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00:25:35 <kmc> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24328773 news article about hot, naked finns
00:41:28 <oerjan> exactly what i expected.
00:42:25 <kmc> it's cool that you can get a sauna box for watching the ice hockey game
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01:00:07 <Sgeo> If Racket-style metaprogramming is compilation-like, and Tcl-style metaprogramming is interpretation-like, what is Ruby-style metaprogramming?
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01:05:14 <oerjan> kmc: bbc's habit of dropping all accents looks really weird when clashing with finnish vowel harmony
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01:05:51 <oerjan> like, i _new_ loyly couldn't be correct, despite never having seen the word before.
01:06:17 <Sgeo> "If compilers can't understand the program, humans probably don't have a good shot either"
01:07:34 <oerjan> kmc: and it gets particularly ridiculous when they're making a short _dictionary_...
01:08:12 <zzo38> What is Forth-style metaprogramming, Unofficial-MagicKit-style metaprogramming, CLC-INTERCAL-style metaprogramming, etc?
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01:19:39 <kmc> bonghits-style metaprogramming
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01:25:37 <oerjan> in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24330722 they managed to keep an ı in kısanak but dropped a lot of other accents.
01:25:49 <oerjan> (also that looks like some progress)
01:27:20 <kmc> maybe the policy is that they will always remove dots but never add them
01:28:44 <oerjan> well sirri sakik should have had the dots dropped too, so it's simply very inconsistent.
01:31:16 <oerjan> (also gulten kısanak is still not _correct_, there are two other letters that _should_ have accents. and wikipedia thinks the e should be an a.)
01:32:06 <kmc> my font makes ı look ugly :(
01:32:12 <kmc> it should look exactly the same as i without the dot, yeah?
01:36:04 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
01:36:32 <shachaf> that was the only reason i came back
01:37:31 <shachaf> oerjan: what is it and why does it sapple
01:38:07 <oerjan> sorry my recollection of dmm australian is weak
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01:44:59 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> aaaaaurgh. you're making me think on a Monday! that shouldn't be happening!
01:45:03 <HackEgo> 1114) <boily> aaaaaurgh. you're making me think on a Monday! that shouldn't be happening!
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02:17:57 <Sgeo> (define-syntax-rule (defer . e)
02:17:58 <Sgeo> (defer-funcall ((λ () . e))))
02:18:17 <Sgeo> err, Racket? Some languages don't have lambda syntax that's so verbose people feel like reaching for macros to hide them in
02:27:06 <Sgeo> Ok, I'll admit how the list of definitions in DrRacket knows about defines produced by macros
02:27:11 <Sgeo> ^that that's neat
02:48:24 <Sgeo> At least from a "that would be completely impossible in Tcl" standpoint
02:55:12 <^v> am i looking at an entire convorsation
02:55:20 <^v> because it seems you are talking to yourself
02:59:48 <coppro> ^v: we get that a lot around here
03:02:54 <oerjan> this is nothing against oklopol's famous monologues
03:20:13 <zzo38> ^v: Sometimes an entire conversation does involve talking to yourself, in here, mostly in case someone else doesn't want to answer for some reason (such as not knowing the answer, or not on the IRC window)
03:24:39 <Sgeo> There's an obvious type mismatch between Qoppa and Racket
03:24:50 <Sgeo> Racket functions take values, Qoppa operatives take code
03:25:33 <Sgeo> Qoppa "functions" should ideally just be operatives that eval the code they're passed, so can't just say "Only Qoppa functions may be passed to Racket code"
03:26:10 <Sgeo> Maybe Racket values, when given to a Qoppa operative, are sort of opaque things that the only thing you can do with them is eval to get an actual value
03:48:35 <Bike> the days were those.
03:48:57 <oklopol> also i have a feeling the guy who wrote the sauna article has never even been to a finnish sauna
03:49:06 <oklopol> "Within seconds a wave of moist heat creeps up around your ankles and over your legs before enveloping your whole body. Your pores open up and sweat covers you from head to toe."
03:49:19 <oklopol> creeps up around your ankles?
03:51:55 <oklopol> also loyly should obviously have umlaut
04:04:36 <oerjan> oklopol: see further discussion about how they mangled turkish
04:06:26 <kmc> perhaps i should have called them qopperatives
04:07:43 <oklopol> yeah i kind of guessed that you have already mentioned the loyly issue
04:08:23 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/diPCS5C.jpg
04:08:24 <oklopol> they could have at least written loulu
04:08:46 <Sgeo> kmc: thanks for the nightmares
04:09:25 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1nhglw/test_alliance_is_disbanding/
04:14:58 <kmc> welp the US government is officially shut down
04:15:33 <Bike> happy mad max day! hand over your fucking water or i'll blow your head off
04:16:16 <kmc> Bike: well if you were in #ptopology you'd already know where I stashed the water
04:16:34 <kmc> <kmc> btw the deal in exchange for me telling y'all where I put the emergency water is, you have to promise not to murder me in an apocalyptic looting-type scenario <kmc> unless I've already turned into a zombie. in that case, go nuts, have fun with it
04:16:50 <Bike> does "fun" include experimentation
04:17:16 <kmc> zombi-curious
04:18:40 <Bike> i was thinking more like, vivisection, but i'm willing to spread out. like, mentally, in addition to spreading out your orifices.
04:18:56 <kmc> that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me
04:23:55 <^v> kmc is the worst person to ever live, i dont fucking care what you say but he has destroyed more peoples lives than hitler and god and godhitler combined
04:25:03 <Fiora> "godhitler" are we talking about persona 2 here?
04:29:04 <^v> we are talking about the pussy version of kmc
04:29:22 <^v> (sorry, is swearing allowed in this chan)
04:30:01 <Bike> no it fuckin ain't
04:30:05 <Bike> "pussy" is kind of a shitty insult though
04:30:19 <zzo38> ^v: I do not think there is a rule against it, but nevertheless I advise against swearing too often that that just convolutes stuff.
04:30:20 <shachaf> imo the whole "calling someone the worst person to ever live for no reason" thing is the bigger issue
04:30:30 <Bike> Fiora: i forget, was the hitler god or someone else
04:32:17 <Bike> uh wow i thought you were a persona authority? way to lie about your authority
04:32:17 <Fiora> I just know persona involves killing god and 2 has hitler somehow
04:32:22 <Fiora> I only know 3 and 4 >_<
04:32:28 <Bike> i should mention that hitler is also your dad
04:33:54 <kmc> Bike: http://web.archive.org/web/20110110081155/http://overcompensating.com/posts/20080603.html
04:35:04 <kmc> `pastequotes fuck
04:35:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17910
04:35:17 <Bike> i wish i was self cleaning
04:35:24 <kmc> aren't you
04:35:47 <kmc> `quote 242
04:35:49 <HackEgo> 242) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
04:35:54 <kmc> pretty curious about the context of this one................
04:36:59 <Sgeo> There was a woman who seemed to like me but when I texted her had no idea who I was
04:37:10 <Sgeo> Even though I had given her my number before
04:37:19 <Sgeo> And had texted her before telling her who was texting her
04:37:32 <Sgeo> ...that sounds creepy
04:37:46 <kmc> did she have pink panties tho
04:38:05 <Sgeo> I have no idea.
04:38:22 <Sgeo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20342
04:38:56 <Sgeo> `pastelog pink panties
04:39:22 <Bike> https://www.healthcare.gov/ "just to rub it in"
04:39:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25271
04:41:08 <Sgeo> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-02-28 why is this broken
04:41:54 <Bike> the formatted logs are broken. the text logs are ok. (GREGOR)
04:42:57 <Sgeo> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-02-28.txt
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04:48:45 <Sgeo> These Realm of Racket videos are making my eyes bleed
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04:48:59 <Sgeo> "OOH LOOK RACKET HAS AUTOMATIC GARBAGE COLLECTION"
04:49:53 <Bike> manual garbage collection
04:53:47 <oerjan> so how much are the rating agencies gonna downrate the USA this time
04:54:27 <coppro> it's not in a debt default
04:54:38 <oerjan> was it the last time they did?
04:54:57 <coppro> the government is no longer allowed to spend money on many things
04:55:09 <coppro> it has a bunch of provisions in place for money that needs to be paid, like debts and essential services
04:55:30 <coppro> this is what happened in the 90s
04:55:52 <coppro> the thing that people were panicing about before and might happen again come October is the debt ceiling
04:56:11 <coppro> if that gets hit, the government can no longer borrow money, and at that point it actually runs out of money and can't even spend it on essential stuff
04:56:18 <Bike> on the bright side, my firefighting-for-profit business will really shine
04:56:21 <oerjan> oh i thought this _was_ the debt ceiling.
04:56:28 <coppro> oerjan: no, it's appropriations
04:56:39 <coppro> because currently the only way that the US government can work is by borrowing massive amounts of money very rapidly
04:56:56 <coppro> oerjan: basically the authorization to spend money
04:57:34 <Bike> http://www.usda.gov <-- alright i'm officially bugging out
04:57:37 <coppro> oerjan: the authorization to spend money is the giant carrot for the administration to do what congress wants
04:58:16 <Gracenotes> Bike: very funny... hm... yeah... hm...
04:59:04 <oerjan> right you and your non-parliamentarism
04:59:44 <coppro> and the Westminster system works exactly the same way
04:59:54 <kmc> the debt ceiling is about paying the interest on the loans for money we've /already borrowed/ isn't it
05:00:00 <coppro> except that if this were any Westminster system, the PM would have already been sent packing
05:00:21 <kmc> anyway we could still get downrated for having fucked politics
05:00:24 <kmc> that was part of the last downrating
05:00:39 <coppro> kmc: yeah, and this has shown that the Dems and Reps won't compromise even when it has big consequences
05:00:45 <coppro> I would not be totally surprised by a downgrade
05:00:59 <coppro> but it won't be "OH FUCK OH FUCK OH FUCK" quite yet
05:01:14 <Sgeo> coppro: so, how likely do you think we are to deal with climate change sanely?
05:01:17 <coppro> if the US hits the debt ceiling, it will be a while before it actually defaults since it can cut spending, etc.
05:01:51 <kmc> yes let's 'compromise' with the dangerous extremists who use hostage taking as their one and only political tool
05:02:14 <coppro> kmc: you're referring to the tea party, right?
05:02:37 <kmc> the whole "both parties are at fault for not getting along" is garbage
05:03:06 <kmc> Republicans don't mind wrecking the government to prove a political point
05:03:22 <kmc> they believe govt is the problem and they are determined to use their position of power to prove it
05:03:44 <kmc> they care more about hurting Obama and the Democrats even if they destroy the economy in the process
05:03:57 <kmc> these are not people you "compromise" with
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05:04:37 <kmc> ssize_t fizziev(int fd, const struct iovec *iov, int iovcnt);
05:05:02 <kmc> we are basically fucked as long as the members of the 10% approval congress are still inexplicably getting reelected
05:05:58 <oerjan> heh usa.gov is prominently still advertising the health marketplace plan :P
05:06:17 <kmc> https://www.healthcare.gov/
05:06:41 <coppro> kmc: like, seriously. Get everyone you know to get out there and get on the campaign warpath
05:07:21 <coppro> and don't just complain about shit on the internets
05:07:38 <coppro> if you don't care, start goddamn caring
05:07:39 <kmc> thx for the advice coppro
05:07:57 <coppro> because your country is running itself into the fucking ground and taking the rest of us with it
05:07:59 <oerjan> kmc: i'm just thinking that the government might be particularly pissing off the republicans by not shutting that down
05:08:30 <coppro> oerjan: The authors of obamacare did their work and made sure it was appropriated already
05:08:37 <coppro> they're allowed to spend money on it
05:10:51 <oerjan> right, but it's still waving a red flag
05:11:30 <oerjan> 'RE GONNA KEEP OBAMACARE GOING IF NOTHING ELSE IS
05:11:59 <Bike> mad max but everyone has good hospital coverage
05:12:54 <coppro> (I refuse to call you american right now because I share a continent with you egotistical maniacs)
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05:13:07 <coppro> Sgeo, kmc: this is your mess: http://www.oecd.org/media/oecdorg/satellitesites/newsroom/44222075health%20expenditure.jpg
05:13:13 <Bike> what's mexican healthcare even like
05:13:36 <oerjan> coppro: i'm whistling innocently because i've never got the full impression of the truthfulness of that wisdom.
05:13:59 <oerjan> also bike is definitely connecting from the usa
05:14:28 <oerjan> Bike: probably socialist
05:14:49 <coppro> anything HackEgo says is true
05:18:02 <oerjan> hm norway and luxembourg are the only ones with larger public expenditure, although much less private of course
05:19:59 <Sgeo> Back during Martha Coakley's campaign, I did make some calls for her campaign
05:20:04 <oerjan> they just "opened" trondheim's renovated hospital (it's been running all through the rebuilding process)
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05:26:02 <coppro> there are only 6 OECD countries that spend more on health care per capita than the US private sector does
05:27:58 <Sgeo> Why did the PLT team design such a .. bizarre OO system for Racket
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05:51:34 <Bike> kmc: http://billmoyers.com/2013/09/30/shutdown-imminent-how-he-said-she-said-reporting-helped-bring-us-to-the-brink/ nice article re: "both parties are at fault for not getting along", if you haven't seen it yet
05:52:39 <Bike> i guess it's still a nice article if you have seen it.
06:15:35 <zzo38> Have you programmed in SNOBOL?
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06:38:15 <zzo38> Is this OK so far? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/hwpl.txt Tell me what kind of things may be added/removed/changed/idea/question/complain.
07:07:34 <zzo38> The "interleave" and "select" operators of INTERCAL are built-in to HWPL (although the "interleave" operator is called MORTON).
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07:12:02 <Taneb> I'm pretty happy today
07:12:11 <zzo38> Is there any reason?
07:12:31 <Taneb> Last night I found out that someone I met at uni has read my MSPAFA
07:13:03 <Taneb> MS Paint Adventures Fan Adventure
07:13:11 <Taneb> It's a story in the format of MSPA
07:14:04 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:14:19 <Taneb> Also, someone's just followed me on Tumblr I think because I posted some Haskell
07:14:37 <shachaf> Taneb: do you follow me on twitter
07:16:13 <shachaf> was it because of haskell i posted
07:16:17 <myname> give that tumblrer some haskell
07:16:24 <myname> tumblerers love haskell
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07:18:11 <Taneb> shachaf, no it was because you linked it once
07:18:34 <shachaf> were all the tweets to your satisfaction
07:18:35 <olsner> has shachaf tweeted anything yet?
07:18:50 <shachaf> olsner: yes (but no more than last time)
07:19:02 <Taneb> I don't know I haven't been on twitter in ages
07:19:07 <olsner> but "@shachaf hasn't tweeted yet."
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07:20:16 <myname> twitter should die already
07:20:44 <shachaf> olsner: i tweeted and deleted
07:21:55 <myname> if you do this, do retweets get deleted, too?
07:22:46 <Taneb> shachaf, how does it feel to be living in an anarchy?
07:23:26 <zzo38> FOR ?A IN #16 BITS: CASE ?A: RESULT ?A[#15 TO #8]*?A[#7 TO #0]; It is a HWPL code to make a ROM of multiplication data. Is this OK like this, to you?
07:45:54 <shachaf> It's hard to believe that a certain individual has been in #haskell for over three years.
07:46:54 <olsner> are you the certain individual?
07:48:03 <shachaf> I have the individual on /ignore so I don't actually really know what they're saying.
07:48:09 <Taneb> Am /I/ the individual?
07:48:36 <shachaf> [is this the part where i pretend i didn't hear what Taneb said]
07:53:11 <Taneb> Actually, how long have I been in #haskell
07:55:51 <shachaf> Well, who knows how many nicks you had previously.
07:56:53 <Taneb> I think I was Taneb when I joined
07:58:16 <shachaf> The people in #haskell actually seem to think some good will come out of this.
07:59:16 <Taneb> I have a poor memory for people, what's the issue?
08:00:05 <shachaf> People are making lots of noise so I can't sleep.
08:00:51 <shachaf> But in #haskell it's just general hopelessness.
08:06:34 <Taneb> shachaf, you done much interesting lately?
08:07:09 <shachaf> the wold is emptiness and void and people WON'T BE QUIET
08:15:49 <Taneb> ...am I the only person who understood lenses without really trying?
08:16:15 <shachaf> Lenses are pretty straightforward.
08:16:47 <Taneb> I mean specifically the van whatshisname lenses
08:16:59 <shachaf> However, learning about lenses does require some capacity for learning.
08:16:59 <mnoqy> those are straightforward too
08:17:54 <Taneb> Actually, iirc when I first learnt lenses I was really confused and didn't know what was going on but that was with data-lens
08:19:09 <mnoqy> didn;t data-lens use an even straightforwarder representation though
08:19:32 <shachaf> data-lens used s -> Store a s or something
08:19:56 <Taneb> The store comonad coalgebra
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09:01:28 <zzo38> I know I must understand lenses because I almost invented it independently once.
09:07:21 <zzo38> (I didn't quite do a good job of it though.)
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13:12:16 <boily> good what-with-repetitive-animals-and-domain-names morning!
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14:47:42 <boily> telnet ssd.jpl.nasa.gov 6775
14:48:07 <boily> ↑ what is this thing I don't even holy fungot it's wonderful it has stuff and things and wooooooooah...
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15:06:02 <Vorpal> boily, nice, how did you find that?
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15:11:52 <boily> Vorpal: a comment under http://blog.xkcd.com/2013/09/30/asteroid-4942-munroe/
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16:24:55 <nortti> http://www.objectiveministries.org/zounds/review-minecraft.html wat
16:30:16 <elliott> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=objective+ministries
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16:34:33 <fizzie> Huh. I carried the about-to-be-retired webserver laptop (there's e.g. fungot on it) to the living room in preparation of starting to move things off of it, and now it no longer boots.
16:35:31 <Taneb> So fungot is TRAPPED IN A PORTABLE CAGE
16:35:35 <Tefaj> Perhaps you should have carried it in preparation of something less drastic.
16:35:39 <nortti> does it hang in boot process or is it just dead
16:36:33 <fizzie> nortti: It's just dead. I suspect its the made-in-China "Replacement AC Adapter", which (IIRC) had a LED on it that no longer lights up when I plug it in the wall.
16:41:34 <boily> fizzie: but, but... what are we gonna do without fungot?
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16:43:29 <fizzie> boily: It is a problem, to be sure. Most of the things on that box were on an external USB drive, which I can get at easily, but fungot lived in /home and therefore is on the 2.5" (IDE) HD. And I have no idea where my 2.5"-to-3.5" IDE adapter could be. (I think I had one.)
16:46:32 <boily> can you open the USB drive and splice in the IDE HD?
16:47:23 <fizzie> The USB drive is actually an USB enclosure and a standard 3.5" drive. The problem is that the 2.5" interface has a different connector.
16:47:44 <fizzie> Maybe I should go hunt for the adapter.
16:48:09 <fizzie> (Also one thing on the external HD is a Cyrus IMAP two-point-something-outdated database, which I was hoping to extract by reading it over IMAP, because that wouldn't involve installing a Cyrus somewhere.)
16:48:26 <boily> drives and their all unique adapters... we need a new standard to unify all drives together!
16:49:36 <boily> (lemmings are cute critters)
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17:07:03 <fizzie> The adapter was: the absolute bottommost thing in the last place I had left to look at.
17:08:29 <fizzie> I kept finding all sorts of tangentially related things (two other 2.5" HDs, a 3.5" floppy drive along with Slackware 8.1 RC1 installation floppies, a Fast-SCSI terminator, an absolutely ridiculous pile of IDE and floppy ribbon cables) but not it.
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17:31:46 <kmc> "Although much of the federal workforce will go without pay, checks will keep coming to the 533 current members of Congress. Why? The 27th Amendment prevents any Congress from changing its own pay."
17:40:17 <fizzie> Well, of course: the 2.5" HD does not work in the USB enclosure with the adapter.
17:40:24 <fizzie> (Doesn't spin up or anything.)
17:41:02 <nortti> fizzie: do you have any backups?
17:42:37 <fizzie> Irregular ones, of this system. It's been sort of a project to get rid of it.
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17:43:02 <fizzie> Anyway, I got it at least spin up; turns out I had an off-by-one error in the 2.5" IDE connector.
17:43:12 <fizzie> (It doesn't have the pin-20 "key" it's supposed to have.)
17:43:59 <boily> fungot is still salvageable!
17:45:06 <fizzie> I am reading data off of it at the moment.
17:45:17 <fizzie> (Then I need to actually do something with it.)
17:55:33 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:56:10 <fizzie> ./cfunge: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.14' not found (required by ./cfunge)
18:02:00 <fizzie> Well, yes, it's cfunge.
18:02:12 <fizzie> Everyone (potentially) has the code.
18:02:30 <fizzie> (I guess there's the chroot patch, but I do have that too.)
18:03:20 <boily> lettuce prey for fungot's survival!
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18:07:13 <elliott> fizzie: perfect time to switch to CCBI2!
18:08:41 <boily> github is once again unicorning...
18:10:53 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:10:57 <HackEgo> olist (922): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
18:11:01 -!- fungot has joined.
18:11:36 <fungot> kmc: it means that those shifts will intrinsically be slower than readjust my brain for such rubbish, of course, i don't
18:12:07 <shachaf> fungot: who are you calling rubbish
18:12:07 <fungot> shachaf: i'm working on that
18:12:16 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel on your new host?
18:12:17 <fungot> fizzie: it's not about how he use his own scheme implementation leveraging the work of a tortured mind making a single last grasp for a semblance of comforting sanity overlaid upon a fundamentally chaotic at ultimately inimical universe.
18:12:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:13:28 <impomatic> "I am the Blue Screen of Death. No one hears your screams."
18:15:14 <fungot> boily: riastradh i'll give it back, and if
18:16:52 <impomatic> Hmmm... the codu logs are still broken :-(
18:17:34 <boily> Gregor: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOGS! :)
18:19:37 <boily> fungot: can I use ~duck, or am I still banned from it?
18:19:52 <boily> you fiendish sleazy bot.
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18:29:15 <Tefaj> Blue scream of death
18:38:44 <impomatic> "I am the Blue Screen of Death. No one hears your screams." is an error message from BeOS.
18:39:18 <nortti> impomatic: you're running BeOS? what version?
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18:41:09 <impomatic> Nortti: not any more. I'll get it up and running again as soon as I find a copy.
18:41:39 <impomatic> I missed an eBay auction recently. It went for 99p
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18:43:16 <nortti> hmm, I should really set up a dedicated BeOS machine
18:43:30 <nortti> because the thing will simply not boot in emulator
18:43:56 <boily> does the original BeOS boot in virtualbox?
18:45:04 <nortti> yea but it requires more RAM than most of my testbeds have
18:45:15 <boily> impomatic: I just finished downloading alpha 4.
18:45:15 <nortti> maybe I should start upgrading my styff
18:47:01 * impomatic has pre-ordered a Parallella. 16 core board.
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18:56:25 <kmc> http://www.parallella.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/first_parallella_cluster2.jpg I like the "just stick some fans nearby" approach to cooling
18:58:24 <boily> impomatic: use genetic algorithms to evolve the ultimate brainfuck derivative?
18:58:55 <kmc> 1.73 megabrickbrains / second
19:00:44 <impomatic> I'm tempted by the cluster. But I still wouldn't know what to do with it :-)
19:01:11 <FireFly> You could develop and run pargot, a parallel cousin of fungot
19:01:11 <fungot> FireFly: the module system
19:01:30 <FireFly> ...is there such a thing as a parallel -funge?
19:01:47 <boily> fungot: do you get perpendicular?
19:01:48 <fungot> boily: i couldn't evaluate your expression in the second line
19:01:50 <impomatic> I'd probably just use it for entering contests that need a bit of brute force. E.g. Al Zimmermann's programming contests.
19:01:57 <boily> fungot: there are no second line!
19:01:57 <fungot> boily: if i send this patch? ( 1/ 3 1/ 3)) ( 3 4)
19:01:59 <shachaf> fungot: what are you all about
19:01:59 <fungot> shachaf: ( use srfi-1) is fnord formal semantics?)
19:02:11 <shachaf> fungot: learn to parentheses hth
19:02:11 <fungot> shachaf: or two instances of any scheme. :) hehe, doesn't seem like that to assemble... i'm still just barely coming to grips with the task of preparing a meal that acquires a taste beyond the sum of the rest
19:02:38 <shachaf> preparing a meal that acquires a taste beyond the sum of the rest
19:02:38 <fungot> FireFly: i like the algorithm and have it out with different variations were.
19:03:17 <fungot> shachaf: i guess you don't get into specific trouble you'll run into performance issues with sisc, they work on states, using compact bit arrays and copying them will always keep us in second place next to obl
19:06:00 <boily> so compact bit arrays are the key to cooking a Beyond the Sum Meal.
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19:10:36 <FireFly> Sum Meals.. are they related to monad burritos?
19:11:24 <kmc> is a monad burrito like a burrito burrito?
19:11:50 <boily> burrito burrito buffalo buffalo buffalo.
19:11:52 * impomatic is searching for files which seem to have disappeared from the net :-(
19:12:31 <shachaf> kmc: did you know that monads are just free monad monad monad algebras
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19:33:46 <impomatic> Hmmm... http://dronegames.co - receive a (free?) Parrot AR Drone to hack. Suggested hacks - "Detect a face and follow that person"
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19:48:31 <olsner> nice, sending a packet with an unexpected IP crashes qemu with an assertion failure
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20:17:31 <boily> olsner: what qualifies as an unexpected IP?
20:19:03 <boily> I am indeed surprised.
20:19:56 <boily> Addendum [SCP-294ad]: Researcher produced request consisting solely of the phrase "surprise me". Device produced a opaque cup containing normal water, later determined to have been heated to approximately 200 degrees Celsius. Upon receiving vibration from transport, the contents of the cup turned into steam, violently spraying boiling water in a 2-meter radius.
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20:44:51 <kmc> use super::super::longhands;
20:48:01 <olsner> fungot: is it better to use simple gotos for clearer logic or complicate while type structures?
20:48:01 <fungot> olsner: fnord sent me their cd suite with all their laziness) but couldn't get what i mean
20:52:23 <boily> olsner: cleaner logic prevails.
20:52:36 <boily> (althought a nice monad is best, imho.)
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21:04:21 <shachaf> kmc: what's a good naming scheme for lenses onto one or more values, zero or one values, zero or more values
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21:41:46 <shachaf> "unbounded adversary" is the name of kmc's new band
21:43:39 <kmc> need to book flights to korea
21:44:24 <shachaf> which passenger equivalence class will you be in
21:44:55 <kmc> the worst one :'(
21:48:41 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
21:49:04 <shachaf> Should we add you to the `olist so you get notified?
21:49:14 <oerjan> ais523: i think it was already done, also we customarily include the number these days.
21:49:33 <zzo38> Yes you should include the number
21:49:33 <ais523> shachaf: no, because I typically check OOTS before I check #esoteric
21:49:49 <shachaf> But what if you're in #esoteric and it beeps your name?
21:49:53 <shachaf> Then you'd know straight away.
21:49:55 <fizzie> Perhaps those list scripts should check the number and only ping the nicks if the number is greater than the previous number?
21:50:18 <ais523> shachaf: yeah but statistically, considering the proportion of the time I'm online, if anyone else olists I've probably already seen it
21:50:32 <ais523> fizzie: and the nicks in question were online at the time?
21:50:39 <zzo38> fizzie: No I don't think that will be necessary, and it might not work correctly anyways due to various reasons.
21:50:50 <fizzie> (What's one extra filesystem commit for every Xlist between friends?)
21:51:50 <shachaf> being on the same list doesn't mean that you're friends
21:52:00 <ais523> fizzie: just make it only ping people who are online at the time, and check logs to see who it's already pinged
21:54:43 <zzo38> I do not think that is necessary; it complicates things that don't need to be.
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21:57:51 <Bike> https://twitter.com/neilfws/status/385161327422885888/photo/1 forgot this site was us gov't >_>
22:08:28 <oerjan> i agree with zzo38. unless you want to implement it properly. and on this channel "online" doesn't mean "actually present and will see this before pinging out".
22:12:40 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
22:14:25 <oerjan> apparently | will show up as | in tables under some conditions, which the Pointy article works with
22:17:07 <oerjan> olsner: i was checking of those were actually the same character
22:17:41 <olsner> oerjan: looks like they were, hthth
22:22:49 * oerjan suddenly wonders if he can say eighth
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22:31:56 <oerjan> Tefaj: gnineve derorrim doog
22:33:30 <oerjan> did i misspell it or did someone delete it :(
22:33:45 <Bike> `run echo programming | tac | ?
22:33:55 <Bike> `run echo programming | tac - | ?
22:34:05 <Bike> `run echo programming | tac
22:34:39 <Bike> `run echo programming | reev
22:34:41 <HackEgo> bash: reev: command not found
22:34:41 <Bike> `run echo programming | rev
22:34:44 <oerjan> and also to understand the difference between stdio and argv
22:34:51 <Bike> yes i got that much
22:35:00 <Bike> lousy unix philosophy grumble grumble
22:35:27 <Bike> programmirg. sensible.
22:35:31 <HackEgo> Þór, Grimmargorpurinn hefur sloppið! Ragnarök eru nálæg!
22:35:54 <oerjan> wtf did it get entered like that. maybe someone actually misspelled it first.
22:36:14 <oerjan> (i know i entered it. minus some later correction.)
22:36:18 <Bike> that's presumably a joke based on gnimmargorp looking like old germanic, rather than a replacement
22:36:19 <FireFly> `run echo programming | rev | xargs ?
22:37:39 <oerjan> also the spelling is icelandic, not genuine old norse.
22:37:45 <FireFly> Grimmargorpurinn sounds like an Icelandic volcano
22:38:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10185
22:39:01 <oerjan> (e.g. old norse didn't use ö but ǫ)
22:39:04 <olsner> <olsner> I'm going to forget all about grimmargorpurinn all too soon <-- prophetic words
22:39:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20742
22:40:20 <oerjan> i suspect i may have introduced the error.
22:40:49 <oerjan> `pastelogs g.immargorp
22:41:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14333
22:42:45 <oerjan> yep, only one thing to do
22:43:24 <oerjan> `run sed 's/rimmar/nimmar/' wisdom/grimmargorp >wisdom/gnimmargorp
22:43:38 <HackEgo> Þór, Gnimmargorpurinn hefur sloppið! Ragnarök eru nálæg!
22:44:51 <olsner> gnimmargorp doesn't sound as good :(
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22:45:22 <oerjan> olsner: thus why i didn't delete the old one
22:46:25 <olsner> maybe gnimmargorp ought just be "common misspelling of the Grimmargorp"
22:48:20 <oerjan> did you know that google translate doesn't know how to translate "misspelling" into icelandic.
22:51:26 <olsner> I did not! that's a fun fact
22:59:53 <fizzie> Ogrimmar is some kind of a WoW thing.
23:01:39 <oerjan> `run echo '"Gnimmargorp" er algeng stafsetningarvilla af "grimmargorp"' >wisdom/gnimmargorp
23:01:51 <oerjan> `run echo '"Gnimmargorp" er algeng stafsetningarvilla af "grimmargorp".' >wisdom/gnimmargorp
23:02:36 <olsner> stafsetningarvilla? why does the mis end up on the other side of spelling?
23:03:37 <oerjan> also i'm not sure about the preposition "af".
23:04:10 <oerjan> i found an instance of that use, but norwegian would use "for" in a similar position.
23:05:22 <olsner> swedish would also use "av" I think
23:06:28 <myname> how the hell does rustc decide what match blocks are non-exhaustive and what not?
23:06:44 <oerjan> anyway, there are few hits in either case but more for "af" than for "fyrir", although maybe i've misunderstood what icelandic uses for "for".
23:08:35 <olsner> hmm, "felstavning av" ... feels like stavfel doesn't take an object, it's more like "a spelling mistake" perhaps
23:09:17 <oerjan> yes, in that case norwegian would also use "av"
23:20:59 <oerjan> i want to create wisdom/nutirrof but it's too meta even for me.
23:21:45 <oerjan> i suggest meta-lateral thinking to understand that
23:22:29 <elliott> oerjan: can we have a new featured language.
23:22:46 <oerjan> i'm sure that's entirely possible.
23:23:00 <olsner> meta-lateral sounds like complicated thinking... I'm not even good at normal lateral thinking
23:23:33 <oerjan> olsner: it's related to grimmargorp.
23:23:40 <oerjan> hm maybe it should be rutirrof.
23:23:42 <ais523> elliott: if you pick one I'll write a blurb for it
23:24:50 <elliott> ais523: how about brainfuck? might as well get it out the way with
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23:26:07 <ais523> how does an april fool's joke last until October anyway?
23:26:53 <oerjan> hey it's just half a year
23:27:25 <ais523> hmm, I'm going to have to word this so that the b isn't at the start of a sentence
23:27:42 -!- augur has joined.
23:28:47 <fungot> oerjan: if you come across as a fascist would do that
23:29:01 <oerjan> fascists were big on hugs?
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23:33:16 <ais523> elliott: there, I've updated the main page blurb
23:34:08 <shachaf> fungot: i like hugs, am i a fascist
23:34:08 <fungot> shachaf: i'm installing 1.5 now
23:34:19 <shachaf> uh oh, fungot 1.5. that sounds bad.
23:34:19 <fungot> shachaf: thanks for the help!
23:34:39 <shachaf> fungot: i ain't helping you
23:34:40 <fungot> shachaf: that is, a socket may be simultaneously used in multiple places. that kind of coin... well, i just wrote
23:35:24 <elliott> ais523: nice capitalisation trick :)
23:35:47 <ais523> elliott: yeah, I had to contort a bit to pull that off, but we can't have controversial capitalization on the main page
23:37:56 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: no, it doesn't not even have type classes (nor typeclasses)
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23:51:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hugs descends from the first haskell implementation to have constructor type classes (i.e. not just kind * types)
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00:05:36 <kmc> 't is common to respond to an e-mail rendered unreadable by character mangling (referred to as "betűszemét", meaning "garbage lettering") with the phrase "Árvíztűrő tükörfúrógép", a nonsense phrase (literally "Flood-resistant mirror-drilling machine") containing all accented characters used in Hungarian.'
00:08:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
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00:08:52 <ais523> kmc: that phrase isn't nonsensical, it describes an entirely well-defined object
00:08:59 <ais523> if not a particularly useful one
00:09:43 <ais523> hmm… "Árvíztűrő" is way easier to pronounce than "tükörfúrógép"
00:11:34 <ais523> Hungarian words can be hard to pronounce because all words inflect the same way
00:11:46 <ais523> regardless of how hard the added letters for the inflection might be to pronounce in context
00:17:01 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:19:21 * Sgeo facepalms at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYMeOLpk5_8
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00:29:34 <Taneb> Watched the Avengers followed by Monty Python and the Holy Grail
00:31:23 <zzo38> Have you ever played flipperless pinball games?
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00:38:10 <oerjan> shall we have a betting pool of how soon before Taneb's sleep schedule unravels
00:38:46 <Taneb> oerjan, I just found out that while I was watching these movies, a fire occured in my flat complex thing!
00:39:05 <Taneb> Apparently they had to evacuate and some people have to be rehoused
00:39:06 <zzo38> Have you played other pinball games?
00:39:50 <oerjan> have you played ball-less pinball games
00:40:01 <oerjan> or pin-less, for that matter.
00:40:18 <kmc> Taneb: .... wowo
00:40:22 <kmc> Taneb: glad you are not on fire
00:40:44 <Taneb> It was a different block, I think
00:41:09 <kmc> (here I assume that if you were on fire, you'd deal with that problem before getting on IRC)
00:43:05 <Taneb> (if I was on fire I'd log in to IRC and say something like "help im on fire what do")
00:43:32 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't think you can; you can't make a pinball game if there is no ball, or no pin for the ball to bounce against (well, some have no pins but there are still walls to bounce against)
00:43:42 <oerjan> huh apparently flipperless pinball was a thing before the flippers were invented
00:44:02 <zzo38> Yes in a movie theatre once I have played a pinball game with no pins; it was the one to win gum balls
00:44:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes and sometimes it is still being played, especially on the computer, I think, flipperless pinball games are being made
00:45:31 <zzo38> A few people have tried to make flipperless pinball games just by removing the flippers from a flippered game, although that has bad results; best is to design the table layout to work with flipperless.
00:45:45 <ais523> I think the flippers are an improvement
00:46:31 <zzo38> ais523: W ell, kind of, yes you can make a lot of flippered pinball games, which is an improvement, although pinball games can be made that work just fine without any flippers.
00:46:32 <Taneb> Weren't flippers added to get around gambling laws?
00:46:59 <zzo38> Taneb: I read somewhere that playing more than one ball for a single coin was added to get around gambling laws, but not flippers.
00:47:55 <Sgeo> Flippers makes more sense as a workaround for gambling laws
00:48:02 <Sgeo> Which doesn't mean it's true ofc
00:48:03 <kmc> what's the law?
00:48:19 <zzo38> Even just today I play a flipperless pinball game that actually does have one flipper, although the player has no direct control over it; it flips whenever one of two bumpers are hit (these bumpers are close enough that there is a reasonable chance that the flipper will hit the ball if it does that)
00:49:10 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:49:28 <Taneb> The powers that be are on to zzo
00:49:51 <ais523> apparently peer is online right now, under a different nick
00:50:02 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:50:07 <ais523> presumably they're fed up of people asking them to stop resetting their connection
00:50:23 <zzo38> Oops there was some connection error; if you replied then please reply again.
00:51:02 <ais523> we were discussing the connection error
00:52:36 <Taneb> Anyone know how to install .fon fonts in Ubuntu?
00:53:27 <zzo38> Many modern flipperless games I have played on computer omit the tilt sensor, although some flippered games do too (such as Pokemon Pinball). (I don't think tilt sensor is suitable for the computer game anyways; you have to push a key to nudge and the computer simulation doesn't have to move the table far enough to result a tilt anyways, therefore it shouldn't be needed.)
00:54:17 <kmc> the peer is coming from inside the house
00:55:01 <zzo38> Most computer pinball games just tilt if you nudge too often. Alternatives I have seen are in Spade Cadet, it tilts if you hold down the nudge key for too long instead, and in Knickknack it won't let you nudge more often than once a second.
00:55:25 <zzo38> (The nudge key will simply do nothing if you push it too often.)
00:56:10 <zzo38> I have heard from someone once of a pinball table that tilts if you hold down the flipper button for too long, too.
00:56:54 <ais523> zzo38: I've played one that tilts if you press the flipper buttons too hard
00:57:00 <ais523> presumably people kept doing that and breaking it
00:57:22 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I suppose that would work.
00:59:38 <zzo38> My opinion is a computer pinball game needs no tilt penalty; a physical pinball game does need a tilt penalty to prevent lifting or breaking it.
01:00:55 <Bike> i'd be impressed if a computer pinball game had a real tilt sensor
01:01:20 <zzo38> Bike: Maybe such thing can be made using Wii remotes
01:01:51 <ais523> or the accelerometer in a smartphone
01:01:55 <Bike> wii pinball, with virtual flippers.
01:02:07 <ais523> actually, smartphones would be pretty suited to tilt-sensitive pinball
01:02:35 <Bike> even i have a phone game that uses the orientation sensor.
01:02:51 <zzo38> Bike: Well you could use two of the buttons as flippers and one as plunger (and one for pause); or make a flipperless game so only the plunger button is needed.
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01:03:08 <Bike> no, no, you have two remotes, each of which is a flipper.
01:03:37 <zzo38> Bike: Then how should you nudge? It would make nudging confusing wouldn't it?
01:03:49 <Bike> you gotta mooooove your body
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01:05:34 <zzo38> In Pokemon Pinball bonus stages, once the timer expires the flippers will stop working; however you can still nudge. In the Meowth stage, Meowth stops moving and stops throwing money on the board, although any remaining money can still be hit with the ball, so nudging the table to make the ball hit them would help, however the flippers don't work so if the money is too high you probably cannot hit it anymore.
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01:10:18 <zzo38> My computer makes some unusual noise do you know how to fix it?
01:10:36 <kmc> depends on the noise
01:11:40 <zzo38> It seem to make the noise while simulating the physics of the pinball game; when it is paused, it doesn't make such noise though. It does make noise in other times too though sometimes
01:11:56 <zzo38> I also heard something knocking in the computer.
01:13:56 <zzo38> Also when listing directory and other stuff; perhaps it is when doing a lot of computations at once, it is making a noise.
01:15:02 <zzo38> Also like I said before, sometimes the picture seems to have an imperfect clock rate.
01:15:26 <zzo38> Does this have something to do with it too?
01:16:36 <Bike> does anything in a computer even make noise besides the fan? the disks i guess if you're a pleb
01:17:50 <kmc> sometimes the capacitors start to hum / whine
01:17:54 <zzo38> Yes the disks make noise but I think it is a different noise
01:17:55 <kmc> also sometimes they explode
01:18:05 <zzo38> kmc: Why do the capacitors start to hum / whine?
01:18:07 <kmc> coils too. power supplies definitely make noise
01:18:09 <kmc> zzo38: i don't know
01:18:12 <shachaf> sometimes the cpu makes noise
01:18:25 <zzo38> Why does the CPU make noise?
01:18:29 <kmc> if you're pushing reasonable amps at 60 Hz then odds are high that something will mechanically vibrate at 60 Hz
01:19:06 <zzo38> It didn't make these noises yesterday (although the picture had imperfect clock rate yesterday)
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01:21:03 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetostriction oh, that's cool.
01:23:11 <zzo38> Perhaps it is the CPU making noise but I don't know how it would do that. Or at least it has something to do with the CPU; I don't know if it is the CPU doing this or not.
01:23:38 <zzo38> (The CPU is Intel Celeron 2.00GHz)
01:27:19 <oerjan> <shachaf> kmc: what's a good naming scheme for lenses onto one or more values, zero or one values, zero or more values <-- isn't the second just Prism
01:27:31 <shachaf> no, Prism is more than that
01:27:40 <shachaf> it lets you construct!!!!! that's half the point
01:28:06 <shachaf> these things are just Lens+ Lens? Lens*
01:29:14 <Bike> name them after types of giraffe, then.
01:32:50 <Bike> ok that was pretty good.
01:33:26 <ais523> oh wow, I've accidentally designed a call-by-name function interface in C
01:33:29 <ais523> this is unexpectedly awesome
01:33:38 <ais523> and yeah, that was an awesome pun
01:33:44 <zzo38> The noise does seem to be when the CPU is doing a lot of things.
01:34:00 <ais523> oh, metasepia isn't here
01:34:02 <zzo38> ais523: What call-by-name function interface in C did you design?
01:34:10 <oerjan> it goes where boily goes
01:34:15 <ais523> zzo38: the library calls into a plugin to ask it to update someting
01:34:22 <ais523> then the plugin has to call back into the library to ask what to update
01:34:39 <ais523> this is how you implement a call-by-name interface in a call-by-value language
01:34:43 <ais523> only I did it by mistake
01:36:17 <Bike> archive.org has backed up the united states government's web presence. it's the beginning of the end, folks.
01:37:25 <ais523> it's only the real beginning of the end in like two or three weaks
01:37:31 <ais523> when the US defaults on its loans
01:37:47 <Bike> no this is much more real than that.
01:37:50 <ais523> I'm not sure whether or not that would completely destroy the world economy, and it's /really worrying/ that I'm not sure
01:38:19 <Bike> why would defaulting on loans destroy the world economy
01:39:06 <ais523> Bike: giving a loan to someone creates money out of thin air; the person who loaned it out still has it because the debt is worth value, and the person it was loaned to /also/ has it because they can spend it
01:39:14 <ais523> if the loan is repaid, everything works out fine
01:39:42 <ais523> if it isn't, though, some of the created money simply vanishes, and it can take a long time for the financial systems to work out where it vanished from
01:39:52 <ais523> because of all the recursive loaning that's going on
01:40:03 <ais523> thus, defaulting causes some amount of uncertainty as to the existence of money
01:40:20 <ais523> a really really large default causes a really really large amount of money to become very uncertain
01:40:35 <ais523> and it's hard to have a functioning economy in a situation where you can't work out how much anyone actually owns
01:40:42 <zzo38> I looked and found someone says the power supply is making noise because the CPU is using too much power.
01:40:49 <Fiora> what would it mean for the US to default on its loans given that the US also defines/controls the value of the dollar?
01:41:17 <elliott> does anyone actually believe the US will pay off its debts as it stands?
01:41:41 <Fiora> well, the US does pay of its debts, it just issues new ones, right?
01:41:43 <ais523> Fiora: well they could pay them off by just artificially creating that many dollars, but that would cause the value of all the existing dollars to reduce
01:41:48 <Bike> if triply imaginary money destroyed the economy i'd be living in a cave rn
01:42:02 <ais523> in proportion to the ratio between the amount that already existed, and the amount printed
01:42:32 <ais523> it's quite possible that if they just didn't pay, the value of the dollar would drop by a similar amount for a similar reason (because not paying, and paying with freshly minted money, is pretty much equivalent)
01:43:29 <ais523> the US's national debt is of a similar value to its entire GDP, meaning that I guess the value of the dollar would approximately halve
01:44:10 <ais523> and that'd have some pretty crazy knock-on effects in the world economy too
01:44:14 <oerjan> guess who is making estimates out of thin air
01:44:14 <Fiora> GDP isn't assets though, is it...?
01:44:34 <Fiora> or money supply, I guess...
01:45:13 <ais523> I'm not massively good at enonomics
01:45:18 <ais523> I live with an economist, but it's only microeconomics
01:45:30 <ais523> that's why I have to make rough guesses
01:45:34 <ais523> rather than actually knowing
01:45:37 <Bike> "Debt held by the public as a percentage of GDP rose from 34.7% GDP in 2000 to 40.5% in 2008 and 67.7% in 2011."
01:46:00 <Bike> It's 108% if you include states and smaller municipalities' debts. which doesn't make sense here of course.
01:46:01 <ais523> well, it's more maths than economics
01:46:20 <ais523> Bike: it's also above 100% if you include intergovernmental loans, according to Wikipedia
01:46:27 <ais523> which possibly are relevant here
01:47:05 <zzo38> I moved the computer slightly and the noise is now reduced, although I am not sure if I can still hear it or not.
01:47:12 <ais523> err, intragovernmental
01:47:12 <Bike> "History - See also: United States debt-ceiling crisis of 2011 and United States debt-ceiling crisis of 2013" good article
01:48:53 <ais523> also apparently many of the US loans have interest rates below inflation
01:48:57 <ais523> so they become smaller over time
01:49:55 <Bike> ah right, this is where the Rogoff and Reinhart study was
01:51:05 <Fiora> ais523: yeah, that's the whole reason behind quantitative easing
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01:51:12 <Fiora> like if I remember right
01:51:21 <Fiora> the government regulates inflation by adjusting the rates on government loans
01:51:32 <Fiora> but recently like a few years back those rates reached... 0%
01:51:36 <Fiora> and inflation was still too low
01:51:52 <Fiora> so they had the fed start buying its own loans to try to get inflation to go up
01:52:00 <Bike> looking forward to the extension of interest rates into the imaginary axis.
01:52:08 <Fiora> which is kind of the only thing they can do since you can't really go below zero?
01:54:30 <zzo38> The noise is still there, although it is reduced a bit from before.
01:55:05 <Bike> actually, continuously compounded interest is an exponential function, isn't it. with an imaginary rate would you spiral outwards
01:56:42 <oerjan> exponential with imaginary rate ~= sine or cosine
01:57:42 <oerjan> e^(a+ib) = e^a * (cos b + i sin b)
01:57:51 <ais523> oerjan: well it's more rotatey than a sine or cosine
01:57:56 <ais523> it has both real and imaginary components
01:58:29 <oerjan> in any case, the imaginary component causes cyclic behavior, not growth.
02:00:25 <ais523> actually the complex exponential function is one of the few four-dimensional objects that it'd be really useful to be able to visualise
02:01:01 <Bike> maybe i'm just actually this dumb, but shouldn't it grow as the real part grows.
02:01:09 <Sgeo> Can too little inflation be bad?
02:01:58 <oerjan> Bike: yes, but that's caused by the real component, not the imaginary one
02:02:08 <ais523> Sgeo: negative inflation is normally considered to be a total disaster
02:02:14 <ais523> although too much positive inflation is also bad
02:02:36 <Sgeo> negative inflation = depression?
02:03:35 <oerjan> when inflation is negative, money gets worth more over time, so no one has an incentive to use more than absolutely necessary
02:03:57 <oerjan> which hurts investment and productivity
02:04:43 <ais523> this is one of the main criticisms against bitcoin
02:04:52 <Sgeo> Why not literally print money during deflation? Doesn't printing money increase inflation?
02:04:57 <ais523> that it seems designed for it to be a bad idea for anyone to ever spend it
02:05:05 <ais523> Sgeo: yeah, that's one possible way to fix deflation
02:05:06 <Sgeo> ais523: like the pizza?
02:05:22 <ais523> probably quite a common one in practice, too
02:05:36 <ais523> but the thing about economics is, changing anything has all sorts of knock-on effects
02:05:46 <ais523> this is why I'm so against the Euro (whilst mostly being a fan of the EU)
02:06:04 <ais523> pegging countries' currencies to each other means that there are fewer dials you can adjust to try to fix a broken economy
02:06:05 <Bike> because you're worried about nonspecific effects from any change?
02:06:17 <Bike> ok good i was going to stare at you.
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02:14:47 <Sgeo> Are traditional turtle graphics able to find where they are?
02:14:59 <ais523> Sgeo: not as far as I know
02:15:15 <Sgeo> Ok, so I can't rant about Racket's turtle graphics sucking
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02:31:54 <Bike> isn't that part of the point? so you have to plan everything in advance?
02:42:25 <Sgeo> There's a point?
02:43:14 <oerjan> yeah it's under the turtle
02:43:15 <Bike> of course, it's for education.
02:43:18 <Sgeo> Hmm, Racket's doesn't have varying pen sizes
02:54:05 <Sgeo> woah this code is old
02:54:06 <Sgeo> (module value-turtles mzscheme
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03:03:18 <ais523> hey, C correctness question: is it legal to compare NULL to a pointer to deallocated data?
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03:13:01 <oerjan> ais523: no http://c-faq.com/malloc/ptrafterfree.html
03:13:06 <zzo38> I tried reducing the DRAM speed to see if that helps somehow; at least the video isn't wrong again (except in the BIOS configuration menu; it is still wrong during that)
03:13:26 <zzo38> The noise seems to be gone too
03:13:54 <ais523> I guess I'll fix this later
03:14:02 <ais523> it's unlikely to be a problem in any sane implementation
03:14:23 <zzo38> The listed temperature in the BIOS menu was below 60 C (which is what the setting for the shutdown temperature is)
03:20:30 <ais523> actualy, I'll fix it via converting all copies of that pointer to a pointer to static memory just before the free
03:20:36 <ais523> apart from the copy I'm actually freeing
03:21:08 <ais523> oh, here's a stupid bit of API design for oyu
03:21:15 <ais523> libpng requires the use of setjmp to avoid errors
03:21:37 <ais523> it also requires you to free its structures via a function which takes a pointer to a pointer to its structures as an argument
03:22:01 <ais523> e.g. if I want to free a png_ptr, I call something along the lines of png_free(&png_ptr), although the actual function has more arguments
03:22:35 <ais523> now, if my png_ptr is stack allocated, it has to be volatile because of the setjmp (I want to be able to free it after an error)
03:22:53 <ais523> however, the free function doesn't take a png_struct * volatile *
03:23:00 <ais523> so I have to copy it to another variable just to be able to free it
03:25:17 <zzo38> Oops now the bad video and noises are starting again
03:25:24 <Bike> zzo38, anyone else fond of 6502: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/textfiles/the-jason-scott-documentary-three-pack/posts/615823
03:27:10 <Sgeo> "and there are system architectures for which such exceptions would be quite natural.)"
03:27:16 <Sgeo> That I'm curious about
03:28:58 <zzo38> O, Kickstarter is available in Canada now.
03:33:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: Is that the "Future Systems" that does that?
03:34:07 <Sgeo> No idea what architectures that make sense for
03:47:05 <zzo38> libpng is full of other stupid stuff too, I think; I use LodePNG
03:47:38 <zzo38> LodePNG is much better
03:53:50 <zzo38> I found out that the heating vent in this room wasn't completely covered; I covered it now, in case that helps with the computer
03:56:44 <zzo38> I know that in Verilog the name of a module call can be useful for debugging (and potentially for other purposes too), so in HWPL it is optional (most commands can have a LABEL clause to do this).
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04:07:35 <zzo38> Things I haven't added yet but probably should includes primitive CMOS/NMOS/PMOS transistors (which Verilog includes), and some analog stuff. Is the macros good enough current, you think so?
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04:54:58 <HackEgo> shikhin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:04:43 <zzo38> shikhin: Who are you today?
05:05:53 <zzo38> shachaf: I am Aaron Black today, I suppose...
05:06:56 <lambdabot> They've turned into giant Swiss leaderhosen-clad dancing yodelers. Talk about unpredictable!
05:07:31 * oerjan eyes zzo38 and shachaf suspiciously
05:38:04 <zzo38> Do you think LodePNG is better?
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05:42:33 <zzo38> Is better than libpng.
05:49:26 <ais523> no, Ubuntu, it is not a problem that valgrind segfaulted
05:49:31 <ais523> it doe that if the program it's running segfaults
05:49:46 <ais523> which is quite likely, because valgrind is the program I run for the purpose of diagnosing segfaults
06:05:00 <shikhin> ais523: That's the third welcome I've been given, here. :-)
06:05:10 <shikhin> zzo38: Hmm, probably shikhin.
06:05:21 <ais523> according to the RFCs for IRC, the hyphen is required
06:05:29 <ais523> or well, it's in the only example given of one
06:05:44 <Bike> examples are not normative!! probably
06:05:46 <ais523> but I keep flattening the smileys out of habit
06:06:06 <shikhin> (especially on a monospace font)
06:06:38 <zzo38> I have heard of stuff that Ubuntu does a bunch of stupid things by default, although you can change these things.
06:07:01 <ais523> the one about netiquette
06:07:03 <ais523> I linked it a while back
06:07:09 <ais523> can't remember the number
06:07:22 <ais523> also, a bug in my program just filled the screen with smiley faes
06:07:31 <ais523> then double-freed when I tried to exit it
06:07:39 <shachaf> Hmm, the RFC says too use them sparingly.
06:07:41 <ais523> valgrinding it now to catch the double free
06:07:53 <ais523> in case it gives a hint as to where the smiley faces are coming from
06:07:55 <shachaf> silly ais523. free pointers, not doubles.
06:08:12 <ais523> (that isn't "character 0x01 in code page 437", which is the most likely cause that that particular character was rendered)
06:09:22 <shachaf> That sounds like a strange bug.
06:10:26 <ais523> it's like the code's accidentally copying from the font rather than where it should be copying from
06:10:40 <shachaf> "Wait overnight to send emotional responses to messages. If you have really strong feelings about a subject, indicate it via FLAME ON/OFF enclosures."
06:11:14 <ais523> yup, that's exactly what it was doing
06:12:27 <shikhin> shachaf: That's from the RFC?
06:13:52 <ais523> oh wow, now this is pretty
06:15:02 <ais523> hmm... there are two issues with this:
06:15:17 <ais523> a) SDL2 doesn't seem to be rendering to texture, it's just rendering directly to the screen
06:15:27 <ais523> b) I probably have the color channels in the wrong order
06:15:47 <ais523> before, the files I tested it with used only white and transparent
06:16:06 <ais523> which conveniently, are 0xffffffff and 0x00000000 in the 32bpp RGBA format I'm using
06:17:00 <ais523> this is meant to be opaque and dark gray, but instead it's semitransparent and red
06:17:17 <ais523> which leads me to conclude that the alpha channel is being interpreted as red
06:17:28 <ais523> perhaps I have the endianness backwards
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06:30:45 <fizzie> A "qemu -m" just used up 16 gigs of RAM and 9 gigs of swap.
06:30:52 <fizzie> Er, I mean, "qemu -m 512".
06:32:50 <ais523> yeah, endianness was backwards
06:46:46 <kmc> all those stupid C1 control characters and they didn't bother to standardize FLAME ON or FLAME OFF :<
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08:09:41 <Taneb> Anyone know a way I can get an alert when someone comes online on Facebook?
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10:04:09 <Jafet> https://twitter.com/big_ben_clock #kmc
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17:44:20 <Bike> `welcome CorMeumLucidum
17:44:22 <HackEgo> CorMeumLucidum: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:44:58 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: hoping for a MEANWHILE IN R/BITCOIN update today
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18:08:36 <Bike> yup, already see somebody saying that a 25% drop in value is normal and it'll bounce back
18:08:43 <zzo38> I looked inside the computer and I see no damaged capacitors. I vacuumed it inside in case it helps, but I don't know if it does. I still have problems with bad video, and something inside the computer is clicking.
18:09:00 <elliott> Bike: well, a 25% drop in value doesn't sound that abnormal for bitcoin.
18:09:12 <Bike> that's why it's funny, yeah
18:09:15 <mnoqy> healthy and natural
18:10:10 <Bike> anyway the important thing here is, it's going to be like a billion times harder for me to get #drugz w/o accidentally getting kmc arrested now
18:10:17 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1nlb08/ross_ulbricht_was_sloppy_and_outted_himself/ccjmvf4?context=1 this guy was not the smartest illegal drugs site operator ever
18:11:19 <Bike> i like that «a/k/a "Dread Pirate Roberts"» is in official documents.
18:11:54 <Bike> wow, he hired the hitman to kill someone who'd done a SQL injection? that's some cyberpunk shit
18:12:19 <mnoqy> i like the pictures in this thing
18:13:12 <elliott> Bike: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1nl5ct/silk_road_seized_by_the_feds/ccjn1kr this is so weird
18:13:51 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong with thsi computer?
18:16:29 <Bike> it's gonna be great when we see criminal incompetence all laid out like this since it's the future and all
18:16:48 <Bike> so uh, did the guy actually get murdered
18:17:50 <mnoqy> zzo38: clicking suggests one of the moving parts is brushing up against something. that'd mean fans or spinning discs, i guess?
18:18:40 <mnoqy> bad video could be because of a bunch of things. is the monitor okay? is the video card okay? are the cables okay? are you okay?
18:19:00 <elliott> Bike: well it doesn't seem like the person who allegedly murdered them would have any reason to do it for the price given, assuming that comment is accurate
18:19:05 <elliott> unless they just like killing people.
18:19:25 <Bike> elliott: maybe they do just like killing people! i dont' "know" the "criminal" "mindset"
18:19:37 <Bike> especially the bitcriminal
18:20:01 <mnoqy> a cyberpunk reality masterminded by children
18:20:36 <Bike> maybe this will all turn out to be a synydyne ARG.
18:21:40 <Bike> http://media.tumblr.com/c907dd90564b1d759d746bd6a8c559fe/tumblr_inline_mu0qrxfYYQ1qdjjgt.png on a happier note, the government shutdown is going well
18:21:55 <zzo38> mnoqy: I think I cleaned the fans though; maybe a wire got caught inside though, but I think I moved those out of the way
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18:25:17 <Bike> good news, bitcoin is back up to $120 after dropping from $140 to $110 in thirty minutes
18:25:57 <Bike> your investments are safe. unless they were in drugs.
18:26:12 <olsner> hmm, are the wars on terror and drugs halted then?
18:26:15 <zzo38> Now I found this "HWMonitor" program. Other than the temperature it also lists voltages and fan speeds. I notice that the -12V seems to be wrong; it is at -4 instead of -12 as it should be.
18:26:35 <olsner> that would be p. great for peace on earth etc
18:26:46 <mnoqy> Bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmVQ-tpggyY
18:27:02 <Bike> alas, i don't see people makin stupid $250 sales to try to inflate the price
18:27:18 <zzo38> It lists the "THRM" temperature at 44 C
18:27:34 <Bike> mnoqy: good stuff in the relateds here
18:27:36 <zzo38> "TMPIN2" is at 45 C
18:27:56 <zzo38> Actally it is down to 44 now and sometimes even 43 but these are the max values
18:28:13 <zzo38> "TMPIN1" doesn't seem to work; it says 0 C.
18:28:36 <zzo38> The "FANIN0" is at 2860 RPM. Is this proper?
18:29:35 <zzo38> The hard drive temperature is at 37 C. Is this proper?
18:30:13 <zzo38> (I have two hard drives in my computer though; perhaps one doesn't have a temperature sensor?)
18:32:11 <zzo38> Perhaps the power supply is bad because the -12 voltage is at -4.
18:32:32 <zzo38> But I already replaced it once.
18:32:39 * boily stands far, far away from zzo38's machine
18:32:55 * boily yells “EVERYTHING IS FINE AND PROPER, AT LEAST FROM HERE!”
18:34:56 <zzo38> I also notice a "Fans PWM" section although all three values are 0%.
18:40:08 <zzo38> Maybe it would help to underclock the CPU, although I looked in the BIOS menu and the minimum setting is 100 and that is what it is set to. (The maximum setting is 132. I don't know what units these are in.)
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18:41:40 <zzo38> Although I also noticed for several years now that the RTC seems to be slow; it is always behind the correct date/time.
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18:48:19 <zzo38> Do you expect putting ice anywhere near the computer to help?
18:59:03 <zzo38> How could anything get inside the disks?
18:59:14 <zzo38> It doesn't click all the time; only sometimes.
19:03:06 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_of_death#Hard_disk_drives ?
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19:21:46 <kmc> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/02/us-crime-silkroad-raid-idUSBRE9910TR20131002
19:23:32 <Bike> von mises. of course.
19:23:39 <kmc> "During the raid, authorities seized $3.6 million worth of bitcoin"
19:24:24 <Bike> "You know how there's been reports of X dollars amount of Bitcoins being seized from Silk Road? You can know about 25% of that dollar value"
19:25:04 <ais523> one thing about bitcoin is that if everyone collectively refuses to respect a transaction, then they can
19:25:28 <ais523> like, they can just pretend it didn't happen
19:25:31 <Bike> looks like it's back up to $125/BTC.
19:25:31 <kmc> yeah is the FBI going to open an account at MtGox and transfer it out with Dwolla or some shit?
19:26:11 <ais523> kmc: well, they /could/; as long as MtGox could find a buyer for the bitcoins the FBI were selling, and they probably could, then it'd work just fine
19:26:13 <Bike> they need it 'cos of the shutdown hurr hurr
19:27:34 <kmc> FBI gotta get paid
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19:39:34 <Fiora> kmc: they could use coinbase I guess?
19:40:38 <Bike> we should email them with suggestions
19:48:32 <boily> Fiora: coinbase looks very interesting. do you use it?
19:48:50 <Fiora> Um, I used it like once to dump some of the bitcoins I had left
19:48:55 <Fiora> it was really simple and easy
19:49:40 <Fiora> I was going to use mtgox but then I realized they were requiring some crazy fancy identity verification and stuff and I really didn't want to hassle with that
19:49:51 <Fiora> (I should probably be glad I didn't use them now -_-)
19:50:47 <boily> same reason I didn't mtgox: my identity is my identity. okay with prooving that I am boily, but they are a little bit... overboard with all that.
19:51:43 <boily> oh well. all I need now are some shiny bitcoins.
19:52:57 <Bike> i hear there's now an opening for a classic, lucrative market
19:54:38 <olsner> ewww, lwip uses the current byte-order of the architecture and byteswap functions
19:57:07 <boily> that thing is still used?
19:57:53 <olsner> well, I use it since some time yesterday... not sure if anyone else does
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20:12:21 <Bike> "Moral of the SilkRoad bust: Don't ask PHP questions on Stack Overflow"
20:12:44 <kmc> ... is that how he got busted?
20:13:15 <shachaf> http://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/UlbrichtCriminalComplaint.pdf
20:13:24 <Bike> «in section 43 he post a question on stack overflow, asking "How can I connect to a Tor hidden service using curl in PHP?", using an account made under his name and then a minute later changed it to "frosty"»
20:13:41 <nooodl> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15445285/how-can-i-connect-to-a-tor-hidden-service-using-curl-in-php
20:14:07 <Fiora> there's the whole worry about parallel construction, but that sounds pretty, wow XD
20:15:08 <kmc> which page number shachaf
20:15:57 <Bike> from another answer to frosty, "Congratulations; you helped create the Silk Road :-)"
20:16:00 <Bike> internet is weird
20:16:04 <kmc> oh page 30
20:16:30 <Bike> i mean, not by the asker of course, he's not /that/ dumb
20:16:32 <shachaf> some of the rest of the pdf is also relevant
20:22:14 <boily> reddit comments on the thing are as redditty as ever.
20:32:08 <FireFly> "Based on my training and experience, I know that criminals seeking to hide their identity online will often use pseudonymous usernames to conceal their identity."
20:33:29 <ion> Shit, we’re busted.
20:33:46 <FireFly> Gregor: darn, I guess you're safe
20:33:53 <kmc> i'm not very pseudonymous either
20:34:06 <FireFly> ...when you're not using nicknames like 'Friendship', that is.
20:34:20 <FireFly> Or.. RocketSquirrel, was it?
20:35:03 <ion> Based on my training and experience, I know that I will prefix all my sentences with “Based on my training and experience, I know that”.
20:35:06 <FireFly> Eh, or did I mix things up now.. probably
20:35:19 <FireFly> ion: my thoughts exactly when reading that pdf
20:35:27 <olsner> "criminals seeking to hide their identity online will often [hide their identity online]."
20:35:50 <Gregor> FireFly: RocketJSquirrel.
20:40:10 <ais523> "clog << clog(2.718281828) << endl;"
20:41:14 <ais523> C++ can be awesome sometimes
20:41:30 <ais523> (the first clog is from <iostream>, the second from <cmath>)
20:41:56 <kmc> left shift clog by clog of e
20:42:31 <ais523> it's more a case of "how do you manage to give two identifiers in the standard library the same name"
20:44:46 <kmc> well they were introduced by C++ and C99 respectively, I think
20:44:53 <kmc> so maybe the committees don't talk to each other as much as they should ;P
20:45:23 <ais523> apparently it's not a problem unless the one in <cmath> is a macro
20:45:37 <ais523> because in C, the first clog doesn't exist, and in C++, it can distinguish
20:46:03 <kmc> makes sense
20:46:17 <ais523> (because of overloading)
20:46:40 <kmc> just to be safe they should give the first clog an operator() which calls the other one
20:47:01 <olsner> if clog is a function macro it still works, I think? not sure if it portably works of course
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20:48:52 <ais523> olsner: not if someone puts spaces between it and the parens, I tihnk
20:48:56 <ais523> not sure on that though
20:49:07 <ais523> perhaps that's irrelevant
20:49:33 <ais523> it'd definitely matter if you produced the second clog as the result of expanding another macro, with some order of sequencing the #defines
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21:30:21 <tswett> So I tried to implement the Reidemeister moves in my new language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tuesday
21:30:27 <tswett> Turns out that my new language is pretty hard to work with.
21:32:42 <tswett> Certain things would be made significantly easier if you could specify that one rule takes priority over another.
21:35:58 <tswett> Like lambda calculus. You could say that the rule (replace (var X) with (var Y) in (var X)): (var Y); takes precedence over the rule (replace (var X) with (var Y) in (var Z): (var Z);.
21:36:35 <tswett> Whoops, an unmatched parenthesis. Let me mitigate the damage by closing it now.
21:37:00 <boily> fungot: could you unbalance the parenthesises?
21:37:01 <fungot> boily: i know lots of lisp stuff. people _love_ it, they're popped and assigned to local variables on the stack then yes, i'm excluding those that use psyntax's module system,
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21:38:18 <tswett> Gotta go. Great conversation, everyone.
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21:39:36 <boily> @tell tswett htsetth
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22:00:38 <coppro> oerjan: I have to sing finnish music this term
22:02:37 <fizzie> `run words --finnish 10 # some lyrics
22:02:40 <HackEgo> syytäväsi hapunokkaipa ikutiivissasi reistansa eettävässäännisammasi nostaan oleviä räisinnolleen koulultaan tuttamiassa
22:04:02 <coppro> how do you pronounce kaikki maat te riemuitkaatte?
22:04:24 <coppro> (apparently the song is a "psalmin" which I assume is a type of fish)
22:05:04 <lambdabot> *** "psalm" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
22:05:04 <lambdabot> n 1: one of the 150 lyrical poems and prayers that comprise the
22:05:06 <lambdabot> Book of Psalms in the Old Testament; said to have been
22:05:10 <lambdabot> 2: any sacred song used to praise the deity
22:05:12 <lambdabot> v 1: sing or celebrate in psalms; "He psalms the works of God"
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22:05:38 <coppro> fizzie: 'twas a joke ;)
22:06:01 <fizzie> As for pronunciation, I'm bad at explainin them but generally you can just map graphemes to phonemes in a straight-forward way.
22:06:10 <HackEgo> ctorylove elogi hcbf bf-pda cat hunter shakespeare ziim sqirrely alaguf
22:06:25 <coppro> fizzie: how do you pronounce the e? is it "tee" or "tay"?
22:06:55 <fizzie> coppro: http://translate.google.com/#fi/en/kaikki%20maat%20te%20riemuitkaatte and click on the speaker icon -- it's very close.
22:07:08 <coppro> that sounds like effort :P
22:07:15 <boily> `run words --french 20 # let's see if they are real French words...
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22:07:19 <HackEgo> baony cirtungt intes regref yinerissamp hidedio fustants rugiri fraggre doplees promîm pavées dederla expurrida bons lnutz cuis nefîicy andosacrétos holog
22:07:27 <fizzie> And it's the IPA /e/, or close enough.
22:07:51 <boily> mais c'est n'importe quoi!
22:09:54 <boily> coppro: je vois bien, mais n'empêche que 2/20, c'est pas fort.
22:10:10 <boily> `run words --french 20 # let's see if they are REAL French words again...
22:10:13 <HackEgo> pari pers nar anguait mécommie lous gyt profebruguâ croit rentiput luffice lau provendentem cinquière hoquemen infit ractan les érrent uilepin
22:10:41 <boily> coppro: à peine mieux.
22:14:15 <boily> je m'insurge! je réclame un vrai dictionnaire! oui à la Domination Mondiale par le Français!
22:15:01 <Bike> verilog why do you not have an expressional cond. come on. come on
22:16:54 <oerjan> boily: bons and les were really words, right?
22:18:24 <boily> oerjan: I confirm «pavées», «bons», «pari», «croit» and «les» are real, common modern French words.
22:19:18 <boily> (paved FEM. PLUR., good PLUR., bet, (he) believes, the PLUR.)
22:21:03 <oerjan> il croit qu'ils sont bons mots
22:22:18 <boily> sorry if I sound pedantic, but: «il croit que ce sont de bons mots.»
22:23:06 <boily> at least you conjugate your verbs better than most francophones.
22:24:17 <oerjan> also it's really annoying to use google translate for french when my browser refuses to accept ´ as a working dead key
22:24:59 <oerjan> well i was going to look up érrent
22:25:27 <boily> that one comes very close to «errent» (they wander).
22:26:05 <oerjan> on an errand, no doubt
22:26:07 <coppro> boily: j'ai compté «cuis», mais pas «pavées»
22:26:22 <boily> coppro: je ne connais pas le cuis. allons google translater la chose!
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22:27:42 <oerjan> boily cuis des poulets
22:27:55 * oerjan didn't try to check that conjugation
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22:28:20 <coppro> boily: ce sont «pari» et «pavées»?
22:29:04 <boily> oerjan: nearly. third person, so «cuit».
22:29:42 <boily> coppro: a bet, and paved, as in paved roads: «routes pavées».
22:31:01 <boily> bon, avec tout ça, j'ai faim. temps d'aller manger du poisson mort.
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22:32:49 <coppro> il á parti avant que j'aie eu l'opportunité de se dire «Est-çe que tu va cuire le poisson?»
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23:17:09 <HackEgo> 796) <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon <kmc> it came in a cardboard box <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can <kmc> it was amazing
23:17:26 <HackEgo> 49) <Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see?
23:17:36 <HackEgo> 736) <zzo38> A lot of things happened; not only me, but also you
23:18:14 <Bike> is zzo38 run by syndyne
23:19:33 <HackEgo> 1049) <kmc> i think delivery sushi is one of those habits that can rapidly consume all of one's money <kmc> like cocaine
23:19:41 <HackEgo> 531) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
23:19:54 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
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23:22:56 <HackEgo> 582) <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.imgur.com/dosYw.png <Phantom_Hoover> WELCOME TO FUCKING STEELROMANCED
23:23:08 <oerjan> shachaf: what the hell was wrong with that quote, are you trying to make a squeaky clean image on the internet or something
23:23:09 <HackEgo> 266) <Gregor> Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards.
23:23:23 <shachaf> It's just pointless and stupid.
23:23:47 <Bike> my quotes are better than that quote, and my quotes are the bottom of the barrel. there you have it
23:24:05 <shachaf> It doesn't meet whatever quality standards the quote database ought to have.
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23:25:12 <Taneb> I've just seen someone run past me in Sailor Moon cosplay (I think) with a Pikachu backpack]
23:26:03 <Bike> the witching hour
23:27:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, she (or possibly he) was leaving university accommodation
23:28:15 <Fiora> maybe she was at a party or larp type thing with friends?
23:29:07 <Fiora> well okay my college had midnight larp type things but that was on friday or saturday.
23:29:59 <Bike> pretty sure we were warned about midnight larping by jack chick.
23:30:28 <Fiora> it was actually people running around the main lecture complex with duct-tape daggers
23:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> well that just sounds like a recipe for unpleasant misunderstandings
23:32:14 <Bike> pleasant knifeterstandings
23:32:21 <kmc> http://www.mit.edu/~assassin/
23:32:50 <kmc> we played Capture the Flag using the steam tunnels, does that count as LARP
23:33:06 <Bike> depends. did you pretend to have fur?
23:33:21 <Fiora> (I don't think that thing was very larpy. I knew someone who did actual larp though, she had a lot of fun with it)
23:36:01 <oerjan> the intersection is probably non-empty, but they are entirely orthogonal concepts.
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23:36:21 -!- oerjan has kicked Bike yes..
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23:38:44 <Taneb> I can't bear bears
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23:58:38 <^v> also, protip: /cs kick #esoteric <name>
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00:31:43 <kmc> oerjan, regarding that see the first graf of http://www.mit.edu/~mitsfs/related-groups.html
00:32:37 <kmc> "So, if you're from somewhere else and were looking for all the weirdos, here are the places you might have thought would all be the same as each other and us"
00:32:46 <kmc> that's a beautiful sentence
00:32:57 <Bike> i don't understand @_@
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00:34:01 <elliott> "Welcome to the website of the MIT Anime Club. We are a non-profit MIT student organization dedicated to increasing the awareness of anime, or Japanese animation, in the MIT community."
00:34:11 <elliott> "have you accepted anime into your life as your saviour yet?"
00:35:22 <kmc> \rainbow{awareness}
00:35:22 <oerjan> Bike: see, no furries at all!
00:35:40 <Bike> larping and anime are totally distinct oerjan
00:36:05 <kmc> pls join my pagan sci-fi anime larp
00:36:14 <kmc> slash linux user group
00:37:00 <oerjan> i sense that trondheim's gamers club may have been unusually light on the paganism.
00:37:18 <kmc> shame, isn't scandinavia one of the best places for paganism
00:37:33 <oerjan> well there's good access to nature
00:37:39 <kmc> good access to vikings
00:38:22 <kmc> "I spent the winter on the verge of a total breakdown while living in Norway / I felt the darkness of the black metal bands"
00:38:39 <kmc> "But being such fawn of a man I didn't burn down any old churches / Just slept way too much"
00:40:42 <oerjan> the winter does tend to do that to weak people
00:46:15 <elliott> "If you're high school students looking to start a club, you may find this Parents' guide to anime helpful when arguing that there are anime which can be shown on campus without inundating the school administration with calls from irate parents ranting about the school showing violent animated Japanese pornography."
00:46:41 <kmc> talk to your parents about anime before someone else does
00:47:30 <oerjan> darn i want to `addquote that but it doesn't work without all of elliott's quote included
00:48:06 <Fiora> talk to your children about anime.
00:48:06 * pikhq_ wonders at notions of anime = porn
00:48:10 <Bike> "In an interesting work-around, Levison complied the next day by turning over the private SSL keys as an 11 page printout in 4-point type"
00:51:38 <Bike> and you can see a copy of the printout, awesome
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02:29:31 <Sgeo_> .plt files are encoded with base64 after being gzipped
02:30:19 <oerjan> so you can email them duh
02:34:59 <Koen_> I WAS BORN TO GET WILD
02:37:45 <shachaf> base64 them first and then gzip
02:39:39 <Sgeo_> The file format specifies that the file contains some procedures to run (to provide various data)
02:39:49 <Sgeo_> I have no idea if those procedures are run in a sandbox or not
02:40:30 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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03:09:17 <Bike> i'm glad they put in that warning that this will fuck my computer.
03:13:48 <Bike> i don't have webgl
03:13:51 <Sgeo_> "But the real treat is hidden a little deeper. If you type "bambi"—the original game's original code-name—on the start screen, it'll shoot you back into retro 1995 mode which replicates the original game, complete with fake desktop, and fake social media applications with fake installers. It's actually pretty rad."
03:16:28 <Sgeo_> I don't think multiplayer lets you choose who to play with :(
03:16:31 <kmc> does it have the weezer video too
03:16:49 <kmc> no just a still of it :/
03:17:57 <Sgeo_> This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kemivUKb4f4
03:26:34 <Bike> tk is counterculture
03:27:37 <Sgeo_> Is lexical scoping culture?
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05:23:47 <shachaf> ski: People in ##typetheory were asking questions about linear logic that I bet you'd know the answers to.
05:27:37 <adu> hi esoteric ppl
05:30:50 <kmc> `welcome adu
05:30:53 <HackEgo> adu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:31:13 <adu> hi HackEgo
05:31:19 <kmc> greets to a fellow three character nick person
05:31:33 <adu> I'm more than that
05:31:39 <adu> I'm a bio person
05:31:45 <kmc> are you a bicycle?
05:31:53 <adu> as opposed to an auto-electro-person
05:32:15 <adu> I <3 people
05:33:12 <adu> my favorite language is Funge-98
05:33:29 <adu> if that means anything, then you know I'm not a bot
05:33:36 <adu> shachaf: AMEN
05:33:56 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
05:42:44 <Sgeo_> Where did I see the name adu before?
05:43:07 <Sgeo_> And I _just_ checked too
05:44:46 <adu> especially here
05:46:02 <HackEgo> 2009-12-05.txt:15:50:51: <adu> after, meaning smaller?
05:46:19 <oerjan> HackEgo: stop silently timing out thx
05:46:45 <oerjan> i did think you looked familiar
05:48:08 <adu> hi oerjan HackEgo
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06:35:39 <fizzie> fungot: What's your favourite language?
06:35:39 <fungot> fizzie: well i need to make
06:36:16 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, well, remember to write a wiki entry about it when it's done.
06:36:17 <fungot> fizzie: there are no pencils within reach that you might want to add variables and the like? it seems that thing is
06:36:37 <fungot> shachaf: anything interesting happened here the last weeks? i'm insulted! :p) then performed operations on it,
06:38:43 <fungot> shachaf: okay. parachute with the fluffy parachutey bits right? what does that tell you about it shortly after first coming in here, otherwise.
06:39:22 <FireFly> Whu, are parachutes fluffy?
06:39:30 <FireFly> fungot: I think you're drunk
06:39:30 <fungot> FireFly: i used it a bit, too.
06:41:16 <shachaf> if you have a lot of drugz and then you finish all the good ones do you only have the dregz left??
06:41:51 <fungot> shachaf: error in cdar: expected type number, got ' output-port'. try again.
06:41:56 <ski> shachaf : mhm ..
06:43:01 <kmc> what did fungot say?
06:43:01 <fungot> kmc: my implementation isn't supposed to sound rude.
06:43:25 <shachaf> 23:39 <FireFly> fungot: I think you're drunk
06:43:25 <shachaf> 23:39 <fungot> FireFly: i used it a bit, too.
06:43:25 <fungot> shachaf: s/ indenting/ fnord/ 205/ collects") and " fnord",
06:43:25 <fungot> shachaf: eew. you don't say. is it documented??
06:43:41 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> what did fungot say? <fungot> kmc: my implementation isn't supposed to sound rude.
06:43:41 <fungot> kmc: some esolang? :) what implementation do you prefer
06:43:48 <HackEgo> 1114) <kmc> what did fungot say? <fungot> kmc: my implementation isn't supposed to sound rude.
06:43:50 <kmc> shachaf: I think in context it would have to be alcohol
06:44:10 <shachaf> it sounds like "it" is another kind of drugz
06:44:16 <kmc> maybe implying that FireFly was also drunk
06:45:03 <shachaf> when you said a sentence with "FireFly" in it i expected an immediate response
06:45:44 <fungot> shachaf: is wright's softscheme available somewhere? :) imagine if the imagination of the syntax for them sane? i don't udnerstand why it's called that, yes
06:47:00 <fungot> FireFly: coded that already
06:47:58 <shachaf> fungot: have you coded funggo38
06:47:58 <fungot> shachaf: i'm just not getting this. something happening somewhere?
06:48:28 <kmc> zhongguo38
06:49:26 <fungot> shachaf: you need to solve the assignment without too much problem, while someone else could help in the absence of software patents in europe as well and is the closing bracket
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06:52:51 <olsner> fungot: who's the closing bracket?
06:52:52 <fungot> olsner: i'm running into an apparent conflict between ajax.request and magic's handling of json. it
07:00:19 <fizzie> fungot: I think the Xen you're in nowadays is affecting your "brain".
07:00:19 <fungot> fizzie: and if there is any somewhat popular os without those. but for further refinement, i'm crippled if i can't find
07:05:11 <kmc> you virtualized fungot?
07:05:11 <fungot> kmc: it looks perfectly human and everything. obviously it had something to do
07:06:33 <kmc> BBC: Exercise 'can be as good as pills'
07:06:39 <kmc> oh, they mean for your health
07:15:01 <fizzie> It was already on a Linux-VServer fakey-server (because it ran on a laptop with a non-PAE Pentium M and Xen dropped support for that in 2008 or so), I just rejiggled some hardware to make that a Xen guest instead.
07:17:12 <fizzie> (Also Debian dropped Linux-VServer starting from wheezy, and I had bad experiences with OpenVZ when I tried it out earlier.)
07:17:53 <kmc> bochs or gtfo
07:17:59 <fizzie> (Apparently OpenVZ is also gone, since LXC is the new hotness when it comes to "containers-style" stuff.)
07:18:03 <kmc> no wait, dosbox
07:19:28 <olsner> (if you want containers you should probably use one of the solaris-derivatives and zones)
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07:20:14 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to run in, say, ZBefunge in Frotz on DOSBox? (You'd have to port yourself to Befunge-93 first, mind you.)
07:20:14 <fungot> fizzie: ye gads my connection is extremely slow....) fnord, offset fnord ( with no evidence) that the existing oss suck :)
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07:21:36 -!- kmc has set topic: fnord, offset fnord (with no evidence) | PDF while supplies last: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | this space intentionally left right.
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08:50:40 <fungot> (http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)S
08:50:46 <fizzie> ^def source ul (https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98)S
08:50:57 <fizzie> (I don't see why I should have to host that sort of things myself.)
09:02:33 <fizzie> (TIL: fungot is 58.2% Perl, 13.6% Python and 28.2% F#.)
09:02:33 <fungot> fizzie: but just entering one would be: fnord .ijke:2,s
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13:03:53 <boily> good strange-things-happen-with-the-topic morning!
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14:34:46 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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16:11:23 <JWinslow23> So, I'm stuck on ideas for esolangs. Can you help?
16:11:39 <JWinslow23> I'm the creator of Drive-In Window, Pancake Stack, and Ecstatic.
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16:13:01 <Taneb> The mystery of the midnight Moon hasn't been solved yet
16:13:41 <Taneb> It means I saw a Sailor Moon cosplayer at half past midnight last night
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16:24:02 <JWinslow23> OK, I gotta go. Only got an hour and a half for lunch.
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17:35:20 <boily> `relcome Uguubee111116
17:35:26 <HackEgo> Uguubee111116: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:35:53 <boily> Taneb: were you at a convention?
17:38:11 <Taneb> I was entering my accommodation complex
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18:13:50 <impomatic> I'm going to this in a couple of weeks http://www.nationalcraftanddesign.org.uk/exhibitions/Next%20Main%20Gallery%20Exhibition
18:14:01 <impomatic> "Revolution in the Bedroom, War in the Playground: Video Gaming 1979-1989"
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18:19:42 <boily> retrogaming is the way of the future!
18:21:19 <fizzie> fungot: Have you ever been a "revolution in the bedroom", if you know what I mean?
18:21:20 <fungot> fizzie: i'm _also_ saying that you can't make an impact on static reasoning that we do not need to be
18:22:13 <boily> I'll have to try static reasoning next time I'm with my SO.
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20:54:09 <fizzie> Is there a (probably non-D) VCS with a command line tool called "cthdrl" already?
20:55:22 <fizzie> There does not seem to be. A shame.
21:03:09 <boily> is that related to LoL?
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21:06:53 <JWinslow23> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.
21:08:19 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:08:28 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:08:33 <Bike> !bf_txtgen Hello
21:08:38 <EgoBot> 61 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>. [362]
21:08:50 <Bike> you beat egobot, good job
21:09:29 <myname> EgoBot seems to print something else
21:09:46 <myname> you would have at least 4 chars less without that
21:09:52 <Bike> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>.
21:10:07 <Bike> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.
21:10:37 <Bike> because periods suck
21:10:39 <myname> the offest thing is >< of egobot
21:11:01 <Bike> bf_txtgen is very heuristic i guess
21:11:21 <JWinslow23> I made a language called Ecstatic. The program to echo input to output is "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".
21:11:22 <myname> it could at least filter obvious nops
21:12:05 <JWinslow23> It converts BF commands to a string of !s. That BF program was ",."
21:12:30 <JWinslow23> It also has an esolangs.org wiki page.
21:14:55 <JWinslow23> Yeah. It takes 4,611,686,021,782,831,112 exclamation points to print "Hello". I wonder what a Hello World program would be?
21:15:37 <myname> shouldn't be that hard to find out, just takes a while to calculate
21:18:14 <JWinslow23> I have yet to find out what binary to decimal converter to use. It has to handle at least 334 binary digits!
21:18:21 <Fiora> so the program is like, unary-coded?
21:18:37 <JWinslow23> Yeah, but instead of "0", "!" is used.
21:18:48 <Fiora> like binary program -> number X -> X !s
21:18:53 <myname> JWinslow23: shouldn't matter
21:18:55 <kmc> you should use ! and ¡
21:18:57 <Fiora> gosh, that's some nice exponential code size inflation :P
21:19:01 <Fiora> at least it probably compresses pretty well.
21:19:17 <myname> there are languages which have arbitrary large integers
21:19:34 <myname> kmc: that'd be much shorter, indeed
21:19:36 <JWinslow23> If only there was a possible way to represent these programs in an actual form.
21:20:09 <Bike> perhaps you could "compress" the exclamation points, representing the number of exclamation points in some more compact fashion
21:20:14 <myname> JWinslow23: did you write an interpreter?
21:20:47 <myname> Bike: what would need at least a second character
21:20:56 <JWinslow23> No. I have only ever programmed in esolangs (and a bit of Batch), and I have no idea how in an esolang (or Batch).
21:21:07 <Fiora> for(uint64_t i = 0; i < 4611686021782831112ULL; i++) putc('!
21:21:09 <kmc> myname: GHC's Integer actually has a max of 2^(64*2^64) or so, what bullshit
21:21:35 <Bike> is that part of GMP
21:21:35 <myname> Fiora: that's a lot of chars
21:21:47 <kmc> not sure Bike
21:21:57 <kmc> gibraltar mounted police
21:22:04 <Fiora> the program is like, really really exclaiming itself. or something. I don't know
21:22:08 <elliott> Fiora: there's something beautiful about writing a program like that, with the stop condition, as if you expect to actually run it to termination
21:22:25 <elliott> kmc: have you seen http://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/most-positive-bignum/?
21:23:04 <JWinslow23> kmc: About using ! and ¡, that is a good idea! that way we won't have the leading 1 and we don't have to convert to decimal!
21:24:26 <JWinslow23> Anyone seen my language, Pancake Stack? Or Drive-in Window?
21:24:33 <kmc> wow 7 tag bits on a 32-bit word o_O
21:25:02 <JWinslow23> I had the idea for Drive-in Window last year, thanks for asking.
21:25:02 <kmc> "But it's a zero that consumes 524 KB, and is not = to 0. " haha
21:25:47 * kmc pours one out for the LISP Machines
21:25:51 <Fiora> elliott: for(int n = 2;;n++){int m = n;while(m != 1) {m = (m%2)?m/2:m*3+1;if(m == n) return 0;}} // how about something like this? XD well okay I guess it'll eventually overflow
21:26:56 <elliott> Fiora: technically it's not actually possible to get an unbounded amount of storage with something that strictly conforms to the C specification, without cheating by using filesystem APIs and stuff ;_;
21:27:37 <Koen_> you may not be aware of it but you're speaking in a REPL!
21:28:05 <elliott> Fiora: because sizeof measures the size of types, including pointers, in bytes, and CHAR_BIT has to be a finite integer, so every type has a finite size, so memory has to be finite (because you can get pointers to it). so you actually can't write a perfect Collatz program or whatever
21:28:20 <Fiora> elliott: couldn't you, like, represent a number as a tree?
21:28:28 <Fiora> and like, it could go as deep as you wanted
21:28:36 <JWinslow23> Does REPL stand for Real Esoteric Programming Language?
21:28:42 <elliott> actually, I think you can't take pointers to register variables or something? and the call stack isn't necessarily finite, but you can only access that in a stack discipline, so it still isn't enough for arbitrary storage
21:28:43 <Fiora> oh I guess you'd run out of pointer space or something ^^;
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21:28:52 <Koen_> I guess it could stand for that
21:28:56 <Fiora> right gosh I remember that conversation now
21:28:58 <Fiora> that was really silly
21:29:02 <elliott> Fiora: yeah... the problem is you have to use pointers, and the standard requires them to be finite
21:29:08 <Bike> Fiora: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/programs.html TCALC is cool.
21:29:31 <Bike> not infinite though.
21:29:46 <elliott> it's just funny that like, an obscure corner kinda thing like sizeof interacts with requiring you to define a constant elsewhere and ends up magically requiring you to have finite storage
21:29:50 <Bike> knuth's literate programming thing
21:30:01 <JWinslow23> I researched. It's read-evaluate-print-loop.
21:30:04 <elliott> Fiora: .w is C code with a lot of TeX around it
21:30:07 <Bike> linuxes sometimes have weave and tangle
21:30:17 <Bike> er, cweave and ctangle.
21:30:39 <elliott> the @<...@> stuff includes the code defined elsewhere with @<...@>=
21:31:03 <JWinslow23> I am working an an esolang called BASE-TWO
21:31:13 <Koen_> pleasedon'tbeabrainfuckderivative
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21:31:29 <Koen_> or you could be oerjan
21:31:39 <olsner> Koen_: brainfuck is base 8, so there is hope
21:32:08 <boily> Koen_: can an esolang be oerjan?
21:32:18 <olsner> elliott: how about using files? IIRC files could be infinite
21:32:42 <kmc> UReal Esoteric Programming Language: Sheer Disaster Download
21:32:48 <olsner> (also how about this being the three thousandth time this being brought up here)
21:32:59 <elliott> olsner: yeah, but then you're relying on the system more than C
21:33:05 <Bike> hm, maybe there really should be a Sheer Disaster to go with Shear Disaster
21:33:34 <Koen_> are talking about C's computability class?
21:33:50 <Bike> whether it can have arbitrarily sized bignums, at least
21:33:58 <olsner> elliott: isn't stdio in the C library and defined in the C standard?
21:34:26 <Bike> http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2013/10/important-customer-security-announcement.html "So, Adobe got owned"
21:34:46 <elliott> I guess standard C might have enough filesystem API to let you do it?
21:34:51 <oerjan> Bike: um you realize "Shear Disaster" is probably a pun on the former, right?
21:34:53 <olsner> Koen_: didn't read the scrollback but it sort of looked like it
21:35:02 <elliott> and ftell() has to be able to fail
21:35:02 <ion> bike: Oh no, not the source code!
21:35:12 <Bike> oerjan: i realize nothing.
21:35:24 <olsner> I think we decided that ftell was allowed to fail
21:35:35 <olsner> *that the standard said that
21:35:59 <olsner> but actually it was a while since I was having this discussion last time
21:36:29 <oerjan> Bike: i think i have realized that. would you like another kick?
21:36:45 <Koen_> JWinslow23: don't leave us hanging there
21:36:58 <oerjan> Bike: always with the negativity.
21:37:18 <olsner> "Yes! I would indeed not like that!"
21:37:19 <Koen_> at the cliffhanger. you were talking about BASE-TWO
21:37:29 <JWinslow23> Oh, yeah. It will be a turning tarpit.
21:37:46 <JWinslow23> The wheel of commands will be +-><[],.
21:37:47 <Koen_> and the sole instructions are 0 and 1?
21:38:01 <Bike> JWinslow23: look at category:brainfuck derivatives or whatever
21:38:03 <Bike> then never do this again.
21:38:16 <JWinslow23> 1 Rotates the wheel in the current direction (initialized to right).
21:38:33 <JWinslow23> 0 Executes the command and reverses direction.
21:38:34 <Koen_> JWinslow23: if you give me five minutes I could probably link two wiki pages describing that exact language
21:38:43 <Koen_> except maybe with other symbols for 0 and 1
21:38:45 <kmc> brainfuck derivatives are boring
21:38:54 <Koen_> ohhhhhhhhh without the reversing direction though
21:39:10 <JWinslow23> I know, kmc, but I gave away my best two ideas!
21:39:52 <Koen_> JWinslow23: if you make a brainfuck derivative you'll have to live with what you did for the rest of your life
21:39:57 <Koen_> trust me you don't want that!
21:40:36 <oerjan> rotating wheel? so a brainfuck derivative turning tarpit?
21:41:00 <olsner> I do like the words "turning tarpit"
21:41:09 <oerjan> JWinslow23: i expect that still exists already.
21:41:28 <oerjan> in fact i'm pretty sure i've seen it, but my memory is still vague.
21:41:50 <Koen_> try something with ' ' for spinning and ! for executing
21:42:29 <myname> what about a language being a total asshole in the way that it uses the exact same commands as brainfuck but changes the chars for them
21:42:43 <myname> i.e. <> for [], + and - swapped
21:42:44 <oerjan> has anyone made a meta-brainfuck derivative that has parameters for simulating 90% of the others yet
21:43:15 <myname> that'd be pretty hard to write, though
21:43:26 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainbrain ?
21:43:36 <Koen_> also elliott was faster than me
21:43:50 <Koen_> oh no wait this one is a joke
21:43:53 <Koen_> there's an actual one
21:44:52 <olsner> hmm, something like a function (or interpreters of functions) [Char] -> [Int3]?
21:45:28 <JWinslow23> You know what? Has anybody made a language based off of checkers?
21:46:02 -!- boily has quit (Quit: most definitely not poulet, I swear.).
21:46:22 <oerjan> even if he's not here, he would be the one to do such a thing.
21:46:40 <Bike> no, he'd use a board game way more obscure than checkers
21:47:08 <JWinslow23> The game is also known as Spellbinder.
21:47:32 <JWinslow23> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21:47:33 <kmc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
21:47:45 <Bike> yeah, Spellbinder, that sounds more zzoic
21:47:47 <Koen_> Blognomic's current dynasty reminds me of spellbinder
21:48:28 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:48:52 <JWinslow23> !bf_txtgen I gotta go. Good to see ya!
21:48:56 <EgoBot> 228 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>--.>++.>--.++++++++.+++++..-------------------.<.>++++++.++++++++.>+.<<.<--.>>..<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.>+++++.-----.<.>++++.<<+..>.>++++++.<<----.>+.-----------------------. [556]
21:49:02 -!- JWinslow23 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:49:13 <myname> what do these numbers mean?
21:49:24 <Koen_> that's a nice piece of code but how can we read it
21:49:42 <Koen_> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>--.>++.>--.++++++++.+++++..-------------------.<.>++++++.++++++++.>+.<<.<--.>>..<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.>+++++.-----.<.>++++.<<+..>.>++++++.<<----.>+.-----------------------. [556]
21:49:54 <oerjan> JWinslow23: hm apart from the pencil-paper part it sounds like something someone in my old gamer's club described once. i suppose you just need pencil and paper to keep track?
21:51:37 <oerjan> myname: length of program and number of steps, perhaps?
21:52:01 <oerjan> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>--.>++.>--.++++++++.+++++..-------------------.<.>++++++.++++++++.>+.<<.<--.>>..<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.>+++++.-----.<.>++++.<<+..>.>++++++.<<----.>+.-----------------------.
21:52:02 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:52:22 <oerjan> EgoBot: why are you not working
21:52:26 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>--.>++.>--.++++++++.+++++..-------------------.<.>++++++.++++++++.>+.<<.<--.>>..<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.>+++++.-----.<.>++++.<<+..>.>++++++.<<----.>+.-----------------------.
21:52:27 <fungot> I gotta go. Good to see ya!.
21:52:51 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:52:52 <fungot> olsner: anyways the compiler just needs to be
21:53:00 <oerjan> Gregor: i think EgoBot is ill
21:53:33 <oerjan> `interp bf '+++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>--.>++.>--.++++++++.+++++..-------------------.<.>++++++.++++++++.>+.<<.<--.>>..<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.>+++++.-----.<.>++++.<<+..>.>++++++.<<----.>+.-----------------------.'
21:53:35 <HackEgo> I gotta go. Good to see ya!
21:54:15 <myname> since bf_textgen is supposed to do that
21:54:29 <oerjan> HackEgo does contain most of EgoBot's esolangs. not sure about the userinterps.
21:54:54 <oerjan> and of course it doesn't have bfjoust, i think.
21:55:07 <oerjan> !bfjoust areyouthere <
21:55:19 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_areyouthere: 0.0
21:56:16 <EgoBot> Score for olsner_hurr: 6.3
21:56:23 <Koen_> ìnter ocaml 'print_newline (let () = print_string "Hello, " in print_string "World!")'
21:56:39 <Koen_> `interp ocaml 'print_newline (let () = print_string "Hello, " in print_string "World!")'
21:56:40 <HackEgo> exec: 4: ibin/ocaml: not found
21:56:53 <Koen_> too good to be true
21:57:04 <oerjan> EgoBot never had that afair
21:57:56 <oerjan> interp is for interpreters transfered from EgoBot to HackEgo
21:59:14 <oerjan> in theory you could install ocaml on HackEgo.
22:01:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:03:56 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:05:29 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> BBC: Exercise 'can be as good as pills' <kmc> oh, they mean for your health
22:05:34 <HackEgo> 1115) <kmc> BBC: Exercise 'can be as good as pills' <kmc> oh, they mean for your health
22:09:00 -!- JWinslow23 has joined.
22:09:31 <JWinslow23> Koen, I gave you 5 minutes. What is the esolangs page called?
22:10:13 <JWinslow23> You said the BASE-TWO page would be ready in 5 minutes. You said that 30 minutes ago!
22:10:27 <Fiora> gosh, such a slave driver
22:10:30 <Koen_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braincrash
22:11:31 <Koen_> I've got another one but apparently he's not in the turning tarpits category
22:11:45 <Koen_> also I seem to recall saying "I could" which hardly qualifies as promising
22:11:59 <Koen_> JWinslow23: a cellular automaton?
22:12:47 <oerjan> elliott: quite ridiculous that none of us noticed http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=AutoMouse&curid=1235&diff=37443&oldid=30864 before :P
22:13:20 <JWinslow23> I think the spaces gone on by the players would do something. Corners could be output commands, for example.
22:13:32 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, I facepalmed -_-
22:14:30 <oerjan> JWinslow23: well you did good
22:15:08 <JWinslow23> Thanks! And the site wasn't dead, the Wayback Machine just can't archive it's own crawl pages, and apparently that's what happened.
22:16:13 <olsner> hmm, doesn't the edited version link to an older version of the archived page?
22:17:32 <oerjan> yes, i just noticed that. trying to find the newest version now.
22:19:58 <JWinslow23> Maybe do something if the games are a win, loss, or tie, and on what square they won?
22:22:49 <oerjan> JWinslow23: as a general rule, we prefer to link to the newest web archive version of pages (excepting versions linking to error pages or domain squatters, of course)
22:23:04 <oerjan> although sometimes that takes a bit of searching to find.
22:23:11 <JWinslow23> Sorry, didn't have time to find that page.
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22:26:51 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
22:29:15 <Bike> «Every day at 2200 GMT, the Ghost of MNG joins the mozilla #developers IRC channel to berate us for going with APNG. http://pastebin.mozilla.org/3190427»
22:29:50 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:30:02 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
22:30:15 <kmc> Bike: haha
22:31:27 <FireFly> I suppose JWinslow23 has been properly `welcome'd?
22:31:41 <FireFly> Or whichever is the current favourite variation of it
22:32:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:32:53 <kmc> i prefer rainwords welcome
22:33:09 <HackEgo> (.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
22:33:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: emoclaw: not found
22:33:47 <FireFly> olsner: those are too dangerous for HackEgo to provide
22:34:02 <olsner> I think there was an emoclaw around the time of the introduction of Grimmargorp
22:34:25 <Bike> kmc: i want to make raincome its own program, but the name makes me want to make a Reich pun and i've got nothing. ;_;
22:35:19 <kmc> what's the reich pun?
22:35:52 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Gonna_Rain it's gon' come down
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22:36:08 <kmc> that's not what the word makes me think of
22:48:53 <oerjan> JWinslow23: i wrote an argument about Pancake Stack being turing complete iff values are unbounded.
22:49:52 <oerjan> JWinslow23: also http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
22:50:23 <JWinslow23> No, I know what that is. I just don't have a good strategy.
22:51:57 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:52:36 <oerjan> Bike: i'm just saying it already exists.
22:52:37 * Lymia sits in elliott's lap :3
22:52:50 <Bike> yes and it has a boring name.
22:53:36 <oerjan> <kmc> that's not what the word makes me think of <-- i'm with kmc
22:53:56 <JWinslow23> Anyone gonna make a new program in Drive-In Window?
22:54:15 <oerjan> JWinslow23: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies ;)
22:54:54 <kmc> hooray i'm not the only one with a dirty mind (?)
22:56:46 <oerjan> kmc: um connecting reich with the nazis makes you dirty now?
22:57:43 <kmc> I was talking about my association with "raincome" not reich...
22:57:46 <Bike> (kmc was thinking of something else *giggles*)
22:57:54 <oerjan> ok. i have another association.
22:57:59 <JWinslow23> !bfjoust maybethisonewillwin? (>+>-)*4>([-]+>[-]->)*11
22:58:02 <EgoBot> Score for JWinslow23_maybethisonewillwin_: 13.8
22:58:21 <oerjan> `run mv bin/{rwel,oz}come
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22:59:45 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:00:01 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:00:19 <JWinslow23> !bf_txtgen An addicting game I play is called Acheivement Unclocked. Play it sometime!
23:00:22 <EgoBot> 730 +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++>+++++++++>+++<<<<-]>>-.<.>>>-.<<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++.>+.+++++.<-.<++++++.>>.<<------.>++++.>>.<<.------.<-.>++++.>>.<<----------------------------.>>.<<<+++.>>+++.<++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++++.>>>.<---.<<------.>>>.<------.<.+++++++++++..>++.-.>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<-.<----.>++.<+.<+++.>----.>++++++++.<.+++++++++.<--.-------------------------------------------------------------------------
23:00:41 <Bike> achievement unlocked got boring fast, thankfully
23:01:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the whole universe is a bizarre spam.
23:01:05 <mnoqy> that's what a spam would say
23:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, yeah, once you run out of the cute 'challenge' ones it's just a dumb slog
23:01:34 -!- JWinslow23 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:02:24 <oerjan> ^ul (SPAM )S((SPAM )(SPAMMITY ))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
23:02:24 <fungot> SPAM SPAMMITY SPAMMITY SPAM SPAMMITY SPAM SPAM SPAMMITY SPAMMITY SPAM SPAM SPAMMITY SPAM SPAMMITY SPAMMITY SPAM SPAMMITY SPAM SPAM SPAMMITY SPAM SPAMMITY SPAMMITY SPAM SPAM SPAMMITY SPAMMITY SPAM SPAMMITY SPAM SPAM SPAMMITY SPAMMITY SPAM SPAM SPAMMITY SPAM SPAMMITY SPAMMITY SPAM SPAM SPAMMITY SPAMMITY SPAM SPAMMITY SPAM SP ...too much output!
23:03:19 <oerjan> the same sequence as always
23:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, i guess it's spam once or twice and then spammity once or twice, over and over
23:03:55 <kmc> > cycle "shit fuck hell damn ass "
23:03:56 <lambdabot> "shit fuck hell damn ass shit fuck hell damn ass shit fuck hell damn ass sh...
23:04:13 <oerjan> kmc: i find your swearing boringly repetitive
23:05:21 <kmc> it's lambdabot's swearing.............
23:05:25 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^ variation!
23:05:28 <fungot> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
23:06:47 <oerjan> well, not so much a variation as a completely different sequence.
23:08:58 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:09:01 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output!
23:10:23 <oerjan> that one only looks right if you have the right setup so the "words" wrap and line up vertically.
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23:11:33 <oerjan> (which happens to work in irssi with 80 columns.)
23:11:48 <oerjan> well, my irssi setup anyway.
23:13:48 <oerjan> (also these are all on the wiki, modulo some tweaking to make them work in irc)
23:18:18 <oerjan> <myname> oh, a . <-- it's actually a newline which fungot converts to a period
23:18:19 <fungot> oerjan: or that... explicitly. you can debug just a portion of the screen, then do the complex probabilities work for qubit states?) work :)
23:18:54 <myname> oerjan: it didn't on the line ending with !
23:18:56 <oerjan> fungot: i don't think underload does quantum computing very efficiently yet.
23:18:56 <fungot> oerjan: which i think looks nicer for some things i dislike with plt code using `case-lambda'? you don't know
23:19:58 <oerjan> myname: no i mean, if you try print a newline from ^bf, fungot prints a period instead.
23:19:59 <fungot> oerjan: now i type fnord, not for me... except when the file is in one of them is the same
23:20:53 <oerjan> and same with some other control characters.
23:20:54 <myname> oerjan: the question is: why did bt_gentext added a newline there
23:21:20 <oerjan> myname: because EgoBot includes the newline in the text fed to commands.
23:22:21 <myname> oerjan: as i said: it didn't on the other line ending with !
23:22:50 <oerjan> i haven't found that line.
23:23:26 <myname> 23:48:51 <JWinslow23> !bf_txtgen I gotta go. Good to see ya!
23:25:29 <oerjan> myname: yes it did, when that was run with fungot. with HackEgo it's invisible, though.
23:25:30 <fungot> oerjan: or it doesn't. the macro section uses define-macro... that's all :(. well, if i can provide the whole language, actually
23:26:03 <myname> strange bot stuff happening here
23:27:06 <oerjan> it's simple: EgoBot's !bf_txtgen includes the newline. fungot's ^bf turns newlines into periods on output. HackEgo strips trailing newlines in its output.
23:27:35 <oerjan> also, HackEgo turns internal newlines into " \ "
23:27:43 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
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23:37:14 <JWinslow23> Anyone gonna suggest anything for my Tic-Tac-Toe language? Program form, maybe?
23:38:22 <myname> JWinslow23: you could make a bf derivate depending on where the winning line is placed ;p
23:38:56 <JWinslow23> So, the outer border could be some of the bf commands and center a nop?
23:39:04 <oerjan> each tic you tac on a new toe
23:40:16 <oerjan> it was an Oerjan Wordplay™
23:40:58 <JWinslow23> You trademarked that? Then I will "strike back!
23:42:01 <oerjan> is "striking like 'pataphysics
23:42:09 <Bike> you put the TM in the quotes. innovative
23:42:12 <Bike> i am also in the quotes.
23:42:46 <oerjan> Bike: no you are not, i ended them.
23:43:00 <JWinslow23> Messed up on that. Anyway, I don't want the program sizes to be really big, unlike all of my others. So, Pancake Stack™.
23:43:02 <oerjan> or wait, we're in the single quotes. let's fix that'
23:43:15 <Bike> no, in "'pataphysics" it's just part of the word
23:43:21 <Bike> NOW we're in single quotes. thanks jackass!!
23:44:11 -!- Lymia has joined.
23:44:11 <Bike> the simpsons family, maybe
23:44:25 <oerjan> ^bf +++++[->++++++++<]>+[.]
23:44:25 <fungot> ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ...
23:46:29 <oerjan> if we're a family IRC, we need to make a more child-friendly version of brainfuck. also this joke is not even new.
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23:48:24 <oerjan> i think i chased them away.
23:48:36 <Bike> mnoqy? you may have!!
23:48:38 <JWinslow23> Instead of shooting yourself in the foot, in COBOL, you put ARM.HAND.FINGER on COLT45HANDGUN.TRIGGER and SQUEEZE COLT45HANDGUN.TRIGGER
23:48:56 <oerjan> where is btiggins when you need him.
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23:49:57 <Bike> wait, have we made more than one cobol guy in here
23:50:26 <Bike> oh, no that was the same guy, right.
23:50:44 <myname> you know what's great about cobol?
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01:19:48 <kmc> wow we have a fizzie, a fizziev, and a fizziew
01:20:31 <kmc> are fizzievp and fizzievpe next
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01:27:49 <oerjan> the next will be the outsourced cnzzie version.
01:41:57 <kmc> fizzie's non-union Canadian equivalent?
01:42:05 <kmc> er, Chinese
01:46:05 <kmc> what about suzzie
01:47:04 <myname> is that the root of all fizzies?
01:47:25 <oerjan> suzzie disappeared back in the early nineties.
01:48:59 <kmc> is there any good alternate history fiction where the soviet union survives into the Internet age
01:56:03 <oerjan> technically the soviet union _did_ survive into the Internet age.
01:56:05 <quintopia> kmc: yes, it's called "modern china"
01:56:22 <quintopia> oerjan: it collapsed within months of eternal september.
01:56:44 <kmc> oerjan: I'm (conveniently) defining "Internet age" as a time when the Internet is a pervasive part of everday life for a substantial fraction of all people
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02:02:14 <oerjan> hm funny today is the anniversary of the end of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_crisis
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02:03:02 <Bike> i always confuse that with the 1991 thing, because i'm dumb
02:03:36 <oerjan> i was briefly wondering if quintopia had done so
02:04:19 <Bike> wow thanks myname??
02:04:20 <oerjan> (although that's not how i found it, it's on wikipedia's On this day...)
02:05:46 <oerjan> also 56 years since sputnik
02:32:00 <Sgeo> Oh, kmc, I wanted to ask your opinion about an article?
02:32:39 <Sgeo> http://www.eighty-twenty.org/index.cgi/tech/scheme/fexprs-remain-inscrutable-20110929.html
02:33:31 <Bike> «Calling Kernel's Fexprs "trivial" doesn't seem quite right to me; perhaps calling them "inscrutable" would be a better fit.» uh?
02:34:35 <Sgeo> point 1 is obvious, point 3 is interesting (saying that what should be an implementation detail of higher-order functions can get exposed)
02:35:12 <Sgeo> Actually, I take back point 1 being obvious. Just its conclusions about compilability
02:35:28 <Bike> point 3 is mentioned in shutt's thesis, he cites some paper that mentioned basically the same problem in the 80s
02:36:58 <Bike> you can dealwith it somewhat with ($define call (c . args) (apply c args)) and then using (call f ...) instead of (f ...)
02:37:08 <Bike> problems with this left as an exercise to the chatter
02:44:49 <myname> i love how you guys make more serious discussions about programming and the theory behind it than every other channel i know
02:44:54 <Bike> does anyone else think it's crazy that "feedback" didn't exist as a concept before like a hundred years ago
02:55:13 <Sgeo> Is Concurrent ML any good? Reason I ask is I think Racket is sucking CML's di.. concurrency mechanisms
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02:56:14 <Bike> how does one suck a concurrency mechanism
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03:06:45 <oerjan> `run WeLcOmE JWinslow23 | rev | rainwords
03:06:48 <HackEgo> ).tEn.lAd.cRi nO CiReToSe# YrT ,aCiReToSe fO DnIk rEhTo eHt rOf( .eGaP_NiAm/iKiW/GrO.SgNaLoSe//:pTtH :iKiW RuO TuO KcEhC ,nOiTaMrOfNi eRoM RoF !tNeMyOlPeD DnA NgIsEd eGaUgNaL GnImMaRgOrP CiReToSe rOf bUh lAnOiTaNrEtNi eHt oT EmOcLeW :32wOlSnIwJ
03:06:54 <JWinslow23> I am still stuck on commands for my Tic-Tac-Toe esolang. Can you help?
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03:07:58 <oerjan> i suspect this esolang will come to nought. just cross it out.
03:08:10 <myname> what should a command be? a move? a board? a full board?
03:09:01 <JWinslow23> I am thinking a move. But for that to work, we would need different commands on each space for each round.
03:09:39 <oerjan> you could do nim sums of tic-tac-toe games.
03:09:58 <HackEgo> EgObOt: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
03:12:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim
03:13:24 <oerjan> the nim sum of two games is where a player can choose which of the games to play at each step.
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03:14:51 <oerjan> ok it works best for games where there is no difference between the two players.
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03:15:09 <oerjan> especially games resembling nim.
03:16:06 <PiRSquared> every impartial game is equivalent to a nim heap of a certain size (Sprague-Grundy thm)
03:16:35 <PiRSquared> but I think the idea of a tic tac toe esolang could be simpler than that
03:17:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:18:08 <myname> how is hackego secured?
03:18:38 <oerjan> JWinslow23: the size of the nim heap is less than the max number of moves remaining, i think.
03:19:07 <Bike> myname: lots of ways.
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03:19:37 <oerjan> myname: it runs in an umlbox sandbox, for a start.
03:19:38 <JWinslow23_> Sorry I was out. Wha were we saying about my idea?
03:21:09 <oerjan> i don't actually have an idea about a tic-tac-toe esolang that would be interesting in the way i think of as interesting (i.e. with the tic-tac-toe tied to the _semantics_ of the esolang, rather than just its encoding or syntax).
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03:22:01 <oerjan> well, which would be able to write interesting programs in that semantics.
03:22:03 <JWinslow23_> Maybe we could do something like COBOL! (No, not that one.)
03:22:46 <Bike> what if you had generalized tic tac toe, and a program was a starting position. then the action of the program is somehow encoded in the perfect play after that position.
03:23:22 <myname> Bike: way too short imho
03:23:51 <oerjan> he did say generalized, i assume that means unbounded board
03:24:05 <Bike> also, the name has to do with cheese and crackers, because pajama sam is my hero.
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03:26:54 <Bike> i don't make the rules, oerjan; i just enforce them. and the rule here is clear.
03:41:31 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:41:55 <kmc> you should find a UML 0-day
03:42:09 <kmc> shit, maybe buy one, gotta be cheap
04:01:10 <myname> i am a bit unfamiliar with the lack of hths here
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06:52:50 <Taneb> `slist happenings including the law against a controlled rage, and a hopeful fork
06:52:54 <HackEgo> slist happenings including the law against a controlled rage, and a hopeful fork: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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08:07:11 <ais523> oh, talking about C corner cases, here's one I found in mingw, and now I don't know whether it's correct or not
08:07:17 <ais523> #define STIRINGIFY(x) #x
08:07:34 <ais523> int main(void) {puts(STRINGIFY(a\r)); return 0;}
08:07:45 <ais523> in mingw, it prints "a" then a carriage return
08:08:14 <ais523> however, backslashes are escaped correctly if they appeared in any context that would be syntactically legal if it weren't a macro argument…
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08:12:05 <ais523> (not that the "past" is needed atm...)
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08:13:29 <HackEgo> 2007-04-29.txt:18:42:07: -!- ihope_ has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09").
08:16:07 -!- ais523 has set topic: fnord, offset fnord (with no evidence) | PDF while supplies last: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | this space intentionally left right.
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10:05:19 <ais523_> gah, Ubuntu's login prompt is really really dangerous from a security point of view
10:05:31 <ais523_> it prefills the username and asks you to type the password
10:06:01 <ais523_> which means you get into the habit of just writing the password without the username first, meaning you can accidentally type it into an echoing field whenever you use a different system
10:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, thus rendering you vulnerable to people-staring-over-your-shoulder attacks
10:26:44 <myname> don't forget vnc and webcams
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10:33:46 <myname> the one of the hackers, obviously
10:40:34 <fizzie> Also: reflections in your eye.
10:40:58 <fizzie> (You just rectangle-select it and say "enhance".)
10:42:16 <Taneb> fizzie, that's why I always squint when typing my password in
10:42:48 <nortti> or, you could use text-mode login that doesm't display anything when writing pass
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10:43:30 <fizzie> I've written my password on the input line of this IRC client due to "I'm sure this computer is xlock'd but I don't want to bother waiting for the screen to wake up before typing in the password". (Though I take care to not press enter before actually seeing the dialog.)
10:43:46 <myname> but what if you accidentally type it as username?
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12:05:24 <Taneb> I'm laughing at my own joke and I can't stop
12:05:59 <Taneb> Someone posted on Facebook, "yay making friends"
12:06:19 <Taneb> I replied, "Making friends is the best.", followed by, "The only bit I find difficult is attaching the arms."
12:07:21 <Koen__> that almost makes me wish I had a facebook account
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12:08:22 <mnoqy> just not funny enough to motivate getting an account
12:09:02 <mnoqy> hm, a joke would have to be pretty dang funny to motivate such a horrible thing wouldn't it
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12:46:50 <Taneb> Is it possible to double a cube with the power of origami?
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12:51:58 <fizzie> Double the cube, double the fun.
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13:44:07 <boily> good sorry-for-the-sudden-metar morning!
13:44:10 <metasepia> CYUL 041300Z 05013KT 30SM BKN080 BKN210 15/08 A3014 RMK AC6CI1 SLP205
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14:19:08 <boily> and from now on, I have glorious blue cherries under my fingers :D
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15:02:25 <EgoBot> 193 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>++>+++++<<<<-]>>++.<-.+++++++++++++++..+++++++++.>>++++.>---.-.<.<++++++++++.+++++++++++++++.+++.+++++.++++++.>.>++.<<--------------.<.>>+.-----------------------. [148]
15:03:01 -!- shikhin__ has changed nick to shikhin.
15:03:57 <nortti> JWinslow23: CB radio day?
15:04:42 <boily> @localtime JWinslow23
15:04:43 <lambdabot> Local time for JWinslow23 is Fri Oct 04 10:04:42 2013
15:04:57 <boily> nortti: can I ask him the The Question?
15:05:16 <boily> JWinslow23: what are your approximate cördinates, and body weigh?
15:05:28 <boily> coördinates, says I.
15:05:36 <boily> (I still need to get used to that shiny keyboard.)
15:05:38 <JWinslow23> No idea, but somewhere in Wisconsin. I weigh about 110 pounds.
15:07:02 <nortti> JWinslow23: you a CB radio user?
15:07:24 <JWinslow23> No, but I always her 10-4 on walkie talkies.
15:08:22 <JWinslow23> I sometimes use walkie-talkies. Not cell phones.
15:08:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
15:08:57 <nortti> no, I mean are you using IRC on a phone
15:09:27 <nortti> school computer has autocorrect? O_o
15:09:43 <HackEgo> bash: Welcome: command not found
15:10:00 <HackEgo> RaDiOuSeRs: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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15:13:09 <JWinslow23> School computer has no autocorrect, I just joked about that.
15:15:13 <JWinslow23> I think I have an idea for my Tic-Tac-Toe language.
15:15:15 <boily> @tell oerjan you stealth quoted me 4 days ago!
15:15:26 <boily> JWinslow23: is it recursive?
15:15:30 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
15:15:35 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
15:15:41 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap
15:15:41 <lambdabot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
15:16:24 <JWinslow23> The center square and winning move are NOPs.
15:31:04 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
15:31:24 <lambdabot> poll-add <name> Adds a new poll, with no candidates
15:31:45 <JWinslow23> @poll-add Should I go on with my Tic Tac Toe idea?
15:31:46 <lambdabot> usage: @poll-add <poll> with "ThisTopic" style names
15:32:02 <lambdabot> Added new poll: "ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea"
15:32:12 <lambdabot> choice-add <poll> <choice> Adds a new choice to the given poll
15:32:29 <JWinslow23> @choice-add ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea Yes
15:32:29 <lambdabot> New candidate "Yes", added to poll "ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea".
15:32:37 <JWinslow23> @choice-add ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea No
15:32:37 <lambdabot> New candidate "No", added to poll "ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea".
15:32:51 <JWinslow23> @choice-add ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea Maybe?
15:32:51 <lambdabot> New candidate "Maybe?", added to poll "ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea".
15:33:01 <lambdabot> vote <poll> <choice> Vote for <choice> in <poll>
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15:34:57 <HackEgo> CoNeHeAd: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:35:29 <conehead> dear lord this is the best welcome to date
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15:43:42 <shikhin> I got three welcomes, and that wasn't one.
15:44:20 <nortti> `run WeLcOmE shikhin | rainwords
15:44:23 <HackEgo> ShIkHiN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
15:44:34 <nortti> `run WeLcOmE shikhin | rainwords | tac
15:44:37 <HackEgo> \ \ ShIkHiN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
15:44:57 <boily> `run WeLcOmE shikhin | tac | rainwords
15:45:00 <HackEgo> \ ShIkHiN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
15:45:24 * boily kicks tac in the... hmm... does a unix command have reproduction organs?
15:46:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/WeLcOmE
15:48:03 <nortti> oh, interesting. still written in py
15:48:23 <nortti> I though someone would've rewritten it in perl by now
15:49:33 <boily> or a python interpreter written in perl.
15:50:20 <nortti> hmm, not gonna do that
15:50:29 <nortti> at least not over hackego
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15:56:59 <boily> yield to the Asinine and Useless side of the Programming. let free your sanity inhibitions!
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15:59:03 <nortti> my sanity inhobitions I've let free when I wrote python program that had no statements, only expressions
15:59:28 <nortti> but writing a perl program over hackego would just be too much of a pita
15:59:49 <nortti> well, unless I figure out how to nicely simulate ed, that is
16:00:09 <boily> I think you know what to do. let the yaks roam and be shaved!
16:01:15 <nortti> it'd just not scale to multi-user
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17:36:02 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
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17:36:45 <fizzie> `run words --swedish --finnish 10 # let's get some of that Swedo-Finnish stuff going
17:36:47 <HackEgo> telsertapa sellistenemanan banansarskeiskys fixeri aukebatalat konaivuamiintron asigniner tempiltimurkes vacks sum
17:37:36 <olsner> does that like run a markov thingy on a mix of swedish and finnish data?
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17:39:09 <fizzie> It's a character... trigram? 4-gram? Something like that, I forget exactly.
17:39:16 <fizzie> And if you specify multiple options, it just interpolates.
17:39:36 <fizzie> (As in, sums the frequencies.)
17:39:54 <olsner> aah, ogerman is probably o-german, not oger-man
17:40:50 <olsner> is it weighted by the size of the input sets? I imagine --esolangs --x would not be very esolangy otherwise
17:41:18 <fizzie> olsner: I think all the models are normalized, but not sure.
17:41:49 <fizzie> `words --eng-1M --esolangs 15
17:41:53 <HackEgo> whailyletornentallyido ado dup lazzo ora son guo wierding befear sho affic miscudal yllangi abn evill
17:42:08 <fizzie> Well, that's not conclusive, but it looks quite esolangy.
17:42:27 <fizzie> (And whailyletornentallyido is probably quite a nice language.)
17:43:39 <olsner> dup is an esolang, isn't it? and befear is probably from befunge +/- some letters
17:45:49 <fizzie> Dupdog is. Apparently DUP is, too.
17:46:53 <fizzie> I was sort of expecting befear to actually exist, but seems that there's just Befreak.
17:47:49 <Bike> begrunge, a nirvana-based esolang
17:53:02 <fizzie> Begrudge, a language where the implementation runs your program but isn't happy about it at all.
17:56:39 <Fiora> that sounds a little like INTERCAL
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18:17:17 <Taneb> I managed to get to the semifinal without actually winning a match
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18:19:58 <Taneb> nortti: writing an AI for a Battleships-like game to run on a RaspberryPi
18:21:08 <Taneb> I almost actually got to the final without winning a match
18:21:28 <Taneb> My opponent almost got disqualified for misentering twice
18:21:47 <Taneb> I saved him out of the kindness in my heart
18:22:09 <Taneb> And the fact that if I managed to get to the final without winning I'd feel really unfulfilled
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18:33:38 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: I can't right now on account of the only computer I have access to which I am willing to install software on is a Raspberry Pi
18:33:49 <Taneb> And tomorrow is Freshers' Fair
18:33:53 <Taneb> Maybe tomorrow evening
18:34:39 <Phantom__Hoover> how does freshers work in universities that actually have a week for it
18:35:43 <Taneb> Basically, you have a week to get settled in with stuff like "This practical is where you learn to turn on a computer"
18:35:55 <Taneb> And then for one day all the societies try to get you to join them
18:36:02 <Taneb> And then it's over
18:37:22 <Phantom__Hoover> except the societies all try and get you to join on tuesday through thursday
18:56:04 <myname> anyone suggestions for naming my hardware in general or my new mini root in detail?
18:57:28 <myname> where does it come frome?
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19:04:10 <Phantom__Hoover> myname, it's one of the nitrogen-fixing bacteria in plants or something
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19:47:27 <boily> finally out of formation.
19:47:42 <boily> uuuuuuuuurgh... that was long. but now, I understand enterprisey stuff!
19:48:09 <Bike> hooray, apparently
19:48:56 <boily> I'm feeling dizzy on so many levels it's not funny.
19:48:59 <Bike> woe, apparently
19:49:23 <boily> the woe is amply felt, and I'm confused as ever about manufacturing processes.
19:56:43 <olsner> incidentally, that means scrotum
19:57:03 <boily> that's the second definition on urban dictionary about pung.
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20:53:55 <boily> some day, I'll get an amateur radio license...
20:54:00 * boily dreamily looks in the sky
20:54:41 <Bike> is the license in the sy or just the radio waves
20:56:48 <boily> license in the sky with radio waaaaves ♪
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21:15:22 <boily> the new swearing idiom, after the Fungottian Conjugations, “to give a BF”.
21:18:58 <boily> `learn JWinslow23 is a Wisconsinite who doesn't give a BF.
21:22:42 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:23:06 -!- boily has quit (Quit: probably poulet tonight. maybe. but don't bet on it.).
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21:23:18 <HackEgo> bash: JWinslow23: command not found
21:24:11 <Bike> `run echo JWinslow23
21:28:31 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:28:43 <JWinslow23> `If you're happy and you know it, SYNTAX ERROR!
21:28:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:14 <JWinslow23> `If you're happy and you know it, /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:24 <JWinslow23> `If you're happy and you know it, /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:42 <JWinslow23> `If you're happy and you know it, then your face will surely show it, if you're happy and you know it, /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
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21:41:06 <kmc> Error: something's wrong.
21:41:17 <ion> Error: an error occurred
21:47:23 <Phantom__Hoover> someone make a clever `? telling people to experiment with the bots in /query
21:48:28 <Koen__> doing irc in private sounds ultimately boring
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21:50:06 <kmc> I remember HL engine games that would crash with "Error: no error"
21:50:17 <kmc> the Linux equivalent is usually "Error: Success"
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22:03:09 <lambdabot> boily said 6h 47m 53s ago: you stealth quoted me 4 days ago!
22:03:31 <oerjan> @tell boily i don't recall there being anything stealthy about it.
22:03:48 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail -4
22:03:50 <HackEgo> 1112) <zzo38> It is probably also "horrifyingly fucked up" \ 1113) <boily> aaaaaurgh. you're making me think on a Monday! that shouldn't be happening! \ 1114) <kmc> what did fungot say? <fungot> kmc: my implementation isn't supposed to sound rude. \ 1115) <kmc> BBC: Exercise 'can be as good as pills' <kmc> oh, they mean for your health
22:09:22 <oerjan> @tell Gregor ais523 evicted your logs from the topic, you might want to fix them.
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22:25:52 <oerjan> <nortti> school computer has autocorrect? O_o <-- it's so the pupils will get used to computers being maddenly annoying.
22:29:51 <oerjan> @tell boily also, you are still confusing tac and rev
22:31:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | CaT
22:31:57 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ print (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())
22:32:33 <FireFly> is tac the one that reverses order of lines?
22:32:49 <FireFly> Okay, good, hopefully I'll remember that
22:32:49 <oerjan> what's the python for printing without a newline?
22:34:12 <FireFly> Good question. Unfortunately I don't know python
22:34:19 <olsner> add an extra comma at the end
22:35:46 <oerjan> olsner: i think that's perl, not python
22:36:04 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/493386/how-to-print-in-python-without-newline-or-space
22:36:34 <olsner> hmm, so comma adds a space instead of newline?
22:39:01 <oerjan> `run sed -i -e '1aimport sys' -e 's/print/sys.write/' bin/CaT #Let's see how much i messed this up
22:39:15 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ sys.write (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())
22:39:36 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/CaT", line 3, in <module> \ sys.write (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read()) \ AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'write' \ 0 0 0
22:40:07 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/write/stdout.write/' bin/CaT
22:40:18 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/CaT", line 3, in <module> \ sys.stdout.write (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read()) \ TypeError: must be string or read-only character buffer, not function \ 0 0 0
22:41:55 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/write /write (/;s/read(/read()/' bin/CaT
22:42:14 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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22:46:32 <quintopia> cosider a class of programs in which every program P can, given the right integer as input, output the listing of any other program in this class
22:46:34 <oerjan> quintopia: also what happened to your webside, we had to link Spiral to Wayback.
22:47:38 <quintopia> does it make sense to talk about the maximal such class?
22:47:56 <quintopia> i lost it when i stopped paying for it
22:48:55 <oerjan> there is clearly a program which ignores its input and prints itself (i.e. an ordinary quine). it cannot be extended, and there are many such, so "the" cannot apply.
22:49:29 <oerjan> *its single-program class cannot be extended
22:52:12 <oerjan> otoh the set of programs that can print _anything_ given an integer as input is such a class, i should think. although it might still be extendable.
22:52:30 <quintopia> yes, i would expect the most inclusive such class
22:52:45 <oerjan> it's the "the" that's the problem, not the "maximal" :P
22:53:19 <oerjan> it's obviously non-existent. just make two programs that can print anything, except each other.
22:53:32 <oerjan> which one should you include?
22:54:29 <oerjan> you can always find a maximal class, using zorn's lemma on the class you start with. (you might even be able to tweak it to be constructive to list.)
22:55:21 <oerjan> no wait, cannot be constructive/computable, it will be undecidable whether a program can be added to the class.
22:55:56 <oerjan> because you cannot check whether a program can print a given other program.
22:56:52 <oerjan> unless you start out with a class that is artificial limited to only decidable programs as the common output
22:56:58 <impomatic> Someone sent a tombstone to the creators of COBOL in 1960! http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X572.85
22:57:21 <Koen__> oerjan: what if you throw an equivalence relation over your programs
22:57:31 <Koen__> "if they do the same thing, they're the same program"
22:57:46 <oerjan> Koen__: that's not going to _help_ decidability.
22:57:47 <Koen__> and then reprensent every equivalency class by a decidable program
22:58:31 <oerjan> Koen__: there are probably programs that have no decidable equivalent programs.
22:59:02 <Koen__> even in the set of programs that print listings of other programs of the class given integers as input?
23:00:01 <Koen__> every program is equivalent to the sequence (output(n))_(n\inN)
23:00:36 <Koen__> surely you can make a decidable program matching that sequence?
23:01:13 <oerjan> um those programs don't match quintopia's initial problem afaict
23:01:55 <oerjan> sure you can make decidable programs for a simple example. the problem is coming up with anything interesting where you can decide for _all_ the members.
23:05:40 <kmc> nice, you can write any old HTML/CSS/JS in jsfiddle and then immediately download it as a Firefox OS mobile app
23:12:43 <quintopia> oerjan: what's the proof that it's impossible to prove an as-inclusive-as-possible maximal set is maximal
23:14:14 <kmc> `rot13 dongs
23:14:33 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't know, but i am saying you have to construct your maximal set very carefully to ensure no undecidable-whether-you-can-add-them candidates arise
23:14:51 <oerjan> and it might very well be impossible to do so.
23:15:06 <quintopia> in what situation would it become undecidable whether you can add them
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23:16:38 <oerjan> quintopia: if all the programs already printed are capable of printing a program whose halting problem is undecidable, and if it does halt the part after the loop belongs to the class...
23:17:39 <oerjan> and that's just the simplest context i could think of
23:18:22 <oerjan> you could also have programs at some point for which it is undecidable whether they can print a given other progra¨m
23:20:22 <oerjan> if you try to include only programs for which such things are decidable, then it may not be maximal in the original sense because there would always be a program with undecidability issues that _could_ be added.
23:20:51 <quintopia> so does this mean the existence of an as-inclusive-as-possible such class is undecidable?
23:21:52 <oerjan> i am not claiming to have any proof.
23:22:50 <Bike> class of what now
23:22:53 <oerjan> an added problem is that you have not defined "as-inclusive-as-possible"
23:23:18 <Bike> but not gregor's, i note
23:23:38 <oerjan> Bike: ais523 removed them. the .txt version still works.
23:24:03 <Bike> why are they removed
23:24:08 <Bike> the class of computable enumerations? hm
23:24:17 <Koen__> doesn't "A is as-inclusive-as-possible" mean "there is no set B (fitting the same criteria )
23:24:27 <Koen__> such that A is included in B"?
23:24:39 <oerjan> Bike: ask ais523, but my guess is because the link leads to a date listing page where the most prominent links _don't_ work.
23:24:59 <Bike> yes, i have been the most active Gregor-complainer during the crisis
23:25:01 <oerjan> Koen__: no, that's "maximal".
23:26:10 <oerjan> i understand quintopia to mean something else by "as-inclusive-as-possible", something that excludes my example above of every quine forming a single-element maximal class.
23:26:49 <Koen__> quines take input now?
23:27:06 <oerjan> Koen__: no, they ignore it.
23:27:09 <Koen__> (I was trying to be funny. sorry)
23:27:19 <Bike> jokes are disallowed in this space-time vector
23:27:29 <oerjan> but since there are obviously subsets of programs that exclude each other, the concept of "inclusive" seems _very_ vague to me.
23:27:43 <oerjan> to include something, you have to exclude something else.
23:28:19 <oerjan> and in what sense is whatever you include then "inclusive" if that's to mean something other than maximal.
23:28:35 <quintopia> oerjan: i don't know how to define it. i suppose the one you get by starting with all quines, then modifying them so they can all print each other
23:30:06 <oerjan> quintopia: i suspect a horrible mess of possible alternative definitions.
23:34:21 <oerjan> Bike: i never notice the log problem personally because my habit is to just bring up the last .txt link on the address line and edit the date.
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23:35:16 <Bike> i kinda like the formatting
23:35:36 <oerjan> i cannot stand the font size
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23:35:47 <oerjan> it's fine if i zoom out.
23:35:55 <Bike> oh... i think it's the same size as the .txt for me.
23:37:43 <oerjan> or wait, i may have to set the font size instead, i recall one of the options causes horrible wrapping.
23:38:18 <oerjan> (as in, the messages gets wrapped to right below the corresponding nick, iirc)
23:39:23 <oerjan> in any case, since .txt from the address bar means less tweaking, i use that.
23:40:10 <oerjan> well except in some cases, when the .txt gets horribly broken and i switch to the formatted version.
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23:40:31 <oerjan> right-to-left stuff sometimes does that.
23:41:11 <oerjan> (and it affects the whole _rest_ of the file after it.)
23:42:54 <oerjan> i wish Gregor would set the encoding on the .txt file, for some reason IE 10 hides the option to select utf-8 if it hasn't autodetected it deeply in a horribly long list of charset options.
23:43:25 <kmc> imo, fuck IE
23:43:30 <oerjan> (old IE 8 had utf-8 conveniently placed.)
23:44:34 <kmc> does it have "codepage 65001"
23:44:41 <oerjan> kmc: you're so predictable. also, does whatever you use have changing a wrongly detected encoding in a convenient place?
23:45:32 <kmc> yeah both Chrome and Firefox make that convenient
23:45:46 <kmc> I love that you can introduce security holes by convincing users to change the character encoding (or tricking the browser)
23:46:12 <oerjan> kmc: i don't see 65001 on the list.
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23:46:32 <oerjan> admittedly the list isn't _that_ long, but utf-8 isn't on the first page.
23:46:33 <kmc> I think I'm OK with being predictable
23:58:26 <kmc> "With Silk Road shut down, developers are finding it hard to do a rolling deploy" -- Hacker News Onion
23:58:48 <Bike> haha i get it, it's about "blunts"
23:58:52 <Koen__> are you ok with being decidable?
23:59:08 <kmc> Bike: so close yet
23:59:22 <Bike> this is me and every drug joke. right here. the platonic bike reaction.
23:59:38 <kmc> Koen__: the alternative is having unbounded state, which seems more terrifying
00:00:32 <Koen__> if you live a continuous life you'll probably endure an uncountable infinity of states
00:02:00 <Bike> i for one pride myself on living moment to moment.
00:04:53 <kmc> lol continuum is a lie
00:07:04 <Taneb> kmc, don't Zeno's paradoxes pretty much state "both time and distance are neither discrete nor continuous"?
00:08:45 <Bike> most of what i get out of zeno is "dang, calculus is nice"
00:09:25 <Taneb> Although Achilles and the Tortoise is a bit silly
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02:21:34 <Sgeo> I don't think Racket thinks I'm a consenting adult
02:24:05 <Sgeo> Things like not letting me force code that calls raise to continue after the raise unless the code itself supports it
02:24:57 <kmc> do you and Racket have a safeword
02:25:40 <oerjan> he's just forgotten to use the unsafeWord
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02:39:12 <zzo38> I replaced the power supply and now this computer works.
02:40:51 <zzo38> However, this power supply has three lights labeled "A", "S", "T", and a red button below them. The "A" light is lit blue. Do you know what this means?
02:42:57 <elliott> it's abstract, but not syntax or a tree.
02:58:16 <kmc> what happens if you press the button
03:00:25 <zzo38> I didn't push it yet.
03:06:02 <kmc> maybe you ought to
03:09:13 <oerjan> i dunno, what if "A" is for "atomic"
03:12:56 <kmc> zzo38: did that fix the noise as well
03:13:36 <zzo38> kmc: Installing the new power supply fix the noise and everything else that was going wrong.
03:15:10 <zzo38> Now in this Dungeons&Dragons game I have to find some leader of some resistance against Aberration Hater (which runs over the entire city they are in) in order to rescue someone from being imprisoned, but it is difficult to find and I will need some advisor helping with it and will need a boat and there are other problems too
03:17:10 <kmc> what's the boat for
03:17:43 <zzo38> We can travel by water or by land, but there is another war going on in the land; a boat might be better way.
03:17:56 <zzo38> So it isn't strictly necessary but I expect it to help.
03:19:18 <zzo38> Also some dwarf came in to say we finish our quest and gave us three horses and a silver ring; another wizard said he didn't trust him. Maybe that is correct; maybe he trained the horses wrong on purpose or something; I don't know.
03:22:04 <zzo38> I know about this resistance and imprisonment due to some kind of hallucination when trying to escape out of the demon's castle, it interrupted the escape and then the voice of my character's father's friend said some things, I tried to write it down but found only seaweed to write it on and only white ink to write with; but later on I found that it was actually written on paper, not seaweed, and with black ink, not white ink. If he is who he said
03:22:24 <zzo38> Oops did I send this message wrong? Did it get cut off?
03:22:46 <zzo38> (I got a ":cameron.freenode.net 421 zzo38 in :Unknown command" even though I typed no such command)
03:24:54 <oerjan> zzo38: it cut off after "If he is who he said"
03:25:14 <zzo38> If he is who he said he is, then I suppose my character's father's friend is a speaker in dreams.
03:25:27 <zzo38> Why did I get that error message?
03:25:47 <zzo38> (This is a single-threaded IRC client)
03:26:02 <oerjan> zzo38: perhaps you wrote the rest as a raw message?
03:26:34 <oerjan> i mean, the part after what was cut off
03:26:53 <zzo38> oerjan: I didn't; I wrote it all on one line before pushing the carriage return key, and then it came up this error message.
03:29:18 <oerjan> zzo38: well afaiu "in" is the command that was unknown.
03:29:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I can see that too
03:30:05 <oerjan> maybe the "in dreams." overflowed a buffer and got sent raw?
03:30:09 <zzo38> ("in" doesn't occur after that except as the second to last word)
03:31:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you mean after the CRLF is sent somehow? I don't know how.
03:32:53 <oerjan> the "i" is the 519th character.
03:37:51 <zzo38> I tried the red button it changes which light is lit and seems to affect the fan speed.
03:39:40 <oerjan> "Automatic", "Silent" and "Terrifying", clearly.
03:41:00 <zzo38> I get slightly bad video again but only when the CPU is in use a lot, it seems.
03:41:54 <zzo38> And not as bad as before.
03:44:14 <zzo38> Maybe I will need some spell to write on the water.
03:46:02 <zzo38> How do you clone the serial number and capacity of a hard disk?
03:46:43 <oerjan> didn't fizzie do something similar the other day
03:47:06 <oerjan> to move a windows installation
03:47:39 <oerjan> or someone here did, anyway.
03:48:14 <oerjan> except it wasn't actually the same capacity, he moved it from a hard disk to a smaller SSD iirc
03:49:24 <zzo38> I mean if you have a disk with a larger capacity and a different serial number and you want to move it so that it has the same serial number and capacity as the old one (so that a part of the new one isn't used)
03:50:53 <oerjan> ok. well i don't know anyway.
04:27:47 <zzo38> The video now only looks bad when I am standing far away from the computer.
04:28:00 <zzo38> It looks correct from close up.
04:29:32 <HackEgo> slist sb&hj: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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04:50:55 <HackEgo> danddreclist 42: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
04:52:17 <zzo38> The other thing I ought to do before going in the boat is to summon a familiar, but there are no stats for a leech in any of the books. There also isn't any stats for a big leech that we can downgrade (my brother's suggestion).
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04:58:57 <oerjan> just take a banker and downgrade that.
05:00:01 <zzo38> Hm... No, that won't work.
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05:07:45 <Sgeo> Watching talk on Go concurrency
05:07:58 <Sgeo> Talks about how concurrency != parallelism
05:08:12 <Sgeo> Then goes on to say how concurrency is
05:08:25 <zzo38> Is the video card or video cable bad? Is there something wrong with the surge protector?
05:08:37 <Sgeo> "(Much nicer than dealing with the minutiae of parallelism (threads, semaphores, locks, barriers, etc.)"
05:09:14 <Sgeo> Yeah, those things are totally features of parallelism rather than poor models of concurrency
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06:24:56 <zzo38> I think it does seem to have something to do with the video card.
06:25:27 <zzo38> Now it seems I am getting bad video only when the video memory is being written.
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07:39:23 <Sgeo> onfail $ run $ head -10 "README"
07:39:24 <Sgeo> has the same meaning as:
07:39:24 <Sgeo> (onfail (run (head -10 "README")))
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07:54:20 <Taneb> Sweet Sherlock and Hella Watson update
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09:57:48 <zzo38> Do you like this latest update for Dungeons&Dragons game recordings?
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13:44:18 <impomatic> I've found another three articles about Core War in old magazines and added them to the list http://www.retroprogramming.com/2011/11/bibliography-of-programming-games.html
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14:02:04 <Taneb> `quote at the same time
14:02:12 <HackEgo> 1031) <Bike> ok confession time <Bike> because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve <Bike> and everybody like reproduced at the same time \ 1062) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
14:02:31 <Taneb> You'll never guess what societies I've joined
14:02:56 <olsner> the unicycle sword juggling society?
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14:15:46 <Taneb> JuggleSoc said they'd teach me to ride a unicycle
14:16:07 <Taneb> MedievalSoc said they'd teach me to use a sword
14:16:49 <Bike> are they seriously named like cyberpunk security organizations
14:17:23 <Taneb> There's even HackSoc
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14:17:54 <Bike> do you get complementary mirrored glasses for joining
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14:28:38 <Taneb> Otherwise what is the point
14:30:27 <Taneb> I need to find a song I can sing to show off my singiness
14:31:10 <Koen__> HANG UP THE CHICK HABIT HANG IT UP DADDY YOYO hth
14:31:57 <Taneb> Koen__: is that going to get me into the cast of Jesus Christ Superstar
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14:32:27 <Koen__> but try having some car chasing going on while you sing
14:32:46 <Koen__> that could make a great movie
14:35:47 <Taneb> I was thinking If I Were A Rich Man
14:39:36 <Taneb> I have texted my actor-friend for advice
14:39:46 <Taneb> Hopefully he will not see me as a rival
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14:42:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> are they seriously named like cyberpunk security organizations
14:42:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i asked the sociology society if they were called SocSoc and they said yes
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15:11:14 <Taneb> Apparently there are at least 6 Homestuck fans at the University of York
15:23:21 <fizzie> Is that group called StuckSoc?
15:27:00 <Taneb> You need 15 to start a society
15:27:33 <Taneb> And as far as I know none of them has met more than three
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15:29:20 <fizzie> I suppose that's a security measure.
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15:36:14 <Sgeo> my smoke/co detector sems to be hallucinating a fire
15:38:32 <Sgeo> It's saying smoke, not co. If it was saying co, I wouldn't assume it was hallucinating
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15:57:26 <JWinslow23> I finally got my Tic-Tac-Toe idea into a wiki page!
15:59:05 <Sgeo> I hope my detector wasn't misreporting CO as fire
15:59:41 <Sgeo> My smoke detector/CO alarm went off, reporting smoke, no evidence of any fire anywhere in sight
16:00:52 <Bike> j's right, what if the fire got time-displaced?
16:00:59 <Sgeo> A few minutes ago
16:01:17 <Sgeo> I threw it away, worried that it would disturb neighbors
16:01:43 <Sgeo> It stopped chirping shortly after reaching the dumpster
16:03:16 <JWinslow23> So, anyone have any suggestions for the Tic Tac Toe language?
16:03:31 <Bike> you just... threw away your smoke detector?
16:03:44 <ion> Makes sense.
16:03:58 <ion> Much easier than, say, removing the battery.
16:04:04 <ion> And you get to buy a new one.
16:04:15 <shikhin> Yeah, what if the old one was faulty?
16:04:27 <Sgeo> ion: I tried to remove the battery. I failed.
16:04:35 <shikhin> What if it burst into flames... would be ironic, won't it?
16:05:02 <ion> (Is it legal to throw smoke detectors to normal trash? They contain a small amount of radioactive material, and in this case, also a battery.)
16:05:07 <Sgeo> I just realized how suspicious an uncomfortable-looking person holding a beeping device wrapped in a blanket must seem
16:05:22 <Sgeo> Some neighbor saw me on my way to throw it out
16:05:43 <Sgeo> ion: my dad claims yes, so... maybe?
16:06:13 <JWinslow23> Every time I come here, I see a lot of smart people...oh look, you're all here too!
16:06:22 <ion> shikhin: I got rid of a smoke alarm that emitted a smell of smoking electronics when i powered it up once.
16:07:04 <ion> (I left it at a recycling center.)
16:07:09 <Sgeo> I am concerned what if there is actually somethign in my apartment triggering it
16:07:31 <ion> Are the other detectors silent?
16:07:50 <Koen__> JWinslow23: I like the idea of a tic tac toe language. but WHY would you make it a brainfuck derivative? :(
16:08:19 <JWinslow23> I wanted other commands, but I didn't have any ideas!
16:08:21 <Sgeo> I only have/had one detector
16:09:09 <shikhin> Well, you'd sure as hell know if it was right, and something really is wrong :-)
16:09:19 <ion> sgeo: ಠ_ಠ Do you only have one room?
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16:09:39 <Sgeo> ion: two rooms. Bathroom, and rest of apartment
16:09:59 <Sgeo> Although there's a very short hallway leading into the bathroom, so there's a divider wall
16:10:05 <Sgeo> Although there's a very short hallway leading into the bathroom, so there's a divider wall
16:10:13 <ion> end chorus
16:10:15 <Sgeo> Although, I guess kitchen is semi-separate
16:10:46 <Sgeo> shikhin: unless alarm misreported CO as fire...
16:10:56 <JWinslow23> Anyone have any other ideas for commands on my tic tac toe board? I do NOT want any more bf derivatives! >:-[
16:11:24 * shikhin 's house lacks any sorts of alarm detectors, let alone CO detectors..
16:11:54 <Bike> maybe you should get some.
16:12:20 <shikhin> Bike: I live in a third world country, heh.
16:13:46 <Bike> are they expensive?
16:14:00 <Bike> i think every buildin i've ever lived in has had them preinstalled, now that i think about it
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16:14:44 <JWinslow23> I'll change it to a stack based language. I will have to have help, though.
16:16:06 <Bike> already sounds like underload
16:17:03 <JWinslow23> Well, if no one will help me, we'll be stuck with this BF derivative forever.
16:18:41 <myname> why is there no flood-kicking bot?
16:18:54 <Bike> because most of us aren't stupid enough to spam the fucking channel.
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16:19:32 <myname> JWinslow23: C is just a BF derivate :p
16:20:30 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
16:20:33 -!- elliott has kicked JWinslow23 don't flood.
16:20:34 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
16:21:10 <ion> myname: You just witnessed our fleshy flood-kicking bot in action.
16:21:30 * Fiora god was kicked from #earth by Noah [don't flood]
16:22:00 <Bike> does that mean elliott is satan
16:22:18 <ion> I think he’s just Santana and/or Santa.
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16:23:46 <Bike> elliott: how did you obtain the power to kick God? what deal have you wrought out?
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16:31:39 <JWinslow23> Sorry about the flood, you guys. I promise I won't ever again.
16:32:27 <JWinslow23> I'm still looking for ideas on how to make TicTacToe stack-based, though.
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16:34:45 <myname> i had some ideas on how a program may look like, but it isnn't closely based on the game
16:35:37 <JWinslow23> So you know, I want it to be like the original at least a little bit.
16:35:46 <myname> like, each command is made out of 2 numbers that represent a move, moving again on the same spot will remove that mark, the programm terminates if one player has won
16:36:31 <JWinslow23> Still isn't stack based, though. i also want it to follow the rules of the game.
16:36:53 <JWinslow23> Like, you don't throw the checkers board at someone's face, do you?
16:42:30 <Sgeo> How else would you play?
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16:43:44 <Koen__> Sgeo: throw the pawns at someone's eyes
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16:46:58 <Koen__> so imagine you've got a checker's game going on
16:47:15 <Koen__> every pawn carries a value
16:47:38 <Koen__> pawns that get captured go to the prisoners queue of the appropriate colour
16:48:28 <Koen__> whenever a pawn reaches the end row, it gets promoted: a pawn is taken from the appropriate prisoner queue and pushed on it (so it's a stack of pawns)
16:49:04 <Koen__> note that promotion happen not only to single pawns, but to any stack which reaches the end row
16:50:06 <Koen__> popping an empty queue presumably returns a fresh pawn with value 0, so that memory isn't limited
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16:50:49 <Koen__> now the question is: how to program this game?
16:51:30 <Koen__> would be fun if a program was a list of directions, strategies, etc
16:51:40 <Koen__> and the game is played at runtime by a bot following those directions
16:53:21 <Koen__> sad thing is, currently the number of stacks is limited to the number of pawns initially present on the board, and even though the total number of pawns is unbounded, the number of stacks can never grow, and it will in fact decrease every time a stack is captured
16:54:53 <Koen__> directions can be of the kind "whenever you can capture, capture" or "if you can promote, promote" or whatever
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16:55:59 <Koen__> currently, interaction between the two sides can only be done through play; black values are completely independant of white values
16:56:06 <Koen__> unless you can give directions that depend on the values
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17:18:56 <Bike> Gregor: thank you!
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17:20:12 -!- Bike has set topic: fnord, offset fnord (with no evidence) | PDF while supplies last: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/log/sesoteric/ | this space intentionally left right.
17:23:20 -!- ion has set topic: fnord, offset fnord (with no evidence) | PDF while supplies last: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/log/sesoteric/ | this spacetime intentionally left right.
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17:50:16 <kmc> oh in the url
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17:50:33 <Sgeo> I miss mutation
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17:51:48 <zzo38> What kind of mutation?
17:52:14 <Bike> hardy-weinberg violating mutations
17:53:08 <kmc> wow so you can plug a Firefox OS phone into your computer, open up the Firefox developer tools on the computer, and inspect / debug / mess with the running app on the phone, in realtime
17:53:39 <kmc> so if you don't like the background color or whatever you can just fix that
17:54:44 <kmc> also we have a pure JavaScript implementation of Flash which is good enough to play some real games etc, and it's in FF nightly
17:56:32 <kmc> good for a lot of reasons, one of which is that new versions of Adobe Flash on Linux are Chrome-only :/
17:57:33 <Bike> uh, wow, that's gotta suck.
17:57:36 <Gregor> But can it do the one thing that people actually use Flash for: Play videos
17:58:02 <kmc> Flash games are popular too
17:58:13 <kmc> but I don't know what the status of video is
17:58:39 <kmc> it seems like it shouldn't be that hard, because you only need to run enough Flash to get a video URL to hand off to the browser's already existing video support
17:58:43 <kmc> but I don't know shit really
17:58:54 <Sgeo> kmc: that debugging thing I think other things can do too for web sites
17:58:57 <kmc> of course we'd rather people use HTML5 video
17:59:12 <Sgeo> iOS's browser can be hooked up to Safari on Mac
17:59:33 <kmc> Sgeo: but you can do it for any FxOS app, because they're all using Web tech
17:59:41 <kmc> that's the cool part imo
18:01:58 <kmc> myname: yep
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19:58:26 <kmc> shachaf: do you share my intuition that a hash trie where each node is refcounted would have terrible performance?
19:58:58 <kmc> (in a concurrent setting anyway)
19:59:06 <kmc> due to making every node 1 word bigger + atomic ops overhead + loss of cacheline sharing
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20:01:13 * impomatic is searching for a copy of CoreMaster by Think Software. Zero hits from Google, so I might struggle...
20:01:30 <Fiora> kmc: what sort of structure would it be replacing?
20:04:30 <kmc> I don't have a specific application in mind, but the advantage over a flat hash table is that you get pure-functional update / cheap snapshotting, and the advantage over a simple search tree is that it's a lot faster
20:05:18 <Fiora> I guess if it's mostly read, and rarely written to, it'd be okay, right?
20:05:33 <Fiora> I guess that'd be a hash table where you can easily remove things, right...?
20:05:41 <kmc> but in that case you could also consider copying a flat hash table
20:06:16 <kmc> well the unique thing is more that your add/modify/remove operations give you a "new" datastructure (which mostly shares nodes with the old) rather than modifying in place
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20:06:33 <Fiora> how does that work O_O
20:06:44 <Fiora> wouldn't each node have like, pointers to its child nodes and stuff?
20:06:50 <kmc> do you know how it works for a plain binary search tree?
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20:07:03 <Fiora> I... I guess you replace the node you're changing, and all of its parents?
20:07:10 <kmc> if you implement a BST in Haskell in the most naive way, you get this for free ^_^
20:07:24 <Fiora> so you end up modifying... log(N) of the tree nodes if it's balenced?
20:07:25 <kmc> so if the tree is balanced, you copy only O(log n) data
20:07:46 <kmc> and a hash trie is a tree where instead of going left/right based on a pairwise comparison, you go left/right based on the bits of a hash output
20:08:00 <kmc> and furthermore you probably want a 16- or 32-way fanout instead of 2-way
20:08:25 <kmc> and furthermore most of those 16 or 32 pointers will be NULL most of the time, so you can use clever bit tricks to store nodes sparsely
20:08:39 <kmc> and fit each node into a cache line
20:08:54 <Fiora> 64 bytes is pretty big for a node, isn't it? or am I missing something
20:09:19 <olsner> 64 bytes is a cache line, isn't it?
20:09:31 <kmc> or fit multiple nodes in a cache line, I guess
20:09:41 <kmc> but you take care that they're aligned, anyway
20:09:56 <Fiora> there'd only becontention if you had multiple nodes in a cacheline, right?
20:11:29 <kmc> you mean with refcounting?
20:11:59 <Fiora> oh you mean contention with like, multiple threads updating a single node at the same time? not cacheline contention with like, multiple nodes being modified in the same cacheline
20:12:14 <kmc> the problem is that when you do a functional update, you need to bump the refcount on the nodes you're reusing (even though you aren't modifying them at a semantic level), and this will kill sharing of that cacheline between cores
20:12:29 <Fiora> ohhh. but doesn't that mean modifying the trie is O(N)?
20:12:38 <kmc> so nodes will bounce between caches in exclusive mode, instead of being shared, which is what you would want from ostensible immutable data
20:12:39 <Fiora> because you have to modify O(N-log(N)) nodes' refcounts
20:12:49 <Fiora> or am I totally wrong here
20:12:56 <kmc> I think no, because you only count immediate referants not transitive referants
20:13:12 <kmc> the child of a node you're reusing already has a refcount from its parent
20:13:39 <kmc> but you're creating O(log n) new nodes that refer to some old ones
20:13:58 <Fiora> okay, so you update the refcounts on all the children of your new nodes?
20:13:59 <kmc> and you need to bump the refcount on all the old nodes
20:14:01 <Fiora> erm, immediate children
20:14:06 <kmc> yeah, I think so
20:14:12 <Fiora> not all the old nodes... okay that sorta makes sense
20:14:24 <Fiora> so it's log(N) * some constant refcount updates and log(N) new nodes ish?
20:14:43 <kmc> I think so
20:15:24 <kmc> though a 16-fanout hash trie over a 64-bit hash will have a maximum depth of 4, anyway
20:15:47 <fizzie> If you have 16-fanout, isn't that just 4 bits?
20:15:48 <kmc> so I shouldn't say O(log N)
20:16:01 <kmc> ah, yes, I can't count
20:16:05 <kmc> depth of 16 then
20:16:16 <kmc> what's 4 orders of magnitude between friends
20:16:32 <fizzie> Absolutely nothing. Here, have a flower: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131005-flower.jpg
20:16:44 <fizzie> (I just wanted an excuse to share the photo.)
20:16:57 <kmc> what kind is it?
20:17:13 <olsner> maybe instead of addrefing the new children you could just addref the old node you copied
20:17:19 <olsner> that overcounts one reference to something you've removed from the new tree, but you can fix that later
20:17:26 <fizzie> No idea. I think I was told, but I've forgotten already.
20:17:48 <kmc> olsner: do you then need to keep a pointer to the old node so you can collect it when the new one goes away?
20:18:08 <olsner> (wave hands until reaching a working algorithm)
20:18:41 <olsner> yes, you'd probably need another pointer somewhere
20:18:49 <fizzie> Huh, Oxford University Flower Recognition Demo actually maybe even recognized it, I think: http://zeus.robots.ox.ac.uk:8080/flower_demo/demo_result?id=3152
20:18:55 <fizzie> At least the first hit looks quite similar.
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20:19:27 <fizzie> Er, not the first, the fourth.
20:19:43 <kmc> woah that's a thing?
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20:20:34 <fizzie> kmc: Their picture was the first hit in a Google "search by image" query, that's how I found it.
20:20:52 -!- Zuu has joined.
20:20:55 <fizzie> (First time that was useful for anything.)
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20:56:30 <impomatic> Has anyone here got access to the Tamiment Library at New York Uni?
21:05:54 -!- JWinslow23 has joined.
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21:08:18 <Bike> that's a pretty specific question
21:08:27 <HackEgo> ZuU: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
21:12:01 <nortti> `run echo "WeLcOmE $* | rainwords" > bin/ReLcOmE
21:12:16 <nortti> `chmod 755 bin/ReLcOmE
21:12:17 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `755 bin/ReLcOmE' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
21:12:24 <nortti> `run chmod 755 bin/ReLcOmE
21:13:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cls: not found
21:13:55 <JWinslow23> `learn cls is a command to clear the screen.
21:14:11 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:14:22 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
21:14:43 <Bike> like most interactive systems, this thing has like four separate help systems, the distinction of which is obscure
21:14:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cls: not found
21:14:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdom: not found
21:15:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: How: not found
21:15:21 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
21:15:21 <HackEgo> cls is a command to clear the screen.
21:15:44 <Bike> wow, that would actually have been helpful in this context.
21:18:06 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
21:19:13 <nortti> :/ even though IRCNet allows #øæ’jµ it doesn't allow nick ørjan
21:19:16 <impomatic> Bike: the Uni Library has a one of a kind item in their collection I'm interested in.
21:19:40 <Bike> just wondering. i don't have access.
21:20:19 <HackEgo> cls is a command to clear the screen.
21:20:54 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
21:21:11 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:21:38 <HackEgo> cls is a command to clear the screen.
21:22:02 <JWinslow23> `learn Batch is a language that uses the command cls.
21:22:16 <HackEgo> Batch is a language that uses the command cls.
21:22:53 <Bike> elliott: i just realized that indiana jones should probably have taken the grail solely for its archaelogical value, irrespective of the moral choice thing.
21:23:13 <Bike> elliott: well, i mean, in the forties. archaelogists still basically stole crap back then i think
21:23:40 <JWinslow23> `learn Humphrey Bogart is a cousin to Lady Di.
21:23:55 <HackEgo> Humphrey Bogart? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:24:11 <HackEgo> Humphrey Bogart is a cousin to Lady Di.
21:24:22 <HackEgo> aah ambiguous acronym here
21:24:54 -!- Zuu has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:24:54 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
21:25:02 <HackEgo> NIMBY : Not in my backyard? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:25:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: NIMBY: not found
21:25:29 <HackEgo> NIMBY : Not in my backyard.
21:25:31 <HackEgo> NIMBY : Not in my backyard.
21:25:49 <kmc> CAVE People : Citizens Against Virtually Everything
21:26:14 <JWinslow23> BANANA: Build absolutely nothing anywhere near anybody
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21:27:23 <impomatic> Bike, elliot: They have some negatives from a Core War tournament
21:27:38 <Bike> oh, like, photos?
21:27:52 <JWinslow23> `? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯?
21:27:54 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯?? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:28:20 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/learn: line 4: wisdom/: Is a directory \ I knew that.
21:28:33 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯?? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:28:40 <impomatic> Yes. I have an archive or Core War stuff. Am trying to find as much as possible before it disappears forever.
21:28:48 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:28:52 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +qq HackEgo!*@* myndzi!*@*.
21:28:54 <JWinslow23> I'm trying to make a quine in the shell thing, Phantom Hoover!
21:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> if you want to do spammy things with the bots, do them in /query
21:29:24 <Bike> I'm good at this.
21:29:34 <impomatic> Also, I'm doing the same for other programming games, e.g. Darwin and RobotWar.
21:29:50 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -qqo HackEgo!*@* myndzi!*@* elliott.
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21:30:37 <Bike> impomatic: have you contacted the library? maybe they can just like, scan it for you.
21:30:44 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
21:31:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:32:22 <HackEgo> cat: quines: Is a directory
21:32:29 <HackEgo> cat \ perl \ python \ q \ ruby
21:32:34 <Bike> `ls quines/cat
21:32:39 <Bike> `cat quines/cat
21:34:20 <elliott> `run echo q; cat quines/cat
21:34:28 <elliott> I was hoping it actually said "No output."
21:36:21 <ais523> elliott: it'd still be a quine if it did, ofc
21:36:30 <impomatic> Bike: will be sending an email. Just need to write a decent description of the project.
21:36:50 <Zuu> nortti: thanks
21:36:50 <Zuu> my poopish connection is being poopish again :(
21:37:38 <kmc> popeish connection
21:42:55 <myname> JWinslow23: you are bored, aren't you?
21:44:02 <JWinslow23> Anyone have any suggestions for making Tic Tac Toe (my language) stack based?
21:44:12 <zzo38> I don't have a suggestion
21:44:32 <ion> 0) Add a stack
21:44:52 <zzo38> Is it the cable, the monitor, or the motherboard that is causing the bad video?
21:44:54 <JWinslow23> Well yes, but what 8 commands can I use for stack manipulation?
21:45:11 <myname> JWinslow23: +-><[],. :p
21:45:31 <Koen__> push, pop, swap, dup...
21:45:57 <JWinslow23> Koen, you may be hitting on something!
21:46:00 <Koen__> just pop any page from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Stack-based
21:46:15 <Koen__> and rip off what's there and make a copy and post it
21:46:20 <zzo38> 1 - * DUP there are others too
21:46:38 <JWinslow23> I am! Just need something with 8 commands. I haven't found that yet, though.
21:46:49 <nooodl> i like how +-><[],. is a valid "head -c 1" program
21:47:26 <nooodl> i wonder how many different programs you can get from anagrams of the 8 brainfuck commands
21:47:28 <zzo38> The +-><[] is irrelevant
21:47:47 <zzo38> They cancel each other out and [] is nothing when the value is already zero
21:48:00 <Bike> impomatic: apparently i know somebody who has access.
21:48:39 <Koen__> ,.-[>+<] everythign relevant
21:50:08 <Koen__> JWinslow23: if > means "push 0" and < means "pop" then +-><[],. are the commands for a stack-based language
21:50:53 <myname> Koen__: that shouldn't be turing complete
21:51:15 <myname> where would you pop to?
21:51:25 <ion> Don’t pop where you eat.
21:52:10 <nooodl> <>[,+.-] enterprise brainfuck encryption
21:52:18 <Koen__> or maybe there are two stacks and > and < just means "pop from a to push onto b" and vice versa
21:52:22 <Koen__> which is basically brainfuck
21:52:54 <Koen__> assuming popping an empty stack gives a zero
21:53:03 <Koen__> (well, gives something, anyway)
21:53:43 <ais523> nooodl: I interpreted your [,+.-] loop as just being a caesar cipher that adds 1 to every codepoint
21:53:56 <ais523> that seems pretty much like enterprise brainfuck encryption to me
21:54:12 <zzo38> Can it be made some esolang that is Turing complete if transcendental numbers are allowed and not Turing complete if it isn't?
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21:54:49 <JWinslow23> Post on the talk page. I will play Monopoly.
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21:54:55 <Koen__> making such an esolang is your task now, zzo38
21:54:58 <nooodl> i was going to call it that, but i predicted someone would point out how it doesn't properly wrap Z to A
21:55:12 <impomatic> Bike: well if they're feeling generous, they're in box 26b, shoot 300030. ;-)
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21:55:51 <myname> i thought about making a language that only has half-bits as data types
21:56:44 <Bike> i should probably have a better understanding of how fractional bits work.
21:56:55 <impomatic> Just the way the reference negatives I think!
21:56:56 <elliott> @google turkey bomb cat's eye
21:56:57 <lambdabot> http://catseye.tc/node/TURKEY%20BOMB.html
21:56:57 <lambdabot> Title: TURKEY BOMB | Cat's Eye Technologies
21:57:30 <myname> Bike: my basic idea was to say "half-bit b is the oposite of half-bit a" and so making a decidable full bit
21:57:37 <ais523> is catseye working again, then?
21:57:39 <Bike> well hooking you up with some random undergrad probably won't help you out
21:59:01 <Fiora> myname: is that like quantum entanglement?
21:59:07 <Fiora> like, if you have two particles A and B, and you know they have opposite spins
21:59:14 <Fiora> you have one bit of information about A and B, so half a bit about each, right
21:59:26 <Bike> knowing what a number in 0-9 is exactly is ln 10 bits of information, right?
21:59:51 <myname> Fiora: yeah, but if you don't declare b the opposite of a and you ask of the value of a you either get 1 or it doesn't terminate
22:00:18 <elliott> well, the problem is you're asking for a bit out of a half-bit there, no?
22:00:24 <elliott> so of course it doesn't necessarily terminate, it isn't a total operation
22:00:41 <Bike> wow why did i think ln meant log 2, yes, log 2
22:01:09 <fizzie> You could argue that the natural log should be the one that's most natural given the context.
22:01:18 <Bike> i don't want to, though.
22:01:28 <myname> elliott: well, if the opposite of a semi-decidable language is semi-decisable, then the language itself is decidable and so should be the bit
22:01:47 <Fiora> isn't the natural log always the most natural
22:02:32 <kmc> natural log is best log
22:03:10 <Bike> so knowing the value of a nonnegative integer less than the square root of two should be half a bit of information. clearly. i've got this down.
22:03:45 <myname> Bike: 0 to 9 is more than 1 bit
22:04:18 <Bike> it's log2 10 bits, i said.
22:04:22 <Fiora> fractional bits has me thinking of arithmetic coding -_-
22:07:34 <Bike> that kind of makes sense intuitively, since knowing the value of the third bit of a nonnegative integer less than ten is useless if the other three bits are 111, or 110, or 101, or 100, or 011, or 010, but not if they're 001 or 000.
22:09:05 <zzo38> I have also thought of fraction bits of information, but I have also tried to think of programming with negative number of bits of information, too.
22:10:52 <elliott> Bike: now figure out negative bits.
22:11:18 <Bike> elliott: knowing the naked appearance of a united states supreme court justice.
22:12:20 <Bike> or: the value of a nonnegative integer less than 1/x has -x bits.
22:14:41 <ais523> the negative bits thing in TURKEY BOMB is easy enough to figure out
22:14:58 <ais523> if you have a negative-bits value, then it requires more storage to represent in anything that contains everything except that value
22:15:09 <Bike> oh. right, you just don't use a uniform distribution.
22:18:17 <Bike> if x is discretely uniformly distributed between 0 and 9, the third bit is zero with 80% probability, and the second is zero with 40%, bla bla bla.
22:18:27 <Bike> thank you for permitting me to go over this stupid basic stuff
22:19:42 <ais523> Bike: that works for fractional amount of bits between 0 and 1
22:21:21 <ais523> Bike: using weighted probabilities to get values with less than a bit
22:21:40 <ais523> I guess you'd have a negative number of bits in storage in something that was 120% likely to be a 0, and -20% likely to be a 1
22:22:17 <Bike> Fiora: negative probabilities. quick say something quantum
22:23:37 <elliott> ais523: so we just need more people to give it 120% if we want to store negative bits?
22:23:38 <ais523> well negative bits don't really make sense
22:23:54 <ais523> if you had enough negative-sized files, you could just store a load of them to free up disk space
22:24:31 <Bike> oh, good, and i forgot that the bits aren't independently distributed. i am terrible today.
22:26:21 <Bike> i'm reasonably sure negative information is a used concept. maybe only conditional information, though.
22:27:02 <Bike> only in quantum. great
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22:28:07 <Bike> "The negative conditional entropy is also known as the coherent information, and gives the additional number of bits above the classical limit that can be transmitted in a quantum dense coding protocol" and here we run into the famous "bike doesn't know know quantum" paradox of einstein's
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22:32:27 <Koen__> dan simmons has this nice "use the word 'quantum' whenever you don't feel like explaining how it works" paradigm
22:34:34 <Bike> i thinki have shannon's paper lying around somewhere. i could just read it.
