)
08:47:51 <kmc> shachaf: you know how JavaScript supports bitwise "32-bit integer operations" on its sole numeric type of 64-bit floats?
08:48:05 <kmc> well I learned today that this is actually essential to Emscripten performance
08:48:23 <kmc> it outputs code like «var x = f()|0; var y = g()|0; return (x+y)|0;»
08:48:35 <shachaf> That's the asm.js thing too, right?
08:48:36 <kmc> which acts as a hint to the JIT that it should compile this as 32-bit integer code
08:48:48 <kmc> right, the big win of asm.js is that you can do this interprocedurally too
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10:57:06 <Taneb> In two years this channel has turned me from loving python to hating it
10:57:34 <Taneb> And now I am forced to use it
11:00:18 <Taneb> Was it two years? Or was it three? Or even more?
11:00:35 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm wondering how my younger self tolerated it
11:01:04 <mroman_> and you hate it because...?
11:01:12 <Taneb> mroman_: it's scary and aaaah
11:01:29 <mroman_> It's got numbers, classes and stuff
11:01:43 <kmc> "a type system"
11:01:44 <mroman_> except static type checking
11:01:55 <Taneb> Oh yeah, and static type checking
11:01:57 <mroman_> I fucking started to hate every language with no perfect type checking
11:01:58 <kmc> this car has everything except seatbelts or airbags, what's the problem
11:02:12 <mroman_> I spent 3 hours debugging memory corruption bug
11:02:25 <mroman_> until I noticed I passed something else to a gtk callback as userdata as I thought
11:02:29 <kmc> python is way too boring for me to have love or hate emotions about it
11:02:33 <mroman_> I passed a data struct and not a widget
11:02:41 <mroman_> and gtk kept corrupting my structs :)
11:02:49 <elliott> mroman_: you can do that bug in haskell too
11:03:00 <mroman_> Then I guess I fucking hate haskell too
11:03:11 <Taneb> Maybe you just hate GTK
11:03:17 <mroman_> elliott: Shouln't there be type safe callbacks?
11:03:25 <Taneb> I actually quite like C
11:03:30 <lexande> kmc: i ride in cars without seatbelts and airbags, don't you?
11:03:50 <kmc> not very often
11:03:56 <kmc> i don't ride in cars very often at all
11:03:59 <kmc> but this week yes
11:04:09 <lexande> i think most of the cars i ride in probably lack seatbelts and airbags
11:04:23 <elliott> > fromDyn (toDyn (123 :: Int)) :: Double
11:04:31 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Double'
11:04:36 <mroman_> Just keep in mind that every airbag has an electric-fuse
11:04:40 <elliott> > fromDyn (toDyn (123 :: Int)) :: Maybe Double
11:04:42 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe GHC.Types.Double'
11:04:45 <lexande> i guess most of the cars i hitchhiked in had seatbelts and airbags, which probably shifted the ratio back that way
11:04:47 <mroman_> and you don't know if it still works until you try it out .
11:04:54 <kmc> toyota recalled 870,000 cars because of spiders living in the airbags
11:05:16 <kmc> i have been riding in taxis this week because a 4km taxi ride in korea is like $5
11:05:17 <lexande> whether hitchhiking is safer than a third world taxi seems unclear
11:05:30 <lexande> but the seoul metro is so shiny
11:05:36 <kmc> yeah but we're not in seoul
11:05:39 <kmc> we're out in suwon
11:06:00 <Taneb> I've been getting buses mainly recently
11:06:05 <Taneb> Occasionally trains
11:06:26 <elliott> > fromDynamic (toDyn (123 :: Int)) :: Maybe Double
11:06:29 <kmc> i'll go to seoul on friday afternoon and also saturday afternoon through monday sometime
11:06:39 <Taneb> Buses are really scary when you think about it
11:07:23 <kmc> yes but how so
11:07:37 <Taneb> Because there are loads of people and no seatbelts
11:07:48 <Taneb> And busy roads and you're an easy target
11:08:00 <kmc> i think the theory is that seatbelts become less important the further you are from the front
11:08:07 <kmc> cause you won't go through the windshield
11:08:46 <kmc> i spent a lot of time on school buses and thought about this a lot and they basically told me it's fine cause you'll just hit the back of the seat in front of you
11:09:25 <Taneb> Also often you have to stand
11:09:46 <Taneb> And if the bus stops suddenly you fall over
11:10:38 <oerjan> afaiu they've made seat belts mandatory in school buses in norway now.
11:11:06 <mroman_> of course, the cool kids don't use them
11:11:34 <kmc> no the cool kids are too cool for school
11:11:57 <oerjan> i vaguely think the driver may be legally mandated to check that they do.
11:12:13 <kmc> driver carries less than $20
11:12:17 <oerjan> (that's certainly the case for children in private cars)
11:14:29 <oerjan> hm it says on this page that it's still legal to stand
11:16:34 <mroman_> If it were illegal to stand in busses
11:16:46 <mroman_> then they have to use much more busses :)
11:17:03 <mroman_> the probably need double the busses they have now at rush hours
11:17:04 <oerjan> well this doesn't apply to adults anyway.
11:17:23 <mroman_> And only for school buses?
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11:17:56 <mroman_> the problem is, that the driver can't really ensure that everyone uses the seatbelt
11:18:18 <mroman_> "I'm not driving until everyone uses his seatbelt!"
11:18:39 <oerjan> sounds like a way to become popular
11:18:48 <kmc> the drivers get assaulted by passengers often enough as it is
11:19:01 <kmc> in both NYC and SF there are signs on every bus/train reminding you that it's illegal to beat up the driver
11:19:37 <oerjan> there was this bus mini-massacre in norway recently
11:20:34 <oerjan> mini because there were only about 3 people in the bus, but they were all killed
11:21:30 <mroman_> Sounds like it's not a dream job to be busdriver in the US
11:21:42 <kmc> i don't think so, no
11:21:50 <kmc> probably not anywhere, really
11:22:13 <kmc> except that these days "dream job" means like "a job, where you get health care"
11:22:25 <kmc> and bus drivers are often unionized and make decent money and benefits and get a pension etc
11:22:32 <mroman_> Your country is messed up ;)
11:22:32 <kmc> so that puts them ahead of most employed people even
11:23:15 <kmc> the latest on that is, the website they set up for the new healthcare law is buggy and this proves that universal health care is a bad idea
11:23:16 <Taneb> I got annoyed at a bus driver recently because he insisted that the bus didn't go anywhere near Heslington East when it terminated at the Heslington East Interchange (which is at Heslington East)
11:23:49 <Taneb> (Heslington East is where my uni's CS department is)
11:23:56 <Taneb> (and WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW)
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11:25:46 <kmc> mroman_: it isn't, clearly, but the people fighting reform don't really care about facts or logic
11:26:09 <kmc> the sad fact is, there's a small number of very rich americans who honestly would rather let thousands of people die every year than pay slightly higher taxes
11:26:16 <kmc> and they have enough money to fool enough people to get their way
11:27:08 <mroman_> Maybe you should think about establishing a real democracy ;)
11:27:19 <kmc> but this website thing... wow the government spent a bunch of money on something that doesn't work well? STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES
11:27:29 <kmc> happens every day but it's usually something republicans like, such as military spending
11:27:45 <mroman_> Are republicans anti-military?
11:28:01 <kmc> i mean both parties are very much pro-military
11:28:10 <kmc> republicans tend to be slightly more in favor of actually fighting wars
11:28:16 <kmc> they both love spending money on jet planes and whatever
11:28:25 <mroman_> And the republicans are the ones with more money?
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11:29:00 <kmc> yes they're the party of rich people who don't want to pay taxes
11:29:09 <mroman_> they were founded to stop slavery
11:29:29 <kmc> rich people who don't want to pay taxes, who convince a lot of ignorant poor people to go along by leveraging various forms of bigotry
11:34:47 <mroman_> I don't really know anything about the US tax system
11:34:55 <mroman_> other than it's apparentely really messy and complicated
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11:38:48 <fizzie> "For adult buses" sounds a bit dirty.
11:40:17 <fizzie> Also I just built a thing with ICC instead of GCC (also with Intel's BLAS instead of generic ATLAS, which is probably more relevant), and its runtime (for a test case) dropped from three and a half minutes to one minute, which was quite the speedup.
11:44:05 <mroman_> fizzie: They usually are a bit dirty.
11:45:15 <mroman_> It could even be a serial bus!
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12:24:12 <kmc> fizzie: nice
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12:50:50 <lexande> kmc: the metro totally goes to suwon but i guess there are only a couple stations there
12:52:38 <lexande> one note about the safety of city busses with lots of people standing is that such busses tend to be slow as balls
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12:53:33 <lexande> people may fall over in a sudden stop but nothing too traumatic
12:55:43 <kmc> lexande: yeah i think we will take the metro to seoul and back
12:55:54 <kmc> though we took a cab here from ICN
12:55:56 <lexande> there are exceptions; riding the M60 across the triboro bridge is a little disconcerting in this respect. but generally in the developed world busses that spend a significant amount of time at high speeds (primarily commuter express and intercity coaches) aren't allowed standees.
12:55:57 <kmc> but i wasn't paying
12:56:47 <lexande> a cab from ICN to anywhere sounds cringeworthy; i guess it's the land of cheap cabs but does that really mean they refrain from milking airport passengers?
12:57:52 <lexande> also what, i tried to do google maps directions in korea and transit is the only option
12:58:18 <kmc> it was about $80
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13:02:02 <kmc> lexande: yeah what's with that? re gmaps
13:03:27 <lexande> i don't know. it took them a long time to get road data in south korea at all. i think they may have actually had it in north korea first (because mapmaker was allowed in north korea)
13:03:37 <kmc> $80 doesn't seem so bad to go 60km
13:04:36 <kmc> actually more than 60km because I'm pretty sure we took the north bridge
13:04:39 <kmc> we went past GMP on the way
13:06:18 <lexande> i've had a 50km taxi ride for like $18 in china, and an 80km ride for like $3 in Botswana (though i may have actually been hitchhiking then, what is a taxi really)
13:06:40 <kmc> albania: where every car is a taxi and also a 90s mercedes
13:06:58 <kmc> i took a cab from JFK to Exchange Place once, by myself
13:07:04 <kmc> THAT was a ridiculous thing to do
13:07:36 <kmc> but again, not my money, plus I had very little idea how to get around the area at the time
13:07:41 <kmc> that was like $120
13:07:56 <lexande> oh yeah we paid €26 or whatever for that 50km taxi ride from Shkoder to Bar
13:08:18 <kmc> in a mixture of EUR and ALL yes
13:12:55 <lexande> i think we paid like $150 for a 250km taxi ride from El Calafate to Rio Turbio
13:17:49 <lexande> i paid something under $35 for a 450km taxi ride from Nuweiba to Cairo
13:23:13 <lexande> though he dropped me out in Heliopolis or some shit and i had to pay almost $10 more for a taxi into the city centre
13:25:35 <int-e> is there a rush-hour based esolang, I wonder ...
13:27:49 <lexande> also https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/390188941749395456
13:35:51 <fizzie> I think we once took a taxi from Mikkeli to Helsinki back when I was a small child, and the family car broke down, and it was late, and there was some reason or another that we absolutely had to get back the same day.
13:36:14 <fizzie> (That's about 230 km.)
13:37:41 <kmc> today's finding: most programs do not work well if you set all of the registers to 0 after every instruction
13:37:46 <kmc> but i have one that does!
13:40:11 * kmc writes sizeof(uint64_t) and feels silly
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15:08:29 <kmc> i wonder if x86 is turing complete with only instructions «mov dword [dest], imm» and «jmp [src]» but allowing self-modifying of those operands
15:08:55 <Jafet> Can you flush icaches with those
15:09:15 <kmc> you don't need to flush the icache to do self-modifying code on x86
15:09:27 <boily> iianm, that would mean some form of memory mapping, no?
15:09:56 <kmc> i dunno why people complain so much about x86, the assembly language is so nice and high level
15:09:59 * kmc only mostly trolling
15:10:11 <kmc> boily: what do you mean
15:10:14 <Jafet> I wonder how much x86 legacy involves local self-modifying code
15:11:02 <boily> kmc: now that I think about what I thought, I don't think I was thinking what I meant to.
15:12:29 <Jafet> Can you think something other than the thing you thought to think?
15:13:37 <mrhmouse> you guys, it is way too early here for this
15:13:48 <int-e> kmc: oh there's a bit of self-modifying code here and there; e.g. the first bresenham implementation I encountered had a point where an inc was patched to a dec if the lines sloped upwards, things like that.
15:16:11 <kmc> `run ls bin | paste
15:16:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6704
15:16:25 <Jafet> Well, x86 is the (?) architecture that decodes every single byte offset in parallel because it can't know in advance where instructions start
15:17:13 <kmc> that would be an implementation detail
15:17:39 <kmc> but also, I haven't heard about that
15:17:49 <kmc> and would like to know more
15:18:08 <kmc> `paste bin/welcome
15:18:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/welcome
15:18:16 <boily> @localtime mrhmouse
15:18:34 <kmc> `paste wisdom/welcome
15:18:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/wisdom/welcome
15:18:40 <kmc> `run ls wisdom | paste
15:18:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22595
15:19:11 <kmc> `run echo wisdom/* | paste
15:19:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13718
15:19:33 <boily> int-e: what have you done to that poor lambdabot?
15:19:43 <kmc> `? wercome
15:19:45 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
15:21:04 <int-e> boily: not lambdabot's fault that mrhmouse doesn't answer CTCP time requests
15:21:19 <mrhmouse> I answered, just not in any valid format
15:21:31 <int-e> you know that's what I meant ;)
15:21:53 <mrhmouse> what format does lambdabot expect?
15:22:20 <mrhmouse> also, is it okay if I bring my own bot into the channel / is there a rule list I can read someplace?
15:22:41 <boily> oh! another bot! ☺
15:22:56 <mrhmouse> boily: Don't get excited, it's not an interesting one :)
15:23:27 <boily> not a problem. as long as it answers to ping, echo, botsnacks and does something unique, everything's fine.
15:24:02 <mrhmouse> I only have two: a chatterbot along the lines of fungot and one that does nothing by default but can load functionality from code on the web
15:24:02 <fungot> mrhmouse: that is the only moving thing was the eye of the black bird.
15:24:06 <Jafet> It seems that I misread; agner fog only suspects that intel chips try decoding in parallel.
15:24:49 <mrhmouse> boily: I'm assuming ping is an actual ping, but what should it answer when prompted with echo or botsnacks?
15:25:14 <mrhmouse> Okay, so some of our bots don't respond to ping already.
15:25:55 <int-e> so ... CTCP, it expects a NOTICE (not PRIVMSG), starting with \001 (ASCII 1), followed by "TIME <whatever>", followed by another \001
15:25:58 <boily> and uhm... I... didn't implement the Botsnack Munching Behaviour Module for Bots on Metasepia yet.
15:26:14 <kmc> maximal munch
15:26:16 <int-e> I don't think that it really cares about the format of the <whatever> part.
15:26:21 <Jafet> That's not a ping, is it? That's a privmsg containing the text "ping".
15:26:33 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:27:02 <fungot> quintopia: i've seen cases where chatzilla seems to send messages without getting autoreplies. doctors seem to always be of the egyptian god isis or what was it
15:27:19 <mrhmouse> I think fungot only answers to its name
15:27:19 <fungot> mrhmouse: where is a lot of freedom with that big list of them in .bashrc will prevent it from being " a property which a closed topological space exhibits".
15:27:46 <boily> mrhmouse: that, and some obscure non-proto-indo-european spells.
15:28:20 <Jafet> I should make my shell rc topologically closed.
15:28:31 <quintopia> i'm not used to having to address botsnacks to a particular bot
15:29:28 <kmc> `run printf 'Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)' > wisdom/wlcom
15:31:52 <kmc> it's either that or set up a CNAME for irc.dal.net
15:32:32 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:35:54 -!- conehead has joined.
15:36:25 * kmc hugs lexande
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15:37:18 <kmc> fungot: got any cool .bashrc tricks?
15:37:18 <fungot> kmc: btw, i'd like to start with that +2 function you mentioned earlier? think it's worth having, but once i picked up the memory to be turing complete
15:37:46 <kmc> fungot: are you a self-aware makefile
15:37:46 <fungot> kmc: they could be scattered throughout the signals, conditions, arithmetic, enums, records, etc. but i can't argue with the library access actually, you end up thinking in c.
15:37:48 -!- conehead has joined.
15:38:07 <kmc> fungot: that shit rots your brain
15:38:08 <fungot> kmc: i can't remember the details now, heh.
15:38:15 <kmc> fungot: i rest my case.
15:38:15 <fungot> kmc: one would imagine so, yes. but defining a variable ' define'
15:38:44 <int-e> fungot: "I would be surprised if anyone went to all of the effort that this researcher suggests."
15:38:45 <fungot> int-e: in a way similar to how monads can be done
15:38:47 <HackEgo> conehead: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:39:02 <conehead> I miss my rainbow mixed-case welcome ):
15:39:13 <kmc> `run WeLcOme | rainwords
15:39:15 <HackEgo> bash: WeLcOme: command not found
15:39:19 <kmc> `run ? WeLcOme | rainwords
15:39:22 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:39:41 <Jafet> `run WeLcOmE conehead | rainwords
15:39:44 <HackEgo> CoNeHeAd: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:40:10 <kmc> `run perl -e "print '~' x 50" | rainbow
15:40:12 <HackEgo> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
15:40:18 <ion> The Onion? The body of a spy is found in a padlocked sports bag in his apartment. The investigating police: he probably died by accident on his own. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24927078
15:40:43 <kmc> that's some kinky shit
15:41:07 <int-e> that case is old and sort of famous; the coroner? tried to zip himself up in a bag and decided it couldn't be done.
15:41:28 <int-e> but indeed it's a clear-cut case of suicide. nobody expected anything else.
15:42:02 <mrhmouse> kmc: what stops people from sending harmful commands to HackEgo?
15:42:12 <kmc> mrhmouse: define 'harmful'
15:42:39 <int-e> I just wonder what theory they came up with ... maybe a self-destructing lego mindstorm robot that locked the bag.
15:42:41 <kmc> mrhmouse: every command runs in a separate User Mode Linux system and the filesystem changes are merged with Mercurial (so can be reverted)
15:42:53 * boily throw a mint-condition, shrink-wrapped UML manual with garish covers and bad business analogies over at quintopia
15:43:16 <kmc> a business is like a burrito
15:43:31 <int-e> r[ead]m[ail] -r[eally]f[ast] /[search pattern matching anything]
15:43:41 <int-e> is that harmful enough?
15:44:01 <kmc> `run perl -e "print '~' x 100" | rainbow
15:44:03 <HackEgo> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
15:44:04 <ion> int-e: Remember --no-preserve-root on GNU systems.
15:44:34 <boily> `run python -c "print('eh?')"
15:44:49 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:18 <ion> /. would probably work.
15:45:22 <ion> on any system
15:45:36 <boily> hm. it eventually dies...
15:45:38 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:40 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:42 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:44 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:46 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:46:27 <kmc> if False: yield
15:46:50 <kmc> that's fine
15:47:00 <kmc> just get a new kernel from wherever
15:47:04 <kmc> they're all pretty much the same
15:47:07 <mrhmouse> HackBot doesn't permission to delete that, I assume?
15:47:21 <kmc> anyway the 'kernel' from UML comes from The Outside
15:47:25 <mrhmouse> *have permission, my apologies
15:47:34 <int-e> `run bash -c ': ( ) { : | : ; } ; :'
15:48:05 <HackEgo> bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resourc
15:48:07 <int-e> but it should still die with the virtual machine :)
15:48:40 <mrhmouse> Does the VM reboot itself automatically?
15:48:50 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
15:48:55 <kmc> mrhmouse: every command runs in a fresh VM instance
15:49:18 <boily> `run cat /proc/cpuinfo
15:49:20 <HackEgo> processor: 0 \ vendor_id: User Mode Linux \ model name: UML \ mode: skas \ host: Linux codu.org 2.6.32-5-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Tue Mar 8 00:01:30 UTC 2011 x86_64 \ bogomips: 632.01
15:49:20 <kmc> HackEgo is trapped in an endless cycle of reincarnation
15:49:54 <mrhmouse> Very nice indeed! I'll have to sandbox up my command bot like that before adding it to any public channel. Right now it just answers to me, anyways.
15:49:55 <Jafet> I want to checkout a past life
15:50:12 <kmc> `run echo 'const int main[] = { 14776, 3942977280, 247 };' > fb.c && gcc -o fb fb.c && ./fb
15:50:35 <kmc> mrhmouse: does it check that you're identified with services :3
15:50:50 <kmc> good to know
15:51:06 <Jafet> He's not identified with services
15:51:17 <mrhmouse> It's not on freenode, anyways :) Maybe I'll just add my chatterbot for now.
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15:54:11 <mrhmouse> Ah, here's the chatterbot now.
15:55:40 <boily> ruddy: what do you do?
15:55:40 <ruddy> I think it goes for most people that they're not inherently 'bad'
15:56:04 <boily> ruddy: can you say "fungot"?
15:56:04 <fungot> boily: oh well, really night now. i run drscheme on my 256mb box, but it
15:56:04 <ruddy> 1 gram of TNT equivalent is equal (defined, even, I think) to 1 kcal
15:56:30 <mrhmouse> ruddy is a bit different from fungot, and there isn't much chance you can get it to invoke fungot
15:56:31 <fungot> mrhmouse: sponsored by british taxpayers, of course)
15:56:31 <ruddy> SuperTipsyCam approves
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15:56:59 <kmc> ruddy: sing me a song
15:57:03 <kmc> ruddy: are you real
15:57:03 <ruddy> You could look for failing video rental places.
15:57:08 <int-e> I forgot how hard to kill that : | : thing is ... now one reboot later :)
15:57:15 <kmc> ruddy: Blockbuster shut their last stores just recently
15:57:16 <ruddy> They cater to other tastes.
15:57:24 <kmc> ruddy: indeed (bankruptcy mostly)
15:57:24 <mrhmouse> ruddy: row, row, row your boat
15:57:40 <kmc> ruddy: a motherfucking boat?
15:57:40 <ruddy> that would be unfortunate to not have the ability to tell a story like I just did :(
15:57:50 <boily> ~echo `echo ruddy fungot
15:57:50 <fungot> boily: how about this?
15:57:50 <ruddy> sponsored by british taxpayers, of course)
15:58:29 <mrhmouse> the only chance you have is to get fungot to invoke ruddy, really
15:58:29 <fungot> mrhmouse: yeah, but i figured i can just do this all with a single
15:58:53 <mrhmouse> Also ruddy doesn't recognize its name when combined with punctuation :P
16:01:06 * kmc falls asleep
16:01:10 <mrhmouse> Even if you get fungot to invoke it, you'll have to get lucky with a response that includes a name.
16:01:10 <fungot> mrhmouse: but produces a function on-the-fly at startup. sorry, this is tedious. http://62.167.150.30/ acm100.c of
16:01:30 <mrhmouse> It stores placeholders instead of names when it logs things, and fills them out when responding
16:20:19 <mroman_> Infinte sized rubik's cube
16:20:32 <boily> how many dimensions?
16:20:49 <mroman_> like a regular rubik's cube
16:21:38 <mroman_> on a regular rubik's cube every side has 9 squares
16:22:01 <mroman_> now there are's an infinite amount of squares on each side
16:24:14 <mrhmouse> mroman_: I don't see where this is going
16:25:33 * boily prods mrhmouse with a calibrated 10' pole mad out of the finest maple and with a tapered end wrapped in a hand-knit woolen dampener
16:27:26 <boily> sorry. bad autocompletion.
16:27:33 * boily swings the pole over at mroman_
16:27:45 <mrhmouse> That's odd. ruddy doesn't seem to log /me commands...
16:27:45 <ruddy> probably just Bucket spouting some nonsense it was taught
16:28:03 <mrhmouse> No ruddy, you can't blame other bots
16:30:21 <mroman_> mrhmouse: An esolang based on said rubik cube
16:31:10 <mrhmouse> mroman_: what operations are there? you can't rotate it -- that's effectively shifting an infinite list to its end
16:31:15 <mroman_> instructions are commands on how to rotate stuff
16:32:33 <mroman_> e.g if you rotate the yellow side
16:32:48 <mroman_> then a row of orange squares are now there, where a row of green squares was
16:33:56 <mrhmouse> mroman_: So you're just defining transformations, then. Interesting...
16:34:45 <mroman_> and the data would be the squares
16:34:50 <mrhmouse> I'm assuming each square is then basically a cell (a la Brainfuck, but 2D), and you can now shuffle cells
16:35:08 <ion> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cartesianco/the-ex1-rapid-3d-printing-of-circuit-boards
16:35:09 <mrhmouse> So you would have to provide an offset for each rotation, from the center.
16:35:32 <mroman_> I'm thinking of viewing the cube from one side
16:35:47 <mroman_> and then it's just a 2D field
16:35:58 <mroman_> but you can rotate the whole cube itself too
16:36:13 <mroman_> to not confuse it with the "actual rotation" of stuff
16:36:38 <mrhmouse> And each view can be modified by rotating at different offsets in one of the four directions.
16:36:46 <mroman_> and you can switch between those
16:36:51 <mroman_> and then you can do stuff like uhm
16:37:08 <mroman_> if (0,0) == RedSquare then RotateLikeThis otherwise RotateLikeThat
16:37:45 <mroman_> where 0,0 is either the center or the upper left corner
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16:37:54 <mroman_> I'm not sure what be more convenient
16:37:57 <mrhmouse> You know what would be interesting?
16:38:25 <mrhmouse> If you ran the program and then printed a "window" of one of the views (obviously you can't print the whole view)
16:38:47 <mrhmouse> and then you ran that image through Piet
16:39:01 <mrhmouse> Though you may perhaps need more than six sides, then
16:39:35 <mroman_> The whole interesting part would be that the data is represented by squares :)
16:40:23 <boily> a para-meta-multi-dimensional rubikified langton ant on a piet framework of infinite proportions!
16:40:39 <mroman_> you don't need more than that
16:40:44 <mroman_> you'd only need two anyway
16:41:27 <mrhmouse> mroman_: I'm assuming you mean you would interpret data across runs of cells, as opposed to just one cell at a time
16:42:20 <mroman_> It's a machine with a Rubik Cube as a Storage Device
16:43:07 <mroman_> and on a regular rubik's cube there are
16:43:17 <mrhmouse> That's what I mean. You would be looking at the big picture as opposed to each cell individual. Initially I thought you intended for each cell to store some other value
16:43:29 <mroman_> 4.3 * 10^19 possible variations
16:43:33 <mrhmouse> since I compared them to Brainfuck cells, and you agreed
16:43:57 <mroman_> A "cell" can contain one of 6 values
16:46:07 <mroman_> of course there are restrictions on how you can move data around
16:46:14 <mroman_> since if you move data, other data moves as well
16:46:43 <mrhmouse> I thought a standard Rubik's Cube would have 6 sides * ( 6 values per cell ^ 9 cells per side ) => 60_466_176 possible states
16:48:02 <mroman_> Wikipedia says there are 32 quintillion possible arrangements
16:48:33 <mrhmouse> is that including rotations of the entire cube?
16:49:01 <fizzie> mrhmouse: If you wanted to allow all possible "settings", that would be 6^(6*9), not 6 * (6^9).
16:49:11 <fizzie> (Of course not all of those are legal arrangements.)
16:49:23 <mroman_> which is about 65 bits of Storage?
16:49:56 <oerjan> in particular, if you ignore rotations of the entire cube, the middle squares never move.
16:50:21 <mrhmouse> clearly it's still too early here for me to do any sort of thinking
16:50:25 <fizzie> Quite many of the 6^(6*9) states also don't have equal amounts of all colors.
16:50:49 <mrhmouse> fizzie: Good point, I didn't account for a limited set of colors
16:53:28 <quintopia> this is an infinite cube. any computation should be possible. remains to be proved, of course.
16:55:40 <oerjan> @tell elliott Darn spammer got past captcha again :(
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17:16:02 <mrhmouse> mroman_: Have you thought of syntax for that esolang?
17:28:05 <mrhmouse> when you have a sketch, could you link me to it?
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17:32:56 <mroman_> mrhmouse: http://codepad.org/mTwYvVAv
17:32:59 <mroman_> Probably something like that
17:33:18 <mroman_> esentially you have a "cell pointer" with x,y coordinate
17:33:31 <mroman_> which is part of the machine (so not stored on the rubik cube)
17:33:52 <mroman_> you can increment it, decrement it
17:33:58 <mroman_> or set it to a specific value
17:34:05 <mroman_> you can get the value of a square by {x,y}
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17:56:53 <mrhmouse> so you're rotating single rows/columns?
17:57:18 <mrhmouse> or does a vertical rotation at offset 2 imply that all rows >= 2 are also rotated?
18:03:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:04:51 <mrhmouse> Also, you mention in your sketch that {x, y} is relative to the corners. I'm guessing that's a typo?
18:06:32 <fizzie> ion: Thanks again for that tip about infants. I just fed one to a carnivorous plant to quiet it down.
18:07:00 <boily> back from lunch, and no, I didn't eat any infants.
18:07:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:08:41 <mrhmouse> fizzie: stop making me want this game
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18:13:54 <mroman_> mrhmouse: single rows/columns, yes
18:14:10 <mroman_> but if you rotate column 0 upwards
18:14:20 <mroman_> it's the same thing as rotating every other row downwards
18:14:45 <mroman_> mrhmouse: Why is that a typo?
18:14:49 <mrhmouse> mroman_: No it isn't, you would have to also rotate the view for it to be the same
18:15:07 <mrhmouse> because it's an infinite cube, it doesn't have corners
18:15:44 <mroman_> doesn't that depend on how you view it?
18:15:49 <mroman_> there's an upper left corner
18:16:01 <mroman_> but it "extends" to infinity from there
18:16:16 <mrhmouse> so you only have positive offsets
18:16:17 <mroman_> i.e the buttom right corner is at (infinity,infinity)
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18:17:47 <mroman_> which means there's no "center square"
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18:17:56 <mroman_> you don't know it's position :)
18:19:26 <mroman_> you have actually an unbounded tape
18:19:34 <mroman_> i.e if you face the white side
18:19:48 <mroman_> you rotate the first row right it turns red
18:20:05 <mroman_> it boils down to brainfuck with 1 bit cells
18:21:05 <mroman_> so actually pretty boring :(
18:21:19 <mroman_> I hate how everything is just syntactic sugar for brainfuck
18:21:36 <myname> is brainfuck with 1 bit cells AND limited amount of cells still turing complete?
18:21:57 <myname> i hate how everything is just syntactic sugar for assembly
18:22:13 <mroman_> because limited amount of cells implies that it has not infinite storage
18:22:43 <mroman_> but an infinite sized rubik's cube has infinite storage
18:23:19 <myname> brainfuck with one cell with an infinitely large value should be complete
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18:28:25 <oklopol> finite state machine + single counter
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18:36:42 <oklopol> however, presumably two unlimited cells are turing complete
18:37:20 <mrhmouse> well, you need operations that make use of those cells
18:37:56 <oklopol> yeah but brainfuck with two cells
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18:47:32 <ion> fizzie: :-) They also work for a number of other things than food, for instance projectiles.
18:47:52 <Taneb> I saw Thor 2 today
18:48:54 <mrhmouse> ion: can you use them as building material?
18:49:17 <ion> mrhmouse: I don’t remember if anyone has asked for building materials in the game.
18:50:11 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
18:50:35 <mrhmouse> Taneb: a friend of mine had a tongue ring put in without anesthetics. now she's thor 2
18:51:14 <mrhmouse> I told a terrible lie for the sake of a terrible pun
18:51:37 <Taneb> It was the best kind of terrible pun
18:51:44 <fizzie> ion: There was one "help these guys fix this treehouse" kind of thing, for which a "plank" worked.
18:51:52 <fizzie> ion: I have a feeling an infant would not have.
18:52:01 <ion> Yeah, it probably wouldn’t.
18:52:17 <fizzie> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/09/23 related
18:52:44 <fizzie> (You *can* create one, but it doesn't do anything.)
18:54:38 <boily> I don't understand the pun :(
18:55:08 <mrhmouse> boily: The word "sore", when pronounced with a sore tongue or lisp, sounds like "Thor"
18:56:10 <ruddy> Also, this is spinal tap
18:57:11 * boily applies the aforementioned egregious mapole on mrhmouse
18:59:35 <mrhmouse> is mapole an amalgam of maple and pole?
19:01:13 <boily> ~eval 10 * 12 * 25.4 / 1000
19:02:30 <boily> I could've frinked it, but it was a conversion from 10 foot → 3.048 metres.
19:03:50 <fizzie> More Scribblenauts: I just fixed global warming.
19:04:04 <mrhmouse> fizzie: did it involve infants?
19:04:09 <Taneb> MORE Scribblenauts?
19:04:15 <Taneb> So there's more than just Maxwell!?
19:04:16 <fizzie> No. Though in retrospect, I should've tried to make it so.
19:04:34 <mrhmouse> fizzie: please tell me you at least fixed global hunger with infants
19:04:40 <fizzie> Taneb: He's got all those brothers, and that evil twin.
19:04:49 <fizzie> mrhmouse: Nobody's asked me to fix global hunger yet.
19:05:01 <mrhmouse> well when they do, at least you now have a plan
19:05:06 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:05:30 <HackEgo> 381/1250 (exactly 0.3048) m^2 (area)
19:05:31 <Taneb> Global hunger seems a problem that a scribblenaut could solve pretty well
19:05:56 <HackEgo> Syntax error: <String>, line 1, near column 1 \ --help \ ^ \ 1 error(s) occurred during parsing.
19:09:21 <fizzie> I used to move around by adding wings to Maxwell, but now I just apply "flying fast" as adjectives.
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19:16:31 <mrhmouse> fizzie: how does Scribblenauts handle unknown words?
19:17:02 <fizzie> mrhmouse: "What do you mean, unknown words?"
19:17:33 <mrhmouse> for example, if you use the nonsense word "foobarbaz"
19:17:54 <fizzie> It pops up a dictionary list if you give it a word it doesn't recognize.
19:18:28 <fizzie> For "foobarbaz", it suggests footbag, ferbam, fleabag, flower box, flowerbed, foie gras, and four more pages of stuff.
19:19:02 <Bike> @tell shachaf no it's true you burnedm e good
19:19:06 <fizzie> (I just told it to create "nothing", and it made a black hole instead. Hm.)
19:19:55 <Taneb> A black hole is kind of like contagious nothingness, except for the fact that it really isn't
19:20:35 <boily> Bike: Lem, as in the Stanislav of the same name?
19:21:05 <boily> fizzie: can you gorge an infant like a goose, and then make foie gras out of it?
19:21:44 <boily> prooftechnique: a hacky sack.
19:22:14 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/pfhkQsa.gif
19:22:19 <prooftechnique> Curious what sort of object fleabag is in the game, too
19:22:26 <mrhmouse> arguably, a black hole is more like a contagious everything..
19:23:17 <fizzie> boily: Probably not quite.
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19:24:07 <fizzie> A mermaid asked for some "gizmo" from above the surface, and I made a television, which promptly electrocuted us both.
19:24:27 <fizzie> Er. A "fleabag" is some kind of a building.
19:24:45 <Bike> well, did you win before you died
19:24:57 <fizzie> "A seedy, rundown hotel or other lodging place" -- I guess it's from that.
19:25:13 <fizzie> Now there's a seedy hotel at the bottom of the sea.
19:25:22 <mrhmouse> fizzie: please give her a black hole at the bottom of the sea
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19:27:18 <boily> I miss the good old days of CRTs. those were the last electrified appliances that I could apply righteous and cathartic percussive maintenance onto.
19:27:21 <fizzie> Oh, I seem to in fact have won before I died.
19:29:40 <zzo38> I wrote a program to convert binary decision trees to Internet Quiz Engine.
19:30:10 <boily> oh, new quizzes for the zzopher site!
19:31:22 <zzo38> I didn't add any new quizzes yet; just a program to convert binary decision trees.
19:38:22 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bj
19:38:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 51.3
19:38:57 <ais523> it beats every program
19:39:03 <ais523> and /still/ isn't #1 on the leaderboard
19:41:19 <ais523> it's only 0.7 points off #1, admittedly
19:41:22 <ais523> which is hardly anything
19:41:28 <ais523> perhaps I just need a program that beats space_hotel
19:41:42 <ais523> or, because this pushed space_hotel up to #1, I can rely on people targeting it now
19:42:13 <boily> !bfjoust flangoustine >>>>>>>>[[-.]>]
19:42:16 <EgoBot> Score for boily_flangoustine: 6.4
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19:44:48 <ais523> does that beat space hotel?
19:45:03 <ais523> I doubt it beats anything very much, given that it tends to run off the end of the program
19:45:17 <ais523> do you mean a ()*21 around the outer []?
19:45:50 <int-e> an even so, isn't it likely to just terminate after 9 steps?
19:46:49 <int-e> !bfjoust stupidity >>>>>>>>>([-.]>)*21
19:46:52 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_stupidity: 15.8
19:48:30 <boily> nooodl: it's kinda hard to explain. it implies one of my friends, wildly gesticulating around in a much uncoördinated manner, and lazily not doing something while doing it.
19:48:55 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/jPId This is the program to do so.
19:49:36 <Bike> man this is like an eight hundred line brainfuck program...
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19:51:08 <int-e> !bfjoust stupidity .
19:51:10 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_stupidity: 6.4
19:51:17 <ais523> Bike: I want to get it to #1 so I can write about it
19:51:24 <ais523> int-e: you use < to delete a program, normally
19:51:30 <ais523> that guarantees a score of 0
19:51:36 <int-e> !bfjoust stupidity <
19:51:39 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_stupidity: 0.0
19:51:39 <boily> !bfjoust flangoustine <
19:51:41 <int-e> ah so that's what this does :)
19:51:42 <EgoBot> Score for boily_flangoustine: 0.0
19:52:24 <ais523> that's by far the most common reason for the "off own end" loss
19:52:52 <ais523> which is in the rules mostly because there's no other sensible way to handle that situation, not because it's at all possible to generally trick opponents into doing it
19:53:30 <Bike> i don't have anything to help.
19:56:17 <ais523> I wonder if this is an intended consequence of the scoring system or not
19:56:39 <int-e> !bfjoust wiggle ([]++[]--)*100000
19:56:42 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_wiggle: 6.4
19:57:40 <ais523> the [] is purely harming that program
19:57:56 <ais523> never zerotest your own flag unless you think the opponent is offset or turtle clearing it (and even in those cases, it's really dangerous)
19:58:11 <ais523> because if you test it and find it's zero, then if the opponent doesn't repair it on the same turn, you've lost
19:58:21 <ais523> zero-testing the /opponent's/ flag is fine, and commonly done, for the same reasons
19:58:33 <Bike> !bfjoust apathy (>[-])*100000
19:58:35 <EgoBot> Score for Bike_apathy: 12.7
19:59:13 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >([-])*100000
19:59:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 6.4
19:59:23 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >(-)*100000
19:59:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 7.2
19:59:42 <ais523> the scoring favours programs that can win, over programs that don't lose
19:59:59 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >(+-)*100000
20:00:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 7.7
20:00:13 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >+(+-)*100000
20:00:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 5.6
20:00:23 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >(+-)*100000
20:00:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 7.7
20:00:44 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:01:03 <ais523> haha, that actually beats preparation
20:01:12 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock
20:01:12 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
20:01:13 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock <
20:01:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 0.0
20:01:32 <int-e> !bfjoust wiggle >>>>>>>>((-)*100[-]>)*21
20:01:36 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_wiggle: 8.9
20:01:43 <int-e> better than apathy :)
20:02:19 <int-e> !bfjoust wiggle >>>>>>>>((-)*100(-.)*50>)*21
20:02:22 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_wiggle: 1.7
20:02:55 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:03:24 <ais523> !bfjoust syntaxerror [
20:03:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_syntaxerror: 0.0
20:03:36 <ais523> I guess that's another way to delete a program
20:08:04 <int-e> !bfjoust stupidity +++>(+)*33>>(-)*29>>>>>>((-)*128.>)*21
20:08:06 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_stupidity: 10.9
20:09:24 <ais523> int-e: you might want to offset that turtle slightly
20:09:31 <ais523> and maybe put a zero test around it
20:10:46 <zzo38> boily: Now there is a new quiz file; "Pokemon in 9 questions" has been converted using the binary decision tree program.
20:11:04 <int-e> ais523: probably, if I wanted to do something not-so-stupid :)
20:11:41 <ais523> I like it when people do stupid things, though, it often gives a challenge to beat them
20:12:13 <ais523> quintopia_wireless_frownie is basically a normal rush program with a bunch of arbitrary misbehaviour built in
20:12:14 <quintopia> zzo38: it can decide which pokemon it is in just 9 questions?
20:12:32 <ais523> to make it not get beaten by programs that beat normal rush programs
20:13:01 <ais523> quintopia: well there are more than 512 Pokémon, so…
20:13:29 <boily> zzo38 has an urban dictionary entry??? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zzo38
20:14:15 <zzo38> quintopia: Only first generation. I didn't make up the questions; I only converted them.
20:14:37 <zzo38> (I also got rid of the non-ASCII characters)
20:14:44 <ais523> generation 1 should be doable in 8
20:14:58 <ais523> 151 is between 128 and 256
20:15:13 <ais523> actually, even if you include all the glitch mons, including all the formes of Missingno., you could still theoretically do it in 8
20:15:14 <FireFly> Enjoy finding good questions though
20:15:27 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know that.
20:15:38 <FireFly> "is its national dex number above x?" isn't good enough :P
20:15:59 <ais523> FireFly: it isn't, the glitch mons don't have sensible dex numbers
20:16:13 <FireFly> Even then, it'd be a boring quiz
20:16:58 <zzo38> Like I said I didn't make up the questions.
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20:20:24 <quintopia> ais523: i'm not that into pokemon.
20:20:51 <ais523> that's why I was answering the question
20:20:58 <ais523> because I thought there was a reasonable chance you didn't know the answer
20:22:03 <lexande> ais523: i'm pretty sure gen1 actually did have an 8-bit value to identify pokemon?
20:22:20 <ais523> lexande: it did, but it wasn't dex number
20:22:29 <ais523> and doesn't seem to correspond to any particular order, in fact
20:22:36 <ais523> and it's not user-visible
20:22:53 <lexande> how many missingnos are there?
20:23:14 <ais523> lots, like half the glitch mons are missingnos.
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20:23:24 <ais523> the other half are just random
20:23:35 <ais523> apart from 'M, which looks like missingno. and has similar but not identical stats
20:23:59 <ais523> 'M is commonly seen because its index number is the string terminator
20:24:53 <quintopia> are glitchmons considered pokemons?
20:25:11 <ais523> apparently there are 49 missingno formes
20:25:32 <ais523> and a specific instane of a glitchmon is typically considered to be a Pokémon, but their species is not considered to be a Pokémon species
20:25:56 <quintopia> so the quiz is unlikely to be about them
20:26:27 <quintopia> this is what i get for being too old for pokemon
20:27:11 <quintopia> (it got popular in america after i was in middle school becuase of the card game, and i never had a game boy)
20:27:38 <ais523> hmm, I'm probably not too /old/ for Pokémon
20:27:39 <zzo38> quintopia: In a magazine once some 93 year old people who played Pokemon card wrote a letter to them. So, even old people do.
20:27:41 <ais523> I was playing it earlier this year
20:27:51 <ais523> but there's lots I dislike about the latest games, X/Y
20:28:10 <ais523> the competitive battling seems better than Black/White, but I fear I wouldn't enjoy the ingame enough to make it worthwhile
20:28:23 <mrhmouse> I never had the attention span for Pokemon, but I did have several of the shiny holographic cards
20:28:24 <zzo38> quintopia: The message was in English.
20:28:56 <zzo38> I don't know who they are though, and I have lost the message.
20:29:30 <zzo38> I still like to play Pokemon card too, especially the Pokemon card puzzle game.
20:30:11 <FireFly> ais523: anything in particular? I rather like it
20:30:33 <ais523> FireFly: a huge reliance on online play/trading with strangers is the thing that puts me off most
20:30:35 <zzo38> FireFly: O, have you tried to figure out the puzzle.5 game yet? I think it is past 14:00 UTC+1
20:30:42 <quintopia> ais523: you wouldn't happen to know anything about k-servers would you?
20:30:43 <ais523> also, the plot is stupid and just doesn't work
20:30:49 <ais523> and the game is very easy compared to all the previous ones
20:30:52 <FireFly> zzo38: yeah, i spammed you a bit in query, maybe you didn't notice?
20:31:04 <zzo38> FireFly: I was sleeping.
20:31:04 <ais523> finally, some specific changes are ridiculous
20:31:48 <ais523> the most absurd one, IIRC, is what they did with Flash
20:32:01 <ais523> Flash's effect is to light up an area around you
20:32:18 <ais523> there is an ability, Illuminate, that's flavoured as lighting up an area
20:32:24 <ais523> Illuminate increases encounter rate
20:32:25 <FireFly> zzo38: http://hastebin.com/raw/voqaxufuna
20:32:34 <ais523> in generation 6, IIRC Flash /reduces/ encounter rate
20:32:39 <ais523> although I haven't played the game so don't know for sure
20:32:45 <ais523> this inconsistency really bothers me
20:33:00 <FireFly> something something flash being sudden and blinding
20:33:19 <ais523> FireFly: well that's what it does in battle
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20:33:48 <zzo38> I don't like the new Pokemon card rules; they aren't very good. I also don't like the variant with 4 side-cards, or the ordinary "sudden death" rule. They get rid of a lot of the tactics and strategy, involving defense, sacrifice, and other things.
20:33:48 <ais523> also generation 6 seems to mostly have locations that are boring in terms of gameplay
20:33:52 <ais523> although the graphics are neat
20:34:13 <zzo38> And positional play; one of the most important features of Pokemon card.
20:34:37 <FireFly> It's hard to go back to grid-restricted games after playing Y though..
20:35:36 <FireFly> zzo38: I agree about the new TCG rules
20:35:53 <ais523> seeing a speedrun of X is quite depressing, it has so many spare resources
20:36:19 <ais523> the current best known route uses vitamins to increase happiness to get the Lucky Egg earlier
20:36:25 <ais523> rather than needing them for battle
20:37:56 <ais523> the speedruns use Lucario but mega evolve it exactly once, in the mega evolution tutorial
20:38:11 <ais523> kind-of ridiculous to have that button option right there and not even need it
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20:43:53 <mrhmouse> I don't have a clue what's going on but I have the sudden desire to take my shoes off and eat canned spaghetti rings
20:45:21 <boily> mrhmouse: which brand?
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21:00:11 <boily> mrhmouse: call me a snob, but when it comes to canned pastas I accept nothing less than chef boyardee.
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21:04:08 <Bike> !bfjoust bathos (>-)*100000
21:04:11 <EgoBot> Score for Bike_bathos: 0.0
21:05:35 <boily> !bfjoust bathoff_the_end >*10([-..]>)*100000
21:05:37 <EgoBot> Score for boily_bathoff_the_end: 11.2
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21:05:51 <boily> bin torieux. that's I think the best score I achieved right there.
21:08:00 <ais523> it's creative, at least?
21:08:43 <boily> I got a score in the double digits! considering my past record, that's quite good!
21:18:33 <FireFly> Now aim for triple-digits.
21:19:37 <boily> has anyone ever achieved that?
21:22:27 <ais523> not sure if a perfect score would hit 100 or not
21:22:41 <ais523> although, one of my aims with omnipotence, and later preparation, was 1000 wins-losses
21:22:49 <ais523> I achieved that with preparation last night
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21:39:35 <Bike> wee oo wee oo, this is the turing police, present operator credentials or turing test results immediately
21:40:04 <olsner> fungot: friend of yours?
21:40:05 <fungot> olsner: but hey, 400 euros ( or more like... unsecured bbs with little ads, but people usually aren't direct implementations of formulas :)
21:40:14 <mrhmouse> I do believe ruddy would fail the Turing test, with flying colors
21:40:28 <ais523> I think a good Turing test would be to get the person you're testing to give a Turing test
21:40:49 <ais523> as the rate at which CAPTCHAs are broken indicates, computers suck at Turing-testing
21:41:18 <mrhmouse> have we tried the "pick which image from this set matches X criteria" approach yet?
21:41:32 <fizzie> I think you should be able to get a score of exactly 100, maybe.
21:42:32 <boily> fungot: fmap fmap fmap turing turing turing
21:42:32 <fungot> boily: what paren styles don't work?)
21:42:44 <boily> fungot: the ones you won't balance, you shmuck.
21:42:44 <fungot> boily: and with that good night to y'all! /bin/ sh it doesn't
21:42:55 <Taneb> mrhmouse, I think that's getting easier to be solved by computers
21:43:20 <mrhmouse> Taneb: I figured as much, since there are fewer possible answers
21:43:52 <mrhmouse> maybe if we mixed the two approaches (or any number of test types), with a random test each time instead of always a CAPTCHA?
21:44:31 <mrhmouse> ruddy: could you give me a Turing test?
21:44:32 <ruddy> well, you need operations that make use of those cells
21:44:33 <fizzie> It's also hard to get hold of large tagged image categories that your adversaries won't also get, which would mean you'd have to start again warping and distorting the images.
21:45:12 <mrhmouse> fizzie: the idea of warped and distorted pictures of kittens pleases me
21:45:20 <fizzie> Microsoft had a cats-vs.-dogs CAPTCHA.
21:45:33 <fizzie> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/asirra/
21:45:41 <fizzie> I remember when they introduced that thing.
21:46:27 <mrhmouse> scrolled to the bottom, saw the developers, immediately thought "these are terrible pictures of cats and/or dogs"
21:47:16 <fizzie> Also there's an "adopt me" link under each photo in ASIRRA, which means you may end up with a cat just because you were trying to log onto some website.
21:48:19 <olsner> can bots adapt the cats too?
21:48:31 <ruddy> 1 gram of TNT equivalent is equal (defined, even, I think) to 1 kcal
21:48:40 <fizzie> olsner: I would suppose they can do both.
21:48:44 <mrhmouse> I don't think he's qualified to own pets. what about fungot?
21:48:44 <fungot> mrhmouse: you why double you aitch why" is in evolution. he's the channel owner kicked out a lot of
21:48:51 <fizzie> olsner: Though the first one is a disquieting thought.
21:49:08 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not getting you a cat, just so you know.
21:49:08 <fungot> fizzie: there's enough spam in the channel who has been asked for id...)
21:50:12 <mrhmouse> selecting all the dogs when asked to select all of the cats determined that I am a bot.
21:50:20 <Bike> longshot, but does anyone have experience in making visuals for control flow
21:50:39 <fizzie> mrhmouse: I did that too, and was hoping for some sort of a funny message at least.
21:50:53 <olsner> iirc, one of the puzzles in seventh guest involved ruddy
21:50:56 <mrhmouse> fizzie: clearly they haven't calibrated their tests for sassiness
21:51:08 <boily> ruddy ruddy ruddy ♪
21:51:18 <mrhmouse> ruddy: row, row, row your boat
21:51:18 <ruddy> Row, row, row your butt
21:51:36 <ruddy> A black hole is kind of like contagious nothingness, except for the fact that it really isn't
21:52:26 <mrhmouse> ruddy is still very young, and doesn't have a large amount of data to work with
21:52:32 <mrhmouse> yes, that's actually about right
21:52:36 <fizzie> I was tasked to give a person something to get the attention of a dinosaur. I gave him/her a vuvuzela, but apparently it was *so* annoying that the person started attacking me. (Then the dinosaur ate him/her. The end.)
21:52:43 <olsner> so what does ruddy do?
21:52:44 <ruddy> he's sassy now already
21:52:54 <mrhmouse> well, he's sassy, and he spouts nonsense
21:52:54 <Bike> looks like a shitty chatterbot
21:53:29 <FireFly> ruddy, meat fungot. fungot, this is ruddy.
21:53:29 <fungot> FireFly: okay...... oh a web page that lame is not to be confused with fnord
21:53:30 <ruddy> sponsored by british taxpayers, of course)
21:53:48 <olsner> fizzie: vuvuzelas are approx. as loud as MRI machines
21:55:29 <mrhmouse> ruddy isn't as cool, but often gives more appropriate responses
21:55:30 <ruddy> that explains some weird behaviour
21:55:30 <boily> olsner: are you saying that when you're undergoing an MRI and/or a CAT scan it feels like a fast-spinning choir of faceless, robotic vuvuzelas?
21:56:06 <boily> fungot, don't you ever start tooting the vuvu. I'm already scared enough of you.
21:56:06 <fungot> boily: what do you mean? like goto statement ( i know jix isn't here but i have only read a foreword
21:56:09 <olsner> boily: a CAT scan is like silent
21:56:22 <boily> olsner: I wouldn't know. I never underwent one.
21:56:55 <boily> fungot: I wouldn't goto, I don't want any raptors charging, I shun the vuvuzelas.
21:56:56 <fungot> boily: " having points" like in between the towers.
21:57:41 <olsner> boily: neither sounds much at all like a vuvuzela fwiw
21:58:35 * boily SPINNING MAGNETIC CHICKENS!
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21:59:12 <Bike> so that's a no :(
21:59:21 <lexande> i think MRIs are deeper in pitch than vuvuzelas
21:59:38 <olsner> @tell boily the cat goes whirr (and tuk-tuk-tuks a bit when it moves you)
22:01:08 <olsner> mris have a surprisingly wide vocal range
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22:09:45 <HackEgo> oohlist (930): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
22:11:09 <mrhmouse> shachaf: is that similar to erflist?
22:11:55 <mrhmouse> I don't know what erflist does.
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22:30:40 <kmc> good morning friends
22:31:09 <olsner> morning? you must be in weird-timezone-land
22:31:28 <lambdabot> Local time for lifthrasiir is Thu Nov 14 07:31:26 2013
22:31:36 <olsner> +9? isn't that the wrong way?
22:32:02 <Bike> he's not in south america or alaska
22:32:08 <olsner> or did you go visit ... samsung?
22:33:03 <kmc> Thu Nov 14 07:33:00 KST 2013
22:33:12 <kmc> \rainbow{THE FUTURE}
22:33:24 <kmc> and yes, this week I'm working from Samsung Digital City
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01:06:34 <kmc> I'm drinking "Lotte DMZ" brand water http://web.tradekorea.com/upload_file2/product/163/P00346163/cbe9caa5_8547efa1_1f04_4180_8529_8e7d0eb186a1.jpg
01:06:38 <kmc> which is actually bottled from inside the DMZ apparently
01:27:17 <^v> * Disconnected (Invalid argument)
01:27:17 <^v> * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer)
01:27:17 <^v> * Disconnected (Remote host closed socket)
01:28:44 <kmc> what's an esper
01:28:53 <ion> An IRC network
01:29:03 <^v> a network that hit the fan
01:31:54 <^v> i think their entire net went down
01:47:31 <Bike> i'm uh, talking on esper right now.
01:48:14 <Bike> oh, there was a netsplit 26 minutes ago.
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02:16:35 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/breaking-intruders-detected-in-zone-17,34541/
02:16:44 <Sgeo> Is this parodying a specific game, or just a genre of games in general?
02:17:10 <kmc> Area Man Confused By Onion Article
02:17:18 <kmc> Sgeo: did you see the Onion is ending print publication :(
02:17:27 <kmc> what will I read if I'm ever at a Quiznos in Boulder, CO again :(
02:18:04 <Sgeo> kmc: yeah. I think I linked an Onion article poking fun at it
02:22:36 <Sgeo> What is it called when you have code that's working, but as far as you can tell it shouldn't be working, and you're trying to figure out why it's working?
02:32:29 <quintopia> how long until the other papers end print
02:33:00 <kmc> it's been going on for a while
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02:33:27 <shachaf> Hmm, Google News finds Onion articles, but adds "(satire)". :-(
02:35:17 <kmc> what do they add for links to the daily mail
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03:07:18 <ion> Even the ghosts know http://youtu.be/dXVNvfPetxU?t=2m37s
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04:40:04 <Sgeo> I designed a norn to drop dead instantly if he ever thought about eating elevators. He was stillborn.
04:40:23 <Bike> i take back everything mean i've ever said or thought about you sgeo, that rules
04:41:38 <Sgeo> http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050101192132/creatures/images/5/59/Chichi.png
04:42:02 <coppro> that does not answer my question
04:42:16 <Bike> `addquote <Sgeo> I designed a norn to drop dead instantly if he ever thought about eating elevators. He was stillborn.
04:42:20 <HackEgo> 1132) <Sgeo> I designed a norn to drop dead instantly if he ever thought about eating elevators. He was stillborn.
04:42:48 <Sgeo> A species, the main one the player is supposed to care for, in the Artificial Life series Creatures
04:43:29 <oklopol> and Sgeo hates those bastards
04:47:26 <Sgeo> I used to try to make paradises for Norns that arrived in my worlds from other people. Can you believe I actually poured antibacterial agents on incoming norns???
04:48:08 <Sgeo> (There's actually a reason to not do that besides 'not doing that sounds potentially mean' --- travelling to another person's world doesn't transfer bacteria)
05:00:25 <Sgeo> Not when I did it, but I learned/realized it later
05:00:56 <Sgeo> When I first started playing Creatures, I saw a norn hitting a toy, but I didn't realize it was a toy. I thought it was another creature, so I slapped the norn
05:01:19 <oklopol> and that's when it all started
05:01:40 <Sgeo> I've put norn brains in the useless body of the toy
05:01:42 <oklopol> didn't take long till you would hit them even if they didn't hit toys
05:02:34 <Sgeo> They sit there doing nothing and eventually starve to death
05:02:45 <oklopol> also how often do norns think of eating elevators
05:02:52 <Sgeo> Surprisingly often
05:03:10 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/EE_Syndrome
05:03:43 <Sgeo> Hmm... that's.. not what I had in mind
05:03:49 <Sgeo> I hadn't actually heard of that before now
05:03:57 <Sgeo> Just the same old tired "eat elevator" jokes
05:05:54 <oklopol> "eat elevator" jokes are "old" and "tired"?
05:06:00 <oklopol> i can assure you they are new to me
05:06:55 <Sgeo> http://www.creaturesvillage.com/helen/symptoms.php?ID=613
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05:13:18 <Sgeo> `olist 930 no one did this yet? really?
05:13:20 <HackEgo> olist 930 no one did this yet? really?: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
05:13:52 <shachaf> (In particular I did this yet.)
05:14:04 <Sgeo> I don't see that in the logs of 13 or 14
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06:57:45 <shachaf> Bike: wait which one was your definition of continuity again
06:59:34 <Bike> the shitty one, or the one i copied from wikipedia?
07:00:15 <kmc> can't it be both
07:00:27 <Bike> the wikipedia one wasn't shitty.
07:01:37 <Bike> "f is continuous at some point x ∈ X if and only if for any neighborhood V of f(x), there is a neighborhood U of x such that f(U) ⊆ V"
07:01:49 <shachaf> where neighborhood isn't required to be open?
07:02:54 <Bike> preimages of closed sets have to be closed anyway i guess
07:06:53 <shachaf> so i was reading about vaguely-hinting-at-pointless things in a book and now i want to figure out why the idea of a neighborhood even makes sense
07:07:13 <shachaf> when you define a thing with an arbitrary lattice rather than a set of open sets
07:07:42 <shachaf> (well, not arbitrary. a frame.)
07:08:43 <shachaf> anyway now the definition of continuity is obvious, it's just a structure-preserving thing such that knowing f(x) : Y doesn't give you any new information you couldn't get from x : X
07:09:02 <shachaf> and it goes backwards because, like, that's totally sensible and stuff
07:10:15 <shachaf> on the other hand neighborhoods aren't sensible anymore so help
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07:32:47 <oerjan> @tell oklopol <oklopol> however, presumably two unlimited cells are turing complete <-- i sincerely doubt it, my construction for three cells is related to two cell minsky but needs the extra cell to get around the limited flow control.
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07:35:14 <oerjan> @tell oklopol and even then i had to discover conway's collatz functions to get relatively satisfactory control flow in _that_. basically problem is (1) whenever you exit a loop one cell _must_ be 0 (2) you cannot enter a loop based on a cell being zero, without extra cells.
07:36:46 <oerjan> @tell myname no way 1 cell is enough and even 2 seems impossible, see my @tells to oklopol
07:37:40 <oerjan> @tell myname also, stop having the same first three letters as myndzi twh
07:38:06 <shachaf> so you're an expert in homology too right
07:38:44 <shachaf> someone was talking about something but i can't remember what
07:38:49 <oerjan> if using it a bit in one published article counts
07:39:19 * oerjan recalls blathering about algebraic topology the other day
07:39:27 <shachaf> oerjan: please fix infinite redirect in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_theory thx twh
07:40:11 <oerjan> what infinite redirect it works fine here
07:41:35 <oerjan> someone merged it out of existence.
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07:45:34 <fizzie> oerjan: "Using it a bit in one published article" is like the *definition* of "expert".
07:45:50 <shachaf> oerjan: i still don't know what a homology theory is :'(
07:46:10 <shachaf> plz fix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilenberg%E2%80%93Steenrod_axioms to make sense or something
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07:48:50 <oerjan> shachaf: SORRY, LOOKS COMPLETELY CLEAR TO ME
07:50:39 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a completely general setting, you basically need to learn the concreter versions to know why it's interesting?
07:52:03 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_sandwich_theorem nice article picture there
07:59:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i think singular homology is like the basic version. (my published use used Alexander-(Spanier-)Čech homology which works in general compact hausdorff spaces or something)
08:07:54 * kmc wonders if lexande highlights on "ham sandwich"
08:09:53 <shachaf> is there a vegetarian version of the theorem
08:10:01 <kmc> seitan sandwich
08:15:28 <kmc> what are you carpentering?
08:16:22 <oerjan> i'm not, the neighbor is
08:17:00 <oerjan> a clear infringement of my human rights to silence
08:19:46 <kmc> have some loud sex
08:21:10 <oklopol> oerjan: oh cool maybe someone should prove that brainfuck with two cells is not universal
08:23:55 <oklopol> say,for brainfuck with k cells, we say the language of a program is the set of numbers n such that (n,0,0,...,0) (where we have k-1 zeroes) eventually halts
08:24:25 <oklopol> from what k on is there a bf program with re-complete language?
08:24:45 <oklopol> okay, just wanted to check i formalized this sensibly
08:24:58 <oerjan> assuming you can do reencoding of n before starting.
08:25:28 <oerjan> no, you can do that inside bf with 3 cells too.
08:25:50 <oklopol> re-complete with respect to just general 1-1 reductions by turing machines, say
08:26:31 <oerjan> oklopol: just that since the method depends on converting via fractran, you want an original n encoded as 3*2^n or something equivalently handleable. but you can do that conversion inside bf.
08:26:44 <oklopol> for re-completeness, what does that matter
08:27:31 <oklopol> i guess it matters if you want some sensible set of (unary) languages i guess
08:27:50 <oklopol> i'm definitely interested in what the exact set is for unary
08:27:53 <oerjan> for k=1 you cannot use >< at all (at best they wrap around to the same cell), so you have a balanced bf program with one cell, which is basically a linear loop at most
08:29:09 <oklopol> a loop without inner loops
08:29:19 <oklopol> will either increment of decrement
08:29:28 <oerjan> if you have a loop, then you either never halt it it, or halt with 0.
08:29:32 <oklopol> if it increments, then we're in trouble
08:29:50 <oerjan> so all depends on the first loop.
08:30:16 <oerjan> before it, you can do some +-constant
08:30:44 <oklopol> actually i guess all depends on what happens before we first exit a []?
08:31:08 <oerjan> right, i just realized that's not necessarily the same ] in all cases
08:32:21 <oklopol> so there are finitely many states which you can enter, depending on the number
08:32:38 <oklopol> (the states after exitting some [])
08:32:47 <oklopol> (state being program counter value)
08:33:08 <oklopol> and at that point your counter is 0
08:33:11 <oerjan> if you have ]+], that loop will never halt.
08:33:35 <oerjan> well, if it's entered at all
08:33:54 <lifthrasiir> do you all assume that ++[--->+<] never halts?
08:34:13 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: we're dealing with a single cell right now
08:34:19 <lexande> kmc: i don't, but maybe i should
08:34:25 <oklopol> we should probably specify whether we can go under 0
08:34:41 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: also, it is unbounded, so no wrapping
08:35:21 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: we were just trying to find out exactly what can be the halting condition of a single cell bf program
08:36:06 <oklopol> we encounter the first ] depending solely on n up to a threshold, right
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08:36:27 <oklopol> like we might encounter different ] first, depending on which loops are skipped, but if n is big, then we'll necessarily go inside all.
08:36:41 <oklopol> when we meet the first ], i guess we're done?
08:37:01 <oerjan> hm seems so, the rest is just tracing the result from a 0
08:37:06 <oklopol> because you'll be in that loop, and what happens depends only on n (might look at parity if you can go under 0)
08:37:35 <oklopol> so i think you get finite languages or languages with finite complement if you can't go under 0
08:37:52 <oerjan> um i was assuming unbounded negative too...
08:38:51 <oklopol> maybe you then get something like n = a + bm for some m, modulo getting to choose first k values arbitrarily
08:39:06 <lifthrasiir> well, first assume that (x) translates to x +s when x>0, x -s when x<0, or nothing when x=0. and {X} code {Y} means that if X holds for the initial state then after code runs Y holds for the current state (or may enter an infinite loop). then {cell=x} (n) {cell=x+n}, {cell=x} [(n)] {sign(cell)+sign(n)=0 and (n=0 or cell%n=0)}.
08:39:49 <oklopol> (big enough n will necessarily bump into the first ] in the program, and from that on you either halt or don't, on that it depends whether you get the arithmetic sequence a + bm. finitely many values of n might behave differently.)
08:39:59 <oerjan> and no, we don't just get that. we get modulo conditions, e.g. [---] halts on n == 0 (mod 3)
08:40:18 <oklopol> so a = 0 and b = 3 in n = a + bm
08:40:23 <oerjan> (sorry if you already said that, i got disconnected for a moment)
08:40:40 <oklopol> i gave a conjecture about the case where you can go negative, with a proof sketch
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08:41:04 <oklopol> i don't know what lifthrasiir is saying
08:41:48 <lifthrasiir> or, are you asking for the {cell=x} ... things?
08:41:48 <oklopol> so a = 0 and b = 3 in n = a + bm
08:42:23 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: i don't know what you proved
08:42:39 <lifthrasiir> oklopol, no, I didn't prove anything, I'm just trying to formalize things a bit
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08:44:41 <oklopol> oerjan: big enough n will necessarily bump into the first ] in the program, and from that on you either halt or don't, depending on whether n is in the arithmetic sequence of things that go to 0. you take that arithmetic sequence in the language if the program halts from that point, with counter value 0. finitely many values of n might behave differently.
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08:45:16 <oklopol> "depending on whether n is in the arithmetic sequence of things that go to 0" which you get from looking at how many times the first innermost loop increments
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08:45:52 <oklopol> i don't know what the "modulo finitely many values" means though
08:46:06 <oklopol> but at least this would already prove that the language is trivial anyway, in the sense of formal language theory
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08:48:19 <oerjan> oklopol: hm i suspect you can choose behavior exactly how you want on finitely many values, + your one arithmetic sequence
08:48:55 <oerjan> that is, choose any finite set union an (optional) arithmetic sequence as your halting set
08:49:00 <oklopol> i suspected that as well, until i started thinking about how to do it
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08:49:28 <oerjan> well assume the sequence goes upward
08:49:49 <oklopol> how do you just any finite language?
08:50:16 <oklopol> how do you implement a finite language
08:50:46 <oerjan> 1,3,7,10,20,30,... can be done as:
08:51:04 <oerjan> -[--[----[---[----------]]]]
08:51:22 <oerjan> i think that's pretty generalizable :P
08:51:49 <oerjan> -1,3,7,10,20,30,... : +[----[----[---[----------]]]]
08:53:07 <oerjan> at least we can then just identify > and <
08:53:15 <oerjan> by saying the tape wraps
08:53:49 <oklopol> so each sequence either flips tapes or not
08:53:50 <oerjan> but now we can leave a loop with one cell non-zero.
08:54:29 <oerjan> oklopol: well, it might still vary which cell a particular loop halts on
08:55:05 <oerjan> it's no longer guaranteed balanced, e.g. [-<] could halt anywhere
08:55:38 <oklopol> we should come up with a better symbol for > and <
08:56:08 <oklopol> it looks like an eXchange of counters too
08:57:25 <oerjan> now we can do the usual multiplication by a constant stuff like [-<+++++>]
08:59:16 <oklopol> isn't the first ] we hit in any case the same when n is large enough
08:59:41 <oerjan> and in an innermost loop, [--<+++++>] with all parts optional is basically the same.
08:59:51 <oerjan> oklopol: i think that is true independent of number of cells
09:00:03 <oerjan> *is basically all we can have
09:00:07 <oklopol> i'm just wondering if we should start there
09:00:20 <oklopol> but err, what do you mean basically the same
09:01:13 <oerjan> i got confused and pressed enter with an unfinished sentence
09:02:25 <oerjan> [--<+++++>] either fails to halt, or adds 5/2 of the initial cell to the other, clearing the first.
09:02:27 <oklopol> so we have two kinds of non-nested loops: 1) balanced ones: ones that hang up if n is not in a particular arithmetic sequence cm, m in \N, and otherwise zero n and multiply the other counter by dn/c
09:02:53 <oklopol> multiplies it by that you mean, or are you thinking of Q with multiplication with additive notation
09:03:20 <oerjan> um it's basically the same as what you said in (1)
09:03:32 <oklopol> yes, just wanted to know why you said add
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09:04:10 <oerjan> one interesting fact: all loops after the first to exit will have a cell with a known value.
09:04:41 <FireFly> Is this two-infinitely-huge-cells brainfuck?
09:04:59 <oerjan> but before you start a later loop, one of the cells is known
09:05:42 <oerjan> if you have something like [..[....]...]
09:05:59 <oerjan> after the inner loop ends, a cell is known to be zero.
09:06:21 <oerjan> so that cell has known value from there on to the next ]
09:07:14 <oklopol> i get the feeling that only one of the counters will have a big value after the first ] is met
09:07:54 <oklopol> (trivially, but i mean maybe that's important and we should like call that n and think of which counter it is in as a state, or something)
09:07:55 <oerjan> iirc i thought a big of this stuff back when i was doing the 3-cell thing.
09:08:32 <oerjan> but definitely not all the way through
09:09:11 <oerjan> now that you mention it, the idea of treating the small counter as a state also rings a bell
09:09:48 <oklopol> when it comes to trivial things
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09:10:10 <oerjan> or well, i don't think it's entirely true. they might still get big in a non-halting way.
09:10:39 <oklopol> but i prefer thinking as such loops as LOOP FOREVER LOL instructions
09:10:45 <oerjan> like, [-->--<] can loop indefinitely even if one cell starts zero
09:11:20 <oerjan> however, after a ] until the next ]/[ this holds.
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09:13:37 <oerjan> i think that may be a program that halts for powers of 2.
09:14:42 <oerjan> i was thinking if everything was still arithmetic sequences, then this popped up
09:16:01 <oklopol> perhaps we are in the presence of a legendary beast, thinking it's a koala
09:18:24 <oklopol> perhaps it's just that you can do trivial checks for factors
09:18:38 <oerjan> it might be possible to get rid of nonbalanced loops by replacing ]x stuff with ]x[-x+] stuff
09:19:32 <oerjan> because you don't actually care _which_ cell is zero, mostly.
09:20:02 <oklopol> there's no way to detect a stack exchange
09:20:14 <oerjan> oh hm this may have some trouble if you don't know sign.
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09:20:44 <oklopol> perhaps all things need to know sign anyway
09:20:50 <oklopol> because they hang up for the other sign
09:21:00 <oklopol> alrighty i have to go swimming now
09:21:26 <oklopol> but i think we're pretty close, tell me if you come up with the last few details :)
09:21:52 <oerjan> ok but now brain needs rest
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10:26:30 <oerjan> <ruddy> 1 gram of TNT equivalent is equal (defined, even, I think) to 1 kcal <-- most interesting, are you sure you're a bot?
10:26:31 <ruddy> can you say "oerjan"?
10:26:41 <ruddy> That's the one with Captain Gandalf?
10:26:56 <oerjan> ruddy: i don't think i've had the honor.
10:26:57 <ruddy> that was a lie, no I haven't
10:28:37 <oerjan> <fungot> mrhmouse: you why double you aitch why" is in evolution. he's the channel owner kicked out a lot of <-- no, i am quite sure that's _not_ how "evolution" is spelled.
10:28:37 <fungot> oerjan: the eye socket parts are probably paper thin just like real ones
10:28:46 <fungot> oerjan: nothing in haskell says you can't just grovel through stack frames manually. take a few decades.) without problems, but when i started working on implementing scheme, by the way
10:28:47 <olsner> calories have to do with the heating of water, if 1 gram of TNT matches that would be a p. big coincidence I think
10:29:02 <oerjan> olsner: it's an arbitrary definition
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10:30:29 <olsner> huh, it's actually true
10:31:09 <olsner> one gram of TNT contains (almost) exactly as much energy as it takes to heat one kg of water one degree
10:33:58 <olsner> *almost exactly approximately
10:34:04 <olsner> "A gram of TNT releases 4100–4602 joules upon explosion. To define the tonne of TNT, this was arbitrarily standardized by letting 1 gram TNT = 4184 J (exactly)."
10:51:26 <FireFly> fungot: doesn't sound terribly efficient to me
10:51:26 <fungot> FireFly: where does uml fit into that number
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11:35:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/THif Yes, that looks very optimized.
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14:00:27 <boily> good kernel morning!
14:01:03 <lambdabot> olsner said 16h 1m 24s ago: the cat goes whirr (and tuk-tuk-tuks a bit when it moves you)
14:01:43 <boily> olsner: ..................?
14:02:04 <boily> (cat goes whirr, dog goes screeeeech... ♪)
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14:52:23 <boily> john_metcalf: hush! I'm trying to unearwom myself!
14:56:44 <fizzie> What does the earworm say?
14:58:00 <oklopol> [16:44:10] <karelian> ducks say quack
14:58:00 <oklopol> [16:44:17] <karelian> and fish go blub
14:58:06 <oklopol> [16:47:31] <john_metcalf> boily: what the fox say?
14:58:19 <oklopol> what is all this synchronicity between #esoteric and #japanese
14:58:28 <oklopol> there is little intersection
14:58:59 <boily> everything intersects in one way or another.
14:59:06 <kmc> mmm synchronicity
14:59:08 <oklopol> i mean it's not like the fox thing is _everywhere_ on the internet RITE
14:59:16 <boily> (that reminds me I haven't perturbed elliott with ##crawl-talk for a long time...)
14:59:51 <fizzie> oklopol: The fox thing was #1 on Spotify's list of most listened songs for the geographical region "Finland".
15:00:04 <fizzie> (Last I looked, a week or two ago.)
15:00:04 <boily> and trying to join #japanese ends me up into ##namespace.
15:00:50 <oklopol> boily: ohhh maybe i'm imagining the whole channel
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15:08:01 <kmc> not endoresd by the japan
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15:17:15 <Gregor> If there WERE an official channel for Japanese, it would be #japanese.
15:21:23 <mrhmouse> wouldn't it be #nihongo or #nippon or something? unless IRC supports Unicode channel names
15:21:51 <kmc> utf-7 is the way to go
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15:23:23 <boily> freenode - :: #日本語 :Illegal channel name
15:24:36 <mrhmouse> I was busy looking up whether freenode supported non-ASCII :P
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15:28:43 <mrhmouse> I just see a past-tense verb. I haven't read Japanese in years :I
15:29:27 * boily frappe kmc avec une po+AOo-le en acier galavanis+AOk-
15:29:51 <boily> どういたしまして 《どう致しまして(P); 如何致しまして》 (int) (uk) you are welcome; don't mention it; not at all; my pleasure; (P)
15:35:24 <boily> mrhmouse: did you have classes? if so, how many years? what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
15:41:42 <int-e> are you trying to set up a catapult, and if so, what's the destination?
15:44:37 <boily> no, I'm trying to find this channel's centroïd, and see if it falls on Hexham.
15:44:57 <mrhmouse> boily: I didn't take classes. I studied independently in highschool with resources I found online.
15:45:35 <mrhmouse> I've got a spiral notebook of the 300 or so kana that I once knew. But that's been since sophomore year of highschool, and without anybody to converse with, I've lost it all
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15:50:11 <boily> mrhmouse: can you translate “sophomore year of highschool” into Canadianese?
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15:55:37 <nooodl> boily: the schoolyear when you're 15-16 years old
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16:00:07 <boily> oh. «Secondaire 4».
16:01:03 <boily> incidentally, I tried beginning thinking about starting to maybe try to learn basic Japanese around that time.
16:03:56 <nooodl> me too!! well, that's when i got even kinda serious about it. i'd learnt hiragana at age 12 but gave up again soon after
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16:04:35 <nooodl> i definitely remember not being in the secondaire yet at the time
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16:08:58 <boily> education systems of the world endlessly confuse me, especially France's. I can never remember when «lycée» and «collège» happen, let alone what are those university year designations («bac + 5» ???).
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16:16:39 <boily> quintopia: joyeux noël à toi aussi!
16:18:02 <quintopia> boily: you christmas present is on its way
16:20:21 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: as it happens, you're only a little bit off. my birthday falls on December 24.
16:20:28 <boily> quintopia: woot ^^
16:20:59 <quintopia> boily: that must have been annoying
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16:21:36 <quintopia> kids birthdays should be as far from christmas as possible, to maximize presentage
16:23:56 <boily> it's far from annoying. a holiday is garanteed, I spend time with my family, and there are various offers and rebates and discounts for many things (mwah ah ah).
16:24:42 <boily> also, my parents have fun, like that year where I got that nice chair frame on my birthday, but the cushions on Christmas.
16:25:31 <quintopia> i think it'd be better to have a birthday on jan. 1
16:25:51 <quintopia> after-christmas sales are the best
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17:32:16 <FireFly> quintopia: I suppose early august is pretty good in that regard
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17:52:26 <fizzie> Today's Scribblenaut: a man needed something to contain an ooze. I gave him "big klein bottle". Somehow, he managed to get the ooze *inside* it.
18:01:02 <boily> obviously a klein bottle has an inside.
18:01:29 <fizzie> But it's the same side as the outside.
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18:02:32 <boily> only a minor detail.
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18:19:51 <ion> Meanwhile on the Kindle http://imgur.com/a/EMBIM
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18:21:17 <boily> ion: Z̩̦͘A̠L̘̭̼G̱̯̲̻̗̰͔O̞̫̤̣̥,͈̗ ̟͉̥͎h̪̩̦͎̫͡e͇̺̝͈͎ͅ ̧e̦̺̘p̼͍͉͓̦ͅu̼͚̱̦b̠̰͕̪̖͘s͏̱!̸̗̜͓ͅ
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18:25:12 <int-e> I guess that's pronounced just as it's written?
18:25:36 <mrhmouse> int-e: the b̠̰͕̪̖͘s͏̱!̸̗̜͓ͅ is silent
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18:32:43 <olsner> boily: I was going to say that yesterday and then you left
18:34:07 <boily> oh. that kind of cat.
18:34:42 <HackEgo> [U+0205 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH DOUBLE GRAVE]
18:34:57 <oerjan> wtf which language has that
18:35:49 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_grave_accent
18:36:00 <int-e> scholary discussions. nice!
18:36:22 <olsner> btw, android's libc is pretty crappy... discovered today that its fork() deadlocks occasionally
18:37:11 <olsner> (also: its pselect is just sigprocmask+select, which defeats the point of the function existing in the first place)
18:39:43 <olsner> (and fopen and getaddrinfo are not thread safe, but I guess that's fair since nothing I've found explicitly declares that they have to be)
18:39:55 <boily> ~eval let lev a b = let lev' i j = if min i j == 0 then max i j else minimum [lev' (i - 1) j + 1, lev' i (j - 1) + 1, lev' (i - 1) (j - 1) + (if a !! (i - 1) /= b !! (j - 1) then 1 else 0)] in lev' (length a) (length b) in lev "oerjan" "olsner"
18:40:03 <boily> ~eval let lev a b = let lev' i j = if min i j == 0 then max i j else minimum [lev' (i - 1) j + 1, lev' i (j - 1) + 1, lev' (i - 1) (j - 1) + (if a !! (i - 1) /= b !! (j - 1) then 1 else 0)] in lev' (length a) (length b) in lev "oerjan" "olsner"
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18:41:06 <mroman_> I thought that was the conclusion of the latest discussion about that particular topic
18:41:37 <fizzie> Given C11, that's kind of a strange conclusion.
18:41:44 <mrhmouse> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Concurrent_computing#C
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18:43:19 <mrhmouse> Wait, I missed the whole chain of messages from olsner. Ignore that.
18:44:16 <mrhmouse> On a separate note: what fascinating thing are you building that needs to use C on an Android device, olsner?
18:45:42 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/console-wars-heat-up-as-zenith-unveils-gamespace-p,34551/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
18:46:04 <oerjan> boily: i think your algorithm has unnecessary exponential blowup
18:46:07 <olsner> fwiw, the fork thing affects java too, since the Process implementation eventually does fork+exec
18:46:29 <olsner> not sure about the other stuff, but it wouldn't be too weird if dns stuff uses getaddrinfo
18:47:23 <olsner> mrhmouse: "work stuff" :)
18:48:58 <mrhmouse> Have you isolated the issue to Android's version of libc, or is there some bug report you're working off of?
18:53:01 <olsner> these are only the bugs I know and that I found proof of or fixes for (fixed in *some* version of bionic, which just means you know the bug exists in all the older versions)
18:57:36 <boily> oerjan: I only needed a naïve oneliner. I know I could iterate over a pair of vectors, but that would have implied thinking.
18:59:07 <boily> `learn onëliners are pairs of unfathomable vectors in the category of exponential distance.
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19:02:17 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
19:02:24 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
19:05:03 <AnotherTest> people write paper and make a mistake in their algorithm
19:06:36 <boily> bugs do have to originate from somewhere. you weren't thinking that they just appeared out of nowhere in production code?
19:07:02 <boily> it takes many man-hours to produce good quality, free-range bugs.
19:07:15 <AnotherTest> no, they made a "logical" mistake in the pseudocode
19:07:47 <AnotherTest> this paper looks at if it hasn't been read by anyone at all
19:08:09 <boily> mass-producing cheap bug knock-offs amateurs.
19:08:22 <AnotherTest> "Modified integer factorization algorithm using V-Factor method"
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19:11:41 <AnotherTest> I have an algorithm here that outpreforms it and is just as simple, and I don't really think it's ready for publication yet
19:12:01 <Bike> ion: utm_campaign=butt
19:12:24 <AnotherTest> well I haven't really thought about writing a paper or anything either
19:12:40 <mrhmouse> Bike: from the butt, for the butt
19:13:00 <AnotherTest> (btw, do people even look at papers from people in highschool)
19:13:22 <Bike> not if they can't help it
19:16:39 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/7IVS5LT.jpg britain rules
19:19:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> where neighborhood isn't required to be open? <-- the definition of continuity is equivalent whether you require them to be or not.
19:20:22 <shachaf> oerjan: right but why do neighborhoods even make sense
19:21:16 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/onëliner{s,}
19:21:42 <Slereah> "The original notation was two dimensional."
19:22:58 <boily> Slereah: why is it gross? I like it.
19:24:02 <Slereah> It's not abstract enough to have the beauty of some abstract notation, but not computery enough to look like some serious machine code
19:25:53 <oerjan> <Bike> preimages of closed sets have to be closed anyway i guess <-- um that's yet another definition of (global) continuity
19:28:48 <boily> the sweet-and-sour spot of Baudot encoded languages.
19:29:28 <Bike> oerjan: that's wh at i meant, yes
19:29:34 <oerjan> shachaf: in the one definition, a neighborhood is just an open set containing your chosen point, which are important for being able to say anything local to a point. in the other definition where they aren't open, neigborhoods of a point form a _filter_, which is important as one way to generalize what you take limits in.
19:30:25 <shachaf> ok my book talks about that so i'll read about that??
19:31:36 <shachaf> oerjan: why does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_filter redirect to an article that says "Hence, most additional information on this topic (including the definition of maximal filters and prime filters) is to be found in the article on ideals."
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19:34:55 <oerjan> shachaf: well the article on ideals doesn't seem to define them either.
19:35:52 <oerjan> hm well i guess it does.
19:36:15 <shachaf> maybe you need to read the thing that says that an ideal is dual to a filter before that makes sense
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19:40:48 <oerjan> well you'll be happy to know that it no longer redirects there hth
19:41:21 <oerjan> also i have started bypassing the script lately tdnh
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19:42:17 <oerjan> the one that censors any line ending with things like
19:44:23 <boily> how did you manage to hth in “... redirects there hth” but not in “... with things like”?
19:46:27 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, you have a script to censor "hth"?
19:46:43 <oerjan> boily: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun
19:46:48 <oerjan> shachaf: elliott made it
19:47:47 <boily> oerjan: and now I know.
19:48:07 * boily tries to sing «hth, hthhhhh, hhhhhhhhhhhthhhh ♪»
19:48:46 <oerjan> remarkable effort from a french speaker there
19:49:07 <oerjan> are you sure you're not abusing them all being silent
19:53:07 <boily> don't pay attention to the silent h behind the curtain.
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19:59:00 <boily> from wikipédia's samples, I can't make no difference between [ħ] and [h].
20:03:21 * boily glares at myname while he thinks of a suitable counter-attack
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20:05:58 <boily> (meanwhile, I like south (django's (the web platform (or framework, I lost count (a character in Sesame (you never can get enough of it on maki (ja:巻 en:scroll) sushi) Street))) migration tool))
20:08:26 <oerjan> boily: sounds a little one-directional
20:09:16 <int-e> Maybe it's the winter (when birds migrate south) version and you'll have to wait for the summer one.
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20:18:56 <boily> oerjan: I do not listen to One Direction. all I know is that it's kinda like the latest manufactured boy band or something. eeqça.
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20:25:30 * myname wonders if rule of fun is in any way related to dwarf fortres
20:27:42 <boily> “Failure Is the Only Option: "Losing is Fun!" became the official motto for a reason.”
20:28:03 <boily> “Hilarity Ensues: Look, if you actually get upset when one of your dwarves gets into a foul mood because you killed his cat on accident, beats up another dwarf who then gets ticked off enough to put his pick into the head of another dwarf who then lies there decaying on the ground, causing bad smells that drive a handful of the other dwarves unhappy enough to pick up axes until bleeding, insane and dead
20:28:05 <boily> dwarves litter your fortress, you're playing it wrong. Losing is Fun, after all!”
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20:30:37 <boily> for the time being, I'll stick with good ol' DCSS. I'm not yet prepared to be maximally enfunised.
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20:50:44 <mrhmouse> while we're on the subject of games with roguelike interfaces.. Does anybody know of a worthwhile multiplayer roguelike?
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20:55:37 <mrhmouse> Obviously turn-based play is probably out the window. I'm more interested in the general nature of the game (dungeon diving for some mythical item while leveling up along the way).
20:56:28 <myname> i only knew one which i didn't get :/
20:56:38 <Bike> diablo clearly
20:57:52 <myname> i thought of making my own rl, but i don't have time right now
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21:04:45 <mrhmouse> mangband looks like what I'm looking for! Bike: I've never played any of the Diablo games. Are they local multiplayer or online?
21:05:23 <Bike> online, apparently. i wasn't really serious
21:05:27 <mrhmouse> @tell boily thanks for suggesting mangband, looks great
21:05:34 <Bike> well, it has LAN, i don't know what you mean by "local" exactly
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21:05:53 <mrhmouse> Bike: same screen == local to me
21:06:03 <Bike> right, so no, doesn't have that
21:06:06 <myname> i never played any *band so i didn't get warm with mangband
21:06:56 <mrhmouse> it really saddens me how few games these days include same-screen co-op play :/
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21:36:42 <fungot> FireFly: def command lang code tends to go fubar when you haven't yet
21:37:03 <mrhmouse> fungot: when you haven't what yet?
21:37:03 <fungot> mrhmouse: i'm not seeing the 32bit loving code in pre-scheme. but it makes it a good target
21:38:02 <mrhmouse> I'm not sure if you mean target (expected runtime platform) or target (receiver of projectiles)
21:39:26 <mrhmouse> I'm sure ruddy knows what you're talking about, though
21:39:26 <ruddy> USually some kind of technical issue.
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21:52:51 <mrhmouse> ruddy, we're no longer in the 1990s...
21:55:41 <boily> ruddy: dis, as in the Iron City of the same name?
21:56:22 <boily> mrhmouse: your bot is scary. he invokes branches of Hell.
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22:12:49 <FireFly> ruddy: so um, what esolangs do you like?
22:13:03 <FireFly> ruddy: stop trying to avoid the question. We need to know.
22:13:04 <ruddy> and the point I'm making is that I really like this story.
22:13:17 <mrhmouse> clearly ruddy wants to tell us a story
22:14:12 <boily> ruddy learns fast!
22:14:19 <boily> and ruddy is modest!
22:14:29 <mrhmouse> ruddy is pretty negative today..
22:14:30 <Bike> ok i'm liking this chatterbot's style now.
22:14:41 <boily> ruddy is fungot in disguise.
22:14:52 <boily> fungot: I saw it too.
22:14:52 <fungot> boily: sure: cd /usr/ pkgsrc/ fonts/ misc has fnord
22:14:58 <boily> (also, http://eleks.github.io/js2js/)
22:15:32 <FireFly> fungot has a fnord font? I'm not too surprised.
22:15:32 <fungot> FireFly: my mouse just goes poof. time to apply that procedure, so the value of writing them anybody want to clue me in on the fnord
22:16:08 <FireFly> fungot: I thought your box was headless...
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22:21:11 <mrhmouse> ruddy: row, row, row your botsnack
22:21:11 <ruddy> before you break my heart
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22:24:46 <Bike> i think i'm seriously considering memoizing a function over all possible floats.
22:26:08 <Bike> because calling it a billion times takes twenty seconds and i'd rather it not.
22:26:53 <FireFly> I was thinking of making a LUT for all possible floats
22:27:22 <`^_^v> how do you memoize a function over all possible floats
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22:27:37 <Bike> you don't, it's stupid
22:27:52 <`^_^v> i'm just trying to figure out what that means
22:28:00 <`^_^v> cause it sounds like you want to precalculate, not memoize
22:28:21 <mrhmouse> it sounds like he wants to do both
22:28:31 <Bike> it sounds like everything is terrible!
22:28:32 <FireFly> couldn't you use something hashmappy to map floats to values? it seems like it'd be easy to write a good hash function for floats
22:29:16 <Bike> i think i need better metrics. draw up a distribution of the billion values this is called on
22:30:50 <mrhmouse> anything that floats and isn't a duck is clearly a witch and I don't trust it
22:33:50 <FireFly> No no, it just has to weigh the same as a duck, obviously
22:34:15 * FireFly throws Bike's floats in the water
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22:38:49 <mrhmouse> Huh. Right to the bottom. At least now you know your floats aren't witches, Bike
22:40:18 <mrhmouse> Although they may now be guests at a seedy hotel
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22:58:45 <kmc> `frink 96.7 kg to lbs
22:59:35 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "px". \ Bounds in range expression are of unsupported types: (10 px (undefined symbol), 1) \ at frink.expr.bh.byte(frink) \ at frink.expr.bh.evaluate(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.parseString(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.parseStrings(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.main(frink) \ Bounds in range expression
22:59:54 <olsner> why is pounds written lbs?
23:02:19 <ais523> I think it's a corruption of the Latin for "pound"
23:02:32 <ais523> but I can't remember exactly how it's spelt
23:03:01 <FireFly> Wikipedia says "The unit is descended from the Roman libra (hence the abbreviation "lb"); the name pound is a Germanic adaptation of the Latin phrase libra pondo, 'a pound by weight'"
23:03:59 <FireFly> As far as I can tell 'libra' as a unit of weight originated in Latin
23:06:55 <ais523> wow, this spambot put "Dear Smith Alex, " and my email address in the subject line of the email
23:07:17 <ais523> and the email itself looks similar to XML but isn't because it's got some text before the <?xml:> tag
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23:08:04 <ais523> also, it appears to be OOXML using no tags but <p> tags and with all spaces changed to nonbreaking spaces
23:08:17 <ais523> and the links aren't even hyperlinked
23:08:34 <ais523> in other words, this email could have been written entirely in plaintext, and would look the same as intended if it had been
23:09:07 <ais523> this is a good argument for using the right format for your messages :)
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02:18:01 <quintopia> FireFly: early august is good in what regard? scrolling back forever is a pain
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02:19:47 <doesthiswork> delimited continuations are exceedingly esoteric
02:21:58 <kmc> the irc is coming from inside the house
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02:32:53 <quintopia> doesthiswork: do you have any languages
02:34:03 <doesthiswork> although I'm trying to figure out how to make a inconsistent logic programming language work just well enough to be evil
02:35:32 <doesthiswork> And I have an idea for a language that uses a lazy learning mechanism to parse the input into constructs
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02:46:31 <doesthiswork> the beautiful thing about that is it will change semantics over time
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02:47:02 <Bike> like what you do in lecture
02:47:08 <Bike> sleep through it and read the textbook
02:47:08 <quintopia> also inconsistent logic sounds to me like the kind of system where explosion happens
02:47:39 <doesthiswork> apparently para inconsistent logics don't explode
02:49:00 <Bike> can you just drop proof by disjunction
02:49:02 <doesthiswork> lazy learning is basically classifying input using the k-nearest neighbors from the training data.
02:49:05 <Bike> fix everything in one fell swoop
02:50:28 <doesthiswork> logic programming without modus ponens would be funny
02:51:22 <doesthiswork> yes I think dropping proof by disjunction would be good
02:51:42 <ais523> doesthiswork: actually quite a lot of study of logic is proving that modus ponens is unnecessary
02:51:51 <ais523> as in, not actually /wrong/, just they design their logics so they never have to use it
02:51:54 <ais523> because it screws things up
02:52:45 <coppro> ais523: why does it screw things up?
02:53:18 <ais523> coppro: basically because the structure of a term no longer guides its derivatoin
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03:12:27 <Bike> Anyone here know about building computers?
03:12:55 <Bike> i'm thinking i should have a pretty good windows computer but i don't know shit.
03:13:00 <^v> step 1. newegg.com
03:13:05 <^v> step 2. newegg.com
03:13:08 <^v> step 3. newegg.com
03:13:17 <Bike> how many steps are there
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03:13:49 <^v> wget http://old-computer-parts/
03:14:57 <Bike> Hey, tht's not a real website!
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03:31:50 <Sgeo> kmc: is there a good reason for blocking the ability to make diamond structures without requiring the GC?
03:32:04 <Sgeo> Cyclic structures needing GC makes sense
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03:51:51 <Sgeo> You can have a data type that could potentially have diamonds without it being able to potentially have cycles
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04:11:45 <kmc> Sgeo: what do you mean, how is it blocked?
04:12:17 <Sgeo> Can't have two owned pointers to the same box, right?
04:12:33 <kmc> that would require reference counting or some other scheme to decide when they've both gone away
04:12:49 <kmc> owned boxes have deterministic memory management; when an owning pointer is destroyed, the box is freed
04:12:55 <kmc> so they have to be unique
04:13:14 <kmc> @ is actually just refcounted and not GC'd at the moment
04:13:18 <kmc> it's expected to change in the future
04:13:38 <kmc> there's also a library type Rc<T> which provides a more semantically clean version of refcounting
04:13:48 <kmc> but Rust doesn't have smart pointer deref sugar yet, so it's a bit more cumbersome to use
04:14:01 <kmc> Rc<T> also statically forbids cycles
04:14:35 <kmc> and there's Arc<T> which is "atomic reference counting" and can be shared between tasks
04:14:40 <kmc> and there are mut versions of both
04:15:03 <kmc> (an Rc<T> is an ownership root much like an @T, so it determines the mutability of the stuff inside)
04:16:25 <kmc> Sgeo: people have argued you shouldn't think of ~T as a pointer at all; it's a value type similar to T but with an optimization to make sure it's never bigger than a word
04:17:08 <kmc> and also allows recursive structures... a ~T can hold another ~T but a struct can't contain a copy of the same struct
04:17:18 <kmc> they talk about a world where ~int and int have the same representation
04:23:50 <lifthrasiir> I think a proper garbage collection in Rust would involve some kind of type visitors in order to detect the cycle
04:24:01 <ais523> kmc: what if an &int exists borrowed from that ~int?
04:24:09 <ais523> oh, would the &int point to the ~int rather than to the underlying int?
04:25:03 <lifthrasiir> ais523, &int points to the underlying int, but &int cannot live longer than ~int.
04:25:16 <ais523> lifthrasiir: I know it can't
04:25:22 <ais523> but with ~int being the same as int, there isn't an underlying int
04:25:57 <kmc> borrowing an ~int to an &int would then be the same as borrowing an int to an &int
04:26:00 <ais523> you'd point to the ~int directly, then
04:26:09 <ais523> I forgot you could do that
04:26:17 <kmc> «let x: ~int = ~3; f(&x);» that'll just pass a pointer to the stack
04:26:38 <kmc> yeah you can borrow stack vars and arguments as well as heap boxes
04:26:55 <kmc> lifthrasiir: right, but it would be the same operationally
04:27:04 <kmc> if ~int is the same operationally as int
04:27:30 <kmc> this also depends on the fact that rust generics are monomorphized
04:27:34 <lifthrasiir> I don't see a value in making ~int internally equivalent to int
04:27:49 <kmc> a generic function operating on ~T would have to produce different code for ~int and ~MyStruct
04:27:53 <kmc> but that's already what it does
04:28:05 <kmc> lifthrasiir: I don't see huge value either, but it would save an allocation
04:28:14 <kmc> if for some reason you were making lots of owned-boxed ints
04:28:18 <kmc> but I don't know why that would be the case
04:28:22 <kmc> maybe generic code
04:28:27 <Bike> oh, i thought "they talk about a world where" was more supposed to be a conceptual thing.
04:28:33 <lifthrasiir> AFAIK LLVM has some kind of malloc-to-reg passes
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04:30:34 <lifthrasiir> kmc, actually, non-primitive non-boxed types behaves almost identically to owned boxes (major difference being the memory layout, of course), so using <T:Send> type params instead of using an explicit owned box can solve that problem.
04:32:12 <Bike> "In sequential code it is possible to control the flow of the program using if-then-else statements and various forms of loops. Such flow control structures have only recently been added to GPUs" so, i'm starting to think the wikipedia article on gpgpu is actually stupid
04:33:36 <Bike> "A variety of data structures can be represented on the GPU: * Dense arrays * Sparse arrays * Adaptive structures [citation needed]"
04:33:44 <kmc> lifthrasiir: right
04:33:52 <lifthrasiir> A variety of data structures can be represented on the GPU: * Integers
04:33:59 <kmc> you're saying there's not much you can do on a generic ~T that you can't also do on a T:Send ?
04:34:04 <kmc> makes sense
04:34:09 <Bike> integers, single floats, the possibilities are limitless
04:34:13 <oklopol> it was not long ago that integers were not really a data type in gpus
04:34:27 <kmc> if it's good enough for javascript
04:34:32 <ais523> oklopol: doubles were only added recently, too
04:34:36 <lifthrasiir> * Integers that fit in IEEE 754 binary floating point types.
04:34:40 <ais523> although they always used to have at least slightly working ints to do array indexes
04:34:54 <Bike> lifthrasiir: apparently not all GPUs are ieee-conformant, just to punish me
04:35:23 <ais523> Bike: most of them used not to be
04:35:40 <Bike> yeah, probably subnormals
04:35:42 <ais523> they started adding IEEE conformance only recently, for people who wanted to do scientific computations on them
04:36:04 <Bike> i'm seeing about the realism of my getting a GPU for games and also for work
04:36:05 <lifthrasiir> Java bytecode had something like strictfp, I think
04:36:34 <oklopol> what cha gonna do with one
04:36:49 <ais523> lifthrasiir: strictfp is actually a keyword in Java
04:37:13 <Bike> nothing all that interesting >_> simulations at lab take time to run, they'd take less time if i got 'em running on something good
04:37:30 <Bike> probably would take some work to really parallelize it well though
04:37:52 <Bike> right now it just runs different sims on different cores, which helps but is boring
04:38:32 <Bike> what does that mean
04:39:02 <oklopol> synonyms for labbing oh god you be testing my englishability.
04:39:14 <Bike> yes. you pass. now what the fuck are you saying
04:39:14 <oklopol> what are you simulating at the lab
04:40:06 <oklopol> how do you put real muscles into a gpu
04:40:21 <kmc> UNCLE MUSCLES
04:40:25 <kmc> MUSCLES FOR BONES
04:40:27 <Bike> I'm thinking it might be possible to do the computations across space in parallel
04:40:31 <kmc> CASH FOR BONES
04:40:58 <Bike> honestly my main motivation is that i want to fuck around but that's how it always is
04:41:01 <coppro> kmc: NETHACK.ALT.ORG HAS BONES
04:41:36 <oklopol> are these your own muscles or like walrus muscles or what and how do you preserve them
04:42:06 <oklopol> or are they virtual muscles which are real in the sense that they are real if you believe in them really really hard
04:42:15 <Bike> some human muscles from football players who fucked up their feet, some fly muscles from catching flies and dissecting them, some rabbit muscles from killing rabbits
04:42:25 <Bike> the flies are killed too*
04:43:09 <oklopol> what does it look like when they flex
04:43:54 <oklopol> anyway yeah gpus are awesome you should do everything with them
04:44:17 <oklopol> i once almost did something with them other than shading stuff but then i ended up not doing it but just daydreaming about how cool it would be to do it
04:48:06 <Bike> but basically science code is fucking terrible and rewriting it to be not terrible is fun and involves lots of cool optimization opportunities like "lexical scope"
04:48:07 <quintopia> oklopol: what was the thing you daydreamed
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04:48:38 <oklopol> quintopia: cellular automata stuff
04:49:34 <Bike> could be cool though.
04:49:40 <oklopol> because there are no programs out there for implementing CA
04:49:42 <kmc> lexical scope is p. great
04:49:43 <Bike> all i'm doing is linear algebra. Like, Who Cares, Man
04:50:19 <Bike> oklopol: What would you do that Golly can't handle? (not a challenge or anything it sounds supa cool)
04:50:38 <oklopol> you have to list the rule manually
04:50:54 <Bike> gonna be honest i've only used golly because it makes pretty pictures
04:50:59 <Bike> but i mean, it does hashlife and all.
04:51:05 <oklopol> if you have more than 8 states it takes forever to write up a rule
04:51:13 <oklopol> and usually CA have hundreds of thousands of states
04:51:34 <oklopol> usually in the sense that i have some specific ones i'd like to see implemented
04:51:40 <Bike> the most complex CA i know is von neumann's. i'm a dabbla, see
04:51:54 <oklopol> the 29 state constructor thing maybe
04:51:59 <Bike> yeah, that one.
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04:54:24 <oklopol> basically my only concrete new idea is to do (n+1)-dimensional SFTs instead of n-dimensional CA, the rest is hype
04:54:42 <Bike> i don't know that initialism.
04:54:52 <oklopol> subshift of finite type, like wang tiles
04:55:08 <Bike> i don't really know that concept either but i know wang at least.
04:55:36 <oklopol> so basically you would just draw signals and stuff, and it would say "this is downward deterministic, would you like to make it a CA"
04:55:56 <oklopol> well wang tiles are squares with colors on their left, top, right, bottom sides
04:56:05 <oklopol> and you fill Z^2 with them so that colors match
04:56:22 <Bike> right, and that's uncomputable and whatnot.
04:56:39 <oklopol> whether or not Z^2 can indeed be filled is undecidable, yes
04:57:21 <oklopol> anyway, this is the same thing as a cellular automaton on a one-dimensional SFT, restricted to its limit set
04:58:02 <oklopol> where a one-dimensional SFT includes the full shift S^Z CA are usually run on, and basically just means wang tiles with only left/right colors
04:58:25 <oklopol> and limit set is the set of configurations with an infinite chain of preimages
04:58:42 <Bike> so like dynamics.
04:58:59 <Bike> well, not like dynamics.
04:59:43 <oklopol> one-dimensional SFTs are dynamical systems with the shift maps giving an action of Z
05:00:13 <oklopol> two-dimensional SFTs are dynamical systems with an obvious Z^2 action
05:00:39 <oklopol> cellular automata are dynamical systems with an N-action given by repeating it
05:00:44 <oklopol> or Z if the CA is reversible
05:02:51 <oklopol> (an action of a group G on a space X means a homomorphism from G to the group of continuous homeomorphism from X to itself)
05:03:21 <oklopol> (sorry i didn't know what dynamics means so i guess i did a dictionary look up or something)
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05:32:49 <Sgeo> "If you had asked me whether or not it was possible to get a 2x speedup for my LazySorted project by adding a single line of code, I would have told you "No way, substantial speedups can really only come from algorithm changes.""
05:33:29 <ais523> reddit commenters pointed out that the line in question is incorrect, it can read out of bounds while trying to calculate the address to prefetch
05:33:30 <Sgeo> I guess every algorithm change affects multiple lines of code, according to this person?
05:33:43 <ais523> prefetching's safe if the address to fetch isn't valid, but not if something goes wrong calculating it
05:33:51 <ais523> Sgeo: memoize('function_to_memoize');
05:34:22 <Sgeo> ais523: I was thinking about work, and how I'm about to do what is essentially a major algorithm change in two li.. actually, hmm, it's more than two lines of code
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05:34:55 <Sgeo> ais523: nice example
05:35:24 <Bike> oklopol: luckily i don't know anything.
05:35:32 <Sgeo> I was thinking of (besides work), some language where the functions you use on data structures are overloaded, but one line can determine whether you're working with a linked-list or a vector
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05:45:12 <oklopol> 2x speedup is not that substantial
05:45:30 <oklopol> algorithm changes usually get you tends-to-infinity-x speedup
05:45:49 <Bike> https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/banner_slideshow/akamai/cuda/images/banners/GeoINT_Defense_700x240_static.jpg nvidia promises me vast fields of geoint, and also jpeg artifacts
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06:08:36 <Bike> i found a neat whitepaper on this stuff. apparently instead of fp control stuff every instruction just has rounding modes and stuff encoded. (attn fiora i need your help)
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07:20:21 <fizzie> AMD's new APU, "Kaveri", means (approximately) "a friend, a pal" in Finnish.
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10:30:35 <oerjan> you know spammers are making you nervous when you google the nick of new registrations
10:31:47 <fizzie> I just got an SMS that my mobile number had won £2.5M and I just need to email some random-looking gmail address to claim it.
10:31:56 <fizzie> My ~first SMS spam, I think.
10:31:58 <ais523_> that sounds like spam to me
10:32:29 <fizzie> (Well, "just"; it came at around 05am and woke me up.)
10:36:09 <fizzie> I... haven't measured.
10:41:46 <oklopol> fizzie: i got my first just a few weeks ago too
10:44:11 <ais523_> don't they have to pay to send SMS in Europe?
10:44:16 <ais523_> that must be some expensive spamming
10:44:54 <oerjan> presumably they found a loophole to that
10:45:36 <ais523_> in the US, SMS is recipient-pays, for some bizarre historical reason
10:45:46 <ais523_> which at least means SMS spamming is really cracked down on
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10:48:23 <oklopol> so if your number gets known by someone random, they can make you pay as much as they like?
10:50:35 <oklopol> in finland, it's relatively easy to move anyone whose name you know, you just call the authorities and say you've moved, and they update your address
10:50:57 <oklopol> sometimes they ask where you were born or something, but for example i don't remember and it was fine
10:51:13 <lexande> a few prepaid customers in the US pay for each SMS they receive but it's much more common (even on prepaid) to have some "unlimited SMS" package
10:51:31 <ais523_> ah right, that would make sense
10:51:37 <ais523_> it's still recipient pays, but they buy in bulk
10:51:49 <ais523_> it's the same for sending in the UK
10:52:31 <lexande> and the risk of spam is one of several factors that pushes people towards such packages
10:54:21 <lexande> i never actually send/receive SMS through my carrier anyway though, because i use google voice for that which uses my data connection
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11:02:16 <fizzie> oklopol: I think mine was the same.
11:05:36 <fizzie> (I remember there being a news article about this particular scam few weeks back.)
11:20:16 <oerjan> ahhh they seem to have fixed that annoying windows 8.1 spellchecking bug
11:20:37 <oerjan> (that is, you couldn't turn it off)
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11:35:10 <oerjan> hm, Timwi is learning haskell.
11:38:19 <Taneb> oerjan, I hope his learning experience goes better than mine did
11:38:43 <Taneb> At first I was programming Haskell as though it was Python
11:38:49 -!- Tefaj has changed nick to Jafet.
11:38:51 <Taneb> Now I code Python as though it were Haskell
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11:39:04 <fizzie> Partying like it's 1991, and coding Haskell like it's Python.
11:39:26 <oerjan> coding 1991 haskell like it's 1991 python?
11:39:28 <Taneb> fact n = reduce(lambda x, y: x * y, range(1,n+1))
11:39:49 <fizzie> I'm slightly surprised xkcd hasn't done "party(ing) like it's ____" plot yet. (Or if so, I don't remember it.)
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11:41:57 <Taneb> (note: for python < 3, using xrange may be better than range)
11:42:19 <fizzie> "total error: NaN" I don't know if that's a good thing or not.
11:42:27 <Taneb> (and actually, reduce isn't in Python 3?)
11:43:14 <fizzie> That certainly sounds like programming Haskell. "What, it's not in this version?"
11:43:37 <fizzie> from functools import reduce, perhaps.
11:44:43 <Taneb> Aaah, that's where it ended up
11:48:50 <fizzie> from HaskellPretenders import foldl, foldr
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11:59:02 <Taneb> I liked today's XKCD
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12:00:24 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it has an actual joke
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12:00:42 <Taneb> It's a good start and I want to encourage them
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12:01:44 <Taneb> I take jokes where they come!
12:02:59 <Taneb> There did not seem to be one in today's Gunnerkrigg Court, but that's okay because Gunnerkrigg Court is much more story-based than xkcd
12:03:45 <Taneb> And Freefall is on hiatus this week
12:04:09 <Taneb> Family medical emergency, apparently
12:04:18 <Taneb> "Due to family medical problems (not mine, but still requires my attention), Freefall will be on Hiatus for a week. Sorry about that everyone."
12:06:30 <oerjan> i think this is the first day i've managed not to check anyhow.
12:06:54 <fizzie> I just spent like 15 minutes clustering a matrix full of zeros.
12:07:02 <fizzie> Some sanity checks might've been nice.
12:07:22 <fizzie> (There was a typo in the code loading files, it was assigning to a whole another matrix.)
12:07:23 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
12:07:52 <Taneb> oerjan, I check Freefall daily for no good reason
12:09:12 <oerjan> ok i meant "daily when it usually updates"
12:12:08 <oerjan> Taneb: also, discworldproblems? how many r/*problems subreddits _are_ there these days?
12:13:56 <Taneb> a) why are you redditstalking me? and b) I have no idea. At least 4
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12:14:42 <oerjan> because you're on my friends list hth
12:15:15 <Phantom_Hoover> this would be the creepy friends list that requires no confirmation or even notification of the 'friend'
12:15:26 <oerjan> yep. you're on it too btw
12:15:39 <Taneb> Okay, to be fair you're on mine, oerjan
12:16:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i cannot be held responsible for reddit's poor choice of terminology.
12:16:22 <Taneb> That's a shame, you're my friend
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13:15:55 <boily> @tell oerjan good ørjanight!
13:22:01 <boily> (or is it “tanellob”? I can never seem to conjugate your name properly.)
13:24:21 <Taneb> Well, I think this would be the vocative
13:24:56 <Taneb> And "Taneb"'s a name, so I think you'd decline it rather than conjugate it
13:43:30 <boily> meanwhile, 1614 pages and still going strong. really, people flock over the pointlessest things these days...
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15:05:00 <boily> mrhmouse: irregular check up on the OTT in the xkcd forums.
15:09:36 <boily> the One True Thread, cf. xkcd 1190 “Time”.
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15:32:15 <Taneb> I just got feedback on a programming formative assessment
15:32:55 <Taneb> My lecturer said that it was good, but I should take my time a bit, put more useful comments in, and more line breaks, and also re-read the question
15:33:03 <Taneb> And also put in tests
15:33:15 <kmc> what did you mis-read in the question?
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15:34:22 <mrhmouse> Actually I wish more people would learn those other points (comments, line breaks, write tests first, and slow down)
15:34:33 <Taneb> kmc: one of the tasks was to write a script that takes a sentence and prints the total number of words and the average number of characters per word
15:34:58 <ion> http://youtu.be/CDVQvme5tb0
15:34:58 <Taneb> I wrote a function that just returned the average number of characters per word
15:35:20 <kmc> "useful" comments is key... when you tell students to write lots of comments you get code like "int x = 3; // Declare an integer variable named x and set its initial value to 3"
15:35:37 <mrhmouse> kmc: and then they take that habit into the workplace...
15:36:24 <mrhmouse> kmc: also useful names! far too often do I see things like this: "int intX = 3; // set intX to 3"
15:36:34 <Taneb> kmc: my only comment was along the lines of "I like this function"
15:37:01 <Taneb> (although it may have actually been a method, I'm not sure)
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15:37:19 <trout> kmc: mrhmouse: theil eventually learn
15:37:28 <trout> I don't mind stupid overcommenting from new coders
15:37:30 <kmc> mrhmouse: the best kind of type system is one where you write the types every time and also you don't get any static checking... i'm pretty sure there's no better kind of type system
15:38:05 <Taneb> Also I did something in three lines that I could have done in one
15:38:40 <kmc> trout: well it's not so bad when the good kinds of comments are also present, yeah
15:39:01 <kmc> the ones that explain 'how' and 'why' rather than the 'what' which is already part of the code
15:39:37 <Taneb> kmc: yeah, my lecturer specifically asked about the "why" in one case
15:39:48 <kmc> but if the dictate is "lots of comments" you won't bother with those kind because they're harder to write and there will be few of them anyway
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15:40:54 <Taneb> I had done something that was less efficient than the quickest thing matching specification but slightly more general
15:41:00 <mrhmouse> trout: I have coworkers who still do that, so I don't believe they ever learn
15:41:25 <kmc> I kinda like codebases where most code has no comments but occasionally there's a 4 paragraph comment explaining some tricky shit
15:41:32 <kmc> people will payattention :)
15:41:38 <mrhmouse> personally, I prefer static typing with type inference (a la D or Cobra)
15:41:52 <mrhmouse> kmc: I rarely comment at all, actually, except for the documentation comments
15:42:06 <mrhmouse> but that's because I rarely have a method that's more than five lines long.
