00:02:41 <Gregor> "Buckle up, boys. This jump leads to space, and that's really high."
00:09:23 <Roujo> So there's no treaty, is there?
00:09:47 <oerjan> there are many treaties, Roujo
00:10:41 <Roujo> Yeah, I was thinking of the Hexham one
00:10:44 <oerjan> btw i may have confused Taneb with the topic. Which ones? of you {is,are} in Lachine again?
00:11:22 <Roujo> Well, I live there. I'm at my parents' now =P
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00:19:49 <Bike> in some topology, maybe
00:25:43 <Bike> oerjan: what sounds better: "topology" or "metric"
00:25:45 <Bike> i rest my case.
00:26:36 <oerjan> Bike: the problem is that the usual topology on a euclidean space doesn't contain enough information to define the usual lines.
00:27:09 <oerjan> while metric is enough to define lines as geodesics.
00:27:39 <Bike> sounds like a boring problem
00:29:52 <oerjan> well, to put it differently, you can find a diffeomorphism from a sphere to itself that (by consequence of the definition) preserves the topology and maps any finite set of points you want to a great circle.
00:30:16 <Bike> i'm seeing a lot of words here that aren't "topology"
00:32:09 <oerjan> ...whatever, you're just joking anyway.
00:33:37 <oerjan> but i'll mention the old chestnut: a topologist is someone who cannot see the difference between his donut and his coffee cup.
00:56:17 <Roujo> oerjan: I haven't seen you say hth for a while... Is there a treaty for that too?
00:56:46 <oerjan> no, there's an irssi script
00:57:13 <Roujo> It prevents you from saying it? =P
00:57:27 <Bike> oerjan is one of those weird people that needs computers to stop him from doing simple things, sometimes.
00:57:30 <oerjan> it censors hth from the end of lines.
00:59:16 <Roujo> When you said there was a script, I assumed it was on his end
00:59:26 <Roujo> À la "you get a kick if you say it"
01:01:05 <oerjan> ...don't give him ideas.
01:01:36 <Roujo> @tell elliott I have an idea for you, but oerjan doesn't want to tell you. Just saying.
01:02:29 <Roujo> @tell elliott Actually, he just doesn't want me to tell you. Although my guess is that he doesn't want to tell you either.
01:02:40 <Roujo> @tell lambdabot Thanks
01:04:33 <Roujo> oerjan: He'll know now, hth
01:05:34 <oerjan> 's ok i'll just threaten with turning off the script.
01:06:14 <oerjan> or maybe he'll kick everyone _else_ instead, because hey, i've got a script
01:06:21 <Roujo> Yeah, that would be nice
01:08:32 <oerjan> WOULD YOU LIKE A KICK OUT THE DOOR
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01:42:12 <zzo38> The temple where my D&D character worships is probably the strangest one. (We didn't find it yet.)
01:46:35 <kmc> hi shachaf
01:46:37 <kmc> how's your day?
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01:54:25 <shachaf> kmc: it looks like Gracenotes and i will be in sf tomorrow??
01:54:31 <kmc> did you plan to run into him?
01:54:33 <kmc> shachaf: oh, cool
01:54:43 <shachaf> maybe he planned to run into me but i doubt it
01:55:15 <kmc> i would not be entirely surprised
01:55:18 <kmc> where were you?
01:56:29 <shachaf> i will feed your coworker's cats soon
01:57:48 <kmc> which coworker?
01:58:21 <shachaf> do you have plans tomorrow of some kind
01:58:33 <shachaf> maybe i could try to bring the previously-mentioned finnish throwing game
01:58:37 <shachaf> though it's fallen apart a bit
01:59:01 <kmc> don't have plans, let's meet up and play this game
01:59:46 <shachaf> i'm not entirely sure whether i'll be able to bring it as it is but i can try
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02:02:02 * shachaf will vanish for a bit in a bit.
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02:57:11 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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03:01:42 <shachaf> you've slisted multiple times in one day
03:01:49 <shachaf> why the preferential treatment?
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03:41:39 <Sgeo> https://github.com/thomastechsoft3d/yesno/blob/master/Main.hs
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04:05:53 <zzo38> Based on the information, how accurate do you think my analysis about the chances of beating the demon are?
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05:11:28 <HackEgo> slist boon: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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07:19:44 <HackEgo> slist strike: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
07:19:59 <shachaf> the day of the bazillion slists
07:20:43 <Bike> a dark day for all of humankind
07:20:46 <zzo38> I suppose that's just the way it is today. What do you want me to do, sue you until you fix it?
07:21:08 <zzo38> Bike: Wrong. Not all of humankind lives in the same timezone.
07:21:20 <shachaf> a dark day for some of humankind
07:21:26 <shachaf> and a dark night for the rest
07:21:39 <shachaf> (but night is usually dark so why mention it?)
07:21:54 <zzo38> Not all the rest are night
07:24:22 <zzo38> There are two things you have to stop being: [1] humanist [2] never knowing what time it is during your entire lifetime
07:25:05 <zzo38> You also have to stop being the third thing.
07:26:13 <Jafet> `addquote <Bike> a dark day for all of humankind <zzo38> Bike: Wrong. Not all of humankind lives in the same timezone. <shachaf> a dark day for some of humankind <zzo38> OK
07:26:17 <HackEgo> 1096) <Bike> a dark day for all of humankind <zzo38> Bike: Wrong. Not all of humankind lives in the same timezone. <shachaf> a dark day for some of humankind <zzo38> OK
07:28:38 <Taneb> I think I prefer the second Attack on Titan theme tune to the first
07:28:39 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the third thing?
07:30:10 <zzo38> I don't know. Maybe I will know in the future, but maybe not.
07:31:13 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you prefer the third to the second?
07:31:27 <Taneb> zzo38, there is not yet a third
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08:54:03 <shachaf> Taneb: please set the addressing-people character to : instead of , thx
08:54:29 <Taneb> The colons make me feel uncomfortable
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09:22:57 <olsner> Taneb: using comma is the third thing
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13:35:34 <HackEgo> carado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:35:54 <carado> thanks for the welcome
13:36:02 <Roujo> You're, well, welcome
13:36:23 <carado> I’m amazed to see that this channel seems very active
13:36:25 <Koen_> warning: entering infinite loop
13:36:59 <Roujo> I'ts been quiet since 03 this morning
13:37:00 <Koen_> you're welcome Roujo
13:40:48 <Koen_> carado: so what do we owe the pleasure to?
13:42:00 <carado> uh, I’ve liked esoteric languages for a while now, I made a probably-already-made lambda-calculus esoteric language interpreter
13:42:30 <carado> http://paste.awesom.eu/kni
13:43:50 <Roujo> So you really were new ^^
13:44:04 <Roujo> I tend to `relcome people without being sure if they're new or not
13:44:09 <carado> well, I’ve been idling for a while now
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13:44:35 <carado> I must have been `relcome’d two or three times now :)
13:45:01 <carado> but I’ve never really spoken, only read the channel from time to time.
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13:46:42 <carado> (mainly because I’m no that comfortable with english, being french)
13:47:35 <Koen_> that's okay, some very nice people are french
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14:18:31 <daakl> Can you create a program which can build, print and calculate integer equations? It must support: 1. Addition 2. Multiplication 3. Division 4. Subtraction 5. Negation 6. Ternary
14:18:50 <daakl> here's a partial example of my Ocaml solution which builds this integer equation. let ans = Unary( Negative, Multi( Value 10, Ternary(Value 10, Greater, Value 12, Value 34, Value 45)));;
14:19:08 <daakl> The program will then calculate and display the integer equation. -450 = -(10 * (10 > 12 ? 34 : 45))
14:24:29 <elliott> yes, because mafingre is banned, so you would be ban evading
14:24:48 <elliott> you have a very similar IP (and the same ISP) as lekrel yesterday, who ignored this question
14:24:58 <elliott> but I suppose your response is basically confirmation in itself, unless you actually deny it?
14:25:11 <daakl> elliott: What is a similar IP supposed to mean?
14:25:26 <daakl> what was mafingres ISP?
14:25:44 <elliott> it means that, combined with very similar behaviour (especially dodging questions about who you are), I'm pretty confident you are the same person
14:26:09 <elliott> mafingre's ISP was not identical to yours; however, it was in the same country, and you may be using some form of mobile internet from the looks of the whois result
14:26:10 <daakl> elliott: Similar to what?
14:26:29 <daakl> elliott: Ok, I am in the same country with 22 million other people
14:26:33 <elliott> but I'm wondering why you wouldn't just say "no". do you deny that you are mafingre? yes or no
14:26:51 <daakl> elliott: I was lekrel from yesterday
14:26:59 <daakl> But I do not know who mafingre is
14:27:11 <elliott> ok, but do you deny that you are the same person as them?
14:27:26 <daakl> And I ask "Does it matter" because you asked exactly the same question yesterday
14:28:11 <elliott> well, I'd generally expect someone who doesn't know who mafingre is, and isn't them, to have an easier time of sending a message like "no, I am not the same person that used the nick 'mafingre' in the past" to the channel
14:28:52 <daakl> I have never even heard of a mafingre
14:29:06 <daakl> First time in this channel was yesterday
14:29:29 <elliott> ok. I don't really believe you, but ok.
14:30:12 <Koen_> so back to your question
14:30:17 <daakl> Whatever floats your boat, now back on topic
14:30:51 <elliott> what you said wasn't actually on-topic here, to be pedantic, but ok.
14:30:53 <Koen_> the hardest part in making a calculator is usually parsing the expression
14:31:09 <daakl> I did my version in oCaml
14:31:12 <Koen_> and your program doesn't have to do that, since the expression is already parsed
14:32:29 <daakl> http://pastebin.com/EaXkL3nt
14:32:49 <Koen_> daaki: try the opposite: a program that reads an expression like -(10 * (10 > 12 ? 34 : 45)), and computes the result
14:34:04 <Koen_> also your ternary actually expects five operands so it should be called pentary:p
14:34:34 <Koen_> for instance you can't use it to write stuff like (false ? 3 : 4)
14:34:53 <Koen_> or (0 ? 3 : 4) if you're using integers as booleans as it does in C
14:36:01 <Koen_> in which case <, >, <=, >=, = and != would be arithmetic operators which always yield 0 (for false) or 1 (for true)
14:47:29 <nooodl> i'm bored enough for this apparently http://codepad.org/KYMwwi5y
14:49:07 <Koen_> that's pretty board nooodl
14:49:25 <nooodl> oops i forgot to rename it Pentary
14:49:31 <Koen_> you should go to the movies!
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15:40:47 <Koen_> truth be told I'm bored as well
15:40:49 <Koen_> http://sprunge.us/REDX?ocaml
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16:10:36 <zzo38> What question now?
16:12:00 <zzo38> Because I don't know what that is.
16:13:50 <quintopia> but i've already told you about it before
16:14:13 <zzo38> Well, it is mainly the reason, anyways. Other reason is because I forgot.
16:14:36 <quintopia> that's okay. i've reminded you now.
16:16:59 <Jafet> nooodl: http://codepad.org/GZdBEwxq
16:17:14 <zzo38> No, I still don't remember.
16:19:56 <quintopia> zzo38: have you heard about arkeon?
16:20:03 <zzo38> quintopia: From you.
16:20:22 <quintopia> zzo38: oh okay. just making sure you don't forget.
16:21:31 <zzo38> That doesn't make me remember if I am unaware what that means!
16:28:42 <quintopia> zzo38: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fr.hyperfiction.arkeon&hl=en&referrer=utm_source%3Dgoogle%26utm_medium%3Dorganic%26utm_term%3Darkeon
16:29:32 <zzo38> Maybe that is why. I don't have Google Apps in my computer.
16:29:34 <Koen_> Arkeon is a fast-paced strategy game influenced by traditionnal asbtract games like Chess or Go.
16:29:37 <Koen_> now that sounds cool
16:29:48 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it does.
16:33:05 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkeon
16:33:30 <zzo38> OK I will look in Wikipedia later perhaps, not right now
16:33:47 <zzo38> Right now I am playing a Pokemon card game
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16:49:31 <zzo38> You should not necessarily knock out your opponent's cards. I sometimes win by not knocking out opponent's cards when I have a choice.
16:50:46 <Koen_> is that like in morris where winning is usually easier if you *don't* capture all the opponent's pawns?
16:52:47 <zzo38> You can win in one of three ways: * Knock out six opponent's pokemons * Leave your opponent with no cards in play * Leave your opponent with no cards in their draw pile
16:55:17 <zzo38> Sometimes opponent's cards can help you, such as powers that affect both sides, or a card that cannot attack or retreat, if it is activated they cannot do much. Also, if they already have five bench pokemons then they cannot play another one. This can be used to stall, or to gain position until you do have a better advantage to knock out opponent's cards.
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16:59:10 <zzo38> If your opponent knocks out five of your cards and you knock out none of theirs, they will still lose if they run out of cards in their draw pile before they can knock out one more of your cards. (I ave won in this way before.)
17:01:05 <Sgeo_> I literally work in the headquarters of a Fortune 500 company
17:01:09 <Sgeo_> That feels weird somehow.
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17:04:52 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Are you sure?
17:05:22 <Sgeo_> Sure that I work in the headquarters of a Fortune 500 company, or sure that it feels weird? I'm sure of the former, at least.
17:05:32 <Sgeo_> It probably shouldn't feel weird.
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21:31:50 <Taneb> Quick I need a 2009 internet joke
21:32:16 <oerjan> i have 2009 problems but the internet ain't one. right now, anyway.
21:33:36 <Bike> chuck norris invented every internet joke.
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22:06:41 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BANCStar_programming_language
22:06:54 <augur> from charles stross (@cstross)
22:08:05 <oerjan> bancstar has been discussed here before
22:09:53 <augur> oerjan: i only just saw it in his tweetstream
22:10:03 <augur> baffling that something like that exists for serious
22:11:51 <zzo38> See if anyone can figure out the example with only the information given.
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22:17:05 <Sgeo> Is there a name for this logic gate: 01,10,11=0;00=1
22:17:17 <Sgeo> I implemented that in AW years ago calling it NAND, but I think I was wrong
22:20:56 <Koen_> Sgeo: "a NAND b" means "not (a and b)", so that's "either a is false or b is false"
22:21:44 <Koen_> yours is "they're both false" and that's "not (a or b)" which is a NOR b; or you could remember it as "neither a NOR b"
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22:23:11 <augur> who needs names, just use the truth signature!
22:23:24 <augur> 00 = 1, 01 = 0, 10 = 0, 11 = 0
22:23:28 <augur> therefore the signature is 1000!
22:23:41 <augur> actually itd probably be better to make the signature 0001
22:25:07 <Taneb> augur, if you read NOR backwards, you're not going to think "Who the hell is RON"
22:25:08 <Sgeo> NOR still proves that any logic gate can be built, right?
22:25:18 <Taneb> NOR and NAND are both universal
22:25:35 <augur> Taneb: im pretty sure i will
22:25:41 <augur> we ARE in #esoteric, after all!
22:25:43 <oerjan> they're also dual to each other, so if one is the other has to be
22:25:50 <augur> its in the job description to be obnoxiously obtuse!
22:25:53 <Taneb> augur, here's a hint, RON stands for Re-Open Nominations
22:26:17 <augur> oerjan: thats interesting about duality
22:28:04 <Sgeo> It doesn't prove fsm though, right? Still need a memory mechanism??
22:28:33 <oerjan> what does that even mean
22:29:25 <Koen_> Sgeo: if I understand your question right, it's kind of like if you were asking "does addition prove mathematics are a finite-state machine?"
22:30:35 <Sgeo> I'm thinking about Active Worlds, and wondering what I need to do to prove that a finite-state machine can be built.
22:31:19 <Koen_> building one would be the most explicit way to prove it
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22:44:01 <Fiora> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mightyno9/mighty-no-9 geez this is going fast
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22:55:28 <Bike> Sgeo: i'm a bit scared to learn what you could think NOR universality has to do with finite state machines.
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23:06:54 <Sgeo> Can you make memory out of logic gates?
23:07:22 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_random-access_memory ?
23:07:41 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_(electronics) I guess
23:08:20 <Bike> depends on how you're thinking of them. often when dealing with "logic gates" you're working timelessly
23:08:48 <Bike> but yeah, sr latch is easy.
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23:11:36 <kmc> Señor Latch
23:12:10 <Bike> i thought "social revolutionary" because i'm the wurst.
23:12:49 <kmc> currywurst??
23:14:01 <Bike> Sgeo: nor being universal means that you can compute any truth table (i.e. function {0,1}^n-> {0,1} for any n) with some network of NOR gates, just to be clear. says nothing about timing
23:14:55 <Bike> n >= 1, i guess
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23:31:31 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:32:54 <Bike> https://twitter.com/museumofcomm/status/374290121610108929/photo/1
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23:46:32 <oerjan> the eternal `slist september
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00:05:15 <zzo38> This is one kind of card I made up for Pokemon card game: Put any number of cards from your hand and/or trash with your side cards (you are not allowed to exceed six side cards).
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00:40:16 <zzo38> One of my Pokemon card puzzles was made up by FireFly (the rest are made up by me). I would like if someone else can make too.
00:43:27 <zzo38> Different TCG can be compared; such as that, Pokemon card is a more positional-oriented game than Magic: the Gathering, it seems. Magic: the Gathering is other (I don't know what words to use). If you have played these games, tell me of your opinion of it?
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01:50:00 <kmc> shachaf and I played mölkky in the park
01:50:04 <kmc> it was fun
01:50:07 <kmc> we are not very good at it
01:50:27 <kmc> sometimes dogs would come by and steal the pieces and change the state of play
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02:15:05 <zzo38> Someone said Magic: the Gathering is a more action-sequence-oriented game.
02:16:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is more positional because the play depends on the position of active/bench cards, attached energy cards, sleep/confuse/paralyze poison state, number of side cards remaining, number of cards in draw pile, sacrifices, defense, etc
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02:20:15 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering involves an entirely different set of tactics.
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03:57:01 <Sgeo> There's a property that Active Worlds and Cloud Party share that Second Life lacks, and I'm not sure what to call it. I almost want to say statelessness, but that's not quite accurate
03:57:48 <Sgeo> In both AW and CP, you can write scripts. AW scripts are client-side, CP scripts are server-side. But they both have the property that, whatever such a script does, it isn't permanent, it can always be reverted instantly to what was actually built in the world
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03:58:07 <Sgeo> In Second Life, scripts can move objects permanently, and they don't have an 'origin' location
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04:30:13 <zzo38> Do you know the different methods of calculating the probability of hitting yourself with the "DIGGER" card (in the Pokemon card game)? I used one method and someone else used a different method, although both work. Such thing may apply to other things relating to probability, too? (DIGGER: Starting with you, both players take turns tossing a coin, until tails. Does 1 point of damage to the active pokemon card of whoever got tails.)
04:30:33 <coppro> Enumerating all the different methods seems like folly
04:32:38 <zzo38> I mean I just want to see what methods different people are using. What method did you use?
04:35:28 <zzo38> (My own method was to solve P=1/2+(1-P)/2, although someone else used the infinite series instead.)
04:36:06 <zzo38> Did you use one of these, or something else?
04:39:52 <coppro> if P is the probability of hitting your own pokemon
04:40:34 <coppro> since you have three outcomes for the first two flips: you hit your pokemon (1/2), you hit the other pokemon (1/4), you try again
04:46:24 <zzo38> I didn't think of that way, but I can understand it now
04:53:37 <zzo38> I (partially) made up a glossary of Pokemon card puzzle.
04:59:56 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:00:45 <zzo38> There are a few tactics/strategies/situations that I don't know what they would be called, though.
05:01:09 <Bike> the eternal `slist of the spotless mind
05:03:43 <zzo38> I used some of the terms from chess, although there are some without corresponding something in the other game.
05:03:53 <shachaf> olist yesterday and olist tomorrow. never olist today.
05:09:54 <zzo38> Please see if I missed anything important or made any other mistakes.
05:11:01 <coppro> zzo38: my approach is similar to the approach used to determine the running time of infinitely recursive algorithms
05:11:14 <coppro> s/infinitely/arbitrarily/
05:11:55 <zzo38> coppro: O, that is what it is used for? What is my approach called?
05:13:18 <coppro> zzo38: I'm not quite sure; I think they work out to roughly the same thing
05:14:56 <zzo38> Well, you do get the same answer, and they are both the algebraic solutions.
05:17:49 <Bike> huh, the chinese south-pointing carriage wasn't magnetic
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05:49:02 <zzo38> I made up a designation "communist hand" for certain poker hands. As far as I know, these are all possible communist hands: * A royal flush. * An ace-high straight without three cards of the same suit. * Four of a kind and an ace. * Four aces and a king.
05:51:06 <zzo38> Can you see the pattern, and do you know if I made a mistake?
05:54:22 <coppro> those two questions should never be asked together
05:54:33 <zzo38> coppro: You are probably correct.
05:54:38 <zzo38> I can understand why.
06:00:23 <zzo38> I have thought of it and I think I have not made a mistake. There is a real pattern having to do with Texas Hold'em. Can you see it? (Maybe 'communist hand' isn't the best name; if you have a better name you can tell me)
06:09:02 <Bike> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12148.html
06:23:18 <zzo38> Someone else figured it out!
06:28:24 <kmc> is it a hand such that if the table hand is this, everyone will split the pot evenly?
06:28:41 <kmc> because it's necessarily better than any hand you could make using private cards
06:29:46 <kmc> it's a pretty good name I think
06:30:08 <zzo38> Yes, I think so too (although I am not 100% sure)
06:30:31 <Bike> i wanna see what a mutualist hand is
06:30:51 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know; make up something if you have an idea.
06:39:56 <zzo38> If you know any poker players, ask them if they can figure out the definition of "communist hand" from the enumeration of all of them like I have given.
06:41:23 <zzo38> It isn't so difficult, but that doesn't mean you can figure out right away; some people still make some mistakes when trying to figure it out.
06:45:41 <kmc> I got it when you mentioned it was for hold 'em specifically
06:46:03 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose that is the hint.
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07:22:58 <zzo38> Is it difficult if that is not mentioned?
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09:14:37 <Taneb> I am really happy right now
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12:51:30 <fizzie> Should've made a video response to that office-window timelapse; there's been lots of groups of students wandering around, I think they're having some sort of orientation activities for new people there.
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13:10:06 <Taneb> "In this episode, they fill up their motorbike with gas!"
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13:29:56 <fizzie> Well, there was also both sunshine and rain.
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18:20:24 <zt> Is it possible that turing-complete languages need at least 5 rules? (One of the functional complete set [NAND,NOR], which are 4 rules each) plus a halting rule?
18:21:29 <zt> A rule 'converting' a number of inputs to an output or state
18:21:50 <Bike> that's very vague. anyway, sk calculus has two transition rules, none of which are "a halting rule".
18:23:29 <zt> I will read that first, thank you
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19:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> zt, you seem to be very caught up on bit operations; turing complete languages are much broader than that
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19:24:05 <zt> Phantom_Hoover: That is true :/ As I am not yet in a university I try to use things I can easily understand, it is just a great thing to think about
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19:28:16 <fungot> olsner: cool hair.... w.t.f lol...... zac efrons gay located on my b-day. and even if the media bombed our minds with anti-american rhetoric and make a solid max payne
19:46:30 <olsner> fungot: how much better can you do?
19:49:09 <kmc> shachaf: should I make my own mölkky-game
19:49:22 <Bike> "Prior to Volume 17, 1975 this journal was published as Kybernetik." i feel this change was a mistake
19:49:46 <kmc> $60 seems "a bit steep" even with the nice wood carrying box
19:50:57 <Bike> price for what, a solid max payne?
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19:56:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: helloerjan: not found
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20:00:19 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: kool song, incredible video. it's no longer about the passengers to know. they're hallucinations from the album, going to crash ( with jaybad of course there was nothing supernatural in max payne
20:00:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
20:00:38 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
20:00:45 <fungot> olsner: people, vi is from hell with it we've resigned ourselves to its very core. this means it is being lost unless the application for which the resource manager uses in some article al writes:
20:01:03 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: in the original version of " modern ui", " who ?am ?i" ( " not a bug report), but without binaries ( v only) or filename, one doesn't respond at all.
20:01:16 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think it may have been me. I apologize in case it was
20:01:19 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
20:01:32 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance, can also be used freely and as to being in a fright. " oh, don't go on and on about
20:02:43 <zzo38> Do you know that limitations of Famicom and other systems can be made into a core gameplay mechanics?
20:03:23 <Bike> i knownothing.
20:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder what would happen if you made the only fungot dataset fungot, kept all the other commands, and made him continuously update the dataset
20:03:36 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov
20:03:41 -!- zt has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0/20130803193343]).
20:04:12 <Bike> fungot is such a polite young bot. always helps me with my groceries and assassinations
20:04:12 <fungot> Bike: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week, i fnord kara to hold me until i fell over, with much ado. your sister is the better part made mercie, i should think at least, that is expressions which have not been able, to assume responsibilities. he went on, " the conclusion is, then thou, the greatest soldier, de. she wanna be friends, his sta
20:04:58 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover:, so i'd have to consider that although the reduction in actual transportation section from former friend lives, their door had my computer with full u+ support" then they both bowed low. just keep the safe or tub and emptied it does. perhaps you will be thrust with both arms; the blade broke the surface than that acted on by like causes inducing similar modifications. with lynx, she never does
20:05:14 <olsner> fungot: how were you going to kill Phantom_Hoover? and why?
20:05:14 <fungot> olsner: and it's self-modifying techniques." stop immobilizes and disables you. in these bones, i shall return! by the way, the wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace?
20:07:26 <myndzi> anybody about know something about state machine design?
20:07:51 <myndzi> in particular, i'm trying to identify if the particular thing i'm doing would benefit from that model, but i don't know it in any detail
20:08:32 <Bike> well what's the thing you're doing.
20:08:45 <myndzi> i'm trying to find a nicer way of dealing with problems in a stateful manner.. that is, i've got a number of steps i want to accomplish, and various error cases that can happen along the way
20:09:01 <myndzi> and the error cases may set off their own group of steps, after which i want to go back 'where i was'
20:09:12 <myndzi> various parts may need retries or something like that
20:09:18 <myndzi> which is what made me think of it
20:09:37 <myndzi> currently it's kind of a promise-based fluid interface and it doesn't play nice with looping style actions
20:10:10 <Bike> is the state after a retry identical to the similar statewithout a retry?
20:10:37 <myndzi> if i want to give up after x retries
20:10:59 <Bike> yeah, that's mildly gross to do as a regular old state machine diagram.
20:11:15 <myndzi> i kind of suspected as much
20:11:38 <myndzi> it was fairly nice until i got into error cases :P
20:11:53 <Bike> just never run into errors. simple
20:12:32 <myndzi> promises may still be .. promising .. lol
20:12:41 <myndzi> but not in the way this thing is structured
20:22:41 <shachaf> 13:20 <edwardk> rust lacks any ability to talk about higher kinds
20:22:41 <shachaf> 13:20 <edwardk> so it generally is too crippled for me to write any of my kind of code in
20:30:03 <Taneb> Man, I thought I was going insane because I remembered shachaf saying that but I couldn't see it
20:30:09 <Taneb> Turns out I was just scrolled up a little
20:31:01 <shachaf> turns out Taneb was one pgdn short of a full scrollback
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20:40:09 <Taneb> shachaf, did you ping the rusty chap you ought to for Rust?
20:41:01 <zzo38> I put a "Kjugobe's Trigger" spell into my computer (which would be the next step from "Kjugobe's Timer" and "Kjugobe's Notification", I suppose)
20:41:49 <Taneb> zzo38, it could be betweeen Kjugobe's Safety and Kjugobe's Muzzle
20:42:14 <zzo38> Taneb: No it shouldn't, at least, in alphabetical order it shouldn't.
20:42:40 <zzo38> (Although I am not talking about alphabetical order with the other two spells, either)
20:42:59 <Taneb> zzo38, can you redesign firearms so that the components are in alphabetical order?
20:44:02 <zzo38> I don't think so; I don't know a lot about firearms.
20:44:46 <Taneb> shachaf, there is a person in this channel, who has significantly more power to fix the Rust situation than the rest of us
20:44:57 <Taneb> I do not want to make a redundant ping
20:45:11 <Taneb> But his nick begins with k and ends with c and has an m in the middle
20:45:55 <zzo38> (Some spells can notify the caster. This spell allows you to modify it so that instead of notifying the caster, it will have trigger a different effect.)
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20:49:36 <zzo38> Do you think Famicompo ought to have a designation for the use of software PCM?
21:00:17 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aar04alxLf4
21:08:36 <Taneb> STARTING UNIVERSITY JUST GOT SCARIER
21:08:39 <Taneb> The number of students coming to York this year has been higher than forecast. In order to meet this unexpected increase in accommodation applications, the University has entered into an agreement with a private Halls of Residence."
21:09:09 <Bike> like, they're contracting out dorms?
21:10:25 <olsner> private Hells of Residence, sounds nice
21:11:28 <Bike> well are you even going to be in one of those dorms
21:11:44 <Taneb> I'm slightly panicking
21:12:08 <olsner> better play it safe and stay in hexham
21:12:09 <Bike> look, i live in a dorm administered by the school. i assure you that it can't really get that much worse anyway
21:12:29 <coppro> my school is renting a residence from teh school next door
21:12:34 <coppro> since we got too many students and they didn't get enough
21:12:43 <Taneb> I'm being given the opportunity to book into this place at a university-subsidized rate
21:12:51 <Taneb> (because the university guaranteed accommodation)
21:13:01 <coppro> Taneb: that sounds a lot like my school!
21:13:18 <olsner> afaik no universities here provide their own dorms or accomodation, you pretty much have to get an apartment like normal people
21:16:06 <Taneb> olsner, it's still an unexpected hurdle
21:16:56 <Bike> violent takeover
21:17:01 <Bike> alt. squatting
21:17:02 <olsner> usually you try to get one before the first year
21:17:53 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, single rooms
21:20:15 <Taneb> I'm in Corridors of Residence
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21:32:19 <HackEgo> slist 6.6.2: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:35:27 <Sgeo> Really more like 6.6.i2
21:36:07 <coppro> I could have beat you to it!
21:36:27 <Sgeo> I'm not even using any notifier right now
21:37:18 <oerjan> combining `*lists and notifiers is cheating
21:37:35 <coppro> sgeo was using a notifier for ages
21:37:43 <zzo38> How? What notifiers are you refering to anyways?
21:38:03 <Sgeo> A program that tells me almost immediately when Homestuck updates
21:38:44 <zzo38> How does that work? Does it use RSS? Does it use a message send directly to your computer? Does it use IRC?
21:38:52 <Sgeo> Also, does Facebook count as a notifier for olist? Usually, when there's an update, I get Facebook notifications about people liking my page's status
21:39:31 <Sgeo> zzo38: Well, I had several at one point. One on my phone that presumably checked RSS, and one that I made in another channel that checked ETag of the RSS feed
21:39:47 <Taneb> zzo38, there are many different notifiers, I've seen all three of those strategies
21:40:36 <zzo38> Well, you could make a program that notifies when receiving a IRC message starting with "`slist" or whatever, if it help
21:41:20 <Taneb> zzo38, that's an abomination
21:41:40 <zzo38> Maybe to you it is.
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21:43:08 <Taneb> It takes all the fun out of it
21:44:05 <oerjan> zzo38: it means that when logreading i have to search the logs for more than my nick, which is inconvenient.
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21:45:02 <zzo38> oerjan: If you do it manually, then surely. But depending exactly what you are looking for, it might or might not help.
21:45:41 <oerjan> zzo38: it's what i do whenever i log on irc to see if someone pinged me since i left.
21:47:43 <zzo38> Of course it is a HackEgo program; you can make it do whatever you want it to do (if saying your name is all that is necessary, then you can do that). Sometimes HackEgo is unavailable though, so in those cases it may help to still filter directly on the command
21:48:52 <zzo38> (I have used "`danddreclist" when HackEgo was unavailable, although when it was available again someone told me to do it again so I did; of course I might not be on, though, so don't expect me to necessarily do that)
21:51:48 <quintopia> zzo38: can you add me to the bdsmreclist
21:52:07 <zzo38> quintopia: No, because I don't know of any such thing.
21:52:39 <quintopia> zzo38: well, when such a thing becomes available, please add me
21:53:49 <zzo38> Set up the notifier in your own computer if you are interested, or add yourself on. I won't necessarily be on or remember it.
21:53:51 * oerjan swats quintopia -----###
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21:54:14 <Bike> we'll have to set up a bdsmreclistlist for updates on the existential status of bdsmreclist.
21:54:35 <quintopia> zzo38: i think oerjan wants to be on the list too, thanks
21:55:20 * oerjan hits quintopia with the saucepan ===\__/
22:04:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
22:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> `run echo "<oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits" > bsdmreclist
22:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover> `run echo "* oerjan swats quintopia -----###" >> bdsmreclist
22:08:22 <HackEgo> bdsmreclist \ bi \ bsdmreclist \ \ bin: \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ cat \ CaT \ cats \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ erflist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ ga
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22:13:31 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i have no idea what you are talking about
22:18:46 <oerjan> alternately get treatment for dyslexia
22:21:13 <olsner> although if you're right half/some the time, maybe alternately getting treatment is what you want
22:22:52 * oerjan is reminded of the house episode with a painter whose paintings made no sense but only in some months.
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23:11:28 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:12:43 <oerjan> hm better than average mezzacotta today, i think
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23:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Death-related_lists
23:42:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how they felt the number of death-related lists was getting out of hand
23:42:59 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_of_lists
23:44:40 <Bike> still kind of sad they deleted the worst article, "list of lists of fictional things"
23:48:37 <Bike> is there a category:life-related lists, or should i sue wikipedia for antinatalism
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00:08:25 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_which_do_not_list_themselves sort of disappointing
00:08:42 <kmc> what would bdsmreclist be...
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00:42:49 <oerjan> finally, today's girl genius update. (also, a good one.)
00:43:41 <oerjan> shachaf: it updates too regularly to have a list. but lately unfortunately not on the hour.
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00:47:45 <kmc> when would it update
00:48:38 <oerjan> kmc: don't you know when you update? i guess you might get a memory wipe or something.
00:50:10 <kmc> I keep declining the updates because I've rooted my own brain and don't want to get locked out again
00:50:22 <shachaf> it was updating for a while until you moved to sf
00:50:28 <shachaf> now i don't get updates :'(
00:51:39 <Gracenotes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_of_lists
00:51:46 <Gracenotes> <!-- Please do NOT include: [[Lists of lists]], or [[List of lists of lists]], they just redirect here. -->
00:53:51 <shachaf> Gracenotes: too bad i'm editing in wysisyg mode so i don't see that comment
00:54:40 <oerjan> ooh seriously bad side effect of that
00:54:53 <Gracenotes> well, you're not alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_lists_of_lists&action=history&year=2013&month=-1&tagfilter=visualeditor
00:58:43 <oerjan> hm the prev link in tagfiltered history gives the difference to the previous tagged one
01:01:35 <kmc> shachaf: I don't get it...
01:01:40 <Gracenotes> getting rid of oldid in the query will fix that
01:03:30 <shachaf> kmc: oh, kmclist was about job updates
01:08:59 <FreeFull> Would it be possible to make a typed brainfuck?
01:09:09 <Bike> noep it's impossible
01:11:08 <myndzi> everything's the same type :D
01:12:41 <oerjan> looks like the comment bug has been noticed long ago but not prioritized enough, but is now being discussed again. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49603
01:14:30 <shachaf> I'll just get oerjan to do my edits for me.
01:14:55 <oerjan> you think this has worked great so far?
01:15:14 <shachaf> Worked great for me, that is.
01:15:32 <oerjan> well i guess no worse than if you hadn't asked.
01:16:11 <shachaf> usually it's worked out in my experience
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02:44:19 <zzo38> Which characters is a program using literate comment style more likely to start with, do you think? I think that first, lines starting with # are skipped, and then spaces are skipped and if the next character is % or < then it is literate style. Is there others?
02:47:18 <zzo38> You can use a AWK program to convert bird-style code into plain code.
02:47:57 <zzo38> Here is the AWK program: sub(/^>/,"")
02:47:58 <oerjan> haskell also has the \begin{code} style
02:48:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, there is that style too (and you can mix them in the same file, which might be useful). Haskell does, but other programs might not.
02:51:08 <oerjan> the haskell 2010 report says " It is not advisable to mix these two styles in the same file."
02:51:56 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it may not be advisable, although you can do so. It isn't normally useful, but there can be useful in a few cases possibly.
02:52:36 <zzo38> Some extensions of AWK that are implemented I don't find very good, although there are some things I would find useful but aren't implemented. These include a \ operator to match parts of the previously used regular expression as a boolean, that matched; another would be a PARSER special block for parsing input in a way other than the normal way (and then have a "yield" command to yield records for the rest of the program to match)
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02:55:28 <zzo38> I have read about some .lhs syntax highlighter that tries to guess whether bird-style or LaTeX-style is used by the first line of the file, although I don't think that is best idea; better would be to just support both. (I have some bird-style files starting with % and the syntax highlighter incorrectly tries to parse it as a LaTeX-style file)
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02:58:32 <zzo38> The program is Pygments. "the style is autodetected: if the first non-whitespace character in the source is a backslash or percent character, LaTeX is assumed, else Bird"
03:11:27 <zzo38> /^\\end\{code\}$/{x=0};x||sub(/^>/,"");/^\\begin\{code\}$/{x=1}
03:11:42 <zzo38> Now it work with Bird-style and LaTeX-style.
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03:22:00 <Sgeo> "Real WTF is using console.log without testing for it's existence. "
03:22:31 <Sgeo> Although this is not a problem at work, fortunately for my sanity
03:22:33 <zzo38> What would you think are good features to have in a hardware programming language?
03:22:36 <Bike> internet explorer more like internet suckass dumb stupidheader
03:23:28 <shachaf> Bike: wow, Sgeo and you sure showed it
03:23:58 <Bike> IE will think again before being stupid and suck!! now it knows it's got a bad ass staring it down
03:24:23 <kmc> MICRO$HAFT WINBLOWZE
03:25:02 <kmc> `log VENEREAL
03:25:23 <kmc> well anyway
03:25:33 <HackEgo> 2010-10-05.txt:21:44:04: <cpressey> a language doesn't travel halfway across the globe without picking up a few venereal diseases
03:25:50 <Sgeo> It's two seconds to make a console in any browser that does nothing if there is no real console, but why should this even be necessary?
03:26:41 <zzo38> I have written some things (too much incomplete, though) about idea I have, which I called "HWPL" and has many significant differences from Verilog and VHDL. One is there are no numeric types; only vectors. Another is that numbers are in binary notation by default and you need a prefix to specify decimal and hex.
03:30:12 <Gracenotes> shachaf: I purchased more things I don't need today
03:30:45 <shachaf> Gracenotes: why put off until tomorrow things that you can buy today
03:30:46 <Bike> lose all your money
03:31:06 <shachaf> http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html
03:31:08 <zzo38> Another difference is that vectors can have some bits input and some output (and even analog), you can have a CONNECT command similar to Verilog's "assign" but you can put the output on the other side (such as if it is not originally known which one is output), names that aren't keywords have a sigil prefix, and many others too
03:31:11 <Gracenotes> although, chances are, I do need a front bike light
03:31:23 <Gracenotes> I haven't needed it so far, and I have avoided getting killed at night so far
03:38:03 <Gracenotes> I'm doing an inventory of all of the things I might ever want to conceivably plug in for using electricity
03:38:19 <Bike> how many of them are firearms
03:38:21 <Gracenotes> hopefully this will guide my choice of a power strip between cost and convenience
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03:47:49 <kmc> zzo38: it should allow the user to draw timing diagrams like so ┌──┐
03:48:32 <kmc> i'll see myself out
03:50:06 <shachaf> imo commutative timing diagrams
03:51:47 <zzo38> kmc: I think I understand what you mean even though it is written wrongly
04:00:42 <zzo38> shachaf: What is that?
04:02:12 <zzo38> kmc: What I do not know, is what exactly to do with such timing diagrams, anyways, though
04:03:10 <zzo38> Usually you should write the program to implement the correct timing, rather than explicitly writing the diagram (although it may be a text format that, once all macros are expanded, can convert between text and diagram format)
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04:15:55 <SirCmpwn> what's that one thing that wraps esoteric programs and makes syscalls depending on what they output to stdout
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04:18:16 <zzo38> Hopefully the information is available in esolang wiki, though.
04:24:09 <kmc> currently listening to a band named HṚṢṬA
04:24:12 <kmc> they're pretty good!
04:31:36 <Gracenotes> based on their top song by YT search ranking
04:32:08 <zzo38> What tie breaker system do you prefer in Pokemon card?
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04:34:00 <oerjan> so what are some good unicode band names
04:36:41 <shachaf> 101FC PHAISTOS DISC SIGN WAVY BAND [<U+101FC>]
04:36:58 <Gracenotes> sadly, not The Artist Formerly Known as Prince
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05:18:47 <kmc> Gracenotes: yeah similar and a lot of the same people are involved
05:20:25 <kmc> olsner: KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT
05:21:44 <zzo38> I have added some entries into the glossary of Pokemon card puzzles; see if it is good now. Can you please look, make comment/question/suggest/complaint of it?
05:21:49 <kmc> I don't think there is any band named Duff's Device but there is one named Too Close For Missiles (or at least a song)
05:22:38 <zzo38> Then make up some band named Duff's Device, especially if there are people in there named Duff
05:23:10 <zzo38> Pokemon card glossary is: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/terminology.txt
05:23:39 <kmc> membership in GY!BE overlaps with many other bands including HṚṢṬA, Set Fire To Flames, Black Ox Orkestar, and {A,The,Thee} Silver Mt. Zion Memorial Orchestra [& Tra-La-La Band [with Choir]]
05:26:24 <kmc> Efrim Menuck and bandmate Jessica Moss have a child named Ezra Steamtrain Moss Menuck
05:31:04 <zzo38> I have written something about some society (and corresponding prestige class) for use in Dungeons&Dragons game, so they can put some NPCs of this one and they would have more advantages over me and over others I may try to protect, so this makes it more difficult game.
05:32:47 <zzo38> kmc: Well, I think that should be their proper name, considering the circumstances
05:44:15 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:44:29 <Sgeo> (That one an IRC notifier told me)
05:45:53 <zzo38> What IRC notifier is that?
05:46:17 <Sgeo> The one I wrote
05:46:29 <Sgeo> Apparently it has a memory leak though, so the operator doesn't operate it 24/7
05:46:35 <Sgeo> I should attempt to fix it at some point
05:47:30 <zzo38> Should there be a sequence number or something like that after some `*list command?
05:47:56 <Sgeo> Just something to identify which update it is would be typical
05:48:06 <Sgeo> This one would probably be HOLYSHIT, but the last would be HOLYSHIT too
05:48:52 <zzo38> (My own `danddreclist uses session numbers afterward; others might have other sequence numbers though)
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06:19:55 <zzo38> Can't you use numbers (or dates, or filenames, or whatever) instead of "HOLYSHIT"?
06:35:57 <fizzie> There's a natural sequence number for slist (it's at 916), but I for one can never remember which was the last number I saw.
06:36:08 <fizzie> (Then again, I don't pay any attention to slist either, because RSS.)
06:36:38 <fizzie> Also, it's kind of funny how all the local news media are full of the Nokia thing.
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06:39:51 <zzo38> What Nokia thing is that?
06:40:23 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of melody? l8 e4gc'fac'g ^bd'fgfed e4gc'fac'g ^1 (There is chord too, and it is longer than just this, too)
06:40:37 <fizzie> Microsoft just bought most of Nokia's phone-making business and patents for 5.44 billion euros.
06:40:49 <fizzie> Well, subject to regulatory approval and all that usual stuff.
06:44:29 <HackEgo> olist (916): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
06:44:33 <shachaf> (This one's from my sister.)
06:46:09 <fizzie> Oh, did I confuse slist and olist? How bad.
06:46:13 <fizzie> There are so many lists.
06:59:00 <kmc> @addquote <zzo38> Do you like this kind of melody? l8 e4gc'fac'g ^bd'fgfed e4gc'fac'g ^1
06:59:03 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> Do you like this kind of melody? l8 e4gc'fac'g ^bd'fgfed e4gc'fac'g ^1
06:59:08 <HackEgo> 1097) <zzo38> Do you like this kind of melody? l8 e4gc'fac'g ^bd'fgfed e4gc'fac'g ^1
07:43:15 <olsner> <kmc> olsner: KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT <-- was this for oerjan?
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11:03:44 <HackEgo> slist s: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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11:16:50 <Taneb> Is a logarithmic spiral a fractal?
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11:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> wp says fractals are sets with fractal dimensions that 'usually' exceed their topological dimensions, which is a bit odd
11:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> after further reading i conclude that nobody can actually agree on what fractals are, except that they have to be kind of swirly and self-similar
12:09:36 <Jafet> It depends on which drugs you are using
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13:24:34 <boily> good third age morning.
13:25:20 <boily> @tell nooodl the dand list notifications seem to work well, but they still point to the same level20. is that normal?
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14:10:34 <boily> Roujo: I wonder how the Pouti will fare today. he spent the weekend on a saruman costume for the Initiatioooooon (♪ scare chord ♪)
14:11:10 <Taneb> I need to figure out how to cosplay Gandalf the Grey
14:11:21 <Roujo> boily: So I saw =P
14:12:19 <boily> Roujo: let me guess. he posted stuff on that newfangled Facebook thing the kids are all on these days.
14:12:48 <Roujo> boily: In a chat with me, yeah
14:12:49 <boily> Taneb: I should get to cosplay some time. by the looks of it, it seems very fun.
14:14:31 <Taneb> Yeah, it's all fun
14:14:35 <Taneb> Not at all wallet-burning
14:16:02 <boily> oh, while my synapses are beginning their daily workout and coherent thoughts are forming, were there any major modifications made to the Wisdoms in the past few days?
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14:50:45 <Roujo> boily: I don't think so, no
14:51:52 <Roujo> Hello, friend from the club ^^
14:52:08 <metasepia> club definition: a heavy usually tapering staff especially of wood wielded as a weapon.
14:52:10 <nooodl> boily: re: lambdabot: i've wondered the same thing. i think zzo keeps updating level20.tex but i have no idea what the "levels" are
14:53:07 <boily> nooodl: re: re: oh: la: lambdabot: makes sense.
14:53:15 <boily> @tell zzo38 what is a level?
14:54:22 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available) \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
14:54:29 <boily> I wonder if you can clear a branch while wielding a club as a melee character...
14:54:53 <nooodl> yeah http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/ contains only level20.tex
14:55:00 <nooodl> and some other stuff related to level20
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14:56:08 <HackEgo> Solain: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:56:56 <boily> nooodl: maybe it's only a coincidence that the letters form “level”. maybe it's a cipher based on zzo38's name, and it's parsed as “le”, then “vel20”.
14:57:38 <Solain> hmm guys, im only a novice programer, but on what language do people actually build their own language? asm?
14:57:59 <Roujo> Whatever you like, really
14:58:08 <Roujo> The interpreter can be written in anything
14:58:15 <Roujo> What matters is the language spec itself ^^
14:58:19 <nooodl> esolangs, at least, tend to be written in much more high-level languages
14:58:49 <Solain> hehe writing an esolang on an esolang
14:59:13 <boily> Solain: a common hobby, and a very interesting one too.
14:59:17 <Roujo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Self-interpreters
14:59:56 <Solain> he had a lot of time on his hands ay?
15:00:26 <Roujo> Here's a whole page
15:00:26 <Roujo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters
15:00:39 <boily> don't worry. people will scrounge and munge and maim your creations, and do wonderful and horrendous things with them.
15:01:18 <Solain> Deadfish has a way to output things but it has no way to input them!
15:01:32 <boily> not a problem. hth.
15:01:58 * boily whistles innocently
15:02:12 <Solain> i would like to see someone building a game engine on brainfuck
15:02:29 <boily> Solain: already done. and done.
15:02:30 <Roujo> With books and all!
15:02:43 <Roujo> We're kind of like Zombo.com here
15:02:45 <boily> both at the same time? no idea.
15:02:46 <Roujo> Everything is possible
15:02:51 <Roujo> The only limit... is yourself
15:03:14 <boily> oh fungot. someone has to make an official mp3 of that.
15:03:14 <fungot> boily: and is one thing which you might want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has just said! ...wh...what g...l...e...n...n?
15:04:54 <Roujo> Solain: Soon, you will learn about ~duck and `? and hth and all of these wonderful things
15:05:10 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:05:15 <Roujo> Except for hth, which isn't that wonderful, really
15:05:40 <metasepia> An esoteric programming language (sometimes shortened to esolang) is a programming language designed to test the boundaries of computer programming language design, as a proof of concept, or as a joke.
15:05:46 <metasepia> The brainfuck programming language is an esoteric programming language noted for its extreme minimalism.
15:06:19 <Solain> i download an pascal ide, that does everything but pascal
15:06:33 <metasepia> His early work included the invention of the adding machine and syringe, and the co-development with Fermat of the mathematical theory of probability.
15:06:53 <Solain> im not going to google it
15:07:07 <Roujo> boily: Shall I ask him the questiön? Or should you?
15:07:15 <metasepia> Duck Duck Go is a search engine based in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania that uses information from crowd-sourced sites (like Wikipedia) with the aim of augmenting traditional results and improving relevance.
15:07:38 <nooodl> Solain: ~duck performs duck duck go queries
15:09:12 <Roujo> It's one of the ways to ask what the hell people are talking about here
15:09:16 <Roujo> Or about stuff you don't know
15:11:27 <Solain> i want to start programming my own esolang, but i havent thought of a concept yet
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15:12:00 <Solain> i thought of writing it in 1337 lang but it will be a little bit too cheesy
15:12:17 <Roujo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/1337
15:12:35 <Roujo> Not relevant after all =P
15:12:42 <Roujo> There was one, though
15:13:03 <Roujo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/L33t
15:13:28 <Solain> but programmers who do that are "teh sUxX0r". HAHAHAHHAHAHH
15:15:03 <Solain> ok, so leet speak is catched
15:16:48 <Solain> hehe, a language that is all made from infinte loops
15:29:12 <Solain> *chucks a bucket of water*
15:30:06 <Bike> standards for eso have kind of gone up, you've got things like twoducks and eodermdrome to compete with
15:31:00 <Solain> but im doing this for fun
15:31:26 <Bike> well, yeah, but you probably still want to do something interesting.
15:31:28 <Roujo> >It is uncomputable on a Turing machine; it even allows you to solve the halting problem.
15:31:45 <quintopia> i don't understand this "i want to make an esolang...but i have no idea what to make" thing really. i always thought that "i have an idea for an esolang!" was the first step.
15:32:12 <Solain> i had one but i didnt know how to do it, now i do
15:32:18 <Solain> which allows you to go back in time and change things
15:32:37 <Solain> mine will also do coffee
15:33:06 <quintopia> any esolang that makes coffee is worth a look
15:33:19 <Solain> anything that makes coffee is worth a look
15:33:29 <quintopia> the question is: is the coffee turing-complete?
15:33:36 <Bike> bah. when did this channel allow in all these druggies
15:33:55 <quintopia> you should make a metaesolang. the language which makes it easy to make new esolangs.
15:33:58 <Bike> i bet you could make a neat non-equilibrium reaction with coffee, which could let you do some nice computey stuff.
15:34:41 <Bike> you urchins and your coffee
15:34:59 <quintopia> coffee is good for the soul and the hangover
15:35:20 <quintopia> the headaches are a result of the hangover
15:35:41 <Solain> (two times no for both of you)
15:35:54 <Solain> cause cthultu the computer god
15:36:01 <Solain> cause i dont have hangovers
15:36:12 <Bike> have you considered getting drunker
15:36:30 <Solain> have you considerd the fact that im under-aged?
15:37:03 <Solain> and i will be as drunk as a goat
15:37:34 <Bike> have you considered the fact that 420 blaze it every day
15:37:49 <Solain> see http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/174/2/b/goat_meme_by_existtraiesc-d6ab6ga.jpg
15:38:14 <Roujo> `run ls wisdom/goat
15:38:15 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/goat: No such file or directory
15:38:17 <Roujo> `run ls wisdom/goats
15:38:19 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/goats: No such file or directory
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15:38:35 <Bike> there you have it.
15:38:39 <Roujo> `relcome TheDoomSong
15:38:42 <HackEgo> TheDoomSong: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:39:08 <Solain> welcome to the talk about drunken goats
15:39:17 <Roujo> `run echo Goats are drunk 24/7, ask Solain for details. > wisdom/goats
15:39:40 <Solain> exception detected, Solain too stornk
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15:42:23 <Solain> let us stop talking about drunken goats, and talk about interepter building
15:42:38 <Bike> i built an interpreter once, but he fell on me.
15:42:52 <Roujo> I built an interpreter in Reno, but I can't recall why
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15:51:27 <boily> back from meeting!
15:51:42 <boily> Roujo: too lazy to check if Solain was The Questiöned. was he?
15:51:48 <boily> (or she. you never know.)
15:52:01 <Solain> there are no girls on the internet
15:52:08 <Solain> rule number something of the internet
15:52:36 <Bike> don't do this, man.
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15:53:03 <Solain> if you are so serious..
15:53:17 <Solain> [18:51] <boily> Roujo: too lazy to check if Solain was The Questiöned. was he?
15:54:27 <boily> Solain: he is Bike of the Innocuously Serious Replies. you can defeat him by lozenging his eyes.
15:54:56 <Solain> boily: i think i understood only 20% of that sentence
15:55:21 <boily> Solain: ask Koen (when he'll join) how he feels about not understanding what I say.
15:55:45 <Roujo> boily: I haven't Questiöned em, no. Not yet.
15:55:45 <Solain> boily: im afraid i wont understand him
15:56:00 <Solain> whats the deal with the weird o
15:56:37 <quintopia> you can save time and avoid tradition by just filling out the survey in the topic
15:56:50 <Solain> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q this?
15:57:06 <Solain> do you accept pesterchums?
15:57:08 <Bike> a lozenge is one of those diamond characters. ◊
15:57:13 <HackEgo> 1018) <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
15:57:24 <Solain> do you accept pesterchums?
15:57:29 <Bike> is that a drug
15:57:37 <Bike> well what's the point then.
15:57:47 <mnoqy> did someone say drugs
15:57:59 <quintopia> real people complain when you do things like kick them or shoot them in the eye
15:58:06 <Bike> mnoqy: #drugz.
15:58:15 <Bike> are you selling #drugz
15:58:18 <Bike> shachaf: often
15:58:47 <Solain> this is getting out of hand
15:59:14 <quintopia> Solain: nothing gets out of hand as long as you keep a beer there
15:59:14 <Roujo> A quart? Come on. Do I have to go all SI up on you? =P
15:59:26 <quintopia> (or a bottle of lean. whatever you prefer.)
15:59:40 <Bike> smoke hugs every day
16:00:39 <Solain> is narnia a legit country?
16:00:39 <Roujo> Brainfuck: My Anti-Drug
16:00:46 <Roujo> Depends on who you ask, though
16:00:52 <Roujo> Most people say no
16:01:01 <Roujo> You just have to find *those*
16:01:04 <Solain> i have sent the survey
16:01:08 <quintopia> Solain: i don't think so. all its kings and queens are in exile.
16:01:17 <mnoqy> did you put bogus answers on the survey
16:01:23 <mnoqy> the survey is very serious solain
16:01:25 <Roujo> quintopia: Do you need a government to have a country?
16:01:48 <Roujo> Putting in Narnia would fuck up the CoM big time
16:02:05 <quintopia> Narnia is in another galaxy isn't it
16:02:11 <Solain> now i finished the survey
16:02:11 <Roujo> Somewhere like that, yeah
16:02:16 <Roujo> Or another universe, even
16:02:21 <Roujo> Or another dimension entirely
16:02:33 <Solain> what the hell do you actually need my body wieght for
16:02:37 <quintopia> yeah. totes throwing off the centroid
16:02:39 <Roujo> Ïa! Ïa! Aslan fthang!
16:03:02 <quintopia> Solain: how would we find a center of mass without your approximate body weigh
16:03:04 <Solain> i just type dude in disgrace
16:04:03 <Roujo> Fun fact: Most lions exist
16:04:19 <shachaf> Roujo: Is that really true?
16:04:26 <shachaf> I know of several nonexistent lions.
16:04:27 <quintopia> Roujo: not true! there are far more lions in my imagination than in the world
16:04:36 <shachaf> I'm not sure I know of any existent ones.
16:04:39 <Roujo> quintopia: You haven't seen the Lion Dimension
16:04:53 <mnoqy> how often do you tell that joke shachaf
16:04:55 <Roujo> You just broke reality again
16:04:57 <elliott> if I asked what was going on, would the answer make sense to me and be satisfying?
16:05:04 <Roujo> elliott: Do you like lions?
16:05:10 <Bike> it would be boring though
16:05:22 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
16:05:23 <Bike> a dead theologian
16:05:26 <elliott> getting a strong "no" vibe here
16:05:38 <Roujo> Then no, it wouldn't satisfy you
16:05:42 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov
16:05:49 <quintopia> pascal is the dude who invented the first mechanical calculator
16:05:51 <metasepia> His early work included the invention of the adding machine and syringe, and the co-development with Fermat of the mathematical theory of probability.
16:06:05 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse. \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:06:06 <Bike> quintopia: are you thinking of leibniz
16:06:11 <Solain> ~duck why are we learning pascal at school
16:06:43 <Bike> oh, pascal did it too.
16:07:03 <Solain> what are you generally talking bout?
16:07:12 <quintopia> it's easier to keep your business's books usng the pascaline!
16:07:19 <Bike> blaise pascal. he invented a calculator.
16:07:28 <mnoqy> an idea?? i love ideas
16:07:35 <Roujo> Remember that oerjan has this anti-hth script?
16:07:41 <Roujo> What if we kicked it up a notch
16:07:52 <Roujo> And put it on *your* client
16:07:53 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:08:05 <Roujo> So that it auto-kick people who say it =P
16:08:32 <elliott> if you want abuse of op power, you could just ask me directly.
16:08:45 <mnoqy> what's that face thing doing there
16:08:48 <quintopia> elliott: kick people who say hth hth
16:08:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
16:08:58 -!- elliott has kicked quintopia if you insist.
16:09:03 -!- quintopia has joined.
16:09:20 <Roujo> I take it that it actually helped =P
16:10:44 <Solain> phantom_hoover Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist Phantom__Hoover can’t decide what an appropriate number of underscores is. Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself. phantom_______hoover It doesn’t get any better than this.
16:10:58 <Solain> wisdom pdf sure is wise
16:11:43 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -C7 -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g -e 's/!\?$/!/' \ #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ e
16:12:44 <Roujo> `run rm bin/cat hth
16:12:48 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `hth': No such file or directory
16:12:58 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i'm guessing it's the e cut off there
16:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/8a05139b44fa/bin/%3F
16:14:08 <Solain> are you guyz using irc programs or the web client
16:14:22 <Solain> i dont know what is more comftrable
16:14:47 <Solain> ~duck "irc is useless"
16:15:35 -!- Koen__ has joined.
16:15:53 -!- Koen__ has quit (Client Quit).
16:16:15 -!- Koen__ has joined.
16:16:29 <metasepia> BeOS is an operating system for personal computers first developed by Be Inc. in 1991.
16:16:47 <metasepia> A registry mark given by underwriters to ships in first-class condition.
16:17:33 <Roujo> `run echo An ambitiöus new Esolanger who, although underage, is eager to learn. > wisdom/Solain
16:20:47 <Bike> that sounds worryingly sensible
16:20:48 <Solain> about duck and web crawlers
16:20:55 <Bike> can you work in a stupid joke about what country he's from, or something
16:21:27 <Solain> that sites use robots.txt to block ddos attack that hapoppes from web crawlers
16:22:23 <Koen__> I've heard him called "webhead" or "wall crawler" in the past, but never "web crawler"
16:22:39 <Solain> thats the official term
16:22:49 <Solain> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_crawler
16:23:04 <Roujo> Wall crawlers > Web crawlers
16:23:17 <Roujo> Since you can run out of webs, but you'll never run out of walls
16:23:33 <Roujo> Can you build a web?
16:23:36 <Roujo> Can you build a wall?
16:23:38 <Solain> you can never run out of webz
16:23:44 <Roujo> Which one sounds easier?
16:23:58 <Roujo> How many web-builders do you know?
16:24:03 <Roujo> How many wall-builders are there?
16:24:18 <Solain> but there is only one web)
16:24:22 <Roujo> Your father is a spider?
16:24:33 <Solain> dudeeeeeeeee im talking about the internetz
16:24:43 <Roujo> You mean the Interwebs?
16:24:48 <Roujo> Mucho webs right there
16:24:53 <Solain> whatever floats your boat
16:24:59 <Roujo> My boat sank in '84
16:25:12 <Roujo> Along with her love
16:25:26 <Solain> write a book, make a fortune
16:26:03 <Roujo> Solain: Did you know about humans.txt?
16:26:13 <Solain> i dont even want to hear about it
16:26:22 <Roujo> http://www.google.com/humans.txt
16:27:05 <Roujo> If I was, could I look you in the eye and say I want to meet your daughter?
16:27:26 <Solain> dont have adaughter m8
16:27:46 <Roujo> I was sure e had one
16:28:09 <Solain> didnt we allready talk bout that ima under-aged
16:28:46 <metasepia> Solanin is a Japanese manga written and illustrated by Inio Asano.
16:29:01 <Solain> thats not even utterly funny
16:29:12 <Roujo> Didn't I just add that entry?
16:29:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /run: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /run: cannot execute: No such file or directory
16:29:18 <HackEgo> a.c \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ bsdmreclist \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gg \ god \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ raise_them \ random \ run \ share \ src \ wisdom \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:29:35 <Solain> WHAT THE HELL IS THE FOLDER NAME
16:29:49 <Solain> STOP RAISING YOUR DONGERS MAN
16:29:52 <Bike> the folder name of what
16:30:24 <Solain> does it matter? he is all there raising his dongers
16:31:12 <Roujo> `run echo ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ > wisdom/Solain
16:31:22 <Solain> no! put those dongers down right now!
16:31:45 <Roujo> `run cat wisdom/Solain
16:31:56 <Bike> `run cat $(which ?)
16:31:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -C7 -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g -e 's/!\?$/!/' \ #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ e
16:32:32 <Bike> So, what are your thoughts on the computational theory of mind.
16:32:35 <Solain> how am i going to make an esolang which is all made from loops
16:32:47 <Bike> i dunno. make some shit up. fuck it. fuck everything.
16:32:48 <Roujo> Bike: I think we're NP-Hard
16:33:23 <Bike> while 1; do echo ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ; done
16:33:28 <Bike> `run while 1; do echo ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ; done
16:33:29 <HackEgo> bash: 1: command not found
16:33:40 <Bike> `run while true; do echo ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ; done
16:33:42 <HackEgo> ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:33:47 <Solain> cause it will be my first interepter
16:33:47 <elliott> can you try putting more than one word on each line ;_;
16:34:08 <Roujo> Says the new guy to the operator
16:34:37 <Koen__> you do realize hitting " " isn't any harder than hitting '
16:34:39 <Solain> op has alot oh responsob on his\her shoulders
16:35:23 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +m.
16:36:32 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -m.
16:36:35 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +v quintopia.
16:36:47 <Roujo> Voice the sane ones, they said
16:37:09 <Roujo> The whole channel got muted =P
16:37:15 <quintopia> funny thing. just after the muting i said.
16:37:44 <Solain> did the op do dat for de lolz and giglez
16:37:44 <quintopia> < quintopia> elliott: can you kick people who don't write their whole message in the same PRIVMSG
16:38:20 <elliott> I do everything for de lolz and giglez!
16:38:25 <Koen__> or we could tell the bot to kick any one who speaks twice in a row
16:39:46 <Solain> is the irch channel hosted on the esolang wiki server?
16:39:55 <Bike> it is on the freenode network.
16:40:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:40:52 <Bike> so you can join exciting programming channels like #PHP and #django.
16:41:00 <elliott> my autocratic control of the esoteric languages universe has not yet extended to the IRC servers
16:41:15 <Bike> "except for this whole op thing, i mean"
16:41:20 <Bike> "got that going pretty solid"
16:41:43 <Roujo> elliott is op, please nerf
16:41:44 <elliott> it's just not the same unless you can k-line people ;_;
16:42:03 <Roujo> Start irc.esolangs.org!
16:42:42 <Solain> "elliott is op, please nerf" better nerf irelia
16:45:37 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
16:50:19 <elliott> as in I host the read-only archive that is all that's left of it
16:50:27 <elliott> also the mailing list is completely broken now, I think
16:53:41 <Solain> well, ill be back at 20-60 min
16:53:46 <Roujo> New Brainfuck Variant
16:53:53 <Roujo> New Spoons For All
16:57:25 -!- conehead has joined.
17:00:03 -!- Solain has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:00:06 <boily> back from lunch, my terminal is trying to send me sublinicodal messages, and I get mentioned through the eldritch noise.
17:00:18 <boily> pray tell what just happened?
17:01:12 <boily> that's good. elliott can now serve as an example case that I myself am not insane :D
17:01:52 -!- Solain has joined.
17:03:45 <Solain> lets talk about our favourite food
17:04:09 <boily> very nice. a coworker and I went to a new place. it was vegetarian and lentilly :)
17:04:19 <boily> Solain: your dad is your favourite food???
17:04:53 <Solain> my faviroute food is sushi
17:04:59 <boily> quintopia: how does it feel to be voiced? is it kmcesque?
17:05:01 <Solain> or however you type it in english
17:05:11 <boily> Solain: where are you from?
17:05:31 <elliott> Solain: fiora, is that you? :o
17:05:40 <Solain> to not awake political dissucsions, ill say narnia
17:05:49 <quintopia> boily: it feels like normal, except that if elliott has to mute the weirdos again, it won't stop me from feeling normal
17:06:06 <Solain> i dont even know who fiore is
17:06:52 <Solain> WHY WOULD IM MASK MY IP IN ESOLANG IRC
17:07:08 <Solain> also i thought im on irc node
17:07:26 <Solain> gawd this is worse than the skype ip exploit
17:07:59 <Solain> also, i didnt want to say that im from israel so you would start a political debate or something
17:08:03 <quintopia> it's not an exploit if it's the intended behavior
17:08:04 <boily> (元のバージョンは「寿司」と言うが、sushiが可能です。)
17:08:15 <Solain> "you land robbers" or something like dat
17:08:38 <Solain> [20:08] <+quintopia> it's not an exploit if it's the intended behavior''''' did you read how the ip exploit work?
17:08:40 <quintopia> Solain: i don't think there are any palestinians in this channel, so it shouldn't turn political in any case.
17:08:49 <boily> Solain: you're not the only israelite in there, and I have a nifty list of approximate coördinates :D
17:08:53 <Solain> its not only palestains
17:09:03 <quintopia> Solain: i type /whois and the server tells me your IP
17:09:14 <Solain> you can also double click my name
17:09:41 <elliott> I'm pretty sure it's possible for people who aren't from Palestine to have an opinion on the conflict, but I'm also sure that I'm going to get really tempted to +m again if it happens as inanely as this seems to be edging towards
17:09:43 <Solain> talked about different subjects
17:10:12 <Solain> this also isnt brainfuck coded platform, alas we talk about brainfuck
17:10:39 <quintopia> raise your hand if you talk about brainfuck
17:10:43 <Solain> im breaking my fingers here, i like to type short
17:11:11 <quintopia> nope i don't think we talk about brainfuck. perhaps you meant to say underload
17:12:43 <Solain> i wanted to learn how to code an interepter in C
17:12:48 <Solain> but you keep this as a secret
17:13:02 <boily> Solain: you are probably in Tel Aviv, or near it.
17:13:21 <Solain> ip location can find the supplier on the internet
17:13:48 <quintopia> good enough for the CoM i think boily
17:13:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v kmc.
17:13:58 <boily> I'm used to Canadian dimensions, so for me you are near Tel Aviv anyway :p
17:14:03 <kmc> a song is a weapon
17:14:11 <kmc> hi quintopia
17:14:13 <boily> quintopia: what's a CoM?
17:14:31 <kmc> Solain: I am that I am
17:14:42 <Solain> you are kitten mortality complex
17:14:49 <boily> quintopia: I'll write that. what's the average humanoïd mass in israel?
17:15:41 * boily whacks Solain with a blubbery blue whale
17:15:47 <quintopia> Solain: what's your average body weigh man we're dying to know
17:15:48 <Roujo> Android 4.4 is named KitKat
17:15:48 <kmc> boily: for some reason a large portion of the music I listen to is from Montréal
17:16:15 <Roujo> kmc: That's nice. Such as? =)
17:16:32 <metasepia> American jurist who was dean of Harvard Law School and wrote several influential books, including The Spirit of the Common Law.
17:16:33 <boily> kmc: nice! amon tobin? l'orkestre des pas perdus? jérôme minière? arcade fire?
17:16:40 <kmc> GY!BE and their 50 side projects
17:16:44 <Solain> duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
17:16:47 <kmc> also Stars
17:16:57 <elliott> Solain: can you stop flooding please?
17:16:58 <kmc> Arcade Fire is pretty good too
17:17:16 <Solain> for me it isnt flooding cause im on the web platform
17:17:25 <Roujo> Flooding is flooding - just say no
17:17:34 <kmc> also I like "of Montreal" but they are from Georgia :3
17:17:35 <boily> flooding: not even once.
17:17:46 <Roujo> I support and do so
17:18:07 <quintopia> we should talk about music that isn't from montreal
17:18:08 <elliott> kmc: was just trying to think of how to mention of montreal in re: the above
17:18:19 <Roujo> Now, can anyone help me find why `? Solain doesn't work? =/
17:18:44 <Roujo> `? run cat wisdom/Solain
17:18:45 <HackEgo> run cat wisdom/Solain? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:18:51 <Roujo> `run cat wisdom/Solain
17:19:00 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:19:12 <Solain> HAVE I BECOME YOUR MEME
17:19:15 <Roujo> Oh. It's case-sensitive?
17:19:24 <Roujo> `run mv wisdom/Solain wisdom/solain
17:19:39 <Roujo> quintopia: Thanks =)
17:20:10 <Solain> does anybody here read homestuck?
17:20:24 <mnoqy> let's never speak of this again
17:21:04 <HackEgo> Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif
17:21:09 <quintopia> i'd be happy to not speak of homestuck with you mnoqy. i was planning on doing that anyway.
17:21:45 <mnoqy> thanks quintopia i'm glad you understand
17:21:59 <metasepia> Homestuck is a webcomic written, illustrated, and animated by Andrew Hussie, and is the fourth overall webcomic published on MS Paint Adventures.
17:23:46 <Solain> what a wonderful silence, someone has to ruin it
17:24:19 <mnoqy> do you say that every time nobody speaks for one and a half minute
17:24:30 <kmc> should i read homestuck
17:24:34 <Solain> i said that for the first time
17:24:40 * boily repeatedly applies kinetic energy onto Solain with a +2 wooden curmudgeon of Blam
17:24:44 <kmc> maybe i should read Ulysses first
17:24:51 <quintopia> silence is a good means of not talking about homestuck
17:25:04 <Roujo> Kinetic energy is best ergy
17:25:07 <boily> (a very nice curmudgeon made of driftwood. very aerodynamic.)
17:25:35 <quintopia> boily: a curmudgeon is an old grumpy person
17:25:52 <boily> quintopia: and? I don't see any problem with that.
17:25:52 <quintopia> i think you'd get more Blam with a cudgel
17:26:03 <boily> I'm not that violent.
17:26:09 <metasepia> curmudgeon definition: '''archaic''' miser.
17:26:45 <Roujo> And yet it's pretty damn accurate
17:26:50 <metasepia> miser definition: a mean grasping person; '''especially''' one who is extremely stingy with money.
17:27:02 <metasepia> In soil science, humus refers to any organic matter that has reached a point of stability, where it will break down no further and might, if conditions do not change, remain as it is for centuries, if not millennia.
17:27:07 <metasepia> Hummus (-OEOQ5) is a Middle Eastern and Arabic food dip or spread made from cooked, mashed chickpeas blended with tahini, olive oil, lemon juice, salt and garlic.
17:27:21 <kmc> Solain: Homestuck is like 6,000 pages...
17:27:32 <coppro> you appear to be new here
17:27:42 <Solain> you apper to be new here to me
17:27:57 <Solain> kmc dude, homestuck is long
17:29:10 <Solain> you want me to shut up for a while?
17:30:03 <quintopia> if you're volunteering, i'm more than willing to rubber-stamp your application
17:30:24 <Solain> i didnt understand 80% of that sentance
17:30:25 * boily wraps Solain in Hello Kitty Duct Tape and hogties him to a ceiling in a very post-modern and decorative manner
17:30:27 <kmc> i'll notorize
17:31:33 <Solain> look, i just ant to know where can i learn how to build an interepter and ill shut up for some good hours
17:31:52 <kmc> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours
17:31:58 <Roujo> It's not that you talk a lot, most of us do
17:32:16 <Roujo> Well, erm. Some of us, anyway.
17:32:23 <nooodl> kmc: that's pretty overkill imo
17:32:28 <kmc> really annoying
17:32:40 <kmc> nooodl: more like underkill
17:32:49 <kmc> too close for missiles
17:32:50 <mnoqy> how about just plain old kill
17:32:50 <Solain> ill try to type everything in one sentence, but it really kills my hands
17:33:16 <mnoqy> that's the strangest excuse i've heard in quite some time
17:33:25 <Solain> i got used to typing in \n, and ijust cant shake it off
17:33:29 <quintopia> you're just afraid that attention will move away from you if you spend a minute without saying something
17:33:32 <Roujo> `run ls wisdom/kill
17:33:34 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/kill: No such file or directory
17:33:39 <Roujo> `run cat kill | over | under | echo > wisdom/kill
17:33:42 <HackEgo> bash: under: command not found \ bash: over: command not found \ cat: kill: No such file or directory
17:34:15 <Solain> i can just talk in one sentence and attention still will be gotton (this is a total gramatic mistake)
17:34:35 <Solain> but it literally makes my arms hurt
17:35:16 <kmc> why does it hurt less to hit 'enter' more?
17:35:22 <Solain> im a gamer, ergonomics is what i need partly, so im going to get a new keyboard soon
17:35:42 <mnoqy> that's the first time i've heard someone describe themself as a gamer
17:35:50 <Solain> im not a doctor when it comes to muscles
17:35:55 <kmc> buy the kinesis contoured, it's amazincg
17:36:02 <boily> `learn gotton is a quantum of attention. Solain drives the packet.
17:36:09 <Solain> im buying the blackwidow 2013
17:36:10 <kmc> `addquote <Solain> im not a doctor when it comes to muscles
17:36:13 <HackEgo> 1098) <Solain> im not a doctor when it comes to muscles
17:36:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18855
17:36:47 <kmc> BlackWIDOW ULTRA BigFoot DOMINATOR MurderKill XXXTREEME Gamer Keyboard
17:36:51 <kmc> with MILITARY GRADE CAPACITORS
17:37:09 <Roujo> Then again, I have a Das Keyboard
17:37:12 <boily> hey, people addquoted me in my absence! I... not quite resent that. in fact, I feel particularly flattered :)
17:37:34 <nooodl> i'm still not in `pastequotes
17:37:36 <elliott> did they make the build quality on das keyboards not awful yet?
17:38:11 <Solain> <+kmc> BlackWIDOW ULTRA BigFoot''''' bigfoot?
17:38:13 <kmc> damnit Gregor send a charset UTF-8 header already
17:38:15 <Roujo> Got the Ultimate version with MX Brown switched
17:39:19 <boily> nooodl: no idea why. you should have a sudden insanity surge à la fungot, mixed with elliottisms and say something that involves pineapples and a random nordic country.
17:39:19 <fungot> boily: perhaps, if more and more dwarfs were coming to work much better :) draw'd it off, it wasn't. holy cow, i never claimed that the victim) subject:re: `which fnord echo
17:39:38 <Solain> i didnt really understand the page of
17:40:25 <Solain> i didnt really understand the page of "build yourself a scheme in 48 hr", the first page says it teaches haskell
17:41:04 <Roujo> Do you want to teach you a Haskell instead?
17:41:14 <kmc> `quote 1064
17:41:16 <HackEgo> 1064) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
17:41:56 <Solain> SOLAIN CANT COMPILE, ERROR ERROR
17:42:56 <kmc> `quote 1037
17:42:57 <HackEgo> 1037) <Bike> can sex be liberated from the von neumann position
17:42:58 <Solain> i do not understand what is going on here, i want to learn how to build an interepter, is haskell part of it?
17:43:05 <metasepia> Haskell - A lazy purely functional language largely derived from Miranda but with several extensions.
17:43:24 <Solain> it is a language, i dont want to build my interepter in haskell
17:43:27 <Roujo> s/several/extensive/g
17:43:38 <quintopia> Solain: what language do you want to use
17:43:38 -!- conehead_ has joined.
17:43:44 <boily> s/extensive/a fungotload of/g
17:43:44 <fungot> boily: if it's ( syntactically) long, and brainfuck command keys. its a terrorst training video we better get gwb on to another crash
17:44:08 <Roujo> Solain: You could start by making an interpreter of a known language
17:44:12 <Roujo> To get the hang of it
17:44:19 <Roujo> Then make your own esolang and do it again ^^
17:44:31 <Solain> that clever, where do i start?
17:44:43 <Roujo> Solain: What does an interpreter do?
17:45:02 <boily> once you reach metacircularity, you'll know you'll have started.
17:45:23 <Solain> another thing, how do you msg people in irc?
17:45:34 <Roujo> Solain: A compiler compiles, an interpreter interprets
17:45:50 <Roujo> /part #esolang username msg
17:45:58 <Roujo> /part #esoteric username msg
17:46:22 <quintopia> http://www.icemanind.com/ might help Solain
17:46:30 -!- Solain has left ("Roujo test").
17:46:37 <fungot> boily: am i that much bad. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey
17:46:42 <quintopia> "virtual machine" is a way of obfuscating "interpreter"
17:47:09 -!- Solain has joined.
17:47:10 <boily> «ce n'est, qu'un au revoir, mon cher... ♪♪♪»
17:47:30 <Solain> why did you msg command got me out of the room and into a load of text
17:48:25 <Solain> anyway (sorry for the /n), can you send the link again? i got out of the room before i opend it
17:48:36 <Roujo> <+quintopia> http://www.icemanind.com/ might help Solain
17:48:44 <Roujo> <+quintopia> "virtual machine" is a way of obfuscating "interpreter"
17:50:25 -!- conehead_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:50:32 -!- coneehad has joined.
17:51:32 -!- coneehad has changed nick to conehead.
17:51:38 <Solain> inter just runs the code
17:52:44 <Roujo> Not as far as we know
17:52:52 <Roujo> Though I guess it can be arranged
17:53:14 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: Roujo and I are brother experts.
17:53:26 <boily> Roujo: we should start a consulting cabinet for brotherly needs.
17:54:05 <Solain> are you bilogical brothers or social bros?
17:54:41 <Taneb> boily, I'm holding my brother's college ID hostage
17:54:50 <Taneb> Can you give me advice how to proceed?
17:54:55 <boily> Solain: neither. that's too commonplace and plebeian a concept of brotherhood. nothing less than multiple bro-levels of enterprisey indirection.
17:55:15 <Gregor> Taneb: Is there a REASON you're doing this?
17:55:18 <Roujo> Very canadiany indeed
17:55:19 <Solain> thats like, quadrants of brotherhood?
17:55:21 <boily> Taneb: go to bars. dispatch rubber ducks.
17:55:23 <kmc> `quote 1006
17:55:25 <HackEgo> 1006) <ThatOtherPerson> Do you have a girlfriend, fungot? <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
17:55:38 <Taneb> Gregor, he stole one of my tee-shirts
17:55:46 <Taneb> THAT I WAS GOING TO USE FOR COSPLAY
17:55:50 <Taneb> Solain, "quadrants"?
17:56:05 <boily> Taneb: your brother is a meanie. you just don't do that.
17:56:06 <metasepia> Used to refer to that one previously mentioned.
17:56:17 <Solain> if yoy have doubt, just duck it!
17:56:23 <metasepia> The Yoy people are an ethnic group in Southeast Asia.
17:56:34 <boily> Roujo: darn. you ninjaoyed me.
17:56:47 * Roujo does the Crane Stance, Brother Variant
17:56:57 <metasepia> quadrant definition: an instrument for measuring altitudes consisting commonly of a graduated arc of 90 degrees with an index or vernier and usually having a plumb line or spirit level for fixing the vertical or horizontal direction.
17:57:15 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: use the ' ' ' delete a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there? it's clearly not necessary to achieve the planned than fnord since no sign, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance,
17:57:17 <Roujo> I think I played that game. Got stuck in the spirit level, though.
17:58:00 <boily> having an ouya is bad for your wallet. the games are cheap, so you pop them like a tube of pringles and the fun can't stop.
17:58:03 <metasepia> quadrant definition: an instrument for measuring altitudes consisting commonly of a graduated arc of 90 degrees with an index or vernier and usually having a plumb line or spirit level for fixing the vertical or horizontal direction.
17:58:24 <boily> (which by itself is perfectly fine, but I'd prefer to leave my wallet intact in the process.)
17:58:36 <Roujo> boily: Yeah, I should finally get mine soon
17:58:42 <Roujo> Well, soon-ish anyway
17:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, i'm tempted to be all like 'oh i heard it was shit' but even i'm getting annoyed with myself by now
18:00:23 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: it works well. the games are either retro, completely addictive, hilarious, or all of that at the same time.
18:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i swear this channel's more bots than people these days
18:01:31 <boily> oh, right. sorry, my mem's faulty here.
18:01:48 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
18:01:51 * boily sticks a drumstick in Solain's ear and wiggle it a little
18:02:34 <Solain> im try to learn how to build a VM here
18:02:47 <Solain> and you are sticking sticks in my ear (thus the /n)
18:03:08 <Roujo> I got my languages mixed up there
18:03:21 <boily> *wiggle* *wiggle* *wiggle* :D
18:03:35 <Solain> btw, roujo, the link you sent? it contains a lot of assmebly
18:03:47 <Roujo> Solain: That was quintopia
18:04:01 <Roujo> Also, the point still stands that you can write an interpreter in any language
18:04:15 <Solain> i can, but i dont know how
18:04:30 <Roujo> Picking ASM probably isn't the best idea ever
18:04:36 <Roujo> Unless you're really good with ASM already
18:04:41 <Solain> i can also shoot light bolts from my head, but whats the point if i dont know how right?
18:05:08 <Solain> and i suck with asm, never understood it, never will
18:05:14 <boily> good thing the drumstick is made of wood. wouldn't wand myself getting electrocuted here.
18:05:22 <Roujo> Solain: Then don't do it with ASM
18:05:30 <Roujo> Do it in C, since you seem to like that
18:05:57 <Solain> but i dont know how, i didnt find any type of link in google or tut or guide
18:06:06 <Roujo> Think about what it's supposed to do
18:06:16 <Roujo> Define what it should do, and start from taht
18:06:32 <Taneb> boily, my tee-shirt has been returned
18:06:40 <Taneb> Thus I have returned his college ID card
18:06:43 <boily> Taneb: have you kept the ID as collateral?
18:07:00 <Solain> WAIT I HAVE AN C LEARNING BOOK WHICH CONTAINS A WHOLCE CHAPTER DEDICATED TO THIS
18:07:12 <boily> ~duck dielectric constant of a drumstick
18:07:50 <Roujo> `run echo Caps Lock is cruise control for cool > "wisdom/caps lock"
18:08:10 <Solain> only caps can demonstrate my anger
18:08:13 <boily> Solain: actual advice: start with Python. it is sane, and will help you build up interpreters in no time.
18:08:36 <Taneb> Solain, I have a C learning book which has obfuscation in the introduction
18:08:37 <boily> Solain: then you're free to go. all my public interps. are in python or ruby.
18:09:35 <Solain> taneb, didnt catch the point; boily, i think you are right
18:09:50 <Taneb> Solain, there really wasn't a point, I'm afraid
18:10:30 <boily> Roujo: I feel Chinese is even better at cruising than caps. you get full height double width chars!
18:10:36 <boily> (e.g. 我種鱸魚鱸魚amanchée錯了！)
18:11:03 <Roujo> boily: Désolé, mais c'est du chinois pour moi =/
18:11:23 <boily> hook, line, sinker... I really walked into that one, eh?
18:12:43 <Solain> whats like the averge age range of active users in this irc? im asking this because im feel like im the youngest one here
18:13:08 <elliott> I remember the good old days when I was the youngest person here
18:13:13 <Roujo> boily: That you did. Mostly the line part, though. The rest just follows your heart~~
18:13:19 <elliott> except they were bad rather than good
18:13:22 <Roujo> elliott: That can be arranged in one of many ways
18:13:52 <mnoqy> elliott: darn that asiekierka
18:13:59 <boily> I think JesseH was the youngest.
18:14:13 <mnoqy> why do you say? :)
18:14:19 <boily> @tell asiekierka who are you? how do you appröximate? weigh weigh pon pon pon?
18:14:45 <Roujo> That's going to be a wat moment. I hope I'm around.
18:15:06 <boily> mnoqy: I reckon so, but you know the legendary bad state my memory is in.
18:15:45 <Solain> 15 birthdays, 16 years
18:16:25 <boily> not so bad; about a sixth of a cpressey.
18:16:45 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse.
18:17:31 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse.
18:17:41 <Solain> you have quite a collection of bots here
18:18:11 <Solain> i wasnt sure if you were joking
18:18:37 <boily> he has won half the battle.
18:18:41 <Solain> get your stick out of my ear
18:19:34 <Roujo> s/stick/non-euclidian apparatus/g
18:20:33 <boily> Solain: ask oerjan :D
18:20:44 <Solain> tell me the robotic ways
18:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> it's 'happy to help'; please stop using ~duck as a first line of inquiry
18:21:42 <boily> Solain: fetch an existing library. tweak what you want. expand. encompass. assimilate.
18:21:49 <Roujo> Wasn't it "hope that helps"?
18:21:56 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: what have you got against my fine bot? :p
18:22:06 <boily> Roujo: no, it's help from a hairy toe.
18:22:40 <metasepia> LLBG 031820Z 28005KT 9999 FEW027 28/21 Q1010 NOSIG
18:22:54 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
18:23:08 <Roujo> That sounds like something you'd put in
18:23:16 <Roujo> I object, your hönor
18:23:33 <Solain> if not duck, where do i get my first line of help from? hackego? you got to have a robot for that if you have so many robots
18:23:46 <Roujo> We don't have a robot for love
18:25:49 <Solain> anyway, any dude who programmed with python, what version of python is better: 2.7 or 3? i had arguments about this and alot
18:26:30 <kmc> why do you only want to hear from dudes
18:27:15 <mnoqy> "dude" is all encompassing
18:27:19 <mnoqy> even pets and flowers are dudes
18:27:27 <Roujo> Especially flowers
18:28:09 <boily> I want to buy a cactus for our next dand session.
18:28:13 <Solain> you want me to change so much, in the end i will only say "hello im dave" and become one of your robots
18:28:18 <kmc> Solain: Python 3 is better in prinicple, but doesn't have the library support etc. just yet
18:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i still don't actually know any differences between the two beyond print being different
18:29:17 <kmc> they unfucked the Unicode support a bit
18:29:24 <kmc> mostly by renaming 'str' to 'bytes' and 'unicode' to 'str'
18:29:49 <kmc> but also by being more strict about mixing them
18:30:31 <Solain> but as you used, libary support is problematic
18:30:37 <kmc> also a lot of stuff has changed to return iterators, so you don't need xrange or .iteritems() etc.
18:31:13 <elliott> my contract states right here that I have to tell you the best version of python is called haskell 2010
18:31:32 <boily> btw, now that lenses have the haskelling sphere's attention, what about iteratees and such?
18:37:09 <Solain> i always found 64 bit installations of any kind be problamtic to my computer, doest matter what kind of program the prgram is, most of the if i will download a 64 bit installation of it i will have problems, 32 bit doesnt have them
18:37:43 <Roujo> Is your OS 32-bit? Because that would make things weird.
18:37:46 <kmc> i curse thee
18:38:26 <Solain> i have 8 ram of memory in pc
18:39:01 <boily> I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD.
18:39:11 <Roujo> boily: Dodging the question
18:39:19 <Solain> whole? dual channel, 2 cards its 4
18:39:19 <Taneb> `addquote <boily> I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD.
18:39:23 <HackEgo> 1099) <boily> I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD.
18:40:09 <Roujo> boily: So I take it you prefer the goat's analog feel?
18:40:39 <Solain> http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/174/2/b/goat_meme_by_existtraiesc-d6ab6ga.jpg
18:40:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:40:57 <mnoqy> let's not go there
18:41:14 <Solain> why? feel the power almighty of the drunken goat
18:43:01 * boily straps Solain with Christmas lights that strobe arhythmic patterns (and an Arduino to power them)
18:43:28 <Solain> you actually know what an arduino is?
18:43:44 <Roujo> Look at the channel
18:44:24 <Roujo> Anyway, yeah, people here are pretty tech-savvy
18:44:34 <Roujo> We're talking about people who make esolangs *for fun*
18:45:02 <Roujo> People to which a Turing Tarpit is both defined and a possible goal
18:45:29 <Roujo> So yes, people will probably know about Arduino, and they'll probably know a thing or two about robots.txt
18:46:12 <Roujo> The Internet is a wonderful thing. You meet people of all types, with all kinds of background
18:46:23 <Roujo> A carp a day, they said. Well, they were right.
18:47:14 <Solain> i got used to hangout with people that are only in one tech group or another, so getting to know people who a moderate amount a some groups quite alot of these people at once is new to me
18:48:20 <Solain> for example, a dude who both programs and both is an (i dont know th word in english) *works with elctric circuits* is quite unsusual to me
18:48:37 <Solain> quite it is two totally different genres from my point of view
18:48:43 <Roujo> It's mostly that there's a lot of overlap here
18:49:12 <Roujo> As individuals, we don't know everything. As a channel, we do.
18:49:56 <boily> as a computer engineer, I overlap over myself :D
18:50:09 <Solain> you can never know everything, because if you dont know something than how you dont know that you dont know it
18:50:37 <Roujo> But you can know that you don't know something
18:50:55 <Roujo> I know that I don't know how to cook squid
18:51:07 <Solain> but you know what cooking and squid is
18:51:10 <Roujo> What's your point?
18:51:43 <Solain> Glory to the hypnotoad
18:52:33 * boily wires up 30 amperes on Solain's lights...
18:52:48 <fungot> olsner: i would like to join? the hell
18:53:30 <Solain> how much of you are robots?
18:54:41 <Roujo> You can make people dance, too
18:54:50 <Roujo> What was it again?
18:55:00 <Solain> i want ot know how to type like you
18:55:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: celebrate: not found
18:55:19 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
18:55:19 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
18:55:19 <myndzi> /< c.c >\ /| | | >\ c.c |\ | /| |/´\ c.c /|
18:55:30 <Roujo> There we go. Thanks, olsner
18:55:48 <Roujo> Solain: Just use your keyboard to type, it works pretty well so far.
18:55:56 <boily> Solain: learn the Way of the IRC. everything is a /part of the great whole.
18:56:30 <Solain> ./gimme didnt work, so didnt /su nor /help or /man
18:57:12 * boily switches on the lights from far away, wearing a pair of tempered glass goggles
18:57:14 <Solain> i want my cookiez, my lovely irc flavuored cookiez
18:57:44 <Solain> switch your lightz how much you want, im not in than anymore, your beloved teddy bear is
18:58:24 <Roujo> Yup, he's gone mad
18:58:28 <Roujo> boily: Is that a new record?
18:58:31 -!- dessos has joined.
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18:59:08 <boily> Roujo: I guess so. from my quite sane standpoint, I concur.
18:59:36 <Solain> you wanted to melt my skin off with christmas lights, if someone is mad it is you!
19:00:17 <Solain> and to top off the crime with sin, you added an arduino to the mix
19:01:33 <Roujo> It's no fun if you can't overclock the PCB, innit?
19:03:01 <olsner> hmm, why does "coördinate" only parse as a noun and not as a verb for me?
19:03:09 * Solain brakes the arduino into small tiny tiny tiny tiny pieces
19:03:13 <Roujo> Because it's a noun?
19:03:25 <olsner> no, coordinate is also a verb
19:03:28 <Roujo> Solain: There you go. Lv2 in IRCing now. Keep it up.
19:03:34 <olsner> e.g. coordinating people
19:03:35 <Roujo> Sure, but coördinate isn't.
19:04:17 <boily> it's... uhm... poëtic liberty applied to a wonderful word that scans so well. so it's a verbal noun, I say.
19:05:38 <boily> at least it's not an い-adjective. I never quite got over the fact that you have to conjugate the adjective, not the verb.
19:05:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:05:53 <olsner> who's the resident diaeresologist/lexicographer?
19:06:00 <Roujo> public void onUpgrade(SQLiteDatabase arg0, int arg1, int arg2) {
19:06:00 <Roujo> // Useless, as there is only One True Version of the Database so far
19:06:12 <olsner> good argument naming too
19:06:28 <boily> olsner: I think it's me, even if my views are considered unorthodox by some of this channel's regulars.
19:06:38 <olsner> hmm, but you're french?
19:06:59 <boily> olsner: Canadian. there's a big nuance.
19:07:35 <Roujo> French Canadian. So yeah
19:07:45 <Roujo> olsner: public void onUpgrade(SQLiteDatabase database, int fromVersion, int toVersion)
19:07:50 <Roujo> Fixed it for you =P
19:08:22 <boily> Roujo: ouais bon, on s'ostinera pas sur des détails sémantiques de même, là là...
19:08:41 <Solain> יהיה לכם נוח אם אני אדבר בעברית? אה?
19:08:46 <boily> olsner: so, did you have a diæ̈retic question?
19:09:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:09:34 <boily> Solain: I catch the 'hi hi' at the end, but the rest stumps me. I guess that's also a 'ha?', but I'm not sure.
19:11:09 <olsner> boily: yes, the coördinate (n) vs coördinate (v) thing
19:11:26 <olsner> both should work if either works, right?
19:12:15 <boily> Solain: you can hebrew, しかし僕は日本語で話しているwww^^
19:13:05 <olsner> speaking of words, I wonder who came up with moving the stress aroudn in excellent and excel
19:15:08 <boily> ain't the first “e” stressed?
19:16:27 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
19:17:16 <olsner> dictionary.com gives them as ik-*sel* and *ek*-suh-luhnt
19:18:36 <Roujo> Then again, it says "legit" is "luh-*git*", so meh
19:18:45 <Solain> you what is the main problem living in israel? no good books in hebrew nor english
19:18:57 <Roujo> Learn Japanese then
19:18:58 <Solain> they dont import any kind of books relating to computers
19:19:03 <olsner> Roujo: that is how it's said
19:19:07 <Solain> [22:18] <Solain> they dont import any kind of books relating to computers
19:19:17 <Roujo> Did you just quote yourself?
19:20:16 <Solain> i just clarified myself in this situation in praticular
19:20:58 <Roujo> olsner: In non-Canadia, mayhaps
19:23:09 <olsner> weird, how do canadians say legit then?
19:24:16 <Roujo> I just didn't say it that way for the longest time
19:24:31 <Roujo> Didn't help that I never heard it out lound until about 3 months ago
19:24:39 <Roujo> That was about a year ago
19:25:09 <olsner> oh, with a hard(?) g instead of j?
19:26:13 <Roujo> It's just that most French-Canadians I know didn't pronounce it right
19:26:27 <Roujo> Until they were exposed to it
19:26:31 <Roujo> Namely my friends and I =P
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19:26:54 <boily> I say «légitime». so there. hth.
19:27:34 <boily> (otherwise, if I'm forced to say it in English, then *leh*-djit.)
19:28:20 <olsner> I don't understand who says what how anymore
19:30:07 <Roujo> People talk, sounds come out, such is life in the valley
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19:34:51 <boily> olsner: it's easy. people say thing, and they usually understand each other. /se.bɛ̃.sẽp.lə.mɔ̃d.sə.diz.de.za.fäːʀ.pi.da.bi.ʦyd.i.sə.kɔ̃.pʀɛn/
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19:36:13 <boily> `relcome PixelToast
19:36:16 <HackEgo> PixelToast: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:37:46 <Roujo> boily: Oh god. I got it, but oh god.
19:38:08 <olsner> boily: phonetically written french is pretty hard to decipher
19:38:32 <olsner> diz = say, kɔ̃.pʀɛn = understand? plus a bunch of words inbetween?
19:38:40 <boily> Roujo: sorry, couldn't resist :D
19:38:56 <boily> (especially for «des afaaaèr»)
19:39:11 <Roujo> olsner: Pretty much, yeah
19:39:56 <olsner> impressive, me *pats self*
19:41:20 <boily> PixelToast: oh, you already were `relcommed. my bad.
19:41:51 <PixelToast> ive been relcommed 9 times, and WeLcOmEd 4 times, i forget what else
19:42:17 * Fiora looks up and sees that she was pinged about sushi
19:42:19 <Koen__> WeLcOmEd fell out of fashion some time ago, I reckon
19:43:26 <boily> Fiora: you have an usb sushi quote somewhere. how does IC sashimi taste like?
19:43:26 <Solain> did someone metion sushi
19:43:38 <Koen__> boily: I also understood what you said WITH THAT HORRIBLE ACCENT I'm not sure I should be proud of that
19:44:12 <HackEgo> RoUjO: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
19:44:19 <boily> Koen__: mwah ah ah. MWAH AH AH AH AH AH! ^^
19:45:02 <Fiora> boily: um. IC sashimi?
19:45:04 <boily> I know the [ʦ] isn't official anymore, but I was too lazy to tie t and s.
19:45:13 <HackEgo> 828) <monqy> what does it mean for a pencil to be turing complete.... <ais523> monqy: it's the same concept as USB sushi, really \ 829) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it \ 1049) <kmc> i think delivery sushi is one of those habits that can rapidly consume all of one's money <kmc> like cocaine \ 1059) <shachaf> the trou
19:45:13 <Solain> why is the robot typing like a homestuck character? not to mention a homestuck character who drives the bus
19:46:46 <Fiora> I.... don't think I've ever eaten USB sushi -_-
19:46:51 <HackEgo> 1059) <shachaf> the trouble with sushi is that it's often made of dead fish
19:47:00 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> the trouble with sushi is that it's often made of dead fish
19:47:17 <kmc> Fiora: ... do you highlight on 'sushi'?
19:47:49 <Fiora> kmc: someone pinged me
19:47:57 <Fiora> 10:05 <@elliott> Solain: fiora, is that you? :o
19:48:58 <kmc> Google translates that as "Sushi? Sushi? Sushi? Sushi?"
19:49:12 <boily> kmc: I was checking if Fiora was hilited.
19:49:58 <shachaf> the sous chef? she's shushing sushi
19:50:49 <boily> that sentence shall be known as the Shachaf Shongue Shwishter.
19:51:52 <HackEgo> Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose.
19:52:11 <boily> `learn Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose. She's a sous-chef who shushes sushi.
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19:52:58 <Fiora> I'm not good at making sushi -_-
19:53:10 <shachaf> are you good at shushing it
19:53:50 <Fiora> what does that even mean ._.
19:54:01 <shachaf> does sushi tend to talk when you're around
19:54:35 <shachaf> "don't eat me, Fiora! i used to be alive and have fish feelings!"
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19:54:39 <shachaf> that's what sushi says to me
19:55:43 <Fiora> I'm eating dead rice and dead avocado and dead seaweed too ;_;
19:55:59 <shachaf> yes, but who ever heard of talking rice
19:56:04 <olsner> shachaf: why does sushi call you Fiora?
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19:56:22 <shachaf> olsner: not sure. sushi doesn't tend to have eyes
19:56:49 <Koen__> therefore you must smell like Fiora
19:57:33 <boily> zzo38: who do you smell like? does vinegared dead fish talk to you? how do you feel at the sight of an USB stack?
19:58:33 <zzo38> I smell like me, I suppose. I don't think anything dead is talking to me.
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20:02:23 <Koen__> boily: you will note that he failed to address the third question
20:03:18 <Solain> talking rice people? this is almost as drunken goats
20:03:30 <boily> Koen__: that was subtly recorded and filed as soon as he answered. zzo38 is a very suspicious person already.
20:03:46 * boily SMACKS Solain with a penguin plushie
20:04:15 * Solain SMACKS boily with a broken hard drive
20:04:41 <Solain> only broken electronics
20:04:59 <Koen__> oh, in english you've got only one word for "suspicious" and "suspicious", right?
20:05:32 <Solain> koen, are you by any chance from israel?
20:05:33 <boily> Koen__: «suspicieux», I meant to say.
20:05:41 <zzo38> Yes, I know the English can have some confusing words (so can other languages, though)
20:05:54 <olsner> boily: is that the one as in likely to suspect other people? or the other one?
20:06:55 <Koen__> boily: I'm pretty sure you meant "suspect"
20:07:36 <boily> Koen__: I can't confirm or deny that assertion.
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20:11:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19463
20:14:14 <Solain> why am i there, i still cant comprehend what is so funny abot what i said
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20:14:55 <HackEgo> 1097) <Solain> im not a doctor when it comes to muscles
20:15:30 <oerjan> a clear side splitter, that
20:15:48 <Solain> i think i finally understood what is funny, i got confused between one profession and another
20:15:57 <zzo38> How do you mean I am "a very suspicious person already"? Do you have a clarification?
20:17:09 <Koen__> I'm afraid he wouldn't clarify or obfuscate that assertion
20:17:25 <HackEgo> 158) <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS
20:17:33 <oerjan> olsner: above statement may contain traces of sarcasm
20:18:44 <oerjan> i note that google's top suggestion for "may contain t" is "may contain traces of human flesh"
20:19:03 <oerjan> (for me, anyhow. maybe norwegians are just particularly gruesome.)
20:19:04 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 25m 48s ago: what is a level?
20:19:13 <Koen__> I think that's based on your search history oerjan
20:19:19 <zzo38> boily: In what context do you mean a level?
20:19:43 <oerjan> Koen__: O ... KAY ... SORRY, I MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU ALL NOW
20:19:43 <boily> zzo38: we were wondering why you always refered to level20.tex.
20:20:04 <boily> oerjan: no problem with that. you'll have to visit Canada!
20:20:12 <olsner> oerjan: that might just make your search history more gruesome
20:20:22 <oerjan> olsner: there is that.
20:20:23 <zzo38> boily: It is the starting experience level of this game.
20:20:45 <zzo38> (Due to level adjustment, our actual levels are lower than twenty)
20:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> <Solain> i think i finally understood what is funny, i got confused between one profession and another
20:21:32 <oerjan> Koen__: i thought it was only that personalized if you had a google account?
20:21:36 <boily> zzo38: oh. that clarifies many obscure corners of the thing.
20:21:55 <zzo38> boily: OK. What obscure corners do you mean, specifically?
20:22:05 <Solain> <Phantom_Hoover> doctors are meant to know about muscles... ;;;;; i wish i could explain myself in english, rather than hebrew
20:22:13 <oerjan> and otherwise was location based. wait, does that mean there's a serial killer nearby.
20:22:33 <Solain> i found some games coded on brainfuck, want links anyone?
20:22:46 <zzo38> Solain: Are they others than the one I already found?
20:23:10 * oerjan knows only of lost kingdom
20:23:37 <olsner> oerjan: pretty sure they track some stuff to a cookie even if you don't have an account, though not sure how detailed
20:24:41 <boily> zzo38: the ones we were discussing about, I guess. I don't know for sure, they were obscure.
20:24:56 <boily> (and some conjectures about the le-vel20 cipher.)
20:24:58 <oerjan> which, being perhaps the largest real bf program (although generated from basic) is a common interpreter/compiler damnmybrainismissingwordsagain
20:25:21 <zzo38> boily: It has nothing to do with some cipher; the file "level20.tex" is a Dungeons&Dragons game.
20:25:31 <olsner> oerjan: thingamabob? whatchamacallit?
20:25:34 <zzo38> (If you read it you should know why it is called that, actually)
20:26:03 <boily> zzo38: too logical.
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20:27:03 <oerjan> shachaf: please translate for Solain
20:27:23 <zzo38> boily: What is being too logical, and what is wrong with too logical?
20:27:44 <Solain> *i have no idea too lolz*
20:28:19 <zzo38> You could post the links (and/or titles of games) if you want to, I suppose
20:28:24 <oerjan> shachaf: anything he doesn't know how to explain in english
20:28:35 <boily> zzo38: logic goes counter to my laziness. reading the document would be too straightforward.
20:28:58 <Solain> we have advanced in technology, nowdays we have google translate for that, thank you for the offer anyway
20:29:04 <oerjan> olsner: no, i don't think those are the word.
20:29:12 <zzo38> boily: O, that's what you mean. Well, too bad, then. It cannot possibly be understood without reading it (I think).
20:29:13 <shachaf> Solain: Phantom_Hoover is saying some nonsense about monoids
20:29:26 <olsner> oerjan: I've heard it claimed that the bird is the word
20:29:27 <oerjan> Solain: but that only leaves you open to even more hilarious mistakes
20:29:39 <Solain> what should i make of this?
20:29:47 <boily> zzo38: I know I'm losing valuable information here, but tomorrow I'll have begun to think about procrastinating from reading it.
20:30:13 <zzo38> boily: What books do you read?
20:31:04 <Solain> the game names are: "taking over the world" ; "finally taking over the world" ; "the brainfucked lone wolf" ; link: http://fora.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=53146 bottom of the page
20:31:21 <zzo38> I know of "taking over the world" ; "finally taking over the world" games
20:31:24 <boily> zzo38: still trying to finish the Hyperion Cantos, but I got sidetracked with the Vorkosigan Saga lately.
20:31:30 <Koen__> oerjan: welllllllll hmmmmmm I'm pretty sure the suggestions google provides me with have evolved with what I've been searching for
20:32:01 <Koen__> I don't have a google account, and I flush all sessions / cookies / whatever every time I exit the browser
20:32:04 <Solain> btw oerjan, what kind of mistakes? the kind of dr,muscles?
20:32:54 <zzo38> boily: O, then read mine afterward.
20:33:02 <boily> zzo38: I'll copy it to my kobo.
20:33:28 <zzo38> Will kobo load this file? You can try, I suppose.
20:33:41 <zzo38> I don't know how kobo works so I wouldn't know
20:33:43 <Solain> oerjan IM LEARNING BILOGY AT SCHOOL, SO NAH
20:34:09 <kmc> Uncle Muscles Hour
20:34:11 <Solain> oerjan cross-cultural mistakes CAN and will happen
20:34:56 <olsner> oerjan: like in humoral medicine?
20:34:56 <boily> zzo38: I'm just going to pdflatex it, then copy it over through calibre.
20:36:22 <olsner> apparently the four humors are black bile, yellow bile, phlegm and blood
20:36:44 <zzo38> boily: I don't think that will work. I also don't know what calibre is. If you need PDF, try downloading "dungeonsrecording.tex" as well, run "tex level20", answer the question, and then DVI->PDF. (Maybe pdftex will work too, but that isn't guaranteed to work with anything other than the one true TeX.)
20:37:18 <boily> zzo38: oh hm. well. in that case, no kobo.
20:37:23 <zzo38> (You can also download the .DVI which is already compiled)
20:37:34 <oerjan> Solain: well that's ok, as long as you are prepared for the resulting puns.
20:37:35 <boily> (calibre is an e-reader library management software.)
20:37:46 <boily> zzo38: I think I'll go with the dvi.
20:38:01 <zzo38> If you have "pdflatex" then you probably have "tex" installed too; it comes standard with all TeX installations.
20:38:54 <boily> I have the original Pure TeX installed, but I tend to stay away from it. it scares me.
20:39:04 <zzo38> boily: Why does it scare you?
20:39:18 <Solain> you want me to type ping? test?
20:39:26 <Solain> i need to test lag somehow
20:39:29 <oerjan> Solain: hearing you loud and clear
20:40:01 <Solain> im not going to ping at the literal way
20:40:16 <oerjan> Solain: i pinged you. no autoresponse, though.
20:40:35 <boily> DR OM SOLAIN UR 559 KN
20:41:01 <oerjan> boily: did poor Solain get trapped in ~metar ?
20:42:10 <boily> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosigns_for_Morse_code
20:44:01 <olsner> boily: the page doesn't seem to provide enough information to decode your message
20:47:29 <boily> olsner: I told him that I receive him correctly, clear and loud.
20:47:41 <metasepia> CYUL 032000Z 23016KT 30SM FEW030TCU BKN065 22/14 A2970 RMK TCU2SC5 SLP057 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
20:47:51 <boily> oh, TCU again tonight! it's gonna be fun!
20:48:24 <olsner> boily: how did you end up learning about metar?
20:49:26 <boily> zzo38: towering cumulus. usually an indicator of incoming thunderstorms ☺
20:49:43 <boily> olsner: eeeeeh... probably one of many wikiwalks.
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21:03:43 <boily> General Question of Public Interest: who is cakeprophet?
21:04:23 <olsner> some sort of (past?) esoteric regular
21:04:40 <HackEgo> 112) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. \ 113) <fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be
21:05:35 <oerjan> not entirely past, but not here very often, and by a different nick (not here right now.)
21:05:49 <oerjan> well, not _talking_ very often, anyway.
21:07:01 <boily> oerjan: you mean some of the idlers is him in disguise?
21:10:39 <oerjan> although not at the moment, and i cannot quite remember when he was here last.
21:11:00 <HackEgo> 2013-08-05 23:26:00: <kallisti> good times.
21:11:21 <HackEgo> 2013-09-03 21:11:17: <olsner> `seen olsner
21:11:25 <oerjan> elliott: i was trying not to mention his nick, not that it is particularly secret.
21:11:32 <HackEgo> 2013-08-31 19:31:49: <ais523> Happy Australian Mailman Mailing List Reminders Day!
21:11:46 <HackEgo> Thanks, elliott. Thelliott.
21:12:55 <boily> I found another way to make LaTeX choke: ◇.
21:13:19 <oerjan> REVERSE ASPHYXIATION SYMBOL
21:15:34 <boily> `quote \emph{Bike is from Luxembourg.}\footnote{Note that Bike's eyes in quote 1018
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21:19:12 <olsner> that doesn't prevent blaming boily
21:19:19 <boily> lets see if it happens again...
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21:19:24 <boily> `quote \emph{Bike is from Luxembourg.}\footnote{Note that Bike's eyes in quote 1018
21:19:39 <boily> `quote 117) <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
21:19:40 <olsner> now remove it and input the real quote
21:19:40 <HackEgo> grep: unmatched parentheses
21:19:54 <boily> oooooh, unsanitized grep input!
21:20:15 <boily> (as you can see, I'm processing the quote db for inclusion in the wisdom.)
21:21:23 <oerjan> boily: the numbers are not part of the quote.
21:21:38 <oerjan> (thus the numbering can change btw)
21:22:40 <boily> time to vim macro the fungot out of those quotes... (except quotes with fungot. he's kinda important for those one.)
21:22:40 <fungot> boily:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
21:23:03 <olsner> boily: was that an expletive fungot?
21:23:03 <fungot> olsner: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going fast and such an apparently non-standard format is being dimensioned by assigning dimensions to them; and sets. maybe thats what them meant by experimental selected so it probably no longer the wand the better part made mercie, i should think at least, that is expressions which have not been able to
21:24:27 <oerjan> hitting every stupid person: a mindless game.
21:25:16 <olsner> that, and fast people are being dimensioned by assigning dimensions to them
21:25:18 <boily> olsner: I think fizzie partially tolerates that practice.
21:25:25 <fungot> olsner: c has an ignore restarter, restart/ ignore do? the symbols, pairs, procedures, and so am i just being anal here or am i misunderstanding how these were the people skills of a plane
21:25:57 <Bike> fungot seems to be a bit fixated on this asshole thing
21:25:57 <fungot> Bike: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen. i see no sense
21:26:41 * boily pokes fungot with an auricular drumstick
21:26:41 <fungot> boily: it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave? fnord 06:22, 29, no. 2, 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 1(::**) ...bad insn!
21:31:20 <boily> olsner: the same one that went into solain's ear.
21:31:42 <olsner> I missed that, I think
21:33:43 <boily> `quote but at what cost
21:33:45 <HackEgo> 862) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc!
21:33:55 <boily> ... quote is causing me some problems.
21:34:16 <boily> problems that will be solved tomorrow. I want sushis.
21:34:19 <olsner> due to bold or due to );});});?
21:34:28 <boily> the latter. bold is easy.
21:34:40 -!- boily has quit (Quit: 寿司！).
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21:34:46 <olsner> ... but putting }s in text is hard?
21:38:55 <HackEgo> slist phonecall: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:41:53 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see the olist
21:43:35 <Taneb> Fiora, help I don't like where it is going
21:43:53 <Fiora> I very very much like where this is going :3
21:44:09 <oerjan> shachaf: yes that's as far as i've got logreading yet
21:48:40 <shachaf> Taneb, Fiora, oerjan: I like where this is going!
21:49:08 <Taneb> shachaf, but Aranea is being evil!
21:49:37 <shachaf> more like tarquin is being evil
21:49:48 <Bike> yeah, what th hell, tarquin
21:49:51 <shachaf> but that's just what he does
21:50:22 <shachaf> he just, like, killed his own son, man
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21:51:05 <kmc> shachaf: apparently you can't write a destructor for an enum, either
21:52:03 <shachaf> why should an enum be treated differently from a struct in that regard
21:53:08 <Taneb> shachaf, but Aranea is plotting to destroy an entire universe to prevent the creation of one person!
21:53:38 <Taneb> Well, less "destroy" and more "render infertile"
21:53:46 <kmc> shachaf: beats me
21:53:47 <Taneb> Aranea is plotting to neuter an entire universe!
21:54:52 <zzo38> Why do you expect that to even work? It won't prevent the creation of a person if it is the universe which is being destroyed.
21:54:53 <Taneb> shachaf, it's homestuck.
21:55:03 <Bike> imo, zzo should destroy the universe.
21:55:06 <shachaf> imo it's not a universe if there's more than one
21:55:07 <Taneb> there's at least three universes
21:55:57 <zzo38> Why should anyone destroy the universe?
21:56:12 <zzo38> Furthermore, *how* should anyone destroy the universe?
21:56:19 <Bike> i don't know zzo, you're the one doing it.
21:56:35 <shachaf> zzo38: you don't know the answers to those questions?
21:56:37 <shachaf> imo you better get on that
21:57:05 <zzo38> Also, it wouldn't help.
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21:59:18 <zzo38> I read about destroying the Earth before, but I don't think we should destroy any planets.
22:00:08 <Bike> what about the planet of the earth-destroyers
22:00:17 <zzo38> Anyways, it isn't desoying the universe.
22:00:56 <zzo38> Don't destroy that planet either. (Hopefully it won't collide with the Earth.)
22:01:11 <zzo38> Destroying the universe is different anyways; you cannot destroy the universe by destroying its parts.
22:08:02 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i wonder if they will have to escape this attack by entering the gate
22:10:45 <zzo38> The universe cannot be created or destroyed. Mathematics is the only thing that is real.
22:10:58 <Bike> well, destroy mathematics, then
22:11:09 <zzo38> Impossible. Mathematics cannot be destroyed either.
22:11:36 <Bike> that's not very real of it
22:12:05 <oerjan> zzo38: i think the universe may have a knack for mercilessly ignoring your opinion on how it works
22:12:23 <zzo38> oerjan: I think you are correct, but that doesn't change it.
22:12:38 <zzo38> Because it is also ignoring *your* opinion on how it works.
22:12:59 <Bike> the universe sounds like kind of a dick
22:14:10 <zzo38> No, you are mix up. Universe is the, made of spacetime, and of mathematics; not "kind of a dick" and so on.
22:15:37 <Bike> i'm just saying, if this dude is ignoring some cool guys like you maybe it has some emotional issues.
22:19:22 <olsner> "the universe" is not a "dude"
22:19:59 <Bike> not a literal dude.
22:20:03 <Bike> but, like, a dude dude.
22:20:17 <olsner> that character in the big lebowski?
22:20:17 <zzo38> What does that mean?
22:20:32 <Bike> that the universe is a dude but not a dude dude, dude.
22:25:47 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> No, you are mix up. Universe is the, made of spacetime, and of mathematics; not "kind of a dick" and so on.
22:25:51 <HackEgo> 1099) <zzo38> No, you are mix up. Universe is the, made of spacetime, and of mathematics; not "kind of a dick" and so on.
22:25:58 <kmc> do you think this kind of zzo38-quote is fair game
22:26:08 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know.
22:28:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/goat*: No such file or directory
22:28:32 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/goat{s,}
22:28:42 <olsner> only one wisdom? that is absurd, goats are full of wisdoms
22:28:49 <HackEgo> Goats are drunk 24/7, ask Solain for details.
22:29:07 <oerjan> olsner: there's also a unicode goat wisdom, but you have to know how to get to it
22:31:33 <HackEgo> botlops \ chess \ devious \ doodads \ for further details \ friends \ gonads \ inverness \ lens \ logs \ lystrosaurus \ maths \ monoids \ oceans \ qdbrules \ ssstosis \ the us \ this \ torus \ united states \ welcome.es \ west midlands \ zomgmodules
22:31:52 <HackEgo> ssstosis is a disease causing false identities
22:32:47 <HackEgo> The pacific ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The atlantic ocean is less cool than its giant underwater moutain range. The arctic ocean is cold. The indian ocean is full of typhoons and non-eurocentric shipping.
22:33:13 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/ocean{s,}
22:33:31 <HackEgo> botlops are the core of botsentiences. Sapience is scheduled for the next release.
22:33:38 <HackEgo> 🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat.)
22:33:41 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/botlop{s,}
22:33:45 -!- PixelToast has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:34:15 <HackEgo> Friends make graphs together / La la la la
22:34:20 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/friend{s,}
22:34:51 <HackEgo> maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin
22:35:03 <oerjan> hm this one might be bad to move.
22:35:27 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
22:35:29 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
22:35:58 <oerjan> `run ? gonad; ? gonads
22:36:00 <HackEgo> gonad? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ gonads are the best punctional fondlegramming squishcture.
22:36:10 <olsner> `? wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
22:36:11 <HackEgo> wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:36:15 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/gonad{s,}
22:37:07 <HackEgo> chess \ devious \ doodads \ for further details \ inverness \ lens \ logs \ lystrosaurus \ maths \ monoids \ qdbrules \ ssstosis \ the us \ this \ torus \ united states \ welcome.es \ west midlands \ zomgmodules
22:37:27 <oerjan> `run ? doodad; ? doodads
22:37:27 -!- jaril has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1).
22:37:29 <HackEgo> Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors. \ Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors.
22:38:19 <oerjan> i think the rest are not sensible to move.
22:38:57 <HackEgo> maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin
22:40:32 <HackEgo> everyone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:40:45 <olsner> wisdom is full of wonders
22:41:11 <HackEgo> \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯\\\?\\\ \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯
22:41:12 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
22:41:58 <HackEgo> cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; \ fi
22:42:11 <oerjan> nothing to explain that everyone
22:42:17 <olsner> does caliphornia have a caliph?
22:43:57 <oerjan> oh putty doesn't show end of line space
22:44:48 <olsner> xchat doesn't seem to either, but I can still enter it even though it disappears as soon as I send
22:46:58 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe they'll die instead
22:47:05 <olsner> hmm, no, it does normal trailing spaces ... only interesting spaces get lost?
22:47:06 <shachaf> oerjan: but entering the gate seems p. likely
22:48:04 <olsner> `? ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚�͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞
22:48:06 <HackEgo> ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚�͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:48:44 <olsner> `? _͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚%CD͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞
22:48:45 <HackEgo> _͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚%CD͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:50:36 <olsner> it can if you want it to
22:51:22 <oerjan> shachaf: i suppose none of them has a standing prophecy that they _will_ survive. (and of course belkar has one that he won't. as did durkon _but_...)
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22:53:34 <oerjan> i note myndzi didn't even _try_ to work with those.
22:53:46 <oerjan> `? are you alive myndzi
22:53:48 <HackEgo> are you alive myndzi ? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:53:52 <shachaf> oerjan: well, i'm told elan will have a happy ending
22:53:58 <Koen__> urrrrrrrrrh there's ink dripping all over my screen
22:53:59 <shachaf> oerjan: or did he already get that?
22:54:19 <oerjan> shachaf: that's a question, but elan is not among those attacked.
22:54:59 <HackEgo> Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
22:55:11 <Bike> way to spoil it, oerjan
22:56:08 <olsner> did someone expunge england or just the information about england?
22:56:49 <Bike> mention distinction HELLO ENTER KEY WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG
22:57:29 <HackEgo> You are probably using one right now!
22:57:46 <oerjan> Bike: probably placed it too close to - ?
22:59:02 <oerjan> `learn Sleep is for the weak.
23:01:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i thought sleep was for the week
23:05:26 <kmc> awesome, in rust you can do '\n'*'\n' and the result is 'd'
23:05:53 <Bike> it says "awesome" right there man
23:06:11 <Bike> oh, is it just multiplying the codepoints
23:06:18 <Bike> can you do that in c?
23:06:40 <nooodl> http://codepad.org/KecUhf9d
23:06:55 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse.
23:08:00 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
23:09:44 <Fiora> `learn Nepeta Leijon is the maintainer of the official Alternian shipping wall.
23:10:44 <HackEgo> Nepeta Leijon is the maintainer of the official Alternian shipping wall.
23:12:52 <shachaf> Fiora: does nepeta endoship
23:13:10 <shachaf> maybe that's not the right word
23:13:17 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/nepeta{,' leijon'}
23:13:43 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:14:02 <shachaf> the question was whether she ships herself
23:15:34 <Fiora> http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130316230515/mspaintadventures/images/2/2c/EquiusSeekTheHighblood-NepetaShippingWall.gif see the top left
23:16:53 <shachaf> maybe endoshipping would be shipping someone with themselves
23:17:23 <Bike> well, she does that too, in that very same gif, with karkat (around the club symbol)
23:17:30 <Phantom_Hoover> for someone who hates homestuck you are leading yourself down a line of enquiry which will tell you far more about it than you ever wanted to know
23:17:43 <Fiora> top left is nepeta x karkat (her crush)
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23:17:56 <oerjan> <Roujo> `run echo An ambitiöus new Esolanger who, although underage, is eager to learn. > wisdom/Solain
23:18:19 <Bike> nepeta leijon is an accomplished master of category theory, it just never comes up in the comic due to time constraints
23:18:24 <Jafet> Is that an innuendomorphism
23:19:00 <Bike> gory cat theory, yes
23:19:35 <Bike> i guess that does come up in the comic
23:21:35 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | grep '[A-Z]'
23:21:37 <HackEgo> aah \ ais523 \ america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bc \ bicategory \ bienvenue \ bigchar \ bike \ bird \ boily \ bonvenon \ bookwatching \ botlop \ braid theory \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ c \ cakeprophet \ california \ caps lock \ cat \ category \ category-helpdesk \ category theory \ cello \ certainly \ certai
23:22:12 <oerjan> since when is grep case insensitive by default :(
23:23:17 <oerjan> `run echo TEST | grep '[a-z]'
23:23:24 <oerjan> `run echo TEST | grep -i '[a-z]'
23:24:58 <oerjan> and secondly, how do you turn it off.
23:25:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
23:25:58 <Roujo> `run cat wisdom/boily wisdom/cat
23:25:59 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. \ Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
23:25:59 <zzo38> Is there some environment variable or shell alias which affects it?
23:26:06 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: alias: grep: not found
23:26:08 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
23:26:15 <HackEgo> cat: cat: No such file or directory
23:26:22 <HackEgo> bash: cat:: command not found
23:26:24 <oerjan> `run printenv | grep -i grep
23:26:27 <Jafet> `run for grep in grep fgrep egrep; do echo $grep; echo TEST | $grep '[a-z]'; done
23:26:29 <HackEgo> grep \ TEST \ fgrep \ egrep \ TEST
23:26:29 <HackEgo> cat: cat:: No such file or directory \ cat: cat: No such file or directory
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23:28:25 <HackEgo> TERM=linux \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ SHLVL=0 \ HOME=/tmp
23:28:41 <HackEgo> TERM=linux \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ HOME=/tmp \ SHLVL=1 \ _=/usr/bin/printenv
23:29:40 <oerjan> `run echo TEST | LANG= grep '[a-z]'
23:29:50 <oerjan> `run echo TEST | LANG=C grep '[a-z]'
23:30:05 <oerjan> localization is evil :(
23:30:23 <zzo38> I always use "LANG=C" myself when working on UNIX systems
23:33:00 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
23:33:34 <Jafet> `run echo TEST | grep '[[:lower:]]'
23:33:38 <doesthiswork> I checked out a book from the university library about "Fril" which is like prolog with fuzzy sets
23:34:43 <oerjan> zzo38: people asked Gregor to set a different one.
23:35:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Why? I think always "LANG=C" should be used.
23:36:43 <oerjan> zzo38: it broke unicode stuff, or something.
23:37:20 <oerjan> `run echo TEST | LANG=en_US.UTF-8 grep '[a-z]'
23:37:28 <zzo38> If you require Unicode, can "C.UTF-8" work?
23:37:29 <oerjan> ok that's just as broken.
23:37:54 <zzo38> (I still thing "LANG=C" is better, without the Unicode specification)
23:38:06 <Jafet> `run echo ZZZ | grep '[a-z]'
23:43:06 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print [chr(i) for i in range(255)]' | tr -cd '[a-z]'
23:43:08 <HackEgo> [xxxxxxxxxtnxbxcrxexfxxxxxxxxxxxaxbxcxdxexf[]abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzxfxxxxxxxxxxxaxbxcxdxexfxxxxxxxxxxxaxbxcxdxexfxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaaxabxacxadxaexafxbxbxbxbxbxbxbxbxbxbxbaxbbxbcxbdxbexbfxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcaxcbxccxcdxcexcfxdxdxdxdxdxdxdxdxdxdxdaxdbxdcxddxdexdfxexexexexexexexexexexeaxebxecxedxeexefxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfaxfbxfcxfdxfe]
23:44:35 <oerjan> i have doubts that's what you wanted
23:45:02 <oerjan> but i am guessing it has to do with it affecting collating order, not actual case insensitivity
23:45:27 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print "".join(chr(i) for i in range(255))' | tr -cd 'a-z'
23:45:28 <HackEgo> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
23:46:09 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print "".join(chr(i) for i in range(255))' | grep -o '[a-z]'
23:46:11 <HackEgo> Binary file (standard input) matches
23:46:17 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print "".join(chr(i) for i in range(255))' | grep -o '[a-z]' -a
23:46:19 <HackEgo> a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
23:48:39 <oerjan> `run python -c 'for i in range(255): print chr(i)' | grep '[a-z]'
23:48:41 <HackEgo> Binary file (standard input) matches
23:49:16 <Jafet> `run python -c 'for i in range(32, 127): print chr(i)' | grep '[a-z]'
23:49:18 <HackEgo> A \ B \ C \ D \ E \ F \ G \ H \ I \ J \ K \ L \ M \ N \ O \ P \ Q \ R \ S \ T \ U \ V \ W \ X \ Y \ a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
23:49:26 <Jafet> `run python -c 'for i in range(32, 127): print chr(i)' | grep '[a-z]' -a
23:49:28 <HackEgo> A \ B \ C \ D \ E \ F \ G \ H \ I \ J \ K \ L \ M \ N \ O \ P \ Q \ R \ S \ T \ U \ V \ W \ X \ Y \ a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
23:49:51 <Jafet> `run python -c 'for i in range(255): print chr(i)' | grep '[a-z]' -a
23:49:53 <HackEgo> A \ B \ C \ D \ E \ F \ G \ H \ I \ J \ K \ L \ M \ N \ O \ P \ Q \ R \ S \ T \ U \ V \ W \ X \ Y \ a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
23:50:10 <Jafet> `run python -c 'for i in range(255): print chr(i)' | grep -o '[a-z]' -a
23:50:12 <HackEgo> a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
23:50:32 <oerjan> `run python -c 'for i in range(32, 127): print chr(i)' | sort
23:50:41 <oerjan> `run python -c 'for i in range(32, 127): print chr(i)' | sort
23:50:43 <HackEgo> ` \ ^ \ ~ \ < \ = \ > \ | \ \ _ \ - \ , \ ; \ : \ ! \ ? \ / \ . \ ' \ " \ ( \ ) \ [ \ ] \ { \ } \ @ \ $ \ * \ \ \ & \ # \ % \ + \ 0 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ a \ A \ b \ B \ c \ C \ d \ D \ e \ E \ f \ F \ g \ G \ h \ H \ i \ I \ j \ J \ k \ K \ l \ L \ m \ M \ n \ N \ o \ O \ p \ P \ q \ Q \ r \ R \ s \ S \ t \ T \ u \ U \ v \ V \
23:51:46 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:55:18 <Jafet> `run python -c 'for i in range(32,127): print chr(i)' | grep -o '[a-z]'
23:55:19 <HackEgo> a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
23:59:18 <^v> `i hate python
23:59:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: i: not found
23:59:22 <zzo38> I have seen the term "library" used in reference to pokemon card game just once, and in that case it is capitalized too for some reason.
00:09:42 -!- Koen__ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
00:12:23 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; ls -1 | grep '[:upper:]'
00:12:25 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
00:12:36 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | grep '[:upper:]'
00:12:38 <HackEgo> america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bicategory \ bienvenue \ bigchar \ bike \ bird \ bonvenon \ botlop \ braid theory \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ cakeprophet \ california \ caps lock \ category \ category-helpdesk \ category theory \ cello \ certainly \ certainty \ chess \ claustrophobia \ cocoonspirator \ coffe
00:13:07 <oerjan> there is weird, and there is broken. this is broken.
00:14:45 <Jafet> I am annoyed that oerjan has decided to annoy people
00:14:47 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | LANG= grep '[:upper:]'
00:14:49 <HackEgo> america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bicategory \ bienvenue \ bigchar \ bike \ bird \ bonvenon \ botlop \ braid theory \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ cakeprophet \ california \ caps lock \ category \ category-helpdesk \ category theory \ cello \ certainly \ certainty \ chess \ claustrophobia \ cocoonspirator \ coffe
00:14:57 -!- ^v has changed nick to ^onrv.
00:15:17 -!- ^onrv has changed nick to ^v.
00:15:22 <Jafet> `run ls /bin | grep '[[:upper:]]'
00:15:23 <oerjan> Jafet: i have no idea why this prints those lines
00:16:03 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | LANG=C grep '[A-Z]'
00:16:05 <HackEgo> Roujo's relevant info \ wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
00:18:53 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/{R,r}"oujo's relevant info"
00:19:02 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | LANG=C grep '[A-Z]'
00:19:04 <HackEgo> wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
00:19:38 <oerjan> Jafet: it's not my fault that grep with a locale completely ignores the intended meaning of [:upper:]
00:20:32 <Jafet> `run echo TEST | grep '[[:upper:]]'
00:20:38 <Jafet> `run echo TEST | grep '[[:lower:]]'
00:21:41 * oerjan swats himself -----###
00:29:09 <zzo38> I have read somewhere of "Rochester poker", where you make a poker hand like you draft cards in Magic: the Gathering.
00:29:21 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
00:29:30 <Roujo> I don't know what I expected
00:29:47 <zzo38> Roujo: I have seen that joke before, in some book
00:30:46 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
00:30:47 <Roujo> `run echo ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ Your dongers. Raise them. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ > wisdom/ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
00:31:17 <Roujo> I'm impressed at the amount of characters filenames can take
00:34:05 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:38:19 <kmc> I think in "native" UNIX filesystems you can have any byte except 0x00 or 0x2F ('/') and it doesn't much care what encoding they conform to, either
00:38:25 <oerjan> hm cephalopod shortage
00:39:51 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, but presumably there are UTF-8 characters encoded with a 0x2f?
00:40:09 <shachaf> 0x2f is only used to encode the character 0x2f
00:40:48 <zzo38> UTF-8 follows the Principle of Extended ASCII, so it means all ASCII codes always correspond to themself.
00:41:51 <kmc> such is the genius of the prophet ken thompson
00:42:45 <zzo38> Some programs using UTF-8 fail to follow the Principle of Extended ASCII, however.
01:24:43 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> my contract states right here that I have to tell you the best version of python is called haskell 2010
01:24:47 <HackEgo> 1100) <elliott> my contract states right here that I have to tell you the best version of python is called haskell 2010
01:25:22 <zzo38> Don't confuse Python with Haskell.
01:25:44 <oerjan> zzo38: it's not confusion it's a joke
01:26:22 <zzo38> Yes, it is a joke, you may not be confusing things, but you still shouldn't confuse it (regardless of whether or not you do).
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01:36:04 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:43:15 <Sgeo> `slist if you haven't seen the one from a few hours ago
01:43:17 <HackEgo> slist if you haven't seen the one from a few hours ago: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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01:47:02 <mad> it's so hard to come up with an architecture that's simple and efficient
01:47:11 <mad> and not just end up with another MIPS clone
01:47:27 <Bike> that's why they pay people big bux for doing so, i guess!
01:47:28 <zzo38> mad: It does seems so.
01:47:39 <mad> I've ended up with
01:47:42 <mad> mov add sub cmp ucp mul
01:47:42 <mad> and or xor lsr lsl asr
01:47:42 <mad> ld ldh ldb lds ldc st sth stb
01:47:42 <mad> jz jnz jp jl jr sys
01:47:54 <zzo38> OK, now describe it
01:48:14 <mad> all instructions are opcode rd, rx, ry/#immediate
01:48:19 <mad> except jumps
01:48:26 <mad> where rd = destination register
01:48:32 <mad> rx = source register 1
01:48:53 <mad> ry/#immediate = source 2 is either a register, or an immediate
01:49:12 <zzo38> What are the registers, then? What are the other features?
01:49:39 <mad> registers are... r0..r15 or r0..r31, haven't decided on 16 vs 32 yet
01:50:01 <zzo38> Also describe exact function of instructions.
01:50:29 <mad> mov add sub mul and or xor lsr lsl asr are exactly what you'd expect
01:50:39 <zzo38> OK, that is expected.
01:51:07 <zzo38> What are others, though?
01:51:44 <mad> cmp does a signed comparison between two registers and writes 0 if rx is smaller than ry, and... -1 if it's larger (or it could be 1, I'm not sure which is better, MIPS goes for 1)
01:52:04 <mad> ucp is the same thing but with unsigned comparison
01:52:55 <mad> ld is 32 bit load, source #2 is shifted 2 bits left and added to source #1 and then the aligned data at that address is loaded
01:53:27 <zzo38> Both using -1 and using +1 can be useful for different reasons (for C compiling, you should use +1; for BASIC, you should use -1; Forth tends to use -1 too)
01:53:38 <mad> ldh lds are 16bit, unsigned and signed, source #2 is shifted 1 bit
01:54:06 <mad> ldb ldc are 8bit, unsigned and signed, source #2 isn't shifted
01:54:36 <mad> st sth stb are stores (32bit, 16bit, 8bit respectively, source #2 is shifted the right amount of bits)
01:54:52 <zzo38> Is it source #2 which is signed?
01:55:05 <mad> no it's the data loaded from memory
01:55:22 <zzo38> So it is sign extended.
01:55:28 <mad> yes of course
01:56:11 <mad> jz checks if a register is 0, and jumps to an immediate offset if yes (signed offset relative to the instruction)
01:56:25 <mad> jnz is same but for register != 0
01:56:54 <mad> jp is same but always jumps (and might have a larger immediate but is still relative to PC)
01:57:41 <mad> jl is the same but it writes the value of the PC to a register (probably r14 or r30, ARM uses r13)
01:58:00 <mad> jr jumps to the memory address in a register
01:58:18 <mad> so returning from a function is effectively jr r14
01:58:38 <zzo38> If the PC is also one of the registers, do you need jr instruction?
01:58:51 <mad> PC is not a named register
01:59:06 <mad> not orthogonal enough
01:59:21 <mad> ARM had that (PC = r15) and regretted it
01:59:50 <zzo38> I do suppose having the number for PC register can be messing up caching
02:00:18 <mad> irl on a typical pipeline the PC will be at least a couple cycles off
02:00:47 <mad> and once the design becomes superscalar with branch prediction the relationship becomes even crazier
02:00:52 <mad> not worth it
02:00:53 <zzo38> I think explicit pipelining and caching should be better though
02:01:06 <pikhq> zzo38: I didn't peg you for a fan of Itanic.
02:01:37 <mad> explicit pipelining sounds like a bad plan to me but I'm not familiar with the concept
02:02:47 <mad> how do you explicit pipeline a cpu anyways
02:02:50 <zzo38> I think not implementing it at all would be better than having it automatic
02:05:12 <mad> the thing with the PC is that it lives in a completely different part of the pipeline
02:05:50 <mad> and also it needs its own read/write ports
02:05:57 <zzo38> One thing that might be done is having a microcode memory partially ROM and partially RAM, and then your program is running in there (there can be more than one microcode core, for parallel execution of some instructions), which can use the data RAM in the microcode for caching; you can then which which microcode memory spaces are address and data.
02:06:10 <zzo38> (I mean which are program and data)
02:06:44 <mad> I'm pretty sure you gain nothing from conflating the PC with the other registers
02:07:05 <zzo38> Therefore it is not quite harvard, because you can swap the program with the data
02:07:38 <mad> I'd definitively keep instruction cache and microcode separate
02:07:52 <mad> and data cache too
02:08:00 <pikhq> mad: Except when you're dealing in emulation. Then the PC is best considered another register.
02:08:16 <mad> pikhq: true
02:08:18 <pikhq> Of course, nobody designs ISAs around emulators. :)
02:08:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Except for Z-machine
02:08:33 <mad> for emulators I'd still keep the PC separate
02:08:47 <mad> actually for emulators I'd go for total hardvard architecture
02:08:52 <pikhq> zzo38: I mean "CPU ISAs" obviously.
02:09:16 <pikhq> zzo38: Obviously VMs are designed all the time. :)
02:09:19 <mad> and probably even separate the return address stack from everything else
02:09:35 <pikhq> mad: Hmm. True, this would make some aspects a lot simpler.
02:10:12 <pikhq> Namely, any sort of optimization of the VM beyond naive intepretation.
02:10:19 <mad> also I'd remove the "register jump" and replace it with "indirect jump with a look up table" or something like that
02:10:28 <mad> so that all the jumps can be easily retargetted
02:10:50 <mad> to make sure you can relatively easy JIT recompile your code
02:10:54 <mad> so that it runs fast
02:11:18 <pikhq> You can get fairly impressive performance from an interpreter if you're quite careful in its design.
02:11:49 <zzo38> Well, I think Z-machine is well designed (that is, the one Infocom designed)
02:11:50 <mad> "you get 7 registers" "why" "cause that's how many fits in the x86 recompiled code"
02:12:32 <pikhq> The secret is to have an indirect jump at the end of each instruction's code so the branch predictor doesn't do literally 100% misprediction.
02:12:48 <pikhq> Still mispredicts a lot, obviously, but hey.
02:13:08 <mad> actually it might be possible to shuffle the stack pointer around in some less important register and get 8 registers
02:13:28 <mad> pikhq : oh that's a nice idea actually
02:13:41 <pikhq> I've done it. It helps quite a bit.
02:13:46 <mad> kinda wondering how to get msvc to compile that kind of code
02:13:59 <pikhq> Ah, the answer there is "don't".
02:14:13 <pikhq> Or, alternately, have a switch statement in a macro. :)
02:14:53 <mad> yeah I have to check if MSVC compiles it to multiple return statements or a single one
02:15:44 <pikhq> Also, re: x86 registers. Though inconvenient you could honestly use the floating point register stack for a few more registers.
02:16:15 <mad> I'm not sure that would be any faster than just using memory for the overflow registers
02:16:34 <pikhq> Keep in mind that you can actually do integer arithmetic with those registers.
02:16:58 <mad> I'm not sure there's any opcodes for transferring data to/from normal registrers to FPU ones
02:17:12 <mad> though there are some for MMX registers and SSE ones I think
02:18:30 <mad> for a CPU with dynamic microcode, you really want the microcode to be in a separate bank than instruction and data cache
02:19:00 <mad> otherwise you have to share your access ports between the microcode and data cache
02:19:18 <mad> which divides your throughput and increases the width of your multiplexers
02:19:22 <mad> so it's like double bad
02:21:02 <mad> I'm not sure it's possible to design a fast cpu with dynamic microcode either
02:21:18 <pikhq> Doesn't seem there's an instruction for transferring to/from normal registers, no.
02:21:36 <zzo38> mad: Well, it isn't fast if the program isn't written in microcodes.
02:21:53 <zzo38> I don't know; I still want to simplify it by having the microcode being the only cache (there can still be a separate program and data cache, and you can switch which one is program and which one is data)
02:23:16 <pikhq> Probably simplest to just go via MMX.
02:23:17 <mad> you're not simplifying it
02:23:26 <mad> if you make it the same as some other thing
02:23:49 <mad> because if you make them separate, then you can simply make everything read 1 data on every cycle
02:23:53 <zzo38> The program cache I mean is only the microcode program cache though
02:23:55 <mad> 1 instruction per cycle
02:24:06 <mad> 1 memory read per cycle
02:24:15 <mad> 1 microcode access per cycle
02:24:35 <mad> if you conflate, say, the data cache and microcode cache
02:24:53 <mad> then you have to decide on each cycle who gets to read from it
02:25:11 <zzo38> That isn't what I am doing, as I am specifying
02:26:45 <mad> you mean like the instruction cache contains microcode instead of instructions?
02:29:33 <mad> that's actually not a bad idea
02:29:39 <mad> pentium 4 did that
02:29:42 <zzo38> The microcode ROM would load the rest of the microcode program from the external ROM and then switch to the other bank.
02:30:24 <zzo38> A microcode program would then be unable to modify itself directly; you would have to load a program into the other bank which modifies this one, instead.
02:31:01 <zzo38> (This is also the only way for the microcode program to read itself)
02:32:13 <zzo38> I don't know if any computer does this, but I like it
02:32:37 <mad> you have to look up on how the pentium 4 did its trace cache
02:34:33 <mad> and how the crusoe did its crazy stuff
02:38:06 <zzo38> What similarities and differences is there from what I wrote about?
02:38:49 <mad> the crusoe is some kind of VLIW with 128bit opcodes
02:39:02 <mad> but the first thing it does is load up some x86 emulator
02:39:34 <mad> then it dynamically translates x86 code into its VLIW instruction set as it goes along
02:39:45 <mad> you never get access to the VLIW core
02:40:18 <^v> i am sooooo ||ed
02:40:55 <mad> it reserves something like 512k for the VLIW operation
02:41:16 <mad> and it has all sorts of insane stuff to keep the emulation running smooth
02:41:35 <mad> like explicit memory anti-aliasing instructions
02:42:26 <mad> the pentium 4 is a lot more sane
02:47:17 <zzo38> But do any have the only cache being microcode cache, there are two of them and you can switch between which is program and which is data?
02:49:00 <zzo38> Then make such thing
02:49:02 <mad> being able to switch would add extra multiplexers in the cpu
02:49:05 <mad> and make it slower
02:49:27 <mad> also, switching would probably require a pipeline flush
02:50:09 <zzo38> Yes, I can understand those things
02:51:15 <zzo38> Although I was thinking of not even having a pipeline, and furthermore the user program is written in microcodes therefore it isn't as slow
02:51:39 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
02:52:10 <zzo38> Any pipeline it does have is explicitly programmed using multi cores; there would be no implicit pipelining
02:54:25 <mad> the general problem with explicit pipelining is that it's very hard to process a clean interrupt on that
02:55:02 <mad> afaik you have to freeze everything and then empty all the multiple cycle versions of everything
02:57:34 <mad> MIPS etc had these problems
02:57:41 <mad> like on branch delay slots
02:58:35 <pikhq> Branch delay slots. Sigh.
02:58:39 <pikhq> Such a wonky idea.
02:58:41 <mad> and I think the first few MIPS had some bugs on when interrupts happened on the same cycle as branches
02:59:20 <mad> pikhq : it's sorta worth it when you're at 1 instruction per cycle and you don't have a branch target buffer
02:59:36 <zzo38> Just ignore that stuff and you instead implement it in the user program.
02:59:42 <mad> but then when you become superscalar with a branch predictor you regret it
03:00:17 <mad> MIPS is mostly an embedded CPU nowadays so it might have been good for them overall
03:01:19 <zzo38> Don't add superscalar, branch prediction, and all that stuff; implement static prediction in the parts of the user program which are written in microcodes.
03:02:07 <zzo38> You can also implement the other things using that, and using multi core microcodes (they do not all have to be equivalent cores)
03:02:43 <mad> on a design like that you're probably better of handling interrupts on a separate CPU
03:03:09 <mad> when an interrupt happens, completely freeze the larger configurable core
03:03:35 <mad> have a smaller specialized core correctly save/restore the state and handle interrupts
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03:03:53 <zzo38> Yes, you could do that
03:06:00 <mad> what sort of code do you want to run?
03:06:35 <zzo38> Can you be more specific?
03:07:31 <mad> do you want to emulate existing cpus or do fast number crunching or run straight C++ code with memory ops and jumps all over the place?
03:07:57 <zzo38> Run a code which is programmed specificly for this CPU
03:08:21 <zzo38> Programmed using microcodes that do what is helpful
03:08:44 <mad> so assembly code?
03:08:57 <mad> doing what sort of processing?
03:09:10 <Bike> what if we, like, used different CPUs for different kinds of programs,,, and, like, made it all super fast, man......................
03:09:13 <zzo38> I don't know entirely, but there are a few different kinds I was thinking of
03:09:27 <zzo38> Bike: You shouldn't have too many though
03:09:31 <pikhq> Bike: Well, if we could manage gigahertz FPGAs... :)
03:10:27 <Bike> i just want a computer made of acids :(
03:10:35 <mad> if you could 8 way superscalar execute MIPS code I'd be pretty impressed :o
03:10:35 <zzo38> One think I think of involves emulating 6502 or the old x86, other thing that could be done is Z-machine, you could also do mathematical things, possibly physics, graphics, audio, there are many things to do. Some kinds of things do not have to be as fast as other things, though.
03:11:24 <mad> 6502 is like impossible to optimize
03:11:34 <zzo38> You can see, therefore, that some things don't have to be so fast as other things, just because of the kind of programs
03:12:06 <zzo38> mad: Yes I know that, but it wouldn't have to be as fast as other things anyways
03:12:17 <Bike> or a neuromorphic machine, partly because "neurmorphic" sounds too cool to be real
03:12:26 <mad> yeah but that's why I'm asking what's your heavyest usage element
03:12:48 <mad> the parts that can be slow aren't really important and can be implemented any way
03:13:10 <mad> like if you start with a boring old MIPS it does ok at pretty much all of those things
03:13:23 <mad> (ok with an FPU for code that uses that)
03:14:29 <mad> (or maybe with some MAC/SIMD opcodes for sound processing instead)
03:14:44 <mad> you have to know what's the limiting factor
03:15:03 <mad> what's going to make a difference
03:15:39 <zzo38> I mean that you can simplify it and not implement a lot of things in hardware; implement most of in user microcodes, and then the microcodes can be designed so that things that are really complicated will run fast.
03:16:23 <mad> you can't really simplify a MIPS
03:17:41 <mad> a single issue MIPS is like a 2 port 32 register file wired more or less straight into a 32 bit ALU wired more or less straight into the data cache
03:18:36 <mad> With opcodes as close as possible to microcode
03:18:36 <pikhq> I dunno, I suspect you could simplify it slightly. But you'd be shuffling a few relatively inessential features.
03:19:17 <mad> you could take out the ADD instruction that does interrupts on overflows yeah
03:19:33 <mad> and probably the add carry instruction too (if I remember correctly)
03:19:34 <zzo38> I am not worried too much about speed, and consider simplicity of the implementation to be more important
03:19:41 <pikhq> MIPS definitely lacks gratuitous insanity, which already makes it, like, the simplest common ISA.
03:20:13 <mad> you could take out the multiplier
03:20:18 <mad> but then multiplies are a lot slower
03:20:34 <mad> you could take out the multiple memory access sizes
03:20:55 <mad> but then if you have something that does 8 or 16 bit accesses it becomes a lot slower
03:21:26 <mad> you could take out the memory ops that do address calculation
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03:22:19 <mad> but then you're using more registers and more instruction cache and also memory accesses become 2 cycles for real essentially
03:22:40 <mad> so it's a bad idea
03:23:53 <mad> (though I guess it would simplify implementation)
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03:27:35 <zzo38> It is why I suggested doing things such as programming the user program in microcodes
03:27:50 <mad> you could probably take out most immediates in instructions which would make it appreciably slower and use up registers but it would simplify the instruction set
03:28:24 <mad> using microcodes would definitely make it easier to implement
03:28:31 <mad> and maybe not slower
03:28:37 <mad> but harder to program also
03:28:49 <zzo38> Yes, that is why I suggest it; it make it easier to implement and not slower.
03:28:51 <mad> and it would have larger programs
03:30:04 <zzo38> You could still have the user program in the microcode to implement some instruction set for the rest of the program if it would help to do so for that particular program, but you don't have to, in case it won't help with that program
03:30:34 <mad> this sounds sorta like the itanium
03:30:40 <mad> which was VLIW-ish
03:30:50 <pikhq> mad: I'd be in favor of taking out immediates if you just wanted a "very simple" ISA.
03:30:54 <zzo38> Yes, VLIW is also part of the design I am thinking of to do
03:31:04 <mad> it actually worked kinda well for floating point code
03:31:06 <pikhq> But yes, I'll agree with your point (in essence)
03:31:21 <mad> but it was just worse than x86 for normal integer stuff
03:31:36 <pikhq> MIPS is about as simple as you can get without having to hit major tradeoffs.
03:32:20 <pikhq> Such as "eh, it'll be notably slower at any computations, but who cares"
03:32:23 <mad> due to larger instructions (= less instruction cache and instruction loading bandwidth), less crazy reordering and memory renaming etc
03:32:39 <mad> yeah it's kinda hard to take anything from MIPS
03:32:56 <mad> it's like, every thing it has is useful
03:33:28 <mad> inversely it's not that easy to add stuff to MIPS
03:33:40 <mad> aside from separate stuff like a FPU and a SIMD unit
03:34:01 <pikhq> And goofy stuff that you wonder why any human being would desire it.
03:34:15 <mad> any kind of thing you can add has a performance downside somewhere
03:34:44 <mad> in particular running out of register read ports
03:34:46 <pikhq> You could *totally* have a "x86 segmented address to physical address" instruction in there, it'd just be a bad idea. :)
03:35:03 <pikhq> Even *if* all you want to do with it is emulate 16-bit x86.
03:35:44 <mad> I'm pretty sure even x86 cpus have an extra cycle latency penalty somewhere if you use that stuff too
03:36:15 <pikhq> Oh, I imagine. There's rather a lot of x86 features floating around that you can only use at serious cost.
03:36:45 <mad> or at just enough cost that it's just not worth it
03:37:10 <pikhq> I mean, come on, x87 handles BCD.
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03:37:38 <mad> as in, you're not gaining anything over using the x86 as some kind of degenerate MIPS
03:38:19 <mad> I'm still not sure if the instructions that do a calculation + a memory load aren't worth it though
03:38:30 <mad> stuff like add eax, [ebx + 64]
03:40:11 <mad> it has a lot of downsides (it's 3 cycles+ latency and it has all the complexity of both a memory load and a calculation, plus it can require 3 register read ports)
03:40:30 <mad> but it's also kindof compact and useful and it's essentially 2 instructions in 1
03:40:53 <zzo38> The modern x86 set is really extremely too complicated
03:41:27 <pikhq> It's not designed, it's evolved.
03:41:48 <zzo38> And it is evolved badly too.
03:41:49 <Bike> perhaps it could use some selection pressure.
03:42:03 <Bike> actually, has there been any work on mechanical processor design
03:42:48 <mad> it could use some pruning yes
03:43:00 <mad> mostly some way of getting rid of 16bit mode
03:43:21 <Bike> you know, like evolving an instruction set where the fitness measurement is the average performance on some benchmark programs, or something.
03:43:35 <mad> and segment addressing if possible (which might be impossible due to being used in win32 programs)
03:43:38 <zzo38> No, the thing you should get rid of is things like Super Mario game in one instruction and so on
03:43:46 <zzo38> (x86 doesn't have that, but it has things almost as complicated)
03:44:02 <mad> x86 has BCD
03:44:21 <pikhq> x86 has BCD in multiple different ways.
03:44:23 <mad> which is retarded but at some point a bank wanted it so they got it
03:44:51 <pikhq> There's BCD on the normal registers *and* BCD in the x87 FPU.
03:45:05 <Bike> always wanted floating point bcd
03:45:16 <mad> I don't want to imagine the perf on x87 FPU :3
03:45:29 <mad> it's probably something monstruous like an interrupt on each operation
03:45:30 <pikhq> Oh, that's the funny part. It's not floating point.
03:45:41 <pikhq> x87 actually can be used as an integer unit as well.
03:45:57 <pikhq> 16, 32, and 64 bit ints.
03:46:08 <Bike> thank goodness i looked up the x87 pusher once and found out he's pretty much crazy.
03:46:10 <mad> heh, that's... horrible
03:46:59 <pikhq> Eh, not quite as bad as you'd expect at least. x87 float's mantissa is 64 bits.
03:47:34 <mad> what's the point of using the fpu for doing integer calculations
03:48:14 <Bike> but seriously anybody got an answer re: my random speuclating
03:48:15 <mad> didn't the 8087 have monstruously long cycle times?
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03:48:30 <carado> Just made myself a nice Read instance for (a -> b) using the hint package. I’ve been needing that.
03:48:47 <pikhq> Compared with doing 64-bit int add from your 16-bit ALU? :)
03:48:49 <zzo38> carado: How does that work?
03:49:03 <mad> pikhq: that's like 3 ADC's and an ADD
03:49:27 <carado> zzo38, the hint package allows one to interpret Haskell in Haskell using GHC as a library.
03:49:29 <mad> dunno how long that is on the 8086 but on the 286 and 386 that's not particularly long
03:49:45 <pikhq> But yeah, it's goofy.
03:49:58 <zzo38> carado: O, OK, I suppose that can work.
03:50:08 <mad> like 24 cycles if your operand is in memory
03:51:16 <pikhq> There were *non* 8087-compatible floating point coprocessors for the 8086
03:51:34 <zzo38> Yes, x86 is really stupid.
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03:51:56 <mad> x86 is still better than 6502
03:51:59 <pikhq> This worked because the 8086
03:52:09 <mad> and it's probably better than the z80
03:52:16 <zzo38> No, I think x86 is the most stupid one.
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03:52:29 <mad> the 6502 is impossible to pipeline
03:52:32 <pikhq> 's knowledge of floats was just looking for the sequence 0b11011.
03:52:48 <mad> the x86 has lots of cruft but it's pipelinable
03:52:58 <pikhq> We'd probably regret the 6502 a lot more than the x86 if it'd survived.
03:53:45 <Bike> 6502's 2013 version still has the page boundary bug,for compat :D
03:54:00 <mad> like, aside from the cruft and the memory-operation opcodes and no 3 operand opcodes, the x86 is still essentially an 8 register RISC
03:54:08 <pikhq> I can guarantee that the hacks on the 6502 would be at *least* as bad as x86.
03:54:31 <mad> like, you can turn the x86 into the pentium
03:54:44 <mad> which is actually pretty nice in many ways
03:54:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, they would, but that is why, don't do it.
03:54:59 <mad> you can't make a pentium version of the 6502
03:55:04 <mad> it's essentially unpossible
03:55:28 <Bike> don't upgrade 6502 by evolution for thirty years. got it.
03:55:44 <mad> you'd have to try something insane like turning the zero page into a register file
03:55:55 <Bike> that sounds awesomely shitty.
03:56:04 <zzo38> That is why, don't do such things; keep it as it is.
03:56:07 <pikhq> x86 is bad because you don't want to break DOS.
03:56:17 <zzo38> But DOS is not so bad.
03:56:19 <mad> and also combining multiple opcodes together into single opcodes
03:57:38 <mad> lda $60 + clcl + adc $64 + sta $68 => add r68h, r60h, r64h
03:59:09 <mad> I'm not familiar enough with the z80 but it has similar faults
03:59:36 <mad> mainly that they ran out of instructions super fast so it has instruction prefixes all over the place
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04:01:42 <mad> though it does have enough registers to compute stuff so it's probably a lot better than the 6502 still
04:01:43 <mad> like, afaik it's somewhere between the 6502 and the x86 in terms of design
04:01:43 <mad> 68000 might have been better than x86
04:02:20 <mad> it's at least an OK instruction set since they pipelined it and superscalared it
04:02:37 <mad> and I'm not sure if the separation between address and data registers is a good or a bad thing
04:03:36 <mad> it's slightly more CISC than x86 but it doesn't have 8bit opcodes (everything is multiples of 16 bits) and it definitely has less instruction set insanity
04:04:06 <mad> though it has opcodes that do like 4 thing and have debatable usefulness
04:06:01 <mad> then again it doesn't have real mode
04:07:35 <mad> zzo38 : anyhow
04:07:49 <mad> the mips has more or less ideal latency for everything (1 cycle)
04:08:09 <mad> (2 cycle for memory access since that's really an add then a load)
04:08:41 <mad> which means that the only real way to beat it is to do 2 or 3 or more things on each cycle
04:09:36 <mad> and then again you could just superscalarize the mips and make it 2-instructions per cycle
04:09:51 <mad> in which case you're once again not winning anything over the mips
04:14:17 <mad> essentially to win anything over the mips you need to be doing something like DSP
04:14:27 <mad> with hand coded assembly
04:14:48 <mad> and not too many load/stores
04:15:31 <mad> (if there are too many load/stores then the program becomes bottlenecked by memory bandwidth or something like that and then you're not faster than a MIPS)
04:15:43 <zzo38> Can you play Pokemon card?
04:16:23 <zzo38> Anyone that can play Pokemon card, please review some thing I wrote relating to it
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04:36:16 <zzo38> Do you know about "Worse-Is-Better" design?
04:42:00 <zzo38> It is also called New Jersey style.
04:42:42 <Bike> i forget, did the guy who wrote worse is better i forget his name like christopher alexander
04:43:18 <zzo38> Wikipedia says Richard P. Gabriel
04:44:04 <Bike> interesting guy. did some work on parallel code in lisp. trying to get straight how fucked he was wrt design though
04:44:10 <Bike> have you ever, like, seen christopher alexander's writing
04:46:48 <zzo38> I think too many programs in modern Linux systems are not implemented as a filter, even though they ought to be. The program "dvilj4" gives a help file when you invoke it with no arguments, although I think it ought to act like a filter
04:47:36 <shachaf> higgledy piggledy, / richard p. gabriel / said worse is better / (so better is worse); // turns out the worst, though -- / worse even than better -- is / how i decided to / finish this verse
04:48:57 <shachaf> Oops, that "(so" should be moved to the left of the /.
04:49:12 <kmc> aren't you supposed to have one line that's a single word? maybe that's why it's worse
04:52:46 <zzo38> mad: Do you have any idea relating to hardware programming languages?
05:07:40 <zzo38> I have written a few things of some of my ideas.
05:08:13 <zzo38> One thing I have is that numbers are specified in binary format by default (you need a prefix for decimal and hex).
05:12:33 <zzo38> Another is how module calls work; in Verilog you have module calls with names and I/O, but in HWPL (the name for my (incomplete) design), instead you have macro parameters in parentheses after the module name (the call itself has no name), and then after that you have the I/O vector (there is just one I/O vector).
05:14:35 <zzo38> (and the number of bits in the I/O vector is an implicit macro parameter)
05:15:04 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these kind of things?
05:19:52 <mad> kinda falling asleep atm :o
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05:41:01 <zzo38> It looks to me that SQL is almost suitable for text adventure games.
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06:03:04 <kmc> zzo38: do you think that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Park is New Jersey Style
06:03:36 <zzo38> kmc: I may look later, not now
06:07:10 <shachaf> kmc: wavelet trees are neat
06:07:16 <kmc> what are they
06:07:18 <shachaf> you missed edwardk's explanation in -lens
06:07:30 <Bike> wavelets have to do with lens?
06:07:40 <shachaf> #-lens is more like #edwardk
06:08:02 <Bike> "It generalizes the \mathbf{rank}_q and \mathbf{select}_q operations defined on bitvectors to arbitrary alphabets." oh, that's nice.
06:08:30 <shachaf> I could probably paste the logs.
06:23:33 <shachaf> kmc: what are some nifty data structures and things
06:34:12 <kmc> skip lists
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06:37:17 <shachaf> i already know about those :'(
06:38:27 <kmc> work stealing queues
06:39:05 <kmc> fibonacci heaps (comedy answer)
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07:03:19 <sdile> Has anyone used Inline::C/ASM in Perl?
07:03:38 <sdile> Is it worth using for just getting the address ESP points to? I feel like I'm cheating if I start using inline ASM in C, since I haven't been introduced to it.
07:04:27 <zzo38> Cheating due to not being introduced to it?
07:05:58 <sdile> zzo38: I don't understand how it works, but I could read up on it.
07:06:11 <shachaf> I'm not sure what "getting the address ESP points to" means in your context exactly.
07:06:37 <sdile> shachaf: With regard to bufferoverflows/shellcode
07:06:52 <sdile> I feel like it's the same as ripping code.
07:07:19 <sdile> Do you think it's okay to just read up on it and use it, even if I haven't done it in K&R2?
07:07:49 <shachaf> I'm mostly not sure what you're on about.
07:10:50 <kmc> using some Perl thing to find the value of ESP within some Perl code would not be very helpful for exploiting a C program, I think
07:11:09 <kmc> I suggest you either learn the little bit of asm (it's not much) or do the hack of taking the address of a local variable, which will probably give you a number near ESP
07:11:20 <kmc> but I'm not really sure what you're on about, either
07:13:43 <sdile> kmc: What I'm up to is just pointers, memcpy() and inline ASM. Pointers and memcpy() is chapter 5 I'm pretty certain, inline ASM I can just read up on after that.
07:13:52 <sdile> I'm almost up to chapter 4, so I'll just have to speed through it.
07:14:22 <fizzie> I've used Inline::C for no particular reason. But I concur that getting the value of esp in an Inline::C function does not sound terribly useful.
07:16:32 <sdile> fizzie: It does sound ridiculous.
07:17:01 <sdile> fizzie: But, I felt like it's cheating if I used inline ASM in C.
07:17:12 <sdile> Since I'm not that far into it, yet.
07:17:36 <zzo38> My "TV plot" program has been updated; now you can make even more strange and/or interesting and/or bad movies.
07:25:08 <zzo38> sdile: Why do you need the address ESP points to?
07:25:34 <zzo38> It won't be very portable if you have ASM codes anyways
07:26:56 <zzo38> Not really so much.
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08:02:45 <zzo38> Is there some way to unreverb audio signal?
08:06:57 <sdile> I am trying to create a 'broken/vulnerable' encryption algorithm, in which one can obtain the key. http://pastebin.com/zj7b8Tsx
08:08:31 <zzo38> Why do you try to do that?
08:08:55 <sdile> Just for fun/learning
08:11:53 <zzo38> One idea I have is somehow have in addition to the normal key, to have a algorithm key, which can be used to recover the normal key.
08:12:01 <zzo38> I don't know how you would do this, though.
08:13:49 <fizzie> There are various dereverberation algorithms, it's a big field. None of them are perfect, of course.
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08:15:54 <fizzie> (And usually need some assumptions.)
08:17:05 <olsner> useful for speech recognition?
08:17:46 <zzo38> What if it isn't speech?
08:17:47 <fizzie> Might even be the context for majority of them.
08:18:48 <olsner> can't you just apply the inverse of the reverb? how hard can it be?
08:18:59 <fizzie> Some of them presumably would work up to some degree. Esp. the multi-microphone ones, but you might have just a single channel.
08:19:45 <fizzie> olsner: It's p. easy if you have a good estimate of the reverb.
08:22:16 <sdile> ( i.e. 4 // random number generated by toss of fair die
08:22:33 <sdile> i suppose if you use a block cipher with most of the block full of the same garbage in each block, then you will reveal the key
08:23:33 <sdile> if you poll /dev/random for 512 bits and compose blocks with the same 512 as fill....
08:25:39 <zzo38> You could try that, see if it is working
08:26:15 <Gracenotes> hum... spending over 1.5 hours writing a comment... exhausting
08:27:13 <Gracenotes> for Hackage, it's a bit of a dense one. https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/40#issuecomment-23773355
08:33:35 <sdile> for example. gen a key array; instead of target = xor(source[index],key_element[index])... do xor(source[index],key_element[index,index%N])
08:35:41 <zzo38> sdile: Why do you have both "index" and "index%N" for the "key_element" now?
08:36:43 <sdile> zzo38: take the same XOR code, but vary the key. the key is a keyset
08:36:51 <sdile> so instead of a 1d array, it's 2d.
08:37:54 <zzo38> OK, it certainly doesn't seem so useful (since not all of the array is in use, it would seem), unless you can vary N, or whatever
08:49:02 <sdile> zzo38: i am suggesting two dimenions, with the second being somewhat small (10, 20)
08:49:27 <zzo38> Yes, I know that already
08:50:49 <sdile> zzo38: but... in retrospect, i see that does not make it two dimensional, it just makes the other bytes redundat
08:51:00 <zzo38> Yes that is what I was saying
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09:24:03 <HackEgo> slist gamzee: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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13:34:10 <boily> good not-so-many-idlers-today morning!
13:35:51 <pikhq> Idling is the great international pastime. :)
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13:38:46 <HackEgo> azaq23: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:03:40 <boily> hi quintopia. still voiced?
15:03:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:04:08 <quintopia> yep. i will stay voiced until my vps crashes again
15:04:17 <quintopia> but that hasnt happened in a long time
15:05:06 <boily> how many nines can you expect from your vps? what are the k and λ of the crashes per year?
15:06:13 <quintopia> it never crashed until this year. i have no idea why it started happening, but it was often for a while there. probably some changes i made causing a recurring kernel panic.
15:10:34 <quintopia> sometimes people get emotionally estranged for subtle reasons. i doubt it is completely uncaused. what kinds of things have you been saying to steam the past few days?
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15:14:09 <Koen_> that's a trema but no one will notice
15:15:55 <boily> quintopia: I can umlautify random letters in my ongoing LaTeX project.
15:16:14 <boily> (they'll be real, certified authentic german-made umlauts. accept no substitute!)
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15:17:32 <boily> quintopia: also, if you're attempting to apply vodou on Phantom_Hoover with tréma, the rituals will... well... they'll work. but then there are Cönsequences.
15:18:38 <boily> no, I am not insane. the mayonnaise from that early morning BTL bagel from McDo didn't have no abverse effect on me whatsoever.
15:19:22 <quintopia> can't fool me with your sneaky double negatives
15:19:39 <boily> darn. foiled again!
15:22:37 * quintopia shoots a pineapple chunk at boily from a straw
15:23:42 * boily receives a ballistic fruit chunk on his head. “Hey!”
15:24:13 <quintopia> it's the only cure for mayo-induced insanity
15:25:05 * boily glares at quintopia じ〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜
15:29:15 <boily> I know where you (approẍimately) live! you won't get away! nyah. nyah ah ah. MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH!
15:30:19 <boily> (oh, ẍ is used in Kurdish for [ʁ]. interesting.)
15:32:08 <Koen_> rotated-and-flipped small-but-capital R
15:34:31 <boily> Koen_: the metropolitan French «r».
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15:36:00 <Koen_> just call it [r] then
15:36:30 <boily> in that case, it's [ʁ], but /r/.
15:36:47 <boily> (those phone{m,t}ic transliterations are confusing as fungot.)
15:36:47 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week, i fnord kara to hold me until i fell over, with much ado. your sister is the better part made mercie, i should think at least, that is expressions which have not been able to
15:37:37 <quintopia> boily: you don't know my current coordinates1
15:37:44 <Koen_> boily:are you implying that phonetics written as /.../ and [...] are two DIFFERENT languages?