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22:46:21 <oerjan> <Sgeo> onfail $ run $ head -10 "README"
22:46:39 <oerjan> <Sgeo> (onfail (run (head -10 "README")))
22:47:04 <oerjan> what language is this? technically haskell does that but -10 doesn't work sensibly for it.
22:47:39 <oerjan> (because the - is binary subtraction)
22:48:27 * oerjan thinks there should be a flag for people who have been idle for hours.
22:48:28 <olsner> is it? I thought that was one of those horrible bits of odd syntax
22:48:31 <olsner> but of course I don't remember which direction it was odd
22:49:01 <zzo38> oerjan: There is in ifMUD (although you can disable this feature). In IRC you can check using WHOIS.
22:49:04 <oerjan> olsner: the odd part is that (- 10) is unary minus, and not a section using the binary one.
22:50:07 <oerjan> zzo38: by flag i mean something that shows up in the initial channel listing.
22:50:38 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wiki time list elite dice cide
22:50:39 <zzo38> In the NAMES list?
22:51:25 <oerjan> zzo38: hm well i guess irssi probably sends a NAMES command to get it.
22:51:46 <oerjan> or something like that.
22:52:24 <zzo38> (It is also received when you join the channel, automatically)
22:52:49 <zzo38> (You can push NAMES to make it receive even afterward, though.)
22:54:44 <Vorpal> This is like the stupidest thing youtube has done so far... It decided to start all videos muted as of late afternoon today.
22:54:45 <zzo38> I have the idea of a new kind of trainer card for use in Pokemon card game: Pick one card from your trash, hand, or an energy attached to one of your cards in play, and put it with your side cards. You cannot use this if you already have six side cards.
22:55:03 <Sgeo> oerjan: Any Lispy language that allows sweet-exprs
22:56:37 <Bike> sweet exprs. ok.
22:56:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: does that include the preceding ad? if so that will be a feature for me :D
22:56:49 <zzo38> What is "sweet-exprs"?
22:57:26 <Sgeo> zzo38: http://readable.sourceforge.net/
22:57:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, Hm, no idea, I have been watching ad-free channels most of the afternoon
22:57:50 <zzo38> Can you explain to me so I don't have to open it right now? I will open to read later.
22:57:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hey, I got that too.
22:58:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, you could try adblock btw, though of course if you do, that would prevent the independent creators from getting those 0.01 cents from your view or whatever
22:58:19 <Bike> woo, more syntax arguments
22:58:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, really? How to fix
22:58:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: No idea. (Took me a moment staring at alsamixer settings wondering what's wrong before noticing the youtube-level mute.)
22:58:49 <Sgeo> zzo38: a reader-level pass that takes something like {a + b + c} and turns it to (+ a b c), for example
22:58:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: is there adblock for IE?
22:59:02 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, that's what you mean.
22:59:23 <Sgeo> It only takes a "friendlier" (by someone's standards) syntax and converts it in a straightforward way to s-exprs
22:59:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Thanks for your patience, all. We have been aware of this issue. It should be resolved soon.
22:59:35 <Sgeo> No semantic interpretation is done
22:59:36 <fizzie> While this issue is live, please try clearing your browser's cache and cookies, --"
22:59:43 <Bike> isn't that just a parser?
22:59:45 <fizzie> (Writes someone on the Google product forums.)
22:59:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, ... seriously? Heh
23:00:05 <Sgeo> Bike: I guess?
23:00:11 <Vorpal> I would assume you would need to clear the flash cookie thingies
23:00:12 <Bike> into sexps instead of asts, i guee.
23:01:48 <Sgeo> At least the {} seems like a really good idea for math stuff. The indentation stuff freaks me out a bit
23:02:37 <Bike> i don't really get why "readable lisp" is such a persistent idea. i mean, have you ever read a math paper, the notation is worse than any programming language.
23:02:43 <Bike> but it's not important anyway.
23:03:04 <zzo38> I do not think all of mathematical notation is necessarily so bad.
23:03:15 <Bike> hopefully i'll never have to hear somebody say SVO is natural for huans ever again.
23:03:58 <zzo38> Also I don't think Lisp and Forth and so on have really bad syntax even though some people says it is.
23:04:32 <oerjan> Bike: is math worse than even apl?
23:05:14 <Bike> The way I figure it, math needs its own typesetting programming language, and no programming language i know of does.
23:05:27 <Bike> quite possible this is comparing apples and oranges, but...
23:05:43 <Sgeo> There's an SFRI in 'final' status for the infix stuff
23:10:08 <zzo38> The kind of card I described above, can have a lot of possible uses. (However, it is usually pretty worthless by themself.)
23:10:28 <Sgeo> I see a potential confusion
23:10:46 <Sgeo> {a get-new-op() b get-new-op() c}
23:10:59 <Sgeo> (get-new-op) is only present once in what that expands to
23:11:22 <Sgeo> ((get-new-op) a b c)
23:11:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, did clearing the cache work?
23:12:23 <oerjan> @tell Taneb i suggest staying away from IngSoc
23:15:00 <Bike> Sgeo: should be ((begin (get-new-op) (get-new-op)) a b c), clearly.
23:15:48 <Bike> that's actually kind of interesting though, i suppose it means no associativity.
23:16:38 <Sgeo> There isn't. There's also no operator mixing like {a + b - c} unless you define a macro... it expands to ($nfx$ a + b - c)
23:17:55 <zzo38> What is the best way to define an ordering in SQL so that you can insert a record in between two specified records (even if some records are deleted before that happens)?
23:18:09 <Bike> i mean associativity in scheme in general. like, (op) can always return an associative operator, and yet you can have ((op) ((op) a b) c) != ((op) a ((op) b c)).
23:18:42 <myname> zzo38: well, if you don't specify any "ORDER BY" clause, sql results are "unordered"
23:19:03 <myname> zzo38: if you do have ORDER BY, just make a value at the position you want
23:22:59 <zzo38> myname: I know that; I mean to define the collation of the field and the function to make it create these ordering values, and then you can use ORDER BY that field.
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23:25:29 <Bike> print("hakkkashdfhanuipioquqqqquiusakdfjii10")
23:26:33 <HackEgo> JWinslow23 is a Wisconsinite who doesn't give a BF.
23:27:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:29:48 <zzo38> So do you know how to do this, then?
23:30:28 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:32:23 -!- nisstyre has joined.
23:32:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:33:36 <Bike> ^ul (:aSS):aSS
23:34:47 <JWinslow23> ^ul (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
23:34:47 <fungot> (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
23:35:15 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:35:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:35:32 <Bike> the available languages are bf and ul, it says.
23:35:59 <Bike> haha, you skimmed one line huh
23:36:52 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
23:38:18 <oerjan> wait how does that even work
23:39:20 <JWinslow23> ^bf ,[.,]~Oh, yeah. Anything over 1 requires loop.
23:39:35 <JWinslow23> ^bf ,[.,]!Oh, yeah. Anything over 1 requires loop.
23:39:35 <fungot> Oh, yeah. Anything over 1 requires loop.
23:39:42 <fungot> Oh, yeah. Anything over 1 requires loop.
23:41:09 <Bike> inks, as in the end of my message ^Ablinks.^A
23:41:10 <olsner> fungot, the fixpoint out of time
23:41:11 <fungot> olsner: gmane even has a chance of comming back to it and then complain that it `does not work'.
23:42:08 <oerjan> fizzie: i think we found a new fungot bug
23:42:09 <fungot> oerjan: but i'd say haskell introduces extra semantics, then. i'm surprised he doesn't have to be a bit less silly. i can feel it.
23:42:35 <JWinslow23> ^bf ->+>+++>>+>++>+>+++>>+>++>>>+>+>+>++>+>>>>+++>+>>++>+>+++>>++>++>>+>>+>++>++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>++>++>>>>+>>++>+>+++>>>++>>++++++>>+>>++>+>>>>+++>>+++++>>+>+++>>>++>>++>>+>>++>+>+++>>>++>>+++++++++++++>>+>>++>+>+++>+>+++>>>++>>++++>>+>>++>+>>>>+++>>+++++>>>>++>>>>+>+>++>>+++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>+++>>++>++>+>+++>+>++>++>>>>>>++>+>+++>>>>>+++>>>++>+>+++>+>+>++>>>>>>++>>>+>>>++>+>>>>+++>+>>>+>>++>+>++++++++++++++++++>>>>+>+>>>+>>+
23:42:54 <olsner> is it a bug? if fungot does it, surely it must be a feature
23:42:55 <fungot> olsner: 19:05 is a funny gmt time to get to the code that implements the foo interface exports the bindings foo1, foo2 and foo3". when i reload it goes to things that exist outside the actor with unique names with the limited input/ output
23:43:30 <oerjan> JWinslow23: irc lines have a < 510 byte limit (which includes some stuff other than the message.)
23:43:50 <Bike> do some compression!
23:44:15 <oerjan> JWinslow23: fungot's ^str command is to get around that, although it's awkward to use.
23:44:15 <fungot> oerjan: though it would be something wrong otherwise. that's how i roll.
23:46:05 <Bike> ^bf [,>][<]>[.>][<]>[.>]!test
23:46:55 <Bike> fungot, buddy, speak to me.
23:46:55 <fungot> Bike: you can do computation with syntax-rules using cps or using other macros ( or non-hygienic low-level macros) wouldn't you have to on solaris
23:47:24 <Bike> i fail to see the connection between Solaris and computation at macroexpansion time, fungot.
23:47:25 <fungot> Bike: i was just busy planning lea's demise of laidback because of its cgi infrastructure. i'm more than halfway through this, i'll be willing to change, and so
23:47:50 <Bike> oh, i see, no output for me.
23:47:52 <fungot> output for me.<CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
23:48:02 <Bike> ^bf ,[,>][<]>[.>][<]>[.>]!test
23:48:12 <Bike> i'm so bad at this.
23:48:44 <kmc> fungot: fungot
23:48:45 <fungot> kmc: one more thing cl stores in symbols, right? but computing the hash value in the middle of interviewing for a job right now,
23:48:49 <oerjan> seems like it doesn't read past the NUL
23:49:03 <Bike> fungot's definitely getting that job
23:49:03 <fungot> Bike: makes it too easy to spot
23:49:09 <oerjan> even if forced to use ,
23:49:32 <kmc> fungot: are you an ascomycete or a basidiomycete
23:49:32 <fungot> kmc: but i already wrote to marc about it.
23:49:36 <Bike> i just want something that reads to newline and then prints it twice.
23:49:39 <fungot> u an ascomycete or a basidiomycete ...out of time!
23:49:52 <kmc> wait so... input is from the last message?
23:50:12 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,[.,]+]
23:50:14 <Bike> somebody exploit this to find fizzie's porn stash
23:50:53 <oerjan> kmc: or rather, from the last message to go beyond the space taken by the ^bf message
23:51:11 <kmc> !bf_txtgen ACTION smacks kmc
23:51:16 <EgoBot> 181 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++>++>++++++++<<<<-]>>-----.++.<.>++++++.++++++.-.>++++.>+++.------.<<+++++++++++++++++++.++.++++++++.++++++++.>.>--.++.----------.<----------------------. [296]
23:51:30 <kmc> ^bf +.>++++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++>++>++++++++<<<<-]>>-----.++.<.>++++++.++++++.-.>++++.>+++.------.<<+++++++++++++++++++.++.++++++++.++++++++.>.>--.++.----------.<----------------------.>[-]+.
23:51:38 <kmc> life is beautiful
23:51:52 <Bike> beautiful and smacktacular
23:53:56 <kmc> why did it output a trailing period
23:53:57 <Bike> ^bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]!test
23:54:09 <Bike> kmc: !bf_txtgen apparently always appends a period.
23:54:31 <kmc> icy hot stuntaz
23:54:37 <Bike> ^bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]>[.>]!test
23:54:52 <Bike> ^bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]>[.>]!,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]>[.>]!
23:54:53 <fungot> ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]>[.>]!,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]>[.>]!
23:55:02 <Bike> JWinslow23: (lol)
23:55:12 <oerjan> Bike: no, it appends a newline, which fungot turns into a period.
23:55:12 <fungot> oerjan: or we could do it rici's way but then i have an idea for a programming language of .net". f includes extensions for working across languages, and accepts everything from c++ to pythong to perl to whatever else can tie into it.
23:55:20 <Bike> oerjan: whichever!
23:55:58 <Bike> who runs EgoBot anyway, i could yell at them slash ask about txtgen's algorithm.
23:56:20 <kmc> !bf_txtgen QUIT seeya suckers
23:56:22 <EgoBot> 192 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>++++++.++++.>--.+++++++++++.>>++.<-----.<<++++++++++++++++..>>++++++.<+++++++++++++.>>.<------.++.<++.++++++++.<.>>---.+.>----------------------. [687]
23:56:43 <kmc> ^bf +++++++++++++.---.>+++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>++++++.++++.>--.+++++++++++.>>++.<-----.<<++++++++++++++++..>>++++++.<+++++++++++++.>>.<------.++.<++.++++++++.<.>>---.+.>----------------------.
23:57:26 <oerjan> Bike: it's not txtgen's fault, EgoBot just doesn't strip the final newline from input to commands, while fungot does.
23:57:26 <fungot> oerjan: hello world!"? if so, sorry, haha. i was talking about
23:57:26 <Bike> JWinslow23: i meant, i wrote a "quine".
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23:57:51 <oerjan> Bike: also you can use `interp bf_txtgen on HackEgo
23:57:53 <Bike> oerjan: i'm willing to shift my blame to egobot.
23:58:00 <oerjan> `interp bf_txtgen test
23:58:12 <HackEgo> 54 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>><<<<-]>-.>---.<-.+. [454]
23:58:22 <Bike> `run which interp
23:58:30 <oerjan> i think hat didn't append the newline
23:58:34 <Bike> `run file $(which interp)
23:58:36 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/interp: POSIX shell script text executable
23:58:45 <Bike> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>><<<<-]>-.>---.<-.+.
23:58:53 <Bike> oerjan to the rescue.
23:59:15 <Bike> `run cat $(which interp)
23:59:17 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
23:59:22 <oerjan> Bike: i've used `interp bf_txtgen to generate the long bf program for fungot's ^prefixes
23:59:23 <fungot> oerjan: phew! i did, too) has " fnord format fnord".
23:59:32 <Bike> indeed, fungot
23:59:33 <fungot> Bike: what is the egobot?! sounds great though, must be one of the awful limitations of emacs is that it hinder the absorption of some b fnord and can lead to severe health problems.
23:59:42 <oerjan> i think i had to fix a bug in it to make it work
23:59:44 <Bike> `file ibin/bf_txtgen
23:59:46 <HackEgo> ibin/bf_txtgen: Bourne-Again shell script text executable
23:59:57 <Bike> `cat ibin/bf_txtgen
00:00:01 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ . lib/interp \ cd interps/bf_txtgen \ \ get_arg \ java textgen -g 1000 -i "$ARG_FILE" | tail -n 2 | head -n 1 \ clean_arg
00:00:11 <JWinslow23> All I got so far is ++++++++++[>++++>++++>++++++>++++++>+++++++++>+++++++++>+++++<<<<<<<-]>+++..........>+++++>>++>+.<.<<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.<<<......>>>.<<<......>>>.<<<.........>>>.<<<..........>>>.<<<.....>>.......<.>>>>+++.<<.<<<...>>>>>>----..........
00:00:21 <Bike> the level of indirection here is astounding and bewildering.
00:01:02 <JWinslow23> I have no idea how any quines were ever made in this language!
00:01:10 <Bike> JWinslow23: you could use mine, prepended with a fixed point of txtgen (w/o the outputs)
00:01:20 <Bike> well, some kind of txtgen, anyway, not this one.
00:01:26 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:01:51 <JWinslow23> There will come a time where it will be done.
00:02:06 <Bike> JWinslow23: you could also
00:02:34 <JWinslow23> Any null program is automatically a quine!
00:02:36 <myname> cheating is part of the game
00:02:45 <myname> JWinslow23: not in java
00:02:57 <Bike> i don't think the empty program is valid java.
00:03:16 <myname> that's not object oriented!
00:03:19 <Bike> in haskell the empty program is i think not a quine.
00:03:25 <Bike> > -- dunno if this even works.
00:03:26 <lambdabot> not an expression: `-- dunno if this even works.'
00:03:34 <Bike> not what i expected.
00:03:54 <Bike> i shouldn't have asked.
00:03:57 <JWinslow23> >+++++>+++>+++>+++++>+++>+++>+++++>++++++>+>++>+++>++++>++++>+++>+++>+++++>+>+ >++++>+++++++>+>+++++>+>+>+++++>++++++>+++>+++>++>+>+>++++>++++++>++++>++++>+++ >+++++>+++>+++>++++>++>+>+>+>+>++>++>++>+>+>++>+>+>++++++>++++++>+>+>++++++ >++++++>+>+>+>+++++>++++++>+>+++++>+++>+++>++++>++>+>+>++>+>+>++>++>+>+>++>++>+ >+>+>+>++>+>+>+>++++>++>++>+>+++++>++++++>+++>+++>+++>+++>+++>+++>++>+>+>+>+>++ >+>+>++++>+++>+++>+++>+++++>+>+++++>++
00:04:26 <Bike> well, it doesn't output anything...
00:05:03 <myname> JWinslow23: what should that do?
00:05:12 <oerjan> Bike: the java textgen is not Gregor's program, he just wrote a wrapper around to run it using EgoBot's command api, which `interp invokes (at least in HackEgo)
00:05:41 <Bike> wait, wait, so
00:05:50 <Bike> the java program is also a wrapper? is that what i'm hearing here.
00:06:15 <myname> a bash script calling another script calling a java programm calling the real thing?
00:06:22 <myname> boy, that's indirection
00:06:34 <JWinslow23> ^bf >+++++>+++>+++>+++++>+++>+++>+++++>++++++>+>++>+++>++++>++++>+++>+++>+++++>+>+>++++>+++++++>+>+++++>+>+>+++++>++++++>+++>+++>++>+>+>++++>++++++>++++>++++>+++>+++++>+++>+++>++++>++>+>+>+>+>++>++>++>+>+>++>+>+>++++++>++++++>+>+>++++++>++++++>+>+>+>+++++>++++++>+>+++++>+++>+++>++++>++>+>+>++>+>+>++>++>+>+>++>++>+>+>+>+>++>+>+>+>++++>++>++>+>+++++>++++++>+++>+++>+++>+++>+++>+++>++>+>+>+>+>++>+>+>++++>+++>+++>+++>+++++>+>+++++>+++
00:06:44 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:06:47 <Gregor> myname: ITYM "abstraction"
00:06:48 <myname> JWinslow23: that doesn't output anything
00:06:52 <Bike> myname: don't forget the UML part. pretty awesome.
00:07:07 <oerjan> JWinslow23: you realize you are hitting the irc line limit, right?
00:07:20 <ais523> is that lost kingdoms, by any chance?
00:07:37 <ais523> it does look a bit like a quine
00:07:41 <ais523> but it's getting cut off
00:07:50 <JWinslow23> ais523, where would I find a copy of that Lost Kingdom thing?
00:08:40 <oerjan> JWinslow23: it looks like the beginning "make a representation of the final part of the program on the tape" of a quine, but it's missing the actual final part that would print both it and the final part.
00:08:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 24.0/20130910160258]).
00:09:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:09:26 <oerjan> i recall reading recently someone saying that lost kingdom was hard to find.
00:09:29 <ais523> JWinslow23: seems to be at http://web.archive.org/web/20111031121638/http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html
00:09:58 <Bike> "this Brainfuck edition is significantly larger at 2.08Mb" ha.
00:10:20 -!- Taneb has joined.
00:10:40 <ais523> JWinslow23: yeah, it is
00:11:29 <oerjan> Bike: i don't know if the java program is a wrapper, that's not what i meant anyhow.
00:11:56 <kmc> Bike: the empty file is not a valid Haskell program because it doesn't define 'main'
00:12:36 <oerjan> JWinslow23: i am somewhat doubtful that you can fit a bf quine into a single irc line, because it's so hard to setup data compactly in bf.
00:13:02 <kmc> clearly we need an algorithm which compresses Brainfuck using the whole of the Universal Character Set
00:13:09 <kmc> there are probably five of those on the wiki already
00:13:42 <Bike> the irc length limit is by character, right? bet you could fit a lot of bits in there...
00:13:43 <oerjan> and being clever means expanding the part of the program that is making the decoding
00:14:06 <kmc> oerjan: when I was writing a 446-byte real mode demo I concluded that packers weren't worth it for this reason
00:14:06 <oerjan> Bike: now decode those bits without making the program even huger.
00:14:13 <kmc> but I may have been insufficiently clever with my packers
00:14:27 <kmc> real mode x86 code is reasonably compact, especially if it's written by hand to be compact
00:14:54 <Bike> oh, i just meant, using a bf that use three bit groups for commands, instead of characters.
00:15:00 <Bike> so a 24-bit character could have eight commands.
00:15:09 <kmc> too bad unicode characters are only 20.1 bits
00:16:06 <ion> > logBase 2 . fromIntegral . ord $ maxBound
00:16:33 <oerjan> Bike: the problem with trying to cheat the irc length limit with bits is that bf ignores all but it's 8 ascii command values
00:16:52 <Bike> yes i'm not talking about ^bf!
00:17:39 <ion> Just think about how much bandwidth is wasted globally from the unused 0.91 bits.
00:18:12 <Bike> is 20.087 bits enough to encode all of tungusic, hieroglyphs, and the lingua ignota? important
00:20:33 <JWinslow23> I saw Finally Taking Over The World. It was a good game, especially since it was written by hand.
00:21:01 <oerjan> > var $ \s -> s ++ show s "> var $ \\s -> s ++ show s "
00:21:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0] -> [a0]'
00:21:16 <kmc> how about all the characters from the voynich manuscript
00:21:22 <kmc> that would be great
00:21:32 <oerjan> > var $ (\s -> s ++ show s) "> var $ (\\s -> s ++ show s) "
00:21:33 <lambdabot> > var $ (\s -> s ++ show s) "> var $ (\\s -> s ++ show s) "
00:21:48 <kmc> U+2F739 VOYNICH SCRIPT SQUIGGLY THING THAT LOOKS KINDA LIKE AN EIGHT, I GUESS
00:22:18 <kmc> apparently it was transcribed to punched cards in 1940.
00:22:52 <oerjan> JWinslow23: um i'm pretty sure `? `? existed before you started.
00:23:11 <oerjan> and did something approximately like that
00:23:28 <ais523> no, Wierd's a different language entirely
00:23:55 <lambdabot> http://www.damnyouautocorrect.com/
00:23:55 <lambdabot> Title: Damn You Auto Correct! » Funny iPhone Fails and Autocorrect Horror Stories
00:24:07 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Voynich_Alphabet
00:24:20 <ais523> now I'm trying to think up a shell oneliner quine that prepends `run to itself
00:25:38 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Voynich_manuscript_bathtub2_example_78r_cropped.jpg
00:26:11 <kmc> "A dense continuous text interspersed with figures, mostly showing small naked women, some wearing crowns, bathing in pools or tubs connected by an elaborate network of pipes, some of them strongly reminiscent of body organs"
00:26:40 <oerjan> JWinslow23: actually `? `? did something different. `? quine did something similar.
00:27:09 <HackEgo> Humphrey Bogart is a cousin to Lady Di.
00:27:59 <elliott> voynich creeps me the fuck out :(
00:31:53 <oerjan> `learn NIMBY : Not in my backyard.
00:32:13 <oerjan> i reverted the quine mess and the broken humphrey.
00:32:42 <kmc> sorry elliott
00:33:08 -!- JWinslow23 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
00:42:47 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ / "$*" /' bin/ReLcOmE
00:43:16 <oerjan> `WeLcOmE bad_shell_programmers
00:43:21 <HackEgo> BaD_ShElL_PrOgRaMmErS: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
00:43:27 <oerjan> `ReLcOmE bad_shell_programmers
00:43:30 <HackEgo> BaD_ShElL_PrOgRaMmErS: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
00:44:55 <oerjan> @tell nortti It might be an idea to actually test commands you add to HackEgo.
00:50:06 <Taneb> elliott, go to bed it's like 2 am
00:51:03 <Taneb> oerjan, go to bed it's like 3 am
00:51:25 <Taneb> I think I am lashing out to cope with the fact that my sleep and food schedules have pretty much disappeared
00:51:28 <oerjan> elliott: btw myndzi already ignores HackEgo.
00:51:49 <oerjan> Taneb: you mean i shouldn't have made that bet?
00:52:06 <oerjan> `pastlog bet.*taneb.*schedule
00:52:36 <Koen__> Taneb: don't you have work or studies to force-schedule you?
00:52:41 <oerjan> `pastlog bet.*taneb.*schedule
00:52:45 <Taneb> Koen__, not till Monday
00:52:55 <ais523> `run q=`printf \\\\x27`; b=`printf \\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5cx`; g=`printf \\\\x60`; s=`printf \\\\x3b`; d=`printf \\\\x24`; y='${g}run q=${g}printf ${b}27$g$s b=${g}printf ${b}5c${b}5c${b}5c${b}5cx$g$s g=${g}printf ${b}60$g$s s=${g}printf ${b}3b$g$s d=${g}printf ${b}24$g$s y=$q$y$q$s eval echo ${d}y'; eval echo $y
00:52:55 <HackEgo> 2013-10-02.txt:00:38:10: <oerjan> shall we have a betting pool of how soon before Taneb's sleep schedule unravels
00:52:56 <HackEgo> `run q=`printf \\\\x27`; b=`printf \\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5cx`; g=`printf \\\\x60`; s=`printf \\\\x3b`; d=`printf \\\\x24`; y='${g}run q=${g}printf ${b}27$g$s b=${g}printf ${b}5c${b}5c${b}5c${b}5cx$g$s g=${g}printf ${b}60$g$s s=${g}printf ${b}3b$g$s d=${g}printf ${b}24$g$s y=$q$y$q$s eval echo ${d}y'; eval echo $y
00:53:19 * oerjan swats ais523 for burying his `pastlog -----###
00:53:21 <ais523> it's not aiming to be obfuscated or unclear in any way, it's aiming to be a by-the-book quine
00:53:23 <Taneb> oerjan, my sleep schedule had already unraveled about two days before that
00:53:38 <ais523> huh, jwinslow23 isn't even here any more, so I can't show em
00:53:48 <myname> ais523: aren't quines with eval cheating?
00:53:59 <ais523> myname: only if they read their own source code
00:54:15 <ais523> actually, I don't think eval can be used to cheat unless you combine it with some other cheating method anyway
00:54:17 <oerjan> Taneb: anyway if i were to go to bed now i would need some knockout drug.
00:54:33 <ais523> I'm just using the variable definitions + eval as a method of defining a custom escaping mechanism
00:54:37 <Taneb> I'm going to try and regain my sleep schedule, brb
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00:54:42 <ais523> because I wanted to do it with only bash builtins
00:55:40 <oerjan> `run q=`printf \\\\x27`; b=`printf
00:55:40 <oerjan> \\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5cx`; g=`printf \\\\x60`; s=`printf
00:55:40 <oerjan> \\\\x3b`; d=`printf \\\\x24`; y='${g}run q=${g}printf
00:55:40 <oerjan> ${b}27$g$s b=${g}printf ${b}5c${b}5c${b}5c${b}5cx$g$s
00:55:40 <oerjan> g=${g}printf ${b}60$g$s s=${g}printf ${b}3b$g$s d=${g}printf
00:55:42 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
00:55:42 <oerjan> ${b}24$g$s y=$q$y$q$s eval echo ${d}y'; eval echo $y
00:56:46 <oerjan> thank you irssi, the one time i _wanted_ your line joining to work...
00:57:11 <oerjan> `run q=`printf \\\\x27`; b=`printf \\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5cx`; g=`printf \\\\x60`; s=`printf \\\\x3b`; d=`printf \\\\x24`; y='${g}run q=${g}printf ${b}27$g$s b=${g}printf ${b}5c${b}5c${b}5c${b}5cx$g$s g=${g}printf ${b}60$g$s s=${g}printf ${b}3b$g$s d=${g}printf ${b}24$g$s y=$q$y$q$s eval echo ${d}y'; eval echo $y
00:57:13 <HackEgo> `run q=`printf \\\\x27`; b=`printf \\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5c\\\\x5cx`; g=`printf \\\\x60`; s=`printf \\\\x3b`; d=`printf \\\\x24`; y='${g}run q=${g}printf ${b}27$g$s b=${g}printf ${b}5c${b}5c${b}5c${b}5cx$g$s g=${g}printf ${b}60$g$s s=${g}printf ${b}3b$g$s d=${g}printf ${b}24$g$s y=$q$y$q$s eval echo ${d}y'; eval echo $y
00:57:40 <ais523> oerjan: is that just my quine, or did you change it a bit?
00:58:01 <oerjan> that's the output of your quine. i just wanted to check it _hadn't_ changed :P
00:59:22 <ais523> it's quite hard to distinguish a quine from its output
00:59:38 <ais523> actually, an earlier almost-working version had the eval and echo backwards /inside/ the quotes
00:59:43 <ais523> and it took me a while to spot what was wrong
00:59:57 <ais523> I'm almost positive that shorter bash quines exist, anyway
01:00:10 <ais523> probably involving defining functions
01:00:21 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 284 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 285 ? 00:00:00 cat
01:00:31 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 285 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 286 ? 00:00:00 cat
01:00:39 <ais523> I was hoping for completely different PIDs
01:00:53 <oerjan> i think it's sh, not bash, which is why i was worried about your quine
01:01:26 <oerjan> that HackEgo /bin/sh thing has some awful bash inconsistencies.
01:01:37 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 284 ? 00:00:00 bash \ 285 ? 00:00:00 cat \ 287 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 288 ? 00:00:00 tail
01:02:47 <ais523> oerjan: it'd work fine in sh too
01:02:51 <ais523> just printf isn't a builtin in sh
01:02:57 <ais523> so it wouldn't be done entirely with builtins
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03:18:52 <elliott> ais523: we have a {{wayback}} template, by the way
03:19:05 <ais523> elliott: I thought we did
03:19:09 <ais523> but it has to link to an older version than the latest
03:19:13 <ais523> wasn't sure if that was doable
03:19:13 <elliott> ais523: it supports that :)
03:19:16 <ais523> so I just copy-pasted the URL
03:19:30 <ais523> and figured that someone would correct me if they wanted to (only I thought it'd be oerjan not you)
03:19:58 <elliott> oerjan can do the actual edit.
03:33:06 <Bike> I think there are too many people in computers just for the money. It's a damn shame that computers are “respected” now. ☯89MAR
03:52:42 <oerjan> Bike: is that form 1989?
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04:28:44 <kmc> kids / lawn
04:30:32 <Bike> it's nice to know that these people predate, like, me.
04:31:43 <oerjan> wouldn't you rather prefer not to be predated upon
04:31:44 <kmc> I on the other hand was a whole year old in March '89
04:31:58 <Bike> oerjan: good point
04:38:53 <zzo38> What is it called if you use a pastebin or tiny URL service to write it down on a small paper to recover it later (for your own use)?
04:45:22 <kmc> zzo38: cloud computing
04:46:23 <zzo38> kmc: I mean this specific instance (and it doesn't contain anything private/secret)
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05:45:39 <elliott> fizzie: someone wants to know if you are going to NIPS
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07:27:55 <fizzie> elliott: I'm not. I think some colleagues are.
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07:42:32 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I can't believe someone hasn't noticed that bug earlier, if it has been there. Maybe my latest bugfix somehow broke that.
07:44:26 <Bike> the brainfuckery?
07:46:26 <fizzie> Sadly, I no longer understand the fix.
07:48:58 <fizzie> It's supposed to put a 0 after the isolated command options, though.
07:49:09 <fizzie> It's even done with STRN's "P", which should make that foolproof.
07:52:42 <fizzie> 123456789012345678901234567890
07:52:47 <fizzie> 123456789012345678901234567890
07:53:27 <fizzie> Maybe it needs to do something to the input line pointer when there is no !.
07:55:04 <fizzie> Oh, I think I see what happens.
07:56:03 <fizzie> It's supposed to put a reference to the \0 at the end of the message when there is no !, but I think it has an off-by-one error, because it runs the same 1+ that bumps the number to one past the !.
07:56:11 <fizzie> Well, that's an easy fix.
07:57:29 <fizzie> 123456789012345678901234567890
07:59:22 <fizzie> Fix committed, for all you other fungot operators.
07:59:22 <fungot> fizzie: almost as sluggish as my brain right now.)
07:59:44 <fizzie> fungot: Come now, it was just two more instructions and it's even executed only for a ^bf.
07:59:44 <fungot> fizzie: the ' repl orientation' is standard in " sessions" in servlets.
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10:02:15 <ais523> ticket changed: * priority: minor => critical
10:02:31 <ais523> I guess I favour priority inheritance as my method to solve priority inversions on my bug tracker
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10:04:39 <Taneb> Oh wow I'm getting some players together and I'm gonna DM a game of Diana: Warrior Princess
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13:46:07 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, one of my flatmates has taught me a bit more KSP
13:53:46 <Vorpal> Well this is interesting, vlc is only displaying the red channel when playing mp4... I'll test some other video players.
13:55:05 <Vorpal> OKAY!? mplayer is displaying the red and the blue channel, but nothing else
13:56:55 <Vorpal> Okay it is the xv backend that is broken, using opengl + software decoding works...
13:59:10 <Vorpal> I suspect the GPU drivers, they are somewhat recently updated
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14:40:55 <fizzie> If VLC was displaying red and mplayer blue and green, maybe you could've gotten a working video by translucently composing VLC and mplayer on top of each other.
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14:55:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, but mplayer was red and blue though
14:55:47 <Vorpal> Anyway, switching the backend from xvideo to opengl worked
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15:03:29 <fizzie> Also, a sunset: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130929-sunset.jpg
15:03:35 <fizzie> (We've been sorting the digital pile of photos accumulated over the summer, to show friends and relatives; hence this and the flower before.)
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15:19:12 <fizzie> By writing "`? quine" in wisdom/quine, presumably.
15:19:41 <JWinslow23> I only got it to say "quine `? quine".
15:20:12 <Bike> `cat wisdom/quine
15:20:19 <fizzie> You can get it to say things that don't being with the word itself by manipulating files in wisdom/ directly.
15:20:56 <fizzie> (It's just `learn that can't do it.)
15:21:06 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/reversal: No such file or directory
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15:22:16 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:22:57 <Bike> `run echo lasrever > wisdom/reversal
15:23:00 <Bike> it's just linux.
15:24:08 <fizzie> Linux does run on various kinds of PCs.
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15:40:27 <fizzie> Only 32% of wisdom entries begin with the entry name.
17:02:03 <Gregor> fizzie: Wow, really? X-D
17:02:10 <Gregor> Makes `learn seem rather silly.
17:08:23 <fizzie> Disclaimer: statistic is an approximation generated with a cd wisdom; find . -type f | cut -c 3- | while read f; do if head -c ${#f} -- "$f" | grep -qF -- "$f"; then echo yes; else echo no; fi; done | sort | uniq -c except locally because it was timing out.
17:08:57 <fizzie> (It was correct for a couple of spot-checked entries, but could have issues.)
17:09:50 <fizzie> Seems it doesn't do lowercasing correctly.
17:10:25 <fizzie> 63% are `learn-compatible, after correcting for that.
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17:24:21 <HackEgo> bc ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
17:25:29 <HackEgo> Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
17:26:14 <HackEgo> shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
17:27:06 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
17:27:50 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
17:28:18 <olsner> I wonder if "Ramen noodles are a type of sewing from the original trees." is a faithful translation or simply poorly translated by google
17:28:26 <HackEgo> \ Piet is a really colorful programming language.
17:28:53 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
17:29:27 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:30:31 <HackEgo> hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ...
17:31:04 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs
17:31:11 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs
17:31:21 <Bike> you know, the wisdom is mostly in the pdf
17:31:25 <Bike> you don't need to take up the channe
17:31:37 <Bike> (or you could use pms of course)
17:34:25 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
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17:40:46 <Sgeo> http://code.divshot.com/geo-bootstrap/#
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17:46:17 <zzo38> Did you add some `? file for other esolangs such as Underload and Checkout? Perhaps also such thing as FurryScript?
17:48:23 <zzo38> Also add P.D.Q Bach is INTERCAL of Baroque music.
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18:26:46 <fizzie> "There’s one more magic control key that switches your whole reality. This is ^W, which switches between the ships in a pier. Do you have multiple ships in your pier? Sure - you still have your old submarine."
18:26:50 <fizzie> It's all so very strange.
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19:52:40 <fizzie> `learn wecome in pece.
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19:55:38 <fizzie> It's just a "whimsical" acknowledgement from `learn.
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20:20:25 <kmc> UVB-76, UVB-76. 75-59-75-59. 39-52-53-58. 5-5-2-5. Konstantin-1-9-0-9-0-8-9-8-Tatiana-Oksana-Anna-Elena-Pavel-Schuka. Konstantin 8-4. 9-7-5-5-9-Tatiana. Anna Larisa Uliyana-9-4-1-4-3-4-8
20:21:52 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UVB-76
20:25:37 <kmc> i like this numbers station because it transmits an annoying buzz 24/7 but apparently this is generated by having a microphone in the room and a buzzing box nearby
20:31:01 <kmc> the buzzing is probably just to ensure the frequency is always available by annoying anyone else who tries to use it
20:32:21 <kmc> but also it occurred to me that an air gap would be desirable if you're connecting cryptographic equipment to a radio transmitter
20:32:49 <elliott> kmc: hey, I was just reading about that a few weeks ago!
20:33:45 <olsner> if I were a plain russian scientist measuring stuff in the ionosphere with a buzzer I'd probably be thrilled about all the myth surrounding that thing
20:34:06 <kmc> you can ask some HAARP scientists about that
20:35:10 <kmc> Wikipedia has a "see also" from UVB-76 to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand_(nuclear_war) which I'm not sure is justifed by any evidence, but is a creepy connection to draw anyway
20:35:12 <fizzie> Reading about Urbit reminded me of elliott somewhat.
20:35:49 <elliott> fizzie: I read the original Urbit stuff years ago, so yeah.
20:36:03 <elliott> it's not quite crazy enough though :(
20:36:23 <fizzie> It seemed quite crazy, absolutely speaking.
20:39:07 <kmc> "At DEFCON 2 or higher, the Looking Glass pilot and co-pilot were both required to wear an eye patch, retrieved from their Emergency War Order (EWO) kit. In the event of a surprise blinding flash from a nuclear detonation, the eye patch would prevent blindness in the covered eye, thus enabling them to see in at least one eye and continue flying."
20:39:09 <Sgeo> "After the prelude, there is usually an announcement of the number of number-groups in the message, the page to be used from the one-time pad, or other pertinent information. "
20:39:35 <Sgeo> They actually say on those things "Use page 12 of the one-time pad"? Or is the OTP page thing just a guess?
20:40:05 <kmc> so it's basically "in case of nuclear war, fire missiles using remaining eye"
20:40:20 <kmc> Sgeo: I think it's a guess
20:40:29 <olsner> I got the impression that the thing itself (urbit) is significantly less crazy than the descriptions of it
20:41:05 <fizzie> (In related news, I like how github's "number of commits" splines in a single-week graph go below 0 when there's something non-zero next to two consecutive zeros.
20:41:11 <kmc> Sgeo: have you heard the Conet Project recordings: https://ia600500.us.archive.org/12/items/ird059/
20:41:25 <fizzie> I'm sure the nice curvy lines are pretty, but the interpolation makes no sense.
20:42:04 <Sgeo> I am suddenly less certain that I am not on drugs
20:44:47 <kmc> `addquote <Sgeo> I am suddenly less certain that I am not on drugs
20:44:51 <HackEgo> 1116) <Sgeo> I am suddenly less certain that I am not on drugs
20:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> why are intelligent organisations so obsessed with making their secret transmissions sound creepy
20:46:32 <olsner> kmc: I like the fact that someone has thought that stuff through and come up with procedures for it (re looking glass pilots)
20:48:06 <olsner> (the low-techness of the eye patch is a nice bonus, but apparently they replaced them with fancy goggles later)
20:48:51 <kmc> i blame the fancy goggle industrial complex
20:48:55 <kmc> http://uvb-76.net/p/triangulation.html this map looks pretty cool.
20:49:57 <kmc> wow apparently there is a Freenode channel about UVB-76 and numbers stations generally
20:51:13 <fizzie> Heh, the Buzzer is nicely audible over that WebSDR thing.
20:53:35 <kmc> Name : UVB-76
20:53:35 <kmc> Genre : Ambient, Russian, Experimental
20:59:16 <fizzie> (A client-side morse decoder is one thing they should maybe add to WebSDR for casual users.)
20:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> don't you wish the world was like the mercator projection
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21:05:35 <kmc> in DEFCON the missiles look like they're curving up into the atmosphere but they actually curve north on the rectangular map
21:05:42 <kmc> so it's better to put your antimissile stations in the north
21:06:07 <kmc> but really if you're not playing US vs USSR on a polar map then wtf are you doing
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21:49:24 <lambdabot> fizzie said 14h 6m 51s ago: I can't believe someone hasn't noticed that bug earlier, if it has been there. Maybe my latest bugfix somehow broke that.
21:51:31 <fizzie> I went and fixed that thing.
21:51:46 <fizzie> It didn't seem to be related to the earlier fix.
21:52:29 <fizzie> Possibly people had just not tried input without ! all that much.
21:54:53 <oerjan> elliott: ^bf without ! would use parts of previous messages as input
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22:02:04 <fizzie> Specifically, the part that was supposed to set the bf input data index to point at the 0 at the end of the ^bf command instead set it to one past that zero. (Where there was the tail end of whatever previous message longer than the command was.)
22:13:01 <oerjan> @tell <Taneb> Oh wow I'm getting some players together and I'm gonna DM a game of Diana: Warrior Princess <-- ooh
22:13:40 <oerjan> i've never played that, but it's one of the most hilarious tabletop RPG concepts i've heard of
22:15:47 <Koen_> okay, my When interpreter can succesfuly execute a previously parsed When program
22:16:04 <Koen_> learning to use ocamllex and ocamlyacc is a task for another day
22:18:07 <Koen_> oerjan: is your Bag language significantly different than the simple "fractran with token multisets substituted for prime decompositions" it originally was?
22:18:27 <Koen_> subsidiary question, is any version of Bag implemented?
22:21:15 <oerjan> to the second question, that is.
22:21:51 <oerjan> whenever i think about implementing it, i get hung up in how to split up actual numbers given.
22:23:14 <oerjan> i have this clever algorithm which doesn't need to actually prime factor, but i'm not sure if it's efficient if there are a lot of numbers.
22:23:30 <oerjan> and then i procrastinate before even getting to implement that part.
22:23:57 <Koen_> numbers? prime factors? so there not just token lists?
22:24:09 <oerjan> Koen_: you can use either tokens or numbers freely.
22:24:18 <Koen_> s/there/they're :(
22:24:50 <Koen_> can you use both simultaneously?
22:25:01 <Koen_> as in multiplying numbers by token lists
22:25:28 <oerjan> and it's ideally supposed to treat numbers effectively as if they were factored, but then i thought "what is someone puts in an RSA public key to be annoying" and then i thought up my unimplemented algorithm.
22:26:55 <Koen_> oh, you don't need to actually prime factor every number, you just need to check if n is a multiple of the denominator, right?
22:27:18 <oerjan> (because you cannot expect to able to factor an RSA public key in general)
22:27:45 <Koen_> what if I'm very patient
22:28:01 <oerjan> Koen_: well it's supposed to still be efficient if a huge prime gets raised to a large power
22:28:40 <oerjan> as in, it should handle things that are too large as ordinary bignums
22:28:45 <Koen_> I assume you don't need to actually compute the result of the multiplication
22:29:08 <Koen_> so numbers are hybrids, half-factored, half-notfactored
22:29:20 <oerjan> anyway my algorith is a factorization algorithm, it's just not a _prime_ factorization algorithm.
22:29:44 <oerjan> it factorizes numbers "enough"
22:29:49 * Koen_ has no idea what the subtle difference is
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22:30:40 <JWinslow23> Hi, I want to code a text adventure of my own in BF. Anyone know how to do that (preferably by hand)?
22:30:45 <Koen_> you can't factor *more* than down to prime decomposition, and factoring less is just "going half through with prime factoring"
22:31:05 <kmc> JWinslow23: it's like you're asking us what tools to use and simultaneously saying you don't want to use any tools
22:31:23 <oerjan> Koen_: basically say you have this huge RSA public key that is pq for a large number. if no part of the program has a different number of p's and q's then you don't _need_ to factor those separately.
22:31:27 <JWinslow23> Sorry, but Taking Over The World was written by hand!
22:31:41 <JWinslow23> Give me tools if you can find any, OK?
22:31:47 <oerjan> because everything is of the form (pq)^n * things not containing p or q
22:32:38 <Koen_> JWinslow23: have you ever written a text adventure?
22:33:08 <oerjan> but if you _do_ have both pq and pq^2 say, in the program, then my algorithm can split them up.
22:33:44 <Koen_> don't you think it would be more interesting to write a *regular* text adventure first, then only move on to writing a text adventure using brainfuck?
22:34:20 <Koen_> you're welcome, I guess
22:34:27 <oerjan> (first it notices that gcd(pq,pq^2) = pq, and then that pq^2 / pq = q, so now you have q.)
22:35:04 <oerjan> and then everything gets hideously complicated if there are lots of factors to split out.
22:36:01 <JWinslow23> So, I will tell you when the text adventure is done. Until then, I'm out!
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22:36:34 <Koen_> I think I'm gonna write a Bag interpreter that only accept token multisets
22:37:07 <oerjan> i guess i cannot stop you. unless i nuke the eiffel tower.
22:37:37 <Koen_> well, if you're warning me first, that kinda ruins the point
22:37:47 <oerjan> alternatively you could just handle small numbers.
22:37:57 <Koen_> yes, that's another possibility
22:40:41 <zzo38> What text adventure game do you want to write?
22:40:49 <Koen_> zzo38: I'm afraid he's left
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22:50:41 <kmc> 'He quotes Zheleznyakov on the purpose of Perimeter being "to cool down all these hotheads and extremists. No matter what was going to happen, there still would be revenge."'
22:52:19 <kmc> I don't know what's scarier, the fact that these people thought a robot programmed to automatically kill everyone on the planet would have a calming effect, or the possibility that they were right
22:53:50 <elliott> only semi-automatic, afaik?
22:53:53 <zzo38> Could you use two channels on 8253 PIT with the output of one connected to the gate of another, to make more kind of square waves and other stuff output?
22:54:05 <Koen_> isn't that what cold war was all about?
22:55:07 <oerjan> all that is needed to thwart that scheme is a genuine omnicidal maniac.
22:55:09 <kmc> it also says something about the human psyche that we place a high value on revenge even if it comes after we and everyone we know are dead
22:55:23 <kmc> zzo38: that's a cool idea
22:55:28 <kmc> you could make a musical instrument out of a PIT
22:56:49 <kmc> it'd be fun to list the top 250 channels on Freenode and then cluster them based on shared membership
22:56:52 <kmc> i wonder if someone has done this
23:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, er, isn't the point more the prospect of revenge?
23:02:10 <Sgeo> Is Perimeter that huge doomsday ship that was proposed but rejected?
23:02:13 <Sgeo> Or is that something else?
23:02:56 <kmc> well the idea here is that human commanders who detect a (possibly false) enemy launch will be less likely to retaliate immediately if they know that Perimeter / Dead Hand will avenge them after their deaths
23:03:26 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: no, it was a Russian thing
23:03:43 <kmc> so he's arguing that it would have a calming effect on their own commanders, in addition to detering the enemy
23:03:46 <kmc> which is interesting
23:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> looking for Sgeo's thing, found this http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/09/soviet-doomsday/
23:05:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how it makes absolutely no effort to distinguish between doctor strangelove's doomsday device and the real one
23:10:50 <Taneb> How do I make at execute a command as root?
23:12:04 <kmc> you could run 'at' as root
23:12:14 <kmc> or your command could be 'sudo whatever' assuming you have nopasswd sudo
23:14:17 <Taneb> (I'm only doing this to turn my computer into a fancy alarm clock then turn itself off so I don't get distracted)
23:29:16 <oerjan> hm is it tomorrow (well, today) they start revealing nobel prizes
23:32:18 <kmc> cool so I'll get more opportunities to complain about how the "Nobel Prize" in Economics is bullshit
23:32:29 <kmc> i love doing that
23:32:55 <oerjan> that's only next monday though
23:33:21 <oerjan> and they haven't decided when to announce literature yet...
23:33:34 <oerjan> maybe they _really_ couldn't agree this year.
23:37:00 <kmc> good year for literature?
23:37:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, because it's actually Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel
23:38:16 <kmc> yeah Nobel had nothing to do with it, the Swedish central bank just decided to start awarding a prize "in memory of Nobel" around the same time as the real Nobel prizes
23:38:40 <kmc> like 70 years after the real prizes were set up
23:38:54 <kmc> which is a little sleazy if you ask me
23:39:19 <kmc> maybe I will also award some prizes in memory of Alfred Nobel
23:39:51 <Sgeo> How are the prizes funded? I know it was originally from Nobel's money, but... that money isn't lasting forever, is it?
23:40:07 <kmc> the idea of endowments is that they last forever (you only spend the interest)
23:40:12 <kmc> but i dunno
23:40:33 <kmc> apparently the foundation had $560 million as of 2007
23:41:20 <kmc> and they give out five * $1.2 million each year?
23:41:40 <kmc> so they only need like a 1% return, which should be easy
23:42:08 <kmc> although the expenses of managing that money and awarding the prizes could easily surpass the prize money itself
23:42:52 <kmc> not to mention the gold medals themselves...
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23:43:25 <kmc> just noticed PH's username is phantomho
23:49:57 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
23:51:58 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:52:30 <kmc> HackEgo should have a command to translate stuff using Bing or whoever still has an API
23:54:03 <oerjan> does _anyone_ see the first message as a link leading to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page%E3%80%82%EF%BC%88%E4%BB%96%E3%81%AE%E3%82%A8%E3%82%BD%E3%83%86%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%80%81irc.dal.net%E3%81%AE
23:54:30 <Koen_> I see your line as a highlight (hth)
23:54:53 <oerjan> i am slightly guessing jwinslow23 did. since he made it.
23:54:59 <kmc> we should also have EUC-JP and Shift-JIS versions
23:55:39 <oerjan> kmc: you're welcome to repair bin/translatefromto
23:56:05 <kmc> cat: /tmp/x.out: No such file or directory
23:56:28 <kmc> that was supposed to be
23:56:30 <kmc> ƥåץߥΥǥȥǥץȤιݤʾؤ褦ܤơhttp://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page¾Υƥåirc.dal.net#esotericء
23:56:53 <kmc> I don't have a better way than /exec -out to send non-UTF8 to the channel
23:57:04 <Koen_> that's a lot of stroken out Ys
23:58:13 <elliott> 00:57:04 -interactive: Creates a query-like window item. Text written to it is
23:58:16 <elliott> 00:57:04 sent to executed process, like /EXEC -in.
23:58:22 <elliott> you can literally use irssi to talk to a REPL
23:59:05 <oerjan> alas, i already have a suitable tmux window now
23:59:07 <Koen_> we already knew how to do that in #irp
00:00:42 <kmc> maybe there should be a mode to send the text only if it quits with exit code 0
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00:31:52 <kmc> oerjan: I guess your IRC client / terminal / whatever doesn't know about non-ASCII spaces
00:32:22 <kmc> er actually there isn't a space there
00:33:06 <oerjan> kmc: hm? it's not my client. my client doesn't make links anyhow.
00:33:51 <kmc> so you were asking if anyone saw something that you don't see?
00:34:04 <oerjan> but jwinslow23 made a page on esolang that looks like it came from that message.
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00:51:41 <zzo38> I intend to make it so that there is four kind of line prefixes (there is also lines with no prefix), meaning: assembly language, SQL, text, preformatted text. What could be the prefix characters to indicate these things?
00:57:48 <myname> what the hell are you doing
00:57:50 <zzo38> I shouldn't use letters; I should use a punctuation, other than those used by the basic format that can occur at the start of the line.
00:59:19 <myname> you guys don't even try
00:59:37 <zzo38> So far I think your idea of !?.: is best
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01:02:54 <Koen_> I was gonna go for _ = ≡ but I didn't have a quadruple-bar symbol on my keyboard
01:03:12 <zzo38> I don't have either; I have to use only ASCII symbols.
01:03:24 <zzo38> (and furthermore, only printable ASCII symbols)
01:50:34 <copumpkin> man, I come across random IRC snippets
01:50:41 <copumpkin> and guess what he's talking about!
01:51:10 <zzo38> I cannot guess it very well.
01:51:11 <mnoqy> you got the vowel right
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01:54:27 <Sgeo> Does space count as printable?
01:55:13 <tswett> I consider space a printable character.
01:55:28 <tswett> It doesn't do anything besides advancing the cursor and painting stuff.
01:58:12 <zzo38> Yes space does count as printable (as far as I am concerned), but it doesn't count here because the space would be ignored even before the prefix symbol; this way you can make it in a indented block rather than having to move it to the first column to make it messy.
01:58:49 <zzo38> Do you have the stats for the big leech so that we can downgrade it to make the stats for the small one too?
02:00:06 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe this? http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Black_Leech_(3.5e_Creature)
02:01:08 <zzo38> I will look later, but is it suitable to downgrade to make the small one?
02:01:17 <zzo38> (Right now I have another program open instead)
02:01:30 <oerjan> it actually says "small animal"
02:02:02 <oerjan> "A black leech, often called blood devil, is an about 3 feet long, 1 feet thick creature with a completely, inky black skin. It weighs about 40 pounds and is parasitic."
02:02:11 <zzo38> I suppose if the ordinary rules are used to change it to "tiny animal" then it might work
02:03:23 <oerjan> anyway it was my first google hit for '"leech" d&d' (i put leech in quotes because google seemed to want it to be lich instead), there may be other hits.
02:04:12 <tswett> So, lemme complain about... the universe or something.
02:05:00 <oerjan> well, i have a hunch the others on the first page are spells and powers.
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02:05:19 <tswett> So, there's Haskell. It's described as "the simply typed lambda calculus with tons and tons of syntactic sugar on top". It's pretty much one of the fundamental programming languages of the universe.
02:05:37 <Bike> legend has it that the sun was developed in haskell
02:05:57 <zzo38> oerjan: Maybe. However the purpose of such a thing I ask is for use as a familiar and other things.
02:07:00 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, the link i gave was for a creature.
02:07:05 <FreeFull> Brainfuck is the most fundamental language
02:07:07 <tswett> So I once pondered, what would Haskell be like if values couldn't be duplicated or discarded? A lot of stuff would become easier; instead of having monadic I/O, you could have functions taking a World and returning a World.
02:07:11 <FreeFull> Everything else is a dialect of Brainfuck
02:07:16 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I know that you said "small animal" which is implying that.
02:07:25 <oerjan> tswett: http://xkcd.com/224/
02:07:34 <Bike> Are we talking about animals, I bet animals are way more interesting than Platonism.
02:07:41 <tswett> Turns out that, like Haskell is in some sense equivalent to intuitionistic logic, there's another sort of logic, linear logic, that would be equivalent to Haskell-without-duplicating-or-discarding.
02:08:12 <zzo38> (But I do like to make up some spell/power too, such as, "Kjugobe's Timer", and magic items such as the magic pair balls which allow you to know the distance between them and teleport the other one to you while you are holding one.)
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02:08:56 <tswett> FreeFull: something like that. In this language, uniqueness would be enforced *everywhere*; you'd need special markers or whatever in order to do something that doesn't obey it.
02:09:02 <oerjan> tswett: btw haskell isn't simply typed, it's polymorphic with its own heap of extensions to hindley-milner types.
02:09:26 <tswett> oerjan: how far does Haskell 98 extend HM types?
02:09:58 <tswett> So it turns out some people have created programming languages based on linear logic. I've looked at them, and I don't really like any of them. So I decided to try to create a programming language that's pretty much Haskell, but linear.
02:10:19 <oerjan> tswett: also look at Clean, which is the very-similar-to-an-older-brother-of-haskell-using-unique-types-instead-of-IO-monads-although-you-_can_-define-monads-if-you-want language.
02:10:24 <zzo38> I will write down the creature stats you gave me so that I can remember it for later in order to downgrade it.
02:10:53 <tswett> I'm calling it Hylisk. As far as I can think, I have it totally worked out, except for a few unimportant details, like what members its None class would have.
02:11:58 <tswett> So, Hylisk and Haskell are almost completely identical, right? Hylisk is also purely functional, with lambdas and applying and algebraic data types and pattern matching and all that jazz.
02:12:25 <tswett> And yet, I've put hours and hours of thought into the idea of compiling Hylisk into Haskell, and I just can't find a way to do it that makes any sense.
02:12:54 <oerjan> tswett: well the first haskell extension was type classes. then the classes were allowed to be type constructors instead of just types, which allowed e.g. Monad. since then it has got all kinds of weird stuff, type families, multiparameter type classes, rank n types, existential types, and lately kind polymorphism and automatic raising of types to kinds...
02:13:18 <oerjan> *the class members were
02:13:19 <zzo38> oerjan: A lot of these Haskell extension are useful.
02:13:26 <tswett> Since when does Haskell 98 have type families?
02:13:45 <FreeFull> tswett: Have you been working on an implementation?
02:13:57 <tswett> But yeah, type constructors and classes are definitely extensions, I think.
02:14:10 <zzo38> tswett: Do you have the other details too?
02:14:30 <oerjan> tswett: haskell 98 isn't the latest standard. almost everything beyong class type constructors isn't included in that. not that haskell 2010 added any type extensions that i recall.
02:14:32 <tswett> FreeFull: not really; I want to write a compiler, not an interpreter, but I have no idea how a compiler would work.
02:14:52 <tswett> oerjan: *nod* I'm just looking to copy Haskell 98 at the moment.
02:14:56 <FreeFull> tswett: Would System F be useful?
02:15:02 <tswett> zzo38: the other details about what? The type system, or the entire language?
02:15:18 <FreeFull> Maybe you could compile down to the same dialect of System F that Haskell uses, and then use GHC's infrastructure from there on
02:15:29 <oerjan> tswett: with all the changes they've done in the basic libraries i'm not even sure ghc _supports_ haskell 98 any more.
02:15:49 <tswett> FreeFull: the thing is, Hylisk types don't translate cleanly into Haskell types, at least not in any way I've discovered.
02:16:03 <oerjan> the removal of superclasses on Num would be the biggest inconsistency, i think.
02:16:05 <elliott> oerjan: you have to replace (Num a) constraints with (Num a, Show a, Eq a), everything else is "fine" if you use the haskell98 base library afaik
02:16:18 <elliott> of course Applicative => Monad is happening and will ruin everything.
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02:16:30 <tswett> The best idea I've come up with so far is to have a Haskell type called HyliskValue and make everything be that.
02:16:57 <FreeFull> That sounds like throwing types away
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02:16:59 <kmc> copumpkin: what did i do now
02:17:09 <elliott> tswett: look at https://github.com/isomorphism/Delineate.
02:17:28 <tswett> zzo38: well, I guess there are some other details I've thought of that I haven't decided what to do about. And, undoubtedly, some other details I've completely forgotten about.
02:18:29 <FreeFull> tswett: I think rather than trying to map types to types, you just create your own type system
02:18:37 <FreeFull> Which you probably are already doing
02:19:01 <FreeFull> Although if you say it's still typed lambda calculus, you should be able to compile down to that
02:19:28 <tswett> elliott: I've looked at that, and I feel like I ultimately dismissed it for some reason. Now I don't remember why I dismissed it. Maybe I didn't have a good reason.
02:21:04 <tswett> FreeFull: well, here's one rough spot that Hylisk has. In Hylisk, there's a type for functions that don't return: a function of type "a -> Done" takes "a", and then doesn't return. Now, there's a function cancel :: ((a -> Done) -> Done) -> a.
02:21:31 <oerjan> elliott: it just makes a lie of the promise the haskell 98 report made that programs made according to it should expect to be supported long after new standards had arrived.
02:21:44 <tswett> "cancel" takes a function f. It then creates a new function g, and passes g into f. Then it waits for f to call g, and grabs the argument to g and returns it.
02:22:19 <Koen_> tswett: what's the point of a function that doesn't return, except side-effects? but I thought Hylisk was purely functional and that would mean there are no side-effects...
02:23:50 <tswett> Koen_: well, there are ways that data can get out of a function besides being returned.
02:25:02 <tswett> All right. You might really hate this syntax. If so, I apologize.
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02:25:18 <tswett> Example: ((\y -> y 3) \x) -> x
02:25:37 <tswett> You know what, that example can be simplified.
02:25:55 <tswett> In Hylisk, \x is a function that binds x to its argument, and doesn't return.
02:26:04 <tswett> So (\x 3) -> x evaluates to 3.
02:26:28 <zzo38> Do they have any relations to linear logic?
02:26:44 <Koen_> so that's "assign 3 to x"?
02:26:49 <tswett> zzo38: the stuff that I just described? Yeah, absolutely; it's completely inspired by linear logic.
02:26:53 <Koen_> that sounds *a lot* like a side-effect
02:27:07 <zzo38> Is there a zero, one, top, and bottom types? What do they do, if so?
02:27:39 <tswett> Sounds really impure, but isn't. There's no way to do destructive modifications. Evaluating the same expression twice always gives you the same answer.
02:28:17 <Koen_> destructive as in irreversible?
02:28:54 <oerjan> i see google front page has changed its ui again. now i need one more click to get to translate.
02:29:09 <oerjan> it was already slightly annoying that i needed two.
02:29:16 <tswett> zzo38: yup. Zero is an uninhabited type. One is the unit type, whose values can be freely created and destroyed. Top is a "garbage" type; you can create values of it, but values of that type can't be destroyed or otherwise disposed of. Done is the "no return" type; if a function returns Done, that's equivalent to not returning.
02:30:14 <oerjan> i assume this is poisonous infection from that mobile app stuff.
02:31:20 <tswett> Koen_: you know, I guess I don't really have a good idea of what "destructive modification" actually means.
02:31:36 <tswett> I mean, "const True" is an irreversible function in Haskell, isn't it? But it's not impure.
02:32:39 <Koen_> I'm not sure what -> means in Hylisk, but I'm gonna assume "(\x 3) -> x" is literally what I would write in ocaml as "let x = 3 in x". in that case the only reason why this "assignment" isn't a side-effect is because it's not an assignment, but rather just a replacement in the right-hand expression
02:33:12 <Koen_> (and the right-hand expression wouldn't make sense without the let in, since x would be free)
02:33:29 <tswett> Right. And that's pretty much what -> does.
02:33:45 <tswett> Evaluate the left hand side until it's of the form "\x y", and then replace x with y on the right hand side.
02:34:19 <Koen_> yeah... but in that case "\x 3" doesn't make sense without the "->" ?
02:34:22 <tswett> Now, here's cancel: cancel f = (f \x) -> x
02:34:37 <Koen_> so it's not really a function
02:35:16 <tswett> Backslash-variables, arrows, and the corresponding bare variables are in a one-to-one-to-one correspondence. Each appearance of one must correspond to exactly one appearance of each of the other two.
02:35:54 <tswett> Koen_: well, it's certainly treated as a function. It has a type (in this case, something like Integer -> Done), it can be passed into functions that take functions, and so on.
02:35:54 <FreeFull> Which excludes something like \x -> x*x
02:36:05 <tswett> FreeFull: right, because x appears too many times on the right hand side.
02:36:30 <Koen_> my point is I'm under the impression that this "Done" is similar to ocaml's "unit"... but ocaml has a unit type because it's is *not* purely functional
02:36:52 <FreeFull> tswett: How would you write something like that, assuming there is no other way to square?
02:37:34 <tswett> FreeFull: well, here's how you're going to write it if I don't create any syntactic sugar for it: \x -> uncurry (*) (duplicate x)
02:37:39 <tswett> I'm going to create syntactic sugar for it.
02:38:12 <tswett> "\x -> x*x" is probably going to be syntactic sugar for "\x -> uncurry (*) (duplicate x)". "duplicate" is a member of a class, called Duplicable or something.
02:38:40 <tswett> The instance of duplicate for Int is primitive, but other data types might have non-primitive implementations.
02:38:42 <FreeFull> tswett: Do you think something like this could work as a stack-based/concatenative language?
02:39:20 <tswett> Koen_: it took me a really, really long time to figure out what Done means, and I still don't have too great a grip on it.
02:40:15 <Koen_> then it's probably not like ocaml's unit, because afaik "unit" just stands for "dummy value you return when you've got nothing to return"
02:40:38 <tswett> Koen_: right. Hylisk has such a type; it's tentatively called Unit.
02:41:03 <Koen_> ooooookay. so there are side-effect after-all?
02:41:43 <elliott> Haskell has () too. nothing to do with side-effects
02:42:17 <tswett> FreeFull: well, I did come up with an idea for a modified do-block. "sdo {a; b; c}" is syntactic sugar for "c . b . a". And if you write "x <- a", then I think that corresponds to matching a with a pair, binding x to one half of it, and passing the rest of it along.
02:42:39 <tswett> elliott: yeah, but my Weird Extended Lambda Syntax looks a lot like side-effects.
02:42:40 <Koen_> I apologize for exhibiting my ignorance like that :p but I really can't think of a use for the unit type, other than as return type for side-effect-only functions
02:43:01 <elliott> same reason the identity function is useful
02:43:14 <zzo38> Do you expect downgrading the size to make it suitable for familiar and similar things?
02:43:17 <elliott> e.g., instantiating parameterised types
02:43:19 <Bike> "making @pl do stupid things"
02:44:20 <Koen_> I'll try to give that some thought, and in the meantime I'll give myself some sleep. thank you for your explanations and your patience!
02:44:44 <FreeFull> tswett: I want to try it out as soon as you have a working implementation
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02:46:07 <tswett> I guess here's how I'd say it. "\x 3 -> x" doesn't have side effects. The funky thing about \x is that instead of returning a value into the surrounding expression, it returns a value into the letter x on the other side of the arrow. The only "side effect" is that data moves through a different channel.
02:46:12 <tswett> FreeFull: yeah, me too. ^_^
02:48:49 <tswett> So, lemme think. Hylisk types don't seem to be possible to translate into Haskell in a sensible way. Maybe they are, I dunno. But Hylisk *expressions* can be translated into Haskell in a sensible way, or so it seems.
02:49:42 <elliott> tswett: a Hylisk type of kind * will most likely translate into a Haskell type of kind * -> * or (* -> *) -> *.
02:50:39 <tswett> elliott: I had that thought, yeah. For a little while, I thought that Hylisk types might even translate into monads.
02:52:13 <elliott> e.g. newtype Done r = Done r; data Unit r = Unit; data Zero r
02:52:31 <elliott> maybe that Unit is actually Top.
02:52:48 <tswett> elliott: I've had almost exactly the same thought as that, yeah.
02:53:39 <Bike> that wasn't very funny.
02:53:49 <tswett> I defined the four identity types (Done, Unit, Zero/Impossible, Top/Garbage) in those three ways, using one of the definitions twice, but I knew that had to be wrong.
02:54:26 <tswett> Now, certainly the Hylisk type World does translate to a Haskell monad. You'll never guess which one. Hint: it's IO.
02:54:31 <elliott> tswett: I think you should rename Unit -> One and Done -> Bottom.
02:54:35 <elliott> for consistency with the rest of the world.
02:55:14 <tswett> elliott: I could, I suppose, but Haskellers are used to "bottom" meaning... whatever its Haskell meaning is.
02:55:51 <tswett> Now, my reasoning with World and IO is pretty straightforward. In Haskell, a monad is essentially a context, which cannot be duplicated or discarded, but which can be queried.
02:56:18 <tswett> And in Hylisk, a value of type World is essentially a context, which cannot be duplicated or discarded, but which can be queried. So, like, exactly the same damn thing.
02:56:59 <tswett> But there's a problem. In Haskell, querying the context doesn't change the type of a context. If you make a query, you can always make the same query again any number of types.
02:57:27 <zzo38> Is this OK? Telepathy to 5ft anywhere; master loses 3 max HP within range.
02:58:09 <tswett> But that's not the case in Hylisk. If you have a value of type (Int -> Int), then you can pass an Int into it and receive an Int, but only once.
02:58:30 <zzo38> tswett: Then add some ! and ? types too.
02:58:46 <zzo38> (Possibly even more than one kind of each.)
02:58:59 <tswett> zzo38: yeah, but the problem isn't that ! and ? don't exist; the problem is that types without ! and ? do exist.
02:59:44 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, I know, but there can be ! and ? types in addition to the types without ! and ?
03:00:12 <tswett> !(Int -> Int) would translate perfectly well as a Haskell monad, I think. But that doesn't fix the fact that (Int -> Int) does not.
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03:02:14 <tswett> So, this gives me a thought: "duh, just make them functors instead".
03:03:15 <tswett> If "f" is a Hylisk type, then the corresponding Haskell type "f a" will mean "something that uses a Hylisk value of type 'f' to produce a Haskell value of type 'a'".
03:04:38 <tswett> So, what is "Done a"? It's something that uses a Hylisk value of type "Done" to produce a Haskell value of type "a".
03:05:15 <tswett> There's a problem with that, though. The only thing you can do with a value of type "Done" is call it, and when you do, it won't return the program flow back to you.
03:05:54 <elliott> tswett: I am pretty sure you want to be using something like the continuation monad's idea of negation.
03:06:07 <elliott> which importantly, lets you *customise* the equivalent of Done to an "r" type you get to choose
03:06:31 <tswett> elliott: I've definitely thought about the continuation monad(s) a lot, yeah. They also have the idea of "functions that don't return".
03:06:48 <tswett> Where can I read about negation in a continuation monad?
03:06:57 <elliott> Oleg's site has some stuff, I think
03:11:08 <tswett> I haven't found anything yet.
03:14:06 <tswett> What *is* the continuation monad's idea of negation, exactly? Is the negative of "a" in "Cont r" just "a -> r"?
03:17:09 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
03:18:37 <tswett> I have had some vague ideas about how Hylisk might turn into continuation stuff. In Haskell, you can't prevent someone from duplicating a value; but there may be ways to make it so that even if they do duplicate a value, they can only use one copy of it.
03:19:21 <tswett> Like, suppose you're a function of type (a -> r) -> r, where r is opaque to you. You can duplicate your argument all you want, but it's not going to matter, because you can only *use* it once.
03:20:08 <oerjan> tswett: i think the negative of a is ideally a -> Cont r Void
03:20:57 <tswett> That's isomorphic to a -> r, though, isn't it?
03:21:14 <tswett> That's a -> (Void -> r) -> r, and (Void -> r) only has one inhabitant.
03:21:44 <oerjan> i was trying to think inside the monad
03:22:09 <tswett> Gee, this is starting to seem like it might be really simple.
03:22:28 <oerjan> wait, Void -> r has as many inhabitants as r has.
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03:22:32 <Bike> such is computer science
03:22:53 <tswett> oerjan: uh, no? The only inhabitant is \x -> case x of {}.
03:23:13 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, I think all those are equivalent, aren't they?
03:23:37 <copumpkin> they're all the same empty function
03:23:54 <oerjan> copumpkin: a total language function doesn't have to use its argument.
03:24:13 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, but who says const x /= const y?
03:25:16 <tswett> If you're a function of type "Either (a -> r) (b -> r) -> r", you'll provide either an "a" or a "b" to anyone who asks, but they'll only really be able to use one of them.
03:26:41 <tswett> And if you're a function of type "(a -> r, b -> r) -> r", then, uh... what the heck is that
03:28:11 <tswett> Okay, if you're a function of type "(a, b -> r) -> r", then you'll take an "a", and you'll return a "b", but no matter how many times you're called, they'll only be able to use one of the "b"s.
03:28:21 <copumpkin> I'm too tired to explain now, but https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/haskell-cafe/XQ-tFFKgyqM/ldrTqYd4hHsJ
03:28:42 <copumpkin> I'm talking about your (a -> r, b -> r) -> r
03:28:44 <copumpkin> being isomorphic to Either a b, if your quantifiers are where I think they re
03:28:58 <copumpkin> type Either a b = forall r. (a -> r, b -> r) -> r
03:29:05 <tswett> I guess that makes sense.
03:29:10 <tswett> Yeah, I'm not sure where the quantifiers are, though.
03:29:57 * copumpkin mumbles something about fibrations and binding
03:30:01 <tswett> What if r is existentially qualified... then it's much worse.
03:30:22 <tswett> Yeah, it must be quantified dependent on something...
03:30:38 <tswett> Because that's supposed to be the "par" of linear logic, which is definitely not Either.
03:31:05 <copumpkin> if those are -o then it's different
03:31:10 <tswett> Essentially, a "Par a b" is a single value that behaves as both "a" and "b" at once.
03:31:15 <copumpkin> but I'm not well versed in reasoning about linear logic
03:31:19 <tswett> Nope, this is Haskell.
03:31:48 <tswett> Guess I'll go to sleep, yeah. I'll think about continuations.
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03:34:58 <oerjan> par is the one that's hardest to intuit
03:42:12 <elliott> oerjan: forall r (f g :: Void -> r), f = g
03:42:30 <elliott> oerjan: because forall (x :: Void), f x = g x
03:42:44 <elliott> because forall (x :: Void), p
03:44:53 <oerjan> OKAY BUT DON'T ASK ME FOR HELP WHEN LOGIC STARTS BREAKING
03:50:20 <Fiora> `slist (or did someone already do this? I don't know when the upd8 was)
03:50:24 <HackEgo> slist (or did someone already do this? I don't know when the upd8 was): Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:50:47 <Sgeo> There was one HUGE update today
03:50:49 <Sgeo> Forgot to slist
03:53:37 <Bike> This webpage is not available <-- so i take it it turned out roxy is calliope's dream clone wife or something similarly server-crashing
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05:19:51 <__Hithere> i lkie you Bike, you are the cesloot
05:20:02 <Bike> fnially someonea gets it
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05:24:33 <kmc> hi __Hithere
05:24:38 <kmc> `relcome __Hithere
05:24:43 <HackEgo> __Hithere: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:24:54 <__Hithere> i was adaerly wlceeomd lkie fitfy mliolin tmies
05:25:24 <kmc> itt we are drunk
05:26:43 -!- kmc has set topic: The how-to guide to become the new face of zero and one | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | this spacetime intentionally left right.
05:26:45 <elliott> ^v: why are you connected as both ^v and __Hithere?
05:27:20 <__Hithere> eloitlt, becusae i wnat to see how aewosme my txet lokos
05:28:38 <oerjan> i think someone read too much of that "people only need the first and last letters to be in the right place" theory
05:29:00 <kmc> so you're not drunk?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? fals advertising
05:29:14 <kmc> what this channel has become..........
05:30:00 <__Hithere> maby i should make it seperate by capitals
05:30:30 <oerjan> __Hithere: there is no such thing as BrainFuck.
05:30:39 <oerjan> you may be confusing it with brainfuck.
05:30:43 <kmc> brbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrb-
05:30:52 * ^v shoots himself in head
05:30:58 <kmc> NOW THE HUNTER BECOMES THE HUNTED
05:31:15 <^v> is it good that i use http response code 337 for a project thingy? c_c
05:31:28 <kmc> HTTP 402 Payment Required
05:31:39 <^v> so that the header looks like HTTP/1.1 337 H4X
05:32:30 <kmc> none of that here plz
05:32:39 <kmc> why are you russian some of the time
05:32:51 <^v> im never russian
05:33:20 <kmc> Я люблю большие окурки и я не могу лгать
05:33:42 <^v> Ш вщте дшлу нщг kmc нщг фку ф зщефещ.
05:33:59 <oerjan> ^v: i suspect nonexistent response codes are not recommended.
05:34:11 <^v> not for webpages
05:34:13 <kmc> im a potato?!?!?!?
05:34:38 <^v> kmc has a russian keyboard
05:34:39 <kmc> russian is hard
05:34:49 <^v> (or memorized the keys)
05:35:10 <^v> ^ cant see this
05:35:19 <kmc> ^----------------------- IM WITH STUPID
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05:35:51 <^v> i hated that bastard
05:35:56 <^v> he was an $%^hole
05:36:06 <oerjan> he had something to hyde
05:36:08 <kmc> Русский Стандарт
05:36:20 <^v> Russian Standard
05:36:47 <kmc> Вы хотите муравьев? потому что это, как вы получите муравьев
05:37:29 <^v> Нет, я, как картофель больше
05:38:10 <^v> Ш дшлу екфшты
05:38:45 <kmc> <span lang="ru">
05:39:20 <^v> i dont like python
05:39:28 <^v> it is worth the title of joke esoteric language
05:39:35 <kmc> not interesting enuf
05:39:47 <^v> but its useless by itself
05:40:13 <kmc> those languages are so boring
06:20:36 <oerjan> not to be confused with a coopless
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11:32:13 <Taneb> Man, I forget how easy adblock makes watching youtube
11:32:26 <Taneb> Or having a desktop IRC client makes going on IRC
11:33:44 <Taneb> I had my first actual lectures this morning
11:34:09 <Taneb> One was an introduction to boolean logic, the other was an introduction to the concept of a computer architecture
11:34:17 <Taneb> I preferred the first one
11:34:31 <Taneb> I didn't think the second was very well presented
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11:55:27 <S1> So Bike what are you doing?
12:02:27 <S1> good to hear
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13:52:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:53:47 <boily> @tell oerjan my perception skills are poor. I usually need 17+ on a check.
13:53:51 <boily> @tell oerjan indeed.
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15:11:15 <JWinslow23> I'm working on a Hello World program in Tic-Tac-Toe.
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15:23:45 <JWinslow23> Anyone wanna help convert other BF programs to Tic-Tac-Toe?
15:23:57 <JWinslow23> Maybe someone can make a conversion program!
15:24:10 <JWinslow23> I'm terrible at non-esoteric programming.
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15:40:50 <Gregor> "I'm terrible at non-esoteric programming" -> So write a BF version. Then convert it with itself.
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15:55:55 <nooodl> help i think tic tac toe is kinda cute for a brainfuck derivative...
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16:15:33 <nooodl> @tell JWinslow http://codepad.org/fBMEnC3S is this a valid bf->ttt conversion? the wiki article is kinda vague
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16:23:05 <ais523> @tell elliott I want to block the latest spambot (I think I've spotted a pattern) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/new appears to be a blank page; is there some sort of PHP issue going on on esolangs.org?
16:27:24 <fizzie> nooodl: It seems kinda wasteful.
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16:59:13 <boily> I have a dream... an Esolang Wiki without spam...
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17:17:51 <kmc> shachaf: it sounds like Servo may get speculative tokenization of CSS a la http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/118795/pldi026-vaswani.pdf
17:17:54 <kmc> p. exciting
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17:21:46 <ais523> I started lagging, so I reconnected
17:21:50 <ais523> in time to see the messages I'd just sent
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17:36:07 <elliott> probably a version mismatch
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18:18:30 <metasepia> CYUL 071810Z 22034G50KT 140V220 6SM -RA SCT022 OVC045 20/17 A2956 RERA RMK SC4SC4 PRESRR SLP011 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
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18:33:49 <tswett> So you guys know Delineate.hs? A certain Haskell module that pretty much purports to implement linear typing, in Haskell.
18:34:58 <tswett> This morning, during statistics class, I tried to replicate it. I could remember the definitions for Not and the turnstile, but nothing else. I came up with an implementation of Plus, and then I just used Not to turn it into an implementation of With.
18:35:22 <Bike> did you learn any statistics
18:36:09 <tswett> So then I realized that given a linear type, the double negation of that type is always equivalent to the original type. So I added a new class, Dne, with a function called dne that lets you eliminate double negation.
18:36:18 <tswett> This allowed me to simplify my implementation of With.
18:36:34 <tswett> Then I go look here, and it turns out my implementation of With is this guy's implementation of Times.
18:36:35 <boily> so... you added stuff to remove stuff?
18:36:58 <tswett> They can't both be right, can they??????
18:36:59 * boily scratches his head in paradozzulment
18:37:00 <tswett> boily: something like that, yeah.
18:37:42 <tswett> So now I'm skeptical that this guy's Times is actually Times and not just With, because the thing he calls Times ought to be With.
18:40:28 <tswett> It kind of seems like it is. Ich estoy confused.
18:42:34 <tswett> I'll try to get a better idea of *how* this guy's stuff corresponds to linear logic. Like, what the actual correspondence is.
18:42:35 <boily> tswett: Je am 慌てている también.
18:44:10 <tswett> Google Translate says "慌てて" means "hastily".
18:45:20 <boily> it also suggests “perpexedly”.
18:46:18 <Bike> i am perplexedly always? that's some deep shit boily.
18:46:24 <tswett> Je don't parlare Japanisch.
18:46:28 <tswett> También is also, not always.
18:46:41 <boily> Bike: I am deep. it was -RAing today. humidity confuses my neurons.
18:46:54 <Bike> why your neurons specifically?
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18:47:16 <boily> tswett: et avec mon (supposément horrible) accent français, the confusion propagates by itself.
18:47:54 <boily> Bike: statistically, I have way more neurons than anything else in my body, modulo gastrointestinal bacteria.
18:48:41 <Bike> uh... you are human, right? or am i making bad assumptions?
18:49:25 <boily> I have five fingers per hand, and I dislike BF derivatives. I think I am human, or under ~duck typing, something that moderately acts like one.
18:49:53 <tswett> Is a ~duck a function that takes a duck and doesn't return?
18:50:35 <ais523> hmm, there's an interesting insider trading speculation going on
18:51:01 <ais523> it seems as though some people became aware of the contents of a specific announcement that was going to be released at a specific time
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18:51:09 <boily> tswett: it's a function that takes an unwanted query, then returns no information.
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18:51:25 <ais523> and acted upon it after it had been announced, but before there was time for the information to reach the markets even at the speed of light
18:52:01 <tswett> Isn't that a window of a few hundred milliseconds?
18:52:11 <Bike> i mean i'm just saying, you have less than a hundred billion neurons, and more than a hundred trillion cells. by cell count you probably have more fascia or something
18:52:17 <ais523> tswett: it was 7ms in this particular case
18:52:22 <boily> wikipedia says that there are about a thousand more bacteria in your gut than neurons in your brain. “The human body carries about 100 trillion microorganisms in its intestines” “One estimate puts the human brain at about 100 billion (10¹¹) neurons”
18:52:26 <ais523> but finance trading software's faster than that nowadays
18:52:37 <Bike> boily: well yes, but your body has other cells in it.
18:52:48 <ais523> <khallow> I must admit to being a bit surprised that there is a non empty intersection of relativity and finance law.
18:53:17 <Bike> ais523: is it time for me to recommend krugman's paper on hyperspace arbitrage again
18:53:30 <ais523> Bike: that seems like a great recommendation
18:53:37 <tswett> Yeah, the relative order of those two events seems to depend on the frame of reference, doesn't it.
18:53:39 <ais523> but I enjoy the fact that it exists
18:53:40 <Bike> aw, but it's full of jokes
18:53:48 <elliott> ais523: isn't it easily explainable by the fact that news organisations are allowed to transfer the data to their own servers in preparation for releasing it?
18:54:00 <elliott> so it can be released immediately at the scheduled time once copied
18:54:08 <Bike> http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf
18:54:12 <ais523> elliott: this was a big federal announcement in the US
18:54:17 <tswett> ais523: so, is anyone actually going to get prosecuted here?
18:54:18 <ais523> and they were intentionally keeping it secret until a specific time
18:54:19 <kmc> the really weird thing is that US securities law mandates a notional single reference frame for the National Market System, even though this is physically impossible
18:54:25 <boily> .............metasepia.........
18:54:36 <ais523> and they knew how time-sensitive it was, thus they specified the time they'd release it in advance, and used an atomic clock to make sure
18:54:48 <ais523> my guess is no, but it's quite early yet
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18:55:15 <tswett> ais523: so the information was time-sensitive down to less than a second?
18:55:23 <elliott> ais523: if you read the news articles it says news organisations are allowed to see and IIRC copy the data before it's announced
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18:55:39 <metasepia> fascia definition: a flat usually horizontal member of a building having the form of a flat band or broad fillet.
18:55:41 <elliott> ais523: so it's perfectly plausible they just copied it to a nearer server before the release date, as far as I know
18:55:56 <ais523> this is a plausible explanation
18:55:57 <elliott> ais523: thus allowing simultaneous release at both locations, because you already paid the light-speed requirement in transferring it beforehand
18:56:20 <elliott> I'd like to think that if it was that simple there would be no story, but...
18:56:21 <tswett> ais523: so... do you have a link to this or something?
18:56:47 <kmc> if I send an order to buy stock on NASDAQ, and NASDAQ thinks that I can get a better price on BATS, then they are legally required to route my order to BATS, but they might do this on the basis of their link to BATS being slow and the order can't actually be filled by the time it gets there
18:56:52 <kmc> v. annoying
18:57:11 <ais523> tswett: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/24/traders-may-have-gotten-last-weeks-fed-news-7-milliseconds-early/
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19:01:17 <tswett> Okay. So the article says that they placed the order at about 2:00:00.002, even though theoretically, there was no way they could have gotten that information until 2:00:00.007.
19:03:47 <tswett> <If I understand correctly>, that's not insider trading. The information was released at 2:00:00.000, so they placed the order after the information was publicly available. That may be really unfair, but the purpose of insider trading laws isn't to make the marketplace more fair; it's to prevent people with insider knowledge from leaking it.</If>
19:04:35 <ais523> tswett: not sure anyone understands this correctly
19:04:45 <ais523> I doubt it's ever come up before
19:05:52 <kmc> what's the purpose of preventing them from leaking it
19:05:55 <kmc> if not to make things more fair
19:06:24 <tswett> kmc: they obtained the information through some sort of agreement that obliges them to keep the information private.
19:06:48 <tswett> Or through illegitimate means.
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19:09:01 <Bike> boily: connective tissue. the stuff that keeps your heart tied to your ribcage.
19:09:37 <tswett> But yeah, the article makes a good point, I think. People trading securities ignorantly (i.e. literally everyone) are injecting free money into the market, or something like that, and all these guys compete to be the first to slurp it up.
19:10:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolfing haha what the fuck, awesome
19:11:01 <kmc> tswett: I don't know about "literally everyone"; the public US equity market is pretty damn efficient these days. it's hard to get a foothold building a new HFT strategy from scratch as there's very little low-hanging fruit
19:11:46 <tswett> kmc: yeah, but of all the people trading securities, not one of them knows *all* of the relevant information.
19:12:05 <kmc> brokerages get a lot of stupid orders but they'll match them internally or route them to various "dark pools" etc. before it hits the public market
19:12:27 <kmc> tswett: hm, ok, I guess that's a valid use of the word "ignorant"; I read a value judgement into it that wasn't there
19:12:34 <kmc> but I wouldn't say they're injecting "free money" then
19:12:42 <kmc> combining all that relevant information has a cost
19:12:53 <Bike> I don't know all the information relevant to this thai chicken i just bought for lunch but i'm confident that the purchase was a good decision.
19:12:54 <kmc> the people who don't pay that cost are paying others to do it for them
19:13:00 <kmc> or something
19:13:07 <Fiora> isn't HFT more along the lines of like, basically shaving cents off each transaction?
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19:13:29 <boily> Bike: what the rolfungot is that...
19:13:29 <fungot> boily: is the source free? can i write
19:13:35 <kmc> long term investors don't care about the last penny of the price; somebody else pays a bunch of physics PhDs and buys a bunch of servers to get that last penny from them
19:13:38 <ais523> Fiora: that's not how it's defined, but that's what it normally does in practice
19:13:39 <kmc> both parties walk away satisfied
19:13:41 <boily> fungot: of course you can. you just need an account on wikipédia.
19:13:41 <fungot> boily: or lichen. not. know.
19:13:42 <Bike> boily: pretty hilarious
19:13:51 <Fiora> I remember reading an article where they were doing cheesy things like using recognition algorithms to find large institutional trades
19:13:54 <kmc> Fiora, ais523: there are all kinds of different HFT strategies
19:13:57 <ais523> basically, suppose I want to buy something from you, I'm willing to pay £7, you're willing to sell it for £6
19:13:57 <Fiora> and then like, take advantage of that
19:14:12 <ais523> if we just made the deals with each other directly, we'd probably agree on a price somewhere in between
19:14:30 <ais523> in the markets, what will normally happen is that HFT bots will try to react as quickly as possible to us placing the buy or sell orders
19:14:39 <ais523> then buy it from you for £6 and sell it to me for £7
19:14:48 <Fiora> so like super short timescale arbitrage?
19:14:49 <boily> Bike: indeed. my previous top-quackering holistic body manipultion technique was accupressure, but I think that one takes the cherry.
19:15:13 <boily> fungot: lichen tastes good. I had it once in China.
19:15:13 <fungot> boily: every procedure returns a recurisve procedure. http://www.kendyck.com/ 2005/ 02/15-feb-2005 the scsh manual is?!
19:15:27 <Bike> boily: i wish my whole body was organized in gravity.
19:15:44 <ais523> anyway, this is tolerated because it increases liquidity; if I want to buy something for £7, and it normally trades for less than that, then the HFT bots will sell it to me immediately
19:15:49 <boily> Bike: btw, what does it mean?
19:15:56 <Bike> boily: what does what mean
19:16:00 <ais523> in anticipation of someone selling it for less than that soon (say, when you come along with your £6 version)
19:16:22 <ais523> so I pay more than I might have to if I'd traded with you directly, but I get the trade fulfilled faster
19:16:40 <tswett> So suppose that first you place an order of BUY LIMIT 7. Then I guess the bots could place an order of BUY LIMIT 6 right away. Then I place an order of SELL LIMIT 6, and so I sell it to the bot. Then the bot places an order of SELL LIMIT 7 and sells it to you.
19:16:52 <boily> Bike: to be organized in gravity.
19:16:54 <kmc> some strategies provide liquidity, some of them take liquidity
19:16:58 <kmc> both can be classified as HFT
19:17:09 <boily> fungot: the recursion that can be recursed is not the true recursion.
19:17:09 <Bike> boily: I don't know but it sounds relaxing.
19:17:09 <fungot> boily: it is not so much so that a reload can work" occasions. stupidity isn't so special. eg. many doctors think that multiple sclerosis ( fnord), fnord ( the old style negation symbol looks in between and good key travel
19:17:16 <kmc> some strategies lose money on average except that exchanges pay you to provide liquidity
19:17:37 <boily> Bike: I'm sure I can find at least on place here.
19:17:56 <tswett> I'd love to see the origin of "every procedure returns a recurisve procedure".
19:18:09 <boily> `pastlogs every procedure returns
19:18:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
19:18:20 <Bike> it could be, like, markov.
19:18:28 <tswett> Search for "recurisve procedure", man.
19:18:30 <Bike> "every procedure returns" and "returns a recurisve procedure" massed up.
19:19:10 <boily> Bike: what do you know → http://www.rolfing.qc.ca/engl/rolf2.htm
19:19:18 <tswett> Yeah, but what sorts of things return recurisve procedures?
19:19:45 <Bike> https://www.google.com/search?q=recurisve this misspelling is more common than i thought.
19:19:53 <tswett> I guess you could say that the Y combinator returns a recurisve procedure. But we wouldn't call it a procedure.
19:21:33 <tswett> Like, since it's a "procedure", that seems to imply that it's an actual piece of computer code. A recurisve one, to boot. But what sort of thing would specifically return a piece of recurisve code, rather than just any type of code? Not a compiler. Usually.
19:21:51 <Bike> "I have the profound conviction that our bodies are the physical manifestation of who we are."
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19:21:58 <boily> tswett: self-self-modifying code?
19:22:53 <Bike> what if it meant "recursive" as in "computable", eh
19:23:16 <tswett> Hmmm. That's a possibility.
19:23:42 <kmc> Fiora, ais523: a lot of strategies can be decomposed as a "signal" that tells you what assets would be good to own right now, and an execution engine which buys those at the best possible price by understanding market microstructure
19:23:52 <Bike> boily: by the way, if your neurons are directly exposed to atmospheric humidity, i recommend consulting a medical professional immediately. preferably a certified Rolfer ™.
19:24:45 <kmc> in some cases the former is trivial, e.g. a pure market maker which is willing to go long or short on anything. in that case the execution had better be very good so that you can unload the position when the market moves
19:25:07 <ion> :-D. The video could be straight from The Onion. I also laughed when a Fox News employee explained with a straight face that since people don’t have the time to find out what’s true and what’s not, Fox News will helpfully do that for them. http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/7/4812630/fox-news-shepard-smith-news-deck
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19:25:36 <boily> Bike: can one auto-rolf oneself? I have this emotional attachment to my precious brain.
19:25:44 <Bike> ion: that is an awesome picture
19:25:51 <kmc> but often the signal is based on observed patterns and statistical correlations between assets and such
19:25:58 <Bike> boily: you'll have to get certification in practicing Rolfing ® first.
19:26:01 <tswett> So, like... what happens when a person sells stock short, or something, and then they don't have enough money to buy it back?
19:26:07 <kmc> also, you can factor out the execution engine as a service, and this is often done within a firm, but brokers will also do it for you
19:26:10 <tswett> Presumably someone has to pay for that.
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19:26:37 <kmc> they'll offer a service which guarantees to buy a stock over the next minute and give you a price which is at most x basis points above the volume-weighted average price over that minute
19:26:46 <tswett> Guess I need to go. Auf Wiedersehen.
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19:26:56 <kmc> oh I was going to answer the question :/
19:26:59 <Bike> «"We call these BATs," Smith notes. "Big area touchscreens."» it's so beautiful
19:27:43 <boily> uhm. in Québec French, «toucher son bat» is very obscene...
19:28:10 <kmc> what's it mean
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19:28:43 <kmc> 'This is to apprise you that $1.9 Million USD was paid out to us by the United Nations in conjunction with Microsoft...
19:28:46 <kmc> They have successfully succeeded in depositing "your" total funds of $1,900,000.00 with us here at Western Union, Malaysia.'
19:29:03 <Bike> you had two million dollars? do you have any more? can i have some?
19:29:27 <boily> kmc: «bat» is slang for penis.
19:36:14 <boily> why does each time I mention something embarassing do all conversations suddenly stop?
19:36:27 <Bike> My chicken is spicy. I can't talk.
19:37:38 <boily> good point. chicken has ultimate priority.
19:37:53 <kmc> what isn't slang for penis, really
19:40:00 <ais523> kmc: "what" isn't slang for penis
19:40:08 <ais523> at least, not before I said that
19:40:22 <Bike> no, it was before you said that, i can think of how
19:40:44 <ais523> Bike: it has to actually be used for that purpose to be slang
19:40:52 <ais523> or at least appear on Urban Dictionary
19:43:02 <kmc> "Note: This fund is coming in 2 security proof boxes which are sealed with Synthetic nylon seal and padded with machine."
19:43:03 <fizzie> The Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms lists "what you may call it" ("often shortened to whatsit, less often to whatzis") with the meaning of "any taboo object".
19:43:42 <Bike> yeah, that's the sort of thing i was thinking o.
19:43:57 <fizzie> "The whatsit is through there if you want it. (B. Forbes, 1983--a woman was indicating where the lavatory lay)"
19:44:09 <kmc> let's see so World Fund Management wants to give me $7.3M, Standard Chartered is sending me $65M, and the United Nations / Microsoft are sending me $1.9M
19:44:15 <ais523> fizzie: but that's a different word
19:44:40 <Fiora> my spam box has a $10.5m thing from Nigeria
19:44:40 <fizzie> ("whistle" is slang for penis. (Didn't have to read very far to find one.))
19:44:40 * ais523 wonders what "padded with machine" means
19:44:55 <Fiora> I am vaguely afraid to open any of them though
19:45:03 * kmc asks the padding oracle
19:45:33 -!- asie has joined.
19:48:24 <fizzie> "jump² a single act of copulation"
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19:50:31 <olsner> kmc: why are they giving you money?
19:51:02 <kmc> cause i'm so great
19:51:17 <kmc> Copulation in Three Acts
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20:38:57 <kmc> checking whether the C compiler (clang -fPIC -fPIC -fPIC) works... no
20:39:03 <kmc> maybe with a fourth -fPIC ?!?!?!?
20:40:14 <boily> kmc: you sound like fungot.
20:40:44 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:40:47 <fizzie> fungot: Why u no reply?
20:40:47 <fungot> fizzie: invalid syntax delay and force are deficient. is that possible.
20:41:20 <boily> fungot: what have I done to you?
20:41:32 <boily> fungot: I must be... what?
20:41:33 <fungot> boily: oh offby1, it's not useful
20:42:53 * boily slaps fungot "get a hold of yourself!"
20:42:53 <fungot> boily: it's silly to junk up a page for the 21st century or something for tseitsei and perhaps others too: http://www.deviantart.com/ view/ fnord
20:43:22 <ion> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131005/01383624761/how-telecom-helped-government-spy-me.shtml
20:46:11 <boily> fungot: obviously.
20:46:12 <fungot> boily: stalin compiling itself is, just a clue
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21:42:20 <oerjan> `pastelogs @tell boily
21:42:25 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 48m 37s ago: my perception skills are poor. I usually need 17+ on a check.
21:42:25 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 48m 33s ago: indeed.
21:43:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3029
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22:14:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1949
22:15:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:16:23 <oerjan> @tell boily fungot's irc style includes some logs from #scheme, the recurisve thing probably comes from there.
22:16:23 <fungot> oerjan: that's why i was confused by spurious control chars coming out of nothing but cornstarch water. you would see them as seperate libraries instead of solving f(x,y,z,t) 0 for x 0 99
22:16:57 <olsner> fungot: I would also be confused by that...
22:16:57 <fungot> olsner: it was quick and she i let her fnord out one last zippy the pinhead is a character from the input from a file; i don't wnat to setup output to fnord to
22:17:23 <oerjan> i see #scheme takes grieving over their idols seriously.
22:18:08 <fungot> shachaf: ( r6rs seems pretty cool game, supports many languages) fnord work
22:19:18 <fungot> shachaf: and another satisfied customer. next! *grin*
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22:28:40 <oerjan> <Bike> "I have the profound conviction that our bodies are the physical manifestation of who we are." <-- finally a profound statement we can all agree with!
22:28:55 -!- JWinslow23 has joined.
22:29:05 <oerjan> except, perhaps, the profundity part.
22:29:42 <JWinslow23> I figured out my Hello World program! It is 101 instructions in BF, and 81 games in TicTacToe. Wow.
22:30:24 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
22:30:29 <EgoBot> 140 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>++++++<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.>+++.<<.+++.------.--------.>+.-----------------------. [238]
22:30:53 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello World
22:30:55 <EgoBot> 110 ++++++++++[>+>++++++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>>>++.<+.+++++++..+++.>>++.<+++++++++++++++.<.+++.------.--------.<. [831]
22:31:56 <JWinslow23> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
22:32:56 <myname> JWinslow23: so, you have your language specified?
22:34:47 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
22:34:53 <JWinslow23> I have all of the syntax (and cat program) down.
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22:35:43 <oerjan> JWinslow23: oh the wikipedia one. that's shorter yes. here in this channel, "the wiki" usually means the esolang wiki (also we all are disgusted by people calling wikipedia just "wiki" hth)
22:37:27 <olsner> (as we all know, the full name is wikiwikipedia)
22:39:05 -!- JWinslow23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:44:54 <oerjan> oh wait the wikipedia one isn't shorter, it was 111 chars.
22:52:55 <oerjan> the wikipedia one looks txtgen made, unlike the one on esolang.
22:54:00 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello World!
22:54:03 <EgoBot> 111 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [243]
22:55:19 <oerjan> ok now i had the same text and it's identical to wikipedia.
22:55:45 <Bike> indeterminism~
22:56:14 <oerjan> no, i just didn't write precisely Hello World! before.
22:56:32 <Bike> !bf_txtgen Hello World!
22:56:34 <EgoBot> 111 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [324]
22:56:58 <Bike> er, what's the bracketed number even do
22:57:07 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
22:57:25 <oerjan> Bike: number of execution steps, i think
22:57:44 <Bike> !bf_txtgen Hello World!
22:57:47 <EgoBot> 115 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>----.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [189]
22:58:04 <Bike> now that's more like it
22:58:43 <Bike> 243and 324 are different even though it looks like the code is the same...
22:59:40 <oerjan> maybe it's genetic algorithm steps, then.
23:05:46 * oerjan makes our wiki use the shorter version too.
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23:12:20 <kmc> are you here for nobel prize season?
23:14:07 <lexande> you can award your own nobel prizes when you can come up with an endowment big enough for a million dollar prize annually
23:14:22 <kmc> when I become a central bank you mean
23:14:38 <lexande> and get some scandinavian institution to agree to make the decisions
23:16:09 -!- JWinslow23 has joined.
23:17:40 <shachaf> what if i want to award micronobel prizes
23:18:07 <JWinslow23> Look at the wiki page for my language, TicTacToe. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tic_Tac_Toe
23:18:56 <lexande> kmc: how about the fact that nobel's will says the prize in literature is only for work in an idealistic direction
23:19:06 <kmc> LOOK! At the picture. SEE! The skull. The piece of skull removed.
23:19:10 <kmc> lexande: wtf
23:19:37 -!- Bike has joined.
23:20:56 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> or at least appear on Urban Dictionary <-- ok i see cocaine and marihuana, but not penis.
23:21:56 <Bike> perhaps cocaine is itself slang for penis
23:22:55 <HackEgo> cat: bdsmreclist: No such file or directory
23:22:55 <HackEgo> * oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
23:23:39 <kmc> whisky dick, cocaine cock
23:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> `run echo <oerjan> YOU are out of order. >> bdsmreclist
23:24:04 <HackEgo> bash: oerjan: No such file or directory
23:24:06 <lexande> this is clearly a strange place
23:24:12 <kmc> lexande: what were you expecting
23:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> `run echo "<oerjan> YOU are out of order." >> bdsmreclist
23:24:22 <kmc> `relcome lexande
23:24:25 <HackEgo> lexande: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:24:29 <oerjan> lexande: NOW you are realizing? wait are you new here.
23:24:44 <oerjan> i thought lexande looked familiar.
23:24:46 <HackEgo> 713) <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
23:24:58 <kmc> that quote is hella apropos
23:25:02 <lexande> oerjan: i've stuck my head in here a few times previously
23:25:09 <lexande> i recall it being less strange
23:25:11 <kmc> and you have always left with your head too!
23:25:17 <kmc> lexande: it's my civilizing influence
23:25:26 <oerjan> wait, poignant is not a synonym for apropos
23:25:29 <lexande> it may be strange but it doesn't seem dangerous
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23:25:39 <HackEgo> 588) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 618) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 689) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 692) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming l
23:25:40 <kmc> also I can do this now:
23:25:46 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
23:25:51 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o kmc.
23:25:51 <HackEgo> 939) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
23:26:20 <Phantom_Hoover> lexande, do these problems involve not having enough of something
23:26:21 <kmc> `run quote kmc | shuf
23:26:23 <HackEgo> 1044) <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners \ 1000) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms t
23:26:29 <kmc> `run quote kmc | shuf
23:26:32 <HackEgo> 724) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler") \ 999) <kmc> healthy immune system is a wonderful thing, you gotta take advantage <kmc> sometimes i eat food off the ground just to keep mine on its toes \ 956) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, are you just trying to pos
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23:27:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you seem to have been whooshed by that quote.
23:28:09 <lexande> oerjan: mostly i am a friend of kmc's from way back. i also know shachaf from Another Place
23:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oh is the joke that you'll have as much problem as you like
23:28:14 <HackEgo> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
23:28:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the joke is that it's an allusion to the regexp joke.
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23:29:17 <kmc> `run quote kmc | shuf
23:29:19 <HackEgo> 842) <kmc> i would subscribe to @zzo38_ebooks <zzo38> kmc: I have no ebooks which can subscribe to \ 865) <kmc> i like the idea that if you name your country a Soviet Republic you automatically get the right to call up Lenin on the telephone and complain about bathroom pranks \ 984) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> umm
23:30:18 <kmc> `quote 984
23:30:19 <HackEgo> 984) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
23:30:52 <kmc> my quote 984?
23:30:57 <kmc> that was kind of kmc.jerkcity.moed++
23:31:04 <Bike> because elliott's a nerdeeee
23:31:12 <kmc> oh why not
23:31:23 <kmc> oerjan started in with the `quote kmc
23:31:29 <kmc> but the earliest quotes are embarassing and bad
23:31:31 <kmc> so i had to shuf them
23:31:44 <oerjan> to get other embarassing quotes.
23:31:46 <kmc> `run quote lexande | wc -l
23:31:50 <kmc> oerjan: but not bad ones!
23:31:56 <Bike> it's beyond me why you would be embarassed by cocks
23:32:02 <lexande> i'm pretty happy with my one quote
23:32:16 <Bike> `quote lexande
23:32:18 <HackEgo> 939) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
23:32:31 <HackEgo> 939) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
23:32:32 <Bike> i was expecting "<lexande> i'm pretty happy with my one quote"
23:32:53 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
23:33:05 <Bike> tarski, as in "proved reals decideable" tarski, is underappreciated?
23:33:11 <lexande> Phantom_Hoover: but, Tarski undefinability of truth, and Tarski-Vaught test for elementary substructures, and stuff
23:33:19 <Bike> yeah what he said
23:33:26 <Bike> i mean banach's theorem is cool too but c'mon
23:33:40 <lexande> whereas only analysts care about banach mostly
23:34:00 <Bike> maybe you've been spending too much time in infinite-dimensional space, phantom
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23:34:15 <lexande> maybe you've been spending too much time around analysts
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23:34:28 <Bike> yeah, well, which one is closer to this channel
23:35:01 <lexande> what did we ever do to you
23:35:04 <Bike> programmers are confused and scared by reals, man
23:35:11 <kmc> that's because real numbers are /fucked up/
23:35:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well you see, since tarski and banach are both half of banach-tarski, they are also equivalent to the whole
23:35:25 <Bike> see like that *points and laughs at kmc*
23:35:57 <Bike> though speaking of unknown hyphenated mathematicians, i only looked up who bendixson was today
23:36:02 <Bike> and i already forgot
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23:36:21 <kmc> good story
23:36:38 <Bike> "As a young student Bendixson made his name by proving that every uncountable closed set can be partitioned into a perfect set (the Bendixson derivative of the original set) and a countable set." deep, apparently
23:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe he was just trying to get the name bendixson on things
23:37:24 <kmc> mathematicians: taking derivatives of things since 1680
23:37:33 <Bike> well he's mostly known for the "poincaré-bendixson theorem" and poincare is obviously famouser
23:37:56 <kmc> the curry-howard correspondance is the curry-howard-de Bruijn correspondance in .nl
23:38:11 <Bike> it's kind of weird to say someone's name is cool and then complain about their nationality
23:39:04 <Bike> you implied it
23:39:14 <Bike> implying is the new saying
23:39:58 <kmc> "You infer, I imply"
23:40:07 <lexande> Bike: oh, i only heard of him because of cantor-bendixson rank
23:40:21 <Bike> huh i have never heard of that
23:40:33 <Bike> maybe he's more famous than i realized..................
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23:41:01 <elliott> does the "s" actually do anything in "Bendixson"?
23:41:09 <elliott> or is it just like, okay, here's an "s" to help you get over that "x"
23:41:16 <Bike> it says he's son of bendix obviously
23:41:17 <Phantom_Hoover> probably copied other people's work and pretended he discovered it independently
23:41:43 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: well poincare-bendixson was him ironing out an earlier proof by poincare.
23:42:36 <Bike> oh, but it went the opposite way with "bendixson-dulac"
23:43:00 <Bike> maybe mathematics isn't actually driven by single geniuses and a bunch of hangers on........
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23:44:42 <Bike> elliott: seems "bengtsson" is another form
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23:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> maybe mathematics isn't actually driven by single geniuses and a bunch of hangers on........
23:46:17 <Phantom_Hoover> on this general topic can i have 3 minutes of hate for the wolframs
23:46:36 <lexande> elliott: i think the s does something, yes
23:47:33 <Bike> i saw a new kind of science in my uni bookstore, had a good chuckle
23:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> conrad's now going around doing TED speeches about how terrible maths education is and how we all have to fix it by teaching all the kids with mathematica
23:47:55 <Bike> i love ted talks. they're so bad
23:48:09 <lexande> also elliott you know alice atlas?
23:48:26 <Bike> "Wolfram has been a prominent proponent of 'Computer-Based Math'- a reform of mathematics education to make greater use of information technology. [4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]" hmm not sure i buy it better find some more sources
23:48:41 <elliott> lexande: yeah, for 7 years :)
23:48:48 <lexande> yay for the world being small
23:48:55 <Bike> «he argued that "Maths should be more practical and more conceptual, but less mechanical,"[19] and that "Calculating is the machinery of math - a means to an end."» is this even coherent
23:49:30 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: what i've seen of tedx has been way worse than even regular ted
23:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, keep in mind that vortex math had its big break at a tedx
23:49:57 <mnoqy> i've only seen the vortex math tedx
23:50:14 <kmc> some kind of joke about how singular geniuses are not invertible
23:50:16 <mnoqy> it was a good tedx though
23:50:22 <Bike> the last ted talk i saw was this neuroanatomist going on about the mystic experience she got from a hemorrage
23:50:29 <Bike> what do you even say to that
23:50:39 <Bike> "i'm sorry your brain blew up but i don't care"
23:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> have you all heard the story about my dad and vortex math
23:50:58 <mnoqy> i vaguely remember something about it but i could be imagining
23:51:39 <lexande> so generally when i hear about such hilariously bad talks they are TEDx but are there notable TED-proper instances?
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23:51:58 <kmc> ... is TEDx like UberX
23:52:04 <Bike> tedx is ted by third parties
23:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> and he was all like "this guy's onto something, i'm interested"
23:52:15 <kmc> a cut rate version of TED where they let random jerkoffs do it
23:52:32 <Bike> lexande: the one i'm talking about was ted proper actually. jill bolte taylor if you want to look it up
23:52:59 <lexande> uberx is fine, so is lyft, cab drivers are not really less jerkoff-y than randoms
23:53:49 <lexande> they are maybe better at driving but not necessarily
23:55:05 <kmc> how is lyft still legal
23:55:11 <kmc> are they really still relying on the "donation" thing
23:55:47 <lexande> aren't they legal the same way uberx is?
23:55:52 <kmc> which way is that
23:55:52 <Bike> what's lyft and why would it be illegal
23:56:10 <lexande> also the donation number is inscrutable
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23:56:26 <lexande> there's no price list or anything
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00:01:30 <lexande> so http://governmentdownforeveryoneorjustme.com/ reports the US and Syria as down
00:01:33 <lexande> but such places as Somalia and Afghanistan and Congo-Kinshasa and Afghanistan as up
00:02:20 <Bike> is afghanistan down? (twice?)
00:02:40 <kmc> where does it say about Syria
00:02:42 <kmc> is it geolocated?
00:02:56 <Bike> also somaliland is fairly stable, i even know a person living there in another irc channel
00:03:04 <lexande> var down = ["United States", "Syrian Arab Republic"]
00:03:22 <lexande> yeah somaliland is as fine as can be expected
00:03:25 <Bike> also the syrian government is still, i mean, functioning
00:03:31 <oerjan> how can congo-kinshasa be down we norwegians were just trying to negotiate with them
00:03:43 <Bike> they just had a coup a few months ago.
00:03:46 <lexande> i mean US diplomacy goes on too
00:03:56 <kmc> "as fine as can be expected" should be their tourism motto
00:04:37 <lexande> the Syrian government is significantly less functional than the US government at this point
00:05:04 <Bike> did you hear, assad said he's not sure whether he'll run for election next year, he'll only do it if the syrian people really want
00:06:23 <Bike> oh bother, i was thinking of the central african republic, not the congo
00:06:34 <kmc> "the people who are not shooting at me want me to run"
00:06:52 <oerjan> kmc: preferably as fast as he can
00:06:53 <lexande> whether centrafrique is down is also open to question
00:07:03 <lexande> it's in a sort of "responds to ping but slow as balls" state
00:07:13 <Bike> hey nice, the CAR's timezone is called WAT
00:07:16 <elliott> Bike: "I'll only let the people decide if they want me if they decide they want me"
00:07:29 <Bike> i'm paraphrasing ok :(
00:07:58 <Bike> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57606012/syria-president-bashar-assad-says-too-early-to-say-whether-hell-seek-re-election-next-year/
00:08:51 <kmc> that really sounds like an onion headline
00:09:07 <Bike> that's the exact reaction i've seen in the three places i've seen a link.
00:10:08 <Fiora> it seems like a nasty rhetorical trick to say "I'll only run if people want me" because you're implying that "if I run, people want me, you wouldn't want to vote against the people now would you"
00:10:42 <elliott> what if we had some kind of system where you could "vote" for the person you want
00:10:53 <elliott> and then people could run regardless if anyone wants them or not, and the "votes" of the "people" would decide "who the people want"
00:10:56 <Bike> i don't think it's really a problem, because when people say that they're usually already in kill-the-people 99%-election-results mode
00:11:00 <elliott> pretty innovative if you ask me!
00:11:08 <Bike> so i mean, what's a rhetorical triq or two
00:12:03 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to be a bit bothered at the idea of a Lisp having 'calling conventions' for Lisp functions, that can end up exposed to the user?
00:12:17 <Bike> what's bothering
00:12:29 <Bike> Also, what does that have to do with Syria
00:12:40 <Sgeo> The way Racket does function calls that have keywords
00:12:46 <Bike> lies acceptable for this question
00:12:59 <Sgeo> They expand into a call to the function with the list of keywords and keyword values as first two arguments
00:13:07 <Sgeo> It's a calling convention, of sorts, isn't it?
00:13:33 <Bike> isn't having keywords at all a calling convention
00:13:37 <Bike> or not having them, for that matter
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00:51:42 <Bike> do you require medical assistance
00:52:21 <lexande> at least, i don't think so
01:02:56 <kmc> odds are high
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01:13:20 <tswett> Hey guys, you know this? https://github.com/isomorphism/Delineate/blob/master/Control/Delineate.hs
01:13:38 <tswett> Of course you do. Everyone in this channel has now heard of that file dozens of times.
01:14:03 <tswett> Turns out that yeah, it's wrong. It allows you to derive "f ⊢ Unit" for all f, which you can't do in linear logic.
01:14:34 <tswett> Because "f ⊢ Unit" amounts to "forall r. (Unit r -> r) -> f r -> r", and "Unit r" is a unit type.
01:15:50 <tswett> Hetch, the module itself contains something which you can't do in LL.
01:16:03 <tswett> Nope, I was reading that wrong.
01:16:18 <tswett> It says "weakdist :: x ⊗ (y ⅋ z) ⊢ (x ⊗ y) ⅋ z", which I was reading as "weakdist :: x ⊗ (y & z) ⊢ (x ⊗ y) & z".
01:16:50 <oerjan> i imagine this would be much clearer without those white squares in it.
01:17:17 <tswett> White squares like ⊢, ⊗, and ⅋?
01:17:31 <tswett> All right, gimme a moment.
01:17:49 <tswett> It says "weakdist :: x (y z) (x y) z", which I was reading as "weakdist :: x (y z) (x y) z".
01:18:57 <oerjan> also, i could see & just fine.
01:19:59 <tswett> It says "weakdist :: x (y z) (x y) z", which I was reading as "weakdist :: x (y & z) (x y) & z".
01:20:47 <tswett> How's this look: 私のボオルは青いです
01:21:21 <oerjan> it looks like 私のボオルは青いです
01:22:11 <ion> So, what *is* ⅋?
01:22:35 <oerjan> it's par for the course
01:22:35 <tswett> Whoops, I spelled ボール wrong.
01:23:09 <kmc> "js.js is a JavaScript interpreter in JavaScript. Instead of trying to create an interpreter from scratch, SpiderMonkey is compiled into LLVM and then emscripten translates the output into JavaScript."
01:23:25 <tswett> ion: a process obeying the protocol "a ⅋ b" is a process that simultaneously obeys "a" and "b", switching between them as it desires. Pretty much.
01:24:17 <Lymia> Is that, uh, Haskell?
01:24:22 <tswett> Lymia: no, it's linear logic.
01:24:29 <kmc> no it's sparta
01:24:33 <tswett> There's a little rough spot there, though.
01:25:09 <Lymia> weakdist appears to be of kind (* -> *) -> ((* -> *) -> * -> *) -> * -> *
01:25:52 <tswett> If flow enters an "a ⅋ b" through the "a" side of it, then flow can't exit through the "b" side, because "b" hasn't been entered yet; flow can only exit through a protocol that it's entered.
01:26:37 <tswett> At least, in theory, that's how it *would* behave, if things were as simple as "a process that ... as it desires".
01:29:16 <tswett> So here's the more complicated and more correct point of view: a process obeying the protocol "a ⅋ b" is a protocol that will obey "a" and is in the midst of obeying "b", or vice versa, and can switch between which one it's in the midst of obeying at will.
01:29:20 <tswett> This doesn't make any sense, does it.
01:29:28 <tswett> Lemme give an example.
01:30:46 <tswett> So, uh, let's say that a VM3-Coke is a vending machine that has the property that when you push its button, it dispenses a Coke, but only the first three times you push it. Likewise with a VM3-Pepsi.
01:31:49 <tswett> A "VM3-Coke ⅋ VM3-Pepsi" is a machine that's a combination of a VM3-Coke, and a VM3-Pepsi-whose-button-has-already-been-pushed-but-which-has-not-yet-dispensed-a-Pepsi. Or the same but with Coke and Pepsi swapped.
01:32:33 <tswett> So, let's suppose the Pepsi button is the one that's already been pushed. The combination machine isn't going to dispense anything until you push the Coke button. When you do, it could dispense either a Coke or a Pepsi, as it desires.
01:33:35 <tswett> Let's suppose that it chooses to dispense a Pepsi. Now it's a VM3-Coke combined with a VM2-Pepsi, such that the Coke button has already been pushed. Now it's not going to do anything until you push the Pepsi button.
01:34:03 <myname> welcome to #esoteric, where theoretical computer science is explained using everyday stuff
01:40:07 <Bike> this doesn't seem like a very good vending machine.
01:42:09 <Bike> i mean, i don't use soda machines, maybe i'm naïve here
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02:28:53 <Sgeo> Is there any language that I have become interested in that didn't have at least one non-me person in here interested in it as well?
02:33:25 <Sgeo> Hmm, probably. Although someone here could be interested and just not in the chat, because it's non-IRC
02:33:29 <Sgeo> (Stackoverflow Chat)
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03:36:32 <shachaf> lexande: what brings you back here
03:37:49 <shachaf> well, i guess i can preänswer a question like that as far as lexande goes
03:41:40 <lexande> shachaf: people need a place to go?
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03:42:22 <shachaf> Oh, it's about that, isn't it.
03:43:04 <Bike> is this gossip
03:43:19 <lexande> i'm not aware of any gossip
03:43:31 <lexande> and i'm not sure what preänswer shachaf was alluding too
03:44:21 <Bike> the "that" is gossip i'm thinking
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03:44:48 <lexande> the fact that people need a place to go is gossip?
03:45:03 <Bike> no, the thing shachaf said is! possibly.
03:45:56 <Fiora> I don't know anything except vague rumors of things involving kmc and lexande and alice and other people
03:47:21 <Fiora> um... third hand or something <.<
03:51:54 <Bike> what is truly important in this life.
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06:42:38 <kmc> i've never met alice
06:42:54 <S1> Who's that?
06:43:01 <kmc> don't worry about it.
06:43:08 <kmc> there was a convo going on before you arrived
06:43:23 <S1> I thought so. I'll look it up in the log
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06:55:07 <lexande> kmc: maybe you should come to NYC sometime
06:57:23 <kmc> I think I have lower affinity for aeroplanes than I used to :/
06:57:29 <kmc> but still, yes
06:58:02 <shachaf> you could take the TRAAAAAIN
07:04:45 <kmc> I could Work From Train though
07:05:06 <lexande> dunno how the 4G coverage is along that route
07:05:51 <kmc> i have fewer Gs than that anyway
07:05:58 <kmc> though I should fix that before such a trip
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07:13:18 <lexande> i thought you had a sprint LTE thing
07:14:00 <shachaf> doesn't your cellular phone have that many Gs just in its name
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07:17:21 <kmc> yes it's the EVO 4G but in this case 4G = WiMAX = sucks
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07:23:52 <shachaf> how does it compare to HSPA+
07:24:20 <kmc> i don't know about... phones, and stuff
07:26:14 <fizzie> I was under the impression that HSPA+ was just 3.75G.
07:27:10 <shachaf> you can round that up to 4G
07:27:16 <shachaf> you can also round 3G to 4G
07:29:04 <olsner> hmm, some guy on the osdev forums seems to consistently use "winchester" as the word for hard drive
07:29:13 <kmc> haha that's oldschool
07:31:41 <olsner> "The IBM 3340 Direct Access Storage Facility, code-named Winchester, was introduced in March 1973 for use with IBM System/370."
07:32:22 <kmc> i thought it was supposed to be something about them being as loud as a Winchester rifle
07:33:27 <olsner> apparently because it was 30+30MB and .30-30 is a rifle model
07:42:55 <kmc> what is meant by "30+30MB"
07:43:21 <olsner> two disk packs of 30 MB that could be swapped, or something
07:44:37 <fizzie> There was also a 3.9G something.
07:44:42 <kmc> "an access time of 25 milliseconds"
07:45:11 <kmc> amusingly that number has barely improved in 40 years, if you exclude SSDs
07:46:20 <fizzie> (For Western Digital, even though presumably most of the disks so called haven't even seen one.)
07:47:25 <fizzie> "The name 'Winchester' and some derivatives are still common in some non-English speaking countries to generally refer to any hard disks (e.g. Hungary, Russia)," claims Wikipedia.
07:48:24 <kmc> "A merevlemez (az egykori angol elnevezés alapján winchester-nek is), mely az adatokat mágnesezhető réteggel bevont lemezeken tárolja, melyet a forgó lemez fölött mozgó író/olvasó fej ír vagy olvas."
07:58:00 <olsner> cray x-mp came with an (optional) 1GB/s SSD (the way I read it, 2GB/s if you use both I/O channels)
07:58:10 <olsner> ... holds up surprisingly well compared to modern SSDs (though of course that SSD's probably the size of a room, the prize of a bus and only 1GB big)
07:58:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: I've heard 'winsu' once or twice but I guess the heretical 'kovo' is the Standard™ nowadays.
08:00:03 <kmc> which language?
08:17:34 <kmc> it's weird to think that such a ubiquitous word as "software" was a kind of punny coinage 50 years ago
08:18:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't think I've heard "winsu" ever. ("kovo", yes.)
08:19:16 <fizzie> Some have strong opinions on how the latter should not be used for anything else than the building material.
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13:05:51 <boily> fizzie: people use it?
13:07:36 <boily> (besides, the main dev seems to be one hell of a grumpy person.)
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13:10:18 <fizzie> I wasn't implying that.
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15:13:47 <HackEgo> JWinslow23 is a Wisconsinite who doesn't give a BF.
15:14:11 <JWinslow23> I will soon make a truth machine in TicTacToe!
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15:44:58 <Bike> @tell lexande http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFhR1fKWG0
15:48:35 <Bike> what inspires me is teaching JavaScript to African refugees
15:50:14 <lexande> my sister was talking about that recently
15:50:37 <ion> He has some other great stuff as well.
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16:07:08 <mnoqy> http://safr.kingfeatures.com/idn/etv/zone/xml/content.php?file=aHR0cDovL3NhZnIua2luZ2ZlYXR1cmVzLmNvbS9CbG9uZGllLzIwMTMvMTAvQmxvbmRpZS4yMDEzMTAwM185MDAuZ2lm hm
16:07:54 <Bike> I don't know how to make it giant.
16:11:19 <Bike> have you ever had sea cheesy baked potatoes
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16:19:30 <Bike> nice, the guy after him completely seriously said that "history shows that the countries that explore have the highest standard of living"
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16:47:37 <asie> somehow by only being on this channel once a year
16:47:39 <asie> i got into the pdf
16:47:40 <asie> <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
16:47:45 <asie> hahaha i was like, 10 then
16:49:13 <boily> back from lunch, and the shanty wasn't half bad.
16:50:02 <Bike> `pastelogs addquote.*asie
16:50:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9344
16:51:19 <Bike> asie: are you twelve
16:51:29 <asie> i was actually 14
16:51:59 <Bike> `run dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp'
16:53:01 <Bike> asie: i can't keep track of everyone's ages. i just assume everyone is a lot older than elliott, until i run into other evidence. usually a while after i find the evidence too though.
16:54:30 <boily> asie: I had much fun creating the pdf.
16:54:53 <boily> elliott: are you a lot younger than I?
17:08:37 <ais523> I think there's plenty of evidence that elliott is exactly the same age as elliott
17:08:44 <ais523> rather than being a lot older
17:09:05 <ais523> laws of maths, I guess
17:09:20 <Bike> That's deduction, not induction from experimental evidence.
17:09:24 <Bike> I'm afraid I'm not convinced.
17:10:07 <boily> the concerned subject isn't very responsive.
17:10:38 <lexande> there's a huge amount of evidence for the reflexive property of equality / the antireflexive property of "older than"
17:10:56 <lexande> 've met loads of people and not one of them was a lot older than themselves
17:11:12 <boily> fungot: are you antireflective?
17:11:12 <fungot> boily: extend a protective arm/ symbian/ series60. :p diamondie well, isn't that enough? ummm......what were we talking about again? huh....really?
17:11:14 <Bike> You shouldn't generalize from people you've met to people I've met.
17:11:33 <kmc> @tell JWinslow23 you should contribute your truth machine to https://github.com/ticklemynausea/gobsprogram
17:11:42 <Bike> I mean you live in like, Texas, right? Total other side of the world. Things are different here.
17:11:54 <boily> lexande: what kind of people do you meet? are met people human? do you like roast beef? what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
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17:16:47 <lexande> boily: {iowa, tanzania, cambridge, caltech, boston, new york, CMU, random traveling} people; yes (to first approximation); ambivalent; (40.80, -73.94) and 90kg
17:21:28 * boily falls down from his chair “A first! Complete and useful information!”
17:22:19 <Bike> no oxford comma though
17:22:43 <kmc> cambridge comma
17:22:49 <Gregor> Oxford commas are for losers.
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17:23:26 <boily> 40, -74... boston?
17:23:43 <kmc> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.80,-73.94
17:24:39 <kmc> boston is like 42,-71
17:25:04 <kmc> boily: I think I gave you complete and useful information too
17:25:12 <lexande> boily: what is your origin story?
17:25:57 <boily> kmc: my memory is bad.
17:27:44 <boily> lexande: grew up in Québec City, now in Montréal. I like orange things and phở. I created some langs. imho, my best is aubergine.
17:27:46 <kmc> do you want my current coördinates or the place where I habitually sleep or what
17:28:26 <boily> kmc: ideally the weighed average of your usual coördinates, but what I have now should do the job. I'm just missing your body weigh, though.
17:29:28 <kmc> my mass is about 98 kg at the moment
17:29:55 <kmc> it's decreasing slowly (although not yesterday; free cookies)
17:45:18 <lexande> boily: a weighted average of my coordinates could be quite different
17:45:38 <lexande> and would take a while to work out
17:46:23 <kmc> do you have the "where i slept this year" chart
17:47:02 <boily> no, no info yet on Sleeping Places. could be interesting, if not creepy.
17:47:06 <lexande> no, i only made one for 2010
17:47:32 <kmc> can i see the one for 2010
17:48:17 <lexande> when i'm next at a keyboard
17:48:37 <kmc> C++ can inline a caller-provided lambda into the callee
17:48:45 <elliott> lexande is currently communicating via smoke signal
17:48:48 <boily> fungot: do you sleep? are you like irresponsible humans who always move?
17:48:48 <fungot> boily: so can it be? it's a pointless concept of " metacity distance" is all a silly argument. the only change that might be
17:49:52 <kmc> we're talking about how Rust should obtain this power
17:51:48 <lexande> kmc: actually http://ugcs.net/~arapp/slept.png
17:52:52 <elliott> this image is just designed to get me to stand my laptop up like a book right
17:53:43 <lexande> i copied the design from someone else, i can't speak to her intentions
17:54:15 <lexande> elliott: what is your origin story?
17:54:18 <kmc> Inspect Element -> Style Editor -> New -> img {transform: rotate(90deg);)}
17:55:42 <elliott> lexande: I was born and moved around on an island a bit and haven't yet noticed myself being dead
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17:56:19 <kmc> elliott: The British Experience
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17:56:39 <kmc> i,i "i can't speak to her intestines"
18:00:41 <boily> imnqso, speaking to intestines, be they yours or someone else's, is not a good idea.
18:00:50 <Taneb> Alas, my programming lectures are pretty... basic
18:01:05 <mnoqy> did you expect otherwise
18:02:59 <lexande> elliott: are you one of the hexham people
18:03:25 <mnoqy> that's quite the question
18:03:28 <elliott> I think I am the only Hexham person left
18:03:54 <boily> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LastOfHisKind
18:04:34 <Taneb> I am a failure to hexhamkind
18:04:56 <lexande> i have never been to hexham. i've been to wylam, that's on the way sort of
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18:05:40 <Taneb> Wylam is a bit past Hexham
18:06:41 <lexande> i mean if i were going to hexham, i'd presumably fly to either london or newcastle, and the train to hexham would take me via wylam
18:07:39 <elliott> you know way too much about north-east england for your own good
18:08:43 <lexande> they got that tyne and wear metro
18:08:49 <Taneb> Oh wait, I was thinking of Warden
18:11:00 <Taneb> The Tyne and Wear Metro goes nowhere near Hexham
18:11:23 <boily> to know of north-eastern places in the world is an essential survival skill.
18:13:49 <kmc> I'm disappointed with myself for never visiting Bletchley Park
18:15:06 <kmc> I guess I wasn't that into crypto until a yearish ago
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18:20:16 <lexande> Taneb: i know, but elliott expanded the scope of discussion to the whole northeast
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18:21:43 <lexande> kmc: i have more reason to be disappointed with myself for never visiting bletchley park
18:21:45 <Taneb> Why do you know about this
18:22:18 <kmc> because you've been in london more?
18:22:21 <Taneb> Did you know that the Tyne and Wear Metro is one of only two metros in the world to have a station on the same line in two different ways?
18:23:16 <kmc> how do you mean
18:23:35 <ais523> Taneb: is the London Underground the other one (Euston), or did I misunderstand the restriction?
18:24:29 <lexande> Taneb: it would be better to say self-intersecting, self-paralleling things are more common (e.g. Circle Line at Paddington)
18:24:50 <lexande> ais523: the two Northern Line branches aren't really the same line
18:24:55 <kmc> i was thinking of the fact that there are two Hammersmith-bound platforms on the circle line at Edgware Road
18:25:24 <kmc> (not to be confused with the other Edgware Road station next door)
18:25:26 <lexande> anyway, Tyne&Wear and Vancouver Skytrain half self-intersection
18:25:28 <ais523> lexande: well it fits the restriction of connecting to the same line two different ways better than most situations
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18:29:37 <lexande> RandstadRail, if you count that, also has such a pretzel topology in Zoetermeer
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18:37:05 <boily> is a half self-intersection possible?
18:38:46 <lexande> well, maybe we can claim these are all half-self-intersection
18:39:14 <lexande> since in each case there are two lines sharing track in one part of the station, and only one of them loops back around to the other part of the station
18:50:14 <lexande> also singapore is building a pretzel-like self-intersecting line but it seems there will be no transfer station at the crossing
18:53:41 <boily> I reread your assertion. no station, therefore no transfer. I was puzzled over the fact that you couldn't change lines at a station.
18:57:42 <Taneb> I have an audition tomorrow
18:57:51 <Taneb> I am auditioning for Jesus Christ Superstar
19:04:58 <fizzie> I went to Bletchley Park (even got the T-shirt) while visiting London in 2011; 'twas an interesting place.
19:05:03 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131008-bp.jpg <- that's from there.
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19:07:43 <boily> darn. and there I naïvely hoped that the picture contained fizzie himself.
19:07:59 <boily> btw, 5 bit wide paper: is that baudot?
19:07:59 <fizzie> It's the source of fungot. (It's not.)
19:08:00 <fungot> fizzie: try a new tack..." cases where test is doing something to x? else..."
19:08:30 <fizzie> I think it could well be.
19:09:11 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131008-bp2.jpg <- that's where it's from, if it helps.
19:12:02 <fizzie> Oh and I think I may have pasted this one before for obvious reasons: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131008-bp3.jpg
19:12:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the one we've got on channel is a preceding or a succeeding model.
19:13:14 <boily> I think it all depends if he's older or younger than himself.
19:18:24 <fizzie> And then there was this ridiculous thing https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131008-bp4.jpg how they kept people from pressing that button I'll never know.
19:22:49 <boily> `relcome bicyclidine
19:22:53 <HackEgo> bicyclidine: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:23:01 <boily> disregard the welcome. you didn't see nothing.
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19:30:34 <boily> wikipédia doesn't have bicyclidine, but suggests eticyclidine → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eticyclidine
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19:59:08 <impomatic> Does anyone fancy typing this listing into a C64 emulator? http://concoctedlogic.com/wordpress/commodore-64-core-war/
20:04:46 <fizzie> I'm sure you could OCR that. (In not many more magnitudes of time than it'd take to type it, but it's the principle that matters.)
20:08:49 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/DJLC <- tessearct with no tuning. "Not too shabby, eh?"
20:09:09 <fizzie> Some of the words are even correct.
20:11:45 <boily> that looks like a weird glitchy fungot remix...
20:11:45 <fungot> boily: thanks anyway dude :) looks like a guy
20:11:54 <fungot> boily: do you see what i mean is, if your messages happen to go into a particular package?
20:12:18 <boily> fungot: you have packages?
20:12:18 <fungot> boily: by " imports", do you want
20:12:28 <boily> fungot: oh. so you're a python program in disguise.
20:12:28 <fungot> boily: bugs are tasty.') it plainly refuses to work though
20:12:42 <boily> fungot: well, that's what bugs are for.
20:13:14 <boily> fizzie: you lied to us! fungot's written in python!
20:13:50 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/OchK <- cuneiform --dotmatrix
20:13:59 <fizzie> boily: Maybe that's just what it wants you to think?
20:14:47 <boily> fungot: do you trust fizzie's opinion on your true identity?
20:14:56 <olsner> fungot: are you really an "it"? you shouldn't let fizzie talk about you like this
20:14:57 <fungot> olsner: they're have better latency but worse throughput ( unlikely) or it wasn't taught properly ( likely) the reporter is mixed up
20:15:41 <boily> olsner: indeed. the Reporter Fizzie is mixed up, and wasn't taught properly.
20:17:54 <fizzie> Well, just for completeness... gocr: http://sprunge.us/UeHB
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20:24:52 <olsner> fungot: can you OCR the code? fizzie doesn't seem to be succeeding
20:24:52 <fungot> olsner: so i imagined the correct thing to do indeed :)
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21:07:05 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/Mixed-language-link-time-optimization is really cool
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21:07:44 <kmc> cross-language inlining and dead store elimination
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21:30:01 <olsner> hmm, I haven't made debugging particularly easy for me... my "kernel panic" thingy just prints the line number in hex
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21:36:30 <oerjan> hm the nobel prize went to the people who invented the higgs particle, not to any of those who showed it actually existed. i guess that's usual...
21:37:23 <oerjan> although i wonder what they'll do if, as seems inevitable eventually, a theory isn't proved until after all the theorizers are dead...
21:37:55 <oerjan> string theory might end up that way.
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21:39:33 <oerjan> they _haven't_ given any nobel prizes for string theory, have they
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21:47:21 <Bike> physicists should be more like biologists, clearly
21:48:20 <oerjan> fizzie: what _does_ kovo mean, originally? (also winsu i guess?)
21:48:41 <oerjan> gt only gives "hardware"
21:48:44 <Bike> it's funny how people have been pointing out that the 1926 nobel prize went for research that is actually completely wrong
21:50:01 <shachaf> oerjan: is it true that both syllables of "ørjan" are stressed
21:51:38 <Bike> in physiology, i meant
21:51:57 <Bike> guy got the prize for showing that cancer was caused by this little worm thingie
21:52:40 <Bike> oh, a nematode, huh
21:53:00 <oerjan> shachaf: hm it's in the second pitch accent, which i guess has the two syllables more "equal" than the first one, although i'm not sure they're completely equal.
21:53:38 <fizzie> oerjan: It's obvious short for "kovalevy" (lit. "hard(sheet/slab/disc/record)"), which properly speaking should mean a kind of a building material (particleboard, fiberboard, HDF; the details are a bit hazy) but is used widely (arguably incorrectly) for a computer hard disk too. (For which the (again arguably) proper word is "kiintolevy".)
21:53:52 <shachaf> oerjan: what, i was told that norwegian was easy
21:54:30 <oerjan> shachaf: to pronounce?
21:55:48 <oerjan> well it's analytic, so not _too_ many inflections, but it does have gender.
21:56:36 <oerjan> so maybe a _little_ harder than english in grammar. not quite as awful spelling.
21:56:59 <oerjan> easier than german grammar.
21:57:01 <shachaf> what!! what is a power series of a language
21:58:23 <Bike> it's easy enough to take the derivative of a language
21:59:17 <fizzie> The Institute (for the Languages (of Finland)) seems to accept "kovalevy" as a synonym of "kiintolevy". But not everyone does.
22:02:12 <oerjan> well kiinto means "solid", so clearly kiintolevy should mean a _solid_ disk, i.e. SSD.
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22:03:18 <oerjan> oh wait there's no disk in an SSD
22:10:39 <oerjan> 17:11:12: <boily> fungot: are you antireflective?
22:10:39 <oerjan> 17:11:12: <fungot> boily: extend a protective arm/ symbian/ series60. :p diamondie well, isn't that enough? ummm......what were we talking about again? huh....really?
22:10:39 <fungot> oerjan: let me guess: it creates the bf programs out there are made from c, java, or python, or ruby.))
22:10:40 <fungot> oerjan: invalid syntax define a way to not explicitly call eval?
22:11:02 <oerjan> it tried to reflect, and was repulsed. i'd say yes.
22:11:45 <oerjan> fungot: i'm not sure there are converters from all of those.
22:11:45 <fungot> oerjan: a windows driver loader thingy? yes, guile itself is slow too.)
22:13:38 <fizzie> oerjan: "levy" does not imply a (round) disc in Finnish, though, and SSD's are generally more or less slab-like, so it still fits.
22:17:24 <fizzie> "SSD-massamuisti" is what fi.wikipedia calls a SSD.
22:17:35 <oerjan> fizzie: good, good. your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to get all finns to follow this more logical terminology.
22:17:58 <fizzie> (And the "D" could be for "drive" too. Though how logical is that?)
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22:18:59 <oerjan> (not the SSD-massamuisti one)
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22:53:18 <oerjan> <elliott> this image is just designed to get me to stand my laptop up like a book right <-- ouch my neck
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23:09:45 <oerjan> > cycle "IT'S ALIVE MWAHAHAHA "
23:09:46 <lambdabot> "IT'S ALIVE MWAHAHAHA IT'S ALIVE MWAHAHAHA IT'S ALIVE MWAHAHAHA IT'S ALIVE ...
23:10:19 <fungot> shachaf: i was talking about /real/ ants. i'll have to take
23:10:34 <fungot> shachaf: we have mutable fnord, though. that whole code-is-data thing doesn't mean that they do
23:12:32 <kmc> but for chips and for freedom I could die
23:13:45 <oerjan> fungot: you _don't_ want your fnords to mutate. trust me.
23:13:46 <fungot> oerjan: number42 annotated 308 with " expansion by gambit of previous code" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ 490
23:13:46 <fungot> shachaf: just as you don't let on, you're jafar hello, sailor
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01:49:47 <Sgeo> "Stock market crash kills 49"
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01:52:28 <kmc> the US government tends to value human life around $6M - $9M
01:52:46 <kmc> so if the stock market destroys $500M of value then I guess that's as bad as killing 49 people
01:52:59 <kmc> of course it's hard to say how much value is really destroyed (or created!) from a huge notional shift in prices
01:53:58 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sw9Fh6uk4Q
01:54:58 <kmc> also in a country where your healthcare is tied to your job, it's pretty easy for a stock market crash to directly result in people dying
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05:03:49 <Sgeo> In case anyone wants to know what your browser does with https sites with revoked certificates:
05:03:50 <Sgeo> https://lavabit.com/?8-oct-2013
05:04:08 <Sgeo> Chrome won't let me past
05:19:45 <oerjan> assuming you cannot fake a revocation for someone else (a tall assumption, i know) that seems reasonable - the genuine site owner has no reason to use the old one, so it's essentially _sure_ to be malicious.
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05:30:41 <coppro> fizzie: what kind of "r" is the finnish one?
05:30:51 <coppro> I know it rolls, but where
05:31:17 <Bike> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2071 haha what the christ
05:46:01 <fizzie> I believe it's "officially" an alveolar trill, the plain IPA /r/. I don't know how to describe it in more detail.
05:46:57 <Bike> http://atashi.org/disorientation/ i feel this sums up my svg experience, somehow
05:47:18 <fizzie> (Have to go, bus to catch.)
05:51:43 <kmc> there was a more recent issue (published at Black Hat this year) relating to timing attacks on SVG filters applied to cross-domain iframes
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06:12:57 <HackEgo> olist 923: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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07:07:52 <kmc> Diacritical Marks and Peculiar Characters
07:09:58 <fizzie> Is that a children's book? It sounds like one.
07:10:34 <kmc> U+115CE SIDDHAM SECTION MARK WITH RAYS AND DOTTED TRIPLE CRESCENTS
07:10:35 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/mrT3Aoa.png
07:12:18 <kmc> new in ISO/IEC 10646:2014
07:12:39 <kmc> the Universal Character Set
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07:14:22 <fizzie> There should be some kind of a project that would extend Unicode (up to some reasonable limit) in all cases where there's e.g. some amount that can vary. For example, the above would immediately lead to SIDDHAM SECTION MARK WITH RAYS AND DOTTED QUADRUPLE CRESCENTS and so on, for (let's say) 1..10 crescents. Both DOTTED and not.
07:15:08 <fizzie> Oh, it exists already.
07:16:06 <fizzie> Oh, it doesn't. It's just the rayless undotted version goes up higher.
07:16:21 <fizzie> Well, there you go, then. All combinations all the time, that's my motto.
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07:43:00 <kmc_> is anyone else having trouble accessing EC2 machines and/or http://amazon.com
07:50:27 <kmc> welp my ISP refuses to talk to amazon for some reason
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07:52:49 <kmc> fuck that guy
07:55:31 <shachaf> > (compare `on` length) "kmc_" "kmc"
07:55:47 <shachaf> lambdabot more like lambdanot
07:55:55 <shachaf> (the joke is lambdabot is not here)
07:56:37 <shachaf> another joke is that i'm tired
07:56:42 * kmc hugs shachaf
07:59:37 <shachaf> let's see you say that to my face!!
08:00:11 <kmc> i would...
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08:00:44 <shachaf> should i move to noe valley
08:01:13 <kmc> why noe valley in particular?
08:01:27 <shachaf> well, the real question is, why noe
08:02:05 <shachaf> is it a good place "knows nothing about san francisco"
08:14:57 <kmc> san francisco is a good plac
08:15:10 <kmc> are you looking at an apartment in noe valley
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08:19:06 <shachaf> i'm not looking at anything right now
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10:49:15 <Taneb> I've got an audition this evening
10:53:07 <fizzie> Remember to grip firmly both electrodes of the e-meter.
10:53:33 <fizzie> Oh, audition, not auditing.
10:55:41 <Taneb> The play is apparently a darker version of Jesus Christ Superstar
10:59:02 <mnoqy> ????? how can you be darker than jesus christ superstar
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11:01:14 <Taneb> I don't know but they have a pretty big budget
11:14:00 <Taneb> I was going to ask you guys a question
11:14:37 <Taneb> I've got an algebraic proof that p | (p & q) == p but it is a bit long
11:16:14 <Taneb> Is there a nice short proof?
11:18:18 <Taneb> I'd rather do it with one case
11:18:29 <Taneb> And my proof with distribution requires ten steps
11:18:33 <Taneb> And I require food, bbl
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11:19:20 <myname> 1: p = true: true | x = true, p | (p & q) = true = p
11:19:48 <myname> 2. p = false: false | x = x, p | (p & q) = p & q = false & q = false = p
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14:20:18 <Bike> kmc: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/10/09/foot_soldier_declares_war_on_sanctimonious_cyclists_dimanno.html "For you to read with a straight face"
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14:23:47 <boily> I thought there weren't bike lanes in the big T.
14:26:22 <Taneb> I managed to read that with naught but a single isolated smirl
14:31:57 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: can I ~duck smirl?
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14:37:32 <Phantom_Hoover> so far it's been p. boring so i'm planning on piping the magma sea over it
14:40:44 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: thanks!
14:41:03 * boily kicks ~duck in the duckads.
14:41:22 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: use caverns to get wood
14:41:44 <Taneb> If you have access to sand you can use three wood to make a screw pump
14:41:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd need steel and a standing military to get into the caverns safely
14:41:55 <Taneb> A magma-safe one, at that
14:42:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i have plentiful iron, i'll use that for the pump stack itself
14:43:26 <boily> that sounds like a weird crossover between minecraft, DF and catan...
14:43:46 <Taneb> boily: it is, in a 0:1:0 ratio
14:44:40 <Taneb> I need to work on my fortress
14:44:51 <Taneb> But my computer is a couple of miles away
14:45:18 <Taneb> And I need to practice for my audition in an hour and a half
14:50:25 <Taneb> I need to set an ssh server on my computer and figure out how to get to it from here
14:50:51 <Taneb> Actually, is there any way I could play DF graphically remotely?
14:51:07 <Taneb> Preferably installing as little as possible on the client PC
14:52:02 <boily> can you do X11 forwarding with putty?
14:52:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (dfhack is now absolutely mandatory btw, it incorporates a heap of unofficial bugfixes)
14:53:01 <Taneb> dfterm looks promising
14:54:02 <myname> dfhack didn't work without x, did it?
14:57:09 <Taneb> Huh, dfterm is written in Haskell
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14:57:34 <myname> it is, but it spawns df in a new window iirc
14:58:03 <Taneb> I'll see if I can set that up tonight
14:59:01 <Phantom_Hoover> myname, dfhack works on windows and in general works by adding hooks to libSDL, so...?
14:59:32 <myname> i want to play df via ssh
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15:01:55 <fizzie> Windows X servers are the bests.
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15:02:37 <fizzie> The university had a campus-wide license to one of the proprietary ones, possibly Exceed. Not sure if they still do.
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15:04:50 <JWinslow23> Keep wanting your morning dew...You're my pizza man, my pizza man. I like spastic golden toys. Keep wanting your morning dew... This huge pizza's made with cheese and broccoli!
15:06:22 <boily> fungot: do you sing?
15:06:22 <fungot> boily: what's an ircat, i wonder... if i remember what they mean.) poor me.
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15:09:40 <Taneb> Also, I do not like the Python language
15:09:47 <Taneb> I used to, but now I do not
15:10:02 <boily> why the falling out?
15:10:35 <Taneb> Because I didn't touch it for like two years and now I am being forced to
15:10:52 <JWinslow23> ♫♪♩♬♫♪♩♬♫♪♩♬♫♪♩♬♫♪♩♬♫♪♩♬ Everybody sing!
15:11:14 <Taneb> I can cope, but watching the person next to me debug his code only to find that he had mispelt current_converter halfway down is kinda saddening
15:11:25 <Taneb> Also I couldn't figure out how to serialize data
15:12:04 <boily> JWinslow23: you should get kmc to form a choir.
15:12:29 <Taneb> boily: the pickle docs are confusing
15:12:44 <HackEgo> 990) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
15:13:11 <boily> Taneb: I know I had to serialize data a long time ago. I completely forgot how I managed that.
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15:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit, the logistics in this fortress are way too fucked to get anything done
15:14:57 <boily> Taneb: if you don't have no binary blobs, you could use json. otherwise, probably something along the lines of protobufs and/or *gasp* ASN.1.
15:17:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:20:25 <HackEgo> 990) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
15:21:47 <boily> building out dfterm3. good thing the sandboxes exist in 1.18. fscking stupid de câl*sse de annoying cabal dependency hell de maudit qu'ils sont pas foutus d'avoir réglé ça messemble que c't'évident.
15:22:30 <myname> JWinslow23: is your language specified yet?
15:22:40 <Taneb> Cabal dependency hell it changed the language boily was speaking in
15:26:16 <Taneb> Audition in less than an hour
15:27:22 <boily> it's only an audition. what can go wrong? (modulo your head suddenly quantum tunneling into an infinity of brainfuck derivatives, but that's easily cured by two Aspirins and a glass of Arcturan mega-water.)
15:29:16 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: Jesus Christ Superstar
15:30:36 <Taneb> I am just auditioning in general
15:30:49 <Taneb> Although I would not mind recieving the role of Jesus Christ
15:31:44 <myname> JWinslow23: somewhere public?
15:32:31 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: if I get the role will you come to York to watch it
15:33:17 <Taneb> Do you know where Hexham is relative to Edinburgh?
15:34:01 <Taneb> Because Edinburgh -> York is twice that vector
15:34:39 <Taneb> Well, do you know where Coventry is relative to Edinburgh?
15:35:24 <Taneb> It's Coventry -> Edinburgh + 2 * Edinburgh -> Hexham
15:36:21 <JWinslow23> Yes, myname, at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tic_Tac_Toe
15:36:22 <Taneb> hope you like vectors
15:37:17 <myname> so, still a bf derivate
15:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> wait, york is on the train line i take from coventry to edinburgh
15:38:06 <Taneb> myname: my first language was a bf second derivative
15:38:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: cool
15:38:20 <JWinslow23> Don't know how to make a stack-based 8 command language to base it off of.
15:38:47 <Taneb> Anyway, I am going to find the audition room now
15:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> what if you played against some fixed ai or something and its moves corresponded to the executed instructions
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16:58:19 <boily> back from lunch, and the espresso was manly.
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17:25:45 <kmc> GNU Make 4.0 is out and it has an embedded Scheme interpreter now: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/make-w32/2013-10/msg00021.html
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17:38:34 <HackEgo> olist 923: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
17:39:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
17:41:25 <boily> @tell oerjan why did you pastold me? (pastelogs + @tell, conflagrated)
17:44:37 <boily> Gregor: ↑ IEEEEEEEEUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHGHGHGHGHGHGHHLHLHLHLHLHLHLHLHL!
17:45:03 <boily> (that was the Sound of the Stance of the Caribou, the Deadliest Candian-Fu Technique!)
17:50:37 <Gregor> What are you screaming at me about?
17:51:54 <shachaf> ais523: Sgeo already `olisted.
17:52:13 <ais523> shachaf: yeah but I wasn't here at th time
17:52:14 <shachaf> Maybe we should put something in HackEgo for this case.
17:52:16 <boily> Gregor: aren't you the lambdabot channeler, or am I grossly mistaken?
17:52:21 <ais523> shachaf: I did suggest that last tim
17:52:58 <shachaf> Yes, the emphasis was on "should". Maybe we *should* do that, like you suggested.
17:53:24 <shachaf> But implementing this sort of thing in HackEgo is annoying.
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17:55:59 <ais523> is glogbot working again yet?
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18:19:59 <ais523> proggit are criticising GNU Make for adopting != as an assignment operator
18:20:10 <ais523> I see the logic (= for assignment, ! for shell), but it's still a little amusing
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18:46:08 <boily> Taneb: were you audited?
18:46:59 <Taneb> Is it weird that I prefer beer from cans to beer from bottles?
18:49:03 <boily> it is beer. it doesn't matter.
18:49:57 <olsner> Taneb: you prefer what you prefer, not much more to it
18:55:01 <boily> speaking of beer, two days ago I tried a http://brasseursdumonde.com/portfolio-items/seigneur-noir/. it's one fungot of a powerful beer!
18:55:01 <fungot> boily: the general trend of it. i find what rms stands for repellant, and so
18:55:19 <boily> fungot: sadly, he does repel a lot of people.
18:55:19 <fungot> boily: man- i don't want to /write/ on a turing machine, i would get some more men!
18:56:07 <boily> fungot: to get more men: the ambition of about half the world's population. maybe more than that.
18:56:07 <fungot> boily: how old are you if i get it.
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18:58:16 <fungot> shachaf: it's my sadol, functional language
18:58:32 <shachaf> fungot: is that an esolang? also you didn't answer the question
18:58:32 <fungot> shachaf: i don't really look like a klansman? :) what implementation do you use? is it the same person, at least. :)
19:02:21 <boily> fizzie: how old is the fungot?
19:02:22 <fungot> boily: i see it you could just do some regex magick and replace email addresses with something less readable.
19:02:52 <boily> fungot: email addresses are already unparseable enough as they come.
19:02:53 <fungot> boily: but then again i'm planning to use for searches, or maybe even c) but that is the xml family of standards, many of the more direct translation of lambda calculus
19:03:16 <boily> xml and lambda calculus... now that is an interesting idea.
19:11:12 <fizzie> [2008-08-14 11:42:44] ... fungot [n=fungot@qeq4.kyla.fi] has joined #esoteric
19:11:13 <fizzie> [2008-08-14 11:43:49] < fungot> Hello. I'm a silly bot written in Funge-98, using the STRN, SOCK and FGRN fingerprints, running under RC/Funge-98.
19:11:13 <fungot> fizzie: yes, but is never used. right? doing it the wrong way
19:11:13 <fungot> fizzie: does a difference of fnord and springs with bullets shooting them at different frequencies when struck, iirc.
19:11:41 <olsner> fungot: you are used. all the time.
19:11:41 <fungot> olsner: can you give me more bandwidth or i'll read /dev/ fnord /dev/ kmem
19:11:55 <fungot> olsner: corba is really easy to use. in code like that published in a finnish newspaper. i didn't believe that, with huge gaps in numbering now and then
19:12:13 <fizzie> fungot: That makes it sound like you're going to hack out of your box.
19:12:13 <fungot> fizzie: a thermal camera would be nice if one could these days rely on gcc's tco
19:12:46 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not going to buy you a thermal camera.
19:12:47 <fungot> fizzie: to continue off topic, but for the offensive language, constant references to buggery and grain alcohol...
19:12:58 <fungot> fizzie: for being irish sounding like a good idea. that happens when you plug a cat into the kitchen, to watch him argue with a lisper.
19:13:08 <olsner> dd if=/dev/fnord of=/dev/kmem
19:14:17 <olsner> fungot: it's generally not considered nice to fnord kmem, btw
19:14:18 <fungot> olsner: ( sorry to mention the commonwealth they tend to like descriptive programs
19:14:46 <fizzie> fungot: You don't even have any soft bandwidth caps, and getting a fatter pipe would cost more money.
19:14:46 <fungot> fizzie: well deewiant thinks the jump in subr should not be multiplied beyond necessity. william of occam
19:14:47 <boily> fungot: we of the commonwealth are descriptive, eh?
19:14:47 <fungot> boily: i was gonna bundle up in srfi form fnord." on the usenet, it's called tv. 3 for two seconds before i can try
19:25:10 <boily> fungot: are you of the Dectrip Faith, by any chance?
19:25:10 <fungot> boily: did al or oleg write one?
19:25:25 <boily> fungot: don't think so, but you never know with the Gropagas.
19:25:25 <fungot> boily: consider that nested combination again. :(
19:25:39 <boily> fungot: oooooh, I see. subtle. very subtle.
19:25:40 <fungot> boily: it's a concatenative ( aka stack based) languages that allow keyword arguments require that they go to the quechua class anymore. /me going to find a hungarian restaurant
19:26:06 <boily> fungot, I love you.
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20:32:37 <kmc> 'I asked some Chromium guys how much of the Pepper API the Flash Pepper plugin used. Their answer was literally "150%."'
20:47:05 <olsner> is anything except chromium adopting that pepper api thing?
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20:49:44 <kmc> it's basically a bunch of chromium internals exposed as an API
20:50:08 <kmc> so it would be hard for e.g. Firefox to adopt it, and this means we can't implement NaCl either
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20:50:32 <olsner> oh, is NaCl based on/related to pepper?
20:51:09 <kmc> yep, when code running in NaCl wants to talk to the browser / the outside world, it uses Pepper
20:51:13 <kmc> salt and pepper
20:52:37 <Fiora> so pepper is like the system API and NaCl is the runtime/compiler?
20:52:59 <kmc> anyway some people (disclaimer: i'm not speaking officially on behalf of mozilla {corporation,foundation}, blah blah blah) see Google pushing NaCl over asm.js as an anti-competitive anti-open-web vendor-lockin dick move
20:53:19 <kmc> that said, there is https://github.com/google/pepper.js
20:53:36 <ais523> kmc: do people often assume you're speaking officially on behalf of mozilla?
20:53:36 <kmc> which will compile NaCl code that calls Pepper APIs into asm.js JavaScript that calls the standard Web APIs
20:53:54 <kmc> ais523: no but it seems a prudent disclaimer because I am employed by Mozilla Corporation
20:54:15 <kmc> anyway I don't know how complete pepper.js is; it certainly sounds like it's not enough to run Flash
20:54:38 <kmc> but mozilla has a way better solution for Flash in the works, which is just to reimplement it in JavaScript
20:54:51 <kmc> http://mozilla.github.io/shumway/
20:54:59 <kmc> it's in FF nightlies now I believe
20:55:01 <kmc> behind a flag
20:55:14 <Fiora> how does its performance compare on like, flash games and animations?
20:55:29 <ais523> yeah, the thing about /this/ Flash replacement is that apparently it's backed by a large enough organization that it might actually succeed
20:55:35 <kmc> yeah, unlike Gnash
20:56:10 <kmc> also it reimplements Flash on top of an open standard and a memory safe language
20:56:13 <kmc> which is cool
20:56:28 <ais523> I don't think GNU have the resources/momentum to do really any more really large projects
20:56:33 <kmc> Fiora: I don't have numbers, but I saw a live demo last week and it was silky smooth on some real games
20:56:41 <kmc> I don't know how cherry-picked the set of games was
20:56:48 <ais523> they struggle to keep both gcc and Emacs under control, and Hurd isn't really going anywhere
20:57:29 <kmc> and I don't know how it does on video (eg YouTube), but I think that shouldn't be hard perf-wise, since you would just send it through to the same code paths that handle <video> tags
20:57:39 <Fiora> I thought there were like, plugins that already did that
20:57:49 <Fiora> like, replaced flash video players with native
20:57:57 <Fiora> just by like, snooping the html or something?
20:57:57 <kmc> do you have a link?
20:58:02 <ais523> kmc: AFAIK, Flash for video streaming is mostly independent of Flash for games/animation
20:58:11 <ais523> like, different formats and everything, just with the same brand name
20:58:14 <Fiora> but I remember, like, a ton of flash video is just something like
20:58:18 <kmc> I've vaguely wanted something like that; or also something that runs Gnash just far enough to get a flv url
20:58:20 <Fiora> <some tags vidoe="myvideo.mp4">
20:58:24 <ais523> .flv can already be played by a bunch of video players (VLC, for instance)
20:58:28 <kmc> ais523: right
20:58:40 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, sometimes it's easy to get a url from the HTML; sometimes it's hard
20:58:43 <ais523> so the problem's just trying to get past all the obfuscation
20:58:51 <lexande> kmc: do you use youtube-dl?
20:58:51 <ais523> kmc: NoScript's quite good at getting at the URL
20:58:51 <kmc> they can actively obfuscate it, esp. if they want to force some ads or DRM on you
20:58:55 <kmc> lexande: sometimes
20:59:05 <kmc> ais523: oh, I didn't know it has that power
20:59:17 <kmc> of course the Web APIs are getting DRM now too :(
20:59:27 <Bike> yeah what's going on there exactly
20:59:35 <kmc> i don't know anything about it actually
20:59:38 <ais523> kmc: if you click on a blocked Flash video when the rest of the page is unblocked, it typically gives you the actual URL in the confirmation message
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20:59:51 <kmc> other than that people are Pissed Off
21:00:03 <ais523> basically they're just providing a standardised API to connect to DRM plugins via HTML, I think
21:00:08 <kmc> where again people = some people, not speaking officially on behalf of my employer
21:00:15 <Fiora> hearing about that really confused me. like. are the plugins going to be cross-platform or something?
21:00:24 <ais523> which seems to create some minor problems, without actually solving any problems at all
21:00:32 <ais523> Fiora: nothing's forcing them to be, = most likely no
21:00:59 <Fiora> I'm... confused as to like. why that is literally any different from how it is now o_O
21:00:59 <kmc> I don't fucking understand why publishers think DRM is worth their time and energy
21:01:04 <kmc> presumably they are not all stupid
21:01:07 <kmc> so I must be missing something
21:01:11 <Fiora> like now there's platform-specific browser plugins and stuff for DRM Things
21:01:25 <Fiora> so I mean, they wouldn't do this unless it somehow was better than that for at least someone (?)
21:01:31 <Fiora> but... this... sounds identical?
21:01:32 <kmc> walled garden app stores, game console locking, software DRM all make business sense to me
21:01:35 <kmc> video DRM does not
21:01:59 <kmc> because it only takes one person to crack it and they can redistribute the clean file effortlessly
21:02:15 <kmc> which is less true for software
21:02:39 <kmc> (and the first two of those are more about making life hard for competitors than making it hard for pirates)
21:02:41 <Fiora> kmc: and for like, live streaming stuff some people will just run a screen capture tool and restream it on ustream or something
21:03:55 <ais523> the analog hole is impossible to close, best you can do is some sort of steganography so that you can catch the people who did it
21:04:26 <ais523> and ofc HDMI is 100% broken so you can't even secure the digital hole while retaining compatibility with anyone's existing equipment
21:04:45 <kmc> i watched series 7 of Peep Show from some sketchy video site which had video capture of someone else watching it from the official Channel 4 site
21:04:54 <ais523> (the crypto's weak enough that it got broken simply by collecting enough HDMI players from different manufacturers)
21:05:22 <fizzie> ais523: "Impossible" schmimpossible, you just need some kind of a TPM inside the brain of the vic^Wcustomer, and an end-to-end encrypted path to there.
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21:07:21 <oerjan> <boily> @tell oerjan why did you pastold me? (pastelogs + @tell, conflagrated)
21:07:33 <oerjan> boily: to find out wtf you were responding to
21:08:18 <oerjan> @tell boily to find out wtf you were responding to
21:12:30 <fizzie> Speaking of web technologies, how's Silverlight doing these days?
21:13:11 <kmc> Netflix may be the only significant user, but they're pretty significant
21:13:22 <ais523> fizzie: Microsoft abandoned it, and stopped telling people to use it
21:13:38 <ais523> Netflix continued using it anyway, but it'd be crazy to use it for any new project
21:14:00 <fizzie> I assume Netflix on Android has nothing to do with it though?
21:14:03 <kmc> they're the ones pushing DRM in HTML5, I think
21:14:04 <boily> hellørjan. I recognize that I may sometimes have some slight temporary trouble with context and stuff.
21:14:36 <fizzie> (Google Play seems to have started offering music -- in addition to books and apps -- for sale in Finland; that's new.)
21:15:49 <boily> it's that time of the day in the year where every shiny surface conspires to blind you.
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21:24:06 <shachaf> kmc: http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2013/10/going-beyond-vulnerability-rewards.html
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21:27:26 <elliott> $500 for getting rid of strcats?
21:28:50 <kmc> but they keep the strmouse population under control :<
21:29:08 <fizzie> fungot: Why don't you earn your electricity for once and go do something like the aforementioned?
21:29:09 <fungot> fizzie: help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen
21:29:16 <kmc> shachaf: that's cool
21:29:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:29:30 <kmc> so if I make security improvements to BIND then google will give me some cash?
21:29:51 <kmc> I should bust out my Autoconf auto-hardening code and get rich
21:29:59 <fizzie> Only if it has "demonstrable, positive impact".
21:31:41 <kmc> one idea we've kicked around for Servo is running image decoders, etc. in a NaCl-like sandbox
21:32:27 <kmc> (that is, where we don't rewrite them in Rust)
21:35:20 <olsner> http://cr.yp.to/qmail/qmailsec-20071101.pdf had an exaple of almost exactly that, making a sandbox where a jpeg decoder can only read jpeg from stdin and write data on stdout
21:35:48 <Fiora> kmc: does rust let you call asm or the like for things like DCTs?
21:36:29 <olsner> not NaCl-like though, just a unixy sandbox
21:36:37 <kmc> yeah, Chrome already uses OS sandboxing for a lot of things, but I don't think that will scale up to the levels of parallelism we want
21:37:15 <kmc> i don't really trust that a pile of rlimit etc. calls would work, but Linux has seccomp via prctl(2) for this purpose
21:37:32 <ais523> olsner: is that the prctl sandbox on Linux?
21:37:43 <ais523> that turns off all syscalls but read, write, exit, sigreturn?
21:37:56 <boily> siri vs. eliza → http://imgur.com/a/7xvqs
21:38:20 <ais523> I've actually used that at work
21:38:22 <olsner> that pdf was much more interesting for the other points than the one example of a sandbox though
21:38:35 <ais523> had to get the computer technicians to set up a VM with it turned on, for us
21:38:50 <ais523> because the stock Linux builds didn't have that particular prctl enabled
21:38:56 <kmc> Fiora: we have an (undocumented) inline assembly feature, but also you can call any function that complies with the C ABI
21:39:07 <Fiora> ahhhh so you can just write a cdecl function and call that
21:39:17 <Fiora> so it doesn't ,like, insist all your code is safe
21:40:13 <kmc> in fact Rust has first-class support for unsafe pointers and the like, you just need to be inside an unsafe { ... } block to use them
21:40:45 <kmc> like there's a keyword 'unsafe'
21:40:57 <ais523> yeah, Rust's opinion about unsafe code is similar, in its own way, to Haskell's
21:41:09 <ais523> has to be correctly labelled or the type system bitches at you
21:41:48 <kmc> the approach for doing that in Haskell (Safe Haskell) is new and bolted-on and pretty complicated
21:42:14 <kmc> they are similar philosophically
21:43:11 <kmc> you can also declare functions with 'unsafe fn' in which case they can only be called from an unsafe { ... } block or another such function
21:43:51 <kmc> so you can import a C library, define an unsafe API (which might still be higher level in some ways), and then provide a safe wrapper where your proof obligation lies at a particular point in the code
21:43:55 <kmc> which is cool
21:44:05 <ais523> can you have unsafe fn arguments?
21:44:22 <kmc> what would that mean?
21:44:30 <ais523> say I want to use "map" from within an unsafe function
21:44:35 <ais523> and give it a unsafe function as a argument
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21:44:48 <kmc> interesting question!
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21:44:49 <ais523> do I need to create a separate unsafe_map
21:44:50 <kmc> i haven't thought about that
21:44:54 <kmc> I bet you do :(
21:44:55 <ais523> or can map be polymorphic on unsafety?
21:45:18 <ais523> kmc: thinking about this sort of thing is what I do, nowadays
21:45:37 <kmc> we don't have polymorphism over safety, nor over mutability, nor over type constructors even :(
21:45:43 <kmc> ais523: oh? what are you working on?
21:46:08 <ais523> kmc: resource-bounding type systems
21:46:20 <ais523> most recently, attempting to make the type system polymorphic in sharing
21:46:41 <ais523> like, with the existing type systems, if I want to implement "let" syntactic sugar
21:46:54 <ais523> that binds multiple variables
21:47:08 <ais523> what it desugars to is different depending on whether the variables can execute in parallel, or whether they can share resources
21:47:20 <ais523> (they can't both execute in parallel /and/ share resources, that's the point of the type system)
21:47:34 <ais523> the new type system desugars it consistently in both cases
21:56:21 <kmc> what system is this?
21:56:57 <ais523> kmc: the old system is called Syntactic Control of Interference, you can find a bunch of papers about it on Google Scholar
21:57:07 <ais523> the new one is new, and not written up in enough detail to be public yet
21:57:10 <ais523> but it'll be in my PhD
22:00:45 <kmc> is it a substructural type system then?
22:01:26 <ais523> I'm not 100% sure on what substructural means, but almost certainly yes
22:03:24 <shachaf> what about a structural subtype system
22:03:31 <kmc> that's also a thing yes
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22:04:15 <shachaf> the phrase "substructural subtyping" has three results on the google
22:04:38 <ais523> the language, or the game, or something else entirely?
22:04:57 <ais523> (the healthy-ish fast food chain that supplies Birmingham University, for instance?)
22:05:06 <kmc> in a substructural system you aren't automatically allowed to duplicate / discard / reorder the elements of the type context
22:06:28 <ais523> going down the tree, or upwards?
22:06:51 <ais523> I don't allow contraction, but I do allow weakening (it's affine, not linear), and banning reordering would be ridiculous outside esolangs IMO
22:07:09 <shachaf> Affine type systems are substructural, sure.
22:07:45 <ais523> incidentally, does "affine" in general have any meaning other than "linear but not quite"?
22:07:55 <ais523> it's used to mean that in several different contexts
22:08:04 <kmc> Rust has affine types, and the stuff you mentioned with checking non-interference between lets sounds similar to Rust's uniqueness and borrow checkeing
22:08:23 <shachaf> I generally see "affine" used to mean "0 or 1" in some sense or another.
22:08:27 <Koen_> an affine space is like a vector space except we forgot who's zero
22:08:36 <shachaf> Where "linear" is "exactly 1" and "relevant" is "1 or more"
22:09:04 <shachaf> Or maybe I made that up, I don't know.
22:09:19 <ais523> kmc: it's not the same as Rust, but there's a similar spirit there, I think
22:09:27 <shachaf> But I think it works with all the uses I've seen.
22:09:30 <ais523> Rust's aiming to make sure that something isn't deallocated early or late
22:09:34 <kmc> ais523: so do you infer when things can run in parallel?
22:09:45 <ais523> whereas I'm trying to make sure that things aren't copied inappropriately
22:09:52 <shachaf> there's also a sandwich place at the google called go: http://menu-mtv-go.blogspot.com/ i don't know whether it came before or after the language
22:09:55 <ais523> although in practice, we don't actually have an inference algo yet
22:10:09 <ais523> (my supervisor wants to just use Z3, though)
22:10:22 <kmc> that's awesome
22:10:59 <ais523> IMO using an algorithm specialized for the task is likely to work better
22:11:02 <ais523> but who knows, maybe Z3 would work
22:11:11 <shachaf> you know how there are four properties of relations, "functional", "total", "injective", "surjective"
22:11:19 <shachaf> where a function is a functional total relation
22:11:34 <kmc> is there existing work on implementing type inference with SMT solvers?