15:46:21 <boily> I comment tricky, unusual, surprising or implicit stuff. I comment exceptions, and reasons I throw them. I comment expectations, workflow, and how you should manage resources' lifecycles.
15:47:45 <mrhmouse> Most of that I stick in documentation comments. For exceptions, I don't use comments (I just give a detailed exception message). I don't comment expectations or garauntees - those are done in the specifications and contracts.
15:48:39 <mrhmouse> Workflow is only documented if it's unexpected or unclear, and often I'll just reference what approach I'm taking ("this is the visitor pattern", etc) and why
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15:50:02 <Taneb> I... can't actually remember what grade I was given
15:50:17 <Taneb> I think it was a first with room for improvement
15:50:34 <Taneb> He said "Try to beat last year's best, which was 96%"
15:50:48 <mrhmouse> There's always room for improvement, no matter how good the code looks or how experienced the coder :)
15:51:46 <Taneb> No, the 96% is my target, not my mark
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16:21:29 <boily> mrhmouse: in a programming language that integrates those fancy features, of course comments become redundant.
16:22:06 <boily> (ô, how I wish Python had static typing)
16:24:24 * impomatic just wrote to Knuth to ask if he ever played Core War! :-)
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16:25:09 <mrhmouse> boily: Python is a dynamic language mate; you're asking to make an apple an orange ;)
16:25:45 <boily> mrhmouse: nothing less. besides, oranges taste good.
16:25:47 <mrhmouse> And for languages that don't integrate those "fancy features" (I'm guessing you mean contracts), I use a library that allows me to use them
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16:26:05 <mrhmouse> For example, with C# at work, we use SpecFlow. At home with CoffeeScript, I use Vows
16:26:34 <mrhmouse> It's a bit annoying to separate the specifications from the code, but it's better than nothing.
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16:29:05 <mrhmouse> ruddy is written in CoffeeScript... I really should have written tests for him :P
16:31:14 <Taneb> ruddy, have you met fungot?
16:31:14 <fungot> Taneb: http://www.flame.org/jivera/ random/ fnord ( sic)
16:31:31 * kmc tries to set up ruddy and fungot on a date
16:31:31 <fungot> kmc: silicon castles http://www.cowlark.com/ fnord libcurl: http error ( 404?)
16:31:43 <mrhmouse> ruddy doesn't respond to /me yet.. need to fix that
16:33:18 <FireFly> ruddy: why don't you respond? :(
16:33:33 <mrhmouse> If ruddy can't figure out a suitable response, he just stays silent
16:33:33 <ruddy> I wouldn't know. I never underwent one.
16:33:54 <FireFly> ruddy: you never underwent what?
16:33:55 <ruddy> my spirit animal is a horsey
16:34:28 <mrhmouse> pretty sure ruddy's spirit animal is fungot
16:34:29 <fungot> mrhmouse: aren't fnord those funny fnord tiny pachyderms that live on a small bf interpreter ( without very much bf fnord). it's not related to " normal"
16:34:57 <boily> kmc: some people here tried matchmaking ruddy and fungot, with no avail.
16:34:57 <fungot> boily: it is often confusing for new u-'
16:35:25 <mrhmouse> Yeah, you'd have to get fungot to say its name for that to even have a chance.
16:35:25 <fungot> mrhmouse: even solaris would be better to specify it on each function call
16:35:26 <boily> confusing bot on bot action in the early morning? oooooh :D
16:35:48 <mrhmouse> And even then, ruddy would have to pick a response that included a name placeholder.
16:35:48 <ruddy> but produces a function on-the-fly at startup. sorry, this is tedious. http://62.167.150.30/ acm100.c of
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16:39:06 <FireFly> fungot: tiny pachyderms living on small bf interpreters..?
16:39:06 <fungot> FireFly: i wanted to make it work in msg? i don't
16:39:11 <Taneb> ^echo ruddy hi how are you?
16:39:11 <fungot> ruddy hi how are you? ruddy hi how are you?
16:39:11 <ruddy> ohnoi'mfallingover!
16:39:12 <ruddy> your IP is showing
16:39:25 <Taneb> ruddy is quite rude
16:39:25 <ruddy> ok, I guess I should have played the game in order to understand what is going on.
16:39:36 <ruddy> I think the right word may have been aesthetic
16:40:01 <FireFly> That's certainly.. aesthetically pleasing
16:40:49 <boily> and unless a fungottian bot, he actually balances his brackets.
16:40:49 <fungot> boily: i just clicked through links." :) is it possible make it print 10 first in a series of
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17:01:05 <mrhmouse> yeah, ruddy is just an echo bot.
17:01:06 <ruddy> they started adding IEEE conformance only recently, for people who wanted to do scientific computations on them
17:01:33 <mrhmouse> I intend to have it understand a subset of English at some point, so that it can munge messages together
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17:33:20 <fizzie> boily: Won't you stop with the balanced parentheses already what kind of balanced paren fascist pig you are aaagagagaga
17:35:59 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti.*|metasepia|jconn)!
17:36:08 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti.*|metasepia|jconn|ruddy)!
17:36:08 <ruddy> ^(Frooxius|conehead|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|ruddy|oonbotti.*|fizzie|jconn)!
17:36:35 <fizzie> For the record, you can get fungot to say anything you want, with ^bf/^ul(/^str).
17:36:36 <fungot> fizzie: you wouldn't get much out of multi-processor boards. especially on machines with finite memorys of... a python love story looks rather like she of the magic compiler chip.
17:37:10 <fizzie> (I don't remember a Frooxius or a conehead at all.)
17:37:58 <mrhmouse> ruddy is just replacing names at random, and he stole your (fizzie) "response" to fungot
17:37:59 <fungot> mrhmouse: i understand the way kawa works. the second book, soo...... you are going to support it
17:38:14 <fizzie> Oh, there's some mungling in there already.
17:38:42 <mrhmouse> Yes, it replaces names with the currently active users to maintain an appearance of conversation
17:39:11 <mrhmouse> In most cases there are only one or two names to replace, but you gave it a huge list to use with that line to fungot
17:39:11 <fungot> mrhmouse: like, the first thing you notice is that emacs and the shell
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17:41:59 * FireFly hands conehead some botsnack
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18:22:50 <ion> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=195142868
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18:34:38 <mrhmouse> What are you playing on, Imax?!
18:38:34 <Bike> gee, with a resolution to size ratio the same as my netbook, that would be ten million cm across
18:39:12 <Bike> some asus crap i got a year ago
18:39:46 <myname> i have a sony vaio p and i am looking for some kind of successor, but i didn't find one yet
18:39:56 <Bike> i mostly got the cheapest one i could find
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18:44:15 <Bike> looks like imax is 10000×7000, so
18:44:27 <boily> back from lunch and fizzie aaagagagagas me.
18:45:11 <Bike> yeah. source: random crap on wikipedia i might be misinterpreting
18:49:17 <int-e> hello, math ... "Most IMAX theatres use two 4000x2000 reolution projectors to produce an 8000x4000 resolution image."
18:50:21 <mrhmouse> wait, are the projectors overlapping at all?
18:51:44 <int-e> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091101105136AAbmCcJ
18:51:56 <int-e> another random internet page
18:52:13 <myname> well, i don't expect anything good from yahoo anwers
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18:54:00 <boily> my most favouritest answer is the first one on http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags
18:54:18 <HackEgo> hello hello hello, what's all this then?
18:55:06 <int-e> more funny numbers ... http://www.celco.com/FormatResolutionTable4K.asp
18:55:57 <Bike> well, that's everyone's favorite, boily.
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18:56:42 <myname> "bla bla random rant about regular languages"
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18:57:09 <boily> myname: you are not everyone, then.
18:59:04 <boily> boerjan après-midi.
19:00:08 <boily> oerjan: inessive???
19:02:35 <oerjan> wait, no ´ in superlative, sorry
19:02:54 <boily> the boilyest evening? well, I'm flattered.
19:03:03 <boily> also, you're learning hungarian? that's neat.
19:03:24 <oerjan> no, i picked up a little years ago
19:03:40 <FireFly> How many languages do you know anyway?
19:04:02 <boily> define "language"?
19:04:33 <Bike> fizzie: is a set datastructure that just has 'add an element' and membership testing going to be something i can get out of matlab or do i have to do it myself somehow
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19:05:42 <oerjan> i'd consider myself fluent in english, norwegian, and by extension near-fluent in swedish and danish. i can probably get by in german with some effort. everything else is on a lower level, including the french i've actually had lessons in.
19:06:33 <oerjan> (it's been a long time since i sincerely tried getting by in german, though.)
19:09:13 <oerjan> now if you want what i've dabbled through a few grammar or textbook chapters in, you've got italian, latin, czech and hungarian. and esperanto.
19:10:16 <boily> no quenya nor any sindarin at all?
19:10:40 <Bike> loooks like the matlab cas (why does matlab have a cas) has sets, but they let you do weird optionsn like "indexing"...
19:11:14 <oerjan> boily: i don't remember any of their grammar to speak of, although i _do_ recall visiting the aldalambion web page.
19:12:25 -!- asie has joined.
19:13:01 <boily> when one visits ardalambion, one remembers the backgrounds.
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19:17:30 <olsner> hmm, doesn't seem like a very memorable background
19:18:35 <olsner> and in retrospect, maybe I shouldn't have cleaned up whatever it was that held my mouse pad stuck to the desk
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19:26:36 <fizzie> Bike: In a modern-enough MATLAB (I don't know details), you can use http://www.mathworks.se/help/matlab/map-containers.html
19:26:43 <boily> olsner: backgrounds, in the pluralo-chromatic sense of the term. view the pages. bask in the colours.
19:27:00 <fizzie> Bike: There's also a longstanding tradition of using structs as impromptu hashmaps (and hashsets), but that comes with some rather bad gotchas related to field name restrictions and so on.
19:27:26 <fizzie> Bike: (And of course only works for string keys, unlike containers.Map. (Also, it's slower.))
19:27:46 <Bike> i think i might just use a bitvector, this should probably be parallizable in the future anyway
19:27:58 <fizzie> (Last fact not guaranteed to be true.)
19:28:08 <Bike> speed is what i was going for, right now the "set" is a vector and an element is added with vec(end+1) = element
19:28:19 <Bike> which like...you know.
19:29:26 <Bike> it's only used as a set.
19:29:29 <fizzie> I think a containers.Map (with just 'true's as values) might not be too bad. (Or, of course, some sort of bitvector if the keys have a feasible range for that.)
19:29:38 <Bike> adding an element and finding if something is in it are the only things done with it.
19:29:49 <Bike> yeah, i'll have to check the range but i think it should be fine
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19:33:22 <fizzie> The Map is probably the fastest built-in way for generic hashmaps, and I believe was quite the welcomed addition, thanks to the "struct hack" (no relation to C's struct hack) being so horrible.
19:33:32 <fizzie> Apparently it's a 2008b feature.
19:33:38 <Bike> i'm on 2009b, i think
19:33:56 <Bike> i think i'm going to make a hacky tool i can use to run the program and get a graphed distribution of the values of some variable
19:34:12 <fizzie> That's not terribly new. But not as bad as, say, 7.x would be.
19:35:01 <fizzie> I guess theoretically R2009b is still also a 7.x. But I mean something like R14.
19:35:05 <quintopia> Bike: that's the one i have. because that's the year i stole it :P
19:35:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure what's the deal with the version/release dichotomy.
19:35:56 <Bike> i just want it to work, man, no time 4 thinking
19:37:13 <fizzie> It goes 6.0 - R12, 6.1 - R12.1, 6.5 - R13, 7 - R14, 7.1 - R14SP3, then 7.2, 7.3, ..., 7.14 are R2006a, R2006b, ..., R2012a, and then 8, 8.1 and 8.2 are the newest R2012b, R2013a and R2013b.
19:37:56 <boily> quintopia: who? what? when?
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19:39:00 <boily> eating gummy bears as a mean to not fall asleep during a SCRUM training.
19:40:36 <mrhmouse> scrum is so irritating.. In concept, it sounds great. Once or twice a week, it would be great
19:40:51 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/IYPd look at all that MATLAB
19:41:07 <mrhmouse> but every single morning.. it's just an interruption where the whole team nods and says "yep, I'm still working on that thing from yesterday"
19:41:50 <boily> mrhmouse: come working for us, then! you'd feel right at home.
19:42:15 <Bike> fizzie: well now i feel better about my work setup.
19:43:10 <boily> mrhmouse: I am at canada.
19:43:40 <mrhmouse> I suppose I could get there via ICBM
19:43:50 <boily> @tell zzo38 I owe you some royalties for the “at canada” brand.
19:44:17 <boily> mrhmouse: Québec is lovely this time of the year! it's very warm here!
19:44:22 <metasepia> CYUL 151900Z 23016G23KT 30SM FEW070 BKN080 BKN240 10/M01 A3003 RMK AC2AC4CI1 CI TR SLP171
19:44:44 <fizzie> Bike: That's just one of them. In another, I have to say (e.g.) "module load matlab/r2013a", and in yet another there's just the three latest in the path.
19:44:56 <mrhmouse> I'm from the south-eastern US.. I think I would freeze to death in a Canadian heat wave
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20:04:59 <quintopia> btw "g major" is the best youtube meme in a while
20:05:54 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:08:20 <boily> quintopia: an Agile Programming Method. slightly less bullshitty than the other methods.
20:09:37 <quintopia> take a music video, spectrally filter all frequencies not in the key of g major, reverse the video, publish to youtube
20:09:53 <quintopia> here i the most terrifying one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45lB-fyB87Y
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20:10:51 <boily> I can't watch it now. it'll have to wait, but I think I'll be properly terrified tonight by that grotesque thing.
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20:25:37 <mrhmouse> boily: the key word in "slightly less bullshitty" is "slightly"
20:26:15 <boily> mrhmouse: it is physically non-null.
20:31:19 <boily> “it”, meaning the difference.
20:31:39 <boily> I may have subtly left out some important context. my brain is not in functioning order at the moment.
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20:45:16 * boily drinks tea. delicious tea. it tastes good.
20:45:38 <quintopia> boily: find me some delicious tea that tastes bad
20:46:16 <boily> no. some unknown oolong sold to me by an enthusiastic guy in Montréal's Chinatown.
20:46:40 <oerjan> try passing it through a civet
20:47:30 <boily> once every 2 months, I'd say. last time I blew up about 70$ on multiple teas.
20:47:38 <boily> oerjan: cha luwak?
20:48:49 <oerjan> boily: i don't think that "up" belongs there, unless you have a youtube link to prove it.
20:49:33 <boily> oerjan: don't destroy my dreamy explosions.
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21:20:45 <mrhmouse> I think the biggest shock for me when I moved to "the big city" was the tea
21:20:59 <mrhmouse> where I grew up we had two kinds of tea: sweet and unsweet
21:22:17 <FireFly> You're giving me flashbacks to when I put sugar in the tea..
21:23:02 <mrhmouse> putting sugar in tea after it's brewed just isn't the same as sweet tea
21:25:03 <boily> lately, I started brewing Hong-Kong style milk tea at home.
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21:42:39 <Taneb> How can I modify a transformation matrix so it treats a different point as the origin
21:43:19 <Taneb> I'm not thinking about this right, hang on
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22:03:41 <Taneb> Right, I have something with its own origin (x1, y1) and a transformation matrix applied to it assuming that origin, M
22:04:25 <Bike> wish i had my own origin
22:04:26 <Taneb> Then I have a secondary origin (x2, y2), and a transformation matrix applied around that origin, N
22:06:29 <Taneb> To begin with, (x1, y1) is gonna be transformed by N
22:09:57 <Taneb> I need some paper...
22:10:26 <fizzie> I don't quite understand what "transformation matrix applied around an origin" means, given that it's just a matrix. But you could certainly first translate point (x2, y2) to (x1, y1), apply your thing, and then translate (x1, y1) back to (x2, y2), if that's the sort of thing you had in mind.
22:10:34 <Slereah> Taneb : There are matrices you can use for translations
22:10:57 <Taneb> I need to get this clear in my own mind before I ask for help...
22:11:13 <Bike> fizzie: he probably means a rotation around that point or whatnot
22:11:42 <Slereah> Who knows, it could be a skew or a conformal transformation!
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22:12:36 <fizzie> Well, that'd just be T1 N T2, or so on.
22:15:29 <Slereah> You have to change your rotation matrix if you want to apply a translation
22:15:55 <Slereah> On a n dimensional vector, you need (n+1)x(n+1) translation matrices
22:16:11 <Slereah> And the vector becomes (x1, x2, x3, ..., xn, 1)
22:16:17 <fizzie> I was sort of assuming homogenous coordinates by default.
22:16:34 <Bike> also taneb pretyt much specified this is all on the plane.
22:16:48 <Slereah> Well in that case the translation matrix is 3x3
22:16:52 <Taneb> Yeah, it's on a plane
22:16:57 <Slereah> And the vector transforms to (x,y,1)
22:17:46 <fizzie> Quite often you see those as 2x3 matrices with an implicit [0 0 1] at the bottom.
22:18:43 <fizzie> (Like in the SVG "matrix(a b c d e f)" transform attribute.)
22:18:52 <oerjan> good to see you are doing affine without me
22:19:12 <fizzie> oerjan: It's affine day for it.
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23:01:46 <fizzie> http://vimeo.com/79179138 I'm sure this is old news, but it was the fanciest.
23:02:15 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:02:45 <fizzie> "3 days ago" so in Internet time that's like six generations.
23:09:20 <nooodl> fizzie: cool. i hadn't seen it!
23:13:08 <Taneb> (I'd seen pictures of that, but not the actual video)
23:13:35 <quintopia> so i finished my SELECT. interpreter. would someone like to test it? would someone like to host it so i can change the category to Implemented?
23:14:42 -!- nisstyre has joined.
23:15:02 <quintopia> but no guarantees i won't go stale
23:16:30 <fizzie> Can't you just put it into a gist or something?
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23:18:30 <Slereah> Why are there "standard libraries"
23:18:41 <Slereah> Why not make them part of the language if they are standard
23:18:55 <olsner> err, that's what standard library means?
23:19:16 <Slereah> Well no, you still need to call them up
23:19:26 <Slereah> And they are themselves written in the language itself
23:20:23 <Slereah> Sure, but in the case they are, let's say
23:20:38 <Slereah> I am wondering why not just make them part of the language itself
23:20:57 <FireFly> I'm not sure if I see the distinction
23:21:22 <quintopia> "utilities that people use a lot" doesn't necessarily mean "a bunch of extra code you definitely want linked into your app"
23:22:09 <Slereah> Well if it's part of the language it wouldn't be extra code technically
23:22:09 <fizzie> I think that's called "the PHP model", where everything in the "standard library" is available in your global namespace by default.
23:22:58 <fizzie> (The C standard library certainly is part of the language, FWIW.)
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23:23:33 <quintopia> fizzie: meaning it is all inside the compiler somewhere?
23:23:50 <quintopia> ready to be tacked on to code without having to import?
23:23:53 <fizzie> I don't think that's what "part of the language" means.
23:24:07 <quintopia> i don't know what Slereah means either
23:24:33 <quintopia> so the SELECT. interpreter is here: http://rutteric.com/files/select.py
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23:25:47 <FireFly> For small enough standard libraries, the "PHP model" makes sense, I think
23:26:03 <fizzie> For PHP, I'm not terribly sure it does.
23:27:38 <prooftechnique> What's "the PHP model"? Just pile stuff on whenever someone has an idea?
23:27:59 <fizzie> prooftechnique: <fizzie> I think that's called "the PHP model", where everything in the "standard library" is available in your global namespace by default.
23:28:27 <fizzie> Yes, I saw that, that's why I pasted it. It wasn't an accusation or anything.
23:28:47 <prooftechnique> I should get in the habit of checking the logs, though
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23:31:25 <FireFly> fizzie: PHP's isn't small though..
23:31:32 <FireFly> I was thinking more along the lines of Scheme or Lua
23:32:47 <Slereah> ...have you read your SICP today?
23:34:13 <fizzie> FireFly: R6RS and R7RS both have a module system. (Then again, they're larger.)
23:39:28 <fizzie> I'm finding this Windows 8(.1) thing of having "desktop" things and "apps" things very confusing. "Apps" don't show up in the task bar, but they do show up in the alt-tab list. And they have completely different interaction paradigm (that's the word, right?) that's almost like a tiling WM. E.g. to make the built-in PDF reader visible while having something else open on the same monitor, I had ...
23:39:34 <fizzie> ... to split the screen so that one half is the PDF viewer, and the other is a half-wide desktop. It looks very strange.
23:40:32 <olsner> a bit disappointing that they went and invented the whole new thing and then end up having to keep the old thing around anyway
23:40:59 <fizzie> I think the idea is that the old thing is just a single "app", but that's kind of ridiculous, because that's where just about everything is happening.
23:41:11 <fizzie> (So far the PDF reader is probably the only new thing I've used.)
23:41:11 <olsner> I guess the real reason is that the new thing is unusable
23:41:42 <fizzie> Also the corner-based navigation is kinda clunky with multiple screens.
23:41:59 <fizzie> There's stops at the corners, so it can be used, but it's still clunky.
23:43:14 <quintopia> the only think i truly enjoy about windows 8 is the app store
23:43:45 <quintopia> totally engineering the UI around touchscreens is just annoying to a diehard keyboardist like me
23:44:00 <fizzie> I can't figure out how to use the application switcher.
23:44:37 <fizzie> There's a top-left-corner thing, but it keeps switching just one half of the screen, and there's no list of what's running.
23:44:49 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some way, I just can't figure it out.
23:45:05 <fizzie> Possibly you're meant to swipe from somewhere, but I don't know how to do that with a mouse.
23:46:29 <fizzie> Ah, left-corner-move (but not click), and then move cursor down to the small rectangles that are poking out of the edge slide out a list.
23:46:30 <quintopia> you have a separate sits-on-your-desk mouse?
23:46:55 <fizzie> Um. Do most desktops not have one?
23:47:12 <fizzie> This is a regular computer I'm using.
23:47:15 <quintopia> most laptops have touchpads, and windows 8 was LAPTOP-ENGINEERED
23:47:37 <shachaf> Wasn't it TOUCHSCREEN-ENGINEERED?
23:47:42 <fizzie> I've got Windows 8.1 on the desktop, and Windows 7 on the laptop.
23:47:43 <shachaf> The world is all about touch these days.
23:50:20 <fizzie> "Touch one another!", like a Finnish TV personality from the early 90s used to say.
23:50:35 <quintopia> shachaf: which is why modern laptops have touchscreens
23:50:37 <fizzie> (That's kind of a bad translation of "Kosketelkaa toisianne!", arguably.)
23:51:10 <fizzie> (Guess it's still better than GT's "kosketelkaa each other".)
23:51:20 <quintopia> i assume he meant touch as in "touching" the adjective and not touch as in "fondle"?
23:52:06 <fizzie> It's very close to "fondle" in meaning, in fact.
23:52:24 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Pappa_Show but it's just a stub. The .fi article knows more, but is in Finnish.
23:53:19 <fizzie> [[ The program is remembered, among other things, -- Frank Papa fly the phrases "Kosketelkaa each other!", "Relentless go!" and "Bailatkaa severely". ]]
23:53:37 <oerjan> fizzie: perhaps "hug" is closer but with fewer unfortunate associations to americans?
23:54:01 <prooftechnique> Maybe the Finns are just a more tactile and accepting culture
23:54:25 <oerjan> prooftechnique: that seems like exactly the opposite of my stereotype of finns.
23:54:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Mmmmaybe, but "kosketella" really has some of those unfortunate associations in Finnish too. I think it's just a thing.
23:57:32 <oerjan> but maybe i've misunderstood, and finns are all about touching as long as you don't speak while doing it.
23:59:35 <olsner> and as long as you don't tell foreigners, stereotypes to uphold etc
23:59:37 <prooftechnique> You may only speak to whisper "we shall never speak of this"
00:00:07 <oerjan> arthur, you are an evil duck http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/131115.html
00:01:32 <fizzie> oerjan: As far as I know, the canonical stereotype involves no touching either. See http://depressingfinland.tumblr.com/post/65617168839/chibisuz-depressingfinland-234937289-bus
00:02:25 <fizzie> "it’s okay if you don’t pronounce it perfectly right because the only reason someone would talk to strangers in public transport is to ask them to move, so they will get the hint" very true
00:02:47 <olsner> you can't really mispronounce a grunt either
00:03:01 <oerjan> fizzie: what's a "standing up seat"
00:03:43 <fizzie> oerjan: A paradox. (I think a standing place was intended.)
00:03:56 <fizzie> We don't have seats you stand on in buses, no.
00:04:08 <oerjan> the rule in norway is similar but we do _not_ usually take standing places before starting to sit next to each other :P
00:04:21 <oerjan> well, some probably do, but it's not a rule.
00:05:04 <fizzie> Yes, well, I think maybe about half the people in here don't, either. (Could be more, could be less.) So it's not as strict rule as the no-talking one, or the others.
00:06:40 <fizzie> (Also depends on distance and such.)
00:07:05 <oerjan> mä jään tääs of course consists solely of the one finnish vowel i find awkward to pronounce.
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00:07:43 <oerjan> despite it being nominally in norwegian too
00:09:31 <fizzie> Älä rääkkää sitä kääkkää! En rääkkääkään.
00:09:57 <oerjan> i think my brain basically is prejudiced with "it's not in front of an r, use an "e" instead you idiot!"
00:10:43 <olsner> I'd consider it weird to stand on the bus if there are free seats even if they are no double free seats
00:11:10 <oerjan> quintopia: ä = [æ] afaik
00:11:49 <fizzie> I keep mentally hearing all the 'ä's in, say, LOTR (Eärendil) as the Finnish ä, which is so wrong.
00:13:34 <olsner> otoh it does avoid the difficult problem of deciding which person on the bus is least scary to sit next to
00:13:36 <oerjan> google cannot translate rääkkääkään, but still suggests it should be rääkkääkkään (which it cannot translate either)
00:14:09 <prooftechnique> Does it suggest rääkkääkkääkkään or rääkkääkään for rääkkääkkään?
00:14:44 <quintopia> oerjan: i cannot seem to tell the difference between æ and ɛ...there's just no reason to ever get that kind of find tongue control in english
00:15:07 <fizzie> "(enclitic, appended to a verb form) indicates confirmation of not doing something, e.g. if someone doubts it, or, when someone is more or less surprised at an occurrence, indicates the reason why some thing was not successful – which is by not doing that something
00:15:11 <fizzie> (Minä) en syönytkään eilen jäätelöä.
00:15:13 <fizzie> But I didn't eat ice-cream yesterday."
00:15:50 <fizzie> The "confirmation" one.
00:16:26 <oerjan> fizzie: it doesn't know rääkkää or kääkkää either.
00:17:04 <Taneb> Isn't that a pokemon
00:18:27 <fizzie> And kääkkä is... something like a pejorative term for an old person.
00:19:05 <fizzie> There's a proper English word for it, I'm sure.
00:19:22 <oerjan> i think that only applies to women
00:20:24 <fizzie> I guess kääkkä is gender-neutral, maybe slightly biased towards women.
00:20:42 <oerjan> also i think crone is sort of archaic?
00:21:43 <oerjan> which somehow needs "old" in front, i suspect
00:22:09 <shachaf> oerjan: are you thinking of "anacrone"?
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00:22:42 <fizzie> http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/crone includes "kääkkä" as the Finnish translation.
00:24:19 <oerjan> "As a stock character in fairy or folk tale, the hag shares characteristics with the crone, and the two words are sometimes used as if interchangeable."
00:24:59 <Taneb> Is there such thing as a true synonym?
00:25:20 <Taneb> A word that is perfectly interchangable for another?
00:25:20 <oerjan> "The word "crone" is a less common synonym for "old woman," and is more likely to appear in reference to traditional narratives than in contemporary everyday usage."
00:25:39 <oerjan> "Using the word "hag" to translate terms found in non-English (or non-modern English) is contentious, since use of the word is often associated with a misogynistic attitude."
00:25:56 <oerjan> i'd say hag seems more like what you are implying.
00:27:05 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you shout so much
00:27:37 <oerjan> BECAUSE YOU'RE ALL THE WAY ON ANOTHER CONTINENT
00:28:01 <olsner> AND POSSIBLY HARD OF HEARING
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00:31:41 <quintopia> Taneb: i can think of a few examples, i'm sure. for words that have lots of synonyms, sometimes there are several subsets which also have the same connotations
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00:32:42 <quintopia> for instance, i can't see any situation where ill-at-ease and uncomfortable aren't completely swappable
00:32:58 <Taneb> When you're talking about a sofa?
00:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> http://depressingfinland.tumblr.com/post/66945321786/i-love-your-blog-i-am-a-finnophile-it-all-came-about
00:33:15 <fizzie> What if your 'i' key is broken?
00:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i am not sure this person realises that we have a word for that in english also
00:34:01 <Taneb> "bloody freezing"?
00:34:03 <quintopia> Taneb: how about "delay" and "wait"?
00:34:16 <Bike> reallyfuckingcold
00:34:22 <Taneb> quintopia, you wouldn't delay for someone
00:34:52 <Taneb> Also you wouldn't want someone in a restaurant to delay on you
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00:35:36 <Taneb> And I see "wait" as having much friendlier connoctations
00:35:53 <fizzie> You wouldn't wait a delivery, I think. (Though you might wait for one that's been delayedf.)
00:36:13 <quintopia> but i think the noun forms are identical
00:37:47 <fizzie> A prop or strut supporting the weight or flooring above it.
00:37:49 <fizzie> The shores stayed upright during the earthquake."
00:38:24 <quintopia> Taneb: how about miasmic and miasmal
00:38:37 <fizzie> It is a p. tricky task T. has set.
00:39:00 <Taneb> quintopia, I imagine miasmic referring to a substance and miasmal as to an environment, but maybe that's just me
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00:39:41 <olsner> hmm, is pakkanen a specific word for "below 0"? afaik none of the swedish words for cold have any specific temperature ranges
00:40:00 <Taneb> quintopia, hmm, good one
00:40:22 <fizzie> olsner: It does mean "freezing".
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00:41:36 <olsner> "freezing" is also a generic word for being/feeling cold
00:42:58 <fizzie> olsner: Well, the sense of freezing that means a temperature where water freezes.
00:43:01 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | The most corum, clargoint chait you could ever loofefl your slance in. | Magnus!! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:43:43 <fizzie> It's not "pakkanen" if it's above zero, that's non-negotiable.
00:44:21 <quintopia> fizzie: what if you are at abnormally high pressures?
00:44:30 <oerjan> hm doesn't swedish have a word like "kuldegrader"
00:45:22 <fizzie> "Pakkassen puolella" and "pakkasasteita" are both also real expressions.
00:45:46 <fizzie> q.: I don't know, actually.
00:48:23 <fizzie> It doesn't change all that much, right? Not like the boiling point.
00:48:56 <fizzie> (Matter. Sigh. What's it good for, anyway?)
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00:51:20 <olsner> oerjan: hm, we do have "minus degrees" (which doesn't mean that it's considered cold) or possibly "degrees cold" (but sometimes +20 is "cold"...)
00:51:36 <olsner> but those are like phrases for pronouncing temperatures
00:51:50 <APott> Has anyone here ever built an interpreter? I have a few questions
00:52:17 <APott> Of a normal language, may be a bit off topic
00:53:27 <APott> I've built a basic one before but I'm working on one right now
00:53:42 <APott> I have always never really understood the best way to construct an AST
00:54:02 <APott> specifically how meta data should be stored, and the different node types are determined
00:54:11 <APott> or the most proper way
00:54:13 <Bike> sounds like a job for a parser generator
00:54:27 <APott> This is not what I want
00:54:38 <APott> I find handwriting fun and actually a bit simpler than writing a grammar
00:54:56 <APott> I know how to create an AST I just don't know the best methods for it
00:55:07 <Bike> i guess you hvae to write a few parsers in order to learn to hate doing it yourself.
00:55:40 <APott> So you can't answer my question? xD
00:56:12 <Bike> well, to specify an AST the usual way basically amounts to an algebraic data structure.
00:57:23 <Bike> like you might have Form = Conditional Form Form Form | Call Form Form | Lambda Symbol Form | Access Symbol for a simple lambda calculus with ifs.
00:57:59 <Bike> that means, form is either a "conditional" with three subforms (for the condition, the "then", and the "else"), a call with two subforms (the callee and the argument), a lambda, or a variable.
00:58:35 <Bike> and uh... that's basically it?
00:58:38 <APott> how would I store metd data though?
00:58:45 <Bike> What metadata?
00:58:49 <APott> Like names of things and stuff
00:58:58 <Bike> Names of things... and stuff.
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00:59:53 <APott> if I'm parsing a javascript variable definition or something: "var name;" in the node how/where would be the best place to store "name"?
01:00:27 <Bike> Then in this AST you have a syntax type like VarDecl [Symbol].
01:00:41 <APott> I feel like I'm missing something huge or frustrating you, or both.
01:01:35 <Bike> The whole point of this algebraic thing is you just have a struct definition for every type of syntactic construct, basically.
01:01:48 <quintopia> Symbol is where the symbol is stored
01:01:55 <Jafet> data Expr a = Bound Nat a | Lambda (Expr a) a | App (Expr a) (Expr a) a
01:01:59 <APott> I understand this, but what confused me is how to structure them for interpretation later on
01:02:41 <Bike> i don't think you understand this.
01:02:48 <APott> Mainly, how do I keep these types together in the tree structure. I have them all extend the root AST struct
01:03:02 <shachaf> Jafet: Pft, arbitrary Nats.
01:03:05 <APott> I know this, let me explain what I'im gertting aty
01:03:18 <Jafet> Whatever, ASTs are overrated.
01:03:32 <Jafet> @let eval = let e s@(_:'\\':v:'.':l)=let(x,')':t)=e$d l in(take 4 s++x++")",t);e('(':s)=let(x,t)=e s;(y,')':u)=e$d t in(a x y,u);e s=splitAt 1$d s;d=snd.span(==' ');a(_:'\\':v:_:l)s=let f x|x==v=s|1>0=[x]in fst.e$init l>>=f;a f x='(':f++" "++x++")" in e
01:03:37 <quintopia> so an expression might have subexpressions, which would eb its children in the AST
01:03:40 <Bike> get a job taneb
01:04:00 <Bike> god why do i confuse you
01:04:00 <APott> I don't even know what the hell that is
01:04:14 <Bike> jafet's thing is humorous if you're a goddamn nerd and we're not goddamn nerds here
01:04:26 <quintopia> the only things that are children of root are things that the start symbol could produce in the grammar
01:04:47 <APott> I haven't finished my explanation but yet I'm hearing obvious answers to questions not asked
01:05:26 <quintopia> okay. i'll give you a few minutes to narrow your question down
01:07:22 <APott> So I have a struct named AST. I have others for each language construct that extend this AST struct. Each struct has a property which determines what it represents. Each has an array for more AST structs, for the tree structure. Lets say I have a piece of data I need passed with a node, how do I do this?
01:07:53 <APott> That's quite specific to each rule/construct
01:08:18 <Bike> well, yeah, that's why the AST i laid out has some things with "Symbol" instead of just always more ASTs. you need a base case as it were.
01:08:20 <APott> Do I simply create a property in the struct for that rule?
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01:09:01 <APott> Ok after reading that I feel the answer to that was way to simple to even be asked
01:09:11 <APott> at least you knocked my head straight
01:12:49 <Bike> basically this amounts to a tagged union - in C you'd have an AST struct with two fields, the tag and the actual object. the actual object is a union over all the syntactic types, and the tag just says which syntactic type this AST is.
01:17:30 <APott> Would you guys like an alligator?
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01:24:53 <oerjan> like these? http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/
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01:27:35 <kmc> ~metar RKSI
01:29:50 <augur_> i dont know if these a convention for doing the picture of the dude, so ill just count to 6
01:32:03 <augur_> prooftechnique: you watch QI :(
01:32:39 <augur_> prooftechnique: ok lets go again
01:33:50 <augur_> _ _ _ _ (2 wrong: i j)
01:34:12 <augur_> _ _ _ _ (3 wrong: e i j)
01:34:35 <augur_> _ _ _ _ (4 wrong: e f i j)
01:35:11 <augur_> _ _ _ _ (5 wrong: a e f i j)
01:35:52 <quintopia> hangman isn't fair with short words
01:36:01 <augur_> _ _ _ _ (6 wrong: a e f i j q)
01:36:16 <quintopia> also you should add a prog to hackego to do what you're doing :P
01:36:37 <augur_> prooftechnique: you didnt watch that episode of QI sufficiently :X
01:37:25 <zzo38> I never draw the picture in hangman; I always just count how many more tries you have
01:38:22 <quintopia> because that way you can give extra tries without making it obvious you're doing so with kids
01:39:05 <zzo38> I don't like that; I always want everyone to know exactly how many tries you have left. No cheating by giving extra tries!!!
01:39:49 <zzo38> Some hangman games set how many tries by the length of the word or phrase. Famicom Hangman does this too (a program I have written).
01:40:19 <zzo38> I do not like using the picture since it makes it unclear so it just makes a box containing the wrong letters and once it is fill up, then you lose.
01:40:20 <Bike> what's the point of hangman where you aren't murdering a stick figure
01:40:41 <APott> I agree with that statement
01:41:11 <zzo38> Bike: To guess the word. Of course you can draw the stick figure if you prefer but I prefer to not do so since it makes it less clear how many tries you have left.
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01:43:09 <APott> +you're right because there is a variable amount of body parts you could count
01:43:15 <APott> down to the eye lashes
01:43:37 <APott> to your individual hairs
01:44:30 <lambdabot> boily said 6h 39s ago: I owe you some royalties for the “at canada” brand.
01:45:00 <prooftechnique> "I have shown, by ingenious induction on the structure of man, that in fact I have (n+1) tries in hangman. QED, nyah nyah nyah"
01:45:11 <zzo38> boily: I do not accept royalties for such brand.
01:48:30 <oerjan> prooftechnique: famous last words
01:51:16 <quintopia> zzo38: do shorter words get you more tries than longer words?
01:52:33 <prooftechnique> quintopia: I wonder if shorter people get you fewer guesses
01:59:15 <APott> So I have a programming question
01:59:48 <oerjan> prooftechnique: seen it way back, possibly linked in r/haskell
02:00:10 <APott> Lets say in the source i'm analyzing there is a number that I need to perform mathematical operations with. How do I get the integer value of a string?
02:00:34 <Bike> most standard libraries have a function for that
02:00:47 <Bike> c has atoi, that sorta thing
02:01:09 <oerjan> !c printf("%d",atoi("42"));
02:01:20 <oerjan> `interp c printf("%d",atoi("42"));
02:01:24 <APott> D has the same sort of functions in it's library
02:01:38 <HackEgo> Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: for
02:01:50 <oerjan> Gregor: YOUR BOT IS ILL
02:02:02 <APott> Do i store this and perform operations with the float type for most accuracy? (some of this I stilld on't understand)
02:02:25 <APott> like "float num = atoi("42");"
02:03:05 <APott> anything could be several decimals long
02:03:07 <oerjan> double has double accuracy to float
02:03:51 <oerjan> although neither will give you exact arithmetic for huge integers.
02:04:04 <elliott> oerjan: `interp c does that
02:04:06 <APott> but it should be sufficient for my simple project
02:04:23 <oerjan> elliott: what, always? i thought it worked...
02:04:25 <APott> well thanks for that
02:04:32 <oerjan> `interp c printf("hm");
02:04:48 <Bike> holy cheese a new haswell costs $339
02:04:50 <HackEgo> Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: for
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02:06:04 <oerjan> <prooftechnique> I call it "Little Fermat's Theorem" <-- fermat's little theorem already exists.
02:06:16 <Bike> on the other hand i can get a six core vishera for under $150
02:06:18 <Bike> life is mysterious
02:06:56 <prooftechnique> oerjan: The proof was delivered childishly, so the idea is that it was delivered by a young Fermat
02:07:27 <Bike> "Current world record [for overclocking] is 8.79 GHz achieved on FX-8350 by Andre Yang using liquid nitrogen." why
02:08:00 <oerjan> you mean why didn't he use helium, right
02:08:03 <Bike> hmmmmmm i don't know how big the caches should be though
02:08:07 <Bike> is 8 MB sensible
02:08:53 <elliott> also do the haswells really cost that much?
02:09:11 <Bike> um, L3. L2 is three 2 MB caches, presumably pairs of cores share them?
02:09:32 <elliott> that sounds like a good amount of cache to me?
02:09:38 <elliott> I think L2 is a lot more relevant than L3 generally, but I might be wrong
02:09:40 <Bike> ok i have no idea.
02:09:46 <Bike> like at all. just saying.
02:09:52 <Fiora> I'm not sure which is more important either
02:10:02 <Fiora> I know on like, intel ones nowadays they only have like 256K per core L2? and the huge big thing in L3
02:10:11 <Bike> oh, here's a $200 haswell
02:10:20 <Bike> "Limit 5 per customer"
02:10:28 <Bike> pc shopping is really weird, y'all.
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02:10:46 <Bike> ah, you're probably right, this doesn't even mention the L2 size
02:10:47 <Fiora> if I remember right the big L3s are like, also a way to use up extra die space without emitting much more power
02:10:57 <Bike> but... it does mention the process size.
02:10:59 <Bike> thanks I guess?
02:11:07 <Fiora> L2 is the same on all haswells, I think? which might be why it's not mentioned
02:11:42 <Bike> well i was thinking because "256K per core" wouldn't be very impressive compared to this 2 MB per core-pair on this amd one, but that works too
02:12:01 <Bike> i don't know why i'm even looking this up, i don't think i'll be hacking deep enough that i need to know the µarch >_>
02:14:02 <Bike> http://c1.neweggimages.com/BizIntell/item/19/116/19-116-901/herox.jpg the ads are fantastic though
02:15:01 <Bike> he's the adaptive techniques. if you need more PROCESSING POWER he yells at the instruction decoder until it gets its shit together
02:15:32 <Bike> this thing lists more than one thread per core... is that that hyperthreading thing
02:17:48 <Bike> maybe i should just buy a bunch of DSPs to fuck with instead. people still use those right.
02:19:50 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, in Famicom Hangman, shorter words/phrases get you more tries than longer ones.
02:22:00 <prooftechnique> https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/a3ec9cd009cad7b4825479fae0a4b632/tumblr_inline_mvj43rbyXS1qik0w4.jpg
02:22:38 <prooftechnique> I'm a bit surprised that those two on the end are standing together
02:26:30 <quintopia> i uploaded two example programs to go with the SELECT. interpreter. these two work. just wish someone would write one that tests some other language features :D. http://rutteric.com/files/
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02:47:49 <zzo38> Have you played hangman games with a time limit?
03:16:35 <zzo38> Using the symbols &|!()10 only, can anything be made in Perl other than only the boolean condition checking if a 1 and 0 is only by itself?
03:33:18 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game I was trying to add more tally marks. The DM said there was room for 818 in total. This doesn't seem right to me, since 818 isn't a multiple of five.
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03:45:47 <Bike> huh. church's thesis doesn't hold in a newtonian universe. neat.
03:47:05 <Bike> "We will sketch a proof (it is based on Gerver’s proof of the ‘‘Painleve con-
03:47:08 <Bike> jecture’’ in the plane) of Theorem 4 that an uncountably infinite number of topologically distinct trajectories are
03:47:11 <Bike> possible in 1 s, among the planar N-body problems with fixed masses and whose initial locations lie within
03:47:14 <Bike> certain disjoint balls and whose velocities are bounded
03:47:27 <Bike> i don't like pasting the sentences on periods, it's a bad habit
03:49:32 <elliott> wait, what does that have to do with the Church-Turing thesis?
03:49:40 <elliott> or is this some other thesis of Church's?
03:49:57 <Bike> it means a turing machine can't simulate the topological properties of the bodies' trajectories
03:50:01 <Bike> (in finite time)
03:51:30 <Bike> oh and the initial configuration isn't even uncomputable, sweet
04:02:15 <Sgeo> What do people here think about Elixir?
04:02:40 <Bike> I like panaceas but I don't think they exist.
04:03:09 <Bike> The language of the birds?
04:09:22 <prooftechnique> Sgeo: I think the first Elixir demo I saw was pulling some data directly from some web service and turning it into code with macros
04:09:37 <prooftechnique> And the first reddit comment was "Oh, god, please never actually do this"
04:09:57 <prooftechnique> It looks like a nicer way to write Erlang, if nothing else
04:11:04 <kmc> i like that on mushroomobserver.org if you don't know what kind of mushroom is in your photo you can put "Agaricales sensu lato"
04:11:12 <kmc> which is latin for "looks like a mushroom, I guess"
04:11:36 <kmc> (okay it's latin for "agarics, in the loose sense")
04:12:11 <kmc> if you're extra unsure you can just put "fungi" instead
04:12:22 <kmc> is there a designation above kingdom which includes all life
04:12:38 <Bike> cladistics people usually just go for "unranked" i think
04:12:48 <Bike> since i mean, it's a tree, the levels are gonna get hairy anyway.
04:13:12 <elliott> kmc: there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-domain_system at least?
04:13:15 <Bike> also using latin to obscure that you mean something boringly obvious is kind of great. incertae cedis~
04:13:34 <Bike> i should really hit up some taxonomists on twitter to see wtf they do in the presence of cladistics
04:13:58 <Sgeo> But what about maybe-life?
04:14:11 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mammal_Diversity_2011.png mammal diversity
04:14:12 <Bike> viruses are a whole different ballgame.
04:14:20 <Bike> they change way faster than the rest, for one.
04:14:46 <kmc> petition to designate richard nixon as the type specimen for H. sapiens
04:14:52 <Bike> isn't that what i typed... oh, oops, yes sedis
04:15:13 <Bike> Sgeo: also viruses may be paraphyletic which is pretty cool imo
04:15:47 <kmc> that is cool
04:15:49 <Bike> i actually have no idea about viral taxonomy. i'd grab a book on it if i didn't already have five books checked out
04:15:57 <kmc> it doesn't take long for things like viruses to evolve in artificial life systems
04:16:18 <Bike> it kind of ties into abiogenesis stuff. like, were virus-like things first, or did they arise from bacteria, or what.
04:16:26 <Sgeo> Bike: I read the wiki page for paraphyly, still don't know what you mean by that
04:16:52 <Bike> Sgeo: viruses being paraphyletic would mean that the last common ancestor of all viruses is not a virus, i.e. that virality arose several times independently.
04:16:53 <kmc> so why has something like life only evolved once on earth, anyway? is it just that it took a really long time? or is it that anything life-like which starts out today gets eaten by the usual kind of life?
04:17:22 <kmc> (how would you designate the latter, anyway? "nucleic acid life"?)
04:17:24 <Bike> Sgeo: (or er that the tree of ancestry includes non-viruses anyway)
04:17:47 <Bike> kmc: i've thought about that a decent amount, but part of it is you have to qualify the universality of life
04:17:48 <kmc> I guess it's like asking why nobody has replaced UNIX
04:17:55 <Bike> i mean, we pretty much all use RNA
04:18:05 <Bike> BUT sometimes the amino acid coding is different!
04:18:13 <kmc> that's pretty cool
04:18:41 <Bike> And some things, like lipid bilayers, those are just... convenient. I'm not sure how they would be replaced.
04:19:46 <Bike> it probably comes down to "we don't know enough about abiogenesis to make decent guesses" though, which suckz
04:20:59 <kmc> there was that one abiogenesis experiment but it turned out to be wrong? i have a great memory of high school bio class as you can tell
04:21:08 <Bike> You mean Miller-Urey?
04:21:15 <Bike> the "throw some gas in a tube and get amino acids" thing.
04:26:07 <Bike> yeah the conditions they used weren't really very early-earth-like, and besides that life is rather more complicated than a couple monomers
04:26:47 <Bike> living organisms obviously have their bilayers and their nucleotides, but even with just proteins you need a damn complex system (itself made mostly of proteins) to make everything fold right...
04:27:41 <kmc> there's the theory that RNA itself served as the enzymes at first, right?
04:28:57 <Bike> Yeah. and rna even still does that in living organisms.
04:29:13 <kmc> that's cool
04:29:17 <Bike> yeah they call them 'ribozymes'
04:29:33 <Bike> Because... I dunno? I guess having an r plus the zy makes it even cooler sounding.
04:29:33 <kmc> what's the advantage of protein enzymes
04:29:48 <kmc> advantage of DNA over RNA for data storage is durability?
04:30:23 <Bike> that's about where my cargo culted molecular bio runs out i'm afraid
04:30:35 <Bike> i kind of think of proteins as being more... flexible
04:31:05 <Bike> when you really look at how a protein works, often it's made up of like four separate "domains" that each do their own thing, have their own binding sites, but can induce conformational changes in the other domains (i think) and stuff like that
04:31:20 <Bike> iunno if you could replace titin with rna, basically
04:33:33 <Bike> proteins are like, really complicated /mechanically/, and i don't know if you can do that while staying hereditarily stable, i guess...
04:34:31 <Bike> maybe it's like, separation of concerns. which is vague and the analogy hardly works at all god
04:35:23 <kmc> and if you're doing a translation thing anyway then maybe amino acids are a more flexible thing to translate to
04:35:55 <kmc> Bike: i was gonna make an analogy to hereditary source code vs. ephemeral build products but that's even worse ;)
04:37:25 <Bike> i'm kind of thinking of this like, here's gentoo on a macbook, now figure out how MULTICS worked.
04:37:58 <kmc> and your main tool is, you can break parts of the macbook and see what still functions
04:39:38 <Bike> you also have the fossil record, which is a bunch of partially accurate descriptions of how older linux distributions functioned you found on some help forums.
04:40:19 <kmc> okay time to ride some trains, ttyl all
04:56:09 <prooftechnique> > let hangman (x:xs) (y:ys) c | y == c = c : hangman xs ys c | otherwise = x : hangman xs ys c; hangman _ _ _ = ""; in hangman "____" "jazz" 'z' -- augur_
04:57:22 <augur_> prooftechnique: what does it do exactly
04:57:49 <Bike> you give it blanks, the real word, and a chosen letter, and it computes the filled in letters bla bla bla.
04:58:09 <augur_> oh oh i see what you mean
04:58:21 <Bike> It'll be a big help when you play against me. "methylenedioxymethamphetamine" is easy to remember, but the longer ones, welllll
04:58:47 <augur_> its methylene-dioxy-3,4-n-methylamphetamine, to be precise
04:59:20 <augur_> or 3,4 at the beginning, take your pick
04:59:22 <Bike> it's party dust mother fucker
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05:23:39 <Bike> "Thus there exist initial configurations of N bodies in the plane in which several of the bodies will hit the unit circle within 1.2 s iff the Riemann hypothesis is false (and the trajectories may be interpreted as a description of a counterexample)"
05:25:23 <Fiora> does that require real number computation?
05:26:05 <Bike> yeah, but the initial configuration can be computable.
05:26:15 <Bike> obviously this isn't actually a practical help towards /finding/ a counterexample, but.
05:27:15 <Bike> hm, the state of unsimulatable initial configurations is of measure zero though..
05:27:18 <Bike> this paper is weird.
05:29:04 <Bike> also kind of informal. «The third and most complicated set of laws we discuss (and the one we will concentrate on) is "modified linearized general relativity", which has all the mathematically annoying features of SRTG, and also has tensors.»
05:31:42 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/barbershop-pole-finally-runs-out,34491/
05:32:59 <Bike> Fiora: i think this stuff basically comes about because of the newtonian-physics-allows-infinite-energy thing.
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06:45:50 <Sgeo> A computer program just called me a distinguished Haskell coder
06:45:55 <Sgeo> Based on ... not very much
06:46:01 <Sgeo> http://osrc.dfm.io/Sgeo
06:46:11 <Sgeo> Open Source Report Card
06:46:33 <zzo38> What is it based on?
06:46:53 <Sgeo> GitHub profile
06:47:40 <Fiora> Bike: how does that thing work?
06:47:58 <Bike> the infinite energy thing
06:48:19 <zzo38> Not everyone has GitHub profiles though, and there may also be many programming languages that GitHub profiles do not yet include.
06:48:52 <Bike> I tried to read Xia's paper once but it was beyond me
06:49:29 <Bike> Basically, with the right initial conditions (and the paper is about what these conditions are) you can get an object infinitely far away in finite time
06:49:37 <Bike> but of course, that's just restating "infinite energy".
06:52:10 <Bike> I did get far enough to read that Xia's construction uses five bodies and is symmetrical across one axis.
06:52:36 <Bike> So I kind of imagine four bodies moving back and forth as the last goes straight between them, getting faster and faster exponentially (or uh, superexponentially i guess?)
06:53:13 <Fiora> is that possible without arbitrarily small distances between objects?
06:53:39 <Fiora> like. if you apply a constraint like the planck length does it stil work
06:54:11 <Bike> that would probably be a whole other paper. the classical n-body equations are in continuous spacetime.
06:54:21 <Fiora> oh. so it's not like. realistic
06:54:39 <Bike> Newtonian physics is unrealistic to begin with, though.
06:54:47 <Bike> Because, I mean. Einstein.
06:55:49 <Fiora> oh. so like, relativity doesn't have that ""vulnerability""?
06:56:13 <Bike> Can't exactly get to an infinite speed, now can you?
06:57:05 <Bike> xia's paper is http://www.jstor.org/stable/2946572 if you want to take a crack but it's long and hard
07:06:05 <Bike> oh, there's a short explanation of another construction in this paper...
07:06:12 <Bike> it involves arranging things so that an asteroid moves polygonally. @_@
07:07:03 <Bike> And uh the infinitizing comes by...
07:07:14 <Bike> As a consequence of properties I–III, the entire N-gon expands in roughly geometric progression to infinite
07:07:18 <Bike> size, but the asteroid traverses the N-gon edges in durations of time which shrink roughly geometrically
07:07:21 <Bike> toward zero. In consequence, the asteroid travels an infinite number of circuits around the N-gon (and this
07:07:24 <Bike> is an infinite distance), as the N-gon grows to infinite size, in a finite time tsingular,
07:08:04 <Bike> so, that's basically insane.
07:09:48 <Fiora> so like does this mean newtonian mechanics doesn't conserve energy?
07:10:37 <Bike> Um... I think in this construction, as the asteroid speeds up super fast the stars it's orbiting slow down.
07:10:54 <Fiora> does that mean you need an infinite number of stars or something?
07:11:02 <Fiora> since like, the energy has to come from somewhere
07:11:37 <Bike> it comes from the stars slowing down. i think.
07:11:42 <zzo38> Does it violate things like that? Without doing such an experiment, or proving it mathematically inconsistent, it isn'ta reason to call such a theory wrong. (Now we do, but that doesn't seem a way?)
07:11:48 <Fiora> the stars start with an infinite amount of energy... (???)
07:12:11 <Bike> zzo38: you're going to need to rephrase that more readably
07:12:17 <Bike> Fiora: i don't know. math is hard
07:12:32 <Bike> pretty sure newton is supposed to conserve energy though so lol i dunno
07:12:37 <Bike> maybe i was wrong in talking about infinite energy
07:13:19 <Fiora> maybe just, like, unbounded?
07:13:34 <shachaf> Bike: What, is he running out of food or something?
07:13:45 <Bike> that is a joke i do not understand
07:14:07 <zzo38> Bike: O, I thought it is clear to me at least.
07:14:32 <Bike> "A baseball player on a frictionless plane surface flings a ball against a wall repeatedly" physics.jpg
07:35:28 <kmc> http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-who-drinks-5-diet-cokes-per-day-hoping-doctors,34570/ this is me
07:36:15 <zzo38> Hoping doctors are what?
07:36:33 <kmc> "working on a cure for whatever he's getting"
07:36:46 <shachaf> Like "raining cats and dogs".
07:37:48 <shachaf> zzo38: i learned to play Magic: The Gathering
07:38:16 <kmc> are you any good at it?
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07:42:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you think some of the rules are too klugy?
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07:46:21 <shachaf> zzo38: It's v. complicated.
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07:58:10 <oklopol> i even have cards and stuff
07:58:35 <zzo38> I have no cards, but I sometimes do play the game (not very commonly though).
07:59:39 <oklopol> http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3315 i have this guy
08:00:15 <oklopol> i played this as a kid and i always mainly tried to manage to play that
08:00:29 <shachaf> oklopol: Is "unaffected by summoning sickness" distinct from "Haste"?
08:00:45 <zzo38> Haste makes it unaffected by summoning sickness.
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08:01:08 <oklopol> i also had 4 cards that simply let you play that card
08:01:25 <oklopol> Haste is a very old mechanic, and has existed at least since 4th Edition on Ball Lightning. However the Haste keyword was not added until much later.
08:01:30 <oklopol> http://mtg.wikia.com/wiki/Haste
08:02:08 <zzo38> (Summoning sickness is given to all permanents when they enter play/are created. At end of each turn, all permanents lose summoning sickness. Creatures with summoning sickness cannot attack, and any abilities with the tap symbol in their cost are unusable if it is a creature.)
08:02:22 <shachaf> zzo38: All permanents? I thought it was just creatures?
08:03:02 <shachaf> Hmm, "unusable if it is a creature". So non-creatures have summoning sickness but it's unobservable?
08:03:56 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, like that. It is also unused if the permanent has the Haste ability.
08:04:19 <oklopol> most of my friends play all sorts of rpg and card games and watch anime and stuff
08:04:41 <shachaf> oklopol: do you know things about chu spaces
08:06:01 <shachaf> oklopol: well anyway can you define a topological space/system/thingy as a product of some C and D^op
08:06:09 <oklopol> my first impression is that chu spaces sound a bit silly, topological spaces are already much more general than you need in real life
08:06:27 <shachaf> oklopol: well look at the definition of a morphism though! what's with that
08:07:03 <oklopol> of morphisms between chu spaces?
08:07:26 <oklopol> Understood statically, a Chu space (A, r, X) over a set K consists of a set A of points, a set X of states, and a function r : A × X → K. This makes it an A × X matrix with entries drawn from K, or equivalently a K-valued binary relation between A and X (ordinary binary relations being 2-valued).
08:07:40 <oklopol> okay maybe i should first try to parse that
08:07:42 <shachaf> so it's sort of like an adjunction (can you make it an actual adjunctiony thing by having p/q in p(f(a),b) = q(a,g(b)) be functors sort of like hom functors)
08:08:13 <Bike> i can't even make sense of the binary relation crap
08:08:23 <shachaf> oklopol: Well, the "topological system" thing in this book is less general than Chu spaces.
08:09:02 <shachaf> In particular, there's a "frame" -- a lattice that has finite meets and arbitrary joins, such that meets distribute over joins -- and a set of "points"
08:09:04 <oklopol> Bike: it just calls a function a binary K-valued relation.
08:09:19 <oklopol> i mean a function from A times X to K is called a binary K-valued relation
08:09:30 <shachaf> Where the frame corresponds to the topology, of course.
08:10:51 <shachaf> So you have (X,A) where X is a set of points and A is a lattice of "opens" (which aren't sets, just things). And you have a "satisfies" relation, x |= a, that tells you whether a point satisfies an open.
08:11:20 <shachaf> You could say that points are what things "are" and opens are what observations you can make of them.
08:11:31 <oklopol> so A and X are the other way around than in wikipedia?
08:11:57 <shachaf> Oh, I just used the other letters.
08:12:11 <Bike> so what do you get out of this
08:12:17 <shachaf> The definition of Chu space is completely symmetrical so it doesn't matter.
08:12:30 <shachaf> But this one isn't, since you have a set and a frame.
08:12:45 <oklopol> okay so that's something between a topological spaces and a pointless topological space i guess
08:13:05 <shachaf> In fact if X = {} you get a pointless topological space, I guess.
08:13:14 <oklopol> perhaps it's exactly the latter (it's properly more general than the former though)
08:14:18 <oklopol> i figured two opens are indeed distinct iff they have different points (they are then sets, but it's still more general than the usual notion of topology)
08:14:21 <shachaf> I think there's some adjunction relation with functors between this thing and topological spaces and locales being forgetful/free or something. I don't remember.
08:14:40 <shachaf> No, you could have distinct opens that satisfy the same points.
08:14:47 <shachaf> Er, that are satisfied by.
08:14:58 <oklopol> can you have U < V even if U has more points
08:15:05 <shachaf> That's the "that the open sets be extensional" part of the Chu space page.
08:15:47 <oklopol> or does the frame somehow be a refinement of a sublattice of the lattice of subsets of X at least (if that makes sense.)
08:17:03 <shachaf> OK, there are requirements on |=
08:17:42 <shachaf> "If S is a finite subset of A, then x |= Join S <-> x |= a for all a in S"
08:18:07 <shachaf> "If S is a finite subset of A, then x |= Meet S <-> x |= a for all a in S"
08:18:33 <shachaf> "If S is any subset of A, then x |= Join S <-> x |= a for some a in S"
08:18:53 <oklopol> okay the morphisms of chu spaces certainly seem adjunctive. however, i do not quite get them yet.
08:19:21 <shachaf> Well, the definition is pretty intuitive from the perspective of topological systems, at least.
08:19:41 <shachaf> If you think of opens as "finite observations" that you can make about points.
08:19:47 <oklopol> ("adjunctive" in a very non-mathematical sense that this looks vaguely similar to some things i've seen when trying to understand adjunctions.)
08:20:38 <shachaf> So you might have bit streams as points, and "starts with 00101" as an open.
08:21:04 <shachaf> But "the stream is all 0s" not as an open, because it observes an infinite amount of information, say.
08:21:23 <oklopol> okay "x |= Join S <-> x |= a for all a in S" and "x |= Meet S <-> x |= a for all a in S" makes things pretty simple
08:21:25 <shachaf> Or "this real number is within the interval (x-d,x+d)"
08:21:39 <oklopol> but perhaps that's a typo.
08:21:52 <shachaf> No, one of them was wrong.
08:22:04 <oklopol> so it seems that joins are really set-theoretical joins and meets are really set-theoretical meets, and the lattice is there only for presentational reasons?
08:22:20 <oklopol> i mean associate with each open the set of points that satisfy it
08:22:28 <shachaf> By set-theorical joins/meets do you mean unions/intersections?
08:22:39 <oklopol> now the join of 2 opens is open, and is satisfied by exactly the union
08:23:04 <shachaf> Yes, clearly for any topological space (X,ΩX), (X,ΩX,∈) is a "topological system".
08:23:32 <shachaf> But even if the set of points is empty you can have lots of different topological systems with different frames.
08:23:44 <oklopol> i thought the definition of join and meet was w.r.t. the lattice itself (in the abstract sense), so that they are just minimal upper bound etc.. then you get some weird additional stuff for i think.
08:23:46 <shachaf> Since there's no requirement that opens are extensional.
08:24:21 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean?
08:24:45 <oklopol> the current definition is interesting enough
08:25:22 <shachaf> Anyway so if you think of opens as observations that you ought to be able to make, then you might ask what a structure-preserving function between (X,A) and (Y,B) could be.
08:25:45 <shachaf> Clearly it maps points to points, so you have f : X -> Y
08:26:34 <shachaf> But if b is some B-open, and f(x) |= b, then that's a finite observation you were able to make (by using f and an observation in (Y,B)).
08:27:07 <shachaf> So there ought to be some A-open that x satisfies, if it's structure-preserving.
08:27:28 <oklopol> oh that's the role of the backmap
08:27:39 <oklopol> should've been obvious i guess
08:27:40 <shachaf> In particular, given f, there ought to be some thing g : B -> A such that f(x) |= b iff x |= g(b)
08:28:02 <shachaf> And it works out nicely for g to be a frame homomorphism, of course.
08:28:59 <shachaf> So a "continuous function" between (X,A) and (Y,B) is defined to be (f : X -> Y, g : B -> A) such that f(x) |= b iff x |= g(b)
08:29:00 <oklopol> that's something we require i guess?
08:29:07 <shachaf> (And g is a frame homomorphism.)
08:30:18 <oklopol> okay in the case of usual topology, g is precisely the map that maps an open to its f-preimage i guess
08:30:23 <shachaf> If you take a topological space, so that b is an open set, then clearly this is just defining g to be -- right.
08:30:56 <shachaf> So the morphism is entirely defined by f.
08:31:31 <oklopol> if the frame is like injective in the sense that no two opens have the same points
08:31:37 <oklopol> then i guess it's determined by f
08:31:49 <shachaf> I mean in the case of a usual topological space.
08:31:53 <shachaf> In general it isn't, of course.
08:32:01 <shachaf> (For example when X is empty.)
08:32:05 <oklopol> in general, i guess you explicitly require that it's a lattice homomorphism?
08:32:21 <shachaf> g? A frame homomorphism, yes.
08:33:13 <oklopol> The counterpart of a continuous function from (A, r, X) to (B, s, Y) is a pair (f, g) of functions f : A → B, g : Y → X satisfying the adjointness condition s(f(a), y) = r(a, g(y)) for all a ∈ A and y ∈ Y.
08:33:18 <oklopol> okay i totally get this now
08:33:29 <oklopol> that looked really weird a few minutes ago.
08:34:07 <shachaf> Right, so a Chu space generalizes a frame to not necessarily be a frame, and generalizes |= : (A,X) -> Bool to |= : (A,X) -> K
08:35:03 <oklopol> let X be a topological space and Y a subset
08:35:24 <oklopol> then you get a topological system on Y by taking as the frame the opens of X
08:36:08 <oklopol> the frame is always the same as it was in X, but for example if Y = {} then the satisfaction relation is pretty trivial.
08:36:15 <oklopol> perhaps all topological systems arise this way?
08:37:43 <shachaf> Hmm, it's possible. I don't know.
08:38:04 <oklopol> in general topology, subspaces are defined the same way (except you add Y as an open set), but some open sets of X become the same set for Y; now you just don't identify them. and i guess it makes sense for the "frame" of the sub-topological system to be the same as the frame of the original space.
08:38:52 <oklopol> (makes sense in the sense that the word "frame" could be considered to suggest that)
08:39:09 <oklopol> (or it could be considered to suggest anything else i guess)
08:40:45 <shachaf> I think possibly this book talks about that but I've only read some of it so far.
08:42:45 <shachaf> So this "adjointness condition" thing and the backwards-and-forwards maps thing are a bit strange.
08:42:59 <oklopol> i don't really get adjointness
08:43:27 <shachaf> It sounds like maybe you could define it as some product C × D^op or something, if you could figure out a nice way of talking about the extra condition.
08:43:38 <oklopol> (i've tried to get it quite a few times)
08:44:22 <shachaf> The usual definition of an adjunction F -| G is that Hom(F(A), B) ≅ Hom(A, G(B)), natural in A and B
08:44:27 <shachaf> (Where F and G are functors, of course.)
08:44:40 <oklopol> btw i've noticed you're on #categorytheory, did you perhaps mention the channel at some point? i have no idea why i'm there myself
08:44:57 <oklopol> yeah but what's "natural in A and B"
08:45:22 <shachaf> So this is very similar, except it's dealing with functions instead of functors, and it generalizes Hom_C/Hom_D to s/r.
08:45:23 <oklopol> something that takes a page to define and a week to take in, and then it's obvious?
08:45:45 <shachaf> Well, it means you have a natural isomorphism between functors.
08:45:51 <shachaf> I don't know if I mentioned ##categorytheory in here.
08:46:08 <shachaf> Naturality does take a bit to take in.
08:46:12 <oklopol> Hom(F(A), B) is not a functor, it's a set.
08:46:27 <shachaf> The functors \a b -> Hom(F(a), b)
08:46:36 <shachaf> Which is : C^op x D -> Set
08:46:52 <shachaf> Er, and the other Hom functor which gets the same type, of course.
08:47:42 <oklopol> that's actually something that sounds understandable
08:48:27 <shachaf> Usually people write it Hom(F(-), -) and so on
08:48:43 <shachaf> When you say "natural in X" it means that X is implicitly an argument.
08:49:01 <oklopol> but you have to guess what categories are dualed
08:49:04 <shachaf> And that you have a natural transformation.
08:49:16 <oklopol> i guess there's no choice...
08:49:21 <shachaf> Well, Hom_C : C^op x C -> Set
08:50:02 <shachaf> And F : D -> C, and we overload that to mean F : D^op -> C^op because it's the same thing.
08:50:28 <shachaf> I guess you could write Hom(F^op(-), -) ≅ Hom(-, G(-))
08:51:10 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's helpful though (is it unambiguous even?)
08:51:59 <shachaf> It's not very standard because it's usually pretty obvious which way F is being used.
08:54:20 <shachaf> Anyway, it seems pretty related to this whole topological system and/or Chu space thing.
08:54:26 <oklopol> so F and G are adjoint if the functors \a b -> Hom(F^op(a), b) and \a b -> Hom(a, G(b)) are adjoint, as functors C^op \times D \to Set
08:55:18 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjoint_functors#Hom-set_adjunction
08:55:24 <oklopol> naturally isomorphic = there's a natural transformation from F to G such that every object map F(x) \to G(x) is an isomorphism
08:56:51 <shachaf> (A natural isomorphism is probably defined as a pair (f : F -> G,g : G -> F) such that f . g = id, g . f = id with natural transformation composition. But I think that works out to the same thing.)
08:57:02 <oklopol> okay i guess that explains everything you just did
08:57:16 <oklopol> i haven't looked very closely at that definition, just the previous one
08:57:57 <shachaf> The unit-counit one is also nice but from a different perspective.
08:58:14 <shachaf> This is probably the simplest definition.
08:58:39 <shachaf> Note that when F has an inverse, it's always adjoint to its inverse.
08:58:48 <oklopol> probably, at least it looks like something i could understand if i spent half an hour looking at mental images of diagrams
08:58:56 <oklopol> might be a useful half an hour
08:59:13 <oklopol> adjoints are in some sense unique right
08:59:20 <shachaf> But if it doesn't have an inverse it might still have adjoints which you can think of as a best effort at an inverse or something.
09:00:14 <oklopol> i don't actually know what an inverse functor is, or at least what precisely should be required from one
09:00:38 <oklopol> in any case again that clarifies a lot
09:01:29 <shachaf> Well, the most obvious definition would be that you have an isomorphism between categories.
09:01:55 <shachaf> I.e. F . G = id, id = G . F
09:02:07 <oklopol> i guess F's inverse if G such that F \circ G and G \circ F are naturally isomorphic to the identity functors?
09:02:31 <oklopol> oh okay you mean that's the obvious one
09:02:44 <shachaf> Well, "exactly equal" is in practice too strong, you just want "naturally isomorphic".
09:02:56 <oklopol> so that you get for example equivalence with skeleton
09:03:11 <shachaf> If you pick "exactly equal" you get isomorphism of categories, which isn't really what you want in practice, so you use "naturally isomorphic" to get equivalent of categories.
09:03:35 <shachaf> And if you have F,G that give you an equivalence of categories then they're adjoint too.
09:04:00 <shachaf> You can often think of the special case of categories which are posets, and functors which are monotonic functions.
09:04:26 <shachaf> Where "≅" turns into "iff" and these are called "Galois connections" and people say it's simpler.
09:05:09 <oklopol> galois connections are awesome i hear
09:05:26 <shachaf> I hear that too but I don't understand them all that well.
09:06:27 <shachaf> Anyway, if you think of some way to relax "F . G ≅ id" and "id ≅ G . F", you might end up saying that those should just be natural transformations instead of isomorphisms.
09:06:39 <shachaf> That's the unit-counit of the other definition.
09:06:54 <shachaf> eps : F . G -> 1, eta : 1 -> G . F
09:07:25 <shachaf> You can think of it in the case of posets as relaxing f(g(x)) = x and x = g(f(x)) to f(g(x)) ≤ x and x ≤ g(f(x))
09:08:07 <shachaf> And there are some laws, namely that if you eta-and-then-eps you end up where you started.
09:08:31 <shachaf> Except they work in different categories, so it's more like "eps . fmap eta = id" and "fmap eps . eta = id"
09:08:49 <shachaf> I.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AdjointFunctorSymmetry.png
09:09:14 <shachaf> Going back and forth between these definitions is a good way to figure them out.
09:10:15 <shachaf> Well, that's how you write it in Haskell.
09:10:38 <shachaf> It's "eps . F eta" and "G eps . eta", or maybe the other way around.
09:11:40 <shachaf> Actually it's not exactly eps, it's eps-of-F-of, but anyway when you try to work out how these things could possibly compose there's only one way that makes sense.
09:12:58 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess talking about this helped me figure out part of my question.
09:13:27 <oklopol> i'm not really used to thinking about what makes sense when taking in definitions
09:13:51 <shachaf> OK, well, take the exact definition from Wikipedia or nlab.
09:15:02 <shachaf> The definition of continuous function didn't quite make sense to me until I saw the topological system formulation of it.
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09:15:25 <shachaf> Where it's vaguely obvious -- it's just a structure-preserving map as usual.
09:18:44 <oklopol> eta is a functor from D to itself
09:18:54 <shachaf> eta is a natural transformation
09:19:19 <oklopol> eta is a natural transformation from 1_D to GF
09:19:36 <oklopol> and now we're composing if with a functor from D to C
09:19:37 <shachaf> Ah, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_transformation#Operations_with_natural_transformations for the notation used in that article.
09:20:12 <oklopol> (i've gone down this road but i usually lose patience at some point :P)
09:20:42 <shachaf> So for eta : G -> H, F eta : F.G -> F.H
09:22:25 <shachaf> (I'm explaining this much more confusingly than Wikipedia so just read that.)
09:23:41 <oklopol> well it's helpful to have someone be all like lol this is easy
09:23:53 <oklopol> usually i don't have much pressure to learn this since i don't know anyone who knows category theory
09:24:33 <shachaf> I don't know category theory. :-( Sometimes I pretend to know a bit on IRC.
09:25:12 <shachaf> But it certainly seems like it's relevant here to the whole adjointness thing.
09:26:16 <shachaf> Maybe you can generalize Chu spaces to work in arbitrary categories, with p/q being functors rather than functions?
09:26:58 <shachaf> I mean the ones in p(f(a), b) = q(a, g(b))
09:27:11 <shachaf> Except this is already more general than adjunctions in a couple of ways.
09:27:48 <shachaf> Talking about f . g doesn't even make sense here because A/B and X/Y are two different kinds of things, not necessarily both categories/sets/whatever.
09:28:22 <shachaf> And p/q aren't Hom, they're just functions.
09:29:12 <shachaf> (Saying that p/q are "2-valued" as opposed to "K-valued" seems a bit like talking about posets/preörders instead of general categories.)
09:30:50 <shachaf> Let's put the contravariant argument first to make it more like Hom.
09:31:37 <shachaf> So a space-system-thingy is (A,X,p : A×X -> K)
09:31:58 <oklopol> i had a dream that i tried to put my pants on and it was incredibly hard
09:32:33 <oklopol> i was just about to step outside my apartment, when i realized i had no clothes on
09:33:12 <oklopol> my girlfriend and her sister were inside, and i was embarrassed that they'd know i almost went outside without any clothes on so i started putting them on at the door, while afraid that someone would see me
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09:34:07 <shachaf> And a homomorphism : (A,X,p) -> (B,Y,q) is (f : B -> A, g : X -> Y) s.t. for any b : B, x : X, p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x))
09:34:27 <oklopol> so what are A, X, p and K here
09:34:39 <oklopol> sets, categories or nostrils?
09:34:46 <shachaf> In a Chu space? I think they're just sets and functions.
09:34:57 <oklopol> oh i thought you were already generalizing there.
09:35:15 <shachaf> No, this is still the old Chu space thing.
09:35:32 <oklopol> so the latter guy in the tuple is the points
09:35:36 <oklopol> and the first is the frame
09:35:59 <shachaf> So one issue here in the definition of Chu space is that f is just a regular function, not a homomorphism.
09:36:48 <shachaf> So I guess you should say that A/B are objects in one category and X/Y are objects in another category.
09:37:35 <shachaf> Running out of letters. :-(
09:38:06 <shachaf> OK, using categories instead of functions makes it clearer, actually.
09:38:39 <shachaf> So we have (A : C, X : D, p : A^op × X -> K)
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09:39:22 <shachaf> There are probably properties that we want p to satisfy to make it "Hom-like".
09:39:42 <shachaf> Isn't there a thing for functors that are like Hom?
09:40:08 <shachaf> Related to presheaves or something, maybe?
09:40:08 <oklopol> when you say p is a functor
09:40:22 <oklopol> do you mean p is a functor from C^op \times D to K
09:40:31 <oklopol> or what's a functor from an object
09:40:43 <shachaf> Er, you're right, that made no sense.
09:41:21 <shachaf> What does A×X even mean when A and X are objects?
09:41:40 <shachaf> (In different categories.)
09:41:45 <oklopol> it means the tuple (A, X)?
09:42:13 <shachaf> I'm mixing up levels here.
09:42:36 <oklopol> but yeah it seems you are trying to work with morphisms between objects that come from different categories
09:43:40 <shachaf> Well, right. That's one of the ways in which these Chu space things are weirder than regular adjunctions.
09:44:16 <asie> this is the most interesting channel i keep not looking at because i don't understand a word
09:44:27 <shachaf> OK, so the old definition: A space is (A : Set, X : Set, p : A×X -> K)
09:44:50 <shachaf> Where K is some global fixed thing.
09:45:44 <shachaf> A homomorphism : (A,X,p) -> (B,Y,q) is (f : B -> A, g : X -> Y) s.t. forall b∈B, x∈X, p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x))
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09:51:04 <oklopol> i have no idea how that should be generalized
09:51:19 <shachaf> As it is it doesn't even cover our old notion of topological systems.
09:51:28 <shachaf> Since we can't get frame homomorphisms.
09:52:21 <shachaf> Maybe we can relax the "K-valued relation" thing for a bit and bring back the iffs.
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09:53:25 <shachaf> I just want something that lets you express the topological system thing in a reasonable way.
09:53:46 <shachaf> But I'm pretty sure p ought to be something more than a function somehow.
09:55:05 <oklopol> you have two categories, the one of points (Set) and the one for frames (Lattice?). a topological system is, first of all, a tuple (X, A) where X is from the point category and A is from the frame category but how do you say which points are in which opens?
09:55:32 <shachaf> Frames aren't just lattices, they're a bit more.
09:55:52 <oklopol> you mean because they have infinite joins or what
09:56:00 <shachaf> And meets distribute over joins.
09:56:11 <shachaf> Anyway, a system is (X, A, |=), I guess.
09:56:25 <oklopol> let's say that's what Lattice is the category of.
09:56:31 <oklopol> but okay let's call if Frame
09:56:45 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_heyting_algebra calls it Frm
09:56:56 <oklopol> still how do you connect two objects from different categories
09:57:09 <shachaf> Anyway, "satisfies" is a relation, |= ⊆ X×A
09:57:10 <oklopol> i guess you could have a fixed functor from Frm to Set
09:57:23 <shachaf> Which is a pretty unsatisfying way of doing it.
09:57:24 <oklopol> or maybe that's a bad idea
09:59:51 <shachaf> Maybe I should read http://boole.stanford.edu/pub/coimbra.pdf
10:00:13 <shachaf> Ugh, it calls the points A and the "states" X.
10:00:20 <shachaf> That's too confusing for me.
10:01:27 <oklopol> proves that functions between Chu
10:01:27 <oklopol> spaces are continuous if and only if they are homomorphisms.
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10:03:20 <shachaf> Well, given the definition of continuous that they have in that PDF, sure.
10:04:02 <shachaf> Oh, I should have read all of the Wikipedia article, too.
10:05:00 <shachaf> So if you put everything in some monoidal category you can do all the same things.
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10:05:55 <shachaf> I.e. a (C : Cat, K : C)-space is (A : C, X : C, p : A⊗X -> K)
10:06:50 <shachaf> And a morphism : (A,X,p) -> (B,Y,q) is (f : B -> A, g : X -> Y) s.t. forall b:B, x:X. p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x))
10:07:00 <shachaf> Where maybe = means isomorphic?
10:08:08 <shachaf> Maybe we can recover the usual notion of adjunction from that.
10:09:15 <shachaf> Chu(Cat, Set), where every p is p(-,-) = Hom(-^op,-)
10:09:42 <shachaf> Having to insert that ^op is really ugly, surely there's a nicer way to express all this?
10:11:27 <oklopol> "<shachaf> Where maybe = means isomorphic?" i would default to "equal"
10:12:12 <shachaf> "isomorphic" gives us the wrong thing in the Set case.
10:12:28 <shachaf> But it gives us the right thing in the category case. :-) I don't know.
10:13:58 <shachaf> But neither of them lets us do the thing where we have two different categories.
10:14:38 <oklopol> what does p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x)) doesn't even mean? is C a concrete category
10:15:39 <shachaf> I think it means that I'm saying complete nonsense again. Sigh.
10:16:05 <shachaf> So what am I trying to say here?
10:16:54 <shachaf> The original Chu construction as described in Po-Hsiang (Peter) Chu’s master’s
10:16:57 <shachaf> thesis took a symmetric monoidal closed category V with pullbacks and an
10:16:59 <shachaf> object k of V and “completed” V to a self-dual category Chu(V, k).
10:17:37 <oklopol> "forall b:B, x:X. p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x))" could be changed into "p \circ (f \times id_X) and q \circ (\id_B, g) are isomorphic morphisms in some category (the arrow category?)" maybe, assuming the category has products in a nice sense.
10:17:50 <oklopol> or maybe that means nothing either
10:18:14 <oklopol> what's closed category, does that mean cartesian closed i wonder
10:18:42 <shachaf> "monoidal closed" is like "cartesian closed" but with some monoidal category, not necessarily categorical product.
10:19:47 <shachaf> analogy with categories enriched in V [Kel82] one might refer to the
10:19:47 <shachaf> objects of the general Chu construction Chu(V, k) as V -enriched Chu spaces,
10:19:48 <shachaf> and indeed Chu(V, k) can be formulated as a V -category, one whose hom-objects
10:22:21 <shachaf> Oh, hmm, apparently Chu spaces were introduced in the context of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*-autonomous_category
10:23:20 <shachaf> Maybe that can be a place for the ^op to come from?
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10:23:45 <oklopol> why is category theory so harrrrd
10:23:51 <oklopol> sooooooooo harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd
10:23:57 <shachaf> ⊥ is an actual object here.
10:25:42 <shachaf> I'm too tired now to think about any of this.
10:25:48 <shachaf> oklopol: Thanks for your help!
10:26:17 <oklopol> i was helpful?? i thought you were teaching me.
10:26:36 <oklopol> but you're welcome i guess :P
10:27:27 <shachaf> It looks like de Paiva's thesis was about something related to all this.
10:27:42 <oklopol> there are basically no courses that talk about category theory at our university
10:27:57 <shachaf> I hear she sometimes comes to bacat. Maybe we can get her to talk about it.
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10:28:34 <shachaf> Well, the thing I was "really" trying to understand was the whole topological systems/Chu spaces bit. But it seems so categorical.
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10:36:20 <shachaf> When I was asking whether you could express the space/system/whatever as some sort of C×D^op, I was focusing too much on (A,X) and not enough on p.
10:37:08 <shachaf> But p is the important thing here anyway.
10:37:41 <shachaf> So that's why I wanted to say something like p : A^op×X -> K
10:38:37 <shachaf> But that doesn't make sense as-is and I don't know what sort of thing p would be or what sort of thing ^op would be such that it causes the arrows to be reversed.
10:38:59 <shachaf> Anyway, I'm going to sleep.
10:50:08 <oklopol> and yeah i too have no idea what anything should be, is, will be, or squirrels about.
11:06:05 <zzo38> What sort of games could be made out of category theory?
11:09:58 <zzo38> Or other various mathematical systems?
11:10:37 <zzo38> I have managed to make some out of sequent calculus.
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12:44:26 <ais523> oh wow, someone created a substitute-all-the-symbols language that /isn't/ based on brainfuck?
12:44:36 <ais523> that doesn't make it any better as a language, but at least it's more original than usual :)
12:44:49 * ais523 wonders what the Phantom Hoover verdict on that sort of language is
12:45:20 <asie> i'm learning Io
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13:52:20 <quintopia> ais523: it's not the first time. RAGE!!! is a syntax replacement for python
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13:53:16 <ais523> so it currently seems to be BF-or-(non-eso)-language, right?
13:53:40 <quintopia> i can't think of one that doesn't fit one of those two, no
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13:59:20 <quintopia> ais523: i have a challenge for you. come up with an algorithm that clears cells from an infinite BF tape based on a (cautious not-likely-to-make-type1-errors) analysis of the portion of the program that has left to be run
13:59:47 <ais523> quintopia: I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that
13:59:50 <quintopia> basically "it looks like this cell will never be read or written again, so delete it"
13:59:54 <ais523> is this about BF Joust or regular BF?
14:00:28 <ais523> so it's an attempt to throw away memory that will never be touched again?
14:00:39 <ais523> I just added a command for that in Shove
14:00:47 <ais523> which is a bit of a cop-out
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14:33:58 <oerjan> @tell fiora <Fiora> is that possible without arbitrarily small distances between objects? <-- i am assuming no, since that's the only way i can see you getting infinite kinetic energy from potential...
15:11:57 <FreeFull> A black hole should be able to give you infinite kinetic energy, right?
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15:14:29 <olsner> FreeFull: by accelerating you to infinite velocities?
15:14:55 <FreeFull> Yeah. There might be problems with regards to time though
15:15:35 <FreeFull> With regards of an external observer, you never even cross the event horizon
15:17:51 <oerjan> FreeFull: this was about newtonian mechanics, which doesn't have black holes.
15:18:49 <FreeFull> Newtonian mechanics has an infinite speed of light, right?
15:19:29 <oerjan> it might, in any case other objects don't have a speed limit.
15:20:52 <FreeFull> In Newtonian mechanics, you need either infinite velocity or mass
15:21:27 <FreeFull> Which probably does mean accelerating towards a singularity
15:22:08 <oerjan> the previous discussion was about how you _can_ get infinite speed in newtonian mechanics, even without starting with it.
15:22:18 <oerjan> for point masses, anyway.
15:29:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: just plain gravitation, no other forces.
15:30:25 <oerjan> as i was implying to Fiora, it's probably borrowing potential energy from two of the masses getting infinitely close/colliding.
15:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> well, two point masses falling towards each other will go infinitely fast won't they
15:34:10 <oerjan> think so. although the actual example has a point mass going infinitely fast towards infinity.
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16:07:29 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: golddfish breeding is kind of messed up sometimes.
16:08:19 <Phantom_Hoover> it seems to consist mostly of "how much can we fuck up a goldfish and still be able to breed it"
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16:18:12 <Taneb> Well, that was odd
16:18:24 <Taneb> Someone hid the carpet from my flat's hallway
16:22:13 <Taneb> Then, when everyone was standing around the bare underlay, he said "We need to cover it up. Maybe we can cover it up with this?", holding the carpet
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17:49:04 <fizzie> Today's innovation: In many (Windows) games, I can keep an SSH client open on a second monitor, while the game itself is fullscreen on the first -- but typically there's no way of interacting with the SSH client without alt-tabbing out of the game. However! I can "screen -x" the same screen window that's visible in the SSH client from a mobile device, and then connect a small Bluetooth ...
17:49:10 <fizzie> ... keyboard to that mobile device. And now I have a separate keyboard for blathering in IRC or whatever. So fancy.
17:51:17 <Taneb> Is there a way to have two different keyboards on the same device interacting with different windows
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17:51:47 <fizzie> You could certainly hack something up for that.
17:52:10 <fizzie> Write something that listens for /dev/input/eventX of the other keyboard, convince X not to listen to it, and have that program synthesize key events.
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17:52:22 <fizzie> I don't know of any out-of-the-box solutions, though.
17:52:38 <fizzie> There's MPX if you want different mice to have their own independent pointers.
17:53:27 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:53:39 <fizzie> (At least I think it was called MPX.)
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17:58:24 <Gregor> pavucontrol (pulse audio volume control) turns volumes UP when you scroll-wheel DOWN and DOWN when you scroll-wheel UP.
17:58:35 <Gregor> Software written by people who have never used software is the best kind of software.
17:58:52 <quintopia> ais523: the reason i want that problem solved is because SELECT. has no way of returning sufficiently modified cells to their original state without clobbering another cell, which means SELECT. programs are memory hogs by necessity (you have to use a new cell for every new number you want). so it would be nice if my interpreter could clean up unusable cells automatically
17:59:18 <ais523> quintopia: yeah, it's clearly an unsolvable problem in general, but it may be solvable in useful special cases
18:11:13 <Taneb> I HAVE BROKEN MY OATH
18:12:30 <Taneb> I promised I'd try to drink less caffeinated soft drinks
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18:12:37 <Taneb> After an incident a couple of weeks ago
18:12:52 <Sgeo> There is a CAOS command:
18:12:53 <ais523> Taneb: I decided to give them up for a bit several years ago
18:12:57 <ais523> like, umm, trying to work it out
18:13:02 <ais523> and haven't drunk them since
18:13:28 <ais523> giving up vehicles only lasted a month, though, but then that wasn't meant to be permanent
18:13:46 <ais523> still, it's interesting to learn how rarely they're needed
18:13:59 <ais523> atm I only use them if I'm in a hurry or it's raining really badly or I need to go a long distance
18:14:28 <ais523> actually when I give things up, it's never really meant to be permanent, sometimes it just turns out that way
18:14:30 <Taneb> Right now I actually don't need vehicles, the furthest I need to be is about half an hour's walk from here
18:14:47 <ais523> for me, s/half an hour/one hour ten minutes/
18:14:53 <ais523> much the same situation
18:15:15 <Taneb> But that's only in term time and not-term time. The edges I need to travel, I guess
18:15:58 <ais523> that's close to the reason I was travelling, too; I don't need to move house between termtime and holiday, but I'm sometimes needed to help other people travel
18:16:02 <ais523> coppro: that used to be the case for me, too
18:16:13 <ais523> but my bus pass ran out and I needed exercise and the commute seemed like a good time
18:16:32 <ais523> the nice thing about using walking as exercise is that nothing forces the start point and destination to be the same
18:16:38 <coppro> I have a student bus pass so it costs me nothing
18:16:43 <Taneb> Can you guys give any tips for finding flatmates
18:16:50 <ais523> yeah, I used to have a student bus pass, but I'm not eligible for it any more
18:16:57 <Taneb> I'm starting to think that I need to start to think about that
18:16:59 <ais523> Taneb: no, I can't, or at least my advice would probably be really bad
18:17:23 <Taneb> ais523, how about some cautionary tales?
18:17:35 <ais523> I've never had a flatmate
18:17:37 <coppro> step one, find a mate. step two, find a flat. step three, mate the flat and the mate
18:17:53 <ais523> you could probably get some cautionary tales from oerjan, though
18:17:53 <Sgeo> I'd paste a video I took yeserday, but when I made it, I was incompetent with the recording tool I used
18:18:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpufk1bed9M
18:18:19 <coppro> Taneb: be careful if you room with a good friend; it can deteriorate a friendship quick if you don't get along as roommates
18:18:24 <ais523> based on comments he made in #esoteric, he used to be with some if he disliked
18:18:30 <ais523> coppro: that sounds like good advice
18:19:03 <Taneb> coppro, I think that if that happened I'd blame myself and then be really sad
18:19:34 <coppro> if you can be choosy, ask about things like sleeping habits
18:20:00 <coppro> if you're social people, being on the same sleep schedule is good; if you're not, you may prefer being on different ones
18:20:26 <ais523> my sleep schedule is not actually random, but I'm not convinced it compresses well
18:21:01 <coppro> also figure out if you want to share food/dishes
18:21:26 <coppro> some people take the approach that each roommate brings their own and there is no sharing, others handle it communally. if you're doing communal, make sure to sort out payment
18:22:09 <coppro> cleaning is another big source of friction; work out your mutual expectations
18:22:18 <coppro> some people can't stand to live with things not clean, and others can't be bothered to clean
18:22:27 <coppro> unsurprisingly, these two types of people don't go well together
18:24:08 <Taneb> Thanks for the advice, coppro
18:24:17 <Taneb> And the caffeine and sugar are going to my head and I feel woozy
18:25:31 <coppro> (depending on the layout and personal preferences, significant others may also be an issue)
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19:48:32 <shachaf> ski: did you see the longversation about chu spaces in here yesterday
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19:54:03 <mroman_> How's everyone's hardware programming language going?
19:54:19 <zzo38> What hardware programming language?
19:56:58 <mroman_> I assumed everybode was working on one .
19:57:08 <mroman_> but really I just forgot how it was how was doing that
19:57:59 <mroman_> I'm apparentely a little bit legasthenic
19:58:01 <zzo38> Well, I am one of the people who was designing a hardware programming language, and wanted some comments about it
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20:02:58 <zzo38> I didn't add a lot recently since I didn't know what else needs to be change; one thing would be analog stuff, CMOS stuff, and various other things.
20:06:03 <zzo38> I think the macros are OK now though; do you think of anything missing or redundant or something with the macro system I have defined for this purpose?
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20:30:47 <Phantom_Hoover> you know i'm still waiting for jsvine to write that article
20:34:18 <zzo38> Yes, I didn't know they haven't done so yet?
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20:45:33 <mroman_> it has come to the point where I'm seriously designing esoteric processing units
20:50:06 <zzo38> mroman_: Can you describe it please?
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20:58:36 <mroman_> zzo38: I'm designig weird cpus :)
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20:59:10 <Bike> have you ever designed a blitter
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21:11:02 <mroman_> zzo38: http://codepad.org/43llKpDB
21:11:08 <Bike> aw, but they're cool.
21:11:33 <Bike> well, yeah. basically a coprocessor that can do memory movs according to a mask.
21:12:39 <mroman_> that SBA could actually be moved out of the loop to make it run faster
21:14:29 <mroman_> zzo38: I'm designing something with integrated Support for graphics stuff and stuff
21:14:34 <mroman_> then I'll write some crappy game for it
21:14:41 <mroman_> and then I consider the project done :)
21:18:59 <mroman_> DST and SRC set the destination and source
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21:19:07 <mroman_> because they arent encoded in instructions itself
21:19:20 <mroman_> but must ruther be set by instructions
21:19:45 <doesthiswork> Programming is a meritocracy because it’s an empirical activity. That’s why we don’t have programming fads or fashions.
21:20:02 <Bike> 1/10 not even mad
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21:22:36 <Taneb> doesthiswork, by wonderful do you mean humorously completely wrong?
21:23:10 <Bike> it's not a real opinion.
21:24:51 <doesthiswork> the consequence is so hilariously wrong that it disproves the antecedent.
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21:26:25 <Bike> "It's about time Stephen Wolfram got credit for inventing Lisp." good blog here
21:26:47 <olsner> huh, he hasn't taken credit for that yet?
21:27:23 <prooftechnique> Wolfram Language will be the last programming language we ever need™
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21:44:32 <Bike> is it called "Wolfram"
21:45:23 <olsner> doesthiswork: copywritten? :(
21:46:25 <olsner> or did you mean that the copy writer added the trademark sign
21:47:05 <zzo38> mroman_: OK, that is you have some idea
21:48:01 <doesthiswork> how are we supposed to make jokes if real life beats us to them
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21:54:54 <mroman_> One always needs an idea before doing anything.
21:55:07 <zzo38> mroman_: What game did you intend to write?
21:55:12 <mroman_> but I'm also designing a CPU for my university ;)
21:55:30 <zzo38> What CPU do you design for your university?
21:55:38 <mroman_> zzo38: I was thinking of Pong.
21:56:05 <mroman_> zzo38: It's actually a whole "computer system"
21:56:23 <mroman_> It's supposed to be a simplified "real computer"
21:56:36 <mroman_> for demonstration purposes.
21:56:55 <mroman_> It has a full cache and MMU emulation
21:57:25 <zzo38> What I wanted is a CPU with explicit caching/pipelining rather than being implicit.
21:57:47 <zzo38> I am not sure exactly how, but I think it would be a good idea.
21:58:01 <mroman_> If have to explictly cache data?
21:58:39 <zzo38> Yes, that would be one thing, I suppose.
21:58:54 <mroman_> Or due you just treat the cache as memory
21:59:06 <mroman_> but you have instructions to write from the cache to memory?
21:59:29 <mroman_> which would be roughly the same as having an internal RAM and external RAM
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21:59:40 <mroman_> like some microcontrollers have
21:59:50 <zzo38> I suppose you would have instructions to transfer between the cache and the external memory, and to transfer between the cache and registers.
22:00:23 <zzo38> Another idea I had is some instruction to swap between cache and microcode RAM.
22:00:55 <mroman_> as it is harvard architecture
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22:02:15 <mroman_> I don't really see why you'd want explicit caching
22:02:49 <mroman_> of course, for some microcontrollers it makes sense to keep often accessed data in the internal ram and not the external ram
22:02:51 <zzo38> I would want explicit caching and pipelining so that it can all be software-controlled with predictable instruction timings, as well as user-defined microcodes.
22:03:26 <mroman_> which means you explicitly programm "caching"
22:03:43 <mroman_> Hard-Realtime Constraints?
22:04:19 <mroman_> That I accept as an argument :)
22:04:42 <mroman_> I'm not well informed about real-time CPUs
22:04:58 <mroman_> if there are any specifically designed for that
22:05:14 <mroman_> you could argue that old CPUs with predictable cycles per instructions are more or less real-time-safe
22:05:16 <zzo38> It may also simplify the implementation of the CPU somewhat, depending on how it is done, and allows software to figure out the best way to cache data for the application rather than the hardware to guess.
22:05:32 <zzo38> mroman_: Yes, it is one of the things I prefer about the older CPU designs.
22:05:57 <mroman_> If you have the assembler code you can make worst case timing analysis on the assembler code
22:06:07 <mroman_> it get's a little bit trickier with interrupt latency
22:06:14 <zzo38> And make it slow on purpose too if you want to.
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22:57:36 <int-e> gah, tab completion is evil. I should stop using it.
22:57:53 <zzo38> int-e: Is it? Not if you are careful?
22:58:17 <int-e> well, lamb<tab> completed to lambdabot rather than the intended lambdacat ...
22:58:36 <zzo38> Do you have a file named lambdacat in your computer?
22:58:39 <int-e> maybe I should pick a different name for my test bot :)
22:59:44 <Bike> elliott used to use mubot
23:00:36 <zzo38> What program are you using with tab-completion anyways? Different programs sometimes implement it a bit differently, such as Windows difference from Linux tab completion.
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23:01:28 <Taneb> Bike, clearly the next one is nubot
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23:11:56 <zzo38> I have made up the program which will provide two low-pass filters and one signal selects any fraction in between the two filters; one filter stops while the other one is running, or the effect of the audio on the filter and vice-versa is only partial and the other filter is the other part of the fraction. A triangle wave then is used to control this fraction, and the signal filtered with a fixed fraction is subtracted from it, to make the output.
23:12:05 <zzo38> Is this a known thing too?
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23:13:21 <FreeFull> Could you provide a sound file?
23:13:32 <zzo38> Yes, I could do so
23:15:42 <zzo38> Yes, just wait a minute
23:24:17 <zzo38> FreeFull: http://zzo38computer.org/csound/music/example1.wav (see example1.csd for the parameters)
23:28:08 <Taneb> What am I a hater of this time?
23:28:22 <FreeFull> zzo38: Do the filters alternate very quickly?
23:28:32 <Taneb> No. Merely a disbeliever
23:29:14 <zzo38> FreeFull: They alternate at the frequency of the triangle wave (the p4, p5, and p6 correspond to the fourth, fifth, and sixth parameters on each line of the <CsScore> block in the input file)
23:29:31 <zzo38> See ../csoundextraopcodes.c to see what "mixlpf" does.
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23:53:29 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: golddfish breeding is kind of messed up sometimes. <Phantom_Hoover> it seems to consist mostly of "how much can we fuck up a goldfish and still be able to breed it"
23:53:34 <HackEgo> 1133) <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: golddfish breeding is kind of messed up sometimes. <Phantom_Hoover> it seems to consist mostly of "how much can we fuck up a goldfish and still be able to breed it"
00:00:33 <oerjan> <Taneb> After an incident a couple of weeks ago <-- ic, *opens caffeinated soft drink*
00:01:19 <oerjan> this + the pain killers better remove my headache.
00:02:35 * oerjan imagines Taneb running frantically around on a caffeine high
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00:05:10 <Taneb> oerjan, it was more that I was visibly shaking and felt like my entire digestive system was trying to go on holiday
00:05:38 <zzo38> I am typing the Dungeons&Dragons game recording; not finished yet but will be soon, hopefully.
00:05:42 <Taneb> And then I stopped visibly shakin
00:05:51 <oerjan> Taneb: ok i know that second part. if i take more than about two cups of coffeee.
00:05:56 <Taneb> And couldn't stop smiling and giggling
00:06:16 <Taneb> And I couldn't feel my hands
00:06:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:06:33 <oerjan> how f much did you drink
00:06:51 <Taneb> Two pints, on an empty stomach
00:07:10 <HackEgo> 473176473/500000000 (exactly 0.946352946)
00:07:13 <zzo38> I managed to get an extra 300 XP for an idea I had about what to do next, just at the end of the session, and this was just enough to advance to 27 ECL (20 HD), so maybe these two new spells might help a bit.
00:07:32 <oerjan> was it sugary as well, i expect that doesn't help
00:07:37 <olsner> hmm, that's only like half a 2l bottle
00:07:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:07:40 <myname> i do think, writing java makes me urinate more
00:07:54 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, it was coca cola
00:08:01 <Taneb> Very sugar, much caffeine
00:09:01 <Taneb> I drink coke zero now when I haven't eaten much
00:10:38 <myname> it may be SOAP, though
00:11:08 <shachaf> oerjan: did you logread the whole space nonsense from last night
00:11:25 <oerjan> shachaf: i quite firmly skipped most of it.
00:11:50 <shachaf> imo read it and gimme your insights
00:12:00 <olsner> was that the thing about infinite velocity black holes and whatnot?
00:12:02 <oerjan> my concentration would never last through all of that these days.
00:12:22 <doesthiswork> It's always disappointing when someone cites the laws of form seriously.
00:12:23 <oerjan> olsner: no, it was chu spaces and category theory and adjunction and a horrible mess
00:13:38 <oerjan> i've never read the laws of form, but i vaguely recall some claim it's just an encoding of propositional logic or thereabouts.
00:14:14 <Taneb> Hang on, I've got a vague feeling I may have triggered this discussion
00:14:40 <Taneb> That's what I meant
00:15:27 <Taneb> OK, I sincerely apologize
00:15:58 <oerjan> Taneb: you know, don't start going all Sgeo on worrying about what you're doing tdnh
00:16:34 <Taneb> oerjan, weren't you banned from variants of "hth"?
00:16:44 <Taneb> Also I don't know what you mean by tdnh
00:16:45 <oerjan> yes, but i have cheating methods
00:16:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
00:17:13 <oerjan> (that was me forgetting to use it)
00:17:15 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
00:17:54 <oerjan> Taneb: i wasn't banned, elliott wrote a censoring script.
00:19:18 <Taneb> I could do with an ice cream
00:19:35 <Taneb> I wonder if a) the petrol station next door is open and b) sells ice cream
00:19:49 <zzo38> What kind of ice cream did you want?
00:19:51 <oerjan> hm i was going to complain to Gregor that the logs broke the windows zooming shortcut, but then i realized i'd been pressing the neutralize zooming shortcut instead
00:20:01 <Taneb> zzo38, vanilla, preferably
00:20:07 <oerjan> (also that he'd just laugh evilly at me)
00:21:06 <oerjan> i dunno, it happened before i got here
00:21:53 <Taneb> olsner, I am not a huge fan of tar flavoured ice cream
00:22:31 <oerjan> i'm suspicious on that last word, google translate
00:23:44 * oerjan just realizes that fizzie might be the only active one here who's been here longer than him...
00:26:40 <Taneb> Right, I'm seeing if the petrol station's shop is open
00:26:52 <oerjan> good luck on your quest
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00:28:15 <HackEgo> 345) <oklofok> what would you ever need petrol for <oklofok> newsflash: it doesn't actually taste that good \ 346) [on petrol] <ais523> oklofok: it's actually poisonous, so I advise against drinking it <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, also contains benzene, my carcinogen of choice.
00:30:08 <oerjan> kmc: you should swat shachaf, he made a drugz joke not involving you
00:30:41 <oerjan> or he could if he weren't hopelessly idle
00:31:41 <shachaf> he's in korea and/or japan right now
00:32:05 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> based on comments he made in #esoteric, he used to be with some if he disliked <-- i'm too noise sensitive to have flatmates, period.
00:32:40 <oerjan> samsung digital city, the small autonomous state
00:33:55 <Taneb> Well, that ice cream was certainly ice cream
00:34:12 <oerjan> "Samsung Town is twinned with Disneyland Paris and Sony World (Tokyo, Japan). The "twinning" is only symbolic and has no legal significance."
00:34:39 <Taneb> I don't think twinning has any legal significance in any case
00:35:07 <oerjan> i recall trondheim has a twin city in israel and also one in palestine.
00:35:38 <oerjan> as well as several in europe
00:36:22 <oerjan> wait, that's friendship city, but presumably essentially the same thing.
00:37:19 <oerjan> Taneb: i suppose it might not look good if samsung and sony had an antitrust case against them...
00:40:35 <Taneb> "The streets had been laid down, but no houses were built; merely a row of cardboard boxes housed the first few residents who had migrated east from the slums of Ashburton to enjoy a better standard of living, only to be bitterly disappointed with the estate agents who promised milk and honey but instead delivered a mosquito infested swamp. The Ashburton immigrants, while disappointed all agreed that the swamp was a major step up from their former homes."
00:40:51 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> my sleep schedule is not actually random, but I'm not convinced it compresses well
00:40:55 <HackEgo> 1134) <ais523> my sleep schedule is not actually random, but I'm not convinced it compresses well
00:42:08 <Taneb> oerjan, from the Wikipedia page of the suburb I lived in when I lived in Australia
00:42:48 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Waverley,_Victoria
00:44:46 <oerjan> monash, the ancient grounds of agora nomic
00:46:28 <Taneb> I could have met the founders of agora nomic!?
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00:48:22 <oerjan> Taneb: well Steve i suppose.
00:49:41 <oerjan> agora looks disturbingly quiet.
00:55:41 <HackEgo> [U+2122 TRADE MARK SIGN] [U+0022 QUOTATION MARK]
00:56:06 <oerjan> very useful, this command
00:56:48 <oerjan> <prooftechnique> Wolfram Language will be the last programming language we ever need™ <-- i assume because it will cause the end of the world somehow.
00:57:47 <Bike> `unicode TRADE MARK SIGN
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01:08:30 <oerjan> `unicode REGISTERED TRADE MARK SIGN
01:08:50 <oerjan> `unicode REGISTERED SIGN
01:14:54 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+24D2 CIRCLED LATIN SMALL LETTER C]
01:19:40 <oerjan> `run unidecode Ⓒ #oh no, shachaf is onto me
01:19:42 <HackEgo> [U+24B8 CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C]
01:20:02 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ print u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode
01:20:08 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ print u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode
01:20:30 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover.......................................................................
01:20:56 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ print u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode
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01:35:28 <Sgeo> /nick LordEnglish
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01:38:18 <oerjan> NOOO LAMBDABOT, IT'S A TRAP!
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01:42:31 <int-e> @let fibs = fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
01:42:37 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
01:43:08 <myname> i know the 0:1:zipwith-way
01:43:25 <int-e> > scanl (+) 0 [a,b,c]
01:43:59 <shachaf> myname: Isn't it more fun to figure it out yourself?
01:45:23 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
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01:47:44 <lambdabot> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (...
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01:54:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | The most corum, clargoint chait you could ever loofefl your slance in. | Magnus!!! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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02:02:28 <oerjan> CADD: FIX YOUR CONNECTION
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02:04:30 <Guest59952> oerjan: its not my connection, im fixing my .irssi
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02:10:01 <int-e> does CADD know about /reload?
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03:23:49 <doesthiswork> I've got a new book for the esoteric list http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0195079515/principiacyberneA/
03:27:59 <doesthiswork> Kauffman's recent work translates his biological findings to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_body_problem and issues in neuroscience
03:28:27 <oerjan> wait, your second line makes me suspect you are being sarcastic.
03:30:03 <Bike> heard enough bullshit like that in one life time thanks
03:30:24 <doesthiswork> I've actually read the book, it's interesting but not particularly meaningful
03:30:36 <Bike> oh, wait, kauffman. so he's not like, insane, just... right.
03:30:56 <oerjan> not insane, just right, sounds like a good place to be.
03:31:45 <doesthiswork> it points out that if you make the fitness landscap complex enough, fitness doesn't really matter
03:32:11 <oerjan> @djinn f :: Maybe (b -> Either a b)
03:32:21 <oerjan> @djinn Maybe (b -> Either a b)
03:32:32 <Bike> doesthiswork: like how
03:32:32 <oerjan> lambdabot: you're boring.
03:33:08 <doesthiswork> and that if you collect a set of more than K Boolean functions it is universal
03:33:09 <shachaf> oerjan: Your question is boring.
03:33:38 <doesthiswork> (by universal I mean you can construct any boolean function)
03:33:54 <oerjan> doesthiswork: that's technically incorrect.
03:34:04 <doesthiswork> and that is pretty much the entire 2 pound book
03:34:07 <oerjan> (see my beloved Post Lattice)
03:35:05 <Bike> well, that reminds me i should pick up some systems biology stuff.
03:35:15 <oerjan> hm i wonder if it _is_ possible to have a set of infinitely many boolean functions where none can be expressed in the others.
03:36:10 <doesthiswork> Kauffman wrote (January 2012) "No entailing laws, but enablement in the evolution of the biosphere," which aims to show that evolution is not law entailed, as is physics, and that, without selection, evolution enables its own future possibilities.
03:36:29 <oerjan> because all the classes are finitely generated, and you must be able to express the generators in finitely many of them, which means you can express everything.
03:36:46 <oerjan> however is there really an upper bound K...
03:37:20 <oerjan> well, technically _if_ you generate everything, your set has 5 which do it.
03:39:51 <Bike> oh, it's on arxiv.
03:40:13 <oerjan> doesthiswork: for each of the 5 maximal subclasses, find a function that doesn't belong to it.
03:40:37 <oerjan> the same function can work for more than one, so it doesn't have to be the full 5.
03:40:37 <doesthiswork> bike: can you recommend me some systems biology books or papers?
03:41:40 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1201.2069 yeah i don't know what the hell they're on about
03:41:40 <oerjan> that is, find (1) a function which doesn't send all 0 to 0 (2) a function which doesn't sent all 1 to 1 (3) a function which isn't monotone (4) a function which isn't linear/affine (5) a function which isn't self-dual.
03:42:18 <Bike> doesthiswork: i've been recommended http://www.amazon.com/dp/1584886420/
03:42:23 <oerjan> you will note that nand and nor don't do any of those, and so generate everything alone.
03:42:59 <doesthiswork> oerjan: thank you, now I know more than I did this morning
03:43:52 <Bike> the first one star review of that has some oter links, eheh
03:44:40 <doesthiswork> the university library has it, I'll take a look
03:45:58 <doesthiswork> oh wow, the abstract actually makes sense to me.
03:47:29 <doesthiswork> it says with physics you can predict the future at pretty well (some of the time). With biology who the hell knows
03:49:21 <oerjan> looking at the lattice diagram again, i cannot see any node other than the top which has 5 edges down - so it probably _is_ the case that if you have 5 functions none of which can be expressed in the others, they must generate everything.
03:50:25 <oerjan> although i'm not at the spot quite sure if each of the 5 classes misses a function that belongs to all of the others.
03:51:25 <Bike> constant zero, constant one, identity, ... i guess and and or would let you build xor and negation
03:51:41 <oerjan> in which case it would simply be impossible to find 5 such functions.
03:51:41 <constant> Bike: I refuse to identify myself
03:52:54 <Sgeo> I miss the List of Things That Don't Exist
03:53:28 <oerjan> Bike: your list includes nothing non-monotone yet
03:53:52 <oerjan> so you definitely cannot build xor and negation
03:55:16 <Bike> so... is that five functions that aren't complete
03:55:20 <oerjan> identity is assumed by default.
03:56:09 <oerjan> like, it's what you get if you start with a variable and don't use any functions.
03:56:33 <oerjan> so it's expressible without anything.
03:56:35 <shachaf> Sgeo: Like gruncheons and pritons?
03:57:23 <doesthiswork> bike: http://www.amazon.com/review/R7DHOCB2N9PYT/ref=cm_cr_dp_title/177-0981632-5731719?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0231075650&nodeID=283155&store=books
03:57:28 <oerjan> constant zero and constant one together take care of three of the classes, however.
03:57:47 <doesthiswork> Critics of reductionism have pointed to Kurt Goedel's 1931 "incompleteness theorem" (which shows that in any axiomatic formulation of, say, number theory there will be true theorems that cannot be established) as a contrary example, but this paradigm-shattering result has been largely ignored the scientific community, which has blithely persisted in its reductive beliefs.
03:58:12 <shachaf> http://english.lem.pl/home/bookshelf/how-the-word-was-saved
03:58:14 <Bike> doesthiswork: time to misunderstand everything at once
03:58:24 <oerjan> Bike: hm i think you _may_ have detected a flaw in my argument, anyway.
03:58:50 <Bike> brute force is the method of kings, oerjan
03:59:00 <shachaf> nolars, nightzebs, nocs, necs, nallyrakers, neotremes and nonmalrigers :'(
03:59:38 <Bike> "Why are living things alive? As a theoretical biologist, Robert Rosen saw this as the most fundamental of all questions-and yet it had never been answered satisfactorily by science. " god damn it people
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04:00:13 <Bike> "Since both the atom and the organism can be seen to fit that description, Rosen asserts that complex organization is a general feature not just of the biosphere on Earth-but of the universe itself."
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04:01:18 <Bike> "One of his results is to show precisely why physics (including molecular biology) has little to say about life (and non-life)."
04:01:56 <Bike> seriously jesus fucking christ unpredictability doesn't mean indeterminism
04:02:07 <shachaf> why are you reading this Bike
04:02:34 <Bike> because i guess i'm an evil reductionist somehow
04:02:40 <oerjan> Bike: hm i think my argument that (5 independent functions => generate everything) holds
04:04:17 <Bike> "He concluded, based on examples such as this, that phenotype cannot always be directly attributed to genotype and that the chemically active aspect of a biologically active protein relies on more than the sequence of amino acids,," and he's doing the "REVOLUTION: THING NOBODY ACTUALLY BELIEVES IS WRONG" thing that is so, so fucking irritating
04:04:33 <oerjan> because he(*)'s a sucker ((*) everyone)
04:04:34 <doesthiswork> this is really failing to convince me that there is anything to systems biology
04:04:48 <Bike> well it's not just this guy
04:05:05 <Bike> "Certain questions about Rosen's mathematical arguments were raised in a paper authored by Christopher Landauer and Kirstie L. Bellman which claimed that some of the mathematical formulations used by Rosen are problematic from a logical viewpoint. It is perhaps worth noting, however, that such issues were also raised long time ago by Bertrand Russel and Alfred North Whitehead" lol
04:05:15 <zzo38> Reductionism is a useful tool, but not always!!!