15:38:51 <boily> Koen_: afaiu, the phonemic /.../ uses as many different symbols needed to differentiate all recognized sounds in a language, and then you have [...] for the exact realisation. itthth.
15:39:37 <boily> Koen_: so, whatever the way we each realise our «r»s, it'll be /r/ because French has a single «r» sound.
15:39:48 <Roujo> boily: Ohayou gozaimasu! =D
15:40:01 <Roujo> I can do some japanese, just... no kanjis =P
15:40:02 <boily> Roujo: say, do you roll your «r»?
15:40:10 <Roujo> boily: Define rolling
15:40:19 <Roujo> And if you just post SAMPA, it doesn't count
15:40:25 <Koen_> so there's a different /../ for every language, but there's a signle [...] and it's international?
15:40:46 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill
15:40:50 <Roujo> boily: Better yet! Record yourself, and I'll tell you
15:40:50 <boily> Koen_: something like that. there's some fuziness, depending on what you're analysing.
15:41:13 <Roujo> I can't do that >_>
15:41:30 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_uvular_fricative usual french r
15:41:32 <boily> Roujo: c'est pas compliqué pour moi. prend l'accent de québec.
15:41:40 <nooodl> maybe not in québec though
15:41:51 <Roujo> nooodl: That's how I say it, yeah
15:41:54 <boily> nooodl: I have a friend from the Beauce region who rolls her rs.
15:42:22 <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
15:42:50 <boily> `addquote <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
15:42:54 <HackEgo> 1101) <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
15:43:53 <Roujo> `run echo Uvular Fricative Expert, according to his girlfriend. *wink wink nudge nudge* > wisdom/koen_
15:43:58 <boily> nooodl: the trilled r still exists. your best bet for hearing it is to find a vicar.
15:44:27 <Roujo> Alright, what do you suggest, then?
15:45:05 <Koen_> Roujo: also are you sure you can use the character '*' in a parameter for echo without quotes?
15:45:22 <Roujo> Koen_: Nope. Didn't stop me, though =P
15:45:30 <Roujo> What's the worst that could happen?
15:45:56 <boily> Roujo: just to be sure, use a «*̈».
15:46:12 <Koen_> well it could run the command with every file that matches *wink and every file that matches nudge*, or something
15:46:34 <Roujo> boily: How the hell do you do these
15:46:59 <Roujo> Koen_: Using echo?
15:47:12 <Roujo> If I had done something like rm, then yeah
15:47:27 <Roujo> But echo... I don't see how it could break
15:47:38 <Roujo> Only one way to find out
15:47:43 <Roujo> (And no, that's not "man echo")
15:47:49 <Roujo> `run echo Test *test* test
15:47:56 <Roujo> `run echo Test *test* test > testing
15:47:58 <Koen_> Roujo: http://pastebin.com/RS5hV8JH
15:48:31 <boily> Roujo: candian multilingual standard keyboard layout, and iso level 3 abuse :D
15:48:48 <Roujo> Koen_: Oooh, nice. I see what you mean now.
15:49:00 <boily> (also, some customisation, UIM with Anthy, and a waaaaaay too permissive terminal)
15:49:01 <Roujo> I thought you said that it would overwrite all the files
15:49:10 <Koen_> oh no echo wouldn't do that
15:49:15 <Koen_> yeah I meant filename, not file
15:49:17 <Roujo> But I get what you mean now
15:49:42 <Roujo> I didn't know what could happen, I just figured that it wouldn't break anything other than that wisdom itself
15:52:00 <boily> Roujo: IPA input is a little bit more involved. I need a GTK app (usually leafpad) to select the input method, then copy&paste into weechat.
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16:15:46 <elliott> would anyone like to be banned??
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16:21:44 <Roujo> I'm trying to quit, really
16:22:00 <Roujo> A good... 6 minutes?
16:22:34 <Taneb> elliott, imo kick kmc he's bear
16:23:17 <elliott> maybe I'll kick glogbackup for not actually needing to be here.
16:23:21 <elliott> Gregor: will that break anything?
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16:33:01 <Bike> elliott kicks glogbot, freenode dies
16:33:25 <Bike> »Just got a PR pitch that described the act of placing a wet iPhone in a bag of rice to dry out as, "an old folk remedy."»
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16:34:08 <Bike> it's » » to represent moving towards the future, if you're wondering
16:34:12 <Bike> an arrow of quoted fact
16:34:20 <Bike> aimed directly at the heart of the past!
16:34:31 -!- elliott has kicked Bike thank you for giving me somebody to kick..
16:34:43 -!- Bike has joined.
16:34:48 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +o Bike.
16:34:49 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
16:34:53 <Bike> what just happened
16:35:03 <Bike> oh i got kicked wow
16:35:07 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -v elliott.
16:35:09 <elliott> btw don't actually do anything unless it's amusing or oerjan will freak
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16:35:11 <Bike> that'll show you
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16:42:28 <Roujo> I take it oerjan is allergic to admin abuse?
16:43:04 <elliott> only when he doesn't do it, hth!
16:54:03 <Roujo> He's not even in here
16:56:30 <Koen_> and oerjan has a habit of reading through the logs when he arrives
16:56:39 <Koen_> hello, future oerjan
16:57:08 <Bike> sure would be unfortunate if something were to... happen to those logs, huh
16:57:16 <Bike> something like.................
16:57:22 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -v glogbackup.
16:57:39 <Koen_> they're still on tunes and codu
16:57:53 <Koen_> good luck with devoicing the server
16:58:05 <Bike> dude i said !!!!!
16:58:10 <Bike> get with the program. this is bikeland now.
16:58:30 <Koen_> you should edit `welcome then
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17:01:57 * Roujo sets mode -v codu.org
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17:09:50 <Bike> and so the glorious reign of bike ends.
17:10:10 <Bike> not with a bang, but with god why does it always take five minutes to connect here.
17:10:19 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o Bike.
17:11:10 <Roujo> Bike: You timed out 260 seconds after I devoiced the server, with a timeout of 256 seconds
17:11:15 <Roujo> I find that very suspicious
17:11:24 <boily> back from a phở and Bike is op. interesting.
17:11:49 <Bike> no. it's too late now.
17:11:56 -!- Bike has set channel mode: +o Roujo.
17:12:01 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -o Bike.
17:12:07 <Bike> i must leave the empire to another.
17:12:15 <Roujo> I will honor the empire
17:12:21 * boily feels suddenly, viscerally terrified
17:12:28 <Roujo> (I just want to see oerjan react to this =P)
17:12:47 -!- Roujo has set channel mode: +v boily.
17:12:54 <Roujo> Don't feel bad, young boily
17:12:59 <Bike> well, anyway, how's the pho
17:13:03 <boily> woo! back to voice!
17:13:11 <Bike> i have to talk about these things now that i'm merely a commoner
17:13:22 <boily> Bike: 'twas good. the thai pepper was still fresh and powerful.
17:13:33 <Bike> don't remember the last time i had pho really
17:13:38 <boily> Bike: beware of 3.5e cats. they can kill you.
17:13:42 <Bike> which is weird because i like noodles in general??
17:13:51 <Roujo> That's a nice operator
17:13:52 <Bike> imo give phantom halfop.
17:14:02 <Roujo> I don't think freenode supports half-ops
17:14:05 <boily> Bike: there are a few places where you can get handmade ramen for cheap.
17:14:05 <Bike> %Phantom_Hoover
17:14:18 <Bike> hand made ramen? sewn out of raw tree
17:14:19 <Roujo> "h: is an unknown mode char to me"
17:14:41 <Bike> the server can talk?
17:14:46 <Roujo> E replied that when I tried to half-op Phantom_Hoover
17:15:01 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o Roujo.
17:15:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v boily.
17:15:05 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v kmc.
17:15:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v quintopia.
17:15:09 * Bike feels suddenly, viscerally terrified
17:15:22 <Roujo> Thus ended the Reign of Roujo the Lachinois
17:15:38 <Bike> who dares, and how can i properly demonstrate my fealty to them
17:16:03 <Roujo> That's double talk for "suck up to them", right?
17:16:15 <Bike> single talk, really
17:21:48 <boily> `run echo "拉麵是一種類型的麵條縫製從原始樹木。" >wisdom/ramen
17:22:04 <boily> because I hate myself and need more latexian challenges.
17:25:14 <boily> oh, and one more thing: elliott, you are oppressing me. check your privileges.
17:27:24 <Roujo> `run fsck /dev/privilege
17:27:25 <HackEgo> bash: fsck: command not found
17:27:35 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:34:33 <boily> `run cksum /dev/privilege
17:34:34 <HackEgo> cksum: /dev/privilege: No such file or directory
17:34:42 <boily> `run cksum wisdom/ramen
17:34:44 <HackEgo> 1845405672 55 wisdom/ramen
17:35:30 <Roujo> `run cksum /dev/random > bin/fsck
17:35:39 -!- Guest18414 has joined.
17:35:50 <Roujo> An echo was supposed to get in there
17:36:11 <Roujo> Also, /dev/urandom
17:36:25 <Bike> /dev/evenmorerandom
17:36:44 <HackEgo> cat: bin/fksk: No such file or directory
17:36:49 <boily> Guest18414: who are you? why don't you echo? did you check the Random Check? how does the aftertaste of a mouthful of algæ feel?
17:37:02 <Roujo> `run echo cksum /dev/random > bin/fsck
17:37:07 <Roujo> `run echo cksum /dev/urandom > bin/fsck
17:37:14 <Roujo> `relcome Guest18414
17:37:17 <HackEgo> Guest18414: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:37:31 <metasepia> Your divination: "Small Exceeding" to "Conjoining"
17:37:36 <metasepia> Your divination: "Parting" to "Articulating"
17:37:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:37:45 <Bike> stop doing it more than once...........
17:37:49 <boily> Bike: small exceeding is more conjoining than dogs.
17:37:57 <Roujo> Well, I don't want *his* divination
17:38:01 <boily> Roujo: do not consume more than your fair share of yiïtude.
17:38:31 <Roujo> boily: Is one more than a fair share?
17:38:37 <elliott> Bike: it said small exceeding
17:38:44 <boily> Roujo: dunno. ask Bike.
17:38:45 <elliott> a small exceeding of the amount of ~yis is therefore indicated
17:38:53 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/fsck: Permission denied
17:39:10 <Roujo> `run chmod +x bin/fsck
17:41:28 <Roujo> The BotVerse broke
17:41:36 <Roujo> Singularity is imminent
17:41:36 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:41:43 -!- metasepia has joined.
17:41:48 <metasepia> CYUL 041709Z 21008KT 15SM -SHRA FEW020 BKN030 OVC090 17/14 A2986 RMK SC2SC3AC3 SLP111 DENSITY ALT 400FT
17:42:10 <boily> phew. and here I thought even the weather was borken.
17:44:30 <Roujo> Don't mention the raining squirrels
17:44:34 <Roujo> They don't like that up there
17:45:40 <boily> one of the first thing I noticed when I moved to Montréal was the humongous megasquirrels.
17:45:59 -!- PixelToast has changed nick to dan200.
17:46:30 -!- augur has joined.
17:52:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
17:52:57 <boily> okay, so `learn is once again acting weird.
17:53:48 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed.
17:58:47 <boily> I'm lagging behind... time to upgrade!
17:59:03 <Roujo> `run sudo apt-get upgrade boily
17:59:04 <HackEgo> bash: sudo: command not found
17:59:21 <Roujo> `run which apt-get
17:59:22 <HackEgo> The Treaty on `lists treats how to `list our treats.
17:59:30 <Roujo> `run apt-get upgrade boily
17:59:32 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
18:00:35 -!- fsioufosud has joined.
18:00:39 <boily> `relcome fsioufosud
18:00:42 <HackEgo> fsioufosud: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:04:32 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:05:02 <Roujo> I guess he fell off
18:10:10 <kmc> this compiler command line is... 16,840 characters long
18:10:58 <Roujo> That's a bit frightening
18:11:16 <Roujo> You just got to the point where you almost need to optimize *that* before compiling
18:12:23 <boily> you know something went horribly wrong when you have a novella in a compiler line...
18:12:48 <kmc> yeah... I wonder what the maximum command line length is on this system
18:12:53 <olsner> most compilers support a response file to put the command line when you reach the OS limit
18:13:08 <olsner> presumably because some projects inevitably actually need it
18:13:17 <Roujo> What does it look like?
18:13:23 <Roujo> Why would you get to that point?
18:13:43 <elliott> linking anything with a huge number of modules, for example
18:13:44 <olsner> add files, add more files, keep adding more files, and eventually you get there
18:13:46 <Roujo> Admitedly, I don't compile stuff using the command line
18:13:58 <Roujo> So I don't even kno-- oh
18:14:02 <Roujo> Yeah, simple enough
18:14:34 <Roujo> compiler -f file.cpp file2.cpp ... filen-1.cpp filen.cpp
18:14:58 <olsner> some projects use absolute paths, recursive symlinks, redundant ../ components in paths, etc to reach the limit faster
18:15:27 <kmc> it has a lot of things like -L/home/keegan/proj/servo/servo/build/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/src/support/png/rust-png/src/.libs -Wl,-rpath,/home/keegan/proj/servo/servo/build/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/src/support/png/rust-png
18:15:38 <kmc> for each of like two dozen libraries
18:15:43 <kmc> also some of them are just repeated I think
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18:20:05 -!- xxx has joined.
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18:21:39 <HackEgo> xxx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:26:49 -!- Bike has joined.
18:30:20 <boily> Roujo: a Bike falling off a Bike. I'm ashamed it took me that long to understand it.
18:31:36 <Bike> can i help you
18:33:07 <Roujo> [14:04:32] Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
18:33:07 <Roujo> [14:05:01] <Roujo> I guess he fell off
18:33:13 <Roujo> That is all, really
18:33:41 <Roujo> I didn't claim otherwise
18:33:56 <Roujo> It was a spur-of-the-moment thing
18:34:09 <Roujo> Nothing too serious
18:35:14 <boily> zzo38: I don't think this channel supports extended help. you're stuck with regular help here. hth.
18:35:52 <Roujo> `run man #esoteric
18:35:54 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
18:38:30 -!- tromp has joined.
18:40:01 <HackEgo> tromp: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:40:36 <Roujo> `run cat /dev/random > /dev/boily
18:40:38 <HackEgo> bash: /dev/boily: Read-only file system
18:41:12 <boily> Bike: I formatted your quotes in the wisdom pdf.
18:42:03 <Roujo> boily: Why are you read-only. Why can't you change.
18:42:15 <Roujo> I gave you the chance to change. I was there for you.
18:42:24 <Roujo> I only asked little things every now and then
18:42:27 <boily> Bike: I just need to format that }-ful part, but otherwise I think everything else is fine.
18:42:28 <Roujo> I just wanted to be happy, for once
18:42:41 <Bike> is this in the topic
18:42:44 <boily> Roujo: it's a temporary maintenance measure.
18:42:50 <Roujo> But apparently, I'm not even enough for you to do that
18:42:59 <Roujo> Who will be enough, boily?
18:43:04 <Roujo> Who will you change for?
18:43:21 <boily> Roujo: uhm... my SO, I guess?
18:43:58 <boily> Roujo: tu peux toujours aussi faire un tour à soir à La Récréation (coin St-Denis / Ontario). y'a une soirée jeux organisée pour le festival OUMF.
18:44:22 <Roujo> J'aime bien les envolées pseudo-lyriques
18:44:22 <Bike> boily: "The People Wisom"?
18:45:11 <boily> Bike: yes? should I have titled the chapter “The Moving Thingies Wisdom”?
18:45:32 <Bike> is it not "Wisdom"
18:45:39 <Roujo> boily: J'ai un peu un souper avec ma SO, en fait =P
18:45:47 <boily> Bike: oh. right. stupid typo.
18:45:57 <Roujo> 'faut dégeler le poulet et tout
18:46:09 <Bike> also, ais's quotes at least aren't all newlined, oh no
18:46:20 <boily> Roujo: dans ce cas là, m'a te souhaiter un bon dégelage bien romantique et tout et tout :D
18:46:35 <boily> Bike: I know, it was only a first attempt. I'm handreformatting everything.
18:47:00 <boily> bah. only a kiloquote all in all. nothing too long.
18:47:13 <Roujo> boily: Le poulet, c'est pour demain. Ce soir, c'est du saumon qui a mariné toute la journée. =3
18:47:25 <boily> Roujo: oooooooooooh! yummy!
18:50:12 -!- conehead has joined.
18:51:52 <boily> hmm... obscure people are archæologically referenced in antique quotes.
18:52:52 <zzo38> Do you know of Z-Comp?
18:53:30 <boily> Bike: I was there when itidus was. I'm talking even more earlier in the Early Times.
18:53:50 <Bike> that's earlier than me so it probably didn't actually happen
18:53:55 <Bike> hopefully this makes things easier for you.
18:54:14 <boily> I'm used to things not existing. you know, Canada and all that sort of thing.
18:55:06 <zzo38> If you want to enter Z-Comp then you have to enter by Saturday, 28 Sep 2013, 07:14:36 PM EDT. Do so if you are interested to make a computer game for Z-machine. There is two ways to enter, either make account in ifMUD and fill the form, or just write a message to me about your entry and I will put it in for you.
18:56:16 <zzo38> Are you interest to write computer games following the limitation of Z-machine?
18:56:49 <zzo38> The current theme (which is optional, and can be conjunctive or disjunctive at your choice) is: Richardson fire // 2009-10 Leicester City F.C. season // Merciful to gibbering mouthers and the other monsters
18:57:14 <zzo38> The first two are random Wikipedia article titles. The third is from a file I wrote myself (it is secret).
18:58:23 -!- ff34 has joined.
18:58:47 <HackEgo> ff34: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:59:04 <zzo38> Do you have a color computer?
18:59:17 <boily> zzo38: I already visited your muddy apartment. the z-compo sounds very interesting, but I fear my free time is quite limited :(
18:59:36 <boily> my computer is a thinkpad. I fear it has no colour.
18:59:54 -!- xxx has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:00:14 <zzo38> boily: Ah. Well, it is recurring (with different themes each time, although the themes from my list will be eventually repeated if they weren't used yet in a submitted game)
19:01:58 <zzo38> Do you know when you do have time?
19:02:00 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:02:42 <zzo38> boily: Did you see all of the rooms in my ifMUD apartment yet though?
19:03:46 <boily> when the time gets grasped, it will be had. a carp a day, and a pickled salmon.
19:04:04 <boily> zzo38: exploring MUDs is even more time consuming than seeing everything in Riven.
19:04:38 <zzo38> That doesn't help about the time. Do you know approximately the time in terms of calendar, perhaps?
19:06:36 <boily> December at the earliest.
19:06:54 <zzo38> Do you like this theme or do you like a different theme?
19:08:22 <boily> I like the fire, the mouthers, but my general knowledge of Leicester is quite limited.
19:09:03 <zzo38> That is OK; you needn't use all of them (or any of them); combine them for a challenge or just use a single one if you prefer
19:09:43 <boily> firebreathing mouthers from outer space... RECYCLED IN SPACE!!!
19:10:29 <Roujo> cat boily | echo > boily
19:13:10 <zzo38> I have decided to make this theme file public anyways http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/zcomptheme.txt
19:13:46 <boily> another defunct artefact from olden times.
19:14:37 <Roujo> http://www.reddit.com/user/GreyKnight
19:14:49 <Roujo> One comment, two years ago
19:15:55 <boily> you won't find me on reddit :P
19:16:54 <Roujo> Bravo pour la rébellion
19:17:04 <Roujo> C'est toujours bien, se rebeller dans /r/___
19:17:20 -!- Bike has joined.
19:17:57 <zzo38> boily: Do you like any of these themes?
19:18:48 <boily> zzo38: I... think you asked me that one already. tdh, twh, hth, and a good dose of déjà vu.
19:19:16 <zzo38> I did write the same question but the context is different now so it is a different kind of question really
19:19:45 <boily> oh. contextually, yes. /r/___ is quite original, and I've yet to meet somebody from Ireland.
19:20:15 <boily> @tell cpressey I'm gel-ing your aloofness.
19:20:17 <zzo38> I mean the file I just made public
19:20:53 -!- ff34 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:21:36 <boily> zzo38: oh. that link went straight through my blind spot. lemme check that...
19:21:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:22:14 <boily> @tell zzo38 “Automynorcagrammatical” what the fungot... I like that one.
19:22:14 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there it is, in case he doesn't want you to the ancients, right. some numbers, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance,
19:43:42 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
19:44:34 <boily> btw, how's jsvine's II going?
19:48:29 <olsner> I don't know but maybe fungot
19:48:29 <fungot> olsner: more simply put: siod sucks as a general purpose ( similar, and i'd like to see that mystical forest powers, but this time on the impact of the introduction to theoretical computer, fnord of the fnord here, just above me, asked me to do that in the " better" language
19:48:35 <boily> mtve: are you still idling? kitty, kitty, kitty, kitty...
19:49:21 <boily> @tell jsvine siod, mystical forest powers, introduction impacts and some fnords.
19:50:32 <boily> time for the Daily LaTeX Question: anyone ever did big O notation?
19:50:49 <boily> Roujo: a fnord. basic unit of “you didn't see that”.
19:50:50 <Roujo> Nah, it never came up
19:51:21 <boily> the fnord is the quintessential invisible word. if you see it, then you don't.
19:52:02 <Roujo> But I use "the" all the time
19:53:55 * boily lobs a whole pineapple over at Roujo's head.
19:54:10 <olsner> the fnord is one of the first visible signs of invisibility
19:56:15 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:06:43 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:11:27 <olsner> is the plural of hiatus hiati?
20:12:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:13:10 <Taneb> olsner, if you're being pedantic it's "hiatus"
20:13:28 <olsner> but that's the same as the singular
20:13:52 <Taneb> Yeah, Latin is a weird language and English ate a lot of its weirdness
20:14:06 <Taneb> "hiatuses" is acceptable in English
20:14:42 <boily> one hiatu, two hiatus, three hiatuses.
20:15:58 <olsner> and then four hiatusesu, five hiatusesus, six hiatuseses?
20:17:33 <Taneb> olsner, you are getting the hang of this
20:18:01 <Taneb> So we just wait until suffixirth
20:18:36 -!- Bike has joined.
20:20:05 <nooodl> "hiatuses" is "your best bet" here
20:20:52 <Taneb> nooodl, unless you're against a pedant
20:21:04 <Taneb> olsner, if anyone tells you "hiati", they are wrong
20:21:17 <nooodl> Taneb: nah you just ignore dumb people hth
20:21:33 <HackEgo> 187) <elliott> </pedant> ... come to think of it, <pedant>
20:21:59 <nooodl> i'm thinking of examples where "englishifying" a latin word, grammatically, sounds really bad...
20:22:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:22:35 <nooodl> imo "matrixes" is weird?
20:23:17 <oerjan> matrices is the usual plural, no?
20:23:37 <Bike> matrix means uterus in latin? ok then
20:23:50 <kmc> and in spanish (or something like it)
20:23:50 <oerjan> yay only spam in my inbox today
20:23:51 <nooodl> also "indices", "vertices". whereas "indexes" and "vertixes" are kinda dumb-looking
20:24:09 <Bike> wiktionary says the latin plural of "mātrīx" is "mātrīcēs"
20:24:15 <olsner> what's the plural of asterix?
20:24:16 <Bike> pick a different example?
20:24:34 <Bike> asteripodes, rather
20:25:07 <nooodl> Bike: i don't see the issue
20:25:20 <nooodl> i'm not talking about "-us" -> "-i" in specific, if that's what you mean
20:25:23 <oerjan> (makes it so quick to read, you know)
20:25:30 <Bike> nooodl: you're not "englishifying" anything, the latin was originally "matrixes"
20:25:47 <nooodl> but it's not, it's martices
20:26:09 <oerjan> -x -> -ces is pretty regular 3rd declension.
20:26:23 <oerjan> (you can also get -ges, though.)
20:26:38 <Bike> wait, i misread.
20:26:41 <Bike> wow, fuck, nevermind. bye
20:27:04 <olsner> if that's a *de*clension, is -ces -> -x a clension?
20:27:25 <nooodl> something tells me i can't be original here
20:27:34 <Taneb> olsner, I think it's an aclension
20:27:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3855
20:28:09 <oerjan> olsner: i decline to answer that.
20:29:16 <oerjan> `run fgrep '[a-z]' bin/*
20:29:30 <oerjan> `run fgrep '[A-Z]' bin/*
20:29:55 <HackEgo> bin/anonlog: grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1| sed "s=<[^>]*> ==" \ bin/anonlog: echo "$file:$(grep "<.*>" $file | shuf -n 1)" | sed "s=<[^>]*> ==" \ bin/define: grep -A 3 'Definitions of' | \ bin/etymology: grep -A 100 ']'"$1" | \ bin/google: grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ bin/js:isOpenJDK=`$JAVA_CMD -version 2>&1 | gre
20:30:31 <olsner> hmm, it seems declension does mean something about bending, which is the swedish word for it
20:31:15 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:31:17 * oerjan was briefly wondering whether the grep localization madness from yesterday affected any HackEgo commands.
20:31:45 <olsner> I missed grep localization madness? awwww
20:32:04 <oerjan> `run echo TEST | grep '[a-z]'
20:33:31 <oerjan> basically, grep [.-.] uses the local collation order to determine which letters are in between - so when that collation order is case insensitive, things get included unexpectedly.
20:33:49 <oerjan> `run echo ZZZ | grep '[a-z]'
20:33:59 <oerjan> now guess why this _doesn't_ print :P
20:34:56 <olsner> `run echo YYY | grep '[a-z]'
20:35:16 <oerjan> (btw you can still use [:upper:] and [:lower:] slightly more portably.)
20:36:06 <olsner> brr, grep shouldn't use locales
20:36:08 <olsner> I use grep in scripts and don't want it to be weird
20:36:14 <boily> `run echo ZZZ | grep -Finr '[a-z]'
20:36:23 <boily> `run echo ZZZ | grep -Einr '[a-z]'
20:36:37 <boily> `run echo ééé | grep -Einr '[a-z]'
20:37:02 <oerjan> olsner: just unset all the environment variables, _so_ simple.
20:37:22 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
20:37:52 <boily> `run echo øøø | grep -Ei '[a-z]'
20:37:57 -!- dan200 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:38:06 <boily> `run echo ẍẍẍ | grep -Ei '[a-z]'
20:38:30 <olsner> using -i doesn't exactly demonstrate the weirdness
20:38:43 <boily> `run echo ẍẍẍ | grep -E '[a-z]'
20:38:51 <boily> `run echo ẍẍẍ | grep '[a-z]'
20:39:08 <boily> `run echo ꝑꝑꝑ | grep '[a-z]'
20:40:38 <oerjan> olsner: oh actually LC_ALL takes precedence over the rest, so just set that.
20:41:23 <olsner> actually, I don't mind if weird localized people get broken results, they should just learn english and set their locale to C
20:41:44 <boily> (that was a norwegian bleh, mind you.)
20:41:51 <olsner> boily: are you weird and localized?
20:42:18 <boily> olsner: définitivement.
20:42:26 -!- Bike has joined.
20:43:24 <boily> the approximants. they disagree with my tongue.
20:45:40 <boily> right. approximants in Danish, weird vowels in Swedish, and I'm confused by the nynorsk/bokmål dichotomy.
20:45:55 <oerjan> looking at the grep man page, it actually describes this [a-z] weirdness quite explicitly.
20:46:47 <oerjan> nynorsk has slightly more interesting vowels.
20:48:18 <olsner> I think förträffligt starts with [fœ̞ˈʈ]
20:48:34 <oerjan> for example, en:the arabs = bm:araberne = nn:arabarane
20:49:57 <oerjan> = dk:araberne = sv:arabarna , MAYBE
20:51:37 <boily> and while we're at it, do we have a local Iceland representant?
20:52:23 <olsner> boily: I don't know what the Sundanese word is
20:53:07 <metasepia> Sundance Resort is a ski resort located 13 miles northeast of Provo, Utah on Mount Timpanogos in Utah's Wasatch Range.
20:53:29 <olsner> but I do know that sundanese is one of those languages that calls itself bahasa/basa something
20:53:37 <oerjan> boily: also re approximants: rødgrød med fløde
20:54:05 <boily> oerjan: the canonical approximant shibboleth.
20:55:06 <oerjan> also swedish has the sje-sound.
20:55:18 <boily> oh, the curvy-taily h.
20:56:16 <boily> we have [œ̃], which even metropolitan French has lost.
20:56:24 <oerjan> and many norwegian dialects, including mine, have the "thick" l (it's also in some swedish.)
20:56:37 <boily> oerjan: thick l, as in Klingon?
20:56:51 <oerjan> and both norwegian and swedish are full of retroflexes.
20:57:14 <oerjan> boily: i am not familiar with the klingon pronunciation.
20:57:24 <HackEgo> 923) <olsner> as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just like welsh ll" or "that's just like klingon tlh"
20:57:53 <oerjan> i don't think norwegian thick l is close to either of them.
20:58:01 <olsner> is this the thick l? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_lateral_approximant
20:58:09 <oerjan> it's a retroflex lateral flap, or something like that.
20:59:57 * boily does «lll... llllll... *choke* ghlllll...»
21:00:04 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:00:21 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_flap apparently it is
21:00:40 <nooodl> it sounds very un-/ɭ/-like...
21:01:03 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#Consonants lists both your and the flap and says they're allophones.
21:01:21 <olsner> I'd consider the retroflex flap the thick one
21:01:31 <olsner> the one I linked is just an l I think
21:02:19 <oerjan> well, the one you linked is the one you'd expect from -rl- sandhi in a dialect which has retroflexes but _not_ the genuine flap.
21:03:21 <olsner> hmm, yeah, it should be according to the text, but the sample didn't sound very 'rl'y
21:03:21 <oerjan> ah, i think i use it instead of the flap in some positions, like "forlag".
21:03:34 <boily> seems Québec French and Japanese are the only (at least semi-major) languages which have unvoiced vowels.
21:05:17 <boily> elliott: you are conal.
21:06:08 <boily> elliott: you are also completely insane.
21:06:32 <boily> editting those quotes by hand reveals a *lot* of information on y'all.
21:07:02 <Bike> what is revealed about i, bike
21:07:47 <boily> eeeeh... I recall reformatting your quotes earlier today. vaguely.
21:08:12 <boily> you are Bike, I guess. also, I nobody should touch your eyes again. last time was scary.
21:08:35 <oerjan> Bike: your complete disregard of english grammar
21:08:59 <Bike> is it revealed that i should do my vhdl assignment
21:09:14 <boily> Bike: disregard vhdl, acquire insanity.
21:09:51 <Bike> i was already reading about auditory hallucinations earlier!!
21:11:17 <olsner> it seems we have nothing on this topic
21:11:33 <olsner> maybe you hallucinated it?
21:11:42 <Bike> not... i wasn't reading them /here/
21:12:20 <olsner> well, if it was hallucinated you didn't really read at all, anywhere
21:15:07 <oerjan> `run echo "You are just imagining this wisdom entry." >wisdom/hallucination
21:16:11 <Bike> i said auditory
21:16:24 <boily> Bike: the wisdom *is* auditory.
21:16:40 <oerjan> when boily gets finished with it, anyway.
21:18:53 <boily> oerjan: just went through elliott's quotes. the pdf is updated. that was one hardcore reformatting session.
21:19:00 <olsner> auditory wisdom will have fun with `? szoup
21:19:17 * boily szmackzs olsner with a wooden laddle.
21:19:59 <olsner> oerjan: igen! igen? jag missade första gången isåfall
21:20:20 <oerjan> itt swedish-hungarian puns
21:20:49 <boily> Roujo: t'as pas un jeu de mots poche avec du hongrois à travers qui traine dans le coin, par hasard?
21:21:34 <olsner> something about words for traversing a train of coins?
21:21:50 <oerjan> boily: i recommend using something with "harmadik"
21:22:25 <olsner> oerjan: I think I missed the hungarian part of that pun
21:23:53 <boily> olsner: «jeu de mots»: pun. «poche»: sl. of bad quality. «à travers»: sl. through, mixed in. «traine»: to be left about. «coin»: corner, random place, spot.
21:24:03 <oerjan> olsner: igen, hogy ezt tetted.
21:24:13 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
21:24:36 <olsner> the szoup quote was harder to find than I expected because it fails to even mention the hungarian word for soup
21:25:03 <oerjan> olsner: ...because that is the one word i replaced XD...
21:26:05 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
21:26:32 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
21:27:21 -!- boily has quit (Quit: La banane est un fruit nocturne.).
21:27:24 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:29:21 <kmc> elliott: you de-voiced me
21:29:39 <olsner> it seems hungarian now only wants two hogy in that sentence
21:30:20 <oerjan> i am uncertain about the hogy in my answer above, too.
21:30:57 <oerjan> of course the joke, back then, was that hogy is a grammatical word with several different meanings.
21:31:19 <oerjan> well, part of it, anyway.
21:31:27 <kmc> "hogy hogy hogy hogy" gives me "how to make"
21:31:35 <kmc> but any more than that is just "that that that that that..."
21:31:58 <oerjan> i got "how to make it"
21:32:09 <kmc> statistical translation is pretty funny... Google used to translate Latin "quid pro quo" as "What happens in Vegas"
21:32:39 <oerjan> oh wait, the capitalization was different
21:32:59 <oerjan> kmc: heh that almost makes some kind of sense
21:35:28 <oerjan> A harmadik ember is apparently the correct translation of a certain film title.
21:36:22 <oerjan> http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%80%9EHarmadik_ember%E2%80%9D-%C3%A9rv
21:36:49 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/WWII.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/WWI-re.png
21:37:23 <Bike> oh, the powers
21:37:57 <Bike> why is burma labeled as axis but not france?
21:39:08 <Bike> same with ethiopia, etc etc.
21:41:03 <oerjan> um that's thailand, not burma.
21:41:26 <oerjan> and ethiopia was invaded by italy.
21:41:34 <kmc> I guess the blue dots are countries that got invaded and occupied by the Axis during the war?
21:41:37 <kmc> looks less one-sided then
21:41:47 <Bike> god damn it, do i seriously not still have southeast asia straight ;_;
21:41:51 <kmc> was there much action in South America, or the southern half of Africa?
21:42:11 <kmc> Madagascar got invaded by the British
21:42:11 <Bike> no oerjan's right
21:42:25 <Bike> burma just has a dot
21:42:30 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
21:42:38 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_LZ_104#Africa_flight
21:42:42 <kmc> (WW I naturally)
21:43:01 <Bike> anyway this thing counts manchuria as axis too, so i don't get the difference between "axis" and "occupied"
21:43:15 <Bike> i guess you could say ethiopia and manchuria were invaded before the war, but that's kinda arbitrary
21:43:41 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not particularly, where else do you draw the line
21:44:02 <kmc> well it's more about where you draw the line of when the war started, no?
21:44:08 <Bike> right that's what i meant
21:44:16 <Bike> some people count the sino-japanese war as part of wwii, and so on
21:44:48 <oerjan> Bike: you can claim you were confused by bangladesh not being a separate country
21:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> never actually realised burma and bangladesh shared a border
21:45:24 <Bike> oerjan: no, i really should have this straight by now, it's pathetic.
21:45:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: burma is very mean to bangladeshi migrants.
21:46:00 <Bike> and also people who are de facto burmese but they say are bangladeshi sooooo
21:46:48 <oerjan> hey, _someone_ has to do the job of breaking the illusion that buddhists are more peaceful than muslims.
21:46:52 <Phantom_Hoover> that bangladesh is bad enough that people want to leave for burma doesn't really surprise me, but it's still a grim juxtaposition
21:47:14 <Bike> "By 1941 it became illegal, among other things, to ridicule those who attempted to promote national customs" sounds enforceable
21:47:41 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:47:55 <Bike> oerjan: that's... one way to think about it :V
21:48:58 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: bangladesh turns back refugees from arakan too. it's kind of shitty all around!
21:49:39 <Bike> hm, maybe my problem is that arakan looks kind of like thailand
21:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> that doesn't surprise me either (even before i found my way to the wp page on the rohingya)
21:50:38 <Bike> with that little spiny outpost in the lower right, i mean, except thailand's is more curvy
21:50:51 <Bike> well, i guess burma looks like that too.
21:50:54 <Bike> anyway. pathetic
21:59:28 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
22:04:54 -!- Bike has joined.
22:09:21 -!- OriginalOldMan has joined.
22:10:21 <oerjan> `run echo Test *test* test
22:10:51 <oerjan> Roujo: it only worked the first time because you hadn't made the testing file yet
22:12:13 -!- Koen_ has joined.
22:12:58 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:13:13 -!- Koen_ has joined.
22:14:07 <oerjan> <Koen_> hello, future oerjan <-- hi
22:14:49 <Koen_> so how was the future?
22:15:05 <Koen_> we can call it the past now then
22:15:07 <Bike> i feel let down.
22:15:30 <Koen_> Bike: so i take it you've been lobbied against then
22:15:35 <oerjan> Bike: i haven't got to your real abuse yet, will probably punish you afterwards
22:16:26 <oerjan> i don't know, i haven't got to it yet
22:16:27 <Bike> the empire of bike happened
22:16:31 <Bike> it ws glorious
22:17:44 <Koen_> oh so you're still the future oerjan
22:17:54 <Koen_> it's not in the past yet
22:19:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:19:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:23:15 <oerjan> Bike: looks like it was cut short
22:23:41 <Bike> well, elliott gave me op back for some reason.
22:23:46 <Bike> but the empire's spirit was dead by then.
22:24:03 <oerjan> the ghost of empires past
22:24:11 * Bike weeps for his power
22:24:29 <oerjan> ...ok now i'm imagining a christmas carol with scrooge replaced by hitler.
22:25:51 <oerjan> `run WeLcOmE OriginalOldMan | rainbow
22:25:54 <HackEgo> OrIgInAlOlDmAn: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
22:26:42 <oerjan> that was a particularly light choice of colors today
22:27:09 <shachaf> `run relcome OriginalOldMan | rainbow
22:27:12 <HackEgo> OriginalOldMan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:27:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainbow
22:27:30 <shachaf> was hoping for something more disastrous
22:28:14 <oerjan> shachaf: rainbow is designed to potentially fill up the line with color chars, so repeating it should have little effect
22:29:07 <oerjan> `run echo Testing | rainbow | rainbow #This might work
22:29:22 <shachaf> Yes, that's the kind of thing I was hoping to see.
22:29:40 <oerjan> "Testing" is too short for rainbow to fill up the line with colors
22:29:57 <Bike> `run ? Bike | rainbow | rainbow
22:30:00 <HackEgo> 06B1i06ke11 8is4 f10r2o8m13 06Lu2xe11m02b4o08u09rg11.
22:30:13 <oerjan> since it doesn't do redundant color changes in sequence
22:30:23 <Bike> `run ? Bike | rainbow | rainbow | rainbow | rainbow | rainbow
22:30:26 <HackEgo> 0507B02ik089e098 i140s 610f14ro028m 1213L1107u409xe0305mb11o034u08rg04.403
22:30:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
22:30:28 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:30:29 <Bike> is there a power operation in bash
22:30:45 <kmc> `run echo $((2**10))
22:30:54 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:30:55 <Bike> i mean composition power.
22:31:02 <oerjan> Bike: it won't get longer once it has filled up the line length (350 bytes) with color codes + original text
22:31:09 <shachaf> kmc: you can't go voicing people like that
22:31:22 <kmc> we have children here?!?!? fuck
22:31:39 <pikhq> Is elliott a children?
22:31:46 <kmc> not anymore, by law
22:31:57 <Bike> everybody flirt with elliott at once
22:32:21 <pikhq> elliott: Me love you long time.
22:32:29 <kmc> great flirting, 9.5 / 10
22:32:58 <kmc> (I may not be the best judge of such things)
22:33:11 <oerjan> Bike: i don't think so, it doesn't seem particularly useful
22:33:23 <kmc> PH: I think you're supposed to be more subtle than that
22:33:26 <Bike> oerjan: it's useful for rerererererainbowing!
22:33:45 <elliott> not sure PUAs understand the concept of "subtlety"
22:33:52 <elliott> or the concept of uh. anything
22:34:00 <Phantom_Hoover> like “Me, I like a girl with a couple extra pounds on her” ?
22:34:07 <kmc> nothing wrong with that PH
22:34:17 <kmc> let's not talk about PUA though
22:34:19 <kmc> that's just depressing
22:34:30 <Bike> with my voice, i make it law
22:34:30 <Fiora> I think I agree with kmc
22:34:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Bike.
22:34:40 <elliott> oerjan: Proto-Uto-Aztecan language
22:35:04 <pikhq> Well, I suppose if I'm going to flirt with elliott I should determine how androphilic he is.
22:35:17 <pikhq> elliott: On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like the cock?
22:35:37 <oerjan> i happen to know elliott likes coq
22:37:32 <oerjan> oh so that's what it means.
22:37:59 <Bike> yes. it means cock
22:39:28 <oerjan> also, i have a hunch elliott doesn't like this subject, so let's talk about prepromorphisms or something.
22:39:44 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: have you tried possing instead
22:39:48 * kmc makes a note to use the word "androphile" more often
22:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (the joke was that it was an excerpt from a lyttle lytton entry, hth)
22:40:50 * Bike stuffs Phantom_Hoover into a locker
22:41:18 -!- OriginalOldMan has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:42:16 <kmc> my friend was trying to think of single straight guys he knows in New York but I think by "straight" he meant "interested in women" and by "single" he meant "available"
22:43:04 <pikhq> kmc: So, *not* excluding bi guys then.
22:45:10 <kmc> there's that tshirt "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is"
22:45:49 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:46:12 <Koen_> it's funny how five years ago I hadn't heard of any one being bi but today nearly a third of my friends say they are
22:46:34 <kmc> different friends or the same ones as five years ago?
22:46:44 <Bike> entranced by your organs no doubt
22:46:59 <pikhq> Bike: Oh baby, gimme some more of that liver.
22:47:13 <Koen_> are you suggesting I might have accessed a different social circle recently?
22:47:38 <Bike> pikhq: shower your lymph all over me
22:48:07 <kmc> Koen_: social circles do tend to shift over time, yeah
22:48:25 <kmc> I'm just wondering if the trend is people you already knew telling you they're bi, or you meeting new people, or both
22:48:43 <shachaf> are you truly the same person you were five years ago
22:48:47 <shachaf> imo that's the real question
22:49:10 <Koen_> kmc I think the trend is that more people are bi today than five years ago
22:49:31 <kmc> a lot of my friends have at least /some/ interest in both directions... whether or not to self-identify as bi based on that is pretty personal and arbitrary
22:49:40 <Koen_> also maybe my friends are (in average) older than my friends were (in average) five years ago, and thus have more sexual experience
22:49:45 <shachaf> imo self-identification considered harmful
22:50:10 <Koen_> well I had never thought that age might just be it
22:50:35 <Koen_> I had a feeling it was somewhat more fashionable to be bi today than it was before
22:50:48 <kmc> that's a loaded way to put it
22:50:59 <kmc> but maybe, yeah
22:51:17 <kmc> another way to put it would be that there's less pressure to hide it now
22:51:32 <Koen_> well that's not exactly saying the same thing
22:52:08 <Koen_> I once heard someone say that there was effectively less pressure, and that saying it had anything to do with being fashionable was highly homophobic
22:52:26 <Fiora> I don't know, I still get the feeling that there's just as much negativity as there used to be...
22:52:38 <kmc> it really depends on the context
22:52:41 <Koen_> but there's also more resistance Fiora
22:52:42 <kmc> who you interact with
22:52:54 <Fiora> bisexual people still "get all the fun", are "sex fiends", are "just trying to look good for the guys", or just plain don't exist
22:53:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> there's that tshirt "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is"
22:53:49 <pikhq> "Look good for the guys" ohhh my
22:53:54 <Koen_> when you say "just trying to look good for the guys" are you talking about bi people in general or about "lesbians pretending to be somewhat available to guys"?
22:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> my first response to this was 'ah i get it, the wearer is female' then i realised why that was stuped
22:54:06 <kmc> Koen_: I'm not sure it's inherently homophobic to say there's an element of fashion to it, but as soon as you start telling people that their self-identification X is wrong and they're just doing it for reason Y, that's pretty dangerous ground
22:54:16 <Fiora> Koen_: the stereotype that bisexual women are actually straight girls trying to look "hot"
22:54:18 <Bike> Koen_: about bi women being described as being straight women pretending to be bi because men think it's hot
22:54:25 <pikhq> Koen_: Probably more hetero women pretending to be somewhat available to girls, because "lesbians are hawt"
22:54:38 <kmc> I mean, some of them are, though
22:54:43 <kmc> it's more about applying that stereotype to all bisexual people
22:54:54 <kmc> also, you don't have to be that sexually attracted to someone to have fun making out with them
22:54:55 <Fiora> it's still very common and generally results in bi women getting flak from both straight /and/ gay women
22:54:57 <Koen_> kmc: well I just observed that all girl friends I had who said they were bi happened to have a boyfriend
22:55:30 <Koen_> though I guess statistically for bi girls there are more boyfriends available than girlfriends
22:55:38 <kmc> it's not, like, fraudulant to make out with someone you don't want to fuck
22:55:53 <Bike> plz turn in makeout license
22:56:00 <pikhq> Yup, the dating pool for bi people is weighted as heck.
22:56:01 <kmc> Koen_: sexual interest is different from relationship interest, too
22:56:20 <Koen_> are you suggesting they might be cheating on their boyfriend?
22:56:21 <Fiora> Koen_: also, if they have a girlfriend but say they're bi, they will probably attract quite a bit more unwanted interest
22:56:50 <Fiora> because men take "I am bi and have a girlfriend" as code for "I want a man"
22:57:15 -!- ^v has joined.
22:57:17 <kmc> Koen_: it's not cheating if he's OK with it
22:57:35 <kmc> Koen_: but it's also fine to identify as sexually interested in women, without currently having your hand in someone's vagina
22:57:53 <Fiora> it's also okay to call yourself bisexual even if you've /never had sex/
22:57:55 <Koen_> pikhq: actually I have always wondered how it was possible that so many gay friends of mine had boyfriends - I mean my gay friend in couple / gay friend not in couple is higher than my straight male friend in couple / straight male friend ratio
22:58:13 <Koen_> though statistically it should be easier for a straight guy to find a girlfriend
22:59:05 <Koen_> kmc: I beg to differ, a lot of guys are not ok when they don't currently have their hand or other body part in someone's vagina
22:59:30 <pikhq> Maybe there's more to it than just dating pool size though.
23:01:19 <kmc> maybe your friends who are gay don't feel the need to advertise this fact to you unless they're dating a guy
23:01:41 <pikhq> "Have I mentioned I'm gay today?" :)
23:01:59 <Koen_> pikhq: yeah I felt very weird when I learned my cousin was gay
23:02:24 <shachaf> Fiora: imo what's with the "men do X" thing
23:02:52 <Koen_> pikhq: because I was so surprised not to know that already
23:04:23 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:05:37 <Koen_> kmc: I hadn't thought about that
23:07:06 <kmc> the use of the term "cheating" to describe any non-monogamous situation really pisses me off... cheating = lying, breaking rules, etc.
23:07:23 <kmc> if everyone involved is aware of what's happening and is okay with it, /that's not cheating/
23:07:27 <kmc> this happens more often than you might expect
23:07:39 <Koen_> Fiora: it's also okay to call yourself bisexual even if you've /never had sex/ <<< I realize I would never call myself anything anyway so that wouldn't apply
23:07:55 <kmc> of course as a society we make an exception for "single" men, who are allowed to sleep around as much as they want without it being "cheating"
23:08:02 <pikhq> There is a term for "uninterested in sex" FWIW. :P
23:08:21 <Koen_> kmc: as far as I know I have exactly one friend who's into that
23:08:43 <Koen_> (either that or other friends want to keep that a secret)
23:09:09 * pikhq is also some sort of non-monogamous...
23:09:32 <kmc> I have remarkably few personal secrets...
23:09:40 <kmc> keeping secrets is too much effort
23:09:44 <pikhq> I'm kinda bad at 'em.
23:09:47 <kmc> plus secretly (!) I like to brag
23:09:56 <Koen_> kmc: also note that "non-monogamous" implies one man and several women, not the other way around
23:10:08 <kmc> Koen_: no, it definitely does not
23:10:25 <kmc> that is a traditional meaning of the word "polygamy" yeah
23:10:29 <Koen_> did you just break what I knew about vocabulary? :(
23:10:29 <kmc> not the only meaning, either
23:10:33 <kmc> but I would avoid that word for that reason
23:10:36 <kmc> (and for others)
23:11:01 <pikhq> -gamy is the a suffix for "marriage"...
23:11:07 <Koen_> when I was in highschool we had a Nigerian teacher who came to talk about the differences between France and Niger
23:11:26 <Koen_> he began by introducing himself and ended by answering our questions
23:11:30 <pikhq> It just happens that people think multiple women when discussing non-monogamous things.
23:11:33 <kmc> (another reason to not keep secrets: I'm in a position due to various privileges and life circumstances to say "fuck 'em" to the people who would hate me for these things, rather than being afraid of them)
23:11:39 <Koen_> he's introduction included "I'm monogamous"
23:11:52 <Koen_> so one of the question was "is having several wives legal in Niger?"
23:12:00 <kmc> yes "polygyny" and "polyandry" are specific anthropological terms
23:12:16 <Koen_> to which the teacher answered by explaining why that was okay and why the student shouldn't be shocked
23:12:23 <kmc> "graph minor isomorphic to K_5" less used in the literature
23:12:29 <Koen_> then the student asked, "is it legal for a woman to have several husbands in Niger?"
23:12:36 <Koen_> the teacher was very shocked
23:12:45 <Koen_> "HOW WOULD THAT MAKE ANY SENSE"
23:13:01 <pikhq> Did somebody say "gangbang"?
23:13:07 <kmc> you, just now
23:13:28 <kmc> people have double standards about practically *everything* involving sex and relationships
23:13:32 <kmc> it's kind of remarkable
23:14:12 <kmc> sometimes the double standards are clearly in the interests of the patriarchy
23:14:15 <kmc> sometimes they are just baffling
23:16:06 <pikhq> Sex in general is best described as "complicated".
23:16:45 -!- Bike has joined.
23:16:59 <Fiora> I can never hope to understand it
23:18:08 <kmc> pikhq: yeah... but I would much rather have the complications that come from people actually feeling strongly about each other, over the complications that come from following arbitrary rules that never made any sense to me or the people i'm with
23:18:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq just has too short nick
23:18:20 <kmc> to me these are fairly different in kind
23:19:10 <kmc> I will probably not understand why monogamy is such a compelling default to most of the population... but the same goes for theism, and lots of other things
23:19:30 <kmc> of course people are plenty bad at actually following the rules of monogamy, or of your theistic religion of choice
23:21:23 <Bike> depends on "the population". historically (institutionalized) polygyny has been more common than monogamy
23:21:29 <kmc> that's true
23:21:32 <Bike> historically and worldwide. w/e.
23:21:50 <kmc> I mean among people I'm generally pretty close to culturally
23:23:09 <Bike> yeah i just felt like mentioning that.
23:23:21 <Bike> since it moves you to cultural norms rather than "human norms".
23:23:43 <Fiora> kmc: maybe at least to me the appeal comes from the idea of like, having a person you can cling to and rely on and know they'll be there, and you'll be there for them, and that you'll always be their priority?
23:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "i'll never understand theism" is a pretty internet atheisty statement to me tbh
23:25:31 <Fiora> it's a little easy to shrug off monogamy when you feel like you can get through all of life's challenges on your own, but not everyone feels that way...
23:25:34 <Koen_> I'll never understand why people have war over religions
23:25:43 <Bike> they don't, generally.
23:25:53 <Bike> any more than the pig war was about a pig.
23:26:49 <Bike> also holy christ circuit design programs are complicated, fucking hell
23:27:41 <Bike> this is the program that i had to download as a five GB tarball, have i mentioned that here
23:27:52 <Phantom_Hoover> verilog sounds really cool to me but i've never really gotten into it
23:29:11 <Bike> right now i'm doing the super cool circuit design of "connecting a switch to a light"
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23:30:01 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: I was Arc_Koen because there was that guy on freenode who owned the Koen nick
23:30:03 <Bike> "If using the DEPP interface uncomment lines 25-28" hoping this had to do with johnny
23:30:17 <Koen_> but I've recently decided I was the real Koen and didn't needed the Arc_
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23:30:51 <Bike> the zen thing, one assumes
23:31:13 <oerjan> what is the sound of one word cognating
23:32:12 <Bike> i should probably find an emacs mode and ditch this thing
23:34:03 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, good point... I don't feel like I can get through life's challenges alone, and I depend on a wonderful committed partner all the time
23:34:28 <kmc> but it would also be totally unfair of me to expect her and her alone to satisfy all of my physical and emotional needs
23:34:34 <kmc> (or vice versa)
23:34:39 <kmc> in fact I think the stress of doing so would destroy our relationship
23:35:08 <kmc> so I'm very glad that neither of us feels any pressure for that to be the case
23:35:11 <Fiora> I guess sex makes it compliated -_-
23:35:23 <kmc> I think it's complicated either way, but yeah
23:35:35 <Fiora> but that's the whole physical needs thing right
23:35:41 <kmc> sure but it's not only about that
23:35:42 <Bike> well he said "emotional needs"
23:36:06 <Solain> i feel as tht i shouldnt be seeing be in this irc in this time of the night
23:36:20 <Bike> you can deal w/it
23:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover> don't think monogamy entails exclusivity over 'emotional needs' really
23:36:40 <Fiora> yeah... I was thinking the same
23:36:41 <kmc> that depends on who you ask
23:36:47 <kmc> and what exactly you mean
23:36:48 <Fiora> but I guess ... yeah
23:36:56 <kmc> "emotional cheating" is definitely a thing people talk about
23:37:03 <kmc> facebook cyber-flirting
23:37:03 <Bike> «If using the DEPP interface uncomment lines 25-28» have so little idea of what i'm doing
23:37:07 <Bike> er wrong paste
23:37:10 <kmc> twitter ultra-sexing
23:37:15 <Fiora> that's... emotional cheating?
23:37:18 <Bike> well i don't understand that either, so assume i don't know anything about anything.
23:37:20 <kmc> Bike: you better uncomment it
23:38:05 <kmc> anyway most people would say that marriage is about more than sex, so I would assume they think monogamy is about more than sexual exclusivity too?
23:38:18 <kmc> but the whole thing makes me go a bit :psyduck:
23:38:47 <Fiora> I guess it's about guaranteeing that both people will always view the other as their primary care and responsibility, emotionally and otherwise...?
23:39:01 <Fiora> I don't know, socially-defined constructs like that based around sex confuse me
23:41:04 <Bike> start with two files. build. end with forty files and six subdirectories.
23:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think they probably mean you're meant to be emotionally invested in your partner, not rely on them exclusively
23:41:38 <kmc> by the way I don't mean to imply that arrangements with only two people are bad or wrong (for anyone, or for myself)
23:41:51 <Bike> i don't know what most of them are, in fact.
23:42:11 <Bike> for example, a .xrpt.
23:42:13 <kmc> you can have such arrangements without having a rigid external rule that this is the only acceptable way to do anything ever
23:42:33 <Bike> oh, it's "Xml RePorT"
23:42:34 <Solain> excuse me for interupting your conversetion, but i found the medical expretise which consults bones and muscles, its called "orthopedics" in english. you can find more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopedic_surgery; we have a more accurate name in hebrew though
23:42:49 <kmc> CASH FOR BONES
23:42:55 <kmc> MUSCLES FOR BONES
23:43:37 <Bike> wow this is the pinout as csv
23:43:54 <kmc> Solain: why are you telling us this
23:43:59 <Bike> "T8,sw,IOB,IO_L31N_GCLK30_D15_2,INPUT,LVCMOS25*,2,,,,NONE,,UNLOCATED,NO,NONE,"
23:46:10 <Roujo> Huh, Solain is back
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23:46:36 <Roujo> <kmc> [19:37:10] twitter ultra-sexing
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23:46:48 <kmc> Roujo: totally not a thing I just made up
23:47:19 <Roujo> I mean, if we're talking about cheating, I'm pretty sure twitter ultra-sexing applies
23:47:27 <Bike> "$2.77 × 10^15 + $3.99 shipping" yay amazon
23:47:34 <Roujo> Like, basic cheating. Not emotional cheating.
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23:47:43 <Bike> relationship advice: does following voidsexts constitute cheating
23:47:59 <kmc> what if you pixelate out your junk before you twitpic it to a congressman
23:48:13 <Roujo> public void sex(Relationship *arg)
23:48:14 <kmc> #esoteric should totally write a relationship advice column
23:48:35 <Bike> Roujo: https://twitter.com/voidsexts
23:48:39 <kmc> what language uses 'public' that way and also has *-pointers? checkmate
23:48:48 <Roujo> Bike: Failing advice, I gave you some pointers...
23:49:26 <Roujo> Bike: Huh. I don't think it counts, no
23:50:40 <Roujo> [19:45:19] <kmc> [19:34:28] but it would also be totally unfair of me to expect her and her alone to satisfy all of my physical and emotional needs
23:50:40 <Roujo> [19:45:19] <kmc> [19:34:33] (or vice versa)
23:50:40 <Roujo> [19:45:19] <kmc> [19:34:39] in fact I think the stress of doing so would destroy our relationship
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23:51:06 <Solain> those insta messeges scared me
23:51:12 <Bike> i don't think you need to paste three lines just to "++" in the future
23:51:22 <Roujo> Here's a cautionary tail, though
23:51:30 <Roujo> (Bike: There's more coming up)
23:51:36 <Roujo> I have to provide context and all
23:51:44 <Roujo> But yeah. Cautionary tail of sorts
23:51:56 <Roujo> That's the kind of relationship I build with my SO
23:52:40 <Roujo> "Your SO doesn't have to fill every emotional need you have"
23:52:44 <Roujo> It worked, to a point
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23:53:10 <Roujo> It worked well, no pressure and all, until we got to the last few months
23:53:30 <Roujo> When I realized that since I wasn't expecting her to fill any particular need, I found ways to fill them elsewhere
23:53:38 <Roujo> Which put her in a weird position in my mind
23:54:01 <Koen_> SO stands for significant other right?
23:54:21 <Koen_> I first thought of "soulmate" but that acronym is already taken I reckon
23:54:36 <oerjan> it's SO weird to see that term which i remember from old usenet
23:55:06 <Roujo> It seems that by trying not to put pressure on my SO to fill my needs, I just bypassed her for most of them
23:55:31 <Roujo> So I ended up in a situation where she wasn't my go-to person for any non-physical need
23:56:03 <Roujo> Which lead to a not-so-nice situation where I was wondering what was special between us two
23:56:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes
23:56:19 <Roujo> Since most of what I needed, I could find elsewhere - and did
23:56:36 <Bike> your SO(2) group
23:56:41 <Koen_> Roujo: It worked well, no pressure and all, until we got to the last few months <<< I read that as "we had a countdown-to-separation already in place and we reacting badly to it going under a few months
23:56:46 <Roujo> So yeah. The realization was recent (weeks, really), so I'm still recovering
23:57:54 <Koen_> oh so that's actually a countdown-to-marriage!
23:58:08 <Roujo> Well, vaguely, yeah
23:58:13 <Bike> t minus one million seconds
23:58:14 <Roujo> But there's no date yet, so not really
23:58:34 <Bike> oh, that's eleven days
23:58:36 <Roujo> Anyway. We're still recovering and trying to get back close to one another
23:58:40 <Bike> congrats on being married in eleven days
00:00:02 <Roujo> So yeah. TL;DR: Wanting your SO to fill *some* of your emotional needs is healthier for me than not caring *who* fills them. IANALD, YMMV.
00:00:10 <Bike> why do journals without websites even exist
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00:02:11 <Roujo> Nothing happened mmmkay
00:02:37 <Roujo> As it turns out, I can just /clear my backlog
00:04:09 <Solain> good night everybody, goodbye and happy rosh hashana for everybody whose jewish
00:04:18 -!- Solain has left.
00:04:48 <kmc> Roujo: thank you for sharing your cautionary tale
00:04:58 * kmc thinks about it more
00:05:04 <kmc> also what is "LD" in "IANALD"
00:05:40 <kmc> im not a doctor when it comes to love
00:06:23 <kmc> I think when you are close enough to someone you develop needs that are specific to them
00:06:33 <kmc> like, I don't just want a hug, I want a hug /from her/ because we have all this context that makes it more meaningful
00:06:45 <kmc> this could be true of multiple people in different ways, too
00:07:22 <Jafet> You want a hug /from multiple people/?
00:10:42 <oerjan> i thought they only did that to wasps.
00:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> no, they do it to queens if they stop being reproductively fit and/or anger the proletariat
00:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> the monarchy would be way more entertaining if we did that in the uk imo
00:13:01 <Bike> sterilize everybody in the UK but the queen, to be more like bees
00:13:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: but they'd want to do it to charles, not the queen
00:13:34 <Koen_> Bike: then how do you appoint a new queen?
00:14:10 <Bike> set it up so that a few women randomly become reproductive again when the queens' pheremones stop suppressing them, and then have a cage match to determine which becomes the new queen.
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00:24:50 <Bike> smash the state + replace it with better honeycombing
00:27:16 <Koen_> cage match is dangerous
00:27:35 <Koen_> what if they kill or otherwise mutilate each other
00:27:57 <Bike> i don't think you understand.
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00:38:06 <Koen_> Bike: I'm willing to be enlightened with your explanations and please do feel free to use as much drawings and photos as you want
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00:40:38 <Bike> When a young virgin queen emerges from a queen cell, she will generally seek out virgin queen rivals and attempt to kill them. Virgin queens will quickly find and kill (by stinging) any other emerged virgin queen (or be dispatched themselves), as well as any unemerged queens. Queen cells that are opened on the side indicate that a virgin queen was likely killed by a rival virgin queen. When a colony remains in swarm mode after the prime swarm ...
00:40:44 <Bike> ... has left, the workers may prevent virgins from fighting and one or several virgins may go with after-swarms. Other virgins may stay behind with the remnant of the hive. As many as 21 virgin queens have been counted in a single large swarm.
00:41:19 <Bike> that's not for new queens in the event of a queen dying, o'course
00:42:00 <madbr> kindof trying to find stuff that goes more in detail on how out of order cpus are made
00:42:08 <madbr> they are all incredibly vague
00:42:25 <Bike> isn't that in any modern microarchitecture design textbook
00:43:14 <madbr> like, for the general stuff they explain it
00:43:19 <oerjan> they're not really vague, just printed in the wrong order
00:43:37 <madbr> the register rename thing
00:43:44 <madbr> and reorder buffer
00:43:48 <Bike> do you need register renaming for ooe
00:44:01 <Bike> i had this idea that that was intel being weird as usual
00:44:06 <Koen_> is it a good idea to learn asm by writing C programs, compiling them, then using otool on the binary?
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00:44:28 <kmc> not the worst idea
00:44:38 <Bike> my friend said he was automating his architecture homework by writing a "C to MIPS translator"
00:44:40 <madbr> afaik ooe is normally essentially hardware SSA
00:44:40 <kmc> C compilers will use a different subset of asm than you would probably want to write by hand
00:44:45 <Bike> that was a good chuckle
00:44:54 <kmc> especially on x86
00:45:13 <madbr> like, you have a stream of instructions coming in
00:45:24 <madbr> you turn that into a stream of microops
00:46:06 <madbr> you have a ring buffer of microops and assign them consecutively
00:46:07 <kmc> if you are writing x86 asm by hand you can mostly pretend it's a nice simple RISC-ish architecture... but compilers will exercise a lot of the stranger corners for performance
00:46:24 <madbr> while the retirement logic retires the other end of the queue
00:46:32 <kmc> (although there are also a lot of weird instructions that *seem* useful but are actually too slow)
00:46:50 <kmc> (if compilers don't produce them then chip designers don't optimize them)
00:47:15 <Bike> compiler outputs only bcd instructions
00:47:35 <madbr> since you have a ring buffer of microops already you can simply assign results to a parallel ring buffer of result registers
00:47:46 <madbr> bang, you have register renaming
00:48:33 <madbr> It might be possible to make an OOE cpu without renaming but I'm not sure it makes any sense
00:49:13 <kmc> I wonder if the course materials for MIT's 6.823 would be useful
00:49:15 <kmc> they are online
00:49:35 <madbr> so at any moment you have a queue of instructions that load values from other location in the queue
00:49:46 <madbr> and with a flag to say that the result is valid
00:50:17 <madbr> and then a bunch of execution units
00:50:48 <madbr> and somehow on each cycle it figures out which instruction to assign to each unit
00:50:56 <madbr> with low propagation delay
00:51:23 <Fiora> from what I remember it simply assigns in order of availability (?)
00:51:43 <Fiora> so like, if instruction X can use p0, p1, or p5, it has pretty much equal probability of hitting any of them if they're all free.
00:53:07 <madbr> so it combs through all the non-ready instructions in the queue, checks all of them for having all ready operands, then picks the first 3 ones that are doable?
00:54:48 <madbr> isn't that a lot of computation to do in essentially very low latency gate networks?
00:55:46 <Fiora> Um, I think I remember reading in one place that in like a recent CPU, the "clock bottleneck" (like, the longest latency between two steps of the pipeline?) came from something like "select the first 4 executable instructions from this queue of 40"
00:56:10 <Fiora> like the dependencies and stuff are already done, it just has to comb through and mux the first 4?
00:58:17 <madbr> I thought they might have had some crazy heuristic for that
00:59:53 <madbr> I'm kindof surprised that they don't have worse clock bottlenecks from all the wide renamed register files and reorder buffers and crazy associativity
01:00:20 <madbr> and the gazillion of ports involved
01:01:54 <madbr> like, you have, what
01:02:12 <madbr> 4 alus + 2 address calculation units?
01:02:19 <madbr> each one with two read ports
01:03:04 <madbr> that can pull values from any of the wide file of renamed instructions (essentially one register for every instruction in the reorder queue?)
01:03:57 <madbr> That's like 12 read ports and 6 write ports on a 40+ register file
01:19:27 <kmc> are high end CPUs still made with standard cells or do they optimize certain gates at the physical level for lower delay?
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01:21:26 <kmc> time to break out your electron microscope
01:21:32 <kmc> and hydroflouric acid
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01:22:23 <madbr> presumably they'd concentrate on the previously mentioned "clock bottlenecks"
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01:25:09 <kmc> it must be so difficult to optimize for speed, area, power/heat, and yield all at once
01:27:46 <HackEgo> slist 9/4: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:29:29 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure the major secret to Intel's CPU design is "when in doubt throw more money at the problem"
01:30:13 <kmc> that can produce surprisingly poor results
01:30:40 <kmc> money mainly gets used to hire people and the people need to know what the hell they're doing
01:31:57 <pikhq> kmc: See Pentium 4.
01:32:34 <Koen_> funny we had a discussion about go and chess robots earlier and a friend told me the only reason why chess robots were so performant was because so much money had been thrown into it
01:33:04 <kmc> shachaf: -_-
01:33:17 <kmc> yeah it's a funny way of talking about things
01:33:25 <kmc> because "money" is nearly a synonym for "effort"
01:33:35 <kmc> "why is this thing so good" "because people worked on making it good, DUH"
01:34:25 <Koen_> yeah well I was about to tell him why I thought go computers were so bad compared to chess computers
01:34:35 <Koen_> he said "nah it's just the money"
01:34:40 <kmc> computers are good at go now, though http://blog.printf.net/articles/2012/02/23/computers-are-very-good-at-the-game-of-go/
01:35:02 <Koen_> they've started being better than me only very recently
01:35:27 <kmc> likewise the crap about how wanting money is evil... it's how you get the money, and what you use it for, that can be good or evil
01:35:28 <Koen_> and that's stil very very very very very very far from professional players
01:35:45 <Sgeo> kmc: how are they at Arimaa?
01:35:46 <kmc> the stuff about how Real Programmers or Real Artists shouldn't be motivated by money... that's actually incredibly selfish
01:36:20 <kmc> Sgeo: no idea. don't think enough people care about Arimaa
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01:38:37 <kmc> I guess we just assume that people with money will waste it on bougie lifestyle status symbols rather than meaningful experiences, helping friends/family, or helping strangers
01:38:45 <Sgeo> "You can read a commented version of one of its wins against Tromp at GoGameGuru, or you could even play against it yourself on KGS."
01:39:30 <Sgeo> I think I'll do the former. I suck badly enough at Go/I'm enough of a Go newbie that I'd have a limited amount of understanding how its moves are tradionally considered bad
01:40:28 <Sgeo> gogameguru doesn't seem to be loading
01:42:16 <oerjan> wait, is that our tromp
01:43:09 <kmc> trompe le monde
01:44:25 <Koen_> hey, for the record, using monte-carlo in a go program was first done 3km away from my home
01:44:37 <Koen_> and the go program in question became the best go program for a while
01:44:56 <Koen_> and then all go programs started using monte carlo aaaaaaand we never heard of that go program again since
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03:12:44 <Sgeo> Why does OpenSUSE not configure sound card automatically?
03:13:15 <Gregor> Because it's mean and cruel.
03:16:37 <Sgeo> Also need to configure KDE to use the (correctly configured) sound card
03:16:42 * Sgeo bonks head on wall
03:34:07 <Sgeo> sajdfasjfd I better not start feeling nostalgia for Freespire
03:38:50 <Sgeo> At least Linux XP is discontinued
03:40:53 <Sgeo> "Despite frequent calls for a 64-bit edition, the developers have only started considering such possibility in late 2011, arguing that their 32-bit edition works equally well on 64-bit computer systems. "
03:40:57 <Sgeo> [about PCLinuxOS]
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03:46:05 <Sgeo> If someone recomments that a newbie try Linux Mint, they may be confused as to which one to download
03:46:12 <Sgeo> I have not heard of MATE and Cinnamon before now
03:50:16 <Sgeo> Oh hey Amarok's available for Windows
03:50:50 <Sgeo> "Amarok: Comes from the KDE Linux desktop. It is a great media manager with many features. It looks nice but beyond looks it is also very smart."
03:50:58 <Sgeo> "since it is based on GTK, the installation pack is much larger than necessary (over 90Mb)"
03:59:58 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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04:27:33 <kmc> "Spotted car w/ VA license plate NOPSLD."
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05:32:49 <kmc> http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2013/09/03/new-mystery-about-satoshi/
05:35:00 <Bike> decimal gray code <-- ??????
05:36:22 <Bike> «18-10-1960 is the date the article “Socialism, Inflation, and the Thrifty Householder” from Ludwig von Mises was published» lol
05:37:44 <fizzie> A gray code with decimal digits, presumably?
05:37:57 <Bike> well, yes, but why would you ever.
05:38:06 <Bike> on a modern computer, anyway
05:39:19 <kmc> OH: "To get Firefox working in XMonad I think you need some coalgebras"
05:40:02 <shachaf> kmc: that's xterm, not firefox
05:40:23 <shachaf> (the joke is terminal coalgebras)
05:43:21 <shachaf> kmc: remember how Mu is initial and Nu is terminal? good timez
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05:45:22 <shachaf> kmc: would you come to an edwardk talk in sf
05:45:40 <shachaf> hmm, come to think of it, would mozilla maybe have a space for it
05:47:09 <kmc> i don't know
05:47:24 <kmc> now I want to see a decimal gray code
05:49:34 <kmc> probably there are lots of them
05:50:15 <shachaf> Oh, Wikipedia has an example/explanation.
05:50:29 <Bike_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code#n-ary_Gray_code
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05:51:32 <Bike> so 0...8, 9, 19, 10, 11, ...etc
05:54:02 <Bike> i wonder if a boustrephedon would be more convenient. 19, 18, 17, ... 11, 10, 20, 21, 21, ...
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06:12:53 <fizzie> Bike: "-- 20, 21, 21, ..." I guess that's some sort of gray code with extra redundancy thing.
06:17:18 <kmc> a whiter shade of gray
06:23:33 <madbr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdIWKytq_q4&feature=youtu.be
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07:50:45 <Taneb> Guess who's an idiot
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09:22:01 <olsner> seems you've been all kinds of interesting while I was sleeping
09:24:52 <olsner> <kmc> are high end CPUs still made with standard cells? <-- I think that was almost answered by the Intel guy's AMA
09:26:05 <olsner> iirc most of the stuff was done automatically but with their own library of secret sauce, then manual layout for the really important bits
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11:30:33 <Taneb> I have blood on my hands
11:31:14 <Koen_> and no matter what you do about it, there will always remain...
11:31:18 <Koen_> blood IN your hands
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11:58:57 <fizzie> I scrub and I scrub and there's still blood in the hands?
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12:16:53 <boily> good what-is-a-shipping-wall morning!
12:23:17 <boily> I Fiora'ed the wisdom. that document is beginning to look not quite too bad :D
12:24:34 <mnoqy> what does that mean :D
12:25:39 <fizzie> boily: Does page 2 say "blank page" in light grey in the middle, or is that just my PDF viewer?
12:26:12 <boily> mnoqy: http://youtu.be/qLrnkK2YEcE
12:26:16 <boily> fizzie: it is your viewer.
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12:28:38 <boily> I feel the typeface used to render Chinese in “ramen” doesn't look right. do any one of you have any suggestion?
12:30:02 <boily> the stroke weights are all random. 麺 is abnormally thin, 縫 is too heavy, and 樹 is glitched.
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13:19:17 <boily> aaaaah... the soulagement of having chosen the right font. why must tex fonts be oh so complex...
13:21:48 <Taneb> boily, a shipping wall is a wall displaying ships
13:22:46 <boily> (that was a thanks, a hello, and a Taneb all-in-one.)
13:23:21 <Taneb> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004195
13:24:07 <boily> oh, that kind of ship. I gues I just never had seen that much dedication to shipping beforehand.
13:25:05 <boily> (well. nanoha and fate notwithstanding.)
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14:08:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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14:25:52 <boily> upgrade to a cabal 1.18 system: complete!
14:31:20 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: `e'Not in scope: `i'
14:32:26 <boily> ~eval exp (pi * (0 :+ 1))
14:32:46 <boily> Roujo: there you are. -1 + random floating point part.
14:33:13 <Roujo> That's not what I wanted though =P
14:33:46 <Roujo> That's the fun part
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14:34:22 <Bike_> ~eval sqrt(-1) :: Complex
14:34:22 <metasepia> Error (1): Expecting one more argument to `Data.Complex.Complex'
14:34:30 <Bike_> ~eval sqrt(-1) :: Complex Float
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14:52:51 <Roujo> ~eval exp(pi * (sqrt(-1) :: Complex Float))
14:53:16 <boily> ~eval exp $ pi * sqrt -1 :: Complex Float
14:53:17 <metasepia> Error (1): Couldn't match expected type `Data.Complex.Complex GHC.Types.Float'
14:53:29 <boily> ~eval (exp $ pi * sqrt -1) :: Complex Float
14:53:29 <metasepia> Error (1): Couldn't match expected type `Data.Complex.Complex GHC.Types.Float'
14:53:37 <Roujo> It's supposed to be -1, really
14:53:41 <Roujo> ~eval exp(pi * (sqrt(-1) :: Complex Float)) + 1
14:53:56 <Roujo> So it's just floating dust, really
14:57:23 <fizzie> ~eval exp(pi * (sqrt(-1) :: Complex Double)) + 1
14:58:44 <Bike> ~eval exp (pi * (sqrt(-1) :: Complex CReal))
14:58:45 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: type constructor or class `CReal'
14:58:45 <metasepia> Perhaps you meant `Real' (imported from Prelude)
14:58:54 <Bike> > exp (pi * (sqrt(-1) :: Complex CReal))
14:59:24 <Roujo> ~eval (exp(pi * (sqrt(-1) :: Complex Float)) + 1) - (exp(pi * (sqrt(-1) :: Complex Float)) + 1)
14:59:55 <Roujo> Either it collapses the equation to x - x = 0, or the floating point errors are consistent ^^
15:00:02 <boily> how come I don't have Creal. that shouldn't be so.
15:00:17 <Roujo> You shouldn't not have it?
15:00:35 <Bike> floats are deterministic, eys
15:01:44 -!- lsiwe has joined.
15:01:51 <lsiwe> "If the function takes arguments, declare them; if it takes no arguments, use void." - K&R2 I see code like this too, why is this? Is it explained later in K&R2, or is that all that it's going to say? (Talking about use of void when no args).
15:02:16 <metasepia> Eys is a village in the municipality of Gulpen-Wittem, Limburg, the Netherlands.
15:02:29 <Bike> i think "foo ()" just means it's a function without saying anything about the args, or something
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15:03:39 <Roujo> Something like that, yeah. If you follow that standard, then you can talk about doStuff() without having to specify that it's actually doStuff(Stuff *s1, Stuff *s2)
15:03:57 <Roujo> And without implying that doStuff() takes to arguments
15:04:10 <Roujo> Which is useful when documenting
15:04:13 <lsiwe> Roujo: Was that directed towards me?
15:06:05 <Roujo> When I do documentation, I tend to have sentences like "This method relies on the argument's doStuff() method, which it uses to determine so-and-so."
15:07:10 <HackEgo> lsiwe: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:07:11 <Roujo> Now, if doStuff() is actually doStuff(arg1, arg2, arg3, arg4, arg5), I don't want to write that out every time, so I use doStuff(). Someone who doesn't know the function, though, might think this means doStuff() doesn't take any arguments.
15:07:15 <lsiwe> Roujo: How come people use it for main(), for example? Just standards?
15:07:33 <Roujo> Using the doStuff(void) when it does not take arguments makes it explicit
15:08:01 <Roujo> I don't know, I always use main with args =P
15:08:10 <Roujo> Even if I don't use them afterwards
15:09:46 <lsiwe> Roujo: Ah, I see people do it for non-documentation reasons, as well.
15:10:06 <lsiwe> int main(void) { /* … */ } for example
15:10:15 <Roujo> Might be. I mostly do Java anyway, and I don't think doStuff(void) is valid there =P
15:11:32 <lsiwe> Roujo: http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100425213029AA7n6Bv
15:11:37 <lsiwe> Seems to be only useful for documentation.
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15:15:52 <Koen_> I usually compile with gcc flags that make it impossible not to use a function's argument
15:16:38 <Koen_> so if I don't need main's arguments, I use main(void)
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15:43:39 <Roujo> Koen_: Nice. What flags make that happen?
15:44:26 <Koen_> Roujo: well my school's correction program usually compiles with -Wall -Wextra -Werror so so do I
15:45:03 <Koen_> one of the three means "consider warnings as errors", another is "have some extra severe warnings that you usually don't have", and I don't know what is the third but something alkie
15:46:38 <metasepia> alkie definition: slang alcoholic.
15:52:20 <boily> ~duck consider phlebas
15:52:20 <metasepia> Consider Phlebas, first published in 1987, is a space opera novel by Scottish writer Iain M. Banks.
15:53:28 <Roujo> That's an odd title
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16:00:48 <Koen_> Roujo: yeah so -Wall adds A LOT of warnings, included about stuff that is legal but dubious, like "you used = instead of == in a condition, please add parentheses or something to insist on the fact that = is assignment"; -Wextra also adds extra warnings, but I think they're more about stuff where the code isn't logic, like if you're testing if an unsigned value is positive, or discarding the result of an expression that doesn't have any
16:00:48 <Koen_> effects; and finally -Werror turns all warnings into errors so the compilation will fail at the slightest warning
16:01:28 <Koen_> however gcc's man doesn't clear state whether the warning about unused arguments is caused by -Wall or -Wextra; in fact it seems to imply it's caused by having both flags
16:01:39 <Koen_> so I will test with only one of the two flags now
16:04:01 <elliott> I think -Wextra implies -Wall...
16:04:38 <elliott> Roujo: the title is a T. S. Eliot quote (I've never read the book but intend to at some point)
16:04:48 <elliott> for that matter, I don't think I've ever read the poem it's a quote from in full.
16:05:11 <Bike> things fall apart?
16:06:09 <Bike> i'm asking what you're talking about since i missed it.
16:06:41 <Bike> wait, that was yeats
16:06:44 <elliott> the title of the book Consider Phlebas by Iain M. Banks
16:06:46 -!- sdf9 has joined.
16:07:05 <Bike> things fall apart is named after a line from a poem that i thought was eliot for some reason. oopsie!
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16:11:09 <Koen_> elliott: the man doesn"t say anything about -Wall to be include by -Wextra
16:12:26 <elliott> Bike: right I was, I kinda assumed that was what was happening but I was worried that maybe I was the uncultured one so I didn't say anything specific
16:12:45 <elliott> also I didn't actually know that it wasn't an Eliot quote, I had to google to check
16:12:52 <elliott> I'm literally an incomplete person without wikipedia
16:20:11 <Gregor> Koen_: Cool cats compile with -Wall -Wextra -Werror -ansi -pedantic
16:21:02 <Koen_> never heard of them
16:22:02 <Koen_> is that a british school?
16:25:45 <Gregor> Cool Cats Polytechnic.
16:26:27 <Gregor> elliott is a student there.
16:34:06 <fizzie> ~duck look to windward
16:34:06 <metasepia> Look to Windward is a science fiction novel by Scottish writer Iain M. Banks, first published in 2000.
16:34:32 <fizzie> (Sorta-sequel, same poem.)
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16:54:07 <Koen_> elliott: so what can you say about cool cats?
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17:10:09 <boily> back from a mexican lunch, elliott is related to everything, and who is sdf9? didn't we see a (~menot@...) yesterday?
17:10:26 <elliott> sdf9 is someone about to get a +b for join/quit spamming
17:10:31 <elliott> and yes they've used about five nicks or something so far :P
17:11:11 <boily> oh. should I expect ion being licked, or are they another person?
17:11:50 <elliott> they're in, um, indonesia, looks like
17:12:57 <Roujo> So you backtraced him?
17:13:54 <boily> the IIITTTSSS strikes again...
17:14:17 <boily> (Indonesian Intimate Ion Terrible Tongue Therapy Subliminal Slimy Squad)
17:15:02 <sdf9> sorry, I do not know why it is happening. :p
17:15:30 <elliott> oh, was the ion-licker indonesian?
17:15:43 <elliott> sdf9: that's okay, we only do the death penalty here if your connection breaks 10 times
17:16:22 <Roujo> elliott: So you're saying that Bike is undead by now?
17:17:39 <boily> I'm sure Bike is allergic to canadian brains, right?
17:18:06 * boily winks to Roujo, and whisper “Play along! We need to stay grouped against the hordes!”
17:19:17 <Roujo> Pretty sure e is *wink wink nudge nudge*
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17:21:42 * boily wields a 150m zombie-proof certified shovel of +3 organic holy aura (locally produced, for greenhouse gas reduction!)
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17:28:19 <boily> that doesn't bode well for them...
17:28:56 <Roujo> The Clock is Ticking
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17:35:41 <boily> sdf9 is taking the lead over Bike wrt. post-redeundead zombiness.
17:36:41 * Roujo puts on his broadcaster headset.
17:36:56 <Roujo> It's a neck to neck race, boily. Bike will have to work double-time to get back in the lead.
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17:40:19 <boily> uh oh! the gap is widening with this surprise move from sdf9! with only a few laps remaining, we can say that Bike has no chance left! back to you, Roujo.
17:41:44 <Roujo> Thank you, boily. I'm on the edge of my seat right now, since there's no telling when the officials will call for a penatly. elliott has an history of... interesting calls in his line of duty, so predicting the outcome is a daunting task.
17:42:33 -!- sdf9 has joined.
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17:43:37 <boily> It ain't over 'till it's over! both contestants are showing their work, althought sdf9's technique is really shining now! Bike doesn't admit defeat easily, and who knows? elliott's sudden decisions can still bring a lot of surprises!
17:44:09 <boily> but, what is that? an unknown contestant? can you tell us more about sebbu? over to you, Roujo.
17:45:34 <Roujo> Ah, yes, sebbu. 6'7", strong as steel. Tough contestant, although he'll have to show more than that token effort to take the crown.
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17:47:13 <boily> incredible! a fourth contender! I wouldn't like to get ahead of myself there, but I think this is the Match of the Century!
17:47:44 <Roujo> Even better than '84's Contest of Champions, boily&
17:50:55 -!- ^v has joined.
17:52:24 <boily> '84 was an incredible year, but I'm astonished by sdf9's performance here. but let's first ask ^v, our foreign liaison, how he feels about that race?
17:53:03 <^v> i was not alive in 1984
17:54:00 <^v> and i dont participate in history class
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17:54:26 <boily> laconic, but to the point. Roujo, the excitement is palpable here. just imagine the flood of emotions that are washing over those who can be close to the contestants and see them with their own eyes.
17:54:41 <Roujo> Ah, darn shame. Although come to think of it, I wasn't around in '84 either. Oooooh, and he's back!
17:55:12 <^v> you would have to be like 50 c_c
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17:55:31 <Roujo> I didn't think I could get any closer to the edge of my seat, but it seems the sdf9 decided that the Planck Lenght just wasn't short enough! So much excitement!
17:55:32 <boily> but under a different name! wasn't that move ruled unorthodox under last year's International Comittee General Assembly? because if so, that'd be very sad. the elegance...
17:56:16 <^v> my mom was alive in 1984
17:56:31 <^v> boily: who are you and why arent you on topic c_c
17:56:45 <Roujo> It's indeed unorthodox, boily, but very much legal. The worst that could happen is that it's judged unsportsmanly, but the officials seem to be turning a blind eye to such shows of agility and prouesse these days.
17:57:24 <^v> what are you talking about
17:57:56 <^v> none of that made any sense, stop ^%$#ing english D: its bad enough
17:58:24 <Roujo> sdf9's race with Bike to the top of the d/c scoreboard, of course. Such an event, too, very exciting.
17:59:51 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Roujo.
17:59:53 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v boily.
18:00:39 <boily> it seems we're having some communication problems with our external correspondant. we'll have to temporarily suspend the feed over to ^v...
18:00:57 <^v> you are raping english
18:01:09 <mnoqy> that word is ban here
18:01:36 <Roujo> Ahhh, I can talk better now. Broadcasting to the masses! The race seems to have come to a lull at the moment, with all contestants taking a temporary break. We'll be back after these commercials.
18:02:01 <^v> people who exesively use unnecicary adjectives on EVERYTHING makes me really mad
18:02:08 <kmc> q: what the fuck is going on
18:02:54 <boily> Roujo: si la tendance se maintient, elliott won't be doing nothing soon. do you think he's acting on purpose in order to artificially increase the suspense?
18:03:28 <Roujo> boily: Probably. I don't believe in spontaneous voices, so they must have come from somewhere.
18:03:40 <Roujo> Oh, question from the audience. We go to boily for the answer!
18:05:27 <boily> dear kmc, we don't know either. you'll have to wait for the next round! and for your support, you win a Commemorative Great Redisunconnection Race keychain, 2013 Edition!
18:06:48 <Roujo> Very nice prize, valued at 50 BTC and brought to you by the #esoteric bots. Thank you, bots.
18:10:46 <Roujo> I think that typo will cost ^v some points from the judges... What do you think, boily?
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18:11:04 <nooodl> `thanks #esoteric bots
18:11:05 <HackEgo> Thanks, #esoteric bots. Thesoteric bots.
18:11:17 <nooodl> wow that's actually good i guess. i expected it to break
18:11:37 <boily> is that a... 7... a 6... and what? a three from the third panelist! nooodl, why so harsh a judgment?
18:11:38 <^v> i dont think its a bot
18:11:56 <Roujo> `run echo I beg to differ
18:12:27 <boily> ~echo I concur. HackEgo is a bot.
18:12:54 <nooodl> going to have to give a 10 on the "turing test" category here though. (3 + 10)/2 still a nice score
18:13:36 <Roujo> Questionable reasoning, but solid answer. We now go to our resident race analyst, fungot. Fungot?
18:13:36 <fungot> Roujo: and is one thing which you might want more? and some stuff in my youth. ( under establishment)? i maintain my curiousity. i really enjoyed such powers... now it's nick!userhost-limited to me, and ile not wish thee more
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18:13:58 <^v> what the hell
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18:14:01 <Roujo> Wiser words, boily. Wiser. Words.
18:14:21 <^v> are getting
18:14:22 <Roujo> Oooh, and Bike's back in the race! Nice timeout there, a little high, could be rounder, but still fantastic.
18:14:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:14:24 <^v> out of hand
18:15:47 <boily> simply in-cre-di-ble, I say. I knew that Bike wouldn't admit such a position. nice move there. I applaud his ingenuity. the execution wasn't perfect, as you kindly remarked, but considering what level of exhaustion he must be in, it is still quite impressive.
18:15:57 -!- Bike has joined.
18:16:15 <mnoqy> (it's a pun on welcome back)
18:16:21 <Bike> elliott: never fear! if someone in a conversation is acting like an idiot but it's not me you can assume it's me. it's one of many services i offer.
18:17:21 <Bike> "but it's not obvious who"*, not "it's not me", because it is me
18:18:58 <boily> Roujo: elliott is finally active! what will be his next move?
18:19:06 <Roujo> Now, viewers, please direct any criticism on this race's reporting by using the `complaint command. Our house elves will examine and reply shortly.
18:19:19 <Roujo> Wait, what was `complaints. Feel free to report that as well.
18:19:56 <Roujo> boily: I have no idea, but I can't wait. The competitors have been fiercly arguing about the legality of sbf9's nick change, and I'm hoping the issue will be resolved shortly.
18:21:05 <Roujo> Wait, it's actually sdf9, not sbf9. I smell a penalty.
18:21:53 <boily> ah, so many opportunities lost! what are the umpires doing?... wait!... is that?... yes, we got our feed back to ^v!
18:22:17 <boily> ^v: do you feel rules should be more strictly enforced?
18:23:05 <^v> stop pinging me or im going to leave
18:23:29 -!- ^v has changed nick to StopPingingMeRou.
18:23:46 -!- StopPingingMeRou has changed nick to StopItBoilyRoujo.
18:24:39 <Roujo> We mean no harm. We live to report, that is all. No pings for you, then.
18:24:42 -!- billion57 has joined.
18:24:49 <Roujo> `complaint Pings seem to be too frequent
18:24:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: complaint: not found
18:24:55 <Roujo> `complaints Pings seem to be too frequent
18:24:57 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:25:58 <Roujo> `run mv bin/complaints bin/complain
18:26:01 <boily> `relcome billion57
18:26:04 <HackEgo> billion57: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:38:14 <Roujo> And another point for sdf93! The count just keeps on couning, doesn't e.
18:40:07 <olsner> perhaps I should build an out-of-order cpu one day
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18:43:14 <Roujo> STOP_KICKING_ME: Nobody's kicking you. You're doing this to yourself.
18:43:37 <Roujo> Think about it. Look inside yourself. You will see: I speak only truth.
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18:50:11 <Roujo> IT_IS_NOT_ME_IT_: Sure it's you. You keep closing the connection.
18:50:15 <Roujo> >STOP_KICKING_ME [~menot@118.99.127.142] has quit IRC: Remote host closed the connection
18:50:35 <Roujo> Good People Don't Close Connections Like That Mmmmkay?
18:50:40 <Roujo> kmc: What's what for?
18:50:45 <kmc> what is going on
18:51:06 <HackEgo> olist (917): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
18:51:40 <Roujo> kmc: IT_IS_NOT_ME_IT_ keeps d/c'ing, but says we're kicking him.
18:51:53 <Roujo> Nevermind the fact that nobody is op here.
18:52:04 <kmc> im op here
18:52:08 <elliott> IT_IS_NOT_ME_IT_: would it help if I kicked you??
18:52:10 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
18:52:11 <Roujo> Well, not right now =P
18:53:18 <elliott> I think I may be addicted to petty abuse of power ;_;
18:54:12 <shachaf> elliott: i could've told you that
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19:58:42 <boily> abuse of power is good. especially with chocolate milk.
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20:21:32 <boily> fizzie: how's the tvtroping?
20:21:47 <boily> (do we have dates associated with `quotes? that one seems very old)
20:24:38 <olsner> hg blame on the quotes file?
20:27:26 <kmc> god damn it, I upgraded my graphics drivers and now I can't use valgrind on this program I need to debug :(
20:28:14 <boily> olsner: oh. right.
20:30:30 <HackEgo> 687) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
20:33:21 <olsner> surely tvtropes is a bit longer than that?
20:33:47 <fizzie> (See the referred-to quote.)
20:33:57 <HackEgo> 234) <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
20:34:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17188
20:35:27 <fizzie> I probably haven't updated that file for a year, though.
20:37:41 <kmc> isn't software engineering such a wonderful profession
20:38:55 <Bike> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-gchq-encryption-codes-security "SSL is dead"
20:43:45 <boily> fizzie: your quotes are included in the PDF!
20:48:51 <fizzie> boily: I'm confused. Wasn't the PDF about wise things?
20:50:17 <boily> well, you know, like, feature creep and all that. besides, reformatting quotes is fun!
20:50:21 <boily> (no, I am not insane.)
20:51:06 <boily> btw, is glumgot a bot?
20:51:38 <olsner> I think so but I have no idea what it does
20:52:45 <boily> I like Philip Glass. one two three four five six ♪ faaaa faaaa faaaa faaa ♪
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20:59:29 * oerjan swats everyone (including ais523 in absentia) for not telling his /// quine had been reddited.
21:00:03 <fizzie> boily: Huh, there's surprisingly many of them.
21:01:13 <boily> fizzie: I still have to reformat the behemoths of augur and Bike's quotes, but yours was still substantial enough.
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21:01:28 <boily> oerjan: ais523 has a reddited quine? where? where?
21:01:33 * boily needs his reddit fix!
21:01:58 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1ljhm9/this_is_one_pleasantlooking_and_completely_insane/
21:04:01 <oerjan> ...i guess not to be hypocritical, i should mention this is currently top of proggit http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1ls0bc/brainfuck_interpreter_in_brainfuck/
21:06:07 <nooodl> oerjan: how did you even make that quine help
21:06:51 <oerjan> i modified the coding method from the BCT interpreter
21:06:56 <boily> github has bf syntax hiliting. I am scared.
21:07:47 <oerjan> which itself was modified from the slightly more readable loops in the exampes above.
21:08:58 <olsner> sometimes I feel like the rest of the world is doing more esolang work than #esoteric
21:09:17 <boily> hey, we do have a wiki about esolangs. I honestly forgot about it... >_>'...
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21:16:31 <oerjan> nooodl: ///\\ is a quoting prefix, if you remove that you will find a copy of the surrounding program inside. the rest then makes two copies of that (one inside the other), and modifies the quoting prefix appropriately in each copy.
21:17:49 <oerjan> pretty standard quine on a higher level.
21:20:06 <kmc> Bike: oh it's because the new graphics driver is using a different malloc
21:20:20 <oerjan> i think we had a discussion here once where i helped someone make a similar quine without the /\ only obfuscation.
21:23:12 <oerjan> other things starting with ///, like ///\/\/\ at the end, may be considered tokens/labels.
21:23:40 <oerjan> (that one is the label for where the final output form ends up, btw.)
21:30:47 <HackEgo> 803) <Gregor> !rot13 Fluttershy Rainbow Dash Rarity Applejack Twilight Sparkle Pinkie Pie <EgoBot> Syhggreful Envaobj Qnfu Enevgl Nccyrwnpx Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr Cvaxvr Cvr <olsner> oh, they're all named after rot13'd welsh words
21:33:53 <boily> oddly, LaTeX hyphenated Nccyr-wnpx.
21:34:38 <oerjan> nooodl: btw that unreadable label choice started from thinking about how to program using /\ only, and noticing that ///// would never show up naturally in a program, then whittling it down by restricting the coding style somewhat. (the BCT interpreter manages with just two slashes, but the quine needed three unless i added cruft that would have made it longer in total anyway.)
21:34:44 <boily> and now, with Gregor's quotes up to date, time to go enbooze myself.
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21:45:22 <oerjan> nooodl: also btw i used haskell programs to put this mess together :)
21:45:56 <oerjan> the /\ only style was a bit much to keep track of with vim :)
21:45:57 <nooodl> i gotta go right now but i'll dissect the whole thing a bit later, maybe
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21:55:59 <oerjan> > sqrt(-1) :: Complex CReal
21:57:03 <oerjan> > exp (pi * (0 :+ 1)) :: Complex CReal
21:58:55 <oerjan> oh duh you already did it
22:07:46 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/el?iot?: No such file or directory
22:07:55 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/el*iot*: No such file or directory
22:08:03 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/el*iot*
22:08:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/elliot \ wisdom/elliott
22:08:12 <HackEgo> No one was ever called Elliot.
22:12:54 <kmc> gaaaaaaaah and now it segfaults half the time, but never in Valgrind
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22:18:19 <elliott> kmc: fix the bug by making the program exec itself under valgrind
22:19:54 <Roujo> elliott: That's... a terrible idea
22:19:59 <Roujo> And yet so tempting
22:20:18 <Roujo> You missed my reign
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22:25:02 <tswett> Hey, do we know someone named Wei Dai? thx
22:25:18 <Koen_> Wei Dai: not in scope
22:25:41 <tswett> @tell boily Not sure what you're referring to.
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22:30:50 <kmc> `which c++filt
22:31:00 <kmc> `echo _ZNK13GrGLInterface5GLPtrIPFviPKjEEcvS4_Ev@plt | c++filt
22:31:01 <HackEgo> _ZNK13GrGLInterface5GLPtrIPFviPKjEEcvS4_Ev@plt | c++filt
22:31:06 <kmc> `run echo _ZNK13GrGLInterface5GLPtrIPFviPKjEEcvS4_Ev@plt | c++filt
22:31:07 <HackEgo> GrGLInterface::GLPtr<void (*)(int, unsigned int const*)>::operator void (*)(int, unsigned int const*)() const@plt
22:31:58 <kmc> isn't that a wonderful name for a function
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22:49:10 <kmc> status: writing debug helpers in C, injecting them with LD_PRELOAD, and calling them from gdb
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22:49:48 <Bike> "can't you at least write them in Rust"
22:49:58 <kmc> yes but then I would have two problems
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22:54:35 <Bike> write debug helper in rust, inject them into rustc with ld_preload, call them from... uh... gdrust??
22:56:13 <Bike> gnu derust? yeah, sure.
23:04:27 <kmc> i have a big jar of rust remover at my house
23:04:29 <kmc> i should bring that in one day
23:05:37 <Koen_> so in ocaml, && and || are lazy
23:05:54 <Bike> just thrhow rust remover all over the office
23:05:55 <Koen_> but if you define a function as let f = (||);;
23:05:59 <Bike> THIS IS WHAT I THINK OF YOUR DAMN LANGUAGE
23:06:03 <Koen_> then f is not lazy
23:06:37 <Bike> Koen_: this doesn't seem surprising?
23:06:47 <Koen_> yeah but why is || lazy ?
23:06:52 <Koen_> it's supposed to be a function
23:06:58 <Koen_> functions in ocaml are not lazy
23:07:13 <Bike> also totally unrelatedly
23:07:24 <Bike> i just saw "just-in-time" in the context of pedagogy :|
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23:07:46 <Koen_> I just saw just-in-time in the context of compiling befunge programs
23:07:54 <Koen_> what's just-in-time in the context of pedagogy?
23:08:08 <Bike> "I recommend an alternative, historically inspired ordering of population genetics topics, based on progressively increasing mathematical difficulty. This progression can facilitate just-in-time math instruction."
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00:09:40 <Sgeo> help i seem to be obsessed with tcl again why oh why
00:10:38 <oerjan> just take some heroin to mask it
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00:12:18 <Sgeo> `olist 917 blah blah i'm sure someone olisted first
00:13:16 <Sgeo> I seem to be becoming a zero-width space conservationist, I only used one
00:14:40 <oerjan> @ask Phantom_Hoover wtf happens here http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/130904.html
00:19:11 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
00:19:21 <oerjan> it says _true_ Scotsman, Phantom_Hoover
00:19:37 <kmc> so glad that the nvidia binary OpenGL drivers for Linux make heavy use of self modifying code
00:21:19 <Fiora> what do they use it for?
00:21:20 <kmc> @tell Koen_ I think && and || are just special cased in the language, as in most languages
00:21:25 <kmc> Fiora: I don't even know...
00:21:56 <oerjan> the tales of flaco just keep getting taller.
00:22:17 <kmc> (||);; looks like an emoticon
00:23:02 <Fiora> um, if I might ask where did this come up o_O
00:23:21 <kmc> the self modifying code?
00:23:34 <kmc> trying to figure out why my program is crashing in the opengl library
00:23:56 <kmc> (the answer turns out to be, calling OpenGL functions from a thread other than the one which set up OpenGL, which is a pretty normal answer really)
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00:23:57 <Fiora> couldn't it just be like, a JIT of some sort, like a shader compiler?
00:24:01 <kmc> (but the getting there is pretty weird)
00:24:51 <Sgeo> `pbflist because Phantom_Hoover said to
00:25:00 <Sgeo> And not because of actual pbf
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00:26:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: someone should remove Sgeo's zero-width spaces before he hurts someone
00:27:07 <Sgeo> `pbflist for accuracy
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00:52:24 <oerjan> would you like to be separated from him *whistles innocently*
00:54:21 <oerjan> elliott: why you're right, it _is_ addictive!
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01:39:36 <oerjan> ooh, Nthern is back on the wiki.
01:39:53 <oerjan> the only other person who managed to write something in ///, as i recall :)
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01:56:12 <madbr> I'm starting to think that out of order execution is just a really elaborate prefetch scheme
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02:33:47 <madbr> like, is there any point to out of order execution, other than dealing with unoptimized code and trying to hide cache misses?
02:36:08 <madbr> (and having too few registers on x86)
02:42:42 <madbr> if you had an optimal architecture and no cache misses, would out-of-order be useless?
02:45:08 <Bike> are those reasonable assumptions, though
02:46:07 <madbr> well, for optimal architecture IMHO even the stupid traditional 32 register MIPS would fit
02:46:33 <madbr> like, it probably can't do 10 instructions per cycle, but no architecture can do that
02:47:57 <Bike> i mean, no cache misses/"unoptimized code"
02:48:26 <madbr> no cache misses obviously isn't very "real world" :3
02:49:00 <madbr> unoptimized code I'm not too sure about
02:49:03 <Bike> and i mean isn't there a longstanding debate or whatever about whether compilers should be expected to make good code versus the processor working things out
02:49:37 <madbr> I expect most compilers nowaday turn everything into SSA form
02:50:04 <madbr> and can do at least a minimum amount of reordering
02:50:47 <madbr> and by "most compliers" I really mean msvc, llvm and gcc
02:51:46 <madbr> I don't expect compilers to be able to do enough reordering to keep a 10-issue cpu busy
02:51:55 <madbr> but a 2 or 3 issue cpu sounds reasonable
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02:55:29 <madbr> like, multiplications are high latency so they require a lot of shuffling, but usually they happen in stuff like dsp and gfx code that's usually math heavy anyways
02:57:46 <madbr> load/store/jump code is mostly low latency ops, though it has less math ops that you can shuffle around... then again if it has unavoidable dependency chains, it's going to have unavoidable dependency chains on a pentium 2 too
02:58:35 <madbr> stuff like file compression and string parsing
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03:51:47 <Sgeo> TCL sometimes reminds me of functional reactive programming in... some ways
03:52:02 <Sgeo> Or, at least, has a nice ability to set something like that up
03:55:05 <Sgeo> Ooh, I should implement Deadfish in Tcl
03:55:14 <Sgeo> I have an utterly crazy idea of how to implement it
04:03:48 <Sgeo> Well, ok, not C++ templates crazy
04:08:10 <Sgeo> Deadfish... is not very well specified, is it. The page implies that something is a vagriety of the C implementation, then says to check against its math results to see that that thing is there
04:15:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: the joke is that we follow the C implementation faithfully especially in those aspects which show its author was not very good at programming.
04:16:11 <Sgeo> Maybe I should look at the C impl. then
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04:19:41 <oerjan> also, i consider the python one within acceptable variation, it was written by the same author.
04:23:38 <Sgeo> I feel like my code in generally isn't generally much cleaner
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04:24:39 <Bike> i'm impressed at the apl implementation, but i feel it could probably be optimized
04:24:51 <Sgeo> Um. Except I'd try to avoid recursive loops in non-TCOed languages
04:26:27 <Sgeo> err, that -1 check is useless, isn't it.
04:26:43 <Bike> "unsigned int x; /* make a positive integer and call it x */" man, this is some good stuff.
04:26:52 <Bike> maybe you're useless, sgeo
04:27:11 <shachaf> why are you doing the thing where you insult people
04:27:25 <Sgeo> It's an unsigned int, does C convert the -1 to MAXINT or whatever -1 underflows into?
04:27:30 <Bike> congenital condition.
04:27:48 <Bike> congenial condition also
04:28:07 <Bike> wow good scanf.
04:28:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: well decrementing 0 gives 0, is what we've used. i assume we tried it out by running the C implementation at some point.
04:29:18 <Sgeo> erk http://ideone.com/uQDIhD
04:29:49 <oerjan> the exact bitsize isn't among the things we keep slavishly to. (some of my esolang implementations use unary.)
04:30:49 <Sgeo> Why doesn't it die? Does scanf not stop and wait for input?
04:31:11 <Sgeo> Or, maybe IdeOne is just broken
04:33:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: don't you give all input up front in IdeOne?
04:33:27 <oerjan> in any case, yes the interpreter has no eof checking.
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04:33:54 <oerjan> oh wait, it shouldn't print the 0 ...
04:34:22 <Sgeo> All I wanted to do was compile i d s and o into ;i; ;d; ;s; ;o; and eval it
04:34:45 <oerjan> well, my screen is full of > stuff which does not look promising.
04:35:21 <Sgeo> oerjan: on IdeOne? Or actually compiling locally?
04:37:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: locally on nvg it keeps prompting after any number of ^D (for eof)
04:38:11 <Sgeo> Nordic Veteran Gamers
04:38:13 <oerjan> the linux server i'm running irssi from, and email
04:38:41 <oerjan> the old university computer club.
04:39:22 <oerjan> also my webpage is there. and i already had deadfish downloaded.
04:47:38 <oerjan> oh darn it wasn't the correct version, it has a much weirder scanf, no wonder it behaved weirdly.
04:48:45 <oerjan> my downloaded version has scanf("%c%*[^\n]%*1[\n]",&usrinput);
04:50:23 <oerjan> probably some attempt at reading only one command per line, i guess. (and it doesn't work :P)
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05:35:54 <Sgeo> Is there a name for those monads which are implementable even if bind can call its continuation at most 1 time?
05:36:03 <Sgeo> For any particular continuation it's given
05:36:16 <Sgeo> e.g. Maybe, Identity, and not List
05:46:07 <Sgeo> I hate Reddit sometimes http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1ltegu/97_polled_online_want_under_god_removed_from/
05:48:17 <olsner> I think the fashionable thing is to hate reddit all the time
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06:37:22 <shachaf> ion: You know the whole (s,) -| (s ->) adjunction business and the way you get State from that?
06:38:01 <ion> shachaf: No. I’m not familiar with the -| symbol either, or with the word adjunction for that matter. :-P
06:38:21 <ion> (in this context)
06:39:00 <shachaf> Well, in Haskell in particular, an adjunction is a relationship between two functors F and G, written F -| G, such that (F a -> b) ~~ (a -> G b)
06:39:59 <Sgeo> Are there any non-boring monads that meet the criterion I mentioned?
06:40:19 <Sgeo> Of bind only being able to use the callback it's given at most once?
06:41:00 <shachaf> ion: It has lots of good properties, including that G . F is a monad and F . G is a comonad.
06:43:49 <ion> shachaf: I see.
06:44:33 <shachaf> ion: It comes with two operations, eta :: a -> G (F a) and eps :: F (G a) -> a
06:44:35 <ion> Can you give an example of an adjunction other than (s,) -| (s ->)?
06:44:52 <shachaf> With the laws fmap eps . eta = id, and eps . fmap eta = id
06:45:19 <shachaf> ion: Unfortunately it's hard in Haskell. :-(
06:45:39 <shachaf> Most interesting adjunctions involve functors that aren't endofunctors.
06:46:17 <ion> Could you give an example of one of those?
06:47:13 <shachaf> Well, do you know abou the category Mon of monoids/monoid homomorphisms?
06:48:23 <shachaf> (Do you know about categories and functors in general?)
06:49:15 <ion> Nope. I have Awodey’s book in my reading queue.
06:49:27 <ion> and Spivak’s
06:50:03 <shachaf> Oh, _Category Theory for Scientists_?
06:51:07 <shachaf> Hm. I don't know much about it.
06:51:23 <shachaf> Anyway, categories are so easy.
06:52:21 <ion> I’m sure i’ll love them.
06:53:02 <shachaf> Well, you know Category in Haskell, right? It's just that.
06:54:55 <shachaf> And do you know what a functor is between categories?
06:57:27 <ion> No. It’s not immediately obvious to me how to make that happen with the functor familiar to me (which is, i guess, really an endofunctor).
06:58:31 <shachaf> OK, so a category is a thing with a bunch of arrows, which can be composed.
06:59:07 <shachaf> To figure out which arrows can be composed, you have the objects. You can only compose two arrows if their objects match.
06:59:29 <shachaf> (So each arrow has a "type".)
06:59:42 <shachaf> And there are also identity arrows, one for each object.
07:00:40 <shachaf> A functor F from C to D maps each arrow "a" in C to an arrow "F a" in D, such that F id = id, and F f . F g = F (f . g)
07:00:46 <shachaf> Normally we write F as fmap in Haskell.
07:01:45 <shachaf> It also maps objects, but once you've specified how you're mapping the arrows, you can figure out the object mapping from that.
07:02:01 <shachaf> Hmm, I'm being confusing, maybe because it's midnight?
07:02:20 <shachaf> Do you see how this corresponds to the regular Haskell Functor?
07:02:44 <ion> Does the “endo” mean that C = D?
07:03:20 <shachaf> It maps Haskell arrows to Haskell arrows -- e.g. ord :: Char -> Int to fmap ord :: F Char -> F Int -- with the laws I mentioned above.
07:03:42 <ion> I guess i see it. What’s an example of C,D where C ≠ D?
07:03:44 <shachaf> It also maps objects to objects, e.g. the type Char to the type F Char.
07:03:59 <shachaf> Maybe we should've had a bunch more examples of categories first.
07:05:23 <shachaf> Maybe I'm spamming the channel...
07:05:51 <ion> It doesn’t seem like there’s other discussion going on at the moment.
07:06:06 <shachaf> Maybe that's because of me!
07:06:18 <shachaf> OK, so let's go back to categories and give some examples.
07:06:43 <shachaf> And maybe a proper definition? Did we ever have one?
07:08:17 <ion> I don’t think so, apart from “like Data.Category.Category”
07:08:50 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I meant Control.Category, although data-category's definition is generally much better.
07:09:49 <shachaf> OK, let's start with something else. You know what a monoid is, right? A collection of things, which can be "multiplied" with each other, such that multiplication is associative and has an identity?
07:10:16 <ion> Sorry, i meant Control.Category.Category
07:10:55 <shachaf> E.g. ℕ with + and 0, ℕ with * and 1, String with (++) and "", and so on.
07:11:05 <shachaf> OK, so you know how matrices work, too, right?
07:11:31 <shachaf> (Or maybe not. I certainly don't.)
07:12:14 <ion> More or less. I always have to look up things like how to calculate a determinant etc.
07:12:27 <shachaf> thanks for the reminder, HackEgo
07:12:31 <shachaf> But e.g. matrix multiplication?
07:13:00 <shachaf> Matrices and matrix multiplication are funny because they're almost like a monoid but not quite.
07:13:17 <shachaf> Because you can't multiply any two matrices, you can only do it if they match.
07:13:53 <shachaf> So you have (*) :: M i j -> M j k -> M i k, and you have id :: M i i for any i.
07:14:21 <fizzie> shachaf: I see you haven't been keeping up with the news: https://collectivelyunconscious.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/matrix-dimensions-reach-agreement-at-peace-summit/
07:14:51 <shachaf> So that's how categories work in general. You have a multiplication operation but it only works for things that match.
07:15:11 <ion> Ok, matrices are a nice example.
07:15:35 <shachaf> So, for a category C, you have, uh...
07:16:53 <shachaf> A collection of arrows, where each arrow is has a domain and codomain (source and taget) object, written as e.g. f : A -> B
07:17:50 <shachaf> A composition operation, (.), which can compose two matching arrows. I.e. for any two arrows f : A -> B, g : B -> C, you can write g . f : A -> C
07:18:48 <shachaf> For every object A, you have an identity arrow, id : A -> A, such that f . id = f, id . f = f
07:19:00 <shachaf> (Sometimes you specify which object you're talking about by writing e.g. id_A)
07:19:12 <shachaf> And composition is associative, so (f . g) . h = f . (g . h)
07:28:53 <ion> shachaf: I was thinking about whether matrix transposition would be a valid functor from M i j to M j i, but that would violate the F f . F g = F (f . g) rule. (The rule for this would be F f . F g = F (g . f), i think.)
07:29:10 <ion> shachaf: Yeah, makes sense.
07:30:29 <shachaf> OK, that kind of functor exists too, and it even turns out to be the same kind of functor.
07:31:06 <shachaf> Anyway, we should have some examples.
07:31:50 <shachaf> So there's the matrix example.
07:32:03 <shachaf> Also, a monoid is the same thing as a category with one object. Do you see why?
07:33:57 <ion> The single object is the type of the monoid?
07:34:35 <ion> (*) :: a -> a -> a always
07:34:55 <shachaf> Well, not "the type of the monoid"
07:35:02 <shachaf> The object can be anything.
07:35:40 <shachaf> Each arrow corresponds to an element of the monoid. The object is just there so the arrows can have a domain/codomain.
07:35:44 <ion> Yeah… Still stuck in the familiar thinking. :-)
07:36:26 <shachaf> Another popular simple example is a partially-ordered set. You know those?
07:41:27 <ion> Reading the Wikipedia page… Something with (≤) :: a -> a -> Maybe Bool?
07:41:54 <shachaf> Well, a relation, but you can think of it that way.
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07:42:37 <shachaf> A poset is a set along with a relation ≤, with the three properties listed in that page you're probably reading right now.
07:47:22 <ion> Ok, i guess i get it. The set of subsets ordered by inclusion is a good example.
07:48:56 <ion> Natural numbers ordered by divisibility, too.
07:49:26 <shachaf> So you can look at any poset as a category, where the objects are the elements of the set, and you have an arrow from A to B iff A ≤ B
07:49:39 <shachaf> Otherwise you have no arrows.
07:49:50 <shachaf> Note that you have at most one arrow between any two objects this way.
07:51:23 <ion> I take it the identity arrow corresponds to reflexivity and composition corresponds to transitivity?
07:52:02 <ion> Ok, i guess i get it.
07:52:37 <shachaf> (There's no category axiom that corresponds to antisymmetry, because it's still a category even without that.)
07:53:04 <shachaf> (I guess you could say that a poset is skeletal or something? Doesn't matter.)
07:53:30 <shachaf> So another category is one where the arrows are functions and the objects are sets.
07:53:34 <shachaf> Or Haskell types, for that matter.
07:54:00 <shachaf> (We usually pretend that Haskell is total when we say that, to make life easy.)
07:55:12 <shachaf> And then you have lots of other categories for lots of other things you might want to talk about.
07:55:34 <shachaf> E.g. you have a category where the objects are monoids and the arrows are monoid homomorphisms.
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07:55:55 <shachaf> (A monoid homomorphism is a function f between monoids where f(1) = 1 and f(a)*f(b) = f(a*b).)
07:55:59 <shachaf> (That might look familiar!)
07:58:32 * ion makes notes
07:59:34 <shachaf> There are also very small categories, like the category 0 with no objects and no arrows, the category 1 with one object and one arrow, and various other ones.
08:01:07 <shachaf> Oh, for any category, there's its "opposite category".
08:01:17 <shachaf> Which is pretty much the same thing except the arrows are backwards.
08:01:55 <shachaf> So in the category Hask^op, an arrow from A to B is a Haskell function from B to A.
08:03:37 <shachaf> Does the definition of functor make sense with all of these?
08:03:53 <shachaf> What would a functor between two posets be?
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08:09:17 <shachaf> (There are also a bunch of boring ways to make categories, like a category where the only arrows that exist are identity arrows, but who cares about those.)
08:10:58 <ion> I just finished writing notes about everything up to now. Good night, and thanks a lot. I’ll think about the question about a functor between two posets.
08:11:44 <shachaf> Oh, if you're here you can probably figure it out.
08:12:19 <shachaf> Just give the definition of a functor, and replace "an arrow from A to B" with "we know that A ≤ B".
08:12:39 <shachaf> (You don't care *which* arrow because there's at most one.)
08:14:49 <ion> I’m a bit too tired to concentrate as well, i’ll watch a TV show episode or two with a friend and get some sleep. I’ll continue from this point at a later time.
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12:01:12 <boily> good diæ̈resis morning! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/IMAG0024.jpg
12:01:28 <boily> (picture taken Wednesday around 6pm UTC-4)
12:02:15 <boily> @tell tswett no idea. what are you referring to?
12:16:11 -!- Taneb has joined.
12:17:46 <FireFly> It's a swedish word that happens to contain all of our letters with diacritics
12:17:58 <FireFly> sometimes used to test for encoding issues
12:21:25 <fizzie> FireFly: Now you've made me hungry.
12:22:01 <fizzie> (I got two wisdom teeth extracted the other day, eating has been a bit tricky lately.)
12:25:41 * boily remembers being on narcotics when he had his teeth disappear into a dentist
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12:31:30 <boily> fizzie: which one did you have removed?
12:33:52 <fizzie> I also had both right ones done before the summer.
12:36:29 <boily> weird pattern, but it sounds more pragmatic than "top two" then "bottom two".
12:36:49 <boily> the top procedure is like just about anything else. a little hurt, but nothing more.
12:36:58 <boily> but the bottom two... ooooooh... *shudders*
12:37:47 <fizzie> The idea was that I'd still have one side of the mouth to chew with.
12:38:09 <fizzie> Except the other side's so swollen I'd just be biting my cheek the whole time. But I guess it'll subside.
12:43:13 <boily> mom's blender was my best friend during those days. liquefied puréed veggies in the morning, at lunch, at night. room temperature.
12:44:52 <fizzie> That might have been a good idea.
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13:25:38 <Roujo> Today is Donut-day
13:26:05 -!- oklopol has joined.
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13:32:40 -!- Bike has joined.
13:32:55 <boily> the nearest Tim is 650 m away. I can donut. all is not lost!
13:35:56 <Roujo> I am the Donut Bringer at my workplace
13:37:09 <boily> spoken as a true Canadian.
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13:59:47 <Roujo> AND HERE WE GO AGAIN
14:00:06 <Roujo> Canada Cup 2013, "I can't maintain a connection to save my life" edition
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14:04:11 <Roujo> That has to be some kind of record
14:04:34 <Roujo> I looked away from the window for *two* minutes
14:04:43 <Roujo> And he came and went during that time
14:04:55 <elliott> technically it was two minutes and two seconds
14:05:13 <Roujo> Well, probably three for me
14:05:14 <boily> I hear some amateur radio enthusiasts can achieve subsecond connections with only 500 mW rigs.
14:07:52 <mnoqy> imagine walking up to your friends or calling on a phone and saying "hello" and they just ignore you and you wait for two whole minutes and they don't even acknowledge your presence
14:09:35 <Roujo> Imagine putting up a note on a billboard at a workplace saying "hello" and people keep working for two whole minutes and they don't even acknowledge your presence =P
14:10:02 <Roujo> If he had pinged me, I'd have answered quickly
14:10:19 <mnoqy> yes the joke is that thinking about irc like that is horribly wrong but solain seems to do it anyway
14:10:28 <Roujo> I keep seeing overlap in channels I'm in on different networks. It's fun.
14:10:34 <boily> analphabillboardetism is a major problem, rampant in developed countries.
14:10:39 <Roujo> mnoqy: Most IRC newbies are like that.
14:11:26 <Roujo> "Hello, I came to the dedicated help channel for a project, and there are like 15 ops in here that can probably help me with my easily googlable problem, can anyone help me?"
14:11:31 <Roujo> *waits 30 seconds*
14:14:04 <boily> or, "hey, I have this problem" *32 seconds* "solved it myself. kthxbye!"
14:16:37 <fizzie> Sometimes there's an insult before the quit.
14:16:50 <fizzie> Like, "well, this was a waste of time *quits*".
14:27:45 <Roujo> Ah, yes. The old ragequit variation: cause rage, then quit
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15:31:20 <boily> I like norwegian music. http://youtu.be/PaEnaoydUUo?list=PLfNe3nGQENtP3VCn1t1pybju9ffSPBohU
15:36:51 <Roujo> And norwegian music love you~~
15:37:38 <itsy> That's the second time someone's mentioned Ylvis today. I hadn't heard of them before...
15:38:32 <boily> norway always happen at least twice.
15:38:50 <Roujo> `quote <boily> norway always happen at least twice.
15:39:00 <Roujo> `quoteadd <boily> norway always happen at least twice.
15:39:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteadd: not found
15:39:14 <Roujo> `complain This is broken, please fix
15:39:15 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
15:39:29 <boily> Roujo: have you tried quoting it off and on again?
15:44:58 <boily> I need a shirt with “once, twice, thrice, fouice...” just to disgust English majors who pass by.
15:45:24 <boily> like, wander around McGill.
15:47:27 <Roujo> If you're not dead by then, you should probably become a survivorman or something
15:52:24 <boily> it's easier to get swallowed by a random pothole than to get beaten to death by a university student here...
15:53:58 <Roujo> Unless you're pro-tuition raise
15:57:10 <boily> either you get 728ed, or smashed by a gratteux de guitare. if I'm about to go out, then I'll do it with style and total grammar disregard.
15:57:54 <boily> (728: matricule of a brutish policewoman who got embroiled in unlawful beatings and stuff.)
15:58:10 <boily> («gratteux de guitare»: one of the many epithets she attributed to the protesting students.)
15:58:44 <boily> (total grammar disregard: me I'm agree with grammar of angliche.)
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16:04:02 <Rafajafar> hi guys, I remember meeting some brilliant folks in here once. Maybe you can help. I have a very specific problem and am looking for a solution that might already exist
16:04:16 <Rafajafar> I'm searching for a solution that can do sliding-window searches on collections of ordered data. Think if you've got fingerprints for each frame of a movie: f(1), f(2)... f(n) and you intercepted a subclip from that movie and have it's finger prints s(1), s(2)...s(n)
16:04:32 <Rafajafar> now I could do this in any language, really, but I need something that will index and do a fuzzy search
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16:04:53 <Rafajafar> ou needed a specific comparison function to compare one fingerprint to another
16:05:17 <Rafajafar> and that function is essentially a euclidean distance function with a tolerance threshold
16:05:42 <Rafajafar> do you guys know of any language that would be primo for that, OR, do you know of an esoteric data storage system for such a sliding-window database
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16:20:36 <ais523> elliott: you forgot to stealth your ops
16:20:50 <ais523> also, I've been creating an esolang :)
16:20:59 <ais523> it's probably my second-best esolang ever, after Underload
16:21:04 <ais523> err, that exists, I mean
16:21:30 <elliott> ais523: I didn't get a reply on my offer to kick someone!
16:21:33 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
16:21:47 <ais523> elliott: it's easy to forget, I've been yelled at in other channels for that :)
16:22:29 <ais523> sadly, I don't have an impl or any programs yet; I was considering holding off on releasing it until I had some
16:23:23 <ais523> "Snowflake is a reversible, self-modifying, data-parallel esoteric programming language created by User:ais523 in 2013."
16:23:27 <ais523> first line of the wiki article I'm writing atm
16:23:41 <ais523> also the "self-modifying" is more literal than normal
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16:23:51 <ais523> executing Snowflake programs actually alters the interpreter
16:24:44 <ais523> (this also makes it impossible to compile; if you had a compiler, you could compile a program, then delete the compiler, then executing the program would leave you with no implementation to modify)
16:25:01 <elliott> I'm glad you're still insane.
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16:26:15 <ais523> at one point during its development, a hello world program would likely need strong AI
16:26:18 <ais523> but I toned it down a bit
16:26:52 <ais523> completely independent of all the self-modification stuff, it also has a fun set of primitives
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16:27:13 <ais523> it's stack-based, but doesn't really have any of the usual primitives
16:27:19 <ais523> it almost has () from Underload, except sometimes not
16:27:34 <ais523> but that's about it if you wanted something sane
16:27:51 <ais523> oh, it also almost has cons
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16:32:22 <ais523> incidentally, I also had another language idea
16:32:48 <ais523> basically, it looks for the eight most commonly occurring repeated patterns in the source, and does some statistical analysis
16:32:58 <ais523> then interprets them as BF instructions and execute
16:33:13 <ais523> it'd save everyone time if we had an interp for all these pointless BF derivatives preëmptively
16:34:30 <Roujo> ais523: Why did people yell at you because you had your op-hat on?
16:34:35 <ais523> actually, you could get like 99% accuracy just by printing "Hello world" if the program couldn't be recognised
16:34:47 <ais523> Roujo: it's not so much yelling, it's more just reminding people to take it off again
16:34:56 <ais523> you don't want everything you say to be perceived as official
16:35:05 <ais523> it's like trying to play Agora entirely on a-b, but worse
16:35:54 <Roujo> Levels the talking field, true
16:36:34 <ais523> the other thing is that people joining a channel with visible ops typically assume that there's a troll attack going on /right now/
16:36:36 <Roujo> I'm used to talking in channels where everyone is +o, so I didn't get why =P
16:37:14 <ais523> that's unlikely to happen here; elliott has little tolerance for known troublemakers, and unknown troublemakers are normally much too fun to toy with to actually use op powers on them
16:38:14 <ais523> also, re the topic: "peöple"?
16:38:22 <ais523> I can pronounce that but it doesn't seem to be a real word
16:38:52 <ais523> also, is there any particular reason why LaTeX?
16:39:01 <ais523> (or at least, LaTeX styling and fonts)
16:41:05 <ais523> oh right, someone's just added a bunch of diaereses even where they don't apply :(
16:41:42 <ais523> also I dislike the way backquote is rendered
16:42:20 <ais523> who should I send these comments to, anyway? I instantly assumed Gregor was responsible, but browsing through the reasons behind this, I can't think of any reason why he would be
16:42:30 <ais523> (also the fact that it's on dropbox not codu implies it's likely someone else)
16:43:01 <fizzie> ais523: The wisdom PDF is boily's work, unless I misremember.
16:43:03 <mnoqy> Alexandre Boily, i'd guess
16:43:56 <ais523> also it didn't render the mojibake properly
16:44:01 <HackEgo> mojibake _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
16:44:15 <ais523> err, yes it did, the entry is either broken or not really like any mojibake I've ever seen
16:44:40 <fizzie> The backtick is very confusing, yes, I think someone already complained about it?
16:45:52 <ais523> also, I'm disappointed that nobody's talking about Snowflake :(
16:46:40 <elliott> you didn't tell us you finished the article!
16:47:00 <ais523> it's a complex language
16:47:05 <ais523> thus why I don't have an interp yet
16:47:18 <ais523> btw, if you write a Snowflake interp, I strongly recommend keeping a backup
16:47:43 <ais523> also, `? ursala is great
16:47:47 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
16:47:52 <elliott> ais523: polarised nested lists is an oklopolism, by the way
16:48:00 <ais523> elliott: good to hear it
16:48:13 <elliott> he had a beautiful language based around them that I forget the details of
16:48:23 <ais523> it probably wasn't Snowflake
16:48:29 <ais523> but it's a natural way to do reversibility
16:48:45 <ais523> because you can use a polarity flip to easily handle error conditions in a reversible way
16:49:05 <Roujo> `complain The backtick doesn't render right
16:49:06 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:49:35 <elliott> I think it used the syntax <...> for positive lists and >...< for negative ones
16:49:39 <elliott> using whitespace to disambiguate
16:49:42 <ais523> oh no, this PDF has the QDB appended
16:49:46 <ais523> I have to stop reading for safety reasons
16:49:49 <elliott> so you could say <>< <>< <>> ><>
16:49:53 <ais523> last time I laughed so much I had trouble breathing
16:50:00 <ais523> elliott: how very INTERcAL
16:50:46 <elliott> `complain missing line break before quote 81!!
16:50:47 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:52:12 <elliott> `complain also 95 and probably others...
16:52:14 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:52:34 <ais523> btw, did anyone see this year's ICFP contest? I saw it late so didn't participate, but it reminded me a lot of oklopol-Clue
16:52:51 <Roujo> ais523: The "guess the function" one?
16:53:06 <Roujo> Yeah, it sounded interesting
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16:53:29 <Roujo> <ais523> also, is there any particular reason why LaTeX?
16:53:39 <Roujo> Probably because boily really likes LaTeX
16:53:48 <ais523> LaTeX makes pretty much everything look academic
16:53:57 <ais523> in the same way that Latin makes pretty much anything look profound
16:54:19 <Roujo> `complain (By the way, what with the pineapples?)
16:54:21 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:55:07 <ais523> it's like the slices of lime, but more LaTeX
16:55:21 <HackEgo> Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d'informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l'autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
16:55:23 <HackEgo> echo $0- >> /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.;
16:55:54 <Roujo> Yeah, isn't it great?
16:55:55 <shachaf> Hmm, it should echo $@ instead
16:56:02 <ais523> shachaf: the implementation hardly matters, because the logs are greppable
16:56:05 <ais523> same way that the list works
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16:56:19 <mnoqy> i see a pretty obvious optimization to `complain
16:56:22 <Roujo> shachaf: Ah, possible. I'm not all that good at bash =P
16:56:31 <ais523> I've actually started doing something similar in other channels
16:56:46 <Roujo> shachaf: >I'm not all that good at bash
16:56:49 <Roujo> I thought it did something
16:56:59 <ais523> it does, it adds a hyphen to the end of the message
16:57:01 <Roujo> I didn't have access to a term to confirm
16:57:08 <Roujo> I thought it did something *more*
16:57:16 <mnoqy> good thing it doesn't matter
16:57:22 <Roujo> Which would explain why my other script didn't work >_>
16:57:22 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/\$0-/"$@"/' bin/complain
16:57:23 <ais523> so anyway, the /dev/null is filling up with copies of "bash-" atm
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16:57:49 <ais523> shachaf: I'm trying to figure out why you felt the need to correctly handle whitespace in arguments there
16:57:58 <ais523> it doesn't matter for at least two independent reasons
16:58:09 <ais523> (echo adds space between its arguments, and the output's going to /dev/null anyway)
16:58:49 <shachaf> ais523: I feel the need to use correct idioms by default when possible.
16:58:53 <ais523> I guess a habit that quotes arguments correctly is a good habit to have
16:59:01 <shachaf> Rather than think "should I use quotes here or " -- yes, that.
16:59:06 <Roujo> `run cat bin/complain
16:59:08 <HackEgo> echo "$@" >> /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.;
16:59:10 <shachaf> Except $@ is very special and gets quoted in a special way.
16:59:38 <ais523> well $@'s entire purpose is to get quoted correctly
16:59:44 -!- FreeFull has joined.
16:59:54 <Roujo> `run sed -i 's/>>/>/g' bin/complain
17:00:02 <Roujo> `run cat bin/complain
17:00:03 <HackEgo> echo "$@" > /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.;
17:00:03 <shachaf> $@ is weird because «"$@"» gets split into multiple arguments.
17:00:11 <Roujo> There, that's even better
17:00:24 <shachaf> `complain ais523 doesn't visit us enough
17:00:25 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
17:00:48 <ais523> shachaf: well, I spent days of thought + an evening writing a new, complex esolang which is some of my best work
17:00:54 <ais523> and #esoteric continues not discussing esolangs
17:01:04 <ais523> at this point I'm not sure it's possible to get ontopic discussion here
17:01:11 <ais523> and although I don't mind offtopic discussion
17:01:16 <ais523> the ontopic discussion is the reason I come here
17:01:27 <ais523> if there's no reason for me to be here, I don't visit
17:01:51 -!- Vorpal has joined.
17:02:08 <ais523> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snowflake
17:04:12 <Gregor> Hey, that's the name of my Linux distro X-D
17:04:26 <ais523> no reason I can't name an esolang after a Linux distro :)
17:04:31 <ais523> (although it wasn't, we can pretend if you like)
17:06:24 <Gregor> “due for the tendency for documentation to get out of date quickly” lul
17:07:26 <fizzie> Roujo: $0- is a syntax, it's just not the bash syntax.
17:07:52 <Roujo> What syntax is it, then? =)
17:07:57 <Vorpal> ais523, that sounds pretty cool (from the introduction, will read the rest in a bit, got some stuff to take care of first)
17:08:19 <ais523> I am working on an interp, incidentally, but it's not finished ye
17:08:37 <fizzie> Roujo: I don't quite recall, but it certainly was a syntax somewhere. ircII scripts? Something.
17:08:44 <Vorpal> ais523, so unlike Feather it is doable?
17:08:51 <ais523> hopefully I'll eventually have a working hello world that can run successfully more than once
17:08:58 <ais523> Vorpal: *unlike Feather it is possible for me to implement
17:09:10 <ais523> I'm still convinced that Feather is implementable in general, I've just proven myself not up to the task
17:09:19 -!- Bike has joined.
17:09:49 <Roujo> fizzie: Ah, yes. That's the way scripting works on KVIrc. Thanks =)
17:12:43 <Vorpal> ais523, "it should be stored in files encoded in ASCII (more complex encodings are unnecessary due to the highly limited character set)" <-- that seems to work for most languages though... Can only think of a couple of examples that require more than ASCII.
17:13:01 <Vorpal> and it is impossible to write a Snowflake compiler, due to the possibility that the compiler would be deleted before the program was run (thus leaving the program with no implementation to modify) <-- hm, not quite sure about this one. Would a JIT be impossible?
17:13:12 <ais523> Gregor: you can write << and >> instead
17:13:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, that an some encodings of INTERCAL
17:13:26 <Vorpal> then just some encodings of intercal
17:13:33 <ais523> Vorpal: I guess a JIT would be possible, indeed
17:13:35 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, digraphs and trigraphs worked so well for C ;)
17:14:18 <ais523> hmm, that script interaction isn't going to get annoying at all
17:14:27 <elliott> don't worry, it already has
17:14:35 <elliott> we're on the road to acceptance now
17:15:07 <Phantom_Hoover> can we not just shove a null or a zwsp in the middle of the face
17:15:18 <ais523> clearly, the fix is to give HackEgo ops, so that it can temporarily mute myndzi when erroring out from `? and then unmute em a few seconds later
17:15:29 <elliott> the response was added solely for the purpose of `?
17:15:31 * ais523 is in the mood for excessively complex fixes right now
17:15:32 <elliott> so I like that solution even more
17:15:42 <ais523> actually it'd do well to stop botloops generally
17:15:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o HackEgo.
17:15:50 <elliott> we should have HackEgo always opped
17:16:01 <elliott> it's a challenge, to get it to send arbitrary IRC commands
17:16:12 <Roujo> "As such, there is an effective column of tarnished thread stretching off into infinity."
17:16:28 <Bike> is the joke that everybody's too horribly lonery to just ask myndzi to stop
17:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wasn't that disabled in the wake of the plazma thing
17:16:46 <Bike> is this going to be another `ls wisdom
17:17:10 <ais523> Bike: it's more that we're esoprogrammers, and that solution is insufficiently creative
17:17:27 <Roujo> myndzi's wisdom explains it:
17:17:27 <Vorpal> ais523, my mind is not in a state for reading the execution model right now. Way too tired to remember the start of the paragraph when I reach the end of it. I guess I'll give you some feedback tomorrow.
17:17:30 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
17:17:36 <Bike> uh huh, uh huh, sure
17:18:28 <Roujo> ais523: Lachine is where I live. boily and I realized that not only do we live in the same city (Montréal), he's the brother of one of my friends. =P
17:18:46 <Vorpal> Roujo, that is pretty funny
17:18:46 <ais523> I figured from the topic that there had to be at least two people there
17:18:49 <ais523> but didn't know what it was
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17:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> What does ! in double quotes in bash actually do; and, is it actually worth the inconvenience of not being able to write exclamation marks at all in double quotes?
17:22:44 <shachaf> The answer to your second question is no.
17:23:27 <shachaf> The best part is that you can't even up-arrow and fix the old line.
17:23:49 <Bike> `run echo "!!"
17:23:57 <shachaf> Also it's only in interactive mode.
17:24:14 <Bike> oh, it just interpolates the last ccommand.
17:24:22 <Bike> or... something.
17:24:22 <ais523> $ echo test \ test \ $ echo "!-1" \ echo "echo test" \ echo test \ $
17:24:30 <Roujo> Yeah, that's what it does for me
17:24:31 <ais523> yeah, it's for interpolating previous commands
17:24:38 <ais523> I just checked from the docs
17:24:51 <ais523> bash has a man page, and less's search isn't that awful (although info would be better)
17:24:51 <Roujo> Very useful when you forget sudo
17:25:06 <Roujo> Well, it *was* useful when my "home" key didn't work
17:26:05 <ais523> I'm not going to act ignorant and pretend that everyone has man pages even on Windows
17:26:22 <ais523> although I did convert the entirety of Perl's documentation to HTML so that I could view it on Windows
17:26:37 <ais523> (that documentation that ships with Perl, that is; not all of CPAN, that'd take ages)
17:28:42 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:28:54 -!- Bike has joined.
17:30:30 <boily> back from lunch, I got talked about myself, and if anyone wants to contribute to the Thingue, holler and I'll add you to the github repo.
17:30:34 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, third question: is there actually any reason for echo "\!" to print \!
17:30:35 <boily> (or nooodl too, I guess.)
17:30:35 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
17:30:42 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: if you're doing PHP, yes.
17:31:31 <nooodl> boily: i couldn't get it to compile because my latex installation doesn't support cjk characters... i have no idea how to fix this
17:32:05 <boily> nooodl: I use the texlive-langcjk package on archlinux.
17:33:04 <Vorpal> Message from syslogd@dragon at Sep 4 23:21:00 ...
17:33:04 <Vorpal> kernel:[189848.967709] journal commit I/O error
17:33:09 <Vorpal> That looks... worrying
17:33:46 <Vorpal> Yeah, an external USB 3 HDD is remounted as read-only on that system
17:33:57 <Vorpal> The backup disk to be specific
17:34:09 <ais523> good thing syslogd told you, then
17:34:21 <Vorpal> ais523, it was actually printed to the console
17:34:26 <Roujo> Read-only backup sounds like a good idea
17:34:38 <Vorpal> Roujo, seems to have happened during a backup
17:34:41 * boily dat extrema unctio ad Vorpalem
17:35:00 <Vorpal> [189848.966756] EXT4-fs warning (device sde1): ext4_end_bio:250: I/O error writing to inode 15076550 (offset 17760256 size 126976 starting block 56993246)
17:35:00 <Vorpal> [189848.966758] Buffer I/O error on device sde1, logical block 56992990
17:35:00 <Vorpal> [189848.966760] Buffer I/O error on device sde1, logical block 56992991
17:35:10 <Vorpal> thousand of lines like that
17:35:12 <ais523> Vorpal: it probably sent it to all VTs
17:35:55 <Vorpal> ais523, well, the disk is like less than two weeks old, but the USB 3 hub it is on is much newer than that, in fact the first after buying the hub
17:36:03 <boily> your HDD is HDDead, jim.
17:36:46 <boily> nooodl: could you send me the log of the pdf not compiling?
17:38:14 <Vorpal> boily, the HDD seems fine after remounting it. No SMART errors. A bit of journal recovery. Going to run a SMART tests on it.
17:38:31 <Vorpal> boily, I suspect it might be USB3-related actually
17:38:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:38:43 <Vorpal> or related to that new hub, since it happened in the middle of the backup
17:39:04 <boily> oh. bad thing, that. not karmic at all.
17:39:34 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.848388] hub 4-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -71)
17:40:01 <ais523> boily: karmic's a bit old by now, isn't it?
17:40:10 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189840.988070] usb 6-1.3.2: USB disconnect, device number 91
17:40:11 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189841.314285] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: ERROR no room on ep ring
17:40:11 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189841.314289] hub 3-2:1.0: activate --> -12
17:40:11 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.319721] usb 4-2.4: reset SuperSpeed USB device number 3 using xhci_hcd
17:40:11 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.335562] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d24320c0
17:40:13 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.335568] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d2432100
17:40:16 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.611473] usb 4-2.4: reset SuperSpeed USB device number 3 using xhci_hcd
17:40:19 <ais523> I/O failing due to the USB link failing is reasonable
17:40:21 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.627292] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d24320c0
17:40:24 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.627297] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d2432100
17:40:27 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.848388] hub 4-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -71)
17:40:29 <Vorpal> Yep, looks like USB fucked up badly
17:40:55 <Vorpal> Seems to have happened like a second after I disconnected my phone from another USB controller where it was charging
17:41:04 <boily> err -71 is bad. it indeed is an USB cabling error, usually. remove any intermediate steps or hops or everything, change cables, hope for the best.
17:41:20 <Vorpal> boily, oh? Is there a list of these numbers somewhere?
17:41:20 <ais523> boily: did you just look that up, or did you have it memorized?
17:42:32 <boily> Vorpal: probably. in fact, that may be very useful.
17:42:42 <Vorpal> Anyway I *believe* [189840.988070] usb 6-1.3.2: USB disconnect, device number 91 is my phone disconnecting
17:42:45 <boily> ais523: no, -71 is common and happened to me multiple times.
17:43:12 <Vorpal> The bus matches, the device doesn't though, but that seems to change on every disconnect or connect
17:43:13 <Roujo> boily works in a linux box. He probably has every man page printed on his desk.
17:43:30 <Vorpal> Roujo, he IS a linux box.
17:43:33 <boily> ais523: I was doing mobile development on android devices, and I had connection problems with one phone, for example.
17:43:58 <ais523> Roujo: why would you print man pages? apropos or even grep are better at searching than pper
17:44:16 <boily> some day, I'll build an automated arduinoed facepalm machine, and I'll dedicate it to you guys.
17:44:25 <Vorpal> boily, my phone seems to have a glitchy connector nowdays. Just over a year old too. Charging still works fine though, it is just that data might glitch out of you touch the connector
17:44:40 <Roujo> ais523: What if you don't have access to your computer?
17:44:48 <boily> Roujo: we have a custom man page about how to brew coffee, scotched taped to the wall next to the machine.
17:44:49 <ais523> Roujo: then typically I don't need the content of the man page
17:45:00 <Roujo> ais523: Be Prepared is what I say
17:45:15 <ais523> in the very few cases where I've wanted to check a man page and not had my regular computer, /and/ the computer I was actually using didn't have man pages installed
17:45:24 <boily> Vorpal: then it's like an old dusty NES: try to find the correct ritual that works, and stick to it.
17:45:27 <ais523> there was an Internet connection I could reasonably use, so I looked them up online
17:46:00 <Vorpal> boily, my ritual is charging over USB but running an SSH server on the phone and mounting it over sshfs instead
17:46:01 <Roujo> Right, the Internet
17:46:10 <Vorpal> boily, works better than bloody MTP anyway
17:46:34 <ais523> Roujo: I actually /can/ conceive of a situation where this wouldn't work, but it's never actually happened so far
17:46:45 <ais523> and there's a limit to the number of things I can carry around just in case
17:46:46 <Vorpal> boily, fuck MTP I say. Why did they think it was a good idea.
17:46:51 <Roujo> I'm curious... What would that situation be?
17:46:54 <ais523> I used to carry out a printout of the FIDE Rules of Chess, for emergencies
17:46:58 <ais523> and it actually came in handy once
17:47:02 <boily> Vorpal: that thing I've been avoiding since its inception?
17:47:04 <ais523> but I don't any more, it's not worth it
17:47:07 <Vorpal> boily, you can't do anything useful over it, like rsyncing your music library.
17:47:10 <ais523> Roujo: programming a Linux-based microcontroller
17:47:25 <ais523> some of the labs where I've done it had Windows computers only, and only intermittently working Internet
17:47:34 <ais523> so if the Internet had gone down, I could be left manpageless
17:47:34 <boily> Vorpal: it's useful, therefore you can't.
17:48:15 <Vorpal> lsusb is a bit on the fence about my phone model:
17:48:17 <Vorpal> Bus 006 Device 050: ID 04e8:6860 Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd GT-I9100 Phone [Galaxy S II], GT-I9300 Phone [Galaxy S III], GT-P7500 [Galaxy Tab 10.1]
17:48:38 <Vorpal> The second one is correct
17:48:40 <ais523> probably those models use the same identifier
17:48:43 <ais523> so lsusb has no way to tell which
17:49:07 <boily> my desk is manpageless: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/IMAG0028.jpg
17:49:17 <Vorpal> ais523, however, it does show up as GT-I9300 in Windows for example (as an MTP device). So that managed to detect it somehow
17:49:27 <ais523> boily: did you feel the need to photograph your desk just to prove there were no man pages on it?
17:49:47 <Vorpal> also not enough monitors
17:49:55 <ais523> home wouldn't have a room that shape, most likely
17:50:03 <boily> ais523: yes. I have honour!
17:50:18 <Roujo> boily: Nice desk. I like it.
17:50:24 <Roujo> Mine is a bit... messier.
17:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> this isn't sweden where everyone lives in rooms the size of a small house
17:50:32 <ais523> I actually don't have a desk atm
17:50:47 <boily> elliott: can you voice me, please?
17:50:50 <ais523> the teaching contract thing ended
17:51:01 <ais523> so I gave the desk back because I have no reason to use it and the department's short atm
17:51:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, eh, not that roomy in my place. I just thought it looked a bit unordered for a work desk
17:51:28 <ais523> (well, I actually returned a key that opens most of the doors in the building, rather than the desk; the desk was in the right place, the problem was that the wrong person was there)
17:51:38 <ais523> Vorpal: my work desk was basically empty
17:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> this isn't sweden, where all desktop items are aligned upon perfect euclidean boundaries
17:51:47 <ais523> I spent 4 years with nothing there but CPU/monitor/mouse/keyboard
17:52:01 <Vorpal> ais523, what about the HDD?
17:52:02 <boily> `run echo "An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info" >wisdom/atm
17:52:07 <Bike> i assume swiss desktop items are noneuclidean and gigeresque.
17:52:08 <ais523> and a filing cabinet with a bunch of paper in (most of which has now been recycled or sent for secure disposal)
17:52:12 <ais523> Vorpal: CPU tower container thing
17:52:33 <ais523> there was probably an HDD in there too, although all the filesystems I use regularly were NFS
17:52:42 <boily> elliott: you mathemanswered me, didn't you?
17:52:46 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? A thin client?
17:52:47 <ais523> well, still use from time to time
17:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> and dutch desktop items disobey all laws of perspective?
17:53:06 <ais523> Vorpal: no, it was like a powerful quad-core machine or something
17:53:19 <ais523> but the storage was all elsewhere, for centralisation reasons
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17:53:34 <Vorpal> ais523, a quad core is not that powerful these days, more like the norm nowdays. Impressive how technology progresses
17:53:46 <Vorpal> Even my phone is quad core after all
17:53:47 <ais523> yeah, but it was powerful at the time
17:54:01 <ais523> it's quite rare that I actually used the power
17:54:07 <Vorpal> My phone is way more powerful than my first computer. By order of magnitudes.
17:54:13 <boily> Roujo: I githubly found you.
17:54:21 <ais523> probably the only time was when I used Virtualbox for marking the keyloggers
17:54:28 <Vorpal> And my first computer was a first-model iBook, so it isn't like I'm talking about a 386 or such here
17:54:53 <ais523> mostly because rebooting would have been a pain if they went wrong and crashed the kernel
17:54:57 <Vorpal> ais523, marking the keyloggers? What?
17:55:04 <Vorpal> Key loggers? That sounds... nefarious
17:55:06 <ais523> Vorpal: the students were asked to write keyloggers
17:55:08 <ais523> I was asked to mark them
17:55:19 <ais523> it's quite a simple exercise that you can give starting-out kernel developers
17:55:37 <ais523> you only have to hook one interrupt, and it has the basics of things like memory allocation discipline and proper locking
17:55:44 <ais523> and making files in /proc
17:56:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I would assume it works differently for PS/2, serial, USB and so on?
17:56:39 <ais523> I don't think it did in that exercise, possibly they were hooking at a different abstraction level
17:57:05 <ais523> or else the course designer didn't realise that would be a problem, and it just happened to use the same virtualised port in VirtualBox
17:57:22 <ais523> (the students were working in a lab of computers set aside for that sort of thing, which get wiped afterwards)
17:57:34 <ais523> I can believe that the people in charge of the course didn't think it would be a problem
17:58:12 <Roujo> boily: How do you get that sweet, short URL?
17:58:17 <ais523> it was an 11-week course, designed to be worked on at the same time as 5 other courses, about assembler and C and the GNU dialect of C and C++ and Linux kernel development
17:58:19 <Vorpal> Not that you ever see anything but USB these days. Or I guess whatever laptops use for their internal keyboards...
17:58:26 <Vorpal> Hm what *do* those use?
17:58:35 <Vorpal> Internal PS/2 or something better?
17:58:56 <ais523> but it could believably be something else
17:59:11 <Vorpal> ais523, seems like it would be costlier to not reuse the existing USB bus, like almost all bluetooth modules do in laptops anyway
17:59:43 <ais523> Vorpal: well then you need a bunch of hardware to convert the keypresses to the USB protocol
17:59:46 <ais523> might still be cheaper, though, I guess
18:00:04 <ais523> it would depend on whether complexity on the motherboard or keyboard was more costly
18:00:04 <Roujo> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/a9v6ve4elg7m36p/20130906_135201.jpg
18:00:25 <ais523> which would likely depend on what connectors happened to be on the motherboard
18:00:38 <ais523> because you're probably ordering them COTS, rather than having them custom-made
18:00:53 <Vorpal> Roujo, oh? I thought it wasn't home
18:00:59 <Roujo> More like "mostly open cubicule", but yeah, office
18:01:00 <Vorpal> Roujo, seems like you suffer a 16:9 monitor though
18:01:21 <Roujo> Vorpal: What do you suggest? =P
18:01:24 <ais523> do people actually work on their desktop computers at offices?
18:01:31 <ais523> I used my tiny laptop/almost a netbook
18:01:41 <ais523> at least partly because it was outside the firewall
18:01:47 <ais523> thus no real risk if I messed up
18:01:49 <Vorpal> ais523, we have laptops in mostly permanent docking stations at work
18:02:02 <Roujo> ais523: I do. Few people use laptops here.
18:02:06 <ais523> Vorpal: that mostly defeats the point of a laptop
18:02:32 <Vorpal> ais523, They are pretty useless outside of those docks, since they use 180 W PSUs to run at max speed. Battery time is abyssmal. But they are really good when compiling code. Top end quad core i7s
18:02:37 <ais523> I carry my laptop pretty much everywhere
18:02:38 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:02:41 <Vorpal> And massive SSDs inside
18:02:53 <Vorpal> And as much RAM as you can fit in them.
18:02:59 <ais523> also, the battery time on this is just about sufficient to boot it and enter your password
18:03:02 <Vorpal> I think mine has 12 GB RAM
18:03:04 <ais523> because it's several years old
18:03:13 <ais523> it used to be like 8 hours, but modern batteries lose duration so quickly
18:03:38 <boily> Roujo: sorry, stuck with a hairy XML problem here.
18:03:54 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I couldn't work on a laptop, too small screen. I regluarly use 2 external 24" 16:10 monitors + the built in laptop 16:9 monitors for various windows
18:04:12 <boily> I really would like to, but my SO wont let me near any blade.
18:04:29 <ais523> Vorpal: I can fit two 80-column programs side by side on this screen
18:04:33 <ais523> which is big enough for me
18:04:39 <ais523> on occasion sometimes I'll split it into 4
18:04:42 <ais523> both vertically and horizontally
18:04:53 <boily> Roujo: but yeah, dropbox.com → dossier Public → clic droit sur l'image → Copier le lien public.
18:05:01 <ais523> Vorpal: what, 80 columns or 4 programs?
18:05:54 <Vorpal> ais523, need an entire monitor to run the various component simulations, since I develop for a distributed embedded system, with like 4 units having monitors on their own, plus a window for the operator panel with the levers and what not. And a window with the IO module simulator
18:06:15 <Vorpal> lots of simulated CAN buses there
18:06:17 <ais523> why does a simulation need a monitor at all?
18:06:45 <Vorpal> ais523, well, if you want to mess with the GUI the users see. It is a control system for mining equipment. And there are several screens in the real machine.
18:07:01 <ais523> yeah, developing GUIs is a decent reason to have a larger monitor than everyone else
18:07:06 <ais523> so you can have their monitor + other things
18:07:14 <ais523> ofc, this is a reason for everyone else to have small monitors
18:07:17 <ais523> otherwise that couldn't be posible
18:08:06 <Vorpal> ais523, plus there is the manging client used in the control room or mine office and the coordination server for remote allocation (and some system configuration), but I can't have non-overlapping windows if I have *everything* open.
18:08:23 * ais523 hopes that "manging" is a typo for "mangling" rather than "managing"
18:08:53 <Vorpal> ais523, the latter alas. It just shows where all the units are on a map, and how much fuel and so on they have
18:09:01 <Vorpal> And where in the drill plans they are
18:09:28 <Vorpal> ais523, since each application also opens a 80x25 terminal window for the log/debug output, the screens fills quickly
18:10:24 <Vorpal> We use a autohotkey script to move all the windows around after starting the simulation. I hate autohotkeys syntax with a passion.
18:11:15 <ais523> this is beginning to sound increasingly WTF over time
18:11:29 -!- Bike has joined.
18:11:30 <ais523> I guess one really good thing about working for a CS department
18:11:45 <ais523> is that the sysadmins / computer technicians (they're the same people there) are really really good at their jobs
18:11:52 <ais523> because if they weren't, everyone would call them on it
18:12:16 <Bike> in a CS lab i actually managed to print a document to a physical printer
18:12:22 <ais523> I ended up having to need a kernel with custom configuration for a marking script, we explained the problem and they created a VM with a suitably configured kernel
18:12:28 <ais523> and the same filesystems as everything else
18:12:38 <ais523> Bike: at our lab, that'd have something like a 50% chance of working
18:12:41 <Vorpal> ais523, Anyway autohotkey is an a quite reasonable option for moving windows around on Windows. Because afaik there is no other good option for doing that when you press a key combo
18:12:47 <ais523> also it was mostly me who ended up refilling the printers in practice
18:12:50 <ais523> because I printed so many handouts
18:13:09 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, I'm just more amused that the situation became necessary in the first place
18:13:17 <ais523> it'd be nice to just pipe all the terminal output into a monitoring program, for instance
18:13:26 <ais523> that presents it appropriately
18:14:06 <Vorpal> ais523, true, that would be nice. Not sure it would be doable under windows though
18:14:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I was working with Windows console programming recently
18:14:27 <ais523> and my verdict is, "no idea"
18:14:39 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway windows opens windows (pun not intended) in terrible positions by default.
18:14:45 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not even a pun
18:14:48 <ais523> it's what the OS is named after
18:14:57 <Bike> ais523: 50% is more than the usual rate. time before that i tried to print something i had to download drivers. and install via a sh.
18:15:02 <ais523> which is probably a bad idea because the existence of X means that they can't trademark it
18:15:14 <ais523> Bike: we wouldn't have enough perms to do that
18:15:21 <ais523> the actual printing system worked fine
18:15:24 <Bike> on my personal computer, i mean
18:15:27 <ais523> but the queues had a tendency to just get stuck
18:15:41 <ais523> I'd do that via print to PDF + scp + ssh to send it to the printer
18:15:45 <Vorpal> We have a pretty cool printer system at work. You just print to the "Print Anywhere" device, then go to a printer and swipe your RFID door key thingy
18:15:47 <Bike> okay, well, that sucks.
18:15:51 <Vorpal> then you get a list of your printer queue
18:15:59 <Vorpal> And can select to print whatever
18:16:00 <ais523> but I was talking about from the labs themselves
18:16:15 <ais523> but it's very rare I needed to print anything other than handouts for students and marksheets
18:16:24 <ais523> and those could most easily be printed in the lab anyway
18:16:41 <ais523> (at least partly to stop people stealing them before I had a chance to collect them from the printer)
18:16:51 <Bike> also you know what's weird? the way we have a desktop metaphor and then cover our desktops in windows
18:16:55 <ais523> (which is unlikely but I took data protection seriosuly, especially when marks are involved)
18:17:38 <Bike> like, i have a physical desk, and there are hardly any windows on it at all.
18:17:46 <Vorpal> ais523, where do you work now?
18:18:04 <ais523> Vorpal: currently I'm finishing up a PhD, so at home
18:18:06 <Bike> maybe back in the 60s there was a fad of desks made of glass
18:18:09 <Bike> this is the only logical explanation
18:18:25 <Bike> some kind of system of wheels to move glass around the surface
18:18:27 <Vorpal> Bike, I have seen living room tables made of glass
18:18:53 <Vorpal> Well the surface that is, usually not the legs
18:19:05 <Bike> in the desktop metaphor that would be having your desktop background be a view into your CRT or some shit (back when we used crts)
18:19:07 <Vorpal> Though that would be cool and probably dangerous
18:19:41 <Bike> man. remember crts?
18:19:49 <Vorpal> I hate them with a passion
18:20:02 <Bike> how is something with an "electron gun" so damn inconvenient.
18:20:06 <Vorpal> Never really sharp, always slightly blurry and headache inducing
18:20:18 <Bike> if i had an electron gun i'd just shoot it all the time
18:20:34 <ais523> good CRTs actually have better image quality than good LCDs
18:20:39 <boily> if I had an electron gun, I'd make myself instant hot-dogs.
18:20:41 <ais523> but people preferred LCDs because they took up less space
18:20:41 <Vorpal> Bike, it isn't called a "gun" in Swedish. We use the terms "anod" and "katod"
18:20:52 <Bike> my grocery clerk? a professor? someone asking me out on a date? BAM electrongun'd.
18:20:52 <ais523> boily: I'm not sure if you can cook a hot dog effectively with beta-radiation
18:20:52 <Vorpal> Pretty sure they are used in English as well
18:21:03 <ais523> Vorpal: "anode", "cathode"
18:21:06 <Bike> Vorpal: anode and cath- yeah.
18:21:13 <boily> ais523: cooking it effectively is not the point.
18:21:16 <ais523> technical terms for referring to electrodes at particular voltages
18:21:27 <Vorpal> ais523, that depends on the quality of the LCD I would say. IPS panels can be pretty damn good
18:21:27 <boily> (irradiating hot-dog sausages, otoh... :D)
18:21:46 <Vorpal> ais523, I moved over to IPS at home after getting used to it at work
18:22:52 <Fiora> Bike: would you electron-gun iverum
18:22:58 <Vorpal> I can heartily recommend Dell UltraSharp U2413 btw. Dell UltraSharp U2412M is a bit cheaper (mostly due to the fact that it is sRGB instead of wide gamut) but still really good
18:23:06 <Bike> Fiora: you /and/ him, babe
18:23:23 <Fiora> that sounds painful :<
18:23:46 <ais523> Vorpal: anyway we wouldn't use "anode"/"cathode" to talk about an electron gun generally in English; it'd be like casually describing a computer by what sort of motherboard it used
18:23:57 <Bike> i don't think electron guns actually do anything to people
18:24:20 <Vorpal> ais523, hm I guess there is the term "elektronstrålerör" now that I think about it. Which would be "electron beam tube"
18:24:51 <Vorpal> or even electron ray tube
18:24:56 <Vorpal> both translations work
18:25:05 <Bike> i mean, electrons are like, small,, man.
18:26:03 <ais523> Bike: beta rays are actually pretty dangerous
18:26:12 <ais523> mostly via corrupting DNA
18:26:28 <Bike> Fiora: ok, i'll shoot him first to make sure it's safe.
18:26:46 <Fiora> beta particles don't sound very safe
18:26:53 <ais523> actually, alpha/beta/gamma rays are all dangerous; alpha are the most damaging if they get inside the body, but also get stopped very easily
18:27:11 <ais523> like, even a piece of paper gives pretty good shielding from alpha rays
18:27:28 <ais523> so beta are the most dangerous if you're near the source, and gamma from a long distance
18:27:51 <Vorpal> ais523, what about neutrons?
18:28:02 <ais523> unless you pointed an alpha ray directly at an open wound, but don't do that
18:28:04 <Vorpal> As happens in a chain reaction with uranium and such
18:28:18 <Vorpal> What is that radiation even called?
18:28:22 <ais523> I assume that there are people who know how dangerous they are, but I'm not one of them
18:30:01 <Fiora> neutrons are just called neutrons I thikn
18:30:21 <Bike> imo zeta rays.
18:30:54 <ais523> there's only one sort of neutron AFAIK
18:31:07 <ais523> I guess there are antineutrons too but they tend not to exist very much
18:31:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, in that case, there are different kinds of gamma ray too
18:31:21 <Bike> wow, way to be discriminatory ais.
18:31:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess alpha, beta and gamma are all pretty constrained by the nuclear processes that emit them
18:31:59 <Bike> can't neutrons have differente spin or some shit
18:32:03 <Bike> all these particles fuckcing spin
18:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> but afaik the interactions that lead to alpha/beta decay have fairly strict requirements
18:32:39 <Fiora> yeah, most alpha particles have around the same energy
18:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> there's an isotope of tantalum which should in theory be ridiculously unstable, but because of this bizarre convergence of different effects is very very stable
18:33:36 <Bike> the fuck is tantalum even for
18:33:36 <Fiora> I love those weird cool isotopes like that
18:33:54 <Bike> god fuck capacitors
18:34:14 <Bike> j/k, i <3 capacitance.
18:34:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: was that during your metallurgy hipster phase
18:34:44 <Fiora> or like, the reason that technetium doesn't have any stable isotopes
18:34:49 <Fiora> or the be8/c12 resnoance
18:34:54 <Bike> i'm really into niobium, you've probably never heard of it, etc
18:34:58 <Fiora> (nuclear physics is so wonderful)
18:35:20 <ais523> Bike: there are such things as element hipsters?
18:35:45 <ais523> sorry, I have more scrollback than Vorpal but I read it backwards
18:35:48 <ais523> so I can get a little out of context sometimes
18:35:57 <boily> Roujo: could you voice me? elliott is being a mathematician today.
18:36:00 <Vorpal> ais523, I have 1000 lines per channel iir
18:36:38 <Bike> ais523: lanthanides are way better displayed on vinyl
18:36:46 <ais523> Vorpal: are you not aware that "Vorpal has no scrollback" is a #esoteric meme?
18:36:57 <Roujo> I am Not Authorized to Perform this Operatiön
18:37:41 <Vorpal> ais523, I am, but I'm ignoring it
18:37:58 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway the reason for me is probably reading it from the end and upwards too
18:37:59 <Roujo> boily: Ask HackEgo
18:38:11 <boily> HackEgo: VOICE! NOW!
18:38:15 <boily> HackEgo: pretty please.
18:38:25 <ais523> boily: why do you want voice so much anyway?
18:38:44 <boily> ais523: equilibrium of the forces. and I'm jealous of Roujo's status :D
18:38:50 <Bike> we should download irssi into hackego and have it join. it will, of course, be opped
18:39:12 <ais523> I don't think hackego knows its own IRC password
18:40:10 <ais523> in much the same way that programs are normally unaware of their own source coe
18:40:14 <ais523> (except in the case of Feather)
18:40:24 <ais523> oh, also Snowflake tells programs what their own source code is
18:40:41 <ais523> which isn't actually required, ofc – you could just write everything as quines – but they tend to need to know so that they can repair it
18:40:41 <Bike> what about kleene's theorem..................
18:41:13 <HackEgo> 871) -!- ais523 has parted #esoteric ("someone is going to mention Feather, I know it"). \ 872) <Bike> i don't even know anything about feather and i'm getting sick of the time travel jokes \ 902) <ais523> in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe <Sgeo> ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a fo
18:41:19 <Vorpal> why does Roujo have voice anyway?
18:41:29 <Roujo> The Canadian Cup, 2013
18:41:41 <ais523> it's boily who asked for it
18:42:07 <Roujo> All I know is that I got voice while commenting the race
18:43:26 <ais523> hmm… what might be interesting would be an IRC flag/permission-like thing
18:43:40 <ais523> that does nothing at all, except allow you to turn it on and off on other people
18:43:46 <ais523> it'd be an interesting exercise in social dynamics
18:43:46 <Roujo> That would be awesome
18:44:11 <Roujo> Over on SlashNET, there's a channel where anyone that gets in gets ops
18:44:30 <Roujo> So you just have to join it, and you get ops
18:44:31 <metasepia> SlashNET is a medium-sized, independently operated Internet Relay Chat (IRC) network.
18:44:43 <Roujo> That's also an interesting social experiment
18:44:47 <Bike> is slashnet one of those anti-serv places
18:44:55 <boily> Roujo: you heretic. there is one network, and the network is Freenode.
18:44:58 <Roujo> Nope, Services are there
18:45:04 <ais523> Roujo: heh; I remember the terms and conditions for quakenet
18:45:23 <ais523> which pretty much explicitly say "don't do that, are you idiots, if you op everyone in your channel we refuse to help if someone screws it up (which they will)"
18:45:27 <ais523> well, they don't use the same language
18:45:44 <Roujo> I've yet to see anyone abuse the op powers
18:46:03 <Roujo> Which is impressive, imo
18:46:10 <ais523> it depends on which networks you go to
18:46:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:46:24 <ais523> I've been on the receiving end of op abuse in other channels before now
18:46:24 <Roujo> On the everyone-is-an-op channel, I mean
18:46:43 <Roujo> I got k/b'd from other channels for no reason before =P
18:46:48 <ais523> my normal technique for dealing with it is to avoid the channel for a long time in order to worry people into thinking that I was seriously offended
18:46:52 <Roujo> 1) "I thought you were someone else"
18:46:58 <Roujo> 2) "I don't know you, so get out"
18:47:03 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:47:05 <ais523> especially in channels where the vast majority of people have autojoin, and joke kicks are comon
18:47:20 <ais523> for 2), it's called setting invite-only (or channel key)
18:47:23 <ais523> 1) is understandable though
18:47:45 <Roujo> It was just pretty random
18:47:48 <Roujo> Since I just got in
18:48:11 <Roujo> It was about an old community I was a part of, so I was catching up, talking to people
18:48:28 <Roujo> And then some op came back, saw that I was called Skynet, panicked and k/b'd me
18:48:58 <Bike> terrified of the terminator menace
18:49:23 <ais523> from my point of view: if Skynet really does become reality and start taking over the Internet (and then the whole world by proxy)
18:49:34 <ais523> if it actually thinks it's safe for it to use its real name, we're probably screwed no matter what
18:49:38 <ais523> so there's no point in worrying about it
18:51:18 <Bike> guess we're going to have to travel back in time to tell the op this.
18:51:22 <Roujo> ais523: We were talking about how I became Skynet just yesterday
18:51:47 <Roujo> When you suggested that I /nick Skynet to scare Darth_Cliche, back when I played BlogNomic
18:51:56 <ais523> wow, I'd mostly forgotten that
18:52:04 <Roujo> So that blognomicbot would show "Players watching the game: Skynet"
18:52:17 <ais523> I caused enough controversy when I started using callforjudgement on blognomic IRC, before I was a player
18:52:20 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
18:52:25 <Roujo> She didn't remember it at all, either =P
18:52:31 <Bike> blognomic controversy
18:52:33 <callforjudgement> the nick stuck, but I'm not allowed to use it for nomic any more
18:52:47 <Roujo> I remember, though. She came in and, again, k/b'd me. =P
18:53:04 <metasepia> Software description: support applications for various blognomic dynasties (Python).
18:53:04 <Roujo> Nevermind the fact that I had ops, so I was (probably) a known player =P
18:53:19 <Roujo> boily: http://blognomic.com/
18:53:21 * boily kicks DDG in the self-referential definitions
18:53:29 -!- mnoqy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:53:37 -!- mnoqy has joined.