22:11:50 <shachaf> a surjective function is a function that maps each element in the domain to at least one element in the codomain
22:11:50 <ais523> kmc: probably not, because at least for Hindley-Milner there's no reason to do so
22:11:57 <shachaf> an injective function is a function that maps each element in the domain to at most one element in the codomain
22:12:18 <shachaf> i'd like to find an excuse to use the words "affine" and "relevant" and "linear" there
22:12:35 <ais523> I'm not convinced your definitions of surjective and injective are correct
22:12:39 <kmc> ais523: sure, most real-world languages with inference go beyond H-M though
22:12:41 <ais523> I think you have the domain and codomain backwards
22:13:07 <shachaf> In that direction it's always "exactly 1".
22:13:10 <kmc> Rust has some weird inference corner cases, arising from the fact that we have a *little* bit of subtyping hidden deep down
22:13:25 <shachaf> A relation is total/functional if its opposite relation is surjective/injective.
22:13:28 <ais523> kmc: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf is my work on inference algorithms
22:13:59 <ais523> that's inference for SCC, which is basically a type system where the maximum number of copies of anything that might simultaneously execute is statically known
22:14:12 <ais523> the main result there is that it's decidable, which isn't obvious
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22:19:19 <oerjan> <ais523> is glogbot working again yet? <-- yes
22:19:54 <oerjan> technically most of it always did. but Gregor said he fixed the formatted logs.
22:21:05 <shachaf> ais523: do you know a good thing to read to learn about linear logic and such
22:21:25 <ais523> shachaf: no, I actually don't understand the whole of linear logic myself
22:21:28 <ais523> I only work with fragments
22:21:50 <oerjan> no one understands par or ?, tru fax
22:22:03 <ais523> although learning categorical semantics helps
22:22:19 <shachaf> what is linear logic even like categorically
22:22:26 <ais523> and the difference between tensors and products (i.e. the monoids of monoidal closed categories, and cartesian closed categories, respectively)
22:22:28 <shachaf> people were talking about it a bit in ##typetheory
22:22:47 <ais523> shachaf: basically for affine, you don't have cartesian closure
22:22:52 <shachaf> oerjan: isn't ?X just "some number of X which is specified by someone else"
22:23:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i have no idea
22:23:13 <ais523> and for linear, your monoid units aren't terminal objects any more
22:23:19 <shachaf> ais523: i like how comonoids become non-boring with linear logic
22:23:48 <ais523> how do the counits work for comonoids?
22:23:59 <ais523> having a bit of trouble mentally reversing the definition
22:23:59 <shachaf> Well, not everything is a comonoid.
22:24:13 <ais523> I'm asking, what are the axioms
22:24:31 <ais523> presumably, left and right coidentity, and coassociativity
22:24:47 <ais523> but I'm not entirely sure what those are
22:24:52 <shachaf> Right. I don't know about linear logic in particular but that's what it'd be in general.
22:25:20 <ais523> yeah, but what does a coassociativity axiom look like anyway
22:25:41 <ais523> for a normal monoid, we have (A \otimes B) \otimes C = A \otimes (B \otimes C)
22:25:53 <oerjan> i suppose that makes sense. !x = 1 & (x * !x) isn't it, so by duality you should have ?x = _|_ + (x par ?x). oh wait par.
22:26:09 <oerjan> shachaf: there's a par in that, all hope is lost.
22:26:13 <ais523> I'm having trouble even expressing the opposite of that
22:26:27 <ais523> because the arities are all wrong
22:26:28 <shachaf> It's the reverse of the diagram in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid_object
22:27:12 <ais523> shachaf: that diagram is either wrong or doesn't match the text
22:27:16 <ais523> it uses an alpha, exactly once
22:27:31 <ais523> ah no, it's the alpha from the category as a whole
22:27:42 <ais523> thus, that diagram only makes sense for a monoidal category
22:27:43 <shachaf> Yes, it's a monoidal category.
22:27:51 <shachaf> That's how a monoid object is defined.
22:28:02 <ais523> so the category is still monoidal
22:28:09 <ais523> but it has objects which are comonoids?
22:28:26 <ais523> I was trying to mentally work out wtf a coassociative cobifunctor was
22:28:46 <ais523> if that concept actually doesn't make sense, it'd explain why I couldn't figure it out
22:29:13 <shachaf> As far as I know comonoids are still defined in a monoidal category.
22:29:18 <ais523> OK, so for a comonoid, I start with one M
22:29:21 <ais523> and explode it to M x M
22:29:30 <ais523> and whichever of those Ms I explode next, I get the same M x M x M
22:29:35 <ais523> (no parens because it's associative)
22:29:36 <shachaf> Then you can expand either M and you get the same thing (after reässociation).
22:29:55 <shachaf> Well, x depends on your choice of monoidal category.
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22:29:58 <oerjan> cobifunctors sound like something the japanese would invent.
22:30:04 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, but \otimes is the general term
22:30:26 <shachaf> Even in e.g. Haskell you can define monoids/comonoids with (,)/() or Either/Void if you want.
22:30:41 <shachaf> (But only one of those four combinations is actually interesting.)
22:30:48 <ais523> the categories I've been working with recently are monoidal in two different ways
22:31:03 <shachaf> Oh, you mean \otimes as in tensor product in the monoidal category, not as in linear logic's \otimes?
22:31:12 <ais523> I mean \otimes as tensor, yes
22:31:34 <ais523> comonoid objects must be much rarer than monoid objects, I think
22:31:45 <ais523> I think I get how they behave, but I'm having trouble thinking up examples
22:32:03 <shachaf> In Haskell every type is a ((,)/()) comonoid, of course.
22:32:27 <shachaf> Where counit _ = (), comult x = (x,x)
22:32:53 <ais523> oh right, because the comonoid is "aware" of what type it's operating on
22:32:55 <shachaf> In linear logic, the idea is at least related to !, I think.
22:32:58 <ais523> so it even works on, say, (Int, Int)
22:33:11 <ais523> I start with (2,4), then get (2,4,2,4), and can double either to get (2,4,2,4,2,4)
22:33:19 <ais523> without having to worry about accidentally getting (2,2,4) or (2,4,4)
22:33:40 <ais523> this is one level of abstraction below the one I normally work at
22:33:44 <ais523> which is why I'm confused
22:34:01 <ais523> categorical semantics has too many levels of abstraction :(
22:34:25 <shachaf> Anyway, does linear logic even have products and so on?
22:34:40 <shachaf> Is there a terminal object? What are the arrows, anyway?
22:34:41 <ais523> it has both a product and a tensor, I think
22:35:04 <ais523> full linear logic is what you get when you glue together lots of different type systems
22:35:19 <shachaf> oerjan: is par the upside down &
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22:35:48 <ais523> it should be called \dna :(
22:36:53 <ais523> huh, on Wikipedia, [[Categorical semantics]] is a redirect to [[Categorical logic]], which is an overview page linking to [[Categorical semantics]] for the main information
22:37:35 <ais523> <Jpbowen, 6 October 2005> <!-- A separate entry would be better, but this is better than nothing! -->
22:39:44 <ais523> "Construct the set S of solutions in the abstract domain of positive integers formed by quotienting Z^0,+ over the equivalence relation a \equiv b iff a=b \vee (a≥2 \wedge b≥2) […]"
22:40:08 <ais523> in other words, I effectively got to say in a mathematical paper "assume that the only integers are 0, 1, many"
22:43:38 <shachaf> hi mnoqy do you know about categories and linear logic
22:43:40 <kmc> Fiora: in the vein of "Rust can handle low-level unsafe things" I'll also mention that the Rust runtime system is mostly written in Rust
22:43:52 <mnoqy> shachaf: i know about categories!
22:44:01 <mnoqy> i've never bothered to learn linear logic stuff though
22:44:10 <shachaf> i,i hi mnoqy do you know about categories par linear logic
22:44:10 <kmc> which includes a userspace green-thread scheduler and an implementation of reference counted boxes (and one day, a garbage collector)
22:44:19 <Fiora> what's a green-thread?
22:44:26 <kmc> lightweight userspace threads
22:44:28 <ais523> Fiora: I think it's one that doesn't use the OS threading
22:44:40 <kmc> we map them onto a configurable number of OS threads
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22:45:28 <kmc> they are preemtible whenever they do IO
22:45:32 <shachaf> non-native userspace green-threads implemented without os support
22:45:41 <ais523> kmc: I was just about to ask about the preëmption rules
22:45:50 <ais523> what if a thread goes into an infinite loop with no IO?
22:45:58 <ais523> (i.e. a tight infinite loop)
22:46:03 <kmc> (so they are less preemptible than GHC threads, which can be preempted on any allocation and these days there's a flag to make them always preemptible)
22:46:11 <ais523> does it block the other threads in its thread block?
22:46:13 <kmc> ais523: then it consumes a whole OS thread
22:46:17 <kmc> I think the others can move around
22:46:21 <kmc> the scheduler is work-stealing
22:46:24 <kmc> I'm not positive, though
22:46:41 <kmc> (i'm gonna say "task" instead of "green thread" from here on because that's the Rust terminology)
22:47:09 <kmc> also, sending a message to another task will (by default) context switch your thread to that task
22:47:15 <kmc> so they are kind of like coroutines, performance-wise
22:47:20 <kmc> but you can also do a deferred send
22:47:54 <ais523> I like this sort of thing
22:47:59 <ais523> simple semantics, optimized implementation
22:48:17 <kmc> Fiora: so in terms of low level stuff, Rust can basically do anything C and C++ can do, including write a Rust runtime system
22:48:25 <kmc> as long as you don't use the RTS features as you are implementing them :)
22:49:18 <oerjan> ais523: fixed your self-redirects
22:49:50 <ais523> I was considering fixing it, but it was hard to think of an improvement
22:49:57 <kmc> and if you don't link against the standard RTS, you can implement just the language features you use
22:49:59 <ais523> oh, they were /all/ self-redirects?
22:50:01 <kmc> which looks like http://ix.io/8fH
22:50:29 <kmc> this code uses ~-boxes therefore it's required to provide the exchange_malloc and exchange_free "lang items"
22:50:37 <kmc> which here are just calls to C malloc and free
22:51:11 <kmc> (they are also basically just that in the standard RTS, too, but that's subject to change. i think they call a statically linked jemalloc)
22:54:24 <oerjan> ais523: i've been thinking mediawiki needs a way to mark pages as "links to here should get a different color" which can be used on things like this, and redirects from misspellings.
22:54:40 <oerjan> but lacking that, i don't know anything better than turning it into bold.
22:54:58 <oerjan> (now you may tell me this feature already exists twh)
22:55:03 <ais523> oerjan: it implements at least two of those (redirects, short pages), but as user preferences
22:55:30 <ais523> a while back, there was a major push at Wikipedia to set the default "short pages" limit at 0 rather than -1
22:55:34 <ais523> and set the color to red
22:55:39 <ais523> so that you could delete a page by blanking it
22:55:40 <oerjan> ais523: well the point would be that it wouldn't apply to _all_ redirects, just ones marked with a certain template.
22:55:43 <ais523> it fizzled out, though
22:55:49 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, that's harder
22:55:55 <oerjan> e.g. i'd apply it to [[Issac Newton]], my old nemesis.
22:56:19 <ais523> you could do it by spamming the redirects you wanted to mark with a sufficiently long template
22:56:25 <ais523> and then setting a different color for "redirect, not short"
22:56:35 <ais523> I believe there are a few redirects with long spam comments for that purpose on Wikipedia
22:56:43 <ais523> although I might be wrong
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22:57:35 <oerjan> ais523: it's half useless as a user preference though, since the person who _introduced_ a misspelled link wouldn't see it.
22:57:52 <oerjan> (being they're obviously too stupid to set preferences)
22:57:54 <ais523> oerjan: yeah but everything else in Wikipedia is half useless too
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01:28:03 <oerjan> function's nick is constantly variable
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02:16:34 <oerjan> hyphen-ated, the great pharaoh
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02:20:21 <Koen_> `run bf -[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-.
02:20:29 <HackEgo> bash: ]: No such file or directory
02:20:38 <Koen_> `run bf "-[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-."
02:20:39 <HackEgo> bash: bf: command not found
02:20:59 <Koen_> !bf "-[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-"
02:21:08 <oerjan> `interp bf -[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-.
02:21:35 <oerjan> !bf should work but EgoBot isn't feeling very well
02:21:37 <Koen_> according to brainfuck constants wiki page, it's 139
02:21:55 <Koen_> but I don't understand it
02:22:19 <Koen_> the main loop ends on a cell which only holds multiple of three
02:22:54 <Koen_> oh, so it stops at 3*256 (it is late okay)
02:24:03 <Koen_> okay, but the second cell is supposed to hold 2/3 of the content of the first cell, so that's 2*256
02:25:03 <myname> i'm fairly surprised it even terminates
02:25:26 <Koen_> well, the first cell is incremented by 3 every round
02:25:46 <myname> you are going 3 cells to the right every time
02:25:54 <myname> and neber go back to them
02:26:17 <Koen_> the inner loop takes you back to the zeroth cell, which holds a zero
02:26:47 <Koen_> the second cell is incremented by 2 every round, so it should always be 2/3 of the first
02:27:19 <Koen_> and the third cell is always 2 less than the second cell
02:27:59 <Koen_> I really don't see how the result could be 139
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02:51:25 <oerjan> Koen_: ok it's probably 8249 then?
02:52:26 <oerjan> i'm not sure how those char encodings get messed up. wait function should only be writing one byte, anyhow.
02:52:38 <oerjan> oh hm it's windows something not latin-1
02:52:57 <oerjan> so probably has another unicode code point
02:53:13 <oerjan> there you go, it _is_ 139.
02:54:15 <oerjan> Koen_: ok more seriously, the bf in the other bots is _not_ 8-bit.
02:54:33 <oerjan> `interp bf8 -[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-.
02:54:55 <kmc> Extended Brainfuck Coded Decimal Interchange Code
02:55:50 <Koen_> I still don't understand how this works...
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02:56:08 <oerjan> oh ic why it's looking strange. HackEgo prepends its usual zero-width space, which is then followed by a _non_utf8 character. therefore the whole mess gets interpreted in latin1/cp1252.
02:57:09 <oerjan> so the ​ is the zero-width space while the ‹ is the real output.
02:57:31 <myname> what's that space for?
02:57:52 <pikhq> myname: So bots don't interpret its output.
02:59:00 <myname> so, if one is mean he could write a bot that acts on zero-width space
02:59:12 <pikhq> BTW, friends don't let friends use not-UTF-8.
02:59:28 <pikhq> Equivalently, friends don't let friends use Windows. ;)
03:02:40 <oerjan> ok after the first loop iteration it's 0 3 2
03:06:44 <myname> it should always be 0 1,5x x x-2
03:07:00 <myname> you will break if 1,5x = 256
03:07:42 <oerjan> that's what koen_ thought, i think.
03:08:26 <myname> but it would be 169 then
03:08:27 <oerjan> i don't think using 1,5 is a very good idea. 0 3x 2x 2x-2.
03:09:26 <oerjan> myname: no it would be 255.
03:09:32 <myname> did you calculate another iteration?
03:09:38 <oerjan> it happens when x=256.
03:09:55 <myname> at which point 2x should be 17ß
03:09:58 <oerjan> but i think i know where this thinking breaks.
03:10:15 <oerjan> myname: um you aren't using floating point are you.
03:10:25 <oerjan> that's not how wrapping 8-bit bf works.
03:10:34 <oerjan> you need to calculate mod 256.
03:10:55 <myname> it should happen when 3x = 256
03:11:06 <oerjan> but x is an integer, myname
03:11:12 <myname> since 3x is the cell that is pointed at at the end of the loop
03:11:20 <oerjan> it should happen when 3x is a multiple of 256.
03:11:35 <oerjan> which first happens when x is 256.
03:11:47 <oerjan> however i know which point we are ignoring.
03:12:12 <oerjan> namely the inner [+<] loop.
03:12:17 <myname> i don't get wh it shouldn't happen earlier
03:12:43 <oerjan> myname: because x=256 is the smallest integer such that 3x is a multiple of 256.
03:13:23 <oerjan> 0 6 4 2 becomes 0 9 6 4 etc.
03:13:35 <oerjan> but now let's _not_ ignore the inner loop.
03:13:48 <myname> yes, it gets 255 and after that 2
03:14:04 <myname> it breaks there earlier?
03:15:23 <oerjan> at the entrance to the inner loop it goes as 0 7 5 3, 0 10 7 5 etc.
03:15:56 <oerjan> the inner loop will break if any of _those_ hit a multiple of 256.
03:16:54 <oerjan> ok only the first number has a chance of not being odd, so only that can trigger it.
03:17:19 <oerjan> that's a multiple of 3.
03:17:59 <oerjan> > (0, 10+3*82, 7+2*82, 5+2*82)
03:18:32 <myname> so it breaks the inner loop, adds one to 171
03:18:42 <myname> and should use a fifth cell
03:19:31 <oerjan> it gets to the major end of loop with 0 0 173 170
03:21:31 <myname> it starts again with offsets
03:21:46 <oerjan> surely it should increase 3,2,2 again
03:22:26 <myname> it will go up to 256 in the first one again
03:23:14 <oerjan> before inner loop it will start 0 0 174 171 1, 0 0 177 173 3 ...
03:23:18 <myname> it should be 0 0 0 213 43 by then
03:24:21 <oerjan> again all but the first are odd before the inner loop
03:25:12 <oerjan> 174, 176; 177, 179; 180, 182;
03:26:17 <oerjan> hm _neither_ the inner nor the outer loop will hit 256.
03:27:30 <oerjan> so we need to go on to 512, i guess.
03:27:56 <oerjan> 176, which is the outer loop, hits that.
03:28:35 <oerjan> > (176+3*112, 172+2*112, 2+2*112)
03:30:01 <myname> i also learned that you cannot do basic math in head ;p
03:30:25 <myname> i mean, 256 - 10, come on
03:31:08 <myname> 396 - 256 isn't that hard, either
03:31:22 <oerjan> well of course i could do that, but my brain tires fast these days, so it might have meant that i would simply give up at some later point.
03:32:25 <oerjan> and also asking lambdabot means i don't miss my own stupid mistake.
03:32:42 <myname> i know a student who always do mod 5 in ghci
03:33:39 <Bike> i know a student who only does mod 7 with computers instead of in their head.
03:33:43 <Bike> that student... is me.
03:34:03 <myname> mod 5 is trivial to do
03:35:02 * oerjan used to be good at mental arithmetic.
03:35:02 <myname> it's basically if n[-1] > 5 { n[-1] - 5 } else { n[-1] }
03:35:41 <oerjan> now i cannot concentrate worth a damn
03:45:29 <kmc> git rebase -i: a tool assisted speedrun for your code
03:45:58 <Bike> great, now i want to see the git version of the family feud TAS
03:48:57 <kmc> the Mystery Hunt had a puzzle called "Git Hub" where they gave you a Git repo and you eventually realize the commit graph has the same shape as the Boston subway system
03:49:05 <kmc> and then you have to do puzzling things with it
03:49:39 <myname> you need to look at the graph, but nice
04:13:40 * oerjan wonders if this year's nobel prize winner martin karplus is related to esolanger maharba...
04:20:51 <shachaf> You know how you can't select text which is part of a link in browsers in general?
04:21:08 <shachaf> Because the link just gets dragged instead.
04:30:20 <oerjan> "All people with the surname "Karplus" appear to be descendants of Alexander Karplus, who died in June 1797 and was the first to carry the family name "Karplus". The name was created in response to the 1787 requirement of the Austrian Empire that all Jewish families have surnames. No one knows what the name means (if anything)."
04:30:47 <oerjan> so i guess he's definitely _somewhat_ related
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05:42:36 <shachaf> so it's come to my attention that "unique" and "exists" also mean "?" and "+"
05:43:11 <Bike> i mean "?" too
05:43:27 <shachaf> are you suggesting that i'm being bad at communicate
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05:54:27 <Bike> http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v31/n10/fig_tab/nbt.2706_F1.html "hm, this could be a problem"
05:59:26 <kmc> "cumulative PhDs awarded" "cumulative faculty positions" "cumulative PhDs employed by Google to improve advertising algorithms"
06:00:21 <Bike> does google hire many entomologists
06:00:33 <Fiora> monsanto hires those, right
06:00:37 <kmc> to look for bugs?
06:01:46 <Bike> for pesticide things, i imagine
06:01:50 <shachaf> Schillebeeckx is a p. good name
06:02:01 <shachaf> i didn't know you were allowed to have ckx right next to eack other like that
06:04:43 <kmc> my impression is that science grad students spend 90% of their time writing MATLAB code regardless of the notional field they're in
06:04:49 <kmc> this may be inaccurate
06:05:05 <kmc> benefits of working at google: 1) you don't have to use MATLAB
06:05:07 <Bike> of course it is, some of them use R
06:05:24 <lambdabot> What be a priate's favourite cheese?
06:07:32 * oerjan swats lambdabot for misspelling -berg -----###
06:09:18 <shachaf> oerjan: is that where pirates come from
06:11:54 <kmc> i thought they were from penzance
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06:23:35 <fizzie> "In the remainder of this document the term User refers to: ____ (Individual name) and the term User's Research Group refers to: ____ (University, Institute or Company name), ____ (Specific department, area, organizational unit), ____ (Geographic site where material will be used)"
06:23:47 <fizzie> I don't know how an individual person would fill this form.
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07:41:04 <kmc> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ntgLdXV1etk/UJmmHdKIhvI/AAAAAAAAAII/ZtqzsfTIjXI/s1600/2u58bjo.jpg
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08:20:26 <fizzie> "However, some applications require very large amounts of memory. For example, building the models for a large vocabulary continuous speech dictation system might require 150MB or more. Clearly, when memory demands become this large, a proper understanding of the impact of system design decisions on memory usage is important."
08:20:45 <fizzie> (HTK documentation might be slightly old.)
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09:48:10 <fizzie> Heh. If I move (with an IMAP client, on an Exchange server) an (arguably) spam email from the spam folder to INBOX, then after a second or two it automatically goes back to the spam folder.
09:48:35 <fizzie> Other manually moved spam has tended to stay in the inbox; I guess this one is just too spammy.
09:48:58 <fizzie> "X-Spam-Status: HIGH ; 83%" -- well, that is a lot.
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13:33:52 <Taneb> Is there a name for the complement of the empty set?
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13:38:09 <mnoqy> complement relative to what?
13:39:46 <mnoqy> well, set complement is always relative to something.
13:40:26 <mnoqy> the complement of the empty set will of course be "that thing" so what you want to call it depends on what you're doing
13:40:45 <Taneb> So I could say the co-empty set relative to something
13:42:05 <mnoqy> no matter what set thingy or universe or whatever you're working with (let's call it A), A \setminus \emptyset is just A
13:43:08 <mnoqy> say if you're talking about a topological space, the complement of the empty set might be called "the whole space" because it's the whole space.
13:43:14 <boily> is there an universal empty set from which you could derive other lesser empty sets?
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13:45:40 <Taneb> What made me ask this is I suddenly realised boolean algebra is kind of like set theory
13:48:19 <Taneb> Shortly after asking the question I realised I could just use the singleton set containing only the empty set
13:48:36 <mnoqy> to represent truth? yes
13:48:44 <mnoqy> and then complements can be relative to that
13:49:47 <Taneb> Well, I'm going now
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14:00:21 <NeroReflex> i can' t understand if my project could be considered an esoteric IDE
14:09:21 <boily> NeroReflex: two questions: were you already `relcommed, and does your project run on linux?
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14:14:57 <NeroReflex> boily what is "relcommed" and: the project will be released for linux too but the project is in development and i didn' t developed the main method
14:15:21 <Fiora> `relcome NeroReflex
14:15:29 <HackEgo> NeroReflex: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:16:39 <Fiora> people here like to spam welcomes to anyone they notice is new <.<;;
14:17:40 <boily> it's not spam >_>'...
14:17:45 <NeroReflex> i can' t understand if i am creating an esoteric language or not
14:18:37 <NeroReflex> i think it is, because no one should use it for professional development, but it is not a joke
14:19:05 <NeroReflex> i am not sure of what i am creating asd
14:21:25 <boily> just a moment, checking that out...
14:23:52 <boily> eeeeeeeh... I'd say it is both esoteric and not esoteric.
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14:24:38 <boily> it is, because you're emulating an exotic theoretic architecture, and it is not because university students tend to suffer through the same kind of task, namely emulating architectures.
14:25:33 <NeroReflex> ok xD thanks, so when the project will be completed you will se it on the wiki xD
14:26:58 <boily> Si dovrebbe tradurre tutti i vostri commenti in inglese :p
14:27:41 <boily> I found one in targetver.h.
14:28:09 <NeroReflex> targetver.h is generated by Visual Studio, and i don' t use it xD
14:28:44 <NeroReflex> boily, have you got some complex brainfuck program to test? (and also some less complex one)
14:29:52 <boily> I'm very bad when it comes to brainfuck... you should ask one of the experts on this channel.
14:30:11 <boily> btw, who's the Current Bfjoust Champion?
14:31:09 <boily> NeroReflex: talk to either ais523, quintopia, Lymia or Gregor, probably.
14:31:26 <NeroReflex> oh ok, the fact is that i written a brainfuck interpreter in javascript but i think that the speed is not good :/
14:31:30 <boily> Fiora: how would you rate your Mad Brainfuck Skillz?
14:32:42 <NeroReflex> boily did you write an esoteric programming language?
14:32:54 <boily> Java being stupid is a nice thing. you don't have to think about annoying syntactic corner cases, everything is predictable (and verbose, but that's another subject).
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14:33:13 <boily> NeroReflex: I wrote some → http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Boily
14:34:35 <NeroReflex> anyway "zucchini" is the same as an italian?
14:35:43 <boily> probably. the small dark green long vegetable without much of a taste?
14:40:37 <Fiora> boily: ummmm I've never done anything except a bfjoust program
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14:49:27 <nortti> https://torrentfreak.com/riaa-wants-web-browsers-to-block-pirate-sites-and-more-130918/
14:55:17 <Taneb> I am afraid I am too aware of my positive feedback loop wrt RIAA to comment
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14:58:42 <NeroReflex> boily can you understand regex algorythms?
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15:00:30 <boily> NeroReflex: perhaps. maybe. possibly.
15:02:05 <boily> are you talking about DFA and suchlike?
15:02:58 <NeroReflex> i am tolking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expression
15:04:05 <boily> oh, if it's only about using regexpes, then yes, I tend to understand them.
15:04:22 <boily> (except that time I wrote a recursive regexp in PHP. that hurt my brain.)
15:05:15 <NeroReflex> what do you think about an esoteric programming that could sobstitute php?
15:05:16 <Bike> regexes are often implemented with DFAs, is what boilly is referring to
15:05:40 <Bike> there are already some esoteric languages based on string replacement, like Thue and ///
15:05:45 <Bike> deterministic finite automata
15:06:16 <Bike> NeroReflex: http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
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15:18:28 <NeroReflex> boily did you see the BareMetal Project?
15:19:38 <NeroReflex> someone know about the C++11 to_string() in visual studio 2013? I can' t find it
15:21:03 <Bike> we only program in ultrahaskell around these parts
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15:21:55 <Bike> it's like regular haskell, but no values are instantiated, you have to do everything with the type system.
15:22:08 <NeroReflex> so you aren' t interested on C++ or assembly?
15:22:59 <Bike> they are impure. i am only interested in programming languages approved by our father who art in heaven, as represented by the vatican.
15:23:25 * boily shushes Bike with artfully applied Duct Tape
15:23:36 <boily> (with respect to Japanese æsthetics, mind you.)
15:23:43 <Bike> Mmmmf mmrgh rmmmghf grhgh.
15:23:55 <boily> NeroReflex: we are interested in just about everything, except brainfuck derivatives.
15:24:41 <boily> NeroReflex: you haven't talked to elliott yet, haven't you?
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15:33:25 <boily> why does my bot keep dying today? that's unnerving.
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15:33:45 <NeroReflex> [17:24] <boily> NeroReflex: we are interested in just about everything, except brainfuck derivatives. lol how many derivatives did you saw during your life?
15:34:34 <metasepia> LIRF 101520Z 22010KT 190V250 9999 SCT025 21/16 Q1011 NOSIG
15:34:40 <NeroReflex> you don' t simply like it or there is a motivation
15:35:24 <Bike> they're uncreative. since they're all brainfuck but with different names for the operations.
15:36:03 <Bike> it's like taking Don Quixote and renaming everybody except Rozinante and calling it a new novel.
15:36:36 <Bike> oh, that's not the horses' name. wlel whatever
15:37:22 <NeroReflex> OH NO I AM STUPID! I DIDN' T USE STACK AND NOW EVERYTHING IS SLOW
15:38:45 <NeroReflex> how much stupid i am -.-" i used a complex algorithm instead of stack
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16:53:27 <boily> hello, my name is Alexandre, and I am a fentimanholic.
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17:34:26 <boily> random keyboardian question: where can I get a list of all possible available shifts in X?
17:34:42 <boily> (stuff like ctrl, shift, meta, ISO level 5, etc...)
17:36:17 <olsner> I think someone here knows that
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17:39:55 <boily> olsner: but the only other someone here left the chännel. you're all someones over there for me!
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17:44:40 <impomatic> Why's everyone hating on bf derivatives? :-(
17:45:12 <Bike> because they're boring and killed archduke ferdinand
17:46:11 <ais523> there are good BF derivatives
17:46:14 <ais523> there are just a lot more bad ones
17:47:13 <NeroReflex> have you got some bf programs to test?
17:47:36 <NeroReflex> and tell me about the time it takes on my interpreter
17:47:51 <ais523> I'm not particularly prolific as a BF programmer
17:48:01 <ais523> I do BF Joust more, which is kind-of different in terms of benchmarking it
17:48:27 <impomatic> - increment the byte at the data pointer
17:48:28 <impomatic> + decrement the byte at the data pointer
17:48:28 <impomatic> , output the byte at the data pointer
17:48:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input `data'
17:48:29 <impomatic> ] if the data pointer points to zero, jump to the matching [
17:48:30 <impomatic> [ if the data pointer points to nonzero, jump to the matching ]
17:48:30 <impomatic> ^ change polarity, switch < with > and - with +
17:48:45 <ais523> impomatic: apart from ^, I think that's already been invented
17:49:02 <ais523> and it isn't massively interesting in any case
17:49:18 <impomatic> It's got ^ though, so it's a new language!
17:49:27 <ais523> yes, but I'm not sure that makes it an /interesting/ new language
17:49:29 <Bike> "a new and boring language"
17:49:56 * impomatic goes away to create a FALSE derivative :-)
17:50:20 <ais523> I did make /ˈæmbiːɛf/ <http://esolangs.org/wiki//%CB%88%C3%A6mbi%CB%90%C9%9Bf/>, along similar lines
17:50:27 <ais523> but that's more interesting because it's not obvious whether it's TC or not
17:50:42 <ais523> whereas yours is just BF with an extra instruction, and one that doesn't make it uncomputable
17:50:48 <ais523> thus there's no big mystery about the computational class
17:51:53 * boily goes away to create an impomatic derivative :D
17:52:47 <impomatic> Has someone already invented bf with a time traveling instruction pointer?
17:53:06 <NeroReflex> ais523 a brainfuck intresting mod could be a mod where a "new" type of memory is used, for example a stack
17:53:21 <ais523> impomatic: I don't think so
17:53:35 <ais523> NeroReflex: like http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-PDA?
17:54:20 <boily> fungot: do you derivate brains?
17:54:20 <fungot> boily: you think ( probably so) that you'll get much out of courses until after these two. and not an else in there)
17:54:30 <ais523> IMO the way to make an interesting BF derivative is to screw with the control flow in a way that means the standard techniques don't work
17:54:38 <ais523> I guess what I care about in esolanging is that there isn't an obvious way to write programs
17:54:42 <ais523> BF wasn't obvious once, but it is nowadays
17:55:14 <NeroReflex> ais523, no in this mod there isn' t a turing machine concept, it is not BF anymore
17:55:37 <ais523> NeroReflex: yeah, BF-PDA is interesting as a baseline for push-down automata
17:55:49 <ais523> just like regular BF is interesting as a baseline for TC systems with I/O
17:56:05 <ais523> but with one stack, it's hard to make something that isn't an uninteresting push-down automaton deriv…
17:56:31 <NeroReflex> a stack machine is not useful as a turing machine
17:58:53 <ais523> well, it depends on how complex the stack elements are
17:59:05 <ais523> something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload is TC despite only having one stack
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18:04:59 <NeroReflex> "Swap the top two elements of the stack" this is not a LIFO stack
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18:06:32 <boily> jackpot. wasn't it asked that I should convert IATA into ICAO codes when querying ~metars?
18:07:23 <boily> http://www.weathergraphics.com/identifiers/
18:07:48 <boily> ↑ this list roxxorzes the meteorological socksen.
18:12:06 <ais523> NeroReflex: it's TC even without that
18:12:15 <ais523> also, it only looks at a finite amount of the top of the stack
18:12:18 <ais523> so it still looks LIFO
18:13:16 <NeroReflex> if i do the swap operation the first output is not the last value pushed
18:15:37 <ski> how do you take the derivative of BF ?
18:15:46 <ski> some variant of regular expression derivative ?
18:21:18 <ais523> NeroReflex: well a swap is equivalent to pop, pop, push, push
18:21:34 <ais523> using intermediate storage for the stored value
18:21:45 <ais523> in BF-PDA, you use the program's control flow as the intermediate storage
18:22:30 <ski> kmc : re Rust unsafeness, have you seen the impurity declarations in Mercury, <http://www.mercurylang.org/information/doc-latest/mercury_ref/Impurity.html> ?
18:24:10 <lexande> http://i.imgur.com/LfqyX3p.gif
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18:50:45 <ais523> wow, Azerbaijan accidentally released the results from this week's elections the days before the polls opened
18:52:59 <olsner> poor guys, now they have to regenerate all that fake election data
18:53:08 <fizzie> [[ The commission explained the gaffe by saying that a software developer had released the figures as a "test" at one polling station. It apologized for the "misunderstanding." ]]
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18:53:50 <fizzie> olsner: They already had the "real" election, with an even bigger win for the guy, so I guess they did regenerate it.
18:54:30 <boily> too simple and logical. I believe that the True Version comes from a temporal paradox!
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18:58:44 <Bike> i like the part where they say it was 2008 results even though it had the people running in 2013
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19:00:42 <olsner> that part might well be true, using runners from 2013 (because those are the ones that will run) and numbers from some other year does make sense as test data
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19:01:18 <olsner> assuming you don't have this year's numbers yet
19:03:16 <impomatic> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
19:04:30 <ion> @karma blah
19:05:11 <impomatic> Sorry. Was carry the laptop and a few books from office to house!
19:05:58 <ais523> clearly lambdabot wasn't here at the time
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19:15:12 <metasepia> Error (1): No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 a0 -> m0 b0))
19:15:13 <metasepia> arising from a use of `M9487173991581741433654.show_M9487173991581741433654'
19:15:13 <metasepia> add an instance declaration for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 a0 -> m0 b0))No instance for (GHC.Base.Monad m0) arising from a use of `e_1'
19:15:13 <metasepia> The type variable `m0' is ambiguous
19:15:13 <metasepia> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
19:15:13 <metasepia> Note: there are several potential instances:
19:15:14 <metasepia> instance GHC.Base.Monad ((->) r) -- Defined in `base:GHC.Base'
19:15:14 <metasepia> instance GHC.Base.Monad GHC.Types.IO -- Defined in `base:GHC.Base'
19:15:15 <metasepia> instance GHC.Base.Monad [] -- Defined in `base:GHC.Base'
19:15:26 <boily> oh. yeah. chännel flood.
19:16:53 <kmc> woah it's ski
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19:17:14 <kmc> Rust used to have pure / impure for functions as well, but we removed it
19:17:26 <kmc> I think partly because nobody could agree on what exactly "pure" means (this happens in Haskell as well)
19:17:36 <kmc> but I'm not sure of all the reasons; it was long before my time
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19:32:48 <ais523> kmc: gcc defines two sorts of purity for functions, which basically are to do with how aggressively the function can be cached
19:33:30 <ais523> one is basically "this function is 100% memoizable", the other is basically "this function is 100% memoizable except if global variables change values"
19:34:25 <ski> i was mainly thinking about possible similarities between the impurity system in Mercury, and the unsafeness system in Rust (which i don't have a clear understanding of)
19:35:13 <ais523> if you define it in terms of safe memoizability it's unambiguous how it works wrt effects, at least
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19:37:50 <kmc> ais523: yeah
19:39:06 <kmc> ski: the Rust system is very simple afaik. certain primitive operations (e.g. deref a raw pointer) are only allowed in unsafe code, which means either an 'unsafe fn' or inside an unsafe { ... } block
19:39:16 <kmc> and you can only call an 'unsafe fn' from unsafe code, as well
19:39:33 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/rust.html#unsafety
19:40:54 <kmc> in fact I think dereferencing a raw pointer is the only primitive unsafe operation; others are exposed as compiler intrinsics that look like normal unsafe fn's
19:41:28 <kmc> e.g. cast::transmute and its friends in http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/std/cast/index.html
19:42:35 <kmc> "This is a list of behaviour not considered unsafe in Rust terms, but that may be undesired... Accessing/modifying the file system"
19:42:48 <kmc> cool, signed overflow is defined in Rust
19:44:34 <ais523> kmc: as 2's complement?
19:46:40 <kmc> ais523: yes
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19:50:06 <kmc> i'm pretty sure raw pointers could be a library type + intrinsics too (as in Haskell)
19:51:22 <kmc> but I like that low level unsafe code in Rust doesn't get a lot more verbose than C
19:52:14 <ais523> kmc: if you're aiming to replace C, that's probably correct
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19:54:14 <kmc> we're aiming to replace C++, which is another language where you do low-level stuff to implement higher level memory-safe abstractions, and then use those
19:54:43 <kmc> the difference being 1) the memory safety in C++ comes from following a bunch of idioms and isn't checked by the compiler
19:54:56 <kmc> 2) people mostly don't bother and just treat C++ as C with random other shit thrown in
19:55:03 <kmc> which is a shame
19:55:12 <kmc> but High Church C++ can be pretty fucking cumbersome
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19:55:17 <ais523> kmc: I've seen conflicting statements on 2)
19:55:27 <ais523> although that definitely seems true in the games industry
19:55:38 <kmc> yeah it varies a lot between codebases
19:55:59 <kmc> and C++ isn't very good about letting you pick and choose features
19:56:19 <kmc> if you want to "do it right" then you're quickly sucked into using everything
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19:58:09 <ais523> kmc: you're giving me bad memories of arguing with C++ fanboys now
20:00:04 <ais523> NeroReflex: my line was in response to <kmc> if you want to "do it right" then you're quickly sucked into using everything
20:00:08 <ais523> a statement which I agree with
20:00:13 <ais523> but many C++ fanboys don't seem to
20:00:38 <kmc> this is why I say C++ is bad in the opposite way of most bad languages
20:00:45 <kmc> PHP is not cohesive enough; C++ is too cohesive
20:01:25 <kmc> it's this ornate structure built by very clever people and it all makes sense but it's a pain to actually live there
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20:01:46 <kmc> the frank gehry building of languages
20:01:51 <NeroReflex> oh, well, you must use the language that is more adapt
20:02:47 <NeroReflex> i dont' t think there are a "right" way of doing something, but only way to do it better than others
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20:03:12 <Bike> what's the fitness landscape for languages look like
20:04:37 <mnoqy> fitness landscape covered in gym mats and pools of sweat
20:05:54 <mnoqy> fitness landscape that's just a really big arm flexing. constructing house on fitness landscape is not advised
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21:28:02 <kmc> there are not enough bonghits in the world for this makefile
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21:38:36 <lexande> kmc: did you exhaust them all? have we passed peak bonghits?
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21:41:17 <kmc> bonghits are a renewable resource
21:41:24 <shachaf> perhaps there were never enough in the first place
21:41:37 <shachaf> do you need uncountably many
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22:16:29 <oerjan> Taneb: in set theory the empty set has no universal complement, since that would be a set of all sets, from which you can easily derive russell's paradox with the other axioms.
22:17:00 <oerjan> naive set theory had one, of course, and was inconsistent.
22:17:48 <oerjan> (zfc set theory, that is.)
22:18:50 <oerjan> nor can any other set have a ... right ... because you could just take their union.
22:19:11 <myname> i do think, in linguistik there is the opponent of ""
22:19:26 <myname> i.e. whatever string you match against it, it is the same
22:19:46 <myname> you need that to make a group for finite automata
22:20:05 <oerjan> myname: well .* is the universal regular expression, if that's what you're saying.
22:20:41 <oerjan> there's no problem making a complement of languages over an alphabet, since strings over an alphabet form a set.
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22:26:51 <Koen_> I bet the complement of a nice programming language is all but nice
22:27:28 <Koen_> ouh, new challenge: make up two programming languages that are each other's complement
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22:29:29 <Koen_> hmm I guess it you take brainfuck, the complement over +-><[]., is the set of strings with unmatched [ and ]... so you'd just need to find a way to give some sense to unmatched brackets
22:30:38 <myname> i bet it's way easier to make that work with a language of just 2 symbols
22:32:16 <Bike> who needs sense, just define "~brainfuck is the language of all strings with unmatched brackets" and let someone else figure out what it's for!
22:38:25 <Bike> "Ghost_Of_MNG bot banned from Mozilla IRC #developers. Ghost_Of_JNG shows up in its place. Whoever is doing this: well played."
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22:59:35 <oerjan> Bike: are both of these formats they refuse to support (i recall the first one is)
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23:07:40 <olsner> taneb, tanflo, never a miscommunication
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23:09:36 <oerjan> imagine if tides were completely unpredictable.
23:10:41 <ais523> oerjan: due to the moon moving around the earth at random rather than orbiting?
23:10:48 <oerjan> of course in this world there would _still_ be someone using that as evidence of god.
23:11:09 <oerjan> ais523: i guess that would be one way.
23:13:57 <oerjan> Koen_: btw we solved the 139 mystery yesterday
23:15:07 <oerjan> the trick is that at one point, the _inner_ loop stops on a different cell.
23:15:36 <ais523> Unicode has washing instruction symbols?
23:15:40 <Koen_> because we reach 0, right
23:17:06 <oerjan> ais523: is that related to the ‹, which is just a single non-utf8 byte
23:17:26 <oerjan> also, in retrospect it probably does.
23:17:30 <ais523> oerjan: it's Konversation, its wide range of failure modes is kind-of larger than can easily fit into a human brain
23:17:38 <ais523> let me copy-and-paste what I saw:
23:18:17 <oerjan> well that's not what i saw from fungot.
23:18:17 <fungot> oerjan: i was hoping to see something like embedded assembly though ( like 4bit rot) this sounds impossible, it happens; some programs have been written on. :d
23:18:32 <ais523> oerjan: I was wondering if it'd copy-and-paste back as malformed Unicode
23:19:34 <ais523> the character doesn't render in Firefox
23:19:44 <ais523> and causes an error when entered into Wikipedia's search box
23:19:54 <ais523> which is the normal method of determining what a weird Unicode character is
23:19:56 <oerjan> i saw fungot's as a left-ward pointing variation of ^ and so was what i pasted although the first was probably not utf-8 while my paste was. yours i saw as reverse video K
23:19:56 <fungot> oerjan: a simple, programmable mouseless editor, though.) ( 200 0.) ( 2 y))
23:20:13 <ais523> "An error has occurred while searching: The search backend returned an error: "
23:21:00 <oerjan> ais523: it's byte 139, which i guess isn't legal latin1 but i set irssi to use cp1252 as fallback which people recommended.
23:21:22 <oerjan> and then it becomes the left arrowhead.
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23:22:27 <oerjan> ais523: i think your paste stripped the 8th bit.
23:22:41 <Koen_> every time you use a calculator to do a simple subtraction, something breaks in my heart
23:22:51 <Bike> oh, deal with it, ya baby.
23:22:58 <oerjan> Koen_: i do it to bloody demonstrate
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23:54:36 <oerjan> <Bike> it's like taking Don Quixote and renaming everybody except Rozinante and calling it a new novel. <-- Sir Backquote Fighting the Solar Panels
23:56:28 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> hello, my name is Alexandre, and I am a fentimanholic. <-- i suggest moving to hexham to get better access. i hear there's a recent opening.
23:56:59 <oerjan> i'm sure Taneb won't mind boily getting his old room.
00:00:08 <Taneb> Man, I miss Fentimans
00:00:20 <Taneb> Actually, I think I miss liquid in general
00:00:23 <Taneb> Maybe I'm just thirsty
00:00:47 <oerjan> so they don't have fentimans in york, i take.
00:01:00 <oerjan> only in hexham and montreal
00:01:03 <Taneb> I don't know about that
00:01:09 <Taneb> Just I'm on a student budget now
00:06:21 <oerjan> <impomatic> ^ change polarity, switch < with > and - with + <-- i think it would be a bit more interesting if it also swapped [ and ].
00:07:09 <oerjan> because that, unlike the others, might mess things up badly.
00:11:08 <oerjan> eek indian ocean monster cyclone
00:13:56 <ais523> oerjan: doesn't it automatically make the program malformed unless it contains no loops?
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00:14:13 <ais523> I guess you could use the implied loop-balancing rules from FukYorBrane
00:14:25 <oerjan> well i assume it would be somewhat lenient
00:14:33 <lexande> mismatched brackets cause monster cyclones? shit
00:14:56 <lexande> forgive us, we didn't know
00:15:38 <oerjan> ^bf ((])S:^):^IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS YOU KNOW IT
00:15:46 <oerjan> ^ul ((])S:^):^IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS YOU KNOW IT
00:15:46 <fungot> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ...too much output!
00:17:58 <lexande> well, i have never known the future
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00:19:47 <Taneb> Hmm, that underload interp is non-compliant
00:21:19 <oerjan> since there's absolutely no point in a compliant one.
00:22:23 <oerjan> you cannot quote the one thing that actually _needs_ to be handled with quoting.
00:28:45 <oerjan> i recall ais523 said the quoting was just leftovers from overload or something.
00:29:04 <ais523> in Underload you used square brackets for pointers and pointer targets
00:29:34 <Taneb> ais523, how is Underlambda going
00:30:22 <Taneb> How is your thingy going about the circuits and whatnot
00:31:42 <ais523> although I've got to do a bunch of category theory again tonight :(
00:31:49 <ais523> category theory makes me angry
00:32:08 <Taneb> Today I was formally introduced to functions
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00:33:51 <oerjan> i hope the functions were polite.
00:34:27 <ais523> oerjan: somewhere between 1/3 and 1/5 were, I imagine
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00:36:11 <shachaf> did i make ais523 angry :'(
00:39:23 <Bike> https://twitter.com/neilfws/status/388462601916542976/photo/1/large something went very wrong here
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00:43:47 <oerjan> are you talking about the formatting
00:44:37 <oerjan> it does seem like some columns are mushed together
00:46:37 <oerjan> also what is an arath.
00:46:44 <oerjan> and should we be afraid of it.
00:52:54 <Sgeo> "In the case of purchasing, a player makes a request for purchasing an item at a given price, and will pay that price to the order with the lowest listed price. In other words, you will buy the item at your price and not the seller's price if yours is higher than his sell price"
00:52:58 <Sgeo> That's about EVE Online
00:53:05 <Sgeo> How does that compare/contrast to how it works irl?
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00:53:46 <kmc> it seems opposite
00:54:21 <kmc> I think trades usually happen at the price already on the book, not at the price of the order which is taking liquidity (and so will never reach the order book)
00:54:38 <kmc> because I mean if you're paying attention you would just ask for the lower price anyway
00:55:06 <kmc> but you might not be fast enough, plus there are all these weird order types to consider (hidden, floating, etc)
00:55:09 <kmc> so I dunno
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01:09:19 <Sgeo> Hmm, I wonder why EVE does it the way it does, then. More onus on.. the second person to be smart?
01:10:02 <coppro> Sgeo: like, the stock market?
01:10:38 <Sgeo> I don't know how markets work :(
01:15:47 <Sgeo> ....WIndows Defender decided that an SQLite3 journal file used by my IRC client was malware
01:16:05 <kmc> maybe it has some malware in
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01:16:23 <kmc> X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*
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01:37:08 <oerjan> kmc: i'm happy to report that my browser did _not_ suddenly decide today's logs were a virus.
01:37:23 <kmc> I think it has to appear at the start of a file
01:37:28 <kmc> I'll be sure to send it exactly at midnight next time.
01:46:47 <oerjan> someone claimed the 2.5% yearly inflation means doubling in 28 years
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02:47:13 <Sgeo> o.O there's a person who doesn't like the lens library
02:47:30 <Sgeo> <= Netsplit between *.net and *.split. Users quit: Bike, sebbu, AwfulProgrammer, olsner
02:49:27 <Sgeo> => Netsplit between *.net and *.split ended. Users joined: Bike, olsner, AwfulProgrammer, sebbu
02:49:39 <Sgeo> _after_ Bike said Yo
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03:21:19 <Sgeo> So, I went into a channel which would be the most relevant channel for a language, and asked why the language exists
03:25:31 <kmc> http://mccaine.org/2013/10/09/dwarf-fortress-a-marxist-analysis/
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03:39:02 <Sgeo> And... no one here bothered to fall for it --- I was referring to the "racket/gui" language in Racket, which is just Racket + (require racket/gui)
03:42:12 <oerjan> how tremendously exciting.
03:42:42 <oerjan> i see elliott agrees, and on perfect time too.
03:44:49 <oerjan> i am eagerly waiting about sgeo telling us how he willfully splits infinitives to rile up other channels.
03:48:38 <Sgeo> *to pathetically rile
03:49:47 <oerjan> darn i actually missed that one
03:50:29 <oerjan> i knew i'd get bad karma from this.
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04:37:10 <oerjan> yo, infographic http://xkcd.com/1276/
04:38:31 <kmc> that's cool
04:40:24 <Bike> I didn't thing Voyager's shadow would be so big.
04:48:59 <Sgeo> "(permadeath)"?
04:49:26 <Bike> planet of the roguelikes
04:53:21 <oerjan> Sgeo: those wacky names are references to http://xkcd.com/1253/
04:56:45 <Bike> goldenpalace.com, that's classy
04:58:54 <Bike> http://i.somethingawful.com/u/livestock/2009/11/11_17_dogs.jpg related
05:06:29 <kmc> joke ruined by incorrect choice of image compression format
05:06:43 <Bike> LARGE, FLIGHTLESS DOG
05:06:55 <kmc> hm somehow I missed #1253
05:07:12 <oerjan> kmc has this rare condition that makes him unable to read jpg compressed text.
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05:16:37 * oerjan now learned about goldenpalace.com. and that they _would_ be likely to try to get a planet named after them.
05:17:37 <kmc> wow a naked woman holding some playing cards wants to give me €300
05:17:41 <kmc> this is the best day ever!!
05:24:55 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1539
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06:17:07 <lexande> "We regret to inform you that we do not allow residents from New York to play on our system"
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07:31:25 <oerjan> ais523_: while i'm checking out r/friends, the fact that 2^31-1 is prime is used implicitly by my Unlambda in Intercal.
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09:07:24 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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10:23:37 <Taneb> Good things to hear in a lecture: "Forget everything I just said"
10:26:02 <Taneb> This is a fun lecture
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10:32:51 <Taneb> He's trying to remember set theory
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10:33:19 <Taneb> ("He" being the lecturer)
10:35:48 <Taneb> It's going over stuff we've already done, but /practical/
10:36:35 <Taneb> It is abstract too
10:36:49 <Taneb> Set theory and what have you
10:37:16 <Taneb> Just basic abstract, done boringly
10:38:48 <Taneb> Endless bloody sets
10:40:32 <Taneb> Next week we move to functions
10:41:14 <mnoqy> i guess this is an introductory course? nobody's supposed to know math
10:41:34 <Taneb> Oh look he's proving intersection is associative using a venn diagram
10:42:07 <Phantom___Hoover> and a-level is pointlessly modular, too, so they can't even assume you learnt a given thing at a-level
10:43:27 <Taneb> How do you know this PH you are practically foreign
10:44:20 <Phantom___Hoover> because i'm sitting around with people who all did different things at a-level and have had to re-learn them for the benefit of those who didn't
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11:28:00 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover: :/
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13:42:30 <Taneb> How do I prove that in radians sin x ~= x when x =~= 0?
13:44:35 <boily> when x → 0, d(sin(x))/dx ~= 1.
13:45:53 <boily> @tell oerjan but it's expensive! and I don't think there are that many phở joints in hexham.
13:46:18 <Taneb> What's that glyph after the ph
13:46:49 <boily> just a moment... ♪
13:48:15 <boily> U+1EDF LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH HORN AND HOOK ABOVE
13:48:51 <Taneb> No, I can't remember any phở joints in Hexham
13:48:54 <fizzie> Still missing the reverse of `unicode, I see.
13:48:57 <Taneb> Maybe one's opened, though
13:50:45 <boily> the more diacritics stacked on vowels, the tastier the szoup.
13:53:29 <HackEgo> [LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH HORN AND HOOK ABOVE]
13:54:00 <fizzie> (With any luck, someone had already added that in. Oh well, it's good to be redundant.)
13:54:45 <fizzie> `run unicode SNOWMAN | xargs unidecode
13:55:23 <fizzie> A snowman went through a pipe there, but no-one saw it.
13:55:54 <boily> I never understood what xargs is for.
13:56:07 <HackEgo> [INSERTION SYMBOL] [NORTH WEST ARROW TO CORNER] [UPWARDS ARROW WITH DOUBLE STROKE] [ERASE TO THE RIGHT] [SOUTH EAST ARROW TO CORNER] [DOWNWARDS ARROW WITH DOUBLE STROKE]
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13:56:21 <fizzie> It's for piping snowmans.
13:56:34 <boily> `learn xargs is for piping snowmen.
13:56:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:57:22 <myname> boily: xargs is awesome in combination with find or ls
13:57:36 <boily> myname: ah? care to explain why?
13:58:08 <fizzie> `run unidecode ☯ # now with code points
13:58:25 <myname> people somewhere else really needed to know which paths are longer than 255 chars, because windows is stupid
13:58:31 <myname> how would you do that?
14:00:23 <boily> find -type d | grep -E '.{256,}'
14:00:46 <fizzie> boily: I don't think "paths" involves only directories.
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14:01:35 <myname> tricky :D okay, a bit modified: you want to know how long each path is
14:02:00 <myname> okay, you don't need it for that, either
14:02:49 <boily> fizzie: find -type b -o -type c -o -type d -o -type p -o -type f -o -type l -o -type s -o -type D, then :p
14:03:10 <fizzie> Arguably many uses of "find | xargs" should be "find -exec" instead, it's just that the -exec syntax is kinda crummy.
14:03:24 <fizzie> I've gotten to the habit of "find -print0 | xargs -0" instead.
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14:04:56 <boily> btw, what is a door?
14:05:09 <fizzie> It's a Solaris IPC thing.
14:07:04 <fizzie> You can have a server behind a door, and then have clients call it and pass things through it; and the door can be visible in the file system. Kind of something between (non-abstract-namespace) Unix domain sockets and a RPC mechanism.
14:07:46 <boily> sounds pretty useful. there must be some reason it hasn't gained more visibility.
14:08:23 <fizzie> I guess it's also a swinging or sliding barrier that will close the entrance to a room or building or vehicle?
14:09:08 <boily> that kind of door is there for physics teachers to try to quantum tunnel through.
14:09:42 <fizzie> I think it just didn't have enough benefits over "traditional" mechanisms to accomplish the same thing to quantum tunnel outside Solaris.
14:10:10 <boily> but then, we're stuck with horrendous abominations like d-bus and suchlike.
14:10:29 <fizzie> You can pass file descriptors through a door, but you can do that over Unix domain sockets too. And there's a library written around it, but you can write libraries around anything.
14:11:29 <HackEgo> [U+263A WHITE SMILING FACE]
14:11:44 <fizzie> That doesn't look very white in this terminal.
14:12:15 <boily> them pixels drawing the face are somewhat white in this terminal, I guess... (what colourscheme do I use again?)
14:12:23 <fizzie> Oh would you look at that, I need to catch a
14:12:27 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'BUS'"
14:12:41 <fizzie> (That thing is so useless. That's U+1F68C.)
14:14:13 <boily> hmm... urxvt/weechat seem to have some trouble with chars outside the BMP...
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14:24:19 <fizzie> My urxvt/irssi setup, too.
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14:24:56 <fizzie> Also I got some surrogates out when I tried to paste one to Unidecode, which is the silliest.
14:25:53 <fizzie> (Did Java's Modified-UTF-8 use UTF-8-encoded surrogates?
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15:14:16 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'POULET'"
15:15:24 <oerjan> <Taneb> How do I prove that in radians sin x ~= x when x =~= 0? <-- i recall from some discussion that it's quite tricky to do from the intuitive geometric definitions without being circular.
15:15:51 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 29m 57s ago: but it's expensive! and I don't think there are that many phở joints in hexham.
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15:17:50 <oerjan> Taneb: of course from the power series definition of sin x it's "trivial".
15:21:06 <oerjan> wtf did this get a commit http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/7003033326b8
15:22:02 <oerjan> oh wait i see, it was with `run probably, so some of the >'s got shell interpreted
15:22:18 <HackEgo> + \ +[+ \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
15:22:49 <oerjan> myname: see my previous link
15:23:21 <HackEgo> bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
15:24:32 <boily> `run echo -e "#!/usr/bin/env python\n# -*- encoding: utf-8 -*-\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\ntry:\n print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8')\nexcept KeyError:\n print u'Úńḱńóẃń ćh́áŕáćt́éŕ.'" >bin/unicode
15:24:42 <boily> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A
15:24:51 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 8, in <module> \ print u'Úńḱńóẃń ćh́áŕáćt́éŕ.' \ UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-6: ordinal not in range(128)
15:24:55 <oerjan> boily: um what did you change
15:25:21 <boily> oerjan: tried to add a try/except for `unicode not to choke on a KeyError.
15:25:36 <boily> `run echo -e "#!/usr/bin/env python\n# -*- encoding: utf-8 -*-\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\ntry:\n print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8')\nexcept KeyError:\n print u'Unknown character.'" >bin/unicode
15:26:30 <boily> `unicode MAKE MY DAY, PUNK.
15:26:43 <oerjan> Taneb: iirc you essentially have to go through a proof that the circumference of a circle is 2pi*r
15:28:00 <oerjan> or something like that. different ways of saying essentially the same limit thing.
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15:31:18 <oerjan> sin'(x) = cos(x) is of course one of those.
15:31:24 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
15:31:54 <oerjan> (which allows you to get yours with l'hôpital's rule.)
15:32:00 <Taneb> oerjan, which was the proof I was trying to understand
15:32:13 <Taneb> (that is, that sin'(x)=cos(x))
15:33:14 <oerjan> or to be precise, you need to carefully define the length of a circle arc somehow.
15:33:52 <oerjan> like how archimedes did it, when he proved c = 2pi*r.
15:34:28 <oerjan> although in modern treatments, the length of a smooth curve is defined using derivatives.
15:34:39 <oerjan> i think if you do that, you get a non-circular proof.
15:35:03 <Phantom___Hoover> <Taneb> How do I prove that in radians sin x ~= x when x =~= 0?
15:35:24 <Phantom___Hoover> oerjan has presumably told you this already but the maclaurin series is the quickest way
15:35:50 <oerjan> Phantom___Hoover: i did, but i also guessed he's asking for a deeper issue.
15:36:06 <lexande> Phantom___Hoover: well, that's circular for Taneb's question unless you say that sin is defined to be the limit of this power series
15:36:40 <lexande> (as opposed to being defined to be some nonsense with circles)
15:37:24 <Phantom___Hoover> this is all true, but actually proving that d/dx(sin x) = cos x is not something i've ever seen, at least
15:37:32 <Taneb> I think mostly I'm falling asleep
15:38:00 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, it's pretty easy using that lim_(x->0) (sin x) = x
15:38:15 <Taneb> And the limits definition of differentials
15:38:46 <Taneb> No, that was the thing I asked about
15:38:47 <oerjan> Phantom___Hoover: this is the x and y of the xy problem in question.
15:39:03 <Jafet> Modern trigonometry avoids circular reasoning.
15:39:11 <oerjan> which are equivalent to each other.
15:39:16 <Taneb> I wasn't actually meant to do anything
15:39:24 <Taneb> Put the milk in the fridge maybe
15:39:27 <Taneb> Guess I failed at that
15:40:39 * oerjan checks he didn't forget to unpack his own groceries
15:41:18 <oerjan> Taneb: anyway it's good to ask such questions, it's what i vaguely recall doing when i started univ.
15:41:25 -!- lmt has joined.
15:41:32 <lmt> ok which one of you assholes posted this http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/1o7ktk/what_happened_to_real_redstone/
15:42:40 <oerjan> lmt: i don't recall that nick here.
15:43:04 <boily> oerjan: does it mean I can spam^H^H^H^Hkindly welcome lmt?
15:43:40 <lmt> who are you, the NSA
15:43:49 <oerjan> boily: i meant the author of the reddit post. please stand by for answer to your question.
15:43:59 <lexande> Taneb: i mean if the point is just to intuitively convince yourself, imagining the circle is probably sufficient
15:44:04 <HackEgo> 2013-03-19.txt:21:52:54: <lmt> which is a hallmark of a good esolang
15:44:13 <oerjan> i never trust HackEgo's No outputs on first - right.
15:44:21 <lmt> Phantom___Hoover: good
15:44:26 <lmt> feel the pain
15:44:47 <lexande> since it's just saying that near the x axis, the circle is practically vertical
15:45:10 * oerjan almost forgot to swat Jafet -----###
15:45:48 <lmt> I just can't appreciate the kind of vast, redstone-powered computers that folks build in Minecraft. While it clearly takes dedication and talent to design them, it's kind of like looking at someone's model railroad or stamp collection. It's impressive, but not something that really 'impacts' you beyond saying, "Wow, this guy has a ton of time on his hands".
15:45:49 <boily> oerjan: oh well. maybe next time! (and hopefully it won't be an overly attached misguided young teenaged colombian girl...)
15:46:25 <oerjan> boily: what we need to ask, are those spanish people all the same girl
15:47:11 <oerjan> lmt: what is the point of minecraft _other_ than doing such things.
15:47:39 <lmt> building stuff
15:47:48 <lmt> that looks good on renders
15:48:50 <oerjan> `learn lmt is insufficiently mad for this channel.
15:49:49 <Phantom___Hoover> i can kind of sympathise to an extent though, MC circuitry was far more interesting when it was all about crazy physics exploits
15:50:05 <lmt> i'm the only one mad enough for this channel, actually
15:50:16 <boily> ah... the good old times where I exploited grass growth for my mad contraptions...
15:50:20 <lmt> Phantom___Hoover: yeah, redstone isn't really a particularly good esolang
15:50:52 <lmt> the most esoteric part of minecraft is getting upside-down stairs to align with each other
15:51:39 <Phantom___Hoover> the block update detector becoming an actual block was the dumbest thing ever
15:52:47 <lmt> huh? it did?
15:55:15 <lmt> on the other hand have you seen the guy creating spawners in vanilla survival
15:55:46 <lmt> minecraft is not quite dead yet
15:56:48 <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress is where it's at
15:57:08 <Phantom___Hoover> i was under the impression that minecraft has been completely usurped by its own modding community
15:57:16 <lmt> Phantom___Hoover: here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iaU1TvIQqM
15:57:21 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, GO ON
15:57:28 <lmt> Phantom___Hoover: the most insane thing i've ever seen
15:57:38 <Taneb> VANILLA OR ANTHRACITE
15:57:41 <lmt> pure vanilla survival
15:59:22 <Phantom___Hoover> i have gone back to my opinion that mineral distribution is still complete shit
15:59:51 <lmt> on the other hand if you make it more realistic it will just be boring as hell
16:00:07 <boily> boatvators are dead??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
16:00:49 <lmt> every embark would just have at most one mineral
16:01:15 <Phantom___Hoover> lmt, anthracite is my mod, it adds high-yield coal ore to some stone layers and adds iron ore to others
16:01:33 <Phantom___Hoover> makes it actually possible to start a steel industry on most sites
16:01:53 <lmt> if you want to start a steel industry pick a proper embark
16:02:30 <Phantom___Hoover> even with dfhack's prospect-on-embark-screen thing i wasn't able to find a site with coal, flux and ore
16:03:03 <lmt> well keep looking!
16:03:10 <lmt> prospect-on-embark underreports flux
16:03:13 <HackEgo> [U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DE8C DUNNO]
16:03:22 <lmt> and who needs coal
16:04:01 <lmt> i have never used coal ever
16:04:08 <Phantom___Hoover> anyway this argument is not going to be anything but worthless and acrimonious, let's stop
16:04:10 <Taneb> You need coal or charcoal to make steel
16:04:11 <lmt> there's lava on every map
16:04:17 <lmt> on every map
16:04:33 <Taneb> Choosing a site now
16:06:02 <Phantom___Hoover> Taneb, btw dfhack is now essentially "the dwarf fortress unofficial patch project"; i highly recommend it even if you never actually use any of its tools
16:06:44 <lmt> it even fixes the cursor jumping to the middle of the screen when you switch modes!
16:07:14 <Phantom___Hoover> sadly it doesn't fix the need to have four different cursor modes
16:08:09 <lmt> btw i'm serious about never using coal - i dont' think i've ever even seen any
16:08:44 <lmt> yeah but that doesn't actually prevent you from having steel
16:09:10 <Phantom___Hoover> ten layers of sedimentary stone which may contain useful ores, then a hundred layers of worthless metamorphic and igneous intrusive
16:09:55 <Phantom___Hoover> lmt, i do know this, my perspective is just slightly skewed on account of just having spent a while playing on a glacier
16:10:30 <lmt> that's how geology works, yes
16:11:33 <Phantom___Hoover> you can't fit an unlimited number of people into a given space because they're lying down
16:11:59 <Phantom___Hoover> you can't feed a couple hundred people off two underground farm plots
16:13:03 <Taneb> You can't attach an archimedan screw to a watermill and make a perpetual motion machine
16:13:16 <Phantom___Hoover> you can't fit a few hundred boulders into the same space taken up by a chair
16:13:37 <Taneb> Pressure sometimes causes liquids to end up higher than when they started in real life
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16:15:27 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, embark on a small island y/n
16:15:57 <Phantom___Hoover> i had the same problem on the glacier, it's just boring in the long run
16:16:44 <Taneb> No, you encounter megabeasts
16:16:59 <Taneb> One of my previous fortresses got wiped by a fire demon on a small island
16:17:48 <Taneb> Embark with no reported flux y/n
16:22:33 <Taneb> Time to make a new world, then
16:26:52 <fizzie> U+D83D and U+DE8C are surrogates. Dunno where they come from.
16:27:24 <fizzie> "The Python language environment officially only uses UCS-2 internally since version 2.0, but the UTF-8 decoder to "Unicode" produces correct UTF-16."
16:27:27 <fizzie> Oh, I guess from there.
16:28:09 <fizzie> "Since Python 2.2, "wide" builds of Unicode are supported which use UTF-32 instead;[12] these are primarily used on Linux."
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16:30:51 <fizzie> `run python -c 'unichr(65536)'
16:30:53 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ ValueError: unichr() arg not in range(0x10000) (narrow Python build)
16:31:01 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, this worldgen is up to the Age of Heroes
16:31:05 <fizzie> "narrow Python build" I guess that's why it doesn't do non-BMP.
16:34:49 <Taneb> Worldgen 2 complete
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16:53:18 <Taneb> btw I'm leaving at 7
16:55:30 <Taneb> On another note, it's less than two weeks until I attend a relatively Haskell-themed event
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16:59:05 <mnoqy> relatively haskell-themed, eh?
16:59:42 <Taneb> It's got people like Phil Wadler and Neil Mitchell
17:01:09 <FreeFull> I can't figure how to make the Rust 0.8 REPL evaluate anything without segfaulting
17:02:39 <FreeFull> If I write code with an error, it displays the error, but if I write valid code it segfaults
17:02:53 <fizzie> A segfault is how you know it's working.
17:03:16 <FreeFull> Maybe the interpreter in the HEAD is better
17:03:46 <fizzie> You mean the limitless power of your imagination?
17:04:53 -!- lmt has joined.
17:06:53 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, this world looks more promising
17:07:43 <Taneb> As in it actually has flux
17:09:23 <oerjan> but can you make capacitors out of it
17:09:27 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, embark next to a human town y/n
17:09:49 <Taneb> Alas Doc Brown was not a dwarf
17:09:59 <boily> I like capacitors that go *BOOM*.
17:10:31 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, warm, woodland, stream, moderate vegetation, calm, clay, deep soil, multiple shallow and deep metals, flux
17:11:04 <Taneb> lmt, this is elliott, Phantom___Hoover, and I playing
17:11:04 <lmt> dwarf fortress is too boring :(
17:11:11 <Taneb> Boring is impossible
17:11:41 <lmt> right, the only way to make it non-boring is by griefing your own game
17:12:20 <Taneb> Or by having three clashing playstyles interacting
17:12:27 <lmt> same thing
17:12:35 <boily> of course DF is boring. how would you get your minerals otherwise?
17:12:49 <Taneb> lmt, yeah, but it feels less self-harm-y
17:12:54 <lmt> there are no drills in DF if that's what you mean
17:13:35 <lmt> which is unfortunate, would be cool if you could strap a giant corkscrew onto a pole and bore all the way down to lava
17:13:54 <Taneb> You'd need a p. long pole
17:14:10 <Jafet> Embark with: one adamantium corkscrew
17:14:34 <lmt> Taneb: you just keep adding sections to it
17:16:23 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, I'm gonna embark here now
17:17:05 <kmc> http://mccaine.org/2013/10/09/dwarf-fortress-a-marxist-analysis/
17:19:06 <fungot> olsner: so i just filter it out my end
17:19:36 <Jafet> fungot is not in a mood for talking.
17:19:37 <fungot> Jafet: it just might not be so useful if one cannot interleave conditionals as well the quick-sort code is unusual, so " hello, world always nops in those situations)
17:19:47 <boily> fungot: how are you today?
17:19:50 <lmt> dwarf fortress would be nicer with progressively harder sieges and building destroyers that destroy constructed walls and traps
17:20:24 <boily> dwarf fortress needs endermen.
17:20:35 <lmt> boily: endermen were nerfed
17:20:47 <lmt> they can't pick up things like cobble anymore :(
17:20:58 <boily> but... but... whyyyyy...
17:21:46 <Jafet> Dwarf Fortress will be nicer once toady writes the actual game on it
17:22:56 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, good news
17:23:05 <lmt> boily: i don't know.. i'm sorry :(
17:24:29 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, and limonite
17:24:35 <Taneb> Doin' p. good so far
17:27:20 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, and we've struck galena!
17:27:32 <Taneb> So we can make silver for hammers and lead goblets for elves
17:29:02 <boily> the races of DF: dwarves, humans, elves, goblins, and hammers.
17:30:03 <oerjan> you'd sort of think goblets were for goblins
17:30:26 <Taneb> No, the hammers are for the goblins
17:30:43 <lmt> for elves i recommend making a giant death trap
17:30:52 <Taneb> boily, technically kobolds are a race too
17:30:53 <lmt> possibly involving lead goblets somehow
17:31:22 <boily> Taneb: I deny kobolds. I refuse to admit their existence.
17:31:36 <Jafet> You could serve them deadly poison in lead goblets. Wait, I guess that's not implemented.
17:32:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: gobble gobble).
17:33:45 <lmt> oerjan left! let's party!!
17:34:04 <lmt> i'm blue, dabadee dabada, dabadee dabada, dabadee dabada
17:34:50 <boily> lmt: if you want to party hard, try ~duck.
17:35:47 <metasepia> --- Query information from Duck Duck Go
17:36:02 <lmt> ~duck how to party hard
17:36:02 <metasepia> "Party Hard" is a song by Andrew W.K., first released as a single in 2001 and included on his first album I Get Wet.
17:36:21 <Taneb> Wasn't someone in this channel trying to apply graph theory to Dwarf Fortress to find the optimum workshop/stockpile layout
17:36:38 <mnoqy> that sounds plausible
17:36:45 <lmt> where else would they be?
17:37:56 <boily> #df doesn't seem to be very dwarfortressian...
17:38:14 <olsner> whatever dwarf fortress calls its IRC channel then
17:38:32 <lmt> #dwarffortress is incredibly bad
17:38:57 <lmt> i can't recommend that channel for any purpose
17:42:04 <metasepia> KPWT 111735Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM BKN023 OVC032 10/06 A3018 RMK AO1
17:50:21 <boily> fizzie: nah. going to open an issue for that.
17:50:52 <fizzie> Is "open an issue" some kind of an euphemism?
17:51:20 <boily> only if you have wet github dreams.
17:52:37 <lmt> who doesn't?
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17:52:54 <lmt> i mean, octopussies?
17:54:54 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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17:56:43 <fizzie> I should make that channel stats page update somehow semiautomatic, it had been a month since I last refreshed it.
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18:03:29 <metasepia> KNYC 111751Z AUTO 08011G16KT 030V110 10SM BKN019 OVC046 18/14 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP170 60002 T01780139 10183 20167 58008 $
18:05:46 <metasepia> CYUL 111700Z 01005KT 15SM BKN240 18/08 A3017 RMK CI7 SLP218 DENSITY ALT 200FT
18:06:08 <boily> hm. kinda the same weather down there.
18:06:12 <olsner> are IATA codes those normal airport codes you see on boarding passes etc?
18:06:51 <boily> olsner: yes. IATA codes are 3 letters long, ICAO 4 letters (sometimes 3 alpha + 1 num).
18:07:34 <lexande> there are some namespace issues because the FAA assigns three letter codes to every US airport
18:07:39 <metasepia> EFHK 111750Z 30008KT CAVOK 06/03 Q1026 NOSIG
18:07:49 <fizzie> That's so short compared to all you guys.
18:08:04 <olsner> is three letters even enough for the world's airports? seems like such a small namespace
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18:08:34 <lexande> and the IATA assigns three letter codes to every airport with commercial international flights and many but by no means all others
18:08:35 <boily> olsner: no, therefore ICAO. as lexande said, there are clashes between IATA codes.
18:09:06 <lexande> and if a US airport has an IATA code then the FAA code matches it
18:09:07 <fizzie> 43762 lines in the master-location-identifier-database-20130801.csv mentioned before.
18:09:49 <olsner> they should switch to unicode so they get more letters
18:10:08 <lexande> but there are US airports with no IATA codes (and no commercial flights) with FAA codes that the IATA uses elsewhere
18:10:14 <lexande> CBG is perhabs the most notable examble
18:11:19 <lexande> KCBG, Cambridge Minnesota Municipal Airport, is known to the FAA as CBG and not known to the IATA
18:11:51 <olsner> and cambridge, england is iata's cbg?
18:11:54 <lexande> while EGSC, Cambridge UK Airport, is known to the IATA as CBG (and not known to the FAA since it's not in the US)
18:12:25 <olsner> I'm sure the FAA *know* about it
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18:12:46 <fizzie> The xkcd "geohash" in this graticule few days ago was right on one of the runways of the Helsinki-Vantaa airport.
18:12:48 <lexande> well the IATA also *know* about KCBG
18:13:10 <lexande> i've flown to an airport with no ICAO code
18:13:14 <lexande> kind of a hassle for my openflights
18:14:34 <fizzie> http://carabiner.peeron.com/xkcd/map/map.html?date=2013-10-08&lat=60&long=24&zoom=9 -- there
18:15:00 <fizzie> (Sorry, I think they renamed to "Helsinki Airport" recently.)
18:17:47 <lexande> it's just (-2.1575, 34.2212)
18:18:24 <lexande> actually i found some website pretending it's called GTZ but that seems to be made up
18:19:36 <lexande> hmm, i guess it's not true that FAA codes always match IATA codes when both exist
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18:33:45 <olsner> bay12games? that's ... obvious
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19:19:08 <boily> I'm bored. anybody knows of an exotic OS I could boot in virtualbox?
19:20:35 * boily thwacks ion with an old MS-DOS manual
19:22:35 <fizzie> (Okay, that's just a DOS program; but it's got an "OS" in the name.)
19:24:34 <fizzie> I have the strangest urge to boot something non-Linux on the (PV-only) Xen system fungot runs on, which is the silly. I don't think there's anything very exotic that runs paravirtualized under Xen anyway; just Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Solaris
19:24:34 <fungot> fizzie: yes...? :) i don't really understand why those people keep misreading. fnord luin fnord " fnord"
19:25:17 <fizzie> fungot: You wouldn't mind, would you? It wouldn't be that many megabytes off your nose.
19:25:18 <fungot> fizzie: i have *never* seen a certificate on his wall. a couple of threads, although there are seven mandatory and n optional levels in the taxonomy, species are fnord ( well, at least so did a bit more
19:25:30 <boily> you can certify a wall?
19:25:44 <boily> fizzie: althought not an OS, that is quite exotic.
19:25:53 <boily> fungot: fnord luin fnord fnord.
19:25:53 <fungot> boily: but i don't know if it's just a photo of the fnord
19:25:56 <fizzie> boily: I used to use it for TCP/IPing from DOS.
19:26:18 <fizzie> "luin" is the first-person past-tense word for "read" in Finnish.
19:27:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:27:46 <fizzie> Seems I've pasted twenty or so Finnish misreadings on one of the channels the 'irc' style is trained on; those tend to be of the form "luin 'X'".
19:28:36 <fizzie> Oh, I found even the actual quote.
19:28:43 <fizzie> fungot: Shame on you for borrowing so literally.
19:28:43 <fungot> fizzie: i just found a flaw in what i've done at http://www.cs.indiana.edu/bmastenb/")?
19:29:44 <shachaf> fungot: what's the matter with you!!
19:29:44 <fungot> shachaf: what is sicp? :) " migrate my process thence!"
19:29:54 <fizzie> nortti: Is that the Plan 9 Xen thing?
19:30:07 <nortti> fizzie: no, that is a fork of plan 9
19:30:30 <fizzie> Well, yes, but one that has some Xen PV support. I saw a reference to something like that somewhere.
19:30:54 <fizzie> HaLVM sounds like Xen Mirage except Haskell instead of Ocaml.
19:31:16 <boily> is it me, or tolkien's languages borrowed a lot from finnish?
19:31:36 <fizzie> boily: That's an officially acknowledged fact.
19:31:52 <fizzie> fungot: Have you always wanted to run on a Haskell Funge-98 interpreter on HaLVM?
19:31:53 <fungot> fizzie: name is not a reader abbreviation?
19:32:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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19:33:19 <fizzie> (I don't know what the good Haskell Funge-98 interpreters are, though.)
19:34:03 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/sXa7yv4.png well um this is about the worst security I've ever seen in a game
19:34:22 <Fiora> (FF14 apparently lets you... post arbitrary JSON to modify your own character's data... without verification...)
19:35:40 <boily> fizzie: oh, indeed.
19:35:50 <boily> (meanwhile, installing plan 9)
19:38:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, are there any?
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19:39:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly there are not. I know Fungi doesn't include SOCK.
19:40:49 <olsner> does xen require a paravirtualized os?
19:41:16 <fizzie> No, if you have hardware virtualization extensions in your processor.
19:41:24 <fizzie> But the box in question doesn't.
19:42:01 <olsner> can kvm run xen-paravirtualized stuff?
19:42:48 <fizzie> It's built on the same paravirt_ops infrastructure, at least.
19:44:21 <fizzie> And HVM Xen guests can do paravirt_ops drivers for efficiency (calld PV-on-HVM, I think) instead of having emulated hardware devices (provided by qemu).
19:44:56 <olsner> is that the same as virtio or something different?
19:46:35 <fizzie> I guess technically they might be different, but I was referring to both with paravirt_ops.
19:46:42 <fizzie> I don't know the codistical details.
19:47:55 <fizzie> It vaguely seems that the virtio drivers might be different from the Xen PV drivers.
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19:54:57 <fizzie> As far as I can figure out, the paravirt_ops general paravirtualization blobs are common to both Xen and KVM, but there might be some duplication with virtio drivers specific to KVM, and different ones for Xen.
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19:55:55 <fizzie> fungot's network interface and block device are from xen_netfront and xen_blkfront, respectively, so that's that.
19:55:55 <fungot> fizzie: from two different employers had an affectionate way to refer to
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20:01:45 <fizzie> I wonder if there's isn't a Mirage/HaLVM kind of thing already for Rust, it sounds like the kind of thing someone'd do.
20:03:55 <fizzie> Other Xen news: Xen 4.3 removed support for the 32-bit x86 hypervisor. It's almost like "last time" (I started the late server-laptop using Xen but then they dropped 32-bit non-PAE support), except I had a borderline 64-bit (Atom 230) system this time.
20:04:17 <fizzie> I'm sure they're going to drop support for processors with no hardware virtualization sooner or later, though.
20:04:34 <fizzie> (As in, the "old-fashioned" PV side.)
20:05:14 <olsner> seemed that vmware had already dropped their PV interface, because cpus are good enough at virtualization themselves now
20:05:59 <olsner> yeah, wikipedia said that VMI support will be dropped around 2010-2011
20:07:18 <fizzie> There's no hardware virtualization on the Atom. (Except a couple exceptions.)
20:07:30 <fizzie> Quite a few of them didn't even support Intel 64.
20:07:47 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "quite a few", but the old N270 ones and such.
20:08:32 <fizzie> I guess the 2013 high-ender Atoms do VT-x and all that.
20:09:38 <kmc> There's no hardware virtualization on the Atom <--- Virtual 8086 mode!~!!!!!
20:09:53 <kmc> the earliest x86 hardware virtualization
20:09:56 <kmc> also best ofc
20:10:16 <fizzie> There was some sort of paravirtualized-Xen-on-ARM project that I think also sort of died, now that ARM's introduced virtualization extensions in ARMv7 and (I guess?) made it standard in ARMv8; Xen 4.3 has a "tech preview" supporting those.
20:10:31 <kmc> vmware did paravirt?
20:10:41 <kmc> i thought they only did hardware virt or dynamic translation
20:11:13 <kmc> also dynamic translation can perform better than bare metal thanks to JIT optimizations
20:11:26 <fizzie> They did paravirt: http://pubs.vmware.com/vsphere-4-esx-vcenter/index.jsp?topic=/com.vmware.vsphere.vmadmin.doc_41/vsp_vm_guide/configuring_virtual_machines/t_enable_and_disable_vmi_paravirtualization.html
20:12:00 <fizzie> kmc: So how about that Rust-on-Xen, then?
20:12:01 <kmc> like oh, we recorded a JIT trace from your program through the kernel syscall path, now we don't actually need to switch CPU modes or perform privilege checks on that hot path
20:12:08 <kmc> fizzie: that'd be cool
20:12:11 <kmc> like HalVM you mean?
20:12:23 <fizzie> Like that, and like the Ocaml-based Xen Mirage.
20:12:43 <kmc> looks like people have been talking about it: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-March/003335.html
20:15:27 <fizzie> It's kind of like Xen hypervisor is the OS, and all these things are the applications. Soon they'll start talking about sharing common code between the "guests" and then it turns into some regular microkernel OS instead of a virtualization system.
20:16:17 <kmc> and there's already precedent for running a traditional kernel on top of a microkernel
20:16:50 * kmc actually ran MkLinux back in the day.
20:17:16 <fizzie> I ran MkLinux too, and it wasn't even too "back in the day", it was like 2003-ish.
20:17:22 <kmc> well okay, same here
20:17:31 <kmc> that was a decade ago!
20:17:58 <kmc> somebody pointed out to me the other day that I was in the first 0.1% of Facebook users and now I feel bad about helping inflict Facebook on the world
20:18:26 <fizzie> I had a... what was it, Performa 5260.
20:19:02 <fizzie> (Fun fact: went to http://www.lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml to verify the model number, because all I remembered was "it was mentioned on that list of worst Mac design choices".)
20:26:23 <fizzie> I haven't been an early adopter of anything else except "IRC-Galleria", a Finnish iamge gallery that started as a collection of photos of IRC users (in 2001-2002) but then morphed into a generic (if image-gallery-oriented) social network with its own groups and users, so that people these days talk about "IRC" when they mean that site. (Annoying "real" IRC users to no end.)
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20:27:52 <fizzie> They claim to have 50% of all Finnish 15-24-year-olds visiting per month.
20:28:44 * shachaf keeps forgetting not to pronounce fizzie's nick as if it was English.
20:29:33 <nooodl> what IS the correct pronunciation
20:29:59 <nooodl> is it /fizzie/ (finnish joke)
20:31:09 <fizzie> /fitsie/ (not really).
20:31:19 <fizzie> Though that might be pretty close to how a Finn would do it.
20:31:38 <fizzie> (We don't have a native 'z'.)
20:33:57 <shachaf> nooodl: is "nooodl" pronounced as if dutch
20:36:10 <shachaf> that would be "the good pronunciation"
20:36:55 <nooodl> if it's any consolation i mentally pronounce "shachaf" with that thick "chhh" sound
20:37:12 <olsner> is it pronounced n'dl with a glottal stop?
20:38:39 <nooodl> (or ח?? help wikipedia is confusing me)
20:39:43 <shachaf> and which thick chhh sound do you want
20:41:02 <nooodl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_fricative
20:41:25 <shachaf> some people use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative ...............
20:41:40 <boily> /fɪzi/, /ʃähäf/, /nuːdl̩/, /ɔlsnœʀ/
20:41:42 <mnoqy> some people use lots of things
20:42:32 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-fizzie.wav <- from the rather crummy diphone synthesis Finnish voice for Festival, but the main gist of it is correct.
20:43:57 <nooodl> expected boily to say /fizi/. is /ɪ/ even in french
20:44:20 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-fizzie2.wav <- the other Finnish Festival voice, you can take an average of these two.
20:44:28 <boily> nooodl: only as a lax allophone of [i].
20:45:48 <fizzie> Also a Finnish person says "shachaf" like this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-shachaf.wav
20:46:53 <fizzie> And these are the two ways a Finnish person might refer to kmc: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-kmc.wav
20:47:55 <fizzie> (The prosody is a bit hit-and-miss.)
20:48:03 <nooodl> the finnish way to spell the alphabet sounds pretty cute too
20:48:36 <boily> /bwali/, /kaɛmse/, /vɔʀpal/, /ɛljɔt/, /fʌngɔt/, /lɛksãd/, /metasepja/, /ɛlɛmte/, /mnɔki/, /dʒafɛt/, /tanɛb/
20:51:38 <fizzie> nooodl: The whole alphabet: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-alphabet.wav
20:51:48 <boily> FireFly: /aksãgravsiʀkɔ̃flɛkssuliɲesiʀkɔ̃flɛksve/
20:54:13 <fizzie> (The "kaksoisvee" for 'w' is sort of formal, more commonly it's just "tuplavee".)
20:55:14 <ion> “more commonly” probably depends on your location.
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20:55:31 <shachaf> fizzie: if only i had headphones :'(
20:55:34 <boily> FireFly: also, /fajɚflaj/.
20:58:33 <Bike> http://wtfviz.net/image/63750418075
20:59:24 <fizzie> Bike: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3dgzx4zSbjM/UUAb4KDOmpI/AAAAAAAAAJM/dn0hWHqIc0Y/s320/Kauko+Nieminen+2003.JPG
20:59:38 <boily> Bike: the wtf is very wtfing.
21:03:38 <ion> The Finnish alphabet. http://heh.fi/tmp/alphabet.ogg
21:04:23 <fizzie> Yes, well, there is a reason I added some periods and spaces before generating alphabet.wav.
21:05:54 <fizzie> I think that's the same Suopuhe voice.
21:06:39 <nooodl> i love how it's looped four times
21:07:02 <boily> “soi soi soi soi soi soi soi soi”
21:08:48 <fizzie> Bitlips, one of the Finnish commercial players in the field, has a web demo of their thing at http://www.bitlips.fi/tts/demo.cgi
21:10:14 <fizzie> For non-Finnish people: first row of radio buttons selects the voice (last one does unit selection and is therefore most natural), second row the special sound effect, and third row the speed, left to right from slow to fast.
21:11:01 <fizzie> (The effects don't work for the last voice, it seems.)
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21:14:10 <fizzie> (Google Translate's Finnish voice might be the best easily-accessible Finnish synthesis voice.)
21:16:08 <fizzie> It even makes a difference between "fizzie" and "fitsie", and pronounces the former like my nick "should" go, and the latter more like "fit-sie", as far as timing and stress go.
21:17:27 <fizzie> It also makes a pretty impressive "Finglish" if you set the input language to Finnish and paste in some English text. I laughed.
21:19:43 <nooodl> dear finland: what is torilla tavataan
21:20:20 <ion> Updated. It now contains a comparison between synthesized and spoken versions of the Finnish alphabet. http://heh.fi/tmp/alphabet.ogg
21:20:22 <fizzie> "(let's) meet at the (market) square".
21:20:53 <fizzie> Or it could be something to say as a... what's the opposite of a greeting?
21:21:41 <fizzie> Kind of like "be seeing you".
21:22:30 <fizzie> (It also has a sarcastic sense.)
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21:23:18 <fizzie> ion: Did you spell the alphabet like that in primary school?
21:24:48 <ion> Not before getting an Amiga with “Say”.
21:25:45 <fizzie> I had the aforementioned Performa 5260 reading #esoteric out loud (Ircle + OS 7.5.3 builtin speech synthesis) a couple of times.
21:26:08 <fizzie> (It wasn't a terribly good idea.)
21:30:01 <kmc> my house in college had an old Mac (one of the first ever models) in the lounge running a text editor, into which people would type poetry / obscenity / ramblings
21:30:18 <kmc> and occasionally we would transfer the floppy disk to a slightly less old Mac and make a text to speech recording and play it at events
21:31:18 <kmc> in middle school I used remote applescript to make other people's computer lab Macs talk to them
21:32:51 <fizzie> I liked that voice where the sample sentence in the control panel was "the light you see at the end of the tunnel is the headlights of a fast approaching train", or something approximately like that.
21:33:08 <kmc> is that one of the singing ones?
21:33:17 <fizzie> Yes, it was a sing-songy one.
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22:12:51 <zzo38> How to access the printer in a SDL based program?
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22:13:53 <ion> I’m not sure SDL affects printing.
22:15:34 <zzo38> I also don't see any SDL functions for printing, although is there some cross-platform library usable with SDL programs that can emulate a line printer or something like that?
22:18:26 <zzo38> I have finally earned over 300% advantage of points in basketball; before I was between 200% and 300%.
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22:40:05 <Koen_> say I have a language in which it is possible to implement programs that would output every possible integer sequence
22:40:35 <Taneb> Is that one program per sequence?
22:41:05 <Koen_> say there is an output function which takes an arbitrarily large integer as argument, and outputs it
22:41:36 <Taneb> I don't think this is possible
22:41:39 <Koen_> assume for every sequence (a_n) there exists a program where this output function is called first on a_0, then a_1, etc
22:41:43 <Taneb> Without infinitely long programs
22:41:59 <Taneb> Because there are only a countably infinite number of possible programs
22:42:01 <Koen_> well, the set of all integer sequences is uncountable
22:42:12 <Taneb> But an uncountably infinite number of possible sequences of integers
22:42:16 <Koen_> but the set of programs in a given language is countable
22:42:31 <Koen_> so there's a problem
22:42:43 <Taneb> So you need infinitely long programs
22:42:59 <Koen_> which means that there are no turing-complete languages at all
22:43:02 <Koen_> we've been lied to
22:43:15 <Taneb> The set of computable integer sequences is countable
22:43:42 <Koen_> what's a computable integer sequence?
22:44:07 <Taneb> One that you can write a program to output it, pretty much
22:44:07 <fizzie> If there is a program to output it. :p
22:44:15 <kmc> the set of computable anything is countable
22:44:19 <kmc> because the set of programs is countable
22:44:29 <Koen_> that's pretty much my point
22:44:55 <fizzie> Koen_: Your point seems to be missing the link between itself and the alleged impossibility of Turing-completeness.
22:45:23 <Koen_> fizzie: well, "turing-complete" means you can write any program
22:45:28 <Koen_> and I just proved that's not possible
22:45:40 <Koen_> there are simply not enough different programs
22:45:46 <fizzie> Koen_: You can write any program, so you can output any computable integer sequence, sure.
22:45:55 <fizzie> Koen_: There's no requirement that all integer sequences have programs.
22:45:57 <Koen_> I think I'm gonna drop out of computer school and become a musician instead, now that I know the truth
22:46:13 <Koen_> yeah but what's the definition of computable?
22:46:45 <Koen_> "computable means it can be done by a program" "this language is turing-complete because you can write a program for every computable task"
22:47:16 <Koen_> outputting a simple integer sequence sounds like something you should be able to do
22:47:29 <Koen_> anyhows, I'm going to bed now
22:47:31 <fizzie> Well, "sounds like something" isn't much of an argument.
22:48:03 <Koen_> I hear the Church-Turing thesis isn't either
22:48:33 <fizzie> I don't think Church-Turing really affects the definition of Turing-complete, though.
22:48:55 <fizzie> It's Turing-complete if you can do everything a Turing machine can do, and the name doesn't really sound like it'd promise anything more.
22:48:59 <kmc> Turing machines are a perfectly well defined mathematical construct regardless of the C-T thesis
22:49:39 <Koen_> well it basically says "Being Turing-complete is equivalent to 'be able to do anything'" without really stating what "anything" is
22:49:50 <Koen_> like it's intuitive
22:49:52 <kmc> that's what the C-T thesis says yes
22:49:56 <kmc> it's not a formal statement
22:49:58 <kmc> it can't be
22:49:58 <Koen_> well, integer sequences are intuitive
22:50:05 <kmc> you cannot proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means!
22:50:10 <Koen_> yes, I know, the flying fire-breathing monkeys
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22:52:19 <kmc> @tell Koen_ the C-T thesis is about machines which can actually be built; it's easy enough to make mathematical models stronger than a Turing Machine
22:53:34 <kmc> well feel free to substitute "method which can be carried out" for "machine which can be built"
22:54:04 <kmc> i don't know what you mean tho
22:54:32 <Phantom_Hoover> well obviously you can't actually build a TM because infinite memory
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23:10:59 <Taneb> Are there any uninteresting complex numbers
23:11:30 <kmc> i was going to say 0 but maybe it's actually one of the most interesting numbers ever!!
23:12:07 <fizzie> Is any uninteresting real number also an uninteresting complex number, or is it more complex than that?
23:12:34 <Taneb> The proof that there are no uninteresting naturals doesn't extend to it at all, I think
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23:13:23 <fizzie> You can order the Gaussian integers.
23:15:57 <fizzie> I'm sure you can find some property that lets you pick one of the assumed uninteresting complex numbers.
23:16:51 <kmc> quick, anyone know if [ foo -et bar ] is in POSIX test?
23:16:58 <kmc> er, -ef rather
23:17:35 <shachaf> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/test.html
23:17:43 <shachaf> Some additional primaries newly invented or from the KornShell appeared in an early proposal as part of the conditional command ( [[]]): s1 > s2, s1 < s2, str = pattern, str != pattern, f1 -nt f2, f1 -ot f2, and f1 -ef f2. They were not carried forward into the test utility when the conditional command was removed from the shell because they have not been included in the test utility built into historical implementations of the sh utility.
23:18:20 <shachaf> are you doing autotools things again or something
23:18:28 <kmc> no just hacking the servo configure script a bit
23:18:42 <kmc> (which is hand-written, not autoconf)
23:19:25 <olsner> can't you just put bash after #! and ignore posix?
23:19:38 <kmc> seems rude
23:20:21 <olsner> are you supporting anything that actually doesn't have bash at all?
23:21:09 <fizzie> You could just compare stat -c '%d.%i' of both files except that stat(1)'s not POSIX either.
23:22:00 <kmc> yeah that was my first idea before I thought to check if test had this ability built in
23:22:03 <kmc> olsner: no
23:24:11 <kmc> i want ./configure to check if $0 and ./configure are the same file
23:24:40 <kmc> clearly I should do: fgrep -q pO1TnNAzAlfRkUq4T/sSzf5hSjP3XxK7kA+ItpXA5Kx+Gm47yVFr5+Q/bQK6wJfTSLARo6HgVIsF ./configure
23:25:13 <shachaf> is that base64 /dev/urandom
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00:07:00 <pikhq> kmc: If you wanna be POSIXly correct, you *could* just use c99 on a generated C file. :P
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01:10:10 <zzo38> I want to know how to cross-platform printing with SDL so that I can add support for printing to the Aimfiz Z-machine interpreter.
01:10:36 <Sgeo> I really should try to make #lang qoppa
01:14:33 <kmc> i don't think SDL will help you with printing zzo38
01:17:08 <zzo38> Currently it can only transcript to a file (using raw ZSCII characters; line breaks are always CR and it doesn't wrap and so on), but I want to add printer support for transcript too. I know SDL has no printout support, but I wanted to know if there is another library that can be used with SDL, tat will do it.
01:17:47 <Bike> do you mean printing like, with a machine, putting things on physical paper
01:18:12 <zzo38> Yes I mean in the paper
01:18:37 <Bike> why would sdl do that
01:20:06 <zzo38> There are other libraries for use with SDL, such as one for networking, fonts, GUI, etc but is there a library for cross-platform printing that can be used with SDL too? I only need to emulate a line printer; nothing fancy.
01:21:03 <zzo38> (If you have a text-only line printer (or a PCL printer, which also accepts raw text) then you can use that, but the library would still need to deal with it properly.)
01:49:58 <zzo38> I made up a Pokemon mahjong game.
01:50:21 <zzo38> It has two kind of sequences.
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02:28:52 <zzo38> I think with the Intel 8253 PIT with one channel connected to the gate of another you can make a few different kind of wave forms rather than only a square wave. Do you know if this was ever done? If you set the modulator to mode 3 and the carrier to mode 1, could you make a square wave with varying duty cycles?
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03:17:59 <kmc> you'd better try it and find out!!
03:21:31 <zzo38> I don't have any way to test it, unfortunately.
03:22:58 <zzo38> The other thing I thought of is if it can be used in Famicom cartridge somehow.
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03:39:39 <zzo38> I have made up a list of "Robe of Strange Items" for Dungeons&Dragons game; you can pick an item at random from the robe (only one at a time, though). Some of them include: [0] A sword that causes extra damage to humans, elves (including drow), and dwarves. [1] A wand of magic missiles that does damage equal to the target's HD instead of normal damage of that spell.
03:40:31 <JWinslow23> I want ideas for Memescript. I want memes that I can use for it.
03:40:33 <zzo38> [2] A deck of cards with the six of clubs missing. [3] A tuning fork (tuned to 440 Hz). [4] A coin, silver one side, gold one side. [5] A padlock and the matching key. [6] The holy symbol of whoever took it from the pocket. [7] Two pieces of chalk.
03:41:01 <zzo38> [8] Two solid balls, one iron and one wood. The holder of one can command them to switch places or cause both to vanish simultaneously, regardless of the distance between them.
03:41:21 <Bike> memes are dumb. have you noticed that susan blackthorn is a wizard
03:41:27 <JWinslow23> Like "I'll make my own VARIABLE with VALUE and hookers!" as variable declaration.
03:41:55 <JWinslow23> In reference to Bender's quote in Futurama.
03:42:00 <zzo38> Bike: No, I don't know who that is.
03:42:12 <Bike> JWinslow23: this sounds dumb
03:42:25 <zzo38> This kind of magical balls can be a useful kind of magic items I think.
03:42:50 <JWinslow23> If then: "Not sure if CONDITIONAL or just the opposite."
03:43:16 <Bike> like i mean you're regurgitating oneliners and making it "a programming language" for some reason.
03:43:31 <JWinslow23> Or "I don't always know CONDITIONAL, but when I do..."
03:44:08 <Bike> regurgitating oneliners and selling out to drug selling corps.
03:44:32 <JWinslow23> Hey, LOLCODE turned out to be popular, OK?
03:45:00 <Bike> i'm not blaming you for anything, just saying there are probably better efforts to make.
03:45:20 <JWinslow23> Conspiracy Keanu for conditionals, then?
03:47:26 <JWinslow23> I'll make my own esolang with blackjack and hookers!
03:48:32 <Bike> it's interesting to consider why such jokes are funny and why they are not. repeating a oneliner is saying, "Hey, remember when you laughed at this thing? I did too! We laughed together and that was good."
03:48:41 <Bike> But if the oneliner is too common you lose that friendship element
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04:12:45 <Sgeo> `slist recently
04:12:50 <HackEgo> slist recently: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
04:12:52 <Sgeo> Maybe hours ago
04:48:02 <myndzi> x doesn't always equal 3, but when it does...
05:06:37 <myndzi> the payload of the conditional
05:09:52 <zzo38> Will it be the conditional that isn't optimized out if the compiler finds x is always going to be 3 and gives a warning in that case?
05:10:13 <myndzi> warning: not sure if always 3
05:14:37 <kmc> imo make a programming language out of zzo38's list of items instead
05:17:33 <kmc> zzo38: I particularly like [4] and [8]
05:30:16 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I particularly like [8]
05:31:43 <zzo38> Sure you could try to make up a programming language based on my Dungeons&Dragons games, although it doesn't seem like something you could actually make a good esolang out of (although I may be wrong; I haven't tried so I don't know; however, it is my belief that you can't).
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06:01:44 <zzo38> How does hardware COME FROM work?
06:10:53 <zzo38> Do you have an implementation of the "TMG" compiler-writing system?
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06:51:36 <Sgeo> Gah. Trying to paste into a special Racket pastebin, but it's not working
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06:52:35 <oerjan> @tell fizzie <fizzie> (I don't know what the good Haskell Funge-98 interpreters are, though.) <-- i thought elliott made one, i recall discussing making multi-cursor zippers of quadtrees.
06:53:16 <oerjan> don't know if it was "good" in other ways, though, the design may not have been ideal for speed :)
06:54:17 <oerjan> also i am slightly doubtful he ever got through the mess of implementing that zipper stuff.
06:55:22 <oerjan> in the process he solved x:Seq :: thrist:[]
06:57:11 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/thrist
07:03:01 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/8396655
07:05:09 <oerjan> is that turning racket postfix
07:07:09 <Sgeo> Only function applications (and the order of the argument themselves stay the same, just the function itself goes at the end instead of beginning. And only in the let-syntax form
07:08:04 <oerjan> i am guessing it doesn't work if the first argument looks like a macro name
07:08:55 <oerjan> or syntax keyword, which iiuc is essentially indistinguishable
07:09:18 <Sgeo> Pretty sure you're right, it would try to expand the macro instead
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07:56:44 <zzo38> What happens if something has the DNA that goes the other way?
07:59:00 <oerjan> well the one with the goatee is the evil mirror twin.
08:00:00 <shachaf> wouldn't the goatee be reflected in the mirror
08:03:58 <oerjan> it's the DNA which is mirrored, silly
08:04:25 <zzo38> Well, if you mirror everything then it will include the DNA too.
08:04:37 <zzo38> (It still doesn't answer my question.)
08:06:31 <oerjan> well if you mirror the DNA but not the ribosomes and stuff that interprets it, then it presumably will not work at all. if you mirror everything, then most of it will probably work the same, just mirrored. (i don't think the fundamental parity violations in physics affect chemistry significantly.)
08:08:06 <oerjan> since they're mostly about the rare weak force.
08:09:22 <zzo38> oerjan: That much I can understand, but what if something with mirror DNA eat blood of something with normal DNA or whatever?
08:12:53 <oerjan> i think that depends if digestion manages to break it down enough that the results are no longer assymetric.
08:13:39 <oerjan> if it doesn't, then some of it won't be usable.
08:14:02 <zzo38> (It can include other body parts too; blood is just one example. I am trying to generalize a bit in what I am trying to mean.)
08:18:54 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_(chemistry)#In_biology doesn't say much about digestion, although it mentions that opposite chirality amino acids tend to taste sweet.
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08:22:15 <zzo38> Ah, OK. Someone else mentioned allergies in some other story but I don't know how accurate this is or if there is a way to avoid this. (I am making a story for a text-adventure game, and wish to make the science as accurate as I could reasonably do so; some things aren't done yet but there are things like warp drive along pre-determined paths theories, so I can use those kind of things too)
08:22:29 <zzo38> (This way, the player who knows some science can use it to figure out the game)
08:28:48 <oerjan> i see the talk page mentions ibuprofen as a drug whose enantiomer is inactive.
08:29:57 <zzo38> I don't know what "enantiomer" means (I may look it up later), but OK.
08:30:41 <oerjan> it's the technical term for chemical mirror twin
08:49:44 <fizzie> oerjan: If you're talking about Shiro, I'm not sure it ever really materialized. I was waiting for him to bring it up.
08:50:04 <fizzie> (At least I think its name was Shiro.)
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09:16:57 <zzo38> You can use this picture to show you how to calculate when is Chinese new year: http://zzo38computer.org/img_14/chinese-new-year.png
09:17:40 <zzo38> (All of the relevant things are labeled, except for the numbers along the left and right side of the screen, which indicate the days of the month.)
09:18:38 <zzo38> Is this understandable to you, or is there something wrong with it?
09:21:22 <zzo38> (If there is something wrong, then please notify me so that I can fix it.)
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11:08:54 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm at a LAN party playing Dwarf Fortress
11:09:36 <Taneb> Because it needs to be played
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12:16:53 <Taneb> Help someone in a completely unrelated channel said "hth" and now I'm confused
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12:28:46 <olsner> Taneb: what myname said, hth
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13:01:30 <JWinslow23> Not operator: "You know what really grinds my gears? EXPRESSION"
13:01:59 <JWinslow23> Program termination: "Shut up and take my money!"
13:04:47 <JWinslow23> Hey, guys? Cam you please help me here? Working on Memescript syntax!
13:08:05 <JWinslow23> Y u no agree with me? Do you know what you're dealing with?
13:08:34 <myname> JWinslow23: there is already lolcode
13:08:57 <oklofok> lolcode ain't no memescript
13:09:56 <JWinslow23> Sorry. I got the idea while watching Futurama
13:10:31 <mnoqy> there's at least 2 languages with stuff like that and it's a billion too many
13:11:40 <mnoqy> what the heck would a poll do
13:13:21 <mnoqy> is that one of those "meme" things too
13:13:48 <JWinslow23> Can't blame a guy for cracking a joke!
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16:45:43 <elliott> he's just an amateurpumpkin
16:45:49 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, anything you want me to order the traders to bring?
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16:48:07 * oerjan sics a Conjoined instance on elliott
16:48:23 <Taneb> pretty sure there is sand
16:48:39 <Taneb> Might get order some cloth in case of strange moods?
16:49:05 <elliott> oerjan: the world was better when no more than about three people knew of Conjoined's existence and two of them hated it.
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16:49:50 <olsner> Conjoined, is that a lens thing?
16:50:07 <Taneb> olsner, it's a not-quite-internal lens thing
16:50:23 <oerjan> technically i think i may have heard about it before. although whether from one of you or from just browsing haddock, i don't recall.
16:53:29 <oerjan> "Bizarre (Indexed Int) Mafic"
16:53:46 <oerjan> i suppose that's internal, at least.
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17:02:53 <nooodl> http://ded.increpare.com/~locus/untris/
17:06:30 <olsner> dick to start? nice keming
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17:12:52 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, there may not be any magma
17:13:59 <Taneb> btw it's almost your turn
17:14:29 <oerjan> nooodl: ok i simply don't understand the rules for when it refuses to let me remove a part that _should_ be undoable...
17:15:27 <nooodl> there have to be blocks below it
17:15:35 <nooodl> and there has to be a path to (from) the top
17:15:54 <oerjan> well the latter i understand
17:16:37 <fizzie> Wait, I had something else playing in the background.
17:16:49 <fizzie> Oh, it was the Botanicula soundtrack.
17:16:56 <nooodl> (you can control the volume with - and +)
17:17:01 <oerjan> oh now i get it, of course after you add a line the next piece you remove has to be part of it
17:21:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, good news, semi-molten rock
17:21:25 <Taneb> (-150 below surface)
17:21:56 <Taneb> I'll leave the rest to you
17:22:07 <Taneb> (it's late winter, too late to start now)
17:22:08 <Bike> yeah, i don't get the rules either
17:22:53 <Taneb> Also I hope you like alpacae
17:23:32 <nooodl> it really all comes down to "it has to be a tetris game when you play it backwards"
17:24:36 <olsner> a nice confusing detail that next piece really is the next piece
17:24:37 <nooodl> could maybe take a screenshot of the thing you don't get?
17:24:41 <Bike> so i can't hit a piece that's floating in space because there's nothing to rest on?
17:24:53 <Bike> oh, ok, i guess that makes sense
17:25:56 <Bike> and you can't add a row above a certain height...?
17:28:01 <nooodl> it's just, you can't add a row above an empty row
17:28:14 <nooodl> because there is no way to place a block into it and clear it
17:28:40 <Bike> so how can i possibly get rid of these floating pieces...
17:29:35 <Bike> i really don't get it.
17:30:38 <fizzie> If you get stuck, you can always z back and try some other route.
17:31:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, my year's over
17:31:58 <fizzie> (Or is that "z forward"?)
17:32:21 <Taneb> How do you want me to send you the map?
17:32:27 <nooodl> Bike: http://lpaste.net/6894508127488573440
17:33:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm going out in a quarter of an hour, i doubt i'll be back until tomorrow
17:33:37 <Bike> nooodl: i had a whole blank row between, though.
17:36:17 <Bike> let's see... you can't select a piece from right over a new row, too, right
17:37:49 <Bike> the lesson i'm learning here is that i'm astonishingly bad at tetris no matter which way entropy goes.
17:38:21 <nooodl> hmm, good point. blank rows screw everything up
17:38:35 <myname> Bike: maybe you should play a bit with bastet
17:40:25 <nooodl> tetris where the ai gives you the hardest block to work with each time
17:40:32 <fizzie> Also called: any RNG in any Tetris ever.
17:40:48 <fizzie> (Or at least that's what it sometimes feels like!)
17:41:10 <Bike> oh, i've played HATETRIS a few times
17:41:54 <elliott> nooodl: yeah, play hatetris
17:42:51 <oerjan> Bike: when you have a new row, the next piece must be part of it.
17:44:25 <oerjan> Bike: also i think the point is the entropy is increasing no matter which direction you play it.
17:44:49 <oerjan> you start out relatively ordered, after all.
17:48:24 <Bike> whoops made another blank row
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17:59:44 <Bike> this game is driving me mad.
18:02:10 <oerjan> see, you should have given up like i did.
18:02:50 <oerjan> it works for everything except life itself.
18:04:37 <oerjan> because it hasn't worked for me yet.
18:05:29 <myname> if so, you couldn't report
18:08:11 <oerjan> i said giving up life, not internet, sheesh
18:21:08 <oklofok> i read the name of the link and i was like hmmmm, a tetris where you _remove_ tiles, like playing it in reverse, might be interesting
18:21:23 <oklofok> now, 3 hours later, i noticed the link again and checked out what it was
18:21:57 <oklofok> (and yes, i know the link was not linked 3 hours ago.)
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18:29:32 <oklofok> the "next piece" slot is really useful
18:31:58 <olsner> undo is misnamed though
18:33:29 <oklofok> i run out of brain trying to understand whether it is
18:34:28 <oerjan> should have been "redo"
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19:18:20 <ais523> is that tetris with monominos?
19:19:06 <FireFly> <nooodl> http://ded.increpare.com/~locus/untris/
19:19:14 <ais523> you start with a grid of random blocks, and have to remove tetrominoes from it at the top of the board?
19:19:25 <ais523> and whenever you make a mistake it inserts extra lines to be able to remove the tetromino from them?
19:19:39 <FireFly> Something along those lines
19:19:44 <ais523> also, that page is useless, it's written entirely with Flash
19:19:44 <olsner> you get to insert lines yourself
19:19:52 <FireFly> Yes, unfortunately it's a flash game
19:20:13 <lexande> seems to not work in gnash
19:20:47 <FireFly> I wonder if all random start positions are solvable
19:22:53 <lexande> FireFly: all operations preserve parity of number of blocks on the board right?
19:23:23 <lexande> so a random start position with an odd number of blocks will be unsolvable
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19:28:48 <fizzie> It sounds somewhat likely that it generates the start position by playing a game forward, though.
19:29:52 <olsner> I guess it plays to 1000 points, since that's what you start with
19:30:39 <olsner> not sure if the solution is unique though? is it guaranteed that you reach 0 exactly when you finish (start?) the game?
19:31:10 <fizzie> I remember that Microsoft FreeCell came with one (out of 32000) unsolvable starting position.
19:31:20 <ais523> also -1 and -2 are unsolvable
19:31:26 <ais523> but those two were handcrafted
19:32:57 <Bike> this stupid game.
19:36:21 <fizzie> Bike: You don't *need* to play it, other people stopped already.
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19:47:52 <myname> JWinslow23: jo have to revert a given game
19:48:22 <JWinslow23> I know, but I am never able to remove a line piece if I create a new line.
19:50:12 <myname> you can only do that if your planed unmove would remove the line in a real game
19:54:56 <oerjan> JWinslow23: the piece you remove must have blocks under it.
19:55:27 <oerjan> because otherwise when you play forwards, it would simply fall further.
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19:57:49 <oerjan> well it was hard to avoid junk building up
19:58:38 <oerjan> once it gets open space under it
20:11:22 <JWinslow23> Go to google and search "7.35 times 14". Then look at the first result, other than the obvious calculation. Then, laugh!
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20:15:15 <elliott> are we talking about "I am 14 and my dick is 7.5 inches i masturbate a least 2 times a ..."
20:15:18 <elliott> because that's what I get.
20:15:46 <Bike> ok i hate this game
20:16:35 <zzo38> O, it makes improper spelling corrections, like Google will often do, "7.5" instead of "7.35"
20:18:07 <ais523> zzo38: I discovered that you can prevent Google making such corrections by adding extraneous hyphens
20:18:15 <ais523> it fixes the hyphens, and doesn't re-fix it to something else
20:19:51 <oerjan> JWinslow23: it's a thing because someone noticed it and linked it all over the internet.
20:21:24 <JWinslow23> It can figure out "that movie about drinking wine", too!
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20:29:04 <FireFly> ais523, zzo38: adding quotation marks around a term tends to prevent corrections from Google, too
20:29:16 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes I know that too; I have done that too
20:29:23 <ais523> FireFly: but not always, somehow
20:36:42 <nooodl> <fizzie> It sounds somewhat likely that it generates the start position by playing a game forward, though.
20:36:51 <nooodl> ^ someone in the comment section proved that it doesn't
20:37:04 <nooodl> it's very simple: the game can start with an odd number of blocks
20:37:29 <fizzie> Aw, that's kinda nasty.
20:40:05 <Sgeo> Any EVE players here?
20:40:25 <Sgeo> I have kill rights on someone I want to sell
20:40:50 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> I have kill rights on someone I want to sell
20:40:58 <HackEgo> 1117) <Sgeo> I have kill rights on someone I want to sell
20:43:16 <zzo38> What does that mean?
20:43:27 -!- muskrat has joined.
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20:43:59 <Sgeo> Someone killed me in lowsec space, so I have permission to kill them in highsec space (space where NPC police will normally kill you if you kill someone)
20:44:07 <Sgeo> I think it's possible to sell this permission to someone else
20:45:14 <Bike> those are some weird police.
20:48:13 <fizzie> Sounds a bit like one of those "get out of jail free" cards.
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21:14:04 <Sgeo> Not really? It only grants permission to kill that specific person
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21:17:25 <Bike> alright program organization question, i'm whipping up some shit for toying with dynamical systems
21:18:01 <Bike> i want to organize things so that visualizations can be turned on and off, eg, a vector field background, paths from some specific point, that kind of thing, and i'm calling them "layers" because photoshop
21:18:10 <Bike> but i dunno whether to associate each "layer" with a vector field or what.
21:20:38 <Bike> like, if i'm displaying two systems at once, and the user wants to display the two paths from the same point, should that be one "layer" or two?
21:25:20 <Bike> i guess more granularity is probably better
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22:13:47 <Sgeo> Watching a video, this one person sounds like the guy in The Room
22:14:45 <Sgeo> http://vimeo.com/38635607
22:15:25 <Sgeo> THE ENTIRE COMPANY THAT PRODUCED THIS SHOULD RO.. wait, it's labeled under Bitmanagement? Hmm. IVN CAN GO ROT
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22:56:16 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/a/ZO3oD
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23:01:37 <Taneb> I'm not very good at this LAN party thing
23:09:53 <Taneb> Anyone know how to get Ubuntu to use the LAN's DNS?
23:10:36 <ion> taneb: Doesn’t the DHCP server give that information?
23:10:54 <ion> That is, it should work by default.
23:11:11 <ion> sgeo: What’s that?
23:11:12 <Taneb> Doesn't seem to want to :(
23:11:17 <zzo38> Should I really require a PULLUP and PULLDOWN command in HWPL? I think that something like "CONNECT -PULLDOWN() TO x;" should be same like "PULLDOWN x;" but I don'ot know if it should be included for convenience anyways.
23:11:32 <Sgeo> ion: the Violent Wormhole in EVE, a landmark
23:11:33 <ion> taneb: Does it work on other operating systems?
23:11:37 <Sgeo> Came with the Incursion expansion
23:11:55 <Taneb> ion, seems like everyone but me and the guy next to me (who is running Arch) have it working
23:12:01 <Taneb> ion, most people are on Windows
23:12:14 <ion> How much does EVE cost and is it worth it?
23:13:01 <ion> taneb: Edit your current network connection and verify that you have “Method: Automatic (DHCP)” in the IPv4 Settings tab.
23:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> EVE is a subscription thing, whether it's worth it depends on you
23:13:16 <Taneb> ion, it's set to that
23:13:17 <Sgeo> Between $15/month and free, depending on how much in-game money you make (you can legally buy EVE time cards on the in-game market, they're an in-game item)
23:13:42 <ion> taneb: What does your /etc/resolv.conf look like and what should the DNS server address be?
23:14:07 <Taneb> # Dynamic resolv.conf(5) file for glibc resolver(3) generated by resolvconf(8)
23:14:07 <Taneb> # DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE BY HAND -- YOUR CHANGES WILL BE OVERWRITTEN
23:14:07 <Taneb> nameserver 127.0.1.1
23:16:31 <ion> Ah, sorry. I forgot about the dnsmasq stuff. What does nm-tool print for “DNS:”?
23:16:54 <ion> (The 127.0.1.1 is right, that just wasn’t the right place to look at the actual DNS server address nowadays.)
23:19:50 <Taneb> ion, any particular bit of that?
23:19:57 <Taneb> I don't particularly want to post it all in channel
23:20:06 <ion> nm-tool | grep 'DNS:'
23:20:27 <ion> Is that what it’s supposed to be?
23:20:40 <Taneb> How can I do the equivalent on Windows?
23:20:48 <ion> ipconfig /all probably.
23:21:54 <Taneb> Yeah, it's the same as a working Windows computer
23:22:11 <Sgeo> ion: for what it's worth, I'm not sure if it makes sense to pay if your only goal is sightseeing
23:23:06 <ion> taneb: Does dig @10.10.10.1 some-address-that-should-resolve work?
23:23:55 <ion> Does dig 127.0.1.1 that-same-address work?
23:24:05 <ion> dig @127.0.1.1 that-same-address, that is
23:24:42 <ion> Does getent hosts that-same-address work?
23:25:30 <ion> Where does it not work then?
23:26:39 <Taneb> ion, okay, the address that only resolves on this LAN doesn't work on 10.10.10.1
23:27:16 <ion> But the DHCP server gives you 10.10.10.1? How does it work for anyone?
23:27:32 <Taneb> Maybe it's an IPv6 thing?
23:29:01 <Taneb> I think the address should resolve as an IPv6
23:30:00 <ion> What’s the actual address that you can’t resolve and what does it resolve to on the other computers?
23:30:36 <Taneb> fe80::782c::204d::9e30::8d43
23:31:58 <Taneb> Like, people are just putting http://fragsoc into their browser and it's resolving to a web page
23:32:22 <ion> Does fragsoc.fragsoc resolve? How about fragsoc. (with the dot) or fragsoc.fragsoc. (with the dot)?
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23:34:46 <ion> How about fragsoc.local?
23:35:32 <Taneb> But it takes longer to say no
23:37:28 <ion> Can dig resolve the host on the Arch box?
23:38:00 <Taneb> He doesn't have dig
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23:38:27 <Taneb> No, it doesn't work
23:39:25 <ion> taneb: Does getent hosts resolve it?
23:40:43 <ion> …But it resolves in some program on the Arch box?
23:41:10 <Taneb> The arch box has the same problem as me
23:41:47 <zzo38> I think it is sensible to make the INTERCAL's interleave and select operators in hardware programming language, as long as the right operand of select is static.
23:43:06 <zzo38> What do you think of it?
23:44:23 <ion> taneb: Does it work if you install winbind and modify /etc/nsswitch.conf from
23:44:25 <ion> hosts: files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns mdns4
23:44:29 <ion> hosts: files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns wins mdns4
23:46:58 <ion> I suppose you’ll have to research exactly how the host is supposed to be resolved.
23:48:31 <ion> taneb: One more thing: i suppose nmblookup fragsoc doesn’t work either?
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23:49:35 <Taneb> querying fragsoc on 10.10.10.255
23:49:35 <Taneb> 10.10.10.1 fragsoc<00>
23:50:15 <ion> You should ask the person who set up the DNS(-ish) entry for the host fragsoc. Ask whether there is a normal DNS server somewhere or if one is supposed to use some other protocol.
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00:10:52 <Taneb> ion, I'm on now :)
00:11:12 <Taneb> Had to add "10.10.10.1 fragsoc" to /etc/hosts
00:32:20 <zzo38> Now please look at the HWPL again; I have fixed a lot of things and added some things. Is it good now? Is there anything missing or otherwise incorrect in it?
00:34:35 <zzo38> Now the SPLIT block has the format: SPLIT [LTR|RTL] vec [BY num|IN HALF] AS var: statement [ELSE: statement]
00:34:45 <zzo38> Is this good enough?
00:38:20 <zzo38> Also, I have allowed a CASE statement to have a label attached.
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01:05:10 <zzo38> Things needed may be CMOS models, analog wiring, and foreign function interface.
01:05:19 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions for this?
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02:04:04 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceImages/comments/1obt00/homemade_double_slit_experiment_not_the_most/
02:04:36 <quintopia> isn't there a bot here that can do unit conversion
02:09:35 <Taneb> fizzie, I'm overtired enough to work on a Haskell port of mcmap
02:10:05 <ion> Or overviewer?
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02:37:48 <zzo38> Do you like my kind of idea of text adventure game?
02:45:11 <zzo38> Can a SDL window be opened by a extension library or only the main program is SDL based?
02:45:25 <ais523> zzo38: it can be opened by an extension library
02:45:34 <ais523> you have to define something in the C source files, though
02:45:47 <ais523> before including the header
02:45:58 <ais523> that means that SDL won't try to provide its own main
02:47:21 <zzo38> If you do that then if another program loads a .dll or .so file that opens a SDL window, then will it work OK? What need to be done to continue the other program to run when the window is not open (or even if the window is open)? Is simply to SDL_Init() and SDL_Quit() and then the caller can continue, would it works?
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02:49:06 <zzo38> Is anything else of concerned?
02:51:41 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't any more, as of SDL 2
02:51:58 <ais523> elliott: this is for SDL 2
02:52:05 <ais523> but only on Windows, Android, iPhone
02:52:09 <ais523> on other pltforms it doesn't matter
02:53:12 <zzo38> Actually I think I am using an older version of SDL anyways, but hopefully should it work OK either way?
02:53:24 <elliott> SDL < 2 does funky things with main
02:53:47 <elliott> ais523: do you have a source for Android and iPhone? it says it's just about WinMain() in http://wiki.libsdl.org/MigrationGuide
02:53:58 <ais523> elliott: the source of the header files themselves
02:54:21 <pikhq> Weird, I thought it only provided a WinMain on Windows, so you could just use main?
02:54:37 <zzo38> What does SDL's main do?
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02:55:14 <ais523> pikhq: it provides equivalents in Java and Objective-C for Android and for iPhone
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02:56:27 <zzo38> Objective-C is a strict superset of C, so you should be able to use an existing C program and just write the stuff to wrap them in Objective-C objects, isn't it?
02:57:36 <zzo38> Does GCC or LLVM target Dalvik yet?
03:07:26 <zzo38> I wanted to know this about SDL because I wanted to make up a SQL extension library for graphics, so that you can write something like SELECT XYPLOT(`TIME`,`SPACE`) FROM `THINGS` ORDER BY `TIME`; and make it plot the graph of the data.
03:08:00 <zzo38> (The "XYPLOT" here is a aggregate.)
03:08:57 <pikhq> ais523: Ah. So, you can just write "int main()" everywhere and it'll work, but if you do fancier stuff it'll cause issues?
03:09:00 <zzo38> Or perhaps XYPLOT just returns a picture, and then another function SHOW takes a picture and displays it.
03:11:20 <pikhq> Okay, that actually makes sense.
03:11:30 <pikhq> I'm not 100% sure it belong in SDL, but eh.
03:19:56 <Taneb> Fiora, http://31.media.tumblr.com/f8e08e23c7819fc749d1d45ae719d38b/tumblr_mtjnvzKW9E1sq11yeo1_500.jpg
03:20:30 <HackEgo> 827) <monqy> what does it mean for a pencil to be turing complete.... <ais523> monqy: it's the same concept as USB sushi, really \ 828) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
03:20:46 <elliott> wow, two USB sushi quotes.
03:21:12 <Fiora> they were at the same time, I think?
03:49:04 <zzo38> Is there other way I could support graphics with SQL?
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04:11:25 <Bike> that sushi does look pretty good.
04:12:54 <zzo38> I noticed in this computer I have a file with list of Pokemon battle rules that I and my brother made up, including time controls, financial controls, tie breakers, and various other things.
04:13:29 <Bike> was there a subprime mortgage crisis in hoenn
04:13:39 <zzo38> For example, one option is this: SURRENDER COMMAND = BATTLE | MATCH
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04:16:15 <zzo38> There is even such thing as doubling cube
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04:20:25 <zzo38> INVALID TARGET CORRECTION = AUTO SAME SIDE | AUTO ANY SIDE | MISS | PROMPT | USER FAINTS | LOSE BATTLE | DISQUALIFY I believe "AUTO SAME SIDE" is used in the official games, although I prefer "MISS" instead.
04:21:01 <zzo38> What is your preference for such things?
04:24:27 <ais523> zzo38: I believe the official game actually uses auto same side if possible, otherwise random opponent
04:24:58 <ais523> and the same side behaviour is important, it means that you can hedge against unknown EVs on the opponent via double-targeting and knowing that the second attack will shift if necessary
04:25:05 <ais523> so I'm happy with the official rules
04:25:30 <zzo38> Some people might not always be so here I specified a lot of possibilities.
04:25:35 <ais523> it'd remove a layer of strategy to do the vast majority of those possibilities
04:26:52 <zzo38> What strategy do you think would be different with each one?
04:33:50 <ais523> zzo38: double-targeting would only be valuable under prompt or auto same side, unless you were confident that it would KO
04:33:55 <ais523> err, not KO without it
04:34:33 <ais523> it's risky enough as it is because of Protect, and it just wouldn't work under almost all those rules
04:34:48 <zzo38> There is also self-destruct, though
04:35:01 <zzo38> But yes I believe you are correct in general
04:35:25 <ais523> ever since the nerf in gen V, selfdestruct hasn't done enough damage to be useful, and it hits everything so there's no invalid target correction anyway
04:35:55 <ais523> base 200 of (nearly always) the wrong type is like base 133 STAB
04:36:12 <ais523> which is only slightly higher than the top attackers would be doing anyway, and the drawback's really large
04:36:18 <ais523> if it's not oneshotting things, you wouldn't use it
04:36:21 <ais523> and it doesn't oneshot things
04:36:23 <zzo38> I mean if the target uses selfdestruct and goes first
04:37:07 <ais523> if you thought that would happen, you'd just use Protect
04:38:56 <zzo38> But what if you didn't think that would happen (but it happen anyways) or if you don't have Protect?
04:41:26 <ais523> if you didn't think it would happen, you probably weren't strategizing for it
04:41:39 <ais523> and in doubles, it's quite rare to not have Protect, and if you do, you're probably going all-in on going first
04:41:42 <ais523> so the target isn't going first
04:41:49 <ais523> err, if you do go without Protect
04:42:08 <ais523> finally, if the opponent's using Selfdestruct, it's going to be because they think it's a KO
04:42:16 <ais523> so it probably will be a KO, and you won't be able to attack anyway
04:43:25 <zzo38> If the invalid target correction is set to USER FAINTS, LOSE BATTLE, or DISQUALIFY, and they have the ability to go first, then they will use it even if it isn't a KO, just to trick you
04:44:09 <ais523> yes, but those settings are silly
04:44:31 <ais523> with lose battle / disqualify, you'd get a free win with encore/memento and a wobbuffet
04:45:02 <ais523> which is as stupid, as combos go, as the one where you use serene grace blissey in order to trick the opponent into breaking sleep clause
04:45:09 <ais523> (I actually did use serene grace blissey, but not for that reason)
04:45:21 <zzo38> Then for what reason?
04:46:46 <ais523> so that I could get it paralyzed and it couldn't get poisoned after that
04:46:55 <ais523> or, in general, I could switch it into status moves to protect it from toxic poison
04:47:02 <ais523> sleep and toxic poison are huge problems for blissey
04:47:15 <ais523> and toxic spikes will toxic poison it on every switch in
04:47:25 <Bike> here is a pokemon art http://evandahm.tumblr.com/post/63890319543/
04:47:26 <ais523> but getting it paralyzed avoids that problem
04:47:40 <ais523> also it gave a higher chance of freezing with ice beam, which is always nice
04:47:49 <ais523> and helped save on PP due to the paralysis
04:48:08 <ais523> so it tends to win long drawn-out battles
04:49:40 <ais523> my blissey was almost invincible against just about anything that wasn't able to kill it within 2 turns
04:52:01 <ais523> or toxic poison / sleep it
04:53:30 <Sgeo> What game, Pokemon?
04:53:43 <zzo38> How much do you expect use of doubling cube to affect the game?
04:58:39 <zzo38> What about formats for creating the team? There is official, custom data, rental, random, random rental, duplicate random rental, and you could have drafts and auctions too.
04:59:02 <ais523> zzo38: doubling cube works much the same way in any game
04:59:06 <zzo38> (The first two formats are Constructed and the others are Limited.)
05:00:56 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, Official and Custom Data would correspond to Standard and Proxy.
05:02:08 <zzo38> ais523: How do you think it is affecting pokemon game specifically though, what kind of strategies may differ as a result?
05:02:32 <Bike> Seven hundred and sixty one armless and legless corpses float inconspicuously around the inside of hangar ninety six. I say that they are inconspicuous because it is their arms and legs which demand my attention.
05:02:55 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think it'd affect it in any specific way compared to other games
05:08:19 <zzo38> Which formats do you prefer, Constructed, Limited, or both? (I always play the Limited formats myself, both in Magic: the Gathering and in Pokemon.)
05:10:36 <zzo38> What time controls do you use?
05:11:25 <Bike> novikov self-consistency
05:13:46 <zzo38> In a match consisting of multiple battles, there are even more things to consider: DELETE FAINTED POKEMON = NO | YES DELETED POKEMON GO TO OPPONENT'S COMPUTER = NO | YES SURRENDER COMMAND = BATTLE | MATCH POKEMON CENTER PRICE = PROHIBIT | REQUIRE | 0..99999 and of course the doubling cube is also one thing that applies to a match of multiple battles.
05:14:59 <zzo38> Such things as interest rates and inflation rates would also apply in such case if money is being used.
05:16:12 <zzo38> How do you expect these to affect strategies?
05:37:20 <zzo38> I made up a kind of Pokemon mahjong. It includes typed and typeless wildcards (typeless wildcards are only dealt after a drawn game and otherwise unused). There are two kind of sequences possible (numeric and evolutionary). A called set ("chii" or "pon") has to be unambiguous; for example, [2,joker,fire] is unambiguous, but [4,joker,fire] is ambiguous (it may represent [3,4,5], [4,5,6], or [4,4,4]), and [1,joker,fire] is not valid.
05:37:50 <zzo38> (It is OK for a closed set to be ambiguous.)
05:39:03 <zzo38> ([3,joker,fire] is also ambiguous; it represents either [2,3,4] or [3,4,5], but not [3,3,3]. If you understand Pokemon then you should understand this!)
05:40:40 <Bike> I don't understand this.
05:40:51 <zzo38> Do you understand Pokemon?
05:41:59 <zzo38> What part did you not quite understand?
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05:48:16 <zzo38> Also, [1,2,joker] is unambiguous, [2,3,joker] is ambiguous, and [150,151,joker] is unambiguous in first generation but ambiguous in later generations. Hopefully this is clear enough, since there is no zero (if there is then clearly it is ambiguous).
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06:12:11 <Taneb> Been playing Guns of Icarus Online
06:16:26 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jd-iaYLO1A
06:16:35 <Sgeo> (US-politics related)
06:24:52 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> isn't there a bot here that can do unit conversion <-- yes, `frink on HackEgo
06:25:31 <HackEgo> 4000000000000000/45359237 (approx. 8.818490487395103e7)
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06:28:40 <oerjan> @tell quintopia `frink 40 Gg -> pound
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07:34:31 <Gracenotes> say, how many years should I renew my domain for
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07:38:14 <ais523> Gracenotes: I went for 3 because I got a discount on that
07:38:35 <ais523> I doubt it matters much, though
07:38:42 <ais523> so long as you know you're going to hold onto it
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07:44:25 <Gracenotes> I ended up choosing 3 because it looks like it's a magic number, but I think the cost for me scales up proportionally
07:46:29 <Gracenotes> if I die and my domain expires shortly after, surely that will be sad, but I won't be around for it.
08:07:29 <oerjan> clearly what we need is for people to pay for the next period 3 years before the previous runs out.
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08:19:53 <Taneb> I'm losing my battle against sleep
08:20:32 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Sun Oct 13 09:20:33
08:21:05 <Taneb> I've been awake for ~24 hours
08:22:10 <Gracenotes> ...er, jeez, it's 1:21AM here. when did that happen.
08:24:13 <Gracenotes> after about 4 years of thinking about doing so, I'm writing an HTML page about all of the projects I've done
08:24:28 <Gracenotes> or, at least starting to. I think I've started to before.
08:24:41 <Gracenotes> mostly a lot of technical reports that I have no reason not to publish.
08:25:27 <Gracenotes> maybe it's a bit against the point that I'm only starting to do this now that I'm gainfully employed.
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08:41:21 <Gracenotes> (yeah, partly in that sharing ideas is nicer when you have mostly-unstructured free time...)
08:50:47 <fizzie> Every time I see a polished sphere I get this urge to photograph it. (Cf. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131013-balls.jpg for example.)
08:55:24 <fizzie> Also https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131013-balls2.jpg and so on and so forth.
08:59:23 <oerjan> if fizzie ever meets a disco ball we won't see him again.
08:59:45 <fizzie> oerjan: I own a disco ball, yet here I am.
09:00:14 <oerjan> oh right, you solved the problem by bringing it with you. fiendish.
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09:00:51 <oerjan> Taneb: what seems to be the problem.
09:01:11 <Taneb> oerjan, i slightly haven't slept
09:01:32 <oerjan> ic. we shall use the ancient and tried procedure for this.
09:02:00 <oerjan> this is the slight problem with the ancient and tried procedure.
09:02:06 <oerjan> Taneb: GO TO SLEEPING BAG
09:02:09 <Taneb> And I'd need to cart my desktop over
09:02:15 <Taneb> I didn't bring one!
09:03:24 * oerjan has vague memories of the local (tabletop) gamer's con.
09:03:49 <oerjan> and of sleeping on mats, maybe.
09:03:56 <fizzie> Taneb: GO TO UNDER TABLE
09:03:57 <Taneb> Since my last sleep, I have consumed one bowl of cereal, one hot chocolate, one 500ml bottle of coca cola, one packet of crisps, and a lot of water
09:04:26 <Taneb> So, I'm cold, hungry, overtired, and something else
09:04:41 <oerjan> Taneb: i now also have vagure memories of the cuisine at the con. you might try a sausage if they have them.
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09:05:51 <Taneb> The only consumables they provide seem to be a ridiculous high-energy slushy thing
09:06:04 * oerjan also has vague memories of the second con where he gave up and went home to sleep.
09:07:33 <oerjan> my memory is too vague to tell whether i returned after sleeping or not.
09:18:08 <oklofok> lol you used to be such a nerd
09:18:32 <oklofok> what were you like at lan parties
09:18:46 <oerjan> i never went to a lan party that i can recall
09:18:58 <oklofok> i thought gamer con was some kind of lan party
09:19:23 <oerjan> these days it can be, which is why i added the "tabletop".
09:20:19 <oerjan> these were board games and role playing games (which weren't computer games either).
09:20:30 <oklofok> oh ok i was not familiar with that term.
09:20:36 <oklofok> i thought it meant a computer.
09:21:01 <fizzie> No, that's a *desk*top, obviously a completely different thing.
09:21:18 <oerjan> you just cannot win when people start stealing your terminology.
09:21:47 <oklofok> so what were you like at board game parties
09:22:16 <oklofok> i'm thinking beer bong & cocaine
09:22:36 <fizzie> I went to Ropecon (a tabletop-ish gamer con, though it's related things too) once or twice, and also have "fond" memories of the "cuisine". (Also haven't really been able to look at potato salad the same way since.)
09:23:01 <oerjan> these were drug and alcohol free. they were trying to recruit youngsters to the club, after all.
09:23:01 <oklofok> i've been to konklaavi, which i guess is turku's attempt at ropecon
09:23:31 <oklofok> i played this board game where you program a robot
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09:24:03 <oerjan> (i think i saw it played but never played myself)
09:25:03 <oklofok> i think that was the only thing i played, i usually prefer watching
09:25:55 <fizzie> oerjan: Also I think I left some potato salad on a table with a "free to take (if you don't bring it back)" sign while sleeping somewhere nearby, and when I woke up, *someone had taken it*.
09:26:22 <oerjan> fizzie: worked perfectly then!
09:27:13 <fizzie> They also had a Brockian Ultra-Cricket tournament there, because I tried sleeping in a plastic-tubing-duct-tape-and-foam canoe that someone had made for a weapon.
09:27:20 * oerjan has an eerie premonition
09:27:54 <oerjan> nope, this year's con isn't until a month from now.
09:29:16 <fizzie> Ropecon XX (20th time) this year was in late July. (Didn't go.)
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10:04:05 <myname> sad thing i'm way too stupid for military
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10:12:31 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit Taneb, clear rooms of stone before furnishing them
10:13:12 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: how that?
10:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> it even makes the temperature system not half your FPS
10:15:17 <nooodl> how do people "get into" df these days
10:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> uh-oh, i think i cooked all our plump helmets and most of the booze
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10:26:43 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile, a ranger is shooting at a carp out of some sense of dwarven triumphalism
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10:30:08 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: it still doesn't work without X, though
10:31:12 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: i don't do windows
10:31:21 <myname> thing is, i'm playing df via ssh
10:31:52 <fizzie> X goes over SSH just fine. (For some values of "just fine" that aren't very large for slow links.)
10:32:09 <fizzie> (And there's things for that scenario too.)
10:32:34 <myname> exactly that is my problem
10:32:51 <myname> i may have to search for a good way of using it
10:33:06 <myname> tbh, i use the liquids hack a lot
10:34:30 <myname> i just don't like pumping magma up all the way :(
10:34:50 <fizzie> I'm not sure I understand why adding hooks to libsdl would be incompatible with networksing the SDL output.
10:35:06 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: i have a werebeast with no military :/
10:35:38 <myname> fizzie: afaik dfhack forks itself into df to get the pid
10:36:29 <fizzie> myname: I'm still not seeing how that's relevant.
10:37:05 <fizzie> (Of course I don't know anything about dfhack, or df in general.)
10:37:05 <myname> one may hack dfhack to make it work other ways, but afaik it doesn't work with networking right now
10:39:35 <fizzie> I guess I just don't get it. If you have SDL library using an X backend, it ought to use the X server reached through $DISPLAY even if there's patches to the library, or it's started in some fancy way.
10:39:51 <Phantom_Hoover> the farms aren't producing any food for whatever reason
10:48:30 <fizzie> Well, I just started dfhack on my workstation at work some 6 kilometres away, and I don't understand anything of what's happining, but I did get a "DFHack is ready" in the console, and a SDL window with "Slaves to Armok: God of Blood" Chapter II title in it.
10:49:07 <fizzie> So as far as I can tell, it seems to be working just fine forwarded over a SSH connection. (Two, in fact, since the workstation in question isn't directly reachable from the outside; had to go through a shell server first.)
10:50:05 <fizzie> (It's typically forwarded-X laggy, and there's no sound because of "Dynamically loading the OpenAL library failed, disabling sound" and anyway networked sound is a bigger headache always, but other than that.)
10:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> sound in df consists of one music track playing on a loop
10:51:08 <fizzie> "Forwarded-X laggy" meaning about one second between keypress and action in the title screen.
10:51:41 <fizzie> But there are things one can do to make forwarded X significantly faster that shouldn't make it any less likely to work.
10:52:09 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: well, there is soundsense
10:54:41 <fizzie> (Even plain X can be borderline usable over a LAN connection, this was a VDSL2 link and through ten hops to the shell server, and four more to the workstation (different department).)
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10:57:29 <fizzie> NX makes things faster though involves more setup, and there's the Xvnc approach (virtual-framebuffer X on the same box as the process + compressed VNC for the screen), and I seem to recall hearing about something NX-y except newer and better.
10:58:29 <myname> i'd still prefer it just sitting in the terminal, but i guess it can't be helped
11:02:28 <fizzie> With the usual "faster SSH" flags ("-C -c blowfish-cbc,arcfour" -- compression and faster encryption methods, if you dare) the input lag in the title screen drops to something like 0.2 seconds, maybe. (Hard to judge.) I've used programs with interfaces this slow locally.
11:03:31 <fizzie> (Possibly the compression made more of a difference, I don't believe it's a CPU-bound thing at these link speeds.)
11:06:00 <Phantom_Hoover> CPU-bound and dwarf fortress are phrases which fit together nicely
11:06:36 <myname> that is one reason i don't want to play it on my netbook
11:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> amazingly in my last fort there wasn't any slowdown, at all
11:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure whether it's having a better laptop or dfhack or both, though
11:07:43 <myname> i played a nanofortress once
11:07:55 <myname> it was like "wow, this stuff actually can be fast"
11:09:47 <myname> if it were just for liquids, i might transfer the savegame and make that stuff locally
11:09:57 <myname> that doesn't help withmilitary, though
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11:12:08 <fizzie> Oh, right Xpra was the other fancy thing for slow-link X I was thinking of.
11:13:11 <myname> well, the brokenness is not my personal main issue
11:13:20 <myname> it's just too complicated for me
11:13:34 <myname> everything is fine but military
11:16:14 <myname> well, that and textile industry tbh
11:16:45 <myname> i had a fortress once that got completely destroyed by the clothing-for-happiness update
11:16:53 <myname> and i'm kinda traumatized since then
11:22:34 <myname> yeah, but not very good ones
11:24:32 <myname> i want my dorfs like i want my women: happy and drunk
11:50:17 <nooodl> i'm no expert on english pronunciation but i feel like it should be "dorvs"
11:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the two things you can make a backpack with are leather and adamantine
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14:09:35 <fizzie> The first hit is always free?
14:09:47 <myname> i doubt i will play it somewhere as good as you
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14:29:11 <Phantom_Hoover> myname, if you want the save then i'll kill the ambush before handing it over, but i recommend setting up a hospital asap
14:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oh it just figures, the one dorf who dies has to be the expedition leader/manager/bookkeeper
14:32:27 <myname> one time i had an ambush and my leader was like "okay, i gotta go and watch what's happening there"
14:37:57 <Phantom_Hoover> why am i producing no drink! why are hungry dorfs going straight for the plump helmets rather than the prepared meals!!!
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14:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> myname, http://www.filedropper.com/region3 if you're man enough
14:57:41 <fizzie> *swoon* such a manly file
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15:17:43 <zzo38> A rule I was thinking to use in Pokemon battle game is PP factor, which is 5 by default but you might play with a lower PP factor in case 5 is too easy.
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15:32:07 <Koen_> zzo38: well I guess that depends on the game mechanics
15:32:25 <Koen_> I recall in the video games 5 was the lowest, and most attacks had 15 or 20
15:32:37 <lambdabot> kmc said 1d 16h 40m 18s ago: the C-T thesis is about machines which can actually be built; it's easy enough to make mathematical models stronger than a Turing Machine
15:33:53 <oerjan> the C-T boundary, on the other hand.
15:35:04 <oerjan> ok so it's actually K not C
15:35:14 <oerjan> and they've just renamed T to Pg.
15:36:27 <fizzie> Apparently you can blame the Germans for the K, unsurprisingly.
15:36:47 <oerjan> i really knew that. it's "Kritt" in norwegian.
15:37:14 <zzo38> Koen_: They are a multiple of five (or sometimes just one); this "PP factor" is the multipler to use in place of five (if set to zero, all attacks with have 1 PP)
15:38:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Liitu(kausi) in Finnish, for some reason.
15:40:47 <fizzie> Though limestone in general is "kalkki(kivi)", which I would assume comes from the same place as chalk.
15:40:55 <oerjan> presumably a lot of chalk was made at the time.
15:42:28 <fizzie> Yes, I was just wondering about the etymology of "liitu".
15:43:39 <fizzie> The two generic Finnish dictionaries I have web-access to don't include etymology entries.
15:47:05 <fizzie> I suppose "liitu" and "kritt" could also share roots, actually. (Also it's "kriit" in Estonian.)
15:48:11 <oerjan> i can understand dropping a k, but why would the r turn into l, given that finnish has proper r.
15:48:22 <fizzie> Perhaps someone misheard.
15:48:29 <oerjan> maybe it's been borrowed via a language that doesn't have r
15:48:51 <fizzie> "From Swedish krita" says the Wiktionary of fi:liitu.
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15:50:15 <oerjan> maybe finnish didn't have r until it started heavy borrowing?
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15:51:01 <Yogi_Bear> Invitation http://www.tatuuu.com.br
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15:51:05 <fizzie> I've certainly not heard of that being the case.
15:54:30 <fizzie> Proto-Uralic, according to Wikipedia, does have a trill /r/.
15:56:57 <oerjan> but has that been preserved as /r/ in finnish
15:58:01 <fizzie> At least in the single 'r'-containing example word the "Vocabulary" section of the Proto-Uralic article has.
16:00:53 <oerjan> what about word-initially
16:00:59 <fizzie> The other "kr"-starting Swedish examples that have a similar-sounding Finnish word I can think of generally have a 'r' left. Like krabba <=> rapu.
16:01:23 <oerjan> maybe the etymology is just mistaken.
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16:02:25 <fizzie> Or both k and r, like kris-kriisi.
16:03:19 <oerjan> presumably more is preserved the newer the loan
16:07:13 <fizzie> There's a Finnish etymological database but I don't have access to it. There's also a freely available database of cross-references, which lists five book-and-page entries discussing "liitu", but of course not the contents.
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17:06:30 <zzo38> Is there a C library for cross-platform access of what is the directory where the executable program is stored and files that override ones in that directory? SDL 2 has some, but it isn't available in SDL 1 and uses UTF-8 rather than native filenames, and I want to use native filenames instead.
17:13:50 <zzo38> Also I wanted a cross-platform printing library so that I can just send ESC/P codes and it converts them and sends them to the printer.
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18:46:43 <zzo38> I want to know some cross-platform library to support printing with ESC/P codes so that I can use it with the Z-machine interpreter.
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18:58:55 <Sgeo_> https://code.google.com/p/awib/
19:00:09 <Sgeo_> (NSFW source code)
19:01:32 <Sgeo_> The source code is arranged as ASCII art of a naked woman
19:03:29 <zzo38> Do you like give away chess puzzle? Do you like tsume shogi?
19:05:35 <Bike> ah yeah gonna get off on this triangle of space characters
19:10:44 <FireFly> For instance, malware could probably be considered NSFW...
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19:17:29 <tswett> Hey, I think Gregor did a great job on that new album. I really liked the face paint.
19:21:38 <zzo38> I have two different ideas of making a text adventure game; do you like any of this?
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19:43:43 <zzo38> tswett: What album is that?
19:44:16 <tswett> The one that's coming out on the 29th.
19:44:20 * oerjan assumes some gregorian chant
19:57:15 <Sgeo_> I should totally make some Racket language that makes Racket more like Tcl
20:06:59 <zzo38> One of the games is there is one starting room with many spell stones (like scrolls, but much more heavy), you have to pick a few and go through everywhere else and use that to your advantage and them come back, get new ones, go around again, until you have completed the game. Do you like this?
20:08:29 <myname> i may be playing it, but i won't write it
20:08:38 <zzo38> Of course I write the game, not you
20:08:49 <zzo38> I would also write the other game trilogy
20:10:11 <zzo38> (For the other game that I didn't just describe now, that is why I was asking about DNA that goes the other way, and I study other scientific things)
20:10:17 <myname> well, personally i am looking for a game idea to realize
20:10:26 <myname> but i have no creativity at all
20:10:45 <zzo38> myname: Using what system, do you expect? Is it DOS, Z-machine, C+SDL, etc?
20:10:56 <zzo38> I can provide some ideas
20:11:42 <myname> well, i'd prefer a pretty boring linux shell :p
20:12:24 <zzo38> I do not understand very well what you wanted
20:12:35 <zzo38> Do you mean you are going to write in shell scripts?
20:13:04 <myname> in fact, i want to write in rust with termbox or ncurses
20:13:24 <zzo38> So it is a text grid, do you mean?
20:15:10 <zzo38> I have made various games using that in CGA Collection (some are graphical but most are text grid); will that give you any idea?
20:15:30 <zzo38> (One of my ideas was to make a game based around the limitations of the Famicom, so that I can later put it in Famicom too)
20:15:52 <myname> what limitations are you aiming at?
20:16:33 <zzo38> Mainly the PPU limitations, where there are a limit of eight sprites per scanline and areas of 2x2 tiles sharing an attribute (palette).
20:17:58 <myname> sounds interesting, but i'm not really a graphics guy
20:18:12 <zzo38> (I have made a puzzle game based on these limitations. In the CGA Collection, it is called "ATTRZONE", and it does use text mode, not graphics mode.)
20:18:50 <myname> should i know the cga collection?
20:18:51 <zzo38> You can also make text adventure games (and even text grid games) using Z-machine; I have written the Frolg assembler and the Aimfiz and Fweep interpreters, if you want to use Z-machine.
20:19:10 <zzo38> myname: Maybe; you can look if you want to at least: http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP
20:20:04 <zzo38> (The interpreter Fweep can run in a text window/terminal emulator, although it doesn't support grid windows, colors, etc; Aimfiz is SDL and does support grid windows and colors and so on.)
20:20:57 <myname> please use the gopher service
20:21:45 <zzo38> myname: What are you trying to access?
20:21:47 <myname> but firefox dropped gopher-support a while ago :(
20:22:02 <zzo38> I don't have an index; you have to access directly by the filenames.
20:22:32 <myname> and what's behind the gopher?
20:24:16 <zzo38> There is menus in gopher, although it is not quite complete. There are gopher clients (I have written two, one in shell scripts and one in VB6; there is also OverbiteFF to support gopher in Firefox). Probably you can just know the filename though you can access the file (even using wget or whatever; there aren't any webpages to navigate before finding the file to download)
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20:24:58 <zzo38> (You can also write your own gopher client; it is not difficult)
20:25:53 <zzo38> Just to download a file though you don't need it; you can download files over HTTP using wget or curl, or you can download files over gopher by something like "echo filename.zip | nc example.org 70 > filename.zip" or whatever.
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20:26:30 <myname> why do you even use gopher?
20:28:30 <zzo38> It doesn't use the stupid stuff of HTML and HTTP and that stuff; it also saves energy
20:29:57 <zzo38> But most files are available on HTTP too, so if you have wget or whatever you can easily download these files in that way. (You can also download or view using a web browser)
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20:34:48 <zzo38> I do have other ideas for computer games though
20:35:16 <zzo38> Such as, sokoban with strange geometry
20:36:02 <myname> that needs lots of levels, though
20:36:29 <Koen_> sokoban is "I give you the sum of each row and column and you find the numbers in each cell" right?
20:36:58 <zzo38> Or, the Z-Comp theme, which is this: Richardson fire // 2009-10 Leicester City F.C. season // Merciful to gibbering mouthers and the other monsters (pick one, two, or all three combined; that would be difficult)
20:37:10 <Koen_> I once played a wooden game kinda like that where there was a skycrapper in every cell and you could see the projection on very row and column
20:37:26 <zzo38> Sokoban is push the blocks on the targets
20:37:38 <myname> Koen_: that's part of simon tathams portable puzzle collection
20:37:46 <Koen_> that is, if one row has skycrappers of height 3, 4, 1, 2 and you're looking from the right, you only see that there is a height 2, and behind it a height 4
20:38:05 <myname> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/
20:38:14 <zzo38> Koen_: I have played a similar game except that it only tell you how many are visible, not their height
20:38:25 <Koen_> okay maybe that was it
20:40:20 <zzo38> myname: Do you like any of these ideas I wrote now? I do have some others ideas too
20:40:58 <myname> where there some i missed?
20:41:30 <myname> the sokoban may be interesting to play, but it would bore the shit out of me as a developer as i have to know all the levels already
20:42:03 <zzo38> Another idea is some game that you have to prevent all of the magnets from touching each other; I am unsure how to make such a computer game though
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20:49:00 <zzo38> Here are some other computer game ideas (some aren't mine, but most are): http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10081 See if that help you at something
20:50:55 <zzo38> myname: Are these good?
20:51:19 <myname> have to read them first :D
20:52:08 <myname> where do you get all those ideas
20:52:59 <myname> i do like "hoplite" for android
20:53:18 <myname> it's a roguelike where moving into an opponent is NOT a method to attack
20:53:29 <myname> that alone makes it very interesting
20:54:01 <zzo38> Yes, OK, if you move into opponent what happens, is your path blocked, do you enter the same space, or what?
20:55:11 <myname> you attack by either move from next to a monster to another tile next to it (it's hexa tiled)
20:55:38 <zzo38> O, I think I once made up a chess variant like that
20:55:47 <myname> or moving in it's direction and sting
20:56:12 <myname> or throw your lance (in which case you may not sting until you get it again)
20:56:34 <myname> so every permanent way of attacking requires you to be able to move
20:57:10 <zzo38> Yes, that is understandable now
20:57:23 <zzo38> And yes it is a bit similar to some chess variant I once made (although it wasn't hex)
20:58:01 <myname> http://www.nongnu.org/tong/ looks a bit like your third idea, even if it's not pinball
20:59:04 <myname> also, i played some mix of minesweeper and dungeon ascending, very interesting idea
21:02:16 <zzo38> Yes, I have played that too
21:02:41 <zzo38> I have designed a roguelike called KING and someone reviewed it too
21:07:25 <myname> zzo38: what do you mean by "delayed by different amounts"?
21:09:22 <zzo38> I don't really know exactly
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21:16:02 <nooodl> i'm torn between "yes" and keeping the game alive
21:16:11 <nooodl> really i think i'll have to go for "no" though :(
21:16:23 <nooodl> maybe i should learn how to play df decently and then i could play in a couple of years!!
21:16:33 <nooodl> (plot twist: irl years)
21:16:44 <myname> not really a plot twist
21:16:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't get why people get so caught up on that, elliott was shit and he never let that stop him
21:17:14 <Phantom_Hoover> you need to have that can-do spirit that leads to the fort collapsing utterly because it ran out of booze for no good reason
21:17:49 <myname> i need a working military system
21:18:43 <zzo38> I am also writing a roguelike called "Savant's Maze"; rooms may be generated overlapping and one of the terrain is windows that you can see through but not move through. I implemented data structures, line of sight, level generation, and a few others and then I can add the rest.
21:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> the way i left it the only thing the military needed was for steel armour to be made; they'd train and equip themselves on their own
21:20:26 <Bike> elliott: so if i get a virtual server thing to run shit on + stop annoying people by disconnecting who should i be renting from
21:21:07 <zzo38> Do you like any other of my computer game ideas too?
21:23:08 <myname> i like the idea of guarding something, but it's missing
21:25:24 <fizzie> Bike: I've used prgmr and tilaa so far, and both have been just fine.
21:26:08 <myname> maybe one could make a roguelike with some tourist exploring a dungeon on his own
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21:27:36 <myname> like, you are rodney and have to stop an adventurer
21:27:37 <fizzie> Bike: And esolangs.org is on linode, which is I think reasonably popular, if not quite the most "budget" option (though certainly also not the most expensive) out there.
21:28:13 <Bike> that warning about not getting phished is scary
21:28:45 <fizzie> They had some nasty security issues a while back, but that could be a function of popularity too.
21:29:03 <Bike> i mean, i don't know what to do to avoid getting haxed.
21:29:54 <impomatic> Does anyone use a personal wiki or something similar? I need something to help me organise some stuff...
21:29:54 <fizzie> "Don't install Wordpress/Drupal/other-big-web-thing" seems to be a good step.
21:30:08 <Bike> impomatic: i used to use tiddlywiki
21:30:49 <fizzie> I used to use DokuWiki.
21:31:12 <fizzie> It's perhaps less "personal".
21:31:27 <fizzie> In that people use it "for reals".
21:31:39 <Bike> tiddlywiki is just one page with a shitload of javascript, nice and easy
21:32:13 <fizzie> As for organizing stuff, there's of course good old venerable org-mode.
21:33:00 <fizzie> Some people[citation needed][who?][dubious - discuss] are very... ardent about org-mode.
21:33:53 <Bike> isn't it [weasel words] more than [citation needed]
21:34:52 <fizzie> And perhaps not very dubious, but I like how the "dubious-discuss" sounds.
21:35:17 <Bike> yeah it's good
21:38:03 <impomatic> Grrrr... wikipedia. "It is proposed that this article be deleted because of the following concern: Notability"
21:43:17 <myname> wikipedia even deleted the subtitles for the modem dial-in sound :(
21:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> http://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/dial-up-handshake-infographic.png this thing
21:46:11 <myname> there is a dial-up modem sound
21:46:29 <myname> like "bow beep beep beep" and stuff
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23:32:24 <HegoDamask> i am trying to solve a riddle where esoteric programming is involved, anybody willing to help me out with some really basic stuff?
23:33:22 <HegoDamask> basically i have shakespeare prorgamming code, and it should give me some "hello world"-like program outputting 2 numbers.
23:33:37 <HegoDamask> but i dont know how to compile this kinda stuff
23:34:01 <mnoqy> does the wiki page have any resources
23:34:29 <HegoDamask> well i found the compiler software for linux, unfortunately i dont run on linux and have next to zero knowledge on using it
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23:35:43 <HegoDamask> is there compiler softare for windows?
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23:57:07 <Fiora> what language is the code in?
23:59:15 <Bike> @google esolang shakespeare
23:59:16 <lambdabot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Shakespeare
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02:46:59 <HegoDamask> have to leave now i will try my luck again tomorrow, thanks anyways guys
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05:42:14 <zzo38> The control scheme in the Apogee games "Pharaoh's Tomb" and "Arctic Adventure" is something I didn't see in other platformer games and is the control scheme I happen to prefer: left/right shift keys to move left/right, space jumps, and any of ZXCVBNM,./ shoots.
05:53:25 <zzo38> It looks like someone is making a NES/Famicom game entirely in hex coding!!!!
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06:58:56 <fizzie> "xmlset_roodkcableoj28840ybtide" :)
07:06:27 <olsner> > echo roodkcableoj28840ybtide | rev
07:06:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:30: parse error on input `|'
07:06:35 <olsner> `run echo roodkcableoj28840ybtide | rev
07:06:46 <kmc> MDZhB 24 664 NAYeMNICA 34 21 29 93 priyom
07:07:01 <kmc> olsner: O_O
07:07:31 <kmc> i didn't know that wrinkle of it
07:07:53 <kmc> i wonder if 04882 is joel's bank code
07:08:53 <fizzie> Possibly a version control revision number.
07:08:57 <fizzie> ("What version control?")
07:09:13 <fizzie> zzo38: It's a backdoor recently published in D-Link routers. It lets you access the web config interface if you give a HTTP User-Agent with that string.
07:10:13 <fizzie> (Apparently it's intended purpose is to let some tools on the router change settings.)
07:11:12 <fizzie> Or maybe an employee ID or something.
07:11:23 <fizzie> Perhaps Joel's user account is 04882joel.
07:12:28 <kmc> the influence of illuminati numerology is obvious
07:12:40 <kmc> most obvious in the fact that it doesn't contain any of the usual illuminati numbers
07:13:19 <zzo38> What are usual illuminati numbers, and what does that have anything to do with it?
07:13:27 <kmc> 17, 23, 5, etc
07:13:50 <kmc> and, little to nothing
07:13:53 <Bike> if the illuminati wanted to hide their influence they wouldn't include any of the usual numbers. c'mon zzo get with it
07:14:51 <zzo38> Bike: I suppose you are correct about that, but if you really want to hide your influence then, if the numbers happen to occur naturally anyways then you would use them anyways just because it goes that way
07:15:13 <Bike> but if the illuminati numbers are in it you know the illuminati did it.
07:16:26 <Bike> why would the illuminati numbers be in it if not for the illuminati
07:16:57 <zzo38> That's what they want you to think!
07:17:26 <Bike> if it was what they wanted me to think they would hav eput the numbers somewhere in the think but they didn't so they didn't.
07:17:30 <kmc> apparently "NAYeMNICA" means "mercenary"
07:17:55 <kmc> it would be funny if the numbers station codebook happened to pick 'mercenary' as the code word for 'mercenary' and they had to use it anyway because what zzo38 said
07:18:21 <zzo38> Bike: No, I mean *that* is what they want you to think.
07:18:23 <Bike> that is how they broke enigma after all
07:18:31 <Bike> zzo38: right and that doesn't have any numbers in it
07:19:16 <kmc> some of the CIA's CORONA satellites were done in by (coincidentally named) corona discharge
07:19:33 <kmc> Bike: you mean the fact that it never mapped a letter to itself? yeah that was useful
07:20:16 <kmc> i dunno if you can attribute breaking enigma to that one thing though
07:20:25 <kmc> the third reich HATES this 1 weird old trick for winning world war 2
07:20:51 <Bike> probably not, but i hav eto demonstrate that i know irrelevant facts about seventy year old ciphers somehow
07:21:04 <zzo38> You think it needs to have numbers in it......
07:21:15 <zzo38> Not necessarily.......
07:21:21 <kmc> the polish intelligence agency was reading enigma traffic before it was cool
07:22:42 <fizzie> "Enigma Traffic" is probably a band name.
07:23:26 <Bike> apparently there's a town called Enigma in georgia
07:23:59 <Bike> i tell you this because googling "Enigma Traffic" will find you some lawyers for dealing with traffic tickets in this town
07:24:58 <fizzie> Some of those NSA code names are p. funny too. (EGOISTICALGIRAFFE?)
07:25:23 <Bike> that's just what they want you to think.
07:25:27 <Bike> egotesticlegiraffe
07:26:58 <fizzie> I remember reading some Clancy novel "Way Back" -- hey, you go with what's available -- where they (people at CIA) called some guy downstairs for random names out of a random-name machine.
07:27:04 <zzo38> So that you will misspell it
07:27:37 <fizzie> I wonder if that's how it works for reals.
07:27:49 <Bike> it was back in the seventies.
07:28:22 <Bike> well, sometimes.
07:28:34 <Bike> looks like the codename for the FBI was "ODENVY" which sounds slightly less than coincidental.
07:28:51 <Bike> and... ODYOKE for the US federal government, that's slightly terrifying.
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07:29:09 <fizzie> [[ “That’s next.” Moore lifted his phone again and tapped in five numbers. “I need two words…Uh-huh, thank you.” He wrote a few things down. “Okay, gentlemen, you’re calling this Operation MANDOLIN. You, Ryan, are Magi. ]]
07:29:11 <Bike> something about the ETA was LINCOLN though.
07:29:33 <zzo38> They do it on purpose; they don't want other people to spell it correctly.
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07:30:38 <fizzie> It is nice that I have some brainspace apparently permanently wasted storing the bit of information that the random word they got in a book I read 15-20 years ago was MANDOLIN.
07:31:33 <Bike> to be fair, mandolins are great.
07:45:55 <zzo38> All opponent's pokemon card are futile.
07:48:35 <kmc> if you say so
08:02:10 <impomatic> Now a bit of my brainspace is wasted storing info about fizzie's random word! :-/
08:02:26 <impomatic> To be fair, most of my brainspace is wasted :-)
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08:09:44 <oerjan> <zzo38> Another idea is some game that you have to prevent all of the magnets from touching each other; I am unsure how to make such a computer game though <-- tatham's collection also has a "magnets" game, although the point there is you can only touch + sides to - sides.
08:10:51 <oerjan> (they're marked with + and - instead of N and S, for some reason.)
08:19:01 <oerjan> 21:33:00: <fizzie> Some people[citation needed][who?][dubious - discuss] are very... ardent about org-mode.
08:19:04 <oerjan> 21:33:53: <Bike> isn't it [weasel words] more than [citation needed]
08:19:21 <oerjan> {{who?}} is a weasel words template afair
08:20:11 * impomatic goes to check his favourite pages on Wikipedia
08:21:19 <oerjan> they decided to delete Irregular Webcomic! too :(
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09:44:32 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA* my theory about girl genius was right
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10:02:53 <oerjan> ^ul (That )S(that ):S(is )::SS~::SS~:(not )*:SS:S~S(it ):SSS
10:02:53 <fungot> That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is
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10:49:01 <fizzie> The most unbalanced-parenthesisy of computers.
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11:30:19 <fizzie> "The Cutwail botnet is known as "0bulk Psyche Evolution" in the underground market."
11:30:22 <fizzie> That sounds so sci-fi.
11:44:07 <Jafet> If I had a cool botnet, I wouldn't call it Cutwail.
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11:45:56 <Taneb> Should I audition for Iolanthe
11:50:21 <Taneb> An operetta about the queen of the fairies and the house of lords
11:52:54 <Taneb> That is it is about someone who is the queen of the fairies
11:53:07 <Taneb> And her interactions with the British House of Lords
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13:31:08 <Yogi_Bear> Invitation < Only Development > http://www.tatuuu.com.br
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14:51:08 <FireFly> fungot: what's your opinion re. spam?
14:51:08 <fungot> FireFly: adding a language to be in boundary(a) if every neighbourhood about x contains at least an initial fnord of 40 fnord. internet expo on fnord. fnord
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16:31:26 <oerjan> that /whowas list was impressive
16:49:42 <fizzie> fungot: You sound just like a real mathematician.
16:49:42 <fungot> fizzie: i know about windoz is less then 1/ 3; 2/ 7 then 1/ 2; 1/ 4 cup milk, 1/ 3
16:50:12 <oerjan> fungot: mathematics isn't just arithmetic, you know
16:50:12 <fungot> oerjan: whats that? sure :) i'll think about it. :) actually, i can't run my own mx with dreamhost, that's all
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17:16:59 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131014-4679.png I can't figure out if it's *supposed* to look like that. Maybe it is.
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17:18:40 <oerjan> clearly the graph snagged on the rotating database
17:18:52 <oerjan> no wonder it cannot take the load
17:19:43 <shachaf> kmc: http://ikeaordeath.com/
17:20:10 <HackEgo> olist (924): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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17:20:17 <fizzie> I was wondering about http://sprunge.us/hbUQ but I think it's just Skype futilely trying to punch through a NAT or something, based on the source address.
17:22:28 <oerjan> darn it was so easy until i got "samspelt"
17:22:46 <oerjan> (it's the first word that was both genuine swedish and related to music)
17:23:10 <fizzie> I got that right, though mostly accidentally.
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17:23:18 <fizzie> It didn't really sound "heavy" enough to be the other.
17:23:36 <oerjan> "Lack" is the table i have, i think
17:23:37 <fizzie> Knowing at least some Swedish probably makes it easier than not knowing.
17:23:59 <fizzie> LACK is a pretty popular series.
17:24:19 <oerjan> darn i also got "Von" wrong
17:24:22 <fizzie> It's not just a side table, there's also a TV stand and a wall shelf and whatnot.
17:24:50 <fizzie> You are a better IKEA.
17:25:22 <oerjan> i was very unsure on that too. "Von" means hope in nynorsk, but also is an obvious german name prefix.
17:25:39 <oerjan> and i was not sure if it meant something in swedish.
17:26:20 <oerjan> there were some others that i were nervous about, but they all went right
17:26:42 <fizzie> I had more trouble in the start, then I got in the "groove" and just clicked.
17:27:43 <FireFly> I really just went with whether it's a valid swedish word
17:29:02 <fizzie> Not all IKEA names are exact valid Swedish words.
17:29:47 <oerjan> indeed, some are place names from other parts of scandinavia
17:30:28 <oerjan> when i was in ikea last time i noticed "Hemnes", which is where my aunt used to live.
17:31:04 <fizzie> I think there's some Finnish names in there.
17:31:12 <fizzie> PELLO is a municipality in Finland.
17:31:28 <fizzie> Though apparently there's one also on Sweden's side too.
17:31:36 <oerjan> indeed, there was one in the quiz which i was nervous whether it could be a finnish place name, but i guess metal and was right.
17:31:42 <fizzie> (Opposite to Pello, Finland across the river.)
17:32:14 <oerjan> um i forget but it had a double vowel
17:32:57 <fizzie> I don't think it's a place. It doesn't quite sound Finnish.
17:32:57 <oerjan> hm i guess that's not very good vowel harmony
17:33:14 <fizzie> It's acceptable ('e' goes with front vowels too), but it feels somewhat off.
17:33:20 <fizzie> Then again, so do some actual places too.
17:34:37 <oerjan> oh hm it's probably the archaic spelling of no:tåke = en:fog
17:35:08 <fizzie> It is related to that, according to the Wikipedia page of the metal band.
17:36:47 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure that "oe" for "ø" is proper archaic spelling :D
17:37:19 <oerjan> the band seems to use that a lot
17:40:18 <fizzie> We went through Ekenäs the other day, that's such a Swedish-speaking place.
17:40:25 <fizzie> "The town is bilingual, with the majority being Swedish speakers (81%), and the minority Finnish speakers (17%)."
17:40:52 <fizzie> It's worse (or better, I guess that depends on point of view) than Hanko even though geographi-logically speaking it should be the other way around.
17:46:48 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131014-thing.jpg -- that was in Ekenäs. Can someone of you decipher what it means?
17:50:09 <oerjan> "now it's time to make a memory picture of your (still hot) summer ..." um
17:50:36 <fizzie> All the words seems to make sense in itself, but I am unable to sort of comprehend the whole.
17:50:38 <oerjan> not quite sure how to translate jag. and then it gets worse.
17:51:03 <oerjan> it's swedish, so "I" (or "Ego")
17:51:30 <fizzie> olsner: Comments from a native Swedishperson?
17:51:45 <fizzie> Though this thing was put up by a Swedish-speaking Finn, which is quite another thing altogether.
17:52:35 <oerjan> ok the _overall_ gist is "Make sure to remember how your summer is, it'll make it easier to survive the winter."