04:05:32 <doesthiswork> Dr. Rosen was one of those unfortunate scientists who worked on problems, that to the rest of his community were non-existent.
04:05:41 <Bike> pst i'm not really a sole reductionist
04:06:04 <oerjan> "REVOLUTION: THING NOBODY ACTUALLY BELIEVES IS WRONG" <-- you could make that into an onion headline
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04:08:00 <oerjan> i think it just needs an "IN SCIENCE" after the REVOLUTION
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04:09:28 <Bike> i mostly think of systems biology as being like this one mostly informal book i read tbh
04:09:41 <Bike> which was about cells-as-computers, which is the opposite of this rosen guy so fuck 'im
04:10:06 <doesthiswork> But he goes on and shows how the recursion in a function can be seen as constraints between (differential) equations, which he calls "chronicles".
04:12:28 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/dp/0300167849
04:12:31 <Bike> dunno if it 'counts'
04:12:34 <oerjan> hm i think maybe you _cannot_ have 5 boolean functions that cannot be written in terms of each other.
04:13:10 <oerjan> because if one is self-dual and sends all 0 to 0, it will automatically send all 1 to 1.
04:13:11 <Bike> goes over gene regulatory networks and protein stoichiometry equations and shit
04:13:18 <Bike> for non-scientists
04:14:51 <oerjan> so you cannot get a function that is in not in P_1 and yet in all the others. which means whatever function avoids P_1, avoids one of the others, and so you need at most 4 of them to avoid all the maximal classes.
04:15:14 <oerjan> meanwhile bike's example shows that you _can_ have 4, so this is optimal.
04:15:35 <Bike> just as i planned
04:23:56 <zzo38> According to this paper, the Pentagon once asked if nuclear bombs can be made to explode in the past.
04:24:59 <Bike> possibly my favorite 'systems' stuff is in ethology though. it's not really 'systems biology' but like lorentz had this adorable machine model made of waterwheels
04:30:29 <Bike> he actually built it at one point iirc
04:34:10 <Bike> i said ethology, didn't i
04:34:51 <doesthiswork> http://www.ace.gatech.edu/experiments2/2413/lorenz/fall02/
04:35:08 <doesthiswork> but this lorenz has waterwheels and everything
04:36:05 <Bike> that looks cool, actually.
04:36:22 <Bike> there's a double pendulum set up in one of the physics buildings, it's fun to fuc with
04:47:28 <doesthiswork> why is it that interesting things are also interesting to crackpots?
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04:52:32 <zzo38> I suppose because it is interesting in general.
04:53:54 <doesthiswork> AI is interesting but the AI channel here is a wasteland
04:56:52 <oerjan> the ais like to keep it that way >_> <_<
05:07:05 <shachaf> Is that what we're calling him now?
05:09:53 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
05:10:16 <oerjan> shachaf: no, we have no evidence that he is plural yet
05:17:38 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex.
05:19:30 <zzo38> 3rd of March of what year? In what timezone?
05:19:52 <Sgeo> Of the year 0/0
05:20:16 <oerjan> zzo38: i have always assumed it's every year.
05:20:30 <oerjan> and probably british standard time.
05:20:32 <Bike> and whatever timezone ais is in, probably
05:20:56 <oerjan> which is probably the same as UTC that time of year
05:21:33 <myname> so... what is metaplace sex?
05:22:40 <Sgeo> Two people repeatedly fainting without clothes
05:24:30 <Sgeo> That's how I implemented a 'sex' option in Metaplace: Caused the participants to loop the "fainting" animation
05:24:56 <myname> should i know metaplace?
05:25:13 <Bike> isn't it Yet Another Second Lifey Thing
05:25:31 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaplace
05:25:40 <Sgeo> Bike: yeah, in 2d, Flash-based
05:25:41 <myname> as long as there is no ncurses ui, i am not interested
05:26:07 <Sgeo> It died less than a month after I invented metaplace sex
05:30:13 <myname> i'd love to have something like snow crashs metaverse with a terminal interfacee
05:34:27 <oerjan> wait so the part about Sgeo inventing metaplace sex is _true_?
05:34:52 <zzo38> And what did ais523 invent, then?
05:35:07 <oerjan> zzo38: it doesn't say.
05:35:40 <Sgeo> He invented the ability to learn multiple esolangs at once. Isn't there that news article about him knowing 25 languages?
05:35:59 <zzo38> OK add that in, then.
05:36:25 <myname> just learn any bf derivate and you are way ahead
05:36:29 <Sgeo> No one said it was an accurate news article
05:36:34 <Sgeo> erm, misread you
05:37:29 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/sex/sex, thus killing it within a month/' wisdom/sgeo
05:38:08 <Sgeo> fwiw, the part about killing it within a month isn't true, it's correlation-therefore-causation fallacy
05:38:27 <Sgeo> It died within a month, but I didn't cause it
05:38:39 <myname> Sgeo: can you prove that?
05:39:20 <oerjan> myname: the entry was breaking #esoteric tradition with its accuracy.
05:40:41 <oerjan> Sgeo: we prefer to believe.
05:41:07 <Sgeo> `quote what sex looks like
05:41:09 <HackEgo> 313) <elliott> sgeo do you actually know what sex looks like i am just checking here <Sgeo> I think so
05:42:18 <zzo38> O, that is Sgeo, too. So I suppose it is related, then.
05:42:39 <Sgeo> Yeah, elliott said that in response to me talking about metaplace sex
05:45:12 <myname> so, did you make a language about virtual sex?
05:46:19 <kmc> sex can look like a lot of things
05:46:23 <kmc> that's one of them
05:46:27 <oerjan> interestingly, the only mention of "sex" on the wiki is Taneb's userpage.
05:46:49 <myname> maybe i should make a page only with the word sex in it
05:47:41 <oerjan> <oklopol> you make the awesomest palindromes, you don't need sex and you don't need sleep. you are a fucking superhuman :|
05:47:44 <oerjan> <oklopol> oh and you can transform into an elf
05:47:47 <oerjan> User:Oklopol (note: only one of these is true)
05:48:11 <ion> That palindrome sucked.
05:48:17 <oerjan> i think the "you don't need sex" is the true one.
05:48:34 <oerjan> i cannot tell whether oklopol believes it's the palindrome part, though.
05:48:36 <zzo38> Probably that is correct.
05:48:47 <myname> there is a great german palindrome i heard recently
05:48:51 <oerjan> Taneb has stated being asexual.
05:49:39 <oerjan> otoh maybe he's just on his way to the big breakdown.
05:52:06 <oerjan> "York student has psychic breakdown and starts fucking everything that moves, and some things that don't." you heard the headline here first.
05:52:28 <Bike> psychic breakdown? like carrie?
05:52:30 <oerjan> "York student has psychic breakdown, starts fucking everything that moves, some things that don't." you heard the headline here first.
05:52:58 <oerjan> Bike: wait what is the correct phrase.
05:53:24 <oerjan> "York student has nervous breakdown, starts fucking everything that moves, some things that don't." you heard the headline here first.
05:53:33 <ion> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P6h3xdZ34rE/ULVLrUmc3eI/AAAAAAAAZo0/JA2D-oN8Zjg/w506-h788/carrie_sriracha.jpg
05:53:38 <shachaf> ...Did this person just go through my old stackoverflow answer and add Unicode quotes everywhere?
05:53:51 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/posts/13538351/revisions
05:54:19 <zzo38> However, I can tell you what I invented at least; I invented matrix accounting (while sitting in an accounting class in school, having nothing else to do, trying to think of how to use complex numbers in accounting in a way that doesn't violate GAAPs; I concluded that this is impossible). Yes, you can make up lies about it if you want, I suppose.
05:55:17 <Sgeo> I seem to be one of only a handful of people who know how to do a certain thing with Varnish
05:55:25 <shachaf> *And* he moved punctuation inside quotes?
05:55:29 <myname> shachaf: i like how it states "typo"
05:55:32 <zzo38> What certain thing with Varnish?
05:55:53 <shachaf> myname: Well, apparently «`s -> (a,s)» was missing a `.
05:56:04 <Sgeo> Passing data computed in the VCL to ESI subrequests
06:00:12 <oerjan> is – in "world-passing" even plausibly correct?
06:01:04 <ion> My intuition says no, but you probably shouldn’t trust it.
06:01:41 <shachaf> I don't know if it's correct, but I don't like it.
06:02:05 <shachaf> I think I'll roll this back and add the missing ` myself.
06:03:18 <oerjan> same with error-prone, i guess.
06:05:20 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] [U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+2014 EM DASH]
06:05:39 <oerjan> changing -- to mdash is an improvement in my mind, though.
06:06:15 <shachaf> I didn't write - -. I wrote --.
06:06:28 <oerjan> you don't like _anything_, shachaf.
06:06:36 <shachaf> I liked it the way it was!
06:06:58 <oerjan> it's just the one thing that's definitely better in my mind, though.
06:07:28 <oerjan> and i'm neutral on the quote marks.
06:07:29 <shachaf> I think correct usage of "—" dictates that you don't put spaces around it.
06:08:12 <oerjan> shachaf: yeah wikipedia says you should use no spaces around mdash but spaces around ndash
06:10:28 <shachaf> Oh, he's actually changing semantic meaning too!
06:11:45 <shachaf> "and also quite error-prone (if we accidentally try to read too far into stdin, the program will just block until the user types more in)."
06:11:51 <shachaf> "and also quite error-prone. (If we accidentally try to read too far into stdin, the program will just block until the user types more in.)"
06:12:01 <shachaf> That's some sort of semantics, anyway.
06:12:39 <oerjan> it's a small detail, like all the rest.
06:13:27 <shachaf> ...Is he using an en-dash in "as–is"?
06:14:41 <oerjan> hey, i'm not actually stopping you from rolling back.
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07:02:21 * oerjan suddenly realizes that hangman must be hell to play in vietnamese.
07:03:26 <oerjan> _ _ _ (1 incorrect: ở)
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07:10:22 <oerjan> is korean that bad if you use "letters" instead of "characters"?
07:10:42 <oerjan> hm i guess you'd have the problem of where to place the _'s
07:10:57 <lifthrasiir> that's why we use only the initial letters (jamos, to be exact) in hangman-like quizzes...
07:11:09 <shachaf> copumpkin: Where were you yesterday when we needed your help with foo-spaces?
07:11:46 <lifthrasiir> oerjan, it therefore feels like a hangman but without vowels
07:12:22 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: hm and that would be hebrew or arabic
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07:14:12 * oerjan wonders if indic languages do the same thing as korean, since vowels are like "accents" there
07:15:44 <zzo38> I can think of a few possible ways to make up a variant of hangman game for languages having much more letters of alphabet, whether it is due to accents, or other purposes.
07:16:38 <oerjan> the first page of google hits for hangman game "hindi" makes me suspect they only use it as an english learning tool
07:17:28 <oerjan> i suppose i might need to know the hindi words to search for the real thing.
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08:09:58 <oklopol> i dead 'since vowels are like "accidents" there', and read quite a bit of history in case something would explain what on earth you mean.
08:18:00 <mroman_> Need some suggestions for weird instructions
08:18:11 <mroman_> but I'm always looking for other ideas :)
08:19:52 <Bike> mroman_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer#Instruction_set definitely CCS
08:22:06 <Bike> or how about 'execute instruction in register'
08:23:37 <mroman_> as I have 16bit Registers and the longest instruction is two bytes
08:24:38 <Bike> maybe something really silly, like have a register for how much the instruction pointer moves each cycle
08:24:41 <Bike> execute code backwards
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08:26:06 <Bike> good for debugging! or reliving the days of barrel memory
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08:40:41 <mroman_> I think I'm going to add Rational Number Support
08:40:53 <Bike> i don't know if you're going for "weird instructions" as in crazy dumb shit or what though
08:41:09 <Bike> rationals in hardware?
08:42:03 <mroman_> 8bit Quotient, 8bit Denominator
08:42:24 <mroman_> Bike: Not really "crazy dumb shit"
08:42:31 <mroman_> just "crazy but still useful shit"
08:42:34 <Bike> damn but i like the barrel thing :(
08:43:14 <Bike> i guess rationals aren't too hard though, mostly you need gcd right
08:43:14 <mroman_> Since I don't have barrel memory reversing the control flow
08:43:20 <shachaf> i was in a barrel once for a play
08:45:00 <Bike> i guess it depends on what the processor's for. i mean presumably the vax had that evalpoly thing for a reason.
08:45:29 <Bike> possibly just because horn evaluation is super easy but w/e.
08:48:18 <mroman_> What's that thingy called in english
08:48:45 <Bike> "reducing a fraction to lowest terms"
08:49:03 <Bike> or just "reduction" i guess.
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08:49:08 <Bike> sounds good to me!
08:49:22 <mroman_> One has to do that manually
08:49:41 <mroman_> because it's probably slow if the CPU does it automatically all the time
08:50:53 <Bike> i uh, dont' think i've ever cared about speed when i was using rationals, really. dunno how good the algorithms are.
08:51:04 <Bike> plus like, when i use rationals i usually want infinite precision...
08:51:09 <mroman_> Although with 8bit/8bit I don't have a sign flag
08:51:30 <Bike> so i'm really wondering the use case here i guess?
08:51:32 <mroman_> unless I treat both 8bit values as signed 8 bit
08:52:40 <mroman_> Bike: To allow < 1 pixel calculations
08:52:50 <mroman_> i.e if you wan't to move 1/10 of a pixel per frame
08:53:04 <Bike> mm, don't you usually use fixedpoint for that
08:53:09 <mroman_> You could also do that with integers
08:54:24 <mroman_> (It's a processor for some weird game console I guess)
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08:55:20 <Bike> suddenly wonders how that one snes coprocessor on... starfox? worked
08:56:09 <Bike> dunno. let it 3d render.
09:00:09 <kmc> hangul is the best
09:01:11 <shachaf> is it a many-appendaged creature for the korean version of hangman
09:01:25 <oerjan> that would explain things.
09:01:48 <kmc> shachaf: see one of the many benefits of hangul is that you can't mis-parse a word into syllables like that
09:02:10 <shachaf> kmc: i know, hangul is p. good
09:02:18 <kmc> glad u agree
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09:54:27 <oerjan> Taneb: hi did you know the esolang wiki's sole mention of the word "sex" is on your user page hth
09:57:34 <ais523> I also didn't know that
09:58:00 <Taneb> It's almost ironic
09:58:04 <fizzie> Clearly time for the "Sex" language, eh? (It's a brainfuck derivative with lewd words replacing the instructions.)
09:58:12 <Taneb> In that way that makes people think it's ironic but really not at all
09:58:23 <Taneb> fizzie, there's already at least one language that is almost exactly thaty
09:59:03 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuckfuck
09:59:31 <int-e> ah, 'sex' was too short for that one.
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10:08:23 <int-e> "[Ook] represents the first, although unfortunately not the last, in a long line of trivial Brainfuck command substitutions." Amen. ("Look, I came up with 8 tokens and now I'm the creator of an esolang!")
10:09:43 <int-e> (whitespace deserves a honorable mention though)
10:10:00 <mroman_> I hate brainfuck derivatives with an exact 1:1 mapping to brainfuck
10:11:53 <myname> int-e: i thought of a whitespace derivate with zero width non-breaking space and zero width space
10:16:46 <int-e> I guess one could play with control characters like U+202A (left-to-right) and U+202B, too.
10:16:59 <mroman_> are there matrices with only integers whose inverses also consist solely of integers?
10:17:04 <mroman_> except for the identity matrix
10:17:04 <int-e> but it's sort of boring.
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10:17:40 <int-e> mroman_: of course. A big class is all the triangular matrices with 1 on the diagonal.
10:17:50 <myname> int-e: yeah, the only interesting part is you had to use a hex editor to write
10:18:18 <int-e> myname: ordinary brainfuck + some trivial sed, awk or perl.
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10:18:20 <mroman_> The inverse of 2x2 has a factor of (1/(ad-bc))
10:18:36 <mroman_> So I guess a,b,c and d must all be multiples of (ad - bc)
10:18:51 <int-e> ad-bc = 1 is not that hard to satisfy
10:21:06 <int-e> You can start with the identity matrix and then swap rows, columns, or add a multiple of a row or column to another row and column; finally you may negate rows and columns.
10:21:17 <mroman_> "Singular matrix, a matrix that is not invertible"
10:21:28 <mroman_> so not every Matrix with ad-bc=1 is invertible
10:22:24 <mroman_> I accidentally did ad-bc = 0
10:22:34 <mroman_> which is exactly the criteria for it not being invertible
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10:25:32 <int-e> for the sake of completeness: ad-bc = -1 is also allowed
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10:36:24 <oerjan> <int-e> (whitespace deserves a honorable mention though) <-- whitespace is not brainfuck-based.
10:39:02 <oerjan> mroman_: ad - bc is also known as the determinant of the matrix.
10:39:32 <oerjan> and yes, integer matrices with det M = +-1 have integer inverses.
10:42:47 <oerjan> that's if and only if, actually, because the inverse as determinant 1/det M which must be an integer for M^-1 to have integer entries.
10:43:45 <int-e> oerjan: oops. thanks!
10:45:12 <mroman_> But only integer matrices with M = +=1 have integer inverses.
10:45:36 <mroman_> That's at least what my math tells me
10:45:48 <oerjan> that's what i am saying!
10:46:13 <mroman_> which yields to 1 = x/(bc - ad)
10:51:04 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjugate_matrix#Inverses
10:52:04 <oerjan> "From this formula follows one of the most important results in matrix algebra: A matrix A over a commutative ring R is invertible if and only if det(A) is invertible in R."
10:52:32 <int-e> mroman_: your notation is off though; (ad-bc) | a. (The symbol | can be read as "divides").
10:52:37 <oerjan> note that +-1 are the invertible elements in the ring Z of integers.
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11:26:07 <mroman_> int-e: I know nothing about math notation :)
11:27:40 <mroman_> Luckily converting between binary and hexadecimal is still considered by my university to be a very difficult task for students
11:28:09 <mroman_> so my lack of math skills does not matter
11:30:55 <mroman_> Do any of you guys know the C167?
11:35:16 <mroman_> anyway... to make a point short: it's apparentely hard to read specs and find out how to figure out the physical address of stuff
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12:00:51 <oklopol> "From this formula follows one of the most important results in matrix algebra: A matrix A over a commutative ring R is invertible if and only if det(A) is invertible in R." from that formula, the "if" certainly follows, for the other direction i guess you need to extend to commutative ring to a field or something?
12:01:32 <oklopol> and then because there's an inverse if it's nonzero and inverses are unique, the only if follows
12:02:08 <int-e> oklopol: if A is invertible in R, then det(A) and det(A^-1) are both in R, and their product is one, so the determinant is invertible in R.
12:02:57 <oklopol> i'm just wondering why it follows from that formula
12:03:36 <int-e> det(A)*det(A^-1) = det(A*A^-1) = det(I) = 1 is an instance of that formula
12:03:38 <oklopol> like you said i guess, take the determinant from both sides
12:04:10 <oklopol> apparently it's explained right after
12:04:59 <oklopol> "<int-e> det(A)*det(A^-1) = det(A*A^-1) = det(I) = 1 is an instance of that formula" how is it an instance of that formula?
12:05:20 <oklopol> (although i'm not sure this question is very useful)
12:06:14 <oklopol> the formula was "A adj(A) = det(A) I"
12:07:34 <oklopol> my point is that indeed it should follow from that formula that A has an inverse in an extension of the ring where there is an inverse for det(A)
12:08:32 <oklopol> and err... okay dunno. maybe i should forget about this.
12:11:37 <Taneb> Ikea donated more to the Philippines recovery effort than China
12:12:43 <int-e> Maybe Ikea is the larger country ...
12:16:15 <int-e> oklopol: I think you're right, it's not *that* formula; at least every argument that I see for invertibility of A implying that det(A) is a unit uses det(AB) = det(A) det(B), and we've seen that this identity is all one needs.
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12:24:00 <oklopol> perhaps after seeing that there is little incentive to try much else, because that's sort of obvious
12:24:37 <oklopol> although i don't think it's quite trivial to prove det(AB) = det(A) det(B) (maybe because i've never tried to prove it myself and it's quite an index hassle in most proofs i've seen)
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12:27:20 <S1> What is the opposite of bootstrapping
12:28:49 <S1> nah I mean in terms of programming paradigms and stuff
12:29:33 <Taneb> So, bootstrapping here means building a program in small components, right?
12:30:40 <S1> I understand it as bringing things up to more abstract layers. as in from machine code via assembler to script languages to modern programming languages
12:31:33 <S1> Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping#Software_development
12:31:41 <Taneb> I don't think it really has an opposite, then, only an absence
12:31:50 <Taneb> Which would be writing an agda compiler in machine code, I guess
12:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> although i don't think it's quite trivial to prove det(AB) = det(A) det(B) (maybe because i've never tried to prove it myself and it's quite an index hassle in most proofs i've seen)
12:36:49 <oklopol> and how do you prove the determinant of AB is 0 iff that of A or that of B is?
12:37:45 <oklopol> or what do you mean by "singular"
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12:38:44 <oklopol> and how do you prove that if the determinant of A is not 0 and that of B is not 0 then also the determinant of AB is not zero
12:39:03 <oklopol> and how does that help with showing what we were trying to show anyway?
12:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> because if A and B are bijective then so is their composition?
12:39:28 <oklopol> okay i have a hunch you have no idea what we're talking about
12:40:23 <oklopol> we are trying to show that the invertibility of the determinant of A has something to do with the invertilibity of A
12:40:40 <oklopol> determinant not being 0 is _not_ what characterizes invertilibity of A
12:41:37 <oklopol> "A matrix A over a commutative ring R is invertible if and only if det(A) is invertible in R."
12:41:45 <oklopol> this is what we're talking about
12:43:45 <Phantom_Hoover> should you not call that something other than matrix then
12:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> like they call vector spaces over a ring modules don't they
12:45:11 <int-e> oklopol: To calculate det(A*B) one can use column operations on A (which are column operations on AB) and row operations on B to transform both A and B into upper triangular matrices, with the determinant unchanged or multiplied by -1 (from swapping rows or columns). This works over fields, e.g. Q. So now we have det(AB) = det(A)*det(B) over the rationals. We may regard the entries of A and B as variables, whence det(AB) =...
12:45:17 <int-e> ...det(A)*det(B) becomes an identity of two polynomials of degree n in 2n^2 variables. The identity holds over the rational numbers, which means that the polynomials must be identical. They also have integer coefficients. Therefore, the identity carries over to arbitrary commutative rings.
12:45:23 <oklopol> usually you say "matrix A over a commutative ring R" i guess, but then matrix after you've said it a few times.
12:46:19 <int-e> oklopol: one still needs to show that row and column operations preserve the identity, but that's *far* less messy than doing the full calculation for det(A*B).
12:46:31 <oklopol> let me think about that for a sec
12:48:46 <oklopol> i have only read proofs in the case of R and C anyway
12:49:00 <oklopol> C as in complicated numbers
12:49:33 <oklopol> i imagine row and column operations work pretty easily just from the permutations and signs and stuff definition
12:50:02 <int-e> I really like the idea of using polynomial rings for transferring results from Q to commutative rings.
12:51:47 <oklopol> that's probably not something i would come up with using in a proof, or at least i would then be like "does it really work like this daddy?"
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13:40:22 <Taneb> Is there a way to get a strike-through to render on text-based browsers, especially links2
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13:44:41 <mroman_> why won't lex accept my #include <string.h> o_O
13:47:27 <ais523> mroman_: is it in the wrong part of the file? lex files are divided into sections, it'd need to be in the section appropriate to C includ files
13:51:53 <mroman_> strdup is not actually in string.h
13:53:10 <ais523> it's kind-of trivial to write, though
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14:53:58 <fizzie> There are very few (if any) standard C library routines that'd return allocated memory, except for malloc/calloc/aligned_alloc themselves.
14:54:54 <fizzie> And strdup-except-without-allocating-storage is basically strcpy.
14:57:25 <kmc> an allocating sprintf would be nice... I think GNU or BSD has that
14:59:18 <fizzie> In both GNU and BSD, I believe.
15:00:54 <fizzie> GNU also has the 'a' flag for *scanf conversion specifiers, so that e.g. %as allocates a buffer of sufficient size, and returns a pointer to that.
15:01:28 <fizzie> (And getline, of course.)
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15:28:43 <olsner> ah, strdup is posix at least
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15:39:59 <nooodl_> fizzie: whoa. i never knew about those
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16:41:43 <mroman_> I still have enough space for 15 Instructions...
16:41:49 <mroman_> But I'm running out of ideas.
16:43:20 <Bike> evaluate generalized hypergeometric
16:44:26 <Bike> like count one bits?
16:44:59 <Bike> yeah, that's always nice to have
16:45:21 <Bike> how about findfirstset while you're at it
16:45:46 <mroman_> index of the first set bit?
16:46:24 <mroman_> but where would one need that?
16:47:30 <Bike> it's floor of log
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16:49:29 <FireFly> Apparently the linux kernel's scheduler uses it to implement a priority queue as a bitfield
16:50:11 <mroman_> (starting from right, starting from left)
16:53:45 <Bike> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1592232
16:54:17 <mroman_> although I currently have no matrix or vector instructions
16:55:37 <Bike> what kind of instructions would you have just for vectors? if not just do X in parallel i mean
16:56:18 <mroman_> also.. that paper seems to be paywalled
16:56:34 <Bike> huh, is that so.
16:57:23 <Bike> "Purchase article: $19" damn bloodsuckers
16:57:59 <Bike> i got a copy if you want it.
16:58:58 <mroman_> I'd like to have a look at it
16:59:17 <Bike> i think intel will survive one copied paper.
17:10:52 -!- oklopol has quit.
17:16:24 <mroman_> Bike: Well, I have three register sets
17:16:38 <mroman_> So that would easily allow 2x2 matrices
17:16:53 <mroman_> although 2x2 is probably not really helpful for 2D Graphics?
17:17:12 <mroman_> all 2D transformation matrices I know are 3x3
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17:21:09 <Bike> with such small matrices would you even get any advantage from a dedicated instruction rather than multiplies and adds, though
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17:21:55 <fizzie> You can multiple a point with a 2x2 matrix to rotate it, if you count that as "helpful for 2D graphics". (Maybe not.)
17:21:56 <Phantom_Hoover> <mroman_> all 2D transformation matrices I know are 3x3
17:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> can't you represent all euclidean motions of an n-dimensional space with an n+1xn+1 matrix
17:23:49 <doesthiswork> I think you need 4x4 for 3d rotation (quatranons)
17:24:04 <Bike> isn't the extra dimension to let you do translations (which aren't linear)
17:24:04 <mroman_> 2D transformations require 3x3?
17:24:13 <Bike> nb i don't know shit about grafix
17:24:27 <mroman_> It's the same as vector geometry
17:24:39 <mroman_> Instead of points you move pixels
17:24:42 <Bike> but i don't know projective geometry :(
17:25:13 <Bike> well, with 2x2 you can do any linear transform, i guess
17:25:21 <Bike> still not sure i see the computer-side point
17:26:38 <Bike> i mean matrix×vector is gonna be four mults an two adds no matter what, right.
17:27:19 <mroman_> I don't think you can do translations with 2x2 matrices
17:28:06 <Bike> no, you can't. translations aren't linear.
17:30:19 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freivalds%27_algorithm wow this is the easiest algorithm ever
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17:40:25 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
17:40:41 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__loop: 10.5
17:41:29 <mroman_> !bfjoust loop [-]<[+][>--[>+]]
17:41:32 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__loop: 9.1
17:42:20 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__loop: 10.4
17:42:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:42:45 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__loop: 6.8
17:44:42 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
17:44:53 -!- asie has joined.
17:44:53 <mroman_> !bfjoust saladdressing ++[[]+][>+][-]
17:44:57 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__saladdressing: 6.4
17:46:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_unfoog_suckiest_triplock_ever: 6.4
17:47:30 <mroman_> I thought it'd loop until it drops to zero
17:47:53 <mroman_> which should've prevented my from being killed
17:48:13 <mroman_> !bfjoust saladdressing [[]+++]
17:48:17 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__saladdressing: 6.4
17:48:47 <int-e> [] takes a cycle to detect the zero, and then it's been there for two cycles and you lost.
17:49:14 <ais523\unfoog> mroman_: it does do that, but it's a cycle too slow to avoid losing
17:49:37 <ais523\unfoog> this is intentional in the rules, that sort of program would be unbeatable if it actually worked
17:50:35 <mroman_> !bfjoust saladdressing >+++>+++>+++[]<+++[]<+++[]
17:50:39 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__saladdressing: 1.4
17:52:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:52:44 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>-)*9([-])*21
17:52:48 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 0.2
17:53:04 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>-)*9([-]>)*21
17:53:08 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 5.0
17:53:36 <mroman_> How can that be worse than [-]
17:54:13 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>->+)*4([-]>)*21
17:54:16 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 6.2
17:54:28 <int-e> !bfjoust ten (>+)*9([[-.]]>)*21
17:54:30 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_ten: 11.8
17:54:37 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>->+)*4([-]>[+]>)*11
17:54:39 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 8.2
17:54:49 <int-e> !bfjoust ten (>+)*9([[-]]>)*21
17:54:52 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_ten: 6.1
17:55:17 <int-e> !bfjoust ten (>+)*9([-.]>)*21
17:55:20 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_ten: 11.3
17:58:40 <int-e> [-] defeats [+] almost all the time, and [-] half the cases, I think.
17:59:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:00:14 <int-e> (but it's still interesting)
18:00:31 <ais523\unfoog> anyway, that's what I call a "probabilistic lock", I need to add it to the wiki
18:01:24 <ais523\unfoog> against [+] it forms a perfect lock 100% of the time; against [-] it forms a perfect lock 50% of the time, a detectable lock 25% of the time, and loses 25% of the time
18:02:16 <int-e> "detectable" meaning that [-][.this.code.runs.]?
18:03:00 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>--)*4>([-]..+>])*21
18:03:03 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 0.0
18:03:14 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>--)*4>([-]..+>)*21
18:03:17 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 6.3
18:03:22 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>--)*4>([-].+>)*21
18:03:25 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 6.3
18:03:47 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>--)*4>([-]->)*21
18:03:50 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 7.9
18:04:16 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>--)*4>([-]->)*22
18:04:19 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 7.9
18:04:21 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>--)*4>([-]->)*23
18:04:24 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 7.9
18:04:43 <mroman_> 22 should get me to cell 30
18:05:29 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>-->+>-)*2>([-]->)*22
18:05:31 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 9.5
18:06:04 <int-e> !bfjoust one >+[]<[-]
18:06:08 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_one: 6.2
18:07:02 <int-e> !bfjoust one >+[]<.[-]
18:07:06 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_one: 5.7
18:07:30 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>-->+>-)*2>([-][<]+[>]>)*22
18:07:33 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 1.7
18:07:45 <mroman_> [<] finds a non-zero cell, right?
18:07:46 <int-e> hmm. need two more?
18:08:03 <int-e> mroman_: no. it finds a zero cell, skipping over non-zeros
18:08:15 <int-e> !bfjoust one >+[]<..[-]
18:08:18 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_one: 6.8
18:08:22 <int-e> !bfjoust one >+[]<...[-]
18:08:25 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_one: 7.9
18:08:47 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>-->+>-)*2>([-][<]+[>]>)*220
18:08:50 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 1.7
18:09:07 <int-e> !bfjoust zero .[-]
18:09:11 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_zero: 9.8
18:09:12 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>-->+>-)*2>([-]<[<]+[>]>>)*220
18:09:15 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 3.5
18:09:19 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>-->+>-)*2>([-]<[<]+[>]>>)*22
18:09:22 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 3.5
18:09:51 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>-->+>-)*2>([-]<[<]+[>]>)*22
18:09:53 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 8.6
18:10:40 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad (>>-->+>-)*2>([-]<[<]-[>]>)*22
18:10:43 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 8.0
18:10:52 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad >(>>-->+>-)*2>([-]<[<]-[>]>)*21
18:10:55 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 5.2
18:12:37 <FireFly> !bfjoust pancake ->>>-->>+++>*10([-]>)*0
18:12:41 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_pancake: 0.8
18:13:55 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/DJaG MATLAAAAAB
18:13:55 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad >>->+([>]->[-])*30
18:13:58 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 5.3
18:15:03 <mroman_> why does that give you more points than my non suicid ones :(
18:18:07 <oerjan> i'm going to guess it's because .[-] can get a tie or even win against a fast attacker
18:18:50 <oerjan> while the other ones have a severe chance of going out of bounds
18:18:57 <fizzie> Apparently an X server is required for "matlabpool local" to operate correctly. Possibly because (from what I recall) the JVM thing is somehow tied to the "desktop" system.
18:21:12 <zzo38> What is "matlabpool local" supposed to do?
18:21:38 <int-e> !bfjoust zero (-)*128[-]
18:21:41 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_zero: 10.5
18:22:29 <oerjan> !bfjoust zeroer (-)*-1
18:22:34 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_zeroer: 11.5
18:26:10 <fizzie> zzo38: It's related to the MATLAB Distributed Computing Server, which is a system for parallelizing MATLAB code. It has a concept of a "pool" where the workers come from; "matlabpool open local 4" tells it to make up a pool that just involves running up to 4 workers on the local machine. (Other pools may distribute the work into nodes in a cluster, and so on.)
18:38:07 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad >+++>(>(+)*4[<---]+++)*1000
18:38:11 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 0.0
18:38:43 <ais523\unfoog> you have nothing but nonzero value between there and your flag
18:38:48 <ais523\unfoog> so you end up falling off your own end of the tape
18:40:30 <ais523\unfoog> you fall off your own end of the tape when the opponent unclears it
18:42:43 <ais523\unfoog> because I use 1-based indexing for BF Joust for some reason
18:43:58 <zzo38> I found something which is called SWIG says is for wrapping and interface generator for several programming languages, but it doesn't mention Haskell and SQL.
18:44:47 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad >+++>(>(+)*4[<---]+++>)*100([-]>)*21
18:44:50 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 1.6
18:47:44 <int-e> ais523\unfoog: but it needs a 3 on the tape - there is one in cell 2, but if that gets modified (and all bots on the ladder will eventually attack), then it trips over the left end very quickly.
18:48:57 <int-e> !bfjoust zero >+[]<<
18:49:01 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_zero: 1.9
18:49:27 <int-e> !bfjoust zero >+++[]<<
18:49:31 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_zero: 3.6
18:49:41 <fizzie> The definition of persistence, from #scheme@freenode: http://sprunge.us/SOgT
18:51:17 <int-e> aah. <chare> i was hoping you would do the work
18:51:20 <ais523\unfoog> fizzie: I remember reading somewhere that one of Blizzard's early RTSes, I think it was Starcraft, was delayed while they tried to reach feature parity with something that one of their rivals had demoed
18:51:43 <ais523\unfoog> and it turns out that their rivals didn't have the feature at all, the demo was just a video recording rather than something actually playing
18:52:35 <mroman_> why does [>+][-]> run over the tape?
18:52:43 <mroman_> [>+] should find a non zero cell
18:52:55 <mroman_> and then move to the next one
18:53:03 <fizzie> After the +, pretty much any cell is nonzero, so the loop goes on and on.
18:53:08 <ais523\unfoog> mroman_: [> moves to the next cell, + sets it to 1, ] goes back to the start of the program
18:53:19 <int-e> for [>+] to stop, the cell below the pointer must be zero.
18:53:35 <mroman_> how does one find a non-zero cell?
18:55:16 <myname> anybody here knows where to find this regex example of why ruby sucks at parsing with whitespaces?
18:55:34 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: well _did_ blizzard reach feature parity anyhow
18:55:51 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: yeah, they were the first to impl the features
18:56:57 <fizzie> I think that's called the "bait-and-switch".
18:57:43 <fizzie> (The "demo" of a nonexistent feature, that is.)
18:57:56 <oerjan> <fizzie> The definition of persistence, from #scheme@freenode: http://sprunge.us/SOgT <-- did they manage to ban him, alternatively did shachaf quit in disgust
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19:03:39 <fizzie> oerjan: I wasn't really following. My grep sees no bans, though no other signs after that 15th-day appearance either. Still, I'm sure that wasn't the last we'll see of them.
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19:06:14 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__nop: 6.5
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19:07:54 <oerjan> !bfjoust zeroest (-.)*-1
19:07:57 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_zeroest: 10.2
19:09:12 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad >+>+[]<<[+]
19:09:16 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 3.1
19:13:53 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad >+>+>+[]<[+]<[]<[-]
19:13:58 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 0.3
19:14:25 <mroman_> !bfjoust salad >+>+>+[]<[+]<[]<[-](>[-])*30
19:14:30 <EgoBot> Score for mroman__salad: 1.0
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19:17:03 <FireFly> fungot: hey, have *you* tried bfjoust?
19:17:03 <fungot> FireFly: ( i remember something like rest or tail). new hardware is required usually for games, its fpu ran much slower than realtime to figure out how
19:17:26 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think you'd really need new hardware for bfjoust.
19:17:26 <fungot> fizzie: these people really _are_ on crack. fnord::' demi-thread. if you have to code an attempt at adding " l'" to the wall with bug listings
19:18:50 <fungot> mroman_: and that's a neat new language
19:19:03 <mroman_> I always new all my languages were neat.
19:19:27 <mroman_> fungot: What about your languages?
19:19:27 <fungot> mroman_: the primary documentation for emacs is done.
19:19:58 <mroman_> fungot: I'd rather have vim...
19:19:58 <fungot> mroman_: i have a midland accent ( or in most cases it is best not to hang around those cobol programmers in their late thirties and early fnord
19:20:00 <FireFly> fungot: elisp isn't "your" language
19:20:01 <fungot> FireFly: that is the fucking point. i really appreciate it. as i type. how nice.
19:20:39 <FireFly> I'm not sure what point fungot is trying to make..
19:20:39 <fungot> FireFly: y " is not a great essay writer the sentence choices seem odd.
19:23:09 <int-e> fungot writes essays?
19:23:09 <fungot> int-e: so much about coding, as i've been giving them some stuff to do. you don't have to
19:31:01 <nooodl_> the sentence choices DO seem odd
19:32:56 <mroman_> how dare you question that
19:39:18 <doesthiswork> this is a funny quiz about undefined behavior in C http://blog.regehr.org/archives/721
19:41:53 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
19:42:11 <EgoBot> Score for doesthiswork_blah: 0.0
19:43:30 <EgoBot> Score for doesthiswork_blah2: 0.0
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19:44:14 <olsner> doesthiswork: I'm disappointed that some of the questions are about specific implementations rather than C
19:46:09 <doesthiswork> he said that no one uses the standard, they all use implementations of the standard so questions about implementations are more meaningful
19:47:41 <doesthiswork> for the kinds of things you need to watch out for
19:53:25 <oerjan> i assume that is why he made me fail question 5, the bastard.
19:53:59 <oerjan> of _course_ i'd know the answer if he'd said only actual implementations counted.
19:55:50 <fizzie> I remember reading that thing and finding a number of things to nitpick on.
19:57:05 <fizzie> Like in the explanation of Q4, it speaks of "promoting" an unsigned int to long, but that's (at least in nitpick mode) not a promotion, it's just part of the usual arithmetic conversions.
19:57:23 <olsner> it's a nice touch that the introduction with all those assumptions gets hidden when you start the quiz
19:59:03 <fizzie> The signedness of char wasn't in the introduction, anyway.
19:59:23 <fizzie> Oh, it says as much in the explanation.
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20:02:57 <fizzie> I also disagree with Q10 explanation, which claims that "other values can be safely left-shifted", while in fact no negative values can.
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20:05:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_unfoog_attack1: 3.8
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20:15:54 <shachaf> fizzie: Aw, I thought it would be about persistent data structures.
20:18:32 <fizzie> I also think Q18 is unambiguously wrong. It claims that, for int x, "(short)x + 1" is defined for all values of x, while in fact it's undefined, as acknowledged in the comments.
20:20:00 <fizzie> And the "I’ll stand by my answer since I’ve never heard of an LP64 compiler that doesn’t just truncate" cop-out in the comments is utter nonsense, given the "Make no assumptions about undefined behaviors" requirement of the introduction, and the way other questions (like overflowing a signed integer) are handled.
20:21:23 <fizzie> Oh, conversion to narrower integer was in fact implementation-defined? How weird. I guess in that case it's a little more defensible.
20:21:31 <olsner> I was thinking that if sizeof int == sizeof short, then (short)x+1 overflows if x+1 overflows
20:22:21 <fizzie> olsner: "sizeof (int) == sizeof (short)" is more clearly disallowed by the assumptions in the introduction, though.
20:22:54 <olsner> yes, that was before I figured out which assumptions I was supposed to be making
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20:26:46 <zzo38> Do you know of any free graphics plotting software with language bindings for calling from SQL?
20:27:10 <ais523\unfoog> there's a thread on comp.lang.c about whether "f() + f()" is defined behaviour for all int-returning functions f (when f itself always has defined behaviour)
20:27:25 <ais523\unfoog> anyone want to take a guess at the currently accepted answer?
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20:28:45 <zzo38> ais523\unfoog: It probably works for most functions on most computers, I would think; maybe there are some cases allowed by the C standard where this doesn't work but I don't know how obscure these are
20:29:45 <ais523\unfoog> the answer sees to be "it's always defined in C11; it's also always defined in C89 as of Defect Report 87 and C99 as of Defect Report 287, the actual text of the standards is silent on the issue"
20:30:18 <zzo38> O, so it depends on the standard.
20:30:33 <olsner> what happened to signed int overflows? are those not-undefined now?
20:30:50 <shachaf> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/tautologies.html
20:30:51 <fizzie> olsner: I think it's not "about that".
20:31:05 <fizzie> olsner: At least based on what those defect reports address.
20:48:11 <ais523\unfoog> yeah, C11 says that overflow is undefined, and unsigned operations cannot overflow
20:50:18 * oerjan is pretty sure olsner meant in the f(x) + f(x) context
20:51:00 <olsner> yes, that's what I was talking about
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20:52:35 <ais523\unfoog> bleh, are there any symmetrical binary operators that are defined no matter what their arguments?
20:52:51 <ais523\unfoog> bitwise operators aren't fully defined on negative numbers
20:53:07 <ais523\unfoog> + - * can all overflow, / and % can divide by zero
20:53:56 <ais523\unfoog> we can at least change the problem to "is f() + f() always defined if f() is always defined and returns an unsigned int?"
20:54:17 <olsner> or simply assume that f doesn't return something that causes an overflow
20:55:22 <zzo38> In LLVM, at least, I think addition and subtraction are defined to wrap around unless you explicitly specify that overflow is undefined, in which case it is undefined.
20:55:59 <ais523\unfoog> in Verity, there aren't signed versions of + - * because it's always two's complement and thus the unsigned versions work just fine
20:56:45 <ais523\unfoog> except in signed cast-to-fewer-bits, which is defined to simply take the low bits
20:59:38 <zzo38> Yes, that would work too (actually LLVM does the same thing; there is no separate signed and unsigned add command, although there are parameters to tell it to be signed or unsigned if you want overflow to be undefined)
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21:03:23 <zzo38> In Z-machine all arithmetic operators are signed and there are no unsigned versions. Overflow is supposed to be an error, but making it not error for addition and subtraction would help so that you can make address arithmetic.
21:05:40 <zzo38> But I did not think of division overflowing! Now I know. Therefore, DIV -32768 -1 S 0 (Frolg syntax) in Z-machine would also be error.
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21:24:55 <ion> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=195992856
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21:25:55 <fizzie> "Human Revolution" sounds like an appropriate name.
21:26:11 <fizzie> (Now everyone knows your Steam Name.)
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21:33:50 <fizzie> I'm sure they can do something dastardly.
21:33:52 <Taneb> THEY CAN STEAM YOU
21:33:54 <fizzie> Friendly you in Steam.
21:34:14 <fizzie> There's no "lye" in your friend, at least under normal circumstances.
21:34:20 <olsner> steamly you in friendship
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21:57:43 <Taneb> Oh god I watched like a whole anime this weekend and suddenly I'm noticing loads of people reblogging it on Tumblr
21:58:08 <Taneb> Puella Magi Madoka Magica
21:58:45 <quintopia> Taneb: it is quite a popular one yes
22:00:15 <Taneb> One of my friends tried to get me to cosplay it but then we realised how expensive that'd be
22:01:46 <Taneb> (really expensive)
22:01:52 <Taneb> (also I'd probably have to shave)
22:04:43 <Taneb> I already have a Jake English cosplay
22:04:49 <prooftechnique> http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/metal_gear_solid_v__big_quiet_boss_xd_by_zombiesandwich-d6lio0e-424x600.jpg
22:05:12 <Taneb> prooftechnique, I don't think I have the muscle tone for that
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22:42:49 <HackEgo> [U+003A COLON] [U+2639 WHITE FROWNING FACE] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS]
22:43:00 <fizzie> Oh no, some kind of recursive frown.
22:43:22 <fizzie> If you zoom and enhance, I'm sure there's more frowns where that came from.
22:44:38 <shachaf> > let zoom [a,b,c] = [b]; let enhance "☹" = ":☹(" in (enhance . zoom) ":☹("
22:45:23 <fizzie> Don't worry, I'm sure there would've been some kind of Unicode problem.
22:49:44 <nooodl_> `run echo 'zoom [a,b,c] = [b]; enhance "*" = ":*("; main = print ((enhance . zoom) ":*(")' | runghc
22:50:07 <nooodl_> * is practically a smiley face. if you squint
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23:25:22 <Taneb> I DON'T HAVE ANY MILK
23:25:49 <Sgeo> I despise CAOS, but there's still an interesting property. In one way, it's like REBOL
23:26:18 <Sgeo> a b c could be interpreted as a (b c) if needed
23:26:34 <Sgeo> setv name "my variable" 5
23:26:46 <Sgeo> setv takes a variable and an int and puts the int into the variable
23:27:00 <Sgeo> name "my variable" refers to the variable on the targ called "my variable"
23:27:20 <Sgeo> (targ is a piece of global state, blech, but the REBOL-like processing is still interesting)
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23:42:58 <Taneb> shachaf, IS IT FULL FAT
23:43:32 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/mpiling_data.jpeg
23:44:02 <shachaf> Taneb: IS THAT THE SAME AS WHOLE
23:44:11 -!- Oj742 has quit (Quit: irc2go).
23:44:41 <shachaf> Taneb: THAT'S WHAT IT SAID ON THE COW
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23:45:58 <Taneb> shachaf, CAN I HAVE SOME OF YOUR MILK PLEASE
23:46:29 <shachaf> Taneb: SEND ME A SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND I'LL POUR SOME MILK IN AND SEND IT BACK
23:47:01 <Taneb> shachaf, IS YOUR ADDRESS "SHACHAF, CALIFORNIA PROBABLY"?
23:47:56 <shachaf> Hmm, I bet you could figure out how to send mail to me.
23:48:52 <shachaf> Taneb: PLEASE ALSO INCLUDE CADBURY FLAKE
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00:16:01 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/ZTcgzOq.jpg
00:16:03 <kmc> canada.jpg
00:21:10 <HackEgo> danddreclist 44: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
00:26:37 <shachaf> zzo38: You should add a PDF file so I can view it from my browser.
00:27:13 <zzo38> shachaf: No, if you want a PDF you do it yourself.
00:27:30 <zzo38> (I don't have the program to print it to PDF)
00:27:33 <shachaf> zzo38: I think you want "starts laughing", not "stars laughing".
00:28:07 <zzo38> Thank you for noticing that mistake; I fixed it now.
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00:30:05 <zzo38> And now I found out that I need to fix dungeonsrecording.tex to support more than five levels of spells; the current implementation will try to put them all in one row, which doesn't fit on the page very well.
00:30:24 <Taneb> zzo38, help I'm starting to play D&D
00:30:55 <zzo38> Taneb: I cannot help you with too general requests like that.
00:31:17 <Taneb> I think I've made one of the hardest characters for a beginner
00:31:30 <Taneb> A freakin' pacifist
00:31:59 <shachaf> https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6466824/1/The-Pacifist
00:32:01 <zzo38> Well, make whatever character you want; that is OK. You can make a character which is difficult for you if that is what you prefer.
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00:59:03 <zzo38> I have been trying to find graphing software with language bindings for SQL, and cannot find some.
01:22:07 <zzo38> Why are there none?
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01:42:15 <zzo38> I could try to write one for PLplot
01:51:56 <quintopia> zzo38: matlab can talk to mysql servers
01:53:03 <zzo38> quintopia: Well I mean calling graphing software from SQL programs, in SQLite
01:53:15 <zzo38> I don't mean accessing SQL servers from other programs
01:54:36 <zzo38> It seems the most sensible way to me
01:56:00 <zzo38> That way you don't need to access it from other programming languages, if you have SQL data you can plot it by writing SQL queries, having aggregate functions that will plot the data they receive, and so on
01:58:32 <quintopia> an rdbms client is not and was never intended to be visualization software
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02:02:32 <ski> shachaf : nope
02:03:04 <zzo38> But SQL can import foreign functions too, like other programming languages can.
02:08:19 <zzo38> I want to be able to plot data that has been filtered and manipulated and stuff too, and grouped, and various other things that are done in an SQL query.
02:19:57 <zzo38> What I want actually is a SQLite extension library which provides aggregate functions to plot graphs of the data they receive.
02:27:09 <ski> <shachaf> ski: did you see the longversation about chu spaces in here yesterday
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03:03:36 <zzo38> O, I thought you don't want to die of chanting.
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04:45:14 <zzo38> How common is it for programs to use true to mean failure and false to mean success? In the Z-machine, the PRINTR instruction prints a string, followed by a line break, and then returns true. Due to this, the program I am writing uses true to indicate failure.
04:49:41 <copumpkin> 0 is a "nothing failed" return value for most processes
04:49:48 <copumpkin> which would also be considered false in most languages
04:49:57 <kmc> but not in shell script :)
04:50:27 <kmc> this is based on the notion that there's one way to succeed but many ways to fail
04:52:26 <Sgeo> I keep forgetting to post to SO
04:52:48 <Sgeo> Incidentally, if commercial support gives you a solution to something, is that supposed to be ... proprietary?
04:52:54 <Sgeo> Especially if others have similar questions?
04:53:30 <zzo38> Well, in the Z-machine, zero is still considered false and one is considered true
04:57:24 <kmc> doesthiswork: yes
04:57:57 <kmc> in Rust you used to be able to create a bool which is neither false nor true
04:58:00 <kmc> that... got fixed
04:58:21 <zzo38> (Although I suppose this isn't much more than a convention, since any actual instructions that test less/greater/equal/flags/etc just branch instead)
04:58:54 <doesthiswork> they refuse to be limited by your 1-dimensional thinking
04:59:13 <zzo38> (Also, routine 0 always returns 0, and the SAVE/RESTORE opcodes return 0 or -1 on failure, and other numbers on success.)
04:59:37 <kmc> doesthiswork: no
05:00:32 <kmc> zzo38: mmap(2) returns -1 rather than 0 for errors, because one could map a page at 0 but one couldn't map a page at -1 unless the page size is 1
05:00:53 <kmc> does POSIX allow a page size of 1? that would make so many things so much nicer
05:00:55 <doesthiswork> (this is the place to drop a "laws of form" reference)
05:01:27 <zzo38> kmc: Ah, OK, but I mean a function that returns a boolean
05:02:09 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose if it would be allowed, then it should be prohibited for the page to start at -1 in order for that to continue to work.
05:02:10 <kmc> also I was wondering the other day if there are programs which map the same pages 2 or 4 or 8 times so that tag bits in pointers can be used without needing to mask them out
05:06:18 <kmc> why wouldn't it?
05:06:54 <zzo38> I don't know how the page mapping works, so I wouldn't know much about it
05:07:11 <Bike> i don't think i understand this mechanism, explain?
05:07:15 <kmc> well, you would still have to mask when taking offsets or comparing pointers for object identity
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05:09:20 <kmc> Bike: you would map the same physical page at (e.g.) 0x10000 and 0x11000 so that a pointer into either region works the same, and then you can use that bit 0x1000 to store some associated information that can be accessed without dereferencing the pointer
05:10:15 <kmc> pointer tagging tricks are common but generally you have only a single mapping and so you need to mask off the tag bits first before dereferencing
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05:10:57 <zzo38> They don't seem to work necessarily so well on all computers necessarily, since they might operate differently.
05:11:08 <Bike> i've heard of having different regions for different types to avoid tagging but not that.
05:11:14 <zzo38> I do not expect to guaranteed to work it correctly.
05:11:29 <kmc> fun fact: 16 of the virtual address bits in a current AMD64 CPU are ignored and could be used for such tags without masking, except that the architecture explicitly forbids it
05:11:38 <kmc> for forwards compatibility reasons
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05:12:53 <kmc> questionable decision imo
05:13:49 <zzo38> Allocating different regions ahead of time and checking if the pointer is in range would seem to work more consistently, although then you need to fix the amount of available memory when the program is starting. (But I don't know if this would work on the "Future Systems" 128-bit processor and other really strange things)
05:14:06 <kmc> how hard would it be to have a "I don't intend to use more than 256 TB of address space" control flag
05:14:46 <kmc> there are a lot of people who need speeeeeeeeed and don't mind writing unportable code or using a nonstandard ABI
05:15:28 <kmc> another fun fact: ARM uses the low bit of the program counter basically as a tag to say whether it's in ARM or Thumb mode
05:15:49 <kmc> (instructions on ARM are at least 2-byte aligned)
05:15:55 <kmc> this is nice because function calls automatically save/restore that mode too
05:16:44 <zzo38> If you want to write non-portable codes, you could at least partially write them in assembly language, and/or use C preprocessor macros to detect what computer it is running on
05:17:28 <kmc> that is typically done
05:18:06 <zzo38> But if I am writing a program in C, I rarely want unportable codes anyways
05:20:21 <zzo38> Protected mode adds too many complications anyways, I think. Some of these things could still be done in simpler ways, and other things
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05:26:09 <shachaf> what's with people who have a television on at night making noise
05:26:22 <kmc> it's snowin
05:26:39 <shachaf> can there just not be such people in the world anymore
05:27:22 <shachaf> kmc: Yes, I've heard of such behavior.
05:27:53 <shachaf> I think maybe the Xbox did something like that?
05:28:10 <kmc> okay before it was snowing but now it's snowing like a motherfucker
05:30:06 <shachaf> i was just trying to sleep and now i hate all people within a 5km radius
05:30:55 <kmc> what did the xbox use it for
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05:33:45 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I'm thinking of something else.
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05:41:20 <shachaf> kmc: Ah. The Xbox 360 has 64-bit addresses but only 512MB of RAM, so the upper 32 bits are used as flags by the L2 cache.
05:41:36 <shachaf> E.g. whether memory is encrypted.
05:41:43 <kmc> that's physical address bits right?
05:42:07 <kmc> i recall that was used for some hax
05:42:30 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxjpmc8ZIxM was a nice talk about it.
05:44:13 <kmc> off to japan, ttyl
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05:49:51 <shachaf> kmc: i like how the bug was in the syscall handling code
05:53:38 <quintopia> anyone here feel like translating TAPASM to syntactically correct english?
06:04:18 <ion> A hospital room is the perfect place for the data center. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=196098420
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07:15:22 <shachaf> ski: Do you know lots of things about Chu spaces?
07:17:11 <ski> ran into them when looking at linear logic papers
07:17:44 <shachaf> Related to de Paiva's thing?
07:18:42 <shachaf> Do you know how I can relate them to (a) topological systems and/or (b) adjunctions?
07:20:11 <shachaf> Also, do you know anything about the category whose objects are categories and whose arrows are adjunctions?
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07:23:36 <ski> (Valéria de Paiva,Peter Wojtáš, whence "PV")
07:23:56 <ski> sorry, no details :/
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08:19:07 <mroman_> Bike: Execute In Register with an Execute in Register Instruction in the Register would be an endless loop
08:20:40 <oerjan> you mean never halt hth
08:21:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> (Now everyone knows your Steam Name.) <-- well all the 3 who visited the page.
08:22:13 <olsner> iirc, on s/390 the execute in register instruction doesn't accept another execute-in-register instruction
08:23:01 <oerjan> olsner: how non-orthogonal
08:23:28 <oerjan> (all instructions should be orthogonal to themselves, obviously!)
08:26:22 <olsner> there should be an ISA where instructions have 90 degree angles to each other... maybe call it a vector processor
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08:28:48 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> I DON'T HAVE ANY MILK <- ME NEITHER
08:29:08 <myname> wasn't there a language with stuff like "turn right"?
08:29:19 <oerjan> olsner: lambdabot has been kidnapped!
08:29:39 <oerjan> myname: Logo, also karel the robot
08:29:47 <fizzie> Many (most?) 2D languages have "turn right" too.
08:29:59 <myname> that's not what i meant
08:30:13 <myname> literally "turn right" as a command
08:30:15 <oerjan> fizzie: technically don't they have "turn in this direction i'm pointing"
08:30:32 <oerjan> myname: i _think_ karel the robot may have had that.
08:30:37 <myname> and if your instruction pointer is moving from top to bottom, you have to write one letter at a column
08:30:41 <fizzie> oerjan: A number also do it relatively. Like the Funge-98 ].
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08:31:25 <fizzie> (And I suppose you could argue that ">" is still "turn right" even though it's absolute, it's all about the definition of "right".)
08:31:27 <oerjan> myname: wat "one letter at a column"
08:32:17 <oerjan> hm actually it had turnleft and turnright is the first example procedure in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_(programming_language)
08:33:47 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/m5LlaE5D
08:34:00 <mroman_> ^- as of now. all 128 instruction are taken :)
08:34:05 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Alight
08:36:04 <mroman_> although I could make shl,shr use Reg[src] for how many shifts to be performed
08:36:32 <oerjan> myname: itym "per line"
08:38:32 <mroman_> better replace them with a generic bit manipulation instruction where the src register encodes what's to be done :)
08:41:48 <oerjan> <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/mpiling_data.jpeg <-- my new laptop is seriously sucky on dark pictures :(
08:42:28 <ion> The relevant part isn’t darkened.
08:43:10 <oerjan> putting full brightness on isn't enough, at the same time i need to put brightness on 50% not to hurt my eyes on ordinary black on white text...
08:43:35 <ion> Try adjusting the gamma.
08:44:17 <oerjan> i have no idea how. and all i could find about constract was claims about "laptops don't usually have it".
08:44:58 <ion> Try xgamma -gamma 1.2
08:45:40 * ion swats oerjan with a fish
08:46:32 <ion> @google windows adjust gamma
08:47:16 <mroman_> olsner: There really is a CPU that can decode an instruction in a register and execute it?
08:47:57 <ion> Perhaps Hitler requested that.
08:51:06 <mroman_> I thought one should only pull the Hitler card in a vigorous discussion one is about to loose because running out of useful arguments
08:51:21 <mroman_> and to possibly troll the opponent discusser.
08:52:31 <ion> That was a completely reasonable guess given that IBM did business with him.
08:54:21 <mroman_> Isn't that uhm... treason?
08:54:36 <mroman_> Seeing as IBM is probably an american or ukanian company
08:55:30 <oerjan> ion: thanks gamma helped
08:55:44 * oerjan tries with 1.5 for now.
08:57:15 <ion> oerjan: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php
08:58:08 <oerjan> oh 2.2 is the standard?
08:58:35 <ion> Don’t set the value to 2.2, set the value to whatever makes the bars say 2.2
09:00:23 <oerjan> mroman_: they _may_ have stopped in 1942 or so?
09:01:06 <mroman_> Yeah. But the war started 1939?
09:07:23 <elliott> mroman_: "ukanian" is somewhat liable to misreadsings
09:12:03 <mroman_> I can't get that theme out of my head :)
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09:51:33 <mroman_> ah well. I just reserve one instruction as a marker for a secondary instruction set
09:51:42 <mroman_> that'll give me another 128 instructions once I need them
10:01:03 <oerjan> <shachaf> what's with people who have a television on at night making noise <-- devil worshipers hth
10:03:10 <oerjan> elliott: plz take back lambdabot this new guy is obviously not up to the responsibility thx
10:08:12 <oerjan> shachaf: the same goes for people with barking dogs
10:08:41 <oerjan> see: my neighbor in some not entirely determined direction
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10:39:06 <mroman_> I let streams run in background while working
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10:58:41 <fizzie> "IEEE's core purpose is to foster technological innovation and excellence for the benefit of humanity."
10:58:47 <fizzie> Oh, I thought they were in it to make money.
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11:03:53 <HackEgo> darklust: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:05:11 <darklust> I'm here for brainfuck and brainfuck accessories
11:05:36 <oerjan> your nick made me suspicious :P
11:07:46 <int-e> poor, abused little thing.
11:07:56 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
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12:05:45 <Bike> mroman_: so's jump rel 0
12:07:26 <int-e> fizzie: But who's looking at money when humanity is at stake?!
12:09:30 <int-e> Hmm, this quote that I read yesterday seems related somehow: "It is not heartless to say that if every human life is actually priceless, then it follows that there will never be enough money."
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12:40:22 <mroman_> Bike: Yeah. But that's a different loop :)
12:41:01 <mroman_> execute in register would produce a loop inside the execution circuitry
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12:43:50 <mroman_> depends on the implementation of course
12:49:22 <fizzie> I remember there being some debate on the corner cases of the semantics of Funge-98's "k" instruction, which repeats the next instruction N times.
12:53:54 <Deewiant> "some debate" is an understatement
12:57:51 <int-e> ooh! I guess I can ask a similar question for x86: what happens if a rep stosb modifies the rep or stosb opcodes?
13:01:34 <Deewiant> According to http://www.woodmann.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-12442.html "when an interrupt is generated, CPU stops executing overwritten REP STOS/MOVS"
13:05:00 <int-e> Deewiant: nice. can you parse this? "meanwhile, some CPU have a bug. they executes CLD commands _before_ overwritten REP STOS/MOVS will be stopped or finishes. as result, REP STOS/MOVS changes the direction and hits the memory not supposed to be written."
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13:06:28 <Deewiant> int-e: Seems mostly clear except that I don't know where the CLD is coming frmo
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13:09:09 <int-e> ok, I guess it's just too weird to really believe :)
13:11:22 <boily> good unbelievable morning!
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16:47:15 <Slereah> What the hell is the .stack header supposed to be in 8086?
16:47:52 <Slereah> I can't seem to find a tutorial that actually says what it does
16:47:53 <int-e> define the stack size?
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17:28:46 <ruddy> THAT'S WHAT IT SAID ON THE COW
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17:44:35 <ruddy> your IP is showing
17:44:53 <shachaf> who's ruddy and why is it quoting me
17:44:54 <ruddy> day is in his late 20s
17:45:08 <Slereah> If register access is faster than memory access, why are there so few of them?
17:45:25 <Koen_> I thought register were memory
17:45:26 <Slereah> Is it a problem of price, complexity?
17:45:33 <Slereah> The fear that they would go unused?
17:45:45 <Slereah> They are, but not RAM memory or disk memory
17:47:13 <Koen_> @tell boily I moved to paris but there was not much to do there until tuesday 19th, november, so I kept moving back and forth between paris and the suburbs and most of the time I left the computer at the other place
17:47:41 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hierarchy
17:47:41 <lambdabot> Title: Memory hierarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17:47:50 <fizzie> ruddy: Your computer may be broadcasting an IP address!
17:48:21 <shachaf> fizzie: THAT'S WHAT IT SAID ON THE COW
17:48:36 <Slereah> Is "expensive" in price or in electricity?
17:48:56 <shachaf> fizzie: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/shachaf.png
17:49:24 <fizzie> shachaf: Those pictures are the best.
17:49:55 <Koen_> Slereah: tell me more
17:50:14 <Slereah> I wonder what's the highest number of registers on a processor
17:50:14 <Koen_> about you being in Paris!
17:50:38 <Slereah> To do some computer school thang
17:50:46 <shachaf> Slereah: http://people.freebsd.org/~lstewart/articles/cpumemory.pdf probably has good answers to your questions.
17:50:56 <Koen_> what's the name of the school?
17:51:11 <shachaf> It's more than just an issue of expensive.
17:51:15 <Koen_> I've got a friend there
17:51:19 <Slereah> LET'S MAKE A GIGABYTE OF REGISTERS
17:56:48 <boily> back from lunch, and I haven't moved to Paris.
17:59:51 <boily> I went to Paris once, ten years ago. can't say I remember much of it.
18:01:03 <metasepia> CYUL 181700Z 22028G38KT 30SM BKN055 10/02 A2941 RMK SC7 SLP959
18:02:27 <Koen_> when foreigner friends come to paris they all tell me it's a beautiful city and I'm lucky to live there... all I see here are the unfriendly people, the cigarettes and other trash scattering the floor, and angry drivers
18:03:50 <mrhmouse> Koen_: I think that's the same for many (if not all) major cities
18:04:20 <Koen_> well, i went to Koln and Bonn in germany during the summer and it was sooooo clean
18:04:43 <Koen_> and London is much much cleaner than Paris
18:04:58 <Koen_> and people there don't drive with their right hand stuck to the horn
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18:13:17 <fizzie> I remember being envious of the river, in Paris.
18:13:26 <fizzie> But that extends to any city with a river, which is quite many of them.
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18:13:59 <Koen_> yeah hmmmmmm I wonder why people keep building cities next to rivers
18:14:12 <Koen_> like they want the water or something
18:14:22 <boily> better than next to a river, on an island in the river!
18:14:23 <fizzie> It's just that we don't have one here, and for some reason it feels lacking.
18:14:42 <fizzie> At least anything you'd count as a proper river. I mean, there's some water.
18:15:18 <Koen_> how about hijacking a neighbouring river?
18:15:26 <fizzie> I'm not sure how we'd carry it.
18:16:11 <fizzie> http://goo.gl/maps/fAFdU like there's that one little thing but it's there on the wrong side of the city and all.
18:16:36 <Koen_> is it me or have you got a whole ocean?
18:17:06 <fizzie> It's not much of an ocean. And anyway, it's clearly not a river.
18:17:33 <fizzie> I'm sure that if I lived in a city with a river, I'd be disappointed with it and want an ocean instead.
18:21:29 <fizzie> Speaking of cities in Europe, Berne (in Switzerland) seemed like a nice place, based on a very short visit. (There's even a river.) Maybe it doesn't quite count as a "major city".
18:22:56 <Koen_> ouh, the movie I wanna see is ten minutes away, both timely and spacely gotta go bye
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18:25:15 <oklopol> fizzie: you're envious of turku?
18:25:39 <shachaf> fizzie: can you cross the same river twice
18:25:51 <boily> fizzie: according to wikipédia's “List of Primate Cities”, Bern counts as a major city in Switzerland.
18:26:27 <fizzie> oklopol: Kinda-sorta. Vaguely. Not because of much else than the river, though.
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18:41:38 <FreeFull> It's large enough to be known by name by random europeans who have never been to Switzerland
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18:49:22 <Taneb> York has like two rivers
18:51:02 <Taneb> fizzie, move to York imo
18:52:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, York has twice as many rivers as Hexham!
18:52:10 <boily> fizzie: Montréal is better. we have the same river, but twice!
18:52:12 <Taneb> Also I'm just being silly at fizzie
18:52:29 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, York even has a wall!
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18:53:19 <Taneb> Except I live on the outside of the wall :(
18:54:32 <boily> we have walls. sort of. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fortifications_Montr%C3%A9al_2009.JPG
18:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> we don't have walls in edinburgh because *rolls dice* walls are for puny englishmen
18:55:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, does Coventry have walls
19:02:05 <quintopia> Taneb: plot and graph (not in the node-vertex sense but the other one) appear to be interchangeable both as nouns and verbs
19:02:21 <quintopia> Taneb: plotting a graph and graphing a plot are about the same thing
19:04:05 <Taneb> quintopia, but both have different meanings
19:05:13 <quintopia> Taneb: yes i know you were looking for words which have the same meanings and ONLY the same meanings, but words which interchangeable for one of their definitions is useful enough to a learner of english
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19:05:47 <Taneb> quintopia, now you're moving the goalposts :P
19:06:14 <quintopia> Taneb: i already hit a home run. i can do what i want.
19:06:25 <quintopia> boily: does ursula martinez live in montreal
19:06:54 <boily> quintopia: probably. lots of people live in montréal. who is she?
19:07:50 <boily> (wikipédia says that she lives in London.)
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19:09:37 <quintopia> they call her a "cult cabaret diva"
19:10:23 <quintopia> i have a video of an amazing performance of hers in montreal. so i had to ask.
19:11:10 <quintopia> it's the second youtube link on google...but i think the full version is longer than 4:47?
19:11:37 <boily> once again according to the wiki, youtube videos butcher her performance.
19:12:02 <boily> (why do we have so many naked people in montréal? don't they know that it gets fungottely cold in the winter?)
19:12:02 <fungot> boily: i could never put a cat in the barrel because they believed in the dark or otherwise confused.
19:12:02 <mrhmouse> quintopia: possibly because not all of her performance is "acceptable" for YouTube?
19:12:22 <mrhmouse> fungot: please don't barrel any cats
19:12:22 <fungot> mrhmouse: you just enter a number to someone whom sarahbot thinks that your nick resembles. then t has a uniquely determined extension to a bounded linear transformation s from the closure to see the enhancements. i
19:12:27 <quintopia> mrhmouse: you mean youtube can't show full frontal nudity? NONSENSE
19:12:59 <boily> fungot: you do texture mapping with other bots? fascinating.
19:13:07 <boily> fungot: beuh. I am disappoint.
19:13:07 <fungot> boily: remove ( unit foo) ( define b ( begin ( define ( push el list))) shoudl tell you.
19:13:19 <boily> fungot: oh, a secret coded message!
19:13:19 <fungot> boily: very simple to implement, i juts mean a set with a fluid environment, as well as math functions ( the ones from queue) but they use perl because it's what i'm currently using that via ssh rather than my perl programs
19:13:46 <boily> fungot: I'll have the decoder implemented right away. by the way, did you know that R7RS is out?
19:13:46 <fungot> boily: gorgeous soaking cold! var temp)... in essense you're constructing an if/ else that does either one or the other
19:14:06 <shachaf> fungot: you're confusing everyone
19:14:07 <fungot> shachaf: " amis" is finnish for finland finnish :p)
19:14:22 <mrhmouse> today I learned finnish. thanks, fungot.
19:14:22 <fungot> mrhmouse: mmmdonuts: so you didn't write asiebot to another channel sometime and i'll tell you that continuations are an integral part of the article.
19:14:25 <shachaf> fizzie: can you confirm or deny (probably deny)
19:14:28 <boily> s/is finnish/is french/
19:15:05 <shachaf> fungot: do you even know finnish?
19:15:05 <fungot> shachaf: i agree, i still don't get why they think schemers are arrogant.)
19:15:19 <shachaf> fungot: can you help me make a starcraft clone in scheme
19:15:20 <fungot> shachaf: somehow you're getting into the hair splitting business
19:16:29 <shachaf> fungot: i'd love to get into that business
19:16:29 <fungot> shachaf: yes, and misspelling it purposely. very clever. but alltogether i think cotmta is the best
19:16:41 <shachaf> fungot: no, you're the best ♥
19:16:41 <fungot> shachaf: neilv says: no problem writing ' u' and liberally sprinkling sentences with ' lol'
19:17:31 <shachaf> fungot: i got a problem with that
19:17:58 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: two stacks for the program :)
19:18:14 <quintopia> shachaf: looks like fungot got tired of you
19:18:14 <fungot> quintopia: ( especially regarding the cons) ( define ( fnord status) " an error is signalled", btw). i thought of that
19:18:26 <fungot> shachaf: then i'll get back to when the state of the art. it's a large industry to be sure
19:18:47 <shachaf> fungot: WHAT'S A LARGE INDUSTRY? complete sentences, please!
19:18:47 <fungot> shachaf: oh wait. that was actually very inviting...
19:18:55 <fungot> shachaf: i want a break from it. so it took a while to adjust to it and crossed my fingers.)
19:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> thanks fungot, being friends is so much better than when you wanted to kill me
19:19:01 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: tried to copypaste stuff from this compiling machine to the next logical step is to figure out
19:19:17 <shachaf> fungot wanted to kill Phantom_Hoover?
19:19:17 <fungot> shachaf: notice that its name already ended in -y.
19:19:59 <mrhmouse> fungot is teaching ruddy to spout nonsense
19:20:00 <fungot> mrhmouse: it has two defective pixels, no matter who listens to trance :)
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19:24:18 <quintopia> JesseH blanked the Derplang page. Yes, it's JesseH's lang, but... NO TAKEBACKSIES ON PUBLIC DOMAIN DEDICATION. can i get a ROLLBACK??
19:24:58 <fizzie> shachaf: "amis" is colloquial (arguably slightly derogatory, depending on use) for "ammattikoulu" ("ammattiopisto", "ammattioppilaitos"), i.e., "vocational school", a place for the sort of career-oriented upper secondary education from which one typically does not go on for a university degree.
19:25:02 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: but seriously, why "Phantom Hoover"?
19:26:19 <shachaf> Higgledy-piggledy, / Phantomy_Hoovery / Once thought that fungot would / Want him to die; // How'd he survive that? By, / Uncomplicatedly, / Changing his nickname by / Dropping a -y.
19:26:19 <fungot> shachaf: but it would cause executing unwanted instructions even if you leave it out.
19:27:40 <shachaf> fungot: Is "amis" Finnish for Finland Finnish?
19:27:40 <fungot> shachaf: the ultimate esolang shootout" ( when i'm already familiar with usual til strategies.
19:28:43 <shachaf> Higgledy-piggledy, / Phantomy_Hoovery / Once thought that fungot would / Want him to die; // How'd he survive it? By / Uncomplicatedly / Changing his nickname, and / Dropping a -y.
19:28:44 <fungot> shachaf: i could be wrong. it refers to whether you do it,
19:28:47 <fizzie> shachaf: No. But maybe it's Finland for Finnish Finland, if that means anything.
19:29:24 <shachaf> fizzie: well maybe YOU'RE finland for finnish finland!!
19:29:50 <quintopia> at least fungot has admitted it might be wrong
19:29:51 <fungot> quintopia: because nobody does this mean?
19:30:07 <fungot> quintopia: are you referring to
19:34:49 <oerjan> fungot: are you dropping
19:34:50 <fungot> oerjan: by saying " you hit me, and the
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19:51:41 <HackEgo> Darklust: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:52:07 <boily> oerjan: I think you accidentally.
19:52:19 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the music sucks ( war samples like guns and radio communications) and the second one is a editor for midi ( rosegarden, kde based)
19:52:19 <oerjan> boily: he's already had a `relcome
19:52:42 <oerjan> boily: nothing accidentally about it
19:53:32 <quintopia> you haven't been coding in dogescript have you.
19:53:33 <shachaf> Uh oh, we need to undo boily's damage.
19:53:37 <shachaf> Darklust: You are not relcome here.
19:53:39 <boily> oerjan: and there I was naïvely hoping I could `relcome someone...
19:54:06 <Darklust> I'd rather not, it's built ontop of what, javascript?
19:55:49 <Darklust> Why is there no implementation of NABD?
19:55:59 <Darklust> At least, none that I can find
19:56:02 <quintopia> because you haven't written it yet
19:56:46 <boily> shachaf: that diæresis was valid. you can't counter it.
19:57:12 <shachaf> boily: Over here, "naïve" gets rendered with *three* dots above the ı.
19:57:50 <HackEgo> [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS] [U+0076 LATIN SMALL LETTER V] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
19:57:57 <shachaf> Yes, that's a combining diæresis.
19:58:03 <shachaf> naïve gets rendered with two dots.
19:58:10 <shachaf> naive gets rendered with one dot.
19:58:17 <shachaf> naıve gets rendered with no dots.
19:58:40 <Darklust> Are those mapped to your keyboard
19:58:44 <olsner> naïve gets rendered with three dots. three!
19:58:53 <quintopia> Darklust: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_a_brainfuck_derivative is this what you're referring to? it definitely doesn't say "Implemented" there at the bottom. also, there's no spec.
19:59:15 <olsner> I think this font is lacking lots of fancy unicode
19:59:22 <Darklust> I got excited and then I wasn't excited
19:59:40 <HackEgo> [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+00EF LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH DIAERESIS] [U+0076 LATIN SMALL LETTER V] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
19:59:42 <olsner> I think gtk and xchat aren't much good at it either
19:59:54 <Slereah> How easy is it to write a BF compiler in assembly?
20:00:10 <Slereah> I am wondering if it's a good idea to try out assembly a bit
20:00:33 <Bike> it's pretty easy to write a bf compiler in anything
20:00:34 <quintopia> Slereah: an assembly program to compile BF to machine code?
20:00:51 <quintopia> but what machine would you target? x86?
20:00:52 <fizzie> Well, that's just weird. In PuTTY (I'm doing some Windows-Steaming), "naïve" gets three dots; if I copy-paste it to Chrome's input line, it gets a single dot; but when I paste it in, say, Google's search field, it gets two.
20:00:58 <fizzie> I guess that averages out to correct.
20:01:17 <Slereah> Seems like it might be a neat little project to learn some more assembly
20:01:21 <boily> your setups are wëird.
20:01:35 <fizzie> (Maybe Chrome's input line has some special handling for safety.)
20:01:36 <quintopia> boily: don't worry. it renders just fine with two dots here.
20:01:53 <boily> quintopia: thanks for reassuring me. I was feeling very strange.
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20:03:07 <olsner> does the w in ẅ look normal to you?
20:03:22 <boily> olsner: it switches fonts, but displays properly.
20:03:50 <olsner> I guess the font switch is what makes it look bad here
20:04:50 <Slereah> I guess the hardest part would be figuring out the IO
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20:05:55 <boily> olsner: my IME lets me put diæresises on: äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿ
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20:08:00 <ion> http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN3/
20:09:29 <quintopia> boily: the htx look a bit strained, but the others get remapped to the appropriate non-combined characters
20:10:12 <olsner> Slereah: not too hard, just depends entirely on what you target with the assembly... doing a system call on e.g. linux is easy
20:11:07 <olsner> there was a " on that h right until I pressed enter
20:12:00 <quintopia> hmm. even the non-combined form looks blurry
20:12:53 <HackEgo> [U+00E4 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS] [U+00EB LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH DIAERESIS] [U+1E27 LATIN SMALL LETTER H WITH DIAERESIS] [U+00EF LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH DIAERESIS] [U+00F6 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS] [U+1E97 LATIN SMALL LETTER T WITH DIAERESIS] [U+00FC LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS] [U+1E85 LATIN SMALL LETTER W WIT
20:13:14 <HackEgo> [U+1E85 LATIN SMALL LETTER W WITH DIAERESIS] [U+1E8D LATIN SMALL LETTER X WITH DIAERESIS] [U+00FF LATIN SMALL LETTER Y WITH DIAERESIS]
20:13:25 <oerjan> not a combined character in sight
20:14:17 <HackEgo> [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS]
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20:40:25 <boily> reachable accented letters on my layout: http://pastebin.ca/2477097
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20:51:47 <HackEgo> bin/unidecode: a python script text executable
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21:00:42 <FreeFull> I wonder if it'd be good to make a variant of befunge that's more suitable for scripting
21:02:03 <FreeFull> Ability to execute programs and pipe/redirect their results, maybe ability to have substacks that can be pushed onto the stack
21:02:46 <fizzie> Funge-98 already has a stack of stacks. Though not quite like that.
21:04:47 <mrhmouse> by "execute programs", do you mean arbitrary system calls or other Befunge programs?
21:05:00 <fizzie> And a kind of an equivalent to C's system(3) even without going into the fingerprints. No redirection of inputs with built-in commands, though.
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21:08:52 <fizzie> Curiously, I'm not sure if there's a fingerprint for doing something like popen. There's FORK, but that's just a FORK. There's no file-descriptor-level IO (though FILE could perhaps open /dev/fd/N) or exec that I can find, which is kind of crazy, because there *is* SysV message queues, semaphores and shared memory.
21:12:40 <olsner> maybe you could open /proc/self/mem and add some code
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22:20:01 <fizzie> @ask oerjan Hey, do you Norweggers have some sort of logical rules when you use "på" and when "i" when you're explaining where someone/something is? (In Finnish the two suffixes -ssa/ssä and -lla/llä seem to be used pretty much randomly, but OTOH all Swedish examples I could think of were pretty logical; mostly "i", and then "på" for things like islands.)
22:26:45 <`^_^v> @ask lambdabot will you go out with me
22:32:05 <shachaf> fizzie: Things like islands?
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22:35:19 <fizzie> shachaf: På Åland, i Helsingfors. På Sveaborg. I Vanda. "På" is like "on", so it makes sense for islands. "I" is like "in", so it makes sense for generic places.
22:35:46 <fizzie> shachaf: (But those four in Finnish would be "Ahvenanmaalla", "Helsingissä", "Suomenlinnassa" and "Vantaalla".)
22:37:59 <fizzie> Right. I'm sure Swedish has some exceptions that don't really make sense too, but I couldn't think of any. At least for the Swedish names of Finnish places.
22:46:35 <HackEgo> olist (931): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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23:44:55 <ion> The overview text http://www.crutchfield.com/S-AtP1DjFffcX/p_703SUB36M/AudioQuest-SUB-3-6-meter-19-7-feet.html
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23:53:22 <shachaf> ion: wow i'm throwing away all my other cables
23:57:30 <ion> shachaf: Remember to only use this for the subwoofer, there are other cables for other speakers.
23:57:53 <ion> Important: “Although this same material can cause high frequencies to sound edgy with full-range analog audio signals, it actually improves bass articulation when used in subwoofer cables.”
23:58:14 <ion> “edgy” and “bass articulation” being the proper scientific terms.
00:03:54 <shachaf> copumpkin: hmm, didn't you categories package define a category of adjunctions
00:03:57 <Taneb> How possible is a language like Haskell but with support for object-oriented programming
00:04:19 <shachaf> Taneb: People have tried various things.
00:05:02 <shachaf> @google object-oriented haskell
00:05:03 <lambdabot> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5414323/does-haskell-support-object-oriented-programming
00:05:03 <lambdabot> Title: Does Haskell support object oriented programming - Stack Overflow
00:05:21 <Taneb> (for some bizarre reason I have to write blog posts about computer science for my uni course)
00:05:32 <Taneb> (and also comment on other people's blog)
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00:05:47 <shachaf> Taneb: why don't you figure out chu spaces for me instead
00:05:54 <Taneb> (me and some friends are writing controversial posts because they are easy to comment on)
00:06:04 <fizzie> ion: Wow, no break-in period!
00:06:10 <Taneb> (I'm writing one about why Haskell's a great language, and one of my friends is writing a similar post about C++)
00:06:26 <ion> *cough* C++?
00:06:49 <Taneb> ion, he has similar opinions of Haskell as I do of C++
00:07:23 <Taneb> Also, as long as we can provide citations, easy-to-disagree-with is good
00:10:28 <fizzie> "When you place your order, you can select our cable break-in service, selectable through a drop down box in the shopping cart for that cable product. Prices vary with the cable model and level of break-in desired."
00:10:46 <fizzie> "Our cables require a total of 400 to 500 hours to completely break in. If you ordered our 2 day cable break-in service, your cables will arrive with the equivalent of 96 hours on them. If you ordered the extended 5 day breakin, the equivalent of 240 hours will be on them."
00:11:26 <ion> Now that’s customer service.
00:12:14 <ion> Comments: Personally i think this cable is so fast it has changed the phase relationship (or corrected it) by 180 degrees above 60hz, the bass is so tight it sounds like the bass is coming from my speakers.
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00:13:00 <fizzie> ion: And it only costs $25 bucks for the 5-day extended breakin! (Two days is free!)
00:13:11 <ion> Whoa! What a bargain!
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00:16:05 <fizzie> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20009082-47.html CNET teaches you the difference between analog and digital: digital is dotted.
00:16:20 <fizzie> Choice quote: "Every sound you hear in real life that doesn't come out of a speaker is analog."
00:16:45 <Bike> "Theoretically have an infinite resolution", nice
00:18:23 <ion> Analog is always "on," digital is either on or off.
00:18:46 <Bike> lol this is great
00:18:59 <Bike> go over the advantages of digital and then be like "but anyway analog sounds better"
00:19:04 <pikhq> "analog", "infinite resolution" what?
00:19:09 <Bike> It's Like, Cold And Impersonal, Man
00:19:26 <fizzie> Every time I end up on an audiophile web-crawl I get this feeling maybe we should just get rid of ears in general.
00:19:32 <Bike> pikhq: "CDs have a 16-bit resolution and DVD-Audio discs can be encoded with a maximum of 24-bit resolution"
00:19:45 <pikhq> Even ignoring the band-limitedness of human senses, reality is quantised.
00:20:21 <fizzie> pikhq: "Analog recording's theoretically infinite resolution refers to its continuity, compared with digital's on/off sampled nature." See, it's that simple.
00:20:34 <pikhq> It's a shame elementary signal processing is relatively obscure.
00:20:47 <Bike> shannon is my god, man
00:21:16 <pikhq> I wasn't accusing anyone *here* of being this ignorant. Just CNET. :)
00:21:29 <Bike> though i know less signal processing than i'd like :(
00:21:41 <fizzie> Bike: Anyway they both "still fall short in creating truly life-like sound", so you can use either.
00:22:08 <Bike> thank goodness
00:22:37 <pikhq> Bike: Yeah, but you at least know Shannon.
00:23:02 <Bike> neuronal coding is kind of awesomely all over the place btw, sometimes it reasonably makes sense as frequency coding and sometimes a transient stimulus of one photon causes a response
00:23:52 <pikhq> And presumably also know about quantization noise.
00:23:54 <Bike> must be what's after jello
00:24:26 <Bike> pikhq: not by that name, at least :/
00:24:57 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quantization_error.png oh, yeah, that's simple enough
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00:25:13 <Bike> clearly another data point (!) saying analog is superior.
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00:28:54 <pikhq> 'Cept that quantization noise, for 16-bit audio, is like -90 dB.
00:29:28 <Bike> i think that might be the lowest dB measurement i've ever heard of
00:30:27 <pikhq> Note that here the maximum volume is 0 dB.
00:31:02 <pikhq> The 24-bit noise floor is, uh, -145 dB.
00:31:14 <fizzie> http://www.rane.com/pi14.html heh :)
00:31:22 <fizzie> (Look at that list of features.)
00:31:23 <Fiora> 24-bit isn't (16-bit) * 1.5?
00:31:47 <pikhq> Fiora: No, each extra bit doubles the precision of the samples.
00:32:28 <Fiora> if 8-bit is 45db and 16-bit is 90db would 24-bit be 135...?
00:32:32 <Bike> i may have underestimated **1.5.
00:32:55 <pikhq> Fiora: It'd be, like, log_10(2^8)?
00:33:34 <Bike> fizzie: niiiiice
00:34:08 <pikhq> Oh, except that a change by a factor of 10 is a 10dB change.
00:34:19 <pikhq> So that'd be... 10*log_10(2^8)?
00:35:25 <fizzie> 20*, I believe. Because of power/magnitude and blahblah.
00:35:49 <pikhq> That makes it work. 48dB.
00:36:16 <pikhq> And the actual number for 16 bits is -96 dB, so hey.
00:37:33 <pikhq> For comparison, a vuvuzela is 120dB.
00:37:38 <Bike> good to know dB are just as confusing as the last time i cared about dB
00:38:18 <shachaf> Bike: imo use cents instead?
00:38:38 <shachaf> 1200 cents/octave, it's perfect
00:38:51 <Bike> what's the unit where you use e? nats?
00:39:11 <pikhq> So... yeah. 16-bit 44.1 kHz is perfect for those of us who don't care about listening to the grand vuvuzela orchestra at actual volume.
00:39:11 <Bike> or was nats for information...
00:39:12 <ion> What was the power being compared to again when using a dB value as an “absolute” value?
00:39:37 <fizzie> Bike: It's the e-bit, yes.
00:39:37 <shachaf> Bike: have you learned about chu spaces yet
00:39:45 <Bike> why would i care about chu spaces
00:40:26 <shachaf> come on they generalize topological spaces and vector spaces and a zillion things apparently??
00:41:03 <fizzie> ion: It's very context-dependent.
00:41:24 <shachaf> look i don't know that's why you read these papers for me
00:41:26 <ion> 20 µPa 10e−12 W/m² or 10e−12 W apparently.
00:41:36 <Bike> why would i want to generalize all those things though
00:41:37 <ion> comma after the µPa
00:41:42 <fizzie> That's just the usual for dBA.
00:41:57 <fizzie> (Which is also A-weighted.)
00:42:10 <ion> I was asking due to <pikhq> For comparison, a vuvuzela is 120dB.
00:42:24 <shachaf> why would you generalize anything
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00:42:37 <shachaf> btw a chu space is just a matrix
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00:42:45 <pikhq> ion: Ah. Well, if you set the noise floor of a CD at 0, the loudest sound it can represent is 96dB.
00:42:46 <ion> What chu say?
00:43:06 <Bike> differentiation is just a matrix.
00:43:15 <ion> The Matrix is just a matrix.
00:43:17 <FireFly> Btw, is there an algebraic structure that captures the idea of 'complemet'? I've been thinking some about that
00:43:24 <Bike> solidity is just a matrix
00:43:42 <fizzie> The "acoustic decibel" zero is (very) approximately at the threshold of hearing.
00:43:53 <Bike> that must be very approximate indeed
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00:46:16 <pikhq> The figures get better with noise shaping. (you can make the quantization noise lie in bands humans don't hear so well, making the *effective* noise floor in the bands we care about lower; about -120dB)
00:46:17 <fizzie> Very. But it's at least some sort of a justification for the level.
00:47:51 <FireFly> Hm, never mind my earlier line..
00:49:38 <shachaf> Bike: differentiation is just a matrix?
00:50:40 <Bike> it's only a linear operator
00:51:59 <shachaf> but with an infinite-dimensional vector spaces?
00:52:18 <pikhq> Well yes, f(x+ε)=f(x)+f'(x)ε...
00:53:08 <shachaf> does that even have a basis
00:53:40 <pikhq> shachaf: I think you could extrapolate the duals to infinite-dimensional vector spaces.
00:54:31 <Bike> have one delta function for every real (or w/e)
00:55:36 <Bike> you could also do something easier like just polynomials, if you want, i guess.
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01:08:24 <shachaf> oklopol: Oh, http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Chu+construction
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01:59:07 <copumpkin> shachaf: I never wrote one, but Saizan or xplat might have
01:59:56 <shachaf> copumpkin: Well, do you know anything good about that category?
02:00:59 <copumpkin> hmm, what are objects and morphisms in it?
02:01:12 <shachaf> Objects are categories, morphisms are pairs of adjoint functors.
02:02:25 <shachaf> You can pick which direction it goes -- let's say an adjunction : C ~~> D is a pair (F : D -> C, G : C -> D, F -| G)
02:02:32 <shachaf> So it goes in the direction of the right adjoint.
02:03:45 <shachaf> Since there are no functor to the empty category, I guess there are no adjunctions either to or from it.
02:04:23 <shachaf> Adjunctions to/from a singleton category correspond to terminal/initial objects in the other category.
02:10:16 <shachaf> But in general adjunctions are weird so I don't know.
02:12:03 <shachaf> Does it have products or something? Certainly it doesn't have an initial/terminal object.
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02:45:21 <Sgeo> Someone's complaint about Elixir arguably applies to Rust
02:45:30 <Sgeo> Perhaps less so, but still applies IMO
02:48:28 <Sgeo> They were complaining about rebindable variables. Not about making mutable structures with them (which I had previously strawmanned that sort of complaint as), but about being able to read a code and finding where the variables it mentions are adjusted.
02:49:02 <Sgeo> So, it seems to me that Rust owned pointers, even non-mut, could still end up changing between declaration and use, and that that needs to be known. Although getting that wrong is a compile-time error, so it's less bad
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03:00:27 <madbr> trying to figure out if there's some set of numbers where evaluating if a number is in that set is turing complete
03:01:27 <Bike> a recursive set?
03:01:28 <madbr> (aside from encoding a program in some real language into a number and then the number is in the set if it runs)
03:01:48 <madbr> I think it would have to be a recursive set yeah
03:02:03 <madbr> though maybe it's possible to do it with a plain function
03:03:30 <madbr> or something in the style of the collatz sequence
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03:17:06 <doesthiswork> /msg bike can you give me an estimate of when the ai winter began and ended?
03:17:37 <Bike> i'm no good with dates.
03:18:04 <doesthiswork> I really should make a bot that takes messages beginning with space
03:18:21 <Bike> wikipedia would probably be better than me.
03:19:58 <doesthiswork> I guess I have to find more modern paper to read then
03:20:08 <Bike> paper on what?
03:22:46 <doesthiswork> in this case knowledge representation, but I'm trying to get familiar with case based reasoning
03:23:41 <Bike> read the rdf docs or whatever
03:24:39 <doesthiswork> I'd prefer to avoid learning more than a rough overview knowledge representation
03:25:20 <doesthiswork> ontology is a word that gives me a slight rash
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03:26:51 <Bike_> doesthiswork: then i recommend "Ramón Llull's Thinking Machine" and "John Wilkins' Analytical Language".
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03:28:43 <ion> YOU ARE WELCOME
03:39:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF_qQYrCcns
03:59:45 <HackEgo> hackego: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
04:34:11 <ion> that’s waisis
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04:58:15 <doesthiswork> did you know there is a book series about sexual encounters with dinosaurs
04:59:23 <doesthiswork> http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/10-real-book-covers-from-dinosaur-on-human-sex-novels/
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05:12:55 <pikhq> Looks truncated. "irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）" it should be.
05:13:09 <pikhq> And in fact I thought that's what I had typed when I wrote that.
05:13:45 <HackEgo> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: <HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE>. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
05:15:06 <pikhq> Hrm, is the "hackego: " text what made it too long?
05:15:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wwalcome: not found
05:15:12 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
05:15:14 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access w*: No such file or directory
05:15:23 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /bin/w*: No such file or directory
05:15:44 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
05:16:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welkom: not found
05:16:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Welkom: not found
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05:18:56 <HackEgo> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
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06:06:43 <oklopol> "<FireFly> Btw, is there an algebraic structure that captures the idea of 'complemet'? I've been thinking some about that" boolean algebra maybe?
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06:11:50 <oklopol> ("<Bike> a recursive set?" being recursive is an _upper_ bound for complexity)
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06:28:24 <quintopia> does * not work in filenames with mv?
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06:36:15 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
06:37:05 <HackEgo> bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ file \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
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06:38:08 <HackEgo> adu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:39:33 <adu> I tried deploying a language once
06:39:43 <adu> I didn't get very far
06:40:25 <quintopia> interesting. must have been a very complicated language.
06:40:33 <adu> it was a scheme clone
06:40:36 <adu> http://andydude.github.io/droscheme/
06:40:54 <quintopia> (i am deploying right now, and in under a week, i have a working prototype and a boatload of example programs)
06:41:21 <quintopia> (because the language is danged simple)
06:41:24 <adu> I'm more interested in metaprogramming now
06:41:51 <oklopol> what's a complete numerical tower
06:42:02 <adu> oklopol: up to complex
06:42:11 <adu> and strict rationals
06:42:31 <adu> some schemes do 1/2 => 0.5, which is not using a rational object
06:42:48 <oklopol> why should there be a difference in a high level language
06:43:08 <oklopol> unless you imply that precision is lost
06:43:24 <adu> well, it's not precision that's lost, it's exactness that's lost
06:43:38 <oklopol> i don't know the difference
06:43:48 <oklopol> i guess i do but i still don't know what you mean
06:43:49 <adu> precision is continuous
06:43:52 <adu> exactness is binary
06:44:19 <adu> although, you could make the argument that exactness is infinite precision
06:44:28 <quintopia> as in, 0.33333... does not equal 1/3 no matter how many 3's you put
06:45:00 <quintopia> but yes, if you say exactness is infinite precision, then precision is also lost
06:46:03 <adu> well, droscheme is also an experiment in metaprogramming for me
06:46:07 <adu> the compiler is at least
06:46:13 <oklopol> "exactness is binary" do you mean to be exact is to conform to the ieee specification?
06:50:01 <adu> ieee specifies operations within a given preciison
06:50:38 <adu> i mean if you do (acos -1), then even though -1 is an exact number, the output will be inexact, i.e.: pi
06:51:21 <adu> or whatever double-precision object best represents pi
06:51:56 <oklopol> so i made this minigolf "game" some weeks ago, where there are some lines and a ball bounces off of them
06:52:13 <oklopol> after 11 bounces, the number usually has something like 100 digits
06:52:35 <oklopol> i mean the position & direction
06:52:47 <oklopol> the numbers representing those i mean
06:53:00 <oklopol> and i mean the numerator and denominator of those numbers
06:53:25 <oklopol> point is rationals are funnnn
06:54:08 <adu> one of things I wanted to try out was the whole "exact real" concept
06:54:25 <adu> essentially how Mathematica does things
06:55:07 <adu> everything is stored symbolically, then when you ask for 50 decimal places, it calculates everything, then when you ask for 2000 decimal places, it calculates it again from scratch
06:55:16 <oklopol> my hope was to make a puzzle game where you have to solve hole-in-one problems, where some of the levels can be passed only if you solve some big math conjecture
06:56:00 <oklopol> but apparently such systems are not known to be able to simulate turing machines
06:56:20 <oklopol> a closely related model is one where for each wall you have a specific direction in which the ball bounces
06:56:35 <adu> that reminds me of an episode of Elementary
06:56:38 <oklopol> (in mine, it's a "physically correct" bounce)
06:56:56 <oklopol> in the closely related model, apparently from 3d on you can simulate arbitrary computation
06:57:13 <adu> with rotational momentum and table-top friction?
06:57:28 <quintopia> oklopol: what if some of the walls are interlinked, so that a bounce against one wall removes another wall and causes a third to pop-up. i bet you could do arbitrary circuits that way.
06:57:31 <oklopol> with a reflection over the normal
06:57:43 <adu> oklopol: or portals
06:58:34 <oklopol> quintopia: surely, but that's not as cool as having a turing machine running in the decimal extension of your rationals.
06:58:58 <quintopia> oklopol: maybe it would let you have that too
06:59:41 <quintopia> oklopol: hmm, couldn't you simulate fractran by clever wall placement?
07:00:07 <oklopol> well that's pretty much what has been done in 3d for the one with bounces in constant directions
07:00:28 <oklopol> except usually people simulate affine functions
07:00:58 <oklopol> whaddyacallem functions which are affine in some way in some places and affine in another way in other places.
07:01:35 <oklopol> you have a 2d vector of rationals represent the left and right tail of the turing machine
07:01:44 <quintopia> oklopol: i think maybe you could do it in 3D with "physical" bounces
07:01:55 <oklopol> tails of the infinite configuration
07:02:14 <oklopol> perhaps, but do you have a specific idea?
07:02:43 <quintopia> i have an idea for a divisibility test...
07:03:18 <oklopol> draw a quick sketch in your favorite 3d modeling program
07:03:37 <quintopia> i don't 3d modeling. and i don't have a computer cable of it anyway.
07:03:59 <oklopol> that's the most important part
07:05:19 <oklopol> 3d modeling doesn't need a fancy computer, realistic rendering does
07:05:57 <quintopia> thank you for your kind help with my condition
07:06:20 <oklopol> but yeah there is pretty much no nice and easy way to do 3d modeling afaik (let alone nd)
07:06:39 <oklopol> say compared to opening paint and drawing a 2d image
07:06:43 <adu> oklopol: there is one easy way, it's called photogrammetry
07:06:59 <oklopol> okay photogram me something quickly
07:07:10 <quintopia> oklopol: yeah oklopol just build a real one and photogrammeter it into a model!
07:07:27 <adu> photogrammetry requires specialized tools that convert static images from multiple angles into a 3D model for you
07:07:52 <adu> i don't have any such tools
07:07:58 <quintopia> oklopol: also oklopol i like oklopol saying oklopol your name oklopol too many times oklopol in a sentence oklopol. oklopol!
07:08:15 <adu> http://www.microsoft.com/ultracam/en-us/umap20.aspx
07:08:40 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/ddd.png
07:08:43 <quintopia> could you explain Clue (oklopol) to me, oklopol? your description on the wiki is nonsense
07:09:25 <adu> oklopol: awwww
07:09:54 <adu> oklopol: I can't, I don't have the software
07:10:59 <oklopol> yes, you have to get special software and i bet it takes seconds and seconds to open when you double-click it so you will never bother to use it.
07:11:29 <adu> I prefer Gimp
07:11:44 <adu> I can do things in Gimp that will make you weep
07:12:04 <oklopol> things i need to do: paint pixels, paint straight lines
07:12:56 <oklopol> other things of importance: the program takes less than 3 seconds to open
07:13:03 <oklopol> i'm a busy and important guy
07:13:08 <oklopol> and my programs need to respect that
07:13:44 <oklopol> i don't really get gimp, iirc last time i tried it took me a week to find an actual brush
07:14:49 <quintopia> oklopol: yes, i'm pretty sure it's possible in 3D with "physical bounces" if you're allowed infinite walls and infinite cups. i just designed one in my head. it only uses 90 degree bounces.
07:15:48 <quintopia> well, i left out one part of the design, but yes what i have requires there be an infinite number of walls
07:15:54 <oklopol> does infinite walls mean infinitely many walls?
07:16:06 <oklopol> or why do you need infinite size
07:16:07 <quintopia> cups as in holes as in "hole in one"
07:16:46 <oklopol> i have a hunch that you are not doing the computation in the presentation of the number, but in the large scale location of the ball
07:16:53 <quintopia> getting the ball in the hole is the halting condition right
07:17:12 <oklopol> can you try to describe what's going on
07:17:13 <quintopia> well of course i am. i can't think in terms of the position numbers
07:17:51 <quintopia> so the position of the ball on the x axis is your number n (in fractran)
07:18:06 <quintopia> just using integer positions you know
07:18:39 <quintopia> and it bounces ziggity zag parallel to the y, then z, then y, then z axes
07:19:03 <quintopia> every wall that turns it from y towards z has holes in it every kth integer
07:19:22 <quintopia> so the first wall has even/odd holes, the second open-closed-closed, etc.
07:19:47 <quintopia> where k is one of the denominators of one of the fractions
07:20:25 <quintopia> so the first fraction it comes to that divides it, it will pass through the wall and keep traveling down the y axis
07:20:25 <oklopol> got some breakfast, will now read your formal proof
07:22:05 <oklopol> "and it bounces ziggity zag parallel to the y, then z, then y, then z axes" can you clarify this
07:22:07 <quintopia> then it hits a wall that turns it to the left, towards the yz plane with a y value corresponding to the product of the fraction and the number
07:23:34 <quintopia> i'm not sure i'll be able to describe it in words :/
07:24:38 <oklopol> well anyway i believe it's doable if you allow that sort of stuff
07:25:05 <oklopol> and that sort of stuff with infinite boards might certainly make an interesting game
07:25:09 <quintopia> no idea how you'd do it encoding the data in the digits after the decimal
07:25:59 <oklopol> me neither, i've asked 2 professors and another researcher sofar
07:26:08 <oklopol> the first said it's clearly undecidable in 2d
07:26:17 <oklopol> but we then later agreed maybe it's not known
07:26:49 <oklopol> the second said http://mathworld.wolfram.com/IlluminationProblem.html
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07:28:29 <oklopol> i should really make a more serious version of it, and a documentation that actually documentates something
07:30:09 <quintopia> i don't understand how you define a function by examples
07:30:44 <quintopia> what if i want a function that ... squares negative numbers and square roots positive numbers
07:30:57 <quintopia> how would i specify that and how would the compiler figure out that's what i want
07:31:49 <oklopol> i wonder where clue.rar is nowadays.
07:32:19 <oklopol> well you have to know the exact recursive algorithm
07:32:34 <oklopol> clue doesn't figure that out, it just saves you the trouble of actually writing it down
07:32:39 <adu> are you talking about http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue
07:32:52 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)
07:32:54 <adu> who is keymaker?
07:33:28 <oklopol> sometimes visits the channel
07:34:07 <oklopol> quintopia: writing mathematical functions might be tricky
07:34:33 <oklopol> because the end condition for the recursion is complicated (some error is small enough)
07:34:45 <oklopol> maybe you could give the comparison operator and the epsilon value as helpers
07:34:50 <oklopol> it might figure it out eventually
07:35:58 <oklopol> basically, you have . a -> b things and you have :. c -> d : e -> f things, and you have a list of helper functions
07:36:16 <oklopol> first, the compiler figures out how, using the helper functions, you can separate things like a from things like c or e
07:36:35 <oklopol> erm, doesn't need to separate e sorry
07:36:43 <oklopol> because a is where recursion should stop, and c is where recursion should happen
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07:37:39 <oklopol> how easy this of course depends on what sort of helper functions you have (i think the reference function mostly had list operations and some integer operations)
07:37:55 <oklopol> (you can of course also use your own functions as helpers)
07:38:05 <quintopia> reference function? does this still exist?
07:39:15 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)/Quicksort
07:39:25 <oklopol> this compiled in less than a minute iirc
07:39:45 <oklopol> quicksort ~ {. [1] -> [1] . [2] -> [2] } base case 2
07:39:59 <oklopol> (one is enough, the other is basically just a comment.)
07:40:58 <oklopol> {:. [4 2 3 1] -> [1 2 3 4]
07:41:23 <oklopol> if you get [4 2 3 1] as input, you should somehow get [2 3 1] out of it and [] out of it
07:41:40 <oklopol> then you somehow patch up [1 2 3 4] from [4 2 3 1] and [1 2 3] and []
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07:42:35 <oklopol> then it just does that same thing for all inputs
07:43:01 <oklopol> (usually = in the three or so examples in the history of mankind that have been implemented)
07:43:45 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)/SKI_calculus this was a bit trickier because you have to go very deep into the list, and the main logic ski apply has many many branches
07:43:54 <oklopol> (deep into the input list)
07:44:09 <oklopol> so that, iirc, took like 10 minutes to compile
07:44:46 <shachaf> oklopol: so did you figure out adjunctions
07:45:44 <oklopol> wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
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07:53:18 <oklopol> quicksort helper ~ {. [1 2 3] [4 8 9] [5 6 7] -> [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] }
07:53:18 <oklopol> quicksort helper ~ car; quicksort append
07:53:46 <oklopol> i like how you need to know exactly what you want to happen and write helper functions for random subprograms
07:57:35 <ion> I think they mean “transmission”. http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/451779723596490868/3CCEC987D1FC8666EEE0A0BB1B0C69EA5093FF0E/
07:59:31 <fizzie> Also "RE: (no subject)". That's some realism there.
08:02:37 <ion> and top-posting, too
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08:37:04 <lambdabot> fizzie asked 10h 17m 2s ago: Hey, do you Norweggers have some sort of logical rules when you use "på" and when "i" when you're explaining where someone/something is? (In Finnish the two suffixes -
08:37:05 <lambdabot> ssa/ssä and -lla/llä seem to be used pretty much randomly, but OTOH all Swedish examples I could think of were pretty logical; mostly "i", and then "på" for things like islands.)
08:38:31 <oerjan> @tell fizzie Sorry, i vs. på in norwegian place names is like a whole extra random gender... there are heuristics, but they sure aren't reliable.
08:40:10 <oerjan> @tel fizzie *gender system
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08:54:47 <S1> What was the language again where everything is a string?
08:56:17 <S1> Can't find that on the eso wiki
08:57:08 <ion> It’s not esoteric? ;-)
08:57:50 <oerjan> alternatively, thue, and a heap of variants of either.
08:58:19 <oerjan> (ok i guess /// has only one variant that i can recall)
08:58:25 <S1> Thue it was. /// is interesting though
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09:38:39 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> Every time I end up on an audiophile web-crawl I get this feeling maybe we should just get rid of ears in general.
09:38:45 <HackEgo> 1135) <fizzie> Every time I end up on an audiophile web-crawl I get this feeling maybe we should just get rid of ears in general.
09:54:43 <oerjan> @tell firefly <FireFly> Btw, is there an algebraic structure that captures the idea of 'complemet'? I've been thinking some about that <-- complement _alone_ seems to have no other algebraic property than c(c(x)) = x, which is called an _involution_.
09:55:57 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1m 13s ago: <FireFly> Btw, is there an algebraic structure that captures the idea of 'complemet'? I've been thinking some about that <-- complement _alone_ seems to have no other
09:55:57 <lambdabot> algebraic property than c(c(x)) = x, which is called an _involution_.
09:56:31 <FireFly> oerjan: I guess I should've been more specific, but it turns out what I was thinking of is a complemented lattice, I think
09:57:04 <oerjan> FireFly: in fact it's an example in wikipedia's involution page.
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10:23:57 <kmc> "A reasonably easy-to-find and vegetarian-friendly Indian restaurant in Umeda. Mina, the proprietress, speaks excellent English. Vegetarian curry is available on request.Note that this shop no longer exist. Set meals from ¥1554, curries from ¥1050, beers from ¥525."
10:24:01 <kmc> i love wikis
10:26:07 <kmc> <kmc> i wonder if x86 is turing complete with only instructions «mov dword [dest], imm» and «jmp [src]» but allowing self-mod
10:26:13 <kmc> ifying of those operands <-- well, I'm pretty sure it's not
10:26:27 <kmc> even ignoring the finite-pointer-size problem
10:26:44 <kmc> because a finite program will contain only a finite set of numbers and there's no way to make new numbers
10:29:08 <kmc> I still don't have a handle on whether "Turing complete except for finite memory" can be formalized as something other than "finite state machine", even though it's something people talk about all the time
10:29:57 <olsner> I usually think in terms of "would be turing complete given infinite memory"
10:30:01 <kmc> if you talk about your language interacting with an external tape device, then the language only needs to provide a finite state machine
10:31:02 <kmc> I guess to formalize a statement like "C is Turing complete" you would talk about a family of languages C_i where sizeof(void *) = i, and require that the languages have a uniform description (for example, a log-space TM that given i acts as an interpreter for C_i)
10:31:12 <kmc> similar to the way circuit complexity classes work
10:31:59 * oerjan wonders what the "log-space" is doing there.
10:32:05 <kmc> the problem is that "given infinite memory" doesn't have an obvious meaning in all cases, such as C where sizeof(void *) must be finite
10:32:26 <kmc> oerjan: shrug, it's standard for circuit classes, it shouldn't be necessary if we are talking only about computability and not complexity
10:32:30 <kmc> but "why not"
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10:34:15 <kmc> people talk about C being TC with fseek(SEEK_CUR) and ignoring ftell(), but I think that would be the case even if the core of C were a finite state machine with a fixed IO pipeline
10:34:26 <kmc> cause the control unit of a TM is a FSM
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10:37:52 <oerjan> so basically C is hideously overqualified to be TC "if you add infinite memory", and therefore that variation of TC-ness is uninteresting.
10:47:41 <olsner> maybe C is a bad benchmark because it's not even almost-TC (fsvo almost that's relevant for other languages)
10:49:38 <oerjan> that sounds... unlikely.
10:52:24 <kmc> what do you mean by it's not even almost-TC?
10:52:57 <oerjan> it's hard to imagine a language that is _more_ almost-TC without being TC.
10:53:59 <kmc> anyway I think "add a tape" doesn't work because then the language only needs to be a FSM
10:55:04 <kmc> you need to talk about extending the original language's storage primitives to accommodate unbounded storage, without changing their character
10:56:21 <kmc> more like jerkhammer
10:56:39 <kmc> have you ever used a jackhammer? well I haven't but I did use a hammer drill for a while
10:56:45 <kmc> that was p. fun
10:56:47 <kmc> for a few minutes anyway
10:58:11 <kmc> you see we had this tradition where the freshman build a fortified bunker in one of the dorms at the end of the school year
10:58:46 <kmc> and then all of the people who were really gung ho about this being a good idea skipped town immediately after
10:59:02 <kmc> and so it became my responsibility by default to demolish the bunker
10:59:20 <oerjan> and you haven't been the same since.
11:00:01 <kmc> or anyway a significant part of it, being a 10cm thick door-size slab of reïnforced concrete in a doorway
11:01:16 <kmc> we had a ```special trick''' which was to put some of the rebar inside conduit so that if you cut into the conduit with an angle grinder, you'll just spin the rebar inside it without cutting into the rebar
11:01:30 <kmc> another ```special trick''' was to put some shaving cream cans inside the concrete
11:02:48 <kmc> googling "10cm" finds on the first page "Is it true that the vagina is only 10 cm (3.9 inches) deep?"
11:03:04 <oerjan> confirmed: freshmen are insane
11:03:11 <kmc> ah yes "the vagina", the international reference vagina kept at the Bureau international des poids et mesures under precise climate control
11:03:58 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> googling "10cm" finds on the first page "Is it true that the vagina is only 10 cm (3.9 inches) deep?" <kmc> ah yes "the vagina", the international reference vagina kept at the Bureau international des poids et mesures under precise climate control
11:04:03 <HackEgo> 1136) <kmc> googling "10cm" finds on the first page "Is it true that the vagina is only 10 cm (3.9 inches) deep?" <kmc> ah yes "the vagina", the international reference vagina kept at the Bureau international des poids et mesures under precise climate control
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11:06:25 <kmc> oerjan: the house put significant effort into selecting the kind of freshman who think this sounds like a great idea
11:06:55 <kmc> should say "freshmen and freshwomen" although the colloquial "frosh" is nicely un-gendered
11:07:06 <kmc> ah, to be young again, and also a robot
11:07:31 <oerjan> @tell madbr <madbr> or something in the style of the collatz sequence <-- collatz functions, see our wiki. you are _not_ going to escape the "encoding a program" part when you prove something actually _is_ TC, though.
11:09:59 <oerjan> i guess that had to be futurama.
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13:01:52 <JesseH> New idea for a language. I call it BodyMindLang
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13:02:39 <boily> good true morning!
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13:32:31 * boily lobs a strangely misshapen, not-quite-from-this-Earth cranium over at lexande
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13:56:54 <boily> `unicode MOUNTAIN BICYCLIST
13:57:24 <HackEgo> [U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DEB5 DUNNO]
13:57:44 <boily> fizzie: nice dunno.
13:59:55 <fizzie> It's not very non-BMP-friendly, because of an UCS-2 Python build.
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14:13:11 <Bike> kmc: this coallier person seems pretty douchey, wtf
14:17:19 <HackEgo> [U+5317 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5317] [U+F963 CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-F963]
14:18:55 <JesseH> Oh my god, Bike you're a real person? Sorry for sitting on you mate
14:19:13 <Bike> i'm a real bike
14:19:26 <Bike> and a reeeeeal hero
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14:23:27 <Bike> whatever you say bike
14:23:36 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DSVDcw6iW8
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15:51:23 <boily> mrhmouse: Bike is everything. Bike is the Whole Experience of the Universe. Bike has two wheels.