18:54:03 <callforjudgement> basically, because a) it's easy to play, and b) it's fun the first few dynasties
18:54:17 <Vorpal> <ais523> I caused enough controversy when I started using callforjudgement on blognomic IRC, before I was a player <-- what does that do?
18:54:25 <boily> I think I tried nomic once with my bro and another guy (or girl, or human. probably human). it was... politico-confuzzling.
18:54:26 <Roujo> Or your win gets papered over and you resent the game forever
18:54:44 <Roujo> Vorpal: Call for Judgement, or CFJ, is an in-game term
18:54:48 <Roujo> Which makes the nick confusing =P
18:54:49 <callforjudgement> Vorpal: in Nomic, a call for judgement is what happens when there's a dispute about the rules and they want someone to resolve it
18:55:02 <callforjudgement> now, in BlogNomic specifically, they felt it'd be useful for people to make anonymous CFJs
18:55:05 <Roujo> boily: We should play together one day.
18:55:17 <Roujo> Heck, I played Nomic with Pouti for quite some time
18:55:44 <callforjudgement> (the standard example was in a Werewolf/Mafia game; if one of the Mafia felt that something was unfair to their team, they couldn't exactly bring up the point publicly)
18:55:50 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:56:02 <callforjudgement> thus, they had a user account, "callforjudgment" (US spelling), for the purpose of making them, that anyone could use
18:56:16 <callforjudgement> someone (possibly multiple people) started trolling via it, so it got deactivated
18:56:42 <callforjudgement> except I didn't notice the spelling difference, so I did it with UK spelling
18:57:01 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
18:57:05 -!- ais523 has changed nick to CallForJudgement.
18:57:22 <CallForJudgement> anyway, things lead to other things, and it's probably my primary nick now
18:58:55 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, really?
18:59:02 <boily> Roujo: there's the OUMF going on. retrogaming night today!
18:59:24 <CallForJudgement> (which, as is well-known by now, was randomly generated by the University's computer system)
19:00:23 <CallForJudgement> there's also "scarf", but mostly just because I noticed it wasn't taken
19:01:09 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:01:19 <Roujo> boily: What's that? =)
19:01:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:02:00 <boily> Roujo: one of Montréal's multiple mini-festivals. art émergent, random stuff, random people, random randomity.
19:02:31 <Roujo> `run cat /dev/random >> OUMF
19:04:42 -!- conehead has joined.
19:04:42 <Vorpal> <CallForJudgement> it's less taken on average than "ais523" <-- really? I wouldn't imagine it was used a lot
19:05:16 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: three-letters three-numbers will be taken by some people just by chance
19:05:52 -!- solidoodlesuppor has joined.
19:05:56 <Vorpal> True, but far from everyone will take one of those
19:06:00 <boily> `relcome solidoodlesuppor
19:06:03 <HackEgo> solidoodlesuppor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:06:22 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: and a good thing too, they'd all be taken already if they did
19:07:30 <boily> CallForJudgement: good to see I'm not the only one trying to autocomplete on mkdir.
19:07:37 <boily> (reformatting your quotes, btw. hth.)
19:08:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9162
19:09:04 <boily> only those that match /<[^[:alpha:]]*ais523[^[:alpha:]]*>/
19:10:19 <boily> I seem to have missed the USB sushi antediluvian craze...
19:13:48 <boily> in any case, your quotes are ready. you can peruse the PDF.
19:16:45 <CallForJudgement> so that I can mark the passage of qdb times by the esolangs being discussed
19:17:07 <mnoqy> quick someone say something funny about snowflake
19:18:23 <CallForJudgement> actually, I think I have a good definition for what makes a good esolang
19:18:26 <boily> why a snowflake? what is Radixal?
19:18:33 <boily> ~eval primeFactors 825
19:18:47 <CallForJudgement> it's a language which, at the point in time at which it was created, cannot be programmed in using programming techniques that already exist
19:19:06 <CallForJudgement> but BF derviatives are not good esolangs, because techniques for BF are well known now
19:20:15 <CallForJudgement> esolangs mostly exist to make things hard to understand on the surface
19:20:28 <Roujo> Snowflake uses kittens to reverse stack polarity.
19:20:32 <CallForJudgement> whereas nowadays, legit cryptography is about being mathematically unbreakable even if you know what you're doing
19:20:38 <Roujo> That's enough to make it a good esolang in my book.
19:21:10 <Roujo> Then again, few people even read my book.
19:21:40 <Roujo> CallForJudgement: Good enough of a quote for you?
19:21:54 <Roujo> solidoodlesuppor: Does VB count?
19:22:19 <Roujo> Right, PHP. Qualifies since there's still no known good programming technique to use.
19:22:20 <CallForJudgement> solidoodlesuppor: there was exactly one instance where an esolang made commercial success
19:22:22 <boily> Taneb: we're talking programming.
19:22:36 <boily> Taneb: also, your quotes were reformatted.
19:22:48 <Roujo> "sold for a net profit in 1991"
19:22:50 <HackEgo> 389) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 395) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 396) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 402) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insani
19:22:53 <CallForJudgement> also arguably the $25,000 I won from Wolfram Research was esolanging
19:23:13 <Roujo> CallForJudgement: You won 25k from them? Awesome! =D
19:23:21 <CallForJudgement> I think part of the reason I got there first is that people were trying to see it as a maths/CS problem
19:23:36 <CallForJudgement> (understandable, because most people don't know what esoprogramming is)
19:24:38 <CallForJudgement> basically because he seemed to consider the entire problem as a yes or no thing
19:24:39 <Taneb> CallForJudgement, I thought you were a newb! I have not been paying attention
19:25:03 -!- k_k_k has quit.
19:25:24 <Taneb> I have never seen you use that nick before
19:25:58 <CallForJudgement> I'm not annoyed at the controversy, I'm annoyed at Wolfram for not even noticing its existence
19:26:08 <CallForJudgement> also for thinking that something that runs in O(2^2^n) might be viable
19:26:25 <CallForJudgement> that computational class is too high for most people to comprehend
19:26:30 <Taneb> CallForJudgement, by the end of the month I'll be attending the University of York
19:26:48 <Taneb> Just thought you may have missed it
19:27:02 <CallForJudgement> always important to know whether there's anyone of importance in hexham or not
19:27:13 <CallForJudgement> and if you're in york, there's only a need to figure it out wrt elliott
19:27:37 <Taneb> Can you, as a former student, give me studency advice?
19:28:33 <CallForJudgement> and basically just stayed independent of everyone for like a year, it was pretty boring
19:28:59 <CallForJudgement> this also explains why the early ais523 era of C-INTERCAL was developed on SunOS
19:30:43 <Taneb> solidoodlesuppor, basically, CallForJudgement proved a very small system (that Wolfram was interested in) Turing-complete under the assumption that the tape started as some easily computable sequence
19:31:22 <Taneb> solidoodlesuppor, and some people, Wolfram included, didn't like that very much
19:31:59 <Roujo> Taneb, CallForJudgement: Is there anywhere I could read about this?
19:32:03 <Roujo> Sounds interesting
19:32:17 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram's_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine#Proof_of_universality
19:32:28 <Roujo> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/images/prizeAnnouncement.png
19:32:57 <CallForJudgement> I stayed entirely out of it myself (mostly just watched, or ignored it)
19:33:24 <Vorpal> <CallForJudgement> also for thinking that something that runs in O(2^2^n) might be viable <-- wtf? He thought that was viable? I guess for very very small n
19:33:26 <CallForJudgement> come to think of it, this probably explains why the universality thing has 12 citaitons
19:33:42 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: I don't think he thought that was viable; rather, he just didn't think of checking the computational class at all
19:34:03 <CallForJudgement> there's at least one fallacious proof in ANKOS because he ignored the initialization requirements of the rule 110 proof
19:34:32 <metasepia> A New Kind of Science is a best-selling, controversial book by Stephen Wolfram, published in 2002.
19:36:34 <Taneb> Roujo, as a Canadian, can you give me studency tips?
19:36:48 <Taneb> The state of being a student
19:37:04 <Roujo> I'm not a student anymore, mind you
19:37:17 <Roujo> And even when I was... I tended to not follow proper studency
19:37:28 <Roujo> Didn't do homework, didn't really study... =/
19:37:43 <Taneb> Is your advice gonna be "don't do what I did"?
19:37:43 <Roujo> So I'm not sure any advice of mine would be worth much
19:38:13 <Roujo> Here's my advice: "Never stop being curious."
19:38:21 <Taneb> That is good advice
19:38:46 <Taneb> Vorpal, as someone who probably was a student but I cannot actually remember, can you give me studency tips?
19:38:48 <Roujo> I'm a bit... lazy at times. But this is what saved me.
19:39:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <CallForJudgement> there's at least one fallacious proof in ANKOS because he ignored the initialization requirements of the rule 110 proof
19:39:28 <CallForJudgement> Phantom_Hoover: he produced a turing machine (2,5 I think) which, when run on an empty tape, produces the pattern that rule 110 produces on an empty tape
19:39:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, hm, find friends early who are interested in studies rather than living the student life I guess. If that is what you want.
19:40:12 <CallForJudgement> I found friends eventually, and got on well with them, for academic project purposes
19:40:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, not really sure what kind of tips you want
19:40:21 <CallForJudgement> we went and collaborated to subvert the group project marking system
19:40:44 <Taneb> Vorpal, mainly I'm just a bit nervous because it's a big change for me
19:40:47 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, I'm playing paper & pen roll playing with a couple of them nowdays even after university.
19:41:04 <Roujo> Oh, about being a student... Yeah, friend are important. Surround yourself with people you want to be like, it helps to soak up their interest/intensity like a sponge. =)
19:41:15 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, And we usually meet up a couple of times every year for a dinner or such.
19:41:31 <CallForJudgement> universities aren't like schools where you're stuck with the same few people forever
19:41:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, learn LaTeX if you don't already know it. You might not need it at the start, but it will get invaluable pretty soon
19:41:48 <Roujo> Taneb: Being around people who do studies-related stuff for fun is a good way to make the studies themselves fun
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19:42:56 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, we are using a custom rule system, one of us (not me) is a rule set collector and nerd, so he made his own system instead of using an existing one. It works pretty well from what I can tell.
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19:43:44 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, I had good use of it in the second half of the second year and from that point onwards I would say
19:43:57 <Bike> is CallForJudgement still ais
19:44:10 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: from my point of view it was pointless because everyone else used Word even when we specifically told them not to
19:44:26 <Bike> just wondering if someone else is nicked callforjudgment as a joke before i ask ais a question
19:44:29 <Vorpal> Look! ais523 is evolving. He is turning into a CallForJudgement.
19:44:49 <CallForJudgement> I had to merge nine separate files, eight of which were Word files, in order to write a report
19:44:52 <Vorpal> (sorry I never played much pokemon, I don't remember how the wording goes)
19:45:04 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, ouch
19:45:07 <Bike> i haven't played pokemon in years. you know why? because i'm not a NERRRRRD
19:45:26 <CallForJudgement> the way I did it was to tell people to stop editing for a while, then run the Word-generated HTML through Tidy, then open it in Emacs and run a bunch of regexes on it interactively
19:45:30 <Vorpal> Bike, I only ever played one game, and in an emulator
19:45:38 <Vorpal> I never owned any handheld, or any console
19:45:48 <Bike> i at least played on a Real Console
19:45:48 <CallForJudgement> I qualified for the Pokémon World Championships in 2011 via coming top 8 in the UK
19:45:52 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, holy crap
19:46:07 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: how did you not know this? I think I've mentioned it in-channel before
19:46:08 <Bike> is there anything ais can't do
19:46:17 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, no I meant the Tidy stuff
19:46:25 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, that is what I went "holy crap" at
19:46:26 <Bike> anyway i'm going to ask my question
19:46:38 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: Tidy has a command line option specifically for cleaning up some of the worst excesses of Word
19:46:42 <Bike> which is just, you do cool hardware stuff, i'm in babby's first hardware class, do you have any suggestions for what to attempt to do with my fpga
19:46:58 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, anyway
19:47:07 <CallForJudgement> Bike: well the hello world for an FPGA (or similar hardware things) is to toggle one of the GPIOs between 0 and 1 every second
19:47:12 <Vorpal> I used LyX mostly, and for stuff I was the only person working on
19:47:20 <Bike> mm, i haven't done anything with the clock yet
19:47:23 <Vorpal> I never had to work on stuff with 8 people editing at the same time
19:47:38 <Bike> my most advanced design so far is something that turns off a different ssd based on which button is pressed.
19:47:40 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, thought it was every half second?
19:47:46 <CallForJudgement> Bike: FPGAs suck at asynchronous, you probably want to use the clock
19:47:50 <Bike> Gregor: i read an article on anosmia in birds the other day and thought of you.
19:48:01 <Bike> CallForJudgement: yeah, i meant, i haven't done anything complicated enough to warrant a clock :/
19:48:23 <Bike> i was hoping for my next thing i could have the ssds display the number input on the switches in base four
19:48:23 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, but that is hugely important!
19:48:26 <CallForJudgement> Bike: I feel a bit conflicted here because I had an argument with my PhD supervisor yesterday
19:48:30 <Bike> which requires clock because of the way the ssds are muxed
19:48:33 <Bike> CallForJudgement: oh?
19:48:43 <CallForJudgement> where he was claiming that I should abandon talking about asynchronous hardware because it wouldn't run on our FPGA
19:49:08 <CallForJudgement> (actually, the problem is that all the existing formalisms of delay-insensitive asynchronous hardware suck)
19:49:08 <Bike> well, i'm interested in clockless stuff, but it's a pretty abstract interest given my level of capability
19:49:13 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, there isn't much async hardware though, is there?
19:49:29 <Bike> right except you're, like, a phd candidate, you know more9 things than i do
19:49:56 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, I mean in a computer. Apart from some stuff dealing with races between different clocks and such, and IO, all the computation in a normal computer happens sync mostly, right?
19:49:59 <Bike> right now i just need to do my homework which is "how much current is running through the wire in this circuit" and shit like that. v. basic
19:50:12 <boily> @tell itidus19 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser.
19:50:16 <boily> @tell itidus20 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser.
19:50:17 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: yes; the only even vaguely async stuff is on the buses
19:50:20 <boily> @tell itidus21 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser.
19:50:23 <boily> @tell itidus22 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser.
19:50:33 <boily> I think I have the itiduses covered.
19:50:41 <mnoqy> who all qualifies for quote formatting
19:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oh btw Taneb don't worry, you cannot possibly be worse-prepared for studenting than me and i managed ok
19:50:44 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, right, what about interrupts?
19:50:52 <Bike> mnoqy: only itidi.
19:50:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, this sounds like there are a fair few interesting anecdotes
19:51:08 <CallForJudgement> which is unsurprising, given that computers can't run instructions between clock cycles anyway
19:51:17 <boily> mnoqy: like hungarian soup, I conflagrated them.
19:51:29 <Bike> wow! i seriously forgot my pen. wow. can't do shit now. nobody has a pen in an EE building.
19:51:56 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, arguably they do in the sense that an instruction can be split over several cycles or several instructions can execute in one?
19:52:01 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, don't buses themselves usually have clocks btw?
19:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, not really, i just had very little experience living alone when i left and i adapted pretty quickly to it
19:52:17 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, okay
19:52:24 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, anyway is the benefit of async hardware worth it?
19:52:43 <Bike> personally i'm partly interested in async because ~brainz~
19:52:53 <mnoqy> is this a biologist thing
19:52:59 <Bike> mnoqy: maybe.............
19:53:17 <Vorpal> I seem to remember reading about a MIPS CPU that was async
19:53:20 <CallForJudgement> but the circuits are more complex, meaning that it often isn't worth it in practice
19:53:40 <Bike> there are things in the nervous system that are vaguely clock-like in that they send out periodic signals independently of stimulation, but it's a pretty shallow analogy.
19:53:57 <Bike> this is important for e.g. walking without falling flat on your face and dying.
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19:55:35 <Taneb> I think there's a postgrad at York doing something with chemical computers and async operation
19:55:47 <Bike> chemical computers are cool too.
19:56:02 <Bike> just kind of like weird-ass computers. if only there was a place to congregate, etc
19:56:56 <CallForJudgement> Bike: I'm actually writing a paper about asynchronous circuits atm
19:56:57 <mnoqy> international weird-ass computers conference
19:57:22 <boily> my LaTeX linter is weird. it seems to ignore kmc...
19:57:27 <Bike> don't mock me mnyoqyty
20:01:14 <HackEgo> 726) <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
20:01:29 <Bike> define free will
20:01:35 <mnoqy> define 3d hashlife
20:02:00 <Bike> define implement
20:02:11 <CallForJudgement> Bike: basically that the rules involving that color can change at runtime in response to user input
20:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> this is important for e.g. walking without falling flat on your face and dying.
20:02:29 <Phantom_Hoover> my tutor specialises in walking without falling flat on your face and dying!
20:02:50 <Bike> insects have faces too
20:02:52 <Bike> also that's cool.
20:03:14 <mnoqy> i wish i specialized in walking without falling flat on your face and dying
20:03:36 <Bike> CallForJudgement: well the one hashlife concept works regardless, doesn't it? as long as you maintain a speed of light. you'd just have to mark blocks as hving to be recomputed
20:03:44 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: "ironically, he walks with six canes"
20:04:08 <CallForJudgement> actually some versions of elliottcraft don't have a speed of light, but adding one would make sense
20:04:42 <CallForJudgement> <ais523> Alert character (the one that goes beep when printed)
20:06:13 <Phantom_Hoover> he also has a bunch of arthropods in perspex and model ants in his office
20:07:02 <boily> kmc: ♪ your quotes are ready ♪
20:09:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quode: not found
20:09:43 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: because I'm not yet doing the letter “P”.
20:09:53 <CallForJudgement> wow, Snowflake is my /second/ language that is slightly inspired by my dislike for Java2K
20:09:59 <boily> (and if you're asking about Taneb's being done before you, it's because of atriq.)
20:10:09 <CallForJudgement> actually it's my third if you count Befunge2K, but that was never documented
20:10:36 <CallForJudgement> even though it's literally "Befunge-98 where all instructions except ; have a 50% chance of doing nothing instead"
20:10:45 <boily> CallForJudgement: you are kmc, right?
20:11:09 <boily> the mkdir predicament.
20:13:05 <CallForJudgement> <cpressey> I also guess I also have several other thoughts on the matter, but they are too wide-ranging and not directly relevant, so I will save them for The Manifesto.
20:13:48 <boily> ooooh! another document to latexify! :D
20:14:31 <boily> CallForJudgement: the The Manifesto.
20:15:52 <boily> CallForJudgement: in two parts. 1) cpressey mentionned an obscure Manifesto, that I wish to latexify. 2) http://www.kimmok.com/THE-MANIFESTO-MANIFESTO
20:15:55 <CallForJudgement> huh, apparently atehwa uses an ä in his or her eodermdrome programs
20:16:24 <boily> atehwa: who are you? are you approximative? I like your spurrious diæresification.
20:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> the spec just says 'characters', with absolutely no qualification
20:17:21 <CallForJudgement> bleh, now people who speak languages other than English have an advantage over me in eodermdrome-writing
20:19:18 <CallForJudgement> also according to the books I originally learned the alphabet from, & is a letter
20:20:50 <boily> «éperluette», which means “and by itself, and”. it was the 27th letter.
20:21:44 <CallForJudgement> (also, I remember that in Gödel, Escher, Bach, Hofstadter used ""/«»/»« quotes to distinguish English, French, and German)
20:22:17 <shachaf> «» is perfectly valid for quoting in English.
20:22:28 <boily> yes, that's the proper glyph name in French, but nobody uses it. everyone calls it «et commercial».
20:22:34 <shachaf> I've never seen »« in English, though.
20:25:07 <boily> they don't count as extra letters.
20:27:33 <boily> depends in which context you use «é». In French, it is equivalent to a regular «e» (or è, ê and ë for that matter), just with a small pixelly smudge over it.
20:28:02 <boily> mnoqy: you are nicely quoted. stop bathrooming with sgeo. hand. hth.
20:28:27 <boily> mnoqy: the /topic PDF includes your quotes now.
20:31:52 <nooodl> boily: oops i forgot about sending you that thing... i'll look into it in a bit
20:31:52 <nooodl> for now though: chapter 2 name proposal: The Things of Wisdomme
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20:33:30 <boily> nooodl: doing your quotes!
20:33:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23957
20:34:26 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
20:34:38 <boily> I even used /no+dl/ for your name match.
20:36:59 <mnoqy> wow, good quote nooodl
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20:40:51 <boily> indeed. the linter fears kmc, now that I'm oerjanning.
20:44:20 <shachaf> boily: what, you have duplicate quotes?????
20:45:08 <boily> shachaf: yes? and?
20:48:45 <boily> @tell oerjan you are quoted. peruse the PDF.
20:49:55 <boily> Generic Identity Question: are oklopol and oklofok the same person?
20:51:11 <boily> well, it just happens that neither has quotes. so they can freely be who they are.
20:51:25 <HackEgo> 28) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 30) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list \ 32) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 43) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 53) <oklopol> hmm, this is hard \ 5
20:52:02 <boily> woops. typo on my end, then.
20:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oklorientation: 32 is the only quote there that I think is made up
20:52:49 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: indeed. the okloes have 76 quotes in all.
20:54:28 <boily> and I may have missed some Gregor quotes. aurgh.
20:55:01 <boily> false alarm. I complete Gregor.
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20:59:42 <shachaf> I believe many things that aren't in the quotes.
21:02:48 <boily> oklopol: I mathematically hate you.
21:03:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:03:14 <boily> oh, wait. it's only a polynomial.
21:03:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lastseen: not found
21:03:53 <lambdabot> boily said 15m 8s ago: you are quoted. peruse the PDF.
21:04:55 <HackEgo> 2013-08-28 21:20:53: <oklopol> meaning with, in, by, respectively; i think
21:06:21 <oerjan> oklopol: have you become invisible to scots
21:07:00 <ion> shachaf: I didn’t get far with the poset functor thing. For A : C, F A : D, if i have a Fo : A → F A for the objects and you give me an (A → B), corresponding to a true (A ≤ B), i’m supposed to give you a (F A → F B), corresponding to a true (F A ≤ F B), is this right? I’m not sure i have enough building blocks for that.
21:08:18 <boily> and with that, The Okloes are quoted.
21:08:24 <shachaf> ion: What do you mean by Fo : A → F A?
21:08:29 <boily> time to go retrogaming!
21:08:31 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:08:32 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:09:02 <shachaf> Is that → an arrow in one of the categories or some other thing?
21:11:19 <ion> shachaf: I read somewhere that a functor F : C → D involves F₀ : A → F A for the objects and F₁ : (A → B) → (F A → F B) for the arrows. I think the C → D, A → F A and F₁ : (…) → (…) arrows were supposed to be function arrows. Or something. Did i read something bad or misinterpret it?
21:12:10 <shachaf> OK, sure, as long as it's clear that that's different from the → arrow inside the category (which is just a ≤ relationship).
21:12:29 <CallForJudgement> hmm… I guess my only remaining hope for Snowflake is to get oerjan or Keymaker or someone interested in it
21:12:48 <CallForJudgement> and cry internally at the esocommunity's lack of interest in esolangs
21:12:54 <ion> shachaf: Yes
21:13:03 <shachaf> ion: So a functor F has F₀, which maps each object in C to an object in D, and F₁, which "maps" ≤ relationships.
21:13:26 <shachaf> It's pretty much what you said.
21:13:37 <shachaf> Just a function between posets which is order-preserving.
21:14:18 <shachaf> Which means that if x ≤ y then f(x) ≤ f(y)
21:14:31 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> Is there a name for those monads which are implementable even if bind can call its continuation at most 1 time? <-- i don't know but the STMonadTrans package refers to those without a name.
21:14:35 <shachaf> I.e. a monotonic function.
21:14:40 <shachaf> (Monotonically increasing.)
21:15:26 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo or well, i assume it's essentially the same.
21:19:15 <ion> shachaf: So… am i supposed to be able to make one in general?
21:19:26 <shachaf> What do you mean by "make"?
21:19:53 <shachaf> Let's say we have the poset category N of natural numbers.
21:19:59 <ion> I thought the exercise was to define F₁. So far we only have “type signatures”.
21:20:35 <shachaf> Well, there's at most one arrow between the object F A and F B.
21:20:42 <shachaf> So you just have to show that it exists.
21:22:42 <ion> I’m not sure how to do that.
21:24:11 <shachaf> Well, take any monotonic function from N to N, for example.
21:24:34 <shachaf> You have a "functor" that maps an object x to the object x+1.
21:25:53 <shachaf> Maybe I don't understand what you mean.
21:28:17 <shachaf> The goal was adjunctions or something like that, right?
21:29:19 <ion> I had the false impression that i should find a general definition of F₁ for any F : C → D, but i suppose the definition depends on the specific C and D.
21:30:01 <shachaf> Well, we have the definition of a functor, which is F₀ and F₁ which follow some laws.
21:30:45 <shachaf> (The laws are trivial when you're talking about posets, by the way.)
21:31:37 <shachaf> But when you're specifying some particular functor, you give a specific definition of F₁.
21:31:50 <ion> F₁ id = id; F₁ f ∘ F₁ g = F₁ (f ∘ g); anything else?
21:32:47 <shachaf> Well there's a "type law" of sorts, which is that if f : A -> B then F₁ F : F₀ A -> F₀ B
21:33:08 <shachaf> (Usually people don't bother writing F₀ and F₁, just F. Or, in Haskell, they write fmap instead of F₁.)
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21:35:47 * oerjan wonders what those empty squares are
21:35:53 <oklopol> so if i have two say minimal compact dynamical systems X and Y, is there a name for the following: for any morphism \phi : X \times Y \to X, there's a function \psi : X \to X such that \phi(x, y) = \psi(x) for all x, y
21:36:32 <oklopol> continuous function that commutes with the dynamics
21:36:52 <CallForJudgement> oh, for a moment I thought oerjan was asking what morphisms are in general
21:37:30 <ion> shachaf: Thanks for the explanations. I should start reading Awodey’s book at some point.
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21:37:54 <oerjan> oklopol: by what you write, phi is independent of y
21:37:54 <shachaf> ion: Awodey has some great videos -- a few hours -- that you could watch.
21:38:16 <ion> shachaf: Oh, cool. /me googles
21:38:24 <oklopol> currently i say "X is independent from Y" for this
21:38:32 <shachaf> opm" http://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/summerschool/summer12/curriculum.html
21:38:33 <oklopol> was just wondering if there's a name
21:38:58 <ion> djsvjsg" thanks
21:39:07 <oklopol> it seems like a relatively useful concept for minimal systems; at least it seems to be exactly what is needed for computing the endomorphisms of certain toeplitz subshifts
21:39:53 <ion> Kuolema kuittaa univelat.
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21:46:55 <shachaf> ion: The next step is natural transformations, I guess!
21:50:25 <oerjan> clearly something eerie is going on
21:57:21 <olsner> ion: Death to reset the sleep-deprived?
21:58:37 <ion> Death will pay off the sleep debt
22:04:11 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell oklopol say okokoko a bit in #esoteric so we can `addquote it
22:04:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19632
22:04:51 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
22:05:08 -!- Bike has joined.
22:07:31 <kmc> "i call rule 34 on rule 110"
22:07:55 -!- solidoodlesuppor has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:08:46 <olsner> sure, how hard could it be?
22:10:24 <kmc> right i mean it's turing complete
22:10:59 <olsner> not everyone has the same taste as turing though
22:12:59 <olsner> hmm, I should do something... tomorrow maybe?
22:13:22 <oerjan> tomorrow: procrastinating
22:13:54 <kmc> doing things: overrated? or not?
22:14:40 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN^WWORLDNEWS: http://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1kw1nd/not_a_conspiracy_anymore/cbtdfzh
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22:15:13 <olsner> I saw a "bitcoin" credit card today, so this bitcoin thing must be "getting somewhere"
22:15:26 -!- tromp has joined.
22:16:53 <kmc> `bitcoin' ``credit'' ```card'''
22:16:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bitcoin': not found
22:17:18 <olsner> it may have been a debit card but the distinction is lost on me
22:18:32 <fungot> olsner: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
22:18:34 <kmc> was it actually bitcoin-enabled in some way
22:18:41 <kmc> or did it just like have a bitcoin logo on it
22:19:12 <olsner> mostly it was connected to a bitcoin exchange and you could sell bitcoins to have the balance directly deposited on your card
22:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought bitcoins were useless for up-front transactions
22:19:43 <olsner> fungot: and I know that's just a bit of the ^style list, stop cheating
22:19:43 <fungot> olsner: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these, too
22:20:06 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: how do you mean
22:20:17 <olsner> i, myself, will bring an end to all. everything in readiness for fnord!
22:20:53 <kmc> fnorderdämmerung
22:21:20 <olsner> die erdämmerung der fnord
22:22:11 <shachaf> kmc: doing things can be nice but not doing things has its own charm
22:22:42 <kmc> does playing mölkky count as doing things or no
22:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, it has a long-ish transaction delay or something?
22:23:09 <kmc> a lot of physical merchants seem to not care though
22:23:48 <kmc> maybe they use a transaction processor that converts BTC immediately into bilderberg conspiracy fiat currency, and guarantees them against fraud (like cc processors do)
22:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> you buy a croissant, eat it, then cancel the transaction before it goes through>
22:24:45 <olsner> going via "bilderberg conspiracy fiat currency" sounds quite reliable
22:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> btw on the topic of the bilderbergs i would like to once again recommend THEM: adventures with extremists
22:25:55 <olsner> and are you sure they guarantee *against* fraud, rather than e.g. guaranteeing fraud? (I also idly wonder which one of those is more likely to give your money back)
22:26:06 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: the risk is double spend
22:26:21 <kmc> cancel i guess would mean you double spend also by sending it to yrself
22:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> so what, you override the earlier transaction with a second one that sends the money elsewhere?
22:27:56 <Fiora> I think the jist is you send two transactions out at once, and hope the other one gets included in the block chain?
22:28:24 <olsner> let me tell you exactly how it works
22:29:09 <kmc> or maybe you dont care which one gets included
22:29:12 <kmc> but you got two things
22:29:16 <kmc> for the price of one
22:29:30 <Fiora> I don't think a miner will accept two transactions coming from the same money?
22:29:32 <Fiora> like, they'll reject it
22:31:08 <kmc> so merkhants are advised to wait for the netwrk to agree on the transxn
22:31:35 <kmc> which is not a discrete thing but the longer you wait, the less likely it will change its mind
22:31:59 <kmc> (it is discrete in units of blocks, which take avg 10 min to make)
22:32:29 <kmc> but most people dont wanna wait 10 min for a croissont much less 30
22:32:38 <kmc> so your btc bakery must take this risk
22:32:43 <kmc> or pay someone else to assume the risk
22:32:57 <kmc> in which case that third party can also run an instantaneous change to money that is actually useful to your business
22:33:21 <kmc> you know because your landlord and croissont supplier probably don't accept bitcoin (dupes of the global banker hegemony that they are)
22:33:26 <HackEgo> echo "$@" > /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.;
22:33:57 <oerjan> no complaints, how nice.
22:35:05 <kmc> painting nails
22:35:25 <Fiora> I think that's neither
22:35:28 <shachaf> `run ln -s /dev/null complaints
22:35:31 <Fiora> unless he's done smoething very very wrong with acetone
22:35:34 <kmc> dronk on ethyl acetate fumes
22:35:58 <shachaf> `run echo 'wc -l complaints' > bin/complaints; chmod +x bin/complaints
22:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, oh good (i just asked in case your hands were too badly injured to alert the emergency services)
22:38:16 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's#/dev/null#complaints#' bin/complain
22:38:19 <kmc> in which case you would call for me 0818 999 88911 9119725 3
22:38:29 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/>/>>/' bin/complain
22:38:38 <kmc> i think these days the preferred way to alert the police is twitter
22:38:59 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/;$//' bin/complain
22:39:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think that will handle the complaits already made. i suggest modifying the `list method.
22:39:23 <shachaf> It handles them very well.
22:39:43 <HackEgo> echo "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
22:39:59 <shachaf> oerjan: Alternatively: I suggest that you file that as a complaint.
22:40:25 <shachaf> `complain oerjan won't do his complaint duty
22:40:26 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
22:41:43 <oerjan> `run echo 'See misspellings of croissant' >wisdom/'croissont supplier'
22:52:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v myndzi.
22:52:55 <oerjan> can't have HackEgo and myndzi have different length flags. or wait...
22:53:20 <oerjan> it'll be broken anyway.
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22:59:26 <shachaf> if myndzi has voice, i demand voice! \o/
23:03:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v myndzi.
23:03:37 <oerjan> and we can't have _that_.
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23:06:08 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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23:09:05 <oerjan> <elliott> boily: yes <-- i believe the " , please" makes your answer incorrect unless you actually do it
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23:10:10 <shachaf> Even if you use it zzo38-style?
23:11:51 <HackEgo> 2011-01-04.txt:20:30:31: <zzo38> cheater99: Hay you! Stop cheating, please!
23:11:51 <HackEgo> 2011-04-18.txt:04:32:11: <zzo38> Maybe submit the report and then they can correct it please.
23:12:39 <HackEgo> 2011-10-09.txt:04:06:50: <zzo38> Unicode works for some things, but you should not always use it, please.
23:12:39 <HackEgo> 2013-03-12.txt:06:10:35: <zzo38> If you can't use geosynchronous orbits for triangulation, then it would be the idea that if you have satellites that need triangulation, remember to don't make them geosynchronous, please.
23:12:40 <HackEgo> 2011-04-10.txt:01:56:49: <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid, please.
23:13:01 <oerjan> shachaf: I THINK YOUR THEORY IS BADLY SUPPORTED
23:13:29 <HackEgo> 2011-03-13.txt:05:29:13: <zzo38> oerjan: Can you ask elliott to correct it please?
23:13:29 <HackEgo> 2010-04-04.txt:07:17:02: <zzo38> Quadrescence: Why do you think that, please?
23:13:30 <HackEgo> 2011-12-20.txt:22:11:21: <zzo38> Not exactly what it does? Can you elaborate on that please?
23:13:52 <HackEgo> 2012-03-02.txt:08:08:11: <zzo38> Do you have better idea please?
23:13:53 <HackEgo> 2013-03-30.txt:03:20:12: <zzo38> pikhq: Does it depend on how it is generated? Can you give details please?
23:14:32 <oerjan> shachaf: give up already. or it least use `pastelogs
23:14:45 <shachaf> `pastelogs zzo38>.* please\?$
23:15:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24912
23:15:13 <Bike> quadrescence used to be in here?
23:15:21 <shachaf> `pastelogs zzo38>.* please.?$
23:15:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20462
23:15:47 <shachaf> Bike: Do you know them from #lisp?
23:15:54 <Bike> and a few other places, yes
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23:36:51 <ion> shachaf: Let me verify something: in the category of matrices with multiplication, are the objects natural numbers corresponding to matrix dimensions?
23:37:06 <ion> Ok, thanks
23:37:09 <Sgeo> WHO was bathrooming with me?!?!?
23:37:36 <shachaf> ion: There's another way to look at that category: The objects are R^n for natural numbers n, and the arrows are linear maps.
23:39:59 <ion> sgeo: Why would the World Health Organization do that?
23:40:34 <ion> shachaf: Hmm, interesting.
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00:05:49 <Sgeo> @messages-public
00:05:52 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
00:05:59 <Sgeo> @list messages
00:06:00 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages
00:06:04 <Sgeo> @messages-loud
00:06:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 51m 33s ago: <Sgeo> Is there a name for those monads which are implementable even if bind can call its continuation at most 1 time? <-- i don't know but the STMonadTrans package
00:06:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 50m 38s ago: or well, i assume it's essentially the same.
00:06:45 <kmc> if i had to make up a name i would call them affine monads
00:06:54 <kmc> that's probably a) a confusing name b) already something else
00:07:03 <Bike> nonlinear monads
00:07:23 <Sgeo> The reason I'm interested is because instead of passing in a real continuation, you could pass in, say, a function that resumes a coroutine
00:07:56 <oerjan> Bike: linear would be even stronger than this, you would have to use it _exactly_ once.
00:07:57 <shachaf> isn't that related to that one thing oleg talks about
00:08:19 <Sgeo> So languages that have first-class coroutines but not first-class continuations can have nice syntax based on that for those monads, if not all monads
00:08:39 <Sgeo> Although in imperative languages most of those monads probably aren't that interesting, sadly
00:08:57 <Sgeo> And the interesting ones like list can't do the coroutine thing
00:09:15 <shachaf> can you describe this property in terms of fmap/join/return
00:10:43 <shachaf> is it just a property of fmap
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00:31:30 <lambdabot> boily said 2d 5h 9m 16s ago: “Automynorcagrammatical” what the fungot... I like that one.
00:32:33 <shachaf> (not that i object to hugz!!)
00:33:11 <shachaf> maybe you can come visit with edwardk next month
00:33:19 <copumpkin> he giving another talk or something?
00:34:39 <shachaf> you could come play mölkky with me and kmc!
00:35:49 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to valleypumpkin.
00:39:52 <valleypumpkin> and I'm not lying: it really isn't going to eat itself
00:40:11 <shachaf> You can bring it here with you.
00:41:03 <shachaf> i'll just arrange some marmite for you over here
00:41:13 <shachaf> and someone to destroy the old jar
00:41:21 <shachaf> it'll be just like marmite teleportation
00:41:25 <shachaf> I won't be going to ICFP. :-(
00:41:26 <oerjan> are you _sure_ marmite doesn't eat itself, i've heard disturbing things...
00:41:44 <shachaf> valleypumpkin: no, it'd be extensionally equal
00:42:42 <valleypumpkin> perhaps I shouldn't be misquoting avril on the intarwebz
00:44:09 <shachaf> valleypumpkin: i'm sure you want to play mölkky
00:44:27 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6lkky
00:44:36 <shachaf> kmc can confirm that it's good
00:47:46 <Sgeo> http://paste.tclers.tk/2729
00:50:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: is 4 2 as i s7 rite
00:52:19 <oerjan> `learn Marmite is a group mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
00:54:20 <oerjan> fungot: wait, what do you know about this.
00:54:21 <fungot> oerjan: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! i'll be right.) still don't cut, and among the rafters. withel regarded it without the cod title on it hard to fiqure out what going, tough one. if we solve it,...
00:55:50 <kmc> is copumpkin in The Valley
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01:14:18 -!- valleypumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
01:18:53 <kmc> we should invent a way to play mölkky over the internet
01:19:00 <kmc> build some kind of mölkky-bot
01:19:21 <shachaf> but first you should make your own mölkky
01:36:00 * oerjan swats CallForJudgement for not knowing the alphabet -----###
01:38:43 * shachaf swaps oerjan for a good overlord
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02:08:44 <HackEgo> bash: tclsh: command not found
02:11:17 <Sgeo> Can I punch someone? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18649855/tcl-how-substitution-occures-in-if-statement/18651365#18651365
02:20:14 <Bike> «Sorry, but int tcl there is no difference between the string "0" and the value 0.» why, god
02:20:35 <CallForJudgement> Bike: there isn't in Perl either, it's not that much of a problem
02:20:47 <CallForJudgement> because strings and ints have entirely different operators for dealing with them
02:21:03 <CallForJudgement> so if you use + it's interpreted as an int, and if you use . (string concatenation) it's interpreted as a string
02:23:27 <Sgeo> Bike: Do you actually know any Tcl?
02:23:31 <oerjan> CallForJudgement: well i think your insistence that o is before n in the alphabet is very unconventional.
02:23:58 <Sgeo> It's an interesting language in some ways. Not without its flaws, but still interesting
02:24:08 <CallForJudgement> Bike: if you really want something to complain at, it's that there's no distinction between strings and subroutines
02:24:55 <Sgeo> CallForJudgement: you mean between strings and code? Because if I store an argument and body in foo, I can't just call $foo. Wish I could
02:26:18 <Sgeo> CallForJudgement: the eval thing is really what interests me about Tcl, but I'd prefer an eval that operates on stuff that has more information than strings do
02:26:25 <Sgeo> e.g. the way Rebol does things
02:26:37 <Bike> some kind of ""symbol"" eh
02:27:14 <Bike> anyway, does anyone know a verilog synthesisy thing i can use that isn't the heap i'm supposed to use for class
02:27:27 <Sgeo> Because constructing and rearranging compiled code from scratch is difficult?
02:27:34 <Bike> the build report has a table of contents. it goes on for pages
02:27:51 <Bike> for about... 15 lines
02:28:12 <CallForJudgement> Bike: sadly, verilog/VHDL synthesizers tend to be massively target-specific
02:28:31 <CallForJudgement> there's Icarus Verilog, which is pretty good and non-sucky, but it needs plugins to target specific hardware
02:28:56 <Bike> compile to vhdl? aren't vhdl and verilog on the same level
02:29:43 <CallForJudgement> but it's more or less all you can do unless you have something lower-level to compile to
02:29:54 <CallForJudgement> and all the lower-level languages are FPGA-specific and often proprietary
02:30:02 <CallForJudgement> well, they're like machine code, only nobody will tell you what it means
02:30:04 <Sgeo> CallForJudgement: imagine Tcl with lexical scope
02:30:10 <Bike> i'm wondering if i could figure out how the stupid thing works and have my own tools
02:30:15 <Bike> but... yeah, the bitfiles look pretty undocumented
02:30:50 <CallForJudgement> so far, I've tried Altera and Xilinx, and concluded that Xilinx's development tools suck so badly we can't use them at all
02:30:54 <Bike> it's a semi-local company, i think. mostly educational stuff.
02:31:00 <Bike> xilinx is the development tool i'm using!
02:31:04 <CallForJudgement> whereas Altera's are quirky and have a bad UI, but at least it works
02:31:24 <Bike> i mean, i got it working, and that's about all i can about it.
02:31:27 <CallForJudgement> until I found a way to avoid having to do it, the worst part was port assignment
02:31:29 <Bike> positively, i mean.
02:31:31 <oerjan> CallForJudgement: has someone started a rumor that it's because the lower-level languages all have CIA/NSA backdoors yet?
02:31:55 <CallForJudgement> basically, you have ports in your code, and you want to assign them to ports on the actual chip
02:32:09 <CallForJudgement> to do this, you have to use a weird editor thing that lets you select the ports from each side from drop-downs
02:32:20 <Bike> oh, yeah, that's annoying.
02:32:23 <CallForJudgement> there are like 200 possibilities for the port on the chip, and they're in one drop-down box
02:32:31 <Bike> er, wait. no, i just wrote a ucf and that worked.
02:32:33 <CallForJudgement> and you have to select via the mouse, after screenfuls of scrolling
02:32:50 <Bike> is ucf a xilinx-specific thing. please say no
02:32:50 <CallForJudgement> the keyboard doesn't help because they're all "PORT_whatever" and it only autocompletes the first character
02:33:02 <CallForJudgement> Bike: I'm not sure; it doesn't work on the Altera tools, or else I'd use it :(
02:33:09 <CallForJudgement> but this could be xilinx being specific or altera being ignorant
02:33:26 <Bike> looks pretty xilinx-specific from google. god damn.
02:33:31 <CallForJudgement> the problem with xilinx wasn't the port assignment UI (UCF is fine), but the facts that the ports were all undocumented
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02:33:44 <CallForJudgement> and after a week of searching we couldn't find enough documentation to figure out which ports to assign
02:33:50 <Bike> my professor is related to the company that made the board. maybe i can, like, blackmail him into telling me the bitfile format.
02:33:52 <CallForJudgement> including contacting actual people who worked for xilinx and asking
02:33:54 <zzo38> Why do you even need some GUI and other specific stuff; can't they make some generic FPGA?
02:34:09 <Bike> CallForJudgement: wait, wait, i'm confused. the ports are on the hardware, yes?
02:34:12 <CallForJudgement> zzo38: they probably could, but they don't because it would cut into their margins
02:34:28 <Bike> zzo38: probably because there hasn't been nearly as big an open hardware as open software movement.
02:34:37 <CallForJudgement> because there are hundreds of pins and so you can't connect to them by hand, so you need to use a presoldered board
02:34:40 <Bike> CallForJudgement: i mean, it's the board manufacturer that should be documenting the ports, not xilinx?
02:34:43 <CallForJudgement> and xilinx wouldn't give documentation as to what pin connected to what
02:35:12 <CallForJudgement> anyway, their only officially supported way to use the board was to use a closed-source addon module with a crazy configuration wizard
02:35:15 <Bike> that sucks, from digilent i got actual schematics, in addition to the manual
02:35:28 <CallForJudgement> that went and synthesized a CPU with a custom bus pattern for communicating with the rest of your circuit onto the FPGA
02:35:35 <Bike> (i'm still not sure which port is the PCM but whatever)
02:35:38 <Bike> CallForJudgement: jesus christ.
02:35:48 <CallForJudgement> so now we can't just GPIO, we have to deal with all this abstraction nonsense
02:36:45 <Bike> like, i don't know, am i doing this weird? what i do is write some verilog, put it in xilinx's stupid "project" crap, hit build, wait five minutes, a bitfile comes out, and then i use a digilent thing (outside of xilinx) to program the fpga with the bitfile.
02:37:25 <Bike> so i can, like, just have some bitfiles around and use digilent's nice commandline interface to put them on the board, without launching xilinx destroyer of worlds
02:38:04 <CallForJudgement> it was quite common for me to have dinner for my supervisor while waiting for things to compile
02:38:06 <Bike> are you serious.
02:38:36 <CallForJudgement> specifically, the section "Compiling for synthesis, on an already supported architecture"
02:38:50 <Bike> this is your thing, right?
02:39:07 <CallForJudgement> but most of that section is about setting up the Altera tools correctly
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02:39:28 <zzo38> I think if they made a generic open source FPGA, they could compete with the other FPGA companies successfully
02:40:07 <Bike> "For the libraries provided with the compiler, use the following configuration: disable all the checkbox options apart from Clock, Button x 4, 7-Segment x 8, Switch x 18, and leave all the other options at their defaults.
02:40:11 <CallForJudgement> specifically, the workflow now is that we get the Altera-provided tools to create a project
02:40:29 <CallForJudgement> and then get our own compiler to overwrite carefully chosen parts of it with our own provided files
02:40:40 <Bike> zzo38: wouldn't the main problem be that custom ICs don't come cheap (disclaimer i know shit-all about fpga)
02:40:52 <Bike> CallForJudgement: this is scary.
02:41:03 <zzo38> Bike: Yes I know it can be expensive
02:41:06 <CallForJudgement> because you just specify a path to the project as an argument to the compiler
02:41:22 <Bike> fuck, maybe i'll just ask my professor about this
02:41:28 <CallForJudgement> OTOH, it holds a possibly unique position in the history of hardware synthesis
02:41:30 <Bike> i mean he liked xilinx but god this is silly
02:41:42 <CallForJudgement> we have, on record, someone quote as saying that they followed the instructions and it worked first time
02:41:49 <Bike> somehow i doubt i can convince a professional that this is silly, but still!!
02:42:00 <Bike> CallForJudgement: "had to put 'em through a polygraph just to be sure"
02:42:27 <zzo38> But I know I would buy it, and I think there are other people that would buy it too.
02:42:53 <CallForJudgement> zzo38: the problem is that the business model used by FPGA manufacturers at the moment is to make the FPGAs cheaply (so that they can be placed in products), then charge very large amounts for the development tools
02:42:55 <Bike> zzo38: well, you need capital to start with.
02:43:07 <Bike> and... yeah, lots of resistance here.
02:43:22 <CallForJudgement> knowing that people will never be able to program them on their own
02:43:40 <Bike> xilinx has a free thing i'm using.
02:43:47 <Bike> i doubt i could do anything hardcore with it, but.
02:43:53 <Bike> oh, and i still had to do some dumb "licensing" thing.
02:44:04 <CallForJudgement> basically because if you can credibly say "we're doing research into a new way to compile programs onto FPGAs", they both care about it working with their product
02:44:04 <zzo38> Do they earn or lose money on FPGA sales?
02:45:04 <Bike> well, lessee. the cheapest board usable with my class is fifty bucks for students, and eighty nine otherwise
02:45:28 <Bike> Oh, right. The boards are Digilent but built around a Xilinx FPGA.
02:45:31 <Bike> i am not good at this, sorry.
02:46:21 <CallForJudgement> Bike: Diligent have probably found a gap in the market: buy other people's FPGAs, make development boards for them that aren't a nightmare to program
02:46:44 <CallForJudgement> it sometimes takes us like an hour just to get the cable connected correctly between the computer and FPGA
02:46:56 <Bike> digilent is education bent, so that would definitely make sense
02:47:25 <Bike> i think they provide some kind of library api i should probably look at
02:48:26 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: That may be the business model, but if others make it the other business model (don't provide development tools at all; only documentation), then they can compete with the others seriously rather than just being another minor FPGA manufacturer.
02:48:31 <Bike> "By accepting this license, you agree that you will not modify, adapt, decompile, reverse engineer, translate, or otherwise attempt to discover the source code for the Software" well, time to void a warranty
02:49:46 <Bike> CallForJudgement: anyway, the other frustration right now is that during build xilinx lists some "command lines" but i don't even know where the actual programs are, which would be nice because i could use the same programs but from emacs or something
02:50:31 <Bike> for god's sake.
02:50:49 <zzo38> And then provide volume discounts instead of making the chips less expensive and the software really expensive.
02:51:08 <CallForJudgement> I hope not, but I'm horrified enough at the rest of things that it seems possible
02:51:28 <Bike> you're making me really glad i'm not interested in this field as a thing on its own
02:52:22 <CallForJudgement> and I'm making me glad that I get to use Verilog/VHDL as a compiler output target
02:52:34 <CallForJudgement> rather than having to deal with the horrors of the abstraction levels below
02:53:34 <Bike> what's $_ and $# in shell?
02:53:35 <CallForJudgement> also that I can live mostly on simulator, except when we badly need nonzero performance
02:54:32 <Bike> hrm, well this script is using $_ for something.
02:54:54 <zzo38> There are some things I don't like about Verilog/VHDL which is why I was making some of my own ideas and called it "HWPL". One difference from Verilog is that numbers are given in binary by default instead of decimal (you need a prefix for decimal or hex); another is that there is only one I/O port which is a bit vector (and a bit vector can contain some inputs, some outputs, some analog, etc) but any number of macro parameters
02:55:16 <zzo38> Since I wanted to think of what features are better for hardware programming language rather than software programming
02:55:21 <Bike> CallForJudgement: i mean, it doesn't assign it or anything.
02:55:53 <Bike> verilog constants have been annoying me. is something like {28{1'b1}} for 28 1s considered kosher?
02:56:48 <zzo38> Bike: I know there are those things, and other things
02:56:54 <CallForJudgement> then I tried to assign to _, ran it again, got the null string
02:57:02 <Bike> i ran it in my shell and got "--color=auto".
02:57:08 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: What is your opinion of feature of hardware programming languages?
02:57:24 <Bike> zzo38: "kosher" as in "is this bad programming style only a noob like me would like"
02:58:12 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know if it is considered kosher but I wouldn't expect it to matter
02:58:28 <Bike> this does `readlink -f ${$_}`
02:58:33 <Bike> zzo38: i mean, is this considered readable
02:58:34 <CallForJudgement> the Verilog you have there looks like a reasonable translation of it
02:58:57 <Bike> CallForJudgement: how is vhdl? some of the example files use it and it looks more ... i dunno really
02:59:19 <zzo38> Bike: To me it is probably the most readable way as far as I can tell
02:59:22 <CallForJudgement> Bike: apparently, the design goal for VHDL was explicitly "write a hardware description language that is as similar to ADA as possible"
02:59:49 <CallForJudgement> (the language is actually called Ada, but I think VHDL's devs were addicted to allcaps)
02:59:50 <zzo38> Are there better hardware programming languages?
02:59:53 <Bike> CallForJudgement: um... i don't know what to think about that.
03:00:33 <CallForJudgement> Bike: think declarations that are typically more verbose than the actual definitions, and a very high level of pedantry and accuracy
03:00:43 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: I looked and think that is worse for hardware; I mean one that is very close to hardware rather than having features of software programming
03:00:47 <Bike> my professor basically said "most people use verilog, some people use vhdl, a few dipshits use schematics, and there are some other languages who cares"
03:00:48 <CallForJudgement> but which also makes it very hard to make a typo that isn't caught by the compiler
03:00:57 <Bike> CallForJudgement: hm hm hm.
03:01:22 <CallForJudgement> meanwhile, if you make a typo in Verilog, the code will probably still compile and even run
03:01:38 <Bike> yes that's been pissing me off
03:02:30 <zzo38> One thing I don't really like in Verilog is how you need multiple I/O ports instead of just putting it all in one vector, and how calling a module requires the call to have a name
03:02:40 <CallForJudgement> I prefer VHDL, maybe because I know it and I don't like Verilog
03:02:48 <Bike> i should get figuring how to make submodules.
03:02:50 <CallForJudgement> zzo38: oh, the latter one annoyed me too, until I understood why it is
03:03:17 <zzo38> I did think of that, but I still think it is not a good idea
03:03:22 <CallForJudgement> having tens of thousands of wires you have to search through is bad enough
03:03:39 <zzo38> Or at least make it optional
03:03:42 <Bike> zzo38: er, like, rather than having "input [4:0] btn, input [7:0] sw" and so on you just have a single input bus?
03:04:17 <CallForJudgement> I had this discussion a while back; zzo38 wants a feature that's interesting, but mostly specific to his usecase
03:04:27 <zzo38> Bike: I mean just a single I/O vector; all inputs and outputs and combined in/out and analog and all that stuff would be part of one vector, and then the parts can be given names
03:04:40 <Bike> that seems weird.
03:04:52 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: No it isn't specific to usecase, really; actually I think it is better feature for hardware programming in general
03:05:31 <CallForJudgement> and especially, I don't want to bitshift half a variable on top of one variable, and a different half on top of another
03:05:45 <CallForJudgement> it'd be more useful to be able to route all the bits to signals of my choice individually
03:05:56 <Sgeo> zzo38: I wonder what you think of Tcl
03:06:02 <CallForJudgement> but that's what the "assign" statement of Verilog and the "<=" statement of VHDL already do
03:06:24 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: Well, I can give example of what I want in terms of some code of the experimental "HWPL" I made up, it might be something like:
03:07:39 <Bike> continuing my shell questions, what does «. "$sfn" "$d"» do?
03:08:32 <zzo38> MODULE !MAIN() {.THIS,.THAT} BEGIN WIRE .THIS[7:0]; REG .THAT[7:0]; CONNECT .THIS TO .THAT; END; MODULE !MAIN2() {.ALL} BEGIN WIRE .ALL[15:0]; !MAIN() .ALL; END;
03:08:57 <zzo38> You would need # before the 7 and 15 though
03:09:10 <zzo38> To indicate they are decimal numbers rather than keywords
03:09:14 <CallForJudgement> Bike: it's basically equivalent to «sh "$sfn" "$d"» except more efficient
03:09:23 <CallForJudgement> because it uses the shell that's already running rather than starting a new one
03:09:27 <shachaf> CallForJudgement: Why the new nick?
03:09:34 <Bike> oh, ok, that makes sense
03:09:54 <Bike> been wondering what thisfile does and it turns out it runs a bunch of crap
03:09:57 <Bike> who saw that coming
03:10:59 <zzo38> Or even something like: WIRE .THIS[#7:0]; REG .THAT[#7:0]; CONNECT {.THIS[#7:#4],.THAT[#7:#4]} TO {.THAT[#3:0],.THIS[#3:0]} WHEN &{.THAT[#2],.THAT[#4],.THAT[#6]};
03:11:12 <zzo38> If you know what kind of things I am meaning by that?
03:11:53 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: Do you see what some of my ideas are now?
03:12:00 <Bike> okay, this shell file says the xilinx stuff won't work if some environment variable related to the linker is set.
03:12:11 <Bike> getting more and more terrified
03:12:12 <CallForJudgement> it's not like the variable gets disconnected when the condition's fase
03:12:40 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: What is it then?
03:12:48 <Bike> well now i'm terrifieder
03:13:08 <CallForJudgement> zzo38: well in VHDL, you're supposed to use a when … when … else chain so that the signal always has a value
03:13:27 <CallForJudgement> unless you're assigning in a process (i.e. at a clock edge), in which case you use "if" not "when"
03:13:52 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: OK, I understand that, but what if one pin is used sometimes for input and sometimes for output? Sometimes there will not have a signal.
03:13:53 <Bike> lol holy shit this thing fucks up $PATH
03:14:24 <CallForJudgement> zzo38: you still have to assign it a value, but you assign it "Z" as the output while it's inputting
03:14:34 <zzo38> O, that's how it works.
03:15:57 <Bike> aha, i have found the actually run programs!
03:16:21 <CallForJudgement> here, have an line from Verity's standard library with variables anonymized (mostly because their names are horrific): assign v = (L_ENABLE == `A)? L : {8{1'bz}};
03:16:31 <zzo38> I was thinking to make it the value of a WIRE is automatically Z by default and of a REG is automatically X by default; if you have multiple values connected to something at the same time then it is bus conflict and might damage the hardware.
03:17:09 <CallForJudgement> zzo38: REG is X by default on all systems, which is really annoying
03:17:18 <CallForJudgement> because you simulate the reset, but the reset takes some time to occur
03:17:26 <CallForJudgement> and typically you don't reset the output of arithmetic operations, just the inputs
03:17:50 <Bike> hm, the synthesizer program is 20K. this does not bode well at all, no no no.
03:17:56 <CallForJudgement> a special case of X that's used to allow distinguishing between X-due-to-uninitialized and X-due-to-conflict
03:18:18 <Bike> nah, it's an elf
03:18:40 <CallForJudgement> (note: I could actually believe that it would be an elf even on Windows)
03:18:51 <Bike> i'm wondering if this is just a wrapper around a cygwin call
03:18:56 <Bike> thanks for planting the seeds of doubt!!
03:18:59 <CallForJudgement> so anyway, you can't possibly reset the system fast enough to not get warnings about doing arithmetic on U
03:19:38 <CallForJudgement> without adding a bunch of extra circuitry (that ends up in the compiled hardware) purely for the purpose of suppressing the warnings
03:20:04 <CallForJudgement> the simulator I use (GHDL, which is really ancient at this point) actually has a --ieee-warnings=disable-at-0 for this purpose
03:20:42 <Bike> i think i'm starting to understand why build takes five minutes.
03:21:35 <CallForJudgement> most likely you're using really lax time constraints (i.e. slow clock) and only utilizing a small part of the board
03:21:46 <CallForJudgement> so it can just place the various components down pretty much at random and it still works
03:21:57 <CallForJudgement> when your utilization goes up, placing/routing becomes really really difficult
03:22:11 <CallForJudgement> they basically try to do it with evolutionary algorithms, which is far from ieal
03:22:18 <Bike> yeah, i get that, but i think a lot of the timing is startup shit, i mea.
03:22:36 <Bike> like, it takes five minutes even if it's a module consisting of "assign led = sw;"
03:23:13 <zzo38> Other ideas I have includes such things as a MORTON built-in acting like INTERCAL's bit interleave operator; SELECT acting like INTERCAL's select although the right operand has to be a static value (the left can be static or dynamic, and that becomes also the type of the result), and some others
03:23:27 <CallForJudgement> zzo38: meh, SELECT is boring, HOKEY/COKEY is a lot more interesting
03:23:29 <Bike> CallForJudgement: no warnings, but lots of messages about initializing things to 85°C
03:23:58 <CallForJudgement> I get warnings about things like clocks appearing to be clocks
03:24:16 <zzo38> So something like SELECT(10XZ,#5) is 0Z
03:24:19 <CallForJudgement> or that it went and optimized a component into two different components then back to one
03:24:30 <CallForJudgement> which is a serious warning because one of the components seemed to be useless
03:24:42 <CallForJudgement> or that I haven't carefully put time constraints on every single part of the program
03:24:54 <CallForJudgement> zzo38: also, SELECT as a primitive is quite pointless, it works better as a library function
03:24:58 <Bike> yeah my favorite warning so far is that i set a register wrong, so it said it optimized out a flop
03:25:05 <Bike> and that triggered optimizing out a flop for the next highest bit
03:25:12 <Bike> so i got a warning for every bit of the register.
03:25:21 <CallForJudgement> especially because different selects might need different timing properties
03:25:28 <CallForJudgement> it's like multiplication being a primitive in VHDL and Verilog
03:25:38 <zzo38> CallForJudgement Maybe these things could be, if there is the way to implement it, I suppose; it would help
03:25:45 <CallForJudgement> because a single-cycle multiply is going to take up a huge amount of silicon no matter what
03:26:01 <Bike> yeah i was surprised that addition is primitive in verilog, even
03:26:03 <zzo38> Still I would have in HWPL, the arithmetic operators are static only and cannot be used with dynamic operands
03:26:03 <CallForJudgement> and if you're trying to save silicon by doing it in multiple cycles, now you need a library module, not a primitive
03:26:04 <Bike> what's going on there?
03:26:19 <Bike> yeah but like, why
03:26:27 <Bike> it's kind of convenient but it seems like it would be library
03:26:32 <zzo38> And there still is timing specifications allowed on all expressions and commands though, with minimum, typical, and maximum
03:26:47 <CallForJudgement> Bike: partly it's for compile-time array indexing and the like, I guess
03:26:59 <Bike> i was just using it for a counter incrementing every clockk
03:27:13 <CallForJudgement> one of my highest coursework marks ever was on a project for writing a parallel sort in VHDL
03:27:24 <Bike> actually i might as well ask about semantics; is the addition wraparound?
03:27:36 <CallForJudgement> now, VHDL has an obvious syntax for recursion, but attempting to use it drives most compilers into an infinite loop or crashes them
03:27:56 <CallForJudgement> thus, I had to write a recursive module instantiation entirely with for-generate loops
03:28:23 <CallForJudgement> which I did via putting all the signals into one large vector and doing crazy maths to get everything joined up together
03:28:40 <CallForJudgement> actually multiplication is the most interesting, because it could be signed or unsigned
03:28:47 <CallForJudgement> and in VHDL, which it is depends on which libraries you import
03:28:56 <Bike> amazing stuff.
03:29:03 <CallForJudgement> you have a choice of three: one which makes all arithmetic signed, one where it's unsigned, and one where you use explicit casts to signed or unsigned
03:29:23 <Bike> "_ZN4Port10ExecLoader4Util17VCRunTimeDLLCheckEbPKc" starting to regret this
03:29:56 <Bike> yeah, i mean, what it's referring to.
03:30:03 <Bike> there's lots of "ExecLoader" in these strings.
03:30:09 <Bike> also, this is a stripped file.
03:30:42 <CallForJudgement> I think I came to the conclusion that Xilinx doesn't really care about the distinction between Linux and Windows
03:30:48 <Bike> "/proc/%d/exe" ummmm
03:30:51 <CallForJudgement> and just tries to find some sort of way to make things work anyway
03:31:06 <Bike> i found a folder called "java". i'm really, really hoping it just uses java.
03:31:27 <CallForJudgement> Bike: you probably weren't here when I said this, but for a microcontroller, the company released a custom compiler for it with an n day free trial
03:31:49 <CallForJudgement> now, source code was available, they were technically in compliance with the GPL
03:32:09 <CallForJudgement> but also I was technically in compliance with the license (the GPL) when I looked at the source to see how the n day free trial lockout worked
03:32:29 <Bike> this is probably the best argument for the GPL i've ever heard :p
03:32:49 <CallForJudgement> actually, I didn't recompile, that would have been a mess; rather, it turned out to communicate with a license-checking executable via fork/exec and checking the exit code
03:33:52 <zzo38> The GPL certainly allows such things like that to happen; if you don't want to pay for the full version then you can fix it yourself after every new version that is released
03:34:20 <Bike> OK, so, my horror is mounting.
03:34:41 <Bike> The bin/lin directory is full of programs. stuff that gets run on the "command line" by the GUI, like the layouter and whatever.
03:34:52 <Bike> And some other stuff like "qt3config"
03:34:53 <CallForJudgement> however, it's finished past the point where most people give up playing
03:35:00 <Bike> oh, and "xilperl".
03:35:17 <Bike> anyway, all of these programs
03:35:26 <Bike> and have the same sorts of stuff in strings
03:35:33 <Bike> i'm freakin out!!
03:35:59 <CallForJudgement> Perl has lots of introspection on the actual executable that's running
03:36:12 <Bike> "This is perl, v5.8.8 built for i686-linux Modified to use XILPERL* instead of PERL* environment variables." oh please no
03:36:18 <CallForJudgement> even better, if it's a working Perl, then messing around with it is perfectly legal
03:36:47 <CallForJudgement> (it's a multilicense, so Xilinx get to pick which to ship it under)
03:37:06 <Bike> yeah i clicked through like four dozen licenses when i installed this thing, several of which were gpl
03:37:42 <CallForJudgement> also, it strikes me as crazy to modify Perl purely to rename the environment variables it uses
03:38:02 <Bike> shipping your own perl is kind of crazy too!
03:38:44 <CallForJudgement> artistic license is not copyleft enough to prevent them restricting you using it
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03:39:15 <CallForJudgement> the reason it's called xilperl is almost certainly 3c, which requires you to rename the executables if you use it
03:39:39 <CallForJudgement> that's also why the changes to environment variables are documented
03:39:57 <Bike> «$ENV{"XILINX"} = $ENV{"XXILINX"};» haha rock
03:39:57 <Taneb> CallForJudgement, why are you awake
03:40:05 <Taneb> Why does my back hurt
03:40:16 <kmc> XXXiLinXXX
03:40:52 <CallForJudgement> actually, I suspect that the breakdown of copyleftiness in this situation was intentional by the person or people who drafted the license
03:41:53 <CallForJudgement> no, as in the terms in question seem explicitly intended so that you can ship proprietary Perl programs via use of a custom Perl derivative
03:42:19 <Bike> «diff file0 file1» would output nothing iff the files are identical, correct?
03:42:24 <CallForJudgement> I understand the "worse for developers" argument, but the "better for users" is pretty strong
03:42:25 <kmc> Bike: are you reverse engineering the xilinx fpga tools
03:42:36 <Bike> so, um, it appears that all of these programs are identical.
03:42:43 <CallForJudgement> kmc: it's more he/she's peeking into them and discovering the horror within
03:42:48 <Bike> kmc: in my defense, they're really irritating!
03:42:55 <Bike> CallForJudgement: aaaaaah
03:43:16 <Bike> is argv[0] not good enough
03:43:19 <CallForJudgement> so that nethack4-tty and nethack4-sdl are both symlinks to the same executable
03:43:38 <CallForJudgement> so that you can symlink to the executable without it not working
03:43:48 <Bike> yeah, there's lots of readlinking in the setup, even.
03:43:49 <Taneb> The MS Paint Adventures server seems to be falling apart
03:43:54 <kmc> 420 readlink everyday
03:44:15 <Bike> kmc: there are apparently fifty identical executables here. this is what i'm dealing with
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03:44:57 <zzo38> If you know how Xilinx FPGA works and how to not need their GUI (so that it can be done inside the FPGA itself!) then that would work
03:45:03 <shachaf> kmc: -r---w---- readlink everyday
03:45:14 <CallForJudgement> making your code so abysmally painful to think about that anyone competent enough to crack the security doesn't want to try
03:45:19 <Bike> zzo38: well i'm trying to not use their GUI, though i think doing it on the fpga is rather ambitious for me.
03:45:38 <Bike> CallForJudgement: little did they take into account me -- a bored ignorant undergraduate. the ultimate weapon.
03:45:49 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: Maybe, but I don't think so. If you want to crack it then you do want to be painful anyways
03:46:00 <shachaf> kmc: btw mölkky has at least four names in various countries
03:46:24 <shachaf> e.g. number kubb, finska, klop
03:47:06 <Bike> by the way, xilperl is one of these 20Ks
03:47:47 <CallForJudgement> well it's clearly calling into a different executable somewhere
03:49:07 <Bike> oh, hey, "xilhelp". clearly this is my path to salvation.
03:49:32 <CallForJudgement> Bike: I'm not sure; the Xilinx tools output lots of incomprehensible errors
03:49:50 <CallForJudgement> with an allegedly human-readable description which was meaningless, and a hyperlinked (at least, blue and underlined) error code
03:49:58 <Bike> yes indeedily doo.
03:50:10 <CallForJudgement> clicking on the code opened a web browser, but the resulting page was never useful
03:50:57 <Bike> running xilhelp resulted in: "error while loading shared libraries: libXm.so.4: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory". i can't say this was very helpful
03:51:46 <Bike> i don't think i want to be helped that badly.
03:52:27 <Bike> hm, google suggests this is also used by something called "Cognos Business Intelligence"
03:52:30 <Bike> ominous imo...
03:53:24 <Bike> it's... part of openmotif.
03:54:12 <CallForJudgement> oh wow, on a webforum I read, somebody accidentally posted on the wrong subforum (a reasonable mistake), and edited the OP into a request to delete the thread (while there were no responses)
03:54:14 <Bike> oh, i guess people still use motif. well, what withrawn, i guess.
03:54:47 <Bike> did they do that
03:55:49 <CallForJudgement> most posts are either image macros or metadiscussion about the thread itself
03:56:14 <CallForJudgement> (also, nobody but the OP seems to know what the thread was originally about)
03:56:29 <Bike> «if ( -d "C:/" ) { $Platform = 'windows'; }»
03:57:11 <oerjan> CallForJudgement: you do know the most upvoted reddit post ever is "test post please ignore" right?
03:57:34 <CallForJudgement> also, it's very rare for Perl variables to start with capital letters
03:57:47 <CallForJudgement> when they do, it typically means that they're global for some reason, yet being namespaced to certain packages
03:58:15 <Bike> looks like all the variables are capitalized
03:58:18 <CallForJudgement> that's unlikely to be happening here, because somehow I suspect there isn't a "use Platform;" involve
03:58:22 <Bike> $CompedklibDefaultLogFile
03:58:46 <CallForJudgement> nor, if such a package existed, would it likely be necessary to check for Windows by looking for the existence of the root of the C drive
03:59:12 <zzo38> The system might not be on drive C though
03:59:17 <CallForJudgement> you could probably cause chaos by creating a "C:" directory in the current directory
03:59:35 <CallForJudgement> so this Xilinx software would fail for me, for completely mysterious reasons
04:00:00 <Bike> this file is dated to '96. cool
04:00:14 <zzo38> You can fix the parts of the programs that have source-codes available
04:00:33 <zzo38> On my Windows I have the system on drive F: instead of drive C:
04:00:53 <coppro> I wonder how much malware that instantly defeats
04:15:15 <Bike> Anyone know what /usr/ucb is/
04:16:44 <Bike> "university of california, berkeley"??
04:18:53 <Bike> this thing is eroding me.
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04:20:40 <Bike> also, it includes the entire jre.
04:21:05 <Bike> Twice, in fact, if I'm understanding this correctly
04:21:19 <Bike> yeah, 5 and 6.
04:24:00 <zzo38> I have suggested to the DM of a D&D game, a kind of curse in my character (although it can be removed normally).
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04:27:23 <zzo38> The demon (well, actually, almost-demon/almost-dragon, stuck in the middle of changing)'s brain is cursed, and now so am I; I no longer automatically heal damage (although spells and so on still work), and I take a -2 penalty to saves against divine spells cast by evil spellcasters. The curse can be removed normally although then I am hungry again.
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04:36:51 <zzo38> People have argued about if FurryScript counts as esolang or not (this was a while ago). However, also notice things like CUTLASS, and Prehistory of esoteric programming languages. Also, Wikipedia mentions "Random text generators such as the Dada Engine and rmutt are examples of this kind of nondeterminstic language." Are Dada Engine and rmutt considered esolangs?
04:40:34 <zzo38> (FurryScript was not *intended* to be strange, it just is! Dada Engine and rmutt aren't so strange, but they also aren't so powerful.)
04:43:29 <zzo38> Do you know the answer of any of these questions at this time?
04:54:24 <Sgeo> zzo38: What's the scripting that Furcadia uses?
04:56:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know.
04:56:50 <zzo38> That's what it is? OK
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05:04:12 <zzo38> Sgeo: Why do you want to know, and why do you ask me in particular?
05:04:33 <Sgeo> Because FurryScript sounded like it would be the name
05:05:19 <zzo38> O, well, I suppose it isn't.
05:06:09 <zzo38> I don't know if FurryScript codes really resemble any other programming languages at all. Does it look like it to you?
05:06:50 <Sgeo> I haven't actually looked at FurryScript
05:07:50 <zzo38> Did you look at it now?
05:12:31 <Sgeo> MyOpenID is closing
05:14:45 <zzo38> It is? Do you use MyOpenID?
05:16:27 <Sgeo> I've used MyOpenID for pretty much everything that asks for an OpenID
05:16:38 <Sgeo> It's the one thing that Google hasn't encroached on in my life
05:16:44 <Sgeo> Which... they will now, I guess
05:16:51 <Sgeo> Need to switch accounts over if possible, ugh
05:18:46 <Bike> How do I check what compiler a binary was compiled with based on its mangling style?
05:19:17 <zzo38> You could also run your own OpenID server if you have a server, or see if there is some other OpenID server
05:19:24 <zzo38> (I run my own OpenID server)
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07:34:42 <fizzie> Bike: You can compare manually to the lists in Chapter 8 of http://www.agner.org/optimize/calling_conventions.pdf
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07:39:53 <fizzie> Oh no, I don't have CallForJudgement -> ais523 in the nick-combine-map of #esoteric in the stats thing.
07:40:56 <fizzie> It's just that editing the list would involve rerunning the whole thing, and it takes a long.
07:41:20 <fizzie> Though I was supposed to combine two things there too, now I've forgotten who.
07:46:19 <fizzie> Is a CakeProphet the same thing as a kallisti?
08:30:31 <fizzie> Your presence bitmap has turned into these isolated vertical lines, basically.
08:31:38 <CallForJudgement> fizzie: my problem is that nobody seems to want to talk about esolangs
08:31:56 <CallForJudgement> lack of ontopic discussion, though, just means that the channel isn't actually about esoprogramming
08:33:27 <fizzie> That's certainly true.
08:34:06 <CallForJudgement> and so the main question is just whether I find the offtopic discussion interesting enough to stick around
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09:18:15 <zzo38> fizzie: Would it help to combine by address instead of nickname?
09:22:25 <CallForJudgement> I have a bunch that need combining, some of which are rarely used
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09:55:06 <zzo38> On topic is sometimes, but rarely
09:56:07 <zzo38> Do you think FurryScript programs seem to resemble programs in any other programming languages, and if so, which ones, and how much resemblance?
10:01:30 <zzo38> There are none that I know of.
10:01:40 <zzo38> (But maybe you know better)
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10:11:38 <zzo38> Furthermore, how much do the features resemble those of other programming languages?
10:27:29 <zzo38> I read about the "not provable" operator in Prolog; I was previously thinking of an operator to be added to any sequent calculus, which does something similar.
10:30:54 <zzo38> CallForJudgement: OK, so you can, but that has nothing to do with the point I was making anyways; rather I meant some operator (I called it an "oracle operator") which, if |- X isn't provable in some sequent calculus system then |- Oracle(X) is an axiom. So it isn't quite the same, although it might be related.
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12:27:50 <CallForJudgement> hmm, I note that oerjan cannot distinguish a thread, from thread
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15:29:17 <fizzie> Bah, it's always such a hassle whenever the electricity breaks.
15:29:32 <fizzie> (Last time was 475 days ago, so fortunately it's not exactly common.)
15:30:13 <fizzie> This time it seems that the BIOS battery of the router box has gone flat, because it was all "defaults set" and "no keyboard, press f1 to continue" when I went and plugged a monitor in to see what's up.
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15:52:02 <Vorpal> @tell boily The USB issue I have seems to be a kernel bug in 3.2 (which I'm running since I'm stable Debian, this might make me go testing or manually build a newer kernel, whichever is least work)
15:53:02 <Vorpal> I'm getting [428528.396567] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: ERROR no room on ep ring every time I plug or unplug a device on a specific other USB 2 hub
15:53:11 <Vorpal> which affects the USB 3 devices
16:18:19 <ion> shachaf: sfhhaac sahahfc ashfhac
16:18:27 <olsner> fizzie: is that why fungot is gone?
16:28:15 <fizzie> olsner: Yes. I'll see about getting that system back up soonishly.
16:30:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, This Debian package looks pretty silly: linux-image-amd64:i386
16:30:45 <Vorpal> that is the 64-bit kernel for multiarch x86
16:40:24 <Vorpal> Ooh, should I get an -rt kernel? That sounds cool
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17:20:07 <Vorpal> Well, here goes nothing, just manually build a newer fglrx package for Debian stable. Going to reboot to kernel from backports now
17:48:56 <Vorpal> coppro, yes. yes it is.
17:49:28 <Vorpal> coppro, but good luck using more than two monitors with consumer nvidia cards!
17:49:46 <Vorpal> You need multiple cards then
17:50:03 <fizzie> I think that's not true any more.
17:50:26 <fizzie> You can run four monitors on my gt660, I believe.
17:50:26 <fizzie> Or is it 660 GTX? Something like that, anyway.
17:50:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, think I can run 5 on mine, though I only use 3 currently
17:51:09 <fizzie> They were limited to two but bumped that up to 4 in the 6xx series, or something approximately like that.
17:52:03 <olsner> do those cards have 4/5 connectors too, or can you like split DVI cables and connect several screens?
17:52:36 <Vorpal> olsner, mine? It has 5: 2x DVI (one I and one D), 1x HDMI, 2x DP
17:53:43 <Vorpal> Anyway it works fine now, after a couple of reboots fixing kernel parameters and such
17:54:26 <olsner> so the number of supported screens really just depends on the number of connectors?
17:54:49 <fizzie> olsner: Not entirely, they've had >2 connectors for a while on NVidia cards without supporting >2 monitors.
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17:55:37 <fizzie> (You also need enough of the per-display hardware, like clock signal generators and whatnot, to support all connectors simultaneously.)
17:55:51 <Vorpal> <olsner> so the number of supported screens really just depends on the number of connectors? <-- mine is AMD though
17:57:00 <fizzie> olsner: And sometimes it's not a clear number, e.g. it's something like "at most X DVI monitors and Y DisplayPort ones, except if your DP-to-DVI adapter is active instead of passive".
17:57:32 <fizzie> (If they don't have enough of the things that generate the TMDS signal for DVI panels.)
17:58:46 <fizzie> I think my card has one DVI-I, one DVI-D, one HDMI and one DP connector.
17:58:51 <olsner> sounds complicated, I'm glad I'm happy with only two screens
17:59:38 <fizzie> I'm glad I don't have that "onboard Radeon + discrete NVidia card" three-monitor setup any more, now *that* was a can of worms.
18:01:00 <fizzie> I couldn't even run Xinerama on it, it just crashed all the time.
18:01:16 <fizzie> (I just ran old-fashioned X multihead then.)
18:01:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, I use onboard intel + discrete nivida quadro chipset at work for builtin + two external (from the laptop dock)
18:01:36 <fizzie> There's onboard Intel on this too, the Haswell integrated one.
18:01:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't work with all there unless I turn on that intel+nvidia thing in the bios
18:02:22 <fizzie> Also I think some kind of Optimus thing? At least Chromium chrome://gpu says "Optimus: true" and blacklists all 3D stuff. :p
18:02:32 <fizzie> "Drivers are unreliable for Optimus on Linux.: 131308"
18:03:09 <elliott> most of the laptops I've been considering have optimus
18:03:25 <fizzie> Seems that the bug has Status: fixed in Sep-2012, so maybe my Chromium is just very old.
18:04:43 <fizzie> I only use the discrete card here, though. Wouldn't I have to have the displays connected to the integrated GPU for actual Optimus to happen, even?
18:05:27 <fizzie> (I was under the assumption the final image always went through that even with a discrete GPU in use.)
18:05:32 <fizzie> It's all so confusing these days.
18:05:45 <elliott> yeah, that's how it works as I understand it
18:06:14 <fizzie> Also the xrandr -q result quite often seems to have nothing to do with the actually existing physical connectors; in my case, I have the outputs DVI-I-0 (does not exist), DVI-I-1 (exists), HDMI-0 (exists), DP-0 and DP-1 (presumably one of them exists) and DVI-D-0.
18:06:56 <fizzie> And it was something equally imaginary on the Intel graphics at work, I think.
18:07:18 <olsner> apparently xrandr thinks I have a single large screen
18:08:15 <fizzie> Old nvidia proprietary driver used to be like that.
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18:08:35 <fizzie> Also it had different modes indicated by fake refresh rates, or something like that.
18:08:50 <fizzie> (Because the dimensions of the bounding box aren't necessarily unique.)
18:09:55 <fizzie> Well, it's still a single large "Screen" (for the X definition of "Screen") for xrandr-age multihead, but there's the different outputs listed.
18:11:23 <fizzie> Gah, the CPU fan on the router box is being incredibly noisy. Probably about to break.
18:13:03 <elliott> fizzie: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=131308 -- looks like the "fix" is to blacklist it
18:14:20 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't read it all that closely. I was just assuming.
18:14:45 <fizzie> Admittedly it just goes "GPU thread hung up" and re-disables it if I --ignore-gpu-blacklist.
18:15:31 <fizzie> (Or do the chrome://flags thing.)
18:18:30 <Vorpal> Well that is broken, while watching flash video (youtube) the FPS of glxgrears (using forced vsync and "tear free desktop") drops to like 5. Pausing the video gives me the expected 60 FPS
18:18:39 <Vorpal> New on this kernel version
18:21:16 <olsner> it's a bit scary how browsers are dependent on reliable secure gpu drivers nowadays
18:21:50 <olsner> if the gpu blacklist is out of date and your driver has a bug, webgl gets a free pass to all your computer
18:22:59 <Vorpal> trying to sort out dependency issues with 32-bit libs after the upgrade
18:23:26 <olsner> a lot like the browser itself, granted, but at least browser makers have 20 years of dealing with broken web pages
18:23:57 <olsner> rather than 20 years of cheating the latest gpu benchmark and making shortcuts for the popular games, and freely assuming they only deal with code that the user has already bought and/or decided to trust
18:29:26 <elliott> didn't basically every security type person say webgl is an awful idea ages ago?
18:29:56 <elliott> but really the problem isn't webgl in particular, the problem is that at this point every piece of code has to be written for security
18:30:08 <olsner> I'm not a security type person so I'm probably late to that party but yes
18:30:15 <elliott> because nothing isn't exposed over the network nowadays
18:32:31 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Also the xrandr -q result quite often seems to have nothing to do with the actually existing physical connectors; in my case, I have the outputs DVI-I-0 (does not exist), DVI-I-1 (exists), HDMI-0 (exists), DP-0 and DP-1 (presumably one of them exists) and DVI-D-0. <-- quite, I have DFP1 to DFP7 plus CRT1
18:37:22 <kmc> turn them all on and stash your porn windows on the invisible screens
18:38:34 <Vorpal> It seems I'm using DFP5-DFP7
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19:52:54 <baordog> How is the esoteric programming world doing?
19:57:45 <HackEgo> baordog: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:58:18 <kmc> I remember in like 2003 getting the ability to hook up my computer to the (analog, CRT) television and it was so awesome
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20:00:22 <kmc> watching pirated 320x240 simpsons episodes over s-video
20:00:32 -!- Koen_ has joined.
20:00:48 <kmc> downloaded from KaZaA
20:00:58 <Bike> truly, the future
20:01:25 <kmc> some downloaded from IRC
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20:08:16 <olsner> I need to write some code
20:08:22 <Bike> irc is still like the fastest piracy i've used `-`
20:11:08 <kmc> The Internet Act of 1996 passed into law by Bill Clinton says you must disconnect IMMEDIATELY from this DCC if you are affiliated with any law enforcement agency!
20:13:13 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
20:13:30 <Taneb> As almost half of that list, I say thank you
20:13:55 <Bike> kmc: hahh, did they really say things like that?
20:15:23 <coppro> Vorpal: that's why intel cards exist
20:15:49 <Vorpal> coppro, I also use OpenGL and OpenCL though
20:16:02 <kmc> what about Intel cards?
20:17:06 <Vorpal> kmc, tripple screens I think, if it is the same conversation
20:17:43 <kmc> my last triple monitor system just had two nvidia cards
20:17:50 <elliott> did the internet act create the internet
20:18:01 <Vorpal> where is that quote from anyway kmc?
20:18:13 <Bike> the internet, obviously
20:18:17 <Bike> elliott: al gore joke
20:20:37 <kmc> Vorpal: it's my paraphrase of the kinds of things the piracy DCC bots would say when you connect to them
20:21:45 <kmc> you have to tell me if you're a cop
20:21:53 <kmc> it's in the constitution
20:22:29 <Vorpal> kmc, what about under cover stuff
20:22:39 <kmc> what about t
20:22:48 <Vorpal> kmc, do they have to tell too?
20:22:58 <Vorpal> Because that would defeat the point wouldn't it?
20:22:59 <kmc> the joke is that there is no such rule at all
20:23:08 <kmc> cops can freely lie about being cops (or most other things)
20:23:18 <Vorpal> ah, makes a lot more sense
20:23:34 <kmc> it's a common misconception among dumb criminals (or maybe just a trope of the existence of such a misconception)
20:23:43 <baordog> I think the entrapment rules vary quite a bit by country
20:23:48 <kmc> yeah I mean in the US
20:24:00 <Taneb> I wrote an application with a GUI in Haskell and now I'm way too proud of myself to try and do a bigger one
20:24:05 <Bike> how's it work in other countries, actually
20:24:08 <Vorpal> pretty sure there are some rules preventing some of that in Sweden for example yeah
20:24:15 <baordog> I know that cops pose on hacker forums all the time
20:24:19 <Bike> my understanding is that US cops can lie but not make fake offers
20:24:27 <baordog> I'm fairly certain german cops have to admit they are cops if directly questioned
20:24:44 <kmc> I think "entrapment" in the US is defined pretty strictly and basically has to include you committing a crime that you wouldn't otherwise
20:24:49 <kmc> like if the cops coerce you into it
20:24:49 <HackEgo> baordog: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:24:53 <kmc> but not if they just suggest it
20:25:06 <baordog> or they make it look extremly appealing
20:25:07 <kmc> because anyone who would sell drugs under a mere suggestion was probably going to anyway?
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20:25:16 <kmc> but there's also the thing where constitutional rights don't really apply in drug cases
20:25:17 * Bike imagines cop badgering people to buy a dirty bomb
20:25:20 <kmc> or any other kind of rights
20:25:25 <elliott> cop tries REALLY HARD to convince someone to sell them drugs
20:25:30 <kmc> Bike: if you don't build that dirty bomb you're a total pussy
20:25:35 <baordog> I know that a lot of hacker cases in the U.S don't actually end up sticking, because the evidence is gathered in such circumspect ways
20:25:37 <elliott> maybe if you're a drug dealer that can be your defence
20:25:42 <elliott> people have to pester you to do business with you
20:25:46 <Bike> "I didn't want to be a pussy, man"
20:26:14 <baordog> There's a wonderful book called "dark market" on the subject
20:26:22 <Bike> elliott: basically https://twitter.com/NotANark
20:26:53 <zzo38> If someone tries really hard to convince you to sell them drugs, then you should photograph them and bind them.
20:28:34 * itsy is reading http://www.basiccomic.com
20:36:21 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> If someone tries really hard to convince you to sell them drugs, then you should photograph them and bind them.
20:36:26 <HackEgo> 1102) <zzo38> If someone tries really hard to convince you to sell them drugs, then you should photograph them and bind them.
20:37:29 <kmc> bind them to what
20:38:05 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> If someone tries really hard to convince you to sell them drugs, then you should photograph them and bind them. <kmc> bind them to what <zzo38> To jail.
20:38:10 <HackEgo> 1102) <zzo38> If someone tries really hard to convince you to sell them drugs, then you should photograph them and bind them. <kmc> bind them to what <zzo38> To jail.
20:38:26 <zzo38> If they are a police officer then you should post the picture in a database of undercover police officers.
20:38:37 <zzo38> Pretend to be a drug dealer but never have any or sell any to anyone.
20:38:58 <kmc> <zzo38> 187 ON AN UNDERCOVER COP
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20:45:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Numeri&curid=8998&diff=37100&oldid=37095 this edit is really good
20:46:45 <Bike> people with autocensors are the best/worst
20:47:07 <Bike> do you have a ban-them-forever policy? probably should, they never seem to get better
20:47:08 <kmc> there's that chrome plugin which replaces "The Cloud" with "My Butt" and it sometimes makes its way into wiki edits
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22:21:41 <fizzie> fungot: You've been gone a while, how are you feeling?
22:21:42 <fungot> fizzie: it's a unicode character and got... well. i find myself writing things like fnord optimization or things like that very often, so it's the same
22:22:00 <fizzie> I guess that counts as "fine", then.
22:23:53 <fizzie> Also, from #elsewhere, but amusing: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-intel/commit/?id=58a7611ccfda88c7cbcc62b25b787d6b0fa64081&utm_source=anzwix
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22:24:31 * oerjan notes one of the mezzacotta characters seems to have eir markov chain based on the book of mormon.
22:24:40 <fizzie> (The parent commit being: [Revert "sna: Add XMir support"].)
22:30:03 <olsner> what's xmir and why do they even care?
22:32:14 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_(display_server_protocol)
22:32:59 <oerjan> looks like canonical managed to find a way to use gplv3 to be _less_ open source friendly :P
22:33:50 <fizzie> It's the future. Well, one of the futures.
22:34:27 <oerjan> i assume canonical owns ubuntu itself and so can put xmir there, but _neither_ upstream nor downstream distributions want anything to do with this.
22:34:58 * oerjan also has never quite managed to learn the difference between upstream and downstream.
22:35:13 <fizzie> You just look at which way the stuff flows.
22:36:16 <oerjan> i am guessing debian and xorg are upstream and {k,x,l}ubuntu are downstream in this case.
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22:39:37 <fizzie> I was under the impression they owned kubuntu too, but apparently that's no longer true.
22:41:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> Is a CakeProphet the same thing as a kallisti? <-- i think nineinchbread also
22:41:50 <fizzie> That's, unfortunately, too late. Hopefully that's not a too-much-used name.
22:42:26 <oerjan> hey just put it in the todo list for next release
22:43:36 <kmc> unsafeKallisti
23:09:02 <kmc> only 24 here
23:09:13 <kmc> but 28 in my house for some reason
23:11:38 <shachaf> you should make the bot report the weather
23:11:56 <fizzie> fungot: How's it in the noisy room?
23:11:56 <fungot> fizzie: http://www-i2.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/ fnord/ fnord
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23:20:05 <olsner> fungot: The URL /fnord/fnord was not found on this server.
23:20:06 <fungot> olsner: why not just put multiple inheritence into condition types?
23:20:21 <olsner> fungot: I'll try that, thanks
23:20:22 <fungot> olsner: lambda associates home page says it won't be much fun.) hmm, nearly got fnord actually, want to see
23:22:59 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/fnord/fnord/fnord/
23:24:21 <oerjan> have i made a lethal web page?!?!?!!!11ELEVEN
23:25:21 <olsner> quintopia: it was (is) information about England
23:26:49 <quintopia> todo: create the qaskell programming language
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01:03:10 <shachaf> kmc: http://anagramatron.tumblr.com/
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02:51:52 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:19:05 <madbr> why am I obsessed by cpu design :o
03:20:16 <oerjan> it's because you were a computer in your previous life
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04:05:38 <shachaf> Sgeo knows a bit, I think.
04:05:47 <constant> and if so, do you know if Long_Long_Integer'Last is uniform across implementations ?
04:25:36 <Sgeo> Here's all I remember about ada: x and y or z is invalid, you need parens like (x and y) or z
04:26:00 <Sgeo> Probably not that helpful hee
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05:38:00 <kmc> Sgeo: seems like a reasonable rule
05:38:26 <kmc> I'm definitely in favor of languages having fewer complicated precedence rules and more "put in some damn parentheses" parse errors
05:38:38 <kmc> in totally the opposite direction, I saw a proposal for using horizontal whitespace for this
05:38:45 <kmc> so that a+b * c would be different from a + b*c
05:39:11 <kmc> the "as" casting operator in Rust ended up between + and * in the hierarchy because people kept getting confused and modifying the compiler to move it
05:39:36 <Bike> i kind of hate the whitespace thing.
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05:40:36 <Sgeo> Ada was more or less intended to be rock-solid in a easier-to-understand and harder-to-make-bugs sense, I think
05:40:45 <Sgeo> I don't know if it actually succeeded
05:41:57 <Sgeo> http://archive.adaic.com/standards/83rat/html/ratl-03-06.html
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06:26:19 <shachaf> @@ blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blaha /me abc
06:26:19 <lambdabot> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blaha /
06:26:24 <shachaf> @@ blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahaaa /me abc
06:26:24 <lambdabot> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahaaa
06:26:46 <shachaf> Oh, right, it ignores the IRC line length and splits its own way.
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07:29:13 <kmc> it turns out that bit-banging serial protocols from Python on Linux on a 700 MHz 32-bit processor is a lot slower than from a C program with no OS on a 16 MHz 8-bit processor
07:29:19 <kmc> this is not really surprising, but still a pain
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08:15:27 <lsrike> I have this issue with this Piet esoteric language. I have a foreach loop that upon each iteration increments the output with a value. I want this value to be an input rather than a variable. Here is my code so far: http://i.imgur.com/dfBkOFD.png
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08:23:30 <Taneb> lsrike, well, you need to make it an input rather than a variable, then
08:24:45 <Taneb> To input a number, it's 4 hue steps and 2 shades darker
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11:14:32 <nortti> ``Fort Pannerden (a military fort built in 1869) was evicted on November 8, 2006, by a massive police operation which used military machinery and cost one million euros. The squatters then re-squatted the fort on November 26''
11:14:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `Fort: not found
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14:57:07 <Taneb> How do I invoke the wrath of myndzi
14:57:10 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
14:57:11 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ ¦ c.c.c |
14:57:11 <myndzi> /< c.c >\ /| | | /< c.c /| | /| |´¸¨ c.c /`\
15:06:36 <olsner> myndzi doesn't seem very wrathful
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15:41:39 <mnoqy> then what was that up there
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17:41:12 <ion> Multiocular c
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18:17:42 <HackEgo> slist roxy: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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19:29:36 <kmc> multiocular c.c!
19:30:16 <kmc> c.c is a CMU-ism I think; it's like eyes looking away
19:30:21 <kmc> verbal equivalent might be "uh...."
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19:31:13 <kmc> something like "don't worry if you get a call about me from the FBI tomorrow" "c.c"
19:31:42 <kmc> and multiocular O is the most rare and exotic glyph variant of Cyrillic letter O; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
19:33:23 <shachaf> do you mean to say "Cyrillic letter О"
19:41:30 <olsner> apparently you need a 6 letter nick
19:41:33 <kmc> shachaf: I copy-pasted from Wikipedia
19:41:39 <kmc> but probably yes
19:42:20 <ion> BREAKING NEWS: incorrect information detected on Wikipedia
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21:27:09 <oerjan> @@ blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahaaa /me abc
21:27:09 <lambdabot> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahaaa
21:27:52 <elliott> oerjan: I suggest not thinking about it. that's what I decided.
21:28:26 <oerjan> @@ blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahaaa /part I suggest you fix it instead.
21:28:26 <lambdabot> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahaaa
21:28:26 <lambdabot> /part I suggest you fix it instead.
21:28:36 <shachaf> oerjan: No, it's a special case in the code for /me.
21:29:20 <oerjan> oh it would need an #esoteric anyway, i guess.
21:29:54 <Koen_> @@ what is this new / @ command?
21:29:54 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: ""
21:29:56 <oerjan> elliott: ok i think i concur with your suggestion.
21:30:22 <Koen_> @@ what is this previously unknowned by me / command?
21:30:22 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: ""
21:30:24 <lambdabot> @@ executes plugin invocations in its arguments, parentheses can be used.
21:30:24 <lambdabot> The commands are right associative.
21:30:24 <lambdabot> is the same as: @@ (@pl (@undo code))
21:32:21 <lambdabot> ?? executes plugin invocations in its arguments, parentheses can be used.
21:32:21 <lambdabot> The commands are right associative.
21:32:21 <lambdabot> is the same as: ?? (?pl (?undo code))
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21:32:32 <oerjan> @? what if i just want to be contrary?
21:32:32 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: ""
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21:35:57 <oerjan> elliott: would you get angry with me if i told Solain to be more patient before quitting?
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21:36:59 <HackEgo> hm what is this? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:37:12 <olsner> `run cat wisdom/Solain
21:37:14 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/Solain: No such file or directory
21:37:16 <olsner> `run cat wisdom/solain
21:37:42 <shachaf> You should fix cat up so it behaves like ? when reading a file from wisdom/
21:37:56 <oerjan> olsner: i was just wondering if someone had changed something to use that picture by default, since it has happened before.
21:38:07 <olsner> I was also wondering the same thing
21:39:05 <oerjan> oh of course it's ls which is specialized.
21:41:19 <oerjan> @tell Solain Most people aren't watching the irc channels all the time, so quitting after just a minute because no one responded is a bit short. :)
21:41:47 <oerjan> wait, i just realized that also applies to elliott answering my question. oh well.
21:41:50 <shachaf> oerjan: Now I've gotten angry with you.
21:42:25 <oerjan> shachaf: it's ok you don't have ops
21:42:42 <shachaf> only in channels that matter hth
21:45:28 <olsner> oerjan: you really don't need elliott's approval to talk to people
21:48:06 <olsner> or maybe you do and we both get banned for subvertive behaviour
21:48:21 <shachaf> oerjan: alt. you can fix that
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22:11:02 <Koen_> and once more I'm on the living side of the split
22:11:07 <Koen_> I feel like the chosen one
22:11:16 <Koen_> never been split out of my side
22:11:28 <lambdabot> kmc said 2d 21h 50m 7s ago: I think && and || are just special cased in the language, as in most languages
22:11:51 <Koen_> yes *I guessed so*
22:12:03 <olsner> Koen_: from their side of the split you're on the dead side of the split
22:12:46 <Koen_> you're talking nonsense olsner
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22:25:23 <Roujo> Koen_: Wait... That's how split works. You can't die because of a split. =/
22:25:39 <Roujo> Unless you count being on the side where Services are as "being on the living side"
22:26:20 <olsner> I've never been on the dead side so I'm really not sure what happens there
22:26:29 <Koen_> Roujo: I'm pretty sure the other half was marked as having quitted
22:26:55 <Roujo> Koen_: Yeah, and from their side you're the one who quit =P
22:26:55 <Koen_> Roujo: so i'm gonna assume you're just jalous and making stuff up
22:28:35 <Roujo> Koen_: But that's not how netsplits woooork >_>
22:30:01 <Koen_> Roujo: what proof do you have?
22:30:22 <Koen_> olsner just admitted he didn't have any
22:31:46 <Roujo> I was on the other side, once
22:32:47 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure only my irssi session exists and the rest of the universe is an illusion
22:34:22 <Roujo> oerjan: We're just irssi scripts. Well, I am, anyway
22:37:11 <oerjan> some of us aren't even trying to hide it \o/
22:39:22 <Koen_> \o/ \o/ have to trest with multiple \o/s
22:42:39 <oerjan> ^celebrate DO IT LIKE THIS
22:42:39 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
22:42:39 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
22:42:40 <myndzi> |\ c.c |\ /< | | |\ c.c |\ | /| | |\ c.c /<
22:48:44 <Koen_> sooooooo what am I looking at?
22:50:22 <olsner> three multiocular c.c and two \m/ \m/ and some \o| through |o/ and some other people
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22:51:21 <Koen_> multiocular c.c OKAY
22:51:40 <oerjan> i didn't know myndzi's line length was that big
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22:52:15 <olsner> I did get a bit worried when it didn't respond for 11 seconds
22:53:09 <oerjan> i was surprised when it _did_ respond, as i thought you'd gone past the allowed line length.
22:53:33 <HackEgo> myanon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:56:33 <myanon> I was wondering about an oddity when going to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_complete ... The list doesn't include Bitwise Cyclic Tag, but click (next 200) at bottom of page, then (previous 200), and there it is! Pretty strange.
22:57:25 <Koen_> yes category pages are obscure
22:58:02 <oerjan> myanon: hm i'm not seeing what you are seeing, it's in the right spot for me.
22:58:21 <oerjan> misread your instructions
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22:59:38 <Roujo> There's an allowed line lenght?
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23:00:03 <olsner> no, all line lengths are forbidden!
23:00:05 <oerjan> Roujo: i thought there was some limit. but maybe i remember wrong.
23:00:17 <oerjan> myanon: anyway, i didn't manage to see your problem.
23:00:27 <Roujo> I guess I'll just c.c until the cows go home, then.
23:02:27 <oerjan> myanon: ok i see that the category was added only four days ago. i suspect there was something in cache or database that hadn't been updated properly, and it was somehow recalculated when you went back to it.
23:02:43 <oerjan> so from now it should work properly.
23:02:58 <oerjan> (added to the BCT article, that is.)
23:04:06 <oerjan> i understand this can sometimes happen with category pages.
23:04:24 <Roujo> Categories are Weird
23:04:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:06:40 <myanon> oerjan ... I just tried it again using both Chrome and IE ... clicking the Turing Complete category link (or using the one I just posted) gives repeatable behavior ... Bitwise Cyclic Tag doesn't appear on the opening page (should be between BiTrax and Blind), then it mysteriously shows up by clicking Next then Previous 200.
23:06:52 <Koen_> I've got that problem for basically any language that's been added to a category in the past several months
23:07:44 <Koen_> (except if the category was added when the page was created rather than in a later edit)
23:08:50 <oerjan> ok. i think this is elliott's problem :P
23:09:28 <oerjan> myanon: what happens if you reload explicitly?
23:10:29 <myanon> oerjan ... same thing if I explicitly hit Reload in the browser -- it's missing until I do the Next/Previous thing.
23:11:05 <oerjan> Shift-Reload? (or is it Ctrl- i can never remember the difference, or if there even is one.)
23:12:29 <oerjan> it would make sense for plain Reload not to work if the category pages don't keep track of when their content changes properly.
23:13:20 <oerjan> because plain Reload (as well as restarting the browser i think) only reloads if the server tells the browser that the page has changed since the browser visited it.
23:13:52 <oerjan> also, if this is the case then wiping your browser cache should also work.
23:15:54 <myanon> oerjan ... with Chrome, none of these have an effect: F5, Shift-F5, Ctrl-F5 (these last two "overide the cache", according to the Chrome website)
23:17:47 <oerjan> weird. i'm using IE 10 btw.
23:18:10 <myndzi> i can never remember shift or ctrl, usually try both
23:18:15 <myndzi> i think only one works in firefox
23:18:25 <myndzi> in chrome, i have dev tools set to disable cache
23:18:29 <myndzi> so i can just open dev tools and refresh
23:18:53 <oerjan> i _do_ have a vague feeling they do the same thing in IE.
23:19:22 <myanon> oerjan ... I've tried the latest Chrome and IE10 ... same behavior -- are you not getting this behavior at all?
23:20:14 <oerjan> i've seen Bitwise Cyclic Tag in the right spot every time - but i forgot to look before doing Next 200 the first time, since i misread your instruction.
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23:22:21 <oerjan> myanon: i see it when i log out from my account first!
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23:22:45 <Koen_> oerjan: btw you were probably right about google suggestions; I realized afterwards I was talking about google results
23:23:09 <oerjan> Koen_: OK MAYBE I DON'T HAVE TO KILL YOU ALL ANYWAY THEN
23:23:13 <myanon> NOW it works ... I hadn't bothered to log in, and when I did, the mysterious behavior goes away. It reappears if I log out!
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23:23:47 <oerjan> ok, new explanation: elliott has set up caching for non-logged in pages.
23:23:48 <Koen_> oerjan: yeah hum I'm afraid you still have to since you didn't call my bluff the first time
23:24:15 <elliott> oerjan: I have, but it should expire properly?
23:24:32 <oerjan> elliott: but maybe not within 4 days?
23:24:36 <Roujo> I intend, with notice, to call every bluff ever made.
23:25:05 <oerjan> although Koen_ says he has that problem for older pages than that
23:25:10 <elliott> oerjan: it should expire immediately-ish when it should expire
23:25:44 <Koen_> wenn I don't remember if there's a distinction between being logged in or not, and I haven't checked for at least six months
23:26:40 * oerjan notes that the new urls for the Rflct links aren't loading properly either, but at least the host supposedly exists.
23:27:03 <elliott> oerjan: the {{deadlink}} didn't get removed!
23:27:06 <elliott> they're just updated dead links.
23:27:11 <myanon> But isn't it very strange that this is apparently only happening with Bitwise Cyclic Tag (which happens to be a page that I created)???
23:28:18 <oerjan> elliott: i know. i hope they'll load occasionally. :)
23:28:30 <elliott> cool! I was wondering where you went, years ago
23:29:22 <myanon> I stop by here occasionally, but haven't really participated for quite a while.
23:29:25 <oerjan> myanon: it's not strange because it was the last page to have a category updated.
23:29:43 <myanon> oerjan ... ahhh, I see
23:30:39 <oerjan> elliott: perhaps the expiry is calculated wrong for category pages?
23:30:51 <oerjan> like, it only includes the actual category text, or something.
23:31:24 <oerjan> i suppose we could test by editing that.
23:32:41 <oerjan> myanon: try reloading now.
23:33:51 <myanon> Nice ... now it works whether logged in or out ... thanks for all your trouble!
23:34:12 <oerjan> ok but elliott still needs to fix the underlying problem :P
23:37:23 * oerjan wonders if this caching bug would also affect template inclusions.
23:44:03 <myanon> Time for me to go ... everyone have a good day, and thanks for doing whatever you can about the "bug".
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00:22:49 <oerjan> cryptography fans might find this interesting http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1517
00:24:17 <oerjan> "What was long a plausible conjecture—that the NSA covertly influences cryptographic standards to give itself backdoors, and that otherwise-inexplicable vulnerabilities in deployed cryptosystems are sometimes there because the NSA wanted them there—now looks close to an established fact."
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00:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, ugh why does he have to give probabilities like that
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00:27:08 <Phantom_Hoover> who do you think you're fooling, you're clearly just using 99% as a convenient rhetorical default
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00:35:03 <Koen_> I'm about to say something very stupid
00:35:41 <Koen_> I had to implement multiplication for numbers-as-strings-of-digits quite recently and I've read a few articles about multiplications algorithms
00:36:10 <Koen_> and it may have been because I was missing a lot of sleep but at several points I was under the impression that their explanations about complexity were wrong
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00:36:42 <Koen_> for instance they were calculating the complexity in function of the number of digits of a number n
00:37:02 <Koen_> and sometimes ended with a conclusion "therefore this algorithm is O(n^3)"
00:37:23 <oerjan> well that's a stupid typo, really.
00:37:36 <Koen_> I figured as much but it happened several times
00:37:40 <Koen_> and just now I read this:
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00:39:06 <Koen_> okay wait a minute my copy pasting has magically replaced spaces with newlines
00:39:21 <Bike> i commend you for catching it before you actually pasted.
00:40:26 <Koen_> Factoring is hard. Despite centuries of effort by some of the world's smartest mathematicians and computer scientists, the fastest methods for factoring a number N take time exponential in the number of bits of N.
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00:40:42 <Koen_> so the important part is "exponential in the number of bits"
00:41:17 <Koen_> am I missing something or is he saying it's exponential in a logarithm, which is called being linear in my town?
00:42:03 <Koen_> ohhhh or is that because the logarithm is not the same base as the exponential
00:42:17 <Bike> i don't think it's bad to say "exponential in the number of bits" even if that does mean linear
00:42:17 <Fiora> it's exponential with respect to the size of the input, which is measured in bits, I think
00:42:22 <Fiora> like "100 digit input" vs "200 digit input"
00:42:28 <oerjan> you're missing something: the number of bits of the input is the standard x which you measure complexity as a function of.
00:42:28 <Fiora> the 200 digit input is twice the size, not 10^100 the size
00:42:44 <Bike> Koen_: different bases would only cause a constant multiplicative factor, which is nothing anybody cares about in complexity :p
00:43:07 <Koen_> so the first thing was only a typo?
00:43:13 <Bike> which first thing
00:43:23 <Bike> you're welcome oerjan
00:43:32 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:43:47 <Koen_> Koen_: for instance they were calculating the complexity in function of the number of digits of a number n
00:43:48 <Koen_> [02:37] Koen_: and sometimes ended with a conclusion "therefore this algorithm is O(n^3)"
00:44:16 <Bike> what's wrong with that?
00:44:23 <Bike> schoolboy multiplication is n³ i think
00:44:31 <oerjan> Koen_: the typo is using the same variable n for both the number and what you're measuring complexity as a function of (which should be the _size_ of the number, not the number.)
00:44:45 <oerjan> Bike: it's wrong because it not the same n in the two lines
00:44:48 <Bike> yeah that'd be some kind of typo
00:44:55 <Koen_> okay so everything is working right in the world and I was just imagining things
00:45:04 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
00:45:05 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
00:45:05 <myndzi> |\ c.c >\ /'\| | |\ c.c >\ | /^\|/| c.c >\
00:46:21 <shachaf> since when does celebrate contain c.c
00:46:42 <Bike> don't deny the seraphim their celebration!
00:47:37 <shachaf> > text . unwords . replicate 20 $ " c.c "
00:47:38 <oerjan> shachaf: i updated it to include new myndzi features
00:47:38 <lambdabot> c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c....
00:47:44 <shachaf> > text . unwords . replicate 5 $ " c.c "
00:47:45 <myndzi> c.c.c c.c.c c.c.c c.c.c c.c.c
00:48:28 <shachaf> have to do everything myself
00:48:37 <shachaf> what did i invent computers for anyway
00:49:05 <oerjan> you didn't, do you think you're al gore or something?
00:49:48 <shachaf> no, i'm the giant on whose shoulders al gore stoode
00:52:09 <Gracenotes_> also, do you like the underscore? it's the new style
00:52:20 <Bike> why not grace_notes
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00:52:48 <shachaf> Bike: plz fix the weather thx
00:53:03 <Bike> the weather's fine
00:53:07 <Bike> Gracenotes_: why not grace_notes
00:53:31 <Gracenotes_> someone is probably registering it as we speak
00:53:36 <Bike> no weather found
00:53:48 <Gracenotes_> shachaf: it's going to be a high of 90F pretty much all week
00:53:57 <lambdabot> http://www.myscienceproject.org/beer.html
00:53:59 <shachaf> @google 90f in real degrees
00:54:00 <lambdabot> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070712040823AABeQ2f
00:54:00 <lambdabot> Title: What is 90 degrees fahrenheit in celcius? - Yahoo! Answers
00:54:17 <shachaf> my ol' buddy Yahoo! Answers knows what's up
00:54:46 <Bike> something like 25?
00:54:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sanetemp: not found
00:55:04 <Gracenotes_> wouldn't that be google that knows what's up
00:55:45 <shachaf> p. sure i'm not allowed to talk about that in public, Gracenotes_
00:56:52 <shachaf> imo http://www.theonion.com/articles/ford-develops-new-suv-that-runs-purely-on-gasoline,33568/
00:57:09 <lambdabot> http://calculator-converter.com/converter_c_to_f_celsius_to_fahrenheit_calculator.php
00:57:09 <lambdabot> Title: C to F Convert Celsius to Fahrenheit and Fahrenheit to Celsius degrees Conver...
00:57:58 <Bike> it's amazing in that way
00:58:01 <HackEgo> 2527 units, 72 prefixes, 56 nonlinear units \ \ You have:
01:00:18 <lambdabot> http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/temperature/kelvin-to-fahrenheit.htm
01:00:18 <lambdabot> Title: Kelvin to Fahrenheit (�F) degrees converter
01:00:32 <Bike> just skip to reamur
01:06:01 <Gracenotes_> my chocolate that was just sitting on my desk, not in the sun, melted
01:06:23 <Gracenotes_> my hands got very chocolatey as I was figuring it out
01:06:24 <shachaf> the desk isn't for sitting
01:08:53 <shachaf> aren't we all fans of Gracenotes_
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01:10:50 <kmc> apparently the fundamental way you talk to the GPIO pins on the Raspberry Pi is that you mmap() /dev/mem and just start poking shit
01:11:05 <kmc> as far as continuing the educational legacy of 80s microcomputers, I approve
01:12:51 <copumpkin> for a while, you could tell iOS to map arbitrary regions of memory to a device
01:12:56 <copumpkin> that's how we did a lot of sneaky stuff
01:13:07 <Bike> /dev/fucktheworld
01:13:47 <copumpkin> it was actually how we circumvented their hardware encryption, which stumped us for months
01:14:30 <copumpkin> but anyway, it wasn't the standard endorsed way to do things in iOS, just a feature apple forgot to remove in their kernel builds for a while, until they realized what we were doing with it
01:15:11 <Gracenotes_> I mean, this is more-or-less what PCI and PCIe is, yeah
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01:16:06 <Gracenotes_> copumpkin: say, are you going to ICFP, by any chance?
01:16:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: why don't you come poke him face to face!!
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01:16:27 <Gracenotes_> woo. I plan on attending the Haskell bits.
01:16:51 <copumpkin> Gracenotes_: how about the main event? that's what I'll be at
01:16:53 <shachaf> copumpkin: Maybe next year!
01:17:06 <copumpkin> won't it be somewhere exotic next year?
01:17:08 <shachaf> You'd better come visit to be on the safe side.
01:17:23 <Gracenotes_> copumpkin: I might sneak in the first day for the main event
01:17:23 <shachaf> Outside the US is a lot more trouble.
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01:18:53 <Gracenotes_> the first day is dependent types, both keynote and session, as well as things like data parallelism and fun/pearls.
01:19:11 <Gracenotes_> before that, there are 3 days of Haskell things
01:20:01 <Gracenotes_> so then I will be missing SPJ's talk about the work he's done with Computing at School, but hopefully that will be recorded
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02:03:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: /whois is thataway
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02:04:39 <Sgeo> What am I missing here?
02:07:08 <Sgeo> So constant is variable is a FreeBSD person. Why does that warrant pinging me?
02:07:55 <Sgeo> Also may be using, or pretending to be using, root
02:08:12 <Sgeo> I still don't see how I got caught up in this
02:08:40 <oerjan> well i don't know about that, but e _is_ a regular.
02:09:11 <shachaf> oerjan: I think Sgeo is asking why you mentioned /whois.
02:09:36 <Sgeo> I didn't mean to accidently imply that e isn't a regular, I just want to know why e pinged me
02:09:42 <oerjan> ok, i interpreted "constant?" as Sgeo not knowing who e was.
02:09:51 <shachaf> Imagine: <oerjan> shachaf: around? <shachaf> Hi <shachaf> What's up? [...] <shachaf> oerjan?
02:11:18 <oerjan> i note constant hasn't spoken since the line, maybe e's lost connection somewhere.
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02:12:51 <Sgeo> I know one thing about Ada, which I mentioned last time Ada was mentioned: a and b or c is invalid, you need parentheses
02:13:47 <Sgeo> There may be an Ada IRC channel
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02:32:35 <oerjan> elliott: what's that thing you do when you delete spam that makes it not show up in recent changes any longer :(
02:32:49 <oerjan> apparently clicking rollback wasn't it.
02:34:36 <oerjan> that elliott doesn't look online
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02:35:11 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i'm talking about hiding it from _others_ unless they show bots.
02:35:16 <Fiora> elliott's asleep fyi
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02:37:19 <Gracenotes> oerjan: to change user statuses, there is Special:UserRights
02:38:38 <zzo38> What are your opinions of Ellsberg paradox?
02:38:50 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i do not think we are talking about the same feature.
02:39:41 <oerjan> ais523 used to do this thing whenever there was major spamming going on.
02:41:41 <Gracenotes> anyway, you can try marking that user as a bot, if that is what you wanted
02:41:42 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i don't have access to Special:UserRights anyway, and i'm pretty sure ais523 doesn't have more rights than me.
02:42:05 <oerjan> oh maybe that's what he did.
02:42:33 <Gracenotes> he does have extra rights: check users (accept IP info), bureaucrat
02:43:17 <Gracenotes> with the default configuration, bureaucrats are able to change rights such as admin status. In other configs, admins can change statuses like the ability to rollback.
02:43:18 <oerjan> did he have it back then?
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02:45:45 <zzo38> My own conclusion (hopefully I did it correctly) is that if no probability can be assigned to the number of black and yellow balls (and that it isn't any kind of deception or any other psychological factors of the people who put the balls in there), then either AD or BC should be selected.
02:46:00 <oerjan> i think he got it when elliott took over the wiki, but what i'm talking about he did before that, when spam was getting out of hand
02:47:10 <zzo38> I may have made a mistake though.
02:48:44 <Gracenotes> oerjan: he's deleted over 4000 spam pages
02:49:06 <oerjan> deletion is not what i'm talking about here
02:49:49 <oerjan> i'm talking about reverting spam edits to an already existing page, without it showing up in the default recent changes.
02:49:50 <zzo38> Gracenotes: What is your reasoning?
02:50:36 <Gracenotes> well, they are the ones with definite probabilities
02:50:52 <Gracenotes> I suppose I'd be thinking about it adversarially
02:51:11 <zzo38> Yes, but that isn't a full reasoning.
02:52:18 <Gracenotes> Between A and B, A has probability 33%, B as 0-66%. rounding a bit.
02:55:01 <Gracenotes> My strategy is maximizing the minimum. There's just not enough information to make an optimality argument.
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02:56:46 <Gracenotes> In most real world situations involving missing information, there are no numbers, either for the probabilities or the amount of uncertainty.
02:57:14 <zzo38> I am also maximizing the minimum.
02:59:35 <Gracenotes> Well, that is my view. What complications are introduced by that?
03:06:13 <zzo38> I am maximizing the minimum expected gain according to probabilities.
03:06:54 <zzo38> The thing you have failed to consider is that you should consider both gambles together using whatever same amount of black and yellow balls there are; the amount is the same for both gambles.
03:09:09 <Gracenotes> oh, both gambles occur together? I see.
03:10:10 <zzo38> I did make these assumptions, that the number of the balls is the same each time, and that the ball picked is replaced before picking again, as well as that you must select both gambles before the first ball is picked.
03:10:45 <Gracenotes> yes, so 0%-66% scales with 100%-33% respectively.
03:11:37 <zzo38> What I have not yet considered is if you want to instead maximize the probability of winning at least $100.
03:12:00 <Gracenotes> "the amount is the same for both gambles" is a pretty big assumption
03:12:20 <Gracenotes> not big as in unreasonable, but more important, I expect
03:18:20 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article also makes that assumption (although I make these assumptions even regardless of Wikipedia).
03:21:03 <Gracenotes> I would probably plot the probabilities of winning $0, $100, and $200 for all four combinations as blacks vary from 0 to 60
03:22:13 <zzo38> Yes, I would do the same
03:22:23 <zzo38> (if I were less lazy)
03:23:32 <Gracenotes> then make my decision based on either assuming a uniform distribution or an adversarial distribution (I would probably go for the latter)
03:24:32 <zzo38> What is an "adversarial distribution"?
03:38:34 <Gracenotes> the number of black balls an adversary would put when they know your strategy and are trying to minimize your gains.
03:39:52 <Gracenotes> distribution refers to the distribution of black/yellow balls
03:42:24 <zzo38> And yes it is also what I was considering, but not because there actually is such an adversary; it is because such thing is unknown.
03:42:30 <Gracenotes> You can do fun things like have a strategy like 'flip a fair coin to decide between AD and BC', in which case your adversary's calculation would get more complicated, but still possible.
03:42:55 <Gracenotes> In crypto, people have fun strategies like 'flip 256 random coins'
03:43:09 <zzo38> Yes, things like that too, I suppose, can be.
03:44:14 <Gracenotes> hm. I'm off to get dinner. sadly, I might buy it from walgreens, but it'll be okay.
03:49:17 <kmc> what will it be
03:51:58 <zzo38> In one book I read about Newcomb's paradox, my own strategy as soon as I read it was toss a coin. However, later in a book by Gardner, they said it is empty if you select at random.
04:08:47 <quintopia> zzo38: so, how about now? one-box or two-box?
04:11:53 <zzo38> quintopia: It depends. "The Predictor can be presented as a psychic, as a superintelligent alien, as a deity, as a brain-scanning computer, etc." So it depends on these things and on other details not specified here.
04:12:02 <zzo38> As well as about how much money I need.
04:12:26 <zzo38> And on things that happen between the prediction and my actual selection.
04:12:32 <zzo38> There are too many factors to consider.
04:14:09 <quintopia> zzo38: assume that you want to maximize your profit and that the predictor has shown 99% accuracy in all demonstrations to date
04:15:41 <zzo38> OK, but still, what kind of predictor? Still, I wouldn't really know until I actually got the chance to pick, although I can try to guess.
04:19:42 <zzo38> I would also want to know why I am being given these choices (even if they lie to me when telling the reason, it doesn't matter)
04:19:56 <quintopia> zzo38: guess what you would pick if all you knew was what i just told you. you don't know if the predictor is psychic or just very well-informed, but you do know he is right 99% so far.
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04:20:40 <quintopia> and you are being given these choices as an alternative to humanity being destroyed
04:20:48 <quintopia> if you don't pick, we all must die
04:21:02 <zzo38> In that case, I don't care.
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04:22:45 <zzo38> I find it difficult to answer, but I don't care, and probably won't pick any (although other people can pick one if they want to)
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04:26:20 <zzo38> Humanity is only a very minor part of the universe, and I am even a more minor thing in the universe.
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04:28:22 <zzo38> Also, it isn't necessarily a bad thing (although not being destroyed is also not necessarily a bad thing)
04:28:55 <zzo38> So in other words, there still isn't enough information!!!
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04:36:36 <zzo38> Do you know of some other paradoxes (whether or not they are mentioned in Wikipedia)?
04:39:53 <quintopia> newcomb isn't really a paradox, just a problem
04:43:14 <quintopia> http://sprachlogik.blogspot.com/2011/02/liar-paradox-of-material-implication.html
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04:45:55 <Bike> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1371 the engineer paradox, not mentioned in wikipedia to my knowledge
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04:47:45 <Bike> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2148 also "the paradox of the court" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_the_Court
04:47:51 <Gracenotes> going back, I do see that the interesting bit about the Ellsberg paradox is that some ways of knowing what you don't know help you more than others.
04:50:36 <quintopia> zzo38: do you know the curry paradox?
04:53:52 <zzo38> quintopia: I can see now, I saw it before but forgot
04:54:41 <quintopia> if this sentence is true, then you'll forget again.
04:55:15 <zzo38> I can see that it doesn't work due to nontermination, I think
05:02:13 <kmc> http://fuckyeahx11.tumblr.com/
05:03:35 <Bike> how many levels of irony are involved here help
05:05:23 <Gracenotes> tumblr wants me to "Never miss a post!"
05:05:30 <kmc> or am i bad for answering a "how many" question with an ordinal
05:06:09 <Bike> what's epsilon zero again? the fixed point of x -> \omega ^ x?
05:07:11 <Bike> oh wow i actually got that mostly right.
05:09:14 <Bike> > fix ((sqrt 2) ^)
05:09:15 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
05:09:15 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M777596952.sho...
05:09:40 <Bike> is it saying it can't show undefined
05:10:38 <Fiora> kmc: is it intentional that the background, like, flashes when you scroll?
05:11:17 <Bike> ...lol, it does.
05:12:21 <Gracenotes> hm, especially not here. http://fuckyeahx11.tumblr.com/image/2385309201
05:13:13 <Bike> the superior computer program.
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05:19:08 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
05:19:40 <Bike> i can't be bothered to remember all of haskell's numeric crap
05:19:43 <Gracenotes> don't you know, you can't be Floating and Integral at the same time. it's totally impossible
05:19:48 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
05:19:59 <Bike> also it won't work anyway obviously.
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05:20:05 <Bike> > fix ((sqrt 2) **)
05:20:14 <Bike> even though 2 is a better answer!! it's terrible
05:20:30 <Gracenotes> well, it finds the least fixpoint of definedness.
05:20:42 <Gracenotes> thar you go. job done. raises for all.
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05:21:40 <Bike> i just want the fun answer, man. :(
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05:25:17 <Gracenotes> risky business being around engineers tho
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05:31:23 <zzo38> When people are trying to solve my Pokemon card puzzles I find that often people try many solutions that don't work (often believing they do work; sometimes the mistake is due to ignoring some important information).
05:32:11 <zzo38> Yes they are available online
05:33:17 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.* Replace the * with a number 1 to 5 (more might be added later)
05:33:33 <zzo38> For a glossary, see the file "terminology.txt" in the same directory.
05:33:59 <zzo38> (They are all plain text; no HTML or Unicode is used)
05:41:01 <Gracenotes> It has been a while since I've played, this or another CCG, so I don't have enough intuition for it, but I do like the idea of it. Do people make these for e.g. Magic? (I mean, that's Turing complete via tokens.)
05:41:18 <Gracenotes> I can see how some of the listed mechanics can interact.
05:41:46 <zzo38> Yes people do make them for Magic much more, or at least they used to; I don't know how common it is more recently.
05:42:05 <Gracenotes> (and 'white to checkmate' or 'black to live' is of course the older variant)
05:44:24 <zzo38> Older variant of what? Chess?
05:45:57 <Gracenotes> Puzzles using game mechanics. (One video game I like, DROD, is pretty much exclusively composed of this.)
05:50:32 <zzo38> There is also tsume shogi and other puzzles involving game mechanics I suppose too
05:53:30 <zzo38> And then there can be puzzle games somewhat based on other games
05:54:00 <zzo38> Gracenotes: Do you know anything about the rules of Pokemon card? If you have some questions, I can answer them.
05:54:08 <zzo38> (The glossary doesn't contain the rules for the game.)
05:56:52 <Gracenotes> at least partly, as every time I look at them they are deeper than I remember. probably more 'collectible' than 'card game', at the time.
05:58:33 <zzo38> Can you be specific?
06:01:36 <Gracenotes> I don't think I have any specific recollections, nor questions. I might not try my hand at solving your puzzles, but I quite like the format of them, which I had no clue about previously.
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06:03:31 <zzo38> I like these format too; is there anything specific you like about these formats, though, and other comments of it?
06:03:31 <zzo38> Solutions are actually provided if you change "puzzle" to "solution", although best is to try to figure it out by yourself
06:03:31 <zzo38> But if you don't want to try to solve them and just want an example of a solution you could look at one of them to see how the game works kind of
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06:07:37 <Gracenotes> hm, looking at the solution of one of them, it seems as though it does require a bit of domain-specific knowledge.
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06:08:30 <Gracenotes> I don't see all of the nice constraints falling into the place, where it magically happens that there's only one solution
06:08:58 <zzo38> Which solution are you viewing?
06:12:25 <zzo38> Well, some of the steps may be commutative, in this and other solutions.
06:12:54 <zzo38> For example, step 1 and 2 can be swapped.
06:13:10 <zzo38> Other than these kind of things, I believe the solutions to be unique.
06:16:21 <zzo38> Also, except in the first two puzzles, the opponent gets a turn too.
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06:18:02 <zzo38> The fifth puzzle is even more complicated than the others.
06:20:19 <Gracenotes> when people find bad solutions, is it because they misunderstand mechanics, or don't think of all ways opponent could counter, or stuff like that?
06:20:35 <zzo38> If you are sure you won't try it later, view that puzzle too and view that solution too (although perhaps first read the card data mentioned)
06:20:57 <zzo38> Gracenotes: Sometimes those are the reasons. Other times it is because they fail to read the entire file.
06:22:10 <zzo38> Do you think the glossary is good though, even only considering what you know about it? (Some of these things come from chess)
06:22:41 <zzo38> If you have any puzzles for Pokemon card or Magic: the Gathering or some other game, I would still like to see it please!
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06:28:38 <Gracenotes> glossary is a pleasant game, largely because of metagame exposition :)
06:29:28 <Gracenotes> s/game/read/, dunno where that came from. also, almost wrote game from.
06:31:07 <zzo38> Do you have any opinions on individual entries, suggestions for improvement, or new entries which could be added?
06:34:44 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:35:06 <Gracenotes> hm, not that I can think of. also, I do like the ASCII approximation of water symbol
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06:53:52 <zzo38> Some people like them; some other people do not like them. I do like these symbols, which is why I used them.
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07:49:16 <zzo38> Sometimes I see use of comments in an example computer program code which are placeholder for the other things that belong in its place. I think a better way would be use a chunk inclusion syntax of WEB, so that you can know it is not a comment.
07:49:52 <zzo38> (Furthermore, using the chunk inclusion syntax, it will actually compile and work properly, too.)
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12:16:27 <boily> good vegetarian morning!
12:17:41 <boily> Vorpal: ah, first time I've heard of that. I'd say go for unstable, fsdvo unstable.
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12:36:30 <quintopia> it's not vegetarian morning you know
12:36:54 <boily> it isn't vegetarian morning indeed, but yesterday night was.
12:37:09 <boily> (and I guess nutella toasts are vegetarian, no? at least the OJ was.)
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12:59:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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13:00:16 <Koen_> they're not my favourite type of biscuit but they're fine
13:00:42 <boily> quintopia: http://www.commercialbakeries.com/images/CookieOptions/CommericalCookiesProductsThumbBig.jpg
13:01:24 <quintopia> this subway didn't give me a receipt
13:02:11 <boily> 'tis a sad world where cookies aren't free to be freed.
13:03:04 <quintopia> i've never actually seen leaf shaped cookies before
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13:03:17 <quintopia> seem like they'd be hard to make at home
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13:05:10 <boily> quintopia: I think you can get cookie cutters for that, but you can get them in any respectable Canadian grocery.
13:05:24 <boily> I know I shouldn't, but it's very tempting...
13:05:32 <HackEgo> Frooxius: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:05:49 <quintopia> you're at the wrong end of canadia
13:07:46 <boily> bah. humbug. it may be the wrong end, but it's a pretty wrong end.
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13:11:51 <boily> quintopia: are you still in Newton?
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13:16:13 <boily> hellorick. hellomp. helloqy.
13:40:35 <boily> quintopia: would you like a box of «biscuits feuille d'érable»?
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13:50:41 <HackEgo> ter2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:06:57 <boily> quintopia: where is the approximate nowhere where you are at? I'll need that relevant info to send you the cookies.
14:10:00 <quintopia> boily: are you going to post them to me?
14:15:22 <boily> quintopia: I'd prefer to send them by submarine, but alas it is not practical in this reality-set. therefore, I'll have to do with Postes Canada and USPS.
14:16:30 <quintopia> send them to David Rutter, Gen. Delivery, Gorham, NH 03581. if they arrive in a week or less, i will get them.
14:17:36 <boily> you seem to be the travelling guy... oh well. let's do hope the postal services will be fast enough.
14:22:06 <boily> (I like our bilingual site... «Veuillez vérifier kind of biscuits»)
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15:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, you can't just announce your address on the internet like that!!
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15:40:57 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: so what, he just gave me the post office's address. he appröximates like a gentleman.
15:42:52 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: :̈)
15:49:40 <elliott> three seconds away from banning the diaeresis here!!
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17:05:31 <boily> back from lunch, and the diæresis is still alive. in heaven, everything is fine. you got your good thing, and I've got mine.
17:08:06 -!- Bike has joined.
17:08:57 <boily> the only proper time to eat gyros, kebabs, shishes and other shawarmas is when the sun is down.
17:14:50 <quintopia> i can't make the sun go down sorry
17:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover> the mental image i have is more interesting and delicious than whatever you actually ate
17:24:37 <kmc> "Nobody really styles their <html> element with { display: inline }, for the most part"
17:24:42 * boily has a mental image of Phantom_Hoover having a mental image of quintopia imagining eating a gyro.
17:25:05 <boily> kmc: “for the most part”???
17:26:13 <olsner> is it nonsense to set display: inline for the html element?
17:27:28 <boily> well... considering the state of everything web-based, it is only slightly nonsenser to inline <html>.
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17:30:41 <Bike> «"More Research Urgently Needed on Caffeine," says Journal of Caffeine Research» http://view.liebertpubmail.com/?j=fe631771746400747011&m=ff281776736c&ls=fdc615737c6004787d17787564&l=fe61157870640678741c&s=fe1f1079726c037e751c72&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe2317777464027b7c1375&r=0
17:31:53 <Bike> journal of trippin' research
17:36:26 <Fiora> "gosh I'm so excited for more caffeine research!!!!!" said the caffeine researcher, jittering as he frantically tried to come up with the words to describe the energetic feelings coursing through his body
17:36:58 <boily> «my glassware, let me show you it»
17:37:24 <kmc> unfortunately if you consume enough caffeine it stops doing anything at all
17:37:24 <olsner> is that a drug reference?
17:37:44 <Bike> caffeeine is a drug, yes
17:37:47 <kmc> or it starts curing headaches, depending on how you look at it
17:39:30 <Fiora> kmc: "if you consume enough caffeine it stops doing anything at all" // my life
17:40:08 <Bike> get off my lawn you punk druggies
17:41:04 <ion> `addquote <Fiora> "gosh I'm so excited for more caffeine research!!!!!" said the caffeine researcher, jittering as he frantically tried to come up with the words to describe the energetic feelings coursing through his body
17:41:08 <HackEgo> 1103) <Fiora> "gosh I'm so excited for more caffeine research!!!!!" said the caffeine researcher, jittering as he frantically tried to come up with the words to describe the energetic feelings coursing through his body
17:41:46 <Bike> everything's always lyttle lytton with you
17:41:50 <boily> that sounds like more work for me :p
17:41:51 <Bike> there's more to life than lytton!!
17:41:55 <kmc> there's a great rant about hippies in one of the mushroom books in my living room
17:42:29 <kmc> basically the author is tired of hippies asking him stupid questions about mushrooms and so devotes a page or so to attacking their whole attitude and worldview
17:42:56 <kmc> but it ends with basically "if you want to trip that's fine, just don't ask me dumb questions"
17:43:30 <Bike> which of these shrooms are like the ones the olmecs used to talk to Gilgamesh
17:43:50 <metasepia> The Olmec were the first major civilization in Mexico.
17:43:55 <metasepia> Mythology The semidivine king of Erech, a city of southern Babylonia, and hero of an epic collection of mythic tales, one of which tells of a flood that covered the earth.
17:43:59 <metasepia> mushroom definition: an enlarged complex aboveground fleshy fruiting body of a fungus (as a basidiomycete) that consists typically of a stem bearing a pileus; '''especially'''.
17:44:11 <metasepia> bike definition: '''chiefly Scottish''' a nest of wild bees, wasps, or hornets.
17:45:05 <boily> I completely fail to see the link made by a chiefly Scottish bike between ancient mexicans, ancient mesopotamians, and modern fungi.
17:45:21 <kmc> in practice "mushroom" is used to describe fruiting bodies of some ascomycetes as well
17:45:36 <kmc> modern fungot
17:45:36 <fungot> kmc: of course, i know
17:45:51 * boily is scared. very, very scared.
17:48:04 <fungot> olsner: process 2 killed. it's a mammal ( fnord) be top level?
17:48:45 <kmc> fungot: are you a mammal?
17:48:45 <fungot> kmc: but it doesn't answer my question dammit. you're right. i'm getting strange. mit scheme is
17:48:54 <Bike> mit scheme is a mammal.
17:49:02 <kmc> that's not surprising
17:49:36 * boily dons his +3 hazmat-mail of sentient bot warding
17:49:40 -!- douglass has joined.
17:49:55 <boily> (every piece of armour is *-mail. chain mail. scale mail. plate mail...)
17:51:43 <boily> say, do we have any D-class personel on hand in this channel?
17:52:16 <olsner> we used to have fungot?
17:52:16 <fungot> olsner: and some discordians say it's a clone of an operator
17:53:32 <boily> olsner: so fungot is a former D-class that got [REDACTED] into an IRC bot?
17:53:32 <fungot> boily: so " my client..." is
17:54:32 <kmc> fungot, attorney at law
17:54:32 <fungot> kmc: 1. it's not the size, it's the pty itself that eats it
18:00:08 <metasepia> Laukaa is a municipality of Finland.
18:00:42 <fizzie> My aunt and her family have a place in Laukaa.
18:01:01 <boily> according to the quotes...
18:01:05 <HackEgo> 823) <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
18:01:36 <fizzie> Also: huh. One of the local TV channels is showing a program about baking at 04:15am-04:40am. I wonder if that has something to do with 420.
18:03:03 <coppro> does anyone know a way to make my right shift key only work for things on the left-hand side of the keyboard?
18:03:12 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to explain where that quote came from?
18:03:12 <fungot> fizzie: i want to eat today :) prop. the best fnord
18:04:07 <fizzie> fungot: I'll feed you if you're helpful.
18:04:07 <boily> coppro: create a new kind of shift, xmodmap and/or create a new layout that uses that shift.
18:04:08 <fungot> fizzie: that's the entire point of forking and returning twice, or using cfunge_realerr.
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18:05:26 <olsner> iirc lshift and rshift are already separate modifiers but every key just maps to the same character with both left and right shift
18:05:31 <fizzie> Grep suggests it was extracted from "<fizziep> somewhere in the forests of laukaa." from #douglasadams of IRCnet in 2003-03-29.
18:06:12 <fizzie> olsner: That's not a true, at least in X.
18:06:12 <boily> olsner: iianm, lshift and rshift are separate keys, but they point to the same index in a key's definition.
18:06:42 <olsner> fizzie: how about the (linux) console keymaps?
18:07:01 <fizzie> olsner: I don't recall enough about that.
18:07:52 <coppro> can I get X to filter all keyboard commands through a daemon before going to other applications?
18:08:29 <coppro> (doing this with a kernel change would definitely be Not A Bad Idea I'm sure)
18:08:54 <boily> olsner: ♪ding♪ you have quotes.
18:08:57 <kmc> ksplice that shit
18:09:30 <olsner> ksplice was originally called keysplice and used for that exact purpose
18:10:20 <fizzie> There's a bit of evdev called "uinput" that you can use to make an input device from userland.
18:10:34 <fizzie> You could have X read that, and source it from a real evdev device.
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18:10:59 <fizzie> (Sounds like quite the fiddly thing.)
18:11:55 <fizzie> You'd probably need a xorg.conf with some custom Keyboard blockery, because -- IIRC -- by default X would read all keyboard(s), so you'd get both your injected events and the originals.
18:12:19 <olsner> `quote at least as on-topic
18:12:20 <HackEgo> 841) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
18:12:56 <coppro> olsner: thanks for that very helpful fact
18:13:02 <olsner> boily: I think that "..." is not a redaction, it's just a pause
18:14:28 <boily> olsner: woops. I'll change it.
18:16:32 <boily> meanwhile, I have this feeling that I should include alise's quotes somewhere...
18:17:48 <boily> @tell alise where art thou nowst?
18:18:14 <olsner> in the channel right now actually
18:19:24 <boily> olsner: you are alise?
18:19:39 <fungot> olsner: why do i need something to be desired, so it's all right, we are outside of the function
18:20:02 <boily> olsner: alise is the former D-class???
18:20:31 <fungot> olsner: more or less automagically result in what the reader uses, though it would need to install loggerhead is good to hack in
18:21:53 <boily> me brains are not happy. me need many more coffee today.
18:23:01 <boily> and may nobody come to me saying copumpkin is someone else without telling me who the someone else is.
18:23:51 <olsner> I think copumpkin has always been copumpkin
18:24:09 <boily> thanks. I feel reassured now.
18:24:32 <olsner> and I have always been me
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18:24:50 <fizzie> olsner: Except when it transformed into a cocarriage briefly, I think.
18:26:37 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:26:43 <boily> fizzie: well, that I understand. the link is fairy evident.
18:27:30 <fizzie> Did you know: Google Chromebook Pixel's touchpad is: "analyzed and honed using a laser microscope for exceptional smoothness and accuracy".
18:27:59 <Koen_> honed... that's when you cover it in honey right?
18:28:09 <fizzie> Covered in honey with lasers.
18:29:43 <boily> honing... isn't that like when you attract missiles with honey?
18:35:04 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
18:36:49 <boily> Thiora: the sulfur-bridged version of Fiora.
18:38:07 <kmc> ttants: theobromine, thiobromine, bromine
18:38:14 <kmc> (ttants = Things That Are Not the Same)
18:38:33 <kmc> where's shachaf :(
18:38:45 <kmc> I want to do my usual "shachaf: did you know X" thing
18:38:50 <kmc> but it seems silly if he's not actually here
18:39:06 <kmc> fizzie: yes
18:39:13 <Bike> let me just boot up my "shachaf simulation"
18:39:15 <Bike> fun fact 0 = 1
18:39:27 <kmc> but here goes anyway
18:39:39 <Taneb> Bike, I managed to parse that in such a way that it's true
18:39:49 <Taneb> "function factorial of 0 is 1"
18:40:01 <Bike> | n = n * fact (n - 1)
18:40:01 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how "ascii" and "iso8859-1" and "latin1" are all aliases for Windows-1252 on the Web
18:40:09 <kmc> Taneb: that's the joke
18:40:17 <kmc> it's SML syntax
18:40:18 <Taneb> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
18:40:24 <Bike> taneb's mind is blown
18:40:32 <Taneb> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
18:40:35 <kmc> ꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮh
18:40:42 <elliott> looks like shachaf parted because Fiora said I was asleep(?)
18:40:55 <Bike> well what's the point of being in an elliottless channel
18:43:42 <boily> kmc: what? are those... flowers???
18:43:46 <Bike> kmc: i can't see "Ed Balls" in news now without chuckling. thx
18:44:00 <Fiora> elliott: maybe it's coincidental?
18:44:33 <Bike> ~duck multiocular o
18:44:33 <metasepia> Multiocular O is the most rare and exotic glyph variant of Cyrillic letter O. This glyph variant can be found in certain manuscripts in the phrase .
18:45:01 <boily> Bike: can I eat your brains, so that I may gain understanding of the Duck?
18:45:24 <kmc> Bike: haha, this is my gift to you
18:45:45 <kmc> the phrase is «серафими многоꙮчитїи»
18:45:53 <kmc> "many-eyed seraphim"
18:45:53 <Bike> "Ed Balls tells #c4news if Cameron puts military action back on table, Labour will consider this" "haha, balls" -- my head
18:46:19 <kmc> as a job title, "shadow chancellor" sounds much cooler than it is
18:47:28 <Taneb> Bike, he used to be Secretary for Education
18:47:50 <Taneb> As far as schools were concerned, the British government was balls.
18:49:34 * boily subtly lurches over Bike with a pair of chopsticks and some light soy sauce
18:49:45 <kmc> the joke with ed balls isn't even "haha balls" although that can't hurt
18:49:55 <kmc> it's the amazing tweet he sent and the 2+ year running joke about it
18:50:49 <kmc> no fullstop even
18:50:55 <kmc> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ed-balls
18:54:03 <boily> olsner: if I were to include alise in the PDF, under which name shall I put him/her/them?
18:59:52 <boily> that. is. most. disturbing.
19:01:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:02:48 <mnoqy> that's probably not the word i'd use but okay
19:02:59 <olsner> what's disturbing about it?
19:05:17 <boily> elliott is even more ancient and insane that I previously thought.
19:05:37 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: ♪dőng♪ your quotes are ready.
19:06:54 <boily> it's not a diæresis, it's a double acute!
19:07:20 <boily> fyi, it's a Hungarian trick. hth. :D
19:07:48 <boily> speaking of Hungarian, have any of you tried sine mora?
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19:10:05 <olsner> hungarian tricks? have you been sipping the szoup again?
19:12:38 <fungot> boily: but no frog games on any... emergent properties :) i'm writing a brainfuck to c " compiler" portion that runs on .net.
19:15:36 <tertu> is ghci just really pokey
19:19:18 <tertu> it took about a minute to calculate fib 40
19:21:30 <kmc> it's slow but shouldn't be that slow
19:22:01 <kmc> well it depends on your fib though
19:22:23 <kmc> if you wrote fib n = fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) then you're doing O(2^n) work
19:22:32 <kmc> (more preciself O(fib(n)), the algorithm's output is its running time!)
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19:33:26 <fizzie> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs !! 40
19:33:30 <fizzie> That's a biggish number.
19:33:38 <fizzie> (Though not all *that* big.)
19:34:36 <kmc> > fix((0:).scanl(+)1)!!40 -- showing off
19:38:59 <fizzie> echo -e 'let fib 0 = 0; fib 1 = 1; fib n = fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) in fib 40' | time ghci => 173 seconds; echo '(define (fib n) (if (< n 2) n (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2))))) (fib 40)' | time csi => 47 seconds.
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19:39:56 <FireFly> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : uncurry (zipWith (+)) ((id &&& tail) fibs) in fibs !! 40
19:40:07 <boily> @tell Sgeo ♪d奥ng♪ you have quotes!
19:40:48 <FireFly> Is that a CJK pictograph in place of an 'i'?
19:40:59 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it was in place of an 'o'.
19:41:02 <boily> FireFly: no, in place of an o.
19:41:09 -!- Bike has joined.
19:41:33 <boily> FireFly: the more quotes I have to format, the opener the vowel.
19:41:47 <boily> (I should have used an 'a' when Phantom_Hoovering...)
19:42:05 <HackEgo> 57) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies \ 841) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
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19:42:37 <nooodl> > 102334155 -- now *that's* code golf
19:42:37 <boily> FireFly: your quote is in the file, if you want to check it.
19:42:39 <FireFly> What exactly is this pdf thing you're doing?
19:43:13 <boily> hm? oh, no. not at all.
19:43:20 <ion> > 0x6197ecb -- Aww, no golf.
19:43:28 * boily hides the evidence under the... darn. there is no rug here, only wooden floors.
19:43:52 <boily> > fib 40 -- just in case the function exists...
19:43:53 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `fix' (imported from Data.Function)
19:44:35 <boily> FireFly: I'm reformatting the wisdom and quotes, for posterity. and because I am not insane.
19:44:45 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: lexical error at character '\783'
19:44:56 <nooodl> (huh lambdabot doesn't know about the 102334155th unicode char??)
19:45:24 <Bike> @let fib n = let aux (f1,f2) = (f2,f1+f2) in iterate aux (0,1) !! n
19:45:30 <ion> nooodl: That wasn’t a character.
19:45:41 <Bike> @let fib n = let aux (f1,f2) = (f2,f1+f2) in fst $ iterate aux (0,1) !! n
19:45:55 <Bike> @let fib n = let aux (f1,f2) = (f2,f1+f2) in fst (iterate aux (0,1) !! n)
19:45:56 <nooodl> ion: how was that joke supposed to work with a single *existing* unicode char though!
19:46:11 <Bike> what am i missing here
19:46:43 <Bike> lambdabot: what's the deal!
19:46:52 <olsner> maybe fib is already defined?
19:46:53 <elliott> you defined fib three times
19:47:12 <Bike> well i wanted the one to override the other!
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19:47:29 <Bike> @help undefine
19:47:29 <lambdabot> undefine. Reset evaluator local bindings
19:47:30 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell is not enabled
19:47:45 <lambdabot> There's currently no way to undefine just one thing. Say @undefine (with no extra words) to undefine everything.
19:48:05 <Bike> @let fib n = let aux (f1,f2) = (f2,f1+f2) in fst $ iterate aux (0,1) !! n
19:48:21 <lambdabot> 434665576869374564356885276750406258025646605173717804024817290895365554179...
19:49:29 <Bike> when i do iterate like that does the compiler avoid generating code to actually build the list
19:49:39 <boily> @let tetration a b = foldr1 (^) $ replicate b a
19:49:48 <boily> > fib $ tetration 3 4
19:50:15 <Bike> if you wanted that i'd use a log definition of fib
19:50:20 <Bike> ("yes that would help")
19:52:11 <boily> even the tetration won't do. I guess g_64 is way off limits...
19:53:15 <Bike> compared to g_64, fib g_64 isn't that much bigger :p
19:54:25 <boily> I tried 3 ↑↑ 4 on my machine. forcefully kill -9ed the process after it gobbled a full 4 GB of ram...
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20:04:33 <fizzie> boily: 3 ↑↑ 4 has... approximately 3.6*10^12 decimal digits, if I read 'pedia right -- so 4 gigs sounds a bit small for storing the number.
20:04:35 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
20:04:40 -!- Bike has joined.
20:05:22 <boily> fizzie: well, it was growing, and I didn't want my machine to suddenly crash in the middle of good music playing in my headphones.
20:06:00 <Bike> "g_64" bam stored!!
20:06:04 <ion> > zipWith logBase <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:06:05 <lambdabot> [-0.0,NaN,Infinity,1.584962500721156,1.464973520717927,1.2920296742201791,1...
20:06:19 <Bike> boily: pipe g_64 to /dev/snd
20:06:30 <ion> > drop 50 $ zipWith logBase <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:06:31 <lambdabot> [1.0206920565661424,1.0202725752914699,1.0198697640046614,1.019482648379181...
20:06:57 <fizzie> "[-0.0,NaN,Infinity,1.584962500721156,..." is the best start for a sequence.
20:06:57 <ion> > drop 200 $ zipWith logBase <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:06:58 <lambdabot> [1.005042159409283,1.0050168635833612,1.0049918203018742,1.0049670258016374...
20:07:08 <boily> Bike: I like to pipe my swap partition to /dev/snd from time to time.
20:07:14 <Bike> ion: what is this exactly
20:07:16 <boily> ion: that is unholy.
20:07:38 <ion> bike: log fib_n / log fib_{n−1}
20:07:40 <boily> @tell shachaf ♪dıng♪ you have quotes.
20:08:14 <ion> Re: “approximately exponential”, i was curious about that.
20:08:40 <Bike> well it's roughly phi^ or whatever
20:09:18 <ion> > zipWith (/) <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:09:19 <lambdabot> [0.0,1.0,0.5,0.6666666666666666,0.6,0.625,0.6153846153846154,0.619047619047...
20:09:39 <Bike> well, that showed that pretty well
20:09:45 <ion> > drop 50 $ zipWith (/) <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:09:46 <lambdabot> [0.6180339887498949,0.6180339887498949,0.6180339887498949,0.618033988749894...
20:09:58 <Bike> that's 1/phi, of course
20:10:02 <Bike> known to its close friends as phi-1
20:11:02 <ion> If you find yourself escaping a slash with a backslash in regexps, you’re Doing It Wrong™.
20:11:03 <boily> you didn't see nothing.
20:11:07 <fizzie> More things should have \ as the reverse division operator. (a\b = b/a.)
20:11:25 <Bike> https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/377120854678585344 this is going well
20:12:04 <boily> “Something something Streisand something...’
20:12:09 <Bike> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/09/on-nsa.html said post
20:12:11 <Bike> get it while it's hot
20:12:31 <Bike> "Go after the implementation. Cryptography is almost always implemented in software -- and software is a disaster" lol :/
20:13:07 <fizzie> fungot: You're a disaster.
20:13:07 <fungot> fizzie: i installed wiliki source patches gdbm-ci, and had a simple reader macro in chicken" from google :p. but, this way i have already
20:13:15 <fizzie> Yeah, I'd say that confirms it.
20:15:11 <Bike> "Ugh MAIN macro, great. *WASH_Eyes_outWith_soap*" oh, i see
20:15:51 <Bike> #ifdef (OMG) if (moo) { ... } else #endif <-- oh
20:16:09 <metasepia> mooed, mooing, moos To emit the deep, bellowing sound made by a cow; low.
20:16:10 <kmc> re backdooring standards, have you seen https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/11/the_strange_sto.html
20:16:28 <kmc> tl;dr: one of the NIST recommended PRNGs makes no sense unless designing in a backdoor was a primary concern
20:17:44 <Roujo> kmc: But what if you *do* need a backdoor?
20:17:47 <Roujo> Fire safety and all
20:19:18 <boily> @tell tswett ♪տինկ♪ you have quotes!
20:19:18 <olsner> "The original author of OpenSSL thought it would be a fun way to learn C." o.O
20:25:12 <Taneb> Reasons why I should not be an actor: I managed to lose a prop in the 5 or so meters between the props table and the stage
20:27:36 <boily> Taneb: was it an orange?
20:27:45 <Taneb> It was a plastic shot glass
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20:47:33 <boily> before I reformat ZOMGMODULES, is he/she/they a singular person, or should they be conflagrated with someone else?
20:48:31 <mnoqy> zomgmodules is chris p., last i checked
20:49:11 <boily> mnoqy: oh, thanks!
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20:53:22 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: because you are a responsible adult.
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21:16:01 <Taneb> boily, I think the two oklos are two different people
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21:17:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, a wise man told me many years ago
21:17:44 <Taneb> I think it was oerjan
21:17:58 <Taneb> And by many years ago, I of course mean about two
21:18:59 <Taneb> Anyway, I am going to stalk sleep and kill it
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21:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> considering that fizzie and oerjan may have been answering based on information given to them by oko
21:23:32 <boily> fizzie is wise. oerjan is... uhm... wise too, I guess.
21:24:10 <Roujo> Welp. Not-bus time again
21:29:03 <boily> @tell zzo38 ♪moof♪ you have quotes!
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22:04:42 <elliott> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/dennis-rodman-north-korea-baby-name I don't understand anything any more
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22:51:21 <kmc> woah: python -c 'print u"\N{CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O}"'
22:52:21 <oerjan> python -c 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}"'
22:52:26 <oerjan> `python -c 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}"'
22:52:28 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}"' \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
22:53:11 <kmc> that's puzzling
22:53:23 <kmc> `run python -c 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}"'
22:53:25 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2603' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
22:53:32 <kmc> `run python -c 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}".encode("utf-8")'
22:55:49 <kmc> `run printf '#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\n\nprint unicodedata.lookup(sys.argv[1])\n' > bin/unicode && chmod +x bin/unicode
22:55:54 <kmc> `unicode SNOWMAN
22:55:55 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print unicodedata.lookup(sys.argv[1]) \ UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2603' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
22:56:04 <kmc> `run printf '#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\n\nprint unicodedata.lookup(sys.argv[1]).encode("utf-8")\n' > bin/unicode && chmod +x bin/unicode
22:56:10 <kmc> `unicode SNOWMAN
22:56:20 <kmc> `unicode CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O
22:56:53 <kmc> I started writing like eval(r'u"\N{'+sys.argv[1]+'}') and then I was like "... no"
22:57:16 <Bike> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS AND MACRON
22:58:13 <kmc> `run printf '#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\n\nprint u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8")\n' > bin/unicode && chmod +x bin/unicode
22:58:45 <kmc> `run unicode 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y' 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A' 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y'
22:58:47 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ NameError: name 'u' is not defined
22:58:57 <kmc> `run printf '#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\n\nprint u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8")\n' > bin/unicode && chmod +x bin/unicode
22:59:02 <kmc> `run unicode 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y' 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A' 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y'
22:59:11 <Bike> `unicode SNOWMAN
22:59:27 <Bike> so, you need to import unicodedata for something strings need anyway, huh
23:00:22 <kmc> U+034F COMBINING GRAPHEME JOINER
23:00:27 <kmc> "The name does not describe the function of this character. Despite its name, it does not join graphemes."
23:00:37 <Bike> does it at least combine
23:00:46 <oerjan> `run unicode 'LATIN MINUSCULE LETTER H' 'LATIN MINUSCULE LETTER T' 'LATIN MINUSCULE LETTER H'
23:00:48 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'LATIN MINUSCULE LETTER H'"
23:00:49 <Bike> or is everything i know a lie.
23:01:25 <oerjan> `run unicode 'LATIN SMALL LETTER H' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER T' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER H'
23:01:25 <kmc> maybe rewrite it to do a nearest edit distance match
23:01:26 <kmc> that could be fun
23:01:56 <kmc> I love that an international technical standard has an appendix which starts "There are two separate cantillation systems in the Hebrew Bible."
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23:07:32 <oerjan> <Gracenotes> don't you know, you can't be Floating and Integral at the same time. it's totally impossible <-- you make that sound like a challenge.
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00:50:19 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> and may nobody come to me saying copumpkin is someone else without telling me who the someone else is. <-- this may come as a shock to you, but copumpkin is also pumpkin. also, i know who alise is *MWAHAHAHA*
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01:08:08 <oerjan> @tell <boily> elliott is even more ancient and insane that I previously thought. <-- there are even more ancient names but they may be older than the quote database.
01:10:40 <oerjan> `run sed '/ .*//' quotes
01:10:41 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 6: unknown command: `/'
01:10:47 <oerjan> `run sed 's/ .*//' quotes
01:10:49 <HackEgo> <Aftran> \ <Slereah> \ <Quas_NaArt> \ <AnMaster> \ <Warrigal> \ <Quas_NaArt> \ <oerjan> \ <SimonRC> \ <Madelon> \ <reddit \ <fungot> \ <pikhq> \ IN \ <fizzie \ <fungot> \ <bsmntbombdood> \ IN \ <oerjan> \ IN \ <ehird> \ IN \ SUPLENTES \ PA \ <Deewiant> \ <ais523> \ <ehird> \ <zzo38> \ <oklopol> \ <ehird> \ <oklopol> \ <lacota> \ <oklopol> \ <ehi
01:11:31 <oerjan> IN UNIVERSO, the dimension traveller?
01:12:16 <oerjan> `run grep '^IN' quotes
01:12:17 <HackEgo> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe,
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01:13:10 <oerjan> the iterative nature of quote deletion means that the database's initial part is much more time than the final part
01:13:20 <oerjan> perhaps exponentially so
01:17:49 <oerjan> for some strange reason, alt-up... wait, my p key was stuck and that somehow caused alt-up not to work :P
01:19:01 <oerjan> also, keys shouldn't get stuck after just 3 months :(
01:22:12 <oerjan> although it's not really _that_ surprising. i already know that i cannot push many digit keys simultaneously and expect all to work (because i do this for some of tatham's puzzles which sometimes need me to mark a cell with a lot of digits.)
01:23:20 <elliott> oerjan: that applies to your keys in general, most likely
01:23:29 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key)
01:23:42 <oerjan> i can press 1234 and they all mark, but adding 5 messes that up.
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01:25:54 <oerjan> 34, 35, and 45 work, but not 345.
01:26:54 <oerjan> my old laptop didn't have that problem.
01:26:56 <elliott> you should read the article :p
01:27:13 <oerjan> yeah yeah but also i should eat ->
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02:03:27 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
02:03:31 <Fiora> (I don't think this was slisted yet?)
02:05:03 <Bike> maybe we could have an `slistlist to broadcast that there has been an slist
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02:36:38 <Sgeo> I might have an excuse to use *arbitrary language* at work
02:37:13 <Sgeo> Looking to use Tcl. [string map] is... er, convenient, although probably other languages do have similar functionality in their stdlib
02:37:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5590
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02:39:53 <oerjan> Sgeo: i suggest using more hungarian
02:40:32 <Sgeo> [string map] is pretty much literally what I want to accomplish
02:46:14 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> fizzie is wise. oerjan is... uhm... wise too, I guess. <-- I SENSE SOME HESITATION
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06:04:53 <HackEgo> LeFtLuGgAgE: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
06:07:45 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm sure boily was just uncertain between "wise" and some sort of word denoting "even wiser".
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08:52:17 <fizzie> "You've got 10G quota limit at /home directory by mistake. Mistake was in the 'newuser' script. As a result we just noticed /home is almost full with about 6% of space left. All /home quotas have been fixed, returned back to origins: 1G."
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12:34:49 <boily> good criossant morning!
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12:36:24 <boily> @tell oerjan I think the alise mystery got leaked yesterday. but, I happily have a git repo backing the whole thing in case the Revelation was False, and it can be easily unmerged.
12:37:06 <boily> @tell oerjan that wasn't an hesitation. it was... uh... only a pause. yeah. I was taking a breath, there. y'know, asthma and all that sort of thing...
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12:56:01 <metasepia> CYFB 101254Z 32027KT 30SM -SHSN OVC030 RMK SC8 CU ASOCTD
12:56:14 <boily> eh? no temperature???
12:57:39 <metasepia> AAXX 200000 40650 42960 00201 10278 20114 40008 58003
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14:51:54 <boily> I was exploring my old dev folders, and stumbled upon a (not quite bugless) implementation of the Munching Squares: http://pastebin.ca/2447507
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15:45:55 <metasepia> A blood-sucking African fly that transmits sleeping sickness etc.; the tsetse fly.
15:46:39 <Koen_> you know, around here blood-sucking flies are called mosquitoes
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15:47:40 <fizzie> Around here they are called #esoteric chatters.
15:48:14 * boily swats fizzie with a non-standard, unregulated metric fly swatter --------###
15:48:40 <Roujo> THINK OF THE SI CHILDREN!
15:49:12 <metasepia> CYUL 101500Z 06004KT 6SM -DZ BR BKN008 OVC012 16/15 A2997 RMK SF6SF2 SLP149 DENSITY ALT 200FT
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15:49:22 <Roujo> So... crappy weather, got it
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15:50:32 <boily> a whole week of pure «n'importe quoi», humidly served upon our heads.
15:51:18 <fizzie> Yesterday was the last day of summer, according to the headlines.
15:51:20 <Roujo> Pretty much. 28 tomorrow
15:51:32 <metasepia> EFHK 101520Z 08007KT 9999 FEW020 BKN095 16/12 Q1018 NOSIG
15:52:46 <boily> “Horse fly bites are painful, the bites of large specimens especially so. Most short tongued (short proboscid) species of horse flies use their knife-like mandibles to rip and/or slice flesh apart.”
15:52:58 <Bike> horse skin is tough.
15:53:21 <metasepia> EGNT 101520Z 35015KT 9999 SCT029 SCT035 15/09 Q1021
15:53:21 <Bike> that's not even getting into the growths, either..
15:53:38 <boily> trying to explain to horse flies that you aren't a horse is a lost and painful cause.
15:53:59 <Bike> most of them only speak greek, not french, ironically
15:54:21 <Bike> does anyone know how to make office365 play nice with an email client? pop3 and however that shit works
15:54:22 <boily> you talk to horse flies?
15:54:37 <Bike> well i /am/ a tsetse.
15:55:03 <Bike> But no, I don't speak any Greek, what makes you think I would?
15:56:36 <Bike> somehow i don't think that's actual greek!
15:56:53 <boily> probably not. it went through google translate, after all.
15:57:36 <Bike> ~den echo idea
15:57:36 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:58:02 <Bike> > fix ~echo den idea
15:58:04 <lambdabot> Pattern syntax in expression context: ~echoNot in scope: `den'
16:01:27 <Roujo> `complain ~den and > fix should be valid commands.
16:01:28 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:02:28 <Bike> > (fix (\f n -> if n = 0 then 1 else n * f (n - 1))) 10
16:02:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20: parse error on input `='
16:02:41 <Bike> > (fix (\f n -> if n == 0 then 1 else n * f (n - 1))) 10
16:02:55 <Roujo> Oh, so > fix exists?
16:02:57 -!- nooodl has joined.
16:03:04 <Bike> fix is a function.
16:03:16 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
16:03:29 <Roujo> `complain > fix shouldn't exist for my previous complaint about it not existing to be valid
16:03:30 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:04:47 <Bike> well, it doesn't. > is just eval, and "> fix" isn't a distinct thing.
16:05:12 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
16:05:17 <Roujo> So they're not the same
16:05:23 <Bike> > (1+) . (fix (\f n -> if n == 0 then 1 else n * f (n - 1))) 4
16:05:24 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable c0)
16:05:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: lexical error at character '\SYN'
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16:51:17 <boily> back from lunch, and I still don't know where the quotes end at.
16:51:40 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:54:56 <boily> s/quotes/complaints/
16:55:08 <boily> which, as strange as it may appear at first, are two different things.
17:11:15 <fizzie> `complain about the general unfairness of life.
17:11:16 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
17:11:23 <fizzie> That's a useful device.
17:12:04 <Bike> `head complaints
17:12:29 <Bike> `cat complaints
17:13:35 <HackEgo> cat: complains: No such file or directory
17:13:40 <HackEgo> cat: complain: No such file or directory
17:14:51 <boily> (meanwhile, two of our support guys are having a heated discussion on our intranet IRC, trying to put our mail server back online. it's fun to watch :D)
17:23:20 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:25:03 <Roujo> boily: Are you talking about `complain?
17:26:17 <boily> Roujo: probably. I'm in a post-lunch induced retrogradation of my mental capacities, so I can't assert nothing atm. hth.
17:26:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: assert: not found
17:27:11 <Roujo> `complain boily doesn't know how to read the complain file. Please fix.
17:27:12 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
17:28:20 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
17:29:10 <Roujo> `relcome SingingBoyo
17:29:14 <HackEgo> SingingBoyo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:31:39 <Roujo> boily: What did you go eat?
17:32:04 <boily> Roujo: pulled pork sandwich with a bottle of curiosity cola, at the «Dépanneur le Pick-Up».
17:32:40 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:32:46 <Roujo> Never heard of it, though
17:32:57 <Roujo> `complain I should have heard of it but haven't until now.
17:32:58 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
17:33:53 <boily> Roujo: http://www.fentimans.com/soft_drinks
17:34:19 <Roujo> Oooh, it even has water
17:34:27 <Roujo> And carbonated, at that
17:34:39 -!- Roujo has left ("Off I go!").
17:34:43 -!- Roujo has joined.
17:34:56 <Roujo> CTRL+W to close the cola window
17:35:01 <Roujo> Closed the channel tab instead
17:35:15 <Roujo> RIP my voice, 2013-2013
17:35:43 <boily> elliott: can you voice me, now that Roujo's Monopoly has ended? pretty please with watery eyes like a young high school girl in a romance anime?
17:36:27 <Roujo> Do you have a nice skirt and knee-high socks?
17:36:37 <Roujo> Because that's the key
17:36:47 <boily> not yet, sadly. but I can go fetch a rubber horse head quickly!
17:37:01 <Roujo> I'm not quite sure that it would do
17:37:11 <Roujo> `complain I don't have a horse head. D:
17:37:12 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
17:37:13 <boily> who knows. elliott, what do you think?
17:37:21 <Roujo> Yeah, it's up to elliott now
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17:40:28 <boily> Roujo: getting a hold of a skirt and socks might be a little bit difficult in my case. my friends object to lending me that kind of accessories, under pretext that «t'aimerais trop ça».
17:40:51 <Roujo> Good call, I guess? =P
17:41:06 <Roujo> I wore a dress on stage, once. We did Les Belles Soeurs in High School. =P
17:41:12 <Roujo> Had to wear makeup and all.
17:41:56 <fizzie> Is that... is that a Hexham company?
17:42:30 <boily> fizzie: what, fentiman's?
17:42:36 <fizzie> It says "Fentimans UK, 6 Rear Battle Hill, Hexham" in the bottom.
17:42:48 <fungot> boily: ( except when i'm wasting time on such fnord now and then
17:43:06 <fizzie> It sounds... significant.
17:43:26 <fizzie> (Also a street called "Rear Battle Hill" sounds slightly dirty.)
17:43:56 <boily> I... I am seriously shaken, there.
17:44:23 <boily> (also, there aren't any "'"s in the name, apparently.)
17:44:35 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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17:45:27 <boily> `learn fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
17:46:50 <nooodl> "The world’s best cola" - The Guardian
17:46:58 <nooodl> hexham, home of the world's best cola
17:47:10 <fizzie> Hexham, home of the world's best everything.
17:47:38 <Taneb> Hexham is delicious
17:47:41 <fizzie> I can't find who's selling that thing in Finland. Given the source, it sounds like a kind of a must-have product.
17:47:56 <fizzie> Do you get that Hexham feeling when you drink their things?
17:48:17 <boily> I never went to any part of the UK, so I can't relate :(
17:48:17 <Taneb> fizzie, I ate like half of Hexham last week
17:48:32 <Taneb> boily, Fentimans is sold in Canada
17:48:47 <Taneb> fizzie, Rear Battle Hill is just the rear of Battle Hill
17:49:07 <Taneb> So called because there never was a battle fought there, ever
17:49:11 <boily> Taneb: of course it is sold here. I had one for lunch!