17:52:56 <fizzie> I guess that's more or less what I got out of it too.
17:53:02 <oerjan> it's just ridiculously pompously technobabbly expanded :P
17:53:52 <fizzie> It was next (nearly next) to a mini-golf course that had a "closed due to lack of players" on it.
17:54:07 <Koen__> I think it's got something to do about computer science
17:54:15 <oerjan> Koen__: that's "reference points"
17:54:27 <Koen__> should I take your word for it??
17:55:14 <fizzie> (Add the word "sign" to some suitable place in the preceding.)
17:55:17 <Koen__> so is that about global warming?
17:55:43 <fizzie> It's more about how winter is too cold up here. :p
17:56:15 <oerjan> Koen__: no. it's about how in finland your general well-being and mood strongly varies according to season, and how to help that some. (this also applies to norway.)
17:56:23 <fizzie> See e.g. leftmost picture about the social wellbeing as a function of the season.
17:56:51 <fizzie> (Winter is on the left side.)
17:56:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure what scale it's calibrated on.
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17:59:57 <olsner> it appears to be a 0-5 scale
18:00:19 <fizzie> olsner: No, the outer border has a value of 1, based on the <--> in the first image.
18:00:22 <fizzie> (I note that in the last figure it goes briefly over 1, which doesn't sound necessarily all too good either.)
18:00:45 <olsner> it's also written in slightly archaic swedish .. but maybe that's just normal finnishswedish
18:01:29 <fizzie> I don't think it's very normal.
18:02:23 <fizzie> There was also this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131014-hatler.jpg
18:03:35 <fizzie> olsner: I think it's referring to "perussuomalaiset", our populist-nationalist party.
18:03:59 <fizzie> "True Finns", vaguely translated.
18:04:21 <fizzie> "perus" meaning mostly "basic, elementary" and so on.
18:04:31 <fizzie> (And "aito" meaning "genuine, real".)
18:05:31 <fizzie> I don't think they're terribly popular in the region.
18:06:15 <oerjan> in a couple days norway's populist-nationalist party (who like to deny they're as bad as those of some other countries) is getting into government.
18:06:36 <oerjan> should be interesting.
18:07:00 <fizzie> The Finnish one got 19.05% of the vote in the parliamentary election of 2011.
18:07:59 <fizzie> But they did not get into the government, though the negotiations were complicated, IIRC.
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18:09:45 <fizzie> At least it took a long time (and six parties) to form it.
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18:10:47 <oerjan> ours ended up with only two parties, but two others supporting it, and not joining because they don't want to be _too_ associated with the formerly mentioned populist party.
18:10:49 <fizzie> Incidentally, their score in Ekenäs (corresponding to that overall 19.05% figure) was just 6.4%.
18:12:13 <fizzie> I have a feeling Perussuomalaiset has been sort of slowly losing ground since that 19% win. Though it's not like I've been following any polls or anything.
18:12:57 <oerjan> our parliament only has sev... no wait, the greens got their single representative. our parliament has eight parties.
18:14:02 <ais523> oerjan: we have a single green party representative in the UK parliament too
18:14:04 <fizzie> We have 8. Plus the mandatory single representative from Åland, which I think is not in any of those.
18:14:06 <ais523> which is notable because it's FPTP
18:14:12 <oerjan> and getting as many as six of them to agree would be very unlikely.
18:14:13 <Taneb> House of Commons has 11
18:14:26 <Taneb> Plus 5-9 independents
18:14:31 <fizzie> 10 representatives from the Green League.
18:14:35 <FireFly> sometimes it feels like our parliament has two parties
18:14:36 <ais523> and thus, they had to put their best candidate into the constituency they thought had the best chance of winning, and campaign really massively
18:14:40 <Taneb> Sinn Fein as a rule don't take their seats
18:14:42 <fizzie> Down from 15 mostly due to Perussuomalaiset.
18:15:02 <ais523> Taneb: they refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen, or something like that
18:15:06 <ais523> so they're not allowed in
18:15:34 <ais523> the allegiance requirement seems a little ridiculous, really
18:15:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, pass it to elliott, maybe?
18:15:57 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, idk, but it's kind of traditional
18:16:12 <oerjan> the greens were _hoping_ for more, but they got slightly below the necessary cutoff to get fully proportional representation country-wide.
18:16:23 <Taneb> @ask elliott Can you tell Phantom_Hoover whether you want to join in this succession fortress?
18:17:12 <oerjan> without that, they have to win in a single county, which is not as hard as fptp but still much worse than getting above the cutoff.
18:17:41 <oerjan> (wait, not win, but get among that county's directly selected representatives)
18:18:03 <oerjan> all the other parties made the cutoff, although some barely.
18:18:14 <Bike> FireFly: first past the post.
18:18:20 <oerjan> FireFly: first past the post, the system used in the UK and US.
18:18:35 <Bike> the system usually results in a two-party system.
18:19:57 <Taneb> oerjan, I think the US uses an even stupider system, but I'm not sure
18:20:25 <fizzie> We have a set of 15 electoral districts too, and I think it's fully independent of all the other organizational hierarchies. (I believe it's more or less based on the old notion of "provinces", but those were reduced to six in 1997, and abolished entirely in 2010 and replaced with some other subdivisions, like the "regional state administrative agencies".)
18:20:26 <ais523> I think the US's system is theoretically slightly better than the UK's, but the political makeup makes it work worse
18:20:28 <Bike> you mean te electoral college? that's just something before the fptp
18:20:38 <fizzie> (I'm sure there is a good reason for all this.)
18:21:07 <kmc> it should be noted that Austrialia has preference voting and is a strongly two-party country
18:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> so btw while we're talking about voting systems, i'm a bit confused by arrow's theorem
18:21:17 <ais523> the US effectively elects three governmental bodies (congress, house of representatives, president)
18:21:23 <kmc> preference voting may be necessary for third parties but it's not sufficient
18:21:23 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: what about it?
18:21:31 <ais523> each of which uses different weightings
18:21:44 <Bike> ais523: by "congress" do you mean the senate...?
18:21:44 <oerjan> ais523: i recall reading on wikipedia about the mess when the uk got their first openly atheist MP
18:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i think there was one condition that didn't seem very important
18:22:01 <Bike> because "congress" usually includes the representatives
18:22:15 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the tiebreaker thing?
18:23:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the four conditions, IIRC, are "must be deterministic and always produce a result", "cannot just ignore most of the data", "removing votes from a candidate cannot hurt their chances", "if everyone prefers candidate A to candidate B, then candidate A beats candidate B"
18:23:26 <ais523> oh, and "at least three candidates"
18:23:38 <ais523> FPTP fails the fourth condition
18:24:09 <ais523> err, I think I misworded the fourth condition
18:24:12 <fizzie> Oh, and we use D'Hondt for seat allocation here.
18:24:15 <Bike> oh and re the senate i think it's interesting that originally senators weren't popularly elected
18:24:21 <ais523> or rather, got it slightly wrong
18:24:33 <ais523> Bike: I'm really upset that the House of Lords in the UK is being moved to being elected
18:24:38 <ais523> I preferred it as hereditary
18:24:48 <Bike> are you a monarchist
18:24:53 <ais523> the hereditary Lords were generally too rich to bribe, and too apolitical to really bargain
18:24:59 <ais523> err, political bargaining, that is
18:25:07 <ais523> elections are much easier to manipulate, as are MPs
18:25:24 <ais523> so the Lords were an important sanity check, and they can't actually pass any laws by themselves anyway
18:25:34 <Bike> i can assure you that having a lot of money is no obstacle to wanting more money
18:26:15 <Taneb> Bike, it does make the bribes seem smaller
18:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> also p. sure you can have a hereditary peerage and be broke
18:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> also confused at your assertion that the landed gentry are apolitical
18:28:05 <ais523> perhaps I'm really misinformed
18:28:09 <ais523> it wouldn't be the first time
18:28:56 * oerjan applies some acetone to ais523's glasses to remove the rose paint
18:29:35 <Bike> so i just checked and it looks like there's a hereditary peer in UKIP
18:29:47 <fizzie> Incidentally, Finland had an electoral college for the presidential election from 1919 to 1988.
18:30:01 <ais523> Bike: given the conservative bias of the Lords, that's believable
18:30:28 <ais523> UKIP are basically just beyond the Conservatives, to the right, with the /really/ objectionable parties beyond them
18:30:44 <ais523> I consider UKIP mostly just deluded, rather than particularly evil
18:30:58 <Taneb> UKIP's the party of people reading the newspaper and grumbling about things used to be better
18:31:23 -!- NihilistDandy has quit.
18:31:24 <fizzie> (Also we had a single president for 1956-1982.)
18:32:21 <ais523> hmm… the UK doesn't have any term limits, but it's basically impossible to stay in parliament more than 2 terms (I think Tony Blair was the only person who ever managed it)
18:32:39 <ais523> people normally get fed up of the Prime Minister pretty quickly
18:32:48 <fizzie> "After nine political parties supported Kekkonen's candidacy [for his fourth term, after the third term had already been extended by a special law] in the 1978 Presidential election, including the Social Democratic, Centre and National Coalition parties, no serious rivals remained. He humiliated his opponents by not appearing in televised presidential debates and went on to win 259 out of the 300 electoral college votes, with his nearest rival, Raino West
18:32:50 <Taneb> How many terms was Thatcher?
18:32:59 <fizzie> It was a strange time, AIUI.
18:33:06 <oerjan> hm norway had electoral college for electing _parliament_ until 1905
18:33:19 <Bike> anyway, originally senators weren't hereditary, because AMERICA, they were just appointed by state representatives
18:34:08 <Bike> dunno how it got to being popular election actually, maybe that's an interesting story
18:35:00 <fizzie> "From December 1980 onwards, Kekkonen suffered from an undisclosed disease that appeared to affect his brain functions, sometimes leading to delusional thoughts. He had begun to suffer occasional brief memory lapses as early as the autumn of 1972, which became more frequent during the late 1970s." <- best choice for a president?
18:35:35 <oerjan> hey it worked for reagan
18:35:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:36:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:36:42 <Bike> reagan wasn't alzheimeric until after his presidency, probably. completely in control of his faculties. just a shit.
18:37:06 <Taneb> ais523, Thatcher managed three terms
18:37:34 <coppro> and if you go back farther, there are longer-serving PMs
18:37:38 <oerjan> also norway didn't get proportional voting until 1919, which was basically because the (then communist) labor party looked like it might get a majority under the old system.
18:38:49 <fizzie> I don't think we have any term limits for any other offices than the president.
18:39:15 <oerjan> they managed to get a majority under the new one too, but not before turning anti-communist.
18:39:28 <fizzie> The aforementioned Kekkonen did four consecutive terms as the prime minister before going on to be president for all those years.
18:39:43 <coppro> ais523: are the Lords actually going to be elected, or is it more banging around the buck?
18:40:08 <fizzie> Or maybe that was less than four.
18:40:13 <ais523> coppro: I think Labour wanted to make them elected, but they aren't in power at the moment
18:40:21 <ais523> currently the new ones are appointed, I think
18:40:25 <ais523> by the current government
18:41:11 <coppro> An elected Senate is being seriously contemplated here, but currently two different courts are trying to sort out whether or not that would even be legal without a constitutional amendment
18:41:21 -!- carado has joined.
18:41:30 <coppro> I'm opposed; I like an appointed Senate for much the same reason you like your Lords
18:41:47 <ais523> yeah, appointed seems better than electing both chambers
18:41:57 <coppro> I would rather abolition than election
18:42:08 <ais523> or at least, using the same mechanism for every chamber tends to be a bad idea because there are no real distinctions between them
18:42:44 <coppro> we do lack the safety valve of flooding the Senate as can be done with the Lords, but this hasn't been a practical problem because the Senate has never stood in the way of a budget like happened in 1910
18:43:08 <ais523> coppro: my brain's insisting on interpreting that "flooding" as literally filling the building with water
18:43:26 <coppro> I would not be opposed to making the Senate's veto on appropriations bills merely suspensory, but it should remain absolute on other legislation because otherwise it becomes toothless like the modern Lords
18:43:27 <oerjan> until a few years ago, norway had the ridiculous system of dividing the parliament into two chambers _after_ election.
18:43:46 <fizzie> Huh, the current Finnish six-party government seems to have a party cardinality (is that a term?) equal to the maximum in Finnish history; and the previous six-party one was back in 1945.
18:43:51 <ais523> the situation in the US, anyway, appears to be that the budget has a majority in every chamber but in one of them, the Speaker refuses to allow it to be debated on
18:44:31 <coppro> ais523: there's some informal rule int he Republican party that nothing goes forth to the chamber unless it is supported by a majority of the Republican caucus
18:44:47 <oerjan> the members were elected unitedly, but divided themselves into Lagting and Odelsting, with different responsibilities. (There were also plenal sessions.)
18:44:48 <coppro> this is plain dumb stupid and it amazes me that the Speaker has that much control
18:45:19 <ais523> coppro: well it'd work in Guild Council, if the Independent Chairs refused to allow something on the schedule, it'd require a 2/3 majority to overturn that
18:45:40 <ais523> and the Republicans easily control 1/3 of any chamber they want to, apart from the President
18:46:00 <coppro> most of the assemblies I've participated in feature the assumption that every member has a right to bring something forth for consideration
18:46:30 <coppro> the only slight exception to that is the Senate of the University, where a bylaw amendment must be approved to be placed on the agenda by the Executive Committee, but any member of that committee has a right to bring something forth
18:46:32 <ais523> same here, they're not supposed to unilaterally bar things from the agenda
18:47:00 <coppro> it's a hard rule though; even if something is left off the agenda, there is always opportunity to bring it forward under new business
18:47:03 <ais523> just need a proposer and a seconder to get them to add things, who don't even need voting rights (they can just be consituents)
18:48:37 <fizzie> LDC (Linguistic Data Consortium, an "open consortium" hosted by University of Pennsylvania) is not answering my emails; I was wondering if this could be blamed on your shutdown too somehow. (I guess not, since it's a private university, and it'd be a state thing anyway.)
18:48:54 <ais523> hmm, imagine if it only needed two constituents to introduce a bill in the UK parliament
18:49:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:52:04 <fizzie> (Also I think it's a bit confusing that there's a private University of Pennsylvania and a public Pennsylvania State University; and I think quite a lot of similar pairings.)
18:53:12 <Bike> i attend washington state university. there is a university of washington which is also public. there is also a private Washington University on the other side of the country.
18:53:14 <oerjan> i seem to recall washington university and university of washington were different entities
18:53:16 <ais523> fizzie: it's bad enough talking about the University of Birmingham to people when there's also a Birmingham City University, and Aston University which many people know is in Birmingham (and might assume would be referred to as Birmingham University colloquially)
18:53:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, wow you've had a tumblr for like a whole year now
18:53:33 <Bike> oerjan: ur welcome
18:54:17 * oerjan spent a half year at UofW in 1996
18:54:25 <Bike> funny story, this state was going to be called Columbia but they thought that would get confusing what with the district of columbia.
18:54:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:54:40 <fizzie> ais523: Admittedly Aalto University (where I work) used to be the Helsinki University of Technology in English, and it *was* occasionally confused with University of Helsinki. (The Finnish names were completely different.)
18:55:01 <ais523> Bike: well people mostly aren't confused about the difference between Washington state and Washington DC
18:55:09 <Bike> ais523: i can assure you that they are.
18:55:28 <Bike> we sell t shirts joking about it.
18:55:41 <oerjan> Bike: is that why the canadian one has "british" in front
18:55:43 <ais523> OTOH, New York city and New York state are quite easy to confuse
18:55:54 <ais523> due to having identical names and being in much the same physical location
18:56:12 <Bike> oerjan: i think so, yeah. adding to this problem, i'm originally from a city called Vancouver.
18:56:24 <Bike> well not "originally" but whatever
18:56:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:56:39 <Taneb> ais523, one of my friends thought that Washington was in British Columbia
18:56:55 <Bike> ais523: i usually call NYC "NYC" now, seems to work ok
18:56:56 <oerjan> where i lived before, for a while someone had put up a large map of british columbia on the wall
18:57:15 <ais523> for any particular reason?
18:57:25 * ais523 wonders how many people think British Columbia is in the UK
18:57:37 <oerjan> (well someone had, and for a while after they left it staid there)
18:57:42 <Bike> "well it is in the commonwealth, right"
18:58:04 <olsner> it's somewhere around Colombia, right?
18:58:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:58:17 <oerjan> i don't know who put it there. i'm not quite sure if it was there already when i moved in.
18:58:22 <fizzie> ais523: Or in South America.
18:58:36 <fizzie> Oh, I missed olsner doing that alraedy.
18:58:41 <olsner> oerjan: british columbia was probably wherever it was before you moved in
18:58:48 <Bike> the colombia thing comes up too. i may have lived in the most ambiguously named part of the country
18:59:13 <Bike> vancouver (not BC), washington (not DC), on the columbia (not colombia, not british)
18:59:22 <fizzie> I like Wikipedia's Columbia disambiguation page. "Not to be confused with Colombia (disambiguation) or Colombia."
19:00:05 <Bike> i don't think i've ever actually been to BC. it seems like a nice enough place but i only know it from twin peaks and a HRW report
19:00:14 <olsner> there used to be a United States of Colombia too
19:00:38 <fizzie> olsner: And the prehistoric supercontinent of Columbia, I'm sure people confuse it with that a lot too.
19:00:43 <Bike> olsner: well mexico is the United States of Mexico but nobody seems to mind.
19:01:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:01:42 <Bike> people get way more antsy about "america" being used to refer to the US. which makes sense imo.
19:01:50 <fizzie> United States of Mexico and New Mexico of United States.
19:01:59 <Koen__> Taneb: could you explain to me again how Real Fast Nora'Hair programs are applied to their input? since input is text, but functions are lambda abstractions
19:02:35 <Taneb> Koen__, the input is first transformed into a stream of bits
19:03:20 <oerjan> stream of bytes, actually
19:03:59 <Taneb> Then, it transforms each byte into its church numeral representation
19:04:01 <fizzie> Don't forget the step of thanking oerjan, it's crucial.
19:04:16 <HackEgo> olist 924: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
19:04:22 <oerjan> well i _did_ make the interpreter, and steal Lazy K's IO model.
19:04:48 <Taneb> Then, convert = APPLY APPLY LAMBDA ZERO [next byte of input] [convert(remainder of input)]
19:05:44 <Taneb> In general, I think oerjan knows my two halfway decent languages better than I do
19:06:47 <ais523> my brain insisted on parsing "APPLY APPLY LAMBDA ZERO" as a Unicode character name
19:06:47 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:06:57 <fizzie> `unicode APPLY APPLY LAMBDA ZERO
19:08:05 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download, the language where EVERY program is a unicode character
19:08:07 <fizzie> `run unicode 'FUNCTION APPLICATION' 'FUNCTION APPLICATION' 'GREEK CAPITAL LETTER LAMDA' 'DIGIT ZERO' # close approximation
19:08:32 -!- Bike has joined.
19:08:33 <fizzie> Sadly, the function application cannot be seen.
19:08:33 <oerjan> hm wait Taneb had stolen the IO model already.
19:10:18 <Taneb> oerjan, when I was writing it, my mind was going "Hmm, what's a bit like this but with IO? I know! Lazy K!"
19:15:34 -!- muskrat has joined.
19:16:21 <oerjan> fizzie: hm actually in irssi i see the function application by missing the previous space.
19:17:29 <fizzie> oerjan: You see DEAD PEOPLE.
19:17:52 <fizzie> `unicode SHAVIAN LETTER DEAD
19:18:12 <oerjan> the dead look strangely square to me
19:18:13 <fizzie> `unicode BAMUM LETTER PHASE-E PA PEOPLE
19:18:25 <fizzie> HackEgo: That is so a real character, you charlatan.
19:18:47 <fizzie> Somebody ought to update UnicodeData in that thing.
19:19:46 <Taneb> `unicode MULTI-OCULAR O
19:19:50 <Taneb> `unicode MULTIOCULAR O
19:20:16 <Bike> `unicode CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O
19:20:29 <Bike> as opposed to PHOENICIAN LETTER MULTIOCULAR O, probably
19:20:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/unicode
19:20:55 <FireFly> Oh, there's a python module for that? That's handy
19:21:27 <fizzie> The connection attempts to port 4679 (from a random Finnish DSL IP) continue on even though there's no Skypes open here any longer. I wonder what on earth is up with that. There's a new try every six seconds, always to the same destination port. For hours and hours. And there's no conntrack entries related to that IP.
19:22:22 <oerjan> someone's trying to get out a "HELP I'M TRAPPED IN A SKYPE FACTORY"
19:23:05 <olsner> maybe it's the ghost of fungot, trying to reunite with the bot of fungot
19:23:05 <fungot> olsner: and because the only common aspect of all those bp pics where i have to wear glasses manage to find them. but that wasn't right.
19:23:24 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know anything about this?
19:23:24 <fungot> fizzie: what do you see how such artificial restrictions can help in learning. use what you want
19:23:30 * FireFly tries to imagine fungot with glasses
19:23:31 <fungot> FireFly: anyone know a fast algorithm in c ( in guile) to register funcs to be called
19:23:35 <fizzie> fungot: Stop being cryptic and answer the question.
19:23:35 <fungot> fizzie: " the replacement may contain the special character to refer to one symbol with two different formattings ( fnord that can be translated to
19:26:54 <shachaf> ais523: You were here when I `olisted. :-(
19:27:25 <ais523> shachaf: yeah but I wasn't reading
19:27:35 <fizzie> Welp, I dumped what it tries to say with netcat, and it seems it actually is just some worm propagation attempt.
19:27:46 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
19:27:48 <shachaf> ais523: Maybe we should add you to `olist so that you get notified, then?
19:27:57 <fizzie> A "GET /product.xml HTTP/1.0" request to port 4679.
19:27:59 <shachaf> Otherwise I get notified for no reason and it's annoying.
19:28:14 <ais523> because I don't /want/ to be notified
19:28:21 <ais523> you could just remove yourself from the list if you don't want to be notified
19:28:36 <shachaf> OK, so why are you `olisting yourself?
19:28:41 <shachaf> I want to get notified once per update.
19:28:42 <Bike> it's always more idiotic list etiquette
19:28:44 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin/*list': No such file or directory
19:29:09 <fizzie> Someone's just going to revert that, it's not like it'd accomplish anything.
19:29:25 <fizzie> Then it's a HackEgo edit war all over again.
19:30:13 -!- shachaf has left.
19:30:33 <Bike> this channel has the most amazing drama
19:30:43 <fizzie> For some very strange values of "amazing".
19:30:47 <Phantom__Hoover> does shachaf just make a hobby of becoming pointlessly forceful about things
19:30:57 <ais523> fizzie: I think Bike's amazed that it's a drama
19:31:08 <Phantom__Hoover> the problem now is that i have deleted bin/list, and i like bin/list
19:31:21 <fizzie> ais523: Admittedly I'd've expected some sort of a comedy too.
19:31:31 <Bike> i'm very good at finding comedy in stupid shit don't worry
19:32:16 <ais523> I guess my problem with the lists is that their intended function seems to be to notify people to not update the lists
19:32:45 <fizzie> I don't think there's anything unclear with their intended function.
19:33:03 <fizzie> Whether they work well or not.
19:34:34 <fizzie> Also it sounds reasonably reasonable (as far as anything in the list universe can be reasonable) that the people paying any attention to them and the people invoking them would be the same set.
19:35:04 <ais523> fizzie: well in that case the lists would never be used
19:35:07 -!- Bike_ has joined.
19:35:15 <ais523> if you're relying on the lists to let you know when the comic's available
19:35:16 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:35:21 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
19:35:25 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
19:35:27 <Phantom__Hoover> <ais523> I guess my problem with the lists is that their intended function seems to be to notify people to not update the lists
19:35:28 <ais523> you'd never check the comic to be able to announce the lists
19:35:45 <fizzie> ais523: People on the lists seem to be entirely capable of using them themselves.
19:35:48 <ais523> really, the set of people who benefit from the notification, and the set of people who /provide/ the notification, should be disjoint
19:36:07 <ais523> fizzie: more to the point, I noticed that the discussion thread was only on page 5
19:36:12 <Phantom__Hoover> my problem with the lists is that they are THE STUPIDEST THING EVER and yet a handful of people have latched onto them out of contrarianism or blissful naivete
19:36:16 <ais523> meaning that the comic was probably pretty new
19:36:29 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: what about `list? that was the stupidest thing ever /intentionally/
19:36:47 <Phantom__Hoover> <Phantom__Hoover> the problem now is that i have deleted bin/list, and i like bin/list
19:37:07 <fizzie> ais523: And they work just fine even if the sets are identical; then it's just a "you can do your semirandom poll of this comic right now" shortcut mechanism.
19:37:15 <Bike> i'd like to point out, as a neutral observer, that you are all terrible and stop stifling my ree speech
19:37:30 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: oh right, missed that first time
19:37:37 <fizzie> ais523: I mean, if you wanted efficiency out of it, you'd probably be using that RSS reader or whatnot.
19:37:50 <ais523> well in my case, I don't want to read it at work
19:38:01 <ais523> so I tend to check it whenever I'm bored and can read it
19:38:05 <ais523> as opposed to wanting to read it instantly
19:38:12 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, I find slist useful sometimes
19:38:28 <fizzie> It'd be quite simple just to opt out of the whole list mechanism then, instead of willfully adding multiplicate listings.
19:38:34 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
19:38:52 <ais523> fizzie: right, I thought I was being useful via adding listings, though
19:39:06 <fizzie> ais523: I think well-meaning people could disagree on that.
19:39:12 <fizzie> (On the third hand, it's all very stupid.)
19:40:08 <ais523> I guess my problem is that I don't see the circumstances under which the list would ever be listed
19:40:33 <Bike> i do not have an emoticon to show my current expression
19:41:58 <Bike> way ahead of you
19:42:07 <fizzie> ais523: I think that's because you think people either (a) poll/feed the comic with some other mechanism and do not look at listings, or (b) never poll the comic independently and only look at it when it gets listed, while the "in-practice" scenario is (c) that all/most people on the list poll the comic at semirandom intervals anyway, and the list just shortcuts that by notifying the involved people, and thereby shortens the mean lag between update and se
19:42:26 <fizzie> (Where's my splitlong.pl again?)
19:42:58 <fizzie> But I'm certainly no list expert, I'm not even on any; that's just the sort of feeling I've gotten from observing it.
19:44:00 <olsner> why are we even discussing lists?
19:45:13 <ais523> olsner: shachaf just ragequit the channel over them
19:46:41 <olsner> what's the list a list of again?
19:46:56 <Bike> people who have used `list
19:47:23 <olsner> hmm, that doesn't sound entirely useful
19:47:45 <oerjan> fizzie's (c) fits me, anyway :P
19:49:56 * oerjan wonders if ais523 is assuming people are predictable.
19:51:10 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
19:51:57 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:53:30 -!- shachaf has joined.
19:53:52 <shachaf> I didn't "ragequit" the channel.
19:54:09 <shachaf> I joined the channel in the first place to talk to kmc, and he wasn't here anyway.
19:54:56 <fizzie> I built rust and that's kmc's fault entirely.
19:54:57 <shachaf> Then I was mostly idling in the channel. But then people started mentioning my name without actually communicating anything to me. So I left.
19:55:03 <fizzie> (Still missing a project.)
19:55:38 <shachaf> For what it's worth, I only thought to check `olist after joining the channel. And I checked the logs before saying it, to make sure I wouldn't be double-notifying people.
19:56:30 <shachaf> Anyway, fizzie's (c) is correct.
19:57:05 -!- shachaf has left.
19:58:35 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't win anything.
19:59:13 <olsner> manual polling is so web 1.0, subscribe to the feed already
19:59:55 <oerjan> i once subscribed to the feed and it somehow broke horribly, reshowing me old comics all the time.
20:00:02 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover Phantom__Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot shikhin SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
20:00:20 <oerjan> that was before the lists.
20:01:22 <nooodl> proudly not on the list
20:01:37 <FireFly> It seems like being on the list would be annoying
20:01:45 <Bike> it hurts my pride.
20:02:03 <FireFly> I'm curious how fungot and HackEgo came to be on the list
20:02:04 <fungot> FireFly: because 2.6 or even 2.4 is too large
20:02:16 <ais523> FireFly: people telling them to `echo or whatever
20:02:26 <FireFly> I thought the bots around here had blacklists for other bots
20:02:36 <fizzie> ais523: Also the listification mechanism had some bugs.
20:02:45 <fizzie> ais523: Picking "most-recent" and not "most-recent-lister".
20:02:57 <ais523> `list now checks the logs
20:02:58 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover Phantom__Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot shikhin SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
20:03:14 <fizzie> Yes, but it checked them wrong. Some of those could be carryovers.
20:03:24 <ais523> no, I think it greps the logs every time
20:03:28 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
20:03:51 <ais523> that fixes FireFly's issue, too; `list works even if HackEgo doesn't see the original `list
20:04:42 <ais523> and glogbot doesn't have an ignore list
20:05:02 <fizzie> It was a plain "tail -1" before that grep was added.
20:05:02 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:05:08 <fizzie> And the names weren't reset when it was, is my point.
20:05:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:05:37 <olsner> hmm, so there is no way to get off the list once you're on it?
20:05:56 <fizzie> olsner: Just the obvious manual sed ways.
20:06:10 <fizzie> Though if you do it wrong, drama may ensue.
20:06:39 <olsner> you mean something like edit all your `lists out of the irclogs?
20:07:07 <ais523> I guess you could edit bin/list to contain an exception for you
20:07:28 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, *that's* what you meant by "every time", I'm just too slow.
20:08:11 <fizzie> I'd think that will eventually get too slow.
20:08:24 <fizzie> And there's that year limit.
20:08:31 <zzo38> The other way would be to modify it in the client-side
20:08:57 <zzo38> Which in some cases may be preferable (but not necessarily all cases)
20:08:58 <FireFly> That doesn't really remove you from the list
20:16:36 <fizzie> The port-4679 hammering still continues, even though I accepted one connection to slurp out what it was trying to say.
20:16:39 <fizzie> If it really is some sort of a worm propagation attempt, it seems ridiculously ineffective.
20:18:55 <fizzie> 4679 *is* listed as "MGE UPS Supervision" service, and there's some references to "http://connectups-1713ae.domain.com:4679/product.xml" in the webs re UPS management, so it sounds like a reasonable assumption it's trying to find vulnerable UPSes.
20:19:06 <fizzie> But it keeps trying this same IP over and over again.
20:19:28 <fizzie> Maybe someone has typed an IP address wrong somewhere.
20:27:41 <fizzie> Tried to connect to source:80 in case it's someone I could contact, but a GET / got a "HTTP/1.0 501 Not Implemented" and a malformed request got some incomprehensible jumble of bytes.
20:28:47 <fizzie> Not seeing any particular patterns in the returned bytes.
20:30:19 <olsner> weird combination of things to send though... a well-formed HTTP response in some cases and random binary data in other cases
20:30:55 <fizzie> I think the HTTP response is just to discourage HTTP clients, since whatever it is for reals, it *is* in port 80.
20:31:08 <fizzie> And the random binary data would be for the actual functionality, which I'm less sure of.
20:31:20 <olsner> maybe the binary data is just gzipped or something
20:31:36 <fizzie> It doesn't have any headers according to 'file', so it's not a gzip stream.
20:31:47 <fizzie> Perhaps it wouldn't notice a raw DEFLATE stream, though.
20:31:54 <fizzie> I guess I could check that out.
20:32:07 <fizzie> When it comes to general portscans, I sometimes wonder if I should email the abuse@ address in the WHOIS, but this is so bizarre.
20:32:17 <fizzie> (Then again, at the ISP they'd at least know which customer it is.)
20:34:00 <olsner> I wonder if wireshark is good at autodetecting protocols
20:36:17 <fizzie> It just said "Continuation or non-HTTP traffic" about it.
20:36:33 <olsner> I guess it assumes HTTP due to being on port 80
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20:36:53 <fizzie> Guess so; the overall label is HTTP, and I don't know how to tell it to ignore that and re-autodetect.
20:38:03 <fizzie> There's a "decode as", but that's no help.
20:38:22 <fizzie> I can apparently disable the HTTP decoder.
20:38:45 <fizzie> In which case it's just "TCP".
20:38:58 <olsner> isn't "decode as" the one that lets you select which protocol decoder(s) to use?
20:39:21 <fizzie> Well, no, it lets you select a decoder, as far as I could tell. Maybe I didn't look at it too closely.
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20:39:46 <fizzie> Anyway, disabling HTTP just got plain TCP, so I'd guess it doesn't autodetect anything sensible out of it.
20:42:55 <fizzie> More news: the source has port 4679 open too, and replies to a GET /protocol.xml HTTP/1.0 (the thing it sends out) with a |
20:43:01 <fizzie> HTTP/1.0 404 Not Found.
20:43:13 <fizzie> "Error 404 - File read error"
20:43:33 <ais523> fizzie: any idea why people keep on asking my web server for pages on other sites?
20:43:46 <ais523> some sort of attempt to exploit a vulnerability?
20:45:01 <olsner> sounds like trying to use you as a proxy
20:45:31 <fizzie> ais523: Most likely guess, yes.
20:45:31 <fizzie> Ooh, GET / on port 4679 gives a long web page built entirely out of <!-- Fix IE8+ compatibilities issues --> and <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="emc2.css"> and lots of javascript.
20:45:31 <fizzie> I guess that should be enough to identify the device.
20:45:31 <fizzie> (Also the /product.xml request it was trying to *send* has an User-Agent of Emc2.)
20:45:33 <ais523> my serve responds by ignoring the domain and trying to find a page at the same path
20:46:00 <fizzie> I'd need some sort of a throwaway VM to look at this thing in a browser, and I don't have one set up. :/
20:47:01 <olsner> EMC could refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMC_Corporation
20:47:26 <fizzie> If I send it the exact same request it's trying to send to me (also for /product.xml but with proper User-Agent and so on) it replies back with <PRODUCT_INFO name="Intelligent Power Manager" type="Windows NT/6.01.01" version="1.28.087" protocol="XML.V4">.
20:48:16 <fizzie> "Intelligent Power® Manager Software - Eaton’s Intelligent Power Manager software enables you to --"
20:48:36 <fizzie> I guess that's what it is, and it's trying to connect to an UPS.
20:48:53 <fizzie> Or some other sort of a power-related sensor.
20:49:23 <fizzie> Maybe I *should* in fact email abuse@ then; they could email the customer in question.
20:49:32 <fizzie> Though it's a regular home dialup, as far as I can tell.
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20:52:43 <fizzie> I'm sure they don't have anything better to do.
20:54:57 <Taneb> My god this anime is hilarious
20:58:42 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I actually have been laughing at it
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20:59:00 <mnoqy> in a good way or a bad way
20:59:02 <Taneb> It's about a dark lord who finds himself in Tokyo without his magic powers
20:59:15 <Taneb> He winds up working at McDonalds to make ends meet
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21:00:26 <Taneb> It's laughing with it
21:00:39 <Taneb> I just said at because I never really liked the phrase "laughing with it"
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21:04:39 <fizzie> I don't normally monitor incoming-but-dropped connections at all closely; it's kind of a funny coincidence that the one time I do, I get a nice puzzle like the current one.
21:05:18 <mnoqy> maybe they're actually all like that
21:06:13 <fizzie> Well, I did it also during the day at work, and nothing seemed to be happening, except for some showers of SSH port knocking and a few Microsoft SQL server connection attempts. Certainly nothing sustained like this.
21:07:32 <fizzie> (Those are still going on, interspersed with the UPS guy.)
21:08:53 <fizzie> MSSQL from "CHINANET jiangsu province network", telnet probes from Turkey, Lithuania, Slovakia; that's all very boring.
21:09:50 <fizzie> Hey, the UPS guy stopped.
21:10:18 <fizzie> Wonder if the abuse@ email had something to do with it.
21:11:57 -!- augur has joined.
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21:13:48 <fizzie> (Also a quick poke backwards didn't seem to reach the source at all. Hope they didn't *disconnect* him/her/it; that seems a bit drastic.)
21:14:38 <fizzie> Networks: they so funny.
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21:21:19 <fizzie> I guess the abuse folks might have a "disconnect first, ask questions later" policy. Or else the timing was just coincidental. (The connection attempts stopped about five minutes after sending the email.)
21:23:26 <fizzie> Or possibly even a "disconnect first [based on email subject line], read complaints later" policy.
21:27:20 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I have to do some prepare (including to ask things of the kingdom) before continuing on the next quest. I have some ideas; tell me if you think I missed something? * Ask for a spare space on a shelf to store my books and stuff I don't need to carry to there * Request a boat or boat ticket * Summon a familiar * Study the Calimsham some more * Find religious ties in Church of Gxxyuxihuvxi in both cities * Try to
21:27:39 <zzo38> Did this message get cut off? There should be seven asterisks.
21:29:07 <zzo38> * Try to ask father's friend if he is a speaker in dreams * Get the Calimsham advisor and others who may need to come
21:29:11 <zzo38> There, I fixed it.
21:29:59 <zzo38> What things did I miss?
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21:44:34 <fizzie> `run perl -e '($x, $y, $z) = ("inf", +"inf", 0+"inf"); $x++; $y++; $z++; print "$x $y $z";' # nasty?
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21:50:19 <zzo38> fizzie: I think that is understandable to me. Why are you using this now?
21:51:04 <fizzie> I'm not, I just saw it on the Perl channel.
21:51:41 <fizzie> And it's understandable, but arguably a bit inelegant, because Perl in general likes to pretend there's no difference between a scalar that's a number and a scalar that's a string.
21:51:59 <FireFly> it's the middle one that annoys me
21:52:08 <zzo38> It doesn't looks too much inelegant to me, although I am not a Perl programmer so I wouldn't know so much
21:52:19 <FireFly> I'd expect +"inf" to force the number-y behaviour
21:52:21 <zzo38> It seems fine to me, although I can understand why you might not like the middle one.
21:52:40 <fizzie> FireFly: That's what I sort of expected too, coming from JavaScript.
21:52:45 <zzo38> In case you want unary + to make it numeric.
21:53:32 <fizzie> `run perl -e '($x, $y) = (+"inf", -"inf"); $x++; $y++; print "$x $y";' # and unary - does, of course.
21:54:52 <zzo38> Probably it would make sense if unary + to make it numeric, since it can be meaning something then.
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22:04:32 <zzo38> It doesn't really annoy me so much that unary + doesn't do that though.
22:05:23 <fizzie> `run perl -e '($x, $y) = ('inf', 'inf'); $z = $y + 0; $x++; $y++; $z++; print "$x $y $z";' # then there's this
22:05:28 <fizzie> Performing the calculation $y + 0 goes and turns $y into "more numeric" even when the result is assigned to something else.
22:05:31 <fizzie> `run perl -e '($x, $y) = (0+'inf', 0+'inf'); $z = $y . ""; $x++; $y++; $z++; print "$x $y $z";' # but not the other way around
22:06:12 <fizzie> Doing $y . "" does not alter the "numericalness" of $y, even though the result in $z is "less numeric".
22:07:29 <zzo38> That "$z = $y + 0" causing such things looks like strange, although I think that many things in Perl are looking like strange.
22:07:49 <fizzie> If you like to be nasty about it, you could even say that $y + 0 has an (observable) side effect that modifies $y.
22:08:23 <fizzie> Admittedly the interchangeability of numbers and strings means it usually doesn't matter.
22:09:14 <zzo38> And that it works only one way and not the other way around, just seems like silly, however (although maybe there is a proper reason for it).
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22:09:58 <fizzie> I believe (I'm not much of a Perl programmer either) the reason has uncomfortably much to do with the internals of Perl scalars.
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23:05:23 <zzo38> I do program in AWK, though, and I think there are some similiary to Perl.
23:06:03 <olsner> IINM, perl is supposed to have been based on awk
23:10:05 <zzo38> But there are two features I would like to see added into AWK: One is a command to tell the program to receive a line of input (so it matches against all patterns in the program just as if it is from the normal input), and the other is a \ operator to read matched parts of a regular expression used as a boolean and was true.
23:11:03 <zzo38> In the second case an example might be: /^[^0-9]*([0-9])*/{print \1}
23:13:41 <zzo38> In this case it would just output the first digit available in each line of input, if they have any digits.
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23:17:23 <fizzie> I've wanted the latter feature too. (Generally ended up writing in Perl instead then.)
23:20:10 <fizzie> perl -ane and perl -ape are somewhat close to awk in that they do an automatic loop and split, though patterns still need to be written as ifs.
23:20:35 <fizzie> (Easy to do both those features then, though.)
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23:46:25 <zzo38> I still like AWK though, and think adding two such features like I describe may improve it.
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23:51:03 <kmc> -- Larry Wall, 1987
23:52:36 <zzo38> My other opinion of AWK is that a few features of GNU AWK (such as gettext) should be moved to external plugins instead.
23:53:16 <zzo38> kmc: What about Larry Wall, 1987?
23:53:25 <kmc> what about him indeed
23:54:10 <zzo38> I don't know, that's why I asked.
23:54:42 <Bike> the idea is that larry wall said "I still like AWK though, and think [..]", in 1987
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23:56:39 <Bike> the contnuation of this idea is that it lead to perl
23:58:07 <kmc> the idea is that adding features to Awk is a slippery slope to Perl
23:59:39 <zzo38> It may have done, but there should be a better way.
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01:03:12 <Sgeo> help im scared
01:03:28 <Sgeo> A deploy of my code tonight
01:03:40 <Sgeo> If it breaks stuff my boss would be really annoyed probably
01:10:05 <kmc> how well-tested is it?
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01:10:41 <Sgeo> I tested the code path that were easy to test (maybe 2), and some random person in Colorado accidentally tested a trickier code path
01:11:03 <olsner> three code paths! that's three more than I usually test
01:11:30 <Sgeo> But my main concern is more performance, and I really don't know how to test that
01:12:49 <olsner> if it fails you can just roll back and try again after testing and fixing some more, right?
01:13:48 <Sgeo> Failing might look like bad diagnostic data, or like a slowdown that's only apparent when a lot of people are hititng the site
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01:14:12 <ion> Wat. People were detained in Europe for paying using coins. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24524699
01:14:35 <Sgeo> But the code is going to be rolled back in a few days anyway, even if it works 100% properly
01:15:06 <Sgeo> Euro-coins look pretty
01:15:47 <kmc> my friend paid off the last of his university bill with a bunch of $1 coins in a burlap sack with a big "$" drawn on it
01:16:42 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah. bimetalic coins are nice, I wish we had them here
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01:17:05 <kmc> also I wish that people actually used $1 coins with enough frequency to make them not annoying
01:17:13 <kmc> and I wish that vendors would choose prices that come out to a round number after tax
01:17:16 <kmc> and I want a pony too
01:17:28 <Sgeo> I want prices to be listed after tax rather than before tax
01:17:42 <Sgeo> Although I may have slightly stopped paying attention to prices after getting a debit card
01:17:47 <Sgeo> And having a job
01:18:21 <kmc> with round numbers, coins are faster than a card
01:19:59 <trout> Sgeo: swiss coins are the biggest PITA though
01:20:05 <trout> they have a 5 franc coin!
01:20:06 <shachaf> kmc: sometimes they do that and then tax changes :'(
01:20:20 <shachaf> it's pretty rare in the us, though
01:20:28 <trout> shachaf: how does tax change?
01:20:33 <kmc> ballot measure
01:20:35 <kmc> trout: that must be one of the more valuable coins in common circulation
01:20:48 <trout> and its so annoying when you drop a coin
01:21:03 <trout> ' 3,700 one-euro coins were then found in their room.'
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01:50:14 <kmc> it's so weird that comments in HTML stick around in the DOM
01:51:20 <kmc> but you need it (at least internally) because of shit like <script><!-- alert('hi'); //--></script>
02:19:52 <shachaf> oerjan: do you like pizza y/n
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02:56:20 <Sgeo> That went reasonably well, maybe
02:56:22 <Sgeo> Won't really know until morning
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03:03:13 <pikhq> kmc: They stick around in the XML DOM too.
03:03:30 <pikhq> Just in case you want to do stupid shit with your XSLT.
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03:06:06 <Bike> i remember when i learned html4 both books i had recommended doing that so that internet explorer wouldn't shit itself when you put in javascript
03:06:36 <ion> I’d be fine with browsers ignoring code withing <script><!-- … --></script>
03:06:49 <ion> “withing”? ok
03:06:51 <Sgeo> Well, my few lines of code are now being executed every time someone hits the site... which will be millions of people, probably
03:07:01 <Bike> can i have ur autograph
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03:25:53 <Sgeo> A bunch of EVE players are planning to fight the NPC police
03:25:59 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1ogh7d/concord_vs_eve_yulai_october_19_2013_2000_eve_time/
03:26:31 <Fiora> didn't m0o do that like in 2004 or something?
03:27:10 <Fiora> and then concord got buffed <_<
03:37:23 <Fiora> I did a while ago...
03:46:45 <kmc> <!-- … --> is a pretty good face
03:58:38 <Sgeo> http://www.pasterack.org/pastes/4143
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03:59:13 <Sgeo> Yes, I know I don't know how to spell awful
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04:13:40 <kmc> this one emphasizes that you are full of awe
04:13:51 <kmc> anyway what's the point of this pls
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04:43:03 <Sgeo> I don't remember what my debugging codes mean offhand
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04:52:13 <Sgeo> My code is already paying off
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05:17:12 <kmc> did Mozart put out some new music?
05:17:28 <kmc> i guess he heard that GY!BE was touring again
05:20:28 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy: HOLY FUCK THAT'S STILL ALIVE?
05:20:32 <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into it
05:21:00 <Sgeo> I've always wanted to look at it but it's deadness kept scaring me away
05:21:19 <NihilistDandy> I just thought about it out of the blue and went to check it out
05:24:38 <NihilistDandy> Even works on OS X with something other than Aquamacs, which is thrilling
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05:46:07 <Sgeo> I have sudden concerns about my code
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06:47:34 <fizzie> Must be fun being all role-play-y and this-is-Serious-Business-y and so on about EVE (assuming people do that? it sounds like something people would do) when there's a large chunk of space claimed by a "Legion of xXDEATHXx". (Looked at some kind of a map.)
06:48:42 <Bike> a while back i read a jihadology report on identified foreign fighters who had died in syria. it generally included their forum handles if applicable.
06:48:45 <Bike> i'll let you use your imagination.
06:49:24 <kmc> a prominent EVE person and SomethingAwful forum mod was killed in the attack on the US embassy in Benghazi
06:49:51 <Bike> yeah that was sad
06:49:56 <Bike> rat... something
06:50:43 <Bike> vilerat, that was it
06:52:02 <Bike> it was weird having EVE people come by the middle east thread on SA to talk about nuking libya
06:54:24 <fizzie> Bike: Well, you know, you can legally shoot back for 15 minutes, or something.
06:54:50 <Bike> they were dicks.
07:24:30 <kmc> did you all see https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/the-linux-backdoor-attempt-of-2003/
07:28:08 <kmc> if ((options == (__WCLONE|__WALL)) && (current->uid = 0)) retval = -EINVAL;
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07:39:24 <zzo38> It certainly does look like wrong. I don't know what __WCLONE and __WALL are, but it sets uid to zero and then would not change retval.
07:42:51 <FireFly> it's the set-uid-to-0 part that is really interesting
07:43:48 <zzo38> I can understand how that would be a problem, but I don't know what __WCLONE and __WALL are.
07:45:20 <kmc> I hadn't even noticed the other bug
07:45:26 <kmc> I'm glad you did zzo38 :)
07:45:52 <zzo38> It seems it might be some kind of bit flags, although I don't know what the other possible options are, and if that is the case it seems strange that it checks for that exact combination. These kind of things do suggest possibly deliberate backdoors
07:47:25 <zzo38> kmc: You didn't notice it? Why didn't you notice it?
07:49:40 <kmc> wasn't looking
07:52:50 <zzo38> Should the compiler warn "Condition is always false" or something like that?
08:01:58 <kmc> hm, probably
08:16:08 <fizzie> And also from what I recall, __WCLONE and __WALL are mutually exclusive, so the check sort of halfway makes sense.
08:16:29 <fizzie> Though reporting an error only when current->uid == 0 would be kind of strange thing to do overall.
08:17:08 <fizzie> The man page specifies that "[__WCLONE] is ignored if __WALL is also specified."
08:18:26 <fizzie> (In any case, it should probably be testing for (options & (__WCLONE|__WALL)) == (__WCLONE|__WALL) if it wanted to test for that.
08:18:45 <fizzie> (Unless "options" has been purged of other flags.)
08:19:21 <impomatic> Errrr, is it normal to see smoke or steam or something coming out of a laser printer. I've never noticed it before. Slightly worried.
08:21:11 <fizzie> (I don't think it's normal.)
08:22:13 <fizzie> "Issue: Steam or vapor is visible above the output tray, and moisture might appear on the trailing edge of printouts. The printouts might be damp, wet, or curled. If steam is released from the product, it might appear to be smoke."
08:22:26 <fizzie> "HP has tested the performance of this product thoroughly, and this moisture is part of the normal operation of the product. The vapor occurs because moisture condenses in the output area until the internal temperature reaches a level at which no condensation occurs."
08:22:34 <fizzie> Can't say I've noticed, though.
08:22:48 <fizzie> Presumably internal humidity &c. has a role.
08:23:27 <fizzie> (That's for HP LaserJets, but presumably the overall operating principles are common for most laser printers.)
08:24:21 <impomatic> I've just moved a dehumidifier to the office. Hopefully it'll solve the problem.
08:26:20 <fizzie> According to HP, it is not a problem.
08:26:36 <fizzie> Though the person receiving the "damp, wet, or curled" paper might disagree.
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08:36:58 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes I also noticed that it was strange to be only when uid is zero. I am pretty sure whoever put it in there then must have been either extremely confused about the system and acting really stupid, or more likely, they deliberately put that bug in there and hoped nobody would notice
08:38:02 <zzo38> But I can program in C, and know what "uid" is, so I can see why it is strange and bug, and any other C programmers can also tell; I don't know how they expected that nobody would notice.
08:38:34 <zzo38> Even if somebody doesn't see the bug I would expect them to question it at least.
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08:44:45 <fizzie> It was slipped in sort of clandestinely, not through the usual channels.
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10:45:17 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> NihilistDandy: HOLY FUCK THAT'S STILL ALIVE? <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into it
10:45:23 <HackEgo> 1118) <Sgeo> NihilistDandy: HOLY FUCK THAT'S STILL ALIVE? <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into it
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10:54:56 <fizzie> "If you’ve ended up on this page, you have probably found the HTTP user agent string of Panopta Monitoring (http://checks.panopta.com) in your logs and are wondering why you’re seeing requests to your server. There are a number of possible reasons for this: * The monitoring could have been setup by someone else in your organization."
10:55:03 <fizzie> Yes, that seems most likely.
10:55:29 <fizzie> fungot: Did you, a someone else in my organization, set up some Panopta Monitoring?
10:55:29 <fungot> fizzie: the language has
10:55:38 <fizzie> Oh, the *language* has. Well, then.
10:55:51 <oerjan> fizzie: are the connections coming from finland?
10:56:22 <fizzie> From somewhere in the UK.
10:56:41 <oerjan> i guess you should contact your representatives in the uk, then.
10:57:16 <fizzie> Also a possible reason: "A competitor might be looking for comparison data on their online presence."
10:57:30 <fizzie> All those people competing in the Funge-98 bot market, probably.
10:57:37 <oerjan> ooh it's probably hexham university!
10:57:52 <oerjan> yes, that's the ticket
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11:08:37 <fizzie> Today's "ended up at the OpenTTD logic page, was probably looking for something else" search query: "4 bit adder and its working"
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11:53:54 <fizzie> "You are requested to use high quality headphones for this experiment" but I just have this cheap USB headset.
11:54:10 <fizzie> (It's a speech synthesis naturalness evaluation listening test.)
11:55:26 <Jafet> Is it high quality speech synthesis
11:56:15 <fizzie> In fact, "HQ speech synthesis" was in the subject line of the email.
11:56:32 <fizzie> I'd certainly like to hear some, but what if my headphones are not high quality enough?
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11:58:14 <Jafet> fungot doesn't need headphones.
11:58:14 <fungot> Jafet: but just because you can access a method pointer do you consider that upstate?
11:58:58 <fizzie> fungot: You sure shut him up.
11:58:58 <fungot> fizzie: that seems extreme without an extra room to put it more formally
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12:38:31 <fizzie> Ooh, the "port 4679 guy" started again.
12:39:11 <fizzie> From a different IP this time.
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13:46:13 <JesseH> Anyone need another brainfuck compiler or interpreter? :P
13:47:40 <boily> good frighumid morning!
13:48:09 <JesseH> ._. I think I know boily
13:48:32 <JesseH> Unless "JesseHello" is a common term
13:48:59 <boily> it's a Quaint Tradition from the Channel, where you try to conflagrate a hello-derivative into someone's nick.
13:49:44 <JesseH> You have made it impossible for yours.
13:49:45 <JesseH> https://github.com/jessehorne/phpbf
13:51:00 <JesseH> I'm having to learn PHP recently, so I thought i might as well write something fun with it :P
13:51:37 <boily> JesseH: such is life with a francophone name. apparently, hoily is quite popular.
13:52:13 <JesseH> That is not a greeting :P
13:52:31 <JesseH> Not where I come from...Murica
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13:54:47 <boily> according to the data I have, you're approximatively due South from me.
13:55:12 <JesseH> Super Stalker Technique! kaaaamaaaaahaaaamaaHAAAAA
13:56:23 <metasepia> KATL 151352Z 08009KT 10SM BKN012 BKN027 OVC030 18/14 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP208 T01780144
13:56:50 <boily> weather at that infamous airport in Atlanta.
13:57:08 <JesseH> I am a little bit below atlanta
13:57:24 <JesseH> Want me street address?
13:57:40 <boily> uhm, no. that'd be very stalky, and I'm no stalker.
13:58:16 <JesseH> What happened to those firefly commercials?
14:02:01 <fizzie> boily: Frighteningly humid?
14:03:56 <boily> fizzie: frigid and humid.
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14:15:05 <boily> `relcome Uguubee111117
14:15:09 <HackEgo> Uguubee111117: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:14:23 <shachaf> oerjan: do all norwegians like pizza y/n
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16:49:48 <zzo38> The king is allergic to beholders and wants them all killed, even though only (exactly) half of them have done anything bad. ... Identify the problem with this. (It isn't implied by the text, although knowing that there is a problem may allow it to be known.)
16:51:14 <JesseH> Can one create a turing complete language that uses one character?
16:51:32 <zzo38> JesseH: Can you please be more specific?
16:52:04 <JesseH> Is it possible that a language can be turing complete, using a combination of only one ascii character, and spaces
16:52:22 <JesseH> What if you took the space away? :P
16:52:34 <fizzie> There are languages that only use the length of the file.
16:52:54 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary
16:53:02 <fizzie> That one uses only the character '0' with no spaces.
16:53:49 <fizzie> It's also a brainfuck derivative, because of course it is.
16:54:05 <JesseH> I have had enough of brainfuck for today
16:54:22 <Bike> it doesn't have to be brainfuck.
16:54:24 <fizzie> I think there were some other Unary-like languages.
16:54:39 <Bike> just enumerate the turing machines.
16:54:44 <JesseH> I need to work on improving my languages
16:54:49 <JesseH> They are so terribly shitty :D
16:55:14 <JesseH> ooo I've heard of that one
16:55:21 <fizzie> fungot: Have you heard of that one?
16:55:22 <fungot> fizzie: then why do you think
16:55:30 <fizzie> fungot: You're made in it, that's why.
16:55:30 <fungot> fizzie: you code in a procedure to return any sort of looping there; how do you choose not to give the standard bindings the extended meanings from srfi 1
16:56:04 <myname> also, i read that move and one conditional jump is turing complete
16:56:27 <fizzie> There was something about that article that annoyed me.
16:56:44 <fizzie> I think the "it halts by doing an access violation" aspect.
16:57:00 <fungot> JesseH: do you think?!) the scheme implementation
16:57:16 <fizzie> fungot: There's a Scheme implementation of you?!
16:57:17 <fungot> fizzie: chicken scheme is written in before it has changed! i was just responding to minus273's suggestion that ' ( 1 2))
16:57:31 <JesseH> fizzie, hes right you know
16:57:35 <fizzie> Yes, I think we all agree that '(1 2).
17:09:41 <boily> fungot: can you handle Italian cuisine?
17:09:42 <fungot> boily: i love censorship!! it's liberace and tuesday weld!!
17:10:45 <boily> fizzie: your bot. I can't understand it.
17:11:48 <Bike> i think that means fungot can't handle italian quizzine.
17:11:48 <fungot> Bike: except slime48.el, i presume?
17:12:47 <zzo38> What is slime48.el? Is it related to Emacs?
17:13:07 <boily> fungot: slime and sludge and grime and dirt and gooey stuff?
17:13:07 <fungot> boily: 19 isnt between 1 and 20, inclusive? 10) ( integer-char 13)
17:13:47 <fungot> FireFly: the language is beautiful, but there are books like sicp and sicm, fnord java has a consistent api with a design in mind and a lot more specific about how that relates to the source
17:14:19 <FireFly> "the language is beautiful [...] java"
17:14:58 <boily> “fnord java has a consistent api with a design in mind”
17:15:06 <boily> I... I am deeply disturbed.
17:16:40 <fizzie> zzo38: It's a kind of an integration thing between Emacs and the Scheme48 Scheme implementation, yes. (Derived or some-such from SLIME, an Emacs thing for Common Lisp stuff.)
17:17:35 <FireFly> fungot: what's your opinion on brainfuck derivatives?
17:17:35 <fungot> FireFly: and then compile to that interactively, interpret it, but glad you got it :)), so you
17:17:53 <FireFly> not sure what to make of that, fungot...
17:17:53 <fungot> FireFly: so it is sans?" etc.
17:18:47 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 15) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
17:19:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found
17:19:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:21:27 <fizzie> You can schee the #scheme roots.
17:23:19 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
17:24:37 <zzo38> Any mahjong playing today?
17:24:58 <zzo38> FireFly: Is the Enron set closed today?
17:28:03 <fizzie> FireFly: You may have exhausted your limit.
17:28:15 <fizzie> fungot: Speak, friend, and enter.
17:28:15 <fungot> fizzie: by the time we wish you the best to get out the attached. whether the shipper on k. see the spreadsheet.
17:28:33 <fizzie> There's a four-in-a-row rule.
17:29:08 <fizzie> I don't think the Enron style is terribly good.
17:29:24 <FireFly> What's a good style that isn't irc?
17:30:05 <fungot> FireFly: therefore i was sorting the stations according to the money."? third offense.
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17:30:16 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
17:30:20 <fizzie> They have their own pros and cons.
17:30:28 <fizzie> But many of them are good only sporadically.
17:30:34 <zzo38> The style of my stories and games maybe (note: there is no such thing, therefore it cannot possibly be the best style, nor can it possibly be the worse).
17:31:05 <zzo38> O, and maybe flamenco may be good but I don't know and since it isn't there you canot use that one either
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17:53:49 <shachaf> that's neithem here nom there
17:54:22 <boily> from whom shall I borrow the swatter, so I can hit shachaf?
17:57:01 <FireFly> I haven't seen the swatter in a while
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17:58:20 <boily> I'll have to use a makeshift swatter...
17:58:30 <fizzie> Also! In the local grocery store they sold that Hexham Fentimans thing.
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17:58:51 * boily swats shachaf with a carrot plush from Ikea <}=
17:59:18 <boily> fizzie: I tasted the shandy the other day. it wasn't half bad.
17:59:33 <fizzie> boily: Swat with a SAMSPLET.
17:59:47 <fizzie> SAMSPELT. I can't even spell.
18:00:11 <boily> holy green cubic thing...
18:01:08 <fizzie> They didn't have much of a selection, but I bought a Curiosity Cola and their Traditional Ginger Beer.
18:01:22 <fizzie> I'm "gunna" pretend I'm in Hexham.
18:01:34 <shachaf> do they say "gunna" in Hexham
18:02:03 <zzo38> Tell me if this ASCII mahjong format is OK? s=sou,m=man,p=pin,ESWN=wind,F=hatsu,C=chun,P=haku,a=akadora, / separate blocks for example 123456p/111s/EEECC might be one kind of hand. In case of Washizu mahjong you put opaque tiles in [] and for opponent's unknown tiles you use ?
18:02:51 <boily> fizzie: I have the orange moose from → http://www.ikea.com/ca/fr/catalog/products/80176340/
18:03:18 <zzo38> For tile taken from other player you type 777m(w) if take from west player, or for "CHII" you can write (4)56p if you have picked the 4 from the other player
18:03:18 <fizzie> I don't think we have any real decorative IKEA items.
18:03:33 <boily> zzo38: IIRC, I think the anglo-centric version uses A=pin, B=sou, C=man, and G=hatsu, R=chun, W=haku.
18:03:40 <fizzie> Oh, except we have a TRÅDIG!
18:03:48 <FireFly> boily: did you know that "söt barnslig" means "cute childish"?
18:04:00 <fizzie> I've put apples in the TRÅDIG.
18:04:09 <boily> FireFly: now I do.
18:05:03 <boily> zzo38: do you think there may be a possibility of perhaps being able playing mahjong on IRC?
18:05:15 <zzo38> boily: I don't know of any using A=pin, B=sou, C=man. W=haku can't be correct either.
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18:05:32 <zzo38> boily: Possibly. At least I can play mahjong and you can and possibly others too, maybe in other server?
18:06:54 <zzo38> Still, the ASCII format I mentioned is for UnAmerican. For American, I would suggest using different letters as follows: b=bamboo,c=crack,d=dot,G=green dragon,R=red dragon,0=white dragon,F=flower,J=joker
18:07:36 <zzo38> Where did you get the " A=pin, B=sou, C=man, and G=hatsu, R=chun, W=haku" version from?
18:07:51 <boily> from my very, very fuzzy memory.
18:08:08 <boily> seems that I hallucitiled that.
18:08:22 <zzo38> I do not believe it can possibly be correct, especially since W=west
18:09:52 <boily> hmm... 0 can't be correct neither, as it is the orb of zot. I think your proposition is best.
18:10:49 <zzo38> My first proposition is best, I think, for Japanese mahjong and all other UnAmerican forms.
18:12:39 <zzo38> What kind of mahjong game involves orbs?
18:13:13 <boily> it was a not so subtle reference to DCSS... >_>'...
18:13:14 <zzo38> Pokemon mahjong (something I made up) involves stones, but not orbs!
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18:18:44 <zzo38> Pokemon mahjong involves 619 tiles (although additional "typeless wildcards" are dealt if the previous hand ended in a draw), and this is only for first generation. It also has two kind of sequences, ambiguity rules for called "chii" and "pon", five special hands (seven pairs, sequence of fourteen, fourteen wildcards, skipping sequence of fourteen, same as your first fourteen untaken discards), and much more.
18:18:53 <zzo38> Do you know of pokemon good enough to know this?
18:19:25 <zzo38> There is also two kinds of furiten (wild and natural).
18:21:09 <boily> ~eval 619 / (4 * 17)
18:21:27 <zzo38> Where did you get 4 * 17 from?
18:22:06 <boily> you'd have >9 tile-high walls. isn't that a little bit... excessive?
18:22:17 <boily> one layer of 17 tile-wide wall?
18:22:19 <zzo38> 619 is 151 (number of pokemon species) times four (copies of each), plus 15 (number of types; one typed wildcard of each type).
18:22:41 <zzo38> boily: O, that's how. Well, you would probably need to use a bag instead of walls, or play the game on a computer.
18:22:59 <boily> nothing like the feeling of a thrown tile at an opponent.
18:23:49 <boily> FireFly: that reminds me of a game of warhammer some friends played over the weekend. 6' × 12' table, 15 000 points each side.
18:25:17 <zzo38> FireFly: Of course it wouldn't be easily playable with walls; a computer, or an automatic mixer, or something, would help.
18:25:35 <zzo38> boily: I think I have seen warhammer game just once
18:26:40 <FireFly> I don't think I have ever seen one
18:26:45 <FireFly> at least, I know nothing of the rules :<
18:27:27 <zzo38> In this Pokemon mahjong, closed sets may be ambiguous but open sets are required to be unambiguous. For example, [3,fire,joker] and [4,fire,joker] are ambiguous, [2,fire,joker] is unambiguous, and [1,fire,joker] is not a valid set at all.
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18:28:31 <boily> FireFly: the rules include always rolling many dice many times, and boasting that your units are always better, even when playing against the same kind of figurines.
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18:42:16 <zzo38> In Pokemon mahjong I don't know how much more difficult it will be to make a hand. Although there is a lot more possible tiles, it also has some features to make it somewhat easier: It has wildcards, all (natural) tiles are numeric, only two of the numbers are end tiles, two kind of sequences (although this only improves your chances in more than one generation, it affects scoring even in first generation), Charleston, evolution stones, etc
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18:43:04 <zzo38> Can you understand this so far?
18:46:30 <zzo38> In first generation a [25,26] can be completed with a 24 or 27. In second generation, it can be completed with a 24, 27, or 172.
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18:47:56 <boily> I SEE [[ WHAT IS A 172? ]] ORANGE JUICE GOODBYE!
18:49:30 <boily> `relcome snuffeluffegus
18:49:33 <HackEgo> snuffeluffegus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:50:01 <boily> zzo38: I miss the first gen. I wonder if I can play the games on my ouya...
18:51:03 <zzo38> boily: If you have a GameBoy emulator (and the ROM image), or a rewrite of the game, then you can.
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18:51:24 <nooodl> zzo38: has anyone rewritten the entire game?
18:51:44 <zzo38> nooodl: I don't know, but I think some people have at least partially done so on some systems.
18:52:57 <zzo38> I once wrote how to make the Pokemon Red game on a 8x8 ASCII display and only seven buttons (none of which are pushed simultaneously), while still displaying much more information at once than the actual game, and allowing commands to be entered much more quickly than the actual game too!
18:53:05 <FireFly> If nothing else, surely you'll be able to find a Gameboy emulator for the Ouya
18:53:48 <zzo38> I had to shorten each element type to one letter, each item and move name to five letters, get rid of the species names entirely (and use only numbers), shorten nicknames to two letters, etc but it does work!
18:54:04 <zzo38> myname: I didn't write it in C, though. I just prototyped it on a paper.
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18:54:29 <myname> a pokemon-like game in terminal could be fun
18:54:52 <FireFly> I once wrote an RPG thing with a battle system vaguely similar to Pokémon in TI-BASIC
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18:54:58 <FireFly> I wouldn't recommend doing that
18:55:05 <FireFly> TI-BASIC isn't terribly fun to program in
18:55:33 <zzo38> I did write a solitaire card game in TI-92 TI-BASIC (which isn't actually BASIC)
18:55:55 -!- shikhin__ has changed nick to shikhin.
18:56:11 <FireFly> I think the most annoying part of TI-BASIC is the lack of indentation and comment syntax
18:56:13 <zzo38> myname: Yes I also wanted possibly having Pokemon game in Z-machine, even, called "Z-Pokemon" (not to confuse with "Pokemon Z").
18:56:27 <zzo38> FireFly: TI-92 supports indentation and comments.
18:59:11 <myname> do you actually argue about HOW crappy it was?
19:00:01 <zzo38> In 8x8 Pokemon game I had, in battle you push up/down/left/right for each attack (each direction corresponds to an attack), A to shift, B to use item, C to escape or surrender (you will blacked out if you surrender, and lose money just as if you have lost the battle normally). Outside of battle, run into an object to activate it, A to pokemons, B to items, C for a status screen (which also allows saving game and using HMs).
19:01:20 <zzo38> Some features are omitted such as the Pokedex and what a lot of the people say.
19:01:21 <fizzie> FireFly: You can "indent" in TI-86 BASIC, with extra ":"s.
19:01:32 <fizzie> FireFly: (Though there isn't that much screen space to indent to.)
19:01:48 <zzo38> But all of the important parts are there.
19:01:51 <fizzie> Assuming ":" was the command separation character.
19:01:54 <FireFly> fizzie: I recall that making the programs run noticeably slower though
19:02:00 <myname> "can't indent, fill with NOPs"
19:02:05 <fizzie> FireFly: Well, yes, it's a tradeoff. :p
19:02:51 <myname> it sounds very very creepy
19:03:00 <boily> is the TI-86 that slow that doing a 1-cycle NOP noticeably slow it???
19:03:28 <myname> boily: if you do like 2 to 6 before EVERY command
19:03:30 <FireFly> Well, doing enough of them to have it act as indentation did, as I recall anyway
19:03:54 <boily> myname: I mean, the machine's clocked at 6 MHz!
19:03:58 <FireFly> And yes, that is fairly bad
19:04:20 <FireFly> This was on the TI-82 stat
19:05:08 <FireFly> Oh, same clock speed though
19:05:36 <boily> speed and frequency are the same thing :D
19:05:52 <boily> (in a very much warped out universe)
19:06:15 <FireFly> I suppose, but using "speed" there felt wrong
19:06:30 <FireFly> but I guess both are s⁻¹ in the context of CPUs
19:07:15 <zzo38> If you play Dungeons&Dragons game, can you tell me if the list of things I needed to prepare and request of the kingdom was a good one, or what I missed or whatever?
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19:15:42 <boily> zzo38: which kingdom? are you refering to the level20.tex file?
19:16:48 <zzo38> boily: The level20.tex is the game, yes, but the list of things is in the IRC log (I will find and copy it out for you). It is the kingdom that I managed to save
19:17:21 <Bike> good job on that
19:18:47 <boily> ain't no job that can't be enlatexed.
19:19:21 <boily> (btw, I've been lagging on the last few updates... oh well. I'll wait for a few more sgeo quotes, then batch everything together.)
19:19:25 <zzo38> What does "enlatexed" mean?
19:19:39 <boily> to transcribe into LaTeX.
19:20:08 <zzo38> Ah, yes, a lot of things can be done with that.
19:20:32 <HackEgo> 258) <zzo38> I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!! \ 717) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird \ 749) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me
19:21:05 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:21:14 <Bike> and aren't you glad we did, lumpi- oh. gone. i guess we stopped capitalizing.
19:21:17 <HackEgo> 298) <zzo38> <elliott> <quintopia> i know it's unusual, but i agree with you both to some extent \ 1072) <zzo38> TeX is a bit unusual when doing things other than typesetting
19:21:51 <boily> Bike: lumpio? capitalizing?
19:21:52 <fizzie> boily: It's not a 1-cycle NOP, it's an empty BASIC instruction.
19:22:03 <boily> fizzie: good point.
19:22:07 <fizzie> boily: The BASIC interpreter is incredibly slow, as are all other ROM routines on that thing.
19:22:46 <fizzie> boily: mooz (of #esoteric 2003 fame) disassembled the BCD-float math routines on it and said they could probably be orders of magnitude faster, for example.
19:23:21 <boily> i vois too, i vois tooooo, iiiiii vois toooo ♪
19:23:32 <boily> (sorry. that's just inherently funny to sing ☺)
19:25:44 <zzo38> OK I found it in 2013-10-14
19:26:04 <Bike> oh shit, i thought that was today.
19:26:05 <zzo38> I like this HackEgo you can search the logs
19:26:14 <fizzie> Random fact of the day: TI-86 math works with 10-byte full-software floats. (One byte of flags, incl. sign; two bytes for a power-of-ten exponent in the -999..999 range encoded with a bias of 0xfc00; seven bytes for a 14-digit BCD mantissa.)
19:26:43 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I have to do some prepare (including to ask things of the kingdom) before continuing on the next quest. I have some ideas; tell me if you think I missed something? * Ask for a spare space on a shelf to store my books and stuff I don't need to carry to there * Request a boat or boat ticket * Summon a familiar
19:27:03 <zzo38> * Study the Calimsham some more * Find religious ties in Church of Gxxyuxihuvxi in both cities * Try to ask father's friend if he is a speaker in dreams * Get the Calimsham advisor and others who may need to come
19:27:03 <boily> fizzie: but whyyyyy?
19:27:08 <zzo38> boily: There it is.
19:27:37 <boily> zzo38: oh, nice! but why is the Chuch name in Albanian?
19:27:41 <fizzie> boily: Decimal formats maybe have a bit less cases where they do unintuitive things, since you can at least represent most inputs exactly.
19:27:58 <zzo38> boily: It isn't in Albanian, maybe it resembles Albanian but I don't know.
19:29:19 <fizzie> One thing that's slightly funny is that you could easily fit a -9999..9999 exponent range in those bits; but maybe that's a market segmentation thing. (Or maybe it really made something easier, who knows.)
19:29:22 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
19:29:42 <boily> zzo38: according to my d&ding experience, always have a familiar with you. very useful against TPK.
19:29:58 <Bike> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aps.1364/abstract Psychoanalysis is the best
19:30:23 <zzo38> boily: That isn't the purpose here but yes that can be one purpose. (Furthermore there aren't any other players at this time)
19:31:18 <boily> zzo38: if you're talking to people, always ask your way around about presence of agents provocateurs, extremist factions, sects, conspiracies, and stuff.
19:31:34 <Bike> you're playing D&D by yourself?
19:31:55 <fizzie> kmc: I've spent like four hours reading Xen internals, because I'm terribly tempted by that XenRust idea, even though I know beforehand I'd (at best) just make something borderline working and then abandon it in ~/src.
19:31:57 <zzo38> Bike: No. It is possible other players will come in but they usually don't by now; however there is still a DM
19:32:00 * JesseH needs someone to play RPGs with :P
19:32:08 <fizzie> (Though at least it's been moderately interesting. I did learn -- in retrospect, unsurprising -- that paravirtualized Linux-on-Xen on x86-64 runs the guest kernel in ring 3 too. (The x86-32 implementation has the guest kernel in ring 1; both have Xen itself in ring 0 and guest userland in ring 3, of course.))
19:32:26 <zzo38> boily: Yes, I know I have to learn about those things too.
19:32:27 <JesseH> Whose D&D game is this?
19:32:40 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
19:32:45 <zzo38> JesseH: It is that one
19:33:15 * JesseH thought that he got lucky and found players
19:33:24 <JesseH> That's a long thing to read btw
19:34:43 <zzo38> boily: To know the current situation,read the part near the end of the file; it is a letter I transcribed
19:34:49 <boily> seems that you don't exists yet. are you sure that you're not Canadian?
19:35:59 <zzo38> I have to beat Aberration Hater and unimprison my character's father.
19:36:08 * FireFly has 'em on altgr+shift+hjkl
19:36:14 <JesseH> zzo38, dont do it, its a trap
19:36:24 <JesseH> your father is already dead
19:36:26 <JesseH> they want to kill you too
19:36:31 <Bike> what"s␣up␣friends
19:36:33 <zzo38> JesseH: I considered that.
19:36:47 <JesseH> bike, i ride you everyday
19:36:47 <zzo38> I think it is a possibility. That is why I am going to check things first!
19:36:59 <zzo38> I have all the spells and psychic communications to check things.
19:37:00 <JesseH> That wasn't supposed to be dirty.......
19:37:08 <boily> JesseH: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#Canadian_Multilingual_Standard
19:37:09 <zzo38> And if they do want to kill me do then maybe I can beat them up too
19:37:20 <JesseH> boily, I am not canadan
19:37:46 <boily> zzo38: do you have any necromancy spells available?
19:38:16 <zzo38> boily: Of that school, yes, but not the ones to raise dead and kill someone dead and stuff like that.
19:38:38 <boily> zzo38: I was thinking along the speak-with-the-dead line.
19:38:58 <zzo38> boily: Ah. Well, I do have speak-with-the-living line, so I can use that on two different people.
19:39:31 <boily> spell schools are confusing. imo, everything should be under conjurations. need to make it rain? *BOOM* rain. fireball? *BOOM* fireball. diplomacy with an emissary from an exotic nation? *BOOM* instant trade agreement.
19:40:09 <boily> zzo38: just to troll my GM next time, I should try to setup a P2P network between cadavers :D
19:40:32 <zzo38> I don't use that. I have no fireballs, if I need fire I can cast a different spell (energy ray), or just light a fire using a torch.
19:40:57 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transhumanist_Wager
19:41:47 <boily> Bike: “compared to the Ayn Rand novel Atlas Shrugged”
19:41:49 <zzo38> I have "Correspond" and will use that on both my father and my father's friend.
19:42:11 <zzo38> boily: What character do you play? Do you have a familiar and if so which one? What spells, if any?
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19:44:38 <boily> zzo38: I play a custom monk-druid mix. I have a legacy spectral seagull. I can summon porcupines, crocodiles and pantheras.
19:46:24 <zzo38> The familiar I wanted is a leech but there are no stats for that
19:46:52 <Bike> iirc leeches are basically considered one hit kill able.
19:47:13 <zzo38> Familiars have modified hit points though
19:47:32 <zzo38> But in general I suppose so
19:47:41 <Bike> i don't think you're going to beef up a leech to the point where it can take a hit from a sword and not die.
19:48:11 <zzo38> I can think we can.
19:48:33 <Bike> you can think you can, but that think will be wrong.
19:48:53 <zzo38> Do you know the rules for familiars?
19:49:26 <boily> the exact rules as prescribed by WotC? no.
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19:49:59 <zzo38> I think familiars have the same hit points according to its master's level regardless of what animal it is or its Con score, and also get bonus AC
19:50:29 <boily> I think you can just gurps it, and have something custom that goes well with the RP.
19:50:46 <zzo38> I'm not playing GURPS.
19:51:00 <zzo38> (Nor do I know how)
19:53:05 <boily> what I meant is: start with a blank character sheet, fill in the necessary stats, and treat your familiar as a PC.
19:53:21 <zzo38> A familiar isn't a PC.
19:53:47 <zzo38> Although the stats can be filled in for NPCs too in that way I suppose.
19:54:44 <zzo38> Some familiars also have a power when in range with the master, and/or a power anywhere, so I can make up stuff like that too and see if it is good.
19:57:32 <zzo38> A familiar is also useful if you want to cast a "you" spell on someone other than yourself.
20:01:26 <zzo38> If you know the stats you can tell me I will write it down.
20:02:35 <boily> I may have a copy somewhere in my inbox, perhaps, maybe, peut-être...
20:03:33 <zzo38> I am not very good at French, sorry.
20:04:01 <boily> no worries, I have a draft PDF, written in English.
20:04:05 <zzo38> Does anyone in your game have a familiar?
20:04:24 <zzo38> I do not need the entire fire.
20:04:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:05:04 <boily> zzo38: only me, the PDF is small, and I need your e-mail address.
20:05:26 <zzo38> I don't have any email.
20:05:33 <boily> (!siaçnarf el sdnerppa)
20:06:12 <boily> (this subliminal message was presented to you by the Groupe d'Action Populaire pour la Propagation du Français)
20:06:18 <zzo38> Also some PDF files don't work in my computer.
20:06:40 <zzo38> If you copy the relevant stats in one line of text I can deal with that however.
20:06:52 <boily> not sure it'll work, but I'll try.
20:08:20 <oerjan> shachaf: it's the stereotypical norwegian meal these days, so approximately.
20:10:11 <boily> zzo38: the stats: Str 12 Dex 20 Wis 14 Con 17 lnt 3 Cha 7
20:10:24 <boily> (and a bunch of other stuff I'm trying to one-line-format)
20:10:40 <oerjan> also https://www.facebook.com/elliot.waldman
20:11:15 <zzo38> The Int (not "lnt") for normal animals is 1 or 2, not 3. For a familiar, it is overridden (the normal Int score is ignored), however. OK?
20:11:27 <^v> i call bullshit
20:11:28 <^v> http://puu.sh/4QYKt.png
20:11:34 <^v> /wrong channel
20:12:16 <boily> zzo38: here it comes...
20:12:19 <boily> Mouette (a.k.a. Living Zephyr) // Medium elemental magical beast // HP your bloodied value // Init Yours // AC 14, Fortitude 13, Reflex 14, Will 13 (add your level to each defense) // Perception Yours + 2 // Speed 0, fly 6 (hover; altitude limit 2) // Traits: Debris Cloud ✦ Aura 2 The aura is lightly obscured to enemies. // Standard actions: Animal Attack ✦ At-Will // Attack: Melee 1 (one creature);
20:12:21 <boily> your level + 5 vs. AC Hit: 1d10 + your Wisdom modifier damage, and the zephyr can slide the target 1 square. // Str 12 Dex 20 Wis 14 Con 17 lnt 3 Cha 7 // Feats Staff Expertise, Battlewise, Improved defences, Mark of healing, Spirit stalker, Mending spirit // Resilient focus: You have a +2 feat bonus to saving throws.
20:12:39 * oerjan ponders an irc client which posts wrongly spelled /commands to the channel instead.
20:13:00 <zzo38> boily: O, so that is for the Living Zephyr.
20:13:10 <zzo38> I wanted the stats for the small leech though.
20:14:12 <zzo38> (Anyways that isn't a valid familiar for 3.5E)
20:14:24 <boily> indeed. that's a 4e seagull.
20:14:37 <boily> I'll have to ask my GM for leech stats.
20:14:59 <boily> (probably going to be useful some day for our ongoing campaign, knowing the kind of situations we find ourselves in)
20:15:08 <zzo38> A valid familiar consists of stats for an unmodified animal, adjusted according to the rules for familiars (not its own rules), plus any special powers that may be available to familiars of that type.
20:15:15 <zzo38> boily: What kind of situations are those?
20:15:38 <boily> zzo38: slimituations.
20:16:05 <zzo38> Is that a real word?
20:18:43 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
20:19:10 <zzo38> Then please tell me what is it meaning if you just made it up?
20:19:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to nisstyre.
20:19:43 <zzo38> I play this D&D game tomorrow, so I am writing down this list of stuff on this paper since he asked me to write what I needed prepare/request
20:21:19 <boily> zzo38: slimy situations.
20:21:42 <zzo38> O, slimy situations. OK.
20:22:46 <boily> and profundly, deeply, markedly stupid situations where the Facepalms Echo along the Great Cosmos.
20:22:51 <zzo38> What kind of slimy situations, do you have example?
20:23:18 <boily> eh... voluntarily throwing oneself in a stagnating puddle of mutagenic fluid?
20:23:54 <boily> traversing a putrid swamp made of slithering snakes?
20:24:09 <zzo38> Do you go into the puddle to avoid being caught by someone else?
20:24:16 -!- JesseH has left ("Leaving").
20:24:45 <boily> oh, no. my friend just likes to pinball his character in the most gore and unselfpreservating way.
20:24:47 <zzo38> I did go into a swamp with snakes once, but I had wood boots for everyone in the party so the snakes didn't hurt us too badly.
20:25:10 <zzo38> You can play pinball with D&D?
20:25:52 <boily> metaphoric pinball. like, random flailing around, rampant ADHD, and trying to find the most unwholesome way to achieve something, preferably by hitting the most people along the way.
20:26:03 <boily> (hitting physically, hitting romantically, hitting psychically...)
20:26:24 <boily> that, and butchering the French language at each sentence :D
20:27:32 <zzo38> O, like that. It isn't how I play this game, though, I prefer to hit people on the way when necessary and not hit anyone when it isn't necessary.
20:27:48 <boily> oerjan: c'est mignon.
20:28:45 <boily> zzo38: our team tends to act like a bunch of overly inquisitive thugs. ingame, we are nicknamed Explosion-on-the-Ocean.
20:30:08 <zzo38> I do strange things a lot, but due to what I think seem reasonable to the situation and to plan ahead, not to just do crazy things for no reason (unless there isn't anything else to do).
20:30:09 <oerjan> were any actual (ingame) oceans harmed in the making of that nickname
20:30:54 <boily> oerjan: oceans? pfshaw. you lack ambition :P
20:31:17 <boily> we completely annihilated the whole multiverse and their gods during our last campaign. MWAH AH AH AH AH!
20:32:11 <zzo38> boily: Oops! Unless that was the goal, you lose! (If it was the goal, congratulation you win!)
20:32:12 <oerjan> boily: also did jesseh essentially provide his approximate coordinates unasked
20:32:16 <boily> (serial escalation with drama, trahisons, heel turns, overpowered scrolls, armies, end of the world summonings, and things to that effect)
20:32:40 <boily> zzo38: it... uhm... I think it was a goal, somehow. nevertheless, it was grandiose.
20:33:24 <boily> oerjan: no, I resisted the temptation to get too much details, unless you are talking about the fact he provided me with a town, where I only had a state beforehand.
20:33:26 <zzo38> Were there other necessary goals too? If so, you would have had to do those other things at first if you want it to count, otherwise you will still lose.
20:33:55 <boily> zzo38: I'll have to dig to find the journal of that fateful day.
20:34:53 <boily> oerjan: in that case, I think that's a yes.
20:35:52 <oerjan> after all, it's not like the approximations are reliably _better_ than town size.
20:36:22 <oerjan> i recall that guy who provided coordinates for approximately the midpoint of washington state.
20:37:01 <oerjan> (and later mentioned being in olympia, iirc)
20:37:11 <boily> Bike's coördinates are very unprecise, and are very washingtonian.
20:37:47 <boily> (and why in fungot did I put Norrköpingsvägen for olsner...)
20:37:47 <fungot> boily: if that is not used commonly and carries with it an array subscript was too easy heh one time i figured if it's possible, notify the notary.
20:37:52 <oerjan> it may have been him. if the coordinates are in the middle of a forest nowhere.
20:38:18 <boily> fungot: exactly what I'm thinking.
20:38:19 <fungot> boily: uh, sorry, i have no information. he seemed, in fine, i can verify it up, leaving the new information could be provided that it is.
20:38:30 <boily> fungot: darn. foiled by your lack of information!
20:38:30 <fungot> boily: to, uhhh.... like nuns in the street, and has not named a
20:38:46 <boily> fungot: sadly, there aren't many streetwise nuns left.
20:38:46 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
20:38:56 <boily> aaaaaah, good airbus memories...
20:39:23 <FireFly> Did fungot just offer to verify olsner's Norrköpingsvägen address??
20:39:23 <fungot> FireFly: just to help an fnord archive) when it suffices that fnord is fnord to me is my fnord' doggie than a dozen tales, of the whole fnord range of the ' ' ' delete a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week,
20:39:31 <zzo38> Can you make up stats for the small leech? (not the big one)
20:39:51 <FireFly> fungot: that's enough fnord for this week for you
20:39:51 <fungot> FireFly: just to help an fnord archive)
20:40:05 <zzo38> (Even if killed in one hit that's OK because that is automatically overridden anyways)
20:40:41 <zzo38> FireFly: Then change the mode to something other than "fnord".
20:40:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:41:22 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
20:41:41 <FireFly> I guess it's the only style generating actually interesting lines
20:41:45 <fungot> FireFly: thats why the terminator should be n... the output is the same
20:41:50 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
20:41:55 <oerjan> recursive mode, in honor of yudkowsky's invited talk at MIT which i just read of in scott aaronson's blog
20:42:31 <Bike> who invited him to talk
20:43:13 <Bike> aaronson's "rationalist" streak is so annoying ~_~
20:43:17 <oerjan> also in the same blog post and comments, you can deduce that aaronson doesn't have web design sense.
20:44:07 <Bike> not a fan of embedded whatevertex?
20:44:17 <Bike> oh wow that shit is ugly
20:44:22 <oerjan> well that part is ok, although it doesn't seem to work in the rss.
20:44:28 <Bike> you ain't kiddin here
20:44:51 <Bike> giant fucking thumbs
20:44:52 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
20:45:07 <oerjan> and accidentally making every comment bold
20:45:40 <Bike> i almost want to know why they're not doing "singularity" crap any more but then i'd have to pay attention to them...
20:46:02 <kmc> they sold the word "singularity" to Singularity University
20:46:21 <oerjan> and also breaking comment formatting.
20:46:21 <kmc> and replaced all their references to it with "intelligence explosion" or something
20:46:33 <Bike> i can't tell how joking you are
20:46:45 <kmc> shrug, this is the story i heard
20:46:46 <oerjan> next, they will replace it by "suffusion of yellow" (nomic joke)
20:47:37 <Bike> overcurious yellow (book joke??)
20:48:10 <kmc> dongs (dong joke)
20:49:33 <fizzie> FireFly: The other ones do actually interesting lines (well, allegedly) too, just rarely.
20:49:40 <olsner> oerjan: what's recursive mode?
20:49:54 <fungot> oerjan: come on, nobody's allowed to use it as a guide, where the module system in scheme
20:49:55 <fizzie> kmc: Now I've installed Xen in a qemu and it's entirely your fault.
20:50:13 -!- snuffeluffegus has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:54:02 <lexande> Bike: what kmc said re: "singularity" is entirely correct/not a joke
20:54:44 <Bike> i wwas afraid of that
20:55:00 <Bike> i didn't even know "singularity" was trademarked
20:55:54 <kmc> i don't know if it's a legal thing or just "we want to not get confused with you guys"
20:55:57 <oerjan> <boily> “fnord java has a consistent api with a design in mind” <-- it's like java, except designed by the illuminati and therefore much more powerful.
20:56:18 <lexande> Bike: it was not trademarked
20:56:40 <Bike> so was it actually sold or what
20:56:50 <olsner> fizzie: are you going to make xenrust now?
20:57:02 <fizzie> olsner: I sure hope not.
20:57:15 <fizzie> olsner: But I suppose I'll fiddle with at least something that runs under PV Xen.
20:57:32 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe I'll make a Xefunge-98 interpreter to run fungot on.
20:57:32 <fungot> fizzie: but it creates an object
20:57:57 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, well, never mind then.
20:57:58 <fungot> fizzie: but the generated core is less clever ( no real optimisations) but a lot
20:58:07 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm sure it wouldn't be very clever.
20:58:48 <olsner> did you find some nice documentation on how to build a PV something for running in xen?
21:00:17 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
21:00:34 <Bike> wait, no, i'm paying attention, oops
21:01:07 <kmc> fizzie: btw I saw there are already some mailing list posts about rust on xen
21:01:18 <kmc> and you could definitely ask in #rust on irc.mozilla.org
21:01:44 <shachaf> wait can i sell words to people
21:01:52 <shachaf> kmc: want to buy some good words
21:02:05 <kmc> which ones tho
21:02:16 <shachaf> if i tell you you might steal them!!
21:02:38 <kmc> we need a zero knowledge proof
21:03:06 <lexande> Bike: the former "Singularity Institute" sold the singularity.org domain name to "Singularity University", along with the rights to run the "Singularity Summit" conference and an agreement not to use the word "singularity" much anymore
21:03:55 <lexande> which kind of reminds me of when London realised they needed to replace London Bridge
21:04:12 <lexande> and somebody had the bright idea that they could probably get somebody to buy the old one
21:04:21 <Fiora> so like, they cashed out the name?
21:04:36 <fizzie> kmc: I saw that too, and it didn't seem like there was anything else than those mailing list posts. (I guess I'll proceed to a Rust channel if I "master" Xen. Though it didn't really seem all too tricky, just... fiddly with page tables and such.)
21:04:54 <kmc> 420 smoke page tables every day
21:05:15 <lexande> Fiora: yes. though also i don't think they wanted to be associated with the term "singularity" so much anymore anyway
21:05:19 <fizzie> olsner: No, but I found all kinds of bits and pieces that could charitably be called documentation that did form some sort of a coherent picture.
21:05:48 <kmc> lexande: why not
21:06:28 <Fiora> lexande: makes sense
21:07:21 <fizzie> olsner: Things like a 2006 paper on details of how the x86-64 XenLinux PV port was done (which incidentally had nice information on Xen's architecture), and some slideshows on the topic of Xen memory management, and of course there's *some* documentation also in the docs/ of the Xen repository -- and esp. in xen.h, the hypercall API spec -- it's just quite unorganized.
21:09:09 <oerjan> FireFly: now you've seen it
21:09:29 <Bike> apparently my lab was attacked by china yesterday. yay internet
21:09:59 <fizzie> olsner: And a bit temporally variable. Like, the standard PV guest kernel is an ELF executable, but they have two redundant ways of specifying the Xen-specific where-to-load-it stuff: a "__xen_guest" section at the start of the file with the data in an ASCII string, now deprecated; and a whole set of Xen-specific ELF "note" sections, which is the modern preferred way.
21:10:34 <lexande> kmc: because the term "singularity" had come to refer too much to general technoyay and not particular ideas about AI, and was a somewhat poor term for the latter anyway
21:10:53 <lexande> kmc: and because focus on the term probably makes them seem more cultish
21:12:10 <fizzie> olsner: (Plus as an alternative to a "kernel" line there's also a "bootloader" line that at least PyGrub -- a thing that lets PV guests boot a kernel "from the inside" -- uses, and that has some sort of a protocol, but I haven't found out what it was. And then there's the fact that a "kernel" line can specify a stock Linux (xen pvops-enabled) kernel which certainly isn't an ELF file, I haven't ...
21:12:16 <fizzie> ... really found details on that yet.)
21:12:25 <lexande> which is a problem they have enough as it is
21:12:36 <oerjan> lexande: as opposed to "intelligence explosion" *cough*
21:13:04 <lexande> well that's not in their name anymore
21:13:09 <boily> oerjan: one: you found the swatter? two: why FireFly?
21:13:13 <kmc> it's adorable how this cult tries so hard to not sound like a cult
21:13:17 <olsner> I think linux kernels are normally ELF files, because qemu's -kernel options takes an ELF kernel
21:13:28 <lexande> but yes "intelligence explosion" is less vague and mystical-sounding
21:13:31 <oerjan> boily: i have always had the swatter. also, flies need swatting.
21:13:38 <olsner> but for a Xen kernel you might need those extra notes perhaps
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21:14:05 <boily> oerjan: makes sense. now I remember having had to swat someone this morning, but I can't recall whom.
21:14:18 <lexande> kmc: i think there are cults that try harder
21:14:18 <kmc> olsner: really, it doesn't take a zImage / bzImage?
21:14:21 <kmc> maybe both
21:14:38 <fizzie> olsner: There certainly isn't a ELF header at the start of a bzImage.
21:15:08 <lexande> e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_Forum
21:15:09 <olsner> I think-know it takes ELFs and multiboot images at least, but it might take zimages and bzimages as well
21:15:34 <fizzie> olsner: Well, it wouldn't be very surprising if Xen did too.
21:15:35 <kmc> i think you get an ELF kernel as part of the kernel build process but it's not generally considered the final result
21:15:40 <kmc> (unless you're building UML, of course!)
21:15:43 <FireFly> boily: I've gotten used to it
21:16:08 <kmc> also I like that Linux still doesn't use multiboot despite GRUB being the preferred bootloader on PC hardware
21:16:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
21:16:39 <olsner> do any mainstream oses actually use multiboot?
21:16:40 <FireFly> Hurry up already, HackEgo. you can do it
21:16:57 <boily> on my current machine I'm stuck with a legacy grub that I fear to update due to a stupid rm -rf made in /var one day...
21:17:08 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, and that PyGrub is a Python thing that runs in dom0 and reads a kernel from the guest filesystem using filesystem drivers extracted from GRUB -- but there's also PvGrub, which runs a paravirtualized variant of Grub inside the domU and boots like that.
21:17:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24793
21:17:26 <olsner> multiboot seems to be mostly used for "OSes not big enough to build their own system and convince a boot loader to support it"
21:17:37 <oerjan> boily: it was shachaf, but i have a rule about not swatting shachaf because he likes it too much.
21:17:42 <fizzie> olsner: The idea being that if you have a bug in the filesystem drivers, a maliciously crafted guest filesystem can't infect the dom0.
21:18:48 <fizzie> I think NetBSD at least supports building the kernel as a multiboot image.
21:18:55 <fizzie> Not sure if it's standard practice or not.
21:19:03 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some kind of a kludge like that for Linux too.
21:19:29 <shachaf> does this have to do with pizza
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21:20:16 <boily> shachaf: if you like swatting yourself with pizza, then yes, it is you that were.
21:20:52 <shachaf> i wasn't aware that i liked being swatted
21:22:33 <fizzie> olsner: Besides, isn't GNU Hurd a mainstream OS?
21:23:43 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, and the Xen hypervisor itself is a multiboot image, that's the only supported way to boot it. Though it doesn't quite qualify as an OS, probably.
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21:24:36 * kmc make -j8 || make -j8
21:24:57 <kmc> fizzie: my housemate geofft keeps threatening to add more of a userspace to GRUB
21:24:59 <olsner> I haven't quite understood how Xen works though, is there an actual hypervisor outside the dom0 kernel?
21:25:42 <boily> why make after make?
21:25:45 <kmc> iirc yes, the dom0 kernel is also paravirtualized, it just has special powers to ask the hypervisor to do things
21:25:50 <kmc> boily: because sometimes it fails the first time.
21:26:36 <fizzie> kmc: To do... what, exactly?
21:26:44 <boily> kmc: that's vile, but it's make, so nothing surprising there.
21:27:02 <Bike> to make sure it's make'd
21:27:07 <kmc> boot up new domUs i guess
21:27:09 <kmc> and kill them
21:27:11 <kmc> and do things to them
21:27:18 <fizzie> kmc: Also to talk directly to hardware.
21:27:52 <fizzie> kmc: And the "To do... what" was referring to the GRUB userspace. :p
21:30:21 <Bike> to boot things up and kill them and do things to them
21:31:02 <fizzie> These days there are also "driver domains", which is a unprivileged domain that's been given dominion over a particular hardware device, and it runs a pruned kernel with a driver for that piece of hardware; the idea being, again, that if the driver borks, rest of the system will survive and can even try restarting the driver domain.
21:31:07 <kmc> fizzie: oh
21:31:36 <kmc> fizzie: uh to do various crypto things relating to secure boot, I think, but really because GRUB is the GNU kernel and it needs a userspace
21:31:46 <Bike> "Reading Surfaces and Essences is like biting an apple and finding half a worm. It's like a pancake eating contest. It is the Phantom Menace of cognitive science literature."
21:31:53 <fizzie> There's that GRUB Invaders already, though.
21:31:59 <fizzie> So I guess it's got games.
21:32:36 <fizzie> Though I suppose it's not really part of the "GRUB userland" since it's a "kernel" started by GRUB.
21:33:55 <elliott> kmc: can you implement POSIX on top of GRUB?
21:34:19 <kmc> bold questions
21:35:24 <olsner> does posix require virtual memory and preemptive multitasking?
21:37:46 <boily> does a fungot produce sane sentences?
21:37:46 <fungot> boily: egads, a giant fuss.
21:37:47 <fizzie> Anyhoo, most of the complexities described in the PV-XenLinux paper were about trying to paravirtualize Linux with the least amount of changes, and to deal with the fact that it needs to separate guest-kernel from guest-userspace while both are in ring 3, which made it sound like porting a language (in a single-application scenario) could be simpler; no need to start with something that ...
21:37:53 <fizzie> ... expects to run on real hardware, and safety for the "userland" because of what it's written in plus it's all in the same boat anyway.
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21:39:27 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think threads are optional at least in current POSIX.
21:39:38 <fizzie> Some other bits (the ones with feature codes) are.
21:40:00 <Bike> is it required that threads use preemptive multitasking
21:40:01 <fizzie> Like TCT for "Thread CPU-Time Clocks" and TPS for "Thread Execution Scheduling".
21:40:18 <fizzie> Have to see what that TPS means.
21:40:28 <Bike> no i like this expansion
21:40:38 <olsner> oh well, whatever is missing to implement POSIX I guess you'd just have to add it to grub and that'd be that
21:43:58 <fizzie> Bike: Good, because I don't know if I can wade through the POSIXtalk of the "Thread Scheduling" section to see what it really means.
21:44:17 <fizzie> "If the Thread Execution Scheduling option is defined, and the schedpolicy attribute specifies one of the priority-based policies defined under this option, the schedparam attribute contains the scheduling priority of the thread. A conforming implementation ensures that the priority value in schedparam is in the range associated with the scheduling policy when the thread attributes object is ...
21:44:23 <fizzie> ... used to create a thread, or when the scheduling attributes of a thread are dynamically modified."
21:44:26 <fizzie> It's that sort of stuff.
21:44:32 <Bike> the important thing is i'm imagining a system that just runs threads one after another.
21:44:55 <fizzie> Like, not even cooperatively multitasking them?
21:44:55 <olsner> some kind of time-sharing system?
21:45:09 <Bike> yeah, just one at a time. would that conform?
21:45:44 <fizzie> I don't know about the letter of the law, but it's quite clearly not within the spirit of it.
21:46:36 <Bike> coward. let's do this. kmc call your friend, it's time to write the Incompatible Timestealing System
21:47:06 <fizzie> Though the only explicit mentions of preemption do seem to be in sections marked with TPS and PS ("Process Scheduling").
21:48:31 <fizzie> Bike: I guess that could sort of work if your threads would do things like "okay, has the operation I'm waiting for completed yet? no? well, let's spawn a new thread and exit, and hope something else gets scheduled in-between".
21:49:21 <Bike> that's basically cooperative multitasking, innit
21:49:34 <fizzie> Well, no, that'd be "let's yield and continue".
21:49:42 <fizzie> It's a crucial semantic difference.
21:50:22 <fizzie> Well, you see, the thing that gets to continue would be a completely new thread and not just a continuation of some old.
21:50:36 <Bike> but it would work out pretty similarly. right?
21:50:56 <fizzie> Mmmmaybe if you want to focus on practical notions, but I mean, spiritually!
21:51:16 <fizzie> The new threads would be free of all the emotional baggage of their predecessors and mumble mumble hype hype.
21:51:34 <Bike> you're right, i shouldn't neglect the spiritual dimension. maybe i'll take a tour of duty in a hadoop monastery
21:51:45 <olsner> emotional baggage is probably the biggest performance sink in modern multitasking system
21:58:37 <oerjan> i think maybe the Incompatible Timestealing System should use a firm LIFO policy on running.
21:59:41 <fizzie> oerjan: To prevent nasty hacks like the aforementioned crude attempt at emulating cöpperated multitasking?
22:00:10 <Bike> good thinking, good thinkin
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23:00:46 <kmc> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cubic+light+year+of+butter
23:01:58 <ion> It should tell how many animals were killed for that.
23:02:36 <Fiora> wouldn't that collapse into a black hole?
23:02:57 <Fiora> actually isn't that already a black hole. like. isn't the schwarzchild radius of that bigger
23:03:06 <ion> ITYM yellow hole
23:03:15 <impomatic> I still haven't managed to find the source code for Jintori, the 2D programming language :-(
23:03:49 <Fiora> ((1 light year)^3) * ((0.96 grams) per (cubic centimeter)) = 4.08658746 × 10^20 solar masses
23:03:52 <Fiora> okay um. that's big
23:04:45 <kmc> so you get a black hole if you have enough matter even if it's not very dense?
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23:06:51 <Fiora> black holes aren't really that dense
23:08:42 <Fiora> a 1 billion solar mass black hole is 50 times less dense than water
23:10:01 <Fiora> the schwarzchild radius grows linearly with the mass, so the density drops with the cube of the mass, I think?
23:10:07 <Fiora> erm, the square of the mass
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23:14:46 <kmc> but there is some minimum density right?
23:14:58 <kmc> like if you have just a huge diffuse cloud of hydrogen, that won't eventually form into a black hole will it
23:15:34 <oerjan> um you know how stars get formed don't you...
23:15:38 <kmc> not really
23:15:54 <oerjan> well, you start with a huge diffuse cloud of hydrogen...
23:16:19 <Bike> can't you form the helium through fusion.
23:16:26 <kmc> how is sttar formed, how fusion get ignated
23:16:43 <oerjan> well you _can_ it's just that primordial matter is about 25% helium
23:17:03 <pikhq> Bike: Yes. The helium isn't necessary, it just so happens that you don't have clouds of pure hydrogen, you have clouds of mostly hydrogen.
23:17:42 <oerjan> then you get a star, and if it is big enough, part of it will eventually form a black hole once it stops fusioning.
23:17:59 <kmc> while it's fusioning the energy going out keeps it from collapsing?
23:18:11 <Fiora> that's the idea of stars, the energy from fusion counteracts gravity
23:18:19 <kmc> convenient
23:18:33 <Fiora> interesting thing I remember reading the other day, the largest any cold astronomical body can get is about the size of jupiter
23:18:50 <Fiora> it can get bigger while being hot (fusion) like a star
23:18:53 <oerjan> also the final stage is sufficiently violent that most of the mass actually gets thrown out rather than collapsing.
23:18:57 <Fiora> but like, a big cold object will just shrink because of gravity
23:19:11 <oerjan> (you may have heard of "supernovas")
23:19:13 <Fiora> that's why white dwarfs get smaller as they get heavier
23:19:19 <Fiora> and then neutron stars also get smaller as they get heavier
23:19:39 <kmc> whereas I get bigger as I get heavier
23:19:50 <pikhq> Only up to a certain point.
23:19:54 <kmc> but I'm made of metal
23:20:03 <pikhq> If you eat solar systems you'll get smaller as well.
23:20:18 <pikhq> Note, don't eat solar systems.
23:20:24 <Fiora> I like my solar system :<
23:20:30 <kmc> i won't eat *your* solar system Fiora
23:20:32 <Fiora> kmc: you'll get bigger up until about the size of jupiter, then you'll get smaller
23:20:34 <kmc> just some spare one
23:20:54 <shachaf> kmc: are you eating solar systems................it's bad for you
23:21:30 <lexande> in moderation it can still be part of a healthy diet
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23:21:55 <Fiora> technically I guess I eat part of a solar system every day?
23:21:58 <Fiora> since like. my food is part of Earth
23:22:17 <pikhq> I never thought about this. Apparently outside the event horizon is a sphere where photons that happen to be moving tangential to the sphere will be in orbit around the black hole.
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23:22:21 <pikhq> *Photons*. In orbit.
23:22:28 <Fiora> I thought that's the ISCO?
23:22:41 <Fiora> or um. like. it's a little farther ouside the event horizon or something
23:22:56 <pikhq> 1.5 times the Schwarzschild radius.
23:24:03 <pikhq> Light can still escape from there, it just so happens that objects moving at speed C tangent to the black hole's event horizon are in orbit there.
23:24:25 <Fiora> so like, at the event horizon, the only light that will escape is that pointing directly up
23:24:34 <Fiora> and at the ISCO, light pointing tangentially is at the border of escaping
23:24:38 <Fiora> that makes sense...
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00:01:35 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
00:02:10 -!- anthony2 has left.
00:03:59 <oerjan> i wonder if we're included in some kind of list of "spanish" irc channels
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00:04:42 <kmc> I think we decided it's because the name starts with 'es'
00:05:23 <oerjan> yes, but maybe there's still some autogenerated list somewhere
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00:21:59 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Speed1c.png
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00:29:05 <kmc> nope, just a 14-speed internal hub gear for bicycles
00:29:11 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohloff_Speedhub
00:30:07 <kmc> it's about $1200 apparently
00:33:43 <kmc> "Rohloff still claim never to have had a hub fail and the greatest distance claimed for a Rohloff hub in 2009 was 145,000km"
00:46:53 <Sgeo> syntax-case is probably confusing to talk about. syntax-case isn't all there is to syntax-case, and arguably the syntax-case in the syntax-case mechanism is optional
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01:45:10 <Bike> never fails? for a mechanical gear? that would be impressive
01:48:09 <Bike> i guess it's impressive on its own though, that's a pretty shiny lookin diagram
01:49:05 <Bike> oh, no external components, i guess that would help lasting
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02:07:10 <Sgeo> elliott: http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/10/lets-audit-truecrypt.html?showComment=1381802478312
02:07:18 <Sgeo> err, why was showComment in that URL
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02:21:27 <shachaf> i bought a dvd and now i remember my dvd drive doesn't work
02:24:56 <pikhq> They cost like $15.
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02:41:06 <HackEgo> 4000000000000000/45359237 (approx. 8.818490487395103e7)
02:43:40 <quintopia> pikhq: can you transliterate the name taku yushihara for me? not being nipponese myself, i'm not even sure which is the family name...
02:44:07 <Bike> can you even reliably make up kanji for a given name
02:44:50 <pikhq> And I can only *guess* that that name is supposed to be Taku YUSHIHARA, rather than TAKU Yushihara.
02:45:08 <pikhq> (Yushihara seems more last-name-ish)
02:45:47 <quintopia> well, i want to look him up on facebook, but i don't think he used the english phonetic...
02:46:21 <pikhq> WWWJDIC doesn't have an entry for YUSHIHARA, so Imma guess it's a stupidly rare surname.
02:46:34 <pikhq> In which case the god damned kanji could be anything.
02:46:53 <pikhq> And there's like a dozen possible kanji for Taku.
02:47:16 <pikhq> Which is either a given name or a family name.
02:47:32 <pikhq> So, without asking the person him/herself, I cannot possibly know.
02:47:57 <pikhq> Japanese names suck.
02:48:42 <pikhq> Basically, it is nigh-impossible to map between readings and characters for names.
02:48:54 <Bike> it's just lossy innit
02:49:30 <Bike> i never really understand when it comes up in the animes. i just assume all japanese people wear nametags
02:49:58 <pikhq> No, I mean that any given reading could have multiple character choices, and any given characters could have multiple possible readings.
02:50:46 <quintopia> what an ambiguous typographical system
02:51:04 <quintopia> not that english is too much better
02:51:58 <Fiora> it's really only quite that bad for names
02:52:16 <Fiora> it's not impolite to ask someone how to write their name, if I remember right it's pretty common
02:52:56 <shachaf> pikhq: how do you write your name
02:53:00 <pikhq> The normal writing system has funny weird cases where it's ambiguous, but for a competent speaker it's not a problem.
02:54:16 <shachaf> My speakers are not competent. :-( Sometimes they make clicking or buzzing noises for no obvious reason.
02:54:25 <shachaf> Well, I think the buzzing is software.
02:55:26 <Bike> how do you wriiiiite it though
02:55:40 <Bike> but the kanji!
02:55:46 <Bike> katakana are for like, foreiegners, maaaaan
02:56:21 <pikhq> What am I, Japanese?
02:56:32 <Bike> just like my animes
02:57:17 * pikhq suspects "Josiah Worcester" is way too English to be Japanese.
02:57:57 <Bike> do you pronounce "worcester" in the pleb way or the massachusetts way
02:58:20 <pikhq> Vaguely like "Wuhster"?
02:58:50 <Bike> therrrrre you go
02:58:57 <pikhq> Always amused me that people have trouble with Worcestershire.
02:58:59 <Bike> rhoticism is pleb though.
02:59:31 <pikhq> Or that people like inserting an h in the spelling.
02:59:37 <pikhq> "Worchester" it is not.
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03:01:35 <pikhq> I can freaking spell it for people and they insert an h.
03:01:48 <pikhq> And then there's people who somehow screw up my first name.
03:01:59 <pikhq> C'mon, "Josiah" is not a rare name.
03:02:13 <shachaf> I have no idea how to pronounce it.
03:03:52 <pikhq> Weird anglicisation of יֹאשִׁיָּהוּ
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03:16:19 <Sgeo> In... high school or middle school, I forget which, some librarian needed to write down my name, so I told her my name, and she asked "man?", and I thought she was asking if I was a man, so I said yes, and she wrote "Goldman"
03:17:06 <Bike> that's why i always introduce myself as Darkness O'Corvidkill.
03:23:54 <Fiora> Ebikeony Darkness Raven Way
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03:37:36 <quintopia> it seems like there should be a simpler way to make polyvariadic functions
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04:31:40 <zzo38> When I write my name in Japanese I write using the katakana for "Aaron" and the kanji for "Black".
04:32:06 <zzo38> Do you ever write your name in other languages than English and (if applicable) your language?
04:32:23 <pikhq> Yes, I write my name in Japanese.
04:32:37 <pikhq> English is my native language. :P
04:34:16 <shachaf> zzo38: how do i write my name in your language
04:34:37 <pikhq> Last name as typically transcribed by the handful of people needing to talk about Worcester, first name as it appears in Japanese Bible translations.
04:34:49 <zzo38> I saw that in the log but I forgot that is what it means
04:35:03 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know how *you* write your own name.
04:35:15 <kmc> zzo38: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/27881.html Implementing UEFI Boot to Zork
04:35:43 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I have seen UEFI to Zork
04:36:29 <pikhq> Also has the nice property that my name actually fits in 6 characters and isn't hard to pronounce for Japanese people.
04:36:59 <pikhq> Dear god, I cannot imagine having a transcription of a name like "Aldwinkle" in Japanese.
04:37:23 <zzo38> Although I think a more accurate interpreter than Frotz should be used; most (even Infocom's own interpreters) have errors, partially due to errors in a Z-Machine Standards Document, Infocom's own documents, and other things; even my interpreters (Fweep and Aimfiz) have what I found to be a few errors (I will fix them), despite being more accurate in general
04:38:54 <Bike> hm wi is obsolete or something isn't it
04:38:56 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is why my brother's name could fit in Super Smash Brothers Melee but not Brawl, despite Brawl allowing five letters and Melee only having four.
04:39:01 <pikhq> Bike: "Arudouxinkuru"
04:39:11 <Bike> pikhq: my next band
04:41:12 <zzo38> I use a kanji in my name although I think usually non-Japanese people don't do that (my brother also just transliterates the sound into katakana, although I prefer to use the kanji meaning "black")
04:41:32 <shachaf> is your brother ever in this channel
04:44:28 <zzo38> How often are quit messages in the quote file?
04:44:53 <shachaf> `run grep quit quotes | wc -l
04:45:59 <zzo38> trout: I don't know Hebrew writing very well.
04:46:22 <trout> zzo38: spelt in English as Eitan
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04:46:37 <trout> the englishified name is Ethan
04:46:49 <trout> pronouned as ATE a proTON
04:48:01 <zzo38> shachaf: You are just finding if it says "quit" not necessarily if it is a quit message (although maybe part messages should also be counted, if any)
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04:48:38 * trout likes his part message
04:49:22 <zzo38> There is no message.
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04:49:44 <zzo38> I always type in the message every time if applicable
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04:49:49 <zzo38> I always type in the message every time if applicable
04:49:52 <trout> zzo38: apperently /cycle doesn't leave the message
04:49:54 <zzo38> trout: OK it is working now
04:49:57 <trout> only /part then /join
04:50:24 <zzo38> I didn't create a macro to automatically make part/quit messages
04:50:42 <trout> there is a preference for a default message
04:51:32 <zzo38> Ah, OK. The client I use has no such preference so it would have to be a macro; maybe some other clients also have preference for a default message, and some don't have.
04:52:54 <zzo38> The client I use is simple and only has a few settings (other than macros, which it also has): ANSWER, AUTOPONG, COLS, FORMAT, IDLETIMER, ROWS, SHOWTIME, and USERINFO.
04:57:25 <zzo38> I am a bit curious to know what happens in various IRC clients when you give it the command to connect without telling it what to connect to? (In some clients this might not be possible, though)
04:58:21 <zzo38> What does Xchat do in such a case, or does it disable something in a dialog box before you type it in, or what?
05:00:26 <zzo38> Do you want to change your "/cycle" macro to leave the message, then?
05:08:26 <zzo38> Haskell's Typeable is mostly useful when you subclass it. Isn't it?
05:08:40 <zzo38> I don't think it is useful by itself.
05:12:13 <zzo38> I mean to do something like class Typeable x => XYZ x where { ... } (possibly there will be other classes mentioned before => as well) rather than using Typeable somewhere directly.
05:13:09 <zzo38> Have you ever used Typeable at all?
05:13:18 <kmc> is Data.Data.Data an example of such a typeclass
05:13:23 <kmc> (best name ever for a typeclass)
05:15:09 <zzo38> It is something that uses it, but not the examples I was thinking of.
05:15:24 <kmc> what sort of example did you have in mind?
05:15:47 <zzo38> Things like Control.Exception.Exception and Graphics.DVI.Node
05:16:23 <zzo38> (I figured out this kind of technique independently from them; but these kind of things would be common in mathematics and related stuff anyways)
05:17:04 <zzo38> Although Data.Data.Data does count too
05:18:12 <zzo38> (The methods for Exception don't seem particularly meaningful)
05:25:35 <ion> fix (Data.)
05:26:18 <kmc> http://b.igdata.co/
05:27:15 <ion> http://heh.fi/gates/
05:34:20 <elliott> zzo38: the methods for Exception are used to let you do "subtyping" of exceptions
05:43:59 <zzo38> elliott: Ah, OK yes I suppose that is what it can be useful for, you seem to be correct.
05:44:07 <zzo38> I didn't think of that.
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07:25:36 <fizzie> "File size: . Are you sure you want to download this Corpus now?" Well, now, I'm not sure I have . space available.
07:26:15 <zzo38> What Corpus is this and what are you downloading it from?
07:27:14 <fizzie> It's from LDC, and it's just some speech stuff.
07:28:17 <zzo38> Is it HTTP or FTP? If it is HTTP you can try a HEAD request (I did this with something else that failed to display the filesize correctly). If it is Google then a HEAD request might not work (Google has a really bad implementation of HTTP)
07:29:35 <kmc> corpus callosum
07:37:37 <Taneb> I need to write a 1000 word essay describing a "classic publication in computer science"
07:43:49 <Taneb> I'm thinking about doing it on On Computable Numbers With An Application To The Entscheidungsproblem
07:48:55 <kmc> that's a good one
07:49:12 <kmc> you could write about _Reflections on Trusting Trust_ and its relevance to the paranoid dystopian world we live in today
07:49:26 <fizzie> LDC is the Linguistic Data Consortium, and it's behind a login thing, so testing with HEAD might be a bit iffy. Though I have the approximate sizes from elsewhere, so it's no big problem that this download system doesn't show them correctly.
07:49:39 <Taneb> I... think that may be slightly to recent to be considered classical, kmc
07:51:18 * kmc looks up when it was published
07:51:29 <fizzie> Taneb: Depending on how widely "computer science" is interpreted there, there's also A Mathematical Theory of Communication, that's a classic too.
07:53:02 <Taneb> kmc, wow, that far back?
07:53:11 <Taneb> I was under the impression it was from like 2011
07:53:22 <shachaf> _Reflections on Trusting Trust_ is barely longer than 1000 words itself.
07:54:57 <kmc> sure that's why the essay is secretly a review of _Glasshouse_ and a rant about the NSA
07:58:42 <Taneb> I think one slight problem I'm having with my course is that it assumes no prior programming experience, so is teaching us all Python
08:02:57 <Taneb> That bit of the course is all very basic and going quite slowly
08:06:32 <kmc> is it time-consuming
08:07:02 <Taneb> Four hours a week, so not too much
08:09:06 <olsner> you should also include the hours spent on writing essays about stuff
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08:09:25 <Taneb> olsner, in the programming module there hasn't been any of that yet but it's about to start
08:10:00 <olsner> oh, that was different course from the essay you were writing?
08:11:31 <Taneb> I've got I think 6 modules
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09:53:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: did elliott want to play dwarf fortress
09:54:58 <Taneb> Well, not right now
09:55:07 <Taneb> I'm slightly in a Python practical
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11:05:25 <Taneb> I think I'll start working on this essay now
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13:04:12 <fizzie> How lovely, variables "hp" and "Hp" that serve different purposes.
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13:14:36 <boily> fizzie: it could be even more tortuous, with subtle greek and cyrillic letters mixed in.
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14:42:08 <boily> I just stumbled on a SO comment by oerjan.
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16:17:33 <Taneb> Someone told me today there was one paper by Alan Turing that I was explicitly not allowed to write this essay on
16:17:44 <Taneb> I checked just now and it turns out it's the other one
16:18:30 <Taneb> Computing Machinery and Intelligence
16:18:38 <Taneb> I was going to write my essay on On Computable Numbers, with an Application to the Entscheidungs problem
16:19:03 <coppro> entscheidungsproblem is one word
16:19:19 <Taneb> coppro, yeah but I was copy-pasting it from somewhere that was wrong because I'm lazy
16:19:20 <coppro> Bike: Turing has one Paper and a bunch of papers
16:21:17 <Taneb> "You can choose any publication within the area
16:21:17 <Taneb> of computer science; the only restriction is that you cannot choose Turing’s “Computing
16:21:17 <Taneb> Machinery and Intelligence” or any publication whose main topic is the Turing test.1"
16:23:04 <zzo38> It is mentioned variables "hp" and "Hp" being different? Someone also mentioned being confusing if you mixed it with Greek, but that isn't a problem if non-ASCII characters aren't allowed in variable names (I prefer not to allow non-ASCII anywhere except comments, string literals, and character literals, and in all such cases can be any encoding following Principle of Extended ASCII; UTF-8 is one such encoding).
16:23:30 <zzo38> And I have done things where "VERSION" and "version" are two different macros.
16:25:34 <fizzie> zzo38: The code in question seemed to have a convention that if "foo" was something, "Foo" was some processed version of it; there were more pairs like that.
16:27:01 <zzo38> I suppose that can be such a convention. (In my program I had no such convention; furthermore I didn't notice I had given these things similar names until afterward)
16:31:12 <zzo38> (Also in mine they are macros, not variables, although "version" expands into something that can be used as an lvalue but never is used that way)
16:32:37 <Phantom___Hoover> Taneb, was this because they were sick of everyone writing essays on the turing test
16:32:46 <Taneb> It really sounds like it
16:33:37 <Bike> shame. i'm sure they'd love my essay on ESP
16:36:32 <Bike> computing machinery and intelligence isn't a very mathy paper, anyway, and presumably this is a math class
16:37:14 <Taneb> Bike, it's a Computer Science class
16:38:05 <Phantom___Hoover> are you doing maths with computer science or straight CS, i keep forgetting
16:39:57 <Phantom___Hoover> (it doesn't help that in warwick that's called discrete maths)
16:40:38 <mnoqy> why do you have to write an essay on a turing thing. what the heck
16:41:43 <zzo38> The descrpition given why "idso" Deadfish isn't acceptable in dc, fails to mention that it is because "s" requires to put another letter afterward.
16:41:43 <Taneb> mnoqy, I have to write an essay on a classic paper in computer science
16:42:21 <Bike> what's weird about reading old papers.
16:42:36 <mnoqy> ther'es nothing weird about reading old papers
16:42:51 <mnoqy> what's weird is having to write an essay about them for a cs class
16:43:17 <Bike> why? it gets students to read and thin about old papers.
16:43:29 <Phantom___Hoover> having students familiarise themselves with the literature on their subject of choice is indeed weird and pointless
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16:45:10 <boily> having... students... think?
16:45:37 <Phantom___Hoover> you'd almost think not everyone did a load of amateur study outside of university
16:48:00 <Jafet> A computer science degree certifies that you have been learning the right programming languages since preschool
16:48:33 <Jafet> ...and, in this case, also that you can write an essay
16:49:12 <Jafet> Is the simplexity analysis paper considered classic
16:49:35 <Phantom___Hoover> just do church's one or something, you get bonus hipster cred for that
16:53:12 <fizzie> How about "On certain formal properties of grammars"?
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17:01:49 <oerjan> <boily> I just stumbled on a SO comment by oerjan. <-- i was slightly active there for a while, sadly i never properly registered, and all my points disappeared when the cookies or whatever had expired after a prolonged absense.
17:02:12 <oerjan> or well, i guess the points are still there, i just don't have access to that profile.
17:03:55 <oerjan> hm searching for "Ørjan Johansen" gives one hit which is not me :(
17:04:42 <boily> there are otherjans on the Planet? that's shocking!
17:04:56 <Taneb> oerjan, help I'm not evil enough
17:05:51 <zzo38> Not evil enough for what?
17:05:58 <Taneb> zzo38, to be a supervillain
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17:07:02 <zzo38> Then don't be a supervillain!
17:08:07 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't like cats :(
17:08:15 <Taneb> I find them a bit scary
17:08:17 <oerjan> ah there's the problem.
17:08:34 <zzo38> Do you prefer rats?
17:08:36 <fizzie> You can start with a cat facsimile.
17:08:38 <zzo38> Or, perhaps, hats?
17:09:04 <oerjan> i think bats would also do.
17:09:08 <fizzie> Or with some sort of a starter cat.
17:09:19 <oerjan> although you may then need some dental adjustment.
17:09:55 <oerjan> now, bats _and_ rats, then we have a good basis for a supervillain.
17:10:37 <zzo38> You don't need bats and rats to have a basis for a supervillain.
17:10:44 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131016-starter-cat.png that's not at all what I was looking for.
17:10:54 <zzo38> Nor does it really help, but it doesn't hurt, either.
17:11:03 <oerjan> zzo38: there are of course many possible bases.
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17:11:34 <oerjan> btw the rats in question should be plague infected.
17:11:47 <zzo38> No, plague isn't necessary.
17:13:26 <oerjan> zzo38: how can the arrival of your apparently unmanned ship in the harbor cause proper terror if it doesn't have plague-infested rats?
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17:13:58 <oerjan> we got neither a hi nor ads.
17:14:16 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, there is the other way.
17:15:11 <zzo38> If you hear ghosts in the ship then maybe it might cause "proper" terror
17:15:17 <oerjan> oh. a supervillain could also be based on vats. the larger the better.
17:15:54 <Taneb> I hear Stalin did very well with only secretariats!
17:16:09 <zzo38> Yes, secretary is good enough.
17:16:31 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't think plaits has the right pronunciation?
17:16:37 <boily> secretarian gnat-rat mutagenic hybrids. that I would be scared of.
17:16:39 <Taneb> oerjan, it does with my accent?
17:16:47 <zzo38> Rats, bats, hats, cats, secretaries, computers, etc can be even if you are not a supervillain, I suppose.
17:16:52 <oerjan> Taneb: hm i guess it's an evil accent.
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17:17:01 <Taneb> oerjan, well, I am British, after all
17:17:36 <boily> stupid google translate. en:plait → fr:plait.
17:17:51 <oerjan> also a good basic supervillain policy is tits for tats
17:18:37 <boily> oh. apparently en:plaits is fr:tresses. much better.
17:19:11 <fizzie> plait /n./ 2. †c. fig. A complication, an aberration; a quirk, a snag, a wrinkle; something obscured, concealed, or hidden away, esp. in order to mislead or deceive; a kink, a dodge, a trick. Obs.
17:20:06 <oerjan> i understand aberrations may be supervillains. Mr. Kjugobe of course excepted.
17:21:04 <fizzie> 1589 G. Puttenham Arte Eng. Poesie iii. xxiv. 245 Oportet iudicem esse rudem & simplicem, without plaite or wrinkle, sower in looke and churlish in speach.
17:21:12 <Taneb> oerjan, wiktionary says "plait" can be pronounced either way
17:21:26 <zzo38> Of course it is possible, but so may someone else be supervillains. Mr. Kjugobe is of course excepted, but other thing can also be exception possibly.
17:23:25 <oerjan> i am still wondering whether sir vulpus of yafgc is an exception or an example. the claims were divided.
17:23:36 <oerjan> (and the story arc isn't over yet.)
17:23:46 <boily> fungot: kjugobe? vulpus? yafgc?
17:23:47 <fungot> boily: yes i do gregor. he wore a different hat every fnord insanely good coder, either?)
17:24:15 <fungot> Taneb: hackish. maybe but it just looks... obese and confusing... i like watching that trace :)
17:24:38 <oerjan> boily: yafgc is a web comic (some times nsfw.) kjugobe is zzo38's d&d character, an illithid (and thus an aberration.)
17:25:33 <oerjan> vulpus is a character mentioned in passing in the former as part of the current arc's background story.
17:26:51 <boily> I never illithided. too much repulsion.
17:27:23 <boily> zzo38: how do you pronounce your char's name? /kjugɔbe/?
17:27:43 <zzo38> boily: Kind of like that, yes.
17:27:57 <zzo38> (Actually their full name is: Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe.)
17:28:20 <oerjan> (he was a werewolf. the not entirely answered question is whether he was a very good or a very evil werewolf. although one of the sides seems to have lost a lot of believability.)
17:28:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Is he necessarily either?
17:29:49 <oerjan> zzo38: it is of course possible that both sides exaggerated their claims.
17:29:59 * boily tries to pronounce his first name as if IPA... “juck... juckqlw *cough*...”
17:31:00 <zzo38> I made it up using a algorithm designed to make up name by rolling a d6 and d20 dice, except that I programmed it into the TI-92 calculator instead. It is OK if the name is difficult for humanity.
17:33:04 <boily> my paranoia character is named “Shlebesh Gurgudugurgudu”, with some random generation number stuck at the end.
17:33:19 <boily> (we lost track a long time ago, what with the multiple deaths and other mishaps...)
17:33:56 <oerjan> i though paranoia names were shorter than that.
17:34:22 <oerjan> and had a color character in the middle.
17:34:48 <oerjan> although i guess that's not permanent.
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17:35:32 <boily> well, it's usually shortened to just “Shle”.
17:38:54 <zzo38> I shorten my character's name to just "Kjugobe" since there isn't anyone else of that name in context.
17:41:04 <zzo38> Although the name "Gxxyuxihuvxi" is really difficult to pronounce, so I never do.
17:42:03 <zzo38> Instead we call Gxxyuxihuvxi "the god who shall not be named because it is difficult to pronounce".
17:42:16 <oerjan> zzo38: i think it's not that hard if you do the x'es as ipa [x]
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17:43:06 <zzo38> oerjan: Maybe, but I don't think that is quite the way
17:43:11 <oerjan> assuming you can pronounce that sound in the first place
17:48:19 <zzo38> I am not sure what it is but I will look it up in Wikipedia
17:49:52 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative
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17:50:32 <zzo38> Yes that is the one I found
17:52:55 <zzo38> I don't really like the IPA symbols; the consonants and vowels are arranged in a grid and I would use combined symbol corresponding to what row and column of the grid they would belong in, and voice/unvoice variant, etc
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17:55:48 <boily> zzo38: that may result in interesting compound characters, like labialized-pharyngealized-spirant labiodental syllabic plosive with no audible release.
17:56:25 <boily> (also known as the “PFSHSHSHHHTHTHT” sound.)
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17:56:41 <zzo38> boily: Yes, allowing compounds like that too
18:01:40 <oerjan> yay i managed to recover my stackoverflow user
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18:08:28 <Vorpal> The hell just happened to Steam? I was trying to put in some activation codes, and it was one copy and paste behind if that makes sense. Like it pasted the last code I entered before this instead. Which was bloody weeks ago. Then on the next attempt it pasted one I actually copied. And when I put in yet another code (I was adding the latest humble bundle, so there were a few to add in) it kept being one
18:09:46 <Vorpal> That was super strange
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18:11:28 <boily> seeing and IP in an X.0.0.0/8, for small values of X, always disturb me. I was thinking that Taneb came from the Ministry of Defence or something.
18:13:21 <fizzie> I saw one from 5.0.0.0/8 the other day.
18:13:46 <fizzie> Oh, that's also where Taneb was from.
18:13:57 <fizzie> Makes sense, they gave it to RIPE.
18:14:49 <fizzie> APNIC's 1.0.0.0/8 is even more impressive.
18:15:16 <fizzie> 1.2.3.0/24 is reserved by the "APNIC Debogon Project".
18:15:32 <fizzie> And I think 1.1.1.0/24 too.
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18:25:19 <boily> Vorpal: that one ain't scary, it's a lucky IP.
18:26:12 <Vorpal> boily, oh? It is just googles public DNS server
18:26:38 <boily> I know. they solved transient problems many times here.
18:26:57 <Vorpal> I used it when the local unbound daemon fucked up once
18:27:06 <Vorpal> Since I run my own recursive resolver
18:27:17 <Vorpal> I don't think Google's DNS servers does DNSSEC does it?
18:27:20 <Vorpal> It didn't last I looked
18:27:45 <zzo38> Maybe we can make some METAFONT program for the new kind of pronounce symbols and see what compounds are made with it?
18:28:08 <boily> has anybody outside of knuth created metafont fonts?
18:28:29 <Vorpal> Why not use xelatex and plain old TTFs?
18:28:42 <zzo38> boily: Yes, I have done
18:28:54 <zzo38> Vorpal: I prefer METAFONT, I think it is better than TTF
18:29:04 <Vorpal> zzo38, on what grounds?
18:29:18 <Vorpal> TTF is significantly more popular, surely there must be some reason for that
18:29:34 <zzo38> TTF is more popular because Windows uses it.
18:30:23 <oerjan> zzo38 does have a point
18:30:31 <Vorpal> And Mac OS X. And anything based on Qt, GTK or any other modern X11 toolkit
18:30:46 <Vorpal> But why is METAFONT better than TTF?
18:31:16 <Vorpal> I'm ignorant as to their technical merits, so maybe you can summarize them?
18:32:06 <boily> Vorpal: according to the wikipédia, google's DNS has DNSSEC.
18:32:27 <zzo38> Well, METAFONT programs can include any parameters you want to, as well as kern/ligatures, and compiling for the print device (it can include decisions as to how to make it print on that device), and you can type the program to write the font in any text editor, or even interactively
18:32:41 <Vorpal> boily, ah, it says "Since May 6 2013". Pretty sure last time I looked was maybe a year ago or so
18:32:55 <boily> when I'm feeling particularly masochistic, I sometimes try to understand how fonts in LaTeX work. never achieved that goal so far.
18:33:40 <zzo38> TTFs can be compiled into .TFM and .GF too though, like METAFONT can, and so can other formats perhaps.
18:34:04 <oerjan> <zzo38> The descrpition given why "idso" Deadfish isn't acceptable in dc, fails to mention that it is because "s" requires to put another letter afterward. <-- well i suppose they only need one reason why it breaks, although you can add that if you want to.
18:34:35 <Vorpal> zzo38, And TTF doesn't support arbitrary parameters?
18:34:37 <zzo38> I have created a font in METAFONT for chess variants, and a TeX macro package to use them (including parsing algebraic chess notation)
18:35:17 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't think so; I think TTF has a fixed set of parameters and you cannot use them for whatever purpose you want to either.
18:35:47 <Vorpal> zzo38, Also, how does LaTeX know how to make use of all those extra parameters in METAFONT?
18:35:56 <Vorpal> Without manually telling it to that is
18:36:41 <zzo38> Vorpal: The parameters are compiled externally and then the resulting font is given a name.
18:37:54 <Vorpal> Ah, that seems like a downside compared to TTF. With TTF I don't have to manually generate the font in 22pt bold italic for 600dpi. I seem to remember having to do such stuff for pre-XeLaTeX
18:38:25 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, actually it usually automatically generates the fonts if needed, if the parameter file exists, which they usually do.
18:38:58 <zzo38> Even if it doesn't exist, you can set the font magnification in TeX, so you don't need a parameter file for individual magnifications of a font.
18:39:15 <Vorpal> zzo38, If I generate a PDF I want the font to be resizable to whatever the viewer has available. It could be for printing, or displaying on a low res PC monitor. Or a high res tablet screen (my Nexus 10 tablet has 300 dpi for example)
18:39:48 <zzo38> DVI does that doo; the rendered fonts aren't stored in the DVI, they are separate so that they can be rendered for the printer in use.
18:40:05 <zzo38> (This also results in smaller file sizes since you don't need to store a copy of the font with each document)
18:40:11 <Vorpal> zzo38, So the document isn't self-contained? It needs the fonts to be distributed alongside it?
18:41:27 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, although the Computer Modern fonts are generally available anyways in such case. I don't find it so impractical; I think not being self-contained like this is in fact better (although you can distribute the fonts in a .ZIP if you want to; there are also .DVI extensions to support embedded fonts but I prefer non-embedded fonts)
18:43:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, I generally prefer PDF because I know it will look exactly the same everywhere, and everyone can open it.
18:43:22 <zzo38> METAFONT also makes the fonts much easier to modify.
18:43:34 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, and I find that to be exactly the problem; not everyone has the same model of printer!
18:43:37 <Vorpal> Never felt the need of it
18:43:59 <zzo38> Causing it to look worse on some printers.
18:44:13 <Vorpal> Really? You mean colour matching or such?
18:44:23 <Vorpal> Isn't that up to ICC profiles?
18:44:46 <zzo38> No, I mean DPI, aspect ratio, ink thickness, and a few other related things.
18:44:50 <Vorpal> Since I don't embed bitmap fonts in the PDFs, surely it will scale properly
18:45:11 <zzo38> Well, it will scale better than bitmap fonts do, at least
18:45:25 <Vorpal> Anyway, paper aspect ratio varies yes, but isn't that fixed in the DVI?
18:45:26 <zzo38> That doesn't necessarily mean it will scale properly, though.
18:45:32 <Vorpal> It is either US Letter or A4
18:45:40 <zzo38> Vorpal: I mean pixel aspect ratio
18:48:23 <zzo38> Also, METAFONT and Plain TeX and DVI and whatever will continue to work in the same way fifty years from now, but the Lua-pdf-e-XeLaTeX probably won't work anymore because they will replace it with something else which is a bit similar but really different.
18:49:24 <Vorpal> Doubt it, PDF is a standard nowdays. There is even an archival format of PDF
18:49:35 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF/A
18:51:41 <Bike> heh, font linking mentioned right there
18:51:51 <zzo38> Maybe PDF/A might work, but not necessarily quite the same way, and source files may not work either (some old C source files already fail to work). And then you need LaTeX packages and stuff, resulting in even more confusion. But I think METAFONT, Plain TeX, and DVI will continue to work in fifty years without any difficulties.
18:52:11 <Vorpal> Bike, yes PDF supports it, but it is deprecated nowdays iirc
18:57:36 <lexande> what does the iceweasel say?
18:57:51 <Vorpal> lexande, with regards to what?
19:00:40 <Vorpal> Does anyone use JPEG 2000?
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19:14:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Movie theatres, AIUI.
19:15:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Typical" digital movie distribution formats have each frame encoded as a JPEG2k image.
19:15:06 <fizzie> Or so I've heard from somewhere, anyway.
19:16:29 <fizzie> "Digital Cinema Initiatives (DCI), a joint venture of the six major studios, published the first version (V1.0) of a system specification for digital cinema in July 2005. -- Briefly, the specification calls for picture encoding using the ISO/IEC 15444-1 "JPEG2000" (.j2c) standard and use of the CIE XYZ color space at 12 bits per component encoded with a 2.6 gamma applied at projection. Two ...
19:16:35 <fizzie> ... levels of resolution for both content and projectors are supported: 2K (2048×1080) or 2.2 MP at 24 or 48 frames per second, and 4K (4096×2160) or 8.85 MP at 24 frames per second."
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19:20:37 <Bike> wowwww, CIE is old
19:21:11 <Bike> the oldest, in fact
19:22:31 <olsner> International Commission on Illumination (CIE)
19:23:48 <Bike> the XYZ colorspace, i mean
19:24:25 <olsner> `addquote <boily> I love django.
19:24:32 <HackEgo> 1120) <boily> I love django.
19:24:36 <mnoqy> how many quotes about django is that now
19:24:57 <olsner> one that doesn't have me in it! \o/
19:25:07 <ion> Ooh, an aligned body for once.
19:25:16 <boily> are we all speaking about the same django? I was refering to the Python framework here.
19:25:32 -!- asie has joined.
19:26:36 <shachaf> i was thinking a django was a type of dog
19:26:40 <shachaf> but i guess that's a dingo
19:27:23 <Vorpal> <ion> Ooh, an aligned body for once. <-- quite
19:27:40 <oerjan> django is a type of reinhardt
19:27:52 <Vorpal> I thought it was a movie as well?
19:28:19 <fizzie> Bike: I recall someone telling me CIE 1931's frequency response curves are... not very good, physiologically speaking, according to more accurate, post-1931 measurements.
19:28:41 <Bike> fizzie: i know nothing about colorspaces :( which is probably bad since i'm interested in perception psychology
19:29:08 <boily> fizzie: of course their curves aren't good. the world was in black and white back then!
19:29:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, What about the Lab colorspace?
19:29:12 <oerjan> ion: you can increase the alignment by changing to a 6-character nick
19:29:12 <fizzie> Bike: There's also CIE 1960, CIE 1964 and CIE 1976; they keep doing it over.
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19:30:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's CIE 1976, I think. It does perceptual uniformity better, but it's still just a nonlinear compression over CIE XYZ, which means it has the same underlying curves, AFAIK.
19:30:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what is a good colour space then? That covers the entire vision I mean
19:30:54 <boily> fizzie: I think the most common illuminant used in Lab is D65, which was added in '67.
19:31:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess none of the RGB ones are very good?
19:31:28 <Bike> man. i don't think i even understand what a color space is.
19:31:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: The one where you store actual spectrum vectors, presumably.
19:31:54 <Vorpal> My monitors at work can do 10-bit Adobe RGB btw. Not sure if my GPU there supports that though. Wide gamut can be interesting.
19:33:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: I guess that's a matter of definition. It doesn't exist in any sort of colorspace you could get a regular computer to use, but certainly astronomers and the like use spectroscopes of all kinds.
19:33:40 <Bike> what if i hook a spectroscope to my computer to play Half Life 2 HDR
19:34:22 <fizzie> I don't know what the inverse of a spectroscope (a projector that can reproduce a desired spectrum) is called.
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19:35:59 <fizzie> In fact, I'm not sure if those really exist.
19:36:35 <Bike> it seems like it would be hard to make
19:37:05 <boily> google is no help on that subject :(
19:37:15 <fizzie> Bike: I think you start with a full-spectrum light source, split it up with something prismatic, put a variable-intensity filter (any old LCD) and then put the frequencies back again.
19:37:19 <fizzie> Some lenses may be involved.
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19:37:29 <olsner> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrometer ?
19:37:40 <fizzie> olsner: That's the wrong direction.
19:37:55 <Bike> a backwards spectrometer, olsner.
19:38:14 <olsner> > reverse "spectrometer"
19:38:32 <Bike> i think some genera of spiders have those
19:38:45 <fizzie> Invariably fatal, I'm sure.
19:38:58 <Bike> indeed, and it's hard for the spiders' families
19:39:28 <fizzie> Also I suppose the retemortceps has less obvious uses than a spectrometer.
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19:41:12 <olsner> did "(a projector that can reproduce a desired spectrum)" refer to the thing you were looking for, or the spectroscope?
19:41:28 <fizzie> Google is indeed no real help, though "Relativistic Positron Creation Using Ultra-Intense Short Pulse Lasers" is a pretty impressive title.
19:41:28 <Bike> the thing being looked for
19:41:49 <Bike> will keep in mind when i need positrons
19:41:57 <olsner> right, I was looking at that page and thinking "yeah, this is the inverse of a projector that can reproduce a spectrum"
19:42:01 <fizzie> You can never have too many positrons.
19:42:10 <boily> http://babele.tesionline.it/babele/testo.jsp?id=58169 ← some... article, maybe? something about ypocsortceps.
19:42:43 <Bike> maybe such a thing would be useful for visual system physiology studies
19:43:04 <Bike> boily: haha what the hell
19:43:26 <boily> Bike: I don't know. I really don't know.
19:43:44 <Bike> maybe it's a test of a "grab a webpage and reverse it" thing...
19:44:03 <fizzie> Hmm. There's "Agile Spectrum Imaging: Programmable Wavelength Modulation for Cameras and Projectors".
19:44:18 <fizzie> It seems to have some wavelength masking abilities.
19:44:19 <boily> fungot: what is the positronic yield of a reverse spectroscopic arachnoid?
19:44:19 <fungot> boily: that way, exactly... i'd have said quebecois myself, but that looks less like sql :p)
19:44:44 <boily> fungot: si t'insistes sur le québécois, ça te dérangerais-tu d'explique de quossé qui se passe?
19:44:44 <fungot> boily: i'm usually writing code to get at the procedure's fnord
19:45:01 <boily> the Search for the Quintessential Fnord.
19:46:10 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/OYfa I guess that's at least somewhat close.
19:46:17 <fizzie> (Also: rainbow plane.)
19:46:47 <Bike> one of the best mario kart levels tbh
19:47:21 <fizzie> http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1262930 <-- oh, there we go.
19:48:21 <fizzie> To get back to the initial comment, apparently "hyperspectral image projector" is the term I was looking for.
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19:49:04 <Bike> fizzie: that's pretty wizard lookin'.
19:49:37 <fizzie> 1024x768 pixels and 2-5nm spectral resolution for the 450-2400nm range, that sounds pretty impressive.
19:50:00 <fizzie> (Also: "supercontinuum".)
19:52:00 <fizzie> Article doesn't mention anything about playing Half Life on it.
19:53:01 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131016-hyperspectral-projector.png oh, it's that simple?
19:54:16 <fizzie> I'm reasonably happy that my guess about how you'd go around making one was actually pretty accurate, except for substituting a micromirror thing in place of a LCD filter.
19:55:16 <olsner> simply integrating sphere the eigenspectra into abundance images
19:55:45 <fizzie> Okay, yes, they also made a 2D image out of it without using W*H copies of the entire device.
19:56:08 <fizzie> With the Spatial Engine. But the Spectral Engine looks right.
19:57:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't the W*H issue solved by the phrase "within the integration time"? Basically they don't do it all at once?
19:57:34 <Vorpal> Or did I miss something
19:57:49 <Vorpal> That image didn't make a lot of sense to me though
19:58:37 <fizzie> I think it's slightly more complicated than just passing a variable-spectrum beam over the pixels.
19:59:06 <Vorpal> That is one hell of a complicated prism setup though
20:00:16 <fizzie> "When the spectral engine is coupled to the spatial engine to make the full HIP, the spectrally-programmed light globally illuminates the 1024x768 pixels of the spatial engine DMD. Gray scale at this DMD enables realistic 2-dimensional images to be displayed, as in conventional projectors. The difference here is that the time-integrated spectra projected from each spatial engine DMD pixel can ...
20:00:34 <fizzie> ... be individually controlled, using a compressive projection algorithm described previously, enabling projection of realistic spatial/spectral image cubes into sensors under test [2]."
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20:01:11 <fizzie> I don't know if I want to go and see what [2] is.
20:01:20 <fizzie> There's a bit of a summary here.
20:01:26 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:01:33 <fizzie> But it goes into component eigenspectra and abundance images pretty soon.
20:01:43 <Vorpal> What do those words even mean?
20:02:55 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, it's pretty much just that it generates K (optimally selected) spectra and K corresponding greyscale images, giving that way individual per-pixel weights for each K spectra.
20:03:30 <fizzie> So if you'd have just pixels with two spectra in the image, you'd get those two (at different times) out of the spectral engine, and a black-and-white picture (and its inverse) in the spatial engine.
20:03:54 <fizzie> And that's done fast enough so that it falls in the "integration time of the sensor", so that it just sees the weighted sums.
20:04:20 <fizzie> Which would probably work just fine for a human eye too.
20:04:47 <fizzie> Though if it's your eye, this part sounds potentially uncomfortable: "A sensor under test is focussed at infinity with its optical axis co-aligned with the HIP output collimator --"
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20:07:27 <fizzie> Also apparently that's how DLP projectors do color images these days too, there's a rapidly cycling RGB filter in front of the light source and then for each color the mirror is set to have that color component of the image, so that they blend together.
20:07:31 <fizzie> So this is pretty much the same thing, except instead of fixed R,G,B primaries, it can generate an arbitrary amount of optimal spectra to reproduce the original.
20:09:21 <fizzie> (I still haven't figured out what a "supercontinuum-based spectral engine" is.)
20:09:39 <fizzie> (So far it doesn't seem to be related to the CH.)
20:12:06 <kmc> i think that's the oldest way to do color with DLP
20:12:42 <fizzie> Well, okay, you can also do three chips at the same time.
20:13:14 <fizzie> Now that you mention it, I do remember I knew this already.
20:13:22 <kmc> yeah, that's how the more expensive ones work now
20:13:41 <kmc> you can also use a rapidly changing LED or laser light source, which is like the color wheel but faster so less distracting
20:13:47 <kmc> but I kind of like the rainbow artifacts myself :)
20:14:00 <fizzie> "In optics, a supercontinuum is formed when a collection of nonlinear processes act together upon a pump beam in order to cause severe spectral broadening of the original pump beam."
20:14:56 <fizzie> Apparently it's just a way to get a flat and wide spectrum out.
20:15:31 <kmc> "severe spectral broadening" reminds me of "severe tire damage"
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20:15:44 <kmc> "The number of mirrors corresponds to the resolution of the projected image (often half as many mirrors as the advertised resolution due to wobulation)."
20:15:49 <kmc> sure, of course, the wobulation
20:15:52 <fizzie> That's appropriate, since both end up with a flat.
20:16:07 <metasepia> Wobulation is a term which refers to the known variation (or wobble) in a characteristic.
20:16:20 <fizzie> fungot: Stop wobulating.
20:16:20 <fungot> fizzie: until well into it in pure python? i've written a few scripts for the darcs repository
20:16:33 <boily> what the fungot. how in fungot is that a real word?
20:16:33 <fungot> boily: tommo it depends on? ( re ' i have never heard of
20:16:40 <boily> fungot: me neither.
20:16:40 <fungot> boily: my point was that if you listen to _me_? going to be interesting
20:16:50 <fungot> boily: no ei kovin :dd mit vittua :dd then i might be fnord.
20:17:10 <boily> dd, finnish, and fnords. no way I'm going to follow that procedure.
20:17:12 <fizzie> fungot: I'll wash your mouth with soap if you keep using that sort of language, young bot!
20:17:12 <fungot> fizzie: shivers wrote the srfi...
20:17:50 <fizzie> The middle part is pretty much "what the fuck".
20:19:56 <boily> strangely, we don't have any standardized wtf. only «[RANDOM EXPLETIVE] c'est quoi ça?».
20:20:22 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
20:21:49 <fizzie> <[redacted]> suddenly [redacted] and fiz were there too and [redacted] drow to the garden with a car. he said to me "[translating from Finnish: what the FUCK are you doing here so early?]" (usually it's just "[translating: what the FUCK are you doing here?") and i said with a slightly ironic tone "there's suitable company for you here, nutcases escaped from a lunatic asylum." he was like "yeah ...
20:21:55 <fizzie> ... i know about that".
20:22:00 <fizzie> <[redacted]> he tried to communicate something to fiz with lip movements so that i wouldn't understand but i did.
20:22:04 <fizzie> <[redacted]> then one of the lunatics stabbed him and in a way they also stabbed me, it was like we were united. fiz and [redacted] tried to escape with a car (not [redacted]'s car but another one) and leave me there but i got into the car. don't know why [redacted] was left behind.
20:23:06 <fizzie> In retrospect, I should've given some pseudo-identifiers to all those [redacted]s.
20:23:18 <mnoqy> did redacted have a dream with you and redacted in it
20:23:32 <boily> censorship titillates me.
20:23:35 <fizzie> I think that was the case.
20:24:49 <fizzie> Well, me and redacted and redacted too.
20:25:15 <kmc> I would probably write that as "<▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒> suddenly ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒ and fiz were there too and ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒"
20:25:17 <boily> ooooh... Nordic Redacted Ménage à Trois! sexy.
20:25:20 <kmc> because ♥ box drawing characters
20:26:26 <fizzie> "░▒▓████▓▒░ and ░▒▓████▓▒░"
20:28:42 <fizzie> ▗▘▀▖ ▌ ▗ ▖▖ ▌▖▖▄ ▖▖▝ ▄ ▗▖
20:28:43 <fizzie> ▚ ▝▖ ▛▖▌▌▞▖ ▞▌▛ ▄▌▙▌▐ ▌▌▚▌ ▘▀ ▀ ▝ ▘▘ ▝▘▘ ▀▘▀▘▝ ▘▘▄▘
20:28:52 <fizzie> It is the irssi line combining thing.
20:29:19 <fizzie> ▜▘ ▗▖▖▖▗▖▌ ▄ ▟▖ ▟▖▌ ▝ ▗▖
20:29:19 <fizzie> ▐ ▘▖▌▌▌ ▙▘ ▄▌▐ ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖
20:29:19 <fizzie> ▀▘ ▀ ▝▘▝▘▘▘ ▀▘ ▘ ▘▘▘▝ ▀
20:29:40 <myname> /exec -o toilet indeed
20:30:05 <fizzie> That was "rfk86ize.pl".
20:30:24 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:30:27 <fizzie> I made that 4x6 pixel font for rfk86, it sort of goes well with the 2x2 blockery.
20:31:10 <ion> There’s a setting for the line combining thing.
20:31:41 <fizzie> ion: Maybe I should disable it completely, because I don't remember the last time it was actually useful. (Though the paste detection does usually work.)
20:31:51 <shachaf> why does it do the line combining thing anyway......
20:32:07 <fizzie> shachaf: It's for pasting from the backscroll, I believe.
20:32:41 <fizzie> Otherwise line-wrapped comments turn out real ugly.
20:32:46 <ion> If i, say, copy certain two lines from my buffer to the clipboard, i’ll get:
20:32:48 <ion> ke233142 fizzie ion: Maybe I should disable it completely, because I don't
20:32:50 <ion> remember the last time it was actually useful. (Though the
20:32:57 <ion> The functionality is a kluge for detecting that.
20:33:35 <fizzie> (Fun fact: Unicode blockifying script located with a find . -iname '*.pl' -print0 | xargs -0 grep '▚' since I didn't remember where I put it.)
20:33:56 <ion> find -iname '*.pl' -exec grep '▚' '{}' '+'
20:34:02 <shachaf> But then you have to figure out how to type ▚
20:34:17 <fizzie> I had gucharmap already open for ░▒▓█.
20:34:22 <ion> grep '▚' **/*.pl
20:34:44 <fizzie> ion: Too fancy by far.
20:35:04 <shachaf> ion: Will that run multiple grep processes if there are too many files to fit on one command line?
20:35:45 <kmc> fizzie: haha
20:35:59 <ion> Nope. It will also just skip directories it can’t read.
20:36:22 <fizzie> It doesn't even seem to work. Is it a non-bash thing?
20:36:43 <shachaf> Probably a zsh thing in ion's case.
20:37:09 <shachaf> (ion seems like the sort of person who'd use zsh.)
20:37:10 <FireFly> that didn't work as well as I hoped it would
20:37:12 <fizzie> I'm relieved other people fail as much as I do.
20:38:03 <ion> Excluding shachaf. He never fails.
20:38:22 <ion> He fails at failing, though.
20:38:49 <lambdabot> cmccann says: < cmccann> shachaf: nobody will associate with someone who breaks the monoid laws! < shachaf> cmccann: That's why I go by a secret identity.
20:39:00 <lambdabot> cmccann says: < cmccann> shachaf: nobody will associate with someone who breaks the monoid laws! < shachaf> cmccann: That's why I go by a secret identity.
20:39:02 <lambdabot> cmccann says: < cmccann> shachaf: nobody will associate with someone who breaks the monoid laws! < shachaf> cmccann: That's why I go by a secret identity.
20:39:10 <ion> @quote cmccann shachaf
20:39:10 <lambdabot> cmccann says: some people blame themselves, some people blame the language, but the people who really know what they're doing blame shachaf.
20:39:24 <shachaf> Are those the only two cmccann shachaf quotes?
20:39:49 <boily> mwah ah ah! useless xmodmapping! I now can directly input ░▒▓█!
20:39:52 <shachaf> It seems like most of cmccann's time is spent coming up with things to say about me.
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20:41:42 <fizzie> I don't know how you're supposed to connect the diagonal box drawings to anything else, though.
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20:44:18 <fizzie> You can do something like http://sprunge.us/SYCW I guess but that's it.
20:44:32 <fizzie> (Also it renders clunky here.)
20:45:42 <ion> It renders somewhat well-ish here.
20:47:22 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/fizzie-x.png
20:47:42 <FireFly> What's up with your font rendering thingies?
20:47:58 <FireFly> http://i.imgur.com/NxHHzeN.png
20:48:10 <FireFly> I guess the bottom part is a bit ugly for me
20:48:30 <ion> and/or fonts
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21:01:01 <myname> FireFly: uh? looks perfect
21:05:42 <FireFly> myname: here's a zoomed-in not-very-pretty screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/EGMcaXx.png
21:06:13 <FireFly> something's weird with the bottom, but it's not as if it's very noticeable
21:06:45 <myname> don't get your problem
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21:16:13 <Bike> http://radar.oreilly.com/2013/10/announcing-biocoder.html i can't stop laughing
21:21:08 <shachaf> i'll have what fizzie's having
21:21:26 <fizzie> myname: The bottom is supposed to be a solid line without those per-each-character-cell discontinuities.
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21:33:31 <kmc> @tell zzo38 gcc 4.7.2 doesn't warn me about "if ((x == 4) && (y = 0))" being always false, even with -Wall -Wextra -O3
21:34:16 <Bike> matlab's lint warns about assignment in conditionals, which is... nice considering, i guess
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21:39:44 <kmc> does it always?
21:40:43 <fizzie> "-Wtype-limits: Warn if a comparison is always true or always false due to the limited range of the data type, but do not warn for constant expressions. For example, warn if an unsigned variable is compared against zero with ‘<’ or ‘>=’. This warning is also enabled by -Wextra."
21:41:21 <fizzie> I was under the impression that there was also a "warn for constant expressions" warning with some extra heuristics to not warn for e.g. while (1), but apparently not.
21:41:53 <kmc> I like that a majority (?) of do...while loops in C are do { ... } while (0);
21:41:58 <kmc> great language feature
21:42:38 <FireFly> Speaking of which, why do C macros use do { ... } while (0) instead of just a plain block { ... } ?
21:42:55 <fizzie> FireFly: Because of semicolon problems.
21:43:08 <fizzie> FireFly: Consider if (x) MACRO(); else bar;
21:43:20 <fizzie> FireFly: Would expand to if (x) { ... }; else bar; which is a syntax error.
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21:45:15 <fizzie> There is also the if (1) { ... } else variant which works correctly in the absence of any errors, but quietly does bad things if someone accidentally drops the semicolon after the macro. (Because the next statement will then end up in the else branch.)
21:45:59 <olsner> I like the if/else variant
21:46:19 <olsner> wouldn't ever use it though
21:46:22 <fizzie> Bike: *Can* you assign in a conditional, in MATLAB?
21:46:39 <fizzie> Bike: http://sprunge.us/QBWB
21:46:52 <fizzie> Though possibly there are more subtle ways.
21:47:06 <Bike> what about "if (x = 1)"
21:47:20 <Bike> that error doesn't look like "no assignments in a conditional", i mean
21:47:34 <fizzie> Well, you know, MATLAB and errors.
21:47:50 <Bike> "Well, you know, MATLAB and anything"
21:47:58 <fizzie> I was just under the impression that assignment was a statement and not an expression in MATLAB.
21:48:25 <fizzie> "x = 1 + (y = 2)" is equally "not a valid target for an assignment".
21:48:33 <Bike> in octave i get "warning: suggest parenthesis around assignment used as truth value" and the display happens.
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21:49:00 <Bike> ...in that it allows assignment in conditional?
21:49:06 <fizzie> There are some subscripting things you can also do in Octave that need an assignment to a temporary in MATLAB.
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21:50:03 <fizzie> Compare e.g. http://sprunge.us/dKEQ
21:50:15 <fizzie> Arguably Octave's behaving better there.
21:50:46 <fizzie> There was some way of writing the subscripting in MATLAB "inline" too, but it wasn't nice.
21:51:53 <Bike> man, i don't even want to think about first class functions in the damn language
21:54:16 <fizzie> Oh, right, of course: subsref(f(4),struct('type','()','subs',{{1}}))
21:54:23 <fizzie> That's the equivalent of Octave f(4)(1).
21:54:30 <Bike> the lab codebase apparently won't work in octave, just stays where it is for an hour and running. so ugh
21:54:50 <Bike> and that's after finding out that octave mkdir is incompatible and fixing it.
21:54:53 <fizzie> ("subsref" being the underlying function called for x(y) syntax.)
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21:59:41 <fizzie> Another funny MATLAB/Octave difference: http://sprunge.us/KHNS
21:59:45 <fizzie> See, logspace(a, b), which is normally from 10^a to 10^b, is instead from 10^a to plain b if b equals pi. In MATLAB, it tests "b == pi || b == single(pi)", while Octave *attempts* to get by with "b == pi" because in Octave the == is automatically single-precision if either side is -- but if b is of type double but with the value equal to single(pi)...
22:00:08 <kmc> what the christ
22:00:35 <fizzie> It's also only the 'b' parameter, not the 'a' that has the 'is pi' special case, of course.
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22:00:56 <Bike> why does it even have that pi behavior
22:01:32 <kmc> it's "useful for digital signal processing where frequencies over this interval go around the unit circle"
22:01:46 <Bike> nonetheless, what the christ
22:01:58 <fizzie> Someone somewhere back in the misty days of history extensively used that "feature", and now they're stuck with it.
22:02:47 <fizzie> Personally I'd guesstimate that at least 90% of all my logspaces have been logspace(log10(x), log10(y)) because I want logarithmically spaced points from x to y, not 10^x to 10^y.
22:03:19 <Bike> fizzie: btw, "foo = ones(x,y); [bar, baz] = find(foo == 1);" is as dumb as it looks right
22:03:53 <kmc> matlab: not even once
22:04:17 <fizzie> Bike: I've never even seen that construction. It seems... very MATLAB.
22:04:24 <Bike> yes. yes indeed
22:04:33 <kmc> (hm, Rust has a feature called "once functions", I wonder if we should also have "not even once functions")
22:04:38 <Bike> i should probably start a git branch for cleaning up shit like that for microoptimization
22:04:51 <Bike> (also the other reasons to fix it)
22:05:46 <Bike> for those at home, that makes bar = a list of x indices and baz = a list of y indices, into foo, in about the least efficient way i can think of
22:06:06 <Fiora> kmc: like "gets()"?
22:06:58 <Bike> so after [foo,bar] = find(ones(2,2) == 1);, foo is [1,2,1,2] and bar is [1,1,2,2].
22:07:22 <kmc> yes, that would be a good "not even once" function :D
22:07:27 <Bike> by the way, functions are aware of how many "out arguments" they have been provided with
22:07:35 <Bike> i could go on for years and i've been doing this for two months.
22:07:44 <Fiora> kmc: sorry, bad joke without context XD
22:08:00 <Bike> "provided with" rather
22:08:19 <fizzie> Bike: I think my "intuitive" MATLAB phrasing of that would've been [bar, baz] = ndgrid(1:x, 1:y); bar = reshape(bar, [], 1); baz = reshape(baz, [], 1); if for some reason I'd've needed them as vectors.
22:08:23 <fizzie> Though I'm sure many would argue for [bar, baz] = ind2sub([x y], 1:x*y) instead.
22:08:56 <Bike> fizzie: i'm reasonably sure all cases of this involve really stupid iterations over a matrix of the right size anyway, so i'll have to think of a better rewrite
22:09:04 <fizzie> I have a gut feeling that all ind2sub-y solutions are sort of "officially preferred". You see them a lot in Mathworks-provided examples.
22:09:49 <Bike> like the actual code is...
22:10:52 <Bike> TnKO = ones(NAct, NTn); [iTest, jTest] = find(TnKO == 1); for iii = 1:length(jTest) ... stuff involving TnKO(:, iii) ....
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22:12:35 <fizzie> I guess TnKO is modified there somewhere? Because otherwise I guess all TnKO(:, iii)'s are the same.
22:12:50 <Bike> yeah, it's assignments to zero, it's setting up TnKO.
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22:13:03 <fizzie> (Really, though. MATLAB.)
22:13:32 <fizzie> The premier software package for technical computing.
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22:14:02 <Bike> oh, man, let me check out this snippet to see if it does what i think it does.
22:14:05 <fizzie> I've got some lines that have triply nested bsxfuns.
22:14:55 <fizzie> SciPy has "auto-broadcasting"; if you do something with a NxM matrix and either a Nx1 or 1xM one where it'd make sense, it repeats the other automatically.
22:15:20 <Bike> yeah ok there's got to be a better way for this bit.
22:15:43 <fizzie> In MATLAB, you'd either repmat() the vector, or write it with bsxfun() instead, which generally has better performance but then all operators get replaced with cryptic names.
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22:16:19 <fizzie> A/repmat(...) vs bsxfun(@mrdivide, A, ...).
22:16:39 <fizzie> ("Matrix right divide".)
22:16:56 <Bike> TnKO = rand(...), [iTest, jTest] = find(TnKO <= TnFraction); TnKO = zeros(...), and then it does a for loop to set the ones that were less than the fraction to one.
22:18:07 <fizzie> TnKO = rand(...) <= TnFraction; ?
22:18:08 <Bike> ah. yes. it's TnKO <= TnFraction isn't it.
22:18:15 <Bike> that's just fantastic.
22:18:52 <Bike> maybe i should compile this stuff for the daily wtf. or have they set a policy against lab code by now
22:18:53 <fizzie> You'll end up with a type-'logical' matrix out of that, instead of a type-'double' one, which theoretically could hit some corner case. :p
22:19:46 <Bike> i bet a logical matrix takes up less memory?
22:19:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/IidL yes.
22:20:16 <fizzie> One eighth of a 'double', assuming no sparsity.
22:21:16 <Bike> oh i haven't even gotten into the loop that does sparse(complicated constant matrix) every loop
22:23:14 <fizzie> The for i = ...; a(x(i),y(i)) = K; end antipattern is, I think, somewhere in the official docs as an example that can pretty much always be replaced with a(...) = K; kind of a thing. (Sometimes involving some sub2ind.)
22:23:41 <fizzie> a(sub2ind(size(a), x, y)) = K; I think.
22:23:42 <Bike> what's sub2ind again
22:23:58 <fizzie> Takes subscripts and returns "linear indices".
22:24:17 <Bike> meaning, like... what.
22:24:21 <Bike> row major index?
22:24:40 <fizzie> The indexing you get if you access a 2-or-more-dimensional matrix with a single subscript.
22:24:50 <fizzie> I don't remember which way it goes.
22:25:09 <fizzie> (It's possibly a better idea to use sub2ind/ind2sub to convert, anyway.)
22:25:22 <fizzie> (Probably it goes the same way as reshaping and everything else.)
22:29:01 <fizzie> There's some way of writing that sub2ind thing that involves two subscripts, but worse in terms of performance, and I can't think of it right now. (You can't just use two vectors as subscripts directly.)
22:29:42 <fizzie> I sure hope all this MATLAB knowledge will be useful some day.
22:30:24 <Bike> do you use it for your job or somethin
22:33:56 <olsner> is matlab big in natural language stuff research?
22:34:53 <fungot> olsner: eval ( log 2)? how would i know that one.
22:36:05 <Bike> fungot just ain't got a good head for numbers
22:36:06 <fungot> Bike: i don't think i have the wrong fnord loaded, so, it might
22:36:56 <fizzie> Bike: If you can call it a job.
22:38:21 <fizzie> olsner: It's big in the field of all kinds of audio things, including speech. For more NLP-y stuff, probably not so much.
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22:39:44 <Bike> that's a job, just a shitty one, as far as i can tell
22:40:13 <fizzie> It has most of the trappings of a job, that's for sure.
22:40:25 <kmc> except the money
22:40:52 <fizzie> There's money, just less of it.
22:41:16 <Bike> Have you considered taking a part time job coaching the football team
22:41:32 <fizzie> I don't think we have one.
22:41:53 <fizzie> Sports and universities don't really mix around here.
22:42:13 <Bike> what a country.
22:42:28 <kmc> in america universities are mostly an excuse to have football, and football is mostly an excuse to drink and have riots
22:42:50 <Bike> i've seen like four different professors with that map of the highest paid official by state, it's hilarious
22:42:52 <kmc> but I think the second half holds in Europe too, different meaning of "football" notwithstanding
22:42:57 <Bike> (spoiler they're mostly college football coaches)
22:43:08 <kmc> hey some of them are college basketball coaches!
22:43:11 <kmc> one or two hockey coaches
22:43:29 <kmc> hey does anyone here know anything about moderate-to-high-end cameras?
22:43:45 <fizzie> I mean, I guess the students have all kinds of sports-related organizations (they have clubs for all kinds of hobbies) but they're really very vaguely connected to the university itself.
22:44:02 <Bike> maybe when i'm a starving grad student i'll try to strike and establish an anarcho-syndicalist university.
22:44:20 <fizzie> Also many of the clubs *are* an excuse to drink, no matter what their subject matter.
22:44:22 <Bike> http://deadspin.com/infographic-is-your-states-highest-paid-employee-a-co-489635228 ah, here's the map. "You may have heard that the highest-paid employee in each state is usually the football coach at the largest state school. This is actually a gross mischaracterization: Sometimes it is the basketball coach."
22:44:33 <Bike> kmc, public policy writer
22:45:54 <Bike> huh none of them are hockey actually
22:46:07 <Bike> "Update, June 18: We've fixed one mistake in the map, which was pointed out to us by our friends at Harper's Magazine. The highest-paid state employee in New Hampshire is now the UNH president. It's no longer the hockey coach, as we'd originally indicated"
22:48:15 <Bike> i'm kind of curious about nevada. "med school plastic surgeon"? like, some professor that teaches how to do plastic surgery?
22:52:46 <Fiora> maybe it's a school that has an actual hospital like as part of the school?
22:52:49 <Fiora> and it's a surgeon who works there
22:53:12 <Bike> i suppose that's plausible, given the hospital a block away from me
22:58:53 <Bike> oh, here's his CV.
22:59:26 <Bike> "transparentnevada.com" lists his total pay and benefits at about 1.2 mil.
23:01:00 <Bike> current positions , "Professor and Chief, Division of Plastic Surgery", "Director, Microsurgery and Hyperbaric Research Laboratory", bla bla, president of a few things, af ew professorships, and chairman of the surgery department.
23:01:30 <Bike> oh jesus this CV is thirty pages long
23:03:22 <Bike> next in the list of highest paid is an associate professor, which is kind of awesome. then the clark county fire chief, which makes sense since nevada
23:04:31 <kmc> hey Bike http://nation.time.com/2013/10/16/washington-state-approves-new-rules-for-marijuana-industry/
23:04:46 <kmc> "The rules also aim to weed out large-scale marijuana sellers by limiting the number of licenses that anyone can hold to three."
23:04:58 <kmc> lol that's like the law for alcohol in massachusetts
23:05:05 <kmc> which I think was passed by the distributors' cartel
23:05:18 <Bike> HOW MYSTERIOUS
23:05:22 <kmc> so: large-scale sellers bad, large-scale distributors fine?
23:07:20 <Bike> what's the difference exactly
23:08:08 <kmc> in MA it's about the license to operate a retail liquor outlet
23:08:27 <kmc> i dunno what the law will be for weed distributors in washington (weedshington?)
23:08:42 <Bike> so a distributor is like... selling it to the sellers, or what, though
23:09:18 <kmc> and they want to deal with a bunch of separate liquor store companies rather than the big grocery chains
23:09:25 <kmc> because the latter could negotiate better terms
23:09:29 <kmc> also did you see http://www.thebohemianblog.com/2013/09/on-smoking-weed-in-north-korea.html ?
23:09:36 <kmc> not sure how much of this to believe tbh, but it's a pretty good story
23:09:45 <Bike> bullshit, i want weed at walmart
23:10:10 <kmc> there's some rumor that tobacco companies are already registering trademarks for weed-based products
23:10:30 <Bike> good to know the war on drugs is over then :/
23:10:57 <kmc> that reminds me of that scene at the beginning of _Layer Cake_
23:10:59 <kmc> decent movie
23:11:30 <fizzie> Bike: Did you win or lose?
23:11:42 <Bike> also weed in korea is just going to make me think of https://twitter.com/Vice_Is_Hip/status/389177827524112385 then
23:11:46 <Bike> fizzie: am i a drug
23:12:16 <fizzie> I... guess? Endorphins from Biking around, that sort of thing.