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16:34:19 <Slereah_> Are the registers initialized at anything in particular in x86?
16:34:44 <Slereah_> I guess some are like the instruction pointer and such, but what about the rest
16:34:57 <Slereah_> Like the address of the stack and such
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16:40:00 <Slereah_> Are they at 0 on power on and initialized by the BIOS?
16:44:25 <mrhmouse> I thought the initial value was undefined...? Just some random value?
16:44:40 <int-e> A lot of it is defined.
16:45:19 <Slereah_> From what I remember they're condensators (kinda), so I would guess that either they are drained on power off or left at the old value
16:45:37 <int-e> The (somewhat dated) copy of the AMD64 Architecture Programming Manual has a section 14.1.3 Processor Initialisation state.
16:45:43 <Slereah_> And I don't know if it's initialized at anything by BIOS
16:45:50 <kmc> registers are static RAM so they're logic gates in a feedback configuration, not capacitors
16:45:57 <kmc> disclaimer: may be completely wrong
16:46:33 <kmc> at minimum CS will be initialized in addition to IP
16:46:44 <int-e> so CS is 0xF000, other segment registers are 0, RAX is 0, RDX contains some CPU ID information, other basic registers are 0 ...
16:46:58 <boily> they are either 0, 1, random, undefined, unknown or blueberry flavoured.
16:47:05 <int-e> and RIP is 0xFFF0.
16:47:19 <int-e> even flags are defined :)
16:47:25 <kmc> what's the CPU ID info useful for?
16:47:52 <int-e> RAX is the x86-64 64 bit version of AX/EAX.
16:48:08 <Slereah_> Most doc I've seen stops at 32
16:48:08 <kmc> some of the flags register must be defined to successfully execute an instruction
16:48:14 <kmc> like trap flag = 0
16:48:26 <int-e> In any case, those processor manuals are the right place to look up such information :)
16:49:09 <Slereah_> Also what exactly does the stack definition do in the assembly?
16:49:18 <Slereah_> The .stack 256 or whatever it may be
16:49:28 <kmc> oh, which assembler?
16:49:29 <int-e> (rflags is essentially set to 0, but there's a reserved bit that is forced to be 1 :) )
16:49:43 <Slereah_> I guess the general purpose is to define the size of the stack, but how does that translate in the processor?
16:49:46 <kmc> also has anyone seen the electrical datasheet for a current Intel / AMD processor? with like a thousand entry pinout list? :)
16:49:49 <kmc> are those public?
16:50:00 <Slereah_> I guess they're public enough?
16:50:03 <kmc> Slereah_: no, what assembler program
16:50:11 <kmc> Slereah_: well have you seen one?
16:50:25 <kmc> u make an ass out of u and me
16:50:26 <Slereah_> Otherwise it might be hard to program anything on them
16:50:47 <kmc> I think I have seen the pinout list for a recent-ish socket, but not a full datasheet
16:50:51 <Slereah_> The examples I see are usually in Borland C
16:51:02 <kmc> Slereah_: no, the architecture manuals are enough to do programming
16:51:14 <kmc> you don't need to know the electrical specifications of the particular chip your code is executing on
16:51:21 <kmc> ...usually
16:51:43 <int-e> right. no I have not seen any detailed electrical datasheets. Then again, I've never really looked for them.
16:51:51 <kmc> but if you look up the datasheet for (say) an 8-bit AVR microcontroller, it has info both on "this instruction does that" and also "this pin needs this many volts"
16:52:30 <Slereah_> Don't they have to give such things to the patent office?
16:52:42 <int-e> Yeah, but with those guys (embedded processors) you are you are quite likely to be your own motherboard manufacturer.
16:53:07 <kmc> patents are pretty general, you don't need to submit detailed specs of every product which invokes the patent, I don't think
16:53:20 <Slereah_> You never know with those fucks
16:53:53 <int-e> Slereah_: only if you patent them, and even then you don't have to describe anything at the packaging level (which pin does what). And you can split features into many patents (signaling on busses, communicating with memory, etc.)
16:54:11 <kmc> Slereah_: and I don't know about your .stack; googling with "borland C" doesn't find anything, and it's not something I recall from any assembler I've used
16:54:33 <kmc> hm, MASM has a .STACK: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bffws6w0(v=vs.71).aspx
16:54:46 <Slereah_> http://prism2.mem.drexel.edu/~rares/asm4.htm < for instance
16:54:57 <shachaf> mr-: Yes, but I'm not sure that it helps much in this case.
16:55:06 <Slereah_> Apparently the MODEL describes where the code and data are stored
16:55:11 <kmc> so it's probably more of a linker directive, which tells the linker how much space to reserve for the stack
16:55:21 <int-e> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bffws6w0%28v=vs.110%29.aspx
16:55:39 <Slereah_> I guess STACK initializes the stack base and allocates some memory up to 266*4 in that case?
16:55:39 <int-e> it probably ends up in bytes 10-11 of an EXE file, http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/exe/
16:55:47 <kmc> and puts something in the .EXE saying what the initial value of SS:SP is?
16:56:02 <int-e> (obviously that's old DOS EXE files, not the sille PE ones we have nowadays)
16:56:34 <kmc> I bet that with .COM files you're not allowed to use .STACK because you're stuck in the TINY memory model anyway
16:56:45 <kmc> speaking of PE executables: http://blog.theincredibleholk.org/blog/2013/11/18/booting-to-rust/
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16:56:59 <kmc> boot to Rust via UEFI, with no assembly
16:57:06 <int-e> (I say "probably" because the 8086 segmented addressing model has so much aliasing)
16:58:09 <int-e> kmc: it could still be a declaration that a linker can use to check whether everything (code, data, declared stack) fite into 65300 bytes (256 bytes go to the PCB (process control block)).
16:58:35 <kmc> but would it also emit code to initialize SS:SP?
16:58:46 <int-e> what for? the OS does that for the program
16:58:49 <kmc> I think DOS does that for you to a fixed point, probably just the end of that 64k
16:59:04 <int-e> based on the header fields, or just SP=0xFFFE for a COM file.
16:59:08 <kmc> but yeah, I guess the checking is still potentially useful
16:59:55 <int-e> that said, I'm not sure whether .stack is allowed in the .tiny model :) It's been a while ...
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17:00:21 <Slereah_> Also most documents seem pretty vague on how many registers there are
17:00:33 <Slereah_> There's the basic ones described by most
17:00:44 <Slereah_> Then control registers and debug???
17:00:49 <kmc> the answer is "a fuckload"
17:00:56 <int-e> again, processor manuals are the source to go to (but have a history of not talking about all registers *anyway*)
17:01:06 <kmc> yes read the manual
17:01:35 <Slereah_> I think the less manual-y question is "is it a good idea to access them"
17:01:56 <kmc> in particular, read the bit of the Intel manual where it talks about the VMX virtualization feature, because that describes the layout of an in-memory struct used to save/restore ~all state from a VM
17:02:10 <Bike> this is x86? i don't think there's like, a mov-word-to-flags-reg ability
17:02:16 <kmc> including some things that aren't directly accessible, like the segment descriptor which was loaded when a segment selector was last set
17:02:27 <kmc> Bike: there's lahf / sahf
17:02:31 <int-e> Bike: there is lah...
17:02:40 <kmc> Slereah_: "good idea" depends on what you're trying to do..........................................................................
17:02:41 <Bike> right, of course there is
17:03:04 <kmc> Slereah_: control registers are essential to the operation of a typical operating system
17:03:04 <Slereah_> Well currently mostly trying to get a feel of Assembly
17:03:14 <kmc> but are invisible to userspace code
17:03:14 <Bike> SAHF: Welcome to Stewards for Affordable Housing for the Future
17:03:15 <Slereah_> I'll probably stick with the usual registers from now on
17:03:27 <kmc> they set things like, where in physical memory does the page table live
17:03:48 <kmc> debug registers are useful for debugging, e.g. breakpoint when a particular memory address is accessed
17:04:00 <int-e> Bike: obviously the mnemonics are for "load ah register from flags" and "store ah registers into flags"
17:04:10 <Bike> yeah i looked it up
17:04:17 <Bike> unrelatedly, it's hard to take toilet day seriously, i blame sgeo
17:04:18 <kmc> they too can only be directly manipulated by ring-0 (i.e. kernel-mode) code
17:04:30 <kmc> a typical OS will provide some interface like ptrace() for using those debug registers
17:04:32 <Bike> what's weird about it
17:04:33 <Slereah_> If they're just mnemonics for opcodes, why are most of them so cryptic
17:04:44 <Slereah_> I guess back then it was to save space, but nowadays?
17:06:00 <Bike> are you saying PCLMULQDQ isn't immediately obvious
17:06:22 <Slereah_> Well that one is obvious, but who would guess that mov is move
17:08:42 <int-e> or that jmp is branch ;-)
17:08:43 <kmc> Slereah_: the regs you're likely to see in user code are: R[ABCD]X RSI RDI RSP RBP and their sub-components; RIP (in RIP-relative memory addressing), flags (implicitly for the most part), x87 FPU registers ST0 through ST7, MMX registers MM0 through MM7, SSE registers XMM0 through XMM15
17:09:01 <kmc> and segment selectors, mostly only FS and GS these days
17:09:09 <int-e> (though honestly, making 'b' the mnemonic for 'branch' isn't all that sane either.)
17:09:30 <Slereah_> kmc : All the R's I saw in most documents, the rest I have no idea!
17:09:43 <kmc> int-e: oh yeah duh
17:10:11 <Slereah_> But well I guess I'll stick with simple things for now
17:10:20 <kmc> sounds good
17:10:37 <Slereah_> Also I saw that it's not too complicated to access the PC speaker, which is neat
17:10:56 * int-e hands Slereah_ some black ink and lead,
17:10:57 <kmc> in 16-bit code you're more likely to use the segment overrides
17:11:09 <kmc> anyway yeah you should probably keep learning rather than listening to me recite lists :)
17:11:35 <int-e> fs: is used for thread-local storage :)
17:12:09 <Bike> assembly code in calligraphy
17:14:01 <Slereah_> I got "flat assembler" for assemblin', I'd better see the syntax there
17:14:51 <int-e> hmm, is nasm still maintained?
17:15:06 <Slereah_> Really I thought Assembler would be much worse than it is
17:15:09 <kmc> "real men" jokes are distasteful because tying this or that skill to masculinity is problematic
17:15:23 <Slereah_> But it has constants, procedures and control structures :o
17:16:12 <Slereah_> It's basically C with a slightly more distasteful handling of variables
17:16:32 <kmc> people make a big deal about x86 being so complicated but it's not that hard when you're writing it yourself, as opposed to understanding what a compiler has spit out
17:16:45 <kmc> much of the complexity works in the favor of the assembly author
17:17:05 <Slereah_> I guess reading binary might be tough, yeah
17:17:14 <kmc> well you disassemble it
17:17:21 <kmc> but you lose a lot of context
17:17:24 <Slereah_> How are the jump instructions translated, by the way?
17:17:34 <kmc> Slereah_: typically an offset in bytes
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17:17:52 <kmc> one of the main things an assembler provides is resolving those labels into byte offsets
17:17:54 <Slereah_> Is the jump point translated as the address of that point?
17:17:56 <int-e> (Assembler documentation like http://www.nasm.us/pub/nasm/releasebuilds/2.11rc1/doc/nasmdoc.pdf can also be a viable source for learning about processor features.)
17:17:56 <kmc> or absolute addresses depending
17:18:30 <kmc> (and one of the main things a linker provides is, deferring that process)
17:18:57 <kmc> (such that you can compile/assemble many files independently into something that's like machine code but still has jump targets in a symbolic form, and then link them all together quickly)
17:19:08 <Bike> one time i tried reading 6502 asm that had this convention where you could put * next to a line, and then "jmp ++" would mean "jump to the second line ahead with a *", etc. that was quite confusing
17:19:47 <kmc> GNU as has something like that; you can write numeric labels 1: or 2: and then jmp to them as 1f (meaning "next 1:") or 1b (meaning "previous 1:")
17:19:58 <kmc> very useful for inline assembly
17:20:16 <int-e> Oh. A puzzle for Slereah: figure out the difference between jmp short foo and jmp near foo. (Not quite serious.)
17:20:31 <Bike> so like for a loop you'd have "* ...loop body... jump-if-test -;"
17:20:43 <kmc> Slereah_: I find an absolutely vital tool for understanding assembly is to run a disassembler on the output
17:21:09 <kmc> then you see what instructions were really encoded, with machine code and mnemonics side by side
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17:25:32 <Slereah_> I assume all the header shit is either preprocessor shit or initialization?
17:25:57 <Bike> header in the assembly source or in the binary?
17:26:12 <Slereah_> Like replacing the constants and initilizing the segment registers and such
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17:36:04 <Slereah_> I wonder if anyone ever made some hardware cellular automaton
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17:41:29 <kmc> ask google
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17:42:44 <Slereah_> http://www.univ-orleans.fr/lifo/Members/Jerome.Durand-Lose/Recherche/Publications/1996_RT-LIP_1996-01.pdf
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18:01:19 <mroman_> I don't see what'd be hard at doing cellular automatons in Hardware
18:02:13 <Bike> are we talking 'lay out a circuit' hardware or 'with a processor but no particular OS' hardware
18:02:18 <Bike> either way it seems simple enough
18:02:45 <mroman_> 'lay out a circuit' I assume
18:03:51 <Bike> i should really figure out the VGA driver on my FPGA so i could try that>_>
18:04:11 <mroman_> doing it efficiently is probably hard
18:05:00 <Bike> is it that hard? you'd just need a little register, and inputs from the clock and the neighborhood, for each cell
18:05:17 <Bike> i mean, something like hashlife would be hard, of course
18:06:18 <mroman_> you could just use some sram
18:06:35 <mroman_> store some 2D stuff in there
18:07:31 <mroman_> depends on how much storage you need
18:07:46 <Bike> well what kind of automata do you like, Slereah_
18:07:57 <mroman_> it'd be even easier with a 1D automaton
18:08:21 <mroman_> that would just fit neatly into a single bitstream
18:08:59 <Bike> i did wolfram automata on a shitty calculator once. surely hardware can't be harder
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18:12:14 <mroman_> if you can program it you can also program it in vhdl
18:12:18 <mroman_> and if you can program it in vhdl
18:13:28 <Taneb> Going to university has made me realise that while I'm not the best programmer, this channel has set me up with a brilliant background knowledge of the theoretical side of CS
18:14:04 <Bike> great, so you can help us analyze the time complexity of this thing
18:14:05 <mroman_> then you can only imagine how I feel here ;)
18:14:26 <shachaf> Bike: i've analyzed it and the time complexity is "very" hth
18:14:34 <mroman_> I assume I'm the dumbest person in this channel.
18:16:51 <Bike> let's see, module pt (input clk, input [7:0] neighborhood, output [...] out); reg [...] state; assign out = state; always @(posedge clk) state <= ...some function of state and neighborhood...; endmodule
18:16:55 <Bike> and i think that's about it.
18:17:15 <Bike> just make a couple thousand of those and it's all good
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18:19:57 <Bike> i dunno vhdl ;(
18:20:22 <mroman_> Everywhere where you'd expect not to put a semicolon
18:20:27 <mroman_> just put a fucking semicolon there
18:20:36 <mroman_> everywhere where you'd put a comma
18:20:42 <mroman_> try putting a semicolon first
18:21:23 <ais523\unfoog> I think there is a context that uses commas, though
18:21:34 <Bike> both of them are frickin verbose
18:21:42 <mroman_> other list-like stuff uses semicolon as a seperator
18:22:08 <mroman_> but it's illegal to put a semicolon at the end of such a list
18:22:21 <mroman_> that's one exception to the previously stated rules
18:22:43 <mroman_> I think there's one place where you have to write
18:23:05 <mroman_> and there's a place where you have to write GENERIC (); MAP ();
18:24:28 <Bike> obviously i should just get zzo to give me money for an open source neuromorphic fpga, and then i can make my own synthesizer for my own language, w/ blackjack & hookers
18:27:06 <mroman_> It ain't a party with just one hooker .
18:28:02 <Bike> mostly blackjack, practically speaking
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18:29:43 <mroman_> I'd love to see a vhdl synthesizer that can produce plans for mechanical hardware
18:30:50 <Bike> piñón is apparently pine nuts?
18:31:02 <Bike> and i have an esolang idea that's basically that (or rather the vhdl equivalent)
18:31:12 <Bike> since like, digital operations are hard.
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18:31:52 <mroman_> Mechanical Computers don't need energy when they're not doing stuff .
18:32:36 <mroman_> apparentely the word for that is crank
18:33:03 <Bike> well, real mechanical computers usually used motor drives, since you need it to have an exact speed
18:33:08 <Bike> cranks were just used for input
18:33:34 <mroman_> I'd love to have a steam powered super computer
18:33:45 <Bike> steam?? this is the 1940s
18:33:50 <mroman_> or whoever is currently leading in this cyber d*** contest
18:33:52 <Bike> i mean, you could use steam if you wanted, i guess
18:34:05 <Bike> just anything that can get you a steadily turning gear.
18:34:09 <Bike> you need that for integrators.
18:34:09 <mroman_> I don't know when steam got old
18:34:52 <Bike> depends on what you mean by steam, i guess... the obvious nuclear reactor design which i think is still used is basically steam
18:36:06 <Bike> anyway i don't really know what real mechanical computers used, i'm pretty sure that by wwii they were basically on diesel
18:37:14 <Bike> power source isn't terribly important though, the trick is making the components have enough accuracy
18:37:28 <Bike> lemme tell you, CVTs are some weird-ass shit to make
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18:56:50 <FreeFull> Balanced ternary electronic computers are so much simpler
19:02:58 <Taneb> Controversy at the university of York as HackSoc, the university's computer science society, declares an upcoming game-making society to be stepping on their toes
19:03:43 <ais523\unfoog> Taneb: that sort of thing never happens at Birmingham, it's considered an advantage to be able to get away with having two basically identical societies
19:04:18 <Taneb> ais523\unfoog, doesn't Birmingham have like 5 universities
19:04:41 <ais523\unfoog> yeah, but only one is the University of Birmingham
19:04:52 <Taneb> Actually, York has two and a half universities
19:05:07 <ais523\unfoog> also two of them only became classified as universities recently
19:05:35 <Taneb> (University of York, York St John University, and Hull York Medical School)
19:05:52 <Taneb> (and strictly speaking the last one is half part of the first one)
19:07:09 <Taneb> And also half part of the University of Hull
19:08:15 <Taneb> But the University of York has one of the highest duck to student ratios of any university in the world!
19:12:02 <ion> http://doctorbeet.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/lg-smart-tvs-logging-usb-filenames-and.html
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19:50:26 <mroman_> labeling long horizontal lines "Horizontal long lines" is genius
19:50:38 <mroman_> @figure 4 of that high speed harware automaton paper
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20:01:42 <tertu> i think the zuse z1 had an electric motor
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20:07:43 <ion> What paper?
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20:34:22 <metasepia> Your divination: "Humbling" to "Swallowing"
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21:21:49 <metasepia> Your divination: "Stripping" to "Swallowing"
21:22:43 <shachaf> fungot: you're way better than metasepia
21:22:44 <fungot> shachaf: 1.8.5 would allocate 128 bytes per loop.)
21:22:53 <shachaf> fungot: and way better than lambdabot
21:22:54 <fungot> shachaf: and it still seems like an odd goal, which is deterministic, it just requires making your eval support a fnord flag for fnord would just muck up the puzzle
21:23:01 <shachaf> fungot: especially with the new management!!
21:23:02 <fungot> shachaf: abum hehe i've done that kind of sh1t hasn't happened in linux for graphics pretty much all sedative drugs, very similar to the list
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21:24:35 <mrhmouse> shachaf: is fungot better than ruddy?
21:24:35 <fungot> mrhmouse: yes... i see someone who is in almost as many channels as you're in, you can do
21:24:42 <shachaf> fungot is better than ruddy
21:24:42 <fungot> shachaf: hm. so you're golden.
21:24:43 <ruddy> yes... i see someone who is in almost as many channels as you're in, you can do
21:25:14 <mrhmouse> well, I can't argue with golden
21:29:03 <shachaf> int-e: how come i'm not in the lambdabot admins list
21:30:44 <int-e> I took elliott's list of admins.
21:31:04 <boily> shachaf: don't diss my lovely bot.
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21:32:09 <fungot> shachaf: if i'm going north or south" i am part of the ' offcuts' of several famous single malts.
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21:32:26 <fungot> shachaf: ( cadr fnord) doesn't properly clear the screen correctly: just scheme code in a module are statically decidable. regexes, otoh... would be very helpful
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21:33:59 <fizzie> I'd be slightly surprised if (cadr fnord) did clear the screen.
21:34:00 <int-e> shachaf: and I don't think we're short on lambdabot admins, are we?
21:34:30 <shachaf> int-e: You'd be surprised.
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22:06:31 <fizzie> That's weird. Told mplayer to play a .mp3 file, and it's showing a 88x31 "video" of the CC-BY-NC-SA license logo banner icon thing.
22:07:10 <mrhmouse> fizzie: are the file contents actually MP3 format?
22:07:34 <fizzie> According to 'file', sure.
22:07:42 <fizzie> "Audio file with ID3 version 2.3.0, contains: MPEG ADTS, layer III, v1, 128 kbps, 44.1 kHz, JntStereo"
22:08:03 <fizzie> I guess it's some curious ID3 image thing, but I've never seen that happen before.
22:08:18 <fizzie> Also it keeps complaining, though it plays just fine.
22:08:41 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KEIN and so on.
22:08:52 <fizzie> Not just one but three "video" streams.
22:09:21 <fizzie> Must be some kind of a mplayer2 thing, I don't recall the old one ever "playing" ID3 tag images.
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22:36:46 <shachaf> oerjan: imo add chu spaces to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_space#Specializations_and_generalizations
22:37:47 <shachaf> imo i don't remember my wikipedia password
22:38:01 <ion> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=599852
22:38:17 <oerjan> imo ask them to send it to your email
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22:43:20 <Bike> http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/11/19/scientists-confirm-existence-of-moon/ "Scientists Confirm Existence of Moon"
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23:15:44 <Taneb> I forgot how sad Interstella 5555 was
23:16:30 <Bike> what if i value sadness more than happiness.
23:16:47 <Bike> yeah. one of em dies
23:16:57 <Taneb> It's an anime opera by Daft Punk about space smurfs
23:17:05 <Bike> god damn it i have one more time stuck in my head now
23:18:14 <mrhmouse> Taneb: have you seen Grave of the Fireflies?
23:18:19 <Taneb> mrhmouse, I have not
23:18:24 <Taneb> Is that an opera by Daft Punk
23:19:15 <Bike> it's my understanding that if interstella 5555 is sad grave of the fireflies will convince you to hang yourself halfway through the film
23:19:15 <mrhmouse> But no, it's a film by Isao Takahata
23:19:40 <mrhmouse> Bike: that sounds about right. you might be understating it
23:19:47 <Bike> well, i've never seen it.
23:20:17 <Bike> don't really intend to either, god knows i've seen enough sad world wars in snow
23:20:51 <Taneb> I've seen enough sad things this century
23:21:45 <mrhmouse> GofF is pretty high on my "my face is leaking please help" list
23:22:53 <Taneb> I don't think we can call GotF "sad" because otherwise by comparison nothing else is sad ever
23:23:19 <Bike> actually, gotf makes me think of another japanese film i haven't seen that's probbly near the same level
23:23:30 <Bike> or at least, it's nine hours of a socialist getting eaten alive by the IJA
23:23:46 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Condition_(film_series)
23:25:37 <mrhmouse> outside of the subject of war, the only other film content that's made me that sad was season 2 (or 3?) of the Dr. Who reboot. But that was some time ago.
23:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> doctor who lost the ability to evoke any emotion in me other than cringe long ago
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23:39:13 <mrhmouse> mind you, I haven't seen anything past Tennant.. so I'm not sure if that still holds.
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02:43:00 <ais523\unfoog> because it always knows whether the LHS is a struct or a pointer to struct
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02:48:24 <Sgeo> Feels a bit implicit-castish
02:48:33 <Sgeo> Although not sure if it's really a problem
02:48:41 <Sgeo> When would you want to actually . on the pointer?
02:50:54 <ais523\unfoog> Sgeo: you can't . on a pointer in C, which is why it works
02:56:47 <ais523\unfoog> over the last few days I've been working on NetHack 4
02:56:58 <ais523\unfoog> and more generally, I've been working on my PhD thesis
02:57:17 <quintopia> damn you're still survivng academia. wow.
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03:01:51 <quintopia> sounds lame. you're like pretty close to myy age right?
03:05:44 <JesseH> I tried to erase the content from my Derplang page, but it came back one day...
03:05:50 <JesseH> Not sure what to do about this.
03:06:02 <JesseH> Because im getting ready to do derplang 2, and its a big change up.
03:09:06 <ais523\unfoog> JesseH: you can't delete a page by blanking it, that just leaves a blank page which confuses people
03:09:22 <JesseH> because the old derplang is still fun to use
03:09:23 <ais523\unfoog> I can delete pages given a good reason, but there isn't an obvious good reason to delete that one
03:09:48 <JesseH> But derplang 2 wouldnt belong on the esoteric site, because its less esoteric this time...a lot less
03:09:56 <JesseH> Improved syntactic sugar ^_^
03:10:18 <JesseH> I would have changed the name but i am horrible with names.
03:10:59 <quintopia> why would you make a language that is actually useful and convenient
03:11:11 <JesseH> because I haven't done that yet
03:11:39 <JesseH> The joy comes in writing it
03:11:54 <JesseH> I doubt people other than myself would use it...
03:12:27 <JesseH> Python didnt start off at version 2.7
03:12:30 <quintopia> but implementing a real full on language
03:12:43 <JesseH> Sure its painful, but its fun too
03:13:01 <JesseH> Like paintball, airsoft, or angry sex
03:13:27 <quintopia> that's a very esolangal motivation
03:13:46 <quintopia> i don't think it's the fun kind of pain
03:14:54 <quintopia> the guy who figured out how to write actual functional algorithms in malbolge got to see the fun kind of pain
03:15:05 <Sgeo> https://github.com/marcelog/jsonex/blob/2.0/lib/jsonex.ex
03:15:20 <JesseH> trying to implement languages has been more fun than using esolangs :P
03:15:26 <JesseH> But maybe I havent found the right language to use
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03:18:12 <quintopia> JesseH: try implementing an esolang in another esolang!
03:34:58 <JesseH> quintopia, thats a terrible idea ....
03:36:37 <JesseH> Someone help me find an esoteric language that could be used for general purpose stuff if one was dedicated enough
03:36:51 <Sgeo> I'm having some trouble torturing norns
03:40:47 <Sgeo> Bike: what was it that made you horrified? My putting norn brains into the body of a toy, or my experimenting with how much ATP decoupler a norn could tolerate?
03:40:54 <Sgeo> Or something else I forget
03:41:32 <Bike> i don't remember
03:41:40 <Bike> i also don't remember if i was actually horrified or just being silly
03:41:57 <JesseH> Your name fascinates me
03:42:09 <Bike> it's not really an uncommon word
03:42:16 <Sgeo> JesseH: fungot is written in Befunge
03:42:16 <fungot> Sgeo: what is lambda?) on windows, have a bunch of empty cd-rs. err...
03:42:57 <Sgeo> Befunge-98 allows for plugins to the language, I think
03:44:31 <lifthrasiir> you cannot use more than 26 commands at any given time (there are some ways to work around but limited)
03:45:52 <JesseH> What are your favorite esolangs?
03:47:30 <ais523\unfoog> Underload; BF Joust; various functional-ish ones that haven't been fully worked out yet
03:47:51 <ais523\unfoog> I'm kind-of an esolang narcsissist, I tend to prefer esolangs I created myself
03:48:03 <ais523\unfoog> but that's mostly because I aim to create the sort of esolangs I like
03:48:50 <JesseH> link me to your esolangs so i can see if im interested
03:49:07 <JesseH> I would google but i need to go scavenge for good
03:51:40 <ais523\unfoog> JesseH: there's a list on http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ais523
03:53:10 <ais523\unfoog> not as many as cpressey did (he also has a good eye for interesting esolangs)
03:54:03 <JesseH> Oooo minimax looks nice
03:54:44 <JesseH> backflip looks painfil
03:56:05 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Black
04:02:08 <Sgeo> I should try to get a grasp of the Erlang OTP
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04:20:08 <ion> I recommend it.
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04:23:06 <quintopia> i have just come upon the greatest bug ever in my life
04:26:30 <quintopia> i'm writing a program to draw a circle in SELECT.
04:26:45 <quintopia> it works great for 20 evenly spaced points on a circle
04:28:26 <quintopia> it transposes the bottom and top thirds (breaking it at the points corresponding to the angles tau/8, 3tau/8, 5tau/8) just enough to make a funny tesselatable bowtie. and instead of halting after drawing it, it goes and draws it again in the opposite direction, apparently forever
04:29:03 <quintopia> no idea why the imaginary part keeps getting translated like that
04:31:12 <quintopia> ah. well let's see. i'll run it again. (it should be perfectly reproducible...everything involved is determinstic)
04:33:08 <Sgeo> Well, that makes me scared to try BEAM languages...
04:33:11 <quintopia> i suspect it's some mpmath weirdness
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04:39:43 <doesthiswork> what's the smallest number of points it appears in
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04:41:32 <Sgeo> Bike: the Erlang VM thingy
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04:58:08 <JesseH> My favorite esoteric language....Perl
04:58:43 <Bike> JesseH: that's basically the first joke about esolangs. we all made it at one point
04:58:53 <ais523\unfoog> frequently people make an unfunny "joke" where they just mash some keys on their keyboard and claim it's valid Perl
04:58:59 <ais523\unfoog> and I decode it, stopping at the first syntax error
04:59:10 <Bike> ais, meanwhile, is just an astonishing person
04:59:18 <JesseH> Bike, which is why i had to make it...its my initiation.
04:59:54 <ais523\unfoog> I didn't make that joke about Perl, as far as I know
05:00:16 <Bike> does egobot have a pstlog too?
05:00:19 <JesseH> Wait there are more esolang jokes?
05:00:29 <Bike> JesseH: don't worry, they're all terrible
05:00:56 <oklopol> ais523\unfoog: iajsdfijasdfijsdklfjasfjiowejfoiwejfiowejiofjweiofjwefjkjdlfjwf
05:00:59 <Bike> in fact i think i made a joke about how bad jokes are once.
05:01:06 <Bike> `quote Bike.*joke
05:01:08 <HackEgo> 871) <Bike> i don't even know anything about feather and i'm getting sick of the time travel jokes \ 1034) <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes? <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
05:01:10 <oklopol> there's a valid perl expression for you
05:01:26 <ais523\unfoog> although not particularly interesting, it just returns a string literal
05:01:43 <doesthiswork> well there is a paper showing that the number of errors some cs students made were not significantly different with perl and a language with random symbols (there was a significant difference between the random one and a control language)
05:02:00 <HackEgo> 2010-03-01.txt:01:53:52: <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh
05:02:02 <ais523\unfoog> doesthiswork: that was busted, they were given some really old Perl 4 with bad style
05:02:17 <ais523\unfoog> haha, EgoBot has the "perl is an esolang" joke too?
05:02:29 <ais523\unfoog> !perl print iajsdfijasdfijsdklfjasfjiowejfoiwejfiowejiofjweiofjwefjkjdlfjwf
05:02:31 <Bike> `pastelogs esoteric.*Perl
05:02:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16918
05:02:58 <Bike> it's cool how i'm going to get like ten results of people doing this same log search
05:03:17 <doesthiswork> ais523 I thought the complaint was not "modern" style, meaning it has been accepted style at one point
05:03:26 <JesseH> What do you call a tailor who talks too much?
05:03:26 <Bike> «#esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org» aw yeah, right there in the topic.
05:03:35 <Bike> ais523\unfoog: oh, i didn't know that... i wanted the paste though.
05:03:41 <ais523\unfoog> doesthiswork: yeah, but in an old version of Perl wher the modern style didn't exist
05:04:05 <JesseH> They say that perl always existed.
05:04:15 <JesseH> You can see signs of this in cave paintings
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05:04:44 <doesthiswork> and the perl students did make few errors, it just wasn't enough fewer to be significant
05:05:05 <Bike> hypothesis: computer scientists are even worse at stats than psychologists
05:05:32 <ais523\unfoog> apparently, past-me was very enamoured of trying to create an eso derivative of Perl
05:06:12 <Bike> «2009-01-03.txt:22:14:38: -!- klslvoeoe changed the topic of #esoteric to: you can subtract your mom from my dick because she's old and you're a stupid fuckface! now LEARN C or say perl! stop being esoteric asswads» fascinating
05:06:26 <Bike> was this like, an actual troll
05:06:58 <doesthiswork> bike: all the stats I've seen have generally been fine
05:06:59 <ais523\unfoog> our usual response to obvious trolls is countertrolling
05:07:16 <ais523\unfoog> I know once I kicked one like ten times in a row, no ban, out of morbid curiosity as to when they'd give up and stop bothering
05:07:43 <Bike> wow, this joke language perl thing was in the topic for years
05:08:40 <ais523\unfoog> when I first joined, it'd be very rare for the "devlopment and deployment" bit to not be in the topic
05:08:58 <Bike> «% w3m -dump http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | awk '{print $6}' | tail -n +22 | perl -ne 's/K/* 1024/; print int(eval($_) + .5), "\n"' | squish 140 | sparkline» elliott what the hell
05:09:22 <quintopia> doesthiswork: it reproduces at all resolutions. but it halts successfully on the small ones.
05:11:09 <Bike> hm, this leads to another question i've been wondering about.
05:11:10 <quintopia> okay it seems to be a function of canvas size. it happens all the time at 101x101, but never for 51x51
05:12:18 <Bike> `pastelog [Mm]ath[- _]?[Nn]erd
05:12:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22864
05:13:01 <Bike> oh, it's all one person, huh.
05:13:05 <Bike> `pastelog [Mm]ath[- _]?[Nn]erd[^3]
05:13:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32067
05:13:36 <Bike> why does that look like a GY!BE song title to me...
05:15:49 <quintopia> okay so...i think i've tracked it down. cool. raising numbers to big powers results in weirdness.
05:16:13 <Bike> you're raising numbers to big powers for circle drawing?
05:23:30 <quintopia> you raise numbers to big powers for everythin in SELECT.
05:23:52 <Bike> you'd think it would have better support then...
05:23:54 <quintopia> i just set the default tape value to very very close to 1 and it solved the problem.
05:25:35 <quintopia> Bike: well, it would have better support if someone besides me had written the interpreter i guess. i'm counting on mpmath to handle the math, but apparently some of the calculations i need require such immense precision i would have to develop my own algorithms to handle the math if i wanted it to be able to work for any base value.
05:27:28 <Bike> probably you should switch to a repeated exponent representation
05:28:18 <Bike> kind of still not sure where huge exponents come up though... you just need to divide 2pi doncha
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05:34:43 <quintopia> perhaps you should go read the spec
05:35:42 <quintopia> what is this repeated exponent representation
05:37:36 <Bike> well, i saw it said double precision floats, but that's boring
05:39:45 <Bike> as for representation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_level-index_arithmetic
05:41:13 <quintopia> i'm not using double-precision. i'm using "select your own precision". i've been running my test code at p=100 decimal digits
05:41:31 <CADD> ais523\unfoog: although that joke is a bad joke, there are other real criticizms of perl (not a perl expert), such as the fact that all lists are automatically flattened.
05:44:20 <Bike> but i mean, all you need to do for a circle is exp(0*2pi/20), exp(1*2pi/20), etc, right
05:44:25 <ais523\unfoog> CADD: the correct criticism there should be "lists and references to lists are distinct firstish-class values"
05:45:02 <CADD> ais523\unfoog: lol, fair enough. i dont know enough about perl to give a proper criticism
05:45:08 <ais523\unfoog> Perl is saner if you only ever create lists as a result of dereferencing a reference to a list (you might want to make an exception for function arguments, but in a sanely designed Perl you wouldn't need one)
05:45:40 <ais523\unfoog> recent Perls have been moving towards allowing you to write programs in that style, but it's still experimental
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05:46:00 <ais523\unfoog> anyway, the issue is not that lists flatten, because a Perl list is not what most languages call a list, and it's sensible that it flattens
05:46:38 <CADD> ais523\unfoog: lists you mean?
05:47:10 <CADD> ais523\unfoog: im not sure what you mean by that
05:47:26 <Sgeo> "In fact, if you can avoid the whole procedure (which will be called relup from now on) and do simple rolling upgrades by restarting VMs and booting new applications, I would recommend you do so. Relups should be one of these 'do or die' tools. Something you use when you have few more choices."
05:47:47 <Sgeo> But I want to use Erlang [VM] hotswapping for development, so I don't have to restart the development instance when I make a code change
05:48:07 <quintopia> Bike: that's exactly what i'm doing. but then i have to scale it to the canvas size. and multiplication in SELECT. uses the rule x*y=logK((k^x)^y). so for a radius 50, i have to raise k^50 to one of those numbers you wrote above. it gets even worse if you have to add.
05:48:34 <ais523\unfoog> both are useful, and widely used; neither would be useful nor widely used if Perl didn't insist on trying to use non-reference lists for so much
05:48:52 <Bike> quintopia: sounds like representing exponentiations explicitly would help a lot, then...
05:50:35 <CADD> ais523\unfoog: well, no language is perfect. an i guess here we revel in that fact.. :)
05:51:58 <quintopia> Bike: yes. SLI looks nice. too bad there are no python libraries that have it implemented for complex numbers and such.
05:53:28 <Bike> quintopia: i think you could do it yourself? i mean, just basically have a nuber class that's a fractional float plus an integer. probably.
05:53:47 <Bike> but SELECT, that lets you use different bases, doesn't it
05:53:54 <quintopia> i could try. and lose even more of my life to coding
05:54:22 <Bike> i feel i should point out you're drawing a circle in a brainfuck derivative based on exponentation
05:55:06 <quintopia> i can move on to other more pressing things in my life
05:55:17 <quintopia> maybe i'll come back and write mandelbrot sometime
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06:29:48 <shachaf> zomg chu spaces: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebras_canonically_defined#Truth_tables
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07:49:29 <fizzie> http://data.aalto.fi/ <- so modern! (I didn't know we had a thing like that.)
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08:26:05 <ion> Vihart: How I Feel About Logarithms http://youtu.be/N-7tcTIrers
08:32:51 <fizzie> Hey, algorithm is an anagram of logarithm.
08:35:53 <fizzie> > and $ zipWith (==) (sort "algorithm") (sort "logarithm") -- just checking
08:36:19 <ion> > sort "algorithm" == sort "logarithm" -- a.k.a.
08:39:17 <Deewiant> > on (==) sort "algorithm" "logarithm" -- DRY
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10:36:51 <oerjan> wow, that command actually works
10:37:25 <oerjan> !slashes Does this work now?
10:48:04 <oerjan> <Bike> as for representation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_level-index_arithmetic <-- neat
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12:12:20 <S1> What happened to the EsoAPI? All I was able to find was the link from the EsoAPI article on esolang
12:12:41 <S1> which was http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoAPI and http://kidsquid.99k.org/programs/esoapi/esoapi.html
12:22:11 <fizzie> Possibly the same thing that happens to all such things, like PESOIX and PSOX. (A quiet death, that is.)
12:22:52 <S1> Doesn't someone still have the files?
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13:15:45 <boily> good esoteric morning!
13:17:16 <boily> ça va bien. on voit que l'hiver arrive à grand pas. pas trop froid de ton bord?
13:22:17 <boily> si je ne m'abuse, tu es Suisse?
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13:24:44 <mroman_> je suppose que il'ya du neige en canada?
13:25:29 <boily> il neige déjà à Québec, mais pas encore à Montréal.
13:26:57 <mroman_> il'ya du neige sur les montagnes
13:27:10 <boily> je suis pas surpris :p
13:28:09 <boily> je suis nul en ski, et encore pire en planche à neige.
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13:52:46 <JesseH> Cambridge sounds fun...
13:55:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover, perhaps.
13:56:18 <fizzie> Or maybe he just mentioned the place as a hypothetical, I didn't really keep track.
13:57:38 <fizzie> Some grepping seems to suggest he went to some other place. Oh well.
13:59:41 <boily> Cambridge is a confusing name. I never know which side of the Great Puddle it is.
14:00:13 <fizzie> Both, just like every other place. :p
14:03:04 <boily> London and Paris are easy, they're both in Ontario!
14:04:15 <fizzie> At least there seems to be no university in Cambridge, MA, unlike the case with, say, the University of Birmingham and Birmingham City University in UK, and the Birmingham High School in California, and two different universities in Birmingham, Alabama.
14:06:45 <fizzie> I don't think Finland has many places named after other places, though there's probably a couple. There's an "Egyptinkorpi" ("desert/forest/backwoods of Egypt") in the middle of nowhere in Lieksa, at least.
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14:28:13 <fizzie> Also "Tukholmankatu", in case streets count.
14:30:56 <boily> where is Tukholmankatu?
14:31:34 <fizzie> In Helsinki. ("Tukholma" is the Finnish name of Stockholm.)
14:34:26 <fizzie> Apparently there's a large number of "Amerikka"s all around Finland too.
14:36:07 <fizzie> And a Jerusalemi, Finland somewhere in the general neighborhood of Joensuu.
14:36:29 <fizzie> (So I guess we have these things too.)
14:37:07 <boily> next thing you're going to tell me there's a Finland in Finland.
14:41:21 <fizzie> There's Ditch of Finland, Espoo, Finland. ("Suomenoja".)
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14:57:51 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: did you Cambridge?
15:05:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i decided not to go to cambridge after i found out timwi did maths at the same college i applied to and, well...
15:05:47 <HackEgo> 575) <Phantom_Hoover> oh god oh god <Phantom_Hoover> what if I become <Phantom_Hoover> attracted <Phantom_Hoover> to birds
15:06:41 * boily is suddenly perplexified
15:08:09 <boily> http://www.timwi.com/ ?
15:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.lionking.org/~timwi/eagles.htm would be more appropriate, probably
15:09:55 <fizzie> I'd be dubious of a consulting company known to be attracted to birds.
15:10:11 * boily replaces his perplexification with terror
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15:27:19 <mrhmouse> Definitely read that as "An Othello soundtrack"
15:27:47 <doesthiswork> is that the name of your new esoteric language?
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15:31:02 <boily> meanwhile, another brainfuck derivative. yéééé.......
15:31:57 <JesseH> Brainfuck isnt really interesting to me
15:32:20 <JesseH> I want to be able to do more with a language if i want
15:33:13 <boily> create a self-modifying Aubergine program?
15:35:12 <JesseH> It's hard to define more
15:35:40 <JesseH> write bindings for gtk, write networked application etc
15:37:01 <boily> is there an esolang out there that has a networking library?
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15:37:11 <boily> (no, Ursala doesn't count.)
15:37:19 <mrhmouse> I think any esolang that can call C libraries counts?
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16:15:04 <john_metcalf> Boiler repaired after four hours. Might be expensive :-(
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17:06:46 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know any esolangs that could do networking?
17:06:54 <fungot> fizzie: http://community.schemewiki.org/ cgi-bin/ viewcvs/ mit-scheme/ snapshot.pkg/ 20060906/
17:07:41 <fizzie> fungot: Your link is broken. Anyway! I'm sure you've heard of at least one language in which it'd be possible to write an IRC client, wink wink.
17:07:41 <fungot> fizzie: do you happen to get something fnord, but it's not
17:07:51 <fizzie> Not getting the hint, I see.
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17:20:07 <olsner> fungot: I got some moldy mushrooms, can I eat them?
17:20:07 <fungot> olsner: that's a lot of lisp companies barely cover the cost of speed, that's why i mentioned ' pretty complete.'
17:20:45 <fizzie> fungot: No, no, mushrooms, not speed.
17:20:45 <fungot> fizzie: ah i had a discrete math lecturer who would lecture painfully and fnord,
17:21:08 <fizzie> I think that's common among discrete math lecturers.
17:21:37 <mrhmouse> My discrete math lecturer would always swing this yardstick about while teaching
17:21:57 <mrhmouse> One day he broke it in two by mistake and, instead of fixing it, hid the pieces in the ceiling
17:22:16 <mrhmouse> Turns out it actually belonged to the professor who lectured in the class before his
17:25:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember nothing about my discrete maths lecturer except that he was a total dickhead about the lecture notes
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17:29:03 <mrhmouse> Phantom_Hoover: You should have taken mine. I once got credit on a bonus question that involved finding a number of items in a dark room (I don't remember the specifics) for the answer "It is pitch black. I am likely to be eaten by a grue"
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17:40:37 <boily> back from lunch, and I don't have a package yet. probably very soon.
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17:41:08 <boily> shady and delicious dealings.
17:41:20 <boily> fungot: are your mushrooms tasty?
17:41:20 <fungot> boily: the results of compilation up with the default background so it'll be the killer app for scheme
17:42:17 <fizzie> fungot: A killer app for Scheme? Are you talking about a Starcraft clone?
17:42:18 <fungot> fizzie: improvisational language? you're not fnord with a monad.
17:42:23 <quintopia> boily: those were olsner's mushrooms, and they are moldy
17:42:30 <fizzie> `learn fizzie is not fnord with a monad.
17:43:29 <boily> olsner: mushrooms can get moldy? I didn't know that.
17:43:36 <olsner> is the mold super-death-mold because it can grow on other funguses?
17:43:59 <boily> fizzie: what shall I do for the PDF? should I remove the Minecraft invention snippet, or keep it and append the not fnord?
17:44:05 <olsner> or is it just the mushrooms that kept growing for a bit? or is it just plain mold...
17:44:25 <fizzie> boily: I think you should follow the high-level policy you surely must have formulated before now.
17:45:07 <olsner> unless boily is mechanism, not policy
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17:45:31 <boily> fizzie: rule Nº 1: do whatever it is that feels right, and or keeps eldritch abominations at bay.
17:45:44 <boily> olsner: I am not mechanism, I am at Canada.
17:48:15 <fizzie> "You may still request that your article be published with unrestricted public access, as [REDACTED] is a hybrid publication allowing either traditional publication or Open Access publication. The author publication charge for making your paper Open Access is a discounted US$1750.00, --" I'm not going to start paying that kind of money!
17:48:39 <fizzie> (As far as I know, we don't have a university-wide open access policy guideline thing that'd say they'd pay it.)
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17:49:14 <olsner> publish somewhere else, obviously, you can't avoid being evil if you play with those guys
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18:01:00 <quintopia> publish on arxiv. i hear you can win millennium prizes that way.
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18:18:30 <Bike> the journal might not allow preprints.
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18:22:47 <boily> fungot: are your words preprinted?
18:22:47 <fungot> boily: if i were to try to get ppl to think and think and think and think and think and think.
18:23:32 <fungot> quintopia: int fnord c)
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18:29:28 <olsner> fungot is the great thinker
18:29:28 <fungot> olsner: no idea what half of this it keeps a log cabin
18:29:49 <fungot> FireFly: i signed lotsa those
18:29:55 <boily> fungot: log cabins are good.
18:29:55 <fungot> boily: let's assume local variables are kept in the interpreter, already written many times i set it
18:30:20 <fungot> FireFly: do you prefer books or tv? huh....intriguing have you ever been to. personally i'm not a common lisper? just kidding.
18:30:54 <boily> fungot: books are better, im[REDACTED]o.
18:30:55 <fungot> boily: but the word has had the fnord setup? :) " migrate my process thence!" :)
18:31:21 <boily> fungot: a great plot twist, the “fnord setup”. I never see it coming.
18:31:21 <fungot> boily: ( ( lambda ( x y) ( define ( min. xs)) ( lambda
18:31:29 <FireFly> fungot is asking the important questions here
18:31:29 <fungot> FireFly: found a metallic coat-hanger actually. category pattern* restaurant/pattern template i like to think that performance is a great example
18:31:37 <fizzie> The [REDACTED] journal does allow preprints, for the record.
18:32:11 <boily> the restaurant pattern?
18:32:42 <Bike> hey, british people, can someone tell me what the fuck a 'reader' is
18:33:53 <Bike> kmc: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23LERNorigin&src=hash&f=realtime neat talk on abiogenesis going on (random sorry)
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18:35:42 <olsner> Bike: reader is a pretty common word, what's the context?
18:35:49 <Bike> like in a university
18:36:38 <Bike> like 'i am a reader at x university'
18:37:11 <fizzie> "4. reviewer, referee, reader -- (someone who reads manuscripts and judges their suitability for publication)"?
18:37:30 <Bike> hm... it always seems like a permanent position though
18:37:36 <fizzie> "7. lector, lecturer, reader -- (a public lecturer at certain universities)"?
18:38:01 <fizzie> (The latter sounds more likely.)
18:38:16 <Bike> like this lane guy is "Reader in Evolutionary Biochemistry, Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment, University College London"
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18:38:37 <fizzie> "4. (chiefly UK) A university lecturer below a professor." (Wiktionary.)
18:38:57 <boily> en:reader, fr:sous-fifre.
18:39:33 <fizzie> "The title of reader in the United Kingdom and some universities in the Commonwealth nations, for example Australia and New Zealand, denotes an appointment for a senior academic with a distinguished international reputation in research or scholarship. It is an academic rank above senior lecturer (or principal lecturer in the new universities), recognising a distinguished record of original ...
18:39:39 <fizzie> ... research at professorial level. In the British ranking, for some universities a reader could be seen as a professor without a chair, similar to the distinction between professor extraordinarius and professor ordinarius at some European universities, professor and chaired professor in Hong Kong and professor B and chaired professor in Ireland. Both readers and professors in the UK would ...
18:39:45 <fizzie> ... correspond to professors in the US."
18:39:49 <boily> (note that «sous-fifre» is usually pejorative)
18:39:49 <fizzie> I wonder if this is slightly the same as the Finnish use of the title of docent.
18:39:53 <Bike> how confusing.
18:40:07 <fizzie> Oh, "An incompatibility of ranking systems between different (English-speaking) countries makes the position of reader difficult to place outside the context of the United Kingdom. A similar title used in some countries, for instance in Sweden, is docent, which is officially translated in English as reader." Guess so.
18:40:40 <fizzie> My immediate supervisor got certified as a docent the other day.
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18:43:25 <Bike> being an academic is suffering.
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18:46:25 <fizzie> I thought it was insufferable, instead.
18:46:33 <boily> Bike is meduka meguca.
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19:34:43 <oerjan> <boily> London and Paris are easy, they're both in Ontario! <-- rubbish, everyone knows paris is in texas
19:37:46 <boily> oerjan: Yukon's Paris is better than Texas's paris, I say.
19:37:55 <boily> (also, helloerjan.)
19:38:31 <mrhmouse> belloily: what's this namello business you're tello?
19:38:49 <boily> mrhmouse: I'm perpetuating a fine chännel tradition.
19:39:39 <boily> (hm. there's also a Paris, and a London, in Kiribati.)
19:40:02 <oerjan> shockingly, wikipedia lists no other nonfictional trondheims.
19:42:17 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Platelet_Disorder ← we have a blood disease!
19:44:58 <ion> “Let It Be” in Minor Key http://youtu.be/SeIyX4KXgpE
19:44:59 <boily> oh, the myndzi-bot is back!
19:45:36 <boily> speaking of weird arrangements, who suggested g-major videos to me?
19:46:14 <oerjan> hm myndzi hasn't been gone, although he _did_ make his script ignore HackEgo ...
19:46:32 <boily> (meanwhile, http://youtu.be/cKce8d_ffS4)
19:46:36 <oerjan> which has obviously broken again.
19:47:31 <oerjan> i don't think we have enough information on mrhmouse to add an entry yet.
19:49:26 <Bike> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/04/19/synthetic-xna-molecules-can-evolve-and-store-genetic-information-just-like-dna/ how are vhs/betamax analogies so common
19:49:37 <Bike> back in the 80s (it was the 80s right) were all ads about betamax and vhs or something
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19:51:19 * oerjan clicked on that link in a vain hope to discover X was for "xylitol".
19:51:42 <oerjan> i mean, it's a sugar replacement, right?
19:52:03 <Bike> you'll just have to survive with cyclohexane.
19:52:57 <Bike> oerjan: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20017539 good news!
19:53:04 <oerjan> hm xylose exists, so xylonucleic acid _should_ be reasonable
19:54:35 * boily takes notes for his next Paranoia campaign... “Give a player a bottle of xylylylytic acid”
19:55:11 <Bike> it's sugar, dude.
19:56:12 <boily> but they don't have the clearance to know that :D
19:56:26 <Bike> oh, right, heh.
19:56:39 <oerjan> google claims xylylylytic is not a word hth
19:56:58 <Bike> describe it as an "extremely virulent bioinformation precursor"
20:02:04 <oerjan> <fizzie> At least there seems to be no university in Cambridge, MA, [...] <-- you should ban yourself for trolling hth
20:03:03 <oerjan> alternately, proofread your lines.
20:03:54 <oerjan> also, stop being idle.
20:04:43 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:05:17 * boily tapes an electronic eggtimer onto fizzie
20:05:25 <shachaf> oerjan: how about i stop being idle instead
20:05:41 <oerjan> but you cannot ban fizzie.
20:11:47 * boily misses the days where he had voice. those were nice days.
20:11:50 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> no, http://www.lionking.org/~timwi/progs.htm <-- how has timwi avoided being sued by hasbro and/or mattel
20:12:33 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm not a moralist; i can't make "should" statements
20:13:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v boily.
20:16:52 <HackEgo> Thanks, anonymous. Thanonymous.
20:17:25 <ion> `run cat "$(which thanks)"
20:17:26 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
20:19:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's part of our anti-idling campaign hth
20:19:45 <ion> antiïdling
20:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> haha, guess whose video's on the front page of /r/math: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHvAqDuWG2M
20:21:35 <HackEgo> Thanks, palatalized. Thalatalized.
20:23:04 <HackEgo> Thanks, tjosentme. Thosentme.
20:24:03 <oerjan> HackEgo: who is this tjo you're speaking for
20:24:36 <boily> fungot: can you coerce HackEgo into speaking?
20:24:36 <fungot> boily: is is occasionally identity, and weak tables.
20:24:45 <boily> HackEgo: see, your tables are weak!
20:26:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: why doesn't he have a french accent
20:27:15 <oerjan> well then it's too slight for me to hear
20:28:19 <fungot> FireFly: none at all. :( i can't even be printed!! for dessert, i'll have to write
20:28:46 <FireFly> Hm, seems... philosophical
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20:32:06 <ion> phantom_hoover: Who is he?
20:34:33 <oerjan> i don't think he's done esolangs for a decade.
20:34:51 <oerjan> by which i mean he never responded to the programs i sent him, the bastard.
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20:40:01 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:40:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `run: not found
20:40:57 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
20:41:07 <HackEgo> You just know when a relationship is about to end. My girlfriend called me \ at work and asked me how you change a lightbulb in the bathroom. "It's very \ simple," I said. "You start by filling up the bathtub with water..."
20:41:33 <Bike> why are all the fortunes creepy
20:41:37 <metasepia> I'm a bisexual; I get it maybe twice a year.
20:42:17 <oerjan> they're secretly all misfortunes
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20:45:26 <boily> does ruddy fortunes?
20:45:43 <mrhmouse> ruddy's certainly excited about fortune
20:45:43 <ruddy> good point. Just not the same one
20:45:54 <boily> btw, who is polytone?
20:46:59 <Bike> polytone: i always toldja that the antiphony was gonna be outdated, but nooooo, you didn't even want to TRY those newfangled fortepianos
20:49:40 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:50:02 <HackEgo> bash: command substitution: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: command substitution: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:50:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: !!: not found
20:50:22 <HackEgo> bash: command substitution: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: command substitution: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:50:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: history: not found
20:50:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ́: not found
20:53:03 <Slereah_> What's a good assembler for windows?
20:53:46 <oerjan> generally you want windows made in one piece, they're rather hard to assemble afterwards.
20:54:03 <boily> Slereah_: tasm, iirc.
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20:57:16 <Slereah_> When I launch it it closes immediatly
20:57:21 <Slereah_> I had the same thing with NASM
20:57:57 <Fiora> what commandline did you call it with?
20:59:19 <mrhmouse> oerjan: your sass has been noted and approved
21:00:20 <Slereah_> oerjan : I'm pretty sure if I had the assembly program of windows, I'd be a rich man
21:00:41 <mrhmouse> Slereah_: try running it in a console and checking for error messages. maybe it segfaulted? is that a thing in Windows-land?
21:01:18 <Slereah_> I haven't opened the windows command thing in a while
21:01:25 <FireFly> or it just printed help and exited or something
21:01:46 <Slereah_> Nowadays with the classes it's all ls
21:02:54 <mrhmouse> Windows commandline makes me feel like I'm instructing a grade school student to do calculus over the phone in a language they don't understand
21:03:04 * boily covers Slereah_ with a robe made of stitched 5¼" floppies, all with a glittering different DOS version
21:03:26 <mrhmouse> fungot, where can I get such a robe as Slereah_?
21:03:26 <fungot> mrhmouse: it's easy to parse
21:03:35 <Slereah_> To launch nasm.exe, it's just nasm, right?
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21:03:47 <mrhmouse> Slereah_: Depends. Is it in your %PATH%?
21:04:05 <Slereah_> Let's whip up some ASM I guess
21:05:30 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:06:21 <Slereah_> Now let's try a thing that will display a thing
21:08:02 <Bike> are you going to use a library or syscalls
21:08:07 <Bike> can you even use syscalls nowadays.
21:08:17 <Bike> (for printing. on windows.)
21:08:37 <Slereah_> I tried using thems interrupts
21:08:52 <Bike> is your guide from the dos era
21:09:00 <Slereah_> Not sure if I'm using the wrong syntax for the assembler or if I just fucked up
21:09:17 <Slereah_> http://w3.ufsm.br/rmbranco/cefet_files/Apostila/8086%20Assembly.pdf < dunno
21:09:18 <Bike> depends on the exact nature of 'didn't work'
21:09:34 <Bike> but it assembled?
21:09:48 <Bike> nasm should complain if you give it something syntactically invalid.
21:10:10 <Bike> indeed it does not.
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21:11:34 <Bike> read? that's gonna be a binary.
21:11:49 <Slereah_> I tried inputting "test", no work
21:11:57 <Bike> how do you normally run programs on windows?
21:11:58 <Slereah_> I tried adding a .exe file extension, it bitched
21:12:32 <Slereah_> If I have to command line things, I just input the exe name in the directory
21:12:38 <boily> Slereah_: usually, you only get object code. you need to link that afterwards to make a real executable.
21:12:39 <Slereah_> But here it doesn't seem to work
21:12:55 <Slereah_> I guess I'd better read the nasm docv
21:12:58 <Bike> oh, i forgot linking. dumb.
21:13:18 <Bike> that's not part of nasm. have you got gcc or something? usually they can call the linker for you
21:13:59 <mrhmouse> I _think_ you can link "test.o" by just calling "gcc test.o".
21:14:12 <Bike> well, mingw oughta be able to do it too.
21:14:21 <mrhmouse> Yeah, it would be pretty much the same
21:14:32 <Slereah_> Now that I got classes on it prolly easier to deal with
21:15:38 <mrhmouse> ruddy can link as well. ruddy is the best at linking.
21:15:39 <ruddy> good point. Just not the same one
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21:16:27 <Slereah_> Apparently the NASM syntax is a bit more complicated than I thought
21:17:08 <impomatic> The NASM manual isn't very clear on how to use macros :-(
21:17:25 <Slereah_> Also what format should I pick
21:17:33 <Slereah_> They use ELF in the example, but I'm not sure
21:17:38 <Bike> On windows use PE.
21:17:46 <FireFly> How *do* you figure out what kind of file a file is without relying on file extensions, in windows?
21:17:56 <FireFly> I'm too used to just `file`ing stuff I don't know what it is
21:18:13 <mrhmouse> FireFly: I don't think you can..
21:18:22 <Slereah_> Well at least not from the GUI
21:18:38 <Slereah_> Usually what I do is to just open it with a variety of programs
21:18:46 <Slereah_> Usually notepad is a pretty good int for the content
21:18:58 <Bike> Slereah_: ELF (Executable and Linking Format) is the format on unixy machines. macs use either that or mach-o, i forget. windows uses PE (Portable Executable).
21:19:06 <Bike> file? format? fuck it
21:22:41 <Slereah_> I just wanted to write some assembly man :(
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21:23:03 <mrhmouse> Bike: it's Format, you were right the first time
21:23:10 <Slereah_> I'm not doing assembly to deal with shells and linking!
21:23:17 <fizzie> Assembly man, assembly man, does whatever assembly can.
21:23:35 <mrhmouse> fizzie: so, everything, but in no reasonable time at all?
21:24:01 <Bike> Slereah_: on the contrary, understanding linking is an important advantage of understanding assembly-level mechanisms.
21:24:04 <mrhmouse> Slereah_: any reason you chose x86 first? IIRC MIPS assembly is supposedly easier to jump into. disclaimer: I haven't actually used it
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21:24:20 <int-e> Slereah_: some assembly required. it's even spelled out in the name!
21:24:22 <Bike> probably because Slereah_'s computer is x86
21:24:27 <Bike> which is a pretty good reason.
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21:24:41 <Slereah> I'll just shoot electrons at my CPU
21:24:53 <Bike> Did you miss something? Check the logs?
21:25:04 <Slereah> [22:23:13] <mrhmouse> fizzie: so, everything, but in no reasonable time at all?
21:25:04 <Slereah> [22:23:38] <Slereah_> I'll just shoot electrons at my CPU
21:25:10 <Bike> yeah, you missed some things.
21:25:14 <Bike> anyway mars is pretty good for mips http://courses.missouristate.edu/kenvollmar/mars/
21:25:24 <boily> does windows have a uname?
21:25:44 <fizzie> Bike: I'm a SPIM man, myself.
21:25:47 <Bike> there's a system information dialogue in the control panel, or there was last i used one, anyway
21:26:12 <fizzie> (Though they've wimped it out completely with a QtSpim.)
21:26:25 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
21:26:27 <Slereah> I chose x86 'cause it's my CPU
21:26:33 <Slereah> I guess I could use a virtual machine
21:26:38 <fungot> shachaf: i have ripped rotty's library out of scheme42, in case somebody is interested, i'll look for you.
21:26:47 <fizzie> "win-r dxdiag" is very slightly like uname, it's what I do.
21:26:57 <mrhmouse> fungot, please don't look for me. that's frightening.
21:26:57 <fungot> mrhmouse: haskell would be ( fnord !p) ( p q)). i woke up
21:26:58 <boily> aurgh. that stupid dhcp/dns thing scrozzled my perfectly fine hostname.
21:27:27 <Slereah> Man why do I even need a linking for a single file
21:27:38 <boily> my machine is «njorun», not «aboily-pc»!
21:27:47 <Bike> Slereah_: because most nontrivial files use library routines.
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21:28:13 <fizzie> Bike: There's a "System Information" block on the first tab, and it's always in path.
21:28:30 <Slereah> I want to use machine code, not libraries ;w;
21:28:47 <Bike> you'll think differently when you want to use printf.
21:29:23 <shachaf> fungot: imo look for Bike instead
21:29:24 <fungot> shachaf: swear filtering gone wrong or a deliberate, evil plot.
21:29:29 <Slereah> If I wanted printf I'd use some C
21:29:43 <Bike> so what do you want to do in assembly?
21:29:57 <Bike> ok, well, there's a problem.
21:30:05 <Slereah> Plus it's the next thing on our curriculum
21:30:12 <Bike> think about it. you need some kind of function to do something as basic as outputting a number as text.
21:30:13 <Slereah> So probably a good idea to check it out
21:30:14 <int-e> > printf "%d %.3f" 1 1.0
21:30:16 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Text.Printf.PrintfType t)
21:30:19 <int-e> > printf "%d %.3f" 1 1.0 :: String
21:30:21 <mrhmouse> Slereah: what architecture is in your curriculum?
21:30:40 <Slereah> I assume x86 since we have regular PCs
21:30:49 <FireFly> fungot: the latter, I believe
21:30:49 <fungot> FireFly: whoa i changed it to
21:30:57 <Bike> not a good assumption. lots of assembly classes use VM tools.
21:31:03 <mrhmouse> when I covered assembly, we used MIPS
21:31:08 <Bike> MIPS at my school too.
21:31:20 <FireFly> We used a kinda weird kinda MIPSy thing
21:31:20 <Slereah> Plus I saw that you can access the PC speaker pretty easily in assembly, which is neat
21:31:25 <Bike> Also nowadays there's a slim chance the students have ARM-based netbooks, ha ha.
21:31:26 <Slereah> I might try fucking around with that
21:31:44 <fizzie> MIPS is terribly common for assembly courses.
21:32:08 <boily> MIPS is universal for assembly courses. we did it too.
21:32:19 <int-e> mips seems popular (it's a fairly pure RISC architecture)
21:32:25 <Slereah> I think assembly starts next week
21:32:30 <Slereah> The unix class ends tomorrow
21:32:33 <FireFly> we used Nios II, which looks very similar to MIPS from what I've seen about MIPS, but for some reason the Wikipedia article for Nios II doesn't even mention MIPS
21:32:36 <fizzie> MIPS is short for "Mips Is Popular in Schools".
21:33:06 <boily> `learn MIPS Is Popular In Schools.
21:34:05 <mrhmouse> Slereah: low-level sound in #esoteric? have you seen stackbeat? :)
21:34:10 <shachaf> MIPIS Is Popular in Schools
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21:38:46 <oerjan> `learn MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
21:40:15 <Slereah> I wonder, can you write a binary by hand?
21:40:30 <Slereah> Write the program, figure out the opcodes, translate it to ASCII
21:40:50 <mrhmouse> Slereah: check it out. maybe you'll get some inspiration for a project in assembly http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackBeat
21:40:52 <Slereah> Well, put it in a txt file
21:41:06 <Bike> i think you are confused about what assembly is.
21:41:07 <mrhmouse> Slereah: I _guess_ you could write the opcodes by hand with a hex editor?
21:41:25 <Bike> anyway, you're not on DOS, you need pexe format.
21:41:28 <Slereah> I am aware that assembly is to avoid writing opcodes, yes
21:41:41 <Slereah> I am just wondering about that other thing
21:41:49 <fizzie> You could write opcodes -- and executable file headers -- by hand with a good enough text editor, too. (Control characters might be too much for Notepad.)
21:41:50 <Taneb> I wonder how different the Avengers movie would be if Norton had reprised his role as the Hulk
21:42:57 <FireFly> Bike: well you *could* restrict your machine code to the printable-ASCII range...
21:43:04 <FireFly> That would make for some fun programs
21:43:23 <Bike> yeah, they do that for exploits sometimes
21:43:31 <FireFly> I was about to suggest that
21:44:09 <Slereah> Well 126 is guaranteed printable
21:44:10 <FireFly> ASCII doesn't even have 200 characters :D
21:44:17 <mrhmouse> Isn't ASCII 10 the newline? That's printable
21:44:27 <Slereah> A lot of them are after 126 for the most part
21:44:35 <FireFly> mrhmouse: it isn't printable in the sense of what's defined as 'printable ASCII'
21:44:46 <FireFly> Oh, sorry, "ASCII printable characters"
21:44:49 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII#ASCII_printable_characters
21:44:56 <FireFly> Slereah: but those aren't in ASCII.
21:45:04 <mrhmouse> FireFly: Ah, I was just assuming "insertable without control codes" :P
21:45:09 <FireFly> They are in some extension of ASCII, like ISO-8859-1 or whatever
21:45:21 <Slereah> FireFly : Well they are in some versions of ASCII
21:45:44 <mrhmouse> though I suppose "new line" is a control code..
21:45:53 <Slereah> They're characters undefined by the ASCII norms
21:46:05 <Slereah> But for the most part they are used if needed
21:47:04 <Slereah> Wait, is ASCII 7 or 8 bits?
21:47:19 <Bike> there are a lot of them.
21:47:24 <Bike> such as iso whatever.
21:47:33 <fizzie> ISO-8859-1 aka Latin-1 is p. popular.
21:47:43 <fizzie> Well, maybe "was" is a better word.
21:48:34 <mrhmouse> yeah, I think utf-8/utf-16 are more popular these days. maybe 32?
21:48:44 <FireFly> Unicode is the only worthy charset nowadays
21:48:57 <FireFly> s/charset/set of charsets/
21:49:01 * int-e has fond memories of codepage 437
21:49:15 <Slereah> There's no font that has all of it
21:49:16 <FireFly> I guess techincally Unicode could be considered a charset, but not an encoding?
21:49:22 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if there was still quite a lot of Windows-1252 stuff around.
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21:49:35 <Bike> technically? unicode has multiple encodings
21:49:46 <Slereah> I want a font that has all the unicode characters
21:49:57 <Bike> Slereah: "yes i often find myself stymied when i want to use SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW, burmese, and × in the same text"
21:50:31 <FireFly> Slereah: what does it matter, if your font renderer just falls back to a font that has the character if your preferred font doesn't?
21:50:33 <Bike> `unidecode 𓃡𓃢𓃣𓃤𓃥𓃦𓃧𓃨𓃩𓃪𓃫
21:50:35 <HackEgo> [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE1 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE2 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE3 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE4 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE5 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE6 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE7 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE8 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCE9 DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCEA DUNNO] [U+D80C DUNNO] [U+DCEB DUNNO]
21:50:48 <Slereah> FireFly : Some characters are displayed by almost no font
21:51:00 <FireFly> Maybe they're very new to the standard?
21:51:01 <mrhmouse> fizzie: actually I recently came across something in Windows-1251 at work.. but I can't find it now :(
21:51:03 <fizzie> Bike: UCS-2 build of Python strikes again.
21:51:10 <Slereah> Bike : http://codepoints.net/egyptian_hieroglyphs
21:51:15 <impomatic> Why hasn't unicode got a balloon or a candle?
21:51:29 <Slereah> impomatic : They did the emoji recently, I think?
21:51:31 <Bike> i would have picked coptic, myself.
21:51:34 <Slereah> So there's probably some in it
21:51:51 <Bike> they've been doing emoji because of pressure to add emoji.
21:51:52 <int-e> don't forget the essential ♖♘♗♕♔♗♘♖ ♙♙♙♙♙♙♙♙ ♟♟♟♟♟♟♟♟ ♜♞♝♛♚♝♞♜ characters
21:52:01 <Bike> lol, yeah sure.
21:52:04 <FireFly> Slereah: why don't you make a font with all the codepoints no-one else has bothered to implement, so we all could install that?
21:52:22 <FireFly> int-e: also, don't forget the domino pieces. or the Mahjongg pieces.
21:52:29 <Slereah> FireFly : Well I just need some time to design 65 million characters
21:52:30 <FireFly> Very essential characters, those
21:52:42 <int-e> (but for shogi there's only ☖☗⛉⛊)
21:52:43 <FireFly> Slereah: maybe that's why no-one else has bothered
21:52:48 <fizzie> There aren't 65 million characters in Unicode.
21:53:24 <int-e> And no dedicated go stones, go players must do with circles, I believe.
21:53:26 <Slereah> I wonder how much they're up to
21:54:18 <Slereah> "Unicode defines a codespace of 1,114,112 code points in the range 0hex to 10FFFFhex"
21:54:40 <fizzie> Yes, but they've allocated only about a hundred thousand and a bit.
21:54:53 <Bike> how many times has this channel talked about unicode. man
21:54:54 <Slereah> There's a lot in the "to do" area though
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21:55:17 <Slereah> They're planning on doing fucking Aztec script
21:55:23 <int-e> ah, more ... ⛀⛁⛂⛃ ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄⚅
21:55:53 <Slereah> http://www.unicode.org/roadmaps/smp/
21:56:20 <Slereah> In case you want to send an email to King Hammurabi
21:56:30 <int-e> ☔ <- unicode protection, it's raining characters.
21:57:17 <Bike> personally i'm looking forward to tangut support.
21:57:20 <fizzie> I like U+1F5FE SILHOUETTE OF JAPAN, at least it's not unclear where all those characters are coming from.
21:58:08 <int-e> oh, that's right next to lots of stupid? cute? whatever smileys.
21:58:16 <Slereah> Bike : It will only take 17 blocks
21:58:18 <fizzie> It's also right next to STATUE OF LIBERTY, TOKYO TOWER and MOUNT FUJI.
21:58:40 <fizzie> Wonder what they need the STATUE OF LIBERTY for.
21:58:53 <Bike> because they tragically lack sa's crying eagle emote.
21:58:54 <int-e> (my font (whatever gucharmap is using) doesn't have those :/)
21:59:08 <Bike> Wait, they're adding blissymbols? Huh.
21:59:22 <Bike> and phaisos disk, nice
21:59:41 <Bike> oh shit, deseret
22:00:03 <Bike> they used to have to use private use for that.
22:00:15 <Slereah> By that point they're just adding whatever ancient script there is
22:00:20 <Slereah> Soon there will be cave drawings
22:00:37 <fizzie> U+3425C LEFT-FACING MAMMOTH WITH TWO SPEARS
22:00:42 <Bike> well it is supposed to include all text.
22:00:57 <Bike> i had no idea the hittites had hieroglyphs
22:01:05 <Bike> except they're not hittite
22:01:10 <Slereah> I can't wait until aliens come and they have to include all alien scripts
22:01:17 <FireFly> fizzie: is that an actual codepoint?
22:01:34 <int-e> I'm more irritated by things like U+1D794 MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC CAPITAL EPSILON
22:01:40 <Slereah> U+F4A86A GLIXNAR VENUSIAN GLYPH
22:02:16 <FireFly> Hm, is it bad that I had to ask?
22:02:32 <Slereah> With unicode, you never know
22:02:41 <Slereah> There's a penis character in unicode
22:02:52 <FireFly> I mean, there's (at least) five different characters of the moon with a face, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were one for left-facing mammoths with spears
22:02:58 <Slereah> One of the egyptian hieroglyph determinative is a penis
22:03:00 <fizzie> FireFly: I don't think there's anything in astral plane 3 yet.
22:03:08 <Bike> it turns out that the aliens have extelligence only in the form of long-term self-sustaining chemical reactions. unicode consortium throne into a penis.
22:03:23 <Bike> possibly a penis, i really fucked up that sentence
22:03:46 <fizzie> Just the prime materi... I mean, basic multilingual plane, and astral planes 1, 2, E and F.
22:03:51 <int-e> funny. google for "�" says it matches no pages. duckduckgo displays a picture of an elephant. duckduckgo won that round :)
22:04:00 <Slereah> They're gonna be so embarrassed when it turns out the aliens have 4D letters
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22:04:11 <fizzie> Man, they so should call BMP the "prime material plane" in Unicode terminology.
22:05:01 <fizzie> (And refer to its characters disparagingly as "primes".)
22:05:15 <Slereah> What about the outer planes
22:05:23 <Slereah> Which part of unicode is lawful neutral
22:05:46 <int-e> Slereah: there are lots of unassigned codepoints.
22:06:00 <Slereah> Well yes, that's why they're adding more!
22:06:01 <fizzie> They've got 16 outer planes, they could easily map the D&D standard ring to those.
22:06:11 <int-e> not sure whether that's lawful, but it doesn't get any more neutral :)
22:06:33 <Slereah> I would think that control characters are lawful neutral
22:06:56 <Slereah> I guess unicode doesn't have elvish or klingon
22:07:08 <Slereah> They're probably copyrighted anyway
22:07:12 <fizzie> No, though both have been proposed.
22:07:21 <Slereah> Also : no Batman or Prince symbol
22:08:10 <fizzie> Hm, the proposed Tengwar region is still in the roadmap.
22:08:18 <fizzie> I remember that the Klingon proposal was entirely shot down, at least.
22:08:54 <Slereah> The unicode people probably responded NEEEEEERDS
22:10:47 <fizzie> http://www.unicode.org/roadmaps/smp/ -- Cirth and Tengwar (the Tolkienesque things) are there on line 160, in the font that's for "scripts for which proposals have been formally submitted to the UTC or to WG2".
22:11:20 <fizzie> "As a result, blogs in pIqaD have begun to appear, --" it's the Klingon blogosphere.
22:11:20 <Slereah> 3. Requester typeExpert request
22:11:33 <Slereah> 2. Information on the user community?Tengwar enjoys both scholarly and popular use.
22:12:19 <fizzie> Well, there's magazines published in it and all.
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22:15:15 <mrhmouse> I have a Tengwar font that just replaces [a-zA-Z0-9]
22:15:51 <Bike> requesting klingon translation of 'blogosphere'
22:16:16 <Slereah> They have no word for blogosphere, but a hundred for flamewars
22:16:19 <fizzie> There's a "shadow registry" of mappings of different conlangs to the Unicode Private Use Area -- http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/
22:17:22 <Bike> unicode has blissymbols proposed, but not solresol?
22:19:41 <Bike> jesus fucking christ am i talking about blissymbols just to avoid homework
22:19:57 <fizzie> You should type your homework in blissymbols.
22:20:35 <Bike> i am unsure how to translate 'monocot'
22:21:30 <fizzie> Bike: I think you combine the symbol for plant and the number 1.
22:23:05 <Bike> for plants? what would be like, a gymnosperm, then
22:23:40 <fizzie> It probably involves some kind of caret pointing at something.
22:24:12 <Bike> i wonder if any 'logical language' people have ever looked at what a clusterfuck systematics is. maybe that would convince them they're barking up a nonexistent tree
22:25:04 <Slereah> Everytime I see "lojban", I always interpret it as "logical banter"
22:25:07 <Bike> i also wonder if any logical language person has seriously considered describing humans in terms of their jaws, as systematists do.
22:25:14 <Bike> Slereah: that's kind of the idea, no?
22:25:25 <Slereah> yeah, but it's probably not the etymology
22:25:33 <Slereah> Loj is probably from logic
22:25:46 <Bike> i think it is, actually. it's not like they only used english roots.
22:26:00 <Slereah> " "Lojban" is a compound formed from loj and ban, which are short forms of logji (logic) and bangu (language), respectively. "
22:26:17 <Slereah> Hm, doesn't specify where they got bangu from
22:26:20 <Bike> man, have you ever thought to yourself, yes, having jaws is awesome
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22:26:32 <shachaf> Bike: have you considered the many alternatives
22:26:47 <mrhmouse> Bike: I just have the one jaw, where did you get your second one?
22:26:49 <Slereah> I wouldn't mind having an anteater face
22:26:58 <Bike> shachaf: what, like mandibles? fuck 'em
22:27:16 <Bike> advantages of jaws include: adaptive immune system
22:27:33 <shachaf> aren't mandibles a kind of jaws
22:28:11 <Bike> i mean bony jaws.
22:28:22 <Bike> of the gnathostomata, of which you are and bikes are
22:29:21 <Bike> a gnathostome.
22:34:01 <mrhmouse> `learn shachaf is a gnathostome
22:36:00 <shachaf> uh do you just overwrite old wisdom entries like that all the time
22:36:26 <mrhmouse> does `learn overwrite? I thought it was concatenative
22:36:55 <mrhmouse> either way, it's versioned, so it can be rolled back..
22:37:52 <Bike> it overwrites.
22:39:22 <mrhmouse> shachaf: should I revert that, then?
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22:51:22 <mrhmouse> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/6295652cdd8a
22:51:56 <shachaf> i don't think it's up to me
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23:26:42 <HackEgo> olist (932): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
23:39:55 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/oerjan: line 1: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:
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00:45:09 <Sgeo> Going to go cry in a corner about the betrayal of a language that I was starting to like
00:45:10 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/8496948
00:46:20 <Bike> shot through the heart AND YOU'RE TO BLAME
00:52:37 <Sgeo> Why is the movement lobe so laggy
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00:54:05 <Sgeo> Oh, ok, tht's easy to fix
00:55:18 <JesseH> I think im going to create a language, where you just hit the keyboard with your fist randomly
00:55:30 <JesseH> like, aim for a with your fist, and that will me like + for brainfuck
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02:24:45 <quintopia> JesseH: so the commands will be clusters of letters? and the interpreter tries to guess where one cluster ended and the next one started?
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06:05:28 <Bike> the moo- oh, sorry
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06:52:02 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:56:16 <shachaf> I don't think I've been `welcomed before.
06:56:32 <myname> so you just made it yourself
07:00:11 <HackEgo> shachaf: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
07:00:28 <quintopia> now someone else has welcomed them. happy?
07:00:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rercome: not found
07:00:38 <quintopia> shachaf: i've never been welcomed either
07:01:10 <HackEgo> quintopia: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:02:57 <shachaf> have i asked you about chu spaces yet
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07:03:30 <ion> What’s a choo choo space?
07:03:41 <quintopia> @ask oerjan why did you expand the definitions of sin and cos on SELECT.? and why not the others? (i prefer the unexpanded versions because it shortens the code i have to write if i can just call other ones as subroutines.)
07:04:10 <quintopia> shachaf: you've never asked me hth
07:04:22 <shachaf> ion: there's a channel for that
07:04:40 <Bike> #cslounge-topologicalgeneralizations
07:04:51 <shachaf> #cslounge-bikes does exist
07:05:45 <myname> isn't csharp basically an esolang?
07:06:00 <lexande> shachaf: yeah, i don't know about them, sorry
07:06:05 <ion> Should i lounge on #cslounge?
07:06:11 <lexande> is C++ still kmc's favourite esolang?
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07:07:41 <quintopia> is there a working complex SLI library?
07:07:56 <Bike> not that i'm aware of
07:08:12 <Bike> guess you have to work out the operations
07:08:16 <quintopia> do you know how to fast add and multiply in SLI
07:08:28 <lexande> ion: once saul kripke was walking in DC and he saw john nash, so he went up to him and say "hi, i'm saul kripke, it's an honour to meet you professor nash." and nash said "who are you!? who sent you!?"
07:08:30 <Bike> e^a * e^b is e^(a+b), so recursin'
07:09:09 <lexande> it is unknown how many times this iterated
07:09:21 <ion> lexande: Acknowledged.
07:09:31 <Bike> e^a + e^b is uh... some bullshit
07:09:32 <lexande> anyway, if you do decide to join #cslounge, be prepared to answer a question similar to nash's with a better response than kripke's
07:10:39 <shachaf> Sgeo_ is in #cslounge somehow
07:11:17 <Sgeo_> I've been there a while
07:11:36 <myname> sometimes i wonder what knowledge you people here have
07:11:44 <Bike> oh, wikipedia has a library. https://code.google.com/p/sli-c-library/
07:11:55 <Bike> myname: i can name, like, three different pokemons.
07:12:10 <Bike> «SLI (symmetric level-index) arithmetic essentially prevents overflow & underflow in computing. With this library, you may use 'SLI' as a normal data type in C++. Replace 'double' with 'SLI' in you program, and over/underflow problem would be solved.» lol
07:12:15 <quintopia> Bike: yeah that's not implemented complex numbers :P
07:12:15 <myname> i have a seminar this semester about game theory and slowly understand nash equilibrium
07:12:23 <myname> Bike: that is pretty lame
07:13:02 <Bike> surely c++ templating makes it a snap to replace the underlying numeric type!
07:14:10 <quintopia> hmm, but x*y=ln((e^x)^y), but ln is just -1, and e^ is just +1, so that's just (x+1)(whatever ^ is)y-1
07:14:18 <quintopia> i think this one is easier to figure out
07:14:45 <quintopia> but ^ is not a simple thing in SLI
07:16:00 <myname> i don't get the nash joke :(
07:17:23 <Bike> exp(a) * exp(b) = exp(a + b) is 1 + a + b, right
07:19:16 <shachaf> lexande: i heard that story before
07:19:27 <Bike> using multiple forms of arithmetic in the same go like that is confusing.
07:21:20 <shachaf> Bike: ˖ ᐩ ⁺ ₊ ∔ ⊕ ⊞ ➕⧺ ⧻ ⨁ ⨹ hth
07:22:08 <shachaf> that's what they use in elementary schools in .il
07:22:19 <shachaf> because + is too christian??
07:22:34 <myname> i would go with the first five
07:22:59 <shachaf> some schools, anyway. i had it in some books
07:23:12 <ion> shachaf: You forgot ☩ 卍 卐 hth
07:23:58 <Bike> maybe we can just decide adding things is overrated.
07:24:37 <shachaf> Bike: btw did you see my 2064 INVISIBLE PLUS []
07:24:47 <Bike> since it was invisible
07:25:02 <ion> The jokes within the Unicode standard are hilarious.
07:25:13 <shachaf> May you live in INVISIBLE PLUS.
07:26:21 <quintopia> Bike: yes it would be 1+(a卐b). and a = exp(a)-1, and b=exp(b)-1, but the 卐 is not simple.
07:26:51 <Bike> a^b = e^(a * log(b)) = 1 +' (a *' (b -' 1))
07:26:58 <Bike> i'm really too tired to think ugh
07:27:06 <Bike> er, b * log a.
07:27:12 <ion> I’ll think ugh for you.
07:27:19 <Bike> why does anyone pay attention to me. why do i exist? what is life.
07:27:30 <fungot> shachaf: i'll need to buy bread i assume it was a fools fnord.
07:27:50 <Bike> quintopia: i'm using ' to mean "in normal arithmetic", and without it to mean "in SLI"
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07:28:03 <ion> - is not a normal minus, − is a normal minus.
07:28:10 <Bike> yeah, you're right.
07:28:16 <shachaf> fungot: - is a HYPHEN—MINUS
07:28:16 <fungot> shachaf: doesn't mean anything to me either. rather read the algorithm, as well
07:29:06 <quintopia> i like to subtract using em-dashes
07:29:17 <Bike> so a^b = 1 +' (1 +' (b + (a -' 1))) or so
07:29:37 <shachaf> that was a pedant trap. let's see who else falls in.
07:29:42 <Bike> + is bullshit that i hate though. fuck it. die. mother
07:30:23 <shachaf> what are you even trying to figure out
07:30:29 <Bike> who fucking knows
07:30:41 <quintopia> Bike: i think it may be easier to define + and * in terms of ^ and have ^ be the one complicated algorithm
07:30:53 <Bike> has anyone ever even been so far decided as to more like
07:30:54 <shachaf> service level initiative??
07:31:33 <quintopia> has anyone really been so far even as do go be look more like?
07:31:38 <Bike> four hundred nineteen armless and legless corpses float conspicuously through the remains of the hangar
07:33:29 <quintopia> lifthrasiir: definininininining ^ CxC->C where C uses the SLI representation
07:33:30 <Bike> sli is where each number has two parts, a regular small significand, and a whateverthefuckinand such that the value of the number is the power tower of e's whateverthefuckinand tall with the significand at the top
07:35:09 <quintopia> of course it really only makes sense in the complex field if we only allow anyone ever to use the principal branch
07:35:23 <Bike> the other branches can fuck themselves
07:35:39 <quintopia> well, brances do have crotches between them
07:36:00 <Bike> the -1 branch of lambert is such an asshole at parties
07:36:10 <Bike> no i'm not dressed as andrew jackson you dumb motherfucker
07:36:47 <quintopia> are the branches of the product-log polyamorous
07:37:12 <quintopia> they do seem to like to get together at one point
07:42:34 <Bike> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2FBFb0024702
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07:44:32 <Bike> only thirty bucks
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07:53:44 <quintopia> well there's a hint in the abstract
07:55:49 <quintopia> it also talks about "the original recursive algorithms for arithmetic"
07:55:57 <quintopia> meaning those are exposed somewhere besides this paper
07:56:14 <Bike> classical arithmetic is recursive too...
07:57:03 <quintopia> classical arithmetic is usually implemented iteratively, and a lot of it is ENTIRELY parallelizable
07:57:51 <quintopia> like, to do x^y, you don't compute x*(x^(y-1))
08:00:12 <ion> what is this i don’t even http://redalertlive.com/2013/11/18/body-modification-piercings-lip-plates/
08:02:53 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FavUpD_IjVY
08:04:02 <ion> cyriak & cyriak & cyriak
08:28:19 <JesseH> Is there a community like this one, but for non-esoteric prog langs?
08:29:46 <JesseH> Like where you can talk about the creation of programming languages, unharmed :P
08:34:04 <lexande> it doesn't seem like such discussion would be considered offtopic here?
08:35:59 <JesseH> It seems like it would to me, or could be.
08:37:09 <JesseH> Just went ahead and made #nonesoteric :P
08:39:00 <JesseH> No thats a stupid name :P
08:39:22 <JesseH> Because the creation of programming languages doesnt mean just nonesoteric ones
08:39:54 <JesseH> But this channel is centered around esoteric, so thats why I was wondering.
08:40:10 <ion> I think there should be a channel for each real number representing esotericness.
08:40:41 <ion> I hear #esoteric-0.594381… is great.
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09:31:14 <mroman_> JesseH: Please don't create a Java derivative.
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09:31:46 <JesseH> Example would would be
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09:31:53 <mroman_> May I suggest a more verbose version of J
09:32:29 <mroman_> but generally I'm pretty sure J kicks ass
09:33:19 <mroman_> and we need more kick ass languages
09:33:58 <JesseH> Derplang is going to be a kick ass language :P
09:34:12 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 2h 30m 31s ago: why did you expand the definitions of sin and cos on SELECT.? and why not the others? (i prefer the unexpanded versions because it shortens the code i have to write
09:34:13 <lambdabot> if i can just call other ones as subroutines.)
09:34:23 <mroman_> way too lowlevel @derplang
09:35:29 <JesseH> Handling lists is going to be interesting; I was thinking
09:35:40 <oerjan> @tell quintopia Because SELECT. is a complex number language and the unexpanded versions only hold for reals. and because i didn't remember the inverse versions and my brain didn't feel like working it out.
09:35:59 <mroman_> Can I create 3D figures and then let derplang calculate its volume?
09:36:22 <mroman_> where are matrices, vectors
09:36:42 <JesseH> If you want special things, you probably will have to implement it yourself.
09:37:42 <JesseH> Ill create a package manager thing, so we can easily share libraries :P
09:38:23 <oerjan> @tell quintopia alternatively s/remember/ever learn how branch cuts work for/
09:39:34 <mroman_> At least don't use Integers for Listindices
09:40:10 <mroman_> There should be a data type for indicies
09:40:30 <mroman_> that behaves like an integer but safer
09:44:20 <mroman_> that overloads + and - or something
09:44:35 <mroman_> If Java had operator overloading .
09:45:27 <mroman_> Operator Overloading for Haskell...
09:45:49 <mroman_> Did they consider that to prevent operator hell?
09:46:44 <mroman_> foo :: String -> Int; foo x = read x; foo :: Int -> String; foo x = show x;
09:47:05 <mroman_> I assume it would be possible to detect which version of foo is meant
09:47:18 <oerjan> um that's what type classes are for.
09:47:34 <mroman_> But type class != overloading
09:47:50 <mroman_> i.e (+) is reserved for Num
09:47:59 <mroman_> so you can't use (+) for anything that is not a Num
09:48:27 <mroman_> so you have ++ for strings
09:48:35 <mroman_> because it wouln't really work well with the regular +
09:48:39 <oerjan> type classes were invented because the haskell inventors considered usual overloading ugly and messy.
10:15:21 <HackEgo> [U+0810 SAMARITAN LETTER FI]
10:16:11 <oerjan> hm in putty it _is_ invisible.
10:38:49 <kmc> myname: C# seems pretty un-eso to me
10:39:15 <kmc> it's like java but without all the useful features you'd want inexplicably missing
11:17:22 <oerjan> am i getting overly trigger happy
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11:38:21 <kmc> unsigned integers, lambdas, tuples, monad comprehensions (kinda), operator overloading, reference parameters, generators, optional & named arguments, extension methods
11:38:42 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_C_Sharp_and_Java
11:40:10 <kmc> oh the lambda is also an AST quotation and you can do dynamic macros and JIT them
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11:43:16 <kmc> so yeah, C#: actually pretty good and cool
11:43:52 <kmc> I haven't really needed it so far, but I would seriously consider it for a future project, although I'd have to first convince myself Mono is fully-baked enough
11:44:07 <kmc> (it was fine for the one toy project I did in C#)
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12:02:48 <mroman_> I'm a bit disappointed that those languages are so framework dependant
12:03:16 <mroman_> C# is really a neat language
12:03:35 <mroman_> But I'd rather have it produce native code
12:05:17 <mroman_> or at least they should have considered portability a bit better
12:05:28 <kmc> it does produce native code, via JIT
12:05:37 <kmc> what properties associated with "native code" do you actually care about?
12:07:02 <mroman_> It's better for compile'n'run
12:08:03 <mroman_> which means it's more portable
12:09:14 <kmc> you mean that you don't want to have a JIT around at runtime?
12:09:22 <kmc> for size reasons?
12:09:27 <mroman_> I don't care if it's JITed
12:09:56 <mroman_> It's probably even better if it's JITed
12:11:24 <mroman_> But JIT requires an extra installation of some software on your system
12:11:39 <kmc> well you could bundle the JIT with every executable ;P
12:11:55 <mroman_> But I'm not sure how big the Java JIT is :)
12:12:46 <mroman_> Although that sounds too much
12:13:06 <kmc> anyway does the C# spec even forbid, say, an ahead-of-time compiled implementation?
12:13:15 <kmc> i'm not sure whether the spec requires the full Common Language Infrastructure
12:13:29 <kmc> it might, I have no specific knowledge of it
12:13:37 <mroman_> kmc: I don't think so @CLI
12:13:42 <mroman_> But I haven't read the spec.
12:14:15 <mroman_> Seeing as C# is used in OSDEV I assume you don't need a huge runtime around it
12:14:36 <kmc> so if your complaint is that Microsoft's C# implementation is not the kind of C# implementation you'd want to use, that's not a complaint with C# the language
12:14:41 <kmc> Mono has http://www.mono-project.com/AOT
12:14:50 <kmc> don't know anything about it past 2 seconds of reading that page ;P
12:14:55 <kmc> mroman_: what's it used for in os dev?
12:15:30 <mroman_> For "Hey look I can write an OS in C#"-stuff
12:15:55 <mroman_> Much like "Hey look I can write an OS in Ada, Cobol, Pascal, Delphi"-Stuff
12:16:06 <mroman_> kmc: Singularity is probably C#?
12:17:16 <mroman_> It's the Framework I don't like :)
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12:17:49 <kmc> I don't like Windows so I'd never use MSFT's C# stuff anyway
12:17:55 <kmc> but I might use it via Mono sometime
12:18:20 <mroman_> and now with new .NET and wpf and stuff you have even more feature rich stuff
12:19:15 <mroman_> kmc: Or you find someone who does C# on JVM
12:20:06 <mroman_> Apparentely there's the "Stab programming language"
12:20:24 <kmc> every programming language is a stab programming language
12:20:31 <mroman_> http://code.google.com/p/stab-language/
12:25:24 <lambdabot> (Integral e, Num a) => ASetter s t a a -> e -> s -> t
12:25:48 <lambdabot> `^' (imported from Prelude), `^^' (imported from Prelude),
12:26:22 <lambdabot> Profunctor p => Setting p s t a b -> p a b -> s -> t
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12:59:50 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | The most corum, clargoint chait you could ever loofefl your slance in. | Magnus!!!! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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13:12:46 <boily> good exclamative morning?
13:12:58 <boily> @tell oerjan what with the drive-by topicking?
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13:45:35 <kmc> how are you?
13:59:28 <boily> doing well. how's life on your end?
14:00:12 <kmc> pretty good
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14:04:00 <metasepia> KSFO 211356Z 25003KT 10SM SCT013 BKN023 OVC042 10/09 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP137 T01000089
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14:06:04 <boily> kmc: I'm guessing you're currently eating breakfast?
14:06:59 <kmc> it's 23:06 here
14:07:55 <boily> ooookay... either my file is wrong, or the Earth has a very, very weird curvature today.
14:08:39 <boily> you're not in Frisco anymore?
14:09:26 <kmc> i'm vacationing in japan
14:09:39 * kmc twitches at "Frisco"
14:11:14 <boily> オォ！すごい！どこにいっていますか？
14:12:40 <kmc> i can't read any of that -_-
14:12:48 <kmc> but google informs me you asked where i'm going in japan
14:13:45 <kmc> osaka, nara, kyoto, hiroshima, tokyo in that order
14:13:50 <kmc> i'm in hiroshima right now, heading to tokyo tomorrow night
14:14:17 <kmc> this is after a work week + a few days of touristing in Seoul
14:14:49 <kmc> which means that work paid for my flights across the Pacific which is すごい indeed
14:16:27 <kmc> btw Hangul is the coolest writing system ever
14:17:15 <boily> I fear my main motivation to learn languages spoken in Asia is to understand what's written on restaurant menus... >_>'...
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14:24:38 <kmc> seems fine to me
14:27:21 <kmc> you can learn to read hangul in a few hours
14:27:46 <kmc> or as one of the developers of the alphabet put it, "a wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days"
14:31:16 <boily> on the other end of the spectrum, culinary cantonese is unbelievably hard, not for the characters themselves, but the poetic metaphors and shortcuts.
14:53:37 <boily> I'll take pictures tonight of a potential source of incomprehensibility.
14:54:15 <kmc> do you know anything about szechuan cooking, by the way?
14:54:32 <kmc> i quite like szechuan food and we cook it at home sometimes
14:55:38 <boily> I tried my hand at it a few times, but I have to hone my techniques.
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15:04:00 <boily> kmc: some day, I'll succumb to the temptation, and buy a portable electric stove with a fondue pot, and make myself real sichuanese fiery fondue of deathly agonizing doom.
15:24:23 <boily> next step: find a recipe with raccoon meat. there are more than enough overweight raccoons on Mont Royal.
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16:20:50 <HackEgo> Sorella_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:21:47 <metasepia> Gnathostomata are the jawed vertebrates.
16:25:01 <boily> it's a well-known anatidæ feature.
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16:40:19 <JesseH> I think I have decided to keep the old derplang syntax, since more people have told me they like it over the new
16:56:29 <mrhmouse> Slereah: how is your trek into assembly going?
17:03:33 <JesseH> you could say he...JMPd right in...
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17:19:51 <Slereah> I went to bed and went to class
17:20:01 <Slereah> I'll investigate this week end
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17:35:46 <quintopia> what isn't the command called ~anatidae
17:38:50 <quintopia> @tell oerjan the unexpanded versions work for complex numbers too, as that's exactly how i implemented it and got right answers. and the inverse trig functions branch the same way as log (e.g. the principal branch of each agrees)
17:43:25 <Slereah> Why do most computer things use reals instead of rationals
17:43:45 <Slereah> Rationals are easy to code, easy to operate with, and floating points are just really rationals in the end
17:45:25 <Slereah> There's the possibility of wasted space I guess
17:45:39 <Slereah> Since 1/2 = 1*10^30 / 2*10^30
17:45:57 <Slereah> You could be overflowing needlessly
17:46:23 <mrhmouse> Some languages work with rationals by default.
17:46:56 <mrhmouse> And probably many functional languages
17:47:17 <mrhmouse> There's still the floating point type to store irrational numbers.
17:47:27 <Slereah> LISP would be great for it, since a rational is just a list of two integers
17:47:38 <mrhmouse> And I think most general purpose languages have some way of dealing with rationals
17:48:00 <Slereah> You can't store irrational numbers in a floating point
17:48:10 <Slereah> Most irrationals aren't computable
17:48:32 <mrhmouse> No, but you can store a better approximation (read: smaller in size) in floating point
17:49:27 <Slereah> I wonder what would be the most efficient way of encoding some real number approximatively
17:51:59 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia. because I lack imagination.
17:55:39 <boily> Slereah: const real x = 0;
17:56:15 <Slereah> That's a pretty big approximation
17:56:36 <Slereah> If you encode it on one bit, at least do "0 or not 0"
17:56:49 <boily> I'm an approximation expert, with a specialisation in coördinates.
18:00:12 <Slereah> I guess you could encode algebraic numbers as a vector of their polynoms
18:00:18 <Slereah> I wonder what precision that would allow
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18:13:03 <boily> Slereah: as a certified appröximator, what are your coördinates and body weigh?
18:13:26 <boily> quintopia: today thursdays.
18:13:53 <quintopia> i couldn't sleep any more even though i was so sleepy
18:26:09 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:27:12 * boily removes fizzie's eggtimer and glues it onto quintopia
18:27:35 <quintopia> do i have to stand on my head to reset it
18:29:40 <boily> only if you start seeing Ephemeral Shadow-Bats because of sleep deprivation.
18:33:05 -!- Bike has joined.
18:57:37 <Slereah> https://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/aEwpeEe_460sa.gif
18:59:13 <mrhmouse> is it really that big of a deal? (the G+ / YouTube linking)
18:59:33 <Bike> it ruins the sanctity of youtube comments.
18:59:38 <mrhmouse> I haven't actually noticed, since I've had a G+ account for ages..
19:00:47 <ais523> it's caused YouTube comments to stop working for me altogether
19:00:51 <ais523> which is arguably a good thing, but…
19:02:17 <mrhmouse> Maybe that's another reason I haven't noticed...
19:02:42 <boily> if youtube comments can't be youtube comments, that'll cause an overflow and drown the rest of the intarwebs under a neverending flood!
19:14:58 <lexande> boily: what did we do before youtube existed?
19:16:05 <quintopia> upload videos in actual video formats
19:16:13 <quintopia> to actual directories of web servers
19:16:50 <Bike> anyone remember quicktime
19:17:01 <lexande> yeah but where did the comments overflow to?
19:17:56 <quintopia> people watched videos in silence in the comfort of their own hard drive
19:18:09 <boily> back in the Previous Era, people overflowed in newspapers.
19:18:12 <quintopia> if they had a comment they wrote it in a text file and saved it for themselves to look at later
19:18:57 <quintopia> boily: now, at the end of the movie, they always overflow on her face
19:19:35 <boily> or, in horror movies, a Supernatural Floating Disflagrated Face.
19:19:53 <Bike> so uh, the original strongly agree-agree-neutral-disagree-strongly disagree scale was kinda fucked up https://twitter.com/mc_hankins/status/403270681846378496/photo/1/large
19:23:05 <Bike> unnnnrelated but you could vote in this poll, it's got ada lovelace and grace hopper. http://www.bobbleheads.com/bobblehead-scientist-poll.html
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19:38:34 <lambdabot> boily said 6h 25m 35s ago: what with the drive-by topicking?
19:38:34 <lambdabot> quintopia said 1h 59m 43s ago: the unexpanded versions work for complex numbers too, as that's exactly how i implemented it and got right answers. and the inverse trig functions branch the same way
19:38:34 <lambdabot> as log (e.g. the principal branch of each agrees)
19:38:58 <oerjan> boily: magnus won another game hth
19:40:31 <oerjan> quintopia: i fail to see how cos(x) = Re(e^(i*x)) can work for complex numbers given that the correct answer isn't always real.
19:41:48 <oerjan> obviously not a good example.
19:41:52 <lambdabot> 0.8337300251311491 :+ (-0.9888977057628651)
19:42:34 <quintopia> oerjan: perhaps i should reimplement and expand my test cases :P
19:42:53 <boily> ~eval sin 1 == (exp (0 :+ 1) - exp (0 :+ -1)) / (0 :+ 2)
19:42:54 <metasepia> Error (1): Precedence parsing error
19:42:54 <metasepia> cannot mix `Data.Complex.:+' [infix 6] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infix expression
19:43:03 <boily> ~eval sin 1 == (exp (0 :+ 1) - exp (0 :+ (-1))) / (0 :+ 2)
19:43:27 <FireFly> Implementation of cos(x) in what?
19:43:48 <oerjan> in http://esolangs.org/wiki/SELECT.
19:44:13 * oerjan wonders how many clients will erroneously leave out the dot.
19:44:37 <oerjan> well, among those who make it a link in the first place.
19:44:41 <int-e> > let i = 0 :+ 1; cos' x = (exp (i*x) + exp(-i*x))/2 in (cos (1 :+ 1), cos' (1 :+ 1))
19:44:43 <lambdabot> (0.8337300251311491 :+ (-0.9888977057628651),0.833730025131149 :+ (-0.98889...
19:45:03 <FireFly> Oh, the dot was part of it
19:45:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yw: not found
19:45:52 <quintopia> oerjan: wait a second. what's the difference between (x+x*)/2 and (e^ix+e^-ix)/2 again?
19:46:01 <Taneb> You're welcome, Firefly. You're wireFly
19:46:10 <oerjan> quintopia: there is no conjugation in the latter.
19:46:12 <int-e> oerjan: You could try http://esolangs.org/wiki/SELECT%2E. ;-)
19:46:32 <oerjan> just two numbers that _happen_ to be conjugate if x is real.
19:47:40 <quintopia> it's not clear to me what happens when they are complex
19:48:21 <oerjan> cos and sin are entire analytic functions in the complex plane, the expressions in e give the same result as the usual power series everywhere.
19:49:32 <nooodl_> i guess e^(i(a+bi)) = e^(ia) * e^(-b)?
19:51:32 <boily> e^(ia) e^(ia) e^(complex fhtaghn)
19:51:40 <oerjan> btw (e^(i*x))* = e^(-i*x*)
19:52:15 <nooodl_> postfix * is confusing as fuck
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19:56:41 <oerjan> quintopia: well e^(ix) and e^(-ix) are essentially the exponential with arguments rotated 90 degrees, which switches which of real and imaginary direction is growing and which is periodic. and then you take linear combinations of that, to make similar functions that are real on reals.
19:57:06 <boily> oerjan, stop being fungot. twh.
19:57:06 <fungot> boily: generally alternative rock or ska. uh, i have trouble assimilating a url that refers to it....
19:57:42 <oerjan> so cos and sin in imaginary direction are approximately growing exponentially.
19:57:46 <Bike> So is there some easy way to get cos and sin out of exp for complex values?
19:58:12 <oerjan> Bike: um yes that's what started this.
19:58:27 <oerjan> cos(x) = (e^(i*x)+e^(-i*x))/2
19:58:27 <oerjan> sin(x) = (e^(i*x)-e^(-i*x))/(2*i)
19:58:43 <Bike> right. silly me.
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19:59:22 <oerjan> boily: how am i fungot when the sword alone cannot stop!
19:59:23 <fungot> oerjan: sounds like fnord talk. then again as has been demonstrated... i've been wondering about encoding things like stress and vowel lengths...)
20:00:12 <oerjan> fungot: you mean you're working on an audio version of yourself? i think fizzie would appreciate that.
20:00:12 <fungot> oerjan: aww. hold it gently.) but it has slower screen updates as they happen when you were fnord
20:00:42 <oerjan> fungot: audio versions don't need screen silly
20:00:42 <fungot> oerjan: i'm unclear as to how to extract information from gnomon, should he ever join the fnord
20:01:27 <fizzie> I would certainly "appreciate" an incessantly babbling audio-fungot in my home, sure.
20:01:28 <fungot> fizzie: they're cheating a bit with the old version
20:02:33 <boily> fizzie: imagine, a fungot plushie with an embedded speaker. the world would be a much better place!
20:02:33 <fungot> boily: fnord francais? ( assuming that code is valid:
20:02:39 <oerjan> fungot: i am not sure extracting that information is good for sanity.
20:02:39 <fungot> oerjan: i've been looking in the wrong timezones ( as opposed to what you explained above
20:02:47 <boily> fungot: oui, une version francophone serait appréciée.
20:02:48 <fungot> boily: someone could tell fizzie to stop reading before an overflow would fnord, and t f)
20:03:52 <oerjan> fizzie: stop reading before an overflow would fnord hth
20:06:04 <boily> fizzie: do you have a large enough French corpus available for fungotification?
20:06:04 <fungot> boily: only if your kidneys are borked, xerox. xerox, fnord copier, xerox machine ( duplicator that copies graphic matter by the action of a failure continuation
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20:06:57 <int-e> fungot: your insightfulness dazzles me
20:06:57 <fungot> int-e: fnord!.... u shouldnt help ppl fnord suicide u fnord!.
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20:13:08 <fungot> FireFly: do you think human reasoning is like.
20:13:50 <int-e> fungot, yes, it's very much like.
20:13:50 <fungot> int-e: you have a lot of votes in 1996 due to pure cash flow... nobody even seemed to care about support for syntax extensions in 5.1, but hey, i do
20:14:06 <lexande> fungot: yes, i think facebook has made that much clear
20:14:07 <fungot> lexande: it's pretty much fnord i'm not an expert audio fnord, that's what it means in her area. and all.)
20:14:14 <oerjan> @tell mrhmouse <mrhmouse> Well, I think Haskell does <-- nope, the defaults are bignum Integer and floating point Double. although Rational is there too, but doesn't support all the same functions as either of those.
20:14:38 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Real.Rational)
20:14:55 <int-e> > toRational $ sin pi
20:14:56 <lambdabot> 4967757600021511 % 40564819207303340847894502572032
20:15:22 <oerjan> mrhmouse: i don't trust people who have been idle for an hour.
20:16:31 <mrhmouse> oerjan: which language am I thinking of that defaults to rationals? I'm certain it was at least similar to Haskell in syntax
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20:17:41 <oerjan> @let default (Integer, Rational, Double) -- whistles innocently
20:18:21 <oerjan> oh wait defaults don't get imported, and @lets go into the L.hs module.
20:18:56 <oerjan> @let (test, _) = (1/2, undefined)
20:19:40 <oerjan> hm this is probably messing somewhere.
20:20:14 <oerjan> mrhmouse: also, i dunno.
20:23:14 <oerjan> i suppose with > the actual use of test flows back to the inference.
20:23:41 <boily> AAAAAAAAURGH WHY WON'T YOU GIVE ME A STACK TRACE YOU FSCKING STUPID FRAMEWORK I ALREADY KNOW IT'S A 500 ERROR I WANT DETAAAAAIIILLLLSSS!!!!!
20:23:52 <boily> (sorry. ranting against django.)
20:24:03 <oerjan> also lambdabot probably has monomorphism restriction turned off, hm
20:24:31 <oerjan> although i was hoping the tuple would get around that.
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20:24:57 <oerjan> > let (x, y) = 1 `divMod` 2 in (x :: Int, y :: Integer)
20:26:57 <oerjan> > (typeOf test, denominator test)
20:27:20 <int-e> well if it is polymorphic then ... of course.
20:27:29 <int-e> but I'm confused as to why
20:27:58 <oerjan> well it's polymorphic given the monomorphism restriction is turned off.
20:28:29 <oerjan> and that means it gets exported polymorphic, and the default declaration in L.hs gets no chance to fire.
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20:29:25 <mrhmouse> Ugh this is going to drive me mad. I could swear I was reading a language tutorial ages ago that showed "1 / 3" at the prompt and "1 / 3" as the response...
20:29:25 <oerjan> so instead the usual defaulting (same as ghci?) happens for lambdabot expressions.
20:30:31 <FireFly> mrhmouse: why are you looking for this?
20:30:31 <oerjan> @let showTest = show test
20:30:38 -!- metasepia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:31:20 <HackEgo> cherez: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:31:20 <oerjan> there you go. since show test has type String, the defaulting of test has to happen even with the monomorphism restriction, since the type cannot escape.
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20:31:45 <mrhmouse> FireFly: Slereah was talking about rationals, and I thought I remembered that Haskell defaulted to Rational. But it isn't Haskell.. but I remember _some_ language did that...
20:31:48 <oerjan> and showTest is inside L.hs so uses its defaulting declaration.
20:32:40 <oerjan> and it was similar in syntax? would SML do that?
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20:37:58 <oerjan> @let (evil, attempt) = (show attempt, mempty)
20:37:59 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show a0) arising from a use of `show'
20:38:05 <HackEgo> evalj: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:38:09 <HackEgo> b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:38:16 -!- JesseH has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:38:18 <boily> cherez: what brings you to this channel?
20:38:22 <b_jonas> can I get that without colors?
20:38:33 <ais523> oerjan: I like that word
20:38:37 <oerjan> WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST COLORS
20:38:39 <boily> b_jonas: you may, but it's untraditional.
20:38:40 <HackEgo> b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:38:40 <HackEgo> b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:38:56 <ais523> also, huh, didn't expect to see b_jonas over here
20:38:56 <FireFly> I think you're sufficiently `welcome'd now
20:39:15 <oerjan> ais523: do you think i was trigger happy in blocking PcCleaner
20:39:19 <ais523> but then, I don't generally expect to see anyone happy over here
20:39:31 <ais523> oerjan: I was scouring the relevant logs to try to find something to block them for :)
20:39:33 <boily> ais523: I AM HAPPY, FUNGOT IT!
20:39:34 <cherez> boily: Nothing in particular. Old friends with pikhq and thought it might be fun to lurk here a bit.
20:39:42 <ais523> but I'd have allowed account creation
20:40:26 <ais523> if you're blocking someone on the basis of username, you should give them a chance to change it
20:40:32 <oerjan> ais523: i mean it seems to be named after what seems to be a scam company at best.
20:40:44 <ais523> the name's free on Freenode, btw? anyone want it?
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20:45:09 <boily> but, but... I was typing a nice `relcome...
20:46:14 <ais523> it's one of those weird things about IRC, people who say hello, then get annoyed at the lack of response and leave before you have a chance to type a response
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20:56:59 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, mueval turns off the monomorphism restriction without being asked to.
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21:02:01 <b_jonas> int-e: I guess on this channel an evaluator bot should use the craziest extensions by default, such as not only no monomorphism restrictions, but also circular types, undecidable instances, etc
21:02:30 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah but the primary channel it's for is #haskell
21:02:33 * boily points to metasepia “Go nuts with it! But be careful with the error messages”
21:02:42 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but use channel-dependent options
21:03:09 <lambdabot> run <expr>. You have Haskell, 3 seconds and no IO. Go nuts!
21:03:20 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
21:03:48 <metasepia> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
21:04:31 -!- Bike has joined.
21:05:21 <b_jonas> @run let { x = print; } in x
21:05:41 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
21:06:57 <evalj> b_jonas: *Exception: *Exception: *Exce
21:07:08 <evalj> b_jonas: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception:
21:10:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (Monoid a0) arising from a use of `mempty'...
21:10:46 <oerjan> interesting. @let seems to use the monomorphism restriction.
21:11:19 <oerjan> when checking if the addition is sane.
21:12:12 <b_jonas> @run let { x = show; } in x () ++ x []
21:14:09 <int-e> oerjan: it uses some ghc invocation for type-checking L.hs, but mueval for the final evaluation. (it seems that mueval *also* does not explicitly turn off the monomorphism restriction ... next stop will be hint ...)
21:14:43 <oerjan> b_jonas: i don't recall haskell having any extension for circular types.