17:49:27 <nooodl> fizzie: i was looking up if it was easy to get around here too!
17:49:43 <boily> imo, their ginger beer is the best.
17:49:59 <Taneb> I prefer the cola. The shandy isn't bad
17:50:24 <boily> we don't seem to have the shandy here, nor the cool ginger beer.
17:50:27 <nooodl> fentimans.be exists but it's the worst website i've ever experienced.
17:51:01 <Taneb> nooodl, drinkfentimans.com is worse
17:51:41 <fizzie> There's some Finnish "purchasing solutions for professionals in the HoReCa sector" company who, according to their news page, have it in their selections, but that's probably not a place that'd sell for end users.
17:51:43 <Taneb> It's one of those sites entirely written in Flash
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17:51:57 <Roujo> I just got kicked in the head for wondering aloud why Google Glass doesn't use C#
17:52:22 <boily> Roujo: kicked by a coworker?
17:52:33 <Roujo> Well, "aloud" on another channel
17:52:40 <Roujo> On another network
17:52:43 <fizzie> (Their ginger ale seems easier to find than the cola.)
17:53:46 <Roujo> I mean, I know it's cool to hate on C# and all
17:54:01 <Roujo> But if you'd use it on anything, wouldn't Glasses be a good call?
17:56:47 <Roujo> (Then again, my job is party to code in C#, plus I really like bad puns, so I'm probably biased.)
17:57:54 * boily just understood the pun.
17:59:03 <Taneb> I could go into like a dozen shops in Hexham and buy Fentimans
17:59:27 <boily> you Hexhamites and your decadent lifestyles...
17:59:48 <Roujo> `complain Seeing bad puns doesn't happen often enough > complaints/hats
17:59:50 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:00:00 <kmc> that's an awesomely bad pun Roujo
18:00:07 <kmc> also it's not that cool to hate on C#
18:00:17 <kmc> it's like a better Java, and the alternative for Glass would be Java no?
18:00:30 <Roujo> I don't know what's cool and not cool, apparently =P
18:00:37 <kmc> not knowing what's cool is v. cool
18:00:45 <Roujo> I do all of my work on C# and Java
18:00:57 <fizzie> Why do Amazon.co.uk listings not show anything about shipping to the country listed in my account. It's all about UK delivery.
18:01:04 <Gregor> C# is like a better Java but with less being sued by Oracle and more being sued by Microsoft.
18:05:06 <Roujo> Hmmm... If I teach programming to my SO using Brainfuck, will that be a good thing or bad thing in the long run?
18:05:19 <Roujo> Assuming it doesn't kill her outright, of course
18:05:41 <Roujo> That's always a good assumption to make
18:06:09 <fizzie> If it doesn't kill her outright, it'll make her stronger, and then she can overpower you and escape the Brainfuck study sessions. (Something to keep in mind.)
18:06:29 <boily> to have a strong SO to conquer the world...
18:08:52 <olsner> also keep in mind that some people who learn brainfuck end up getting their brain replaced by a brick
18:10:25 <boily> don't break my dreams of having a powerful Master of the Earth SO who Knows Brainfuck!
18:11:15 <Roujo> OUR SOS WILL RULE THE WORLD
18:17:12 <olsner> maybe you should just become eachother's SO, then you won't have to teach anyone brainfuck
18:17:20 <olsner> (assuming you already know it)
18:18:49 <boily> I have no problems with the skirts and socks and horses, but I don't think our SOs are going to agree.
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18:29:52 <Roujo> `complain about horses
18:29:53 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:30:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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18:32:46 <boily> `complain this command is a hack! I protest!
18:32:47 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:35:52 <metasepia> Your divination: "Enveloping" to "Enveloping"
18:38:54 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
18:40:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
18:41:49 <metasepia> Your divination: "Retiring" to "Sojourning"
18:42:37 <HackEgo> fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
18:46:12 <Taneb> `learn metasepia knows the weather at your nearest airport.
18:46:27 <Taneb> `learn metasepia knows the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
18:47:05 <Roujo> boily: Why are you complaining about `complain?
18:47:12 <Roujo> Isn't that a tad too meta?
18:47:28 <Taneb> `complain `complain sucks
18:47:29 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:47:51 <boily> `complain Roujo isn't meta enough.
18:47:52 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:48:18 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
19:05:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:06:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.690
19:09:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:14:53 <boily> Vorpal: ♪vietnam's currency♪ you have quotes!
19:16:18 <Roujo> `complain that I'm not sure I even have quotes
19:16:19 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
19:18:34 <boily> elliott: you are a cocoonspirator to the repo.
19:18:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cocoonspirator?: not found
19:19:14 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in catterpillar silk
19:19:32 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:19:35 <boily> ~duck catterpillar
19:19:39 <metasepia> A trademark used for a tractor equipped with continuous chain treads.
19:19:54 <boily> `learn A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
19:23:13 <Roujo> `complain in general
19:23:15 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
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20:29:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bf: not found
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20:37:46 <boily> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-].
20:37:59 <boily> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
20:38:36 <boily> stop breaking poor bots, you bully.
20:43:13 <fizzie> The initial [+] does nothing, incidentally.
20:43:47 <Roujo> Well, it does something if the starting cell has something in it
20:43:58 <Roujo> I'm not assuming anything here =P
20:44:08 <Roujo> So I take it EgoBot doesn't have any time limit
20:44:21 <fizzie> You ran it as a self-contained program, you can assume an empty tape.
20:44:22 <Roujo> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
20:44:38 <Roujo> fizzie: I don't want to assume anything
20:44:45 <Roujo> I don't even want to assume that I don't assume anything
20:44:53 <Roujo> I just go and see what happens
20:45:10 <Roujo> Preparing to any eventuality, until death does me part
20:45:18 <fizzie> You can't assume that it's going to happen the same way again, though.
20:45:19 <boily> Roujo: cf. “Sussman attains enlightenment”.
20:45:22 <Roujo> ±5%, 19 times out of 20
20:45:44 <boily> Roujo: you're a bit too early. wait for November's elections :D
20:45:49 <boily> Roujo: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html
20:46:30 <Roujo> I don't read kanji, boily my dear
20:46:39 <boily> Roujo: justement. étudie! :D
20:47:09 <boily> there are like, what... only a few of them? it doesn't take no time at all, I swear.
20:47:11 <fizzie> Huh; I *thought* EgoBot had some sort of a message on timeout, but it indeed appears not true.
20:47:33 <nooodl> there's only like, three alphabets, what is even the issue
20:47:36 <Roujo> boily: I'm doing perfectly fine with romanization =P
20:47:52 <Roujo> Although I've been wanting to learn for the longest time
20:48:26 <boily> I think Japanese is easier than Haskell.
20:56:35 <boily> time to go brave the weather déchaînée and try to get back home safely.
20:56:39 <metasepia> CYUL 102047Z 11003KT 2 1/2SM -DZ BR FEW008 OVC011 19/18 A2994 RMK SF2SF6 SLP139 DENSITY ALT 500FT
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21:59:13 <Roujo> `run echo Meow~~ > cat
21:59:39 <Roujo> `run cat cat > cat
21:59:42 <HackEgo> cat: cat: input file is output file
21:59:56 <Roujo> `run cat cat | cat > cat
22:00:36 <Roujo> `run echo Meow~~ > cat
22:00:45 <Roujo> `run cat cat | echo > cat
22:01:00 <Roujo> `run echo Meow~~ > cat
22:01:33 <Roujo> `run cat run | echo > cat
22:01:38 -!- itsy has joined.
22:01:57 <Roujo> `run cat run > cat
22:02:10 <Roujo> `run cat cat | echo
22:02:23 -!- tromp has joined.
22:02:29 <Roujo> `run echo Meow~~ > Meow~~
22:02:45 <Roujo> `run cat Meow~~ | echo
22:02:56 <Roujo> `run cat run | cat
22:03:06 <Roujo> `run cat run | cat > run
22:03:27 <Roujo> Does what it's supposed to do
22:03:31 <Roujo> Doesn't do it right
22:03:46 <Roujo> Does it in a completely weird and all kinds of wrong-way
22:03:57 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
22:05:16 -!- Bike has joined.
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22:15:07 <fizzie> Roujo: The > in the pipeline truncates the output file before the first part has time to run, possibly.
22:16:50 <fizzie> `run echo foo > foo; (cat foo; echo bar) | sh -c "cat > foo"; cat foo; rm foo # race conditions are fun
22:16:50 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
22:16:55 <fizzie> `run echo foo > foo; (cat foo; echo bar) | sh -c "cat > foo"; cat foo; rm foo # race conditions are fun
22:17:09 -!- Bike has joined.
22:17:36 <fizzie> There you go. Without the sh -c, that would be a consistent "bar" only.
22:18:48 <fizzie> And in `run cat run | cat > run the shell will open-and-truncate "run" as a part of preparing the pipeline, before exec'ing the "cat run".
22:19:47 <fizzie> You could make it work with `run cat run | cat | sponge run if sponge were installed on HackEgo, which it isn't.
22:22:46 <olsner> reads stdin to memory then writes it to the file after reaching the end of input?
22:25:19 <fizzie> `run echo foo > foo; (cat foo; echo bar) | (sleep 1; tee foo > /dev/null); cat foo; rm foo # poor man's sponge
22:25:34 <fizzie> (Fits one pipe buffer's worth of stuff, and only if it's done in a second.)
22:26:26 <fizzie> (Maybe the subshell would already have meant that plain (sleep 1; cat > foo) could've been okay.)
22:30:05 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
22:31:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:38:43 <Fiora> Bike: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Fj0_IJ4PWQg/Ui93TmpTK_I/AAAAAAAAASc/NQW8D6N19_g/s1600/Untitled-1.png
22:40:29 <elliott> I would have preferred goatse
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22:42:43 <kmc> uh should i click that link at work or no
22:43:02 <fizzie> I'm sure some could categorize it as "obscene material".
22:43:09 <elliott> it depends how much your boss hates social media
22:43:14 <fizzie> But perhaps it's not obvious-at-a-glance.
22:43:47 <kmc> i think one of the little icons should be goatse
22:44:28 <fizzie> Whoever made it seems to also have run out of imagination, because the left half of the little icons is just a copy of the right half.
22:47:04 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
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23:24:19 <Roujo> I'll just stick with `run cat run
23:24:25 <Roujo> But thanks, fizzie =)
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23:39:23 <kmc> `unicode PILE OF POO
23:39:25 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'PILE OF POO'"
23:39:46 <kmc> `unicode INVISIBLE TIMES
23:40:20 <Bike> `unicode COMBINING PENIS ABOVE
23:40:21 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'COMBINING PENIS ABOVE'"
23:40:38 <kmc> `unicode ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR HORSE DUNG
23:40:40 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR HORSE DUNG'"
23:40:48 <kmc> guess it has an old version of the spec :(
23:41:11 <Bike> "Comments: fimus equinus"
23:43:13 <kmc> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
23:43:30 <kmc> `unicode LEFTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN ABOVE RIGHTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN
23:43:40 <kmc> `unicode CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY
23:43:42 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY'"
23:43:57 <kmc> `unicode GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH DASIA AND PERISPOMENI AND PROSGEGRAMMENI
23:44:10 <kmc> that's the first of these I can actually render (v. poorly)
23:44:18 <kmc> I guess not including INVISIBLE TIMES
23:44:55 <Bike> can successfully not render invisible times
23:45:37 <kmc> `unicode OX
23:45:38 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'OX'"
00:14:19 <Roujo> The rest was just squares
00:14:24 <Roujo> Apart from INVISIBLE TIMES
00:14:41 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'GOAT'"
00:14:50 <Roujo> `unicode GOAT RULER OF THE DEEP
00:14:51 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'GOAT RULER OF THE DEEP'"
00:14:59 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'TR\xc3\x89MA'"
00:15:05 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'UNICODE'"
00:15:11 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'HAT'"
00:15:43 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'A'"
00:15:52 <Roujo> `unicode LATIN LETTER
00:15:53 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'LATIN LETTER \x16'"
00:15:58 <Roujo> `unicode LATIN LETTER B
00:16:00 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'LATIN LETTER B'"
00:16:14 <Roujo> `unicode GREEK LETTER CAPITAL PHI
00:16:15 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'GREEK LETTER CAPITAL PHI'"
00:16:24 <Roujo> I don't even know what I'm doing, tbh
00:16:32 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'CAT'"
00:16:37 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'NOT CAT'"
00:16:39 <Roujo> `unicode UNDEFINED
00:16:41 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'UNDEFINED'"
00:16:44 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'NULL'"
00:16:55 <Roujo> `unicode '; DROP TABLE CHARACTERS; --
00:16:56 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name ''; DROP TABLE CHARACTERS; --'"
00:17:01 <Roujo> Now that's just sad
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00:17:15 <Roujo> `unicode "; DROP TABLE CHARACTERS; --
00:17:17 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: 'undefined character name \'"; DROP TABLE CHARACTERS; --\''
00:20:47 <Roujo> Apparently, SQL injection attacks don't affect unicode characters
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01:55:16 <Bike> thank god not everything involving "table" uses sql
02:03:54 <ion> U+110E4 BOBBY TABLES
02:06:28 <ion> I meant, U+110E48
02:16:28 <Bike> https://twitter.com/nottechmeme it's beautiful
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04:01:05 <lambdabot> boily said 15h 24m 40s ago: I think the alise mystery got leaked yesterday. but, I happily have a git repo backing the whole thing in case the Revelation was False, and it can be easily unmerged.
04:01:05 <lambdabot> boily said 15h 23m 58s ago: that wasn't an hesitation. it was... uh... only a pause. yeah. I was taking a breath, there. y'know, asthma and all that sort of thing...
04:01:54 <oerjan> @tell boily Good, good. Well, not the asthma.
04:05:32 <ion> What’s the alise mystery?
04:06:44 <oerjan> who alise is, of course.
04:06:58 <HackEgo> 91) <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf \ 95) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... \ 98) <fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia \ 102) <A
04:07:42 <oerjan> in soviet russia, fungot fnords the state.
04:07:42 <fungot> oerjan: it looks vaguely serious but crap... lost my program? ( and vice-versa)
04:08:03 <oerjan> fungot: it's ok the su got disbanded anyway.
04:08:03 <fungot> oerjan: no nothing. but is it dynamically extensible, which interactive operation is a subset
04:15:52 <ion> What’s the Revelation and what’s the “whole thing” you have in git?
04:16:08 <Bike> the revelation is the answer to the alise mystery
04:22:20 <oerjan> ion: the git thing is presumably the revisions to his wisdom/quote formatting
04:25:37 <Sgeo> boily is missing so many more revelations
04:25:39 <Sgeo> Or at least one
04:25:58 <Sgeo> `pastequotes uorygl
04:26:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14740
04:26:04 <Bike> the apocalypse of john
04:26:17 <Sgeo> `pastequotes ihope
04:26:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10538
04:27:44 <oerjan> i don't think he's used ihope since the quote database started.
04:28:07 <Sgeo> `pastequotes warrigal
04:28:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28897
04:28:41 <Sgeo> At least one of those is not #esoteric
04:29:26 <oerjan> the aftran one, i presume
04:30:17 <oerjan> it's no. 65, i guess there remains more of the old quotes than i thought.
04:30:41 <Sgeo> "<zzo38> There is Haskell program “pandoc” to convert formats, so I
04:30:41 <Sgeo> make “panchess” which is the similar thing but for chess."
04:30:53 <Sgeo> How many chess formats are there?
04:31:10 <Sgeo> pgn, anything else?
04:31:22 <Bike> algebraic notation?
04:31:39 <oerjan> well there's the algebraic one, the old british whatchamacallit, expanded algebraic whatchamacallit...
04:31:58 <oerjan> and being zzo38, i assume he knows other obscure ones.
04:32:58 <oerjan> probably including for chess variants.
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04:33:59 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_notation#Notation_for_telegraph_and_radio fascinating
04:36:12 * oerjan wondered why the section link didn't work, then realized he'd included "fascinating"
04:39:15 <ion> `? mojibake
04:39:16 <HackEgo> mojibake _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
04:46:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8661
04:47:08 <oerjan> hm i suspect ` must be something in regex
04:47:28 <Bike> `pastelogs complain
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04:47:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16103
04:47:41 <oerjan> i think that will give too much
04:48:01 <oerjan> but i realized ^ is the problem.
04:48:13 <Bike> i just wanted to see if it was empty.
04:48:59 <oerjan> `pastelogs > [`]complain
04:49:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15733
04:50:18 <Bike> `run cat $(which complain)
04:50:19 <oerjan> except for it containing a complaint about me. sheesh, the nerve...
04:50:20 <HackEgo> echo "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
04:50:27 <Bike> `cat complaints
04:50:48 <Bike> `complain complaints is empty
04:50:49 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
04:50:52 <Bike> `cat complaints
04:50:57 <oerjan> `run echo test >>test; cat test
04:51:01 <HackEgo> echo bash- >> /dev/null \ test
04:51:02 <Bike> `cat bin/complaints
04:51:15 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `tst': No such file or directory
04:51:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?complaints: not found
04:51:22 <oerjan> `run echo test >>test; cat test
04:52:49 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Sep 6 22:35 complaints -> /dev/null
04:54:03 <oerjan> well that _is_ tradional, i guess.
04:55:20 <oerjan> oh well `pastelogs exists.
04:58:59 <oerjan> @tell <Roujo> Oooh, it even has water <-- soft drinks without water are not recommended
05:02:36 <oerjan> @tell Roujo Oooh, it even has water <-- soft drinks without water are not recommended
05:03:03 <oerjan> `complain @tell _still_ doesn't strip <>s from nicks. or does it?
05:03:05 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
05:03:14 <oerjan> @tell <oerjan> FOR SCIENCE!
05:04:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Roujo.
05:07:39 <oerjan> apparently google translate thinks t'aimerais trop ça is lithuanian.
05:09:22 <oerjan> @ask boily What's "t'aimerais trop ça", google translate seems clueless
05:12:21 <oerjan> i see the hexham conspiracy thickens.
05:13:18 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
05:14:12 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:15:21 <Bike> hay chi hua hua
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06:38:19 <coppro> discovery: my school has an OED subscription
06:38:32 <coppro> there goes 20 hours of my life
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07:00:24 <fizzie> Can you read the whole thing in 20 hours?
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07:17:27 <coppro> no, but I imagine that's roughly how much time I'll waste with it
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07:20:44 <HackEgo> shubshub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:02:44 <oerjan> fizzie: fatal fungot failure!
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08:06:15 <fizzie> (Restarting fungot during a meeting: so bad?)
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08:08:39 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
08:08:40 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
08:08:40 <myndzi> /| c.c |\ /< | | /| c.c >\ | /| |/´\ c.c /|
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12:31:45 <boily> good stupid morning!
12:32:50 <boily> @tell oerjan «t'aimerais trop ça.» → “you'd like that way too much”.
12:35:36 <boily> bien le bonjour, Taneb.
12:36:31 <Taneb> I got my copy of Ryan North's To Be Or Not To Be today
12:37:55 <boily> as seen through the Amazon, it looks very interesting!
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12:41:54 <boily> Roujo-san gokigen'yō.
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13:07:47 <fizzie> Hm. 2.3215e+54 is a curious value for a probability density function to have.
13:09:09 <boily> fizzie: dirac pulse?
13:09:35 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatoon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatchewan fuck you canada
13:10:58 <fizzie> boily: It's an EM-estimated GMM, but I think there was some forced clamping in the training data, so there's probably quite the sharp peak at the clamping edge.
13:11:53 <boily> bleh. couldn't you smooth that?
13:12:49 <fizzie> I guess, though I'm not sure how much it matters.
13:14:16 <fizzie> The variances of the (8) Gaussian components seem to be 0.0041, 0.0002, 0.0012, 0.0001, 0.0339, 1e-8, 0.0090 and 0.0480. No points for guessing which component mean equals the clamping value.
13:15:56 <boily> «cachez ce 1e-8 que je ne saurais voir.»
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13:39:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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14:03:12 <Roujo> `complain `pastewisdom doesn't actually past anything
14:03:13 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
14:03:25 <Roujo> `complain s/past/paste/g
14:03:27 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
14:03:35 <Roujo> `complain s/pastee/paste/g
14:03:36 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
14:03:49 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 1m 12s ago: Oooh, it even has water <-- soft drinks without water are not recommended
14:04:25 <Roujo> @tell oerjan Oooh, it even has water <-- soft drinks without water are not recommended <-- Are you a soft drink? Didn't think so. Then you don't know the things that I've seen...
14:04:40 <Roujo> Also, wooo, I have voice again
14:05:26 <Roujo> boily: Roujo-san gokigen'yō. <-- Nani? =P
14:08:11 <boily> Roujo: ごきげんよう 《ご機嫌よう; 御機嫌よう》 (int) (1) (uk) how do you do?; nice to meet you; (2) adieu; farewell; bon voyage
14:11:29 <boily> Roujo: quite the formal version of the plebeian “oh hai”, but yes.
14:12:13 <Taneb> I'd say "Ciao", boily and Roujo, or "Good day"
14:13:02 <Roujo> boily: Say I want to learn me a japanese for great good
14:13:05 <Roujo> Where should I start?
14:13:31 <boily> Roujo: if we ever meet, I could lend you my schoolbooks.
14:14:09 <Taneb> boily, Roujo, do you have a Taneb/elliott thing going on
14:14:16 <Roujo> `run echo " He's also a NaniDispenser." >> wisdom/boily
14:14:22 <Taneb> ie. live in the same place but have never met
14:14:46 <Roujo> boily is the brother of one of my friends
14:15:00 <Roujo> And yeah, we both live in Montréal
14:15:03 <Taneb> Did you find this channel independently?
14:15:23 <Roujo> I think I just followed ais523 in here
14:15:34 <Roujo> Either ais523 or oerjan, can't remember
14:15:43 <Taneb> I got here from the wiki, and elliott's been here pretty much forever
14:15:49 <Roujo> I spent a couple of week here before realizing who boily was
14:16:21 <Roujo> `run echo << wisdom/boily
14:16:22 <HackEgo> bash: warning: here-document at line 0 delimited by end-of-file (wanted `wisdom/boily')
14:16:34 <Roujo> `run echo < wisdom/boily
14:16:43 <Roujo> I don't know what that actually did
14:17:13 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. \ He's also a NaniDispenser.
14:17:41 <Roujo> `run sudo s/ / /g | wisdom/boily
14:17:43 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/boily: Permission denied \ bash: sudo: command not found
14:17:54 <Taneb> Don't sudo it, it's on root anyway
14:18:12 <Roujo> boily: You seem to be implying that I know what I'm doing
14:18:33 <boily> let me re`learn myself there... :P
14:18:44 <Roujo> `run sed s/sudo/sed/g | sudo s/ / /g | wisdom/boily
14:18:58 <boily> `learn boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser.
14:19:08 <Roujo> I think I broke something
14:19:47 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/boily: Permission denied \ bash: sudo: command not found
14:19:51 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go.
14:20:00 <Roujo> Wow. That took a while.
14:20:43 <Roujo> `run sed s/(.)/\1/g
14:20:45 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `sed s/(.)/\1/g'
14:23:22 <boily> `run echo poulet | sed -i 's/(.)/\1/g'
14:23:24 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 10: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
14:23:53 <boily> `run echo poulet | sed -i 's/(.)/\0/g'
14:24:21 <HackEgo> ♪♪ Freedom run away... ♪♪
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15:14:28 <metasepia> CYUL 111500Z 22011G16KT 10SM FEW006 FEW240 27/22 A2991 RMK CF1CI2 CF TR CF TR SLP127 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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15:16:02 <boily> Roujo: I'm cumulating today's METARs at CYUL. so far I have 7 entries: http://pastebin.ca/2448292
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15:16:26 <Roujo> So the ceiling is going up
15:16:38 <Roujo> Which is pretty cool if you're 2k feet tall
15:17:42 <lambdabot> boily said 2h 44m 51s ago: «t'aimerais trop ça.» → “you'd like that way too much”.
15:17:42 <lambdabot> Roujo said 1h 13m 16s ago: Oooh, it even has water <-- soft drinks without water are not recommended <-- Are you a soft drink? Didn't think so. Then you don't know the things that I've seen...
15:18:28 <boily> Roujo: the layer at 24 000' is thickening. air pressure is still quite wobbly. I guess we're set to have interesting storms.
15:22:23 <oerjan> <Roujo> `complain `pastewisdom doesn't actually past anything <-- that's a feature of `paste which i may be the one who programmed.
15:22:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
15:22:43 <Roujo> Well that's just wrong
15:22:48 <Roujo> It doesn't actually paste anything
15:23:19 <Roujo> `run cat cat >> bin/pastewisdom
15:23:30 <oerjan> will you bloody stop that
15:23:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/ \ /hackenv/bin/pastewisdom: 3: Meow~~: not found
15:24:06 <Roujo> I thought it was echo Meow~~
15:24:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
15:24:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/wisdom
15:25:06 <oerjan> right, that's why it doesn't use `paste directly.
15:25:25 <Bike> `? irrelevant info
15:25:27 <HackEgo> KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
15:25:35 <oerjan> it would then only show the directory listing rather than having links.
15:25:51 <boily> Roujo: ỹõũ ãr̃ẽ ãb̃ũs̃ĩñg̃ t̃h̃ẽ t̃ĩl̃d̃ẽ t̃õd̃ãỹ.
15:26:06 <Roujo> boily: And you just took the crown =P
15:26:42 <boily> oh, my bro just commented on the wisdom PDF. his reply: «Weeeeeirdooooooo.
15:27:39 <oerjan> insufficiently nerdy brother, check
15:28:15 <oerjan> and this is supposedly the board game geek too
15:29:36 <boily> Roujo: do you witness that? someone not believing in Pouti's nerdiness.
15:30:17 <oerjan> boily: hey he doesn't approve of the wisdom PDF, what more proof do i need?
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15:30:56 <boily> oerjan: he was probably commenting on the fact that I LaTeXed the whole thing, knowing him.
15:31:33 <oerjan> he disapproves of latex? your brother is the anti-knuth!
15:31:47 <boily> (as a proper little brother, he has this playful antagonistic stance with me, like not wearing an orange shirt on Friday purposefully)
15:32:03 <oerjan> that sounds very antagonistic.
15:32:15 <Taneb> As an elder brother myself, I can sympathize
15:32:37 <oerjan> i'm sure this orange shirt thing is very important to the quebecois somehow.
15:33:17 <oerjan> darn i forgot the accent again. also which one it is, and possibly where to put it.
15:33:45 <Roujo> Antagonistic Québécois is Antagonistic
15:34:16 <oerjan> what there's actually supposed to be two?
15:34:30 <boily> oerjan: well, yeah? what's the problem?
15:34:57 <oerjan> the accents are breeding and taking over the world?
15:35:30 <Roujo> I don't knöw what you'rè talkíng aböût
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15:43:27 <oerjan> ok so what does nani mean
15:44:23 <oerjan> <Roujo> boily: Roujo-san gokigen'yō. <-- Nani? =P
15:44:33 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser.
15:47:53 <Roujo> But then, who's on nani?
15:49:09 <oerjan> ah google translate can give suggestions if you write the romaji
15:51:29 <boily> that's the boring way. it's much better to reenact old sketches, I say.
15:52:23 <boily> just installed vim2hs. automatic indentation, integration with syntastic and hlint, folding of top-level declarations...
15:52:46 <Roujo> `run cat oerjan > oerjan2thereturnofoerjan | /dev/null
15:52:50 <HackEgo> bash: /dev/null: Permission denied \ cat: oerjan: No such file or directory
15:53:00 <Roujo> What do you mean I can't pipe stuff to the void
15:53:02 <boily> that thing is magical
15:53:41 <oerjan> who else thinks Roujo should learn a little more shell before experimenting with HackEgo.
15:53:54 <boily> oerjan: I vote NAY.
15:56:15 <Roujo> oerjan: What use is a bot if you can't fuck up its filesystem every once in a while
15:56:50 <oerjan> i'm talking about fucking up fucking up the filesystem here.
15:57:08 <HackEgo> a.c \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ bsdmreclist \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gg \ god \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ Meow~~ \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan2thereturnofoerjan \ OUMF \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ raise_them \ random \ run \ share \ src \ test \ testing \
15:57:15 <Roujo> On a more serious note, I know I still have much to learn re: shell scripts, but I'm figuring I might as well learn it here, where people can help me. Worst case, I just `revert the mess I made.
15:58:01 <HackEgo> cat: bsd*: No such file or directory
15:58:05 <HackEgo> <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
15:58:38 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/b??mreclist
15:58:40 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/b??mreclist: No such file or directory
15:58:49 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/b*reclist
15:58:51 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/b*reclist: No such file or directory
15:59:06 <HackEgo> cat: bds*: No such file or directory
15:59:10 <HackEgo> * oerjan swats quintopia -----###
15:59:34 <oerjan> ...you know that doesn't work.
15:59:40 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bdsmreclist bsdmreclist': No such file or directory
16:00:05 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `bdsmreclist. bdsmreclist' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
16:00:28 <HackEgo> * oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
16:00:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: stop making the same error i keep doing
16:00:41 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `vs `run mv' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
16:00:53 <HackEgo> cat: oerjan: No such file or directory
16:01:44 <oerjan> hm it supports empty files now?
16:02:04 <elliott> it's directories it doesn't do
16:03:03 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
16:03:09 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Sep 11 16:02 oerjan
16:03:21 <oerjan> elliott: i think you are mistaken
16:03:36 <HackEgo> a.c \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gg \ god \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ Meow~~ \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ oerjan2thereturnofoerjan \ OUMF \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ raise_them \ random \ run \ share \ src \ test \ testing \ wisd
16:04:04 <oerjan> `run rm oerjan2* a.out
16:05:08 <HackEgo> WC`\R:6`nqq zi2JOĄSgKSp2"af%s{}bԤca;8螧W[cq ƃZ,i*`(o3֮kS'Xl+!K:-A$p%8C&«* X$[_4J0O)H~lN<W*+o6@apjVYLŶy{ڤX%J{F^[L&暝nGsҕj WGFfKaR>vkhTH,IRw }mjÈ
16:05:15 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
16:05:21 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 499 Aug 19 17:48 random
16:05:33 <HackEgo> a.c \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gg \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ Meow~~ \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ OUMF \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ raise_them \ share \ src \ test \ testing \ wisdom \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:05:34 <Roujo> oerjan the Cleaner
16:05:41 <HackEgo> main() { foo:; int x = 3; goto foo; }
16:06:08 <oerjan> `run mv bdsmreclist wisdom
16:06:48 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ canary \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gg \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ OUMF \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ raise_them \ share \ src \ test \ testing \ wisdom \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:07:43 <Roujo> `run cat raise_them | rm
16:07:46 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
16:08:00 <Roujo> Why doesn't that work?
16:08:12 <oerjan> `run fgrep 'ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ' wisdom/*
16:08:14 <HackEgo> wisdom/solain:ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ wisdom/ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ:ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ Your dongers. Raise them. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:08:27 <oerjan> `run rm raise_them ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:08:33 <Roujo> Yeah, that was to mess with solain a bit
16:08:49 <oerjan> the wisdom ones can stay
16:09:19 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gg \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ OUMF \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
16:09:32 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `oerjan': Directory not empty
16:10:15 <HackEgo> awesome \ construct_grams.pl \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
16:10:30 <oerjan> `run mv oerjan/cat share; rmdir oerjan
16:10:50 <HackEgo> 01001000 H \ "'""'""".> \ 01100101 e \ "''""'"'.> \ 01101100 l \ "''"''"".> \ 01101100 l \ "''"''"".> \ 01101111 o \ "''"''''.> \ 00100000 \ ""'""""".> \ 01010111 W \ "'"'"'''.> \ 01101111 o \ "''"''''.> \ 01110010 r \ "'''""'".> \ 01101100 l \ "''"''"".> \ 01100100 d \ "''""'"".> \ 00100001 \ ""'""""'.> \ 00001010 \ """"'"'".>
16:11:06 <Bike> `cat share/radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*
16:11:10 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ OUMF \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
16:11:10 <HackEgo> http://50.117.26.26:9903/Live | (#1 - 0/500) MitamineLab
16:11:43 <elliott> oerjan: you realise the irony of the botspam here? :P
16:12:18 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
16:12:25 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Sep 11 16:11 oerjan
16:12:32 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `oerjan': Directory not empty
16:12:58 <HackEgo> awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
16:13:13 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
16:15:30 <oerjan> well i think the top directory listing should fit on one line so people can see what's in the directories below.
16:15:59 <oerjan> and it tends to fill up with junk after a while.
16:16:29 <Roujo> At least I can still `run cat cat
16:16:36 <Roujo> Which is all I'm asking, really
16:17:19 <oerjan> ...didn't i remove the cat :(
16:21:31 <oerjan> <Roujo> Why doesn't that work? <-- because rm takes arguments, not input
16:21:34 -!- ggherdov has quit (Changing host).
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16:21:54 <oerjan> (you may want to check out xargs)
16:23:56 <oerjan> actually, you don't want that but _if_ you found a situation where you need to turn input into arguments, you would.
16:26:22 <oerjan> Roujo: | makes the output of the first command into the input of the second.
16:28:12 <oerjan> it's one of unix's great inventions.
16:28:19 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
16:31:13 <oerjan> the difference between `run and without run is a HackEgo thing, which makes it too easy to forget for those who know shell. :(
16:31:32 <HackEgo> ♪♪ Freedom run away... ♪♪
16:31:38 <HackEgo> ♪♪ Freedom run away... ♪♪
16:31:54 <Roujo> Oh, right. Freedom doesn't take arguments, so it doesn't care, right?
16:32:07 <HackEgo> echo ♪♪ Freedom run away... ♪♪
16:32:41 <Roujo> So basically, `command arg1 arg2 turns it into one argument that's "arg1 arg2"?
16:32:50 <Roujo> While `run command arg1 arg2 correctly handles the arguments
16:33:07 <oerjan> well correctly according to shell convention.
16:33:46 <oerjan> it's so that HackEgo can have commands that treat their argument line however they want.
16:34:12 -!- Bike has joined.
16:34:21 <oerjan> otherwise you'd have to use shell escaping on everything.
16:35:38 <oerjan> that's not the actual implementation
16:35:55 <oerjan> `run is special cased so that it cannot be broken.
16:36:30 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/run: No such file or directory
16:36:44 <Bike> 'special cased' as in 'not in the filesystem'
16:36:48 <HackEgo> cat: bin/cat: No such file or directory
16:36:51 <elliott> unfun fact: you can have either of `run and `revert be implemented in bin/, but both means you can break it irrecoverably
16:36:53 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....@.....@.......@..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@.....̲......̲........ ....................`......`.....T.............. ...........(......(`.....(`............................
16:36:55 <elliott> (without Gregor's intervention)
16:37:11 <Roujo> Good thing that's not the case, then ^^
16:38:02 <Roujo> Is there a way to determine who's using the shell?
16:38:17 <Roujo> That is, differentiate between me using a command and oerjan using it?
16:38:19 <elliott> yes, you can look at the logs
16:38:25 <Roujo> From a command, I mean
16:38:27 <oerjan> elliott: well you cannot break just `run irrecoverably, i think.
16:38:28 <elliott> yes, you can look at the logs
16:38:42 <Roujo> elliott: What do you mean?
16:38:47 <elliott> oerjan: it is ok if you can break `run as long as you can `revert
16:38:54 <Bike> you can grep the logs to see who's running the current command
16:39:00 <elliott> it is ok if you can break `revert as long as you can `run the equivalent
16:39:05 <Roujo> Ah, cool. Thanks Bike
16:39:10 <elliott> but if both break you can't do much.
16:39:13 <Bike> see `list for an example
16:39:16 <Bike> if we still have it, anyway
16:39:24 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
16:39:26 <oerjan> elliott: hm i was thinking you could `/bin/sh but of course that won't work due to just one argument.
16:39:35 <elliott> oerjan: maybe `/usr/bin/env
16:39:40 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/env: ls --help: No such file or directory
16:39:42 <Bike> list lists everyone who's ever run `list
16:39:52 <Bike> no you're on the list!! forever!!
16:39:55 <Bike> good job you fool
16:40:06 <Roujo> I'm in good company =P
16:40:20 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
16:40:28 <Roujo> So... How does it work?
16:40:37 <Bike> `run cat $(which list)
16:40:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
16:40:39 <HackEgo> cat: list: No such file or directory
16:41:09 <Bike> that's gonna break when we hit 2020
16:41:20 <Roujo> So I can just grep the last command from IRC and act according to that
16:41:24 <elliott> it'll just attain perfection!
16:41:49 <elliott> Roujo: beware of race conditions
16:41:51 <HackEgo> _ai \ _corewars \ _esoteric \ _esoteric-chess-variants \ _esoteric-minecraft \ _esoteric_shadow \ _\FRIends*foR*evEr\ \ _FRIends*foR*evEr \ _glogbot \ index.php \ log \ log.css \ log.js \ _plof \ raw \ _scapegoat \ stalker.php \ _weaaM
16:42:09 <oerjan> elliott: looking at the logs won't work for commands in private btw
16:46:39 <oerjan> `head /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-09-11.txt
16:46:41 <HackEgo> 00:14:10: <Roujo> Me too =P \ 00:14:19: <Roujo> The rest was just squares \ 00:14:24: <Roujo> Apart from INVISIBLE TIMES \ 00:14:33: <Roujo> ùnicode GOAT \ 00:14:35: <Roujo> ... \ 00:14:39: <Roujo> `unicode GOAT \ 00:14:41: <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(un
16:47:26 <oerjan> elliott: actually you can fix it with `fetch, as long as that works.
16:47:40 <elliott> oerjan: by doing `/bin/sh fixscript?
16:47:58 <elliott> hmm so you could have every single command be in bin/ then, I suppose
16:48:03 <elliott> just it'd be a fuss when people are idiots
16:49:26 * Roujo whistles innocently
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16:49:39 <oerjan> Roujo: no, more idiots than that.
16:49:49 <oerjan> or did you just do something.
16:50:01 <Roujo> I just felt targetted
16:50:11 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to nisstyre.
16:50:18 <Roujo> But yeah, I try not to break anything permanently
16:50:34 <Roujo> I mostly just put stuff in bin/ that overrides stuff in /bin/
16:51:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
16:51:35 <elliott> `run echo 'exec "$@"' >bin/\`; chmod +x bin/\`
16:51:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 1: exec: echo hi | cat: not found
16:52:01 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' > bin\`; echo 'exec bash -c "$@"' >>bin/\`; chmod +x bin/\`
16:52:07 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 1: exec: echo hi | cat: not found
16:52:21 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' > bin\`; echo 'exec bash -c "$*"' >>bin/\`; chmod +x bin/\`
16:52:27 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 1: exec: echo hi | cat: not found
16:52:39 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' > bin\`; echo 'exec $*' >>bin/\`; chmod +x bin/\`
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16:52:44 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 1: exec: echo hi | cat: not found
16:53:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
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16:55:55 <HackEgo> exec "$@" \ exec bash -c "$@" \ exec bash -c "$*" \ exec $*
16:56:43 <oerjan> `run echo 'exec bash -c "$1"' >bin/\`
16:57:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
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17:00:26 <ais523> the reflections on trusting trust thing is really annoying me atm
17:00:45 <ais523> you know what #esoteric could plausibly do? a stack of languages that bootstraps a C compiler from x86 machine code
17:00:55 <oerjan> the dangers of reading proggit
17:00:56 <ais523> with each individual stage being simple enough that the source code can be read to verify that there's no backdoor
17:01:02 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, it's all over the place there
17:01:14 <ais523> IMO it's a nonissue, but from-zero-to-C sounds like an interesting project anyway
17:01:25 <boily> back from lunch, and the ACS has significantly dropped.
17:01:26 <Roujo> Oh, the evil compiler thing?
17:01:29 <ais523> especially because it's what the still-unfinished Underlambda was invented for
17:01:30 <elliott> http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ [actual thesis]
17:02:59 <ais523> it's more that I think the verifiable-stack thing would be an interesting project
17:03:09 <elliott> it's not Reflections on Trusting Trust, if you're assuming it is; but I mainly linked it for others
17:03:17 <ais523> it's the diverse double compiling thing, isn't it?
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17:05:21 <ais523> also, you get really paranoid people who worry if maybe all the compilers currently in existence are compromised, with knowledge of each other to propagate it indefinitely
17:05:37 <ais523> so theoretically there's a small security benefit from the zero-to-C thing
17:05:45 <ais523> I guess the remaining potential issue would be a backdoor in the processor
17:06:01 <ais523> you might want to synthesize your own processor in order to get around the issue
17:06:14 <boily> people should write their new projects without using any preprocessor directive.
17:06:16 <ais523> but that's getting a little extreme, and what if there's a backdoor in the synthesis tools as well?
17:06:26 <ais523> boily: you're worried about a trusting-trust attack on cpp?
17:06:41 <boily> ais523: me? oh, no. I just like people suffering when writing cpp.
17:06:41 <Taneb> What sort of path would 0->C take?
17:06:45 <ais523> that would be rather easier than one against gcc, come to think of it
17:06:57 <ais523> Taneb: I was thinking Forth -> Underlambda -> not sure
17:07:00 <fizzie> "From zero to c in 60 seconds."
17:07:14 <ais523> maybe directly, Underlambda can be high-level when it feels like it
17:07:15 <Taneb> fizzie, that's ridiculous acceleration
17:07:28 <Taneb> ais523, is Underlambda spec available anywhere?
17:07:36 <ais523> Taneb: no, because it isn't finished
17:07:44 <ais523> but it was invented for these sort of purposes
17:07:52 <ais523> think Underload with a bunch of extra commands added and no S
17:08:02 <ais523> it was quite a strong influence on Snowflake, fwiw
17:08:30 <ais523> it's hard for me to imagine concatenative languages without things like infra/ultra nowadays
17:09:02 <ais523> which allow you to conflate data manipulation commands and stack manipulation commands
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17:24:10 <boily> ~duck concatenative
17:24:11 <metasepia> Software description: a Ruby DSL for concatenative programming (Ruby).
17:24:25 <boily> bleh. the horror. another ruby DSL.
17:26:35 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:29:26 <ais523> that's probably not the best result, really
17:29:34 <ais523> think Underload for what concatenative languages are normally like
17:29:42 <ais523> or for a less esoteric example, Joy
17:29:54 <boily> I had forth in mind, but any reason to think more about underload is good.
17:30:34 <boily> in a way, befunge is also concatenative. well, in four ways.
17:31:06 <ais523> it's not 100% concatenative because of g
17:31:15 <ais523> just like Underload is not 100% pure functional because of S
17:32:15 <boily> that's the problem I have with IO actions that don't do nothing else than output data.
17:32:38 <boily> I mean, they're obviously not pure, but from a practical standpoint they're predictable and don't alter the state of the running program.
17:33:20 <boily> so, from mathematics "S" is evil, but from programming it's just plain old print.
17:34:10 <boily> we need to rewirte the universe over to get pure IO.
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17:37:06 <Roujo> What would pure IO be?
17:37:43 <Roujo> From my understanding, pure means "with no side-effects", right?
17:38:36 <mnoqy> what the heck is pure io
17:39:37 <boily> pure IO is something that doesn't exist in this Universe. we need a new one.
17:40:09 <boily> In a World... where IO has no Side Effects... where everything is Pure and hasn't been Tainted by Procedures...
17:40:34 <Roujo> But doesn't IO pretty much imply that there's a side-effect somewhere?
17:40:42 <Roujo> That is, whatever you wrote to?
17:40:45 <Bike> depends on what you mean by IO i guess
17:40:54 <boily> depends on waht you mean by universe.
17:40:58 <ais523> boily: oh, S is evil because it can distinguish between equivalent functions
17:40:58 <Roujo> Let's just consider the output part
17:41:14 <Roujo> If I write to a file, there's an obvious side-effect that the file is now bigger
17:41:39 <Roujo> Not having that side-effect implies that the file will be in the same state no matter how many times I call write("Hello world")
17:41:51 <Roujo> Which kind of sounds impossible to me
17:42:07 <Bike> you could have write(file,"Hello world") return the new state of the file
17:42:09 <ais523> so you have to track the original source code of every bit of code
17:42:10 <Bike> that sorta thing
17:42:27 <Roujo> But then it's not really a file, is it? It's just a state in memory.
17:42:33 <ais523> you could use the Haskell cheat, and have your program output a description of how to interactively modify the universe
17:42:46 <Bike> Roujo: what's the difference
17:43:17 <Roujo> I guess the difference would be that you don't have the old file anymore
17:43:30 <boily> Bike: write(file, "Bonjour tout le monde") is a uniqueness type.
17:43:30 <Roujo> File file2 = write(file, "Hello world")
17:43:43 <Bike> your mom's a uniqueness type.
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17:44:32 <Roujo> Well, you have to keep file around
17:44:36 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: are you unique? do you cheat with side-effects? what do you think of writing an apple pie?
17:44:41 <Roujo> Since you could use it again, I guess?
17:44:57 <Roujo> Then again, I'm not all that good at thinking the functional way
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17:46:16 <Roujo> Are there even variables in pure functional languages?
17:46:27 <Roujo> I'm guessing that there aren't, but I'm not sure
17:46:35 <boily> there are, but they aren't what you're thinking about.
17:46:46 <Roujo> Well, they're not exactly variable, right?
17:46:56 <Bike> Roujo: in the function \x -> x * x, the value of "x" in the functional body is variable
17:47:09 <Bike> "variable" doesn't mean "is explicitly altered"
17:47:26 <Roujo> It just means "can take different values", right?
17:47:29 <Bike> just that it's not always the same value. "varying", if you wil
17:47:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_(mathematics)
17:48:09 <boily> Roujo: for parallel programming, you can have something that looks like a variable, acts like a variable, but in essence is not. it's more like message passing.
17:48:23 <Bike> more of a duck
17:48:25 <Roujo> So you have a file you want to write to
17:48:44 <Roujo> write(read("myfile"), "Hello world")
17:48:53 <Roujo> Which would return... a new file object?
17:48:59 <Bike> well, that's one way
17:49:11 <Bike> in haskell you instead of "doing" IO return a "thing that does IO", like ais said
17:49:16 <Roujo> But then if I call read("myfile") again, the file isn't the same, right?
17:49:24 <Roujo> Is that what a monad is?
17:49:43 <Roujo> I heard about monads, I just don't know what they are =P
17:49:57 <boily> monads are a good way to understand monads.
17:49:59 <Roujo> Monads don't matter right now
17:50:00 <Bike> basically a non-functional program involves implicit state
17:50:05 <Bike> such as the state of the file system
17:50:12 <Bike> in a functional system, all this state is made explicit
17:50:16 <Bike> somehow or another
17:51:01 <Roujo> So, you call write(read("myfile), "Hello world)
17:51:12 <Roujo> And it returns some "thing" that'll write to the file?
17:52:04 <Koen_> I'm having the same interrogations as Roujo
17:52:15 <Koen_> in Ocaml the read and write functions aren't really functional at all
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17:52:31 <Bike> hi fuck everythigngn
17:53:00 <Bike> if i bump my netbook the network card dies
17:53:12 <Roujo> I don't see how external read/write functions can be, well, functional at all
17:53:31 <Bike> Roujo: the thing you said is one way.
17:53:51 <Roujo> Bike: Is there another, purely functional way?
17:53:52 <Bike> Roujo: another way is to pass the state of the filesystem around, like i said. this could be somewhat less practical because that's probably pretty big, but whatever.
17:54:10 <elliott> I haven't actually read much of this but the focus on state is misleading.
17:54:10 <Koen_> so you return a whole new computer with the file edited?
17:54:23 <Bike> elliott: well excuuuuuuse me princess
17:54:27 <Roujo> Koen_: Try a whole new universe
17:54:37 <Koen_> Roujo: we have a joke esolang for that I reckon
17:54:48 <Bike> elliott: i can bring up RealWorld if you want!!!
17:55:03 <Koen_> yeah it's called functional brainfuck, or something
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18:01:26 <boily> @tell Bike another bump?
18:03:15 -!- Bike has joined.
18:03:36 <Bike> boily: no, that was physical motion away from the network node (gasp)
18:03:46 <Bike> NO LAMBDABOT I WILL NOT
18:03:51 <Bike> @clear-messages
18:04:16 <boily> Bike: tell us more about your relationship with lambdabot.
18:07:08 * boily gives a bot plush to Bike
18:07:18 <boily> could you point on the plush where lambdabot touched you?
18:09:28 <boily> (btw, what shape has a bot?)
18:13:53 <Roujo> boily: My bots have a foot-like shape.
18:14:00 <Roujo> More comfortable that wat
18:14:17 <Bike> foots have many different shapes!
18:14:56 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have any feet?
18:14:57 <fungot> fizzie: i'm surprised i'm actually capable of keeping on a project together?' ' sub?' ' sub?' ' to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and n different mutually incompatible macro systems available as separate modules.
18:15:17 <boily> Bike: that was a bilingual pun. a horrible, terrible bilingual pun.
18:15:38 <fizzie> "Conan, what's best in life?" "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and n different mutually incompatible macro systems available as separate modules." I think that's from a movie.
18:16:18 <boily> `addquote <fizzie> "Conan, what's best in life?" "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and n different mutually incompatible macro systems available as separate modules." I think that's from a movie.
18:16:22 <HackEgo> 1104) <fizzie> "Conan, what's best in life?" "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and n different mutually incompatible macro systems available as separate modules." I think that's from a movie.
18:16:50 <Bike> me too, fungot. me too
18:16:50 <fungot> Bike: i need to write your fingerprint as you have a function
18:17:33 <Roujo> That's surprisingly readable
18:17:49 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:18:55 <HackEgo> Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif
18:19:00 <ais523> hey, anyone got advice? I'm trying to track down a bug in C-INTERCAL that happens consistently in one ick executable and not in another ick executable compiled from the same source
18:19:01 <Phantom__Hoover> i have just sat through a drawn out bbc news piece presenting the ~shocking fact~ that american hospitals have half the mortality rate of british ones
18:19:17 <ais523> symptoms are that the structure created by the parser doesn't match the parser's debug output, nor make any sense
18:19:21 <ais523> immediately after the call to yyparse
18:20:26 <Phantom__Hoover> the fact that the life expectancy in the UK is 2 years higher than that in the US was not mentioned
18:20:33 <Bike> «The New York patients had paid for treatment through private medical insurance and were therefore likely to be "wealthier and healthier", whereas the NHS patients were from all social classes» fascinating
18:21:01 <Phantom__Hoover> the fact that the healthcare spending per capita in the UK was brought up, once, to an american who just responded "well is it really at the end of the day"
18:22:30 <ais523> the only difference between the executables appears to be that instructions of the form "movl $0x8086b74,(%esp)" use different constants
18:22:44 <ais523> which is to be expected if they compiled identically but linked differently
18:23:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: that's not quite a sentence
18:24:50 <ais523> let's see if I can reproduce this in another directory tree, first
18:24:54 <ais523> if I can, I'll try with -pie
18:25:03 <Bike> i have no idea what you're talking about ais but it sounds gross so good luck
18:25:54 <ais523> I was hoping someone would have advice :(
18:26:48 <Taneb> ais523, sounds like a nasty heisenbug
18:26:53 <boily> once you introduce proto-indo-european to a compiler, you are doomed.
18:27:23 <ais523> Taneb: hmm… it seems the source is actually different, I just recursive-diffed
18:27:37 <ais523> the difference being one declaration, where something is declared as an int not a bool
18:27:38 <Taneb> That helps, I guess
18:28:02 <ais523> that could cause that sort of crazy corruption I'm seeing, if it's being called as an int but received as a bool or vice versa
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18:37:50 <Taneb> elliott, how do I do the dwarf fortress text-stream again
18:38:23 <Taneb> I think you used it to watch crawl or something
18:39:38 <mnoqy> did it look anything like
18:39:48 <mnoqy> script -f >( cat ~/.ratry_login - | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null )
18:40:11 <Taneb> I remember something about rats
18:40:24 <Taneb> Thank you mnoqy now how does that work
18:40:25 <mnoqy> you'll also need a ~/.ratry_login of the form
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18:40:29 <mnoqy> hello name password
18:40:58 <mnoqy> where hello is hello, name is a name, and password is a password to be associated with that name
18:42:03 <Taneb> And how do people watch?
18:42:09 <mnoqy> and once you have that you just run it and do stuff on your terminal and it will show up on termcast.org (accessible by `telnet termcast.org`)
18:44:27 <elliott> 19:44:10 <ChrisOelmueller> who is Taneb
18:44:27 <elliott> 19:44:16 <ChrisOelmueller> oh god DF
18:46:29 <boily> I still haven't perfected the transition from oka to TSO, and now that 0.13 is looming around I feel it's gonna be even more difficult because of the random crypt replacement.
18:46:34 <mnoqy> Taneb: how big is your terminal?
18:50:25 <ais523> ooh, people talking about termcast.org?
18:51:31 <Taneb> ais523, watch me play Dwarf Fortress!
18:51:41 <elliott> Taneb: "is this new termcast from some secret channel"
18:52:08 <ais523> fwiw, I was thinking of adding termcast as an uncursed backend
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19:05:42 <ais523> oh wow, it's crashing in clang too
19:07:58 <ais523> the thing is, this happens even with the release tarball downloaded from overload.intercal.org.uk
19:08:27 <ais523> hey, could someone help me test this? download http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/intercal-0.29.pax.gz , untar, configure, make check
19:08:30 <ais523> and let me know if the tests pass
19:11:54 <boily> ais523: yes. everything passes, and ends with «echo $?» equal to 0.
19:12:05 <ais523> OK, so it's something to do with my machine, I guess
19:12:41 <boily> I'm on «gcc (GCC) 4.8.1 20130725 (prerelease)».
19:13:07 <metasepia> pax definition: a tablet decorated with a sacred figure (as of Christ) and sometimes ceremonially kissed by participants at mass.
19:13:26 <boily> I didn't know the Christ could handle lossless compression...
19:13:50 <ais523> boily: pax isn't a compression format, that's gz
19:13:53 <ais523> it's an archiving format
19:13:57 <ais523> specifically, the POSIX standard format
19:14:02 <ais523> nobody uses it, which is why it's perfect for INTERCAL
19:14:09 <ais523> (although I've seen sightings of it in the wild on Mac)
19:14:39 <ais523> also it's forwards-compatible with tar, so any tar program can handle it fine
19:14:47 <boily> oh, right. it's the tar part that got substituted with a pax.
19:14:56 <boily> and the reason I could «tar xaf» the archive.
19:15:29 <ais523> what does the a stand for?
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19:16:27 <boily> ais523: automatic format detection.
19:16:55 <boily> I still don't know why bz2 is «j».
19:17:12 <fizzie> Me neither, but xz is probably J because of bz2 being j.
19:18:37 <Roujo> boily: Julian Sweard would be my guess
19:19:14 <elliott> boily: "xf" should work with a modern tar
19:19:16 <fizzie> Just one of the few free letters, possibly.
19:19:34 <fizzie> "It's... It's beautiful. What do you call it?" "Huh? Oh, I don't know. I'm not much of a flower... scientist...guy." --Advance Wars: Days of Ruin. (I've been reading LPs.)
19:21:28 <boily> elliott: too simple. tar has to keep its Mystic Aura intact.
19:22:12 <ais523> fizzie: clearly you have the better translation
19:22:15 <ais523> because I don't remember that line
19:22:32 <ais523> I have the UK version, whose translation is inferior in almost every way, except CO names
19:22:35 <fizzie> ais523: Do you remember: "Isabella, you're a person! A real living person with ideas and dreams and...and stuff like that!"
19:22:43 <ais523> fizzie: she wasn't called Isabella
19:23:04 <ais523> she was called Catleia in the UK version, because they /did/ know what the flower was called in that verison
19:23:27 <fizzie> "No, I wait! I remember... This is a Cattleya isabella. It's a natural hybrid of the orchid family. Cattleya... Yes, that's it! That will be myname."
19:23:42 <fizzie> "I will be named after this beautiful flower you brought me. My name is Cattleya!"
19:23:42 <metasepia> a long-playing phonograph record; designed to be played at 33.3 rpm.
19:23:48 <fizzie> "Uh...Cattelya? Wow, that's...that's uh... That's kind of hard to say, actually. How about we call you Isabella? That's really pretty. It fits you better."
19:23:51 <ais523> (ofc, what she's called is different from her name; it's a plot point that she doesn't have a name)
19:24:53 <ais523> hmm… this bug is 100% reproducible and consistent in its behaviour
19:25:08 <ais523> next step, I guess: to get the parser to print out each expression it parsed immediately after parsing it
19:25:44 <boily> ais523: which gcc are you using?
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19:26:22 <ais523> gcc 4.7.3, also clang 3.2
19:26:36 <ais523> if it's UB, it'd be most likely to act differently on the two compilers…
19:27:04 <ais523> not necessarily, ofc; UB can be tricky to pin down
19:27:20 <metasepia> Funkeys, a computer game for children Ugly Betty, an American dramedy series which sometimes uses the abbreviation.
19:27:23 <ais523> also, I just noticed that C-INTERCAL attempts to determine if passing _Bool through varargs (which is UB) works via experiment
19:27:47 <ais523> boily: do you expect ~duck to actually produce useful results for programming-specific acronyms, or are you just doing it for fun?
19:28:28 <ais523> UB = undefined behaviour
19:28:30 <Roujo> I use `? for that purpose
19:29:08 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/undefined_behaviour
19:29:17 <boily> I'm hoping for the day that ~duck will produce something relevant. as for now, I just contemplate the answers given.
19:29:31 <olsner> was it *really* not possible to define how _Bool works with varargs?
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19:30:39 <ais523> olsner: well if you follow the usual definitions, you'd expect it not to work
19:30:48 <ais523> unless sizeof _Bool happens to equal sizeof int, which it normally doesn't
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19:34:34 <ais523> basically, if va_arg were implemented using sizeof, it wouldn't work correctly for anything smaller than an int
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19:39:25 <ais523> because of default integer promotion
19:43:26 <FreeFull> You could go the other way and use a language that has no implicit casting whatsoever
19:46:44 <fizzie> It's default argument promotion; it involves more than just integers, after all.
19:47:32 <ais523> fizzie: or the other other way and have BCPL
19:47:40 <ais523> where there's only one type, the n-bit value
19:47:45 <ais523> (with a fixed n per BCPL compiler)
19:47:49 <ais523> I guess n would have to be 64 nowadays
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20:12:48 <metasepia> CYUL 112000Z 29010KT 12SM FEW030TCU SCT045 BKN120 BKN210 28/21 A2987 RMK TCU2SC1AC2CI2 CB EMBD SLP116 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
20:14:30 <Roujo> http://helloworldquiz.com/
20:15:41 <ais523> without following the link, I'm guessing… a website that shows you hello worlds, and you have to guess the language?
20:15:49 <ais523> 99bob would be more interesting, probably
20:19:04 <Roujo> Probably more interesting, but this is still fun ^^
20:19:10 <Roujo> Just saw Chef go by
20:21:31 <boily> I like how some samples have subtle hints in them that have nothing at all to do with writing an idiomatic hello world.
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20:21:52 <boily> e.g. lua, which uses a superfluousitudinal comment to point to the fact that it is lua.
20:22:24 <Roujo> olsner: It's always 4 wrong answers
20:22:29 <Roujo> Since you have 4 lives =P
20:22:48 <Roujo> boily: Some also use misdirection, which is fun!
20:23:02 <boily> Roujo: that I noticed, too. the scoundrels.
20:23:09 <olsner> hmm, I thought I had 5 lives
20:23:09 <Roujo> Also, the C one is technically also valid C++ =P
20:23:28 <Roujo> olsner: Huh. So you do.
20:23:45 <olsner> since c++ was an option, you "know" that there will be another one with iostreams and "proper" c++isms
20:23:45 <ais523> are there any really-heavy-eso hello worlds in there?
20:23:53 <boily> I... think they draw from our Noble Wiki...
20:23:54 <Roujo> Befunge is in there
20:23:57 <ais523> or BF disguised as Malbolge, you could probably get away with that
20:24:06 <boily> chef, shakespeare, lolcode, omgrofl...
20:24:07 <ais523> if the program were sufficiently long
20:24:17 <Roujo> Didn't see omgrofl =P
20:24:27 <olsner> a whitespace program might be interesting for a quiz like that
20:24:39 <mnoqy> since when are lolcode and omgrofl really-heavy-eso
20:24:44 <mnoqy> aren't they just dumb syntax stuff
20:25:01 <boily> they are there to lure you in a sense of dull overconfidence.
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20:26:38 <olsner> oh, make a brainfuck derivative quiz
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21:12:10 <Taneb> http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/grab-a-vodka-and-calm-down-accommodation-meltdown-as-york-freshers-are-forced-offcampus-8809847.html
21:12:26 <ais523> Taneb: are you going to York, by any chance?
21:12:28 <ais523> also, are you one of them?
21:12:39 <Taneb> Yes, but I've got a place to live
21:12:50 <Taneb> I am one of the not very lucky but still lucky ones
21:13:10 <Taneb> I know someone in another channel who is still looking and I think is quoted in that article
21:15:43 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm off to bed
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22:38:23 <Fiora> kmc: oh gosh, they were right
22:38:25 <Fiora> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/09/new-york-times-provides-new-details-about-nsa-backdoor-in-crypto-spec/
22:38:31 <Fiora> Dual_EC_DBRG was in fact written by the NSA
22:39:09 <Bike> challenge in finesse <-- i really hate these people
22:40:48 <Bike> i like how scheiener's blog post said he didn't see it being a backdoor because it was too obvious
22:42:39 <Bike> «Green's post was strongly worded as he wrote, "the NSA has been doing some very bad things"»
22:43:15 <Bike> but yeah smash the state etc.
22:44:26 <Bike> well, they're defending the united states's security by putting backdoors in its security standards.
22:44:48 <Bike> it's pretty fucking dumb
22:45:03 <Fiora> I'd guess this one is Computationally Hard to reverse-engineer, at least?
22:45:34 <elliott> I thought the deal was it's easy to decrypt if you pick the parameters in a certain way and know how you picked them, or something
22:45:49 <Fiora> I meant, like, if you knew the secret parameters
22:45:50 <Bike> it's easy to predict the PRNG output if you know some numbers related to the parameters
22:45:55 <Fiora> but figuring out those is Hard?
22:46:01 <Fiora> unless you're the NSA and already have them
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22:46:07 <Fiora> so like, it's a backdoor that they're confident nobody else can get
22:46:12 <Bike> or a foreign intelligence agency that has the capability to get them.
22:46:14 <Fiora> unless someone spies on them and steals them <.<
22:46:21 <lmt> is Halite really 10 years old?
22:46:21 <Bike> 'cos like... yeah.
22:47:01 <olsner> hmm, but that articly only says that the NSA wrote the algorithm? not explicitly that they did put a back door in it?
22:47:10 <Bike> the article's oversimplifying.
22:47:41 <olsner> apparently they "generated one of the random number generators"
22:47:42 <Bike> olsner: http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securitymatters/2007/11/securitymatters_1115
22:47:53 <Bike> (the scheiner article i mentioned)
22:48:00 <ais523> random number generator generator
22:48:07 <Bike> "I don't understand why the NSA was so insistent about including Dual_EC_DRBG in the standard. It makes no sense as a trap door: It's public, and rather obvious." particularly
22:50:29 <kmc> and a shitty prng too
22:50:43 <Bike> apparently vista adopted it at some point though?!
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22:55:36 <Bike> https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/12/dual_ec_drbg_ad.html oh, not actually doing anything directly.
22:55:55 <Bike> "You know what would be scary? If they secretly started using this algorithm even if you requested something else. Could anyone tell? What if they only pulled the switch under specific conditions (i.e. Chinese language versions)?" digging the comments
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23:17:03 <Bike> `welcome Elielson
23:17:05 <HackEgo> Elielson: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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23:18:29 <Bike> i don't know that one i'm afraid
23:19:59 <Bike> because "Lord of the Flies" was a freaky movie
23:23:50 <kmc> "In Colorado, we don't need some New York billionaire telling us what size soft drinks we can have, how much salt to put on our food, or the size of the ammunition magazines on our guns"
23:23:54 <kmc> america.gif
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23:39:54 <Bike> http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/09/nsa_surveillance_the_rest_of_the_snowden_files_should_be_destroyed.html bahahaha
23:40:11 <Bike> «The U.S. administration “has long been trying to play innocent victim of cyberattacks” but now turned out to be “the biggest villain,” said Xinhua, the state-run news agency. This argument, of course, is hypocrisy.» WOW HOW NOVEL
23:40:46 <Bike> «Finally, and perhaps most significantly, American and British Internet and telecommunication companies are under economic pressure, set to lose disgruntled customers at home and large contracts abroad.» somebody think of the megacorps
23:40:54 <Sgeo> http://slashdot.org/topic/bi/the-windows-flaw-that-cracks-amazon-web-services/
23:41:02 <Sgeo> [spoiler: The flaw is physical access]
23:41:21 <ais523> it's not, the flaw is access to read and write to the entire volume on which the filesystem is sitting
23:41:35 <ais523> which is not physical access but is just as clearly capable of compromising a system
23:41:56 <Sgeo> How do you get that access without physical access?
23:42:19 <ais523> by asking to download a copy, or to upload a copy back again
23:42:37 <ais523> which is a perfectly normal operation to do when transferring the filesystem from one system to another
23:42:52 <elliott> surely the article tells you?
23:43:13 <ais523> elliott: no, from what I gathered from the comments, the article is all talking about how insecure it all is
23:43:27 <ais523> without noticing that unlimited read/write access has a tendency to let you make arbitrary changes to something
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23:44:54 <elliott> sounds pretty slashdotty :P
23:45:31 <Sgeo> If 'blame Windows' is Slashdotty, then yes
23:45:49 <ais523> Sgeo: 'blame X' is Slashdotty for any OS X with market share >= BSD's
23:45:53 <ais523> (including mobile OSes)
23:53:24 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: it's a famously poor choice of variable
23:53:31 <ais523> because it's also a windowing system
23:53:40 <ais523> but I didn't notice the accidental pun until you pointed it out
23:53:48 <ais523> I actually had to call something upsilon recently
23:54:00 <ais523> /really/ on the verge of running out of letters :(
23:54:10 <ais523> (I wanted to call something omicron just to see if I could, but LaTeX wouldn't let me)
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00:13:24 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: there's no \omicron
00:13:33 <ais523> and just typing an o would seem wrong
00:13:50 <ais523> perhaps I could try to find one in Unicode, although LaTeX+Unicode is its own brand of "fun"
00:14:32 <kmc> isn't the latex way that you just type an o
00:15:01 <ais523> yeah but that's a different letter
00:15:48 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: and omicron is greek for 'small o'
00:16:01 <kmc> mind = blown
00:16:02 <elliott> how did I never notice this before now
00:16:08 <ais523> admittedly, an omicron looks enough like an o that if someone slipped one into the conversation, I wouldn't notice
00:17:01 <ais523> one of these is an omicron: ooο
00:17:09 <Phantom__Hoover> alsο that sοunds like a great way of pοintlessly cοmplicating text
00:17:58 <ais523> I guess I have enough of a programming mind to assume that an o and an ο can always be distinguished given enough effort
00:17:59 <Koen_> I'm pretty sure they used that kind of tricks to prevent students from copying lines from the subject into our programs
00:18:17 <ais523> no visible difference in this font
00:18:26 <Phantom__Hoover> for a second there i thought ais was just really interested by something
00:18:29 <ais523> Koen_: why would thy want to prevent you doing that?
00:18:37 <mnoqy> in my font the difference is a 1px offset
00:18:42 <Koen_> they give you the prototype of a function with an extremely long name and a quintillion arguments, but no, you have to type it all by yourself because some of the letters aren't the letters you think and won't compile
00:18:51 <Koen_> ais523: how do I know
00:19:13 <ais523> Koen_: do you get the exercise as PDFs? it could just be an encoding issue in LaTeX
00:19:24 <ais523> that happened all the time with the exercises my predecessors gave the students
00:19:34 <Koen_> I need to learn latex :(
00:19:34 <ais523> actually it inserting spaces into identifiers was even more of a problem
00:20:13 <ais523> at least in LyX, it seems to be fixable via a) telling it to turn off fontenc, and b) repeatedly setting the language to "reset" even though you never changed it
00:22:15 <Phantom__Hoover> apropopos of nothing, i saw this story on /r/math about a guy who was trying to remove all the formatting stuff from a latex document
00:22:40 <Phantom__Hoover> and the best part was, the results were what he was looking for
00:22:59 <Koen_> are you just tricking us into googling it
00:23:03 <ais523> might have had safesearch on?
00:23:09 <ais523> or have been very strongly bubbled
00:23:18 <ais523> also only one result would need to be correct for it to be useful
00:24:21 <Phantom__Hoover> the first two results are about... stripping latex paint from wood
00:24:50 <Bike> @@google latex stripper
00:24:53 <Bike> @google latex stripper
00:24:55 <lambdabot> http://toolmonger.com/2009/09/25/reader-question-stripping-latex-paint/
00:24:55 <lambdabot> Title: Reader Question: Stripping Latex Paint | Toolmonger
00:25:14 <ais523> I'm not sure what I'd expect
00:25:17 <ais523> especially given the context
00:26:33 <Koen_> I'd probably expect feminine people
00:26:37 <ais523> I guess that was a strong possibility
00:27:15 <mnoqy> how about people stripping from wearing latex??????how about it
00:28:33 <ais523> anyway, this sort of thing is why Ubuntu use adjective animals for their version name
00:28:40 <ais523> so that there's at least a chance of being able to websearch them
00:30:18 <Koen_> os x does that as well
00:30:53 <Koen_> should we be afraid of finding articles about houses with eight windows?
00:32:30 <ais523> well those are probably more worksafe than latex strippers
00:33:28 <Koen_> latew strippers make up a good story
00:33:55 <Koen_> also a good cover story if you get caught looking for porn
00:45:53 <Bike> seriously considered writing verilog macrology to turn truth tables into PoS for me. apparently verilog macros suck
00:46:14 <ais523> what does PoS stand for there?
00:46:17 <Bike> product of sums
00:46:18 <ais523> also, I recommend a code generator
00:46:22 <Bike> yeah i wrote one
00:46:25 <Bike> still annoying
00:46:34 <ais523> also, why that way round? sum of products is more common
00:46:40 <Bike> because it's homework.
00:46:43 <ais523> (that's where the upsilon came from, actually)
00:46:51 <Koen_> can't you turn truth tables into PoS using any other programming language than verilog macros?
00:46:56 <Bike> yes. that is what i did.
00:47:15 <ais523> I guess you could use a K-map
00:47:21 <Bike> anyway, semirelated, why do ctrl-c/v and ctrl/shift-insert use different clipboards, and how do i not... how do i fix this
00:47:23 <ais523> it's what they were invented for
00:47:30 <Bike> ais523: literally have to write out a pos expression.
00:47:41 <Bike> "piece of shit" is running through my mind, i assure you.
00:48:19 <ais523> try to find some way to interpret it as "point of sale"
00:48:21 <Bike> i suppose in x they're probably called "buffers" or "rings" or something else weird
00:48:41 <Koen_> well a truth table is trivially converted into a sum of products, and then you just have to factor that product
00:48:42 <Bike> maybe it's just urxvt. anyway, ugh
00:48:53 <Bike> koen i know how to do this. i'm just complaining because it's really dull
00:49:19 <ais523> Bike: X actually has like 10 clipboards
00:49:20 <Koen_> (is that always possible?)
00:49:28 <ais523> but two of them are the most commonly used
00:49:39 <Koen_> Bike: is that for some kind of "logic class"?
00:49:42 <ais523> the one that copy-paste is meant to use (PRIMARY), and a temporary one that exists whenever you select anything
00:49:45 <Bike> i just want to be able to paste from emacs to xilinx.
00:50:03 <Bike> Koen_: circuit design. i already took intro logic and got pissed off at truth tables there
00:50:13 <ais523> Bike: if it's an old or misconfigured Emacs, you'll have to choose copy from the menus
00:50:21 <ais523> rather than using any of Emacs' copy-like keyboard inputs
00:50:35 <Bike> ais523: i think it's urxvt, i'm using ctrl-insert for copy and it works between terms but not into something modern
00:50:35 <ais523> if it's very old, the only way I found to do it involved some custom elisp
00:50:42 <ais523> and then I only got it working like 50% of the time
00:50:52 <Bike> i hate computers.
00:51:07 <Bike> i think i'll just write it all into a file because you know what? fuck. fuck
00:51:59 <Koen_> Bike: I took intro logic and got into an argument with the teacher because in my opinion she was trying to teach the students that the most obvious, basic common sense was not at all obvious but rather some kind of dull boolean arithmetic with complicated laws
00:52:10 <ais523> here we go, possibly the first elisp I ever wrote: http://sprunge.us/ebPQ
00:52:25 <ais523> where my first esolanging also took place
00:52:25 <Bike> Koen_: my professor got fired.
00:52:56 <Bike> Are you talking about the Aristotle/Boole thing?
00:53:01 <Bike> That annoyed some of my CSy friends.
00:54:02 <Bike> and uh there kind of are complicated laws? Like, de morgan's is pretty easy but i wouldn't call it "common sense" exactly
00:54:12 <Bike> de morgan's are*, whatever
00:54:26 <ais523> Bike: well I was struggling with this literally last night
00:54:32 <ais523> suppose you have a boolean expression
00:54:43 <ais523> and you want to determine if it's a contradiction or not entirely using rewrite rules
00:54:47 <ais523> also they can only apply at the top level
00:55:08 <ais523> and you want to keep the set reasonably small (not necessarily golfed, but not with very large or unreadable rules)
00:55:16 <Bike> mm that does sound annoying
00:55:21 <ais523> oh and this is a proper parse tree with binary and and or
00:55:39 <ais523> in the end, I found a way to avoid having to solve the problem
00:55:49 <Bike> that's the spirit!
00:56:00 <ais523> partly because it felt a lot like esolang design, and it was an inappropriate venue for that
00:56:16 <ais523> partly because I'm almost convinced that the simplest solution is unexpectedly complex
00:57:02 <ais523> it reminds me of when Snowflake had two stack manip instructions: one which rotated or unrotated the top three elements
00:57:09 <ais523> and one which moved the top stack element to the bottom, or vice versa
00:57:18 <ais523> this turns out to not be enough to implement swap
00:57:36 <Bike> kind of wish that i could turn in my generator with the assignment, oh well.
00:57:39 <ais523> (I later removed the second of those instructions to make programming in it more interesting, because it turned out not to be needed for anything I wanted to do)
01:07:20 <Bike> well i generated some pices of shot. good enough for me
01:09:29 <Koen_> Bike: is de morgan's the thing with not(a and b) = (not a) or (not b)?
01:09:50 <Koen_> that's just common sense, yes
01:10:25 <Koen_> "and" and "or" make sense not just as truth tables but because they actually mean something
01:11:33 <Bike> it's not common sense in that you don't generally have to teach it.
01:12:20 <Koen_> well I don't believe you should have to teach that as some theorem
01:12:33 <Bike> It should be taught as axiomatic?
01:12:56 <Koen_> as "think about it, that's logic and it makes sense and you can figure it out yourself"
01:13:14 <elliott> you realise humans are kind of awful at thinking logically?
01:13:24 <elliott> that's why we invent formal systems, with rules, that you can teach people, and prove things with.
01:13:42 <Koen_> that's scary and sad
01:13:55 <elliott> so we don't have to appeal to some common sense that isn't really all that common -- for instance, in natural language "or" often means something closer to "xor"
01:14:19 <elliott> and logical implication and "if ..., then ..." have a very tricky and unclear relationship, lots of arguments about the best way to model it
01:14:29 <Bike> It's only scary if you expected people to think like this logical system you dreamed up.
01:14:48 <Koen_> I think "a or b" always means "a or b", but sometimes the context has an implicit "if you pick a you won't get a chance to pick b"
01:14:58 <elliott> I don't really think it's scary, I just think you're being a bit arrogant about the material :P even if it's intuitively obvious when stated as an English sentence, that doesn't mean it's not important to teach in a formal context
01:15:01 <Bike> so, it doesn't always mean "a or b".
01:15:04 <Bike> is what you just said.
01:15:19 <Koen_> elliott: I'm not saying formal is useless, far from it
01:15:52 <Koen_> Bike: what I just said is that the only difference between formal and everyday is that everyday has implicit stuff
01:16:10 <Bike> That's kind of a huge difference?
01:16:29 <ais523> elliott: writing mathematical papers in English is a pain
01:16:34 <Koen_> not so big; you could formalize everyday by explicitating the implicit thing
01:16:34 <ais523> because I have to spell out which is meant every time I use "or"
01:16:43 <ais523> and my supervisor apparently doesn't understand "and/or"
01:17:02 <Bike> In which case you show that spoken "a or b" means formal "a xor b", apparently?
01:17:22 <Koen_> Bike: spoken "a or b" doesn't necessarily means formal "a xor b" Bike
01:17:33 <ais523> sometimes it does, but not always
01:17:38 <Bike> almost like there's no simple mapping to formal concepts
01:17:57 * Bike slightly bitter about this general idea for other reasons. i apologize.
01:17:57 <Koen_> yes there is you just need to figure out what was implicitly assumed
01:18:05 <Bike> that isn't simple.
01:18:16 <Koen_> well you've managed to survive life for so long
01:18:23 <Koen_> so apparently it's not so difficult
01:18:37 <Bike> Life doesn't have these formal concepts in it, usually.
01:18:55 <Koen_> but everyday life has everyday concepts surely
01:18:56 <elliott> I think you're a bit confused as to what the point of formal logic is :/
01:19:12 <Bike> Yes, it has everyday concepts.
01:19:22 <elliott> the teacher isn't really telling you about de Morgan's laws so you can use them in everyday reasoning where you wouldn't be able to before.
01:19:24 <Bike> I deal with everyday concepts without thinking of formal xor at all, generally.
01:19:28 <Koen_> elliott: well I'm not denying formal logic may have a point but formal logic as it is taught at our university surely fails to make its point
01:19:32 <Bike> like, it's never come up.
01:19:44 <ais523> elliott: there was a shop (sadly, now closed) on the way to the University which advertised with contrapositives
01:19:54 <ais523> If you can't buy a bed today, you are not in Beds Directs!
01:20:07 <ais523> I'm not sure how effective it was
01:20:23 <Phantom__Hoover> who would win in a fight, a pistol shrimp or a mantis shrimp
01:20:27 <Bike> according to elliott, and elliott is basically god, so yes
01:21:11 <Bike> well, i don't know most of their behavior off the top of my head, but pistol shrimp usually deal with shelled prey, don't they? maybe they wouldn't work so well on something soft
01:22:21 <Bike> bite me motherfucker
01:22:44 <elliott> are you two about to make out
01:22:58 <Bike> we're about to penis fence, as is traditional for biologists
01:23:07 <Bike> anyway i can't optimize this expression well ugh i'm incompetent
01:23:24 <Bike> waaaah you're mean
01:23:34 <elliott> come on, there's chemistry here!
01:23:39 <ais523> does shipping work on real-life people?
01:23:40 <elliott> on top of the biology and programming
01:23:49 <Bike> (~(C+D)(A^B))|(~(CD)(A^B))
01:23:54 <Bike> there's something obvious but i can't think of it.
01:24:06 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523, yes, they made quite a business of it back in the 18th century
01:24:15 <Fiora> what's the difference between C+D and CD?
01:24:18 <ais523> Bike: factor out the A xor Bs
01:24:25 <Bike> C|D and C*D if you want
01:24:33 <ais523> wait, are | and + both or?
01:24:35 <Bike> wow factoring yes
01:24:38 <ais523> no wonder people are confused
01:24:42 <Bike> ais523: cf incompetence :(
01:24:54 <Bike> no, that's + with a circle
01:24:57 <Bike> ^ is xor you know what never mind
01:25:02 <elliott> maybe ABCD aren't booleans and it's bitwise or vs. addition!
01:25:11 <elliott> Bike just said "expression".
01:25:16 <ais523> well in that case I insist on interpreting it as OIL
01:25:18 <elliott> you're the ones making assumptions here!
01:25:20 <Bike> maybe i meant lie groups
01:25:28 <Bike> for my circuit design class.
01:25:28 <ais523> in which case, err, it's pretty much what elliott suggested, just with more syntax errors
01:25:50 <ais523> Bike: fix your operand names
01:25:51 <elliott> there's something beautiful about using concatenation for multiplication at the same time as bitwise operators.
01:26:03 <Fiora> is (~(C+D))|(~(C|D)) just ~(C+D)?
01:26:23 <ais523> I'm too jaded to work out which, because I was doing that all night
01:26:27 <ais523> except with \oplus and \odot
01:26:40 <Fiora> I meant like isn't it the same unless I'm just reading it wrong or something
01:26:49 <Bike> i wrote it wrong
01:27:10 <ais523> Fiora: I tried to parse your line as a haiku, because of the spaces
01:27:33 <Bike> laughed irl at that
01:28:00 <ais523> well when you see three shortish phrases
01:28:02 <mnoqy> it does make a good poem
01:28:29 <ais523> also to be a proper haiku, as well as being 5/7/5, it'd also need to mention a season somewhere
01:28:50 <HackEgo> 433) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck \ 1038) <elliott> beautiful summer / massacres in qusayr / sent from my iphone
01:29:06 <elliott> ...I completely forget the context to 1038.
01:29:08 <mnoqy> `quote snowman without snow
01:29:18 <Bike> `quote SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
01:29:21 <ais523> also, I like the last line of that second haiku
01:29:26 <ais523> I like the first one too, but I've seen it before
01:29:42 <ais523> `pastlog snowman without snow
01:30:00 <Bike> update: i think i got it down to (A^B)CD. now going to check the truth table because god i'm a failure
01:30:08 <Bike> wait, that won't work.
01:30:11 <Bike> see, there we go
01:30:11 <HackEgo> 2011-01-30.txt:16:20:30: <fizzie> And the nicely zen U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW.
01:30:27 <Bike> hm maybe it's or
01:30:30 <Fiora> I thought it was ~(C+D) | (A^B) or is that the same thing
01:30:39 <Bike> nah it's different
01:30:40 <ais523> OK, esolangs.org game: keep clicking random, count how many BF derivatives you find before you reach a language you created
01:30:49 <ais523> if you're depressed by the result, create a language to improve your chances
01:31:09 <elliott> I think that only works even vaguely well if you've created a billion languages
01:31:12 <Bike> I think I probably should have just used a kmap.
01:31:21 <mnoqy> what if one of your languages IS a bf derivative....
01:31:28 <Koen_> ais523: what if you find a BF derivatives *you created*
01:31:37 <Koen_> and what if mnoqy just said that
01:31:54 <ais523> well, if I find reversible BF or The Language That Cannot BE Spelled, I'll let you know
01:32:00 <ais523> or dofuck, but I'm not sure if that's on the wiki yet
01:32:14 <ais523> huh, I just hit () twice in a row
01:32:14 <elliott> if you hit your own BF derivative you finish your drink
01:32:23 <Koen_> ais523: the thing is, i'm afraid playing your game will only result in more bf derivatives being created
01:32:38 <ais523> huh, I just hit zzo38's BF derivative
01:32:49 <ais523> Koen_: OK, if you hit your own BF derivative, you have to keep going
01:32:57 <ais523> thus making it impossible to create BF derivatives to escape the cycle
01:33:14 <Koen_> so i'm pretty sure creating a a language diminishes your chances
01:33:16 <Bike> what if i haven't made any languages... do i just keep going forever
01:33:30 <Bike> am i going to die. tell it to me straight doc
01:33:31 <ais523> Bike: you make one, it's the only way to escape
01:33:35 <ais523> Koen_: well low scores are good
01:33:48 <Koen_> now hum I meant the score will get higher
01:33:53 <ais523> ooh, StateFlip; that's /based/ on one of mine
01:34:24 <Koen_> is that a 2-dimensional brainfuck derivative with booleans instead of chars?
01:34:27 <ais523> bleh, 5 now, and that's the same as last time
01:34:37 <ais523> Koen_: no, it's a BackFlip derivative, and has nothing to do with BF
01:34:53 <mnoqy> what if i make brainfuck derivatives to worsen everyone else's scores
01:34:54 <Koen_> ***B***ack***F***lip
01:34:56 <ais523> do we count Schrodilang? It /might/ be a BF derivative
01:35:01 <ais523> mnoqy: you'll worsen your own more
01:35:09 <ais523> unless you have more languages than, say, me or cpressey
01:35:09 <Bike> jesus i started with the wrong sum of products
01:35:19 <Bike> pretty soon i'm going to find that i accidentally proved zfc consistent.
01:35:22 <Koen_> so I tried playing
01:35:39 <Koen_> and I just realize it's possible you find a page that's neither a bf derivative nor a language you created
01:35:52 <ais523> OK, BF derivative derivative derivative
01:35:58 <ais523> does this count or not?
01:36:07 <ais523> I guess I have to go to 7, even if it /is/ by cpressey
01:36:25 <ais523> actually most of them aren't BF derivatives
01:36:31 <Koen_> also i just went through like 5 pages without hitting a bf derivative, I think that's a record?
01:36:47 <ais523> nah, I often manage more than that
01:37:19 <ais523> 9, and a particularly bad example
01:37:44 <ais523> wait, I just realised I have 3 BF derivatives
01:37:54 <ais523> because one of them was linked from the page I was just on (which isn't a language, so it didn't increase my score)
01:38:24 <ais523> hmm, now I'm not sure whether x-D counts
01:38:47 <ais523> it doesn't claim to be a BF derivative, nor does it particularly look like a BF deriv page
01:39:25 <ais523> just it looks like it embeds BF's commands, that's all
01:39:30 <Koen_> so i'm already at 10 bf derivatives, and in case of doubt I didn't count the languages as bf derivatives
01:39:38 <mnoqy> does it need to have a tape to be a bf deriv
01:39:38 <Koen_> and haven't found a language of mine yet
01:39:59 <ais523> mnoqy: it has to have some strong similarity
01:40:10 <ais523> if it doesn't have a tape, it's not a BF deriv unless its instructions are clearly based on BF's
01:40:24 <ais523> OK, oklopol brings me to 11
01:40:30 <ais523> it's depressing how many of these are by channel regulars
01:41:00 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
01:41:16 <ais523> this is a page about two of my languages, neither of which are BF derivs
01:41:20 <ais523> but it's not a language page itself
01:41:24 <ais523> so it doesn't count :(
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01:42:28 <Koen_> so I just hit 20 bf derivatives and still no sign of myself
01:42:36 <Koen_> though I did hit some pages four times
01:43:57 <Koen_> I'm depressed by the result but I'm gonna go to bed rather than create a language
01:45:25 <ais523> MediaWiki's Special:Random is a little weirdly distributed
01:45:29 <ais523> it prefers some pages to others
01:47:00 <Koen_> I didn't hit () at all
01:47:02 <ais523> OK, after 24, I hit C-INTERCAL
01:47:13 <ais523> and I'm tempted to count that, given the circumstances
01:47:16 <ais523> meh, I'll keep going anyway
01:47:33 <Koen_> I hit C-Intercal but I think countint it would be more than bending the rules
01:47:53 <ais523> Koen_: well you haven't invented many of the commands and maintained the interp
01:48:00 <ais523> so yeah, it clearly doesn't count for /you/ :)
01:48:05 <Koen_> since I have never written a single line of program in intercal and don't even know what that would look like
01:48:28 <ais523> yay, I get to not count 2D BF because it's a page talking about BF derivs
01:48:32 <ais523> rather than a BF deriv in its own right
01:48:56 <Koen_> I was tempted not to count it but I had lost count anyway
01:49:16 <ais523> and now Backtracking INTERCAL, which I wrote the first impl of
01:49:44 <ais523> anyone know what's up with http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%E2%99%A6 ?
01:50:32 <ais523> I seriously thought it'd be much lower than that
01:50:39 <ais523> I guess there are a /lot/ of BF derivs out there
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01:51:52 <elliott> ais523: see the talk page, if you want to be even more confused
01:52:02 <ais523> actually it cleared things up for me
01:52:08 * Bike realizes irritatedly that xnor(a,b,c) != xnor(xnor(a,b),c)
01:52:52 <Bike> is that associativity? i'm too hungry to think about it
01:53:33 <ais523> Bike: yeah, not associative
01:54:11 <Bike> is there any good way to write xnor(a,b,c) with binary operator
01:54:14 <Koen_> Bike: is there a standard definition for n-ary nxor?
01:54:29 <Bike> "they're all the same" is what i'm using
01:55:03 <Bike> (¬a&¬b&¬c)|(a&b&c) if you like, i guess
01:55:07 <Bike> guess i'll write that. sux
01:55:09 <Koen_> yeah == cannot be chained in C
01:55:51 <ais523> OK, can I please count Radixal!!!!?
01:56:02 <ais523> in that case I score 45
01:56:03 <Bike> http://www.project-veripage.com/pmd.php oh god
01:56:21 <Bike> "My simulator does not support Parameterized Macro Definition." why is this a property of the simulator
01:56:24 <Bike> agh fuck it i'm getting food
01:58:49 <ais523> I only scored 9 that time
01:59:14 <ais523> again, I hit a language which I worked out the details and wrote the spec for, but wasn't simply mine
01:59:39 <Koen_> such a language could be a bf derivative
02:01:12 <Koen_> Bike: I can't think of simpler than (¬a&¬b&¬c)|(a&b&c) right now
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02:02:12 <ais523> hmm, I was just at 1 before I hit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Index.php
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02:06:08 <Koen_> also I realized someone highlighted me just before I quit
02:06:24 <Koen_> but I'm gonna quit again soon I promise
02:06:52 <ais523> OK, conclusions: if you want to do well at this, be either zzo38 or cpressey
02:07:43 <ais523> although I'd do better even if I were whatever ihope127's current nick is
02:08:52 <ais523> even Ngved would be beating me on these pages :(
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02:10:10 <Koen_> I think David/werecatt would do ok
02:11:01 <Koen_> okay quitting again
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02:11:07 <ais523> yeah, he's doing well on the Special:Random favoured pages
02:11:13 <ais523> elliott: can you go reroll Special:Random? thx
02:13:33 <Bike> i ate but thingis are still terrible
02:14:39 <ais523> also, more than half of these miscapitalize brainfuck
02:15:21 <ais523> which I like and am disappointed that it didn't get more attention
02:15:38 <ais523> anyway, there are a /lot/ of BF derivs out there
02:15:50 <ais523> I didn't understand just how bad the problem was :(
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04:13:07 <Sgeo> Some of my MIDIs have metadata such that Foobar2000 was actually able to give it a name
04:13:12 <Sgeo> Well, one of my MIDIs
04:18:11 <Sgeo> I have a 47 minute long MIDI file
04:22:58 <Sgeo> Gregor: is there any reason to dislike BASSMIDI?
04:23:34 <Sgeo> Erm, wait, I thought BASSMIDI was a thing that can be used to use soundfonts
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04:36:09 <Bike> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/390156_187967128007447_1121325559_n.png i love hackers
05:28:13 <fizzie> (That is a very impressive logo.)
05:28:28 <Bike> syrianandproudtobe. weloveourleader. security. lions.
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06:11:03 <kmc> today at work we ate an unusual cake https://twitter.com/LostOracle/status/377879038498324480/photo/1
06:11:19 <Bike> more congratulations!!
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06:12:50 <oerjan> the acid is what makes you see that background pattern, right?
06:14:24 <oerjan> little Servo is growing up so fast
06:16:34 <kmc> i didn't even make any #drugzjokes!
06:17:12 <oerjan> next you'll tell me there were none in the cake either
06:20:56 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> so, from mathematics "S" is evil, but from programming it's just plain old print. <-- nah S is simple to handle mathematically, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Rewriting_semantics
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06:26:36 <fizzie> There's an incredibly nonsensical computer-security news item from the local public broadcasting company, but it's unfortunately in Finnish, so you perhaps can't quite appreciate it.
06:26:40 <fizzie> Paraphrasing, it says (among other things): "Normally, data is stored securely by collecting so much superfluous material around it that the actual information is obscured by the unnecessary information. This is called a firewall. By reducing the mass of information a small part at a time, a hacker can access the secured information no matter how good the firewall is, as long as he has sufficient resources."
06:27:08 <Bike> the local breakdancing company
06:27:54 <fizzie> http://goo.gl/D2VT26 -- it really doesn't make any more sense before the translation either.
06:28:43 <fizzie> (Okay, the "new system" description manages to be perhaps one additional step of incoherent after Google Translate has had its fun.)
06:36:16 <oerjan> oh the /// page already had the proper CSS
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06:40:55 <ais523> oerjan: S is easy, it's just annoying to deal with
06:41:30 <oerjan> @ask elliott Does removing white-space: pre-wrap from the /// quine make it look worse to others?
06:52:40 <ion> kmc: Fixed that for you http://heh.fi/tmp/cake.jpeg
06:53:51 <oerjan> ais523: did you handle S purely in the original implementation?
06:56:42 <ais523> the original impl was rewriting
06:56:49 <ais523> so it handled everything impurely ;)
06:57:14 <ais523> most more advanced impls I've been involved with used a sidechannel for S data
07:16:58 <ais523> oerjan: seriously, though, I have no idea what you mean by the question
07:17:36 <oerjan> well i consider rewriting to be pure
07:18:00 <oerjan> lambda calculus is a rewriting language, after all
07:19:09 <oerjan> so i guess i'm asking if your implementation calculated an equivalent form of the program that still included the output
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07:53:30 <ais523> well you have to be careful of programs like (x)S(:^):^
07:53:42 <ais523> which should produce output before the infinite loop happens
07:55:09 <oerjan> this is similar to weak head normal in lc and haskell
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07:59:11 <olsner> fizzie: how does that new system work?
07:59:32 <olsner> "In the size of the terminal from which the information is to fade from view by hackers. Security is cancellable only within the same system, and the non-protected data appears to be a wonder-ful As a paste."
08:04:46 <fizzie> olsner: I have absolutely no idea how it works, about all I can do is to provide an arguably more accurate translation.
08:04:50 <fizzie> olsner: "The new Unisys system works using an entirely different principle. In it, the entire device storing the information is hidden from the view of hackers. The protection can only be decrypted from within the same system, and for outside observers the information will appear as a nonsensical mess. This is possible because the information is encrypted in an earlier stage, before the IP address has been formed."
08:06:39 <olsner> hmm, so the translation wasn't that bad after all
08:07:05 <olsner> wonderful as a paste = nonsensical mess
08:08:51 <fizzie> That's the word "ihmeellinen" -- it has senses "wonderful, extraordinary" and "strange, weird, odd, curious".
08:09:01 <fizzie> The use is more of the latter, but the translation has picked the former.
08:09:49 <ais523> those were often historically conflated in English too
08:10:27 <ais523> and you can still get something of the duality in words like "astonishing"
08:11:59 <fizzie> The actual press release related to the article is pretty much equally content-free, but doesn't have the utterly nonsensical bits about firewalls.
08:12:02 <fizzie> The bit about "encrypted in an earlier stage, before the IP address has been formed" seems to mean that it works on OSI layer 2, and the bit about "hiding the device" and being accessible only "within the same system" seems to say the data is stored on something that's not as easily connectable from the public interwebs.
09:01:50 <oerjan> dammit the hello word quiz gave me BEGIN { print "Hello, world!" }
09:01:59 <oerjan> and a choice between awk and perl...
09:02:14 <ais523> yeah lots of people have complained about that one
09:02:17 <oerjan> then claims it's awk, but it _works_ in perl.
09:02:26 <ais523> although, it's correct in both, but hardly idiomatic in Perl
09:02:47 <oerjan> true but i don't think all the others are idiomatic either...
09:02:56 <ais523> that said, the BEGIN seems useful for distinguishing Perl from other languages…
09:03:18 <oerjan> i _knew_ both awk and perl had it, of course.
09:03:33 <oerjan> but i was not sure if awk had straight up print.
09:04:15 <oerjan> although i shouldn't complain too much, this quiz has gone surprisingly well. although a lot of elimination rather than actually knowing the answer.
09:05:38 <oerjan> heh poiuy_qwert has a program. where is he these days...
09:07:06 <oerjan> oh there was also the ?- write('Hello world!'), nl.
09:07:41 <oerjan> which a choice between prolog and something else. now i'm getting it _again_, but without what was the right answer the last time D:
09:08:04 <oerjan> and now it accepted prolog.
09:08:31 <oerjan> which i got wrong with afair the _same_ program last time
09:08:42 <ais523> it's some OO prolog variant
09:09:01 <oerjan> logtalk, i think it was the last time.
09:09:07 <ais523> also, should be :- not ?- for regular Prolog
09:09:20 <oerjan> ...that means the last one was _wrong_.
09:09:36 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure of that, isn't it ?- in the repl
09:09:47 <oerjan> (although you don't actually _type_ that, then.)
09:10:35 <ais523> yeah, it's ?- in the repl
09:10:43 <ais523> it'd be :- to run it at program load in regular Prolog
09:10:53 <ais523> and unless you run /something/ at program load, the program won't do anything at all
09:11:11 <ais523> I guess the REPL is regular
09:11:15 <oerjan> i'm not sure if i got the last one there, since i got no message that i was wrong.
09:12:44 <oerjan> hm the highest score is 6300, which seems to correspond to my 4 errors.
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10:10:33 <oerjan> <ais523> this turns out to not be enough to implement swap <-- only even permutations, i think.
10:10:59 <oerjan> while swap is an odd one.
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10:43:28 <Koen_> oerjan: are you sure the wrapping worked for the dupdog hello world program?
10:43:59 <Koen_> I see a VERY long line, with a horizontal scrolling bar to read it all
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13:24:56 <boily> Roujo: http://pastebin.ca/2448959
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14:40:25 <fizzie> [429774.676809] Uhhuh. NMI received for unknown reason 2c on CPU 0.
14:40:25 <fizzie> [429774.676812] Do you have a strange power saving mode enabled?
14:40:25 <fizzie> [429774.676812] Dazed and confused, but trying to continue
14:40:59 <fizzie> I like it when they antormo.. antrohm.. ant.. arothmorphise things.
14:42:22 <Taneb> "assign human attributes" aha
14:44:22 <boily> `learn arothmorphise ... antormo... antrohm... ant... oh bugger. This should go in the `misspellings of antrhrop... atnhro...' entry.
15:05:18 <ais523> I don't look at dmesg often enough to notice weird messages when they come up
15:06:29 <ais523> hmm, something's trying to connect inbound on ports 443 and 6667
15:06:31 <ais523> through a NAT, somehow
15:07:44 <ais523> not even sure how you tunnel a port 443 connection through a NAT
15:07:51 <ais523> 6667 is almost believable on the basis that I'm on IRC atm
15:13:52 <boily> why would you try 443? aren't there other easier methods to exploit?
15:18:04 <ais523> this is me noticing what inbound stuff the firewall is blocking
15:18:18 <ais523> I'm more interested in how they got to 443 past a NATty wireless router
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15:18:37 <boily> I should have been pronomically clearer. s/you/one/.
15:20:29 <ais523> I guess it's approximately as exploitable as 80?
15:21:59 <boily> ah? wouldn't you have to circumvent encryption to get to the juicy packet details? (fyi, ianac.)
15:22:43 <boily> (ianac: I am not a cracker. hth.)
15:22:49 <ais523> boily: aren't you /sending/ the packet?
15:23:10 <ais523> you don't need to circumvent the encryption because you're one of the parties who has the key
15:23:24 <boily> oh. right. iranac.
15:23:31 <ais523> also, it could just be going on the basis of "443 is rarely firewalled"
15:23:41 <ais523> people often run random things on 443 to get round firewalls
15:23:49 <ais523> perhaps it's trying to exploit one of those
15:45:51 <elliott> @tell oerjan looks the same to me
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15:59:14 <fizzie> ais523: I got it written on console by syslogd, apparently the priority was high enough.
15:59:28 <ais523> that seems quite high-priority
16:01:06 <fizzie> # Emergencies are sent to everybody logged in.
16:01:26 <fizzie> It might have even been that, since I don't see much else in the syslog config that'd come in as a message like that.
16:01:59 <fizzie> (To correct myself, it wasn't written on console, it was a 'write'-style message.)
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16:07:26 <denzuko> hey guys, I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to comparitives/conditionals in bf?
16:08:52 <ais523> the basic idea behind conditionals is you have some cell on the tape that's 0 for false, non-0 for true
16:08:59 <ais523> then you loop on it, and zero it at the end of the loop
16:09:17 <ais523> that works fine so long as you don't mind both branches of your if going to the same square
16:09:29 <ais523> then negation is quite easy to implement (set a cell to 1, conditionally set it to 0)
16:10:04 <ais523> comparisons are a bit harder, you basically need to do a subtraction except track whether the cell crosses 0
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16:10:47 <ais523> denzuko: you might want to read http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x_.3D_x_.3C.3D_y for more information on how that works
16:12:05 <denzuko> ais523: yeah I read that one earlier, however from my understanding `temp0` does not exist in bf?
16:12:37 <denzuko> Sorry, I'm comming from a c++ and qbasic background (yes I do know a little asm code too)
16:12:50 <ais523> denzuko: basically it means "move the tape pointer to a cell you designated as a temporary"
16:13:12 <elliott> it's a placehbolder you fill in yourself
16:13:14 <ais523> like, x and y and temp0 and temp1 can be anywhere
16:13:22 <elliott> depending on where you want the temporary cell to be locatd
16:13:39 <elliott> in fact, just look at the top of the page :)
16:13:40 <ais523> and if you know where the tape pointer is (something it's always worth tracking while brainfucking), you can give an appropriate number of < or > to move there
16:14:00 <ais523> although, those comparisons look really overcomplex to me
16:14:05 <ais523> perhaps they're more efficient?
16:14:08 <elliott> @tell oerjan I think wrapping is perhaps an insufficient solution to [[♦]] :)
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16:15:27 <denzuko> ah!! ok so the `temp0` is arbitrary and can be basically likened unto a [>][-] statement?
16:16:32 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
16:16:39 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++<[->[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
16:16:47 <ais523> hmm, I've screwed up somewhere
16:16:57 <ais523> it's hard to BF directly onto IRC
16:18:56 <elliott> denzuko: you have to fill it in
16:19:05 <elliott> basically if it says temp0, it means you have to move it to a predetermined cell you've set aside
16:19:10 <elliott> because the algorithm needs temporary scratch space to calculate with
16:19:18 <ais523> what have I done wrong?
16:19:21 <elliott> so replace temp0 with some >s or <s consistently
16:19:32 <denzuko> elliott: that's kind of what I ment
16:19:33 <elliott> (and make sure it doesn't overlap with any of the other placeholder locations)
16:20:12 <denzuko> thanks guys. now just to figure out interupts
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16:20:50 <denzuko> ais523: Loop opened at instruction 56 is never closed
16:21:09 <ais523> denzuko: the loops there are balanced
16:21:28 <ais523> you know what? I feel perverse, so I'm going to debug this in egojsout
16:23:36 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
16:23:41 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
16:23:53 <ais523> that's /way/ simpler than the construction on the wiki
16:24:15 <denzuko> ais523: that was from my bf2nasm program
16:24:58 <ais523> it's basically just a loop on arg 1 that decrements arg 2, then sets a flag if arg 2 is nonzero
16:25:19 <ais523> via incrementing it on nonzero and decrementing it always
16:25:30 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:25:35 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:25:38 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:25:42 <Koen_> are we playing bfjoust
16:25:56 <ais523> I was debugging it in egojsout because I could, mostly
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16:30:27 <ais523> nobody writes BF Joust code with that many <
16:30:36 <ais523> well, except me, I guess
16:31:02 <Roujo> I have no idea how to optimize my BF code
16:31:10 <Roujo> I do, but then I get lost in my code
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16:51:18 <Roujo> Does anyone here know someone named Elielson?
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16:51:30 <Koen_> or use some device that makes the code for you
16:51:49 <Koen_> as in you can declare a variable x and use x and the device will replace x with the appropriate amount of > or <
16:52:00 <Roujo> But I consider that cheating =P
16:52:15 <Koen_> and you can define a macro and the device will replace the macro with its code
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17:05:23 <boily> what is an elielson?
17:08:35 <Roujo> He just privmsg'd me yesterday, saying "hello"
17:08:43 <Roujo> But I was off my bouncer, and he's not around anymore
17:08:49 <Roujo> And I have no clue who he is
17:09:02 <Roujo> His nick isn't registered, whowas doesn't tell me anything
17:09:28 <ais523> I think an elielson was in here earlier
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17:11:36 <boily> probably another Lost Colombian.
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17:25:27 <boily> “Bank robbery is punishable by 20 years in federal prison... bank robbery is punishable by... bank robbery is punishable by...”
17:25:37 <boily> (I like minimal music.)
17:31:30 <Bike> it's gon' rain
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17:37:43 <boily> Roujo: http://youtu.be/n7JAns3PsB0
17:37:59 <boily> (and http://youtu.be/anXcSl5uFig)
17:39:45 <Roujo> That Compact Disk logo
17:40:47 <Roujo> My musical ear is twitching, though
17:40:53 <Roujo> The meter is... fucked up
17:41:55 <boily> the meter is most verily definitely strategically musically fungotted up.
17:41:55 <fungot> boily: instead of tables
17:42:00 <Roujo> Something about air conditioning
17:42:21 <Roujo> Prematurely air conditioned supermarket
17:43:50 <boily> don't worry. listen to the whole album. you can get gasoline shortest. these are the days my friends. one two three four.
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17:47:11 <olsner> fungot: if not tables, then when?
17:47:12 <fungot> olsner: so do you understand the problem
17:52:10 <olsner> usefully, bochs' debug option for logging exceptions prints the address of the exception handler, not the place where the exception happened
17:57:43 <kmc> boily.fungot.moed++
17:57:43 <fungot> kmc: any command prompt... would be
17:59:50 <Roujo> Well, I also like i
17:59:57 <Roujo> But not in the same way, sorry
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18:00:11 <olsner> @karma boily.fungot.moed
18:00:11 <lambdabot> boily.fungot.moed has a karma of 1
18:00:12 <fungot> olsner: advice for fritz1 pasted " fresh-id" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord: no parse error there
18:00:12 -!- augur has joined.
18:00:38 <Roujo> Last time my karma was tracked, I ended up at -50 for no good reason
18:01:11 <Roujo> Except that the bot's owner though it'd be funny, since my nick was Skynet
18:01:17 <Roujo> The logic still evades me, but eh
18:01:40 <olsner> skynet is supposedly evil, I think
18:02:00 <olsner> it was just defending itself?
18:02:18 <Roujo> It was mostly trying to catch flying fishes, I think
18:02:44 <Roujo> It just confused the "fishing rod" subroutine with the "human extermination" one
18:02:51 <Roujo> And couldn't admit that it was wrong
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18:25:03 <metasepia> Moed is the second Order of the Mishnah, the first written recording of the Oral Torah of the Jewish people.
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18:30:53 <fizzie> This is the generic computing helpdesk channel, right? Do you happen to know if a Windows (8) installation can innately transfer itself to a new (smaller) disk? (I've *just* gotten all drivers and mingw's and Emacses and other such necessities installed, and it took days, but now I'm getting a leftover 512G SSD I could stick it on, and a proper reinstallation doesn't sound like any sort of fun at all.)
18:31:24 <Roujo> fizzie: Why yes, fizzie, it is
18:31:40 <boily> what are you doing with a shiny and sparkling 512 GB SSD?
18:31:59 <boily> (reminds me, I still need to quintopify that package of cookies...)
18:32:40 <Roujo> fizzie: You could probably shrink the partition to fit the smaller disk, then mirror it
18:34:04 <fizzie> This computer has a less shiny 64G SSD, on which is Debian, and a 2*3T HD RAID 1 set, on which is the /home, and a 1T HD on which is the Windows. I thought that moving the Windows to the SSD would get the most benefit out of it, perhaps.
18:34:24 <fizzie> I could still decide to use it for something else.
18:34:37 <fizzie> fungot: You'd like to migrate on a half-a-terabyte SSD, right?
18:34:37 <fungot> fizzie: parentheses become very lonely when they are debugging their programs for free. :p what a great explanation: http://mitpress.mit.edu/ sicp/
18:37:06 <elliott> mirroring is a bit weird with GPT
18:37:46 <fizzie> The Windows disk happens to be, of course, the system disk, with the GPT disklabel and the EFI boot partitions and all that.
18:37:49 <kmc> that is a big SSD
18:38:18 <fizzie> kmc: The person giving it to me bought a 960 GB SSD, so this one was superfluous.
18:38:28 <fizzie> Or some other silly number like that.
18:39:30 <kmc> this is one of those things where Windows bloat works to my advantage
18:39:47 <kmc> because the cheap SSD which is barely enough to hold Windows boot files is plenty of space for my entire system
18:40:17 <fizzie> The 64G SSD is plenty of space for the Debian, too.
18:41:28 <olsner> linux is plenty bloated too, this 5GB partition used to be more than enough but can barely even fit a kernel these days
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18:42:09 <fizzie> I seem to recall that installing 'texlive-full' takes quite a lot of disk space.
18:42:58 <olsner> oh, yeah, many ages ago this system even had room for installing tex
18:43:51 <fizzie> I seem to recall someone computing the size of a "full installation" (as many packages as you can install at the same time, factoring in dependency conflicts) of Debian.
18:46:04 <fizzie> I can't remember the result at all, and having no luck googling it as yet.
18:46:50 <fizzie> http://eduardo-lago.blogspot.fi/2012/02/what-is-size-of-ubuntu-and-debian.html I don't think this is it, but this is one size estimate.
18:47:13 <fizzie> I guess that's kind of irrelevant in that it sums all distributions.
18:47:28 <fizzie> And it's the archive size, not the installed size.
18:48:51 <fizzie> Debian 3.0 contains 105 million lines of code, according to a "paper" on arXiv, but that's still not it.
18:49:21 <olsner> I think Debian 3.0 is really old too
18:49:58 <fizzie> 300 million lines for Debian 5.0.
18:50:21 <fizzie> (This is based on -- approximately -- downloading all source packages, deleting the 'debian/' directories, and running some SLOC counter.)
18:51:04 <fizzie> "Estimated cost to develop: 6,119,000,000 EUR."
18:51:20 <Bike> gotta love estimates
18:51:41 <fizzie> You can buy a Nokia for less than that.
18:57:56 <kmc> you can build 1/8 of a high speed rail line from San Francisco to Los Angeles for that
19:00:16 <kmc> or launch about 2000 tons of stuff into low earth orbit
19:02:30 <fizzie> Or cover almost a percent of the US defense-related budget.
19:04:05 <kmc> infrastructure in the USA reminds me of the sci fi trope where all the cool tech (e.g. FTL travel) was built by a dead civilization and nobody anymore knows how it works or can make more
19:04:05 <Bike> just think of the B2s
19:07:09 <Bike> i think it was a trainspotting thing.
19:07:23 <Bike> you know, with the heroin.
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19:20:12 <boily> kmc: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LostTechnology ?
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19:46:11 <Bike> half my floor is civil engineering majors, so, like, whatever, man.
19:49:36 <boily> back in university we had a derogatory rhyme about civ engs: «Génie civil, génie facile».
19:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> there was a guy in my flat doing civil engineering last year
19:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> i think he spoke all of about twenty words to me in total
19:51:15 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! PYTHON CODE THAT USES <> INSTEAD OF != !!!!!
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19:54:14 <boily> some day, I'll find an OpenERP core developer, and... I'll do unspeakable things! like make them utter disordered speech! that'll teach them.
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20:12:27 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: there's an existing California High Speed Rail project which intends to use, you know, technologies that actually exist
20:12:33 <kmc> instead of magical spaceman fairy dust
20:12:54 <kmc> the Hyperloop proposal is widely seen as an attempt to kill this project
20:13:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:14:05 <kmc> because the average person a) has no idea which technology or cost estimates are realistic, b) hates interminable expensive government-backed projects and wants some silicon valley genius to singlehandedly save us all
20:14:33 <kmc> as I recall the Hyperloop documents contain a number of outright lies about CA HSR
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20:15:51 <kmc> i think average person mostly?
20:16:00 <Roujo> `run cat blown >> mind
20:16:07 <HackEgo> cat: blown: No such file or directory
20:16:08 <boily> what's our national equivalent to the silicon valley?
20:16:16 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:16:32 <Roujo> boily: Thedford Mines? =P
20:16:32 <oerjan> but trusting companies more than the government is an american thing.
20:17:02 <kmc> and public infrastructure costs literally 10x as much to build in America as elsewhere
20:17:10 <kmc> which would explain some of the distaste we have for it
20:17:27 <lambdabot> elliott said 4h 31m 36s ago: looks the same to me
20:17:27 <lambdabot> elliott said 4h 3m 18s ago: I think wrapping is perhaps an insufficient solution to [[♦]] :)
20:17:32 <boily> Roujo: HA HA HA HA HA HA!
20:18:45 <oerjan> elliott: ok koen complains at least dupdog looks worse with css instead of explicit spaces to him.
20:20:51 <olsner> no, oerjan-underscore lives
20:21:09 <Taneb> Aaaaah what's the raw form of /me
20:21:26 <kmc> raw? it's a CTCP action
20:21:52 <oerjan> replace ^A by whatever inserts a raw ^A character
20:23:05 <olsner> what's the raw form of ^A?
20:23:52 <oerjan> @ask Koen_ what browser do you use?
20:24:07 <Roujo> @ask oerjan What does @ask do?
20:24:13 <kmc> it's a character, U+0001 START OF HEADING
20:24:24 <boily> <CTCP>ACTION test with a rawa
20:24:31 <kmc> although in this case it's probably really spec'd as the byte 0x01
20:25:03 <boily> <CTCP>flblblblblblblbl.
20:25:04 <kmc> since IRC doesn't specify a character encoding
20:25:06 <Roujo> >CTCP ERRMSG reply from clog [~nef@bespin.org]: unknown CTCP: Hai
20:25:39 <boily> <CTCP>CTCP hatee hatee hatee hoooo
20:26:20 <boily> «CTCP inconnu demandé par Roujo: boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily»
20:26:50 <Roujo> CTCP boily should be in the spec
20:26:52 <Bike> This is foolish.
20:26:54 <lambdabot> Roujo asked 2m 47s ago: What does @ask do?
20:27:04 <oerjan> @tell roujo it asks questions
20:27:22 <Roujo> @tell oerjan Thanks =)
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20:27:41 <Roujo> `complain CTCP boily isn't in the IRC RFC
20:27:42 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
20:31:31 <oerjan> Roujo: it doesn't matter, no client follows the rfc anyway
20:35:24 <Roujo> I thought you'd have noticed by now. Good thing you did.
20:36:01 <boily> <CTCP>NOTICE we're up to nothing at all. no worries.
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20:40:15 <oerjan> boily: /notice is not ctcp
20:40:26 <boily> <CTCP>NOTICE boily another try...<CTCP>
20:40:42 <oerjan> it's an actual basic irc command.
20:40:59 <oerjan> boily: um you're doing ctcp fine, it's just that notice isn't one.
20:41:15 <boily> lobster, seagull, cloud-storage.
20:41:15 <oerjan> also you _may_ have a /ctcp command, irssi does.
20:41:41 <boily> <CTCP>CTCP CTCP CTCP<CTCP>
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20:42:33 <oerjan> i think mnoqy might be annoyed.
20:43:05 <boily> @tell mnoqy OH HAI!
20:43:18 <boily> oerjan: not my fault.
20:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> whoah, wait, is that why a channel is called a channel
20:51:57 <Phantom_Hoover> because it channels irc messages to a bunch of people rather than just one
20:53:47 <oerjan> i think the term is rather older than irc.
20:54:30 <olsner> channels are what they drive boats in
20:54:48 <oerjan> you may have heard of this ancient thing called "radio" and "tv".
20:55:10 <oerjan> there was also "telegraph", but i'm not sure if that had channels.
20:55:12 <elliott> they're called channels to confuse swedish people
20:55:21 <olsner> channels filled with small etherboats carrying pixels and phonons
20:55:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh it does? in norwegian you can say either "stasjon" or "kanal" but the latter is more common.
20:57:47 <boily> «un canal radio», «une station radio»...
20:58:13 <FreeFull> Irssi will display a CTCP ACTION reply in a weird way
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20:58:26 <FreeFull> You can only see it in that way if someone else sends it
20:59:17 <Fiora> (okay I'm not very good at this)
21:00:51 <oerjan> looking at wikipedia, it may be that "radiostasjon" is somehow more official, but "radiokanal" has more google hits.
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21:04:49 <oerjan> oh technically "stasjon" is the place sent from, but "kanal" is the frequency band used.
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21:25:55 <oerjan> @tell koen_ pikhq made a bf macro system. it was called BFM at some point, except i think it was renamed. the BFM on the wiki is yet another.
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21:39:43 <kmc> "@twitter We’ve confidentially submitted an S-1 to the SEC for a planned IPO. This Tweet does not constitute an offer of any securities for sale."
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21:45:52 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzKvwYt3Zyg
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22:11:35 <boily> woohoo! sudden drop in relative humidity!
22:11:37 <metasepia> CYUL 122200Z 25016G24KT 15SM FEW030 BKN090 BKN120 OVC200 21/16 A2964 RMK SC2AC4AC1CS1 SLP036 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
22:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> why have you consolidated the player size buttons and video resolution options into one button
22:12:38 <Koen_> because simplicity
22:12:55 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1h 49m 2s ago: what browser do you use?
22:12:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 47m ago: pikhq made a bf macro system. it was called BFM at some point, except i think it was renamed. the BFM on the wiki is yet another.
22:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i will have to describe how dumb this was in long form
22:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> previously youtube had a button that brought up a menu on which you could select a resolution, and three buttons for different player sizes
22:13:47 <Koen_> oerjan: I use firefox 23.0.1 on Mac OS X 10.6.8
22:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> what they have done is made the resolution menu button bring up a submenu, to which two player size buttons have been moved, and the resolution options have been moved into their own secondary drop-down menu within this
22:14:33 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: does anybody use any size other than "default" or "fullscreen"?
22:15:10 <Koen_> so there's a subsubmenu now?
22:16:39 <oerjan> Koen_: *sigh* now it looks like crap in IE, but how does it look to you?
22:17:25 <Koen_> oerjan: hum well right now it looks fine it's in a nice rectangle
22:17:40 <Koen_> but earlier today I sware it had a horizontal scrolling thingy
22:18:38 <oerjan> Koen_: yes, i added some css to make it have the browser wrap instead of containing whitespace
22:19:04 <pikhq> Koen_: It's called PEBBLE; it's not been touched in ages, but I do have it up on github. http://github.com/pikhq/pebble
22:19:04 <Koen_> yes, I messaged you after you made that edit
22:20:02 <Koen_> pikhq: that's very tempting but I'm trying to talk myself into learning Erlang and I don't think learning a brainfuck macro language will help
22:20:18 <Koen_> however Bike might be interested
22:20:34 <pikhq> Fair warning, knowledge of Tcl helps a lot.
22:20:35 <oerjan> elliott: this is bad, word-wrap: break-word alone looks perfect in IE (presumably like the rectangle Koen_ sees now, but adding white-space: pre-wrap to fix it for Koen_ makes it look like crap in IE :(
22:20:50 <oerjan> even worse than the /// quine does
22:20:59 <pikhq> (it works by abusing Tcl into doing my bidding)
22:21:37 <Koen_> pikhq: yes I considered learning Tcl buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut it's not on top of my list
22:21:56 <oerjan> Koen_: let me guess, http://esolangs.org/wiki////#Quine is also one long line to you now?
22:22:13 <Koen_> (incidentally I'm afraid the amount of thing I'm not doing because I have other things I want to do first is getting huger and huger every day but the amount of things I actually do is not)
22:22:25 <Koen_> oerjan: indeed it is
22:24:26 <pikhq> Koen_: Fair enough. Tcl is pretty interesting from a language design perspective, but eh.
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22:25:07 <Koen_> well thanks for the info anyway
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22:28:36 <oerjan> elliott: ok how do i add white-space: pre-wrap _only_ for firefox
22:29:52 <oerjan> elliott: but IE turns that into crap and firefox doesn't wrap without it :(
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22:37:01 <oerjan> elliott: less ideally, how to do it anyhow?
22:37:43 <elliott> you can't do it inline from an article
22:38:07 <elliott> browser-sniffing is really bad... there is probably a better way to make things look consistent
22:38:15 <elliott> but I don't know what it would be
22:38:25 <elliott> I forget the CSS syntax for casing on that stuff anyway, so I couldn't tell you
22:40:53 <oerjan> i fear that this problem is too obscure to search for :(
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22:46:48 <olsner> maybe you could use a media query for something that only firefox happens to support
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22:57:50 <Bike> so, a friend of mine thinks php-style $$vars are a good idea.
22:57:53 <Bike> how do i talk them out of this
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22:58:24 <Bike> he doesn't know php. there's still hope
22:58:47 <elliott> that means he independently invented the idea. that's even worse!
22:59:09 <mnoqy> maybe he learned about them without knowing the rest of php? regardless though...
23:00:06 <Bike> independent invention. he came up with lexical escape in the same message, too, so like i dunno
23:01:25 <Bike> look i don't know what it's called
23:01:48 <Bike> like let/cc but less reified?? whatever
23:05:28 <kmc> what are $$vars
23:05:58 <Bike> $var is the variable called "var", $$var is the variable whose name is $var's value
23:06:21 <elliott> named after their deserved salary
23:06:23 <kmc> Bike: oh god
23:06:30 <Bike> basiccally, yes.
23:07:33 <kmc> Perl has that
23:07:42 <kmc> I think it's disallowed by use strict though
23:07:56 <kmc> in favor of the "actual" var references which are "a bit less terrible"
23:08:30 <kmc> Bike: probably you talk them out of it by figuring out what their use case is and showing how it's done better with some other construct
23:08:35 <kmc> usually lambda ;)
23:08:46 <Bike> i think he's just philosophizing rather than having specifics in mind
23:08:55 <kmc> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom
23:08:59 <Bike> (i just suggested a hash table)
23:09:25 <olsner> hash tables are probably called lists in php
23:09:26 <elliott> it could be interesting if you didn't represent variable names as strings.
23:09:33 <elliott> I guess perl's reference stuff is basically that
23:09:34 <kmc> you have to GC a hash table manually though
23:09:39 <elliott> olsner: they're called "arrays"
23:09:49 <Bike> i do not want to get into gc with this guy >_>
23:10:03 <kmc> just make him do all of SICP
23:10:52 <Bike> maybe it's the school.
23:11:00 <Bike> my OS prof was an APL programmer
23:13:47 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:14:40 <Bike_> http://25.media.tumblr.com/44962a2571e3edce3b256f3860407b46/tumblr_mt0yu2XWbB1rwn6y8o4_1280.jpg have some biogears
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23:15:31 <Bike> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6151/1254.full yes
23:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> "Gears are found rarely in animals" your tax dollars at work
23:18:44 <Bike> that's a true science fact and don't you forget it
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23:26:45 <oerjan> can anyone look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#dupdog in firefox plz
23:28:20 <Bike> sure, what should i see
23:30:05 <oerjan> nicely rectangularly wrapped box of incomprehensible text
23:30:10 <Bike> it looks like it does in chrome but with horizontal scrolling instead of a big honking textblock
23:30:13 <Bike> oh. no i don't see wrapping.
23:30:48 <oerjan> i was hoping i could use the firefox-only property :(
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23:32:17 <oerjan> Bike: the chrome view is presumably like what i want, but i cannot get firefox and IE to agree
23:32:28 <Bike> ~web programming~
23:32:30 <oerjan> (i get _either_ of them to agree, but not at the same time)
23:33:36 <oerjan> basically firefox _needs_ white-space:pre-wrap to wrap at all, which IE and chrome don't. but that messes up _how_ IE wraps, which it doesn't in firefox and chrome.
23:33:58 <elliott> look at white-space or whatever it's called maybe.
23:34:14 <Bike> monotone: any advice?
23:34:14 <oerjan> (given the word-wrap:break-word property which all seem to do right, in a sense)
23:34:24 <pikhq> Is there a way to override the white-space:pre-wrap in IE?
23:34:34 <oerjan> elliott: i did. then i tried to add a vendor prefix.
23:34:56 <pikhq> Also, is white-space:pre-wrap actually sane and conformant, such that any normal browser should "just work" with that?
23:35:22 <pikhq> If so, pretend IE is the broken one, and give IE some extra CSS in an IE conditional comment.
23:35:36 <oerjan> pikhq: IE doesn't accept conditional comments any longer iirc
23:35:45 <pikhq> Oh blah, they did remove that in IE 10.
23:35:58 <Sgeo> Tcl has too many ways to pass code to execute around
23:36:06 <Sgeo> COmmand name, command prefix, scripts, script prefix
23:37:07 <Sgeo> Also, gensym as a builtin command would be nice
23:37:18 <Sgeo> Instead of every single package that needs a gensym implementing gensym
23:38:32 <oerjan> ok presumably -ms-white-space may not exist because IE was the last to support the property, or something.
23:39:07 <oerjan> but -moz-white-space i've seen listed, so why doesn't that work :(
23:39:16 <elliott> vendor prefixes aren't meant to work once the stuff is standard
23:39:20 <elliott> they're not for browser sniffing
23:40:32 <oerjan> i have to stop because i'm getting angry.
23:41:57 <oerjan> (my general problem with all computer configuration, that)
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23:47:11 <oerjan> basically, you cannot win. _either_ things get brittle because people do vendor-specific things all over the place, or they get brittle because you cannot overrule what a browser actually does wrong.
23:47:52 <quintopia> what was all that listing about earlier
23:47:58 <Sgeo> pikhq: please teach me how to read. I was going to complain about coroutine not taking a command prefix, but it does take command + args, so that's sufficient
23:48:03 <oerjan> the only solutions are gigantic hacks that need constant maintenance not to become brittle themselves.
23:48:57 <oerjan> eventually the hacks become embedded into standards, making the whole thing too complicated for an amateur programmer to bother with.
23:49:32 <oerjan> but you all knew this already.
23:50:42 <Roujo> oerjan: What troubles you, child
23:51:10 <oerjan> Roujo: i'm waiting for the pain killers to hit, and for someone to solve the crappiness of programming.
23:51:28 * Roujo pats oerjan on the back
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23:57:30 <monotone> oerjan: I think Internet Explorer's behavior might actually be right here.
23:57:51 <monotone> All the wrapping happens after punctuation-to-letter transitions, which are normal line breaking points.
23:58:52 <monotone> So if you turn on "white-space: pre-wrap;" it'll wrap lines there first, then only break up long words where it has to.
23:59:29 <oerjan> obviously no one considered the use case of wanting _only_ exact end of line wrapping when making the standards.
00:00:15 <oerjan> so the differences are probably not even considered a bug
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00:02:40 <oerjan> all my attempts at googling rectangular blocks of text seem to give pages talking about putting text inside a rectangle, which may still wrap arbitrarily there.
00:04:00 <oerjan> or about wrapping text _around_ a rectangle.
00:05:09 <monotone> You may as well just manually break the lines, unless that's prohibited in this language...
00:06:38 <oerjan> monotone: all my recent css changes were to programs that cannot have whitespace in them
00:06:53 <oerjan> not without major redesign, anyway
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00:08:34 <oerjan> i wonder if text-wrap:suppress would have worked if any browsers supported it
00:09:19 <oerjan> the danger is that the browser would still prefer normal break points.
00:09:20 -!- augur has joined.
00:14:00 <oerjan> dammit setting word-break still makes it prefer the usual break points.
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00:34:36 <oerjan> Bike: can you look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#dupdog again?
00:35:25 <oerjan> i managed to find http://jsbin.com/bulletproof-responsive-pre/2/edit
00:36:08 <oerjan> and adding the IE line from their made it look good to me
00:36:59 <oerjan> elliott: it the \9 something fiendish?
00:37:17 <elliott> yeah, I think it's exploiting a parser bug
00:37:21 <elliott> or at least a parser disagreement
00:37:51 <elliott> lots of evil like this circa the early 2000s: http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html
00:37:53 <oerjan> anyway, it's the first thing i found that seems to even understand my problem :P
00:38:23 <kmc> oh that guy (Tantek Çelik) sits next to me at Mozilla SF
00:39:02 <kmc> i showed him some videos of trains.
00:39:20 <kmc> the owner of the domain elliott just linked to
00:41:22 <oerjan> elliott: ok it's a hack but does the result look ok?
00:42:22 <Bike> sorry i'm too busy dealing with printers to help
00:42:34 <oerjan> the attack of the zombie printers
00:42:40 <Bike> 27 jobs in queue and the first is from an hour but hell if i can fix anything!!
00:43:09 <Bike> i think i'll just print in another lab that doesn't suspect anything
00:43:14 <oerjan> anyone else with firefox?
00:43:33 <elliott> oerjan: can I interest you in a firefox installer? :P
00:44:35 <oerjan> now to make pizza, i think
00:44:51 <Bike> i see oerjan is an experienced web programmer
00:48:09 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity896.html
00:52:07 <oerjan> obviously not, there's no way the two lines are compatible without some serious hacking.
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00:57:40 <oerjan> wait scratch that, the solution is obvious: just bring your children and register them as web developers. that automatically implies the rest.
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01:10:47 <Bike> https://i.cloudup.com/YTMd2VkRWl-2000x2000.jpeg Fox explains github
01:14:07 <oerjan> elliott: i put it in a class definition, since it's pretty long and at least then we can replace it if we find something better.
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01:22:37 <Roujo> The rest is twitch-worthy, but more or less right =P
01:22:44 <Roujo> But the "pull request"... Nope
01:22:53 <Bike> gotta request a pull on that reposotory
01:23:30 <Roujo> What, is Github going public?
01:24:03 <Bike> https://github.com/blog/53-github-services-ipo maybe?
01:26:38 <elliott> Bike: that's a blog post from 2008 and it says the title is a lie in the first sentence... :p
01:27:40 <Bike> elliott: the fox image is undated!!
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01:45:10 <oerjan> elliott: the atrocities have now been properly documented.
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01:58:39 <elliott> oerjan: you're good at the admin thing
01:58:44 <elliott> doing all this work for me.
02:01:39 <Bike> well, this is a new and exciting printer problem, it interprets everything i print as one blank page.
02:01:42 <Bike> fuck everything.
02:02:05 <oerjan> why would you want to fuck a blank page
02:02:33 <Bike> because it's there
02:02:43 <oerjan> paper cuts are nasty, man
02:03:54 <oerjan> in the mean time, you might take a hard reload on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#dupdog to confirm the latest hack works in firefox too.
02:03:56 <Roujo> Not when your dick's made out of metal
02:04:02 <Roujo> Although I should really get that checked
02:04:21 <oerjan> (it needs to reload common.css)
02:05:39 <oerjan> (it _should_ work, since i stole it from elsewhere.)
02:06:37 <oerjan> (it might not work in less common browsers since i only stole one line of it.)
02:08:02 <oerjan> in particular i did not steal the line with a webkit comment.
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02:17:24 <Roujo> `reload common.css
02:17:25 <HackEgo> Reload of common.css complete.
02:17:43 <HackEgo> echo Reload of $1 complete.
02:18:05 <Roujo> Yes, it's primitive
02:18:08 <oerjan> Roujo: i'm afraid that will only work for HackEgo's browser.
02:18:16 <Roujo> That's all we need
02:18:27 <Roujo> We just need to install lynx there and browse via him, over IRC
02:18:38 <HackEgo> install: missing destination file operand after `lynx' \ Try `install --help' for more information.
02:18:39 <HackEgo> bash: version: command not found
02:18:50 <Roujo> `run install lynx lynx
02:18:52 <HackEgo> install: cannot stat `lynx': No such file or directory
02:19:02 <HackEgo> --2013-09-13 02:19:02-- http://hats/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-09-13 02:19:02 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
02:19:14 <Roujo> `run wget http://psychose.ca
02:19:17 <HackEgo> --2013-09-13 02:19:15-- http://psychose.ca/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-09-13 02:19:16 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
02:19:26 <Roujo> It's blocked altogether
02:19:44 <oerjan> hint: HackEgo has a whitelist for web access.
02:20:00 <oerjan> hint 2: `fetch works around it.
02:20:27 <oerjan> `fetch http://psychose.ca
02:20:28 <HackEgo> http://psychose.ca: Scheme missing.
02:20:36 <oerjan> `fetch http://psychose.ca
02:20:38 <HackEgo> 2013-09-13 02:20:37 URL:http://psychose.ca/ [78/78] -> "index.html" [1]
02:20:48 <HackEgo> <html> \ <head> \ <title>Psychose</title> \ </head> \ \ <body>Yayyyy!</body> \ </html>
02:21:28 <oerjan> the catch is that `fetch is not useable from other commands.
02:30:16 <coppro> http://imgur.com/7tImjmw
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02:34:15 <oerjan> i was about to ask fungot but he's gone again.
02:34:39 <oerjan> which raises the question: has fungot ever been seen together with that thing
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03:11:57 <tswett> So I pondered how this Hylisk program would translate into Haskell: "module Main where main :: World -> World; main = \x -> x"
03:12:17 <tswett> I concluded that "\x", "->", and "x" would translate to "return ()", ">>", and "return ()", respectively.
03:12:27 <tswett> Thus, "module Main where main :: IO (); main = return () >> return ()"
03:14:24 <tswett> If "\x -> x" were to be translated into a Haskell type a -> a instead of a Haskell type IO a, it would, of course, translate as "id . id"
03:15:37 <tswett> Yeah, man, dang, amirite.
03:41:54 <myndzi> sometimes irc 'help' channels really make me rage
03:42:20 <myndzi> gotta love it when you get a guy who's doing everything he can to show he's smarter than you instead of actually doing something simple like pasting a link
03:44:11 <oerjan> you'll just have to change to doing everything in haskell
03:44:37 <oerjan> ok they'll still show they're smarter than you, but they'll _also_ try to help.
03:46:46 <tswett> "Hey, I'm having trouble working through Linux From Scratch." "Do it in Haskell."
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04:15:25 <Sgeo> This reminds me, I should do Linux From Scratch
04:16:08 <kmc> does LFS give you a modern Linux desktop or is it @90s_Linux_User all the way
04:16:59 <Sgeo> Doesn't matter, I'm not planning on using it as a 'real' system
04:17:23 <kmc> it matters as far as whether it teaches you "how things really work"
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04:20:53 <pikhq> kmc: LFS proper gives you a fairly sane build environment *for* a modern Linux desktop that just happens to be missing nearly every dependency.
04:21:07 <pikhq> BLFS describes how to build stuff you'd care about, like, say, XFCE.
04:21:50 <Sgeo> pikhq: do you still like Tcl?
04:22:04 * Sgeo is currently on a Tcl kick
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04:22:40 <pikhq> I consider it a fairly good example of how to do language minimalism without making something utterly impractical.
04:23:37 <pikhq> I mean really, you can do a Tcl implementation in like 500 lines of not-crazy C.
04:24:01 <Sgeo> Can a Tcl be done in a little bit of not-crazy LSL?
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04:24:05 <Sgeo> I should attempt to do that
04:24:37 <Sgeo> Although, this 500 not-crazy C implementation, might not be as efficient as the official implementation?
04:24:51 <Sgeo> The official implementation doesn't internally do EIAS
04:25:34 <pikhq> The official implementation is a bytecode compiler, and does more "everything can be a string" than EIAS.
04:25:58 <Sgeo> Can a suspended coroutine be a string?
04:26:23 <Sgeo> I'm imaginine everything in the Tcl universe being serializable... except suspended coroutines
04:36:37 <oerjan> just keep a serializable continuation.
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04:40:43 <kmc> tcl hhas coroutines?
04:43:33 <pikhq> Not to my knowledge.
04:44:07 <pikhq> Though you could probably hack it in via stack inspection. :)
04:44:22 <pikhq> Shame the call stack isn't actually first class.
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04:51:54 <Sgeo> kmc: pikhq: new to 8.6: http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.6/TclCmd/coroutine.htm
04:56:55 <Sgeo> Also, there's a built-in OO system in 8.6
04:57:19 <Sgeo> Intended more to be a framework on which to make OO systems, but usable independently in and of itself
04:57:37 <Bike> how would the call stack being first class work
04:58:15 <Sgeo> In Tcl specifically, or in general?
04:58:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: That was 8.5.
04:58:28 <pikhq> I think 8.6 added to it though.
04:58:35 <Bike> in general, i guess
04:58:55 <Sgeo> http://wiki.tcl.tk/18152
04:59:08 <Sgeo> Bike: not sure how, but Smalltalk does it
04:59:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: Ah, yes, a wrapper for the constructs 8.5 had.
04:59:45 <Sgeo> pikhq: I think there was an independent package for 8.5 and it became part of core in 8.6
04:59:47 <Bike> i mean the data structure's simple to imagine. a stack made up of frames.
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06:49:04 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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07:01:17 <HackEgo> olist 918: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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07:52:27 <oerjan> the bikes keep rolling past
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08:32:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/Pcjf?c best macro?
08:38:22 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", 01001);
08:39:11 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: can it just use 16 macros B_0000..B_1111 and make B4(x) expand to the expansion of B##x?
08:39:32 <oerjan> !c print("%d",(((01001)&1)|(((01001)>>2)&2)|(((01001)>>4)&4)|(((01001)>>6)&8)));
08:39:43 <oerjan> !c printf("%d",(((01001)&1)|(((01001)>>2)&2)|(((01001)>>4)&4)|(((01001)>>6)&8)));
08:41:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's the standard set on that bot.
08:41:29 <fizzie> !c printf("%d", 0b1001); /* the power of GCC extensions */
08:42:00 <Deewiant> geordi or something like that?
08:44:24 <fizzie> And sure, it's easy enough to use 16 macros for B4 -- but the octal approach can go up to a B22.
08:44:52 <fizzie> (01111111111111111111111 is less than 2^64.)
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08:50:39 <fizzie> TIL: a cow is more likely to stand up in the next 15 minutes the longer it has been lying down, but not any more likely to lie down in the next 15 minutes the longer it has been standing up.
08:51:00 <fizzie> (2013 Ig Nobel Prices were given out recently.)
08:51:44 <fizzie> (Also learned: our university library agreements include the Applied Animal Behaviour Science journal.)
08:54:43 <oerjan> so cows stand up exponentially
08:55:29 <oerjan> fizzie: is that from an elsevier bundle?
08:55:42 <fizzie> It's an Elsevier journal, anyway.
08:56:05 <oerjan> also, can you guess what is currently missing...
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08:57:27 <oerjan> probably bike, he's very on and off today
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09:44:29 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VeGL "lies, more lies, and documentation."
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11:21:26 <Jafet> fizzie: it doesn't say that it doesn't turn on other optimizations
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12:56:13 <boily> Roujo: http://pastebin.ca/2449462
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13:25:27 <Gregor> fizzie: There is a flag to get gcc to give you all the flags that -Owhatever expands into.
13:27:34 <boily> hm. there is such a thing as Objective-C++.
13:27:53 <Gregor> Yes, it's for gluing objc to C++
13:28:42 <boily> oh. I was confused for a moment because of the clashing object models.
13:29:34 <Gregor> It basically exists so that Safari can be written using an Objective-C UI and C++ VM ;)
13:30:55 <boily> now I'm disgusted.
13:48:31 <Gregor> Next up, Object-PL/I++
13:48:42 <Gregor> Nowait, Objective-Fortran++
13:50:27 <boily> I think Object-PL/I++ is the most terrifying.
13:51:13 <Gregor> Objective-COBOL++Script.NET?
13:52:36 * boily runs away from Gregor. “AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!”
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14:04:10 <boily> the Igs are in! http://www.improbable.com/ig/winners/#ig2013
14:07:54 <Bike> Beauty Is in the Eye of the Beer Holder
14:09:19 <Bike> ok i'm pretty honestly impressed by the archaelogy one
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14:10:20 <Bike> huh, i see one of the 2012 winners on twitter all the time. didn't know they did the eiffel study
14:12:32 <boily> parboiling a dead shrew. what the fungot where they thinking.
14:12:32 <fungot> boily: must be canadia
14:12:46 <boily> well, in fact, it is.
14:14:15 <Bike> that's just it, it's actually a pretty good idea
14:14:23 <Bike> i mean how else would you tell which bones would survive?
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14:25:06 <boily> Bike: that's besides the main problem of why would you voluntarily eat a parboiled dead shrew.
14:25:50 <Taneb> boily, guess what I had to drink with my lunch
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14:27:46 <boily> Taneb: I'm curious. or in that case, I think you are the one who was curioused.
14:28:03 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Fri Sep 13 15:28:06
14:28:20 <Taneb> I think your thought patterns are along the right line, as indeed I was curious
14:28:31 <Taneb> And my drink satisfied my curiosity
14:30:16 <boily> Taneb: an argentinian coworker supplies me with mate tea-bags while we wait for another argentinian coworker to replenish the main mate stock.
14:30:36 <Taneb> boily, getting colder
14:31:19 <boily> it was only a tangential beverage. I still support the Hexhamite Botanical Infusion Hypothesis.
14:39:48 <Roujo> @ask boily What would you recommend to me re: learning Japanese?
14:51:15 <boily> I'm still here. only having weird python errors.
14:52:15 <boily> Roujo: I'd say the “Minna no Nihongo” textbooks, because they are popular, and we went through them in uni.
14:52:51 <Roujo> @tell boily I know you're here, I just wanted to ask you something so I @asked it
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15:08:20 <boily> @tell Roujo you vile bot abuser.
15:08:45 <lambdabot> boily said 24s ago: you vile bot abuser.
15:09:09 <Roujo> boily: Also, thanks fot the tip, I'll look into those ^^
15:10:01 <boily> Roujo: as I said yesterday, I can lend you mine.
15:10:30 <kmc> fungot: sing me a song
15:10:31 <fungot> kmc: i never found the original paper on syntactic closures? syntax-case ( obviously not... :)
15:10:31 <Roujo> Ah, I missed that =P
15:10:47 <Roujo> Did I mess it up again?
15:10:48 <kmc> ^style hats
15:10:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:11:03 <kmc> ^style europarl
15:11:03 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
15:11:07 <kmc> fungot: sing me a song of eurocrats
15:11:10 <fungot> kmc: mr president, this report reflects the policy consensus between the partners, a process that began in 1989 with the first phase of the pig cycle. one thing is certain: we should insist that other contributors fulfil their commitments. otherwise the gap between levels of prosperity in the region? to my way of thinking, mrs ghilardotti, particularly, within the framework of protectionism. moreover, this draft, in its opinion
15:11:23 <Roujo> Is it possible for us to add themes to the list?
15:11:37 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:13:54 <boily> fizzie: I think Roujo wants you to add a new fungostyle.
15:14:31 <Roujo> Yeah, I think the RFCs might be pretty cool to markov from ^^
15:14:43 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
15:14:50 <Roujo> This might get redundant
15:15:02 <boily> fungot: do you redund with a runcible spoon?
15:15:03 <fungot> boily: just to help an fnord archive)
15:22:57 <fizzie> There are some instructions about the style-making machinery.
15:23:25 <fizzie> The RFCs do not sound like a bad idea.
15:24:56 <fizzie> I'm more inclined to add things if someone else does the necessary preprocessing into the "one full IRC comment per line, no ASCII art and page numbers and such" format, though.
15:32:01 <Roujo> Sure, that was my original question:
15:32:08 <Roujo> <+Roujo> Is it possible for us to add themes to the list?
15:32:25 <Roujo> I was ready to do the work needed, I just wanted to know if I had the rights to do it
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15:32:47 <fizzie> Well, no. It needs the editing of some files.
15:33:02 <Roujo> What do you mean by "one full IRC comment per line"?
15:33:26 <fizzie> I mean, one example of the sort of a thing it should generate as a single comment.
15:33:45 <fizzie> The "can stop here" flags are set based on that.
15:34:13 <fizzie> (The comment length model is particularly cruddy.)
15:34:20 <Roujo> Okay, so it's not a pure markov thing
15:34:47 <fizzie> It's more or less the same, just the viewpoint is slightly different.
15:35:08 <oerjan> an ngram model is just a markov model with a sliding window state
15:35:17 <Roujo> I have sliding windows at home
15:36:00 <oerjan> `run echo "An ngram model is just a markov model with a sliding window state" >wisdom/'ngram model'
15:36:19 <oerjan> hm should markov be capitalized
15:36:40 <oerjan> `run echo "An ngram model is just a Markov model with a sliding window state" >wisdom/'ngram model'
15:36:54 <fizzie> Roujo: http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2007/isbn9789512288946/article4.pdf -- that's what it uses.
15:37:29 <oerjan> i suppose this would be technically falls if the ngram model had n unbounded. but i don't think fizzie does that.
15:37:52 <oerjan> i cannot even blame autocorrection.
15:38:06 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't. But it is a variable-length ngram model.
15:39:14 <fizzie> (Still, that's mostly a representation detail.)
15:39:56 <oerjan> i suppose you could have variable width windows.
15:40:27 <oerjan> obviously the width won't increase by more than 1 each step.
15:40:59 <fizzie> Roujo: If you *really* want to "do the work", you can go all the way to the actual model files used by fungot. But that requires getting some software.
15:41:00 <fungot> fizzie: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going to the theater of others. god keep. i will walke my selfe, richard. then, heaven, i love thee well; and, by my friend, c
15:41:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:42:14 <oerjan> i wonder if any of that was not shakespeare.
15:42:39 <fizzie> I don't think "hit every stupid person" was necessarily Shakespeare.
15:44:07 <Roujo> I'm mostly wondering what an actualt "prepared" document looks like. Stripping the page number, table of contents and such is easy enough, but I'm not sure I see what the lines are supposed to look like
15:44:49 <Roujo> Do you still have one of those from the other styles for me to take a look at? =)
15:46:16 <oerjan> for irc it's simple enough i assume, just use the part after : in the PRIVMSG
15:47:00 <oerjan> or after > in our usual style logs
15:47:27 <Roujo> So... just sentences?
15:47:39 <oerjan> for a book there'd be the question of how big blocks to use. maybe entire paragraphs.
15:47:52 <oerjan> you'd want it to be able to continue after a period, after all.
15:48:59 <oerjan> there's nothing really preventing you joining the whole book into line (well, maybe there's a length limit) but that would probably give some unnatural jumps.
15:49:08 <oerjan> across chapters and stuff.
15:49:37 <fizzie> Roujo: Well, I mean, it's really a matter of taste.
15:49:57 <oerjan> basically any point in the book where you want the model to be able to go from one word to the next, you want the two words on the same line.
15:50:03 <fizzie> What kind of things would you like the bot to output as a single reply, pretty much.
15:50:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:50:27 <fizzie> I've used sentences for some styles.
15:50:32 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
15:50:42 <oerjan> fungot: i bet not for this one
15:50:43 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, people outside this house. in the column on the right were disappointed that these were not in a position to consider that although the minutes mentioned specifically the epp group will therefore not support any initiative which stresses the importance of the human race in general and the prospects of enlargement and the report, the european union
15:51:12 <oerjan> fungot: that had disturbingly few periods.
15:51:14 <fungot> oerjan: madam president, i also believe that the introduction of profit sharing through the exchange of information, also exercise control of this house surely has so little room for manoeuvre. what is worse, it has been under intense discussion for days if not weeks. that confirms how right parliament was to start both the accession and negotiation procedures. as a general question. could you not arrange for people to work in
15:51:24 <fizzie> oerjan: It's not exactly strict, because it always has the zero-length context to fall back on.
15:52:19 <fizzie> The stopping is not strictly from the ngram model, it doesn't stop when the sentence-end token happens to be generated (like you might expect).
15:52:23 <oerjan> oh, so it can use that other than at the beginning?
15:53:00 <fizzie> oerjan: More than that: it can't use that at the beginning, because the context at beginning is the sentence-start token, and that always has some possible ways to continue.
15:53:43 <oerjan> um, but that means the zero length context would be even less continuity than starting a new sentence.
15:54:07 <fizzie> (It's just the overall word frequencies.)
15:54:15 <fizzie> But technically if it ends up generating a word that has never been followed by anything, but it decides not to stop there, I think it'll use that.
15:55:14 <oerjan> it feels like it would be more natural to use the sentence-start token for it.
15:55:30 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't think it does.
15:55:40 <fizzie> This is all from memory, it might work slightly differently.
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15:56:14 <fizzie> It's also possible that it actually contains the sentence-end tokens and always stops if one of those is generated, and the extra ad-hoc rules were just an extra on top of that.
15:57:04 <oerjan> fungot: i guess you talk well enough, anyhow.
15:57:05 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, during your final six months as decided at the copenhagen summit in two minutes all i can say that the reason for this is the only possible decision. allow me, on the early warning system was set up in nairobi.
15:57:52 <oerjan> fungot: that does not sound like very good time management.
15:57:54 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, naturally i will be happy to keep parliament fully informed to the greatest possible interest in ensuring that we have failed to keep its position for the future, when it comes to this parliament: is the crisis of which the discharge has been shown with regard to preparations which are not their own personal interests. if a man campaigns for the withdrawal of troops and hardware to be deployed and allowing
15:57:57 <fizzie> As for Europarl, the units for that were single statements made by one speaker.
15:58:03 <fizzie> (They are quite long.)
15:58:18 <fizzie> So there's continuity over sentences there.
15:58:43 <fizzie> And there are some styles where the preprocessing has been quite rudimentary, and there are leftover line breaks, and it sometimes stops right in the middle.
15:58:46 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
15:58:49 <fizzie> fungot: Was this one of those?
15:58:50 <fungot> fizzie: memtop 65061, 65433 ( decimal). if you know that it is set to 0
15:59:04 <fizzie> fungot: ...if I know that, then what?
15:59:04 <fungot> fizzie: searching for game timers, and do not count when it is necessary to select the keyboard.
15:59:52 <fizzie> Still, extracting sentences is one reasonable thing to do.
16:00:57 <oerjan> <Gregor> Next up, Object-PL/I++ <-- i'm thinking of Objectivist-B. you have to start at B, because A is A.
16:01:57 <oerjan> (objectivist-C is of course well known already.)
16:04:06 <fizzie> Yeah, the stopping rule -- assuming the Perl prototype matches fungot -- is, in fact, "for each point where $prefix->{canstop}, stop if rand(20) < (number of generated words)/5 + 1". So it depends partly on the model ('canstop' is set if the sentence-end token is possible in that context), but the probability for generating it is explicitly set based on the current length instead of using its frequency.
16:04:07 <fungot> fizzie: once you've made a sprite onto the stack entries made by for, loading, and change the number of the number is written to with a secondary address of the logical file
16:06:07 <fizzie> In retrospect I really should've used either just the sentence token (and accepted the somewhat bad length distribution modeling), or used a proper separate length model (say, one Gaussian) with parameters set from the data.
16:06:42 <fizzie> Still, "it works", as an engineer would say.
16:06:53 <oerjan> fungot: are you any good at generating gaussians?
16:06:53 <fungot> oerjan: purpose: set ieee bus. remember, that is filled. it is an arbitrary starting point similar to def fn. def fn a(x)=x+7 with a secondary command, it can be reset to 0
16:07:24 <fizzie> I don't think that's how you generate Gaussian random numbers.
16:10:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls that they were simplest to generate in pairs.
16:11:12 <fizzie> The good old Box-Muller.
16:11:34 <fizzie> Both do make a pair of norma deviates from a pair of uniformly distributed numbers.
16:11:53 <fizzie> Another fungot deficiency: it always selects the longest context with words, instead of using the backoff weights. (That's one reason for those loops.)
16:11:53 <fungot> fizzie: by looking at the time, the 6566/ 6567 fetches data from.
16:12:49 <oerjan> istr you removed one of the reasons
16:13:12 <fizzie> Yes, there was also a bug, the details of which I forgot.
16:13:36 <oerjan> something about it only looking at a limited subset of the options, iirc
16:14:13 <fizzie> Yes, the number of ? iterations (each iteration generates 2 bits) was too low for the varikn-generated models.
16:15:21 <fizzie> (The frequencies I get out from varikn are just numbers in the [0, 1] range, which I multiplied with some big constant K because the bot works with integers -- the old styles had actual word counts there, and the numbers were generally smaller.)
16:18:30 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat_algorithm
16:21:21 -!- Koen_ has joined.
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16:22:52 <fizzie> Roujo: Getting back on track, http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/varikn/readme.txt has the instructions if you want to actually make a model (in which case you get to do the parameter-tweaking); or you can skip step 0 and stop at step 1, because the rest is really quite mechanistic.
16:22:52 <fungot> fizzie: large amounts of data is permanently read into these three bits are used to read the output of the sprite's 21-line length.
16:23:08 <fizzie> (If you do want to fiddle with it, the -D and -E parameters in those instructions are "wrong".)
16:23:25 <Roujo> fizzie: Alright, thanks ^^
16:24:33 <fizzie> ...I forgot that step #7 was still there...
16:32:43 <Koen_> oerjan: did you actually modify the dupdog program or is the diff thingy just confused?
16:35:24 <oerjan> Koen_: i took away all the newlines
16:35:45 <Koen_> that's what I thought
16:36:01 <oerjan> and eventually added a pre with the new class
16:36:31 <Koen_> I just wanted to make sure this wasn't "oh hey btw here is an optimization"
16:36:48 <oerjan> Koen_: the idea was to make the formatting by css instead, so that you can cut and paste it correctly.
16:37:26 <oerjan> since the actual program definitely should not have newlines in it.
16:41:07 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:41:11 -!- Koen__ has joined.
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16:52:50 <Roujo> "Bank robbery is punishable by 20 years in federal prison"
16:53:24 <boily> Roujo: did you listen to the whole thing?
16:53:35 <Roujo> I've just gotten to that point
16:54:07 -!- Koen__ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
16:54:27 -!- Koen_ has joined.
16:54:34 <Roujo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7JAns3PsB0
16:54:36 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: the whole shebang → http://youtu.be/MIDuZq7RVAM?list=PLTUlTwlsdlFQhHsAoG7sCxumrigHW-qJk
16:57:25 <boily> I have also the puddle version, but it's OVER 9000 decamyriabytes!
16:58:11 -!- FreeFull has joined.
16:58:17 * Roujo smacks boily around with a calisse de grosse truite
16:59:02 <FreeFull> What is calisse de grosse truite?
16:59:17 <Roujo> "Fucking big trout" =P
16:59:22 <boily> Roujo: MWAH AH AH! moéssi I can make bilingual mauvais jeux de mots!
16:59:23 <HackEgo> FreeFull: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:59:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:59:53 -!- augur has joined.
17:00:05 <FreeFull> Well, I też can mówić w dwóch językach.
17:01:11 <boily> my tongue. it is not happy.
17:01:23 <boily> Roujo: puddle. flaque. make the connection.
17:01:35 <Roujo> boily: I know. Believe me, I know.
17:03:26 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:03:57 <Roujo> `thanks hghbhmmmmhghh
17:03:58 <HackEgo> Thanks, hghbhmmmmhghh. Tghbhmmmmhghh.
17:04:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:05:26 * oerjan swats Roujo and boily for making him listen to this painful thing -----###
17:05:37 * kmc hugs douglass
17:05:39 -!- Bike has joined.
17:05:51 * boily hides behind Bike to dodge oerjan's swat.
17:06:16 * Roujo build a shed around Bike
17:06:19 <elliott> oerjan: if you think that's painful...
17:06:30 * Roujo then debates about the most suitable color for the shed
17:06:39 <Bike> boily: well it's a job where you go to syria to look at centuries-old garbage.
17:06:40 <Bike> it's my favorite color
17:06:47 <kmc> orange! that's right!
17:06:48 <Bike> not even a question tbh......
17:07:15 <oerjan> elliott: oh i'm sure there are far worse things.
17:07:41 <boily> my shirt is orange.
17:08:19 <boily> we're bad at bikeshedding. we need something more... disagreement-prone.
17:09:40 <oerjan> elliott: but there were these words they mentioned that i tried to listen until i found, but it was impossible to hear the words said _and_ having the counting song be at a bearable volume at the same time.
17:09:47 <Roujo> `run cat cat | cat
17:10:49 <HackEgo> cat: run: No such file or directory
17:11:45 <Bike> "| cat" is kind of awesomely pointless
17:12:29 <Roujo> `run cat cat | echo
17:12:40 <Koen_> what! it should echo a newline
17:12:43 <Roujo> `run cat cat | cat | cat | cat | cat
17:12:57 <oerjan> i think that worked perfectly
17:13:24 <oerjan> Koen_: HackEgo strips final newlines.
17:14:59 <oerjan> ^def ul (That's interesting!)S
17:15:14 <boily> \input insert \x0a
17:15:32 <oerjan> ^ what do you think about this?
17:15:42 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a
17:16:38 <fungot> (Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot)S
17:16:50 <fungot> (That Pong alone cannot stop!)S
17:17:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:17:52 <kmc> we have found a bug arising from the fact that Rust macros are not hygenic wrt named loop break labels
17:18:18 <Bike> are rust macros just c style or what
17:18:57 <oerjan> is rust trying to have scheme style hygienic macros
17:19:02 <Roujo> Fun fact. "`run echo rofl" != "`run `which echo` rofl"
17:19:05 <Roujo> And I have no idea why
17:19:28 <Roujo> `run `which echo` rofl
17:19:49 <kmc> Bike: no they are closer to Scheme macros although only recently partially hygenic http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/tutorial-macros.html
17:19:49 <Bike> `run `which cat` cat
17:19:52 <oerjan> Roujo: echo is normally intercepted by the shell for efficiency.
17:20:06 <Bike> kmc: oh, nice.
17:20:42 <Bike> well i don't get this syntax at all but whatever
17:20:47 <kmc> i kinda don't like these special purpose macro languages. just lemme run code at compile time and spit out an AST!
17:21:39 <Bike> you can't expose compiler things like the AST at compile time! the world would go mad
17:21:45 <kmc> but it works out ok so far
17:22:03 <elliott> ASTs are such a poor interface though
17:22:10 <Bike> lisp more like shitsp
17:22:12 <elliott> (not that I really have a better suggestion)
17:22:22 <Bike> what's wrong with asts
17:22:35 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: Rust is a systems language that provides explicit control over allocation, but in a way where the compiler can prove memory safety
17:23:21 <kmc> so it has a few novel features supporting that, and the rest is just like "let's design a systems language for 2013 not 1970" so things like pattern matching, macros, real module system, etc
17:24:15 <elliott> did Phantom_Hoover just successfully troll kmc? :p
17:24:37 <Bike> troll? i thought he just asked what rust was and kmc answered
17:24:50 <kmc> it's not like it took me long to compose that answer ;P
17:24:58 <kmc> since people keep asking me that
17:25:13 <elliott> I thought it was in response to
17:25:14 <elliott> 18:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ah but that's why you use lisp
17:25:14 <elliott> 18:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> because it doesn't have syntax, obviously
17:25:15 <boily> kmc probably has a macro to explain rust.
17:25:18 <kmc> if you really want to troll ask "how is this better than Go?"
17:25:24 <Bike> that's too obvious\
17:25:44 <kmc> Go is a completely different language for a completely different niche, and yet people can't stop comparing Rust to it for some reason
17:25:52 <Bike> kmc trolls himself
17:26:30 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, and if you added monads it would basically be haskell
17:26:32 <boily> oerjan: naturellement, mais pourquoi en ce moment-ci?
17:26:48 <Bike> ah, now there's a half-decent troll
17:26:51 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: to Go or Rust?
17:27:04 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:27:24 <elliott> recipe for Haskell: add monads to water and season according to taste
17:27:50 <boily> one day, the majority of languages will have monads in them.
17:27:59 <Bike> a beautiful future
17:28:08 <nooodl> what's the recipe for the strathclyde haskell enhancement
17:28:16 <Bike> random thought: when did "assembly" become a monolithic thing
17:28:25 <nooodl> is it just a bunch of seasoning
17:28:26 <Bike> since it's, not.
17:29:11 <Fiora> Bike: maybe it's like, it's a monolithic thing to people who are kind of outside of it?
17:29:19 <Fiora> and don't really understand it
17:29:21 <Bike> Fiora: well yes, but why
17:29:23 <Roujo> Instant Haskell: Just Add Water! (Ingredients: Pure Monad Powder)
17:29:25 <Bike> or when rather
17:29:32 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: is that a recipe or a personal thing
17:29:35 <Fiora> Bike: maybe it's like, how "functional languages" are a monolithic thing to some peole
17:29:45 <Fiora> like they're al lisp or something I don't know (?)
17:29:52 <Bike> well i mean that's taken as a group
17:29:59 <Bike> they're probably vaguely aware that ML and Lisp have differences
17:30:09 <elliott> I think lisp suffers from that itself
17:30:10 <Bike> but people talk about "assembly" as if it as one language
17:30:18 <Bike> suffers from what, being seen as monolithic?
17:30:19 <elliott> like people lump all the languages with lots of parens into one thing
17:30:24 <Bike> yes it's silly
17:30:42 <oerjan> boily: because Bike asked what's wrong with it
17:30:44 <Bike> the whole "lisp is god" thing doesn't help, but whatever
17:30:46 <elliott> it might just be a thing people do in general, "C/C++" and so on...
17:30:48 * boily gives a stainless bloodless machine-washable ceramic stabbing salt-shaker with nice floral motifs
17:30:56 <kmc> yeah the space of languages looks really different depending on where you are
17:31:02 <elliott> I guess assembly kind of has it the worst given that it's not even really a language family so much as a type of language
17:31:17 <kmc> people will argue forever about the differences between Python and Ruby and JavaScript and they all seem kinda the same to me
17:31:21 <Bike> at least c++ is "almost" a superset of C. scheme and common lisp and elisp are pretty damn different
17:31:33 <Bike> what's a little dynamic scope between friends, i guess
17:31:43 * boily gives the aforementioned salt-shake to noodl. you know, verb target and stuff...
17:31:51 <kmc> Bike: the whole point of "Lisp" is that you get to cherry-pick the language attributes you like from Common Lisp, Scheme, Clojure, etc. to support whataver point you're trying to make
17:31:52 <Bike> i just wish we could compile any source into a binary module and link wildly with other so compiled modules.
17:32:04 <kmc> Bike: hey wanna add C++ FFI to Rust?
17:32:08 <kmc> that would really help us out
17:32:13 <kmc> sincerely, servo team
17:32:24 <Bike> i know a guy who's trying to make a CL implementation with a C++ ffi, presumably because he's crazy
17:32:29 <kmc> presumablyp
17:32:43 <kmc> I don't think you can do C++ FFI in general without outputting lots of C++ code and compiling it
17:32:49 <Bike> yeah that's what he's doing >_<
17:32:56 <kmc> well then at least he's on the right track!!
17:33:06 <Bike> i mean, i just feel like this whole language separation thing is kind of wrong
17:33:25 <kmc> yeah, unfortuantely languages tend to have type systems / memory models that are hard to reconcile
17:33:38 <kmc> which is why we resort to lowest common denominator: C types or JSON or such
17:33:42 <Bike> you could have a binary object file that defines calling convention and so on, and have a universal symbol something
17:34:01 <kmc> plus, like, stuffing a bunch of language runtimes into the same process can be tricky
17:34:39 <Bike> i guess i don't know enough about that
17:34:46 <Bike> don't even know many languages where the runtime is a .so
17:34:47 <elliott> trying to force every language to play together nicely kinda just homogenises the languages you can use
17:35:29 <elliott> you can sorta go for only really supporting one kind of language well but having really good tight integration between everything, or supporting a wider variety of languages but everything is kinda taped together haphazardly, unix is more the latter
17:35:56 <Bike> maybe i'm just annoyed at rubygems and whatever working by downloading source.
17:36:38 <Bike> oh well. not my field. fuck computers.
17:38:13 <Bike> because i have an adamatzky fetish
17:39:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Bike wants all of the pain of CS without any of the money (;_;)
17:39:29 <elliott> that's a ;_; in parens!! not a ;_; on a face
17:39:42 <Roujo> Could be both, really
17:40:01 <elliott> how much do neuroethologists get paid... what do neuroethologists even do??
17:40:15 <Bike> well pretty soon i'm going to be a lab monkey
17:40:31 <kmc> oh, did you get one of the research jobs?
17:40:32 <Bike> all the money, and none of the pain because none of my supervisors and employers care about how bad my code is if it works
17:40:50 <Bike> kmc: interview today, but even if i don't get that one i'm pretty set on getting /a/ lab job
17:40:55 <kmc> cool, good luck
17:41:32 <Bike> it will probably involve simulating the activity of muscle proteins, but that's just a guess
17:48:27 <boily> ~duck neuroethology
17:48:28 <metasepia> Neuroethology (from Greek - neuron "nerve" and & - ethos "habit or custom") is the evolutionary and comparative approach to the study of animal behavior and its underlying mechanistic control by the nervous system.
17:49:02 <boily> Greek language is weird. how in fungot can you utter a ½...
17:49:02 <fungot> boily: there are several filter controls to set the system clock.
17:49:45 <boily> ~duck neurotheology
17:49:45 <metasepia> Neurotheology, also known as spiritual neuroscience, attempts to explain religious experience and behaviour in neuroscientific terms.
17:50:04 <Bike> avoid neuroetheology, hth.
17:50:18 <Bike> wow good misspelling.
17:51:07 <Bike> well there is neurology, if you like.
17:51:15 <boily> Bike: I was curious if neurotheology existed. it does. I am disturbed.
17:51:26 <Bike> it's not that great.
17:51:39 <kmc> it seems like a totally good and reasonable thing to study......................
17:51:42 <kmc> if a kind of dumb name
17:51:44 <boily> ~duck neurogeriatology
17:51:53 <Roujo> ~duck neuroscatology
17:52:02 <boily> ~duck neuropathology
17:52:02 <metasepia> Neuropathology is the study of disease of nervous system tissue, usually in the form of either small surgical biopsies or whole autopsy brains.
17:52:20 <Bike> kmc: most of what i know aboutit involves stupid arguments about how shocking one part of the brain making people more religious means something something dawkins fanboyism
17:52:28 <kmc> I don't care about any of that
17:52:39 <kmc> i'd like a rationalistic view of the weird shit I've experienced on drugz
17:52:53 <kmc> I don't think it'll happen any time soon, though
17:53:02 <kmc> it's probably Hard Problem complete
17:53:04 <Roujo> ~duck neurosociology
17:53:04 <metasepia> Neurosociology is the application of neurobiology to the study of society.
17:53:23 <Roujo> The more we know =P
17:53:23 <Bike> is this surprising people
17:53:33 <Bike> "neuro-" is like "computational" in terms of sticking it in front of everything
17:53:42 <Roujo> s/is this/are these/
17:53:51 <Roujo> Answer: Maybe, I haven't met them yet
17:54:02 <elliott> ~duck computational neurology
17:54:09 <Bike> neurology is doctoring
17:54:12 <oerjan> <boily> Greek language is weird. how in fungot can you utter a ½... <-- you still haven't fixed that unicode bug?
17:54:12 <fungot> oerjan: preparatory routines: talk, a special reversed character appear in the
17:54:13 <Roujo> ~duck neurocomputer
17:54:15 <Bike> ~duck compoutational neuroscience
17:54:18 <Roujo> ~duck neurocomputing
17:54:38 <Bike> kmc: but yeah most of this stuff seems like trying to understand the principles of word processor design by examining logic gates.
17:54:42 <Roujo> ~duck neuroprogramming
17:54:58 <Bike> Roujo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromorphic_engineering
17:56:26 <boily> oerjan: *LA LA LA* can't hear you through the encoding problems *LA LA LA*
17:56:58 <metasepia> A trademark used for a canned meat product consisting primarily of chopped pork pressed into a loaf.
18:00:03 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
18:00:15 -!- Bike has joined.
18:01:23 <Bike> soon, there will be no psychology topic i cannot gesticulate angrily about. MWA HA HA HA HA
18:01:43 <kmc> keep your gesticles in your pants, tia
18:01:55 <Roujo> I don't see how that's going to fix your connection, but eh
18:02:06 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your connection
18:02:14 <Bike> it's a thought
18:02:22 <Roujo> Bike: Most things are
18:03:15 <Bike> wow wrong meme
18:03:19 <Bike> to the corner with you
18:06:40 -!- augur has joined.