23:20:49 <Bike> kmc: this article isg reat
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02:46:32 <pikhq> Apparently irssi by default just doesn't use IPv6.
02:47:09 <pikhq> You have to actually do /set resolve_prefer_ipv6 on
02:47:31 * Bike does so. why not.
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02:47:41 <pikhq> That explains why I'm connected to Freenode via IPv4 right now.
02:48:05 <pikhq> (my ISP runs 6rd, so)
02:58:55 <Sgeo> I have a favorite Foundation Tails author now
02:58:55 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/foundation-tales
02:59:39 <Sgeo> So far have read Quiet Days, The Price We Pay, and Empty Nights
03:09:13 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/87v98vB.jpg utah, the dullest state
03:25:00 <Sgeo> No one minds if I laugh at Chicken Schemers, right? (I think it's partially I've made up some kind of imaginary rivalry in my mind, but I did see an argument by someone that makes no sense if I understand things properly)
03:26:03 <Sgeo> Oh, someone on Lambda-The-Ultimate said the same thing I was going to
03:26:04 <Bike> my mother is a chicken schemer you bigoted piece of shit
03:26:08 <Sgeo> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2753
03:26:16 <Sgeo> "For example, he suggests that the relation between syntax-case and syntax is unhygenic, which is untrue."
03:27:09 <Sgeo> Was wondering about that
03:27:10 <Sgeo> "Because this use
03:27:10 <Sgeo> of SYNTAX occurs lexically inside the (swap! a b) pattern,
03:27:10 <Sgeo> the instances of A and B in the syntax template hygienically
03:27:11 <Sgeo> refer to those parameters of the macro. If you moved the
03:27:13 <Sgeo> SYNTAX to a helper function it would break. "
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03:27:46 <Sgeo> That's exactly what lexical scoping is about, isn't it? If you move a raw lambda form into a function when the lambda was making a closure, that would break too
03:28:51 <pikhq_> Reconnect in the name of actually using IPv6.
03:28:59 <Sgeo> Oh, it's a Racket dev who said that on ltu
03:29:09 <Bike> hello, 2602:100:4751:9692:922b:34ff:fed8:75d
03:29:15 <Bike> so are we laughing at racketeers now or what
03:29:58 <Bike> need to have up to date information on which programming language is a laughable sin.
03:30:09 <Sgeo> I agree with Racketeers on this. If I'm laughing at Racketeers, it's probably at their trying to defend against claims that they've complicated the language with the way they've done keyword arguments
03:30:30 <Bike> this just seems so boring.
03:30:38 <Bike> you could argue about whether zebrafish can feel pain.
03:30:41 <Bike> do you think so?
03:31:14 <Sgeo> I'd have fun with vacuous statements, but for all I know there could actually exist something called 'zebrafish'
03:31:29 <Sgeo> Zebrafish do, in fact, exist.
03:31:30 <Bike> ...there is, dude.
03:31:49 <Bike> there's no need to make up fish species. there are a lot and there are some pretty crazy ones, eg sunfish.
03:31:58 <Sgeo> It sounds like it would be the name of an animal on Avatar: The Last Airbender
03:32:10 <Bike> like "catfish"?
03:32:48 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sunfish2.jpg Blaaaaa I am as big as your car
03:32:55 <quintopia> i need racket like a zebrafish needs Bike
03:33:35 <Bike> i do work in a lab that maintains zebrafish...
03:33:46 <Bike> "what a racket"
03:34:03 <Bike> good news, no species called chickenfish.
03:34:21 <Bike> we'll just have to stick with tuna.
03:36:36 <Bike> I read a neat paper on the tuning of fish once.
03:36:42 <Bike> Cave fish don't have circadian frequencies.
03:37:26 <quintopia> what would they synchronize them with? i think that's kinda a no brainer
03:37:55 <Bike> well, that's the interesting thing, you can establish something of a frequency if you feed them at regular intervals.
03:38:26 <quintopia> in the wild, they dont feed on any schedule
03:38:41 <Bike> so, they require tuning.
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04:06:55 <ais523> it'd be better if this was the setup to a really complex tuna fish joke, rather than being the discussion after a boring one
04:07:46 <Bike> i haven't got anything better than "so, you can tuna fish, under certain circumstances" which is a pretty shit joke.
04:07:50 <Bike> the fish is from somalia. is that humorous?
04:08:38 <shachaf> did you see my hopeless attempt with RULES a while ago
04:09:37 <ion> shachaf: I saw you mention it but didn’t see it.
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04:15:26 <drlemon> I was reminded of this place when in my programming class i was given free time to program with anything, and i decided to teach myself befunge
04:15:40 <drlemon> and then i went "Oh yeah, #esoteric!" and came online
04:15:53 <Bike> `relcome drlemon
04:16:01 <HackEgo> drlemon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:16:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rwelcome: not found
04:16:23 <Bike> `run ls bin | grep come
04:16:24 <drlemon> I got that before. This is my 3rd time here, each time i've been welcomed
04:16:25 <HackEgo> ozcome \ relcome \ rwlcome \ welcome \ welcome \ welcome13 \ wercome
04:16:36 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:18:18 <Bike> i didn't rwlcome you. I just rwlcomed in general. Don't be presumptuous.
04:19:08 <drlemon> Bike: (if that was sarcasm, i do not sarcasm good)
04:19:23 <Bike> i was joking. you can presume i am welcoming you if you want to.
04:20:14 <drlemon> I am not the kind of guy who takes sarcasm good. I deal it out, but i suck at being on the receiving end.
04:20:51 <drlemon> anyway, i taught myself the basics of befunge
04:22:02 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
04:26:23 <Bike> it's fungot's source. in befunge.
04:26:23 <fungot> Bike: i'm not sure whether or not a uri then? ( letrec ( ( p q))
04:26:33 <Bike> me neither, man, me neither.
04:26:58 <drlemon> I wish there was a mac brainfuck interpreter that didn't have me messing around with C
04:32:19 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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05:17:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: jrypbzr: not found
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06:00:29 <ais523> is that a rot13'd welcome?
06:00:41 <ais523> also why do we have so many stupid welcome variants anyway?
06:28:19 <fizzie> Because we are friendly and affable?
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06:32:24 <ais523> I don't mind sensible welcome variants
06:32:27 <ais523> it's the stupid ones I object to
06:32:36 <ais523> like, welcoming someone in rot13 isn't really even a welcome
06:32:55 <Bike> i only use informative, hand-crafted welcomes.
06:34:10 <kmc> artisinal small-batch
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06:42:13 <shachaf> hm i have a Chromecast but nothing with hdmi input
06:43:40 <fizzie> Maybe you could hack it to stream the output over wifi too.
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06:47:19 <shachaf> i suspect my employer wouldn't be too happy about that
06:48:14 <kmc> is that like having time enough at last to read all the books in the world, but then your glasses break?
06:49:08 <shachaf> joke's on you, i take my glasses off to read anyway
06:52:01 <kmc> i wonder if it's possible to register ꙭ.рф
06:54:08 <shachaf> did you know .טעסט is a tld
06:54:40 <kmc> whatsit mean
06:54:51 <shachaf> i think it's yiddish for "test"
06:55:05 <shachaf> anyway transliterated it would be "test"
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07:21:21 <fizzie> Bike: Continuing the "best MATLAB code" series, here's what I just came across: eval(['fid=fopen(flist',num2str(nlist),',''r'');']);
07:22:39 <Bike> do the quotes with r actually work
07:22:55 <fizzie> Apparently that's a legal way to escape.
07:23:01 <Bike> oh, i misread, yeah ok.
07:23:06 <fizzie> It just keeps on going in that way: eval(['RIR=wavread(RIR_sim',num2str(rcount),');']);
07:23:40 <fizzie> I don't really understand why, all these functions accepting file names are just fine with something like wavread(['RIR_sim' num2str(count)]).
07:24:02 <fizzie> eval(['wavwrite(y(:,',num2str(ch),'),16000,''',save_dir_tr fname,'_ch',num2str(ch),'.wav'');']);
07:24:41 <Bike> makes perfect sense
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09:19:19 <oerjan> `run diff bin/{oz,rwl}come
09:21:19 <HackEgo> 2c2 \ < welcome "$@" | rainwords \ --- \ > welcome "$@" | rainbow
09:22:19 <FireFly> `run ? firefly | rainwords
09:22:22 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
09:22:48 <FireFly> rainwords should probably do 01..09 instead of 1..9
09:23:17 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + str(r[(i+s)%len(r)]) + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
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09:57:25 <fizzie> @tell Bike Quitting won't save you from MATLAB. (Cf. fac=numbers*ones(1,32).*(sum(mask')>=numbers)+sum(mask').*(sum(mask')<numbers);)
09:58:26 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, that's equivalent to max(sum(mask, 2), numbers);
09:59:21 <fizzie> (Except for breaking down if 'mask' doesn't have the expected number of rows (32).)
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10:10:15 <ion> <…> omg <…> sain just tietää et meillä on company anthem <…> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRTf3UXCpiE <…> shamelevel^10
10:10:18 <ion> (“i just found out we have a company anthem”)
10:17:09 <Jafet> Do they sing it at stand-ups
10:19:16 <Jafet> `run sed 's/str(.*)\])/"%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)]/' bin/rainwords
10:19:17 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
10:19:54 <Jafet> `run sed -i -e 's/str(.*)\])/"%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)]/' bin/rainwords && `run ? firefly | rainwords
10:19:55 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
10:20:14 <Jafet> `run sed -i -e 's/str(.*)\])/"%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)]/' bin/rainwords && ? firefly | rainwords
10:20:20 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
10:35:40 <^v> i met le director
10:35:52 <^v> was about to stab him
10:36:00 <^v> (he was cool)
10:36:36 * ^v was expecting another welcome
10:36:49 <Taneb> ^v: are you watching Agents of SHIELD?
10:37:03 <^v> i dont watch tv much
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12:05:09 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/FC5VM2S.png
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12:24:01 <fizziew> The electric company just sent me a SMS about electricity going out at home. Very fancy, very modern.
12:24:21 <fizziew> Though the fact that it just says "we're working to fix this, ETA: no idea" (paraphrasing) made it not terribly useful.
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12:36:46 <boily> good battle-against-fontconfig morning!
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13:58:01 <fizzie> !SENT_START OPERATING INCOME FROM HOTELS AT TWENTY ONE MILLION DOLLARS AND TWENTY THREE POINT EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS !SENT_END
13:58:20 <fizzie> WSJ recognizer output manages to look like an old-fashioned telegram always.
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14:16:32 <boily> googling for what people say in this chännel almost always result with way more questions than what I started with → http://www.isip.piconepress.com/courses/msstate/ece_7000_speech/lectures/1999/lecture_06/presentation/data/cmu_wb.lm
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14:59:02 <Bike_> enabling ipv6 makes the network unreachable. ok, irssi.
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16:12:30 <oerjan> `addquote -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). [...] <fizzie> @tell Bike Quitting won't save you from MATLAB. [...]
16:12:35 <HackEgo> 1121) -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). [...] <fizzie> @tell Bike Quitting won't save you from MATLAB. [...]
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16:24:19 * oerjan fails at finding the japanese version of the fujitsu anthem
16:24:45 <oerjan> i assume this stuff is completely normal in japan.
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16:43:21 <Phantom__Hoover> My laptop clock claims to be displaying BST, but is in fact an hour fast
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16:45:17 <boily> back from lunch, I learn fujitsu has an anthem, and Phantom__Hoover is unstuck in time.
16:45:54 <NihilistDandy> Phantom__Hoover: Take this moment of timelessness to read HoTT in an instant
16:47:45 <oerjan> i also see BST and BDT both as equal to UTC at the moment.
16:48:00 <oerjan> if Phantom__Hoover had the good sense to be present, i'd suggest using WET.
16:48:28 <Phantom__Hoover> for god's sake setting a clock back an hour cannot be this hard
16:49:07 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: well assuming you want to be 1 hour off UTC, WET works here
16:49:46 <oerjan> and presumably takes care of daylight saving
16:50:26 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: um is your UTC time correct? if so you shouldn't set the clock, only the timezone. assuming you're on linux.
16:50:50 <Phantom__Hoover> my UTC time clearly isn't correct because the time it's displaying is an hour off BST
16:50:59 <boily> oerjan: the Japanese Fujitsu Anthem is unfindable. I searched for 富士通 {,歌,アンセム,聖歌}, and nothing relevant came through.
16:51:49 <boily> Phantom__Hoover: are you running ntpd?
16:52:55 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: um afaik britain, like most of europe, is currently on daylight saving.
16:53:21 <Phantom__Hoover> that's what BST means! the time my system clock is displaying as BST is an hour off from what is actually BST
16:54:18 <oerjan> oh wait never mind my tests, i think it displays UTC if it doesn't have the timezone data, but somehow still uses the given name.
16:54:54 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: well i'm just asking if you've tried date -u
16:54:56 <Phantom__Hoover> welp, i installed ntp and did ntpd -q... and my time remains as wrong as ever
16:54:57 <boily> meanwhile, geek stuff → http://youtu.be/b0YC3RpvE3M
16:55:24 <boily> Phantom__Hoover: have you configured ntp to get the correct timezone? and usually, you have to wait a while for ntp to correct time.
16:55:25 <oerjan> since the error could be either in the genuine clock or in the timezone data.
16:55:36 <boily> (it only works by increments, so not to disrupt the rest of the System)
16:55:42 <Phantom__Hoover> note that the date i'm getting is an hour fast; it's UTC+2, which shouldn't be displaying on any clock in britain, ever
16:56:28 <boily> @localtime Phantom__Hoover
16:56:29 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom__Hoover is Thu Oct 17 18:54:44
16:56:59 <asie> tfw i lack anything to code
16:57:04 <asie> other than horrid minecraft mods
16:57:13 <NihilistDandy> Are you in one of those towns where they don't recognize DST? :D
16:57:15 <Phantom__Hoover> and back when summer time started i didn't adjust my watch, so there was a 2-hour disparity between it and the computer
16:57:33 <Phantom__Hoover> NihilistDandy, like i just said, the error goes the wrong way for it to be a summer time thing
16:57:56 <pikhq> Did you do TZ=BST or some such? :)
16:58:07 <olsner> did you recently reboot into/from windows?
16:58:30 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, i do have a dual boot, although this problem has been around for as long as i can remember
16:58:36 <pikhq> TZ=BST will make it display "BST", but not do any time zone calculations.
16:58:38 <olsner> then it might have synced, stored local time, then linux comes and thinks it's UTC and adds a time zone
16:59:09 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: i _still_ want you to do date -u please
16:59:52 <oerjan> ok then it's not the timezone setting :P
16:59:58 <pikhq> K, so your system clock is set to local time.
17:00:12 <olsner> Phantom__Hoover: set the time to the right time
17:00:29 <oerjan> is this a dual boot with windows or such
17:00:44 <olsner> but there may be one or more settings that change how your OSes interpret the system clock
17:01:19 <fizzie> olsner: The settings to make Windows interpret system clock as UTC are iffy.
17:01:44 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: ic so windows and linux may have different ideas of how the system clock is stored
17:02:01 <olsner> maybe something like date -s "one hour ago"
17:02:26 <olsner> unless that's the wrong direction
17:02:47 <oerjan> and this means trouble of course
17:02:59 <fizzie> olsner: I read about them when last installing a dual boot system, and it seemed like it's theoretically possible, but not altogether wise. (The hwclock-in-localtime-and-tell-Linux-that approach is more supported.)
17:03:13 <oerjan> especially if both os'es try to set the clock from a time server
17:03:18 <pikhq> Getting Linux to use a hw clock in localtime depends on your distro.
17:03:41 <pikhq> Which distro are you using?
17:04:10 <pikhq> timedatectl set-local-rtc true
17:05:53 <oerjan> i wonder if that works well when changing between daylight saving and not
17:05:57 <fizzie> For some reason Arch wiki recommends the "configure Windows to use UTC" approach even though it involves some registry editing and has bugs.
17:06:28 <oerjan> or if windows and linux will mess up changing it
17:06:29 <pikhq> oerjan: Not really.
17:06:39 <boily> during the Age of the Rc.conf, it was easy to set your HWCLOCK to localtime, but now I don't know how.
17:06:53 <pikhq> It's necessarily slightly wonky, though less so if you've got ntpd going.
17:07:01 <pikhq> (hint: you should)
17:08:14 <oerjan> unless there is some hw place to save the current local timezone offset that both would use.
17:08:40 <olsner> if there was we wouldn't have this problem
17:08:48 <boily> run windows in a VM?
17:09:07 <pikhq> The RTC is just a wall clock.
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17:12:31 <fizzie> You're lucky there is even a century field in there; UTC offsets would be quite a lot to ask.
17:12:34 <fizzie> (And where the century is stored is not standard, so you need to read its location from ACPI.)
17:12:53 <pikhq> The century field was a later addition, for that matter.
17:14:29 <pikhq> Though a trivial way of getting that to work would be to just assume that you never would use a BIOS in 1969 or earlier. :P
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17:20:45 <Gregor> pikhq: Way to break my circa-1985 computers in 2070.
17:22:12 <pikhq> I'd be impressed if the capacitors still worked.
17:23:24 <boily> I should buy myself something with vacuum tubes one day.
17:23:50 <fizzie> "it87: Beeping is supported" "yay"
17:27:27 <Gregor> pikhq: I was recently looking for a way to make an SNES emulator's output look like it should have over composite on a CRT TV.
17:27:39 <Gregor> I'm shocked that none of the output plugins do such things.
17:28:03 <Gregor> They all do random bullshit like adding scanlines (something you wouldn't have noticed on a TV of the appropriate era) or making things /sharper/ instead of softer.
17:28:54 <boily> pikhq: probably not a CRT. I'm sure I'd find a way to induce grievous bodily harm on multiple persons after a sudden implexplosion.
17:31:26 <oerjan> exploding the imps in your tv
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17:33:52 <coppro> woot, got accepted to grad school!
17:34:47 <NihilistDandy> Gregor: I'm sure I saw a project for the NES (or maybe the SNES) that did that
17:35:10 <boily> coppro: which one?
17:35:47 <Gregor> NihilistDandy: I did a semi-decent job of simulating it in post by recording the output and then using mplayer filters. Something like -vf unsharp=c5x3:-2,unsharp=l5x1:-1
17:36:56 <Gregor> It's mildly less relevant for the NES since its resolution was much lower than NTSC anyway :3
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17:38:03 <NihilistDandy> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higan_%28emulator%29
17:38:34 <Gregor> I didn't know bsnes had changed its name...
17:38:55 <Gregor> I ALSO didn't know it claimed to do anything clever in display filtering.
17:39:39 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, apparently they got super serious about scanlines
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17:40:00 <boily> coppro: makes sense.
17:40:20 <Gregor> Most emulators do really retarded, bad scanline emulation in post, but bsnes/higan certainly wouldn't because that's against its entire purpose. Probably worth looking into...
17:52:15 <pikhq> Gregor: Actually, emulating NTSC artifacts matters a bit more for the NES because its output produced weird artifacting that some games used for more color.
17:52:35 <pikhq> The NES used a square wave color burst, for instance.
17:52:59 <Gregor> Ohyeah... EGA games did that too, didn't they? Like olde King's Quest games had an option for whether your output was an RGB monitor or composite...
17:53:28 <Gregor> (So that it could generate more colors over composite)
17:54:22 <NihilistDandy> "More colors" meaning "everything is oversaturated to hell" (Looking at you KQ5)
17:54:44 <Gregor> KQ5 is in the VGA era, surely it never anticipated composite output.
17:54:55 <Gregor> I think KQ3 was the last EGA one. Maybe KQ4.
17:56:00 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/CGA_Composite_Vs_RGB_640_Smaller_File.png Good times.
17:56:05 <NihilistDandy> I suppose so. I guess it was just way oversaturated, then :D
17:56:39 <boily> IIIIEEEEEURGH! mine eyes!
17:57:01 <pikhq> Beats the shit out of normal CGA graphics.
17:57:36 <pikhq> 4-color palletes, anyone? :)
17:57:52 <boily> hmm... I wonder if I can get sopwith running again...
17:58:48 <Gregor> pikhq: Well, EGA at least gave us 16 glorious colors
17:58:58 <pikhq> Though amazingly you can get much better color res out of CGA graphics if you're clever.
17:59:21 <pikhq> http://www.deathshadow.com/images/pakuMenu.png CGA graphics.
18:00:03 <boily> woot! there's a package in the AUR, and it works!
18:00:27 * boily sings the sopwith theme... dooo do-dooo, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo do-doooooo ♪
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18:07:19 <fizzie> I've got diverging clocks in Xen PV domains, even though the documentation said I need to enable extra things to even make that possible. (I didn't install NTP on them because the documentation says they run synchronomized.)
18:07:57 <fizzie> I guess it could be just outdated documentation, the sysctl it mentions does not seem to exist.
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18:39:17 <HackEgo> wisdom/bdsmreclist \ wisdom/danddreclist \ wisdom/list \ wisdom/olist \ wisdom/slist
18:39:54 <HackEgo> * oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
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18:45:09 <boily> fizzie: have you obliterated fungot once again?
18:45:16 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
18:46:11 <HackEgo> 2008-10-22.txt:19:23:23: <thutubot> xxxx
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18:48:30 <fizzie> Yes, it went with the power.
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18:48:40 <boily> the more I read about world languages phonologies, the more I believe Swedish is the Ultimate-Has-Every-Phoneme language.
18:48:54 <boily> fizzie: so, is it... dead? :(
18:49:06 <Bike> does swedish even have ejective consonants!
18:49:07 <olsner> what, swedish has only normal sounds
18:49:25 <boily> well, it at least seems to cover just about every vowel.
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18:53:18 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/hMdR9mV.jpg that's something.
18:53:47 <FireFly> Wait, it isn't the default in the UK?
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18:58:58 <oerjan> boily: i don't think swedish has ı
19:01:27 <boily> oerjan: [ɪ], as in the lax close front unrounded vowel?
19:02:27 <oerjan> no, [ɯ], as in turkish
19:03:10 <boily> indeed, from a quick eye-grep, no attestation of [ɯ] in Swedish.
19:03:23 <olsner> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_back_unrounded_vowel? how on earth can they spell this ı
19:04:17 <oerjan> olsner: by analogy of ö vs. o or ü vs. u
19:05:26 <oerjan> all of which turkish also has
19:05:53 <oerjan> it uses e rather than ä though.
19:06:05 <fizzie> I (no pun intended) remember there was a funny story about ı and computers; sadly, don't remember what.
19:06:17 <oerjan> the turkish vowels follow a cubic arrangement.
19:06:45 <olsner> lower case I is dotless-i, and uppercase i is dotted I?
19:07:10 <fizzie> "Many cellphones available in Turkey (as of 2008) lack a proper localization, which leads to replacing “ı” by “i” in SMS, sometimes severely distorting the sense of a text. In one instance, a miscommunication led to the deaths of Emine and Ramazan Çalçoban in 2008.[3]"
19:07:15 <fizzie> Perhaps "funny" was not the right word.
19:08:11 <fizzie> "The use of "i" resulted in an SMS with a completely twisted meaning: instead of writing the word "sıkısınca" it looked like he wrote "sikisince." Ramazan wanted to write "You change the topic every time you run out of arguments" (sounds familiar enough) but what Emine read was, "You change the topic every time they are fucking you" (sounds familiar too.)"
19:08:24 <fizzie> Then her father killed the guy.
19:09:08 <olsner> maybe the miscommunication was not the whole reason
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19:11:35 <fizzie> olsner: Possibly some amount of blame lies on the people doing the actual stabbing in addition to the phone.
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19:32:35 <fizzie> Huh. Just now noticed that plain 'mplayer' doesn't use any of the VDPAU-accelerated codecs by default. On a 640x360 H.264 video (from Yle Areena), "mplayer blah.flv" takes about 10% of CPU while "mplayer -vc ffh264vdpau" takes 2.5%.
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19:34:41 <FireFly> fungot: what's your wisdom for today?
19:34:41 <fungot> FireFly: this would be definieable behaviour... they'd like recognition, but it's much like new zealand, in my opinion is what i wanted
19:35:06 <boily> ~duck definition of definieable
19:35:20 <boily> oh well. I should have known.
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19:35:48 <boily> and I really ought to visit New Hobb^H^H^H^HZealand in the future.
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19:46:56 <boily> fungot: Oh freddled gruntbuggly, thy micturations are to me
19:46:56 <fungot> boily: chicken moves fast, though. ( english as well
19:47:07 <fizzie> fungot: Why did the chicken move fast?
19:47:08 <fungot> fizzie: you only have +'s, what then? feed me with your ' fnord there an expression of irritation
19:48:32 * boily feeds fungot some «'»
19:48:32 <fungot> boily: paying flatmate or significant other? don't say all pleasse i will when he comes here in the first
19:48:58 <boily> fungot: you'll have to talk to your landlord about rent problems. I can't do nothing for that.
19:48:59 <fungot> boily: wait, duh, using `darcs get` will do step 2 create your own repository, make it really useful.
19:49:12 <boily> darcs can pay rent? another neat Haskell usage!
19:49:17 <FireFly> I don't think that'll help with your rent
19:49:27 <FireFly> but if it does, I agree it's really useful
19:49:45 <fizzie> Am I technically fungot's landlord? I guess I might be.
19:49:45 <fungot> fizzie: i am in fnord universe :p
19:50:13 <FireFly> I think that might be a "no"
19:50:24 <boily> I think that might be a resounding “yes”
19:50:52 <fungot> FireFly: are those many things include impression?? :d?
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19:51:30 <boily> so fungot is under the delusional impression that fizzie's his landlord.
19:51:43 <boily> i/o, i/o, it's off to pay our rent we go ♪
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21:11:57 <Bike> fizzie: so that matlabism from before, i replaced it with just rand(...) <= foo, and now everything takes six or seven more seconds to run. ?????
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21:14:59 <fizzie> Bike: Did you unreplace it and did that make things faster again?
21:16:25 <Bike> positively bafed
21:16:59 <Bike> i hope to god this thing isn't feeding me
21:17:12 <fizzie> It's weird, because the earlier version included the "rand(...) <= foo" as a component.
21:17:41 <fizzie> You should try out how a bar = double(rand(...) <= foo); performs.
21:17:44 <Bike> i'm isolating it and trying some testing there. i must be missing something.
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21:21:58 <Bike> well, the rand is about five times faster (both are less than a tenth of a millisecond so whatever) so i guess it must be in accessing it?
21:22:17 <fizzie> I guess it's not *entirely* impossible for find(A <= B) to JIT into something that does not involve an intermediate logical matrix, which could possibly affect the runtimes somehow, though generally I don't think MATLAB does terribly major reorganizations, and it's still weird if it's significantly faster.
21:22:48 <Bike> i'll try the double thing.
21:22:59 <fizzie> I'm not sure what "the rand" is, because both involved a rand. I guess the simplified version?
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21:25:25 <Bike> yeah, ok, coercing it to double fixes the time again.
21:25:39 <Bike> here i was thinking your mention of hypothetically different behavior was a joke.
21:26:02 <fizzie> That was for the find-vs-simple-rand difference.
21:26:13 <fizzie> Anyway, then there is probably something later on involving that matrix that requires a type conversion.
21:26:43 <fizzie> Many things can do that, for example involving it somewhere where there's a "1" or "0" instead of "true" or "false".
21:27:05 <fizzie> See e.g. http://sprunge.us/dAaa (though that's a bit more reasonable, since the summing is obviously a numeric thing).
21:27:19 <Bike> the only operations on it are == 0 and == 1... oh, true and false, is that so ¬_¬
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21:28:22 <Bike> If you have logicalmatrix(foo,bar) == 1 does it upgrade everything to doubles first or something.
21:29:10 <fizzie> See http://sprunge.us/XVaH
21:29:32 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's not entirely the whole truth.
21:29:37 <fizzie> But I wouldn't put it past MATLAB.
21:30:25 <fizzie> It is entirely possible that will also happen for == true and == false.
21:30:52 <fizzie> But really, for a logical x, doing x == 0 and x == 1 is kind of silly, since the first is ~x and the second is x.
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21:31:24 <fizzie> Of course you might prefer to be expressive, but sometimes tradeoffs have to be made.
21:32:28 <Bike> doing your thing with == false speeds it up slightly, i'll see how it works
21:33:05 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/TITW <- well, that was a very MATLAB result.
21:33:46 <fizzie> The situation might also change depending on whether the code is in a function or a script, I think there's differences when it goes to JIT.
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21:35:37 <Bike> if nothing else the double() version doesn't reduce speed but removes the ridiculous idiom.
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21:38:02 <fizzie> Today I ran across a 40-line block of code to take a vector and replace its (contiguous sequences of) NaNs with either a repeated one neighbor or a linear interpolation between two neighbors, depending on whether the NaN-run was in the middle or at beginning/end of the vector.
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21:38:38 <fizzie> I turned it into 19 lines, but I'm sure it could still be MATLABized further.
21:38:48 <fizzie> Also the comprehensibility went down a bit.
21:39:06 <fizzie> Or maybe not, depends.
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21:40:06 <fizzie> t = diff([0;x;0]); st = find(t == 1); en = find(t == -1) - 1; is perhaps not quite obvious-at-a-glance way of saying "get first and last indices of all contiguous sequences of 1s".
21:40:58 <Bike> so uh, what's a sed to replace (TnKO.*==) 0 with \0 false, because i'm not getting it
21:41:33 <Bike> oh, it's \1 instead.
21:41:34 <fizzie> Should that not be \1 false?
21:41:36 <Bike> \0 is the whole string?
21:41:46 <Bike> i am the worst unixer
21:42:16 <fizzie> I did get to replace http://sprunge.us/PbBE with a single interp1(...) call.
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21:44:09 <Bike> thanks for letting me suffer through this here
21:44:45 <fizzie> A shared MATLAB joy is a double()d MATLAB joy.
21:46:17 <Bike> it's still slower after switching in true and false. whateeeever
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21:49:29 <fizzie> Yeah, there's something there in the types that I don't quite grasp. I added == false to this "benchmark" of http://sprunge.us/VFRK and everything seems to take slightly different amount of time.
21:50:09 <fizzie> But for a logical array, there certainly seems to be a win for ~t over either of t == 0 or t == false.
21:51:01 <fizzie> Also in that synthetic benchmark the logical does always better than the double-cast, so I suppose your scenario differs by some subtle way.
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21:53:56 <fizzie> Oh well. At least the times aren't different for 0/false vs. 1/true: http://sprunge.us/ADdZ (the "do-nothing" versions are slightly non-applicable, but do show that t == 1 for a logical t can in fact waste quite some time)
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22:02:53 <kmc> note: `layout_chan` moved into closure environment here because it has type `~fn:Send((std::option::Option<std::comm::Port<script::script_task::ScriptMsg>>,std::comm::SharedChan<net::resource_task::ControlMsg>,extra::future::Future<geom::size::Size2D<uint>>,std::comm::Port<gfx::render_task::Msg<script::dom::node::AbstractNode<()>>>,std::comm::Port<script::layout_interface::Msg>,msg::constellation_msg::ConstellationChan,std::comm::Sh
22:03:22 <shachaf> kmc: -dsuppress-module-prefixes plz thx
22:04:06 <kmc> and then an ICE
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22:56:15 <kmc> gregor rolls 50 deep
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23:00:11 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, any response from elliott re: DF
23:04:17 <Taneb> fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine
23:04:32 <kmc> shachaf: is that a rustc flag?
23:04:45 <Taneb> kmc, do you play DF
23:05:13 <kmc> have enough time-consuming habits already
23:10:17 <Taneb> shachaf, do you play DF
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23:21:02 <drlemon> my friend decided to write a bf interpreter in python. Then he did it.
23:21:27 <Taneb> drlemon, get your friend to write a python interpreter in bf
23:21:46 <drlemon> Taneb: That's what they said when i told the other channel i lurk on!
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23:24:44 <drlemon> It SUCKS at long programs and can't exactly handle input, but it can print fine!
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23:39:32 <kmc> why does it suck at long programs
23:41:23 <kmc> find out, report back
23:42:21 <drlemon> kmc: Want to see the program?
23:43:21 <kmc> I suppose so
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23:47:12 <kmc> that's a lot of duplicated code
23:47:18 <Bike> oh thank god it's not a crypto puzzle.
23:47:26 <kmc> also does it handle nested brackets properly?
23:47:49 <Bike> doesn't look like it.
23:48:07 <kmc> imo write a Brainfuck -> Python compiler and feed the result to exec()
23:48:10 <shachaf> Bike: i have a crypto puzzle for you!! decrypt this: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
23:48:16 <kmc> it'll be shorter
23:48:28 <kmc> shachaf: it says "SHACHAF SUCKS"
23:48:56 <kmc> it lies tho!
23:49:10 <Bike> hoist by his own encrypted petard
23:49:19 <drlemon> shachaf: that's unary, i assume?
23:50:14 <drlemon> And by the way, i'm 14. I'm only saying that so you have context for the fact that the guy who wrote that BF interpreter, is also 14.
23:50:37 <pikhq> Sounds 'bout right.
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23:51:02 <Taneb> Aaaah, I remember being 14
23:51:17 <Taneb> I've completely forgotten that year
23:52:04 <Bike> the compiler could basically be written as a map+append, right
23:52:05 <drlemon> VmxSQ2ExWXlUWGxUYTJoUVVrUkJPUT09 base 64
23:52:27 <Bike> i think i honestly don't remember enough python to do it correctly off the top of my head though :\
23:52:38 <drlemon> i like befunge more than brainfuck
23:53:29 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
23:54:51 <shachaf> kmc: will i see you at mozilla tomorrow
23:56:02 <kmc> when are you coming by?
23:56:47 <shachaf> maybe i'll get around there at 17/18ish? the talk is at 19ish
23:59:11 <Bike> hm, i think the indentation thing makes the brainfuck to python compiler annoying
23:59:59 <kmc> shachaf: where in the building is it?
00:01:37 <kmc> i'll be around then probably
00:01:40 <kmc> don't know if I'll stay for the talk
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00:44:28 <kmc> perhaps shaped charges will fix my makefile
00:45:55 <Sgeo> Fine, I'll type it out
00:46:24 <Sgeo> "This whole subject of writing seemingly referentially opaque macros with syntax rules has been /actually/ inspired by a practical application."
00:52:48 <Sgeo> I had a memory leak in a script I wrote a while back
00:52:53 <Sgeo> Had to use the script today
00:52:57 <Sgeo> It ate around 13GB
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01:11:19 <kmc> why does it leak memory
01:14:49 <kmc> drlemon: http://web.archive.org/web/20130917111816/http://fmota.eu/blog/base64-fixed-point.html
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01:33:02 <Sgeo> kmc: I forgot to destroy the prepared statements, which I made in a loop
01:33:34 <Sgeo> Mutable entities in Tcl don't get garbage collected
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01:36:01 <kmc> is that because the "references" between them are strings and therefore impossible to trace?
01:36:22 <Sgeo> Pretty much, yes
01:36:30 <kmc> i shuold learn Tcl
01:37:31 <kmc> Sgeo, what do you think of Rust's macro system? http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/tutorial-macros.html
01:39:44 <Sgeo> Is pattern-matching the only form of macros available (not done reading yet)
01:42:27 <kmc> it's the only kind which doesn't involve editing the compiler
01:43:03 <kmc> syntactically when you see foo!(bar) it could be invoking a user-defined macro or a compiler-defined syntax extension
01:43:20 <Sgeo> But bar can be anything?
01:43:35 <Sgeo> Can it be arbitrary strings, or is there some form in which it needs to be in to be parsable?
01:44:01 <kmc> I think for macros it can be any sequence of valid Rust tokens, where () [] {} are properly nested and balanced
01:44:27 <kmc> Rust programs are parsed to a "token tree" before a full AST, and that's where macro expansion happens
01:45:09 <kmc> the token tree expresses the nesting structure of () [] {} and contains other tokens as leaves
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01:45:51 <kmc> in fact I think that secretly you can have a macro syntax variable $x:tt to take an arbitrary token tree, rather than the documented e.g. $x:expr which will parse that part of the tree as an expr before expanding the macro
01:46:06 <kmc> not sure tho
01:46:59 <kmc> "As a final, horrifying aside, note that macro-by-example's input is also matched by one of these matchers. Holy self-referential!"
01:47:44 <kmc> i don't have the context to know what that comment means, just pasting for amusement
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02:02:47 <drlemon> Would it be possible to add Fugue or Velato notes over a normal audio file at inaudable frequencies?
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02:57:33 <shachaf> Sgeo: do we delete lists after they're finished
02:57:43 <kmc> Sgeo: here's the macro I wrote today: https://github.com/kmcallister/servo/blob/8bd9be7240faf751b7d23e3d9a65a3db8adf3496/src/components/main/macros.rs#L14-L24
02:58:47 <kmc> it turns «spawn_with!(task(), [foo, bar], { ...blah blah... })» into «do task().spawn_with((foo,bar)) |(foo,bar)| { ...blah blah... }»
02:59:16 <kmc> which is itself sugar for «task().spawn_with((foo,bar), |(foo,bar)| { ...blah blah... })»
02:59:28 <kmc> the second argument to spawn_with is a lambda expression taking a tuple as an argument
02:59:44 <kmc> as for why we need to explicitly name (some of) the captured variables, there's a good-ish reason for that, which I can explain later
02:59:47 <kmc> but -> afk now
03:00:45 <Sgeo> shachaf: lists in Tcl are immutable strings, which are GCed
03:01:29 <kmc> `echo bin/*list
03:01:39 <kmc> `run echo bin/*list
03:01:41 <HackEgo> bin/danddreclist bin/emptylist bin/erflist bin/instalist bin/list bin/llist bin/makelist bin/mlist bin/olist bin/oohlist bin/pbflist bin/slist bin/smlist bin/testlist
03:03:04 <Bike> `run echo 'rm bin/slist' >> bin/slist # There.
03:04:32 <Bike> oh, that won't work.
03:04:53 <drlemon> shachaf: It works on #xkcd
03:05:02 <drlemon> That's where i usually lurk
03:05:18 <drlemon> or the ++ thing has bot responses
03:05:43 <drlemon> one could say it is... *puts on sunglasses*... BOTOMATED
03:06:51 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/exit/rm bin\/slist/; exit' bin/slist
03:06:56 <HackEgo> sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found
03:07:04 <Bike> i've learned a frightening amount about sed from this channel.
03:07:22 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/exit/rm bin\/slist; exit/' bin/slist
03:07:45 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; ez ova/fyvfg \ Gnaro \ ngevd \ Atriq \ Svben \ abeggv \ Ftrb \ GungBgureCrefba \ nybg
03:07:48 <elliott> it doesn't look like slist is actually over, just it only has one more run left
03:08:02 <Bike> So now slist is set up to delete itself after that one more run.
03:08:04 <shachaf> Wait, "run" means more than one update?
03:08:08 <Bike> All nice and tidy and completely reasonable.
03:08:32 <Bike> no it was fine!
03:08:41 <Bike> elliott you're ruining the whole system with your propaganda.
03:09:12 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/exit/rm bin\/slist\; exit/' bin/slist
03:09:19 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; ez ova/fyvfg; rkvg \ Gnaro \ ngevd \ Atriq \ Svben \ abeggv \ Ftrb \ GungBgureCrefba \ nybg
03:09:32 <Bike> huh, what's ; do in sed
03:09:48 <Bike> how come it didn't tell you about an unterminated / then?
03:09:54 <shachaf> Because you don't need a final /
03:10:05 <shachaf> `run echo abc | sed 's/b/q'
03:10:07 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 5: unterminated `s' command
03:10:24 <shachaf> `run echo abc | sed 's/b/q; exit'
03:10:26 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 11: unterminated `s' command
03:10:28 <shachaf> `run echo abc | sed 's/b/q; exit/'
03:10:33 <Bike> well, i guess ; terminates it.
03:10:43 <Bike> btw it's great how basically every confusing thing about shell is due to mixing up strings and arguments and stuff
03:10:59 <shachaf> `run sed 's/exit/rm bin\/slist\; exit/' bin/slist | head -n1
03:11:01 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; rm bin/slist; rm bin/slist; exit
03:14:09 <shachaf> OK, where did the exit go?
03:14:47 <shachaf> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/fd7b8d987a01
03:15:53 <Bike> what if we just execute taneb
03:17:20 <Bike> `run sed 's/slist/slist\; exit/' bin/slist | head -n1
03:17:22 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; rm bin/slist; exit; exit
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03:17:51 <Bike> oh well i guess it's finenow.
03:18:26 <shachaf> why am i even aware of this slist thing
03:20:50 <Bike> `pastelogs bike
03:21:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10413
03:22:14 <Bike> `pastequotes bike
03:22:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16742
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05:41:43 <Sgeo> 447 and dead bodies, two great tastes that taste great together
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06:19:51 <Sgeo> `slist News: Gigapause
06:19:56 <HackEgo> slist News: Gigapause: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:20:29 <Sgeo> It's of relevance to Homestuck readers
06:20:37 <Bike> `cat bin/slist
06:20:39 <HackEgo> cat: bin/slist: No such file or directory
06:20:43 <Bike> you don't understand.
06:21:52 <Bike> `cat bin/slist
06:21:53 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; rm bin/slist; exit \ Taneb \ atriq \ Ngevd \ Fiora \ nortti \ Sgeo \ ThatOtherPerson \ alot
06:22:02 <Bike> one more update, sgeo!!
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06:47:20 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renshaw_cell
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07:49:50 <Taneb> ...I've been reading Homestuck for over 4 years
07:50:05 <Taneb> I've been reading Homestuck for over 20% of my life
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08:10:45 <kmc> helloerjan
08:19:44 <kmc> how's it going
08:21:44 <Taneb> You know everything goes wrong when I try to update anything?
08:22:04 <Taneb> Please be on standby
08:22:35 <oerjan> that's why i never update hth
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08:54:31 <oerjan> <kmc> drlemon: http://web.archive.org/web/20130917111816/http://fmota.eu/blog/base64-fixed-point.html <-- not the most archiveable page :(
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08:56:09 <fizzie> The math seems to have a broken.
08:56:09 <oerjan> i think Taneb may have updated himself permanently off our channel
08:56:22 <oerjan> and the comments section isn't too good either :P
08:57:56 <oerjan> oklofok: btw i think this may mean base64 has an associated minimal shift system.
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08:59:21 <fizzie> oerjan: Aren't you supposed to continue a start like that with some sort of a "your mom" joke?
08:59:36 <oerjan> it's _almost_ a substitution shift system, like thue-morse
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10:01:53 <Taneb> The other night for some reason I was at a Project Euler night
10:02:18 <Taneb> (where people get together and do Project Euler problem
10:02:19 <fizzie> Didn't know that was a thing.
10:03:32 <Taneb> Anyway, someone was trying to do the first problem, really struggling with it
10:03:39 <Taneb> He had about 30 lines of C++
10:04:10 <fizzie> Oh, it's that three-and-five thing. I've seen that in many places.
10:04:29 <FireFly> Is the first one the one that's basically fizzbuzz?
10:04:44 <fizzie> Sum of all multiples of 3 or 5 below 1000.
10:04:49 <Taneb> We looked at him, and said "How?"
10:04:58 <Taneb> The person to the right of me had 8 lines of C++
10:05:03 <Taneb> I had 1 line of Haskell
10:05:11 <FireFly> I think I solved that in J
10:10:24 <oerjan> > intercalate", "[case gcd x 15 of 3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";15->"Fizzbuzz";_->show x|x<-[1..]]
10:10:26 <lambdabot> "1, 2, Fizz, 4, Buzz, Fizz, 7, 8, Fizz, Buzz, 11, Fizz, 13, 14, Fizzbuzz, 1...
10:12:40 <oerjan> well i don't know J anyway.
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10:16:54 <FireFly> +/ (* 0: = (3&| * 5&|)) i.1000
10:17:00 <FireFly> there's probably prettier ways to do it though..
10:17:37 <FireFly> Oh, those inner parens aren't necessary I think
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12:37:28 <boily> good taneb-has-identity-troubles morning!
12:56:39 <Koen_> hmpf, I wanted to write the ackermann function in When
12:56:51 <Koen_> well this language is harder to use than I thought
12:57:29 <Koen_> (also there's no reference interpreter that I know of so I'm not even sure it should work the way I believe)
12:58:34 <Koen_> for instance, a rule is triggered everytime a variable in its predicate is assigned
12:59:04 <Koen_> but the variable value may have changed before the predicate is evaluated
13:01:02 <Koen_> and the when operator is the only way to do branching; if you want to branch depending on the value of two variables, then the rule will be triggered twice...
13:07:45 <Koen_> I guess I should add some flag variable that basically says "don't compute anything until I confirm you can proceed"
13:10:18 <boily> queues are fun, when you have undergrad students implement them.
13:11:26 * Koen_ imagines boily queuing up students holding numbers
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13:13:43 <boily> Koen_: sadly, I didn't get to TA that class. would have been fun *evil smirk*
13:16:31 <Koen_> what if electronics stopped working and we had to go back to people computing stuff by hand
13:16:50 <Koen_> so you'd ask people to hold the numbers to execute your fueue program
13:17:09 -!- Taneb has changed nick to ysengrin.
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13:17:31 <boily> that sounds like a very compelling argument to have a live #esoteric meet-up, with group activities, drinks, and computations!
13:19:13 <boily> Taneb: tell me more about yourselves. did you have a good relationship with your mother? how do you feel at the sight of mittens? if a scientist in a labcoat orders you to teach VB to an unsuspecting victim, will you comply?
13:21:12 <Taneb> I had a reasonable relationship of my mother
13:21:34 <Taneb> Mittens remind me of a cute pair I had when I was little that had like an elastic cord from one to the other so I wouldn't lose one
13:21:39 <Taneb> Which is actually a really good idea
13:22:39 <Taneb> If a scientist in a labcoat orders me to teach VB to an unsuspecting victim, I'd probably panic
13:23:37 * boily acquiesces and takes notes “hmm... hmm... please carry on...”
13:24:59 <Taneb> You see, I have a long-held fear of someone pointing out that I'm wrong about something I am supposed to have authority about
13:25:36 <Taneb> So if someone orders me to teach a topic to an unsuspecting victim who may know anything about that topic already, I will be terrified
13:25:47 <Koen_> your Fueue truth-machine was wrong
13:26:20 <Taneb> Koen_, almost every Fueue program I have written is untested
13:26:25 <Koen_> though I guess it's okay to be wrong when oerjan is in the room
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13:29:39 <boily> Koen_: but he's not there. who's the next oerjan-in-command?
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13:31:15 <Koen_> we could appoint Fiora
13:31:43 <Taneb> Fiora, you are now promoted to acting oerjan. Congratulations!
13:32:41 <Koen_> also he usually logbackread/readlogsback/whatever so if you misbehave in his name, HE'LL KNOW
13:33:59 <Fiora> what does that mean O_O
13:36:26 <boily> fungot: what does it mean, to be oerjan?
13:36:26 <fungot> boily: don't you get it working
13:36:37 <boily> fungot: no I didn't, that's why I'm asking.
13:36:37 <fungot> boily: i'm not really " ick" from a syntactic environment
13:37:13 <boily> Fiora: okay, so... I guess you can start by not being “ick”, from a syntactic environment.
13:37:55 <Taneb> fungot, I believe in you, can you tell us the answer?
13:37:55 <fungot> Taneb: fnord... fnord whether that reflects your opinion in that debate well enough? :) i'm learning scheme and now
13:38:09 <Taneb> Fiora, learn scheme and now
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13:39:53 <boily> Fiora: a single-celled parasite, a church, a train-coach, a human protein or English slang.
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15:17:39 <FireFly> fungot: you seem rather "ick" to me...
15:17:39 <fungot> FireFly: last time i had a hard time
15:17:46 <fungot> FireFly: the page doesn't appear here at all, should it end up?! :) http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ gambit-list/ 2005-may/ fnord
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15:31:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
15:31:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17624
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16:20:00 <fizzie> Also an INTERCAL kompiler, of course.
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16:40:42 <Jafet> INTERCAL compiler kludge
16:49:44 <boily> it's freezing in here. as a developer, I can't be expected to have good blood circulation!
16:51:56 <Jafet> I hear coffee can be used as an anticoagulant.
16:52:16 <olsner> boily: but maybe you can be expected to adapt your clothing after temperature?
16:52:48 <olsner> ideally houses should take care of that, but sadly houses are frequently imperfect
16:53:55 <Jafet> Netburst jokes aren't as hot as they used to be.
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16:55:51 <boily> olsner: I'm at work, and forgot my hoodie at home.
16:57:03 <olsner> boily: you should be fired for such a basic lapse in competence
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16:58:00 <boily> olsner: I'd like being fired. that'd raise my body temperature enough that I can still feel my fingertips, and get to code.
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16:59:25 <olsner> hmm, I guess that backfired
16:59:51 <Taneb> boily, huddle for warmth with your fellow programmers
17:00:41 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:00:53 <boily> my fellow programmer went for lunch. the next fellogrammer is too far away (about 2.5 m West)
17:01:21 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `nest' (imported from Text.PrettyPr...
17:01:23 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
17:01:31 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `nest' (imported from Text.PrettyP...
17:01:35 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
17:01:36 <olsner> boily: why didn't you go for lunch?
17:01:54 <boily> olsner: I got done with lunch about half an hour ago.
17:02:15 <boily> (delicious curry chicken and eggplant ratatouille over rice)
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17:02:37 <Taneb> Ooh, I should start thinking about dinner
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17:03:29 <olsner> boily: aha! you *are* the man eating chicken
17:05:36 <boily> something something stupid chicken quote something something...
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17:06:48 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, this has to be a record for shortest-lived succession fort
17:09:39 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, in other news, me and one of my friends may have started a University of York Homestuck society
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17:10:35 <boily> Taneb: did you just use “elliott,” as a punctuation symbol?
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17:12:31 <Taneb> boily, it served two purposes
17:12:35 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, yes, and yes
17:12:47 <Taneb> We've got a meet-up on the 30th at 19:30
17:13:07 <Taneb> We don't even have a name yet
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17:37:26 <Taneb> Figure out a way to transfer it
17:38:02 <Taneb> But I kind of want to eat and watch Agents of Shield
17:38:35 <Phantom___Hoover> you can mute the dialogue of agents of shield, that way you can listen to DF's soundtrack rather than whedon's dialogue
17:38:56 <Taneb> But I watch Agents of Shield in the common room!
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17:39:16 <Taneb> And I'm not moving my desktop a mile and a half just to play video games while I watch TV
17:40:20 <Taneb> I'm slightly off-campus
17:40:40 <Taneb> York's accommodation was over-subscribed
17:41:04 <oerjan> <FireFly> +/ (* 0: = (3&| * 5&|)) i.1000 <-- i sense a lack of fizz and buzz.
17:41:06 <Phantom___Hoover> same thing happened at warwick, apparently they changed the clearing rules for this year
17:41:20 <Taneb> But as it happens the halls are laid out in a really stupid way anyway
17:41:38 <FireFly> oerjan: that gives the sum of numbers in [0,1000) divisible by 3 och 5 (project euler task 1)
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17:43:58 <oerjan> > sum [n|n<-[0..1000],gcd n 15>1]
17:44:02 <boily> isn't och supposed to be “and”, not “or”?
17:44:14 <oerjan> boily: i was trying not to mention that.
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17:45:52 <Phantom___Hoover> @tell Taneb here's your save http://www.filedropper.com/showdownload.php/region3
17:46:26 <oerjan> i had a vague sense that the distinction is slightly different than in english, so that it's not _entirely_ wrong to use och. although not wise in math.
17:46:47 <oerjan> also that maybe it's not clear in english either, outside math.
17:47:24 <oerjan> it's basically about how much of the phrase and/or/och/eller distribute over
17:50:57 <boily> and/or/och/eller/pis/oubedon
17:51:56 <boily> horrible, terrible, vernacular Québec French.
17:52:40 <oerjan> i guess i recognized the "ou" part.
17:53:12 <boily> «oubedon» is «ou bien donc» mashed, mangled, corrupted and otherwise blended with a lawnmower.
17:53:49 <oerjan> well that's no worse than what happened when french got made in the first place.
17:55:09 <oerjan> i recall reading some claim that if you ignore the writing system, french is a highly agglutinative language. although i also recall disagreement with that.
17:55:43 <oerjan> like, "je" is basically a subject prefix.
17:56:15 <Bike> i would have thought somebody would have noticed romance grammar being agglutinative
17:56:46 <oerjan> well it was french only, not the other ones.
17:57:11 <oerjan> i mean italian still frequently _drops_ the equivalent word to je (io)
17:57:27 <oerjan> and i think spanish is the same
17:57:56 <oerjan> but french has mushed its original suffixes so much that it needs to keep the pronouns.
17:58:52 <oerjan> especially when pronounced.
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18:05:43 <oerjan> although e.g. german keeps the pronouns even if it has most of the suffixes left to do without them.
18:07:33 -!- Bike has joined.
18:08:24 <oerjan> <Fiora> what's an "ick"? <-- the C-INTERCAL compiler iirc
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18:09:31 * oerjan keeps wondering if Uguubee111117 is Kjugobe's evil twin.
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18:14:09 <oerjan> <boily> (delicious curry chicken and eggplant ratatouille over rice) <-- wait i thought quebec didn't have proper french cuisine.
18:14:29 <oerjan> i guess that's not very french, mind.
18:14:36 <oerjan> except the ratatouille.
18:19:43 <boily> French is I think the only romance language that retains extensive pronoun usage.
18:20:11 <boily> and I'm a man eating chicken of the World.
18:21:12 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser.
18:21:13 <boily> with written French, you *could* drop pronouns and maybe lose a little bit of information, but it's impossible with spoken French.
18:22:13 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ser./ser, and a Man Eating Chicken./' wisdom/boily
18:22:27 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
18:27:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: The how-to guide to changing the topic | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:28:02 <oerjan> the old topic was starting to smell.
18:28:57 -!- boily has set topic: The how-to guide to changing the topic with perfume | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:29:07 <boily> oerjan: there. much better, eh?
18:29:34 <oerjan> that doesn't _reduce_ smell, boily.
18:30:07 <oerjan> think of the allergic.
18:31:19 -!- boily has set topic: The how-to guide to changing the topic with environmentally friendly hypoallergenic perfume | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:31:51 <boily> and then you're going to point out that perfume is a known carcinogen or something like that, aren't you?
18:32:25 <oerjan> nah the fetal matter in it actually prevents cancer.
18:33:42 <kmc> how about hyperallergenic perfume
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18:58:22 <Phantom___Hoover> 18:31:51: <boily> and then you're going to point out that perfume is a known carcinogen or something like that, aren't you?
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19:18:57 <boily> people always complain about patchouli, but I think I never smelled it.
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19:51:57 <kmc> fizzie: there's now a #rust-osdev (on irc.mozilla.org) and https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/Operating-system-development
19:52:07 <kmc> i'm sure they'd like to chat about Rust on Xen
19:52:30 <boily> have the rust-osdev people met the nodejs-osdev ones?
19:54:00 <kmc> boily: I... didn't know there was such a group
19:54:38 <boily> kmc: I'm just naming it like that. there was that recent article about that Visionary Guy who Never Wrote Oses and would very much like write one with Nodejs.
19:55:43 <Bike> can anyone explain electricity to me. i'm dyin here
19:56:11 <boily> Bike: electron movement.
19:56:24 <kmc> am I an absurd person for writing things like "$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")")/foo"
19:56:34 <kmc> is there A Better Way for a shell script to refer to another file in the same directory as the script?
19:56:41 <boily> Bike: including stuff that makes electrons move, but I can't explain that part because it makes my head hurt.
19:56:55 <Bike> well yeah but like how come voltage is a difference in potential and then in circuits you talk about "voltage at a point".
19:57:29 <boily> voltage at a point is an abuse of language. the reference in that case is implicit, and is the ground.
19:58:18 <Bike> it's a really confusing abuse of language ;_;
19:58:31 <kmc> myname: my working directory might not be the directory where the script lives
19:58:34 <boily> I know. took me ages to understand that one, and I'm a certified engineer.
19:58:49 <Bike> that helps though. probably.
20:00:03 <boily> for example, take a simple circuit with an AA battery and a light. the + pole is said to be “at 1.5 V [relatively to the ground]”.
20:00:28 <boily> because relating potential difference to the ground is the most common case, it gets thrown out because it is generally understood.
20:00:58 <Bike> so that means that moving a a coulomb's worth of electrons from ground to that pole would take 1.5 J, right?
20:01:34 <boily> yup. it's the difference that is measurable, therefore we use volts.
20:01:56 <boily> we don't know the starting point, we don't know the end point, but we know the difference between them is 1.5 J/C.
20:02:42 <boily> and the battery, through chemical work, is able to add that amount of energy per «paquet d'électrons».
20:02:55 <boily> thus, electromotive force.
20:02:58 <Bike> right, right, i've seen everything saying that about difference, and that's all well and good, and then they kind of ignore it.
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20:04:00 <boily> it's even more confusing when, say, you have your nice DC circuit going on, and then you decide to plug it into the mains with a diode bridge.
20:04:15 <Bike> those are words you have arranged into a sentence.
20:04:44 <boily> would you like it to be translated in French? I can garantee it's going to make as much sense.
20:05:11 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge
20:08:24 <boily> if you're running Linux, you should try ktechlab.
20:09:04 <boily> hm. probably not. seems to be pretty much dead, and running on qt3.
20:09:23 <boily> I wonder if there are any easy-to-use electronics simulators out there...
20:09:33 * kmc solves the problem a different way
20:12:42 <oerjan> boily: btw iirc the fact that you cannot determine more than differences in potential gives rise through noether's theorem to the conservation of charge.
20:14:17 <oerjan> basically, adding any constant to all potentials is a symmetry.
20:14:39 <oerjan> well, element of a symmetry group.
20:15:03 <boily> now you're losing me. maths and me makes 3.
20:16:57 <boily> Bike: http://123d.circuits.io/ ← looks interesting.
20:17:04 <Bike> i'm already too demoralized
20:17:47 <oerjan> noether's theorem is a wonderful theorem in physics that says that global symmetries imply conserved physical quantities.
20:18:11 <oerjan> the fact you can only measure _position_ relatively, for example, gives the conservation of momentum.
20:18:24 <oerjan> and in a sense, time gives energy.
20:19:19 <oerjan> and rotation/direction gives angular momentum.
20:19:45 <Bike> i'd be a lot better off if i could understand a tenth of everything noether did
20:20:12 * Bike bookmarks link for some later time when he's not drowning in his own failure
20:20:25 <oerjan> although the time one is sort of circular, i think, because this is all based on a formalism where you base physics on an energy function (the lagrangian or hamiltonian)
20:20:53 <oerjan> Bike: do you include the algebra work in that? :D
20:21:03 <boily> Fiora: ↑ I think you have a nice example here of what it is to be oerjan.
20:21:46 <Bike> oerjan: obviously.
20:21:54 <oerjan> Fiora: note that i cannot actually use these formalisms myself. never had a proper mechanics course.
20:22:03 <Bike> when i think noether i think conservation and something about chains.
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20:22:39 <boily> I should bring my bro to this chännel again. he could strike interesting conversations with oerjan about that physics/mathematics stuff.
20:22:46 <Fiora> so like, how does relative position thingy imply momentum conservation?
20:23:02 <oerjan> because i don't recall noether did much _other_ than her famous theorem that was in physics.
20:23:46 <oerjan> you do an integral iirc.
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20:24:40 <Bike> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=Noether&to=Noggin_%28TV_channel%29
20:25:28 <Bike> i guess some of these are max.
20:25:28 <oerjan> Fiora: oh also in case you don't already, maybe you'd like to know that noether was a woman.
20:25:50 <Fiora> I knew that bit ^^; though I really should learn more about her
20:26:20 <oerjan> i think she's considered the greatest woman mathematician in history so far.
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20:30:03 <oerjan> Bike: i also think the italic ones may be redirects?
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20:33:03 * oerjan had to check euler, that was over a page
20:34:41 <Bike> noether has done less math than euler and i have done less biology than darwin, yes
20:38:22 <oerjan> darwin has a bit more, but i think many of those are just named in honor of him
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21:22:23 <olsner> kmc: when I've tried to write stuff like "$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")")/foo" it has usually fallen on the lack of a useful and portable readlink program that is likely to be installed on the user's system
21:24:50 <olsner> but to answer the actual question: yes, trying to solve a problem "correctly" is weird, normal people just throw together some half-assed broken solution like ./foo or $(dirname $0)
21:24:57 <olsner> or even simply requiring that the script is run from a particular working directory
21:26:23 <kmc> I tend to symlink scripts around
21:26:26 <kmc> sorry you're bored olsner
21:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Fiora> so like, how does relative position thingy imply momentum conservation?
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21:27:32 <kmc> olsner: and yeah, istr that readlink -f doesn't work on OS X
21:27:43 <kmc> why can't everyone use Debian ._.
21:28:10 <Phantom_Hoover> like any symmetry in the laws of physics maps to a conservation law
21:28:27 <Bike> i had to find a 1941 journal volume for something and it says that it cost $3 per volume for a subscription.
21:28:32 <Bike> this is bullshit, modern world
21:29:55 <Bike> Apparently that's around $48 in modern USD, christ.
21:30:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't think you can blame me when i actually started the conversation.
21:31:44 <oerjan> that way lies disaster, Phantom_Hoover
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21:59:57 <Bike> Does anyone know where I could get a set of gears to play with? With stuff like differentials or gearboxes.
22:00:12 <kmc> 3D printer
22:00:58 <Bike> huh, scbearhol has a ceramics printer
22:01:04 <Bike> no bears i think
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22:37:53 <Bike> the library has Serbian mathematical journals from the seventies, and I just happened to pick the one that mentioned Aczel.
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22:45:33 <Bike> i think it's the same one anyway, i don't know why else you'd write about... "saturated theories"
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22:46:59 <kmc> yesterday in my kitchen there was a discussion of Kant and RMS and it was decided that RMS doesn't understand Kant
22:47:12 <Bike> i don't understand kant either.
22:47:18 <kmc> omg me too bike
22:47:24 <kmc> what kind?
22:47:51 <Taneb> Blocked nose, headache, the air tastes wrong
22:48:05 <Taneb> Occasional throaty cough
22:48:19 <Bike> i don't feel so bad about it because hegel seems to have understood kant weirdly. of course i don't understand hegel either.
22:48:55 <Bike> because hegel's writing style is difficult and he called india a faeryland, oerjan.
22:49:17 <Taneb> Also I think I've turned Les Miserables into a comfort film
22:49:55 <oerjan> maybe he couldn't stand kant because of his dialectic
22:50:50 <fizzie> Today's stupid program: HTK.
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22:51:14 <oerjan> is there a film called Les Comfortables that you can use to get misery
22:51:54 <fizzie> "FillTabFromParm: cannot convert MELSPEC to MFCC_D_A_Z_0"
22:52:22 <fizzie> There's no sensible reason why not, except that the code is a steaming pile of a turd.
22:52:32 <oerjan> i can categorically say that it's imperative to understand kant.
22:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> that is the strongest thing i have ever heard fizzie say
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22:56:00 <fizzie> somefunction(float *data) { ... float *fp = data-1; for (i=1;i<=nframes;i++) ... fp[i] ... } I honestly thought the "let's make 1-indexed arrays by pointing pointers one before the start" thing was an urban legend or something.
22:56:10 <drlemon_> was that a scary few minutes without me?
22:56:11 <fizzie> (It's a pervasive idiom in this codebase.)
22:57:16 <oerjan> drlemon_: yeah fizzie was telling horror stories
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22:57:43 <Bike> fizzie: my goodness.
22:58:01 <nooodl> fizzie: iirc that's actually undefined behaviour or something!
23:01:15 <fizzie> Bike: It also uses a "Vector" datatype everywhere for "N floats plus a size"; that's implemented by a typedef float *Vector; and allocating (N+1)*sizeof(float) bytes, then doing *(int *)vector = N; to store the size in the memory that should be occupied by the first float, and then using vector[1] .. vector[N] for the actual storage.
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23:04:51 <fizzie> Bike: There's also a SVector type that allocates 2*sizeof(Ptr)+(N+1)*sizeof(float) bytes, puts two pointers in the beginning and then the contents of a Vector after, and returns a pointer there in the middle so that you can still use it as svector[1]..svector[N].
23:05:22 <fizzie> But also ((Ptr*)svector)[-1] and [-2] to get at those pointers.
23:05:30 <fizzie> All this makes for very clean code.
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23:08:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/AbIj is another end result.
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23:21:16 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fLib yes that is good thing.
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23:40:57 <kmc> wait but it's not MATLAB anymore
23:41:23 <Bike> the matlab is coming from inside the c
23:43:16 <kmc> that's where most things come from
23:43:17 <kmc> ultimately
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23:50:18 <pikhq> nooodl: It's not UB if you actually allocate space there! :P
23:50:52 <pikhq> However, that (int*) cast actually *does* invoke UB.
23:51:34 <Sgeo> I think dynamic typing in and of itself doesn't bother me as much as the idiotic API design decisions that dynamic typing often acts as an enabler for
23:51:36 <pikhq> "N floats plus a size" should be a typedef struct {size_t size; float array[]} *Vector;
23:51:51 <Bike> sure, if you're a wuss
23:51:56 <Sgeo> "This argument can be returned directly from the function if this other thing isn't found. Unless the argument is a function, in which case it will be called"
23:52:00 <Sgeo> THat sort of thing
23:52:11 <Bike> yeah, that sucks.
23:52:18 * Sgeo glares at Racket
23:52:33 <Bike> probably your mindset is what led to the "bondage and discipline typing" joke.
23:52:37 <Sgeo> http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/hashtables.html?q=hash-ref#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._hash-ref%29%29
23:52:52 <Bike> Anyway. Does anyone know of a mathematician named Holden. Probably early 20th century, worked in analysis.
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23:53:11 <Sgeo> Although at least in that case it's possible to write code that safely does what you want without needing to check types yourself
23:53:13 <Bike> Sgeo: lol nice.
23:53:24 * Sgeo glares at Clojure's trampoline
23:54:02 <Bike> uncited references suck.
23:54:05 <Sgeo> http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/trampoline
23:54:19 <Sgeo> "Note that if you want to return a fn as a
23:54:19 <Sgeo> final value, you must wrap it in some data structure and unpack it
23:54:19 <Sgeo> after trampoline returns."
23:54:32 <Bike> Oh. it's at typo for Holder. Fuckin ggreat
23:55:12 <fizzie> I think it might be crashing due to MAX_PATH.
23:55:15 <Bike> And I can't correct the author because they have been dead for fifty years.
23:55:58 <fizzie> See, I have this file list, it's at /akulabra/projects/T40511/htkallas/reverb-challenge/sys/asr/lib_revmask_a19_b0p43_g1p4_bcmi_N1000_G5_T5_norm0_MFCC_0_D_A_Z_CEPLIFTER_1/flists/reverbWSJcam0/revmask_a19_b0p43_g1p4_bcmi_N1000_G5_T5_norm0_MFCC_0_D_A_Z_CEPLIFTER_1.lst
23:56:08 <fizzie> And some might consider that as a long path.
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23:57:56 <fizzie> It doesn't crash when I run it single-tasked; the parallelization introduces a couple more hoops to jump through, could be that pushes it over the edge.
23:57:56 <Bike> "The Poincaré-Bendixson theorem for the Klein bottle" must be the most useful article in history
00:03:33 <fizzie> The parallelization machinery involves setting the output path to something with 322 characters.
00:06:34 <Bike> exactly 322 eh
00:07:13 <fizzie> static char scriptBuf[256]; /* buffer for current script arg */
00:07:23 <fizzie> scriptBuf[i++] = ch; /* #### ge: should check for overflow of scriptBuf */
00:07:43 <Bike> Oh hey, a classic buffer overflow?
00:07:46 <Bike> imo do some privilege escalatin
00:07:53 <fizzie> From myself to myself?
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00:08:27 <Bike> To whoever wrote this code so you can make their computer cuss at them when it boots up, obviously
00:13:15 <fizzie> I don't know if "ge:" indicates a person.
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02:28:18 <zzo38> Now in Dungeons&Dragons game my familiar grants +3 bonus to my Swim skill if the distance between them does not exceed one mile.
02:28:24 <lambdabot> kmc said 2d 4h 54m 53s ago: gcc 4.7.2 doesn't warn me about "if ((x == 4) && (y = 0))" being always false, even with -Wall -Wextra -O3
02:28:58 <zzo38> kmc: O, too bad. Well, I suppose that's OK; such a warning isn't really a requirement.
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02:34:01 <Bike> https://twitter.com/ibogost/status/391390862061891584/photo/1/large who's ready for this
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02:45:46 <Sgeo> kmc: since I'm too lazy to read a blog post right now: How does Qoppa/Kernel handle mapping a non-applicative operative onto a list?
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02:47:00 <Bike> pretty sure kernel signals an error.
02:48:09 <Sgeo> I'm thinking that, however Racket calls Qoppa functions, it could probably just behave similarly
02:48:32 <Sgeo> Since there are similar issues involved with trying to get operatives to work in higher-order situations
02:48:51 <Bike> ok, well, kernel says it takes an applicative, which is mostly the same.
02:50:02 <Sgeo> How would Kernel's map be able to tell the difference between applicative operatives and non-applicative operatives?
02:50:13 <Bike> you mean combiners?
02:50:15 <Sgeo> err, ... meant Qoppa, but you didn't say Qoppa, so n/m
02:50:59 <Bike> The clear solution here is to avoid the unwrap. Just have map do (eval (cons combiner args) ...). it's manly.
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04:23:33 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of familiar?
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04:29:30 <zzo38> Some computers have media playback controls on the keyboard, but I want them on the pedals, I think it would be more useful that way, isn't it?
04:29:52 <kmc> Sgeo: for qoppa the answer is "poorly"
04:29:56 <kmc> in kernel it's a type error, i think
04:29:57 <Bike> 'the' pedals, huh
04:30:05 <kmc> because applicatives and operatives are distinguished
04:30:22 <Sgeo> kmc: well, at least I kind of understand a reason for applicatives not being just operatives in Kernel now
04:30:31 <Sgeo> Oh, you just said it
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04:33:27 <kmc> maybe it's time for me to learn about wavelet trees for real
04:33:44 <Bike> yeah, one of shutt's big concerns was dealing with the (lambda (x) (x y)) problem.
04:34:20 <Sgeo> I never actually read the paper... and it was a while since I read the spec
04:35:01 <Bike> mm, if anyone's around tomorrow remind me to seriously work on my implementation.
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04:37:31 <kmc> you'll have to find another obscure greek letter
04:37:47 <Bike> right now i mostly name it with curses and pink floyd names
04:38:34 <zzo38> Or use other alphabets
04:39:00 <Bike> it's either that or.... an esolang (!!!!)
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04:54:13 <Sgeo> I still need to try to read SRFI-72
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05:43:43 <zzo38> What does "SRFI-72" mean?
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05:46:16 <Bike> scheme request for implementation #72
05:48:38 <zzo38> My brother told me to make up a trainer card for the Pokemon card game, with the effect "The trash can is empty." and then see if some people make up different interpretation for it. I did make up some interpretation for it, like I did for "Goblins cannot reach Nirvana." in Magic: the Gathering (on a global enchantment card named "Nirvana"). Do you?
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05:51:18 <zzo38> Do you interpret these effects?
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06:14:57 <HackEgo> danddreclist 43: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:16:09 <zzo38> Do you like this? This is when we summon the familiar, figure out the ring, store the books and curtain in a spare room, and a few other things.
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06:24:34 <kmc> fizzie: wow just saw the code for 1-indexed arrays in C
06:25:33 <kmc> can I blame MATLAB for that
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06:27:22 <zzo38> What kind of code for 1-indexed arrays in C did you see?
06:29:42 <kmc> <fizzie> somefunction(float *data) { ... float *fp = data-1; for (i=1;i<=nframes;i++) ... fp[i] ... } I honestly thought the "let's make 1-indexed arrays by pointing pointers one before the start" thing was an urban legend or something.
06:30:46 <zzo38> O no I have done it too actually, but rarely.
06:31:11 <kmc> why did you do it?
06:31:22 <zzo38> I do not remember.
06:31:30 <kmc> zzo38: isn't it undefined behavior?
06:31:45 <zzo38> On some computers it is, but on most computers it works.
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06:31:57 <kmc> on all computers it's undefined behavior :<
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06:35:38 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think about the fact that in C, char can be either signed or unsigned
06:36:22 <zzo38> kmc: I think it can be dealt with; some functions always treat it as unsigned anyways.
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06:39:24 <zzo38> (Since some functions always treat it as unsigned, it can be used to sort big-endian numbers, for example.)
06:40:46 <kmc> int counts[256]; void count(char *p) { for (; *p; p++) counts[*p]++; }
06:40:48 <kmc> best vuln ever
06:41:19 <zzo38> I think GCC might warn if you do that; I think I saw such a warning once.
06:41:28 <kmc> yeah, it warns about char as an array index
06:41:42 <kmc> zzo38: it's fun to write an exploit for such a vuln
06:42:33 <kmc> this was the occasion on which I had to write shellcode where 2 out of every 4 bytes are 00 00
06:42:42 <kmc> or code to jump to shellcode anyway
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06:44:49 <Jafet> I still can't figure out how to write a complete main() in ascii
06:45:03 <Jafet> Both ret and syscall are non-printable
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06:48:59 <zzo38> When writing codes that can take untrusted input into higher privilege codes I am always being much more careful than that.
06:49:54 <Jafet> `run echo $'const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";' > hello.c && cat hello.c
06:49:58 <HackEgo> const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_XATASARAQAPHello, world! \ ";
06:50:14 <Jafet> `run gcc hello.c -o hello && ./hello
06:50:16 <HackEgo> hello.c:1:21: warning: missing terminating " character \ hello.c:1: error: missing terminating " character \ hello.c:2:1: warning: missing terminating " character \ hello.c:2: error: missing terminating " character \ hello.c:2: error: expected expression at end of input
06:50:50 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is one such program; it has no buffer overflows because it has no buffers; everything is done one at a time. It doesn't allocate memory dynamically either. Other things are also done to improve the security; IQE isn't Turing complete, and the upload service performs some checks on it too.
06:50:55 <Jafet> `run gcc hello.c -o hello && ./hello
06:52:45 <zzo38> And then there is also the operating system security to avoid a few things in case something else goes wrong.
06:53:15 <kmc> well on AMD64 Linux there are SYSCALL instructions in known locations, specifically within the legacy vsyscall page
06:53:26 <kmc> the addresses are not ASCII but you can probably compute them
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06:53:47 <kmc> the other solution would be self-modifying code but rwx pages are hard to come by these days
06:55:10 <Jafet> `run readelf -e hello | fgrep -A1 .plt
06:55:12 <zzo38> I have sometimes used a few self-modifying codes.
06:55:13 <HackEgo> [11] .rela.plt RELA 0000000000400358 00000358 \ 0000000000000018 0000000000000018 A 6 13 8 \ -- \ [13] .plt PROGBITS 0000000000400388 00000388 \ 0000000000000020 0000000000000010 AX 0 0 4 \ -- \ [24] .got.plt PROGBITS 0000000000600860
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06:56:18 <zzo38> Does Linux have anything like DOS .COM programs?
06:57:09 <kmc> the simplest executable format that Linux supports natively is a.out
06:57:59 <Jafet> Is the format really named a.out
06:58:39 <kmc> you could probably make a binfmt_misc rule that runs any file marked executable as raw machine code
06:58:42 <kmc> that would be fun
06:59:20 <Jafet> Run any file marked executable as shell script
07:00:23 <zzo38> Well, DOS .COM involves the operating system setting up some things automatically and then it just executes the program loaded in the allocated segment. Very simple and reasonable.
07:01:02 <zzo38> I have once written a file called PALETTE.COM which takes a drive letter on the command-line parameter and an octal number, and uses that to program the colors of the screen.
07:01:35 <zzo38> (Parsing drive letters and file specifications is one thing DOS will automatically do when loading .COM programs.)
07:03:30 <zzo38> I have once looked at a BASIC compiler into .COM; it has some unusual features, one is that it completely ignores parentheses (and treats them as spaces), which can cause many problems.
07:06:17 <kmc> that's quite an unusual feature indeed
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07:06:54 <kmc> one might even go so far as to call it a bug
07:06:54 <zzo38> I think it also ignored commas in the same way.
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07:08:45 <zzo38> This includes parentheses and commas for function calls, and since some function calls can take varying number of arguments, it can cause ambiguities.
07:11:45 <zzo38> In a mathematical description I wrote yesterday, I used a type I called "enum", which means a set of unique values deriving Eq (and only Eq). And then the value of that type is used as a type, too (for example: F : enum; V : enum: C : F -> set V; ...). Is there something similar in any version of Haskell?
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07:14:36 <zzo38> Actually I was writing a mathematical description of a puzzle game. A problem is defined as (F : enum, V : enum, C : F -> set V, N_F : F -> nat, N_V : V -> nat), and a solution to a problem is (S : V -> nat) where forall x in V. S(X) <= N_V(x), and forall f in F. N_F(f) = sum of S(x) for x in C(f).
07:14:56 <zzo38> Does this system have a name already?
07:16:32 <zzo38> Do you know anything about this? I defined it as a generalization of a different game from some book.
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07:19:28 <zzo38> Are you able to figure this out?
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07:19:41 <fizzie> kmc: I think you can indeed blame MATLAB, I'm sure that's where the developers got the habit of 1-based indexing.
07:20:30 <zzo38> fizzie: It isn't only MATLAB that uses 1-based indexing, though. BASIC can use whatever numbers you want for indexing.
07:21:22 <fizzie> And I think I saw a binfmt_misc for ".com-like" programs.
07:22:36 <kmc> zzo38: so can perl
07:23:31 <zzo38> kmc: OK. (I am not so good at Perl)
07:23:41 <fizzie> That's all true, but there's a statistical likelihood of HTK developers being MATLAB users. (Could be wrong.)
07:24:05 <fizzie> Perl's array index base modifier is common for all arrays, though.
07:24:35 <fizzie> BASIC (and maybe Pascal?) can specify dimensions per-array, IIRC.
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07:25:03 <zzo38> fizzie: That isn't so good. BASIC defines it individually per array (although you can set a default using the OPTION BASE command), which is a better way, I think. Yes I do think Pascal can do it too.
07:25:05 <fizzie> (If not Pascal, then there's at least some others with the feature.)
07:25:37 <zzo38> I have books of two prettyprinted Pascal programs, so I know some things about it.
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07:27:44 <zzo38> Can you figure out what game I was generalizing, or if this generalized form has another name already, or if I made any mistakes in this mathematical description of it, or other things you can figure of it, or etc?
07:29:05 <zzo38> Is there SoC for DVD video player? I think I saw a TV set that seems to use such a thing (the SoC hypothesis would explain the way some of its functions work).
07:29:51 <kmc> tv on a chip
07:29:58 <kmc> i saw such a thing at argo electronics once, I think
07:30:10 <kmc> http://makezine.com/2008/02/25/argo-electronics-surplus/
07:30:29 <zzo38> I think in this case it was only the DVD function that uses a separate SoC from the rest of the TV, though.
07:30:53 <kmc> yeah what i saw was an analog tv on a chip from the 80s
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07:34:23 <fizzie> Oh, another HTK thing; this is what compiling it looks like: http://sprunge.us/VjUG (just an extract)
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07:36:51 <fizzie> negs = (int)up_hmm->hook+1; up_hmm->hook = (void *)negs;
07:36:58 <fizzie> It's full of "let's put an int in a pointer", too.
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07:41:14 <fizzie> Here's one of the "set but not used", and while it may be correct, it sure looks like a 'cb'-to-'cn' typo: http://sprunge.us/cdPR
07:41:30 <fizzie> I'm frankly surprised this code ever gets any correct results.
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07:59:54 <zzo38> In this book, the games "Number Place" and "Skyscrapers" both involve Latin squares. Perhaps they could be combined! (The rules for the combined game are obvious, but I don't know if there are any such puzzles.)
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08:23:43 <Jafet> For some reason this system leaves the stack executable by default, yet there seems to be no way to jump to it in ascii.
08:24:06 <Jafet> What kind of system has an executable stack but not executable plt, anyway.
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08:50:30 <kmc> HFBLat.c: In function ‘SetCorrectnessAsError’:
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08:58:25 <fizzie> "221 2.7.0 Error: I can break rules, too. Goodbye." -- Postfix, if you forget the DATA command and go directly to "From: whoever@whatever" when doing some SMTP testing.
08:59:02 <fizzie> I assume it's some sort of a spambot detection scheme. (If you say something else wrong, it's usually "502 5.5.2 Error: command not recognized" instead.)
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09:12:28 <FreeFull> fizzie: It also could be a joke
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09:40:07 <fizzie> Huh, "Mr. 4679" (the port-knocker) is back at it *again*.
09:40:37 <fizzie> I don't think I can be bothered to send a third abuse@ email because it seems to do nothing except possibly a temporary disconnect.
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10:56:05 <Taneb> Do petrol stations sell milk
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10:59:59 <Taneb> It's closer than the supermarket
11:00:13 <olsner> only petrol stations that sell milk sell milk
11:00:25 <Taneb> olsner, I'm pretty sure that statement is tautologous
11:00:46 <Taneb> Although it does suggest eg supermarkets and dairies do not sell milk
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11:09:52 <Taneb> I guess the easiest way to find out if they sell milk is to walk over and see
11:12:13 <olsner> maybe you can call them and ask?
11:12:31 <Taneb> I don't have any credit on my phone
11:12:50 <Taneb> And it's almost literally next door
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11:19:05 <Koen_> Taneb: I know many petrol stations sell coffee, htht
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11:21:58 <Taneb> Koen_, I don't drink coffee
11:22:02 <Taneb> I drink nothing but milk
11:22:12 <Taneb> And some other things
11:22:18 <Taneb> But probably more milk than average
11:22:58 <Koen_> everytime people realize how much milk I drink, they ask me if I'm dutch
11:23:23 <Taneb> Do the dutch drink a lot of milk?
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12:26:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, talk me through the military setup in the fort?
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12:27:52 <Phantom_Hoover> it should run itself (well, once you stitch the soldiers back together again)
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12:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> they're set to train at all times; the only thing you should need to do once they recover is forge the rest of their armour
12:28:54 <Taneb> Is there a hospital?
12:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> they'll put it on of their own accord; and no, there is not
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13:19:05 <Taneb> Basic healthcare is going
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13:38:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, elves have arrived
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13:45:09 <Taneb> We lost a hammerdwarf in an ambush :(
13:48:49 <Taneb> Another ambush is happening that seems to be deadlier
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14:06:02 <Phantom_Hoover> (there was at least one other dorf with weapons skills, more may have migrated)
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17:25:40 <Taneb> @tell Phantom_Hoover siege killed two soldiers :(
17:25:54 <Taneb> @ask Phantom_Hoover This is why trading is bad!
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18:00:04 <oerjan> <Bike> Anyway. Does anyone know of a mathematician named Holden. Probably early 20th century, worked in analysis. <-- technically yes, although probably not the one you want :P
18:00:59 <oerjan> (he work{s,ed} at the university here, and also was my previous next door neighbor.)
18:03:12 * oerjan swats Bike for being hideously idle -----###
18:03:58 <olsner> oh what a hideous way to idle
18:04:04 <oerjan> hm he has a page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helge_Holden
18:12:15 <oerjan> @tell Bike See your backscroll and/or the logs.
18:14:01 <oerjan> hm are there clients that display nicks differently if they've been idle for a long time?
18:14:22 <oerjan> (not that i'd switch to one, but hypothetically)
18:14:43 <oerjan> and of course automatic reconnections ruin that anyway.
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18:15:10 <zzo38> You can use WHOIS command at least
18:16:04 <oerjan> zzo38: i use that, but i always keep forgetting to do so until _after_ i've spoken to people.
18:16:28 <oerjan> and also, as i said, it doesn't help with automatic reconnections, which reset the timer.
18:17:31 <zzo38> I usually just type a message anyways regardless of they are idle or even not connected at all; the channel is logged.
18:18:00 <oerjan> yes, but i'm too paranoid to trust people to check if they've been spoken to. :(
18:19:13 <oerjan> people have all kinds of different habits.
18:19:40 <zzo38> I don't really trust everyone either, but I do it anyways just in case, and then later when they might be on if they didn't respond already I can reask the question.
18:20:06 <zzo38> It also means that other people can answer if they have any answer, even if not the people being asked.
18:40:27 <oerjan> <Taneb> Do petrol stations sell milk <-- i'm pretty sure it happens.
18:41:18 <oerjan> <Taneb> Koen_, I don't drink coffee
18:41:34 <oerjan> well you could ask for coffee with milk, without the coffee.
18:41:52 <oerjan> i'm sure that should work.
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18:46:14 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, they did sell milk
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18:51:20 <oerjan> it's probably more expensive than the supermarket, though.
18:51:52 <Taneb> But I was a) really hungry and b) ill
18:51:59 <Taneb> So I couldn't be bothered to walk to the supermarket
18:52:21 <oerjan> at least you weren't a zombie. i assume.
18:52:36 <Taneb> I cannot recall being a zombie
18:54:05 <oerjan> i think that's usually a permanent thing.
18:57:00 <zzo38> What puzzle games are based on Latin squares other than the ones I konw?
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19:00:40 <oerjan> zzo38: other than the ones you mentioned earlier, there's sudoku of course.
19:01:15 <zzo38> Well, the Number Place game I mentioned is a generalization of sudoku.
19:01:39 <oerjan> i don't recall that game.
19:03:19 <oerjan> simon tatham's puzzles also has Keen, otherwise known as KenKen.
19:03:40 <zzo38> Ah, yes, I have read about KenKen too I think.
19:04:23 <zzo38> The rules of "Number Place": You are given a grid where each cell belongs to a zone. Some cells also have symbols filled in. Fill in the rest of the cells to make up a Latin square such that each zone also contains exactly one of each symbol.
19:05:33 <oerjan> it has Singles, otherwise known as Hitori, which isn't quite a latin square but does require you to blot out enough parts of it that the rest is consistent with one.
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19:07:35 <oerjan> towers is probably what you call skyscrapers.
19:08:31 <zzo38> Rules of "Skyscrapers": You are given a grid, and each row or column heading may have a number at neither, one, or both ends. Make a Latin square (note: the set of symbols in this game must be ordered) such that the number in the heading is equal to the length of the list made by starting at that end, going through the row/column and deleting any symbol that is less than a previous symbol.
19:08:36 <oerjan> and Unequal, otherwise known as Futoshiki also requires a latin square.
19:09:09 <zzo38> You say towers is probably what I call skyscrapers, now that I wrote the rules, you can know if that is it or not?
19:10:43 <oerjan> yes, that's equivalent afaict. Towers sometimes has a few cells filled in in addition to the numbers outside.
19:12:07 <oerjan> that's the ones i could find in that collection that look latin square related.
19:12:31 <zzo38> Other games in this book I have do not involve Latin squares, but there are many games in there.
19:13:16 <oerjan> i recall seeing at least futoshiki in a newspaper here. and of course plenty of sudokus.
19:14:35 <oerjan> and there's killer sudoku.
19:14:58 <oerjan> (which is also in the collection as an option to ordinary sudoku ("solo"))
19:15:06 <zzo38> In "Dominoes", you are given a grid filled in with symbols and must split it into dominoes (areas of two cells which are orthogonally adjacent), such that no domino contains an identical (unordered) pair of symbols to any other domino. Another rule of this is that every diagram has a unique solution (it can help to solve them, as I have figured out).
19:15:48 <oerjan> that's also in tatham's collection as "dominosa".
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19:16:52 <oerjan> i always feel like i'm cheating when i use the fact that the solution is unique.
19:17:49 <zzo38> Why do you? That is actually the only game in this book that mentions that in the rules, so I do use it in only this game.
19:18:22 <zzo38> (This book does not discuss strategies for solving any of these puzzles; only the rules are specified.)
19:18:25 <Sgeo> zzo38: do you understand hygienic macros?
19:18:47 <oerjan> i think some of tatham's puzzles have an option to allow you to request non-unique solution puzzles.
19:19:01 * Sgeo is hoping for someone to ask for help when trying to understand the difference between SRFI-72 and Racket's model
19:19:23 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't understand SRFI-72 or Racket, though.
19:19:57 <zzo38> The mathematical description I provided yesterday night (in my timezone) is for a generalization of one of the games in this book I have.
19:21:00 <zzo38> I intended to make the generalization of the game in this book called "Mineswweeper"; did you find any mistake in the one I did?
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20:17:25 <Bike> oerjan: interesting that "early 20th century" apparently encompasses a guy born in '56 :p
20:19:31 <zzo38> This is a problem I wrote on a paper to pose to the NPCs of a D&D game, to test their quality of thinking in sideways and other ways: The king of a far away city is allergic to beholders and wants to destroy all of them in this city. However, only half of them have done anything wrong. Identify the problem.
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20:20:51 <Bike> `rwelcome grupo5-29
20:20:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rwelcome: not found
20:20:55 <Bike> `rwlcome grupo5-29
20:20:56 <zzo38> (Hint: "Identify the problem" is a key phrase.)
20:20:58 <HackEgo> grupo5-29: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:23:03 <oerjan> Bike: i ignored that part of your question
20:23:41 <HackEgo> grupo5-29: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
20:24:35 <oerjan> Bike: `rwelcome got renamed. twice.
20:25:52 <oerjan> zzo38: well one of them was me trying to think of a punny name (that's `ozcome). the other was probably someone not finding `rwelcome. um those might be related, come to think of it :P
20:34:03 <kmc> `run bienvenido grupo5-29 | rainwords
20:34:07 <HackEgo> grupo5-29: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki:
20:34:39 <zzo38> You could create links (does the hg filesystem support that?)
20:35:16 <oerjan> unlike rainbow, rainwords doesn't check whether the color codes fit in the line.
20:36:05 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*come: No such file or directory
20:36:49 <HackEgo> bin/ozcome \ bin/relcome \ bin/rwlcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/wercome
20:37:59 <fizzie> Apparently control characters don't count.
20:38:16 <oerjan> blame the new zealanders.
20:38:57 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:39:52 <oerjan> it's just the extra stuff in the spanish pushing it over.
20:40:02 <fizzie> That's still some redundancy w.r.t. ozcome/rwlcome, right?
20:40:34 <oerjan> `run mv bin/rw{,e}lcome
20:41:08 <oerjan> at least use the old name
20:41:36 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
20:43:12 <oerjan> a logical naming scheme.
20:45:03 <FireFly> wercome is my new favourite welcome
20:51:19 <oerjan> i think that might be a bad idea. not sure whether it gets worse or better with actual japanese.
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20:54:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: youkoso: not found
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21:27:35 <zzo38> I think in the "Black-C" that I have written about, you might make a hook for program starting like: typedef struct { inline void "create"(void) { ... } } Start; static const Start ex_start;
21:28:10 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of way?
21:31:49 <zzo38> The "create" is an operator overloader. There are others, although the set of possible operator overloaders is different from C++.
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21:47:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've finished my year
21:47:48 <oerjan> that was fast, i thought you just entered university
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21:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway i see you continue to ruin my GLORIOUS MILITARY
21:50:50 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, some of them are still alive
21:50:51 <oerjan> should have gone further back, 1994 was the year the world really started going downhill again.
21:51:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, one of them has to walk with a crutch but he got injured on your watch
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21:53:00 <Taneb> Also I set up a crossbow squad but they don't seem to train
21:57:06 <oerjan> they only work at cross purposes.
22:06:22 <zzo38> I want to play Pokemon Card.
22:10:39 <NihilistDandy> I may. Last I remembered, the dwarf named after me was some kind of legendary stonecarver
22:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> thus far neither me nor Taneb have named the dorfs though
22:12:29 <Taneb> Oh yeah, we should totally do that
22:13:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you should give the name NihilistDandy to a new stone carver whose creativity is crippled by his obsessive comparison of himself to his famous forefather.
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22:18:05 <Taneb> ...that neither seems particularly nihilist nor dandy
22:19:48 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/338e01ac78e86fc9c14ff11fc2f30a2b/tumblr_msfpeiZuL71sydj82o10_r1_1280.jpg bye
22:21:50 <oerjan> i think i saw something about a virus demanding ransom for disk contents. and that no one had managed to get them back without paying. (i assume backups were excepted. also i only read the headline or so.)
22:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, ah, so you encrypt stuff and then have people pay for the key?
22:23:37 <Bike> yeah, it's called cryptovirology.
22:23:47 <lexande> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryptoLocker
22:23:49 <Bike> which is a dumb name, i mean, but
22:25:10 <elliott> haha, you can pay through bitcoin
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23:12:39 <variable> were scams and never actually encrypted your stuff
23:12:54 <variable> the new ones actually do encrypt it but may not give you your key
23:13:56 <oerjan> variable: um why do you think it's very old, i saw it a few weeks ago.
23:14:52 <oerjan> also, the wikipedia one clearly _does_ decrypt again on payment.
23:15:20 <oerjan> it only makes sense from a business standpoint.
23:15:46 <variable> oerjan: not that specific virus: the idea of ransomware
23:16:07 <variable> oerjan: the funniest one I saw did give you a key to decrypt
23:16:14 <variable> but implemented the crypto wrong so the key was unusable
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23:51:22 <quintopia> question for the englishters and canucks: what is the name for the quantity measuring the number of kilometers a vehicle can travel on a liter of gas
23:52:09 <ais523> quintopia: in England we use miles for distances on the roads
23:52:40 <ais523> so we'd use "mileage" for the distance in miles, and don't have a term for the distance in kilometers (although the general term is "range", which you see/hear used occasionally no matter which units it's in)
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23:57:37 <zzo38> Here in Canada we use kilometres but I don't know what terms are used; I think "km/L" may sometimes be used.
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23:59:25 <fizzie> In Finland: liters per a hundred kilometers, for some reason.
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00:04:07 <fizzie> (The unit for measuring fuel consumption, that is; probably no specific term for distance-for-any-quantity-of-gas, because the conventional unit is the other way around.)
00:05:38 <quintopia> so you call L/hkm 'fuel consumption'?
00:06:04 <ais523> "fuel economy" would be the most used term for that sort of ratio in the UK
00:08:35 <fizzie> Well, as a literal translation of what I think a Finn would say, "fuel consumption" sounds perhaps closest.
00:08:49 <fizzie> ("Polttoaineen kulutus.")
00:12:26 <fizzie> Also the unit gets typed as "l/100 km", I don't think you're supposed to combine SI prefixes.
00:14:01 <ais523> there's no SI prefix for myriad? :(
00:15:46 <fizzie> Apparently there kinda-sorta was in "pre-SI".
00:16:18 <fizzie> "The prefix myria-, ten thousand,[6][7] denoting a factor of 10000, originated from the Greek μύριοι (mýrioi), that is, myriad, for ten thousand, and the prefixes demi- and double-, denoting a factor of 1⁄2 and 2, respectively,[8] were parts of the original metric system adopted by France in 1795. These were not retained when the SI prefixes were internationally adopted by the 11th CGPM conference in 1960 --"
00:16:28 <fizzie> It would be the wrong unit anyway.
00:16:59 <fizzie> "10 mym" does not seem like much of an improvement over "100 km".
00:17:47 <fizzie> "In Sweden and Norway, the myriametre is still very common in everyday use (although not recognized or used officially). In these countries this unit is called mil."
00:19:07 <fizzie> It would be one lakhmeter, of course.
00:19:08 <oerjan> that's the common norwegian unit for the presently discussed concept
00:19:38 <fizzie> Which apparently is abbreviated to L, so l/Lm.
00:23:48 <fizzie> "Poronkusema", lit. approx. "reindeer-pissing", is an old unit of distance from Lapland.
00:24:20 <fizzie> It's the distance you can ride a reindeer before giving it a bathroom break.
00:25:30 <kmc> wow i didn't know lappish raindeer were trained to use bathrooms
00:26:34 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_obsolete_units_of_measurement#Miscellaneous
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00:31:42 <fizzie> Reindeer fuel economy is probably measured as jäkälää/poronkusema. (Lichens/)
00:32:41 <kmc> google has determined that the languages I most often translate from are Russian, Finnish, and Hungarian
00:32:44 <kmc> i'm proud of myself
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00:33:24 <kmc> the first translation it gives for "poronkusema" is "Poronkusema" (capitalization sic) but the alternative is "piss of a reindeer"
00:34:07 <kmc> `frink 1 l/km -> jäkälää/poronkusema
00:34:21 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "jäkälää". \ Warning: undefined symbol "poronkusema". \ Warning: undefined symbol "jäkälää". \ Warning: undefined symbol "poronkusema". \ Warning: undefined symbol "jäkälää". \ Warning: undefined symbol "poronkusema". \ Warning: undefined symbol "jäkälää". \ Warning: undefined symbol "poronkusema". \ Unconv
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03:01:32 <zzo38> How should I store rosetrees in SQL so that pattern matching is possible?
03:05:49 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1984 "Dead Hand"
03:06:26 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand_(nuclear_war)
03:07:33 <Sgeo> Yes, the SCP refers to that (as being an anomalous item other than what it's commonly believed to be)
03:19:57 <augur> do you guys know that malbolge was mentioned in a tv show?
03:20:28 <zzo38> augur: I think I have heard of that before.
03:20:33 <augur> thats fantastic :D
03:23:59 <augur> (`&%:0]!-}|z2Vzwv-,POqponl$Hjih%eB@@>}=<M:0wv^WsU2T|nm<unknown stuff here>,tcl(I&%$#"^CBV?Tx<uVtT^Rpo3N1f.Jh++Fdba=C<bn maybe?? then something>?!
03:24:25 <augur> google has no records for the first bit up to the unknown stuff
03:24:32 <augur> if its genuine malbolge, it was original
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03:24:37 <augur> or at least not on the internet
03:24:46 <augur> someone on this TV show is a nerd
03:26:35 <augur> apparently there's a "translation" of the code in malbolge for attacking the random number generator in this episode
03:26:47 <augur> E(pi) = Q(pi)/Q(E)+Q(pi)
03:28:17 <zzo38> I don't know about such program.
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03:39:04 <zzo38> If you are playing Pokemon card, and you have a card that says "The trash can is empty", then what are you going to do with it? My brother suggest some people might make up different interpretation of such an effect.
03:42:53 <kmc> zzo38 is your brother on irc
03:43:46 <kmc> maybe one day???
03:56:45 <zzo38> I made up this Pokemon card: Basic Pokemon E: { @ } HP: 3 W: - R: - RC: 0 /// POWER: Cannot retreat if confused or poisoned, but can retreat if sleep or paralyze, even if poisoned.
03:56:50 <kmc> i'm only a C paralegal but go ahead
03:57:35 <constant> kmc: what is the difference between "extern int a = 10;" and "int a = 10;" (the initalizer is important)
03:57:38 <zzo38> /// { @ }: Discard { @ } attached to this card in order to use this attack. Toss coin, if heads opponent sleeps. If this card is knocked out before your next turn, opponent's active card is knocked out and return all energy cards attached to this card into your hand. /// { *** } [1]
03:57:57 <kmc> "When the going gets tough, you don't want a criminal laywer, you want a CRIMINAL lawyer, know what I'm saying?"
03:58:12 <kmc> constant: I've never seen extern with an initializer >_>
03:59:20 <zzo38> I also made up the stage 1 card, which has HP 6, and has: POWER: Can use attack of basic form unless confused. /// { @@@ } [2]: Toss coin, if heads you may move 1 damage from one opponent's card to another.
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04:10:23 <Bike> is external with an initializer even legal
04:11:14 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know! Would it even mean anything?
04:12:02 <pikhq> This is one of the C edge cases I'm quite unfamiliar with.
04:12:13 <Bike> constant: are you seeing this in actual code?
04:12:24 <pikhq> I can only *assume* it's the same as "extern int a;int a = 10;"? But I cannot be certain.
04:12:32 <pikhq> Well. That is, if it's legal..
04:12:32 <constant> Bike: zzo38: only legal is specific cases
04:12:39 <constant> that is, if you don't have a defintion
04:12:42 <pikhq> Which it mightn't be.
04:12:52 <constant> and if you try to use link it with another file which also defines it you get linker error
04:13:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Perhaps it ought to do that, but, I don't know if it will.
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04:18:24 <zzo38> But is it standard to do that or is it implementation-specific feature?
04:29:09 <constant> so it appears to be standards allowed if not standards required
04:29:18 <constant> both also *warn* in both cases
04:29:25 * constant would consider it a standards bug
04:49:01 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Consensus
04:49:37 <Jafet> “both governments agree that there is only one sovereign state encompassing both mainland China and Taiwan”
04:50:00 <Bike> are you new to the wondefulness that is china taiwan
04:50:37 <Bike> i like the island that was shelled so hard that residents are still making stuff out of bomb metal
04:50:47 <Fiora> hee hee, cross-strait relations are great
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05:08:08 <Bike> «I hold the conviction that there is a comparable phenomenon [to the influence of the Poincaré conjecture] today in the notion of a “polynomial time algorithm”. Algorithms are becoming worthy of analysis in their own right, not merely as a means to solve other problems. Thus I am suggesting that as the study of the set of solutions of an equation (e.g. a manifold) played such an important role in 20th century mathematics, the ...
05:08:14 <Bike> ... study of finding the solutions (e.g. an algorithm) may play an equally important role in the next century.» bro it's 1998.
05:10:17 <zzo38> I have not read about extern with initializers in GCC documentation, and I have not mentioned it in the Black-C specification.
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05:59:01 <zzo38> How much do you know of ESC/P format for printing?
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06:22:51 <Gracenotes> hm. I find it amusing that it seems that quoting from the 80s hit "You Spin Me Around" is, in and of itself, considered a tad obscene.
06:23:57 <Bike> is this a meatspin joke
06:25:18 <Gracenotes> so, compared to quoting various other 80s hits, you get slightly more nervous laughter
06:26:03 <Bike> oh. i didn't think it was actually realted
06:28:36 <Gracenotes> well, it's obscene by association. being quoted in the right (or wrong) context can change what a song signifies culturally.
06:33:13 <zzo38> "By association" should not be allowed to count in many cases.
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06:36:51 <Bike> it's funny watching a video from the 1950s about a "computer" made of gears.
06:38:49 <Bike> there's such a thing as a "snail cam". do you like this?
06:42:09 <kmc> Bike.zzo38.moed++
06:43:57 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a way to make a Haskell type which acts like the type I have called "enum" in mathematical descriptions of some things?
06:43:58 <Bike> i had no idea you could make a cam to compute, like, tangent.
06:44:28 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know either!
06:45:01 <Bike> or reciprocal. or apparently anything smooth. it looks weird
06:47:46 <Bike> "the barrel contains an infinite number of cams"
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07:11:30 <Sgeo> I think I actually like racket/match better than Haskell pattern-matching
07:13:02 <coppro> radix sort is everything that is terrible about computer science
07:13:50 <Bike> coppro: how come
07:14:43 <Sgeo> Beyond being able to make your own patterns, it has or and and
07:15:11 <coppro> Sgeo: because it's theoretically linear but in all the worst ways
07:15:20 <coppro> it works only on a restricted input dataset
07:15:45 <coppro> BUT in 99% of real-world applications, these restrictions in fact exist
07:15:51 <Sgeo> Wait, why are you replying to me? Was your radix sort statement in relation to racket/match?
07:15:51 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Oh, I think Rust's pattern matching has OR but doesn't have AND
07:15:53 <coppro> BUT it's still slower than other algorithms
07:16:57 <Sgeo> Seriously, racket/match is starting to be the only place, besides macros, where I like Racket's approach more than Haskell's
07:17:09 <Sgeo> Kind of depressing
07:19:03 <Sgeo> Oh, and first-class continuations
07:19:43 <Bike> doesn't haskell have a cont monad for ya
07:20:51 <FreeFull> There is a Cont monad, also known as the "mother of all monads"
07:21:16 <Sgeo> I'm not especially inclined to call what Cont does "first-class continuations", though I need more thought
07:21:27 <FreeFull> Yeah, what Racket does is probably nicer
07:22:00 <Sgeo> Maybe I don't know how to express that Haskell's Cont monad doesn't allow for a monad syntax that first-class continuations in Racket do (by virtue of being mother of all monads)
07:22:59 <Sgeo> Remember my "mamb" operator?
07:23:26 <Jafet> Did coppro have a bad trip from LSD
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07:24:35 <Sgeo> (define (mamb ma) (shift k (return (>>= ma k))))
07:45:03 <Sgeo> Racket debugger doesn't work well with stuff run from the REPL
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08:15:05 <Sgeo> http://pasterack.org/pastes/9079
08:17:09 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have it output
08:18:25 <Sgeo> uh http://pasterack.org/pastes/8324
08:18:30 <Sgeo> I swear it works on my computer
08:19:06 <Sgeo> Ok, that version doesn't
08:19:59 <Sgeo> http://pasterack.org/pastes/1950
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08:33:25 <Taneb> Sgeo, because lisps are scary and I'm ill
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09:05:51 <oklofok> i hear in scrubs that reading lisp is pretty easy
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09:43:57 <fizzie> Hmm. Why does my Icedove context menu for selected text suggest "Search Bing for: ..."?
09:47:20 <fizzie> (It also stubbornly starts Iceweasel instead of Chromium for links.)
09:47:32 <fizzie> I guess this is all documented somewhere.
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11:24:48 <oerjan> @tell augur <augur> nonsense nodoubt <-- it's actually a hello world program, see wikipedia's Malbolge page (where it was probably snatched from, although wp changed to another one later).
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11:26:10 <oerjan> @tell augur iirc it had some transcription errors. see also the talk page.
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11:52:08 <quintopia> why would they even use malbolge on a tv show? what weirdos. ben must be so proud
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12:02:12 <olsner> "The KMT of the ROC says that the consensus exists, while the DPP of ROC and the President of ROC in 1992, Lee Teng-hui, deny the existence of the 1992 consensus." ... pretty good consensus
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12:19:42 <Taneb> Once more I find myself wondering where the closest place is that sells pokemon
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12:23:28 <Taneb> I may go for a wander
12:23:45 <Taneb> And over the River
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14:25:33 <mroman> Does anyone of you guys know C?
14:28:41 <mroman> I'd like to know if malloc(sizeof(char)*80)[70] is well defined behaviour
14:28:47 <mroman> actually replace malloc with calloc
14:28:59 <mroman> assuming malloc does memset to zero
14:29:19 <mroman> the point is, that char might have an alignment
14:29:34 <mroman> in which case there is not enough space in 80*sizeof(char) for 70 chars
14:29:43 <mroman> i.e if char requires a 4-byte alignment
14:29:53 <mroman> then sizeof(char)*80 would only give you space for 20 chars
14:30:00 <Koen_> there's no alignment
14:30:25 <mroman> C requires that char has NO alignment?
14:30:39 <Koen_> well, at least is char arrays
14:31:31 <Fiora> char is required to be 1-byte, isn't it?
14:32:07 <Fiora> like I thought sizeof(char) has to be 1
14:32:21 <mroman> but does sizeof(char) INCLUDE alignment?
14:32:31 <Koen_> Fiora: yeah but what about struct s { char a; int b; char c };
14:32:33 <Fiora> Um... I... I don't think char could require more than 1 alignment @_@
14:32:53 <Fiora> then code that did, like malloc(70) couldn't store 70 chars
14:33:50 <Fiora> you could ask ##c maybe or something...? it doesn't feel right though
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14:39:59 <fizzie> mroman: I'm pretty sure you can't have an alignment larger than sizeof.
14:40:13 <fizzie> Because array elements are spaced at sizeof byte intervals, and array elements need to be aligned.
14:40:52 <mroman> int32_t could have a 16 byte alignment requirement
14:41:56 <fizzie> int32_t a[2] must have both a[0] and a[1] aligned suitably for int32_t, and (char *)&a[1] == (char *)&a[0] + sizeof (int32_t).
14:42:51 <mroman> is the second part a C requirement?
14:43:13 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it is. And I'm entirely sure it is for the case of a char array.
14:43:37 <fizzie> As in, char a[2] must have both a[0] and a[1] aligned suitably for a char, and &a[1] == &a[0] + 1.
14:45:01 <Fiora> I wonder what compilers do with long double for that...? like I think the type is 10 bytes but it's often aligned to 16? maybe the sizeof just gets set to 16...
14:45:12 <mroman> &a[1] == &a[0] + sizeof(char)?
14:45:19 <fizzie> Fiora: The sizeof is either 12 or 16 for GCC.
14:45:25 <fizzie> mroman: sizeof(char) == 1.
14:45:54 <mroman> but does the equation &[1] ==&a[0] + 1 hold for char?
14:46:15 <mroman> suitably aligned doesn't really mean, that you can do + 1 and get the next element?
14:46:15 <Fiora> fizzie: that makes sense...
14:46:25 <fizzie> mroman: &[1] does not mean anything, but other than that.
14:46:29 <mroman> if sizeof were to include alignment requirements
14:46:41 <mroman> then it is well defined
14:47:16 <mroman> if my int32_t is 4 bytes long, but has an 8 byte alignment requirement
14:47:22 <mroman> is sizeof(int32_t) == 8?
14:47:57 <fizzie> I don't think it's allowed to.
14:48:14 <fizzie> intN_t are not allowed to have padding bytes.
14:48:17 <fizzie> Also "An array type descirbes a *contiguously allocated* (emphasis mine) nonempty set of objects --" so I'm pretty sure (char *)&a[1] == (char *)&a[0] + sizeof a[0] for any type for a.
14:48:49 <Fiora> I think the fixed-length types require 8-bit chars? so like, int32_t has to be size 4
14:49:01 <Fiora> and um if I remember right the signed ones have to be 2s-complement
14:49:20 <fizzie> Fiora: I think CHAR_BIT == 16 is legal for an implementation with an int32_t.
14:49:31 <fizzie> You'd just have a sizeof (int32_t) == 2 there.
14:50:07 <fizzie> But CHAR_BIT needs to be either 8, 16 or 32 for int32_t to exist, because it cannot have any padding, and all sizes are in multiples of CHAR_BIT.
14:50:25 <fizzie> And you can't define int8_t if CHAR_BIT > 8, of course.
14:50:36 <Fiora> that makes sense...
14:50:52 <Fiora> I just remember someone telling me that sizeof(int32_t) was redundant or something <_<;
14:50:56 <mroman> but does contigously disallow padding bytes?
14:51:00 <Fiora> but maybe they were wrong
14:51:26 <fizzie> mroman: Perhaps that's arguable. There might be something more applicable.
14:52:09 <fizzie> mroman: Do note that absolutely everything allocates n * sizeof (type) bytes of memory for an n-element array of type, which wouldn't work if sizeof didn't include any padding.
14:58:17 <mroman> sizeof array / sizeof array[0] must yield the number of elements of array
14:58:32 <mroman> sizeof array[0] == sizeof char == 1
14:58:36 <mroman> therefore, sizeof array = 10
14:59:06 <mroman> the contigously allocation already requires, that there's no padding
14:59:09 <fizzie> I don't see why "sizeof array / sizeof array[0] must yield the number of elements of array" is any more or less obvious than "n * sizeof (type) is the size of an array", unless you have a paragraph to cite.
15:01:18 <mroman> Another use of the sizeof operator is to compute the number of elements in an array:
15:01:24 <mroman> sizeof array / sizeof array[0]
15:01:46 <fizzie> mroman: Non-normative example.
15:02:04 <mroman> the it's an example in the standard
15:02:14 <fizzie> It's still non-normative.
15:02:15 <fizzie> "Directives, this foreword, the introduction, notes, footnotes, and examples
15:02:15 <fizzie> are also for information only.
15:02:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/EIIg -- slightly related.
15:04:18 <fizzie> I was wondering how that'd work for an array of direct int32_t _Alignas(16) type, but the _Alignas in an array declaration applies to the array type, not the element type, and you can't have an _Alignas specifier in a typedef.
15:04:56 <fizzie> (A single int32_t _Alignas(16) a; seems to have a sizeof of 4, but that's perhaps not a problem.)
15:11:34 <mroman> is _Alignas standard C?
15:14:09 <fizzie> "sizeof (t) must indeed be a multiple of A(t) [alignment of t]", has the committee clarified in its answer for DR #074 in 93: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_074.html
15:15:38 <fizzie> And the question refers to the contiguous alignment requirement and correct alignment of array elements, so presumably that is also the official correct way of deriving the requirement.
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18:53:33 <augur> i didnt even think to check wikipedia
18:53:41 <augur> i just went straight to the esolang wiki
19:03:55 <zzo38> I realized something about the familiar which was almost certainly not intentional. I get +3 to Swim, and are going on a boat.
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19:09:07 <zzo38> I don't know how fast it is yet.
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19:10:08 <zzo38> We didn't actually do that part of the game yet, but we entered the boat. (And on the same day we had to go on a real boat after te game is played.)
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19:20:05 <zzo38> Maybe this bonus is useful if the boat falls down or if they tell us to get out of the boat. My character also has a sailor skill so that might also be useful too in case the captain falls off or whatever (the familiar therefore also has the same skill but probably cannot use it very well).
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20:15:03 * pikhq notes that Pokemon X/Y be awesome
20:15:35 <coppro> I realized after BW that the replay value has basically gone from pokemon games for me
20:15:43 <pikhq> Last game I played in the series was Emerald, so.
20:16:49 <zzo38> Will it improve by modifying the game with cheat codes, ROM hacks, and/or self-imposed restrictions?
20:20:37 <pikhq> Also, yeah, Pokemon is not exactly a series that you want to play each and every time it comes out.
20:21:20 <pikhq> The replay value is such that it merits a long enough span of time between replays that the game seems fresh.
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20:21:41 <coppro> zzo38: self-imposed restrictions, yes, others, no
20:23:04 <Fiora> pikhq: I was so badly sucked into Y I like, beat it in two days
20:23:05 <pikhq> Which fits, given that Satoshi Tajiri is literally autistic...
20:24:19 <Fiora> I'm tempted to keep playing just to get some nicer clothes but rune factory 4 and etrian odyssey said no
20:25:07 <coppro> I *might* consider playing the inevitable Z since they tend to really up the ante on those games
20:25:18 <coppro> I have far too much other stuff to eat my time
20:25:19 <Fiora> I'm not sure they'll do a Z, given they didn't do a pokemon grey
20:25:40 <pikhq> they did. Black/White 2.
20:26:15 <Fiora> that was a sequel though! not like platinum or something
20:29:28 <Taneb> I got X this afternoon
20:29:53 <pikhq> Also, god there's a lot of games I'll probably be playing on here.
20:30:04 <zzo38> I have "Akagi DS".
20:30:08 <pikhq> Last portable console I owned was a GBA.
20:31:16 <coppro> Fiora: platinum was sort of a sequel
20:31:33 <zzo38> The Akagi DS game is a mahjong game which include Washizu mahjong too.
20:31:47 <lexande> pikhq: last i owned was a GBC, last game i played on it was pokemon silver, get off my lawn etc
20:32:16 <Fiora> pikhq: yeah, like not long after launch a friend convinced me to get a 3DS and I've been playing DS/3DS games ever since, I think I'veplayed dozens now
20:32:19 <Fiora> there's so many good ones
20:33:13 <nooodl> pokemon is just so slow... god
20:33:13 <nooodl> i've played through two pokemon games but i don't think i could've done it without emulator speed-up. seriously
20:33:50 <zzo38> I agree it is slow. There are some options to speed it up a bit, such as turning off animations and set battle mode to "SET", although it is still slow.
20:34:17 <pikhq> Thankfully, they've done a lot of stuff to speed up the travelling bits.
20:34:21 <nooodl> Fiora: i keep telling myself it's not worth it to buy *yet another* ds but there's so many good games for 3ds it's really tough
20:34:26 <pikhq> (by god, running shoes)
20:34:51 <pikhq> lexande: I bought a GBC for Blue, FWIW.
20:35:49 <nooodl> yeah i've bought 2 ds's :(
20:36:17 <myname> i find the 2ds hilarious
20:37:02 <zzo38> I do have a "SuperCard DS" device but now it is broken, and Akagi DS is the only DS game card I have.
20:37:04 <pikhq> Yeah. The 3DSXL even seems awkward.
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20:40:09 <fizzie> I have a Game Boy somewhere, but I haven't seen it in a while. Wonder where it ended up.
20:40:17 <fizzie> Also something like a ten (10!) games for it, maybe.
20:41:25 <fizzie> Though I couldn't quite enumerate them. Tetris, SML1, SML2, some tennis thing, maybe some golf thing, a Qix clone (or maybe it's just Qix) and that one game with the balloons.
20:43:25 <myname> that game with the baloons was awesome
20:43:39 <fizzie> It's "Balloon Kid", apparently.
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05:07:03 <Bike> THis seems this-channel-y. http://imgur.com/a/3XdPg
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06:17:52 <fizzie> fungot: Do you halt on all inputs?
06:17:52 <fungot> fizzie: i just can't pick one. lifes too short to waste on puzzling out that crap. nootropics are better.
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06:18:21 <fungot> shachaf: to get a useful answer, now, about what you want
06:18:22 <Bike> good attitude, fungot
06:18:22 <fungot> Bike: _lo__ina__inihili_ili_i_ation ' !hangman lcase-guess' to guess a letter! lambdabot :d. ( which means mzscheme)
06:19:56 <fungot> shachaf: that was an awesome game. 10k is plenty of ways to cheat.
06:20:05 <fizzie> fungot: I don't remember writing a hangman game in there.
06:20:05 <fungot> fizzie: ( sounds worse than it was it first.
06:20:21 <shachaf> Bike: did you read _The Mysterious Island_ y/n
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08:43:26 <fizzie> Bike: "Subject: MATLAB Digest | Academic Edition - October 2013" " Adding Fun to First-Year Computer Programming Classes with MATLAB, --"
08:43:44 <fizzie> (That probably needs no comment.)
08:48:54 <NihilistDandy> Maybe they'll change the MATLAB syntax so that'll be a pun
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09:12:50 <fizzie> Fun fact: one of the built-in MATLAB demos is called "funfuns": http://sprunge.us/VgjS
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09:14:29 <fizzie> (The demo is built around the function HUMPS. The function has two humps.)
09:15:33 <fizzie> There's also the FUNTOOL for working with functions.
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10:19:28 <ais523> I just sent myself (and other recipients) an email, to and from my University email account, using University wi-fi, and entirely using University servers for every hop; it took 15 minutes to arrive
10:19:33 <ais523> I wonder how it's getting so delayed
10:19:57 <fizzie> Greylisting somewhere. (Well, likely not. But it's possible.)
10:20:15 <fizzie> You could check the timestamps in the Received: headers to see if a particular hop took a long time.
10:21:33 <fizzie> (Other hypotheticals: long queue in some mandatory transparent virus scan; spam filtering systems configured to wait for DNS blacklist replies and pointed at something that's offline + long timeouts.)
10:21:52 <ais523> fizzie: the last one, by the look of it; all the received headers are within a minute of the initial send
10:22:06 <ais523> perhaps I'm being stupid and that's just how long it took my client to do a send/receive operatoin
10:23:25 <fizzie> IMAP is supposed to be clever (cf. IMAP IDLE) about that kind of stuff. But sometimes it isn't.
10:25:17 <ais523> also, amusing thing I noticed in the headers; my hostname on this netbook/laptop/thing is "desert", and something else along the line is called "camel", meaning that many of the lines end "camel@desert"
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10:33:12 <fizzie> That is considerably more amusing than the identifiers in headers here, which tend to be things like smtp-out-01, mx06, EXHUB03.
10:34:47 <fizzie> (Okay, there's a mail server at the ICS department called "marconi", which is at least thematically appropriate.)
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10:54:59 <oerjan> <fungot> Bike: _lo__ina__inihili_ili_i_ation ' !hangman lcase-guess' to guess a letter! lambdabot :d. ( which means mzscheme) <-- i'll try f, thanks
10:54:59 <fungot> oerjan: but if a is not bound, not a variable
10:55:21 <oerjan> fungot: a is already there!
10:55:21 <fungot> oerjan: not that i know what ensuring hygiene is. try to lurk for a couple shorthand features that make it hard to write
10:58:26 <oerjan> <fizzie> (The demo is built around the function HUMPS. The function has two humps.) <-- a bactrian function.
11:02:23 <fizzie> Fun MATLAB fact: variables are case-sensitive, but functions are case-insensitive.
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11:02:48 <fizzie> (Presumably because function names derive from file names, and case-insensitive file systems are a thing.)
11:03:37 <oerjan> are you sure it's not just case-insensitive on windows.
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11:05:08 <Taneb> Oh hey, I have calculus homework
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11:07:39 <fizzie> oerjan: I think you are right! Which makes their ubiquitous convention of uppercasing function names in all documentation quite bizarre.
11:07:56 <fizzie> (Because the actual names are lowercase on case-sensitive systems.)
11:08:23 <oerjan> darn you realize a was joking
11:09:37 <fizzie> I thought you were, but then it was true, so I rethought that perhaps you knew something.
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11:12:53 <fizzie> Apparently since R14 it is case-sensitive on Windows too, but there the behaviour on case mismatch is to print out a warning and then call the function.
11:13:05 <fizzie> (While on Linux it prints out an error and suggests the correct case.)
11:14:12 <fizzie> Oh, it's error on Windows too, starting from R2011b.
11:15:01 <fizzie> Well then, my fun MATLAB fact was in fact (pun not intended) a not-so-fun MATLAB lie, when talking about modern versions.
11:15:20 <oerjan> is the documentation still bizarre, though
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11:16:10 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/aJXS
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14:20:46 <HackEgo> diva: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:33:44 <HackEgo> olist (925): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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17:24:17 <Taneb> I've got two weeks to, with two other people, create and present a 15-minute talk on Fourier series
17:24:46 <shachaf> imo talk about adjunctions instead
17:25:09 <Taneb> I have a feeling that that would be on the other hand a very bad idea
17:25:22 <Bike> what about fourier series?
17:25:36 <shachaf> oh, Bike's suggestion is good. talk about fourier series.
17:25:48 <Bike> i mean, what about fourier series are you to talk about.
17:26:09 <Taneb> Bike, an introduction to them, a bit about Fourier himself, and something else about some identity?
17:26:54 <Bike> have you read fourier's original paper? that would probably help for introduction ("dude invented them for the heat equation") and for fourier himself if there's an intro to it ("something something napoleon??")
17:28:37 <Bike> oh right yeah he was in charge of egypt for a while
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17:30:02 <boily> what is an adjunction?
17:30:28 <Bike> some category theory thing that's not very useful for making jpegs
17:31:24 <Bike> @wn adjunction
17:31:25 <lambdabot> *** "adjunction" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
17:31:26 <lambdabot> n 1: an act of joining or adjoining things [syn: {junction},
17:32:07 <boily> oh hm. my bot is once again dead...
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17:32:21 <metasepia> adjoint definition: the transpose of a matrix in which each element is replaced by its cofactor.
17:32:30 <Bike> ~duck adjoint functor
17:32:30 <metasepia> In mathematics, specifically category theory, adjunction is a possible relationship between two functors.
17:32:44 <fungot> boily: other than that cfunge is pretty finished, other parts aren't changing or are changing slowly... yesterday. can it get knocked over on their sides ( the structures, not in
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17:34:43 <Bike> ~duck adjoint functors arise everywhere
17:36:10 <fungot> boily: which repl are you using plt?
17:36:16 <fungot> boily: i get it. a closure whose template field is not correctly set. i suspect some people or programs might also like cooking with beer
17:36:55 <boily> fungot: I thought chicken's closures where one of its selling points. and yes, I do enjoy cooking with beer. preferably with the beer inside me.
17:36:55 <fungot> boily: razor-x is sorry for raping you. erections can last for weeks or months. :p it was like a crash course. i'll use elisp macros to generate statements for characters in most scheme systems, so you
17:37:06 <boily> fungot: IIIIEEEEEURGH!
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17:44:36 <fungot> FireFly: masters degree is supposed to be what they do
17:45:28 <boily> fungot: you are vile, uncouth, and you use elisp macros!
17:45:28 <fungot> boily: destroyer of worlds". exactly. your life will be so fast that you can speak with me i'll just keep on reading, then.
17:46:16 <fungot> FireFly: that's a funny thought. i may tweak it a bit later. it's not physically possible for x&4 to have more fun learn more on the language
17:46:23 <boily> fungot: no. no trans-humanistic upload to the cloud for me, thank you very much. and if you just could *not* destroy the world, I'll be very happy. probably other people too, but yeah. no destruction for you.
17:46:23 <fungot> boily: it's slow, but that's definitely a male. not by far
17:47:01 <boily> fungot: I'm male, but I ain't slow. I'm a Canadian!
17:47:02 <fungot> boily: error while getting interface flags: no such file
17:47:14 <FireFly> boily: are you sure that you exist?
17:47:15 <boily> dammit. Canada unexistence strikes again!
17:47:21 <boily> FireFly: not anymore.
17:47:26 <shachaf> boil: adjunctions are p. good
17:47:38 <FireFly> fungot: are they really, though?
17:47:38 <fungot> FireFly: the 32 one probably looks correct because i practically wrote it. maybe they were busy". and he denies having reading h2g2.
17:47:47 <fizzie> "not very useful for making jpegs" is the best description.
17:48:26 <boily> FireFly: according to the Fizzian Bot, there are 32 adjunctions total. probably related to the 36 stratagems or something.
17:48:34 <fizzie> fungot: Are you very useful for making jpegs?
17:48:34 <fungot> fizzie: standards change over time.
17:49:01 <shachaf> fungot: are you useful for making jpeg2000s
17:49:01 <fungot> shachaf: no, the cond in body not be colored as well, if you use direct slot access is not efficent) is friendly to lisp startups. it
17:49:04 <FireFly> When was the last JPEG standard released anyway?
17:49:45 <boily> I wonder what will Unicode 7.0 include...
17:50:10 <fizzie> (Or JPEG XR or other such things.)
17:50:35 <shachaf> U+3E8A0 COMBINING ADJOINT TO THE LEFT
17:51:33 <fizzie> Apparently the last JPEG standard was released in 2013.
17:51:45 <fizzie> http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=59634
17:51:58 <Bike> shachaf: have you considered writing "Irreplaceable" to be about adjunctions
17:51:59 <fizzie> (Part of the "real" JPEG series.)
17:54:22 <boily> “[The Tertiary Ideographic Plane] is reserved for Oracle Bone script, Bronze Script, Small Seal Script, additional CJK unified ideographs, and other historic ideographic scripts.” no mention if that'll appear in 7.0.
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17:55:53 <fizzie> Fun fact: most of the Oracle database system is written in Oracle Bone script.
17:56:17 <Bike> they really call han "ideographic" huh
17:56:47 <boily> fizzie: if only it'd be so... the world would be a muche better place imho.
17:57:14 <Bike> i thought using "ideogram" for han was considered bad now
17:57:21 <Bike> since han characters are kind of... not ideas
17:58:12 <boily> (there are some very nice chars in the SIP, e.g. U+20BA7 TELEVISION SET)
17:58:22 <Bike> good character
17:58:38 * boily can't count. “1... 2... 5...”
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18:02:19 <Koen_> boily: skipping 4 is okay, people would think you're enumerating prime numbers or fibonacci or whatever. but THREE? you can't miss THREE!!
18:03:20 <boily> Koen_: 3 is complicated.
18:03:46 <Koen_> I know, right? 3 is a crowd.
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18:09:22 <HackEgo> Rosette: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:10:32 <oerjan> fancy color scheme today
18:11:10 <oerjan> Koen_: you can skip 3 if you're listing powers of 2.
18:13:13 * boily lobs the Holy Fungot of Helsinki over at... uhm... who would fit the killer rabbit the most?
18:14:16 <oerjan> yes, some people actually care about the difference.
18:14:25 <oerjan> i dunno if any are here, though.
18:16:50 <boily> well, the lazy me lumps Vantaa with Helsinki, but you're right to say Espoo's different.
18:16:59 <boily> the metro doesn't get there yet, for example.
18:23:31 <fizzie> They're digging as fast as they can, though.
18:23:37 <fizzie> (Maybe not quite as fast as all that.)
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18:24:40 <fizzie> Also, the metro does not get to Vantaa either, and it's not even going to.
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18:25:53 <fizzie> (Well, I guess they've got a couple of plans, but nothing as concrete as the Espoo extension.)
18:26:25 <Koen_> yeah digging a metro out of concrete is pretty hard
18:28:12 <zzo38> Are knowing a better way to traverse and pattern match rose trees which are stored in a SQL database?
18:28:34 <zzo38> (In a way that can be accessed from within SQL programs)
18:33:12 <lexande> fizzie, Koen_: why bother digging a metro when the suburban railway lines already go that way?
18:33:16 <boily> hey, maybe the Helsinki Metro will get all the way to Montréal!
18:34:00 <Koen_> lexande: eh, I don't know. I've never understood these nordic people
18:34:58 <fizzie> lexande: You mean, to Vantaa?
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18:36:00 <fizzie> I think the "East Metro" was supposed to go near the coast to Sipoo, the trains don't go there.
18:36:08 <fizzie> Though it does cross a bit of Vantaa there too.
18:37:17 <fizzie> And (just my gut feeling; I'm sure Serious People have spent more Serious Thoughts on this) I don't think there's yet quite enough people living in there to make it worthwhile, but maybe in the future.
18:38:47 <zzo38> Do you know which bits of MSETBL (in the Z-machine) are corresponding to which menus?
18:39:46 <fizzie> Right. Well, no, I don't think anyone's planning to extend the subway to Tikkurila or anything, just generally eastwards.
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18:41:17 <fizzie> Though I remember there were originally plans to have the subway branch northwards, there was even a subway station dug in Munkkivuori that was never used for anything.
18:43:06 <fizzie> There were pictures of the "cave" somewhere, but I can't find any good ones now.
18:44:39 <fizzie> (This is ##UrbanTransportation I'm talking on, right?)
18:44:58 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: channel name invented, I don't know what the real one is.)
18:45:24 <kmc> it's #cslounge-trains
18:48:46 <fizzie> "itym ##stinkyfeet" no wait that would be mean
18:49:19 <oerjan> i don't think they're particularly stinky, although that may change when i finally change to my winter shoes
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19:01:11 <boily> kmc: what is cslounge, and why does cslounge-trains exist?
19:01:15 <oerjan> why do these apples have sticky skin, it's appalling
19:01:26 <boily> oerjan, swat yourself.
19:03:18 <oerjan> also it's a bit sour, despite being nominally red. as was yesterday's apple. not very appealing.
19:04:21 <oerjan> maybe they could, like, classify by taste instead of color.
19:04:21 <fizzie> I only eat the sourest green apples they sell in the local shop.
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19:06:03 <fizzie> I also like redcurrants a lot, so possibly it's my fault.
19:06:57 <oerjan> not really a fan here.
19:07:19 <oerjan> despite that we had them in our garden when i grew up
19:08:14 <oerjan> but yeah, i like very little sour food.
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19:08:21 <olsner> how are redcurrants different from blackcurrants except the color?
19:08:51 <kmc> boily: #cslounge is a channel for the extended social group of some people who studied CS at CMU in a particular period of time
19:09:03 -!- Bike has joined.
19:09:11 <oerjan> olsner: completely different taste. blackcurrants are _not_ sour when ripe.
19:09:13 <kmc> they're not that friendly to outsiders
19:09:16 <kmc> but #cslounge-trains is
19:09:26 <kmc> and lexande is the king of that channel or something
19:09:33 <oerjan> (we had those in the garden too.)
19:09:48 <lexande> #cslounge-trains exists because me, yeah
19:10:22 <fizzie> I don't like blackcurrants very much. Because they're not so sour.
19:10:27 <oerjan> of course in norwegian the names are not even related. (redcurrant = no:rips, blackcurrant = no:solbær)
19:10:46 <olsner> they're red and black "wineberries" in swedish
19:10:51 <fizzie> oerjan: "Punaviinimarja", "mustaherukka". (Though "punaherukka" *is* used as an alternative.)
19:10:54 <oerjan> i see they're actually the same genus, though.
19:10:59 <fizzie> olsner: "viinimarja" is "wineberry".
19:11:35 <boily> oh. fr:groseille and fr:cassis.
19:14:05 <oerjan> huh gooseberry is _also_ the same genus, that's the third kind of berry bush we had
19:14:06 <boily> elliott: there's a berry named in your honour → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccinium_elliottii
19:14:20 <fizzie> oerjan: It's kind of the "standard set" of berry bushes here too.
19:16:06 <fizzie> Often combined with some rhubarb.
19:16:10 <olsner> I don't trust gooseberries
19:16:36 <oerjan> fizzie: we had rhubarb. also raspberry and strawberries.
19:17:17 <fizzie> oerjan: How surprising, we (well, not *here* in the city, but the place of my grandparents' in the country) had all of those too.
19:17:18 <boily> blueberries are the best!
19:17:30 <oerjan> other things varied by year, i guess.
19:17:33 <fizzie> Non-wild blueberries are kind of "meh", I believe.
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19:18:10 <Bike> unhip blueberries
19:18:17 <fizzie> I don't think people actually cultivate-grow blueberries very much, but there's certainly a lot of it collected from the wild.
19:18:33 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudberry is the best berry I know
19:19:03 <oerjan> i think maybe there were blueberries in the forest nearby until it grew completely dense.
19:19:30 <olsner> bananas are pretty good berries as well
19:19:47 <fizzie> There's even an ongoing scandal about people from Thailand coming to Finland to pick wild berries, because there's a sort of a generic permission to do that on anyone's land.
19:19:59 <kmc> that's a long way to go for some berries
19:20:00 <oerjan> well technically it started out mostly as swamp, which was gradually drained when/after the house was built.
19:20:18 <Bike> if someone was willing to come from thailand to pick blackberries in my yard i think i'd let them
19:20:19 <fizzie> kmc: Allegations of human trafficking this and that, there's some sort of a thing.
19:20:26 <Bike> maybe we could share cobbler
19:22:21 <fizzie> Also there's some cloudberries around the swamp/lake at the summer cottage, though it's not a *terribly* good place for them.
19:22:48 <olsner> scamming foreign berrypickers is a reoccuring scandal in sweden as well
19:24:13 <fizzie> http://www.icenews.is/2013/09/22/thai-berry-pickers-refuse-to-board-flight-out-of-finland/
19:24:14 <oerjan> i've picked cloudberries, although we usually had to go a bit out of the way for those.
19:26:40 <fizzie> olsner: It seems your this year's scandal is pretty much identical to ours.
19:27:09 <olsner> I'm not up to date with this year's scandal afaik, but I assume it's the same as every year
19:28:42 <fizzie> oerjan: "The Norwegian government, in cooperation with Finnish, Swedish and Scottish counterparts, has vigorously pursued the aim of enabling commercial production of various wild berries (Norway imports 200 - 300 tonnes of cloudberries per year from Finland)."
19:29:59 <fizzie> We've put that thing (the berry, not some sort of symbolical reference to Norway importinh them) in our coin too. (Didn't remember that.)
19:30:31 <olsner> hmm, commercial production of wild berries?
19:30:34 <boily> Scotland is a Nordic Country???
19:31:04 <fizzie> boily: Did it say that somewhere?
19:31:18 <fizzie> I mean, "counterpart", I think every place has a government.
19:32:15 <boily> beuh. that's boring.
19:32:30 <fizzie> There was something about Scotland being something, though.
19:32:35 <fizzie> (Very specific, I know.)
19:35:42 * boily is reading Wikipédia's “Scandinavian Scotland” article
19:35:51 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
19:37:33 <Bike> I have a book of icelandic sagas, one of them is about a guy who among other things sails down to england to help king whatshisname crush northumberland
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19:37:41 <Bike> by "a guy" i mean "a viking"
19:38:43 <Taneb> Bike, did you know that during the crushing of Northumberland, the church in Hexham was burnt down?
19:38:57 <oerjan> `run WeLcOmE AnotherTest | rainbow
19:38:57 <Bike> I did actually
19:39:00 <HackEgo> AnOtHeRtEsT: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
19:39:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
19:39:44 <oerjan> Taneb: it's not a proper viking raid without some church burning
19:41:13 <AnotherTest> oerjan: Question about stabilizers. Could you scetch a proof that the index of the stabilzer of p, G_p, in G is the order of the orbital of G containing p; |pG| = (G : G_p)
19:41:27 <olsner> hmm, for some reason *this* rainbow welcome caused a flashback to the time of writing quickbasic programs printing text in various colors
19:41:34 <olsner> weird that that never happened before
19:41:45 <oerjan> what's the definition of stabilizer again.
19:41:45 <AnotherTest> or is this something very logical? Because in this book I'm reading it's not really proven, and I don't immediately see why that is true
19:42:04 <AnotherTest> oerjan: set of elements that leave p \in G unchanged under a group action
19:42:32 <Taneb> Bike, I'm pretty sure William Wallace burnt the same church down
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19:45:18 <oerjan> AnotherTest: well hm it's probably simple...
19:46:32 <oerjan> wait is G acting on itself.
19:47:01 <oerjan> so p is not necessarily in G.
19:47:41 <oerjan> i'd imagine it's true even if it doesn't.
19:48:52 <oerjan> something like this: for every element in the orbital pick an element of G sending p to it; then all elements in G are a unique multiple of the chosen element sending p to the same thing and an element of the stabilizer.
19:50:06 <oerjan> (i leave it as an exercise to multiply things in the right order :P)
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19:51:15 <oerjan> do you understand the idea of my sketch?
19:52:45 <oerjan> it's about pairing G with tuples from pG, G_p
19:53:00 <oerjan> a bijection between G and pG x G_p
19:53:39 <oerjan> hm i think the stabilizer should be first, assuming the pG notation is what i think
19:54:28 <oerjan> yes, just that you multiply with G elements on the right
19:54:53 <AnotherTest> why is it always possible to pick an element in the orbital so that p -> the element
19:56:39 <oerjan> if you have an element x of pG, then there must be a g in G such that x = pg by definition.
19:57:23 <oerjan> it's not necessarily unique, but you get all the others by multiplying g with something from the stabilizer.
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19:57:47 <AnotherTest> because the orbital is the equivalence class etc
19:58:24 <oerjan> i thought it was just an ordinary subset of G or S.
19:59:19 <oerjan> i suppose some of this needs a little checking, which _should_ be nearly trivial.
19:59:30 <AnotherTest> oerjan: according to this book, it is the equivalence class defined by some relation x ~ y <=> x = yg for some g \in G
20:00:39 <oerjan> and yes, the fact that it is an equivalence class is part of what is needed for this to work.
20:01:42 <AnotherTest> by the way, are all of these notions (stabilizer, centralizer and what not) really important in applications like cryptography
20:01:57 <AnotherTest> or in for example the sector that you work in, not sure what that is
20:02:33 <oerjan> i'm not working any longer, but when i did, orbit(al)s were a big deal.
20:04:08 <AnotherTest> what about the other things like stabilizers?
20:06:31 <oerjan> our dynamical systems were usually free, which means the stabilizer is trivial.
20:06:45 <oerjan> and i don't recall using the term.
20:07:01 <oerjan> although i did have a small result on non-free systems in my PhD.
20:08:13 <oerjan> the group was usually pretty simple too, Z or Z^2.
20:08:36 <oerjan> oh wait i had a small result with a weirder group.
20:09:18 <mnoqy> those groups dont sound very simple to me :-)
20:09:33 <oerjan> mnoqy: um i mean not complicated
20:09:54 <mnoqy> yes thats my bad joke face
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20:10:50 <oerjan> it was like, when i started my PhD the theory for just Z was just proved by my advisor and colleagues, so i looked at various little generalizations.
20:11:10 <oerjan> (also of other aspects.)
20:12:24 <oerjan> but we didn't really use much group theory of the kind AnotherTest is alluding to. although their main theorem used group homology at a crucial step.
20:13:25 <oerjan> and i vaguely recall it was sort of serendipity that led them to find out the step they needed _was_ a result in group homology.
20:13:35 <AnotherTest> well the group theroy I'm asking about all the time might not be so useful in the end, I wouldn't know, I'm just a kid trying to figure this out
20:13:53 <oerjan> oh i'm sure it's useful for all kinds of things.
20:14:08 <oerjan> just not necessarily all at the same time :)
20:17:08 <`^_^v> does anyone know any good books on formal verification/model checking/static analysis?
20:17:22 <oerjan> i know group theory is extremely important in quantum physics, at least.
20:20:42 <AnotherTest> Anyway, thanks. I'm going to try to complete that proof
20:20:42 <oerjan> i spent a month in ireland once trying to cooperate with this guy who was researching quantum groups (which are _not_ groups but more a kind of "quantization" of them.)
20:21:17 <zzo38> I made up two D&D feats for use with spellcasters (wizard, sorcerer) having a familiar.
20:22:15 <zzo38> Familiar Enhanced Spell [Metamagic] (Requires: familiar) Increases slot level by 2. Familiar must be conscious and within range (5ft/caster level) during entire casting time, otherwise spell fails. Your control/concentration (including dismissal) of this spell is severed if familiar is unconscious or out of range, but is reinstated if consious/range.
20:23:51 <zzo38> You may select one of the effects as you cast this spell: [1] Familiar is targeted as if it is an object or different creature type. [2] Familiar is immune to effects of this spell. [3] Designate familiar as toucher even though not in contact with the caster. [4] Target familiar even if not in normal range of the spell (even personal can be changed to other than touch).
20:24:45 <zzo38> [5] Range is measured starting from familiar. [6] Save DC increase by 2 if familiar in 5ft of target. [7] Familiar's attack(s) against target(s) of spell have +4 attack +2 damage if used within 1 round of casting. [8] Caster has +3 Concentration with this spell while familiar in 5ft of caster. [9] Duration increased by 1d2 rounds for familiar if targeted.
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20:25:34 <zzo38> Should the slot level be different perhaps?
20:28:44 <zzo38> The other feat is: Wise Familiar [General, wizard can select as bonus feat] (Requires: familiar, caster level at least 2, spend 1 XP to select this feat) Int and Wis of familiar +2, but not exceed your own. If this results in their Int at least 10, they can 1/day as a spell-like ability, cast a 0-level spell you have available to cast, without expending the slot, at caster level 1. Cannot be used with spells having XP cost, expensive M/F component,
20:30:03 <boily> hmm... there needs to be a Summon Fungot spell.
20:30:17 <zzo38> boily: What will be that spell level, duration, etc?
20:30:57 <Bike> pretty sure that's epic-level
20:31:10 <boily> Bike: I was thinking along the lines of summon imp...
20:31:30 <boily> but then, I don't know about fungot's physical form.
20:31:30 <fungot> boily: mathematica has a fox! wonderful! :) gay fnord fnord)
20:31:50 <boily> Bike: a small woodland creature, it seems.
20:31:51 <zzo38> Do you think these two foots^Wfeats may be good, or a possible adjustment to make?
20:32:14 <zzo38> I do not expect fungot to have a physical form.
20:32:15 <fungot> zzo38: how did you do make a scheme based wiki, then you can't test for equality with floating point
20:32:48 <oerjan> no one expects the fungot with a physical form
20:32:48 <fungot> oerjan: if you're open minded, go for it offby1! you don't specify what multiplication is.
20:32:52 <zzo38> ... Why does a wiki software need floating point? ...
20:33:04 <boily> zzo38: random page.
20:33:07 <oerjan> zzo38: for unit conversions?
20:33:16 <Gregor> Why does selecting a random page require floating point?
20:33:24 <boily> the fungot cannot be stopped by that summoning alone!
20:33:24 <fungot> boily: and french is _not_ my favorite language. you're just saying that there's something wrong
20:33:52 <boily> fungot: eille! c'est quoi que t'as contre le français, espèce de bot dégénéré?
20:33:52 <fungot> boily: then if you use ' is', then
20:34:14 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, maybe for unit conversions, but would you need to test for equality in that case?
20:34:32 <boily> fungot: bin, c'est comme évident que j'utilise «être». c'est comme que genre le verbe le plus important?
20:34:32 <fungot> boily: but does it really teach programming?...
20:34:46 <boily> fungot: ouais, vaguement. mettons que c'est pas vargeux par moments.
20:34:46 <fungot> boily: so i made my point. where the action gets fnord. the two theses licenses are too weird, tusho
20:35:07 <boily> fungot: c'est pas parce que t'as raison que t'es obligé d'être méchant envers les francophones. non mais. tsé.
20:35:40 <zzo38> What are you thinking of these feats? Should a slight adjustment be made?
20:36:03 <boily> they seem pretty good, imo. and besides, nothing like playtesting them.
20:37:04 <zzo38> Yes, although I would have to select them to playtesting them and do not intend to do so right away and if is no good should be adjusted. There are too many possible situations to test so you have to make a thought-experiment at least would be one thing.
20:37:44 <zzo38> I mean if it is a bit too powerful possibly then it might be better to increase the slot level by more than 2 or to add further restrictions, or something like that
20:37:45 <boily> geD&Dkenexperiment.
20:38:55 <zzo38> For example by comparing it to existing things and thinking of what would make them too powerful
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20:40:53 <zzo38> Maybe it should also say, familiar is not allowed to do other things (such as attacking) during casting time.
20:42:56 <HackEgo> 2013-10-19 22:25:10: <elliott> haha, you can pay through bitcoin
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21:22:22 <fizzie> @tell boily It's this mythical machine that makes endless amounts of grain, salt and money. Haven't you read the Donald Duck story?
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21:23:54 <fizzie> oerjan: He asked about the sampo.
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21:24:39 <fizzie> (And the story is "The Quest for Kalevala", by Don Rosa.)
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21:25:02 <fizzie> It has some nice scenes with recognizable locations in Helsinki.
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21:33:18 <oerjan> "The publication of this story created a national sensation in Finland where Donald Duck and the Kalevala are important aspects of culture."
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21:35:21 <oerjan> i think don rosa appeared at approximately the time when i stopped reading donald duck...
21:36:57 <fizzie> I don't think I was ordering the magazine when most of his stories came out, but I've got several of the separate books.
21:38:57 <kmc> Donald Duck is an important aspect of culture in Finland?
21:39:09 <fizzie> I think that's a reasonably fair statement.
21:39:30 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_duck#Nordic_Countries
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21:41:14 <olsner> huh, it's "Donald Duck" in norwegian?
21:41:34 <fizzie> oerjan: That's kind of lazy.
21:41:42 <kmc> 'Finnish voters placing "protest votes" typically write "Donald Duck" as the candidate'
21:42:10 <olsner> I thought norwegians were highly anti-english about anything that could have norwegian words
21:42:13 <oerjan> indeed. most other character names are translated, though.
21:42:25 <olsner> kmc: you don't do that?
21:42:36 <fizzie> The number of Donald Duck votes is mentioned sometimes after elections.
21:42:39 <oerjan> olsner: well in _theory_...
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21:43:22 <kmc> we had a student government constitutional crisis after someone wrote in "God" and someone else wrote in "Fake Shawn's Bike". also this was on a ballot where "No" is already an official option
21:43:45 <fizzie> They don't release official statistics of disqualified votes, I think, but there are some smaller-scale extrapolations.
21:44:39 <kmc> no, the crisis was over whether voting for someone who isn't a student / doesn't exist / is a bicycle would invalidate your whole ballot or whether those entries would simply be removed from the preference ordering
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21:45:03 <Fiora> but Bike is a student
21:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> and the reason people didn't just go for the latter was...?
21:45:12 <fizzie> http://static.iltalehti.fi/presidentinvaalit/liput22401HL_pd.jpg that's one vote-counter's personal count of discarded votes.
21:45:16 <shachaf> Right, that's why kmc had to specify "is a bicycle" separately.
21:45:22 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: well you have to interpret what the constitution says!!!!
21:45:24 <fizzie> Donald Duck ("Aku Ankka") is third from the top.
21:45:27 <kmc> you can't just decide arbitrarily
21:45:35 <kmc> that would make a mockery of the whole concept of student government!
21:45:39 <oerjan> daisy duck is translated as "dolly", which is different from the original yet clearly english.
21:45:43 <fizzie> (Presidential election of 2012.)
21:46:13 <kmc> http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/11/23/so_why_would_someone_for_the_lizard_people "A man who claims to be the voter behind the infamous Lizard People ballot in the U.S. Senate race recount has come forward."
21:46:36 <fizzie> And the right column is listing how many votes had some additional graphics (hearts, smileys or so) in addition to the number of an actual candidate, which is also grounds for disqualifying the vote.
21:47:00 <kmc> http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/11/19/20081119_lizardpeople_33.jpg
21:47:23 <kmc> fizzie: haha
21:47:41 <zzo38> Obviously they voted lizard people because they don't like any of the other candidates. Same reason someone vote Mickey Mouse, I suppose.
21:47:44 <kmc> and what's "haavsto" and "ninistö"
21:48:02 <kmc> (or whatever words those are)
21:48:02 <fizzie> kmc: "Haavisto" and "Niinistö", names of the two actual candidates.
21:48:10 <zzo38> As well as anything else you would vote for, if you don't like any of the other candidates, you will vote for the remaining one, whether or not it is one of the choices.
21:48:28 <fizzie> I think this is from the second round when only two candidates are left.
21:48:32 <kmc> clearly if you're running for office it's advantageous to have a name with no dots in it (harder in finnish!)
21:48:56 <fizzie> http://www.iltalehti.fi/presidentinvaalit/2012012415112887_pd.shtml has a couple of samples of actual discarded votes, too.
21:49:08 <fizzie> (There's one number 2 with a heart, for example.)
21:49:20 <Jafet> Is that why "Hussein" gets dropped
21:49:23 <oerjan> <kmc> that would make a mockery of the whole concept of student government! <-- now i'm thinking of that quote from terry pratchett's The Last Continent.
21:49:41 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not one of the candidates either, sorry.
21:50:21 <fizzie> The "EI HOMOILLE" text in one (voting for #6) means approximately "NO GAYS"; the other candidate (#2) was a gay man.
21:50:21 <shachaf> zzo38: i just nominated you "checkmate"
21:50:54 <fizzie> I see there's also one "bullshit we can believe in" Obama sticker.
21:51:19 <kmc> hm so you vote by writing a name or a number in the "N:o" circle?
21:51:47 <kmc> hm there's an election next month, maybe I should register to vote
21:51:59 <fizzie> There's a list inside the voting cubicle if you've happened to forget the number.
21:52:01 <kmc> oh today is the last day for doing so
21:52:42 <fizzie> We don't have any voter registration here -- they just mail the papers to everyone eligible.
21:53:15 <oerjan> you americans and your silly vote registration and having to fill in your own tax forms
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21:53:28 <kmc> looks like I can vote for.... city attorney, treasurer, and assessor-recorder, all of whom are incumbants running unopposed
21:53:31 <fizzie> Not that the turnout is terribly great. There's a noticeable correlation with the turnout and how nice the weather is.
21:53:36 <kmc> and some Propositions
21:53:41 <oerjan> and checks, mustn't forget checks.
21:53:45 <kmc> two (related) of which are actually controversial
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21:54:14 <kmc> regarding whether or not to build http://8washington.com/
21:54:17 <fizzie> Yeah, that's the other thing, you've got so many of them elections.
21:54:25 <fizzie> I don't think we average even one per year.
21:54:28 <kmc> (yes, SF zoning laws are so fucked that the only way to build anything is to get direct approval from voters)
21:55:18 <olsner> if you count the three parts of each normal election, sweden might even reach 3/4 elections per year
21:55:24 <kmc> and yet the people who want no new development also want rents to be much lower
21:55:30 <kmc> as though the supply of housing has nothing to do with the price
21:55:46 <fizzie> There's the presidential one with a 6-year interval, the EU parliament one with a 5-year one, the Finnish parliamentary elections every four years, and the muncipal thing every fourth year also.
21:55:54 <fizzie> I guess that averages out to little less than one.
21:56:03 <olsner> hmm, EU something, I guess we have those too probably
21:56:09 <Jafet> America, bastion of democracy
21:56:48 <fizzie> Though the presidential election often (almost always?) has two rounds.
21:56:50 <fizzie> > 2/6 + 1/5 + 1/4 + 1/4
21:56:56 <fizzie> I guess that's a bit more than one, then.
21:57:36 <oerjan> we usually just have the parliamentary and municipal/county ones, unless you count church elections and the saami parliament which are only for some people.
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21:57:59 <fizzie> Oh, I think there's a church thing too.
21:58:03 <fizzie> But that's only for members, I think.
21:58:25 <oerjan> i could vote in the church ones if i cared, but i'm not saami.
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21:58:49 <fizzie> And also the Åland Islands hold their own votes for their governing body.
21:59:42 <oerjan> referendums are rare in norway, usually just every time we decide not to join the EU. although the capital had one this year for whether they should try to get the winter olympics.
22:00:23 * kmc keeps forgetting that norway isn't in the EU
22:00:30 <fizzie> oerjan: We've had a total of two so far. (1931, to abolish prohibition, and 1994 to join the EU.)
22:00:49 <kmc> California has a tradition of absurd ballot measures
22:00:59 <fizzie> oerjan: I guess if we hadn't joined, we'd also keep on doing it. Though they're all very non-binding to the parliament, so it's mostly just a formal opinion poll.
22:01:19 <kmc> like Proposition 65
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22:01:38 <kmc> which requires basically every object and location in the state to be labeled as containing hazardous chemicals
22:01:43 <kmc> quite cumbersome
22:01:52 <Fiora> kmc: my apartment complex has signs warnin it may cause cancer
22:02:23 <oerjan> i'm not sure if norway maybe had some prohibition-related referendum once. we did have prohibition.
22:02:27 <shachaf> Living in California may cause cancer, I hear.
22:02:29 <olsner> oh, is that the "known by the state of california to cause cancer" stuff?
22:02:32 <kmc> olsner: yes
22:02:59 <oerjan> fizzie: they're not binding in norway either.
22:03:17 <olsner> it's an odd sentence ... how does it know? can a state even have knowledge?
22:03:39 <shachaf> Can a window have knowledge?
22:03:56 <Bike> what if the window is full of tardigrades
22:04:02 <fizzie> Heh; 70.6% of the votes over the whole country in 1931 were for abolishing prohibition; but in Åland the corresponding number was 98%.
22:04:09 <fizzie> I guess they don't have very much to do out there.
22:04:40 <shachaf> Bike: if that's a pun i must be missing it :'(
22:05:14 <Bike> no i mean literal tardigrades.
22:05:17 <kmc> how long did prohibition last in finland
22:05:19 <oerjan> ok norway has had 6: one to separate from sweden, one to stay a monarchy, one to introduce prohibition, one to repeal prohibition, and two to stay out of the EEC/EU.
22:05:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you have a government monopoly on all things booze-related too?
22:05:26 <oerjan> (6 nationwide, that is.)
22:06:04 <shachaf> Bike: well i meant a literal ledge
22:06:26 <fizzie> I guess that matches quite closely the US.
22:07:03 <Bike> yes, literal tardigrades in a literal window
22:07:05 <fizzie> "1907 to 1992 in Faroe Islands; limited private imports from Denmark were allowed from 1928" well it's nice to see some people sticking to their principles.
22:08:17 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/The_Drunkard%27s_Progress_-_Color.jpg that's how it goes.
22:08:20 <oerjan> norway was 1919-1925 so we got out a bit earlier.
22:08:51 <oerjan> also in norway it was just hard liquor.
22:09:08 <kmc> Fiora: otoh my friends live next to the Middlefield-Ellis-Whisman EPA Superfund site and there aren't any signs up about that
22:09:22 <kmc> trichloroethane in the groundwater
22:09:37 <kmc> thanks to Fairchild, Intel, and Raytheon
22:09:44 <olsner> maybe if you pay someone they can forget a few things that were previously known to cause cancer
22:09:44 <Bike> now i'm remembering that there's a literal plague outbreak in madagascar right now
22:09:46 <shachaf> is there an EPA EPA Superfund site
22:09:53 <kmc> shachaf: probably, let me look
22:10:05 -!- shikhin__ has quit (Read error: No route to host).
22:10:41 <fizzie> oerjan: The 1931 referendum had three options; abolish entirely, allow only mild drinks, or keep as-is. 70.6% for first and 28.0% for last, but only 1.4% for the middle road. I suppose we didn't want to do something a bunch of Norwegians already tried out.
22:10:54 <Bike> «A team of researchers in India has retracted their 2012 paper in PLoS One on botulinum toxin for plagiarism — while blaming the journal for failing to use its “soft wares” to catch the plagiarism.»
22:11:15 <kmc> not sure actually shachaf
22:12:03 <Bike> would an EPA EPA Superfund site be a place where the EPA destroyed the environment?
22:12:12 <shachaf> it would be in East Palo Alto
22:13:02 <Bike> http://www.epa.gov/region9/superfund/cooley/index.html
22:13:25 <oerjan> finally got around to the last continent quote: "It lies on the Lassitude River, where an annual Regatta is held that attracts a lot of attention. Usually consisting of a race of wheeled boats pulled by camels on the sand, it was cancelled during the events of The Last Continent. It was felt that a river full of water made a mockery of the whole event."
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22:13:44 <oerjan> actually that's not a quote
22:13:57 <fizzie> Bike: Somehow that reminded me of the Sacrifice Zones from Snow Crash.
22:13:57 <oerjan> but a wiki description. gets the gist though.
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22:14:57 <shachaf> fizzie: i hear lakka liqueur is popular in .fi
22:15:00 <Bike> fizzie: well that's basically what a superfund site is, except that nominally it will be cleaned up in the future, except the EPA doesn't actually have the budget.
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22:15:25 <fizzie> shachaf: I... guess. I'd wager a guess it's not as popular as, say, Koskenkorva.
22:15:35 <Bike> Fiora: https://twitter.com/mc_hankins/status/392390498943381506/photo/1 "I know stats!"
22:15:55 <shachaf> fizzie: well actually i've never had the liqueur but i like the berries
22:16:06 <shachaf> and by popular i just mean i like them
22:16:41 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm sure it's popular-er here than in many other places, though. It's the kind of thing you'd take for dessert. (Perhaps even in the dessert.)
22:16:49 <kmc> oh yeah, the lake where I went sailing weekend before last used to be "544 acres of junkyard, hog farm, two substandard dumps, low lying flood plains, and a sewage treatment plant"
22:18:08 <kmc> http://www.shorelinelake.com/about/history.htm they imported 2400 tons of fill per day for 13 years
22:18:21 <Bike> fizzie: i actually live about an hour's drive from the most radioactive site in the united states, which is kind of weird.
22:19:02 <Fiora> Bike: which one's that?
22:19:15 <fizzie> The place I did my civil service year in, they distributed a paper to all homes officially disrecommending eating anything picked up nearby, there was an old lead processing plant nearby which was kind of an environmental disaster.
22:19:21 <Bike> site w, it's where they made the plutonium for the manhattan project.
22:19:33 <Bike> as you might imagine they didn't know how to make a reactor that wasn't messy as hell.
22:19:37 <Fiora> I guess you're probably still a bit far from idaho
22:19:55 <Fiora> wow. that is messy
22:20:00 <Fiora> "53 million gallons of waste"
22:20:08 <Fiora> "25 million cubic feet of solid waste" @_@
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22:20:11 <kmc> didn't know how, or didn't care because they were in a hurry and there was a war on
22:20:12 <olsner> how many squash courts is that?
22:20:29 <Bike> Fiora: i've seen pictures where there are just whole barrels of radioactive waste from the 40s sitting underwater without tops
22:20:38 <kmc> or didn't know what the long term effects of radiation are
22:21:20 <Bike> i didn't think of SL-1. i'm right near the idaho border, but the lab is on the other side of the state, it seems
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22:21:59 <oerjan> "In Sweden voters often voted for Donald Duck or the Donald Duck Party as a nonexistent candidate until a 2006 change in voting laws, which prohibited voting for nonexistent candidates." <-- my mind boggles at the idea that swedes are so law-abiding that the law made them _stop_ doing this. (i assume the votes would be discarded in any case, both before and after.)
22:22:21 <Bike> to be fair hanford is in one of the emptier parts of the country
22:22:43 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hanford_High_School.jpg but then,
22:22:44 <olsner> hmm, did that actually change the frequency of donald duck votes? I haven't heard about that law
22:23:04 <fizzie> There was someone wandering around the place I work at, looking for a nuclear reactor.
22:23:31 <fizzie> (The Otaniemi research reactor, which is about to be completely deactivated, is somewhere there.)
22:23:42 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spent_nuclear_fuel_hanford.jpg ah yeah, there's the photo
22:23:50 <kmc> 'Marshall later conceded that, "I had never never heard of atomic fission but I did know that you could not build much of a plant, much less four of them for $90 million. A single TNT plant that Nichols had recently built in Pennsylvania had cost $128 million.
22:23:59 <kmc> Nor were they impressed with estimates to the nearest order of magnitude, which Groves compared with telling a caterer to prepare for between ten and a thousand guests.'
22:24:28 <Bike> engineers strike again
22:24:33 <kmc> more like physicists
22:24:44 <Bike> can't get my joeks straight :(
22:24:54 <fizzie> "There is a small research reactor located in Otaniemi, Espoo; a TRIGA Mark II, built for the Helsinki University of Technology in 1962." "TRIGA Mark II" sounds fancy.
22:25:28 <fizzie> The kind if thing you'd expect a family to have in the basement in an outdated sci-fi.
22:26:24 <Bike> TRIGA is the model at my school too :3
22:27:04 <kmc> "One of Groves' early problems was to find a director for Project Y, the group that would design and build the bomb.... Compton recommended Oppenheimer, who was already intimately familiar with the bomb design concepts. However, Oppenheimer had little administrative experience, and, unlike Urey, Lawrence or Compton, had not won a Nobel Prize, which many scientists felt that the head of such an important laboratory should have."
22:27:10 <kmc> that's a tough job requirement
22:27:29 <kmc> "There were also concerns about Oppenheimer's security status, as many of his associates were communists"
22:28:04 <Bike> the number of communist physicists who worked on the project is a bit sad
22:28:49 <kmc> communism was cool back then right
22:29:01 <Bike> i mean, sad in that they apparently didn't think about the politics of what they were doing
22:29:30 <Bike> until afterwards when they all joined or started antiwar organizations, i mean
22:31:24 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1 this thing is scary
22:32:46 <Fiora> "whoopsies our 3 megawatt reactor just output 20 gigawatts"
22:33:17 <fizzie> Every time I go to some slightly related page, I end up doing a Wikipedia binge on nuclear "incidents" (nice word).
22:33:32 <Fiora> me too, it's kind of like with plane crashes >_<
22:33:47 <Fiora> or like how someone links to something about stellar remnants and I spend a day reading about supernovae
22:34:43 <fizzie> Ending up in the Therac-25 page is also always a bummer.
22:37:36 <Bike> "Previous models had hardware interlocks in place to prevent this, but Therac-25 had removed them, depending instead on software interlocks for safety. The software interlock could fail due to a race condition." eesh.
22:39:25 <Bike> i think Goiânia is the worst i know of, it's like some kind of fucked up heist film
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22:41:29 <Bike> "He inserted the screwdriver and successfully scooped out some of the glowing substance. Thinking it was perhaps a type of gunpowder, he tried to light it, but the powder would not ignite" for example
22:42:37 <fizzie> There's also the "demon core".
22:43:14 <fizzie> "While attempting to stack another brick around the assembly, Daghlian accidentally dropped it onto the core and thereby caused the core to go critical, a self-sustaining chain reaction."
22:43:23 <olsner> accidents involving people actually working with it seem less grave though
22:43:24 <fizzie> That must've been also quite a sinking feeling.
22:43:28 <Fiora> fizzie: and the Slotin incident
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22:46:21 <Fiora> the experiment slotin was doing is ridiculously terrifying, holding the reflector above the core with a *screwdriver*
22:46:52 <olsner> that sounds a bit like a stupidly constructed experiment
22:47:12 <Fiora> "Slotin, who was given to bravado, became the local expert, performing the test almost a dozen separate times, often in his trademark bluejeans and cowboy boots, in front of a roomful of observers. Enrico Fermi reportedly told Slotin and others they would be "dead within a year" if they continued performing it."
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22:49:16 <fizzie> Within a year, I think.
22:49:43 <fizzie> Well, Fermi did have one of them Nobels.
22:50:44 <kmc> Nobel Prize for Not Dying
22:50:45 <olsner> I think one of my favorite accidents is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire
22:50:53 <fizzie> (I mean, he died nine days after the accident; it's not listed very clearly in the source how long before that the Fermi warning was, but I doubt it was more than a year.)
22:51:26 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tickling_the_Dragons_Tail.jpg
22:52:00 <kmc> BuzzFeed: 12 Most EPIC FAIL Nuclear Accidents
22:52:10 <kmc> animated cat gif for each
22:52:45 <fizzie> I don't think Finland really has had (knocking on wood) any proper nuclear accidents.
22:52:59 <Bike> Fiora: shudder
22:53:11 <Fiora> Bike: like, even knowing that's a simulation, it's terrifying to just look at that
22:53:18 <Taneb> Man, I love the fact that Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download exists
22:54:08 <Fiora> "excursion" makes it sound like some sort of trip
22:54:16 <Fiora> "where are we going today, ms. frizzle?"
22:54:22 <Fiora> "we're going on a criticality excursion!"
22:54:50 <Fiora> "awwwwww, I knew I should have stayed home today!"
22:54:53 <Bike> glad it's not just me
22:55:10 <Bike> fizzie: did you have RTGs in the arctic or anything
22:55:22 <kmc> Real Fast Nora's Criticality Excursion 3: Shear Disaster Download
22:55:37 <kmc> Bike: oh yeah the Soviet Union left a bunch of RTGs lying around the far arctic unattended
22:55:42 <kmc> sometimes people steal them
22:55:43 <Bike> right, that's what i was thinking
22:55:46 <kmc> or try to cuddle with them for warmth
22:55:46 <Bike> get yo lighthouse on
22:55:49 <shachaf> y'all should learn about wavelet trees too
22:55:53 <kmc> one time they dropped one into a lake by accident
22:55:53 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/wavelet.txt
22:56:04 <kmc> but they also crashed a nuclear reactor into Canada that one time
22:56:06 <kmc> which seems worse
22:56:07 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm too sad that Google Wave didn't catch on
22:56:22 <shachaf> wavelet trees are unrelated to Google Wave
22:56:28 <shachaf> and mostly unrelated to wavelets
22:57:14 <kmc> shachaf: "Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8" pls
22:57:17 <shachaf> maybe they're related to wavelets?? they're a bit like a progressive encoding of a string in an arbitrary alphabet
22:57:22 <Fiora> Bike: I love how like. the US pu-238 (I think?) RTG fuel units are totally non-radioactive
22:57:33 <Fiora> so you could actually cuddle them (minus the whole, like, 500 celcius thing)
22:57:46 <Bike> hooray cuddles
22:58:03 <olsner> is that RTG as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator ?
22:58:15 <Taneb> I'm thinking about next term taking an introduction to Dutch module
22:58:23 <fizzie> Bike: Not that I know of.
22:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> and anyway an RTG is designed to absorb as much of its own radiation as possible, that's the whole point
22:58:42 <olsner> Taneb: are Dutch modules related to D-modules?
22:58:49 <fizzie> Bike: I was trying to Google for any nuclear mishaps in Finland, but only got some decidedly paranoid-looking rambling.
22:58:52 <Taneb> olsner, what the hell did you think the D stood for
22:58:58 <fizzie> Bike: "I have also made notice of that there is triangle shaped thunderstorms which reach Estonian. This isnt natural that they are triangle shaped. And also, always coming above the nuclear plant. So my theory is that nuclear radiation causes electrical phenomenom in atmosphere that raises serious thunder."
22:59:10 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fueling_of_the_MSL_MMRTG_001.jpg
22:59:11 <kmc> triangular shaped radiation
23:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> does anyone remember the Great Reddit Nuclear Accident of 2012
23:00:15 <zzo38> Ask someone if they can understand the "sideways reasoning" puzzle I asked to Dungeons&Dragons game.
23:00:49 <Taneb> shachaf, fool, how nïave
23:01:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I wish I couldn't remember what I had for breakfast
23:01:53 <Taneb> (the milk had gone off... I don't have very good luck with milk)
23:02:48 <olsner> where did the milk go off to?
23:03:23 <fizzie> Bike: Went to read of the Goiânia thing, hit the "the guard in charge of daytime security -- did not show up to work, using a sick day to attend a cinema screening of Herbie Goes Bananas with his family" bit.
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23:11:43 <Taneb> Aaaah I'm suddenly remembering some really awful Haskell code I wrote when I was just learning the language
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23:13:28 <Taneb> I want to travel back in time and hit myself and shout "Don't bother, this ways kind of really dumb"
23:13:41 <Taneb> But then maybe I needed the learning experience
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00:19:00 <Sgeo> http://www.jwz.org/blog/2013/10/today-in-computational-necromancy-2/
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00:20:00 <Bike> "simply transmit the program via the audio jack" is a pretty great phrase
00:21:00 <kmc> yes I used to store my TRS-80 Model 100 programs as .WAV files on my parents' Windows 95 machine
00:22:46 <kmc> the MIT intro signal processing class has a lab where you transmit data using speaker and microphone: https://github.com/keithw/onepingonly
00:40:52 <kmc> there's also http://www.araneus.fi/audsl/
00:42:40 <pikhq> Pity it can't do V.90.
00:44:40 <kmc> i wonder what's the fastest "real modem" standard you can implement with a sound card
00:45:30 <pikhq> Almost certainly waaay faster than v.90. That's what winmodems *are*, so.
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00:47:50 <kmc> I'm having trouble believing that you can go from 44.1k 16-bit samples per second to way more than 56 kilobits per second
00:48:00 <kmc> i don't really know though
00:48:10 <kmc> do winmodems really offload everything besides the DAC/ADC?
00:48:34 <kmc> (I guess I'm using the word "offload" backwards of its usual meaning)
00:49:33 <pikhq> Common soundcards often surpass 44.1k 16-bit samples (for no good reason)
00:50:31 <kmc> but anyway this AuDSL does 96 kbps so clearly I'm wrong and it is possible
00:50:33 <Jafet> Yet distort the input
00:51:12 <pikhq> The reason for 56kbps is pretty simple, FWIW. The audio channel it's going over is (effectively) 7-bit 8k mu-law PCM.
00:51:13 <kmc> er I guess that just comes from 4-level amplitude modulation * 48 kHz sample rate
00:51:32 <kmc> pikhq: the POTS is?
00:52:08 <pikhq> POTS is *actually* 8-bit 8kHz, but the low bit is stolen for in-band signalling on a regular basis, making it hard to use.
00:52:10 <kmc> AuDSL doesn't seem to have any error correcting code
00:52:58 <kmc> pikhq: tricky
00:54:06 <pikhq> So yeah. 56kbps is the limit because that's literally the rate that POTS guarantees over digital switching.
00:54:25 <Bike> huh, that's neat to know.
00:54:40 <kmc> and the analog last-mile is good enough that you don't lose very much there?
00:54:44 <Jafet> Does that mean that you can read the signalling by taking the low bits off your telephone line
00:55:12 <pikhq> Which is also why you only get 56kbps down. Because it only actually works when you can control the PCM coming out.
00:55:17 <pikhq> Jafet: I.. think so?
00:55:31 <kmc> what do you mean by that?