21:16:58 <metasepia> Error (1): No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid a0) arising from a use of `e_1'
21:16:58 <metasepia> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
21:16:58 <metasepia> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
21:16:58 <metasepia> Note: there are several potential instances:
21:16:58 <metasepia> instance Data.Monoid.Monoid () -- Defined in `base:Data.Monoid'
21:16:58 <metasepia> instance (Data.Monoid.Monoid a, Data.Monoid.Monoid b) =>
21:16:59 <metasepia> instance (Data.Monoid.Monoid a, Data.Monoid.Monoid b,
21:17:01 <metasepia> ...plus 18 othersNo instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
21:17:02 <metasepia> arising from a use of `M175202735352782162727845.show_M175202735352782162727845'
21:17:15 <int-e> type families can be abused for that to some extent ... with horrible, horrible type errors when things go wrong.
21:19:09 <oerjan> boily: i think you mean SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM
21:20:45 <boily> plan for the holidays: eat food. eat food. revamp metasepia. eat food. eat food. enjoy saner error messages!
21:25:20 <int-e> oerjan,boily: you might like http://int-e.eu/~bf3/haddock/typeeval-0.0/
21:26:36 <boily> int-e: I might not understand it.
21:27:27 <int-e> any Haskell programmer will tell you that Node 42 [False, True] and Node 42 [Node 23 [], Leaf 0] should not type-check at the same time.
21:27:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: really? let me check the ghc manual. I really thought there was one, only nobody uses it because it masks too much errors.
21:28:03 <int-e> (And I agree. I wrote that ... code, and I never used it after encountering type errors reminiscent of C++.)
21:28:10 <b_jonas> and because if you really want a circular type you can get one by that higher order type trick
21:29:56 <b_jonas> hmm, did I just imagine that there was such an option in ghc?
21:30:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: generally you use newtypes and they're optimized away.
21:30:41 <oerjan> also, ocaml has one, i used it once.
21:31:07 <oerjan> (to implement unlambda)
21:32:19 <b_jonas> @type let { x = [x]; } in x
21:32:20 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t0 = [t0]
21:33:10 * boily is tempted to run that in ~eval, but he spammed once today so he'll be wise and not do it.
21:33:38 <boily> int-e: my Haskell-fu is diminishing. too much Python for the past few months.
21:34:49 <b_jonas> strange, it looks like ghc doesn't have such an extension
21:35:14 <b_jonas> but why? I mean, it seems like something those people who develop some of the other crazy type system extensions would want to try
21:35:29 <b_jonas> can it not be made to a consistent type system extension?\
21:36:13 <b_jonas> that is, an extension such that if an occurs check finds a cycle in type constraints, it just creates a cyclic type instead of an error
21:36:30 <b_jonas> maybe it doesn't play well with higher order types or something?
21:36:30 <int-e> there's no big pressure (newtype Mu f = Mu (f (Mu f)) gets the desired effect with some extra source code)
21:36:49 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but you have seen some of the other type system extensions people have added
21:36:57 <b_jonas> I'd have thought they'd try this too
21:37:11 <shachaf> int-e: imo call that type Fix
21:37:27 <shachaf> newtype Fix f = Fix { runFix :: f (Fix f) }
21:37:37 <shachaf> newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }
21:37:42 <int-e> it's been done before -> less research interest.
21:37:45 <shachaf> data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
21:37:59 <Bike> opaque greek is the future, shachaf
21:38:01 <Bike> and also the past
21:38:31 <shachaf> Bike: what, that's not enough opacity for you??
21:38:36 <int-e> and from a practical perspective, I think having let x = [x] *not* typecheck is a great boon for sanity.
21:38:56 <shachaf> Oh, you're talking about equirecursive types.
21:39:04 <shachaf> Yes, there are various good reasons not to have them.
21:39:07 <b_jonas> I have to assume someone tried but it turned out if you combine it with some other language features you lose the guarantee of the compilation terminating or you can prove Void or something crazy like that so they didn't add them
21:39:15 <b_jonas> shachaf: I know why we don't have them by default:
21:39:21 <b_jonas> they'd mask too many errors
21:39:32 <shachaf> ocaml supports them, I think.
21:39:51 <b_jonas> but I was wondering why we don't have it as a language extension
21:40:13 <int-e> otoh, as far as I know, ocaml frowns on data Tree a = Level a | Nest (Tree (a,a))
21:40:45 <b_jonas> int-e: that's non-regular types or whatever that's called, right?
21:41:15 <int-e> "non-regular" makes sense, but I don't know.
21:41:34 <b_jonas> I think that feature had two names, and non-regular may or may not have been one of them
21:43:05 <oerjan> polymorphic recursion is used for the functions operating on such things, at least.
21:47:18 <shachaf> If I remember correctly, polymorphic recursion is the issue. You might even be able to define the type itself?
21:47:38 <b_jonas> shachaf: what? define what type where?
21:48:04 <shachaf> Not too useful without functions to operate on it.
21:48:42 <shachaf> I liked Conal's talk at http://conal.net/talks/understanding-parallel-scan.pdf
21:48:52 <oerjan> i think shachaf means in ocaml, which doesn't have polymorphic recursion.
21:49:13 <oerjan> and so even if you could define the type, you couldn't use it for anything.
21:50:11 <b_jonas> or maybe you could only use it non-parametrically, limited to the first compile-time-finite many depths
21:50:23 <b_jonas> which doesn't buy you anything over just separate type
21:50:52 <b_jonas> similarly to what would happen in C++
21:51:12 <b_jonas> you could define a type that looks like this, but you can only ever instantiate finitely many in a program
21:51:23 <b_jonas> if you try unlimited recursion, the compiler will give up
21:53:43 <b_jonas> now I'm curious, can ocaml do the higher order type quantification trick haskell's ST does?
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21:58:17 <b_jonas> I thought at one point whether C++ can do it, and decided it can't, because even though it can do higher order quantification, sort of, it can't prove things about it, so can't enforce the kind of restriction ST depends on
22:07:23 <oerjan> the term is "higher rank" btw. dunno about ocaml, but doubt it unless they've added it after my time.
22:08:35 <shachaf> oerjan: when was your time
22:11:39 <Bike> today in confusing terminology: insect flight involves 'synchronous' and 'asynchronous' muscle, which are alllllmost analogous to programming
22:12:55 <oerjan> shachaf: 'bout 2002 or so.
22:14:03 <Bike> what's it like outliving the soviet union
22:14:41 <Taneb> I didn't even outlive Yugoslavia
22:18:57 <impomatic> Hmmm... Notepad++ handles a 2.6 million line 170 MB text file without any problems. Windows Notepad and Programmers Notepad both stopped responding.
22:21:51 <nooodl_> windows notepad can't really handle anything bigger than like 10k lines in my experience
22:22:45 <Bike> hum, curry's original paper defines \lambda^n ...vars... for an n-ary function, weird
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22:25:26 <oerjan> i assume they hadn't invented schönfinkeling yet
22:26:01 <olsner> "they" = schönfinkel? or did someone else invent schönfinkeling?
22:26:29 <Bike> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schonfinkeling
22:26:43 <oerjan> i noticed that in the google hits.
22:27:06 <oerjan> ach, du finkelst so schön
22:28:14 <oerjan> oh i can downvote it without registering
22:28:40 <b_jonas> I'm scared by sql triggers. they let you write almost arbitrary programs in sql, but only in a very ugly way
22:28:44 <Bike> "Finally, K converts a constant into a function with a constant value, or a function into one with an additional, fictitious variable."
22:29:39 <oerjan> b_jonas: so you are not trigger happy.
22:30:21 <b_jonas> they look like something that's very easy to abuse
22:30:34 <b_jonas> you start with some simple triggers and you end up in an unmaintenable mess
22:31:15 <olsner> hmm, I think I've forgotten what schönfinkeling is
22:31:20 <b_jonas> in sqlite3, you can have views with instead of insert triggers that basically simulate an arbitrary function
22:31:31 <Bike> backwards currying, i think?
22:31:46 <b_jonas> not quite arbitrary, but very close
22:31:58 <oerjan> b_jonas: so like this basically? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKajmVgaOEM
22:32:31 <oerjan> Bike: it's just currying, except with the correct inventor name.
22:32:55 <Bike> for what it's worth curry mentioned schofinkel a lot.
22:32:56 <b_jonas> of course the sqlite3 language can be scary even without triggers:
22:33:06 <b_jonas> there's no let statement, so if you need one you have to write a nested select
22:33:21 <olsner> "It was originated by Moses Schönfinkel and later worked out by Haskell Curry." says wp
22:33:23 <Bike> credits him with BCWK and SKI
22:33:39 <b_jonas> the normal solution is to do the variable copying from outside sql language, which sqlite3 totally allows to do easily
22:34:02 <b_jonas> you can copy results of a statement to the bindings of another statement without examining them
22:34:13 <Bike> and with proving SK is complete or whatever you call it.
22:34:42 <b_jonas> Bike: really? I thought Church proved that
22:36:13 <Bike> "Schönfinkel discovered that all combinators can be defined in terms of two special ones, S and K,"
22:36:47 <b_jonas> what did Church prove then?
22:36:53 <int-e> oerjan: Ok, it's hint's fault. When initialising, it queries the enabled extensions from ghc. Then it's translating MonomorphismRestriction to NoMonomorphismRestriction internally, but without inverting the current state of the extension.
22:38:50 <b_jonas> as for S and K, I recently bought Smullyan's mockingbird book because they just translated it
22:38:56 <Bike> b_jonas: that it's inconsistent, how to restrict it so that it's consistent, how to avoid variables entirely, bla bla bla
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22:39:24 <b_jonas> Bike: but isn't avoiding variables the whole point of S K ?
22:39:31 <b_jonas> or did he find some other basis instead?
22:39:52 <Bike> how to define things without reference to a lambda calculus meta formalism, i mean, i think
22:40:56 <b_jonas> do you mean construct them as functions or something like that?
22:42:33 <Bike> construct a formalism of combinators with no reference to functions
22:43:01 <b_jonas> huh? but it's exactly the lambda symbols that doesn't reference functions
22:43:06 <b_jonas> only syntax transform rules
22:43:31 <b_jonas> well, the S K or other combinator basis can also do that
22:43:46 <Bike> it's 'the combinatory basis of logic' or something if you want to read it yourself
22:45:27 <int-e> oerjan: there's even a bug report about it: http://darcsden.com/jcpetruzza/hint/issue/1 (different extension but same idea: hint only has NoImplicityPrelude)
22:48:43 <oerjan> is it just me or is darcsden kind of ugly.
22:49:02 <int-e> I don't know about you but darcsden *is* ugly.
22:54:57 <int-e> but now that that's fixed I better add a sane default directive there ...
22:55:20 <oerjan> um what's wrong with the default one.
22:55:21 <b_jonas> more about sqlite3, table constraints can be arbitrary expressions, and those expressions can call user-defined functions, and I think those functions can modify the database
22:55:42 <b_jonas> but now they added partial indices, but the conditions for partial indices can't call user-defined functions
22:55:45 <int-e> oerjan: nothing. I'm adding default (Integer,Double) so your @let will hopefully stop working :)
22:55:55 <b_jonas> the inconsistency seems a bit strange
22:56:10 <b_jonas> but I might be misunderstanding something here
22:56:13 <oerjan> int-e: ((),Integer,Double) is what ghci uses.
22:56:27 <int-e> @let default (Integer, Rational, Double)
22:57:21 <oerjan> also, that default only applies within the L module, iiuc
22:57:56 <int-e> oerjan: yes, I added () there, too. thanks for the hint :)
22:58:21 <b_jonas> obviously those constraints can not only modify the database but also have random return value, so the same contraints are sometimes true and sometimes false
22:58:51 <b_jonas> which would be wierd for both constraints and partial indices
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23:01:41 <int-e> > let (t,1) = (show,1) in t 1 ++ t ()
23:01:42 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num ()) arising from the literal `1'
23:02:36 <int-e> (MonoPatBinds was another one that went the wrong way ... hmm ... but I didn't test it right.)
23:06:46 <oerjan> > let t = show in t 1 ++ t ()
23:06:47 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num ()) arising from the literal `1'
23:07:13 <oerjan> > let t x = show x in t 1 ++ t ()
23:07:38 <oerjan> now start waiting for the barrage of complaints hth
23:08:32 <int-e> hmm. did that really change? *goes to test*
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23:15:17 <int-e> Ah, NoMonomorphismRestriction implies NoMonoLocalBinds, obviously.
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23:21:44 <int-e> meh. I'm being stupid.
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23:25:25 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: wee! restarting!).
23:26:51 <int-e> it's a bit annoying to have to restart lambdabot just because of an extra flag. oh well :)
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23:29:29 <int-e> > let t = show in t 1 ++ t ()
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23:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oh also meanwhile: http://blog.wolfram.com/2013/11/21/putting-the-wolfram-language-and-mathematica-on-every-raspberry-pi/
23:31:48 <int-e> oerjan: haha, darcshub is buggy, too: http://darcsden.com/jcpetruzza/hint/patches
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00:38:43 <Taneb> Someone in another channel fed KJV and SICP to a markov bot
00:38:53 <Taneb> "And Jonathan caused David to be different, such as new-withdraw, we will always be considered `unreal' in five years. See BITTY BOX and TOY. GIGO (gie'goh) [acronym] garbage in, garbage out. Usually said of problems spawns new languages."
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00:53:04 <kmc> that's wonderful
00:53:46 <Bike> do you ever look at a biography and realize they died young and feel bad
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01:01:17 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:01:24 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
01:01:31 <Taneb> fungot, what are you doing
01:01:31 <fungot> Taneb: you are not evil, terrible things are happening. this time you will not. hmm, no. j. k. rowling, who had given the thrashing we saw a webcomic with a missing.
01:01:47 <Taneb> fungot, I'm not evil? I think my userpage says otherwise
01:01:47 <fungot> Taneb: but, but... that's not a fish. it's a lump of rock! we didn't give any thought the guys at nasa has fast-tracked a prototype deep has held out well on the bright side, the snakes, and 9...
01:02:55 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
01:02:58 <Taneb> fungot, symbols, whose values are looked up in the court of the LORD's glory.
01:02:59 <fungot> Taneb: " they're just fnord,' the girl went on. ' it'd take all day.'
01:07:23 <Bike> fizzie: when you establish the CS books/holy text style, i can hook you up with a /lot/ of the latter
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01:20:18 <Taneb> I have the opportunity to give a CS-related talk at some point in the near-ish future
01:21:30 <Taneb> I'm somewhat tempted but at a loss for the topic
01:22:12 <Bike> the fast-growing hierarchy: applications to haskell-based microcontrollers
01:24:04 <Taneb> I was thinking either category theory or something about esolangs
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01:24:21 <Taneb> (there's pretty much no restrictions and it's not very formal or anything)
01:25:51 <Taneb> "Esolangs: programming language design as art?"
01:26:17 <Bike> that sounds way worse than mine imo
01:26:32 <Taneb> Yeah but I don't think I'm sufficiently cool to do yours
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01:52:07 <myndzi> this is hurting my head
01:52:12 <myndzi> probably because i don't know anything about it :P
01:52:40 <myndzi> if i have "mov rax, cs:qword_someshit" and then "call qword ptr [rax+140h]"
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01:53:03 <myndzi> what is it doing? calling the code pointed to by memory address rax + 140h i assume
01:53:23 <Fiora> it's calling the pointer at [rax+140h]
01:53:40 <Fiora> so it loads the 8 bytes at [rax+140h] into temporary space, and then calls /that/, I think.
01:53:43 <myndzi> so rax is 0 and it's just adding 0 for no good reason?
01:54:00 <Fiora> are you like, looking at compiled object code?
01:54:11 <myndzi> disassembled bios code
01:54:21 <myndzi> i went to put a wireless ac card in it
01:54:28 <myndzi> and its like NO I HAVE A WHITELIST U CANT USE WIRELESS CARDS LOLOL
01:54:37 <myndzi> so i'm to the part where i hack it to avoid that check :P
01:54:46 <myndzi> but i can't find where to do it
01:55:05 <Fiora> the "mov rax, cs:qword_...." might be a thing to load like, the base of the code segment or something, for PIC-ish addressing?
01:55:34 <myndzi> i don't know what that means, but i'm about to check out qword_180001ac8 + 140 and see if anything is there :P
01:56:13 <myndzi> okay, that's past the end of the code lol
01:56:29 <myndzi> the program that extracted this module was fucked up anyway
01:56:36 <myndzi> it had like 27 bytes of garbage before the MZ
01:56:43 <myndzi> maybe an equal amount got cut off the end?
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02:00:14 <myndzi> anyway, nope, didn't think so
02:00:31 <myndzi> there's like a bunch of 0 bytes and various places of the code load them in
02:00:46 <myndzi> i guess that's just how it is... but if so i have no idea where it's calling :|
02:07:57 <myndzi> appears to maybe be an external call
02:08:04 <myndzi> to some other part of the bios
02:08:30 <myndzi> so something would load the correct addresses there, they wouldn't be 0 at runtime obviously :P
02:08:48 <myndzi> and it's a qword which means it could be a long frickin' way away, so probabyl irrelevant for my purposes
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03:32:29 <adu> I didn't realize I had IRC open :)
03:32:49 <adu> can you repeat that in the form of a question?
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07:33:53 <fizzie> Bike: I still have the RFC style on the to-do list.
07:34:54 <fizzie> Also, won't people be offended if I put religious texts in?
07:35:50 <Bike> not if they're all dead religions, and that's where i come in
07:36:42 <fizzie> TIL: freenode channel guidelines imply human beings have been "designed".
07:36:54 <fizzie> [[ Speakers in physical proximity with each other communicate quite a bit of emotional context via this extra bandwidth. This context enables them to avoid misjudging the intent of their conversational partners. It also functions as an unconscious negative feedback mechanism to reduce the incidence of emotional "firestorms" which tend to disrupt the efficient flow of conversation. Human beings ...
07:37:00 <fizzie> ... look for this feedback and indeed they may be designed to require it. ]]
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07:37:17 <fizzie> I've always found the freenode pseudo-psychology material amusing.
07:37:46 <fizzie> (Have you polished your catalyst skills today?)
07:37:55 <Bike> amusement is about the most positive emotion i can muster in response to it
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07:40:30 <fizzie> I turned off my computer at home yesterday night since it wasn't really doing anything in particular and I would have had to reboot anyway, but now it's not responding to WOL packets. :/
07:46:24 <olsner> I guess the lack of psychic communication from fungot may lead to people misreading its intent and e.g. getting offended
07:46:24 <fungot> olsner: " no," said teppic. it was the rare kind of madness caused by being yourself for so long.
07:46:59 <fizzie> fungot: You certainly have your fair share of that.
07:46:59 <fungot> fizzie: ' commander vimes is keen on reports.' albert coughed nervously.
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07:50:22 <olsner> fungot: how long have you been yourself anyway?
07:50:22 <fungot> olsner: ' don't you dare patronize me!"
07:51:00 <tangentstorm> hey impomatic :) just heard about this channel, so i thought i'd come lurk :)
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14:17:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | The most corum, clargoint chait you could ever loofefl your slance in. | Magnus♔ | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
14:21:50 <boily> good U+2654 morning!
14:27:48 <fizzie> "-acoustic-mesh -- Preserve word-level acoustic information (times, scores, and pronunciations) in sausages, encoded as described in wlat-format(5)."
14:27:52 <fizzie> I like the terminology.
14:29:25 <boily> «acoustic sausages à la provençale, with an entrée of preserved meshes»
14:33:22 <fizzie> "-write-mesh-dir dir -- Similar, but write sausages to files in dir named after the utterance IDs."
14:33:36 <fizzie> "-init-mesh file -- Initialize the word confusion network by reading an existing sausage from file. This effectively aligns the lattice being processed to the existing sausage."
14:34:09 <Bike> fascinating... and delicious.
14:34:45 <boily> the sausages are egregious.
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14:46:35 <boily> hellogeyui. Tanelle.
14:47:59 <Taneb> Also I now own nerf guns help
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14:59:24 <S1> Some of you programming in deadfish?
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15:07:44 <boily> darn. too missed `relcomopprtunities...
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15:07:53 <boily> Taneb: what kind of nerf gun?
15:08:29 <Taneb> Elite Strongarm times 2
15:09:59 <kmc> https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/news/2013/11/22/heap-overflow-in-floating-point-parsing-cve-2013-4164/
15:10:03 <kmc> heap overflow
15:10:04 <kmc> in floating point parsing
15:11:15 <kmc> it's all there in the url people
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15:17:45 <kmc> in other news, i wrote a program that self-modifies its machine code by calling read()
15:18:22 <Bike> like, it reads into a 'buffer' in the middle of the program?
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15:22:37 <mroman_> and that program is used to control medical hardware, I hope?
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15:32:27 <kmc> a nuclear-powered flying hospital
15:34:43 <b_jonas> kmc: do you at least use a lock so another thread can't execute the function while you're modifying it?
15:37:38 <kmc> i don't have threads
15:37:42 <kmc> also i don't have functions
15:37:57 <kmc> or registers (except as necessary to call read())
15:38:58 <kmc> stay tuned for an article about it
15:39:39 <b_jonas> do you not even have other processes sharing that memory map executing simultanously for which you need an ipc lock?
15:41:04 <kmc> i guess it would be more eso if i did
15:41:10 <b_jonas> is this the kind of wasteful last century program that has a complete copy of its code allocated for just a single thread of execution? does your wood-powered hospital submarine waste its oil like it was last century too?
15:44:27 <kmc> let's go with 'yes'
15:57:28 <Slereah> If I were to try to find some PC speaker music from some old game
15:57:54 <Slereah> Can I do it by just looking at the binary for the opcodes of "send shit to the PC speaker"
15:59:17 <Slereah> (Or maybe with a disassembler to be more readable)
16:01:58 <int-e> there are no such opcodes. the pc speaker is driven by a programmable timer, which can be programmed via a couple of IO ports ... http://wiki.osdev.org/PC_Speaker may be useful
16:02:59 <Slereah> http://www.intel-assembler.it/portale/5/make-sound-from-the-speaker-in-assembly/8255-8255-8284-asm-program-example.asp
16:03:07 <Slereah> This is a pretty good description of it
16:04:52 <Slereah> Still I assume you cound find in a binary the "send to port 61H" parts
16:04:59 <Slereah> And maybe find the actual music from there
16:05:16 <Slereah> (though I guess it might be a procedure making it a bit more complicated)
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16:06:25 <kmc> dosbox has some debugging features
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16:11:57 <boily> mrhmouse: what is this mysterious thing you made at me?
16:21:03 <mrhmouse> it has a few basic situations that it checks for, and then it falls back to "Hello, <name>!".
16:22:16 <mrhmouse> Although maybe I should have it output similarly to `thanks. "Hello, boily. belloily."
16:47:47 <boily> but if you thankify the ello, it'll remove its charm!
16:48:38 <`^_^v> is there any list of "famous" PL problems like expression, samefringe, etc
16:49:03 <boily> rosettacode? PL shootout on alioth?
16:51:25 <`^_^v> i feel like rosetta code is mostly algorithms that can have different implementations based on the language, but don't really highlight the difficulty of a problem resulting from the languages design decisions, if that makes sense
16:57:21 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env node \ (function() { \ var consonant_then_o, ends_with_consonant, ends_with_e, name, starts_with_o; \ \ name = process.argv[2]; \ \ if (!(name != null ? name.length : void 0)) { \ console.log('Usage: ello <name>'); \ process.exit(); \ } \ \ ends_with_e = /(.*)(e)$/i; \ \ consonant_then_o = /(.*)([bcdfghjklm
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17:13:11 <mrhmouse> nooodl: what's wrong with JavaScript? :P
17:20:55 <`^_^v> prototypal inheritance is so 1990s
17:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> so meanwhile the first draft of the wolfram language documentation is up: http://reference.wolfram.com/language/
17:34:57 -!- S1_afk has changed nick to S1.
17:41:52 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's mathematica but named after Wolfram
17:42:26 <Phantom_Hoover> he makes sure to call it Wolfram Mathematica when he can get away with it
17:42:53 <Taneb> Maybe he was saying "Wolfram/Mathematica"
17:42:59 <Taneb> like some say "GNU/Linux"
17:43:09 <Phantom_Hoover> http://reference.wolfram.com/language/guide/WebOperations.html
17:43:22 <Phantom_Hoover> whoops, looks like something got past the search-and-replace
17:43:24 <Taneb> (I kind of want a linux distro with no GNU components, just to piss off Stallman)
17:44:31 <Taneb> I meant a desktop one, yeah
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17:48:10 <b_jonas> Taneb: that would be difficult
17:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> what you should do is have every contributor listed in the name rather than just GNU
17:55:04 <boily> when it's cold and rainy outside, nothing beats a good plate of random steamy italian food.
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18:26:48 <boily> sudden random interrogation: what happened to jsvine and his II?
18:29:47 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen jsvine ever
18:30:01 <HackEgo> 2013-08-05 21:08:56: <jsvine> Bike: you might like this: https://github.com/dwillis/post_haste
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18:39:55 <boily> mrhmouse: Infamous Interview.
18:40:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, <HackEgo> 2013-08-05 21:08:56: <jsvine> Bike: you might like this: https://github.com/dwillis/post_haste
18:41:10 <Bike> i don't remember august
18:43:28 <FireFly> August was like forever ago
18:43:34 <FireFly> even HackEgo seems to think so
18:45:03 <boily> fungot: how many evers is August for you?
18:45:03 <fungot> boily: ' not your fault you've moved into a city full of giants,' said detritus, stoically. ' i see here where it contains a number of surprised animals stared down at him.
18:45:34 <boily> fungot: pratchett style today, eh? and indeed, it ain't my problem. besides, giants live Downtown, and I don't.
18:45:35 <fungot> boily: " i suppose it makes sense anyway. there's only so much more clearly... wondering about going in and out of the window by their ankles
18:47:11 <fungot> FireFly: oats gave up and made a noise like a mouse blowing fnord, and eight, and a couple of ugly things were coiled up in the darkness, found the greasy pilings of a jetty, and clung to them, we're something that might have looked like part of the background hum of the castle mews. there was a question about music. power found its way out.
18:47:44 <fungot> FireFly: 45. file://localhost/ mnt/ space/ media/ books/ 1000+sci-fi%20books/%5bebooks%5d%201000+%20sciencefiction%20%26%20fantasy%20novels%20%28.lit%20forma/ pratchett%2c%20terry/ text/ 19/ fnord
18:47:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found
18:47:52 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
18:48:00 <Bike> whoa, whoa, that shit's illegal!!
18:48:31 <FireFly> fungot: I didn't know you're a pirate
18:48:31 <fungot> FireFly: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
18:48:59 <FireFly> Is this a sign? I think fungot wasn't content with my choice of style
18:48:59 <fungot> FireFly: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going, tough one. if we solve it,... i know...
18:49:22 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff
18:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry fungot i've underestimated the depths of your character
18:49:39 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: to, uhhh.... like nuns in the street, and has not named a programming language... as it's pretty difficult to get computers, but i think they can keep their bullsh*t straight.)
18:50:07 <FireFly> fungot: your code *is* good stuff, though
18:50:07 <fungot> FireFly: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! fnord fnord --user:protiousgeorge ( user talk:protioustalk) 01:44, 8 september. the officials of the european union's number, and can be extended by nesting them ( having one function call. if one is older. see http://okmij.org/ ftp/ papers/ lagarias/ paper/ html/ fnord
18:50:51 <boily> I have a dream. I dream that someday fungot will balance his parenthesises.
18:50:52 <fungot> boily: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube ( some youtube comments)
18:51:18 <fungot> boily: am i that much bad. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey
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19:03:38 <mrhmouse> I'd like to watch a fungottian version of Julius Caesar
19:03:38 <fungot> mrhmouse: and is one thing which you might want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has. you came through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through and through
19:04:15 <quintopia> i love it when it gets stuck in loops
19:05:08 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
19:05:12 <int-e> fungot is demonstrating Pollard's rho method?
19:05:12 <fungot> int-e: but that is so funny to read my previous post? again: no a320 has ever flown completely by computer and fully automated, there for taking him into the forest at over 200mph? wikipedia should not be allowed to show the ' tenor' roles...
19:05:35 <boily> quintopia: hintopia! before you ask, no package yet.
19:07:26 <boily> but I want your package!
19:08:18 <quintopia> i'm not in charge of that! talk to the postal service!
19:08:43 <quintopia> (unless you mean the other one. in which case, ... talk to "the postal service")
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19:12:57 <boily> ah, the joy of having to go through USPS and Postes Canada...
19:13:06 <Slereah> Hurray, got Flat Assembler to work!
19:13:11 <boily> (yes, I meant the other other one.)
19:13:30 <Slereah> Though I had to go to dosbox
19:13:42 <Slereah> Apparently windows 64 bits is a bit more finnicky
19:15:41 <int-e> yay, I can still do *that* ... mov al, 68h; int 29h; int 0x20h
19:17:09 <Slereah> I incremented the register and printed it
19:18:07 <boily> are your brainfscking your helloworld through assembly by hand? that's nice :D
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19:22:33 <int-e> and what on earth where they thinking when they decided to use $ as a terminator for strings... http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-2562.htm
19:23:02 <int-e> (maybe they didn't appreciate money back then? :) )
19:24:09 <boily> how do you print an '$', then?
19:24:54 <int-e> I should link to this copy, less infested by banners (but still some stuff from amazon. sigh. the internet is going to hell.). http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/rbinter/id/73/25.html
19:25:51 <int-e> boily: you can print single characters or use proper file IO: http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/rbinter/id/02/28.html
19:26:18 <int-e> (0 is stdin and 1 is stdout, I wonder where they got that from ;-) )
19:32:26 <boily> I have multiple aggressive adblocking and privacy-preserving extensions installed.
19:33:01 <boily> BX is on how many bytes?
19:35:35 <fizzie> Or half a 32-bit one, or one quarter of a 64-bit one.
19:40:29 <boily> so, at most 65536 open files at the same time.
19:40:37 <boily> (well, minus stdin, out and err)
19:45:31 <int-e> you'll run out of memory first
19:46:11 <Slereah> Which one is the 32 bit, EBX I think?
19:47:20 <int-e> Hah, I forgot that. CONFIG.SYS had a FILES directive for the number of files that could be opened at once; typical values would be 20 to 40.
19:47:50 <int-e> (keep in mind that as a rule, only one process would have files open at a time. so that's actually plenty.)
19:53:56 <fizzie> (It doesn't go any higher.)
19:54:55 <int-e> but that eats kilobytes of memory!
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20:13:51 <fizzie> I have FILES=80 in my CONFIG.SYS, it seems.
20:14:27 <fizzie> Oh, wait; there's FILES=35 for some other menu options.
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20:20:20 <ais523> fizzie: you still have a config.sys?
20:20:32 <boily> people here have weird, weird setups.
20:20:57 <boily> @tell zzo38 you are the weirdest.
20:21:34 <b_jonas> ais523: I have one too in my bochs dos install. I have to play commander keen somehow.
20:21:47 <fizzie> ais523: It's in ~/archive/backup/older/colin/old/misc_install/4dos/config.sys, so it's not exactly... active...
20:22:12 * ais523 runs locate config.sys
20:22:19 <ais523> I guess colin is a hostname
20:22:24 <fizzie> boily: A former hostname, indeed.
20:22:33 <b_jonas> well, I might be able to play it without a config.sys in dosbox, technically, but I run a real ms-dos in bochs more often
20:22:54 <b_jonas> I use dosbox only for games that don't run under bochs
20:23:42 <fizzie> I should perhaps do some directory cleaning some day.
20:24:01 <fizzie> As an illustrative example, there's the directory ~/__UBUNTU__/_MUST_SORT_/momusspace-before-crash/mnt/_NSA_MOVE_/music_unsorted/random/old/unsorted/ that has some music in it.
20:24:47 <b_jonas> ais: in fact, I also have a smaller bochs install that I wired up to irc and might be thematically approperiate for this channel:
20:24:56 <ais523> btw, I figured out what's up with Unity; it's trying to become Google Desktop
20:25:06 <b_jonas> you can run edlin in it to edit files, then bcc to compile C and run the executables
20:25:07 <ais523> which explains why people are confused
20:25:12 <b_jonas> so it can serve as an evalbot
20:25:16 <ais523> b_jonas: wow, I used to use bcc
20:25:17 <int-e> I guess /etc/dosemu/freedos/config.sys doesn't really count.
20:25:35 <b_jonas> I can show it if you want but it's a bit verbose so probably not on this channel
20:25:51 <int-e> (I would have to dig out the HD image from a previous PC)
20:25:56 <ais523> there's #esoteric-blah for things that are appropriate here except too verbose
20:25:59 <ais523> but it hasn't been used for ages
20:26:07 <ais523> and so I doubt anyone's there
20:27:27 <b_jonas> if you want to try it, just tell me so
20:28:02 <quintopia> evalbot? HackEgo is good enough for me...
20:28:27 <b_jonas> but this runs a full OS where you have root rights
20:28:41 <boily> there's an even more off-topic channel than #esoteric? wooooah, duuuuude...
20:28:44 <Bike> still sounds like hackego
20:29:09 <b_jonas> theoretically you can even install a new OS on it and reboot, all through irc, only you want a very small OS because it's not connected to the internet so you have to transmit all the files through irc
20:29:41 <int-e> "not connected to the internet" haha
20:30:17 <int-e> (no internet protocol, I got it, but it's still a funny claim when you can talk to it via IRC)
20:30:48 <ais523> technically, IRC would work without being part of the public Internet, despite the "Internet" in its name
20:30:52 <b_jonas> no, it's not no internet protocol
20:30:58 <b_jonas> it's that the virtual machine doesn't have a net connection
20:31:01 <ais523> Usenet used to not be part of the public Internet at all
20:31:08 <b_jonas> only a serial console which a wrapper connects to irc
20:31:13 <ais523> although nowadays nearly always goes over the Internet
20:31:25 <ais523> there's probably some Usenet-only cable still keeping it connected somewhere
20:32:53 <b_jonas> in theory you could install a linux on the vm and use the same wrapper, configured to talk through serial console, and it would still not have net access
20:34:22 <fizzie> Ah, but if you set it to talk slirp or something over the IRC to another system that's configured to route for it.
20:34:29 <fizzie> Then you could argue it suddely has net access.
20:34:33 <ais523> then the other system is proxying for it
20:34:36 <ais523> so it only has proxy access
20:34:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, only the bandwidth would be really slow
20:35:03 <fizzie> That's not any different from a carrier who does NAT for all their customers, and that's still called "net access".
20:35:20 <b_jonas> sure, but you don't need net access
20:35:31 <b_jonas> you could just directly type an uuencoded file through the serial console
20:35:52 <b_jonas> but you'd be limited in bandwidth seriously
20:36:18 <fizzie> It's a matter of principle.
20:36:22 <b_jonas> if you wanted to transmit large files, it would be easier to convince me to give you some kind of direct access outside of irc, or run the machine yourself, or something
20:37:56 <fizzie> fungot: Do you consider yourself to have net access?
20:37:56 <fungot> fizzie: yes, pilots on board...there were 136 people on board. the first modern warfare(which i think his face. well, atleast in tucson, arizona. during the cold war.
20:38:54 <b_jonas> hmm, now I have an urge to show that bot here and get kicked for flood
20:39:48 <boily> b_jonas: your bot couldn't be as floody as mine. let's have a duel!
20:40:01 <b_jonas> boily: ok, on what channel?
20:40:21 <boily> b_jonas: esoteric-blah.
20:40:25 <b_jonas> boily: #buubot ? that channel likes floody bots
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20:46:58 <Slereah> I made a function to display a number
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20:55:21 <oerjan> <Slereah> Wrong window <-- in which Slereah accidentally reveals his al-qaeda membership.
20:55:32 <Slereah> Well it was for #generalrelativity
20:55:40 <Slereah> (It's a secret Al Qaeda front)
20:55:41 <int-e> (convert 0 <= al <= 15 to 0123456789ABCDEF ASCII:) cmp al, 10; sbb al, 69h; das
20:55:54 <Slereah> We discuss the word of the Imam Al Bert
21:03:06 <mrhmouse> int-e: yeah, it falls back to a simple hello when it can't mangle the name nicely.. Any ideas for how to mangle "relativity"?
21:03:33 <int-e> I was expecting something like rello-ativity
21:04:20 <mrhmouse> int-e: I could probably have it look for el+
21:05:40 <mrhmouse> or maybe el+[aeiouy]+, and have it output "rellotivity"
21:08:38 <fungot> FireFly: is this funny shit. unless they pull off a level, really, i dont now how too write it in the programation, the crew at the station, then... shit, we saw survivors, later we saw captain covered with blood after the game- the preview?
21:09:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
21:09:18 <ais523> hmm… youtube comments are no more
21:09:24 <ais523> but they live on through fungot
21:09:24 <fungot> ais523: actually, laminarwing, test planes with airline colors are not like im writing a fucking freak.
21:09:43 <fungot> shachaf: get the facts that are part 121 certified by both the game was hysterical.
21:10:11 <FireFly> yeah shachaf get the facts. fungot is 121 certified for realistic youtube comment impressions.
21:10:11 <fungot> FireFly: here's the short haired one from earlier scenes on trailer.
21:13:27 <fizzie> It's kind of fixated on planes in this mode.
21:14:21 <shachaf> fungot: tell me about the astral plane
21:14:21 <fungot> shachaf: don't be discouraged from flying again.
21:15:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:16:41 <mrhmouse> fungot: I've never flown before. What should I expect from it?
21:16:41 <fungot> mrhmouse: no one was aboard this flight had a little over 3,000. granted, any crash is unacceptable but i just don't want to land xd
21:17:09 <fizzie> fungot: You've got to land at some point.
21:17:09 <fungot> fizzie: to any expert, what is the first unmanned, computer didn't ' try to see people killed.
21:17:19 <fizzie> Well, that's comforting.
21:17:36 <fizzie> Any people-killing was apparently purely accidental.
21:17:52 <mrhmouse> fungot didn't _mean_ to kill people. it just didn't want to land.
21:17:52 <fungot> mrhmouse: whats that " these angels" are the old her better when she saw me jizz in my pants
21:18:38 <b_jonas> `perl -e 'print "\u\c*\c5\c3\c4\c`\c!\c.\c/\c4\c(\c%\c2 \u\c0\c%\c2\c,\c`\c(\c!c\c+\c%\c2\cJ"'
21:18:54 <b_jonas> `run perl -e 'print "\u\c*\c5\c3\c4\c`\c!\c.\c/\c4\c(\c%\c2 \u\c0\c%\c2\c,\c`\c(\c!c\c+\c%\c2\cJ"'
21:19:24 <FireFly> "`command blah bluh bleh" runs `command` with the single argument that is the literal string "blah bluh bleh"
21:21:03 <shachaf> `run cat /proc/$PPID/cmdline
21:21:05 <HackEgo> sh.-c.'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'bash' '-c' 'cat /proc/$PPID/cmdline' | cat.
21:21:08 <b_jonas> `perl -eeval for'for$=(2..27){$*=0;$*=($**$=+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr$*}'."\n#ig\\tq\24^-/v\c^l,\23\$%\3\ta2\tk\b\c\)\x18 -- ambrus"
21:21:09 <HackEgo> $* is no longer supported at (eval 1) line 1. \ Just another Perl hacker,
21:22:00 <b_jonas> ah, I have a variant that's warning-free in newer perls
21:22:28 <b_jonas> `perl -eeval for"for\$^(2..27){\$==0;\$==(\$=*\$^+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr\$=}\n#P*h!9= Nn[\c\9\0*.:\eUt\17%j{dY\31 -- ambrus"
21:22:30 <shachaf> It's OK, you don't have to type it.
21:23:29 <b_jonas> this bot msgs the answer without any prefix. I like that, that's great for creating a loop between two bots.
21:24:01 <FireFly> I think it inserts ^O before the reply, precisely to protect against that (and unwanted CTCPs)
21:24:30 <b_jonas> I didn't know about that trick
21:24:39 -!- shachaf has left.
21:24:51 <b_jonas> I mean, the normal method is to just have bots send NOTICEs instead of msgs, but few people do that
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21:25:50 <fizzie> It's a non-breaking space it inserts, isn't it?
21:26:02 <Slereah> The assembler is bitching if I try mov es, ip
21:26:16 <Slereah> Is it not the same size, or is it because it's the instruction pointer?
21:26:26 <b_jonas> Slereah: there's no such instruction
21:26:29 <elliott> you write to the instruction pointer with jmp
21:26:37 <b_jonas> whoa, it doesn't actually insert anything!
21:26:43 <Slereah> Yes, but I'm not writing in IP
21:26:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's only inserted when the reply starts with something that could plausibly be a command prefix.
21:27:00 <b_jonas> Slereah: still, there's just no such instruction as that on x86
21:27:14 <Slereah> How do I keep track of where I left off then?
21:27:26 <b_jonas> Slereah: with the call insn
21:27:28 <HackEgo> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F]
21:27:37 <fizzie> U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE, apparently.
21:28:01 <evalj> HackEgo: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
21:28:32 <Slereah> "Pushes Instruction Pointer (and Code Segment for far calls) onto stack and loads Instruction Pointer with the address of proc-name."
21:29:28 <b_jonas> anyway, yes, it looks like it inserts some non-ascii stuff before some prefixes
21:29:40 <b_jonas> and evalj doesn't like that before its short prefix
21:30:28 <fizzie> Everything outside of [a-z] and maybe digits, from what I recall.
21:30:31 <Slereah> To jump back, can I pop the stack into es and do jmp es?
21:30:43 <fizzie> Slereah: No, but you can "ret".
21:31:14 <fizzie> You could also pop the stack to some general-purpose register (not a segment one) and jmp to it, but that sounds very silly.
21:31:24 <b_jonas> Slereah: this is what arch exactly? x86_16, x86_32, or x86_64?
21:31:30 <Slereah> I was expecting assembly to be a bit more arcane
21:31:39 <Slereah> Currently using DOSBOX for it
21:32:14 <b_jonas> if you want to treat ip as a general register, get an ARM or MIPS or whichever arch that is that does that
21:32:30 <b_jonas> it's a bad idea for an architecture to do that
21:32:40 <fizzie> ARM no longer does that in AArch64, either.
21:32:51 <fizzie> (No more combined multi-register pop and return.)
21:33:08 <b_jonas> does it have jump instructions then?
21:33:22 <FireFly> Are there any "real" architectures that treat pc as a general register?
21:33:30 <FireFly> (and encode jumps as arithmetic on pc)
21:33:53 <Slereah> I think it would be pretty neat to be able to write some self modifying code
21:34:01 <Fiora> does 32-bit ARM do that?
21:34:10 <Fiora> I remember seeing code with pc in it and stuff
21:34:29 <fizzie> Fiora: I think that's arguable. I mean, it does have separate jump instructions too.
21:34:31 <Bike> i thought the notion of a program counter was oudatd.
21:34:52 <Fiora> huh. so like, redundant instructions? is there a reason for that?
21:34:53 <fizzie> Fiora: (With bigger relative offsets than just usual immediate arithmetic.)
21:34:56 <b_jonas> well, x86_64 can read ip, though not as a general register,
21:35:09 <b_jonas> they added that so you can write position independent code
21:35:17 <b_jonas> but it can't just write ip of course
21:35:48 <fizzie> Fiora: Also conditional jumps even in modes that don't have condition bits for all instructions.
21:35:50 <b_jonas> however, x86_32 didn't have that
21:36:07 <b_jonas> Slereah: so what? you can still write self-modifying code with jumps
21:36:40 <b_jonas> Slereah: if you want to do so, I recommend overwriting the instruction byte of a conditional jump with the opposite condition
21:36:49 <b_jonas> thus dynamically negating a jump
21:37:07 <b_jonas> recommend as in #esoteric obviously
21:38:19 <fizzie> Fiora: What it didn't have (I think) is a separate RET instruction, but I guess that's pretty common on architectures with a link register.
21:40:32 <b_jonas> Bike: you'd get that impression from Knuth, yeah
21:40:51 <b_jonas> but a program counter is really just a different name for an instruction pointer, or for the * register as Knuth calls it
21:40:57 <b_jonas> well, he doesn't call it a register
21:41:15 <Bike> i meant because of ooe and stuff.
21:41:23 <Bike> been a while since i've read taocp1, unfortunately
21:41:27 <Bike> out of order execution
21:41:47 <boily> ooe: Out Of Echaracter.
21:41:59 <Bike> So things aren't as simple as one instruction then another instruction.
21:42:03 <b_jonas> the semantics is still given by serial execution with an ip, except maybe with some modification
21:42:21 <b_jonas> it's not like the cpu can just randomly pick instructions from anywhere and execute them
21:42:42 <b_jonas> I mean, some obfuscations play with that, but real cpus don't
21:44:25 <b_jonas> `perl sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r
21:44:26 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r": No such file or directory
21:44:35 <b_jonas> `perl -esub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r
21:44:54 <boily> what the fungot is that linënoise...
21:44:54 <fungot> boily: and if there were many passengers.
21:45:03 <b_jonas> boily: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
21:45:03 <boily> fungot: then it'd have crashed.
21:45:04 <fungot> boily: the flying club which staged the show
21:45:06 <Bike> many, many passengers. (fungöt)
21:45:24 <boily> b_jonas: ain't clicking on that. I swore off perlmonks-related drugs years ago.
21:45:44 <b_jonas> boily: evaluates a polynomial over GF(128)
21:45:59 <b_jonas> that long double-quoted string encodes the polynomial
21:46:38 <boily> /flee-in-abject-terror
21:48:14 <b_jonas> ages ago I wrote a perl obfu that evaluates a polynomial over GF(127), which is of course much easier. then martin reinvented that idea and wrote his version.
21:48:45 <b_jonas> then I said that his obfu was better than mine, but would be even more amazing if it did computations over GF(128).
21:49:32 <b_jonas> he took that seriously and wrote such an obfu, which works quite differently from mine: it computes a table of powers of some primitive root and uses that as a log table to do the multiplications.
21:49:51 <b_jonas> I had to one-up his obfu and so wrote this GF(128) obfu which is better
21:50:06 <b_jonas> it looks nicer if I don't have to paste it in one irc line of course
21:50:51 <boily> “looks better”. yeah right. it still disturbs me.
21:50:55 <b_jonas> the nice part is that the obfu is branded in that you can't just strip the "ambrus" part from it and replace it with your name without understanding the obfu
21:51:09 <Slereah> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ucw6tpJa
21:51:15 <Slereah> Goddamn this took forever to write
21:51:16 <b_jonas> because that's part of the polynomial
21:51:52 <boily> if it weren't, I'd only have felt dejected.
21:52:31 <boily> Slereah: oh, shiny!
21:52:42 <Slereah> Now to write a loop to print all the numbers!
21:53:47 <Slereah> I'd better rewrite the cx stuff into dx
21:53:54 <b_jonas> Slereah: modify it to write to stdout and you can try it with that dos machine hooked up to irc that I just showed on #esoteric-blah
21:54:09 <b_jonas> Slereah: it even has an assembler installed I think
21:54:24 <Slereah> Isn't that a lot to put in IRC
21:54:48 <b_jonas> strip the comments and I guess it fits in a couple of irc lines
21:55:07 <b_jonas> plus, that's why it's -blah channel, we can flood there
21:56:37 <Slereah> "The "label" operand must be within -128 or 127 bytes of the instruction following the loop instruction."
21:56:58 <Slereah> Well fortunately the code is small enough
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21:57:51 <int-e> you can always do things like loop foo -> loop x; jmp y; x: jmp foo; y: ... though you're probably better off with dec cx; jnz foo.
21:58:11 <b_jonas> Slereah: really, modify it to call dos function 40h and it should work in termbot
21:58:11 <int-e> (but loop preserves flags, so that's not always an option)
21:58:36 <b_jonas> int-e: why bother? on a 286 (or is it 386) onward you can just use the long form conditionals
21:58:48 <int-e> b_jonas: not with 'loop'.
21:59:11 <int-e> b_jonas: see also the part after the ellipsis :)
21:59:34 <b_jonas> anyway, this code is so short it won't even come up
22:00:35 <Slereah> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/loop.jpg
22:00:45 <Slereah> I guess "line feed" doesn't mean the same thing here
22:01:35 <b_jonas> Slereah: show us the source when it's ok so we can try it in evalbot!
22:01:44 <int-e> you need CR/LF (ASCII 13, 10)
22:02:08 <int-e> actually, old line printers did the same
22:02:27 <Slereah> Yes, but this is not a printer
22:02:33 <int-e> it's even in the name, LF is a line feed, cr is a carriage return
22:02:42 <int-e> it's a terminal, which emulates a printer :)
22:02:46 <Slereah> Old typewriter terminology
22:03:14 <b_jonas> I think you can skip the cr in the irc bot wrapper
22:04:15 <int-e> Portable DOS code.
22:04:25 <Slereah> http://pastebin.com/hp1akjtk
22:04:33 <b_jonas> int-e: come on, windows will support it for years after dos
22:05:09 <b_jonas> Slereah: great, but like I said, modify it to use dos function 40h so it writes to stdout, or else the output won't go through irc
22:05:39 <b_jonas> wait, let me check the manual
22:06:42 <int-e> http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/rbinter/id/69/25.html is probably more convenient (and should still go through the file handle properly)
22:07:12 <b_jonas> int 21h because it's a dos function, ah=40h, bx=1 is the file handle, cx= the number of bytes, ds:dx=address of bytes
22:07:24 <b_jonas> like the write call for unix
22:07:53 <int-e> honestly, use mov ah,06h; mov dl,char; int 21h
22:08:08 <Slereah> Well I need to keep track of dx
22:08:12 <int-e> saves you setting up a memory buffer
22:08:14 <Slereah> It contains important things
22:08:26 <int-e> and you can modify dx inbetween
22:08:27 <b_jonas> int-e: does that go to stdout? I see
22:09:43 <b_jonas> I guess I'm too used to unix to think of any way other than write(2) to write stuff
22:10:35 <b_jonas> Slereah: let's hope. and the same for the crlf too I guess
22:12:20 <b_jonas> you could use the bios serial port service too, but then you'd get a program that works only on the serial console, which would suck. let's use dos to hide this abstraction.
22:13:30 <Slereah> Is assembler sensitive to linefeeds?
22:13:36 <Slereah> Or can I put it in a big line
22:14:09 <fizzie> Some of them have a command-separating character that lets you put multiple things on a line. (Some of them don't.)
22:14:35 <Slereah> http://pastebin.com/81tMfjaC < it is this anyway, if you want the 21h version
22:18:47 <b_jonas> but you can put multiple lines in an irc line
22:18:57 <b_jonas> I'll show in a few minutes
22:20:24 <Slereah> So is jmp 0xabcd equivalent to mov ip, 0xabcd
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22:25:43 <Bike> have you ever been able to mov into ip
22:25:55 <Slereah> Also if you can't get the value of IP, how does the processor recall the value where it left when using CALL?
22:26:20 <Bike> the processor can do things you can't, so to speak
22:26:45 <Slereah> Are things like CALL actual instructions?
22:26:51 <Slereah> I thought it was assembler shortcuts
22:27:07 <Bike> it might be on some other architecture
22:27:20 <ais523> Slereah: often it's a shortcut for a range of CALL instructions
22:27:26 <ais523> like, CALL NEAR and CALL FAR, or whatever
22:27:55 <Slereah> It pushes the IP on the stack
22:28:03 <Slereah> So I guess you can get the IP
22:28:25 <int-e> on x86, call is an actual instruction. you can read the IP using something like call next; next: pop ax (this can be useful because 'call' uses relative addressing. stuff like that is actually used in x86 dynamically linked libraries)
22:28:27 <fizzie> "call next; next: pop bx" is the conventional "trick", yes.
22:29:12 <fizzie> ais523: CALL ABSOLUTE(VARPTR(a%(0)))
22:29:45 <int-e> Even for x86, I should've written "near call" there :)
22:30:12 <ais523> Slereah: I've used a system where the stack was not in normal memory, and could only be manipulated via call and return instructions
22:30:20 <ais523> also it was only 8 entries
22:31:02 <fizzie> If you're writing regular, non-position-independent code, you can typically "read the IP" (so to say) by using a special symbol -- often $ or . -- that the assembler replaces with the address of the current instruction, incidentally.
22:33:01 <ais523> that's a really really weird reaction
22:33:05 <ais523> to lambdabot randomly spouting stuff
22:33:12 <ais523> it's not even my fault :-(
22:33:22 <ais523> that's not my fault either
22:33:32 <ais523> besides, the IP was stored in regular memory
22:33:34 <int-e> it's my fault, though I'd like to put the blame on chrisdone (on #haskell)
22:33:45 <ais523> you could assign to it to do a computed goto if you wanted to
22:34:48 <ais523> seriously, though, I don't like strong maledictions like that when I haven't done anything wrong
22:34:52 <ais523> (or even when I have, really)
22:35:05 <ais523> having used a system with a weird stack is not really something to be damned over
22:35:46 <Slereah> What thing to try out next
22:36:18 <ais523> Slereah: seriously, though
22:36:35 <Bike> literally can't figure out how to negate a bus
22:36:44 <ais523> Slereah: damning me over using a weird CPU architecture
22:36:45 <Bike> pretty sure i'm basically idiot satan
22:36:54 <Slereah> Well it was more of a joke
22:36:55 <Bike> Slereah: ais has this thing where he reacts to "damn".
22:37:02 <Slereah> I don't really damn people in seriousness
22:37:08 <Slereah> Unless be they damn dirty apes
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22:39:02 <Slereah> I wonder if there's a shorter way to display a byte
22:39:15 <Slereah> Without resorting to interrupts or such
22:41:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I don't mind people saying that because it doesn't really make much sense when interpreted literally
22:41:28 <ais523> thus, it's just an entirely generic insult with no substance
22:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> and let's not pretend you have any reason for doing it beyond amusing yourself
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22:42:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well I care about language not eroding
22:42:30 <ais523> if people keep on using words with meanings entirely different from their actual meanings
22:42:36 <ais523> eventually communication will become impossible
22:42:41 * Bike points and laughs at the prescriptivist
22:42:48 <elliott> that's called the language evolution that has been happening for thousands of years
22:42:51 <Slereah> Languages don't erode when they're living
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22:43:02 <Bike> i'm seriously so bad at verilog though.
22:43:03 <ais523> Bike: I formed the possessive of someone's name, that ended with s, via adding just an apostrophe today
22:43:05 <Bike> i'm the one eroding, here.
22:43:07 <elliott> miraculously, communication still appears to be possible, despite the frightening lack of prescriptivists thousands of years ago
22:43:09 <Slereah> If you want to see a language erode go to some village in bumfuck siberia where it's spoken by 3 people
22:43:18 <ais523> and concluded that it was probably correct nowadays, but I felt bad about it
22:43:26 <Bike> stop worrying about stupid shit
22:43:47 <ais523> "Reynolds's" is not something anyone would say nowadays, even though they probably would when I was younger
22:44:13 <Bike> elliott: uh i have no actual evidence that you're not actually speaking french and i just don't know it??
22:44:25 <Slereah> ais523, modern language, even when correct, is very much incorrect when compared to old english!
22:45:01 <ais523> Slereah: there's someone from another channel who asks me for help with English from time to time
22:45:16 <ais523> it's depressing that English is so complex and inconsistent, it makes it quite hard to work out what is right
22:45:24 <Slereah> Did you know that "pea" is terribly wrong
22:45:27 <Bike> what does it mean to be "right".
22:45:30 <Slereah> If you know where it comes from
22:45:41 <Bike> What is the definition. Where does English come from.
22:45:42 <b_jonas> Slereah's program works in termbot!
22:45:44 <Bike> the answer is "what people use"
22:45:59 <ais523> btw, the nose in smiley thing is just me being pointlessly prescriptivist for no reason ;-)
22:46:10 <Slereah> Pea is from the latin "pisum'
22:46:11 <Bike> no you're still annoying
22:46:19 <Bike> don't do the "just kidding" thing
22:46:23 <Slereah> Which was rendered as "pease" in old english
22:46:36 <Slereah> People thought it was a plural
22:46:42 <Slereah> And decided that the singular was "pea"
22:46:46 <ais523> counting down from 255 at IRC speed seems like a fitting use of #esoteric-blah
22:47:06 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, especially in assembly
22:47:14 <b_jonas> because it would be much easier if we wrote it in c or pascal
22:47:20 <ais523> b_jonas: what are you using to convert the number to decimal?
22:47:22 <Bike> in other news i just noticed that a multiplier is also a shifter.
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22:47:37 <Bike> and i can see an engineer's ass crack.
22:47:43 <Bike> not regular crack, unfortunately.
22:47:47 <Slereah> ais523 : first digit is n/100
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22:47:59 <ais523> ah right, I was wondering whether it was done manually
22:48:07 <int-e> Slereah: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/num.nas is what I'd probably write
22:48:39 <Slereah> I will have tto investigate
22:49:24 <Slereah> Wait, what is x XOR x again
22:49:42 <int-e> xor dx,dx is just a byte shorter than mov dx,0
22:49:43 <Bike> clears the register.
22:49:55 <Bike> welcome to x86 i guess
22:50:08 <int-e> probably the same speed
22:50:21 <int-e> but I used to optimize for size, so ...
22:50:36 <ais523> b_jonas: I wasn just asking generally
22:50:39 <ais523> and I'd already got my answer
22:50:48 <ais523> I was thanking Slereah for the answer
22:50:57 <fizzie> The xor-clear is still on the list of recommended idioms, IIRC.
22:51:07 <b_jonas> ais523: you mean in C or pascal? I wouldn't divide, I'd just call printf or write
22:51:15 <Bike> the compilers i still use xor clearing, anywho
22:51:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I was asking what the #esoteric-blah program did, and I'd already got the answer
22:51:56 <Slereah> According to a friend you can do a shorter version with AAM
22:51:57 <ais523> my statement was explaining that I was happy with the answer
22:52:04 <int-e> sure, reducing code size saves memory bandwidth, code cache pressure, all that; and the CPUs are smart enough not to intruduce any artificial data dependencies in this case ('dx depends on the previous value of dx')
22:52:32 <fizzie> Bike: There was some scenario where it was still faster.
22:52:34 <b_jonas> int-e: actually there's a better reasoning for why using xor dx,dx
22:53:00 <b_jonas> it's that the amd64 architecture optmization manual explicitly says that xor is the best way to clear the register
22:53:14 <b_jonas> you don't have to guess anything about artificial data dependencies or stuff
22:53:15 <fizzie> "Since zero idioms [like XOR REG, REG] are detected by and removed by the renamer, they have no execution latency," says the Intel optimization manual.
22:53:29 <b_jonas> and zeroing an sse register is similar
22:53:56 <fizzie> XOR, SUB, PXOR/VPXOR, PSUBB/W/D/Q, VPSUBB/W/D/Q, XORPS/PD, VXORPS/PD is the full list.
22:54:02 <fizzie> "Use one of these -- when possible."
22:54:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: in that list, does xorps refer to both the sse and mmx insns?
22:55:15 <fizzie> Well, it says XMMREG only, so maybe not MMX.
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22:56:44 <fizzie> Another random tidbit: while "CMP a, 0" and "TEST a, a" produce the same flags, the latter canbe macro-fused more often.
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22:57:16 <ais523> I'm trying to remember what TEST does
22:57:19 <b_jonas> what? there's no way they produce the same flag
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22:57:23 <ais523> is it AND but don't write the result anywhere?
22:57:24 <fizzie> ais523: Non-writing AND.
22:57:25 <b_jonas> ais523: AND but without writing the result
22:57:32 <ais523> whereas CMP is subtraction that doesn't write the result
22:57:36 <Bike> i guess this is what kmc means when he talks about writing compiler assembly being easy.
22:57:42 <fizzie> b_jonas: "a - 0" and "a & a" are the same value.
22:57:57 <fizzie> (So they'll produce the same flags.)
22:57:59 <int-e> IIRC, and CMP a,0 clears the carry flag; test shouldn't. *goes to check memory*
22:58:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but TEST affects the eflags differently I think
22:58:11 <b_jonas> int-e: something like that yes
22:58:32 <fizzie> "The OF and CF flags are set to 0."
22:58:33 <Bike> er, reading compiler assembly being hard, and writing assembly being easy. on x86.
22:58:44 <Slereah> Apparently a better solution for the digits is n/100, and AAM n
22:59:08 <int-e> confused that with inc/dec :)
22:59:30 <b_jonas> yeah, TEST clears CF and AF, and leaves AF undefined
23:00:10 <b_jonas> whereas CMP a,0 would zero CF and AF and OF I Think
23:00:24 <fizzie> Nobody's going to be testing AF.
23:00:33 <b_jonas> but isn't TEST one byte shorter in first place, except maybe for rAX?
23:00:49 <int-e> I had a snippet above that used AF: cmp al, 10; sbb al, 69h; das
23:01:01 <b_jonas> I mean, the CMP needs an immediate
23:01:15 <b_jonas> which is an extra byte unless it uses the special forms for AL or RAX
23:01:16 <int-e> But there's no place for a 'test' in there :)
23:01:49 <int-e> b_jonas: OF would also be 0. Only AF makes a difference.
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23:02:06 <int-e> And indeed that flag is hardly ever important.
23:03:35 <Slereah> But if what register is zero?
23:03:38 <int-e> "jump if zero flag is set"
23:03:40 <fizzie> If the zero flag is set.
23:03:47 <int-e> the flag is set by the test instruction.
23:04:42 <fizzie> (Curiously enough, there is a special instruction for jumping if CX is zero -- JCXZ/JECXZ/JRCXZ.)
23:05:08 <Slereah> "It is set if an arithmetic result is zero, and reset otherwise."
23:07:10 <Slereah> Let's try rewriting a bit my program
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23:20:20 <Bike> my professor used an inconvenient distribution of opcodes and it fills me with rage
23:21:01 <ais523> it's just practice for x86, I think ;-)
23:21:35 <Slereah> Now that I can print numbers
23:21:43 <Slereah> I will try to see what the IP looks like!
23:22:05 <Slereah> Is the IP 8 bits or 16 bits?
23:22:22 <Bike> the only ops are addition, subtraction, increment, and bit parallel shit. you might think it would be convenient to divide one from the other but nooooo
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23:22:30 <int-e> Slereah: 256 bytes of addressable code wouldn't be enough or most purposes :)
23:22:31 <ais523> oh, instruction pointer
23:22:47 <ais523> on the 8086 CS is 16 bits and IP is 16 bits
23:22:54 <ais523> and you need both to work out which instruction is executing
23:23:01 <Slereah> Well, I guess printing the last octet will be enough
23:23:05 <ais523> but the formula is, IIRC, CS*16+IP
23:23:17 <ais523> so there's much less than 16 actual bits of data there
23:23:22 <int-e> but we're writing COM files where initially, CS=DS=ES=SS
23:23:27 <Slereah> Just to make sure that the next instruction is indeed that instruction
23:28:20 <Slereah> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=u694Agh6
23:29:06 <Slereah> In between, there is always 3 instructions
23:30:03 <int-e> 1 byte pop, 3 bytes for each call
23:30:04 <fizzie> "call test" is 3, "call printint" is another 3, and "pop dx" is 1, at a guess.
23:30:15 <fizzie> Your disassembler should print the opcode bytes for you.
23:30:51 <Slereah> And... somethig something?
23:31:05 <fizzie> That's pretty much it.
23:31:18 <fizzie> Though "push the address" is "push the address of the following instruction".
23:31:53 <Slereah> But I guess that the CPU has "push the address of the following instruction" as just one opcode?
23:32:12 <int-e> the whole call thing is one instruction
23:32:28 <int-e> (1 byte opcode + 2 bytes address)
23:32:51 <Slereah> Ah right, an address is 16 bytes
23:32:56 <int-e> where the address is relative, so internally rather than "jump to test" it adds that offset to IP.
23:33:53 <Slereah> It is good to know that I can get IP
23:34:00 <Slereah> Once I am good at assembling
23:34:03 <int-e> It's a CISC architecture. There are amazingly complex instructions with compact encodings.
23:34:08 <Slereah> I can write the Worst Code
23:34:39 <Bike> in assembly? the competition is fierce
23:35:10 <Bike> http://www.cs.utah.edu/~elb/folklore/mel.html
23:35:18 <int-e> writing bad assembly code has been automated :)
23:37:31 <Slereah> "Put *that* in Pascal's pipe and smoke it."
23:37:38 <Slereah> I will have to remember that expression
23:37:42 <int-e> Slereah: which assembler are you using now?
23:38:12 <int-e> nah, I mean to translate the source code
23:38:40 <Bike> wasn't it nasm?
23:39:00 <Slereah> Flat assembler does the linking itself
23:39:15 <fizzie> You don't need to do any linking for a .com file.
23:39:28 <fizzie> NASM's "-f bin" is just fine for making those.
23:39:46 <Slereah> Flat assembler works fine now
23:41:45 <int-e> nasm -f bin is the default here.
23:41:50 <Slereah> My first week of computin' school was all "Don't try to be smart, write maintanable code!"
23:41:55 <ais523> huh, it's a weird feeling when the Story of Mel gets linked again and you see all the reactions from people who haven't seen it before
23:42:01 <fizzie> It's the default everywhere, I was just being explicit.
23:42:08 <int-e> Slereah: in assembler?
23:42:14 <ais523> and Mel-like behaviour is still useful sometimes, but was more useful then
23:42:35 <Bike> hehhhhh, teach just described parameters in verilog modules as "like C #defines"
23:42:41 <Slereah> And I'm afraid I'm not that much into computering unfortunately
23:42:41 <int-e> I agree in general, but it starts by ditching assembler except possibly for very small pieces of low-level code.
23:42:44 <Bike> i think that right there is why i loathe this language
23:43:03 <Slereah> So I did not hear of this Mel fellow
23:43:19 <Slereah> I mostly know physics anecdotes!
23:43:45 <int-e> (The important thing about assembly language is to know when not to use it.)
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23:44:20 <Slereah> Well it is certainly not a good idea to use it
23:46:04 <ais523> BF Joust begs to differ
23:46:13 <ais523> that game would be less fun in other languages, I feel
23:46:21 <ais523> because it's designed around how brainfuck works
23:46:36 <Slereah> (I haven't been there in a while)
23:47:28 <ais523> the most awesome competitive esolang-based game ever
23:47:32 <ais523> (not that there's much competition)
23:47:46 <ais523> it's become something of a running pastime for this channel, now and again
23:47:55 <int-e> !bfjoust rimfall (>)*31
23:47:59 -!- convicinum has joined.
23:48:02 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_rimfall: 0.0
23:48:33 <ais523> int-e: what did you expect?
23:48:37 <ais523> that dies almost as quickly as <
23:48:51 <int-e> ais523: I expected 0.0 :)
23:49:06 <Bike> obviously we need more competitive crap.
23:49:09 <fizzie> What competition is there except FYB?
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23:49:30 <ais523> !bfjoust thirty (>)*29(+)*100(+.)*50000
23:49:32 <Bike> i guess dueling fungepointers has probably been thought of
23:49:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_thirty: 0.0
23:49:40 <ais523> fizzie: there's golf, I guess
23:50:14 <fizzie> Bike: There's vague rumours about "BeGlad" (Befunge Gladiators), which is reportedly built on Befunge-97 of all things.
23:50:29 <ais523> thirty beats almost everything perfectly on tape length 30, except omnipotence (loses) and zeroer (win+draw)
23:51:08 <Slereah> Wouldn't the Rube language be perfect for game-things?
23:51:41 <Bike> dasklickenklacker
23:51:59 <ais523> http://kevan.org/rubicon/ (requires JavaScript)
23:52:08 <ais523> wow, I haven't rubiconned for ages
23:52:23 <Bike> i'm going to continue thinking of the marathon mod and you can't stop me
23:52:26 <fizzie> Robozzle might almost-count.
23:53:10 <fizzie> !bfjoust just_curious (>)*8(>(+)*96(+.)*128)*21
23:53:13 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_just_curious: 5.9
23:53:39 <fizzie> Are there many loopless "serious" BF Joust programs?
23:54:09 <ais523> fizzie: not many; there was a lock+full tape clear that someone else submitted that did decently
23:54:19 <ais523> but you get too much benefit from skipping blank cells
23:54:20 <kmc> Slereah: there are many good reasons to use assembly language...
23:54:47 <kmc> they aren't situations most programmers encounter often, though
23:55:27 <kmc> also even if you're not writing assembly, being able to READ it is incredibly useful
23:56:01 <kmc> for debugging or for seeing how your compiler is optimizing things
23:56:33 <kmc> (compilers are smart so the solution is usually to change the code to help the compiler, not to rewrite it in assembly)
23:59:10 <ais523> kmc: the question "how would you optimize this program?" came up in comp.lang.c
23:59:17 <ais523> I managed to beat both gcc -Os and clang -Os on size with my own asm
23:59:19 <Bike> ok. xilinx tools detect finite state machines during optimization. i think something has gone very wrong here.
00:00:04 <Bike> maybe it's naïve of me to think that analyers shouldn't have to infer things i meant in the original code
00:02:17 <int-e> ais523: I bet -Os is not the primary focus of the gcc developers :)
00:02:48 <ais523> int-e: it should be, it's often the fastest setting due to caching issues
00:03:01 <int-e> (Besides, when do you stop making the code smaller? There's a lot of things one can do when speed is of no importance.)
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00:03:17 <ais523> Bike: finite state machines are a very common design pattern
00:06:02 <Slereah> x86 could use more general registers
00:06:08 -!- Bike_ has joined.
00:06:09 <Slereah> 4 is a bit short to work with well
00:06:29 <int-e> si, di, bp are also available
00:07:03 <Bike_> ais523: of course, but it seems like it should be possible to just tell the tools "this is an FSM" instead of them having to analyze whatever encoding of an FSM you write and infer that that was an FSM before you encoded it
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00:07:10 <Slereah> Aren't they related to the stack and such?
00:07:11 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
00:07:25 <Slereah> Don't I risk bothering the stack if I toy with them
00:07:47 <ais523> Bike: the entire practice of VHDL/Verilog appears to be deciding what you want, then writing it into VHDL/Verilog in such a way that the compiler will infer it back
00:07:49 <Slereah> Also what about ES FS and GS
00:08:06 <ais523> Slereah: SI and DI are not related to the stack, they're used as postincrement operators by some commands
00:08:14 <ais523> and tend not to be efficient unless you use them like pointers
00:08:17 <Bike> ais523: so, is it naive of me to think that that's fucking stupid, or am i missing something?
00:08:33 <ais523> BP is related to the stack but it's mostly useful for debugging
00:08:52 <int-e> bp is used in some programming languages as a "frame pointer", but you don't have to worry about that in your small test programs. DOS doesn't care about bp.
00:08:57 <Bike> like, for god's sake, the actual FPGA is a bunch of LUTs and shit, and aren't there ALUs or adders or something at least
00:08:59 <kmc> an interview question I like is "Explain how inlining could make code faster, or slower, or bigger, or smaller"
00:09:05 <ais523> Bike: I guess it saves the language needing to evolve to adopt whatever basic structures the FPGA manufacturers add to their FPGAs
00:09:13 <ais523> but apart from that I can't see any advantages
00:09:28 <Bike> i think there should be a better way. i'll think about it, and then never do it
00:09:29 <Slereah> I need it to be 4 bits in my program to work
00:09:46 <ais523> Bike: an actual FPGA is mostly LUTs and RAM (and wires), sometimes it'll have a few fast multipliers on or something like that
00:09:53 <kmc> Slereah: yes, one of the big improvements in x86-64 is adding 8 more general purpose regs
00:10:08 <Bike> fpga design seems super interesting really, i honestly like the idea of designing my own
00:10:08 <int-e> Slereah: you mean 8 bits, hopefully?
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00:10:17 <Bike> and putting an HDL on top of it <_>
00:10:24 <ais523> there aren't any 4-bit registers
00:10:37 <ais523> it's the bottom half of CX, which is 16
00:10:53 <Bike> maybe i should look at your charity thingie
00:11:10 <fizzie> CLL and CLH and CHL and CHH should clearly exist.
00:11:18 <Bike> er, was it charity
00:11:23 <int-e> ais523: anyway, I'm not opposed to writing assembly code, but there should be a good reason :)
00:11:41 <Slereah> Well I do have a good reason
00:11:45 <int-e> fizzie: well, they don't :)
00:11:47 <Slereah> Ferrets are nesting in my brain
00:11:50 <Bike> ais523: what's that hdlish thingie you work on.
00:12:13 <ais523> Bike: Verity, http://veritygos.org
00:12:22 <ais523> although the person currently in charge of it does not fill me with confidence
00:12:25 <int-e> (learning how stuff works is among the possible good reasons, btw)
00:12:52 <ais523> I got an email complaining that the compiler was emitting wires with no declarations, which is a reasonable complaint
00:13:14 <ais523> then when I explain that it's generating incorrect code due to an error in the original program that it failed to notice (which is a bug)
00:13:24 <ais523> their solution is to add declarations and then complain it still doesn't work
00:13:40 <Bike> can't help but notice the "language" page is comparing to programming languages, not HDLs
00:14:24 <ais523> Bike: it's pretty high level for an HDL, that's the entire point
00:14:36 <ais523> actually it's a dialect of Algol 60
00:14:45 <ais523> but you can't really say that nowadays without people laughing at you
00:15:18 <Bike> nah, i like algol.
00:15:34 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELLA_(programming_language) it seems the standards for HDLs are not that high.
00:16:01 <Bike> also there are a billion "C-like languages", why has god forsaken me
00:16:11 <Bike> "C++ extended with HDL style threading and communication for task-parallel programming"
00:17:55 <Slereah> Let's try doing an iterative one
00:20:41 <Bike> i just realized. is this what it's like to be sgeo
00:22:41 <Sgeo> What are you referring to? Am I associated with complaining about uncreative languages?
00:22:53 <fizzie> Bike: Next you'll get involved in some virtual world stuff.
00:22:56 <Sgeo> Or am I associated with something else that is similar to what you said?
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00:23:06 <Bike> looking for 'the perfect HDL'
00:23:11 <Bike> fizzie: god forbid.
00:23:38 <Sgeo> Why am I writing smiley faces this is unircsgeolike
00:23:54 <oerjan> maybe your personalities are swapping
00:24:08 <fizzie> Bike: Just you wait, you'll be converting your savings account to Linden-dollars any moment now.
00:25:55 <HackEgo> grep: unmatched parentheses \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9987
00:26:02 <Bike> so VGA controllers are CRT only right
00:26:06 <oerjan> `pastelogs bike> .*:[)]
00:26:18 <Bike> or... vga is i mean
00:26:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16433
00:26:51 <Bike> "For example, the Microsoft Windows splash screen, in versions prior to Windows Vista, appears while the machine is still operating in VGA mode, which is the reason that this screen always appears in reduced resolution and color depth." oh, that's neat.
00:27:30 <oerjan> hm Bike isn't precisely a heavy :) user
00:29:03 <Slereah> Yay I did a square function
00:29:15 <Bike> so this is like 50% haskell, 40% other people, 9% me being nice to newbies, and 1% me being a dick to elliott
00:29:17 <int-e> `pastelogs int-e> .*:[)]
00:29:28 <Bike> percentages are not to scale
00:29:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27098
00:29:44 <Bike> Slereah: say, you don't happen to have The Art of Computer Programming do ya
00:29:55 <Bike> might be interesting to follow along, translating the code from MIX to x86
00:30:05 <Slereah> I'm not even sure I have any computer related book
00:30:37 <Slereah> Hm, let's try a recursion maybe
00:31:28 <oerjan> int-e: now repeat after me, "My name is int-e and I am a :)holic"
00:32:09 <int-e> nice 7 year hiatus.
00:32:40 <int-e> oerjan: that's just a trick to get me to use yet another smiley, isn't it?
00:33:34 <int-e> I won't even grep for semicolon-closing parenthesis, because I'm afraid the result will be even longer.
00:33:36 <Bike> Slereah: are you a university student
00:34:10 <Slereah> I was, and I am once again!
00:35:14 <Bike> well, check the library, then
00:35:32 <oerjan> the :A movement is not starting well
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00:37:20 <oerjan> fizzie: it's like having the word for alcohol containing a phoneme that can only be produced by drinking it
00:37:53 <oerjan> those poor airholics are also in trouble, i fear
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00:40:15 <oerjan> surely that should be Tanellob
00:40:36 <Sgeo> The SCP-2000 contest is open
00:41:11 <oerjan> SCP 2000 is a contest that you cannot escape. hth
00:41:13 <int-e> oerjan:whatdoyousayaboutallthosespaceholics?
00:41:52 <Bike> what, are they already planning on the third scp series?
00:42:47 <oerjan> int-e : i don ' t see any problem
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00:45:42 <Slereah> I guess I need to make one memory space per recursion if I want to do a recursive thing
00:46:08 <Slereah> I will see about that tomorrow
00:46:31 <int-e> a recursive "call" just works
00:46:53 <Slereah> But call doesn't send arguments
00:46:53 <int-e> you may have to save registers with "push" and restore them with "pop" afterwards
00:46:59 <Slereah> So I do need to stack shit
00:47:05 <int-e> call preserves registers
00:47:20 <Slereah> Just like in the doodoo olympics
00:47:22 <int-e> you can use those for arguments, no trouble.
00:47:53 <Slereah> Yeah, but it's a factorial
00:48:08 <Slereah> There has to be a whole bunch of calls!
00:48:22 <fizzie> Why is it always a factorial?
00:48:44 <Slereah> Because the factorial is an old and time tested recursive function!
00:48:55 <Slereah> You can also do Fibonacci, but Fibo needs two conditions
00:48:57 <Bike> there are way better implementations though.
00:49:12 <Bike> many of which involve far more fun things than recursion.
00:49:20 <Bike> imo do tak or ackermann
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00:50:47 <oerjan> i am not sure ackermann with bounded size ints has quite the intended effect.
00:53:41 <int-e> damn. "09:27:05 <int-e> I'll remember that, GregorR-W." -- I completely forgot.
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00:54:02 <Bike> factorial will fail too after, what, 14?
00:55:35 <int-e> Gregor: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/remembering
00:55:48 <int-e> (Oh and that was in july 2005.)
00:55:50 <Bike> 12, on 32 bits
00:56:30 <Bike> for 16 bits it goes up to 8. imo whoopdie fucking do
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00:56:53 <Gregor> A lot has changed since July 2005.
00:57:01 <Gregor> For instance, I no longer specify my read/write status.
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01:03:52 <Sgeo> Gregor: is the Sonivox soundfont even sold anymore?
01:21:19 <Gregor> Sgeo: A quick look would appear to suggest "no"
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05:49:52 <quintopia> anyone know how to write the kronecker delta as a non-piecewise composition of principal branches of elementary functions?
05:50:32 <Bike> er, can you get a non-function out of function composition?
05:52:12 <Bike> oh, i was thinking dirac :V
05:52:30 <zzo38> I am not sure what "principal branches" are, but perhaps 0^((x-y)^2) is a definition?
05:52:45 <Bike> can you just take a hump function and compose it with itself infinitely many times
05:54:17 <zzo38> Bike: I didn't find a Wikipedia article about "hump function"
05:55:17 <Bike> zzo38: a function with a hump at the origin (f(0) = 1) that decays to zero at infinities
05:55:32 <quintopia> shachaf: according to python it is zero
05:55:50 <zzo38> quintopia: I think that is wrong then; 0^0=1 clearly (to me at least).
05:56:06 <zzo38> O, yes, then in Python you need 0**0; what does it make?
05:56:12 <zzo38> Does it make anything?
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05:57:11 <zzo38> Bike: Then with such function unless f(1) = 1 also, then composing infinite numbers of times becomes an unknown response?
05:57:17 <quintopia> i don't understand why 0^0 is 1, since lim_{x->0+} 0^x is 0...
05:57:17 <lambdabot> boily said 9h 36m 19s ago: you are the weirdest.
05:57:22 <Bike> yeah, it would be zero, i don't know what i was thinking.
05:58:17 <zzo38> OK, it is unclear the intended context (if any) of boily's message.
05:58:21 <shachaf> 0^0 is the number of functions from the empty set to itself.
06:00:08 <Bike> i guess i'm thinking of the limit of successively steeper functions, like you do for dirac
06:00:11 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, there is that, and several other reasons too, why zero to power of zero should make one.
06:00:28 <Bike> so there's one function from empty to empty but zero from {empty} to empty?
06:01:05 <Bike> well thank god math makes intuitive sense.
06:01:30 <shachaf> i can't tell if that was meant seriously or the opposite of seriously
06:10:03 <elliott> Bike: a function from {{}} to {} is a set of pairs (x,y) where x is in {{}} and y is in {}, such that for every x in {{}} there is y such that (x,y) is in the function
06:10:15 <Bike> yeah i already got this explained
06:10:30 <elliott> a function from {} to {} is a set of pairs (x,y) where x is in {} and y is in {} (no such pair exists, of course), such that for every x in {} -- and then you're done because vacuous
06:10:52 <elliott> basically with a function from the empty set, you trivially satisfy the requirement of covering all values in your domain.
06:10:55 <Bike> set theory is so tedious
06:11:02 <elliott> from the singleton set, you have to have at least one element of the codomain.
06:11:13 <elliott> it's easier in type theory!!
06:11:43 <Bike> it's even easier in i'm asleep theory
06:12:56 <Bike> what does infinite composition of logarithms give you
06:14:46 <Bike> gallavanting about the plane.
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07:06:52 <zzo38> Bike: I noticed you were writing stuff about FPGA and HDL; if you are able to design your own and make the actual one, then if it is open-source (or at least open-specification enough to know exactly how all the timing, connection, etc works, and the bitstream format) then I would buy it.
07:07:12 <Bike> do you have four thousand friends who would also buy it, though
07:07:32 <kmc> Bike gets down to brass tacks
07:07:50 <zzo38> Perhaps there may be a lot of HDL because a lot of people don't like the existing ones (including me), but I don't think there is the "perfect HDL". I designed HWPL to do the kind of things I think is good idea, but not necessarily everyone in agreement.
07:08:09 <Bike> there aren't that many HDL, really
07:08:26 <zzo38> Bike: No, but you can find a lot of messages on various forums and stuff in internet, it seem like about four thousand might be interested
07:08:43 <zzo38> And then more people would learn and might use it too
07:08:45 <Bike> well i'll keep that in mind for the kickstarter.
07:09:20 <Bike> a few days ago i found out some neuro people i like sell an FPGA board (with just a boring lockedout FPGA but) for brainstuff, which is cool
07:09:26 <Bike> clearly needs more neuromorphism imo
07:10:40 <zzo38> Since there are several advantages to a open-source FPGA (even if the company that makes the FPGA sells no open-source design software for it)
07:11:13 <Bike> i guess i don't know what most people who buy fpgas actually use them for
07:11:27 <Bike> there's a niche in education, and then prototyping?
07:12:09 <kmc> a lot of finished products use them too
07:12:12 <zzo38> I don't really know either, but yes those may be some uses; there are several others too.
07:13:01 <kmc> if you're planning to sell fewer than n thousand units, it's cheaper to ship programmed FPGAs than to design and fab your own chip
07:13:23 <Bike> not sure how much open hardware would help there
07:13:31 <kmc> also then you can field-upgrade the "hardware" which is nice
07:13:32 <kmc> http://nsa.unaligned.org/ is a really cool project repurposing a bunch of HD video transform boards with FPGAs on them
07:13:43 <zzo38> However, with open-source FPGAs, many more uses would be enabled, such as reconfigurable computing, more accurate designs, and if you are making an ASIC it is guaranteed not to be slower than the FPGA.
07:14:28 <Bike> really wish i knew more electrics
07:15:13 <Bike> and yeah, good point about reconfiguring
07:16:04 <Bike> gotta grab information and opportunities in the subfield of electrobrains where i can, i guess
07:19:12 <zzo38> I also don't like various things about Verilog, VHDL, and other HDLs that I also decided to make up a new one; what features are you looking for in a HDL anyways? One thing I like to have is a lot of macros.
07:21:39 <Bike> i'd like good macros, good parametrized modules, and some sort of way to annotate things like FSMs for optimization
07:22:47 <zzo38> How do you want to annotate things like FSMs for optimization? Maybe it might help a bit, if you can specify some examples of how this would work.
07:23:23 <Bike> not sure. i'd like the macros and modules to be involved enough that i could write out a state transition diagram, really
07:24:01 <Bike> i don't see the point in compiling things "down" to gates if the toolset's just going to analyze it as an fsm anyway
07:24:45 <zzo38> Are the macros and parametrized modules in HWPL (my design) good enough for this? If not, I would like to improve it if it help! (HWPL does have the MODELS keyword, which can be used for optimization, but I don't know if this is sufficient for the purpose you are describing.)
07:26:20 <zzo38> I would like an example of what you mean, though, if you can do that.
07:28:28 <Bike> ok, do you know how a serial adder works?
07:29:11 <zzo38> OK, yes I looked up in Wikipedia, and yes I found it is something I am familiar with.
07:30:11 <Bike> it's pretty easily conceptualized as an FSM. you have four states, one for each combination of outputs, and each clock you transition to another state based on the inputs
07:31:00 <zzo38> Ah, OK, I understand.
07:31:20 <Bike> in verilog you could write this as an always block on the clock edge, where the logic is a very tedious case on the state and the inputs
07:32:33 <Bike> and if you write it out the synthesizer is going to compile it into whatever IR and /then/ analyze it to be an FSM
07:36:31 <Sgeo> Dear Microsoft: It's fairly obvious that your process for generating the IE compatibility mode list involves monkeys at typewriters. Please stop. Love, Sgeo.
07:38:55 <zzo38> A serial adder only has one bit of state being the carry flag though, isn't it?
07:47:49 <Bike> you need to keep the sum out stable through the clock
07:50:53 <Bike> but yeah, the carry is the only one you need to worry about between transitions
07:54:35 <Bike> i guess that's a distinction between state of the FSM and state of the circuit.
08:02:15 <shachaf> What explains this behavior: As long as Chrome (ium) is loading any page, even in another tab, it doesn't show title text when hovering the cursor over something.
08:06:07 <kmc> is the hover thingy an OS-level GUI element?
08:06:37 <kmc> maybe it's because there's a single compositor thread in charge of all talking to the OS graphics system, and it's busy doing something else?
08:08:16 <kmc> you should find out whether servo has the same limitation, first you'll have to contribute code to show title text, also to have tabs
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08:26:29 <Bike> oh, i've onwdered about that too
08:27:35 <kmc> I think Chrome actually serializes OpenGL calls and sends them to a single process
08:27:51 <kmc> we will probably have to do something like that eventually, for WebGL
08:28:12 -!- CADD has quit (Quit: leaving).
08:28:17 <kmc> but for now our approach is, separate GL context for each thread/process, sending textures between them using OS-level features for doing so (the same ones compositing WMs use)
08:28:29 <kmc> e.g. sending GLXPixmaps on Linux
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08:53:11 <fizzie> I think that assessment of Chrome doing all GL stuff in a single process is correct, because on my system it used to go all "GPU thread has crashed" and disable hardware acceleration whenever I tried to go to a WebGL page.
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09:38:41 <zzo38> I would think a serial adder in HWPL might be something like: TRIGGER .CLOCK SET {.OUT,.CARRY} TO MUX({.CARRY,.X,.Y},$96,$E8); and something like that may be usable in other hardware programming languages too; would that work?
09:45:13 <zzo38> In fact it looks like a direct implementation of the state machine as well as being directly translatable to FPGA muxes.
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10:31:47 <FreeFull> fizzie: I was never able to get webgl to work properly in chromium
10:32:07 <FreeFull> It tends to just stop working for no reason
10:32:11 <FreeFull> While in Firefox it just works
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10:52:55 <fizzie> FreeFull: It used to work with my old graphics card, then it stopped working when I upgraded hardware, then it again started to work after upgrading the browser. (Though this last is a bit tentative, I haven't used it much.)
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11:01:40 <Slereah> So I be trying to do the factorial recursively
11:01:46 <Slereah> It doesn't seem to stop at 0
11:02:25 <Slereah> The program being http://pastebin.com/e5bNNSf1
11:02:51 <Slereah> The jump isn't well placed
11:09:16 <Slereah> factorial: pop ax, pop ax, dec cx, jcxz zero, mul cl, push ax, call factorial, zero: jmp prog
11:09:26 <Slereah> I should do a version with a jump instead of a call
11:09:35 <Slereah> That will avoid me the double popping
11:15:29 <fizzie> Typically you'd access any parameters on stack with something like mov ax, [sp+2] instead of popping off the return address.
11:16:36 <Slereah> Wouldn't that fill the stack if I don't pop it in this case?
11:17:09 <Fiora> you can adjust sp manually without popping, like 'add esp, 8'
11:17:14 <fizzie> Normally the caller pops the arguments off the stack after the call.
11:17:33 <Slereah> Yeah but because of reasons I had to drop it
11:17:41 <fizzie> Fiora: sp, in this case.
11:18:24 <Slereah> I can do directly jcxz prog
11:18:24 <fizzie> It's not really a function call any more if you never ret.
11:18:46 <Fiora> is there some reason ax gets pushed, and then like, popped right back off?
11:19:10 <Fiora> but isn't pushing and then popping a no-op...?
11:19:29 <Slereah> And I jump to the function
11:20:04 <Slereah> And sends the result to the stack
11:20:37 <fizzie> It's not really a recursive function as written. And the use of stack is indeed unnecessary.
11:20:42 <Slereah> Wait, I don't need it if ax stays the same
11:21:51 <Slereah> I guess it is more of a loop yeah
11:22:44 <fizzie> Also not a function; you can't call it from two places, because it always returns to the same place.
11:23:16 <Slereah> I tried doing it as a function, but
11:23:43 <Slereah> But that didn't seem to work
11:23:53 <Slereah> Like the ret didn't returl to the proper place?
11:24:18 <fizzie> If you popped the return address off, no wonder.
11:24:55 <Slereah> I don't think I did when that was there
11:24:59 <Slereah> Well, let's try redoing it
11:25:12 <fizzie> If you don't mind calling conventions, you can just pass parameters (and return values) in registers, in which case it's very simple.
11:26:16 <fizzie> It might be more generic if you had the proper initialization of al (to 1) inside the function.
11:26:36 <Slereah> al is actually initialized at cl
11:27:03 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that works too, since you decrement before the first multiplication.
11:27:07 <Slereah> I guess I need one more label if I want to do the initialization
11:27:21 <fizzie> You can use a label local to the function for the loop, if you like.
11:27:53 <fizzie> (With syntax depending on assembler, but starting with a period is common.)
11:30:48 <Slereah> What would the recursive version look like?
11:33:41 <Slereah> I guess at each passage in the loop, it would push the stack with the address
11:34:18 <fizzie> In half-pseudo, possibly something like factorial: if ax == 0 { mov ax, 1; ret } else { push ax; sub ax, 1; call factorial; pop cx; multiply ax by cx; ret }
11:35:17 <fizzie> That's the "direct" translation of factorial(a) { return factorial(a-1) * a; }
11:35:45 <fizzie> (With the convention of passing the input argument in ax, and the return value in ax too.)
11:36:02 <fizzie> Er, the latter is missing the termination condition, but anyway.
11:36:23 <Slereah> Let's try something like this
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11:38:05 <fizzie> Well, you decrement cx all the way to 0, and then return from the deepest "call facrec" right into the mul cx.
11:38:27 <Slereah> If it's 0 I need to return cx = 1
11:39:45 <fizzie> All your "mul cx"s will use the same cx value.
11:40:19 <Slereah> Once decremented, cx = 1, ax = 2
11:40:55 <Slereah> Ah yes, it totally forgets the value of 2 on the second call
11:41:09 <fizzie> You can expand the control flow out what it executes: {mov ax, cx; dec cx;}*n, then {mul cx}*n.
11:43:12 <fizzie> You can do the recursive-with-an-accumulator variant -- factorial(x, acc) { if (x == 1) return acc; else return factorial(x-1, acc*x); } -- without using any stack except for the call/ret. (And then convert that to a tail call, after which you've ended back in the original solution.)
11:44:54 <Slereah> What's a good ASM debugger?
11:45:45 <fizzie> debug.com would be in keeping with your DOSBox style, but it might not fit the attribute "good" that well.
11:47:01 <fizzie> There's a gdb stub built in DOSbox, if I remember right, but gdb can be p. iffy for 16-bit code, and I don't have any idea how easy that would be to get going on Windows. Of course the old 16-bit programming environments (Turbo C and such) come with debuggers too.
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12:13:30 <Slereah> I think now is time for food buying, actually
12:20:42 <Phantom_Hoover> when you've downloaded 0.2% of a torrent and you're already uploading twice as fast as you're downloading
12:27:31 <nooodl> hahaha http://i.imgur.com/0vRuu.png
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12:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> also: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=what+is+the+planck+length
12:35:20 <myname> i am missing beardseconds as unit
12:37:23 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: amazing
12:39:07 <fizzie> "Comparison as length: ≈ 0.2 x length of a putative string in M-theory"
12:44:07 <oerjan> i didn't think string theory had fixed length strings
12:48:23 <fizzie> I guess they use strncpy with them then aha ah ha. Haa.
12:50:57 <oerjan> _| || |_ _| || |_ _| || |_
12:50:57 <oerjan> _____ _____ _____ _____ _____|_ .. _|_ .. _|_ .. _|
12:50:57 <oerjan> |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_ _|_ _|_ _| |_||_| |_||_| |_||_|
12:51:55 <oerjan> pasting ascii art doesn't mix well with irssi's line joining.
12:52:35 <nooodl> pasting ascii art rarely mixes well with irc
13:07:04 -!- Slereahphone has joined.
13:14:06 <quintopia> |__| |__| |___\/___| |___\/___| |__| |__| |__|
13:15:30 <FireFly> Oh no, who gave oerjan the really big swatter?
13:43:56 -!- Slereahphone has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi).
13:44:35 <oerjan> i just used a temporary magnification ray.
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13:50:03 <oerjan> <quintopia> i don't understand why 0^0 is 1, since lim_{x->0+} 0^x is 0... <-- switch 0 and x in that... x^y does not have a limit at (0,0) and you can get several values by approaching along different paths.
13:51:38 <oerjan> so limits are useless for choosing a value.
13:56:11 <Slereah> It is set at 1 by convention
13:59:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, well no, it's just that 0^0 doesn't have a single 'nice' extension of the exponential function
14:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> you're going to break useful properties, most importantly continuity, no matter how you define it
14:01:40 <Slereah> yes, hence why it is not defined from the definition of the exponential!
14:01:41 <Phantom_Hoover> it's normally taken to be 1 because that still preserves things like the number of functions from {} to {}
14:02:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, well neither is x^y for x and y not positive integers
14:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> right but originally it was 'x multiplied by itself y times'
14:03:07 <Slereah> Sure, back in the 16th century
14:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> 'well what if y is negative' 'make it reciprocal, that preserves the additivity'
14:04:24 <kmc> 'Charlie Stross @cstross: This morning got email from a “technical sourcer” at Google, wondering if I wanted a job interview. Told ’em to look me up on wikipedia …'
14:04:32 <kmc> nobody is safe
14:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover> 'what if y is fractional' 'well make it a root, that preserves multiplicity'
14:05:15 <Slereah> But what if y is transcendant? :o
14:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> then you set it to the limit, because obviously you want continuity
14:07:02 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: fortunately, by that point, 0^0 is already 1 :-)
14:07:37 <Phantom_Hoover> but it's not, because you really want continuity from R^2 -> R
14:07:53 <int-e> Slereah: then it better be diagonalizable, and we can then apply ^y to each diagonal entry.
14:08:04 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I don't.
14:08:45 <int-e> I'm happy with the state of affairs where that only works for positive x :)
14:08:56 <Slereah> With the exponential definition it is much easier~
14:09:19 <int-e> Slereah: 2^2 = exp(ln(2)*2)? good luck ;-)
14:09:46 <Slereah> ln(1+2) = 1 + x + x² + ...
14:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> p. sure that expansion doesn't actually work for x outside of a certain range
14:10:56 <int-e> Slereah: it's ln(1+x) = x - x^2/2 + x^3/3 - x^4/4 + - ...
14:11:07 <Slereah> I don't remember it off hand
14:11:17 <int-e> Slereah: well I wasn't the one who claimed this was the easy way :-P
14:11:51 <Slereah> I think it basically works for C*
14:12:12 <int-e> but now you're talking about holomorphic functions
14:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> it doesn't work very well for C* because you can't pick a canonical choice of root
14:13:48 <Slereah> x^y is pretty much defined for most things with it
14:14:00 <int-e> and how do you exclude ln(1) = 2pi*i ... if you go via the complex numbers?
14:15:16 <Slereah> So it can only have one image
14:15:42 <int-e> Slereah: from the positive reals to reals, yes. fine. we never argued about x^y for y>0 anyway.
14:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, but the choice of branch cuts you use to obtain that unique image is as arbitrary as 0^0=1
14:16:14 <Slereah> Well you can define it with a parameter, I guess
14:18:12 <int-e> the point is that if you want ln() to be continuous, and ln(1) = 0, then by taking the logarith of ln(e^(ix)) for x=0 to 2pi, you end up with ln(1) = 2pi*i.
14:21:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Use the Riemann surface).
14:25:07 <int-e> (the principal branch of ln() that people usually use is discontinuous for negative reals)
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14:56:08 <kmc> another thing I saw in Akihabara was an adapter which accepts an IEC 60320-C13 (i.e. computer power supply) cable and provides a universal AC outlet (NEMA 5-15 / BS 1363 / Europlug + various grounds)
14:56:30 <kmc> i don't know what the use case for that adapter is, but it's an interesting one
15:05:12 <fizzie> One thing I found in my closet was a cable where the other end was an IEC 60320-C13 female, while the right end was the ungrounded europlug.
15:05:28 <fizzie> I don't know where that came from, and what the grounding pin of the power-supply-connector side is connected to.
15:06:41 <fizzie> (But, I mean, ground, right? Who needs that sort of stuff.)
15:08:35 <kmc> not japan, that's for sure
15:09:16 <kmc> (except for certain large appliances, which have a separate grounding wire that screws to a thingy)
15:17:10 <kmc> whatever, things are made of plastic now, and we have GFCIs, and yolo
15:17:23 <kmc> i don't get why some thinkpad bricks have ground lines and not others
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15:21:19 <kmc> (I think "C13 female" is redundant; the inlet is called C14)
15:21:47 <kmc> (but this is 100% from reading wikipedia just now to sound knowledgable, as is my custom)
15:26:23 <kmc> hell is a torrent stalled at 99.9%
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15:42:57 <Bike> kmc: i was amused to learn that stross used to work for SCO
15:57:45 <kmc> fixed it by turning it off and then on again
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16:29:29 <fizzie> kmc: Since you're thereabouts, how about popping down to Kyoto and checking it out? We was thinking of visiting next summer.
16:31:26 <kmc> i'm flying home tomorrow but I was in Kyoto the other day
16:31:42 <kmc> it has a bunch of temples and shrines and such
16:31:45 <kmc> if you're into that
16:33:03 <kmc> cool castle
16:33:29 <kmc> it's a short train ride from Nara and from Osaka, both of which are also worthwhile
16:34:21 <fizzie> We've visited some kind of Japanese-garden-style of a place pretty much everywhere else we've ever been (when possible), thought it might make sense to go straight to the source, so to speak.
16:35:13 <kmc> my itinerary for this trip was Suwon, Seoul, Osaka, Nara, Kyoto, Hiroshima, Itsukushima aka Miyajima, Tokyo
16:36:33 <kmc> all were fantastic :)
16:36:58 <kmc> in Nara i just kinda showed up at the train station and wandered around, but that doesn't work in Kyoto, the cool stuff is too spread out
16:37:14 <kmc> i should have planned more in advance
16:39:09 <fizzie> We tend to have our trips planned in advance down to the very last detail, though not exactly by my choice. (Admittedly there's a slightly lower risk of "what, I was like right next to this cool thing and didn't even realize", afterwards.)
16:39:15 <kmc> (well, ok, I'm not sure Suwon was "fantastic"; I was mostly there for work although there was half a day's worth of stuff to see at least)
16:39:33 <kmc> yeah when i travel alone i tend to plan just in time
16:39:43 <kmc> look on wikivoyage the night before i go out in some city
16:40:05 <kmc> on this trip I spent a lot of time looking for free wifi because I wanted to talk to my friends because i was lonely :/
16:40:17 <kmc> and there's a small window in which the time zones coöperate
16:41:22 <fizzie> It's... seven hours ahead of Finland, I think.
16:45:02 <kmc> speaking of Finland, http://i.imgur.com/zfsNaUl.jpg
16:45:32 <kmc> that's Finland-themed Japanese fabric softener
16:45:36 <kmc> they had Russia-themed as well
16:46:53 <fizzie> I can see the flag, but nothing else in that picture is exactly screaming "Finnish!" at me.
16:51:07 <kmc> Skip & Hop!
17:00:38 <kmc> this business of coin lockers at train stations &c is fantastically convenient
17:00:54 <kmc> they exist lots of places but mostly not the US or the UK, because terrorism
17:04:21 <kmc> got to sleep now
17:04:24 <kmc> good night!
17:07:25 <b_jonas> they don't exist in the UK? that's crazy
17:07:42 <kmc> i may have wrong information
17:08:07 <kmc> i thought the train stations got rid of coin lockers and trash cans both, thanks to the IRA
17:08:14 <kmc> now you have to get on a train to throw something away
17:09:05 <b_jonas> I know some banks don't have a user-accessible trashcan here
17:09:18 * Bike feels it's convenient that east asia and the UK are both eight hours away from his time zone.
17:09:31 <b_jonas> but there people can just use a nearby trashcan in the street
17:10:18 <b_jonas> but no trashcan in a railway station would be downright stupid, it would just lead to excessive littering
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18:11:05 <mroman_> Are you guys talking about the lovely idea of removing public trash cans in order to prevent littering?
18:11:46 <mroman_> I can't imagine to whom this sounds as a good idea but I'm no psychology genius.
18:11:55 <Slereah> What if you don't have some coins
18:12:10 <Slereah> I'm pretty sure it's illegal to shit in the street
18:12:17 <mroman_> That's kinda the standard in switzerland @pay toilets
18:12:21 <Slereah> IT IS A FLAW IN THE SYSTEM
18:12:51 <Slereah> The Swiss always have money on them though
18:13:16 <mroman_> but that doesn't mean you have the right coin available
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18:13:24 <mroman_> they don't take 10 CHF Bills .
18:13:53 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131123-smoking.png I'm sure there's some good, entirely logical reason why it's like this.
18:14:41 <Slereah> Well what do each character mean in both languages
18:21:55 <nooodl> alternative translations for the chinese include "no smoking"
18:22:11 <Slereah> Maybe it is so delicious because it is forbidden
18:26:15 <Slereah> http://cs.wellesley.edu/~cs342/handouts/more-assembly.pdf
18:26:21 <fizzie> The "rfk86" account at zem.fi just got the following email: "Johnny Clunker was an awkward and shy kid who kept mostly to himself. But when the school day ended he became Johnny B. Fast, a super spy Utilizing super technology so advanced that it seems like magic, Johnny and his friends battle the United Order, a ruthless organization trying to acquire the Super Chip - a computer processor so ...
18:26:27 <fizzie> ... powerful it can virtually hold the world's technology hostage. But when one of his fellow classmates, Nancy Korrins, is also revealed to be a spy kid who was trained by the world's most deadly and advanced agent, Johnny has his hands full trying to figure out if he can trust her to help him capture the Super Chip, or if he has to fight her as his greatest rival."
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18:28:30 <fizzie> fungot: Are you running on a Super Chip?
18:28:31 <fungot> fizzie: great work lonely island afterall. but you dont post shit like that
18:36:08 <Slereah> What does the instruction pointer refer to, exactly?
18:36:14 <Slereah> Is it a memory space in the ram?
18:36:26 <Slereah> And if so, how do you deal with big programs on the hard drive
18:36:33 <Slereah> Do you transfer it little by little?
18:37:02 <Slereah> And does that imply restrictions on programs
18:37:32 <fizzie> Quite rarely do you load code on-demand. Program code doesn't tend to be as large as data.
18:37:46 <fizzie> Some DOS programs did use "overlays", including (IIRC) NetHack, though.
18:37:58 <Slereah> Sure, but I'm talking theoretically
18:38:36 <Slereah> Let's say you have a 10 GB program
18:39:15 <Slereah> Does it mean that you could not do jumps from one end to the other
18:39:25 <Slereah> Or at least not without complications
18:39:45 <fizzie> I'm not sure if you want answers related to actual systems or what, if it's supposed to be entirely theoretical.
18:39:49 <int-e> The IP refers to a memory address. That address may be mapped to RAM by the OS, or absent; if it's absent, then the OS gets notified and gets a chance to load the code from disk, for example.
18:40:22 <fizzie> int-e: That doesn't sound like a theoretical answer.
18:40:22 <Slereah> I guess it goes to the RAM directly in the absence of an OS
18:40:33 <fizzie> Anyhow, in x86-32, you can't fit 10 gigabytes in the address space.
18:40:34 <int-e> You really don't have to worry about it unless you write an operating system, or there is no OS to speak of (as was the case under DOS, hence the Overlays that fizzie mentioned.)
18:40:51 <fizzie> (And in x86-16, even less so.)
18:41:02 <int-e> I yet have to see a program with 10 GB of code :)
18:41:04 <fizzie> So indeed a ten-gigabyte program would involve complications.
18:41:18 <Slereah> It would be a pretty sweet program man
18:41:39 <Slereah> You could program the universe
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18:42:21 <int-e> You can still load code at runtime if you absolutely have to. (The necessary technology is present in just-in-time compilers, albeit for a different purpose)
18:42:24 <Taneb> This afternoon I had my first session of D&D
18:42:55 <int-e> did you heal any undead?
18:42:57 <Taneb> We had a wizard/rogue in the party, though
18:43:07 <Taneb> int-e, I had the opportunity, I cannot recall if I did or not
18:43:14 <Slereah> Stallman is a computer cleric
18:44:37 <Slereah> http://lemonodor.com/images/sicp-lecture-wizard-s.jpg
18:44:44 <Slereah> Sussman is a computer wizard, though
18:45:15 <Slereah> Who would be the computer barbarian?
18:45:34 <fizzie> Schneier looks like one, I think.
18:45:57 <Slereah> I would talk about computer thief, but that might get controversial!
18:47:51 <Slereah> Knuth is the king of computers, I suppose
19:05:16 <Taneb> First output from a markov-chain thingy I'm making: "Just the place for a season of woe- But the Snark, with a Snark."
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19:31:19 <Taneb> I need to figure out a way to make it parse punctuation as separate tokens
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19:49:27 <impomatic> Sorry, but McCarthy = king of computers. :-)
19:49:42 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:50:26 <Slereah> Damn that man and his anticommunist policies!
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19:54:36 <Slereah> "if your grave doesnt say "rest in peace" on it you are automatically drafted into the skeleton war"
20:04:45 -!- coppro has changed nick to coppro|nospoiler.
20:08:10 <Jafet> `run python -c 'l = [[0]]*2; l[0][0] = 1; print l'
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20:27:01 <fizzie> kmc: Regarding the use case for your adapter, perhaps the idea was that you're going to have a large piles of those computer power supply cables (with wall-plugs proper to your walls) anyway, so they can sell their universal outlet to a wide audience without having to worry about the "input side".
20:30:15 <quintopia> oerjan: i am aware of the fact x^y has no limit as 0^0. what i don't understand is why CAS implementers picked 1
20:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> because amongst other things x^y is the number of functions from a set of cardinality y to one of cardinality x, and there's 1 function from the empty set to itself
20:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> 0^0=1 also cleanly extends some combinatorial identities, afaik
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21:04:21 <oerjan> quintopia: intuitively, consider the fact that polynomials and power series are among the most important objects in mathematics, and the sum_{i=0}^n a_i x^i formulation only works if x^0 = 1 without exception.
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21:27:06 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, btw, does the axiom of regularity require that it's impossible to do an 'infinite descent' through a set?
21:27:20 <oerjan> yes, that's equivalent.
21:27:52 <oerjan> and was iirc von neumann's original formulation.
21:28:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, it says exactly that in the fourth line of the wp article
21:28:21 <oerjan> which is about where i last read it.
21:28:34 <oerjan> although not the first time, i think.
21:30:55 <zzo38> What is an "infinite descent" through a set?
21:31:30 <oerjan> zzo38: an infinite sequence such that x_0 is in the set and x_{i+1} is an element of x_i.
21:31:45 <oerjan> or well, x_0 might just be the set.
21:32:16 <oerjan> hm or maybe von neumann's original formulation was the thing about ordinal rank.
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21:35:11 <oerjan> hm wikipedia's history section disagrees, maybe.
21:35:11 <zzo38> oerjan: O, that's what it is.
21:35:44 <b_jonas> I've heared of that infinite descent thing but that's so ugly complicated that it shouldn't be an axiom.
21:35:55 <b_jonas> the current formulation fo the axiom of regularity is much better
21:36:07 <b_jonas> and the set ranks should be the theorem
21:36:41 <oerjan> it seems von neumann had a simple formulation.
21:37:07 <oerjan> however, the entire _point_ of the axiom is to rule out the infinite descent stuff.
21:38:00 <b_jonas> the simple formulation still should be the axiom
21:38:08 <b_jonas> it's easier to work from there
21:38:32 <b_jonas> (not that you really need regularity for anything)
21:38:32 <oerjan> i'm saying it shouldn't be given alone since it obscures the purpose.
21:40:43 <elliott> people care about the elegance of ZFC axioms? :/
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21:49:56 <HackEgo> TyPeClAsSy: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
21:50:15 <HackEgo> GIGIMOI: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: <HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE>. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
21:50:50 <HackEgo> gigimoi: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:51:38 <gigimoi> Not 100%, but pretty sure.
21:52:05 <oerjan> we have a regular inflow of spanish people getting here and getting confused. we think it's because the channel name starts with es.
21:52:26 <oerjan> well, sometime regular. it's been a while since the last one.
21:54:22 <oerjan> strictly speaking, not spanish, i think an unusual number are venezuelan.
21:54:54 <oerjan> but suffice to say that i now have a reflex action on newbies saying "hola".
21:55:55 <int-e> oh that's news to me. ""
21:55:55 <int-e> Javascript is required to use IRC.
21:56:28 <oerjan> at least to past quotes properly inside quotes.
21:57:21 <int-e> oerjan: I did place the cursor between "" and then I pasted ... but a newline defeated my perfect plan.
21:58:10 <oerjan> someone is being secretive.
21:58:42 <oerjan> i suspected that, since i have it too and pasting is a regular annoyance.
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22:05:55 <int-e> oerjan: I'm actually wondering why firefox put a newline there, all I did was triple click on the first line of https://webchat.freenode.net/ (without javascript enabled, obviously).
22:06:23 <int-e> But I guess it boils down to stupid software being stupid.
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22:53:11 <quintopia> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/149620/easy-way-to-prove-that-this-algorithm-eventually-terminates solve this thing!
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23:46:38 <shachaf> copumpkin: hi did you ever read that thing
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00:08:14 <kmc> http://imgur.com/gallery/IkUDj
00:10:38 <oerjan> have the youtube commenters migrated to imgur
00:13:33 -!- kmc has set topic: SUNTORY BOSS is the boss of them all since 1992 | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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00:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i see a few places calling the real plane with a point at infinity 'projective' (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve#The_group_law )
00:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, in that article it's the specific point at infinity corresponding to the y axis
00:21:03 <kmc> shachaf: :)
00:21:43 <oerjan> the projective plane has a line at infinity, not just a point.
00:22:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (while we're at it: is the surface at infinity of the 3d projective space a 2-sphere or the projective plane?)
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00:30:16 <oerjan> in homogeneous coordinates, the subspaces at infinity are just the elements that have a fixed coordinate 0, so you cannot normalize it to 1.
00:30:41 <oerjan> but this is the same as the projective space of one lower dimension.
00:32:29 <oerjan> that is, R^3 embeds into the projective space as (x,y,z,1) and points of the form (x,y,z,0) are the infinite remainder.
00:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> it's just the subspace (x,y,z,0) over the same equivalence relation as the normal projective plane
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01:02:14 <gigimoi> Working on my own eso language, currently looks like this: https://github.com/gigimoi/B2D/blob/master/examples/fibonnaci.b2d
01:06:38 <oerjan> hm that would look better if [ and ] swapped meanings in the opposite direction
01:10:01 <Taneb> I though paradigm was pronounced paradiggum
01:11:41 <fizzie> oerjan: And perhaps you'd use ⎴ and ⎵ when going up/down too?
01:12:00 <kmc> it's ok, mispronouncing words because you've only read them is a sign of erudition (pretend i mispronounced the word "erudition" here)
01:14:41 <oerjan> fizzie: i see no point in using those little squares
01:14:58 <zzo38> Yes I have pronounce words wrong too due to only reading them, and so have other people, even Feynman was studying biology but never learned it in the class so he mispronounced everything too, and my father said he also mispronounced everything at first; a lot of people do.
01:18:09 <fizzie> `@ oerjan unidecode ⎴⎵
01:18:11 <HackEgo> oerjan: [U+23B4 TOP SQUARE BRACKET] [U+23B5 BOTTOM SQUARE BRACKET]
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02:28:45 <zzo38> The dancing Imakuni?'s card is much more useful than the ordinary Imakuni?'s card! (The dancing Imakuni?'s card allows you to make your active pokemon card sleeping, confused, paralyzed, or poisoned, according to your choice.)
02:31:21 <Taneb> zzo38, yesterday afternoon I played my first session of D&D
02:32:03 <Taneb> During which in the first encounter my character got transformed into a walking plot device
02:33:58 <Taneb> Which is kind of useful because now the party actually has a reason to keep me alive
02:34:11 <Taneb> (my character is the only nice character in the party)
02:34:47 <zzo38> Taneb: Ah, OK. Well, now you don't have to defend yourself against attacks they make against you, I suppose.
02:35:02 <Taneb> zzo38, I thought it was fun to play a pacifist
02:35:26 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, that is OK if you like to do so!
02:35:38 <Taneb> So far it's been a fun constraint for me at least
02:35:54 <Taneb> I think the rest of the party is a bit annoyed but then again they are all quite combat-oriented
02:36:08 <zzo38> I don't play combat-oriented though either
02:36:50 <Taneb> Also I do not associate a recording of my voice to me at all
02:37:04 <Taneb> Unless either I've just said it or there's a picture of me
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02:38:39 <zzo38> Maybe it is true of some other people too though
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02:38:57 <Taneb> Also I quite like my voice when I don't associate it with me
02:38:59 <zzo38> Do you like my own kind of playing of Dungeons&Dragons game?