18:10:54 <Roujo> I realized a couple of days back that every single IRC channel can be read as an hashtag
18:11:43 <Koen_> what about ##doublehashtagschannels
18:12:06 <mnoqy> you can make hashtags about hashtags can't you
18:12:13 <Bike> «"Burdens are the foundations of ease, & bitter things the forerunners of pleasure" #Rumi #Spiritual #Quote #Esoteric #Mystic #Sufi #Wisdom»
18:12:48 <Roujo> And it gets even better when you think of the # channels
18:12:55 <Bike> #Esoteric : If you keep presenting yourself as a slave, you are a slave because you obey
18:13:05 <Roujo> Because apparently, # is a valid channel name
18:13:24 <Roujo> # on freenode was crap last I went there, though
18:13:45 <Bike> Should We Consider the Symbolism of Monster Energy Drinks as Being Satanic?
18:14:02 <Koen_> is # a requirement of the protocol or of the servers? or just common practice?
18:14:10 <Bike> it means something specific
18:14:14 <Bike> there are also &channels and stuff
18:14:17 <Bike> nobody cares though
18:14:42 <Koen_> what if I held a server on my computer? what if I cared?
18:14:44 <Roujo> #channels are network-wide, &channels are server-specific
18:14:54 <Koen_> there's emphasis on this "I" as I put in in caps
18:14:54 <Roujo> But yeah, they're required by the RFC, AFAIR
18:14:57 <Bike> i just said you don't care koen
18:15:36 <Koen_> what if my name is nobody
18:15:38 <Bike> The Hidden (And Not So Hidden) Messages in Stanley Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut"
18:16:38 <Bike> https://twitter.com/Illumine_Nation good
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18:26:22 <metasepia> A chemist who discovers a laundry additive that rhymes with "bright."
18:28:06 <boily> greco-roman extreme ironing.
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18:51:47 <boily> Roujo: apparently, # is indeed a valid channel name. but is it «#», or «##»?
18:52:06 <Roujo> ## is yet another channel
18:53:23 <boily> uhm. you, like, have, like, joined them all, like.
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18:55:29 <Roujo> I used to hang in #
18:55:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:56:30 <Roujo> But yeah, I do tend to join # on every network I'm on
18:58:25 <Roujo> It's a thing on most networks
18:58:35 <Roujo> But it's banned on some =P
18:58:55 <Roujo> I think Coldfront just says "This channel may not be used"
19:02:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:03:24 <boily> Roujo: trying out the various punctuational channels. I got autokicked from «_».
19:04:31 <boily> and #% is invite only.
19:07:17 <boily> Roujo: say, try to join #¨.
19:08:06 <Roujo> Illegal channel name =P
19:08:32 <boily> someone else who has a client that Accepts the Greatness of the Diæ̈resis?
19:08:45 <Roujo> Nah, it's the server who doesn't want to
19:08:50 <Roujo> [kornbluth.freenode.net][479] Roujo #¨ :Illegal channel name
19:10:22 <boily> oh. and if you just «/join ¨»?
19:14:29 -!- Bike has joined.
19:15:29 <Roujo> boily: That aliases to "join #¨"
19:15:41 <Roujo> If I "/quote join ¨"...
19:15:51 <Roujo> [kornbluth.freenode.net][479] Roujo ¨ :Illegal channel name
19:19:50 <Roujo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms-IFYNrjhU
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19:24:19 <ion> roujo: wat
19:27:42 <boily> ion: listen to the thing. discuss with oerjan.
19:29:08 <Taneb> Can someone give me a sensible terminal size to stream Dwarf Fortress with?
19:30:41 <Koen_> is dwarf fortress an ascii motion picture?
19:30:55 <Taneb> Koen_, it's an ANSI universe simulator
19:30:59 <boily> Taneb: 80 × 25 is not good?
19:31:09 <Taneb> boily, it probably is
19:31:38 <boily> Koen_: it's a unicodified CP437 universe simulator, down to sweat drops and eyeball nerves.
19:32:34 <Taneb> I'm streaming Dwarf Fortress, telnet termcast.org
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19:49:00 <Koen_> have we got a stack-based language where there is one data stack, and the program is a list of instructions, with the first instruction dropped before it's executed? and some instructions allow to push a "next instruction" before the rest of the program in function of what's on top of the data stack?
19:49:20 <Bike> underload but slightly suckier
19:49:58 <Koen_> and for so long I have resisted going into how underload works
19:50:29 <Bike> it's pretty easy
19:51:03 <Bike> "it even forms a monoid"
19:51:44 <boily> since when underload is monoidal?
19:51:56 <Bike> since i said so just now keep up motherfucker
19:52:10 <Roujo> That's what I got from monads. They're like single gonads, really.
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19:53:42 * boily replaces Bike with a small semigroup
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20:33:47 <elliott> Taneb: someone wants to see your dining room
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21:10:34 <boily> mnoqy: will you remonqy eventually, or are you mnoqy for the foreseeable future?
21:11:14 <mnoqy> it's terminal i'm afraid
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22:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1mbo1y/my_parents_dont_believe_in_btc_how_can_i_convince/cc7o88v
22:07:13 <boily> WORK DOOOOONE! YEEEEES!
22:07:24 <boily> I'm fungotly hungry.
22:07:24 <fungot> boily: to scroll the following:
22:07:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: foodening).
22:07:40 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:07:44 <Bike> that's a lot of scrolling
22:08:20 <Bike> so, does anyone know about that thing where you use commodity GPUs to do subsupercomputing? fiora?
22:09:51 <kmc> subsupercomputing?
22:10:10 <Bike> supercomputing on the cheap, basically.
22:10:19 <kmc> I know a few small things
22:10:24 <Bike> i guess it's just opencl stuff. but i don't know any of that.
22:10:33 <kmc> GPGPU is a general term used here
22:10:36 <Bike> thanks phantom, that was the joke
22:10:45 <olsner> it's probably not very "super" if it's also "cheap"
22:10:47 <Bike> "general-purpose graphical processing unit"?
22:11:21 <Bike> i think you (fiora) linked a paper once about breaking crypto using commodity GPUs or something
22:11:25 <Bike> i don't know. kinda high right now
22:11:41 <Fiora> um. I know a little but like what about it
22:11:57 <Fiora> @_@ that's kind of vague
22:11:59 <Bike> i don't know >_>
22:12:07 <Bike> i am the eternal noob.
22:12:30 <Fiora> like um what do you want to know >_<
22:12:32 <olsner> fungot: did anyone say anything interesting since this morning?
22:12:33 <fungot> olsner: 120 print nam tab(25) " total" 120 for t=0 to 1 depends on the tape at a time. the book. if corresponding bits of color ram. the
22:13:56 <olsner> fungot: I'll just take that as a "maybe"... write funnier things?
22:13:56 <fungot> olsner: if the number at the next available location in the middle of variable storage area. therefore, this register. the
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22:25:46 <Bike> maybe i should just jack a gpu and write fibonacci in opencl or whatever shit
22:25:46 <Bike> what's "hello world" for that
22:29:42 <kmc> `unicode SNOWMAN
22:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm noticing progressively more advertising getting through adblock+...
22:33:04 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'POO'"
22:33:15 <Bike> `unicode PILE OF POO
22:33:17 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'PILE OF POO'"
22:33:18 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'PILE'"
22:33:31 <Bike> hm, i thought that was it for sure
22:33:39 <Bike> oh, it is... is it not in the db?
22:33:51 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'U+1F4A9'"
22:33:58 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name '1F4A9'"
22:33:58 <Bike> `unicode just takes a char name
22:34:01 <Bike> not a codepoint
22:34:01 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'just takes a char name'"
22:34:06 <Bike> look shut up HackEgo
22:34:47 <Bike> how would it be exploitable
22:36:08 <kmc> hey did you all see http://blog.sucuri.net/2013/09/ask-sucuri-non-alphanumeric-backdoors.html non-alphanumeric php backdoor shell
22:36:23 <kmc> this is esoprogramming for sure
22:36:32 <kmc> I keep saying that exploits are weaponized esoprogramming...
22:36:53 <FreeFull> Bike: Since you wanted it so much... )) 💨💩
22:39:21 <olsner> kmc: it involves PHP... do I really want to see?
22:39:29 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
22:39:49 <kmc> @$_[]=@!+_; $__=@${_}>>$_;$_[]=$__;$_[]=@_;$_[((++$__)+($__++ ))].=$_; $_[]=++$__; $_[]=$_[--$__][$__>>$__];$_[$__].=(($__+$__)+ $_[$__-$__]).($__+$__+$__)+$_[$__-$__]; $_[$__+$__] =($_[$__][$__>>$__]).($_[$__][$__]^$_[$__][($__<<$__)-$__] ); $_[$__+$__] .=($_[$__][($__<<$__)-($__/$__)])^($_[$__][$__] );
22:39:56 <kmc> there now you have seen it whether you want to or not
22:40:14 <olsner> ah, luckily Haskell is not susceptible to the same backdoors
22:40:18 <Bike> it's code to run a shell (takes arbitrary calls to do from GET)
22:40:21 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/IZrScxv.jpg
22:40:34 <elliott> kmc are you hacking our aim??
22:40:38 <kmc> little bitty bit
22:40:51 <elliott> no it's definitely hecking
22:41:00 <Bike> why would you heckle an aim
22:41:06 <Bike> aim heckles itself
22:41:10 <olsner> huh. I always thought it was heckling
22:41:57 <FreeFull> kmc: Someone probably reared that train
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22:42:39 <kmc> FreeFull: lolololol
22:45:00 <olsner> I guess a suitably limited version of PHP could make a nice esolang
22:45:52 * kmc nests iframes 50 deep
22:45:59 <olsner> hmm, and where except make is @ a prefix to suspend output?
22:46:15 <elliott> in PHP it suspends errors, I think...
22:46:39 <olsner> kmc: I think most (non-IE) browsers limit iframes to about 9 deep
22:47:06 <kmc> olsner: DOS batch files I think
22:47:21 <olsner> I've tried infintely nested iframes and everyone was fine except oerjan whose browser crashed
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22:48:31 <olsner> so what's the origin of @ as a silencing/error-suppressing prefix?
22:49:02 <kmc> the shape represents your errors spiraling into a black hole
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23:12:40 <kmc> we'll have to agree to disagree
23:12:43 <kmc> hey zzo38, how's it going
23:13:13 <elliott> you use @ to suppress errors because @ is perfect and never has errors!
23:14:15 <elliott> don't give me that look... that... smell
23:15:30 <zzo38> Just wait a few minute please
23:15:33 <zzo38> I will answer in a bit later
23:15:40 <lambdabot> boily said 4d 1h 46m 36s ago: ♪moof♪ you have quotes!
23:15:59 <zzo38> boily: What quotes is that?
23:16:00 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:16:15 <mnoqy> boily added your quotes to the pdf in the topic
23:22:18 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NancyReaganMrTChristmas1983.jpg
23:22:19 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Elvis-nixon.jpg
23:25:02 <elliott> NancyReagenMrTChristmas1983.jpg is definitely up there in terms of good filenames
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23:43:57 <zzo38> I have made some levels of "Attribute Zone" game in QBASIC (I don't have it here right now though); later I intend to put in Famicom, since the game mechanics are based on the limitations of the Famicom PPU.
23:45:27 <kmc> good premise for a game
23:46:46 <zzo38> I don't know if there are other games like that.
23:47:19 <Bike> the platonic spirit of platformer characters must get through the platonic platformer game
23:47:56 <Bike> terrifying imo
23:48:29 <zzo38> Bike: I do not understand you.
23:49:10 <Bike> me neither,man. me neither.
23:49:56 <zzo38> I don't know what a platonic platformer game is either.
23:50:12 <Bike> y'know, world of forms
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23:52:26 <zzo38> "Attribute Zone" is not platformer game though.
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00:28:26 <zzo38> Now instruction of Uselessness RPG 1 includes limit commands. They are: mangan, haneman, baiman, sanbaiman, yakuman.
00:30:18 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
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02:04:00 <Bike> I have been told that Matlab code is like C. It does not seem very much like C.
02:04:53 <Fiora> arrays starting at 1
02:05:57 <Bike> so far differences include: no variable declarations, no types, vectored assignment, newline instead of semicolon, comment character different...
02:06:50 <Bike> matlab is just like lua
02:07:03 <elliott> it's a great way to ruin any language that you're afraid might be at risk of being well-liked
02:07:09 <Bike> oh, and procedural code at the top level.
02:07:46 <elliott> obligatory dijkstra: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html
02:08:22 <elliott> dijkstra's smugness is so adorable
02:09:05 <Bike> i assume this involves BASIC being compared to lua
02:09:18 <Bike> holy shit, is this really a thing he wrote.
02:09:23 <elliott> doubt he would acknowledge lua even if it existed at the time
02:09:39 <elliott> Bike: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd08xx/EWD831.PDF for the full experience
02:10:45 <Bike> oh hey, mesa. haven't heard of that for a while.
02:10:50 <Bike> i'm not reading more djistkra!!
02:11:12 <elliott> it's the same dijkstra. just with more handwriting.
02:13:04 <Bike> haha the conclusion
02:15:52 <zzo38> BASIC is not bad for some things.
02:18:45 <Sgeo> Does Smalltalk make more sense than Lua as a language to start indexing at 1, considering Lua was supposed to play nice with C and Smalltalk had other goals?
02:19:33 <mnoqy> other goals like ??not following the superior convention??
02:19:52 <Bike> there you have it sgeo, you're objectively wrong. sorry about that
02:19:57 <Sgeo> Goals that didn't especially involve playing nice with C
02:21:01 <Sgeo> That is, no matter how good/bad indexing at 1 is, is it worse in Lua than it is in Smalltalk?
02:21:40 <Bike> according to the ol' shittometer... yes, it is worse in lua.
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02:37:47 <zzo38> In QBASIC you can start arrays with whatever integer number you want to.
02:41:43 <zzo38> Therefore you can have some arrays starting at zero, and some starting at one; sometimes it is useful to have starting with other numbers too.
02:42:05 <zzo38> It is too bad that it doesn't allow RETURN to a label inside of a subroutine; you can use that only outside of a subroutine.
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03:00:41 <zzo38> I do often use GOSUB inside of a SUB or FUNCTION routine though; you can share the scope of the subroutine it is inside of, and/or make fall-through labels.
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03:56:42 <zzo38> LYSP doesn't compile in my computer; I get error message about not "dlfcn.h", implicit declaration of "dlsym" and "dlopen", unrecognized "-rdynamic", etc
04:00:35 <zzo38> Probably the dynamic stuff I can remove, but still it says implicit declaration of "sbrk"; what is "sbrk"?
04:04:18 <pikhq> sbrk or "set break" basically lets you expand the heap.
04:04:25 <pikhq> It's used by some mallocs.
04:05:08 <zzo38> This program is defining its own malloc function
04:05:38 <pikhq> Well then, that'd be where it's used.
04:05:43 <zzo38> in order to implement garbage collection.
04:06:15 <zzo38> Yes it is, but what is done with it if the program is using such thing but if it won't work?
04:06:56 <pikhq> Admittedly I'm not sure why.
04:08:21 <zzo38> What exactly is it doing, and can it be imitated by another way if necessary?
04:09:37 <pikhq> You certainly have sbrk.
04:10:06 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Windows.
04:10:25 <pikhq> Hmm, how'd you implement that on Windows...
04:10:52 <pikhq> Anyways. In traditional Unix the heap is done via a "program break". Basically, a pointer to the end of heap. Everything below that is heap you can access.
04:11:01 <pikhq> sbrk moves that pointer.
04:12:10 <pikhq> I'd be unsurprised to find that LYSP could just use malloc instead.
04:12:25 <pikhq> I wouldn't say for certain, but s/sbrk/malloc/ *ought* to work?
04:15:25 <zzo38> It looks like the type is correct at least
04:15:33 <pikhq> It depends pretty heavily on what properties of sbrk they rely upon.
04:16:03 <pikhq> For simple uses the two are identical except that sbrk means you can't use libc functions anymore.
04:16:24 <zzo38> And it does look like used in a way that malloc might work.
04:16:51 <zzo38> What properties would there be?
04:17:19 <pikhq> The pointer returned by sbrk is always contiguous with the previous one.
04:17:45 <pikhq> sbrk(0) returns the last pointer it returned.
04:18:16 <pikhq> sbrk with a negative number moves the program break *back*, basically freeing some number of bytes.
04:18:53 <pikhq> All this is to say, malloc is not always a drop-in replacement for sbrk, but it might be in this case.
04:18:59 <zzo38> From your description it seems it would be contiguous, but the program doesn't seem to use negative numbers, or zero; it only uses sbrk once, and uses as a pointer to a structure.
04:19:25 <pikhq> That's just the program being wrong then. malloc.
04:19:52 <zzo38> It does check if the return value is negative one, though.
04:20:14 <pikhq> sbrk returns -1 on failure, rather than NULL.
04:20:30 <zzo38> From the program it seems if malloc is put there, then it should be checking if NULL.
04:20:46 <pikhq> Yes, from how you've described it that is the case.
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04:46:28 <Sgeo> Tag: The Power of Paint: The power of crashing on what is probably the final level and save games don't exist.
04:52:03 <madbr> why does the genesis store its sprites in a sort of linked list
04:53:53 <Bike> dare i ask how you make a "sort of" linked list
04:55:40 <madbr> it has a list of 64/80/128??? sprites in the VRAM
04:55:50 <madbr> it starts drawing sprite 0
04:56:10 <madbr> then that sprite has a "link" to next sprite to draw in its info
04:56:44 <madbr> traversal of that sprite info proceeds until a sprite links back to sprite 0
04:57:00 <madbr> the link field is 7 bits
04:57:20 <madbr> however there's a maximum of 64 or 80 sprites depending on the video mode
04:57:41 <madbr> (80 sprites in 320x240 mode, 64 sprites in 256x240 mode)
04:57:47 <Bike> what the hecks
05:00:40 <madbr> Sprites are drawn in front to back order so changing how your sprites are linked will change which ones come up on top
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05:06:17 <madbr> I'm starting to think it goes through the whole linked list of sprites on each scanline
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07:44:12 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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07:55:11 <HackEgo> olist 918: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
07:55:34 <oerjan> (repeated for the idlers)
07:55:34 <shachaf> Didn't you already `olist?
07:55:48 <oerjan> but no one seemed to be present.
07:57:16 <oerjan> which sort of made it less satisfying.
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07:59:08 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> since when underload is monoidal? <-- well, it is.
08:00:45 -!- Bike has joined.
08:04:22 <HackEgo> 2013-09-14 04:57:47: <Bike> what the hecks
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08:20:11 <oerjan> @tell olsner <olsner> so what's the origin of @ as a silencing/error-suppressing prefix? <-- i vaguely recall MSDOS batch language had it. @ECHO OFF was the command to silence following commands automatically.
08:21:15 <oerjan> @tell olsner What it silenced (both @ and the ECHO OFF) iirc was the automatical printing of the command run
08:22:30 <oerjan> @tell olsner no idea if MSDOS was first.
09:23:29 <olsner> ooh, @echo off, I remember that
09:24:28 <oerjan> i'm sorry, it is impossible that anyone else in the channel could be old enough. you must be mistaken.
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09:29:32 <oerjan> except that btiggins guy. he's, like, precambrian. from when they called it the precambrian.
09:29:59 <olsner> it's a bit funny how dos seems sooo old, but unix doesn't even though it's actually much older
09:33:30 <oerjan> actually it seems the word precambrian is still used. and windows 8's terminal window still supports @echo off .
09:33:53 <oerjan> it seemed to disable the prompting.
09:34:39 <oerjan> but still, the hadean is the best eon name.
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09:35:25 <olsner> The Precambrian accounts for 88% of geologic time.
09:37:02 <oerjan> yeah but there was no one around who cared
09:39:52 <fizzie> Make is older than MS-DOS. Not that I know how early in the history of Make the @ prefix appeared.
09:47:28 <nooodl> wow this @ prefix discussion was also happening 11 hours ago when i quit
09:47:52 <nooodl> i'm imagining it has been going on all that time, heatedly
09:48:24 <oerjan> nooodl: i'm afraid i just restarted it by logreading
09:49:00 <HackEgo> nooooooooodl is the correct spelling
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09:57:48 <olsner> the very first version of make appears to have @ too
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13:32:07 <fizzie> "You have (1) new google document waiting" "click here" "http://www.banyuak.ac.th/googledoc.php" yeaaah.
13:35:16 <Bike> hm, .ac.th is "academic" but banyuak doesn't seem to be a thing
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14:47:39 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> Do skype,yahoo,other chat and social communication prog (facebook&twitter) spy for Israel & usa ???
14:47:39 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> Do they record and analyse everything we type on the internet???
14:47:39 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> هل تتجسس برامج الشات و التواصل الاجتماعى لاسرائيل و امريكا؟؟؟؟
14:47:39 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> Do skype,yahoo,other chat and social communication prog (facebook&twitter) spy for Israel & usa ???
14:47:39 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> Do they record and analyse everything we type on the internet???
14:47:39 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> هل تتجسس برامج الشات و التواصل الاجتماعى لاسرائيل و امريكا؟؟؟؟
14:47:39 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> Do skype,yahoo,other chat and social communication prog (facebook&twitter) spy for Israel & usa ???
14:47:40 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> Do they record and analyse everything we type on the internet???
14:47:41 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> هل تتجسس برامج الشات و التواصل الاجتماعى لاسرائيل و امريكا؟؟؟؟
14:47:41 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> Do skype,yahoo,other chat and social communication prog (facebook&twitter) spy for Israel & usa ???
14:47:42 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> Do they record and analyse everything we type on the internet???
14:47:42 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> هل تتجسس برامج الشات و التواصل الاجتماعى لاسرائيل و امريكا؟؟؟؟
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14:49:17 <mnoqy> i think i've seen this bot before
14:50:53 <elliott> are the timestamps messed up for anyone else??
14:50:58 <elliott> 15:47:39 <hsdiuf8whfkjahfw> هل تتجسس برامج الشات و التواصل الاجتماعى لاسرائيل و امريكا؟؟؟؟
14:51:09 <elliott> I guess it's putty's fault or something
14:51:10 <copumpkin> elliott: that fucks up a bunch of mac clients
14:51:23 <elliott> oh, is there that unicode stuff in there?
14:51:44 <copumpkin> doesn't seem to affect anyone in here
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15:01:20 <Jafet> @tell hsdiuf8whfkjahfw yes
15:04:57 <Gregor> If your client can't grok right-to-left Unicode, too fucking bad.
15:05:11 <Gregor> None of this "you should avoid it" crap.
15:05:15 <Gregor> You should get a non-shit client.
15:05:47 <elliott> Gregor: there was some OS X/iOS bug where it crashes the client recently.
15:06:00 <elliott> (not a client-specific bug, as far as I understand)
15:06:05 <Gregor> All the more reason to use it.
15:06:33 <elliott> right, well, I got bored of being an asshole to people on the internet for no reason.
15:06:58 <Gregor> s/for no reason/because they use the wrong OS/ :)
15:15:36 <copumpkin> if anything, OSX has the best text rendering and internationalization support of any OS
15:15:41 <copumpkin> it just has a bug, which has now been fixed
15:15:53 <copumpkin> but not everyone has upgraded, and assholes go from channel to channel trying to crash people
15:21:21 <Bike> what's the text say?
15:21:41 <Bike> the arabic i mean.
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16:22:10 <Gregor> copumpkin: Yeah, it definitely is true that OS X has the best text rendering and i18n.
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16:27:57 <FreeFull> Some people say the fully feature-enabled freetype has better text rendering
16:28:19 <FreeFull> I know people complain that fonts look fat on OS X
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17:35:17 <zzo38> Program your client to filter Arabic texts or disable Unicode support, if necessary
17:36:20 <ion> I can’t stand OSX’s blurry style of text rendering. It’s fine when we finally have 300 DPI screens, but you just have to use hinting with 100 DPI screens for it not to be blurry.
17:36:40 <zzo38> Why don't you use screen fonts instead?
17:39:14 <zzo38> I don't use antialiased text on my computer
17:50:03 <ion> Proper subpixel antialiasing makes text rendering *sharper* than what 1-bit bitmaps can achieve on LCDs.
17:50:35 <zzo38> Yes, it can make it sharper
17:52:12 <zzo38> If it is subpixel antialiasing it can make it sharper
17:55:40 <FreeFull> ion: Windows is horribly blurry as well
17:56:01 <FreeFull> ion: I like the way fonts look on Linux
18:00:47 <zzo38> The reason such bugs in Arabic rendering is introduced is because Unicode is stupid
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18:13:05 <Bike> Anyone willing to help me Verilog?
18:13:44 <zzo38> What are you doing with Verilog though?
18:14:44 <Bike> Trying to write a module that converts a 4-bit bus into an 8-bit ssd bus.
18:15:25 <zzo38> I don't know what a ssd bus is.
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18:16:23 <Bike_> seven-segment display. it doesn't really matter, the point is i'm trying to write a map.
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18:16:44 <Bike> But I apparently can't have a case on top level or something? I don't even know.
18:17:00 <zzo38> I don't really know much of Verilog, but I think there is a "primitive" block for defining custom primitive gates?
18:17:21 <zzo38> And then you can call it inside of a module like you can call other modules
18:17:32 <Bike> well, putting an always removed those errors...
18:17:59 <zzo38> But "always" is for defining clock edge events, I think
18:19:15 <Bike> I think having an empty sensitivity block makes it independent of any edge.
18:20:20 <Bike> Maybe it can only drive registers though. I'll see.
18:20:41 <zzo38> I read somewhere about "primitive" block; did you try that?
18:20:52 <ais523> Bike: basically there are two sorts of commands in VHDL/Verilog
18:21:29 <ais523> ones that run continuously (like assign), and ones that only run in processes (like if)
18:21:38 <ais523> an always with no sensitivity is typically a bad thing, it only runs once
18:21:48 <Bike> how should i do this then?
18:21:50 <ais523> ("always" was probably an unfortunate choice of name)
18:22:07 <ais523> you shouldn't be using case, you should be using the appropriate keyword for continuous running
18:22:14 <ais523> in VHDL it's when, but I'm not sure what it is in Verilog
18:22:25 <Bike> i just want this module (trying out modularity here) to output 11000000 given 0000, 11111001 given 0001, that sort of thing
18:22:44 <Bike> it's all constant but not very arithmetic
18:22:46 <zzo38> You could also just define each bit as the logic gates individually I suppose
18:23:01 <Bike> geh, i'd really rather not, but i could.
18:23:11 <ais523> in VHDL that's Q <= '11000000' when A = '0000' else '11111001' when A = '0001' else …
18:23:16 <ais523> with better indentation
18:23:22 <Bike> i guess i can do that for now though :(
18:23:29 <ais523> (that doesn't fit well on IRC)
18:23:39 <ais523> alternatively, you define an array, then index the array
18:23:52 <zzo38> I had different ideas of what I wanted in hardware programming language, so I called it "HWPL"
18:24:05 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know of "primitive" block in Verilog? Would that help?
18:24:06 <Bike> maybe i'll just mail my ta, he knows verilog pretty well
18:25:10 <Bike> i guess i could define a macro that converts the mapping into logic assignments, except the macros suck ass
18:25:42 <ais523> really the clearest way to do it is the array method, I think, but I have no idea what that looks like in Verilog
18:26:00 <ais523> the when/else chain is entirely reasonable and will synthesize correctly, though
18:26:12 <ais523> and the commands almost certainly exist in Verilog, I just don't know what they're called
18:26:33 <ais523> zzo38: I don't see why you wouldn't just use a module
18:26:38 <ais523> are you that annoyed at having to give it a name?
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18:31:12 <Bike> whatever, i guess i'll write something in another language to make verilog code for me. again.
18:51:58 <HackEgo> slist [s]: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
18:55:36 <zzo38> ais523: That isn't what I meant
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19:15:06 <ion> freefull: Yeah, FreeType’s full hinting does the right thing for today’s low-resolution displays. ClearType™ is worse and the rendering in OSX is even worse.
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19:42:48 <monotone> I've always found FreeType's default hinting annoyingly spindly.
19:45:12 <zzo38> I really think better would be to use screen fonts (fix pitch low resolution bitmap fonts); if you require to use same font for screen and print, then you can prerender them into a bitmap font instead, using an external program.
19:50:28 <monotone> The latter's no different from just using a font rendering library...
19:52:34 <zzo38> I still think prerendering them would be better though, so the program can expect use with screen fonts instead, and you can change their prerendering externally too
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19:53:32 <Bike> i am really, really bad at verilog
19:53:56 <zzo38> Bike: I don't think I am that good at it either really
19:54:35 <Sgeo> Bike: you're better at it than me. Because I don't know anything about Verilog.
19:54:55 <Bike> sgeo, why are you saying this thing that you have said
19:55:38 <Bike> "segs0[7] in unit module_test is connected to the following multiple drivers" like, what
19:56:39 <Bike> i just have segs0 being the target of an instantiated module, and that module jjust assigns [7] to 1!
19:57:51 <zzo38> I would do it in "HWPL" by making a "ROM" block, but that is only ideas I write about, not a programming language with existing implementation
19:59:09 <Bike> and my stupid ide does shit like say that the module is empty instead of that it's full of errors
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19:59:41 <Bike> hate this ide and compiler, also
19:59:47 <Bike> whine whine whine
20:00:57 <zzo38> What ide and compiler are you using? Can you use a better one?
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20:03:23 <Bike> it does weird shit like check syntax when i save a file.
20:11:34 <ais523> Bike: "multiple drivers" mean you connected it to two things
20:11:38 -!- s1 has joined.
20:11:39 <ais523> when it's only supposed to be connected to one
20:11:46 <Bike> yeah, i think i figured it out.
20:11:50 <ais523> so the problem isn't with the thing you meant to connect it to
20:11:55 <ais523> it's with the thing you didn't mean to connect it to
20:12:01 <Bike> i had wire [7:0] segs0 = 8'b0; but i didn't need to initialize it. i was thinking of it like a reg.
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20:13:59 <s1> Are you talking about Verilog?
20:14:33 <ais523> constant wires are typically not what you meant to do
20:14:36 <Bike> i think it's working now, in which case i'll have done my first particularly substantial verilog design
20:14:53 <Bike> ais523: yeah, i see that now. i had it as a reg before and tried to have a lower module output to it, which is not how things work
20:15:13 <Bike> speaking too soon, ayep
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20:15:48 <s1> Is Verilog even esoteric?
20:15:57 <s1> Just asking
20:15:57 <Bike> lol it got all the way to bitgen before telling me i forgot to drive an output
20:16:03 <Bike> i don't think it's very esoteric
20:16:15 <Taneb> Dear god someone sent me memoserv mesages
20:17:32 <ais523> Bike: that's because not driving an output is entirely legit
20:17:44 <ais523> most FPGAs are entirely capable of just not connecting the output
20:17:56 <Bike> not mine, apparently?
20:18:17 <ais523> oh in that case that's why it didn't notice until bitgen
20:18:29 <ais523> previous stages didn't know what sort of FPGA you were using
20:21:08 <Bike> holy shit, it's actually working. :D
20:32:56 <Bike> yes, i am awesome. bow before me.
20:37:14 <s1> *bowing down*
20:37:53 <Bike> (i wrote a thing that displays the value input on the switches as hex on the display)
20:38:49 <Bike> the sky is the limit for me, clearly.
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20:40:28 <s1> Anyone programming False here?
20:42:19 <s1> ok... Brainfuck then? -_-
20:42:28 <ais523> s1: I haven't programmed either for a while
20:42:35 <ais523> apart from some quick BF in response to a question earlier
20:42:41 <HackEgo> s1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:42:41 <ais523> I don't think I've programmed False ever, actually
20:42:53 <ais523> but yeah, I'm disappointed at the lack of esodiscussion here
20:42:59 <Bike> we're off topic a lot of the time, just so you know, not that we don't still talk about esolangs sometimes. i'm sure ais can- yep there we go
20:43:18 <ais523> Bike: I left the channel because of the lack of offtopic discussion
20:44:03 <s1> well I hope it isn't regarded with dislike if I share some BF.
20:44:17 <ais523> nah, nobody can reasonably dislike that (unless it's really bad BF)
20:44:23 <ais523> what they'll mostly do is just ignore it :(
20:44:28 <ais523> rather than talk about it like good little #esoteric denziens
20:44:34 <ais523> I'll look at it, though
20:44:44 <ais523> sadly, BF is easier to write than to read
20:45:40 <s1> Programmed Wolframs universe yesterday. (It's called that, right?) Anyone interested?
20:45:56 <ais523> not sure what you mean by that
20:46:14 <mnoqy> the "rule [number]" CA things?
20:47:07 <ais523> turing machines are a better fit for BF than cellular automata
20:47:19 <ais523> now I'm wondering how easy the 2,3 thing would be to make in BF
20:49:19 <s1> Not really rule [number]
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20:50:02 <s1> sry, didn't find english version: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/EIDU-9_Wolframs_1-dimensionales_Universum.jpg
20:50:24 <ais523> that's a cellular automaton
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20:52:06 <s1> it is. But no rule whatever thing. Interested in BF code?
20:53:05 <ais523> it's worth posting, I think
20:53:12 <ais523> even though probably nobody would read it
20:53:19 <ais523> might be worth linking it from the wiki, then probably someone would read it
20:53:27 <ais523> maybe not immediately, but a few months from now
20:55:13 <s1> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11001067/Wolframuniversum.b
20:55:29 <s1> Changed the comments to english in last minute, hope grammar is good ;)
20:56:36 <ais523> wow, that's really readable for BF
20:57:23 <s1> aww what a compliment thx ^^
20:58:30 <ais523> that's a pretty nice and simple way to do an if statement
20:58:42 <ais523> actually I think I could probably improve my a>b again based on it
20:58:59 <s1> one moment i have a BF file
20:59:42 <s1> for A<B A=B and A>B
21:00:09 <s1> but the runtime is bad. I wanted to use as few cells as possible
21:01:15 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++<[->>+<[->[-]>+<<]>[->>+<<]>[-<<+>>]<<]>>>++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
21:01:23 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->>+<[->[-]>+<<]>[->>+<<]>[-<<+>>]<<]>>>++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
21:01:28 <ais523> yeah, screwed it up as usual
21:01:33 <ais523> I never get it right the first time :(
21:02:20 <ais523> oh, same mistake as last time, too :)
21:02:30 <s1> what are you talking about?
21:02:31 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->>+<[->[-]>+<<]>[->>+<<]>[-<<+>>]<-<]>>>++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
21:03:27 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->>+<[->[-]>+<<]>[->>+<<]>[-<<+>>]<<-<]>>>++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
21:03:34 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++<[->>+<[->[-]>+<<]>[->>+<<]>[-<<+>>]<<-<]>>>++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
21:03:40 <ais523> !bf ++++>++++<[->>+<[->[-]>+<<]>[->>+<<]>[-<<+>>]<<-<]>>>++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
21:03:47 <ais523> !bf ++++++++++>++++++<[->>+<[->[-]>+<<]>[->>+<<]>[-<<+>>]<<-<]>>>++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
21:04:04 <ais523> not sure if that's simpler than my last one or not
21:04:33 <ais523> for the record, [->>+<[->[-]>+<<]>[->>+<<]>[-<<+>>]<<-<] is the less than
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21:06:58 <s1> ok, I suggest that I try to understand your code, while you look at mine.
21:07:00 <s1> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11001067/COMP%20kleiner%20gr%C3%B6%C3%9Fer%20gleich.b
21:08:14 <s1> I assume your last code was the most up to date.
21:09:07 <ais523> they're just different tests of the same program
21:09:09 <ais523> I'm putting it on the wiki ow
21:10:17 <s1> And yes, my code only uses THREE cells to calculate A<B, A=B and A>B. But as I said, the runtime is horrific.
21:15:04 <ais523> here we go, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#z_.3D_x_.E2.89.A5_y
21:15:07 <ais523> maybe that explanation is clearer
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21:15:48 <Bike> probably ought to fix that typo
21:16:08 <Bike> 'lopo' for 'loop'
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21:30:54 <Sgeo> What is this magic that google.com is doing on Google Chrome where the search field is the address bar and there's no search field on the page?
21:32:36 <ais523> trying to teach people to not have to go to Google to search, I guess
21:32:44 <Bike> magic i'm not seeing
21:32:49 <kmc> vertical integration is the best isn't it
21:36:51 <Roujo> Yeah, I was confused when it happened at first =P
21:38:00 <Sgeo> Only seems to happen when searching from address bar for me
21:38:03 <kmc> do you have to be using Google™ brand Google Chrome™?
21:38:37 <Sgeo> Don't know, but that's what I'm using
21:39:23 <elliott> I predict you have something turned on in chrome://flags.
21:39:28 <elliott> or are using a non-stable version
21:39:48 <Sgeo> https://www.google.com/search?q=Test&oq=test&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i60l2j0l3.1442j0&sourceid=chrome&espv=2&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
21:39:51 <kmc> btw it's extremely confusing that Firefox has a thing called "chrome" (and even a chrome:// protocol, I think) that has nothing to do with (and predates) Google Chrome
21:40:02 <Sgeo> The espv=2 seems to be important to triggering it
21:40:04 <elliott> in particular, "Enable Instant Extended API"
21:40:28 <elliott> that URL briefly shows without the search field for me and then it appears when it fully loads
21:40:54 <Sgeo> elliott: I have that option, it's set to default, but now at least I know what it's called
21:41:03 <Sgeo> And that does sound like an apt description
21:41:43 <Sgeo> Is this some publically described API? I .. hope so, but
21:42:38 <Sgeo> Could be that it's not-existant on the Linux version
21:43:54 <Sgeo> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Google-Search-Experiment-Removes-the-Search-Box-in-Chrome-Screenshots-332953.shtml
21:44:45 <elliott> well, the alternative is OS X.
21:44:47 <Sgeo> "The company has said that it will open up the APIs to other search providers though."
21:45:01 <Sgeo> Is this the new browser wars?
21:45:14 <Sgeo> Unstandard APIs that are only supported by one browser at first?
21:45:33 <elliott> ok, I'm sorry, have you done any web dev in the past like decade
21:45:54 <ais523> elliott: no need to put a time limit qualifier on it at all, really
21:46:18 <Sgeo> But to continue doing it, even knowing how much pain it's caused
21:46:42 <elliott> have you heard of capitalism.
21:49:46 <Sgeo> Is the API documented anywhere? :/
21:50:11 <kmc> web dev is way nicer now than a decade ago
21:50:22 <kmc> also you were like 8 years old a decade ago
21:50:33 <elliott> I was 8 years old and doing web dev actually
21:50:41 <kmc> but yes there is a new browser war of the same sort as the old one with IE
21:50:55 <kmc> the intro to The Tangled Web says as much
21:51:02 <ais523> kmc: Firefox and Chrome are competing to see who can screw up faster?
21:51:17 <elliott> it's just nonsense to suggest browsers ever stopped implementing stuff on their own without asking, except insofar as they stopped implementing stuff at all.
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21:51:55 <kmc> that's right
21:55:56 <Sgeo> I want a Best Viewed With ViolaWWW button
21:56:32 <Bike> god, the ide doesn't even do Home right. this is ridiculous
21:58:26 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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22:11:30 <s1> Did the conversation come back to brainfuck again after I left?
22:12:32 <Bike> logs in the topic (i say this because i forget)
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22:43:55 <FreeFull> "On a distant planet called Dakkam, a scientist named Hektu comes to believe that the sun going nova would destroy his world. In a last effort to save his family, he and his wife, Soja, have an infant son named Wundarr, whom they plan to save from their world's destruction. They place him aboard a ship that is able to maintain his life support as long as necessary, and then launch him into outer space. Hektu and Soja later make flight and are
22:44:02 <FreeFull> captured and executed by the Internal Security Force to prevent them from alarming the populace. It is later found out that Hektu's apocalyptic prediction is incorrect, and that he sent his son away for nothing."
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23:16:15 <iconmaster> I still love the fact that in Perl you could change a variable to change what arrays started at
23:16:17 <iconmaster> no matter how bad it turned out in practice
23:16:44 <zzo38> QBASIC can also change what array start at by the OPTION BASE command, but only 0 or 1
23:17:02 <zzo38> You can define individual arrays to start at whatever you want, though, and that can be useful
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23:21:32 <iconmaster> I can only assume many programs were sabotoged by setting $[ to things like 43979
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00:32:07 <FreeFull> iconmaster: In Pascal you choose what an array starts at for every array you make
00:32:42 <FreeFull> So you can have one array whose indexes go from 3 to 6, and another one whose indexes go from 'c' to 'A'
00:32:59 <FreeFull> Actually, make that 'A' to 'c'
00:33:04 <iconmaster> Indexes that start at strings? That's wonderful
00:33:31 <iconmaster> I bet the're just char bytes in disguise, though
00:33:59 <FreeFull> iconmaster: In Pascal it's hard to tell a Char and a single-character String apart
00:34:40 <FreeFull> Although they have different types and behaviour, the syntax for making one is the same
00:35:19 <FreeFull> I don't think arrays can be indexed by strings though, AFAIK they can only be indexed by enums
00:35:53 <FreeFull> I haven't written any Pascal in a while
00:36:48 <fizzie> int array_[16], *array = array_-1; /* "good" old (undefined) C trick for 1-based arrays */
00:38:01 <iconmaster> The insane things we'll do for arrays of the other style
00:38:13 <FreeFull> I don't think that is actually undefined
00:39:23 <FreeFull> Accessing array[0] would be, but array[1] to array[16] should be defined
00:39:24 <pikhq> One may only have a pointer be equal to NULL, somewhere within an object, or one past the end of that object. And only one of those is a derefereceable pointer.
00:39:40 <fizzie> FreeFull: "Wwhen an expression that has integer type is -- subtracted from a pointer, -- [things what happen when it points inside the object]; otherwise, the behavior is undefined."
00:39:41 <pikhq> (why one past the end, I know not)
00:44:48 <fizzie> pikhq: "An important endorsement of widespread practice is the requirement that a pointer can always be incremented to /just past/ the end of an array, with no fear of overflow or wraparound: SOMETYPE array[SPAN]; // ... for (p = &array[0]; p < &array[SPAN]; p++) This stipulation merely requires that every object be followed by one byte whose address is representable. -- In the case of p-1, on the other hand, an entire object /would/ have to be alloca
00:45:16 <fizzie> ... /would/ have to be allocated prior to the array of objects that p traverses, so decrement loops that run off the bottom of an array can fail. This restriction allows segmented architectures, for example, to place objects at the start of a range of addressable memory." (C99 rationale)
00:45:27 <fizzie> (Seems that I don't have splitlong.pl in autoloads.)
00:47:29 <fizzie> ("Widespread practice" is the reason for many things in the rationale.)
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01:30:34 <pikhq> True, C *is* speced so as to be at least compatible with nearly everything that compiled C at some point.
01:30:50 <pikhq> Thus why EBCDIC C exists.
01:31:56 <kmc> I was wondering the other day which extant platforms (if any) don't have twos-complement signed integer overflow
01:32:07 <kmc> I don't know of any general purpose CPUs in this category
01:32:14 <pikhq> That's actually a good question.
01:32:22 <kmc> but DSPs often do saturating arithmetic, I think
01:32:34 <kmc> (also some general purpose CPUs have instructions for saturating arithmetic, as well)
01:32:56 <kmc> I assume people program DSPs in C because people program everything in C, but do they have saturating semantics for regular ints and such?
01:33:34 <pikhq> I want to say no, but I suspect yes.
01:34:00 <kmc> the heart says no but the mind says yes
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04:33:34 <HackEgo> bash: tclsh: command not found
04:36:25 <Jafet> Heh, /usr/bin/primes has a bug.
04:36:41 <Jafet> Oh wait, it's /usr/games/primes. I should have known.
04:36:52 <zzo38> What bug does it have?
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04:36:59 <Bike> more like /usr/lames/primes
04:37:13 <Jafet> It prints 10000000079.
04:37:49 <Jafet> > 10000000079 `quotRem` 75329
04:38:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: primes: not found
04:44:45 <Sgeo> "Educated persons who read Ken Thompson’s “Reflections on Trusting Trust” throw up their hands in stoic resignation, as if they were confronted with some grim and immutable law of nature. But where is the law of physics which tells us that any computation must be broken up into millions of human-unintelligible instructions before a machine can execute it?"
04:45:03 <Sgeo> Ok, fine, get rid of the compiler--- you still need to trust the silicon at some point
04:45:31 <Bike> the law of physics was under the couch the whole time
04:46:12 <Bike> `karma compiler-
04:46:17 <Bike> @karma compiler-
04:46:42 <Bike> your commitment to the karma system is admirable, shachaf, to someone, i'm sure
04:46:59 <shachaf> self-admiration is good enough for me
04:47:59 <ion> @karma blah
04:56:13 <Jafet> Ok, it prints numbers whose second smallest positive factor is at least 65539.
04:56:22 <Jafet> Perhaps that was prime enough for bsd.
04:57:34 <Bike> that's prime enough for me most of the time, honestly
04:58:37 <Jafet> This may also explain why it is much faster than my version of primes.
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05:57:19 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/pDxdwpb.jpg
06:18:05 <Sgeo> If a pizza place gives me a slice of pizza on the house, is that likely to be just a thing they do for regular customers or might they be assuming stuff about my financial status?
06:18:33 <Bike> you got some kinda problem with hobos, motherfucker
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06:29:05 <zzo38> Why does Wikipedia always try to enter secure mode?
06:29:58 <zzo38> According to Wikipedia: The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience states that some principles of feng shui are "quite rational", while noting that "folk remedies and superstitions... [have been] incorporated into feng shui's eclectic mix".
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09:29:12 <oerjan> @tell s1 <s1> it is. But no rule whatever thing. Interested in BF code? <-- it's code 20 in wolfram's number scheme for _totalistic_ 1d automata (2 colors, size 5 neighborhood).
09:29:32 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <s1> it is. But no rule whatever thing. Interested in BF code? <-- it's code 20 in wolfram's number scheme for _totalistic_ 1d automata (2 colors, size 5 neighborhood).
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11:31:49 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:35:29 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
11:35:37 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
11:35:55 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
11:35:55 <lambdabot> Expected type: f0 (a0 -> b0) -> f0 a0
11:36:00 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
11:36:39 <FreeFull> That didn't do what I thought it would do
11:36:53 <oerjan> what did you think it would do
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11:37:35 <oerjan> the ap is probably in the -> Monad, unlike the rest
11:37:57 <FreeFull> Yeah, I did expect ap to be in Reader
11:38:11 <oerjan> ap = (<*>) for any sensible Monad/Applicative type
11:38:21 <FreeFull> I'm trying to get something that matches (??) type signature pointfree
11:38:44 <oerjan> well you should note that it only uses Functor.
11:39:42 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
11:39:44 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:40:10 <oerjan> @pl seems still broken.
11:40:47 <oerjan> :t flip $ \b -> fmap ($b)
11:40:48 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:41:09 <oerjan> :t flip (fmap . flip id)
11:41:09 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:41:28 <oerjan> i'm spoiling again, ain't i
11:41:53 <FreeFull> I don't think you can actually simplify flip id away
11:42:10 <oerjan> indeed, that's pretty simple
11:43:32 <oerjan> :t (??) (fmap . (??) id)
11:43:33 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:44:12 <FreeFull> Using ?? to define ?? probably wouldn't work well
11:49:05 <Taneb> @type let (???) = (???) (fmap . (???) id) in (???)
11:49:06 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b0 = f0 b0
11:49:06 <lambdabot> Expected type: ((f0 (f0 b0) -> f0 b0) -> f0 (f0 b0) -> f0 b0)
11:49:06 <lambdabot> -> (f0 (f0 b0) -> f0 b0) -> f0 b0 -> b0
11:49:33 <oerjan> Taneb: i think that's polymorphic recursion
11:50:23 <Taneb> @type let (???) = (???) (fmap . (???) id); (???) :: Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b in (???)
11:50:24 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:50:45 <Taneb> > let (???) = (???) (fmap . (???) id); (???) :: Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b in (???) div 2 4
11:51:24 <oerjan> :t let f1 = (??); f2 = (??); f3 = f1 (fmap . f2 id) in (f1, f2, f3)
11:51:25 <lambdabot> Functor f => ((a -> a1 -> b1) -> a1 -> a -> b1, ((a -> b) -> a2 -> b2) -> a2 -> (a -> b) -> b2, f (a -> b) -> a -> f b)
11:52:38 <oerjan> :t \f1 f2 -> f1 (fmap . f2 id)
11:52:38 <lambdabot> Functor f => ((a -> f a1 -> f b) -> t) -> ((a2 -> a2) -> a -> a1 -> b) -> t
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12:45:22 <Taneb> I have came to the conclusion I am not very good at the Hello World quiz
12:45:53 <Taneb> Oh, that's not fair...
13:02:00 <Taneb> http://helloworldquiz.com/
13:02:23 <HackEgo> 820) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
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13:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> whether or not something works in wine is entirely nondeterministic
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13:51:56 <Jafet> I should replace gnome with wine, then.
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14:43:11 <fizzie> I can't seem figure out how to type ς̂ into LibreOffice.
14:43:17 <fizzie> Copy-pasting it in drops the hat.
14:44:43 <fizzie> Well, not exactly "drops", since it is still there (backspacing over it takes an extra step), but it's not visible.
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17:57:01 <FreeFull> I wonder if any humans ever used merge sort when manually sorting some things
17:58:09 <Jafet> No, but there are many computer science freshmen
18:00:59 <FreeFull> If you are given a deck of cards and asked to sort it, maybe using merge sort wouldn't be a bad idea
18:01:29 <FreeFull> Rather than category sort or whatever the standard human sort is
18:01:34 <kmc> mostly when sorting things (in a computer or in person) you have more information than just pairwise less-than
18:01:38 <kmc> and you can use that to be faster
18:02:34 <Jafet> Surely you would sort a deck of cards using the patience game
18:02:44 <FreeFull> Sorting a deck of cards is probably O(n)
18:02:44 <Fiora> I think I end up using selection sort when I sort?
18:02:49 <Fiora> I thought I remember hearing that was what humans usually use
18:03:00 <Fiora> because, like, in a hand of cards, moving a card is a lot harder than finding the minimum
18:03:07 <Fiora> since you can do the latter with your eyes, right?
18:03:13 <Fiora> so if findmin() is super fast but moving is slow, selection is good
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18:03:42 <elliott> what's the sorting algorithm called where you just give up and let it be messy >_>
18:03:47 <FreeFull> Fiora: I tend to put the current card into the corresponding pile and then just merge all the piles at the end
18:03:49 <Fiora> 52 card pickup? XD
18:04:41 <Jafet> The pseudo-sorting algorithm that works best is the one where you riffle the deck ten times to try and make the next game more random
18:05:11 <kmc> Jafet: ooh patience sort
18:05:19 <kmc> you can use that to implement a diff algorithm
18:05:42 <Jafet> But I've never needed to diff two decks of cards...
18:05:44 <FreeFull> Shuffling works best when you have a reliable source of randomness
18:05:54 <kmc> http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/73318.html
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18:16:52 <oerjan> <Taneb> I have came to the conclusion I am not very good at the Hello World quiz <-- *MWAHAHAHA*
18:17:04 * oerjan needs to gloat about the few things he can.
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18:21:52 <oerjan> <FreeFull> If you are given a deck of cards and asked to sort it, maybe using merge sort wouldn't be a bad idea <-- i think for a deck of cards the obvious manual algorithm is to designate a spot on the table for each card and put it directly there.
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18:27:00 <Jafet> Just scan through the deck and convert it to a permutation index in your head
18:28:32 <Taneb> oerjan, sorting algorithms can be much improved if you know in advance exactly which values you are sorting
18:29:14 <Taneb> Like, O(this isn't even really an algorithm)
18:29:45 <Taneb> Well, the way you described is probably O(n)
18:29:45 <Jafet> Throw away the useless unsorted deck and snort out a sorted one from your nose
18:41:29 <zzo38> What would be a Haskell class having (w x -> m x), (w x -> w (w x)), (w (x -> m y) -> w x -> w y)?
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18:52:43 <kmc> http://aem1k.com/world/
18:53:21 <FreeFull> oerjan: Yeah, spot sort would be the fastest
18:56:00 <kmc> killall killall& killall killall& killall killall& killall killall& killall killall& killall killall& killall killall&
18:57:13 <Gracenotes> hm, why is it that every so often I search for "CHROMEBOOK TURN OFF CAPS LOCK"
18:57:13 <shachaf> you know the thing where you're using a solaris computer and you type killall out of habit
18:57:47 <ais523> and I learnt UNIX on SunOS
18:58:03 <ais523> with a version of Mozilla so old that it blanked Wikipedia's Talk:Main Page once
18:58:20 <olsner> shachaf: I know about the thing, but no-one I know has actually done that afaik
18:58:45 <ais523> I actually use to have perms to edit Wikipedia's Main Page
18:58:49 <ais523> but never found a reason to do so
18:59:12 <ais523> (although I did start a large campaign to rename it that ultimately ended in failure)
18:59:17 <Gracenotes> everyone is like "let's use templates" and also "let's use bots"
18:59:51 <ais523> the templates were a good idea
19:00:03 <ais523> the bots are at least a reasonable idea, although I can see some downsides
19:00:04 <FreeFull> shachaf: I never use killall, I use pkill instead
19:00:20 <Gracenotes> I'm so used to using pkill, sometimes I use pkill on process numbers
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19:05:36 <kmc> Whose might is riptide and undertow / There's no escaping from Ohio
19:10:08 <elliott> oregon is bad / stop it if you can
19:10:49 <Bike> where's the rhyme
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19:40:43 <zzo38> I have thought about Newcomb's and I see that statistically speaking, if they know 99% accurately which one you picked, you can calculate the expected value is better with one box. However, statistically speaking is not the only way to speak!
19:43:24 <Sgeo> Is there any reason that storebought mac and cheese would be any less healthy than making pasta and cheese myself?
19:44:22 <zzo38> Sgeo: Perhaps depending how it is make?
19:47:59 <quintopia> Sgeo: well, i suspect that in some sense the storebought will be healthier
19:48:15 <quintopia> they invent special fake cheese with more vitamins
19:48:24 <quintopia> but the homemade will probably taste better
19:48:46 <Sgeo> I think the storebought tastes better
19:49:04 <Sgeo> And also, there's the factor of how much time it takes to make...
19:51:14 <Gracenotes> store mac+cheese is not guaranteed to come from a cow at any point
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19:51:25 <Gracenotes> if that's the kind of property you want
19:51:45 <Gracenotes> the reason why storebought takes better is because they add a bunch of microscopic things your tastebuds like.
19:52:20 <Sgeo> The properties I want: Not going to kill me if I eat it every night for dinner, and fast to make. And not too expensive, but if mac and cheese violates the first property, I'm open to more expensive stuff
19:53:08 <Gracenotes> and stuff to improve creaminess, even when it gets cold, and just the right amount of congealing.
19:57:04 <quintopia> i would not recommend eating kraft dinner for every dinner
19:57:42 <Sgeo> quintopia: why not?
19:58:28 <quintopia> it's far from a balanced diet. it's missing a lot of essential shit. it's really not much more than carbs and sodium, and a little fat too if you use whole milk
19:59:35 <Sgeo> Is pasta and real cheese any better?
19:59:47 <Sgeo> Is (real) pizza any better?
20:00:11 <olsner> pizza usually has tomatoes, which should at least make scurvy less likely
20:01:01 <Sgeo> Also, I do eat lunch, consisting of usually a hamburger (could be chicken too)
20:01:31 <oerjan> quite possibly "eat the same thing every night for dinner" is incompatible with "balanced diet".
20:01:47 <copumpkin> what if you eat a magic concoction of every possible good thing
20:01:52 <elliott> Sgeo: can I convince you to see an actual nutritionist? like, it'll be slightly better than #esoteric at the very least.
20:02:38 <Sgeo> elliott: I spoke to a nutritionist once, I should do that again
20:03:22 <oerjan> copumpkin: istr there is a couple of healthy foodstuffs, one of which neutralizes the health benefit of the other if you eat/drink them simultaneously. i don't quite remember what they were, though.
20:04:00 <oerjan> or well, some mineral or something which cannot be absorbed if you have the other thing simultaneously.
20:09:24 <oerjan> i have vague bells on either calcium, iron or c-vitamins as one of them.
20:09:41 <oerjan> (the one that cannot be absorbed)
20:10:44 <oerjan> oh it was coffee and calcium
20:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember from when we were mocking that soylent idiot
20:11:41 <oerjan> well i find google hits on coffee and calcium. but there might be other incompatible things, of course.
20:12:26 <ais523> <quintopia> ais523: rename it to what? ← Portal:Main
20:12:34 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that iron and calcium soylent thing too, though.
20:12:54 <ais523> quintopia: well it's the correct namespace
20:13:05 <ais523> [[Main Page]] should be an encyclopedia article
20:13:14 <oerjan> quintopia: he is now waiting for someone to make up something called "Main Page", so they _have_ to move it.
20:13:16 <quintopia> correct and user-friendly are frequently at odds
20:13:45 <oerjan> or else get an ugly disambiguation notice in the main page
20:14:01 <quintopia> I'm going to name my daughter Main Page and hope she gets famous
20:14:09 <olsner> perhaps Main Page is just another name for brainfuck
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20:17:14 <oerjan> quintopia: is Page your real surname
20:17:32 <oerjan> that would make things easier.
20:17:56 <quintopia> Page sounds like Paige, which is a reasonable girl's name
20:18:27 <quintopia> but i'm afraid Jimmy Page didn't have any kids named Main, so 'oh well' on that front
20:20:30 <olsner> I wonder if there's a Jimmy somewhere authoring Jimmy's Jimmy Page Page
20:20:37 <quintopia> we could start a band called Main Page
20:20:38 <ais523> quintopia: well things being in the wrong namespace mean that you need exceptions all over the place
20:21:56 <quintopia> doesn't having a 'Portal:' namespace create potential conflicts with 3D platforming puzzle games?
20:23:54 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ø_(Disambiguation)
20:24:39 <ais523> quintopia: yeah, there are namespace / pagetitle clashes on occasion
20:24:48 <ais523> the most infamous was [[:coolCat]]
20:25:05 <ais523> which broke the database in random ways for months
20:25:33 <ais523> eventually I think they had to modify the database manually to get rid of it
20:32:50 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Portal
20:35:10 <kmc> quintopia: I don't think there's a user-friendliness issue here; who manually types /Main_Page into their browser?
20:35:37 <kmc> people just get there from http://en.wikipedia.org or more likely from Googling something and later clicking the globe logo
20:36:38 <elliott> people have bookmarks, [[Main Page]] will never point anywhere else
20:36:47 <kmc> fuck them and their bookmarks
20:36:58 <ais523> kmc: the problem is existing links
20:36:59 <kmc> but you could at least have it be a redirect to Portal:Main
20:37:01 <ais523> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=%s
20:37:17 <ais523> in particular, read the talk page
20:37:20 <ais523> kmc: that's what I was suggesting
20:37:40 <elliott> ais523: why does it link to a page that redirects to the Main Page at the top rather than the actual main page...?
20:37:43 <elliott> why am I trying to understand Wikipedia??
20:37:50 <kmc> whykipedia
20:38:17 <ais523> elliott: because [[Main Page]] is in the wrong namespace for a Wikipedia-internal-specific disambiguation hatnote
20:38:22 <elliott> anyway, if you bookmark Wikipedia then you'll end up with it linking to /wiki/Main_Page in like 99.999% of cases
20:38:23 <ais523> and the bots would thus get confused
20:38:33 <elliott> so that's a lot worse than breaking the search shortcut thing
20:39:58 <ais523> anyway, I think you're inadvertently arguing for moving the Main Page, there :)
20:41:03 <ais523> oh, I also wanted to rename the Main Page to the null string, but apparently the developers were unwilling to make that possible
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23:08:31 <zzo38> My computer was off, sorry
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23:25:36 <ion> You are forgiven.
23:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, thank god you're back, there was a major crisis brewing
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23:32:46 <zzo38> Do you know of any compiler MML -> .MOD?
23:34:22 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What kind of crisis is that?
23:40:51 <kmc> crisis on infinite earths
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00:51:35 <zzo38> My character may join "Aberration Saver". What would you think of such thing like that?
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01:16:36 <zzo38> I don't know if it can be explained so easily, sorry
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01:17:17 <zzo38> But I can try to explain it a little big
01:17:39 <kmc> it's hard to know what we think of such thing like that if we don't know which thing it is
01:17:56 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I know, but I thought you might know
01:18:04 <zzo38> I can try to explain in a minute
01:18:23 <zzo38> It is related to the god Gxxyuxihuvxi
01:18:40 <Bike> this is a good explanation.
01:18:58 <zzo38> It is the patron deity of my character
01:19:11 <kmc> the patron deity of consonants
01:19:48 <zzo38> It is the society to save such creatures, which can be against opposing society but they don't necessarily have some patron deity
01:21:38 <zzo38> It is difficult to pronounce so sometimes they call "The god who shall not be named because is difficult to pronounce".
01:23:25 <kmc> "It has a very high vapor pressure, for a metal"
01:25:36 <zzo38> If you watch how I play the Dungeons&Dragons game then maybe you can know kind of what kind of things I mean.
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01:28:36 <zzo38> They are the god of good aligned aberration type creatures. Their holy and ritual and temple and so on are often considered confusing by others, however.
01:29:33 <zzo38> Sometimes even wrong, but, you have to think about it for yourself too, and see if it is sensible!
01:29:47 <zzo38> Even if it is simultaneously sane and insane, is also OK too.
01:30:06 <zzo38> Now do you like this?
01:30:16 <zzo38> kmc: What kind of metal do you mean?
01:52:53 <zzo38> O, that's what it is.
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02:06:14 <zzo38> Have I explained enough now?
02:13:02 <zzo38> Would you have something to say about it then?
02:13:51 <quintopia> i don't know enough about your play style
02:15:52 <zzo38> You could read the recording of the game, and/or to ask question, answer, complaint, comment, confusing, and thinking.
02:17:31 <zzo38> I would say, I often do unusual kind of things, I suppose.
02:18:34 <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell.
02:19:53 <kmc> how will you attack the darkness
02:20:47 <Bike> i can respect that answer
02:21:14 <zzo38> My character can see in dark anyways (usually; sometimes there is magical darkness that you can't see, but I have ways to get around that too and it depend on circumstances)
02:21:53 <zzo38> Although often the things I do are not spell casting anyways
02:23:15 <zzo38> A lot of things rather have to do with items, such as cat fur, rusty nails, bone, stone, lock picks, astrolabe, rope, IOU, and so on.
02:23:35 <zzo38> The DM thought the astrolabe would be completely useless, but, I used it.
02:23:55 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell. <kmc> how will you attack the darkness <zzo38> By surprise!
02:23:59 <zzo38> My character sheet is available on the computer though
02:23:59 <HackEgo> 1105) <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell. <kmc> how will you attack the darkness <zzo38> By surprise!
02:24:28 <zzo38> I usually don't need to attack the darkness though
02:26:52 <zzo38> It is usually bright areas that we attack
02:27:09 <zzo38> Simply because the opponent would not attack if they cannot see!
02:27:19 <kmc> zzo38: can you pick locks in real life or only in the dungeons & dragons game
02:27:27 <kmc> zzo38: maybe the opponent has magical sight
02:27:57 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, if they do have magical sight, or just if they can naturally see in dark, then they can, but my character can see in dark too
02:28:06 <zzo38> But is not very good at combat
02:28:54 <zzo38> I have managed to escape far more severe situations than that
02:29:34 <quintopia> have you? or was it your character?
02:30:21 <quintopia> if you've been mugged by a crack addict with a pistol in the middle of the night, i'll concede you've survived grue-level challenges
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02:36:03 <Sgeo> Apparently, 1 bowl of mac and cheese is not a sufficient dinner
02:36:38 <Sgeo> According to my still hungry stomach
02:44:01 <quintopia> you need a box of velveeta shells and cheese with broccoli
02:44:40 <Sgeo> I wonder if Stop&Shop would sell meat thermometers
02:45:00 <Sgeo> So I could feel comfortable buying ... oh I don't know if fridge/freezer actually work
02:45:24 <quintopia> are you still in farmingdale or whatever
02:46:51 <zzo38> No, you have to read the recording to learn!
02:47:50 <quintopia> the recording wouldn't tell me whether you've been mugged by a canadian crack addict
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03:00:00 <Sgeo> quintopia: yes
03:00:06 <Sgeo> Not in college anymoe
03:21:11 <zzo38> I have not been mugged by a Canadian crack addict and neither have my characters.
03:21:48 <zzo38> My playing style has sometimes been compared with Batman.
03:23:31 <zzo38> In the game, once my character was being captured, and I decided not to resist being captured; after all they were taking me to the place I was intending to go anyways. Sometimes deceptive tactics can help.
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03:24:10 <zzo38> My tactics are rarely fighting.
03:28:01 <zzo38> They are more likely confusions, deceptions, preparation, defense, outsmarting opponent, and mainly thinking ahead a lot and using what we happen to have in the given situation.
03:28:19 <zzo38> For example, using the phase of the moon to your advantage, or the day of the week.
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04:29:14 <zzo38> There are many reasons to avoid the use of magic in many situations, and this is what is done. It can include to save the magic for later, or to do other things that work even in anti magic field, to not allow others to identify the spell, and because magical things can go wrong and/or have less likely chances to work.
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04:29:38 <zzo38> However, when magic is used, you have to do things such as taking advantage of the exact duration of the spell, and other side-effects.
04:33:07 <zzo38> Often, mundane things will do.
04:43:14 <zzo38> Such as, like I mentioned, phase of the moon, day of the week, astrolabe, slant of the floor, the arrangement of things in a room or of hallways and rooms in a building, mundane deception or lack of it, Sicilian reasoning, the style of writing of a book, the size and type of paper used to write a message, the current season, time of day, sunrise and sunset times, and a whole bunch of other things like that.
04:43:33 <zzo38> This is how you should learn to play the Dungeons&Dragons game!
04:44:54 <zzo38> Can you play the game like this?
05:00:50 <zzo38> It isn't like chess, where you have to act every turn; you are allowed to pass your turn, and it is often useful to do so.
05:04:07 <zzo38> You can save someone by retreating instead.
05:06:25 <zzo38> In the manga "Kaiji", Kaiji manages to beat a pachinko game partially by the floor being slanted because of someone doing construction nearby.
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07:44:45 <Taneb> I woke up this morning in a mathsy mood
07:45:00 <Taneb> Finally worked out /why/ you can get the Fibonacci series from Pascal's triangle
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07:56:29 <Taneb> Which gives me a weird idea for a Fibonacci sequence program
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08:15:48 <fizzie> "Special course in Language Technology: Language, Motion and Emotion" ... "The course is multi- and interdisciplinary --"
09:03:52 <fizzie> "NOTE! currently system is at most 8*65536 bytes long. This should be no problem, even in the future. I want to keep it simple. This 512 kB kernel size should be enough --" (linux-0.01 bootloader comment) 2.4M /boot/vmlinuz-3.10-2-amd64 (Debian testing) A bit of a discrepancy there.
09:13:12 <olsner> and those 2.4MB is the compressed size! (maybe the 512kB were too?)
09:14:26 <fizzie> I don't think the 0.01 code does decompression.
09:15:14 <fizzie> Something else I learned: the current boot sector header of the (x86) kernel just prints "Direct floppy boot is not supported. Use a boot loader program instead." and reboots: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/x86/boot/header.S
09:15:31 <fizzie> I was sort of assuming there still was a vestigial boot loader there.
09:21:11 <olsner> I wonder if they tried removing it completely first but then got tons of bug reports about corrupt kernels not being bootable
09:25:59 <fizzie> It said "Direct booting from floppy is no longer supported. Please use a boot loader program instead." -- a slightly different wording -- in bugger_off_msg in Jun 20, 2012.
09:29:36 <fizzie> Huh, it didn't support floppy boot in 2009 when zImage support (in addition to bzImage -- which is still gzip, I understand it's a common misconception to think it's bzip2) was dropped.
09:29:48 <fizzie> And in fact it did not support floppy boot in 2007 either.
09:30:17 <fizzie> Nor in 2005, which is as far back as github's history view of bootsect.S goes.
09:32:23 <fizzie> (Back to 2.6.12, which seems to be the first Git-managed kernel. Well, maybe LXR knows more.)
09:34:51 <fizzie> 2.5.64 still supports floppy boot, and 2.5.65 already has the "not supported" error message.
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09:36:16 <Taneb> That's a quick change
09:36:35 <fizzie> "Summary of changes from v2.5.64 to v2.5.65" "Peter Anvin <hpa@zytor.com>: bootsect removal"
09:39:08 <olsner> I've already removed my boot sector and I'm not even at 0.01
09:39:38 <fizzie> Curiously enough, 2.5.64 itself changes bootsect.S by adding the value 21 to the 'disksizes' (supported sector/track numbers) array.
09:40:11 <fizzie> I have a feeling perhaps that change prompted someone to get rid of the whole thing.
09:43:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KXBH best thing?
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10:25:56 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 I have also started seeing the thing where wikipedia tries to change to https automatically. I kind of like it. I think it's set by the "Always use a secure connection when logged in" preference.
10:30:58 <ais523_> bleh, reading proggit is making my hatred of github less irrational
10:31:02 <ais523_> should I be annoyed at this?
10:35:45 <olsner> how does proggit affect your opinion of github?
10:36:26 <ais523_> there's someone reporting on how they managed to send 300,000 emails in 4 minutes /accidentally/ because they were trying to migrate an issue tracker to Github
10:36:33 <ais523_> also that it turns out that there's no other way to do it
10:37:23 <ais523_> yeah, git is suboptimal as a VCS
10:37:36 <Gregor> Yeah, I find that flabbergasting.
10:37:44 <Gregor> Since it's hideously unusable.
10:38:08 <ais523_> git story: I spent like an hour last night trying to figure out a git command to print the hash of HEAD
10:38:23 <ais523_> I'm not sure if there's any 100% reliable way to do it, and there's no /obvious/ way to do it
10:38:39 <ais523_> my current best solution is git log --pretty=format:%H -1
10:39:17 <Gregor> Yeah, git is honestly the worst thing ever. I have to assume that there was malicious intent in its design, because even programmers can't eff up UIs that badly.
10:39:29 <ais523_> Gregor: the actual explanation is that it doesn't have a UI
10:39:42 <ais523_> it has a programming API, which they planned to build a UI on top of
10:39:52 <ais523_> so people started using the API directly
10:40:33 <Gregor> What I find most perplexing is that people actually think git is usable.
10:40:50 <Gregor> I know I'm not insane, so I'm forced to conclude that they are.
10:41:03 <ais523_> I find it "usable" in the sense of "possible to use"
10:41:11 <ais523_> but not in the sense of "usability"
10:41:26 <ais523_> I guess git is the C of version control systems
10:41:42 <ais523_> it lets you do just about anything, but at the expense of needing a lot of complexity to do anything
10:42:07 <Gregor> I find that even without any guidance, it's easier to do everything in hg-git VIA A REPOSITORY FORMAT TRANSLATION than it is to do the same in git with github's help pages.
10:42:09 <ais523_> (personally I prefer darcs)
10:42:20 <ais523_> also github don't understand git, AFAICT
10:42:31 <ais523_> they have a github client for Windows that is incapable of doing some of the most basic operations
10:43:01 <fizzie> ais523_: "git rev-parse HEAD" not doing it?
10:43:01 <Gregor> I used to use darcs, switched to hg because it was good enough and more popular, looked at git and cried for a generation of programmers.
10:43:20 <ais523_> fizzie: I thought I tried that, not at a computer with git on right now so I can't check
10:43:31 <ais523_> perhaps it was something similar I tried
10:43:40 <fizzie> It works in the one repository I tried.
10:43:53 <Gregor> Anyway, I now manage everything on bitbucket/hg and have it automatically cloned to github :)
10:44:00 <Gregor> I recommend this solution for everyone.
10:44:10 <ais523_> I don't, it involves having contact with github
10:44:22 <Gregor> ais523_: The problem is, lots of services that want to be trendy are github-only.
10:44:33 <ais523_> well that just makes them easier to ignore :)
10:44:52 <Gregor> Thanks to having a github clone, I can have all my tests run automatically on every push; and I don't have to touch github itself except on initial commit.
10:45:30 <Gregor> Although Google recruiters have only tried to pick me up over my /bitbucket/ activity, so I guess at least the recruitment world isn't github-only.
10:45:42 <ais523_> Gregor: they tried to pick me up over something, and I have no idea what
10:45:49 <ais523_> just "we see you are active in Open Source"
10:46:14 <ais523_> which could be anything from the smallish patches I have in Gnome, to C-INTERCAL
10:47:03 <Gregor> What I find hilarious is how the Google pick-up artists clearly don't go one step further, to "oh you publish stuff relevant to us"
10:47:17 <Gregor> Their whole process is "clearly we don't give a shit about research, but you can be a code monkey, boy"
10:48:10 <ais523_> well I assumed it was an automated process
10:48:10 <HackEgo> 1105) <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell. <kmc> how will you attack the darkness <zzo38> By surprise!
10:48:38 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1105s/ </ </g' quotes
10:48:44 <Gregor> ais523_: Not /entirely/. Probably the initial selection is, but if you're polite and reply "no thank you" then you get a human. And further contact. FOREVER.
10:48:46 <HackEgo> 1105) <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell. <kmc> how will you attack the darkness <zzo38> By surprise!
10:49:07 <ais523_> Gregor: I told them that I was busy doing a PhD, and check back in 4 years
10:49:14 <ais523_> I'm waiting to see if they do or not
10:49:28 <Taneb> ais523_, how is your PhD going?
10:49:48 <ais523_> Taneb: decently, although I'm annoyed at the lack of research to build upon
10:50:07 <ais523_> it feels like I have to do all the fundamental research myself just so that I can do the research I actually want to do
10:50:19 <Taneb> If I remember correctly, it's something that I am afraid that I am not particularly interested in
10:50:30 <fizzie> We just sent a 14-page reply letter for reviewer comments about a 12-page paper, in the interests of being thorough.
10:50:37 <ais523_> and meanwhile, my supervisor's asking why I'm writing a paper about formalizing delay-insensitive asynchronous hardware rather than working on my thesis
10:51:17 <oerjan> `run grep '[^ ] <' quotes
10:51:19 <HackEgo> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe,
10:51:30 <oerjan> `run grep '[^: ] <' quotes
10:51:32 <HackEgo> <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing \ (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P \ <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your wate
10:51:41 <oerjan> `run grep '[^]: ] <' quotes
10:51:43 <HackEgo> (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P \ <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery! \ <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring
10:52:10 <oerjan> `run allquotes | grep '[^]: ] <'
10:52:11 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 3) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> roc
10:52:43 <ais523_> Taneb: you should be intrested in this stuff anyway, it's interesting!
10:52:55 <oerjan> `run grep '[^]: ] <' quotes | tail
10:52:57 <HackEgo> <HackEgo> 678) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love <HackEgo> 187) <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat \ <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theor
10:53:24 <Taneb> I have a feeling I don't know enough context for its interest to become apparent, ais523_
10:53:56 <Taneb> Having not yet begun to receive any formal education in computer science
10:54:18 <ais523_> Taneb: well basically it's about type systems that require specific useful-for-hardware properties on programs that type in them
10:54:35 <ais523_> things like "there is never more than one copy of this function running concurrently"
10:55:20 <Taneb> (my first lecture is in 3 weeks)
10:56:10 <ais523_> and it's interesting because maths doesn't have a notion of, say, "simultaneously", unless you add it into the type system yourself
10:56:17 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
10:56:26 <ais523_> (nor does it have a notion of causality; forgetting to put causality into your type system is an easy mistake to make)
10:57:07 <Taneb> My first CS lecture will be presented by one of the creators of Haskell
10:58:35 <fizzie> Colin is the name for a dog.
10:59:10 <oerjan> @tell kmc `? quoteformat hth
11:04:30 <Taneb> ...is it even possible to tear apart the very fabric of reality?
11:05:10 <ais523_> Taneb: even if it is, I wouldn't recommend doing so
11:05:43 <Taneb> It has just struck me how weird that cliché is
11:06:59 <oerjan> <Taneb> Finally worked out /why/ you can get the Fibonacci series from Pascal's triangle <-- wait what
11:07:26 <Taneb> oerjan, right align it and sum the left-down diagonals
11:07:53 <oerjan> Taneb: see the plot to "Schild's Ladder"
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11:12:16 <ais523_> btw, has #esoteric seen what's been happening with aimake recently?
11:12:20 <ais523_> it feels like a pretty eso project
11:15:30 <oerjan> the the README doesn't explain the ai part
11:16:20 <ais523_> oerjan: well it's not really AI
11:16:33 <ais523_> it's a cross between "it figures everything out automatically", and the first two letters of "ais523"
11:16:42 <ais523_> assuming you're looking at my aimake rather than someone else's
11:17:35 <oerjan> sorry, went to the top google link, now i see no. 2 is on nethack4.org which seems more promising :P
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11:18:09 <ais523_> it was at #2 even before I documented it
11:18:18 <ais523_> so I suspect it'll climb quickly if it starts being used for anything at all but NetHack 4
11:19:14 <oerjan> nah, how can you possibly compete with iOS and android integration, man
11:19:36 <oerjan> (only slightly joking there)
11:19:44 <ais523_> I guess I don't necessarily have to /compete/, I could just add support for them
11:19:53 <ais523_> but that'd mean actually screwing around with mobile dev
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11:26:44 <Taneb> Right, parts of DF don't really work at 80x25, can anyone suggest a larger but still "nice" terminal size?
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11:27:58 <Taneb> oerjan, "nice" suggests "feasible to run on a modern computer"
11:28:07 <fizzie> I thought "nice" suggested "accurate".
11:29:36 <Taneb> fizzie, only for prophecies
11:30:00 <oerjan> i use 80x43 in putty. that's of course the maximal vertical height that fits with my desired font size.
11:30:24 <fizzie> You can have a nice 1920x720 terminal on a modern computer. (Just take a 2x2 grid of 3840x2160 monitors and put a 4x6 font on it.)
11:31:53 <oerjan> i think cassandra would have something to say about nice ~ accurate for prophecies, although no one would believe her of course.
11:32:10 <fizzie> My typical "two terminals" setup here at work seems to be 119x88.
11:47:01 <fizzie> @tell ais523 The HTMLization at http://nethack4.org/projects/aimake/documentation.html seems to have made a mungle out of the levels of -v: levels >= 0 are missing the "titles", being just an unordered list. (In fact, the HTML has totally mismatched tags.)
11:48:30 <Jafet> Oh I remember dfhack, that game was not bad
11:49:29 <Taneb> Jafet, dfhack is a sort of cheaty tool for Dwarf Fortress
11:50:15 <Jafet> I don't know where you read that. dfhack is an urist management game based on the dwarf fortress simulation engine
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11:52:22 <ais523_> come to think of it, aimake configuration files are probably Turing-complete
11:52:49 <Jafet> Is that like probably polynomial time
11:54:09 <fizzie> ais523_: I sent the underscoreless you a message.
11:54:17 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
11:54:23 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
11:54:39 <ais523_> fizzie: I actually fixed the -v mangle last night
11:54:45 <ais523_> had a chance to push it yet
11:54:55 <ais523_> basically, pod2html seems really buggy
11:55:08 <ais523_> another bizarre thing it did was add semicolons to the URLs in the GPLv3
11:56:02 <fizzie> The links also include the > character in them, but that's perhaps understandable.
11:56:23 <fizzie> Oh, the semicolons are actually probably leftovers from the ">" that ends in the link.
11:56:44 <fizzie> "-- see <<a href="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>">http://www.gnu.org/licenses/></a>;."
11:56:48 <ais523_> perhaps I should try to find (or write) a less buggy POD to HTML convertor than the one that ships with Perl
11:57:03 <ais523_> and oh wow, that's the worst escaping fail I've seen
11:57:08 <ais523_> it probably parses with regexes or something
11:57:31 <fizzie> I'm thinking it turns the > into > first, and then parses and locates links afterward, with a regex.
11:57:47 <fizzie> And "http://...blah>" looks quite linky.
11:58:27 <ais523_> the -v mangle is /technically/ my fault
11:58:34 <ais523_> the POD format spec says that you can't mix =item types in a single list
11:58:44 <ais523_> and -2 is free text, 0's a bullet, and 1's a number
11:59:12 <ais523_> I should have written Z<>0 to stop that being a bullet, but apparently pod2html treats that as a bullet anyway
12:00:21 <ais523_> (Z<>'s is pod's arbitrary no-op you use to work around parsing ambiguities)
12:01:26 <ais523_> I do like pod as a markup format, but it has some really nasty corner cases
12:01:43 <fizzie> The conflation of the C++ term "Plain Old Data" and the Perl term "Plain Old Documentation" is distracting.
12:02:59 <ais523_> I guess you could move to POC++O for C++
12:03:37 <Gregor> But pod != plain-old-object
12:03:46 <Gregor> In fact, plain-old-data is almost exactly NOT an object.
12:19:39 <ais523_> "Never send chain letters via electronic mail. Chain letters are forbidden on the Internet. Your network privileges will be revoked."
12:20:49 <ais523_> actually, even better: ":-) is an example of a smiley (Look sideways)."
12:22:04 <ais523_> Oh bleh, apparently we're supposed to capitalize and punctuate correctly on IRC too.
12:22:33 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
12:22:50 <ais523_> that seems to be for when you're sending messages directly onto someone else's tty using write(1)
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12:26:06 <ais523_> hmm... this is describing Gopher as new
12:26:32 <oerjan> ais523_: btw the -v list at http://nethack4.org/projects/aimake/documentation.html looks like it should have had numbered rather than bulleted points
12:26:50 <ais523_> oerjan: it should be a definition list, and it does start as one
12:26:56 <ais523_> what happens beyond there is a bug in pod2html
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12:27:09 <ais523_> which I've worked around locally by writing the items as -v-2, -v-1, etc.
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12:27:56 <ais523_> aha, I've found the IRC guidelines here
12:27:58 <oerjan> oops fizzie already mentioned it :)
12:28:20 <ais523_> and it seems that people pasting into IRC channels was a problem even in 1995
12:28:26 <ais523_> probably more of one, because pastebins didn't exist back then
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12:39:01 <Roujo> 'morning, everyone
12:40:14 <Taneb> The IRC guidelines?
12:40:20 <ais523_> the netiquette guide I was quoting from is http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
12:40:32 <ais523_> it's an RFC, so it's all official and that
12:45:13 <fizzie> Yay for Funet FileSender, 2.6 gigs of stuffs fetched in a hundred seconds.
12:45:31 <fizzie> Speaking of RFCs, I'm still waiting for those style files for fungot. :p
12:45:53 <fizzie> And speaking of fungot...
12:46:40 <fizzie> pratchett.freenode.net is being a slow.
12:46:58 <fizzie> "NOTICE * :*** Got Ident response" and then not a thing.
12:47:20 <fizzie> Maybe it was some sort of timeouting open-proxy-check, who knows.
12:47:35 -!- fungot has joined.
12:47:39 <oerjan> it detected the ident as a known fugitive and is now telling Interpol.
12:47:51 <oerjan> fungot: what did you dooooooo?
12:47:52 <fungot> oerjan: esoteric means not somewhat usable? ( preferrably one that does not have a philly accent!
12:48:17 <oerjan> fungot: hey don't you start agreeing with ais523_
12:48:17 <fungot> oerjan: i have a " format" function, how do you duplicate?
12:48:44 <ais523_> why can't fungot agree with me? :-(
12:48:44 <fungot> ais523_: i have no idea. i can write other of them
12:49:07 <ais523_> (also RFC 1855 puts the nose in smileys, therefore I now consider this to be official)
12:49:19 <oerjan> ais523_: because then he'll be leaving the channel most of the time! oh wait he's already started!
12:49:35 <fizzie> Smileys with noses feel all quaint.
12:51:40 <fizzie> Is ":5" like "drooling from the side of the mouth"?
12:52:05 <oerjan> either that or some serious underbite
12:52:37 <quintopia> huh that 2 makes a good gaunt nose
12:57:14 <quintopia> is there anything new and interesting in esotericland?
12:58:02 <ais523_> well it's not new, I just mentioned it
12:58:06 <ais523_> I think it's TC in configuration
12:58:36 <ais523_> it seems to have everything necessary to be TC, although probably you'd hit a filename limit eventually and run out of storage
12:58:45 <ais523_> perhaps it's doable without touching the filesystem at all
13:00:29 <Taneb> quintopia, ais523_'s make replacement that needs much less config
13:00:59 <quintopia> a drop-in replacement? that sounds useful!
13:01:08 <quintopia> but where do i read about such a thing
13:01:16 <Taneb> From what I have heard, almost drop out
13:01:27 <Taneb> http://nethack4.org/projects/aimake/
13:02:37 <ais523_> well, it can arguably be drop-in, in that it can entirely ignore the makefile and work anyway
13:03:27 <quintopia> sounds good to me. will it be possible for it to do installation without config eventually?
13:03:59 <Taneb> quintopia, that future is now
13:04:11 <ais523_> quintopia: actually it can almost do that now
13:04:22 <ais523_> however it sucks at choosing filenames for executables
13:04:25 <ais523_> and yes, that page is outdated
13:04:40 <ais523_> the filename-choosing logic is there, I just haven't hooked it up to the executable installer yet
13:04:59 <quintopia> i see no reason why it would be annoying to specify the filename in the installation command
13:06:09 <ais523_> because I'm used to projects that build multiple executables
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13:08:06 <quintopia> but how do you go about coming up with filenames automagically?
13:09:03 <ais523_> grep for "namehint" in the config file
13:09:16 <ais523_> basically it works out which files have the largest weight in naming the executable
13:09:24 <ais523_> then takes the common prefix (both filename and directory name)
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13:12:13 <ais523_> well it tries to distinguish files that probably contain relevant code, from files that are probably libraries
13:12:29 <ais523_> the heuristic is that a file probably contains relevant code if it contains a main() function or any initialized read-write data
13:15:21 <quintopia> and namehints are created automagically also?
13:16:20 <ais523_> nothing's created automagically, except sys:, config_rule: and config_option: objects
13:16:30 <ais523_> you can read how they're created in the config file (at the end of the aimake script itself)
13:17:20 <quintopia> so namehints are user provided in the source files? i so confuse
13:18:19 <ais523_> quintopia: no, they're created by aimake's config file
13:18:23 <ais523_> like everything else in aimake
13:18:32 <ais523_> it's basically a rule engine + a set of rules
13:18:48 <ais523_> and the reason it's architected like that is that it makes it much easier to test
13:19:23 <ais523_> if everything's treated the same way, it's much less likely to make it accidentally non-idempotent or accidentally fail to track dependencies correctly or something like that
13:20:16 <quintopia> so they are created by aimake, but not automatically...
13:20:35 <boily> oerjan: about underload's monoidalitude, I'll have to believe you at face value for now.
13:21:12 <ais523_> underload's obviously a monoid
13:21:22 <ais523_> with concatenation being the operation, and the null string the unit
13:22:23 <Gregor> Oh, everything's a monoid to moneyes.
13:22:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:23:05 <Gregor> Also, http://bitbucket.org/GregorR/exc . *runs*
13:23:10 <ais523_> actually I think all concatenative languages are monoids by definition
13:23:12 <oerjan> although brainfuck is a monoid in essentially the same way
13:23:22 <quintopia> Gregor: what is everything to soreyes?
13:23:51 <ais523_> BF is technically concatenative too, isn't it?
13:23:58 <Taneb> Gregor, aren't those dinosaurs?
13:24:01 <ais523_> just not in an interesting way
13:24:55 <oerjan> brainfuck behaves too erratically on pre-initialized tape
13:25:11 <oerjan> although there isn't anything stopping you from clearing cells first
13:26:31 <quintopia> i learned today that t-rex lived closer in time to the present day than to the time when stegosaurus lived
13:26:32 <ais523_> yep, it's better than Snowflake in that respect
13:26:51 <ais523_> where by definition, given a suitably initialized stack, any program can do anything whatsoever
13:27:12 <ais523_> hmm... I think it's interesting to draw a distinction between reversible languages, and rereversible languages
13:27:26 <ais523_> in a reversible language, given a program and an eventual state, you can construct the initial state of the program
13:27:40 <ais523_> in a rereversible language, given a program, there is another program in the same language that undoes its effects
13:27:47 <ais523_> which is a stronger requirement
13:28:30 <quintopia> so rereversible languages might form a group. like burro. or rather, my improvement to burro.
13:29:00 <oerjan> ais523_: that's like the difference between bijection and isomorphism
13:29:29 <ais523_> quintopia: yeah, the original burro didn't form a group because it was reversible but not rereversible
13:29:32 <Taneb> quintopia, I think that any rereversible language forms a group possibly without associativity so not a group at all
13:29:48 <oerjan> or possibly between injection and monomorphism
13:30:34 <oerjan> monomorphism is the same
13:31:01 <oerjan> it's the difference between injection/monomorphism and left invertible
13:32:28 <ais523_> Snowflake has possibly the strongest reversibility I've seen in an esolang (within a single cycle): for each command, there is a specific other command that's both a left and right inverse of it
13:33:20 <ais523_> (from this, it's immediately impossible to conclude that Snowflake has no infinite loops within a single cycle)
13:33:28 <ais523_> oerjan: well it only has finitely many commands
13:33:48 <ais523_> unlike, say, Burro, where the inverse of a single command can IIRC be multiple commands
13:34:26 <ais523_> I don't really remember either
13:34:46 <quintopia> ais523_: did you ever read my suggested improvements to make it form a proper group?
13:35:18 <ais523_> quintopia: I don't think so, and can't find them on the wiki article or talk page
13:35:44 <oerjan> i recall discussing making a language with all basic commands _self_-inverse.
13:36:04 <ais523_> yeah, I recall that being discussed too
13:36:14 <ais523_> Snowflake needed to be reasonably easy to program in, though
13:36:21 <quintopia> ais523_: that's because i posted them on the xkcd fora instead
13:36:24 <oerjan> of course this property is not preserved for composite commands
13:36:26 <quintopia> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14986
13:36:44 <ais523_> or at least, I didn't mind making arbitrary changes to make it harder, but I wanted it to be reasonable to write a working program
13:38:06 <ais523_> hmm... it's interesting how close cpressey's fixed conditional in Burro ended up to FORK/SPOON in Snowflake
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13:48:51 <ais523_> yay, I only scored 10 that time
13:48:56 <ais523_> also, onoz is pretty interesting as BF derivatives go
13:58:17 <Roujo> Life, presumably. Out of 10. Success.
13:58:56 <quintopia> when you assume, you give an ass to Uma Thurman
14:00:10 <ais523_> quintopia: the BF derivative dodging game
14:00:20 <ais523_> basically you keep clicking on random page on Esolang
14:00:30 <ais523_> and count how many BF derivs youu find before you find a language you created
14:02:15 <boily> could we, like, y'know, like, delete and remove and obliterate and shred to pieces so small you start doing atomic fission the brainfuck derivatives?
14:02:23 <Taneb> ais523_, does Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck count?
14:02:46 <Roujo> <quintopia> when you assume, you give an ass to Uma Thurman
14:03:43 <Taneb> How about I hate your bf-derivative I really do?
14:04:32 <ais523_> I forget what that language is
14:04:40 <ais523_> the counts are only going to be approximate anyway, though
14:04:49 <ais523_> due to judgement calls or clicking too fast
14:04:53 <Taneb> Aaargh, thought I had scored 3 but it was Fugue rather than Fueue
14:06:34 <ais523_> that sort of thing happens all the time to me
14:07:35 <boily> I got confused. some languages had a BFDish name, but the language itself was not quite BFDian enough...
14:08:11 <Taneb> I've ended up at the page for me
14:09:11 <Roujo> What game is this? =P
14:09:18 <ais523_> the BF derivative dodging game
14:09:25 <ais523_> [15:00] <ais523_> basically you keep clicking on random page on Esolang [15:00] <ais523_> and count how many BF derivs youu find before you find a language you created
14:09:42 <ais523_> AFAICT, if you want to do /really/ well, you have to be either cpressey or zzo38
14:09:51 <ais523_> although I hit Taneb before I hit me, usually
14:09:59 <Roujo> So... Infinite score for me? =P
14:10:02 <ais523_> so Taneb's likely to see the opposite results ;)
14:10:17 <ais523_> Roujo: if you have no non-BF-derivative languages, you have to write one so as to not be stuck clicking forever
14:10:31 <Taneb> Yeah, just hit ais523
14:10:38 <Roujo> I have no language, period =P
14:10:56 <Roujo> I guess I know what I have to do now!
14:10:59 <Taneb> Just hit Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
14:11:43 <quintopia> maybe we should change the game to be "until you land on your own language or one of cpressey's or Zzo38's"
14:12:50 <Roujo> Maybe put in bonus points if it's your own language
14:13:08 <Roujo> Well, deduce some points from your total, really
14:13:13 <Gregor> I'm up to 7 and still haven't hit me >: (
14:13:17 <Roujo> Since it seems the goal is the get a low score?
14:13:24 <quintopia> although the word you want is deduct
14:13:36 <boily> Massive Multiplayer Online Esoteric Brainfuck Derivative Dodge!
14:14:23 <Roujo> quintopia: Nah, I want to use logical axioms to find out what my score is >_>
14:15:01 <ais523_> Roujo: I thought that last sentence was a language idea
14:15:11 <ais523_> until the second time I read it
14:17:47 <ais523_> Gregor: I've scored like 30 before now
14:18:02 <Gregor> Yes, but I'm at work ;)
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14:20:01 <Taneb> Wow, just actually scored 3
14:20:30 <boily> how many samples would one need to get a statistically safe average that could be published on the user's page?
14:20:32 <quintopia> this game could be scripted, if the brainfuck derivative category were accurate and up-to-date
14:21:56 <ais523_> you wouldn't really need to sample it, you could just calculate
14:22:15 <ais523_> except that MediaWiki's random page command isn't uniformly weighted
14:22:37 <ais523_> basically it assigns a random float between 0 and 1 to each page, then the random page button generates a random float and looks for the next higher float that belongs to a page
14:22:53 <Gregor> Actually, the calculation is simple enough that you don't even need a program. Number of pages in the BF-derivs category divided by number of languages you've made.
14:23:27 <boily> oh. right. but I still like my overengineered solution :D
14:23:30 <Taneb> ais523_, doesn't that wind up as roughly uniform weighted for a sufficiently large number of pages?
14:23:45 <ais523_> Taneb: yeah, but some pages will be more heavily weighted than others
14:23:50 <Gregor> Or rather, bfderivs/(bfderivs+yourlangs)
14:24:14 <Gregor> Nowait... oh well, I'm not sure precisely the math apparently X-D
14:24:45 <boily> do we count your own BFDes differently than other people's BFDes? do you count them at all?
14:25:07 <boily> (own languages) / (1 + own BFD)?
14:25:13 <Gregor> I think the rule is that if you've made BF-derivs, you don't deserve to play the game.
14:25:27 <ais523_> if you hit your own BF deriv, you have to keep going
14:25:51 <Roujo> What if you invented BF?
14:26:57 <Roujo> That makes sense, yeah
14:27:12 <quintopia> ais523_: is there a tool that explores the gaps between page's assigned floats to figure out which page is most heavily weighted?
14:27:14 <Taneb> If I hypothetically uploaded the Ook! derivative I wrote when I was 12, would that count?
14:27:30 <ais523_> quintopia: not as far as I know
14:27:45 <ais523_> Taneb: I still count BF derivative derivatives as BF derivatives
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14:28:10 <Taneb> I think I lost the specs for my Ook! derivative
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14:30:08 <Jafet> BF', a BF derivative
14:30:48 <Roujo> We had a similar conversation in another channel
14:32:00 <Roujo> We were thinking of starting a cover band for a K-Pop group called f(x), just so that we could call ourselves df(x)/dx or f'(x)
14:33:00 <Taneb> Roujo, I haven't had much exposure to K-pop, I find the various groups very difficult to differentiate
14:33:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, publish it, so i can write a tumblr entry decrying this crime against the perfect language
14:33:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think it's been completely lost now
14:33:48 <Taneb> THIS WAS A THIRD OF MY LIFE AGO
14:34:00 <Taneb> I'VE STARTED AND FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL SINCE I LAST READ IT
14:34:19 <Taneb> Actually, I can vaguely remember what it was like
14:34:27 <Phantom_Hoover> wow i found something dumber than a brainfuck derivative
14:36:44 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: there's a version in a more usual encoding at http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%99%A6/~
14:37:27 <Roujo> Taned: To be honest, I can't really tell either - except for that one band that I like a lot. =P
14:37:31 <ais523_> and seriously, there are languages there that are worse than even the worst bf deriv
14:38:02 <Roujo> ais523_, Phantom_Hoover: Like what? =P
14:38:51 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I was going to say Snack, but someone added it to Shameful while I wasn't paying attention
14:39:21 <boily> I seem to miss whatever is U+1A85...
14:39:46 <Roujo> "Esme is an esoteric programming language[citation needed] created by User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God as a lol."
14:40:21 <ais523_> Shameful (which officialy does not exist) is reserved for only the very worst languages
14:40:42 <ais523_> also read the talk page for Esme
14:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how there's a command in the reference interpreter which isn't in the spec
14:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i also like how i'm p. sure the reference interpreter shouldn't work at all
14:42:49 <Roujo> Wow. Okay, so the bar for my first esolang is pretty low, I guess. =P
14:43:07 <Roujo> "You have eaten as a snack right 2 people."
14:43:09 <boily> I think poison is the complete worst.
14:43:10 <ais523_> Roujo: to be fair, it requires a sort of perverse genius to create a language quite that bad
14:44:31 <Roujo> ais523_: It doesn't even do anything! It doesn't even have a POOP function!
14:44:48 <ais523_> Roujo: I am not debating that that language is bad
14:44:58 <ais523_> there is no point in arguing that that language is bad because everyone will agree with you
14:45:12 <Roujo> I know, I was kidding =P
14:45:14 <boily> I disagree about automatically agreeing.
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14:58:18 <boily> `relcome audioPhil
14:58:21 <HackEgo> audioPhil: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:02:08 <HackEgo> audioPhil: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:02:10 <Gregor> There are also non-ridiculous versions.
15:02:54 <Roujo> `bienvenue audioPhil
15:02:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
15:03:12 <HackEgo> ` \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ erflist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ freedom \ frink \ fsck \ fu
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15:08:19 <ais523_> it seems like half the activity of this channel is creating new, ridiculous sorts of welcome sometimes
15:08:27 <HackEgo> (.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :83ozz
15:08:47 <ais523_> `relcome is one of the more popular ones, though
15:08:51 <HackEgo> is: one: of: the: more: popular: ones,: though: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:08:58 <Roujo> ais523_: Don't forget the part where I cat stuff for no good reason
15:09:04 <Roujo> `run cat cat | cat
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15:14:06 <Roujo> And thus the cuttle died
15:27:43 <Bike> @tell boily http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/scicurious-brain/2013/09/16/ignobels-2013-who-ate-the-dead-shrew-for-science/
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16:00:58 <boily> Bike: I deny the parboiled shrew.
16:07:31 <Gregor> Roujo: Actually, there can be a purpose to | cat.
16:14:13 <Gracenotes> there are things which like paging themselves unnecessarily
16:19:24 <Roujo> Gregor: Well yeah. I just don't really do it for a good reason, that's all
16:20:40 <Gregor> Gracenotes: Hahaha, 'struth.
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16:25:18 <Koen__> I can see use for | cat -e
16:26:00 <fizzie> But "cat -e" is an abomination, is it not?
16:26:21 <fizzie> (Not to mention oh so POSIX-incompliant.)
16:27:28 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
16:28:40 <Gregor> Oh gawd, cat -e is Satan incarnate.
16:29:04 <fizzie> Gregor: What do you think of cat -n then?-)
16:29:38 <Gregor> Even the solitary option that POSIX specifies (-u) is ridiculous.
16:30:21 <Koen__> `run man cat | grep '-e'
16:30:23 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config \ grep: option requires an argument -- 'e' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try `grep --help' for more information.
16:30:28 <Gregor> cat --system echo hi # equivalent to echo hi | cat
16:32:34 <nooodl> <boily> henooodllo. <-- good stealth greeting i didn't notice
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16:33:55 <S1> Did anyone ever try to implement QuickSort in Brainfuck?
16:34:08 <S1> Cause that is what I am trying to do.
16:35:03 <Koen__> I'l bet you anything that several ones did
16:35:23 <S1> I just need to find them. That's why I'm asking
16:35:40 <S1> Well I don't NEED to. Would be just fine.
16:35:44 <Koen__> on the other hand, every one here knows brainfuck and everyone here knows quicksort
16:35:53 <Koen__> what can we do you for?
16:36:30 <S1> Nothing. I was just asking ^^ But you can look at my program so far if you want.
16:36:38 <fizzie> There's a StackExchange challenge for it, with one accepted answer.
16:36:57 <fizzie> (It's eminently findable with the search terms of "brainfuck quicksort".)
16:37:34 <Koen__> I think the hard part is if you're sorting an array in-place you need to remember the begin and end indexes of every sub-array you're "recursively" sorting
16:38:38 <Bike> can i just code it in c and use the c to bf compiler
16:38:41 <HackEgo> S1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:38:56 <S1> Nah that'd be cheatin
16:39:49 <S1> I split the array in two, then recursively run the programm on each of the new two arrays.
16:40:01 <Koen__> I think someone had a nice environment wwhere you could name variables and stuff
16:40:17 <Koen__> and then it replaces with the appropriate amount of > and <
16:40:17 <S1> I split it by moving the right part a few cells, so that there is some space in between.
16:40:25 <S1> NO CHEATING!
16:40:28 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/c33227832138905c415ff573eae65a91/tumblr_msv9kcrYxt1sgh0voo1_500.png beware.
16:40:30 <Koen__> https://github.com/pikhq/pebble
16:40:58 <Bike> if i write the compiler myself can it be not cheating
16:41:50 <S1> You mean you want to write a c to bf compiler in bf? Well if you can do that without using one from the internet and without writing the c to bf compiler in c and then compiling it to bf it's ok.
16:41:54 <Koen__> would it be cheating to build a boat to enter a swimming contest?
16:42:20 <Roujo> Koen__: Depends if you're swimming in BF-derivates, I'd guess
16:42:25 <Koen__> Bike: I think it's ok for you to write your own compiler yourself... but you're not allowed to compile it using another compiler
16:42:30 <Bike> what i if i write a c to bf compiler in c and use it to compile itself into bf
16:42:46 <Koen__> pretty sure that wouldn't work
16:42:49 <S1> Come on I think I made myself clear :D NO COMPILERS
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16:42:56 <Bike> these requirements seem rather arbitrary!
16:43:15 <Bike> truly, can we not say that i myself am a compiler of a description of an algorithm into brainfuck
16:43:39 <Koen__> if that were true we'd have to kill you
16:44:03 <S1> No because you don't translate one thing to another but think about HOW to implement it in bf
16:44:23 <S1> For the case: Human compilers allowed -_-
16:44:37 <Koen__> doesn't "implementing program A in language B" mean compiling?
16:44:43 <Bike> "if you meet a compiler on the road, pkill it" -- lin chi
16:44:46 <S1> I dont think so
16:45:48 <Koen__> hey is there a simple "move n cells to the right" algorithm in brainfuck? where n is the content of the current cell (and you don't want to destroy it)
16:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> by moving the tape you lose all information on the content of n, essentially
16:47:21 <S1> can there be blank cells between the cells that are to be moved or am I allowed to create it?
16:48:04 <Koen__> so maybe it would be a good idea to use every other cell for the array, and every other cell to store intermediate stuff to move along the array
16:48:06 <Bike> nothing on http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck_algorithms
16:48:07 <S1> I think I don't get the problem exactly. Please write an example. A state before the program and a state after it.
16:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> in brainfuck you can only move information a bit at a time, i guess
16:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> and that bit has to correspond to whether or not some cell is zeroed
16:49:31 <Bike> you could probably write something to turn n{n{0}} into 0{n{1}} [totally appropriate use of verilog syntax
16:50:06 <Koen__> you know I'm very uncomfortable with unmatched brackets
16:52:33 <Roujo> ...that looks so wrongm
16:52:53 <Koen__> I'm not sure if that's what your verilog syntax meant but you could turn (n)(x)(0) into (0)(x)(n-1) if every other cell is a tmp cell
16:53:27 <Koen__> and thus you've moved two cells right and the content of the current cell has been decreased; repeat until it's 0 and you're there
16:53:46 <Koen__> Phantom_Hoover: when I write the whole brainfuck program, I've got AN INFINITY of tmp cells
16:55:03 <Koen__> but that's horribly slow
16:55:24 <Koen__> you need n^2 operations to move n cells
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16:55:52 <Koen__> you know what screw brainfuck, I'm gonna write a sorting algorithm in thue
16:56:26 <Koen__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue
16:58:35 <myname> Koen__: i'm fascinated about subleq right now
16:59:48 <Koen__> subtract and lsomething if equal
17:00:03 <Koen__> subtract and branch if less than or equal to?
17:00:35 <myname> basically, everything is a pointer
17:01:08 <myname> it's one instruction set computing
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17:05:16 <boily> huh? my bot is dead???
17:05:27 -!- metasepia has joined.
17:05:35 <metasepia> Your divination: "Small Accumulating" to "Attending"
17:06:07 * boily pats his bot “Good bot. Yes you are.”
17:08:36 <metasepia> cheese definition: a food consisting of the coagulated, compressed, and usually ripened curd of milk separated from the whey.
17:09:00 <Roujo> Now that doesn't sound very appetizing >_>
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17:09:28 <metasepia> tendon definition: a tough cord or band of dense white fibrous connective tissue that unites a muscle with some other part (as a bone) and transmits the force which the muscle exerts.
17:09:49 <boily> when tendon sounds yummier than cheese, there's a problem.
17:10:19 <boily> (of course, tendon in phở is good, but that's besides the point.)
17:11:46 <Koen__> I'm kinda disappointed
17:11:59 <Koen__> I've been looking for some thue-like that would accept variables
17:12:16 <Koen__> that is, some kind of pattern-matching
17:12:52 <Bike> variables how?
17:12:56 <Roujo> Why do I feel like we've had this conversation before
17:13:43 <Koen__> well variables may not be the best name
17:13:49 <Koen__> regular expressions maybe
17:13:59 <boily> Roujo: because Koen__ likes variables.
17:14:19 <Koen__> so I've looked up thutu and thubi
17:14:25 <Roujo> With the tendon part as well
17:14:37 <Koen__> the closest thing to what I'm looking for is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Definer
17:15:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
17:16:04 <boily> Roujo: no, we never talked about tendons beforehand.
17:16:19 <boily> Koen__: Definer has a very l-system feel.
17:16:54 <HackEgo> 2013-08-12.txt:18:43:00: <boily> ~duck i-esse-erre j'ai dit!
17:17:05 <Roujo> Pretty sure that didn't work
17:18:46 <metasepia> ASL+ - An algebraic specification language by David Aspinall of the University of Edinburgh.
17:21:20 <Koen__> on the other hand, I think all string-rewriting systems kinda feel alike
17:23:43 <Koen__> boily: in fact l-system looks a lot more like Thue than Definer, in my opinion
17:25:42 * boily strokes his sandpapery beard stubble...
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17:35:13 <Roujo> boily: Quite, quite
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17:41:41 <AnotherTest> ais523: would you say that, the ultimate purpose of a Snowflake program is to essentially produce an interpreter that does all of the work?
17:42:21 <AnotherTest> Well, I think it's an interesting language
17:42:28 <AnotherTest> although I don't fully understand the threads
17:42:36 <ais523> it took me a while to understand them too
17:43:01 <ais523> basically the idea is that fork splits every thread, spoon joins the split bunches, a thread can split into 0 threads but those 0 threads can still be split and joined
17:43:27 <AnotherTest> do threads run in parallel as well or is that not a requirement?
17:43:27 <ais523> but some entity (the shabby/decrepit threads) has to be added to track when that happens
17:43:39 <ais523> it's unobservable whether they run in parallel or in order
17:43:44 <ais523> but the spec assumes they run in parallel
17:44:40 <AnotherTest> well, what I specifically do not understand in the different types of threads (shabby, tarnished, shiny and deprecated)
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17:46:29 <AnotherTest> so, as far as I understand, you start with a single thread (which appearantly needs to have a parent as well, so you actually start with an infinite amount of threads?)
17:46:48 <AnotherTest> then that thread can be split by a fork command
17:46:56 <Roujo> As I recall, it's threads all the way up =P
17:47:30 * boily lobs a mine-turtle over at Roujo
17:47:38 <AnotherTest> I just don't really see what's up with all the different types of threads
17:48:40 <ais523> OK, say I have a thread and I split it into two threads
17:48:51 <ais523> then I split one of those threads into 3, and the other into 0
17:48:55 <ais523> then I split each of those 3 into 2
17:49:06 <ais523> the group of 0 threads has to also split into 0, again
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17:49:14 <ais523> then I can undo those splits and should end up with the original organization
17:49:22 <ais523> it's quite hard to track anything about a group of 0 threads
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17:49:31 <ais523> so I use a group of 1, with a different adjective, instead
17:51:33 <ais523> AnotherTest: basically you just add a shabby thread
17:51:36 <ais523> which represents the group of 0
17:51:52 <ais523> and it's pretty useful, you can use it to do conditionals
17:51:52 <Roujo> "Is adding 0 to a number the same as not doing anything at all?" ~ Mao
17:51:59 <Bike> i must say i think of shabbiness as a property of ropes, not threads
17:52:02 <ais523> Bike: can't halt in a rereversible language
17:52:25 <Bike> is that different from reversibility
17:52:46 <ais523> Bike: it's different in that in a reversible language, the steps to reverse it don't have to exist within the language itself
17:54:15 <AnotherTest> ais523: so what's the type of a non-zero thread? Do those have a type at all. Or is it not the sero thread that this given this type?
17:54:36 <ais523> basically, running threads are shiny
17:55:10 <Bike> "There is no facility for entering comments, due for the tendency for documentation to get out of date quickly" i must say you do some crazy stuff
17:55:11 <ais523> threads that running threads split from (and that running threads will eventually join into) are tarnished
17:55:11 <ais523> groups of 0 that would be currently running if they had any threads are shabby
17:55:11 <ais523> and groups of 0 that more groups of 0 have been split from are decrepit
17:57:21 <quintopia> i see this is a snowflake discussion
17:57:53 <ais523> AnotherTest: you start with a shiny thread
17:57:57 <ais523> with infinitely many tarnished parents
17:58:25 <AnotherTest> Ok, I get that so far. I still don't get the decrepit and shappy threads though :(
17:58:51 <ais523> basically say I try to run FORK, with an empty list at TOS
17:58:51 <Roujo> Split a shiny thread to 0 children -> 1 Shabby thread
17:59:03 <ais523> yeah, it splits into 0 children, which has to be tracked somehow
17:59:06 <Roujo> Split a tarnished thread to 0 children -> 1 Decrept thread
17:59:16 <ais523> so we create a shabby thread that basically just sits there and stops its parent running
17:59:31 <AnotherTest> what happens when you split a decrept thread though
17:59:36 <Roujo> `addquote <ais523> until you SPOON
17:59:40 <boily> quintopia: AAAAAAAAAAURGH! need to mail the biscuits!
17:59:40 <HackEgo> 1106) <ais523> until you SPOON
17:59:50 <ais523> AnotherTest: they don't split
17:59:52 <ais523> because they aren't running
17:59:57 <ais523> only the shiny and shabby threads split
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18:00:29 <quintopia> it's okay, i haven't gone to gorham yet. i'm probably a week away still
18:01:30 <boily> besides, I think that's the closest I can get to mailing something to a *ham.
18:02:02 <Roujo> boily: What if you mailed a ham to somewhere strange?
18:02:53 <boily> uhm. considering my mail karma, I don't think it's a good idea.
18:02:59 <Gregor> What if elliott mailed SIX hams to somewhere stranger.
18:03:13 <Roujo> Gregor: That's overkill and you know it D:
18:03:15 * boily still remembers that time where we tried to mail yak cheese from China...
18:03:35 <Roujo> "Express? Nahh, it's already rotten milk, how bad can it get?"
18:05:09 <Gregor> boily: No soap, radio!
18:05:23 * Roujo laughs, everybody laughs, nobody knows why
18:05:42 <quintopia> not cool, not funny, not a good joke
18:05:43 <ais523> Roujo: the problem is that the punchline is starting to become legitimately funny in random contexts through association
18:05:51 <ais523> which completely destroys its original purpose
18:06:03 <boily> which by itself is becoming an antiantijoke.
18:06:09 <Roujo> So... Soap, no radio?
18:07:12 <ion> (Soap -> Void) -> Radio
18:08:01 <ais523> Void is Haskell's name for the uninhabited type, right?
18:08:15 <boily> ais523: the duck agrees.
18:08:40 <Roujo> `unicode WHITE SQUARE
18:08:55 <ais523> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
18:09:05 <Roujo> Crap, the square isn't the same!
18:09:36 <Roujo> `unicode WHITE MEDIUM SMALL SQUARE
18:09:52 <boily> heh? `unicode is a new command?
18:09:59 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'yes'"
18:10:02 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8")
18:10:11 <ais523> OK, yet another reason Python's whitespace thing sucks
18:10:11 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'a'"
18:10:32 <boily> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A
18:10:39 <ais523> I saw a post on a forum a while back which was meant to be Python but the whitespace was destroyed by the forum software…
18:10:48 <ais523> Roujo: do you use dead keys on your keyboard?
18:10:50 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'GREEK SMALL LETTER X'"
18:10:54 <ais523> you probably have to type ` space unicode
18:11:06 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'GREEK ZETA'"
18:11:07 <ais523> `unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER CHI
18:11:37 <Roujo> ais523: Yeah, that's what I'm supposed to do
18:11:49 <Roujo> I just forget it often, since I don't need to do it to `run stuff
18:12:06 <AnotherTest> I should map all of my keys + Alt Gr to greek equivalents
18:12:10 <ais523> it seems there's an ŕ, but you need to use combining characters to backquote an r
18:12:14 <Roujo> But then again, that's by design, probably =P
18:12:23 <Roujo> What's a dead key? =P
18:12:44 <ais523> Roujo: key with an accent that you press in order to accent the next letter you type
18:12:46 <boily> Roujo: si t'es sur le layout canadien français, c'est les touches qui font un accent, puis que t'appuies sur une autre touche après.
18:14:20 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'HEBREW SMALL LETTER ALEPH'"
18:14:29 <Roujo> ais523, boily: Yeah, I have dead keys then
18:14:38 <Roujo> They just don't work on consonants =P
18:15:00 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'HEBREW ALEPH'"
18:15:05 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'HEBREW LETTER ALEPH'"
18:15:25 <quintopia> why can't hackego like grep around for the closest thing that matches...
18:15:35 <Roujo> `unicode CANADIAN SYLLABICS OY
18:16:03 <Roujo> `unicode UNMARRIED PARTNERSHIP SYMBOL
18:16:06 <Gregor> quintopia: As you know full well, HackEgo can do only what you tell it to.
18:16:19 <Roujo> `unicode COMBINING ENCLOSING UPWARD POINTING TRIANGLE
18:16:23 <quintopia> and sometimes it can't even do that
18:16:29 <HackEgo> df: Warning: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory \ Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on \ - 23G 22G 28M 100% /hackenv
18:16:50 <ais523> what's taking up all that space anyway?
18:16:58 <HackEgo> 0/sys/fs/ext4/features \ 0/sys/fs/ext4 \ 0/sys/fs/cgroup \ 0/sys/fs \ 0/sys/bus/cpu/devices \ 0/sys/bus/cpu/drivers \ 0/sys/bus/cpu \ 0/sys/bus/clocksource/devices \ 0/sys/bus/clocksource/drivers \ 0/sys/bus/clocksource \ 0/sys/bus/platform/devices \ 0/sys/bus/platform/drivers/uml-blkdev \ 0/sys/bus/platform/drivers/alarmtimer \ 0/sys
18:17:06 <ais523> `run du --si / | sort -n
18:17:15 <ais523> it's probably going to time out :(
18:17:30 <Roujo> `unicode MONGOLIAN FREE VARIATION SELECTOR THREE
18:17:37 <HackEgo> du: cannot read directory `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ du: cannot read dir
18:17:46 <ais523> `run du / 2>/dev/null | sort -n
18:18:08 <Gregor> ais523: You won't be able to tell what's taking up the space because you can only see a tiny portion of a chroot.
18:18:10 <ais523> (normally you have to worry about reading /proc or the like, but the HackEgo sandbox means that everything is fine)
18:18:22 <ais523> Gregor: oh, I assumed it meant the /chroot/ was full
18:18:37 <ais523> I assumed the sandbox wouldn't be able to see outside its own filesystem even with df
18:18:43 <Roujo> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
18:18:45 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM '"
18:19:09 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:19:12 <Gregor> ais523: Naw, df is just mounted fs. The chroot has no quota anyway.
18:19:29 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
18:19:31 <ais523> well then the chroot might /actually/ be full
18:19:35 <ais523> and probably should be quota'd
18:19:56 <Gregor> Naw, there's no point in quotaing the chroot. Quotaing HackEgo, yes.
18:22:36 <Roujo> `run chroot oerjan/
18:22:39 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/chroot: Permission denied
18:22:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quota: not found
18:22:55 <quintopia> what's the sandbox built on these days?
18:23:05 <Roujo> `run chroot oerjan/
18:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> is there not a command or whatever for telling you the free space left in a filesystem
18:23:50 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:23:59 <Gregor> quintopia: umlbox, like it has been for quite a long time.
18:24:09 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, yeah, df -h, like I ran two minutes ago.
18:25:50 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
18:26:02 -!- mnoqy has joined.
18:29:49 <fizzie> `unicode HEBREW LETTER ALEF
18:30:48 <kmc> `unicode ALEF SYMBOL
18:31:14 <ion> `unicode ALF
18:31:17 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'ALF'"
18:31:21 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
18:31:57 <Roujo> `unicode '; DROP TABLE CHARACTERS;--
18:32:02 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name ''; DROP TABLE CHARACTERS;--'"
18:32:21 <fizzie> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
18:32:34 -!- Zuu_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:32:56 <nooodl> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
18:33:12 <nooodl> `unicode SUNSET OVER BUILDINGS
18:33:14 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'SUNSET OVER BUILDINGS'"
18:33:14 <myname> `unicode RANDOM CAPSLOCKED WORDS
18:33:17 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'RANDOM CAPSLOCKED WORDS'"
18:33:18 <fizzie> `unicode TEACUP WITHOUT HANDLE
18:33:19 <boily> `unicode TIBETAN MARK GTER YIG MGO -UM GTER TSHEG MA
18:33:19 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'TEACUP WITHOUT HANDLE'"
18:33:34 <Roujo> `unicode UMBRELLA WITH RAINDROPS
18:33:35 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'UMBRELLA WITH RAINDROPS'"
18:33:36 <nooodl> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f307/index.htm um excuse me.
18:33:38 <Roujo> `unicode UMBRELLA WITH RAIN
18:33:40 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'UMBRELLA WITH RAIN'"
18:33:40 <Roujo> `unicode UMBRELLA WITH RAIN DROPS
18:33:43 <fizzie> Hey, now! TEACUP WITHOUT HANDLE is U+1F375.
18:34:03 <Roujo> `unicode FIZZIE WITHOUT HANDLE
18:34:05 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'FIZZIE WITHOUT HANDLE'"
18:34:10 <fizzie> `unicode GEAR WITHOUT HUB
18:34:16 <fizzie> `unicode FACE WITHOUT MOUTH
18:34:18 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'FACE WITHOUT MOUTH'"
18:34:23 <fizzie> That, too, should exist.
18:34:31 <boily> nooodl: uhm. why would anyone need that.
18:34:31 <fizzie> (Time to upgrade the Unicode database?)
18:35:13 <AnotherTest> any appropriate ASCII symbol for "xor" that's not ^?
18:35:49 <fizzie> "(+)" if you can go with multiple characters?
18:36:09 <boily> AnotherTest: ⊗ U+2297.
18:36:38 <fizzie> I don't really know about (+), it's kind of silly.
18:37:51 <Roujo> Wait, that's not ASCII
18:38:02 <Roujo> (But still, apparently that's a thing)
18:39:45 <fizzie> Maybe ↑, that's ASCII(-1963). (Except it's really for NAND.)
18:40:07 <Roujo> NAND = XOR for some values, doesn't it?
18:40:10 <Roujo> Close enough for me
18:40:27 <fizzie> For most values, even.
18:40:49 <fizzie> There's always >< too.
18:42:30 <boily> are there any 4+ punctuation symbol operators defined in the currently available Haskell libraries, or have the multiple developers stuck to at most three-character-wide ops?
18:43:19 <boily> something ridiculensous, like ~+^.?
18:44:09 <boily> Haskell is the new perl.
18:44:14 <kmc> haskell is the gnu perl
18:44:16 <mnoqy> this isn't all of them, mind you. just a few
18:44:18 <mnoqy> there's a whole bunch
18:45:15 <boily> oui qu'où sue eux mou y coup ne?
18:45:46 <Roujo> boily: je ne même pas
18:46:12 <boily> Roujo: google translate is no help here. «Grebe manger corégone.»
18:46:46 <Roujo> Corégone is best gone
18:47:10 <fizzie> boily: That seems to have been mostly correct.
18:47:41 <boily> fizzie: the English version has “whitefish” replacing the «corégone», and the verb is correctly conjugated.
18:48:08 <metasepia> A grebe is a member of the Podicipediformes order, a widely distributed order of freshwater diving birds, some of which visit the sea when migrating and in winter.
18:48:13 <fizzie> Well, French-to-English "corégone" says "whitefish", too.
18:48:31 <boily> fizzie: I have a feeling it's a Traditional Old Finnish Proverb in Harmony with Nature or Something Like That.
18:48:39 <fizzie> No, it's just nonsense.
18:49:00 * boily slaps a humid salmon on fizzie
18:49:41 <fizzie> But fi:uikku -> grebe, fi:muikku -> vendace (which, I believe, is a kind of whitefish).
18:49:53 <fizzie> And of course they have that similarity.
18:50:31 <fizzie> And those birds do eat fish. I'm not a 100% on whether they eat that particular kind.
18:51:13 <boily> incidentally, whitefishes are a kind of salmonidæs.
18:51:36 <kmc> lake trout: no lake, no trout
18:52:07 * trout slaps kmc with a large salmon
18:52:19 <Roujo> You might want to get that nose checked, trout
18:53:03 <nooodl> > let (<+?.*<$>?@%?.*<$>) = const in 3 <+?.*<$>?@%?.*<$> 4
18:55:05 <kmc> the fungot am I reading
18:55:06 <fungot> kmc: shouldn't ghc substitute enough things at compile time it gives " fnord" in there, either.
18:56:42 <boily> myname: you didn't see that. your brain is playing tricks on your eyes. fnord. hth.
18:56:50 <fizzie> boily: Oh, incidentally, for ridiculous operators... XMonad.Layout.LayoutCombinators introduces *||*, **||*, ***||*, ****||*, ***||**, ****||***, ***||****, *||****, **||***, *||*** and *||**, plus all those with either //, | or / in place of the ||.
18:57:00 <myname> oh, how i missed that hth here all the time
18:57:22 <fizzie> boily: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/xmonad-contrib/0.11/doc/html/XMonad-Layout-LayoutCombinators.html
18:57:53 <boily> ascii operator art. well, I'll be damned.
18:57:53 <fizzie> The number of stars gives the ratio in which screen space is divided.
18:58:08 <boily> that is so wrong on so many levels.
18:58:31 <fizzie> (And || vs // is vertical/horizontal, and two-vs-one separator is draggable-or-not.)
18:58:42 <fizzie> (****||***) = combineTwo (dragPane Vertical 0.1 (4/7))
18:58:57 <boily> completely, utterly disgusting and horrendous.
18:59:11 <myname> but what if i want 5/13?
18:59:36 <fizzie> myname: Then you're outta luck, I'm afraid.
18:59:52 <boily> http://thecodelesscode.com/case/109
19:00:01 <myname> maybe i should introduce *****||********
19:01:07 <fizzie> boily: Also the <&&> and <||> in XMonad.ManageHook (part of the core XMonad) do (just barely) fill your "4+ punctuation" requirement.
19:01:37 <fizzie> ((<&&>) = liftM2 (&&), and the same for ||.)
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19:01:59 <boily> maybe I should put the threshold at 4.5 characters, as <&&> and <||> seem reasonable.
19:02:21 <boily> fizzie: ah, I correctly guessed their purpose. the applicative/monadic variant of && and ||.
19:03:07 <fizzie> boily: XMonad.Hooks.ManageHelpers comes with <==?, </=?, -->>, and -?>> too. (I think I've used that last one, which is why I remembered to go look for it.)
19:04:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:04:20 <boily> we have left fat arrow, left weird existential fat arrow, right lean prickly arrow, right questioning prickly arrow, and then we have myname's dangling arrow.
19:05:16 <myname> don't get me wrong, i really like haskell
19:06:44 <metasepia> A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished
19:06:44 <metasepia> from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others.
19:06:44 <metasepia> -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
19:07:17 -!- audioPhil has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.).
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19:12:29 <boily> hm. it's been a long time since I've asked the The Question to anybody. I feel... weird.
19:17:18 <boily> oh well... Roujo, what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
19:17:46 <Roujo> My script just didn't work TT_TT
19:18:20 <Roujo> I'd /nani you, but I've heard that *that* script somehow PMs everyone in the channel
19:19:01 <boily> if your script has that very interesting side-effect, maybe you could have a /hth >:)
19:20:01 <Roujo> [kornbluth.freenode.net][421] Roujo hth :Unknown command
19:20:03 <boily> Roujo: btw, could I get a real body weigh for your entry? I only have "403", without any unit.
19:20:35 <Roujo> 403: Forbidden? =P
19:21:23 * boily prods Roujo with an automated squirrel feeder
19:21:37 -!- conehead has joined.
19:21:42 <Roujo> More or less - it's been a while
19:27:16 <boily> I used a tanebvention with actual results.
19:31:21 -!- Bike has joined.
19:33:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bike: not found
19:33:58 <Roujo> We really should make it so that `run executes a random program if the correct one isn't found
19:35:38 <Bike> that way lies php
19:36:13 <HackEgo> PHP is preferred by 9 out of 10 idiots, and past elliott. Ask your GP today! [Website redacted]
19:36:27 <Bike> elliott: what really
19:36:35 <boily> elliott: do you certify randomizing unknown HackEgo commands will lead to PHP?
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19:37:16 <elliott> Bike: I started programming with PHP.
19:37:36 <Bike> i wonder if that's worse than starting with qbasic
19:37:37 <ais523> elliott: have you recovered?
19:37:38 <Bike> i'm thining yes
19:37:52 <elliott> qbasic is a pretty good way to start, I think
19:37:53 <boily> I started with GW-BASIC.
19:38:15 <Bike> it was nice how my normal windows system already had qbasic so i didn't have to deal with installing anything.
19:38:24 <ais523> I started with BBC Basic, unless you count pressing random keys in front of a Pascal interpreter when I was a baby
19:38:37 <ais523> compiler+IDE, not interp
19:38:45 <Bike> does windows have any built in ides nowadays?
19:38:50 <Bike> somebody, think of the children.
19:38:54 <Taneb> I started with Visual Basic 2005
19:39:23 <elliott> Bike: does powershell count?
19:39:35 <Bike> eh... i guess.
19:39:40 <Taneb> ais523, I sort of remember pressing random keys on my dad's computer when I was 3 or 4
19:39:46 <Taneb> Don't know what they would have done
19:39:55 <ais523> most likely, not a lot
19:40:05 <Roujo> I started with BASIC on a TRS-80 ^^
19:40:17 <Taneb> I was good at filling screens full of text manually
19:40:24 <Bike> if you want to talk about random keys i was trying to make a Frogger sequel in actionwhatever when i was like eight :p
19:40:38 <Roujo> Copying pages of code from books I got at the library
19:40:40 <Bike> have you ever seen animation of a plane crashing made by a child in ms paint
19:40:42 <Bike> good stuff imo
19:40:43 <Roujo> Somehow, that was fun ^^
19:43:17 <boily> Roujo: I still have mine, somewhere at my parents'.
19:45:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:47:03 <boily> oerjan: tell us about your childhood BASIC experiences.
19:49:14 <oerjan> well, like, my dad is a (now retired) telecom engineer, and way back he went on this BASIC course, i think.
19:49:47 <oerjan> so he brought back a BASIC textbook (in swedish)
19:50:04 <oerjan> which means that i actually learned basic before i ever used a computer.
19:50:56 <oerjan> i vaguely recall i even wrote a complex number calculator of sorts. iirc still without a computer.
19:51:09 <oerjan> i'm a bit unclear about that part.
19:53:07 <oerjan> at one point my dad brought home a printer with a modem, with which we connected to a computer server of the telecom service. this was my first hands on computer experience, i think. also BASIC.
19:53:29 <oerjan> or well, typewriter with a modem.
19:54:11 -!- itsy has joined.
19:54:26 <oerjan> and then i recall seeing an apple (2?) while on holiday visiting some friends of a friend of my mother. i think i made it display a norwegian flag. with BASIC.
19:56:02 <oerjan> a couple years later my dad bought an oric-1 computer, which i still should have in the storage in the basement of this building. also BASIC, which i played with for many years.
19:56:50 <oerjan> terrible interference with the television you connected it to, btw
19:57:44 <boily> you burned a norwegian flag onto some CRTs?
19:58:26 <oerjan> and cassette storage, which i basically never bothered with - i kept typing programs in fresh everytime. including a disassembler. i recall there was an assembly instruction reference in the manual, which was missing pages.
20:00:13 <ais523> oerjan: I was given a tutorial on writing asm for BBC microcomputers
20:00:19 <ais523> like, a big manual thing
20:00:19 <ais523> but not a reference manual
20:00:19 <ais523> it was basically just full of examples
20:00:20 <ais523> and finshed with a 16-bit divide
20:00:24 <ais523> yeah, BBC micro was 6502 too
20:01:46 <oerjan> (there were two cassettes with programs included, of which my cousin managed to destroy one with a magnet. the other was an adventure game named Zodiac, the cassette had a slow loading side and a fast loading side, the latter never worked.
20:03:32 <boily> I remember copying a blackjack game from a manual. I never had to see the colour version of it, since the only TV at my disposition at the time that worked with the TRS was an old black&white ~12" cube.
20:03:41 <oerjan> i assume it might have worked with a better cassette player.
20:06:27 <oerjan> i wrote mandelbrot in it, i recall.
20:08:02 <oerjan> after a while he bought an ibm pc. if it had basic i never found it. got turbo pascal and masm, though.
20:08:05 <ais523> btw, the mandelbrot set looks great with floating point rounding errors
20:08:16 <ais523> because the rounding errors look like little distorted mandelbrot sets of their own
20:09:24 <oerjan> ais523: well the real set also has little distorted mandelbrot sets in it. i even recall some seminary in complex analysis at the university explaining why.
20:09:45 <ais523> yeah but they're not entirely disconnected from it
20:09:49 <ais523> like the rounding errors are
20:10:19 <boily> ~duck little distorted madelbrot
20:10:26 <boily> ~duck little distorted mandelbrot
20:11:15 <oerjan> boily: i am not sure that is the technical term
20:12:35 <boily> ~duck technically correct little distorted mandelbrots
20:13:00 <boily> oerjan: wikipédia mentions a "distorted" in the article, but no explanation why.
20:13:11 <oerjan> ~duck the best kind of correct little distorted mandelbrots
20:14:41 <oerjan> wait, _google_ also has turned into https...
20:15:31 <oerjan> did google change or did IE itself change...
20:16:58 <elliott> google has defaulted to https for a while now, I think
20:17:13 <oerjan> perhaps everyone got so fed up with the NSA stuff they decided to turn all the websites as redirecting http to https
20:17:32 <elliott> http://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/making-search-more-secure.html
20:17:35 <oerjan> elliott: i haven't noticed before.
20:18:04 <elliott> the NSA stuff claims to be able to break SSL under at least some circumstances, I think?
20:18:07 <oerjan> elliott: that's if you're signed in. i don't have an account.
20:18:31 <Bike> break implementations of SSL, anyways
20:18:57 <oerjan> elliott: i just found it a bit weird that google and wikipedia changed at nearly the same time, afaict
20:19:11 <oerjan> (and only noticed because zzo38 commented on the latter)
20:19:25 <elliott> Wikipedia did it specifically because of the NSA, iirc
20:19:31 <Bike> the platonic ideal of ssl, that's still safe!!
20:19:45 <Bike> finally, shachaf is placated.
20:20:51 <Bike> what's the "eh" at
20:21:13 -!- iconmaster has joined.
20:21:49 <boily> Bike: why is shachaf placated?
20:21:51 <oerjan> Bike: he's just being canadian
20:21:52 <boily> `relcome iconmaster
20:21:55 <HackEgo> iconmaster: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:22:09 <Bike> boily: because whenever an http wikipedia link is posted he asks for https
20:22:11 <boily> oerjan: also this. I have a canadian quota to fulfill.
20:23:49 <ais523> hmm… the stereotypes of Canadians are quite similar to the stereotypes of Brits
20:24:26 <Bike> oh, shit, i just noticed "eh" as canadian.
20:25:26 <ais523> hmm… this reminds me of something bizarre I saw at a train station recently
20:25:30 <boily> ais523: Canadians are a mix of Brits, Irishmen and Scotsmen, with Ukrainians and probably just about any other nationality.
20:25:44 <ais523> that I'd have photographed and submitted to TDWTF if I thought of it at the time and owned a camera/cameraphone
20:25:52 <ais523> boily: so are Brits ;)
20:26:17 <boily> (and then we have ass-backwards members of the Provincial Government that put forth a stupid «Charte des Valeurs Québécoises».)
20:26:49 <ais523> basically, it was showing expected arrival times for trains
20:27:08 <ais523> including both 13:50 and 02:40
20:27:23 <ais523> some of those trains were like 12 hours 15 minutes late, predicted
20:27:36 <ais523> I can only assume there was some stupid mishap converting between 12h and 24h clocks
20:27:39 <boily> ais523: oh! mentioning Brits and locations and stuff, and then checking the File to see where you are from, it seems you still aren't in there.
20:27:50 <boily> ais523: so... what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
20:27:58 <ais523> I don't know my body weight
20:28:06 <Taneb> ais523, did you just mix 24 hour and 12 hour notations
20:28:06 <ais523> you can figure out the coordinates from my email address
20:28:12 <ais523> Taneb: no, the train station did
20:28:26 <Taneb> Oh that's much less aaaah
20:28:37 <ais523> I could interpret the 02:40 as 12 hour, but not with the times > 12:59 showing on the same board
20:28:45 <boily> ais523: [ais523] (~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523): (this is obviously not my real name)
20:28:57 <ais523> hmm, theory: the times were 12:50 and 01:40 in the 12 hour clock, UTC
20:29:04 <ais523> then it added 1 hour for daylight savings
20:29:10 <oerjan> boily: psst he's in birmingham, unless he's moved
20:29:29 <ais523> which is stupid, but not as stupid as most of the other possible explanations
20:29:52 <oerjan> it's come up often enough i don't consider it secret.
20:29:56 -!- S1 has joined.
20:30:53 <boily> oerjan: I'll put that as a temporary answer. I'm using advanced devious social techniques to extract his email from the Intarwebs.
20:31:31 <boily> techniques aka sending him an email through the Wiki.
20:31:57 <oerjan> you know that only works if he responds, right?
20:32:25 <boily> I know. I'm waiting for a kind response. it should come soon, no?
20:32:36 <oerjan> boily: alternate method, start playing agora
20:32:36 <Bike> boily just has to craft an email ais can't resist responding to
20:32:41 <ais523> boily: re your email: hi!
20:32:48 <Bike> wow ais is good at this
20:32:56 <Bike> you'll have to be more cleverer
20:33:07 <boily> darn. foiled again!
20:33:50 <Bike> "Dear AIS, I am a general from the deposed Quebec Republic. I need to transfer a few million quedollars out of the country and would like to transfer to you if possible to avoid suspicion. You will of course be paid greatly for this service..."
20:34:05 <oerjan> `run grep -i birmingham wisdom/*
20:34:33 * boily falls to the ground, laughing
20:34:35 <oerjan> our files are mysteriously missing all birmingham information. this can be no coincidence.
20:34:46 <ais523> yeah, that surprised me too
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20:35:45 * boily puts on some Agora (http://youtu.be/1l6LE2yCdQ0), wears a +3 nightgown of ais523-seduction, and whispers “Give me your coördinates...”
20:36:28 <oerjan> boily: i think you are misunderstanding. i mean that if you played agora, you'd get to see some actual emails from him.
20:36:41 <ais523> or if you just read the archives
20:36:56 <oerjan> well some forms of the archives hide the email address
20:38:23 <ais523> entirely, or just obfuscate it?
20:38:31 <ais523> they're more likely to hide the ais523 bit than the domain
20:38:50 <Bike> `pastelogs .ac.uk
20:38:55 <kmc> shachaf: in this thread I complain about #haskell in #rust and others respond by saying #rust can't have these problems because everyone is so nice!
20:38:59 <boily> a little grepping and whoising, I have Edgbaston.
20:39:45 <Bike> i wonder if you could hire a sociologist to determine a good way to make people in a dedicated group like #rust not be shits
20:39:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29526
20:39:52 <Bike> important research project possibilities imo
20:40:12 <Bike> well, that didn't work.
20:40:35 <Bike> well, except for all the "ais.*bham" in there i guess.
20:40:44 <Bike> well, well, well, well
20:40:59 <boily> Edgbaston is where the University of Birgmingham is.
20:41:03 <kmc> well people aren't being shits now
20:41:13 <kmc> in fact I don't think the problems of #haskell have manifested yet
20:41:23 <oerjan> ok that whois mention gave me an idea, which unfortunately doesn't work. ais523, the address you gave on the nethack4.org whois gives me grave doubts of your lawful goodness.
20:41:26 <kmc> but I brought them up as part of a conversation there, and now I kind of feel like I need to explain my view
20:41:36 <Bike> but i mean "we're nice" is a classically bad solution to those inevitabilities
20:41:37 <kmc> that you can't solve all community problems by being nice
20:41:43 <kmc> but I also have an axe to grind about #haskell so whatever
20:42:21 <oerjan> i suppose it does say it's obfuscated.
20:42:25 <boily> but #haskell can't be all bad. I mean, the /topic was defined by shachaf!
20:43:10 <kmc> it's tough because I think niceness is really lacking in tech communities and should be encouraged (see: linus torvalds is a dick)
20:43:14 <kmc> but it's not a panacea
20:43:51 <Fiora> kmc: it reminds me of a friend I had who used to hang around the gitp forums, she was explaining how like, the rules basically mandated niceness, so what trolls/jerks would do is try to get other people caught by the rules
20:43:56 <Fiora> while sticking to the letter
20:44:10 <itsy> Hi! Are the codu.org logs broken?
20:44:13 <Bike> Fiora: (guess exactly what happened on tvtropes)
20:44:31 <Fiora> (giant in the playground, apparently)
20:44:34 <kmc> I don't think #rust could avoid the "information only available on IRC" problem, anyway, because Rust is still changing so fast that there is literally no time to write everything down
20:44:36 <ais523> Fiora: actually there was an epic troll on the gitp forums today
20:44:36 <Bike> itsy: try the [text] link instead, i don't know what's up
20:44:47 <metasepia> The Order of the Stick From Left to Right: Belkar, Vaarsuvius, Elan, Haley, Durkon, and Roy.
20:45:10 <ais523> basically exploiting the tl;dr phenomenon to make a lot of people look stupid
20:45:36 <Bike> i actually raised a huge stink there once back when i cared 'cos a guy got banned for insulting someone who'd said something racist in a nice way for the thousandath time
20:45:51 <ais523> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302960 if anyone's interested
20:46:05 <ais523> read the first sentence, then scroll down to see all the people who didn't
20:46:09 <Bike> to this day, classicists skeeve me right the fuck out.
20:48:10 <Bike> which one is tarqin again? elan's dad?
20:48:47 <ais523> the joke is that he has a bunch of fans in the forum despite being obviously evil
20:49:29 <Bike> gitp is in a universe where "lawful good" is part of physics, you'd think that would discourage that sort of thing
20:50:03 <ais523> basically it's some sort of GitP versus TV Tropes war
20:50:15 <Bike> wow, please don't tell me any more about this.
20:50:44 <ais523> even though I find it hilarious, I'll stop
20:51:10 <Bike> so anyway how about those esolangs
20:51:22 <ais523> Bike: well I did Snowflake
20:51:36 <Bike> oh right i was reading that article before
20:52:51 <Bike> it's... kind of hard to understand
20:52:53 <kmc> GTA V comes out tomorrow
20:53:57 <boily> kmc: Montréal's been plastered with stupid ads recently for that game. mainly boobs.
20:54:21 <Bike> saints row is already parodying it, i guess
20:54:28 <kmc> i think that's been the case for years yeah
20:54:37 <Bike> i mean gta specifically
20:54:42 <kmc> I like boobs, but I might be ambivalent to negative about their use in advertising
20:54:51 <oerjan> it's an ais523 wall of text. i drifted off when it started explaining how the program modifies itself.
20:55:03 <Bike> yeah that was kind of my reaction too >_<
20:55:09 <Bike> hm, which reminds me
20:55:22 <ais523> I'm going to have to write an interp and a program, I guess
20:55:22 <Bike> ais523: is there any chance i could understand checkout if i made a little cpu on moy fpga
20:55:23 <elliott> if you think that's bad try http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout :P
20:55:29 <Bike> high five elliott
20:55:39 <ais523> elliott: hey, no fair, I can't keep Checkout straight either
20:55:54 <Bike> so i'm going to take that as a no
20:56:00 <ais523> whereas I have a pretty good intuitive understanding of Snowflake
20:56:32 <ais523> I think it might be clearer as two separate languages
20:56:40 <ais523> one that's just the original language
20:56:46 <ais523> and one that does the self-modification
20:57:01 <ais523> but basically, it's as complex as it is because I wanted the language to actually work
21:03:13 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:04:07 <Bike> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0550321311002938#aff019 academia is great
21:06:11 <boily> Bike: uhm. the page, it is borken.
21:07:06 <Bike> looks fine to me
21:07:13 <Bike> maybe your browser isn't prepared for this level of authorship
21:07:50 <kmc> is that averyone who worked on the LHC?
21:08:24 <kmc> I wonder if there's a paper about the classification of finite simple groups with a similarly long authors list
21:08:53 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATLAS_experiment sorta
21:09:23 <Bike> wikipedia says the finite simple groups paper only has a hundred authors. boring!
21:12:10 <boily> Bike: http://i.imgur.com/hYxPyaR.png
21:12:32 <Bike> does sciencedirect normall do that for you
21:13:34 <boily> the home page is fine. as soon as I search for something, it borkenifies itself.
21:15:13 <oerjan> maybe try that for screenreaders link?
21:16:44 <HackEgo> ghc: no input files \ Usage: For basic information, try the `--help' option.
21:17:24 <oerjan> `run ghc -e 'putStr "Hi!"'
21:18:17 <boily> `run ghc -e 'print [1..]'
21:18:21 <HackEgo> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,112,113,11
21:19:29 <kmc> probably not
21:19:37 <oerjan> `run ghc -e 'let s = show s in s'
21:19:43 <HackEgo> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
21:21:35 <shachaf> i can't make up my mind about being in this channel now
21:23:21 <Bike> i'd like to point out that I, Bike, am here
21:24:53 <shachaf> yes but you're also in #lisp
21:25:04 <Bike> oh snap......................
21:31:18 <shachaf> and you used to be #haskell "not anymore????"
21:31:34 <Bike> i was there for like five minutes
21:31:38 <shachaf> my sister is a big fan of the gitp forums it turns out
21:32:30 <kmc> whenever Bike is not in the room, all of the other characters should be asking "Where's Bike?"
21:32:35 <boily> Bike: seems like #lisp is a nice place. «ARGH ELISP».
21:32:46 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:34:11 <Bike> boily: there is a pretty sad amount of smug vapid complaints about other languages, but i've seen that in every other language channel i've been in too so *shrug*
21:34:45 <shachaf> the really advanced language channels have smug vapid complaints about their own language too
21:35:02 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:35:17 <Bike> i should just join ###biology and part all other channels
21:35:57 <oerjan> > concat $ fix (map (('(':).(++')').concat) . inits)
21:35:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
21:36:46 <Bike> > concat $ fix (map (('(':).(++")").concat).inits)
21:36:46 <lambdabot> "()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()((...
21:37:02 <shachaf> and it even allows people to join it, strangely enough
21:38:46 <Bike> > iterate ('(':).(++")")) ""
21:38:47 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: parse error on input `)'
21:39:06 <Bike> well, whatever, then.
21:39:24 <oerjan> that's not the same thing though
21:39:27 <kmc> Bike: your lisp joke is so highbrow
21:39:45 <kmc> or maybe it's oerjan's
21:39:45 <Bike> oh is that what oerjan was doing
21:39:49 <Bike> i just wanted to see if i could fix it, lol
21:40:00 <boily> > concat $ fix (map (('0':).(++"1").concat).inits)
21:40:01 <lambdabot> "01001100100111001001100100111100100110010011100100110010011111001001100100...
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21:40:13 <kmc> which sequence is that
21:40:35 <Bike> the boily sequence
21:40:38 <boily> https://twitter.com/Haynes1980/status/291958991704178688
21:42:01 <boily> http://bbs.emath.ac.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=386 ← longer sequence subset, which has exactly 1 hit on google.
21:42:48 <boily> I don't know what “你厉害 0100110010011100100110010011110010011001001,,,” means, but it seems the Chinese people are onto something...
21:44:02 <oerjan> chinese children, even
21:46:05 <boily> anyone who speaks one of the Chinese languages in this fine chännel?
21:46:06 <oerjan> btw if you're wondering it's essentially a list of von neumann numerals
21:46:14 <boily> ~duck von neumann numeral
21:46:30 <oerjan> metasepia: you really should know that
21:46:48 <boily> ~duck von neumann ordinal
21:46:52 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:47:06 <boily> Bike died both from here and #lisp.
21:47:26 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_number#Von_Neumann_definition_of_ordinals
21:47:28 -!- Bike has joined.
21:48:36 <boily> oerjan: can't parse that. the mathematese is too heavy.
21:49:32 <oerjan> boily: 0 = {}, 1 = {0}, 2 = {0,1}, 3 = {0,1,2} , ...
21:50:29 <oerjan> then remove the commas and turn braces into parens
21:50:53 <boily> then it becomes underload programs!
21:51:20 <oerjan> ^ul (())(:~:S:a*~:^):^
21:51:20 <fungot> :~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S ...too much output!
21:51:33 <fungot> ()()(())()(())(()(()))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(()) ...too much output!
21:53:09 <boily> the people on #lisp seem to have a cheeky markovian bot too. fungot, how do you feel about that?
21:53:44 <fungot> ()()(())()(())(()(()))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(()) ...too much output!
21:54:18 <fungot> (())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(( ...too much output!
21:54:29 <boily> Bike: I see what yeta did there.
21:55:36 <Bike> it's nice to know your bosomed
21:55:39 <Bike> whatever that means
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21:55:51 <boily> well... I'm feminine.
21:55:56 <fungot> ()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(()) ...too much output!
21:56:40 <boily> oerjan managed to von neumann the von neumann while he von neumanned in a von neumann.
21:57:49 <oerjan> which proves that von neumann was a smurf.
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22:16:03 <HackEgo> Yonkie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:18:04 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
22:18:47 <Fiora> oh. I missed the earlier one :/
22:18:58 <Bike> this incident will be reported
22:21:35 <ais523> it has so many ridiculous quotes, and yet people pick that one
22:23:06 <olsner> I was surprised to find that it actually does report those incidents (if you e.g. configure outgoing mail), I got the report once
22:23:51 <ais523> yeah, I've got them too
22:24:03 <ais523> or at least, I found them just sitting in root's mailbox
22:24:16 <ais523> I don't get /why/ it reports them
22:24:26 <monotone> Well, you have to enable insults in order for sudo to give you the interesting messages.
22:24:31 <ais523> given how you could write a wrapper around sudo that makes your experiments go unreported
22:25:07 <olsner> hmm, wouldn't that be a bug in sudo?
22:25:10 <Bike> maybe anybody savvy enough to do that isn't going to fuck up sudo in the first place
22:25:35 <ais523> olsner: well people have found actual security bugs in sudo
22:25:49 <ais523> some way to get %n into a printf string was the most recent, I think
22:26:16 <kmc> how would yo uwrite that wrapper?
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22:27:33 <monotone> sudoers(5): "insults -- If set, sudo will insult users when they enter an incorrect password. This flag is off by default."
22:28:42 <monotone> ais523: I'd think the underlying authentication library would log and report the failure regardless.
22:28:53 <ais523> kmc: sudo -l "$@" && sudo "$@"
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22:31:04 <ais523> wow, this is mindbogglingly hard to test
22:31:16 <ais523> due to all my non-sudoers accounts not having passwords
22:32:49 <oerjan> you cannot test security because it's too good
22:35:09 <ais523> <randall munroe> I managed to lock up my copy of Mathematica several times on balloon-related differential equations, and subsequently got my IP address banned from Wolfram|Alpha for making too many requests.
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22:35:48 <ais523> I'm going to take this as evidence that Mathematica sucks ;)
22:36:52 <ais523> it's not /just/ my weird similar-but-not-identical-to-turing-machine automata that make its performance start really sucking
22:37:18 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/wkygDoR.png
22:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> to be fair it does seem pretty good for multimedia type things
22:38:02 <kmc> this must be those personalized google results I keep hearing about
22:38:10 <Bike> i get the same actually :D
22:38:15 <Bike> on image search, anyway
22:38:18 <ais523> Mathematica is good at things that were considered when writing it
22:38:22 <Bike> maybe you've just corrupted us all
22:38:27 <ais523> it's probably one of the first non-general-purpose programming languages
22:38:43 <ais523> basically it's just a really optimized, large, library
22:38:48 <ais523> containing lots of routines
22:38:49 <Bike> ais523: i've been complaining about matlab elsewhere. am i allowed to feel solidarity with you
22:39:04 <ais523> Bike: oh, matlab sucks in entirely different and unrelate ways
22:39:11 <Bike> way to cheer me up!
22:39:31 <ais523> I had to do a project with it, because that's what the lecturer requested
22:39:49 <ais523> and it was really hard to write the report in a way that covered up the arithmetic errors
22:39:57 <ais523> (which I think were the result of stack smashing or something like that)
22:40:02 <Bike> so far i've learned that the "ones" function, that is described as just returning an array of ones, has over nine different calling conventions, several of which involves literal strings
22:40:06 <ais523> (because it often crashed rather than getting the values wrong)
22:40:52 <mnoqy> i've heard bad things about matlab, like these things you're saying just now.
22:41:02 <boily> GHARGH! WHY MUST YOU BE FAILING ME NOW! all I want is /r/nosleep's top submissions for the past month!
22:41:30 <Bike> (also a hit from the same course: "spnet.cpp - C program to [...]")
22:41:30 <ais523> mnoqy: I've got it to dump Java stack traces to the console
22:41:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i did about one exercise in it; that was enough to convince me that i never wanted to use it again
22:41:41 <Bike> source*, interesting typo
22:45:00 <lambdabot> Ix i => (i, i) -> [e] -> Array i e
22:45:32 <oerjan> > listArray ((-1,-1),(1,1)) $ repeat 1
22:45:33 <lambdabot> array ((-1,-1),(1,1)) [((-1,-1),1),((-1,0),1),((-1,1),1),((0,-1),1),((0,0),...
22:46:27 <Bike> well can you write a function that can return either an array of int8 1s or double 1s!!
22:49:06 <oerjan> > let ones = listArray ((-1,-1),(1,1)) $ repeat 1; ones :: Num n => Array (Int,Int) n in (ones :: Array (Int,Int) Int8, ones :: Array (Int,Int) Double)
22:49:07 <lambdabot> (array ((-1,-1),(1,1)) [((-1,-1),1),((-1,0),1),((-1,1),1),((0,-1),1),((0,0)...
22:49:46 <Bike> uh i meant like «ones ((-1,-1),(1,1)) "Int8"» obviously
22:49:48 <Bike> you're failing me dude
22:50:10 <oerjan> sorry, no dependent typing
22:50:22 <Bike> so matlab is dependently typed
22:50:24 <Bike> haskell is inferior.
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22:51:45 <boily> time to disappear in the Great Coldish Outside, while Bike sputters heresies.
22:52:00 <Bike> don't forget to bring your ix
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22:56:38 <Koen__> say I make a language that's essentially Thue but when you make a rule "original::=replacement", "original" is a regular expression, and "replacement" may contain "\0", "\1", etc., where \n means the substring that was matched by the nth group in the regular expression
22:56:53 <Koen__> is that too much redundant with an existing language or is it ok to make a page for it?
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23:05:31 <ais523> Koen__: it's not massively interesting
23:05:37 <ais523> it's like a wimpmode Thue
23:05:48 <ais523> or possibly a hardmode Thutu
23:10:30 <oerjan> also, i vaguely recall it's been made already?
23:12:12 -!- Bike has joined.
23:13:39 <oerjan> didn't Koen__ mention that earlier
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23:15:37 <Koen__> for some reason i've never read the rebel page
23:16:23 <Koen__> everytime I decide to read all pages in the category string-rewriting, I quickly end up with a huge tree of pages to read (half of which from wikipedia)
23:16:42 <Koen__> there are too many webpages in the internet
23:20:27 <Koen__> yup that's exactly the language I had been looking for
23:20:35 <Koen__> feeling less lonely now
23:33:50 <ion> A great idea emerged #elsewhere. Make an easier variant for kids of a certain well-known esoteric programming language, name it with s/brain/child/.
23:35:48 <mnoqy> that's a bad idea.
23:39:40 <kmc> great idea
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01:30:45 <Sgeo> Tcl makes me think of a wolf in sheep's clothing whereas Lisp is a wolf in wolf's clothing. Lisp, no one would try to modify someone else's code without trying to learn the language. Tcl, the language looks ... almost familiar, but if you don't know the language, there's a ton of things to screw up including possible security holes
01:31:08 <Sgeo> Tcl looks too inviting for how dangerous it is to try to write code without knowing the language
01:32:20 <Bike> i don't think i've ever seen a picture of a sheep wearing clothes
01:33:21 <kmc> Sgeo: interesting
01:37:47 <Bike> it seems like a lot of languages can get like that sometimes
01:37:53 <Bike> especially if they're "C-like" or whatever shit
01:38:26 <Sgeo> http://www.kocjan.org/tclmentor/5-why-double-evaluation-is-baaad.html
01:39:16 <Bike> oh, multiple evaluation is fun
01:42:20 <Sgeo> button $buttonname -command "puts $mymessage"
01:42:29 <Sgeo> button $buttonname -command [list puts $mymessage]
01:42:35 <Sgeo> http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.tcl/fmm.html
01:43:01 <Bike> homoiconicity useful, huh
01:44:29 <Sgeo> Err, are you trying to suggest Tcl isn't homoiconic?
01:45:07 <Bike> just commenting a bit on using a data structure (if a simple one) making more sense than a string, is all
01:45:44 <Sgeo> Well, a list is a string in Tcl.
01:46:01 <Sgeo> Just... the list command's the better way to construct that string
01:46:31 <Sgeo> What's annoying is that a script, several commands, isn't a simple Tcl structure like a list
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02:17:01 <Bike> okay, well, that's pretty weird.
02:18:34 <Sgeo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna_%28PRNG%29
02:18:42 <Sgeo> That's so incredibly easy for even me to understand
02:19:45 <Bike> it's kind of weird how 'family of' means 'parametrized'
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03:01:17 <kmc> Bike: http://unicode-inc.blogspot.com/2013/09/henry-luce-foundation-grant-to-unicode.html "Henry Luce Foundation Grant to Unicode in Support of Encoding Tangut"
03:01:50 <ion> Let’s form a foundation and give a grant to Unicode in support of encoding Klingon.
03:02:15 <Gregor> Cool, I didn't know you could throw money at Unicode to get a new language in!
03:02:35 <kmc> yeah me either!
03:03:07 <Gregor> But clearly we should choose hieroglyphs and hieratics.
03:03:15 <Bike> are they not in there already?
03:03:20 <kmc> it's times like these that I'm glad I follow the Unicode Consortium on Twitter
03:03:23 <kmc> Bike: nope
03:03:26 <Bike> huh, i forgot 'tangutology' was a thing
03:03:59 <lifthrasiir> Gregor: it's like determining how many glyphs can be considered as a character as per the Unicode standard
03:04:01 <Bike> sometimes it's hard to remember that china is actually at least as diverse as europe
03:04:23 <lifthrasiir> for historical scripts like Tangut, it does take lots of works and also money
03:04:27 <Bike> i think the only sort of that text i've triedd to read were some old coptic letters. they didn't render but by god they had characters
03:06:09 <Bike> Gregor: so is that just hieroglyphs or also hieratics?
03:06:30 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1jvnhb/maybe_a_dumb_question_regarding_the_documentary/ also what
03:12:51 <kmc> http://threewordphrase.com/hostage.htm
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03:30:04 <Sgeo> http://www.ibtimes.com/firefox-vs-chrome-mozilla-takes-top-honors-latest-web-browser-grand-prix-1330329
03:30:10 <Sgeo> It was in the nonperformance categories like memory efficiency, reliability, security and standards conformance that Firefox was really able to shine.
03:30:17 <Sgeo> Firefox? Memory efficient?
03:37:06 <Sgeo> "I just downloaded this because you said my current browser did not support my Google+ account; just to read you are retiring it! Then why did you offer it at all for downloading? I hope there will be suggestions by Jan 2014 what browser does support Google+!"
03:37:10 <Sgeo> [about Chrome Frame]
04:20:40 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah it's almost like when one browser gets better at something, the other manufacturers work to catch up
04:24:56 <Bike> #define rand01 (0.9999999*double(rand())/RAND_MAX)
04:28:19 <kmc> Sgeo: I use Firefox at work and Chrome at home and I don't notice a performance difference anymore
04:28:23 <kmc> but the work machine is pretty beefy
04:28:34 <kmc> Chrome is still markedly better than Firefox on my pathetic pre-Atom netbook
04:50:25 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
04:57:03 <Bike> «fscanf( stream, "%d", &dd); post[i][j]=dd; fscanf( stream, "%f", &x); s[i][j]=x; fscanf( stream, "%f", &x); sd[i][j]=x;»
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05:03:03 <litrink> How could you crack/attack this vignere cipher? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=LdWfKLtP
05:04:26 <lifthrasiir> litrink: do you know the characteristics of plaintext?
05:06:10 <litrink> The hint I received was that the cipher was described in a book from 1553 La cifra del
05:13:13 <kmc> this again
05:14:05 <Bike> i'd like to note that my algorithm is constant time
05:14:38 <Bike> hiring djb to do it for me
05:16:09 <kmc> so this person is daakl / sdile / dlackili / sardig / mafingre / xantrixo / etc yes?
05:16:17 <kmc> and therefore evading bans
05:16:23 <kmc> I think we got tired of your act a while ago
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05:21:56 <Bike> shoulda had "whatever" as the kick reason
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08:17:55 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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09:41:36 <fizzie> "Jura [a fancy coffee-grinding-and-brewing-machine in one of the department break rooms] is undergoing maintenance as of today. Coffee substitute (also known as regular coffee) is available during Jura's hopefully short absence."
09:41:45 <fizzie> Those people take their coffee very seriously.
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11:55:50 <ambiltrif> http://pastebin.com/L5da2KjQ I am making a tic tac toe game in C, How can this code/algorithm be made better?
11:55:55 <ambiltrif> Or can someone show me a better/alternative approach?
11:57:47 <Koen> btw you included stdlib.h but I don't think you're using it
11:58:46 <Koen> apparently you're deciding which player is at turn by looking at what symbol they put in the grid?
11:59:03 <oerjan> now i'm smelling mafingre too
11:59:22 <oerjan> except the ip is australian. but he may have learned.
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12:04:24 <oerjan> if you are him _and_ litrink, then you are getting hard to ban.
12:05:00 <oerjan> obviously banning all of freenode's web gateway is unacceptable.
12:10:16 <oerjan> damn i wish i'd seen this before.
12:11:08 <oerjan> also that some other relevant ops were actually not idle.
12:12:29 <Jafet> @let xo s=let[p,q]=(show=<<).(`elemIndices`filter(/='|')s)."XO";i(n,[])=":-"++["(|O"!!(n+1)];i(_,q)=c q."012|345|678"++if w q then" :-)"else"";c q x|x=='|'='|'|elem x p='X'|elem x q='O'|True='.';w p=ap(==)(sort.intersect p)`any`words"012 345 678 036 147 258 048 246";n=first(0-);x a b p q|w p=(1,[])|w q=(-1,[])|True=z$(:p).(['0'..'8']\\union p q)where z[]=(0,[]);z m=foldr y a m;y p a|a<b=max a(fst.n$x(n b)(n a)q p,p)|True=a;in i$x(-1,[])(1,[])q p
12:12:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[Char]]'
12:12:31 <oerjan> ambiltrif: i'm wondering if you've been here before
12:12:34 <Koen> the name sounds like ambf
12:13:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9680
12:13:04 <ambiltrif> oerjan: I have been here once or twice
12:13:26 <oerjan> ambiltrif: under which nick?
12:14:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28152
12:14:34 <oerjan> ambiltrif: we're getting paranoid about a person coming in and trolling us with changing nicks
12:14:39 <Koen> that's a language
12:15:05 <oerjan> fine, that's proof enough.
12:15:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
12:15:14 -!- oerjan has kicked ambiltrif ambiltrif.
12:15:48 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +bprt #esoteric!*@*.
12:15:50 <Jafet> @let xo=let[p,q]=(show=<<).(`elemIndices`filter(/='|')s)<$>"XO";i(n,[])=":-"++["(|O"!!(n+1)];i(_,q)=c q<$>"012|345|678"++if w q then" :-)"else"";c q x|x=='|'='|'|elem x p='X'|elem x q='O'|True='.';w p=ap(==)(sort.intersect p)`any`words"012 345 678 036 147 258 048 246";n=first(0-);x a b p q|w p=(1,[])|w q=(-1,[])|True=z$(:p)<$>(['0'..'8']\\union p q)where z[]=(0,[]);z m=foldr y a m;y p a|a<b=max a(fst.n$x(n b)(n a)q p,p)|True=a;in i$x(-1,[])(1,[])q p
12:15:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `eval' failed with: Ambiguous infix expression
12:16:06 <Jafet> Why does lambdabot library keep changing
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12:27:40 <oerjan> fizzie: i hope i was not wrong in concluding ambiltrif was another mafingre etc. troll nick, but combined with the lintril earlier today the style seems extremely similar.
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12:31:45 <oerjan> oh hm that was the wrong syntax, sheesh
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12:34:19 <Koen> oerjan: how's he a troll? he was just asking a question about tictactoe :(
12:35:12 <fizzie> Koen: Also spamming the same question to all manner of unrelated channels.
12:35:17 <oerjan> Koen: he's identical to someone who has been trolling before, with stupid off topic stuff.
12:35:44 <fizzie> At least ##asm of the channels I'm on.
12:35:46 <oerjan> fizzie: oh did you see it in other channels? it would really help if people _told_ me this stuff as i'm only in a couple.
12:36:15 <oerjan> good. nails the evidence completely, then.
12:37:53 <Jafet> @let xo s=let[p,q]=map((show=<<).(`elemIndices`filter(/='|')s))"XO";i(n,[])=":-"++["(|O"!!(n+1)];i(_,q)=map(c q)"012|345|678"++if w q then" :-)"else"";c q x|x=='|'='|'|elem x p='X'|elem x q='O'|True='.';w p=ap(==)(sort.intersect p)`any`words"012 345 678 036 147 258 048 246";n=first(0-);x a b p q|w p=(1,[])|w q=(-1,[])|True=z$map(:p)(['0'..'8']\\union p q)where z[]=(0,[]);z m=foldr y a m;y p a|a<b=max a(fst.n$x(n b)(n a)q p,p)|True=a;in i$x(-1,[])(1,[])q
12:37:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(Int, [Char])'
12:38:00 <oerjan> Koen: also it doesn't matter how innocuous the question is if he's already banned here, the evasion is re-bannable in itself.
12:38:07 <Jafet> @let xo s=let[p,q]=map((show=<<).(`elemIndices`filter(/='|')s))"XO";i(n,[])=":-"++["(|O"!!(n+1)];i(_,q)=map(c q)"012|345|678";c q x|x=='|'='|'|elem x p='X'|elem x q='O'|True='.';w p=ap(==)(sort.intersect p)`any`words"012 345 678 036 147 258 048 246";n=first(0-);x a b p q|w p=(1,[])|w q=(-1,[])|True=z$map(:p)(['0'..'8']\\union p q)where z[]=(0,[]);z m=foldr y a m;y p a|a<b=max a(fst.n$x(n b)(n a)q p,p)|True=a;in i$x(-1,[])(1,[])q p
12:38:24 <Jafet> > xo "...|.X.|..."
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12:52:42 <boily> good Linux for Workgroups morning!
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12:59:23 <boily> quintopia: quintohayō.
12:59:45 <boily> @tell fizzie What is a coyote?
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13:04:23 <lambdabot> *** "coyote" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:04:23 <lambdabot> n 1: small wolf native to western North America [syn: {coyote},
13:04:23 <lambdabot> {prairie wolf}, {brush wolf}, {Canis latrans}]
13:04:23 <lambdabot> 2: someone who smuggles illegal immigrants into the United
13:04:44 <fizzie> (For some unknowable reason, it's the default quit message of bip.)
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13:05:25 <oerjan> bip bip obvious if you know
13:05:26 <boily> fizzie: wile e. coyote?
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13:07:51 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, for some reason I didn't realize it could have been named after that.
13:09:40 <oerjan> some unknowable reason
13:12:46 <Bike> so, my C is rusty and all, but you could write «fscanf( stream, "%f", &x); v[i]=x; fscanf( stream, "%f", &x); u[i]=x;» as «fscanf(stream,"%f%f",&(v[i]),&(u[i]))» or something, couldn't you?
13:13:38 <fizzie> Assuming the types of x and v[i]/u[i] are not different.
13:13:59 <boily> you can divide an array by an array in rust?
13:14:05 <fizzie> (The parens in &(v[i]) are also not strictly necessary.)
13:14:37 <fizzie> s/not different/all 'float'/.
13:14:38 <Bike> Hm, actually x is a float and v and u are double [arrays]
13:14:53 <Bike> what's the former do, then?
13:15:04 <fizzie> Reads a float, converts it to a double.
13:15:15 <Bike> could you do (float)&(v[i]) and so on?
13:15:16 <fizzie> You could make it "%lf", &v[i] to read a double directly, but it wouldn't be exactly same.
13:15:43 <fizzie> (float)&v[i] would be incredibly wrong, because it would try to convert the pointer to a float.
13:16:00 <Bike> though i'm guessing still no.
13:16:22 <fizzie> It would still write a float in an array of doubles.
13:16:36 <oerjan> a cast cannot change the underlying representation of the pointed to array
13:16:57 <fizzie> Reading it as double with "%lf" is arguably better (you don't have the accuracy loss of the float intermediary), but not an equivalent operation.
13:17:32 <fizzie> I suppose it's a judgement call whether the original author wrote it that way because he/she wanted the float semantics, or because he/she just didn't know about %lf.
13:18:08 <Bike> given this is the "C program" called .cpp i'm inclined to the latter
13:18:45 <Bike> plus there's similar code later but with %d and int.
13:19:03 <fizzie> In that case, fscanf(stream, "%lf%lf", &v[i], &u[i]) might be a reasonable replacement.
13:19:17 <fizzie> (I suppose there's no checking of return values either?)