00:55:52 <pikhq> The end point of a 56k modem line isn't hooked up via analog last-mile.
00:56:23 <kmc> the end at the service you're dialing into, you mean?
00:56:27 <Bike> maybe this will inspire me to try figuring out the ethernet on my FPGA board again
00:56:46 <kmc> okay, but I still don't see why that makes down different from up
01:04:24 <zzo38> Do you see the same problem I see with this chess problem? http://www.chessvariants.org/problems.dir/chaturangadehaas.html
01:07:29 <zzo38> Actually I think there is another problem too.
01:09:02 <zzo38> No, probably just one.
01:14:11 <zzo38> How can I pattern match rose trees, for example A(B C(D E) F G(H(I))) and I want to match A(? C(*) F G(?)) or whatever and then use the parameters received to do a replacement or some other program
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01:22:00 <zzo38> I have tried to ask anyone but nobody can know this yet.
01:24:43 <zzo38> I may also want to match it elsewhere in the tree, rather than only the top.
01:25:12 <zzo38> The tree is stored in a SQL table with one record per node, although if I can match in C that is good enough; such thing can be made to provide to SQL.
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01:30:43 <ION> MERRY INTERNATIONAL CAPS LOCK DAY
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01:40:46 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/c2bc96625b70798ce816820ab3af7625/tumblr_muuav0Erwl1s1y5f6o1_500.png meanwhile in something bitcoin
01:42:03 <zzo38> Do you participate in not spaces day instead?
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02:00:00 <kmc> *international* caps lock day? sounds communist
02:00:39 <kmc> american caps lock day is 4 months later to avoid such associations
02:01:37 <kmc> Bike: the anarcho-libertarian sausage shop in Berkeley didn't seem to accept Bitcoin :/
02:01:42 <kmc> i didn't have the guts to ask though
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02:17:40 <Sgeo> :( DrRacket seems to like freezing when I make an infinite loop in what should be a different thread
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02:29:48 <Sgeo> Syncing on system-idle-evt seems to be working now, hmm
02:29:55 <Sgeo> Nope, just froze
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02:53:34 <kmc> aw man you can't "actually" jump to the legacy vsyscall page at 0xffffffffff600000 on modern Linux
02:53:41 <kmc> it claims to be mapped executable but this is a lie
02:55:16 <kmc> the kernel traps it and emulates the old behavior because MUST NOT BREAK USERSPACE ABI EVER
02:55:28 <kmc> this also means that the old way of making an extra fast syscall is now extra slow
02:55:46 <kmc> i guess a 100x performance regression doesn't count as breaking userspace ABI
02:56:13 <Bike> oh, wait, is this linux-gate.dso or whatever
02:56:24 <kmc> it's the old version of that
02:56:36 <kmc> which is just raw machine code mapped at a fixed address
02:56:43 <Bike> sounds sensible
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02:57:05 <Jafet> I wonder why the page apparently has three syscall instructions followed by rets
02:57:08 <kmc> this is nice and simple but also very useful for exploit writers, to have a SYSCALL; RET sequence at a known address
02:57:29 <kmc> Jafet: this is the stuff for implementing clock_gettime() / gettimeofday() / etc. in userspace
02:57:32 <kmc> so there's one per call
02:57:37 <kmc> it's not the generic syscall path
02:57:55 <kmc> on AMD64 you make a syscall using the SYSCALL instruction directly
02:57:59 <Jafet> Oh, the polling thing
02:58:19 <kmc> it's only on i386 that you go through the vDSO for all syscalls
02:58:21 <kmc> polling thing?
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02:58:34 <Jafet> Is this the one where linux writes the time into the page itself
02:58:41 <kmc> something like that yeah
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02:59:25 <kmc> anyway the legacy fixed-address thing is deprecated and so the code sequences were reverted to real syscalls in order to be less useful to exploit writers
03:00:25 <kmc> the new (not that new) vDSO is an ordinary ELF shared object; the kernel maps it into memory and then passes its address to the dynamic linker, which links it like any other .so
03:00:48 <kmc> and that means its address can be randomized as well
03:01:35 <kmc> I feel kinda dumb talking about this trivia because it's just trivia
03:01:59 <Bike> it's a cool thing though. i like linkers even if i don't understand then
03:02:10 <kmc> maybe I can't solve hard problems and I just collect trivia instead but both seem to be useful so w/e
03:02:44 <kmc> Bike: http://www.iecc.com/linker/ is cool
03:03:56 <kmc> i should (re)read more of it
03:04:39 <Bike> oh yeah i've seen that
03:04:55 <Bike> some cool php errors maybe i should actually read it instead of uh *looks at tabs* something about tunicates
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03:13:07 <kmc> it's weird that many of the people campaigning for affordable housing in SF also want no new housing built anywhere
03:13:14 <kmc> they just want all the people they don't like to stop trying to live here
03:13:30 <kmc> or they want the govt to magically make housing cheap without a tax base of rich tech workers to draw on
03:13:48 <kmc> (not that the current city govt would be remotely capable of doing that in an efficent way, anyway)
03:13:59 <Bike> did you see that thing i retweeted about silicon valley seceeding
03:14:22 <Bike> it was pretty great that a journalist took it seriously
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03:21:58 <kmc> otoh it's not clear that building a bunch of new luxury apartments will help
03:22:12 <kmc> it might result in people like me moving out of the historically lower income areas, causing rents to fall there
03:22:24 <kmc> or it might result in more of us moving to the city from elsewhere
03:23:35 <kmc> economics of housing are fucking weird and it's one of the areas where simple supply/demand analysis is most wrong
03:24:22 <Bike> i actually know the few things i do about housing prices from a microeconomics class (since rent controls make for a good example)
03:24:31 <kmc> what things do you know
03:24:39 <Bike> less than you!
03:24:56 <kmc> not sure about that!
03:24:57 <Bike> mostly i remember that rent controlled apartments tend to have ended up in the hands of people who don't need rent control so much
03:25:07 <kmc> i have basically no formal knowledge of economics
03:25:51 <kmc> yeah i'm in a rent controlled unit and so are a lot of my fellow rich tech wanker friends
03:28:23 * pikhq finds rent control... weird
03:30:37 <shachaf> copumpkin: how are the pumpkins
03:32:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Rent control is a scheme wherein governments mandate that a rent cannot increase by more than a certain percentage at a time.
03:34:05 <pikhq> Particularly nuts when utilities are included with rent.
03:34:41 <pikhq> And you live in New York State. C'mon, NY runs on rent control.
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03:35:06 <Sgeo> I'm still living in the apartment that my dad owns
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03:37:33 <trout> pikhq: SF is worst than NY
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03:38:56 <zhr0> http://www.thevenusproject.com/online-community
03:41:16 <kmc> what about it
03:41:34 <kmc> `rwelcome zhr0
03:41:38 <HackEgo> zhr0: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:43:42 <Bike> well, at least it's not porn.
03:43:59 <Jafet> I was expecting porn
03:44:35 <Bike> Apparently it involves cybernating.
03:44:56 <Bike> But seriously, spamming ain't cool.
03:45:49 <Bike> Books such as 1984 and Brave New World, and motion pictures such as Blade-Runner and Terminator 2 have spawned fear in some people regarding the takeover of technology in our society. The Venus Project's only purpose is to elevate the spiritual and intellectual potential of all people, while at the same time providing the goods and services that will meet their individual and material needs.
03:46:51 <Bike> I wish people wouldn't use nervous system analogies to refer to any distributed system.
03:46:54 <Jafet> Bike seriously, spamming ain't cool
03:47:23 <Bike> I'm not spamming. I'm sharing information with the world.
03:55:15 <kmc> bike seriously
03:56:52 <Bike> It's just one paste, that's not actually spamming, I hope
03:58:57 <shachaf> Save often! Floss regularly! Floss meaningfully! Floss athletically! Think happy thoughts! And above all, never forget: who is the Boss of you? Me! I am the Boss of you!
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04:32:49 <oklofok> Bike pls why u keep spammin
04:33:52 <oklofok> i have my first driving lesson tomorrow
04:34:09 <Bike> it's just like riding a bike
04:35:37 <shachaf> oklofok: i heard driving lessons in finland are basically impossible
04:36:14 <shachaf> do you know about succinct data structures y/n
04:36:39 <Bike> man i wish i was succinct
04:37:50 <oklofok> i hate doing impossible things
04:38:20 <shachaf> well, driving in finland is not actually impossible
04:38:26 <shachaf> but braking is equivalent to the halting problem
04:39:20 <Bike> it's true, coming to a complete stop is just asymptote-chasing
04:39:59 <Bike> have you considered just adjusting your reference frame so that you're not moving
04:40:13 <oklofok> oh my god that was the best joke ever
04:40:35 <Bike> feel very good about my humor sense now
04:41:15 <Bike> you don't need to soften the blow
04:41:21 <Bike> i know i;m terible
04:41:25 <shachaf> Please remain seated until the plane has come to a complete stop. Thank you for flying Zeno Airlines.
04:41:56 <shachaf> now my average is 5/10 :'(
04:43:33 <zzo38> I am unable to do impossible things. It may seem that some impossible things can sometimes happen, but I doubt it.
04:43:51 <oklofok> but isn't it the definition of impossible things that they cannot happen
04:43:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, it's impossible for impossible things to happen.
04:44:04 <shachaf> So most people conclude that they never do.
04:44:08 <shachaf> But that's circular logic!
04:44:34 <oklofok> things that have once been described as impossible may well be doable, but then that description, by definition, was wrong.
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04:44:47 <Bike> man i wish i was impossible
04:45:00 <Bike> apparently just braking me is though
04:45:00 <zzo38> oklofok: O, OK, yes I suppose you would be correct about that.
04:45:01 <shachaf> don't worry, Bike. you are
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05:03:43 <shachaf> ais[...]@gmail.com turned out not to be ais523 :-(
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10:05:52 <fizzie> A DISCONTINUED MUCH AS IN THE REASONS HE'S A RECENT EVENTS HAVE PROMPTED BY AN OUNCE AT THE C. A. N. S.
10:06:10 <fizzie> fungot: Even you make more sense than these results.
10:06:10 <fungot> fizzie: maybe its just my lack of a standard.
10:06:17 <fungot> fizzie: lol this game is awesome. fnord, c. a compiled scheme rewrite seems the best way
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11:20:38 <ION> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/1owwcz/pupesoft_a_finnish_erp_app/
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11:51:44 <oerjan> huh lolphp censors nicks?
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11:55:38 <oerjan> ok that was as easy to get around as expected.
11:56:11 <oerjan> i suppose it keeps out the chaff.
12:04:48 <ION> HAPPY CAPS LOCK DAY
12:05:54 <fizzie> HireFly, a killer for hire.
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12:18:11 <boily> good croissant morning!
12:19:01 <boily> fizzie: I don't think I did.
12:24:32 <fizzie> Well, you should, to keep up with things.
12:27:18 <boily> my backlog has a backlog backlog, and on top of that I'm piling up this season's series.
12:27:57 <boily> (and I have a bunch of bundles of books and stories to read, sets of albums to listen to, and a bluetooth device to pair.)
12:42:05 <fizzie> At least there's just one of those.
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12:47:29 <boily> fizzie: one device that I still can't pair. why must it be so fscking complex?
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14:08:27 <boily> good my-machine-froze morning!
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14:29:16 <boily> what the fungot is going on. second crash.
14:29:22 <boily> fungot: yes, I do need.
14:29:22 <fungot> boily: if you aren't allowed to put fnord rye-bread in it's place in the world is the best
14:29:33 <boily> ...............wut?
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14:30:06 <boily> fungot: what has knäckebröd got to do with my computer problems?
14:30:06 <fungot> boily: it is implemented in bef86 though.
14:30:18 <fungot> boily: you need to be at the " object" metaphor. sue me.). it loses its
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14:35:36 <metasepia> CYUL 221429Z 25018G34KT 8SM -RA BKN015 OVC035 09/06 A2968 RMK SF5SC3 RERA PRESRR SLP052
14:35:42 <metasepia> Your divination: "Bound" to "Providing-For"
14:35:48 <metasepia> "I thought that you said you were 20 years old!"
14:35:48 <metasepia> "As a programmer, yes," she replied,
14:35:48 <metasepia> "And you claimed to be very near two meters tall!"
14:35:48 <metasepia> "You said you were blonde, but you lied!"
14:35:48 <metasepia> Oh, she was a hacker and he was one, too,
14:35:48 <metasepia> They had so much in common, you'd say.
14:35:48 <metasepia> They exchanged jokes and poems, and clever new hacks,
14:35:49 <metasepia> And prompts that were cute or risque'.
14:35:49 <metasepia> He sent her a picture of his brother Sam,
14:35:50 <metasepia> She sent one from some past high school day,
14:35:50 <metasepia> And it might have gone on for the rest of their lives,
14:35:51 <metasepia> "Your beard is an armpit," she said in disgust.
14:35:52 <metasepia> He answered, "Your armpit's a beard!"
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15:00:25 <JWinslow23> What about the Dysfunctional programming language?
15:01:39 <JWinslow23> It will be a new programming language I make.
15:02:24 <JWinslow23> The following could be a Hello, World program.
15:02:51 <mnoqy> are "Hello, World!" and 10 functions too
15:03:32 <mnoqy> but then how is everything a function
15:03:37 <JWinslow23> "Hello, World!" and a newline are displayed.
15:04:08 <nooodl_> everything is a function except the values
15:04:47 <mnoqy> so i take it functions aren't values
15:05:49 <mnoqy> is there anything interesting about functions? or by everything being a function do you just mean that you use the thingy(thingy,thingy) syntax
15:06:07 <Jafet> I think it is "satire"
15:06:11 <mnoqy> can you define INPUTNUM and GOTO and LBLDEFN and LABELIF in your language
15:06:20 <boily> it looks like you are programming a calculator.
15:06:31 <JWinslow23> INPUTNUM inputs a number to a variable as an argument.
15:06:35 <nooodl_> mnoqy: i'm imagining things like
15:06:42 <nooodl_> mapping lbldefn over some values
15:06:47 <JWinslow23> So INPUTNUM(x) inputs something and stores it into x.
15:07:14 <mnoqy> nooodl_: functions aren't values. map would have to be a special form. but there are no special forms. everything is a function.
15:07:19 <JWinslow23> LBLDEFN("labelname") defines a label, and GOTO("label") works in the same way.
15:08:00 <JWinslow23> LABELIF(conditional,goto_label_true,goto_label_false)
15:08:09 <Jafet> map could be a "value"
15:08:13 <nooodl_> JWinslow23: how are they different from simple keywords, though!
15:08:17 <mnoqy> JWinslow23: i meant, can you write a definition for them in your language. not an english definition. can you write a function that does exactly what INPUTNUM does, but it's written by you, and not a special part of the spec
15:08:34 <mnoqy> nooodl_: see: 08:05:49 <mnoqy> is there anything interesting about functions? or by everything being a function do you just mean that you use the thingy(thingy,thingy) syntax
15:08:38 <JWinslow23> Yeah, you can define your own functions.
15:08:54 <mnoqy> JWinslow23: but can they do the things that INPUTNUM and LBLDEFN and LABELIF do
15:09:01 <nooodl_> mnoqy: i'm going to socratically approach the "these aren't actually functions" wish me luck
15:09:10 <JWinslow23> FUNCDEFN(function_syntax,"codeblockname")
15:09:26 <JWinslow23> That makes a function that does whatever is in the codeblock.
15:09:39 <JWinslow23> CODEBLOCK("codeblockname") defines a codeblock.
15:09:52 <JWinslow23> CODEBLOCKEND("codeblockname") end a codeblock.
15:10:11 <mnoqy> seriously, what do you mean by these things being functions
15:10:31 <JWinslow23> This is partly inspired by spreadsheet syntax in Excel.
15:11:07 <nooodl_> ok i'm caving in: JWinslow23: see, the thing is, these functions are not really functions in a meaningful way, they're just syntax that looks like function calls
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15:11:37 <nooodl_> it's not suddenly a function! functions have real interesting properties
15:12:11 <elliott> dysfunctional programming is already a thing on the wiki. for what it's worth.
15:12:16 <JWinslow23> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Functional should not exist.
15:12:29 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/0x29A http://esolangs.org/wiki/Object_disoriented
15:12:51 <nooodl_> Functional makes the same mistake
15:13:29 <Jafet> I told you it was satire
15:16:10 <JWinslow23> OK, then can anyone help me make something like Brainmaker?
15:17:58 <JWinslow23> Also, how do you write ACTUAL code in Brainmaker?
15:18:06 <FreeFull> Anyone got any good resources for learning Clean? I want to see what uniqueness types are about
15:18:17 <mnoqy> nooodl_: tehz language
15:18:28 <mnoqy> nooodl_: you're familiar with tehz, right?
15:19:34 <mnoqy> then you're in for a treat
15:19:42 <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainmaker
15:20:44 <nooodl_> i like how it just starts talking about "cells", like,
15:20:53 <FreeFull> JWinslow23: You define a language and then write your code
15:20:54 <nooodl_> "you damn well know this is a bf derivative so let's just get over with it"
15:21:30 <FreeFull> Heh, there is no interpreter for it
15:22:27 <boily> uhm. can't we just... like... I don't know, maybe, perhaps like delete all those languages-which-are-very-boring-variations-of-one-another, and languages-which-aren't-even-esoteric-much-less-anything-at-all-i'm-looking-at-you-poison?
15:23:23 <nooodl_> i think i'd kill people if http://esolangs.org/wiki/poison disappeared
15:23:31 <mnoqy> my favorite part is the terminology tehz invented & made a page about to describe it. mostly the talk page. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Meta_Turing-complete it still hasn't been deleted
15:24:43 <nooodl_> "(unless you are an admin?)" nice
15:25:35 <mnoqy> oh apparently someone else invented it. i'll blame both of em
15:25:45 <boily> nooodl_: re: poison's disappearance: why would that make you violent?
15:27:22 <mnoqy> who remembers FURscript. who remembers Snack.
15:27:43 <nooodl_> esme... the language with the zombies,,,
15:27:57 <boily> who will have had to be remembered feather?
15:28:05 <nooodl_> SLEEP? ARE YOU CRAZY? LETS GET UP FOR MIDNIGHT DINNER
15:29:50 * boily backs away from that bunch of demented esötericians...
15:30:13 <elliott> nooodl_: I wasn't an admin at the time
15:30:24 <elliott> I'm not allowed to be that rude to people now that I am
15:30:30 <elliott> actually I am but I feel worse about it
15:30:36 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Apple3.14
15:31:00 <elliott> actually it's painful to read me being mean to people
15:31:16 <boily> mnoqy: what. the. fungot. is. that.
15:32:44 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unusable
15:34:21 * boily runs far, far away “I AM SANE! I AM SAAAAAAAANE!”
15:36:40 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/6ix this language (with variations on syntax) seems to be quite popular
15:37:12 <JWinslow23> OK, I could not possibly implement the Q command, so instead, I made a Hello, World! program.
15:37:28 <JWinslow23> e : [?'!>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-&]>
15:42:53 <nooodl_> i have an esolang idea... "inspiration"...
15:44:09 <boily> oh, sexy esolanging action!
15:44:30 <nooodl_> i'll just implement it. i think it might be boring, but i have to write it down and do some stuff in it first.
15:44:50 <JWinslow23> Just make the esolang page, and I'll make examples.
15:45:03 <JWinslow23> Just go! Run as fast as your little CPU can carry you!
15:45:54 <Bike> wow, 6ix is even more boring than a brainfuck derivative, impressive
15:46:34 <boily> there should be a language so abstrusely boring for the records. something like a sort of “Able Line” of Esolangs.
15:47:01 <Bike> "I can't respond to this until you tell me if you've misplaced the '?'s." i like this guy
15:47:54 <Bike> boily: honestly i'm ok with sticking with http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
15:48:21 <boily> Bike: oh. in that case, my wish is fullfilled.
15:48:39 <HackEgo> Thanks, oklofok. Thoklofok.
15:49:43 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
15:49:43 <Bike> i actually have two ideas for esolangs right now, which is a first, but it'll be a while before i can write them up adequately
15:49:51 <elliott> Bike: a first and second, surely
15:49:58 <JWinslow23> Just go! Run as fast as your little CPU can carry you!
15:50:08 <Bike> no it's the first time i've had two ideas!!
15:50:12 <JWinslow23> Sorry to quote myself, but I'm excited.
15:50:17 <Bike> what are you excited about
15:50:45 <Bike> well neither of them can really run on proper CPUs so uh sorry
15:51:19 <JWinslow23> What about nooodl_'s idea, "inspiration"?
15:51:30 <Bike> one involves real numbers and the other would technically need a dedicated physics simulator i suppose
15:51:44 <Bike> what's inspiration
15:52:50 <JWinslow23> To quote nooodl_, "i have an esolang idea... inspiration..."
15:53:44 <JWinslow23> I can make something that looks like a poem...
15:55:04 <JWinslow23> I have to go. I only got a few hours for lunch.
15:55:19 <JWinslow23> You need to get the pages on esolangs.org, though!
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15:55:41 <Bike> i don't even know how to deal with enthusiasm
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15:56:35 <nooodl_> wow i actually don't know how i should properly handle reading both code and input
15:56:38 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
15:57:15 <nooodl> read a code file from a command line argument and input from stdin i guess
15:59:15 <Bike> ^bf ,[.,]!liek thse
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16:33:50 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/WgkDbwNiGLAgVkQgWt1D/
16:34:09 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/6VJTQXq9diM71mx3IQ4N/ hello world
16:34:28 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/XqnBhVRiUArmBdZzNFT7/ a loop that prints the lowercase alphabet
16:36:15 <nooodl> i have no idea what this is capable of but writing anything in it is really annoying!
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16:37:37 <nooodl> oh those should be code[y][x] in the command descriptions, of course
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16:55:20 <fizzie> It seems quite capable.
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16:58:44 <fizzie> The kind of thing one writes a brainfuck translation to.
16:59:19 <boily> there should be an unbrainfuckable language.
17:06:51 <mroman> long time no see you too
17:07:01 <mroman> I can't even remember if i've ever seen you at all.
17:07:44 <boily> probably. I managed to compile the language you were working on on my machine.
17:09:20 <mroman> it requires a bunchload of haskell packages :)
17:09:58 <boily> that I know, you vile dependenter!
17:10:16 <mroman> a lot of those are for statistics functions I think
17:10:44 <boily> (according to the Fizzian Graphs, we overlapped in Summer 2012 and February 2013)
17:10:58 <mroman> and haskeline mtl and digits
17:11:14 <boily> web-encodings were hairy to get online, iirc.
17:11:23 <mroman> it's now deprecated :)
17:12:00 <fizzie> nooodl: http://sprunge.us/iSXR there's an (untested) translation from brainfuck to that.
17:12:16 <FireFly> Where are these fizzian graphs located?
17:12:27 <fizzie> FireFly: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/
17:12:35 <fizzie> (Which reminds me, should update them.)
17:13:27 <boily> “Fizzian Graph”... doesn't it sound like the title of a thriller?
17:15:44 <mroman> burlesque has gotten quite messy
17:15:50 <mroman> and still too many features are missing
17:16:14 <FireFly> http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/fig/charfreq_z_20y.png mhm
17:16:22 <mroman> that's still too long for my taste
17:16:38 <fizzie> FireFly: 2005 was well-known as the year of the z.
17:16:44 <HackEgo> olist (926): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
17:17:20 <nooodl> http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_presence.html who do i kill to get on this list
17:17:49 <mroman> with the newest version it's wd{:ri}m[f:sp
17:17:54 <zzo38> Does include uppercase "Z", and does it count multiples if there is multiple "z" in one message?
17:17:56 <boily> nooodl: you need to get a quote homologated in the PDF.
17:18:36 <zzo38> Is source-codes of this quotes PDF still available all the time?
17:18:55 <boily> zzo38: it is. private github repo :D
17:19:06 <FireFly> fizzie: there should probably be a terms graph for 'hth'
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17:19:25 <nooodl> boily: why is the repo private? (admittedly, i feel cool about being part of the cool club)
17:19:32 <fizzie> zzo38: It does include uppercase "Z", and it does count multiples. (In other words, it's (total amount of Z's)/(total amount of characters).)
17:19:34 <Bike> elliott's some kinda fucked up cave
17:19:54 <nooodl> (the Clubbe of Secret Wisdomme \LaTeX{})
17:19:57 <fizzie> FireFly: It wasn't really such a hot topic when the graphs were first made, but that's certainly true.
17:20:01 <boily> nooodl: because I can.
17:20:08 <mroman> also I couldn't convince many people to golf in it on golf.shinh.org :(
17:20:23 <elliott> Bike: I like how I stopped sleeping sometime in 2009 for a bit
17:20:58 <boily> zzo38: packaging the source for you.
17:21:29 <zzo38> boily: Do you have raw links for source files so that someone knowing the URL can check for updates?
17:21:59 <Bike> elliott: inorite
17:22:15 <zzo38> (That way it is not necessary to do it manually)
17:23:30 <elliott> not even I can manage that kind of slant
17:23:44 <boily> zzo38: well, I'd say the github repo is your best source. it has update times and stuff and commits.
17:24:16 <boily> zzo38: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/the-pdf.tar.bz2
17:24:39 <zzo38> I don't have access to private github repo though
17:25:17 <boily> zzo38: I'd very much like to add you, but you don't seem to exist. it's very Canadian of you, but pour les besoins de la cause, you'll have to materialise an account.
17:26:09 <zzo38> Well, I don't have any nor intend to add some; GitHub always runs very slowly and sometimes crashes so I don't use it.
17:26:48 <boily> mroman: il semblerait que je suis le francophone résident du channel. (d'ailleurs il faut que je convainque Roujo de revenir)
17:27:28 <boily> Koen aussi parle français, y'a Taneb qui nie parler français, d'autres qui font des horreurs avec google translate plutôt cocasses (I'm looking at you oerjan).
17:27:34 <mroman> I haven't spoken french in like 6 years
17:27:41 <mroman> I barely remembery anything.
17:27:51 <boily> at least you conjugate your verbs :D
17:27:57 <mroman> I studied it for 8 years
17:29:29 <mroman> on doit conjuguer les verbes.
17:29:42 <boily> don't you worry. French is a drug in which it is very easy to relapse.
17:29:55 <boily> je suis, tu es, il est, nous sommes, vous êtes, ils sont...
17:30:17 <mroman> conjugation isn't really the problem
17:30:26 <mroman> you just learn the few regular ones
17:30:30 <mroman> learn a few irregular ones
17:30:38 <mroman> and assume everything you don't know is in fact regular :)
17:31:18 <mroman> maybe I should start learning vocabulary again
17:31:33 <mroman> but currently I have to learn spanish
17:31:57 <boily> dommage is masculin.
17:32:29 <mroman> and my terminal fucks up unicode again
17:33:02 <mroman> that oughta be correct
17:33:35 <boily> euh... attends un peu pour celle-là...
17:33:47 <boily> «je suis en train de rire», peut-être?
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17:34:27 <boily> what is your original intended sentence?
17:35:06 <boily> (I found that the most important thing to say when learning a language is “I forgot”. well, second most important after “One pint, please”)
17:35:09 <mroman> is je suis rigolé past?
17:35:34 <mroman> and I forgot the distinction between parfait and imparfait
17:35:43 <boily> it means “I laughed”.
17:35:46 <mroman> and the conjugation of imparfait anyway
17:36:09 <boily> imparfait in French is a misnomer. it's used for just about anything except what should be true imparfait.
17:36:10 <mroman> tengo que estudiar mucho.
17:36:30 <boily> pienso que el español es más facíl que el frances.
17:36:42 <mroman> The way I remember it imparfait describes past conditions
17:36:48 <boily> but, as you said, I forgot just about everything from Spanish.
17:36:53 <mroman> and parfait describes action.
17:36:57 <boily> «Il faisait froid».
17:37:10 <mroman> Il faisait trés froid cette nuite!
17:37:19 <boily> oooooh, un «nuite»!
17:37:25 <boily> spoken like a True Quebecker!
17:37:50 <boily> a mispronunciation dating to 17th Century French.
17:37:56 <boily> nuitte, frette, icitte, litte...
17:38:09 <boily> (night, cold, here, bed)
17:41:05 <mroman> you really say icitte?
17:41:46 <mroman> My ultimate goal is to speak 4 languages
17:42:01 <mroman> German, French, Spanish, English
17:42:12 <mroman> and Swiss German, as it is my native language :)
17:42:51 <Gregor> I see you've listed the language in order of increasing utility.
17:43:33 <mroman> that's why I said swiss german last
17:43:37 <mroman> because it's most useful.
17:44:14 <mroman> la choose le plus utile
17:44:20 <mroman> or however comparision were done again in french
17:44:34 <Bike> i thought the germans were mutually intelligible.
17:45:20 <mroman> what's that supposed to mean?
17:45:31 <mroman> all germans understeand each other?
17:45:38 <Bike> that a german speaker from switzerland could understand one from germany.
17:46:02 <mroman> unless they speak the standard german
17:46:28 <mroman> even all german speakers of switzerland don't understand each other
17:46:47 <mroman> some dialects are just too different
17:47:14 <mroman> in some regions you just switch to the most common variation of swiss german to communicate
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17:47:48 <mroman> due to modernization and big cities those dialects intermix to new dialects
17:47:53 <mroman> which are much closer together
17:51:03 <mroman> and the ones that can't be understood by everyone are slowly mourir
17:51:24 <mroman> descending into the state of not being spoken anymore
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17:53:57 <boily> aaarughghgh! sudden meetings!
17:54:57 <zzo38> Why did you include my client address in the quotation of the quit message even though not included in the other messages? Would it be more clear just include the address once in the appendix or something like that?
17:55:24 <boily> zzo38: that's how it was logged in the `quotes. I can change it for your convenience.
17:55:53 <zzo38> I don't intend you to change it only for my convenience; I was simply asking why it is logged like that in HackEgo.
17:56:17 <zzo38> It doesn't seem the best way to do it as far as I am concerned. If you disagree you can say so of course.
17:56:19 <boily> if things are as they are, it's because they were so.
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17:56:34 <boily> that, and I'm one lazy bum.
17:56:42 <fizzie> Is it possible to find out what kind of things you can stream from, say, Netflix, without making an account?
17:56:57 <fizzie> I know they've got some kind of a "first month is free" thing, but still.
18:03:51 <nooodl> oerjan's people_presence chart kinda looks like it bifurcates in 2011
18:04:11 -!- _grotr has joined.
18:04:22 <HackEgo> _grotr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:05:13 <nooodl> <boily> dommage is masculin.
18:05:33 <boily> nooodl: oui? et? puis? que?
18:06:21 <nooodl> les genres et moi... ça ne marche pas
18:07:10 <boily> à moins d'être né dans un milieu francophone, c'est à peu près certain que le monde vont faire des erreurs de genre.
18:08:22 <boily> anecdote: les gens de Montréal disent «le bus» (/lə.bʌs/), et à Québec c'est «la bus» (/la.bys/).
18:10:45 <nooodl> ouais, en néerlandais le genre est aussi un bon «shibboleth». les deux articles sont «de» et «het» mais les non-néerlandophones ont l'air de dire «de» partout
18:12:09 <boily> hm. il faudrait que j'apprenne le néerlandais. le plus proche que j'ai été était la fois où on était en vacances en famille à Aruba.
18:12:47 <boily> mais ça devra patienter. dans l'ordre, il faut que je me remette au japonais, que j'apprenne des bases de mandarin et de cantonnais, faire un détour par l'estonien, puis après ça on verra bin.
18:15:03 <nooodl> il paraît que c'est la galère, apprendre le néerlandais!
18:16:29 <zzo38> Maybe we should add some wisdom files for other esolangs too.
18:19:48 <nooodl> speaking of: a map of genders for countries in russian http://i.imgur.com/rEHizAI.png
18:20:41 <boily> the French version → http://i.imgur.com/PTZjh8V.jpg
18:21:16 <Taneb> I think a lot of the ones that are plural in Russian are plural in English too?
18:21:38 <Taneb> United States, United Arab Emirates, the Philipines?
18:21:41 <boily> zzo38: how? it sounds interesting.
18:22:09 <nooodl> i think zzo38 means `learn befunge (blah blah blah)
18:22:56 <nooodl> anyway: wow. what are all of these article-less countries
18:22:56 <boily> hmm... that'd deserve a split with its own chapter...
18:23:25 <zzo38> Yes I mean add `learn befunge and whatever other esolangs they have
18:23:27 <boily> we don't say «La Cuba», just «Cuba».
18:23:45 <boily> what languages are there already?
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18:23:57 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
18:24:24 <fizzie> fungot: Write an entry for Befunge, please.
18:24:24 <fungot> fizzie: i prefer to get in...
18:24:29 <fungot> fizzie: but i'll wait 10 years and hopefully be able to contact you fnord from the for loop
18:24:31 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
18:24:38 <fizzie> fungot: You're *already* in.
18:24:39 <fungot> fizzie: i'm just a beginner :) :) :) :)
18:24:56 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
18:25:02 <boily> ↑ that one was fun. :D
18:25:36 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
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18:28:16 <FireFly> But how many points are said territories worth?!
18:29:47 <boily> ~duck Taneb's worth
18:33:49 <boily> Taneb: how many points are you worth? how tall is imhotep? what is the capital of Canada?
18:34:41 <Taneb> 17, 6 foot 8, Yellowknife
18:35:31 <boily> that may be the most creative answer I have seen about Canada's capital...
18:36:17 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think is the capital of Canada?
18:36:17 <fungot> FireFly: you can kill yourself easily :) the two rules are pretty simple themselves
18:36:36 <FireFly> I think fungot thought I was asking about Go instead
18:36:36 <fungot> FireFly: hmmmm. when i did it
18:36:42 <olsner> oh, "Yellowknife is the capital and largest city of [...] Canada."
18:36:56 <olsner> I don't think I knew that before
18:36:57 <zzo38> And then you have other stuff in the `? too, not only esolangs you could make up a lot of stuff including Imakuni?'s pokemon cards (which makes your own active pokemon card confused), and the Dungeons&Dragons
18:37:39 <FireFly> zzo38: I think I've asked you before, but I don't remember the answer, so: have you played Pokémon Card GB2?
18:37:58 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes I have done
18:38:01 <boily> that “[...]” seems very evil. its aura emanates silenced and tortured paragraphs...
18:38:54 <FireFly> zzo38: oh, okay. I wish they'd do a sequel of it for the 3DS
18:39:03 <olsner> boily: thousands of informations of canada crying out in terror
18:39:34 <zzo38> I happen to like the old rules though; I think the new rules and cards damage the positional nature of the game. However, a thing I would like to see is Limited format play.
18:40:52 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.........
18:42:49 <olsner> my keyboard needs a bath :/
18:42:52 <zzo38> FireFly: Did you make up any other Pokemon card puzzle?
18:43:34 <zzo38> I would like to see, though. Have you seen my puzzle.5?
18:44:10 <FireFly> Oh, I agree about preferring older rules. I stopped playing the TCG around when the EX sets were first released
18:44:41 <FireFly> zzo38: where do I find puzzle.5?
18:44:48 <zzo38> Look at it now if you want see if you understand it. http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.5
18:45:59 <zzo38> I also wrote terminology.txt in the same directory
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18:47:58 <zzo38> I also mentioned different tie breaking rules which I prefer rather than the ordinary ones.
18:50:09 <zzo38> FireFly: I think your puzzle is economical. Mine tend not to be.
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18:51:16 <FireFly> I don't even remember my puzzle, haha
18:51:28 <zzo38> (Yours is puzzle.4 if you want to review it)
18:51:46 <zzo38> Can you figure out puzzle.5 yet?
18:53:49 <FireFly> I didn't really check it out yet, let me see
18:54:26 <fungot> olsner: i think i'm forgetting my japanese". fucking read what i've said about fnord i plan to ( fnord fnord) ( gcc version 3.3.3 ( suse linux)) 1
18:55:52 <nooodl> fucking read what i've said about fnord
18:56:05 <fizzie> fungot: You don't have to be so aggressive, dude.
18:56:05 <fungot> fizzie: i don't think that is an issue with my example code. the more projects try to emulate it or something like that
18:57:51 <zzo38> Do you like this game?
18:58:22 <FireFly> oh, hm, resistance against fighting
18:58:42 <zzo38> Yes, I put that in there on purpose.
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18:59:23 <FireFly> So the straightforward approach with using kabutops' first move on gengar is a no-go
18:59:31 <zzo38> (Also notice most of your own cards have the wrong energy; that is also on purpose.)
18:59:48 <zzo38> FireFly: Correct; it doesn't work. Try again.
19:06:12 <zzo38> Did you check all of the cards in hand?
19:06:46 <FireFly> Empty draw pile means I have to win this turn (or somehow put cards back in the draw pile), right?
19:06:48 <quintopia> the halting problem is solvable for FSMs and LBAs right?
19:07:28 <FreeFull> Clean doesn't seem to have a REPL
19:09:03 <boily> the halting problem is solvable for flying spaghetti monsters and logical block addressing???
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19:10:19 <boily> fungot: who or what do you believe in?
19:10:19 <fungot> boily: are you saying that there's something odd about the irc protocol
19:10:26 <fungot> boily: stop apologizing. that's just m- and m-, and yes.
19:10:36 <FireFly> zzo38: I think I'm too tired for this :P but I think it isn't possible to solve this turn, so you'd have to grab the maintenance and put two cards in the draw pile
19:10:52 <FireFly> whose order somehow is unimportant
19:11:20 <zzo38> FireFly: Do you want some other kind of hint?
19:11:25 <quintopia> there was no package for me at andover
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19:25:52 <boily> I still have the box.
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19:34:09 <quintopia> i won't get there for 2 more weeks, but then, you aren't going to send it by then either!
19:35:24 <quintopia> i have your thank you postcard already...
19:36:06 * boily is guilty, and has pictures of an anime character receiving words through his heart
19:36:51 <boily> quintopia: tonight. I'm printing your address and having it delivered.
19:37:40 <boily> shall I andover it now, or should I forward it to your home?
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19:38:56 <boily> oerjan: welp. I screwed up, and now quintopia is angry!
19:39:28 <quintopia> WHY WOULD I BE ANGRY???????!!!??!!???
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19:44:50 <oerjan> <boily> fungot: what has knäckebröd got to do with my computer problems? <-- let's just say eating knekkebrød close to a computer keyboard may not be optimal.
19:44:51 <fungot> oerjan: 2) session timeouts? :p ( heh, guess so. it's nothing like the fnord
19:45:21 <oerjan> i might get around to that part eventually, the logs are big today.
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20:00:26 <quintopia> oerjan: the halting problem is solvable for LBAs, right?
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20:00:37 <oerjan> <mnoqy> so i take it functions aren't values <-- that _does_ sound dysfunctional.
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20:01:09 <Taneb> The number of states they have is proportional to some function of the length of the program
20:01:20 <quintopia> so it occurs to me that something like "Super BILF" could actually have been implemented
20:01:42 <quintopia> if it had three outputs: 1) halts 2) loops 3) overflows memory
20:01:54 <oerjan> quintopia: yes. the space hierarchy theorem of complexity is basically proved by showing you can solve the halting problem for a machine with a bound on the space with a machine with a _slightly_ higher bound, proving that they are all distinct classes.
20:02:45 <oerjan> so linear can be solved by O(x^1.2), e.g. (or something like that, i don't quite recall how small the steps are.)
20:03:06 <quintopia> oerjan: and the proof looks like "simulate the machine and track its memory history, halt if it halts or repeats a state from its history"?
20:03:44 <oerjan> something like that. basically just modify the usual halting theorem proof, i think.
20:05:26 <oerjan> the usual halting problem proof is modified to prove the classes are distinct. i assume, it's been a while since i read this stuff.
20:06:02 <oerjan> and i'm not sure i literally read that proof, but this stuff is afaik "obvious if you know the principle".
20:15:13 <oerjan> <mnoqy> who remembers FURscript. who remembers Snack. <-- who could _forget_ snack.
20:15:45 <Taneb> That reminds me...
20:15:55 <Taneb> @ask ais523 How's Underlambda going?
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20:16:26 <Taneb> @tell Phantom_Hoover Remind me to send you the fortress
20:17:34 <oerjan> * boily runs far, far away “I AM SANE! I AM SAAAAAAAANE!”
20:17:39 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
20:18:10 <Taneb> You know, I've got commit access to the dreaded PDF
20:18:24 <Taneb> If I could think of anything evil to do, I'd do it
20:18:41 <Taneb> Maybe put nefarious referrals in it
20:18:57 <boily> nefarious? what kind of nefarious?
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20:24:18 <FireFly> @ask ais523 How's Feather going?
20:24:36 <Taneb> FireFly, Feather is already completed
20:24:54 <FireFly> did it retroactively complete itself?
20:25:10 <Taneb> It was the first ever programming language, first implemented in 1821
20:25:33 <olsner> why did it retroactivate itself into 1821 instead of now?
20:26:00 <Taneb> olsner, ais523 thought it'd be funny
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20:31:36 <fizzie> "p must be an inetger less than n"
20:34:00 <boily> let's define a point P, and call it Q.
20:39:30 <fizzie> I don't know what it is about radio, but there's something that makes it fancy. (Been listening to websdr again.)
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20:50:27 <Taneb> Wow, tomorrow I'll see people like Neil Mitchell and Phil Wadler
20:54:22 <kmc> original gangstas
20:57:00 <nooodl> fizzie: i saw your brainfuck-that thing translation. looked pretty neat!
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20:57:13 <kmc> "Users of the Paperclip gem are encouraged to upgrade to the latest version of Cocaine." https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ruby-security-ann/3XTGFbAJoTg
20:57:50 <kmc> reminds me of a folder I had back in my windows days "Alcohol 120% With Crack"
21:01:40 <Fiora> oh gosh, I remember that program back when I was a terrible pirate in high school I guess xD
21:02:34 <shachaf> fun fact: @yarr and @arr are two different commands with a different collection of replies
21:03:13 <FireFly> fun fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
21:03:21 <FireFly> There are lots of fun facts
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21:20:19 <kmc> does Linux have a syscall for bulk stat() of many files, I wonder
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21:25:10 <olsner> would that be worthwhile?
21:26:30 <kmc> well some programs (like git) do thousands of stats in a row, and the results should mostly be cached in the kernel
21:26:42 <kmc> so the system call overhead might be significant
21:26:45 <kmc> but i don't know really
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21:37:52 <olsner> for(int i = 0; i < 100000000; i++) syscall(__NR_getpid); takes 9s on my system (11 million syscalls/s?)
21:38:28 <olsner> with fstat(0, &st) instead it takes 15s
21:42:29 <olsner> stat("foo", &st) on a (constant) filename in the working directory took 37s
21:42:32 <olsner> on a longer path with a couple of directory components, 70s
21:45:18 <olsner> so file name lookup is slower than system calls? (fstat might be special though - file descriptors could have a direct pointer to their stat data for example)
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21:47:24 <shachaf> do you know about Elias-Fano encoding
21:48:16 <Fiora> isn't file name lookup a system call? so like, it's a system call + some other things
21:49:30 <kmc> olsner: ~100 ns for a syscall is about in line with what I've heard, yeah
21:49:34 <kmc> SYSCALL instruction is pretty damn fast
21:50:18 <olsner> Fiora: no, system calls usually take paths... and besides actually opening a file (which requires read access at least), there's no "resolved file name object" thingy
21:50:28 <kmc> shachaf: have you seen http://semipublic.comp-arch.net/wiki/SYSENTER/SYSEXIT_vs._SYSCALL/SYSRET
21:50:58 <fizzie> olsner's for loop test takes 3.716s real time (0.452s user, 3.256s sys) here.
21:51:17 <kmc> well a "resolved file name object" would just be a file descriptor/description yeah?
21:51:38 <kmc> and there tend to be calls for those to e.g. fstat(), fchdir()
21:51:48 <kmc> mk_dire_rat()
21:52:05 <shachaf> Well, readdir() or similar doesn't give you a file descriptor.
21:52:50 <Fiora> olsner: so like, looking up a file name doesn't go to the kernel?
21:53:24 <shachaf> Looking up a file name in what?
21:53:40 <fizzie> Fiora: Names are not looked up separately, is I think the point here.
21:54:00 <fizzie> (Except for the aforementioned file-descriptor-taking syscalls.)
21:56:01 <fizzie> I'm sure you could systemtap-or-something out how much of the time spent inside a single syscall is taken by name-lookup-related operations, but it's still happening inside the call.
21:56:55 <fizzie> (The syscall underlying readdir (getdents) is, incidentally, a bit more bulk-style interface, since it takes a struct linux_dirent * and a count, and returns multiple entries at one go.)
21:59:30 <fizzie> (And the dirent structure includes a type field for the block device/character device/directory/fifo/socket/symlink/file distinction, which I suppose could have been put there to cut down the number of stat calls necessary.)
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22:12:28 <olsner> fizzie: why are syscalls 3x faster for you?
22:12:39 <olsner> (fwiw I have a http://ark.intel.com/products/33923/)
22:13:52 <Fiora> maybe somethingwith like, XSAVE and XSAVEOPT?
22:19:08 <fizzie> olsner: I have no idea. (And a http://ark.intel.com/products/75047/)
22:21:07 <fizzie> I'd test on the workstation at work too, but it's got 400 CPU% of MATLAB whirring, and I'm afraid that'd skew the result somehow.
22:21:10 <Fiora> XSAVEOPT is only on sany bridge and ltaer I think? maybe that has something to do with it
22:21:30 <Fiora> *sandy bridge and later
22:22:31 <Fiora> it's like, a thing that only saves the parts of the processor state that have been used?
22:22:35 <fizzie> Zany Bridge, Intel's rehash for clowns.
22:23:29 <olsner> fizzie: that's nice and newer, maybe they optimalized something
22:27:20 <Bike> current matlab joke: mat=ones(s1,s2); [~,j] = find(mat==1); for i=i:length(j): ...code that doesn't touch j but assigns to mat(:, i) every iteration... end
22:29:25 <olsner> afaik, linux does the lazy saving and restoring of floating point registers so I think it shouldn't be a big part of the syscall overhead
22:29:54 <olsner> though it might've changed recently (there was some discussion about dumping it, since it causes an extra interrupt when you do need to save/restore them)
22:30:00 <Fiora> does that work for like, SSE/AVX registers though?
22:30:09 <Fiora> I don't know if there's a way for the OS to know whether they've been changed
22:30:44 <kmc> i think they count as touching floating point
22:31:06 <Bike> and it branches twice every iteration to check how far in the iteration it is because of course it does
22:31:08 <Fiora> like I mean is there a way for the kernel to know if an SSE register was changed by user code...?
22:31:14 <fizzie> Bike: That ones-and-find-==1 idiom is kind of strange.
22:31:14 <olsner> when switching process you set a flag that disallows usage of fpu/sse/avx/etc registers, then when the new process tries to use them you get an interrupt
22:31:49 <Bike> fizzie: yeah so's the part where it writes m×n columns of an n column matrix.
22:32:01 <Bike> is matlab just suppressing all those bad accesses
22:32:05 <Fiora> http://lwn.net/Articles/391972/ is this related?
22:32:13 <Bike> because, like, i'm not cool enough to know about them.
22:32:44 <fizzie> Bike: It should complain. I guess there mst be Circumstances.
22:33:07 <Bike> well i replaced it with for i=i:s2 and i don't see any difference.
22:33:34 <fizzie> You can extend a matrix silently.
22:33:44 <Bike> it's not extending though, it's just ugh
22:34:29 <fizzie> (It's a very slow thing to not preallocate, though.)
22:34:48 <Bike> yeah i'm gonna be fixing up some preallocations later. apparently this isn't extending it though.
22:35:52 <Bike> which is... mysterious, since it sure looks like it ought to be doing so.
22:36:13 <Bike> oh, no, i see. it works because of the branching.
22:36:42 <Bike> so, it does m×n iterations, but past n it so happens that there's never an assignment to mat(:, i).
22:36:53 <Bike> so i guess it can just spin that whole time. cool
22:40:07 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> anecdote: les gens de Montréal disent «le bus» (/lə.bʌs/), et à Québec c'est «la bus» (/la.bys/). <-- did you know trondheim is the only [citation needed] city in norway where the word "bil" (en:car) is feminine.
22:46:44 <olsner> Fiora: it gets a bit interesting on multiprocessor machines though - you could find cpu0 trying to resume a thread whose fpu state is on cpu1 (and was never saved to memory)
22:46:52 <oerjan> @tell boily also it's _only_ in the city, not the rest of the region.
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22:56:30 <Fiora> olsner: huh, how does that work?
22:57:01 <olsner> you mean how to work around it, or how the situation happens?
22:58:13 <Fiora> like, how they work around it?
22:58:26 <Fiora> I thought the fpu states were saved in memory with xsave or something (?)
23:00:18 <olsner> it seems that linux originally just disabled the lazy fpu state thing for SMP, now they might send an interrupt to the processor it needs fpu state from
23:08:34 <oerjan> <olsner> my keyboard needs a bath :/ <-- http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/?comic=1721
23:09:12 <oerjan> (no there's not supposed to be a picture.)
23:09:54 <olsner> is the page broken or is there's really not supposed to be a picture?
23:11:08 <oerjan> there's really not supposed to be a picture.
23:13:41 <FireFly> http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php now I'm sad
23:14:10 <oerjan> FireFly: i recommend reloading.
23:14:58 <olsner> I'm confused and somewhat upset by this page
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23:15:49 <fizzie> I'm confused that you're confused about it; it's not like the "comic" has not been discussed here previously.
23:16:02 <olsner> I haven't seen it before
23:16:54 <Bike> i've never seen it before either.
23:17:21 <fizzie> Didn't I even do some plots about a weird random number generation details for the about page, or something?
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23:18:02 <oerjan> hm quite possible. i'm sure we tried to discover all the variations.
23:18:27 <fizzie> And then I asked on the forums, and got some sort of a response.
23:18:32 <fizzie> It was time-related, I think.
23:18:41 <fizzie> And perhaps a non-uniform distribution.
23:19:12 <fizzie> (My sprunge pastes about it have died, though.)
23:19:27 <FireFly> I guess it was completely coincidental then that the first thing I got on the about page was "On behalf of [list of companies] all images on this website has been taken down" then
23:19:42 <zzo38> Anyone figure out the puzzle.5 yet? I asked earler but have to leave so now I am elsewlere so could not answer completely
23:19:50 <Bike> FireFly: i got the same one, excitingly enough.
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23:20:55 <oerjan> FireFly: that one is itself inspired by http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1526.html
23:21:17 <oerjan> (you might note the date on that.)
23:21:25 <fizzie> I put a 10 second interval in my getter script, and got an almost repeating sequence out of the 11 different variants, because the randomness was based on the second-resolution timestamp, is I think what happened.
23:23:06 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/mezza.png -- frequencies of the 11 different variant.
23:23:57 <Bike> now... enhance
23:24:11 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/mezzoseq.png -- and that's the sequence of variants.
23:24:26 <fizzie> (Permuted appropriately.)
23:26:18 <fizzie> Okay, I caught up in the log. The selection "algorithm" turned out to be "time()%11", and the hypothesis for uneven distribution was that... actually, never mind, it's not all that interesting.
23:26:44 <fizzie> The point, however, was that everyone should've noticed this was going on, because it was spread out over several days.
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23:27:15 <elliott> I want to know the h ypothesis.
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23:30:36 <fizzie> I had my sampling done with a "while true; do fetch; sleep 10; done" loop, and some variants of the page were larger than others so therefore had higher likelihood of causing a longer-than-appropriate delay (and consequently a discontinuity in the otherwise ordered sequence of variants received), which skewed the distribution.
23:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell Taneb remind me to remind you to remind you to give me the fortress when i'm online
23:34:47 <lambdabot> *** "hops" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:34:51 <lambdabot> n 1: twining perennials having cordate leaves and flowers
23:34:53 <lambdabot> arranged in conelike spikes; the dried flowers of this
23:34:55 <lambdabot> plant are used in brewing to add the characteristic bitter
23:34:57 <lambdabot> taste to beer [syn: {hop}, {hops}]
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00:19:47 <Sgeo> I kind of like the idea of having both and? and $and?
00:24:29 <Sgeo> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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00:26:09 <kmc> the latter short-circuits and the former does not?
00:26:43 <Sgeo> I thought you were the Kernel person here
00:27:05 <Sgeo> Ok, that came out kind of mean, sorry
00:28:15 <Sgeo> I see a strong similarity between eval in Kernel and uplevel in Tcl
00:28:48 <Sgeo> uplevel in Tcl lets you eval in the immediately 'above' scope, which I gather eval'ing using the passed-in environment in an operative also does?
00:37:06 <kmc> no it's fine
00:37:10 <kmc> i don't know that much about kernel though
00:37:11 <kmc> never used it
00:37:14 <kmc> just read some of the papers
00:38:28 <Sgeo> You can't pass around the uplevel 1 in Tcl though, and uplevel is too powerful, it lets you go up more than one scope
00:40:34 <kmc> I think CPython also lets you do that
00:41:44 <Sgeo> "Thus, not specifying the order of argument evaluation is key to the expressiveness
00:41:44 <Sgeo> of the language. "
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00:46:28 <kmc> that is confusing
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00:57:39 <Sgeo> ". Moreover, by the same reasoning, this additional information can be shared with the user of the Kernel system, as long as it remains unavailable to the program."
00:57:44 <Sgeo> What is this, the anti-Smalltalk?
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01:11:53 <kmc> i learned about http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/rtld-audit.7.html today
01:11:54 <kmc> seems p. fun
01:13:07 <kmc> it lets you hook almost everything the dynamic linker does, and therefore hook any dynamically linked functions too
01:13:12 <kmc> so you can use it for a souped up ltrace (http://people.redhat.com/jolsa/latrace/index.shtml)
01:15:32 <Sgeo> ... this completely solves the problem I had with Kernel not being Tcl-like enough for my tastes.
01:15:58 <Sgeo> Just... wrapping the operative. Means I can make the operative see what I want it to see
01:16:28 <elliott> couldn't you also just... use eval
01:17:04 <Sgeo> Yeah, but that seems like it would be ... ugly somehow.
01:19:03 <kmc> so you hide the eval inside the body of a vau
01:19:35 <kmc> users of the paperclip gem are encouraged to upgrade to the latest version of cocaine
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01:36:06 <Sgeo> "It is almost possible to simulate the behavior of type applicative using only operatives,
01:36:06 <Sgeo> thus bypassing wrap and unwrap altogether"
01:36:12 <Sgeo> (almost is italicised)
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01:36:34 <Sgeo> I vaguely remember mocking Kernel for the distinction once
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01:36:55 <kmc> i wrote about that
01:36:57 <kmc> in my blog post
01:37:36 <Sgeo> I should read that post more thoroughly
01:37:49 <Sgeo> But reading Kernel spec currently
01:55:47 <Sgeo> "If lists is empty, or if all of its elements are not lists of the
01:55:47 <Sgeo> same length, an error is signaled."
01:56:09 <Sgeo> There's an argument for allowing "useless" cases... makes things easier on code-writing code
01:58:32 <Sgeo> if no list arguments are provided, there is no way to choose a result length that will be
01:58:32 <Sgeo> compatible with all nontrivial cases: the result length would have to be simultaneously
01:58:32 <Sgeo> equal to every nonnegative integer, and to positive infinity as well. "
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02:37:26 <Sgeo> With Kernel, macro-like things generally have two environments in play, although I guess they can be given more
02:37:57 <Sgeo> With syntax-case used procedurally, there are potentially a lot of environments in play, if the input to syntax-case has been built up from different sources
02:38:07 <Sgeo> With syntax-rules, how many environments are in play? Just 2?
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02:42:45 <Sgeo> Is Kernel using list the same way it's often used in Tcl?
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03:02:02 <Sgeo> Kernel addresses a problem I had with Picolisp. Not sure if I prefer the way Kernel addresses it, but it does address it
03:02:39 <Sgeo> Namely: Whether functions that take symbols should evaluate their arguments (thus requiring the symbols to be quoted) or not
03:02:53 <Sgeo> Picolisp sometimes has functions for both cases
03:03:02 <Sgeo> Kernel is against the idea of encouraging programmers to quote symbols
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03:31:40 <Sgeo> make-keyed-dynamic-variable binder thing uses a fresh dynamic environment
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03:46:41 <Bike> uplevel in Tcl lets you eval in the immediately 'above' scope, which I gather eval'ing using the passed-in environment in an operative also does? <-- yeah, in some of my little kernel code i defined stuff in the calling environment to make a defclassy thing
03:48:18 <Bike> Sgeo: and re argument evaluation iirc that's because it lets you do amb sorta crap
03:48:24 <Bike> also good for optimization occasionally
03:49:01 <Sgeo> Are there actually implementations of Kernel?
03:49:16 <Bike> at least a dozen
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03:49:26 <Bike> i mean they're mostly crap, but writing a lisp is damn easy
03:49:47 <Bike> as for anti-smalltalk, yeah, i think the author's attitude there is kind of silly
03:49:57 <Bike> bla bla weird language bla pointless bike crap
03:51:57 <Sgeo> Wonder if I could make a Racket language where the already existing Racket macros become first-class
03:52:28 <Bike> like, (wrap $vau) as you mentioned is nice, but you have to do (eval (cons (wrap $vau) ...) env) to make a closure in env which is imo kind of idiotic
03:54:23 <Sgeo> I have yet to give anywhere near sufficient thought to comparing Kernel with Rebol
03:55:41 <Bike> that sounds boring. now if you'll excuse me i need to read "Achilles and the tortoise climbing up the hyperarithmetical hierarchy"
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04:03:12 <kmc> achilles and the tortoise rob a liquor store
04:06:03 <Sgeo> I have some ideas on a ... not quite Kernel-like, but Kernel-inspired Racket language.
04:06:22 <Bike> is that like a CSI episode inspired by the headlines
04:07:04 <Sgeo> Rather than interpreting some Kernel-like language, I can redefine references to macros to output some kind of wrapped reference to the function behind the macro, and redefine function application to check for this
04:27:29 <Bike> http://shadow-file.blogspot.com/2013/10/complete-persistent-compromise-of.html haha jesus
04:35:10 <Sgeo> So, any responsible disclosure?
04:35:17 <Sgeo> Was Netgear ever contacted?
04:35:25 <Sgeo> Although, not sure what they really could do to fix it
04:35:34 <Sgeo> I mean, can't force everyone to update firmware, can you?
04:35:40 <Bike> "never make such a ridiculous system again"
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04:42:54 <kmc> "Rust's grammar is defined over Unicode codepoints, each conventionally denoted U+XXXX, for 4 or more hexadecimal digits X" i like that they leave open the possibility of using astral plane characters in the language syntax
04:43:14 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixQE496Pcn8
04:56:06 <shachaf> oh when you say you like it you mean that you like it?
04:58:47 <shachaf> help the quotes are too much for me
04:59:21 <kmc> ````````````````````````````````
04:59:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ```````````````````````````````: not found
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05:02:45 <shachaf> ´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´
05:03:08 <shachaf> kmc: is that 32 by accident or due to repeated doubling
05:03:41 <kmc> it's due to a mild compulsion to do repetitive actions a power of two times
05:04:35 <shachaf> did you generate it via repeated ^W ^Y ^Y
05:05:53 <shachaf> did you know you can make irssi use lots of memory by doing that enough times
05:05:57 <kmc> i suspected as much
05:06:35 <kmc> 112112311211234112112311211234511211231121123411211231121123456112112311211234112112311211234511211231121123411211231121123456
05:07:30 <shachaf> hm: 12311211234112112311211234511211231121123411211231121123456112112311211234112112311211234511211231121123411211231121123456
05:07:58 <shachaf> "oopse" i forgot that 7 > 3
05:08:00 <kmc> 01101001100101101001011001101001
05:08:32 <ion> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ (f =<<) . ('0':)
05:08:34 <lambdabot> "01011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001...
05:09:33 <ion> WHOA, DUDE, you can make Irssi use lots of memory by adding lots of characters to the input bar? No way.
05:09:47 <kmc> hm so the Thue-Morse sequence is the fixed point of the Manchester code?
05:10:11 <Bike> i too enjoy restating facts i have just learned in a sarcastic fashion
05:13:56 <kmc> Bike: did you know that there are heterotrophic plants which parasitize mushrooms
05:13:59 <kmc> like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotropa_uniflora
05:14:04 <kmc> it's white, doesn't produce chlorophyll
05:14:33 <Bike> yeah i did, they rule
05:14:53 <Bike> i mean, not literally, since they're just parasites and don't control the shrooms or anything, but,
05:15:20 <Bike> my bio class put a lot of emphasis on mycorrhiza. nice to know that whole "hey we found this is kind of essential" has filtered down to me
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05:19:12 <Bike> i guess arbuscular mycorrhiza isn't as exciting though.
05:31:21 <Sgeo> "In vau3, some careful thinking will be
05:31:22 <Sgeo> needed to make sure that operatives can't be returned from an applicative."
05:32:02 <Sgeo> https://github.com/tonyg/js-vau/blob/master/TODO
05:33:14 <Bike> Sgeo: just checking here it's not just me that thinks using applicatives as security is kind of stupid
05:33:51 <Sgeo> I'm more disturbed by the thought of ceasing to treat operatives as first-class when that's the primary interesting thing
05:34:15 <Sgeo> I have no idea what is meant by using applicatives for capabilities, so can't comment on that aspect.
05:34:28 <Bike> well is that really supposed to be read as, make sure a compound operative will never return an applicative?
05:34:38 <Bike> because i mean, if so, i'd just disregard that whole implementation cos they don't know shit
05:35:46 <kmc> pfffft who needs js-vau just compile guile with emscripten and then run qoppa in it
05:35:59 <Sgeo> tonyg has some interesting other work
05:36:02 <Sgeo> Not related to Kernel
05:36:18 <shachaf> i heard that being outside in the sun is sinful, but i'm just going to disregard that sin cos tan
05:36:28 <Bike> kmc's got a point here,
05:36:38 <mnoqy> shachaf's got a good point here
05:36:46 <kmc> mnoqy has the best point here
05:38:01 <Bike> i think i need a photo of erdős, wide-eyed
05:38:39 <kmc> cocoa-coated co-cones
05:39:09 <Bike> are conic sections co-cones?
05:40:05 <shachaf> Bike: that is not serious question correct
05:40:32 <mnoqy> cocone is a wird word. i think i prefer "cone from" and "cone to" or whatever they were.
05:40:47 <Bike> it's serious in that i'm kind of wondering what a co-cone would be, not serious in that i don't actually think conic sections would be the answer
05:40:48 <shachaf> cones are weird "does such a simple thing even deserve a word"
05:41:11 <kmc> http://mushroomobserver.org/image/show_image/378480?obs=149510&q=1ZqL1
05:41:26 <shachaf> Bike: a cocone is just a natural transformation to a constant functor hth
05:41:37 <Bike> what the fuck does that have to do with cones
05:41:47 <shachaf> a cone is just a natural transformation from a constant functor
05:41:57 <Bike> starting to think i only learn math out of sheer spite for category theory
05:41:59 <mnoqy> it looks like a cone if you draw a picture and squint at it hard enough
05:42:21 <shachaf> what mnoqy said is the real answer
05:42:25 <mnoqy> be sure to draw the picture in such a way that it looks like a cone
05:42:36 <shachaf> because you draw a dot and then you draw a bunch of arrows from that dot to a bunch of other dots
05:42:45 <kmc> that's all of category theory
05:42:50 <mnoqy> sometimes the other dots even have arrows between them!
05:42:53 <Bike> arrows? or spite?
05:43:07 <shachaf> kmc: defining things via universal properties is p. neat do you know how that works
05:43:16 <kmc> a professor told me that computer science is the study of boxes and arrows so I guess it's not surprising that category theory is useful in CS
05:43:32 <shachaf> like the categorical definition of p. much anything such as a product
05:43:33 <mnoqy> who needs boxes when you have even more arrows
05:44:22 <mnoqy> draw a box out of arrows. experience the joy
05:44:26 <shachaf> now define ∞ categories using only arrows
05:44:46 <shachaf> or whatever those end up being i don't even know :'(
05:45:14 <kmc> is pointless topology where you make boxes out of arrows
05:45:35 <Bike> oh, great, thanks for reminding me i was going to read analysis situs -_-
05:45:55 <Bike> the intro going on about all the errors and how he thought his connjecture was trivial is pretty nice
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05:56:51 <Sgeo> I get it! It's so beautiful! The connection between Kernel, Racket, Tcl, and Rebol
05:57:12 <Sgeo> (ok, not really, but I think I get some idea of similarities between Rebol and Kernel)
05:57:34 <Sgeo> Rebol keeps looking more like Racket than anything else :/
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05:59:03 <Bike> Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNpW8KZOVhw
05:59:12 <kmc> Sgeo: they should have sent a poet
05:59:52 <kmc> Bike: what. why.
06:00:48 <kmc> that's like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8AUPSfgk18 (can't remember if this is nsfw or not)
06:01:29 <Bike> still not sure whether i believe that was actually graded
06:02:15 <Bike> the typing noises are so great
06:02:28 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEgtYOJ_qeM is definitely nsfw
06:05:51 <Sgeo> I can't help think that I almost like Rebol's model better than Kernel
06:06:44 <Sgeo> Although guess I need to think about whether hygiene can even be broken in the right ways in that model
06:07:29 <Sgeo> I also need to not drop dead of sleep deprivation
06:08:48 <Bike> dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed.
06:10:41 <kmc> one thing I like about the Internet is that things which could be brilliant postmodern art or could be utter shite are produced and published at a rate much too fast for any authority to judge them
06:13:50 <Bike> well cboyardee's later stuff has been well received
06:17:26 * Bike makes note to talk about cboyardee's "rainbow period"
06:18:58 <Sgeo> I think after this song finishes playing I MUST sleep
06:19:44 <kmc> 500KV Substation arc.. Nice
06:25:45 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h6UPMcy8-o cool robot
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06:36:39 <fizzie> Robots are categorically cool, AIUI.
06:37:17 <fizzie> fungot: Have you inspected any high-voltage transmission lines lately?
06:37:17 <fungot> fizzie: and i tried those md5s both all caps and all lowercase
06:37:20 <Bike> fizzie has never watched asimo try to breakdance
06:37:27 <fizzie> fungot: That's... not quite the same thing.
06:37:27 <fungot> fizzie: what do 's buy you that fnord and x*y with 0/ 1 then 1/ 1; 1/ 3
06:37:42 <Bike> "Automatic Chicken Breast Deboning Robot " finally
06:39:33 <Bike> oh, this is cool.
06:45:01 <kmc> yes let's teach the robots how to remove bones
06:46:16 <Bike> i meant the power line one, i'm a bit too squeamish for deboning
06:46:24 <fizzie> fungot: Have you learned to remove bones?
06:46:24 <fungot> fizzie: mä fnord mennä fnord. fnord a maclisp guy at heart." block expr; i don't think
06:46:45 <kmc> what about reboning (maybe this sounds like i'm hitting on you)
06:46:46 <fizzie> (Also: more Finnish in it.)
06:47:58 <Bike> well, surgery's cool.
06:48:10 <Bike> i might take a field trip to see a da vinci surgery robot at some point
06:48:58 <Bike> such are the advantages at going to a meat-oriented school, i guess
06:49:10 <kmc> "orientation: meat"
06:49:30 <kmc> Bike: do they have some of those cows with clear removable ports installed in their stomachs
06:49:47 <kmc> so you can reach in and experience the beauty of nature as grass is turned into cow shit
06:50:13 <Bike> is... that a thing
06:50:14 <fizzie> Isn't "orientation: meat" the kind of thing you post in your deadjournal?
06:50:26 <Bike> damn i need to get investigating opportunities re: meat
06:50:59 <Bike> i haven't even gone to the raptor hospital >_>
06:51:00 <kmc> also, isn't it great the range of meaning that English gets just from naming different kinds of animal shit... eg bullshit horseshit dogshit chickenshit apeshit batshit
06:51:13 <Bike> never thought of it that way. very cool
06:51:46 <kmc> these all have different, useful meanings imo
06:52:54 <Bike> the subtle but important distinction between ape and bat shit
06:54:11 <fizzie> Which one of those is closest to bananas?
06:55:19 <kmc> apeshit, clearly
06:55:48 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's the logical choice, but I had this nagging suspicion batshit was closer.
06:56:03 <fizzie> Even though it makes no sense NYARRR
06:57:17 <fizzie> "An army of sneezing wangs stalks my nightmare", as the saying goes.
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06:58:42 <fizzie> http://isometri.cc/strips/i_have_horrible_allergies/
06:58:51 <kmc> wangs are not known to sneeze, in my experience
06:59:00 <Bike> i think 'sneering' could work though
07:01:07 <kmc> this is an odd comic
07:02:02 <fizzie> As I've mentioned a couple of times, back when I lived alone (redundant?) I had a dot-matrix-printer copy of http://isometri.cc/data/strips/only_when_youre_ready/21.gif as a wall decoration. It's classy to have some art, dontcha know.
07:02:37 <kmc> it's redundant because all of us are truly alone in life, deep down?
07:03:19 <fizzie> It's redundant because that's not the kind of picture you hang up as a member of the civilized society, perhaps.
07:03:34 <fizzie> (Also the print quality was bad.)
07:04:19 <kmc> i was going to put up some pictures but it sounds like I'll be moving (to another room in the same apartment) in a month or two
07:04:23 <kmc> so I'm putting it off again
07:05:00 <fizzie> Putting off and putting up sound pretty equivalent to moo. I mean, me.
07:05:36 <kmc> no its fine
07:05:39 <kmc> just small
07:05:52 <kmc> we have the smallest room and the largest number of people in a room
07:13:11 <fizzie> "NASA reports that it has used a pulsed laser beam to transmit data over the 384,633 kilometers (239,000 miles) between the Moon and the Earth at a transfer rate of 622 megabits per second." They can get 622 megabits to the *moon* but not more than barely a hundred to my home.
07:13:57 <fizzie> Not enough lasers involved in the latter, I suppose.
07:14:29 <Bike> bet you get better latency, tho
07:17:33 <fizzie> The press release doesn't mention it, but that sounds like a safe bet.
07:18:57 <kmc> you're complaining about having a hundred megabit connection to your house?
07:19:20 <kmc> come to america sometime
07:19:59 <fizzie> kmc: It's only ten in the other direction.
07:20:15 <fizzie> (Though the laser to the moon was also only 20 megs to the other direction.)
07:20:17 <shachaf> my internet connection at work is p. good
07:21:47 <fizzie> The student apartments here are (gradually) being upgraded to have gigabit Ethernet to the apartments themselves.
07:22:22 <fizzie> I think they've done about half.
07:22:54 <fizzie> http://netstat.ayy.fi/weathermap/ fancy graph.
07:25:26 <fizzie> Also the entire village used to be a single Ethernet segment at one point.
07:25:31 <fizzie> There was quite a lot of noise.
07:28:42 * kmc wonders who has wi.fi
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08:10:04 <fizzie> kmc: A company called "Wi Ventures".
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08:16:57 <Taneb> http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html
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09:57:31 <mroman> merde. j'ai besoin d'une nouveaux laptop. :(
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09:59:34 <ais523> I understand the rest of the sentence
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10:14:54 <nortti> http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html
10:19:04 <ais523> nortti: strangely enough, I'd opened that in tabs in my browser, but not read it yet
10:19:22 <ais523> but, as the famous lament quote goes, even a box of rotten apples on a string is Turing-complete
10:19:50 <ais523> like, I was intentionally keeping aimake configuration low-powered
10:20:13 <ais523> and yet I think that's Turing-complete, if you write a bunch of files for intermediate storage (assuming the filesystem allows files with names of unbounded length)
10:22:44 <fizzie> I wonder how chaos-pp/order-pp relate to the C preprocessor entry on that page.
10:23:39 <fizzie> (Also I've never figured out how those two work, but the claim to be standards-compliant, yet have apparently general control structures like 8while.)
10:25:24 <ais523> fizzie: huh, that's the same trick I used in Verity
10:25:25 <fizzie> And there's some kind of a lambda calculus example.
10:25:35 <ais523> all the internal-use-only identifiers start with digits to make them impossible to enter in a user program
10:25:47 <ais523> because the lexer won't lex their names
10:26:14 <fizzie> Is that the same thing? I don't think the number is part of the name here.
10:26:39 <fizzie> I guess maybe they're part of the same C preprocessing token.
10:26:43 <ais523> well, the C standards allow you to give semantics to otherwise illegal code
10:27:04 <ais523> it's the usual way to implement extensions
10:27:10 <fizzie> This is not illegal code or an extension, though.
10:31:15 <fizzie> But even in the preprocessor, macro names are restricted to identifiers, so the 8's can't at least be part of a macro name.
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10:31:45 <fizzie> Perhaps I should try to look at how it works at some point. It's just that, IIRC, order-pp is written on top of chaos-pp, and the latter seemed quite... confusing.
10:32:33 <fizzie> A lot of token concatenation is involved, I think.
10:34:11 <fizzie> I guess since everything is ultimately inside some ORDER_PP(...) macro it has a chance of prepending something else before the numbers.
10:37:15 <fizzie> But e.g. after #define ORDER_PP_DEF_8fib_iter ORDER_PP_FN(8fn(8N, 8I, 8J, 8if(8is_0(8N), 8I, 8fib_iter(8dec(8N), 8J, 8add(8I, 8J))))) the expression ORDER_PP(8stringize(8to_lit(8fib(8nat(5,0,0))))) expands into the string "139423224561697880139724382870407283950070256587697307264108962948325571622863290691557658876222521294125"
10:37:24 <fizzie> (Just verified that with gcc -E.
10:37:55 <ais523> cpp isn't turing-complete unless you run it in a loop, there's an entropy restriction
10:38:04 <ais523> but you can still make decently large loops and the like
10:38:43 <fizzie> I just wonder, since there seems to be no inherent limitations in order-pp.
10:40:42 <fizzie> I guess there is some kind of an arbitrary limit somewhere deep in chaos-pp.
10:40:57 <fizzie> But it manages to look quite a lot like the real thing, anyhow.
10:41:14 <ais523> I think offhand that cpp is primitive recursive, not sure on that though
10:41:24 <ais523> it's a computational class that doesn't get that much love, really
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10:48:17 <fizzie> You could sort of argue that the "Stuff which is somehow limited -- is still considered Turing complete, since all "physical" Turing machines are resource limited", should apply to C preprocessor too.
10:49:26 <fizzie> Compare e.g. someone's brainfuck interpreter in CPP that has unbounded memory but an execution step limit of 2^33 instructions, with Apache's rewrite rule system that has a similar arbitrary restriction and still has been counted to be TC on that page.
10:51:40 <ais523> I remember originally registering for reddit for the purpose of complaining that that HTML/CSS TCness proof was wrong
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11:01:23 <FireFly> What did it rely on anyway?
11:01:38 <FireFly> I recall there being something fishy with it
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11:12:22 <ais523> FireFly: it had limited memory horizontally, probably vertically too
11:12:44 <ais523> although I got at least some reddit commentors trying to work around that with CSSForms
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11:17:18 <ais523> mroman: I don't think it got very far
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12:09:37 <boily> good headache morning.
12:10:22 <boily> oerjan: people from trondheim are weird.
12:10:51 <oerjan> boily: itj færra nålles
12:11:31 <boily> oerjan: de quossé?
12:12:15 * oerjan doesn't actually speak trondheim dialect, despite living there for most of 24 years.
12:12:35 <fizzie> (Ooh, I low how Google Translate picks all the wrong senses for that.)
12:13:07 <oerjan> boily: hey no fair confusing google translate with your ... oh wait.
12:13:24 <boily> fizzie: do not change the service???
12:14:09 <fizzie> boily: It's approximately "you don't say [sarcastic tone]" or "say no more", it's just managed to choose pretty badly there.
12:14:11 <boily> oerjan: «dequossé» → «de quoi c'est» → «what is that» → «what» → «wut».
12:15:46 <oerjan> boily: it's a notorious trøndersk phrase which is used as a farewell greeting and means approximately "Don't get in trouble."
12:15:58 <fizzie> "muuta" is the second-person imperative of the verb "muuttaa" (alter, change), but it's also the partitive case for the noun "muu" (else, other).
12:17:00 <FireFly> No relation between "muuttaa" and "mutate"?
12:17:16 <ais523> hmm, in English, "you don't say" is mostly used as a sarcastic reply when someone says something really obvious
12:18:18 <fizzie> And "virka" is indeed a post or a public office or things like that, but also second-person imperative of the verb "virkkaa", which is (in addition to crocheting) an old-fashioned dialectal alternative of "to say, to speak".
12:18:28 <fizzie> oerjan: That should be "älä laita vauvaa".
12:18:31 <oerjan> ais523: you don't say.
12:19:17 <fizzie> ais523: So I thought. I think the Finnish works for that, at least vaguely, but it can also be used in a "you're certainly right about that" context, depending on tone.
12:19:45 <fizzie> I suppose more for the latter, really.
12:20:03 <fizzie> "Ai, älä?" or something would be a closer match for "you don't say".
12:21:58 <oerjan> fizzie: gt doesn't even give your senses as alternatives.
12:23:11 <fizzie> oerjan: I can see that. Though if you type in "virkkaa", it does list "say", "quoth" and "utter" as alternatives.
12:23:22 <fizzie> I guess "quoth" is kind of close, in that it sounds obsolete.
12:23:22 <ais523> hmm, I fear oerjan is transitioning into that awful curse of believing everything that computers say
12:23:38 <fizzie> fungot: Do you believe everything your computer tells you?
12:23:38 <fungot> fizzie: that's what i wanted
12:23:58 <fizzie> I suppose it's understandable for a piece of software.
12:24:14 <fizzie> Er, meaning fungot. I'm not implying anything about oerjan here.
12:24:23 <ais523> yeah, I think fungot trusting its computer is entirely reasonable
12:24:24 <fungot> ais523: that depends... there's two ways of doing things. and, tcl and ruby are my strongest.
12:24:38 <oerjan> ais523: if it's not on google, it doesn't exist!
12:24:39 <ais523> wow, two answers that can be interpreted as relevant in a row
12:25:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Are you, in fact, a piece of software?
12:25:34 <fizzie> fungot: You're on a roll. (I'm sure you'll reply something insensible to this.)
12:25:34 <fungot> fizzie: am i allowed to not use it voluntarily.
12:25:49 <oerjan> fizzie: well i'm fairly soft...
12:26:05 <fizzie> oerjan: I wonder if that's in the official translation.
12:27:15 <fizzie> No, it's just "korppi huus" (shortened form of "huusi", second person singular past tense of "huutaa", to shout).
12:28:03 <FireFly> I'm not entirely comfortable with the fact that fungot does tcl and ruby
12:28:03 <fungot> FireFly: blicero has been rotated. i think tspl is basically just r5rs scheme though. just used sox to convert fnord in emacs. how to deal with
12:28:07 <fizzie> ("Virkkoi korppi" sounds a bit too sedate for that context, actually.)
12:28:34 <fizzie> fungot: Is your army for world domination going to run on TCL and Ruby?
12:28:34 <fungot> fizzie: if you can find a very simple system that allows him to edit the generated output to get rid of methods all together just have the equivalent of " jump to the start and end of thread testing always the same.
12:29:37 <FireFly> That sounds vaguely relevant as well
12:30:09 <oerjan> also gt doesn't know what "Nevermore" is in finnish.
12:30:43 <fizzie> oerjan: "Ei milloinkaan."
12:30:48 <FireFly> and here I thought you knew Finnish
12:31:04 <FireFly> fungot: do you know Finnish?
12:31:04 <fungot> FireFly: that's still distracting from the main page and some links are known not to work
12:31:18 <fizzie> "Turhaan pyydän armahdusta, järkkymättä korppi musta / istuu päässä veistokuvan, hievahda ei paikaltaan. / Unelmissaan vain se mailla hornan liikkuu irvokkailla, / kun sen varjo aaveen lailla illoin kasvaa lattiaan / varjo synkkä, raskas, josta sieluni ei nousemaan / pääse enää milloinkaan."
12:31:54 <fizzie> There's some adaptation that has been done there.
12:32:13 * boily is drinking probably prestigious but most possibly bootleg 大紅包袍
12:34:56 <fizzie> I put *that* in GT, and for some weird reason it writes "BUDGE" in all uppercase.
12:36:06 <fizzie> Wow, the prosody for speaking that out loud was quite "out there".
12:36:19 <fizzie> Their language models aren't perhaps trained for poetry.
12:37:46 <fizzie> (You can also read it as "don't say 'muu'", a favourite for witty people everywhere.)
12:38:40 <oerjan> Onko lehmä on Buddha-luonto?
12:40:38 <boily> muu, muu, muu, muu ♪
12:43:34 <fizzie> oerjan: "Onko lehmällä Buddha-luonto" hth
12:44:16 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: possibly "Buddha-luontoa". It's debatable.)
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12:51:54 <ais523> hmm, now I want to make an esolang where all strings are equal
12:51:58 <ais523> but I'm not sure why that would be interesting yet
12:53:23 <ais523> hmm… I guess the difference between me and most esolangers is that I don't instantly go and put it into a BF derivative and call it a day
12:54:18 <FreeFull> ais523: You could make one where there are no string literals, so you have to write a string-generating function
12:54:20 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> hmm… I guess the difference between me and most esolangers is that I don't instantly go and put it into a BF derivative and call it a day
12:54:24 <HackEgo> 1122) <ais523> hmm… I guess the difference between me and most esolangers is that I don't instantly go and put it into a BF derivative and call it a day
12:54:44 <ais523> FreeFull: elliott already did that with Underload
12:56:50 <boily> elliott already did everything conceivable. except Feather.
12:56:58 <FreeFull> Doesn't seem to be what I was thinking of
12:57:29 <ais523> FreeFull: it basically only had literals for the basic commands, all of which had side effects (those commands themselves)
12:57:32 <oerjan> <ion> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ (f =<<) . ('0':)
12:57:50 <oerjan> that's not a correct thue-morse.
12:58:15 <FreeFull> ais523: http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric/underload/99.ul Are you sure you are talking about Underload?
12:58:21 <ais523> FreeFull: it was an Underload derivative
12:58:32 <ais523> the difference was that it had no string literals
12:58:38 <ais523> you had to build them up from the individual commands
12:58:57 <oerjan> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ ('0':) . tail . (f =<<)
12:59:02 <oerjan> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ ('0':) . tail . (f =<<)
12:59:08 <lambdabot> "01101001100101101001011001101001100101100110100101101001100101101001011001...
12:59:15 <FreeFull> I was thinking of something where you provide a formula and it becomes a string
13:00:33 <FreeFull> So something like (\x -> 0x41) would just generate an infinite string of a
13:00:55 <ais523> `quote sometime this week
13:01:07 <HackEgo> 214) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least. \ 356) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getti
13:01:14 <HackEgo> 356) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
13:01:16 <ais523> that's the one I was looking for
13:01:29 <FreeFull> What if all strings were expressed as polynomials?
13:01:36 <ais523> that program used that representation for lists
13:01:42 <ais523> and used lists as strings of digits
13:01:48 <ais523> that's why it was so slow, btw
13:03:13 <FreeFull> ais523: You could probably calculate pi faster than that using the first computer ever made
13:03:25 <ais523> FreeFull: not using that algorithm :)
13:03:27 <FreeFull> Much faster to calculate even by hand
13:05:21 <boily> I still believe the fastest way to get a very accurate pi is to use a large circle and a rope.
13:05:43 <ais523> boily: wouldn't that be inaccurate due to the curvature of the earth?
13:06:21 <boily> hmm... probably a very, very large circle then.
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13:06:41 <boily> hey, what if we used the observable universe?
13:06:57 <ais523> how are you going to measure the diameter/area of the observable universe?
13:08:28 <fizzie> ais523: I'm sure there are some estimates about the diameter based on $PHYSICS_THING, and then you can just multiply by pi.
13:08:46 <fizzie> (For diameter and circumference.)
13:08:54 <ais523> fizzie: this is for measuring pi
13:08:56 <fizzie> (I don't think you generally measure area with a rope, anyway.)
13:09:01 <ais523> so you can't use any formulas that depend on the value of pi
13:09:21 <fizzie> Oh, you just do it recursively.
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13:12:21 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmail that's the most (deliberate hyperbole) random "History" section in a Wikipedia article.
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13:14:40 <boily> “This article appears to be written like an advertisement.” but at least, it's an ecologically friendly advertisement.
13:15:43 <FreeFull> boily: I'm pretty sure using the observable universe only would get you about 20 digits or so
13:16:00 <FreeFull> And that's assuming it is flat in the first place
13:16:29 <boily> the Universe is flat, I say!
13:20:04 <boily> it is an assumption I'm perfectly happy to live by. I just can't picture curvature in my head.
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13:20:40 <boily> okay, I can imagine a rubber sheet (2D) being distorted in space (3D), but I can't imagine space (3D) curvatured (4D).
13:22:11 <`^_^v> can you imagine anything 4d?
13:22:50 <boily> nope. not at all. even the 3D projections disagree with my eyeballs, which in turn send confusing eldritch images to my brain.
13:24:43 <FreeFull> boily: http://www.geometrygames.org/CurvedSpaces/
13:25:10 <ais523> adanaxis helped, for me
13:25:19 <FreeFull> Lets you look at hyperbolic and elliptic spaces ( and others too )
13:25:26 <ais523> it's a 4-dimensional first person shooter (in space, so no gravity to worry about)
13:25:39 <ais523> the most obvious thing is that four dimensions gives a /lot/ of room to dodge
13:26:26 <boily> I'm already feeling nauseated (re “good headache morning”), so I think I will pass today.
13:26:57 <ais523> FreeFull: I've wanted to set an RPG in a hyperbolic space
13:27:02 <ais523> to confuse people who tried to draw a map
13:29:28 <FreeFull> ais523: I find both hyperbolic and elliptic space cool
13:29:36 <FreeFull> Although elliptic is more understandable
13:30:37 <FreeFull> To be honest though, when you look at hyperbolic space in 3D you don't really realise it is hyperbolic
13:30:47 <FreeFull> Although it does somehow feel bigger
13:35:50 <fizzie> # single valued (/me smirks)
13:35:52 <fizzie> -- Evolution's LDAP schema for an address book entry.
13:35:59 <fizzie> So unfair for poly people.
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13:42:08 <FreeFull> http://i.imgur.com/pL8aVPF.png
13:44:26 * boily is mantra-ising... “stay focused, stay focused, tea goes down, not up, stay focused...”
13:45:09 <FreeFull> That wasn't 3-sphere but Binary Dihedral 12 L
13:45:18 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.geometrygames.org/CurvedSpaces/
13:45:50 <FreeFull> Note that for some reason it won't work on Linux with AMD's propertiary drivers, but will work with open source ones
13:46:46 <FreeFull> Dihedral means a polyhedron with two sides
13:47:47 <FreeFull> One weird thing about elliptic spaces is that as you come closer to something, it first appears to be moving away from you, and then towards you
13:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> in this case it means the symmetry group of said polygon
13:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Dicyclic-commutative-diagram.svg helpful diagram
13:49:20 <FreeFull> I just checked and it doesn't actually seem to be a dihedron
13:49:55 <FreeFull> It seems to be a prism-like thing with 12 faces around the edges
13:52:11 <FreeFull> If you make the struts thin it looks like a torus
13:53:20 <FreeFull> The inside and outside switch as you cross the boundary
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14:04:37 <fizzie> "Description: SSH-Contact is a client/service tool that makes easy to connect your telepathy IM contacts via SSH. No need to care about dynamic IP, NAT, port forwarding or firewalls anymore; if you can chat with a friend, you can also SSH him."
14:04:43 <fizzie> That sounds kind of weird.
14:05:00 <FreeFull> You could use the galaxy or gyroscope
14:07:50 <fizzie> It's a Gnome IM thing.
14:08:02 <fizzie> I get confused about which part is Empathy and which part is Telepathy and so on.
14:08:31 <fizzie> I *think* Telepathy is the backend, and Empathy the UI.
14:08:43 -!- diva has changed nick to avid.
14:08:54 <Koen_> empathy is the part about feelings and telepathy the parts about thoughts
14:09:15 <boily> gnome is the part about gardens. twnh.
14:11:04 <boily> oh. a glaring hole!
14:11:18 <fizzie> quintopia: I think there's some module or another for bitlbee to use at least the IM protocol parts of Telepathy.
14:11:28 <boily> `learn twnh is dubious hambiguitous help that will or will not be help.
14:11:40 <fizzie> (Telepathy also does some audio/video call things like SIP.)
14:11:50 <boily> SIP is evil. very, very evil.
14:12:23 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you could get from Telepathy that bitlbee wouldn't already do via other means.
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14:13:44 <fizzie> Except perhaps a single place to configure IM accounts, but that sounds only relevant if you were actually using the Gnome/Empathy stuff.
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14:17:09 <fizzie> I'd perhaps like to get Skype into Bitlbee, but last I looked, it required running a headless copy of the actual client, and that sounded too silly.
14:17:12 <fizzie> (I don't suppose the MSN XMPP things they were making extend to IM'ing Skype users now that the accounts have been merged?)
14:20:29 <Phantom_Hoover> FreeFull, i think the binary dihedral n L is a 2n sided prism?
14:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> with the upper and lower faces glued, although i'm not sure in what orientation
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14:32:06 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: Could always figure out the file format to know for sure
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14:33:29 <Phantom_Hoover> it's "the quotient of the 3-sphere by the binary dihedral group D_12"
14:35:32 <FreeFull> I'm not a geometricist so that doesn't tell me much
14:36:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't really know what it means to take the quotient of a topological space with a group
14:38:14 <FreeFull> I just ripped the Unreal CD to an iso
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14:40:08 <FreeFull> I think Wine supports DirectX 5 pretty well
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14:40:47 <boily> FreeFull: platinum and/or gold.
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16:23:27 <fizzie> "Do not close our corridor door tonight if anybody is still working inside, please. Hopefully the lock gets fixed tomorrow, but currently the opening button does not work."
16:23:34 <fizzie> That is kind of tragic, to be stuck at work.
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17:24:00 <boily> `relcome ^Tristesse^
17:24:04 <HackEgo> ^Tristesse^: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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17:27:37 <boily> @tell ^Tristesse^ the usual.
17:28:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: välkommen: not found
17:29:02 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
17:31:46 <oklofok> (i guess there's a more appropriate word for welcome)
17:32:26 <FireFly> coi is approx. "hi", right?
17:33:19 <oklofok> that's pretty much all i know
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17:37:02 <lambdabot> FireFly asked 6m 53s ago: tervetuloa?
17:38:06 <oklofok> k i'm not sure what i asked
17:39:21 <FireFly> something about speaking and lojban, I think
17:40:13 <oklofok> "do you talk ? lojban" but i'm not sure which place fi gives
17:40:32 <oklofok> i don't remember what the lojban vowel order is
17:41:37 <boily> fee fy fo lojbanum.
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18:53:12 <kmc> `rwelcome Slereahphone
18:53:15 <HackEgo> Slereahphone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:55:36 <boily> oh, there's an rwelcome? looks nice!
18:56:06 <Bike> i think it's just a rename of the previous rwlcome.
18:56:37 <kmc> it's different from relcome which is per-character and looks bad imo
18:56:38 <olsner> this colors by word, the other one colors randomly I think
18:57:06 <boily> the other one is a fungotting nightmare to enlatexify.
18:57:07 <fungot> boily: the system... if operating... will be connected." :-d i am a scientist.' ( c interface generator), which would explain my ignorance)
18:57:38 <boily> fungot: no, it does not operate.
18:57:38 <fungot> boily: you there tonik? a: not being retarded!
18:57:48 <FireFly> fungot: and it doesn't explain your ignorance either
18:57:48 <fungot> FireFly: you're 13 hours east of me? and please define ' compiled language.
18:57:52 <olsner> can't you just make some tex macros that interpret the magic bytes that sets colors in irc?
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18:58:15 <olsner> might make the tex source horrible :D
18:58:45 <boily> my friend is travelling in Japan, so she's 13 hours from me. I should ask her about any bot sighting.
18:58:47 <FireFly> or just a sed script that substitutes the coloury IRC bytes with LaTeX macro invocations
18:59:05 <FireFly> fungot: for the record I'm one hour west of you. I think.
18:59:05 <fungot> FireFly: i am going to teach it how to correct the semantics of letrec in r5rs. what's the caveats?
18:59:31 <FireFly> The caveats of fungot teaching something something?
18:59:31 <fungot> FireFly: but purely for fnord entering in the repl'?" i'm not implying anything resembling creationism, i'm saying he's growing it in the book
19:00:20 <boily> olsner: you are a cocoonspirator on the Wisdom repo. you can sed to your heart's content on it.
19:00:41 <Slereahphone> So after a few years of joblessness and such I am doing some CS studies
19:00:59 <olsner> boily: I don't have enough disk space to install tex on this system
19:01:04 <Slereahphone> And now that I'm starting to learn some actual programming
19:01:46 <Slereahphone> Maybe finally implement the Andrei Machine or Limp
19:01:47 <boily> olsner: a full latex system isn't that big. it only takes...
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19:02:24 * boily waits while the du completes...
19:02:25 -!- monotone has joined.
19:03:12 <boily> Taneb: I like your github picture. is that bread?
19:03:43 <olsner> boily: oh, merely at least 1GB too big then
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19:06:07 <fizzie> boily: You can do randomness in LaTeX; our university logo needs that.
19:06:33 -!- monotone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:06:37 <fizzie> (Because it's either A!, A? or A" and the punctuation mark is in one out of three designated colors, randomly.)
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19:14:30 <boily> fizzie: ah! found it. aalto.fi.
19:14:47 <fizzie> boily: Sadly, terribly few official places actually do randomize it.
19:15:29 <boily> looks like the home page is stuck on a yellow “?”.
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19:16:20 <fizzie> Though the bottom header has the "
19:16:28 <fizzie> And the per-school pages have the red ?.
19:17:26 <fizzie> The logo generator -- http://aalto.digtator.fi/custom/aaltologoselector.aspx -- does put out random ones.
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19:19:29 <fizzie> You can get it as a PDF.
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19:39:21 <Taneb> boily, it's a yorkshire pudding
19:39:34 <boily> oh, the mysterious thing that sounds delicious.
19:40:24 <Taneb> a) it's savoury and generally served with a roast and b) I can send you a recipe if you want
19:43:47 <Bike> https://www.eventbrite.com/event/8938393977/ so who's going
19:44:41 <Bike> then how do you explain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre%C3%AF_Makine
19:44:45 <Slereahphone> It was an esolang based on the Kolmogorov machine
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19:48:08 <Slereahphone> I wonder if I still have the notes I wrote down for it
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19:50:06 <Fiora> Bike: http://arxiv.org/pdf/0809.4235.pdf help this is scary ;_;
19:50:22 <Fiora> (I followed the links from that story going around about quantum-entanglement-emergent-time and came upon a paper I will never understand)
19:51:26 <Bike> "hm, i bet this would scare the shit out of bike, better show them"
19:51:57 <Bike> this reads like snarxiv
19:52:34 <boily> holy integrals, batman!
19:53:14 <Slereahphone> it reads like a pretty standard quantum gravity paper?
19:53:28 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.4691v1.pdf is the more recent one
19:53:48 <Fiora> it's basically an experiment to demonstrate a thing where the time-evolution of a system exists with respect to an entangled clock but not a non-entangled clock or something?
19:53:51 <Bike> Slereahphone: like i said.
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19:54:05 <Fiora> they're apparently using the quantum eraser or something like that too, but I think I understand about 2% of it
19:54:51 <Slereahphone> I understand more quantum gravity than quantum computings I'm afraid
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20:04:03 <Vorpal> What the hell, OpenGL acceleration randomly broke
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20:16:42 <Vorpal> Okay... Somehow the kernel headers were not installed
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20:19:39 <Vorpal> Yeah, the year of the linux desktop is still some way away, there is too much weird breakage still happening for your average user.
20:20:24 <Bike> surprisingly the year of the linux desktop was actually 1739, we just missed it
20:20:29 <Vorpal> And weird quirks. Like if I mute the volume using the key on the keyboard, I have to manually open the pulse audio mixer to unmute.
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20:20:39 <Vorpal> Can't unmute it from the keyboard buttons
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20:21:28 <Vorpal> When it works, it works spectacularly well though
20:22:13 <Vorpal> Oh and this is with debian stable. Not sure if ubuntu is more "user friendly" as it were
20:22:34 <Vorpal> And I am using a kernel from backports, so that probably caused part of the proble
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20:39:26 <fizzie> I use some custom XMonad volume control bindings these days, after switching from the previous XMonad-in-Gnome-in-Ubuntu setup to a plainer XMonad-in-Debian one.
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20:44:57 <kmc> yeah well I run XMonad on BARE METAL
20:45:14 <kmc> I even dunked my CPU in some hydroflouric acid so that the metal would be more bare
20:45:25 <Bike> i run xmonad on electrons i gathered and arranged myself
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20:47:03 <olsner> all my xmonad electrons are volunteers, no forced labor in my window manager
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20:49:31 <fizzie> "Selected video codec: ASCII/ANSI art [libavcodec]" apparently mplayer will gamely play also all .txt files if I tell it to play *.
20:54:21 <kmc> great if you want to watch a whole movie and then a split second of some warez group .nfo file
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21:28:03 <kmc> Servo crashes if you try to put two sets of umlauts on the same letter :<
21:28:05 <kmc> we're not metal enough
21:29:14 <JWinslow23> Stackbeat is AMAZING! I just don't know how it works. :\
21:31:23 <fizzie> It's one of those music synthesis things.
21:31:50 <JWinslow23> I need a more thorough explanation on the wiki.
21:32:11 <fizzie> Isn't its article quite thorough?
21:32:21 <FireFly> I think someone wrote a forth-inspired RPN thing for the music synthesis thing a year or two ago
21:32:53 <FireFly> a møøse once bit my sister.
21:34:20 <kmc> "9 SAN BRUNO - Cow Palace"
21:34:24 <kmc> is a thing that buses in SF often say
21:35:10 <coppro> fizzie: i got lessons in how to pronounce finnish yesterday
21:35:52 <fizzie> coppro: What on earth for?
21:35:58 <JWinslow23> When are sounds made, is what I don't get.
21:36:12 <JWinslow23> Are they made after the bitwise operations?
21:36:20 <fizzie> JWinslow23: Well, when a daddy sound and a mommy sound like each other very much...
21:37:25 <FireFly> fizzie: why wouldn't one receive lessons on how to pronounce finnish?
21:38:21 <coppro> it turns out you pronounce it a lot like finish
21:38:29 <fizzie> JWinslow23: If the given StackBeat program is represented by the function PROG, the generated sound is just kind of what you get from for (t = 0; t < N; t++) buffer[t] = PROG(t); play(buffer); kind of thing.
21:38:43 <coppro> it's halfway between the two really
21:40:12 <fizzie> JWinslow23: Just PCM audio samples. You know. Output sin(k*t) to make a single sine wave, and so on.
21:40:53 <fizzie> Open some audio file in Audacity or some other audio editor.
21:41:01 <fizzie> It'll show you the values.
21:41:25 <JWinslow23> And I can recreate it in StackBeat, right?
21:41:56 <fizzie> Well, in theory. The program might end up rather long for an exact reproduction.
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21:46:58 <fizzie> You could start with a square wave, that's easy to do from bits.
21:47:00 <oerjan> ooh did anyone make an esolang 99 bottles that was the melody before
21:47:29 <fizzie> Try figuring out why 10:2#>1&120* is a tune one octave higher than 10:3#>1&120* for example.
21:47:58 <fizzie> (And similarly for 4, 5, ...)
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22:08:29 <oerjan> darn i was getting used to girl genius updating early again.
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22:11:50 <oerjan> i'm really wondering what about that view made agatha so shocked. educated guess: gil has filled his remaining empire with giant statues of her.
22:11:54 -!- S1 has joined.
22:12:41 <S1> Haven't been here for a while. Anyone on?
22:12:50 <kmc> `rwelcome S1
22:12:53 <HackEgo> S1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:14:56 <S1> What is your time zone kmc?
22:15:04 <kmc> America/Los_Angeles
22:15:26 * kmc is so pissed that it's not America/San_Francisco
22:15:30 <lambdabot> Local time for S1 is Thu Oct 24 00:15:29 2013
22:15:55 <S1> Didn't know one could do that
22:16:02 <kmc> @localtime kmc
22:16:05 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Wed Oct 23 15:16:02 2013
22:16:24 <S1> wow that's a difference
22:17:08 <S1> @localtime oerjan
22:17:08 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Oct 24 00:17:08 2013
22:17:27 <S1> oerjan is in France, right?
22:17:40 <shachaf> kmc: well i'm in America/San_Francisco
22:17:42 * oerjan sidles scarily close to S1
22:17:59 <Fiora> kmc: is LA not good enough for you
22:18:02 <oerjan> je suis francais tre bien aussi
22:18:17 <kmc> Fiora: nope, sorry
22:18:21 <shachaf> presumably that's why you left
22:18:33 <kmc> @loerjantime
22:18:55 <shachaf> Los_Angeles is not good enough for anyone
22:18:56 <oerjan> S1: you might want to test a few other information-gathering methods.
22:18:57 <Fiora> my local smoggy city is insufficiently good :<
22:19:08 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
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22:19:19 <S1> @listmodules
22:19:19 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap
22:19:19 <lambdabot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
22:19:28 <oerjan> (and i'm not talking about lambdabot)
22:19:33 <S1> How do I know what does what?
22:19:56 <kmc> @help yarr
22:20:12 <kmc> Fiora: I don't like cars :<
22:20:22 <Fiora> (sorry, I'm just teasing you xD)
22:20:49 <Taneb> The one thing I don't like about this game is that it doesn't really feel like a Pokemon game
22:20:54 <lambdabot> index <ident>. Returns the Haskell modules in which <ident> is defined
22:21:27 <oerjan> that's not very updated.
22:23:11 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Error, Foreign.Marshal, Foreign
22:23:16 <lambdabot> Control.Monad, Control.Monad.Reader, Control.Monad.Writer, Control.Monad.State, Control.Monad.RWS, Control.Monad.Identity, Control.Monad.Cont, Control.Monad.Error, Control.Monad.List, Data.Graph.
22:23:16 <lambdabot> Inductive.Query.ArtPoint, Data.Graph.Inductive.Query, Data.Graph.Inductive
22:23:49 <oerjan> i don't think that's what "defined" means, lambdabot
22:24:45 <shachaf> perhaps "defined" means "in scope"
22:24:51 <shachaf> as in "ERROR: x is not defined"
22:25:08 <oerjan> no, that's not what it means.
22:26:30 <Taneb> @index not#valid?name
22:26:55 <fizzie> Missing all the important operators there.
22:27:01 <fizzie> (Those were both real.)
22:27:36 <FireFly> Those read like lens operators
22:27:54 <oerjan> i don't think lens gets _quite_ that bad.
22:28:10 <oerjan> and the first one is a constructor.
22:28:59 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `:$#$#$#:'
22:29:00 <Taneb> The worst in lens is something like <<</>=
22:29:38 <lambdabot> `<<<>=' (imported from Control.Lens),
22:29:46 <Taneb> (it's only in HEAD)
22:30:21 <fizzie> ^#->#? is from regexdot.
22:30:23 <lambdabot> (Monoid r, MonadState s m) => LensLike' ((,) r) s r -> r -> m r
22:30:24 <FireFly> I think lens needs a fish operator
22:30:37 <S1> Did y'all just create a new esolang?
22:30:44 <fizzie> (^#->#?) :: a -> RepetitionBounds -> Repeatable a
22:30:52 <FireFly> Yes, it's called "Haskell with lens"
22:30:53 <oerjan> S1: no, this is haskell's lens library.
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22:31:30 <S1> yes, no, same reason, ok.
22:31:31 <oerjan> <<<>= looks insane, but it's supposedly logical. although i don't quite remember what the initial << means.
22:31:44 <S1> Should learn this lang
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22:32:36 <FireFly> oerjan's response might've been more honest
22:33:00 <Taneb> oerjan, that means it gives you the value before it was changed
22:33:08 <oerjan> ok from the types i think << means to ... right.
22:33:09 <Taneb> = means it modifies in the State monad
22:33:16 <Taneb> <> means it's mappend
22:33:31 <fizzie> (<//><) has something to do with fish, right?
22:33:36 <lambdabot> (Monoid r, MonadState s m) => LensLike' ((,) r) s r -> r -> m r
22:33:50 <FireFly> fizzie: it's a fishy operator
22:33:52 <Taneb> Hmm, I ought to train my Pikachu some more
22:34:02 <oerjan> and if << gives you _before_ it was changed, just < gives after. i think.
22:34:18 <lexande> maybe hilighting on "train" isn't such a great idea...
22:34:44 <FireFly> What, are you that interested in railway discusisons?
22:34:51 <HackEgo> 328) <Phantom_Hoover> The system I kind of have in mind makes a flying train a natural consequence. \ 628) <oklopol> the point of a university is research and training new researchers. the point of the world is to enable this. \ 761) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more,
22:35:19 <HackEgo> 761) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast i
22:35:58 <FireFly> Why are itidus21's quotes so insightful that they don't fit in a single line?
22:36:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:36:48 <FireFly> `run quote 761 | tail -c +200
22:36:50 <HackEgo> How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast in the dining carriage?
22:36:59 <FireFly> `run quote 761 | tail -c +100
22:37:01 <HackEgo> 't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast in the dining carriage?
22:40:37 * S1 drowns in text
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22:54:56 <shachaf> do you have /hilight exande\b
22:55:08 <shachaf> hmm, that would match on alexande et al.
22:55:26 <lexande> i actually hilight on alexande anyway
22:55:26 <kmc> <//>< fishy brackets ><\\>
22:56:14 <lexande> i just have /hilight lexande
23:00:10 <fizzie> I have a "/hilight -mask -level quits fungot!*@*" but it doesn't seem to work.
23:00:10 <fungot> fizzie: well " would think so", "
23:00:39 <fizzie> fungot: Well if you're so clever, why don't you tell me how to write it.
23:00:39 <fungot> fizzie: the numbers could still be useful for see if something is said on reddit, it must be considered as a crime... i am
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23:45:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: taking the quotient by a group probably means you have an action of the group, and the equivalence classes are whatever points are mapped to each other by the group action.
23:46:44 <oerjan> and then you use the usual quotient topology on that if you have one on the original space.
23:47:47 <oerjan> indeed that would seem to be a problem. but there is probably an obvious one?
23:48:10 * oerjan isn't overly well-acquainted with 3-spheres.
00:00:11 <kmc> wow sprint will buy back my old phone for a whole FIVE DOLLARS!
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00:02:02 <Fiora> kmc is now a rich man
00:02:48 <Jafet> Don't spent it all at once
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00:08:35 <kmc> they should offer a sandwich instead
00:12:05 <Bike> sell it to someone for twenty of the earth dollars
00:12:16 <kmc> probably send it off to the third world to be melted down by children for trace rare metals
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00:15:40 <Jafet> Mail that sandwich to a landfill urchin in manila
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00:29:35 <Phantom_Hoover> woo youtube now has a useless navigation bar pinned to the top of the window
00:30:03 <Phantom_Hoover> why did google hire a bunch of total incompetents to redesign all their UIs?
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00:31:09 <oerjan> hm did anyone make a navigation bar blocker yet
00:31:51 <Phantom_Hoover> it's two small icons at the top-left and top-right corners, the rest of the bar is just blank
00:32:15 <Jafet> oerjan inadvertently begins the navigation bar arms race
00:32:48 <Phantom_Hoover> you need to actually click those icons to bring up the menus, because at some point google decided putting tools one click away was unacceptably simple
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00:34:19 <Jafet> Maybe you'd appreciate it more if you upgraded to a smaller screen
00:39:13 <Sgeo> "It stays on top and works well with Excel."
00:39:17 <Sgeo> (about a desktop calculator)
00:39:27 <Sgeo> http://www.sheepfriends.com/index-page=kelly.html
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00:42:05 <Sgeo> Is klisp considered a good implementation?
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01:07:15 <ion> oerjan: I never claimed it was a Thue-Morse.
01:12:38 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched ...
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01:13:16 <oerjan> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ (f =<<) . ('0':)
01:13:17 <lambdabot> "01011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001...
01:19:26 <trout> what does fix() do ?
01:22:57 <oerjan> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in drop 2 . fix $ (1':) . tail . (f =<<)
01:22:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:53: parse error on input `:'
01:23:07 <oerjan> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in drop 2 . fix $ ('1':) . tail . (f =<<)
01:23:08 <lambdabot> "01011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001...
01:23:59 <oerjan> ion: it's actually the inversed TM sequence minus the first two digits :)
01:28:30 <kmc> the Moose-Thor sequence
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01:39:19 <ion> oerjan: heh
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01:41:24 <ion> https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/d5d3dc850933
01:43:06 <kmc> hey shachaf can we use ~wavelet trees~ to support efficient codepoint-based indexing into UTF-8 strings
01:45:31 <ion> :-D:-D:-D http://www.sateilykontrolli.fi/suojakotelot/dect-wlan-box.html http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sateilykontrolli.fi%2Fsuojakotelot%2Fdect-wlan-box.html&act=url
01:52:14 <Sgeo> Should I attempt to write $syntax-rule for Kernel?
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02:31:29 <Sgeo> "SO IT CAN'T USE #F AS AN OUT-OF-BAND OBJECT"
02:32:46 <Sgeo> Although I do agree with the blogger that assoc could have a better choice of indicating failure
02:46:54 <Sgeo> kmc: I do prefer your order of arguments to eval (env first) over Kernel's, I think
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04:54:39 <Sgeo> I think I discovered a violation of Kernel philosophy in Kernel
04:55:40 <Sgeo> How does the evaluator work? It does one thing on pairs, another thing on symbols... and every other type is self-evaluating?
04:55:59 <shachaf> kmc: hmm, what do you mean
04:56:08 <Bike> what part of the philosophy does that violate
04:56:25 <Sgeo> So, that implies there's no user-accessible way to make a type that evaluates to something other than itself
04:56:57 <shachaf> keeping the string in memory as-is and making an additional structure for indexing it, or representing it differently, or what
04:57:41 <Sgeo> "Programmer-defined facilities should be able to duplicate all the capabilities and properties of built-in facilities."
04:57:42 <Bike> heh, that's kind of what my implementation is about doing, nto that i give a fuck about 'philosophy'.
04:57:53 <Bike> Sgeo: well you can write your own evaluator.
04:59:12 <Sgeo> I don't know if that really qualifies as fixing the problem
04:59:31 <Sgeo> Unless custom evaluators can take the place of the native one easily? Even then, seems a bit iffy
04:59:59 <Bike> well, i mean, what's the "built-in facility" here.
05:00:27 <Bike> if i understand what you're saying correctly you could say that it should be possible to make types that have something else for a 'car'.
05:10:16 <Sgeo> I don't think there's a facility for defining equal? on encapsulated types either
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05:23:53 <Sgeo> Maybe '(a b c) should be a synonym for (list a b c)
05:24:02 <Sgeo> Although that would certainly confuse most Lisp programmers
05:24:44 <Sgeo> That sort of thing is probably addressed in a rationale somewhere
05:26:24 <Bike> i thin they sort of are equal
05:27:17 <Sgeo> So apply-continuation passes control to the continuation normally, and the applicative formed by continuation->applicative passes control to its continuation abnormally, iiuc. That seems like it's likely to confuse
05:28:38 <elliott> Bike: '(a b c) is (list 'a 'b 'c)
05:29:41 <Bike> Oh, wait, quoted lists are probably specified to be immutable.
05:29:48 <Bike> elliott: oh. right. sgeo what the heck.
05:30:05 <Sgeo> Hmm, I think I read extend-continuation and thought it was apply-continuation
05:30:23 <Bike> kernel's continuations are weird as hell imo
05:31:04 <Sgeo> My only question is if delimited continuations can be built on top of them sanely (i.e. not in the leaky "add a mutable cell" way)
05:31:11 <elliott> Bike: he was making a suggestion, I think
05:31:48 <Bike> elliott: yes but it's a weird one.
05:32:30 <Sgeo> guard-continuation would become less verbose, and there would be less temptation to make it an operative $guard-continuation
05:39:40 <Sgeo> I also want to know if something similar to CL-style restarts can be achieved
05:40:08 <Bike> with continuations?
05:40:21 <Bike> because, like, obviously yes.
05:40:46 <Sgeo> There are possibilities for limitations to get introduced
05:41:14 <Sgeo> In Racket, you can't just resume from a (raise blah) unless the code before it co-operates to provide a continuation
05:41:49 <Sgeo> Could make a raise-resumable ofc, but that does nothing to resume at an exception thrown by code not supportive of this facility
05:42:36 <Bike> well you don't need anything continuationy for restarts anyway. just lexical escapes.
05:45:00 <Sgeo> Without continuations, think you also need dynamically-scoped variables via some mechanism?
05:45:50 <Bike> they don't need to be variables, just some dynamic access
05:45:55 <Bike> you could use globals if you hate life
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05:47:57 <Sgeo> Ok, so apply-continuation does in fact pass it abnormally
05:58:35 <Sgeo> decapsulate is such a fun word
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06:08:38 <Sgeo> "Since before I started klisp, the main hole of the Kernel Report I wanted to address is the fact that there is no way to customize read/write/eval/eq?/equal?, neither for new objects types (encapsulations) nor for primitive types. I always leaned to generic functions/multi-methods as a catch all solution, but as the Report mentions, this is just one possible solution. "
06:09:43 <Bike> it's kind of great how crazy you can make a pretty printer.
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07:17:34 <kmc> it's a piece of cake to make a pretty printer
07:17:53 <kmc> shachaf: uh i dunno it was only half an idea
07:18:31 <kmc> I guess the simple idea is you would just store the bitvector of "is byte n the start of a character" as a succinct set whatever
07:19:50 <kmc> then you can get the nth character or count the characters up to a byte position
07:20:00 <kmc> but that's not a wavelet tree just the flat thing
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07:32:33 <kmc> so that lets you store UTF-8 and index it quickly by codepoint with only 12.5% + o(n) overhead
07:32:45 <kmc> (space overhead)
07:32:51 <kmc> what I don't know is whether such strings can also be quickly appended, sliced, etc
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08:34:25 <kmc> "Why does the Mercedes S-Class contain gcc, libpcap, SSLeay *and* OpenSSL, dropbear *and* OpenSSH, etc? http://www4.mercedes-benz.com/manual-cars/ba/foss/content/en/assets/FOSS_licences.pdf"
08:35:17 <fizzie> That's a lot of licenses.
08:35:54 <kmc> stupid future
08:36:34 <fizzie> They've managed to use pppd for something too, I see.
08:37:48 <fizzie> "Unicode License 2004" "Unicode License 2008" "Unicode License 2011" "Unicode License 2012" well at least the car has good character set support, presumably.
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09:52:45 <Taneb> First historical computer architectures practical...
09:53:16 <Taneb> Me and my partner are having about as much luck getting started as Babbage did
09:53:41 <fizzie> Sounds like you're striving for historical accuracy, then.
09:54:14 <Taneb> fizzie, we're to use a Java-based analytical engine simulator
09:55:22 <Taneb> Which, to our disgruntion, did not work under Linux
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10:05:18 <fizzie> Write once, run nowhere.
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15:14:39 <shachaf> kmc: Ah, I was wondering whether you meant something like that.
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15:25:05 <Bike> what they said.
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16:28:00 <JWinslow23> How again would I access sound values in Audacity again?
16:28:08 <JWinslow23> I wanna make a 99 Bottles Stackbeat program.
16:29:11 <Koen_> so I met this guy today and now I want to learn Haskell
16:35:15 <JWinslow23> How do we access PCM values in Audacity for use in a Stackbeat program?
16:38:02 <ais523> oh wow, how's this for a broken license statement?: "This material is in the public domain and may be freely used, with attribution given to Rice University. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ "
16:39:37 <elliott> ais523: that probably actually accomplishes what they intend, because it's too ambiguous to release it into the PD but states the exact license to use?
16:39:46 <JWinslow23> Well, I have a 99 Bottles of Beer 8-bit song. How would I convert it to a Stackbeat program?
16:40:12 <ais523> at least, I think any court would find that if attribution were given, it would be acceptable to use it
16:40:25 <ais523> I remember the court case which tested the Artistic License
16:40:31 <ais523> which is really muddled in the way it was written
16:40:49 <ais523> the court case found that the license at least clearly showed a desire for attribution, and thus not giving attribution was illegal
16:40:58 <ais523> (which was enough to decide that particular case)
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16:41:44 <nooodl> JWinslow23: i guess first you convert the audio to 8kHz 8-bit mono PCM
16:41:56 <ais523> it's interesting that the Artistic License has been confirmed to work in court, but not the GPL
16:42:12 <nooodl> you can look probably that up
16:43:06 <nooodl> afterwards it's a matter of writing a stackbeat program that plays that exact audio file, which would be something like
16:45:38 <ais523> even more interestingly, due to a quirk of jurisdiction, it ended up being handled by a patents court rather than a copyright court
16:45:46 <ais523> because a patent had been mentioned earlier on
16:45:46 <nooodl> $0 _0^!A*| _1^!B*| _2^!C*|
16:46:08 <nooodl> where A, B, C... are the bytes from your audio file
16:46:41 <nooodl> (note: this program is going to be huge)
16:47:15 <ais523> doing a 99bob program without using a loop to iterate over the individual bottles is cheating
16:47:19 <ais523> doing it with a for/switch is probably also cheating
16:47:44 <JWinslow23> Well, how to extract bytes from the audio file?
16:48:31 <ais523> on Linux, use od -t x1 filename
16:48:48 <ais523> (change the x to d for decimal)
16:48:56 <nooodl> actually just write a script that reads the file prints "_{time}^!{sample}*|" a bunch of times to generate your code
16:49:24 <ais523> yeah, that'd be better than doing it by hand
16:50:12 <JWinslow23> OK, I got the hex code. From what point should I start?
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16:54:06 <ais523> you need a programming language to write it in
16:54:17 <ais523> you could do it in brainfuck, actually
16:54:29 <ais523> although the conversion to decimal would be a pain
16:55:08 <nooodl> a verse of "99 bottles" takes about 8 seconds to sing. so that's (8000 * 8 bits/sec) * (8 seconds) * 99 = 6.043 MB (for 13.2 minutes of audio)
16:55:27 <ais523> also, bleh, this paper is old enough to a say "associate" rather than "associative"
16:55:40 <ais523> you could come up with some sort of compression scheme to make it smaller
16:57:23 <ais523> hmm, this entire conversation sounds like "I want to write a program but I don't know how to program"
16:57:54 <ais523> well you wouldn't use stackbeat to write the conversion scripe
16:58:02 <ais523> just like programs to generate C don't have to be written in C
16:58:05 -!- asie has joined.
16:58:10 <ais523> (although they usually are, as it happens)
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16:58:39 <ais523> I don't know stackbeat, but you could probably make the program shorter by using some sort of array
16:58:43 <ais523> if that exists in the language
16:58:48 <ais523> is it a "real" language or an esolang?
16:59:50 <ais523> why does that thing not have loops?
17:00:04 <ais523> apart from the implicit one
17:00:29 * FireFly made a thing a long time ago with only a single implicit loop
17:00:46 <nooodl> you could compress it by doing something like,
17:01:17 <nooodl> if t mod (length of a verse) = (index of first "bottles of beer" sample), output (first "bottles of beer" sample)
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17:01:38 <ais523> hmm, it doesn't say the size of the stack elements
17:01:50 <ais523> if they're bignum, you could just push the entire song as one big number
17:02:05 <ais523> then shift by an amount depending on the timestamp, and do modulo to get at the byte you want
17:02:23 <ais523> "This top value is reduced to just one byte and sent to audio output."
17:02:25 <ais523> possibly don't even need the mod
17:03:13 <ais523> I guess it's using floats to store the individual stack elements
17:03:16 <ais523> due to being written in JS
17:03:38 <JWinslow23> If only the thing had the same notation as that MIDI notation.
17:04:19 <nooodl> JWinslow23: imagine a really long number in binary: [... dddddddd cccccccc bbbbbbbb aaaaaaaa] where aaaaaaaa are the 8 bits of the first sample, bbbbbbbb are the 8 bits of the second one, etc.
17:05:17 <nooodl> you just push that number and bitshift it right by (8 * time). for example if time == 2, it'll become [... ffffffff eeeeeeee dddddddd cccccccc] because you shift the 16 least significant bits away
17:05:47 <nooodl> then the number gets reduced to a single byte by taking the lowest 8 bits which are cccccccc
17:06:08 <JWinslow23> And the value of cccccccc gets popped?
17:06:58 <nooodl> yeah. i think after each computation, stackbeat just pops the top value off the stack and outputs that, discarding anything else on it
17:07:05 <ais523> you can't fit a 6MB number into a float, though, so the JS interps wouldn't work
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17:08:58 <myname> stackbeat looks really awesome
17:09:36 <nooodl> so in stackbeat it'd be: (really long number) #8*>
17:09:50 <ais523> nooodl: should be an underscore in there
17:09:55 <nooodl> it's about 34.8 million digits in decimal
17:09:56 <ais523> I think your client changed it to an underline, though
17:10:10 <nooodl> ais523: the time is pushed first isn't it? i have # (swap) in there
17:10:17 <ais523> nooodl: there are no underscores in what you sent
17:10:23 <nooodl> "the stack is initialized with the timestamp value on the top"
17:10:28 <ais523> you're using the initial value
17:10:40 <ais523> and relying on the fact that the number, though really really big, is just one element
17:10:55 <ais523> hmm… with bignum and some sort of loop, stackbeat would be TC
17:11:27 <nooodl> needs to be a stackbeat variant that takes audio input too
17:11:50 <nooodl> and then you can program audio filters in it!!
17:12:21 <mroman> svn: Server sent unexpected return value (405 Not Allowed) in response to OPTIONS request for 'http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/svn/esofiles'
17:12:24 <mroman> 2013-10-24 06:30:06 URL:http://esolangs.org/dump/esolang.xml.gz [30756757/30756757] -> "esolang.xml.gz" [1]
17:12:33 <JWinslow23> If you want to tamper with my 99 bottles file, here it is on Mediafire. http://www.mediafire.com/?uaulzh1509394pz
17:12:51 <mroman> because something is not allowed :)
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17:14:17 <myname> the 42 melody doesn't work here :(
17:15:12 <myname> actually, crowd is the only one that works here
17:20:13 <myname> i am using that bookmarklet
17:20:20 <myname> it works fine with crowd
17:20:32 <myname> but does not produce any sound at all from the other examples
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17:21:17 <JWinslow23> It works fine on mine. Did you select and/or copy-paste the text correctly?
17:23:14 <myname> you know a double click? it's basically 3/2 of that :p
17:24:22 <Koen_> is 3/2 of "a double click" "aa ddoouubblle click"?
17:24:22 <myname> it's supposed to mark a whole paragraph
17:25:19 <FireFly> I think it's "aa ddouublle cllicck"
17:26:25 <Koen_> but that's completely arbitrary!
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17:27:54 <olsner> Koen_: it's half a tripleclick
17:28:16 <Koen_> olsner: funny, Ithought it was a full tripleclick
17:29:47 <myname> copying and pasting doesn't work either :(
17:31:08 <olsner> Koen_: oh, maybe it is
17:31:21 <Koen_> olsner: I believe you meant "half a sexclick"
17:31:37 <olsner> I read 3/2 clicks, sorry
17:32:05 <Koen_> is that a full click plus a half-pressure-on-the-button click?
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17:34:25 <olsner> maybe you need a float pointing device to do it
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17:45:28 <JWinslow23> So, how's the 99 Bottles comin' along?
17:49:05 <ais523> hey, anyone here know how to type a ć using the altgr or the compose key in Linux/Gnome/Ubuntu?
17:49:29 <ais523> it wasn't working before I asked
17:49:59 <ais523> maybe I just made some sort of incredible typo
17:51:07 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
17:51:19 <ais523> btw, #esoteric: thanks for telling me what "substructural" meant
17:51:26 <ais523> it's really helping me construct searches for relevant papers
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17:53:38 <fizzie> JWinslow23: If you want people to "tamper" with it, shouldn't you share the source rather than the binary?
17:54:26 <fizzie> The StackBeat source. Or was this something else?
17:55:05 -!- JWinslow23 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
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17:56:13 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it was a recording of some StackBeat code.
17:56:34 <ais523> the problem is basically "write a program to produce this output"
17:56:45 <myname> anyone confident enough in mariolang to tell me if the ! is really needed on elevators?
17:56:46 <ais523> where the output is a recording of someone singing, and thus does not compress particularly well
17:56:59 <fizzie> ais523: It wasn't someone singing, though.
17:57:01 <ais523> or at least, not if it has to be expanded by a language with no loops
17:57:23 <fizzie> ais523: Boops and bleeps, basically. In fact, something I think could be compressed to a StackBeat program of reasonable size.
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17:57:31 <fizzie> (Not a small one, by any means, but still.)
17:57:45 <fizzie> (At least if you approximate.)
17:58:41 <JWinslow23> Been a while since someone mentioned MarioLANG.
17:58:48 <JWinslow23> I actually made a Hello World program.
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17:59:34 <myname> i do find elevators underspecified, though
18:00:40 <myname> i.e.: do you have to make mario stand still? if not, does he move one per turn (i.e. will it work if the elevator is flat enough)
18:00:57 <myname> is it teleportation or does it respect the symbols on the way up?
18:01:25 <myname> how far do jumps go up?
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18:03:12 <JWinslow23> Elevators follow the symbols on the way up.
18:03:34 <myname> that is what i would assume, too
18:03:54 <JWinslow23> Jumps go up 1 space, and if a space to make Mario move isn't there, an infinite loop occurs.
18:04:18 <JWinslow23> So a > over a ^ would make him jump right.
18:04:29 <JWinslow23> An upside-down U shape throughout the jump.
18:05:18 <JWinslow23> And elevators are skipped over if Mario keeps moving.
18:05:46 <myname> what if an elevator arrives on top but there is no moving symbol?
18:05:47 <HackEgo> bin/define \ bin/delquote \ bin/delvs
18:05:56 <HackEgo> bin/undo \ bin/unh \ bin/unicode \ bin/unidecode \ bin/units
18:06:17 <HackEgo> [U+22C2 N-ARY INTERSECTION]
18:06:19 <HackEgo> Can't open hth: No such file or directory.
18:06:22 <JWinslow23> Yeah, so put a moving symbol there, coders!
18:06:28 <HackEgo> [U+0107 LATIN SMALL LETTER C WITH ACUTE]
18:06:29 <HackEgo> Can't open <hth: No such file or directory.
18:06:54 <HackEgo> [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H]
18:07:34 <JWinslow23> If an elevator can go down AND up, it will only go up.
18:07:41 <ais523> `unicode U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T
18:07:51 <JWinslow23> Mario does not destroy objects as he encounters them.
18:07:58 <ais523> Unicode Consortium, go fix your standard to allow for unidecode injections
18:07:59 <fizzie> ais523: You can give that multiples with run.
18:08:11 <ais523> fizzie: nope, I'm trying to find a single character with that name
18:08:19 <ais523> so as to make unidecode's output ambiguous unless you look very closely
18:08:28 <fizzie> `run unicode 'LATIN SMALL LETTER H' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER T'
18:08:32 <JWinslow23> This ===|=== will make the wall act as a floor.
18:09:08 <fizzie> Somehow I don't think there will be any Unicode characters with "U+XXXX" and/or ][s in the name.
18:09:23 <ais523> I assumed that's what the square brackets were for
18:09:27 <ais523> preventing injection attacks
18:09:54 <myname> JWinslow23: what if i have stacked " over one #, will it move to the highest?
18:10:21 <fizzie> Well, kind of. The U+XXXX bit was added later than the brackets, so it needed something to visually separate characters.
18:10:46 <JWinslow23> myname, I believe it should go to the lowest.
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18:11:44 <myname> i have to rewrite like half of my code
18:12:11 <JWinslow23> Sorry about that. Can you give an estimate as to when you will release it?
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18:13:14 <boily> `relcome Guest54948
18:13:17 <HackEgo> Guest54948: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:14:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Bienvenue: not found
18:14:31 <myname> JWinslow23: i am not writing an interpreter yet
18:14:37 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
18:15:04 <JWinslow23> You said "I have to rewrite like half of my code".
18:15:16 -!- Guest54948 has left.
18:16:23 -!- S1 has joined.
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18:19:55 <JWinslow23> Take your time. Post the source when you're done!
18:20:10 <myname> you don't even know what i am doing :D
18:22:40 <Taneb> Help I'm 1st year maths course rep and I can't remember if I told you guys already or not
18:22:46 <boily> `learn myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I?
18:23:03 <boily> Taneb: you didn't.
18:23:13 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
18:24:16 <olsner> what does a maths course rep do?
18:24:23 <Taneb> I'm not actually sure
18:24:33 <Taneb> I think I'm to represent first-years doing maths
18:24:41 <olsner> it might've helped knowing that before accepting the position
18:24:52 <Taneb> boily: I don't think the TA has much to do with it
18:25:03 <Taneb> I presume they're too busy waiting to shoot things
18:25:21 <boily> ...??? just what kind of job does a rep do?
18:25:49 <Taneb> Tell the staff that the course is being taught poorly
18:25:54 <olsner> a rep repeats instructions
18:26:23 <Vorpal> What is it with official websites for musicians and stupid web design? Like flash-navigation or putting everything in a tiny little box in the middle of the page (which looks utterly ridiculous on a 24" monitor!) It is common enough to not just be a coincidence
18:27:09 <boily> Taneb: oh, I got the job description the wrong way round. makes much more sense now.
18:27:15 <boily> Vorpal: same thing with restaurants.
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18:27:45 <HackEgo> myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I?
18:27:48 <Vorpal> boily, hm true. Though some restaurants opt for the "early web" feel instead.
18:28:32 <boily> Vorpal: the only kind of website I have seen that persists in the Way of the Early Web are those from FLGSes.
18:28:45 <HackEgo> Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
18:29:05 <Vorpal> boily, what is a FLGS?
18:29:14 <boily> case in point: http://levalet.com/ http://www.imaginaire.com/indexv2.jsp?langue=fr
18:29:21 <boily> Vorpal: a Friendly Local Game Store.
18:29:49 <JWinslow23> So, if anyone can make a MarioLANG interpreter, post it in the esoteric file archive, or on the MarioLANG page.
18:29:55 -!- JWinslow23 has left.
18:31:06 <Vorpal> boily, "levalet" sounds familiar. Not sure what I'm thinking of though.
18:31:45 <boily> recase in repoint: http://chezgeeks.com/ (halfway decent) and http://www.strategygames.ca/
18:31:52 <Vorpal> Ah, no I'm thinking of La Valette from Witcher 2
18:32:12 <Vorpal> boily, those doesn't look early web with minimal CSS.
18:32:32 <Vorpal> That was how I meant with early
18:32:54 <Vorpal> boily, like, maybe the background colour set, but not much else
18:33:06 <Taneb> Vorpal: freefall.purrsia.com?
18:33:43 <Vorpal> Taneb, yeah sure, about that level.
18:34:01 -!- asie has joined.
18:34:21 <Vorpal> Taneb, I know at least three restaurants around here with that level of formatting.
18:34:48 <Taneb> Vorpal: I think most of the restaurants in Hexham have a website consisting of a single image
18:35:06 <Taneb> Also, did you know that someone who makes hats is a milliner?
18:37:05 <Vorpal> Why the hell... youtube-dl is broken? Righ
18:37:18 <Vorpal> It downloads this 4K video in 720p
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18:45:34 <john_metcalf> Hi! Does anyone know much about formatting citations here? Is there a correct way to cite the language an article is written in?
18:46:29 <boily> john_metcalf: citing in which context?
18:46:49 <john_metcalf> Boily: in a bibliography, e.g. here http://www.retroprogramming.com/2011/11/bibliography-of-programming-games.html
18:47:16 <john_metcalf> Some of the articles are written in Spanish. One in Swedish. I'm about to add one in Italian.
18:48:00 <boily> hmm... probably by following wikipédia's standards? otherwise, hmm...
18:48:21 -!- conehead has joined.
18:49:46 <FireFly> john_metcalf: Danish, actually, if you mean "Slaget om siliciummet"
18:49:51 <boily> john_metcalf: here's a promising example → http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2570362/
18:51:33 <boily> PSA! caution! scandinavians abound in this chännel!
18:52:02 <Taneb> Woah I didn't sign up for this
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18:53:42 <ion> National Institute of NIH
18:54:16 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:54:42 <ion> National Institute of National Institute of National Institute of National Institute of
18:55:25 <boily> whereas shachaf is lazy, ion is strict.
18:55:51 <Bike> Fiora: cold spring harbor is doing a bio version of arxiv!! super exciting
18:55:51 <ion> Nope. That was a lazy infinite string, you chose to evaluate it to whatever you see for whatever reason.
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18:56:59 <ion> inftythree
18:57:11 <john_metcalf> Hmmm... looks promising. I've been using MLA citations, but the style guide doesn't mention foreign languages.
18:57:32 <boily> eeeeeh... metasepia's in French?
18:57:46 <metasepia> Error (1): Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num
18:57:46 <metasepia> (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> t))
18:57:46 <metasepia> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_1112'
18:57:46 <metasepia> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a1 -> t),
18:57:46 <metasepia> bound by the inferred type for `e_1112':
18:57:47 <metasepia> (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a1 -> t), GHC.Num.Num a, GHC.Num.Num a1) => t
18:57:50 <ion> shachaf: infty should clearly be 10/0, not 1/0.
18:57:57 <shachaf> metasepia.....................................................................
18:58:01 <Bike> john_metcalf: in APA citation the usual is just to use the publisher information of the translator and then "originally published by..." in a parenthetical, i imagine it's similar with MLA
18:58:03 <boily> shachaf: you didn't see nothing.
18:58:06 <FireFly> metasepia: oh hush, you don't have to do *that*
18:58:18 <boily> FireFly: you neither.
18:58:28 <Bike> john_metcalf: if the citation is to a non-English language you just... cite it, i mean, not everyone is an english speaker anyway ;)
18:58:33 <boily> nobody saw rien pantoute. nothing. nada. empty. allez vous en!
18:58:47 <ion> Nobody try one of those expressions that result in a huuuuuuge error message with metasepia.
18:58:50 <olsner> boily: now you're in french
18:59:21 <FireFly> Oh, that's no fun. Okay, I'll be quiet
18:59:33 <Bike> channel's super deep today i see
18:59:43 <boily> FireFly: if you want to have fun, try to ~duckwhack.
18:59:50 <ion> bike: Deep in shit
18:59:55 <FireFly> ~duckwhack -- don't blame me
18:59:56 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
18:59:59 <Bike> why is noone excited about biorxiv, imo.
19:00:04 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:00:08 <metasepia> Rubber chickens were Holiday Rewards available on the 21 March 2005 for only two weeks.
19:00:17 <boily> FireFly: whacking the duck, like a googlewhack.
19:00:27 <ion> bike: We don’t care about them ugly sacks of mostly water that much.
19:00:39 <boily> (in that case, probably trying to find the weirdest definition you can get with a ~duck)
19:01:12 <Bike> self deprecation will endear you to no-one
19:01:33 <Fiora> Bike: what's cold spring harbor?
19:01:33 <boily> ion: I'm not a sack!
19:01:50 <Bike> Fiora: big biology laboratory.
19:02:11 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
19:02:11 <Bike> i mean, the main advantage being that people will actually take it seriously.
19:02:17 <Fiora> is there like, some reason that bio papers don't go on arxiv?
19:03:01 <Bike> some of the big journals (like Neuron and the Lancet) don't allow preprint stuff because they suck
19:03:09 <Bike> otherwise i dunno, but there's certainly not a lot of bio papers on arxiv
19:03:15 -!- fungot has joined.
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19:03:41 <Bike> «“The interesting question is: what the hell's wrong with biology?” says the University of California–Berkeley's Michael Eisen» lol.
19:03:53 -!- augur has joined.
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19:04:24 <Bike> Fiora: eisen gives a reason as that journal names are more important in bio. "Landing a paper in Nature, Science or Cell can make or break careers in biomedicine, more so than in the physical sciences"
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19:04:54 <Fiora> Bike: huh, that makes sense.
19:05:07 <Fiora> does nature do other physical sciences like physics or am I remembering wrong
19:05:34 <Bike> think they do.
19:06:52 <Bike> oh. well. the original paper on particles as waves was in Nature. so there we go
19:07:06 <Bike> «The neutron — J. Chadwick (1932). "Possible existence of a neutron". Nature 129 (3252)» i'm sure this was unimportant
19:07:30 <shachaf> perhaps arxiv's bar is too high
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19:07:51 <Bike> haha, the paper on the double helix wasn't even peer reviewed
19:07:59 <Bike> they were just like "welp they're right, let's publish"
19:08:27 <Fiora> "please, don't peer review this, you might find out that rosalin did all the work"
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19:10:25 <Bike> looks like mostly biology in the latest issues though.
19:10:32 <Bike> other than "Olivine crystals align during diffusion creep of Earth’s upper mantle"
19:11:11 <Bike> Fiora: oh, looks like biorxiv is gonna have comments, too
19:12:01 <Fiora> "[T]here are unarguable faux pas in our history. These include the rejection of Cerenkov radiation, Hideki Yukawa's meson, work on photosynthesis by Johann Deisenhofer, Robert Huber and Hartmut Michel, and the initial rejection (but eventual acceptance) of Stephen Hawking's black-hole radiation."
19:13:02 <Fiora> that was from wikipedia?
19:13:12 <Fiora> "Nature acknowledged more of its own missteps in rejecting papers in an editorial titled "Coping with Peer Rejection""
19:13:42 <Bike> you win some you lose some, i guess
19:13:57 <Fiora> gosh, some of these landmark papers. it feels so amazing and weird to look back on them
19:14:07 <Fiora> "Observation of a Rapidly Pulsating Radio Source" to think it all started in things like this
19:14:52 <ais523> biorxiv = biology version of arxiv?
19:15:06 <Bike> that's the actual name btw, i didn't make it up.
19:15:14 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why arxiv is restricted to maths/physics/CS anyway
19:15:26 <Bike> it's not, de jure
19:16:14 <Bike> part of it is major journals in the field not liking preprints, and part of it is biologists just not being open,probably
19:16:16 <ais523> what a pointless trigger
19:16:24 <Bike> but there's a few articles, like http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.0479
19:16:31 <Bike> which isn't even comp bio.
19:16:40 <ais523> I know someone who recently submitted a microbiology PhD, I'll ask them
19:17:07 <Bike> oh, though there isn't a category for qualitiative biology, is there.
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19:19:16 <Bike> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0057309 well, anyway, huh.
19:20:16 <ais523> hmm, how do I reboot a graphics card in Ubuntu, without rebooting the running system
19:20:24 <ais523> probably I have to restart X, which defeats the point of the exercise
19:20:29 <boily> graphic cards can boot?
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19:20:45 <fizzie> boily: I once restarted a graphics card by unplugging and replugging it.
19:20:54 <fizzie> I don't think I got any sort of image out of it, though.
19:21:12 <fizzie> It might've been an ISA card.
19:21:24 <Gregor> I once rebooted a graphics card by rebooting my machine.
19:21:38 <ion> I once rebooted a graphics card by restarting the universe
19:21:43 <Bike> i uh, once rebooted a man in reno,
19:21:44 <ais523> yeah, rebooting the machine would definitely work
19:21:58 <fizzie> Today's WebSDR encounter: an endlessly repeating "DESVO" in morse, of which Google seems to say just that, well, there is such a thing.
19:22:02 <boily> I cooked an apple pie by rebooting a graphics card.
19:22:28 -!- ^v has joined.
19:23:07 <ion> Good that it was an apple pie, because the cake is a lie.
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19:27:07 <boily> I wonder what would be the taste of an algebraic cake...
19:27:23 <Bike> entirely predictable?
19:27:55 <boily> like you'd exclaim “I knew it!” after tasting a bite?
19:29:38 <Koen_> "this cake is tasty, alright, but not transcendent"
19:30:31 <JWinslow23> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:MarioLANG#Good_sample_programs
19:30:42 <Bike> did you know, i was reading an old math paper the other day that went past algebraic and transcendent to "algebraic-algebraic", "algebraic-transcendental", and "hypertranscendental"
19:30:46 <Bike> the worst terms imo
19:32:24 <JWinslow23> To be or not to be, that is the question.
19:32:39 <Bike> and the answer is [ten minute argument about excluded middle"
19:32:44 <Bike> wow good bracketing me.
19:32:54 <myname> JWinslow23: http://files.mynery.eu/fib.m
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19:33:24 <Bike> mariolang is just going to make me think of generalized super mario man,im' sorry
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19:34:04 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGI-GqAK9c it's so good
19:34:19 <JWinslow23> Assuming Mario does not treat the " as solid?
19:35:29 <Bike> the people demand a reference implementation
19:35:54 <myname> i am hacking something together right now, but without fancy moving/debugging stuff
19:36:11 <ais523> there's a proof that generalized mario is NP-complete, somewhere
19:36:20 <ais523> although Sokoban is PSPACE-complete, which is better
19:36:21 <Bike> yeah that's what this video is.
19:36:39 <Bike> suddenly i feel like there should be an implementation in the form of a romhack.
19:36:47 <Bike> that could be fun to do...
19:37:47 <boily> fungot: could you please undangle Bike's bracketing?
19:37:47 <fungot> boily: and hvh sure is a url for this python movie suffice?' ' viel fnord linja on fnord. but have you considered compiling jvm bytecode? :d
19:38:14 <ais523> Bike: the NES doesn't have enough memory for that sort of thing, I don't think
19:38:29 <ais523> I guess you could romhack a port to one of the later consoles
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19:39:37 <Bike> not enough memory for brainfuck?
19:39:58 <ais523> SMB1 can't even scroll left
19:40:00 <JWinslow23> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGI-GqAK9c This video has popular is views of 10,249. I you think should see video Marioman.
19:40:07 <Bike> oh, i meant for mariolang.
19:40:25 <ais523> even then, the lack of vertical scrolling will hurt
19:40:35 <ais523> (I can't think of a NES game offhand that could scroll horizontally and vertically at the same time)
19:41:08 <Bike> mariolang programs can probably be re/written to fit in a reasonable height though
19:41:17 <elliott> Bike: okay I lost it at 2:40
19:41:28 <Bike> damn straight ya did
19:41:41 <ais523> in Metroid, it alternated between rooms that scrolled horizontally, and rooms that scrolled vertically
19:41:53 <ais523> you could really confuse it via glitching into a room an unexpected way
19:42:03 <ais523> and scrolling a vertical room horizontally or vice versa
19:42:25 <Bike> elliott: i don't know why paint store ave city makes me crack up but it does
19:42:34 <Bike> is there a metroidvania esolang
19:42:44 <elliott> oh. I cracked up at that too but forgot in the meantime
19:43:48 <Bike> sigbovik also had a "serious" paper where a guy implemented a game-solving AI by picking a few vectors in memory and optimizing them increasing, it's pretty awesome
19:43:59 <Bike> same program does ok at mario and at some shooter
19:44:40 <JWinslow23> Super Mario Bros, which about 1 or 2 bros that land in fantasy life with proof of NP complete Jumpman on a brick.
19:45:45 <JWinslow23> Super Mario Bros is star two plum-bobs named Luigi with Marioman. Here is a pict of Marioman.
19:47:07 <Bike> JWinslow23, read some learns http://sigbovik.org
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19:49:38 <JWinslow23> I is the studdentt at the school of middels.
19:50:18 <Bike> reading advanced papers is hard sometimes
19:50:28 <Bike> don't be afraid to go over it multiple times and work out some related simplified problems on paper
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19:52:46 <JWinslow23> Marioman went on a quest. He is very, very hunger from not having enough plumming jobs, so Marioman's Quest for Eat and Dollars. This spells QED, so we are done.
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19:55:33 <JWinslow23> Polynomial means "many names", because Polly is the name of a parrot, and nominal means many, as in my riting is have a nominal amount of flause.
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20:10:32 <nooodl_> <Bike> sigbovik also had a "serious" paper where a guy implemented a game-solving AI by picking a few vectors in memory and optimizing them increasing, it's pretty awesome
20:10:46 <nooodl_> the plot twist is that it' sthe same person responsible for generalized super mario man
20:11:03 <nooodl_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCurBYI_gY oh Bike's gone?? oops
20:11:20 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
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20:12:33 <Bike> nooodl: wait, really? i had no idea.
20:12:42 <Bike> this vargomax man is a rising star.
20:12:46 <fizzie> ais523: Super Mario Bros 3?
20:12:58 <Bike> lunar magic is for plebs, fizzie!!
20:13:07 <ais523> fizzie: it was a sequel to Super Mario Bros, released on the NES
20:13:13 <ais523> innovations included the ability to scroll left
20:13:18 <fizzie> ais523: It scrolls up and down too.
20:13:29 <ais523> huh, I actually didn't know that
20:13:36 <ais523> I guess it does on the world map, at least
20:13:44 <fizzie> Though not everywhere.
20:13:52 <Bike> oh, wait, i was thinking of the wrong game :/
20:13:59 <Bike> smb3 has those slides, i think that scrolled diagonally
20:14:17 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82TL-Acm4ts#t=0m30 -- sample.
20:14:22 <Bike> thisreminds me that my favorite game programming story is iD's first thing being mario for the pc, which everyone thought was impossible
20:14:39 <nooodl> "wizards and warriors" also had horizontal + vertical scrolling. no idea why i'm reminded of *that* of all things though
20:15:01 <nooodl> Bike: um i think you mean "dangerous dave"
20:15:46 <fizzie> If that's what Bike meant, calling it "Mario for the PC" is being very kind.
20:16:14 <nooodl> it's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4HJkeQSg0 this thing
20:16:51 <fizzie> Oh, I thought you meant the actual Dangerous Dave.
20:17:06 <Bike> that is the actual dangerous dave, it's a demo they made.
20:17:10 <Bike> and didn't sell, for obvious reasons
20:17:16 <fizzie> No, Dangerous Dave is a game.
20:17:29 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_Dave uh it's a series.............
20:17:36 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaAf8sarJok "the" dangerous dave
20:17:41 <nooodl> (wow the audio. god. loud)
20:18:00 <fizzie> Yeah, the warning wasn't kidding.
20:18:49 <fizzie> Anyway, it doesn't quite count as Mario for the PC.
20:19:26 <fizzie> (The id thing is more like it.)
20:20:08 <Bike> whatever, nerd.
20:20:46 <fizzie> Though I'm a bit suspicious of the claim that that'd be the first ever smooth-scrolling anything on the PC.
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20:24:24 <shachaf> Bike: how do you feel about Caltrain conductors
20:24:49 <Bike> I don't feel anything about anything.
20:26:00 <elliott> nooodl: hey, Ilari. (he used to be in this channel)
20:27:24 <boily> I... am being weirded out. I hate those moments where you grep for something that exists, that executes, that has side-effects, but the grep returns nothing.
20:30:42 <lexande> Bike: how do you feel about now being allowed on BART at any time
20:30:47 <lexande> oh, i guess you already answered that
20:31:09 <Bike> why are people asking me about things that are hundreds of klicks away from me
20:31:17 <olsner> boily: what do you mean by grepping for something that executes and has side-effects?
20:31:55 <boily> olsner: I'm grepping for a django custom command because I have some modifications to apply to it.
20:32:12 <boily> the command executes, it works, it does stuff, but grepping for its name returns zilch.
20:33:00 <lexande> Bike: where are you? we can talk about trains and bikes there instead if you want
20:33:17 <boily> in any case, time for shopping for mysterious stuff.
20:33:22 <olsner> boily: you probably misspelled it in grep, or forgot an -r
20:33:48 <boily> olsner: grep -Finr, in both the local project folder and /usr/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages.
20:34:15 <boily> but I really have to disappear. like, shopping, and now that I'm not sick, I can deliver parcels over to mysterious places.
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20:38:37 <Bike> lexande: eastern washington, land of nothingness
20:38:49 <Bike> there are freight trains but probably not passenger trains worth considering
20:39:12 <lexande> well there are daily passenger trains from spokane to seattle, portland and chicago
20:39:30 <Bike> spokane is too mainstream
20:40:00 <kmc> imo take up freight hopping
20:40:45 <Bike> there are free bike rentals, which is nice
20:42:43 <fizzie> I am imagining a bike on a bike.
20:43:04 <lexande> yeah, your nearest stations are spokane and kennewick, that's pretty bad
20:43:32 <Bike> kind of a shame since riding the train back home for thanksgiving would e nice
20:43:34 <fizzie> Bike: Possibly something like http://bostonbiker.org/files/2008/02/bike.jpg for example.
20:43:51 <Bike> i like her styel
20:43:58 <lexande> Bike: why are you in a place like that
20:44:12 <Bike> there's a school out here, believe it or not.
20:44:36 <lexande> yeah but there are schools in lots of places
20:45:29 <Bike> well, this one lets me work in a lab, so that's something.
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20:46:58 <nooodl> fizzie: wow the favicon *makes* it
20:55:43 <lexande> and the same school seems to have instances in spokane and vancouver wa?
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20:58:45 <JWinslow23> I made a BF program. It displays the ASCII values of infinitely many Fibonacci numbers.
20:58:46 <JWinslow23> >>>>>>++++++++++<<<<<<+.>>>>>>.<<<<<+.>>>>>.<<<<<[<[>>>>+<<<<-]>[>>>>+<<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[-<<+>>]>[-<<<+>>>]<<<.>>>>.<<<<<<>[<+>>>+<<-]>>[-]<<[-]>[<+>>+<-]>[-]<<]
20:59:19 <JWinslow23> I'll convert it to MarioLANG soon enough.
20:59:35 <myname> i'm pretty far with my interpreter
20:59:48 <myname> i am just fixing an error on [
20:59:49 <oerjan> ^bf >>>>>>++++++++++<<<<<<+.>>>>>>.<<<<<+.>>>>>.<<<<<[<[>>>>+<<<<-]>[>>>>+<<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[-<<+>>]>[-<<<+>>>]<<<.>>>>.<<<<<<>[<+>>>+<<-]>>[-]<<[-]>[<+>>+<-]>[-]<<]
20:59:51 <fungot> <CTCP>.<CTCP>........".7.Y...y.b..=..U.m../.. ..1.B.s..(.......y.)...m.8...._..@.!.a...e.H.....9.......X..M.B...`.1...S..h.}..b.G....."...x.E......A......M. ...
21:00:03 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
21:00:26 <JWinslow23> It has an actual command to turn it into actual numbers.
21:00:51 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling quite all right there?
21:01:21 <oerjan> you killed fungot. you bastards!
21:01:32 <JWinslow23> >>>>>>++++++++++<<<<<<+.>>>>>>.<<<<<+.>>>>>.<<<<<[<[>>>>+<<<<-]>[>>>>+<<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[-<<+>>]>[-<<<+>>>]<<<.>>>>.<<<<<<>[<+>>>+<<-]>>[-]<<[-]>[<+>>+<-]>[-]<<]
21:01:35 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
21:01:35 <fungot> FireFly: i think scheme could sneak in among fortran... they're certainly not concerned about either of those!
21:01:35 <fungot> fizzie: cool :p thanks :p
21:01:35 <fungot> oerjan: however i think i had one where our zed joined this channel. it _is_ scheme.)
21:01:40 <JWinslow23> It prints a newline after each number.
21:01:53 <FireFly> fizzie: he does indeed seem to feel quite all right
21:02:00 <fizzie> oerjan: That was some *really* well timed network lag, I think; it wasn't using any CPU time or anything.
21:02:20 <fizzie> FireFly: I never know what pronoun to use.
21:02:48 <FireFly> fungot: how do you prefer to be referred to as?
21:02:48 <fungot> FireFly: if we were to make a demo out of it
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21:11:16 <Bike> JWinslow23: have you considered writing a bf->mario compiler
21:11:46 <JWinslow23> I...don't think I can, but I HAVE considered it.
21:12:04 <JWinslow23> My main problem would probably be the programming language.
21:12:16 <JWinslow23> Also, nested loops. What to do, what to do...
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21:13:23 <Bike> haha, that'd rule.
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21:17:48 <JWinslow23> At the bottom of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:MarioLANG#Good_sample_programs
21:18:27 <Bike> most of these programs really are thin enough to fit in NES SMB, hrm
21:18:38 <Bike> I bet you need to go backwards for this one, though.
21:18:47 <JWinslow23> Well, I'll definitely think of the BF to MarioLANG thing, and I will check out myname's interpreter.
21:18:52 -!- JWinslow23 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:21:21 <myname> JWinslow has horribly timing
21:24:41 <oerjan> myname: i don't think anyone other than the author of MarioLANG knows how it should work, and hasn't been seen for years?
21:25:57 <oerjan> although the talk page has some hints.
21:26:25 <myname> i have an interpreter that works perfectly fine on the example code in the esolang wiki but produces errors on the code in talk
21:26:32 <myname> https://github.com/mynery/mariolang.rb
21:26:37 <oerjan> as does the initial example, which was written by the author.
21:27:28 <oerjan> i just highly expect the author never seriously thought about corner cases unless asked.
21:27:55 <Bike> gonna need an ANSI standards committee on this
21:28:00 <oerjan> or else he would at least have realized they needed specification.
21:29:24 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.6271 neat
21:31:58 * oerjan commends Bike for not linking directly to the pdf.
21:32:07 <Bike> isn't that so irritating?
21:32:34 <Bike> like man, think of the metadata :(
21:33:11 <oerjan> if they had at least put it in a subdirectory so it was easy to find the abstract.
21:34:10 <fizzie> I believe http://sprunge.us/cGCe is a bf-to-Mario translation, though untested and possibly unoptimal. (I avoided trying to walk across the " ends of elevators since I don't know what that does.)
21:35:36 <oerjan> you should put it on the wiki
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21:36:54 <fizzie> I guess I could put that to the talk page, though I don't have time to implement an actual translator today.
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21:37:49 <oerjan> well it's a TC proof, and TC proofs go on the article page unless enormous.
21:38:32 <fizzie> But what if it happens to be wrong! (I guess someone will edit it, that's what'll happen. 'orrible.)
21:39:10 <oerjan> i guess you might put it on the talk page until there's an interpreter to test it with.
21:46:35 <fizzie> Welp, I put it on the talk page in a very informal manner.
21:52:53 <oerjan> <Bike> Fiora: cold spring harbor is doing a bio version of arxiv!! super exciting <-- arxiv isn't for all sciences?
21:53:43 <Bike> when was the last time you saw a bio paper on arxiv
21:53:48 <Bike> other than when i linked one earlier.
21:54:30 <kmc> does the crabputer count as a bio paper
21:54:44 <Bike> the crabputer is in a league of its own
21:55:09 <oerjan> it sidesteps all categories
21:56:39 <FireFly> I think the crabputer is the epitome of interdisciplinary science
22:00:07 <fizzie> Related to an earlier topic: http://morphcat.de/blog/?do=se&e=8
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22:09:01 <oerjan> <Bike> wow good bracketing me. <-- fixed it
22:10:21 <Bike> what about the quote
22:11:18 <oerjan> there is no quote. nothing to see here. move on.
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22:27:37 <shachaf> "wow good bracketing me." -- Bike
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23:16:01 * pikhq mutters at Pokemon...
23:16:22 <pikhq> Friend Safari Ditto is hard.
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23:23:40 <JWinslow23> How can I run the Ruby interpreter, myname?
23:24:47 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:25:04 <myname> JWinslow23: well, with ruby? :D
23:25:21 <myname> it takes a file as argument
23:25:34 <JWinslow23> Yeah. I don't know how to run a Ruby program.
23:25:51 <myname> it has a shebang, so basically ./foo should work
23:26:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: istr he uses windows
23:26:32 <myname> JWinslow23: i tried your hello world, it works
23:27:30 -!- Bike has joined.
23:27:48 <Bike> fizzie: i think this is the first time i've seen a major difference between ntsc and pal
23:28:09 <Phantom_Hoover> didn't SSBM have a bunch of fiddly little differences between the two
23:28:18 <myname> i am kinda disappointed with my fibonacci solution
23:28:25 <myname> it should work smaller
23:29:31 <myname> too bad, mariolang does not have a "skip the following command, no matter what"
23:37:02 <JWinslow23> I downloaded the interpreter and version 2.0.0 of Ruby at http://rubyinstaller.org/downloads/ . What now?
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23:41:12 <Bike> oh shit, i accidentally got vim to have multiple frames.
23:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> JWinslow23, you realise we're probably all running linux here
23:43:16 <Phantom_Hoover> or at least those of us prepared to help you with ruby
23:46:07 <oerjan> i have a hunch that's not going to work exactly as given.
23:46:30 <oerjan> JWinslow23: i think it might be best to open a command prompt window, anyway.
23:47:20 <oerjan> although i always find it awkward to get to the right directory for things from there...
23:47:41 * oerjan is using windows, but hasn't tried ruby on it.
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23:48:24 <oerjan> if the ruby installer has put ruby in the PATH, things will be easier.
23:49:25 <oerjan> (you then should only need to type "ruby nameofmyname'sinterpreter yourmariolangprogram"
23:50:01 <oerjan> well you can prepend that, then.
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23:51:44 <oerjan> C:\Ruby200\bin\ruby.exe, almost as in Phantom_Hoover's link
23:52:15 <oerjan> but you need a command prompt first.
23:53:13 <JWinslow23> It says "No such file or directory", though.
23:54:18 <JWinslow23> When I type in "C:\Ruby200\bin\ruby.exe mariolang.rb HelloWorld.m"
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23:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> you have changed directory to wherever your files are, right
23:55:09 <oerjan> that would be necessary.
23:55:24 <oerjan> JWinslow23: what does the "dir" command show
23:55:24 <Bike> you said you were familiar with the command prompt.
23:55:41 <JWinslow23> Oh. I didn't know about the command dir.
23:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover> JWinslow23, you can give filenames as relative or absolute
23:56:11 <Bike> for future reference: you are not familiar with the command prompt
23:56:17 <JWinslow23> It says the directory of C:\Users\Owner
23:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> on windows absolute filenames start with drive letters like C:, anything else is relative
23:56:41 <myname> you want to cd to whereever your files are
23:56:47 <oerjan> JWinslow23: are the files you want to run in there too?
23:57:12 <Phantom_Hoover> relative filenames are stuck on the end of whatever the output of dir is
23:57:17 <JWinslow23> oerjan, no. They are in C:\Ruby200\bin
23:57:53 <oerjan> JWinslow23: i'm not talking about the ruby interpreter itself, but the mariolang interpreter and mariolang program.
23:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> JWinslow23, you want to cd there and also put your own code somewhere that isn't there in future
23:58:11 <JWinslow23> They are in C:\Ruby200\bin . I moved them there.
23:58:32 <oerjan> JWinslow23: ok then cd C:\Ruby200\bin
23:58:42 <Phantom_Hoover> you shouldn't actually put them there, that directory is for the ruby implementation
23:58:55 <JWinslow23> You know what? I took Phantom's advice and moved them back.
23:59:24 <JWinslow23> C:\Users\Owner\Desktop\Josiah's stuff\Esoteric Programming Languages\MarioLANG
00:02:03 <JWinslow23> Which reminds me, I have to rework my Fibonacci loop.
00:02:20 <myname> i am doing a really pretty one right now
00:03:50 <oerjan> JWinslow23: if you do echo %PATH% , does the result contain C:\Ruby200\bin ? if so you can just write ruby instead of the whole filename.
00:04:55 <JWinslow23> Yes, perfect...Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahav!
00:05:08 <myname> JWinslow23: take a look at the talk page
00:05:28 <oerjan> hey maniackal laughters are not done enough here. also:
00:05:32 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
00:06:14 <myname> i think i cannot get it any smaller
00:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> JWinslow23, you might also want to try dragging files from the file manager to the command line, sometimes that fills in the pathname for you but IDK if windows does it
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00:07:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: works for me
00:07:43 <myname> it is horribly slow, though
00:07:45 <oerjan> also thanks, i didn't know that
00:08:09 <oerjan> actually i dragged from the desktop, but probably same thing.
00:08:27 <myname> it took 15 seconds to calculate 10946
00:09:04 <Sgeo> Racket, Chicken, or Guile?
00:09:09 <Sgeo> I gather that Guile is more interactive than the other two, but the other two generally have more libraries. explicit/implicit renaming seems [Chicken] seems... almost too simple.
00:09:22 <Sgeo> Also, is it just me, or is there something of a war in the Scheme community between PLT and everyone else?
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00:09:38 <myname> i am going to make some nice debugger in hopefully not so far future
00:11:36 <JWinslow23> You can actually see Mario as he's going through the level.
00:11:38 <myname> with .net integration?
00:12:09 <JWinslow23> The only interaction is the program inputted.
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00:13:29 <JWinslow23> It just makes Mario so you can see him instead of you coding him blind.
00:13:30 <myname> oh, my interpreter doesn't really respect walls as walls :D
00:13:51 <myname> i.e. +|: will just output 1
00:14:28 <JWinslow23> Good. It's starting to give me a rash.
00:15:00 <myname> have fun, i am going to sleep now
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00:16:06 <oerjan> JWinslow23: it's not fair to make rash judgements.
00:17:36 <JWinslow23> it's not fair to make rash judgements.
00:17:59 <oerjan> ^echo it's not fair to make rash judgements.
00:17:59 <fungot> it's not fair to make rash judgements. it's not fair to make rash judgements.
00:20:12 <Sgeo> Is Rexx... interesting in any way?
00:20:36 <myname> JWinslow23: which one?
00:23:47 <myname> STDIN.read may be the problem
00:23:50 <JWinslow23> Also, my countdown program displays a Mars astrology symbol instead of boom, although it does the countdown just fine.
00:26:11 <myname> the code doesn't look like it's supposed to BOOM
00:26:21 <myname> you print 13, which should be a newline
00:26:39 <myname> don't know what that is
00:27:59 <myname> JWinslow23: the problem of the truth machine is located
00:29:06 <JWinslow23> The countdown equates to ++++++++++>++++++++++[.-<.>]+++++++[<++++++++>-]<.+++++++++++++..--. in BF.
00:29:53 <drlemon> Idea: BrainFunc. Brainfuck with definable functions that are defined by characters.
00:30:12 <drlemon> Also, my friend says BFGUI would be amazing, where you define the color of the pixel by memory
00:30:12 <JWinslow23> myname, what is the problem with the truth machine(s)?
00:30:29 <myname> JWinslow23: change STDIN.read to STDIN.gets
00:30:59 <JWinslow23> I'll change the code. You do the same thing and reupload it.
00:35:50 <JWinslow23> Never mind, I redownloaded, and it works great.
00:37:19 <JWinslow23> Oh, and your Fibonacci program works great!
00:37:20 <oerjan> drlemon: have you seen http://esolangs.org/wiki/Paintfuck%2B
00:38:05 <JWinslow23> Yeah, and there is no interpreter. It is an excellent idea, though.
00:38:06 <myname> it basically does (a, b, 0) -> (a+b, 0, b) -> (0, a+b, b) -> (b, a+b, 0)
00:38:07 <drlemon> Oh, there was a language that was brainfuck, but each character was any word of a certain length. It had a wiki article, but i can't recall the name
00:38:35 <oerjan> no one can remember all the brainfuck derivatives
00:39:25 <oerjan> JWinslow23: there is plain Paintfuck though
00:39:53 <JWinslow23> oerjan, I know that there is plain PF, and I know the interpreter for that, but wouldn't it be nice if there were colors?
00:40:03 <myname> JWinslow23: now enjoy exploring the wonderful world of mariolang
00:40:28 <JWinslow23> myname, I will make a 99 Bottles of Beer program.
00:40:45 <JWinslow23> It will be a dread to chart, though. I'll need help shortening it.
00:41:30 <myname> a simple was would be long paths for the strings to print
00:46:40 <myname> an obligatory brainfuck interpreter should be possible
00:48:23 <myname> it seems pretty hard, actually
00:49:18 <myname> i cannot think of a way to do "move mmemory pointer to cell x"
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00:57:31 <oerjan> myname: just convert one of the bf self-interpreters.
00:58:23 <myname> that is changing the code
00:58:29 <myname> i want to interpret it
00:59:14 <oerjan> if you convert a bf self-interpreter to mariolang, you get a bf interpreter in mariolang.
01:01:49 <myname> okay, i just noticed that termbox bindings for ruby doesn't seem to be that great
01:05:33 <myname> JWinslow23: i have great ideas on how to improve the language
01:07:00 <myname> i thought of making the whole floor destroyable blocks
01:07:23 <myname> i.e. if you jump at it from below it will be removed and you are able to change execution
01:08:54 <JWinslow23> Huh. Maybe there can be a floor block just for that.
01:09:22 <JWinslow23> Also, this is already confusing, the 99 Bottles.
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01:16:43 <Sgeo> help im having trouble figuring out how to use youtube
01:16:58 <JWinslow23> What? What are you having trouble with?
01:17:36 <Sgeo> Figuring out if I can buy a payment-required YouTube video for someone else
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01:18:20 <JWinslow23> I've never got to s payment required YouTube video.
01:18:39 <Sgeo> Also, why are websites able to detect whether Incognito is in use?
01:19:31 <Bike> lol, do sites do that
01:20:04 <JWinslow23> To be honest, things got weird when Sgeo said "help im having trouble figuring out how to use youtube".
01:20:29 <JWinslow23> "Figuring out if I can buy a payment-required YouTube video for someone else" cleared it up.
01:20:34 <Sgeo> Bike: when I try to watch the video in Incognito, it says "Incognito mode is not supported for playback. Please use a non-incognito browser window."
01:20:39 <Bike> welcome to sgeo, i guess
01:20:46 <Bike> Sgeo: what makes you think that's on youtube's side
01:21:39 <Bike> on a pay-for video, i assume he means
01:22:28 <Bike> only fools pay for things. fuck capitalism. fuck money. live
01:23:13 <Sgeo> My goal is to watch the video in question with someone else using a synchtube clone
01:23:24 <Sgeo> I have reason to believe it will work if we both own the video
01:30:14 <oerjan> science: always in need of funding.
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01:34:00 <JWinslow23> I need help with a 99 Bottles program, so volunteer on the wiki.
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01:51:58 <kmc> youtube has pay videos now?
01:52:01 <kmc> what is the world coming to
01:52:25 <Bike> you've been able to buy movies for like, over a year...
01:53:06 <kmc> because I haven't known about it!
01:54:01 <kmc> perhaps the fact that every day I make google searches like "boardwalk empire s04e07 torrent" has clued googletube into the fact that I'm not interested in paying for content
01:54:19 <kmc> on the other hand I've bought a fair amount of music through Google Play
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02:23:15 <Bike> https://archive.org/details/historicalsoftware
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03:17:05 <Sgeo> holy crap Microsoft Flight Simulator is ancient?
03:18:25 <Bike> ooh, i knew it was old but not that it predated windows.
03:18:39 <Bike> jesus, apple ii
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03:21:00 <Sgeo> I want to see the peter pan game
03:21:32 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdVPp6HccTY
03:22:36 <Sgeo> You drew a mouse with your mouse!
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03:23:30 <Bike> i ship winston and jazz
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03:44:54 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/8NrKrrd9 can anyone solve this puzzle
03:45:43 <Bike> it;s encrypted
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03:46:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ralist: not found
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03:52:42 <Fiora> Bike: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/346.pdf
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03:54:11 <Bike> I have no idea what this says.
03:54:33 <Fiora> it's a thing where they cracked ECDSA on a smartcard
03:54:48 <Fiora> by using power analysis to get the low bits of each nonce used in the algorithm
03:55:06 <Fiora> and then making an algorithm to use that to get the key I think? I'm not entirely sure >_<
03:56:01 <Bike> power analysis meaning like, sidechannel?
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04:40:13 <Sgeo> What would a function language where you're discouraged from using identity directly be like?
04:41:25 <ion> https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1376474_10151598855976923_133257084_n.jpg
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05:06:02 <Sgeo> ($ $define! a-drastic-thought "One special form instead of zero -- alternatively, two kinds of sexprs, instead of one. One kind of combiner, instead of 2. Whether treated as applicative or operative depends on the form embedded in ($ or no $). No more accidentally exposing internals to operatives when expecting applicatives. Probably drastic deviations from Kernel needed to make workable. How do ($ ...) forms look as a sexpr to things that
05:06:02 <Sgeo> get passed them?"
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05:26:18 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe ($ ...) is an olist
05:26:54 <Sgeo> (olist 1 (+ 1 2)) == ($ 1 3)
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06:00:44 <Sgeo> Need to write a C(++) program. It should embed an R(6/7)RS Scheme interpreter
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06:13:36 <kmc> [3112078.456689] cdc_acm 1-2:1.1: This device cannot do calls on its own. It is not a modem.
06:13:42 <kmc> you will not go to space today
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06:22:07 <shachaf> kmc: conal's talk today about parallel scans was good
06:22:35 <kmc> where was it
06:22:53 <shachaf> here are the slides: http://conal.net/talks/understanding-parallel-scan.pdf
06:22:59 <shachaf> but a lot of the talk was talking
06:24:52 <shachaf> i liked the thing about bottom-up trees and nonregular types and all that
06:26:04 <shachaf> i wonder what this non-regular freemonadish business is about
06:43:11 <kmc> "What's new in Google Voice: ... Added warning when attempting to send text messages to 911"
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08:02:13 <ais523> wow, that was scary/confusing for a while
08:02:37 <ais523> I tried to log onto the University computer system, and discovered my home directory didn't exist
08:02:52 <ais523> but it turned out that I'd connected via the teaching proxy out of habit, rather than the research proxy
08:02:58 <ais523> and given that I'm not teaching any more…
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10:40:16 <Taneb> It is simultaneously trivial and quite hard to do GEDCOM in Haskell
10:40:23 <Taneb> Because GEDCOM is pretty much a huge ADT
10:40:28 <Taneb> But a really huuuuge one
10:44:35 <Taneb> What is it with you and that thing you're into
10:55:21 <fizzie> "You must call TIC without an output argument before calling TOC without an input argument."
10:56:52 <Taneb> fizzie, that sounds suspiciously on-topic
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11:42:55 <fizzie> Taneb: No, no, it's just MATLAB.
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13:19:15 <boily> why? what happened?
13:19:48 <Taneb> I'm not eating very well
13:20:42 <Taneb> I am not very good at telling myself "Now is when you eat"
13:24:06 <Taneb> Why do we say "Turing complete" and not "Church complete"?
13:25:36 <boily> always eating, never eating, or eating the wrong things?
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13:38:33 <HackEgo> Mawu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:38:46 <Mawu> Anyone available for some clarifications on whitespace ? :-)
13:39:06 <oerjan> hm i don't particularly know whitespace, but maybe
13:40:03 <Mawu> I'm trying to write a simple tool in cpp that takes a string as parameter and output a whitespace script that output the string
13:40:28 <Mawu> But I'm having some trouble understanding the correct syntaxe of the PUSH (Space Space Tab [Number])
13:41:45 <oerjan> um i see no Tab in the spec
13:42:13 <fizzie> (It's a combination tutorial-spec.)
13:42:27 <oerjan> i guess. since i found no other spec.
13:42:49 <boily> that word should be homologated. I think the coffeescript docs do that.