02:39:02 <Taneb> But when I do I don't like it
02:39:09 <Taneb> zzo38, can you describe that briefly
02:41:19 <zzo38> Well, I try to affect the situation rather than making direct attacks and so on (although sometimes I will, the other characters in my party are better at combat); I also like to play monster character. There are various other things too I do, such as strange spells, and I always try to conserve all spells and everything rather than use them, if possible
02:41:41 <zzo38> You would have to read it to understand (it is a file on my computer, you can download)
02:42:20 <Taneb> I think it is the DM's first game, though, and I want to make it easy for him
02:42:31 <Taneb> So I'm sticking with his quest
02:42:52 <zzo38> This is my game recording: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
02:43:31 <zzo38> (Whenever I update it, I will post a message starting with "`danddreclist" to this channel.)
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03:59:14 <shachaf> "Please help us improve our service by answering a few questions about your experience: * Take the survey * No, I do not wish to take the survey at this time"
03:59:20 <shachaf> I feel like this is a trap.
04:00:05 <ion> The only winning move is not to play.
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04:05:53 <zzo38> You could possibly ignore the question if you don't like it, I suppose.
04:07:11 <zzo38> Imakuni?'s card is *not* useless!
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04:20:40 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with the infinite redirect in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnstone
04:21:00 <shachaf> oerjan: and in the meanwhile completely ignoring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnstone_(mathematician)
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06:26:05 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskreddit/comments/1rc44v/i_dont_know_why_people_add_a_question_mark_to_a/
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06:46:55 <Bike> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/87zBrsJ.jpg
06:49:37 <Bike> oh hey mispronunciation in the logs
06:49:45 <Bike> today i found out that i've been saying 'array' wrong for presumably years
06:49:46 <shachaf> i live right by crescent park
06:50:14 <shachaf> those billionaires, man. somebody gotta do something
06:52:38 <shachaf> i live on the east palo alto side of the border, though
06:53:05 <Fiora> Bike: is it "uh-ray"?
06:53:24 <Bike> don't think so
06:53:24 <shachaf> which makes me the kind of people they want to keep out :'(
06:53:32 <Bike> i already forgot though
06:53:40 <Bike> not like i use it in conversation much
06:53:51 <Bike> relatedly i explained what an FPGA is to my dad, that was fun
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07:38:05 <ion> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A9aQ7DYCYAAb0fU.jpg
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09:12:58 <myname> 10:05:55 <jj2baile> Sweet, can't used @ as a function name in haskell, but I can use ＠! Thanks.
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10:05:20 <lexande> b_jonas: there are no trashcans in british train stations, except in rare cases in the form of clear plastic bags hanging freely (in the hopes that a bomb inside one would be visible, i guess)
10:05:44 <lexande> and yet there is not much litter because britain
10:06:31 <Taneb> lexande, there are up north
10:06:50 <Taneb> I know Hexham and Newcastle both have bins
10:06:53 <Taneb> Because I've used them
10:07:11 <lexande> also in new york the MTA can't manage to empty all the trash cans fast enough
10:07:18 <Taneb> Can't remember any in York but I've never had to wait in York
10:07:22 <lexande> so they've removed the trashcans from some stations
10:08:11 <lexande> so that people will take their trash outside rather than putting it in an overflowing bin
10:08:37 <lexande> which seems like a parody of government-agency disfunction
10:09:00 <lexande> but then, London once stored bags full of rubbish in giant piles in Leicester Square
10:10:10 <lexande> s/government-agency/organisational/;
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11:09:16 <fizzie> @ask kmc Do people often call you "Kegs"?
11:09:45 <fizzie> (I think I may have asked about that before.)
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11:19:18 <lexande> fizzie: i have spent a lot of time around Keegan and have never ever heard anyone call him Kegs.
11:35:59 <Taneb> fizzie, you made fungot, right?
11:35:59 <fungot> Taneb: this was acctully a computer could land by itself-with no one thinks the black guy, the crew.
11:36:18 <Taneb> Can you give me some tips for markov-chain text generation
11:37:43 <FireFly> I think fungot's trying to say they created themself
11:37:43 <fungot> FireFly: nesun dorma in female roles only, i could show you a stack of proof from a sensationalist american tv-shows are not always right' mode.
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12:09:01 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, I mean, fungot's just a ngram model, generating text from one is borderline trivial.
12:09:01 <fungot> fizzie: you're not exactly gonna be relased....what a shame that it was mostly a maze involving a red line as the tail hit the trees or something?
12:09:29 <oerjan> fungot: how do you feel about fizzie insulting you
12:09:30 <fungot> oerjan: wow like 10 mins ago i saw the poseidon go down quick enough. i think most can remeber their first flight" for " habsheim airbus crash" under search and watch the video above, it was
12:09:41 <Taneb> fizzie, I'm having trouble dealing with punctuation
12:09:53 <oerjan> i think he may not have noticed.
12:10:38 <fizzie> Taneb: I just preprocess that stuff. The tokens in the model for (foo.) look like POPAREN foo PDOT PCPAREN.
12:11:01 <fizzie> Taneb: (The Perl version keeps a stack of paired punctuation to ensure it matches, but that's not in the Funge version.)
12:11:29 <oerjan> yeah stacks are too hard in funge
12:11:58 <fizzie> oerjan: You're free to submit a patch, you know.
12:12:27 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
12:12:31 <fizzie> (Enough of the YouTubes.)
12:27:56 <Slereah> I did some little assembly things with the registers
12:28:03 <Slereah> Now let's try to fuck around with the RAM a bit
12:29:25 <mroman_> What the hell are you doing?
12:40:40 <oerjan> @tell shachaf whoever made the redirect wiped out some stuff. also i don't see how it was infinite.
12:41:21 <oerjan> @tell shachaf you might learn to read wikipedia history diffs hth
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12:57:25 <oerjan> > let x @! y = var $ x++': '++y in "myname" @! "yes, it's true"
12:57:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: parse error on input `:'
12:57:38 <oerjan> > let x @! y = var $ x++": "++y in "myname" @! "yes, it's true"
12:58:47 <oerjan> myndzi: myname: you two have to battle it out in a nick deathmatch.
12:59:17 <oerjan> myname: removing quotes. technically it's some symbol representation thing.
13:00:04 <myname> oerjan: just make your client complete to the right one
13:01:01 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) . map var $ cycle ["myname","myndzi"]
13:01:02 <lambdabot> [myname,myname + myndzi,myname + myndzi + myname,myname + myndzi + myname +...
13:01:31 <oerjan> myname: it doesn't do so until the right one speaks
13:03:58 <oerjan> > fix (var "myname" +)
13:03:59 <lambdabot> myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (mynam...
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14:22:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
14:25:36 <fizzie> Bah. The (DS3) gamepad has stopped working in Windows again, after the 8.1 upgrade.
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18:55:21 <shachaf> oerjan: what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstone_(surname) though
19:00:05 <kmc> fizzie: no, maybe a few people in high school....... why
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19:03:49 <oerjan> FreeFull: expr is like a type restriction of id, to use when the usual Expr functions are so polymorphic that you get error messages like these:
19:03:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
19:05:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
19:05:09 <lambdabot> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (...
19:05:41 <oerjan> @tell FreeFull see logs.
19:07:13 <oerjan> > f (expr . g . expr) x :: Expr
19:07:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:07:35 <oerjan> i guess that might be a problem.
19:09:30 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
19:10:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:10:33 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:10:44 <oerjan> oh wait it's Expr itself which isn't Typeable
19:10:54 <oerjan> @let derive Typeable Expr
19:10:55 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell is not enabled
19:11:17 <oerjan> hm not sure that's even correct syntax
19:11:51 -!- Bike has joined.
19:13:22 <oerjan> oh well i guess it couldn't print "f g x" even if it did.
19:15:23 <b_jonas> > var "f g x" {- it can print anything -}
19:15:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
19:16:10 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
19:17:33 <oerjan> > fix (show . (:[]) . var)
19:17:34 <lambdabot> "[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[...
19:17:54 <FireFly> Oh, you generated a lisp program
19:18:13 <FireFly> Unfortunately it's infinitely deep
19:18:22 <oerjan> > fix (show . flip (,) undefined . var) -- more lispy
19:18:23 <lambdabot> "((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:19:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input `)'
19:19:53 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:20:15 <oerjan> that looks buggy. also i have a feeling i've seen that bug before.
19:20:41 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:20:49 <oerjan> ' is a legal identifier character
19:22:17 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:22:24 <oerjan> as long as we're golfing
19:25:40 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:26:27 <fizzie> Quick, generate lots of ]s or )s or the channel will capsize due to unbalanced parens.
19:26:46 <fungot> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ...too much output!
19:27:13 <evalj> b_jonas: ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))...
19:27:45 <ais523> b_jonas: oerjan's code was Underload, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
19:27:59 <oerjan> did jconn get renamed?
19:28:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's a different instance
19:28:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: we've had four or five different instances of the same bot
19:28:44 <jconn> oerjan: ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))...
19:28:44 <b_jonas> evalj is mine, but I only run it occasionally
19:28:57 <b_jonas> jconn is fftw's instance, he runs it all the time
19:29:00 <ais523> how many bots do we have that can do Underload?
19:29:01 <fungot> ais523: google will find plenty :) iz 3.
19:29:09 <ais523> thutubot can but it's not online atm (nor is it normally)
19:29:13 <ais523> can any of the non-eso bots do it?
19:29:23 <b_jonas> we used to have two or three instances of buubot at some time too
19:29:28 <b_jonas> now I think we only have one active
19:29:30 <oerjan> `interp underload (hi)S
19:30:41 <ais523> also, esobots tend to pick Underload and brainfuck to impl
19:30:44 <ais523> presumably because they're easy
19:31:03 <ais523> although thutubot doesn't do brainfuck because Thutu sucks at arithmetic
19:32:12 <oerjan> if i remembered how dc worked i'd check EgoBot.
19:32:38 <b_jonas> and it uses backtick as the invocation character too, which is funny
19:32:43 <b_jonas> because I chose backtick for termbot
19:33:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstone_(surname) though <-- argh
19:35:01 <HackEgo> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
19:35:47 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131124-reddit.png <- that was new for me. (Not that I diddit much.)
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19:37:12 <HackEgo> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
19:37:29 <fizzie> `run echo '1 2 3 4 5' | dc - <(echo '0ss[q]sq[z1=qrls+ssdx]dxlsp') # easiest way to sum numbers in stdin?
19:37:47 <b_jonas> this underload looks scary
19:38:08 <ais523> b_jonas: it's probably my greatest esolanging accomplishment
19:38:32 <ais523> because it is actually new and different and yet useful
19:39:25 <b_jonas> ais523: can underload be translated to dc by some simple replacements, like replacing parens to square brackets etc?
19:39:43 <b_jonas> or does this stack turned to program not allow that? I don't really understand underload
19:39:50 <ais523> concatenative languages are known to be quite easy to interconvert between
19:39:57 <ais523> although it won't be exactly the same due to the S command
19:40:13 <ais523> the stack->program translation is really vital, though, it's the only way to be able to do control flow
19:40:29 <b_jonas> there's a dc obfu that takes the length of strings that are also used as code
19:40:43 <b_jonas> so if you try to replace parts of code it falls apart because the lengths are wrong
19:41:17 <ais523> now I'm wondering why anyone would ever want to obfuscate dc code
19:41:29 <oerjan> shachaf: made it a disambiguation page instead.
19:41:37 <ais523> anyway, I consider S a design mistake in Underload, but given that I hardly ever work on its successor Underlambda…
19:41:41 <b_jonas> ais523: you're asking that on #esoteric ? you can't be serious
19:42:26 <ais523> b_jonas: I was; it's like asking "why would anyone ever think of writing a standard library for BackFlip"
19:42:34 <oerjan> fizzie: reddit not loading happens all the time.
19:42:42 <b_jonas> mind you, I shouldn't call it a brilliant idea
19:42:46 <ais523> it's the sort of thing that just didn't occur to me that it might be a useful operation, nor even do just for the hell of it
19:43:02 <kmc> fizzie: nice dc, also what?
19:43:04 <b_jonas> given that that perl obfu I showed you yesterday uses exactly this trick: it re-uses its code as data so you can't change its code
19:43:23 <b_jonas> `perl -eeval for'for$=(2..27){$*=0;$*=($**$=+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr$*}'."\n#ig\\tq\24^-/v\c^l,\23\$%\3\ta2\tk\b\c\)\x18 -- ambrus"
19:43:25 <HackEgo> $* is no longer supported at (eval 1) line 1. \ Just another Perl hacker,
19:43:37 <kmc> i've never written code for dc, is it actually usually like '0ss[q]sq[z1=qrls+ssdx]dxlsp' ?
19:43:53 <b_jonas> `perl -eeval for"for\$^(2..27){\$==0;\$==(\$=*\$^+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr\$=}\n#P*h!9= Nn[\c\9\0*.:\eUt\17%j{dY\31 -- ambrus"
19:43:54 <ais523> obfuscating Perl makes sense, both because people have competitions in it, and because you might want to stop people reading your Perl source and yet have the compiler understand it
19:43:56 <ais523> kmc: yeah, it always looks like that
19:44:00 <zzo38> I sometimes use dc.
19:44:11 <b_jonas> I have some dc code somewhere
19:44:26 <ais523> basically because dc was originally intended for arithmetic, which it devotes most of its readability to
19:44:43 <ais523> and everything else gets pushed into a few keywords which are single consonants
19:44:47 <b_jonas> ais523: also it was written back when memory was really expensive
19:44:50 <ais523> and probably vowels too, but nobody uses those
19:44:52 <FireFly> dc looks almost as obfuscated as TECO
19:44:57 <b_jonas> so the original dc had to be implemented in a very tight space
19:45:05 <b_jonas> obviously it's gained a few more primitives since,
19:45:10 <b_jonas> but the basics haven't changed
19:45:13 <kmc> "back when memory was really expensive, and probably vowels too"
19:45:33 <FireFly> kmc: but nobody uses those
19:46:02 <kmc> are there any esolangs with Hangul syntax? actually I asked this before and the answer is "yes" but there should be more because, Hangul owns
19:46:03 <zzo38> Actually I think dc is OK
19:46:26 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx
19:46:27 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:46:37 <fizzie> kmc: It doesn't always look quite like that if you're just using it interactively to do some arithmetic.
19:46:37 <b_jonas> `dc -e1d[prdk+KdZ5\>x]dsxx
19:46:39 <HackEgo> dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: 1 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 1 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 2 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 3 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 5 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 8 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 13 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 21 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 34 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 55 \ '\'
19:46:39 <kmc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Aheui
19:46:54 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765
19:47:22 <HackEgo> dc: ''' (047) unimplemented \ 20 \ dc: ''' (047) unimplemented
19:47:29 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
19:47:40 <Bike> no idea about this bracket stuff
19:47:43 <Bike> or any of the other stuff
19:47:52 <Bike> stuff in general, tbh
19:48:03 <fizzie> Brackets are like Underload parens hth
19:48:27 <zzo38> In fact the TeXnicard programming language is based on dc and Underload (well, one of its embedded programming languages anyways; there is another used for graphics, and another used for booster packs and deck construction, etc)
19:48:30 <ais523> pretty much all concatenative languages have something equivalent to Underload parens, unless you're intentionally trying to make one that doesn't
19:48:32 <fizzie> And x is like Underload ! hth^2
19:48:37 <ais523> (such as dei, which I don't think is on the wiki)
19:49:08 <fizzie> (I don't know how I got that wrong, brain fart.)
19:49:12 <FireFly> brackets are for quotation I suppose?
19:50:46 <ais523> dc has many esolang-like properties
19:51:35 <zzo38> FireFly: Brackets introduce strings, which are used for code blocks too.
19:51:48 <Bike> so "e1d[prdk+KdZ5>x]dsxx" pushes 1,1,"prdk+KdZ5>x" to the stack, puts "prdk+KdZ5>x" in the "x" register, and then pops "prdk+KdZ5>x" from the stack and executes it?
19:51:56 <Bike> er, scratch the initial e
19:52:49 <kmc> waiting at LAX for my flight home to SF
19:53:41 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, that would do
19:53:42 <b_jonas> Bike: some explanation in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=627011
19:53:53 <fizzie> `dc -e[d91aPP93aP[dx]P]dx
19:53:56 <fizzie> `interp underload (:aS(:^)S):^
19:54:19 <Bike> hm... but then p should pop 1 from the stack and print it, leaving the stack as just a 1, so what's r do?
19:54:23 <kmc> maybe i should actually learn the korean language instead of just obsessing over how cool the alphabet is
19:54:34 <fizzie> It's not quite as clean as the Underload version because there's no equivalent of "a".
19:55:23 <b_jonas> Bike: swaps the other 1 with the long string
19:55:42 <Bike> but i thought x popped the string to execute it
19:55:49 <b_jonas> yes, but it got duplicated by d
19:55:59 <Bike> but s popped it
19:56:57 <b_jonas> ais523: this underload is awesome
19:57:25 <Bike> k sets the precision... i thought dc used bignums
19:57:46 <fizzie> I love this bit of the dc man page, regarding P on a number: "Assuming that (UCHAR_MAX+1) is 256 (as it is on most machines with 8-bit bytes), the sequence KSK0k1/_1Ss [ls*]Sxd0>x [256~Ssd0<x]dsxxsx[q]Sq[Lsd0>qaPlxx] dsxxsx0sqLqsxLxLK+k could also accomplish this function."
19:57:48 <zzo38> It does use bignums, although some operations still need the precision
19:57:52 <b_jonas> Bike: here we use the precision as just a register
19:57:54 <fizzie> They're not shy about what it looks like.
19:57:57 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:58:02 <b_jonas> Bike: we don't use any ops that precision changes
19:58:11 <b_jonas> it's just that k is shorter than saving to a register
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19:58:43 <zzo38> Yes, I think I have done that too for golf attempt
19:58:46 <b_jonas> you can see the history here: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=490532
19:58:59 <zzo38> This is dc program implementing the XKCD variation of Deadfish: [p]1:z[d*]2:z[1+]3:z[1-]4:z[0sB]dsAx[lB0>AlB256=A0d?lBz;zxsBclCx]dsCx
19:59:24 <zzo38> Someone else implemented the ordinary Deadfish however that one has some problem dealing with the "s" command properly.
19:59:53 <b_jonas> more variants at http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=626801
19:59:56 <Bike> "f : R -> R is a continuous function with the property that for any fixed real number x, f(nx) -> 0 as n -> \infty. Show that f(x) -> 0 as x -> \infty." i think i'm a failure
20:00:27 <Bike> i can't tell if they mean natural n
20:00:39 <ais523> they must do, otherwise you just choose 1 as your fixed x
20:01:07 <ais523> and it's not an interesting question
20:01:24 <Bike> a blog post linked about it specifies naturals too so there we go
20:01:46 <Bike> i came up with a discontinuous counterexample and that's about it, go me
20:01:52 <ais523> do you want me to give away the solution? I think I've got it
20:02:23 <Bike> well i already have "easy consequence of baire's category theorem" as a solution but i don't really know that theory
20:04:32 <b_jonas> underlang is both awesome and scary
20:04:45 <b_jonas> btw, does anyone happen to have a working running copy of wikiplia?
20:06:25 * oerjan swats b_jonas for misspelling underload -----###
20:07:06 <shachaf> oerjan: might want to deal with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnston
20:08:00 <oerjan> shachaf: um no i didn't change the others so why change that.
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20:08:45 <HackEgo> dc: Could not open file 448378203247P
20:08:47 <oerjan> there isn't a really good article for that peter johnstone, the original was so minimal it got changed to a redirect to the list of governors.
20:09:58 <shachaf> oerjan: well that one is already a combined disambiguation page for johnston and johnstone
20:10:37 <oerjan> can i ban shachaf until he starts doing his wikipedia editing himself
20:10:39 <b_jonas> FireFly: hmm, that's a good idea
20:10:56 <b_jonas> something like the mod 127 polynomial obfu could possibly be translated to dc
20:10:58 <shachaf> oerjan: i need the experts to think of all the edge cases for me
20:11:01 <shachaf> otherwise i might miss something
20:11:03 <b_jonas> I have it in perl and lua so far
20:11:33 <oerjan> shachaf: but you keep giving me extra work because you keep finding new edge cases!
20:11:58 <FireFly> b_jonas: oh, mind showing the lua version?
20:12:27 <FireFly> but yeah, the P command seems like a useful one to (ab)use
20:12:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: you don't need P, you can use a
20:13:05 <FireFly> I haven't gotten that far in the manpage yet
20:13:30 <b_jonas> FireFly: http://dpaste.com/1481708/
20:13:57 <oerjan> shachaf: anyway, i fixed the problem where someone who seeks for the mathematician might end up on a dead end with no way to him, which was the main problem afaiac.
20:14:07 <b_jonas> that one also puts most of the code inside the string used for data, so you can't change the code, but for some silly reason my name is not in that string so you can change that
20:14:59 <shachaf> (that was my original problem)
20:18:55 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe I should try to write such a version of the GF(128) japh too
20:19:09 <b_jonas> one where you can't just change the code that is
20:19:27 <b_jonas> that would be against its purpose
20:19:57 <b_jonas> the point of my GF(128) obfu is to show off how easy it is to do calculations over GF(128) in perl
20:20:09 <b_jonas> so the code should be changeable
20:22:02 <FireFly> Hm, so basically the idea is to treat the bytes in the string as coefficients of a polynomial, and compute that polynomial for x ∈ [2,26] (or however long a string you want to output)
20:22:02 <b_jonas> easy not only in that the code is short, but that it does the computation vectorized working with all the coefficients at the same time
20:22:08 <b_jonas> there's no explicit loops on the coefficients
20:22:52 <FireFly> Btw, you could change that ; in the string to a space for (slightly) more obscure code, I'm pretty sure
20:23:19 <b_jonas> what semicolon in which code?
20:23:27 <FireFly> Or rather, less-expected-to-work code for someone not used to Lua's grammar
20:23:46 <b_jonas> yeah... you can often omit semicolons in lua
20:23:55 <FireFly> Lua doesn't require any particular delimiter between statements
20:24:16 <b_jonas> the semicolon is required only when it would be ambiguous otherwise
20:24:38 <b_jonas> so which semicolon out of the three?
20:25:12 <FireFly> Actually, I think all three
20:25:14 <b_jonas> in the string... which out of two
20:25:23 <FireFly> I don't think any of them cause any ambiguity
20:25:34 <oerjan> ais523: i have a hunch lucasieks may be trying to make the pages fit within his browser width.
20:25:51 <FireFly> for the last one you could even remove it (the string and the identifier are separate tokens anyway)
20:26:29 <b_jonas> the second semicolon is after an end, which makes it less surprising you can omit it (for me as a perler)
20:26:46 <oerjan> i recall previously having a bug where i couldn't scroll properly rightwards when wikitables got too wide, although that seems to have been fixed for me now. maybe he still has that problem.
20:26:59 <b_jonas> the third one uyou could omit but you'd still need the newline or it would be too wide
20:27:01 <ais523> oerjan: I had a hunch that might be it too, but his solutions are really destructive
20:27:07 <ais523> one of them put a newline in the middle of a keyword…
20:27:10 <FireFly> Btw, newlines in Lua has no special meaning either (i.e., newlines == spaces as far as the lexer is concerned)
20:27:20 <oerjan> (as in, my browser for some reason didn't detect that it needed a scrollbar when the reason was a wide wikitable)
20:27:42 <b_jonas> I like that feature in perl and C too where it's mostly true about newlines
20:27:58 <b_jonas> (and some other languages)
20:28:56 <ais523> b_jonas: Algol 60 completely ignores whitespace
20:29:10 <FireFly> What, even for separating tokens?
20:29:11 <b_jonas> ais523: some basics and some fortrans do as well
20:29:14 <ais523> except that it's left undefined what the representation of a keyword is, and some compilers disallow whitespace inside keywords
20:29:14 <zzo38> Yes, I like that feature of how C and so on treats line breaks (except in C++ comments and preprocessor directives)
20:29:32 <b_jonas> in so much that you can't write X OR Y in some basics because X OR is a token
20:29:32 <ais523> all compliant Algol 60 implementations allow whitespace inside variable names, though
20:29:39 <FireFly> So the substring "for" is always treated as a separate token, say, even if it appears in "aforb" or something?
20:29:48 <b_jonas> FireFly: in some basics, yes
20:29:54 <ais523> FireFly: in Algol 60, it depends on the impl
20:30:08 <ais523> the impl I have requires keywords to have no internal spaces but is insensitive to spaces around them
20:30:19 <ais523> if you wand an identifier name aforb, you have to write it as af orb, for instance
20:30:20 <b_jonas> FireFly: mind you, those basics also had 2 characters significant length of variable names, 3 significant of keywords, and small memory
20:30:37 <zzo38> OASYS does the same and it doesn't even have semicolons or whatever to separate statements.
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20:31:40 <ais523> Algol 68 is whitespace-sensitive, I think, but it still allows whitespace inside identifiers
20:32:37 <b_jonas> but that's because algol/fortran was invented in the days of punch cards
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20:40:48 <b_jonas> I only ever made my own esolang once, and wrote only one program in it, and that one program was buggy.
20:41:00 <b_jonas> I know now how I could fix that program, but have lost interest in it.
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20:41:17 <b_jonas> I won't revive that esolang, but might try something with similar design later.
20:46:08 <b_jonas> hmm... I wonder if it's possible to translate http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=989716 (arithmetic in Zeckendorf representation) to sed
20:46:20 <b_jonas> it's all rewrite rules, so it's probably representable in sed
20:46:45 <b_jonas> of course, there's already a famous calculator (using decimal) in sed, so it might not be worth
20:46:50 <ais523> b_jonas: well, Thue is Turing-complete…
20:48:04 <ais523> is it BF-complete, btw?
20:48:24 <b_jonas> but I wonder if zeckendorf addition in particualr can be translated in a short and simple way
20:49:06 <oerjan> ais523: you cannot input an arbitrary string and be sure it doesn't mess up your program.
20:49:33 <oerjan> because it can always be identical to something you are using for internal data
20:49:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: you can almost do it in sed
20:50:08 <b_jonas> maybe you can completely do it
20:50:20 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, that's what I was wondering about
20:50:35 <ais523> perhaps you could do something clever involving the ends of the string, but probably not
20:50:36 <b_jonas> you can save the current buffer, read a string, do some replacements in it to make it safe, then load back the holded string
20:50:39 <oerjan> sed can detect end of string while thue cannot; i think this is the essential difference to some things.
20:52:12 <oerjan> well regexes are much more powerful in other ways too.
20:53:28 <b_jonas> well, sed is also more convenient
20:53:47 <oerjan> ais523: e.g. see the discussion on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Thue#Challenging_Problem
20:53:50 <b_jonas> because it has match wildcards and can copy parts of the matched string to the replacement
20:54:01 <b_jonas> (with the limitation that only the first nine parenthesis can be copied)
20:54:11 <b_jonas> s/parenthesis/parenthesis group/
21:11:09 <FireFly> Hm, I wonder why dc's ? executes the input rather than pushing it to the stack...
21:11:39 <FireFly> the latter seems like it'd be more useful, and executing it is as easy as applying x to it anyway
21:11:44 <ais523> because it's designed for interactive use, not as a programming language
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21:13:28 <FireFly> it foils my code-golfing plans, though
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21:21:10 <b_jonas> FireFly: what did you want to golf?
21:22:17 <FireFly> Oh, nothing in particular. I just thought dc seemed like it'd be neat for golfing
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21:42:17 <elliott> ais523: perhaps a message on [[User talk:Lucasieks]] is warranted
21:42:38 <ais523> elliott: I will if he does that more, I'm too apathetic right now
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21:50:44 <zzo38> Can you play Yomi cards? I have made up three new decks of Yomi cards.
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21:57:07 <Vorpal> Me? I don't even know what that is
21:58:29 <Vorpal> FireFly, I found that even if I don't try to golf in it, it ends up looking like an unreadable golfed program anyway
21:58:57 <FireFly> Vorpal: assuming you don't need to input things that aren't numbers or bracket-encompassed strings?
21:59:07 <FireFly> s/input things/read things from input/
21:59:18 <fizzie> Steam is advertising a pre-purchase option of "Professional Farmer 2014" to me.
21:59:18 <Vorpal> I mostly used it to perform math from shell scripts
21:59:52 <fizzie> "Tractors And Farm Machines Get Your Farm Up And Running The PC simulator "Professional Farmer 2014" takes the player to the countryside and gives hobby farmers full control in the comfort of their home."
22:00:24 <Vorpal> I never understood the craze for farming simulators
22:00:36 <Vorpal> Nor truck simulators either.
22:00:46 <fizzie> I guess this is like the ultra-realistic "flight simulator" end of farming simulators.
22:00:52 <fizzie> Where Farmville and such are at the opposite side.
22:01:16 <fizzie> "Good Ol’ Times DLC: 7 additional, historical Tractor models for Professional Farmer 2014."
22:01:37 <fizzie> Included in the Collector's Edition, of course.
22:02:01 <Vorpal> don't see why you would want to simulate farming
22:02:10 <Bike> big machinery.
22:02:26 <oerjan> now with 15 extra manure options!
22:02:54 <Vorpal> Bike, yes but tractors? Combine harvesters? Really?
22:03:13 <elliott> why would you simulate mining and crafting
22:03:33 <fizzie> oerjan: "Agricultural Simulator 2013"'s "Key Features" include a freely placeable "Dung Tank".
22:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, alas, minecraft is not much of a simulation. It is way to "gameified" for that.
22:03:54 <Vorpal> And that is for the better I would say
22:04:01 <elliott> alas, it is for the better
22:04:53 <Vorpal> I think I just got z-buffer fighting in a 2D program. That was weird.
22:05:05 <Vorpal> Or something like that
22:07:28 <fizzie> I suppose the farm thing makes as much sense as the train thing, which I at least can somewhat understand.
22:08:00 <Vorpal> Flight sims and space sims I can see some point in. Especially space sims.
22:08:05 <elliott> fizzie can only understand train simulations for doing logic in them.
22:08:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that was OpenTTD, which is far from a train sim, again way too "gameified".
22:08:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: How about game development simulators?
22:09:03 * Bike the rural guy stands by and stares sidelong at Vorpal.
22:09:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah I heard of that, Haven't checked it out though. Somewhat of a management game iirc?
22:09:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: So I've understood. I only know of it because of the piracy thing.
22:09:51 <Vorpal> Eh, not really interested in management games, so meh, couldn't care less.
22:10:34 <fizzie> (The pirated version has a tweak that, after some amount of time, people start to pirate all your games and your company will pretty much unavoidably tank, plus a guilt-trip message.)
22:13:11 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jamie_Zawinski&diff=582900523&oldid=prev need a source, stat
22:14:25 <Vorpal> What is the bouncing cow screensaver??
22:14:26 <fizzie> Bike: "man bouncingcow" says "Author: Jamie Zawinski", FWIW.
22:14:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Part of XScreenSaver.
22:14:48 <Vorpal> Ah, don't have that installed
22:14:54 <Vorpal> I just blank the screen instead
22:15:15 <Vorpal> never seen the point of screensavers that don't save the screen by turning it off or blacking it out.
22:16:57 <fizzie> Presumably the point is that they're both pretty to look at, and still functional at avoiding burn-in.
22:18:15 <Vorpal> Hm, I guess screensavers make more sense now again when there is OLED? I never heard of burn in with TN or IPS
22:19:59 <Vorpal> There are so many technologies nowdays... TN, IPS, MVA, PLS, PVA...
22:20:31 <Vorpal> It used to be that the only ones you ever heard about were CRT, TN and maybe IPS.
22:20:44 <oerjan> soon they'll run out of TLAs
22:23:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, Wikipedia already lists AFFS as a screen technology, so they started early on that
22:23:29 <Vorpal> Oh and there is also OLED I guess.
22:25:06 <Vorpal> Hm I don't think each monitor around me has a different technology. Well okay not quite. There are three TN monitors with the laptops included, but apart from that I have one IPS, one AMOLED and one "Super PLS"
22:25:40 <Vorpal> 4 TN with the laptops included. I forgot the old first model ibook in the bookshelf.
22:26:22 <Bike> mrhmouse: why, i live in the lentil capitol of the world
22:27:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman,_Washington
22:27:12 <Bike> there's a fucking festivavl
22:27:42 <Vorpal> Bike, hey that isn't rural. 29799 inhabitants is quite respectable
22:27:50 <Vorpal> That is a small city by Swedish measurements.
22:28:06 <Bike> it's a small city by american measurements, and are you saying small towns aren't 'respectable'!
22:28:32 <Vorpal> I live in a city that has a population of ~20000
22:28:53 <Vorpal> Can't find up-to-date numbers on the web alas
22:28:56 <Bike> anyway it's surrounded by farms and shit, is the point
22:29:08 <Bike> the university has seed storehouses
22:29:13 <Bike> oerjan: capitil
22:29:27 <Vorpal> Bike, yeah I have like 300 m away to the closest field
22:30:35 <oerjan> i used to be that close to a field too, although it was a pretty isolated one
22:30:42 <Bike> look, i ain't gonna argue about my rurality penis.
22:30:55 <mrhmouse> Bike: I respect your rurality penis
22:31:07 <Vorpal> mrhmouse, I commute daily to a city with around 200000 inhabitants
22:31:11 <Bike> thank you, mrhmouse
22:31:44 <mrhmouse> I went to highschool here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excel,_Alabama but I grew up about fifteen miles from there (and it was the closest town)
22:31:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, eh I just live near the edge of the city.
22:32:12 <elliott> Excel, Alabama, twinned with Word, Germany and PowerPoint, Iran
22:32:15 <Vorpal> mrhmouse, did they use MS Office?
22:32:15 <oerjan> i think the spot i'm living in now may have been a field before this year.
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22:32:23 <Bike> did you have busing?
22:32:51 <mrhmouse> No, we did not have buses. Yes, I have heard the Office joke before.
22:33:28 <Bike> vorpal you're not american are you
22:33:54 <Bike> we had busing at my school but for the people up in the hills it took like an hour so that fucking sucked
22:33:56 <Vorpal> Bike, sure you may not have city buses, but there are always inter-city buses going through even the tiniest places...
22:34:05 <mrhmouse> Bike: Did you mean school buses?
22:34:15 <mrhmouse> Vorpal: We didn't have either of those
22:34:42 <Vorpal> Bike, the city I live in is served by a couple of inter-city lines, and it has one city bus line. Which runs like 4 times per day admittedly.
22:34:44 <mrhmouse> Bike: Ah, we did have school buses. I was the last to get off on my route and the first to get on. The bus arrived at 5:30AM and dropped me off at 4:30PM
22:34:45 <Bike> there's public busing in my hometown (not pullman) but it's like an hour walk from my house to the nearest stop, so, fuck
22:34:56 <oerjan> Bike: you lived in the hills? talk about rural
22:35:06 <Vorpal> Bike, the city I work in has maybe 10-20 city bus lines.
22:35:14 <Bike> why, these hills are the weed capitol of the world, probably
22:35:18 <Vorpal> Bike, what about commuter trains?
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22:35:55 <Bike> mrhmouse: for a second i thought you meant the bus ride took eleven hours
22:36:11 <Vorpal> Bike, I have like a 5 minute walk to the train station.
22:36:25 <Vorpal> So I live pretty close to it yes
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22:36:40 <Bike> Vorpal: commuter trains in the US are a joke.
22:37:11 <Bike> the light rail in portland is actually pretty good, but that's a twenty mile drive from here and it doesn't cross state lines because of hilarious politicking.
22:37:22 <Bike> twenty minute*
22:37:35 <lexande> Vorpal: the city of 100kish i was born in had one intercity bus in each direction per day. smaller cities will typically have nothing at all.
22:37:46 <Bike> as for long distance rail, well, lolamtrak
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22:38:05 <Bike> pullman has pretty alright public busing, but that's because it's full of undergrads with no cars.
22:38:28 <fizzie> Bike: Hey, I've used the Portland Light Rail! (Admittedly only for airport to hotel to airport.)
22:38:35 <fizzie> Bike: If that's the "MAX" thing.
22:38:43 <Vorpal> lexande, I work in a city of around 200k. It has around 10-20 city lines. And a whole bunch of intercity lines going all over the county (since it is the hub of the county as it were).
22:39:04 <lexande> even if a bus is passing through on the highway it won't bother getting off for a town of less than like 20k
22:39:13 <Vorpal> Bike, it is bad there too? Lots of delays and issues with winter weather and so on?
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22:39:49 <Bike> is what bad, the light rail?
22:40:03 <lexande> Vorpal: the city of 100k actually had like 8 city bus lines, that ran circuitously once an hour. though there are larger cities in the US with no public transit.
22:40:07 <Bike> if so the answer is "i don't know, i don't use it" but thankfully trainnerds are here to help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAX_Light_Rail
22:40:36 <Vorpal> lexande, the bus line from where I live to where I work is weird. It goes like 5 different routes during different times of the day. All using the same line number. The time table has a crazy number of footnotes to represent this.
22:40:43 <Vorpal> I think it goes to g or k
22:41:22 <lexande> if you're within a few hours of a major city in the US things are better
22:41:29 <Bike> this reminds me, i'm gonna have to take greyhound back to pullman. pray for me.
22:41:55 <lexande> there are buses to a lot of pretty nowhere places in New Jersey because people from there want to get to NYC without having to park in NYC
22:42:05 <Vorpal> lexande, eh what is a major city by your definition? Remember Sweden as a whole has ~9.5 million inhabitants
22:42:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i think that was actually in canada.
22:42:44 <Vorpal> what is a greyhound in this context? Dog sled??? XD
22:43:03 <oerjan> i recall someone pointing out the other day all of norway has fewer inhabitants than birmingham.
22:43:08 <Bike> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean here, this will probably be less boring.
22:43:39 <fizzie> oerjan: All of Norway has fewer inhabitants than Finland.
22:44:05 <lexande> Vorpal: well, Portland OR or Pittsburgh are just about large enough to have this effect, and are comparable in urban area population to Stockholm
22:44:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, Finland has like 7 million right?
22:44:08 <Bike> wow, five million. i think my metro area might have more than that.
22:44:15 <elliott> I guess I have never been on a bus that goes very far
22:44:26 <oerjan> hm that birmingham guy was completely wrong.
22:44:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it's only barely above Norway.
22:44:44 <Bike> the whole SYSTEM is wrong, man
22:44:46 <ais523\unfoog> Birmingham used to have about a million inhabitants, it's probably more now
22:45:08 <Bike> oh, portland metro is under 2.5 million
22:45:21 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, hi! Also interesting name
22:45:27 <nooodl_> "The family of Tim McLean have brought a [[lawsuit]] of [[Canadian dollar|$]]150,000 [...]" that is a good secret wikilink
22:45:35 <fizzie> Bike: "Half a Norway in the subway at the same time?!"
22:46:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: we just passed 5 millions the other ...february, but i'm not sure if it was this year.
22:46:23 <Vorpal> Oh my god. That is way too many Norwegians to comprehend
22:46:23 <Bike> wait. i meant 'metro' like 'metro area', not 'metropolitan train'
22:46:43 <Bike> the taking of norhelm 1-2-3
22:47:29 <lexande> re portland light rail, it works alright but is nothing special
22:47:38 <lexande> it has to poke along in mixed traffic waiting at stoplights downtown
22:47:52 <Vorpal> Light rail? Is that like trams?
22:48:04 <lexande> "light rail" means a tram built after 1960
22:48:34 <Vorpal> Oh according to WP it is not quite the same
22:48:37 <fizzie> Compared to Helsinki's trams, the MAX trains felt a tiny bit more train-ish, but not by very much. At least from a subjective, non-expert viewpoint.
22:48:42 <Vorpal> Trying to figure out what the different is though
22:49:08 <Vorpal> "Conversely, LRVs generally outperform traditional streetcars in terms of capacity and top-end speed, and almost all modern LRVs are capable of multiple-unit operation. Particularly on exclusive rights-of-way, LRVs can provide much higher speeds and passenger volumes than a traditional streetcar.[citation needed] Thus a single-unit streetcar capable of only 70 kilometres per hour (43 mph) operating on a
22:49:08 <Vorpal> shared right of way is not generally considered "light rail".[citation needed] The latest generation of LRVs is considerably larger and faster, typically 29 metres (95 ft) long with a maximum speed of around 105 kilometres per hour (65 mph).[19]"
22:49:43 <lexande> Vorpal: so, if it just runs in the street in mixed traffic with cars it's dubious to call it light rail (portland has a line that does that and they just call it "streetcar")
22:49:45 <Bike> pff, i don't think a max train has ever gone that fast
22:49:50 <Vorpal> LRV being light rail vehicle
22:50:22 <Vorpal> lexande, is that a question? Because I don't know the answer to that question
22:50:32 <lexande> but if it's anything even slightly better than mixed-traffic-in-the-street-like-a-bus-on-rails, it will be called light rail
22:50:44 <fizzie> Incidentally, they're at the moment introducing (test driving) new trams in Helsinki.
22:50:48 <Vorpal> Half of the pictures on this page looks like proper railways to me, and half look like trams
22:50:58 <lexande> for political/marketing reasons, regardless of anybody's attempt to make stricter technical definitions of "light rail"
22:51:46 <lexande> Vorpal: well, the idea of light rail when done optimally is that you run like a proper railway when you can and like a street tram otherwise
22:52:30 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_tram#Future_acquisitions "Two new trams are start test runs in line service in 2013, and --" some train nerd should go update that, they've already started.
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22:53:08 <Bike> in the city max is like buses, but it runs outside the city too, where it's more trainy
22:53:25 <Bike> outside downtown, whatever
22:53:41 <lexande> so for example if you have a disused railway line that doesn't make it to the city centre, you use that and then use street tracks to get it the rest of the way
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22:54:58 <lexande> (Vorpal: what cities are you familiar with? i can probably come up with a european example)
22:55:35 <Vorpal> lexande, Stockholm and Gothenburg
22:55:48 <Vorpal> One has a metro the other has proper trams
22:56:00 <Vorpal> That definitely runs in the street
22:56:05 <Vorpal> Terribly noisy and old
22:56:48 <Vorpal> lexande, god damn, these things still run. No wonder they are so noisy, given the year of that image... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tram_in_Gothenburgh_1963.jpg
22:57:12 <lexande> anyway Portland is mostly like what i described above (except sometimes the middle of a freeway instead of a disused railway)
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22:57:58 <fizzie> There are still some built-in-the-70s trams working in the Helsinki system.
22:58:04 <lexande> on the other hand maybe you have downtown streets that are small and full of traffic, but wide fast streets further out, in which case you build a tunnel downtown but then run in the street further out to save tunnelling costs
22:58:07 <fizzie> And a couple of museum pieces, but those don't count.
22:58:19 <Vorpal> "When Sweden’s switch to right-hand traffic in 1967 made existing unidirectional trams obsolete, Gothenburg was one of only two cities in Sweden to maintain its city-centre tramway, the other such network to survive being the Norrköping tramway."
22:58:23 <Vorpal> Heh, I didn't know that
22:58:32 <Vorpal> Explains why they are so rare here then
22:59:19 <Vorpal> Mostly just buses nowdays. The city buses in the city I work in runs on biogas though.
22:59:31 <fizzie> Apparently they've got six 1962-1964 trams also used as "backup" when necessary.
22:59:41 <Vorpal> I think I read about there being electric buses in Karlskrona or something
23:00:12 <fizzie> And the oldest of the "museum" trams is originally from 1917, though it's been renovated.
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23:00:32 <fizzie> Oh, that one's just a replica. Aw. :/
23:00:58 <fizzie> The 1955 one is a touched-up original, though.
23:01:23 <lexande> hmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_in_Stockholm#Light_rail_and_tram
23:03:09 <Vorpal> lexande, pretty sure that Stockholm has underground metro and buses exclusively in the city center. And that one tram line yes.
23:03:19 <fizzie> The fact that those all end up in "-banan" (banana) always amuses me. I tend to pronounce it like the fruit.
23:03:24 <Vorpal> The metro goes above ground in some outlying regions though
23:03:59 <Vorpal> lexande, but it *never* goes on normal streets. That would be super-dangerous since it uses a third rail system rather than overhead electrification.
23:04:05 <lexande> this thing considers the nockebybanan, lidingöbanan and tvärbanan to be light rail
23:04:18 <fizzie> The (horse) race track nearby here has a "Travbanan ->" sign pointing at it.
23:04:20 <lexande> though only the last seems to have significant street running
23:04:31 <Vorpal> Oh wait, this is different
23:04:48 <lexande> those three are all a ways out from the centre
23:04:53 <fizzie> The Stockholm metro, aka "tunnel banana".
23:05:06 <Vorpal> Never been on tvärbanan
23:05:26 <Vorpal> Guess that is light rail yes
23:06:16 <Vorpal> "Near Liljeholmen the track is shared with freight traffic in a short section, this being the only place in Sweden where freight and electric trains share the same track."
23:06:27 <FireFly> fizzie: swedes sometimes intentionally prononce it as such, too
23:06:45 <FireFly> fizzie: or rather, some of my friends do, at least
23:07:14 <fizzie> There's a longstanding plan to build a "proper" light rail system in Helsinki, but so far they've just managed to paint some buses orange.
23:07:22 <Vorpal> I live a couple of hundred meters from the regular railroad. It is electrified. It has inter city, commuter and freight trains
23:07:30 <Vorpal> So I have no clue what that WP article meant
23:07:41 <Vorpal> maybe it meant "light rail and freight" or something like that
23:08:39 <fizzie> "In the Helsinki region, there are also other plans to expand the network, through a larger project called Jokeri ("The Joker", after the playing card). This planned expansion, if constructed, would be the first real light rail line in Helsinki, and would involve the conversion of the current Jokeri bus line, line 550, into a cross city tramway similar to Stockholm's Tvärbanan." Heh, they're ...
23:08:45 <fizzie> ... referring to that.
23:09:06 <fizzie> (550 is the bus line with the orange buses.)
23:09:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, as long as Batman doesn't get wind of it, that would work fine.
23:10:08 <FireFly> Did you know that roslagsbanan is the only narrow-gauge track in regular use in Sweden?
23:10:40 <lexande> but yeah, "light rail" is a marketing term that gets applied to things ranging from "only slightly less crappy than a mixed traffic streetcar" to "only slightly crappier than a full underground high-capacity metro"
23:11:22 <Vorpal> FireFly, heh, it is DC too, not AC
23:11:50 <Vorpal> "Motorerna är trefas asynkronmotorer som matas med växelström. I varje motorvagn finns en s.k. traktionsomriktare som omvandlar likströmmen i kontaktledningen (1500 V) till växelström för motorerna. Motoreffekten är 400 kW."
23:12:06 <FireFly> Vorpal: hm, where in sweden do you live?
23:12:21 <Vorpal> FireFly, i Örebros omnejd
23:12:27 <FireFly> Or, as boily would say, what are your approximate coördinates?
23:13:48 <Vorpal> FireFly, never liked Stockholm. Way too big. At least it isn't as bad as Gothenburg when driving. Bloody one way streets over there...
23:14:20 <FireFly> Vorpal: I've heard driving in Lund is like a labyrinth due to one-way roads
23:14:30 <fizzie> If I remember our plans right, we're probably going to be passing through Örebro sometime next summer.
23:15:02 <Vorpal> Gothenburg is pretty much a mesh (and mess) of one-way streets, trams, tunnels and highways. Also a lot of hills. A LOT of hills.
23:15:39 <Vorpal> Not much to see really. Pretty boring city
23:15:40 <FireFly> At least Lund is completely flat
23:15:47 <Vorpal> FireFly, so like Örebro then
23:16:23 <Vorpal> I think I live near like the only hill within kilometers. Actually an "ås" whatever that is in English
23:16:51 <Vorpal> So not very high. Maybe a total of 5-10 meters above the rest of the plains here
23:16:59 <fizzie> (I've said this before, but) trams are one of the traditional "gotcha" questions in the Finnish driver's license theory exam, because they have some right-of-way exceptions. (Usually in the form that there's a picture of a scene, a question on right-of-way, and a tram partially hidden behind a bush.)
23:17:05 <lexande> FireFly: do people commonly answer boily like "40.80, -73.94"?
23:17:24 <FireFly> lexande: something like that
23:17:40 <FireFly> lexande: usually accompanied with approximate body weigh, too
23:18:04 <fizzie> lexande: It's all a part of a project to calculate the center of mass of the channel, you see.
23:18:24 <FireFly> It is conjectured to lie in Hexham
23:18:40 <fizzie> "Under Hexham" sounds more likely.
23:19:06 <lexande> i move around a lot though
23:20:31 <fizzie> I fed those numbers in maps.google, and it's like right next to "Best Hair & Nail Salon" -- a shame that's not Real Fast Nora's.
23:21:30 <lexande> maybe i should try to figure out my average position over the past year
23:22:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember any tram stuff in the driving license stuff, but out of pure survival instinct I would probably give any tram right of way
23:23:10 <lexande> i stayed at (37.77, -122.40) for a while
23:23:38 <FireFly> I've worked around that problem by not having a driver license
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23:24:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: That would generally be the correct answer here, too. (Though usually the point is that, given the limited time, you'd look at the otherwise plausible scenario and answer based on that, instead of noticing the semi-hidden tram.)
23:25:00 <FireFly> lexande: Lexande, near Lexington Avenue? seems.. fitting
23:25:14 <fizzie> (Though the "trams have right-of-way no matter what their approach direction" exception doesn't -- as far as I know, anyway -- override explicit right-of-way signage.)
23:26:34 <fizzie> lexande: You stayed inside a "Budget Truck Rental" building for a while? Well, whatever floats your truck, I guess.
23:26:43 <fizzie> (Yes, yes, "approximate".)
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23:27:33 <Vorpal> Also coordinate systems suck.
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23:28:03 <oerjan> fizzie: what happens if you answer all the questions based on the assumption that there might be a tram hidden somewhere you don't see
23:28:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Probably they'll ask you to try again after studying a bit more.
23:29:08 <Vorpal> I looked at code for converting from whatever NMEA gives you (WGS iirc) to various local coordinate systems and so on. What a confusing mess that is.
23:29:10 <oerjan> fizzie: bloody examinators
23:29:17 <fizzie> oerjan: From what I recall, it's mostly multiple-choice stuff, so you don't get to explain your reasoning.
23:29:51 <oerjan> clearly this is a plot to end humanity.
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23:32:25 <lexande> i think the most amusing place i stayed this year was -36.836, 174.751 or so
23:33:17 <quintopia> fizzie: well, i was assuming we were going to project the actual centroid to the nearest point on the sphere
23:34:26 <fizzie> quintopia: There is no sphere. Also, I've completely forgotten what the center of mass was for, really.
23:34:54 <quintopia> fizzie: sure there is. "the surface of the earth as approximated by a sphere" is a definitely a sphere
23:35:32 <lexande> (that some friends had sailed there from san diego)
23:36:25 <lexande> FireFly: what are your approximate coördinates?
23:37:38 <FireFly> You get commas as decimal points because apparently Google Maps felt like localising them
23:38:41 <fizzie> "We could not understand the location 59,204, 17,89" it also doesn't feel like delocalizing.
23:44:04 <Bike> wait, do you use a comma to separate numbers?
23:44:14 <Bike> like, not as the radix
23:44:42 <nooodl_> i'm european and write comma tuples as (3,4; 5,6)
23:44:50 <Bike> yeah, that seems better
23:45:06 <FireFly> Yeah, that's what we use too
23:45:07 <zzo38> I think the SI standard specifies to use spaces to group digits.
23:45:26 <ais523\unfoog> I think I saw somewhere a suggestion to use half-width non-breaking spaces
23:45:42 <FireFly> Or rather, it's a mix between (3,4; 5,6), (3.4, 5.6) or (3,4, 5,6)
23:45:48 <FireFly> usually it's clear what is meant, anyway
23:46:07 <ais523\unfoog> nooodl_: OpenFormula uses ; as the argument separator everywhere in order to avoid localisation problems if commas are part of the numeric syntax
23:46:36 <zzo38> I always use . as the radix point and nothing as digit grouping.
23:46:51 <FireFly> I usually use . as radix point and spaces to group digits
23:47:06 <FireFly> I use , as radix point when writing by hand, though
23:47:33 <fizzie> Using , as a radix point feels weird, though it is also the Finnish way.
23:47:58 <FireFly> Even for doing calculations by hand?
23:48:08 <FireFly> I grew up with using , there, so I guess that's why it's stuck
23:48:26 <fizzie> I guess maybe by hand it's less weird.
23:48:36 <fizzie> Can't say I've been written that many decimal numbers by hand lately.
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23:53:19 <fizzie> UTR #20 recommends U+2009 THIN SPACE between decimal digits and following fractions, "as in 1 ¾".
23:55:12 <Bike> U+200A HAIR'S BREATH SPACE, U+200B SHADOW WIDTH SPACE, U+200C PLANCK SPACE
23:56:00 <fizzie> `run unidecode '⎖' # this also exists, not sure what for
23:56:02 <HackEgo> [U+2396 DECIMAL SEPARATOR KEY SYMBOL]
23:58:20 <Bike> zero width non-joiner, apparently
23:58:35 <Bike> `run cat $(which unicode)
23:58:36 <HackEgo> [U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER]
23:58:37 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ try: \ print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ print u'Unknown character.'
23:58:58 <Bike> oh so i have no idea how it works.
23:59:03 <Bike> `unicode ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER
23:59:23 <ais523\unfoog> <Randall Munroe> In trying to turn off SafeSearch, a setting on a web form, I rendered my system unbootable
00:00:18 <oerjan> it tries very hard to keep you safe
00:03:29 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: basically because it originally didn't work due to running an outdated version of Firefox, the reason he was running an outdated version of Firefox was that he hadn't updated in a really long time, and his sources.list had a mix of Ubuntu and Debian repositories for some reason
00:03:51 <oerjan> "The worst part was, everyone kept saying “oh yeah — there’s a <a href="http://xkcd.com/349/">comic</a> about that; have you read it?"
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00:04:24 <Bike> hoist by his own petard
00:04:28 <ais523\unfoog> the last part was the root cause, I guess; trying to change the SafeSearch setting was just the trigger
00:05:02 <oerjan> hoist by his own mustard
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00:33:46 <fizzie> Bike: unidecode looks at sys.argv so piping to it does not work.
00:33:49 <fizzie> `run unidecode $(/usr/bin/printf '\u200c')
00:33:51 <HackEgo> [U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER]
00:34:13 <Bike> i think i am just unsure of which direction is encoding and which is decoding
00:35:47 <fizzie> Bike: Oh, sorry, it was ais523 who piped to unidecode. (Which really probably should look at stdin if given no arguments.)
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00:59:40 <pikhq> `run printf '\u200c\0' | xargs -0 unidecode
00:59:42 <HackEgo> [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C]
00:59:58 * pikhq shakes fist at moronic printf
01:00:03 <pikhq> `run /usr/bin/printf '\u200c\0' | xargs -0 unidecode
01:00:05 <HackEgo> [U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER]
01:00:35 <pikhq> Also: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/printf.html
01:00:46 <pikhq> Oh, right, no \u there.
01:00:59 <pikhq> Permitted, not required.
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01:07:54 <oerjan> @tell shachaf nice, someone else finished cleaning up the Peter Johnstone mess
01:15:35 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7m 40s ago: nice, someone else finished cleaning up the Peter Johnstone mess
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01:25:04 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_sofa_problem new favorite problem
01:25:07 <Bike> "sofa constant"
01:27:24 <ais523\unfoog> it's a pity you can't get to infinity with some sort of fractal sofa
01:27:32 <ais523\unfoog> although people should actually make sofas that shape
01:27:48 <ais523\unfoog> actually having tried similar problems in real life, three dimensions tend to be involved
01:28:31 <Bike> i dunno how fractals would help, it's still gotta be a rigid body...
01:29:20 <Bike> hm, you know, i think if you had one person on each end you could actually move a sofa like in the gif
01:29:36 <Bike> assuming a perfectly frictionless sofa, which admittedly wouldn't be good for sitting
01:30:16 <Taneb> Bike, it doesn't need to be frictionless on the top
01:30:20 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> assuming a perfectly frictionless sofa, which admittedly wouldn't be good for sitting
01:30:24 <HackEgo> 1137) <Bike> assuming a perfectly frictionless sofa, which admittedly wouldn't be good for sitting
01:30:25 <Bike> oh good point!
01:30:26 <ais523\unfoog> it'd only need to be frictionless round the edges, and low enough friction on the bottom that it would roll
01:30:39 <ais523\unfoog> (the friction on the bottom can be positive just so long as you're strong enough to move it)
01:32:55 <Bike> look for my paper, "New Bounds on a Physically Realistic Deidealization of the Moving Sofa Problem, with Applications to U-HAUL"
01:34:57 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-can-remember-exactly-where-he-was-what-he,34647/?ref=butt
01:41:39 <oerjan> and we heartily thank urbandictionary for their explanation of the term "u-haul".
01:42:39 <Bike> you could have just used wikipedia
01:43:22 <oerjan> i used google and couldn't avoid noticing that hit
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02:04:53 <kmc> deidealization
02:05:50 <Bike> that's me, making shit up since nineteen ninety something
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04:18:05 <ion> “only uploading it to show that the PC Speaker can actually sound good.” http://youtu.be/wyXBESSgakM
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05:12:46 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:42:09 <zzo38> I tried making a text adventure game involving things in my dream, although it can be expanded with things in other people's dream too. For now when it starts you get to pick one of three characters; you and anyone else may provide additional things, and then it can be more than that, and more location, situation, puzzles, too.
06:44:34 <shachaf> zzo38: please make it out of mnoqy's dreams thx
06:45:32 <zzo38> We can try. Although I started such thing I actually only made one room so far and a few properties and the starting simply to test my OASYS clone written in QBASIC. Probably the later one would be rewritten and using collaborative if that would help, too.
06:45:45 <zzo38> But if you have those ideas, please be more specific! It might interest.
07:11:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe you should get a programming bit in an existing mud (multi-player online open-ended text adventure world) and implement your dream there?
07:17:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: I do have that already.
07:18:43 <zzo38> I programmed it in so that you can fight me and stuff too
07:19:36 <zzo38> However the winner is currently decided at random
07:21:12 <fizzie> [[ "Money is important" I think it is, and no wonder that the. For tax increase of consumption tax recently, it has been making noise well. I would not be 8% and 3% increase in April 2014. Action we can take is two main. First, that "give up". This enclosed the belly and can not be helped anymore, Get a salary upgrade Good luck work. ]] -- recent spam through Google translate.
07:21:15 <zzo38> I own 176 objects on ifMUD already (see ifmud.org:4000 my apartment is room 11011)
07:29:41 <zzo38> However I also intend to make single-player Z-machine story files too
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07:34:45 <zzo38> b_jonas: Have you made up such a game too?
07:36:12 <b_jonas> I tried some mud at one point but it seems it's not really my world
07:40:47 <zzo38> Did you see my stuff though?
07:43:13 <zzo38> Did you make any standalones though that don't use internet?
07:43:38 <b_jonas> no, but I'm starting to contribute to a non-mud game these days
07:43:54 <b_jonas> currently mostly just testing and filing bug reports and reading source,
07:44:01 <b_jonas> but should try writing more serious patches these days
07:44:11 <b_jonas> the nethack variant nethack4
07:45:11 <zzo38> I have made up various computer games using QBASIC, and other things
07:48:24 <Bike> http://academictree.org/theology/tree.php?pid=59492
07:50:54 <zzo38> [Unsetting the zoned flag.] Field cleared. You drop leech. You drop pencil. You drop Imakuni?'s Card. You drop moldy scroll. You drop 69105-dimensional mapping tool. You drop Fanucci deck. You drop psychic channel computer. You drop list of people who read this list. You drop strange key. You drop room tester. You drop book. You drop key. You are not carrying that. You are not carrying that.
07:52:23 <zzo38> That is the kind of things it displays to me when I am attacked by another player. (I don't know why it says "You are not carrying that." twice.)
07:54:16 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H1gRQ6S7gg "Now we destroy a castle with cannonball."
07:54:45 <zzo38> (It isn't very important though; other people will not see that message.)
07:57:15 <Bike> fizzie: snazzy. too bad the movie looks dull.
07:58:27 <Bike> that is some intense plowing
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08:05:24 <fizzie> They could have made a fancier video. Esp. the narration. But still, simulated snow.
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08:33:22 <ion> Most people at the con didn't notice him, he just walked around, sweeping things http://imgur.com/gallery/0TWF1nJ
08:33:37 <zzo38> True or false: What is the bus driver's name?
08:36:17 <zzo38> Do you know what is the square root of your godfather's telephone number (without trying to calculate it)?
08:37:34 <ion> Sorry, i’m not in the mafia.
08:38:01 <zzo38> Do people in the mafia figure it out ahead of time, or are told by other people, or something?
08:38:49 <ion> Yes, they are very much into knowing the square root of everything.
09:32:27 <quintopia> apparently patashu is a vihart fan.
09:33:08 <quintopia> he thinks computation in base 2 is easier than computation with e
09:36:51 <zzo38> What kind of computation is meant?
09:38:03 <FireFly> Hm, why do I recognize the nick Patashu?
09:40:17 <ion> It sounds like Pikachu
09:44:14 <fizzie> FireFly: From #esoteric, I would suppose.
09:46:08 <HackEgo> 2012-06-24 23:33:06: <Patashu> I am a continuous chess armchair theorist
09:47:50 <ion> Is “ever” not the default?
09:48:05 <ion> Err, why even have such a parameter?
09:48:44 <fizzie> Because it takes a terribly long time to scan through all the logs.
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09:49:13 <ion> That’s not the answer to my question. That’s the answer to “why do we use indexes?”
09:49:15 <fizzie> 17 seconds in my query beforehand; caching is probably responsible for the above happening in six.
09:49:59 <fizzie> That would presumably involve updating the index every time `seen is used, which is really rarely, too.
09:51:26 <ion> Indices should be updated simultaneously with log updates, not searches.
09:51:48 <fizzie> But that's not doable without touching HackEgo itself.
09:51:57 <zzo38> What about, storing in a SQL database and then using CREATE INDEX to do it; that way you can make various kind of search/query/statistics, especially if extensions are written.
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10:57:17 <nortti> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
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12:15:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/seen
12:19:44 <fizzie> I think that's partly my fault. :/
12:20:01 <fizzie> In fact, it might be entirely my fault.
12:21:17 <oerjan> i was just wondering, does it check the files in reverse order?
12:22:23 <fizzie> (And only the 30 latest without "ever".)
12:22:45 <fizzie> Oh, or did you mean within the files?
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12:24:03 <oerjan> nah, i don't think that would be important.
12:24:32 <HackEgo> 2013-11-25 12:24:28: <oerjan> `seen oerjan
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12:26:32 <oerjan> i was theoretically thinking, it should be possible to make a digest of files that leaves out every line that _isn't_ the last by that nick.
12:28:19 <oerjan> and then just replace the ls'ed files older than a certain date by those.
12:30:24 <oerjan> probably not worth the bother.
12:33:03 * oerjan is slightly annoyed that stackoverflow has no obvious shortcut to get to his favorite tag(s)
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12:38:00 <int-e> bah, sort -u compares the whole line, not only the key.
12:42:27 <oerjan> int-e: what if you add -s ?
12:45:55 <oerjan> wait, it works without -s for me.
12:46:59 <oerjan> `run (echo 'test';echo 'testing'; echo 'ho') | sort -u -k1.1,1.3
12:49:22 <oerjan> `run (echo 'testing';echo 'test'; echo 'ho') | sort -u -k1.1,1.3
12:59:39 <Taneb> > (==)<*>reverse$"hi"
12:59:42 <Taneb> > (==)<*>reverse$"hih"
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13:05:54 <boily> good cryogenic morning!
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13:06:41 <Taneb> boily: help I want to opimize some code I wrote but I can't until I get home tonight
13:07:24 <boily> Tanelle. what kind of code is that?
13:08:05 <Taneb> It's not even code that particularly needs optimizing
13:08:19 <Taneb> Find the largest palindrome that is the product of 4 2-digit numbers
13:08:22 <int-e> `run (echo 1 2; echo 1 3; echo 2 4) | sort -k1 -u
13:08:31 <Taneb> My code does it in .6 of a second
13:08:38 <int-e> `run (echo a b; echo a c; echo b d) | sort -k1 -u
13:08:45 <Taneb> A friend's does it in .006, apparently
13:09:21 <int-e> `run (echo a b; echo a c; echo b c) | sort -k2 -u
13:09:29 <int-e> oerjan: I'm confused :)
13:09:30 <boily> Taneb: can I peek at your code? sounds interestoptimising.
13:09:44 <Taneb> boily: unfortunately my code is at home
13:10:04 <boily> oh. so the want to optimise it, but being unable to. I understand too well that urge.
13:10:11 <Taneb> (and I'm writing in Haskell and he's writing in C and we're timing it using different methods)
13:10:38 <Taneb> (so he's not taking into account startup or printing)
13:10:39 <int-e> `run (echo a b; echo a c; echo b c) | sort -k1,1 -u
13:10:52 <int-e> oerjan: but it looks more and more like a bug :)
13:11:22 <boily> Taneb: compile to binary, “time ./whatever”?
13:11:28 <Taneb> That's what I'm doing
13:11:37 <Taneb> His code is doing it within the program
13:11:45 <Taneb> http://paste.strictfp.com/39615 is his code
13:11:49 <boily> nonsense. that's cheating, and unscientific.
13:13:13 <Taneb> I can remember a fair bit about my code off the top of my head
13:13:20 <Taneb> We used roughly the same algorithms
13:13:24 <int-e> `run (echo a b; echo a a) | sort -k1 -s
13:13:44 <Taneb> Except I found the answer by folding a list of [V4 Int]
13:16:37 <int-e> oerjan: ah, I see. I should read manpages more often.
13:17:43 <int-e> (I thought -k1 and -k1,1 were equivalent but now I see that they are not.)
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13:18:05 <boily> `run (echo a b; echo a a; echo b c) | sort -k1,1,1 -s
13:18:07 <HackEgo> sort: stray character in field spec: invalid field specification `1,1,1'
13:18:21 <Taneb> boily: it's essentially a strict 4-tuple
13:18:25 <Taneb> In the linear package
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13:21:21 <b_jonas> Taneb: trying to solve that palindrome problem you mentioned, not in an optimized way, but just solve it
13:22:13 <boily> @tell Taneb <b_jonas> Taneb: trying to solve that palindrome problem you mentioned, not in an optimized way, but just solve it
13:31:43 <b_jonas> ) 99*97*92*76 NB. I think this is the largest one, but I don't have a nice code to prove it yet
13:40:26 <fizzie> My (mostly) brute-force C verification consistently says "0.002" when timed with "time", but that's of course no proper kind of timing.
13:40:56 <ais523> time(1) works a lot better than using a stopwatch
13:41:18 <boily> there should be a “propertime” binary somewhere...
13:41:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: what result does it give?
13:41:39 <fizzie> b_jonas: The same. That's also in Taneb's paste.
13:41:57 <fizzie> Also the "time" output is "real 0m0.002s" "user 0m0.000s" "sys 0m0.000s" which is kind of meh.
13:44:36 <boily> (every time I hear “proper time”, http://youtu.be/yT5CzKGYhQk starts playing in my head.)
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14:05:14 <b_jonas> ) #m2a=. (#~6700&<)~./:~,*/~10+i.90
14:05:41 <b_jonas> that's the list of product of two two-digit numbers greater than 6700
14:05:53 <b_jonas> ) ]mr=. m4a{~1 i.~(-:"1|."1)(8#10)#: m4a=. ~.\:~,*/~m2a
14:06:56 <b_jonas> m4 is all pairwise products of two of those, so they're all products of four two-digit numbers, and no such product greater than 6700*99*99 can be missing.
14:07:13 <b_jonas> then mr is the largest palindrome from that list
14:07:53 <b_jonas> and this shows the four two-digit numbers you get this from
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14:24:32 <boily> are there as many tertues as there are aises?
14:24:49 <oerjan> there is only one ais. left.
14:25:24 <boily> and there are at least three tertues. right.
14:26:21 <oerjan> well three rights make a left.
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14:29:19 <HackEgo> 216) <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.) \ 502) <oerjan> theorem prover yada yada halting problem. \ 558) <oklopol> but i guess (x + y)^n = (x^2 + 2xy + y^2)(x^2 + 2xy + y^2)...(x^2 + 2xy + y^2) if n is even, (x + y)^n = (x^2 + 2xy + y^2)(x^2 + 2xy + y^2)...(x^2 + 2xy + y^
14:30:11 <HackEgo> 216) <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.) \ 502) <oerjan> theorem prover yada yada halting problem. \ 558) <oklopol> but i guess (x + y)^n = (x^2 + 2xy + y^2)(x^2 + 2xy + y^2)...(x^2 + 2xy + y^2) if n is even, (x + y)^n = (x^2 + 2xy + y^2)(x^2 + 2xy + y^2)...(x^2 + 2xy + y^
14:30:25 * boily kicks HackEgo in the case insensitives
14:30:43 <oerjan> `run allquotes | grep Theorem
14:30:44 <HackEgo> 963) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
14:32:57 <boily> I am trying to parse that mysterious declension, with no avail.
14:33:06 <oerjan> alternatively, excessively punctuated.
14:33:37 <boily> I like punctuation. you can use all sort of them!
14:36:18 <HackEgo> [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
14:37:16 <fizzie> "The irony mark or irony point (⸮) (French: point d’ironie) is a punctuation mark proposed by the French poet Alcanter de Brahm (alias Marcel Bernhardt) at the end of the 19th century used to indicate that a sentence should be understood at a second level (irony, sarcasm, etc.)"
14:39:08 -!- mrhmouse has joined.
14:39:21 <fizzie> ?⸮¿ is also a good punctuation for "nurr so confused nurr".
14:39:48 <HackEgo> [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
14:39:58 <fizzie> (Any permutation of those three is valid, but there are subtle changes in tone.)
14:40:23 <HackEgo> [U+003F QUESTION MARK] [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK] [U+00BF INVERTED QUESTION MARK]
14:40:48 <oerjan> `unicode INVERTED REVERSED QUESTION MARK
14:40:51 <fizzie> The REVERSED INVERTED QUESTION MARK is not in Unicode, as far as I can tell, shamefully.
14:41:26 <boily> shameful encoding. Shunicode.
14:41:42 <oerjan> `unicode BADLY KERNED RN
14:43:29 <ion> `unicode LATIN SMALL LIGATURE RN
14:43:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unidecore: not found
14:43:45 <HackEgo> [U+1EBF LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH CIRCUMFLEX AND ACUTE]
14:45:01 <HackEgo> [U+DEAD DUNNO] [U+BEEF HANGUL SYLLABLE BBEGS]
14:45:31 <fizzie> There are 24 question marks: the regular, the {INVERTED,GREEK,ARMENIAN,ARABIC,ETHIOPIC,LIMBU,DOUBLE,EXCLAMATION,REVERSED,VAI,BAMUM,PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL,SMALL,FULLWIDTH,CHAKMA,TAG} QUESTION MARK, the QUESTION EXCLAMATION MARK, the COPTIC OLD NUBIAN {DIRECT,INDIRECT} QUESTION MARK, the {BLACK,WHITE} QUESTION MARK ORNAMENT and the {LESS,GREATER}-THAN WITH QUESTION MARK ABOVE.
14:46:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: also the interrobang and I think there's a banginterro or whatsit
14:46:47 <fizzie> Yes, I counted only characters including the words QUESTION and MARK.
14:47:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok, so cuont 0x2048 and 0x2049 too
14:47:55 <boily> http://imgur.com/YlA36ze
14:48:15 <fizzie> b_jonas: I did count those.
14:48:23 <fizzie> b_jonas: They're right there in the lists.
14:49:11 <fizzie> There's also the INVERTED INTERROBANG, if you want to go that way.
14:50:13 <fizzie> And also QUESTIONED EQUAL TO, APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL QUAD QUESTION, and CIRCLED IDEOGRAPH QUESTION.
14:51:12 <fizzie> First two involve a ?-like thing in them.
14:51:40 <fizzie> As does the official picture of the REPLACEMENT CHARACTER.
14:52:49 <oerjan> `unicode REPLACEMENT CHARACTER
14:53:03 <oerjan> I DON'T THINK I HAVE THAT ONE
14:54:38 <fizzie> You need to use UPPERCASE when discussing UNICODE.
14:56:44 <b_jonas> FIZZIE: WHAT? CAN'T HEAR YOU. SPEAK LOUDER!
14:58:16 <boily> THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING EVEN MORE UPPER THAN UPPERCASE WHEN UNICODISCUSSING. SOMETHING... GRANDIOSE, MAGNIFICENT. SOMETHING LIKE: EXCELLENTCASE!
15:00:18 * boily replaces int-e with an IOCCC entry typeset to look like a replacement character.
15:00:26 <fizzie> (Sorry if something broke that.)
15:00:51 <int-e> something broke mine :/
15:01:16 <fizzie> Both look fine in the browser-view of the logs, so I guess it's okay.
15:04:12 <int-e> data:text/plain,%F0%9D%90%8E%F0%9D%90%87+%F0%9D%90%8D%F0%9D%91%B6%F0%9D%91%82%E2%9D%A3 ... hmm.
15:09:46 <int-e> actually it's just screen displaying those characters that's broken -- they made it fine to the channel as http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-11-25 proves.
15:24:16 <oerjan> i didn't see anything break in tmux.
15:25:45 <boily> hm. trying to start screen in tmux in screen doesn't work.
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15:46:29 <FireFly> something broke putty. a lot.
15:48:37 <mrhmouse> FireFly: Didn't break my PuTTY or tmux. What's your remote character set?
15:49:09 <FireFly> This is a weird putty app thingy for symbian, so that might be why
15:49:47 <mrhmouse> (although, my characters don't display correctly - my RCS is UTF-8 and I'm seeing Chinese characters instead of the text I see in the browser view of the logs)
15:50:43 <FireFly> This putty app thing seems to render fragments of boily's all-caps line in place of int-e's an fizzie's lines
15:51:01 <FireFly> which I'm pretty sure is very wrong
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15:51:16 <FireFly> I'd take a screenshot if I could..
15:54:08 -!- FreeFull has joined.
15:55:02 <boily> (it's a Firefly-FreeFull-hello combo!)
15:56:39 <FireFly> Fun fact: "fyllo" is swedish slang for "drunk"
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16:05:09 <ais523> @tell oerjan I can't see a reasonable interpretation of this: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Universal_Turing_machine&curid=1168&diff=37907&oldid=7972 except vandalism, or someone who really doesn't understand how software works
16:22:29 <int-e> hmm. http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Self-modifying_Brainfuck&diff=prev&oldid=37875
16:23:45 <mrhmouse> I don't think Lucasieks understands how wikis work
16:27:55 <ais523> there's clearly something he/she doesn't understand
16:27:58 <ais523> but I'm not entirely sure what it is
16:29:20 <ais523> hmm… I wonder if he/she is browsing entirely from view source, using some sort of third-party viewer
16:29:31 <ais523> I'm not sure why you'd do that, but it'd explain the #REDIRECT change
16:31:52 <int-e> Bah. There is one serious (if self-promoting) contribution, and the rest of the edits look worthless from the sample I've looked at. :-/
16:33:36 <ais523> self-promotion is fine on esolangs.org, so long as it's ontopic
16:33:39 <ais523> nothing would ever get done otherwise
16:33:50 <mrhmouse> I can agree with int-e. Looks like some kid goofing off
16:33:56 <ais523> (there's a rules page somewhere where it's explicitly allowed, probably http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Policy)
16:34:01 <mrhmouse> Especially the random line breaks
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16:37:43 <int-e> ais523: on the ZZZ page, the [[stub]] thing was also added by Lucasieks. (I'm not sure whether the page should be marked as a stub. There's little more to say about a brainfuck derivative.)
16:38:16 <ais523> int-e: I noticed, but at least that wasn't outright counterproductive so I just decided to fix the syntax
16:41:36 <int-e> Fair enough (I should probably shut up anyway, since I'm not contributing to the wiki. Thanks for the hard work!)
16:47:11 <boily> quintopia: bon matintopia!
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17:02:08 <quintopia> boily: you slipped that one in just under the wire. past the eleventh hour even!
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17:19:34 <Slereah> How does assembly work in dual cores?
17:19:47 <Slereah> How do you specify which CPU you're talking to
17:20:39 <Bike> i was going to give you a snotty response but then realized i don't particularly know myself. well played.
17:20:59 <Bike> pretty sure it's arch-dependent. you tell the OS to do it. how the OS does it, i don't know
17:21:25 <Slereah> I get a lot of "the OS does it" whenever I ask assembly questions
17:21:57 <Bike> managing this shit is what the OS is for, after all.
17:22:13 <Slereah> Yeah, but I like to learn things bottom up
17:22:51 <Bike> the problem is that there are hundreds of different bottoms for different arches :p
17:23:16 <Slereah> Sure, but most of them are similar bottoms
17:24:00 <Slereah> Pretty much all computers are variations on the Von Neumann architecture
17:24:07 <Slereah> And a lot of them are Intel stuff
17:24:32 <Slereah> A lot of these questions do not depend that much on the architecture, for the most part
17:25:39 <Bike> yeah but "von neumann architecture" is pretty broad, that's like saying english and sanskrit are both variations on indo-european so it's simple
17:25:42 <Slereah> It's not like I'm using some soviet analog computer from the 60's
17:25:44 <Bike> plus modern computers are harvardish at times
17:26:08 <Slereah> Intel is more of a "Germanic language" though
17:26:18 <Slereah> Perhaps even north germanic!
17:28:59 <Bike> «regarding x86. In a multi threaded environment (Hyper-threading, multi-core or multi-processor), the Bootstrap thread (usually thread 0 in core 0 in processor 0) starts up fetching code from address 0xfffffff0. All the other threads start up in a special sleep state called Wait-for-SIPI. As part of its initialization, the primary thread sends a special inter-processor-interrupt (IPI) over the APIC called a SIPI (Startup IPI) to each ...
17:29:05 <Bike> ... thread that is in WFS. The SIPI contains the address from which that thread should start fetching code.»
17:29:41 <Slereah> And I guess there's some opcodes to communicate between processors, maybe?
17:29:46 <Slereah> Or do they work independantly
17:29:50 <Bike> independently.
17:29:57 <Bike> they share memory, though.
17:31:08 <Bike> the few cores on a CPU generally are for running totally independent processes, so intercore communication doesn't have to be fast
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17:46:47 <fizzie> This reconnect brought to you by the We Don't Look At Hostnames In Prompts Before 'shutdown -r now' Foundation.
17:47:34 <mrhmouse> (and people like you. Thank you.)
17:48:03 <ais523> fizzie: I have a different sudo password on every computer where I have sudoers access
17:48:12 <ais523> it's saved me from stupid mistakes like that several times so far
17:49:16 <fizzie> Something like that might not be a bad idea.
17:53:46 <FireFly> I use one colour for the prompt per machine
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18:09:48 * boily pokes whichever sebbu is currently connected
18:09:56 <metasepia> CYUL 251800Z 15010KT 30SM BKN040 BKN085 BKN240 M05/M18 A3024 RMK SC5AC1CI1 SLP244
18:10:05 <boily> oh. only minus 5. yééé....
18:10:32 <metasepia> ESSA 251750Z 32010KT CAVOK M02/M06 Q1025 R01L/19//95 R08/19//95 R01R/19//95 NOSIG
18:13:20 -!- zzo38 has joined.
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18:16:01 <zzo38> boily: A few days ago I received a message from you but the context is unclear. Can you explain it please?
18:16:40 <int-e> hah. speaking of context :)
18:16:40 <boily> zzo38: was that about you being the weirdest?
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18:17:08 <boily> the context was computer setups and suchlike.
18:18:09 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
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18:20:09 <mrhmouse> I haven't checked on ruddy in a while...
18:20:11 <ruddy> So I've understood. I only know of it because of the piracy thing.
18:21:07 <int-e> ah yes. <ais523> fizzie: you still have a config.sys? / <boily> people here have weird, weird setups. / <boily> @tell zzo38 you are the weirdest.
18:21:49 <int-e> (the discussion was longer, but that should do for context)
18:25:57 <boily> ruddy: do you understand context?
18:25:57 <ruddy> like in a university
18:26:09 <boily> I take that as a resounding “no”.
18:28:22 <mrhmouse> ruddy understand as much as I would expect, which isn't much
18:28:23 <ruddy> I guess it is more of a loop yeah
18:29:53 <boily> circular logic ftw!
18:30:34 <mrhmouse> I really need to get to work on having ruddy understand a subset of English.. or maybe just a new bot
18:30:39 <ruddy> mrhmouse, symbols, whose values are looked up in the court of the LORD's glory.
18:31:36 <boily> ruddy: have you been reading /r/fearme lately?
18:31:37 <ruddy> I need so much more privacy to be comfortable
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18:32:05 <boily> mrhmouse: your bot is under Bad Influences. He is Basking under the Glorious Shadows of the Throne.
18:32:06 <int-e> stay away from reddit then, ruddy
18:32:06 <ruddy> i want a break from it. so it took a while to adjust to it and crossed my fingers.)
18:32:11 <metasepia> EFHK 251820Z 31007KT CAVOK M04/M05 Q1019 NOSIG
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18:32:21 <fizzie> Does that ever say "M00"?
18:32:34 <fizzie> (For below-zero-but-rounds-to-zero.)
18:32:52 <boily> fizzie: afaicrbtnm, yes.
18:33:49 <mrhmouse> boily: "btnm"? "but that's not much"?
18:34:12 <boily> mrhmouse: wow. you guessed it.
18:34:18 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
18:34:23 <boily> `relcome callforjudgement
18:34:26 <HackEgo> callforjudgement: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:35:20 <Taneb> b_jonas, we agree on the answer :)
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19:20:11 <boily> HAH! I GOT IT! MWAH AH AH HA AH AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
19:20:48 <boily> nothing to be afraid of. only a hairy Python problem solved.
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19:21:59 <mrhmouse> if I had a nickel for every time I've had a hairy python problem...
19:22:11 <kmc> also, hi everyone
19:22:53 <kmc> `ello limonc
19:22:54 <Taneb> My C solution runs in 1/70 the time of my Haskell solution
19:23:02 <kmc> that didn't work at all
19:23:58 <mrhmouse> Taneb: but which one is easier to understand?
19:24:15 <Taneb> mrhmouse, probably either depending on how you think
19:24:17 <mrhmouse> kmc: clearly we need a `cosby function
19:24:28 <kmc> how would that work
19:25:40 <kmc> it's booze, so yes
19:25:51 <boily> it's very strong and sweet booze.
19:26:06 <HackEgo> [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O]
19:26:17 * boily whistles innocently ♪
19:26:23 <kmc> CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER SINGLE NON-OCULAR O
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19:27:11 <fizzie> I have a bottle of "Pallini" brand limoncello in the closet, bought because fi:pallini == en:"my balls".
19:27:35 <fizzie> There's a tumblr of jokes about it, of course.
19:27:57 <kmc> did you try any
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19:29:34 <fizzie> Not from this particular bottle; I haven't managed to organize our usual set of participants yet. I might have had some of "my balls" on a previous trip to Italy, but I can't be sure about that.
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19:30:11 <nooodl> this sounds like a good tumblr especially because i don't know finnish. please link
19:30:13 <mrhmouse> fizzie: and with one sentence you seem to have frightened off Phantom_Hoover
19:30:45 <fizzie> nooodl: Oh no, it turns out to have been a blogspot. But anyway: http://pallinimun.blogspot.com/
19:31:24 <fizzie> Many of the puns are not going to translate well.
19:31:31 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
19:31:34 <nooodl> i was right. this is the best blog ever
19:31:49 <fizzie> Like that bit about the cucumber is because the Finnish word for "cucumber" equals the Finnish word for "throat".
19:32:10 <nooodl> pikkujoulutunnelmissa is a good word
19:32:36 <nooodl> http://pallinimun.blogspot.be/2012/12/pallini-aamiaisen-kanssa-sankyyn.html god i can't imagine the joke here at all
19:32:57 <fizzie> "My balls in bed with the breakfast", going from the URL.
19:33:27 <nooodl> it's that plus "tarjoiltuna"
19:33:49 <nooodl> is this breakfast in finland. finland is weird
19:33:56 <fizzie> Well, that's just "served".
19:34:16 <fizzie> I guess it could be someone's breakfast.
19:34:42 <fizzie> I mean, there's bread, there's fruit, there's some cheese, there's some yogurt. That's not so weird, is it?
19:35:03 <kmc> you have a "usual set of participants" for sampling italian liqueurs with unintentionally hilarious names?
19:35:24 <Bike> be prepared for anything kmc
19:35:40 <kmc> now I wish I lived within a thousand miles of fizzie
19:35:51 <fizzie> kmc: Well, technically it's a "usual set of participants" for sampling all different brands of tequila we come across, but we've been branching out.
19:36:08 <boily> the revelations, they are striking.
19:36:43 <fizzie> kmc: For example, we sampled this: http://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/bottel.jpg
19:36:50 <fizzie> (It tasted exactly like it looks like.)
19:38:39 * boily is disturbed “guess I wasn't prepared for anything.”
19:39:19 <fizzie> It's a bottle. I guess that depends on your place of work?
19:39:38 <kmc> what about girls?
19:39:59 <kmc> is it vodka with estrogen mixed in or something
19:40:28 <fizzie> Sadly, it's just "Litchi, Framboise, Vodka Premium & Cognac", like it says on the bottle.
19:41:17 <kmc> litchi = lychee?
19:41:20 <boily> as expected from a French bottle, the label is mostly English.
19:42:28 <fizzie> It wasn't very good, just so you know.
19:52:45 <b_jonas> Taneb: I've showed the calculation too since: http://dpaste.com/1482712/
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21:27:06 <boily> every time I see Phantom__Hoover swapping _es, I get reminded of mitosis, like if a new Phantom__Hoover got generated.
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22:03:26 <impomatic> How can I download the entire archive of a USENET group? (going back to 1991)
22:04:09 <lambdabot> ais523 said 5h 59m ago: I can't see a reasonable interpretation of this: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Universal_Turing_machine&curid=1168&diff=37907&oldid=7972 except vandalism, or someone
22:04:09 <lambdabot> who really doesn't understand how software works
22:04:56 <fizzie> oerjan: I guess that covers pretty much all #esoteric messages.
22:05:12 <Bike> please. i pride myself on my low algorithmic randomness
22:05:21 <Bike> also my parity
22:08:15 <int-e> lambdabot: you really didn't have to split that into two lines ... *goes look at some code*
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22:08:46 <oerjan> @tell ais523 Well he did understand how {{wrongtitle|...}} worked, at least.
22:15:26 <int-e> textwidth = 200 -- IRC maximum msg length, minus a bit for safety.
22:15:40 <int-e> that is quite a safety margin :)
22:16:53 <oerjan> you need to include room for :lambdabot!wherever@somewhere PRIVMSG : or what it was
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22:17:32 <elliott> also a possible + or - with that one extension clients can enable. and other stuff
22:17:32 <int-e> oerjan: yes, but the limit is 512 (- newline - what you said)
22:17:38 <FireFly> it'd be nice if it listened to the capabilities message sent on connect
22:17:43 <elliott> the newline is two bytes, though :)
22:17:56 <elliott> also inter-server communication can add stuff, IIRC
22:18:09 <elliott> looks like lambdabot's longest-named channel is #learnanycomputerlanguage
22:18:16 <Bike> let's all use xdcc
22:18:25 <oerjan> oh right the channel name
22:19:06 <oerjan> lambdabot should be able to know the length of that, though.
22:19:23 <int-e> apparently the limit is lifted for inter-server communication nowadays. look at the calculation in http://scripts.irssi.org/html/splitlong.pl.html ... and that script seems to work reasonably well :)
22:19:29 <elliott> just saying it isn't as easy as bumping up a constant a bit
22:19:44 <fizzie> freenode cloaks are quite annoying for splitting.
22:19:57 <fizzie> splitlong.pl gets them wrong.
22:20:37 <fizzie> (It calculates assuming hostname for the prefix.)
22:20:56 <int-e> elliott: I'll probably bump it to 350. :)
22:21:22 <Bike> i can't tell if the smilies are passive aggressive or what
22:21:40 <int-e> they are supposed to be friendly.
22:21:47 <int-e> but I do overuse them.
22:22:07 <oerjan> there is no such thing as a passive agressive smiley :)
22:23:32 <fizzie> I've splitlong_max_length set to 400, and that seems to have been safe so far.
22:27:48 -!- yorick has quit (Quit: quit.).
22:28:51 <oerjan> > var "snicker\nsnack"
22:29:26 <mrhmouse> does the IRC message limit of 512 include name/channel/etc, or just the "message" part itself?
22:29:26 <FireFly> I wonder if it caps at three lines?
22:29:36 <FireFly> mrhmouse: it's the whole raw message AFAIK
22:29:51 <oerjan> i assume the first line is different on purpose
22:29:52 <FireFly> so, including name/channel/etc
22:29:58 <int-e> right, so it includes all that.
22:30:24 <elliott> there is no purpose in lambdabot.
22:30:33 <mrhmouse> Hrm... I'm using a third-party lib for ruddy that claims to cap at 512.. I wonder if that includes the entire message.
22:30:38 <ruddy> I'm not sure why you'd do that, but it'd explain the #REDIRECT change
22:30:47 <int-e> oerjan: I'm note sure about that.
22:31:01 <ruddy> Running out of letters. :-(
22:31:08 <lambdabot> UmbertoEco says: I don't even have an e-mail address. I have reached an age where my main purpose is not to receive messages.
22:33:18 <int-e> > [1..] -- oh I guess this one is goverened by textwidth as well?
22:33:19 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
22:34:10 <oerjan> int-e: > commands give much longer output in private.
22:35:01 <int-e> it'd be bad if lambdabot would suddenly produce twice as much output on the channels for infinite lists.
22:36:15 <oerjan> it's considerably more than twice. i tested and it got up to 283.
22:37:06 <oerjan> split into five lines.
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22:37:36 <int-e> it's a feature, I believe
22:38:10 <oerjan> i vaguely think the limit was higher before, but #haskell is much larger now.
22:38:10 <shachaf> kmc: I press Alt-R instead of Alt-4 and Firefox restarts, losing all my tabs?
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22:38:49 <mrhmouse> oerjan: I tried [1, 3..] and got six lines
22:39:02 <shachaf> It behaves differently in /msg
22:39:07 <kmc> shachaf: sucks :(
22:39:11 <mrhmouse> so it's limiting off of number of elements
22:39:19 <shachaf> I had a bunch of logged in sessions in Private Browsing.
22:39:28 <oerjan> wait did i say five, i meant six.
22:39:40 <FireFly> The sixth one kinda doesn't count though
22:40:15 <FireFly> > length . show $ [1..283]
22:40:28 <FireFly> Oh. that makes for a sane number to restrict output to
22:40:45 <oerjan> yes, it's just the length of the string showed.
22:41:14 <oerjan> iirc it always caps at 1024, even if it shows a shorter string.
22:41:31 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
22:42:07 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
22:42:31 <int-e> yes. mueval cuts the result off at 1024 characters; lambdabot then formats the result
22:42:31 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
22:43:00 <lambdabot> (!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]]
22:43:09 <Bike> what in god's name
22:43:30 <lambdabot> [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
22:45:00 <lambdabot> "27182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277240766303...
22:45:18 <int-e> [4..]!!n looks a bit silly.
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22:54:24 <int-e> oerjan: there are two places where a space is added to the output of @eval ... once in the eval plugin itself, which preprends a space to the output, and once in a generic function that tries to be polite on channels (which is also responsible for limiting lines to 80 characters).
22:55:03 <elliott> @eval is something else entirely!
22:55:06 <int-e> so, no, that doesn't look intentional to me :)
22:55:15 <int-e> I mean @run, but the plugin is called Eval.
22:56:03 <lambdabot> choose. Lambdabot featuring AI power
22:56:51 <int-e> @choose the alternative
22:58:43 <oerjan> lambdabot: way to leave out the breakdown
22:59:19 <int-e> that plugin was too noisy
22:59:26 <shachaf> Not the @numberwang version.
22:59:30 <shachaf> Just the unprompted version.
22:59:47 <shachaf> Well, that's an unsolvable problem.
22:59:53 <shachaf> kmc wrote a good Numberwang tester.
23:00:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: numberwang: not found
23:00:29 <int-e> s/not found/That's not a Numberwang!/
23:00:48 <EgoBot> I'm sorry, but Brazil isn't a vegetable!
23:01:27 <Taneb> I wonder if we can hook `thanks to a karma system
23:01:53 <oerjan> Taneb: the answer is: yes! we *can* do that.
23:02:35 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
23:03:01 -!- yorick_ has joined.
23:03:38 <int-e> Bike: look, now there's a really awful smiley.
23:03:39 <Taneb> Who was admin of lambdabot before Cale?
23:03:47 <HackEgo> eZ&W:{\4g_R"y榭y6w1i5d)u+..?_V-.YD1! E4X|sKKVsc\\><>y̔\4I.DDۦԢɘ_萺j⫤8|
23:03:58 <shachaf> Apparently it was geekosaur once upon a time?
23:04:00 <Bike> i'ma big fan of ¯\(°_o)/¯ :(
23:04:10 <shachaf> And of course it was Pseudonym once.
23:05:07 <int-e> dons, certainly. geekosaur, I believe so; I don't know about Pseudonym.
23:05:22 <shachaf> Maybe I'm mixing people up.
23:05:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: celebrate: not found
23:05:42 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
23:05:42 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c ¦
23:05:42 <myndzi> /`\ c.c /< |\| | /< c.c >\ | /< | |\ c.c ´¸¨
23:05:46 <int-e> shachaf: Oh I wasn't trying to say that you're wrong. I didn't keep track.
23:05:58 <shachaf> But maybe I'm mixing people up.
23:07:17 <shachaf> @tell myndzi <shachaf> c.c.c.c </shachaf> # bug
23:07:37 <lambdabot> "c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c.c....
23:08:46 <int-e> actually, that could look kind of cute.
23:09:27 <oerjan> i recall myndzi ignored HackEgo ¯\(°_o)/¯ at one time. did someone request that back?
23:09:49 <int-e> misaligned. and yes, you're probably right :)
23:10:15 <fizzie> That \O/ is like a crown, right?
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23:10:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/%3F
23:11:24 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick.
23:12:26 <int-e> never mind, I should just read the source.
23:12:37 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:12:56 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/°_o/°_o/' bin/'?'
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23:15:02 <FireFly> int-e: apparently it's not too surprising
23:15:39 <int-e> `echo nooodl | rnooodl
23:15:44 <FireFly> oh heh, ngevd is special-cased
23:15:59 <FireFly> int-e: you want to `run that
23:16:06 <int-e> `run echo nooodl | rnooodl
23:16:56 <HackEgo> Thanks, FireFly. ThireFly.
23:18:20 <HackEgo> Thanks, Mgrvgrvladje. Thadje.
23:18:24 -!- lambdabot has joined.
23:18:29 <int-e> lambdabot: what did you do?
23:18:34 <HackEgo> Thanks, lambdabot. Thambdabot.
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23:19:05 <int-e> but at least it came back without me having to do anything about it. good.
23:22:49 <int-e> oerjan: and now it splits [1..] into three lines rather than 5 :)
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23:39:39 <fungot> shachaf: i can use dingbat circled sans-serif digit five
23:39:50 <fungot> shachaf: i say don't worry and use it a lot in my fnord to huhta.
23:40:13 <int-e> I'm the numberwang and I'm okay, I count all night and a sleep all day...
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23:41:40 <shachaf> fungot: is int-e numberwang
23:41:41 <fungot> shachaf: fnord ihope waits patiently for someone to come tell me that
23:42:40 * oerjan sees no trace of ihope here by any name
23:43:08 <fungot> shachaf: a debian terminal is pretty dark, after all.) and (
23:43:09 <int-e> ihope by any other name smells just as sweet?
23:43:25 <oerjan> just as tswett, usually.
23:44:25 <int-e> ^all `those @prefixes !make %me #dizzy
23:44:41 <oerjan> ^prefixes -- happy to help
23:44:41 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
23:45:30 <typeclassy> is it safe to have so many bots in one channel?
23:46:35 <int-e> `run (echo tsrif; echo ytefas) | rev | tac
23:47:40 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
23:48:01 <HackEgo> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
23:48:04 <typeclassy> `thanks \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
23:48:05 <HackEgo> Thanks, \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/. Tho| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/.
23:49:03 <oerjan> typeclassy: there are various mechanisms for avoiding botloops, but i'm not sure if all of them are currently watertight. (i don't recall if lambdabot's obscure loophole was closed.)
23:51:01 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
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23:51:19 <nooodl> shachaf: help is it bad if i'm not even surprised by that result
23:51:28 <oerjan> i think they smelled my plans...
23:52:06 <int-e> Well, that's because virtually all bots (including lambdabot) violate the recommendation of the IRC RFC (1459): automatic responses should only be made to PRIVMSG messages, and should be sent as NOTICE. (clients hilighting NOTICE don't help...)
23:52:31 <oerjan> i think i can get a chain fungot -> HackEgo/EgoBot -> lambdabot, but you cannot get back to fungot because it has an ignore system.
23:52:59 <oerjan> int-e: OH GOD I HATE THAT DISCUSSION
23:53:14 <oerjan> botloops are _fun_, dammit.
23:53:38 <int-e> oerjan: There's no need to discuss this :)
23:55:36 <int-e> obviously, lambdabot's current approach is to put a space in front of everything that might come from a user, but I don't know how thoroughly that was done. (and it won't help with bots like fungot and ruddy ? who will reply to anything with their name in it)
23:56:02 <int-e> oh. not fungot, then :)
23:56:26 <oerjan> fungot is not here at the moment. fizzie!
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23:57:40 <oerjan> ruddy seems harmless as you cannot get em to respond reliably in any useful format. fungot's bladder works similarly, although adds the original nick.
23:57:54 <oerjan> ruddy: RELIABLY, i said.
23:57:54 <ruddy> it's probably a bit more difficult to keep track of who every customer is like that
00:00:48 <oerjan> yeah ?where was the loophole i was thinking of.
00:01:08 <Bike> god help us if someone makes a bot triggered by "I" or a space
00:01:48 <int-e> @where+ loop @where q
00:02:20 <int-e> yeah. it really should just add a space to everything :)
00:03:41 <jconn> oerjan: |syntax error
00:04:11 <oerjan> i think jconn and lambdabot can loop.
00:04:33 <oerjan> well, assuming J can output formatted text.
00:04:44 <shachaf> do you know that great feature where lambdabot checks whether a nick ends in "bot"
00:05:22 <shachaf> elliott discovered it when testing in the channel "#lambdabot"
00:05:46 <shachaf> do you know that great feature where lambdabot checked whether a nick ends in "bot"
00:07:11 <nooodl> did it just silently ignore every command you'd give in #lambdabot. if so that sounds... fun
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00:56:36 <oerjan> !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"Fh}|Bcy?`=*z]Kw%oG4UUS0/@-ejc(:'8dc
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00:58:38 <Bike> huh, i thought malbolge programs were generally longer
00:59:08 <oerjan> User:ErichS8 at wikipedia has been greatly improving it
01:04:11 <oerjan> hm the one in our wiki's hello world page is none of the ones in wikipedia.
01:04:26 <Bike> "After each instruction is executed, the guilty instruction gets encrypted[...] after a jump, Malbolge will encrypt the innocent instruction just prior" this seems unwikipedian
01:04:34 <Bike> good pun though
01:04:50 <oerjan> but _starts_ with the same code as the newest short version.
01:05:12 <oerjan> !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vw/.R,+Op(L,+k#Gh&}Cdz@aw=;zyKw%ut4Uqp0/mlejihtfrHcbaC2^W\>Z,XW)UTSL53\HGFjW
01:05:23 <oerjan> oh it's not exactly the same text.
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01:06:21 <oerjan> first 14 chars are the same.
01:09:46 <oerjan> mtve: hey you made the one in the wiki http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages&diff=6158&oldid=5803
01:12:39 <HackEgo> 2013-03-15 11:37:33: <mtve> i like kenrube's homepage btw (not really sure its his, but it was mentioned somewhere linked to him) - http://www.yyyyyyy.info/
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02:29:34 <ion> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/11/newegg-trial-crypto-legend-diffie-takes-the-stand-to-knock-out-patent/
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02:39:03 <Bike> discovery: opencl is really boring
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02:40:24 <Bike> why does seemingly every C library define a typedef around int and other basic types
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02:45:13 <Taneb> Missing: Taneb's sleep schedule
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02:50:31 <ion> Sorry, i borrowed it.
02:50:49 <Taneb> ion, give it back when you're done
02:51:10 <ion> Crap. It seems i have lost it, too.
02:59:26 <Sgeo> I must be some kind of cruel, heartless neurogengineer
02:59:58 <Sgeo> Don't know if I already mentioned my latest norn cruelty or not
03:00:02 <Bike> did you decerberate a cat
03:00:22 <Bike> look did you mutilate a fucking cat or not fuck this language fuck science fuck everything
03:00:36 <Sgeo> No cats were mutilated in the mutilation of norns
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03:03:24 <Sgeo> Made a norn that's blind to anything that's moving, relative to its own location. Norns tend to move around a lot, especially when they can't do anything, e.g. if they're blind
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03:04:19 <Bike> pointless nerd shit. i want to see blood sgeo
03:04:39 <Bike> blood on your hands
03:05:23 <Sgeo> Taneb: a species of virtual creature in the Creatures series of games
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05:15:36 <pikhq> Bike: There are a lot of utterly incompetent C coders out there.
05:15:53 <Bike> this is an industry standard, though...
05:15:53 <pikhq> Bike: There's also a lot of stupid cargo cult stuff going on.
05:16:13 <pikhq> Yes, but even zlib is in freaking terrible C.
05:17:15 <Bike> i just, i don't get it. what's the thought process behind foo_int
05:17:29 <pikhq> typedef unsigned char Byte;
05:18:00 <pikhq> typedef unsigned char FAR Bytef; // Yes, because DOS is *that* important in software released today.
05:18:25 <pikhq> And yes, believe it or not zlib still is littered with far pointer annotations.
05:18:43 <pikhq> Just in case you wanna use your 286.
05:18:49 <lifthrasiir> I think the modern descendant of DOS now supports x64 as well :S
05:19:31 <pikhq> Eh, WinNT is about as much DOS as Linux is.
05:21:20 <pikhq> Bike: Part of the issue is, so few people write good C that there's nothing to learn good C style *from*.
05:21:37 <pikhq> I mean, shit, people use int instead of size_t for goodness sake.
05:22:10 <Bike> this explains a lot about my formative years programming.
05:22:37 <Bike> in that i read a lot of C and didn't understand a bit of it
05:22:47 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: and intptr_t and uintptr_t and int_fastN_t etc.
05:23:12 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: To be fair-ish, intptr_t, uintptr_t, intN_t, etc. are C99-isms.
05:23:31 <pikhq> And Microsoft's compiler is still stuck in 1989.
05:23:39 <Bike> right now i'm kind of weirded out that opencl not only has a runtime compiler but lets you call it asynchronously by specifying a callback function (??)
05:23:52 <lifthrasiir> right, but that has changed printf formatting specifications as well, and there is not much need for two copies of printf in libc.
05:24:27 <pikhq> Meh, Microsoft's C library is also psycho broken in many other regards.
05:24:55 <pikhq> (SUPPORT UTF-8 YOU PSYCHOTIC BASTARDS)
05:26:02 <pikhq> Yeah, z is the size_t or ssize_t length modifier.
05:26:03 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: I think once upon a time msvcrt did not support floating point printing in printf() unless there are no floating point library (analogous to libm, but automatically linked) used. is this still a case?
05:26:14 <Bike> what's wrong with it?
05:27:11 * pikhq looks forward to the days of i686-windows-musl
05:27:15 <lifthrasiir> Bike: there are bunch of other prefixes for such integral-but-i-dunno-its-size pseudo-types.
05:27:46 <pikhq> Only 2 others. j is intmax_t and t is ptrdiff_t.
05:28:04 <pikhq> The intN_t types have preprocessor defines.
05:28:40 <pikhq> Suboptimal, but eh.
05:29:07 <pikhq> In a sense they're the least intrusive way of doing so. Especially since they're only exposed by inttypes.h
05:29:44 <Bike> this conversation has gotten away from me but now i know uint_least32_t and uint_fast32_t are distinct
05:30:19 <pikhq> Bike: Nominally distinct. They're pretty likely to be typedef'd the same though.
05:30:31 <Bike> diggin all these constants. INTMAX_MIN
05:30:58 <pikhq> And you can just use "unsigned int" instead of uint_least32_t on POSIX...
05:40:23 <pikhq> Seriously, have you ever looked at zlib's source?
05:41:41 <pikhq> https://github.com/madler/zlib/blob/master/adler32.c Freaking adler32 was made this complicated.
05:42:28 <Bike> "#define local static" i see.
05:43:27 <pikhq> uint32_t adler32(uint32_t adler, const char *buf, size_t len) {uint16_t sum1 = adler, sum2 = adler>>16;for(;len;len--,buf++){sum1+=*buf;sum2+=sum1;sum1%=65521;sum2%=65521;}return (sum1 << 16) | sum2; }
05:44:00 <pikhq> It's not a hard function.
05:44:16 <Bike> oh i'm liking ZEXPORT what's that do
05:44:33 <lifthrasiir> except that division by 65521 is expensive.
05:44:44 <pikhq> On Windows, __declspec(dllexport). On BeOS, __declspec(dllexport). Elsewhere, nothing.
05:46:26 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: anyway, I think a freshly-redesigned version of zlib would be better to manage, there are actually several known issues with zlib's performance.
05:47:02 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Fine, while(len){ size_t i = 0;for(;i < 5552 && i < len;i++) { sum1+=buf[i]; sum2+=sum1; } sum1%=65521; sum2%=65521; buf+=i;len-=i; }
05:47:40 * pikhq looks at ~/src/pikhq-zlib
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05:51:46 <pikhq> It's not even *that* big of an interface, just kinda ugly.
05:54:27 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/HLVF Like, that's the whole thing.
05:55:30 <Bike> what's the difference between a voidpf and a voidp.
05:55:51 <pikhq> On DOS, a voidpf is far.
05:56:22 <Bike> oh i like all that stuff to get a 32 bit int
05:56:46 <pikhq> This is the actual interface that it exports, not the official header.
05:56:56 <pikhq> The official header is an order of magnitude larger.
05:57:50 <pikhq> https://github.com/madler/zlib/blob/master/zlib.h
06:00:28 <Bike> The application can compare zlibVersion and ZLIB_VERSION for consistency. If the first character differs, the library code actually used is not compatible with the zlib.h header file used by the application. This check is automatically made by deflateInit and inflateInit.
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06:03:30 <pikhq> Yeah, zlib's a bit... special.
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06:32:05 <Bike> huh, i hd no idea half-precision floats exist
06:33:47 <Fiora> I think they're mainly for storange and less so calculation?
06:34:01 <Fiora> though that guess kinda comes from the fact that intel added functions to convert to/from FP16 but no arithmetic on them
06:34:08 <Fiora> s/functions/instructions/?
06:34:18 <Bike> that's what wikipedia said
06:34:23 <Bike> but opencl c has 'em
06:34:51 <Fiora> I wonder if GPUs have them as a thing.
06:35:47 <Bike> "The half data type can only be used to declare a pointer to a buffer that contains half values.
06:35:51 <Bike> so, yeah, storage only.
06:36:31 <Bike> you have to use builtins to get a real float out of em
06:36:43 <Bike> and do, like, arithmetic.
06:38:13 <Bike> and there are length three vectors. ok then!
06:39:36 <Bike> float4 f = (float4)((float2)(1.0f, 2.0f), (float2)(3.0f, 4.0f));
06:39:40 <Bike> i feel right at home.
06:41:02 <Bike> oh man there are arbitrary permutations of vectors. rad i guess
06:42:09 <Bike> x = (float16)(a.xxxx, b.xyz, c.xyz, d.xyz, a.yzw) // now x is four of a.x, then b, c, d, then a permuted a.
06:49:54 <Bike> "A divide by zero with integer types does not cause an exception but will result in an unspecified value." fuck the police
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07:24:10 <fizzie> I have a vague recollection some system somewhere had those as a built-in data type.
07:26:21 <zzo38> What programs would use 8-bit floats?
07:28:51 <fizzie> I can't think of an example offhand. http://www.mrob.com/pub/math/floatformats.html (see "Microfloats") points out that the IBM PC keyboard repeat rate is set using what's essentially a floating-point format.
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07:29:50 <lifthrasiir> μ-law also acts as a sort of a floating point type.
07:32:14 <fizzie> That's also mentioned on the page.
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08:13:56 <zzo38> I think it would be useful, if PuTTY would have an option which, if enabled, does something special with SCROLL LOCK. How is such a feature made suggested? What I wanted it to do is: If scroll lock is on, it does two things: [1] Disables the "reset scrollback" options. [2] Makes the up/down/pgup/pgdn keys to scroll the window instead of sending to the server.
08:14:34 <zzo38> Is it would seem useful to you, too?
08:17:02 <zzo38> Bike: Might it be better if it would be defined to instead mean, it is undefined whether integer division by zero will cause an exception or an unspecified result?
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08:56:35 <FireFly> Bike: yeah, GLSL also has the permutation thing. it's really useful when you're writing vector-intensive stuff
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09:22:52 <ais523_> public computer, no compose key :(
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09:30:40 <fizzie> `run unicode 'COMPOSITION SYMBOL' 'COMBINING ENCLOSING KEYCAP' # ais523_: There you go, a compose key.
09:30:59 <ais523_> fizzie: it doesn't render properly on this OS :-(
09:32:02 <fizzie> It renders quite badly in my terminal, too. (Mostly okay in the browser.)
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09:54:24 <ion> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/11/jury-newegg-infringes-spangenberg-patent-must-pay-2-3-million/
09:58:30 <fizzie> "The lawyers from both teams took in the verdict without emotion and shook hands following the verdict." "The weather shifted dramatically since the beginning of trial, and it was cold and rainy then." "Diffie looked the part of the eccentric genius, resplendent with his long white hair and beard. He spoke with a booming voice but carefully articulated manner; he was professorial but not ...
09:58:36 <fizzie> ... overbearing." That's a p. weird way of reporting.
09:58:43 <ion> fizzie: yeah
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13:27:50 <boily> quintopia: bontopia matin!
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13:42:50 * boily ties Bike and Frooxius together. “With their disconnection powers combined, may they be Present in this Channel and Not Leave!”
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13:49:50 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month.
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13:51:01 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$/ He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments./' wisdom/sgeo
13:51:14 <oerjan> i think the evidence is clear by now.
13:51:18 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
13:52:37 <boily> oerjan: are you writing down the SGSGS?
13:52:40 <Taneb> It is true that I am not elliott.
13:52:52 <Taneb> I have played the Rabbi in Fiddle orn the Roof
13:52:56 <boily> Strange and Great SGeo Saga.
13:53:17 <Taneb> I used to have two spare keyboards, but I have since thrown one out because it did not work
13:53:19 <oerjan> Taneb: i didn't hear you say any more about it, so i assume the latest auditions didn't go too well.
13:53:28 <Taneb> oerjan: didn't get any parts
13:53:38 <Taneb> Also I realised I really don't have the time
13:53:48 <boily> mechanical keyboards are proliferating in our workplace. mwah ah ah.
13:54:01 <Taneb> The gender thing I can't remember why, probably the kind of joke I make about myself
13:54:37 <Taneb> Someone sharing my surname is cited on the wikipedia page for d-modules
13:54:38 <oerjan> that's because one of the genders is amnesiosexual hth
13:54:44 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go.
13:54:55 <Taneb> When did the torus get there
13:55:31 <oerjan> sadly there is no way to find out unless you dare to poke into the murky depths of our hg browser.
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13:56:22 <boily> I have a vague feeling Taneb's torus is related to chess and pineapples...
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13:56:30 <Taneb> `? people who taneb is not
13:56:32 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
13:56:44 <Taneb> That is an exhaustive list
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13:57:12 <Taneb> Hmm, adding torus I think predates the pdf
13:57:33 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
13:57:45 <oerjan> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/b3ecbbf31355 <-- you definitely are amnesiosexual
13:57:48 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
13:58:29 <oerjan> oh right you keep adding that s
13:59:37 <oerjan> `learn Impomatic never did anything weird enough to get into this database.
14:00:07 <oerjan> `learn impomatic never did anything weird enough to get into this database.
14:00:44 <Taneb> <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, topologically, a torus is a torus (I think)
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14:01:37 <Taneb> In response to <Phantom_Hoover> "Topologically, an elliptic curve is a torus." dude
14:02:25 <boily> browsing the PDF sources, apparently Sgeo is also a wall.
14:04:38 <Taneb> Could one argue that FALSE is the first modern esolang?
14:06:08 <boily> modern? that'd imply we had a classical, a baroque, and a romantic esolanging periods.
14:06:27 <Taneb> boily: classical = P'', baroque = INTERCAL, romantic = Biota
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14:12:24 <Taneb> @ask ais523 May I "interview" you for an essay on the impact of Turing's paper On Computable Numbers?
14:18:39 <impomatic> Biota wasn't the first 2D programming language.
14:21:47 <impomatic> Mouse reminds me of FALSE and was quite a few years earlier. (I have a copy of Grogono's book)
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14:46:33 <metasepia> CYUL 261420Z 22012KT 12SM -SHSN BKN030 BKN050 OVC080 01/M04 A3017 RMK SC5SC1AC2 SLP217
14:47:10 <metasepia> ENVA 261420Z 25012KT 9999 VCSH BKN025 07/04 Q1011 TEMPO 25030G40KT RMK WIND 670FT 26017G30KT
14:50:30 <boily> here they are called «abris tempo» → http://www.abristempo.com/
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15:02:26 <HackEgo> realzies: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:06:12 <boily> quintopia: the package, it was received :D
15:06:35 * boily claps with small hands *CLACKACLACKACLACKACLACKACLACKA*
15:06:55 <oerjan> but but these packages were obviously destined to be eternally in transit!
15:07:15 <oerjan> you have doomed us all
15:07:40 <oerjan> boily: your hands sound suspiciously wooden
15:07:41 <boily> the Doom was already Sealed when Roujo and I met irl.
15:07:48 <boily> oerjan: plasticky.
15:07:58 <quintopia> oerjan: we can restore the balance by putting another package in transit asap
15:08:09 <oerjan> quintopia: ah, good thinking
15:09:20 <oerjan> i sense a disturbance in the force
15:10:26 <quintopia> someone else has suggested the world will end anyway due to the alignment of thanksgiving and the start of hanukkah
15:10:45 <oerjan> yes, clearly this has never happened before.
15:11:19 <oerjan> quintopia: maybe it will instead cause thanksgiving to last 8 times as long as usual.
15:12:17 <oerjan> this will _seem_ welcome, until they discover on the 3rd day that this does not extend to turkey supply.
15:12:49 <quintopia> thanksgiving leftovers always last well over a week
15:13:19 <boily> realzies: what brings you here?
15:13:42 <boily> oh. so were you already `relcomed?