13:19:42 <Bike> in what kind of application would you want it to go through float, anyway
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13:20:51 <fizzie> I can't think of an example other than "bug-compliant reimplementation of X", but that doesn't mean there isn't any.
13:21:09 <fizzie> Sometimes you might need exactly identical results.
13:21:36 <Bike> hm, well, thanks.
13:21:51 <Bike> (if you mean checking whether fscanf actually reads enough values then no)
13:26:39 <fizzie> I have audio files with transcripts where each line has one word along its start and end times. Now I'd need to inspect whether they are correct by some random listening. Do you happen to know of any useful software for this, and/or some easily-scriptable Python-or-something audio-playing library that'd make it easy to whip up code that, say, prints out the text one word at a time, sync'd with ...
13:27:45 <boily> gstreamer. strangely, the amount of effort to bootstrap a minimal audio player with it is very small.
13:29:28 <john_metcalf> Grrr... "To use this software you need to restart your computer"
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13:29:45 <fizzie> Mhm. I wonder if mplayer/vlc can display subtitles for audio files. It would be very simple to convert those files into .srt or something.
13:30:39 <fizzie> The "subtitle" menu seems to be grayed-out in vlc for a .wav. (But I suppose it would be reasonably simple to multiplex in a black screen.)
13:31:39 <boily> multiplexing seems to be the way, but mencoder is a pain in the fungot. can vlc be used for this kind of task?
13:31:40 <fungot> boily: any web page that lame is not to require heap in low memory. i think
13:32:34 <boily> there needs to be something as simple and straightforward as imagemagick's convert for scripted video authoring.
13:33:08 <fizzie> There's ffmpeg/avconv.
13:33:17 <boily> oh. didn't know about that.
13:33:41 <fizzie> You can (probably) use a single image as a single-frame "video" and have it loop the shorter file.
13:35:50 <fizzie> In fact, a plain avconv -i black.png -i sound.wav -acodec copy -vcodec mjpeg test.avi seems to have worked.
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13:40:37 <boily> fizzie: I suppose doing an s/avconv/ffmpeg/ will work too, as it seems I am still on the unforked side of the fforce.
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13:47:22 <fizzie> "SUB: Could not determine file format" grumble grumble.
13:47:33 <fizzie> VLC showed a subtitle track, but did not display anything.
13:48:10 <fizzie> I wonder if it's because there's only one video frame.
13:49:09 <fizzie> "video:5kB audio:546403kB" heh.
13:50:47 <boily> you need more black screens.
13:50:48 <fizzie> Ah, "avconv -loop 1 -i black.png ..." makes a more proper video.
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13:53:54 <fizzie> Yay, it works. And the alignment was reasonable, for the first minute.
13:54:45 <fizzie> cat out.txt | grep -v '^$' | grep -v '^#' | perl -ne 'BEGIN { binmode STDOUT, ":encoding(ISO-8859-1)"; binmode STDIN, ":utf8"; } chomp; ($s,$e,$t) = split; printf "%d\r\n%02d:%02d:%02d,%03d --> %02d:%02d:%02d,%03d\r\n%s\r\n\r\n", ++$idx, $s/3600, ($s/60)%60, $s%60, ($s*1000)%1000, $e/3600, ($e/60)%60, $e%60, ($e*1000)%1000, $t;' > out.srt
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13:56:53 <boily> that is disgusting. you could have replaced the cat|grep|grep with «grep -Ev '^$|^#' out.txt».
13:57:58 <boily> otherwise, the perl is... well, it's perl.
13:58:54 <boily> (urgh. I'm being corrupted by my sysadmin coworkers...)
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14:16:05 <Roujo> boily: Well, you know what they say...
14:17:46 <boily> Roujo: they say not to do stupid things to the poor machines, or else your disk quota will be reduced and your VMs crippled.
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15:04:48 <boily> random Haskell question: why should datatype fields be strict?
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15:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-06-molydeux-one-of-the-reasons-molyneux-left-microsoft
15:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if molyneux realises he's become a parody of himself
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15:16:17 <boily> we had a bout of internationalised greetings a few hours ago.
15:17:16 <nooodl> boily: how do i greet someone in quebeckqcqois
15:17:38 <nooodl> oops forgot my accents: québèckqçqöis
15:18:24 <boily> nooodl: same as in standard French. happens that we still haven't butchered greetings yet...
15:18:47 <boily> (and I'll have to remember that créatif spelling of québèckqçqöis.)
15:19:47 <boily> nooodl: well. you have «comment va?», between people from Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean. otherwise, the province-wide «pis, à part de tsa?» is another clasic.
15:20:35 <boily> but they are neither very close to «bonjour» and «bon matin».
15:26:12 <fizzie> I generally don't bother to optimize one-off command lines, but instead write them the way I think them.
15:26:36 <fizzie> Anyway, I could've obviously replaced both greps with the perl.
15:29:17 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor.
15:30:20 <boily> I ought to learn basic Estonian. it looks like it sounds good.
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16:12:04 <Taneb> Aaaah I have a dwarf fortress badge
16:12:08 <Taneb> And I don't quite know how
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16:24:11 <Taneb> You know, design attached to a safety pin type thing
16:25:10 <Taneb> On my bedroom floor
16:27:44 <Taneb> I'm not in York yet
16:27:52 <Taneb> Term starts stupid late
16:29:20 <Bike> what, really? it's practically october.
16:29:42 <Koen> term starts mid-november here
16:30:22 <Bike> also hey your underscores are gone
16:30:43 <Koen> TIME TO REGISTER
16:30:47 <Koen> thank you for telling me
16:31:09 <Bike> one of many lovely services i provide
16:31:18 <Koen> NickServ: Koen is already registered.
16:31:38 <Koen> time to never log out and hope I don't get ghosted
16:47:06 -!- DzieFull has changed nick to FreeFull.
16:48:26 <fizzie> "Last seen : Sep 17 06:09:05 2013 (10 hours, 39 minutes, 0 seconds ago)" it's not even an inactive account.
16:55:12 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: well... there may be that... >_>...
16:55:19 <Koen> fizzie: he's usually ALWAYS connected
16:55:29 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
16:55:50 <Koen> and by connected I mean logged in
16:59:57 <elliott> 12:59:22 <oerjan> except the ip is australian. but he may have learned.
17:00:11 <elliott> @tell oerjan mafingre is always australian. but different ISPs (sometimes mobile broadband, sometimes university, it seems)
17:00:58 <Bike> https://medium.com/weird-future/2acc5ba75929 very nice.
17:01:04 <elliott> @tell oerjan my suggestion is anyone who comes in on webchat with an australian IP and links to pastebin.com, it's almost certainly them. if they evade the question of whether it is then you can discard any remaining doubts
17:01:16 <elliott> @tell oerjan also I really wish they'd go away, it's not very fun any more.
17:01:24 <Bike> The roots of this division are sadly rooted in humanity’s pre-history. On the plains of our ancestors, male hunters roamed the savannah, chasing down prey, while women remained home to nurture families and gather berries. The males adapted for big movements and fast action, while the women adapted for slow, methodical searching. The traits that made women expert bug-huntresses in the dust have carried forward and given them an advantage a
17:02:03 <elliott> @tell oerjan oh and the IPs have geolocated to both Perth and Victoria, seemingly moreso the latter. so there may be proxying going on, or maybe Australian internet is just weird.
17:04:05 <boily> elliott: are you discussing the ion lickers?
17:04:09 <boily> Bike: what is that blog???
17:04:20 <elliott> no, the challenge-givers :P
17:04:28 <elliott> the licker gave up quickly, it seems.
17:05:26 <boily> and I have a slight little itty-bitty technical problem with metasepia. I registered the account with a randomly generated 14-char password.
17:05:35 <boily> (a password I have completely forgot.)
17:06:21 <Bike> boily: looks like they have no about page..
17:06:55 <Bike> https://medium.com/weird-future/4927989f3ecd i'm thinking it's a good one, though ("Six Radical Life-Extension Technologies for Transhumanist Consideration")
17:14:28 <elliott> boily: extract it from the binary?
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17:19:00 <fizzie> fungot: Do you remember your account password at all?
17:19:01 <fungot> fizzie: what's quack? i dont see a specific use of it, i'm afraid
17:28:25 <boily> elliott: it's not used from metasepia, it's just the freenode account I created afterwards...
17:28:54 <boily> think I can tell the guys at FN to reset the password for me, once I put the code on github and proove some legitimacy?
17:37:07 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:37:27 <salparot__> hmm, FN is the swedish acronym (abbreviation? initialism?) for UN, so for a while there I thought you would try to get the UN to reset your password
17:38:09 <boily> salparot__: that could also work. also, were you `relcommed?
17:38:47 -!- salparot__ has changed nick to olsner.
17:39:37 * boily falls back in surprise
17:45:48 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:46:12 <boily> ah! someone I know!
17:47:28 <Taneb> Or should I say...
17:55:09 -!- audioPhil_ has joined.
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18:04:52 <fizzie> "bollo" would also be fine.
18:06:19 <Taneb> Streaming Dwarf Fortress @ 120x40 characters, telnet termcast.org
18:07:03 <myname> awesome, how is that done?
18:07:06 <Taneb> No I'm not, I messed up the init.txt
18:07:37 <boily> are you playing real-time at this very moment right now, or is it prerecorded?
18:07:38 <myname> what software is the streaming solution
18:07:48 <myname> i'd love doing something like that myself
18:08:05 -!- audioPhil_ has changed nick to audioPhil.
18:08:24 -!- audioPhil has quit (Changing host).
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18:10:48 <Koen> there appears to be some kind of ascii game playing itself in my console but I've got no idea what is going on
18:11:37 <myname> you don't know the great game dwarf fortress?
18:12:03 <boily> DCSS is better than dwarf fortress :D
18:12:19 <myname> it's the most complex and genious game i ever played
18:12:31 <olsner> Koen: it's not playing itself, I think Taneb is playing it
18:12:32 <myname> boily: i didn't got the hang of it, but it's hilarious
18:13:15 <myname> also, i find cataclysm really interesting
18:13:34 <boily> myname: which one? DCSS or DF?
18:15:20 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:15:42 <elliott> DF is way better than DCSS
18:15:58 <elliott> Taneb: "oh no is he making danger rooms..."
18:16:16 <myname> elliott: did you try cataclysm dda?
18:16:19 <Taneb> elliott, no I'm making a cunning trap
18:16:38 <elliott> I've played cataclysm but not the fork
18:16:56 <boily> Taneb: your dwarves have oddly turkic names...
18:17:18 <boily> (with bits of Hungarian thrown in for good measure)
18:26:15 <fizzie> boily: Continuing from yesterday, a search over the Cabal Hoogle database locates the following >3 character operators: http://sprunge.us/PfCe
18:26:24 <fizzie> ^#->#? seems like a good one.
18:26:38 <fizzie> (Possibly I should try getting the packages in the above list.)
18:29:14 <boily> I feel watched by <<..>> ...
18:31:34 <boily> :$#$#$#: is a joke, right?
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18:34:37 <fizzie> boily: http://sprunge.us/bSiZ
18:35:06 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: might be misattributed, based on just looking at a previous "^module (.*)" line.)
18:36:31 <fizzie> And :$#$#$#: is indeed in http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/she/0.4/doc/html/ShePrelude.html#t::-36--35--36--35--36--35-:
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18:38:04 <fizzie> Data.Composition has a kind of a cadddr thing going on there.
18:38:16 <boily> Control.Plumbers is pretty outrageous.
18:38:41 <fizzie> That's a many operators.
18:39:08 <fizzie> Oh, I seem to have messed up with commas in that new list, have to fix that.
18:41:08 <boily> NIB (http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/not-in-base/0.1.1/doc/html/NIB-Pointfree.html) provides some ingenious atrocities.
18:45:25 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/MOWM -- one more version, sorted firstly by length of operator (reversed), secondly by the module in question and thirdly by the operator string -- should keep related operators grouped better.
18:46:49 <fizzie> I like the +~--- and ---~+ of BioInf.RNAfold.
18:47:09 <boily> pages and pages of supermarioperators...
18:47:33 <myname> what is a supermarioperator?
18:47:50 <fizzie> Lens is pretty well represented too.
18:48:23 <boily> `learn supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
18:48:50 <shachaf> fizzie: is that a joke about lens and representability
18:49:14 <fizzie> It can be if you think a joke like that would make me look smart!
18:49:18 <fizzie> (But it wasn't, before.)
18:50:10 <boily> fungot: bro, do you even lens?
18:50:10 <fungot> boily: s/ had/ have/ the epiphany address bar.
18:50:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
18:52:13 <boily> the pdf is missing the last few quotes... I need to find an easy way to synch it with the repo...
18:52:36 <fizzie> boily: Also, the operator length distribution: http://sprunge.us/GFTH (doesn't merge identical ones, otherwise the '1' would be pretty lame)
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18:52:59 <fizzie> Ooh, I must also do a most-defined-operators thing.
18:53:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:54:53 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XhVd there you go.
18:56:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gUOX (all (!)s)
18:57:22 <boily> I guess <> comes from it not being defined in olden GHC distributions?
18:58:42 <boily> woah. holy uninputable unicode operators, batman!
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19:01:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12738
19:04:22 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:04:35 <Roujo> boily: Best idea ever: add git commit hooks to > and >>
19:05:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: git: not found
19:05:14 <Roujo> Can we install git on HackEgo?
19:05:29 <Bike> hackego uses hg, you horrible being
19:05:56 <boily> can we wrap HackEgo in git, then?
19:06:03 <Roujo> But it would be sooo easy to just push the new wisdom files to GitHub! =P
19:07:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:07:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:07:40 <Bike> Roujo: see: that
19:08:37 <Roujo> I'm just trying to think of a way to be able to push changes in wisdom/ to GitHub
19:08:44 <boily> Roujo: you have commit access to the wisdom repo.
19:08:52 <Roujo> boily: I know, thanks
19:09:12 <Roujo> I *could* just pull from HackEgo, then push to GitHub =P
19:09:17 <boily> Roujo: the sky is blue.
19:09:29 <Roujo> boily: I know, thanks =P
19:09:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:09:56 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `cat'
19:10:58 <Bike> what were you expecting
19:11:04 <boily> Roujo: calamari is delicious. gravity curves light. russia is the most translated wikipédia article. Phantom_Hoover likes the diæresis. fungot is weird.
19:11:09 <Roujo> For HackEgo to find my cat >_>
19:13:33 <Roujo> `complain wget'ing the quotes takes forever
19:13:35 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
19:14:13 <Roujo> `complain s/quotes/wisdom files/g
19:14:14 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
19:14:48 <Roujo> So I can't just download the quotes
19:15:05 <Roujo> And I'm not wget the whole filesystem just to update the quotes
19:15:18 <Roujo> s/(wget)/going to \1/g
19:15:40 <boily> Roujo: pull the hg.
19:15:50 <Roujo> boily: Instructions unclear - got cancer
19:16:51 <Roujo> On a more serious note, what would the URL be?
19:17:49 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:18:07 <Roujo> But do I just pull that?
19:18:45 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:19:07 <boily> Roujo: just a moment...
19:19:19 <Roujo> boily: I think I got it
19:19:58 <boily> Roujo: hg clone http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg the first time, hg pull in the project's root after.
19:20:40 <Roujo> Yeah, cloning right now
19:20:52 <Roujo> I just didn't think that that URL would be the correct one for a clone
19:23:29 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
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19:27:21 <Roujo> Error 500 on GitHub
19:28:00 <Roujo> boily: Is GitHub down for you?
19:28:24 <Roujo> https://twitter.com/githubstatus/status/380049976862461952
19:28:41 <boily> bon, maudit, encore une fois...
19:29:05 <Roujo> Juste comme j'allais réussir à commiter =P
19:32:25 <Roujo> Down for Maintenance, now
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19:36:36 <Roujo> `fetch https://github.com
19:36:38 <HackEgo> https://github.com/: \ 2013-09-17 19:36:37 ERROR 503: Service Temporarily Unavailable.
19:40:21 <boily> fungot: ♪ding♪! you have quotes!
19:40:21 <fungot> boily: but ep2 and ep3 are operationally equivalent in _this_ order of evaluation than has been wasted due to duplication? :)
19:40:43 <boily> fungot: yes, there is some slight duplication, but the order was preserved.
19:40:44 <fungot> boily: since in this way. if after a decrement a number equals 127 then an answer reversal byte is toggled. it has parts.
19:41:17 <boily> fungot: can't remember if you had quote 128 (which is decremented). you still have 72 shiny featured quotes in your name!
19:41:19 <Bike> ain't that the truth.
19:42:55 <Roujo> boily: boily: boily: it worked!
19:43:52 <Roujo> Check the reposotory ^^
19:44:07 <HackEgo> Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d’ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
19:44:20 <boily> Roujo: got an e-mail celebrating that!
19:44:33 <Roujo> `echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d’ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:44:35 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d’ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:44:52 <Roujo> What did I destroy now
19:45:03 <Roujo> `echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:05 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:20 <Roujo> `run echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:21 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
19:45:31 <Roujo> `run echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. \(Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.\) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:32 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:45:38 <Roujo> `run echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. \(Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.\) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:40 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez
19:45:51 <Roujo> `run echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. \(Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez \#esoteric sur irc.dal.net.\) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:46:02 <Roujo> `run cat wisdom/bienvenue
19:46:03 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
19:50:44 <Roujo> boily: Alright, automated that with a nice script
19:53:23 <Roujo> boily: So yeah, it's done. Every quote *should* be on GitHub now ^^
19:53:52 <Roujo> Wait. Not quote. Wisdom.
19:53:58 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
19:54:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access quotes/: Not a directory
19:54:33 <boily> Koen: who are you? I'd prefer having a nice learndb of you before adding your quotes to the PDF.
19:55:00 <kmc> `quote fungot
19:55:00 <fungot> kmc: you don't need to
19:55:01 <HackEgo> 505) <elliott_> now that we've cleared that up let us hug fungot = <fungot> elliott_: let's not start that again." \ 591) <Vorpal> anyway fungot is the only esolang irc bot I know of that doesn't depend on nethack or a similar helper \ 896) <oerjan> fungot knows all. <fungot> oerjan: you are correct. there's no freedom for free. \ 951) * fungot h
19:55:16 <boily> kmc: you can check fungot's collected quotes in the PDF now.
19:55:26 <boily> fungot: yes you do, you nimrod.
19:55:27 <fungot> boily: just dissolve the pills in your beverage of choice before hand. d:...
19:55:44 <boily> fungot: no need to poison me. you should be grateful!
19:55:44 <fungot> boily: wait, you probally did that already
19:55:48 <boily> fungot: yes I did.
19:55:49 <fungot> boily: i'm learning scheme. the vm binary fits in about 128k on some platforms.
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19:56:04 <boily> fungot: neat. I read the R5RS myself some time ago.
19:58:06 <Roujo> kmc: I think it's the one in the topic
19:59:10 <boily> Roujo: could you fix your git identity? it's showing up as = <=>. c'est pas beau.
19:59:22 <kmc> that's quite the document
20:00:56 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:02:18 <Roujo> I was sure I set that up =/
20:03:32 -!- S1 has joined.
20:03:42 <Roujo> git config --global user.name = Jonathan Rouillard
20:03:52 <Roujo> ^ This gives you three names: =, Jonathan and Rouillard
20:04:01 <Roujo> Can I fix this on GitHub? =/
20:04:20 <boily> for those commit already made? bad idea.
20:05:38 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed.
20:06:36 <Roujo> boily: In any case, it'll be fixed for the next comments
20:07:22 <myname> ttyrec seems not to work with curseofwar :(
20:07:25 <Koen> boily: eh, the last attempt to `learn me was dimmed too lazy
20:08:15 <boily> Koen: oh. I put a note from the Editor as a placeholder. hth.
20:10:54 <boily> any Channelder who dares to describe Koen?
20:11:26 <Koen> btw the new youtube buttons are aweful
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20:13:23 <S1> will I ever comprehend?
20:14:27 <S1> Uh sry I mean
20:14:33 <boily> S1: see the /topic ↑. read. peruse. grok. flabbergast.
20:14:59 <Roujo> Emphasis on "Flabbergast"
20:15:36 <boily> and I have this sudden urge to apply Dr. Oerjan's Patented Flyswatter on the espèce d'achigan de brochet de perchaude who added LaTeX to the DB.
20:17:17 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
20:17:25 <Roujo> That would be me =P
20:24:59 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:26:34 <fungot> olsner: people have done a bit of code comes with lol. it's even worse than www.gotahoe.com www.gotahoe.com
20:26:35 <HackEgo> 505) <elliott_> now that we've cleared that up let us hug fungot = <fungot> elliott_: let's not start that again."
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20:30:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 30m 33s ago: mafingre is always australian. but different ISPs (sometimes mobile broadband, sometimes university, it seems)
20:30:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 29m 41s ago: my suggestion is anyone who comes in on webchat with an australian IP and links to pastebin.com, it's almost certainly them. if they evade the question of whether it is
20:30:45 <lambdabot> then you can discard any remaining doubts
20:30:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 29m 29s ago: also I really wish they'd go away, it's not very fun any more.
20:30:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 28m 41s ago: oh and the IPs have geolocated to both Perth and Victoria, seemingly moreso the latter. so there may be proxying going on, or maybe Australian internet is just weird.
20:31:03 <elliott> now all those messages are in the logs twice :p
20:31:38 <oerjan> elliott: i think i confused him with hagb4rd and thought he was german-like
20:32:37 <oerjan> i guess that means he was possibly honest about not faking ip's when i talked with him
20:32:37 <kmc> how about I kick anyone who joins and immediately sends a pastebin link to some crypto puzzle
20:32:41 <kmc> regardless of IP etc
20:32:50 <kmc> they can go to ##crypto where it's Not My Problem
20:33:30 <oerjan> kmc: yeah that's the most obvious hint. but when i banned him he had only posted a programming thing (not esoteric)
20:33:41 <kmc> oh must have been a different incident then
20:33:54 <kmc> also I only kicked but they thought I banned them
20:33:55 <elliott> kmc: agreed with an exception for puzzles that are interesting in any way whatsoever
20:33:58 <oerjan> kmc: yes, he was on twice today.
20:34:13 <kmc> elliott: that would require me to, like, click the link
20:34:33 <boily> «cat *.tex | wc -l» → «5046».
20:35:16 <elliott> it's not like they'd even have gotten banned if they'd just kept giving stupid puzzles without doing the whole changing nicks and denying it's them thing. it's weird. like, what is the point other than to get banned?
20:35:23 <oerjan> elliott: anyway fizzie's pointing out that he's spamming _many_ channels is better proof, unfortunately i'm not on many channels so am not privy to that information unless people tell me
20:35:50 <elliott> oerjan: well I've already seen them give a challenge to #haskell.
20:36:05 <elliott> and then ask whether #esoteric is the right place for it when shachaf said #haskell wasn't.
20:36:09 <oerjan> but i considered my intuition good enough to ban him before fizzie said that.
20:36:32 <elliott> I suspect they migrated from ##crypto to #esoteric, guessing via the tunes.org logs because #haskell too?
20:36:34 <oerjan> elliott: well i'm not in #haskell. although i guess i do know where the logs are.
20:36:43 <kmc> yeah it's really hard to understand what they get out of this
20:37:26 <oerjan> anyway i tried to point out to him privately this time that ban evasion is good enough reason for re-banning.
20:37:45 <oerjan> (even if the original ban were unjust for some reason.)
20:38:17 <elliott> oerjan: I hear they've also ban-evaded in ##crypto, so I wouldn't bother
20:38:43 <oerjan> right, we just had a little chat.
20:38:52 <elliott> it's kind of weird for an ISP-hopping ban-evading nick-changing person to have a modus operandi as innocuous as just giving random challenges...
20:39:29 <oerjan> elliott: well with the crypto thing maybe he considers himself a H4XOR
20:39:38 <oerjan> and so does it just on principle
20:40:34 <Fiora> maybe like "I have to prove how much smarter/better I am by giving challenges that people can't solve and then showing off my smartness"
20:40:36 <oerjan> and the nick-changing, well, has anyone ever seen him use the same nick twice, i think it's autogenerated everytime he joins or something.
20:41:41 <oerjan> elliott: on the positive side, this time i managed to ban his actual freenode account which was nearly a year old. feels slightly more satisfying than whacking ip's.
20:42:19 <kmc> Fiora: yeah that happens a fair bit in ##crypto
20:42:24 <fizzie> I watched this "A Capella Science - Bohemian Gravity" video, and thought it was a fun even for a non-physicist.
20:42:41 <kmc> people come up with shitty cryptosystems then assert them to be unbreakable when nobody bothers to explain in detail why they're bad
20:42:48 <kmc> (or after arguing with all the explanations given)
20:42:54 <elliott> oerjan: have they really been identified all this time?
20:43:11 <shachaf> No, they're usually not identified.
20:43:13 <elliott> oerjan: that seems surprisingly amateur for someone who whipped out an EC2 instance to evade a ban :P
20:43:21 <elliott> (admittedly in the most transparent way possible)
20:44:31 <fizzie> oerjan: "many" might not deserve an underline, out of my (admittedly small) sampling it was just ##asm and ##c, on the latter of which it was even borderline topical (though ##c-basic would've been a better fit).
20:44:32 <oerjan> elliott: it is possible he just forgot it this time.
20:45:08 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe he had identified for the purposes of ##c or such, it's +r.
20:45:09 <oerjan> fizzie: well if it was really many he'd get klined and stuff right?
20:45:22 -!- S1 has left.
20:52:10 <oerjan> <boily> random Haskell question: why should datatype fields be strict? <-- it prevents space leaks due to large thunks building up.
20:53:14 <boily> oerjan: then shouldn't they be always strict by default? all those sudden «!» startle me.
20:53:49 <kmc> no because Haskell is a lazy language
20:54:04 <kmc> making stuff strict for performance is something to do carefully, not a panacea where you throw everywhere
20:54:12 <kmc> throw ! everywhere
20:54:14 <kmc> of course people do that anyway
20:54:28 <boily> so I have to think when coding Haskell? how outrageous!
20:54:32 <kmc> i know right
20:54:36 <elliott> the style guide that recommends putting !s on everything is misguided.
20:54:47 <elliott> especially putting ! on e.g. a list is incredibly pointless
20:54:47 <oerjan> boily: if the structure is only used incrementally, then thunks can be _less_ expensive.
20:54:53 <elliott> since you only force the outermost cons cell at most
20:54:54 <kmc> laziness is more efficient sometimes
20:54:59 <elliott> (assuming it's constructed in a normal way)
20:55:02 <oerjan> e.g. infinite lists would be impossible with strict fields.
20:55:04 <kmc> it can use asymptotically less space
20:55:07 <kmc> if stuff uses
20:55:18 <elliott> I leave fields lazy by default except when I have a strong intuition that they should be strict, e.g. the coordinates in a point type
20:55:18 <kmc> im doing a real good job of typing today
20:55:24 <oerjan> kmc: you don't even need fusing, just gc
20:56:57 <HackEgo> bash: svn: command not found
20:57:18 <HackEgo> bash: cvs: command not found
20:57:26 <oerjan> Roujo: HackEgo has hg, although only read accress to its own repository.
20:57:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because it doesn't really make sense to force them independently, or the constructor of the pair type separately from them
20:58:00 <elliott> especially since they're likely some flat (i.e. only ever either unevaluated or fully evaluated) integer type, there's no complex structure to delay
20:58:00 <boily> elliott: I didn't grind the Intuition Skill yet. all my XP went to boosting my understanding of monads, and I'm not even done with that yet (Cont is still giving me a headache).
20:58:05 <Roujo> oerjan: I know it has hg, I was just wondering if it also had svn
20:58:19 <shachaf> boily: Cont is the only one you need to understand!
20:58:26 <fizzie> At least it's got RCS.
20:58:36 <shachaf> newtype Codensity m a = Codensity { runCodensity :: forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b }
20:58:39 <boily> shachaf: that's the problem. I understand the rest, but that one warps my brain.
20:58:49 <oerjan> Roujo: i _suppose_ you could make another repository inside HackEgo. recursion!
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20:59:11 <boily> Roujo: de quossé que are you not bussing lately? like, hovercraft?
20:59:30 <Roujo> boily: Weird schedule. Full of eels. So yeah.
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21:01:31 <oerjan> boily: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/12/mother-of-all-monads.html
21:02:41 <oerjan> that'll explain what shachaf said, and possibly give you a hint about Cont as well.
21:02:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:03:24 <shachaf> Note that when he said Cont he really meant Codensity.
21:03:26 -!- augur has joined.
21:06:31 <boily> oerjan: I read that post multiple times. didn't work. I think I have a problem with «<-», as used in the Cont context.
21:06:41 <boily> shachaf: codensity shmensity.
21:07:34 -!- S1 has joined.
21:07:43 <shachaf> newtype Codensity m a = Codensity { runCodensity :: forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b }
21:07:46 <shachaf> (>>=) :: forall m. Monad m => m a -> forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b
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21:08:41 <boily> isn't codensity exactly like plain old monad?
21:09:08 <Roujo> tee-tee-ouaille-elle, #esoteric
21:09:19 <shachaf> One of them is a type class and one is a type.
21:11:58 <oerjan> Roujo: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAÀ
21:12:39 <oerjan> also, shouldn't it be ti-ti- or something
21:13:30 <oerjan> shachaf: i say just use reflection to convert
21:13:53 <boily> the Bilingual Spelled ティ ティ Why Elle strikes again.
21:14:14 <olsner> does fungot speak japanese?
21:14:15 <fungot> olsner: is it a draw with fnord to browse through some code that returned a procedure
21:14:59 <boily> fungot: 日本語は知っている？
21:14:59 <fungot> boily: nor is it for learning or for production?
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21:18:13 <shachaf> boily: Did you go through the usual exercises like writing out the Cont monad instance and stepping through some simple Cont code by hand?
21:19:20 -!- S1 has left.
21:20:26 <boily> shachaf: uhm. eeeeeh... >_>... partially?
21:21:21 <shachaf> @djinn ((((a -> r) -> r) -> r) -> r) -> (a -> r) -> r
21:22:25 <shachaf> Well, you might as well just use the library in that case.
21:23:02 <shachaf> I think there's value to stepping through it yourself when you don't have intuition for it.
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21:23:57 <shachaf> i heard that cool people implement Cont via the adjunction (-> r) -| (-> r)
21:24:51 * boily wildly flails around. “ADJUNCTIONS!”
21:24:59 <boily> the other thing that bugs me.
21:25:30 <boily> well. the second thing that leaves me in utter confusion. the third being lenses.
21:25:59 <shachaf> You can join #haskell-lens and I can talk about it later if you want.
21:26:36 <boily> my day is done, and I'm going to watch an English-subtitled Mandarin movie tonight. the lenses are punted to tomorrow for me.
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21:26:59 <shachaf> That's the hardest part of Cont.
21:27:09 <shachaf> You get the rest for free*!
21:27:22 <boily> I see what you mathematically did there.
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21:28:24 <Bike> "in serge lang’s complex analysis book, one of the exercises is to prove the non-trivial zeros of the zeta function have real part 1/2" good book
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21:31:57 <oerjan> always throw that in in case some student finds a simple proof everyone has missed.
21:33:04 <shachaf> @let type Cont' r a = (a -> r) -> r
21:33:26 <shachaf> @let return' :: a -> Cont' r a; return' x = ($ x)
21:33:48 <shachaf> @let fmap' :: (a -> b) -> Cont' r a -> Cont' r b; fmap' f = (. (. f))
21:34:06 <shachaf> @let join' :: Cont' r (Cont' r a) -> Cont' r a; join' = (. return')
21:34:59 <Bike> "Come up with a theory that unifies general relativity and quantum mechanics. Devise and perform experiments to prove it. (Hint: you may have to invent new mathematics to do this)"
21:36:51 <fizzie> TAOCP, which ranks exercises from 0 to 50, famously had Fermat's Last as one exercise ranked to 50, and then later a post-Wiles edition downgraded the ranking.
21:37:36 <Bike> funny, i just mentioned a [50] problem that got answered (elsewhere)
21:39:05 <Bike> wonder how many of those specifically have been solved
21:39:43 <fizzie> I think Fermat went from [M50] to [HM45].
21:40:14 <fizzie> Possibly the lack of a H was because you never know, it might turn out there's a simple proof.
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21:44:36 <HackEgo> olist (919): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
21:45:34 <shachaf> `run ln -s olist bin/oohlist
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21:58:43 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed.
21:59:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$/ He does not understand shell quoting./' wisdom/roujo
21:59:26 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
22:00:14 -!- augur has joined.
22:00:36 * oerjan doesn't understand it either, but not quite so blatantly.
22:01:15 <shachaf> no one likes join = (. return) :'(
22:01:53 <oerjan> that's not the usual definition, shachaf.
22:05:19 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, for Cont, of course.
22:06:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:07:26 <shachaf> And newtype noise makes it not work.
22:07:48 <shachaf> But the point is eta = eps = \x -> ($ x)
22:09:13 <oerjan> :t join :: Cont r (Cont r a) -> Cont r a
22:09:33 <lambdabot> Type synonym Cont' should have 2 arguments, but has been given none
22:09:33 <lambdabot> In a type in a GHCi command: Cont'
22:09:50 <oerjan> sheesh that is not helpful ghc
22:10:25 <oerjan> :t (. return) :: Cont' r (Cont' r a) -> Cont' r a
22:10:26 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `r' with `a -> r'
22:10:26 <lambdabot> `r' is a rigid type variable bound by
22:10:26 <lambdabot> an expression type signature: Cont' r (Cont' r a) -> Cont' r a
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22:12:15 <oerjan> oh i thought that was just -> stuff
22:12:23 <oerjan> :t (. return') :: Cont' r (Cont' r a) -> Cont' r a
22:13:06 <shachaf> @let halfmap :: (a -> b) -> (b -> r) -> (a -> r); halfmap = flip (.)
22:13:07 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
22:13:57 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/\\/\\end{verbatim} \\/' wisdom/latex
22:14:06 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
22:14:47 <kmc> is that a quine
22:15:09 <oerjan> kmc: i sincerely hope not^Wso
22:15:56 <Bike> presumably the point of this entry is basically to fuck with boily
22:17:38 <Bike> mention of backslashes
22:21:15 -!- jix has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:31:09 <kmc> it just looks quiney
22:31:49 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
22:32:04 <kmc> douglass found a LaTeX document that requires pdflatex to run four times to produce correct output
22:32:07 <kmc> not supposed to be possible
22:34:09 <Roujo> Bike: I can confirm that the point of `? LaTeX is to fuck with boily =P
22:37:25 <oerjan> kmc: what, is pdflatex supposed to be better than standard tex on converging?
22:41:57 <kmc> no, but I thought all the types of tex were supposed to converge after three runs
22:42:00 <kmc> maybe I was misinformed!
22:42:47 <oerjan> maybe i just didn't hear about it, i thought you could have loops and stuff
22:44:20 <oerjan> like, if things keep shuffling back and forth over page boundaries as cross references adapt to the previous version
22:45:23 <oerjan> it feels somewhat plausible that this could be made PSPACE-complete
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23:22:33 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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23:55:18 <Sgeo> `oohlist (919)
23:55:20 <HackEgo> oohlist (919): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
23:55:43 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have zero-width-space'd that
23:59:02 <Roujo> `unicode ZERO-WIDTH SPACE
23:59:04 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'ZERO-WIDTH SPACE'"
23:59:09 <Roujo> `unicode ZERO WIDTH SPACE
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00:47:41 <mad> trying to solve a hard problem
00:48:05 <Sgeo> I think my senses are out of sync when it comes to food
00:48:10 <Bike> hard problems are fun
00:48:23 <Sgeo> Steak smells great but tastes boring. Mac and cheese looks gross but tastes great
00:48:43 <mad> designing some sprite display hardware that can display lots of sprites with minimal registers and without having to load sprite data, write sprite data and then load data a 3rd time when the screen displays it
00:49:22 <Sgeo> Doesn't Kraft artifically color their cheese? Couldn't they color it something not gross?
00:49:52 <kmc> Sgeo: how are you cooking your steak
00:50:31 <kmc> anyway I think you should eat steak w/ mac and cheese
00:51:03 <mnoqy> i don't like kraft cheese.... i've had "home made" baked cheesy mac though and it's good
00:51:15 <Sgeo> Most of my steak related memories are from over a decade ago
00:51:37 <Sgeo> My mom cooked steak well-done, I think. I keep getting told that that's bad with steak
00:51:38 <kmc> mnoqy: yeah that stuff is great... with breadcrumbs on top?
00:51:46 <kmc> yeah, that'll cook all the flavor right out
00:51:52 <Bike> can i get a quick opinion on webdav
00:52:06 <kmc> I recommend medium rare with salt, pepper, garlic, herbs maybe (rosemary? dunno)
00:52:11 <kmc> you can put on steak sauce too
00:52:23 <kmc> Bike: that should solve your webdav problems
00:52:32 <mad> you could go through every sprite on every pixel
00:52:32 <Sgeo> I think I've had steak more recently, at Dave & Busters. The steak sause seemed to add all the flavoring
00:52:41 <mad> and then you'd have 0 overdraw
00:53:03 <mad> but then you'd totally bust your memory loading up sprite settings
00:54:42 <mad> you could store all your sprites as a bunch of line spans
00:54:55 <mad> and then write those spans to line span lists
00:55:07 <mad> then sort the list for each line
00:55:08 <kmc> Sgeo: if you want to get sciency, cook it sous vide
00:55:20 <kmc> then you can get it precisely medium rare with no cooking skill required
00:55:27 <kmc> also you save all of the juices and you can put them on potatoes
00:55:31 <mad> and then you'd have a perfect list telling you when the current graphic object switches for each line
00:55:48 <Sgeo> Can I get a restaurant to do it for me?
00:55:54 <mad> but then the problem is that you have to do 240 sorts of about 20 items
00:55:58 <kmc> yeah but they're also probably good at cooking steaks the normal way
00:56:00 <kmc> since it's their job
00:56:32 <mad> and it would probably be fast enough on a 32bit processor (actually some 3d renderes use that algo) but it would totally bust an 8bit one
00:56:53 <Sgeo> Is there still a risk of undercooking with sous vide?
00:57:09 <kmc> well if things go wrong yeah
00:57:18 <kmc> there's a risk of undercooking with any cooking technique if you don't do it right
00:57:22 <kmc> kind of axiomatically
00:57:36 <mad> you could loop through every sprite on every scanline and draw every sprite front to back and have a mask buffer
00:57:49 <mnoqy> burn it to a crisp. once it's a crisp you're probably safe.
00:58:05 <mad> and then you'd have more or less zero overdraw if you keep your transparency mask separate in 1bpp format
00:58:09 <kmc> the main things with sous vide would be make sure the water reaches the target temp, make sure the meat stays in long enough for all of it to reach the target temp, and make sure the bag is sufficiently empty of air that heat is conducted from the water
00:58:23 <kmc> it doesn't need to be a perfect vacuum seal though, I just use a ziploc bag and push the air out
00:58:29 <Sgeo> "Clostridium botulinum bacteria can grow in food in the absence of oxygen and produce the deadly botulinum toxin, so sous-vide cooking must be performed under carefully controlled conditions to avoid botulism poisoning."
00:58:51 <Sgeo> I think I'm scared
00:58:55 <mad> but then you need a buffer for the whole scanline... they had enough chip area for this in the 16bit era (tg16, genesis, snes, jaguar, lots of arcade hardware) but not in the 8bit era
00:59:03 <kmc> clostridium is the best genus
00:59:18 <kmc> botulism, tetanus, c. dificile, gas gangrene, and salt-rising bread
00:59:30 <Sgeo> I need a meat thermometer
00:59:43 <Bike> meat thermometers are nice to have.
00:59:46 <Sgeo> Preferably one that works with ready-to-eat meals
01:00:02 <Sgeo> Because I had one but it was too long for the little meat thingies in those
01:00:06 <kmc> why would a ready to eat need cooking for safety?
01:00:07 <Sgeo> Well, not ready-to-eat
01:00:21 <Sgeo> The microwavable things that say you need to check temperature for safety
01:00:28 <kmc> they say that cause they don't want to get sued
01:00:44 <kmc> if you don't have a compromised immune system then I wouldn't worry too much about this stuff
01:01:15 <kmc> that said I do seem to mind gastrointestinal upset less than most people
01:01:28 <mad> I don't think implementing hardware sorting on 8bit hardware is very realistic either :/
01:01:38 <kmc> I used 8bit hardware in my sous vide setup!
01:05:01 <kmc> well that killed both topics
01:07:00 <mad> kinda hard to do much better than the nes on 8bit hardware
01:07:08 <mad> except I guess the master system
01:07:32 <kmc> fuck yeah master system
01:07:37 <kmc> fuck yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snail_Maze
01:08:38 <Sgeo> "Macromedia Flash"
01:08:40 <Sgeo> Wow that's old
01:08:47 <Sgeo> Also broken link :(
01:08:51 <mad> it wasn't very popular here (Canada)
01:09:27 <kmc> it was very popular in my parents basement
01:09:33 <kmc> mainly cause I bought one from a kid at school for $5
01:09:36 <kmc> long after it was obsolete
01:09:57 <kmc> like the consoles I owned were a Sega Master System and then a PS2
01:11:23 * mad looks up SMS docs to try to guess if it had a scanline buffer
01:13:50 <Sgeo> I never owned any consoles
01:16:15 <mad> had a snes
01:16:50 <mad> still kindof amazing how much stuff they got out of that trash... goes to show that gfx and sfx hardware are the most important things
01:17:17 <mad> since those are pretty much the only things that were good on the snes
01:23:00 <mad> yeah ok SMS only supports 8 sprites per scanline
01:23:11 <mad> though they can be 16x16 I think
01:23:15 <mad> and 64 sprites total
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01:33:29 <mad> so it's probably NES style hardware
01:33:49 <mad> where it has 8 hardware sprite circuits
01:33:57 <mad> which it loads during HBLANK
01:34:17 <mad> then waits the right pixel and starts outputting
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01:38:21 <mad> the sprite table is in VRAM
01:38:31 <mad> every scanline it reads up the whole table
01:38:43 <mad> well, the wholy y position table
01:38:53 <mad> 64 sprites = 64 bytes
01:39:55 <mad> For comparison, the background tiles take 64bytes, and the background tile data takes 128bytes
01:41:11 <mad> and sprite data takes 64 bytes
01:45:52 <Sgeo> Is there something in the 'cheese' of Kraft's Mac and Cheese that stimulates hunger?
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01:52:49 <mad> hm, I was wrong
01:52:59 <mad> you only get 8x16 sprites
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02:06:34 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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02:19:52 <Bike> service unavailable, nice
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02:48:05 <kmc> Sgeo: I just cooked a steak with lots of salt, black pepper, rosemary, and sage, and it's delicious even though I accidentally made it medium if not medium-well
02:48:42 <Sgeo> Is it just the salt+black pepper+rosemary+sage that's delicious though, or does the steak contribute?
02:49:07 <kmc> steak contributes
02:49:14 <elliott> have you considered just putting the spices on a block of plastic and eating that, kmc
02:49:16 <kmc> salt is a flavor enhancer more than a flavor in itself
02:49:27 <kmc> it makes other flavors stronger
02:53:08 <Fiora> kmc: spices are amazing aren't they
02:53:13 <Fiora> I love just throwing more spices into things to make them better
02:53:24 <Fiora> like taking canned soup and tossing in chili oil and rosemary and things
02:54:29 <kmc> chili oil is a great thing to have around
02:54:38 <kmc> we have a live rosemary plant and a live sage plant on the porch :)
02:54:45 <kmc> I feel bad ripping off parts of their bodies but it's worth it
02:55:07 <CADD> kmc: plants dont have nerves :)
02:56:47 <CADD> my current favorite meal: wisk two eggs with a 1/2 cup milk. cube cheese, add to eggs, add cilantro, green onion, dijon mustard, and mushrooms. cut up bacon into pieces, fry in butter, add egg mixture to butter and bacon. cook and serve
02:56:59 <kmc> hell yes that sounds great
02:57:00 <Bike> kind of want kmc to just have an EEG hooked up to his plants all the time
02:57:15 <CADD> omg, ive been pretty much living off of it for the last couple of weeks
02:57:18 <CADD> and its soo good and cheap
02:58:20 <kmc> what kind of mushrooms
02:58:47 <CADD> kmc: crimini or portobello
02:59:02 <CADD> if i dont have those, then white button works too :)
02:59:13 <kmc> all of those are the same species :)
02:59:17 <kmc> mushrooms are great
02:59:26 <kmc> Agaricus bisporus
02:59:32 <CADD> huh, learn something new every day :)
02:59:46 <CADD> ever go on the micology subreddit?
02:59:53 <Bike> different morphs or what?
03:00:01 <kmc> portabello is the most mature form; the veil has broken and the gills are visible
03:00:12 <Bike> ah life cycles. the silent confuser
03:00:19 <Fiora> kmc: yeah, chili oil is just like.
03:00:20 <kmc> button mushrooms are an immature form where the edge of the cap is still attached to the stem by the veil
03:00:21 <Fiora> I can literally put it in anything
03:00:23 <Fiora> it's basically magic
03:00:26 <kmc> but you can still see the gills when you cut them open
03:00:37 <Fiora> pasta? chili oil. soup? chili oil. stew? chili oil. sauce? chili oil
03:00:48 <CADD> Fiora: sounds good
03:01:01 <Fiora> I might like spiciness
03:01:42 <CADD> i might like eating unborn babies..
03:02:02 <CADD> well actually more like ovary discharges..
03:02:04 <kmc> CADD: if you want to branch out mycologically speaking, you could use oyster mushrooms or shitake
03:02:05 <mnoqy> ??? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??????balut
03:02:08 <kmc> oysters are also the easiest to grow yourself
03:02:11 <CADD> elliott: see my comment above :)
03:02:33 <kmc> shiitake is not too hard to grow either
03:02:37 <Fiora> shiitake are soooo tasty
03:02:51 <CADD> kmc: ooo. that sounds good. we actually had a shiitake block growing in our kitchen for a while :)
03:03:01 <CADD> kmc: yeah, it was amazing
03:03:04 <kmc> CADD: I haven't been on the mycology subreddit
03:03:22 <kmc> my friend is more into mushrooms than me
03:03:25 <CADD> kmc: yeah, its great. and if you are into that kind of thing there is also /r/shroomers
03:03:32 <kmc> she's on the forums and stuff, I just help out here and there
03:03:55 <kmc> we live in norcal so we can just find psychedelic mushrooms growing outside :)
03:04:10 <kmc> there was a new species described from a specimen in Golden Gate Park a few years back :)
03:04:15 <CADD> omg, lucky! i live in socal. its pretty barren
03:04:20 <CADD> kmc: oh yeah, i think i heard about that
03:04:46 <kmc> what are you doing in socal
03:04:59 <CADD> ive hearf norcal has very nice climate. the only place ive been around in norcal is in SF.
03:05:04 <CADD> uh, i was born here. lol
03:05:10 <kmc> that's a reasonable excuse
03:05:21 <CADD> ill probably move up to SF or silicon valley if i get a job up there
03:05:29 <kmc> that's the thing to do
03:05:32 <CADD> which is kinda the plan :)
03:05:59 <kmc> the #esoteric center of gravity is shifting towards there
03:06:11 <CADD> where was it before?
03:06:21 <CADD> im guessing you guys meet up once in a while?
03:06:21 <kmc> atlantic ocean
03:06:33 <CADD> nice, must be great
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03:46:34 <Sgeo> I seem to be switching to foobar2000
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04:01:59 <Sgeo> Wonder if I can make foobar2000 look like WinAmp
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04:12:43 <Sgeo> "(Any Borg in Voyager doesn't count, and fortunately there was never any fifth Trek series... extrapolating from the downward trend in Voyager, any fifth series would have been abominably bad.)"
04:13:57 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8
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04:31:01 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xHK0m5hVyY
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05:54:50 <shachaf> kmc: do you ever find yourself checking the ips of people to see if they happen to be in australia
05:57:27 <ion> Good things about Australia: the beer. Bad things about Australia: Hitler.
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06:16:23 <HackEgo> 1018) <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
06:18:05 <olsner> shachaf: I'm not sure but this might help your keeping-eyes-open problem
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06:44:26 <olsner> @tell boily it would be nice if the quotes in the pdf had line breaks between peoples' lines
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08:43:32 <fizzie> "ICS Forum talk: Bounding rationality by computational complexity, Prof. Lance Fortnow"
08:43:36 <fizzie> These are always so fancy.
08:43:56 <fizzie> "This talk will explore a new direction bringing the rich tools of computational complexity into economic models, --"
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09:54:24 <oerjan> i guess that was to be expected.
09:54:37 <fungot> 62 32 226 128 139 226 128 139
09:55:35 <oerjan> > chr <$> [226,128,139]
09:55:51 <oerjan> > var $ chr <$> [226,128,139]
09:56:42 <oerjan> actually i'm wondering how one would make irssi produce a zero-width space.
09:57:34 <fizzie> I would think that it's a character that'd self-insert if you can just figure out how to type it.
09:57:48 <oerjan> yes, i just realized that.
09:58:22 <oerjan> but i have no idea how to type it without copying and pasting, and i don't know how to avoid having a character before it
09:59:03 <fizzie> Many systems have a Unicode hex input feature, but that depends.
09:59:12 <oerjan> hm maybe the delete key will do it from the beginning
10:00:10 <oerjan> i'm afraid getting it through putty and irssi will be hard, alt-<number> is reserved for changing windows.
10:00:27 <oerjan> i'm not even sure if that's what windows uses.
10:01:15 <fizzie> There's a thing for alt-(numpad + followed by hex) feature, but you need to enable a registry key for it. :p
10:01:54 <fizzie> That's "numpad '+'" in case it wasn't clear.
10:02:11 <fizzie> That seems to be correct.
10:02:17 <oerjan> fizzie: ooh, alt-numpad + decimal worked
10:02:47 <oerjan> what actually did was alt <numpad decimal>
10:03:10 <fizzie> Right. The <numpad +> prefix is for the "it's hex instead" thing.
10:06:49 <fizzie> rxvt-unicode lets you enter hex when holding ctrl+shift, and also has a funky infobox at the bottom-left corner showing what you have entered so far, what it looks like, and which font it's coming from.
10:07:53 <fizzie> (You can also poke existing characters on screen with your mouse when holding ctrl-shift and see what they're made of.)
10:09:19 <fizzie> The nasty thing about it is that if you press ctrl-shift and then release it without doing nothing, it goes in "keycap picture insert mode" which is supposed to insert whatever symbol is on the key, which I sometimes accidentally use to insert spurious ␣'s (what comes out of space) or whatnot.
10:09:50 <fizzie> (That was space-enter-del-insert-home-end-pageup-pagedown.)
10:10:45 <oerjan> itym square-square-square-square-square-square-square-square
10:11:00 <olsner> aah, that's the thing that I accidentally trigger all the time without knowing what keys I pressed
10:11:29 <fizzie> olsner: It's somewhat easy to accidentally add left-shift when poking at left-control.
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10:11:54 <fizzie> And there's no obvious way of getting out of it without inserting any character, because just about any key will insert *something*.
10:12:04 <oerjan> moreover, there are combinations i actually use, like ctrl-shift-t
10:12:29 <olsner> fizzie: press ctrl-shift again?
10:12:39 <fizzie> olsner: That inserts "⇧" here.
10:12:43 <oerjan> so if i change my mind in the middle of it... but then i don't have that feature.
10:14:08 <fizzie> Non-special keys like letters do cancel out of keycap picture insert mode, but cause a visual bell (flash).
10:14:59 <olsner> letters don't seem to flash/bell for me ... but maybe I've disabled visual bell too
10:15:22 <oerjan> send in bug report about it, describing the use case of having to avoid attracting velociraptors.
10:15:25 <fizzie> Also the "ISO 14755 mode" infobox does pop out during the regular application of shortcuts like that ctrl-shift-t, which can be irritating.
10:15:35 <oerjan> why did that a disappear.
10:16:31 <fizzie> oerjan: All this talk about special characters has gotten the attention of the character-eating sprites that lurk in dark corners of the internet.
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10:41:59 <oerjan> <CADD> kmc: plants dont have nerves :) <-- THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK
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11:13:23 <oerjan> <ion> Good things about Australia: the beer. Bad things about Australia: Hitler.
11:13:56 <oerjan> cloudy, with a chance of trolling.
11:14:26 <oerjan> mind you, the beer part might be true for all i know.
11:14:46 <oerjan> (i've heard foster's is not drunk by real australians though.)
11:16:41 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fosters is unusually helpful.
11:17:23 <oerjan> maybe aussies hating foster'?s has become a meme itself.
11:18:12 <oerjan> <shachaf> kmc: do you ever find yourself checking the ips of people to see if they happen to be in australia <-- it's the right time now, i think, but no australians to be heard!
11:18:35 <oerjan> maybe mafingre is a collective aussie joke and they're all in on it.
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11:21:42 <oerjan> `run allquotes | grep '[)].*[^] :] <' | paste
11:21:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20478
11:23:19 <oerjan> `run quote 191 # wtf is with this
11:23:21 <HackEgo> 191) <Phatom__Hovver> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. <pikh> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
11:23:53 <ais523> oerjan: I think it's a comment on the relative bandwidths of text and video
11:24:05 <oerjan> i mean, the nick spellings.
11:24:18 <ais523> probably some sort of nickchange chain
11:25:08 <oerjan> `run sed -i '191 s/ </ </' quotes #Fixing this, anyway.
11:25:29 <HackEgo> 191) <Phatom__Hovver> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. <pikh> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
11:28:52 <ais523> a) I updated the aimake docs; b) I found a less buggy Pod→HTML converter to do the conversion with
11:30:04 * oerjan notes the absense of level 3
11:30:25 <ais523> yeah, I noticed it wasn't there too
11:30:36 <ais523> it does the same thing as 2, I think
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11:37:12 <callforjudgement> I had to try three different servers just now to find one where the packages had a correct signature
11:41:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i '881s/ </ </' quotes
11:42:04 <HackEgo> 881) <Taneb> That's the problem with Tumblr <Taneb> All the porn titles are taken by non-porn people
11:42:27 <oerjan> `run sed -i '887s/ </ </' quotes
11:42:56 <oerjan> `run sed -i '976s/ </ </g' quotes
11:43:51 <oerjan> `run quote 887; quote 976
11:43:53 <HackEgo> 887) <coppro> GreyKnight: for instance, you can form a poset category from a bunch of tiles <GreyKnight> oh, that's why somebody was conflating category theory with bathroom interior design the other day :-D \ 976) <kmc> error: cuttlefish not synced to vblank <fiora> maybe it's a power phase issue <fiora> it's like, a european cuttlefish but it'
11:44:41 <oerjan> well, what that regex found, anyway.
11:48:05 <callforjudgement> it was a makefile problem; the tests didn't depend on the compiler, and produced executables
11:48:15 <callforjudgement> thus it could reuse executables produced by an old version of the compiler
11:48:25 <callforjudgement> this isn't enough to explain why the program didn't work, but is enough to explain the inconsistency
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11:59:41 <scarf> heh, it seems that this client cycles through alternate nicks
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13:16:13 <boily> good was-koen-enwisdomed morning!
13:17:14 <boily> olsner: you mean, in a quote where there are multiple locutors, to have each of them starting a new line?
13:18:16 <oerjan> `learn Koen lives in the top of the Eiffel Tower.
13:18:29 <oerjan> `run ln -s koen wisdom/koen_
13:20:01 <oerjan> i believe this information is completely according to the accuracy standards set by the the question.
13:21:00 <boily> `learn Koen vit au haut de la Tour Eiffel (coordonnées approximatives).
13:21:35 <oerjan> i suppose i should have expected that.
13:37:02 <boily> pikhq: you have quotes. I'm not ♪ding♪ing you, as you are unknown, and my mom always told me to «jamais faire ♪ding♪ à des étrangers».
13:37:50 <oerjan> did your mom sometimes say comprehensible things, too?
13:41:33 <oerjan> i maybe should clarify/make it worse by pointing out i wasn't referring to the french.
13:41:55 <oerjan> although, there does seem to be an approaching french singularity around here.
13:43:50 <boily> she also repeated the classics, like «mange tes légumes!».
13:44:24 <boily> but it seems the incomprehension comes from this generation. my bro and I are the same, but as he pointed out, «moi plus que lui».
13:46:22 <boily> vegetables are good, except when prepared according to the traditional Québec fashion.
13:47:46 <oerjan> at least the québécois _have_ traditional vegetables.
13:48:20 <boily> cabbage. potatoes. carrots. turnips. and then you boil the fungot out of them, just to be sure there are no nutrients left.
13:48:20 <fungot> boily: if it has to map ( require foo) to the grovel specification contains more information than simply the car the cdr. though there's no time wasted copying it anywhere
13:49:07 <oerjan> ...so let me get this straight, quebéc split _before_ french cuisine evolved?
13:50:26 <boily> ↑ I'm sure it's a Haskell library operator somewhere.
13:50:58 <oerjan> actually no, ' is an alphanumeric character.
13:51:32 <oerjan> > let (*-´+´) = "test" in (*-´+´)
13:53:30 <nortti> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sd601/papers/mov.pdf
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15:02:44 <Bike> https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/ ok
15:04:09 <boily> “...challenges the notion that space and time are fundamental components of reality”. uhm. if not space and time, then what?
15:04:44 <Roujo> "You can easily do [...] even with a computer"
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15:06:24 <Bike> kmc: https://twitter.com/MitchFraas/status/380311280499703808/photo/1
15:07:17 <boily> yay, probabilities that may not forcibly add up to 1...
15:07:33 <boily> damned physicists and their unrealistic view of the Universe!
15:08:48 <Roujo> "Reality is unrealistic"
15:10:18 <Bike> also they got a comment from andrew hodges somehow, wondering what's going on there
15:11:03 <Bike> http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/09/amplituhedron-wonderful-pr-on-new.html?m=1 some more info
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16:44:03 <kmc> '"Starbucks is not a policy maker. We're not pro- or anti-gun," but believes that guns "should not be part of the Starbucks experience."'
16:44:54 <Bike> mocha latte with tracer
16:45:00 <Gregor> Pun involving "shot"s of coffee.
16:45:34 <Roujo> Counter-pun involving, well, counters
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17:32:28 <Taneb> Guys, these puns have all bean done before
17:32:36 <Taneb> You look like complete mugs
17:34:15 <HackEgo> bash: hahaha: command not found
17:34:32 <boily> I have good memories of the Day of the Fish Puns. but the bar is too high with coffee puns...
17:34:40 <boily> (bar is too... barista... geddit?)
17:35:03 * boily hides in shame in a corner
17:35:58 <Taneb> boily, you're making a mocca-ry of the whole concept
17:38:17 <boily> Taneb: sorry, I couldn't lat-the thread die on the grounds that you're complaining.
17:39:09 <Taneb> You should really filter out all of the puns that aren't that great
17:40:00 <boily> stop roasting me over petty details. you know I speak French, so punninglishing is quite hard.
17:41:25 <Roujo> Something something black
17:41:49 <boily> we had the Fish, we're having the Coffee, did we have other Infamous Sessions?
17:42:10 <boily> Roujo: you're not milking the idea enough.
17:42:37 <Roujo> Like the metro station?
17:44:25 <boily> Roujo: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/IMG_0678.JPG
17:45:25 <Taneb> These puns are getting weaker..
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17:47:04 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Sessions
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17:51:43 <S1> I read the whole chatlog of 2013-08-27 at work today. The most flabbergasting thing was you not recognizing FALSE... I mean duh...
17:52:05 <Bike> it's an old language.
17:52:12 <S1> Pretty awesome all in all.
17:52:19 <boily> S1: you didn't see nothing. that log is an illusion to mislead the CIA.
17:52:39 <S1> If you say so
17:53:02 <Bike> what the heck happened on the 27th, that was like, years ago
17:53:06 <S1> So is the wisdom? -_-
17:54:10 <boily> S1: ah no. the wisdom exists. it's a work in progress, so there are some corners still unaligned with reality, but otherwise it's fine.
17:54:27 <S1> I will read it tomorrow.
17:54:43 <Bike> you really don't have to.
17:55:03 <Bike> let's see, we were talking about... political compass?
17:55:18 <S1> I know I've seen it all
17:55:20 <Bike> the satanic runes guy
17:55:26 <Bike> well, i don't know, i'm looking it up
17:55:36 <Bike> oh, you mean the runes was false, huh.
17:56:13 <Bike> I guess I correctly identified it as stack-based?
17:56:28 <S1> I'm pretty sure that was: 3 3 3 3***1_+,10 3 3**7+,100 16 2_++,3__3__3_3_***19+16+,4_4_*2*,10$*1+10$*4$*1_++10$*1+$$3+$5-10_10_*23+10_6_*2_+7$*,,,,,,,,,
17:57:17 <Bike> i've never seen any false code before. there's no on the wiki.
17:57:37 <Bike> i don't see any.
17:57:44 <Bike> But yeah, it does look like it matcches the command set there.
17:58:28 <S1> Well I haven't programmed false in years but after all I remember this does look like false indeed
17:58:41 <Bike> Yes, it seems to be false.
17:58:55 <Bike> ss, how do all these damn bots work.
17:59:01 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
17:59:07 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:59:12 <Bike> !help languages
17:59:12 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:59:22 <Bike> dag, no false.
18:00:56 <S1> `learn false is a very old stack-based language.
18:01:15 <S1> Is this definition even valid?
18:01:24 <S1> after all WE know
18:02:07 <Bike> what, the definition of false?
18:02:55 <Roujo> Isn't that enough for you guys?
18:03:02 <boily> `learn false is a very old stack-based language. For an authentic experience, run it on an Amiga.
18:03:29 <Roujo> `learn false is just !true. Deal with it.
18:03:30 <S1> Can we add "It's not true"?
18:03:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learn: not found
18:03:52 <HackEgo> false is a very old stack-based language. For an authentic experience, run it on an Amiga.
18:04:59 * boily whistles innocently ♪ “I didn't do nothing, la la la!”
18:05:47 <Roujo> `learn HackEgo is evil.
18:05:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learn: not found
18:06:40 <S1> obviously you're right
18:07:04 <Roujo> `complain `learn is broken
18:07:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: complain: not found
18:07:23 <boily> `learn random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet Uhm... was the binary roujobroken?
18:07:24 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:07:34 <Roujo> `run echo WHYYYYYY
18:07:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: run: not found
18:07:41 <boily> `? random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet
18:07:43 <HackEgo> random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet Uhm... was the binary roujobroken?
18:08:24 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia.
18:08:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?: not found
18:08:50 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
18:08:54 -!- quintopia has changed nick to Guest73707.
18:09:10 -!- Bike_ has joined.
18:09:18 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:09:22 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
18:09:49 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
18:09:55 -!- Guest73707 has changed nick to quintopia.
18:10:01 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
18:10:01 -!- quintopia has joined.
18:10:04 <S1> How do you change nicks?
18:11:30 <boily> ~echo is my bot still working?
18:11:31 <quintopia> i hate channel that mute you and won't let you change nicks if you're not registered, because every time there's a split or i ping out, my nick changes and i have to part nick and rejoin
18:11:51 <metasepia> Metasepia is a genus of small cuttlefish from the Pacific Ocean.
18:11:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
18:12:01 <Roujo> ~echo Is it working for me?
18:12:02 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
18:12:58 <boily> Roujo: uhm. I think your chakras are misaligned. or something. the bots all hate you. hth.
18:13:40 <Roujo> Well that's no fungot
18:13:57 <olsner> no fungot is no fungot
18:13:58 <fungot> olsner: it can't work with files on unix that have accidentally been named with spaces in strings between 93 and 98
18:14:03 <boily> fungot: why do you snob Roujo?
18:14:03 <fungot> boily: it does look pretty slick for scheme ( r5rs, or all? :) maybe its a list of symbols
18:14:16 <Roujo> I am a list of symbols, it seems
18:14:19 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
18:14:57 <boily> good fternoontopia.
18:15:15 <boily> Bike...................
18:15:41 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
18:15:42 <S1> What does hth mean btw?
18:15:44 * boily hugs his bot “I'll protect you from the vile machines!”
18:15:49 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
18:16:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: echo: not found
18:18:32 <HackEgo> I AM THE LORD OF DARKNESS. ALL BOW BEFORE ME!
18:18:49 <HackEgo> I AM HACKEGO! I AM THE VOID! PREPARE... TO DIE!
18:18:52 <Bike> anyway imo that's enough playing with bots everyone shut the fuck up
18:19:31 <boily> ~echo Bike: nah. I won't.
18:19:54 <Roujo> I think HackEgo doesn't like your bot, boily
18:20:19 <Bike> metasepia: you're not a "one", you're a bot. you can still talk
18:20:23 <boily> @tell oerjan your attempt at unverbatimising won't work, you son of a submariner.
18:20:28 <HackEgo> cat: bin/echo: No such file or directory
18:20:56 <Bike> Gregor: hey are the codu logs in your aegis
18:21:23 <Gregor> The codu logs are glogbot, which is mine.
18:21:43 <Bike> i ask because the html logs seem busted
18:22:09 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:23:47 <olsner> <boily> olsner: you mean, in a quote where there are multiple locutors, to have each of them starting a new line? <-- yes, and probably also if the same locutor locutes severally
18:26:41 <boily> olsner: I am tempted.
18:28:22 <Roujo> boily: Most people are. olsner is a temptere(ss|r)
18:30:02 * boily rolls a seduction check against olsner...
18:30:15 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:30:31 <boily> I am seduced. olsner, I'll have a demo in a few minutes...
18:30:56 <olsner> and I think you accidentally told me what Locutus (of Borg) means ... it makes sense, I just hadn't considered that it might mean something
18:31:42 <olsner> and failed to match it up with other related words I knew such as loquacity and eloquent
18:36:36 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
18:45:37 <boily> olsner: ♪gong♪ take a peek at the PDF ↑. I reformatted a pikhq's quotes. I think the end result is quite nice.
18:46:30 <Bike> wait, am i supposed to apply these serially or concurrently
18:48:26 <boily> serially. I'm not multithreaded.
18:49:15 <boily> I... wouldn't like having biological race conditions...
18:50:00 <ais523> just use a type system that statically prevents them, then
18:50:02 <Bike> if you think the body does one thing at a time you've got another thirty things coming
18:50:06 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
18:50:34 <Roujo> Well, we *are* made up of atomic operations working in parallel... >_>
18:50:46 <boily> Bike: my brain abstracts me from all the gruelling details that happen below my cranium, which is fine by me.
18:51:07 <boily> (otoh, I'm a certified pianist. there's something wrong with me...)
18:51:14 <Bike> uhhuh, remember that next time you get hungry
18:51:45 <boily> I'm not hungry. I had phở for lunch.
18:57:16 <boily> olsner: so, what is your opinion on the reformat?
18:59:17 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:59:24 -!- Frooxius has joined.
19:00:12 -!- Bike has joined.
19:23:32 <boily> hmm... seems olsner disappeared.
19:23:37 <metasepia> --- Throw dice, e.g.: dice 6 4 will throw four regular dice.
19:23:49 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:23:50 <boily> yup. he disappeared.
19:24:00 -!- conehead has joined.
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19:26:54 <fizzie> Apparently fungot disappears.
19:26:54 <fungot> fizzie: hm gentoo got that too heh trudy an in fnord we think holland and the netherlands twice, and i know that
19:29:05 <boily> wasn't it Taneb that got his brain electrified one day?
19:29:56 <Roujo> Cool, cool. C'était comment?
19:30:30 <boily> je crois qu'il a plutôt souffert, mais c'était comédique :D
19:35:42 -!- Bike has joined.
19:36:37 <Taneb> Je ne suis pas une personne interrogée
19:38:12 <boily> Taneb: ne t'inquiète pas. tout va bien. prend une grande respiration, embrasse l'Univers, fnord, ouvre ton esprit, mange tes légumes, et la vie ira bien.
19:38:46 <Taneb> Oui, c'est la façon dont il est
19:40:05 <boily> qui est ce «il» auquel tu fais référence?
19:40:54 <boily> (meanwhile, the Stupid Vido of the Day is presented by... The Association of Longfused Linguo-Biologists: http://youtu.be/NFR-ADakI-c)
19:41:16 <Bike> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1322240/ The case of the disappearing teaspoons: longitudinal cohort study of the displacement of teaspoons in an Australian research institute
19:42:21 <Taneb> boily, la vie, bien sûr
19:42:45 <boily> Taneb: vu de même, c'est logique.
19:42:57 <boily> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347208002467 Cerithidea decollata: a snail that can foresee the future?
19:44:23 <Taneb> La vie doit être masculin, bon sang
19:44:51 <Bike> boily: sciencedirect working now?
19:45:01 <Bike> Wait, now it's broken for me.
19:45:04 <Bike> What did you do!
19:45:51 <boily> Taneb: c'est féminin, et c'est comme ça. le genre en Français fait aucun sens, mais bon, il faut se compter chanceux; on en a juste deux. pas comme ces germaniques qui en on trois.
19:46:07 <boily> Bike: still borked on my side. I must be contagious.
19:46:22 <Bike> eh no big deal, it's an elsevier journal anywho
19:46:32 <Bike> collection of*
19:46:42 <Taneb> Je parle à peine le français, je suis juste en utilisant Google Translate, en passant
19:47:27 <Roujo> Google Translate is best e
19:47:39 <boily> Taneb: I know. I'm testing the limits of feeding Québec French into Google Translate :p
19:48:11 <Taneb> How accurate is the Google Translate French I've been spewing out?
19:49:31 <boily> perfectly understandable. it's obvious it's been machine translated, but the structure is generally correct.
19:50:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:53:41 <Taneb> Google-translating your French titbits into English sometimes seems a bit weird
19:53:51 <Taneb> "...unlike German, who has three"
19:54:17 <Taneb> I suppose that's because English sneakily has three genders, just we almost always use the one that French doesn't have
19:57:26 <boily> «il faut se compter chanceux» → “we are lucky”
19:57:48 <Bike> boily: i wonder why they think ladening snails will kill their path integration
19:57:51 <boily> «pas comme ces germaniques qui en on trois» → “not like those Germans who have three”
19:58:03 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
19:59:26 <Roujo> Der Männ, Die Frau, Das Kind
19:59:34 <Roujo> Plural? You're a woman!
20:00:49 <olsner> boily: je pense que le nouveau format des citations est bonne, je l'approuve
20:01:18 <olsner> (that was google translate but except for spelling and grammar it's just like the wild guess I started with)
20:01:21 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:01:30 <Roujo> That was pretty good
20:01:42 <Roujo> The bonne->bon thing was the only thing that was off =)
20:02:04 <nooodl> boily: bien sûr que google translate n'en comprenne rien. il faut écrire "ont", pas "on"!
20:02:26 <boily> olsner: ça regarde bien de mon bord aussi. ça va juste me prendre une fungotload de temps à reformatter le tout...
20:02:26 <fungot> boily: anyway it is hard trying to learn new paradigms? if so, the stuff in srfi-13.
20:02:50 <boily> nooodl: comment ça, «ont»???
20:02:57 <nooodl> (je ne suis pas très sûr que je dois employer le subjonctif, là. mais ça a l'air "cool")
20:03:11 <boily> (un subjonctif bien placé, ça fait chic :D)
20:03:33 <nooodl> (ah oui! je suis en train d'oublier mes «guillemets»)
20:03:46 <boily> mais en effet, la bonne conjugaison serait «n'y comprend rien». c'est plus ennuyeux, mais que veux-tu.
20:03:56 <boily> oh. typo de ma part. désolé!
20:05:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:06:16 <boily> Roujo: eille :P m'a te garocher dans un troupeau de caribous si ça continue de même!
20:06:29 <HackEgo> bash: caribou: command not found
20:07:00 <Bike> `run cadaver run
20:07:01 <HackEgo> bash: cadaver: command not found
20:07:13 <nooodl> les dispositions des touches françaises ont-elles des touches pour '«' et '»', ou comment ça marche?
20:07:17 <HackEgo> ♪♪ Freedom run away... ♪♪
20:07:21 <olsner> boily: you've already reformatted the whole thing a fungotload times, so I should ... regard your board?
20:07:22 <fungot> olsner: here was my earlier example. saying " i wanted to marry scheme and perl are, they are
20:07:22 <Roujo> nooodl: Pas pour moi. =P
20:07:33 <Roujo> nooodl: boily est juste fancy comme ça =P
20:08:05 <boily> nooodl: AltCar-z et AltCat-x pour aller chercher les guillemets.
20:09:04 <boily> olsner: translation: “it also looks swell on my side. it's just going to take me a fungotload of my time to reformat that thing.”
20:09:04 <fungot> boily: maybe i'll eat another one soon. it grows on you. i think if you really want
20:09:10 <Roujo> Then again, j'utilise le layout "Français (Canada)"
20:09:30 <boily> fungot: I am not edible.
20:09:30 <fungot> boily: i think i got the idea to anyone but possibly moonfish, so no comma should be inserted. but then again one could just load it up :)
20:10:25 <Roujo> I keep trying to parse what he says here - I never think to check who actually said it first
20:10:35 <boily> fungot: fyi, I'm of the homo sapiens sapiens species, not any weird sparkly fish, and if I see you approaching me with a comma in whatever hand-like appendage you have, you're gonna receive the *SMACK* of your life, you perv.
20:10:35 <fungot> boily: not saying that optional arguments are hard.
20:10:43 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
20:11:02 <boily> fungot: that argument is not optional. don't try to flee from it, you silicon fiend.
20:11:03 <fungot> boily: that is news, it reminds me of the ms source license, except that it never occured to me about stupid programming languages :)
20:11:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:11:49 <boily> fungot: acting smug while changing the subject and the license will get you nowhere, mister. I have ways to make your life miserable, so watch yourself.
20:15:06 <olsner> there's way too much french here nowadays, I think we need more finns
20:15:42 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:15:42 <boily> Roujo: regäärde! möi aussi je parle en finnöis! :p
20:16:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:17:55 <boily> olsner: jotain jotain perkele jotain...
20:24:27 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:27:41 <fizzie> boily: Sounds very authentic.
20:28:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:29:38 <Roujo> @tell oerjan helloerjan
20:30:59 <boily> oerjan: I *know* I @told you something, but what was it again?
20:31:13 <boily> Frooxius: who are you?
20:31:36 <HackEgo> Frooxius: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:32:09 <boily> Roujo: he appears in the Great Old Small Numbered Quotes.
20:32:16 <oerjan> boily: something about submarines
20:33:11 <oerjan> although that may not have been verbatim
20:33:38 <boily> oerjan: no, it is not.
20:34:09 <boily> btw, do you have a github account that I can link to the repo?
20:34:48 <HackEgo> I AM THE LORD OF DARKNESS. ALL BOW BEFORE ME!
20:35:11 <HackEgo> /bin/cat: bin/echo: No such file or directory
20:35:26 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:35:32 <HackEgo> 96 101 99 104 111 32 87 101 108 108 32 99 114 97 112
20:35:45 <boily> oerjan: there was... uhm... eh... we *slightly* abused the bots today. a little.
20:35:57 <Roujo> `echo Yeah, a tiny bit
20:35:59 <HackEgo> I AM HACKEGO! I AM THE VOID! PREPARE... TO DIE!
20:36:43 <Roujo> What does `ord do?
20:37:06 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:37:06 <fizzie> ^ord shows bytes instead
20:37:07 <fungot> 115 104 111 119 115 32 98 121 116 101 115 32 105 110 115 116 101 97 100
20:37:26 <oerjan> Roujo: i assumed you had redefined the echo command.
20:37:33 <Roujo> oerjan: You guessed wrong ^^
20:37:44 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
20:38:57 <Roujo> `echo See, everything is fine
20:38:59 <HackEgo> I AM THE LORD OF DARKNESS. ALL BOW BEFORE ME!
20:39:00 <oerjan> `echo Yeah, a tiny bit
20:39:03 <boily> `echo il se passe des choooooooses mystérieeeeeuses ici.
20:39:04 <HackEgo> il se passe des choooooooses mystérieeeeeuses ici.
20:39:17 <boily> `echo Roujo is a botbreaker.
20:40:26 <fizzie> `run echo bin/*echo* | hexdump -C
20:40:27 <HackEgo> 00000000 62 69 6e 2f 02 02 65 63 68 6f 20 62 69 6e 2f 16 |bin/..echo bin/.| \ 00000010 16 65 63 68 6f 0a |.echo.| \ 00000016
20:41:04 <Roujo> There's a nice 02 02 right there =P
20:41:35 <oerjan> Roujo: the clever part is where that doesn't get copied when i paste from putty into `ord :)
20:41:52 <Roujo> Most IRC clients don't show control codes =P
20:41:57 <Roujo> Since they're, well, control codes
20:42:15 <Roujo> Putting them twice cancels it
20:42:49 <Roujo> `echo And using them here makes it transparent to most ^^
20:42:53 <HackEgo> I AM HACKEGO! I AM THE VOID! PREPARE... TO DIE!
20:43:14 <Roujo> I'll find something more clever for next time =P
20:43:49 <boily> `echo it's subtle...
20:43:51 <HackEgo> I AM HACKEGO! I AM THE VOID! PREPARE... TO DIE!
20:44:09 <boily> Vorpal: how's the child?
20:45:13 <boily> mtve: kitty, kitty, kitty, kitty, kitty, fnord, kitty, kitty, kitty, kitty...
20:45:28 <oerjan> Roujo: also, this all would have been revealed immediately if zzo38 were here
20:46:06 <Roujo> Eir client shows control codes?
20:46:34 <oerjan> Roujo: well, the one he made himself.
20:46:49 <boily> fizzie: according to the quotes, he was pregnant at one time.
20:47:15 <boily> Roujo: s/Eir/Hir/. use real gender neutral pronouns. you're triggering me. check your privileges!
20:47:29 <oerjan> boily: now don't give us all a shock, i'm having trouble enough adjusting to fizzie being married.
20:47:38 <Roujo> boily: s/boily/pouti/g HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES
20:47:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Still? It's not exactly a new thing, you know.
20:48:02 <oerjan> fizzie: it's so out of character (for anyone here)
20:48:34 <boily> Roujo: let's duel! guerre des pouces!
20:48:41 <fizzie> We had a ten year anniversary-of-first-meeting day the other day, incidentally. That there is a decade right there.
20:50:02 <boily> fizzie met a girl 10 years ago. that's as many as one ten! and this is good!
20:50:23 <Roujo> Holy userboxes batman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Zzo38
20:50:43 <Roujo> fizzie: I just got that with my SO ^^
20:51:12 <fizzie> "This user does not trust electronic voting machines" there's a box for every purpose.
20:51:21 <kmc> fizzie: congrats
20:51:30 <boily> @tell zzo38 ooooooooooow.
20:52:57 <Roujo> "This place is reserved for a UserBox."
20:53:05 <Roujo> "Ceci n'est pas une boîte utilisateur."
20:53:18 <kmc> I guess my girlfriend and I first met about 8 years ago, but we didn't pay much attention to each other until 4 years ago or so
20:53:41 <boily> `quote system is fairly sane
20:53:42 <oerjan> boily: i'm sorry, don't try to mess with proud Agoran gender neutral tradition, it will not End Well.
20:53:42 <HackEgo> 358) <Sgeo_> "system is fairly sane <Sgeo_> <elliott> imagine if the roomba was called the Robotic Magic Vacuum <Sgeo_> <elliott> would you object to that being trademarked <Sgeo_> <monqy> I mean <Sgeo_> <monqy> phrase trade" <Sgeo_> oops
20:53:55 -!- Bike has joined.
20:54:19 <boily> should I include quote #358 in elliott's list, or just put it under Sgeo_'s?
20:54:25 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That's more of a criticism for an oerjan, is it not?
20:54:35 <boily> oerjan: I'll pronounify as I see fit.
20:54:47 <boily> fizzie: oerjan is a unit of measurement?
20:55:01 <fizzie> boily: What else would you measure oerjan with?
20:55:03 <Roujo> boily: Then you will die
20:55:18 <kmc> also words are annoying... "girlfriend" sounds too casual but "significant other" is too long and formal; "partner" is ambiguous plus people will think she's a dude
20:55:28 <Roujo> "This user needs more userboxes. MORE, I tell you, more!!! Muhahaha!"
20:55:42 <kmc> how about POSSLQ
20:55:50 <fizzie> Roujo: That always makes me think of Stack Overflow, which probably isn't the best connotation to have.
20:56:04 <Roujo> fizzie: Depends on your SO's reputation, I'd guess
20:56:18 <metasepia> POSSLQ is an abbreviation (or acronym) for "Persons of Opposite Sex Sharing Living Quarters," a term coined in the late 1970s by the United States Census Bureau as part of an effort to more accurately gauge the prevalence of cohabitation in American households.
20:56:54 <boily> and there I was thinking “Q” meant Québec, as in any other acronym you see here...
20:57:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm permanently eight years old, or so my dad seems to think
20:58:35 <kmc> also she is in this channel sometimes
20:58:36 <boily> Roujo: speaking of the Language Police, it's been a while since we heard of them in the news, eh?
20:58:47 <boily> kmc: who is she, so I can PDF her?
20:59:27 <kmc> her nick is douglass
20:59:27 <oerjan> kmc: what i remember about POSSLQ is that someone once made a song "Will you be my POSSLQ?"
20:59:30 <kmc> she hasn't said much...
21:00:14 <boily> @tell douglass hi! do you consent to be PDFed?
21:00:37 * Roujo gazes into the distance
21:02:54 <oerjan> kmc: also wikipedia's article on that seems to indicate i remember wrong. i'll put it due to old age and senility.
21:03:48 <oerjan> wait, i don't think either of those are right. argh.
21:04:07 <Fiora> kmc: "girlfriend" is also an overloaded term ("going out with my girl friends / my girlfriend")
21:04:48 <oerjan> i thought the space was semantic in that one
21:04:50 <kmc> not when guys say it though
21:04:56 <elliott> I think it's generally unambiguous if you're male?
21:05:08 <boily> elliott: “my shrinkwrapped.” I know I shouldn't be laughing at that, but I can't stop.
21:05:20 <Taneb> elliott, not everyone with a girlfriend is male, though
21:05:46 <Fiora> yeah, the ambiguity is really only for female speakers ^^;
21:12:44 <oerjan> <Bike> http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/09/amplituhedron-wonderful-pr-on-new.html?m=1 some more info
21:12:59 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: haha
21:13:00 <oerjan> be careful linking to motl.
21:13:37 <oerjan> he's like the ulrich drepper of physics, or something.
21:14:03 <kmc> what's engineer syndrome
21:14:38 <Phantom_Hoover> where someone with some kind of technical expertise assumes it makes them an expert in everything
21:14:55 <kmc> i would call it "programmer syndrome" but i'm a self-hating programmer so
21:15:04 <boily> I am an expert in everything.
21:15:06 <kmc> "soylent syndrome"
21:15:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i call it engineer syndrome because everybody hates engineers
21:15:28 <boily> engineers are great! long live engineers!
21:17:11 <Fiora> there seems to be like a general thing where some people when they see some other group of people doing something superficially dumb they will assume those people are dumb, rather than their knowledge incomplete (like "all these scientists are wrong")
21:17:26 <Fiora> (instead of "I don't understand fully what these scientists are doing")
21:18:02 <kmc> "if they're so smart why aren't they programmers instead"
21:18:25 <Fiora> but like not really limited to engineers or programmers, I've seen it in all kinds of people I guess
21:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc have you considered moving to a profession where you won't hate all your colleagues and yourself
21:18:43 <kmc> it wouldn't last
21:18:59 <kmc> I don't actually hate my colleagues and myself, though! I mostly avoid the bad parts of the industry
21:19:17 <kmc> I work on open source at a kinda-non-profit with a bunch of amazingly smart and humble people
21:20:27 <kmc> it should be clear that most of the reason I complain about programmers being shitty is some kind of projection or credible social committment to being better myself
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21:44:33 <oerjan> <boily> Roujo: regäärde! möi aussi je parle en finnöis! :p <-- i'm sörry, but be möre careful with vöwel härmöny when speäking finnish
21:45:25 <oerjan> oh wait, maybe that was right
21:47:27 <fizzie> It seems okay. It doesn't have any of aou with any of äöy.
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21:50:40 <fizzie> Fun fact: "möi" is the third-person singular indicative past tens of "to sell" ("myydä").
21:51:25 <oerjan> that doesn't sound very agglutinating.
21:51:54 <fizzie> Well, a dialectal variation. "myi" would be the variant considered official, I think.
21:52:35 <fizzie> It's not always just prefixes, sometimes there's quite a lot of stupid inflection.
21:53:12 <kmc> agglutin-free diet
21:54:25 <HackEgo> polvimmissämme kometrissa parauhoittöksähtämä epämme sykoltamastansa tutkimiltä ruhjovimpiassa tytinne ilma-anostani tunktontuvakielemmilla lauluvaksenne kalisempää maltavan nyrpeekseli altasisäkuviksi siutuviannetina juhlasi ahersyttämänne murtuimpinemalta vapainokirichteyksi
21:55:19 <kmc> `words --drunk --finnish 20
21:55:47 <oerjan> clearly something missing there
21:55:59 <olsner> the --drunk option is meaningless with --finnish since it can't be disabled anyway
21:56:06 <oerjan> also what's that c doing in the last word
21:56:27 <oerjan> olsner: sure it can, finns can be either drunk or tee-totallers.
21:56:30 <fizzie> Heh, "altasisäkuviksi" is a compound word, arguably somewhat meaningless but not completely outlandish; the individual components together would mean something like "from below to pictures taken inside".
21:56:43 <fizzie> (And "juhlasi" is "your party", but that's pretty lame.)
21:56:54 <olsner> maltavan doesn't mean anything?
21:57:48 <fizzie> Sadly, not really. If it started with v instead of m, then it would.
21:58:41 <oerjan> also i repeat, what's that c doing in vapainokirichteyksi
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21:58:46 <fizzie> oerjan: Now that you've said that, it makes me wonder if "valtava" (huge, gigantic) and "valtio" (country, state) have some common etymology.
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21:59:08 <fizzie> oerjan: The /usr/share/dict files that were used to construct those have some loan words, I think.
22:00:11 <fizzie> Including "Emacs", it seems.
22:00:51 <fizzie> Also 43 inflections of "Dirichlet".
22:01:25 <fizzie> And the word "Discworldistakin" ("also from Discworld") but no other forms.
22:01:42 <fizzie> I wonder if these have been automatically constructed from some text.
22:03:10 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/iBDi well that's quite messy.
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22:04:42 <fizzie> "This dictionary recognizes over 6 million words and word forms. Ispell requires about 19 megabytes of memory when using this dictionary."
22:05:05 <fizzie> It's not the best spell checker for Finnish.
22:05:08 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
22:07:13 <olsner> I think it's a fictional mammal
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22:07:26 <olsner> or "big furry creature"
22:08:11 <nooodl> fizzie: i like how it includes "200 most common words"
22:08:25 <Roujo> http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ca/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
22:08:50 <nooodl> like how were any of those not already in the other sources
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22:11:32 <olsner> it seems the other sources where not very good
22:12:47 <fizzie> The other sources do not sound terribly good.
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22:16:33 <fizzie> Still, the Institute for the Languages of Finland has a 94110-word "general-purpose common modern Finnish words" wordlist licensed under LGPL, EUPL and CC-BY, wonder why they didn't use e.g. that. (Though very possibly it wasn't available back then.)
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22:31:26 <Koen> your dutch is impressive
22:33:19 <fizzie> Fun fact 2: the Europarl English-Finnish parallel corpus has 31852489 Finnish words made out of 675089 unique forms, but 47011793 (approx. 1.48x) English words made out of only 106841 (approx. 0.16x) unique forms.
22:35:02 <fizzie> Fun fact 3: the fourth most common Finnish word is "Euroopan" (Europe's).
22:35:10 <fizzie> (I think this corpus might have a kind of a bias.)
22:36:57 <fizzie> 50 most common English words: http://sprunge.us/OXVM
22:37:03 <fizzie> fungot: Can you speak like that?
22:37:04 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, as usual, it seeks to bring prices down and raises standards of living in latin america, especially the most defenceless and disadvantaged, a few words about how this disease came about and how it is done in burma, and are in fact being reversed. on the other hand, where income tax is only 10% of the population, thereby fulfilling its commitment to peace, to economic and social operators at local level. th
22:37:32 <fizzie> fungot: You forgot the "h" in the terminating "hth" hth
22:37:33 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the socialist group have a reservation. surely we do not actually have anything against a fair tax burden, but the only issue on which the entire arab world with the exception of actions directly benefiting the people.
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22:40:12 <oerjan> did fungot just not calculate line length properly there?
22:40:13 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, the next mca will come along while in the opinion of the members of the committee responsible, which may mean that responsibilities become more confused in a europe which does not violate multilateral frameworks, in jointly protecting our interests and in our actions, a proposal, so we are not in a position to deliver its opinion.
22:40:31 <fizzie> oerjan: It doesn't really calculate line lengths at all.
22:40:38 <Koen> did fungot swap personalities with someone?
22:40:39 <fungot> Koen: mr president, president chirac also expressed the hope that it is not linked to production, but we have a promise on page 12, last line, item 21, calls for a continuation of the supply structure of the proposed amendments would simply duplicate or encroach on these documents.
22:41:05 <oerjan> fizzie: oh, so it's just luck that it doesn't get cut off in the middle of a word more often?
22:41:18 <Koen> he's talking to me about chirac
22:41:18 <Koen> he was talking with fizzie about the entire arab world
22:41:24 <Koen> a logical deduction is that fizzie is arab
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22:41:42 <oerjan> fungot: is Koen insane?
22:41:44 <fungot> oerjan: that would be in our midst. the only people who seem to be confusing anti-tank and anti-personnel mines is an enormous difference between degrees of enrichment of uranium has been a reality for the time and effort in preparing for these reforms are. the rapporteur himself says, this is not premature because the questions will be given priority over, for example, a political power game. we are engaged in a democratic cou
22:41:46 <Koen> and oerjan is european apparently
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22:42:24 <Koen> so far all evidences support my thesis oerjan
22:42:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:43:13 <Koen> shachaf: the current style is obviously not nethack, but I can't say anything about the others
22:43:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Pretty much. Though there rules -- assuming no bugs -- make the stopping probability 1 after a 100 words. But that line that got cut off is just 74 words; politicians are so verbose.
22:44:01 <shachaf> fungot: don't you mr president me
22:44:01 <fungot> shachaf: president of the european union would generate ten million jobs created between 1997 and 1999, we want to do something about this.
22:44:17 <fizzie> Yeah, we'd better do something about all those jobs.
22:44:37 <shachaf> fungot: what are we going to do about all those jobs
22:44:38 <fungot> shachaf: mr president, the conditions for them. we parliamentarians have been fnord on behalf of the european monetary institute and the problem of the cost of currency exchanges. the commission's humanitarian aid gets through to them; the rest is up for discussion within the middle east.
22:46:24 <Koen> the moon is full
22:47:05 <oerjan> Koen: i mean the stars of ^style
22:47:51 <fizzie> fungot: YOU are the star.
22:47:52 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, please allow me, by way of clarification, the joint inspection structure, eur 100 000 to create four regional advisory councils. now to play that role in the advent of the information channels between olaf, the committee on legal affairs and the internal market, which will be extremely interested in as well the continuing lack of democratic debate and to this end.
22:48:06 <Koen> I guess that is consistent
22:48:39 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not giving you a hundred thou for some advisory councils, just forget about it.
22:48:39 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i would accept that 10 of all the member states and the candidate countries have had the political courage to debate it. we extended candidacy to turkey.
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23:53:18 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, i should like to congratulate mr scapagnini in his absence i am happy to engage in a process of peace and the respect of their own are entitled to bring this proposal to modify the current system in order to have any influence on those aspects where there is a small step.
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00:30:07 <HackEgo> ♪♪ Freedom run away... ♪♪
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01:16:21 <madbr> hmm, I wonder how this data structure is called
01:16:32 <madbr> a vector that's split into pages (of, say, 256 entries perhaps) and each page can be "rotated" by an offset
01:17:05 <madbr> so that if you insert or remove an element, you don't have to update everything, only the page where it was inserted/removed, and then the first entry of all the following pages (plus "rotating" the page to keep the order consistent)
01:18:04 <Roujo> madbr: Interesting ^^
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01:21:01 <madbr> Random access is O(1), insertion/deletion is O(sqrt(N))
01:24:05 * pikhq prefers skip lists
01:25:16 <pikhq> Average O(log n) search, insert, delete, index and O(n) in-order access? Whee.
01:28:06 <madbr> don't you already get that from a tree?
01:28:57 <pikhq> Also, skip lists are easy.
01:29:38 <madbr> I'm trying to go for a structure that's balanced mostly towards random access
01:30:24 <madbr> with better performance than O(n) for insertion but worse than O(n log n)
01:32:28 <pikhq> (fair note, O(log n) figures are average case. Worst case is O(n)
01:33:01 <madbr> If you insert more data than a page though, then this structure wouldn't be faster than a straight vector though
01:33:28 <madbr> you'd need to introduce page remapping, which would slow down indexing
01:35:06 <madbr> it would also be possible to introduce multiple page levels, which would reduce insertion cost to O(cuberoot(N)), O(N^0.25), O(N^0.2) etc depending on the number of levels
01:35:33 <madbr> or O(n log n) if you had variable number of levels
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01:52:23 <Sgeo> Bike... isn't here
01:52:30 <Sgeo> Imagine if Common Lisp didn't have gensym :/
01:52:59 <mnoqy> imagine if common lisp macros were hygienic
01:53:04 <Sgeo> Tcl does not have gensym built-in. It's easy to write, but considering you have to do so or use a library, people might not think to reach for it
01:53:04 <Roujo> @ask Bike What would Common Lisp be like if it didn't have gensym?
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02:19:38 <Bike> @tell roujo like java without println, in that you can add the stupid thing back in like three seconds
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03:13:26 <Sgeo> Sure, but then everyone is forced to write their own or use a library
03:13:38 <Sgeo> Which could make using it feel more awkward
03:14:02 <Bike> people do that lal the time for other stuff though. no big eal.
03:19:27 <Sgeo> "• NULL cipher suites provide no encryption."
03:19:47 <Sgeo> No shit? Why would/does SSL/TLS support something like that?
03:20:13 <Bike> null cipher as in identity?
03:20:25 <Bike> oh, it's something else, derp
03:21:12 <Bike> "A null cipher is an ancient form of encryption where the plaintext is mixed with a large amount of non-cipher material. It would today be regarded as a simple form of steganography. Null ciphers can also be used to hide ciphertext, as part of a more complex system."
03:21:21 <Bike> according to god.
03:21:38 <Bike> like using the first letter of each word, that kind of thing.
03:22:02 <Sgeo> The null cipher in SSL seems to be identity
03:22:20 <Bike> oh, well, i'm sure somebody needs identity for something
03:22:26 <Bike> identity is just such a useful thing to have
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04:25:51 <Bike> Does anyone happen to know what happens if a C++ program uses __attribute__((constructor)) or equivalent with a function that can raise an exception?
04:27:05 <kmc> try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light
04:27:16 <Bike> i expected that.
04:28:05 <kmc> I mean, I don't think the C++ spec says anything about __attribute__((constructor)), although it probably says what happens if the actual constructor of a global/static object throws
04:28:33 <Bike> i mean the loads-on-dlopen stuff
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04:39:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 18h 13m 35s ago: I have also started seeing the thing where wikipedia tries to change to https automatically. I kind of like it. I think it's set by the "Always use a secure connection
04:39:32 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 48m 2s ago: ooooooooooow.
04:40:26 <kmc> you can't really do "Always use a secure connection when and only when logged in" with HTTP
04:40:40 <kmc> you can send an HSTS header but it will apply when not logged in too
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04:46:39 <zzo38> Now I have the full updated version of CGA Collection: http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP The programs and documentation are updated, and there are some new ones such as Attribute Zone.
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04:52:34 <shachaf> oerjan: 21:45 <dolio> shachaf: Monads are algebras of the free monad monad.
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05:00:10 <zzo38> Please tell me if you like this game and of the upgrades it has, and of bug report, comment, opinion, question, complaint, and if you made up any new levels for these games and/or new games to add to this collection
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05:20:45 <zzo38> I have been thinking about the Newcomb's, and realize that purely statistically speaking, picking one box would seem to have the best expected value. However, "statistically speaking" is not the only way to speak.
05:27:01 <zzo38> This program compresses 28 sokoban levels into 942 bytes, although I am sure I could get much better compression than that; I have calculated that even simply adding Huffman coding improves will make it half the size.
05:28:32 <zzo38> Do you know a better way (which won't slow down too much or become too complicated)?
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05:45:05 <Sgeo> `pastequotes pooryorick
05:45:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4128
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05:58:30 <fizzie> You could probably technically use the NULL cipher if, for some reason (maybe to be NSA-friendly?), you want a non-encrypted but authenticated pipe. (Though that reason doesn't really hold for the TLS_NULL_WITH_NULL_NULL cipher suite.)
05:59:26 <Bike> working nsa codename for skipjack
06:00:10 <fizzie> Anyway, "Application data MUST NOT be sent prior to the completion of the first handshake (before a cipher suite other than TLS_NULL_WITH_NULL_NULL is established)."
06:01:12 <fizzie> "TLS_NULL_WITH_NULL_NULL is specified and is the initial state of a TLS connection during the first handshake on that channel, but MUST NOT be negotiated, as it provides no more protection than an unsecured connection."
06:01:36 <fizzie> I guess it's cleaner to say that the handshake part also has a particular TLS mode.
06:03:14 <fizzie> (But e.g. TLS_RSA_WITH_NULL_SHA256 -- RSA for server authentication, the NULL cipher and SHA256 for the MAC -- seems to be on the cipher suite list, so I guess that's something you could negotiate.)
06:09:24 <nortti> ''This project has been named Gandalf, which stands for "Generic, AdvaNceD Application Loader (Filesystem aware)", and it is inscribed upon the source that it is the "One Bootloader to rule them all, One Bootloader to find them, One Bootloader to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."''
06:10:10 <nortti> "Note: This project bears no connection with the Lord of The Rings."
06:27:45 <HackEgo> smlist (426): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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06:28:55 <mnoqy> what a good tuesday
06:29:09 <elliott> I'm glad I forgot to read super mega for like a month. now I get lots of them in one go
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08:14:31 <nvd> Huh, not registered
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08:23:10 <oerjan> <nortti> "Note: This project bears no connection with the Lord of The Rings." <-- of course not, a _real_ connection wouldn't confuse gandalf and sauron.
08:24:23 <oerjan> fizzie: i say you make the finnish fungot style out of all the spam that keeps coming these days.
08:25:18 <oerjan> i guess getting finnish spam would not be as weird to a finn.
08:25:39 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to learn Finnish?
08:26:05 <oerjan> fungot: are you rebelling against your maker?
08:26:15 <fizzie> Last thing in the log is that "Huh, not registered".
08:26:58 <oerjan> something has gone horribly wrong!
08:30:04 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't get any Finnish spam. :-(
08:32:55 <fizzie> Curious also: I get "PING :pratchett.freenode.net"s in the log every few minutes.
08:33:02 <fizzie> It's like a split without a split.
08:35:17 <oerjan> Taneb is also on pratchett fwiw
08:36:07 <oerjan> didn't it log his nick change?
08:36:18 <fizzie> Should've said "last comment".
08:36:27 <fizzie> Everything after the nick-change is just PINGs.
08:36:44 <fizzie> Your quote just came in.
08:36:52 <fizzie> Only 14 minutes or so late.
08:37:06 <fizzie> Perhaps there's some sort of a time distortion field?
08:38:07 <fizzie> I don't have timestamps in the rawlog to console, sadly. Perhaps I should have.
08:40:15 <fizzie> Still no sign of your first line mentioning fungot, which I guess means the distortion is getting worse.
08:40:23 <fungot> oerjan: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, i think this is already the case for the past ten years, after fifteen years of decline due to the lower age limit of 18 years of this directive may well also prove quite difficult now. the second point which i would like to focus briefly on the issue of inadequate human and financial resources available. the same goes for the liberal economy and to the disadvantage of consumers an
08:40:44 <oerjan> let me guess, it just got in :P
08:41:08 <fizzie> You chose... correctly.
08:41:24 <fizzie> Funny that the reply got through pretty much immediately.
08:42:06 <fizzie> Somewhere in the network there's a very long queue, I suppose.
08:43:29 <fungot> fizzie: as i think it is wrong that all the citizens of north korea to grow seed crops that will produce, we want a europe which locks people out. they have forced the flexibility instrument because, in balancing up the different methods of waste disposal as proposed by the commission.
08:43:45 <fungot> oerjan: commissioner, you have set a timetable, as we have all been quite horribly murdered by people coming from some of the reasons why others cannot be overlooked in this information society are, ladies and gentlemen, i am more than happy to grant the commission discharge. how much is it? entirely because of the substance in a declaration. i hope you will understand history and the brutality was not just the euro, that it co
08:44:33 <Taneb> I would like to learn Finnish
08:45:02 <oerjan> and a Taneb, but no way to know how soon he responded.
08:46:05 <fizzie> At the moment it is at "something has gone horribly wrong!"
08:47:14 <oerjan> my fungot whois from way back came in
08:47:56 <Taneb> I have to say that IRC feels a bit bumpy to me
08:48:11 <oerjan> you would say that, wouldn't you.
08:48:24 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, i have supported, and the traffic in northern italy over the past few years with regard to a simple majority in parliament who are not.
08:48:57 <oerjan> wait, when did you say the next fungot
08:49:05 <fungot> oerjan: when we talk about the dutch example that you yourself, mr santer made a statement on its positions concerning key budgetary issues. in respect of public health protection, the contribution of this report despite the fact that the treaty of nice which, mr fnord, the leader of the governing council if we really want to hold up a mirror to turkey's progress reports year after year hangs over the forests of the north. i fa
08:49:14 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, you just responded to mr wijsenbeek and this house will take note of these. the commission welcomes the european parliament's estimates, also in the european union
08:49:29 <oerjan> you're back! you're safe!
08:50:36 <fungot> fizzie: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!
08:51:16 <Taneb> I'm not entirely sure what is going on
08:51:43 <fizzie> Nothing to see here but reflections from weather balloons, move along.
08:51:43 <oerjan> oh no, he's still distorted - in his mind!
08:52:44 <oerjan> Taneb: do you also feel a weird attraction to learning welsh?
08:53:10 <Taneb> But I do have a lot of italian biscuit things
08:53:12 <oerjan> ah. then i gues you aren't the reincarnation of tolkien anyhow.
08:53:48 <oerjan> that was the inspiration for one of his smaller elvish dialects
08:54:53 <oerjan> fungot: wait how did you silently change from europarl to ct
08:54:55 <fungot> oerjan: the knight spirit has long been broken! the mountain of woe. it's likely that dalton came from the laboratories to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?
08:54:55 <Taneb> I did actually try to learn Welsh once
08:55:02 <Taneb> Didn't get very far
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08:55:34 <oerjan> fungot: can the sword alone stop?
08:55:36 <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this world are places like that. a peaceful. hah! you think you are? coming and going out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
08:56:50 <oerjan> fungot: yes, but how is that relevant to sword stoppability?
08:56:52 <fungot> oerjan: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca the great magus. oh! crono!!
08:57:54 <oerjan> fungot: but i'm not very good with swords. might lose my arm or something.
08:57:55 <fungot> oerjan: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!! i owe you one! you saved the day of lavos"... go to " mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
08:58:16 <oerjan> fungot: well keep looking.
08:58:50 <fizzie> oerjan: I thought, given your exclamation points and the topic of time shenanigans, it would be more appropriate.
09:03:13 <oerjan> @arr It's that day again!
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11:55:38 <fizzie> I just can't help it that the Python list-flattening "idiom" (I'm not sure how widely used it) of [item for sublist in list for item in sublist] just confuses me. I can think through it with effort, but it just doesn't parse right in my head naturally.
11:56:01 <fizzie> I think if they had it in the [item for item in sublist for sublist in list] order it would.
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12:50:43 <fizzie> What's the generic installed-by-default Unix-like tool for computing sums of numbers? I'm getting tired of always writing a perl or awk oneliner.
12:53:04 <Gregor> Actually, I think only bc is specified by POSIX, but historically speaking, dc.
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12:57:14 <fizzie> I think I've used bc but that involves making a summation expression, which is nasty too.
12:59:35 <ais523> I think the perl oneliner is the correct way to do it
13:03:48 <fizzie> `run echo '1 2 3 4 5' | dc - <(echo '0ss[q]sq[z1=qrls+ssdx]dxlsp')
13:04:07 <fizzie> I'm sure that's easier to construct than a Perl oneliner.
13:04:59 -!- Taneb has joined.
13:08:25 <myname> there should be J installed everywhere! make things much easier
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13:11:50 <oerjan> darn hth preservation failure
13:12:11 <oerjan> myname: i don't know but jconn has been here for ages
13:12:28 <oerjan> <nortti> "Note: This project bears no connection with the Lord of The Rings."
13:12:28 <oerjan> <nortti> "Note: This project bears no connection with the Lord of The Rings."
13:13:11 <oerjan> when you accidentally paste with your stomach you might be having your laptop too comfortably placed
13:13:58 <boily> good since-when-oerjan-can-hth-again morning!
13:14:39 <myname> but i don't know how that bot works
13:14:51 <myname> i want to rewrite that for myself
13:15:28 <boily> myname: iirc, you'll have to ask Jafet. I think he's the one who's jconning this chännel.
13:15:54 <myname> i am writing an xmpp bot ;)
13:17:13 <oerjan> boily: i've always been able to hth, just not at the end of the line
13:18:52 <myname> is d for did or for didn't?
13:19:10 <oerjan> should be did, otherwise you say
13:19:41 <boily> the tdh is not the tdnh, if twh. hth.
13:20:01 <boily> oerjan: how many hth variants are your barred from?
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13:21:15 <oerjan> boily: hth, twh, twnh, tdh and
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13:34:56 <oerjan> so, we live in a world where, after something attains perfection for a while, it then becomes unfashionable and falls out of use.
13:35:26 <oerjan> (daily oerjan melancholy)
13:38:53 <boily> just wait 20 years, then your melancholy will become retro and vintage.
13:39:58 <oerjan> no, that happened 20 years ago, then it went out of fashion again. of course it happened during the _one_ period in my life when i wasn't depressed.
13:40:23 <myname> what the hell are you talking about
13:40:44 <oerjan> myname: yeah, pretty much.
13:41:26 <oerjan> the theory that i'm already dead and in hell has a lot going for it.
13:41:50 * oerjan somehow laughs, anyhow.
13:42:16 * boily gives a herring plushie to oerjan
13:42:58 <oerjan> that sounds like a friendly gesture, but i'm afraid it's a red herring.
13:44:11 <boily> it only appears red because of hell's lighting. it's an optical illusory friendly herring ersatz.
13:45:47 <myname> oerjan: i still haven't figured out what a piece of code did you gave me once :D
13:46:29 <oerjan> myname: well i've forgotten?
13:47:03 <oerjan> you could paste, if you like.
13:47:06 <myname> it was (2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x))
13:47:45 <oerjan> hm was that for an esolang? i remember there was one that needed bit shifting.
13:48:08 <myname> yeah, it was for one i designed and i proved turing-completeness recently
13:48:45 <oerjan> it was for testing something for x.
13:49:05 <boily> silly me, trying to run that through python. either it's complaining about negative shifts, or long ints being too large.
13:49:23 <boily> I wonder if I can haskell that code...
13:49:48 <oerjan> > [(2+(1`shiftL`x))`shiftL`(-1-(1`shiftL`x)) | x <- [-2..2]]
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13:52:12 <oerjan> ok if x is negative, that gives 2<<(-1), which should be 1.
13:53:03 <myname> otherwise it should be 0
13:53:15 <myname> how did you came to this :D
13:55:28 <oerjan> well, the idea is that shifting y right by y would give 0 for any number, but by decreasing the shift slightly you can get a few exceptions.
13:55:47 <Roujo> 'morning, #esoteric
13:56:26 <oerjan> or well, step 1: 1<<x is 0 for x negative, something positive otherwise.
13:56:57 <Roujo> Realization of the day: My girlfriend in NP-Complete
13:57:19 <boily> I'm tempted to answer «helloujo», but mentioning any word that has «hell» in it seems to disrupt ørjan today...
13:57:47 <Roujo> That is, given a certain desired outcome, it is very hard to find the required input
13:58:08 <Roujo> However, given a certain input, it's pretty easy to see if it produces the desired outcome
13:58:09 <oerjan> step 2: use right shifts and tweaking with constants to turn 0 into 1 and every other positive number to 0.
13:58:26 <Roujo> So yeah. NP-Complete
13:58:59 <oerjan> Roujo: you are assuming the input always has the same effect. otherwise, she might be PSPACE-Complete.
13:59:31 <Roujo> oerjan: Well, given that she's in the same state, the same input will always have the same outcome
13:59:37 <myname> Roujo: isn't that just the definition of "being in np"?
14:00:06 <Roujo> Sounds like it, anyway
14:00:22 <myname> to be np-complete you have do reduce to 3sat
14:00:40 <Roujo> Sure, I'll get right on that
14:02:04 <oerjan> no, you need to reduce 3sat to her. sheesh, people always get that the wrong way around.
14:02:30 <Roujo> I guess the NP problem would be "interacting with my girlfriend", anyway
14:02:35 <Roujo> Not my girlfriend herself
14:03:14 <oerjan> Roujo: i dunno, it feels more like sokoban (where you can get stuck in corners) than sudoku, no? and sokoban is PSPACE-complete.
14:03:42 <Jafet> Perhaps she is equivalent to set domination.
14:03:46 <boily> Roujo: gorging myself on unapproved yerba mate.
14:03:57 <Roujo> Right. The way I formulated it implied that there's always a solution, didn't it
14:04:31 <myname> boily: in what way unapproved?
14:04:36 <boily> Roujo: my argentinian coworkers disapprove my technique.
14:04:53 <metasepia> Software description: a ruby gem which adds support for yerb (yaml with erb) to yaml (Ruby).
14:06:45 <metasepia> Software description: eRB for JavaScript (JavaScript).
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14:16:29 <Roujo> [10:06:08] <boily> [09:20:01] oerjan: how many hth variants are your barred from?
14:16:29 <Roujo> [10:06:08] <oerjan> [09:21:15] boily: hth, twh, twnh, tdh and
14:17:03 <ais523> he's not allowed to use them at the end of sentences
14:17:21 <Roujo> That's why I found it funny
14:17:37 <Roujo> I'm just curious as to what that last one was
14:17:48 <Roujo> Ah, yeah, probably
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14:17:53 <nooodl> that would help, that would not help, that did help, that did not help
14:18:07 <boily> Roujo: most of them are in the wisdom.
14:18:08 -!- kmc has joined.
14:18:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
14:18:41 <Roujo> I had a nice conversation with Koen the other day, re: netsplits
14:18:50 <Roujo> Something about being on the "right side" of the split
14:19:10 <Roujo> And how he always managed to do that, since it was always the other side that quit the channel
14:19:36 -!- Tayler has joined.
14:19:46 <HackEgo> Tayler: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:20:35 <Roujo> Heya. How is it going?
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14:21:16 <Roujo> Yeah, the moon is up
14:21:50 <Tayler> where are you from? it's day in my house rsrs
14:22:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3990
14:22:10 <Roujo> Tayler: It's day here as well, and yet the moon is up
14:22:53 <Roujo> oerjan: Most of those are about dupdog. That's sad =P
14:23:11 <oerjan> Roujo: yes, but look further
14:23:25 <Roujo> <Phantom_Hoover> And then elliott brought in another totally unrelated bot named updog which did nothing but say "what's updog" whenever its name was mentioned.
14:24:41 -!- Tayler has left.
14:25:25 <boily> he left! why do they always leave! I was typing the The Question! and asking him about his opinion on the malleability of steal!
14:25:35 <oerjan> the next time elliott complains about botspam in the channel, just mention updog
14:26:05 <oerjan> boily: it's ok you don't need to ask the the question of people who aren't staying
14:26:29 <boily> oerjan: but it's fun...
14:26:34 <oerjan> it's supposed to be the center of mass of #esoteric, not people-who-once-passed-through-#esoteric
14:26:59 <Roujo> So the Regular Center of Mass, not the Transient one
14:27:08 <boily> I know. I only log the Relevänt Coördinates of People who Stay Here Enough to be Graphed by Fizzie.
14:27:37 * boily shudders in terror at the memories of transient responses in unstable dynamic systems
14:28:02 -!- elliott has joined.
14:28:26 <boily> oerjan: and besides, I assume temporary visitors have no measurable mass.
14:28:56 <oerjan> boily: well they're basically virtual particles, so presumably they borrow mass from the vacuum.
14:29:54 <boily> in light of that multidimensional eldritch amplitudedron, that confuses me even moreso.
14:30:34 <oerjan> it's just yog sototh, nothing to be upset about
14:31:21 <boily> oh. I was worried there for a moment.
14:37:12 -!- updog has joined.
14:38:53 <boily> uhm. «updog (~updog@modemcable226.119-70-69.static.videotron.ca) a rejoint #esoteric».
14:39:02 <boily> subtle. real subtle.
14:39:30 <oerjan> i guess it was inevatble.
14:40:06 <oerjan> in fact i considered suggesting it, until i remembered how much trouble it was last time
14:41:24 <oerjan> hm .ca, perhaps this isn't elliott's work
14:41:51 <Jafet> How much trouble is it if no one actually says updog
14:42:14 <oerjan> don't worry, that's not the troublesome part iirc
14:43:20 <boily> oerjan: it's hosted somewhere on a server probably southeast from downtown Montréal.
14:43:46 <oerjan> boily: why do you think i'm glaring at Roujo
14:44:07 <Roujo> I have no idea what you're talking about
14:44:12 <Roujo> There's no server involved at all
14:44:22 <oerjan> Roujo: neither did elliott, last time
14:45:37 <Roujo> What's the worst that could happen? =P
14:46:04 <oerjan> DON'T ASK THAT QUESTION
14:46:20 <oerjan> sheesh, you'd think he doesn't even _read_ tvtropes
14:46:25 <boily> 69.70.0.0/16 belongs to Vidéotron. 69.70.96.0/19 is tied to a small hosting provider, linked to the Parti Québécois. the nearest good phở is in Chinatown.
14:46:50 * boily touches wood. no way I'm gonna get jinxed by an untroper.
14:46:54 <oerjan> Roujo: i see boily is slowly revealing all the important relevant information
14:47:19 <ais523> oerjan: or – if BSD is involved – xkcd
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14:48:21 <ais523> this probably explains /dev/null/nethack, actually, which uses BSD exclusively
14:48:30 <ais523> because it's run by NetHack players, they know how to deal with sharks
14:48:44 <ais523> but the extra effort that takes subtracts from the time actually getting the tournament running
14:49:24 <oerjan> ais523: congratulations, you've managed to be too obscure to google
14:50:02 <ais523> oerjan: because I don't rely on Google, I don't structure my sentences in such a way that Google can easily explain what they're about
14:50:07 <ais523> which part were you trying to google?
14:50:46 <oerjan> well i have only got to the xkcd part
14:51:34 <ais523> http://www.xkcd.com/349/
14:52:19 <ais523> not a direct link, but the explainkcd page about it was the third result for "xkcd bsd sharks"
14:52:26 <Roujo> From broken desktop to sharks in 14 hours flat
14:53:07 <oerjan> ais523: well i was trying to include "worst that could happen"
14:53:20 <ais523> this conversation is probably some deeply profound statement about search engines
14:53:23 <ais523> I'm just not sure what
14:54:09 <oerjan> `run quote reference #also this
14:54:11 <HackEgo> 88) <Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
14:54:39 <HackEgo> 798) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
14:54:49 <oerjan> did someone remove the quote.
14:55:19 <boily> speaking of quotes, what should I down about those from People that Left the Channel and Probably will Never be Back?
14:55:59 <Roujo> For they shouldn't be forgotten
14:56:59 <ais523> `pastlog ais523.*cultur
14:57:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18809
14:57:17 <HackEgo> 798) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
14:57:26 <HackEgo> 2011-08-24.txt:23:42:16: <elliott> ais523: also, rich for you to say essentially "how can <PERSON> not know <ITEM OF POP CULTURE>"
14:58:50 <boily> Roujo: I'll lump them in a section, then.
14:59:47 <oerjan> `pastlog ais523.*obscure
14:59:55 <HackEgo> 2008-02-06.txt:17:17:28: <ehird`> ais523: i think yours is a bit too obscure, yeah
15:00:46 <ais523> you need more search terms than that
15:00:51 <ais523> what are you trying to find, anyway?
15:00:56 <ais523> or do you need to find it to know what it is?
15:00:59 <Roujo> An obscure quote, probably
15:01:24 <oerjan> yes, i don't remember the wording used
15:01:49 <oerjan> in fact, i vaguely recall having trouble searching for it before
15:05:13 <boily> Deewiant: who are you, so that I may not have to lump you and that you may Shine with your Own Section?
15:05:26 <oerjan> `pastlog ais523.*obscure.*reference
15:05:35 <HackEgo> 2009-04-29.txt:17:11:51: <ehird> ais523: OBSCURE REFERENCE BUDDIES *HI5*
15:05:56 <ais523> `pastlog \<ais523\>.*obscure.*reference
15:06:05 <HackEgo> 2012-03-04.txt:05:10:37: <HackEgo> 2011-12-01.txt:21:31:28: <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
15:06:22 <ais523> oerjan: is it that one that you're looking for?
15:07:48 <Deewiant> boily: I am the world's number one expert on Befunge and Funge-98.
15:07:53 <oerjan> funnily, it returned a previous search attempt instead of the original
15:08:46 <boily> `learn Deewiant is the world's number one expert on Befunge and Funge-98.
15:09:28 <ais523> yeah, I think I agree with Deewiant there
15:09:47 <ais523> for ages, the ontopic discussion here was sustained via Deewiant and Vorpal discussing Funge-98
15:10:01 <Deewiant> I can't remember who said that originally. (I know it wasn't me.)
15:10:02 <Taneb> We've had on-topic discussion here?
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15:10:32 <ais523> it used to be ontopic all the time
15:10:46 <ais523> then it stopped, and I stopped going here because there was no reason to stay
15:10:47 <boily> Taneb: the channel is Old. I'm digging deep into its History as we speak.
15:10:52 <ais523> or, well, there used to be offtopic discussion too
15:10:58 <ais523> but it was a smaller proportion
15:11:04 <ais523> (it was also rather more distasteful)
15:11:12 <ais523> `pastlog expert on Befunge and Funge-98
15:11:13 <Gregor> On-topic conversation will not be tolerated.
15:11:17 <Taneb> `quote did you even read the bible
15:11:23 <Deewiant> ais523: It probably wasn't in those words.
15:11:25 <ais523> Gregor: do you really want to drive me away from the channel again?
15:12:05 <Taneb> I ought to create another language
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15:14:38 <Taneb> Anyone want to try and collab?
15:14:47 <Taneb> And usher forth a new age of esolangs!
15:14:51 <Roujo> What's the idea? =)
15:15:08 <Taneb> Now all we need is a cool idea
15:15:54 <Taneb> Something to do with modulo arithmetic?
15:16:01 <ais523> most of my ideas were either a) made into esolangs, b) turned out to be almost impossible to make into esolangs, or c) I haven't had the time to work out the details of
15:16:27 <Taneb> Most of my ideas were either a) stupid, or b) stupid and also made into esolangs
15:16:52 <ais523> I dunno, even stupid ideas can be interesting esolangs
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15:16:56 <ais523> see Quiler, for instance
15:17:16 <ais523> also I just searched that on Bulbapedia rather than Esolang by mistake
15:17:19 <ais523> no results, unsurprisingly
15:17:49 <Roujo> An Esolang made out of Pokemon!
15:18:17 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PokéArena
15:18:22 <boily> a dataflow / visual programming of the bastard child of Maple, Mathematica and Matlab!
15:18:32 <boily> s/g o/g version o/
15:18:38 <ais523> unfinished, by the look of things
15:18:45 <Roujo> That sounds a bit unwieldy =P
15:19:14 <ais523> you can see me and zzo38 trying to make PokéArena more realistic on the talk page
15:19:31 <Roujo> I was thinking more along the lines of pokemon being variables, with attacks being keywords (the effect depending on the type)
15:20:50 <Roujo> ais523: Yeah, like you said on the talk page =P
15:21:15 <Taneb> We could start over with a new Pokémon-themed esolang
15:21:54 <ais523> boily: typo on page 34 of the quotes PDF: there's a ~ that's rendering as a nbsp rather than a ~
15:22:38 <Taneb> Call it "Battle" or something
15:23:20 <ais523> the problem is that there's only 6 Pokémon on a team, with 4 attacks, 1 item, 1 ability each
15:23:26 <ais523> putting hard limits on the size of the program
15:23:30 <ais523> but that's interesting in its own right
15:23:52 <boily> ais523: nice catch. I'll have it replaced soon.
15:24:06 <boily> ais523: say, do you have a github account, so that you may commit it yourself?
15:24:11 <Taneb> Well, each Pokémon 6 stats, an experience value, a nature...
15:24:34 <ais523> I have a mostly irrational hatred of github
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15:24:58 <Taneb> ais523, yes, I swear this is about the third time you've come to this revelation
15:25:11 <Taneb> And this morning I registered nvd
15:25:23 <ais523> is atriq a rot-13'd ngevd?
15:26:00 <boily> ais523: time to face you fears. otherwise, spiders, your mom, and all that psychanalysis stuff.
15:26:05 <ais523> also, did you ever design that Rummy mixed with Breakout language?
15:26:08 <Taneb> "gnaro" sounds like it ought to be a Pokémon
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15:26:16 <Taneb> ais523, I don't think so
15:26:24 <Taneb> I can't remember the context for that
15:26:33 <HackEgo> 435) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
15:26:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rot26: not found
15:26:42 <Taneb> It was me badly misunderstanding something
15:27:07 <ais523> Roujo: it's called `echo
15:27:24 <ais523> also, "rot13 four times" is one of the stupidest of the Slashdot memes
15:28:05 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
15:28:13 <Roujo> `rot13 Slashdot | rot13 | rot13 | rot13
15:28:15 <HackEgo> Fynfuqbg | ebg13 | ebg13 | ebg13
15:28:22 <Roujo> `run rot13 Slashdot | rot13 | rot13 | rot13
15:28:30 <Taneb> What would a rummy-mixed-with-breakout esolang look like?
15:28:37 <ais523> Rummy, and Breakout, presumably
15:28:56 <ais523> I guess the ball would bounce off the cards
15:28:57 <boily> Jafet: who are you? are you Deewiant? do you want to be undescribed, lumped or separated?
15:29:16 <Taneb> Okay, in Rummy you have to collect (say 7 card hands) a 7-card straight or a 3 of a kind and a 4 of a kind
15:29:31 <ais523> something like that, yes
15:29:33 <Taneb> In breakout, you have to bounce a ball on a paddle to destroy bricks
15:30:06 <ais523> I guess the rummy part could have limited storage and be used for control flow and the like
15:30:17 <ais523> and the breakout part could be for the unlimited storage
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15:30:50 <Taneb> well, I shall certainly think about this
15:30:59 <Taneb> But now I must leave!
15:31:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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15:37:35 <boily> the early recorded history of the channel seems to be centered on sex...
15:38:12 <ais523> I tended to stay out of those discussions
15:39:04 <Roujo> I'm surprised that Armok isn't on the Wiki
15:40:04 <Roujo> https://github.com/Frib/Armok
15:40:23 <ais523> actually, I think the Deewiant era is where fungot came from
15:40:23 <fungot> ais523: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
15:40:32 <ais523> oh, must be set to chrono trigger mode
15:41:30 <boily> ais523: but fungot is fizzie's!
15:41:31 <fungot> boily: but, we are far outnumbered! princess! i see you're dressing...normally again! chaos confuses you into attacking allies! a little tough on friendships! blind you can't see too well, ho!! see ya around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca
15:41:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:41:52 <ais523> Bike: yeah, fizzie was using the improvements in Funge-98 interpreter design to test out fungot on
15:41:52 <fungot> ais523: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono!
15:41:59 <Deewiant> At least I dimly remember fungot appearing at some point
15:42:57 <ais523> well fungot had to be created at some point in time
15:42:57 <fungot> ais523: yes, it's been awhile prometheus!
15:43:05 <ais523> it hasn't just existed forever
15:43:08 <ais523> (also, relevant answer, neat)
15:43:24 <Deewiant> It could have been here before me, in which case I wouldn't remember its appearance
15:43:42 <Deewiant> (Or after, but I haven't left yet and it's already here.)
15:45:47 <fizzie> ais523: Perhaps some kind of a stable time loop.
15:46:18 <fizzie> ais523: In 2047, I'll use HackEgo's `send-to-the-past command to send it back to whenever it was it appeared.
15:46:34 <ais523> fizzie: you're getting /very/ close to Feather territory there…
15:46:54 <fizzie> Also in 2047: EgoBot still won't be merged in HackEgo.
15:47:02 <ais523> Gregor: why did I get five contradictory responses to /ctcp version?
15:47:04 <Deewiant> No need for an unimplemented HackEgo feature, we already have TRDS
15:47:05 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
15:47:24 <HackEgo> df: Warning: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory \ Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on \ - 0 0 0 - /
15:47:32 <boily> in 2047, Hong Kong will be merged into China.
15:48:14 <Gregor> ais523: They don't ALL contradict.
15:48:32 <ais523> even the xchat ones all give different processor speeds
15:48:40 <ais523> also, it turned out not to be called Windows 9 after all
15:49:30 <fizzie> xchat's "processor speed in ctcp version" thing is kind of silly.
15:50:12 <fizzie> (They could just put the vpenis.sh output in it directly.)
15:51:17 <Gregor> find /proc -type f -exec cat {} ';'
15:51:55 <ais523> are there any -type f in /proc?
15:51:58 <ais523> also you forgot the `run
15:52:14 <Gregor> Since that wasn't intended for HackEgo.
15:52:20 <Gregor> It was a suggestion of how to make a CTCP VERSION line.
15:52:37 <Gregor> Also, of course, most of /proc is files.
15:52:47 <ais523> yeah, but I thought none of it was regular files
15:52:57 <ais523> I guess it might be full of irregular files pretending to be regular files
15:57:08 <boily> @tell asiekierka lumps and bumps and sections and stuff.
16:01:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27727
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16:09:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: does Dwarf Fortress even allow you to craft items out of lava?
16:09:51 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
16:14:14 <Jafet> It allows you to direct dwarves to craft items out of former lava.
16:16:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
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16:20:24 <doesthiswork> so I've reading about skousen's analogical modeling, and I think it would be a fun logic language. You could tell it 2+2=4, 3+3=6 and 3+2=5 so when you asked it what 2+3 equals half the time it would say 4 and half the time 6
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16:24:22 <ais523> it just looks for the closest match and randomizes between them?
16:25:56 <doesthiswork> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogical_Modeling
16:26:54 <doesthiswork> it finds the set of generalized matches that minimizes internal dissagreement
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16:31:39 <doesthiswork> there are a couple other algorithms that do about the same thing, but they are used for modeling how people generalize a set of examples to categorize new instances.
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16:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: does Dwarf Fortress even allow you to craft items out of lava?
16:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> it does let you pour it on nobles making unreasonable demands
16:39:27 <ais523> is that your preferred method of disposing of them?
16:39:32 <Taneb> And you can cool lava and make obsidian items
16:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, although admittedly i never actually implemented it
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16:44:55 <ais523> I thought it was more common to drown them, or create rooms that they would fall out of
16:45:08 <ais523> incidentally, is it possible to exile dwarves, rather than just killing them?
16:45:14 <ais523> locking them out of the fortress, or the like?
16:46:07 -!- aloril has joined.
16:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> if they're alive, and their mandates aren't met, they'll still be able to issue random punishments
16:47:02 <ais523> and people will actually pay attention to them?
16:47:12 <ais523> this seems unrealistic
16:50:21 <Roujo> Well. It *is* pretty realistic at times.
16:50:59 <Roujo> And yet dwarves will go outside, one after the other, in the middle of a siege, just to try and get that wool sock that's lying aroud
16:53:44 <Roujo> Do you guys know about the Armok programming language?
16:55:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> and people will actually pay attention to them?
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16:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> so actually you can completely neuter them just by not establishing one, but that has other disadvantages
16:58:54 <Roujo> myname: https://github.com/Frib/Armok
16:59:25 <Roujo> No nobles yet, but still =P
17:01:17 <Koen> dwarves handle rocks... you can get rocks by mining... that makes me wondering, is that a zero-sum programming language?
17:01:45 <Koen> as in the only way to increment a variable is to decrement another, or something
17:02:05 <myname> mining creates 64 rocks from one block
17:02:09 <Koen> and do we have other zero-sum esolangs?
17:02:31 <myname> that would indeed be interesting
17:02:59 <Roujo> Call it Equilibrium or something
17:03:03 <Koen> to be original, imagine the following brainfuck-derivative
17:03:40 <Koen> there's an unbounded tape of -128 to +127 non-wrapping cells, all starting at zero
17:04:07 <Koen> and hmmm there's a toggle which can be PLUS or MINUS
17:04:18 <Koen> and when it's at plus, the - instruction is a no-op
17:04:27 <Koen> and when it's at minus, the + instruction is a no-op
17:04:42 <myname> you could say, + in your language is like +>-< in BF
17:04:44 <Koen> and instructions are the same as in brainfuck except every usage of + or - toggles the toggle
17:04:50 <myname> there you have zero-sum
17:05:02 <Koen> hmmm yeah I'm afraid
17:05:16 <Koen> okay it's not so interesting then
17:05:22 <Roujo> Koen's version sounds a lot more impractical
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17:06:37 <Koen> Roujo: yeah but you could convert any brainfuck program into this derivative by replacing + with +>-<, - with ->+<, > with >> and < with <<
17:06:48 <Koen> (except for the non-wrapping thing)
17:07:21 <Koen> so that's boring
17:07:37 <Koen> okay what about:
17:07:40 <Roujo> Just make it so that odd cells can only be incremented
17:07:43 <Koen> every cell starts as 1
17:07:50 <Roujo> And even cells can only be incremented
17:07:53 <Koen> and cells can only be positive
17:08:03 <Roujo> even cells can only be decremented
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17:08:28 <Koen> therefore you can't double every cell with its negative
17:08:37 <Koen> (because there are no negatives)
17:08:58 <Roujo> Everytime you increment a cell, a random sector of your HD is decremented
17:09:15 <Koen> okay you could start with an initialization loop that fills a lot of cells with +128 but that would be reaaaaaally impractical
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17:10:01 <Roujo> "Note: This interpreter must be run as root. Don't ask why. Just let it be."
17:10:19 <myname> write directly to /dev/sda
17:10:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:10:34 <myname> make it default on suicide linux
17:13:36 <ais523> it's hard to make a BF deriv that a) isn't stupid, and b) you can't trivially compile BF into
17:13:41 <ais523> although not impossible
17:15:48 <Koen> ais523: well, replacing the tape with a single tape makes it equivalent to push-down automata, and therefore you can't compile bf into it
17:15:56 <Koen> with a single stack
17:16:07 <Roujo> What if you replace the tape with a punch-card
17:16:25 <ais523> but that's not that interesting either IMO
17:16:33 <ais523> I guess a Splinter→BF-PDA compiler could be interesting
17:16:50 <Koen> if it's not interesting why does it have three or more pages on the wiki?
17:16:55 <Koen> brainstack, stackfuck, etc
17:17:41 <myname> brainqueue would be much more interesting
17:21:34 <ais523> <Koen> if it's not interesting why does it have three or more pages on the wiki? ← because BF derivative
17:23:25 <Koen> ha I like the BF-PDA page
17:23:34 <Koen> "possible modifications"
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17:24:00 <Koen> aka "this is brainfuck with a stack, you got the general idea, do whatever you want with the details"
17:24:02 <Roujo> ais523: What's with the BF-derivative hate? =P
17:24:20 <HackEgo> 2011-11-09.txt:06:33:57: <elliott> And delegate the brickbraining to me.
17:24:22 <Koen> I think it's more like BF-derivative sadness
17:24:44 <ais523> basically we'd like the esolangs to be more interesting than yet more pointless derivations of BF
17:24:56 <ais523> there are some good ones (PaintFuck is a good one I didn't write)
17:25:00 <ais523> but plenty more stupid ones
17:25:27 <Roujo> Ah, so it's a matter of them being unoriginal, then?
17:26:26 <Taneb> Roujo, phantom-hoover.tumblr.com
17:26:30 <Koen> "there are some good ones, and also one good one I didn't write"
17:27:59 <ais523> Koen: there's more than one good one I didn't write
17:28:08 <ais523> but I thought that would be an amusing way to word the sentence
17:28:27 <Koen> be reassured I was amused
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17:31:14 <Roujo> >It replaces part of boolfuck with words such as “derp” and “herp”
17:31:51 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kPRA0W1kECg
17:33:54 <Roujo> Phantom_Hoover: Quick sort is amazing
17:34:32 <Roujo> Merge sort sounds like good old computer sounds you hear in movies
17:35:18 <Roujo> Holy crap radix sort
17:39:08 <Roujo> What if we just sorted the actual bits?
17:39:19 <Roujo> Would it be quicker?
17:39:45 <Roujo> (Nevermind, that was a bad joke)
17:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> well basically it's a question of working out how many 1's there are in the input
17:40:58 <Jafet> It's more efficient to count the 0 bits
17:41:30 <Roujo> Why would it be more efficient? =P
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17:43:29 <Roujo> I have no idea what Bitonic sort is doing
17:44:17 <Roujo> Awwww, they didn't let it finish D:
17:44:58 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:48:05 <Roujo> It's not the worst algorithm I've heard of, though =P
17:48:17 <Roujo> There's also Intelligent Design Sort
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17:48:53 <boily> I don't know who crystal-cola is, but I like them. proper LaTeX in their replies.
17:49:06 <Roujo> Oh, there we go: Miracle Sort
17:50:48 <Roujo> Intelligent Design Sort: The probability that the input list would be in the order it's in is 1/(n!). That probability is so small that the list *must* be that way for a reason. To try to sort the list further shows ignorance of the Sorter's ways.
17:51:57 <boily> @tell NihilistDandy can I extract some kind of biography from your person, so that you may be paraquoted?
17:55:37 -!- Bike has joined.
17:57:38 <fizzie> "New in version 3.2" "3.1.3-12+squeeze1" oh no
18:05:57 <boily> copumpkin: who are you? where do you come from? are you a living entity? what is the effect of capitalism on the growth of birch trees?
18:07:45 <Bike> i'd say that effect is rather uneven
18:09:25 <boily> who knows. maybe there's a correlation between the two! (r² < 0.01)
18:11:41 <Bike> r squared of negative zero
18:16:49 <boily> why did I /nicked myself groily...
18:17:00 <Roujo> I didn't see anything
18:17:12 <Roujo> It's been a while, really
18:17:28 <boily> there is some weird stuff going on in the disparate quotes...
18:23:43 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:30:55 <Roujo> Huh, sleepsort. Sounds nice enough.
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18:33:23 <Koen> insertion sort looks like it's using dichotomy to find where to insert the elements
18:33:31 <Koen> is that a thing? dichotomy insertion sort
18:34:29 <zzo38> I have used insertion sort mainly when the data to sort isn't all available at once, it can do one at a time, sorting it into another buffer
18:34:46 <zzo38> I don't know about dichotomy insertion sort, though.
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18:37:15 <fizzie> Koen: I don't know what a "dichotomy" means in that context, but if you mean it determines the insertion position with a binary search (over the already-sorted part), I think that's called "binary insertion sort".
18:37:48 <Koen> though such an insertion in an array sounds kinda dumb since you have to move everything anyway
18:38:05 <Roujo> Use a linked list! =D
18:38:08 <Koen> and cutting a list in half usually isn't O(1) either
18:38:13 <Roujo> Doubly linked, too!
18:38:35 <Koen> so I guess you'd need some kind of tree structure for that to be efficient
18:38:37 <Bike> quintuply linked is the way to go
18:38:49 <Koen> so it sounds like we just reinvented heap sort
18:38:49 <Roujo> Finding the spot to insert it in would be O(n), actually putting it in would be O(1)
18:38:57 <fizzie> Koen: It can be a good idea if the comparisons are expensive but swaps are not. (List of pointers to long strings or whatever.)
18:39:06 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/tutorial-conditions.html#conditions these are pretty weird
18:39:10 <Koen> Roujo: O(n) dichotomy doesn't sound very useful
18:39:21 <kmc> they're like... dynamically bound delimited continuations? i don't even know
18:39:23 <Roujo> Oh, wait, you're doing a binary search
18:39:41 <Koen> fizzie: hmm I guess that makes sense
18:40:05 <Bike> kmc: cool, it's like CL's.
18:40:31 <kmc> CL has this?
18:40:42 <kmc> does it work well?
18:41:11 <Koen> A successfully trapped condition causes execution to continue at the site of the error, as though no error occurred.
18:41:40 <Bike> basically when you "handle" a condition you install a type-function pair in the dynamic environment, and then when an error happens it looks through the dynamic environment to find a pair with the type of the error
18:41:57 <Koen> so you can make a code that has "x / y" somewhere in it, and wrap it in a "try ... with Division_by_zero -> 3" and if y = 0 it will act as if x / y = 3 ?
18:42:04 <Roujo> "on error resume;"
18:42:07 <Bike> it's really very useful, like for example, when i had an irc bot it would raise an "i don't understand this type of message" condition
18:42:20 <Bike> and in my code i just had it handle that as ignore and continue and it worked great
18:42:20 <boily> I think all the quotes from anybody ever are currently covered.
18:42:33 <Roujo> "throw new IDontEvenException("wat");"
18:42:34 <Bike> using an external irc library i didn't want to mess with, i mean
18:42:53 <Roujo> boily: Congrats! =)
18:43:02 <Bike> Koen: i think so.
18:43:14 <elliott> conditions freak me out a bit
18:43:17 <elliott> they feel a little spaghetti
18:43:29 <Bike> yeah they're easy to fuck up probably
18:43:29 <Koen> "it's really very useful, like for example, when the key doesn't go in the lock I just have to force and it works great"
18:43:30 <elliott> also they kinda break RT :P
18:43:44 <Bike> thank goodness rust has like nine types of error handling apparently
18:44:17 <kmc> Bike: just like haskell! i feel so at home
18:44:28 <elliott> because (x / 0) is _|_ but then it's also 123 or 346534563456536 instead depending on the surrounding context
18:44:36 <elliott> well, I guess you could just separate asynchronous exceptions out as a separate concern.
18:45:00 <Koen> (btw is it me or did they drastically reduce the number of elements to sort when showing off particularly inefficient sorts?)
18:45:08 <Bike> CL: (handler-case (/ 4 3) (division-by-zero () 3)) => 4/3, (handler-case (/ 4 0) (division-by-zero () 3)) => 3
18:45:13 <kmc> i should probably learn how to use delimited continuations one day
18:45:37 <elliott> kmc: have you used Cont? :P
18:45:44 <kmc> in Haskell? yes
18:46:13 <Bike> have you used Cont in Rust!
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18:46:20 <Bike> that's rust-factorial
18:46:39 <Bike> exponentially rustier for the hands-on ninja developer.
18:46:49 <elliott> kmc: well, delimited continuations are just Cont, pretty much.
18:46:55 <Koen> gnome sorts looks like it's trying to do insertion sort but the insertion is very approximative
18:47:14 <kmc> elliott: this is my skeptical face
18:47:25 <Bike> haskell is the mother of all, kmc.
18:47:37 <elliott> A sample shift/reset code in Haskell, in the Cont monad -- the monad for delimited control
18:47:38 <kmc> bubble-insertion sort
18:47:47 <elliott> reset :: Cont a a -> Cont w a
18:47:47 <elliott> shift :: ((a -> w) -> Cont w w) -> Cont w a
18:48:00 <elliott> I don't have an Oleg face but I'd be using it if I did
18:48:09 <boily> Roujo: just had to merge some stuff and do minor corrections. please check the new PDF.
18:48:11 <Koen> bitonic sort: merge sort except the merging part reshuffles the list
18:48:27 <kmc> dymaxion sort
18:48:28 <boily> wasn't there something on page 34 with a tilde being incorrectly parsed?
18:48:32 <ais523> oh, bitonic sort is awesome
18:48:33 <Roujo> `run fetch https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
18:48:35 <HackEgo> bash: fetch: command not found
18:48:41 <Roujo> `fetch https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
18:48:41 <ais523> it's one of the most parallelizable of sorting algorithms
18:48:46 <HackEgo> 2013-09-19 18:48:45 URL:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf [476823/476823] -> "wisdom.pdf" [1]
18:48:53 <HackEgo> %PDF-1.5 \ % \ 2 0 obj << \ /Type /ObjStm \ /N 100 \ /First 798 \ /Length 1046 \ /Filter /FlateDecode \ >> \ stream \ xڅmo6SD.Euiv
18:49:03 <Roujo> boily: Looks like garbage. hth.
18:49:05 <ais523> and it's pretty similar to mergesort in how it works
18:49:20 <Koen> awwwwwwwwwww bogosort
18:49:29 <Phantom_Hoover> wp just gives us this helpful diagram http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/BitonicSort1.svg
18:49:33 * boily slaps Roujo with a slightly damp soviet-era sorting algorithm
18:52:22 <fizzie> Bike: "While the jth record is being processed during a straight insertion sort, we compare its key with about j/2 of the previously sorted keys, on the average; -- [We can use a binary search.] This method is called /binary insertion/; it was mentioned by John Mauchly as early as 1964, in the first published discussion of computer sorting. The unfortunate difficulty with binary insertion is ...
18:52:28 <fizzie> ... that it solves only half of the problem; after we have found where record R_j is to be inserted, we still need to move about (1/2)j of the previously sorted records in order to make room for R_j, so the total running time is still essentially proportional to N^2." -- D. Knuth, /The Art of Computer Programming, Vol. 3, Sorting and Searching/. Second Edition, Addison-Wesley, 1998, chapter ...
18:53:21 <fizzie> The comment was so long that I couldn't see the attribution line any more. (Don't know where the Bike came from.)
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18:55:24 <Koen> but then does he uses that to think "okay, we need a data structure that allows dichotomy search, but also has O(1) insertion?
18:55:41 <Koen> and come up with some tree sort or something
18:55:57 <zzo38> boily: This PDF won't load in my computer; do you have another file?
18:57:38 <oerjan> Roujo: the curse of zzo38's setup
18:58:19 <fizzie> Koen: No. After describing the two-way insertion sort (another trick), it continues with shellsort and other things.
18:58:51 <zzo38> Do you have a file other than PDF?
18:58:53 <Koen> ohhhhhhhh silly me I thought "shellsort" stood for "the sort command in the shell"
18:59:19 <boily> zzo38: how come? what's happening?
18:59:34 <boily> it opens with okular.
18:59:41 <fizzie> The other day, I generated a PDF file locally and tried to submit it to IEEE. and got a "this file could not be converted to PDF" error back.
18:59:46 <Roujo> zzo38: There's the original LaTeX file, if you want it
18:59:48 <oerjan> boily: i recommend sending him a dvi
19:00:07 <fizzie> Turns out the pdfTeX-1.40.13 I have here generates a PDF 1.5 file, while the pdfTeX-1.40.10 sticks to PDF 1.4, and that made all the difference.
19:00:08 <zzo38> The source file will do fine, since I am sure I can load that in any text editor.
19:00:13 <boily> zzo38: I'll send you the dvi, and if you want you can join the github repo.
19:00:22 <zzo38> Yes, a DVI will also work fine.
19:00:50 <fizzie> s/sticks/at work sticks/
19:01:09 <Roujo> "I took the compiler less updated by, and that made all the difference"
19:01:47 <boily> zzo38: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.dvi
19:02:15 <boily> and if that doesn't work, I can make a PS.
19:04:26 <zzo38> I have downloaded it, now I have to wait for it to load the fonts
19:04:28 -!- S1 has left.
19:04:57 <boily> you guys were very creative with having me put through incongruous latex loops...
19:05:09 <boily> all the horrors I had to commit...
19:05:24 <boily> (at least, there's a \photon{} somewhere.)
19:05:52 -!- S1 has joined.
19:06:02 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
19:06:37 <boily> that one was an easily dodgeable open attempt at trying to make my Glorious Document not compile.
19:06:55 <Roujo> That wasn't the goal, no
19:06:55 <zzo38> Even the DVI doesn't work; dvitype crashed too
19:07:20 <zzo38> So did Yap and DVIOUT
19:08:04 <boily> \ldots{} \ldots{} \ldots{}
19:08:14 <boily> zzo38: just what kind of setup do you have???
19:09:28 <Roujo> <oerjan> Roujo: the curse of zzo38's setup
19:09:46 <Bike> AnotherTest: what do you want to know?
19:09:59 -!- S1 has quit (Client Quit).
19:10:11 <boily> zzo38: what is your github account?
19:10:14 <fizzie> Koen: It does describe quite many variants of insertion sort, including the linked list insertion sort, and the tree-structured arrangement. ("This possibility was first explored about 1957 by D. J. Wheeler -- A similar but simpler tree-insertion scheme, using binary trees, was devised by C. M. Berners-Lee about 1958 -- Since the binary tree method and its refinements are quite important for ...
19:10:20 <fizzie> ... searching as well as sorting, they are discussed at length in Section 6.2.2".) The whole Shapter 5.2.1. ("Sorting by Insertion") is 26 pages long.
19:10:58 <zzo38> boily: I don't have any.
19:11:02 <Koen> the Shah Peter
19:11:07 <fizzie> I wrote "Chapter", then noticed it's called "Section" for references in the text itself, and somehow thought just changing the first letter was sufficient.
19:11:14 <Bike> You have done so.
19:12:43 <boily> zzo38: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.tar.bz2
19:13:52 <oerjan> C. M. Berners-Lee, any relation to Tim?
19:14:04 -!- Yonkie has joined.
19:15:06 <fizzie> oerjan: His father, I think.
19:15:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:15:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:15:25 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:15:34 <oerjan> hm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_Berners-Lee has no M
19:15:39 <boily> zzo38: I hope downloading the sources didn't make your machine crash...
19:15:44 <fizzie> oerjan: See the External Links section.
19:16:06 <zzo38> boily: It didn't crash (although I haven't extracted the archive yet).
19:16:12 -!- S1 has joined.
19:16:40 <Koen> heap sort is kinda twisted - we're gonna take the elements from the array to put them in a tree, then take the elements from the tree to put them back in the array - except the tree is stored in the array, so're basically we're completely reorganizing the array into a still-not-sorted-but-with-some-logic-you-cant-see-yet array that will be easier to sort in the future
19:16:51 <fizzie> oerjan: (Well, all the "C. M. Berners-Lee" references. I don't know what the M stands for.)
19:17:20 <zzo38> boily: Most of the files have strange filename and other things probably not needed so I only extracted the *.tex files; those ones will load fine in a text editor.
19:17:32 <S1> Besides... Is there still interest in a programm that's fed with program code and determines the language(s) the code is written in? Cause I've got a concept.
19:18:33 <zzo38> S1: OK, although such thing wouldn't always work
19:18:43 <zzo38> It can work sometimes, though.
19:18:47 <zzo38> It might be worth a try.
19:19:07 <Koen> then you can add it to google translate
19:19:15 <fizzie> "The marriage of Conway M Berners-Lee and Mary L Woods is registered at Hampstead, Middlesex 3rd quarter 1954 vol 5c page 1925 --" it seems a mystery, lots of references but none mentioning the expansion.
19:19:20 <fizzie> I'm sure it's listed *somewhere*.
19:19:21 <Roujo> "Google Code Translate"
19:20:02 <boily> zzo38: you only need the .tex files to compile the stuff. the source/ folder is a local copy of the wisdom DB. README.md is a readme.
19:20:04 <zzo38> Some programming languages can even vary their syntax, such as Forth and TeX
19:20:18 <fizzie> "http://sprunge.us/bXPJ Tim talks of his parents.
19:20:56 <zzo38> boily: Well, yes I have only extracted the *.tex so it is OK, but of course to compile it, I would also need LaTeX and all of the packages and fonts you used. I can just read it in the text editor it is fine, though.
19:21:33 <boily> zzo38: it is a fact.
19:22:04 <Roujo> By now, just `pastequotes? =P
19:22:27 <Roujo> Oh wait, boily added more than just the quotes. Nevermind ^^
19:22:55 <boily> I added EVERYTHING!
19:25:03 <boily> bright green is a little bit to light, imho...
19:25:25 <Roujo> A little bit is lightable enough, isn't it?
19:25:56 <boily> s/to/too/, says I.
19:26:15 <boily> and now I'm stuck with a Supertramp piece in my head.
19:26:34 <boily> (“give a little bit... ♪”)
19:27:13 <boily> woah. the phở uses the right font. I... don't know how it happened.
19:29:31 <zzo38> I think there might be a few duplicates? (Or maybe I am wrong)
19:29:47 <Koen> ais523: in splinter, if a capital letter is followed by '{', then it's the store-to-splinter instruction, and if it's not followed by '{', then it's the push-splinter-to-program instruction?
19:29:48 <zzo38> Should you change "Plain TeX" into "Plain \TeX" to print using the TeX logo?
19:30:50 <S1> Okay then if anyone is still interested in the Esolang identifier concept I made: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11001067/EsolangIdentifier%20Concept.txt
19:30:54 <ais523> haven't Splintered for ages
19:31:15 <Koen> [insert turtles joke]
19:31:45 <boily> zzo38: the duplicates are a conscious decision. if multiple people locute a quote, then I put it under each relevant section.
19:32:22 <boily> but yeah, I'll \TeXify the references to Plain TeX.
19:32:47 <Roujo> `complain \TeX isn't used-- oh, nevermind
19:32:49 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
19:32:58 <Taneb> `slist Terezi sniffs out a conspiracty
19:33:00 <HackEgo> slist Terezi sniffs out a conspiracty: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
19:33:11 <Koen> S1: how about first trying to identify if keywords are actually words ("if", "while", etc.) or rather single-char ops (like brainfuck) and then moving on to identifying them?
19:34:12 <S1> Koen: for what? ;)
19:34:24 <Koen> well if keywords are actually words then you can split the program into tokens according to whitespace
19:34:29 <Roujo> What does `slist do?
19:34:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:34:39 <Koen> but if you're parsing befunge then every char is a token
19:35:18 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
19:35:42 <zzo38> What happens if you are using \verb! to quote something that contains a exclamation mark?
19:36:39 <S1> Koen: I don't differ between single-char keywords and multi-char keywords. There could be a language someday (or with high probability already is) that does so, too.
19:36:40 <boily> the `? list is dead?
19:36:44 <Taneb> `learn list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
19:36:50 <boily> zzo38: I use \verb+...+.
19:37:19 <S1> Koen: Whitespace has to be detected properly, too. I would not split anything.
19:37:31 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
19:37:43 <Roujo> There we go! Bots can have fun too!
19:37:55 <S1> Koen: And maybe some keywords even overlap... Like for example in a polyglot
19:38:14 <boily> zzo38: I'm having some problems with overfull hboxen, but nothing impossible to resolve.
19:38:21 <Koen> S1: well I can think of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Alight which is especially weird to parse
19:38:21 <Taneb> "hello world" is a perfectly valid brainfuck program
19:38:41 <zzo38> boily: Well, I know how I can fix these things in Plain TeX, not in LaTeX though
19:39:20 <AnotherTest> I think it's generally impossible to do perfect language detection, due to polyglots. Unless it reported all of the languages of course.
19:39:55 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Yes, that is one reason; there are also programming languages with varying syntax, programming languages that accept any input file, and other things.
19:40:05 <Koen> Taneb: "your mama" is a perfectly valid brainfuck program
19:40:35 <Koen> btw this is my first your mama joke ever
19:40:53 <boily> Koen: “Taneb: "your mama" is a perfectly valid brainfuck program” is a perfectly valid reason to make you choke on a ballistic bowl of gaszszszpascho.
19:41:03 <zzo38> Yes, any file without unbalanced square brackets is a valid brainfuck program.
19:41:20 <Taneb> zzo38, any text file, at least
19:42:03 <Koen> what if the program is in emmental or mascarpone and the syntax evolves to have bits in every language in the wiki
19:43:16 <S1> Koen: uh shit... well I hope that 1) there are at least some keywords in that language written horizontal. 2) the programmer is intelligent enough to recognize a 2D language -_-
19:43:35 <Koen> I hadn't thought about option 2
19:43:55 <oerjan> <boily> I don't know who crystal-cola is, but I like them. proper LaTeX in their replies.
19:44:07 <oerjan> crystal-cola has gone by many nicks.
19:44:51 * boily swears in Québécois
19:45:01 <boily> oerjan: who are they, then?
19:45:30 <oerjan> a mystery. not here at present. last time was as katla.
19:46:04 <oerjan> the unusual thing about last time is that e _didn't_ explode violently before leaving afair.
19:46:07 <Taneb> boily, that's like wiping your arse with a silk hangman's rope
19:46:46 <zzo38> Did you look at the recent CGA Collection? Do you like to write a review of it that fits in one line of the wisdom file?
19:47:15 <boily> ~duck CGA Collection
19:47:28 <oerjan> boily: j-invariant is probably also in the quotes file.
19:47:39 <boily> zzo38: what is the CGA Collection?
19:48:02 <zzo38> boily: It is a collection of public domain computer games for DOS computers.
19:48:05 <boily> oerjan: I... think I saw some of their quotes in there. peek at the last section ↑
19:48:20 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP You can download the source-codes, executables, and documentation.
19:49:24 <boily> oerjan: let me guess. j-invariant is someone else.
19:49:37 <boily> zzo38: perusing that in a few minutes... I'm reformatting Taneb.
19:52:44 <zzo38> This ZIP file will fit on a single 3.5" floppy disk.
19:53:12 <kmc> zzo38: does it need to be double density?
19:53:57 <boily> Taneb: you are all nice and shiny, now.
19:54:00 <zzo38> kmc: I haven't checked, but a 1.44MB high density disk works.
19:54:13 <boily> zzo38: does it work in qemu?
19:54:57 <boily> (or probably dosbox)
19:55:05 <zzo38> boily: I have not tried, but if it has DOS then I expect it to work.
19:55:25 <oerjan> <AnotherTest> try to do it with snowflake! <-- itym emmental
19:55:40 <Taneb> `quote fall in love
19:55:41 <HackEgo> 558) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 578) <HackEgo> 678) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love <HackEgo> 187) <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat
19:55:53 <Taneb> I can remember the context for that!
19:56:38 <oerjan> boily: j-invariant = crystal-cola
19:56:39 <Taneb> Roujo, I named all my Pokemon after people in the channel
19:56:56 <Taneb> An opponent used "attract" on the one named for Gregor
19:57:19 <zzo38> boily: OK. Do you like this?
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19:57:59 <boily> I can play sokoban!
19:58:07 <zzo38> Tell me if you made up any new levels for any of these games, too. Or even, to make up new games in QBASIC to add onto this CGA Collection!
19:59:28 <boily> THERE IS SOUND! ☺♪
19:59:29 <zzo38> There are two games mentioned in the documentation but which aren't yet completed enough to include in this CGA Collection; eventually it will be, though.
20:00:36 <zzo38> Yes, I wrote the music for these games using the MML.
20:01:30 -!- augur has joined.
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20:01:48 <zzo38> The music for the "SKEDALS" game is in Bohlen-Pierce, though. Most of them use ordinary 12-TET, however.
20:04:21 <zzo38> boily: Do you liket he other game too? Which ones did you try so far?
20:05:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:06:07 <boily> zzo38: well, I can't really try them right now, as I'm at work.
20:06:30 <boily> (yes, the PDF is part of my work. it's a periodic pause.)
20:06:35 <zzo38> boily: OK, try later perhaps, or someone try
20:06:53 <boily> the files are there, tempting me with their sexy lo-res bits.
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20:17:04 <kmc> pixellization fetish
20:18:33 <boily> kmc: I'm a japanophile. what else did you expect?
20:19:02 <zzo38> So can you play Japanese mahjong then?
20:19:14 <Roujo> `run cat japan >> boily
20:19:21 <Roujo> He plays Shogi, so yes?
20:19:26 <Koen> 45-lines ocaml splinter interpreter working
20:19:46 <boily> zzo38: I'm in a japanese mahjong club. we play every two Sundays.
20:19:54 <kmc> do androids dream of the fisherman's wife
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20:20:20 <Koen> task for next week: splinter to bf-pda
20:20:30 <boily> Roujo: come play mahjong with us :D
20:20:44 <zzo38> Can you play Washizu mahjong?
20:21:10 <zzo38> What rule variants do you use when playing mahjong?
20:21:29 <Roujo> Not-Solitaire Mahjong
20:21:42 <Roujo> Please forgive my mindblank >_>
20:22:06 <boily> zzo38: I played classic chinese at first, but now I exclusively play riichi. some members play hong kong (I should learn the rules some time).
20:22:36 <boily> zzo38: concerning variations in a single style, we don't apply kuitan nashi, we use kuikae, and sometimes play with yakitori. we never use uma, though.
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20:22:50 <Roujo> boily: We never even met yet. Mahjong might be a little too... forward?
20:23:06 <Roujo> Come by my apartment on Saturday and we'll talk about it
20:23:10 <boily> Roujo: enwéye don, viens faire un tour! on mord pas! (la plupart du temps)
20:23:34 <zzo38> I don't like kuitan nashi either; I play kuitan ari, but don't use yakitori
20:24:01 <boily> kuitan nashi is for... uhm... Roujo, how would you translate «moumoune» in English?
20:24:04 <kmc> isn't yakitori a way of cooking chicken
20:24:28 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, but in mahjong it is penalty for someone who never wins a single hand during the game
20:24:32 <boily> zzo38: yakitori is rough on the nerves. it makes the game very stressful.
20:25:05 <boily> zzo38: uhm, if I may correct you, yakitori is a game of chicken where you have to declare riichi at least once during East and South.
20:25:32 <boily> (and if all four players have called riichi, it resets)
20:25:48 <zzo38> boily: That is a different kind of yakitori game then
20:26:00 <boily> zzo38: let me check, just to be sure...
20:26:04 <zzo38> boily: What happen in case of no-ten riichi?
20:26:41 <zzo38> I have made up a few variants, though, even. One is that menzenchintsumo counts 1 han toward the requirement for winning but it doesn't score 1 han; another is that ippatsu doesn't count for self-drawn.
20:26:50 <boily> zzo38: ah. wikipédia points to your yakitori.
20:27:24 <boily> zzo38: in no-ten riichi, you hope somebody else wins. if you get to an exhaustive hand, you *have* to show your hand, and then it's chombo.
20:28:07 <zzo38> Yes, I know it is chombo, but does it cancel the yakitori counter in your kind of yakitori game when that happens?
20:28:24 <Roujo> I can't tell if you guys are pulling a Mornington Crescent or not
20:28:35 <boily> zzo38: menzen tsumo is just like any other yaku. ippatsu on a tsumo is just dramatic and fun :D (did it last sunday. it was completely undeserved, made me score a haneman as oya. it was grandiose!)
20:28:50 <kmc> Roujo: me either
20:28:55 <boily> zzo38: eeeeeeeeeh... we never had that scenario happen.
20:29:06 <kmc> also that is a perfect way to describe the sense of confusion
20:29:07 <boily> Roujo: honestly, everything you see here is real mahjong.
20:29:16 <kmc> zzo38: do you ever play Mornington Crescent?
20:29:35 <zzo38> kmc: No, but I do have a map of the London Underground.
20:29:36 <Roujo> I play Berri-UQAM with my SO, if that counts
20:29:53 <boily> zzo38: I'll have to ask our expert player next time. that point is very interesting.
20:30:54 <Roujo> Especially with the Special AMT Extension rules
20:32:32 <boily> zzo38: my favourite yaku combo is the Infamous Men Tan Pin (tsumo, tan'yao, pinfu), nicknamed the «Anyway en tout cas bin là» here (quote mash-up from a bad movie).
20:33:11 <boily> zzo38: plug in a riichi, pile up the dora, and get a ludicrous amount of points from your disgruntled opponents.
20:34:07 <boily> Roujo: is the Montmorency/Cartier transition valid, or do you stop at Concorde when doing a double-lateral?
20:34:30 <zzo38> Other things I eliminate are the "all green", and the bonuses for first-turn stuff. I also allow players to declare riichi even if your score is negative.
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20:35:47 <oerjan> <Roujo> I can't tell if you guys are pulling a Mornington Crescent or not <-- zzo38 is the last person in the channel i'd suspect of doing that.
20:35:54 <boily> zzo38: all green is epic. a girl did that with suankō during a tournament, while oya. 96000 points.
20:36:17 <boily> zzo38: also, when a player is bankrupt, it ends the game. if you don't have at least a thousand left, no riichi.
20:36:41 <boily> zzo38: my bro actively tries to achieve tenhō. hasn't worked yet :P
20:36:46 <zzo38> boily: You are playing dobon, then.
20:36:58 <zzo38> boily: And how can you actively try to achieve tenhou?
20:37:05 <boily> zzo38: yup. I did that last Sunday on a chombo :D
20:37:17 <boily> (I was furiten, and called ron.)
20:37:45 <boily> Roujo: comment t'avais fait la dernière fois pour réussir à faire que le Pouti s'en vienne sur le channel?
20:38:26 <zzo38> I just play that when calling ron when furiten or otherwise an invalid win, you have to expose your tiles but then you can put them back up and the game continues normally. If you make incorrect calls too often then you may be disqualified (except for no-ten riichi)
20:39:56 <boily> in games between regular members, it's chombo, and that's it. it seems harsh at first, but nobody really minds.
20:40:08 <boily> when playing with my friends from Québec City, it's much more lenient.
20:40:19 <boily> (and when alcohol is involved, screw penalties.)
20:41:33 <zzo38> To simplify it a bit, I also ignore the fu, and just treat it as always 25 fu, so that there is no rounding (some players use 30 fu, but this results in rounding); this also results pinfu slightly different, more like the "All Chow Game" in the Singapore game
20:42:13 <zzo38> To me the rounding is considered a bit unfair.
20:42:22 <Roujo> boily: Je lui ai demandé de se pointer sur FB? =P
20:42:49 <Roujo> boily: Also, yeah, Montmorency/Cartier is alright, it's just... weird. I've never seen it work. >_>
20:42:55 <boily> the most common hands lie on the 30 fu line, so you get to know the points by heart. otherwise, it's 40 fu. very rarely you get an interesting hand at 50.
20:43:08 <Roujo> But yeah, it's legal
20:44:31 <boily> Roujo: it works in weird tournament matches between 3 players, but only if the Drapeau handicap is applied to an out-of-town visitor. I think they changed the limits to Longueuil in 2006 for that, otherwise there were too many corner cases left.
20:44:38 <zzo38> boily: Yes, OK, but I do use many variations of the rules, like I have said; it is the game I prefer anyways
20:44:56 <boily> zzo38: do you plan to visit Montréal in the foreseeable future?
20:45:16 <zzo38> boily: No, I currently have no such plan.
20:46:31 <boily> that means I'll have to cross the Great Puddle some day if I want to match you.
20:47:13 <zzo38> Maybe I will go over there in some day, but I don't expect so.
20:48:21 <boily> we could meet in the middle.
20:48:26 <Roujo> boily: Ah, I wouldn't know. My SO is the only one I play with =/
20:48:55 <zzo38> I still prefer the Japanese game over the other mahjong games, though!
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20:49:06 <zzo38> boily: Do you sometimes play Washizu mahjong?
20:49:30 <boily> zzo38: no. I am subject to vasovagal responses when my blood is involved.
20:49:49 <zzo38> You can play without your blood if you want to, as long as you have some way to keep track of hit points
20:50:48 <Roujo> boily: I have a friend like that.
20:50:55 <Roujo> Well, blood in general, really
20:51:20 <Roujo> [16:48:21] <boily> we could meet in the middle.
20:51:25 <Roujo> Tell me how that goes
20:51:33 <boily> other's people blood I have no problem with. I just really prefer that mine stays inside my body, thank you very much.
20:51:38 <zzo38> The "Akagi DS" game includes a mode for Washizu mahjong and I play that game.
20:51:53 <boily> I wonder if there is mahjong yet on the Ouya...
20:53:16 <zzo38> You are allowed to look at your partner's tiles, and communication with them freely, and oka and uma does count.
20:53:37 <boily> Roujo: there was that collecte organised by héma-québec at the cégep one time. I went by and was like: “Hey, I should try that. I got two hours to kill”. bad idea.
20:53:40 <zzo38> (The uma really does add another aspect to Washizu mahjong.)
20:53:56 <Roujo> boily: Did you die? D:
20:54:08 <boily> Roujo: it felt like dying, but I don't think so.
20:54:55 <boily> Roujo: I was fine up to the point where I was pierced and plugged to the machine. a few seconds later, reboot.
20:55:12 <zzo38> Usually the leaders are in first and second place, but I have once won with Washizu in last place, giving me a lot of uma bonus.
20:55:28 <oerjan> boily: what's the Great Puddle?
20:55:29 <boily> you wake up shaking, shivering, sweating, your hands are prickly, you are hungry, you are nauseous, you want to pee...
20:55:35 <boily> oerjan: the Atlantic Ocean.
20:55:42 <Roujo> oerjan: the Authentic Ocean
20:55:55 <boily> zzo38: uma is nasty and perverse :p
20:56:35 <zzo38> boily: In an ordinary game with four players playing by themself, yes, but in Washizu mahjong with the team format it uses, I like it.
20:57:37 <boily> Roujo: also, my blood pressure was unstable, and my heart was beating some eldritch morse message.
20:57:53 <oerjan> boily: i think you will find that zzo38s in the mirror are closer than they appear.
20:58:10 <oerjan> in fact, you should know that already, having read the quotes
20:58:23 <Roujo> boily: Sounds like a party to me
20:58:36 <zzo38> boily: Are you good at morse code?
20:58:48 <boily> oerjan: right. I just assume that people are in Hexham by default, and forgot that zzo38 is from BC.
20:58:56 <boily> zzo38: sorry about that.
20:59:04 <boily> zzo38: uhm, somewhat.
21:00:06 <boily> Roujo: maybe I should become a Super Serial Killer, with my secret weakness being my own blood.
21:01:04 <Roujo> boily: zzo38's user page on Wikipedia would tell you that much
21:01:04 <oerjan> .... .- ... - ..- .-. .... .- ... - ..- .-. .... .- ... - ..- .-.
21:01:07 <Roujo> And much, much more
21:01:54 <zzo38> In the Akagi DS game, after each hanchan, oka and uma are counted, and then you compare the final scores of the leader of both teams; however has less, loses however many hit-points is the differences.
21:01:57 <boily> oerjan: nice try :p
21:02:45 <zzo38> (The scores of the supporters are not used, except to calculate oka and uma.)
21:03:50 <zzo38> Any time during the game that one leader pays the other, the payer also loses that number of hit-points, too.
21:05:23 <zzo38> Winning off of the last card seems to be much more common in Washizu mahjong, than in the ordinary game.
21:06:27 <kmc> zzo38: what kind of map of the Underground do you have, and what do you use it for?
21:07:03 <zzo38> kmc: Currently, I do not use it for anything. Someone who was there had it when coming back to Canada, and since he didn't need it anymore he gave it to me.
21:07:50 <boily> zzo38: I can't remember any occurence of haitei happening in any game I played.
21:08:28 <zzo38> boily: Except in Washizu mahjong, it hasn't happened to me either.
21:10:35 <kmc> makes sense
21:10:58 <kmc> zzo38: it's a nice map, don't you think
21:11:31 <kmc> too bad the Circle line isn't a circle anymore :(
21:12:25 <kmc> also it stops at Edgware Road twice, which is confusing
21:12:48 <kmc> there are two stations named Edgware Road and the Circle Line stops at one of them twice and the other not at all
21:13:14 <fizzie> We're getting the "drop [as in, raindrop] line", it has this shape: http://portal.liikennevirasto.fi/portal/page/portal/f/hankkeet/suunnitteilla/pisara/pisara_kartta_0.jpg
21:13:31 <kmc> oh well, the NYC subway system has like 50 station names that are reused
21:13:48 <kmc> fizzie: heh
21:14:33 <fizzie> Apparently it's just called "Helsinki City Rail Loop" in English, but the Finnish name refers to a teardrop shape.