13:43:03 <oerjan> but as i read it, it should be [Space Space [Number]]
13:45:07 <oerjan> also, it seems from the examples that the [Number] is in binary, with the initial 0=Space obligatory.
13:45:53 <oerjan> e.g. push 11 is [Space][Space][Space][Tab][Space][Tab][Tab][LF]
13:46:06 <fizzie> oerjan: The initial space is the sign.
13:46:21 <fizzie> "The sign of a number is given by its first character, [Space] for positive and [Tab] for negative."
13:46:38 <fizzie> That's the problem with tutoripecs, they're not always terribly well organized for a reference work.
13:47:12 <oerjan> right, i was confused because there was no table with the number syntax
13:47:48 <oerjan> Mawu: anyway, that's it, then [Space] [Space] [sign] [number in binary] [LF]
13:48:06 <oerjan> and sign=Space if positive.
13:49:30 <oerjan> "Many commands require numbers or labels as parameters. Numbers can be any number of bits wide, and are simply represented as a series of [Space] and [Tab], terminated by a [LF]. [Space] represents the binary digit 0, [Tab] represents 1. The sign of a number is given by its first character, [Space] for positive and [Tab] for negative. Note that this is not twos complement, it just indicates a sign."
13:49:36 <boily> what about labels' unicity? are they converted to numbers first, or is e.g. 0001 different from 1?
13:49:56 <oerjan> boily: not as i read it.
13:50:14 <oerjan> i mean, they're sequences of spaces and tabs, not numbers.
13:50:25 <boily> oh. just sequences.
13:50:44 <oerjan> "Labels are simply [LF] terminated lists of spaces and tabs. There is only one global namespace so all labels must be unique."
13:53:40 <Mawu> You guys are the best
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13:56:05 <Mawu> So to push 'H' (72 - 1001000) on the stack it would be : S S T (push) S (positive sign) T S S T S S S (1001000) ?
13:56:29 <oerjan> Mawu: there is no T in the push command
13:56:49 <oerjan> and you need a final LF.
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13:57:52 <Mawu> Oh right, the push is only a space
13:58:06 <oerjan> then that should be it
13:58:25 <Mawu> Oh and forgot a leading 0, no ?
13:58:36 <oerjan> Mawu: no, that was my mistake.
13:58:42 <oerjan> i didn't know about the sign.
13:59:16 <Mawu> 'cause on the whitespace tutorial it said that PUSH 1 is : S S S T LF
14:00:05 <oerjan> yes i was reading those examples too, but i misinterpreted it because there were no negative ones.
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14:02:23 <oerjan> <Bike> http://pastebin.com/8NrKrrd9 can anyone solve this puzzle <-- are you Mafingre and ban evading
14:03:25 -!- asie has joined.
14:08:57 <boily> oerjan: is Mafingre one of the ion-lickers?
14:09:41 <oerjan> he's the guy who spams encryption puzzles
14:10:13 <boily> there are some weird people out there...
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14:51:54 <Taneb> Am I allowed to nominate another language to be featured?
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14:54:59 <oerjan> Taneb: yes, see talk page.
14:55:24 <oerjan> (i interpret that as yes.)
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14:59:51 <boily> @tell oerjan why the ocular suffering?
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16:43:42 <Taneb> I've almost finished the first season of Supernatural
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16:44:47 <Taneb> And now I'm going to make something to eat
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16:47:09 <quintopia> i'm paying someone to make me eats
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16:53:17 <nortti> do you know any good free ssh app for apple's iDevices?
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16:54:51 <boily> what the fungot is wrong with my system. back from lunch, and kernel panic.
16:54:51 <fungot> boily: http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/ fnord nice rating :) see ya, and thank you for your help
16:54:52 <quintopia> nortti: i used one once, it think.
16:55:09 <boily> quintopia: wrapped!
16:55:38 -!- FreeFull has joined.
16:55:41 <boily> you know, paper, colours, stuff, wrapped.
16:56:47 <boily> as in, you shall receive it shortly.
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17:01:34 <boily> home is where the fungot is, or something like that.
17:01:34 <fungot> boily: on plt scheme...
17:01:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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17:01:43 <boily> fungot: I don't care about plt scheme.
17:01:43 <fungot> boily: ( new-if t 3 7)) can also be formulated using the fnord fnord alphabet! 8d things i'm interested in scheme-to-forth compilation as well; i don't know c++
17:02:06 <boily> fungot: is the fnord fnord alphabet related to tocharian B?
17:02:07 <fungot> boily: niec thing about mzscheme is how easy it is
17:02:32 <quintopia> fungot: i'll let mz know his scheme is so easy
17:02:33 <fungot> quintopia: open discussion about all things seems to change upon context... for instance
17:02:54 <quintopia> ah, good thing this discussion is CLOSED
17:02:57 <boily> thanks, Captain Fungobvious.
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17:04:26 <quintopia> fungot: remind me, are you -98 or -93?
17:04:27 <fungot> quintopia: ( because we got bored and wandered off.
17:05:17 <quintopia> where's a fizzie when you need one?
17:05:42 <boily> fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie ♪
17:06:33 <quintopia> i had a great idea with some other folks for a new esolang the other day
17:06:41 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:06:55 <quintopia> with safety of C, the concision of Java, and the logic of PHP
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17:14:42 <quintopia> nortti: no. C++ has strong typing. this uses PHP-style typing. you can specify new types by giving their size explicitly. there is no pass-by-reference or name, just value. if you want to pass a function, you need to declare a type as big as the function, allocate enough memory to contain the function, and pass the entire block of memory containing the function. slightly safer than C i guess since there's no pointers.
17:15:14 <olsner> mix in haskell and use lazy evaluation for everything
17:15:34 <myname> quintopia: also, implicit casting with strange comparison operators
17:15:47 <quintopia> myname: like i said, the logic of PHP
17:16:26 <quintopia> also, for added safety, all functions have explicit logical contracts, assertions that must hold, else runtime error
17:16:45 <myname> also, every function should take at most 2 arguments
17:17:21 <quintopia> all functions take one argument: a Dictionary
17:18:00 <olsner> hmm, dictionary? that's too much like keyword arguments... maybe you could permute the function arguments of every function call in some way that depends on the call site?
17:18:02 <myname> that does not clutter your global namespace as much
17:18:27 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
17:18:50 <myname> like: instead of f(a,b,c,d) you have to call f(a,(b,c,d)) which calls g(b,(c,d)) which calls h(c,d)
17:19:19 * boily subtly enfizzies the wisdom repo
17:20:44 <quintopia> olsner: you have to allocate and construct the dictionary explicitly before every call. very Safe.
17:21:18 <olsner> a dictionary is just like keyword arguments though, it's excessively clear what goes where
17:21:30 <fizzie> boily: I accidentally marked the email announcing that as deleted, the subject line looked so spammy.
17:22:09 <quintopia> olsner: the dictionary allows only numerical keys
17:23:43 <myname> quintopia: suggestion from someone: implement exceptions but do not make stack unwielding
17:24:11 <nortti> how would exceptions even be implemented with that kind of system?
17:24:12 <quintopia> oh we had this figured out already
17:24:29 <quintopia> every function must explicitly declare a handler function for every possible exception
17:24:45 <quintopia> there is no "throwing up the handler hierarchy"
17:25:20 <quintopia> too easy to abuse exception hierarchies
17:26:10 <boily> throwing exceptions up is too traditional. you need to be able to throw exceptions sideways.
17:26:42 <Bike> throwing an exception makes a different thread handle it while the thrower just keeps charging along
17:27:01 <Jafet> Swallowing exceptions down
17:27:21 <Bike> i love you too
17:28:41 <quintopia> alos there are classesm but there's no protected/private/public stuff. every method and field explicitly references which other classes are allowed to use it. it's Fully General and Very Safe.
17:29:11 <boily> Jafet: with explicit “throws SomeException” à la Java, you could pile exception onto exception onto exception in callees' scopes :D
17:30:13 <Jafet> Lexical cereal scoop
17:30:31 <Jafet> It is possible that I am hungry
17:30:39 <quintopia> more than that. every field and method has both blacklists and whitelists of which classes can use it. if a class is not on one of the two lists, that is a runtime error
17:31:34 <Jafet> In my hunger, this sounds like crossing a compiler ir with jvm bytecode
17:34:34 <Bike> intermediate representation
17:35:08 <metasepia> ir definition: information retrieval.
17:38:25 <Jafet> Your class system needs to be more modular. Allow inner class definitions. However, classes can only refer to their inner classes, as any other access would violate encapsulation. This makes actual code reuse impossible.
17:39:18 <boily> of course you can reuse code. copypasta!
17:46:52 <olsner> you can also use macros or templates to generate copies of code
17:47:42 <Jafet> This can be alleviated if you introduce a language feature called something like "generics", but you don't have time to implement that just yet.
17:48:01 <boily> there should be something insaner than templates.
17:49:20 <olsner> PHP is well-known for its builtin template system - just use <? ?> to nest a block of code that prints code to put in the outer program
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17:58:37 <JWinslow23> I'm making my own MarioLANG 99 Bottles program that WORKS. Still working on the BF.
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18:07:21 * boily singularly stays subtly stoic, so silent...
18:07:43 <JWinslow23> OK, how do you make messages say stuff like that?
18:08:40 * JWinslow23 thanks avid for finding another time-waster
18:09:27 * JWinslow23 doesn't know what avid means by a "nod"
18:10:28 <Bike> acknowledgement
18:11:00 <boily> JWinslow23: don't listen to Bike. it's a kind of bird.
18:11:06 <JWinslow23> Well, I'm almost done with the beginning of the BF 99 Bottles program to convert to MarioLANG.
18:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover> your work ethic is far too good to be a true esolanger!
18:22:00 <JWinslow23> No, it's very hard! I just started a few minutes ago.
18:23:52 <Phantom_Hoover> the 'proof' of sumamoito's turing-completeness on the wiki is still a reference to the IRC logs of me and elliott sketching out an interpreter for BCT
18:27:26 <JWinslow23> >>>>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]>+++++++++[<+++++++++++>-]>++++[<++++++++>-]>+++++++[<++++++++++++++>-]>>++++[<++++++++>-]+>++++++++++[<+++++++++++>-]>+++++++[<++++++++++++++>-]>>++++[<++++++++>-]+>++++++++++[<+++++++++++>-]>++++++++[<+++++++++++++>-]++++++++++>>>+++++++[<++++++++++++>-]+>++++++++[<++++++++++++>-]>++++[<++++++++>-]+>++++++++++[<+++++++++++>-]>++++[<+++++++++++>-]++++++++++>>+>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]+>++++++++++[<++++
18:27:52 <JWinslow23> Apparently 535 is over the IRC limit for lines.
18:28:32 <Phantom_Hoover> use sprunge.us or whatever if you need to move more code
18:28:56 <Jafet> Clearly you need to make the program shorter.
18:28:57 <nooodl> i like http://bpaste.net/
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18:29:23 <boily> long live pastebin.ca!
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18:35:21 <fizzie> JWinslow23: Made a brainfuck convert-o-matic: http://sprunge.us/KTUd
18:36:01 <Bike> haha, it's practically the same
18:36:35 <fizzie> Seems to work for 99 bottles, too.
18:36:44 <fizzie> It's not quite anywhere yet.
18:36:50 <fizzie> I'll need to put it somewhere.
18:37:07 <fizzie> sprunge links time out a bit too fast, which is a shame.
18:37:12 <JWinslow23> Also, I usually do .m instead of .mario
18:37:25 <fizzie> I don't think there's a standard extension.
18:37:46 <boily> JWinslow23: .m usually is some objective-C code.
18:37:58 <fizzie> boily: MATLAB, you peasant.
18:38:18 <boily> fizzie: I SHUN MATLAB.
18:38:54 <myname> fizzie: i do think you could make it more compact if you alternate directions on loops
18:39:56 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched ...
18:40:36 <myname> also, insert missing [
18:41:02 <myname> you will need preparsing for that
18:41:30 <fizzie> I suppose, but to reiterate, sounds a bit like work.
18:42:03 <JWinslow23> And the BF-MarioLANG thing, it works for nested loops?
18:42:03 <fizzie> I'm just wondering where to put this.
18:42:04 <myname> i do think the trickiest part is to get the width you can use
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18:42:34 <fizzie> JWinslow23: It works for 99bob, which has some nested loops, so presumably.
18:42:40 <JWinslow23> Also, is a quine POSSIBLE in MarioLANG?
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18:43:13 <myname> JWinslow23: go figure!
18:44:06 <myname> i doubt it, but i never wrote a quine ever
18:44:13 <JWinslow23> Do you know how far I got on a BF quine?
18:44:24 <Bike> "uh you have to be able to write a quine by kleene's recursion theorem"
18:46:44 <myname> JWinslow23: any idea on how mario should act if he hits a wall?
18:47:17 <Koen_> maybe just try to walk against it
18:47:30 <Koen_> with his legs moving but him staying in place
18:47:34 <JWinslow23> myname, Mario should just think of a wall as a "do not pass no matter what" command.
18:47:57 <Koen_> or maybe he's smart and decides to change direction when he hits a wall
18:48:02 <myname> JWinslow23: i.e. standing still and posibly repeat the active command unlimited?
18:48:24 <myname> Koen_: that would make @ pretty useless
18:48:29 <Koen_> also you should watch Under the Dome, it has plenty of cars crashing into walls
18:49:42 <myname> i may implement that, but i think it's pretty useless
18:50:08 <JWinslow23> Hey, I'm not WhiteWolf! I didn't put walls in the language!
18:51:36 <fizzie> https://gist.github.com/fis/7159823#file-bf2mario-py -- there you go.
18:52:04 <fizzie> In retrospect, adding the 99bob examples in there was kind of a bad, because they are first in sort order.
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18:53:42 <myname> lol, how many columns does it have
18:54:23 <myname> plenty of space for optimising
18:55:38 <Koen_> wait, do arrows allow Mario to fly?
18:55:52 <Koen_> "the arrow told me to go left, I DON'T CARE IF THERE'S NO GROUND"
18:56:26 <myname> Koen_: actually, in my implementation they do
18:56:27 <fizzie> Koen_: In the existing interpreter, I believe they do.
18:56:51 <myname> Koen_: do you consider this wrong?
18:57:00 <Koen_> well I guess that's consistent with the examples
18:57:17 <fizzie> myname: And I guess you can jump without standing, too?
18:57:18 <Koen_> I remember Mario jumping with ^ to reach an arrow
18:57:39 <Koen_> so ^ alone is an infinite loop?
19:00:25 <myname> also, elevators only lift to the closest on top, not to the topmost
19:00:56 <Koen_> can't they lift you down?
19:01:22 <myname> specification jut say, if it can move up, it will move up
19:01:51 <myname> but you can still do something like
19:02:14 <myname> the lowest elevator will move to the " above, not the topmost one
19:02:25 <myname> the higher elevator will move to the topmost "
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19:02:50 <Koen_> what if there's a third # on top of all this
19:02:52 <myname> if the topmost " wasn't there, both will move to the " between them
19:03:00 <Koen_> and Mario takes it first, so it has to move down to the first "
19:03:14 <Koen_> then Mario makes his way to the second #, will it still move up?
19:03:32 <Koen_> cause there's probably an elevator already occupying the upper "
19:03:44 <Koen_> so Mario would be crushed!
19:03:47 <myname> i did not consider them occupying
19:04:00 <Koen_> okay, imagine the following:
19:04:01 <myname> i.e. i assume they will move to their starting position
19:04:29 <myname> which is what you want in the bf2mario
19:04:39 <myname> because loops would be horrible otherwise
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19:05:53 <Koen_> http://pastebin.com/7zuhsdhm << so here, when Mario comes back
19:06:02 <Koen_> he will just fall?
19:06:23 <JWinslow23> I still don't know how to run the python script.
19:06:25 <Koen_> well I guess in that example that doesn't matter
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19:12:22 <Koen_> well do you have a python interpreter or compiler on your computer?
19:12:23 <Bike> bsaically like with ruby, but with 'python' instead of 'ruby' in the command
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19:15:40 <kmc> Bike: teaching by analogy
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19:16:50 <Bike> it'll never catch on
19:17:09 <fosap2> Hi. I'm looking for a JSON based language. It uses Json as a syntax as lisp uses s-expressions as syntax. I can't find it anymore
19:18:10 <fizzie> It probably would not need many changes for a 2.x Python, possibly only the print function thing.
19:19:18 <Bike> fosap2: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Myth ?
19:19:39 <JWinslow23> Never mind, works perfectly now that I know the syntax.
19:20:34 <Bike> well, tha'ts not really like lisp at al.
19:20:36 <fosap2> Bike: No, it was pretty boring, lispy.
19:20:57 <Bike> that seems to be the only article on the site mentioning json.
19:21:45 <fizzie> fosap2: http://www.jsol.org/ ?
19:23:26 <JWinslow23> Wow, and the generated code doesn't look valid. Not for 99BoB.
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19:35:54 <boily> I'd say learn French, but any language in “F” should be fine.
19:36:41 <Bike> F#, though, that's a shitty key
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19:42:11 <Bike> no, f sharp. you know, g flat
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19:42:35 <myname> JWinslow23: optimize the hell out of these 99 bottles
19:42:41 <JWinslow23> Maybe we can make an interpreter for Tic Tac Toe.
19:43:16 <JWinslow23> I will try to do something with the 99BoB program. Until then, I'll explore other stuff.
19:44:03 <JWinslow23> Can someone make an interpreter for Tic-Tac-Toe?
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19:46:18 <boily> JWinslow23: little quick question: why the 23? it mysteriously seems to be a popular nick suffix, as with ais523.
19:47:36 <boily> @tell ais523 were you born in Undecember?
19:47:51 <JWinslow23> Someone should do something with http://esolangs.org/wiki/Drive-In_Window, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pancake_Stack, and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tic_Tac_Toe.
19:48:09 <JWinslow23> Until then, I'm on the wiki regularly, so post stuff on the talk pages.
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21:04:13 <fizzie> Was Googling for [[ "compaq presario cds633" price ]] (we had one, was trying to locate a price) -- got 5 results, of which one was from #esoteric logs.
21:04:23 <fizzie> Presumably after this two of them will be.
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21:17:41 <myname> Koen_: bit late, but mario will just stay on top of the "
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21:19:22 <myname> Koen_: is that something you don't agree to? the example code in the wiki looks a lot like " are solid
21:20:40 <fizzie> I sort of thought that "intuitively" the "s in the example were solid because the elevator as a whole has risen.
21:21:08 <fizzie> But that's not the sort of thing that one'd like to implement.
21:21:13 <myname> that would be pretty hard to implement in comparison
21:22:35 <myname> also it would break nearly every code in the discussion that uses loops
21:25:04 <fizzie> Many of them tend to have explicit arrows over all "s so I don't think it'd matter all that much. (Disclaimer: haven't looked at the discussion so much.)
21:25:04 <myname> i.e. if you assume that the elevator rises and will stay on top so you can walk over it, you could not use it another time because you would get squeezed until you bring it back down (which is pretty useless) OR you make the spot where the elevator was non-blocking which i find a bit unintuitive
21:26:26 <fizzie> It could just move back immediately when you get off the "s. But I admit that's a bit vague.
21:27:19 <Koen_> myname: well I had always assumed the elevator really was moving
21:27:37 <Koen_> so basically, the # and " get switched
21:28:08 <myname> Koen_: how do you get back down? you should have a ! both on top and on bottom
21:28:46 <fizzie> I'm sure it's *possible*. Especially if the elevator moves as a whole slab. It'd just make writing loops really quite annoying.
21:28:50 <myname> it would make 1-wide elevators practically useless
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21:29:05 <myname> yeah, and interpreting it, too
21:29:21 <Koen_> well then we have to use 2-wide elevators
21:29:28 <myname> i may try that, but personally i do not find it very relevant
21:29:38 <Koen_> no, but that's more realistic
21:29:45 <Koen_> the elevator really moved
21:29:48 <Bike> i thought they moved like elevators in SMB.
21:30:05 <Bike> you know, an infinite stream in one directionn.
21:30:14 <myname> Bike: that's what i thought, too
21:30:27 <myname> i imagined the " more like a point where you get off
21:31:04 <fizzie> So how was your interpretation of walking over "s? Drops down unless there's an explicit arrow?
21:31:56 <myname> i just assumed you walk over one bar of the infinite stream
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21:32:43 <fizzie> Arguably that kind of means that you'd proceed horizontally every time you enter an elevator "shaft".
21:34:05 <fizzie> Well, I mean, like http://sprunge.us/EZPH
21:34:26 <lambdabot> boily said 6h 34m 35s ago: why the ocular suffering?
21:34:34 <fizzie> If the """s are just drop-off markers and you walk over them because you'd walk over one bar of the infinite stream, the same should logically apply to all intervening spaces.
21:34:43 <Koen_> I thought having a ! over a # was needed because the relative speeds of the elevator and mario were unspecified
21:35:03 <oerjan> @tell boily i've had an unusal amount of eye strain and problems of focusing the last few days.
21:35:26 <myname> fizzie: in theory, yes, but that would make timing relevant, which is really annoying for both the coder and the interpreter
21:35:41 <Koen_> so if mario enters an elevator without stopping, we won't know at which altitude he walks out (and probably falls)
21:35:55 <fizzie> myname: It would not make timing any more relevant than the way you can walk across ###s and """s without moving vertically at all unless you stop in place.
21:36:44 <myname> fizzie: you say you should just "disable gravity" between " and #?
21:36:47 <oerjan> @tell boily right now also a slight headache, despite just sitting down at the laptop. might be connected. also i'm worried it might be because i've taken _too much_ painkillers lately.
21:37:04 <fizzie> myname: I'm not saying you should, I'm just saying there's an argument to be made for that, in the name of "realism".
21:38:06 <fizzie> (Though if one went that far, a floating ! on the same height should also probably make Mario rise up.)
21:38:11 <myname> fizzie: that would be the most realistic and implementable way i can think of
21:38:43 <myname> also it shouldn't break anything existing
21:39:02 <myname> likely i will implement that
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21:41:17 <Koen_> maybe not disable gravity, but trigger the elevator
21:41:35 <Koen_> so the elevator will start moving up when you step between it and "
21:41:47 <Koen_> exactly as if you had stepped exactly over the #
21:42:48 <Koen_> so mario will either be lifted up to the ", (because he fell onto the moving-up elevator), or walk out of the column at some point (if he did not encounter a !)
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21:43:25 <Koen_> I seem to recall the specifications explicitly stating that the relative speeds of mario's and the elevator's were unspecified
21:43:43 <Koen_> so the coder shouldn't know if mario manages to jump out of the elevator or not
21:44:13 <myname> that would be a great source to create randomness
21:44:42 <Koen_> well, "unspecified" and "random" aren't exactly synonyms
21:45:19 <myname> but "unspecified" can also mean "it has a different speed whenever you move onto it"
21:45:38 <fizzie> All the (related) existing code probably does assume you can walk over an arbitrary sequence of ###s without moving vertically at all, unless you explicitly stop.
21:46:13 <Koen_> you can if mario is infinitely faster than the elevator :)
21:46:32 <fizzie> Another thing I was sort of wondering when writing the bf thing (it turned out to be not relevant) is whether "[ x" should skip over the x or not (if it would skip at all). It just says "next command".
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21:47:33 <myname> fizzie: interesting, my current implementation actually just ignores the next cell, whatever that is
21:47:39 <oerjan> i recall when making Malbolge Unshackled, i took great pains to ensure the unspecified length increase could not be relied on to be either random or not random.
21:47:44 <fizzie> Oh, that was to the earlier comment.
21:47:47 <myname> fizzie: the code that looks like you can walk over ###
21:48:28 <fizzie> Well, all the [! kind of things do seem to assume you can at least walk over a single # without moving up/down.
21:48:58 <fizzie> I guess that's about it.
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21:49:07 <fizzie> It's not like there's a large body of MarioLANG code around.
21:49:19 <oerjan> Unshackled.hs:76:9: parse error on input `<-' <-- seems it needs some updating.
21:49:34 <myname> so you could say it moves the tick after you move on top of it
21:49:47 <olsner> hmm, found a 90MB file called music.raw in a random directory
21:49:52 <olsner> I wonder what it is and which format
21:50:59 <fizzie> If you buy the "endless stream, always in motion" argument, the official elevator example kind of assumes that you can walk over """ without anything nasty (like falling down a bit when the elevator disappears or whatever it does) happening.
21:51:13 <fizzie> olsner: Raw PCM tends to be quite easy to identify.
21:51:55 <olsner> ah, aplay -f cd did play it ... I suspect demo music, but I don't recognize it
21:52:01 <myname> fizzie: if should however make it possible to walk over any gap between " and #
21:52:08 <fizzie> (Basically just "go with whatever sample size and endianness that gives you small numbers at the beginning/end and a reasonable-looking envelope overall".)
21:52:08 <myname> because the elevator could be there
21:52:20 <kmc> TIL there's a wchar_t version of memmove(3), namely wmemmove(3)
21:53:22 <kmc> I guess its semantics differ if your buffers overlap by half of a wchar_t?
21:54:12 <fizzie> wchar_t * __wmemmove (s1, s2, n) wchar_t *s1; const wchar_t *s2; size_t n; { return (wchar_t *) memmove ((char *) s1, (char *) s2, n * sizeof (wchar_t)); } weak_alias (__wmemmove, wmemmove)
21:54:24 <kmc> maybe not, then
21:54:30 <kmc> i'm slightly scared that you have libc source handy like that
21:54:30 <fizzie> I'm sure there's probably a good reason why that doesn't have a prototype.
21:54:53 <kmc> glibc contains code known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects, and other reproductive harm
21:55:10 <olsner> hmm, I suspect two wchar_t* aren't allowed to overlap with half a wchar in general
21:55:13 <Fiora> I wonder why that exists
21:55:16 <kmc> Rust should support a #[prop_65]; annotation
21:55:26 <Bike> public service announcement: there is an extinct coelacanth genus called "Rebellatrix". en public service announcement
21:56:20 <kmc> a byte-at-a-time left-to-right memcpy is also a correct memmove right?
21:56:24 <Bike> doesn't rust just cause tetanus?
21:56:35 <olsner> I think the direction depends on where the overlap is
21:56:41 <Bike> well, not "just", tetanus is pretty nasty.
21:56:56 <olsner> Bike: rust doesn't cause tetanus, tetanus does
21:57:00 <kmc> olsner: oh, I guess so :/
21:57:06 <fizzie> A correct memmove is a correct memcpy, however.
21:57:43 <fizzie> (For all them lazy people.)
21:58:21 <Bike> i associate tetanus with stabbing myself with rusty nails. i wonder why that is
21:58:25 <kmc> I guess memmove just copies in one direction or the other
21:58:36 <kmc> based on comparing the pointers first
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21:58:45 <Bike> tetanus is a weird disorder btw
21:58:55 <shachaf> memmove should delete the old memory, clearly. otherwise it's copying
21:59:09 <Bike> "he rust itself does not cause tetanus nor does it contain more C. tetani bacteria. The rough surface of rusty metal merely provides a prime habitat for C. tetani endospores to reside in, and the nail affords a means to puncture skin and deliver endospores deep within the body at the site of the wound." oh
21:59:11 <shachaf> and it should just remap pages when it can
21:59:25 <fizzie> kmc: Fun fact: you can't compare the pointers in a strictly-portable-C implementation of memmove, because they might point to different objects.
21:59:48 <shachaf> fizzie: Is it possible to write memmove in strictly-portable-C?
22:00:09 <Bike> so rust doesn't /cause/ tetanus, just provides a prime habitat for (organisms which in turn generate neurotoxins which in turn generate) tetanus.
22:00:19 <fizzie> shachaf: I think it is, it just takes O(n) memory.
22:00:22 <Bike> please factor this into #[prop_65]
22:00:25 <kmc> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57608585-93/is-google-building-a-hulking-floating-data-center-in-sf-bay/ they have a large barge with a radio antenna tower on it that they can charge up and discharge
22:00:30 <olsner> hmm, is memmove supposed to work across different objects?
22:00:40 <shachaf> fizzie: Oh, right, copy to a separate buffer first.
22:00:44 <fizzie> olsner: Sure, why not?
22:01:17 <shachaf> memmove ought to be the default.
22:01:26 <shachaf> Which is why it's the default in Rust!
22:01:34 <olsner> fizzie: maybe to allow memmove to be implemented efficiently in pure c?
22:01:58 <olsner> or perhaps just to be asses in general and make more stuff undefined
22:02:09 <fizzie> olsner: "memmove -- Copies n characters from the object pointed to by s2 into the object pointed to by s1. Copying takes place as if the n characters from the object pointed to by s2 are first copied into a temporary array of n characters that does not overlap the objects blah blah blah."
22:02:14 <shachaf> olsner: It would be much less useful that way.
22:02:41 <olsner> shachaf: that was pretty much why I suspected it might be the case
22:04:27 <fizzie> Some people might prefer there to be a third memcpy/memmove variant that's always a bytewise left-to-right copy, though, because you can do repeating things with it.
22:04:59 <fizzie> Maybe it's a bit of a niche.
22:05:38 * oerjan fixed Unshackled.hs (it just needed a couple of LANGUAGE pragmas. well probably. i didn't actually _run_ it, just compile.), for all those waiting to program it.
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22:06:01 <kmc> shachaf: did you see that Rust passed issue #10,000 recently
22:06:02 <kmc> hi zzo38 !
22:06:06 <kmc> how are you?
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22:06:29 <zzo38> I am OK, do you have another question?
22:06:44 <Bike> Yes. Do you think "Rebellatrix" is a cool name.
22:07:01 <olsner> fizzie: used often enough for compression that it would probably be useful to apply some of all the work that went into memcpy on that
22:07:13 <Bike> A coelacanth genus.
22:07:25 <shachaf> kmc: that's a lot of issues
22:08:32 <shachaf> oh, php passed 2^16 bugs recently
22:08:36 <shachaf> according to https://bugs.php.net/
22:08:40 <fizzie> olsner: I presume lot of the work (all those SSE copy things) is rather inapplicable. But I guess they could do *something* clever about it. (On the other hand, it might be a generic "memrepeat" interface, because that has more freedom for implementation perhaps.)
22:08:59 <fizzie> I hope they celebrated bug #65536.
22:09:29 <fizzie> "Bug #65536: getimagesize() returning wrong value for IMG_PNG"
22:09:34 <fizzie> That sounds kind of boring.
22:10:06 <fizzie> "Thank you for taking the time to write to us, but this is not a bug."
22:10:27 <olsner> at work we got to build 65536 just the other day
22:10:28 <fizzie> "Thank you for playing. Better luck next time!"
22:10:35 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:11:31 <olsner> (fun fact: the field of symbian's version thingy (we used) to put build numbers in is a signed 16-bit int)
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22:13:24 <fizzie> Fun fact: tried to run some HTK-using scripts today, and was missing a file list file, so somehow something somewhere decided to use all the files in my home directory (recursively) as the source features.
22:13:37 <fizzie> That included a lot of pdfs, jpegs and whatnot.
22:13:53 <fizzie> Not sure if it's HTK's fault or the (third-party) scripts' fault.
22:14:15 <Bike> that's impressive
22:14:56 <olsner> sounds like a potentially interesting use of markov thingies, if it could manage to produce working jpegs and pdfs from it
22:15:31 <fizzie> Sadly, it just complained of every file that it isn't a HTK parameter file.
22:16:03 <kmc> olsner: yeah, my friend had the same problem (do you work at moka5.com ???)
22:16:12 <kmc> olsner: this was the basis of their rush project to switch to Git
22:16:42 <olsner> I do not work at moka5.com :)
22:17:46 <olsner> we rageswitched to Git when creating branches started taking a whole day
22:18:13 <fizzie> taskFiles=`ls *tmp* ` # okay, it's the third-party script.
22:18:20 <olsner> (after some time of preparing for a reasonable migration, though)
22:18:23 <fizzie> (It managed to go to ~/tmp/ with that.)
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22:19:09 <fizzie> Because of tmpDir=`mktemp -d -p $(dirname $scpFile)` failing and cd $tmpDir being a plain "cd", I think.
22:19:21 <fizzie> (scpFile is the file that wasn't there.)
22:21:42 <fizzie> htkallas@spa-ws160:~$ ls
22:21:43 <fizzie> C:\nppdf32Log\debuglog.txt
22:21:47 <fizzie> That thing is kind of annoying me.
22:22:46 <olsner> I wonder how many commits there are in total on (e.g.) github
22:23:06 <fizzie> (I think it's a fopen("C:\\nppdf32Log\\debuglog.txt", "w"); somewhere, and their mechanism for enabling logging is for the user to make that directory, because they assume the fopen to fail if it doesn't exist.)
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22:26:24 <oerjan> <fizzie> (scpFile is the file that wasn't there.) <-- sounds likely, but which scp is it.
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22:30:06 <fizzie> olsner: 65341534 PushEvents in the http://www.githubarchive.org/ timeline, according to a fancy Google BigQuery thingathing.
22:30:24 <fizzie> (I don't know what these events are.)
22:30:40 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/HZBg anyway.
22:31:17 <fizzie> It's collecting statistics on the timeline thing, so no counting of individual commits, sadly.
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22:56:08 <zzo38> I did have the idea, of a kind of MUD game. One is that each character (both PC and NPC) belong to an account, and each account has no more than one character. Account names are separate from character names. If your character dies you can either create a new one or accept a resurrection if someone does it (which costs a lot, though). PCs and NPCs are mostly treated equivalently, although PCs are characters owned by an account that owns itself.
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22:58:09 <zzo38> To calculate experience points earned if one character kills another, first calculate the "kill score", which is: $$k={\rm max}\left(\left\lfloor pf{\rm e}^{\root3\of{v_L-(v_W+v'_W)}}-x_W\right\rfloor,x_W+1\right)$$ where k = kill score, p = PK multipler, f = effort multiplier, v_L = loser's character value, v_W = winner's character value, v'_W = winner's artificial value, x_W = winner's experience level.
23:00:11 <zzo38> After that, look up the pair of the winner and loser's account numbers (not character numbers) in the kill high score table, and subtract that from the kill score in order to determine how many experience points the winner earns (if it is negative, it is truncated to zero). If this kill score is greater than the recorded value it is then updated.
23:02:10 <zzo38> The PK multiplier is 250 if NPC kills NPC, 1000 if PC kills NPC or NPC kills PC, and 4000 if PC kills PC. The effort multiplier is a number from 1 to 2 depending on how hard you try to win.
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23:02:37 <zzo38> Character value is calculated by adding and multiplying things such as ability scores, species, skills, etc.
23:02:40 <zzo38> Do you like this so far?
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23:06:27 <Koen_> zzo38: how do battle happen?
23:06:52 <zzo38> Koen_: Well, you have to find someone and attack them, or cause them to be dead in another way.
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23:07:37 <zzo38> Or they do it to you instead, if that is the case.
23:07:49 <Koen_> I think the attack mechanisms are more important than the formula used to calculate the experience points!
23:08:38 <zzo38> Yes, I just mentioning how to calculate XP for now. Quests are worth a lot more than battles, although quests too would have a high score table so that you cannot gain the points again each time.
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23:10:24 <zzo38> In addition, when you create a new character in the same account, your new character can start at any start point you have unlocked, can have a level anywhere from zero to one less than your old character's level, and any options for the character's name, skills, species, ability scores, etc are automatically filled in but can be edited.
23:12:11 <zzo38> If killed more than twice in succession you aren't forced to lose more than two levels though; it is limited to two. In addition, the new character is invulnerable to being killed by any account that has killed your account in the past five minutes (unless you are in the home of whoever killed you).
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23:15:56 <zzo38> All of these rules are designed to avoid getting too many experience points by killing the same guy over again a lot of times and to avoid someone stopping you from passing some point with every new character you create.
23:16:41 <zzo38> Players who have been disconnected for 60 seconds cannot be attacked but may still be robbed.
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23:21:14 <zzo38> There are no PK-safe areas. Player killing is allowed everywhere, and is worth more points than attacking NPCs, so it is worth it. It is legitimate to hide and kill someone when they are attempting a quest so that you can do it instead, to band with another player and then fight them when they least expect it, and so on; these are all considered legitimate tactics.
23:22:49 <zzo38> Is these specification OK for you so far?
23:24:04 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of game so far? I wanted to play but didn't find any
23:24:39 <Koen_> the only thing I can think of is urbandead
23:26:21 <Koen_> there are no npc though
23:26:37 <zzo38> In addition, changes to the environment are permanent, not reset like in many games (so some quests may be impossible to complete more than once), it is alignmentless, there can be human character and monster character and many other kind, also class-less, no auto-fight-back, and you need not use all of your points to create a character; you can discard some.
23:27:01 <zzo38> If you die, you lose all of your money, bank, equipment, etc, but if your new character can find where your old one died you may be able to rob the corpse.
23:27:23 <zzo38> (Your score is kept, and so are all of your options.)
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23:28:48 <Koen_> though this may be heavy on the memory if players die a lot?
23:29:10 <Koen_> since you'd have to store all the corpses and things they were carrying
23:29:50 <zzo38> Yes, although corpses can decompose, objects can be destroyed, etc
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23:33:39 <zzo38> And piles of equivalent things can be stored as a single record
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23:50:03 <kmc> zzo38: is \left( supported in Plain TeX?
23:50:05 <kmc> I did not know
23:50:36 <zzo38> kmc: \left and \right are primitive TeX commands.
23:52:12 <kmc> why does memset(3) take its byte argument as an 'int'?
23:53:01 <nortti> normal c convention, maybe
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23:53:31 <Bike> i thought C used chars as bytes (and ints as characters)
23:53:58 <Fiora> is it specified what happens if you pass memset smoething bigger than a byte?
23:54:34 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5919735/why-does-memset-take-an-int-instead-of-a-char has a suggestion
23:55:15 <Bike> that's uh, hm.
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23:55:34 <Koen_> fiora: void *memset(void *b, int c, size_t len); The memset() function writes len bytes of value c (converted to an unsigned char) to the byte string b.
23:55:35 <Bike> answers fiora's question too.
23:57:47 <kmc> i was wondering if it had something to do with ambiguous signedness of char, but you could always write 'unsigned char'
23:57:58 <kmc> ah "Without a prototype, you can't pass a char to a function" welp
23:59:10 <Koen_> I guess without a prototype you can't pass onlything except ints
23:59:28 <Koen_> I wonder how that works if you need a pointer
00:01:23 <kmc> maybe all prehistoric C implementations had sizeof(int) == sizeof(void*)
00:01:42 <kmc> or used register calling convention and therefore were more flexible
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00:05:48 <oerjan> Koen_: it's not quite that bad http://c-faq.com/ansi/argpromos.html
00:07:20 <oerjan> also this also applies to printf arguments http://c-faq.com/varargs/promos.html
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00:07:24 <Koen_> It is arguably much safer to avoid ``narrow'' (char, short int, and float) function arguments and return types altogether.
00:07:50 <Koen_> so basically just use ints
00:08:04 <Koen_> (and doubles but who needs them)
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00:11:09 <Koen_> now I want to try writing prototypes for printf here and there
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00:24:12 <zzo38> class (Eq s, SetType__ s) => SetType s where { type SetOf s :: *; ... }; constructSetType :: forall a c. (forall b. SetType b => SetOf b -> (b -> c) -> a) -> [c] -> a; ... Do you expect things like this is OK?
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00:35:33 <oerjan> i think today's picture in wikipedia needs a nsfl warning.
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00:37:29 <elliott> smallpox is kind of not safe for life, yeah.
00:38:28 <kmc> hey smallpox virus is life too
00:38:32 <kmc> (lets argue about that now)
00:38:33 <kmc> also, yikes
00:38:44 <oerjan> i am old enough to have been vaccinated, i think.
00:39:22 <kmc> vaccines are pretty cool
00:39:55 <Bike> wow, i just noticed that photo was taken barely two years after the war
00:40:05 <kmc> i should get more of them
00:40:10 <pikhq> I don't *think* I've been vaccinated for smallpox. But when I was young my dad was in the Army, and so we were overseas, so... maybe?
00:40:50 <Fiora> I think I'm old enough that I wasn't vaccinated for chicken pox at least? ^^;
00:41:12 <pikhq> Yeah, I wasn't vaccinated for chicken pox either.
00:41:47 <coppro> I just got chicken pox. Does that count?
00:42:02 <Bike> i got it and my parents marketed me to their social circle as spreading it. Only 90s Kidz Remember
00:43:06 <oerjan> i've had chicken pox. when i was 18.
00:43:26 <Fiora> I think I must have been like 10
00:43:35 <oerjan> i think i have scars in my face that are from it.
00:44:35 <oerjan> also i have a scar on my shoulder which is from some vaccine, perhaps the smallpox one?
00:46:49 <pikhq> Closest to a smallpox vaccine I *know* I've been is that I've been near someone with cowpox.
00:50:34 <Koen_> is $ in haskell just a prefix-notation parenthese for function application?
00:51:19 <zzo38> Actually $ in Haskell is the infix form of id, but specialized for function application
00:51:45 <Bike> it just has the lowest associativity because i dunno screw parens.
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01:34:24 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/jiGA
01:53:51 <zzo38> Is this Haskell program OK?
02:07:44 <kmc> isthishaskellprogramok.com
02:08:03 <kmc> zzo38: do you not like layout syntax?
02:08:15 <Bike> YES (humorous subtitle)
02:08:38 <kmc> howfuckedismyhaskellprogram.com
02:09:22 <kmc> that really should say "=ω" not "=∞" don't you think
02:09:28 * kmc fixes it using Element Inspector
02:09:48 <zzo38> kmc: I personally don't like layout syntax (and a few other people also don't like).
02:10:11 <shachaf> kmc: does your Element Inspector have a save button
02:10:29 <kmc> zzo38: why not?
02:10:36 <kmc> the Firefox OS dev tools do, though
02:10:48 <kmc> (which is just the Firefox element inspector thing)
02:10:59 <Bike> «onclick="f(this); return false"»
02:11:04 <Bike> now what's this then
02:11:05 <zzo38> kmc: I don't really know how to explain, but you can look up some reasons why some people don't like it, at least.
02:11:09 <kmc> f(this) indeed
02:11:44 <zzo38> When I ask about this Haskell program, I mean about its use for the purpose I intended to use it for.
02:12:20 <Bike> what is the purpose you intended to use it for
02:14:07 <zzo38> Bike: Something like a constructor Graph :: forall x y. SetType x => SetOf x -> (x -> y) -> (x -> x -> Bool) -> Graph y; which isn't really a correct definition of a graph, but hopefully can explain clearly enough the use I intended?
02:14:36 <Bike> i didn't read it. just thought maybe that would help kmcists.
02:15:18 <zzo38> Do you understand what I mean now, at least?
02:15:18 <Bike> is x -> x -> Bool the "this is an edge" checker? what's y for?
02:15:31 <zzo38> Bike: The y is in case the nodes have labels attached.
02:15:49 <zzo38> (If they don't then y would just be ())
02:16:14 <Bike> i don't understand why a graph isn't just a set of vertices and a set of edges
02:16:27 <shachaf> data Graph e v = Graph (e -> v) (e -> v)
02:17:23 <Bike> time to understand shachaf's definition: approximately 40 seconds
02:17:27 <zzo38> But, what I mean is if you want to make up such a "unique set" which is only this useful
02:17:44 <zzo38> Bike: I can understand more easily though, in a few seconds
02:17:53 <zzo38> copumpkin: What is that, then?
02:17:55 <Bike> did you just call me stupid
02:17:58 <zzo38> Yours I don't know
02:18:15 <zzo38> Bike: No, I just meant that I realized this specific purpose faster at this specific time.
02:18:21 <shachaf> Bike: Well, mine is a different sort of graph, with multiple edges and loops and so on.
02:18:40 <Bike> i saw an article in a bio journal about hypergraphs the other day. that was odd
02:19:01 <shachaf> did you know it's just a functor from the category •⇉• to Set
02:19:04 <copumpkin> zzo38: it's a generalized relation, covering all sorts of odd graphs
02:19:05 <zzo38> copumpkin: Your definition I do not understand. Do you explain it?
02:19:10 <shachaf> and the natural transformations are graph homomorphisms
02:19:16 <zzo38> I don't know the notation.
02:19:31 <Bike> why, another concept is just a functor? wow. wow. everything is explained. everything is clear now
02:19:42 <copumpkin> well, it is, but not for computation
02:19:54 <zzo38> copumpkin: But what is "Set" here then? I do not understand this dependent types very well.
02:20:03 <shachaf> zzo38: Set is like * in Haskell (I assume)
02:20:17 <copumpkin> so for every pair of values of that type
02:20:31 <copumpkin> which may be empty (in which case there's no edge)
02:20:53 <copumpkin> you could have arbitrary values living in the resulting type
02:21:01 <copumpkin> so it might have more than one edge
02:21:21 <copumpkin> you can define a simple type on top of that that takes the transitive closure, or reflexive transitive closure
02:21:40 <copumpkin> the latter also being "the free category of a graph"
02:22:41 <shachaf> Bike: should i write that as ((Bool,e) -> v) or as (e -> Bool -> v)
02:22:53 <shachaf> Bike: or as (e -> (v,v)) "that would be too simple"
02:23:05 <Bike> iunno, the original was cute.
02:23:54 <Bike> i'm not used to having edges as their own thing. maybe that's it.
02:24:05 <zzo38> copumpkin: OK, but I do not quite understand how you would have values of a type produce another type like that, it doesn't sense to me quite a lot though.
02:24:32 <Bike> "clearly i need to deal with infinite graphs more often"
02:24:50 <Bike> are nonlinear dynamications functors
02:24:51 <shachaf> the other day a bus driver made the asl sign for "no" and i understood
02:25:02 <Bike> am i a functor
02:25:17 <Bike> i am barbed wire
02:25:39 <zzo38> I tried reading about depending type but I don't quite understand it. I have read a Haskell library that says it defines a "dependent sum type" and I can understand that library at least, but not what it has anything to do with dependent types. Actually when I tried to explain when I was asking how to make this program I made I was told about dependent types too, which I don't know.
02:25:58 <zzo38> copumpkin: What is it called, the things that my program is defining, though?
02:26:29 <copumpkin> dependent sum types can be quite confusing
02:26:51 <shachaf> copumpkin: sum types r confusing, other types less so
02:27:14 <zzo38> copumpkin: Well, I can understand the Haskell library which says dependent sum types, even though I am not understanding the dependent sum types itself.
02:28:48 <zzo38> What I tried to define is that a value contained in some datatype is kind of like another type and a set of values in that type, where the only thing done on the values is check if it is equal to another one, and pass to a function that expects it.
02:29:08 <zzo38> It isn't really making up a new type each time, but it fakes it.
02:29:29 <copumpkin> zzo38: a dependent sum type is like a pair in haskell, where the type of the second half can refer to the value of the first half
02:29:36 <copumpkin> it's a strange concept if you're not used to it
02:29:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: why aren't there things that map between natural transformations
02:29:56 <zzo38> I was also refered to reflection, which also tries to fake to make up a type but uses unsafeCoerce. My program does not involve unsafeCoerce.
02:30:08 <zzo38> copumpkin: Well, I know that, because I have read that program, and that is what it is.
02:30:11 <copumpkin> shachaf: they exist, but they're unnatural and we don't talk about them
02:30:22 <Bike> a functor on the category of small natural transformations
02:30:30 <zzo38> Such things are done in Haskell easily enough anyways, using forall, type parameters, and other stuff like that.
02:30:51 <shachaf> Bike: is that a sequence of words that makes sense or just a sequence of words
02:30:59 <Bike> well consider the speaker
02:31:07 <Bike> an endofunctor. endomonoid. coexofunctor
02:31:17 <shachaf> endonote: don't listen to Bike
02:31:58 <Bike> imo the worst bike
02:33:02 <shachaf> imo i've ridden some p. bad bikes recently
02:34:15 <zzo38> copumpkin: Do you think my program does correctly what I intended though, at least?
02:36:36 <Sgeo> :/ #chicken is too quiet
02:36:57 <copumpkin> zzo38: not sure! what did you intend?
02:37:15 <Bike> he already answered that a while up.
02:37:21 <Sgeo> kmc: I wonder if you would like explicit-renaming/implicit-renaming macros
02:37:47 <Sgeo> There's no DSL, you write a function that receives a few functions that aid in hygiene
02:37:51 <Bike> what are your thoughts on yaoi
02:37:53 <Sgeo> So you're writing in pure Scheme
02:38:19 <copumpkin> Bike: I looked and didn't understand
02:38:26 <Bike> well, i didn't either
02:38:34 <Bike> low standard though
02:38:38 <zzo38> copumpkin: I can try to explain, perhaps, as, the function makes up a new set of its own type (actually Int, although it pretends it is a new type), and where values of this type can only be compared for equality.
02:39:54 <zzo38> Is this explanation good enough?
02:41:04 <zzo38> My example with the Graph constructor is one example (which doesn't actually define a graph though, and isn't really quite intended to anyways), but it is example of how it might be used, I mean.
02:41:25 <copumpkin> it's odd how a superclass refers to its subclass in methods
02:42:45 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose such thing is odd, but it does work.
02:42:56 <copumpkin> I don't doubt it, just trying to make sense of it
02:43:15 <zzo38> (The SetType__ class is private, so that you can never use it)
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02:45:22 <zzo38> The only type that has an instance is also private, meaning that values of such a type are only used in a polymorphic type signature
02:45:45 <copumpkin> so you force people to only use the class interface
02:47:05 <zzo38> Although the point is also that you cannot check for type equality either, as if every call to emptySetOf and so on are of a different type which nobody knows.
02:48:45 <copumpkin> I think it makes sense, although it might pay to figure out how to make your exposed Set interface take the "contents" parameter directly
02:49:08 <Sgeo> Is it just me or is this paper backwards
02:49:13 <Sgeo> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=E9CB45AD79DE7268512C8A60D0C1A0BB?doi=10.1.1.53.5184&rep=rep1&type=pdf
02:49:53 <copumpkin> oh wait, I was standing on my head
02:50:46 <shachaf> Just print it in this order and it'll be fine.
02:51:25 <zzo38> Maybe you can configure the printer driver to work with it
02:51:31 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is it saying that er macros are limited?
02:52:53 <zzo38> copumpkin: I think this program I made up in there not quite complete, since a few operations are missing, isn't it?
02:53:20 <zzo38> hich things can be constructed using only the exported interfaces and which cannot be?
02:53:47 <Bike> Sgeo: plz to link to the actual citeseer page instead of a pdf.
02:55:13 <Sgeo> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.53.5184
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02:56:08 <shachaf> (it won't help but i might as well ask)
02:56:40 <Bike> I dunno. I still don't get hygenic macros at all. Maybe I should ask around #scheme for programs that really need them.
02:58:12 <Sgeo> I want to recommend trying to understand syntax-case, but syntax-case comes with unneeded extra sugar called syntax-case that might hinder understanding
02:58:28 <Bike> Well I think i get the basic idea of syntax case.
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03:01:40 <Sgeo> Just to clarify: syntax-case and not syntax-rules? syntax-case is the more complicated one that allows breaking hygiene
03:02:09 <Bike> Yeah, you specify what symbols are supposed to be literal and which ones aren't, right.
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03:03:45 <Sgeo> syntax-rules allows that too, but syntax-case is more flexible than that. And easily allows arbitrary Scheme computations
03:04:02 <zzo38> My other (unrelated) question was how to make pattern matching with rosetrees, in SQL or in a C program that can be export functions to use with SQL.
03:04:16 <zzo38> Do you know how to make up such pattern matching?
03:04:27 <Bike> ok, but "it allows what the other thing is based on" is kind of... i don't really care, you know what i mean?
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03:06:04 <zzo38> What I can think of is there will be the kind of patterns: A(P) A(* A(P) *) A(P *) ? where A is atom and P is a list of zero or more patterns.
03:06:30 <zzo38> If this is kind of patterns I would need, how would it be doing, so that you can match and replacement?
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03:08:02 <Sgeo> Bike: just trying to ascertain which one it is you know >.>
03:08:19 <Bike> i don't really know either one that well, if that isn't obvious.
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03:17:03 <shachaf> kmc: Do you think persistent data structures are generally not very effective without a GC?
03:21:30 <kmc> I don't have the experience to say, really
03:21:33 <kmc> it seems like they wouldn't be
03:22:57 <shachaf> Hmm, are there obvious ways to make a GC more efficient if you don't care about finding cycles?
03:23:25 <kmc> is only sometimes more efficient
03:23:52 <kmc> i can come up with a few reasons that it would kill performance for a persistent concurrent hash trie or the like
03:23:55 <kmc> but i dunno
03:23:59 <kmc> haven't tried it
03:24:12 <Bike> i don't doubt it. it's just the obvious for cyclefucking gc :p
03:24:21 * kmc made an accidental pun there
03:24:35 <kmc> Bike: you would be interested in cyclefucking wouldn't you
03:24:49 <Bike> he's on a roll today folks
03:24:54 <shachaf> my gc can find cycles but not bicycles
03:24:56 <kmc> LIKE A BICYCLE
03:24:57 <Bike> much like me! hyuk hyuk. my brakes are out, i'm going to die
03:25:09 <zzo38> Do you know anything about pattern matching rose trees in general?
03:25:16 <kmc> zzo38: in SQL?
03:25:52 <Bike> i don't know what a rose tree is, other than that it is probably depicted in the hit japanese cartoon show, Shōjo Kakumei Utena
03:25:55 <shachaf> Maybe zzo38 means Proof General.
03:26:10 <shachaf> i was riding a bicycle without working brakes recently
03:26:17 <Bike> taht's dangerous
03:27:28 <kmc> "Apparently many of you missed it. I took a screenshot of all unauthenticated VNC servers on IPv4. It took 16 minutes. http://results.survey.tx.ai"
03:27:29 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, in SQL, although it could be in C and then export the function to SQL. (It is operating on SQL data structures however.)
03:27:43 <zzo38> (Rose tree is what in Haskell would be (Cofree []), although this program is C)
03:27:54 <Bike> kmc: it's cool how we're all doomed
03:28:29 <shachaf> did you see conal's talk on parallel scans
03:28:33 <Bike> the links are broken :(
03:33:32 <Sgeo> shachaf: you had a halting problem?
03:33:42 <Sgeo> [even my humor is stolen]
03:34:08 <Fiora> it was just taken down?
03:34:27 <Bike> looks up to me
03:34:28 <kmc> i see screenshots on http://results.survey.tx.ai/216.html
03:34:33 <Bike> Oh, no, there it goes.
03:34:59 <kmc> no porn yet
03:35:22 <kmc> http://a0cb98c247b3db5ffaba-2460f3ea0996e8d440cbab5ff57046e7.r23.cf2.rackcdn.com/216.230.224.203_5903.jpg
03:36:15 <kmc> http://a0cb98c247b3db5ffaba-2460f3ea0996e8d440cbab5ff57046e7.r23.cf2.rackcdn.com/216.200.140.167_5900.jpg
03:36:31 <Sgeo> THat icon looks like ActiveTcl... I assume it's actually ActivePerl
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03:51:23 * Sgeo mutters about dead scheme communities
03:54:40 <kmc> (is-not (that-which-can (eternal lie)) dead)
04:07:06 <Sgeo> "One of my favorite things about Chicken Scheme is ir-macro-transformer. I find it to be the most intuitive hygienic macro system yet (using it isn't any more complicated than the traditional unhygienic define-macro)."
04:07:22 <Sgeo> Of course, that simplicity may come at a cost
04:10:17 <Sgeo> implicit renaming
04:10:47 <zzo38> Can Scheme make "law of excluded middle" continuations? You can define that and ordinary continuations in terms of each other (at least in Haskell you can).
04:10:50 <Sgeo> Symbols that are returned are automatically renamed, unless you call inject on them (inject being a function supplied to the transformer along with the form)
04:11:36 <zzo38> lemCC = callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left)); callCC x = lemCC >>= either return x;
04:13:19 <Sgeo> Cont monad continuations are almost delimited continuations. You can build delimited continuations in standard Scheme with call/cc and a bit of mutable state, although it's horrible. Some Schemes and Schemelike systems also provide delimited continuations natively
04:13:49 <Sgeo> That doesn't mean I understand your code, or what a "law of excluded middle" continuation is, just that I'm pretty sure the answer is 'yes'
04:24:45 <shachaf> Sgeo: It means a thing that gives you a continuation when you call it. Then when you call the continuation with a value, it gives you that value.
04:30:45 <Sgeo> I think if I want the name of a bare input symbol to an IR-based macro... I can't get it
04:31:05 <Sgeo> I can compare against known symbols, but I don't think I can just easily convert to a string
04:31:36 <Sgeo> Because all the symbols come in 'renamed'
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04:49:13 <Sgeo> http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=fd5f78e7052159d4df1dfed5cbec51d8e7017598
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05:38:15 <Taneb> I can't get 4oD to work
05:38:22 <Taneb> So I can't watch Agents of SHIELD
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05:56:44 <Sgeo> Hmm... this thing about Chicken just recommended autoconf and automake
05:56:51 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just run far, far away
05:57:10 <Taneb> Will autoconf and automake help me watch Agents of SHIELD
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05:59:44 <Sgeo> It's theoretically possible for at least some hypothetical problems preventing 4oD access
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06:08:33 <mnoqy> what is agents of shield. is it an anime
06:09:05 <Taneb> It's about some agents of shield
06:09:15 <Taneb> It's made by disney
06:10:49 <Bike> why the fuck is everyone talking about anime now
06:13:47 <Taneb> Also I'm on a team for a CTF competition Detica is running today
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06:27:32 <Bike> https://twitter.com/grammarware/status/393871325338411009/photo/1 this is dumb but still great, somehow.
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06:34:26 <Bike> Fiora: This ECDSA paper introduces ten acronyms on the first page.
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07:00:46 <FreeFull> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs/tpk.i
07:02:43 <Bike> HERE I USE A SLICK TRICK
07:03:58 <FreeFull> PLEASE NOTIFY THE AUTHOR IF YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND ALL OF THIS; BUT PLEASE DON'T SEND EMAIL
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08:04:28 <Sgeo> The SRFI process specifies HTML 3.2
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09:55:57 <fizzie> @tell Koen_ You can pass other types without a prototype. You can't pass a char, a short or a float because the default arugment promotions convert those to an int, an int and a double, respectively, in absence of a prototype.
09:56:45 <fizzie> @tell Koen_ If it's any other type, you can receive it as-is in a function without a prototype. (Of course you need to make sure it is exactly the type the function expects, because no implicit conversions are done.)
09:57:17 <fizzie> @tell Koen_ Oh, I didn't notice oerjan's links. Sowwy.
09:57:32 <fizzie> The dangers of incomplete logreading.
10:00:47 <Slereah> So I am thinking of going back on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
10:01:08 <Slereah> I want all (functional) operators to be compatible in a pinch
10:01:29 <Slereah> Mostly by giving them an equivalent lambda version
10:01:58 <Slereah> But if possible I also want to make an equivalence between the numbers and lists
10:02:11 <Slereah> Like 0 being the empty list or NIL, I dunno
10:02:33 <Slereah> But in that case, that equivalent must be the same as the one with the lambda expressions
10:02:53 <Slereah> With 0 = ^x^y.y, and so on
10:03:07 <Slereah> And I'm not sure which construction to pick
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12:15:38 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1p83at/turing_machine_vs_human_mind/
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13:02:41 <oklofok> which irc clients do people usually use with mac
13:03:05 <nortti> I used XChat-aqua and ircII
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14:14:34 <fizzie> oklofok: Ircle was quite popular, if you mean pre-X MacOS.
14:14:56 <fizzie> oklofok: As for current, I've heard of both Limechat and Colloquy.
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14:20:14 <Phantom___Hoover> supposing i have an infinite-dimensional vector space V with basis e_i and some T \in V* such that T(e_i) = 1
14:20:53 <fizzie> Sounds like a setup for a "your mom" joke.
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14:21:46 <Phantom___Hoover> then by linearity T(sum of e_i) = sum of T(e_i), which is an infinite sum of 1s
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14:22:56 <mnoqy> you can't push the T into the infinite sum just with linearity
14:24:00 <mnoqy> i'll check out if the rest of it makes sense
14:26:25 <mnoqy> ahh there's also the matter if the sum of e_i is even an element of V
14:28:37 <mnoqy> just since the vector space &c axioms only require closure &c under finite sums (usually stated in terms of binary sums) and as with lots of things it doesn't generalize very nicely to infinities. i'd have to think a bit more if i wanted to say anything useful
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14:36:22 <mnoqy> example: if you're dealing with, say, functions N->R with the obvious vector space structure, the set {e_i : e(i) = 1; e(j) = 0 for i \neq j} isn't a basis. that's a basis for the subspace of "finitely supported" functions. and the sum of all the basis elements isn't a member of that space. since linear combinations are finite sums of scalar multiples of vectors.
14:37:34 <mnoqy> woops i messed up my explanation structure there oh well
14:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover> would've helped if they'd thought to actually mention infinite-dimensional spaces before springing it on us in an assignment
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14:44:42 <mnoqy> infinite dimensional spaces are like finite dimensional spaces except sometimes you need the axiom of choice to find a basis
14:45:33 <Phantom_Hoover> like if you define linear combinations with a sum over a set of indices you run into exactly this problem
14:52:55 <nooodl> remember how my maths class taught matrices before vectors. or any linear algebra. they're just introduced as magic rectangles of numbers,
14:58:03 <mroman> the only thing I know about matrices is
14:58:10 <mroman> that you always forget how to multiply them
15:02:52 <mnoqy> i didnt understand matrices until i learned that theyre just a way of representing linear transformations in terms of som bases. then i understood them. i also never really ever had to do much in the way of computations on them so
15:03:54 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: sum of e_i is not an element of the vector space
15:04:14 <oklofok> although apparently you were answered already
15:04:24 <mroman> *that's* when you understood them?
15:05:13 <oklofok> but note that there's not even a question of whether "sum of e_i" is an element, it doesn't even mean anything a priori
15:05:45 <mroman> I'm not even sure if all matrices represent linear transformations
15:06:15 <mroman> I though't that's only a sub space
15:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, no, all matrices represent linear transformations
15:07:54 <mroman> which would mean that not all linear transformations are reversible?
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15:11:58 <mroman> since we're already at match
15:12:33 <mroman> Does for any proof that gives an example (or counter-example) as a proof
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15:12:44 <mroman> exist a formal proof that does not rely on an example?
15:14:14 <mroman> I.e. a counter-example shows, that a certain assumption does not hold for all cases
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15:14:19 <mroman> (and therefore disproves it)
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15:14:54 <Phantom__Hoover> that's like the opposite of what people normally try to do
15:15:07 <mroman> but an example does not describe the exact reason why it does not hold.
15:15:41 <mnoqy> the burden of explanation is on whoever's writing the proof
15:16:06 <mroman> it does not hold because a counter-example was found, yes
15:16:54 <mroman> but that doesn't mean that you can describe when exactly the assumption does not hold
15:17:48 <Phantom__Hoover> so you want a way to construct all possible counterexamples
15:18:21 <mroman> or at least an algorithm that can state about any given input if it is a counter example
15:19:03 <mroman> which is roughly the same :)
15:19:33 <Phantom__Hoover> that algorithm consists of "check if the example satisfies whatever predicate you're concerned with"
15:19:48 <mnoqy> but what if that's undecidable??????? what then
15:19:48 <mroman> i.e. show that sin(x) + sin(f(x)) is not peridioc for all f
15:19:59 <mroman> Counter example: sin(x) + sin(sqrt(x))
15:21:07 <mroman> that would at least be an answer to if such an algorithm exists for all proofs :)
15:21:10 <Phantom__Hoover> yes, the algorithm here consists of "determine whether sin(x) + sin(f(x)) is periodic"
15:21:38 <mroman> I can prove that this is wrong by giving a counter example
15:21:55 <mroman> but that does not mean, that I can really prove it for all f
15:22:11 <mroman> all I know is, that it is wrong without knowing WHY it is wrong.
15:22:14 <mnoqy> i don't get what you're getting at
15:22:43 <Phantom__Hoover> it's wrong because there exists f such that sin(x) + sin(f(x)) isn't periodic
15:23:17 <mroman> But I have no way of telling that for any given f
15:23:54 <mroman> because I don't have an algorithm which would solve that problem
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15:24:46 <Phantom__Hoover> whether it's true for arbitrary f is meaningless as far as the truth of the universally qualified statement is concerned; it suffices to know that it is not true for all f
15:25:10 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: That's true.
15:25:56 <Phantom__Hoover> if you're using intuitionistic logic or whatever you actually need to specify an algorithm anyway
15:27:04 <mroman> my opinion is, that a more precise proof would specify the exact properties f must have in order to make the statement wrong
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15:27:40 <mroman> an algorithm that produces counter examples.
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15:30:49 <Phantom___Hoover> basically your notion of a 'precise' proof is extremely limited and doesn't really give much meaningful insight in the relatively few cases where it even exists
15:31:39 <mroman> There's the proof "does it hold for all f"
15:31:51 <mroman> and there's the decision problem "does it hold for this given f"
15:32:06 <mroman> and a counter example doesn't solve the second one
15:32:35 <mnoqy> ok i give up her'es the answer
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15:33:11 <mroman> I just asked a question
15:33:24 <mnoqy> and the answer is "no". does that help
15:33:35 <mroman> Does an algorithm that would solve the second example exist if a counter example exists?
15:34:42 <mroman> mnoqy: Yes. That answers my question :)
15:34:47 <oklofok> "<mroman> I'm not even sure if all matrices represent linear transformations" they are exactly the linear transformations (in the finite-dimensional case, otherwise i don't know what you mean by matrix)
15:35:20 <oklofok> "mroman> which would mean that not all linear transformations are reversible?" the map where everything goes to 0 is trivially linear
15:36:36 <mroman> Projection matrices are linear but not always reversible
15:36:51 <mroman> i.e projection from R^n to R^(n-1)
15:38:35 <mroman> and I don't know anything about infinite-dimensional stuff anyway
15:39:41 <mroman> unless it is about discrete mathematics
15:39:48 <mroman> then I might propose that they don't exist anyway
15:42:54 <oklofok> life sort of sucks if you don't believe in infinite things
15:44:04 <oklofok> all the best math only works if you do
15:47:01 <mroman> I don't know math that well anyway
15:49:10 <mroman> it's still better than physics
15:49:47 <mroman> because that would make sense which english does not
15:50:11 <mroman> physicist was correct.
15:51:11 <mroman> they just don't add up to the real world.
15:51:41 <mnoqy> isn;t modeling the real world kind of what science is about
15:51:53 <mroman> if you're a single mass point
15:52:26 <mroman> or your electrical wires are not too close to each other
15:52:31 <mroman> then you suddenly need new models
15:52:57 <mroman> that's what it's about, yes
15:53:10 <mnoqy> thankfully their models are good enough to get us ipads and flights to the moon
15:53:10 <mroman> I can't understand even simple models
15:53:23 <mroman> force there means force there
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15:53:38 <oklofok> "force there means force there"
15:53:49 <mroman> if theres force a, then there exists its counter-force -a
15:54:18 <mroman> every force has an equal opposite force?
15:54:35 <oklofok> oh. are you mad at the world for having this law or the physicists for noticing it?
15:54:57 <mroman> it don't make sense to me
15:55:13 <oklofok> oh right this was about making sense
15:55:27 <mroman> e.g. why those forces don't cancel each other out
15:55:34 <oklofok> they apply to different things
15:55:44 <mroman> because they're not acting on the same things
15:55:53 <oklofok> the law is that when a force a is applied to some object, then some other object necessarily gets force -a
15:56:00 <mroman> if you apply force to something else
15:56:07 <mroman> then that must have an opposite force too
15:56:34 <mroman> e.g. if gas exhaust pushes your spaceship away
15:57:00 <oklofok> then your spaceship also pushes the gas exhaust away
15:57:15 <mroman> and that gas must go somewhere
15:57:15 <oklofok> isn't that natural and obvious
15:57:19 <mroman> and push something else away
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15:57:48 <oklofok> if gas particles are moving in some direction, there's no "force" involved
15:57:53 <mroman> at least if you were still in the atmosphere
15:57:57 <mroman> then you'd push away air
15:58:01 <oklofok> (except gravity between them)
15:58:12 <mroman> and if you push away air, that air pushes away something else
15:58:17 <mroman> and everytime you push something away
15:58:24 <mroman> something pushes in the opposite direction
15:58:30 <mroman> or something like that
15:58:50 <mroman> if everything pushes everything
16:00:01 <oklofok> but everything doesn't push everything at once
16:00:04 <mroman> I can apply those models
16:00:16 <mroman> because if a Physicist tells me to use them
16:00:22 <mroman> I assume he knows what he's doing
16:00:31 <oklofok> particles move about, and every now and then they get close enough that they bounce off of each other
16:00:40 <mroman> I just have no idea why the model is
16:01:08 <mroman> e.g. why does the third law exist
16:02:05 <mroman> and that's just the simple stuff
16:02:14 <mroman> it gets even weirder for electrical stuff
16:02:58 <mroman> which is mostly due to it being taught wrong
16:03:11 <mroman> like: "uhm.. it's like water flowing in pipes"
16:03:45 <oklofok> are you 5 or why do you find this stuff weird
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16:04:27 <oklofok> or do you not have a corporeal body
16:06:16 <oklofok> we're making some stuff in the oven, and apparently we've been waiting for 30 minutes for nothing because i switched the oven off when i put the stuff in
16:06:28 <oklofok> i remember doing it but i'm not sure why
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16:07:37 <oklofok> mroman: it's like water flowing in pipes only until you get to capasitors and stuff
16:08:04 <oklofok> although i checked that word and the wikipedia page gives a water pipe analog.
16:09:58 <oklofok> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_analogy cool.
16:10:22 <mroman> I just don't understand the physical part of stuff
16:10:42 <mroman> that's just the way it is.
16:11:25 <mroman> If I'm asked to do some fourier shit with wave signals
16:12:02 <mroman> even though I have absolutely no idea what fourier or a wave actually is
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16:13:44 <mroman> it's the same for everything that's closely related to physics.
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16:14:38 <mroman> but I do know how to model physical systems using differential equations with system dynamics tools
16:16:07 <mroman> like simulating behaviours of oscilatting circuits and stuff
16:18:08 <mroman> given the model you use and the integration method you use is precise enough
16:19:28 <mroman> oklofok: I'm studying applied computer science
16:19:36 <mroman> embedded systems in particular
16:20:38 <oklofok> i guess you need to know some wire stuff for that
16:21:17 <mroman> we're getting taught basics of a lot of stuff ;)
16:21:50 <mroman> but really only the ground basics.
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16:22:27 <mroman> I can calculate what *ideal* lense you'd need for your *ideal* eye condition :)
16:22:53 <mroman> and how big you'd have to draw a circle on the moon in order to see it with your naked eye
16:23:07 <mroman> assuming everything is ideal
16:23:27 <mroman> and that's kinda the point
16:23:58 <mroman> there almost certain is light refraction due to the atmosphere
16:24:06 <mroman> probably even depending on the moon position, temperature etc.
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16:28:52 <oklofok> yeah maybe the radius would change by a meter or so
16:29:37 <mroman> and hence I don't understand why light can't move faster than c
16:29:41 <mroman> I don't understand the whole thing
16:30:16 <mroman> I don't even know what light is
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16:30:40 <mroman> except a wave that moves at c
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16:31:02 <mroman> with a certain wave length
16:31:29 <mroman> why do waves with a certain wave length have so different properties than waves with other wavelengths
16:31:38 <mroman> even though they're both electromagnetic waves?
16:33:16 <mroman> We're not using red light to do x-rays
16:33:44 <mroman> atoms/things react different to certain wavelengths
16:34:36 <mroman> You may not count that as a property of the wave
16:34:42 <mroman> rather than a property of a certain material
16:34:47 <oklofok> but it's not that some wavelengths of light pass through things and some don't, it's that as you make the wavelength longer (or shorter?) it goes through stuff more easily
16:35:17 <mroman> I just know that longer waves are better for transmission into space
16:35:34 <mroman> because they penetrate the atmosphere and stuff better
16:36:18 <mroman> but I have no idea how electro-magnetical waves move at all :)
16:37:19 <mroman> probably altering some magnetic field
16:37:34 <mroman> since waves have an amplitude that amplitude must be something
16:38:15 <nortti> anyone interested in a unix v6 shell account?
16:38:51 <mroman> I have to admit that I don't understand electromagnetism really well
16:39:50 <mroman> is the whole universe in a big electromagnetic field?
16:40:17 <mroman> I assume that if there is no such field, than light could not travel at all?
16:40:35 <mroman> like sound needs something to travel
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16:41:23 <mroman> oklofok: but you get my point why I have no idea about physics ;)
16:42:17 <oklofok> i don't think your problem is that you don't get physics, i think you just don't get what getting is
16:42:34 <oklofok> (and also you suck at physics)
16:44:53 <mroman> I'm not studying physics
16:44:59 <mroman> so that's pretty obvious @suck
16:48:32 <mroman> my definition of getting is "Can read and understand scientific papers in a particular field"
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16:49:30 <oklofok> you don't get much then i guess
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18:04:40 <zzo38> Hello, what did you want to day?
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18:46:59 <kmc> oh we don't get to find out why :/
18:48:07 <kmc> grrrrrrr why do I keep misplacing my VMs and chroots
18:48:39 <drlemon> I was gonna say something along the lines of "Where are you guys, LA is ugly today", because it was the past few days, but holy shit, it's beautiful in Los Angeles.
18:48:51 <kmc> also i was wondering how VMX got disabled again but then I remembered I had the motherboard replaced for a repair a few weeks back so it's not even the same machine, woah dude
18:49:02 <kmc> LA can be beautiful
18:49:09 <kmc> where in LA are you?
18:49:54 <Taneb> I think I went to LA once when I was very small
18:49:56 <drlemon> Valley. It's been gray for a bit, though
18:50:43 * kmc lived in Pasadena for four years
18:50:53 <shachaf> that's in california not louisiana
18:51:17 <drlemon> I'm seeing they might be giants tonight! I'm super exited.
18:52:01 <olsner> kmc: hmm, you identify systems by their motherboards?
18:52:18 <olsner> I think it's the same system if the root filesystem or the os installation is the same
18:52:26 <kmc> yeah that's more like what I actually do
18:52:32 <kmc> shachaf: yes
18:52:34 <shachaf> what if it's a read-only filesystem and you clone it to two drives
18:53:02 <olsner> ... you get two of it?
18:53:40 <shachaf> is it the same system or two systems
18:54:05 * kmc makes a note to go all Roko's Basilisk on the next machine image which pisses him off
18:54:14 <Taneb> shachaf, it's seven systems
18:54:19 <Taneb> And three of them are out to get you
18:58:08 <fizzie> Just drank: a Hexhamian Curiosity Cola.
19:07:11 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
19:08:35 <Taneb> Yeah, I used to walk past their office/lab quite often
19:08:44 <Taneb> Few went in, even fewer went out
19:09:06 <Taneb> It used to be really busy, a major employer, but then Mr Fentiman shut the whole thing down.
19:09:10 <Taneb> Cola production stopped.
19:09:25 <Taneb> Then, just as mysteriously as it had stopped, it started again.
19:12:34 <Taneb> Then one day, only a few months ago, there was a competition announced.
19:13:32 <Taneb> 8 lucky children who find a golden ticket in their Fentimans drink, whether it be shandy, cherrytree cola, cool ginger beer, or pink lemonade, would receive a grand tour of this factory of legend...
19:13:47 <Taneb> And also a lifetime supply of carbonated beverages
19:13:56 <Taneb> Naturally the nation was in panic
19:14:02 <Taneb> Three children choked on their tickets
19:15:20 <Taneb> The remaining five went to the factory...
19:15:34 <Taneb> Only four came out again...
19:15:34 <Taneb> And they were changed.
19:15:53 <Taneb> Like, pretty literally changed.
19:15:53 <Taneb> One of them was made of ginger
19:17:07 <Taneb> None have them have said a word about what happened in there
19:17:28 <Taneb> (dear god this got dark fast)
19:17:35 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover help
19:17:52 <Taneb> I think the fifth child was elliott
19:18:41 <Bike> if the dark god iarthal exists why do i feel happy. checkmate theists
19:19:12 <Taneb> Bike, the dark god iarthal got stuck in the Fentimans factory
19:20:02 <zzo38> Perhaps they are different people who they think are other people by mistaken, therefore they never said anything about it because they were never there!
19:20:30 <Taneb> zzo38, an interesting theory
19:20:39 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
19:20:42 <Taneb> But I think it has a few flaws in it
19:20:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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19:23:41 <zzo38> Do you expect it necessary the gods eating anything?
19:28:35 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:29:07 <zzo38> It doesn't necessarily mean anything is necessary in such case, but it also doesn't mean only necessary things are possible.
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19:46:07 <shachaf> kmc: http://tab.snarc.org/posts/haskell/2013-10-25-haskell-crypto-platform.html
19:48:18 <kmc> what's the problem?
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19:59:22 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS1lpKBMkgg
20:25:44 <Bike> http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=2603533
20:26:33 <Bike> http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=2603510 this is some good stuff
20:31:47 <fizzie> "first outframe: (nan,0.000000) (nan,nan) (nan,nan) (nan,nan) (nan,nan) [..] (nan,nan) (nan,nan) (nan,0.000000)"
20:32:44 <Bike> nananananananananananana outframe
20:37:56 <fizzie> I'm going to blame emscripten, since it works just fine when compiled with the (same) clang.
20:38:04 <fizzie> As native code, I mean.
20:38:59 <ais523> different optimization settings?
20:39:36 <fizzie> I don't suppose the "emcc" wrapper does anything special with -Dfoo=bar's (like drops them off)?
20:41:06 <ais523> @tell boily it's called Undecimber, and no
20:41:33 <fizzie> It does not seem to be doing that.
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20:57:03 <oerjan> Phantom___Hoover: did you get a satisfactory explanation for your vector space question
20:57:14 <Bike> vector space question?
20:57:31 <oerjan> good, then i don't have to repeat it :P
20:57:56 <Bike> sure if you're a coward
20:58:03 <oerjan> which is where i am reading it in the first place.
20:58:39 <oerjan> Bike: i wasn't going to mention that one.
20:59:11 <oerjan> wait that wasn't a direct Phantom___Hoover quote
20:59:42 <fizzie> Huh, -s USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=0 seems to make it work. (If slowly.)
21:00:51 <fizzie> And -s USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=1 also works. But USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=2 ends up with all those nans.
21:03:21 <ais523> !unicode MAN IN BUSINESS SUIT LEVITATING
21:05:46 <oerjan> `unicode MAN IN BUSINESS SUIT LEVITATING
21:06:18 <ais523> someone should upgrade HackEgo to Unicode 7
21:06:32 <oerjan> what are you saying it exists.
21:07:01 <oerjan> probably the fault of the japanese.
21:07:11 <ais523> oerjan: it was added really recently
21:07:24 <ais523> possibly the most amusing of the new codepoints
21:07:28 <olsner> someone put everything from wingdings in a new unicode block
21:08:19 <kmc> U+1F595 REVERSED HAND WITH MIDDLE FINGER EXTENDED
21:09:34 * oerjan ponders that theoretically it takes only one cell phone manufacturer with a mean streak to create enough new characters to break unicode.
21:09:59 <oerjan> they'd have to work a bit on it, but still.
21:10:59 <oerjan> whether that would break unicode's size limit or their policy of including everything actually used, is a different matter.
21:11:27 <Bike> unicode begins the arduous and controversial 'chat unificcation'
21:13:20 <elliott> oerjan: I think the human effort to draw all the glyphs that are free would be too big
21:14:19 <oerjan> and thus the world is saved by laziness again
21:15:05 <Bike> how many codepoints are free?
21:15:50 <fizzie> Probably something like approximately 14 planes?
21:16:30 <fizzie> Maybe more, everything else than BMP might still be quite sparse.
21:16:39 <fizzie> Less than 17 planes, anyway.
21:17:00 <Bike> each plane is 2^16 codepoints, right?
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21:17:23 <fizzie> They gave away the last one for private use, unless I misremember.
21:17:34 <HackEgo> OnLiNeR13: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
21:19:18 <ais523> oerjan: can you please pick a more sensible welcome message next time :)
21:19:34 <oerjan> ais523: this is one of the _most_ sensible ones.
21:19:43 <kmc> llvm[4]: Compiling LegalizeFloatTypes.cpp for Release+Asserts build
21:19:58 <Bike> i wonder, if you had everyone on earth draw one glyph, what kind of duplications you'd get (if anY!)
21:20:02 <oerjan> i only picked it because i haven't seen it in a while.
21:20:02 <kmc> legalize float types, regulate and tax them for revenue
21:20:15 <olsner> kmc: is that a drug joke?
21:21:01 <oerjan> Bike: an unsurprising number of boobs and penises, i suspect
21:23:17 <oerjan> i suppose that name is too simple.
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21:31:26 <oerjan> <mroman> my opinion is, that a more precise proof would specify the exact properties f must have in order to make the statement wrong <-- problem is, that the description of such f can be a _lot_ messier than finding a single one. possibly even uncomputable.
21:32:52 <oerjan> what you could hope for instead is an intuition why there would be _many_ counterexamples.
21:33:37 <fizzie> Hrm. -0.389 is a curious result for a*a + b*b, where both a and b are real numbers.
21:34:03 <elliott> fizzie: emscripten uses JS floats to represent ints by default I think
21:34:07 <elliott> if that's what you're talking about
21:34:18 <ais523> elliott: how would it end up negative though?
21:34:30 <elliott> because floats are weird? I don't know
21:34:49 <fizzie> The numbers in question were also floats. (Well, doubles.)
21:36:42 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> my opinion is, that a more precise proof would specify the exact properties f must have in order to make the statement wrong <-- problem is, that the description of such f can be a _lot_ messier than finding a single one. possibly even uncomputable.
21:36:57 <oerjan> @tell mroman what you could hope for instead is an intuition why there would be _many_ counterexamples.
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21:40:25 <fizzie> None of the numbers are less than zero as seen from the C code, so I guess I just do something wrong in the interface.
21:40:50 <fizzie> Right, I'm reading the wrong "pointer".
21:41:52 <fizzie> (Fun fact: emscripten pointers are also just js numbers containing indices into its HEAP (or IHEAP/FHEAP for USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=1, or I8HEAP/U8HEAP/etc. for USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=2) array.)
21:46:27 <oerjan> <mroman> I assume that if there is no such field, than light could not travel at all? <-- did he just reinvent the aether.
21:47:16 <Bike> i admit i have no idea how EM works though.
21:48:05 <oerjan> i suspect if you go all the way to the quantum field theory stuff, no one does.
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22:20:47 <JWinslow23> It seems OriginalOldMan has made a Pancake Stack interpreter.
22:21:42 <JWinslow23> What is OriginalOldMan's name on the IRC channel?
22:23:53 <ais523> not everyone is on this IRC channel
22:24:24 <oerjan> i think i've seen him as OriginalOldMan here
22:24:33 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen OriginalOldMan ever
22:25:09 <oerjan> `seen OriginalOldMan ever
22:25:13 <HackEgo> 2013-09-20 22:55:28: <OriginalOldMan> Hehe
22:25:14 <HackEgo> 2013-09-20 22:55:28: <OriginalOldMan> Hehe
22:25:55 <HackEgo> 2013-10-26 22:25:52: <JWinslow23> `seen JWinslow23 ever
22:26:11 <JWinslow23> 2013-10-26 22:25:52: <JWinslow23> `seen JWinslow23 ever
22:26:23 <Bike> i don't know what you were expecting
22:27:15 <oerjan> `run quine Anyone remember this one | rev
22:27:18 <HackEgo> ver | eno siht rebmemer enoynA eniuq nur`
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22:28:03 <Bike> `run quine eight hundred forty three armless and legless corpses floated inconspiculously through | rainwords
22:28:06 -!- nortti has changed nick to hvidiecat.
22:28:07 <HackEgo> `run quine eight hundred forty three armless and legless corpses floated inconspiculously through | rainwords
22:28:26 -!- hvidiecat has changed nick to nortti.
22:28:35 <JWinslow23> `run quine eight hundred forty three armless and legless corpses floated inconspiculously through
22:28:38 <HackEgo> `run quine eight hundred forty three armless and legless corpses floated inconspiculously through
22:30:20 <HackEgo> `quine "LIVE ON REVILED" | rev
22:30:41 <elliott> oerjan: idea: `quine experiments with the program you pipe it to to figure out how to reverse it >:)
22:30:42 <HackEgo> ver | "DELIVER NO EVIL" eniuq nur`
22:31:02 <oerjan> elliott: YOU GO RIGHT AHEAD IMPLEMENTING THAT
22:31:57 <HackEgo> ver | "I SAW ELBA" eniuq nur`
22:32:39 <ais523> elliott: idea: reimplement `run to see if `quine would run, if so, it just repeats the original line
22:32:48 <Bike> that hardly seems as fun.
22:35:43 <JWinslow23> `run quine "A R E W E N O T D R A W N O N W A R D T O N E W E R A" | rev
22:35:46 <HackEgo> ver | "A R E W E N O T D R A W N O N W A R D T O N E W E R A" eniuq nur`
22:35:46 <ais523> how does `quine get at the original command line, anyway? the logs?
22:36:48 <JWinslow23> `run quine "Straw? No, too stupid a fad; I put soot on warts." | rev
22:36:51 <HackEgo> ver | ".straw no toos tup I ;daf a diputs oot ,oN ?wartS" eniuq nur`
22:36:53 <elliott> ais523: you could also just output to stderr
22:37:12 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | sed 's/[^>]*> //' | grep '^`' | tail -1 #Best cheating quine ever?
22:37:12 <Bike> imo mandate that all shell programs are total, then you can compute an inverse
22:37:38 <elliott> Bike: total isn't the word you're looking for there
22:37:54 <elliott> ais523: that would make it more boring though
22:38:03 <elliott> and break if you added 2>&1 anyway
22:38:05 <HackEgo> `quine NO, YOU'RE STUPID!
22:38:05 <HackEgo> `quine NO, YOU'RE STUPID!
22:38:07 <Bike> thinking is overrated.
22:38:12 <ais523> `run sed --in-place -e's/1 #/1 1>&2 #' bin/quine
22:38:14 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 14: unterminated `s' command
22:38:21 <ais523> `run sed --in-place -e's/1 #/1 1>&2 #/' bin/quine
22:38:39 <Bike> hey JWinslow23
22:38:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
22:38:41 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:41 <Bike> don't fucking do that
22:38:41 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:43 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:43 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:43 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:45 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:45 -!- ais523 has kicked JWinslow23 stop spamming.
22:38:45 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:52 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
22:39:03 <elliott> this is the second time he has been kicked for spamming...
22:39:08 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | sed 's/[^>]*> //' | grep '^`' | tail -1 #Best cheating quine ever?
22:39:13 <Bike> i don't get what's hard to understand
22:39:18 <ais523> yeah, I messed up the 1>&2, forgot to escape the &
22:39:22 <ais523> I'll leave it like the original
22:39:31 <ais523> sorry for not doing that faster, the commands take some time to type
22:39:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
22:39:40 <ais523> err, the kicking the spammer that is
22:39:43 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
22:39:55 <ais523> I needed to type the reason too :(
22:39:55 <Bike> can't you people use chanserv
22:39:57 <elliott> I have /msg chanserv op # muscle-memoried because of #haskell
22:40:00 <ais523> whereas you needed to escape the /
22:40:05 <Bike> worst dictators ever imo
22:40:09 <ais523> elliott: oh, I was cheating with /cs
22:40:28 <elliott> I never bothered to set up a /cs alias
22:40:42 <fizzie> Possibly a "/csk" alias to do the whole thing. For advanced cheaters only.
22:40:53 <ais523> elliott: I didn't, either
22:41:01 <ais523> but Konversation sends unknown slash-commands onto the server
22:41:06 <ais523> and Freenode implements a nonstandard CS command
22:41:07 <elliott> fizzie: yeah, I should just make kickban commands auto-op, but I don't want to write the script or install an existing one to do it
22:41:29 <Bike> oh, this server doesn't have /cs kick like esper does
22:41:39 <ais523> I don't want to have to do that much opping that a shortcut is useful
22:41:47 <ais523> also, I'm amused that JWinslow23 didn't rejoin
22:42:00 <Bike> reflecting on his actions no doubt
22:42:00 <ais523> normally people would in that situation
22:43:14 <fizzie> Bike: There's a "chanserv quiet", though.
22:44:01 <oerjan> i have an alias for /^msg chanserv op #esoteric , you might be able to guess what it's called.
22:44:28 <oerjan> to prevent opening a stupid query window
22:44:29 <fizzie> Is it called "/evildictatormode"?
22:44:47 <coppro> oerjan: /hackegoquine?
22:44:58 <fizzie> Then it must be called /opsoteric, whimsically.
22:45:24 <oerjan> you people are just not pun thinking enough.
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22:48:10 <coppro> oerjan: oh, I get it. it's /sigh right
22:48:46 <oerjan> (no it's not /swat either)
22:49:03 <coppro> oerjan: I presume /swat is for swatting
22:49:20 <oerjan> i don't actually have an alias for that.
22:50:39 <olsner> manual swatting? how old school
22:50:53 <oerjan> the swatter needs precision handling, olsner
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23:08:28 <shachaf> kmc: the idea of using skew binary in data structures is p. nifty imo
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23:18:22 <shachaf> it seems like there ought to be a better way of representing skew numbers
23:19:02 <shachaf> e.g. (Bool, [Bit]) (with the Bool representing whether the least-significant 1 is actually a 2)
23:19:08 <shachaf> with some special handling for 0 or something
23:19:20 <shachaf> but that might be a red herring because you can have skew n-ary
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23:50:32 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/bGaH -- wonder if I should report that as an Emscripten issue. (Actually puzzling it out sounds a bit too much like work.)
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23:56:38 <zzo38> Should some computer game include one item is a sign that says "Oak: Now is not the time to use that!" written on it?
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00:18:26 <fizzie> Well, I did dig out that it's an alignment issue, because aligning a (manually positioned) buffer it sticks in memory on an 8-byte boundary fixes the thing. AIUI, they've had quite a lot of those. (But the test fails even when DOUBLE_MODE=1, which should be the default.)
00:20:17 <zzo38> Due to the ordinary angels in a Dungeons&Dragons game are they don't particularly like it much, and isn't very applicable to Gxxyuxihuvxi religion, I make up new ideas about "celestials of Gxxyuxihuvxi" they are different (still Outsider) creatures, which are difference from others including they have no mouth or hand or feet, but does have shiny bright wings similar to insects wings, various eyes, tentacles, and spikes, and two antennas. They have
00:29:37 <oerjan> zzo38: i am reminded of the cherubs in narbonic here: http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=10298
00:30:27 <oerjan> (best view in the second to last strip)
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00:33:39 <oerjan> also the main picture here http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurAngelsAreDifferent
00:35:00 <oerjan> PSA: European Collective Time Travel in 26 Minutes
00:35:21 <zzo38> Why not 25 minutes?
00:35:40 <oerjan> because i didn't notice the time changing just before pressing return.
00:37:13 <zzo38> I am not describing angels.
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00:38:00 <oerjan> well no, but i'm saying your description still is close to some stuff i've seen called angels
00:38:54 <oerjan> the tvtropes page is going on about angels not needing to look human, of course.
00:39:55 <zzo38> Ah. OK, so that is how you meant
00:42:47 <Bike> i want to say i saw cherubs with eyes before narbonic but i don't remember where
00:45:56 <Bike> well, maimonides said that the ability of zygotes to form organs were cherubim, apparently.
00:47:13 <Sgeo> I really should go ahead and write code that works with er/ir macros but not syntax-case, and code that works with syntax-case but not er/ir macros
00:47:21 <Sgeo> I mean, not translatable easily between them
00:47:43 <Sgeo> But for the Chicken Scheme code, I need to get emacs working in order for me to stay sane :/
00:47:49 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes do that if it can show the difference between them, and possibly if they both have use to do otherwise
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00:48:04 <Sgeo> The difference, as I currently understand it:
00:48:09 <Bike> what does that even have to do with the merkabah
00:48:14 <Sgeo> er/ir allows you to only access the 'outermost' context and the macro's own context, and syntax-case lets you access your own context as well as any context of the input form, but you can't say just 'outermost context'
00:48:34 <zzo38> I also include other things: It cannot live in material plane for more than fifty hours at a time, unless there is a special blessing to do so. Two kind of eye beams are heal beam and confuse beam, and one other magical ability is to borrow some skills and intelligence points of someone they have grappled, for exactly 24 hours (after that it is reset).
00:49:34 <zzo38> (In anti-magic such effects are unusable but can continue; illuminated wings remain illuminated too. In anti-magic only physical attacks are usable, and from what I can tell there are only two: spikes and tentacles.)
00:49:43 <Bike> what the hell is a context
00:50:21 <zzo38> O, I forgot one more magic ability which is "aura of righteousness of holiness" is a continuous ability.
00:50:41 <Sgeo> Speaking about lexical contexts
00:50:54 <Sgeo> Although in the case of er/ir macros, they don't physically exist, I think
00:50:57 <Sgeo> Just conceptually
00:53:00 <Sgeo> Bike: ir macros are beautiful, you should learn them
00:53:23 <Sgeo> Although I think they're limited in some ways, but still trying to wrap my mind around how
00:53:28 <oerjan> PSA: European Collective Time Travel in 8 Minutes
00:53:31 <shachaf> Bike: have you learned lenses yet
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00:53:44 <oerjan> i seem to be having an off-by-one error.
00:54:32 <Sgeo> http://wiki.call-cc.org/explicit-renaming-macros
00:54:46 <Sgeo> I love ir macros, they're so easy
00:55:01 <shachaf> Sgeo........................
00:55:34 <Sgeo> shachaf.....................
00:55:46 <shachaf> oerjan: imo who cares about european time anyway
00:55:47 <oerjan> the meme is not dead that can eternal lie
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01:00:09 <oerjan> hello past non-europeans!
01:00:10 <fizzie> fungot: Did you feel some sort of a glitch there?
01:00:11 <fungot> fizzie: 96. 154 minutes past bedtime. bye-bye. if you
01:00:23 <fizzie> I think the time warp may have confused fungot.
01:00:23 <fungot> fizzie: that's about what i thought, but it did break when i used it to show the answer is " no" without any bad connotations but if you have a distaste for writing gross boilerplate code in c
01:00:37 <oerjan> fizzie: you mean more than usual?
01:01:33 <zzo38> My opinion is that daylight saving time is a bad idea!
01:01:54 <oerjan> at least it is a popular opinion.
01:02:15 <oerjan> oh dear we have been scattered all over the time stream
01:02:40 <shachaf> oerjan: having fun on your time-traveling peninsula?
01:02:42 <Phantom__Hoover> at some point there was an attempt to put the uk permanently in summer time, and move actual summer time an hour further forward
01:02:51 <zzo38> In here where I am, daylight saving time is not changed back yet.
01:03:01 <Phantom__Hoover> as is usual this was actually an insidious plot by the english to repress the scots, and was defeated accordingly
01:03:17 <fizzie> "dot: graph is too large for cairo-renderer bitmaps. Scaling by 0.027679 to fit" uh
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01:03:48 <fizzie> Also the end result was a 32767x15 file.
01:03:52 <zzo38> Since nobody will be here in Monday to watch Murdoch on TV, it means, that the VCR is set to record it and won't get mixed up due to daylight saving time, so it will work correctly. (However, even if it is changing, it might still work because this VCR has a setting for daylight saving time in it.)
01:03:57 <Bike> i've seen dot graphs that crash my entire computer.
01:04:18 <fizzie> Yes, but this was supposed to be like the simplest thing ever.
01:04:46 <oerjan> the simplest thing ever: less common than you'd think!
01:05:12 <zzo38> I think they should fix it so that the clock is 12 PM when it is mean noon.
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01:06:12 <shachaf> zzo38: I think 12AM should mean noon and 0AM should mean midnight
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01:14:26 <olsner> kills thousands of people every spring
01:14:33 <oerjan> zzo38 doesn't believe in useable transport time tables.
01:23:20 <ais523> also, the electronic timetables in a train station I went to were showing that the trains which were scheduled at 13:40ish were late and expected to arrive at 02:08ish
01:23:55 <Bike> oerjan: such considerations matter not before "fixing" things to be "more correct"!
01:24:01 <ais523> not sure if it was a DST-related mistake, if one was 24 hours and the other was 12 hours, or if the machine incorrectly thought they were actually over 12 hours late
01:24:28 * oerjan recalls he did once miss his train because of forgetting dst had started that day.
01:25:15 <ais523> I tend only to use trains that come frequently enough that I can just pick the next train after I arrive, whenever that is
01:26:02 <oerjan> this was long distance, so only three times a day.
01:26:22 <shachaf> there's a channel for that
01:26:25 <oerjan> well i guess that's not really about distance.
01:26:37 <oerjan> shachaf: is there a pun here.
01:28:01 <oerjan> or as erdős would say, died
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01:29:42 <fizzie> oerjan: Didn't he retire himself already?
01:31:34 <oerjan> fizzie: i think you are reversing the lingo.
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03:00:41 <Bike> kmc: https://twitter.com/BiciChic/status/393831136029200384/photo/1 "Just so we're clear, this is why lots of people cycle in the Netherlands. Not because it's flat."
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03:35:58 <shachaf> oerjan: Wikipedia has articles for "posetal category" and "thin category" which seem to be about the same thing.
03:36:26 <shachaf> imo someone should mark them as duplicates or something. is there a way of doing that.......
03:42:37 <mnoqy> there's a thing for marking that one should be merged into the other at least
03:44:38 <shachaf> one of them is more general because it's not restricted to small categories
03:45:10 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you know about heyting algebras and things
03:46:16 <mnoqy> shachaf: never heard of it but it looks alright
03:46:41 <shachaf> well it's just like a cartesian closed lattice
03:47:08 <shachaf> so of course it's "alright"
03:47:48 <shachaf> (imo people should say "all right" instead of "alright" it would be an improvement in the world but a very small one)
03:48:17 <mnoqy> what if they said aight instead. what then.
03:49:15 <shachaf> look no need to get extreme mnoqy there's a limit to everything
03:49:26 <shachaf> well in a complete heytina algebra there is
03:52:37 <shachaf> hm so if you have arbitrary joins and finite meets in a lattice and meets distribute over joins then you can define implication(exponentials) with a -> b = join {c : c meet a <= b}
03:54:16 <shachaf> does something like that make sense in other categories
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04:23:39 <zzo38> Hello! Why do you like to change the topic with the perfume?
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04:25:55 <zzo38> I have some electronic device labeled "GTCO Corporation DIGI-PAD (R)". Do you know what this is?
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04:32:45 <Bike> http://joshreads.com/images/13/10/i131025heathcliff.jpg related
04:49:10 <Sgeo> What's bad funny?
04:55:49 <zzo38> Do you know of any program that converts between UTF, VLQ, and raw formats?
04:58:58 <zzo38> (If you convert UTF-8 to UTF-8, you get rid of overlong encodings but will retain surrogates. If you convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 and then UTF-16 to UTF-8, you will convert CESU-8 to proper UTF-8. If you convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 and then treat the result as raw 16-bit data and convert that to UTF-8, then you will get CESU-8.)
05:12:29 <pikhq> zzo38: Note that UTF-8 to UTF-16 to UTF-8 only does that *if* you don't validate the UTF-8 parsing.
05:12:57 <pikhq> UTF-16 surrogates are not valid Unicode, so UTF-8 with surrogates is a parse error.
05:13:25 <pikhq> (though this assumes the UTF-8 parser checks. If not, then that is what happens, yes)
05:13:50 <zzo38> pikhq: I am not intending to validate that it is valid Unicode or that it isn't overlong; that would be a separate option. (If it doesn't have to valid Unicode, then UTF-8 can encode up to 36-bit numbers.)
05:14:27 <pikhq> Ah, so more discussing the UTF-8 integer encoding scheme.
05:14:37 <pikhq> Which really needs a better name. :P
05:15:33 <zzo38> If it checks for valid Unicode, then treating UTF-16 as raw 16-bit data and converting to UTF-8 would equally fail.
05:17:54 <zzo38> And some UTF-8 files do contain UTF-16 surrogates; such thing isn't proper Unicode but some programs might not care (VGMCK (a program I wrote) only reads UTF-8 in order to convert to UTF-16, and doesn't treat surrogates as anything special, so it will read them just fine and not be a parse error).
05:18:31 <zzo38> A program which instead decodes UTF-8 to look them up in a font might not work if it contains surrogates, though.
05:20:46 <zzo38> Do other programs allow you to enter trailing spaces that aren't stripped if you use overlong encodings?
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05:26:05 <zzo38> I would expect any that decode UTF-8 in the same way to do so, but do any other programs do that?
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08:07:13 <Taneb> Oh god I think the clocks went back last night but I'm not sure if my computer changed automatically or not so I have no idea what time it is
08:07:31 <Taneb> Okay, my computer changed automatically
08:07:43 <zzo38> There are network time servers too if required
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08:51:20 <zzo38> Are there tsume shogi for Nintendo DS?
08:54:50 <kmc> Taneb: presumably you knew the current time to be within a particular set of measure zero so that's as good as actually knowing what time it is right
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09:00:27 <Taneb> kmc, nah, I googled it
09:00:30 <zzo38> I have played a few different tsume shogi for GameBoy, from I'MAX, Imagineer, and Athena. The one from Athena is best, I think.
09:03:05 <kmc> we in the states are still in summertime
09:03:11 <kmc> for one more week
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09:51:30 <zzo38> In the place I live in Canada, it is also the daylight saving time one more week. I think because they just copied the same rule.
09:51:48 <zzo38> Maybe it is in order to do business more easily.
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10:03:16 <fizzie> "Uncaught TypeError: Object #<CanvasRenderingContext2D> has no method 'toBlob'" -- so lame.
10:03:39 <fizzie> Oh, it's on the canvas, not the context.
10:05:23 <fizzie> "Uncaught TypeError: Object #<HTMLCanvasElement> has no method 'toBlob'" well that's not any better.
10:06:08 <fizzie> "Experimental draft" "Implementation status: [empty space]" I guess that's a bit too new.
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10:24:11 <FireFly> I think one of Firefox and Chromium supports that at least
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12:59:45 <Slereah> What's the good C compiler for windows
12:59:54 <Slereah> I'm gonna try to esolang a bit
13:09:44 <Slereah> Some dude advised Dev C++, is it wise
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13:37:32 <mroman> C on Windows is not wise by definition
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13:46:35 <Koen_> I'm following a haskell "tutorial" that seems aimed at "imperative programmers"
13:47:23 <Koen_> ten chapters and one calculator implemented, still no sign of monads
13:47:40 <Koen_> and it's still not clear how you can manage I/O without side effects
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14:02:57 <FireFly> Have you tried Learn You a Haskell?
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14:09:25 <Phantom__Hoover> Koen_, also note the standard caveats that monads aren't that huge of a deal, that there are plenty of monads that aren't IO and have nothing to do with 'side effects', that IO would be perfectly doable without monads
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14:25:21 <Koen_> FireFly: well I almost won that book in a quizz at a scala symposium three days ago, but the girl I was with insisted we played for free, so we didn't get the book :(
14:26:08 <FireFly> Well there's a free online version too :p
14:26:10 <Koen_> Phantom__Hoover: I'm just trying to grasp the whole "we're purely functional but side-effects are not a problem" thingy
14:26:17 * FireFly should get the printed version though
14:34:14 <Koen_> this tutorial is also kinda weird because it keeps insisting on the "differences" between object-oriented, imperative, and functional, whereas I always think in terms of similarities (patterns), not differences
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14:41:34 <Koen_> also I hate that haskell uses indentation as part of the semantics
14:45:00 <FireFly> I think it doesn't, but rather have it be sugar for { ... ; ... ; ... }
14:45:09 <FireFly> But I may be wrong; I'm not really a Haskeller
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14:52:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: The how-to guide to changing the topic with environmentally friendly hypoallergenic lenses | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
15:01:28 <oerjan> <Koen_> also I hate that haskell uses indentation as part of the semantics <-- that's syntax not semantics.
15:02:09 <oerjan> also you can go sit there together with zzo38 and refuse to use it :P
15:05:07 <Koen_> refuse to use haskell? or indentation?
15:18:07 <Phantom__Hoover> Koen_, as for the side effects thing, aiui the way it works is that the IO monad represents ad-hoc imperative programs which handle all the stateful stuff
15:19:25 <Koen_> well as far as I understand "it's okay to have side-effects in the main function, but the other functions are pure"
15:19:59 <Koen_> so i'm guessing the IO monad is just a convenient way to pass the information to main
15:22:09 <Phantom__Hoover> i.e. it's (a representation of) an imperative program which at some point will produce a value of type (), and possibly do other things besides
15:26:07 <oerjan> Koen_: as FireFly mentioned, all indentation sensitivity in haskell is sugar for explicit { ; } blocks.
15:26:16 <Phantom__Hoover> similarly getChar :: IO Char produces a value of type Char, and in the process consumes a character from stdin
15:28:13 <Koen_> oerjan: yes, but I'm not sure how I could choose not to use it
15:28:48 <oerjan> Koen_: well you could use { ; } instead when writing programs. of course it won't help with reading other people's programs.
15:29:02 <Koen_> Phantom__Hoover: well we did use getChar but I really couldn't see how that was any different from getchar in any other language
15:29:38 <Koen_> oerjan: so for instance I could write "let { x = 4; y = 5 } in x + y"?
15:30:48 <Phantom__Hoover> Koen_, because in other languages the type of getchar is just char, and it's treated as a function with no arguments
15:30:52 <Koen_> but does that mean if I write "do" and then a newline and then "{", the newline will be syntactic sugar for an outter block?
15:31:34 <oerjan> Koen_: no. the { being the first token after the do is precisely what turns off the usual indentation sensitivity.
15:31:35 <Slereah> I think I'll have to drop the Unlambda ` for limp.
15:31:44 <Slereah> It works best for mono-letter functions
15:31:57 <Phantom__Hoover> getChar is neither a function nor a character, it's a representation of an imperative program
15:32:12 <Koen_> I don't know what that means
15:33:37 <Phantom__Hoover> well imagine it as an actual program in some imperative language
15:33:51 <oerjan> Koen_: in haskell, getChar has an IO type, which tells that it can do side effects. things that are not marked with such a type cannot call things that are.
15:34:24 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: SOOOOOO SOOOOOORRRYYY
15:34:26 <Koen_> that's kinda disappointing but at least I understand
15:34:43 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: it seemed to help?
15:35:11 <Phantom__Hoover> no, because he now has the standard misconception that IO is a language-level hack that marks some functions as 'contaminated' with 'statefulness'
15:35:54 <Koen_> kinda like in C some functions on strings give the "constant" type to their argument
15:36:22 <Phantom__Hoover> it isn't; IO is in principle an ordinary algebraic data type, albeit one which is hidden for implementation reasons
15:37:18 <oerjan> Koen_: Phantom__Hoover does have a point that IO values are _not_ functions, they are used differently.
15:37:20 <Koen_> then I guess I'll understand once I've read more about monads; and in the mean time I'll use oerjan's explanation
15:38:25 <Phantom__Hoover> monads are just a structure over a type (which can be something as everyday as lists, or Maybe if you've encountered that) and a couple of functions operating on those structures in certain ways
15:38:55 <oerjan> i am not convinced Phantom__Hoover's way of explaining this is actually better.
15:39:30 <Phantom__Hoover> i thought haskellwiki had a good explanation of IO but all it has is the State RealWorld malarkey
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15:40:32 <Koen_> I was told Maybe is just option
15:41:54 <oerjan> Koen_: one important point to be aware of is that evaluating an IO action is not the same as running it, and only the latter performs any actual IO.
15:43:07 <Koen_> but getChar cannot be evaluated without being run, right?
15:43:40 <oerjan> it _can_, although because of haskell's default laziness it is unlikely to happen by accident.
15:43:53 <oerjan> > getChar `seq` "hello"
15:44:03 <Phantom__Hoover> it's just that there's not an awful lot you can do with an IO value except run it
15:44:16 <oerjan> that technically evaluated getChar, although in a useless way.
15:45:54 <oerjan> perhaps more accurately is to say that there is no way to _use_ an IO value without running it.
15:46:21 <Phantom__Hoover> you could also, in theory, have a function of type IO () -> Int that evaluated something stupid about the IO action itself
15:47:12 <oerjan> i don't think haskell has any non-IO means of analyzing IO actions.
15:47:40 <oerjan> and i don't recall much of IO means either, although who knows what exists out there.
15:48:29 <Phantom__Hoover> yeah, it doesn't actually have any such function because, as i said, it's stupid
15:48:37 <oerjan> that Storable / StablePointer stuff from the ffi could probably do something.
15:49:03 <Phantom__Hoover> but, in theory, you could have such a function, and it would be as pure as any other
15:49:33 <oerjan> right if IO was implemented as an ADT as you suggested.
15:52:43 <fizzie> "sig: -nan inf inf inf -inf -inf -inf inf -inf inf -inf inf -inf inf inf inf"
15:55:59 * FireFly wonders if that output is from Lua
15:56:33 <FireFly> I guess 'nan' and 'inf' (with that case) is more common than where I've seen it used, then
16:01:24 <oerjan> > (replicate 16 (0/0),"BATMAN!")
16:01:26 <lambdabot> ([NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN],"BATMAN!")
16:02:42 <fizzie> >>> [float('inf'), -float('inf'), float('inf')-float('inf')]
16:04:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0 -> b0]'
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16:07:20 <Slereah> Does the lazy vs eager evaluation have a parallel with queue vs stack?
16:07:45 <Slereah> Like you can implement it via piling or queueing instructions
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16:16:30 <oerjan> i think queuing instructions doesn't correspond to any of those evaluation strategies.
16:18:34 <Koen_> stacks are cool for scopes
16:18:56 <Koen_> queues are not cool, but more likely to give you turing-completeness :)
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16:22:06 <Slereah> Well I don't really worry about turing completeness
16:22:15 <Slereah> I'm trying to mash together 5 Turing complete languages
16:23:03 <nys> you know what would be good
16:23:04 <Slereah> Same old thang : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
16:23:20 <nys> combining 5 turing complete languages in such a way that it's no longer turing complete
16:23:38 <Slereah> nys : That would be quite a fuck up
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16:24:15 <nys> i mean it would be a challenge in and of itself
16:24:42 <nys> fake-completeness paradigm
16:25:06 <Slereah> I mean, you could take those 5 languages, and restrict the language to just one of those for a particular program
16:25:26 <Slereah> For that to work, you'd have to add restrictions on those languages as well
16:25:33 <nys> well it depends on how they're combined
16:26:03 <nys> what combining means
16:26:25 <Slereah> But I can't think off the cuff on how that would work
16:28:21 <Koen_> what if a program in your language consists in a pipeline of five programs, each in one of the five turing-complete languages
16:28:47 <Koen_> but the pipeline is such that it is no longer possible to do anything you want
16:28:58 <Koen_> because, err, maybe encoding of input and output is fucked up
16:29:25 <nys> i like the idea of it looking like it should work but not actually working
16:29:54 <Slereah> I wonder if you could try mixing it up
16:30:06 <Slereah> Take recursive functions and Lisp
16:30:35 <Slereah> Like suddenly cons car cdr are applied (in some way) to numbers, and succ to lists
16:30:58 <Slereah> In such a way that it makes sense, but isn't TC anymore
16:31:12 <Slereah> Like Succ(list) = (list,Nil) and such
16:31:23 <Koen_> 'succ' feels like cons except you forgot to tell it what element to add to the list
16:33:03 <Koen_> well I'm off to watch Gravity maybe it'll give me ideas :)
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16:38:36 <fizzie> Plugged an old Wacom tablet in the same hub where a memory card reader was: http://sprunge.us/HWNi
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17:03:47 <Slereah> Dang coding is hard to get back to
17:03:53 <Slereah> Didn't code in C in 4 years
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18:49:15 <doesthiswork> Douglas Hofstadter is so very infuriating when I try and get something solid out of reading his books.
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18:50:40 <elliott> that's because there is very little solid in them
18:51:24 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris%20Pressey#Esoteric_Reading_List.21
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18:53:17 <Koen_> for the record Gravity has the Koen seal of approval
18:53:53 <mnoqy> where would we be without gravity, after all
18:54:47 <Koen_> well Sandra Bullock could answer that
18:56:17 <doesthiswork> I saw the title "fluid concepts and creative analogies" and thought that there would be some useful techniques I could use for when I wanted to figure out if two things were similar. But the programs in the book are not good at what they do, or illuminating in how they do it.
19:00:12 <doesthiswork> it was useful in that he blasted some competitors and so I was able to find the competitor's useful work
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19:07:35 <kmc> doesthiswork: haha
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19:08:17 <kmc> elliott: I mostly agree, although I still think the beginning of GEB is a solid introduction to metamathematics
19:08:57 <doesthiswork> His book about translating a french poem is also enjoyable because there are no computers involved
19:09:30 <kmc> things that don't involve computers are often enjoyable
19:10:32 <elliott> kmc: GEB was like 10% expanding the way I think, 40% enjoying the dialogues, 50% being bored of the hundred-page step-by-step formal logic derivations and sceptical of the "brain = Godel!!!!1111" crap
19:11:05 <kmc> a hot mess
19:11:44 <elliott> I think it's worth reading iff you have a lot of free time and aren't going to buy into his theory of consciousness
19:13:04 <doesthiswork> although I had a tendency to only read the dialogues.
19:13:23 <mnoqy> being 12 also helps
19:13:39 <elliott> I was 11 or something I think
19:13:53 <mnoqy> i think i was 12 when i read it
19:14:01 <kmc> 21:03 < kmc> achilles and the tortoise rob a liquor store
19:17:55 <nooodl> i still need to read it
19:21:20 <olsner> fair enough if you want to, but I doubt that you need to
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20:17:39 <shachaf> kmc: http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2013/10/whats-new-in-unicode-70.html
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21:06:28 <olsner> would making a cobrainfuck derivative unbrick your brain?
21:06:29 <doesthiswork> I don't know, elliot's the one with the esoteric math knowledge
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21:26:38 <HackEgo> Diren: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:02:40 <Taneb> Tomorrow is probably my favourite Eurovision day
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22:05:26 <Taneb> I wonder if the UK will ever have a decent entry ever again
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22:11:10 <FireFly> You have your Eurovision participant thingy during the autumn?
22:12:56 <Taneb> FireFly, I don't think we do, I'm just thinking about EuroVision
22:13:56 <Taneb> And it's normally just decided by the BBC
22:14:06 <Taneb> I think a couple of years ago they had a talent contest?
22:14:45 <FireFly> We usually have one each year to decide who is to represent Sweden
22:14:59 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodifestivalen
22:15:01 <Taneb> I guess it works for you
22:15:52 <fizzie> Though I'm not sure it has any sort of proper name.
22:15:56 <olsner> Taneb: o.O you don't get to vote!?
22:16:10 <Taneb> olsner, that is decided by the BBC
22:16:22 <Taneb> Well, we get to vote in the Eurovision final itself
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23:12:47 <oerjan> <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris%20Pressey#Esoteric_Reading_List.21 <-- does his inclusion of ANKOS at the end mean the two previous are meant ironically as well?
23:13:55 <Taneb> GEB is worth a read
23:14:04 <oerjan> i think i started on it once.
23:14:28 <oerjan> but hey, i can already quine backwards and forwards, so what can it teach me.
23:17:00 <Phantom_Hoover> as i recall he summed it up to me as 750 pages of recursion as a religious experience
23:17:07 <elliott> he didn't unambiguously hate Laws of Form, though. there are degrees of irony!
23:18:21 <oerjan> ankos has nice pictures, you cannot deny that.
23:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:20:37 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:20:42 <HackEgo> 1123) <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:21:21 <oerjan> i cannot add a non-literal quote, you know.
23:21:32 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: quick, say the whole thing
23:22:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's ok i've been bitten by it myself.
23:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction in the fact that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:22:41 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction in the fact that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:22:45 <HackEgo> 1124) <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction in the fact that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:23:19 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
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23:36:12 <oerjan> `run echo 'Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! Http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page: Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde # ezoterik deneyin.)' >wisdom/selamlar
23:37:41 <oerjan> _maybe_ it shouldn't translate the dal.net irc channel name.
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23:40:51 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ezoterik/esoteric/' wisdom/selamlar
23:41:05 <HackEgo> Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! Http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page: Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde # esoteric deneyin.)
23:41:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ esoteric/esoteric/' wisdom/selamlar
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00:18:17 <pikhq> 3ds.pokemon-gl.com appears to have been written by a moron.
00:18:33 <pikhq> <script type="text/html">
00:18:44 <Bike> what does that even mean.
00:19:05 <pikhq> Apparently it works in Webkit though.
00:19:29 <Bike> what constitutes "working"
00:19:42 <pikhq> "Renders in the browser" in this case.
00:19:47 <Bike> like i don't even know how i'd gauge success
00:19:52 <pikhq> The whole page's contents are in that script block.
00:20:01 <pikhq> So it doesn't render jack in Firefox.
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00:34:52 <JesseH> esoteric awards no more?
00:36:00 <Bike> we only give out complementary perfumes.
00:37:26 <Bike> you may be thinking, «doesn't it mean «complimentary»?» to which i'd say, it's pretty rude to think of me as "it". bikes can have genders too in this human-dominated society.
00:44:03 <JesseH> Thinking about programming language creation has become a nice passtime
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00:57:15 <Koen_> when I think about programming language creation I get frustrated because I cannot think of anything *new*
00:57:40 <JesseH> Once you get the hang of it :P
00:57:46 <Bike> you know what they say: the greeks thought of everything therefore original thought isn't possibe
00:58:52 <Koen_> well it's true the word "algorithm" sounds kinda greek right? so the greeks have to have thought about computer science
00:59:02 <oerjan> i do _not_ think the greeks thought of zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms.
00:59:15 <mnoqy> why wouldn't they have
00:59:40 <oerjan> Koen_: it's actually arabic/persian or thereabouts.
01:00:07 <Koen_> you just explained the joke oerjan
01:00:11 <Koen_> that makes it unfunny
01:00:16 <Bike> i guess oerjan hasn't read the enneades.
01:02:23 <JesseH> Need a language made for making jokes funnier
01:02:54 <Bike> My jokes cannot be improved.
01:05:31 <JesseH> Is there a language like..
01:05:54 <oerjan> incidentally the khwarizmians managed to get genghis khan particularly angry, and thus doomed their empire.
01:06:12 <JesseH> Something, english like.
01:06:27 <mnoqy> english like in terms of syntax or semantics
01:06:27 <Bike> that doesn't mean anything.
01:07:09 <mnoqy> have you looked at "inform"?
01:07:26 <Bike> have you looked at "Syntactic Structures"
01:07:40 <Bike> have you looked at "Strunk & White"
01:07:59 <mnoqy> ok the next question is what do you mean by it having english-like syntax and what do you mean by it having english-like semantics
01:08:24 <Koen_> inform 7 has pretty english-like syntax
01:08:44 <mnoqy> of course, syntax is the least interesting thing
01:09:04 <JesseH> havent payed a text adventure lately
01:09:04 <mnoqy> actually doing nlp might be interesting though because heh heh nlp
01:09:09 <Bike> that's a mean thing to say about chomsky!!
01:10:23 <augur> syntax is the most puzzling part of language that we can properly study
01:10:35 <JesseH> I like MUDs better than regular text adventures.
01:10:39 * augur says, completely unbiased by the fact that he's a syntactician
01:10:56 <Bike> i only play megaman x fangames
01:11:30 <oerjan> augur: ok do you get pinged on "syntax", "semantics", or "chomsky"
01:11:47 <augur> oerjan: not telling :D
01:12:11 <augur> but now its all three!
01:12:26 <mnoqy> how did that 'a' move all the way over there
01:12:41 <Koen_> so this proves you cannot observe something without influencing it
01:13:06 <JesseH> you can observe something without influencing it
01:13:28 <Koen_> clearly you're not a quantum physicist!
01:13:36 <JesseH> You might be right about that.
01:13:56 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics) the joke is,none f us know phhysics past the 20s
01:14:02 <JesseH> I'm a scientifical time waster guy
01:14:22 <nys> armchair syntactician
01:14:36 <oerjan> mnoqy: probably because 'in' is written with the right hand.
01:14:49 <mnoqy> that expl;ains things
01:14:54 <oerjan> so my hands had a little race condition.
01:14:57 <JesseH> I write it with two, actrue-ally
01:15:19 <mnoqy> i have these problems aalll the time or at least i used to but probalbly i sdtill have them
01:15:56 <Koen_> I was told those races would disappear with purely functional programming
01:16:26 <oerjan> a very godwinian view of functional programming.
01:18:27 <Koen_> well I was also shown how to emulate concurrent programming using lazy evaluation
01:19:02 <Koen_> wait I was supposed to phrase that as a continuation to your joke
01:19:23 <Koen_> erm time to go to bed
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02:40:33 <kmc> data32 data32 data32 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)
02:40:55 <Bike> that's a lot of data.
02:41:32 <oerjan> can't have enough data.
02:41:51 <kmc> that's a 14 byte NOP
02:42:35 <Bike> is data32 a prefix? i was reading it as an assembler directive >_>
02:42:44 <kmc> yeah it's one of the size overrides
02:43:12 <Fiora> that's a big nop, gosh
02:43:39 <Bike> The Big Nop, now at burger king
02:43:43 <Fiora> I was cleaning out my closet and gosh, it's amazing what I find @_@ I found a C programming book printed in 1995
02:44:50 <kmc> no C99 for u
02:45:30 <Fiora> and my simcity strategy guide
02:45:46 <Fiora> and somehow a copy of "the singularity is near" (aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa where did it come from ;_;)
02:45:58 <Bike> i have one for 3000 laying around. it has a section on making geography to play in from USGS bitmaps.
02:46:27 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/MyosinUnrootedTree.jpg why am i in this field. god help me
02:46:28 <Sgeo> I read The Age of Spiritual Machines when I was a kid
02:47:17 <Bike> the real horror of this image is that it's a jpg rather than an svg.
02:48:07 <Sgeo> Maybe some people have browsers that don't support svg. And we should also be quite concerned for those who don't support CSS.
02:48:38 <Bike> or maybe a biologist knows shit about images.
02:49:01 <Bike> Oh, you can download an "Albus Illustrator" file. What the hell is that.
02:49:59 <Sgeo> I should be sleeping
02:57:15 <Fiora> gosh so many old things. cleaning is scary
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02:59:33 <olsner> kmc: data32 is a bit weird, shouldn't the operand prefix mean data16 in long mode?
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03:03:29 <oerjan> <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/MyosinUnrootedTree.jpg why am i in this field. god help me <-- http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3152#comic
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03:04:43 <Bike> that comic went up two days before we started in on endocrinology
03:04:46 <Bike> terrifying lemme tell ya
03:05:48 <Bike> i mean this is 100-level bullshit but it's still "here's the half-dozen hormones involved in regulating eclosion and all their nonlinear fun"
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03:33:23 <shachaf> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1445
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04:43:55 <Gracenotes> I made a pretty nice Zerg onesie at a baby shower today (there was a make-your-own-onesie craft station)
04:44:31 <Bike> nice pattern, yes.
04:45:00 <Gracenotes> it's for your zerglings to wear in public
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05:30:39 <oklofok> "<JesseH> Once you get the hang of it :P" in my experience, it's not so much that you get the hang of it at some point, it's that eventually you realize nothing you do is new enough.
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05:32:39 <oklofok> augur: what do you think of context-sensitive languages?
05:33:19 <augur> what do you mean what do i think of them?
05:33:49 <oklofok> do you think they are a useful class
05:34:03 <augur> not in the usual presentation no
05:34:07 <augur> but in principle, sure
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05:36:02 <oklofok> because i know this formal grammars dude who abhors it, since it has nothing to do with syntax
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05:36:53 <oklofok> because it doesn't actually give any syntactic structure to the word, it just does an unstructured computation
05:36:53 <augur> natural language syntax?
05:37:07 <augur> oh, well thats true of all rewriting systems
05:37:21 <oklofok> it's not true of context-free
05:37:24 <augur> tho non-CF grammars can give structure, just not the usual sort
05:37:45 <augur> you have to use DAGs not just trees
05:37:47 <oklofok> and it's not true of boolean grammars, which is what he himself does
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05:40:06 <oklofok> and it's not true of tree-adjoining grammars
05:40:17 <augur> its also not true of CSGs
05:40:26 <oklofok> it's totally true of them tho?
05:40:53 <augur> you can assign perfectly good DAG near-trees to them
05:40:58 <augur> infact, its not uncommon to see it
05:41:33 <augur> http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0364021304000631-gr1.gif
05:41:36 <augur> they look like that
05:42:23 <oklofok> i should ask him what he thinks of dag near-trees
05:43:15 <oklofok> he's a pretty opinionated dude, mainly about formal grammars and ethnicity
05:48:48 <oklofok> okay i don't think that's a very useful syntactic structure; i mean you would sort of hope that once you have the fixed-point solution, and thus know the "meaning" of each symbol, you would be able to check that the equations hold and given a string over them you'd know what language it gives. this is true of those that i mentioned, but as for
05:48:53 <Gracenotes> modulo a couple of grammars I believe you need some diagonalization arguments to construct, context-sensitive languages are basically unrestricted
05:48:55 <oklofok> context-sensitive, you just have to do the computatiomn
05:49:14 <oklofok> then again, what do i know
05:49:25 <Gracenotes> (in the same way that modern computers are Turing-complete)
05:49:26 <augur> oklofok: i dunno. havent thought about it might
05:49:41 <augur> ive moved away from grammar formalisms in the last year or so
05:49:55 <mnoqy> in the same way that modern computers are huge finite state machines
05:50:05 <oklofok> i have thought about it because i know this guy
05:50:08 <mnoqy> oh that's what you meant
05:51:15 <oklofok> Gracenotes: do you know the formal sense in which they are unrestricted?
05:51:43 <oklofok> they are the class of languages computable in linear space (so the class is PSPACE-complete with respect to P-reductions)
05:52:25 <augur> oklofok: ive been recently focused on abstract formal properties that classify languages
05:53:04 <oklofok> (PSPACE is certainly beyond what people call tractable, but there is life beyond it...)
05:53:21 <oklofok> (by which i mean there are bigger classes that have an interesting theory)
05:53:32 <oklofok> augur: sounds interesting, i don't get it
05:53:58 <oklofok> you just said you are still a syntactician
05:54:06 <augur> oklofok: well, you can define CFLs = { L | L is generated by some CFG }
05:54:13 <Gracenotes> context-sensitive is strictly smaller than unrestricted, but grammars which are unrestricted but not context-sensitive are somewhat hard to come up with, to my understanding.
05:54:15 <augur> but that depends on the notion of CFGs
05:54:33 <augur> but there are infinitely many equivalent formalisms, why pick one?
05:54:35 <oklofok> oh unrestricted in the sense of the chomskian hierarchy
05:54:48 <augur> how can we characterize the CFLs without reference to the grammars?
05:54:58 <augur> well, the pumping lemma for CFLs is one such way
05:55:12 <augur> thats an example of what ive been trying to think about lately
05:55:51 <augur> Gracenotes: yeah, CSLs can do so so much computationally
05:55:55 <oklofok> Gracenotes: there are many examples. the standard example is either regular expressions with binary exponents, or finding a strategy in unrestricted go, depending on what you're reading.
05:55:59 <augur> almost, if not all computation we care about is CS
05:56:27 <Bike> Binary exponents?
05:56:40 <oklofok> augur: oh okay that stuff; i've thought about the exact same problem
05:57:25 <oklofok> Bike: i mean like (a+bb)^(1101011)
05:57:34 <oklofok> where (1101011) is a binary number
05:57:49 <oklofok> and you need to know whether you get the full language iirc
05:57:49 <augur> what does that mean
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05:58:10 <oklofok> augur: just (a+bb)^n where n is the number encoded by the bits
05:58:23 <augur> oklofok: how is that not just a regular language
05:58:27 <oklofok> if it's unary, then you can run the usual algorithms, but decompressing the binary number takes too much time.
05:58:39 <augur> oh i see, so its specifically the binary representation
05:58:48 <oklofok> augur: it is, but looks very different if you have a specific thing you have to compute about it
05:59:09 <oklofok> because you don't have time to compute its unary equivalent; that takes exptime.........
05:59:26 <augur> thats an interesting think that often comes up -- having meta-numbers is cheap, having internal numbers is not
05:59:58 <augur> a^n as a meta-notation for a n times is regular, a^n as actual code, not so much
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06:02:36 <oklofok> i think the crucial thing is just that it's a compressed regexp; you get the same stuff in the sense of formal languages, but a different one in the sense of complexity theory (or state complexity)
06:03:22 <Gracenotes> so, the converse of this state of affairs is what was mentioned earlier, which is that CSLs lack structure... in the same way general computation does.
06:03:31 <oklofok> (state complexity is where you do an operation on languages, and you look at the size of blow-up in the corresponding machines)
06:03:34 <Gracenotes> I dunno what to think of the structure of language anymore, though...
06:03:38 <augur> indeed, because you're treating the regexp as a program for a machine
06:03:44 <augur> not merely as a specification of a machine
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06:03:59 <augur> Gracenotes: not CSLs, CSGs
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06:05:51 <Gracenotes> ah. yes. the language class has at least somethin to do with it, though.
06:08:58 <oklofok> it's certainly an interesting philosophical question of whether a language has structure
06:09:22 <augur> oklofok: thats sort of why ive shifted away from grammars
06:09:30 <oklofok> but i don't know if there's a mathematical question about it. but it's interesting to see for example completely different cfgs for the same languages.
06:09:38 <augur> because i feel the "structure" we should be characterizing shouldnt be beholden to a particular grammar formalism
06:09:50 <augur> but i dont know of any techniques for this
06:10:47 <oklofok> and about your suggestion of chatting, maybe we can do that some day, but right now i'm sort of trying to get away from the computer, as i have to go drive a car.
06:11:32 <oklofok> "<oklofok> but i don't know if there's a mathematical question about it." well okay, i guess characterizing cfgs is a good mathematical question about it
06:11:48 <oklofok> (well it's not a yes/no question so it's not the best kind of question, but anyway)
06:11:53 <augur> if you can suggest something to read on the subject?
06:14:09 <oklofok> i've learned most of what i know from the guy i mentioned, and his notes are in http://users.utu.fi/aleokh/formal_grammars/, but it's not in a very finished state prolly
06:14:46 <oklofok> and also from going to conferences where state complexity is discussed
06:15:12 <oklofok> (i like to send my cellular automaton articles to all sorts of random conferences.)
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06:20:52 <Taneb> Wow I had another good night's sleep
06:21:01 <Taneb> oerjan help my sleep schedule is back with a vengeance
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10:52:42 <nooodl> @tell Bike turns out there's a second episode of learnfun/playfun antics by tom7, and watching it play zelda is *amazing* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGJHR9Ovszs
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11:31:57 <ion> http://heeris.id.au.nyud.net/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt-a-programmer
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11:41:18 <nooodl> ion: i don't think in UML and flowcharts, am i still a real programmer?!
11:41:57 <ion> nooodl: Sorry, no. Please tell me you at least think in XML.
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12:11:52 <Koen_> sooo Monads are just a nice type class that allows for a lot of syntactic sugar?
12:12:04 <Koen_> especially when used with "do"
12:12:31 <ion> koen: You should write a monad tutorial that explains monads as that.
12:13:18 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
12:13:24 <ais523_> was actually trying to remember the definition last night
12:15:01 <olsner> ion: has no-one done that yet?
12:16:23 <ion> olsner: For all x, the probability of a monad tutorial existing that explains monads as x approaches one as time goes to infinity.
12:17:25 <boily> good monadic morning!
12:18:16 <ion> Monads are a bit like mornings.
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12:30:11 * nooodl is reminded by boily's presence to write that tutorial on applicative functors in terms of québécois profanity
12:32:01 <boily> ah! the “<de>” operator.
12:35:30 <nooodl> yeah. il fait froid «$» crisse «*» câlice «*» tabarnak.
12:36:49 <boily> may I suggest s/froid/frette/ for authenticity? otherwise the sacres are perfectly spelled.
12:37:33 <nooodl> some sources spelled "câlisse" so i had to guess!
12:38:25 <boily> <c> and <ss> are acceptable, even if the latter is more common.
12:39:11 <boily> olsner: damn it's motherfscking fscking freezing cold.
12:39:37 <nooodl> it's kinda untranslatable because you wouldn't make long chains of profanities like that in english!
12:39:57 <nooodl> but yeah it's vaguely "it's cold as fuck", except imagine the "as fuck" takes up over half the original sentence
12:40:12 <olsner> il fait froid = he's doing cold? and then the crisse, calise, tabarnak are additional profanities?
12:40:51 <nooodl> "il" is used as a dummy subject, as in "il pleut", "it's raining" (what's "it"? same thing)
12:40:56 <boily> the «il» in «il fait» is impersonal. this idiom points to a current state of things.
12:41:19 <boily> cf. nooodl's «il pleut». same usage as “it”.
12:41:47 <olsner> I got that, but I was wondering if it was a male gender dummy subject, and whether cold is done rather than been in french
12:42:43 <nooodl> «$» is really «en» and «*» is really «de». i'm actually not sure what it would translate to word-for-word but it's definitely good
12:42:57 <nooodl> "it's cold as christ of chalice(?) of (???)"
12:43:06 <boily> tabernacle, I think?
12:43:31 <nooodl> god it's hard to imagine any of these words being actually offensive
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12:45:28 <nooodl> 'Sometimes older people unable to bring themselves to swear with church words or their derivatives used to make up phrases that sound innocuous like cinq six boîtes de tomates vartes (literally, "five six boxes of green tomatoes", varte being slang for verte, "green"). This phrase when pronounced quickly by a native speaker sounds like saint-siboire de tabarnac ("holy ciborium of the tabernacle").'
12:45:59 <nooodl> tomates vartes sounds like tabarnac??
12:46:56 * boily tries to not strangulate himself with his earphones' cord while he rofles
12:47:51 <olsner> tomatvar tamatvar tabatvar tabarnac?
12:50:01 <boily> /sẽ.si.ˈbwɒːt.də.tɔ.ˈmät.ˈvɒʁt/, /sɛ̃.si.ˈbwɶːʁ.də.tä.bäʁ.näk/
12:50:49 <boily> hmm.... replace ɶ with ɒ.
12:51:49 <HackEgo> Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! Http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page: Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde #esoteric deneyin.)
12:54:20 <boily> olsner: I suspect google translate being involved in that Turkish welcome.
12:54:31 <boily> (meanwhile, ♪ding♪ updated PDF!)
12:55:04 <olsner> boily: I can't tell, but suspicion seems prudent
12:55:55 <nooodl> i'm trying to find a good resource on french accents. they're pretty fascinating
12:56:09 <boily> olsner: oh. not you, but oerjan. I really have trouble distinguishing between you two.
12:56:19 <boily> @tell oerjan did you google the Turk?
12:56:45 <boily> nooodl: if you find any, please do tell. wikipédia's articles on the subject are lacking in quality.
12:56:51 <olsner> boily: one is norwegian, one is swedish, how hard can it be?
12:57:16 <boily> olsner: is that a pick-up line to a wunza plot?
12:58:22 <nooodl> i'm watching youtube videos of people speaking all kinds of accents and they're pretty hard to tell apart
12:58:40 <olsner> the end is a bit too unspectacular for a wunza plot though
12:58:49 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_RxZc7eMeU
12:59:36 <olsner> oh well, I should really get to work now
13:01:55 <boily> nooodl: ah, a pair of montréalais.
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13:29:28 <boily> aaaaurgh. against my will and sanity, I'm being drawn deeper and deeper into the Realm of Enterprise Software.
13:42:48 <Koen_> can someone help me understand monads? namely why does this code work: http://pastebin.com/zLiUg67V
13:43:13 <Koen_> the exercise was to write the monad; the remainder of the code is not from me
13:43:31 <Koen_> I don't understand how "y - 4" can make any sense if y is "Sure 3"
13:44:31 <boily> “y” is not “Sure 3”, but “3”. the “a <- f” decomposes to “f >>= \a -> ...”.
13:45:28 <ais523_> basically, if any line with "y" in even gets to run, then the "y" is bound to "q", where "safeRoot x" returns "sure q"
13:45:36 <ais523_> that's what the second line of the monad instance says
13:46:06 <Koen_> that's this "<-" I didn't really understand
13:47:10 <Koen_> the tutorial explained something about the bind operator being used between the lines; so I was trying to imagine the first line bound to the second line
13:48:04 <ais523_> if the first line returns Nah, then what happens is that the second line desugars to something containing "\y -> safeRoot (y - 4)", but that function is never applied to anything
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14:06:19 <boily> `relcome hangermeet_agent
14:06:22 <HackEgo> hangermeet_agent: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:07:06 <ais523_> oh, so that's what `relcome looks like
14:07:13 <ais523_> (my usual client has color turned off)
14:07:32 <ais523_> although, recoloring in the middle of a link breaks the link highlighter on Freenode webchat
14:07:41 <ais523_> how many welcome variants don't break the link?
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14:10:38 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:10:45 <FireFly> That one doesn't, I suppose
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14:12:59 <ais523_> because it colours per-word?
14:13:13 <ais523_> we should get rid of relcome in favour of tha tone
14:16:08 <ais523_> `run ln -s rwelcome bin/relcome
14:16:17 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:32:43 <boily> meh. `rwelcome isn't random.
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14:34:02 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:34:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
14:34:26 <HackEgo> cat: rainwords: No such file or directory
14:34:31 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
14:34:46 <Jafet> That's an interesting coincidence
14:34:59 <HackEgo> random: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:35:27 <ais523_> still following the same sequence, but it seems to be starting at a random point in it
14:35:34 <ais523_> `relcome 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
14:35:38 <HackEgo> 1: 2: 3: 4: 5: 6: 7: 8: 9: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #es
14:35:52 <nooodl> "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r)))
14:36:07 <nooodl> that assigns a random index in (0, len(r)) to s
14:36:44 <nooodl> and you take r[(i+s)%len(r)] so it's offset by s
14:37:03 <ais523_> actually, given that the color sequence is red, orange, yellow, green, blue, magenta, dark magenta
14:37:20 <ais523_> it looks like it's intended as an approximation of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet
14:37:28 <ais523_> in which case the only mistake is that the two magentas are backwards
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14:37:35 <ais523_> and the randomization behaviour is intentional
14:40:12 <nooodl> `run sed 's/13,6/6,13/' bin/rainwords
14:40:13 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
14:40:30 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:40:53 <ais523_> nooodl: you didn't edit in place
14:41:04 <ais523_> `run sed --in-place 's/14,6/6,13' bin/rainwords
14:41:05 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 11: unterminated `s' command
14:41:10 <ais523_> `run sed --in-place 's/14,6/6,13/' bin/rainwords
14:41:21 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:41:32 <ais523_> `run sed --in-place 's/13,6/6,13/' bin/rainwords
14:41:39 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:47:41 <HackEgo> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS!ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE! (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC!DAL!NET!)!
14:48:15 <ais523_> let's see how many stupid welcome variants I can get rid of before someone reverts
14:48:52 <HackEgo> ` \ ̊ \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ chroot \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ delvs \ e \ echo \ echo \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ erflist \ etymology \ forget \ f
14:50:13 <ais523_> is that a prolonged meow, a singing meow, or a very sarcastic meow?
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14:52:45 <boily> HackEgo... meows???
14:53:01 * boily stays close to his sane and unmeowing bot
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14:56:31 <FireFly> ais523_: `! isn't so much a stupid welcome variant as a more exclamatory `?
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14:56:58 <ais523_> OK so it's a stupid `? variant
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15:00:49 <HackEgo> .egaugnal31 gnimmargorp2 lufroloc9 yllaer8 a7 si4 teiP6
15:01:24 <boily> I feel there's room for improvement, but that'll do for the moment.
15:01:43 * boily has a sudden illuminative moment.
15:01:55 <boily> gnimmargorp. *sigh*
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15:17:46 <lambdabot> boily said 2h 21m 26s ago: did you google the Turk?
15:18:19 <oerjan> boily: yes, it's probably standard google translate quality :)
15:24:42 <boily> I think I'll chapterise the welcomes. they are becoming numerous and linguistical.
15:28:33 <HackEgo> "Gnimmargorp" er algeng stafsetningarvilla af "grimmargorp".
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15:29:25 <boily> oh hm. a forgotten entry.
15:30:13 <oerjan> boily: well i recently added it.
15:32:03 <oerjan> @tell Gracenotes <Gracenotes> so, the converse of this state of affairs is what was mentioned earlier, which is that CSLs lack structure... in the same way general computation does. <-- reminds me of people saying that a main problem with solving P vs. NP is that we don't really understand all the weird kinds of computations that are in P.
15:32:15 <oerjan> i wonder if lambdabot cuts that off.
15:32:21 <boily> oh, would a Finnishophone be kind enough to have the welcome translated?
15:36:37 <boily> ♪déng♪ new chapter, and a fresh gnimmargorp.
15:40:51 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> oerjan help my sleep schedule is back with a vengeance <-- disturbing.
15:43:42 <oerjan> `addquote <ion> olsner: For all x, the probability of a monad tutorial existing that explains monads as x approaches one as time goes to infinity. <boily> good monadic morning! <ion> Monads are a bit like mornings. <myname> what
15:43:46 <HackEgo> 1124) <ion> olsner: For all x, the probability of a monad tutorial existing that explains monads as x approaches one as time goes to infinity. <boily> good monadic morning! <ion> Monads are a bit like mornings. <myname> what
15:44:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
15:45:10 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
15:45:21 <oerjan> they're not all bin/ified
15:46:10 <oerjan> what language would that be.
15:46:13 <nooodl> clearly i have a mission
15:46:50 <boily> myname: lucky you, here comes a new quotacular section for you!
15:47:34 <HackEgo> myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I?
15:47:49 <myname> is there a german version yet?
15:48:21 <HackEgo> bin/welcome \ bin/welcome13
15:48:32 <oerjan> `run ls wisdome/welcome*
15:48:34 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdome/welcome*: No such file or directory
15:48:35 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/welcome*
15:48:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es
15:48:53 <oerjan> the naming scheme is a little hard to predict.
15:49:00 <nooodl> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
15:49:24 <Bike> kmc: watch out, all those #drugz will catch up to you 08:44 < HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
15:49:29 <Bike> kmc: https://twitter.com/flashboy/status/394737605784641536/photo/1
15:49:40 <oerjan> `learn Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en
15:49:41 <oerjan> implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer
15:49:41 <oerjan> informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.
15:49:41 <oerjan> (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
15:49:42 <nooodl> i don't want to embarrass myself fumbling with the HackEgo commands required to get that into `?
15:49:48 <nooodl> `learn Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
15:50:03 <HackEgo> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en
15:50:15 <boily> go go guys! you can do it!
15:50:16 <HackEgo> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
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15:50:38 <oerjan> nooodl: and i was starting to get used to irssi's line joining working properly :(
15:51:09 <nooodl> also this is a translation of the french one so it better be accurate!
15:51:37 <Bike> nooodl: hahaha, were people seriously worrying about skynet
15:51:56 <boily> nooodl: I think many people twiddled and fiddled the French version.
15:52:21 <nooodl> Bike: that's youtube comments for you
15:52:51 <Bike> "the dark side of pausing"
15:52:52 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
15:54:23 <Bike> still no triforce
15:54:41 <oerjan> nooodl: i assume you found starting with the french a more belgian way of doing it?
15:54:43 <myname> if you were a super villian, what would be your master plan?
15:55:11 <nooodl> oerjan: it's going to get even better, just you watch
15:55:17 <boily> myname: make nattō the Universal National Dish.
15:55:50 <oerjan> that does sound super villainous.
15:56:15 <boily> not my problem people don't like it. I do, and it's healthy!
15:56:19 <oerjan> i guess when i take over the world i won't be that evil, just lutefisk.
15:59:28 <nooodl> `learn Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen, besuchen Sie die Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für anderen Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
16:00:16 <myname> i think you would say "das Wiki"
16:00:38 <oerjan> < Bike> kmc: https://twitter.com/flashboy/status/394737605784641536/photo/1 <-- rofl
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16:04:50 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/die Wiki/das Wiki/' wisdom/Willkommen
16:04:52 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/Willkommen: No such file or directory
16:04:58 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/anderen/andere/' wisdom/willkommen
16:05:10 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/die Wiki/das Wiki/' wisdom/willkommen
16:09:50 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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16:15:23 <oerjan> <nooodl> it's kinda untranslatable because you wouldn't make long chains of profanities like that in english! <-- Det va då steike hælvete te satans førbainna uver...
16:15:39 <oerjan> (in northern norwegian, you would hth)
16:15:56 <nooodl> what does that translate to, word by word
16:16:41 <oerjan> that was then fry hell to satan's damned bad_weather
16:16:58 <oerjan> (you _did_ ask for word by word)
16:17:00 <myname> fun fact, hth would translate perfectly fine to hdh in german
16:17:13 <oerjan> myname: norwegian too.
16:19:32 <oerjan> you may notice a slight difference in focus of the profanities from quebecois, btw
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16:30:13 <oerjan> <ais523_> we should get rid of relcome in favour of tha tone <-- ;_;
16:30:30 <oerjan> YOU KILLED RELCOME YOU BASTARDS
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16:41:38 <HackEgo> welcome.bork Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: http://isulungs.oorg/veeki/Meeen_Pege-a. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon irc.del.net.)
16:41:58 <FireFly> I see, there were already a dutch entry.
16:42:10 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
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17:09:47 <boily> back from lunch, and oerjan can hth.
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17:13:08 <Koen_> does hth mean "Happily Testimony that it was Hot" or something?
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17:27:21 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
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17:36:02 <augur> very cute fact: { w | w <- {0,1}*, w has equal numbers of 01 and 10 }
17:36:06 <augur> is a regular language
17:36:21 <augur> in fact, it is the language { 0w0 | w <- {0,1}* }
17:36:56 <boily> what's a «*» doing there?
17:37:22 <myname> i assume it's a kleene star
17:37:42 <myname> but i disagree with both statements
17:38:20 <myname> equal numbers of 01 and 10 would need either counting or an infinite dfa
17:38:31 <myname> both are no reagular languages
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17:40:23 <Bike> well, 00 does have equal numbers of 01 and 10.
17:40:57 <boily> there should be an Infinite Deterministic Finite Automaton.
17:41:14 <Bike> i don't see how to make it asymmetric if there are zeroes on both ends.
17:41:45 <myname> interesting trick, counting chars two times
17:45:03 <augur> boily: yes it would :)
17:45:22 <augur> include 00 and 000 i mean
17:45:32 <augur> infinite 01 and 10 doesnt actually require counting or an infinite dfa
17:45:34 <Bike> isn't it also 1{0,1}*1?
17:45:35 <augur> thats the surprising thing
17:45:38 <augur> it SEEMS like it would
17:46:48 <Bike> 11 has equal numbers of 01 and 10 and isn't it 0{0,1}*0, certainly.
17:49:34 <augur> so maybe its 0w0 and 1w1
17:49:39 <augur> anyway, its a cute fact
17:52:12 <boily> when you polish a diamond, it's acute facet.
17:52:33 <boily> when you shorten a spigot, it's a cut faucet.
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18:16:30 <olsner> "<oerjan> `addquote <ion> olsner: " <-- that quote doesn't really need to include me
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18:37:43 <mroman> if with 0.6 probablity: every x has property p
18:38:05 <mroman> then with 0.6 probably: not exists x has property (not p)?
18:39:19 <mroman> or more formal: forall{0.6} x: hasProperty(x,p) == notexists{0.6} x: hasProperty(x,!p)
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18:40:51 <boily> mroman: “forall{0.6” ← are you implying there can be multiple 0.6es?
18:42:29 <Bike> mroman: probability is irrelevant there. "for all x p(x)" and "for no x ¬p(x)" are the same statement.
18:44:02 <boily> (meanwhile, discovery of the day: youtube videos can go at least up to 1440px wide now.)
18:44:28 <fizzie> I think they do "4k" already.
18:44:54 <fizzie> http://youtube-global.blogspot.fi/2010/07/whats-bigger-than-1080p-4k-video-comes.html
18:45:13 <fizzie> Since 2010, apparently.
18:45:38 <fizzie> But only for the "original" size. Maybe they've added more scaled sizes?
18:45:58 <fizzie> ("1440px wide" doesn't sound terribly impressive, since the 1080p they've done for ages is 1920px wide.)
18:46:58 <boily> hm. seems I can't dimension.
18:48:34 <mroman> exists{0.8} x: hasProperty(x,p) == forall{0.2} x: hasProperty(x,!p)
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18:49:25 <mroman> i.e if to 80% an X exists with P
18:49:25 <Bike> "all x are p" and "no x is p" aren't the only possibilities.
18:49:58 <mroman> then the remaining 20% must mean, that all X must not have property P
18:50:06 <Bike> Maybe one lonely x is ¬p and all the rest are p and shun it.
18:50:10 * elliott thinks you should define what this quant{p} notation means.
18:50:31 <elliott> does (forall{p} x: e) mean that for any given x, there is p probability that e holds of it?
18:50:39 <elliott> or does it mean that there is p probability that for every x e holds?
18:50:44 <Bike> elliott: from context it means the latter.
18:50:54 <mroman> the probability applies to the whole statement
18:50:55 <Bike> it's pretty bad notation though..
18:51:08 <elliott> well, how about not attaching it to the quantifier, if it is unrelated to it?
18:51:31 <mroman> it roughly translates to
18:51:45 <mroman> I'm to 80% certain, that an X exists with property P
18:52:10 <Bike> That's totally different!
18:52:16 <Bike> From either thing elliott said!
18:52:36 <Bike> And from what you said.
18:52:36 <elliott> so (forall{1} n: n = 42) holds over the naturals because I am 100% certain there exists an n with property n = 42...?
18:52:49 <mroman> and therefore, I can say with 20% certainity, that no such X exists
18:53:21 <Bike> Well, yes, if you redo everything like that.
18:53:31 <mroman> which should also mean, that to 20% all X have not property P
18:53:40 <Bike> You're no longer 80% certain that no X exists with ¬p though.
18:54:12 <mroman> Like: I'm 80% certain that all guys are coming to my party
18:54:25 <Bike> that is another different thing!
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18:54:29 <Bike> fucking hell, man.
18:54:50 <Bike> "80% certain that an X exists with property p" would be "I'm 80% certain that at least one of the people coming to my party is a guy"
18:55:02 * elliott decides the answer to your original question is whichever of "yes" or "no" you prefer :P
18:55:05 <mroman> which would be forall{0.8} x: x comes to my party
18:55:26 <mroman> Bike: That's a different statement then
18:55:39 <Bike> yes. that is what i'm saying.
18:55:45 <Bike> you keep changing what everything means.
18:56:46 <mroman> let's go back to the 80% exists, 20% forall
18:56:56 <mroman> If I'm 80% certain that someone comes to my party
18:57:12 <mroman> can I be to 20% certain, that everyone is not coming to my party?
18:58:21 <mroman> That's what my intuition says, at least
18:59:46 <mroman> but I'm not sure if that holds for other stuff
19:00:20 <mroman> i.e I'm 80% certain that in this randomly generated set an element x is zero
19:00:55 <mroman> then to 20% every element in the set is not zero?
19:01:27 <Bike> "this set has at least one zero" and "this set has exactly zero zeroes" are mutually exclusive, so...
19:02:40 <mroman> only one of them can be true
19:03:12 <mroman> "the ball is in the bucket" and "the ball is not in the bucket" are exclusive too
19:03:18 <mroman> but if the ball is in the bucket with 50%
19:03:25 <mroman> then it is also not in the bucket with 50%
19:04:41 <mroman> if it comes to probabilites, i should be able to express everything with notexists
19:05:38 <mroman> exists{0.2} x: x has property p == notexists{0.8} x: x has property p
19:05:52 <nooodl> i think the preferred notation for this is P(...) = 0.8?
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19:06:46 <mroman> but not really practical
19:08:31 <mroman> you can nest them, of course
19:08:44 <mroman> exists{0.2} x: forall{0.3} ...
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19:14:32 <Bike> mroman: the point being that the sum of the probabilities of mutually exlusive events is one, so that solves your "I'm 80% sure" bit.
19:16:42 <Bike> sum of the probabilities of mutually exlusive events that make up the whole probability space.
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19:30:43 <boily> kmc: random question: is your nick related to k-means clustering?
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19:32:37 <Bike> k means clustering of his ancestroy
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19:35:57 <Fiora> Buy Keegan clustering software today! Always remember our motto: Keegan. Means. /Clustering/.
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19:42:40 <boily> beuh. I liked Fiora's version :D
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20:08:27 <Halite> I have the perfect idea for an esoteric schematic - hard to use, erratic syntax, don't know if Turing or not
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20:09:36 <Halite> goes a bit like this: 'GET boolean x, GET boolean y, XOR x y, SEND z
20:10:12 <Slereah> You can't do all logic gates with XOR I think?
20:10:25 <Halite> I don't just allow xor
20:10:39 <Halite> but I think XOR and OR are a set that is turing complete
20:11:10 <Slereah> So OR and XOR probably are too
20:11:22 <Slereah> Probably not too hard to build not from both
20:11:26 <shachaf> Aren't you banned in here?
20:11:42 <Halite> shachaf: I don't remember a ban record.
20:13:16 <Halite> nvm you might've been talking to Slereah
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20:15:56 <boily> elliott: do you remember a ban?
20:16:22 <Halite> I was from #haskell but not sure about here
20:16:55 <Halite> Nobody's took action yet, I'd say we could continue
20:17:00 <elliott> boily: I do not believe so
20:17:02 <nooodl> (a OR b) XOR (a XOR b) == a AND b
20:18:23 <Halite> that's x nor/nand x you're thinking
20:18:24 <nooodl> does a XOR true count?
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20:18:50 <Halite> 0 xor 1 = 1, 1 xor 1 = 0
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20:19:07 <Halite> XOR and OR are a set that are indeed turing complete
20:19:29 <Bike> you mean logically complete.
20:19:40 <Halite> well it's called functionally complete actually
20:19:42 <Slereah> Well if you can do logic gates with it
20:19:50 <Bike> call it that, then.
20:20:16 <Halite> now for type-completeness?
20:20:43 <Halite> e.g. if you can make all types out of a set
20:20:51 <nooodl> isn't "logic gates => TC" kind of a stretch. i mean you need theoretically unbounded storage space and stuff right
20:21:47 <Bike> an unbounded number of gates, if that's what you mean.
20:21:50 <Halite> Turing-completeness can theoretically be checked on turing machines so it's not really a stretch
20:22:10 <Bike> buuuuut logic gates are total.
20:23:19 <Halite> I'm just pondering what operator is abstractly explanatory - as in a TC operator which gives you an abstract sense of the meaning when read
20:23:53 <Halite> e.g. you can't tell what x NAND y NOR z means, so the set {NAND, NOR} isn't 'abstractly explanatory'
20:24:52 <nooodl> what about {NAND} (ps i don't get it either)
20:24:58 <boily> I smell someone trying to out NaniDispense me...
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20:25:16 <Halite> by abstractly explanatory we'll come to examples
20:25:36 <Slereah> All TC things require unboundedness, nooodl
20:25:59 <kmc> in complexity theory one often talks about a family of circuits, one for each input problem size
20:26:10 <Halite> The unofficial operator t(aa, ab, ba, bb, x) is abstractly explanatory where
20:26:26 <kmc> it's required that the whole family can be described by a single log-space turing machine, in order to avoid hiding too much of the work in the family description
20:26:59 <kmc> see for example https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/Complexity_Zoo:N#nc
20:27:18 <Halite> where t(aa, ab, ba, bb, x, y) = true if x=y=0 and aa, if x=y=1 and bb, if x=1 y=0 and ba, or if x=0 y=1 and ab=1.
20:27:33 <Halite> which is a truth table constructor
20:27:49 <Halite> t(0, 1, 1, 0, x, y) = x xor y
20:27:59 <Bike> That's a multiplexor, no?
20:28:03 <Halite> see the abstractness? xor's truthtable is just that 0, 1, 1, 0
20:28:19 <Halite> Bike: hmm yeah you are right I've made such device in logisim before
20:28:34 <Halite> Bike: by that I mean the t function
20:28:34 <Bike> Multiplexers are, wait for it... functionally complete
20:28:47 <Halite> and also abstractly explanatory
20:28:56 <Bike> Yes. We've found it.
20:29:03 <Halite> as it is official and useful
20:29:11 <Halite> we had it all along though...
20:30:03 * boily stares in beatitude, uncomprehension, derstanding and not having a clue about what's going on.
20:30:22 <kmc> expression-oriented languages with BCPL syntax are weeeeird: https://github.com/mozilla/servo/blob/master/src/components/gfx/buffer_map.rs#L98-L110
20:30:33 <oklofok> i think it's abstractly explanatory what's going on
20:30:37 <Bike> "bcpl syntax"? you're such a fuckin hipster man
20:30:38 <oklofok> you guys are just being dense
20:30:54 <boily> I'm not dense. just hungry.
20:30:58 <augur> kmc: whats weird about the linked code?
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20:31:12 <Halite> What functionally complete and abstractly explanatory set of operators would fit well into a schematic? Hmm multiplexor has too many arguments - I want 2
20:31:38 <Bike> lightbulbs are not functionally complete
20:31:40 <kmc> augur: that the condition of the 'if' is a 5-statement brace-delimeted block with side effects
20:31:53 <Halite> {or, not} -- I previously thought it wasn't but I thought about it
20:31:59 <kmc> Bike: you know i am
20:32:03 <augur> kmc: why is that weird
20:32:07 <Halite> nooodl: not abstractly explanatory - what does x NAND y NAND z mean?
20:32:13 <Bike> look you can't just
20:32:18 <Halite> but or , not seem to be...
20:32:22 <Bike> you can't just say "abstractly explanatory" as if any of us have any fucking clue what you mean
20:32:24 <augur> yeah ok thats weird
20:32:29 <Bike> i mean you can but it's pointless
20:32:36 <augur> not entirely weird, but
20:32:41 <augur> i mean, you can do that in lisp, for instance
20:32:48 <augur> two of the statements are lets so thats not too bad
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20:32:59 <Bike> thankfully, wikipedia has a list of functionally complete sets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness#Minimal_functionally_complete_operator_sets
20:33:20 <Halite> they sound abstractly explanatory
20:33:33 <Bike> stop using that term god
20:33:38 <kmc> the equivalent in GCC C would be if ( ({ int x = 4; y -= 2; ... }) ) { ... } else { ... }
20:33:48 <kmc> (or maybe one can omit one of those sets of parens)
20:34:00 <Halite> Quick! What is (x and !y) or (!y and x) equal to?
20:34:10 <kmc> augur: right, it's not weird in Lisp because I'm used to Lisp syntax being expression-oriented
20:34:30 <oklofok> Halite: isn't it kind of abstractly explanatory
20:34:32 <Halite> Quick! What is (x and !y) or (!x and y) equal to?
20:34:47 <kmc> augur: but Rust mimics C syntax on a concrete level, while turning statement-blocks into expressions
20:34:49 <Halite> ^^ answer that now, slightly different ^^
20:34:54 <kmc> so there's some dissonance
20:35:29 <kmc> you can also do things like «return 1 + (return 2 + (return 3))»
20:35:40 <Bike> which returns three?
20:36:10 <Bike> was there a particular rationale for rust's syntax?
20:36:25 <kmc> this aspect of it, you mean?
20:36:25 <Halite> I mean, (x and !y) or (!x and y) means: x,y must be true,false (where x and !y = true), or false,true (where !x and y = true) -- ORed together it's obviously x xor y
20:36:42 <oklofok> Halite: if you flip x, it becomes (!x and !y) or (x and y), which is equality. so the original is xor i guess.
20:36:44 <Bike> kmc: just in general, I mean.
20:37:06 <oklofok> i mean that's kind of abstractly explanatory
20:37:25 <Halite> yes it is- and that it explains the truth table is too
20:37:26 <kmc> Bike: I think it's the usual tension between "familiar to C and C++ programmers" and "better"
20:38:03 <kmc> the more you want to do high-level and higher-order stuff, the more expression-oriented syntax is appealing
20:38:07 <kmc> and it's just cleaner in a sense, too
20:38:17 <oklofok> and abstractly explanatory
20:39:01 <kmc> Halite: look, I don't *like* the fact that most languages in use today have C-inspired syntax, but this fact makes it hard to claim that tossing out C syntax entirely will "win"
20:39:05 <Halite> not exactly, if you used a really complicated function f(x, y), you can't look at it and say "ooh, its table is false,true,false,true" or something
20:39:09 <kmc> if your definition of "win" includes anything about people actually using your language
20:39:24 <kmc> I don't love Rust's syntax but it's good enough
20:40:04 <Halite> I think I might make mine a hugely stripped down dialect of Lisp
20:40:11 <Halite> After all, I <3 parenthesis
20:40:12 <Bike> halite have you considered that this concept you're getting at is actually incoherent crap
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20:40:48 <Halite> Bike: have you considered that I have considered that and went no outright?
20:41:02 <Bike> you didn't even think about it?
20:41:21 <mnoqy> what's going on here
20:41:25 <Halite> "Ooh, mysterically hard programming language, let's do it!"
20:41:27 <Bike> Abstract explanation.
20:41:34 <Halite> mysterically = great for being esoteric
20:42:07 <Halite> Bike: 'abstractly explanatory' is just a term I made up. No mentions to it will be given in any other sense.
20:42:49 <nooodl> mnoqy: we're talking about abstractly explanatory sets of boolean functions ☺
20:42:57 <mnoqy> good for communication. now everyone will know what you mean
20:43:21 <Halite> 'abstractly' -> not that basic, in-depth
20:43:28 <Halite> explanatory -> like self-explanatory stuff
20:43:40 <Halite> indepth self-explaining
20:43:48 <mnoqy> nooodl: yeah i saw those words happening a bit up there
20:44:21 <oklofok> mnoqy: abstract explanatority is actually really simple once you get the hang of it; for example consider x NAND y NOR z
20:44:39 <Halite> you can explain "(x and !y) or (!x and y)" - it is only true when x=true y=false or x=false y=true -- it's obvious
20:45:15 <Halite> but it doesn't explain seperate entries in the truth table
20:45:27 <oklofok> as for x NAND y NOR z, you cannot actually explain what the meaning _is_
20:45:36 <oklofok> so it's not abstractly explanatory
20:45:48 <Halite> for "(x and !y) or (!x and y)", "x and !y" is a truth table entity, "!x and y" is a truth table entity.
20:46:28 <oklofok> are we talking about parsing here or what
20:46:39 <Halite> so an operation that expresses ONLY a single truth table entry with a negation and a connection operation
20:46:41 <oklofok> x NAND y NOR z has two conceivable parse trees
20:46:42 <Bike> you're my hero oklofok
20:47:13 <Halite> phew people are beginning to understand it now - are they
20:47:39 <oklofok> Bike: i hi5'd myself so bad when i got the "yes"
20:48:03 <oklofok> Halite: i don't really know what you mean, but i'm somewhat curious as to whether you just mean unambiguous parsing
20:48:22 <Halite> I don't mean unambigous parsing
20:49:01 <Halite> I mean that there is an operation with just one combination for truth, a negation operation, and an operation to sticky the single truth table entites together
20:49:34 <Halite> which are {AND (0,0,0,1), OR (0,1,1,1), NOT (1,0)}
20:49:48 <oklofok> "with just one combination for truth" you mean an operation where only one combination evaluates to 1?
20:50:09 <mnoqy> so are you talking about disjunctive normal form or what
20:50:20 <Halite> what is the disjunctive normal form?
20:50:24 <Bike> talkin bout my baby
20:50:26 <mnoqy> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjunctive_normal_form
20:50:55 <Bike> well, earlier halite /was/ trying to describe minterms...
20:51:34 <Halite> Exactly what I was talking about
20:52:01 <oklofok> and here i thought i had you all figured out
20:52:36 <Bike> cool, wikipedia has different articles on disjunctive normal form and canonical normal form for some reaosn.
20:52:51 <Halite> ^^ and I'm glad for it ^^
20:53:44 <Slereah> "Canonical normal form" is the least helpful word ever
20:53:52 <oklofok> was just about to say that
20:54:05 <Slereah> You could basically call it "That thing we use a lot"
20:54:09 <oklofok> i thought the article for "canonical normal form" would be about canonical normal forms in general
20:54:21 <oklofok> or are we talking about the same thing
20:54:29 <Bike> well, it is. but disjunctive and conjunctive are the normal forms that get used most.
20:54:47 <oklofok> for logical formulas maybe
20:54:49 <mnoqy> what about normal canonical form
20:54:50 <Bike> p canonical imo,,,
20:54:54 <oklofok> but other things have canonical normal forms too
20:55:22 <Bike> well "canonical normal form" is restricted to boolean algebra. for... some reason.
20:55:38 <mnoqy> thanks wikipedia, the authority on math's
20:55:38 <Bike> Maybe both articles ar ejust kind of crappy??
20:56:08 <oklofok> i guess i'd just say normal form in most contexts
20:56:22 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_form wow this article is kind of
20:56:49 <oklofok> yeah that's what i thought canonical normal form would be
20:57:38 <HackEgo> normological canoform? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:57:39 <Bike> that wouldn't work for all things, like, in linalg a "normal" matrix means something by itself, so you'd end up with a normal canonical normal matrix or some shit.
20:57:45 <Bike> basically, fuck mat
20:57:50 <Slereah> So I am doing some functional esolang thing
20:58:05 <Slereah> Should I only define all the arguments once
20:58:25 <Slereah> Inside the function definition
20:58:34 <Slereah> For a big vector thing of arguments
20:58:38 <Bike> sounds suspiciously like math
20:58:44 <Slereah> I can extract them all since I have a projection function
20:59:16 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:59:34 <mnoqy> what do you mean by "should" you?
20:59:55 <Halite> I <3 disjunctive normal forms.
21:00:00 <Slereah> It is the way µ recursive functions are defined, technically
21:00:13 <Slereah> You have to always use all arguments for every operation in the function
21:00:15 <myname> Halite: that would make a great t-shirt
21:00:18 <Slereah> And select one by the projection
21:00:45 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_form_(natural_deduction) awesome
21:01:07 <mnoqy> Slereah: what do you mean by good idea!
21:01:36 <Slereah> mnoqy : Will I one day wake up covered in sweat in my bed tormented by the demons of what could have been
21:01:50 <mnoqy> in that case you can just change the spec
21:01:51 <Halite> there are 11 kinds of people in the world: those who don't understand DNF.
21:02:11 <Slereah> Also I will implement it via trees
21:02:18 <Slereah> Will it help the implementation or not
21:02:25 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:02:58 <mnoqy> how am i supposed to answer if i don't know what the question means!
21:03:17 <Slereah> Use your woman's intuition
21:03:34 <Slereah> I mean, some things, sometimes
21:03:42 <Slereah> You just know it will not be a good idea
21:03:49 <Slereah> The guy who did Malbolge should have asked
21:04:52 <Halite> What kind of formula do you get when you make a simple conversion method from a multiplexor setup to a formula of boolean algebra? I know now -- its my favourite question
21:05:26 <Halite> FireFly: A DNF (disjunctive normal form) formula.
21:05:37 <Bike> forma forma fo forma
21:06:36 <Halite> NOT operations would have most precedence, AND would have second precedence and OR the lowest.
21:06:49 <Halite> I bet that could be the standard too.
21:07:25 <FireFly> I think that's fairly common, yes
21:07:29 <Bike> now, what kind of logic normal form do you get from a butterfly shifter.
21:07:47 <Halite> you get a palindromic one
21:07:56 <Halite> because butterflies are symmetric
21:08:21 <Halite> and palindromes are horizontally symmetric
21:10:41 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:11:48 -!- FireFly has joined.
21:14:14 <Halite> Now what behaviour of {or, and, not} under object inputs would be most like a possible 'DNF' for object input?
21:19:03 -!- JesseH has joined.
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21:20:49 <Halite> I was thinking "make this a bit like Lisp" and I find myself now rejecting parenthesis
21:26:16 <Halite> I'm finding myself calling false a dummy name for ¬true...
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21:36:16 <Halite> lol I've been able to call nil neither truish nor falsy
21:37:44 <kmc> @oeis 0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4
21:37:57 <lambdabot> 1's-counting sequence: number of 1's in binary expansion of n (or the binary...
21:38:27 <Halite> @oeis 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8
21:38:32 <lambdabot> Fibonacci numbers: F(n) = F(n-1) + F(n-2) with F(0) = 0 and F(1) = 1.[0,1,1,...
21:39:46 <mnoqy> it wouldn't be a very good oeis without fibo's now would it
21:39:49 <Bike> oh, i like cloitre's way of constructing the 1s counting.
21:40:11 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:41:03 <Bike> @oeis 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 8
21:41:08 <lambdabot> Hofstadter Q-sequence: a(1) = a(2) = 1; a(n) = a(n-a(n-1)) + a(n-a(n-2)) for...
21:41:47 <Halite> I made it time out with a simple sequence.
21:41:52 <Halite> @oeis 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2
21:41:52 <lambdabot> n mod 3.[0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0...
21:42:11 <Halite> [21:39] <Halite> @oeis 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2 [21:39] <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
21:42:31 <Halite> @oeis 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
21:42:51 <kmc> @run iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map (+1) xs)) [0]
21:42:59 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
21:43:00 <lambdabot> [[0],[0,1],[0,1,1,2],[0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3],[0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4],[0...
21:43:05 <kmc> why am I having trouble translating this to give the final result only, with 'fix'...
21:44:29 <Bike> > fix (\xs -> xs ++ (map (+1) xs))
21:44:40 <Bike> a good fixed point
21:45:53 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:46:29 <kmc> the least fixed point
21:46:31 <Taneb> > scanl (+) 0 [1..]
21:46:32 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,...
21:46:34 <kmc> and yet the greatest
21:47:09 <Taneb> > scanl (+) $ repeat 1
21:47:11 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
21:47:19 <Taneb> > scanl (+) 0 $ repeat 1
21:47:20 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
21:47:37 <Taneb> Wait, this isn't the result at all
21:47:45 <Bike> > iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map (+1) xs)) [1]
21:47:46 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,2],[1,2,2,3],[1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4],[1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5],[1...
21:48:12 <Taneb> Halite, this is like the haskelliest channel that doesn't begin with an h or a d
21:48:13 <Halite> Haskell is a nightmare. It distorted my knowledge of data types
21:48:22 <drlemon> What does glogbot do? EgoBot? HackEgo? (That's also a bot right?)
21:48:29 <drlemon> I know someone who's learning haskell.
21:48:39 <Bike> glog does logs.
21:48:52 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
21:48:53 <kmc> Haskell is a nightmare from which you can never truly awake
21:49:01 <Bike> &help to your heart's content
21:49:07 <Halite> I like some of the concepts in Haskell but it's not really my cup of tea
21:49:19 <Halite> Lua's far better in my opinion
21:49:34 <kmc> Halite: i prefer tea and cheesecake
21:49:40 <Halite> and I don't mean just because some desktop powder game-like thing has a Lua API.
21:49:50 <kmc> powder game
21:49:54 <Bike> > iterate (\(a,b) -> (a+b,a)) (0,0)
21:49:55 <lambdabot> [(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0...