15:13:53 <realzies> but I don't remember why I joined
15:13:59 <realzies> ah esoteric programming, sounded interesting
15:14:52 <boily> quintopia: here we have réveillon leftovers. a little bit later in the year, but just about the same: lots of meat and gravy and sauces and things that make you fat even if they had some fruits in them at some time.
15:15:50 <oerjan> "Jean-Baptiste Réveillon, (Paris, 1725 – Paris, 1811) was a French wallpaper manufacturer. Réveillon's career was an exemplary story of the self-made businessman in the Ancien Régime."
15:16:30 <oerjan> quintopia: if you look closely, you can see something missing...
15:16:33 <boily> oerjan: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9veillon_de_No%C3%ABl
15:17:52 * boily casts a nasty look over at fizzie. “I WANT MY FUNGOT FIX!”
15:18:34 <quintopia> "instant magique pour les enfants". yes please! <3 magic
15:19:44 <oerjan> boily: i note the cross-language links for that are generally like "christmas eve"
15:20:00 <quintopia> boily: it's probably good you got some time off. you seem a bit overly attached. this could be the sign of addiction
15:20:30 <oerjan> but the english wp also has Réveillon by itself
15:22:13 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know anything about polar representation of quaternions
15:22:26 <boily> quintopia: I can quit fungotting any time I want.
15:23:11 <oerjan> hm the picture in french wp is actually swedish christmas eve. by carl larsson, who is of course _the_ painter to use for such.
15:23:56 <boily> quintopia: as oerjan said, “no.”
15:26:48 <oerjan> ooh Réveillon made the paper for the montgolfier balloons
15:28:54 <oerjan> "His wine cellar, containing 2,000 bottles of wine, was pillaged and quickly consumed by the riotious mob. Réveillon and his family escaped by climbing a wall and fleeing to the nearby Bastille."
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15:43:04 <boily> fungot: hi there! (and nothing about my mother.)
15:43:04 <fungot> boily: yeah, it kinda is. :) must've been a burp. first time that's happened in a recent email he sent from think.com was in 1993.
15:45:04 <fungot> mrhmouse: it features dolph lundgren. nuff said. :) for me, then period fnord me like that before: mors said i suck. choose two. i'd rather use some sort of
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15:58:24 * boily cringes at the sight of that missspelling
15:58:45 <oerjan> the last u was note ven intended
16:00:10 <quintopia> it's the hardest word to spell ever, so...
16:01:00 <boily> YOUR RITED IT WELL.
16:01:35 <quintopia> it has too many vowels relative to consonants
16:01:37 * boily mutters to himself... «à cause que le monde ont de la misère tant que ça avec l'orthographe...»
16:02:05 <boily> the vowels are short!
16:04:24 <boily> hm. that reminds me it's been a long time since I've last disturbed Koen_ with my "horrible" accent :D
16:04:27 <oerjan> i think that's the only plausible simplification
16:04:52 <boily> oerjan: that'd be logicaler, but then you're going against the Académie Française of Décisions Stupides concerning la Langue Française.
16:06:23 <oerjan> boily: maybe someone could arrange to have the academie and the OQLF have an ... accident?
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16:33:36 <boily> oerjan: for the right price, I could.
16:33:46 <boily> (hey, people outside of Québec know about the OQLF! :D)
16:34:34 <oerjan> from this channel, no less
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16:47:16 <Slereah> Does the CPU automatically increment the instruction pointer with each instruction, and if so, what happens once the code reaches the end of the code segment (or addressable memory, even)
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16:52:36 <nooodl> i still haven't heard enough canadian french to imagine what boily's accent sounds like
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16:53:41 <Slereah> Quebecer accent is hilarious
16:53:44 <Slereah> At least to us french people
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16:56:30 <boily> nooodl: sample → http://www.radio-canada.ca/widgets/mediaconsole/medianet/6893298
16:57:29 <lambdabot> You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:58:12 <ais523> @tell Taneb I'm not opposed to the idea, but given that I've never actually read that paper, it may be a less informative paper interview than you expect
16:58:39 <ais523> a question that this channel has a decent chance of knowing the answer of
16:58:52 <ais523> is there a monad for which a >>= b is defined as a b?
16:58:57 <ais523> (and does it have a name?)
16:59:33 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think so, but that might inspire me
16:59:44 <ais523> I realised that something I did for work looked a lot like do-notation
16:59:46 <oerjan> shachaf's is the Identity monad.
16:59:52 <ais523> then tried to work out the monad it was the do notation for
17:00:29 <nooodl> well you'd have (a :: m p) and (b :: p -> m q) and (a >>= b :: m q)
17:00:48 <ais523> my do-notation looks something like "(a, b, c) <- x; (d,e) <- y a b; (f) <- z c d e"
17:00:58 <nooodl> the only application you can get outta there is "b a" where m is Identity
17:01:23 <ais523> which desugars into \q.x(\(a,b,c).y(\(d,e).z(\f.q)))
17:01:58 <shachaf> OK, maybe that's a continuation monad of some sort?
17:02:10 <oerjan> ais523: given that a >>= return = a for all monads, what would return be in yours?
17:02:23 <shachaf> Or trying to be one somehow.
17:02:38 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not sure, I just noticed the similarity to do-notation
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17:02:57 <ais523> which made me think there might be a monad in there somewhere
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17:03:39 <oerjan> you would need a return = a (with some newtype wrapping for the types to even work)
17:03:59 <ais523> perhaps a >>= b = a b is the wrong definition
17:04:13 <shachaf> I'm not sure I understand your desugaring.
17:04:29 <ais523> that seems a lot saner
17:05:44 <oerjan> now you need return x . b = b x
17:06:03 <ais523> wait, which way round does compose go?
17:06:26 <ais523> \x.(a >>= b) x = b(a(x))
17:06:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t1 -> t0' with actual type `Expr'
17:06:40 <lambdabot> The function `b' is applied to one argument,
17:06:49 <ais523> :t \b -> \a -> \x -> b(a(x))
17:06:50 <lambdabot> (t1 -> t) -> (t2 -> t1) -> t2 -> t
17:07:06 <ais523> OK, then (>>=) = flip (.)
17:07:14 <ais523> sorry for being so bad at Haskell :-(
17:07:25 <shachaf> ais523: What happens to the "y a b" and "z c d e" in your desugaring?
17:08:29 <ais523> it produces \q->x(\(a,b,c)->(y a b)(\(d,e)->(z c d e))(\f->q)))
17:08:59 <ais523> apologies for the gratuitous Verity
17:09:10 <ais523> I'll try to remember that Haskell uses -> not . in its lambdas
17:09:35 <shachaf> I'm not sure I see how that "q" thing is working.
17:09:36 <oerjan> ais523: i think you still have some parentheses wrong there, but otherwise it's the Cont monad.
17:09:49 <ais523> I can believe that this is Cont
17:10:29 <ais523> the application for this is that I'm trying to write a linker
17:10:40 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
17:10:46 <lambdabot> Source not found. You untyped fool!
17:10:56 <lambdabot> m >>= k = Cont $ \c -> runCont m $ \a -> runCont (k a) c
17:11:12 <shachaf> @djinn-add type Contt r a = (a -> r) -> r
17:11:16 <ais523> that links together various libraries which are basically just open terms
17:11:21 <oerjan> int-e: please fix @src to be parenthesis-insensitive thx
17:11:27 <shachaf> @djinn Contt r a -> (a -> Contt r b) -> Contt r b
17:11:50 <oerjan> @tell int-e please fix @src to be parenthesis-insensitive thx
17:12:57 <oerjan> ais523: oh your \q is actually correct
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17:13:29 <quintopia> why don't we ever get to talk to keymaker
17:13:30 <ais523> oerjan: I thought it would be, otherwise I don't see how >>= would be associative
17:13:41 <shachaf> Oh, another reason it didn't make sense is that you don't have a ... at the end of the do block.
17:13:51 <shachaf> You don't actually mean a lone "q" at the end there, I guess.
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17:14:21 <ais523> I don't have a lone \q at the start either, though
17:14:55 <oerjan> <quintopia> why don't we ever get to talk to keymaker <-- i don't think he uses irc?
17:15:07 <shachaf> A do block can't end on a <-, anyway.
17:17:10 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen output ever
17:17:20 <HackEgo> #! /usr/bin/env perl \ ($n,$e)=split /\s+/, join(" ",@ARGV); $n=~s/ *$//; $c="ls -r /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt"; $c.=" | head -n 30" unless $e eq "ever"; @f=split /\s+/, `$c`; for $f (@f) { open F,"<$f"; @l=grep(/^..:..:..: <$n>/i,<F>); close F; if (@l) { $b=$f; $b=~s#.*/(.*?).txt#$1#; print "$b $l[-1]"; exit 1; } } print $e eq "ever
17:17:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/seen
17:17:36 <quintopia> but you're not *really* a part of the community if you're not in the channel RIGHT
17:18:18 <oerjan> it's not supposed to give no output if it doesn't find somewhere, so it's probably timing out
17:18:39 <oerjan> which of course means he hasn't been here in a _long_ time.
17:18:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28419
17:19:25 <oerjan> heh he was here in 2004
17:19:59 <oerjan> `pastelogs keymaker has
17:20:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32253
17:20:37 <quintopia> i was not here in 2004. i didn't even create spiral until 2004.
17:21:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelogs
17:21:52 <quintopia> so maybe that was when keymaker came into existence
17:21:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelog
17:22:30 <oerjan> the stopping is written into the pastelogs program.
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17:24:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20577
17:24:53 <quintopia> so, anyway speaking of keymaker, Etre really is a tour de force in my opinion. there couldn't have been an easier lang to implement in SELECT.
17:25:57 * quintopia foresees a future in which all new imperative tape languages are reduced from Etre rather than BF
17:28:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: that's irrelevant to TC-ness, boily).
17:28:53 <ais523> quintopia: it's necessary for BF-completeness
17:28:57 <ais523> which is a real, interesting category
17:29:33 <ais523> fwiw, if I have a lang that's really /really/ eso and want to prove it TC, then cyclic tag tends to be easiest
17:31:38 <ais523> BCT is a specific syntax for cyclic tag
17:31:58 <ais523> just like you can invent a syntax for Turing machines, say
17:32:13 <ais523> but Turing machines are a concept that exists independent of syntax
17:32:26 <quintopia> is it? i thought it was just specifying the alphabet was 10 and a specific rule for when to apply the production
17:33:13 <ais523> cyclic tag always has an alphabet of two symbols
17:33:22 <ais523> it's the original tag that can have more
17:33:31 <quintopia> cyclic tag would have been harder to implement than etre for SELECT.
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17:34:35 <ais523> hmm, really? that surprises me
17:35:16 <ais523> etre needs an extendable tape, whereas cyclic tag needs a queue, which mostly uses the same structure but doesn't need an internal pointer
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17:36:26 <quintopia> but an infinite tape is already a feature in SELECT
17:37:12 -!- impomatic has left.
17:37:23 <quintopia> as it is in most imperative tape languages
17:44:03 <ais523> yeah but I consider those uninteresting :-)
17:45:31 <quintopia> they don't have to be uninteresting. depends on what your goals are
17:46:40 <quintopia> speaking of which, i came up with a new lang. partially. basically it's oklopol's minigolf idea in 3D. interesting because i have a TC proof.
17:46:42 <boily> something I haven't seen yet: a Game of Life where cells are fragments of a 2D esolang.
17:47:14 <quintopia> (although i am not trying to encode anything in the decimal digits)
17:49:12 <boily> quintopia: after reimplementating metasepia.
17:49:42 <quintopia> boily: inventing a languabe is not nearly so time-consuming as implementing *anything*
17:50:52 <fizzie> Eat a languava, it's healthy.
17:50:56 <boily> `run echo 'Languabes are edible and fun. They provide a quick implementation energy boost!' >wisdom/languabe
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17:55:18 <shachaf> Did you figure out your monad?
17:57:56 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, it was Cont
17:58:49 <shachaf> Codensity is even better, of course.
18:16:15 <ais523> btw, today I had a complaint that Verity wasn't sexp-based, making it harder to implement a macro syste
18:16:29 <ais523> my conclusion for this is that the world generally needs better ways to manipulate parse trees
18:16:50 <Bike> @tell zzo38 i don't think opencl c even has provisions for exceptions
18:17:22 <ais523> how would you implement an exception happening in some threads and not others?
18:17:45 <ais523> even if statements are a little tricky to implement at anything finer-grained than the warp level
18:18:08 <ais523> closest you can get is to do the calculations anyway and just not store the data anywhere
18:18:44 <ais523> incidentally, Don Knuth apparently uses this technique when writing INTERCAL
18:19:04 <ais523> not because it's necessary, but because he finds it easier than actually writing a control flow statement
18:22:07 <quintopia> i like don. he seems like a p cool guy.
18:22:09 <boily> fungot: how many warps do you support?
18:22:09 <fungot> boily: hmm. when was it pebble and co surge?
18:22:49 <boily> fungot: pebbles are smart watches. the co-everything are propagated by Nutty Categoricists.
18:22:50 <fungot> boily: forth is worth learning ( for chicken at least behaves much like emacs lisp to me. all you need is
18:23:37 <ais523> quintopia: his secretary has actually emailed me, because esr CCed me on an email to him and it went reply-all from then on
18:23:49 <ais523> he was commissioning a new version of C-INTERCAL
18:23:54 <ais523> some day, we may find out why
18:23:56 <shachaf> his secretary has emailed me also
18:24:42 <quintopia> ais523: why is a new version necessary? is the spec changing?
18:25:05 <ais523> quintopia: he just wanted a bugfix release, it seems
18:25:14 <shachaf> i was accidentally removed from the bank of san serriffe page
18:25:15 <ais523> just to make sure everything was up to date
18:25:50 <ais523> yes, we find them every now and then
18:26:20 <ais523> here's a particularly nasty one I fixed a couple of months ago: https://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/commit/a905156af4fd2ab88036f59c13321081bd203d47
18:32:38 <ais523> even better, the bug was in the build system so you don't need to know any INTERCAL to understand it
18:35:43 <ais523> quintopia: ick is the Intercal compiler library
18:35:49 <ais523> and pit is the directory containing the testsuite
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18:37:24 <boily> `relcome activ_Trinidad
18:37:27 <HackEgo> activ_Trinidad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:37:46 <HackEgo> activ_Trinidad: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.ne
18:37:49 <Slereah> How many bots are around nowadays
18:38:12 -!- nisstyre has joined.
18:38:43 <nooodl> where is the bot prefix list again
18:38:58 <mrhmouse> nooodl: there's a bot prefix list?
18:39:39 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
18:40:02 <quintopia> (if things were sane, it would be accessible by just saying "prefices" on its own line without any prefix)
18:40:40 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen blsqbot ever
18:40:45 <HackEgo> 2013-03-08 14:18:29: <blsqbot> Pong!
18:44:10 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
18:44:14 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
18:44:54 <mrhmouse> Doesn't lambdabot also respond to > ?
18:45:30 <fizzie> It's not quite the same sort of prefix, but admittedly it is a kind of a prefix.
18:45:46 <mrhmouse> well, I mean, it invokes lambdabot
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18:46:07 <fizzie> lambdabot: You're such a prefix-hog.
18:46:32 -!- activ_Trinidad has joined.
18:46:35 <mrhmouse> at least it doesn't respond to its name
18:46:43 <shachaf> @pinky Are you thinking what fizzie is thinking?
18:46:43 <lambdabot> But where will we find an open tattoo parlor at this time of night?
18:46:55 <fizzie> I don't think I'm thinking the same.
18:46:56 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . 1337 ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s bf bid botsnack bouvier brain bug check choice-add choose cide clear-messages clear-topic compose define dequeue-topic devils dice dict-help djinn djinn-add djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval faq farber
18:46:56 <lambdabot> flush foldoc forget fortune free freshname gazetteer get-shapr get-topic ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage haskellers help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect irc-password jargon join karma karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind l33t learn leave leet let list listall listchans listmodules
18:46:56 <lambdabot> listservers localtime localtime-reply messages messages-loud messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline palomer part paste ping pinky pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pop-topic pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices push-topic queue-topic quit quote rc
18:46:56 <lambdabot> reconnect remember repoint roll run sequence set-topic shift-topic shootout show slap smack spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless unshift-topic uptime url v vera version vote what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzo
18:47:02 <quintopia> to anyone good at hackego: the bienvenido message drops a "t" at the end
18:47:18 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
18:47:30 <shachaf> @help yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
18:49:03 <lambdabot> Look and Say sequence: describe the previous term! (method A - initial term ...
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18:50:04 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:50:16 <lambdabot> ["(++)","ConfusedWithVixenSituation","FlavaOfJRuby","Prelude-(.)?","best-programming-language","best-spoken-language","food","funniest-thing-in-the-whole-world","naming","nethack","president","prove->","remove@src","sleep"]
18:50:33 <shachaf> @poll-result funniest-thing-in-the-whole-world
18:50:33 <lambdabot> Poll results for funniest-thing-in-the-whole-world (Open): unintentionally-funny-situations=1, Poles=1
18:50:50 <lambdabot> Poll results for nethack (Open): Val_Dwa_Fem_Law=1, Wiz_Elf_Mal_Cha=1
18:51:03 <ais523> that wizard should be a gnome :-(
18:51:26 <fizzie> @poll-result best-spoken-language
18:51:26 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): magyar=3, Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=2, Manx=1, norwegian=8
18:51:26 <ais523> shachaf: you get to play neutral
18:51:29 <ais523> and their caps are easily high enough
18:51:31 <shachaf> I always played Wiz_Elf_Mal_Cha back in the day.
18:51:36 <ais523> and they're not human, which is the really important thing
18:51:41 <fizzie> Wow, that's quite a win for Polish.
18:51:45 <shachaf> What's the advantage of being neutral?
18:51:59 <ais523> no chaotic disadvantages, and you get the best artifact selection
18:52:24 <shachaf> You can get Magicbane and the quest artifact anyway.
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18:52:45 <shachaf> What are the chaotic disadvantages?
18:52:55 <shachaf> And the artifact advantages?
18:53:01 <shachaf> (I haven't played NetHack in quite a while.)
18:54:06 <ais523> artifact advantages: there is 1 useful lawful artifact and basically 0 useful chaotic artifacts (best is the MKoT, which isn't really good)
18:54:13 <ais523> also the lawful artifact's only really good on speedruns
18:54:18 <ais523> there are like 5 or 6 viable neutral artifacts
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18:54:46 <ais523> chaotic disadvantages (and advantages) are all minor but there are a lot of them
18:54:51 <ais523> quite a lot to keep in track
18:54:58 <ais523> god mollification is a big one, it's harder for chaotics
18:55:33 <shachaf> I remember there being less of a penalty for killing shopkeepers, or something.
18:56:18 <ais523> yeah, but if you're powerful enough to kill the shopkeeper, the penalty mostly doesn't matter anyway
18:56:42 <shachaf> Maybe I should play NetHack 4.
18:57:43 <ais523> shachaf: you might want to wait a couple of weeks, we're working on a stable version atm
18:58:12 <Slereah> I'm trying to do stuff with the stack, but the assembler bitches when I do this :
18:58:30 <Slereah> Is it a syntax problem or can you not move the stack pointer?
18:58:41 <shachaf> I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.
18:58:44 <ais523> what's the comma after 2 for
18:58:55 <shachaf> what's the mov after the comma for
18:59:12 <Slereah> I just wanted to paste it here in one line
18:59:40 <Slereah> I get "reserved word used as symbol"
19:00:13 <ais523> I was wondering whether derefencing sp is allowed, but it probably is due to omit-frame-pointer
19:00:34 <Slereah> for mov dx, [sp], no idea which part
19:00:42 <shachaf> Yes, it should be fine (at least on 32-bit x86?).
19:00:44 <shachaf> I don't know Intel syntax very well.
19:02:16 <shachaf> Do you need to specify "dword" or something?
19:04:35 <shachaf> I guess it'd be "word" or whatever it's called. But I don't think that's the issue.
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19:06:52 <Slereah> Right, I think addresses are 4 bytes
19:07:05 <shachaf> Why are you using sp, then?
19:07:18 <Slereah> Just looking at the content of the stack
19:08:45 <quintopia> if he had esp, he'd already know the answer
19:08:53 <quintopia> he'd just read some intel guru's mind
19:08:58 <Slereah> Yes, but when you use it in an address, it points to a 4 bytes object, no?
19:09:20 <Slereah> Which I guess is the problem
19:09:49 <Slereah> So it would either be mov edx,[sp] or mov dx, byte ptr [sp], I guess
19:14:38 <kmc> you shouldn't need "word ptr" for "mov dx, [sp]" because the size is known from the destination being a 16-bit register
19:15:29 <kmc> and I thought Slereah is doing 16-bit programmin'
19:15:52 <shachaf> I thought so too, but in that case what's the "addresses are 4 bytes" deal?
19:15:59 <kmc> wrongness?
19:16:33 <Slereah> Then I don't know the problem
19:16:52 <kmc> I think maybe [sp] addressing modes just don't exist in 16-bit
19:17:03 <kmc> does the code assemble if you change sp to another register?
19:17:34 <kmc> 16-bit x86 is less orthogonal than the newer versions; it's more of a thing that ax is the "accumulator" and bx is the "base" and such
19:17:42 <kmc> this affects what you can do with them
19:17:53 <shachaf> Oh, looks like that's right.
19:18:10 <Slereah> Maybe flat assembler doesn't use []
19:18:19 <shachaf> I tried getting this working here and it didn't work with mov edx,[esp] either.
19:18:31 <shachaf> But I think that was an issue with GNU as's Intel mode or something.
19:18:44 <shachaf> Because I did manage to get code that disassembled to that.
19:18:49 <Slereah> So I guess sp is the problem
19:18:58 <Slereah> Is there a way to get the value of the stack pointer?
19:19:10 <kmc> Slereah: yeah, you can use bp, si, di, bx as pointers, but maybe not the other regs in 16-bit mode
19:19:31 <kmc> Slereah: mov ax, sp
19:19:46 <Slereah> So I guess what I want is like
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19:21:35 <Slereah> Any less circuitous way to get a value from the stack without popping it?
19:22:16 <kmc> you could just pop and then sub sp, 2 ;P
19:22:35 <shachaf> I think that's probably more circuitous, though.
19:22:43 <Slereah> Wouldn't I need add sp, 2?
19:22:47 <Slereah> To put the pointer back up?
19:22:55 <kmc> the stack grows towards smaller addresses
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19:23:12 <kmc> this confuses roughly everyone at some point
19:23:16 <Slereah> I guess both are as circuitous
19:23:56 <shachaf> how did i find out all these things
19:24:03 <shachaf> probably by looking at disassembled code
19:24:34 <Slereah> I wish assembly was a bit less stringent with its functiond
19:24:44 <Slereah> Just treating all registers the same way
19:24:48 <Slereah> Except for specific functions
19:24:57 <shachaf> why are you writing 16-bit x86
19:25:02 <kmc> well, the newer versions of x86 are more like that
19:25:08 <kmc> and other architectures even moreso
19:25:27 <kmc> in the original ARM architecture, even the instruction pointer is an ordinary register that can be used as an operand for anything else
19:25:38 <kmc> Slereah: it does, however you'd need to write the code to switch to 32-bit mode yourself, which is gross
19:25:45 <kmc> or hook into some "dos extender"
19:25:54 <Slereah> I'll wait to be a bit more experimented first
19:25:57 <kmc> you could just write 32-bit Linux programs in assembly instead
19:26:01 <kmc> 16-bit is fun
19:26:06 <kmc> you can write a boot sector graphics demo :)
19:26:17 <Slereah> I find it weird that they always say "you can't change the IP!" everywhere
19:26:24 <Slereah> But JMP is basically mov ip
19:27:01 <kmc> you can even do "jmp [some_addr]" which is like "mov ip, [some_addr]"
19:27:03 <kmc> or "jmp ax"
19:27:25 <shachaf> there's even conditional move into ip
19:27:30 <ais523> you can actually do a mov ip on a PIC, but the jmp is more efficient because there are only two registers you can assign a constant to, and one of them's the IP
19:28:07 <Slereah> Can I move the IP in such a way that the variables are interpreted as functions?
19:28:41 <Slereah> 123456 is [opcode 12] 34 56
19:28:50 -!- muskrat has joined.
19:28:53 <Slereah> And then it reads as [opcode 34] 56
19:29:07 <ais523> sometimes that's used for golfing, or obfuscatoin
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19:39:55 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
19:40:02 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
19:40:42 <boily> `peanut-butter-fjelly-list
19:40:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: peanut-butter-fjelly-list: not found
19:41:12 <shachaf> You would've gotten higher-quality updates, and earlier.
19:45:07 <kmc> _LIBCPP_ALWAYS_INLINE _LIBCPP_CONSTEXPR operator int __nat::*() const {return 0;}
19:45:30 <ais523> I can see why that was wanted always inline
19:45:35 <ais523> and it looks like an excellent candidate for constexpr
19:45:54 * kmc can't parse operator int __nat::*()
19:46:05 <kmc> "operator int" is a fine name for a function
19:46:08 <ais523> yeah, constexpr is useful in case you want to parse something in terms of it
19:46:18 <ais523> kmc: isn't that the name of the "(int)" cast that casts things to int?
19:46:28 <kmc> yeah but what's the "__nat::*()" doing
19:47:12 <ais523> gah, my attempted fix to the random compose key breakages didn't help
19:47:40 <kmc> shachaf: it's from libc++ i guess
19:47:45 <kmc> "it's from compiler errors"
19:47:51 <ais523> perhaps it's an int*, with a weird order
19:48:18 <Slereah> Man the part that's really gonna be shitty is when I'll have to learn protected mode
19:48:25 <Slereah> Can't understand much so far
19:48:34 <shachaf> Oh, https://llvm.org/viewvc/llvm-project/libcxx/trunk/include/cstddef?revision=111750&pathrev=113270 clears up a bit about it, maybe.
19:48:53 <kmc> Slereah: writing ordinary userspace code to run under a typical protected mode OS is nice and simple
19:49:05 <kmc> Slereah: putting the CPU into protected mode yourself, i.e. writing a protected mode OS, is not simple
19:49:34 <Slereah> I can't seem to quite grasp it
19:49:39 <kmc> what about it
19:50:26 <Slereah> The global descriptor table, I guess
19:50:49 <kmc> the basic thing is that in real mode, the segment selector registers (cs ds es ss fs gs) are just a value that gets multiplied by 16 and added to your address, but in protected mode they are indexes into one of these descriptor tables
19:51:08 <kmc> each entry ("segment descriptor") in the descriptor table describes a segment
19:51:08 <Slereah> But how do you fill these tables
19:51:21 <kmc> they live in memory
19:51:34 <shachaf> What is the type "int T::*"?
19:51:39 <Slereah> And why does the code even have overlapping segments?
19:51:49 <kmc> you just build those structures in memory and then use the "sgdt" instruction to set the global descriptor table base
19:52:26 <kmc> Slereah: what about it's weird?
19:52:28 <kmc> or what do you mean
19:52:51 <fizzie> (It's like, LGDT loads the GDT register from memory, and SGDT stores it into memory, like other L/S pairs.)
19:53:07 <Slereah> Why aren't the address built as DS * 1000h + DI instead of * 10h
19:53:21 <kmc> you're back to real mode now
19:53:42 <Slereah> I guess what I'm asking is, why did they even need protected mode to access all memory
19:54:06 <kmc> because real mode had already been defined that way
19:54:10 <kmc> but I think I can explain why, too
19:54:34 <kmc> basically it's handy for a kind of position independent code
19:54:36 <fizzie> shachaf: "ptr-operator: * cv-qualifier-seq_opt | & | ::_opt nested-name-specifier * cv-qualifier-seq_opt" is part of the C++ declarator syntax, but I can't quite figure out what it means.
19:54:50 <kmc> your code doesn't need to know where it lives in physical memory, as long as CS is properly initialized when it runs
19:55:40 <Slereah> Yes, but in that case, why not let DI or whatever offset run the full course of the segment
19:56:00 <Slereah> Sure, but then you get overlap
19:56:08 <kmc> a "segment" in the real mode context is just 2^16 consecutive bytes
19:56:20 <kmc> with 16-byte alignment
19:56:49 <kmc> if you're adjusting CS to relocate code then you want it to be *10h so that you can put it on any 16-byte-aligned address
19:57:08 <kmc> if it were *10000h then you could only put it at one of 16 different points
19:57:15 <kmc> Slereah: yes, meaning the address is a multiple of 16
19:57:40 <kmc> (one of 16 different points, assuming the physical address size is still 20 bits)
19:58:19 <Slereah> So does the protected mode allow you 2^32 addresses by having the two address arguments not overlap?
19:58:28 <shachaf> template <class _Tp, class _Up>
19:58:28 <shachaf> operator _Tp _Up::* () const {return 0;}
19:58:28 <Slereah> (And be indexed by a table as a nicety)
19:59:09 <fizzie> shachaf: Actually, are you sure operator int __nat::*() const {return 0;} isn't just the same as int __nat::operator *() const { return 0; } ?
19:59:42 <fizzie> As in, an overload for the unary * with a return type of int.
19:59:53 <kmc> Slereah: well, firstly, let's ignore the 286's weirdo 16-bit protected mode
20:00:06 <shachaf> fizzie: Yes, because it gives a different error message.
20:00:20 <kmc> in that case, "protected mode" also means "32-bit mode", and the base specified in a segment descriptor is 32 bits
20:00:28 <kmc> so they still overlap... 32-bit base plus 32-bit pointer
20:00:50 <Slereah> Backward compatibility is nice but damn, you have to drag some shit
20:00:52 <kmc> in fact there's no multiply now
20:01:12 <kmc> i mean this overlapping isn't backwards compat though
20:01:17 <kmc> it's a totally different CPU mode
20:01:25 <Slereah> Yeah, but the fact that real mode is still around
20:01:43 <Slereah> And still being real mode in 16 bits
20:01:46 <kmc> not only that but there's a new "Virtual 8086" mode in the 386 which lets you run real mode code within a protected mode OS
20:01:55 <Slereah> Apparently there's a long mode with 64 bits registers
20:01:59 <kmc> that's right
20:02:06 <kmc> that's x86-64 i.e. amd64
20:02:09 <Slereah> And yet the CPU still has to drag around the 16 bits mode
20:02:15 <Slereah> Like some old grmapa in a wheelchair
20:02:31 <kmc> at least with EFI you don't need to write 16-bit code when you write an OS, anymore
20:03:00 <Slereah> Are there any CPUs that don't have backward compatibility issues like that?
20:03:06 <Slereah> And are just servicable on their own
20:03:18 <kmc> non-x86 CPUs
20:03:20 <tertu> i wonder to what extent real mode is basically a complete 8086
20:03:29 <kmc> like, Alpha was 64-bit from the beginning
20:04:01 <kmc> i don't know if there are (say) MIPS64 or AArch64 (64-bit ARM) chips that only run in those modes
20:04:04 <kmc> i expect not
20:04:33 <kmc> if you're putting a soft MIPS64 in your FPGA, you probably don't want to waste FPGA resources on compat modes
20:04:38 <kmc> so I bet you can disable them for that
20:04:56 <tertu> Intel did make a 386 or two that could only run in 32-bit protected mode, but nothing like that since then
20:05:10 <kmc> and anyway MIPS and ARM and PowerPC don't have any legacy 16-bit mode like x86 has
20:05:13 <Slereah> I wonder how far back the compatibility extends
20:05:19 <kmc> tertu: oh, interesting! do you have some info on that?
20:05:29 <Slereah> Like could you still install the old DOS on modern CPUs
20:05:50 <tertu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80376
20:05:57 <tertu> yeah DOS runs on modern cpus
20:06:06 <tertu> compatibility goes back to the 8086
20:06:12 <kmc> tertu: nice
20:06:22 <tertu> try sticking a freedos boot cd in your computer, it'll work and that's all real mode code
20:06:23 <kmc> i'm always interested in non-PC-compatible x86 platforms
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20:07:08 <Slereah> One day we will have quantum computers and they will have a fucking 16 qbit mode
20:07:29 <Slereah> There's gonna be 16 atoms just there to run the DOS
20:07:41 <tertu> yeah I like seeing the x86 used in non-pc things
20:07:53 <boily> (A)bort, (R)etry, (D)o both
20:07:59 <tertu> nowadays the chips are so tied to being pcs though
20:08:08 <kmc> the OLPC XO-1 is an x86 platform with OpenFirmware
20:08:59 <Slereah> I wish there were quantum computers out by now
20:09:03 <tertu> at some point somebody's going to just go fuck ISA, fuck all this 80s legacy shit
20:09:10 <Slereah> I could at least use my half quantum physics half software engineering diploma
20:09:19 <kmc> the 80s are here to stay man
20:09:21 <Slereah> I wonder what quantum assembly looks like
20:09:36 <kmc> cool you have a quantum physics diploma?
20:09:38 <impomatic> There's a quantum version of Core War
20:09:41 <tertu> right now i think quantum computers work by physically arranging bits somehow
20:09:50 <tertu> like they're at the eniac stages
20:09:55 <shachaf> fizzie: Oh, I think it's a member pointer.
20:10:17 <tertu> yeah but no stored program
20:10:20 <tertu> you had to wire it in
20:10:21 <Slereah> Or did they recode it by rewiring?
20:10:31 <tertu> eventually they hacked it up to support stored programs though
20:10:58 <fizzie> shachaf: I had just arrived at that same conclusion.
20:11:00 <tertu> but that was after other computers that actually supported it from the start were built
20:11:02 <boily> in the future, we'll have holographic cubes. (mind you, those will be 80-column cubes, EBCDIC)
20:11:22 <Slereah> http://arxiv.org/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0201/0201082.pdf
20:11:35 <Slereah> I want to put that on my resume
20:11:47 <Slereah> I am an expert in quantum COBOL
20:11:52 <kmc> shachaf: ?
20:11:57 <fizzie> shachaf: In retrospect, I guess that should've been pretty obvious, and I thought of it, but then for some reason discarded the idea.
20:12:05 <impomatic> Quantum Core War is described here http://www.freelogy.org/wiki/Coreworld_QTAAS
20:12:05 <Slereah> Imagine the esolangs you could do
20:12:31 <shachaf> kmc: It's pointer-to-member syntax.
20:12:36 <shachaf> E.g. http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/comphelp/v8v101/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.xlcpp8a.doc%2Flanguage%2Fref%2Fcplr034.htm
20:12:43 <boily> in a world... saturated with quantum brainfuck derivatives... a young boy is about to discover his destiny...
20:13:09 <kmc> shachaf: yeah i thought it might be
20:13:10 <fizzie> So, a conversion operator into a pointer-to-int-member-of-__nat.
20:13:20 <kmc> but couldn't make it fit
20:13:33 <tertu> also for anybody who knows modern x86 architecture: do individual PCIX devices get assigned IO ports still
20:13:43 <kmc> but what fizzie said makes sense
20:13:46 <kmc> and is also terrifying
20:14:03 <boily> hm? I fail to see the terror in fizzie's utterances.
20:14:29 <fizzie> boily: Then you've been C++-infected. We're going to have to put you out, sorry.
20:15:04 <kmc> how i learned to stop worrying and love c++
20:16:09 <boily> fizzie: oh well. my only regret is to not have eaten as much sushi as I would have liked.
20:17:17 <Slereah> I wonder how close is a commercially available quantum CPU
20:17:29 <kmc> there's that one company which claims to sell a quantum computer
20:17:32 <kmc> but people think it's bullshit maybe
20:17:48 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Wave_Systems
20:18:15 <kmc> it might be more of a special purpose device for quantum annealing, and not something which can implement an arbitrary quantum circuit
20:19:27 <boily> can we emulate quantomputing on regular hardware?
20:19:42 <Slereah> It's a pretty old result, actually
20:19:55 <Slereah> Probabilistic Turing machines have the same power as regular Turing machines
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20:20:36 <Slereah> Either by emulating all possible outputs, or if you can cheat, pseudo randum generator
20:21:21 <kmc> i don't think doing it with a PRNG is satisfactory for the computability-theoretic result
20:21:27 <kmc> but people do things like that in complexity theory
20:22:07 <kmc> if you can invent a PRNG which no poly-time algo can distinguish from true randomness, then you've proven BPP = P
20:22:12 <kmc> this is called derandomization
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20:22:23 <Slereah_> Like, if you have QUANTUM BRAINFUCK
20:22:29 <Slereah_> If there's a probability popping up
20:22:42 <Slereah_> And work on the two tapes with the program
20:22:43 <kmc> of course it's not known whether BPP = P; nobody has been able to do this yet
20:22:49 <ais523> why do so many people not understand how quantum computers work
20:22:55 <ais523> kmc: does P = NP iply that?
20:23:06 <kmc> ais523: yes, BPP is contained in NP
20:23:19 <kmc> Slereah_: https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/Complexity_Zoo:B#bpp
20:23:44 <kmc> that definition of BPP actually doesn't refer to "randomness" per se
20:23:49 <kmc> and makes it more obvious that BPP is in NP
20:24:13 <kmc> but basically, BPP is the class of problems that can be solved efficiently on a TM if you have randomness
20:24:41 <kmc> the probability of a wrong answer needs to be sufficiently far from 1/2 that you can run the machine n times to get an O(2^n) reduction in the error rate
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20:25:23 <Taneb> ais523, as the person credited with the proof of the universality of Wolfram's 2-3 machine, how important do you think it is to prove or disprove the Turing-completeness of things?
20:25:38 <Slereah_> He has a sick sexual fetish for it
20:26:38 <ais523> Taneb: I think it's fun, but except when you're trying to design a sandbox or similar intentionally sub-TC system, it's less practically important than the question of whether it can run practically useful programs in a reasonable amount of time
20:27:26 <kmc> ais523: I think people misunderstand quantum computers because there are a lot of appealing but false analogies to classical computers, and because quantum mechanics is fucking weird
20:27:37 <ais523> elliott: I'm using Helvetica for parts of my thesis, but it keeps giving me the uncanny valley effect because it's not Arial
20:27:43 <ais523> like, it's more perfect, but it seems wrong as a result
20:27:47 <kmc> and maybe a little bit of the "programmers are experts at everything and can work anything out from first principles" bias
20:27:47 <Slereah_> I don't think QM is *that* relevant to quantum computing
20:28:01 <Slereah_> Basically it's just the state superposition that is relevant to it
20:28:09 <kmc> and measurement
20:28:20 <ais523> and the fact that you can rotate probabilities
20:29:15 <Slereah_> The SUPERTURING computer designs
20:29:21 <Slereah_> They will never be fucking built
20:29:21 <ais523> actually rotating probabilities is probably the weirdest part, it's necessary for any sort of understanding of how quantum computers work
20:29:25 <ais523> and yet it intuitively makes no sense
20:29:43 <Slereah_> What is the probability rotation in quantum terms?
20:29:51 <kmc> the state of a QC isn't directly made of probabilities either
20:30:30 <ais523> Slereah_: well probabilities of things in quantum mechanics are given by (possibly entangled) phasors
20:30:35 <ais523> the probability is the square of the length of the phasor
20:30:42 <ais523> and the phasors can be rotated so that probabilities cancel out
20:31:13 <Slereah_> Is that QC talk for "Hilbert space vector"
20:31:19 <ais523> the aim of a quantum computer program is to start with a random value, then entangle the phasors in such a way that the ones for the incorrect results cancel out
20:31:31 <ais523> giving you a high chance of getting the correct answer
20:31:36 <ais523> and they're basically just vectors in the plane
20:31:39 <kmc> entangle the phasors! detach the saucer section!
20:31:41 <ais523> capped at a maximum length of 1
20:33:53 <boily> if I get a quantum computer, will I be able to go on Facebook?
20:34:17 <Slereah_> Oh, and there's no JMP in quantum assembly
20:34:25 <fizzie> Is that the one where you can be in multiple relationship statii at once?
20:34:36 <kmc> that would be convenient
20:34:41 <shachaf> where did the second 'i' come from
20:34:56 <ais523> shachaf: it's fun to pronounce
20:35:10 <shachaf> yes, but does it make sense
20:35:17 <ais523> although the second declension male plural would be stati because the original word is status not statius
20:35:24 <ais523> and I'm not sure it's a second declension male word in the first place
20:35:27 <kmc> i think molecular orbitals are a better analogy for poly relationships, though
20:35:30 <kmc> delocalized pi bonds
20:35:42 <fizzie> It's probably an incorrect Latin plural, I don't know any Latin.
20:35:52 <shachaf> i've seen it for words like "radius" but that has an 'i' already
20:35:52 <kmc> might have something to do with the fact that i'm dating a physical chemist (or chemical physicist?) by education
20:36:32 <shachaf> and for words like hawaius
20:36:54 <boily> esotericians' relationships are as weird as the languages they create.
20:37:15 <ais523> kmc: you're educated to date specific people?
20:38:08 <Slereah_> What esolang is your relationship like
20:38:15 <kmc> boily: i haven't even created any esolangs yet
20:38:19 <fizzie> shachaf: Fun fact: individual characters of ASCII are called "ascius".
20:38:28 <kmc> although "x86 with no registers" probably counts, once I write that up
20:38:47 <Slereah_> How do you do x86 with no registers
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20:38:58 <Slereah_> Are there any instructions that use no registers?
20:39:01 <kmc> Slereah_: i'll send you a link when it's done
20:39:19 <kmc> mov dword ptr [some_addr], 1234
20:39:22 <kmc> add dword ptr [some_addr], 1234
20:39:27 <kmc> jmp [some_addr]
20:39:31 <kmc> these are the main tools
20:39:37 <shachaf> `learn ascii is the plural of ascius
20:39:50 <kmc> plus self-modifying code
20:40:01 <kmc> but it's cheating to modify an instruction into one that uses registers
20:40:22 <kmc> I just modify the address and immediate operands of those instructions
20:40:24 <Slereah_> Esolangs are all about cheating
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20:40:48 <kmc> I wanted to define a legitimately difficult subset and then work my way out of it
20:41:00 <kmc> if you can modify the instructions to use registers then it's pretty much trivial
20:41:11 <Slereah_> Well, if you have jumps and addition
20:41:24 <Slereah_> Do you know µ-recursive functions?
20:41:35 <Slereah_> That's probably the easiest parallel
20:41:49 <kmc> i wrote a compiler from brainfuck
20:41:54 <kmc> but that's probably not the easiest way
20:42:06 <kmc> i just like it because it's a pretty normal programming language, not too esoteric
20:42:22 <kmc> and yet we can compile it into this nonsense
20:42:52 <kmc> i'm fine writing to registers if we never depend on their contents
20:43:07 <Slereah_> Just remove the registers by hand
20:43:26 <kmc> i have a program which uses ptrace() to zero out all the registers after every instruction
20:43:45 <kmc> anyway I'll send you the link when it's done ;P
20:43:56 <kmc> lunchtime ->
20:44:18 <shachaf> kmc: are you allowed to use rip-relative addressing
20:45:08 <kmc> probably but i don't think it's useful so i didn't make up my mind about it
20:45:45 <Slereah_> Are you allowed to use the stack?
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20:49:44 <shachaf> Not the stack pointer register, presumably.
20:50:39 <ais523> kmc: this reminds me of Malbolge, but easier
20:51:37 <Slereah_> I think if you can use the stack
20:52:30 <Slereah_> You can use INC and DEC, create function calls and do a loop for a µ-functions
20:52:41 <Slereah_> You can do µ recursive functions, which are TC
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20:58:03 <fizzie> From what I recall about the rules, I think the stack wasn't allowed.
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20:59:09 <ais523> I used the stack a lot when writing ASCII-only programs
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21:00:15 <Slereah_> Well you can probably still do function calls without the stack
21:00:20 <Slereah_> It's just gonna be a bit more tricky
21:04:17 <kmc> no you can't use the stack because those instructions depend on the value of sp
21:04:31 <fizzie> You can always use a manual stack, of course. (E.g. just keep the stack pointer in the immediate operand of a "mov dword ptr [foo], 1234; jmp [bar]", and when you want to write the stack pointer somewhere -- probably to some register -- self-modify the foo displacement to point at where you want, and the bar to next instruction, and jump to that snippet.)
21:04:48 <fizzie> Er, "register" should've been "operand".
21:05:04 <ais523> I think this should be doable without self-modifying code
21:05:17 <kmc> let me know if you figure out a way :)
21:05:19 <Slereah_> Just µ recursive functions should be doable pretty easily
21:05:35 <ais523> you could do something like MiniMAX, I guess
21:05:51 <kmc> i ended up needing only one level of non-tail calls so I didn't have to implement a stack, just a single place to store a return address
21:05:53 <ais523> except the difficulty you have doing addition
21:05:57 <ais523> because one of the arguments has to be a constant
21:10:12 <fizzie> If you wan't "unbounded" (up to the address space size, anyway) memory, I don't see how you can do it without self-modifying the operands, since otherwise you can only touch memory mentioned in the "source".
21:11:35 <Slereah_> And if you try functions you need to store the arguments somewhere
21:12:17 <kmc> you can just store those in memory right
21:13:16 <Slereah_> Yeah, but how can you access it
21:13:37 <Slereah_> If you only use numbers, you won't be able to use arbitrarily large numbers of recursions and function calls
21:14:43 <fizzie> Clearly the next Intel instruction set rehash should add a double-indirect addressing mode.
21:15:25 <fizzie> "If the 6502 could do it..."
21:15:52 <fizzie> That seems like a reasonable syntax for it.
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21:18:33 <ais523> fizzie: you can touch unmentioned memory via indirects, can't you?
21:19:01 <fizzie> ais523: What indirects?
21:19:12 <ais523> you can store values in unmentioned memory
21:19:24 <ais523> but you can't read them, except to store a different value back in the same memory
21:19:24 <fizzie> ais523: I don't see how you can do that either.
21:19:42 <fizzie> ais523: Stores to address 123.
21:19:56 <ais523> I'm getting my syntaxes muddled
21:20:09 <ais523> even with double indirects I don't see how you can usefully read distant memory
21:20:32 <ais523> and being TC without the ability to read (only write and add constants) seems dubious, if not completely impossible
21:20:37 <Slereah_> You can just use some memory as a data pointer?
21:20:51 <ais523> Slereah_: apparently I was mistaken
21:21:04 <ais523> so yes, you'd need self-modifying code to make this work
21:21:32 <Slereah_> Wait, don't you need the instruction pointer for that?
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21:21:46 <Slereah_> Well I guess you can know the exact position of your code
21:21:47 <ais523> Slereah_: you can write to absolute addresses
21:22:20 <boily> can you do introspection in assembly?
21:22:24 <ais523> the idea of "double indirects, no self-modifying" has me thinking, though
21:22:32 <ais523> actually it's easy, if you can JMP to a double indirect
21:22:49 <ais523> this is a different esolang I'm thinking of now
21:22:59 <ais523> hmm… can it be done with computed or conditional jumps?
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21:23:09 <ais523> err, no computed or conditional jumps
21:23:17 <ais523> just running the same commands over and over again, forever
21:23:33 <Slereah_> I guess you can simulate double indirect using a self modifying code
21:23:45 <Slereah_> Just do some mov [address], value
21:23:52 <Slereah_> And modify the code to change the address
21:24:23 <Slereah_> Then implement a stack or whatnot
21:24:48 <fizzie> ais523: You can do the usual sort of "conditional" jump by having an indirect "jmp [0]" and then doing a double-indirect "mov [[foo]], newcode" -- that'll make a conditional jump to newcode if the value at foo is 0.
21:24:49 <kmc> anyway reads are the hard part, I think
21:25:35 <fizzie> I guess that kind of thing could be used to "read" a bounded value.
21:25:37 <ais523> kmc: not really; use only 0 and (insert small constant here, something around 12 or 16) for your data
21:25:52 <ais523> then to read, add, indirect jump, get the destination to subtract again
21:26:44 <fizzie> Ah, I suppose you don't even need the double-indirect for that approach.
21:27:03 <ais523> this is basically how MiniMAX works
21:27:15 <ais523> except that MiniMAX uses a VM (that has an 8-byte implementation)
21:27:39 <kmc> yeah that's like what i did ais523
21:27:46 <kmc> i still consider that the hard part, compared to writes
21:28:07 <Slereah_> Now try to write an OS without registers
21:29:37 <fizzie> Regarding hardware access, can't write to I/O ports (not that they're probably all that important these days?) without registers.
21:29:57 <Slereah_> Them ports sure love the accumulator
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21:31:22 <Slereah_> Can't think of any way to access any hardware, yeah
21:32:04 <fizzie> You could access memory-mapped hardware just fine. Well, for some values of "fine". (If you start from real mode, I don't think you can get to any sort of usable protected mode without loading segment registers.)
21:32:39 <Slereah_> Even the interrupts needs the accumulatore
21:33:05 <Slereah_> I guess you'll just have to use your imagination for the GUI
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21:38:05 <shachaf> fizzie: did you know that that "return 0;" gets compiled to "mov $-1, %rax"
21:38:38 <kmc> in AT&T assembler syntax yeah
21:38:51 <kmc> and the operand order is reversed from intel
21:39:18 <kmc> there's no negative zero in two's compliment integer arithmetic
21:39:45 <Slereah_> And their divisions would give +- infinity
21:39:55 <kmc> there's no infinity in integer arithmetic, either
21:39:57 <Slereah_> I think floating points has signed infinities
21:40:34 <kmc> +Infinity represents an unknown positive value which is too large to represent
21:41:08 <kmc> and NaN represents a value about which nothing is known
21:41:17 <kmc> which is why NaN ≠ NaN i guess
21:41:33 <shachaf> kmc, fungot: you're both cute imo
21:41:33 <fungot> shachaf: they only need to remove the adverts, come to think of a regex as a string that the host language without using call/ cc
21:41:46 <kmc> thanks shachaf
21:41:47 <shachaf> but fungot produces better ebooks
21:41:47 <fungot> shachaf: totally hilarious.
21:42:37 <mrhmouse> fungot's ebooks are extremely hilarious
21:42:37 <fungot> mrhmouse: use the fink package?
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21:52:09 <Slereah_> Wait, can you do a conditional jump without registers?
21:52:28 <Slereah_> The µ function idea I had kinda hinged on that
21:53:04 <Slereah_> Ah yes, we discussed it earlier
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22:00:23 <shachaf> ion: i'm surprised you haven't been through the who-sent-you cslounge dance yet
22:03:59 <shachaf> so maybe i'll fly to san jose in december
22:04:16 <mroman_> shachaf: Are you *sure* that is a return 0;?
22:05:13 <mroman_> maybe you're not using the return value and the compiler decided to pre-load some constant into rax?
22:05:43 <shachaf> I didn't try it but I believe the person who did try it because returning 0 wouldn't make sense.
22:14:02 <shachaf> Because in the g++ implementation 0 is (/could be) a pointer to the first member.
22:16:44 <mroman_> for int foo() { return 0; }?
22:17:38 <shachaf> No, for the code discussed above.
22:18:20 <shachaf> int T::*foo() { return 0; }
22:19:14 <kmc> oh, you're saying that a NULL function pointer is not represented by the integral value 0?
22:19:20 <kmc> NULL member pointer, I mean
22:19:23 <kmc> interesting
22:19:52 <Slereah_> I think it's implementation dependant
22:19:58 <kmc> right I meant in this implementation
22:20:33 <mroman_> Then I'm not surprised at all
22:21:12 <fizzie> shachaf: Huh, so it does.
22:21:35 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/YChV
22:22:08 <shachaf> fizzie: g++ -O2 -S -o/dev/stdout tmp.cc
22:22:17 <fizzie> Member pointer representations are a terribly complicated thing, anyway.
22:23:18 <fizzie> Or at least pointers to member functions.
22:23:29 <fizzie> http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/7150/Member-Function-Pointers-and-the-Fastest-Possible "Implementations of Member Function Pointers" has a nice table.
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22:27:28 <shachaf> fizzie: https://codereview.appspot.com/22170044/ hth
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22:29:17 <shachaf> Probably http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/go.tools/cmd/vet
22:29:18 <fizzie> (Except a non-stationary veterinarian.)
22:29:35 <shachaf> Anyway I meant the collapsed messages earlier in the thread.
22:30:15 <fizzie> Well it's about stdin anyway! Nothing to do with using - for stdout.
22:32:30 <fizzie> Also - is the convention "too bad" "so sad"
22:35:04 <fizzie> (Also, I didn't know "null member pointer value" even existed, v. fancy.)
22:40:25 <fizzie> [[ A prvalue of type "pointer to member of B of type cv T", where B is a class type, can be converted to a prvalue of type "pointer to member of D of type cv T", where D is a derived class (Clause 10) of B. If B is an inaccessible (Clause 11), ambiguous (10.2), or virtual (10.1) base class of D, or a base class of a virtual base class of D, a program that necessitates this conversion is ...
22:40:31 <fizzie> ... ill-formed. The result of the conversion refers to the same member as the pointer to member before the conversion took place, but it refers to the base class member as if it were a member of the derived class. The result refers to the member in D's instance of B. Since the result has type "pointer to member of D of type cv T", it can be dereferenced with a D object. The result is the same ...
22:40:37 <fizzie> ... as if the pointer to member of B were dereferenced with the B subobject of D."
22:40:40 <fizzie> Well, that's good to know.
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23:08:01 <ais523> what's a TIL except I didn't learn it today, rather a few days ago?
23:08:26 <ais523> well, AFDAIL that BNF was invented for the original Algol 60 spec
23:08:26 <shachaf> kmc says "shachaf: did you know [...]"
23:08:32 <ais523> which lists Backus and Naur as authors
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23:26:47 <oerjan> <quintopia> hackego has it? <-- the prefixes command is in all of fungot, HackEgo and EgoBot, which are the bots i know how to update a command in.
23:26:47 <fungot> oerjan: are you serious? what else is there to call/ cc
23:27:47 * oerjan swats everyone for being idle -----###
23:28:07 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> hackego has it? <-- the prefixes command is in all of fungot, HackEgo and EgoBot, which are the bots i know how to update a command in.
23:28:08 <fungot> oerjan: plus i got some really nice fnord. but if you told me, i hate google doing that.
23:31:07 <oerjan> <quintopia> to anyone good at hackego: the bienvenido message drops a "t" at the end <-- oops
23:31:16 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
23:31:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^!: not found
23:31:57 <oerjan> i think it's simply over HackEgo's limit with a nick, because of the "Most people here don't speak Spanish" addition.
23:32:34 <ais523> has that variant ever been used in anger?
23:33:29 <oerjan> ais523: i use it when someone shows up who says "hola" as their first message :P
23:33:44 <oerjan> which happens surprisingly often.
23:33:49 <ais523> have they been Spanish speakers? or just people who hola'd out of the blue?
23:34:15 <oerjan> ais523: mostly Spanish speakers, although the last time i did it wasn't.
23:34:26 <oerjan> (also it's not always literally "hola")
23:35:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 안녕하세요: not found
23:35:14 <oerjan> we have the theory it happens because #esoteric starts with es. although i don't think that has ever really been confirmed.
23:35:42 <oerjan> apparently `bienvenido cuts off it the nick is longer than 12 chars.
23:36:03 <oerjan> which happened earlier today, but isn't common.
23:36:44 <oerjan> it dropped "t.)", and the nick was 14, so longer than 11.
23:37:10 <oerjan> isn't 14 the absolute limit?
23:37:32 <ais523> `welcome fourteenletter
23:37:34 <HackEgo> fourteenletter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:37:43 <ais523> `bienvenido fourteenletter
23:37:45 <HackEgo> fourteenletter: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.ne
23:37:54 <ais523> seems pretty conclusive
23:38:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nick: not found
23:38:10 -!- oerjan has changed nick to fifteenletter12.
23:38:12 <ais523> (I use "twelveletter" as a test name when I'm trying to test if there's room in the status area)
23:38:13 -!- fifteenletter12 has changed nick to fifteenletter123.
23:38:26 <ais523> fifteenletter123: bu that's 16 letters
23:38:29 -!- fifteenletter123 has changed nick to oerjan.
23:38:30 <ais523> you should be sixteenletter123
23:38:50 <ais523> actually, it's only 13 letters
23:38:57 <ais523> it's 16 /characters/ but "123" are not letters
23:38:58 <oerjan> in any case there's a simple fix.
23:39:30 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's!wiki/Main_Page!!' wisdom/bienvenido
23:39:31 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/bienvenido: No such file or directory
23:39:37 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, all the fixes I thought of were massively complicated
23:39:43 <ais523> but then I was trying to fix something else
23:39:44 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's!wiki/Main_Page!!' wisdom/welcome.es
23:40:16 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.es"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.es"; }
23:40:28 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
23:40:34 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:40:37 <oerjan> `bienvenido sixteenletters12
23:40:39 <HackEgo> sixteenletters12: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
23:45:30 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
23:46:19 <oerjan> (just testing if the lambdabot: ? spam is only for lambdabot: ? or something more general. seems it isn't.)
23:49:32 <oerjan> @poll-result remove@src
23:49:32 <lambdabot> Poll results for remove@src (Closed): no=1, yes=1
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23:51:31 <lambdabot> ["(++)","ConfusedWithVixenSituation","FlavaOfJRuby","Prelude-(.)?","best-programming-language","best-spoken-language","food","funniest-thing-in-the-whole-world","naming","nethack","president","prove->","remove@src","sleep"]
23:51:35 <lambdabot> Poll results for (++) (Open): (++)::Semigroup_m=>m->m->m=1, (++)::Monoid_m=>m->m->m=2, (++)::[a]->[a]->[a]=2
23:51:50 <shachaf> @poll-result best-programming-language
23:51:50 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-programming-language (Open): COBOL=2, PHP=1, Coq=0, Agda=0, anything-else=0, Haskell=0
23:52:02 <lambdabot> Poll results for naming (Closed): Lovelace=1, Babbage=0
23:52:14 <lambdabot> Poll results for sleep (Open): no=1, yes=7
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23:52:21 <shachaf> hmm, p. sure i made that last one
23:52:26 <lambdabot> Poll results for prove-> (Open): proven=1, proved=0
23:52:42 <lambdabot> Poll results for president (Open): cthulhu=3, kmc=1, copumpkin=5
23:53:06 <lambdabot> Poll results for food (Open): quesadilla=2, meatball-sub=2
23:53:37 <Bike> man, tough choice.
23:53:47 <lambdabot> poll-add <name> Adds a new poll, with no candidates
23:53:53 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
23:54:01 <lambdabot> choice-add <poll> <choice> Adds a new choice to the given poll
23:54:11 <oerjan> @choice-add food lutefisk
23:54:11 <lambdabot> New candidate "lutefisk", added to poll "food".
23:54:43 <Bike> @choice-add best-programming-language SNOBOL
23:54:43 <lambdabot> New candidate "SNOBOL", added to poll "best-programming-language".
23:54:49 <Bike> @vote best-programming-language SNOBOL
23:56:01 <shachaf> @poll-result best-spoken-language
23:56:01 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): magyar=3, Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=2, Manx=1, norwegian=8
23:56:24 <oerjan> @vote best-spoken-language Georgian
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00:00:05 <lambdabot> usage: @choice-add <poll> <choice>
00:00:07 <lambdabot> New candidate "update", added to poll "olist".
00:01:32 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat . run (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:01:33 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `fun' (imported from Debug.SimpleRef...
00:01:43 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:01:44 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Missing ')' in nested command
00:01:49 <shachaf> @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:01:50 <lambdabot> (@vote olist update) (@vote olist update) (@vote olist update) (@vote olist...
00:02:01 <shachaf> @@ (@read @run text . concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:02:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "read"
00:02:17 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 3 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:02:17 <lambdabot> voted on "update" voted on "update" voted on "update"
00:02:21 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 4 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:02:22 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Missing ')' in nested command
00:02:46 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:02:47 <lambdabot> "(@vote olist update) (@vote olist update) (@vote olist update) (@vote olis...
00:03:14 <oerjan> i think it's @run which has such a low output limit?
00:03:21 <shachaf> This used to work, though.
00:03:28 <shachaf> That's why Polish is so popular.
00:03:32 <shachaf> I don't remember how I did it.
00:03:37 <shachaf> I might've used @read, which is gone now?
00:03:51 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:04:05 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:04:06 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Missing ')' in nested command
00:05:36 <oerjan> ^ul (@@ )(@vote olist update)a::::::*******S
00:05:36 <fungot> @@ (@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)
00:05:36 <lambdabot> voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"
00:05:55 <shachaf> Well, yes, but that doesn't let you get really high.
00:06:32 <lambdabot> dummy provides: eval choose dummy bug id show wiki paste docs learn haskellers botsnack get-shapr shootout faq googleit hackage thanks thx thank you ping tic-tac-toe
00:06:41 <Bike> @help haskellers
00:06:42 <lambdabot> haskellers. Find other Haskell users
00:08:06 <oerjan> i wonder if the @run cut-down is related to int-e's fixes the other day, he was looking at how that worked.
00:08:18 <shachaf> int-e: did you break lambdabot
00:09:06 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
00:09:51 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
00:14:06 <lambdabot> Poll results for olist (Open): update=932
00:14:29 <shachaf> The trouble is that you can't unvote.
00:14:40 <shachaf> And you can't remove options.
00:15:12 <shachaf> But this does give me the idea to give `olist an incrementing counter.
00:15:20 <oerjan> the obvious solution ^
00:15:28 <shachaf> Well, @karma won't let you add a list of nicks.
00:16:05 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:16:08 <lambdabot> olist ((@karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:16:15 <lambdabot> olist (olist has a karma of 0): shachaf oerjan
00:17:31 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@run text $ dropWhile (not isNumber) @show @karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:17:35 <lambdabot> olist ( Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.Bool'
00:17:56 <shachaf> @@ @run @show @karma olist
00:18:09 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@run text $ dropWhile (not . isNumber) @show @karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:18:09 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
00:18:24 <shachaf> OK, well, you get the idea.
00:18:56 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@run text . filter isNumber $ @show @karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
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00:19:14 <Bike> what in sam hill is going on here
00:19:41 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@run text . filter isNumber $ "")): shachaf oerjan
00:19:41 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
00:19:53 <shachaf> why am i @where+ing each time
00:20:15 <shachaf> @@ olist ((@run text . filter isNumber $ @show @karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:20:22 <shachaf> @@ olist ((@run text . filter isNumber $ @show @karma olist)): [...]
00:20:30 <shachaf> @@ olist ((@run text "")): [...]
00:22:53 <oerjan> @tell int-e your new @run is hard to compose with @@ because of the newline
00:23:07 <shachaf> @tell int-e and the spaces
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00:25:29 <oerjan> i think he was trying to simplify the space handling.
00:26:08 <oerjan> hm it's the same as it used to be there
00:26:22 <shachaf> oerjan: p. sure it takes a rocket scientist to do that
00:27:08 <oerjan> i hear the new gravity movie has a joke about "it's not rocket science"
00:27:23 <oerjan> the joke is that it's about how to use a rocket
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00:53:32 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> and I'm not sure it's a second declension male word in the first place <-- fourth, according to wiktionary, so plural is also status
00:54:18 <oklopol> i've been internetless for the last week o_O
00:54:29 <Bike> get some reading done then
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00:56:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> and for words like hawaius <-- in hawaiian the name's Hawaiʻi
00:57:12 <oerjan> i think it's a glottal stop
00:57:29 <Taneb> The murder mystery series my dad's cousin was in HAS AIRED IN THE UK
00:58:00 <oerjan> Taneb: does this mean you're forever shamed by your family
00:58:28 <Taneb> I'm a little annoyed nobody told me
01:01:27 <Taneb> oklopol, I don't know I haven't watched it yet
01:01:40 <Taneb> I think she's playing a recurring character so maybe lots of people
01:01:54 <oklopol> oh i thought this was some reality show
01:02:21 <oklopol> (seriously, although i didn't think your cousin was the murderer)
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02:21:20 <shachaf> https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/9887522
02:23:13 <kmc> is this the awful thing everyone is talking about
02:24:11 <Fiora> https://twitter.com/search?q=%23pennyarcadejobpostings&src=typd&f=realtime ?
02:24:12 <kmc> isn't it awful
02:24:30 <shachaf> kmc is clearly not a bad enough dude
02:24:56 <Fiora> some of the responses are pretty great (in a terribly cathartic way, at least)
02:25:15 <kmc> "A bunch of 25 year-old kids with a ton of talent and stars in their eyes are going to try to get this crap job for crap pay" see this is where I feel pleased with myself about being 25 years old and already cynical enough to see through this shit
02:25:20 <Bike> this is a great ad
02:25:36 <Bike> oh man it just keeps going
02:26:23 <Bike> "a creative and potentially offensive environment"
02:26:24 <shachaf> kmc: p. sure that doesn't say "25-year-old"
02:28:45 <Fiora> maybe like, nerds will finally discover penny arcade are actually horrible people? or like they'll all apply anyways <.<
02:30:43 <shachaf> kmc: do you think of yourself as v. cynical
02:30:47 <shachaf> you don't seem that way to me most of the time
02:31:10 <kmc> PA is like the ultimate example of nerds acting like underdog rebels even after they come to control everything
02:32:10 <kmc> it helps that the comic has been pretty shitty for the last few years so I don't lose much by trying to ignore them
02:32:22 <kmc> it was fucking hilarious for a long time, though
02:33:02 <kmc> shachaf: I do, generally
02:33:15 <Taneb> I see myself as relatively idealistic
02:33:17 <kmc> but I know that I'm pretty unfair in my judgements about myself
02:33:41 <shachaf> keep in mind that kmc's favourite comic strip is jerkcity
02:34:08 <kmc> no, it has to be Achewood
02:34:13 <kmc> but Jerkcity is pretty good too
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02:50:32 <kmc> shachaf: I guess I am cynical about most things but really positive and idealistic about a few and that keeps me going
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02:59:51 <Sgeo> I wonder when Trident will go the way of MSIE
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03:32:06 <shachaf> what is the opposite of "cynical"
03:32:43 <Bike> "optimistic", usually
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03:47:40 <Bike> what, of anything?
03:48:00 <kmc> but can you be copresident
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03:57:32 <shachaf> copumpkin can be president of my heart ♥
04:03:56 -!- Bike_ has joined.
04:04:19 <ion> shachaf can be president of my fart ♥
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04:31:13 <ion> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/hoppe/proj/videoloops/
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05:11:29 <shachaf> higher order, higher rank, higher kinded polymorphism #drugz
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05:13:43 <quintopia> ion: i think i watched a presentation about that for some conference once...
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07:21:36 <L8D> Would you guys consider a simplified form of FORTH to be an esoteric language?
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07:22:33 <Bike> simplified how? have you seen underload?
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07:23:38 <L8D> simplified as in, not a full implementation, but enough to be turing complete and usable for embedded machines
07:24:24 <Bike> i wouldn't really consider that esoteric just because somebody probably already made it for such a machine.
07:24:37 <L8D> I broke down the semantics of the language so that everything could be bootstrapped with no 'special' operators or keywords
07:25:25 <L8D> -1 ? " true " : " false " ; type
07:25:45 <L8D> and the if conditional looks like a ternary expression
07:26:06 <L8D> well, it is.
07:26:47 <shachaf> A language is esoteric iff it has an esolangs.org wiki page.
07:27:52 <fizzie> shachaf: You just done proved that Perl really is an esoteric language. (Not that there was any doubt.)
07:27:55 <L8D> are you asking what the esoteric language named 'semi-colon' is, or are you asking about the code?
07:30:05 <L8D> the first instruction in the code is the '-1', which just adds a -1(the standard value for a true boolean), then the '?' is the instruction for a conditional expression which will run the code between the '?' and the ':' if the item popped from the stack is true, and will run the code between the ':' and the ';' if the popped item is false
07:30:31 <Bike> Then what's "type"?
07:30:34 <L8D> the ';' really just marks the end of the if statement
07:30:35 <shachaf> is ; the comment character
07:31:22 <L8D> 'type' is an intrstuction to pop an item off the stack as a pointer and print it as a string
07:32:02 <Bike> What's -"1 type" do, out of curiosity
07:32:43 <shachaf> Bike: p. sure hott has a meaning for -1-type
07:32:49 <L8D> It will try to use -1 as a char pointer and probably segfault or throw an error depending on whether type checking was enabled
07:32:53 <Bike> p. sure i don't care.
07:32:59 <Bike> L8D: makes sense.
07:33:41 <shachaf> http://comonad.com/reader/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/slides.pdf
07:35:11 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.20539:1: Invalid memory address \ -1 1 >>>type<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7FCE1EB7CE70 write-file
07:35:31 <fizzie> Plain "-1 type" stack-underflows, of course.
07:35:42 <L8D> : fib dup 2 < ? : dup 1 - fib 2 - fib + ; ;
07:37:03 <L8D> !forth -1 IF S" true" ELSE S" false" THEN TYPE
07:37:03 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.20573:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ -1 >>>IF<<< S" true" ELSE S" false" THEN TYPE \ Backtrace: \ $7FC39808AB30 throw
07:37:42 <L8D> !forth : true s" true " ; : false s" false" ; -1 IF true ELSE false THEN TYPE
07:37:42 <EgoBot> redefined true redefined false \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.20617:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ : true s" true " ; : false s" false" ; -1 >>>IF<<< true ELSE false THEN TYPE \ Backtrace: \ $7F25C6EC4B30 throw
07:38:00 <L8D> this is why I created the simplified form
07:38:11 <fizzie> !forth -1 [IF] S" true" [ELSE] S" false" [THEN] TYPE \ so immediate
07:41:33 <Bike> !forth -1 if s" true" else s" false" then type
07:41:34 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.20897:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ -1 >>>if<<< s" true" else s" false" then type \ Backtrace: \ $7FF2BEB33B30 throw
07:41:52 <Bike> !forth -1 [if] s" true" [else] s" false" [then] type
07:41:55 <fizzie> Repeating the same thing is not going to make it work. :p
07:42:00 <Bike> i don't get this.
07:42:17 <fizzie> See some documentation re interpretation and compilation semantics.
07:42:31 <fizzie> !forth : dummy -1 if s" true" else s" false" then type ; dummy
07:42:47 <fizzie> There's a defined "dummy"?
07:42:59 <Bike> !forth dummy type
07:42:59 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21094:1: Stack underflow \ dummy >>>type<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7F886AB35E70 write-file
07:43:06 <L8D> !forth dummy
07:43:14 <L8D> I think dummy is no op.
07:43:17 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21221:1: Stack underflow \ 4 >>>type<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7F6B3345CE70 write-file
07:43:30 <Bike> ok, it's clearly been way too long since i 'learned' forth.
07:43:31 <L8D> !forth ." This is a test"
07:43:35 <EgoBot> \ : dummy ; immediate
07:44:36 <fizzie> !forth s" 'type' prints the usual two-cell string" type
07:44:37 <EgoBot> 'type' prints the usual two-cell string
07:45:24 <L8D> why two cells?
07:45:45 <L8D> couldn’t you fit a pointer into one?
07:46:09 <fizzie> It's an address-and-length pair.
07:46:30 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21579:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ >>>c"<<< foo" . \ Backtrace: \ $7F9583151B30 throw
07:46:53 <fizzie> !forth : bah c" foo" . ; bah
07:47:00 <fizzie> !forth : bah c" foo" count type ; bah
07:47:53 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" -1 type ; bah
07:48:02 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" 1 - type ; bah
07:48:02 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21780:1: Stack underflow \ : bah c" foo" 1 - type ; >>>bah<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7F782C04CE70 write-file \ $7F782C09F348 type
07:48:28 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" count 1 - type ; bah
07:48:32 <L8D> there we go
07:48:52 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" +1 count 1 - type ; bah
07:48:53 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21876:1: Undefined word \ : bah c" foo" >>>+1<<< count 1 - type ; bah \ Backtrace: \ $7FD3F0895A68 throw \ $7FD3F08ABC68 no.extensions \ $7FD3F08993A0 compiler-notfound1
07:49:00 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" 1 + count 1 - type ; bah
07:49:12 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" 1 + count 2 - type ; bah
07:49:55 <fizzie> It's a counted string.
07:50:31 <fizzie> A pointer to a Pascal-style (length, data) pair, instead of the (pointer-to-data, length) pair on the stack, like s".
07:51:16 <fizzie> If you do c" foo" 1+ count it's going to interpret the 'f' as the length.
07:51:52 <fizzie> !forth : x c" foo" 1+ count . . ; x
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07:55:55 <fizzie> !forth : x c" ab" dup 10 0 do dup c@ . 1+ loop drop 1+ 10 type ; x
07:55:56 <EgoBot> 2 97 98 32 32 32 32 32 0 78 ab
07:56:18 <fizzie> I guess "type" stops as the 0 there, even though it might not need to.
07:56:44 <fizzie> (Also not sure what's up with those spaces.)
07:57:47 <fizzie> !forth : x c" ab" dup 10 0 do dup c@ . 1+ loop drop 1+ 10 ." <" type ." >" ; x
07:57:47 <EgoBot> 2 97 98 32 32 32 32 32 0 78 <ab
07:57:56 <fizzie> Oh, maybe it's actually EgoBot that stops at the 0.
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09:12:38 <impomatic> !forth : C >R 256 15 16 1799 4 13107 2 21845 R> 4 0 DO TUCK OVER AND -ROT INVERT AND ROT / + LOOP ; 12345 C
09:12:47 <impomatic> !forth : C >R 256 15 16 1799 4 13107 2 21845 R> 4 0 DO TUCK OVER AND -ROT INVERT AND ROT / + LOOP ; 12345 C .
09:13:12 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.24099:1: Undefined word \ 175 >>>C<<< . \ Backtrace: \ $7FAC86EF5A68 throw \ $7FAC86F0BCE0 no.extensions \ $7FAC86EF5D28 interpreter-notfound1
09:15:52 <fizzie> No persistence for you.
09:16:38 <impomatic> !forth : f 46. do dup 1 .r cr dup rot + loop ; 0 1 f
09:16:39 <EgoBot> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134903170 \ 1836311903
09:17:38 <impomatic> The #forth channel should have this!
09:19:07 <fizzie> What, don't they have an eval-bot?
09:19:35 <fizzie> I thought that was kind of a standard feature. The channels I'm on (##c, #perl, #scheme) all do.
09:49:49 <fizzie> Prints a number with a given field width.
09:50:06 <fizzie> I think that "1 .r" is pretty close to "." but maybe there's some subtle difference.
09:50:52 <fizzie> !forth : f 46. do dup . cr dup rot + loop ; 0 1 f
09:50:53 <EgoBot> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134903170 \ 1836311903
09:51:03 <fizzie> Ah, right, the automatic space.
09:51:47 <fizzie> !forth : f 46. do dup . dup rot + loop ; 0 1 f \ arguably better, though
09:51:48 <EgoBot> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 75025 121393 196418 317811 514229 832040 1346269 2178309 3524578 5702887 9227465 14930352 24157817 39088169 63245986 102334155 165580141 267914296 433494437 701408733 1134903170 1836311903
09:52:53 <fizzie> I like the "46." shorthand for "46 0".
09:53:28 <fizzie> The whole thing with "double precision" in Forth is kind of funny-weird.
09:53:46 <fizzie> .1234, 12.34 and 1234. are all the same number, a two-cells-wide 1234.
09:54:53 <fizzie> !forth 0.1234 12.34 1234. d. d. d. \ okay, plain .1234 wasn't quite legal
10:35:21 <ion> Are Imperial Measurements outdated? http://youtu.be/r7x-RGfd0Yk
10:42:21 <fizzie> Hrm, my log database update script seems to have barfed at the recent string "\udead\ubeef". Apparently the UTF-8 encoder involved there is strict about standards, and refuses to UTF-8-encode that standalone trail surrogate.
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12:21:34 <ion> http://dolan.naurunappula.com/screen/d5/f7/d5f7f404978714ec/0/787935.jpg
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13:36:16 <metasepia> CYUL 271300Z 04012KT 4SM -RA OVC005 01/00 A2951 RMK SF8 PRESFR SLP996
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13:58:19 <boily> good sloshy morning!
13:59:22 <boily> quintopia: I went through the Takis bag yesterday. I want moar. I'll have to scour downtown's groceries and dépanneurs under exécrable weather just to probably find some.
14:01:01 -!- L8D has joined.
14:01:10 <HackEgo> L8D: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:04:00 <boily> shachaf: what would a single ascius be? how many avoidupois ounces in an ascius?
14:07:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:08:58 <oerjan> `learn copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
14:09:25 <oerjan> not a natural born citizen, i guess.
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14:09:54 <oerjan> darn there's _another_ 3-letter nick clash?
14:10:58 <boily> copumpkin: can you say something memorable, so that your quote-section won't be empty?
14:11:03 <boily> (same goes for impomatic)
14:11:16 <ais523> `addquote <boily> copumpkin: can you say something memorable, so that your quote-section won't be empty?
14:11:19 <boily> oerjan: who's nicklashing with whom?
14:11:20 <HackEgo> 1138) <boily> copumpkin: can you say something memorable, so that your quote-section won't be empty?
14:12:10 * boily sighs... “there we go agais523n...”
14:12:26 <oerjan> coppro|nospoiler with copumpkin, myndzi with myname, tromp__ with trout (just found that), and i guess glogbot with glogbackup although they're not _supposed_ to be here at the same time and who speaks to them anyway.
14:12:38 <ais523> boily: you can just delete it again
14:13:14 <boily> ais523: nah. I like it.
14:13:33 <boily> glogbot: hi there! :)
14:14:51 <oerjan> trout is of course highly variable, and will sometimes clash with conehead instead.
14:14:52 -!- boily has changed nick to oerboily.
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14:15:19 <oerjan> fortunately i rarely have occasion to tab complete my own nick.
14:15:45 -!- oerboily has changed nick to fizboily.
14:15:54 <ais523> sometimes I /nick to a name just to be able to tab complete it
14:16:04 <ais523> however, I've got into the awful habit of tab-completing on one letter
14:16:15 <ais523> because my client favours tab-completing whoever spoke most recently
14:16:20 <fizboily> tab-completing on “f” is dangerous.
14:16:24 <ais523> meaning it's normally right but I sometimes get tab-ninja'd
14:16:46 <oerjan> even "fi" is annoying.
14:17:48 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: <copumpkin> YOU ARE SUCH A PULLBACK <copumpkin> YOU KNOW WHAT? I FUNCTORED YOUR MOTHER LAST NIGHT
14:18:03 <oerjan> he says most of his memorabilia elsewhere.
14:18:13 -!- fizboily has changed nick to boily.
14:18:19 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Do you think like you type?
14:19:10 <boily> oerjan: is there an easy way to aggregate cucurbitaceæ into the PDF?
14:19:58 <oerjan> do we have that, i've forgotten.
14:20:18 * impomatic hasn't said anything interesting to date...
14:20:31 <oerjan> `addquote * impomatic hasn't said anything interesting to date...
14:20:35 <HackEgo> 1139) * impomatic hasn't said anything interesting to date...
14:21:05 <oerjan> oh come on, you knew it had to happen.
14:21:58 <oerjan> boily: to aggregate cucurbitaceæ you need to exploit categorical duality.
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14:25:11 <boily> the impomatiquote was added, with a footnote *smirk*
14:31:12 <oerjan> i seem to have mostly stopped reading pdfs after getting the new laptop, because it no longer opens them inside IE.
14:31:56 <oerjan> and in fact opens them in metro hell.
14:32:28 * boily hugs his fully pinguinized machine
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14:36:35 <oerjan> boily: how's your flash doing? >:)
14:37:24 <boily> oerjan: I don't know what you're talking about. la la la ♪
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14:38:54 <boily> oerjan: I probably went through all major bugs and misfires. the most memorable was on my home desktop, when nvidia drivers swapped the blue and red channels.
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14:46:50 <oerjan> oh dear they must have fixed it in 8.1
14:48:46 <metasepia> ENVA 271420Z 27026KT 9999 FEW020 BKN046 07/02 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 30026G38KT
14:49:23 <oerjan> which one of those represent the storm i seem to be hearing outside the window
14:50:11 <oerjan> hm weather forecast says breeze.
14:56:21 <oerjan> a _little_ unspecific, there.
14:58:19 <boily> you have 26 knot winds going on, which is non-homeopatic.
14:58:29 <boily> no clue about that “670FT”.
14:58:57 <boily> oh hm. a second wind group. I guess the storm hasn't come to ENVA yet.
15:00:02 <oerjan> well the yr.no weather forecast claimed a breeze, not a storm. dunno why it sounds so loud.
15:00:44 <boily> ultra hardcode Norwegian wind?
15:01:21 <oerjan> `frink 26 knots -> m/s
15:01:30 <HackEgo> 6019/450 (approx. 13.375555555555556)
15:02:48 <oerjan> hm ok there's a warning about possible storm by the coast, perhaps it's got further inland than they expected.
15:07:56 <oerjan> a boring fungus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliona_viridis
15:08:24 <oerjan> sheesh, brain, do i have to whack you upside the head
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15:15:36 <boily> oerjan: your head seems to be fille with Impure Brainfsck Derivative Thoughts. please apply brick and reboot.
15:16:03 <boily> ... “green boring sponge”???
15:20:52 <oerjan> i told you it was boring.
15:23:16 <FireFly> Not Impure Fungeoid Derivative Thoughts?
15:28:20 <FireFly> Hm what happened with Magnus in the topic?
15:45:38 <mroman_> I have an idea for brainfuck
15:45:47 <mroman_> it's like brainfuck, but with a logarithmic scale .
15:46:31 <boily> mroman_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/SELECT.?
15:46:48 <FireFly> Hm, what happened to someone's continuous brainfuck idea?
15:47:06 * oerjan had vaguely hoped for Shikhin to add a "Vishy!" or something.
15:47:27 <oerjan> although the way it ended, probably just as well he didn't.
15:48:45 <metasepia> Viswanathan Anand (born 11 December 1969) is an Indian chess Grandmaster and former World Chess Champion.
15:48:51 * oerjan swats metasepia -----###
15:49:13 <boily> eille! no violence against my peaceful bot!
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15:49:21 <oerjan> BUT IT'S HIDEOUSLY BIASED
15:49:49 * boily hugs his bot. “don't listen to angry magnus supporters.”
15:52:34 <oerjan> also google translate thinks "eille" is finnish.
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15:53:23 <oerjan> and means "MATCH", capitals required.
15:54:16 <boily> fr:eille → en:hey.
15:54:36 <oerjan> WHY DOESN'T GOOGLE TRANSLATE KNOW THAT?
15:56:36 <boily> FOR THE SAME REASON FRENCH IS FRANCE FRENCH, AND ARMENIAN IS EASTERN ARMENIAN, AND CHINESE IS MANDARIN.
15:57:06 <boily> (I'd really like to have a Cantonese version. it'd be very useful in Montréal.)
15:58:20 <boily> but the best would be simultaneous multiple languabe output.
16:03:17 <ais523> aren't Mandarin and Cantonese spelled the same?
16:03:27 <ais523> so unless you were doing voice recognition, it make sense to merge them in a machine translator
16:05:27 <boily> no, the gramar and characters used are different.
16:09:04 <metasepia> CYUL 271600Z 31009KT 8SM -SN OVC009 01/00 A2945 RMK SF8 /S01/ SLP976
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16:34:49 <mroman_> Or a Brainfuck Derivative based on the disecrete logarithm problem thingy
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16:37:02 <boily> mroman_: to base a language on an NP problem is vile and nasty. please implement.
16:42:08 <Slereah> What about a travelling saleman language
16:42:13 <Slereah> That salesman sells integers
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16:44:09 <oerjan> boily: you failed to mention Eodermdrome
16:49:46 * boily fails to mention Eodermdrome
16:50:31 <Slereah> Apparently there are some 2^2^n problems
16:51:00 <Slereah> Hitler if he was a complexity class
16:52:13 <Bike> what about O(ackermann).
16:53:01 <FireFly> I recall ackermann⁻¹ appearing in the complexity of some algorithms
16:53:16 <Slereah> Yeah, but ackermann^-1 is pretty fucking soft
16:53:40 <FireFly> also, log*(n) (iterated logarithm)
16:53:45 <Bike> O(fast growing * factorial * exponent * tetration * fuck you fuck you fuck you)
16:53:54 <Slereah> If I had a cancer growing at O(a^-1), I wouldn't even stop eating radium
16:54:05 <Slereah> Bike : Sure, but try finding such a problem!
16:54:19 <Slereah> Such a problem *that doesn't have a less complex solution*
16:54:46 <Slereah> Also my guess is that there's probably a cap on complexity
16:55:23 <boily> what does radium taste like?
16:55:29 <Bike> what's the complexity of finding every problem with ackermann complexity
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16:58:13 <Bike> and the upper limit on complexity is impossibility.
16:59:20 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALL_(complexity)
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17:22:05 <Slereah> Yeah, but I meant more computational time-wise
17:22:35 <Bike> 'forever' is a time!
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17:33:57 <FireFly> Would ALL include undecidable decision problems?
17:35:35 <FireFly> i.e. is the halting problem in ALL, or is it not classified as a decision problem despite having a boolean answer?
17:36:20 <Bike> halting problem is in RE
17:36:25 <Bike> (which is a subset of ALL ofc)
17:38:52 <Bike> since if a program halts it takes finite time to demonstrate thath.
17:39:09 <Bike> but yes, ALL is a strict superset of RE, and so includes impossible problems.
17:41:24 <Slereah> But not undefinable problems!
17:43:32 <Bike> iunno. might as well put them in there too.
17:47:11 <Slereah> Undefinable problems cannot be inputed in a Turing machines
17:47:36 <Slereah> Though they can be in a SUPERTURING MACHINE
17:47:41 <Bike> i'll just use an undefinable machine.
17:47:52 <Slereah> Like a Turing machine with continuous cells
17:48:23 <Slereah> Or a Turing machine with infinite starting input
17:54:10 <Slereah> Why is EXPTIME considered unfeasable
17:54:28 <Slereah> I ran some exptime programs
17:54:46 <quintopia> boily: isn't it just the greatest food invention ever? why did it take so long to get invented?
17:55:05 <Bike> Slereah: because for realistically large problem sizes you're usuallyy fucked.
17:55:44 <Slereah> Feasable isn't the same as "Fuck it's too big, let's give up
17:56:59 <Bike> if you're giving up you're basically saying it's infeasible.
17:57:36 <Bike> wikipedia has a good example of an exptime problem: figuring out perfect play from a given chess position is exponential in the size of the board.
17:57:58 <Bike> and guess what, people actually don't compute perfect play in chess.
17:58:11 <Slereah> They might if they played on a 4x4 chess set!
17:59:33 <Slereah> "Chess Attack: played on a six-row five-column board, Chess Attack follows standard chess rules, and can be regarded as an endgame variant."
18:00:13 <quintopia> i didn't know that was proven exptime...yes there are exp many games from a position, but i didn't know it had been proven that there wasn't some complicated heuristic that ended up being as good as perfect
18:00:29 <Bike> 'as good as perfect' is pretty hard.
18:00:41 <boily> quintopia: my mouth was burning with the force of a thousand limes.
18:00:47 <quintopia> but "prove it doesn't exist" is also hard
18:01:18 <ion> http://turbo.sos.gd/
18:01:42 <quintopia> boily: and i only sent the regular ones. they also have NITRO, which are the same but habanero based.
18:01:57 <Bike> Slereah: i can prove that "while (1) {}" never halts but that doesn't make the halting problem feasible, you know?
18:02:51 <Slereah> Well yes, but you can always solve an EXP problem
18:02:56 * boily has gained a new quest! “Find a bag of NITRO TAKIS”!
18:02:56 <Slereah> Given sufficient time and space
18:02:57 <ais523> Bike: doesn't it halt when someone interrupts it/
18:03:02 <Slereah> So it's not really comparable
18:03:14 <L8D> Bike: do you ever sleep?
18:03:56 <L8D> I was last on here about 11 hours ago
18:04:10 <L8D> and you were here then
18:05:26 <boily> L8D: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_presence.html
18:06:14 <quintopia> http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/its-thanksgiving-so-we-asked-some-brits-to-label-the-us-stat?s=mobile
18:06:47 <L8D> http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/its-thanksgiving-so-we-asked-some-brits-to-label-the-us-stat
18:07:18 <boily> bwah ah ah ah ah :D
18:07:30 <boily> that's a new one, Big Scotland.
18:09:13 <boily> `learn Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
18:10:45 <Bike> Slereah: what's the point of having 'feasible' mean 'possible'?
18:14:51 <Slereah> Because that's what it means?
18:15:01 <Bike> 'possible' could be said to mean that we can imagine some actor, possibly in a science-fiction novel, considering it feasible, while 'feasible' means that i can be that actor.
18:15:08 <Slereah> Sharing the same root as french "faisable"
18:15:09 <myname> what does hackego actually say is he already has information about something?
18:15:20 <Bike> fuck etymology
18:15:32 <Slereah> Well yes, but if you go by that
18:15:34 <Bike> myname: i don't think `learn checks.
18:15:43 <Slereah> Polynomial can be unfeasable!
18:16:36 <Bike> a particular O(1) algorithm might be infeasible but most of the ones we use aren't.
18:17:24 <Slereah> That sounds a bit racist to judge a class from a few bad apples!
18:18:01 <quintopia> s/a few bad apples/the majority of the bunch/
18:19:27 <Bike> i know you're joking and all but don't trivialize racism, please.
18:19:27 * boily colle des pommes sur Slereah
18:20:06 <Bike> feasibility is an informal concept. it is what it is.
18:20:28 <quintopia> the golden pommes de soleil or ... the silver pommes de la lune?
18:20:54 <quintopia> Slereah: all Unnecessary programs are O(0)!
18:21:22 <Slereah> Well there's only one O(0) program
18:21:30 <boily> quintopia: I'd go with a golden apple. you know, something something kallisti something...
18:21:42 <Slereah> I'm not sure O(0) makes sense
18:23:14 <Bike> "[f(x) = O(g(x)) if and only if there is a positive constant M such that for all sufficiently large values of x, f(x) is at most M multiplied by g(x) in absolute value."
18:23:25 <Bike> an annoying definition i can never remember
18:24:04 <Bike> this implies that if f = O(0) then f is 0, probably.
18:24:09 <Slereah> I guess O(0) makes sense for the empty program then
18:26:41 <Bike> multiply the Ms of an O(1) by -i, and voila.
18:27:43 <Slereah> Are the computational classes machine dependant?
18:28:03 <Slereah> I seem to recall that some algorithms are faster in certain paradigm
18:28:26 <Bike> that's what oracles are for, probably.
18:29:22 <Slereah> I mean within the TC class of computers
18:29:55 <Bike> but like, say for ripple-carry addition, you say it's linear in the number of digits; that basically means that the time is a linear function of how much an operation taken as primitive (adding digits) takes
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18:34:50 <quintopia> boily: isn't eris the moon goddess?
18:35:06 <quintopia> why do i associate eris with the moon somehow?
18:36:01 <quintopia> Bike: that implies that O(0) and O(1) mean the same thing :)
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18:37:52 <boily> psychological answer.
18:38:05 <myname> if i have a function f: A x P(A) - > R
18:38:15 <myname> what the hell is f(.,A)?
18:39:12 <quintopia> and . means plug in the whole set?
18:39:32 <quintopia> eh i don't know. but it's still a function into the reals
18:39:52 <boily> P(A) means you had issues with your mother when you were young.
18:40:33 <myname> i have never seen f(. in any way
18:42:17 <ais523> myname: I've seen people use - as an implicit lambda variable
18:42:25 <ais523> as in, f(_,A) means \x.f(x,A)
18:43:19 <myname> well, it says it should be a vector
18:46:49 <lexande> myname: what do you mean? it depends what f and A are. for example if A is the empty set then it's the empty function.
18:47:21 <Bike> i think myname is asking about notation.
18:49:15 <lexande> oh, yeah presumably that's a lambda variable
18:49:43 <myname> that sounds strange in this context, but i will take it for now
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18:57:57 <shachaf> ais523: Sometimes people even use two -s! It's great.
18:58:44 <shachaf> As in Hom(f(-),-) ~ Hom(-,g(-))
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19:00:59 <boily> shachaf: I refuse you adjunction.
19:01:08 * boily still doesn't understand adjunctions. :(
19:01:23 <ais523> boily: I only understand them from the axioms, and intuitively
19:01:25 <myname> i don'2 get the advantage of saying "f(.,A) is in the core" instead of "for every x in A, f(x,A) is in the core"
19:01:28 <ais523> I don't get the in-between bits
19:01:59 <ais523> like, in a closed category, you have (A×B)=>C === A=>(B=>C)
19:02:06 <ais523> which is the main interesting point
19:02:42 <ais523> the main interesting thing you can do in a closed category is to tensor morphisms backwards
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19:27:44 <shachaf> ais523: Well, that's usually the definition of =>.
19:28:15 <shachaf> (Note that the two =>s on the right side aren't the same thing.)
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19:30:06 <quintopia> boily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YLy4j8EZIk
19:32:55 <boily> that video will be at home watched.
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19:37:47 <ais523> that's the definition on objects
19:37:55 <ais523> there's a definition on morphisms too but it's more complex
19:40:40 <boily> (->) -> (->) => >>> -> => -> >>> × >>> -> => -> >>> => (->) -> (->)
19:41:42 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean.
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19:42:18 <shachaf> Or maybe I do understand, actually, will look again in a little while.
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20:34:14 <scarf> fizzie: are you named after a train? someone in another channel just said that the train they were on wasn't fizzie
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20:36:47 <fizzie> scarf: I am not named after a train. But that sounds curious.
20:37:12 <HackEgo> 820) <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
20:37:24 <scarf> fizzie: they just referenced HackEgo quote 820
20:37:38 <scarf> must be following this channel for some reason
20:37:41 <boily> other people can HackEgo?
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20:37:51 <HackEgo> Oj742: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:38:05 <boily> scarf: why on fungot would people want to follow the chännel...
20:38:06 <fungot> boily: which includes themselves. if they were fnord. amazing restaurant. even the wrong bits be painted as a string? examples that i have
20:38:22 <fizzie> (I tried googling for "fizzie train" but mostly got "Fizzie Vixen"'s Vine stuff.
20:38:34 <kmc> traaaaain!
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20:39:40 <boily> oh fungot. I just understood fizzie's pectopah.
20:39:40 <fungot> boily: i use a combination of ( for the bytecode compiler could work well
20:40:07 <boily> fungot: I'll let that unbalanced ( slip this time, you vile unkarmic bot.
20:40:07 <fungot> boily: and my debugging usually revolves around ( define low-level in terms of s-expressions ( i don't expect you to go to a public school? remind me not to
20:40:19 <boily> fungot: you're stretching your luck too far, young'un.
20:40:20 <fungot> boily: i can't believe i said that
20:40:26 <boily> fungot: me neither.
20:43:40 -!- constant has changed nick to variable.
20:44:23 <fizzie> I don't remember what 476 is about at all.
20:44:51 <HackEgo> 476) <Taneb> I think it's fizzie against everyone atm <Taneb> AND EVERYONE IS WINNING <Taneb> EXCEPT FIZZIE
20:45:09 <Bike> maybe it was a race to make you not remember itself
20:46:45 <boily> Taneb: do you know?
20:47:10 <Taneb> it was the other Taneb
20:47:21 <fizzie> Ah, the usual explanation.
20:47:35 <boily> the one who Taneb is not. mystery explained.
20:48:00 <Taneb> `?people who taneb is not
20:48:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?people: not found
20:48:04 <Taneb> `? people who taneb is not
20:48:07 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
20:48:19 <Bike> can't help but notice a lack of ngevd
20:48:47 <Bike> `pastelogs AND EVERYONE IS WINNING
20:48:59 <fizzie> It seems to have been a #esoteric-minecraft quote.
20:49:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1861
20:49:46 <fizzie> About a dorf furtress game.
20:49:56 <fizzie> In which I guess there's a convention to name folks after #esotericers?
20:50:01 <Bike> how do you 'win' dorf furtressx
20:50:26 <int-e> @tell oerjan I didn't add any new newlines to @run or change the space handling, all I did was increase a constant. I didn't touch the code, though I considered it. https://github.com/int-e/lambdabot/commits/master is up-to-date except for the 200 -> 350 change in lambdabot-core/src/Lambdabot/OutputFilter.hs (textwidth).
20:51:36 <fizzie> <elliott_> Taneb: Who is on a rampage currently? <Taneb> Just fizzie <Taneb> He's a mason
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20:51:58 <fizzie> <Taneb> What do you call a dorf with no nose? <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie? <Taneb> Yup
20:52:03 <fizzie> Sometimes reading stuff feels kinda weird.
20:52:18 <Bike> where'd you get it
20:52:24 <Taneb> fizzie, I presume you're not a dorf, too
20:52:28 <fizzie> It came with the face.
20:52:35 <Taneb> Speaking of dwarf fortress
20:52:42 <Taneb> @tell Phantom_Hoover ...
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21:16:02 <L8D> : SUM ( + SIZE 1 EQUAL NOT ) WHILE ; 10 RANGE SUM .
21:16:41 <L8D> or: : sum ( + size 1 = ! ) while ; 10 range sum .
21:17:35 <boily> !forth : SUM ( + SIZE 1 EQUAL NOT ) WHILE ; 10 RANGE SUM .
21:17:37 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.3307:1: expected control flow stack item \ : SUM ( + SIZE 1 EQUAL NOT ) >>>WHILE<<< ; 10 RANGE SUM . \ Backtrace: \ $7FBF20466988 throw \ $7FBF20476918 c(abort") \ $7FBF20476AC8 cs-item? \ $7FBF20477440 CS-ROLL
21:20:55 <fizzie> Presumably that's the suggested Forthoid, and not actual Forth.
21:21:04 <fizzie> !forth : sum 0 begin over while + repeat ; 0 1 5 2 4 3 sum . \ sum of a 0-terminated list
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21:26:19 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover Phantom__Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot shikhin SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
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21:26:38 <boily> sorry. couldn't resist.
21:28:26 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
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21:37:19 <FireFly> Sometimes I'm happy I'm not on the List
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21:54:58 <fizzie> Thing I like: when someone writes a long S-expression in Scheme (or other such), and needs to put some two dozen )s after the last non-) character, and decides to put them like http://sprunge.us/INhI
21:56:21 <fizzie> (I've seen that happen a total of one time.)
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22:25:52 <Taneb> When someone writes "CRINGE" on IRC you know it's a pun well done
22:27:43 <impomatic> !forth : i begin #tib @ >in @ = if tib 50 accept #tib ! 0 >in ! then bl word find dup if state @ = if , else execute then else dup rot count >number if state @ if last @ dup @ last ! dp ! then abort then drop2 state @ if ['] lit , , then then again ; i | 2 2 + .
22:27:44 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.3951:1: Undefined word \ : i begin #tib @ >in @ = if tib 50 accept #tib ! 0 >in ! then bl word find dup if state @ = if , else execute then else dup rot count >number if state @ if last @ dup @ last ! dp ! then abort then >>>drop2<<< state @ if ['] lit , , then then again ; i | 2 2 + . \ Backtrace: \ $7F226ACC9A68 throw \ $7F226ACDFC68 no.extensions
22:27:59 <impomatic> !forth : int begin #tib @ >in @ = if tib 50 accept #tib ! 0 >in ! then bl word find dup if state @ = if , else execute then else dup rot count >number if state @ if last @ dup @ last ! dp ! then abort then drop2 state @ if ['] lit , , then then again ; int | 2 2 + .
22:28:00 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.3997:1: Undefined word \ : int begin #tib @ >in @ = if tib 50 accept #tib ! 0 >in ! then bl word find dup if state @ = if , else execute then else dup rot count >number if state @ if last @ dup @ last ! dp ! then abort then >>>drop2<<< state @ if ['] lit , , then then again ; int | 2 2 + . \ Backtrace: \ $7FCE3F9ADA68 throw \ $7FCE3F9C3C68 no.extensions
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22:38:20 <oerjan> nice of the storm to fully hit just as i was going back home
22:38:37 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/ampdE1n.gif
22:39:19 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 48m 52s ago: I didn't add any new newlines to @run or change the space handling, all I did was increase a constant. I didn't touch the code, though I considered it. https://github.com/int-e/lambdabot/commits/master is up-to-date except for the 200 -> 350 change in lambdabot-core/src/Lambdabot/OutputFilter.hs (textwidth).
22:40:14 <oerjan> @tell int-e i guess it was done before your time then.
22:40:27 * oerjan looks suspiciously at elliott
22:40:45 <shachaf> oerjan: might also look suspiciously at mokus
22:41:28 <oerjan> irssi's tab completion, so primitive
22:41:46 <oerjan> cannot take me trying to tab complete someone not here. or its own name.
22:42:40 <int-e> Maintainer: James Cook <mokus@deepbondi.net>
22:42:58 -!- muskrat_ has changed nick to muskrat.
22:44:14 <int-e> oerjan: you asked who mokus is.
22:45:40 <oerjan> is that somewhere in lambdabot's code.
22:45:52 <int-e> look at the .cabal file
22:46:24 <int-e> https://github.com/mokus0/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot/lambdabot.cabal
22:46:37 <int-e> or http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lambdabot :)
22:46:48 <oerjan> http://www.deepbondi.net/ looks promising.
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23:02:36 <oerjan> @tell slereah <Slereah> Why is EXPTIME considered unfeasable <-- "For every polynomial-time algorithm you have, there is an exponential algorithm that I would rather run." -- Alan Perlis
23:03:00 <Bike> ---------[---------
23:03:48 <oerjan> Bike: are you removing tabs in brainfuck
23:05:08 <int-e> ugh. +[,>+<---------[>-]>[<+++++++++.>->]<<]
23:05:57 <int-e> I probably messed that up, I'm out of practice.
23:07:34 <int-e> I should simply do +[,---------[+++++++++.[-]]+]
23:08:49 <oerjan> int-e: you're not halting at eof
23:09:19 <int-e> so which eof convention do you favor?
23:09:41 <lambdabot> Poll results for olist (Open): update=932
23:09:41 <oerjan> 0 usually, since that's what the bots around here use
23:10:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i just realized that @vote won't show the list of names anyway, so you still need to @poll-results
23:10:05 <int-e> so ,[---------[+++++++++.[-]],]
23:11:19 <Bike> wait, how's the middle loop ever halt
23:11:34 <Bike> or. wait. nevermind.
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23:33:47 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't understand that quote
23:34:02 <oklopol> wait i read that as alan turing
23:35:03 <oklopol> (that that it changes anything)
23:35:43 <oerjan> oklopol: it means that the formal complexity class of an algorithm may not mean much in practice.
23:35:54 <oerjan> example: simplex method
23:36:33 <oklopol> yeah okay i guess it changes things if it was someone who lived much after turing
23:36:53 <oerjan> also that constant overhead may be more important than O() class for problem sizes you actually care about
23:37:05 <oerjan> at least that's how read it.
23:37:18 <kmc> one remarkable thing about EXPTIME is that it's actually known to be different from P
23:38:00 <oerjan> it's not _that_ remarkable, time and space hierarchies are pretty fine masked _separately_.
23:38:19 <oerjan> it's just hard to compare time with space.
23:38:21 <kmc> saying it's remarkable is somewhat tongue-in-cheek
23:38:39 <kmc> given all the classes which aren't known to be distinct from P
23:38:43 <kmc> time with space, or deterministic with nondeterministic
23:38:54 <oerjan> wait can you say "fine masked" in english
23:39:04 <kmc> i'm not familiar with that phrase
23:39:08 <kmc> whatsit mean
23:40:06 <FreeFull> Then there are the classes for quantum computers
23:43:17 <Bike> still not familiar with this idiom
23:44:28 <oerjan> now that has to be actual english.
23:45:04 <Bike> perhaps i'm just thick.
23:46:03 <oerjan> next try "fine-grained"
23:48:25 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah, P ?= BQP ?= NP is real important
23:49:31 <oerjan> i think it would be funny if someone found out a way to simulate quantum systems efficiently with classical computers, and as a side effect broke RSA
23:49:45 <kmc> "Love #StackOverflow? Want it for your team? Check out http://quandora.com" ok you can't just take the name "Quora" and stick a few more letters in the middle
23:50:06 <kmc> that would be funny
23:50:24 <kmc> I think it would be funny to get a totally non-constructive proof of P = NP
23:51:08 <kmc> or a proof which produces a polynomial-time algorithm which is way too slow to ever use, and which resists improvement
23:51:18 <kmc> or a proof that P ?= NP is independent of the axioms of ZFC
23:51:58 <shachaf> i think the point is that kmc likes to frustrate mathematicians
23:52:18 <Bike> five worlds etc
23:52:26 <oerjan> what about an algorithm for SAT that seems to work extremely fast but which no one can prove that it always works
23:52:42 <Bike> imo, a good paper
23:52:53 <kmc> that is a good paper
23:53:14 <oerjan> maybe i should read it once, i guess it has all those options.
23:53:27 <shachaf> now, are you referring to http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FiveWorlds.html or http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Five_Worlds
23:53:40 <shachaf> (have found the actual paper but i like that those two links were first)
23:53:46 <oerjan> shachaf: i vaguely suspect not the latter
23:53:59 <FreeFull> What about a proof that P > NP?
23:54:23 <oerjan> FreeFull: well then you're just breaking mathematics
23:54:24 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, well, i vaguely suspect not you
23:54:55 <oerjan> P <= NP is pretty trivial.
23:55:14 <oerjan> (all P turing machines are also NP turing machines)
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23:57:56 <kmc> likewise P <= BPP <= NP because a BPP machine is like a NP machine but it has to accept on "lots of paths" not just one
23:58:28 <kmc> we did an exercise about the class BPP^NP which my friend decided means "Black Panther Party with NP oracle"
23:58:40 <Bike> puttin that in my next sci-fi epic
23:59:23 <oerjan> wait is BPP <= NP really obvious
23:59:47 <oerjan> NP doesn't allow you to count paths
00:00:21 <oerjan> both reducing to #P is obvious.
00:00:57 <kmc> ah, yeah, i'm wrong
00:01:09 <kmc> "The relationship between BPP and NP is unknown: it is not known if BPP is a subset of NP, NP is a subset of BPP or if they are incomparable."
00:01:37 <Bike> P is still a subset of BPP though, right
00:04:38 <shachaf> nooodl: genericLength is almost never a good idea.
00:04:44 <shachaf> Pretty much the only use case is lazy naturals.
00:05:20 * oerjan unplugs laptop, just in case
00:06:07 <oerjan> it's about time for the monthly recommended uncharging, anyway
00:07:27 <kmc> shachaf: what if my list has more than 2^64 elements? er hmm...
00:07:52 <oerjan> i guess that's more interesting on 32-bit machines
00:08:21 <kmc> i'm so over 32-bit machines
00:08:28 <shachaf> kmc: With 64-bit Int it doesn't matter much realistically. With 32-bit Int it can matter, but you should *still* not use genericLength.
00:08:32 <lambdabot> genericLength (_:l) = 1 + genericLength l
00:08:41 <kmc> maybe by the time Servo is a product even phones will all be 64-bit
00:08:46 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
00:08:46 <kmc> that would be cool
00:09:01 <int-e> > map Seq.length (iterate (\s -> s <> s) (Seq.singleton ())) !! 63
00:09:08 <kmc> 32-bit architectures are a real problem if you want lightweight threads because there isn't enough address space for all the stacks
00:09:20 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
00:09:29 <lambdabot> poll-show <poll> Shows all choices for some poll
00:09:53 <oerjan> @poll-add remove@src makeitactuallywork
00:09:53 <lambdabot> usage: @poll-add <poll> with "ThisTopic" style names
00:10:39 <oerjan> @choice-add remove@src makeItActuallyWork
00:10:39 <lambdabot> New candidate "makeItActuallyWork", added to poll "remove@src".
00:10:51 <oerjan> @vote remove@src makeItActuallyWork
00:10:51 <lambdabot> The "remove@src" poll is closed, sorry !
00:11:10 <int-e> @poll-show remove@src
00:11:22 <Taneb> oerjan, what's your favourite turing tarpit
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00:15:45 <oerjan> Taneb: underload or ///, maybe slightly the former
00:16:23 <oerjan> wait is this for your essay
00:16:52 <oerjan> THIS IS A GREAT INVASION OF PRIVACY AND I WANT ROYALTIES
00:17:17 <Taneb> I just wanted an example of a turing tarpit
00:17:17 <kmc> Taneb is writing an essay?
00:17:26 <Taneb> kmc, I have to write an essay in the next 9 or so hours
00:17:42 <Taneb> About a classic Computer Science paper of my choice
00:17:47 <Taneb> I chose On Computable Numbers
00:17:58 <Bike> shoulda done five worlds. smh
00:18:12 <oerjan> if you want it really tarpitty you can do underload with just :()^ or /// with just /\
00:18:34 <shachaf> Taneb: can i have royalties too
00:18:48 <Taneb> shachaf, if you pay for me to live in CA
00:19:29 <kmc> tarpittiful
00:19:45 <kmc> we'll name that bridge after him yet
00:19:46 <shachaf> int-e: well, Taneb is actually in .uk
00:19:55 <kmc> fucking oakland wouldn't go along
00:20:29 <kmc> we just need to make sure all the san franciscans who move to oakland due to outrageous rent in SF will remain loyal to the emperor
00:20:35 <Taneb> shachaf, although I have contacts in .nl and .au
00:20:42 <Taneb> And .it, come to think of it
00:20:51 <kmc> also there's a new bar in the Tenderloin called Emperor Norton's Boozeland
00:20:55 <kmc> i've yet to go
00:21:00 <kmc> I assume I will either love it or hate it intensely
00:22:23 <Bike> did norton even drink
00:23:04 <kmc> don't know
00:23:12 <Taneb> I really need to get a game of Diana: Warrior Princess going
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00:25:10 <kmc> shachaf: there is royalty in .ca though
00:27:33 <shachaf> emperor Taneb for president
00:28:33 <oerjan> "Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco," which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars."
00:28:57 <kmc> if outsourced royalty counts
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00:30:21 <shachaf> oerjan: how much is that in 2013 dollars
00:30:49 <oerjan> hm can frink convert that
00:31:52 <Sgeo> https://github.com/ngerakines/commitment/blob/master/commit_messages.txt
00:32:58 <Sgeo> ...I may be guilty of a few of those
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00:33:42 <oerjan> `frink 25 dollars_1872 -> dollar
00:33:53 <HackEgo> Error when reading Consumer Price Index file from FTP site. \ Will use static file for historical U.S. currency conversions. \ 463.23673749815968985
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00:35:16 <oerjan> i suppose that shouldn't be _too_ out of date.
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00:48:32 <Taneb> What does the fact that things can be accidentally turing complete show
00:48:58 <Taneb> This essay is in in 9 hours and I'm 50 words short
00:49:01 <shachaf> that the world is a bad place
00:49:52 <Taneb> Help I've reached the point where I'm being really introspective about my chest hair
00:49:59 <oerjan> that we're doomed once our toasters accidentally turn sentient.
00:50:28 <oerjan> are your chest hairs turing complete
00:50:39 <Taneb> I don't think so but on the other hand bathroom tiles are
00:50:48 <shachaf> kmc: did you know there was an iso standard for entering unicode codepoints
00:51:07 <shachaf> actually it's just what urxvt does
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01:09:15 <kmc> yeah i think i've mentioned it here
01:31:58 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
01:33:02 <lexande> fungot: but are you a constant function or a variable function?
01:33:02 <fungot> lexande: i'm ol' x86 user ;p http://www.klubitus.org/ fnord/ fnord
01:33:58 <oerjan> function: fun fact, all except one of your nicks collides with someone else in the first 3 letters
01:34:42 * oerjan vaguely wonders if function is changing nick automatically and has been idling this whole time
01:34:46 <fungot> lexande: how old are you?" " this section describe infrared connection troubleshooting procedure." hahah, same with perl/ java/ io/ file.html
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01:35:45 <oerjan> you have fungot in its own window?
01:35:45 <fungot> oerjan: different people have different preferences. some people don't
01:35:56 <oerjan> fungot: i guess you're right.
01:35:56 <fungot> oerjan: hmm how can drscheme fnord factorial that fast and with no examples.
01:36:09 <oerjan> fungot: it's a mystery
01:36:09 <fungot> oerjan: hehe... my wife? is she at home enjoying capitalism?. yarly nowai fnord if then else
01:36:35 <oerjan> fungot: that sounds expensive, also i didn't know you were married.
01:36:35 <fungot> oerjan: external 1g scsi hd. but that may be very good for writing little scripts." how many people use religion as an answer
01:37:00 <function> oerjan: no, I don't change nick automaticall
01:37:08 <lexande> oerjan: i started saying something about fungot, and then i won
01:37:08 <fungot> lexande: but why would you need to check
01:37:11 <function> oerjan: which nick doesn't collide ?
01:37:19 <function> lexande: I'm a mutable constant function
01:37:46 <lexande> constants are just a kind of function
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02:58:13 <Bike> http://discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/futures/ of course
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04:11:51 <kmc> "Horny Ghost Of Osama Bin Laden : Rise Of The Ghost and over one million other books are available for Amazon Kindle. [Learn more]"
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04:29:57 <nooodl> note to self: when someone asks me what an applicative functor is i have to tell them "they're like halfway between boxes and burritos"
04:31:49 <kmc> https://twitter.com/bos31337/status/402212508187897856
04:34:29 <shachaf> fungot has a twitter account?
04:34:29 <fungot> shachaf: why no pointers? me scared by pointer fnord n' stuff?
04:35:04 <kmc> fungot: are you a three-star programmer
04:35:04 <fungot> kmc: i wish i were a fan of the fnord and passing it to number-string with a radix of 8 to just generate a simple html webpage.
04:35:13 <Bike> how often are you asked what an applicative functor is
04:35:16 <kmc> fungot: what do you think of http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/
04:35:16 <fungot> kmc: you are, 6 instructions. i figured that
04:35:30 <kmc> fungot: ya got me
04:35:30 <fungot> kmc: do you think the extension was? just some random ideas and the thought alone makes me want to kill someone. i'll make up something
04:38:35 <shachaf> fungot: how many instructions am i
04:38:35 <fungot> shachaf: although really all programming concepts out there in the begin clause of define-structure then? ;p it might make sense
04:38:45 <fungot> shachaf: there was a major transition to 32-bit architectures in all sorts of things
04:39:10 <shachaf> fungot: 32-bit addresses aren't enough for kmc
04:40:50 <shachaf> fungot: you're the seriously best bot
04:40:51 <fungot> shachaf: zomg repeat!! but that low-level stuff frightens and confuses me, so to have binary data combined with gc'ed data i'd have to special-case literals; you treat them as a tad) n
04:40:56 <shachaf> fungot: you're the seriously best bot
04:41:10 <shachaf> last time i'm taking directions from a bot
04:41:51 <kmc> ah, to be young again, and also a robot
04:43:41 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/ah-to-be-young-rich-white-male-collegeeducated-str,34320/
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04:47:19 <kmc> coppro|spoiled
04:49:50 <nooodl> markov chains from sicp and the king james bible
04:51:28 <nooodl> aka "the description in the header"
04:52:40 <kmc> what it says on the tin
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07:20:40 <fizzie> shachaf: It hasn't tweeted for a while, though.