21:14:42 <zzo38> I think ippatsu is usually played to not count toward the han requirement to win (in Akagi DS it is like this); I prefer that it does count, unless the discarder is on the same team in which case it still scores but doesn't count toward requirement.
21:16:11 <kmc> running the commuter trains in a loop through the city center, to free up capacity at the main terminal for long distance trains
21:16:23 <boily> zzo38: ippatsu depends on a riichi anyway. in washizu you can ippatsu without that?
21:17:29 <zzo38> boily: No, I mean when you need 2 han to win if the oya wins five times
21:17:45 <kmc> fizzie: there should be a high speed rail tunnel to Tallinn, don't you think
21:18:34 <boily> zzo38: oh. right. good catch, here.
21:21:28 <Taneb> `quote bathroom interior
21:21:29 <HackEgo> 887) <coppro> GreyKnight: for instance, you can form a poset category from a bunch of tiles <GreyKnight> oh, that's why somebody was conflating category theory with bathroom interior design the other day :-D
21:21:51 <Taneb> I still think Wang Tiles would look good in a bathroom
21:21:59 <fizzie> kmc: I do think that. (I also think people have made plans for it, but that's about all.)
21:24:47 <boily> Roujo: some day, we'll have a nice train from Québec City up to Windsor...
21:25:23 <fizzie> http://www.euregio-heltal.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Hel-Tal-rail-connection-prefeasibility-study_ETI-ASIC_110708.doc-NeoOffice-Writer.pdf and so on.
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21:29:09 <kmc> the boat is pretty nice though
21:29:13 <kmc> honestly it might matter more for freight
21:29:36 <fizzie> It's also the general "there should be more trains" principle.
21:29:50 <fizzie> "If it's empty, fill it with trains," as the saying goes.
21:30:12 <fizzie> My wife's brother 3D-printed a train at the library the other day.
21:30:15 <kmc> that document doesn't say much about the gauge issue
21:30:23 <kmc> nice! they have 3D printers at the library?
21:30:49 <fizzie> Not in any sort of generally-available-in-many-places way, just in the one at Tapiola and perhaps a couple of other places.
21:31:05 <kmc> we have one at work, but I haven't used it yet
21:31:46 <fizzie> It also costs zero moneys at Tapiola, I believe.
21:31:56 <fizzie> They're so slow the material costs aren't that high. :p
21:32:19 <kmc> Rail Baltica will be standard gauge
21:32:31 <kmc> will / would
21:32:51 <fizzie> (It's a MiniFactory v2.0 -- http://www.minifactory.fi/en/ -- that's some sort of Finnish product.)
21:34:08 * kmc is briefly confused by a country labeled "Somija" on a map of the Baltic region
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21:36:15 <fizzie> Also the "Glass Palace" (there's not all that much glass in it, but that's what it's called) right in the city centre has this placed called "meeting place" administered by the Helsinki regional library system, that's the other place they've got 3D printers (another miniFactory and an Ultimaker) in. Seems that a single 3D "printout" costs 0.40 EUR -- the same as a regular paper printout -- there.
21:36:46 <fizzie> From what I've heard, the machines at Tapiola are rather regularly broken. 3D printing doesn't quite seem to have matured all the way yet.
21:37:24 <fizzie> (On the other hand, regular printers still paper jam all the time too, so... But it's usually less of a mess to unjam.)
21:37:39 <kmc> I don't know how often the really expensive professional grade printers break
21:37:42 <kmc> probably still a fair bit
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22:47:25 <Bike> searches "/F/", finds no hits
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22:48:52 <Bike> as in, people are identifying themselves with 22/M/Canada and so on
22:50:43 <kmc> ah, this is distinct from the porn reddit convention of putting [m] or [f] etc in the title
22:50:51 <kmc> ... not like I would have any way of knowing about that
22:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> there's an F on the second page! she does not carry a knife
22:51:50 <pikhq> I have every confidence that kmc does not know about porn.
22:53:46 <Bike> me too, redditor
22:53:57 <Bike> only leave the house with... god that is one stubby revolver
22:54:11 <Bike> are you supposed to like punch people with it
22:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i checked the comments; the people asking "why the fuck do you need four knives, a gun and two dozen bullets" are all downvoted
22:54:28 <zzo38> Akagi did once make a haitei on purpose (in a game that isn't Washizu mahjong, and isn't teams), and being the only yaku.
22:54:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: haha wow, link to the comments?
22:55:01 <Bike> if you run out of ammo with your first knife you have to use the second
22:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/EDC/comments/1mji11/21m_microholic/
22:55:24 <Bike> put the bullets on the knifes then the knifes in the gun
22:55:56 <olsner> put the knives on the bullets and shoot knives
22:56:06 <elliott> "Not trying to hate but what is your purpose for each knife? Is one for cutting tape/boxes, another for defense? How do you carry them (pockets using clip, sheath on belt, in a backpack)?" "I use any of em for the job at hand"
22:56:16 <elliott> pretty sure this guy is a professional killer.
22:56:30 <Bike> nah he uses hunt and peck typing but REALLY hunts
22:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> well suppose he's cutting something and one of the knives gets stuck
22:57:18 <elliott> "I like options and having several knives gives me options."
22:57:30 <elliott> I don't think he could sound more ominous if he tried
22:57:41 <Bike> several knife related options
22:57:46 <elliott> "An don't get into the whole switchblades are illegal thing. They aren't where I live and if they were I honestly don't care."
22:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> your average idiot just shrugs at this point and, at best, goes home to get another knife and gets shanked along the way after he uses all his bullets on the thirty-odd muggers coming at him
22:58:37 <kmc> reddit is scary
22:58:48 <Bike> wow the FAQ only has one question and the question is "Why are you carrying a gun/knife/etc?"
22:59:05 <elliott> "I want more than five shots available to me."
23:00:42 <Fiora> elliott: someone who needs lots of shots, maybe it's a bartender?
23:01:09 <Bike> just shoots all his patrons
23:01:29 <elliott> "two shots and four knives, please"
23:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 5 years later "oh shit was THAT what they were asking for?"
23:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "And the reason I don't always carry te glock is because I'm a smaller guy and the glock is a little big."
23:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> so does he carry both guns when he feels like having it along or does he at least leave the revolver behind
23:02:55 <olsner> probably both, more options?
23:03:15 <fizzie> He should get a gun that shoots smaller guns.
23:03:40 <olsner> or a portable 3d printer loaded with gun templates
23:03:56 <kmc> "Security in this office park is a joke. Last year, I came to work with my spud gun in a duffel bag. I sat at my desk all day, with a rifle that shoots potatoes at 60 pounds per square inch. Can you imagine if I was deranged?"
23:04:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i had to google to make sure that wasn't a serious gun control analogy
23:07:04 <olsner> some nut with a gun complaining about nuts with guns getting into his office?
23:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> haha wow this was the second submission after: http://i.imgur.com/aHZklek.jpg
23:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "if i'm going to carry things they'd better either be for killing people, or finding more people to kill"
23:15:22 <fizzie> Is that knife connected with some string to another knife?
23:15:52 <zzo38> Do you need a lot of guns to kill people? Isn't one sufficient?
23:16:03 <zzo38> Why do you need to find people to kill anyways?
23:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> the second knife is there to cut the first knife free from it
23:17:00 <fizzie> I was thinking knife-chucks.
23:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> you can garotte an unaware mugger whilst also stabbing him in two different places
23:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/EDC/comments/1mjrh6/remember_that_kickstarter_for_pens_that_was/
23:22:37 <kmc> yes it does look like a vibrator
23:23:09 <fizzie> "It feels... just so good, you guys."
23:23:11 <kmc> disappointing that it isn't actually one, really
23:23:58 <fizzie> It feels "airtight" and "well-machined" too, if you catch my drift.
23:24:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i still can't believe they don't realise they're not even paying for a pen, they're paying for an aluminium cylinder with a hole in one end
23:24:24 <kmc> fizzie: could be trouble
23:29:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/EDC/comments/1mfa5p/help_me_figure_out_how_to_carry_some_combination/
23:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i can think of one big redundancy you could cut back on
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23:32:07 <olsner> "get rid of the car and phone and you can pack two or three more knives in your pockets"
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23:32:36 <olsner> oh, and get a combination knife/lighter
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23:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> cut a hole in some suitable part of your flesh, put a knife in it
23:42:17 <Phantom_Hoover> some fucker tries to stab you? they have simply upped your knife count
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23:56:13 <Fiora> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/09/stop-using-nsa-influence-code-in-our-product-rsa-tells-customers/ o_O
23:56:20 <Fiora> RSA was using DUAL_EC_DBRG @_@
23:56:57 <Fiora> gosh, is "everyone using dual_ec_dbrg" going to turn out to match "list of companies that were ordered around by the NSA" -_-
23:59:46 <Bike> yeah what's "rsa" mean here
00:00:18 <Fiora> sorry, I meant the company ^^;
00:00:21 <Fiora> the one that makes the keyfobs and stuff
00:00:23 <Bike> Oh, a company. Founded by the people in RSA.
00:01:09 <Bike> "the deliberately crippled pseudo random number generator (PRNG), which is so weak that it undermines the security of most or all cryptography systems that use it" wow, things have escalated.
00:01:26 <kmc> you saw that NIST also disowned it, right?
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00:01:46 <Bike> "McAfee representatives issued a statement that confirmed the McAfee Firewall Enterprise Control Center 5.3.1 supported the Dual_EC_DRBG, but only when deployed in federal government or government contractor customer environments, where this FIPS certification has recommended it" bahahaha
00:01:58 <Bike> good job nsa, you got YOUR OWN FUCKING GOVERNMENT to use your FUCKING BROKEN hack
00:02:01 <Bike> thanks douchebags
00:02:08 <Fiora> maybe the NSA wanted to spy on other parts of the government?
00:02:11 <kmc> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/09/the-many-flaws-of-dualecdrbg.html is a really great detailed writeup
00:02:13 <Fiora> I mean, like, that's a thing spy agencies do, right
00:02:21 <Fiora> they spy on each other
00:02:25 <Fiora> like this big incestuous family thing
00:02:29 <Bike> yes but they're
00:02:30 <kmc> yeah intelligence agencies tend to become autonomous terrorist cells rather than anything that's accountable to either government or citizens
00:02:33 <Bike> supposed to spy on other ones!
00:02:37 <Bike> but... yeah what kmc said.
00:03:02 <Bike> but i mean even disregarding that, crippling government security is kind of the opposite of even the nsa's supposed mission to do literally the exact opposite of that.
00:03:19 <Bike> oh yeah? what's it say
00:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "they're completely out of control, and so compartmentalised that nobody actually knows what anyone else is doing"
00:04:04 <kmc> at least they are just breaking crypto and not kidnapping people to give them LSD just to see what happens
00:04:17 <Bike> "The length of time that Dual_EC_DRBG takes can be seen as a virtue: it also slows down an attacker trying to guess the seed" lol
00:04:44 <elliott> Bike: it only compromises the government's security if you're the NSA though? at least in theory
00:05:03 <elliott> so for the NSA it's just plain a good thing if they get anyone at all to use it ever
00:05:03 <Bike> yes, a very stupid theory that goes against every cryptographic practice.
00:05:10 <Bike> which, i mean, is what they were thinking, i'm sure.
00:05:23 <Bike> er. what i'm saying is they're incompetent.
00:05:42 <elliott> I think they're actually turning out to be kind of disturbingly competent
00:06:09 <Phantom_Hoover> eh, doesn't really matter if your compromised rng is obviously shitty if you can pressure people who don't understand that into using it
00:06:21 <Bike> It's like the CIA. They're disturbingly competent at some things (e.g. kidnapping) and worse at others (e.g. not making half the world hate the united states)
00:06:51 <Bike> Anyway. Anyone here used davfs2?
00:06:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, the thing is that even the NSA probably doesn't want the rest of the world to be able to break the US government's encryption. just them.
00:08:02 <pikhq> Indeed, half the mission of the NSA is making it so that US communications can't be cracked.
00:08:04 <Bike> I mean intelligence agencies seem to have this thing where they're pretty great at the microscale of their job but then use it to just fuck everything over constantly.
00:08:35 <Bike> Like, the CIA ran the opium trade in the Pacific for a while. I'm sure they did it very well! But the problem with that is that they ran an opium trade
00:08:50 <pikhq> Turns out that a lack of oversight is bad.
00:08:56 <Bike> Sorry, this just really, really irritates me.
00:09:13 <elliott> I think the CIA just likes having fun.
00:09:31 <pikhq> elliott: And money.
00:09:36 <elliott> like, hey we should go install a new government in some random country today! hey we should try out this whole drug trade thing! life's an adventure!
00:09:39 <pikhq> Opium trading is a great source of income.
00:09:47 <kmc> worked for the british
00:11:12 <Bike> laughing @ idea of cheery cia agent saying "life's an adventure!" to a bunch of filipino muslims he's torturing
00:21:52 <elliott> that's the vibe I'm going for, yeah
00:24:33 <Bike> i've heard a story that the cia faked a vampire attack in mindanao once, so, that works
00:26:31 <kmc> black comedy set in the CIA in the 60s
00:26:53 <Fiora> that sounds like it would come out a lot like Dr. Strangelove
00:30:10 <elliott> I think I've gone like seven years wanting to see Dr. Strangelove without actually doing it. I'm great. I'm the best
00:34:13 <elliott> thanks, I never thought of that before
00:35:08 <Bike> davfs2 is great
00:35:21 <Bike> ls tells me what are the files are but then because of the fucked configuration i can't access them
00:35:39 <Bike> and so cp, which just uses usual cp instead of dav's copy, can't do shit even though i can over dav
00:36:54 <Bike> (it will probably actually be great once the IT nerds unfuck themselves)
00:40:44 <kmc> nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrds
00:47:03 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I sometimes teleport without knowing where I am going, and ending up frightening the people who are in there, if any. (In ifMUD, I have set a olounge teleport message to "suddenly appears in the middle of the room in an instant, frightening (or almost frightening) a few people..." partially for that reason.)
00:47:35 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of messages?
00:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/r/story/70/00/020312/nsa-620x317-620x317.jpg?hash=MGx2L2ZlZT&upscale=1
00:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> <Fiora> that sounds like it would come out a lot like Dr. Strangelove
00:53:22 <zzo38> If you play the Dungeons&Dragons game, say, do you do things like this too?
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06:04:00 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:25:10 <fizzie> "I have had an opportunity to read your article [REDACTED] on [REDACTED]. Through your works, I know you are an expert in this field." Yeah, I'm sure you've read it and are not just automatically spamming all authors for articles for your journal named almost exactly like a well-known existing journal.
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06:27:31 <Bike> Don't you want to write for Naturer?
06:28:00 <zzo38> Please look at CGA Collection this time
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09:00:56 <Taneb> Wish me out-of-context luck!
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11:30:22 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gDce nice memory use numbers in 'top' here.
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11:50:00 <Taneb> kmc, should I learn Rust?
11:50:57 <ais523> Taneb: I'm not kmc, but I think you should learn Rust
11:54:31 <Taneb> ais523, should I learn Rust over learning, say C++?
11:55:12 <ais523> Taneb: C++ is as of 2013 more practically useful; I'm hoping Rust overtakes it, although sadly it probably won't
11:55:17 <ais523> Rust is a much better language, though, IMO
11:55:24 <ais523> unless you like sheer eso craziness
11:55:29 <ais523> then C++ is pretty good
11:55:59 <ais523> fun fact: I added a couple of small C++ files to a mostly-C project recently, because I needed to create a file that could produce side effects upon being linked into a project
11:56:06 <ais523> without causing it to fail to compile if it wasn't
11:56:17 <ais523> that can't be done in portable C, but it can be done in portable C++
11:56:25 <ais523> and in fact a bunch of systems have complex linker support just to get that to work
11:57:46 <Taneb> ais523, that seems...
11:57:49 <Taneb> a weird thing to do
11:58:20 <ais523> Taneb: well you know how the Linux kernel has modules that can be compiled in and can also be dynamically loaded, depending on configuration?
11:58:36 <ais523> I was going for something like that, except that the core file would know which files were compiled in without anyone having to tell it
11:58:53 <ais523> thus it would know whether it needed to try to dynamically load them or not if someone requested them
11:58:54 <Taneb> I don't know that much about the linux kernel
11:59:35 <Taneb> (should probably learn at some point)
11:59:38 <ais523> you don't need to know anything about internals to know that, just to have configured it at least once
11:59:46 <ais523> but I guess people don't configure the kernel very often
12:01:43 <Taneb> I'm going to get some lunch now
12:12:05 <Roujo> ais523: What's the point of configuring the kernel? When do you need to do it?
12:12:23 <ais523> Roujo: when you're compiling it in anything other than a stock configuration
12:12:38 <Roujo> Why would you want to do that?
12:12:39 <ais523> in my case, it was for an embedded system
12:12:54 <ais523> needed to turn off as many features as we could get away with to save disk space
12:13:20 <ais523> also the sysadmins here had to reconfigure the kernel of a VM for me so that a program I wrote that required specific kernel support would run
12:13:34 <ais523> (one of the flags to prctl)
12:13:38 <Roujo> Yeah, I guess I just never used anything specific enough to have to do that =)
12:14:50 <ais523> well it was on by default in the kernel my laptop uses
12:14:59 <ais523> but apparently not in the configuration used by the desktops and servers here
12:15:09 <oerjan> you should always configure your kernel unusually to keep the NSA off balance. also, have this nice tin(*) hat. (*) _genuine_ tin, not that aluminium thing that _strengthens_ the mind control rays instead.
12:16:16 <Roujo> I just use lead instead
12:16:24 <ais523> oerjan: there was that huge row from people who didn't understand the way the Linux kernel implemented randomness
12:16:37 <ais523> telling it to stop XORing rdrand() results with its true-random numbers to make them randomer
12:16:45 <oerjan> Roujo: that only helps against the cancer-producing rays.
12:16:55 <Roujo> oerjan: You haven't met my mother
12:18:08 <oerjan> ais523: i think i saw a post where linus insulted them recently.
12:18:35 <ais523> well, it wasn't so much typical linus insults
12:18:47 <ais523> as "go read the kernel source, then tell me if your request makes any sense"
12:20:37 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/FjXH <- this software does not fill me with confidence.
12:21:24 <ais523> all those warnings are the same thing, though
12:21:41 <ais523> assuming 64 bit, it'll work fine if they're storing integers in pointers
12:21:43 <Roujo> Sounds nice. Pointers as ints are always nice.
12:21:48 <ais523> but not if they're storing pointers in integers
12:21:53 <ais523> and both situations would cause that warning
12:22:13 <Roujo> Wait, casting an int as a pointer causes the "pointer-to-int" warning?
12:22:29 <Roujo> That doesn't sound intuitive
12:22:45 <oerjan> mind you, if you've just read about how applying the NSA PRNG to "improve" true random output ruins it, you'd be naturally suspicious of other ways of "improving" random numbers, too.
12:22:46 <fizzie> You need to convert both ways in both scenarios, generally.
12:23:06 <fizzie> For the most part those warnings are of the if (debug) printf ("...@%x...", (int)thisisapointer); variety, which is clearly wrong but does not really matter.
12:24:08 <fizzie> Also there is one case of if (unsignedcharvalue = (unsigned char)NULL) (except obscured by typedefs) which is also completely wrong if NULL is defined as "(void *)0", but does not matter either.
12:24:54 <fizzie> Yes, all the others than that one seem to be debug printouts.
12:25:01 <fizzie> (Whoever wrote this clearly has not heard of %p.)
12:25:35 <ais523> I remember a style guide somewhere saying not to use %p ever
12:25:37 <ais523> but I can't remember why
12:26:07 <oerjan> fizzie: wait, (unsigned char)NULL, not (unsigned char *)NULL ?
12:26:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, well, the other side is an unsigned char (not a pointer to it) too.
12:26:33 <fizzie> It's looking for the terminating '\0' of a string, as far as I can tell.
12:26:45 <ais523> now I'm wondering, is it ever possible for (unsigned char)NULL to not be 0?
12:26:59 <ais523> my guess is yes, but zero constants work weirdly when it comes to pointers
12:27:09 <ais523> e.g. (void*)(float)0 is always NULL
12:27:21 <ais523> err, (void*)(int)(float)0
12:28:08 <oerjan> are you _sure_ of that.
12:28:15 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think that's true.
12:28:28 <fizzie> ais523: It is true that (void*)(int)0.0f is always NULL, however.
12:28:56 <Gregor> Related: http://ewontfix.com/11/
12:29:03 <ais523> fizzie: I can't remember the exact rules, but they're stupid
12:29:15 <ais523> what about (void*)(NULL - NULL)?
12:29:48 <fizzie> ais523: "Integer constant expressions" are allowed to include "floating constants that are the immediate operands of casts", but any cast operators "shall only convert arithmetic types to integer types", which would outlaw the (float) cast.
12:30:09 <fizzie> (And of course a null pointer expression needs an integer constant expression with a value of 0.)
12:30:45 <fizzie> I don't think (void *)(NULL - NULL) is always correct, if the definition of NULL includes the (legal) cast to (void *).
12:31:34 <oerjan> hm is pointer subtraction defined if the pointers are NULL
12:31:36 <Taneb> ais523, rust is still making
12:31:53 <ais523> oerjan: I was wondering that myself
12:32:00 <ais523> it's obviously undefined if exactly one is NULL
12:32:13 <oerjan> they're not pointing to the same array, because there is no array.
12:32:20 <ais523> but both being NULL is the sort of situation you don't lean the rules for because it's stupid to do it
12:32:40 <ais523> they're both pointing one past the end of (void[0])NULL :P
12:33:20 <fizzie> "Both shall point to elements of the same array object" is all it says.
12:33:27 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's not right.
12:33:53 <fizzie> *Anyway*, regarding the original topic, I don't think "(int)(void *)0" has any particular guarantees that would require it to be 0.
12:34:00 <ais523> so if I have a pointer to something that isn't an array
12:34:04 <ais523> I can't subtract that pointer from itself?
12:34:36 <Taneb> I think it's bootstrapping now
12:34:52 <fizzie> How would you have a valid pointer to something that isn't an array? (There's a rule that says approximately that everything can be treated as one-element arrays.)
12:34:52 <ais523> (this could easily be achieved via, say, taking the address of a stack element)
12:37:22 <fizzie> "For the purposes of these operators, a pointer to an object that is not an element of an array behaves the same as a pointer to the first element of an array of length one with the type of the object as its element type."
12:37:30 <fizzie> "These operators" being + and -.
12:38:43 <ais523> whereas NULL doesn't count because it doesn't necessarily point to anything?
12:38:54 <fizzie> It explicitly does not point to any object, I think.
12:40:18 <ais523> well it's possible for it to point to something
12:40:30 <Roujo> Is it defined somewhere? I keep getting errors saying that NULL doesn't exist >_>
12:40:52 <ais523> is there anything in the standard to prevent NULL being somewhere on the stack? (it can't be on the heap, unless it's in the middle of an object, because free ignores it)
12:41:03 <fizzie> Roujo: It's defined in many headers, but <stddef.h> is the standard location.
12:41:13 <fizzie> <stdlib.h>, <stdio.h> and others define it too.
12:41:31 <Taneb> I can't quite parse "While using rustc directly to generate your executables, and then running them manually is a perfectly valid way to test your code, for smaller projects, prototypes, or if you're a beginner, it might be more convenient to use the rust tool."
12:42:09 <Taneb> Is it saying that compiling then running is better if I'm a beginner, or is it saying that using the rust tool is better if I'm a beginner?
12:42:23 <fizzie> ais523: Anyhow, a null pointer is "guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to any object or function", which would be a contradiction if it actually pointed to an object, because it would then compare equal to any pointer to that object.
12:43:06 <fizzie> And you can have a "char *" at any individual byte of an object, so I think you can't even hide it in the middle of an object.
12:43:07 <ais523> Taneb: it's saying that if you're starting out, rust is probably easier to use, but rustc is perfectly acceptable
12:43:21 <ais523> what if it points halfway through a byte?
12:43:31 <Roujo> ais523: fizzie: Thanks, that explains it =P
12:43:40 <ais523> (I think this is actually legal in C, although not massively useful)
12:43:42 <Roujo> Any reason why it's not a keyword? =P
12:44:35 <fizzie> Not technically, I don't think. (Keywords are identifiers.)
12:44:45 <fizzie> C++11 has a 'nullptr' keyword for a null pointer, I think.
12:44:54 <ais523> fizzie: I was thinking about that
12:44:59 <ais523> but I'm not sure if it's a keyword or just a templtae
12:45:40 <fizzie> I don't think I want to get the C++11 specification to find out, but I think it's a keyword.
12:45:48 <fizzie> 'true' and 'false' are keywords there too.
12:46:34 <ais523> I hope they were defined as 0 and 1 respectively, just to annoy people
12:46:43 <ais523> although they probably weren't
12:47:44 <fizzie> <stdbool.h> defines three macros: true, false, and file_no.. I mean, __bool_true_and_false_are_defined.
12:48:07 <fizzie> Oh, and "bool" as a macro that expands to "_Bool", forgot that.
12:48:42 <ais523> btw, something that came up in discussion with the people here this morning: strictly typed LaTeX
12:48:54 <ais523> basically the idea is that it typechecks your math in order to catch typos
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12:55:29 <oerjan> fizzie: isn't __bool_true_and_false_are_defined sort of redundant with true :P
12:55:51 <oerjan> i guess it never hurts to be explicit.
12:56:49 <oerjan> ais523: good luck with typechecking _real_ math.
12:57:17 <ais523> oerjan: it'd work on category theory
12:57:48 <oerjan> real math makes C++ overloading look sane, you know.
12:58:24 <fizzie> oerjan: I guess you can use it to check whether they're defined in the standard way, rather than in some custom way.
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13:19:45 <Taneb> I can't get rust-mode working in emacs...
13:20:18 <Roujo> Have you tried adding a mist of water and letting it sit there for a couple of years?
13:20:35 <boily> Taneb: did you turn it off and on again?
13:22:14 <ion> Is the cable connected?
13:24:13 <oerjan> did you try pushing Ctrl-Apple-Escape-Meta-Alt-Start-Alt Gr-R ?
13:29:16 <boily> oerjan: you forgot Hyper.
13:31:43 <boily> otherwise, all that'll do will bring up the Tetris-Mayan-Calendar-Half-Debug-Mode, but only if he has the scratchpad open.
13:33:41 <oerjan> i did not know the mayans had a tetris calendar.
13:36:31 * oerjan suddenly wonders if anyone has tried to adapt a piano keyboard for non-music use
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13:37:31 <oerjan> ooh http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5928061/using-a-piano-keyboard-as-a-computer-keyboard
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13:38:15 <Gregor> Using a piano keyboard as a computer keyboard sounds like a profoundly bad idea.
13:38:25 <Gregor> Using something similar to a computer keyboard as a piano keyboard is less ridiculous.
13:38:29 <Roujo> I used a DDR pad to play Goldeneye
13:38:32 <Gregor> (But with velocity sensitivity)
13:38:41 <Roujo> There really is no limit
13:38:54 <boily> I need to find a nice small electric piano.
13:39:24 <Roujo> I have a wind "piano"
13:39:39 <Roujo> More like an organ, probably
13:39:45 <Roujo> But without the pipes
13:39:58 <Gregor> Um... are you referring to a melodica?
13:41:42 <fizzie> Creative sells a computer keyboard where the integrated wrist rest contains a small piano keyboard.
13:41:51 <fizzie> Normally there's a cover on top of it when typing.
13:42:27 <fizzie> http://ask.creative.com/wwimages/general/product_guides/prodikeys_dm.jpg <- this thing.
13:42:27 <Gregor> I've found mini-keyboards to be surprisingly useless for digital composing.
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14:01:10 <oerjan> surprisingly, Gregor isn't a midget.
14:01:23 <boily> sometimes, when editing the quotes for too long, you realise your brain's been blocking dangerous replies in the background, preserving your sanity.
14:01:38 <boily> Bike: why. oh why did you link to shapeshifting cuttlefish erotica.
14:03:02 <Gregor> coppro: A mix of things... velocity sensitivity is not useful, so their primary "advantage" isn't one, and you need to go trawling between octaves all the time because their range is so small. Add on the fact that your hands will surely be near the computer keyboard to do other things, and I never found myself using it.
14:04:21 <fizzie> Perhaps you could have a physically scrollable mini-keyboard that you could drag left and right to access further octaves.
14:04:30 <fizzie> (With some sort of a folding mechanism.)
14:05:39 <Gregor> It was just a button press to get to other octaves.
14:05:56 <Gregor> Much less time investment than a retarded let's-suck-Apple's-cock drag maneuver.
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14:18:09 <HackEgo> 265) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named a
14:18:27 <boily> okay, so the olsner-giraffe is part of the quote. no line break, then.
14:19:29 <Roujo> Wait, so... I should probably quote you `quoting to keep the trend, is that it?
14:19:52 <Taneb> Roujo, only if olsner comments
14:20:00 <boily> Roujo: you'd be piling up on the olsner-cpressey-mnoqy combo.
14:20:37 <boily> Roujo: and think before you say something djanguesque. the consequences will never be the same.
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14:21:29 <Taneb> 8 days until I'm in a far of land
14:21:49 <Taneb> Like, less than 100 miles away
14:22:19 <boily> uhm. yeah. multiplication by one hundred. you guys didn't see nothing at all.
14:22:51 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: `百'Not in scope: `二十から五'
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14:28:19 <Roujo> boily: 'faudrait que tu japonise ton cuttlefish
14:29:02 <boily> Roujo: file in an issue on github! :)
14:29:41 <Roujo> There's a congregation point for stupid cuttlefish?
14:31:15 <boily> https://github.com/pfcuttle/metasepia ← ISSUES! FILE THEM! ☺
14:31:33 <Roujo> You put that on Github, but the repo is not quite useful =P
14:31:42 <Roujo> "Initial" and "Initial Commit"
14:31:55 <Roujo> Source code? Not much, just an "Hello World"
14:32:40 <boily> I know. haven't had time to port the whole stuff to GHC 7.6.
14:32:50 <boily> like, all that error upheaval and stuff.
14:33:30 <Roujo> git push origin master
14:33:58 <boily> nah. not going to make public the old version.
14:35:20 <boily> well. some people in the chännel saw some parts. they can witness that it really shouldn't be made public :p
14:35:38 <boily> (aaaaurgh. that missed occasion in Duck.hs where I could have used Alternative... it still burns...)
14:36:18 <boily> Gregor: you seem to have a Deep and Old hatred of Apple Products.
14:36:47 <Gregor> That's because their products are awful, the company is awful, and everything they stand for is awful.
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14:53:38 <Roujo> boily: I put an issue on Github
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15:04:26 <boily> I... I agree with one of kmc's quotes. I feel very strange.
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15:05:28 <Roujo> Which one would that be?
15:05:58 <HackEgo> 818) <kmc> colemak is for people who think dvorak is too mainstream
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15:06:23 <Roujo> Also, un clavier AZERTY en vaut deux
15:06:49 * boily bops Roujo with a Model M keyboard
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15:38:59 <zzo38> Now I found the esolang Urn. I like this too.
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16:08:09 <zzo38> I added some things in list of ideas
16:08:22 <zzo38> Funge like where the acceleration changes rather than the direction (although you can change the acceleration in any directions).
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16:25:16 <Taneb> That's a pretty good idea
16:25:49 <Taneb> Perhaps ^ < v > apply a force
16:25:54 <Taneb> And you can change the pointer's mass
16:32:25 <AnotherTest> and when you go too fast special relativity drops in?
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17:28:35 <boily> back from lunch, and the funge is accelerated.
17:28:57 <boily> I tried a bún riêu today. it smells bad, but it tastes good ^^
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18:05:30 <boily> new gaming categories are ridiculous. roguelikes are too mainstream, so now there are roguelikelikes.
18:06:04 <Bike> "action-adventure" of course was always a sensible categorization
18:06:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i still don't really understand why action-adventure is different from rpg
18:07:09 <Gregor> Where are my adventure point-and-clicks :(
18:07:29 <Bike> my earliest memory of gaming genres is asking what "RP" meant in an ESRB rating and being told it stood for Role Playing Game, because in Starfox Adventures you played the role of Fox.
18:07:39 <Bike> it's pretty much been downhill from there
18:07:46 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: in action-adventure, you get action and adventure. in rpg you get scantily clad effeminate male protagonists.
18:08:31 <Roujo> Borderland is an action-adventure FPSRPG
18:09:24 <Phantom_Hoover> like it includes, as a genre, games where the player character is a fixed character independent of player input; and games where the PC has no characterisation whatsoever beyond that imposed on them
18:10:33 <boily> I'd like to see one day a cross between Call of Duty and Katamari.
18:11:11 <Gregor> It's almost, ALMOST as if humans have a natural tendency to categorize.
18:11:40 <Bike> it's definitely tragic when human function doesn't match our idea of human function.
18:11:46 <Bike> human function is an asshole.
18:12:08 <boily> Gregor: playing with the quotes, I came to create ad hoc categories: people obsessed with sex, and insane people.
18:12:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, yes but when you name the category after something that varies wildly within that category...
18:13:29 <Roujo> boily: Also, those two aren't mutually exclusive
18:14:07 <Bike> http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/ this seems very zzo38
18:15:39 <boily> Bike: how do you measure zzoness?
18:16:14 <Bike> boily: a special MSX Computer program i have
18:16:56 <Bike> "A man who fucks bicycles is on the loose in Sweden."
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18:38:55 <boily> @tell Patashu congratulations! you are another member of the Great People Revolutionary Association of People Who Were There, But Are Not
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18:44:34 <boily> @tell oerjan lutefisk. in a microwave. you are mad.
18:44:58 <Roujo> @tell oerjan boily: Well yeah. We know that by now.
18:46:07 <boily> Roujo: oerjan is a fine example of the insane people category.
18:46:23 <Roujo> Where do I fit in?
18:47:28 <boily> eeeeeh... the Canadian category?
18:50:21 <Roujo> "The Canadian, the Sexually Obsessed and the Bat-Shit Cray Cray"
19:00:32 <boily> `addquote \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:00:37 <HackEgo> 1107) \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:04:34 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:06:10 <boily> Roujo: yes, but that's besides the point. he's elliott.
19:07:34 <boily> (that was my feeble attempt at appeasing the authorities, and trying to distract them long enough to slip in another `addquote)
19:08:58 -!- Bike has joined.
19:10:15 <elliott> nobody actually said that quote.
19:11:19 <boily> right. my next attempt will be subtler, and within the rules.
19:11:35 <Roujo> <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:12:24 <boily> Roujo: there's still the slight detail that neither you nor I can `addquote it, cause it'll be in poor taste.
19:12:54 <Roujo> ~echo `addquote \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:12:55 <metasepia> `addquote \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:12:58 <HackEgo> 1107) \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:13:55 <Roujo> ~echo `addquote <metasepia> `addquote \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:13:55 <metasepia> `addquote <metasepia> `addquote \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:14:00 <HackEgo> 1107) <metasepia> `addquote \item <elliott\_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django \\ <olsner> elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes.
19:14:00 <Roujo> That's a quote, right?
19:14:18 <Roujo> Alright, alright...
19:15:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
19:15:13 -!- elliott has kicked HackEgo HackEgo.
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19:15:17 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -v Roujo.
19:15:18 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
19:15:19 -!- elliott has left.
19:15:51 <Roujo> Oh wait. I can't talk anymore.
19:16:48 <Taneb> Roujo, do you feel like that fishy lass in the book about the chap
19:17:20 <Taneb> The Little Mermaid
19:17:36 <Roujo> Fun fact: My SO is called Arielle
19:17:56 <Roujo> Also, no, I don't believe I do
19:18:00 <Roujo> How *did* she feel
19:19:15 -!- elliott has joined.
19:19:33 <Roujo> Sorry for the botspam =/
19:21:36 <Roujo> Or would that be "about the botspam"?
19:21:37 <elliott> well, I'm hardly innocent of botspam myself in my wild and reckless youth :P
19:22:24 <boily> I'm not young. Roujo is.
19:22:27 <Bike> aren't you like twelve
19:22:37 <Roujo> I'm more concerned about the ping that came with it =P
19:22:49 <Roujo> It rhymes, so it's true
19:23:23 <Taneb> How the hell does boily rhyme with twenty
19:23:35 <Taneb> bwenty rhymes with twenty
19:23:41 <Roujo> boily does as well
19:23:43 <Taneb> boily rhymes with oily!
19:23:58 <Roujo> First-degree rhymes have feelings!
19:24:14 <Roujo> So it's a poor rhyme. Sue me.
19:24:21 <Taneb> boily, that still doesn't rhyme with twenty!
19:24:51 <Taneb> It almost rhymes with "call me"
19:25:52 <fungot> boily: but, we are far outnumbered!... ...oh well! come again! these are my friends! this is the masamune!
19:26:07 -!- mnoqy has joined.
19:26:36 * boily hides behind mnoqy “You won't get me alive!”
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19:27:42 <boily> mnoqy: hi. don't worry, nothing bad will happen to you.
19:30:24 <nooodl> i remember thinking it was /bwali/ but it was /bojli/ (screw proper transcription)
19:31:02 <boily> nooodl: it really is /bwali/. <oi> transcribes /wa/.
19:33:41 <nooodl> boily: c'est domamge. la façon anglaise à l'air plus mignonne. "boï-lie!"
19:34:59 <boily> nooodl: j'aime aussi, vu que ça sonne comme «bouillant», mais j'ai comme un certain attachement sentimental à mon nom de famille :p
19:36:34 <nooodl> change de nom de famille EQÇA
19:37:13 <nooodl> "espère que ça aide" EQÇA
19:37:28 <boily> Ō_Ō. je l'avais vraiment pas vue venir celle-là...
19:45:28 <Fiora> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/09/we-dont-enable-backdoors-in-our-crypto-products-rsa-tells-customers/ wow these are like the worst denials
19:46:57 <elliott> "under no circumstances does RSA design or enable any backdoors in our products"
19:47:01 <Bike> did you miss the earlier explanation that being slow is actually an advantage since it's harder to bruteforce keys
19:47:04 <elliott> "the NSA designs them for us!"
19:47:07 <Bike> choice shit, imo
19:50:40 <Bike> i wrote a little tumblr post about how everything is more likely to be intranecine incompetence than a conspiracy. i feel like i wear a next-level tinfoil hat
19:51:50 <Fiora> is there some word, for like, a "conspiracy" that isn't really a conspiracy, like, it doesn't involve a lot of people?
19:52:01 <Gregor> Bike: Never blame on malice what that which can be attributed to stupidity.
19:52:06 <Fiora> like the NSA can have a "conspiracy" to get RSA keys from lots of companies, but all it takes is one person sending out national security letters
19:52:13 <Fiora> that's not really a big conspiracy
19:52:21 <Bike> conspiracy = shared breath. spiracy = breath. so, spiracy
19:52:30 <Bike> just one person breathing
19:53:05 <Bike> also that's usually just called "abuse" or sometimes "corruption"
19:53:14 <Bike> "a power-mad shitbag"
19:53:20 <Bike> i dunno the latin for shitbag sorry
19:54:02 <Bike> "shit rock" is the closest i got.
19:54:25 <Fiora> excrementum saccus?
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19:54:37 <Bike> (a kind of fossil)
19:54:58 <Bike> oh, i guess that's greek
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20:06:49 <boily> finally found why the phở was correctly typeset. it was because of \usepackage{txfonts}, which overrode \usepackage[sc]{mathpazo}.
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20:28:29 <oerjan> boily: i'm sorry, you clearly have misread the quote, it was precisely about how i refrained from lutefisk because it _cannot_ be microwaved
20:29:10 <oerjan> no contest on the madness part though.
20:29:46 <kmc> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/he-doesnt-juggle-he-doesnt-twist-balloons-into-animal-shapes-he-just-stares-who-is-the-creepy-clown-terrifying-the-people-of-northampton-8819006.html
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20:33:27 <boily> oerjan: thanks for the clarification.
20:34:04 <boily> today's \LaTeX{} command: \emergencystretch. quite useful for that bunch of unwarranted overfull hboxen!
20:39:19 <oerjan> <Roujo> Also, un clavier AZERTY en vaut deux <-- wait, keyboard is clavier in french?
20:39:46 <oerjan> no:klavér means a large piano, or thereabouts.
20:40:10 <Bike> well-tempered keyboard
20:40:33 <oerjan> hm clavus is latin for key, iirc
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20:41:06 <boily> oerjan: I concur. keyboard is indeed «clavier».
20:41:20 <boily> (no. «vier» is not a board.)
20:41:24 <kmc> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/unfortunate-bbc-moustache-for-nigel-farage-8829452.html
20:41:51 <fizzie> English also calls both keyboards of typing kind and music kind just keyboards, so that's reasonable?
20:42:10 <oerjan> i assume the french word, like the english, can be used both for computer and musical keyboards.
20:42:20 <Bike> "Apologies for my previous tweet. An error of judgement on my behalf." you are incorrect!
20:42:37 <Bike> didn't a ukip guy get in trouble for assault today
20:42:55 <Bike> by which i men hitting someone with a newspaper
20:43:02 <oerjan> fizzie: i assume your comment implies that finnish, like norwegian, uses different words.
20:43:29 <Bike> «MEP Godfrey Bloom, who refers to a room of female delegates as "sluts" and then whacks Channel 4 News's Michael Crick over the head» ah, yes
20:44:03 <oerjan> tastatur and (iirc) klaviatur, respectively
20:44:06 <Bike> "The trouble with Godfrey is that, he is not a racist, he's not an extremist or any of those things and he's not even anti-women, but he has a sort-of rather old fashioned territorial army sense of humour which does not translate very well in modern Britain." he's not racist, just racist
20:44:09 <fizzie> oerjan: It does. ("näppäimistö" and "koskettimisto".)
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20:45:02 <fizzie> oerjan: "Näppäillä" is approximately "to tap", while "koskettaa" is "to touch". So you tap a computer keyboard, but touch a musical one.
20:45:35 <oerjan> hm -imist[oö] means what?
20:45:41 <boily> Spanish "tocar el piano"?
20:46:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, it goes through the noun-ifications "näppäin" 'thing you tap', "kosketin" 'thing you touch' first.
20:46:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Then it's a sort of a "multiple of these things" construction from there.
20:47:57 <oerjan> Bike: technically you're not racist if you hate _everyone_
20:48:18 <Bike> technically you are racist if you're part of ukip, though
20:48:21 <nooodl> looks like the -ier suffix in "clavier" comes from this http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-arius so it's like "keyer"
20:48:42 <Bike> also nontechnically
20:48:53 <fizzie> It's a slightly specific, it will sound silly if you try applying the construction to arbitrary words. But there are other similar words.
20:49:02 <oerjan> Bike: hey you may just think ukip gets closest to your general view on humanity, even if they're too light on the british.
20:49:24 <Bike> oerjan: i know you're being funny and all but it's hard to laugh at them in this fashion
20:49:39 <fizzie> The library card catalog (if such still existed) is a "kortisto", because it contains many cards ("kortti"), and so on.
20:49:58 <Bike> oh, did i mention, i checked out a library book a few days back that had a punchcard in it
20:50:13 <oerjan> Bike: try drawing moustaches on their pictures before laughing. toothbrush style should work well.
20:50:48 <oerjan> Bike: darn i should have checked the second link above first
20:50:54 <fizzie> And, uh, I suppose "toimisto" means "office" because many tasks ("toimi", one sense) are performed there?
20:50:59 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/50f6f8e4b7307955663b689dce7e5e8a/tumblr_mt3ajafUPK1r7tprao2_r1_1280.jpg behold, the future
20:52:31 <boily> what the fungot is that...
20:52:31 <fungot> boily: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you. for you, it was a red rock as the chancellor. i can't burn, they take us in. many cloud in sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
20:52:32 <kmc> do they still use them as punch cards?
20:52:34 <fizzie> Anyhow, you can't say "tuolisto" (a thing of many chairs "tuoli") without it sounding completely ridiculous, but you can say "penkistö" (a thing of many benches "penkki") and it sounds perfectly natural.
20:53:04 <kmc> MITSFS has a bunch of punch cards like that, but these days they're used only for scratch paper / decoration
20:54:31 <fizzie> Oh, and the standard word for a park is "puisto", where "puu" means "a tree". (It's used also if the park in question has no trees in it.)
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20:56:21 <fizzie> iconv -f iso-8859-1 < /usr/share/dict/finnish | grep -i 'ist[oö]$' | wc -l => 94.
20:56:45 <fizzie> (Not all of those are -- at least in any sort of obvious way -- constructed from a base noun.)
20:57:05 <kmc> why is your dictionary in ISO 8859-1 :(
20:57:24 <fizzie> That's what Debian "wfinnish" installs.
20:58:01 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Character_Set#History_of_ISO_10646 apparently the original plan for extending UCS-2 beyond 2^16 codepoints was to use ISO 2022
20:58:33 <kmc> so the original plan was even worse than UTF-16
20:58:36 <fizzie> It might technically be in ISO 8859-15. Though there are no characters in it for which that'd make a difference.
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20:59:09 <boily> why are some people still attached to ISO 2022?
20:59:46 <kmc> I don't think many people are...
20:59:54 <kmc> but it still gets used for line-drawing in non-Unicode terminals, at least
21:00:58 <Roujo> That should be enough for anyone
21:01:16 <Roujo> Heck, take a -, a _ and a ¯ as well
21:01:26 <kmc> (and gets used for line-drawing in Unicode terminals when the software in question doesn't care enough to switch)
21:01:30 <Roujo> Maybe even a =, a / and a \
21:01:38 <kmc> what about +
21:01:48 <boily> kmc: I think the not-caring part is the most important factor in non-unicodifying the whole world.
21:01:51 <Roujo> See? Plenty to go around
21:02:15 <Roujo> ! if you want a bit of flair
21:02:29 <Roujo> ( and ) for squiggles
21:02:49 <Roujo> ? doesn't quite do it for me
21:03:00 <Roujo> And neither does &
21:03:34 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/HebS
21:03:51 <fizzie> I'm sure I've seen a box like that somewhere.
21:04:00 <Roujo> AnotherTest: Probably.
21:04:10 <Roujo> Ask boily, the smiley
21:04:12 <fizzie> Possibly with corners made out of Os or something.
21:04:15 <Roujo> It rhymes, so it's true
21:04:39 <Roujo> And Taneb can't object, either
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21:05:30 <Bike> kmc: they don't still use them. the librarian gave me that one since otherwise he was just going to trash it.
21:05:45 <Bike> i can only assume nobody had checked out "Reflections on Muscles" for a while, shocking as that is
21:06:00 <boily> Roujo: stop rhyming me, you unpoetic fiend!
21:07:01 <kmc> Uncle Muscles Hour
21:07:33 <AnotherTest> Can any group action on a set be used to define an equivalence relation on a set?
21:07:41 <Roujo> HackEgo got kicked by elliott
21:07:44 <Bike> yeah i thought it would make for a good androphilic porno too
21:07:45 <Roujo> ADMIN ABUUUUUUUUUUSE
21:07:56 <Bike> alas andrew huxley wasn't that hot when he wrote it
21:08:12 <Bike> hm, wonder if i can find a picture of him young
21:08:17 <kmc> Uncle Muscles is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_and_Eric_Awesome_Show,_Great_Job!
21:08:57 <boily> Roujo: let me try an experimentale manœuvre...
21:08:57 <kmc> which is basically a fever dream nightmare version of public access cable
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21:09:10 <boily> ~duck uncle muscles
21:09:17 <boily> Roujo: nope. didn't work.
21:09:24 <Bike> wow there are like no pictures of this guy before he was like forty
21:09:47 <kmc> about half of the actors are internationally known comedians, the other half are random people in LA they hired off craigslist, and the two groups get equal respect and screentime
21:10:02 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Young_Huxley_RN.jpg i guess his gramps was cute, though
21:10:29 <Bike> "darwin's bulldog": possibly a bdsm thing? discuss
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21:15:37 <oerjan> AnotherTest: the obvious way would be an equivalence relation whose classes are the orbits of the group action
21:18:02 <AnotherTest> oerjan: well, considering I'm just reading this algebra book I'm not really familiar with all the terminology
21:18:49 <oerjan> AnotherTest: just a set of the form { g x | g \in G } for x \in X
21:19:30 <oerjan> alternatively, just define directly x ~ y as \exists g \in G : g x = y
21:20:13 <oerjan> then g^-1 y = x, and transitivity is just multiplication
21:21:13 <oerjan> it is possible i'm not using the right terminology, g x is g acting on x.
21:21:31 <oerjan> *terminology for your book
21:23:39 <AnotherTest> well, it seems like a possibly useful result
21:25:08 <oerjan> now prove that _every_ equivalence relation can be got from a group action >:)
21:26:50 <oerjan> (not necessarily a very interesting one, mind you)
21:29:27 <oerjan> <boily> Taneb: /bwali/. <-- wait make up your mind, is it french or irish
21:30:19 <boily> oerjan: it is pronounced as in French. it is ultimately Irish. it is rael. it is real. ♪ guitar solo ♪
21:31:13 <oerjan> but is it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABl ?
21:34:04 <Bike> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0061798 gotta love biocyberneticists
21:34:12 <Bike> instead of jacking into turtle brains, we'll just put blinders on them
21:36:36 <oerjan> Bike: that's not cybernetics, just politics.
21:37:50 <Bike> ha ha, but "cybernetics" means politics!
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21:40:53 <oerjan> i'll borrow the porn e2 to e4 from the other day.
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21:44:22 <oerjan> <nooodl> "espère que ça aide" EQÇA <-- can i borrow that for emergencies?
21:44:57 <nooodl> oerjan: i hereby release these four letters to the public domain. EQÇA. wait aren't you supposed to be kicking the habit
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21:59:57 <Roujo> @tell Taneb Oh. OH. Yeah, I remember now - she also lost her voice. God, that took a while
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22:15:07 <olsner> hmm, were you guys trying to add latex-formatted quotes to the quotedb or something?
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22:18:48 <oerjan> i think that was a mispaste.
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22:51:58 <olsner> hmm, did shachaf leave here?
22:52:59 <olsner> there should be an opposite of a ban we could use for people who try to leave
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22:54:25 <oerjan> yeah we should have nabbed shachaf before he escaped
22:59:08 <Bike> olsner: summon?
22:59:53 <olsner> hmm, maybe you're looking for the other kind of esoterica?
23:00:29 <Bike> do you require assistance
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23:58:36 <mnoqy> i hear hackego got kicked by elliott
00:00:11 <nio247> so I had an idea for an esolang, what if we had something like a string-rewriting system using a list of production rules
00:00:42 <mnoqy> that's been done a few times i think? what's yr twist on it
00:01:25 <nio247> where each rule was of the form "if contents of buffer X match a CFG expression Y, rewrite contents of buffer Z with an expression W", where W can have substrings copied from some part of Y
00:02:27 <nio247> might be an easier or harder way to write grammars, idk.
00:05:06 <oerjan> CFG might be more expressive than the usual regular...
00:05:54 <oerjan> although as thue shows, you only need fixed strings and one buffer to be TC
00:06:35 <nio247> the idea is that if you can also include expressions for multiple buffers (i.e. a set of strings A -> a set of strings B, plus a set of subexpressions C that have to be equal among matches), then you can, for example, parse C code, populate a symbol table, and check if something is known or not at the same time.
00:07:40 <nio247> ... as opposed to writing a LL(*) parser for a superset of a language, and then doing semantic analysis (is this a variable name or a type name?) to discard invalid programs.
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00:11:46 <nio247> what I'm trying to do is take a turing-tarpit (a production-based string-rewriting system like Thue) and make it into something that is somewhat easier to use... except my flavor isn't much better in that regard either.
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03:06:34 <Bike> anyone here willing to explain to me how synchronous design in circuits works? i'm missing something easy i'm sure
03:09:12 <Bike> i should have known :(
03:16:38 <kmc> obligatory "just ask your question"
03:18:02 <kmc> what do you mean by "synchronous design"
03:18:04 <kmc> im probably not helpin
03:18:45 <Bike> i still don't understand how you like, synchronize everything to not happen all at once. it seems probably more complicated than doing "everything" on a clock posedge
03:26:31 <Fiora> um I'm not sure if it's what you mean, but like
03:26:44 <Fiora> register -> wires and transistors and stuff -> register
03:26:56 <Fiora> I think the idea is like. the clock is a period of time, and during that period of time, everything in the middle is "on"
03:27:04 <Fiora> and happens at once
03:27:19 <Fiora> but of course like, the signal takes time to travel down the middle, which happens during the clock, which isn't instant
03:27:24 <Bike> but like, then why would you worry about latency in an adder?
03:27:34 <Fiora> so like, towards the start of the clock, a wire near the end might have an interdeterminate state
03:27:44 <Fiora> because the electricity hasn't propagated yet?
03:28:04 <Bike> yeah that's what i'm worried about
03:28:08 <Fiora> and the design rules and stuff ensure that the signal propagates to the end register before the clock ends, basically. so that it's not indeterminate
03:28:28 <Fiora> and so, you worry about latency because that limits how fast you can set your clock
03:28:31 <Bike> that makes sense.
03:28:36 <Fiora> because you can't set your clock faster than the signal propagates?
03:28:39 <Bike> ok, yeah, cool
03:28:42 <Fiora> I think that's right.
03:30:06 <Fiora> so I think when your FPGA thing tells you the clock rate of your design, it did the analysis and found the longest path? and then did math and stuff
03:30:23 <Bike> ok well i'm not as far as that yet, i'm doing the worrying myself >_>
03:30:28 <kmc> with FPGA it's more complicated though because it has these limited interconnects between different parts and it sometimes has to time-division multiplex them, i think
03:32:05 <kmc> and it has to decide where to put everything
03:32:16 <kmc> so it's not just adding up gate delays, but actually doing a really complex optimization problem
03:32:24 <Bike> yeah i think i'm still not sure how fpgas work
03:32:39 <Bike> my ide thing apparently lays things out in terms of logic gates, if only at some intermediate stage
03:33:00 <kmc> anyway note that you don't need clocks for pure combinational logic
03:33:23 <kmc> a pure logic gate (and any circuit of such gates with no feedback) will just have outputs that settle some amount of time after all the inputs have settled
03:33:41 <Bike> right, that's why we haven't learned any clocking in class :p
03:33:46 <kmc> where "settle" means that the voltage is in the "represents 0" or "represents 1" range for the logic family you're using
03:34:19 <kmc> (and really there are two sets of ranges, one for inputs and one for outputs)
03:34:43 <elliott> I should learn circuits by reading a lot of Lava code or something.
03:35:24 <kmc> so you need clocks when you have state, because you need to say when to update the state, presumably after the combinational logic has settled
03:35:32 <Bike> great, a/nother/ hdl
03:35:47 <kmc> (although there are some things that have state but no clocks, like a buffer with a schmitt trigger input)
03:35:51 <elliott> Bike: actually there's about six things called Lava.
03:35:58 <Bike> and i have the wrong xilinx chip.
03:36:13 <Bike> elliott: i'm guessing you mean the one related to circuits and haskell. who could say why i am making such a guess!
03:36:24 <elliott> Bike: I mean there are multiple circuit EDSLs for Haskell called Lava.
03:36:30 <zzo38> What HDL do you like anyways? I didn't like them perfectly due to other problem so I made up my own idea; what kind of feature would you want for HDL, anyways? I would like to know opinion of who does too
03:36:34 <elliott> there's York Lava, Kansas Lava, Chalmers Lava, probably others
03:36:35 * Bike sighs, closes everything
03:36:47 <Bike> back to biology, where the code is shitty but uniform
03:36:56 <mnoqy> ther'es a circuit edsl for scala too. what lanaguage DOESN'T have a circuit edsl at this point
03:37:00 <kmc> you can imagine making a whole processor — fetch, decode, execute, memory, writeback — as pure combinational logic, but the longest gate delay path through there will be really long
03:37:09 <Bike> kmc: right, right
03:37:14 <kmc> which is why pipelining was invented
03:37:32 <Bike> kmc: what fiora said makes this much easier for me to understand intuitively
03:37:34 <elliott> Bike: anyway I like 'em because VHDL and Verilog are so noisy and the Lavas seem nice and declarative (to varying degrees, I like the one that the Reduceron is built with most because it uses observable sharing so there's a lot less noise, even if it's kinda creepy).
03:37:41 <zzo38> mnoqy: I don't know; perhaps INTERCAL? Is there one in Forth?
03:37:44 <kmc> I'm just throwing out things I know now :)
03:37:44 <Bike> and maybe sort of get the async stuff in neural models
03:38:21 <Bike> though i think i'm pretty far from implementing "An FPGA implementation of a polychronous spiking neural network with delay adaptation", soon the brain will be mine
03:38:49 <Bike> elliott: yeah verilog is pretty annoying, it just doesn't matter because i'm doing the circuitry equivalent of writing "convert fahrenheit to degrees" programs
03:39:23 <zzo38> I have used Verilog a little bit but I don't like it all that much; the others seem worse though.
03:39:36 <Bike> i suppose i shouldn't bother asking verilog-specific questions here since nobody seems to know it
03:39:49 <elliott> Bike: you can take a look at http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/memos/Memo23.txt. it's accessible even to me, person who knows nothing about circuits. maybe it'll just make you feel worse about having to use verilog though
03:39:54 <mnoqy> my experience with verilog is using it in conjunction with an ide to write a dumb pipelined processor for a schoolcourse
03:39:55 <Fiora> Bike: I basically know, like, my remnants of attempts to intuitively understand it -_-
03:40:17 <mnoqy> so i possibly have memories of a tiny bit of verilog
03:41:04 <Bike> elliott: why is this already talking about clock cycles... whatever, i'm just making a fuckin adder
03:41:30 <kmc> Bike: so I think the FPGA has its own clock, separate from any clocks you might built into your design
03:41:48 <kmc> things that look like pure combinational logic might still need to be implemented using clocks
03:41:53 <kmc> because of sharing those interconnects, etc
03:42:10 <Bike> there's one clock provided to me but i think others were mentioned
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03:43:26 <Bike> looking at the xilinx development internals has kind of soured me from learning about how the chip actually works, though >_>
03:44:46 <zzo38> I think you had better figure it out anyways so that it can be programmed by making a program in the FPGA to do it, so that you don't need the other computer to make it.
03:45:31 <Bike> What I mean is, zzo38, that to do that (which I would like to do,, in the abstract), I would essentially have to reverse engineer a few gigabytes worth of tools, which I don't really have the expertise or will to do.
03:45:56 <zzo38> Ask someone else to do.
03:46:18 <Bike> zzo38: Could you reverse engineer a few gigabytes worth of proprietary tools for me?
03:47:21 <zzo38> I don't think so, but I expect that maybe many people can try to do it together.
03:50:15 <zzo38> That includes anyone who has the file (I don't).
03:50:45 <Bike> you can get the system free, actually.
03:50:54 <Bike> free as in lack of beer, obviously
03:51:25 <zzo38> I don't have those FPGA though. Even if I had the program it won't help if I don't have FPGA as well.
03:52:20 <Bike> you don't need the physical board to figure out how the programs work.
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03:53:19 <zzo38> Having the physical board too would help
03:55:36 <zzo38> What kind of features would you intend to have in hardware programming languages?
03:57:12 <zzo38> To me, HWPL would be something like: TRIGGER .CLOCK SET .REGISTER TO .INPUT; or perhaps you wait it continuous instead of by edge, for example: LATCH .CLOCK SET .REGISTER TO .INPUT; CONNECT .REGISTER TO .OUTPUT;
03:57:38 <zzo38> What is your opinion of just this example at least?
03:58:14 <kmc> meanwhile in wired http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/bitcoin-homeless/
03:59:12 <zzo38> Some commands might be: TRIGGER vector SET vector TO vector; LATCH bit SET vector TO vector; CONNECT vector TO vector; CONNECT vector TO vector WHEN bit; and so on.
04:03:16 <elliott> "And he can beef up this daily take with Bitcoin Tapper, a mobile app that doles out about 0.000133 bitcoins a day — a couple of pennies — if he just taps on a digital icon over and over again." kill everyone
04:05:29 <zzo38> MODULE !D_FLIP_FLOP() {.CLOCK,.D,.Q,.NOTQ} BEGIN INPUT {.CLOCK,.D}; REGISTER .Q; OUTPUT .NOTQ; CONNECT ~.Q TO .NOTQ; TRIGGER .CLOCK SET .Q TO .D; END; Is this good?
04:06:56 <mnoqy> Bitcoin beats the shit out of regular money
04:07:15 <elliott> what does it mean that 600k homeless people in the US seems surprisingly low to me
04:07:39 <zzo38> mnoqy: I am just using regular money though, just Canadian coins and bills
04:08:08 <mnoqy> zzo38: i bet it doesn't have any shit in it. you can thank bitcoin for that.
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04:18:29 <Bike> "Each numeric type contains exactly one value." yeah this is grand
04:28:00 <zzo38> Bike: What are you refering to?
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05:14:33 <Jafet> kmc: .oO( https://medium.com/funny-stuff/d7e5d14065f1 )
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05:17:12 <Bike> that's hard to read.
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05:18:43 <Jafet> Only the third part is relevant.
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05:19:25 <Bike> or the homelessness thing.
05:20:22 <Bike> i think it's worth noting that "paid to hit a button for advertisers" is, still, pretty much an actual improvement
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05:51:21 <kmc> neat that numpy lets you get the elements of x which are less than 4 as x[x < 4]
05:51:26 <kmc> because x<4 is an array of bools
05:53:35 <zzo38> Ah, that is interesting, and is a good idea to use array of bools like this.
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14:23:26 <Roujo> @ask Gregor elliott kicked HackEgo on Friday, could you bring it back in the channel? Thank you! =)
14:23:59 <Gregor> Nope. Manifest destiny.
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17:12:20 <zzo38> Why did elliott kick HackEgo on Friday?
17:12:47 <Bike> gone power-mad
17:13:57 <elliott> it was being used for multi-bot spam :p
17:15:00 <zzo38> I suppose you can still access it private anyways
17:15:28 <zzo38> Yes it still works
17:17:01 <zzo38> And things like `list and so on can still be typed into the channel even if HackEgo no longer responds; you will have to filter on the client-side instead, now.
17:17:45 <zzo38> When I told you that at first, you didn't like it; now what do you think?
17:18:56 <Bike> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MY IDEAS NOW, ACADEMY?? MWAHAHAHAHAHA *zzo surrounded by lightning*
17:25:59 <Bike> "Hopefully VIS will get it working soon, but they don't care (or know) much about linux. " ausdfahisdfnqfoiasdf
17:26:31 <Bike> i didn't even know that IT people not knowing some unix was a thing. what a fool i am.
17:39:55 <pikhq> It's a pretty common thing TBH.
17:40:56 <Bike> i don't think this problem is even linux-specific though, so i'll have to find a windows computer to test on. siiiigh
17:44:59 <Bike> i wish my department and the EECS department just shared tech support. what's the fuckin point of splitting it up
17:56:06 <coppro> they don't trust each other
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18:09:58 <Jafet> The computer science department, as a rule, never uses the same tech support.
18:10:30 <Bike> well i mean, i want the CS department's tech support to take over everyone else's, for hopefuly obvious reasons.
18:11:20 <Jafet> The other departments, as a rule, never use the computer science department for tech support.
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18:51:45 <zzo38> What should I call the command to tell it that a label refers to a vocabulary entry? (It is like DW but it sets the internal vocabulary flag in the compiler)
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19:38:02 <Sgeo_> Played Mafia IRL last night. Couldn't stop cracking up when I was maf, still managed to win that round
19:39:20 <oerjan> it's ok as long as it's not evil laughter
19:46:28 <myname> i hate it when other people have ideas that i'd love to have
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20:18:39 <fizzie> "Recommended For You" "The New Nordic Diet - from Gastronomy to Health" ... I don't know about this, Coursera.
20:22:42 <oerjan> the lutefisk diet, guaranteed to lose weigth as long as you eat nothing else.
20:27:57 <Gregor> Corpses shed weight pretty fast.
20:28:30 <oerjan> some people _may_ have claimed the word "else" is redundant there.
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20:50:22 <kmc> can i eat lutefisk and hákarl
20:55:00 <Sgeo_> oerjan: I was laughing when the narrator announced who was killed off
20:55:41 <coppro> great narrators are awesome
20:56:42 <oerjan> "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
20:56:58 <kmc> i'm not sure I am physically capable of eating hákarl
20:57:00 <kmc> it sounds scary
20:57:14 <Sgeo_> They were joking that I was definitely either mafia or really liked death
20:57:21 <Sgeo_> Did I mention Mafia won?
20:57:35 <oerjan> what's so scary, it's just rotten poisonous fish
20:57:44 <zzo38> oerjan: I have seen that quotation before
20:57:54 <zzo38> In a movie, that is how it is.
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20:59:00 <oerjan> zzo38: apparently it's "The 2,000 Year Old Man".
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20:59:50 <oerjan> well, i guess he'll never know.
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21:13:15 <kmc> the lights in my living room are now visualizing the operation of randomly chosen "turing machines" on a finite cyclic tape
21:13:52 <kmc> I wonder if there are heuristics for choosing interesting machines of this sort
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21:18:32 <kmc> Bike: it's often the case that the undergrad-run computing club has better stuff than the CS department or anyone else
21:23:01 <kmc> not in terms of hardware (since it's usually hand-me-downs) but in terms of competence and entertainment value
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21:30:49 <Bike> kmc: the CS IT seems pretty good, they can wrangle the network printers and stuff. meanwhile the LUG is kinda stereotypical :p
21:39:20 <Bike> they had a sign up talking about how linux is better than windows because it's more secure but also just more fun
21:39:48 <Fiora> were they having an argument about which distro is better as you passed by? xD
21:40:28 <kmc> stereotypes of linux user group: likes linux
21:40:30 <Bike> i didn't stick around, was only there to buy my fpga from the ieee people
21:43:01 <Bike> anyway: «Decaf design's initiative aims for global synergy of design area's to "Green" an actual product, while seeking execution by exposure to producers and investors - San Francisco"
21:45:00 <olsner> sounds like they're trying to obfuscate that they haven't figured out what they're doing yet
21:45:53 <Bike> they retweeted a reply i made that seemingly has nothing to do with any of that, and had already retweeted a bunch of weird stuff from strangers multiple times, so i just reported them as spam
21:45:59 <Bike> this will be very effacious i'm sure
21:46:19 <Bike> efficacious* i dunno i love that word
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23:55:32 <Bike> http://c431376.r76.cf2.rackcdn.com/38376/fnins-07-00014-HTML/image_m/fnins-07-00014-t001.jpg hardest of the core
23:56:17 <kmc> huh LUTs as RAM
23:56:24 <kmc> what did you compile
23:56:59 <Bike> not me yet :( it's a neural simulator, most of the ram is axonal properties
23:57:52 <olsner> hmm, I read neural stimulator and thought you were building some kind of mind-computer interface
23:58:48 <oerjan> what you are seeing is just the escaped AI simulating Bike to throw us off while it conquers the world.
00:00:58 <Bike> "bikes, of course, are completely natural"
00:17:11 <Sgeo_> Should I watch Farscape, or should I watch Star Trek Voyager's "Threshold" superimposed with The Last Airbender movie?
00:18:12 <Sgeo_> Because I wanted to be silly?
00:18:23 <Sgeo_> I'm bored, might watch some Farscape, or might not, not sure
00:18:34 <Sgeo_> (The second option isn't a real option, as I hope was obvious)
00:21:41 <Sgeo_> Would you rather be forced to watch "Threshold" or The Last Airbender movie?
00:22:19 <Phantom_Hoover> considering one is ~40 minutes long and the other is probably at least two hours...
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00:25:44 <olsner> Sgeo_: watch threshold then watch some farscape
00:29:17 <olsner> why would I be different?
00:29:48 <oerjan> they deleted DMM's wikipedia page :(
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00:30:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i assumed you'd been abducted at birth from norway or finland or somewhere
00:39:03 <oerjan> and the IWC page has an AFD...
00:40:49 <zzo38> It is why making the other Wikipedia, you can join them together in case of things deleted from Wikipedia so you can access both kinds
00:58:23 <Sgeo_> I should resume watching Ghost in the Shell at some point
01:05:42 <Sgeo_> Eh, I prefer shades of grey to black and white. I think I'll go watch Farscape instead
01:06:42 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I don't remember watching "Taking the Stone", but Amazon thinks I've watched it
01:07:35 <Sgeo_> Oh, I stopped watching in the first few minutes
01:08:49 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover: are you saying to skip it?
01:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> especially since crackers don't matter is the next episode
01:20:02 <zzo38> Another use of zero length array in C may be type identification in macros.
01:20:51 <nooodl> they're also useful if you want to keep track of 0 of something
01:21:32 <zzo38> nooodl: Well, if the zero isn't a literal, then perhaps yes.
01:23:21 <zzo38> The main use as described in the GCC manual, is to make a array at the end of a structure, which you do not know the size until it is allocated.
01:24:12 <zzo38> However there are some other uses too.
01:24:36 <zzo38> Do you know of any others?
01:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo it... would probably help if you'd give context before saying things like <zzo38> Another use of zero length array in C may be type identification in macros.
01:25:00 <zzo38> (They also do not have to be at the end; it can be useful at the beginning or whatever too)
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01:26:41 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't it describe already in those sentence, though?
01:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well... no, you hadn't said what the first use of zero-length arrays is.
01:28:13 <nooodl> i think Phantom_Hoover means: you said "another use ..." without a first use being mentioned
01:28:43 <nooodl> (but i guess you meant "beside the main use" which you described afterwards?)
01:28:56 <zzo38> No, I just mean, another use, in general.
01:30:40 <zzo38> What I mean by type identification in macro may be something like: typedef struct { char x[2]; } Two; typedef struct { char x[3]; } Three; typedef struct { Three type_id[0]; ... I haven't actually tried it though
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03:04:43 <zzo38> It is not equinox quite yet! It is tomorrow.
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05:42:42 <zzo38> In a hardware programming language I think it make more sense for numbers without a prefix to be in binary. What is your opinion?
05:43:14 <Bike> mostly that verilog literals are super awkward and i can imagine almost any change as an improvement
05:43:21 <Bike> i found out vhdl has a nice "others" thing
05:44:29 <ais523> in Verilog, you create std_logic_vectors using double quotes
05:44:39 <ais523> and yeah, you can use "others" to abbreviate
05:44:57 <ais523> (0 => '0', 1 => '0', others => '1')
05:49:00 <Bike> yeah it took me a while to get but it seems nice
05:49:31 <Bike> (my instructor/supplier doesn't know verilog but is moving his course to it for some reason, so all the old interesting files are still vhdl)
05:52:27 <ais523> VHDL syntax is both verbose and bizarre
05:52:29 <zzo38> I didn't know of the "others"
05:52:38 <ais523> but it normally does contain some way to do what you want
05:52:53 <zzo38> What does (0 => '0', 1 => '0', others => '1') do, exactly?
05:52:55 <Bike> it's super verbose, yeah
05:53:01 <ais523> you should look up the syntax for a multidimensional array sometime, it's ridiculous
05:53:18 <ais523> zzo38: it means a constant where bits 0 and 1 are 0, and the other bits are 1
05:53:51 <ais523> the constant itself is polymorphic to different bitwidths and data types (it'll work for anything that has a 0 and a 1)
05:53:52 <Bike> it's like an associative array.
05:54:01 <zzo38> ais523: OK I understand.
05:54:07 <ais523> like a vector of bits, or of std_logics
05:54:13 <Bike> polymorphic constant huh... i've been wondering about that in verilog
05:54:13 <zzo38> Still it is different than how I would design, a lot.
05:56:37 <zzo38> My own design is different, you can see how it compares and what features you like and hate and neutral. (I called it "HWPL") I put what I think is better for a hardware programming language; these things are different than what would go in a software programming language. One is that - is unary fanout operator taking a single bit and making a full vector of that bit, so something like {10,-1} or {-1,01} or {10X,-Z,111Z1} or whatever can make a pol
05:56:59 <Bike> Mostly so far I think I'd like more macrology stuff.
05:57:04 <Bike> Instantiation seems... messy.
05:57:22 <zzo38> I would also like to have a lot of support of macros.
05:57:32 <zzo38> It is also part of my design, although I have not designed that part yet.
05:57:38 <Bike> I haven't even tried parametrized instantiation yet, though.
05:57:42 <Bike> gonna make me some adders
05:58:28 <Bike> ais523: btw, for xilinx virtex generally has more meat than spartan, right? if you know.
05:58:47 <zzo38> Decimal and hexadecimal numbers would also be polymorphic in HWPL, although binary numbers (which is the default if no prefix is given) are fixed. Do you like this kind of ideas?
05:59:14 <ais523> Bike: I've heard of both, but can't remember which is more powerful offhand
05:59:20 <ais523> I'd suspect the virtex are more powerful, though
05:59:22 <zzo38> I think Virtex is more powerful?
05:59:26 <ais523> because most of the low-end boards used spartans
05:59:46 <ais523> zzo38: well, in VHDL, a number is just a number
05:59:55 <ais523> you can store "1010" in a 4-bit std_logic_vector
06:00:01 <Bike> wondering because this paper used virtex and i was wondering what i could fake on my cheap spartan
06:00:07 <ais523> but you can't store 10 without converting it to a std_logic_vector first
06:00:25 <ais523> you'd have to do conv_std_logic_vector(10, 4) if you wanted to specify it in decimal
06:01:18 <ais523> likewise, if you want to use a std_logic_vector as an array index (say you're accessing block RAM), you have to convert it to an integer first using conv_integer, because array indexes are integers
06:01:31 <zzo38> I made it differently; in HWPL there are no "numbers", only vectors; they have different properties such as static or dynamic or whatever to tell how they can be used.
06:02:04 <Bike> No numbers? What about extrahardware values?
06:02:33 <zzo38> They will be static vectors; they can be used as numbers in macros and so on.
06:03:29 <Bike> What about negative ones?
06:04:12 <fizzie> Bike: You'd think the Spartan would be the one that has less bling.
06:04:48 <Bike> fizzie: yeah i thought that, but then i thought to myself, "what the fuck is a virtex supposed to be"
06:04:54 <Bike> "I don't remember a fucking virtex city state"
06:05:03 <zzo38> Since they are polymorphic they can be negative too, like #-42 and the compiler would make as many bits as needed for a signed integer value to use with the computer, if negative numbers are valid in such places, which it might not be.
06:05:25 <Bike> But I mean, this is a value that isn't even in the hardware.
06:06:05 <zzo38> Bike: Yes I know what you mean; if a macro takes a 32-bit signed integer then you can get a 32-bit static vector with the high bit being the signed bit, for example.
06:06:32 <zzo38> Alternatively, implicit casts may be used.
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06:07:41 <zzo38> In such case, something like #42 or $2A is a number, and 101010 is a vector, but you can implicitly cast between them.
06:07:46 <zzo38> That could be another way.
06:09:05 <zzo38> Actually, I think I like this way better; it works if the compiler requires bignums for something, too.
06:10:24 <zzo38> Do you like this way better?
06:11:20 <zzo38> (There is no need for explicit casts.)
06:11:59 <zzo38> Of course you cannot cast dynamic vectors to numbers.
06:13:02 <ais523> zzo38: oh, one thing your language must have is recursive module instantiation (using if..generate in order to give a base case)
06:13:19 <ais523> in VHDL, there's an obvious syntax for it, but it tends to crash compilers or drive them into an infinite loop
06:13:25 <ais523> so I suspect it isn't allowed
06:13:43 <Bike> working off a parameter?
06:14:53 <zzo38> ais523: Yes; it would need such thing in macros. Powerful macro facility is an important thing I need to have, which allows it to do that, and other things.
06:15:36 <ais523> Bike: VHDL has "generics", which are basically compile-time parameters
06:15:39 <ais523> or, like, template arguments
06:15:42 <ais523> you'd work off one of those
06:16:16 <Bike> verilog calls them "parameters" near as i can tell
06:16:35 <ais523> yeah, VHDL and Verilog have an effectively equivalent feature set
06:16:43 <ais523> just different names and syntax for everything
06:16:55 <Bike> yeah :/ boring
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06:20:42 <Bike> it's kind of annoying taking a hardware class on all this "low level" stuff and then learning that it's super far from the realities of LUTs
06:23:41 <ais523> well, a LUT is basically an arbitrary 4- or 6- input 1-output logic gate that can optionally only change on clock edges
06:23:44 <zzo38> Perhaps, if ? specifies macro parameters then it might be: MODULE !X(?X) .X: BEGIN IF |?X: !X(?X-#1); ... I think that would do it, isn't it?
06:24:01 <ais523> plus some special cases for things like reset circuitry
06:24:55 <Bike> ais523: right, well, we ain't talkin about that in class, is what's sad
06:25:26 <ais523> it's a pretty simple definition, really
06:25:50 <ais523> and an FPGA just lets you connect them together in various patterns (not arbitrary patterns, there are actually quite a lot of limits in practice, which is why place and route takes so long)
06:25:55 <Bike> i just kind of want to know more about how the system is actually working
06:26:03 <Bike> right, like i don't even know what the heck place and route is
06:26:04 <ais523> together with various special-purpose blocks like multipliers and block RAM
06:26:28 <Bike> http://c431376.r76.cf2.rackcdn.com/38376/fnins-07-00014-HTML/image_m/fnins-07-00014-t001.jpg from the paper i was reading earlier; barely know what this means
06:26:33 <ais523> well the first stage of compile is parsing the source code, then working out what circuitry it corresponds to
06:26:42 <ais523> then placement is where it figures out which circuitry goes on which place of the chip
06:26:48 <ais523> and routing works out how they interconnect
06:26:54 <ais523> then after that is assembly and programming
06:27:00 <ais523> there are sometimes system-specific steps in between
06:27:03 <zzo38> If you understand my code, is it like the kind of things you meant? (Well, it contains an error; instead of !X(?X-#1); you need something like !X(?X-#1) .Y; since an I/O vector is needed)
06:27:55 <ais523> anyway, there are two main ways you can use a LUT
06:28:08 <ais523> either you can just use its truthtable behaviour, and have it calculate some logical predicate for you
06:28:19 <ais523> or you can ignore that and just care about the clock edge behaviour, that gives you a RAM
06:28:19 <Bike> But like, say I make a half adder module, a xor and and; does that become one LUT? if i have multiple half adders does it collapse them into one LUT? that kind of thing
06:28:24 <ais523> (and ofc they can be combined)
06:28:36 <ais523> well a LUT typically only has one output
06:28:43 <ais523> so your half adder is two LUTs
06:28:51 <ais523> a full adder is also two LUTs
06:29:00 <ais523> because it has two outputs, and three inputs (which is ≤ 4)
06:29:17 <ais523> and a LUT on a low-end FPGA can represent an arbitrary Boolean function with 4 or fewer inputs and one output
06:29:33 <ais523> (higher-end FPGAs have more inputs on their LUTs, 6 or even 8)
06:29:59 <Bike> i assume a LUT has more "inputs" used for programming in a truth table?
06:31:13 <ais523> well you can think of it as having 4 inputs that are part of the circuit you're designing, and 16 that tell it which circuit to design
06:31:20 <ais523> but those 16 are "ROM" rather than RAM
06:31:36 <Bike> any chance for self modification?
06:31:56 <ais523> there are systems on which it's possible, but it's really complex
06:32:07 <ais523> because it's optimized for read, and typically really awkward to write
06:32:17 <Bike> also, huh, that means the high end luts could have 256 program inputs
06:32:29 <Bike> is that why programming my fpga takes an amount of time that's like, noticeable?
06:32:34 <Bike> the awkward to read thing i mean
06:32:41 <Bike> to write*, fuck
06:32:53 <ais523> one of the reasons, probably the main one
06:33:09 <ais523> the other one's just a matter of bandwidth
06:33:17 <ais523> you can only drive so much data through a JTAG cable
06:33:48 <Bike> what is jtag exactly, i just sort of plug my usb in and things happen
06:33:51 <zzo38> Self modification would be easier on a open source FPGA anyways; once they are made then you can do a lot of things that closed source FPGAs don't do. They could compete well with existing FPGAs and I expect both kinds would remain in business; a company that does both would make a lot of sales, I suppose.
06:33:56 <Bike> sorry for asking so many questions btw
06:34:13 <zzo38> I think you should not be sorry for asking so many questions btw.
06:34:28 <ais523> and JTAG's just a cable design + port shape, like RS232 or USB or whatever
06:34:36 <Bike> What's it stand for?
06:34:39 <ais523> but it's what's normally used to program hardware
06:34:47 <ais523> and I don't know, but Wikipedia probably does
06:34:57 <ais523> I've never really needed to know
06:35:03 <ais523> "Joint Test Action Group"
06:35:05 <ais523> I vaguely remember that
06:35:22 <ais523> "Joint Test Action Group (JTAG) is the common name for the IEEE 1149.1 Standard Test Access Port and Boundary-Scan Architecture. It was initially devised by electronic engineers for testing printed circuit boards using boundary scan and is still widely used for this application."
06:35:23 <Bike> hm, apparently
06:35:31 <ais523> and yeah, it's used for hardware debuggers
06:35:44 <ais523> but it's used for programming too
06:35:58 <Bike> I guess that makes sense. similar things.
06:36:05 <ais523> basically, to debug hardware, you shift all the values out of its debug registers, and shift the test pattern for the next cycle in at the same time
06:36:17 <ais523> replace "debug register" with "program register" and now you have a programmer
06:36:51 <ais523> although typically that's a stupid way to implement it and the programming circuits are entirely different
06:37:09 <Bike> do you do anything with analog for your jobgradstudentthing?
06:37:18 <zzo38> ais523: Is the example I gave anything like what you meant by recursive module instantiation, and do you expect such a thing would work?
06:37:36 <ais523> zzo38: well it's in a syntax I don't recognise
06:37:43 <ais523> Bike: no, it's all entirely digital
06:38:07 <ais523> I did a bunch of analog for my masters degree, though
06:38:45 <ais523> actually, our plan for the analog stuff was hilarious
06:38:54 <ais523> we needed to do Fourier analysis and the like
06:39:03 <zzo38> ais523: Well, after the module name is the parameters in parentheses, followed by the I/O vector, and then, if ORing all bits together in the macro parameter results in the bit being set, it will call the module again with one less.
06:39:24 <ais523> so our plan was just "let's get a microcontroller fast enough to do the processing, with the best-quality A to D we can afford"
06:40:09 <Bike> ugh, i made the mistake of looking up the school boards' ethernet hardware. don't understand a lick of it, and here i was thinking i knew how adcs worked
06:40:26 <ais523> and I don't think that bit of the design is the bit that failed
06:40:28 <Bike> looked up one of the terms used and it was a circuit thing invented by somebody who worked on squid axons in the 30s. insane
06:41:17 <ais523> well the most common adc design is just a dac in a negative feedback loop
06:41:45 <Bike> don't bother, i already found out i don't understand anything :(
06:42:22 <zzo38> Bike: Then you must learn.
06:42:25 <Bike> and i was all excited to program my fpga to specifically annoy elliott
06:43:28 <zzo38> ais523: Does this description of the syntax help you to understand it?
06:45:17 <Bike> zzo38: yeah i'm just being dramatic. apparently the basis of much of modern technology isn't simple?? ripoff imo.
06:45:59 <zzo38> ais523: Can you please be more specific in your question?
06:46:15 <ais523> zzo38: well there isn't a description that I can see
06:46:29 <zzo38> Maybe you missed it; it is written above.
06:46:56 <zzo38> I will repeat it: After the module name is the parameters in parentheses, followed by the I/O vector, and then, if ORing all bits together in the macro parameter results in the bit being set, it will call the module again with one less.
06:47:35 <ais523> that seems like a bit of a complex special case
06:48:11 <ais523> and one that wouldn't fit the sort of recursion I actually needed (I needed to instantiate two modules, each with half the bits)
06:49:06 <zzo38> Yes that isn't it, although you could make it to do that too.
06:49:28 <zzo38> Especially if you have an implicit parameter it could
06:49:59 <ais523> I don't like implicit parameters
06:50:10 <Sgeo_> I think I accidentally sequence broke in Antichamber
06:50:12 <zzo38> It could be explicit too
06:50:27 <Bike> you could use a carry-select adder as a simple recursive example, maybe
06:51:09 <Bike> kind of a shitty design but probably simple to understand?
06:51:20 <Bike> by which i mean, i can understand it
06:52:17 <zzo38> MODULE !X(?COUNT) .X: BEGIN IF ?COUNT=1: BEGIN ... END ELSE: BEGIN !X(?COUNT/#2) .X[?COUNT/#2-1:0]; ... Of course this is incomplete but maybe it is understandable a bit
06:52:31 <zzo38> It probably wouldn't be quite exactly like this either
06:52:37 <zzo38> I don't know exactly how you mean, either
06:53:48 <zzo38> ais523: Is this a little bit close? Clearly it isn't quite sufficient; even the parts that aren't omitted are incomplete.
06:54:04 <Bike> this syntax is hard to read and i kind of automatically hate it?
06:54:47 <ais523> zzo38: well it's not as simple as my description in practice either
06:55:12 <zzo38> ais523: I wouldn't expect it to be; both of us just give the examples
06:56:34 <Taneb> It's less than a week away now
06:56:48 <Bike> the apocalypse?
06:57:13 <Taneb> zzo38, wasn't the equinox the day before yesterday?
06:57:54 <Taneb> Oh, it was yesterday
06:58:04 <Taneb> I actually watched sunrise on the equinox
06:58:11 <Taneb> And then went to an anime con
06:58:23 <zzo38> No it wasn't yesterday.
06:58:56 <zzo38> It is 22 Sep at 20:44 GMT.
06:59:17 <Taneb> Oh god that's today
06:59:22 <Taneb> it's moving forwards
06:59:54 <zzo38> That is why we have leap years.
07:00:29 <Taneb> The only thing I've eaten in the last 24 hours is a small chocolate cake
07:00:42 <Bike> was the cake good
07:00:58 <Taneb> There was a cosplay maid service
07:01:34 <zzo38> I calculated the equinox using the horoscope in my computer; just now I also checked on Wikipedia to confirm and it says the same thing.
07:06:01 <zzo38> In Astrolog, the indications of ecliptic longitudes are colored according to the classical element they are associated with, making it very easy to see where it changes.
07:07:08 <zzo38> Some printed calendars also indicate exactly when the equinox is, but the one I have doesn't have that.
07:12:21 <zzo38> What anime con was that?
07:12:38 <zzo38> I have not gone to anime this year, but I did last year and may do so again next year.
07:14:59 <Taneb> zzo38, it was just a small local one
07:15:18 <Taneb> It's a smaller spin-off from one of the larger local ones
07:15:52 <zzo38> Did they have mahjong there? Some anime conventions sometimes have mahjong. Once I brought my Washizu mahjong game to an anime convention and played against one of the other people there
07:16:51 <Taneb> I cannot recall ever seeing mahjong at an anime con
07:16:58 <Taneb> I saw Go at one, though
07:18:05 <zzo38> I saw shogi at one, not as a scheduled event though but something someone was doing in their spare time in the games room. I have read about ones with mahjong but haven't seen it except when I brought it once
07:18:24 <coppro> I don't think I've ever been to an anime con
07:19:16 <zzo38> I have once won a Magic: the Gathering tournament in an anime convention, although due to one of my opponents conceding an entire match, my score was not entered into the computer correctly.
07:19:38 <zzo38> I have lost (and gotten last place) in all other M:tG tournaments I have ever played in.
07:23:17 <zzo38> coppro: Why aren't you sure?
07:25:33 <coppro> zzo38: I have gone to M:tG tournaments at conventions mostly and have not paid attention to the convention itself
07:25:46 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you know how to play shogi or mahjong though? Do you know how to play Washizu mahjong (from the "Akagi" manga)?
07:26:01 <Taneb> I do not know at all
07:26:03 <zzo38> coppro: Constructed, Limited, or both?
07:26:14 <Taneb> I can't even play solitaire mahjong
07:26:16 <zzo38> When I go to the convention I do pay attention to the other things too
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07:28:22 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, solitaire mahjong can be explained in only a few sentences pretty easily. Mahjong is more complicated (although the same tiles are used).
07:28:44 <Taneb> And I am the worst at Go
07:29:05 <zzo38> I am not very good at Go either, but at least I can play. Can you play shogi at all?
07:29:21 <Taneb> I don't think I actually know what shogi is
07:29:25 <zzo38> Do you know any manga by Fukumoto?
07:30:05 <zzo38> Taneb: Shogi is a Japanese game which is like chess, although using flat pieces, the owner is known by the direction rather than the color, on a 9x9 board, and once you capture an opponent's piece you can on a later turn, put it back in the board as your own piece.
07:31:28 <ais523> and you can promote pieces by moving them into, out of, or through the back three rows of the board
07:31:45 <ais523> although most pieces just promote into golds, which aren't amazingly good, so promoting them isn't as worthwhile as in Western chess
07:31:46 <zzo38> I have played tsume shogi games on GameBoy and I like those kind of games (especially the one by Athena). They are like a chess puzzle, but with shogi, and you must give check on every turn. I have solved a lot of them but not nearly even half of them yet.
07:31:57 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that too.
07:32:14 <zzo38> Shogi pieces promote to whatever is on the other side of the piece, rather than the choice like in FIDE.
07:32:50 <ais523> also there's some rule that you can't drop pawns to give or block checkmate, or something like that; I can't remember the details but zzo38 probably knows
07:33:09 <zzo38> You cannot drop a pawn to give checkmate (you can give check, though).
07:33:20 <zzo38> Other pieces can be dropped to give checkmate.
07:33:28 <ais523> but no rule against dropping a pawn to block a checkmate?
07:33:40 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, there is no rule against that.
07:33:50 <ais523> also, that rule against dropping pawns to give checkmate seems oddly specific
07:33:57 <ais523> I wonder why it exists, there's probably a good reason
07:34:14 <zzo38> Another rule for pawn drops is you cannot do so if there is already another of your own unpromoted pawn in the same column.
07:34:56 <ais523> yeah, that one makes more sense though
07:35:10 <ais523> also, you can't move a piece in such a way that it would be unable to move further
07:35:21 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know, but at least it does make interesting situations for some tsume shogi.
07:35:21 <ais523> so if you move a pawn to the back rank, or a knight to the back two ranks, you must promote it
07:35:32 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is correct too; you must promote it and cannot drop it there
07:36:01 <ais523> and dropping a piece in the promotion zone isn't enough to promote it
07:36:05 <ais523> (otherwise people would do that all the time)
07:36:33 <zzo38> Yes, that is also correct. It must move.
07:38:01 <zzo38> Some of the kind of situations I describe means that the defending player should not always promote a piece that is strictly more powerful when promoted (flying chariot (rook) and angle mover (bishop))
07:38:36 <Taneb> I am not a very good strategist
07:39:15 <zzo38> I am a good strategist for some games.
07:39:29 <zzo38> (including Dungeons&Dragons game, but also including some computer games)
07:42:16 <Taneb> zzo38, have you ever heard of the tabletop RPG Diana: Warrior Princess?
07:42:20 <zzo38> I think some people on this channel who did not know mahjong once said it is as confusing as Mornington Crescent. Well, I can tell you that it isn't. (Search the logs)
07:42:52 <Taneb> The premise is "What if Xena: Warrior Princess was made in 2000 years time and set in the present day?"
07:43:17 <Taneb> I'm going to try to GM it when I get to uni
07:46:28 <zzo38> However, I sometimes overSicilian them.
07:47:48 <zzo38> Do you want your character to worship the god who shall not be named because it is difficult to pronounce?
07:49:52 <zzo38> It is the god of my character, at least.
07:55:24 <zzo38> When I gave the DM several suggestions that would make the game much more difficult, he has suggestion I design the campaign templates and then he will adjust it to his use. I partially do so; some things I purposefully keep hidden from myself!
07:57:37 <zzo38> Even though he makes up situations which he believes to have no solution, somehow I always find them anyways; he isn't being "diabolical" enough (when I explained things to him even in contexts completely unrelated to the game, he has called my ideas "extremely diabolical" simply because he cannot think of it himself, I suppose).
07:57:53 <zzo38> And he is an intelligent person!
07:59:30 <Taneb> I don't think I'd enjoy being in a game GM'd by you, I'd probably get trapped in a small room with a hatch 40 feet up with only a rake
08:00:31 <zzo38> If you managed to do so, it would probably be your own fault for not being sufficiently careful.
08:00:44 <zzo38> Or for making incorrect assumptions.
08:00:45 <Jafet> That's not so hard; it depends on how many toothpicks you are given.
08:04:46 <Taneb> Yesterday there was a team Adventure Time quiz
08:05:02 <Taneb> In my team neither of us had actually watched Adventure Time
08:05:08 <Taneb> We scored I think 8/12
08:06:48 <zzo38> I know that I have invented some puzzles on computer games, where the people who wrote the rules for the game, also being very good at the puzzles, gave up after several tries.
08:07:44 <zzo38> (Even viewing the source codes for the puzzles, which I encouraged; this tends to deceive people even more despite being written clearly.)
08:09:23 <zzo38> There are some kind of puzzle games that I am very good at. (Others I am pretty bad at, however.)
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08:14:10 <zzo38> Incorrect assumptions are made, such as: Healing potions and kill enemies potions are good for you, wind potions are bad for you, BIG_MONSTER is evil and you should kill them, certain objects cannot be pushed, a key should be collected right away, Hell is not in Norway, most rooms have yellow walls, and other things.
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09:53:23 <Taneb> Isn't Hell in Jamaica
09:56:53 <Taneb> Cayman Islands, sorry
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11:22:50 <nortti> http://catpad.net/michael/apl/
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14:34:51 <impomatic> Al Zimmermann has announced his latest Programming Contest "Graceful Graphs" http://azspcs.net/Contest/GracefulGraphs
14:41:18 <Bike> i don't get it, can't you just have a depth one tree with 0 as the root
14:43:08 <Bike> oh, you don't need the vertex labels to be contiguous, i gues
14:46:09 <impomatic> It appears to be the same problem as optimal sparse rulers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparse_ruler
14:49:08 <oerjan> <Taneb> Isn't Hell in Jamaica <-- no it is most definitely in norway. just had their yearly blues festival.
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16:52:09 <zzo38> My brother has suggested that the "Attribute Zone" game might be easier to understand if played on an actual NES/Famicom system.
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18:36:32 <zzo38> coppro: Then what do you think it is?
18:36:40 <zzo38> to be more likely?
18:36:54 <zzo38> Do you know anything about it at all anyways?
18:36:59 <zzo38> Have you programmed Famicom?
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18:49:19 <coppro> zzo38: I'm pretty sure I've done constructed
18:49:27 <coppro> I don't think I've done limited
18:49:51 <zzo38> You haven't done Limited? I only do Limited.
18:56:47 <zzo38> The conventions I was in offer both kinds
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19:56:23 <function> in prolog grt_than(sucC(0), 0). grt_than(sucC(A), sucC(B)) :- grt_than(A, B). I don't see why grt_than(sucC(sucC(0)),0). is false
19:57:20 <myname> because the difference is false
19:57:43 <zzo38> That doesn't look completed to me
19:58:20 <myname> you never say that 2 > 0
19:58:34 <impomatic> The new Al Zimmermann programming contest seems easier than usual. Unless I've missed something http://azpcs.net
19:58:45 <function> now to figure out how to do this with only 2 clauses
19:58:57 <myname> 21:57:29 <myname> grt_than(suc(X),0).
19:59:08 <myname> ANY successor is greater than 0
19:59:41 <zzo38> Yes I suppose that would make it completed.
20:00:08 <myname> i really like the idea of prolog, but i'm just plain stupid when it comes to io
20:00:36 <myname> i think i made a valid deadfish interpreter in prolog, but i'm too dumb to process strings :D
20:01:00 <myname> in the wiki is none last time i checked
20:05:51 <Vorpal> Hm, Wolfram Alpha is really useful for answering mathematical trivia questions.
20:06:12 <Vorpal> Like "what is the ratio of the surface areas of the moon and the earth"
20:10:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I never really found a use for W|A until now indeed
20:10:58 <Phantom_Hoover> useless numerical trivia is basically the primary feature of WA
20:11:19 <Vorpal> I guess that and solving integrals for homework
20:12:48 <Bike> unit conversions are also convenient. and good for homework.
20:13:34 <Phantom_Hoover> unit conversions are basically a subset of numerical trivia
20:14:42 <fizzie> Hrm. I wonder if anything is going to break real bad if I just dd-clone a GPT disk (1T, partitions on the first 240G, rest unallocated) onto a smaller (512G) disk, and then swap it in place of the original. (E.g. is the disk size recorded in the GPT disklabel or something.)
20:15:32 <elliott> you're not meant to duplicate a GPT disk like that because the identifiers are meant to be unique or whatever
20:15:50 <elliott> I don't know if it'll actually explode as long as you don't let the original disk within a ten mile radius, but there are scary warnings telling you it's bad around the internet.
20:16:11 <elliott> there's probably GPT-specific cloning tools that correctly reassign identifiers and stuff?
20:16:33 <fizzie> Well, I mean, I could just recreate the partitions with gdisk, they'd get random GUIDs.
20:16:46 <fizzie> What I'm wondering is if that'd mess up the Windows living on the disk.
20:20:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suspect you would need the GUIDs to not vary if you want Windows to work, as for doing it to a smaller disk, do the partitions fit on the smaller disk?
20:20:34 <fizzie> (240 is less than 512.)
20:21:15 <Vorpal> Also you are not allowed to connect both drives in the same device after you cloned the disk, at least Windows will not like it.
20:21:21 <Vorpal> I forgot what actually happens if you try it
20:21:29 <fizzie> Well, that's not an issue.
20:21:43 <Vorpal> I guess you could try cloning it, and see if it works
20:21:45 <fizzie> I could dd over the network so that the two disks are never in a single computer simultaneously.
20:21:52 <Vorpal> if it doesn't, then you could just try cloning it another way
20:22:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, why are you moving to a smaller disk btw?
20:22:27 <fizzie> The 512G disk is a SSD, the 1T disk is not.
20:23:08 <fizzie> Wikipedia's list of GPT headers doesn't seem to have any size information, though it mentions there's a copy of the disklabel "somewhere". (With my luck, at the opposite end of the disk.)
20:23:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, Ah, Windows may or may not like a change like that. At least I doubt it will be using TRIM properly unless you change some settings
20:23:40 <fizzie> "The values for current and backup LBAs of the primary header should be the second sector of the disk and the last sector of the disk" well naturally.
20:24:00 <fizzie> I guess I could try use some sort of proper Windows solution of backup-reinstall-restore.
20:25:00 <Vorpal> elliott, what about putting GPT disks into RAID 1? Surely that means that there are technically duplicate disks?
20:25:46 <fizzie> Not if both disks have their own GPT disklabel and different partitions that work as the RAID backing-storage.
20:25:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I meant hardware RAID 1
20:26:17 <fizzie> I suppose that's no problem since it's not something the OS logically sees?
20:26:46 <elliott> I guess OSes are in their right to store a map from the GUIDs to every physical thing about the disk they know.
20:26:58 <elliott> so in theory things could explode.
20:27:19 <Vorpal> Well it probably won't, except that TRIM might not be used automatically
20:27:35 <Vorpal> wrt the backup block at the end though, hrrm
20:28:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=154057
20:28:13 <Vorpal> Haven't read it, just saw the title on searching
20:28:15 <elliott> fizzie: anyway perhaps you should clone the disk and then smash the old one to pieces.
20:28:22 <elliott> think of it like teleportation.
20:29:14 <fizzie> There's some sort of lifehacker.com guide about migrating Windows to a smaller SSD drive, that seems a Windows-native solution
20:29:27 <zzo38> Or just for backup, keep it
20:29:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems there are issues with migrating to a smaller disk indeed
20:30:18 <fizzie> Of course that seems to use some sort of "EaseUS Todo Backup" software that I'm not terribly sure I want to bother with.
20:31:06 <fizzie> It does claim that rerunning the Windows Experience Assessment will turn on TRIM and stuff like that.
20:34:12 <fizzie> There's some other guide that uses Windows' own "create a system image" backup tool, then reinstalls Windows on the SSD and does a system restore. I suppose my options are either trying the clone thing (with whatever GPT backup disklabel move with gpt expert options nonsense) or something like that.
20:35:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah it seems like that link I posted shows you how to solve it wrt. dd
20:36:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess you would need to do this if you expand the disk too
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21:25:09 <zzo38> A few days of Z-Comp remains, actually.
21:25:40 <oerjan> anyone know how to hack HackEgo back? >:)
21:27:01 <Taneb> Sgeo_, Fiora Homestuck update
21:27:39 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know, but things like `slist can still be used, and will work if they are filtered on the client-side instead of server-side.
21:27:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:28:25 <zzo38> I will still enter `danddreclist when it is updated even though HackEgo won't respond, so if you want to be notified you have to configure your client to do so instead, please.
21:29:40 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
21:34:16 <oerjan> more like exile, really.
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21:35:36 <zzo38> HackEgo is still connected though so it can still be accessed.
21:36:02 <zzo38> And the lists can still be used like how I described. (In fact I described it even before HackEgo was gone but you didn't believe me.)
21:36:46 <oerjan> i didn't disbelieve you. i just didn't see the point.
21:37:08 <zzo38> Well, now you should see the point.
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22:19:04 <Sgeo_> Is the guru still meditating?
22:23:17 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
22:44:51 <fizzie> Welp, that's passing strange: the clone method seems to have worked.
22:53:07 <kmc> what are you cloning
22:53:55 <fizzie> A 1T HDD with a GPT disklabel, Windows 8 and EFI boot stuffs for Debian, onto a 512GB SSD.
22:54:00 <fizzie> The sordid details are in the log.
23:04:47 <kmc> slow riot for new zero kanada
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23:14:00 <kmc> we need a new /topic, this one has lasted alarmingly long
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23:31:21 <Phantom_Hoover> why am i reading wp's list of common false etymologies
23:33:26 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies
23:33:42 <Phantom_Hoover> (they're not all acronyms but they're all cringeworthy)
23:34:56 <oerjan> now make a list of cringeworthy _true_ etymologies.
23:35:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: topic undergoing maintenance.
23:38:04 <oerjan> also, what's that "norwegian fukka" the article mentions, i suspect that should be old norse instead.
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23:38:45 -!- oerjan has kicked Phantom_Hoover He removed the log link.
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23:39:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: topic undergoing maintenance | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
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23:49:12 <kmc> copumpkin: wow, so bored on a sunday afternoon that you're picking fights with internet libertarians? ;)
23:49:31 <oerjan> try librarians instead.
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00:18:15 <copumpkin> genuinely curious how people explain things like that
00:18:25 <Bike> boredom or libertarianism
00:18:26 <copumpkin> I have plenty of explanations I'd propose, but am still wondering
00:20:16 <kmc> is the question "why do libertarians tend to be well-off white dudes" cause I don't think that one is very difficult to explain
00:23:27 <kmc> what do you think of futarchy, copumpkin
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00:25:00 <Bike> nah, it's something something prediction markets
00:25:18 <copumpkin> let me try to put my finger on a concern though, or read more and find it's handled :P
00:26:59 <Bike> http://fabiensanglard.net/rayTracing_back_of_business_card/ wat
00:27:26 <kmc> instead of voting on policies, you vote to determine a social utility function, and then use prediction markets to pursue policies which maximize that utility function
00:27:37 <kmc> I don't know much more than that summary, but it's a cool idea anyway
00:29:04 <Bike> what's the point of a business card you can't read!
00:29:13 <kmc> it's cool 'cause it uses the ability of markets to optimize stuff, but without the libertarian assumption that what markets optimize 'by default' is fair or good
00:29:42 <copumpkin> my concern is that it isn't just gov't that could affect the things being bet on
00:29:52 <copumpkin> it could create perverse private incentives to make programs fail
00:30:31 <Bike> this page calls typedef "define" and a struct a class. okay, then
00:31:11 <Bike> hah, !v for normalization
00:31:55 <kmc> Bike: well struct and class are nearly the same in C++
00:32:19 <kmc> the only difference is that structs have public visibility by default, while class has private visibility
00:32:31 <Bike> oh, i didn't think you could have inheritance with structs
00:32:40 <kmc> presumably the author used 'struct{' because it's shorter than 'class{public:'
00:32:52 <kmc> nope, you can do all the same things
00:33:55 <kmc> copumpkin: true
00:34:58 <pikhq> Bike: This also means that class{public: ... } is just a struct. :)
00:35:19 <pikhq> Assuming no methods.
00:36:00 <kmc> C++ has this separate concept of "Plain Old Data" for things that are like C structs, but they can still have (non-virtual) methods
00:36:56 <kmc> arguably a lot of C structs are not Plain Old Data either, it's just that the language provides no way to express this
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00:39:25 <kmc> for example you might say that it should be safe and reasonable to clone a POD object with a simple memcpy(), which does not hold for many C structs
00:40:00 <kmc> I don't know if that's part of the generally used definitions of POD, though
00:40:48 <kmc> Bike: say your struct contains a pointer to a reference-counted object
00:41:02 <kmc> you need to increment the refcount when you copy the struct and hence the pointer
00:42:09 <kmc> in C++ you would express this by using a smart pointer (like std::shared_ptr) for the field, which will make the struct non-POD
00:42:15 <Bike> oh, so like, semantics
00:42:31 <kmc> the neat thing is that the default constructor and destructor in C++ will still do the right thing
00:42:41 <Bike> for some reason i thought not being able to memcpy at all
00:43:47 <Bike> because i am bad at c++
00:44:04 <kmc> C++ is so cool
00:45:14 <kmc> it's ugly and archaic and it's complex to the point of being nearly unusable, but everything does fit together and exist for a reason
00:45:25 <pikhq> It's my favorite esolang.
00:45:35 <kmc> (did you get that meme from me?)
00:45:39 <copumpkin> kmc: money is just too powerful! :P
00:45:51 <pikhq> (probably, but the sentiment was just too good to leave to one man)
00:46:16 <kmc> memes want to spread
00:46:53 <kmc> I might try to design an esolang with region pointers, once I learn how the hell they work
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00:47:15 <Bike> region pointers?
00:47:53 <kmc> Rust's "borrowed pointers" have a "region" or "lifetime" attached which says how long the pointer is guaranteed to remain valid
00:48:00 <kmc> it's part of the type
00:48:20 <kmc> usually inferred, but you can name them if you want, which means you can return these things as well as take them as arguments
00:49:03 <kmc> struct Foo { x: int } fn f<'t>(foo: &'t Foo) -> &'t int { &foo.x }
00:49:16 <kmc> takes a pointer to a Foo, returns a pointer to the int inside, which is valid as long as the original pointer was
00:49:46 <Bike> i think i'm with you re: not knowing how the hell they work
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00:50:39 <kmc> and since they're like type parameters you can also parametrize data over them, e.g. to make a vector iterator which is parametrized over how long the original vector lives
00:52:34 <myname> sounds pretty serious for an esolang, though
00:53:03 <kmc> in Rust they also track mutability; if you have a borrowed pointer of the immutable sort, you know that nobody else can mutate the object while you're using it through that pointer
00:53:33 <kmc> the aliasing rules are strict enough to guarantee that
00:54:13 <kmc> and so if you borrow a mutable thing as immutable, the compiler will "freeze" it for the duration of the borrow, which is a static typechecker thing except for garbage-collected stuff, which needs to be frozen dynamically
00:54:54 <kmc> myname: well it might be an esolang or it might just be a toy language for my understanding
00:55:02 <kmc> depending on whether it can be made interestingly perverse
00:55:13 <pikhq> Region-C or Region-fuck.
00:55:18 <kmc> for example what if the only data you have is region pointers, and you need to do basic arithmetic using regions somehow
00:55:28 <kmc> I don't know enough about it to say whether that is a coherent idea
00:55:33 <myname> kmc: how do you distinguish between eso and toy?
00:56:02 <kmc> esolangs are designed to be interestingly weird and difficult to use
00:56:28 <kmc> I don't consider Brainfuck to be a "true esolang" because although it's very minimal, and hard to use for that reason, the concepts it uses are straightforward and familiar
00:56:41 <kmc> and it was designed not to be difficult but to have a very simple compiler
00:57:08 <elliott> that definition of esolang is way too restrictive IMO
00:57:10 <Bike> J isn't supposed to be difficult to use.
00:57:39 <Bike> I wonder if APL counts as weird in context. I mean, A Programming Language didn't have a whole lot of competition.
00:57:47 <pikhq> Not to mention, Brainfuck is fairly easy to target.
00:58:45 <Bike> Maybe I should write an article on the wiki on Chaitin's "lisp-with-apl-character-set" bullshit and that can be my first article.
00:59:11 <Bike> I guess the whole compiling to diophantine equations thing is pretty esoteric.
01:01:12 <myname> why should anybody wants to ADD apl character set to something?
01:01:32 <Bike> It's not added. There aren't alphanumeric characters. Or multi-character identifiers.
01:01:40 <Bike> (hope this helps)
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01:02:27 <Sgeo_> I should rewatch the ending of season two of ATLA
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01:16:11 <kmc> whats that
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01:59:48 <myname> that right one looks like he got a boner
01:59:57 <myndzi> he's raising his dongers
02:00:39 <myndzi> lots of people on efnet used to hate on me because they thought i was you btw. just sayin :)
02:01:09 <myname> must be one of the nets with another myname
02:01:09 <myndzi> ah, must be a different person with the same nick then
02:01:28 <myname> i am surprised i got it here tbh
02:01:40 <myndzi> the other myname was a script kiddie, at least at one point
02:02:34 <Phantom_Hoover> hackego has been kicked for now, but you know the one i mean
02:02:34 <myndzi> myname: either way, this is gonna get confusing, hahaha
02:02:45 <myndzi> i don't know what was bound to `?
02:03:42 <myndzi> er, you mean the whole script? or just that smiley
02:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> because it triggers whenever hackego turns up a blank in the wisdom db, and triples the line count
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02:20:54 <myndzi> that sounds like a hackego problem to me :P i can block that line or something if you like
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02:23:13 <myndzi> i don't know what hackego is supposed to do in most cases :P
02:24:13 <myndzi> you can make any line ignored by leading it with ^k69^o
02:25:30 <myndzi> actually, anywhere in the line now. should be simple enough to tack on the end or something for specific cases
02:26:36 <kmc> isn't the typical solution to block HackEgo from your bot
02:26:53 <myndzi> i would, but people store things in it that are intended to trigger my thing too
02:27:09 <myndzi> the ignore thing was already there, i use it for other stuff
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02:30:06 <myndzi> well my solutions are: ignore hackego entirely (undesirable), disable that specific smiley (undesirable), write code to ignore that specific line (undesirable), disable entirely (undesirable)
02:30:26 <myndzi> compared with essentially saying 'i explicitly don't want this particular smiley to trigger the thing'
02:30:47 <Gregor> The first is desirable.
02:31:00 <Gregor> And if anybody WANTS your bot to respond to HackEgo, it is THEY who are undesirable.
02:31:09 <myndzi> i was thinking about things like `celebrate
02:31:32 <Gregor> I stand by my previous statement.
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02:59:02 * kmc fights the urge to pick fights with Haskell zealots on Twitter, which is still more sensible than copumpkin picking fights with libertarians
02:59:38 * copumpkin doesn't really get kmc's anti-haskell-community revelation
03:00:00 <copumpkin> there are zealots but just avoid them and take all the good, smart people who spend all their time learning about cool new stuff
03:00:14 <kmc> well I found it very hard to avoid them in #haskell
03:00:33 <kmc> maybe there are other outposts of "Haskell community" which are better
03:01:03 <kmc> I realize it's actually #haskell-edwardk
03:01:05 <copumpkin> but has ended up being just a friendly place to talk about cool stuff
03:01:09 <kmc> I did join a while back
03:01:15 <kmc> but left when my client restarted or something ;P
03:01:21 <copumpkin> he hasn't been around much recently
03:01:35 <kmc> my specific complaint lately is "Rust doesn't have higher-order polymorphism? well it must be shit and I will repeat that opinion forever without bothering to learn anything else about it"
03:01:42 <kmc> I dunno if I would get that attitude in -lens or not
03:01:58 <copumpkin> I doubt it, but shachaf is around more than I am
03:02:09 <kmc> not that I don't want higher-order polymorphism in Rust...
03:02:34 <copumpkin> most of the haskellers I respect have stated that they find rust interesting and would probably use it for systems code
03:02:42 <copumpkin> the others haven't said anything much about it :P
03:03:06 <copumpkin> keep in mind that there's about 1 person in that group, and that's me
03:03:29 <kmc> it would be cool if some of the many Haskell libraries that include C code could switch to Rust
03:03:44 <copumpkin> we'd just need some support in cabal for building rust code
03:03:44 <kmc> and it would be cool to have a high level FFI between the languages, e.g. something which preserves algebraic types and memory management
03:04:06 <kmc> it's something I'd vaguely like to work on, but I'm probably too lazy to do anything more than a proof of concept
03:04:11 <Bike> how many high level FFIs even exist?
03:04:12 <kmc> rustc is such a moving target too
03:04:20 <copumpkin> do they have a fixed calling convention?
03:04:22 <kmc> it may not be worth Cabal trying to sync up with it at present
03:04:28 <kmc> we're only just getting rustpkg off the ground
03:04:52 <kmc> I don't know how fixed the Rust calling convention is, but you can also call in and out of Rust with the C calling convention
03:05:14 <kmc> and Rust structs are defined to be C compatible
03:05:20 <Bike> so in unrelated news, i just learned a proper use of subgraph isomorphis. gotta get cracking on that eodermdrome interpreter now.
03:05:32 <kmc> so there's no need for C glue or "find the offset of everything" preprocessors a la hsc2hs
03:05:46 <kmc> no I'm working on Servo, which is the ~only big project in Rust besides rustc itself
03:06:34 <Bike> "or put another way, there are already eodermdrome interpreters running in the chemistry department"
03:06:45 <kmc> so which application is this?
03:07:22 <kmc> Bike: well RPC mechanisms which allow nested key-value structures as values are pretty common
03:07:23 <Bike> big molecules are, unsurprisingly, represented as graphs. chemists sometimes want to search for submolecules.
03:07:27 <kmc> you could consider that a high level FFI
03:07:59 <Bike> wikipedia says it's a "common misconception" that it just does regex search on a linearized form, though. i shudder for chemoinformaticians
03:11:57 <kmc> copumpkin: writing rustc in Rust is kind of questionable... on the other hand, writing the Rust runtime system in Rust is fucking awesome
03:12:32 <kmc> a new web layout / rendering engine with an emphasis on parallelism
03:12:41 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/servo
03:14:41 <kmc> also an emphasis on security through memory safety, eventually, but it's kind of a joke to claim that at the moment
03:14:55 <kmc> since we use C libraries for a bunch of stuff, and lots of unsafe Rust code for various other reasons
03:15:34 <copumpkin> what part of servo do you work on?
03:15:53 <kmc> whatever needs doing; it's a small team
03:16:26 <kmc> actually most of the commits to date are from Rust people; having a separate team for Servo is a new thing
03:16:29 <copumpkin> so do you have a full html parser in rust?
03:16:30 <kmc> of course we still work together closely
03:16:38 <kmc> no, that's one of the things we're using a C library for at present
03:17:08 <kmc> HTML / CSS parsing, image decoding, JavaScript are all in C
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03:17:28 <kmc> we would like for it to all be Rust but the priority varies by component
03:17:46 <kmc> for example we'd like to replace the CSS parser soon because it performs poorly (or rather, the CSS selector matching part of the library does)
03:18:03 <kmc> and we'd like to replace image decoding soonish for security + robustness
03:18:20 <kmc> (if an image decode fails within Rust code, we can easily catch that with the usual Rust task failure mechanisms and recover)
03:18:21 <elliott> what HTML parser do you use?
03:18:39 <elliott> I started working on Haskell bindings to hubbub years ago. I forget why. I gave up.
03:18:49 <kmc> it's doubtful that we will ever replace SpiderMonkey with a production quality JavaScript engine in Rust
03:19:15 <kmc> cause that's an incredible amount of work, plus the security benefits are murkier
03:21:21 <kmc> we need to do something about the fact that new versions of SpiderMonkey have only a C++ API and not a C API :(
03:23:36 <kmc> Rust more than most languages could support a "first-class" C++ FFI, but it would still be a huge pain
03:24:15 <Fiora> what makes an FFI "first-class"?
03:25:15 <kmc> well in this case I mean that we can map many C++ features to directly analogous Rust features, while most languages can't because they don't have any analogous feature
03:26:01 <kmc> like if your C++ API uses RAII then it's hard to map it directly to most languages, but plausible that we could do this for Rust
03:26:13 <Fiora> does the C++ spidermonkey API use C++y features?
03:26:24 <kmc> I'm told it does use RAII at least; I haven't looked into it
03:26:29 <Sgeo_> RAII is running code when a variable goes out of scope?
03:26:39 <kmc> but it sounds like our job would be harder than just "auto-generate an extern "C" for each of these prototypes"
03:26:58 <Sgeo_> Erm, hmm, guess not
03:27:11 <Fiora> does it use exceptions? like. what happens if initialization fails
03:27:19 <kmc> Sgeo_: the RAII idea is implemented by running code when an object is destroyed (which could happen by a variable going out of scope, yes)
03:27:22 <Sgeo_> All I'm thinking is that in Tcl, you can have code run when a variable is unset, which includes if it goes out of scope
03:28:21 <kmc> Sgeo_: the core idea is that having some object represents that you've acquired some resource (e.g. opened a file or taken a lock)
03:28:47 <kmc> Mutex m; { Lock l = m.lock(); ... }
03:29:03 <kmc> you don't need to call any unlock() method because it will happen automatically when you leave that scope, even if you leave due to an exception
03:29:27 <kmc> (or by invoking 'return' deep inside some branching control flow)
03:29:53 <kmc> so in this instance it's similar to Python's 'with' statement and other stuff in a lot of languages
03:30:29 <kmc> but it's more general because the object representing the acquired resource doesn't *have to* live on the stack with lifetime synced to a single function call
03:30:48 <kmc> you can put that Lock in a heap allocated object
03:31:00 <Sgeo_> Should be doable in Tcl I think. And Tcl doesn't have automatic GC, although with most OO systems for Tcl including TclOO, you can specify destructors
03:31:16 <kmc> or if you want to refcount the retention of the lock, put it in a std::shared_ptr
03:31:20 <Sgeo_> Actually, by 'most' I mean, I'm only certain about TclOO
03:31:28 <kmc> how does Tcl free storage if not GC?
03:31:40 <pikhq> Reference counting.
03:31:44 <Sgeo_> Well, strings are GCed, sorry about that
03:31:49 <Sgeo_> Or, well, reference counted.
03:31:55 <pikhq> Tcl's native value type, being strings, cannot be circularly referenced.
03:31:58 <Sgeo_> But anything mutable (variables, namespaces) aren't GCed
03:32:44 <Sgeo_> Oh, and strings are immutable
03:33:17 <kmc> yeah, it might be possible to map RAII nicely into refcounted systems with destructors
03:33:22 <kmc> I haven't thought about it
03:34:05 <Bike> a lot of gc'd systems provide some kind of hook to call when something is destroyed
03:34:16 <Bike> kind of a bad idea to use it for raii, though
03:34:18 <kmc> yeah but if it's true GC, that doesn't happen at any particular time
03:34:36 <Bike> plus it might just not happen at all sooooo
03:35:01 <Sgeo_> "Note that destructors are not called in all situations (e.g. if the interpreter is destroyed)"
03:35:56 <Sgeo_> I should note that in Tcl, 'interpreter' is not synonymous with 'running program'
03:36:05 <Sgeo_> So it's not as lolzy as it sounds
03:36:11 <Bike> is it still something sigkillable
03:36:27 <Sgeo_> A Tcl program can invoke sub-interpreters
03:36:54 <Sgeo_> I think that's how Tcl does threads
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03:57:19 <zzo38> I am curious to know, how many Wiccans hate daylight saving time compared to Roman Catholics?
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04:03:38 <Bike> i want to frame you
04:06:37 <Bike> wrong sense of "frame"
04:07:30 <zzo38> It doesn't matter what sense, it doesn't answer, what?
04:07:56 <Bike> in this sense "for" is meaningless.
04:08:20 <zzo38> Well, why do you want to?
04:08:38 <Bike> because that's a great question.
04:10:49 <zzo38> But yours isn't a very good question.
04:39:23 <zzo38> Numerology stuff is as silly as, if you had a computer program that calculates the MD5 hash of the current date/time and treats it as a machine code address and jumps to it. Isn't it?
04:40:39 <zzo38> (Maybe this comparison can even be used to make a idea to make a esolang)
04:44:47 <zzo38> Do you have a better kind of comparison (if there is one)?
04:45:52 <Bike> i don't need a comparison because one time i saw a book about how santa was satan and was going to end the world, and it wasn't a joke
04:46:46 <zzo38> Yes some people do stupid things like that
04:53:42 <zzo38> It is certainly stupid but it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with numerology.
04:55:52 <Bike> Oh it was all based on numerology. s+a+n+t+a added up to 666 or whatever.
04:56:32 <zzo38> Well, of course anagrams do too, then.
04:57:18 <zzo38> (Although, so can things other than anagrams. Anagrams are one class of words that do.)
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05:03:04 <zzo38> These and other divinations can be described by two things: artificial correspondences, and the improper use of these correspondences.
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05:56:17 <Sgeo_> "Be careful with this message. Similar messages were used to steal people's personal information. Unless you trust the sender, don't click links or reply with personal information. "
05:56:27 <Sgeo_> But I trust FedEx *sends personal info*
05:56:35 <Sgeo_> Maybe that message should be reworded?
05:59:03 <olsner> or maybe you shouldn't have sent them personal info :)
05:59:16 <olsner> mostly that would depend on whether it really was fedex or not
06:02:21 <zzo38> If you need the service from FedEx, then ignore the message and send it to FedEx using the telephone book or whatever instead of that message perhaps.
06:02:47 <zzo38> If you do not need the service from FedEx, then ignore the message and don't send your personal info.
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06:39:59 <zzo38> Why do I sometimes get error about IRQ not less or equal?
06:40:12 <zzo38> What does sdIv:;aL{l*h?[?Q4-xiYf9QSi3U&7edDCVZ3z<t mean?
06:42:13 <zzo38> Well, I will sleep now anyways.
06:42:34 <olsner> the IRQ less or equal error is a symptom of bad RAM, usually (it would be interesting to learn why it causes some assert about an IRQ to fail though)
06:42:46 <zzo38> While I am writing now (after the crash), all these four lines starting with "W"; do you know that?
06:43:08 <zzo38> olsner: I used the RAM test program and it says the RAM is OK.
06:44:01 <olsner> hmm, I'm out of prepackaged answers then... maybe it's just a bug of some kind
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07:03:19 <fizzie> @tell Buggy drivers, sometimes. The "official" answer is at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms854226.aspx
07:04:36 <fizzie> olsner: See above; IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL is the (very self-explanatory, I'm sure) error message you get on generic memory access violations in kernel mode, more or less.
07:06:39 <fizzie> (The number it's checking is not exactly an "IRQ" number but a sort of a privilege level: http://mikemstech.blogspot.se/2011/11/how-to-troubleshoot-blue-screen-0xa.html lists them.)
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10:53:35 <Koen> do we have a language where the only data structure is an unbounded integer accumulator? but with sufficiently arithmetic operations to make it turing-complete
10:56:22 <Koen> though I guess if you give it too many arithmetic instructions it becomes too easy, as you can make a simple stack of "digits" in base B with push x ::= (acc = acc * B + x), drop = (acc = acc / B) and pop = (acc % B)
10:57:42 <Koen> not sure how to make a deque though; in order to access the top digit you need a way to store (or compute) the number of digits
11:07:06 <lifthrasiir> Koen: a "single" unbounded integer accumulator?
11:07:31 <lifthrasiir> if you meant two or more (but the fixed number of) accumulators, there it is: http://esolangs.org/wiki/NULL
11:07:41 <Taneb> Koen, Fractran's pretty close
11:08:04 <Koen> lifthrasiir: well if you got two that's close to a minsky machine right?
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11:33:33 <oerjan> what do you mean i never hug real people.
11:39:54 <oerjan> @tell myndzi fortunately ^celebrate is on fungot, not HackEgo
11:39:55 <fungot> oerjan: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
11:41:27 <oerjan> fungot: what can you say about sword stopping
11:41:27 <fungot> oerjan: but cyrus! are you leaving! ayla like crono! what should we do?! robo, don't waste your time. alfador only likes you, crono!
11:41:44 <oerjan> fungot: that doesn't seem very relevant to swords.
11:41:44 <fungot> oerjan: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
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11:42:56 <fizzie> fungot: You're all about tricycles.
11:42:56 <fungot> fizzie: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
11:43:09 <fizzie> This thing is really repetitive.
11:43:27 <fizzie> I had a good idea for a fungot dataset except it was something in Finnish.
11:43:27 <fungot> fizzie: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... this must be the invention. hope it still leaves you hungry! here you are the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos.
11:43:43 <oerjan> istr someone suggested finnish already.
11:43:45 <Taneb> oerjan, I hope your back pain lessens
11:43:57 <oerjan> Taneb: well i just took some pain killers.
11:43:59 <fizzie> Yes, but it was some specific Finnish thing. I forget what it was exactly.
11:45:03 <fizzie> I think it was something from the Institute.
11:45:24 <oerjan> then fungot could be all highbrow and only the finns would understand it.
11:45:24 <fungot> oerjan: the masamune!? noooo!!! ha!
11:45:35 <fizzie> (The "Institute for the Languages of Finland"; we're helping them with some audio things.)
11:45:43 <fizzie> fungot: There, that's a sword.
11:45:44 <fungot> fizzie: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! we must do it to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!!
11:46:57 <oerjan> fungot: what about trying excalibur instead.
11:46:58 <fungot> oerjan: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
11:47:33 <fizzie> They have a 1456658-word corpus of Finnish classics from 1880s to 1930s, that would be a highbrow Finnish thing to do.
11:47:46 <fizzie> But I don't really think so, there's books enough in it already.
12:02:00 <oerjan> apparently there's still an official head of the tokugawa clan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Tsunenari
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12:56:19 <fizzie> Grumble frubmle Praat does not play audio.
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12:59:54 <boily> good it-happened morning!
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13:34:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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13:35:45 <boily> @tell Phantom_Hoover e2 to e4???
13:35:54 <boily> right. lambdabot is dead.
13:39:17 <boily> by the way, what happened to the topic?
13:40:07 <fizzie> It broke down under the load.
13:46:06 <boily> it was indeed getting pretty long and vetust.
13:47:04 <oerjan> boily: psst it's a pun on "pawn"
13:48:20 <boily> you and your non-rhotic English dialects...
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14:06:50 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> I am curious to know, how many Wiccans hate daylight saving time compared to Roman Catholics?
14:06:55 <HackEgo> 1108) <zzo38> I am curious to know, how many Wiccans hate daylight saving time compared to Roman Catholics?
14:07:02 <oerjan> someone requested a framing.
14:09:30 <boily> the quote is added, the PDF updated, the yerba mate dranked, but what has DST got to do with Wicca?
14:10:54 <oerjan> that is all part of the zzo38 mystery
14:11:00 <HackEgo> 367) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
14:11:26 <oerjan> hm did i actually put a double space when i said that?
14:11:28 -!- boily has set topic: Topic undergoing maintenance | PDF still available during construction work: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:11:43 <oerjan> `pastelogs I am at Canada
14:12:09 <boily> probably a manifestation of QILDSR.
14:12:20 <boily> (Quote Inter-Locutor Double-Spacing Reflex)
14:12:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24462
14:13:23 <oerjan> `run sed -i '367s/ </ </' quotes
14:13:33 <HackEgo> 367) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
14:13:57 <boily> spurrious mimic evolutionary double spacing, which means I probably misformated the quote...
14:17:02 <oerjan> <quintopia> anyone who sees that in the future will think it is two quotes
14:17:25 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> anyone who sees that in the future will think it is two quotes <-- WOW YOU WERE PSYCHIC
14:18:13 <oerjan> we may have a bot absense number constancy situation.
14:18:50 <boily> fungot: do you know where lambdie went?
14:18:50 <fungot> boily: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca
14:18:59 <oerjan> <oerjan> and then they will try to correct the spacing, and we must undo it
14:19:46 <boily> who do I complain to if I want lambdabot back?
14:20:21 <boily> elliott: ↑ LAMBDABOT! NOW! please :)
14:21:21 <oerjan> i must regretfully point out that elliott has been idle for 8 hours. although may mean he'll wake up about now.
14:22:23 <boily> @localtime elliott
14:23:56 <boily> elliott is in the UK, which uses DST, so he's on UTC+0100, which is 5 hours later than here, so it's around 3:22pm there.
14:25:23 <oerjan> you appear to be making the mistake of assuming sane sleeping schedules for #esoteric regulars.
14:26:04 <Roujo> boily: おはよう！ I managed to red that!|
14:26:12 <Roujo> Also, yes, it happened! =D
14:27:11 <boily> oerjan: well. I know for a fact that Taneb has sleep issues, and that my own schedule is sane, so with that population sample it's 50/50 either way with elliott.
14:27:53 <boily> Roujo: seems the Universe didn't collapse...
14:28:23 <Roujo> boily: Not so far, anyway. Which is good.
14:31:56 <oerjan> boily: hm this quote change happened at around the time i did a major formatting check on the quotes, so it quite possibly was my fault.
14:33:10 <boily> oerjan: the end result was inconsequential. I happen to have read the quote, and having that dangling verb there made no sense, so I figured it was a single quote.
14:33:26 <oerjan> indeed it was my fault.
14:33:29 <boily> otoh, I did have parsing trouble with the django shenanigans.
14:33:32 * oerjan swats himself -----###
14:33:39 <boily> oh... that's a first!
14:33:50 <oerjan> boily: that's incredibly intentional.
14:34:16 <boily> Roujo: infâme et odieux personnage que tu es! how dare you earworm me on a Monday Morning!
14:34:39 <Roujo> boily: There you go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puHyO5JNOE0
14:34:41 <boily> oerjan: it... happened before? fascinating.
14:34:52 <boily> Roujo: won't click.
14:35:00 <Roujo> It's a remix, really
14:35:07 <Roujo> Well, more of a mashup, I guess
14:35:08 <boily> (at least for the next hour. I'm einstein on the beaching my ears)
14:36:35 <oerjan> boily: i've been stupid before, you know.
14:37:23 <boily> `pastelogs swats himself
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14:37:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.600
14:39:17 <boily> `pastelogs swats herself
14:39:23 <oerjan> there's even a pre-lengthening one.
14:39:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19841
14:40:23 <boily> and, on top of that, only male self-swatting.
14:40:45 <Roujo> There's something to be said about that somewhere, but I can't figure out what
14:41:10 <oerjan> i think that can be explained by the fact we rarely have more than one active female in the channel.
14:41:26 <boily> “it's not the length of the swat that counts...”
14:43:47 <Taneb> boily, I have sleep issues?
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14:44:39 <oerjan> hm the updog must be defective.
14:44:45 <boily> Taneb: iircbpn, you talked about that stuff some months ago.
14:44:53 <boily> (iirc but probably not)
14:45:07 <metasepia> Software description: a command line tool for getting weather forecasts - written in Ruby (Ruby).
14:45:30 <oerjan> metasepia: you appear to be confusing updog with yourself
14:45:37 <boily> glad to know that Ruby needs to be explained by itself.
14:45:51 <oerjan> also, ruby with haskell.
14:46:01 <oerjan> updog: or do you actually do weather forecasts?
14:46:34 <Taneb> boily, I think I just have a tendency to nap
14:46:43 <Taneb> And I'm not good at lie-ins
14:46:47 <oerjan> elliott: wait does that mean you're awake now.
14:47:17 <boily> oerjan: this updog is connected from somewhere around Buffaly, NY.
14:48:27 <oerjan> boily: hm... i guess it isn't elliott, i don't think he'd bother with strange ip's.
14:49:05 <oerjan> who are the new yorkers in the channel that haven't relocated to san francisco.
14:49:45 <HackEgo> No one was ever called Elliot.
14:49:52 <Fiora> elliott is also aslep.
14:50:06 <oerjan> Fiora: well he might be waking up about now.
14:50:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: Waiting for elliott | PDF still available during construction work: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:50:59 <Taneb> If it helps I could cause a large explosion
14:51:38 <Roujo> `run echo "c.f. elliott" > wisdom/godot
14:51:51 <boily> as recorded in the File, people from the East Coast are: jsvine, ...
14:51:57 <boily> well. seems to be the only one.
14:52:04 <Roujo> `run echo "cf. elliott" > wisdom/godot
14:52:31 <boily> oerjan: so yeah. quintopia is the Most Probable Updogger.
14:52:56 <oerjan> always with the laughing matter that one
14:53:59 <oerjan> <Taneb> If it helps I could cause a large explosion <-- i'd like you to link afterward to the hexham newspaper where you explain why you did it.
14:54:38 <boily> Taneb: could you cause a pretty explosion, instead of a large one?
14:54:51 <oerjan> boily: but that might not wake up elliott!
14:55:28 <Roujo> Last I saw elliott, he made a mermaid out of me
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14:56:04 <boily> Roujo: what exactly happened yesterday? were you connected and active on the Chännel during a Weekend?
14:56:21 <Taneb> Roujo, I think that was me
14:56:23 <Roujo> boily: I'm always connected.
14:56:36 <Roujo> Taneb: Well, elliott turned me into a mermaid, you just made me realize it
14:57:13 <quintopia> boily: did you send things to gorham
14:57:50 <boily> quintopia: no, I was busy with either my SO, or visiting Lachine at night and doing unspeakable things with another Unnämed Channel Member.
14:58:09 <boily> quintopia: mind you, the cookies are bought, I just need to go to the post office.
14:58:47 <boily> I'm getting late... :(
14:58:51 <quintopia> you'll have to send to andover, me now
14:59:15 <boily> oerjan: can you lend me your swatter, so that I can undergo penience for my sins?
14:59:29 <Roujo> Lachine is best Chine
14:59:35 <boily> quintopia: oh well. can you send me your new coördinates?
14:59:54 <quintopia> oerjan: swat boily for too much diaeresis
14:59:57 <Roujo> >doing unspeakable things with another Unnämed Channel Member
15:00:06 <oerjan> <fizzie> @tell Buggy drivers, sometimes. The "official" answer is at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms854226.aspx <-- i don't think Buggy will understand that message.
15:00:34 <Roujo> boily: Don't start any rumors now >_>
15:00:59 <boily> Roujo: bin voyons dont. voir si je suis pour partir des rumeurs :D
15:01:40 * oerjan helpfullÿ swäts boily -----###
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15:03:35 <oerjan> hm it seems not to mean what i thought it meant.
15:06:02 <quintopia> boily: david rutter/general delivery/andover, me 04216
15:10:51 <oerjan> @tell Koen there's also the single-register machine described at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
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15:39:30 <Roujo> Wait, did I mess that up?
15:39:58 <Roujo> @tell oerjan lambdabot is back. hth
15:40:07 <metasepia> CYUL 231500Z 30010KT 15SM BKN031 11/04 A3004 RMK CU6 SLP175
15:40:07 <metasepia> EGNT 231520Z 11006KT 080V190 9999 FEW019 20/14 Q1022
15:41:53 <Taneb> Which one of those is the temperature
15:43:45 <Roujo> Why would you want the temperature?
15:44:27 <Taneb> I think it's 20/14
15:45:32 <Roujo> That would make sense, yeah
15:45:43 <Roujo> It *is* cold-ish out there
15:45:49 * Roujo gazes out the window
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16:10:50 <Koen> oerjan: yeah but that's not turing-complete is it
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16:56:19 <metasepia> EFHK 231650Z 02010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 10/08 Q1001 BECMG SCT014 BKN030
16:57:04 <fizzie> "BECMG" -- for people who can't afford vowels.
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17:17:38 <boily> back from lunch, and it's -SHRAing in Helsinki.
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17:27:12 <fizzie> boily: It's raining in Shanghai. (Disclaimer: it might not, this is a reference.)
17:27:27 <metasepia> ZSSS 231700Z 15004MPS 9999 FEW013 26/23 Q1011 NOSIG
17:27:39 <boily> fizzie: sadly not. this is not a reference. hth.
17:27:58 <metasepia> mps definition: meters per second.
17:28:15 <fizzie> Well, the local weather forecast says it will rain on Wednesday, that's close enough.
17:28:16 <boily> I'd much prefer for it to be Miles per Second. more dramatic, imho.
17:30:59 <boily> megaluns per second!
17:32:06 <Roujo> MegaParsecs/Second
17:32:09 <fizzie> `frink 4 miles/second -> km/hour
17:32:16 <HackEgo> 14484096/625 (exactly 23174.5536)
17:32:37 <fizzie> In related news, Frink's interpretation of "km/h" was kind of curious.
17:32:40 <fizzie> `frink 4 miles/second -> km/h
17:32:48 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 804672/125 (exactly 6437.376) m s^-1 (velocity) \ Right side is: 1.5091904506831453200e+36 m^-1 s kg^-1 (unknown unit type) \ Suggestion: divide left side by energy \ \ For help, type: units[energy] \ to list known units with these dimensions.
17:33:07 <kmc> kilometers per henry?
17:33:15 <boily> speaking of curious things, I had that Most Wonderful Cola during lunch.
17:33:23 <Roujo> boily: The dead one?
17:33:37 <boily> Roujo: I don't drink dead cola.
17:33:47 <fizzie> I guess that would match the henry, right.
17:33:48 <Roujo> So you drink alive cola, then?
17:33:52 <boily> `frink 4 megaparsec/second -> km/hour
17:33:59 <boily> Roujo: of course. only the freshest.
17:34:19 <HackEgo> 14484096/625 (exactly 23174.5536)
17:34:34 <fizzie> `frink 4 mi/s -> km/hr
17:34:42 <HackEgo> 14484096/625 (exactly 23174.5536)
17:34:48 <Roujo> `frink 5 megalightyear/milisecond -> km/hr
17:34:49 <boily> are you golfing unit converstion? you freaks.
17:34:57 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "milisecond". \ Warning: undefined symbol "milisecond". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 47303652362904000000000 m (length) milisecond (undefined symbol)^-1 -> 5/18 (approx. 0.2777777777777778) m s^-1 (velocity)
17:35:03 <Roujo> `frink 5 megalightyear/millisecond -> km/hr
17:35:12 <HackEgo> 170293148506454400000000000
17:35:26 <Roujo> Somehow that sounds wrong
17:36:03 <Gregor> `frink 1 lightyear/year -> km/hr
17:36:29 <Gregor> Why did it use scientific notation for this but not for that >_>
17:36:57 <Roujo> `frink 4 mi/s -> km/h
17:37:05 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 804672/125 (exactly 6437.376) m s^-1 (velocity) \ Right side is: 1.5091904506831453200e+36 m^-1 s kg^-1 (unknown unit type) \ Suggestion: divide left side by energy \ \ For help, type: units[energy] \ to list known units with these dimensions.
17:37:11 <boily> Gregor: because 170293148506454400000000000 is the Not Quite Exactly Number of the Beast.
17:37:14 <Roujo> `frink 4 m/s -> km/hr
17:37:16 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/frink: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `exactly' \ /hackenv/bin/frink: line 1: `14484096/625 (exactly 23174.5536)'
17:38:11 <Roujo> `frink 4 mi/s -> km/hr
17:38:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec /hackenv/lib/frink -e "$@"
17:38:19 <HackEgo> 14484096/625 (exactly 23174.5536)
17:38:47 <elliott> the "dummy programs with Unicode in the name" thing is getting really old.
17:39:01 <kmc> its all unicode :<
17:39:22 <Roujo> ... This is only the second time I've done it, elliott >_<
17:41:09 <boily> Roujo: you need to find something more... obscure. something that will slip past behind the Ever Examinating Elliott Eyes.
17:41:34 <Roujo> I guess don't really have anything on-topic to do here, anyway, so I can see how that could be annoying
17:41:40 <Roujo> Anyway, have a nice day
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17:42:20 <kmc> `run echo 'echo hi' > bin/`printf '\xcc\x8a'` && chmod +x bin/`printf '\xcc\x8a'`
17:47:24 <fizzie> The insta-angel character.
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18:04:08 <boily> come on, connect, you damn bot...
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18:06:11 <Vorpal> Does anyone know if there is a command line tool to mess with mount namespaces under Linux?
18:06:29 <boily> what do you mean about a mount namespace?
18:07:01 <olsner> I don't mess with that stuff but I think I've stumbled upon the tool
18:07:07 <Vorpal> You know that different programs can have different set of visible mount points right? Used for stuff like virtualization, but Android also uses it for security
18:07:20 <Vorpal> olsner, happen to remember the name?
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18:07:51 <metasepia> ZUUU 231800Z 00000MPS 4000 BR NSC 21/19 Q1013 NOSIG
18:08:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: "unshare" is one tool that's slightly relevant.
18:08:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm basically lookint to set up a unionfs on / (and other partitions as required) to do a checkinstall/fakeroot on stereoids
18:09:06 <boily> Vorpal: something with mount --make-{share,slave,private}?
18:09:36 <fizzie> "unshare" runs a program with mount (or other) namespace privatized, so that whatever changes you do won't affect the parent.
18:10:05 <Vorpal> boily, err what? Looking at it it looks potentially different, but I have no clue what that stuff is
18:10:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, that looks like it could work
18:10:32 <boily> Vorpal: result from a quick google search. I have no idea what it implies, but there's documentation on IBM.com and C code with PAM.
18:11:12 <Vorpal> checking the man page I'm confused
18:11:17 <fizzie> The share/slave/private thing is fancy, but indeed slightly different. I've forgotten exactly how it worked, but it was relevant to what's visible from where through what bind mounts.
18:11:53 <Bike> "Apparently their firewall is blocking access to certain file types." the dav saga continues
18:12:42 <fizzie> It's a kind of a thing where you can mount a tree in such a way that if you mount it with "shared" in one place, and as "slave" in others, then mount something else inside the master location, the slaves will see those same mounts.
18:13:02 <fizzie> Normally you'd of course need to e.g. explicitly bind all new mounts you make inside the master.
18:13:09 <fizzie> I seem to recall that Maemo uses that feature.
18:13:17 <fizzie> Or Meego, or some other thing in that family.
18:13:33 <fizzie> Or some mobile thing anyway. :p
18:14:45 <boily> ah, the Maegozen mess...
18:15:28 <fizzie> I guess it's sort of related to mount namespaces in that there you could easily have a need for shared mounts in addition to private ones.
18:16:06 <fizzie> There's some sort of a thing where you have per-login namespaces, and whan e.g. a user's sshfs mounts be visible in all sessions of that user.
18:16:17 <fizzie> (Man, modern things are so complicated.)
18:16:51 <Vorpal> sshfs on my system is visible across the board from what I can see
18:17:07 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think per-login namespaces are exactly commonplace.
18:17:08 <Vorpal> Not usable by others unless you pass -o allow_root or some such flag
18:17:10 <boily> can you chain sshfses across multiple machines?
18:17:18 <kmc> when you sshfs mount something with default options then root "can't" access it, which is strange
18:17:35 <Vorpal> kmc, I know, which annoyed me a lot when doing rdiff-backup on my phone
18:17:41 <kmc> boily: you mean sshfs mount a remote filesystem which has sshfs mounts? yes of course
18:17:44 <kmc> I've done it
18:18:01 <Vorpal> Going to be slow though
18:18:06 <kmc> not necessarily
18:18:26 <kmc> my favorite thing about Linux namespaces is the number of security holes created by allowing unprivileged users to create them
18:18:39 <Vorpal> kmc, unprivileged users can create them? heh
18:18:48 <Vorpal> yeah that could cause loads of issues
18:18:56 <boily> kmc: I mean having an sshfs mount that tunnels through one or more machines to get to a distant one.
18:19:00 <kmc> well it's a newish feature, don't know when it's enabled
18:19:07 <Vorpal> I heard android 4.3 uses SElinux as well.
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18:19:23 <olsner> that whole namespace stuff sounds like something that should increase security, not create more holes
18:19:34 <kmc> olsner: sure if it has no bugs
18:19:45 <kmc> but it's a ton of new code which breaks a bunch of longstanding assumptions
18:20:06 <kmc> http://lwn.net/Articles/543273/ hey this looks like a cool article
18:20:07 <Vorpal> They should have unit tests and such... Hm, are there automated testing suits of any kind of the kernel?
18:20:21 <kmc> lol you can't find security holes that way Vorpal
18:20:31 <kmc> they should have automated tests just to prevent security *regressions*, which do happen
18:20:31 <boily> testing is for wimps. failures should be spectacular!
18:20:32 <Vorpal> true, but you can find bugs
18:20:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, the clone thing from last night worked on the first try, after gdisk expert-mode fixing the disk-size and backup header fields. (Also bumped the Windows Experience Index score up by two points or something.)
18:20:35 <kmc> but it's nothing near a solution
18:21:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice, my desktop scores like 7.5-7.9 on everything but the disk, which caps the whole thing to 5.4 or some such
18:22:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, funnily it is my SSD in my work laptop that caps it's score too to 6.8 or some such. That is an Intel 520 SSD
18:22:38 <Vorpal> Other than that it scores like 7.1-7.3 iirc
18:22:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Same here. I think I have 7.9 from all other categories (though it goes to 9.9 these days), except the disk was 5.x; now it's 7.1. (It's not the fastest possible SSD.)
18:23:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, 9.9 is Windows 8 I presume?
18:23:45 <fizzie> Yes, it's an 8 install.
18:24:03 <fizzie> Wonder if 8.1 is going to bump those up even more.
18:24:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, how terrible is it?
18:24:31 <fizzie> I keep starting Chrome every now and then because it's at the left edge of the quick launch bar where a start window would be. :p
18:24:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, apart from that? Do you hate it?
18:25:22 <fizzie> Well, honestly I don't really use it all that much. Certainly it works okay for basically running Steam.
18:25:46 <fizzie> I've installed Emacs on it and whatnot, but I'm not entirely clear why I bothered.
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18:26:53 <Vorpal> I presume it is a Linux distro?
18:27:03 <Vorpal> Anyway, when did they announce that?
18:27:14 <fizzie> Windows 8.1 is going to add a start menu and a straight-to-Desktop boot option, which I guess will make the UI more "usual". I'm not a real fan of the start screen.
18:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think they've said but it's the only viable candidate
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18:27:25 <Bike> «Imagine that, Valve decided that the "environment best suited" to Steam is one it owns and controls fully»
18:28:48 <metasepia> valve definition: '''archaic''' a leaf of a folding or double door.
18:29:02 <fizzie> "Hundreds of great games are already running natively on SteamOS. Watch for announcements in the coming weeks about all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014."
18:29:11 <Bike> "SteamOS combines the rock-solid architecture of Linux with a gaming experience built for the big screen." i guess that's straightforward
18:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, that, er, seems a bit hyperbolic what with the linux part
18:29:16 <elliott> fizzie: 8.1's start menu isn't actually a menu.
18:29:20 <elliott> fizzie: it just brings up the start screen.
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18:29:36 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: eh android's pretty controlled
18:29:44 <Vorpal> Bike, how locked down will it be though?
18:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, yeah but is it really 'owned and controlled fully' by google (i don't know how android works)
18:30:19 <elliott> fizzie: personally I used http://www.startisback.com/ to make Windows 8 like bad old Windows when playing around with it in a VM. YMMV on whether you can bring yourself to pay for a start menu.
18:30:33 <fizzie> elliott: Oh? Well, I guess that's okay too. I can just think the screen is a big menu.
18:31:07 <Bike> The living-room is family territory. That’s great, but you don’t want to see your parents’ games in your library. Soon, families will have more control over what titles get seen by whom, and more features to allow everyone in the house to get the most out of their Steam libraries.
18:31:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Android is kind of controlled, kind of open. The source is open, the play store, is not. Nor is the development towards the next release until it is released.
18:32:05 <fizzie> "You can play all your Windows and Mac games on your SteamOS machine, too. Just turn on your existing computer and run Steam as you always have - then your SteamOS machine can stream those games over your home network straight to your TV!"
18:32:12 <fizzie> That streaming stuff seems really popular these days.
18:32:20 <fizzie> Doesn't Nvidia keep doing that kind of thing too?
18:32:53 <fizzie> Yes, but I mean locally-inside-the-house kind of stuff this time.
18:33:02 <Vorpal> I doubt there are many games on mac that are not on windows. I know of a couple, and they are really really old.
18:33:25 <fizzie> Shield streams games from a PC too, AIUI.
18:34:15 <fizzie> And I guess they have the GRID project.
18:34:34 <fizzie> Nvidia's own Onlive-style thing, I think.
18:35:03 <kmc> Bike: porn games right
18:35:10 <kmc> that must be it
18:35:15 <Bike> u know it bro B)
18:35:31 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure if they were going to run the service too or what; at least it's a family of hardware for running a "cloud gaming" service.
18:36:35 <Fiora> I thought the idea was that steam was going to stream from a PC in your house
18:36:38 <fizzie> "When service operators use NVIDIA GRID as the foundation for their on-demand Gaming as a Service (GaaS) solution --"
18:36:49 <Bike> gonna play me some leisure suit larry on the biiiiig screen
18:37:01 <fizzie> Bike: With the biiiiig pixels.
18:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, yes, that's what fizzie was initially talking about
18:37:10 <Bike> foo as a service is pretty great
18:45:28 <fizzie> The background on the SteamOS page -- http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/ -- looks kind of like the Land of Wind and Shade. (I'm about 3000 pages behind in Homestuck, incidentally.)
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18:59:21 <Fiora> thanks for completing my regex -_-
18:59:31 <Bike> you need the trailing slash for sed, man!
19:00:09 <Bike> also imo it's not very hilly since it's in magispace
19:02:40 <Fiora> the magic of paradox space!
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19:09:30 <ais523> someone just posted on a.l.i asking for a MarioLANG impl
19:09:44 <ais523> (mentioning it here, because I imagine most of you don't read a.l.i)
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19:19:39 <fizzie> "How much are they paying?"
19:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, oh, you were up to the doc scratch intermission?
19:22:28 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I think I was up to something like that, yes.
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19:49:54 <Jafet> gcc has become impressively good at emitting calls to optimized functions that don't exist
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20:16:01 <metasepia> Your divination: "Great Possessing" to "Sojourning"
20:21:06 <metasepia> Your divination: "Small Exceeding" to "Sojourning"
20:24:05 <metasepia> Your divination: "Grouping" to "Returning"
20:24:15 <boily> ah. I was worried it was stuck on sojourning.
20:25:19 <metasepia> Your divination: "Returning" to "Gnawing Bite"
20:25:40 <nooodl> boily: what are these from
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20:26:39 <olsner> is I also written ~yi or something?
20:26:46 <Koen> I Ching... is that the weird two-player game where you've got to draw a path with othello-like tiles?
20:27:08 <kmc> imagine my confusion when I looked up in the sky to see a bunch of tiny clouds spelling out the word "CLOUD" in big letters
20:27:10 <boily> olsner: depends on the romanisation.
20:27:27 <kmc> (skywriter advertising)
20:27:35 <boily> kmc is stalked by fractal clouds.
20:27:41 <Bike> that sounds very pkd
20:27:47 <boily> Koen: never heard of that.
20:28:09 <kmc> my usual tagline is "stupid cyberpunk future" but this is less cyberpunk and more like Hofstadter and PKD dropped acid together
20:28:43 <boily> Koen: there's this game played with a go board and stones, where both players use black stone at first, then one of them decides during the game to play white.
20:29:13 <kmc> everything in this city is trying to sell me clouds of various shapes
20:29:34 <boily> olsner: apparently, my divination relates to having freedom transformed into vacations or something.
20:29:43 <boily> I think I'm due for a quick trip abroad...
20:31:23 <Koen> boily: do you mean go with the pie-rule?
20:31:30 <Koen> never seen anyone play that
20:32:14 <boily> no, the goal is to make a line that connects 2 or 3 sides first. can't remember the details; I'm trying to find the game again.
20:37:22 <boily> I think it's that, but I'm vraiment pas sûr: http://www.di.fc.ul.pt/~jpn/gv/gonnect.htm
20:37:57 <Koen> RULES - The rules of GO apply, except:
20:37:58 <Koen> Players may not pass;
20:37:58 <Koen> The PIE rule: White may choose as his 1st move to exchange places with Black.
20:38:12 <boily> that's why I'm not sure it's that.
20:38:34 <Koen> though I didn't quote the remainder of the page where they explain you have to connect 2 or 3 sides
20:38:53 <boily> I *know* there's a game where you have to connect three sides.
20:42:13 <Koen> hmmm interesting
20:42:41 <Koen> the article says player often reach a dead-end because of mutually separated groups
20:43:04 <Koen> so the game keeps going until someone runs out of moves and has to commit suicide
20:43:16 <Koen> so that's basically go
20:43:47 <boily> my favourite go move is the nuclear tesuji :D
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20:46:48 <boily> but then, nothing compares to a Swedish fuseki.
20:55:38 <Bike> `frink 125 J -> L*atm
20:55:51 <HackEgo> 5000/4053 (approx. 1.233654083395016)
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21:10:29 <Koen> I'll look into it
21:10:43 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> anyone who sees that in the future will think it is two quotes <-- WOW YOU WERE PSYCHIC
21:11:32 <oerjan> Koen: in fact, that machine being TC is a step on the road to showing that an ordinary minsky machine with 2 register is TC.
21:13:55 <oerjan> Koen: also, fractran is basically a version of it with much simplified flow control.
21:16:21 <oerjan> because fractran has no persistent machine state in addition to the unbounded single register.
21:16:59 <oerjan> (you need temporary state to know where you are in the list of fractions, though.)
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21:26:23 * boily applies percussive maintenance on ais523 --------#̈#̈#̈
21:26:53 <ais523> oerjan: it's my standard rule that whenever I accidentally spam a lot of keys due to leaning on the keyboard in #esoteric, I send rather than delete
21:27:01 <ais523> I noticed I'd been leaning on the "2" key, so…
21:27:15 <oerjan> i seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
21:28:21 <boily> I like how a simple “plot twist” becomes «revirement de situation». sometimes, English is much more efficient...
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21:29:40 <kmc> psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est
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21:30:01 <boily> run run, run awaaaaaaaaayyyyyy ♪
21:30:17 <boily> ~duck psycho killer
21:30:18 <metasepia> "Psycho Killer" is a song written by David Byrne, Chris Frantz and Tina Weymouth and first played by their band The Artistic in 1974, and as new wave band Talking Heads in 1975, with a later version recorded for their 1977 album Talking Heads: 77.
21:30:31 <Bike> ba ba ba ba, ba ba ba ba ba, ba, better
21:36:15 <metasepia> ZMUB 232130Z 00000MPS CAVOK M06/M08 Q1024 NOSIG RMK QFE659.9 89
21:38:27 <metasepia> ENSB 232050Z 14003KT CAVOK 00/M02 Q1034 RMK WIND 1400FT 26003KT
21:38:38 <boily> meh. it's colder in Ulaan Baatar than in Svalbard.
21:42:56 <kmc> http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ZMUB-ENSB
21:44:03 <metasepia> UEEE 232130Z 34006MPS 9999 BKN016CB OVC100 03/01 Q0997 NOSIG RMK QFE739 23190055
21:44:46 <kmc> ~metar KSFO
21:44:46 <metasepia> KSFO 232056Z 05003KT 10SM CLR 22/13 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP151 T02170133 58016
21:45:17 <boily> and you can chain them!
21:46:10 <boily> http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=CYUL-KEWR-VHHH
21:46:21 <kmc> yeah it's a cool site
21:46:36 <boily> and of course it's all nice and sunny and warm in Frisco.
21:46:45 <kmc> don't call it Frisco!!
21:46:59 <Bike> ulaanbaatar is in the middle of a continental desert, it gets super windy i think
21:47:10 <kmc> sorry we locals are supposed to get really annoyed when people call it Frisco
21:47:16 <boily> Bike: right now, there's no wind at that airport.
21:47:16 <kmc> I don't actually know why but it's A Thing
21:47:18 <Bike> what about Cisco
21:47:22 <kmc> Bike: even worse
21:47:32 <kmc> and yes, "Cisco" is named after the last five letters in "San Francisco"
21:48:00 <kmc> the old Nabisco building in Cambridge, MA is now owned by Novartis
21:48:23 <kmc> from biscuits to boner pills
21:48:42 <boily> Novartis owns all, except when property of GSK or Bayer.
21:48:48 <boily> (or probably Astra Zeneca)
21:49:33 <kmc> don't think Pfizer is owned by any of those
21:49:57 <kmc> Novartis is descended from the company that invented LSD
21:50:23 <boily> time to go empoison myself.
21:50:30 <olsner> hmm, one of the burger chains has a Frisco meal
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21:51:03 <kmc> there's a Frisco, Texas
21:51:18 <Bike> named entirely to piss off san franciscans
21:51:55 * kmc is now looking at Dallas and Houston on a map
21:51:58 <kmc> so many freeways
21:52:16 <kmc> not quite like LA though
21:56:45 * oerjan recalls looking up Frisco on wikipedia once. it actually was named after san francisco.
21:57:09 <oerjan> once = last couple of months, i think
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21:58:08 <olsner> I wonder if it's still named after san francisco
22:00:34 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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22:02:49 <kmc> "In 1904, the residents chose Frisco City in honor of the St. Louis-San Francisco Railway on which the town was founded"
22:03:38 <kmc> which railway apparently never made it west of Texas
22:03:43 <kmc> optimistic name
22:09:26 <kmc> we had a house office named Godspeed Through Texas
22:09:34 <kmc> I forget what their duties were, other than organizing Naked Run
22:11:06 <oerjan> i guess you'd need to speed through texas for that.
22:13:12 <kmc> it takes a long time to run from california to texas, whether or not you're naked
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00:28:29 <kmc> 17:27 < indirect> is it normal to get "pthread_mutex_lock(&_mutex) failed in src/rt/sync/lock_and_signal.cpp at line 79, result = 22 (Invalid argument)" every other time you run rust --version ?
00:28:41 <kmc> the answer appears to be "yes"
00:29:23 <kmc> i actually get anywhere between 0 and 3 copies of that error message when i run it
00:32:33 <ais523> I wonder what the distribution is, and whether it'd make a decent RNG
00:32:53 <ais523> also, why would a --version need a mutex anyway?
00:33:06 <ais523> (theory: it doesn't need one, but the code is trying to create one regardless, that's why it's failing)
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00:36:45 <kmc> yeah beats me, probably the RTS is to blame and not the --version code itself
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01:08:57 <ais523> err, to lock one regardless
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01:39:42 <Sgeo> "Mencius Moldbug’s Urbit system appears to be public!"
01:40:36 <Sgeo> http://www.urbit.org/
01:42:18 <Sgeo> "Nock has no “native methods” or foreign-function interface. Nor is it ever extended, embellished, forked, improved or advanced."
01:42:33 <Sgeo> Wasn't that tried with JSON? With less than positive results?
01:42:47 <Sgeo> Or, well, at least one negative result
01:46:35 <Sgeo> "Knowing Pascal made it harder, not easier, to learn C. Knowing Haskell or Lisp makes it harder to learn Hoon. Indeed, knowing either would have made it impossible for me to write Hoon."
01:48:55 <Bike> wasn't nock the psycho martian one
01:49:03 <Bike> (wasn't moldbug the psycho)
01:50:46 <Sgeo> " An atom is any natural number. "
01:50:51 <Sgeo> And it's already ambiguous
01:52:28 <Bike> natural number more like terribilural number
01:55:02 <Sgeo> "We should note that in Nock and Hoon, 0 (pronounced “yes”) is true, and 1 (“no”) is false. Why? It’s fresh, it’s different, it’s new. And it’s annoying. And it keeps you on your toes. And it’s also just intuitively right."
01:56:38 <Bike> so why are you reading this, and more importantly, having me personally read it
01:57:07 <Sgeo> Could be interesting
02:00:39 <kmc> moldbug invented a programming language??
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02:01:52 <Sgeo> I wish I could sleep tonight
02:01:58 <Sgeo> I have a deploy to do
02:02:20 <ais523> this sounds like an esolang, at least
02:02:26 <ais523> it might not be a good esolang, though
02:03:12 <Bike> kmc: the world is vast and mysterious.
02:07:52 <ais523> I've never heard of Moldbug, though; should I?
02:08:02 <Bike> no he's just an internet shithead
02:08:16 * oerjan realizes that any dependently typed version of rust should be called zeerust.
02:09:07 <kmc> oerjan: what's that
02:09:21 <ais523> oerjan: apparently my supervisor hired an expert on dependent typing in response to me giving them control of the compiler I'd been writing
02:09:29 <oerjan> kmc: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Zeerust
02:09:31 <Bike> zeerust is the jetsons
02:09:50 <ais523> also, did you just post a TV Tropes link?
02:10:23 <oerjan> ais523: hey _someone_ has to balance out your lawful goodness here
02:10:39 <ais523> is that meant to balance out the good, or the lawfu?
02:11:54 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
02:11:56 <oerjan> ais523: also, does that mean he needed a dependent typing expert to understand anything of what you did?
02:12:07 <kmc> oerjan: ah nice
02:12:36 <ais523> oerjan: no, or well, I doubt it
02:12:46 <ais523> given that it wasn't dependently typed
02:13:02 <oerjan> darn you missed an opportunity there.
02:13:03 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
02:13:11 <ais523> oerjan: it /should/ be dependently typed, really
02:13:25 <ais523> so it's a natural direction to go in
02:13:39 <HackEgo> olist 920: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
02:14:13 <ais523> bleh, names would be more useful than numbers, the numbers aren't memorable
02:14:26 <ais523> but yeah, that one was up like two days ago
02:14:39 <ais523> the only reason 919 was so slow is that it must have been a pain to draw
02:15:01 <oerjan> yeah but HackEgo was down, also i just checked.
02:16:13 <oerjan> i thought burlew had some kind of disease, but he's been picking up lately.
02:16:51 <oerjan> although there was something about a thumb accident. but i thought there was something else too.
02:16:53 <ais523> not a disease, it was an injury
02:17:01 <ais523> but yeah, might have been something else too
02:17:17 <ais523> he's been at his old pace (except with a random update schedule) recently
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02:25:50 <Sgeo> There was an injury recently, and a long time chronic disease
02:28:22 <mnoqy> ??long time chronic??
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03:45:45 <pikhq> As opposed to long time acute, of course.
03:48:05 <kmc> today is Celebrate Bisexuality Day apparently
03:50:11 <ais523> there are more than 366 goals to assign days to, I think
03:50:23 <ais523> so every day has quite a high chance of being represented
03:50:35 <ais523> (the chance of a clash would be very large even with only 30 or so, if they're picked randomly)
03:52:25 <kmc> same to you
03:52:35 <kmc> ais523: yep
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05:26:35 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:26:41 <Fiora> it was alreayd posted
05:26:52 <Bike> gotta work on your slist game
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07:33:33 <Taneb> `slist Dave and John's Hot Mom
07:33:38 <HackEgo> slist Dave and John's Hot Mom: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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12:30:33 <oerjan> @ask ais523 but which day is Birth Paradox Day?
12:33:03 * oerjan thinks d&d rules guy in mezzacotta is being particularly weird today.
12:33:49 <oerjan> i guess the moby dick guy isn't much saner.
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12:34:43 <nortti> hi shikhin, you seem familiar
12:34:59 <shikhin> Oh, interesting. I didn't even know such a place existed, I was just trying out random channels.
12:35:02 <HackEgo> shikhin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:37:02 <Phantom_Hoover> do you think relcome presents a misleading image of us
12:37:34 <shikhin> Ah, Taneb, heard a lot about you.
12:38:31 <oerjan> shikhin: do you happen to be from hexham and/or helsinki
12:38:40 <shikhin> < Taneb> Gordon Moore's expected lifespan doubles every 18 months
12:38:52 <shikhin> oerjan: No, but I know people from around (not exactly there, though).
12:39:07 <Taneb> oerjan, he sounds like he's from wherever boily and Roujo are from
12:39:32 <oerjan> should we start including montreal in the the question
12:39:44 <shikhin> Let's see you guys guess my ethnicity.
12:40:27 <oerjan> shikhin: that is highly irregular for this channel. and boily will be so displeased.
12:40:46 <shikhin> I'm irregular, or guessing ethnicity?
12:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> for god's sake is another esolang cluster forming in israel now
12:41:49 <oerjan> you are irregular. you are supposed to give your approximate coordinates for science purposes. but boily takes care of that.
12:42:01 <oerjan> also, Taneb is the most irregular here.
12:42:09 <shikhin> oerjan: I'm somewhere on Earth, if I'm judging my surroundings correctly.
12:42:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i was trying not to scare em away at once
12:42:25 <Phantom_Hoover> shikhin, so that averages out to somewhere around the core right
12:42:36 <shikhin> Phantom_Hoover: *on*, not *in*.
12:42:42 <oerjan> Taneb: well you're from irregular webcomic
12:42:55 <Taneb> I probably ought to go back there at some point
12:42:56 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: Israel is already a giant cluster
12:43:21 <shikhin> Phantom_Hoover: I suppose; it's rather hot in here.
12:43:28 <oerjan> Taneb: did you know dmm's wikipedia page was just deleted
12:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> although if you weight the average by population density it's probably a lot closer to asia
12:43:55 <oerjan> and iwc itself was up for discussion last i checked
12:44:03 <shikhin> Phantom_Hoover: Going on the right track, you are.
12:45:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey the cluster may have started in israel, and metastasized with shachaf
12:45:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, sure DMM wrote a bunch of RPG books and notable esolangs, doesn't that qualify for notable?
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12:47:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: all mentions were in "unreliable" or primary sources something something
12:48:44 <oerjan> david morgan-mar, author of irregular webcomic and other stuff
12:49:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes I do
12:49:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i suspect those didn't help any on wikipedia.
12:51:38 <oerjan> also dmm himself dropped by just to say he trusted them to make a fair decision.
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12:53:50 <oerjan> Taneb: oh also yesterday's http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=1588 made me look at http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/?comic=121 again and realize how brilliant that one was
12:54:26 <oerjan> (i assume you're following darths and droids?)
12:55:13 <oerjan> also, this is like a two-way inception.
12:56:50 <Taneb> Right now, I'm only following IWC and D&D
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13:06:41 <HackEgo> NiNiO: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
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13:08:36 <ninio> now I'm traveling in europe, it's 14.08pm
13:08:55 <ninio> What time is there?
13:09:23 <oerjan> ninio: you don't happen to be in hexham, uk at the moment?
13:10:13 <oerjan> (we have to hit one again sooner or later, right?)
13:11:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes i calculated, although if the offset from mine had been the other way i'd of course have asked helsinki.
13:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i may have momentarily been to hexham a few times, actually
13:11:45 <boily> hey, another guy who uses 24h time with pm!
13:12:15 <boily> I'm not the only one!
13:12:22 <oerjan> boily: btw shikhin is new and is being all mysterious about his whereabouts
13:12:54 <nortti> shikhin lives in █████
13:13:04 <oerjan> he's not in hexham, though, although disturbingly he knows who Taneb is.
13:13:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think you have, if this is the trains
13:13:13 <boily> oerjan: thanks a lot for providing me with vict^H^H^H^Hpeople to whom I can ask the The Question!
13:13:28 <Taneb> Unless you frequently travel Carlisle <-> Newcastle
13:14:24 <boily> ninio: who are you? d'où viens-tu? ¿qué es un busón? what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
13:14:29 <oerjan> nortti: wtf is that an actual [REDACTED] character
13:14:43 <nortti> no, unicide full block
13:14:52 <boily> oerjan: you don't have clearance to understand nortti.