21:50:04 <Bike> why did i expect that to work.
21:50:06 <Bike> > iterate (\(a,b) -> (a+b,a)) (0,1)
21:50:08 <lambdabot> [(0,1),(1,0),(1,1),(2,1),(3,2),(5,3),(8,5),(13,8),(21,13),(34,21),(55,34),(...
21:50:20 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:50:32 <Taneb> drlemon, glogbot is a logger, EgoBot has a bunch of interpreters for esolangs, HackEgo is actually a linux system (don't bother trying to break it)
21:50:42 <Taneb> drlemon, fungot is a markov chain AI written in Befunge
21:50:42 <fungot> Taneb: i am trying to make some progress. we don't have bgp turned off in the end, those two in no particular order.
21:50:55 <fungot> drlemon: i didn't get it :) i'm sorry, i don't remember it, and you're trying to find
21:51:21 <Halite> > onceagain make Halite haskelllover
21:51:23 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `onceagain'Not in scope: `make'
21:51:31 <mnoqy> remember what happened last time you did that
21:51:43 <Halite> (Remembers off the back of my head)
21:51:44 <drlemon> What languages does EgoBot have?
21:51:54 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:51:58 <Bike> !help languages
21:51:58 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
21:51:59 <Halite> Must... resist... the... urge...
21:52:20 <drlemon> Dear god what does it look like when someone sends a befunge program to the channel
21:52:31 <Taneb> drlemon, metasepia is a little utilities bot, and jconn I think is a J interpreter
21:52:48 <Bike> kmc: now stuck thinking of analogies between dynamic systems and iterated functions. V_V
21:52:50 <Halite> EgoBot is often disposited to support Haskell
21:53:09 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit).
21:53:12 <drlemon> Someone make EgoBot run a befunge program, i need to see what this looks like
21:53:33 <kmc> Bike: like iterated function systems?
21:54:15 <Bike> yeah. since the problem here is basically finding the limit set of the orbit from a given initial condition.
21:54:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iterated_function_system i like the two pictures at the top
21:54:28 <kmc> like, it's so cool that you can get from the first to the second with a few generalizations & tricks
21:54:42 <Bike> > iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map (+1) xs)) [1,7,19]
21:54:43 <lambdabot> [[1,7,19],[1,7,19,2,8,20],[1,7,19,2,8,20,2,8,20,3,9,21],[1,7,19,2,8,20,2,8,...
21:56:08 <Bike> eugh, and /now/ i feel bad about not finishing my real analysis book, thaks wikipedia
21:56:43 <fizzie> `interp befunge 025*"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@
21:56:57 <fizzie> (That's more or less equivalent to EgoBot !befunge, I guess?)
21:57:04 <fizzie> (Except that it works.)
21:58:59 <Taneb> FireFly, it's a weird BF game, closer to Core Wars than BFJoust
21:59:02 <kmc> Bike: we can feel bad about stuff together
21:59:10 <fizzie> FireFly: FukYorBrane is the keyword to look up.
21:59:12 <FireFly> I guess I'll just ignore it
21:59:20 <FireFly> Oh, I think I've seen that on the wiki long ago
21:59:41 <fizzie> I don't think it's terribly popular.
22:00:08 <FireFly> a corewarsy befunge game might be fun
22:00:53 <fizzie> I think that was proposed.
22:01:16 -!- Effilry has joined.
22:01:38 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2).
22:01:41 <fizzie> "BeGlad (Befunge Gladiators) is more like Core Wars; Programs written in a modified version of Befunge-97 actually attack within Befunge-space itself, trying to force the other program to run out of processes and die."
22:01:44 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly.
22:02:44 <Halite> run out of processes and die
22:03:54 <Bike> :t fix iterate
22:03:55 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = [a0]
22:03:55 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0
22:03:55 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> [a0]
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22:19:59 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:20:48 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
22:21:02 <FireFly> Yeah, it's broken. Bike tried to fix it
22:21:13 <Bike> Yes. That is what happened.
22:21:59 <Halite> wait, so iterate shows all the steps in an array?
22:22:06 <Halite> that's cooler than when fixed
22:22:48 <FireFly> It repeatedly runs a function on a value, yes
22:23:01 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> t))
22:23:17 <Halite> but it shows all the steps and the current array at each step
22:23:23 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
22:24:00 <lambdabot> [1,3,9,27,81,243,729,2187,6561,19683,59049,177147,531441,1594323,4782969,14...
22:24:11 <kmc> Halite: it's a list not an array
22:24:25 <Bike> > ( fix (\f xs -> let ys = (xs ++ (map (1+) xs)) in ys ++ f ys)) [0] -- well, i'm getting there.
22:24:26 <lambdabot> [0,1,0,1,1,2,0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,0,1,1,2,1,2,2,...
22:24:33 <kmc> Halite: yeah
22:25:16 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Classes.Ord ((a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> [a0]))
22:25:19 <kmc> arrays are fixed size and contiguous in memory; lists are linked lists
22:25:25 <FireFly> Halite: nope, that's an error. Sorry.
22:25:35 <kmc> these are kind of implementation details but really not, because they affect the API
22:25:45 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
22:25:55 <kmc> > iterate (<3)
22:25:56 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Bool)
22:26:09 <Halite> Enter a number n from 1 to 6 followed by <3. It will tell you if n loves you or not.
22:27:33 <kmc> if you have «instance Num Bool where { fromInteger 0 = False; fromInteger _ = True }» then «iterate (<3) 0» gives [False,True,False,True,False,True,...]
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22:28:48 <kmc> what is meant by "?"
22:29:06 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:29:36 <Halite> It means 6 <3 ? false : true
22:29:53 <Halite> aka. 6, do you love me? False or true?
22:30:12 <kmc> this is dumb
22:32:28 <kmc> http://koryos.tumblr.com/post/63659581034/stuckinabucket-camwyn-sci-universe
22:32:29 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/1780b04cff1c23275f2c6ca0defbc6b2/tumblr_mu8ulbVfYC1qmvxavo3_1280.jpg
22:32:47 <Bike> at least i think that's what that is
22:33:01 <kmc> a beautiful tiny sea creature which eats Portuguese man o' war to steal its stinging cells
22:34:53 <Halite> we need to implement integers to implement integers into my schematic
22:34:56 <Bike> hm, nope, shame.
22:38:59 <Halite> I have a really tough goal to accomplish with my schematic
22:39:27 <Halite> Not only to implement it one day, but only with booleans and pairs (two-element tables indexed with booleans).
22:40:37 <Halite> ah nvm you are probably taking me serious anyway
22:41:13 <kmc> i don't care enough to take it seriously or not
22:45:06 <Halite> I just found myself thinking that pairs are functions and are DNFs.
22:48:38 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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22:50:23 <kmc> yeah product types and function types are the same thing in dependently typed systems
22:50:42 <Halite> I don't have the programming abilities to make an interpreter of this schematic
22:50:50 <Halite> Can someone help me when it gets finished
22:54:23 <Halite> lol now functions are arrays are classes...
22:55:48 <oerjan> myname: the 01 and 10 trick depends on the fact that you can only have those occuring alternating with each other.
22:56:26 <oerjan> so the difference in number can never exceed 1.
22:57:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:58:01 * oerjan needs to stop assuming people are present just because they're here.
22:58:32 -!- augur has joined.
22:58:54 <oerjan> @tell myname the 01 and 10 trick depends on the fact that you can only have those occuring alternating with each other. so the difference in number can never exceed 1.
23:00:07 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:00:46 <oerjan> @tell olsner <olsner> "<oerjan> `addquote <ion> olsner: " <-- that quote doesn't really need to include me <-- we don't approve of misquoting irc lines in these here parts.
23:00:51 -!- Koen_ has joined.
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23:08:06 <Halite> It takes me so long to write a few functions down...
23:08:37 <Halite> I've only got 25 lines total and only 12 that actually show functions
23:14:50 <oerjan> <Halite> but I think XOR and OR are a set that is turing complete <-- time to check out the old https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%27s_lattice
23:15:27 <oerjan> or maybe to notice that you cannot get true/1 unless you have them to start with.
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23:18:47 <oerjan> in fact the diagram shows that or, xor (denoted V, +) generate P_0, which is every boolean function which has the property that you cannot get 1 without putting one in.
23:18:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
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23:19:11 <oerjan> (diagram about midway in the article.)
23:20:39 <oerjan> it takes a while to learn to read that.
23:20:53 <Halite> I have definition of variables, constants, operators, functions, arrays and classes. Do I need more?
23:21:57 <kmc> maybe you don't need to liveblog every single step of writing this program here
23:22:27 <Halite> I was thinking that myself
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23:24:44 <Halite> ok but I do need to know if I need more in my schematic
23:24:55 <kmc> i don't know what you're trying to accomplish
23:25:00 <kmc> or even what you mean by "schematic"
23:25:05 <kmc> it's a language you're designing?
23:25:15 <Halite> a schematic is a programming language lower level than assembly
23:25:35 <oerjan> circuit design, i take it.
23:25:51 <kmc> a "schematic" would be a specification for a particular circuit
23:25:56 <kmc> you're designing a language for writing schematics
23:26:15 <Halite> someone told me it was a language lower than assembly
23:26:22 <Halite> it could've been higher than circuits
23:26:22 <kmc> people say a lot of things
23:26:45 <kmc> "circuit" could mean a lot of things... a circuit of logic gates is very different from a [Dcircuit of electrical components
23:26:52 <kmc> ignore that [D
23:26:54 * kmc kicks irssi
23:29:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <Halite> a schematic is a programming language lower level than assembly
23:29:51 <Bike> did you need to quote that
23:30:01 <Phantom_Hoover> interestingly ais523 already made a language 'lower-level' than assembly
23:30:13 <Bike> @google esolang checkout
23:30:15 <Halite> did it involve anything other than booleans?
23:30:20 <Bike> alas, it's totally impossible to understand.
23:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> on the basis that actual machine code is highly abstracted from the way CPUs actually work these days
23:30:53 <Halite> they work with lots of gates, and LOTS
23:31:18 <Halite> and multiplexers excetra excetra
23:31:22 <Bike> they're not really designed on the gate level.
23:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> what you're talking about is not really 'lower-level' than assembly anyway, it's a parallel hierarchy
23:31:58 <Bike> Because how would you describe something like caching or pipelining in turns of gates?
23:32:04 <Bike> and more importantly, why would you.
23:32:27 <Bike> It would be like describing an animal in terms of electron orbitals. Pointless, misleading, and honestly, wrong.
23:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> there's... you have a misconception here, where you think that designing a new chip is 'low-level'
23:33:31 <Halite> assembly is built on new chips :D
23:33:42 <FireFly> I think Halite should write a Feather implementation for us
23:33:50 <Bike> The same assembly language can run on multiple microarchitectures.
23:33:52 <Bike> Scandalous, I know.
23:33:54 <FireFly> Although that language is arguably on the other end of the spectrum
23:33:56 <kmc> Bike: you can describe those things in terms of gates, for a notion of "gates" which includes stateful things as well
23:34:07 * kmc casts Summon Fiora
23:34:17 <Bike> what level spell is that? zzo?
23:34:27 <Halite> to be honest lower-than-assembly languages with classes... wtf is wrong with me
23:34:40 <Bike> maybe she did.
23:34:53 <Fiora> um um I'm not sure where to start on that
23:34:59 <Bike> explain the basis of modern life over irc to a stranger
23:35:13 <kmc> hey Halite you should a) learn to be quieter, b) do the projects from http://6004.mit.edu/
23:35:15 <Fiora> um the DNA is connected to the, RNA
23:35:20 <Fiora> the RNA is connected to the, proteins
23:35:21 <kmc> in which you design a CPU at the gate level
23:35:24 <kmc> including pipelining
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23:35:46 <Bike> clearly it's time for me to talk about how silly the central dogma is
23:35:48 <Fiora> you asked for the basis of modern life!!
23:36:34 -!- augur_ has joined.
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23:37:58 <Bike> hm. i actually don't know how i'd explain 'life'. kind of an interesting question.
23:39:02 <Bike> maybe just start with fungi. that way i can have kmc do the hard part of intro and i can just follow up.
23:39:56 <Bike> i guess the problem is that fungi aren't autotrophs. and neither are viruses, by virtue of not being anythingtrophs
23:40:30 <Halite> computers are entirely based on ram and rom
23:40:44 <Halite> I don't even see or, and, not operations
23:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> so is a fungus that feeds on vessels for animal feed called a troughtroph
23:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, you see the scale of the problem re Halite here
23:41:13 <Bike> instead you get ridiculousities of grammar like "mixotroph"
23:41:37 <kmc> Halite like... read a book or something
23:41:58 <Bike> halite's actually illiterate and irc-ing through voice recognition (thanks fizzie)
23:42:04 <kmc> what do you mean that computers are based on RAM and ROM and not logic gates?
23:42:09 <Halite> ok I am redoing it all
23:42:13 <kmc> they have loads of logic gates
23:42:26 <Bike> is that a biplane
23:42:26 <kmc> (also you can implement a logic gate with a small RAM, which is how FPGAs work)
23:42:29 <Halite> and I just deleted my language too
23:42:41 <Halite> kmc: and a multiplexer
23:42:54 <Bike> the circle of stupidity.
23:42:56 <mnoqy> ram comes in many exciting flavours
23:43:06 <kmc> static RAM is basically logic gates
23:43:10 <Bike> lemme blow your mind here: a ram is a multiplexer??
23:43:19 <kmc> dynamic RAM works by storing charge in a capacitor
23:43:28 <Bike> with flip flops or whatever.
23:43:41 <Bike> my biology class actually started with population biology.
23:43:49 <kmc> but some people would use "logic gates" to mean purely combinational logic, which would exclude any RAM because it's stateful
23:44:06 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
23:44:12 -!- kmc has kicked Halite come back when you're not bouncing off the walls.
23:44:16 <pikhq> kmc: Though IMO if you discuss "gates" you're meaning "things analogous to circuits".
23:44:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o kmc.
23:44:25 <Bike> ok, well, sorry for going on with that.
23:44:28 <pikhq> Which end up necessarily being stateful.
23:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i kind of like how the 'standard' view of low-level computing is totally wrong
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23:44:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh?
23:44:49 <kmc> wow Halite learned self control in 15 seconds
23:44:54 <Halite> Just quiet me and I'll tell you when I've finished
23:45:01 <kmc> Teach Yourself To Exist In Society In 24 Hours
23:45:19 <Bike> pikhq: see, now i want a computing substrate that uses gauss's law and other electrodynamics instead of "just" idealized circuits.
23:45:42 <nooodl> Halite: that's kinda what kmc just did! you were supposed to come back when finished
23:45:45 <Phantom_Hoover> well like, as various people have just been saying it doesn't all reduce to logic gates on silicon
23:45:47 <Bike> you got some kinda problem with integrals pikhq??
23:45:59 <pikhq> I just dislike computing them.
23:46:03 <Bike> relatedly you know what's really weird? the way coulomb's law is an empirical one.
23:46:06 <Bike> like, what the heck
23:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> and then there's the fact that 'machine' code is essentially a heavily interpreted language
23:46:31 <Halite> I don't like kicks nooodl. I prefer +q.
23:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> you can derive coulomb's law from maxwell's equations can't you
23:46:54 <nooodl> what's an empirical law?
23:47:28 <Bike> gauss's law is part of maxwell's equations, right?
23:47:55 <pikhq> Yeah, it's pretty funny that essentially all ISAs are just abstractions around stuff.
23:48:01 <pikhq> *Especially* on x86.
23:49:17 <kmc> Halite: I don't think what you like is very relevant in this situation.
23:49:25 <Bike> well i mean, what's the basis of gauss's law? just, hey, we checked and things work like this.
23:49:34 <Bike> I guess it's the same for kinematics too.
23:49:48 <pikhq> Bike: Welcome to empiricism.
23:50:13 <kmc> Halite: anyway I will take you coming back as an indication that you learned very quickly how to control yourself, which is great if true, but if I kick you again it'll be a ban
23:50:18 <kmc> so be careful
23:50:23 <Bike> well, after some abstraction, i guess, sure.
23:51:27 <Bike> I'm just used to physics being "OK here's this rule, which works because of some things involving smaller things that we'll go over in the next level class", so it's weird that coulomb's law is just... the end.
23:51:28 <mnoqy> in which science is a load of balogna. why can't we create a universe with nice laws and live in it instead of trying to model this confusing heap of junk
23:51:43 <Halite> kmc: But sometimes I do need to ask questions about what's coming and nobody thinks twice
23:52:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, well like i said gauss' law seems to be considered more 'fundamental' these days
23:52:07 <kmc> Halite: but you lose that privilege by annoying people
23:52:16 <kmc> which is all the more reason for you to cease your annoying behavior
23:52:36 <Halite> I hope you know, kmc, that I don't want to be annoying.
23:52:38 <kmc> it's not like being +q would allow you to ask questions either............
23:52:39 <Bike> mnoqy: iunno, "flux through a surface is proportional to the charge in the surface" isn't so bad as laws go.
23:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> since a) it works better with non-point charges and b) you can derive coulomb's law from it with a dirac delta and spherical symmetry
23:52:56 <kmc> Halite: i'm glad
23:52:59 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: they're like, you can prove one from the other, right
23:53:32 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, although you'll need to poke at coulomb's a bit to cover the full range of stuff gauss' covers
23:53:47 <Bike> for my next "i'm high as hell and don't know physics" question, imo what's the deal with multiple time dimensions??
23:54:29 <Bike> I don't know, like, what would that even mean.
23:54:33 <mnoqy> there can't be that many deals can there? how about all of them
23:54:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess you can add extra negative terms into the minkowski metric
23:54:39 <Bike> Some physicists seem to have some idea but I sure don't.
23:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember something interesting about that but i forgot what it was
23:54:59 <Bike> Oh, Wikipedia has an article.
23:55:25 <Bike> And it says exactly what you just said! GOod job.
23:56:22 <Bike> but i was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time#Privileged_character_of_3.2B1_spacetime
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23:58:59 <Bike> But like I see stuff like "For example, when N < 3, nerves cannot cross without intersecting." and think "well aren't you uncreative"
23:59:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if the poor fuckers realised what they were getting into when they started investigating it
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23:59:45 <Bike> which fuckers exactly
00:00:04 <Bike> hm, maybe this paper from 1917 will enlighten me!!
00:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> whoever started writing about nerves being unable to cross
00:00:27 <Bike> what are they getting into
00:00:59 <Bike> mnoqy: hey what's that book on foundations or whatever that's under git
00:01:16 <mnoqy> the homotopy type theory one?
00:01:19 <Bike> yeah that thanks
00:01:33 <mnoqy> http://homotopytypetheory.org/book/ this one
00:02:27 <Bike> googling "hott book" gets you pinups
00:02:27 <Bike> should have expected that tbh
00:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> does anyone actually know what it has to do with homotopy
00:05:54 <mnoqy> they talk about it in the book
00:06:06 <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
00:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember paths were involved but i don't remember that helping
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00:34:24 <oerjan> > fix $ (1:).tail.(<**>[id,succ])
00:34:25 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,3,4,4,5,4,5,5,6,2,3,3,4,3,...
00:34:48 <kmc> :t (<**>[id,succ])
00:34:55 <kmc> > (<**>[id,succ]) "hello"
00:35:21 <kmc> oh interleaved, interesting
00:35:30 <kmc> > (<**>[id,succ]) [0,1,1,2]
00:35:32 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
00:36:17 <kmc> huh so you can get this sequence by repeatedly concat'ing the succ'd sequence OR by repeatedly interleaving the succ'd sequence
00:36:20 <kmc> that's interesting
00:39:29 <nooodl> > fix $ (False:).tail.(<**>[id,not])
00:39:30 <lambdabot> [False,True,True,False,True,False,False,True,True,False,False,True,False,Tr...
00:42:41 <oerjan> kmc: it's basically the difference between counting bits in little-endian or big-endian order
00:43:23 <kmc> oerjan: hm, yeah
00:43:48 <Bike> oerjan: how would you do it with concat?
00:43:52 <oerjan> nooodl: yeah that's thue-morse, which is just the (inversed) parity of kmc's sequence
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00:45:58 <oerjan> oh wait kmc _did_ start his sequence at 0, it was Bike who changed that to 1. so scratch "(inversed)"
00:46:22 <Bike> oh,i was just testing initial conditions.
00:46:40 <Bike> > fix $ ([4,6,3]++).tail.(<**>[id,succ])
00:46:47 <Bike> > fix $ ([4,6,3]++).tail.(<**>[id,succ])
00:46:50 <lambdabot> [4,6,3,5,6,7,3,4,5,6,6,7,7,8,3,4,4,5,5,6,6,7,6,7,7,8,7,8,8,9,3,4,4,5,4,5,5,...
00:47:01 <nooodl> > (!!4) $ iterate (\x -> x ++ [map succ $ concat x]) [[0]]
00:47:02 <lambdabot> [[0],[1],[1,2],[1,2,2,3],[1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4]]
00:47:07 <Bike> that's... is that the same
00:47:21 <oerjan> Bike: your adjustment makes no sense with my method.
00:47:47 <Bike> pshaw, expecting i'd at all understand something before hitting it with a tastefully tasseled wrench.
00:48:25 <Bike> I want a function that takes a list and gives you the result of infinite iterations of (\xs -> xs ++ (map (1+) xs)).
00:48:31 <nooodl> > concat $ fix $ ([0]:).(\x -> x ++ [map succ $ concat x])
00:48:32 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
00:48:35 <Bike> or generalize that, who fuckin cares.
00:48:39 <Bike> fuck everything. fuck everybody
00:48:54 <Bike> I'm ahead of the curve, thefuc-related curve
00:50:04 <Bike> in other words, a fixed point combinator that doesn't give bottom all the fucking time.
00:50:18 <nooodl> Bike: take the diagonal of "iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map (1+) xs)) start". imo optimized??
00:50:45 <nooodl> that's gotta be like O(2^n^n^n)
00:51:10 <Bike> now let me take a few minutes to work out how to write diagnoal :V
00:51:56 <nooodl> does that work?? i'm pretty tired
00:52:16 <nooodl> > zipWith (!!) [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] [0..]
00:52:23 <oerjan> > let f l = (+) <$> l <*> (fix $ (0:).tail.(<**>[id,succ])) in f [4,6,3]
00:52:24 <lambdabot> [4,5,5,6,5,6,6,7,5,6,6,7,6,7,7,8,5,6,6,7,6,7,7,8,6,7,7,8,7,8,8,9,5,6,6,7,6,...
00:53:03 <oerjan> > let f l = (+) <$> (fix $ (0:).tail.(<**>[id,succ])) <*> l in f [4,6,3]
00:53:05 <lambdabot> [4,6,3,5,7,4,5,7,4,6,8,5,5,7,4,6,8,5,6,8,5,7,9,6,5,7,4,6,8,5,6,8,5,7,9,6,6,...
00:53:55 <nooodl> > let xs = [4,6,3] ++ map (1+) xs in xs
00:53:56 <lambdabot> [4,6,3,5,7,4,6,8,5,7,9,6,8,10,7,9,11,8,10,12,9,11,13,10,12,14,11,13,15,12,1...
00:54:09 <nooodl> ah. yes. ok i really need to go to bed
00:54:19 <Bike> > fix (\f get xss -> (get.head xss):(f (get.tail) (tail xss))) head [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8.9]]
00:54:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> [c0]' with actual type `[t0]'Couldn't m...
00:54:28 <Bike> it's cool how i'm the worst programmer ever.
00:55:22 <Bike> > zipWith (!!) ((\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0]) [0..]
00:55:23 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show c0)
00:55:23 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M1104756188.sh...
00:55:38 <Bike> ((\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0])
00:55:42 <Bike> > ((\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0])
00:55:44 <nooodl> at least i'm a worse biologist!
00:55:57 <Bike> > (iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0])
00:55:58 <lambdabot> [[0],[0,1],[0,1,1,2],[0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3],[0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4],[0...
00:56:01 <Bike> right. yeah. wow.
00:56:10 <Bike> > zipWith (!!) (iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0]) [0..]
00:56:12 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,1,2,2,3,2,...
00:56:36 <Bike> @let diagonal ls = zipWith (!!) ls [0..]
00:56:48 <Bike> > diagonal $ iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0..]
00:56:52 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
00:57:00 <Bike> imo i'm a genius ;_;
00:57:24 <Bike> let's check oeis
00:57:28 <Bike> @oeis 0,1,2,3,4,5,6
00:57:37 <lambdabot> Digital sum (i.e. sum of digits) of n; also called digsum(n).[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,...
00:57:56 <kmc> digital bath
00:58:49 <Bike> oeis should sort by kolmogorov complexity to avoid this sort of thing
00:58:55 <Bike> > diagonal [[1,2],[3,4]]
00:59:16 <Bike> ok what did i... oh, well, wow.
00:59:21 <Bike> > diagonal $ iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0]
00:59:25 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,1,2,2,3,2,...
00:59:25 <Bike> yeah, ok, go me.
01:00:17 <Sgeo> According to Oleg, zippers are delimited continuations. Not entirely sure what that means, but I wonder what implications there are for lenses
01:00:45 <Bike> i wonder what implications there are for uzbekistan's human rights situation.
01:01:51 <oerjan> > concat . fix $ ([0]:) . map (map succ . concat) . tail . inits
01:01:52 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,1,2,2,3,2,...
01:02:18 <oerjan> someone asked about using concat.
01:02:28 <Bike> not exactly what i had in mind, but whatever.
01:02:47 <Bike> > concat . fix (([8,0,3]:) . map (map succ . concat) . tail . inits)
01:02:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[[t0]]' with `a0 -> [[a1]]'
01:03:20 <oerjan> i recommend keeping the $
01:03:28 <Bike> > concat . fix $ ([8,0,3]:) . map (map succ . concat) . tail . inits
01:03:29 <lambdabot> [8,0,3,9,1,4,9,1,4,10,2,5,9,1,4,10,2,5,10,2,5,11,3,6,9,1,4,10,2,5,10,2,5,11...
01:03:39 <Bike> ah this one works. Good Job
01:04:02 <Bike> > concat . fix $ ([8,0,3]:) . map (tail . concat) . tail . inits
01:04:03 <lambdabot> [8,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,...
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01:06:14 <oerjan> > concat . fix $ ([0]:) . scanl (++) . map (map succ)
01:06:15 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[[[b0]]] -> [[[b0]]]' with `[[b0]]'
01:07:05 <oerjan> > concat . fix $ ([0]:) . scanl1 (++) . map (map succ)
01:07:07 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,1,2,2,3,2,...
01:07:59 <oerjan> less duplication of work
01:08:09 <Bike> highly efficient
01:17:07 <kmc> http://da-data.blogspot.kr/2013/03/optimistic-cuckoo-hashing-for.html
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01:57:12 <Koen_> "Now the secret can be revealed: IO is a monad. Being a monad means you have access to some syntactical sugar with the do notation."
02:00:53 <oerjan> time to write your monad tutorial "Monads are like what did I say"
02:04:06 <oerjan> what is with wikipedia's "george" theme
02:04:49 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
02:12:31 <oerjan> ok https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Today%27s_featured_article#The_week_of_George.3F
02:12:44 <oerjan> i recall the Eagles, too.
02:16:52 <oerjan> finally girl genius updated
02:17:13 <oerjan> giant statues of agatha: check
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02:26:15 <Sgeo> Is Dream a Little Dream a good episode?
02:28:37 <doesthiswork> I wonder why they build the giant agatha statues
02:30:29 <oerjan> doesthiswork: i think gil got a little crazier in the time that has passed
02:31:10 <oerjan> he's _really_ obsessing about her now.
02:32:08 <oerjan> well old klaus said he had used a different form of mind control on him, which would mean he is _not_ wasp infected
02:32:17 <oerjan> assuming that was true.
02:33:06 <oerjan> klaus also made it _look_ like gil is infected, but that was clearly fake, because the weasel critter did not react to _klaus_ and we _know_ he is infected.
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02:33:49 <oerjan> that's my reasoning, anyway.
02:34:19 <oerjan> but with all the Other clones running around, who knows what has happened in the meantime.
02:36:20 <oerjan> also at the time that happened, there hadn't been time enough to make a new spark-infecting wasp, i assume. presumably there will have been now, so he could have been infected later.
02:37:13 <oerjan> otoh with the empire collapsed the Other might not really care what gil does any more.
02:37:54 <oerjan> any way i was just satisfied that my guess last week that there would be giant statues was correct :)
02:38:31 <oerjan> also i'm monologuing, which means it's time for...
02:38:37 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
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03:31:49 <shachaf> kmc: There, it's clearly on-topic here.
04:02:40 <kmc> perhaps hash will fix etc.
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04:10:17 <shachaf> kmc: so when you do new Foo[n] and Foo is a POD type gcc won't store n
04:10:48 <shachaf> can you do that with templates in a reasonable way
04:11:19 -!- kmc has set topic: ewige blumenkraft | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
04:12:01 <kmc> with http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/type_traits/is_pod/ i imagine
04:16:04 <kmc> Boost has had them for a while
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05:04:22 <kmc> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-24707337 "Russia: Hidden chips 'launch spam attacks from irons'"
05:10:10 <Halite[tired]> How do I generalize a shifting pattern ((0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e,f) then (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e,f,0)) in a ROM to any number of address and/or data bits?
05:11:35 <kmc> generally the patterns in a ROM aren't represented specially
05:12:00 <Halite[tired]> How do I generalize it so I can calculate the pattern for 64 address bits and 32 data bits?
05:12:02 <kmc> you just have a pile of bits
05:12:07 <kmc> what pattern?
05:12:32 <kmc> what does that pattern have to do with ROMs?
05:12:58 <Halite[tired]> well I have a ROM containing one for 8 address bits and 4 data bits in Logisim.
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05:36:35 <oklofok> "<Bike> kmc: now stuck thinking of analogies between dynamic systems and iterated functions. V_V" an iterated function system can be thought of as a dynamical system, the functions giving an action of the free monoid
05:36:47 <Bike> your mom's a free monoid
05:36:56 <oklofok> the fixed-point they generate is the limit set of the system
05:37:35 <oklofok> (fixed-points are what you care about for IFS, and limit sets are something you care about for dynamical systems)
05:37:57 <Bike> aren't they the same thing
05:38:02 <Bike> wait you just said that
05:38:59 <Bike> was halite asking how to make a shifter
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05:42:17 <kmc> i thought about linking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_shifter but wasn't sure if it was relevant
05:42:20 <kmc> but that's a thing
05:42:26 <kmc> don't know what it has to do with ROMs though
05:42:47 <kmc> there's always a tradeoff between storing your lookup table in ROM vs. computing it with gates
05:45:29 <shachaf> What's with people magically introducing GADT syntax just to express a type like "data T a = C a => T a"?
05:45:37 <kmc> GADT syntax is the best, is what
05:45:51 <kmc> in my hypothetical Haskell tutorial i will never get around to writing, we will use GADT syntax from the beginning
05:46:06 <shachaf> OK, then use it uniformly.
05:46:06 <kmc> it's less confusing
05:46:10 <kmc> yes, one should
05:46:20 <Bike> "The basic results on this resonance were obtained not by strict mathematical arguments but by a combination of guesses and computer experiments"
05:46:27 <kmc> when you write «data Foo = Bar» it's super confusing that Foo is a type and Bar a value cause there's an equals sign between them!!
05:46:30 <kmc> should be a kind error imo
05:46:36 <shachaf> But writing "don't do data C a => T a = T a, because blah blah, instead you should do data T a where T :: C a => a -> T a"
05:46:49 <shachaf> That's introducing two unrelated things at once
05:46:56 <kmc> sure, but the former is almost never useful
05:47:12 <kmc> you're saying you can write «data T a = C a => T a» in GHC?
05:47:15 <kmc> and get the latter behavior?
05:47:25 <kmc> that's pretty obscure though, isn't it?
05:47:30 <kmc> and again, GADT syntax is clearer
05:47:39 <kmc> Bike: several layers of Halachic uncertainty, randomness, and delays
05:47:44 <shachaf> Is it? It seems pretty obvious to me if that's the behavior you're oging for.
05:47:58 <shachaf> It's as obscure as ExistentialQuantification.
05:48:19 <Bike> i'm already streaming through the weird russian names here, if you told me jews came up with this four thousand years ago i'd belive you (because of knuth THANKS KNUTH)
05:48:38 <shachaf> Anyway, every GADT is represented in GHC using a combination of ExistentialQuantification and various constraints like this (including type equality constraints).
05:49:08 <shachaf> Anyway I don't object to either syntax, just to jumping to GADTs for no good reason.
05:49:13 <Bike> i feel i'm worryingly close to learning what homotopy really is.
05:49:17 <shachaf> I found the syntax very confusing when I first saw it.
05:50:03 <shachaf> The trouble with GADT syntax is that it's verbose.
05:51:30 <Bike> a functor on the category of curves,
05:51:40 <Bike> endofunctor. whtever, fuck other functors.
05:52:02 <kmc> Bike: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/Gan11.jpg
05:52:33 <Bike> a strong argument against socialist price regulation
05:53:30 <shachaf> what's a curve and what's a curve homomorphism
05:53:36 <Bike> i think a homotopy is just a continuous function between continuous functions, though.
05:54:01 <Bike> no, wait, no, it's more like parametrized.
05:54:05 <Bike> w/e. i don't know shit.
05:54:38 <Bike> a curve is something with a homotopy with a line segment, hth
05:55:03 <shachaf> am i going to have to ask https:wikipedia
05:55:35 <Bike> wikipedia literally says "a topological space which is locally homeomorphic to a line"
05:56:08 <Bike> holy shit there are some awesome names on wikipedia's "list of curves"
05:56:19 <Bike> "Trisectrix of Maclaurin" "Tschirnhausen cubic" "Witch of Agnesi"
05:56:42 <Bike> i'm pretty sure you can hire trisectrixes at brothels
05:56:58 <shachaf> everyone's heard of the witch of agnesi
05:58:49 <shachaf> Bike: ok let's start with what's a continuous function :'(
05:59:11 <Bike> do you want me to go through epsilon delta also how serious are you being
05:59:35 <shachaf> i mean in general for arbitrary topological spaces
05:59:44 <shachaf> or does some epsilon delta thing work there too
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05:59:58 <Bike> well as long as you have a metric, sure
06:00:50 <Bike> oh, yeah, what am i thinking, you don't need metrics.
06:01:20 <shachaf> how does the epsilon delta thing work in that case
06:01:57 <oklofok> "<Bike> i think a homotopy is just a continuous function between continuous functions, though." a homotopy is a _path_ between two continuous functions (it's a path pointwise, and it's continuous as a whole)
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06:02:18 <Bike> something like, for f : A -> B, if you have x there must be a neighborhood of x and a neighborhood of f(x) such that all points in the first neighborhood are in the second neighborhood under f
06:02:22 <Bike> i think that's wrong
06:02:49 <oklofok> so you move f(x) to g(x) for all x simultaneously (f and g have to have the same domain and codomain for this to make sense)
06:02:54 <Bike> "f is continuous at some point x ∈ X if and only if for any neighborhood V of f(x), there is a neighborhood U of x such that f(U) ⊆ V"
06:03:13 <Bike> oh, right, i just used the wrong quantifiers.
06:03:51 <Bike> i think that's reasonably intuitive though.
06:04:04 <Bike> the thing i quoted is right because i didn't write it. the one i did write is wrong :D
06:04:33 <Bike> this is where the whole "bike actually hasn't taken math past calculus" thing comes into play
06:04:42 <shachaf> btw i don't know any maths at all
06:04:50 <Bike> shachaf: does the definition make sense?
06:05:40 <oklofok> (generally people learn continuity quite a bit before homotopy)
06:06:11 <Bike> this is #esoteric, we don't give a shit about your "coherent pedagogical methods"!!
06:06:27 <oklofok> with your first definition, every function is continuous
06:06:37 <Bike> right, very wrong
06:06:42 <oklofok> so yeah that's probably not right
06:07:42 <Bike> since you could just take the neighborhood that is the entire space on both ends, which i realized while writing it, but i kept going anyway because gosh darn it sounded almost right.
06:08:15 <Bike> but of course if it's that every neighborhood of f has to have an image, you can keep shrinking that shit. which matches the intuition of continuity.
06:08:54 <Bike> There's probably a good definition of homotopy for function spaces instead of sequences or whatever, but I don't know it.
06:09:19 <oklofok> suppose first that f and g are paths
06:09:47 <oklofok> a homotopy is now a "rectangle" between them
06:10:09 <Bike> is this rectangle actually an infinite dimensional hypercube
06:10:16 <shachaf> i think it's just a rectangle
06:10:23 <Bike> wow, that's a relief.
06:10:36 <oklofok> it's h : [0, 1] \times [0, 1] \to X such that h(x, 0) = f(x) and h(x, 0) = g(x) for all x \in X
06:10:45 <oklofok> it's h : [0, 1] \times [0, 1] \to X such that h(x, 0) = f(x) and h(x, 1) = g(x) for all x \in X
06:11:14 <oklofok> it's h : [0, 1] \times [0, 1] \to X such that h(x, 0) = f(x) and h(x, 1) = g(x) for all x \in [0, 1]
06:11:22 <Bike> well i got the point regardless.
06:11:39 <oklofok> i only used the fact that they are paths so that i could call it a rectangle
06:11:43 <oklofok> that's the general definition
06:11:54 <Bike> so one [0,1] is how far you are along the path and the other is how far you are between paths.
06:12:03 <shachaf> is it related to natural transformations somehow
06:12:59 <Bike> maybe there's a whatever between functors and paths.
06:13:09 <oklofok> now as such this is kind of trivial: if the space X is path-connected, any two functions are homotopic
06:14:01 <shachaf> paths defined like this can't actually be composed in an associative way, right
06:14:11 <oklofok> but you can for example choose x \in [0, 1] and y \in X (in the case of paths above) and restrict to functions such that f(x) = y
06:14:25 <Bike> shachaf: well X doesn't have to be the unit interval...
06:14:38 <oklofok> (and the homotopies must also go through only such functions, so that h(x, t) = y for all time parameters t)
06:14:40 <Bike> so that kind of... puts a damper on things
06:14:55 <oklofok> i really shouldn't've called the codomain X
06:15:08 <Bike> oh, you meant that about functors being them. well sucks to be a path
06:15:22 <oklofok> shachaf: they can if you consider them only up to homotopy equivalence
06:15:45 <Bike> clearly one should compose paths by having f(1) = g(0) and just stringing them along
06:16:11 <oklofok> since non-associativity only comes from the fact that (f \circ f') \circ f'' and f \circ (f' \circ f'') are parametrized differently
06:16:31 <oklofok> Bike: you can, but that's only associative up to homoropy equivalence.
06:17:00 <shachaf> i think Bike means that you can end up with a path : [0, 2] -> X or something
06:17:02 <Bike> i really appreciate that you're taking the time to explain this to someone who's only half awake
06:17:13 <Bike> but yes that's what i meant, though shrinking the interval
06:17:32 <Bike> shachaf: just making it [0,1] instead of [0,2].
06:17:39 <shachaf> if you do that then you don't get associativity anymore
06:17:48 <shachaf> without this homotopy equivalence thing oklofok is talking about
06:17:58 <oklofok> so paths f and g compose into h(x) = f(2x) if x < 0.5 and h(x) = g(...) otherwise
06:18:06 <oklofok> where ... is something really complicated
06:19:00 <oklofok> you can also compose homotopies, the exact same way
06:19:11 <Bike> shachaf means if you did that then you'd get different shrinkages for (f.g).h and f.(g.h) though.
06:19:22 <oklofok> yes, and that's what i initially addressed
06:19:24 <Bike> well, probably. if he doesn't then pretend i did.
06:19:27 <shachaf> yes, hence the whole "only up to homotopy equivalence"
06:19:46 <shachaf> but if you did allow arbitrary [0,n] intervals then you'd get associativity
06:20:04 <shachaf> but then you have f : [0,1] -> X and g : [0,2] -> X which ought to be the same but aren't and who wants that
06:20:08 <oklofok> yeah but you wouldn't get for example an identity path
06:20:24 <shachaf> you'd get an identity path for each n
06:21:36 <oklofok> usually you want that the space forms a category with each point an object and each path a morphism, and that they form a category. for this you need shrinkage.
06:21:43 <oklofok> because otherwise you don't have an identity
06:22:12 <shachaf> Bike: so where does this endofunctor business come in
06:22:30 <Bike> why in god's name are you listening to me
06:22:38 <oklofok> you are the resident category theory expert
06:22:59 <shachaf> you're the category person around here
06:23:41 <Bike> never category i didn't liek
06:24:24 <oklofok> i'm going to chile in a few weeks to talk to people about category theory
06:24:52 <shachaf> are you visiting california while you're at it
06:25:13 <Bike> this article is available in the (closed) library but not online. do i live in a fucking cave
06:25:42 <shachaf> Bike: at least you have a library :'(
06:25:45 <Bike> good ten hours
06:25:52 <Bike> shachaf: pretty much the best thing about school
06:25:54 <kmc> cool, gcmap will tell you the farthest airport from any airport
06:26:12 <shachaf> the whole "10 hours at jfk" thing
06:26:28 <oklofok> it'll be my first visit to us
06:26:30 <shachaf> it's an "ok airport to wait in i guess"
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06:26:40 <shachaf> are you just flying through or actually visiting
06:26:54 <oklofok> after i stopped smoking, airports are pretty boring
06:27:20 <shachaf> kmc: SLC had indoor smoking rooms "how weird is that"
06:27:47 <shachaf> Salt Lake City International Airport
06:27:53 <oklofok> don't all airports have those
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06:28:40 <oklofok> unless it's so small you can just go outside
06:29:00 <shachaf> so what's the usual topology on R anyway
06:29:17 <oklofok> the order topology which is also the topology given by the obvious metric
06:29:25 <shachaf> i don't know anything about metrics
06:29:38 <oklofok> absolute value of difference
06:30:01 <oklofok> if you have a metric, then you get a topology by taking the radius r balls around each point as a basis
06:30:28 <shachaf> where balls just means open intervals i suppose
06:30:32 <Bike> the "first day in real analysis" topology
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06:30:57 <oklofok> by a ball of radius r around x i mean the set of points at distance r or less from x
06:31:14 <oklofok> and distance is absolute value of difference, if you want to get the normal topology of R
06:31:43 <shachaf> "basis" means those sets and anything you generate from them?
06:31:56 <shachaf> er, "taking ... as a basis"
06:32:15 <Bike> taking those to be neighborhoods i.e. open sets, i think
06:32:43 <shachaf> neighborhoods aren't the same as open sets
06:32:56 <Bike> oh, right, yes, and then you have the entire set of open sets by taking unions over the basis.
06:33:19 <oklofok> shachaf: yeah the actual open sets will be the arbitrary unions of those balls
06:33:39 <shachaf> do you need intersections too
06:33:45 <oklofok> neighborhoods are or are not the same as open sets depending on your definition, but i guess it's more common to define them so that they just need to contain an open set
06:33:55 <Bike> i was about to ask what a neighborhood would be if not an open set.
06:33:59 <oklofok> well you do, but you get them automatically here
06:34:13 <shachaf> wait, does Bike's definition of continuity work if you just say "open set" instead of "neighborhood"
06:34:38 <Bike> here's hoping i do enough math to get "Bike's foo" into a dictionary
06:34:39 <oklofok> because a neighborhood of x contains an open set around x
06:35:16 <oklofok> (if the open set doesn't touch x, then of course a "neighborhood of x" is a pretty useless term)
06:35:42 <shachaf> by Bike's definition i mean the one he quoted from wikipedia
06:36:37 <oklofok> you can say open set or neighborhood in most cases, and get the same thing; the difference is things like "compact neighborhood of x" are nicer if this just means a compact set that contains an open set that contains x, otherwise you have to make things simultaneously compact and open, which is hard.
06:40:00 <shachaf> so do you not need intersections of balls
06:41:46 <oklofok> well no: for any point x in the intersection of two balls, there is a ball that contains x and is contained in the intersection
06:41:54 <oklofok> (use the triangle inequality)
06:42:15 <oklofok> so in fact you get intersections by just taking the union of all such balls, for all points in the intersection
06:42:26 <oklofok> (unions are really arbitrary in topology, not just countable)
06:43:16 <Bike> triangle inequality with no metric?
06:43:45 <Bike> i think i need to pick a topological space with no good metric to think about this shit
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06:49:32 <oklofok> Bike: this was about going from having a metric to having a topology
06:49:53 <oklofok> sorry if that wasn't clear
06:50:07 <Bike> oh, no, i see. again i'm half asleep and not a math person
06:50:28 <oklofok> while there surely are topological spaces "without a good metric", note that there are even topologies _without a metric_
06:51:12 <oklofok> that for no metric, the topology comes from that metric
06:51:39 <oklofok> (there's probably a cardinality argument that shows this, but there are relatively natural examples as well)
06:51:54 <Bike> can you still give a metric to the topology, and what's an example?
06:52:31 <oklofok> shachaf: going from an order to a topology is slightly easier, you just take intervals (a, b) as the open basis (where (a, b) is the set of c such that a < c < b)
06:52:53 <oklofok> Bike: you can give a metric to the space, but it will not have much to do with the topology
06:53:09 <oklofok> well i have a paper with a few such spaces :P
06:53:16 <oklofok> but in all seriousness, let's look at wp
06:53:43 <Bike> yeah that's what i was trying to get at with "good metric"
06:54:44 <oklofok> i thought you meant like natural metric
06:54:55 <Bike> welcome to me not knowing what i'm saying
06:54:59 <oklofok> so you want a space that is not metrizable
06:55:27 <oklofok> well a trivial example is one where for some pair x, y, each open set contains either neither or both
06:55:57 <oklofok> if there was a metric giving the topology, then d(x, y) = r > 0, so that the radius r ball around x contains just one.
06:56:15 <oklofok> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/52032/examples-of-non-metrizable-spaces <<< that was 1.
06:57:15 <Bike> maye i should just get counterexamples in topology
06:57:25 <oklofok> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_line_(topology) then there's this guy for 2.
06:57:36 <shachaf> wasn't someone just talking about that book
06:57:47 <Bike> well i've heard of it so probably. was it you
06:57:51 <kmc> i love the long line
06:57:55 <kmc> it's so long
06:58:00 <olsner> it's on the ZOMGMODULES reading list, I think
06:58:04 <kmc> sizeof(long) > sizeof(real)
06:58:09 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris%20Pressey#Esoteric_Reading_List.21
06:58:46 <Bike> i'm going to go to sleep now so you can stop humoring me for a moment
06:58:58 <oklofok> i should probably go to work anyway
06:59:14 <Bike> hm i'm sensing some sarcasm in this link
06:59:48 <oklofok> although i guess teaching the world mathematics is my job
07:00:07 <Bike> i can't believe i'm elitist enough to think that borges would be a better choice to learn about llull
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07:14:08 <shachaf> oklofok: are homotopies where X is R^n interesting
07:14:42 <shachaf> copumpkin: What was wrong with the pro? :-(
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07:40:46 <shachaf> OK, so now the thing about cofree and free topologies makes sense.
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07:49:34 <kmc> No match for "METHOVERFLOW.NET". ?????
07:55:53 <kmc> this is like finding a $20 bill on the ground
07:56:14 <kmc> also is the plumbing site called ToiletOverflow
07:56:24 <kmc> `quote #toilet
07:56:29 <HackEgo> 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets
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08:07:43 <kmc> `run quote Sgeo | shuf
08:07:46 <HackEgo> 158) <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS \ 914) <Sgeo> Actually, just as a guess, J might be worse than APL because it's restricted to normal (ascii?) characters, I guess \ 947) <Sgeo> I was practically raised by Dilbert. \ 303) [on Sgeo's karaoke] <not_nddrylliog> Sgeo: awesome <not_nddrylliog> sounds like a japan anime sound track \ 359) <Sgeo_> Something
08:08:03 <kmc> last one is the best imo
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10:26:25 <fizzie> Baaah. Apparently this work-Ubuntu's lightdm has no "use standard Xsession | ~/.xsession" entry, and no package adds it either. (We've got a silly "no administrative access, but can run 'sudo apt-get X'" kind of thing going on.)
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12:08:21 <metasepia> CYUL 291200Z 31005KT 30SM BKN030 M03/M05 A3048 RMK SC7 FROIN SLP322
12:08:36 <boily> yaaaaay... -3 °C this morning...
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12:13:34 <fizzie> http://outside.aalto.fi/img/temp.month.png <- Winter came and went, there.
12:18:05 <metasepia> ESSA 291150Z 22017G29KT 9999 VCSH FEW012 SCT022 BKN035CB 11/08 Q0990 REDZ NOSIG
12:18:53 <FireFly> Oh, I guess it might be 11°C
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12:19:55 <boily> today's the 29th, report taken at 11:50am UTC, winds from 220° at 17 knots (gusts at 29 knots), nothing to say about ground visibility, rain showers in the vicinity, a few clouds at 1200', scattered clouds at 2200', broken clouds at 3500' (oh, and cumulonimbi too).
12:20:25 <boily> it's 11 °C outside, dew point at 8 °C, sea level pressure at 990 hPa.
12:20:40 <boily> fungot: what is a REDZ?
12:20:41 <fungot> boily: msvcrt.dll? i don't have stdcons.bfm written at all. i might see a few hundred individuals through a few thousand roms usually takes care of grabbing the opcode from fnord!
12:20:49 <boily> oh yuck. atmospheric DLLs.
12:21:47 <boily> REDZ: recent drizzle.
12:24:46 <boily> NO SIGnificative observations.
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14:20:38 <fizzie> "Out of memory on device. To view more detail about available memory on the GPU, use 'gpuDevice()'." Aw. :(
14:21:17 <fizzie> Thought I'd run a small thing in parallel on this local workstation.
14:21:40 <fizzie> (It's got a standard Quadro 2000 and not any sort of computation card, though.)
14:21:48 <oklofok> "<shachaf> oklofok: are homotopies where X is R^n interesting" sorry what's X, codomain or domain or what, i stupidly used it as the codomain and now i'm confused
14:23:46 <oklofok> but supposing it's the domain, you might wanna use S^n (the boundary of the n+1 dimensional ball) instead
14:24:41 <oklofok> then just like the usual homotopy group is given by loops and their composition, you get higher homotopy groups where you have balls which are composed by an operation that i find sort of hard to visualize.
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14:26:54 <oklofok> so you have a space Y with a basepoint y \in Y, which is the space whose structure we're trying to understand by computing its homotopy group; now we consider the maps from S^n to Y which map x \in S^n to y (where x is some nice basepoint of S^n, say (1,0,...,0)).
14:28:37 <oklofok> and you consider them up to homotopy equivalence, so that two maps f, g : S^n \to Y that respect basepoints are considered the same if there's a homotopy h : S^n \times [0, 1] \to Y between them which respects the basepoints too
14:28:55 <oklofok> (time is always [0, 1] in homotopy)
14:29:55 <oklofok> the group gives information about the holes of the space since if a ball contains a hole, it will stay there no matter how much you homotop..ize the ball.
14:30:42 <oklofok> so a space will have a trivial nth homotopy group iff it has "no n-dimensional holes"
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14:32:25 <oklofok> the group operation is the obvious one, but it's a bit complicated.
14:33:32 <boily> is it obvious, or complicated?
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14:35:04 <oklofok> it's the obvious one in the sense that if you think about it long enough to come up with a formula, it'll be that one
14:35:50 <oklofok> it's a bit complicated in the sense that you probably get bored before coming up with the formula
14:36:10 <oklofok> actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homotopy_group has something that might be understandable
14:38:30 <oklofok> k it's not that complicated i guess
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14:39:19 <boily> it's not complicated. otoh, IANAM, therefore I can't really apply what's written there to the real world.
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14:47:26 <oklofok> well the homotopy group is pretty hard to compute usually (i hear), so it's of limited use even if you are a mathematician. but the first homotopy group is needed to prove things like brouwer's fixed point theorem (at least i don't know another way that's not a huge hassle).
14:47:46 <oklofok> in case the m was for mathematician
14:49:10 <oklofok> i use the concept of homotopy groups mainly as something to bask in the beauty of.
14:50:57 <boily> like relaxing in the category of bubble baths.
14:55:42 <oklofok> by the results of http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01691062, if the world is a cellular automaton, then bubbles exist if and only if there was no garden of eden.
14:55:56 <oklofok> so stephen wolfram is probaably an atheist
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14:57:28 <oklofok> i should prolly start doing stand up
14:58:17 * boily finds that mathematicians are a weird bunch...
15:02:23 <Halite[tired]> I'm making an OS in what I think is a bit too high-level of a language, and I wonder if someone can make a smal programming language FOR my OS?
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15:15:48 <boily> `relcome DARKDRAGON7777
15:15:51 <HackEgo> DARKDRAGON7777: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:39:03 <shachaf> oklofok: I meant codomain.
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15:53:20 <Bike> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsEb_hdXEHo #drugz level high (guy smoking some lint he found on his car)
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17:33:17 <Halite[tired]> kmc: Do assembly languages have mathematics built in like ADD 0x3 0x4?
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17:34:38 <Halite[tired]> Err... Do assembly languages have mathematics built in like ADD 0x3 0x4?
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17:36:25 <Slereah> I think the "recent" ones do?
17:36:48 <Slereah> I don't know about 60's assembly or whatever though
17:37:00 <Slereah> I think they might only have operations on bits
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17:39:55 <boily> Halite[tired]: something like: MOV EAX, 0x03 \ ADD EAX, 0x04?
17:41:17 <Halite[tired]> does MOV act like a shifter to shift the addresses?
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17:45:40 <Slereah> http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/650.html
17:45:46 <Slereah> I guess they had addition pretty early
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18:08:58 <Slereah> Do people still make hard-wired codes for big things nowadays?
18:09:09 <Slereah> Like a processor specifically for an application
18:09:25 <Slereah> Or is it cheaper to just use any old processor
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18:11:41 <boily> Slereah: ASICs for mining bitcoins?
18:12:35 <boily> mroman: I like mercury delay lines :D
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18:22:08 <kmc> alan turing once suggested gin as the ideal medium for delay lines
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18:27:18 <kmc> I think computers had addition basically from the beginning
18:28:00 <Slereah> It is a pretty good thing to have
18:28:22 <kmc> because they evolved out of machines for doing arithmetic which didn't necessarily have stored programs or use bit-based representations
18:28:55 <kmc> Halite[tired]: a lot of old machines had decimal storage
18:29:09 <kmc> (might be BCD bits internally, but you manipulate numbers in decimal)
18:29:43 <kmc> the machine language in TAoCP is for a machine where a byte is either 8 bits or 2 decimal digits and your programs are supposed to work in either case
18:30:18 <kmc> <Halite[tired]> does MOV act like a shifter to shift the addresses? <--- I don't understand this question, can you clarify?
18:32:57 <Slereah> Do LISP machines have addition?
18:33:12 <Slereah> I guess they're not minimal lisp though
18:33:35 <Slereah> Also, did anyone ever actually make that Brainfuck processor?
18:44:23 <Halite[tired]> I mean - I have a C# interactive interpreter for a simple idea (not the one with that bloated boolean algebra) but it might be cheating because C# is high-level
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18:47:20 <Slereah> Assembly is just machine code with fancy letters on it
18:47:37 <Slereah> Instead of writing bits, you write the equivalent instruction
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18:48:25 <myname> J is just APL with fancy chars on it
18:48:26 <Slereah> I wonder if anyone ever tried to make a processor for a higher level language
18:48:36 <Slereah> Like a processor for C or something
18:49:25 <myname> i thought of designinf a processor for subleq
18:49:34 <myname> caching would be horrible, though
18:49:49 <Slereah> Someone did a BF one, but they only designed it
18:51:18 <Slereah> They're made using transistors nowadays
18:51:30 <Slereah> Get two signals on one end, another signal out
18:51:37 <Halite[tired]> uhh sorry to be dumb but what is a transistor again?
18:51:41 <Slereah> Well nowadays since the 60's.
18:51:49 <Slereah> Before that it was vacuum tubes
18:51:51 <kmc> there are different techniques for making logic gates from transistors
18:51:58 <kmc> CMOS is the most popular these days: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS
18:52:08 <kmc> that article starts with a diagram of an inverter gate made from two transistors
18:52:30 <Halite[tired]> I wonder if there are primitive DNF-like forms to make logic gates?
18:52:31 <kmc> it also shows a schematic for a NAND gate made of four transistors, and a diagram of the physical layout of same on silicon
18:53:27 <Slereah> I used to be a physics major, so I had to do a lot of transistor physics
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18:54:05 <kmc> regarding chips with "high level" machine language, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages#AS.2F400
18:54:43 <kmc> Halite[tired]: a transistor is basically an electrical switch that is controlled by another electrical input
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18:55:25 <kmc> it has three connections; it allows electricity to flow between the first two if and only if the voltage at the third one is high
18:55:34 <kmc> but that's a simplification and you should read wikipedia or something
18:55:58 <Slereah> Yeah, it's also possible to get a current in and getting a higher current out
18:55:58 <kmc> there are two main types of transistors (bipolar junction and field effect); they work on very different physical principles but do roughly the same thng
18:56:08 <Slereah> Which was also a huge innovation
18:56:10 <kmc> right, in analog applications they are amplifiers
18:56:18 <Slereah> Amplification of current is very important for some things
18:56:27 <Bike> like rockn out
18:57:05 <Slereah> Hell, early movies could have sound, I mean, they had records back then
18:57:13 <Slereah> Synchronizing was hard, but still
18:57:25 <Slereah> The big problem was that without amplification, it was hard to play in a theater
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18:59:27 <Slereah> Is Panini the first esolanger
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19:01:40 <Bike> sanskrit isn't very esoteric.
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19:03:09 <Slereah> He invented the Backus-Naur form, though
19:04:07 <Slereah> You can use it to generate strings in a TC fashion
19:04:16 <Slereah> I think Thue is based on it?
19:04:22 <Taneb> I fell asleep and dreamt I was a Narwhak
19:05:03 <Taneb> Which raises the question
19:05:07 <Bike> i thought BNF only did CFGs.
19:05:21 <Taneb> Am I a human dreaming to be a narwhal, or a narwhal dreaming to be a human?
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19:05:43 <Bike> i had a dream about a rugrats movie where tommy's dad was hired by people in the UAE to make a gigantic, halal-compliant robotic brewery.
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19:08:30 <Slereah> What is the notation for unrestricted grammars called?
19:08:37 <Taneb> Bike, isn't... alcohol sort of banned?
19:11:38 <Bike> Taneb: Yes, he tried to demonstrate it by making some beer (which involved extracting some of his happiest memories fro the flavor - this was the gimmick) but when he did it gave an error message about being used for haraam purposes and that part exploded.
19:13:27 <Bike> the logical conclusion, see.
19:13:54 <olsner> Bike: sounds like a pretty great dream
19:15:46 <Bike> most of the actual content was about an adventure through the Empty Quarter.
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19:17:37 <Bike> you can make gates with complementarily arranged transistors.
19:18:04 <Bike> well there are protbably other ways, that's just the one i know...
19:18:06 <Taneb> Aren't they linear bounded?
19:19:11 <Halite[tired]> a single transistor codes one true state, two floating states
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19:21:08 <Slereah> Nothing physical is TC anyway
19:21:23 <Slereah> But sprinkle some infinity on it and things tend to be TCer
19:21:48 <Slereah> Because you can make logic gates out of them
19:21:56 <Slereah> And logic gates were proved to be TC quite a while ago
19:22:05 <Halite[tired]> and why aren't the building blocks and, or and not?
19:22:27 <Slereah> But you can do everything with NAND, so people tend to use it
19:22:47 <Slereah> Because vacuum tubes are huge things
19:23:49 <Halite[tired]> whats special about buffering (or float if not buffering affected)
19:24:01 <Bike> "why aren't the building blocks and, or, and not" well how do you build a physical and gate.
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19:27:52 <Bike> So wouldn't those be "the basis", and not the gates?
19:28:46 <Bike> how do you make an and out of a pullup anyway
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19:35:33 <Halite[tired]> -made AND logic gate with transistor and pull resistor in Logisim-
19:36:34 <Bike> anyway half the point of computability is that any "basis" is generally equivalent to another "basis".
19:36:51 <Halite[tired]> ah, we can replace transistors with controlled buffers
19:37:52 <Bike> the buffers i know how to make are made of transistors.
19:38:52 <Bike> Photolithography.
19:38:53 <boily> you could splice diodes together?
19:38:57 <Bike> Pretty interesting stuff, really.
19:39:16 <Bike> That's the nice thing about transistors. You can, y'know, build them.
19:39:22 <Bike> They can be really fucking tiny too.
19:39:34 <Slereah> Well the object called "transistor" is always semiconductors, I think
19:39:40 <Slereah> But you can make equivalent devices
19:40:03 <Slereah> I assume you could even make a mechanical version
19:40:45 <Bike> yeah, a mechanical transistor is sort of like a transmission.
19:41:18 <Slereah> There used to be hydraulic computers, but I think they just did analogic computations
19:42:37 <Bike> it's kinda hard to reduce the error enough to do digital computation with an analog computer, yeah.
19:42:55 <Bike> it's possible, but i don't know if it's physically feasible, or inexpensive enough to bother with
19:42:55 <Slereah> I got a friend with a CURTA calculator
19:43:11 <Slereah> It's like a pepper mill to garnish your meals with numbers
19:43:46 <Bike> "It can be used to perform addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and (with more difficulty) square roots and other operations." why, imagine that.
19:43:55 <Bike> wow, it does look like a pepper mill.
19:44:08 <Halite[tired]> Although if there was a device which would return true if x=y=true, false if x=y=false, or float if x=/=y, that would be in a tc set with a NOT gate
19:45:13 <Bike> how would you even make or out of that.
19:46:07 <Halite[tired]> maybe just connect two inputs together? although in Logisim simulation that'd result in E if x!=y
19:47:03 <Bike> you should learn some actual circuitry.
19:47:23 <Halite[tired]> but all I get at school is 'battery and light bulb'.
19:47:29 <Slereah> You could make an ant computer!
19:48:03 <Bike> See: http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749
19:48:04 <Slereah> Just trace their path with honey
19:48:12 <Slereah> I'm not sure how to do a logic gate with ants though
19:48:13 <Halite[tired]> and then show them user input through some LED, no transistors involved
19:48:15 <Bike> A superior basis to computation over electronic transistors.
19:48:25 <Bike> Slereah: why that's what the paper's for
19:48:27 <FireFly> Bike: I don't know what to say
19:48:38 <Bike> FireFly: "cool!"
19:48:49 <Halite[tired]> Slereah: let ants travel through wires and force them to do stuff with a magic hypnosis thing for the gate
19:48:52 <FireFly> Bike: I mean, I've seen the paper before, but I never thought I'd see it actually being relevant
19:49:02 <Bike> that's what i'm here for.
19:49:15 <Bike> watching, waiting for an in. an opportunity to link. it's my sole purpose.
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19:50:04 <Bike> can you stop using weird terminology
19:50:31 <Bike> looks like it's just a couple multiplexers.
19:51:51 <Bike> http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,729,746&Prod=LBE-DD Just read this or something.
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20:26:27 <Taneb> One of my friends is in a play and I can't go and see it and it sounds awesome
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20:30:38 <Halite[tired]> mr. catch caught a catch which caught a catch which caught a catch which caught a catch
20:32:23 <Halite[tired]> superCALIF[lower]ragiLISTicEXP[onent][d]IALiDOC[tor]ious
20:33:02 <shachaf> Are you quite sure you weren't banned in here?
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21:27:26 <kmc> GitHub is down
21:27:39 <kmc> and they don't even have a cutesy error page up
21:28:41 <Bike> me too. what a rip.
21:29:47 <kmc> weird. i am definitely getting a 503
21:30:16 <kmc> oh I only get it when I'm logged in
21:31:24 <olsner> I'm also logged in and it works, so I guess it's something personal?
21:35:12 <boily> kmc: have you done unspeakable horrors onto innocent octopussies recently?
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21:38:19 <kmc> welp it's back
21:38:40 <kmc> those were a terrifying 10 minutes of slacking off at work
21:38:43 <boily> olsner: octopoddies?
21:39:17 <olsner> the plural of octopi is octopodes or something
21:45:45 * boily hands ion the Diæ̈resis of the Day Award
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22:27:07 <oerjan> <shachaf> What's with people magically introducing GADT syntax just to express a type like "data T a = C a => T a"? <-- a believe they have different semantics - when using the non-GADT version, you need to include C a => in the type of the functions that use it. it's even deprecated for that reason. hm possibly even removed in a recent haskell version.
22:27:54 <shachaf> oerjan: You're thinking of "data C a => T a = T a"
22:28:15 <shachaf> Which is deprecated and removed for that reason.
22:28:25 <oerjan> in that case, is your version even correct syntax.
22:29:02 <shachaf> data Box = forall a. Show a => MkBox a -- people don't mind this syntax when it comes with a forall...
22:30:03 <oerjan> well without forall i think it's confusing what it means.
22:30:13 <shachaf> It means the same as the GADT.
22:30:40 <oerjan> ...having a meaning is not the same as the syntax not being confusing, shachaf
22:31:02 <shachaf> I thought you meant the meaning was confusing. You meant the syntax was confusing?
22:31:09 <shachaf> It seems pretty consistent to me.
22:31:20 <shachaf> If you believe in *> syntax, it means roughly the same as data T a = T (C a *> a)
22:31:26 <oerjan> well the thing is the second T a in there is a data constructor.
22:31:40 <shachaf> Yes, that's an old Haskell sin.
22:32:02 <oerjan> um that's how data definitions work.
22:32:25 <shachaf> I mean, using the same name for the data constructor and the type.
22:32:47 <oerjan> you don't have to pun it, but it's still confusing that it's mixing class contexts and data constructors.
22:33:05 <shachaf> And adding the forall makes it not confusing?
22:33:48 <oerjan> i mean, the meaning of data T a = C a => U a is completely different from type T a = C a => U a
22:34:16 <shachaf> Sure. "data" syntax in general is confusing.
22:34:32 <shachaf> "data T a = U a" /= "type T a = U a"
22:34:58 <shachaf> Anyway, how about this, to clear up confusion: "data T a = forall. C a => T a"
22:35:15 <oerjan> i'm actually talking about the fact that C a is treated completely differently in the two.
22:35:41 <oerjan> it is _not_ quantified in the type version.
22:36:22 <oerjan> wait i'm speaking nonsense.
22:37:28 <oerjan> also argh my eyes, damn i'm going to need to buy glasses/lenses.
22:37:48 <FireFly> I hear this Edward guy is in the lens business
22:38:59 <oerjan> and i just know i'm going to lose them everywhere, once i start carrying them around.
22:39:39 <oerjan> well or have them fall out of my jacket and break. how solid are glasses, anyway.
22:40:15 <FireFly> My solution to that problem is to always have them on my nose
22:40:30 <oerjan> but i don't need them when not reading.
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22:47:01 <JWinslow23> How about I develop a language with lights and mirrors?
22:47:19 <oerjan> JWinslow23: have you looked at BackFlip?
22:47:34 <oerjan> it's got mirrors, although not really lights
22:48:19 <JWinslow23> The lights basically turn on pixels for every space they occupy.
22:48:24 * oerjan is slightly sad no one really found out how to program in BackFlip.
22:48:44 <oerjan> the devices invented seem to lack the necessary modularity to be useful.
22:49:28 <oerjan> heh same syntax as backflip but different meaning.
22:50:10 <Bike> imo, use autonomous phototrophic actors.
22:50:10 <oerjan> well except i'm not sure the V is uppercase in backflip.
22:50:34 <JWinslow23> Pixels are turned on when the lights shine.
22:50:57 <oerjan> also, check out the "Undead" puzzle from simon tatham's collection :)
22:51:13 <JWinslow23> So a line pointing up, then right would be:
22:51:30 <oerjan> Bike: do vampires, ghosts and zombies count as such?
22:51:50 <Bike> oerjan: wow very topical, i like it
22:52:18 <oerjan> hm i guess it's also about in season
22:52:23 <JWinslow23> Well, Line 1 would be "/ #", Line (maybe 4?) would be "^".
22:52:51 <Bike> problem is i don't know how to make a "programming language" out of a bunch of pooks crepping around
22:53:12 <oerjan> JWinslow23: in some clients, the way to get a / at start of line is to write / /
22:53:29 <JesseH> Who wants to work on a language with meh
22:54:16 <JesseH> JWinslow23, You made a language before? :P
22:54:45 <JWinslow23> Yes. Pancake Stack, Drive-In Window, Ecstatic, and Tic Tac Toe.
22:55:20 <JWinslow23> Still looking for Hello World in Esctatic.
22:55:51 <JesseH> So what are your ideas
22:56:22 <JWinslow23> My first idea, I already said. Later, I'll make a wiki page for it.
22:56:55 <JesseH> Ill just assume its not good enough
22:57:15 <JWinslow23> Cars racing do things, items on the track do things, etc.
22:59:03 <oerjan> JesseH: i think the Ecstatic Hello World is more tl;dw
22:59:49 <oerjan> and then i'm joking about the w fitting better
22:59:57 <JesseH> I don't want a langauge that takes a long time to do things
23:00:08 <JesseH> Just, does them in a confusing way
23:00:19 <JesseH> OR it doesnt have to be confusing at all
23:00:23 <oerjan> JWinslow23: i'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
23:00:32 <JesseH> but if it isnt esoteric then it doesnt belong here ;_;
23:00:46 <JWinslow23> Cars race on a racetrack, items there do stuff.
23:00:50 <Bike> 'esoteric' doesn't mean 'confusing'.
23:01:06 <JesseH> I'm trying to save a few sentenecs :P
23:01:23 <Bike> If it did we'd just have stopped after http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
23:03:24 <oerjan> krash is a programming language for krazy kats
23:03:36 <JWinslow23> I said it above Bike's 'esoteric' comment.
23:04:29 <JesseH> Doing something graphical would be neat.
23:04:53 <JWinslow23> I'll post documentation on the wiki later.
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23:06:29 <oerjan> we also have some car-related languages, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Maze and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Half-Broken_Car_in_Heavy_Traffic
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23:06:53 <FireFly> Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic seems like a good name for a programming language to me
23:07:08 <FireFly> wasn't there also a Taxi language?
23:07:43 <shachaf> "C a is treated completely differently in the two."
23:07:58 <shachaf> oh, was that bit the nonsense
23:08:11 <oerjan> shachaf: type T a = C a => ... doesn't have a quantified.
23:08:12 <Taneb> FireFly, compare Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
23:08:16 <kmc> imo fuck cars
23:08:23 <kmc> any train languages?
23:08:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:09:13 <FireFly> I'm sad RFNHS3:SDD doesn't redirect to its wiki article
23:09:28 <kmc> i want a language where http://www.bronx-terminal.com/wp-content/uploads/1-CNJp1907_1.jpg is a prime number sieve
23:09:32 <shachaf> kmc: well it's parameterized on a
23:09:48 <oerjan> kmc: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rail and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subway
23:09:50 <kmc> wait that diagram doesn't even have the best part
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23:10:19 <Taneb> FireFly, that's because you should never ever shorten the name of Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
23:10:20 <shachaf> imo the two of you have to merge now
23:10:36 <kmc> i will not go to second level meditation with you
23:10:55 <JWinslow23> BTW, do you think that Krash should include multiple cars?
23:12:18 <shachaf> kmc: did you get an uber kitten delivered today
23:12:40 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
23:12:40 <JWinslow23> So, should Krash have a track that turns?
23:12:41 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
23:12:41 <myndzi> /| c.c /| |\| | /`\ c.c >\ | /< |/| c.c |\
23:14:02 <JWinslow23> Should Krash (my new language) have a track with turns?
23:14:03 <oerjan> darn suddenly putty doesn't show look-of-disapproval correctly.
23:14:58 <FireFly> look of disapproval hasn't always been in ^celebrate, has it?
23:15:03 -!- Faris has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:15:41 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:16:01 <fungot> (\o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/)S
23:16:02 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
23:16:02 <myndzi> /´\ c.c /| /| | | /| c.c |\ | >\|/`\ c.c /<
23:16:34 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:17:12 <oerjan> JWinslow23: there is no ^code command.
23:17:23 <oerjan> you are misreading the ^help
23:17:31 <JWinslow23> How do we define stuff like ^celebrate?
23:18:34 <oerjan> you need to write a program in either brainfuck or underload.
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23:20:21 <oerjan> it does show chinese, at least
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23:23:07 <Taneb> Dear god C is a messed up language
23:23:28 <Taneb> Apparently index[array] is valid
23:26:25 -!- Faris has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> array[index] is semantically equivalent to *(array+index)
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23:29:15 <oerjan> `interp c printf("%c",5["Hello, world!\n"]);
23:29:35 <HackEgo> Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: for
23:30:01 <oerjan> i didn't _really_ expect that to work, mind you.
23:30:10 <Phantom_Hoover> i choose to read that smiley as "man with yorkshire pudding in mouth"
23:30:33 <oerjan> Gregor: i am wondering if HackEgo might be a smidgen out of processes?
23:30:37 <Taneb> !c printf("%c",5["Hello, world!\n"]);
23:30:53 <oerjan> also that you're despicably idle.
23:30:54 <Phantom_Hoover> (i doubt it's a particularly good idea to do index[array] because compiler optimisations but it's formally valid)
23:31:09 <oerjan> Taneb: EgoBot's interpreters haven't worked for a long time.
23:31:52 <oerjan> !bf_joust except this one i think <
23:32:10 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:32:14 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:32:20 <oerjan> !bfjoust except this one i think <
23:32:30 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_except: 0.0
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23:33:01 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for language_lazyk!
23:33:05 <oerjan> Slereah: i think something is wrong in general which affects most of the languages.
23:33:14 <oerjan> also it has never had per-language help.
23:33:26 <Slereah> Why is there a list of them then
23:34:01 <FireFly> Probably because those are the supported (interpreter) commands
23:35:27 <oerjan> Gregor ported all the languages over to HackEgo but not with any serious control of things not breaking.
23:35:45 <oerjan> just copying the relevant directories, i think.
23:36:04 <oerjan> the `interp command sometimes works.
23:38:52 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp: No such file or directory
23:38:58 <HackEgo> bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:39:11 <HackEgo> bin`: POSIX shell script text executable
23:39:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bin`: not found
23:40:52 <HackEgo> dog: UTF-8 Unicode text \ dog
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00:14:08 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.7007v1 wheeeeee
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00:38:17 <oerjan> oh good look-of-disapproval came back
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00:39:12 <oerjan> Bike: i had a temporary font issue in putty
00:39:23 <oerjan> probably because of windows upgrading.
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01:15:26 <HackEgo> 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets
01:15:46 <oerjan> hm the formatted logs merge consecutive spaces
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01:29:45 <oerjan> <oklofok> well the homotopy group is pretty hard to compute usually (i hear), so it's of limited use even if you are a mathematician. but the first homotopy group is needed to prove things like brouwer's fixed point theorem (at least i don't know another way that's not a huge hassle). <-- you just need homology groups, which are easier.
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01:32:14 <oerjan> @tell oklofok <oklofok> well the homotopy group is pretty hard to compute usually (i hear), so it's of limited use even if you are a mathematician. but the first homotopy group is needed to prove things like brouwer's fixed point theorem (at least i don't know another way that's not a huge hassle). <-- you just need homology groups, which are easier.
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04:17:27 <oklofok> oerjan: i know, but those are not as nice
04:18:02 <oerjan> well, they're supposedly easier to calculate than homotopy groups.
04:18:26 <oklofok> can brouwer's be proved with those?
04:18:27 <oerjan> admittedly it still takes a while to get to that point.
04:18:48 <oklofok> my favorite algebraic topology book starts with it, and uses homotopy
04:19:13 <oerjan> oklofok: only for the disk, no? the homology proof applies to arbitrary dimension.
04:19:48 <oerjan> assuming by first homotopy group you mean the fundamental group.
04:20:51 <oerjan> the first proof of brouwer's fixpoint theorem listed on wikipedia is essentially the same as what i remember, and the step where you prove that you cannot have a retract from ball to sphere can then be done with homology.
04:21:10 <oklofok> brouwer and the fact S^1 is not a retract of D^2 are on page 6
04:21:23 <oklofok> can homology be done in 6 pages
04:21:48 <oerjan> but in 2d the fundamental group also works. which is not so strange since the fundamental groups and first homology groups are the same for the relevant spaces.
04:22:07 <oerjan> (in general, the first homology group is the abelianization of the fundamental group)
04:22:54 <oerjan> oklofok: no. the fundamental group version _is_ simpler for 2d. it's just not simpler any more when you increase the dimension.
04:23:56 <oklofok> have you studied this stuff much?
04:24:38 <oerjan> i read a book on algebraic topology because one of my old personal mathematical goals was to understand a proof of the jordan-brouwer theorem.
04:25:23 <oerjan> yes. also that level allows you to do the fixpoint theorem and invariance of domain approximately as easy.
04:25:40 <oerjan> in fact the fixpoint theorem is easier, iirc.
04:26:27 <oklofok> i don't have any goals i guess :(
04:27:44 <oerjan> also we managed to get some homology into one of our published articles on topological measures.
04:27:47 <Bike> i for one intend to give a positive answer to the entscheidungsproblem
04:28:01 <oerjan> Bike: a lofty goal, for sure
04:28:19 <oerjan> might require finding a way to redesign reality first.
04:28:27 <oklofok> was that why you had the five lemma
04:28:41 <oerjan> oklofok: no that was a different article.
04:28:55 <oerjan> that one was about dynamical systems
04:29:04 <oklofok> we put a pretty silly homotopy result in an article
04:29:08 <oerjan> it just calculated some K-theoretic invariants.
04:29:19 <oerjan> which is related to but not the same as homology
04:29:55 <oklofok> (we proved that the sofic shifts are exactly the simplicial complexes up to homotopy equivalence, if you use a certain topology for the shifts)
04:30:38 <oerjan> i got a book on sofic shifts and stuff but i never actually read it properly.
04:31:11 <oklofok> there was a guy from the us at our uni a few weeks ago, he does k-theory and was hoping someone could help him with it
04:31:41 <Bike> http://c431376.r76.cf2.rackcdn.com/52139/fncom-07-00098-HTML/image_m/fncom-07-00098-g003.jpg i am t, destroyer of world
04:31:46 <oerjan> the book was by douglas lind, i think
04:32:26 <oklofok> so symbolic dynamics and coding i guess
04:33:14 <oerjan> looking at the amazon page and that's how i recall the book looking
04:33:37 <oerjan> lind was the guy in seattle my advisor was mainly visiting when i was there
04:33:41 <oklofok> if you know topology and automata theory, things can be done a lot easier
04:34:04 <oklofok> (it's not bad tho, it's my favorite book and we basically cite it in every article)
04:36:14 <oklofok> we have this result that primitive Pisot substitutions generate subshifts which have only finitely many endomorphisms up to a power of the shift (previously known only for uniform substitutions and sturmian ones afaik)
04:36:39 <oklofok> we sent this to ergodic theory and dynamical systems and the referee told us fuck you read some literature and cite my articles
04:37:01 <oklofok> so we've done some reading, and skau had some related article
04:37:18 <oklofok> anyway i bump into him a lot these days
04:37:30 <oerjan> that doesn't _quite_ sound like the skau i knew. but i guess he might get angry about such stuff.
04:37:42 <oklofok> http://arxiv.org/pdf/0807.3621.pdf
04:38:11 <oklofok> maybe not quite related results, but something i feel like i should read
04:38:12 * oerjan swats oklofok for linking directly to the pdf -----###
04:38:49 <oklofok> i wrote "skau substitutions bratteli" in the search field
04:38:59 <oklofok> http://arxiv.org/abs/0807.3621
04:39:40 <oerjan> yeah that's pretty close to my phd work
04:40:01 <oerjan> and i'm sure i must have got that article at some point
04:40:14 <oklofok> do you know mike boyle by any chance
04:41:19 <HackEgo> olist 927: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
04:41:20 <oklofok> they may have published that in a journal 10 years ago?
04:41:45 <oklofok> http://citeseer.uark.edu:8080/citeseerx/showciting;jsessionid=30F12E707AA136586DCDA2540FD75CB4?cid=556314
04:41:47 <oerjan> gah why won't pdfs open in my browser any more
04:41:56 <oklofok> i had that problem at some point
04:41:58 <oerjan> oklofok: mike boyle is a name i've heard
04:42:02 <oklofok> i err.... don't remember what i did
04:42:13 <oerjan> i just don't remember in what context
04:42:20 <oklofok> boyle visited our university a couple weeks ago
04:43:13 <oklofok> the first thing he said to us was "always nice to meet people who can solve problems i can't"
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04:44:10 * oerjan recalls a number of names on that citation list
04:45:14 <oerjan> søren eilers and alan forrest in particular
04:45:47 <oklofok> Ki Hang Kim, Fred Roush <<< these guys are sort of legends
04:45:52 * oerjan recalls alan forrest arranging whisky tasting for us when he was visiting trondheim
04:46:14 <oklofok> Luca, Q. Zamboni <<< this guy is a visiting professor at our university
04:46:30 <Bike> mathematician and ice rink maintenance inventor
04:46:30 <oklofok> kim and roush do (well, did) symbolic dynamics
04:47:06 <oerjan> i have this vague bell on luca, not sure if i'm confusing him with someone else.
04:47:31 <oklofok> luca is easy to confuse (we have another luca at the university for example)
04:48:02 <oerjan> <oklofok> they may have published that in a journal 10 years ago? <-- or at least circulating preprints
04:48:29 <oerjan> i certainly remember durand, he was my thesis opponent
04:50:10 <oklofok> do you know alessandro maass
04:53:59 <oklofok> i'm going to chile in a few weeks to try to get him to be my postdoc supervisor next year
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05:20:20 <Sgeo> I almost thought "The Newsroom" was "Onion News Empire"
05:20:25 <Sgeo> I've watched an episode of the latter
05:20:32 <Bike> they're basically equivalent.
05:27:42 <Sgeo> http://www.avclub.com/articles/amazon-orders-alpha-house-betas-tumbleaf-other-sho,98322/
05:27:55 <Sgeo> Does this mean ONE won't be a thing?
05:28:18 <Bike> i heard one was kind of bad anyway
05:31:54 <kmc> yeah I'm sad that ONE wasn't picked up
05:32:22 <kmc> i watched the ONE pilot and thought it was pretty good
05:33:22 <kmc> and I watched the Betas pilot and though it was pretty bad & borderline offensive, but might go somewhere entertaining
05:33:43 <kmc> also The Newsroom is really bad & not at all borderline offensive, and deserves to be mocked mercilessly
05:33:54 <kmc> although I read that ONE was conceived independently and just looks like a parody by coincidence
05:34:06 * kmc meant "not-at-all-borderline offensive", above
05:38:49 <Sgeo> ONE was the only pilot I watched :/
05:39:01 <Sgeo> I'd like to at least be able to rewatch the pilot, can't even do that
05:39:10 <Sgeo> (At least, not legally, haven't checked non-legally)
05:39:19 <kmc> i... bet you can do it non-legally
05:39:42 <kmc> god, The Newsroom is so awful
05:39:48 <kmc> and I feel so dirty for watching all of it
05:40:06 <kmc> at least I can take comfort in the fact that I stole it all
05:40:49 <Sgeo> I was close to buying a season of The Newsroom because I thought it was ONE
05:40:57 <kmc> you dodged a bullet there
05:41:05 <Bike> it's cool how everyone i know who watched the newsroom hated it and they also watched all of it because of reasons beyond me
05:41:32 <shachaf> i don't watch much television
05:41:35 <shachaf> in fact, i don't even own one
05:41:43 <shachaf> not sure what to do with it
05:41:57 <Bike> sell it for scrap
05:42:00 <Sgeo> I don't watch much TV on the TV
05:42:24 <Sgeo> (Actually, that's a total lie, I do sometimes, just thought it's fun how most of my TV viewing isn't on a TV)
05:42:32 <kmc> Bike: I'm going to make a serious effort not to start watching Season 3
05:42:34 <shachaf> i went to a talk about how the chromecast works, some of it is p. neat
05:42:54 <kmc> it's not just a shitty show, it's full of socially regressive crap
05:43:25 <Bike> yeah i heard about the uganda trip
05:43:25 <shachaf> what if it was the latter but not the former
05:43:32 <kmc> that would be worse I guess
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05:55:39 <oklofok> what sort of socially regressive crap?
05:57:27 <kmc> the white lady who goes to africa and meets a bunch of one-dimensional african characters whose lives and deaths (because africa is a homogenous place of violence) serve only to give her an Emotionally Significant Experience
05:58:56 <kmc> and then when she comes back she changes her appearance and starts having more sex, and there's no way this is a legitimate choice or part of her emotional experience, it's just a cry for help so that the Sensitive Guy will come and fix her
05:59:26 <kmc> this really goes much deeper than the usual "Sorkin can't write for women" or "Sorkin's female characters are bizarrely incompetent" though there's plenty of that too
06:01:25 <kmc> http://www.wrongingrights.com/2013/08/time-for-a-bechdel-test-for-african-characters-some-thoughts-on-the-newsrooms-very-special-africa-episode.html on the former
06:01:36 <kmc> btw an awesome blog
06:04:13 <kmc> Bike: the sole reason for still watching is that the dialogue is entertainingly snappy
06:04:44 <Bike> again, just what the others say
06:05:00 <kmc> but you said "reasons beyond me", I think it's pretty simple really
06:05:09 <kmc> the full shittiness of the plotline I described was only evident in the final episode
06:05:14 <Bike> makes sense i guess.
06:05:44 <kmc> the problem is that Sorkin is too much of an egomaniac to work with a writing team who can handle things like plot and characters and not being sexist
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07:27:15 <fizzie> Heh, someone from the department has made a singing voice synthesis listening test, and put a youtube link to a one-hour "best vocaloid songs" mix as a "if you don't know what singing voice synthesis is" postscript in the email.
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07:55:02 <fizzie> Aw, the listening test itself was just simple sung notes and note sequences and not some strange jpop songs.
07:57:18 <Bike> put some manbo dead behind the house p in there next time
08:00:21 <fizzie> That sounds kind of alternative.
08:00:50 <fizzie> "The YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement."
08:02:07 <Bike> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKIOZnPjtg
08:02:33 <fizzie> Yes, Google put me to http://vocaloidlist.com/songs.php?artist=Manbo-Dead-Behind-The-House-P already.
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08:10:36 <fizzie> "Simulation of an Analog Circuit of a Wah Pedal: A Port-Hamiltonian Approach"
08:10:52 <fizzie> (Possibly also: good title for a song?)
08:11:30 <Jafet> The Port-Hamiltonians
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10:12:02 <fizzie> "Megabats constitute the suborder Megachiroptera, family Pteropodidae of the order Chiroptera (bats). They are also called fruit bats, --" megabats!
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12:15:16 * boily is sad “but, but... I wanted to good morning them...”
12:15:34 <boily> good unmorninged morning...
12:24:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unwelcome: not found
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12:46:19 <boily> `relcome dddtest_b6632
12:46:22 <HackEgo> dddtest_b6632: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:03:22 <boily> dddtest_66d7c: hi? who are you? what do you think of eggplants?
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13:40:44 <FireFly> What size limits are there to redcode programs? obviously they'd have to be at most (core size)/2
13:41:13 <john_metcalf> It depends which simulator / hill you're playing for.
13:41:59 <john_metcalf> I think pMARS has a hardwired 500 instruction limit. Most of the hills have lower limits. E.g. For CORESIZE 8000 the limit is normally 100 instructions.
13:43:56 <john_metcalf> Most successful programs tend to be between 5 and 15 instructions. Any remaining instructions are often used to create a decoy, of for a quick unrolled scan or bombing loop.
13:47:28 <FireFly> I'm just pondering what a core wars-like befunge-based game could look like
13:49:22 <john_metcalf> I'm not sure about befunge, but there are a couple of 2D programming games. One is similar to Core War http://corewar.co.uk/corelife
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14:01:34 <metasepia> CYUL 301300Z 24014KT 15SM FEW020 BKN070 OVC100 02/M02 A3026 RMK SC1AC7AC1 SC TR SLP250
14:01:55 <boily> strange. it's about the same temperature down around dddtest_3b44b's area as here.
14:02:04 <metasepia> KMCO 301353Z 01007KT 10SM FEW042 SCT085 SCT250 25/19 A3025 RMK AO2 SLP240 T02500194
14:02:12 <boily> uhm. well. typo on my part.
14:02:25 <boily> ~eval (25 * 9/5) + 32
14:02:29 <boily> ~eval (25 * 9/5) + 32
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14:41:25 <Taneb> I've got bread in the oven
14:43:19 <Taneb> I'm glad I remembered about that
14:43:26 <Taneb> I ran and it's done to perfection
14:43:40 <boily> how will you call the baby?
14:43:56 <FireFly> Phantom_Hoover: apparently they've been for the past nine months
14:44:59 <boily> FireFly: I think Taneb is male. probably. perhaps. maybe. hth.
14:45:23 <FireFly> This development is most surprising
14:45:28 <boily> Taneb: how many genders do you possess?
14:45:29 <Taneb> boily, I'm going to name her "boily" after you
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14:45:52 <boily> I'm flattered. and perturbed.
14:51:33 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards. (see also: d-modules)
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14:52:21 <boily> `learn Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
14:52:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
14:53:13 <FireFly> I didn't know HackEgo has `learn
14:53:25 <FireFly> I thought the de-facto standard way of editing factoids was via sed and cat
14:54:28 <boily> ̀learn obliterates the current wisdom, while sedding and catting and echoing do stuff.
14:55:21 <FireFly> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/2b44fd8613ec/wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d I think something might've gone wrong
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14:59:12 <boily> FireFly: that is perfectly normal, natural, andddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
15:00:59 <FireFly> `run mkdir wisdom/e; ln -s wisdom/e/e wisdom/e; echo f >wisdom/e/f
15:01:03 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `wisdom/e': File exists
15:01:39 <FireFly> oh I had the argument order to ln wrong anyway
15:03:38 <boily> “ln” is the USB of the software world. you'll get the arguments in the right order after the second swap.
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15:10:49 <FireFly> But then again arguably the argument order is sane since it mirrors that of `cp`
15:16:11 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
15:21:50 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ⊥ \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛
15:22:34 <nooodl> what the heck happened there
15:22:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/ls
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15:24:10 <JWinslow23> Should my Krash language have multiple cars and/or a track with turns?
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15:24:48 <Phantom_Hoover> why does your pancake language not have multiflipping as an operation
15:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancake_sorting read this, there will be a test in week 1 of term 3
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15:25:33 <boily> I ain't in school anymore! MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH AH!
15:25:42 <boily> (but I still have nightmares about it)
15:26:27 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
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15:32:03 <boily> `relcome dialektika
15:32:06 <HackEgo> dialektika: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:32:53 <boily> woah. my first witness to a live k-line!
15:36:13 <nooodl> probably spam somewhere else
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16:39:44 <HackEgo> Ixxie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:39:48 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:40:19 <HackEgo> cat: bin/ls: No such file or directory
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16:41:17 <Ixxie> I thought this was a channel to discuss Esoteric mysticism lol
16:41:36 <Ixxie> that Ewige Blumenkraft deceived me xD
16:42:07 <oerjan> the topics here tend to be deceptive more often than not
16:43:08 <Ixxie> well deception is awesome
16:43:24 <Ixxie> I am very novice in programming, most certainly clueless on esoteric programming
16:44:09 <HackEgo> patching file ls \ patching file ls
16:44:23 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ⊥ \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛
16:44:32 <oerjan> ok that didn't actually help
16:44:37 <HackEgo> cat: bin/ls: No such file or directory
16:44:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^969195 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
16:45:12 <oerjan> `run mv bin/ls\ bin/ls
16:45:22 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^969195 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
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16:45:28 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
16:46:06 <oerjan> it seems zzo38 broke that for some reason. perhaps even a good one.
16:47:06 <FireFly> wouldn't ls simply be outside of HackEgo's home dir?
16:48:01 <oerjan> FireFly: the default one, yes.
16:48:09 <FireFly> Yeah, I just noticed the purpose of bin/ls
16:48:27 <FireFly> I helps to actually read all the HackEgo output before writing stuff
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16:50:03 <oerjan> otoh it's not very useful after the nicks got shuffled off the end by the weird symbols.
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16:52:03 <FireFly> And then again it's not as annoying as `list is
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16:55:34 <boily> oerjan: maybe “`ls wisdom” should point to the PDF?
16:56:09 <boily> @tell zzo38 why did you break the list that should be broken? (if you had a good reason, please disreregard this message.)
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16:56:27 <boily> @tell zzo38 shouldn't. not should. as it should.
16:56:57 <oerjan> actually i thought the first fit. the ls _should_ be broken for wisdom.
16:57:45 <boily> @tell zzo38 well, it all depends on your point of oerjan.
16:57:55 <boily> @tell zzo38 (sorry for spamming.)
16:58:08 <boily> oerjan: there, that should make it.
16:58:36 <oerjan> boily: i shall amuse myself by letting you change bin/ls to point to the pdf.
17:00:25 <oerjan> aka "sed, the comedic farce tool"
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17:00:51 <boily> I ain't be using the sed-mower on ls. too dangerous.
17:01:32 <boily> I'll trying echoing it.
17:02:09 <oerjan> aka "shell escaping, the comedic farce tool"
17:03:26 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:`pastewisdom:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf:' bin/ls # ought to work
17:03:28 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 22: unknown option to `s'
17:03:52 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's#`pastewisdom#https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf#' bin/ls # ought to work
17:04:02 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
17:04:31 <boily> just as I was typing the Glorious Command, I was outfireflied.
17:04:56 * boily smacks FireFly with leaning toothpicks
17:04:56 <fizzie> boily: Just be comforted by the fact that you'd probably have screwed it up somehow.
17:05:09 <boily> that's besides the point.
17:05:37 * FireFly ponders whether to `revert
17:05:41 <nooodl> `run cat wisdom/bonvenon
17:05:42 <HackEgo> bonvenon Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-o: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
17:06:23 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/bonvenon //' wisdom/bonvenon
17:06:36 <oerjan> someone doesn't understand `learn.
17:06:40 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/Viki-o/Viki-on/' wisdom/bonvenon
17:06:52 <nooodl> or the accusative, for that matter
17:07:08 <oerjan> i suspect google did that?
17:07:10 <nooodl> the culprit is... me...
17:07:26 <Koen_> should it be "vizitu la Viki-on"?
17:07:28 <nooodl> that was my first day in #esoteric too. or second. something like that
17:07:56 <oerjan> Koen_: um like, he changed it right there.
17:08:01 <Taneb> Do I risk getting changed into my Jake English cosplay now, or in an hour and three quarters?
17:08:02 <nooodl> Koen_: yeah. "la Viki-on" is a direct object
17:08:24 <Koen_> oerjan: sorry my brain filters all lines that contain too much slashes
17:09:14 <boily> say, supposing that we may hypothetically have a quenya (and/or sindarin) welcome some day in the foreseeable future, what kind of encoding should we use?
17:10:03 <oerjan> i note that typing "jake english" into google automatically adds "cosplay" as a suggestion
17:10:10 <fizzie> boily: The ConScript one?
17:10:17 <nooodl> http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm
17:11:03 <fizzie> You can't use the Everson proposal directly because it has "xx"s in the codepoints.
17:11:12 <fizzie> (Is the ConScript just that directly mapped, though? It might be.)
17:12:35 <fizzie> http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/tengwar.html sure looks pretty similar.
17:13:27 <boily> yes, but the dkuug version suggests U+1CC00..U+1CC7F, which makes more sense.
17:14:12 <fizzie> boily: You can't just randomly select currently unused code points.
17:14:33 <boily> beuh. if only it were that simple.
17:14:56 <oerjan> you realize 99.9% of everyone won't see it properly anyway.
17:15:02 <fizzie> boily: At least the ConScript registry lives inside the private use area and so won't be trampled by actual Unicode, and there's several fonts with Tengwar characters in the code points proposed there.
17:15:16 <fizzie> oerjan: That sounds like an underestimate.
17:15:46 <fizzie> "The following Unicode sample (which repeats the one above) is meaningful when viewed under a typeface supporting tengwar glyphs in the area defined in the ConScript tengwar proposal. Some typefaces that support this proposal are Everson Mono, Tengwar Telcontar, Constructium, Tengwar Formal Unicode, and FreeMonoTengwar --" <-- see, several.
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17:19:08 <fizzie> boily: Alternatively, you could encode it in three different ways (Everson's original suggestion, the CSUR private-use block, and the de-facto on-top-of-ISO-8859-1 encoding), and provide three welcomes.
17:21:57 <boily> that sounds painful. exactly what is needed to assenate on newcomers.
17:24:17 <boily> with webclients and suchlike, Everson's proposition should be typeset first, imho.
17:24:36 <john_metcalf> Random question: is anyone here at The University of Western Ontario?
17:24:57 <boily> (if you're using weechat, check this out → http://cormier.github.io/glowing-bear/)
17:25:18 <boily> john_metcalf: coppro is probably close.
17:25:40 <coppro> john_metcalf: I'm at Waterloo
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17:27:14 <coppro> oerjan appears to have met his Waterloo
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17:30:19 <FireFly> Why *don't* we have tengwar and klingon `welcome variants, by the way?
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18:01:08 <fizzie> Since the previous one was so popular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCXR1sHfccY
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18:05:18 <boily> fizzie: oh, another one!
18:05:29 <boily> (and a subtle “A!”)
18:06:49 <fizzie> boily: I think I'll make a winter one in, well, the winter.
18:07:20 <fizzie> Also the A! gets lit up near the end.
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18:19:06 <john_metcalf> coppro: Just I was trying to contact someone at UWO, but his email address is bouncing.
18:20:01 <john_metcalf> I've got a new email address to try now though...
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19:00:43 <Bike> heh, i like this problem. pick a point on a side of the unit square, and then another point on a different side. what's the expected value of the distance between the two points?
19:01:02 <ais523> Bike: depends on the randomization algorithm you use
19:01:57 <Bike> uniform distributions.
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19:14:02 <boily> uniform distribution → http://www.canadianlinen.com/~/media/Images/Home%20Banner/pyyco-ca.ashx
19:15:02 <Bike> oh i get it. it's a pun. since that company distributes uniforms.
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19:34:21 <tswett_> So I'm trying to come up with an esolang consisting entirely of syntactic sugar for a Turing machine.
19:34:54 <Bike> that was published in sigbovik once.
19:35:14 <Bike> yeah. it was called "cell" or suchlike. looked like Java.
19:37:12 <tswett_> I figured I'd feel my way through this esolang by writing a description of a Turing machine which lazily evaluates SKI calculus.
19:37:20 <tswett_> But I can't think of a great way for a Turing machine to do that.
19:37:23 <tswett_> Turing machines kinda suck.
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19:39:28 <tswett_> All right, let's see. Data types will be defined using unions and cartesian products. Each data type will have to be finite, so recursion will be prohibited.
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19:40:07 <Bike> aha, found it.
19:40:51 <tswett_> A function can take values of data types and return values of data types. Functions can call each other, but not recursively.
19:41:52 <Bike> Brother Jonathan Aldrich. (2010). "Holy States Can Save the World!" _Proceedings of the SIGBOVIK Conference, 2010_. pages 67-69.
19:41:56 <Bike> I don't think it has a DOI :(
19:43:33 <Bike> hm, i think the proceedings might actually be titled "The 9th Biarennial Workshop about Symposium on Robot Dance Party of Conference in Celebration of Harry Q. Bovik's 0x40 Birthday".
19:44:13 <tswett_> I kind of wish macron notation for hexadecimal were common.
19:44:25 <tswett_> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0̄, 1̄, 2̄, 3̄, 4̄, 5̄.
19:44:52 <tswett_> Or, alternatively (and incompatibly), 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 0̄, 1̄, 2̄, 3̄, 4̄, 5̄, 6̄, 7̄.
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19:47:21 <tswett_> Happy 0x73̄3̄0̄14̄, everyone!
19:48:58 <Fiora> gosh, it took me like 10 seconds to notice the little lines in this font
19:49:01 <FireFly> Do those use combining macrons, or are they separate dedicated codepoints for digits with macron above?
19:49:17 <tswett_> Those use combining macrons.
19:50:19 <boily> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 0̸, 1̸, 2̸, 3̸, 4̸, 5̸, 6̸, 7̸...
19:50:44 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/4UnBlTo.png it looks like this here
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19:50:52 <tswett_> Maybe we should be more concise and call this day 0x1̄372̄3. The number of days since January 1, 1 (counting both endpoints) in the extrapolated Gregorian calendar.
19:55:15 <Bike> i like the seven
19:55:17 <Fiora> is um is that how it's supposed to look
19:55:50 <fizzie> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0ᷝ, 1ᷝ, 2ᷝ, 3ᷝ, 4ᷝ, 5ᷝ
19:56:03 <fizzie> (From the oft-repeated l <=> 1 font confusion.)
19:56:06 <Bike> those sure are some defaultian boxes.
19:57:00 <HackEgo> [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+1DDD COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER L]
19:58:02 <Bike> wh... why does that exist?
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19:59:38 <fizzie> There's a random sampling of combining latin letters, probably each for some specialized use.
19:59:41 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/RLCG
20:00:09 <fizzie> But of course not the *full* set, that would be ridiculous.
20:01:11 <Bike> lol they're not even contiguous, huh
20:01:27 <boily> you presumptuous indecent heretic! don't you realise that your Soul is Bound by False Assumptions, such as the Alphabetical Order of the Devil?
20:01:38 <Bike> yes, i've often thought to myself, "i need a combining æ"
20:04:01 <FireFly> http://i.imgur.com/K13iNB3.png is what they look like for me
20:05:07 <Bike> boily's look almost like katakana :-)
20:11:45 <Slereah_> http://asset-0.soup.io/asset/5997/1518_0c8a.jpeg
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20:13:40 <HackEgo> [U+3081 HIRAGANA LETTER ME] [U+30A4 KATAKANA LETTER I] [U+30B9 KATAKANA LETTER SU] [U+308F HIRAGANA LETTER WA] [U+3059 HIRAGANA LETTER SU] [U+3061 HIRAGANA LETTER TI] [U+308B HIRAGANA LETTER RU] [U+30CC KATAKANA LETTER NU]
20:14:03 <tswett_> Sure. I assume that's the same thing as "chi".
20:14:23 <tswett_> So, it says "me isu wasuchiru nu" or something.
20:14:39 <tswett_> I kind of like the idea of using "ti" instead of "chi".
20:14:40 <boily> I... tried to match the slashed digits to the best of my ability.
20:15:12 <boily> ヌ works pretty well, but everything else is... you'd have to be on the same stuff as I am, mon...
20:15:25 <boily> (namely, oolong tea, third cup of the day.)
20:15:52 <tswett_> Oh dang, they do look like that.
20:17:38 <boily> mug. ~10 oz porcelain container. tasse à café.
20:17:40 <Bike> laced with mdma.
20:17:46 <FireFly> note to self: cut down on your tea consumption
20:18:12 <boily> is that Spanish???
20:18:32 * boily *SMACKS* tswett_ with his mug'o'tea
20:18:42 <boily> quintopia: woot! will there be cookies?
20:19:10 <tswett_> Wow. Google Translate translates "メプレグントシアルギエンプエデエンテンデルエスト" as "Pregnant memory client sialic Guillen Puede yen Ten del Est".
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20:19:40 <boily> FireFly: I shall not. tea makes me calm and serene, without any trace of violence.
20:19:54 <quintopia> boily: no. but there might be biscuits.
20:20:17 -!- boily has set topic: Pregnant memory client sialic Guillen Puede yen Ten del Est | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
20:20:43 <FireFly> Hm, I should try oolong. I've grown a bit tired of earl grey anyway
20:20:55 <tswett_> So that's "mepureguntoshiarugienpuedeentenderuesuto", apparently. So "puregunto" must have become "pregnant", and "shiaru gien puede en ten deru esuto" became "sialic Guillen Puede yen Ten del Est".
20:21:00 <tswett_> And "me" must have become "memory".
20:24:30 <tswett_> ”Zemepozubokudekesuchion”, eh?
20:24:43 <HackEgo> [U+201D RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK]
20:25:07 <tswett_> Dang, I didn't know my quotation marks were so fancy.
20:25:52 <tswett_> Whelp, I'm gonna head out. See you guys.
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20:27:28 <boily> more languages need the [ʒ]. that sound is sublime.
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20:45:02 <nooodl> are there combining diactritics for (han)dakuten
20:45:44 <boily> no, only fancy double quotes as seen in books.
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20:46:46 <boily> the opening and closing ones, as opposed to the «"».
20:47:06 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_quote#Typing_quotation_marks_on_a_computer_keyboard
20:49:56 <nooodl> ｶﾞｷﾞｸﾞｹﾞｺﾞ ← ｺﾚﾓﾂｶﾜﾚﾙ. (wow they're actually treated as single entities?! i guess they actually are "combining")
20:50:13 <nooodl> oh you can still copy just a ﾞ. weird
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21:01:18 <fizzie> You can see UAX #29 for the typically Unicodean definition of "grapheme clusters" (aka "user-perceived characters"), which are the things that "commonly behave as units in terms of mouse selection, arrow key movement, backspacing, and so on".
21:02:10 <fizzie> (It only includes 13 rules.)
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21:02:22 <Bike> that's uh, different from "glyphs" and "characters", is it
21:02:42 <olsner> of course it's different
21:03:00 <kmc> does Unicode have a definition of "character"?
21:03:36 <fizzie> kmc: Something like four of them.
21:03:49 <kmc> is text shaping even within scope for Unicode? that is, does it specify precisely how a sequence of e.g. Devanagari characters should appear on the screen?
21:04:16 <kmc> or does it just provide the lower-level character attributes for text shaping libraries and font formats to define these things?
21:06:22 <fizzie> I don't know, but if it does say something about that, it's going to say it in one of the annexes, which do not always require particular things for conformance, but rather provide guidance.
21:06:28 <kmc> ICU seems to have some shaping code
21:06:40 <kmc> but I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarfBuzz is what everyone uses for shaping, in the open-source world
21:07:42 <fizzie> Like the grapheme boundary annex, which specifies a "default" and mentions that more sophisticated implementations "can and should" be more sophisticated.
21:08:06 <fizzie> Anyway, a grapheme cluster is certainly different from a glyph.
21:10:31 <fizzie> (E.g. ligatures are often a single glyph but generally not a single grapheme cluster.)
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21:13:18 <Bike> https://twitter.com/ibogost/status/395659453405474816/photo/1
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21:32:18 <kmc> http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2008/04/21/fun-from-yesterday/
21:32:29 <kmc> Buzz Aldrin Space Rainbow Tennis
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21:34:00 <Bike> took me too long to realize they weren't real
21:34:37 <Bike> Oh, Man, Twizzlers
21:35:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid_Man#In_popular_culture v. encyclopedic
21:43:47 <myname> so... is there any esolang based on petri nets?
21:44:00 <myname> because i'd totally love that
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22:03:57 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/the-new-ops.png
22:05:53 <shachaf> i have many strange files in my web server directory
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23:10:01 <Bike> http://www.biostars.org/p/85108/ cool, bioinformatics is now at the "mock people's operating systems" stage of programming knowhow
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01:06:54 <Sgeo> > "After analyzing SCP-1461 and SCP-1461-01, it seems that SPC-1461is just made out of silver and nothing else abnormal is found but is about ████ years old and was retrieved in ██/██/████ and it’s still unknown how it dematerializes or let the subject find the object it’s looking for, as for SCP-1461-01 it made out of the object it needs to be and was discovered during testing"
01:06:55 <lambdabot> "After analyzing SCP-1461 and SCP-1461-01, it seems that SPC-1461is just ma...
01:07:05 <Sgeo> "This sentence is really really bad. It's literally at least 4 different ideas shoved into one sentence. It's the human centipede of sentences."
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01:09:13 <oerjan> are you confusing #esoteric with reddit
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01:14:03 <const> oerjan: is there a difference?
01:16:12 <Sgeo> Read an utterly terrifying SCP tale
01:16:27 <Sgeo> Well, not terrifying
01:16:36 <Sgeo> But it's the thing most likely to give me nightmares tonight
01:16:46 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/pila
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02:15:27 <oerjan> > ([1],"a") <> undefined
02:16:36 <Bike> > ([1],"a") <> ([2],"a")
02:17:25 <Bike> i misunderstood.
02:19:17 <Bike> oerjan: were you expecting, like, (1:undefined, 'a':undefined)?
02:19:39 <Bike> > [1] <> undefined
02:20:03 <oerjan> <> is a synonym for ++ for lists
02:20:27 <Bike> it's monoidal add right
02:20:34 <oerjan> i was mostly just wondering if the Monoid instance for tuples unwrapped them lazily.
02:21:15 <oerjan> because there was a stackoverflow answer suggesting it, and i got to think "what about infinite lists?"
02:34:43 <Bike> http://phpmanualmasterpieces.tumblr.com/post/65544023819/ i'm starting to think php could be linked to actual, major economic damage
02:38:42 <Bike> "PHP provides a SecureVar() function which is used to mark variables names as being secure variables. These secure variables can only be set directly in a PHP script, or they can come from a POST method form."
02:40:50 <kmc> «The password defaults to your unix username and falls back on “php” if it can’t figure it out.»
02:40:58 <kmc> «It mentions it’s “a good idea” to change the password but doesn’t actually mention how. »
02:42:43 <kmc> «You do not need to use this leading 0 in PHP since the functions that expect octal parameters are will simplyassume that the parameter is octal.»
02:42:54 <Bike> good use of espurr there
02:43:11 <kmc> meaning that they take decimal 755 and convert it to 0o755 = 493
02:47:30 <ais523> kmc: actually I think it's more likely a special case in the parser
02:47:52 <ais523> that will parse numbers as octal if they're literally the argument to chmod
02:48:08 <Bike> i thought of that too but i stopped thinking about it because i didn't want to think about it.
02:49:49 <kmc> the article makes it sound like what I said but I wouldn't put either kind of horribleness past them
02:49:56 <ais523> Bike: it's less insane than back-converting the base
02:50:36 <Bike> you think special casing function call syntax based on the function name is less insane than something?
02:50:51 <shachaf> http://php.net/manual/en/function.chmod.php says decimal values just don't work
02:51:26 <Bike> shachaf: this is php 2
02:52:43 <shachaf> well anyway the conversion thing sounds ambiguous
02:53:11 <ais523> Bike: yes, I think it's less insane than the alternative suggestion
02:56:54 <kmc> yeah the great thing about the conversion is that if you do write an octal literal, it'll be wrong
02:57:22 <shachaf> oh now i've actually read that page
02:58:44 <shachaf> i thought you meant it supported both but maybe it just supported decimal arguments
02:59:03 <shachaf> maybe it didn't support octal literals
02:59:33 <Bike> tht's the impression i got.
03:01:42 <ais523> oh, something I discovered recently: on Debian, ddate is in the same package as mkfs
03:01:51 <ais523> thus making it part of the "essential" functionality set that can never be removed
03:01:54 <ais523> without breaking the system
03:05:00 <shachaf> do you mean date or is that a different thing
03:05:18 <Bike> ddate, discordian date.
03:11:10 <ais523> yeah, it's the Discordian version of "date"
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03:46:34 <kmc> istr some controversy arising from this
03:47:02 <shachaf> Oh, now I see it on my Debian computer.
03:55:41 <pikhq> It's actually part of util-linux.
04:03:50 <kmc> https://twitter.com/holman/status/395674486973808640
04:05:39 <kmc> i don't have it on Ubuntu :(
04:05:48 <shachaf> since when do you use ubuntu
04:05:54 <shachaf> or is that a mozilla thing
04:06:04 <kmc> since it was one of the easy options for my micro EC2 instance
04:06:14 <kmc> i use Debian on my work and personal laptop and basically every other machine
04:06:39 <Fiora> cygwin doesn't have ddate :<
04:06:47 <Fiora> or, well, not in the default install I guess.
04:06:48 <kmc> Today is Pungenday, the 11th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3179
04:07:35 * Fiora should reaalllyyy run the updater on that note, and does so
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04:08:57 <kmc> why are you winning cygs, anyway
04:09:21 <kmc> i mean 'why are you using cygwin'
04:09:28 <kmc> sorry if that sounds more judgmental than I meant it to be
04:09:39 <Fiora> well it's kinda nice to have like, a unixy shell on windows?
04:09:50 <Fiora> and like, a development environment
04:10:10 <Fiora> I could use visual studio or something but I'm bad at it
04:11:37 <HackEgo> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 12th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3179
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04:14:55 <HackEgo> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 12th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3179
04:15:13 <HackEgo> Thu Oct 31 04:15:12 PST 2013
04:16:15 <oerjan> i think it interpreted it as portuguese instead of pacific
04:16:30 <kmc> yeah I guess I meant "why are you using Windows"
04:16:36 <kmc> if I had to use Windows then I would install Cygwin for sure
04:16:40 <kmc> but now I sound even more judgemental!
04:16:41 <HackEgo> Thu Oct 31 11:16:41 UTC 2013
04:16:49 <kmc> ttants: UTC-7, UTF-7
04:17:16 <kmc> `run TZ=Balls date
04:17:18 <HackEgo> Thu Oct 31 04:17:17 Balls 2013
04:17:59 <HackEgo> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 12th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3179
04:18:03 <kmc> `run TZ="'; DROP TABLE timezones --" date
04:18:32 <kmc> `run TZ=America/San_Francisco date
04:18:34 <HackEgo> Thu Oct 31 04:18:34 America 2013
04:19:08 <HackEgo> Today is Pungenday, the 11th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3179
04:19:40 <oerjan> something something switching + and -
04:19:50 <HackEgo> Wed Oct 30 21:19:49 UTC 2013
04:20:25 <Bike> `run TZ=UTC+31 ddate
04:20:26 <HackEgo> Today is Pungenday, the 11th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3179
04:20:41 <Bike> `run TZ=UTC+631 ddate
04:20:43 <HackEgo> Today is Pungenday, the 11th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3179
04:21:02 <oerjan> are you trying to collapse spacetime
04:21:14 <Bike> spin me right round
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04:21:57 <kmc> tomorrow: "spin me right round" featuring Bike
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04:26:31 <Fiora> I guess bike wheels do spin around a lot?
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04:30:28 <Bike> i don't mean to brag, but...
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05:01:31 <Sgeo> I need a stiff drink
05:04:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: those are called solids
05:05:01 <Sgeo> Will solids numb the pain of other people's stupidity?
05:05:24 <oerjan> some will. i think kmc knows more about that than me.
05:05:58 * oerjan hopes this is about an internet debate
05:06:01 <shachaf> `run quote solid | head -n1
05:06:03 <HackEgo> 245) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
05:06:13 <Bike> never been to stupidity
05:07:18 <shachaf> is kmc really as much of a drugz expert as we make him out to be
05:08:01 <Bike> well he said he took acid the other day. that's like 10000% more expertise than me.
05:08:24 <shachaf> kmc: is that true i didn't hear about that
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05:16:22 <kmc> you could have jello shots
05:16:30 <kmc> shachaf: yes I took acid last Saturday
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05:17:30 <Fiora> he might not take acid very often but he definitely knows the basics
05:17:33 * Fiora hides under the pun blanket
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05:51:00 <Koen_> I read your acid-flavoured joke and open a page in firefox (which has esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Random as its default page) and I immediately stumble upon "ACIDIC is an esoteric programming language made by User:iconmaster. "
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11:50:55 <boily> good milk tea morning!
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14:06:27 <fizzie> "The Committee makes no claims that a program written using trigraphs looks attractive." (C99 Rationale document.)
14:23:07 <nooodl> the ??!??! operator is cute though
14:24:24 <boily> I fail to understand the rationale behind C/C++'s {di,tri}graphs.
14:25:29 <Fiora> http://stackoverflow.com/a/1234596 seems to explain it?
14:26:23 <boily> “...this appears to be infeasible for some...” say wut?
14:26:58 <boily> the next answer (mentioning 3270es and suchlike) make a little bit more sense.
14:27:26 <Fiora> like when C was originally standardized not all keyboards/character sets had the necessary characters, I think
14:27:55 <boily> I know of at least one local corpo that shalln't be named that uses plenties of 3270es.
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14:28:21 <boily> (a friend had to suffer through them. he's permanently scared from the experience.)
14:28:24 <Fiora> oh gosh is that like the classic green screen terminal
14:28:45 <fizzie> boily: "While [trigraphs provide] a solution for the known limitations of EBCDIC (except for the exclamation mark) and ISO/IEC 646, the result is arguably not highly readable." (C99 Rationale, still.)
14:29:19 <boily> EBCDIC has no exclamation mark???!?!!!?!!!one!!six???
14:29:41 * boily is utterly terrified, which is a very suiting emotion today
14:30:07 <fizzie> I think that depends on the EBCDIC.
14:30:29 <fizzie> There's all kinds of EBCDICs.
14:30:40 <fizzie> The table in the Wikipedia article does include a !.
14:31:55 <fizzie> Also, I've done a bit of data entry over some tn3270-for-Windows-over-X.25 thing.
14:32:17 <fizzie> (My first summer job, in fact.)
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14:33:19 <Taneb> How would I cite an IRC log
14:34:10 <Bike> "personal communication" maybe
14:35:36 <Bike> https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/10/ owl has "online interview" and "nonperiodical web document"
14:36:07 <Taneb> Also I'm writing an essay on the impact of On Computable Numbners, With An Application TO The Entscheidungsproblem
14:37:23 <Bike> 'made hilbert very sad'
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14:38:33 <Taneb> I was wondering if I could talk about ais523's prize-winning proof
14:38:50 <Bike> i don't see why not.
14:38:59 <Bike> hell you could 'interview' him.
14:40:12 <Taneb> That's what I was thinking
14:40:17 <fizzie> Bike: There's some joke about "personal communication" in that jokey-methods-of-proof list.
14:40:45 <fizzie> http://pauillac.inria.fr/~xleroy/stuff/how-to-prove-it.html "Proof by personal communication: 'Eight-dimensional colored cycle stripping is NP-complete [Karp, personal communication].'"
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14:43:58 <Bike> i was going to ask my PI how "unpublished data" citations worked but i didn't have the balls
14:44:32 <fizzie> (Some of the other ones on the page are kind of funny (and perhaps sad-but-true) too.)
14:45:44 <Bike> 'To see that infinite-dimensional colored cycle stripping is decidable, we reduce it to the halting problem' heh
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14:49:30 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: the person who marks all my core assignments this year is, as it turns out, a total idiot
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14:50:49 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: :/
14:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i spent most of an hour-long supervision trying to get her to explain why you couldn't assume that the existence of an eigenvalue implied the existence of a corresponding eigenvector
14:55:12 <Bike> what would an eigenvalue without an eigenvector mean
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15:07:45 <fizzie> Bike: It's a \lambda such that A = \lambda. See, you just leave the vectors out.
15:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, well she seemed to take it to mean complex eigenvalues of real matrices
15:10:34 <Bike> doesn't that just mean you get complex eigenvectors
15:11:30 <Fiora> maybe it's like the thing where a root of a polynomial "doesn't exist" (code for "complex")?
15:12:04 <Bike> yes but that's silly and complexification is a godsend >_>
15:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> best part was that the question was asking about matrices over an arbitrary field anyway
15:12:31 <Bike> i'm no good at linear algebra but i think that it is in fact the same thing
15:12:42 <Bike> since the field should be algebraically closed bla bla
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15:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oh and also she marked four of us down because of this and gave another guy who'd used the exact same reasoning full marks
15:15:50 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: identify the relevant authorities and file a complaint
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15:16:50 <Bike> ehat's the deal with that anyway
15:17:37 <Phantom_Hoover> they're not getting very much of the tuition fees the government keeps jacking up to 'pay for students' education'
15:18:48 <Bike> sounds like murka
15:19:05 <boily> sounds like canada.
15:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> student loans here are lenient enough that i find it very hard to believe raising fees actually makes any money at all
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15:51:42 <boily> I feel like relcomming somebody...
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15:54:56 <oerjan> fizzie: please tell the email spammers i'm not finnish thx
15:58:48 <oerjan> <boily> (a friend had to suffer through them. he's permanently scared from the experience.) <-- that might be even worse than being permanently scarred.
16:02:01 <oerjan> i think the first page of google hits for "permanently scared" contains 2, _maybe_ 3 that are not misspellings.
16:02:18 <oerjan> of course personalization yada yada
16:03:04 <oerjan> one hit is about us politics, one is about a rat.
16:04:06 <HackEgo> somebody: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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16:22:57 <oklofok> "Proof by example: The author gives only the case n = 2 and suggests that it contains most of the ideas of the general proof."
16:23:17 <oklofok> i have whole articles that say "we only do the case d=2, the general case is similar"
16:24:17 <oerjan> and of course 3 and 4 is where everything usually breaks down
16:24:33 <nooodl> http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/license_monads/ this is good but i'll be damned if it hasn't been linked here
16:26:21 * oerjan sometimes thinks about the uncited "naturality of the pimsner-voiculescu exact sequence" we left in a paper
16:26:39 <oerjan> it's true, because i checked it (eventually)
16:27:05 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure at least 20% of my published results are wrong
16:27:12 <oklofok> that's why i never do two papers on the same topic
16:28:45 <oerjan> but we never found an actual citation, since it's not the kind of thing non-category theorists would care to prove.
16:29:31 <oerjan> but you can just keep track of the morphism in the usual proof.
16:30:24 <oerjan> well things have to be natural if you aren't doing something requiring arbitrary choices.
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16:30:32 <oklofok> btw we sent a paper to ergodic theory and dynamical systems, did i mention
16:31:04 <oklofok> the referee said we suck and that we should cite these 6 papers on orbit equivalence and other largely unrelated topics
16:31:29 <oklofok> i probably did but i'm a bit tired and cannot recall who i told this story
16:31:53 <oerjan> well you did mention a referee saying you sucked
16:32:21 <oerjan> also that some of the papers were by my advisor
16:32:35 <oklofok> that's why i talked about it
16:32:56 <oklofok> journals have really annoying referees
16:33:18 <oklofok> they never find any actual errors, but they can still nag endlessly
16:34:17 <oklofok> (but like little ones that no one cares about)
16:34:23 <oerjan> we once had a paper that was rejected for what we thought were lousy reasons, next time we submitted we explicitly asked them exclude a particular person as referee ("for priority reasons") and it went straight through.
16:35:41 <oerjan> well theoretically that's supposed to mean that that person might be competing with us over the proof we're submitting, i think
16:36:27 <oerjan> it was my collaborator who had the hunch to do this, anyway
16:37:20 <oklofok> the paper about substitutions was rejected because we didn't discuss existing methods
16:37:39 <oklofok> the thing is we haven't read _anything_ on the topic
16:38:04 <oklofok> i mean why would we right, clearly they're doing something wrong since this problem was open
16:39:08 <oklofok> (but mainly it's all some weird spectral/ergodic stuff and i don't understand it)
16:39:54 <oklofok> but yeah probably there's some little detail that we skipped that breaks the whole proof and all that literature is about solving that little thing
16:40:29 <Phantom_Hoover> so the person marking like half of my assignments this year took two weeks to mark a linear algebra assignment
16:40:39 <oklofok> yeah i heard, that's a bit silly
16:40:54 <oklofok> a bit of a coincidence, i checked 100 linear algebra exams today
16:41:08 <oklofok> (but just one out of four problems)
16:41:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: sounds like when i had a breakdown while TA'ing, did basically the same thing and they had to pass it on to someone else
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16:43:08 <oklofok> i think laziness is more common than breaking down though
16:44:13 <oklofok> so the problem i checked was something like prove that {(x,y,z) | y = 5x-3z} is a subspace of R^3
16:44:19 <oerjan> nah all the people you are calling lazy are really having breakdowns
16:44:26 <Phantom_Hoover> If it takes her this long to mark 3 calculation questions and an easy proof then I don't think I'm ever going to get any analysis marks back this term.
16:45:25 <oerjan> ah finally i got that piece stuck between my teeth
16:45:35 <oklofok> and also you had to find a basis for something like {(2a+b,a+b-c,-a-c,4a+b) | a,b,c \in R}
16:46:05 <oklofok> erm {(2a+b,a+b-c,-a-c,4a+2b) | a,b,c \in R}
16:46:41 <oklofok> most people said something like 2(2a+b) = 4a+2b, so you can drop 4a+2b. thus, 2a+b, a+b-c and -a-c are the basis.
16:49:40 <oklofok> some took the vectors (2,1,-1,4), (1,1,0,2), (0,-1,-1,0), and checked that they are linearly independent, thus a basis
16:49:52 <oklofok> "well that's a bit hard to show since it's false" you might say
16:50:07 <oklofok> you just compute the determinant of the matrix whose rows are those three vectors
16:52:14 <oklofok> at least one of them were, it has multiple different determinants
16:52:56 <oerjan> at least it is a generating set
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16:54:36 <oklofok> yeah i basically gave two points out of 12 if you managed to take that finite generating set and say it's a basis/generating set.
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16:56:21 <oklofok> also note that many students on the course are philosophers and such
16:56:21 <oerjan> it's easy if you're determined enough
16:56:36 <oklofok> there's a separate linear algebra course for math people
16:56:58 * FireFly was confused for a while what the determinant of the 4x3 matrix would be
16:57:02 <oklofok> apparently it's shoppe time now
16:57:03 <oerjan> everyone sucks at different levels
16:57:11 <FireFly> I thought I was missing something first..
16:58:31 <oklofok> is there a notion of determinant where the determinant would be something like the volume of the image
16:59:17 <oklofok> kind of like there's a hausdorff measure but when it's zero, you can compute the (d-1)-dimensional measure and such
17:02:03 <oerjan> problem is, that won't be basis independent
17:02:50 <oerjan> like, if you stretch the space in a direction normal to the image
17:03:19 <oerjan> composing that with your matrix won't change it
17:18:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Contrary to what you might believe, I don't know all email scammers personally.
17:21:13 <fizzie> (Also I've got some students coming to meet me tomorrow morning, eugh.)
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17:59:56 <boily> back from lunch and multiple things and lots of rain and halloween preparations and...
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18:51:56 <fizzie> What could make an image (with a data: URI) behave so (in Chromium) that the "Open Image in New Tab" and "Save Image As..." options of the context menu are grayed out? It didn't used to do that, before.
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18:52:29 <olsner> maybe they just removed the feature to save data: urls?
18:52:54 <fizzie> But, I mean, it worked like two days ago.
18:53:10 <fizzie> Though perhaps I upgraded the browser. I guess that's possible.
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18:56:16 <fizzie> If I make it an <a href="data:..."> instead, and right-click that link, I get a "He's dead, Jim!" Chromium crash page.
18:56:38 <boily> looks like you... *puts on glasses*... up-grayed your browser...
18:57:27 <boily> upgraded with gray.
18:57:44 <fizzie> I wonder if there's some way to get an actual error message corresponding to the he's-dead thing.
18:57:53 * boily hides under his desk in shame
18:58:06 <olsner> but maybe it should be upgrayeded as in more-grayed-made
18:58:29 <fizzie> No, I mean, I get *that*.
18:58:36 <fizzie> What I don't get is why it behaves like this.
18:59:05 <fizzie> I think I'll just upgrade it further. Can't get any worse, right?
18:59:30 * boily dons a hazmat suit and gets in a bunker
18:59:40 <boily> go ahead! nothing bad can happen!
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19:03:27 <fizzie> It didn't get worse, but it didn't get any better either.
19:04:22 <fizzie> A non-gray "print..." selection seems to have appeared in the context menu, but other than that it's still the same, and right-clicking the link still crashes the page.
19:06:05 <fizzie> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=97108 should work fine, as far as I can tell.
19:10:31 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
19:11:06 <fizzie> Also if I make the <a> element have a download="foo.png" attribute -- which "Can be used with blob: URLs and data: URLs, to make it easy for users to download content that is generated programmatically" -- Chromium still crashes when I click the link.
19:11:12 <fizzie> I guess it must be some sort of a bug.
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19:15:44 <boily> weird. on my chromium “open in new tab” and “save as...” both work, but I have to double-right-click to open the contextual menu...
19:16:02 <boily> (version 30.0.1599.114)
19:16:23 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it *worked* in this same Chromium. But I might be wrong about that. I'm sure it worked on a Google Chrome.
19:17:23 <fizzie> Also a plain "data:text/plain;charset=UTF-8,hello world" link (not <img>, of course) behaves well (doesn't crash when right-clicked, saves to disk when left-clicked), but not the thing I get from canvas.toDataURL('image/png');.
19:17:39 <fizzie> (Even though it works in img.src fine.)
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19:18:40 <fizzie> It seems to be some sort of a length-related thing.
19:18:47 <fizzie> Because when it's a small picture, it works fine.
19:19:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:19:29 -!- augur has joined.
19:19:38 <fizzie> I think I'm going to binary-search the exact limit. (If there is one.)
19:19:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:19:59 <boily> what version are you running?
19:20:07 -!- augur has joined.
19:24:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:24:43 <fizzie> 30.0.1599.101, apparently.
19:25:36 <fizzie> Also I can manage a .png of up to 1572663 bytes, but the next step larger from there goes and crashes.
19:25:49 <fizzie> > 1572663*4/3 -- for base64
19:26:12 <fizzie> I'm going to go ahead and say it crashes for data: URIs longer than two megabytes.
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19:27:04 <fizzie> The save-as and such also work for smaller images.
19:27:19 <fizzie> I guess it could be some sort of a designed-in limitation. But that's annoying.
19:27:28 <fizzie> Two megs isn't really a whole lot for an image, for one thing.
19:28:16 <fizzie> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=45395 heh.
19:29:25 <fizzie> "The issue we had was that arbitrary length URIs (including data URIs) could easily consume excessive resources in the browser process and cause it to crash. As I remember we originally capped it at 10M, but still found ways to trigger crashes until we capped it at 2M."
19:30:08 <Bike> kind of curious why you want to do this
19:30:43 <fizzie> For the obvious reason. I produce an image programmatically, and want to offer a "save it" option.
19:31:32 <Taneb> I've taken out a book on category theory from my understoo
19:31:36 <fizzie> (And Chrome doesn't support canvas.toBlob at all, apparently.)
19:31:52 <Taneb> ...university's library
19:32:05 <Taneb> I may tomorrow ask for help
19:32:27 <Fiora> are there like, javascript jpeg encoders for that?
19:33:07 <Bike> encode image as javascript, kolmogorov minimize that shit
19:33:20 <Bike> a new age of demosceners!!
19:33:24 <fizzie> It's not the kind of image I'd encode as JPEG.
19:33:48 <fizzie> canvas.toDataURL could probably produce a JPEG, anyway.
19:33:55 <fizzie> Still, two megs is two megs.
19:34:06 <fizzie> A PNG is what I'm already producing.
19:34:20 <Bike> encode as xbm, for portability
19:34:35 <Bike> man i fucking love that format
19:34:59 <boily> split the canvas in small canvas, then save the smaller images?
19:35:28 <Taneb> An ascii format like ppm?
19:35:29 <fizzie> boily: I'm sure the hypothetical user would love getting MxN small images and a popup "please assemble the final result in Gimp or something manually" message.
19:36:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: movie starting).
19:36:17 <fizzie> Even if I had a pure-JS PNG encoder, I don't see how a JavaScript encoder could provide a "save as" option except via packing the thing up in a data: URI, in which case I'd run into the same problem. (Unless maybe by making a Blob and a blob object reference URL instead.)
19:37:06 <fizzie> Maybe I can just take the data: URI and base-64 decode it into blob, that's not hard.
19:37:27 <fizzie> (Also shortcuttable if someone bothers to add canvas.toBlob at some point.)
19:38:51 <olsner> maybe you could encode it as ascii instead of base-64?
19:39:17 <fizzie> I don't think I can choose what canvas.toDataURL produces.
19:39:45 <fizzie> Though I could un-base64, theoretically, I guess. Still, it's just that 4/3 factor.
19:40:09 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just not care. Two megs should be enough for everyone.
19:40:10 -!- Yonkie has joined.
19:47:45 <HackEgo> Yonkie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:50:51 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:54:25 <fizzie> Welp, the blob method (via base64 decoding the canvas.toDataURI string, packing it up in a Blob, and doing URL.createObjectURL for the image) works just fine even for large images.
19:55:52 <mrhmouse> Nobody gave me a rainbow welcome..
19:56:07 <HackEgo> mrhmouse: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:56:20 <Fiora> not everyone gets welcomes, and some people get like, 7 welcomes
19:56:28 <Fiora> it's just, like, a distribution centered around one welcome
19:57:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:57:51 <mrhmouse> I see.. I don't suppose Plugnburn is here under a different name?
19:58:06 <fizzie> Is it a... Poisson distribution?
19:58:24 -!- augur has joined.
19:58:27 <Fiora> Poisson or Laplacian maybe?
19:58:37 <kmc> `relcome ais523\unfoog
19:58:39 <HackEgo> ais523\unfoog: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:59:20 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't know how make a discrete Laplacian, or give someone non-integral welcomes.
19:59:44 <Fiora> maybe like, round to nearest?
20:00:02 <Fiora> maybe someone should make a fractional welcome script.
20:00:09 <HackEgo> fizzie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming lang
20:00:30 <fizzie> ais523\unfoog: That's still quite discrete. (If admittedly non-integral.)
20:00:52 <olsner> `run relcome fizzie | head -c $RANDOM
20:00:55 <HackEgo> fizzie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:01:07 <olsner> ... that was spectacular
20:01:37 <Fiora> `run relcome | sed `s/\(..\)\(.\)\(.*\)/\1\3/g'
20:01:38 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:01:45 <Fiora> `run relcome | sed 's/\(..\)\(.\)\(.*\)/\1\3/g'
20:01:47 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:02:11 <boily> what the fungot is going on. I leave my desk for like 5 mins top, and what do I see?
20:02:12 <fungot> boily: libcurl might be more than 26 single-letter languages, that's really something a compact camera can offer that most slrs don't remember
20:02:25 <boily> fungot: huh? cameras support unicode now?
20:02:26 <fungot> boily: huh.......interesting....... doesn't everyone have an imaginary part and a little bit take some time to play with some preliminary stuff at http://chicken.humankraft.com/ fnord
20:02:27 <Fiora> `run relcome | sed 's/\(..\)\(.\)/\1/g'
20:02:30 <HackEgo> Wecoe 02o 06heineratonl 04ubfo eotri pogamin lngag dsin 13nddelomet!Fo mreinoraton cec ot 13urwii:htp:/eolng.og/ik/MinPae.(Fr 09heoterkid 13f 04soerca ty 08esteiconir.dl.et)
20:02:44 <Fiora> there. it's like, half a welcome.
20:02:52 <boily> fungot: oh, so the support is imaginary. guess I didn't have to expect much more from hardware manufacturers.
20:02:53 <fungot> boily: i'm not insulting him, etc. what have i been using display?
20:03:07 <boily> fungot: some samsung monitor, 1920×1080.
20:03:09 <FireFly> Fiora: I think you're better of with applying rainwords *after* that sed line
20:03:14 <Fiora> oh. that makes sense.
20:03:24 <fizzie> fungot: To be entirely honest, your box is actually headless.
20:03:24 <fungot> fizzie: i'm getting an " fnord jump instruction", i don't even know
20:03:26 <Fiora> `run welcome | sed 's/\(..\)\(.\)/\1/g' | rainwords
20:03:29 <HackEgo> Wecoe o heineratonl ubfo eotri pogamin lngag dsin nddelomet!Fo mreinoraton cec ot urwii:htp:/eolng.og/ik/MinPae.(Fr heoterkid f soerca ty esteiconir.dl.et)
20:03:37 <FireFly> 08esteiconir.dl.et sounds like a fishy page
20:03:37 <Fiora> yeah that works better <.<;
20:03:49 <fizzie> FireFly: Oh, I thought it was kind of better the way it was.
20:04:13 <Fiora> .et is apparently a TLD
20:04:37 * FireFly wonders what the urwii:htp protocol is
20:05:08 <Fiora> this channel is all about eotri pogamin lngag!!
20:05:16 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
20:05:18 <fizzie> .og is sadly not a TLD.
20:05:23 <boily> are there any ethiopian domains out there? I never seen any.
20:05:23 <FireFly> I like that the parens are still matched
20:05:34 <boily> fungot: since when do you paren match?
20:05:35 <fungot> boily: fnord doesn't seem to work correctly
20:05:48 <fungot> FireFly: then i can set up something more... usual for later.
20:05:52 <boily> fungot: oh. continue not fnording, then, if there's a conflict between the two.
20:05:52 <Fiora> http://www.mfa.gov.et/ ?
20:05:53 <fungot> boily: that sounds like a huge, bloated program referred to as 2006. e3 can be referred to as ' stem cells' haven't been proven to be. i've not gotten my head around
20:06:19 <Fiora> asdfsdfd they use the <marquee> tag
20:06:42 <olsner> fun fact: marquee is the best html tag
20:06:50 <fizzie> <marquee onmouseover="this.stop()" onmouseout="this.start()"> very classy.
20:07:49 * boily whacks fizzie with the reification of an animated .gif background
20:07:50 -!- Bike has joined.
20:07:54 <fizzie> They really shoud get on with it and go with style="marquee-style: alternate; marquee-speed: fast; marquee-play-count: infinite;" or something.
20:07:59 <FireFly> olsner: I prefer blink. fun fact, "hello".blink() in most JS engines gives you "<blink>hello</blink>"
20:08:32 <Bike> what's et, estonia?
20:08:50 <Bike> ethiopia. "darn, i was close"
20:08:53 <boily> Bike: estonia is .ee.
20:09:01 <fizzie> And there's a lot of .ee domains out there.
20:09:12 <Bike> i wonder if there's an internationalized domain name thingie in ge'ez
20:10:34 <boily> i18ned domain names are fun! http://西貢租盤.香港/
20:11:05 <kmc> Eesti Nõukogude Sotsialistlik Vabariik
20:11:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:11:22 <fizzie> http://esolangs.онлайн/ would be the hottest for the wiki.
20:11:25 <boily> (and I really do have to learn Estonian)
20:11:42 <Bike> do you really?
20:11:43 <fizzie> Or possibly esolangs.сайт. Or both!
20:11:50 <kmc> huh I had forgotten that estonian uses õ
20:12:11 <kmc> fizzie: I think you're not allowed to mix scripts, though :/
20:12:12 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
20:12:19 <Bike> i read that as o with tilde every time and i hate it
20:12:39 <Bike> son of a bitch.
20:12:49 <kmc> so we could be эсолангс.сайт
20:13:06 <kmc> do we have a welcome.ru?
20:13:28 <boily> who speaks Russian in this chännel?
20:13:28 <fizzie> kmc: ЕсоЛангс.онлайн then.
20:14:03 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't see you said that already.
20:14:13 <fizzie> (Had to pick letters from gucharmap laboriously, I don't have a system set up.)
20:14:31 <kmc> I used Google Translate's transliterate-as-i-type feature
20:14:54 <fizzie> I've done one course's worth of Russian at the university.
20:15:06 <fizzie> Not enough to make a proper welcome.ru, though.
20:15:09 <kmc> it really should be эсꙮлангс.сайт
20:15:45 <boily> esquarelangs.site?
20:15:49 <fizzie> What do you type in Google Translate to get ꙮ?
20:16:01 <fizzie> `run unidecode ꙮ # what else could it be?
20:16:03 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
20:17:19 <kmc> `paste bin/unidecode
20:17:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/unidecode
20:17:46 <kmc> `unidecode abcdef
20:17:48 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B] [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F]
20:18:02 <kmc> I should learn Python's new .format()
20:18:06 <kmc> now that Rust has adopted similar syntax
20:18:13 <olsner> `unicode эсꙮлангс.сайт
20:18:29 <kmc> `unidecode эсꙮлангс.сайт
20:18:31 <HackEgo> [U+044D CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER E] [U+0441 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ES] [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] [U+043B CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EL] [U+0430 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A] [U+043D CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EN] [U+0433 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER GHE] [U+0441 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ES] [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+0441 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ES] [U+0430 CYRILLIC S
20:19:19 <kmc> Bike: wp even says "Not to be confused with Ő, O with double acute."
20:19:26 <kmc> are you disobeying them??
20:19:51 <olsner> "Not to be confused with the completely normal letter ö"
20:20:24 <kmc> 'Even in the Encyclopædia Britannica one can find "ostrov Khiuma", where "ostrov" means "island" in Russian and "Khiuma" is back-transliteration from Russian instead of "Hiiumaa" (Hiiumaa>Хийума(а)>Khiuma).'
20:20:49 <Bike> fizzie: is it just me or are the rules for when variable settings in a parfor affect the surrounding context... kind of obscure
20:21:39 <fizzie> Bike: I've never really bothered to got the hang of them, which perhaps says something.
20:21:59 <Bike> i'm just wondering if this running average will work.
20:22:05 <Bike> oh well, i'll just try it, that's totally sensible
20:22:26 <Bike> oh, mlint hits them. i uh, think.
20:22:26 <fizzie> Bike: If I want something out from a parfor loop (that doesn't go in a file), I just make outputs = cell(n, 1); and put outputs{ix} = stuff; inside.
20:22:38 <fizzie> That seems to work sensibly.
20:25:19 <fizzie> olsner: Estonian also has an ö that makes, well, an ö (/ø/). The õ is the /ɤ/ instead.
20:25:52 <fizzie> Bike: Did I already mention what I hate about parfor dispatching?
20:25:58 <kmc> Bike: oh is this MATLAB again?
20:26:08 <Bike> fizzie: don't think so
20:26:59 <fizzie> Bike: It decides on a uniform distribution of loop indices to workers a priori, assuming every iteration takes constant time, even though it still keeps in touch with all the workers dynamically (for moving data back and forth) and could therefore just as easily give them loop indices as they become free.
20:27:37 <fizzie> Currently if you do parfor f = 1:nfiles; processafile(files{f}); end and the files are, say, audio files with different durations, some of the workers will finish earlier and then just lay idle for hours.
20:29:11 -!- metasepia has joined.
20:29:11 <fizzie> (Especially if there's some pathological pattern instead of random variation in the durations, since it always allocates every N'th index to a particular worker, unless I misremember.)
20:29:23 <olsner> wikipedia's sound player is doing something weird, sounds like it's starting twice when I click play
20:29:42 <olsner> sometimes more than twice, with a varying delay
20:30:06 <boily> olsner: maybe they applied a Steve Reich remix to all their sound tidbits?
20:30:44 <olsner> maybe, how does that sound?
20:31:13 <boily> olsner: http://youtu.be/FcFyl8amoEE
20:35:46 <olsner> they should've hidden the clappers in the audience
20:40:07 <fizzie> Ohhhh. Well, *that* explains it. I had some OCRemix Mega Man thing -- http://mm25.ocremix.org/ -- playing in another tab.
20:40:15 <fizzie> Made that YouTube link quite different.
20:40:25 <Bike> http://www.mathworks.com/support/solutions/en/data/1-188VX/index.html sigh
20:40:29 <fizzie> I was wondering why it was already playing things when they were obviously just setting up.
20:41:30 <fizzie> "Since UNIX uses asynchronous signals, it is possible to break out of any operation and into the signal handler at any time." Well, now, that's not quite true.
20:41:47 <Bike> indeed, it contradicts itself later.
20:41:48 <fizzie> At least I've been in situations where ^C in MATLAB (in Linux) did nothing in particular.
20:43:34 <mrhmouse> Perhaps MATLAB is just ignoring the signals?
20:43:59 -!- Lymia has joined.
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20:50:16 <mroman> can't you just ignore the signals
20:50:24 <mroman> and if that does not work
20:50:31 <mroman> you can setjmp out of a sigsegv
20:50:47 <mroman> possibly sigkill as well
20:51:08 <kmc> is that like jumping out of a crashing helicopter seconds before it explodes
20:51:16 <kmc> also you can't trap SIGKILL
20:51:37 <kmc> not really
20:51:48 <Fiora> missing ctrl-c might happen if like, there's a signal handler, but the signal handler can get stuck, right?
20:52:01 <Fiora> like maybe ctrl-c calls a handler that says "start terminating the current operation cleanly"
20:52:10 <Fiora> but if the termination gets stuck then ctrl-c just doesn't do anything
20:52:39 <Bike> "you can setjmp out of a sigsegv" well, thanks for reminding me that it's not just matlab that's terrifying, i guess
20:52:48 <mroman> you can ignore sigterm
20:52:58 <kmc> ^C is SIGINT, I thought
20:52:58 <Fiora> yeah, you can ignore everything except... sigkill and sigstop?
20:53:30 <Fiora> oh... huh, SIGINT and SIGTERM are different things
20:53:30 <mroman> Bike: are you the francophone guy
20:53:37 <mroman> or was that someone else with a B
20:53:44 <Bike> you're thinking of boily, probably
20:54:04 <kmc> Fiora: yeah... there's also SIGQUIT
20:54:15 <kmc> 'The SIGQUIT signal is similar to SIGINT, except that it's controlled by a different key—the QUIT character, usually C-\—and produces a core dump when it terminates the process, just like a program error signal. You can think of this as a program error condition “detected” by the user. '
20:54:34 <Fiora> does that like, ask the process to core dump, or does the shell do that?
20:54:52 <kmc> I don't know
20:54:59 <kmc> might just be the default disposition involves coredumping
20:54:59 <Fiora> that sounds kinda convenient actually
20:55:05 <kmc> except coredumps are usually disabled globally
20:55:06 <olsner> the jvm traps quit and dumps stack traces for all threads
20:55:12 <kmc> but maybe that's a ulimit you can raise
20:55:26 <Fiora> I've remembered having to futz with ulimits a lot to try to get a core dump of a running process that's infinite looping or something >_<
20:55:40 <fizzie> Fiora: Missing ^C can also easily happen when multiple processes are involved.
20:55:57 <kmc> I loved that Linux coredump crontab.d vulnerability....
20:56:04 <Fiora> oh huh. SIGBUS is when the memory address doesn't exist
20:56:14 <Fiora> instead of when it's just protected
20:56:18 <kmc> basically you could make a setuid root process dump core in /etc/cron.d/
20:56:31 <fizzie> I think my cases have been the kind of things where you have a for i = 1:bignumber; dosomething(i); end where dosomething involves a system() call or something, and you can't get ^c in fast enough to get one passed over to MATLAB instead of the executed process.
20:56:39 <kmc> and the cron daemon will gladly ignore megabytes of binary garbage preceeding and following a legitimate crontab entry
20:56:44 <fizzie> (Except with an out-of-band kill.)
20:56:45 <kmc> \rainbow{POSTEL'S LAW}
20:57:04 <kmc> Fiora: ah, interesting
20:57:20 <kmc> Fiora: I almost never get SIGBUS on x86 Linux... it's common on OS X though, for things that would be segfaults on Linux
20:57:27 <fizzie> SIGBUS is whatever SIGBUS wants to be. (Sometimes it's bad alignment.)
20:57:28 <kmc> i think it's a pretty arbitrary distinction
20:57:39 <Fiora> kmc: oh gohs, I looked up that vulnerability
20:57:40 <kmc> similarly SIGFPE is used mainly for /integer/ arithmetic errors
20:57:43 <myname> gentleman, i present you: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wolfgang
20:57:49 <kmc> Fiora: that was the vuln that motivated the creation of Ksplice
20:57:59 <Fiora> kmc: yeah, that makes sooo little sense to me. SIGFPE is.... integer divide by zero???
20:58:02 <Bike> wait, which gentleman
20:58:12 <kmc> a SIPB server that Jeff Arnold admined got pwned between the announcement of the vuln and the update window
20:58:13 <Fiora> though I think maybe sigfpe is overloaded for um. floating point exceptions? I'm not sure, I've never actually turned them on
20:58:16 <fizzie> I think systems on architectures with actual alignment restrictions generally do SIGBUS on bad alignment.
20:58:18 <boily> mroman: bonjour! j'étais momentanément absent, mais je suis de retour.
20:58:24 <Bike> myname: nice little thing though
20:58:57 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, divide by zero, or INT_MIN / -1
20:59:06 <kmc> (the latter is a corner case that people almost never think about)
20:59:06 <Fiora> oh gosh, right, that latter one is extra evil
21:00:53 <fizzie> You get SIGFPE (on x86) also if you manage to overflow a division, which isn't possible (except for the /-1 case) when the operands are equally wide as the result, but the underlying division has a double-wide numerator.
21:01:03 <Bike> Does the variance of two summed datasets equal the sum of the variances of the sets?
21:01:40 <Bike> looks like yes as long as they're not correlated...?
21:01:42 <kmc> Var(X + Y) = Var(X) + Var(Y) + 2 Cov(X, Y)
21:02:22 <Bike> hm, these probably aren't actually uncorrelated, guess i shouldn't risk it
21:02:46 <fizzie> `run echo 'int d(int x) { asm("div %0" : : "r" (x), "a" (0), "d" (-1)); } int main(void) { return d(1); }' | gcc -x c - -o /tmp/x; /tmp/x; rm /tmp/x
21:02:49 <kmc> https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/daala/demo1.shtml (through demo4.shtml) shows off some really cool video codec work
21:02:49 <HackEgo> bash: line 1: 293 Floating point exception/tmp/x
21:02:55 <kmc> (from my friends at Mozilla Research)
21:03:06 <kmc> I don't know much about video codecs but it's interestingly different from what I do know
21:03:14 <Bike> "cov(x), if X is a vector, returns the variance" thanks
21:03:21 <fizzie> I ran across Daala the other day from that article about Cisco doing that thing w.r.t. H.264.
21:03:32 <kmc> overlapping, variable-size blocks, intra-frame prediction in frequency domain
21:03:47 <Fiora> fizzie: huh, so like. "idiv" can overflow if your denominator is 1 and your numerator is 64-bit?
21:03:51 <Fiora> and that'll sigfpe?
21:04:26 <kmc> the approach for avoiding block artifacts is to apply a reversible filter before encoding which makes the video extra blocky
21:04:39 <kmc> somehow this works and is a more principled way to approach the ad-hoc deblocking that all codecs do
21:05:20 <fizzie> Fiora: "idiv" and "div" both, yes. And of course for all operand sizes. It's just that you can't (generally) get a well-behaving compiler to perform a 64x32-to-32 (or 32x16-to-16, or 16x8-to-8) division, since if one operand is 64 bits, it's going to go with 64x64-to-64. (Implemented using the 128x64-to-64 one, or with software.)
21:05:22 <kmc> also it does chroma-from-luma prediction
21:05:38 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
21:06:38 <kmc> (again in the frequency domain)
21:06:44 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Ping timeout: 1337 seconds).
21:08:15 <myname> so, have to check if it's turing complete
21:08:46 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wolfgang
21:10:28 <mroman> boily: j'ais commencé d'apprendre le francais de nouveau ;)
21:13:49 <Fiora> fizzie: gosh. that is so freaky. I guess that explains why compmilers don't like to use it
21:13:53 <boily> mroman: c'est bien!
21:14:04 <mroman> si tu es d'accord je demanderai toi de temps en temps si j'ais besoin d'aide
21:15:28 <fizzie> Fiora: It's a common (FSVO) cause of questions from people who are puzzled why their "div x" is misbehaving (because they've not properly zeroed or sign-extended-to ah/dx/edx/rdx).
21:16:11 <Fiora> yeah, I figured that would be an issue but I had no idea it would misbehave quite that badly
21:16:53 <Fiora> are there like, security vulnerabilities because of SIGFPEs?
21:17:24 <mroman> shouldn't it just terminate?
21:17:33 <Fiora> I guess you could like, DoS a server?
21:17:55 <mroman> if you can trick a server into divbyzero
21:18:05 <fizzie> Passing in values that'd cause it to do that INT_MIN / -1 thing sounds feasible.
21:18:13 <kmc> reminds me of http://www.exploringbinary.com/php-hangs-on-numeric-value-2-2250738585072011e-308/
21:18:19 <mroman> sounds feasible to crash a server yes
21:18:24 <kmc> which created a lot of remote DoS vulns
21:18:26 <Fiora> oh gosh. that thing.
21:18:37 <kmc> i can't think immediately of how SIGFPE could have a worse consequence than DoS, but there probably is a way
21:18:40 <Fiora> x87's endless wonderfulness~
21:18:59 <kmc> one of the io.sts levels is a contrived program where the SIGFPE handler gives you a shell and you have to come up with a way to hit it without dividing by zero
21:19:57 <kmc> ais523\unfoog: main() takes two numbers on the command line, and divides them, but only if the second is nonzero
21:20:12 <kmc> and it's a setuid program (that's the point of exploiting it) so you can't just change that behavior
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21:21:15 <ais523\unfoog> if there's any other solution, it probably involves a parser abuse
21:21:25 <boily> mroman: pas de problème. je suis toujours ouvert!
21:23:23 <kmc> ais523\unfoog: you mean exploiting atoi()?
21:23:49 <ais523\unfoog> kmc: hmm, well IIRC atoi doesn't handle error that well…
21:24:28 <kmc> there were some awesome JS engine security holes arising from NaN boxing and string -> float conversions which would let the attacker specify the unused NaN bit
21:26:16 <Fiora> kmc: :o any good links on that?
21:26:56 <kmc> http://wingolog.org/archives/2011/05/18/value-representation-in-javascript-implementations talks about NaN boxing
21:27:29 <kmc> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9435338/what-is-the-aim-of-js-canonicalize-nan-in-spidermonkey-engine
21:27:37 <kmc> i don't have a link about the vuln though
21:28:06 <Fiora> wow, fixnums. it's like lisp
21:28:55 <Fiora> "Anyway, the other way of looking at NaN-boxing is that there are 264 - 248 values in a pointer that aren't being used, and we might as well stuff something in them, and hey, the whole space of valid double precision numbers fits!"
21:29:00 <Fiora> wow. that is. phenomenally evil
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21:31:52 <mroman> what's that about non-used pointer?
21:32:22 <Fiora> it's the thing where like, most systems only have like 48 out of 64 address bits available?
21:32:32 <kmc> address sizes : 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
21:32:59 <mroman> they aren't actually 64bit systems/
21:33:20 <kmc> mroman: it would require a lot more space for page tables to support a full 64-bit space
21:33:29 <kmc> the tree would be deeper
21:33:36 <kmc> that's one concern anyway
21:33:39 <kmc> also just more wires on the chip
21:33:48 <mroman> I don't know how paging works in longmode
21:33:55 <kmc> mroman: I don't know about in general, I know about AMD64 specifically
21:34:09 <kmc> on architectures with soft-filled TLBs the pagetable thing wouldn't be an issue
21:34:14 <Fiora> I think they're "64-bit" in the sense that like, the native register size is 64-bit? just it saves hardware to not support 2^64 possible addresses or something
21:34:32 <kmc> AMD64 has this notion of "canonical address" where the 16 unused address bits have to match the top one
21:34:38 <kmc> when you dereference a pointer
21:34:44 <kmc> this is to prevent people from abusing those bits for tagging tricks
21:34:51 <kmc> so that they won't break forwards-compat
21:35:35 <kmc> http://blog.xen.org/index.php/2012/06/13/the-intel-sysret-privilege-escalation/ an interesting vuln arising from that feature and from subtle differences between Intel's and AMD's implementation of x86_64
21:36:10 <kmc> mroman: of course even if the hardware supports full 64-bit virtual addresses, you might decide to leave some of the space unmapped to use it for tag bits
21:36:19 <kmc> but then (as on AMD64) you would need to mask those out before deref'ing
21:36:45 <Fiora> wait, intel actually /lets/ you dereference those invalid addresses? O_O
21:37:01 <Fiora> or oh, you mean amd64 as in 64-bit
21:37:04 <Fiora> not amd's implementation
21:37:27 <kmc> Intel and AMD chips differ regarding what happens when executing SYSRET if RCX is a non-canonical address
21:38:01 <kmc> specifically, regarding whether the exception is thrown in the old or the new privilege mode
21:38:19 <kmc> "So if the guest can induce the hypervisor to have a non-canonical RIP to return to, it can set the RSP to any value it wants to in hypervisor memory, and get the hardware (in delivering a #GP) to overwrite it. This can in turn be leveraged into a full exploit (the details of which are left as an exercise to the reader)."
21:39:22 <Fiora> see, lambdabot agrees
21:39:31 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, this wasn't just a vuln in Xen either; it hit a lot of OSes at various times
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21:52:42 <Bike> wow, parfor almost makes everything more sensible, since suddenly matlab has to be able to do lexical analysis.
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22:03:16 <kmc> you just used "MATLAB" and "sensible" in the same sentence
22:03:39 <Bike> i also used "almost" and "more"
22:04:03 <Bike> if it's any consolation it only rejects the hard to analyze code at runtime instead of telling me in lint.
22:04:16 <Bike> `thanks MATLAB
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22:15:15 <fizzie> The MATL*a*b* colorspace is perceptually uniform but also does numerical computing.
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22:17:56 <kmc> hey fizzie do you like video codecs
22:18:03 <kmc> then you should read the links i sent about Daala
22:19:13 <shachaf> maybe i should read The Illuminatus! Trilogy
22:19:23 <kmc> you definitely should
22:19:27 <kmc> no maybe about it
22:21:01 <fizzie> kmc: [23:04:08] <fizzie> I ran across Daala the other day from that article about Cisco doing that thing w.r.t. H.264.
22:21:08 <fizzie> kmc: Already doned it!
22:21:37 <kmc> oh, I missed you saying that
22:21:37 <fizzie> (Okay, I kind of glanced over some parts of it.)
22:21:38 <shachaf> but should i read it before or after i learn all of maths
22:23:04 <Bike> do you need to know math to read illuminatus, now
22:23:27 <olsner> just a fungot of math will serve, I think
22:23:27 <fungot> olsner: yes; you can just drive her crazy!! crazy!!! fnord fnord teens fnord fnord fnord
22:23:45 <fizzie> I got a copy of (the Finnish translation of) The Illuminatus! Trilogy as a birthday present from my mother, I think. (No idea about translation quality.)
22:24:02 <Bike> i'd be curious to see how they translated the band names.
22:24:22 <fizzie> I could theoretically take a look, it's right here in the bookshelf.
22:24:30 <fizzie> If you know approximately whereabouts I could find them.
22:24:42 <shachaf> my father tried to make me read a copy of _Sinuhe egyptiläinen_ translated into hebrew
22:25:06 <Bike> geez, i don't know. it's like a three page long list and i think it's in the last part of the trilogy.
22:25:08 <shachaf> i think that was the one, at least?
22:25:14 <fizzie> I've read Sinuhe, but on the other hand I'm Finnish.
22:25:23 <fizzie> It's kind of required reading.
22:28:55 <shachaf> kmc: should i register that
22:29:03 <shachaf> i think maybe i could register that but maybe not
22:29:15 <shachaf> do i need a finnish postal address to register a .fi domain
22:29:44 <fizzie> Bike: I found it, and they've not translated the names.
22:30:56 <fizzie> You kind of need a Finnish postal address.
22:31:04 <fizzie> It's not exactly a postal address, but something reasonably similar.
22:31:44 <fizzie> "You will be granted a fi-domain name if you
22:31:44 <fizzie> have a Finnish personal ID number; and
22:31:44 <fizzie> have a permanent address in a Finnish municipality.
22:31:44 <fizzie> Also, fi-domain names are granted to
22:31:46 <fizzie> companies and private entrepreneurs;
22:31:49 <fizzie> Finnish public bodies and state enterprises;
22:31:51 <fizzie> independent public corporations and public associations; and
22:31:54 <fizzie> diplomatic missions of a foreign state
22:31:56 <fizzie> registered with the trade register or the registers of associations or foundations in Finland."
22:32:10 <shachaf> what, not to regular people?
22:32:39 <fizzie> Those are two separate categories.
22:32:52 <shachaf> well, i meant under the regular people category
22:33:14 <fizzie> Under the regular people category, you need to fill those first three conditions.
22:33:24 <fizzie> Which are slightly stricter than just having a postal address.
22:33:25 <shachaf> oh, wait, i didn't even see those four lines
22:34:04 <shachaf> So I don't have a permanent address in a Finnish municipality.
22:34:28 <fizzie> Do you have a Finnish personal ID number?
22:34:47 <fizzie> (I did not know that.)
22:34:49 <ion> shachaf: What is it?
22:35:00 <fizzie> You're not supposed to reveal those!
22:35:19 <shachaf> Are you also not supposed to reveal your birth date?
22:35:22 <ion> I’m sad about that. They’re aking to usernames, not passwords.
22:35:36 <Bike> is this like ssns
22:35:44 <ion> Entities keep using them as passwords.
22:35:48 <ion> bike: s/like // yes
22:35:48 <fizzie> shachaf: I think that's more of a matter of preference. But the latter half is kind of "secret".
22:36:19 <shachaf> fizzie: I thought it was just assigned in order to people born on that day.
22:36:32 <shachaf> Anyway it's only three digits.
22:36:45 <fizzie> It is. It's still "secret".
22:37:05 <shachaf> Anyway, it's not all that fancy.
22:37:18 <shachaf> You and ion also have one.
22:38:11 <fizzie> It's not *terribly* secret, but it's a kind of the default opinion that you're not supposed to publicize it, and entities do keep doing the password thing.
22:38:21 <ion> Not only do entities keep using it as a password, you also have to give it everywhere.
22:38:31 <shachaf> Like when ion asks you on IRC.
22:38:33 <fizzie> E.g. the health provider for the university employees asks for it as a login key.
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22:41:45 <fizzie> There's also a second personal ID number ("SATU", "sähköinen asiointitunnus", approximately "electronic services identifier") that people have, but I doubt many people know theirs. (I don't know mine. But it's what the smart ID cards are keyed to, and so on.)
22:42:02 <fizzie> That one's just random numbers, AIUI.
22:43:18 <fizzie> Or possibly it's an incrementing counter instead.
22:43:39 <ion> I don’t know mine either.
22:43:55 <fizzie> Incidentally, I don't think I've seen any of the new this-millennium "SSN"s yet.
22:44:08 <fizzie> Even though the oldest people having those are, what, 13 years already?
22:44:08 <shachaf> I don't know mine either. Do I have one?
22:44:30 <ion> fizzie: Depends on time dilation.
22:44:49 <shachaf> fizzie: Those use 'A', right?
22:44:49 <fizzie> shachaf: It might be allocated on-demand.
22:45:08 <ion> Using A is just evil.
22:45:18 <ion> They shouldn’t use A imo
22:45:24 <fizzie> They had + for the 1800s, - for 1900s, A for 2000s and presumably it's going to continue with B, C ... for 2100s, 2200s and so on.
22:45:30 <shachaf> imo ion's o is the same as my o
22:45:44 <ion> shochof: truly
22:46:03 <shachaf> ion: there's a channel for that
22:46:13 <fizzie> "Ian" is a perfectly respectable name.
22:46:36 <kmc> fizzie: do you have a national smartcard?
22:47:04 <FireFly> I think we use - except sometimes + is used to explicitly indicate "last century"
22:47:07 <fizzie> kmc: Yes, but it's used very very rarely.
22:47:29 <ion> I wish there was a national, official entity that signed your PGP key for proof of identity and perhaps a small price.
22:47:33 <kmc> you should check with some friends and try to GCD your keys http://smartfacts.cr.yp.to/
22:47:43 <fizzie> kmc: Most people don't have one, and you can't really use it for all that much, and most people don't have card readers anyway.
22:47:59 <ion> I don’t have one.
22:48:18 <kmc> I'm told that British bank cards are smartcards, and if you want to log into your bank website they give you a challenge code and you have to take your smartcard to a shop and put in the code on a reader and get a response (???)
22:48:24 <fizzie> I had one for a while, but it's only valid for... five years, I think.
22:48:31 <kmc> or maybe this is only for sending large amounts of money through the website
22:48:47 <fizzie> All our bank cards are smartcards, but they're not generally used for e-banking.
22:49:19 <ion> We tend to use a username, a personal password and a sheet of short OTPs for banking.
22:49:19 <fizzie> AIUI, many (most?) Swedish banks generally do use theirs, with inexpensive reader thingies distributed to customers.
22:49:55 <ion> The OTPs are used to log in and to confirm transactions.
22:50:12 <ion> and to modify some e-banking settings etc.
22:50:12 <FireFly> fizzie: I believe so, at least the ones I know of do that
22:51:53 <shachaf> oh you're in ##categorytheory
22:53:02 <fizzie> There's some statistics (from a Finnish IT-and-stuff magazine, in a 2007 article) that the government had used 20 million euros for the "electronic ID card" project, and that during 2006, for the tax and social services tasks, people used one in a total of 500 transactions (0.1 % of all), and the costs divided across all e-ID authentications amounted to something like 4000 eur/transaction.
22:53:09 <fizzie> That's kind of ungood.
22:53:51 <fizzie> Anyway, "identify using your e-banking account" has gone to become the de-facto standard for "strong authentication" here.
22:54:14 <fizzie> You can change the university account password with one. And do taxes, and apply for social security benefits.
22:54:57 <fizzie> You could technically log onto some university workstations with the ID card too (they had some card readers), but I don't know anyone who has gotten that to work, and anyway I think that's gone completely bitrotten and/or disabled nowadays.
22:55:17 <oerjan> i _used_ to have a card reader that required inserting my bank card but they discontinued those, so now i have one that you only push a button. (what they _really_ want us to do now is to use a smartphone with an app but i don't have one.)
22:55:22 <FireFly> kmc: what kind of authentication do you use for online payments?
22:55:32 <kmc> lolamerica
22:55:41 <fizzie> "You may set or change the password via the VETUMA service, using either your Internetbank or your electronic ID card issued by the Finnish police. You may use the electronic ID card provided you have a card reader." (password.aalto.fi)
22:55:47 <kmc> if I log in from a different computer than usual, it also tries to email or text me a cod
22:55:59 <oerjan> and long before that i got otp cards
22:56:01 <ion> I wish my bank tried to text me a cod.
22:56:06 <kmc> om nom nom
22:56:24 <kmc> I'd worry about the SMS delivery fees on live fish might
22:56:30 <kmc> s/ might//
22:56:32 <shachaf> i heard Google Nose supports that
22:58:06 <ion> The SMS delivery fees on live fish might indeed.
22:59:10 <fizzie> AIUI, the banks take some amount of money from each identification transaction done using the banking accounts, which is kind of a sore point for non-profit organizations that'd also like to support "strong" authentication.
22:59:30 <fizzie> AIAUI, the Estonian version of the smartcard ID thing is used really pervasively over there.
22:59:56 <fizzie> Like, even for signing contracts between private individuals and such.
23:01:49 <fizzie> I guess there's also the "electronic ID in your mobile phone" which maybe perhaps has been slowly gaining some traction?
23:02:23 * oerjan looked up that sinuhe book and found out that the person translating it to swedish was linus torvalds' grandfather
23:02:43 <fizzie> I think I might have known that factoid once.
23:04:38 <kmc> `run printf 'fun fact 0 = 1\n | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)\n' > wisdom/fun\ fact
23:04:43 <kmc> `? fun fact
23:04:45 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 \ | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
23:04:48 <oerjan> another similar fun fact is that the person who translated the first Foundation book to norwegian was Arne Treholt, a convicted spy. Well unless there are two people by that name.
23:06:13 <shachaf> is a factoid like a typed fact
23:06:30 <shachaf> http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/horizontal+categorification
23:07:04 <shachaf> copumpkin: have you been oidified yet
23:08:49 <oerjan> hm checking that fact seems harder than i though; no article on foundation in the norwegian wikipedia.
23:09:09 <fizzie> Fun translation fact: the same person is responsible for the Finnish translations of both The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and Bored of the Rings.
23:09:30 <fizzie> oerjan: The Second Foundation has hidden all that knowledge.
23:09:42 <oerjan> fizzie: sounds plausible.
23:09:43 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:10:13 <oerjan> unless it was the robots.
23:11:33 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
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23:13:30 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1N; s/ *//' wisdom/fun\ fact
23:13:42 <HackEgo> funfact 0 = 1 \ | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
23:14:17 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1N; s/\n *//' wisdom/fun\ fact
23:14:26 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1| fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
23:14:53 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/|/ |/' wisdom/fun\ fact
23:15:22 <oerjan> i wish there was a simpler way of joining lines together in a pipe.
23:16:02 <oerjan> actually i suppose that doesn't help with -i editing much.
23:16:35 <oerjan> especially with that missing.
23:16:46 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
23:18:01 <fizzie> 'paste' can be useful for that; but it is indeed hard in-place without sponge.
23:18:50 <fizzie> `run (echo foo; echo bar; echo baz) | /usr/bin/paste -s -d '|'
23:19:00 <fizzie> Also HackEgo's bin/paste is kind of a problem for that.
23:19:45 <fizzie> And of course people do use xargs for line-joining.
23:19:58 <shachaf> U+2424 SYMBOL FOR NEWLINE []
23:20:04 <oerjan> `run (echo foo; echo bar; echo baz) | tr '\n' '|' #does this work?
23:20:52 <fizzie> xargs does automatic whitespace normalization, which can be a win.
23:20:53 <fizzie> `run (echo 'foo '; echo ' bar'; echo ' baz ') | xargs
23:21:00 <shachaf> `run (echo foo; echo bar; echo vaz) | tr '\n' ''
23:21:41 <shachaf> `run (echo foo; echo bar; echo vaz) | tr '\n' $'\u2424'
23:22:40 <oerjan> hm right xargs might work
23:24:09 <fizzie> coreutils tr is completely multibyte-braindead, I don't think you really can win there.
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23:38:52 <oerjan> <fizzie> Welp, the blob method (via base64 decoding the canvas.toDataURI string, packing it up in a Blob, and doing URL.createObjectURL for the image) works just fine even for large images. <-- fancy
23:40:27 -!- Bike has joined.
23:41:28 <shachaf> well, blobs have to be large by definition
23:41:41 <oerjan> one is an ordinary boy. the other is a human-eating shapeless mass. together they fight crime!
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23:43:38 <fizzie> Hey, where's funfact? I mean, fungot.
23:44:15 -!- dessos has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:44:16 <oerjan> was here when i arrived.
23:44:20 <tswett_> A machine that computes using "fits": like bits, except that every 1 fit must be preceded in memory by a 0 fit. A fyte is a sequence of thirteen fits, where the first fit is 0. Arithmetic is done using Fibonacci coding.
23:44:37 <oerjan> pinged out 33 minutes ago
23:44:43 <Bike> discussion is illegal
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23:47:42 <oerjan> tswett_: the fact that fyte doesn't take up a constant amount of space might prove inconvenient.
23:48:24 <tswett_> Memory consists of a bunch of fits. A fyte is always thirteen of those.
23:48:42 <tswett_> I suppose it would be fine for a fyte to begin with a 1, as long as the preceding fyte ends with a 0.
23:49:31 <oerjan> otherwise bignums might get tricky
23:51:03 -!- Taneb has joined.
23:51:41 <oerjan> Taneb: ah your sleeping schedule has returned to abnormal?
23:53:28 <oerjan> or possibly your irc client just turned sapient by itself.
23:54:34 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:55:10 <shachaf> kmc: you know the weird backwards non-regular tree, data T f a = L a | B (T f (f a)) ?
23:56:54 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, it's back to a sensible abnormal
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23:59:02 <shachaf> copumpkin: maybe you should drop the co- for today