07:20:52 <fizzie> (The script might be broken.)
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07:49:53 <fizzie> "Date of publication nulldate; date of current version nulldate."
07:51:49 <myname> seems like you have the first and only version
07:59:20 <fizzie> Also it seems that in the acknowledgements footnote I've claimed that the "recognition experimenters" (rather than experiments) have been performed using computational resources from the Triton cluster.
07:59:29 <fizzie> I guess that means that I'm a program after all.
08:00:50 <kmc> not a train?
08:03:02 <Bike> http://acko.net/blog/on-asmjs/
08:04:10 <kmc> nope nope nope
08:04:25 <kmc> fuck that guy for his rant about how feminism is bullshit and what about the men: http://acko.net/blog/storms-and-teacups/
08:04:36 <kmc> also for his absurd LOOK AT ME web design which distracts from the content and melts my computer
08:04:37 <fizzie> Maybe some kind of a computer-simulated train.
08:04:39 <kmc> in conclusion, nope
08:04:49 <Bike> oh. didn't know.
08:04:53 <kmc> fizzie: am I a computer dreaming i'm a train? or a train dreaming i'm a computer?
08:05:52 <kmc> the exercises in model checking class did often involve trains and elevators
08:06:11 <kmc> and the prof had a story about being hired by the italian government to prove that the trains wouldn't run into each other
08:06:15 <Bike> hehe the first page of that hits like half my antifeminism bingo card.
08:06:19 <kmc> i know right
08:06:35 <kmc> i haven't been able to make it all the way through (which I guess means I have no right to criticize, according to the first section)
08:06:44 <kmc> instead I open it, scroll to a random point, get intensely angry, close it
08:07:08 <kmc> there's usually a way for humans to fuck up so that the trains run into each other, anyway, though
08:07:11 <kmc> , isn't it
08:07:39 <Bike> i think i've seen like one video of a head on train collision, but i might have imagiend int
08:07:48 <kmc> head-on-train collision
08:07:52 <kmc> those happen a lot on caltrain :/
08:08:06 <Bike> i've mostly seen train-hits-incidental-vehicle
08:08:09 <kmc> "ICE 3 high speed trains use electrochromatic glass panels between the passenger compartment and the driver's cabin. The standard mode is clear, and can be switched by the driver to frosted/translucent, mainly to conceal "unwanted sights" from passengers' view, for example in the case of (human) obstacles."
08:09:06 <kmc> caltrain runs right through the center of a densely populated corridor and mostly at grade
08:09:13 <kmc> so there are a lot of vehicle collisions but also a lot of suicides
08:11:24 <fizzie> We had an elevator exercise in the model checking class.
08:11:29 <fizzie> No trains that I can recall.
08:13:28 <kmc> we were given a puzzle about how two trams could pass each other through a bridge that looks like -=-=- , i.e., three single track sections with two passing sections between them
08:13:35 <kmc> based on some bridge in amsterdam supposedly
08:14:18 <kmc> a protocol for the trams to follow which never results in them getting stuck or backing up
08:14:30 <kmc> i find it interesting that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauntlet_track is used for some bridges rather than actual single tracking
08:15:02 <fizzie> Our class was based on http://spinroot.com/spin/ if I recall correctly.
08:15:16 <kmc> the instructor was the main developer
08:15:48 <fizzie> PROMELA was kind of funny to write.
08:16:36 <kmc> merging two tracks into two overlapping tracks is simpler & more reliable (no moving parts) than merging them onto one track with switches
08:17:05 <kmc> fizzie: I don't remember much about it
08:17:32 <kmc> I know it had finite state, and pattern-matching on message reception, and slightly odd syntax but nothing too awful iirc
08:17:49 <fizzie> Oh, I mostly remember the syntactical bits.
08:18:15 <fizzie> Parts of it looked very C-inspired, but then there were the oddities that really stood out with that background.
08:18:52 <fizzie> (Also "if ... fi" and "do ... od" control structures.)
08:19:00 <kmc> oh i forgot about that
08:19:52 <fizzie> I don't have anything against if..fi or do..od, it's just that e.g. procedures were "normal" brace-delimited blocks.
08:20:12 <fizzie> ("Some of my best friends are if..fi's and do..od's.")
08:34:51 <Deewiant> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76028872/kuusipalaa.png
08:35:57 <shachaf> what about "the spruce is on fire"
08:37:38 <kmc> we don't need no water let the motherfucker burn
08:44:07 <quintopia> that's a lot of definitions for one phrase
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08:58:35 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=796bHaAtlkE#t=1m hth
09:05:47 <ion> I happened to write an explanation of that to someone who asked, might as well paste it here: The words for spruce and six happen to be the same. I have no idea why. “To return” is “palata” and “to burn” is “palaa”; “I return” is “palaan” and “I burn” is “palan”. The rules of inflection just happen to make both “(it) returns” and “(it) burns” “palaa”. The word for
09:05:49 <ion> “piece” is “pala”. The inflection for “(eleventy) pieces” just happens to be “palaa”. That’s not unlike “I have a rose” and “I rose up” in English. The word for “moon” is “kuu”. The inflection for “your moon” happens to be “kuusi”.
09:08:32 <ion> shachaf: So that’s what the fox says.
09:23:44 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
09:29:12 <fizzie> ion: Wiktionary seems to indicate "kuusi" migth be both six and spruce just by accident; the number has the etymology "from Proto-Finnic *kuuci, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *kutte", while the tree is "from Proto-Uralic *kuse, *kose or *kowse".
09:29:35 <ion> Yeah, i assumed it’s just by accident, but i didn’t know the etymology of either.
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11:22:08 <fizzie> Do you folks happen to know if there are good open-sores tools to annotate PDF files?
11:22:51 <kmc> i was going to say "printer and a pen" but even printing from Linux is nigh-impossible so
11:24:14 <ion> fizzie: Xournal
11:28:02 <fizzie> kmc: I've in fact already printed the PDF, from Linux.
11:28:13 <fizzie> (But I'm supposed to return an annotated PDF.)
11:29:52 <fizzie> ion: I guess Xournal does something custom? The file I return needs to be something Adobe-compatible, I presume.
11:30:11 <ion> It lets you draw on the PDF and save it again.
11:30:16 <ion> Very useful with a wacom pad.
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11:32:16 <fizzie> From what I can tell from the manual, that would produce a PDF with scribblings on it, not a PDF with those specific annotation boxes.
11:38:12 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just rdesktop to the terminal server, it's supposed to have Adobe Acrobat X Pro on it.
11:38:56 <kmc> Give Up And Use Windows
11:40:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: Heh, there's a /C:\nppdf32Log\debuglog.txt file (as in, in the root directory) owned by root:root on kosh.org.aalto.fi. :p
11:41:18 <Deewiant> Nice, who's been running firefox as root
11:41:52 <fizzie> Maybe it's been MATLAB instead.
11:44:57 <fizzie> Wow, this PDF renders quite horribly in rdesktop-Acrobat.
11:47:17 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131128-baseline.png that's some quality horizontal alignment there
11:49:06 <kmc> vertikerning
11:51:22 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bew73APL7X4 wow hypnotizing
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12:21:00 <Deewiant> fizzie: I thought that was from adobe's pdf reader plugin for firefox
12:21:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: I get it from MATLAB's help browser, but of course the help is a mess of HTML, so it might well use the same underlying components.
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14:21:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> fungot has a twitter account? <-- pretty sure e used to have, but i think it stopped working.
14:21:54 <fungot> oerjan: http://web.archive.org/ web/ fnord/ fnord? or where the number of arguments
14:22:16 <boily> quintopia: the ball was sweet and mushy, kinda like a rice crispies square...
14:22:21 <oerjan> fungot: it's nice of you to point to the archive version, but you really shouldn't apply the fnord substitution to it
14:22:21 <fungot> oerjan: i haven't seen any ' fnord just yet.
14:22:43 <oerjan> fungot: you cannot see your own fnords? i guess that makes some sense.
14:22:43 <fungot> oerjan: fnord? catch the wind and cut off its fnord?
14:22:58 <oerjan> fungot: i have this feeling you are just messing with me.
14:22:58 <fungot> oerjan: the only motivation for the syntax
14:23:41 <boily> fungot: you are creepy.
14:23:41 <fungot> boily: they shit out rice crispies" when you ask the question
14:23:43 <oerjan> boily: i have a certain urge to `addquote that.
14:23:55 <oerjan> (um, what you said just before.)
14:24:11 <fizzie> Well, technically, the account still works, the tweeting script just might not.
14:24:58 <fizzie> Maybe I should revive it.
14:25:11 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel about getting back to the social twitosphere?
14:25:11 <fungot> fizzie: fnord) if ( *cptr fnord *cptr fnord) check the next cell ( a total of n places in under n moves, moving only one place
14:25:12 <oerjan> `pastlog twitter\.com.*fungot
14:25:13 <fungot> oerjan: ais523 can read it back in whenever it changes cons that list onto another list
14:25:57 <oerjan> `pastlog twitter\.com.*fungot
14:25:57 <fungot> oerjan: and malice fnord. but i was talking about making a whole scheme
14:26:04 <boily> @tell ais523 could you read the twitting fungot back when the cons are changed? twh.
14:26:04 <fungot> boily: that's the purpose. why write source code at all
14:26:11 <HackEgo> 2013-04-09.txt:01:51:08: <elliott> http://twitter.com/fungot
14:26:25 <boily> fungot: uhm... like, you know, like, it's my job, genre tsé.
14:26:25 <fungot> boily: maybe it's more: the public is saved from what it doesn't
14:26:59 <boily> fungot: indeed. I wouldn't want the public to start coding too much. too dangerous, imho.
14:26:59 <fungot> boily: i'll bet the fact that nothing works properly on this computer so i can't count.
14:27:09 <oerjan> fizzie: what is the one twitter account fungot follows
14:27:09 <fungot> oerjan: what were you talking about? what is the reindeer effect? odd :)
14:28:32 * oerjan just noticed that fungot mentioned rice crispies after boily did
14:28:32 <fungot> oerjan: process 4 killed. there was this comment: fnord/ guile-ref/ fnord? here's not even the current editors. they know me. you've never seen the lectures myself, but i
14:29:00 <boily> the reindeer effect is when you drop a twitter account in order to latch onto rice crispies.
14:29:35 <fizzie> oerjan: It's probably my twitter account.
14:31:00 <fizzie> Yes, that is indeed the case.
14:32:54 <fungot> boily: do you know the problem of namespace pollution problems.) ack!
14:33:36 <boily> fungot: I do know. as a certain bespectacled girl who wields blood would say, 不愉快です。
14:33:36 <fungot> boily: gnu tend not to go in early for some project instead of eager... then you could shine lasers on them to make smart decisions or act out some kind of syntax is that just x. z)
14:34:48 <oerjan> wielding blood sounds creepy
14:34:50 <boily> fungot: am I able to make you trip onto some predetermined keywords? what are the gnu commandline options for that? poulet, orange, navet, melon, luffa, kiwi?
14:34:50 <fungot> boily: mmm.... montreal smoked meat. :) why do you say it'd work particularly well on many modern windows-based platforms"
14:34:58 <boily> oerjan: it's a plot point.
14:35:10 <boily> fungot: yé! montréal smoked meat!
14:35:10 <fungot> boily: ( " a gentle introduction to ml" is much harder than with anything else
14:35:28 <boily> fungot: indeed. ML is hardcore. those Haskell wussies don't know nothing.
14:37:22 <oerjan> it has a formal definition, which sadly only half exists because it's paywalled, iiuc.
14:38:58 <oerjan> i live by the principle that information that isn't freely available doesn't really exist.
14:39:55 <boily> your explanation dh, even if ML by itself dnh.
14:40:24 <oerjan> i think they recently released an older version of the definition.
14:41:34 <boily> imo, paywalls are there to protect a lack of information. case in point, about the only thriving mainstream news source in Québec switched to a tablet version.
14:42:03 <boily> (well. printed and or textual. we're still stuck with TVA and suchlike when turning on a television.)
14:43:05 <oerjan> i wonder if the released version is from before they switched to the value restriction.
14:44:18 <oerjan> (ML used to have a complicated kind of purity annotation on type variables.)
14:45:19 <oerjan> but then someone realized (or borrowed from ocaml) that you can just restrict generalization of types to actual functions given syntactically.
14:51:07 <fizzie> "<fungot> gnu tend not to go in early for some project instead of eager... then you could shine lasers on them to make smart decisions" fungot explains how to make the GNU project work.
14:51:08 <fungot> fizzie: 30 meg or so. i take it back a few times when i get h. in case you hadn't noticed, i was
14:53:26 <boily> the whole GNU project fits in 30 MB, and to work need to be shined upon by lasers.
14:59:31 <boily> (I strongly suspect every GNU application is only emacs in disguise.)
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15:46:59 <oerjan> <Bike> http://acko.net/blog/on-asmjs/ <-- so, this guy has to be blind, right?
15:54:08 <mroman_> I need someone with a brain
15:55:13 <mroman_> A term in conjunctive normal form is only satisfable if every subterm is?
15:55:57 <oerjan> ok conjuctive is where the and's are outermost, right?
15:56:01 <mroman_> Because all subterms are AND-ed
15:56:23 <mroman_> All Subterms consist only of OR-ed variables and a Term consists of AND-ed subterms
15:56:28 <oerjan> well then yes, that's a requirement.
15:56:49 <mroman_> Every subterm esentially describes a "non-solution"
15:56:54 <oerjan> (of course if it were also sufficient, things would be very simply)
15:57:06 * boily recalls his «Circuits logiques» classes, with Karnaugh tables and smokeless chips...
15:57:35 <mroman_> (a v !b) ^ (a v b v c) tells us, that (0, 1, x) and (0, 0, 0) can't be solutions
15:59:22 <oerjan> you can just put a big "not" around the whole and apply deMorgan.
16:00:58 <mroman_> Due to that, the complexity of determining if the whole term is satisfiable is linear in the number of "don't care"s
16:01:28 <oerjan> this is NP-complete, you know.
16:01:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:02:06 <oerjan> all known algorithms are exponential.
16:02:41 <mroman_> Consider exact 3-SAT with 6 Variables
16:03:35 <mroman_> I'm aware that it must be exponential ;)
16:04:34 <oerjan> (if you can _prove_ it, you have a million dollars hth)
16:04:50 <mroman_> It's exponential in the number of "don't care"s
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16:12:09 <mroman_> I think there should be an algorithm that is exponential in number of subterms
16:12:30 <mroman_> 8^m where m is the Numbers of Terms for 3-SAT
16:16:06 <mroman_> because a single subterm is satisfiable in (2^n)-1 ways
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16:22:01 <oerjan> well you can have one that is exponential in number of variables, which is no more than 3*subterms
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18:06:25 <boily> back from lunch. the accentèd soup was good, but the place was cold.
18:34:46 <lexande> what does "kuusi palaa" mean?
18:35:16 <fizzie> All those things listed in the image?
18:36:06 <fizzie> Also see ion's comprehensive explanation.
18:36:25 <fizzie> Huh, "This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled!"
18:36:50 -!- yiyus has joined.
18:38:21 <lexande> oh, it already got linked here, i see
18:40:35 <fizzie> There's a "joke" related to translating "voi äiti, joulukuusi palaa!" to Swedish in an intententionally wrong way; it goes something like "smör mamma, julsex kommer tillbaka!"
18:42:15 -!- olsner has joined.
18:42:59 <boily> julsex? is that some kind of twisted Santa Fetish?
18:44:05 <fizzie> Them Swedes collapse en:six and en:sex, probably for some good reason.
18:44:25 <Slereah> http://www.graficaobscura.com/future/futnotes.html
18:44:27 <fizzie> (Also itself a subject of much giggling in primary school language lessons.)
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18:47:34 <boily> Slereah: “try indenting from right to left” ???
18:47:57 <fizzie> A sextet too, I guess.
18:48:43 <olsner> I doubt there is any good reason for using sex for six
18:52:20 <boily> anarchists are a strangely structured bunch...
18:53:16 <Slereah> Except : "Structured programming = slow. "
18:54:42 <Slereah> Though I'd love to see a modern OS programmed entirely efficiently
18:54:53 <Slereah> Although I'm pretty sure it would cost a million dollars
18:54:56 <int-e> How does that work? "I just want to code, I don't want to abide by any structure. It slows me down."
18:55:44 <Slereah> I guess they want to code efficiently instead of maintainably
18:55:57 <Slereah> Which is a nice idea in theory
18:56:10 <Slereah> But I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to pick up the project later on
18:56:46 <boily> if I apply their principles, all I'll achieve is unusable-code-that-only-works-on-my-machine-today.
18:56:47 <Bike> so, not a nice idea in theory.
18:57:05 <Slereah> boily : But boy will it run smoothly!
18:57:22 <Bike> until you try to install something and it messes everything up.
18:57:30 <Bike> usability means more than 'speed'.
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18:58:38 <Bike> but there's no advantage.
18:59:22 <Slereah> If you run it for one thing on a dedicated machine, should be fine
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18:59:43 <Bike> But if you're running it for "one thing" you might as well just put that one thing on the hardware.
18:59:46 <boily> Slereah: that I can't deny. but it's like doing lines of code as if doing lines of coke. instant gratification, but empty.
19:00:06 <Slereah> Hardware is expensive though!
19:00:13 <boily> beuh. who changed `ello?
19:00:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ey: not found
19:00:21 <Slereah> boily : You say that like it's a bad thing
19:00:22 <Bike> well i guess we can't buy a computer then
19:00:32 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/ello: No such file or directory
19:00:39 <Slereah> A computer is probably cheaper than building a dedicated CPU
19:00:44 <tswett> `paste /hackenv/bin/ello
19:00:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//hackenv/bin/ello
19:00:56 <Bike> by 'on hardware' i meant just putting it on a regular cpu, but without an os
19:01:17 <Slereah> Isn't that still software?
19:01:24 <Slereah> Software doesn't mean "on an OS"
19:01:46 <Slereah> I guess you can put it in a static memory, if that counts?
19:01:55 <tswett> Yeah, but doesn't "on software" mean "on an OS"?
19:02:08 <boily> software means all that can't be physically kicked around.
19:03:11 <tswett> So, right. ABOUT LINEAR TYPING. You can make a linear type system out of Haskell's type system just by adding one operator, ~, the dual operator. a with b becomes ~(Either ~a ~b), a par b becomes ~(~a, ~b), bottom becomes ~(), and so on.
19:03:56 <tswett> And this raises the question, what does ~ mean? It acts suspiciously like (-> e), where "e" is some universally quantified type variable.
19:04:43 <tswett> But where do you put the quantifiers?
19:05:25 <tswett> Oh, there's my problem. I was putting the quantifiers in Zimbabwe.
19:05:45 <Bike> zimbabwe is to the left of some places, to be fair.
19:05:58 <boily> @tell oerjan can I learn Zimbabwe's quantification?
19:06:13 <tswett> Let me see whether or not Zimbabwe is to my left right now.
19:06:44 <boily> tswett: what are your current approximate coördinates?
19:07:08 <tswett> 42.9612° N, 85.6557° W
19:08:00 <tswett> Accurate to within a few tenths of a degree.
19:10:00 <tswett> Really, all of linear logic's production rules can be translated directly into Haskell, practically unchanged!
19:10:04 <tswett> I just don't know what will come out.
19:10:06 <quintopia> boily: i'm sorry it was mushy. they were very crunchy at the beginning of the month.
19:12:15 <boily> quintopia: don't be sorry, I quite enjoyed it. the sweetness was surprising, though.
19:12:45 <boily> tswett: thanks. for scientific purposes, could you provide me with you body weigh?
19:13:59 <tswett> Probably accurate to within 5 lbs.
19:14:24 <boily> that's much appreciated. and strangely precise. I am disturbed; this doesn't happen often...
19:15:01 <tswett> You don't usually get body weights accurate to within 5 lbs?
19:15:12 <quintopia> also have people here been enjoying the autogenerated hackernews headlines? they use the same technique as fungot afaict
19:15:12 <fungot> quintopia: call it " fn" is ( a f)) ( map fnord lst)
19:15:48 <tswett> So, gimme a few minutes, lemme see how the cut rule translates.
19:15:49 <boily> tswett: I get frivolous answers, viz. megaluns.
19:16:00 <HackEgo> megalun is a chain of a million SCSI devices. FreeFull weighs 482 of them.
19:16:11 <quintopia> boily: do you have my coordinates and body weigh? they are less fluctual now
19:16:27 <tswett> Oh dang, I never figured out whether or not Zimbabwe is to my left.
19:16:51 <boily> quintopia: I don't have your weigh. the coordinates were properly appröximated according to your last known address.
19:17:15 <tswett> Yep, I'm pretty sure I would describe Zimbabwe as being on my left.
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19:18:30 <boily> tswett: michigan? zimbabwe is most definitely to your left.
19:18:49 <tswett> Depends on which way I'm facing.
19:19:45 <boily> zimbabwe's leftness is orthogonal to your orientation.
19:19:49 <olsner> apparently my desk points zimbabwe
19:20:14 <tswett> No, I disagree. Zimbabwe's leftness is highly dependent on my orientation.
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19:21:51 <boily> `run echo "olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation." >wisdom/zimbabwe
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19:22:05 <quintopia> boily: it would only be orthogonal if michigan was antipodal to zimbabwe
19:22:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:25:56 <boily> quintopia: sadly, I concur that is not the case.
19:26:00 <fizzie> I think sgello is a kind of a (virtual?) string instrument?
19:27:59 * boily strokes Sgeo with a sbow
19:29:31 <quintopia> i'm sure that's exactly what sgeo was hoping for waking up today
19:29:40 <quintopia> "i need to get myself stroked today"
19:30:56 <Sgeo> I'm hoping for a computer that doesn't keep struggling with its graphics driver
19:31:18 <Sgeo> Also hoping not to be stroked by something that I don't even know what it is
19:31:57 <Sgeo> Looked it up. Apparently, boily is trying to run me over with an SUV?
19:33:03 <Sgeo> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=SBOW
19:33:11 <fizzie> boily: Don't try to play innocent, we know what you did.
19:33:57 <boily> bin torieux. there's always that chance that unknown words I type already mean something. I guess that just happened, eh?
19:34:17 <boily> fizzie: I claim not-guilty.
19:35:00 <boily> besides, how would one realistically stroke somebody else with an SUV?
19:41:11 <fizzie> By driving over them, presumably.
19:42:15 <boily> I deny everything. also, Sgeo is a wall.
19:42:54 <fizzie> Some people are walls, other people are wextras, it's just a fact of life.
19:46:04 <shachaf> boily: that's why you should type randomly-chosen 256-bit words
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19:50:05 <boily> shachaf: I 4ediGUdynGUJfQr0rGb582AvRrw6IBZX with you.
19:52:58 <tswett> So the cut rule ends up typed like this:
19:53:01 <tswett> (d -> (b -> t4, g -> t3) -> t) -> ((d', b) -> (g' -> t2) -> t4) -> (d, d') -> (g -> t3, g' -> t2) -> t
19:53:26 <tswett> Where all those ts are the universally quantified variables.
20:02:55 <tswett> Each one seems to correspond to a normal variable. t3 obviously corresponds to g, and t2 to g'. Then t4 seems to correspond to b, and t must correspond to d. And that leaves nothing to correspond to d'.
20:06:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:12:01 <boily> one cut to rule them all, and in the scissors snip them...
20:19:25 <int-e> maybe cut elimination should be called stitching.
20:20:30 <boily> chellopumpkin. int-hello.
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20:25:33 <HackEgo> jochem88: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:26:06 -!- tswett has joined.
20:26:17 <tswett> Whoever asked, the cut rule is from here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-linear/
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20:34:31 <Slereah> http://www.techwyse.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/robots-txt1.gif
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20:43:21 <FireFly> relcome jut might be a bit too colourful
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20:43:42 <myname> it is not colourful enough
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20:45:29 <int-e> /set hide_colors on
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21:12:01 <fizzie> Grumble murgle burgle, that computer with the noisy broken-sounding fan, into which I put a new nice and silent fan, has made the new fan also noisy and broken-sounding, in just a month or three. Must be some kind of a curse.
21:13:25 <HackEgo> FireFly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:13:37 <boily> fizzie: did you cast the chicken bones right?
21:13:55 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 8 Oct 28 14:16 bin/relcome -> rwelcome \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 12 Sep 25 13:06 bin/resume \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 35 Oct 19 20:40 bin/rwelcome
21:13:55 <FireFly> I think someone decided the other one broke too much stuff
21:14:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: stop: not found
21:14:43 <shachaf> `run echo 'echo resume' > bin/rèsumè; chmod +x bin/rèsumè
21:21:47 <fizzie> What! The non-word-based rainbow welcome is no more?
21:22:15 <fizzie> Bah. I guess there's no accounting for taste.
21:22:16 <boily> fizzie: indeed. it was squished away by heretics.
21:23:28 <boily> > fizzie == fizzie
21:23:29 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `fizzie'Not in scope: `fizzie'
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22:32:01 <lambdabot> boily said 3h 26m 3s ago: can I learn Zimbabwe's quantification?
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22:35:43 <oerjan> @tell boily the zimbabwean uncertainty principle means you cannot quantify their bmp precisely without causing runaway inflation.
22:40:51 <oerjan> <fizzie> There's a "joke" related to translating "voi äiti, joulukuusi palaa!" to Swedish [...] <-- google translate doesn't seem to know that meaning of "voi"
22:41:39 <oerjan> oh it knows it the other way around.
22:43:30 <oerjan> oh hm it's listed in the footnotes if you try "voi" alone.
22:48:47 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> beuh. who changed `ello? <-- i think you got hit by the tab expansion space issue.
22:50:02 <HackEgo> [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
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22:53:23 <shachaf> `unencode [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O]
22:53:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unencode: not found
22:53:28 <shachaf> `uniencode [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O]
22:53:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uniencode: not found
22:55:11 <oerjan> `unicode CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O
23:02:46 <shachaf> you're an unkown character
23:08:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> Hmm, those are the same? <-- some people overwrote the old relcome with rwelcome.
23:09:11 <oerjan> oh it's actually a link.
23:11:37 <oerjan> `run echo "echo résumé" >bin/resume
23:12:35 <oerjan> shachaf: it was in latin-1
23:12:53 <fizzie> You know the old adage: when you résumé, you make a rés out of both you and mé.
23:13:17 * oerjan checks fizzie's line encoding. you pass.
23:13:47 <fizzie> I not only pass, I pass-te. (From your line.)
23:13:59 <HackEgo> [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+00E8 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH GRAVE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+00E8 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH GRAVE]
23:14:13 <coppro> shachaf: you appear to possess a grave disorder
23:15:33 <oerjan> fizzie also has it, it seems to be turning acute
23:15:36 <coppro> why does unicode require you to know the code point
23:15:39 <shachaf> ♪ when they resume the résumé ♪
23:15:53 <coppro> oerjan: but is it turning complete?
23:15:59 <coppro> that's all we care about in this channel
23:16:26 <oerjan> hm we have defined turning tarpits, but have we defined turning completeness
23:16:47 <shachaf> p. sure 2π is turning complete
23:18:12 * shachaf is desperately trying to stop pronouncing the j in oerjan like the j in jack.
23:18:35 <fizzie> "oerjack" doesn't sound too shabby. Maybe a bit piratey.
23:19:28 <oerjan> lambdabot: you disappoint.
23:19:59 <oerjan> is there any actual difference between the commands?
23:20:10 <shachaf> They have two different lists of responses.
23:20:26 <shachaf> (Or did in the past. Maybe in the new age of mokusism that's different.)
23:21:19 <shachaf> people who play music loudly are the worst people
23:22:55 <oerjan> shachaf: no, i would say people who do carpentry are just as bad.
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23:23:30 <lambdabot> *** "vambrace" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:23:30 <lambdabot> n 1: cannon of plate armor protecting the forearm [syn:
23:24:05 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splice_the_mainbrace
23:25:49 <fizzie> Oh, it has nothing to do with mainframes. *disappoint*
23:26:11 <oerjan> well it was more interesting than i expected.
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23:31:09 <Taneb> I've been pressganged into presenting a talk on esolangs
23:31:45 <nooodl> how big of an audience are we talking
23:32:43 <oerjan> Taneb: well it probably beats joining the navy.
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23:37:30 <oerjan> (disclaimer: both of my previous messages make slightly more sense if you read the logs.)
23:40:19 <oerjan> lambdabot: your dictionary is useless
23:41:34 <fizzie> Ex-ply, the euphemism for used toilet paper.
23:42:43 <quintopia> is there an app for identifying a tune i whistle?
23:43:50 <oerjan> i vaguely recall hearing one mentioned, although in the context of it not really working.
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23:44:36 * oerjan assumes quintopia can google himself.
23:45:01 <fizzie> SoundHound claims to do it, IIRC.
23:46:00 <quintopia> oerjan: i was asking because my googling had failed to turn it up
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23:46:21 <fizzie> "Can SoundHound work if I whistle instead of singing or humming?
23:46:23 <fizzie> SoundHound has been designed to work even when you whistle! But please note that the microphones on most mobile devices, including iPhones and Android phones, are very sensitive to whistling. To make sure your whistled search gets the best results, try not to whistle too loud or too close to the microphone: hold the phone at arm's length while whistling, and whistle at only a moderate volume ...
23:46:30 <fizzie> ... so that the SoundHound volume bar does not fill up all the way."
23:46:36 <oerjan> quintopia: yes, i'm just logically deducing that i don't need to do it.
23:46:45 <fizzie> From what I recall, it does do humming better.
23:47:26 <Taneb> How do I even do a talk on esolangs
23:48:19 <fizzie> Musipedia also does whistling, I believe.
23:48:30 <oerjan> hm i am sure some finn here did some. not sure if it was fizzie or oklopol.
23:48:53 <oerjan> or maybe even another finn.
23:48:59 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
23:49:07 <fizzie> "You may sing or whistle (the latter might work better)"
23:49:11 <oerjan> i guess that covers all, then.
23:49:53 <oerjan> the big question is, does it work for people who cannot carry a tune.
23:49:59 <fizzie> atehwa did some kind of series at the University of Helsinki.
23:51:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Musipedia also has a keyboard if you can laboriously pick notes.
23:52:30 <oerjan> i mean tone deaf, i guess.
23:52:51 <oerjan> like, unable to tell whether they have selected the right notes.
23:53:07 <fizzie> Shazam (the other big name for "mainstream" music search) explicitly does not do singing, I think.
23:53:56 <fizzie> oerjan: It has a search-by-tapping-a-rhythm option for them.
23:55:02 <fizzie> (Also a mode where you just say if consecutive notes are higher or lower than their predecessors.)
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23:56:41 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, ...
23:56:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:58:25 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, ...
00:01:05 <oerjan> `echo "Połąnd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes." >wisdom/poland
00:01:07 <HackEgo> "Połąnd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes." >wisdom/poland
00:01:15 <oerjan> `run echo "Połąnd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes." >wisdom/poland
00:01:30 <tswett> Hey! You didn't use single quotation marks!
00:02:03 <HackEgo> Połąnd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes.
00:02:03 <tswett> `run echo 'Aren't single quotes awesome? They can't be beat!'
00:02:05 <HackEgo> Arent single quotes awesome? They cant be beat!
00:02:14 <oerjan> i think no harm was done.
00:03:06 <oerjan> hm i see a misspelling
00:03:19 <tswett> This reminds me of a command I ran once. Lemme see.
00:03:24 <oerjan> `run echo "Połąńd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes." >wisdom/poland
00:05:25 <tswett> I'm pretty sure it had either "'"'"'" or '"'"'"' in it.
00:05:55 <tswett> (The correct way to type either of those is to hold down the apostrophe key for a while, while being very fast and precise with the shift key.)
00:07:14 <tswett> `run echo '"'"'"'"' "'"'"'"'"
00:07:30 <fizzie> Neither seems to make too much sense, but 'foo'"'"'bar' is common-ish.
00:07:34 <tswett> One of those must have been it. Lemme see.
00:08:02 <fizzie> Maybe in some two-levels case.
00:09:14 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print repr(repr(repr(repr(repr('"')))))'
00:09:15 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
00:09:49 <oerjan> `run python -c "print repr(repr(repr(repr(repr('"\""')))))"
00:09:50 <HackEgo> '\'\\\'\\\\\\\'\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'\\\\\\\'\\\'\''
00:10:18 <oerjan> right you cannot mix both
00:10:34 <oerjan> `run python -c print "a" 'ha'
00:10:50 <tswett> Something along these lines: alias man="MANPAGER='col -b | view -c'"'"'"'set ft=man nomod nolist nonu'"'"'"' -' man"
00:10:57 <tswett> `run echo alias man="MANPAGER='col -b | view -c'"'"'"'set ft=man nomod nolist nonu'"'"'"' -' man"
00:10:57 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print "a" '"'ha'"
00:10:58 <HackEgo> alias man=MANPAGER='col -b | view -c'"'set ft=man nomod nolist nonu'"' -' man
00:11:55 <tswett> Yes, that must have been it.
00:13:01 <tswett> The argument to view -c has to be enclosed in quotes. But since I'm putting that into MANPAGER, those quotes have to be quoted. But since I'm making that an alias, *those* quotes have to be quoted.
00:14:22 <tswett> Thing is, that's a silly way of doing things.
00:14:51 <tswett> `run echo alias man="MANPAGER=\"col -b | view -c 'set ft=man nomod nolist nonu' -\" man"
00:14:53 <HackEgo> alias man=MANPAGER="col -b | view -c 'set ft=man nomod nolist nonu' -" man
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00:45:35 <tswett> I wonder if there are any implementations of a Unix-like operating system that just run as applications.
00:50:04 <Fiora> does cygwin count?
00:50:46 <tswett> Mm... I'd say not really.
00:53:22 <kmc> User Mode Linux?
00:53:38 <kmc> `echo hi tswett
01:20:52 <pikhq> `echo Hi tswett. Hwett.
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10:15:09 <fizzie> "Spectrocable allows for an incredible speed of over 10^54000 bits per second! -- Spectrocable has the bandwidth to allow for the download of the entire Library of Congress in less than half a second, --"
10:15:36 <fizzie> I guess, given the first part, the second part is technically true, but it's kind of an understatement to call that "less than half a second".
10:16:16 <fizzie> (This is from some utter nonsense at http://www.cyborg.co/spectrocable/ -- there's the usual impossible compression method there, too.)
10:18:10 <ion> That cable sounds perfect for hifists.
10:18:31 <ion> “Speed: 1.295 x 10^53802 bits per second / 1.62 x 10^53801 bytes per second”
10:18:39 <ion> They’ll of course be able to hear the difference between the two.
10:19:47 <fizzie> The wireless version "allows for a speed of over 10^55000 bits per second! That, in terabits per second, is about 10^54900 terabits per second!" Yeah, I guess that's "about" right, I mean, it's off only by 88 or so orders of magnitude.
10:20:29 <fizzie> I guess when you're talking about completely ludicrous numbers, there's no particular reason to be consistent.
10:23:12 <fizzie> What I think is funny is that, as far as I can tell, there really was a presentation of these "revolutionary technologies" at some actual "serious" tech thing -- http://techweek.com/losangeles/ -> "click here to view the 2013 schedule" -> Thursday 2pm "making the Internet blazing fast".
10:23:55 <fizzie> (Given the other talks, I guess that it's not *so* out of place.)
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10:28:35 <Fiora> http://www.cyborg.co/shadow/ xD
10:29:01 <fizzie> It reminds me a lot of another equally impossible Finnish compression algorithm I've mentioned here too.
10:29:29 <fizzie> That, too, was just about to come to the market and revolutionize everything.
10:30:14 <Fiora> it actually claims to compress any file losslessly?
10:30:26 <fizzie> Then nothing happened, and now the guy behind it is doing "Drupal, Concrete5, eZ publish, jQuery, underscore, PhoneGap" at some web shop, which I guess is kind of sad maybe?
10:30:47 <fizzie> I don't think it's any more or less unbelievable than transfer speeds of 10^55000 bits per second.
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10:45:28 <HackEgo> \ This is perl, v5.10.1 (*) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 61 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2009, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. \ \ Complete documenta
10:45:40 <ais523_> any bots around here with Perl 5.14 or later?
10:47:00 <ais523_> I tried codepad.org, but it's even older (5.8)
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10:53:59 <ais523_> bleh, I think this might actually need 5.16
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11:09:55 <fizzie> @tell ais523 ideone's Perl is v5.16.2 if that helps. (Though the point is probably moot by the time you get this.)
11:18:52 <b_jonas> perlbot (a lesser fork of buubot) also has perl 5.16.2 right now
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11:23:58 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, ...
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11:39:14 <Taneb> Wow, I forgot I made a profile on Haskellers.com
11:39:32 <Taneb> Hang on, fire alarm
11:40:53 <Taneb> I've... just received an email asking if I want to be a senior software developer
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12:01:28 <fizzie> I've just received an email addressed to "Dr. Prof. [my name]". (I guess they think it's better to err in that direction.)
12:02:01 <Taneb> So, Doctor Professor Fizzie
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12:13:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, all academic spam does that
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12:19:05 <HackEgo> qlkzy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:21:27 <shachaf> herr dr. prof. Taneb, inventor of d-modules
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14:06:24 <boily> good creative commons morning!
14:06:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 15h 30m 48s ago: the zimbabwean uncertainty principle means you cannot quantify their bmp precisely without causing runaway inflation.
14:06:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 15h 17m 44s ago: <boily> beuh. who changed `ello? <-- i think you got hit by the tab expansion space issue.
14:07:58 <boily> @tell oerjan bmp, as in Bone Morphogenetic Proteins or as in Besi Merah Putih?
14:08:49 <boily> @tell oerjan indeed. tabcompletion is evil. either it three-letter-clashes, or it inserts Spurrious Satanic Spaces.
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14:22:04 <fizzie> How great; I have a broken sshfs mount that I can't seem to fusermount.
14:22:14 <fizzie> fusermount -u, I mean.
14:23:03 <boily> sudo umount --force /mountpoint?
14:23:38 <fizzie> No "sudo" access here.
14:24:02 <fizzie> "fusermount: failed to chdir to [REDACTED; parent of mount point]: Permission denied"
14:24:03 <boily> hm. and I suppose $(which reboot) isn't setuid?
14:24:22 <boily> is there a sysadmin you can berate?
14:24:26 <fizzie> "which reboot" is so 90s.
14:24:46 <boily> systemctl reboot, then?
14:24:47 <fizzie> Of course I can reboot (it goes via DBus and UPower or whatnot), but I don't wanna.
14:25:07 <ais523> fizzie: this reminds me of how I somehow managed to get init to ptrace a process
14:25:15 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just keep collecting dead sshfs mounts.
14:25:22 <ais523> meaning that that process couldn't be killed via any means whatsoever, apart from a reboot
14:25:35 * boily misses the '90s, where machines were simple and emitted an nice blue glow...
14:25:52 <fizzie> Incidentally, we do have privileges to do "sudo apt-get", so the whole "no root access" is kind of based on a honor system.
14:26:11 <ais523> because the only ways to recover would be to debug init (explicitly allowed), or kill init (possible but kind-of fatal to the system)
14:26:34 <boily> fizzie: can you run arbitrary commands from within apt-get?
14:26:38 <ais523> fizzie: I'm not sure; apt-get isn't dpkg, it only installs from repositories
14:26:49 <ais523> so what access you could get from that would depend on the repository contents
14:26:54 <fizzie> ais523: You can "sudo apt-get changelog whatever", and then "!" out of less.
14:27:12 <fizzie> And if someone goes and plugs that hole with a custom pager, I'm pretty sure more can be found; it's not supposed to be secure.
14:27:19 <ais523> apt-get probably should drop permissions in that case
14:27:44 <fizzie> Probably, out of general principles, but it's not really in the use case.
14:28:33 <ais523> have you ever tried running aptitude without arguments, btw?
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14:28:40 <ais523> I didn't actually realise that was possible for ages
14:28:51 <ais523> it works even as non-root, albeit in read-only mode
14:28:54 <fizzie> Um. Yes, if by that you mean the usual aptitude UI.
14:29:55 <ais523> yep, that's what I meant
14:29:59 <ais523> I assumed it was command-line for years
14:30:19 <fizzie> We do have "sudo aptitude" access too; I didn't find an as obvious hole from it, because it doesn't have a spawn-a-shell menu command, and uses its built-in pager for changelogs.
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14:53:06 <fizzie> "sbatch: error: Batch job submission failed: Invalid account or account/partition combination specified" I just can't use that thing right.
15:04:21 <Taneb> Other than "[number]" and "[citation needed]", what special things like that can appear in wikipedia text
15:09:37 <Taneb> There seems to be loads of them help
15:09:52 <FireFly> I'm sure there's a category for them
15:10:32 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Inline_citation_and_verifiability_dispute_templates
15:10:33 <FireFly> Taneb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Inline_tags
15:11:17 <fizzie> I was going to suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Inline_templates but I suppose that's formatted better.
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15:11:58 <fizzie> I don't think I've come across [unbalanced opinion] in any article.
15:13:41 <FireFly> I don't think I've seen that either
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15:32:24 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 24m 26s ago: bmp, as in Bone Morphogenetic Proteins or as in Besi Merah Putih?
15:32:24 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 23m 35s ago: indeed. tabcompletion is evil. either it three-letter-clashes, or it inserts Spurrious Satanic Spaces.
15:32:57 <oerjan> @tell boily bmp as in worst misspelling of gdp ever.
15:34:04 <oerjan> @tell boily it probably has _something_ to do with the abbrevation being bnp in norwegian.
15:38:06 <oerjan> fizzie: that's some spectrobabble
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16:09:00 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Awkward is cute
16:31:22 <boily> oerjan: that makes much more sense.
16:31:40 <lambdabot> oerjan said 58m 42s ago: bmp as in worst misspelling of gdp ever.
16:31:40 <lambdabot> oerjan said 57m 35s ago: it probably has _something_ to do with the abbrevation being bnp in norwegian.
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16:56:13 <ion> The text box has the best scroll bar ever. http://apollo.spaceborn.dk/dsky-sim.html
16:58:10 <nooodl> you have to actually slam the brake button a few times for it to really stop
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17:00:47 <nooodl> hmm i can click the scroll buttons multiple times to scroll faster and then i have to click the stop one multiple times to slow back down
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17:02:23 <nooodl> function stopscroll() { if (window.moveupvar) clearTimeout(moveupvar); if (window.movedownvar) clearTimeout(movedownvar); }
17:03:11 <nooodl> if you assign multiple timeouts to the same variable do they stack......
17:03:21 <nooodl> that sounds javascript enough to be true
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17:16:32 <FireFly> ew. I don't think there's any gurantee that the return value of setTimeout is truthy
17:17:31 <FireFly> AFAIK it's just an arbitrary thing that could be passed to clearTimeout to stop it from firing, though numbers are common (at least, I think both SpiderMonkey and V8 use numbers)
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17:55:46 <ais523> I love the way that "truthy" has become an actual part of the computer science lexicon (if only in languages with ubiquitous coercion)
17:56:26 <ais523> there was an article talking about how the only sensible axis on which to classify type systems was static/dynamic, anything else is ambiguous and arbitrary
17:56:50 <ais523> I disagree, I think the amount of coercion in a language is another axis
18:02:52 <ais523> hmm… what about an esolang based entirely on casts
18:03:00 <ais523> which don't roundtrip, so you can do actual calculation
18:03:40 <Bike> something like, (int)"4+7" => 11?
18:03:46 <Bike> i guess that's too easy.
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18:03:58 <ais523> also, it needs control flow
18:04:07 <ais523> presumably via casting things to functions
18:04:15 <boily> that sounds like an interpreter...
18:04:34 <ais523> you could cast ints to lines of code, for instance
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18:40:00 <boily> the lineno type. you don't see that one too often...
18:41:10 <ais523> boily: gcc adds one to C; it's stored in void* variables and you get it via using unary && on a label
18:42:35 * boily runs away at the sight of an unary &&
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18:50:16 <fizzie> And then you call it by dereferencing a void * in a goto.
18:51:14 <fizzie> (Technically it's just a "goto *expression" syntax, and not an instance of the unary *, but still.)
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18:56:54 <ais523> fizzie: in gcc-bf, _exit in the standard library is implemented as "goto *(void *)0"
18:57:04 <ais523> which must be one of the weirdest lines of C ever
18:58:49 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't that abort() ?
18:59:01 <b_jonas> not quite, I know, because it's not the same signal
18:59:44 <ais523> b_jonas: _exit doesn't quite have the same semantics as abort, abort can be handled
19:00:52 <ais523> although it always exits after the handler returns
19:01:05 <ais523> the handler can longjmp out, though
19:03:08 <Bike> how does jumping to zero halt?
19:03:35 <ais523> Bike: it falls out of the main loop
19:04:03 <ais523> it's brainfuck, after all
19:04:16 <Bike> what is gcc-bf after all
19:04:42 <ais523> Bike: a gcc backend that targets a lowlevel language that compiles to brainfuck
19:10:45 <ais523> I got fed up trying to impl a 64-bit multiply
19:13:00 <boily> mroman_: can I get your approximate coördinates, so that I can get the distance between you and ais523?
19:13:06 <b_jonas> ais523: I can help in the multiply
19:13:16 <b_jonas> ais523: also, you asked about perl evaluator bots a few days ago
19:13:31 <mroman_> boily: Can't you just google them?
19:13:35 <b_jonas> ais523: perlbot (a less complete fork of buubot) has perl 5.16 via the eval command
19:13:35 <ais523> mroman_: b_jonas: I can send you my source code if you want to continue it, if you like
19:13:50 <ais523> but it probably only works on a specific version of gcc and newlib which may now be hard to obtain
19:13:58 <b_jonas> ais523: how do you represent the integers?
19:14:07 <ais523> b_jonas: one byte on each tape element
19:14:13 <ais523> assuming an 8-bit wrapping tape
19:14:25 <b_jonas> well, not so easily anyway
19:14:28 <boily> mroman_: is that you → https://www.facebook.com/roman.muntener ?
19:14:46 <mroman_> I don't have a Facebook Account
19:14:54 <b_jonas> I do only less efficitn formats like binary (addressable only in bits) or zeckendorf representation
19:15:07 <b_jonas> for bytewise you'll have to read Knuth or something
19:15:20 <mroman_> ^- my approximate coordinates
19:15:29 <b_jonas> that means you can only increment and decrement the bytes
19:16:06 <mroman_> N47 41 48, E8 38 23 that is
19:16:19 <boily> (hm. I wonder where 80.246.50.48 will take me...)
19:16:20 <ais523> oh right, this is the build system that runs gcc's build system halfway
19:16:30 <ais523> then runs sed on the generated Makefiles before completing the build
19:16:32 <boily> mroman_: any format translatable to this Physical Earth is fine.
19:17:05 <ion> Title and buttons: “Verify?” “No”, “Yes”. Description: “Do you not want to restore any of the projects? They cannot be restored later.” http://heh.fi/tmp/audacity-kayttoliittymakukkanen.png
19:17:06 <mroman_> I'm suprised americans don't have an imperial format for coordinates
19:17:46 <b_jonas> that zeckendorf thing is a bit riddiculous
19:18:01 <b_jonas> I still don't know how much addition can loop, and don't know how to implement subtraction properly
19:18:08 <ais523> anyway, this tarball is 50MB, but I'll send it to people who want it
19:18:10 <int-e> nobody likes runs of ones.
19:18:13 <b_jonas> I should try to analyze it some day
19:18:26 <ais523> also, working with gcc was really frustrating
19:18:44 <ais523> most of the codepaths that aren't used for x86 are either buggy and untested, or just outright unimplemented
19:18:58 <b_jonas> and maybe figure out direct multiplication too, looping on zeckendorf digits instead of binary bits, though that might be very difficult
19:23:47 <b_jonas> I probably won't be able to figure out this zeckendorf thing unless I learn about those tricky things people do to do binary faster these days
19:24:02 <b_jonas> like extra bits or strange representations to make it more vectorizable
19:24:17 <int-e> like fourier transformations?
19:25:07 <b_jonas> I mean that thing where they put a binary number in like base 2**30 but put each digit in 32-bit words to somehow avoid cascading carries
19:25:11 <b_jonas> or something tricky like that
19:25:28 <b_jonas> the fourier transforms help for really large numbers
19:25:47 <b_jonas> but in the zeckendorf representation the problem is that carries in an addition go both way: down and up
19:25:54 <b_jonas> and can cascade both ways or something
19:26:21 <b_jonas> so I can't even prove how to add in guaranteed linear time
19:26:48 <int-e> another problem is that it's not particularly easy to multiply two fibonacci numbers, as far as I can see
19:27:03 <b_jonas> int-e: you don't have to directly multiply
19:27:28 <b_jonas> int-e: you have to generate the sequence of multiplies of one factor by successive fibonacci numbers
19:27:32 <b_jonas> which you can do by repeated additions
19:27:52 <b_jonas> like, you know, when you implement multiply in a language that doesn't allow accessing bits, but only does add/subtract/compare
19:28:02 <b_jonas> you can implement multiply and even divide in binary on such a system
19:29:10 <b_jonas> my zeckendorf add code is in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=989716 in case you care
19:29:52 <b_jonas> but that only implements the addition in zeckendorf, and then binary built on that
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20:20:34 <mroman_> boily: Why did you want to calculate the distance?
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20:31:56 <boily> mroman_: your wanted to be gimmeed the gcc-bf compiler.
20:33:58 <mroman_> And what's that got to do with distance?
20:37:11 <boily> to know if you could walk up to ais523's residence and extirpate the aforesaid compiler from him.
20:37:26 <ais523> boily: I did say I was planning to give it voluntary
20:37:28 <boily> (that, and I opportunisted the occasion of asking you the The Question.)
20:37:52 <boily> boring. I could have wrote mroman_'s epic compiler fetch quest!
21:05:38 <mroman_> are you trying to make fun of my lack of english skills
21:06:46 <mroman_> you could have gone with wipe out, eradicate or extermine
21:07:11 <mroman_> extirpate doesn't even look like an english word
21:09:27 <mroman_> There's even superexcrescently
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21:10:40 <boily> far from it. I just like to butcher the English language myself.
21:10:52 <ais523> extirpate is real, although rarely used
21:10:57 <metasepia> extirpate definition: to destroy completely.
21:11:04 <boily> darn. and there I was hoping it wouldn't be one.
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21:11:23 <boily> two times in two. first with sbow, then extirpate.
21:11:39 <metasepia> waste definition: a sparsely settled or barren region.
21:11:40 <boily> mroman_: a very rare occurence. ~duck usually finds nothing.
21:11:54 <metasepia> impetus definition: a driving force.
21:12:06 <boily> I want to invent a word that doesn't exist, dammit!
21:12:11 <metasepia> INTERCAL is an esoteric programming language that was created as a parody by Don Woods and James M. Lyon, two Princeton University students, in 1972.
21:12:20 <boily> shachaf: no. ain't gonna bdbvxZfLOCmfKdNH1tg9EidKQqsn2zQHrC4XwQrP72RdkBxE3KrOdvJeZBNKl2yH.
21:12:31 <ais523> ("INTERCAL" is my standard search query for testing search engines, btw)
21:12:52 <metasepia> SNOBOL (StriNg Oriented and symBOlic Language) is a series of computer programming languages developed between 1962 and 1967 at AT&T Bell Laboratories by David J. Farber, Ralph E. Griswold and Ivan P. Polonsky, culminating in SNOBOL4.
21:13:06 <Bike> ~duck strongtalk
21:13:06 <metasepia> Strongtalk is a Smalltalk environment with optional static typing support.
21:13:12 <Bike> didn't expect that.
21:13:15 <Bike> ~duck passerine
21:13:15 <metasepia> A passerine is a bird of the order Passeriformes, which includes more than half of all bird species.
21:13:26 <Bike> ~duck gnatostomata
21:13:29 <int-e> (I believe that the INTERCAL manual is the only place where I've encountered SNOBOL)
21:14:18 <Bike> snobol's funny. the string concatenation operator is a space, the regular expressions are actually CFGs, and every line has a goto included.
21:14:32 <Bike> ~duck chordate
21:14:33 <int-e> ~duck onomatopoeia
21:14:33 <metasepia> onomatopoeia definition: the naming of a thing or action by a vocal imitation of the sound associated with it (as '''buzz, hiss''').
21:14:51 <Bike> boily: your bot's knowledge of phylogenic systematics is worryingly low.
21:15:15 <int-e> ~duck hylomorphism
21:15:16 <metasepia> Hylomorphism is a philosophical theory developed by Aristotle, which conceives substance as a compound of matter and form.
21:15:28 <Bike> ~duck entelechy
21:15:28 <metasepia> In the philosophy of Aristotle, the condition of a thing whose essence is fully realized; actuality.
21:16:27 <metasepia> eschatology definition: a branch of theology concerned with the final events in the history of the world or of humankind.
21:16:45 <boily> Bike: I concur. it saddens me.
21:16:59 <Bike> Where's it get the information fro?
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21:18:11 <boily> Bike: duck duck go.
21:18:45 <boily> AwfulProgrammer: hi! I have this stong urge to `relcome you. were you already `relcomed?
21:19:41 <Bike> "Safe search blocked some results for chordate." this search engine is worrying, boily.
21:20:12 <boily> let me check if I use safe search...
21:20:28 <Bike> no i just mean, is it turning up sexual chordates or something.
21:20:59 <boily> hot sexual chordate on protozoan action...
21:21:46 <boily> Bike: incidentally, yes, safe search is on. wouldn't want to make this chännel perverteder anymore than what it is.
21:22:25 <Bike> protozoa are hardly monophyletic
21:23:59 <metasepia> Protozoa are a diverse group of unicellular eukaryotic organisms, many of which are motile.
21:24:39 <boily> Bike: are you a biologist?
21:25:34 <Bike> a bikeologist.
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22:04:35 <mroman_> According to bing that's a firm that creates oil-burners
22:04:56 <mroman_> well... according to google too
22:05:10 <mroman_> but the real intercall on bing is place 4
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22:11:56 <int-e> in my google bubble, the wikipedia intercal page comes first
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22:15:43 <int-e> Ah, the language preference plays a role here; google.de puts said company first
22:19:58 <b_jonas> yes, the hl= parameter giving ui language changes a LOT about the order of google hits
22:20:18 <b_jonas> that's why I use both hl=hu and hl=en depending on what language of pages I want to find
22:25:34 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
22:28:36 <boily> `quote hogy hogy hogy
22:28:38 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
22:29:17 <FreeFull> `run echo "The final frontier." > wisdom/\
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23:17:59 <shachaf> https://plus.google.com/+MikeStay/posts/Vgz4kMFiyCU
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23:32:33 <oerjan> shachaf: saw that coming from a mile away.
23:32:57 <quintopia> @ask Oj742 are you going to add a long description of smartlock to strategy page?
23:34:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?lambdabot: not found
23:34:40 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
23:35:27 <shachaf> why do you hate Roald Dahl
23:35:57 <oerjan> `learn \ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash.
23:37:27 <oerjan> `learn lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
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23:49:28 <olsner> shachaf: iirc roald dahl is evil or something
23:51:29 <Taneb> He's welsh, there is that
23:51:46 <Taneb> Or maybe Norwegian, I forget
23:52:21 <Taneb> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
23:52:57 <oerjan> istr from his wikipedia page that he was pretty evil.
23:53:29 <HackEgo> olist 933: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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00:05:00 <oerjan> well that seemed to go rather well
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01:11:46 <lambdabot> Poll results for olist (Open): update=933
01:12:15 <lambdabot> Poll should be closed before you can remove it.
01:12:20 <lambdabot> vote <poll> <choice> Vote for <choice> in <poll>
01:12:24 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
01:12:27 <Bike> you can't close it yet!
01:12:32 <Bike> what if someone votes for... another option!
01:12:58 <oerjan> such a profoundly secure system.
01:13:13 <Bike> you're destroying democracy
01:13:35 <shachaf> Bike: that's pollitics for you
01:13:58 <oerjan> Bike: it's ok the ballot was stuffed anyway
01:14:18 <Bike> http://dynasty-scans.com/system/releases/000/008/952/cw-a-4.png a depiction of shachaf
01:15:05 <Bike> the demon thing, obviously, you fascist.
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01:16:32 <shachaf> i don't know what's going on help
01:18:52 <Bike> «Primary duties will be to place and monitor trial carcasses as part of searcher efficiency and carcass removal trials [...] on the Island of Maui.» in CowHub news
01:24:19 <oerjan> an opening for a cow orker, i take.
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04:41:29 <shachaf> @remember ddarius The secret to usable software is not discoverability, not documentation, not consistency; it's preview and undo.
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05:12:34 <ion> Star Wars Downunder http://youtu.be/mhTn8cjm9ZM (the subtitles have a translation to English :-D)
05:20:22 <lambdabot> Bike said 3d 11h 3m 31s ago: i don't think opencl c even has provisions for exceptions
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05:22:36 <kmc> Vorpal: regarding your claim that 'nobody in "real life"' cares about gendered language, https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015 has about 50 people posting in the space of a few hours to say that they do in fact care
05:22:55 <kmc> mostly men, some women, many people with "real names" and geographic locations in their github profiles
05:24:26 <zzo38> I have played Dungeons&Dragons game on Wednesday; I have almost disabled the prisoner; he is now in a coma.
05:24:54 <kmc> what will you do now?
05:26:23 <zzo38> Ensure he is disabled some more, would be the next thing to do. And if the captain gets angry, work around that, too (possibly with illusions).
05:26:40 <kmc> use your illusion
05:27:58 <zzo38> O no, I don't want to waste it.
05:29:32 <shachaf> silly kmc, internet people aren't real
05:29:35 <shachaf> and nor are people who disagree with me
05:29:47 <shachaf> it's possible that i'm not helping right now
05:31:25 <Bike> if i'm not real how do you explain my invention of the steam-powered bike gear
05:31:47 <kmc> shachaf: i visited https://twitter.com/catcafecalico while I was in Japan
05:32:56 <shachaf> imo there should be a pointless cat
05:34:36 <ion> What’s a catca and what’s fecal ico?
05:36:02 <shachaf> kmc: good pull request comments
05:36:06 <shachaf> i like how there's always that person
05:36:19 <ion> shachaf: Or fifty of “that person”s.
05:36:21 <kmc> ion: see that can't happen in Hangul!! best writing system ever
05:37:00 <Bike> great, now i want to see korean puns.
05:37:55 <ion> I don’t understand why the world hasn’t just switched to Hangul.
05:37:57 <shachaf> ion: in this case it looked like there were only a few
05:38:10 <kmc> shachaf: "stop wasting your time on this issue!" *ensures that even a trivial fix becomes a multi-hour fight*
05:38:47 <kmc> ion: it's not so great if your language doesn't conform to Korean phonetics
05:38:57 <kmc> if you like distinguishing "r" from "l" or "g" from "k", for example
05:38:58 <ion> The Internet fight or fight response
05:39:11 <shachaf> Perhaps we should invent a writing system to end all writing systems.
05:39:30 <ion> @google xkcd standards
05:41:37 <zzo38> Hangul is not a bad system, although you can definitely make up a lot of new kinds, for conlangs and whatever else you like to do; I don't really like the IPA symbols which are racist and inelegant; I would prefer to compose symbols based on if it is dental, approximant, etc, even for impossible combinations, sounds out of human range, simultaneous speech, implied but unspoken sounds, and so on.
05:41:53 <zzo38> And Blissymbols is OK too, for meaning rather than sound.
05:42:14 <zzo38> None of these are perfect though, and probably they cannot really intended to be anyways.
05:42:31 <shachaf> zzo38: you should invent a writing system
05:42:38 <shachaf> and serve documents written in it via gopher
05:44:18 * kmc = 기간 미갈읏텔 ?
05:45:00 <Bike> are those just normal hangul? my term font is terrible
05:45:11 <kmc> they're copypasted from google translate
05:45:49 <Bike> gi gan mi gal eus tel
05:46:01 <Bike> creative 'mcallister' i must say
05:46:03 <shachaf> kmc: i like how "only women actually care about this" and "only men actually care about this" are both arguments against making the change
05:46:28 <zzo38> Sure I could serve them by gopher or whatever protocol, although probably if I was making such a thing I should write the METAFONT programs to draw the symbols in such a writing system.
05:48:17 <kmc> 사캅 벤-기기? no idea how to do "chaf" tbqh
05:48:39 <kmc> and s/sh didn't seem to be distinguished, based on reading hangul on street signs in japan >_>
05:49:09 <kmc> Bike: yeah well like I said, l/r and g/k are the same
05:49:11 <shachaf> That's OK, no one really does.
05:49:18 <Bike> i know, i'm just amused
05:50:03 <shachaf> http://josefwigren.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/full-hangul.jpg has separate g and k
05:50:24 <kmc> colorful :)
05:50:30 <kmc> oh i forgot about that letter
05:50:38 <Bike> what are the greyed out ones.
05:50:58 <kmc> the black keys
05:52:05 <Bike> you could learn korean.
05:52:19 <shachaf> that sounds like a lot more trouble than learning an alphabet
05:52:24 <kmc> i want to learn korean
05:52:26 <kmc> but don't know how
05:52:31 <kmc> gotta get some books or something
05:52:34 <kmc> books are a lot of effort
05:52:47 <shachaf> move to samsung digital city
05:53:31 <shachaf> because that poor consonant is disregarded in many languages
05:54:52 <shachaf> since there is also a vaguely kind of similar system of consonants and vowels
05:56:31 <kmc> you mean the one that gets transliterated as "ng"?
05:56:46 <shachaf> Wait, maybe I'm mixing things up.
05:57:26 <kmc> ᄋ can also appear as an initial but there it means nothing at all
05:57:57 <shachaf> Right, that's the usage I mean. It can appear as non-initial?
05:58:24 <shachaf> "nothing at all", not even a glottal stop?
05:58:26 <kmc> yes, as a final consonant it's "ng"
05:58:43 <shachaf> That's odd. I thought this alphabet was supposed to make sense. :-(
05:59:13 <kmc> as in 삼성 "samseong"
05:59:51 <kmc> shachaf: they used to be separate but got conflated down the line
05:59:51 <ion> Star Trek Tᄋ
06:00:04 <kmc> hangul had more letters back when it was supposed to represent all the sounds in Classical Chinese
06:00:25 <Bike> how much of the phonology of classical chinese do we actually know
06:00:53 <shachaf> So do you pronounce it as a glottal stop or do you slur syllables together?
06:00:59 <kmc> i don't know man
06:01:07 <kmc> i ought to learn korean though
06:01:35 <shachaf> a language with no gendered third-person pronouns
06:02:00 <ion> why not Zoidberg
06:02:31 <shachaf> should i also learn korean
06:02:42 <ion> We should all switch to Lojban
06:02:46 <Bike> you should learn double korean.
06:08:43 <ion> Help, i seem unable to get in touch with Simon Marlow. I have sent a message on Google+ and two messages on IRC on different days.
06:09:33 <shachaf> He was online in IRC aa few days ago.
06:10:03 <shachaf> By a few days ago I mean, uh, earlier today.
06:10:14 <shachaf> Oh, you sent IRC messages.
06:11:03 <ion> I’ll try email next. But one would think Google+ and IRC would, like, work.
06:12:06 <shachaf> I didn't know there was such a thing as a Google+ message.
06:12:43 <shachaf> Maybe he prefers Facebook messages.
06:13:37 <ion> If you send messages to non-Facebook friends on Facebook, they won’t get notified. They’ll see the message if they happen to check out the obscure “probably spam” place nobody checks.
06:14:16 <ion> Perhaps Google+ does something similar, but that’s why i tried to contact him on IRC after no response.
06:14:49 <shachaf> Maybe you can go work at Facebook and then send him an internal message.
06:15:18 <ion> Perhaps i could become a billionaire, buy Facebook and send him a memo from the boss.
06:16:20 <shachaf> p. sure there are better things to buy at that price
06:20:49 <ion> Some people abbreviate the Finnish word “eli” (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eli#Finnish) as “l.” That’s like abbreviating “pretty” as “r.”
06:21:23 <ion> The name of the letter l isn’t “el” either, it’s “äl”, so that doesn’t explain it either.
06:21:43 <ion> Also, why abbreviate a three-letter word? :-P
06:22:17 <kmc> not to be confused with "ål"
06:22:45 <kmc> en långsträckt fisk med säreget fortplantningsbeteende
06:22:49 <ion> FWIW, there’s no å in Finnish
06:23:37 <shachaf> and there's no l in christmas
06:23:54 <ion> Depends on how you pronounce r
06:23:59 <kmc> säreget fortplantningsbeteende och uppskattat kött
06:24:27 <ion> saturnalia – both r and l!
06:26:23 <shachaf> ion: do they in finland that russian has n different 's's
06:26:47 <ion> I think you a verb.
06:27:31 <kmc> for some value of finland
06:31:18 <shachaf> `run echo $'#!/usr/bin/env python\n# coding: rot-13\ncevag h"Uryyb, Jbeyq!"\n' > /tmp/whoaaa.py; chmod +x /tmp/whoaaa.py; /tmp/whoaaa.py
06:31:29 <kmc> i need to learn enough korean to implement `안녕하세요 anyway
06:32:47 <ion> shachaf: whoa, dude
06:32:59 <ion> Why doesn’t Haskell have that‽
06:33:03 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: Maybe you can implement `안녕하세요 for us?
06:34:06 <kmc> ion: ghc -pgmF hth
06:34:27 <ion> kmc: That’s GHC. :-(
06:34:38 <kmc> "everyone knows haskell is really just ghc"
06:34:43 <ion> Fair enough.
06:37:17 <zzo38> What I think it should include is some way to convert identifiers containing non-ASCII characters into ASCII
06:39:21 <kmc> > let 안녕 = "hello" in 안녕
06:40:48 <zzo38> For example, there could be some extension to support a declaration like "\49493\12920\122223" = magic; and then it will treat "magic" as a synonym for the non-ASCII identifier.
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07:00:06 <zzo38> However, in this Dungeons&Dragons game, I did notice a hole in the floor in the bedroom hallway, directly above the prison cell. It is a small hole, but large enough for a coin or leech or small key to fit. Perhaps this key was intended that someone might drop it into this hole? (I am not going to do that, though.)
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07:42:31 <zzo38> Is any cellular automaton a convolution filter followed by a scalar function on each cell? From what I can tell, they are able to be represented in this way; Conway's Game of Life can easily be done like this, for example.
08:05:03 <kmc> mostly depends what you mean by "cellular automaton", I expect
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08:14:07 <zzo38> What do *you* mean by "cellular automatic"?
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08:15:32 <kmc> well, what if I make a CA where each cell computes a complicated nonlinear function of its neighbors
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08:15:42 <kmc> that would not fit in your scheme right?
08:16:03 <zzo38> I suppose then it wouldn't, if the number of states isn't finite
08:16:12 <zzo38> So you are correct about that
08:16:18 <kmc> and if it is finite then it still works?
08:17:15 <zzo38> I expect it to (although maybe if something else strange is done, it might not?)
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08:19:10 <zzo38> If the number of states is infinite though, then I would think a convolution followed by a scalar (even if nonlinear) function would still work in *some* cases, but not all
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08:38:33 -!- kmc has set topic: SUNTORY BOSS is the boss of them all since 1992 | Although maybe if something else strange is done, it might not? | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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08:59:11 <zzo38> While playing backgammon earlier this week, I have noticed that although doubles will give you more moves, it also makes you more likely to get stuck, so there is that counterbalance involved.
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09:07:35 <zzo38> I have, even before, noticed how sequent calculus can be considered as a game between two players, the first player who selects a rule and applies all variables, and the second player must select a sequent above the line to continue with. Whoever has no legal moves loses. I think there are also other ways to consider a logic as a game, but I do not know what they are or how they work. Do you know?
09:11:29 <kmc> it's common (and useful imo) to view predicate logic as a game between two players, ∃ and ∀
09:11:51 <zzo38> A proof of some sequent then corresponds to a strategy for the first player to be guaranteed to win from such a position.
09:12:14 <zzo38> kmc: I have read about that, but didn't study it much to know much about how such thing is working.
09:15:28 <kmc> put a formal in prenex normal form, then ∃ and ∀ take turns selecting values for their respective variables; ∃ wins (and the formula is true) if they end up at a true propositional statement, ∀ wins (and it's false) if they end up at a false one
09:15:34 <kmc> i think that's how it goes
09:16:16 <kmc> it might not be that useful to view totally abstract logic this way, but thinking about two players has helped me keep straight complicated quantifiers in e.g. definitions of continuity, or VC-dimension, or what have you
09:17:03 <zzo38> O, I can understand now, how you mean!
09:19:51 <kmc> recall that TQBF / QSAT is PSPACE-complete, so any problem in PSPACE can be phrased as such a game
09:20:17 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not it useful to view abstract logic in such a way either, however, I have noticed that it can be made up other way around; first make up the game and then the sequent calculus which implements such a game. For example a subtraction game where the first player wins with numbers that aren't divisible by four, encode such a thing in sequent calculus and that is one way to define the logical system where theorems are numbers wh
09:20:34 <kmc> also sometimes you have another player "Nature" who chooses randomly, and then you can talk about the probability of ∀ or ∃ winning
09:21:09 <zzo38> kmc: O, OK, you can have that too. I didn't think of quite that, but I did think of similar things actually.
09:21:12 <kmc> and then there are things like interactive proof systems or Arthur-Merlin proofs or zero-knowledge proofs, which are also phrased as games between multiple players, usually with access to randomness and some (possibly differing) bounds on their computational power
09:23:20 <kmc> zero knowledge proofs are so cool
09:25:47 <zzo38> I do not know what "Arthur-Merlin proofs" means, however.
09:26:03 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur%E2%80%93Merlin_protocol
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09:27:31 <zzo38> Notice that in the system I have defined, draws may be possible (although I find it is usually useful to consider draws as a win for the second player, or at least draws by repetition, anyways)
09:31:11 <zzo38> OK, now I looked at Arthur-Merlin
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10:35:36 <kmc> why is there no cat cafe in san francisco
10:42:24 <kmc> when I said "put a formal" above i meant "put a formula"
10:43:09 <Taneb> kmc, what is a cat cafe
10:44:22 <kmc> only the best sort of retail establishment there is!!!!
10:44:45 <kmc> it's a cafe and a bunch of cats live at the cafe and you can pet / play with / snuggle with the cats at the cafe
10:49:15 <kmc> thats different
10:49:16 <shachaf> then your house can be a cat cafe and i can visit and pet / play with / snuggle
10:51:45 <Fiora> I want to go to a cat cafe
10:52:16 <shachaf> do cat cafes dispose of cats in evil ways when they get old
10:52:16 <Halite> If an oscilloscope can be set to display vectors, why do we still use pixels?
10:52:33 <fizzie> I don't think there's a cat cafe in the whole of Finland.
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10:53:47 <kmc> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
10:54:03 <Taneb> There is one in England and they are making another
10:54:04 <fizzie> With a name that long, you'd think it'd be more impressive.
10:54:12 <Taneb> But they make them in very far away places
10:56:03 <kmc> they have some in Paris, Berlin, and München as well
10:56:18 <kmc> and Budapest
10:56:21 <kmc> all the cool places
10:56:23 <Taneb> There are none in York or Hexham
10:56:25 <kmc> sorry hexham
10:56:57 <kmc> i suggest moving to Berlin or Seoul
10:57:08 <kmc> although, Finland is a cool place and doesn't have one
10:59:06 <kmc> Halite: lots of reasons, one is that LCDs are a lot nicer than CRTs (and OLED displays nicer yet) and they're inherently pixel-oriented
11:01:13 <kmc> vector graphics doesn't really do full color images, shading, etc.
11:01:48 <kmc> you can have graphics stacks that mix vector and raster pretty far down the pipeline, but you want something uniform when you actually send graphics to a display device, and pixels make sense there
11:02:19 <kmc> some old video games did use vector graphics and directly control the deflection of a CRT beam in the manner of an oscilloscope
11:02:31 <kmc> http://www.jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm has an incredible amount of detail on how that works
11:03:16 <kmc> an original _Asteroids_ game looks absolutely stunning
11:04:12 <kmc> brilliant bright white CRT with beautiful trails and perfectly smooth lines
11:04:16 <kmc> monochrome so there's no shadow mask even
11:04:18 <Halite> Can and do vector LEDs exist?
11:05:06 <int-e> maybe ... thinking of laser printers
11:05:30 <kmc> the objects are drawn by a 10-bit DAC so there's a notional 1024x1024 resolution, which is already very high for 1979, but also I believe that straight lines get smoothly interpolated between those points
11:05:39 <kmc> in theory you could also do smooth circles etc. with analog oscillator circuits
11:06:26 <kmc> Halite: I don't think "vector LEDs" refers to any kind of well-defined thing... you could invent a vector display technology that uses LEDs in some capacity and call it "vector LED", sure, but it would be pretty different from either a CRT or a traditional LED or LCD display
11:06:53 <int-e> (But that involves mechanical mirrors. Now I'm sure you can do some fance micromechanics stuff and make it work, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that. :) )
11:07:09 <kmc> is what possible
11:08:22 * int-e is pondering how to actually control a beam of laser light in CRT like fashion.
11:08:45 <kmc> stupid photons with their zero electrical charge
11:09:09 <int-e> (laser printers cheat; they just deflect the beam along a single scan line and rely on the printing drum's rotation for vertical displacement)
11:09:22 <kmc> there is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_effect
11:09:29 <kmc> specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pockels_effect and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_effect
11:10:12 <kmc> I think Media Lab used one of these in their "trillion frame per second" camera
11:10:38 <int-e> And even laser printers to have be getting replaced by LED printers, because they take less space and less delicate mechanics; building a row of many LEDs is chepaer.
11:10:49 <kmc> interesting
11:11:41 <kmc> http://web.media.mit.edu/~raskar/trillionfps/
11:13:13 <int-e> urgh, what did I do to that sentence? s/to have be/are/
11:13:15 <kmc> or maybe not, maybe it was just a material which produces electrons when hit by light, and they deflected those electrostatically
11:14:00 <kmc> either way the idea is to vary the electric field rapidly so that photons coming from a single point end up spread across a linear detector according to the time they arrived, with picosecond resolution
11:15:15 <kmc> and you do that again and again for many points in a scene, illuminated by laser pulses the same way each time
11:15:23 <kmc> and there's your "trillion frame per second" movie
11:16:00 <int-e> http://1.2.3.11/bmi/www.mit.edu/~velten/press/content/pictures/bottle_photo.jpg looks silly. (note the lack of absence of trade marks)
11:17:56 <fizzie> What's that 1.2.3.11/bmi stuff?
11:18:26 <fizzie> (Link didn't work for me with that; worked without.)
11:18:44 <int-e> fizzie: a "transparent" proxy that I keep forgetting about.
11:19:03 <int-e> so the correct link is http://www.mit.edu/~velten/press/content/pictures/bottle_photo.jpg
11:19:34 <kmc> does your organization legit own 1.2.3?
11:20:08 <kmc> i spent a few summers at the school which owns 129.186.*.* ; that was super confusing
11:20:12 <kmc> wonder if they got it at a discount
11:20:19 <fizzie> 1.2.3.0/24 was reserved for bogonity, IIRC.
11:20:47 <fizzie> inetnum: 1.2.3.0 - 1.2.3.255; netname: Debogon-prefix.
11:21:02 <kmc> what does that mean exactly
11:21:15 <fizzie> (It's part of APNIC's range, I remember reading about it when they were introducing 1/8. Both the /24's containing 1.1.1.1 and 1.2.3.4 were reserved.)
11:21:34 <int-e> kmc: certainly not. (it's a mobile ISP, I'm sure they don't really care about RFCs as long as most customers are happy)
11:21:51 <kmc> so are they available for private use in the same manner as 10/8 and 192.168/16?
11:21:54 <int-e> s/are happy/don't complain/
11:21:56 <kmc> or are you "not supposed to use them" in some way
11:22:02 <fizzie> You're not supposed to use them, no.
11:22:09 <int-e> and I have no clue why they aren't using 10.*
11:22:35 <fizzie> Perhaps they were already using 10.* for some other internal purpose.
11:22:44 <int-e> (I mean, they do use it; my assigned IP is 10.165.126.240)
11:22:55 <kmc> also I'm amused that MIT can't get any official IPv6 space because IANA is still pissed off that they own 1/256 of the entire IPv4 space
11:24:48 <int-e> I didn't know that, that is funny. How are they expecting MIT to move off the IPv4 space if they don't even get IPv6 space to migrate to?
11:25:12 <kmc> well I don't know the details, but probably they have to commit to give it back eventually, or something, and MIT is unwilling to do it?
11:25:15 <kmc> i don't know really
11:25:23 <kmc> heard this second- or third-hand
11:25:58 <Halite> On a different topic, can a vector image composed of lines be separated into a raster image and the slope of the line at each point on each rasterisation?
11:26:46 <kmc> Halite: I'm not sure what you mean but it sounds like you want to chop up a single vector image into a grid of many vector images (one per "pixel") and yes, you can do that
11:33:54 <Halite> Anyway, is it also possible to create a perfect zoom system for raster images?
11:38:43 <kmc> depends what you mean by "perfect zoom system" but probably no
11:39:33 <kmc> definitely you can't take a raster photograph and zoom in arbitrarily far
11:39:42 <kmc> there's a finite amount of information in the original photograph
11:40:38 <kmc> if your raster image is actually a line drawing, you can try to convert back to a vector image and zoom on that
11:40:49 <int-e> this sounds relevant: http://null-ptr.blogspot.co.at/2008/06/vector-representation-of-fonts-on-gpu.html (I believe I've even seen a paper with a similar idea somewhere, but I don't remember any details.)
11:41:35 <int-e> (Not related to "perfect zooming" but to the previous idea of assigning vector images to pixels)
11:42:37 <int-e> and of course there's all the marching cubes stuff that is also related somehow.
11:46:21 <int-e> oh, "meandering triangles" is a cute term. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marching_squares#Meandering_triangles )
11:53:41 <Halite> My battery power is so freaking low
11:57:32 <Halite> How low can my battery get before my iPad refuses to budge?
11:58:05 <kmc> i could not care less
12:00:59 <Halite> Or 10-based bound gone
12:01:19 <kmc> please redirect these updates to #esoteric-halites-ipad
12:01:41 <kmc> or /dev/null
12:01:43 <Halite> Oh haws I'm monologue nag yet again
12:01:57 <kmc> not sure what all those words are, but yes
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12:36:59 <int-e> . o O ( how do you produce ⪓ in (La)TeX? )
12:39:50 <kmc> int-e: nice!
12:42:06 <Halite> I have something to show you on the PC
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12:46:06 <Halite[PC]> Anyway I wanted to show you https://www.dropbox.com/s/cpujagd162oos0x/JSB%20File%20format.html -- I made it earlier this year. I'd like a bit of advice on how to make the format vector.
12:46:41 <Halite[PC]> Warning: don't try to go on it in Internet Explorer
12:53:10 * int-e feels reminded of http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1994-10-17/
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12:56:45 <int-e> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/single-page.html ... that's really stretching the meaning of the word "tiny".
12:59:59 <Halite[PC]> What if we could mix pixel and vector displays so we can fill while being of high quality? The vector display could override to prevent filling problems.
13:00:48 <int-e> anyway, that's why I had this association; defining a vector graphics format is a bottomless pit. it's easy enough to hack something together that supports straight lines and filling with solid colors, but people tend to want gradients, transparency, curves, various line styles, arrows on lines, clipping, and so forth.
13:00:58 <fizzie> int-e: Closest I know is \lesseqqgtr from amssymb; that's the ⪋ -- but of course it's not quite the same. (Supplemental Mathematical Operator is very good when it comes to <s, >s and slanted -s.
13:01:21 <int-e> fizzie: Oh sorry, that was a rhetorical question. I don't actually need the symbol. :)
13:10:30 <nooodl> $3 {\leq \atop \geq} 4$ looks ok to me
13:10:57 <nooodl> anyway what a profoundly useless symbol?!
13:18:42 <int-e> nooodl: hmm, your \geq is \geqslant?
13:19:18 <nooodl> it isn't, i just didn't consider the slant important
13:21:18 <fizzie> Unicode makes a difference there.
13:21:25 <fizzie> (And therefore so should you.)
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13:40:25 <fizzie> I like the regular 2x2 grid blocks.
13:41:29 <fizzie> (Better resolution with the dots though, that's for sure.)
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13:51:57 <Halite[tablet]> My standard JSON bitmap file would be .jsb, but now I've made .vjsb
13:53:15 <Halite[tablet]> So far an image would contain arrays of the for max,ya,xb,yb,
13:55:36 <Halite[tablet]> E.g. Bitmap [row, row, row, ...] where row is a colour array, vector [[colour, xa, ya, xb, yb], ...]
13:58:37 <Halite[PC]> https://www.dropbox.com/s/rh5r0wgbikq61va/JSB%20Vector%20format.html it's worth a try
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14:03:02 <Halite[PC]> FreeFull: Cool. Now make that in JSB vector form using the link I provided.
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14:15:58 <FreeFull> Halite[PC]: I can't find anything about that format
14:16:51 <int-e> [0,0,10,10,0,10,10,0] is a cross?
14:18:16 <nortti> [[colour,0,0,10,10], [colour,0,10,10,0]] would be the right one, I think
14:19:17 <nortti> what format is the colour in?
14:19:41 <Halite[PC]> [[colour, "0", "0", "10", "10"], [colour,"0", "10", "10", "0"]]
14:25:32 <int-e> [["red",0,0,30,30],["red",0,30,30,0],["blue",30,15,34,4],["blue",34,4,45,0],["blue",45,0,56,4],["blue",56,4,60,15],["blue",60,15,56,26],["blue",56,26,45,30],["blue",45,30,34,26],["blue",34,26,30,15]]
14:26:47 <nortti> why are you using '[]' instead of '()' ?
14:26:52 <int-e> ["l"/*line*/,style,x0,y0,x1,y1,x2,y2,...]
14:27:13 <int-e> "Square brackets hold arrays"
14:27:53 <int-e> JSON has no parentheses as far as I know.
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14:29:05 <int-e> that said I'm happy to read ["l","red",0,30,30,0] as (l 'red 0 30 30 0) :)
14:29:34 <Halite[PC]> I see you're using "l" as future syntax to denote that the object is indeed a line and not a curve?
14:30:16 <int-e> well, not a (filled) polygon, was my idea
14:31:09 <int-e> but the main point was that there should be *some* sort of marker to make the thing extensible.
14:32:14 <Halite[PC]> I will indeed add one as the format expands
14:32:42 <Halite[PC]> Who can make an image of a stickman? :D
14:34:37 <int-e> ask this guy? http://www.etch-a-sketchartist.com/etchasketches/
14:38:03 <int-e> http://www.gvartwork.com/gvetchedintime/gallery.php -- this guy is better, and still active.
14:42:59 <nortti> shitty stick figure: [["#ffffff", 1,0, 6,0], ["#ffffff", 1,0, 1,5], ["#ffffff", 6,0, 6,5], ["#ffffff", 1,0, 6,5], ["#ffffff", 3,5, 3,10], ["#ffffff", 3,6, 0,9], ["#ffffff", 3,6, 6,9], ["#ffffff", 3,10, 0,13], ["#ffffff", 3,10, 6,13]]
14:47:32 <Halite[PC]> and its head is an N even if you do make it #000000
14:47:50 <Halite[PC]> at this rate I'll have to set bg notation
14:49:06 <Halite[PC]> eg. ["#000FFF", ["#ffffff", 1,5, 5,6]]
14:49:07 <nortti> ["#000000", ["#ffffff", 1,0, 6,0], ["#ffffff", 1,0, 1,5], ["#ffffff", 6,0, 6,5], ["#ffffff", 1,0, 6,5], ["#ffffff", 3,5, 3,10], ["#ffffff", 3,6, 0,9], ["#ffffff", 3,6, 6,9], ["#ffffff", 3,10, 0,13], ["#ffffff", 3,10, 6,13]]
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14:50:02 <int-e> scaled up: [["#000", 110,100, 160,100], ["#000", 110,100, 110,150], ["#000", 160,100, 160,150], ["#000", 110,150, 160,150], ["#000", 130,150, 130,200], ["#000", 130,160, 100,190], ["#000", 130,160, 160,190], ["#000", 130,200, 100,230], ["#000", 130,200, 160,230]]
14:50:39 <Halite[PC]> ["#fff", ["#000", 110,100, 160,100], ["#000", 110,100, 110,150], ["#000", 160,100, 160,150], ["#000", 110,150, 160,150], ["#000", 130,150, 130,200], ["#000", 130,160, 100,190], ["#000", 130,160, 160,190], ["#000", 130,200, 100,230], ["#000", 130,200, 160,230]]
14:52:01 <int-e> Halite[PC]: you changed the format :P
14:55:04 <nooodl> http://lpaste.net/5940427395184984064 rainbow spiral!
14:55:15 * int-e is staring at carry patterns for Zeckenhaus addition ... they look funny.
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14:55:25 <nooodl> should add a background i guess
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14:59:26 <int-e> e.g. http://sprunge.us/WDdd
15:09:27 <Halite[PC]> "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" "The red junglefowl.
15:11:54 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: coelurosaurians hth
15:13:27 <Halite[PC]> It's a good answer. After all, the first chicken was born out of a junglefowl-chicken hybird's egg.
15:14:15 <oerjan> <kmc> shachaf: i visited https://twitter.com/catcafecalico while I was in Japan <-- /me doesn't get whether that is a café for cats or with cats. also, what is with all the turkish trending on twitter? i guess besiktas might refer to the football team.
15:14:25 <int-e> http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/020119.html ("Both of you want to buy the last can of dog food. This raises the question, who of you came first?")
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15:15:04 <myname> i hate nichtlustig for not working with my custom css
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15:16:07 <oerjan> ok http://wandertokyo.com/cat-cafe-calico/ explains in english
15:16:53 <oerjan> for your coffee and toxoplasmosis needs.
15:17:25 * oerjan is probably infected anyway.
15:19:29 * oerjan wonders what might be the youngest ancestor of chickens that _didn't_ have eggs.
15:20:07 <oerjan> probably older than vertebrates.
15:21:05 <oerjan> well i guess it might have to be just before sex.
15:21:19 <oerjan> so something protozoan
15:24:08 <oerjan> int-e: don't look at today's comic hth
15:26:40 <int-e> oerjan: hmm. the usual. only one in ten of those are funny anyway :)
15:27:00 <int-e> and ... another smiley.
15:27:46 <Halite[PC]> anyway oerjan, we don't have eggs how do we multiply
15:28:28 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: women have egg cells.
15:29:56 <Halite[PC]> what came first, the bacteria or the egg cell
15:30:14 <int-e> bacteria divide and conquer
15:30:19 <oerjan> twist: the bacteria were the egg cells all along?
15:30:57 <oerjan> i have a tooth like this after a biking accident http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/131031.html
15:31:22 <oerjan> i guess that means i should hunt down and kill the guy i collided with. or his teeth, maybe.
15:31:41 <oerjan> too bad i was too shocked to remember who it was.
15:31:57 <int-e> "RADICAL TOOTH" hmm :)
15:32:47 <int-e> but apparently, no tooth symbol in unicode
15:34:01 <oerjan> maybe there's a hieroglyph and you have to know the word for tooth in egyptian to find it.
15:35:21 <Slereah> I have a middle egyptian textbook
15:35:24 <nortti> http://shapecatcher.com/ ?
15:35:49 <Halite[PC]> unfortunately Google Translate doesn't support egyptian
15:36:08 <nortti> oh, that is broken atm
15:36:16 <oerjan> oh wait unicode doesn't even use the egyptian word, just a numbering scheme
15:36:20 <Slereah> Let's see the Gardiner egyptian hieroglyph sign list
15:36:33 <Slereah> Part D, PARTS OF THE HUMAN BODY
15:36:56 <Slereah> There is "lips with teeth" and "two lips and teeth"
15:37:41 <Slereah> PARTS OF MAMMALS has jawbone of an ox and tusk
15:39:46 <HackEgo> [U+9F89 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9F89]
15:39:57 <oerjan> not much of a name there either.
15:40:28 <int-e> Definition in English: uneven teeth; to disagree
15:41:37 <HackEgo> [U+9F6C CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9F6C]
15:41:50 <int-e> And ... Definition in English: uneven teeth; to disagree
15:42:22 <oerjan> is that one of those simplified vs. traditional ones?
15:42:27 <HackEgo> [U+0002 DUNNO] [U+0003 DUNNO] [U+001F DUNNO] [U+001D DUNNO]
15:42:59 <oerjan> Slereah: unicode is not magic. only pain.
15:43:42 <HackEgo> [U+0048 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
15:44:20 <int-e> well, as far as I can see, one has four lambdas (I suppose those are the teeth?) and the other one has only one.
15:44:34 <oerjan> hmm http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/131023.html
15:46:46 <int-e> Lemmings are a recurring theme. My favourite goes something like "You want me to buy a bicycle just because all your friends have one, too? ..." "... If all your friends were to jump off a bridge, would you also ..." "... Never mind. I'll buy you the bicycle."
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15:48:35 <int-e> Ah, not a bicycle, just a scooter. http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/020906.html
15:48:57 <int-e> (and the bridge is a cliff.)
15:51:45 <Halite[PC]> int-e: well if my family did then I would
15:52:38 <myname> int-e: something tells me you might be german
15:52:57 <int-e> myname: that is interesting. what gave me away?
15:53:14 <myname> int-e: i can tell from being one myself ;)
15:53:47 <oerjan> wait do we have a german inflation here
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15:54:20 <myname> you make it sound like it is something bad
15:54:36 <oerjan> well if we go by history there'll soon be billions of you
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15:58:51 <Halite[PC]> Is there a negative time period before the Big Bang? I've always wondered that
15:59:56 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: there's endless speculation?
16:01:04 <oerjan> the math breaks down. you can make all kinds of theories.
16:01:13 <Slereah> Well it doesn't really break down
16:01:20 <Slereah> But it hinges on some other things
16:02:18 <oerjan> i'm not sure PETA approves of this http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/130912.html
16:10:33 <oerjan> i'd recommend buying more matching sets http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/130820.html
16:15:32 <int-e> oerjan: btw I'm not sure whether you're trying to make me feel guilty about linking to that comic, but if so, you're succeeding.
16:16:09 <mroman_> Ok. So. A language based on the knappsack problem makes no sense if you have infinite storage
16:16:42 <mroman_> The idea would have been, that a value N occupies N cells
16:18:10 <mroman_> so it'd esseantilly be bitfuck
16:18:20 <Halite[PC]> a value N could also take log_2(N) cells
16:18:57 <Halite[PC]> which makes me think that a log_1(N) = N
16:19:46 <mroman_> my second idea is that you have a 2D (or 1D) storage
16:19:53 <mroman_> and a value N distorts nearby cells
16:20:03 <mroman_> and the higher N, the higher and more cells it distorts
16:20:37 <mroman_> like uhm 256 distorts cell[i +- 1] by 128, cell[i +- 2] by 64 and so on
16:20:53 <mroman_> which is also boring, if you have infinite storage
16:21:02 <mroman_> (i.e just use every 1000iest cell)
16:21:14 <mroman_> Conclusion: Everything is boring if it has infinite storage.
16:22:59 <mroman_> I have no idea what that even is.
16:23:32 <mroman_> Is that the stuff that is larger than finite stuff
16:23:33 <Halite[PC]> a number that is less than infinity and more than any finite number
16:23:41 <Halite[PC]> there are multiple transfinite numbers
16:23:52 <mroman_> I have no idea how that would work
16:24:02 <mroman_> It does not make any sense at all (intuitively)
16:24:11 <mroman_> How can something be bigger then finite
16:24:21 <mroman_> when everything that is not infinite, is probably finite
16:24:43 <Halite[PC]> What I mean is that they ARE infinite but they're not always going to be equal another of their kind
16:25:00 <Halite[PC]> e.g. let's say w is a transfinite ordinal. 2w > w. w+1 > w
16:25:19 <mroman_> It avoids infinity + 1 == infinity?
16:25:40 <Halite[PC]> it's not exactly infinity because there is a number more than w
16:25:55 <Halite[PC]> and with w you can make an infinitesimal -- lets name it e
16:26:13 <mroman_> don't bother explaining it to me
16:26:17 <mroman_> I won't understand it. Seriously.
16:27:11 <mroman_> I don't have enough math background to even understand the explanations ;)
16:27:34 <Halite[PC]> I bet you have computational background though
16:28:33 <mroman_> I'm the guy who replaces your broken Ethernet Cable
16:29:23 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: 2w = w, you mean 2w > w hth
16:29:38 <mroman_> I'm that kind of computer scientist
16:29:38 <oerjan> *Halite[PC]: 2w = w, you mean w2 > w hth
16:29:42 <mroman_> not really a scientist at all
16:30:18 <Halite[PC]> oerjan: I understand. That's in the surreals. The hyperreals keep communative operations.
16:30:32 <oerjan> no, not surreals. ordinals.
16:32:17 <oerjan> no, it only holds for infinite w.
16:32:54 <oerjan> the 2w = w holds for limit ordinals.
16:35:24 <Halite[PC]> the limit of {-infinity, ..., x} is x. and that's an infinite set.
16:35:29 <mroman_> Halite[PC]: The only reason I'm here is because I read some paper thingies back when I was a teenager
16:36:04 <mroman_> and I wrote interpreters etc.
16:36:59 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: is that supposed to contradict me somehow?
16:37:04 <fizzie> oerjan: You can just refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Omega-exp-omega-labeled.svg then it's all so clear.
16:37:09 <oerjan> (there are no negative ordinals.)
16:37:56 <oerjan> fizzie: thank you, i was pondering linking to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic#Cantor_normal_form
16:38:10 <Halite[PC]> the limit of {0, 1/w, 2/w, 3/w, ..., 1, 1 + 1/w, 1 + 2/w, ... x} is x
16:38:14 <fizzie> But that's not a picture at all. :/
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16:39:14 * oerjan has no(*) idea why Halite[PC] keeps dragging surreals and hyperreals into this. ((*) not true)
16:40:42 <Halite[PC]> Ah yes. The practice of lieing then admitting.
16:42:34 <Slereah> Hyperreals are pretty neat!
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17:12:50 <Slereah> Do you have an apple for a face
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18:07:15 <mroman_> I'm still on the search for a book abouth math
18:07:43 <Taneb> I have one about 17 equations that changed the world
18:07:53 <Taneb> I think that's at least partially about maths
18:08:02 <Taneb> One of them is actually an inequality which makes me sad
18:08:18 <mroman_> I'm looking for one that is ordered in order of discovery
18:08:35 <mroman_> so I can aquire math knowledge in the order that makes sense
18:09:08 <quintopia> mroman_: http://www.math.wustl.edu/~sk/books/newhist.pdf ? :P
18:09:19 <quintopia> mroman_: also, the historical order frequently doesn't make sense
18:10:33 <mroman_> When you learn math now you get teached stuff like uhm fourier stuff
18:10:40 <mroman_> but you don't actually know enough
18:10:51 <mroman_> it feels like you're missing something that was invented before that
18:11:41 <mroman_> I figured learning in historical order should prevent me from stumbling upon anything I don't know the basics of
18:11:44 <quintopia> mroman_: no seriously. frequently, the simplifying assumptions that make a topic teachable frequently come after the major theorems are discovered in another context
18:12:04 <quintopia> for instance, newton's calculus, which he used to do all that physics stuff
18:12:29 <mroman_> isn't that the same as leibniz's calculus?
18:12:46 <lexande> mroman_: leibniz's notation is much better/easier to use
18:13:09 <lexande> but also, neither of them had any kind of rigorous foundation for it
18:13:29 <lexande> it involved significant handwaving
18:14:11 <lexande> and you put in some non-integrable function and stuff blows up and you don't know why
18:14:42 <lexande> they basically didn't know what they were doing, but managed to get it right enough for physics anyway
18:17:33 <lexande> that said, i definitely wish i'd had more background before being taught fourier
18:18:28 <lexande> i think it's pretty common to charge into it as quickly as possible for the benefit of the physicists in the audience
18:35:39 <mroman_> Maybe they had no idea what they were doing
18:35:48 <mroman_> but I'm sure they contributed a lot to math
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19:18:54 <Bike> i think the problem with newton's calculus is more that he did all this insane crap with geometry to deal with planets
19:19:07 <Bike> seriously, have you tried reading the principia, it's crazy
19:28:16 <Bike> i kind of sympathize with where mroman_'s coming from though, not that i'd actually recommend a fully historical order. mroman_, have you heard of "Mathematics: Its Content, Methods and Meaning"? it's supposed to be real good
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19:58:59 <Halite[PC]> I'm going to make a computer algebra system. Wish me luck.
20:01:48 <FreeFull> Bike: What about Leibnitz's calculus?
20:04:23 <Bike> what about it?
20:05:34 <FreeFull> How does it compare to Newtons? I've never actually looked at the work Newton and Leibnitz did on calculus
20:05:51 <Bike> beats me. i don't even know what he was using it for.
20:06:01 <Bike> i've only read part of newton's because historians seem to like it.
20:06:11 <Bike> i would guess that they're both near incomprehensible to my modern eyes, though!
20:07:08 <FreeFull> Well, it probably took some time to settle on notation
20:07:45 <Bike> not notation. the general forms of arguments.
20:08:08 <Bike> this is like, practically before algebraicization.
20:08:31 <Bike> they weren't just doing the same kind of math in a different alphabet, is what i'm sayin.
20:09:02 <Bike> though this reminds me, did you know that the derivative was invented by pierre de fermat?
20:10:27 <FreeFull> Writing everything out in words is notation too =P
20:10:45 <FreeFull> Fermat was a smart guy, no doubt
20:11:52 <Bike> they're different words, i'm telling you.
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20:28:16 <Halite[PC]> Did you know that the formulae for area of a circle are also related to other integral-based formulas in that they describe the 'inside' of a semantic or geometrical object?
20:28:42 <Bike> you didn't learn that in calculus?
20:29:23 <Bike> i did so many problems about finding the volumes of ridiculous shapes, you don't even know
20:29:25 <Halite[PC]> I should still have the knowledge of a child in Year 6.
20:29:55 <Bike> what's the volume of gabriel's horn
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20:32:33 <Bike> also you don't need to give me or anyone digits of e really
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20:33:41 <myname> i consider e much more beautiful than pi
20:34:02 <Bike> i consider the dalles more beautiful than stupid numbers WHAT NOW NERD
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20:36:24 <Bike> there's a train across the entire horizon.
20:37:01 <Bike> do i need to take some lunch money
20:37:43 <zzo38> Do you prefer to use 2pi as a constant? (When this is done, it is called tau, and I have used it in some programs such as a Csound extension which does this)
20:38:20 <Bike> i just write 'half the circumference of the unit circle' like gauss
20:38:22 <Bike> as god intended
20:39:14 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe, but it is sometimes useful (other times, using pi is useful; other times neither is useful)
20:39:44 <zzo38> But I do think e seems a more beautiful than pi, too, I suppose
20:40:09 <Bike> that's it, give me your lunch money or i'll stuff you in a locker
20:40:22 <Halite[PC]> Phantom_Hoover: Why is it 'smarmy'? Does that mean it is 'elegant'?
20:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> it's 'elegant', as interpreted by people whose concept of elegance comes from looking at pictures of fractals and videos by vi hart
20:42:35 <shachaf> i liked 2pi before it was cool and/or called tau
20:42:45 <shachaf> remember http://www.math.utah.edu/~palais/pi.pdf
20:43:05 <Bike> imo pi², comes up all the time!! in zeta functions!!
20:43:11 <Bike> and who doesn't like zeta functions
20:43:12 <zzo38> Well, you cannot call a C macro "2pi" so I called it TAU
20:43:28 <shachaf> zzo38: you can call it pi2
20:43:38 <shachaf> anyway the way that pdf draws it is a pi with 3 legs
20:43:43 <Bike> but that might be confused with Bike's Cool Constant, shachaf
20:43:52 <shachaf> you know it's good when it doesn't even have a unicode codepoint
20:43:59 <myname> it still needs a symbol, though
20:44:10 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose if you want that symbol you could make a METAFONT program to draw it
20:44:14 <Halite[PC]> Bike: zeta is based on integral, and integral brings a half factor
20:44:26 <zzo38> It doesn't need a Unicode codepoint
20:44:30 <shachaf> myname: no, it can just go away and be gone
20:44:33 <Bike> WHOA A HALF FACTOR
20:46:01 <myname> i like the "everybody is equally fucked up" approach
20:46:03 <Halite[PC]> I totally support tau. You can't have a constant which is half of some important value. It has to be that value.
20:46:10 <shachaf> Halite[PC]: Weren't you banned?
20:46:24 <myname> Halite[PC]: tau^2/4 sucks
20:46:34 <Bike> i think it was a temp ban or something
20:46:45 <shachaf> Oh, maybe it was just #haskell and related channels.
20:47:05 <myname> Halite[PC]: you can't have a constant which is double of some important value
20:47:16 <Halite[PC]> myname: unfortunately pi is not an important value
20:47:22 <shachaf> For sending "creative" spam to the people who banned you.
20:48:52 <myname> also, pau is very handy for spheres, 2pau is much better than 4/3 pi or 2/3 tau!
20:51:48 <Halite[PC]> idk why all the mathematicians don't support tau
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20:52:34 <Halite[PC]> there's no reason to keep pi, all of the arguments for pi are just rewritten points that tau argued successifully against
20:52:42 <myname> because there is no reason to adapt tau :p
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20:54:41 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, ...
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21:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i was playing xcom the other day and there was some random npc called van doorn
21:10:07 <Bike> what's 48÷2(9+3)
21:10:22 <ais523> is this a trick question?
21:10:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what did van doorn do
21:10:35 <ais523> it looks like maybe a check to see how people will interpret associativity
21:10:40 <Bike> ais523: no, it's just about as interesting as tau.
21:10:44 <ais523> my answer is, "2 is not a function"
21:10:50 <ais523> or alternatively, 2 is a function
21:11:01 <Bike> is it a good function
21:11:23 <Bike> that's pretty good.
21:11:54 <Bike> i suppose 9 is the ninth power of a function, and so on?
21:12:38 <ais523> this is how you do numbers in, say, Underload or Unlambda
21:12:43 <Bike> looks like the expression still has problems, then.
21:14:25 <FreeFull> 2 is not a function unless there is a function instance for Num
21:14:54 <FreeFull> In which case the answer is 24
21:14:59 <Bike> we're interpreting the other numerals as functions as well, freefull.
21:15:16 <ais523> well, 9+3 is the twelth-power function
21:15:25 <ais523> so 2 is that function composed with itself
21:15:59 <FreeFull> I'd expect 9+3 to be the same as 12, even if 9 and 3 are functions
21:16:43 <ais523> a+b is defined as a(succ)(b)
21:17:29 <Bike> clearly + should just be succ so you don't need to define that.
21:18:27 <ais523> Bike: except that then it'd become nofix rather than infix
21:18:43 <Bike> as god intended.
21:18:45 <ais523> hmm… that sounds like an esolang idea
21:18:56 <ais523> all the operators are nofix, just values
21:19:01 <ais523> and the data are infix, postfix, etc.
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21:36:41 <Bike> https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/Projects:Hammer_and_Tongs oh, neat.
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21:47:43 <FireFly> if 2 is \f → f.f and 1 is id, what is 0?
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21:48:56 <Bike> FreeFull: \f -> id, probably
21:51:39 <FireFly> That makes sense I suppose
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21:54:10 <shachaf> It's just representing n as \f -> f^n
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21:55:47 <Bike> kind of hard when you try to get negatives, eh
21:56:38 <shachaf> Note that inhabitants of the type (forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a) exactly correspond to the naturals.
21:58:42 <shachaf> Or of the type (forall r. (Maybe r -> r) -> r), of course. I.e. Mu Maybe
21:59:16 <ion> Mu Shachaf
21:59:53 <Bike> does that sum with 1 right?
21:59:57 <Bike> (\xy.x)(succ)(\x.x) => (\y.succ)(\x.x) => succ
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22:20:06 <Slereah> Guys, is there a theorem that says that all TC things have like
22:20:30 <Slereah> I know there's one that the smallest Turing machines have 2 states, 3 symbols or vice versa
22:20:57 <Slereah> Logical combinators have 3 symbols, and two rules
22:21:18 <Slereah> OISC has three symbols, and I guess two possible behaviour?
22:21:31 <Slereah> Just wondering if there's an overall rule for that
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22:27:58 <Bike> though i'll have to remember that next time i need to be discordian.
22:28:35 <Slereah> After all all algorithms can be defined by a set of symbol, a grammar and transformation rules
22:28:50 <Slereah> So I guess you might be able to put limits on it
22:28:59 <Bike> basically 'things' isn't something you can generalize across.
22:30:38 <shachaf> i have five things am i tc
22:31:22 <quintopia> shachaf: you are clearly a finite state automaton
22:31:32 <Slereah> I have 99 problems but turing completeness isn't one of them
22:31:53 <Bike> i have ninety-nine problems and it's probably possible to reduce about half of them to the halting problem.
22:33:14 <quintopia> i got 99 problems but an STD ain't one
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22:47:45 <Bike> kmc: i like the joyent response.
22:52:00 <Bike> can't help but laugh at 'consider yourself chided'
22:54:18 <kmc> "God, this is so sad. This is the smallest amount of power I've ever seen go to someone's head."
22:55:36 <quintopia> clearly they never watched the green mile
22:55:38 <Bike> also glad i'm getting this from someone who calls themselves 'wizandrist'
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23:00:55 <FreeFull> Bike: I'd say 98 problems are reducible
23:01:18 <Bike> one of my problems is to count exactly how many of the problems are reducible to the halting problem.
23:01:31 <FreeFull> For the 99th one, you can't figure out if the algorithm for creating an algorithm will ever halt
23:02:12 <ais523> I guess it's generally undecidable whether problems reduce to the halting problem?
23:03:44 <zzo38> Any TNT string can be a halting problem for an oracle machine, I think.
23:05:07 <FreeFull> Can you state your problem in TNT form in the first place though?
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23:05:51 <zzo38> First to convert all of "forall" into "exists" (using the logical negation operators in order to do so), and then, to try them until one number succeeds the check.
23:06:12 <zzo38> FreeFull: Perhaps not; what is your problem anyways?
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23:24:00 <Taneb> Stephen Wolfram sounds like an esolanger with too much money and power
23:24:52 <oerjan> `run echo "Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power." >wisdom/wolfram
23:25:27 <oerjan> (i apologize to all those who don't want to be in the same category as him.)
23:25:28 <myname> oerjan: should have mentioned the source
23:25:46 <Taneb> "Stephen Wolfrom is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him."
23:25:50 <ais523> it's a different sort of esolanging
23:26:05 <oerjan> ok Taneb convinced me.
23:26:15 <oerjan> `run echo "Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him." >wisdom/wolfram
23:26:28 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go.
23:26:59 <Taneb> `? automatic squirrel feeders
23:27:01 <HackEgo> automatic squirrel feeders? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:27:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/torus,/torus, Stephen Wolfram,/' wisdom/tanebventions
23:27:17 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/tanebventions: No such file or directory
23:27:25 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/torus,/torus, Stephen Wolfram,/' wisdom/tanebvention
23:28:02 <oerjan> `run ln -s wisdom/{stephen ,}wolfram
23:28:13 <HackEgo> stephen wolfram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:28:17 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
23:28:23 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:28:58 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*wolfram
23:29:21 <oerjan> `run ln -s wisdom/{,"stephen "}wolfram
23:29:24 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/stephen wolfram': Not a directory
23:29:45 <oerjan> ok what does that expand to
23:30:06 <zzo38> `run echo wisdom/{,"stephen "}wolfram
23:30:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/wolfram wisdom/stephen wolfram
23:30:35 <Taneb> `echo "Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them" > wisdom/automatic\ squirrel\ feeders # i got that wrong didn't i
23:30:37 <HackEgo> "Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them" > wisdom/automatic\ squirrel\ feeders # i got that wrong didn't i
23:30:42 <Taneb> `run echo "Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them" > wisdom/automatic\ squirrel\ feeders # i got that wrong didn't i
23:30:56 <Taneb> `? automatic squirrel feeders
23:30:58 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them
23:31:07 <oerjan> `run ln -s wolfram wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:31:08 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/stephen wolfram': Not a directory
23:31:44 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*wolfram: No such file or directory
23:31:48 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*wolfram
23:31:49 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory \ wisdom/wolfram
23:32:08 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:32:15 <myname> also, i like the automatic squirrel feeders
23:32:15 <HackEgo> stephen wolfram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:32:22 <ais523> `run touch wisdom/"cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory"
23:32:23 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `wisdom/cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory': No such file or directory
23:32:48 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
23:33:00 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:33:01 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
23:33:01 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/"stephen wolfram": No such file or directory
23:33:09 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:33:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory
23:33:17 <oerjan> `run rm wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:33:20 <ais523> hey, this ls is broken
23:33:26 <ais523> ls -d specifically doesn't list the contents of a directory
23:33:29 <ais523> just the directory itself
23:33:39 <zzo38> You should remove that ls anyways
23:33:52 <zzo38> The first few files aren't named after nicks, for one thing
23:33:53 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/ste*: No such file or directory
23:34:07 <oerjan> zzo38 has a point, although i don't like it.
23:35:00 <oerjan> `run ln -s wolfram wisdom/"stephen wolfram"; ? "stephen wolfram"
23:35:03 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/stephen wolfram': File exists \ bash: -: command not found
23:35:24 <oerjan> am i getting the order wrong or something
23:36:30 <oerjan> `run ln -T -s wolfram wisdom/"stephen wolfram"; ? "stephen wolfram"
23:36:32 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/stephen wolfram': File exists \ bash: -: command not found
23:36:32 <FreeFull> File exists means your rm doesn't seem to have worked
23:36:47 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*wolfram: No such file or directory
23:36:48 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:36:49 <zzo38> Try /bin/ls instead of ls if you need to I suppose
23:36:54 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*wolfram
23:36:56 <HackEgo> wisdom/stephen wolfram \ wisdom/wolfram
23:37:02 <ais523> `run /bin/ls -d wisdom
23:37:12 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:37:26 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/*wolfram
23:37:28 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 7 Nov 30 23:35 wisdom/stephen wolfram -> wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
23:37:30 <FreeFull> `? run rm -f "wisdom/stephen wolfram"
23:37:32 <HackEgo> run rm -f "wisdom/stephen wolfram"? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:37:37 <FreeFull> `run rm -f "wisdom/stephen wolfram"
23:37:50 <HackEgo> stephen wolfram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:38:11 <HackEgo> bc ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
23:38:18 <fizzie> FreeFull: "There you go, I broke it for you"?
23:38:41 <FreeFull> fizzie: He's been trying to delete it
23:39:25 <fizzie> FreeFull: To create a symlink, which based on the last ls was already there.
23:40:41 <FreeFull> `run ln -s wisdom/wolfram "wisdom/stephen wolfram" && echo "success"
23:40:45 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/stephen wolfram': Not a directory
23:41:39 <fizzie> Yeah, I think you just generated the wrong symlink again.
23:41:43 <fizzie> `run ls -l wisdom/*wolfram
23:41:44 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 14 Nov 30 23:40 wisdom/stephen wolfram -> wisdom/wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
23:42:00 <fizzie> (That's supposed to point at "wolfram", not "wisdom/wolfram".)
23:42:22 <FreeFull> I thought that since it errored it wouldn't make a symlink though
23:42:36 <ais523> aimake's symlink command has a more sensible argument pattern
23:42:43 <ais523> you give the source and destination relative to .
23:42:52 <ais523> and it automatically works out what should be put in the symlink
23:42:54 <FreeFull> `run /bin/ls -l wisdom/*wolfram
23:42:55 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
23:43:01 <oerjan> `run ln -s wolfram "wisdom/stephen wolfram"
23:43:11 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:43:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Much ado about a Wolfram.
23:43:29 <oerjan> i have no idea why that didn't seem to work the first time i did it.
23:43:39 <oerjan> fizzie: that's the usual, isn't it
23:45:53 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/"automatic squirrel feeder"{s,}
23:46:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/"automatic squirrel feeder"
23:47:06 <oerjan> `? automatic squirrel feeders
23:47:08 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
23:48:54 <FreeFull> `run grep "Taneb invented them." "wisdom/*" | wc -l
23:48:55 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/*: No such file or directory \ 0
23:49:03 <FreeFull> `run grep "Taneb invented them." wisdom/* | wc -l
23:49:07 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory \ 3
23:49:36 <FreeFull> What's up with this not a directory error
23:49:46 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/stephen wolfram
23:49:48 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory
23:50:01 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:50:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory
23:50:03 <fizzie> It's has magically turned to the wrong symlink again.
23:50:08 <fizzie> `run ls -l wisdom/*wolf*
23:50:10 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 14 Nov 30 23:45 wisdom/stephen wolfram -> wisdom/wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
23:50:10 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:50:16 <HackEgo> stephen wolfram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:50:19 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with that.
23:51:24 <oerjan> `run rm "wisdom/stephen wolfram"; cp wisdom/{,"stephen "}wolfram
23:51:25 <fizzie> The repository browser has disapparated oerjan's fixups.
23:51:36 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:51:43 <FreeFull> `run grep "Taneb invented them." wisdom/* | wc -l
23:51:49 <FreeFull> `run grep "Taneb invented" wisdom/* | wc -l
23:52:30 <oerjan> i guess there has been previous warnings that symbolic links don't work well with HackEgo.
23:52:33 <fizzie> `run grep -li 'taneb invented' wisdom/*
23:52:36 <HackEgo> wisdom/automatic squirrel feeder \ wisdom/d-module \ wisdom/stephen wolfram \ wisdom/torus \ wisdom/wolfram
23:52:53 <fizzie> I hope he'll put all that in his CV.
23:53:01 -!- _46bit has joined.
23:53:17 <HackEgo> _46bit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:53:37 <_46bit> Esoteric bot welcome colouring as well!
23:54:03 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:54:17 <fungot> Taneb: fnord __theo but i don't like
23:54:20 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
23:55:13 <oerjan> beware of _46bit, e's a massive multiplayer online krysz.
23:56:42 <oerjan> also i suspect Taneb invented him.
23:56:56 <kmc> what's a "TNT string"?
23:57:11 <zzo38> kmc: Something Hofstadter made up, I think.
23:57:23 <Taneb> kmc, it's a fuse for an explosive
23:57:32 <oerjan> a very unsafe text representation format.
23:57:58 <FreeFull> It'd be interesting if wisdom factoids were actually scripts in some programming language
23:58:21 <FreeFull> Bonus points for making all the current ones work fine in the new system
23:58:28 <Taneb> kmc, more seriously, it's a string in Typographical Number Theory