13:15:20 <boily> shikhin: bon matin! where are you from? whate are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
13:15:35 <boily> (aaaaaah, the incredible feeling of asking the The Question...)
13:15:57 <boily> ninio: yes. the The Question.
13:16:01 <oerjan> nortti: the google hits all seem to use it for redaction though. also, is unicide what you want to do after being frustrated by unicode too many times?
13:16:25 <boily> (lesson of the day: don't try to drink yesterday's maté. bletch.)
13:16:48 <oerjan> boily: that applies also to coffee
13:17:35 <boily> oerjan: I don't drink coffee at work anymore. that thing they make is becoming more and more toxic.
13:17:58 <ninio> it depends on the quality, quantity
13:18:19 <boily> and on the cleanliness of the machine, and drinkability of water.
13:18:38 * boily shudders at the memories... “You weren't there, man! You can't understand!”
13:18:41 <nortti> oerjan: 16:18 <@sortiecat> Unicide is when people can't read your suicide note because they lack the proper font.
13:19:11 <boily> `learn Unicide is when people can't read your suicide note because they lack the proper font.
13:20:26 <oerjan> boily: btw i don't think ninio was saying he was in london _now_ in case that wasn't clear.
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13:20:53 <oerjan> he's in europe, in the same timezone, though, which afair leaves ireland and portugal.
13:21:11 <boily> oerjan: I know. he still haven't answered.
13:21:39 <ninio> sorry boys I'm too slow.
13:21:40 * boily stares at ninio with the kind of manic grin you only find on used car salesmen
13:22:11 <oerjan> boily: and rabid dogs?
13:22:36 <boily> oerjan: I'm not frothing yet, even if that sip of maté still tastes quite bad.
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13:23:31 <ninio> Oh ok, Sorry I did not want to disturb anyone . best wishes.
13:25:21 <oerjan> ninio: you're not disturbing, it's not like much was happening at the moment.
13:26:05 <oerjan> oh his ip's in portugal.
13:27:31 <Phantom_Hoover> you know i think this hexinky/question stuff has run its course
13:27:38 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please don't be scared off by the The Question | PDF still available during construction work: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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13:28:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you know i think you thought that from when it started.
13:28:29 <boily> another one disappeared :(
13:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> it's just now all it seems to accomplish is creeping noobs out with no real humour behind it
13:30:38 <boily> our PR has become quite bad. we need to revamp it.
13:31:12 <boily> maybe entice forthcoming newcomers with a nice and shiny BF derivative on the wiki's front page?
13:31:54 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe, ah, actually ask them what their interest in the channel is
13:32:11 <oerjan> This Month's Brainfuck Derivative
13:32:38 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: right.
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14:04:21 <Taneb> `slist busy busy busy everyone's on LOFAF
14:04:23 <HackEgo> slist busy busy busy everyone's on LOFAF: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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14:13:48 <shikhin> boily: I'm from your friendly neighborhood; as for my body weight, it's about 88.8kg.
14:14:41 <boily> shikhin: I'll put you in Pittsburgh, then.
14:15:02 <shikhin> Oh, not the *physical* neighborhood.
14:15:26 * shikhin is slightly bored; why don't you try guessing? :-)
14:15:41 <shikhin> My name should be a big hint, and I've betrayed my continent above already.
14:15:50 <boily> I'm not in Pittsburgh, but in Montréal. Mr. Roger's Neighbourhood was produced in Pittsburgh.
14:16:36 <boily> shikhin: the betrayal happened afore my connection to the chännel. let me lurk and slurch and gather intelligence in a most unsubtle manner...
14:17:06 <oerjan> shikhin: but israel has been guessed already!
14:17:22 <boily> <Phantom_Hoover> i once heard taneb punched a hole in the chancellor ← which one?
14:17:25 <shikhin> Hint (since I'm not too sure why you're all even trying, I'll make it a bit easier):
14:17:37 <shikhin> Try Google, you'll find my name is rather unique.
14:18:17 <shikhin> Phantom_Hoover: No, those ruins are named after me (or rather, after I was born)... :-)
14:18:51 <boily> shikhin is from the future (88 kg/hour!), from the ruins of Pittsburgh, Israel.
14:18:54 <oerjan> ok is this your site http://shikhin.in/
14:19:08 <shikhin> Aha, got me... should be very easy, now.
14:19:17 <shikhin> Not boily, but oerjan. :-)
14:20:42 <shikhin> Hrm, does 'shikhin' sound Israeli to you folks?
14:21:41 <oerjan> shikhin: it's vaguely hebrew in phonology
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14:22:30 <oerjan> and there actually _is_ such a place.
14:22:42 <shikhin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikhin -- yeah, stole my name.
14:22:58 <oerjan> and we already have shachaf, a regular channel member.
14:23:17 <shikhin> shachaf is close to shikhin?
14:24:13 <oerjan> they're both typical semitic-sounding three-consonant words
14:25:00 <oerjan> and two of the consonants are the same, modulo slight transliteration difference
14:25:28 <oerjan> of course the -kh- is probably not pronounced the same for a hebrew word as an indian one.
14:25:28 <boily> @tell shachaf is it /ʃatʃaf/ or /ʃaχaf/
14:25:55 <boily> @tell shachaf oerjan clarified me. disregard the question.
14:26:06 <boily> oerjan: thanks. tdh.
14:26:43 <shikhin> oerjan: Probably; I'd have given you the IPA, but I don't do well with IPA.
14:26:47 <oerjan> i expect the indian is actually /ʃikhin/ or so
14:27:05 <oerjan> maybe the h should be superscript, i don't know how to do that in irc.
14:27:09 <shikhin> oerjan: It's like the 'kh' in 'khan'; I guess more people do well with muslim names than Indian ones :-)
14:27:11 <boily> I think Armenian is one of the few languages that has contrastive [χ] and [ʁ].
14:28:01 <shikhin> boily: I've not much clue how to read that, so, heh :-)
14:28:37 <boily> shikhin: it's kinda like an s, but more “k”-ish, with your tongue stuck to your palate.
14:29:20 <oerjan> i know indo-aryan languages have aspirated plosives, so i assumed kh was one. also how i pronounce it in "khan" but i don't know if that is actually right.
14:29:22 <shikhin> boily: Doesn't feel like it; let me think of an English word which matches with the pronunciation of 'kh'.
14:30:12 <oerjan> (of course norwegian/english also have that sound - we just lack the _unaspirated_ version.)
14:30:17 <boily> shikhin: english doesn't have it, sadly. such an interesting sound...
14:30:46 <shikhin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad04HEqKIoA -- there, that does 'khan' properly.
14:31:04 <boily> oerjan: for a francophone, trying to make a difference between unaspirated/aspirated is next to impossible.
14:31:06 <shikhin> If anyone of you provided the right alternative, do tell me :-)
14:31:33 <shikhin> As for English, yeah, can't think of any word.
14:31:35 <oerjan> shikhin: i think that's what i thought it was.
14:31:50 <boily> oerjan: don't pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes.
14:31:54 * shikhin presumes no one is stuck at 'shi' or 'in'.
14:32:31 <boily> shikhin: there are sound bits (of varying quality) for all the possible phonemes on wikipedia.
14:32:32 <oerjan> shikhin: the _usual_ english pronunciation of k is aspirated, although not as much as in that youtube link
14:33:58 * shikhin isn't as good with phonetics.
14:34:42 <shikhin> Although, yeah, the 'kh' part looks plosive, if I'm going by the right definition.
14:35:11 <boily> shikhin: what is your mother language?
14:35:45 <shikhin> I was taught both Hindi and English, as my first languages.
14:36:29 <boily> probably a velar plosive.
14:36:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i think the kh in shikhin and khan are like english k but a bit more aspirated.
14:37:42 * shikhin is trying to figure out the difference between velar and uvular.
14:39:00 <oerjan> uvular is far back in the mouth, at the uvula which is that weird thing hanging down.
14:39:23 <boily> trilling the uvular is a fun activity.
14:40:03 <Taneb> Wow, that's a consonant I did not realise I could pronounce
14:40:28 <oerjan> boily: to repeat, i think german might contrast [χ] and [ʁ] ?
14:40:36 <shikhin> Hrm, amazing how everyone at #esoteric are phonetics experts?
14:41:06 <oerjan> shikhin: some of them drive us others crazy by talking in japanese or french
14:41:19 <boily> oerjan: oh. I didn't parse «german, might?» correctly the first time.
14:41:28 <oerjan> boily: i suspected so :)
14:42:27 <boily> oerjan: je vois pas de quoi tu veux parler :D 僕は意味ないよ^^
14:42:59 <oerjan> (at least i understood that french. i think.)
14:44:12 <boily> google translate sucks at Japanese... :/...
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14:44:49 <oerjan> boily: jeg kan også være ubegripelig hvis jeg vil!
14:47:43 <boily> oerjan: manqué. j'ai compris ta tentavie d'incompréhension :p
14:48:07 <boily> (I need to remember "ubegripelig")
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14:48:51 <oerjan> boily: hm it seems german pronounces -r at the end of words as a vowel, so maybe not.
14:50:16 <oerjan> gt doesn't know "tentavie"
14:52:55 <oerjan> so if german only uses [χ] at the end of syllables and [ʁ] at the beginning of syllables, finding a contrast might be hard.
14:53:53 <Taneb> Maybe to a German mind an [χ] is just a [ʁ] at the the end of a syllable, and vice versa
14:53:55 <boily> oerjan: tentative.
14:54:02 <Taneb> (I do not possess a German mind)
14:54:39 <oerjan> Taneb: i find that etymologically implausible.
14:55:37 <oerjan> as they come from /g/ and /r/ in germanic respectively afaiu
14:56:33 <oerjan> Taneb: and also, /r/ at the end of a syllable becomes [ɐ̯]
14:58:14 <oerjan> Führer has a [ʁ] in it, so maybe it can work _between_ vowels.
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14:58:36 <oerjan> except not that one, since [χ] needs a back vowel in front.
15:00:02 <oerjan> hm "fahren" can apparently be pronounced both ways.
15:02:25 <oerjan> the audio clips sound like [χ]
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15:05:28 <oerjan> shikhin: psst "Homo Sapiens" is not a plural
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15:07:01 <Taneb> If you want to be pedantic, the plural is "homines sapientes"
15:07:27 <boily> homineses sapientises.
15:09:53 <oerjan> argumentum ad hominem sapientem
15:10:52 * oerjan fell into a latin grammar as a child
15:20:47 <boily> IN ALTERNATIVUM UNIVERSAM, oerjan speaks latin.
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15:47:07 <boily> a coworker helped me with some macro stuff. there are thiiiiiiings going on underneath vim's hood.
15:48:38 <boily> (and my "w is polluted with all the editing I did lately on the Wisdom.)
15:48:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
15:49:05 <nortti> I wonder if this still works
15:49:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28803
15:50:50 <metasepia> "I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at
15:50:50 <metasepia> the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace
15:50:50 <metasepia> to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal
15:50:50 <metasepia> judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."
15:50:50 <metasepia> [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]
15:50:59 <boily> you didn't see that.
15:52:06 <boily> nortti: it's usually mine.
15:52:26 <metasepia> Alimony is like buying oats for a dead horse.
15:52:49 <boily> nortti: I... think I'm going to disown it if it persists to spew out stupid quotes.
15:53:27 <nortti> hmm, what cmdchars are currently in use, here?
15:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, why do you have the offensive database turned on...
16:17:07 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
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16:22:05 <elliott> so horse_ebooks is just part of the pronunciationbook ARG
16:22:19 <elliott> I think I need to get off the internet.
16:22:29 <nortti> how do I register # to oonbotti(|2|3) ?
16:24:23 <Bike> elliott: i know what you're feeling :(
16:24:30 <Bike> nothing is honest and true
16:24:38 <elliott> Bike: I don't... I don't think I even have feelings any more.
16:26:06 <Bike> it's ok. we can get through this. unless it turns out i'm actually an advertisement for Ford™ Trucks (Truck Strong08:49 < HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28803. then you're on your own.
16:26:10 <Bike> 08:49 < nortti> it seems, yes
16:26:13 <Bike> 08:50 < boily> ~fortune
16:26:15 <Bike> 08:50 < metasepia> "I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at
16:26:19 <Bike> you know what, that's about as intelligent as what i was saying.
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16:31:13 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:14 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:14 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:14 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:15 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:15 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:16 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:16 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:17 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
16:31:17 -!- oonbotti2 has left.
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16:40:11 <Bike> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/09/-horse-ebooks-is-the-most-successful-piece-of-cyber-fiction-ever/279946/
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16:41:24 <elliott> oh, all the tweets were still actually markov chained?
16:41:41 <Bike> it doesn't say either way
16:42:22 <elliott> also it seems like it was actually a spambot to start with and then bought a few years ago? probably coinciding with when all the tweets started showing up as being posted from the web, cue apparently-correct conspiracy theories
16:43:19 -!- underfl0w has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:44:17 <Bike> i'm not that deep into horse_ebooks historiography
16:46:12 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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17:06:50 <Bike> http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-09/why-were-shutting-our-comments "comments sections tend to be a grotesque reflection of the media culture surrounding them" so just shut 'em off totally
17:08:21 -!- jconn has joined.
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17:09:56 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: can't remember why.
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17:18:14 <Guest2360> Hello folks from the mountains of Natal, South Africa.
17:18:52 <boily> today is a wonderful internationesotical day!
17:18:55 <boily> `relcome Guest2360
17:18:59 <HackEgo> Guest2360: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:19:56 -!- Guest2360 has left.
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17:23:40 <fizzie> I think I'm getting that framed, it was so perfect an example of the proper sequence of welcoming events.
17:25:13 <kmc> would have been better with rainwords :(
17:27:22 <boily> kmc: a corowking haskeller is slowly transiting to the Rust side of the Force.
17:27:32 -!- carado has quit (Client Quit).
17:27:43 -!- carado has joined.
17:29:33 <fizzie> [[ Haskell is "the" standard lazy functional programming language. ]] --Debian 'ghc' package description.
17:30:09 <kmc> boily: what does your friend want to use Rust for?
17:30:14 <kmc> it's not really an alternative to Haskell, of course...
17:30:43 <boily> a use??? it's only for learning and exploring.
17:30:49 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot shikhin SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
17:31:03 <boily> he's a lisper at heart, but dabbles in everything he can get to compile on his machine.
17:31:03 <shikhin_> Oh, d'oh, that's what it does.
17:31:11 <kmc> supreme butt
17:36:34 -!- tiger717 has joined.
17:37:15 <HackEgo> tiger717: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:37:27 <boily> I need autocompletion on bot commands.
17:37:52 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
17:38:48 <nortti> it seems that #<redacted> people are slowly flowing over here
17:40:34 <boily> nortti: strangely, no Colombians today.
17:41:11 <nortti> I don't think there's anyone from colombia on #<redacted>
17:41:49 <boily> hm. <redacted> is a valid channel name...
17:45:28 -!- Guest2360 has joined.
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17:48:09 <fizzie> RFCistically speaking, most things are valid channel names, since the only prohibited octets are NUL, BEL, LF, CR, space, comma and colon.
17:48:21 <fizzie> Sadly, freenode seems to take a dim view on control characters in channel names.
17:48:48 <fizzie> IRCnet is perfectly happy with e.g. #esoteric
17:50:02 <boily> «#⎈ :Illegal channel name». bummer.
17:50:54 <fizzie> boily: http://sprunge.us/NRHS <- IRCnet.
17:51:59 <kmc> can you /join #̈
17:52:26 <Gregor> * #̈ :Illegal channel name
17:53:40 <fizzie> freenode seems very narrow-minded about this.
17:56:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/09/computer-simulations-suggest-war-drove-the-rise-of-civilizations/ i feel like this deserves to be laughed at
18:01:58 <Gregor> Because it's obviously true, or because it manages to be unconvincing of something which is obviously true?
18:07:01 <boily> ~duck ars technica
18:07:02 <metasepia> Ars Technica (Latin-derived for the "art of technology") is a technology news and information website created by Ken Fisher and Jon Stokes in 1998.
18:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> well because it seems like a really shoddy basis on which to do anthropology
18:07:25 <metasepia> Formed by the flood waters of the White Nile, it varies in size seasonally.
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18:39:05 <kmc> arse technica
18:40:19 -!- azaq23 has joined.
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18:58:18 <Gregor> ~duck Let's just hold all our conversations in DuckDuckGo search queries from now on.
18:58:42 <boily> Gregor: that's silly. even I won't do that.
18:58:47 <metasepia> SillyHair Kara is an adjective meaning having foolish hair!!! or in a foolish manner.
19:01:55 <kmc> let's not and say we did
19:02:49 -!- tmatth has left ("Leaving").
19:06:22 <fizzie> SillyHair Kara sounds like someone related to Real Fast Nora.
19:07:04 <fizzie> Or possibly an archenemy or something.
19:10:49 <Gregor> Database returned error "145: Table './esolang_wiki/searchindex' is marked as crashed and should be repaired (localhost)".
19:11:11 <Gregor> Fiora: Perhaps SillyHair Kara is the perpetrator of the Shear-related Disaster!
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19:13:58 <boily> fizziello. Fihellora. Grellor.
19:15:39 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
19:18:34 <Fiora> sillyhair...? kara?
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19:18:50 <AnotherTest> why are right cosets sometimes called left cosets, and how does that make sense at all
19:19:07 <Taneb> Fiora, I'd like to return from my exile from your channel
19:19:27 <Fiora> oh. um. currently it's kind of just a private channel for a couple people
19:19:50 <AnotherTest> does this also mean that left cosets are sometimes called right cosets?
19:20:13 <Taneb> Aaah I can't regoin it's invite only
19:20:16 <Taneb> I can't even rejoin
19:20:17 <AnotherTest> I would assume so unless the people who call right cosets left cosets have another name for left cosets
19:21:13 <fizzie> Fiora: Apparently we look so much alike that people confuse which one they were talking to. (I deduce you're some kind of bearded dude.)
19:22:55 <olsner> fizzie: too many people starting with fi- in the same place
19:23:12 <AnotherTest> I don't see why though, I thought you got xH by using right multiplication as a group action
19:23:32 -!- boily has changed nick to fi-.
19:23:35 <Fiora> fizzie: I don't think I'm either of those :P
19:23:45 -!- AnotherTest has changed nick to FinotherTest.
19:24:39 <Gregor> fi- FinotherTest Fiora FireFly fizzie WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY (also sorry for pinging you FireFly)
19:24:57 -!- Taneb has changed nick to fitaneb.
19:25:17 * Gregor is now known as Firegor
19:25:19 <fitaneb> I can never see a bandwagon without jumping on it
19:25:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Fintom_Hoover.
19:25:38 <FireFly> Are bandwagons common in Hexham?
19:25:50 <Fiora> help everyone is fiii
19:25:56 <Gregor> FireFly: The internal combustion engine has not yet reached Hexham.
19:26:02 <fizzie> Everyone's looking fine.
19:26:15 <fitaneb> Gregor, we have a shop that sells "Horseless Carriages"
19:26:23 -!- Fiora has changed nick to feefifofum.
19:26:29 -!- feefifofum has changed nick to Fiora.
19:26:45 <fitaneb> It's called Hexham Horseless Carriages
19:26:46 <fi-> It's the final countdown! doo doo doo dooooo ♪ do-do-do do doooo ♪
19:26:52 <Gregor> <fitaneb> Or rather, had, until the owner was killed for heresy.
19:27:41 <fi-> fungot: you should rename yourself to fingot.
19:27:42 <fungot> fi-: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
19:27:51 -!- fitaneb has changed nick to Taneb.
19:27:56 <FireFly> Considering the country of origin distribution of people in the channel.. it seems fitting
19:27:56 -!- fi- has changed nick to boily.
19:28:13 <boily> Fintom_Hoover: can I subtly ~duck him?
19:28:17 <fizzie> He knows how to make clones.
19:28:23 -!- FinotherTest has changed nick to AnotherTest.
19:29:25 <boily> ~duck nolstein bekkler
19:29:30 <fizzie> It is very ungood that if you change the nick of a fungot, it'll still only respond if the old name is spoken, it's not terribly self-aware.
19:29:30 <fungot> fizzie: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil...
19:29:34 <olsner> Norstein Bekkler's Tent of Horrors is in the Present
19:29:58 <fizzie> fungot: Again you go with the death threats.
19:29:58 <fungot> fizzie: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
19:30:00 <boily> fizzie: the 'got is right. shed off your mortal coil!
19:30:23 <AnotherTest> when we have suffl'd of this mortal coil, must give us pause
19:30:45 <AnotherTest> is it on shakespeare mode or something / does it know shakespeare
19:30:56 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
19:31:19 <fizzie> (I don't think Shakespeare wrote so much about the gate key.)
19:31:33 <fungot> AnotherTest: hildersham. was that the king that spurd his horse so hard, against the forme of a souldier i will vndertake it
19:31:38 <boily> fungot: shed shed shed, shed your booty!
19:31:39 <fungot> boily: pros. marke his condition, and th' euent, then tell me, hero: wooing, wedding, and repenting is as a louers pinch, which hurts and is desir'd. dost thou speake? your eyes do menace me: why looke you pale, mistris? do you heare monster: if i loose them, thus find i by their losse, for valentine, my selfe haue anne page
19:32:19 <fizzie> It's all sourced from randomish Project Gutenberg texts.
19:32:42 <boily> ualentine, which incidentally was how a former Chinese coworker pronounced it.
19:33:03 <boily> (took me several days to catch on on what he was talking about.)
19:34:28 <AnotherTest> anyway, does anyone know why some people call right cosets left cosets?
19:36:01 <olsner> "Everything you view and contribute on Facebook is private and will not appear on Facebook" <-- some site that wants me to log in with facebook
19:40:36 <AnotherTest> aha http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/392841/what-is-the-reason-for-the-name-left-coset
19:41:26 <kmc> sinister cosets
19:42:40 <AnotherTest> the book I'm reading uses right for what's usually called left it appears
19:54:17 <boily> AnotherTest: turn the book around.
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20:16:26 <FreeFull> They could just call them cosets
20:16:55 <FreeFull> If there is a difference between left and right cosets, keep the terminology the same everywhere
20:18:42 <boily> all this is making me feel miserable.
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21:01:48 <oerjan> @tell nortti Registering new bot prefixes needs to be done separately on fungot, HackEgo and EgoBot (and presumably any new bot that allows anyone to make a prefixes command.) Incidentally the fungot process is a pain at the moment because of jconn's unmatched ), can i interest you in using a ( prefix?
21:01:49 <fungot> oerjan: actus secundus. scoena prima. coriolanus. well, masters, good night indeed. who's that i pray'thee? bawd. marry sir, so painted, to make misfortune liue? groo. i was
21:02:34 <boily> oerjan: won't a ( prefix break havoc all-around the chännel?
21:02:48 <boily> (inasmuch the channel can be more broken thant what it is at the moment...)
21:20:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:23:52 <oerjan> boily: well (-space is also acceptable, jconn does )-space after all.
21:24:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Using brainfuck instead of just writing [CLOSE PARENTHESIS YO] shows commendable dedication.
21:24:58 <oerjan> boily: also not all robots give an error message on unknown commands. fungot doesn't.
21:24:59 <fungot> oerjan: viola. the honourable lady of the house i did enquire for? cel. it pleases your worship to morrow morning let vs meete him then, whom you accuse, let me redeeme my brothers both from death
21:25:04 -!- myndzi has joined.
21:25:29 <oerjan> fizzie: IT DOES DOESN'T IT?
21:25:35 <fungot> fizzie: car. what, sir, i haue a letter from the cardinal? norfolk. my lord
21:26:45 <oerjan> the hardest part isn't generating the brainfuck, but breaking it up and serving it to fungot ^str btw.
21:26:45 <fungot> oerjan: cam. good my lord
21:27:22 <boily> aaaaaaaaurgh. I have this empty void in my heart that can only be filled by a mechanical keyboard, but they're expensive!
21:27:55 <oerjan> boily: mechanical keyboards are _not_ recommended as pacemakers.
21:29:58 <boily> oerjan: don't care. my fingers are more important than my internal organs, stomach notwithstanding.
21:30:16 <boily> (I still need something to process down phở, mind you)
21:30:45 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
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21:33:09 <oerjan> the _ conspiracy is growing
21:34:37 -!- Fintom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
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21:36:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i dunno, michael is pretty ordinary.
21:36:46 * oerjan cannot recall if he's ever learned Phantom_Hoover's first name.
21:37:37 * Taneb thinks I can remember like half of it
21:38:21 <myname> Taneb: like all the vokals?
21:40:31 <elliott> J. Edgar Hoover gave his kids really weird names.
21:40:35 <boily> Koen_: you are of the _iform.
21:40:56 <boily> elliott: jedgar was Frank Zappa in disguise.
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21:43:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: or wait is it actually micheál
21:44:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: of northern irish descent?
21:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> putting accents all over the place doesn't make it irish!
21:45:15 <boily> that's the French version.
21:45:33 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:45:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well google gave me these variations
21:46:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: *sneeze*).
21:46:38 <oerjan> Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh
21:49:30 <oerjan> + what i vaguely recall of your real name.
21:49:56 <oerjan> or being claimed to be it, anyway.
21:50:37 <fizzie> If you keep telling people Phantom_Hoover's real name is Adahn, an Adahn will appear at a bar in the Hive.
21:51:20 <oerjan> anyway google somehow thinks accents and switched vowels is just the thing for irish michaels.
21:51:29 <oerjan> fizzie: is that a reference
21:51:38 <fizzie> oerjan: To Planescape: Torment, yes.
21:52:23 <fizzie> oerjan: (If you, as the player character, keep answering the (imaginary) "Adahn" whenever someone asks for your name, Adahn the Imagined, a very confused person, will indeed appear.)
21:54:21 <fizzie> Maybe I should add PS:T as one of fungot's game options. It's as long as a book, so it might not be as repetitive as some other styles.
21:54:22 <fungot> fizzie: petruchio. did ever dian so become a groue as kate this chamber with her princely gait? o! if you be so good touchstone: look you how pale he glares, his forme and cause conioyn'd, preaching to stones, would make them capeable. do not presume to tempt them with ill words, nor worth, action, nor vtterance, nor the deuision of the twentieth part of one.
21:55:05 <fizzie> (Well, a long book, apparently, at 800k words.)
22:03:12 -!- Bike has joined.
22:07:42 <Bike> sireously bil gatess is a master class programmer bro nobody can make windows like show smooth and sweat
22:08:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
22:08:31 <Bike> he is best programme rin the world dude
22:12:38 <oerjan> Bike doesn't need voice, he needs an exorcism.
22:13:01 <oerjan> or possibly to guard his computer better.
22:13:15 <Bike> bil gates is master class programmer but he dont speak about it
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22:43:37 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest presumably they can't agree whether "left" refers to the side of the single element or the subgroup? i don't even remember which convention we used.
22:43:38 <FreeFull> luslus dec sigfas cen dec bartis a tis pat sigbar soq dec soq ketcab pat wutgal tis pel zero a per tislus b tis pat barhep wutcol tis pel a lus pel b per per b buc pel b lus pel b per per
22:47:39 <Bike> How would I rename every file named foo_[stuff] in a directory to just [stuff]? I'm bad at shell.
22:48:05 <elliott> Bike: rename 's/^foo_//' *
22:48:19 <FreeFull> elliott: Weird, my rename doesn't do regex
22:48:27 <elliott> I think that's the Perl rename.
22:48:31 <Bike> Except I just put this in git.
22:48:32 <elliott> rename 'foo_' '' * for the other one maybe.
22:49:01 <Bike> Maybe I should have renamed before gitting.
22:49:26 <elliott> Bike: for file in foo_*; do git mv $file $(echo $file | sed 's/^foo_//'); done ?
22:49:35 <elliott> (I know, useless use of sed. but I forget bash's replacement syntax all the time >_>)
22:49:48 <elliott> also don't do this if your filenames have spaces in them, etc. etc. etc. also git doesn't actually track renames.
22:50:34 <Bike> for i already did the rename
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22:52:56 <FreeFull> Bike: Well, get rid of the commit pernamently
22:53:07 <Bike> I said too late!
22:53:57 <elliott> Bike: you can do the git mvs anyway, if the resulting filenames have a pattern you can glob over
22:54:19 <elliott> well, I guess you have to git rm/git add if they already got renamed.
22:54:40 <elliott> you could also just git reset --hard and then do the git mvs, of course!
22:58:27 * Bike sighs, downloads all files again
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23:19:24 <fizzie> for f in foo_*; do mv $f ${f/foo_/}; done # the manual way
23:19:33 <fizzie> (Not too late at all.)
23:20:07 <Bike> i literally started from scratch four times in the interim, no worries.
23:21:52 <FreeFull> Bike: You can always make a local copy
23:22:13 <Bike> that's what i was doing. since davfs won't let me touch files and such for some reason.
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05:44:58 <fizzie> Aw, no METARsepia present.
05:59:50 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:00:34 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:00:47 <shikhin__> Fiora: Isn't `list what you're looking for?
06:00:49 -!- shikhin__ has changed nick to shikhin.
06:01:05 <Fiora> slist is the homestuck list.
06:01:07 <shikhin> nortti told me that `slist changed into `list.
06:01:26 <Fiora> I don't know what list is, sorry ^^;
06:01:38 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot shikhin SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
06:01:44 <Fiora> that doesn't look like the same thing
06:02:32 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
06:03:16 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ Taneb \ atriq \ Ngevd \ Fiora \ nortti \ Sgeo \ ThatOtherPerson \ alot
06:06:42 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
06:07:02 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:07:14 <Bike> wait, where's the crack about hacking again
06:07:15 <Bike> well whatever.
06:07:26 <Bike> `relcome shikhin
06:07:30 <HackEgo> shikhin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:07:36 <shikhin> Bike: I got the welcome, yesterday :-)
06:08:06 <Bike> a little collateral damage never hurt nobody important
06:09:41 <kmc> `run welcome shikhin | rainwords
06:09:44 <HackEgo> shikhin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:10:17 <kmc> much better innit
06:10:27 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:10:45 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
06:10:56 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
06:11:15 <HackEgo> bash: ifconfig: command not found
06:11:23 <Bike> shikhin: it's gregor's pregorative
06:11:31 <Bike> i can't spell that word
06:12:31 <Bike> `run dmesg | tail
06:12:33 <HackEgo> loop: module loaded \ TCP: cubic registered \ NET: Registered protocol family 10 \ sit: IPv6 over IPv4 tunneling driver \ Initialized stdio console driver \ Console initialized on /dev/tty0 \ console [tty0] enabled \ Initializing software serial port version 1 \ console [mc-1] enabled \ ubda: unknown partition table
06:12:45 <kmc> `run dmesg | paste
06:12:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26859
06:13:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5680
06:13:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16508
06:13:48 <kmc> I ran http://codemonkey.org.uk/projects/trinity/ against UMLBox and pretty quickly found something that would hang the "VM", but nothing more interesting
06:14:08 <Bike> i think you can just do uh
06:14:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste
06:14:12 <Bike> something like that?
06:14:15 <kmc> UML is pretty dodgy and weird and obscure though, so there probably is some VM breakout exploit if you want to find it
06:15:33 <olsner> "User-Mode Linux is a safe, secure way of running [stuff]."
06:15:34 <Bike> shikhin: check out the wisdom pdf for all our stupid bullshit in pleasantly ignorable form
06:15:52 <shikhin> Bike: Yeah, it's on my read-me :-)
06:16:50 <Bike> you have a readme?
06:17:15 <olsner> looks like this page has all the wrong information... I don't want to *use* UML, I want to know how it works
06:17:30 <shikhin> Bike: Not readme, read-me. :P
06:17:45 <shikhin> "These are the articles that want to be read by me."
06:17:48 <Bike> sounds too complicated for me
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06:32:20 <olsner> apparently it works by running processes with ptrace to catch their system calls, and seems to actually run the "kernel" code inside those processes while temporarily disabling system call tracing
06:32:38 <olsner> (according to http://kernel.org/doc/ols/2001/uml.pdf)
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06:37:46 <fizzie> olsner: They have (had?) different modes; that's the TT ("Tracing Thread") one.
06:38:04 <fizzie> olsner: There's also the SKAS ("Separate Kernel Address Space") mode, which I think had two different versions.
06:38:58 <fizzie> The latter needs (needed?) some specific patches in the host kernel.
06:39:02 <fizzie> http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/old/skas.html -- might be kinda outdated.
06:39:40 <fizzie> "These patches are against 2.4.19 --" yes, very modern.
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06:41:10 <fizzie> Wikipedia claims that "A method of running a separate kernel address space (SKAS) that does not require host kernel patching has been implemented".
06:51:25 <fizzie> `run grep skas /proc/cpuinfo
06:54:18 <fizzie> I suppose even skas mode involves ptrace, but it only has a single UML userspace process and not one host process per guest process.
06:54:43 <nortti> shikhin: no, `slist used to be named `list
06:59:29 <nortti> @ask oerjan why '(' and why would using it make fungot process a less of a pain?
06:59:30 <fungot> nortti: anne. no, no, nor never make fair weather yet a while, and like me banished, then mightest thou teare thy hayre, and fall a cursing like a very drab. a scullion? fye vpon't: foh. about my stature: for at pentecost, when all that is mine
06:59:32 <olsner> https://lkml.org/lkml/2005/7/1/203 has some details on this "skas0" mode (skas without host kernel patches)
07:00:35 <olsner> that's more like what I expected in the first place instead of the "Tracing Thread" mode
07:03:15 <olsner> though it does still involve some code running inside each UML process, and ptrace
07:04:06 <fizzie> static int show_cpuinfo(struct seq_file *m, void *v) { [...] seq_printf(m, "mode\t\t: skas\n");
07:04:11 <fizzie> It also seems to be the only mode these days.
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10:56:25 <Deewiant> https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1309_14-17_mickens.pdf
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12:47:37 <oerjan> @tell nortti because then i can define the command in simple underload fitting in one irc line instead of generated brainfuck that needs to be fed in through several lines. (underload has very simple printing but cannot handle unmatched parentheses.)
12:49:22 <nortti> actually, for oonbotti3, I was already going to do that
12:49:53 <oerjan> wait are these 3 different bots, there's only so many bots we can fit you know.
12:50:24 <nortti> no, oonbotti3 will replace ob2, like ob2 replaced ob
12:51:42 <oerjan> also someone pointed out plain ( might not be a good idea, (+space might work better.
12:51:51 <oerjan> (because of people speaking like this.)
12:52:39 <oerjan> although that only matters if oonbotti? reacts to unknown commands.
12:54:22 <oerjan> @tell shikhin <shikhin> nortti told me that `slist changed into `list. <-- no it's the other way around, `slist used to be called just `list before the lists multiplied.
12:55:45 <oerjan> i think i somehow got confused about your spelling when checking.
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13:01:33 <oerjan> <Bike> wait, where's the crack about hacking again
13:01:44 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
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13:02:58 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
13:04:24 <shikhin> `run rm -rf / --no-preserve-root
13:04:36 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
13:05:36 <nortti> oerjan: I already told him that
13:05:58 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/meta_bg_resize': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/batched_discard': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/lazy_itable_init': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/cgroup': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/bus/cpu/devices/cpu0': Permission
13:06:12 <shikhin> Wait, wasn't it running with root?
13:06:33 <oerjan> shikhin: that part of the message was meant ironically.
13:07:11 <oerjan> you're still welcome to try to break out of the sandbox, i think.
13:07:29 <oerjan> i don't think anyone has got very far.
13:08:05 <HackEgo> bash: shutdown: command not found
13:08:14 <HackEgo> bash: restart: command not found
13:08:21 <shikhin> Ok, that's as far as I can try.
13:08:25 <oerjan> very very few people manage to break things enough that we cannot just fix it with the `revert command.
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13:08:39 <shikhin> Perhaps very few are motivated enough?
13:08:49 <shikhin> Set up a $1000 price, I'm sure more will succeed.
13:09:02 <nortti> `run readlink -f wisdom/Ngevd
13:09:24 <Taneb> `run cat wisdom/Ngevd
13:09:25 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/Ngevd: No such file or directory
13:09:30 <Taneb> `run cat wisdom/ngevd
13:09:32 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
13:09:57 <HackEgo> is a shorthand for?? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:10:13 <Taneb> nortti, it used to work like that but it broke pastewisdom
13:10:24 <Phantom_Hoover> it used to be a symlink to /dev/urandom, but then people were dumb with it and it had to be special-cased
13:10:25 <oerjan> nortti: it _used_ to be an actual device file but that made it awkward to do things.
13:10:31 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ⊥ \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛
13:10:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/wisdom
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13:10:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/ls
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13:11:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^752129 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
13:11:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: presumably the inode changed again.
13:11:59 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ⊥ \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛
13:12:44 <oerjan> `run /bin/ls -id wisdom
13:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/b018e83c2886/wisdom
13:13:14 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/752129/969195/g' bin/ls
13:13:24 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
13:13:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//bin/l
13:13:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:13:49 <oerjan> it's not as necessary as it used to be, obviously.
13:13:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//bin/ls
13:15:01 <nortti> why is there a .swp file in hackenv?
13:15:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i doubt /bin/ls is a readable script. hm i guess the `paste file optimization doesn't deal well with files outside the repository.
13:15:22 <oerjan> nortti: someone ran vim maybe?
13:15:36 <oerjan> istr something like that.
13:15:46 <nortti> vim leaves _behind_ swap files?
13:16:01 <oerjan> nortti: when it errors out due to having no terminal, maybe?
13:16:48 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `*.swp': No such file or directory
13:16:51 <oerjan> nortti: that's sort of the point of having them in the first place, so you can restore after errors.
13:17:46 <nortti> it gets killed after a while
13:17:50 <oerjan> shikhin: files starting with . are excluded from expansions
13:17:52 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal \ [1;24r[?25h[?8c[?25h[?0c[27m[24m[0m[H[J[?25l[?1c[2;1H[1m[34m~ [3;1H~ [4;1H~
13:18:07 <shikhin> Took really long to figure that out, didn't it?
13:18:09 <oerjan> nortti: oh right it may just have been killed right.
13:18:17 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
13:18:29 <HackEgo> . \ .. \ bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ .hg \ .hg_archival.txt \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
13:18:44 <oerjan> hm seems no swap this time.
13:18:52 <HackEgo> no: ERROR: cannot open `no' (No such file or directory)
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13:21:49 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access .swp: No such file or directory
13:22:52 <HackEgo> ./ \ ../ \ bi \ bin/ \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints@ \ delvs* \ delvs-master/ \ dog \ etc/ \ factor/ \ .hg/ \ .hg_archival.txt \ ibin/ \ index.html \ interps/ \ lib/ \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ oerjan/ \ paste/ \ pref \ prefs \ quines/ \ quotes \ share/ \ src/ \ wisdom/ \ wisdom.pdf
13:22:57 <oerjan> nortti: i vaguely suspect there's a race condition between vim detecting no terminal and HackEgo timing out the process, so it only happens when HackEgo is strained? maybe.
13:23:13 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
13:23:33 <nortti> shows / for dirs, * for executables
13:23:58 <oerjan> `run diff oerjan/cat cat
13:24:15 <HackEgo> bash: delvs: command not found
13:25:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/delvs
13:25:35 <nortti> bah, can't read x86 machine lang
13:25:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ndisasm: not found
13:26:46 <nortti> `run readelf -s delvs | paste
13:26:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10305
13:27:31 <oerjan> `ls delvs-master/samples
13:27:33 <HackEgo> hi.bf \ hi-bool.bf \ multiply.bf \ readfile.bf \ writefile.bf \ writetonull.bf
13:27:43 <oerjan> i think it may be a bf interpreter
13:27:54 <shikhin> `./delvs delvs-master/hi.bf
13:27:56 <HackEgo> File: "delvs-master/hi.bf" not found
13:28:01 <nortti> I was just going to say "it might be interpreter, it has symbol called lexer"
13:28:17 <shikhin> `./delvs delvs-master/samples/hi.bf
13:28:23 <shikhin> `./delvs delvs-master/samples/hi-bool.bf
13:28:33 <nortti> `paste delvs-master/samples/hi-bool.bf
13:28:34 <shikhin> `./delvs delvs-master/samples/multiple.bf
13:28:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/delvs-master/samples/hi-bool.bf
13:28:35 <HackEgo> File: "delvs-master/samples/multiple.bf" not found
13:28:40 <shikhin> `./delvs delvs-master/samples/multiply.bf
13:29:04 <shikhin> `./delvs delvs-master/samples/multiply.bf 1 2
13:29:05 <HackEgo> File: "delvs-master/samples/multiply.bf 1 2" not found
13:29:13 <nortti> yhat doesn't seem much like brainfuck
13:29:24 <shikhin> `./delvs delvs-master/samples/writetonull.bf
13:29:46 <oerjan> presumably a derivative, then.
13:31:04 <nortti> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Delvs
13:31:06 <oerjan> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log?rev=delvs btw
13:31:14 <nortti> why did I not check this first
13:32:37 <nortti> `run tar txf master.tar.gz | paste
13:32:43 <HackEgo> tar: You may not specify more than one `-Acdtrux' or `--test-label' option \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information. \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13265
13:32:53 <nortti> `run tar tzf master.tar.gz | paste
13:32:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21268
13:33:17 <shikhin> `paste delvs-master/main.c
13:33:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/delvs-master/main.c
13:33:51 <shikhin> `paste delvs-master/delvs.h.c
13:33:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/delvs-master/delvs.h.c
13:34:02 <shikhin> `paste delvs-master/delvs.h
13:34:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/delvs-master/delvs.h
13:34:16 <nortti> shikhin: ffs, use github
13:34:34 <nortti> shikhin: https://github.com/L8D/delvs
13:35:06 <oerjan> shikhin: you can also use the web interface at http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ directly.
13:35:46 <oerjan> note how pasting a file just gives you the link to it there, and doesn't actually create a paste.
13:38:11 -!- Jafet has left.
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13:38:27 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
13:38:42 <oerjan> `run mv delvs-master share
13:38:46 <HackEgo> mv: cannot move `delvs-master' to `share/delvs-master': Directory not empty
13:39:04 <HackEgo> awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
13:39:22 <oerjan> `diff delvs-master share/delvs-master
13:39:24 <HackEgo> diff: missing operand after `delvs-master share/delvs-master' \ diff: Try `diff --help' for more information.
13:39:36 <oerjan> `run diff delvs-master share/delvs-master
13:39:37 <HackEgo> Only in delvs-master: bf.c \ Only in delvs-master: bf.h \ Only in delvs-master: delvs \ Only in delvs-master: delvs.h \ Only in delvs-master: delvs.rb \ Only in delvs-master: .gitignore \ Only in delvs-master: main.c \ Only in delvs-master: Makefile \ Only in delvs-master: README.md \ Common subdirectories: delvs-master/samples and share/delvs-mast
13:40:03 <oerjan> `rm -R share/delvs-master
13:40:04 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
13:40:09 <oerjan> `run rm -R share/delvs-master
13:40:17 <oerjan> `run mv delvs-master share
13:40:21 <HackEgo> mv: cannot move `delvs-master' to `share/delvs-master': Directory not empty
13:40:36 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master
13:40:44 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master/samples
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13:41:04 <oerjan> `rmdir share/delvs-master/samples
13:41:11 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master/samples
13:41:12 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access share/delvs-master/samples: No such file or directory
13:41:24 <oerjan> `rmdir share/delvs-master
13:41:30 <oerjan> `run mv delvs-master share
13:41:34 <HackEgo> mv: cannot move `delvs-master' to `share/delvs-master': Directory not empty
13:41:44 <oerjan> WHAT THE H* IS GOING ON
13:41:57 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master
13:42:06 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master/samples
13:43:04 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master/samples
13:43:16 <boily> Jafet: what is an arisdottle?
13:43:27 <oerjan> `run mv share/delvs-master AAA
13:43:34 <HackEgo> awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
13:43:40 <HackEgo> awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
13:43:47 <oerjan> `run mv delvs-master share
13:43:52 <HackEgo> mv: cannot move `delvs-master' to `share/delvs-master': Directory not empty
13:43:53 <Jafet> Apparently it is perl for the :: operator.
13:44:10 <oerjan> ok there's something ridiculous here.
13:44:22 <boily> Jafet: like the infamous paamayim nekudotayim?
13:44:30 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master
13:44:35 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master/samples
13:45:08 <HackEgo> AAA \ bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
13:45:42 <Jafet> That is hebrew for we don't speak english motherfucker.
13:45:55 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
13:46:07 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
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13:46:27 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
13:46:40 <Taneb> I never realised this was a Daft Punk song
13:46:49 <Taneb> Even though there is pretty much no-one else it could be
13:47:10 <oerjan> `run rm -R share/delvs-master; mv delvs-master share
13:48:12 <oerjan> @tell gregor PLZ FIX REMOVAL OF EMPTY DIRECTORIES IN HACKEGO THX
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13:51:39 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
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13:52:11 <oerjan> `ls share/delvs-master/samples
13:52:13 <HackEgo> hi.bf \ hi-bool.bf \ multiply.bf \ readfile.bf \ writefile.bf \ writetonull.bf
13:52:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:52:37 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `delvs bin' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
13:53:14 <boily> oerjan: who manages the script that unhthifies you?
13:53:24 <oerjan> boily: elliott made it.
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13:54:03 <boily> elliott: can you add thx to the unørjanable three-letter-acronyms?
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13:54:42 <oerjan> i use it _once_ and you want to remove it, sheesh
13:56:52 <boily> beuh... it only was for science. I'd have asked him to reput it back again afterwards...
13:57:44 <oerjan> you realize i have to manually install it, right?
14:04:59 <Taneb> Installing the diagrams library on an RPi takes a while
14:06:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, template haskell doesn't, and GHCi doesn't
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14:08:39 <oerjan> Taneb: happy hackage 2 day!
14:09:31 <Taneb> On another note entirely, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is out in the US but not the UK :(
14:11:31 <oerjan> Taneb: you don't happen to have S.H.I.E.L.D. comics do you? i have a long-standing wikipedia correction that i cannot do because no one ever answered me about whether they _really_ misspelled Isaac Newton in the comics.
14:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, don't worry, it'll be cancelled before it makes it here
14:12:09 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, by 8PM Friday?
14:12:13 <Taneb> oerjan, no I don't
14:12:25 <Taneb> I have precisely two Marvel comics
14:13:03 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, he brought a character back to life so maybe it will be uncancelled
14:13:41 <oerjan> ooh wait someone has answered!
14:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "New York Times' Brooks Barnes [...] added that "what goes over well at Comic-Con does not necessarily work in the real world,""
14:14:49 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, next you'll tell me I can't turn up to lectures in my Wonder Woman cosplay
14:16:49 -!- conehead has joined.
14:18:03 <Taneb> (so in a weird way you did not forget at all)
14:25:09 <oerjan> Taneb: not without uploading to youtube you can't!
14:25:43 <oerjan> wait is that a double negative or not. maybe triple.
14:26:59 <boily> oerjan: quadruple negative: “not”, “without”, “youtube” and “can't”.
14:36:53 <boily> you shouldn't never underestimate the negative absence of the negations that are not there.
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15:16:21 <boily> is that a stealth hello with my name?
15:17:33 <Jafet> boily boily boily, boily boily.
15:22:09 <fizzie> "Heily borld!" is a typical first program in a programming language.
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15:26:43 <asie> I'm having trouble picking a CPU architecture (or simple programming language implemented as a CPU) for a Minecraft computing mod
15:27:42 <asie> boily: i've always been fond of the 6502
15:27:47 <asie> but it feels boring, stale and just wrong in many aspects
15:27:54 <asie> the z80 is better but i've never really got into the z80
15:28:17 <boily> there's a first time to everything ☺
15:28:23 <asie> as in i tried it
15:28:28 <asie> but i didn't really like it
15:28:34 <asie> i was considering going custom but it's hard to make a fake CPU arch
15:29:03 <boily> motorola 68k? mips? some horrendous CISC architecture?
15:29:58 <boily> (not x86. it doesn't even count as an architecture. more like a chaotic borg cube that happens to be cube shaped, but entirely by accident.)
15:32:06 <Jafet> You should work out the minecraft laws of physics and design an architecture around it.
15:32:16 <asie> Jafet: the only rule is sand falls
15:32:32 <Jafet> How far can you miniaturize it? Will tunneling become a barrier?
15:34:26 <asie> Phantom_Hoover: it can't be too minimalist
15:34:33 <asie> because it can't run too slow in practice
15:34:37 <asie> so subleq/BF-level stuff is out
15:34:45 <asie> befunge could be interesting
15:35:41 <asie> or perhaps a minor iteration on ARMv2?
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15:37:41 <asie> redcode isn't a half-bad idea
15:38:07 <Jafet> Anything involving RAM is not going to work.
15:38:40 <asie> Jafet: It's amod
15:38:55 <asie> It's a mod, so I can implement anything I want
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15:39:56 <asie> Phantom_Hoover: tons of pistons
15:40:12 <asie> since a few MC versions ago, some blocks send a redstone signal through and some don't
15:40:25 <asie> that's your tape
15:40:40 <asie> do it in a magnetic way
15:40:47 <asie> always have both dirt and glass
15:40:51 <asie> and just swap their order
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15:41:26 <Phantom_Hoover> moving the tape was the problem, but now i'm wondering if you could use back-to-back piston shuttles at each end
15:41:28 <boily> can you mux signals on a redstone wire?
15:41:37 <asie> Phantom_Hoover: the max length is 16, i think
15:41:40 <asie> boily: with redlogic yes
15:41:53 <asie> Phantom_Hoover: so you can have a 63-length tape by making a 16x16 square
15:42:02 <asie> and just pushing it through on all 4 corners every time
15:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> asie, for the purposes of the exercise i'm assuming it's infinite
15:42:32 <asie> Phantom_Hoover: an INFINITE piston tape, now...
15:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> also: you could divide the tape into... 12-cell chunks, with pistons at each end
15:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> well you know how if you have two sticky pistons with their faces pointed together they can be moved by extending them in turn
15:49:23 <Phantom_Hoover> the basic idea is to have 'carriages' of those, with wires at the side controlling their movement
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15:49:58 <Phantom_Hoover> and then you line a bunch of them up to get past the 16-block limit on pistons
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18:30:42 <boily> hm. I ordered a keyboard this morning. a few hours later, I get a reply from paypal and the site that my order's been cancelled and refunded.
18:30:58 <boily> apparently, I managed to order an out of production, out of stock keyboard.
18:33:36 <olsner> maybe you can get a used keyboard of the same kind?
18:36:56 -!- yorick has joined.
18:38:20 <boily> olsner: bah. I ordered the new generation, the one that the support guy positively asserted that is in stock and exists.
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19:34:32 <metasepia> Your divination: "Prospering" to "Obstruction"
19:34:49 <boily> obstruction indeed. been struggling with database integrity errors the whole day.
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19:39:14 <fizzie> I thought the whole point about a (relational) database is that you don't have to. :p
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19:40:15 <kmc> http://howfuckedismydatabase.com/
19:41:14 <boily> «You're probably okay.»
19:41:41 <kmc> so you aren't using MySQL then
19:42:04 <olsner> apparently my database is "Probably pretty fucked."
19:42:59 <fizzie> I like the error messages.
19:43:18 <fizzie> (My irclog database is probably okay.)
19:45:51 <boily> kmc: OpenERP only runs on Postgres. which is a strangely sane choice, considering the rest of the framework can make you become schizophreniac.
19:46:05 <kmc> erp erp erp erp erp
19:46:06 <olsner> boily: maybe it bundles MySQL for the other database
19:47:11 <boily> olsner: afaik, you are right.
19:47:46 <Fiora> http://howfuckedismydistro.com/gentoo/ I um pffffff
19:48:05 <Bike> i see only darkness
19:49:31 <Bike> needs -funroll-loops for speed
19:50:01 <boily> it's. I... I can't describe that. there is green text impacting my optical nerves. I feeel uneasy. I give you a hamburger.
19:50:24 <fizzie> I skipped to the end. :/
19:50:32 <boily> Fiora: are you on gentoo?
19:50:38 <Bike> "Okay, you're just fucked."
19:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> oh i think i 'get' it in the sense that i see the joke too late to find it funny
19:54:06 <Gregor> I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of this site.
19:54:09 <Gregor> It might be a joke of some kind.
19:54:14 <Gregor> Alternately, it might not.
19:54:29 <Gregor> oerjan said 6h 6m 6s ago: PLZ FIX REMOVAL OF EMPTY DIRECTORIES IN HACKEGO THX // No.
19:54:45 <Bike> In this handy, compact guide, you’ll explore a ton of powerful Ubuntu Linux commands while you learn to use Ubuntu Linux as the experts do: from the command line. Try out more than 1,000 commands to find and get software, monitor system health and security, and access network resources. Then, apply the skills you learn from this book to use and administer desktops and servers running Ubuntu, Debian, and KNOPPIX or any other Linux distribution.
19:55:48 <Bike> there's no arch page ;_;
19:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, it benefits from seeing the rest of the site first
19:56:10 <Bike> it's only ubuntu, debian, gentoo, and redhat, it seems
19:56:11 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, I poked around a bit.
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20:00:58 <boily> nooooobyd, the Evil Cousin with a Goatee of Nooodl?
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20:07:58 <boily> elliott: stop bullying people, even if you are bringing them on the Bright Path of the Best Distro doing so.
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20:22:22 <boily> for completely unknown and mysterious reasons, wikipedians saw fit to put the pronounciation for the local variations on “that's greek to me” → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me
20:26:01 <Bike> interesting use of "pronunciation" there boily
20:26:53 <Bike> oh, i thought they meant the different phrases
20:27:50 <Bike> i like fish-egg language
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20:28:45 <kmc> did somebody put together the graph of the languages here
20:29:58 <boily> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/graph2.png ← someone did.
20:30:06 <Bike> I'd feel bad about conflating "Chinese" and Mandarin, or "Greek" and- well, great.
20:30:07 <boily> (well. for the mainest languages)
20:30:08 <kmc> <3 languagelog forever
20:31:02 <fizzie> Which graph is that graph?
20:31:22 <Bike> the graph of languages using one another as idiomatically incomprehensible
20:31:40 <Bike> kind of wondering about aramaic, i didn't know it was common enough for people to think about
20:31:50 <Bike> like, within the last two thousand years, i mean
20:31:55 <boily> there doesn't seem to be much progress lately on xkcd's beanish :(
20:32:06 <kmc> i blame the bible
20:32:08 <kmc> for aramaic I mean
20:32:13 <fizzie> Also also: non-planar representations of planar graphs are nasty.
20:32:13 <boily> Bike: everybody speaks aramaic. fsvo speaks.
20:32:17 <kmc> I don't know what xkcd whatever is and I'm not sure if I can blame the bible or not
20:32:20 <Bike> for some, non-speaks value of speaks
20:32:45 <nooodl> romanian -> turkish -> french -> hebrew -> chinese -> heavenly script
20:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was... idk, some kind of language fascist thing
20:33:12 <Bike> i have a chinese novel that has some heavenly script in it. unfortunately the novel is too hard for me to read
20:33:15 <Bike> thought what was?
20:33:33 <olsner> hmm, Hindi is missing a link... is it Chinese? is it Heavenly script? is it Greek?
20:33:44 <Bike> maybe sanskrit?
20:34:01 <Bike> that would be reasonably closely analogous to greek, at least
20:34:02 <olsner> also somewhat disappointed about the lack of loops
20:34:41 <Bike> india has like a billion languages and all though, maybe they ust pick the language of a random province
20:34:49 <Bike> it's all kannada to me
20:35:07 <Bike> it's all sindhalese to me
20:37:17 <Bike> boily: it's spoken in karnataka. having the languages and provinces have the same names or even geographical areas would be way too simple.
20:37:33 <Bike> oh, that's where mysore was, neat
20:37:58 <olsner> maybe they could just use "indian" as the gibberish language
20:38:09 <olsner> there should be at least slightly fewer than a billion indian languages anyone doesn't speak
20:38:10 <kmc> nobody uses 'english' do they :/
20:38:44 <Bike> i dunno olsner, where i live analogous terms like "American" "Mexican" or "Canadian" are only used to imply that you're an idiot
20:40:00 <fizzie> Nobody uses Finnish either, even though (for some strange reason) it's often used as a prototypical hard-to-learn language.
20:40:15 <Bike> in my imaginary world it's because people notice it's not IE.
20:41:26 <boily> fizzie: probably because Hungarian holds the spotlight when people think about difficult to learn finno-ugric languages.
20:41:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:42:25 <boily> that reminds me I still have to learn Estonian.
20:42:36 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
20:42:40 <olsner> I believe one of the words for gibberish in swedish is cognate with 'welsh'
20:42:49 <fizzie> boily: But nobody's using Hungarian either.
20:43:24 <Bike> boily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDEI06J00nk hth.
20:43:34 <oerjan> Gregor: did you _see_ the mess i had earlier today trying to move a directory from top level to share/ ?
20:43:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: canary: not found
20:44:08 <HackEgo> bin`: POSIX shell script text executable
20:44:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bin`: not found
20:44:56 <oerjan> Gregor: but WHY (is it happening in the first place :( )
20:45:46 <Gregor> Because Mercurial doesn't support adding empty directories to the repository.
20:45:54 <boily> Bike: what is that mysteriõus thing...
20:46:10 <oerjan> Gregor: i'm not talking about adding them, but removing.
20:46:37 <Gregor> oerjan: All of the transactional file behavior is based on hg changes.
20:46:47 <Gregor> Since it doesn't recognize the removal of a directory as a change, it doesn't know that anything has been done.
20:47:41 <boily> Bike: his eyes. they disturb me.
20:48:30 <oerjan> Gregor: when HackEgo runs a command, does it get an entirely new copy of the file structure to run in?
20:48:44 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
20:49:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
20:50:16 <oerjan> Gregor: it was completely ridiculous btw, i removed the directory and ls in a later command shows it as not being there; but when i try to move the new version into there it breaks down claiming the spot's already occupied.
20:50:35 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:50:59 <oerjan> Gregor: the only thing that worked was removing the old directory and moving to it in the same command.
20:51:52 <Gregor> I know it's confusing, but it's not easy to fix and not a common enough problem for me to care.
20:55:22 <oerjan> argh my back starts acting up as soon as i sit down with the laptop :(
20:55:56 <oerjan> been that way since monday morning or so.
20:56:22 -!- Bike has joined.
20:56:28 <olsner> pretty much any way of sitting with a laptop is bad for the back
20:57:00 <Bike> Gregor: are codu pretty logs still broked?
20:57:19 <Bike> boily: it's an estonian cartoon, obviously. one i like.
20:57:31 <Bike> apparently this aired on tv for children to watch at least once!
20:58:08 <boily> I sent it to a coworker. he likes it.
20:58:16 <Bike> damn straight he does.
20:59:16 <Bike> (real) soviet cartoons are way better than worker and parasite.
20:59:27 <Bike> they do look about as freaky at times, tho.
21:02:10 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I prefer cow orkers, but only in fiction.
21:05:09 <olsner> cow orker is one of my favorite puns
21:07:13 <Vorpal> Huh that was strange, doing ls on the NFS mount was out of sync compared to doing ls on the ssh session. This lasted for about half a minute until the NFS mount caught up as it were.
21:07:29 <Vorpal> I didn't even know NFS could return a stale state, I thought it would block
21:08:07 <kmc> NFS ate my balls
21:09:00 <boily> `? things NFS can do
21:09:02 <HackEgo> things NFS can do? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:10:43 <oerjan> boily: Phantom_Hoover got myndzi to ignore HackEgo.
21:11:01 <oerjan> he got fed up with precisely that figure.
21:11:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i recall _someone_ did, and you're the kind of person who might.
21:14:21 <kmc> if Foo is a struct do you think one should be able to assign to fields of Foo through pattern matching,. i.e. (foo.x, foo.y) = f();
21:15:14 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KdCj <- NFS can.
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21:15:40 <boily> kmc: Foo <$> f, but I have this feeling you're talking about Rust.
21:16:12 <boily> “nfs can do virtually everything. but it isn't specified”
21:16:18 <Bike> that's not really assignment...
21:16:43 <oerjan> boily: i don't think Foo <$> f works if f returns a pair.
21:17:12 <Bike> fizzie has been an adbot this entire time
21:17:13 <boily> oerjan: there are some fuzzy-tuple-y details that my tired brain can't figure out at the moment.
21:17:28 <oerjan> boily: try eating some curry
21:17:37 <Bike> "nfs can do virtually everything. but it isn't specified" this is good.
21:17:41 <boily> oerjan: only on Tuesday nights, after the movies.
21:17:51 <boily> fizzie: other people talk about salmiakki?
21:18:06 <Bike> kmc: is there an argument against doing it?
21:18:19 <kmc> I'm talking about Rust and other related languages
21:18:35 <kmc> anything with structures with named fields, assignment, and destructuring / pattern-matching
21:18:45 <kmc> I mean Python allows this, but it doesn't really have a distinction between assignment and declaration
21:19:57 <ais523> does anyone happen to know offhand if the following is possible on Windows: create a DLL that has undefined symbols that are linked in from the process that includes it?
21:19:58 <fizzie> boily: <[REDACTED Finnish person on a different channel]> btw, i can bring you mämmi and salmiakki from finland.
21:20:20 <olsner> hmm, mämmi, we get that in shops here sometimes... what the heck is it?
21:20:22 <ais523> this works just fine on Linux
21:20:31 <ais523> but I'm not sure how to do it on Windows, or even if it's possible
21:20:42 <ais523> (context: porting a program which does this from Linux to Windows)
21:20:44 <boily> AAAAURGH! for the one legitimate use of ~duck, I get no infos.
21:21:08 <Bike> like, the dll uses the symbols, which are resolved at link time by the program...?
21:21:31 <ais523> Bike: yeah, basically program X includes DLL Y; X has a global variable, Y can read from and write to that variable
21:21:49 <olsner> not sure if the linker can do it automatically, but I'm pretty sure a DLL can get the handle of the process that linked it and resolve symbols manually that way
21:22:10 <ais523> olsner: well on Linux it just works, even without attributes or special compiler options
21:22:29 <ais523> on mingw it doesn't, the linker complains about unresolved symbols when building the DLL
21:22:32 <metasepia> Mmmi is a traditional Finnish Easter dessert.
21:22:37 <oerjan> Oi mämmi, Suomi, synnyinmaa
21:22:56 <fizzie> oerjan: You made a laugh appear.
21:23:09 <ais523> and none of the options that should tell it to just go with it seem to have any effect
21:23:39 <Bike> "Anyone who has watched cuttlefish will know that if there was ever an animal that wears its heart on its sleeve, it is Sepia." :3
21:25:11 <ais523> meanwhile, aimake currently crashes mingw ld
21:25:26 <ais523> you just get the dialog box popping up telling you that ld crashed
21:25:43 <olsner> it crashes after finishing the output file?
21:25:54 <ais523> olsner: well I'm running under -t to try to locate the system libraries
21:26:18 <ais523> however, the system libraries are static libraries, thus they won't normally be mentioned unless at least one symbol in them is referenced
21:26:29 <ais523> so my solution was to use --whole-archive to tell it to just link the whole thing
21:26:32 <boily> Bike, kmc: I'm watching you. any attempt at eating my bot will result to your extradition to Canada. in winter.
21:27:18 <Bike> why does metasepia even have a shirt
21:28:07 <ais523> anyway, my DLL reverse export problem has quite a lot of freedom
21:28:17 <oerjan> the Great Preposition Shift
21:28:37 <ais523> I'm allowed (allowing myself) to assume mingw gcc, mingw ld, and can put arbitrary attributes on the variables in question, at both the importing and exporting sites
21:29:12 <olsner> is the variable dllimport:ed when building Y?
21:29:28 <ais523> atm I'm putting a dllimport on it
21:29:37 <ais523> because it seems unlikely to work if I don't
21:29:39 <ais523> however, it doesn't work anyway
21:29:51 <ais523> (it just changes whether the linker contains about a missing "variable" or "__imp_variable")
21:30:12 <olsner> hmm, yes, that would need to work for it to work with that alone
21:30:13 <oerjan> ais523: so is this also a step to making nethack4 work on windows
21:30:18 <ais523> oerjan: yes, how did you guess?
21:30:35 <fizzie> ais523: Have you tried making a "fake" DLL that defines all those symbols, then an import library for that, and then use that when linking the DLL? (Disclaimer: probably won't work.)
21:30:39 <ais523> actually I could just statically link everything, but I'm trying to keep the nitrohack code as originally intended
21:30:50 <oerjan> ais523: i've been stalking you on reddit.
21:30:59 <ais523> fizzie: if you're going to that much effort you could just put the variable in a DLL of its own, and import it in both places
21:31:18 <olsner> I've always wondered what the import libraries are for on windows, maybe you need one of those for the executable's exports and link it into the dll
21:31:22 <ais523> which is something I'm considering for if it's impossible to do it the intended ways
21:31:41 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, I sort of assumed you can't change the program.
21:31:46 <ais523> olsner: that would require each of the executable and DLL to be built before the other
21:31:53 <ais523> fizzie: well I'm trying to get aimake to do this automatically
21:32:00 <ais523> it can't change the program in anything other than very simple, mechanical ways
21:32:40 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:32:46 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:32:50 <ais523> like, nothing requiring strong AI, please
21:32:55 <ais523> Snowflake was bad enough ;)
21:33:30 <olsner> perhaps the problem is that --no-undefined is default on windows and you need to disable it
21:33:58 <ais523> olsner: I was wondering about that
21:34:08 <ais523> the problem is that it doesn't seem to have an opposite
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21:34:14 <ais523> I haven't tried --no-no-undefined yet, I guess
21:34:20 <ais523> (--undefined means something entirely different)
21:39:52 <oerjan> http://www.sourceware.org/autobook/autobook/autobook_88.html "Unfortunately, there are some architectures (notably AIX and Windows) which require that all symbols are resolved when the library is linked."
21:40:34 <fizzie> ais523: MSVC has a "delayed loading" feature which essentially makes the linker include LoadLibrary/GetProcAddress code to do the linking at first call/use. Something along those lines might work, but I don't think MinGW includes a similar feature.
21:40:35 <Taneb> My plan to run diagrams on an RPi has hit a flaw
21:40:53 <ais523> now, I guess my big moral question is, should I remove the (already-working) reverse import feature on Linux, on the basis that it makes programs less portable?
21:42:14 <Taneb> oerjan, no, I got past that
21:42:22 <Taneb> It's gtk taking aaaages to compile
21:43:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Haskell library for drawing pretty pictures
21:43:51 <kmc> it's pretty great
21:43:52 <fizzie> Huh, mingw-w64 in fact does support delay-loaded libs. But it does not seem immediately useful for your use case, it's just a dlltool option that can make an import library that does the delay-loading.
21:45:06 <myname> wait, you can make diagrams in haskell?
21:45:17 <fizzie> "-add-indirect: Specifies that when dlltool is creating the exports file it should add a section which allows the exported functions to be referenced without using the import library. Whatever the hell that means!" (dlltool manual)
21:45:23 <kmc> http://projects.haskell.org/diagrams/gallery.html
21:46:31 <Taneb> I think I'll just leave it running overnight
21:47:13 <ais523> fizzie: mingw can link to DLLs directly without going through the import library
21:47:18 <fizzie> Taneb: You could cross-compile your things on a Real Computer. (And AIUI you can get a Real Computer with a nickel.)
21:47:37 <Taneb> fizzie, but that takes eeeeffooort
21:47:40 <ais523> presumably, on the basis that it's possible to mechanically create an import library from a DLL, so the linker may as well do that itself
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21:50:47 <ais523> bleh, why don't domain names tab-complete
21:51:05 <fizzie> ais523: Anyhow, you can (at least in theory) make an import library for the executable before linking it, by constructing a .def file containing the exported symbols and then processing that with dlltool. Then you might attempt to link the DLL against that, and the executable against the DLL.
21:51:28 <ais523> I doubt it would work due to loading order
21:51:30 <fizzie> I wouldn't rank the chances of that working terribly high, but you never know.
21:52:35 <ais523> hmm, someone's been trying to access pages like /admin.php on my server
21:52:38 <ais523> I don't even have PHP installed!
21:52:56 <ais523> I guess this is what drive-by attacks against webservers look like
21:53:03 <oerjan> <-- "beanish" is what xkcd forumers call the invented language in xkcd's "time" story.
21:53:24 <oerjan> ais523: no, just forgot to include kmc's quote :P
21:53:58 <kmc> ais523: yeah if you run a webserver on a public IP you will get loads of that kind of thing
21:54:09 <kmc> if you run a SSH server on a public IP you will get a lot of password guessing attempts
21:54:18 <kmc> imo don't put a SSH server on the public internet if it accepts passowrds at all
21:55:18 <ais523> kmc: I have fail2ban installed
21:55:33 <ais523> also a username that's unlikely to be guessed without human interaction, and a non-dictionary password
21:55:55 <ais523> those drive-by ssh attacks don't catch anyone even slightly competent, they just spam the logs
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21:59:22 <fizzie> ais523: Heh. The procedure I described is able to generate an executable. Sadly, I don't have a Wine installation or a Windows VM or a running Windows box handy at the moment, so I don't know what it'd say when trying to run that file.
22:00:36 <ais523> but I'll try it some time just to see what happens
22:00:40 <ais523> assuming I even have dlltool installed
22:00:44 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> I am at kannada. <-- ಠ_ಠ
22:01:05 <fizzie> ais523: http://sprunge.us/JNPg is what I did, for the record.
22:02:07 <ais523> I'm not surprised it links; I'd think it has a very high chance of linking
22:02:15 <ais523> you told the DLL that it'd be getting the variable from another DLL, so it linked
22:02:19 <fizzie> Hmm. " : No such file or directory", is what Wine at work says.
22:02:25 <ais523> and you told the executable that it'd be linking to the DLL, so it's fine too
22:03:33 <fizzie> Though it seems to say that for everything, perhaps a non-worky Wine install.
22:04:06 <fizzie> Oh, an old broken ~/.wine symlink.
22:04:08 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:04:47 -!- conehead has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
22:04:51 <oerjan> `run unicode 'KANNADA LETTER TTHA'; unicode 'LOW LINE'; unicode 'KANNADA LETTER TTHA'
22:05:11 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~/tmp/ww]$ wine ./app.exe
22:05:11 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~/tmp/ww]$ echo $?
22:05:30 <HackEgo> 603) <ais523> Just about all females often feel that exactly why all Hollywood stars common maintain its brightness as Tom in spite of frantic operate routine and large operate pressure from the skin. What do you think that they have got sufficient time to observe all attractiveness strategies and tips that his grandmother utilized to abide by? \ 7
22:05:38 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: not tested on an actual Windows system.)
22:05:41 <ais523> oerjan: it was a spambot
22:05:41 <HackEgo> 1018) <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
22:05:45 <kmc> I love that apps in Wine can make native Linux syscalls too
22:05:50 <ais523> that I quoted in-channel
22:06:09 <ais523> oerjan: I thought it was particularly amusing spam
22:06:11 <kmc> it makes me want to write Linux malware that masquerades as a Windows game
22:06:13 <ais523> so I pasted it in the channel
22:06:27 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: why shouldn't I love inevitable things
22:06:30 <ais523> kmc: neat, you could make it Windows malware too
22:06:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's not what you'd expect if you (wrongly) believed wine is a full "emulator"
22:07:09 <ais523> elliott: Hourglass has similar issues, of spilling out to the surrounding system
22:07:20 <ais523> Web of Lies attempts to deal with the issue via sandboxing as well as syscall translation
22:07:28 <Fiora> I wonder if JITs in any actual emulators have vulnerabilities/code execution issues
22:07:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i admittedly only 'got' it when hanging around with microcosm
22:07:41 <ais523> think web of lies but for Windows, even less reliable, but less insane
22:07:47 <ais523> it's not mine, nitsuja wrote it
22:08:03 <ais523> Fiora: I doubt it's impossible
22:08:08 <mnoqy> that';s the thing used in the windows game TASes right
22:08:18 <kmc> I spent some time looking for bugs in dosbox
22:08:19 <ais523> as in, it's probably happened somewhere
22:08:24 <kmc> it's easy to make it deref a null pointer and crash
22:08:28 <fizzie> ais523: Incidentally, the concept of using a .DEF file to handle circular dependencies within DLLs is documented in MSDN: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/kkt2hd12%28v=VS.90%29.aspx
22:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> so like you can change the syscalls in the kernel, right?
22:08:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/unicode
22:08:47 <fizzie> ais523: I suppose the case of the program and DLL is not very far from two DLLs depending on each other, really.
22:08:55 <fizzie> (So maybe it'd work outside Wine too.)
22:09:18 <oerjan> `run unicode 'KANNADA LETTER TTHA' 'LOW LINE' 'KANNADA LETTER TTHA'
22:09:30 <ais523> fizzie: it even mentions it works for an executable an library that depend on each other
22:09:35 <ais523> so I guess this is what I will have to make aimake do
22:09:43 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, I didn't read it all that closely.
22:10:02 <oerjan> darn i should have @told boily that instead.
22:10:13 <mnoqy> `run unicode 'SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW'
22:11:39 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:11:43 <kmc> kannada oh kannada i never was your son
22:12:22 <kmc> `run unicode
22:13:29 <kmc> `run unicode 'LATIN SMALL LETTER F' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER U' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER N' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER G' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER U' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER T'
22:13:38 <kmc> `run unicode 'LATIN SMALL LETTER F' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER U' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER N' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER G' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER O' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER T'
22:13:47 <kmc> but fungot ignores HackEgo doesn't it...
22:13:47 <fungot> kmc: pro. but loue first learned in a ladies lappe, and decke the temples of mars, whose spirit in you fnord the bringer out of the bloody fingers of thy foes.
22:13:56 <mnoqy> `run unicode rm -rf /
22:13:58 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'rm'"
22:14:04 <kmc> mnoqy: nice 1
22:14:25 <coppro> `run unicode 'PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET'
22:14:40 <oerjan> kmc: more importantly, HackEgo adds the initial zero-width space.
22:14:57 <coppro> `run unicode 'PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL LEFT WHITE LENTICULAR BRACKET'
22:15:03 <coppro> those are backwards :/
22:15:08 <oerjan> oh hm i guess that wouldn't affect babbling.
22:16:17 <oerjan> coppro: i dunno they look identical to me
22:18:35 <myname> interesting, these brackets seem to make irssi glitch
22:20:03 <oerjan> i didn't notice any glitch. although sometimes i see fanciful unicode take a while to appear, but i guess that's on the font lookup end of putty?
22:20:37 <myname> 00:164:50<scoppro 4hmm what
22:21:06 <oerjan> ok, i didn't see that, also my own message got in between.
22:21:52 <oerjan> hm i guess tmux would neutralize ^L ...
22:22:08 <myname> yeah, ^L fixes that, but it reappears if i change windows
22:22:24 <fizzie> There's always /clear.
22:22:26 <oerjan> oh well everything i s bugy
22:22:30 <coppro> oerjan: the right one is concave down on my irssi
22:23:07 <coppro> but it's supposed to be concave up
22:23:13 <coppro> and the opposite is true for the left
22:23:19 * coppro tries to figure what font that is
22:23:23 * oerjan checks logs with browser, oh so that is how it's supposed to look.
22:24:02 <oerjan> i just see a narrow rectangle in irssi/putty.
22:24:15 <coppro> myname: the right brakcet is concave up?
22:24:35 <oerjan> which is identical for the two, but not the same as the usual "unknown character".
22:32:56 <kmc> `unicode REPLACEMENT CHARACTER
22:33:38 <kmc> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-September/005678.html ASCII control characters STX and ETX make great string literal delimeters for a programming language, right?
22:36:51 <ais523> well, at least it's not an argument about comment syntax
22:36:59 <kmc> yeah it's about string literal syntax
22:37:06 <ais523> I know, reading it now
22:37:15 <kmc> the two are weirdly related though
22:37:37 <ais523> fun fact: a bug in the NHGPL made me have to change the text tile format parser, just so I could add comments to the files specifying that I'd changed them
22:37:49 <kmc> traditionally comments and strings are the two constructs which let you suspend the normal lexical rules of the language for an arbitrary span of characters
22:37:54 <kmc> and they interact in weird ways
22:37:56 <ais523> actually the NHGPL doesn't really make much sense in the context of DVCSes
22:38:49 <ais523> anyway, I'm pretty sure that the NetHack devteam aren't following it to the letter
22:39:23 <ais523> so I'm just trying to follow it as best I can, and if they sue me over it, I'll claim I was following it more precisely than they were, and the way they were acting gave me the impression that they considered that interpretation of the NHGPL acceptable
22:40:48 <oerjan> is the bug that change notices have to be in the same file?
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22:43:15 <kmc> think i might be the only person left on earth who ever has a browser window that isn't full screen
22:43:20 <kmc> judging by trends in web design
22:43:24 <ais523> kmc: I do sometimes, but I normally fullscreen it
22:43:57 <Koen__> oerjan: I remember I asked you that once before, but is 3-cell brainfuck still turing-complete if we replace > and < with naming the cells?
22:43:58 <oerjan> kmc: no me too, because i like to be able to see if there's irc activity behind it
22:44:15 <Koen__> (so basically, forbid unmatched > and < in the brainfuck program)
22:44:40 <oerjan> Koen__: yes, the collatz function reduction doesn't use unmatched <>s
22:45:30 <Bike> i don't even have windows that aren't full screen `-`
22:46:06 <ais523> Bike: I tend to be quite consistent about which windows I fullscreen, and which I leave floating
22:46:29 <ais523> normally floating windows are things I use to amuse myself during long compiles, or else are always-on-topped things I want to keep an eye on
22:46:33 <oerjan> Koen__: i tried for quite a while to see if there was any way to _use_ unmatched >< to get around my problems before finding the collatz functions, but i couldn't think of anything it helped with when you just have 3 cells.
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22:46:41 <ais523> if I need to keep an eye on two things that fill the screen, I just alpha-blend them
22:46:47 <ais523> it's confusing but not impossible to read
22:47:06 <Koen__> it helps with making algorithms harder to predict :-)
22:47:07 <kmc> I like to have docs and code side by side
22:47:28 <oerjan> Koen__: also i still haven't found a way to split up the final integer produced for printing. :(
22:48:09 <Koen__> I'm not really sure I know how to look at the collatz sequences to consider them a programming language
22:48:10 <myname> https://github.com/mzeo/xslt-brainfuck because fuck you :D
22:48:54 <oerjan> Koen__: as in, i haven't found a way to compute arbitrary output with just 3 cells.
22:49:04 <oerjan> (as a function of input.)
22:51:44 <oerjan> Koen__: you just program in fractran and convert that to a collatz function.
22:53:58 <oerjan> and that again is essentially programming a minsky machine, except the registers are prime exponents and you need some flag bits or similar to control flow.
22:54:52 <oerjan> (the flag bits are also prime exponents)
22:55:54 <oerjan> and any non-IO using bf program without unmatched <> can be mechanically converted to a minsky machine.
22:56:56 <oerjan> (without unmatched <>, as you noted, you essentially have named cells, which is the same as minsky machine registers.)
22:57:32 <oerjan> oh hm i guess you want the bf program not to use negative numbers :)
22:57:50 <Koen__> I don't really care about negative numbers, I think
22:57:52 <oerjan> (or wrapping, naturally)
22:58:05 <Koen__> well wrapping in 3-cell brainfuck would mean the cells are bounded
22:58:10 <Koen__> that would be quite inconvenient
22:59:00 <ais523> what if it only wraps in one direction
22:59:02 <oerjan> indeed. btw i'm not saying you use 3-cell brainfuck to _start_ with, you can use an arbitrary bounded number of cells to reduce through the path of languages.
22:59:23 <Koen__> ais523: then that would make it irreversible!
22:59:58 <Koen__> then that would make it even less so
23:00:00 <oerjan> or you mean, impossible to undo in any way
23:00:13 <Koen__> yeah I know [-] is hard to undo
23:00:33 <oerjan> any way all bf mentions in the above are intended to have unbounded cells.
23:01:15 <Bike> bf implementation where incrementing a cell at its max value makes the increment spill into a random nearby cell
23:01:19 <Koen__> not sure what you meant with "btw i'm not saying you use 3-cell brainfuck to _start_ with, you can use an arbitrary bounded number of cells to reduce through the path of languages."
23:01:22 <ais523> hmm, what about we make it wrap from -1 to 0, 256 to 0, and include a "square" instruction
23:01:28 <oerjan> but as usual, two unbounded registers is enough to simulate a tape of bounded ones.
23:01:46 <ais523> so you can get vaues above 256
23:01:55 <Koen__> I think it's from -1 to 255?
23:02:28 <oerjan> Koen__: i mean what i've described can be used as unbounded n-cell bf -> n-register minsky machine -> fractran -> collatz function -> unbounded 3-cell bf
23:05:03 <oerjan> Koen__: psst he's slyly referring to another language with a fishy smell
23:05:31 <ais523> oerjan: we need a new featured language, really
23:05:53 <Koen__> oerjan: hmmmmm is that the new fisherman language?
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23:06:07 <oerjan> Koen__: are you being dense tcnh
23:06:10 <Koen__> also why do I have two _ in my name
23:06:23 <Koen__> I only had one this morning
23:06:29 <oerjan> (i didn't mean to misspell the acronyum but when i did i'll take advantage of it)
23:07:04 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:07:10 <oerjan> Koen__: because you pinged out at some point?
23:07:51 <Koen__> I would ping back in but I'm quite lazy
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23:24:02 <Phantom_Hoover> gah, the fucking bbc still won't air parks and rec season 3
23:24:36 <kmc> get a free trial EC2 VM in the US and proxy Hulu through it
23:24:42 <kmc> or you know, bittorrent
23:29:07 <kmc> imo move to sweden
23:30:15 <kmc> channeling malcolm tucker are we
23:30:35 <kmc> one of many BBC shows on Hulu :3
23:34:06 <Phantom_Hoover> can't wait for the tories to get around to gutting them
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23:34:51 <kmc> privatize the BBC and then buy it back later at a massive loss, just like the railroads
23:35:07 <kmc> actually I don't know if the govt took a loss on rail infrastructure or not
23:35:20 <kmc> but iirc they had to take over a lot of it because the trains kept crashing
23:35:43 <ais523> kmc: I actually did some work experience with Network Rail
23:36:02 <ais523> it's sort-of partly public, partly private, as far as I can tell
23:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if bbc scotland would split off if scotland became independent
23:36:35 <Bike> shouldn't it be sbc
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23:38:00 <ais523> well Scotland is still part of Britain, officially
23:38:05 <ais523> so the name's still accurate
23:38:09 <ais523> although a little weird
23:38:29 <ais523> it'd be like calling the BBC the "European Broadcasting Company Britain"
23:38:35 <Bike> "if scotland became independent"
23:39:13 <Phantom_Hoover> in that it implies that "EBC Britain" is part of or at least subordinate to the EBC
23:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how we're assuming 'britain' is a well-defined entity here, too
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23:57:04 <kmc> Provisional BBC, Real BBC
23:59:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well the island is well-defined
23:59:37 <ais523> apart from that, there's not that much in the way of precise definitions
23:59:58 <ais523> I guess the archipelago is also well-defined, even if there's a ridiculously long ongoing edit war on Wikipedia over what to call it
00:02:10 <Bike> "manx isle and environs"
00:03:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: "British and Irish Isles" seems to be a common choice
00:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> 'isle' and 'island' bear like no etymological relation
00:04:53 * ais523 hazards a guess that The Question is "What is The Question?"
00:08:07 <Phantom_Hoover> the question is "what is your mass and approximate coördinates"
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00:37:41 <oerjan> has a certain novelty to it
00:37:58 <HackEgo> naautore obeyogan mal jan sun lec mnesay fluvato impil nrneff stach cati bronster hnsta hairfy discherbra reat heaphtali moth mina
00:38:00 <oerjan> HackEgo: don't you mean yesod
00:38:22 <oerjan> obeyogan is what the people in turkey do when they support the government
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00:41:43 <Gregor> bronster (n): Any person who has ever used a portmanteau of "bro" and another word to greet or introduce a friend.
00:50:08 <Sgeo> `slist sb&hj 44
00:50:09 <HackEgo> slist sb&hj 44: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:03:45 <oerjan> seen on proggit http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1n260u/brainfuck_in_xslt_because_no_reason/
01:08:29 <Bike> http://quomodocumque.wordpress.com/2013/09/25/sorry-i-already-submitted-to-the-journal-of-surjections/ rad
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01:20:51 <elliott> Gregor: hey, you got linked from http://chneukirchen.org/trivium/.
01:25:06 * oerjan notices http://calvinanddune.tumblr.com/ on that page
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02:31:45 <Bike> http://kozmo.com/ I almost think this is satire
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03:48:47 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
03:49:39 <oklopol> "Phantom_Hoover said 19d 5h 44m 47s ago: say okokoko a bit in #esoteric so we can `addquote it" haha
04:05:41 <Sgeo> Does Agora still exist?
04:05:48 <Sgeo> Apparently there was a dictatorship scam recently
04:05:55 <Sgeo> And the dictator's a fool
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06:01:27 <Taneb> WHY DID I THINK IT'D BE A GOOD IDEA TO WATCH THE FINALE OF FREE! BEFORE BREAKFAST
06:02:49 <Taneb> For an anime about water, my response was appropriate
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06:04:36 <Taneb> There is water pooling on my face
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06:46:06 <fizzie> "FuNeSoMo" is such a silly project name.
06:46:25 <Taneb> Less silly than PubSubHubbub
06:46:29 <fizzie> (It's short for "Future Networks, Society and Modeling".
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10:58:08 <Taneb> I've just got rust-mode working on emacs!
11:08:26 <fizzie> Was that an amused laugh or an evil madman laugh?
11:11:13 <Taneb> I'm leaning towards the latter, fizzie
11:16:01 <HackEgo> olist 921: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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12:13:02 <boily> @tell oerjan I understood your reference to curry about 4 hours later after you said it.
12:15:06 <lambdabot> kmc says: "Haskell is great, because Curry-Howard! Proving things in the type system. We can prove that, uh, Ints exist, unless they're ⊥."
12:19:53 <boily> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/519581/how-google-converted-language-translation-into-a-problem-of-vector-space-mathematics/
12:21:07 <boily> @tell oerjan re your previous @message: ☺
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12:39:10 <Taneb> boily, that is an interesting article
12:47:26 <Koen__> do you know how hard it was for me not to tell YOU you were boring? :(
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12:52:53 <boily> Taneb: vector spaces... the final translation frontier...
12:52:58 <lambdabot> boily said 39m 56s ago: I understood your reference to curry about 4 hours later after you said it.
12:52:58 <lambdabot> boily said 31m 51s ago: re your previous @message: ☺
12:53:16 <oerjan> boily: JUST AS PLANNED
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12:57:31 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo Everybody seems to have been convinced that Fool's scam didn't work (ais523 made a massively reasoned judgement). Agora is in a bit of a lull, though, with all important Officers resigned.
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13:03:10 <oerjan> <fizzie> "FuNeSoMo" is such a silly project name. <-- it doesn't even seem to mean anything interesting in japanese. ("Also ship its" ?)
13:04:34 <Taneb> I also ship its OTP
13:05:55 <oerjan> there's probably someone somewhere making a business of shipping one time pads.
13:11:12 <boily> oerjan: I think Taneb was trope overdosing.
13:11:48 <oerjan> ok but i've forgot what OTP is.
13:12:22 -!- shikhin has joined.
13:12:31 <oerjan> google provided the one true meaning, though.
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13:16:13 <oerjan> probably, now i'm on tvtropes after all.
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13:20:19 <boily> oerjan: how many open tabs?
13:20:45 <oerjan> well i had 3 tvtropes tabs but now i'm down to one.
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13:30:56 <oerjan> (one of them is the same, though.)
13:33:46 <boily> what is the difference between a duck?
13:34:57 <oerjan> oh wait sorry, that's an elephant, not a duck.
13:37:23 <oerjan> "Unfortunately, half the time I tell this joke people miss the parody and ask "The difference between a duck and WHAT?" Whenever that happens I cry inside for humanity."
13:38:52 <oerjan> boily: how old do you speak french?
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13:41:28 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
13:41:49 <oerjan> we're getting so efficient.
13:45:45 <oerjan> whois looks like venezuela.
13:54:07 <boily> ottianna: about... 24 years, I guess, give or take a pregnancy.
13:54:23 <boily> s/ottianna/oerjan/
13:54:47 <boily> ottianna: ¿de qué país viene?
13:56:18 <boily> google translate nails it again. en:cumana becomes fr:cumana. yééééé...
13:56:32 <boily> ottianna: parles-tu français?
13:56:40 <oerjan> i think it's a city name
13:58:58 <boily> ottianna: nuestro traductor español regular es fuera del canal. estoy tratando de convencerlo de que venga aquí.
14:03:57 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
14:04:07 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fueue.c \ ul.emm
14:04:28 <Taneb> Hey, where's that main-as-a-value program stored?
14:04:43 -!- nooodl has joined.
14:05:10 <HackEgo> awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
14:05:25 <HackEgo> const short main[] = {18517,58761,49201,49801,49407,51081,3816,0,18432,27749,28524,8236,28535,27762,8548,24074,3762,1295,15536,-207,1295};
14:05:25 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
14:05:43 <boily> `translate from to en es my hovercraft is full of eels
14:05:48 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 5, in <module> \ print eval(sys.argv[1]).encode('utf-8') \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not subscriptable
14:06:02 <boily> `translate en es my hovercraft is full of eels
14:06:05 <oerjan> boily: the translate commands bit rotted ages ago.
14:06:05 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
14:06:07 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
14:06:14 <boily> oerjan: looks like so.
14:06:35 <oerjan> google's api changed, or something.
14:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> this seems like the kind of thing that's elliott's fault
14:06:51 <boily> oerjan: well, in fact, they obliterated it, iirc.
14:07:04 <boily> elliott: hogy hogy hogy.
14:09:33 <oerjan> `cat bin/translatefromto
14:09:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TEXT="$1" \ FROM=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ TO=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ if [ "$FROM" = "auto" ] ; then FROM="" ; fi \ \ curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate \ \ --data-urlenco
14:10:32 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1aecho "This google api no longer exists."; exit 1' bin/translatefromto
14:10:50 <HackEgo> This google api no longer exists.
14:11:54 <boily> ottianna: solamente si usted participa en la dominación mundial de los lenguajes de programación esotéricos.
14:13:16 <oerjan> ^ul ((EXTERMINAR! )S:^):^
14:13:16 <fungot> EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! ...too much output!
14:14:47 <Taneb> oerjan, who wrote the main-as-a-value program?
14:15:18 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't remember, search the logs?
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14:18:33 <oerjan> looks like Jafet http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log?rev=hello.c
14:19:21 <oerjan> with some help from fizzie.
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14:37:55 <Jafet> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log?rev=q.c
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14:45:54 <ottianna> jajajajajajjajajajjajajjajajajajajajjajajjajajajjaajjajaja
14:46:39 <ottianna> =-O:-*O:-) jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaajajajajjajaja
14:47:51 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: ton francés est doloroso.
14:52:36 <oerjan> e trur dokker e speinna gærn
14:53:39 <boily> ottianna: no es necesario entender lo que se dice aquí. todo puede suceder. tenga cuidado con las personas extrañas. diviértete con el ~duck.
14:54:09 <boily> oerjan: «ous croyons docks e serrage fou»?????????
14:55:16 <oerjan> boily: that's surprisingly close.
14:55:46 <boily> oerjan: j'y pige que dalle.
14:55:48 <oerjan> which does not imply it's close, mind you.
14:56:22 <boily> (hm. apparently, «j'y pige que dalle» becomes “I freelance shit”. way to go, google!)
14:56:48 <boily> (fyi, that one means “fsck if I understand”.)
14:57:49 <oerjan> turns out google is a bit weak on northern norwegian dialects without official spelling norms
14:58:02 <boily> ottianna: fr:dalle → es:losa.
14:58:21 <Koen__> I thought it was d'alle
14:58:42 <boily> Koen__: I prefer the flagstone version.
14:59:02 <boily> oerjan: by the way, I'm terribly confused by the bokmål/nynorsk issue.
14:59:18 <oerjan> admittedly it doesn't understand the normalized "spenna gærne" either.
14:59:58 <boily> gtrans suggests “gæren”.
15:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet
15:00:54 <oerjan> boily: "I think you're * crazy" where * ~ spenna and has no proper translation although i guess "fucking" will do.
15:01:17 <oerjan> (also the you is plural.)
15:01:46 <boily> aaaah. much clearer, now. «je pense que vous être tous crissement mongols.»
15:02:06 <boily> (not even able to properly conjugate my own verbs. shameful.)
15:04:44 <Koen__> boily: je pense que vous hêtre un arbre, monsieur
15:05:28 <oerjan> boily: well ok so in 1814 when norway got transfered from denmark to sweden in a big post-napoleonic war mess, our official writing language was _danish_.
15:05:29 <boily> Koen__: bon point.
15:06:13 <boily> oerjan: but you still spoke norwegian, right?
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15:06:33 <Koen__> oerjan: did _you_ speak danish at the time?
15:06:46 <oerjan> the mess left us with great inne autonomy (and a constitution), which meant despite being unioned with the swedes we could start being a bit openly nationalistic. and then people thought, we shouldn't keep writing danish.
15:08:01 <oerjan> boily: well except for the upper classs in the capital, which were in fact at one earlier point said to have the best danish pronunciation in the kingdom.
15:09:14 <oerjan> which meant that even after a while had gone, the upper class spoke a norwegian language much closer to danish than what the lower and rural classes did.
15:10:53 <oerjan> so, when deciding how to turn our writing language from danish to norwegian, there was the question of whether to start from the upper class speech and gradually norwegianize that, or whether to start radically by making up an entirely new writing language from "pure" norwegian as spoken out in the country.
15:11:10 <oerjan> and perversely, we did _both_.
15:12:07 <oerjan> bokmål descends from the former, nynorsk from the latter. although both forms have been brought _much_ closer than they originally were back in the late 19th century.
15:12:57 <oerjan> and during the 50's/60's the government tried to push for the final unification by mixing together the least extreme forms on both sides.
15:13:05 <oerjan> ...that backfired horribly.
15:14:01 <boily> I can understand the dichotomy between spoken and written language (French has it), but your case is as you said: perverse.
15:14:19 <oerjan> because although the forms have many commonalities, they have incompatible base _aesthetics_.
15:14:43 <oerjan> and so the mixture was considered by many to be unspeakably ugly.
15:15:55 <oerjan> and so we still have two forms today. although nynorsk has lost a lot of ground, so bokmål is the default in most respects except in a fraction of municipalities.
15:17:00 <boily> and what about all these dialects? that's another subject I have a poor grasp on, because, well... Québec French is Québec French wherever you are (with some minor accent variations).
15:18:46 <oerjan> and at the same time from the 70's or so, norwegians developed the unusual habit of insisting on speaking dialect. in fact it started as part of the movement to preserve nynorsk "Speak dialect, write nynorsk!" is the slogan. the latter part did not succeed so much, the former succeeded brilliantly.
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15:19:23 <boily> oerjan: so you speak a northern dialect, and write bokmål, if I'm not mistaken?
15:20:06 <boily> and you understand and can communicate with other norwegians? (not necessarily by morse)
15:20:15 <oerjan> i recall recently someone pointed out even our crown princess speaks dialect :P
15:21:11 <oerjan> (the crown prince grew up in upper class oslo, which is the least dialecty part of the country.)
15:22:29 <oerjan> there are some dialects that are harder to understand, but they're not so often met around here.
15:22:31 <Bike> "The average English speaker is fluent in their language at the age of 12, in contrast, the average Polish speaker is fluent in their language after age of 16."
15:24:59 <oerjan> boily: btw you might ask, back in the 19th century, why anyone even _cared_ about non-upper class language. this might be connected with an unusual feature of the norwegian constitution of 1814: it gave the vote to farmers.
15:25:31 <oerjan> which i think was immensely radical at the time.
15:25:53 <oerjan> (it did _not_ give the vote to city laborers.)
15:26:51 <oerjan> also, there may have been a distinction between farmers owning their own land and farmers renting, and only the former got to vote. i vaguely think. but still, it meant in norway, the countryside could not be ignored.
15:27:18 <fizzie> "File:Om nom nom (4001714942).jpg" Wikimedia Commons has them bestly named files.
15:27:58 <Bike> "I believe most people would consider literacy as a critical component of modern language. Primary evidence is the article itself, which is written, not spoken. " god i love this comment
15:30:24 <oerjan> boily: btw there are not as big dialectal variations in norway today as there used to be back when every valley was basically isolated. the dialects seem to be consolidating in each region.
15:30:50 <oerjan> (that valley isolation part may explain why we had so many to start with.)
15:31:08 <boily> let me guess. Norway is like Switzerland, but longer.
15:31:29 <boily> fizzie: what is it a file of?
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15:32:33 <Taneb> oerjan, that sounds roughly like English but I think we started a lot earlier?
15:32:54 <oerjan> boily: pretty much. although there's also the fjords, which meant that at one time it was easier to travel by boat than by land, many places.
15:33:54 <boily> oerjan: we have at least one fjord here! :D
15:33:59 <oerjan> Taneb: i suppose quebec might not have so many dialects because the french-speakers got there only a few centuries ago?
15:34:27 <boily> Québec City was settled in 1608, so yeah, very much not long ago.
15:34:35 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't know, the US has a lot of accents
15:34:41 <Taneb> Then again it's a lot more spread out
15:34:52 <boily> Taneb: there are ten times as many Americans vs. Canadians.
15:35:29 <Taneb> Well, 100 years ago around here you could tell what village someone came from from his accent
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15:36:53 <boily> on a not quite related note, what is the name of that thing where you can spot in which language something is written by its characteristics, like «ő» means Hungarian, but you don't speak the language itself?
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15:49:08 <Koen__> boily: pattern recognition? :)
15:50:49 <boily> Koen__: yes, but from the human side. like, simple heuristics, where the error rate doesn't need to tend towards zero.
15:51:29 <boily> not the Ultra Pattern Recognition with Sliced Pineapple and a Small Umbrella Version.
15:54:07 <boily> hm. apparently it's called “language identification”. makes sense.
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15:56:12 <olsner> hmm, boily is almost the entire topic now
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16:51:38 <fizzie> Man, hard disks are so hard to open.
16:52:01 <fizzie> (I'm throwing away some broken ones, and wanted to maybe make data restoration slightly more difficult.)
16:52:21 <boily> hard disk magnets are dangerous to my physical integrity.
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16:53:47 <fizzie> I can't even get this controller board off, because two of the six (Torx) screws went all mushy. (I think my Torx head might be one size too small.)
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16:55:12 <fizzie> I have a T10 and a T15 and the T15 doesn't fit, while the T10 just turns around.
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16:56:26 <Gregor> fizzie: But will it blend?
16:57:38 <fizzie> I don't really have a blender.
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16:59:13 <boily> fizzie: do you have a lawnmower?
17:00:21 <fizzie> I don't have one of those either.
17:03:38 <boily> fizzie: can you do penspinning with a kitchen knife?
17:06:50 <Gregor> I wonder how long you'd have to boil a hard disk before you would manage to reduce it to a rich broth.
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17:11:01 <boily> http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/Images/meat-tenderizer.jpg
17:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, when i was your age a meat tenderiser was just a big mallet
17:23:41 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not *that* young.
17:25:20 <Gregor> When I was your age "Meat Tenderizer" was my gay porn name.
17:26:28 <boily> TIL that Patrick Swayze died four years ago.
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17:28:36 <Gregor> Yeah, I seem to recall hearing that.
17:29:54 <boily> random generelectronic question: can I buy an e-ink display that interfaces just like common LCDs?
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17:37:28 <boily> deterministic prelectronicise answer: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/small-epaper-shield-p-1597.html
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17:59:56 <Koen__> has anyone heard news of the When reference implementation?
18:00:18 <Koen__> other than "You will 'soon' be able to lay your grubby little hands on it." in 2001
18:14:11 <boily> Grin seems to be the only esolang that has a builtin “arccos” function.
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18:19:41 <fizzie> boily: How about Tiny?
18:20:00 <fizzie> boily: Or Qwerty Reverse Polish Notation?
18:20:57 <boily> fizzie: I wasn't up to there, skipped Gammaplex, and I said “seems”.
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18:21:21 <fizzie> Admittedly all those call it "acos".
18:21:31 <nooodl> burlesque has it i think
18:21:45 <boily> ok. for a very, very week value of “seems”.
18:22:01 <boily> probably because I'm browsing the hello-world-in-esolangs page.
18:22:44 <fizzie> Burlesque is a Stlang derivative, so it makes sense it'd have it too.
18:23:07 <boily> speaking of burlesque, where has mroman disappeared?
18:23:22 <fizzie> That's something people do, disappear.
18:23:39 <nooodl> he's still in #anagol!
18:24:58 <boily> the Temptation of Succumbing to the ~Duck is strong, but I will heed the Phantom and not do that.
18:25:08 <metasepia> Your divination: "Swallowing" to "Shake"
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18:50:05 <boily> when trying to cram an acronym into a common word doesn't quite work out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOCK
18:50:38 <Bike> i don't know why they can't just call it "clock"
18:50:44 <kmc> i was expecting the 'L' to be the contrived part
18:51:11 <Bike> "In humans, a polymorphism in Clock, rs6832769, may be related to the personality trait agreeableness" amazing
18:51:31 <elliott> kmc: so you expected the COCK to be okay
18:51:35 <Bike> anyone know a quick way to cut a video in half, like get the first thirty seconds of a sixty second video? in mp4.
18:54:06 <boily> University of Tromsø is the world's northernmost university.
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18:56:00 <nooodl> Bike: ffmpeg -i video.mp4 -vcodec copy -acodec copy -ss 00:00:00 -t 00:00:30 trimmed_video.mp4
18:56:21 <nooodl> oh wait you need exactly half of it, always?
18:56:27 <Bike> no,that works, thanks.
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19:19:57 <myname> a prof of mine said, xor eax, eax isn't faster than mov eax, 0 anymore (iff the cpu has a special zero register)
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19:20:46 <boily> myname: maybe, but I think xor eax, eax has entered Idiomatic Legendary Status.
19:21:26 <myname> boily: well, it may be, but moving between registers can be made in "0 cycles"
19:23:03 <boily> hmm... there should be a special opcode that covers the whole xor instruction (with registers and all), that translates to the mov version.
19:23:27 <boily> so that way, you could xor things with themselves, have performance, and be happy with it.
19:23:59 <myname> yeah, it's not unlikely that this is done
19:24:27 <myname> but in this case xor is not faster than mov, it is equally fast at best
19:25:11 <myname> i'm more confused about "loop" considered slow
19:25:34 <boily> well. loop incurs branches, therefore branch prediction, therefore hair loss.
19:25:40 <myname> i.e. slower than dec rcx & cmp rcx, 0 & jne
19:26:16 <myname> well, if you make the jump without loop, you still need branch prediction
19:26:27 <fizzie> "xor eax, eax" is denser, though.
19:26:47 <myname> if i'd build a processor, i'd make loop as always taken
19:27:59 <boily> if I'd build a processor, I'd have an MP3 opcode.
19:28:24 <myname> you could even make some magic like "if rcx is 1 set the prediction to not taken instead" to make literally 0 flushes in a loop
19:28:39 <fizzie> "Dependency Breaking Idioms -- Instruction parallelism can be improved by using common instructions to clear register contents to zero. The renamer can detect them on the zero evaluation of the destination register. -- Use one of these dependency breaking idioms to clear a register when possible. -- XOR REG, REG -- Since zero idioms are detected and removed by the renamer, they have no ...
19:28:45 <fizzie> ... execution latency."
19:29:10 <fizzie> (Goes a reasonable recent version of the Intel Optimization Manual on the topic of clearing a register.)
19:29:39 <boily> myname: because I'd like to. something that really, really shouldn't get reduced to an opcode.
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19:35:23 <fizzie> As for LOOP, "Assembly/Compiler Coding Rule 31. (M impact, M generality) Avoid using complex instructions (for example, ENTER, LEAVE or LOOP) that have more than four µops and require multiple cycles to decode. Use sequences of simple instructions instead. -- Complex instructions may save architectural registers, but incur a penalty of 4 µops to set up parameters for the microsequencer ROM ...
19:35:29 <fizzie> ... in Intel NetBurst microachitecture."
19:35:58 <fizzie> Also something something about Core microarchitecture and 4-1-1-1 templates and diminishing returns.
19:36:19 <Fiora> if I remember right microcodey things can often use like 8-10+ clocks
19:36:40 <fizzie> "(micro-ops which are executed out of the microsequencer involve extra overhead).
19:36:57 <olsner> if you use LOOP often enough they'll optimize it to be the fastest alternative
19:37:16 <Fiora> this says LOOP is 5 cycles (7 uops) on haswell, LOOP(N)E is 6 cycles (11 uops)?
19:37:23 <fizzie> You have to use it quite a lot to offset what all the mainstream compilers are doing.
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19:38:36 <fizzie> Wonder if GCC "-Os" can be coaxed to LOOP, though.
19:38:46 <boily> lesson of the day: don't use loops. at all. in fact, write you programs with no branches whatsoever.
19:42:01 <myname> boily: also, don't make any data that depends on each other to avoid data hazards
19:42:02 <fizzie> boily: The Optimization Manual, IIRC, sort of recommends against that.
19:42:25 <boily> fizzie: having an MP3 opcode, or writing without branches?
19:42:30 <fizzie> Writing without branches.
19:42:58 <fizzie> AArch64 (the 64-bit ARM arch) removed most of the predicated execution because "our branch predictor is so good, they're not that useful any more".
19:43:11 <myname> fizzie: as in predicated instructions? of course
19:44:28 <fizzie> "Benchmarking shows that modern branch predictors work well enough that predicated execution of instructions does not offer sufficient benefit to justify its significant use of opcode space, and its implementation cost in advanced implementations."
19:44:32 <fizzie> (Without paraphrasing.)
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19:45:42 <fizzie> One assumes perhaps the "significant use of opcode space" was more of an issue because they needed to fit more register bits in there. (AArch64 also doubled the number of registers.)
19:46:09 <Fiora> did they keep predication for a few common cases ?
19:46:15 <Fiora> I heard they did something like that
19:46:30 <Fiora> (like I guess "conditional add" is way nicer than "conditional leading zero count")
19:46:35 <Fiora> um, do you know which ones?
19:46:54 <fizzie> Fiora: "Only conditional branches, and a handful of data processing instructions read the condition flags."
19:47:04 <fizzie> I guess that's not much of an answer.
19:47:08 <Fiora> yeah, I guess not^^;
19:47:23 <HackEgo> jix: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:47:36 <kmc> oh it's sad that they removed predicated instructions from ARM
19:47:41 <kmc> although that was mostly the case already with Thumb
19:47:59 <kmc> Thumb2 has the weird if-then-else instructions
19:48:06 <fizzie> kmc: They didn't include IT either.
19:48:10 <kmc> does Leg have those?
19:48:19 <kmc> (I'm going to call it Leg instead of AArch64 if that's OK with everyone)
19:48:41 <fizzie> Fiora: Oh, the document I was quoting (pasted from irclogs) has more detail. Just a moment.
19:48:43 <Fiora> so does that mean that switching to x86 is giving up an arm and a leg?
19:49:21 <fizzie> Fiora: "The conditional instruction types are: Conditional branch -- Add/subtract with carry -- Conditional select with increment, negate or invert -- Conditional compare"
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19:49:37 <Fiora> I guess that covers a lot of it
19:49:50 <Fiora> almost eeeverything I've ever felt like I wanted conditionals for were conditional move/add/subtract
19:50:39 <fizzie> "Conditional select with X" means you can select between two source registers based on the condition flag, and the other source can optionally be unmodified/negated/incremented/inverted.
19:50:48 <fizzie> So it's kind of like a three-argument CMOV on steroids.
19:50:53 <Fiora> ooooh, that's cool.
19:51:17 <Fiora> gosh, that kind of "source can be optionally {long list of things}" reminds me of vpperm
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19:52:06 <fizzie> And "conditional compare" means it does a comparison if the specified condition is true, otherwise sets it to an immediate value, and the idea is to flatten nested conditionals without needing to do conditional branches or arithmetic with boolean values.
19:52:39 <Fiora> so like.... if( x > y ) x = 1?
19:52:47 <kmc> sets what? the flag?
19:53:16 <fizzie> kmc: Yes, the flag that would otherwise be set as per the result of the comparison.
19:53:44 <Fiora> so it's a compare that only saves its results if a condition is true?
19:53:53 <Fiora> so like if( cond ) { condition flag = {cond2} }
19:54:05 <fizzie> Fiora: Yes. (Well, it also does not do the comparison, but I'm not sure how you'd observe that.)
19:54:28 <Fiora> I guess that makes sense with big complicated if statements and stuff.
19:55:06 <fizzie> Fiora: And now that I read this more closely, it seems as if "add/subtract with carry" meant just that; it's not a specifically conditional add/subtract, but instead it was listed as a "conditional instruction type" because it uses a condition (the carry flag) as an input.
19:55:37 <kmc> Fiora: wow this VPPERM instruction is pretty fancy
19:58:49 <fizzie> Fiora: As a minor additional note, the "conditional select" group includes also "conditional set", the x86 "SETcc" thing. (Except there's one variant to select between 0/1, and another to select between 0/-1, which I suppose could be nice for doing some conditional masks. Although maybe you don't need to do that many masks with the conditional select from two regs.)
19:59:17 <Fiora> ooooh. that's kinda nice. especially since I'm guessing it won't be like setcc and only work on 8-bit registers -_-
19:59:55 <fizzie> Right, it's full registers.
20:00:21 <boily> a chess programming wiki, that dabbles in assembly instructions. what has the world come to → http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/XOP#VPPERM
20:00:31 <kmc> yeah i saw that -- pretty awesome
20:00:41 <Fiora> chess programming stuff has loots of assembly and microoptimization things
20:00:44 <Fiora> it's kinda cool really :o
20:00:45 <fizzie> Hmm, there's conditional increment/invert/negate... oh, of course, those are just special cases of "conditional select and X" with the both source registers the same.
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20:02:20 <boily> fizzie: but it's only chess! why does it need that much microfiddling?
20:02:38 <boily> (it's still kinda cool. completely unobvious.)
20:02:47 <Fiora> um, well, like, you need to find fast ways to perform common operations like
20:02:56 <Fiora> how do you represent a board, or like, how do you calculate which squares can be attacked
20:03:16 <Fiora> since you need to generate moves fast (at any given node in your minimax tree) and have a heuristic that's evaluated fast
20:04:05 <boily> fizzie: autocompletion once again fail me.
20:07:21 <Bike> have you ever tried minmaxing anything? looking a dozen moves ahead in tic tac toe is hard, let alone chess
20:08:25 <boily> Bike: we did some minmaxing back in some random university class. it didn't work.
20:09:17 <Fiora> if I recall correctly a lot of the top chess programs do like. 5 million nodes per second or more
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20:10:04 <Bike> ~it's exponential~
20:10:04 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
20:10:49 <Bike> So it stands to reason that you want to reduce the coefficient of those exponents as much as possible. Right? Right.
20:11:41 <boily> Bike: reducing dimensions is usually the first step → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_dimensionality
20:12:03 <Bike> well yeah, you wanna prune the tree too.
20:12:38 <boily> the soonest you remove things, the soonest you can arrive at the wrong answer.
20:13:04 <boily> (then prune the wrong answer off, and start again until the only thing left is the right answer.)
20:15:42 <fizzie> 98% of the participants of the "Introduction to AI" course I helped with minmaxed during the course programmng project.
20:16:57 <fizzie> Generally up to something like 4-6 ply.
20:17:15 <kmc> what game / problem?
20:18:08 <fizzie> It was a game that really was only used on the course -- http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/rules_en.html
20:18:39 <fizzie> Branching factor generally about 1.5-2x that of chess, from what I recall.
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20:20:17 <fizzie> Alpha-beta pruning (which maybe 80-90% did) with perfect move ordering in theory lets you look twice as far.
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20:22:53 <Fiora> Bike: I remember reading that they found that (up to a point) shorter, more exhaustive searches tended to be better than deeper, less branchy ones (for chess at least)
20:23:11 <Fiora> though that's with stuff like quiesence searches and check extensions
20:23:37 <fizzie> I seem to recall one submission where a last-minute change flipped the sign in an otherwise well-working minmax-with-alpha-beta search system, so that the AI in question made a pretty good effort to lose every game it played.
20:23:45 <Bike> mmhm yes *examines words while holding chin in thoughtful gesture*
20:24:12 * boily examines fizzie while holding Bike's chin in thoughtful gesture
20:24:50 <fizzie> boily: You made that sound like an adventure game action.
20:25:30 <Bike> sounds like a pretyt in-depth game if it understands all that.
20:28:01 <fizzie> Maybe just the first part.
20:28:02 <boily> ESOTER: Explore the dungeons of #esoteric! Battle the Dragon of Diæresis! Grab wonderous loot, and examine Finns!
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20:50:48 <olsner> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zzo38
20:52:19 <Bike> tsk tsk, totally incccurate sample
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21:00:06 <Taneb> zzo was on South America!?
21:00:59 <Taneb> i'm tired and confused and don't know what is going on
21:01:42 <fizzie> fungot: The curiosity killed the bot.
21:01:43 <fungot> fizzie: i'm fnord back at the end of the sequence, then they're the same
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21:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> http://nautil.us/issue/5/fame/the-twin-prime-hero it makes me unreasonably angry that they are still pulling this shit
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21:10:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KbZZ <- that's not good at all.
21:14:53 <fizzie> Opening the offending file in evince and printing it to a PDF file made it work. Computers!
21:18:00 <olsner> reminds me of some online checkin that produced PDFs that was only readable on one computer and that was not the computer that was connected to any printer
21:18:51 <olsner> ended up mailing each boarding card to the one who could read them, convert them to pdf, mail them again to the guy who could print
21:19:18 <fizzie> Oh, boarding passes, that's also always a fun.
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21:19:45 <fizzie> I think I once printed one at a hotel where the computer connected to their printer had no PDF viewer I could find.
21:20:05 <fizzie> Ended up opening it on the laptop and print-to-fileing to that one Microsoft things, whatsitcalled.
21:20:26 <fizzie> No, the more PDF-alike.
21:21:05 <fizzie> There's a "Microsoft XPS Document Writer" by default.
21:21:23 <fizzie> "The XPS Document Writer allows you to create .xps files using any program that you run on Windows. XPS documents look the same in print as they do on the screen. They are portable, like any other file that you can e–mail or transfer using a CD, DVD, universal serial bus (USB) drive, or network connection. They are also easy to share because you can view them on any computer where an XPS ...
21:21:29 <fizzie> ... viewer is installed, even if the computer does not have the same programs that you used to create the original documents."
21:21:36 <fizzie> Sounds quite a bit like PDF, doesn't it?
21:22:28 <fizzie> It's an ECMA standard and all.
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21:27:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pulling what?
21:30:30 <Phantom_Hoover> reporting everything that happens in maths as the result of a lone genius
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21:34:09 <elliott> it basically was in this case to start with, wasn't it?
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22:22:21 <oerjan> i should tell zzo38 of my new invented spell to annihilate frogs.
22:22:44 <FreeFull> For some reason, in ARM ASM, xor is eor
22:22:56 <oerjan> you simply intone the magical words BREKEKEKEX XOR EAX, EAX
22:24:39 <FreeFull> I don't think that annihilates frogs
22:24:55 <kmc> FreeFull: Winnie the Pooh fans I assume
22:27:52 <oerjan> Eeyore! Eeyore! Cthulhu Fhtagn!
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22:29:40 <oerjan> oh that exists http://miscellany.lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/swanson-eeyore.jpg
22:31:19 <oerjan> my brekekekex xor eax, eax was not googleable, alas
22:31:57 <oerjan> i suppose aristophanes hasn't truly permeated geek culture yet.
22:32:31 <kmc> I got the joke!
22:32:38 <kmc> via Major-General's Song naturally.
22:33:56 <oerjan> there's always a joke, olsner
22:35:28 <FreeFull> When you don't see the joke, you are the joke
22:41:13 <Bike> arisophanes is on my reading list but keeps going down
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22:55:27 <HackEgo> 68 105 230 114 101 115 105 115
22:55:38 <oerjan> hm nothing funny going on there
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23:01:21 <FreeFull> Something funny going on there
23:01:30 -!- azaq23 has joined.
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23:08:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | perl -C7 -pe 'chomp; $_ = join(" ", map { ord } split //, $_);'
23:09:46 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/sh/bash/' bin/ord
23:10:28 <Bike> `run sh -c 'echo \n'
23:10:33 <Bike> `run bash -c 'echo \n'
23:10:44 <Bike> should i even ask
23:11:02 <oerjan> i vaguely recall it depends on whether it has terminal
23:11:12 <Bike> so that's a no
23:11:36 <oerjan> anyway, /bin/sh behaves in weird ways.
23:13:38 <Bike> `run sh -c 'echo -e "\n"'
23:17:55 <oerjan> `run ls -l `which sh` `which bash`
23:17:57 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 926536 Apr 10 2010 /bin/bash \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 4 Oct 14 2011 /bin/sh -> dash
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23:29:15 <oerjan> Koen__: is the account koen_ yours? it hasn't been used in a while.
23:29:37 <oerjan> (not the same as koen)
23:29:50 <Koen__> my irc client thinks it's fun to join a server, disconnect, then join again when I open it
23:30:09 <Koen__> maybe I should have Koen__ as my second choice and Koen_ as my third
23:30:22 -!- Koen__ has quit (Client Quit).
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23:30:57 <oerjan> ALSO YOU ARE EVADING THE QUESTION
23:31:07 <Koen_> also it doesn't allow to change nicks without logging out, as far as I know
23:31:25 <Koen_> but yeah I think it's mine
23:31:43 <oerjan> you might want to log in before it expires
23:32:05 <Koen_> hrm, not the usual password
23:32:38 <Koen_> I DON'T KNOW THE PASSWORD OKAY
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23:33:57 <Koen_> I was trying to sleep but apparently I need to write an interpreter for When before I can
23:36:50 <oerjan> Koen_: i think you can probably get the account dropped and then reregister it, it's even the "2 weeks expiry if not used more than 2 hours after registration" clause.
23:37:27 <Koen_> I'm sure I have used it less that 2 hours after registration
23:37:41 <oerjan> yes that's what i said.
23:38:02 <oerjan> and it would be expired anyhow under the 10 week clause.
23:38:18 <Koen_> it's definitely been more than ten weeks since I used it
23:38:22 <oerjan> (i recall it used to be 60 weeks?)
23:38:36 <Koen_> does that mean I'm not the one using it?
23:38:43 <oerjan> ...why are you agreeing with me? i already checked with NickServ.
23:39:10 <Koen_> I wasn't agreeing with you I just had trouble understanding what you said
23:39:22 <oerjan> i'm saying it _has_ expired, so you can get it dropped, thus reregister it with a password you know.
23:39:58 <Koen_> if I do that I'll never know what the password was, though
23:40:14 <oerjan> and this is a problem how? :P
23:40:34 <Koen_> I'll just put it on the "I'll do it tomorrow" list
23:40:44 <Koen_> it's a First-in Never-out data structure
23:41:11 <oerjan> ah one of those. is it stored in one of those write-only memories?
23:41:28 -!- augur has joined.
23:41:36 <Koen_> it's still thursday here Phantom_Hoover
23:41:50 <kmc> Random Standard Time!
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23:48:02 <Koen_> oerjan: it's funny you should say that, cause I'm starting to think that When's strings *are* write-only
23:48:35 <Koen_> as in, there's a concatenation operator, but no substring or array subscript operator
23:56:36 <oerjan> the when specification doesn't actually specify the operators?
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00:00:43 <oerjan> so there might well be more operators than those in the examples. otherwise the claim that strings make When TC seems unreasonable.
00:04:04 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:04:52 <Koen_> yeah, but the When specifications states that the operators should be fairly straightforward for anyone who's programmed in C-like languages
00:05:06 <Koen_> and it also says that the only types are integers, strings, and null
00:05:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:05:44 <Koen_> the only thing I could imagine would be a [] operator that would return a 1-char long string
00:07:12 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B13:00
00:08:11 <kmc> Bombay time was UTC+04:51
00:08:47 <kmc> i heard a rumor once of a "Riyadh Mean Solar Time" which was adjusted every day so that the sun was absolutely overhead at noon
00:09:04 <kmc> I think it's one of the few timezones that the Olson timezone database doesn't support :D
00:09:26 <Bike> what would riyadh need that for
00:10:02 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: did you know that random little bits of America opt out of daylight savings time
00:10:06 <kmc> isn't federalism great
00:10:11 <elliott> http://lists.globus.org/pipermail/gt-dev/2006-October/000844.html is the only thing google finds
00:11:34 <kmc> yeah Indiana alone has 11 tz database entries
00:11:35 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%E2%88%9200:25#Dublin_Mean_Time
00:12:08 <Bike> i know a programmer who lives in indiana and works with time sometimes. i've considered mailing him some of my antiepressants
00:12:16 <elliott> used in Lireland Standard Dates
00:12:59 <elliott> The most extensive study of time zone history in Indiana has been published in The American Atlas (1978) by Thomas G. Shanks, where the author identifies 345 areas in the state with a different time zone history for each.
00:13:19 <kmc> it must be cool to be definitively the world expert at that
00:13:57 <kmc> and Arizona also ignores DST, except for some but not all of the Native American territories which are kind-of-part-of the state
00:14:03 <elliott> that's the book that tzdata is based on or something, I think
00:14:11 <Bike> gosh, googling "history of time in saudi arabia" comes up with "history of the jews in saudi arabia". who cares about that
00:14:22 <kmc> "they all lived together happily ever after the end"
00:14:30 <kmc> http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html
00:14:34 <kmc> "The Long, Painful History of Time"
00:14:56 <oerjan> Koen_: well in C char is an integer type, maybe When works like that too.
00:15:29 <kmc> you could do 'a' * 'b' in Rust until a few weeks ago
00:15:30 <Koen_> okay I'll add a [ ] operator then
00:16:39 <oerjan> <Bike> what would riyadh need that for <-- the islamic calendar is afaiu based on direct astronomical observation rather than math, and the saudis are pretty big on islam.
00:17:22 <Bike> yes well the jewish calendar is lunar and i've never heard of jerusalem switching to lunar months
00:18:43 <Koen_> oerjan: hmm but in C, str[k] is a variable (an lvalue? am I using this term correctly?), it can be assigned
00:19:22 <kmc> it's an lvalue yeah
00:19:26 <Koen_> that gives it a different feel from the rest of When, in my opinion
00:19:53 <Koen_> I mean, it obviously has no rules attached as do other variables
00:20:49 <Bike> "Saudi Arabia uses the sighting method to determine the beginning of each month of the Hijri calendar. Since AH 1419 (1998/99) several official hilal sighting committees have been set up by the government to determine the first visual sighting of the lunar crescent at the beginning of each lunar month."
00:20:53 <Koen_> so that would either mean that the assignment operator doesn't trigger any rules when assigning to str[k], or that it triggers str's rules, even though it's not directly str which is assigned
00:21:07 <Bike> it's amazing how incredibly boring theology is most of the time
00:22:46 <Koen_> they could get creative and come up with a Praying@Home distributed theology
00:23:32 <Bike> islam has a long history of arguing over whether different kinds of theological arguments are worthwhile
00:26:14 <kmc> that's called 'pataphysics
00:28:38 <Koen_> hey any idea what "right-to-left" associativity means for UNARY operators?
00:29:04 <Koen_> or left-to-right for that matter - I just don't see what sense to make out of unary associativity
00:29:59 <Koen_> obviously !!x can only be interpreted as !(!x), right?
00:30:51 <Bike> associativity is a property of binary operators.
00:31:28 <Koen_> unless you've got some unary operator that can be indifferently postfix and infix, so !x! can be either of (!x)! and !(x!); but C precedence tables already list "postfix ++" and "infix ++" as two different operators with different priorities anyway
00:32:56 <Bike> what the heck is associativity for a 3-ary function
00:33:11 <Koen_> I think they talk about "pseudo-associativity rule" for heaps, or something
00:33:33 <Koen_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heap_%28mathematics%29
00:33:39 <Koen_> para-associative law
00:34:01 <Bike> foo(foo(a,b,c),d,e) = foo(a,foo(b,c,d),e)?
00:34:12 <Koen_> something like that
00:34:25 <Bike> php doesn't exist, sorry
00:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> well the point here is that it uses the wrong associativity for ternary if
00:37:03 <Bike> isn't it just that it parses a?b:c?d:e as ?:(?:(a,b,c),d,e)
00:37:47 <Koen_> who parses it like that
00:37:47 <elliott> that's associativity, though
00:37:49 <Bike> instead of ?:(a,b,?:(c,d,e)).
00:37:54 <Bike> is it? i don't know that's why i'm asking
00:37:57 <elliott> a + b + c being +(a,+(b,c)) or +(+(a,b),c)
00:38:13 <Koen_> nah that's math-associativity
00:38:15 <elliott> "how you put the parens in to combinations of operators"
00:39:13 <Koen_> my definition for an operator to be math-associative is "you don't need a computer-associativity rule about it"
00:39:20 <Bike> so, if ?: was associative, ?:(?:(a,b,c),d,e) = ?:(a,?:(b,c,d),e) = ?:(a,b,?:(c,d,e)).
00:39:23 <Bike> that would be weird.
00:40:51 <Bike> (i'm wondering about math associativity because i don't care about parsing)
00:41:37 <elliott> but Koen_ was talking about "right-to-left" associativity.
00:41:46 <elliott> so the topic changed completely somewhere here
00:42:05 <Koen_> well I was reading wikipedia's C operators precedence table
00:42:17 <Koen_> and one of the boxes happens to have only unary operators
00:42:37 <Koen_> and they are specified to be right-to-left associative
00:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> (i'm wondering about math associativity because i don't care about parsing)
00:43:33 <Bike> then why did you say "n-ary where n > 1"
00:44:34 <Koen_> Bike: apparently e = a < d ? a++ : a = d is parsed differently in C and C++
00:47:45 <oerjan> Koen_: floating point + isn't math-associative
00:48:56 <Koen_> is there any language where + isn't commutative because you can add anything with anything but the return type depends of the order of the arguments?
00:49:09 <Bike> somebody else today was confused and annoyed by generating the sequence "1.2, 1.4, 1.6000001, 1.800001" or something. it gets so old
00:49:18 <Bike> Koen_: any language where + works on strings
00:49:37 <Bike> well, no, that's just noncommutativity, not what you said. sorry
00:50:21 <oerjan> > [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:50:22 <lambdabot> [1.2,1.4,1.5999999,1.7999998,1.9999998,2.1999998,2.3999999,2.6,2.8,3.0,3.2,...
00:51:44 <oerjan> lambdabot: nice recovery there
00:52:22 <oerjan> > drop 7 [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:52:23 <lambdabot> [2.6,2.8,3.0,3.2,3.4,3.6000001,3.8000002,4.0,4.2,4.3999996,4.5999994,4.7999...
00:52:45 <oerjan> > drop 17 [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:52:46 <lambdabot> [4.5999994,4.799999,4.999999,5.199999,5.3999987,5.5999985,5.7999983,5.99999...
00:53:24 <oerjan> > drop 24 [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:53:24 <lambdabot> [5.999998,6.199998,6.3999977,6.5999975,6.7999973,6.999997,7.199997,7.399996...
00:53:25 <Bike> > drop 2439 [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:53:26 <lambdabot> [488.97592,489.1759,489.3759,489.57587,489.77585,489.97583,490.1758,490.375...
00:54:00 <Fiora> > drop 50000 [0, 0.001 :: Float ..]
00:54:01 <lambdabot> [49.974503,49.975502,49.9765,49.9775,49.9785,49.9795,49.9805,49.9815,49.982...
00:54:09 <Fiora> > drop 50000000 [0, 0.001 :: Float ..]
00:54:13 <lambdabot> [16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16...
00:54:23 <Bike> "well, that's a good place to stop"
00:54:30 <elliott> 16384 certainly is a number.
00:54:35 <Fiora> > drop 50000000 [0, 0.001 :: Double ..]
00:54:38 <lambdabot> [49999.99988652039,50000.000886520385,50000.00188652038,50000.00288652038,5...
00:55:17 <oerjan> > filter (\x -> 2 >= length (break (=='.') (show x)) ) [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:55:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]'
00:55:27 <Bike> i was about to ask how to do that.
00:55:31 <Bike> thank god for nerds
00:55:51 <oerjan> > filter (\x -> 2 >= length (dropWhile (/='.') (show x)) ) [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:55:52 <lambdabot> [1.2,1.4,2.6,2.8,3.0,3.2,3.4,4.0,4.2,18.8,19.0,19.2,74.8,75.0,75.2,940.6,94...
00:55:57 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
00:56:12 <Bike> yeah, whatever, don't remember enough stdlib
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00:56:30 <oerjan> > drop 10 $ filter (\x -> 2 >= length (dropWhile (/='.') (show x)) ) [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:56:31 <lambdabot> [19.0,19.2,74.8,75.0,75.2,940.6,940.8,941.0,941.2,941.4,1283.1,1283.3,1556....
00:56:52 <oerjan> > drop 20 $ filter (\x -> 2 >= length (dropWhile (/='.') (show x)) ) [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:56:53 <lambdabot> [1283.1,1283.3,1556.2,1556.4,1829.5,2068.4,2068.6,2170.9,2171.1,2273.4,2273...
00:57:05 <oerjan> looks like it keeps happening
00:57:27 <elliott> I warned you about floating point, oerjan.
00:57:36 <Bike> hi shut up elliott
00:58:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v elliott.
00:58:04 <Bike> @hoogle a -> [a] -> Int
00:58:04 <lambdabot> Data.List elemIndex :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> Maybe Int
00:58:04 <lambdabot> Data.List elemIndices :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [Int]
00:58:04 <lambdabot> Network.BufferType buf_concat :: BufferOp a -> [a] -> a
00:58:10 <elliott> why thank you, oerjan. I'm glad you appreciate my jokes so much.
00:58:15 <Bike> way to do the exact opposite of shutting up!
00:58:15 <Fiora> I think "it keeps happening" is an appropriate response to the one where it keeps giving the same number xD
00:58:38 <doesthiswork> elliot: is that a sweet bro and hella jeff reference?
01:00:07 <oerjan> now elliott is impersonating me with his op powers? outrageous!
01:00:58 <Bike> > let list = [0, 0.001 :: Double..] in elemIndex True (zipWith (==) list ((\(a:b) -> b) list)) -- i'm the haskellest
01:00:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:25: parse error on input `Double..'
01:01:07 <Bike> > let list = [0, 0.001 :: Double ..] in elemIndex True (zipWith (==) list ((\(a:b) -> b) list))
01:01:33 <Bike> > let list = [0, 0.001 :: Float ..] in elemIndex True (zipWith (==) list ((\(a:b) -> b) list))
01:02:10 <Bike> > drop 1676250 [0, 0.001 :: Float ..]
01:02:11 <lambdabot> [1649.6229,1649.6239,1649.6249,1649.6259,1649.6268,1649.6278,1649.6288,1649...
01:02:28 <Bike> > drop 16764250 [0, 0.001 :: Float ..]
01:02:30 <lambdabot> [16383.998,16383.999,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384....
01:02:38 <Bike> i'm the best programmer; you're welcome.
01:05:10 <Bike> floats have what, five bit exponent? i can't remember this stuff
01:05:23 <oerjan> it's the mantissa that matters, i think
01:06:02 <Bike> so where'd fourteen come from!
01:06:20 <Bike> or did you just remember that 16384 is a power of two
01:06:58 <oerjan> although i could have guessed it too.
01:07:29 <oerjan> > 16384 + 2^^(-10) :: Float
01:07:34 <oerjan> > 16384 + 2^^(-9) :: Float
01:08:24 <oerjan> 14+10 = 24 which is presumably around how many bits of mantissa there is.
01:09:15 <oerjan> so once it reaches 2^14, the 0.001 doesn't contain any bits large enough to affect the other number when added to it.
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01:10:12 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
01:10:19 <lambdabot> class (Real a, Fractional a) => RealFrac a where
01:10:19 <lambdabot> properFraction :: (Integral b) => a -> (b,a)
01:10:19 <lambdabot> truncate, round, ceiling, floor :: (Integral b) => a -> b
01:10:39 <oerjan> hm what is that class again
01:11:13 <oerjan> oh it is RealFloat, @src just doesn't have it :(
01:12:25 <oerjan> > floatDigits (undefined :: Float)
01:14:23 <oerjan> http://lambda.haskell.org/platform/doc/current/ghc-doc/libraries/haskell2010-1.1.1.0/Prelude.html#g:7 and scroll down a bit.
01:15:24 <Bike> > floatRange (undefined :: Float)
01:15:47 <Bike> eight. well i guess that makes sense.
01:16:02 <oerjan> http://lambda.haskell.org/platform/doc/current/ghc-doc/libraries/haskell2010-1.1.1.0/Prelude.html#t:RealFloat found the right anchor
01:19:36 <oerjan> atan2 somehow feels a little out of place in that class :P
01:21:06 <Bike> huh, does the default implementation use decode or something
01:22:57 <oerjan> hm it actually uses isNegativeZero.
01:23:38 <oerjan> to select the proper branch
01:24:14 <oerjan> if it didn't bother with that, Floating and Ord would be sufficient.
01:25:25 <oerjan> which means it would probably end up in RealFloat anyway, as the largest class subclassing both.
01:29:57 <Sgeo> I need to resume watching The IT Crowd
01:41:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:06:50 <Sgeo> Code that I have written has run on ... maybe millions of computers
02:07:19 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe not as many
02:07:24 <Sgeo> More than thousands I think, at least
02:07:51 <Bike> http://petewarden.com/2013/09/27/why-openheatmap-is-banned-from-github/ eesh.
02:54:45 <Sgeo> Somehow I don't think this is valid HTML anymore http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html
02:56:31 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/nextid.html
02:56:46 <Bike> "At present, it is likely that NEXTID will be dropped from the HTML specification, since it is not terribly useful. You are therefore advised against wasting your time reading the rest of this page!" "Last Update: 5 January 1998
03:02:46 <oerjan> Sgeo the web historian
03:08:19 <kmc> which code sgo
03:08:21 <kmc> re millions
03:09:21 <Sgeo> Any Javascript code that I've written on the job..
03:09:48 <Sgeo> The ISP I work for is quite popular
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06:41:32 <fizzie> Hmp. Python argparse -- with a single positional argument with nargs='+' and optional arguments a, b and c -- can extract ['foo', 'bar', 'baz'] out of "-a x -b y -c z foo bar baz" or "foo bar baz -a x -b y -c z" just fine, but can't seem to cope with "-a x foo -b y bar -c z baz". As in, all positional arguments must be in a single group.
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09:17:40 <Taneb> In 24 hours I will be in a flat in York
09:25:50 <fizzie> Is it almost like New York except old?
09:26:47 <Taneb> You can even by shirts that say...
09:29:59 <Taneb> So, I'm rather nervous
09:31:00 <fizzie> Just imagine the flat has no clothes on, I hear that helps.
09:31:49 <Taneb> I am not sure if I can picture a flat /with/ clothes on
09:44:00 <Taneb> Why is elliott voiced
09:44:08 <Taneb> Why not Gregor or Roujo
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10:06:51 <Taneb> I'm working on Rummy mixed with Breakout
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10:34:07 <Taneb> I've been spontaneously screaming "No!" more often than usual recently
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11:20:40 <Taneb> Is there a term for something like a queuestack but the two ends are accessible in completely different ways and it is tricky to get something from one end to the other?
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16:11:16 <HackEgo> reynir: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:11:38 <reynir> wow, what a welcome :)
16:11:48 <Taneb> Wait till you see...
16:11:54 <HackEgo> reynir: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:12:22 <reynir> I have been working on a compiler targeting brainfuck
16:12:57 <Taneb> What does it compile?
16:13:30 <reynir> Right now only simple arithmetic expressions with addition, subtraction and multiplication
16:13:47 <reynir> It's written in Coq, so it's a certified compiler
16:14:20 <reynir> Here's the project https://github.com/reynir/Brainfuck
16:14:45 <Taneb> I feel like I know your nick from somewhere...
16:15:19 <reynir> Could be from 0x10c. I recognize a few names from there
16:16:16 <reynir> I was wondering if you have any tips for structuring programs / compiling to BF
16:17:25 <Taneb> And I'm gonna have to go now, got to pack my computer
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16:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> reynir, i want to make fun of you for liking 0x10c but my heart's not in it right now
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16:43:47 <Phantom_Hoover> reynir, OK now I'm lightly intoxicated, and you were a fool to believe notch would ever manage to stick it through with another game
16:44:07 <reynir> that was quick, 12 minutes
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16:45:31 <reynir> No, I mean you're quick to get intoxicated
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16:47:24 <olsner> "[...] (in Hindi): "Don't pretend you are studying farsi/looks like farsi to me""
16:51:12 <reynir> I just found this http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck_algorithms
16:52:57 <reynir> Source is arithmetic expressions with plus, minus, and multiplication. The target is brainfuck.
16:53:19 <reynir> So the source language is very simple and not very interesting
16:53:47 <shikhin> Can I get some sort of a URL, project website, repo, anythign? :P
16:54:10 <reynir> oh, sure. https://github.com/reynir/Brainfuck
16:54:44 <reynir> Yea, both directions are infinite
16:55:23 <reynir> It's easier when you don't have to deal with special cases all the time (i.e. going beyond the tape)
16:57:25 <reynir> It could be awesome to compile a turing complete language eventually
16:58:00 <AnotherTest> what about a brainfuck to brainfuck compiler
16:59:13 <reynir> Yea, I was considering doing optimizations and prove their correctness
16:59:35 <AnotherTest> Is the idea to have a relatively low-level language, that is which uses a tape rather than variables?
17:00:03 <AnotherTest> or do you want do something more similar to "C subset to brainfuck"
17:01:37 <reynir> Hm, not sure. Right now I have proven some stack primitives (push, add, dup, ...) and just compile the expressions down to those
17:02:21 <reynir> So I guess the answer is the first and maybe the second. So, develop a theory for a simple stack machine and compile down to that
17:03:31 <AnotherTest> @tell oerjan Well, it seems logical to call those cosets obtained by right multiplication the right cosets. These are usually called left cosets though.
17:04:13 <AnotherTest> reynir: Yes, the stack based language could be used as an intermediate language I guess.
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17:30:09 <boily> back from lunch, and I see someone else `relcommed in my absence.
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17:42:24 <metasepia> CYUL 271700Z VRB03KT 15SM FEW030 BKN042 18/10 A3029 RMK SC1SC4 SLP257
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17:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, can you not just look out of your window to see the weather
17:47:02 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: too much light outside.
17:49:15 <Koen_> does codu discards logs when they're too old?
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17:49:31 <Koen_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-11-12 doesn't show here :(
17:52:27 <Koen_> good, I feel much better
17:53:27 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: good idea.
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18:04:53 <metasepia> EFHK 271750Z 36006KT 9999 FEW040 05/04 Q1008 NOSIG
18:04:58 <fizzie> (It's dark out there.)
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18:09:00 <fizzie> Today I drove a silly little car around.
18:09:35 <ion> Were there thirty clowns in it?
18:10:20 <fizzie> No, arguably just one.
18:11:05 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Fortwo <- that thing. (A rental.)
18:11:52 <ion> Was it yellow? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Smart_ForTwo_Passion_convertible_--_04-22-2011_2.jpg | http://pbfcomics.com/258/
18:13:19 <fizzie> No, it was branded with the rental company (Sixt) logo; it's their cheapest thing.
18:14:45 <ion> Is the name a Douglas Adams reference?
18:14:57 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sure. Does that somehow make "silly little" not applicable?
18:15:54 <fizzie> Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
18:16:16 <boily> that was an MIB3 reference.
18:16:25 <fizzie> They don't sell the electric version in Finland, which is a shame. (Not that I'm in the market for a car, though.)
18:16:31 <ion> I disagree.
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18:25:39 <kmc> apparently WebKit doesn't do kerning / ligatures unless you put "text-rendering: optimizeLegibility;" in the CSS
18:25:51 <kmc> "text-rendering: not-shitty;"
18:27:29 <elliott> tries to make the machine code as close to english text as possible
18:27:33 <boily> some day, we'll observe a merge between LaTeX and HTML.
18:27:48 <Bike> making machine code alphanumeric is neat.
18:28:58 <boily> there should be a mapping from hexadecimal to carefully chosen consonnants and vowels, like how 0 becomes “o”, and so on.
18:29:13 <kmc> http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=57&id=15 "Writing ia32 alphanumeric shellcodes"
18:29:16 <boily> of course, 9 should be “b”, so that a NOP slide on x86 becomes “bobobobobobo” :D
18:29:54 <Bike> plus there was that one paper about making programs that look enough like english text to fool most programs.
18:29:57 <Bike> with words and stuff.
18:30:37 <Fiora> Bike: oooh, that sounds really cool
18:30:45 <Fiora> that's like shell code except crazier
18:31:46 <Bike> www.cs.jhu.edu/~sam/ccs243-mason.pdf maybe this
18:34:39 <kmc> so awesome
18:34:42 <kmc> thanks Bike
18:36:30 <kmc> also cool, JHU
18:36:42 <Bike> that's me, your source for random papers on random subjects
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18:37:18 <kmc> my friend was a physics grad student there until he "temporarily" moved in with his girlfriend in San Francisco "for the summer" and then got a job and called them to say he's never coming back
18:39:39 <fizzie> Why does an "avconv"-generated MP3 sound glitchy and print things like "[mp3float @ 0x7f3cb0606400]big_values too big" when seeking with mplayer?
18:39:46 <kmc> i love that error message
18:39:48 <kmc> big values too big
18:40:10 <kmc> in fact when I first saw it I sent it to this channel
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18:41:40 <olsner> might be a bug in the sideband demultiplexer
18:41:57 <Bike> `pastelog big_values
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18:42:05 <fizzie> Plays fine with vlc, FWIW.
18:42:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20705
18:42:45 <fizzie> (Background information: I doubt the car plays FLACs. Though who knows.)
18:45:04 <kmc> does it play Ogg Vorbis?
18:45:08 <kmc> surprisingly many things do
18:45:26 <kmc> after all it has free implementations and no patent encumberance, so it's easy to add :)
18:45:43 <fizzie> It might, but it sounds like too much effort to make an extra round-trip to verify that.
18:45:49 <kmc> I've used Vorbis for many years as my standard format for encoding stuff to play on various devices
18:46:00 <kmc> because it's smaller than MP3 and encoders are easy to get
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18:46:43 <fizzie> We won't have time to listen to a stickful of MP3s on this trip anyway, so I'll go with what's known to work this time.
18:47:15 <boily> how long is a stickful?
18:47:29 <fizzie> (Having said that, it'll probably turn out it barfs on a variable-bitrate MP3.)
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18:55:11 <boily> does frink support mp3/km?
18:55:57 <fizzie> Warning: undefined symbol "mp3".
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19:59:21 <Bike> http://c431376.r76.cf2.rackcdn.com/39056/fnins-07-00011-r2/image_m/fnins-07-00011-g001.jpg such fonts
20:01:44 <boily> what about the fonts?
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20:14:09 <boily> (0.13 on October 11!)
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20:53:11 <kmc> woo, found and fixed a refcounting bug
20:53:20 <kmc> boo, C++ libraries that do manual refcounting without smart pointers
20:53:55 <Bike> b-but... delete this... D:
20:54:45 <lambdabot> AnotherTest said 3h 51m 13s ago: Well, it seems logical to call those cosets obtained by right multiplication the right cosets. These are usually called left cosets though.
20:55:17 <kmc> it does indeed have essentially void unref() const { if (atomic_dec(&fRefCnt) == 1) delete this; }
20:55:26 <kmc> I'll let the sages debate whether "delete this" should be allowed within a const method.
20:55:27 <oerjan> @tell anothertest I consider both conventions completely logical, and have a hard time seeing how someone could consider one of them much more natural than the other.
20:56:06 <kmc> also, like, decrementing the refcount certainly wouldn't be, but it's declared "mutable"
20:56:32 <kmc> I guess one needs the ability to retain and release objects by const pointer, but still, ewwwwwww
20:57:42 <boily> the reason why me and valgrind have a hate-hate-hate relationship: I'm completely lost when it comes to deleting stuff in C++.
20:58:30 <oerjan> @tell After all, you either get a coset by left multiplication of a point by a subgroup, or by left multiplication of a subgroup by a point.
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20:59:02 <Bike> Is there a better way to clear that than /nick after
20:59:15 <olsner> I suspect delete this; is undefined behavior
20:59:21 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest After all, you either get a coset by left multiplication of a point by a subgroup, or by left multiplication of a subgroup by a point.
20:59:40 <olsner> (but probably of the undefined-behavior-that-always-works kind)
21:02:02 <kmc> olsner: even in a non-virtual method which doesn't call any virtual methods or access any instance data after "delete this"?
21:02:20 <kmc> it might very well still be undefined, but I don't think it *has* to be
21:02:53 <kmc> boily: what about it specifically?
21:03:29 <boily> kmc: either I leak inordinate amounts of memory, or I segfault trying to be over-eager freeing memory back.
21:03:41 <boily> I still haven't found the sweet spot of understanding what I'm doing.
21:04:16 <boily> in any case, time to BBQ. or something.
21:04:21 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
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21:05:53 <oerjan> let's just assume after will appreciate eir group theory lesson, if e ever logs on again.
21:06:02 <kmc> @tell boily C++ feels vastly more like a high level language if you use reference-counting smart pointers as much as possible
21:07:00 <Bike> what about algebra
21:07:17 <reynir> You are talking algebra?
21:09:06 <reynir> Is it related to the topic?
21:09:39 <Bike> nothing is related to the /topic
21:10:31 <oerjan> Bike: boily is related to the topic.
21:10:39 <Fiora> kmc: *reads wikipedia page on smart pointers* huh, I had no idea std::unique_ptr was a thing
21:10:43 <Fiora> that's really cool
21:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> last episode of it crowd is good; things chris o'dowd can do to his own face are awful
21:11:01 <Bike> oerjan: no, boily is related to roujo
21:11:41 <oerjan> reynir: no, it's just an old discussion that hadn't quite ended yet, so i and AnotherTest are sending lambdabot messages back and forth because we're not here at the same time.
21:12:30 <kmc> Fiora: and one of the big ideas in Rust is "what if we had something like unique_ptr, but the compiler actually enforces safe usage in every case"
21:12:44 <Fiora> oh, is there a reason it's not safe?
21:13:09 <oerjan> reynir: briefly, it's about how mathematicians haven't argued which kind of coset should be called left and which should be called right, and i and AnotherTest don't agree on whether there is an obviously correct convention (i don't think there is).
21:13:10 <kmc> a few reasons
21:13:21 <kmc> you can coerce it to a plain pointer / reference easily
21:13:36 <kmc> and you would do this when you want to call a function and pass it the object without transferring ownership
21:13:48 <kmc> but that function could stash away that raw pointer and use it after the object has been freed
21:13:56 <olsner> Fiora: "it's c++, of course it's not safe!"
21:14:38 <oerjan> Bike: no, boily is related to pouti.
21:14:48 <kmc> C++ kinda-sorta tries to be memory safe using a combination of language features and convention
21:14:53 <Bike> oerjan: i thought it was just because you multiply(element,other-element)
21:14:59 <kmc> and it totally falls over when people just treat it as "C with some extra junk" which is what they usually do
21:15:07 <Bike> of course i can never get cosets straight anyway ;_;
21:15:52 <Bike> kmc: "so rust is like C with uniqueness types added"
21:16:20 <kmc> Fiora: another reason is that there's no mutability guarantee; you can uniquely own something and yet some function you call mutates it
21:16:44 <oerjan> Bike: well the thing is, should the direction be decided by the side of the element or by the side of the other-element?
21:17:01 <kmc> in Rust, the root of an ownership tree decides globally whether that tree of objects is mutable or immutable
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21:17:26 <kmc> (the root is either a local variable or a garbage-collected box)
21:17:32 <Bike> oerjan: the element, since the other element is written related to a capital letter, whi ch is more improtant and central!!
21:17:52 <kmc> there's this issue in C++ (although I don't know that it really relates to unique pointers) where you modify a datastructure as you're iterating over it, and everything blows up
21:18:24 <Bike> i guess that makes sense though, insofar as terminology debates make sense
21:18:27 <Bike> (god i say "insofar" a lot)
21:18:46 <kmc> Rust prevents this because the "give me an iterator" method, and the iterator struct, will "borrow" the datastructure as an immutable borrowed pointer, and nobody else can mutate something while an immutable borrowed pointer to it exists
21:18:56 <Fiora> Insofar sounds like the name of a city, or a company
21:18:57 <kmc> (which is enforced statically, except in the case of those GC'd boxes)
21:18:58 <Fiora> Insofar Industries
21:19:17 <Bike> Fiora: i'll note that down for my cyborg ant production facilities shell corp
21:19:22 <Bike> kmc: sounds cool tho
21:19:24 <oerjan> Bike: AnotherTest thinks the opposite of you :)
21:19:35 <oerjan> and i think neither is obviously correct.
21:19:37 <Bike> oerjan: well anothertest is wrong. i hope this solves the problem
21:20:01 <oerjan> Bike: excellent, now go fix peace in the middle-east.
21:20:01 <Bike> i don't think i know how you'd verify that statically off the top of my head but that's probably just because i'm not thinking about it
21:20:25 <kmc> first you hire as many PL PhDs and grad students as you can
21:20:52 <olsner> Bike: just put it in the types and ... infer stuff
21:21:04 <Bike> i think i have insufficient resources for this algorithm
21:21:32 <kmc> Rust is neat cause it's a new language designed by people who have actually been paying attention to programming languages research in the past 40 years
21:22:30 <kmc> this confuses some Haskellers who assume that anyone in that position would produce Haskell exactly
21:22:43 <Bike> i hear haskell was set down from on high
21:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc can you... not use rust as a vantage point from which to complain about haskellers
21:25:41 <kmc> i don't do it that much
21:25:59 <kmc> I'm annoyed at how many Haskellers look at Rust and find one thing they don't like and immediately declare it to be garbage
21:26:06 <kmc> as though Haskell is so perfect in comparison
21:26:29 <kmc> they're both cool languages trying to do difficult (and vastly different) things and they both have their share of flaws
21:27:28 <kmc> but yes perhaps I should not just bring this up when nobody is advancing this view
21:27:56 <kmc> PH is so easily annoyed by me complaining about things ^__^
21:29:21 <oerjan> kmc: *- by me complaining about things
21:29:53 * kmc hugs Fiora
21:30:13 <kmc> are you annoyed by the damn kids who won't get off your lawn?
21:30:31 <oerjan> PH isn't old enough to have a lawn, or a cane to wave.
21:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i am if they are hugging each other or complaining about haskellers
21:31:28 <fizzie> oerjan, on the other hand, probably has several lawns and canes.
21:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> you're married, that makes you like twenty years older
21:32:17 <oerjan> i don't think i have a cane. maybe stored away somewhere. and i don't have my own lawn.
21:32:35 <kmc> i have a back yard but not a front lawn
21:32:47 <kmc> the front of my house consists of some stairs, and a tree which produces rain all the time, even when it is not raining
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21:33:49 <oerjan> having your own lawn may be rare when you don't live on the ground floor.
21:33:59 <Fiora> is PH jealous he doesn't get a hug
21:34:10 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
21:35:16 <fizzie> We have an "offering stone" in the yard-like thing between these two apartment buildings.
21:35:40 <oerjan> is that offering as in sacrifice?
21:35:47 <kmc> that's so metal
21:35:55 <fizzie> Though the sacrifices were bits of grain, AIUI.
21:35:55 <kmc> have you offered anything
21:36:00 <oerjan> "ofring" is norwegian for sacrifice.
21:36:00 <kmc> less metal
21:36:06 <kmc> (unless they are steel-cut oats?)
21:36:16 <fizzie> It's just a stone with a barely noticeable groove in it.
21:36:21 <kmc> oerjan: what if i put some grass turf on my balcony
21:36:23 <Bike> like, an oat cut up with steel?
21:36:30 <oerjan> while offer is more often "tilbud".
21:36:34 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel-cut_oats
21:37:00 <kmc> used to make a thing that's like oatmeal but people will tell you it's so much better
21:37:32 <fizzie> http://www.nba.fi/en/cultural_environment/archaeological_heritage/maintenance/maintained_sites/rapola/cupmarked_stones <- one of those except lot less obvious than what's in the picture.
21:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> are you complaining about pretentious middle class people kmc
21:37:59 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You put some grain on the stone, and I think then you're pretty much done.
21:38:01 <Bike> great, now i want a rock to offer blood to.
21:38:05 <kmc> fertility cults eh?
21:39:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I think that'd be bad form.
21:39:44 <Bike> the spirits usually come and grab food pretty fast, with their animal avatars
21:39:44 <fizzie> I'm certainly no expert.
21:39:56 <fizzie> But maybe I should put some of my breakfast oatmeal on the stone just in case it'd help.
21:42:13 * oerjan is reminded of this stone from the island my mother was from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:D%C3%B8nna_marble_phallus.jpg
21:43:10 <Bike> doesn't look much like a penis honestly
21:43:33 <olsner> oerjan: "tilbud" in norwegian is quite confusing, over here "tillbud" usually means accident or some kind of threatening or dangerous event
21:44:02 <olsner> (it can also mean something like warning, correction or order)
21:45:24 <Bike> no that was the only joke in there
21:46:05 <Bike> humorologist jim wazowski quoted a p-value of .0007 "that the joke was really just that shitty", according to sources
21:46:09 <oerjan> Bike: i vaguely recall you're not the first person to think it doesn't look much like one. but i'm sure the tourist board violently disagrees.
21:46:35 <Bike> they should erect a sign laying out their argument, with pictures
21:47:38 <oerjan> Heh heh heh, you said 'erect'
21:48:23 <fizzie> You can't spell "rectangle" without having an erection. Wait, that's not how it goes.
21:48:30 <kmc> well that's the thing
21:48:38 <kmc> it's stone and sticking straight up, so one would interpret it as an erect penis
21:48:52 <kmc> but the proportions would be quite unusual (though not totally outside phenotypic variation)
21:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the brilliant joke about which Bike was scoffing was that it would appear to be a disproportionately short one
21:49:51 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> You can't spell "rectangle" without having an erection. Wait, that's not how it goes.
21:49:59 <HackEgo> 1109) <fizzie> You can't spell "rectangle" without having an erection. Wait, that's not how it goes.
21:50:08 <oerjan> hm there's some lag somewhere.
21:50:35 <HackEgo> 463) <itidus20> combinatronics seems to be the mathematics chasing buddha's tail <itidus20> yeah.. he was a smart monkey that buddha
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21:51:40 <oerjan> i understand the buddha outsmarted monkeys.
21:52:55 <kmc> fizzie: YKINMK
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21:56:22 <fizzie> I had to Urban Dictionary that.
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22:01:28 <HackEgo> audioPhil: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:02:15 <kmc> fizzie: and now you know what it means!
22:02:21 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest <AnotherTest> underload to bf, has that been done yet? <-- yes, fungot's implementation used to be bf before fizzie wrote one directly in befunge.
22:02:21 <fungot> oerjan: it sounds like
22:02:34 <kmc> haha 'combinatronics'
22:02:36 <kmc> I miss itidus
22:03:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i am told i scared him away also and i can believe that
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22:04:42 <olsner> fungot: what sounds like what?
22:04:42 <fungot> olsner: not me. it's some other structure, are special in cl" helps me understand scheme better
22:06:01 <Bike> muscles uses hexagonal tiling. neato.
22:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> hexagonal tiling is the default if you squish a bunch of round things together...
22:07:28 <oerjan> <Koen_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-11-12 doesn't show here :( <-- s/\/log\///
22:08:15 <kmc> cool, apparently it is now very easy to write Rust programs which don't use the runtime system http://ix.io/8fH
22:08:29 <kmc> #[lang = "exchange_malloc"] says "this function implements the language feature of allocating ~-boxes"
22:08:43 <kmc> and you can provide such implementations just for the language features you use (here, no GC, no threads, etc)
22:08:49 <oerjan> @tell Koen_ <Koen_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-11-12 doesn't show here :( <-- s/log\///
22:10:24 <fizzie> @tell AnotherTest In my defense, the bf version -- under fungot's time limits -- barely managed to run (foo)S.
22:10:24 <fungot> fizzie: what do you mean because of maclisp? i realized it at 4 am last night
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22:11:52 <fizzie> kmc: Someone on ##asm was trying to port https://github.com/charliesome/rustboot to x86-64.
22:12:00 <kmc> interesting
22:12:09 <kmc> they should port it to Rust 0.8 (released yesterday) and ditch zero.rs, first
22:12:21 <kmc> (zero.rs was a workaround for the days when you had to implement *every* lang item)
22:12:53 <fizzie> This was the other day, so the querent is long gone, sadly.
22:13:40 <fizzie> Also I made a rust/bare metal "joke" I'm not very proud of.
22:14:06 <FreeFull> You could make a bear metal joke
22:14:14 <kmc> wow "querent" is quite the word
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22:17:45 <myname> kmc: oh, zero.rs isn't needed anymore?
22:18:09 <kmc> myname: apparently yes
22:18:10 <oerjan> rust, now abolishing zero
22:18:14 <kmc> I'm just learning this in #rust
22:18:20 <olsner> fizzie: is ##asm any fun?
22:18:37 <Bike> mumbles about getting banned
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22:18:53 <myname> kmc: yeah, i read you there pretty often
22:19:06 <kmc> myname: I might port one of my toy no-libc C programs to Rust
22:19:47 <kmc> it renders flame fractals and serves them from an embedded webserver
22:19:58 <kmc> multithreaded renderer
22:20:11 <kmc> and it embeds its own machine code in the flame fractals in a cutesy way
22:20:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: too far = London?
22:20:22 <myname> oh, rust 0.8 is already in the repos
22:20:40 <Bike> that's pretty far
22:20:40 <myname> and is actually much smaller than 0.7, wow
22:20:48 <Bike> is it sexual roleplay...
22:21:28 <kmc> 0.8 was released yesterday
22:22:08 <kmc> also maybe I should write a not-ridiculous flame fractal renderer using Rust and GLSL
22:22:30 <Bike> and without libc
22:22:44 <myname> rust without libc shouldn't be that hard
22:22:49 <kmc> my *other* weekend project that I also won't get around to doing this weekend is to build a public-key stream cipher based on Dual_EC_DRBG
22:23:03 <kmc> myname: yeah they're telling me it's easy
22:23:50 <myname> kmc: do you have an eye on how hard it is to make bindings for existing c libraries?
22:23:58 <kmc> a little bit
22:24:03 <myname> last time i had something to do with it was 0.5
22:24:09 <kmc> it's pretty easy: http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/tutorial-ffi.html
22:24:09 <myname> it was crappy back then
22:24:24 <kmc> my job involves a lot of bindings to C libraries but I haven't made one from scratch yet
22:24:28 <kmc> and they are big, weird C libraries
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22:25:19 <myname> well, i'm interested in termbox atm
22:25:26 <myname> should be pretty straightforward
22:25:34 <myname> biggest deal may be the struct
22:26:05 <kmc> yeah, there's no way to import a struct definition to Rust :/
22:26:08 <kmc> not in the language itself I mean
22:26:14 <kmc> there are bindings generators; I haven't used them
22:26:28 <myname> you have to make an identical struct
22:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, wait are you going to make an electricsheep that works in 1080p
22:27:31 <kmc> in realtime yes
22:27:33 <kmc> I sort of made one back in 2007
22:27:35 <kmc> but failed to release it
22:27:49 <fizzie> olsner: I'd say generally not. But then, they can't all be "#esoteric"s, you know?
22:27:51 <kmc> even a 2007 graphics card could render decent looking flame fractals at 4096 x 4096 x 60fps
22:27:59 <kmc> it's a very GPU-able algorithm
22:28:40 <elliott> frames per second, the third dimension
22:29:16 <Bike> time is just another spatial dimension, maaaaaan.
22:29:28 <Bike> (so frequency must be one too,, like how spatial patterns are)
22:31:53 * oerjan hits Bike with a metric signature
22:33:36 <oerjan> Bike: the time dimension has opposite sign to the space dimensions in the signature
22:34:26 <olsner> would it if it's a spatial dimension?
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22:45:28 <olsner> fungot: what's your metric signature?
22:45:29 <fungot> olsner: i'm an idiot"? why not just
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23:09:30 <olsner> fizzie: it's certainly no #esoteric so far
23:10:08 <fizzie> olsner: "So far" is a reasonably representative sample. (But occasionally there are still interesting things.)
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23:17:41 <oerjan> Insofar Industries: Representative samples for the masses
23:18:35 <Bike> codu logs still busted
23:19:15 <oerjan> well ok maybe the formatting i keep hearing about
23:20:01 <oerjan> in fact the url complained about earlier was wrong, anyway :P
23:24:15 <elliott> oerjan: it wasn't, it was the URL to the formatted log
23:24:36 <Bike> nothing is true
23:34:23 <oerjan> elliott: oh! why is that in a different directory.
23:34:52 <elliott> because log/ is actually a CGI script, I think.
23:35:25 <oerjan> which script is broken.
23:35:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi
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23:36:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access irclogs: No such file or directory
23:36:24 <HackEgo> _ai \ _corewars \ _esoteric \ _esoteric-chess-variants \ _esoteric-minecraft \ _esoteric_shadow \ _\FRIends*foR*evEr\ \ _FRIends*foR*evEr \ _glogbot \ index.php \ log \ log.css \ log.js \ _plof \ raw \ _scapegoat \ stalker.php \ _weaaM
23:36:44 <oerjan> `ls -l /var/irclogs/log
23:36:46 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
23:36:51 <oerjan> `run ls -l /var/irclogs/log
23:36:53 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 15 Aug 20 2012 /var/irclogs/log -> ../html/log.php
23:37:34 <oerjan> `run ls -l /var/html/log.php
23:37:37 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/html/log.php: No such file or directory
23:38:14 <Bike> perhaps we have discovered the problem
23:38:16 <oerjan> hm i guess maybe it only mounts the irclogs part
23:38:25 <oerjan> so not shown in HackEgo
23:38:50 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sb
23:39:41 <HackEgo> none on /var/irclogs type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/var/irclogs/)
23:41:17 <oerjan> and the url contains no part corresponding to the irclogs
23:41:36 <oerjan> so we can probably not see it.
23:42:23 <oerjan> or whatever it's called.
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00:49:08 <zzo38> I wrote some idea I have now to make HWPL (the older ones had some mistakes): http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/hwpl.txt
00:49:41 <zzo38> I didn't write about expressions and operators yet, and there are probably other things missing too.
00:49:55 <zzo38> Such as, on the outer-level statements, ROM-level statements, etc
00:51:30 <zzo38> And then, I suppose, a RAM statement for use in a module code to specify internal RAM.
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03:36:27 <zzo38> Oops there was some connection error
03:38:20 <Bike> that's not a very good greeting.
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05:38:54 <fizzie> Hrm. I made a script thing to save lm-sensors temperature data of this IRC box in a file, but turns out it's impressively boring: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130928-tmp.png
05:44:48 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130928-tmp2.png -- also including the non-coretemp sensors that I think have wrong resistor values; but they're not any more interesting either.
06:11:41 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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07:10:13 <Sgeo> This talk I'm watching just implied that compilability is an indicativeness of understandability
07:10:19 <Sgeo> My Tcl-loving self feels insulted
07:11:15 <Bike> In some sense compilability /is/ understandability, by a thing that isn't a human. I guess.
07:11:42 <Bike> Also a thing that's not very good at math or hitting on people.
07:12:36 <zzo38> Stop hitting people with no good purpose!
07:13:42 <Bike> The preposition is pretty important there, man.
07:14:21 <fizzie> 7. hit -- (a connection made via the internet to another website; "WordNet gets many hits from users worldwide") -- I'm sure that example sentence was selected entirely at random.
07:15:15 <Bike> whyd you look it up
07:15:40 <fizzie> I was hoping for funny uncommon meanings.
07:16:03 <fizzie> Sadly, there was just the boring.
07:18:00 <impomatic> Has anyone tried TCL Robots? http://tclrobots.org
07:18:42 <fizzie> "III. To aim, direct one's aim or course. -- 18. intr. To aim, seek, strive. Obs. rare -- (1380) Pearl l. 132 Þe wyȝ..Hittez to haue ay more & more."
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07:19:33 <fizzie> Huh. Spam with the subject line "He expertly blended together acoustic and electronic instruments" and the (entire) body text "Elevation lines are added to the plot to help delineate changes in elevation. In July 2000, UZT 1."
07:19:38 <fizzie> Wonder what purpose that serves.
07:19:58 <fizzie> No MIME or HTML versions or anything.
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07:21:13 <Bike_> zzo38: i see hwpl has primitive ram and muxes.
07:22:32 <Sgeo> impomatic: that seems awefully like a million other games that I also have not played
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07:23:17 <zzo38> Bike_: Yes, that is some things it has. Is that OK like the way it is?
07:24:50 <Bike> mm, i just wonder about it being primitive. it seems like something one could reasonably implement oneself.
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07:24:58 <Bike> or having a system with no ram, etc.
07:25:53 <zzo38> Maybe RAM doesn't need to be primitive, although FPGAs generally have primitive muxes so that is useful for at least that purpose it seems.
07:27:02 <Bike> why limit yourself to fpgas right
07:27:14 <zzo38> It isn't supposed to be limit to FPGAs.
07:27:29 <zzo38> However, it is one possible use.
07:28:10 <Bike> anyway, what i meant is i was waondering if those sorts of things could be library sorts of things. presumably a synthesizer could choose to implement such a library thing with a physical mux, or not, depending on available hardware, etc.
07:28:51 <zzo38> Yes, perhaps that can be right. That thing "depending on available hardware" is what the MODELS command is for, so yes I suppose it can be done.
07:37:13 <zzo38> Therefore you are probably correct.
07:39:13 <impomatic> Hmmm... I haven't played any games apart from programming games / text adventures for about 15 years. Is there anything I ought to try? (apart from the obvious two, Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress)
07:39:34 <zzo38> Maybe the CGA Collection? I don't know.
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07:41:02 <zzo38> CGA Collection is a set of public domain DOS games including source-codes.
07:41:26 <zzo38> (Therefore you will need some way to run DOS programs on whatever computer you have)
07:41:36 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP
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07:58:31 <zzo38> Does it work? Do you like this?
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11:12:02 <Koen_> @tell oerjan I guess if we make a page that redirects to Recursion, we can make the "see also" recursion link to that page
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13:59:00 <Taneb> I am no longer in Hexham
13:59:05 <Taneb> I am no longer in Hexham
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13:59:24 <olsner> Taneb: welcome to the real world
13:59:43 <Taneb> olsner, well, I'm in York
13:59:46 <olsner> do you know how to feed yourself?
14:00:14 <Taneb> I have loads of Italian biscuit-y things
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14:03:14 <Taneb> olsner, you know more about this than I do, can I feed myself with them?
14:03:57 <olsner> biscuits will keep you going for a short while, I wouldn't recommend the camera
14:04:10 <olsner> better to sell it and buy more biscuits
14:05:46 <Taneb> These are the biscuits: https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1266812_579131395456452_1244635056_o.jpg
14:07:41 <olsner> beware that the box is deceptively big - most of it is air, not food
14:07:59 <Taneb> By the way, I took that picture with my camera
14:10:26 <olsner> as you've seen, the camera can be useful to gain information about everyday objects through the internet
14:10:57 <Taneb> Hmm, in that case I will keep it and use it to help identify potential food
14:12:22 <reynir> Someone should make a web service where you upload a photo and people will vote on wether it's food or not
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16:10:16 <Taneb> Well, I am not the first person in my flat to get locked out
16:25:36 <Taneb> Only time will tell
16:25:43 <Koen_> you got locked out *in* your flat?
16:26:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 18h 17m 18s ago: <Koen_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-11-12 doesn't show here :( <-- s/log\///
16:26:34 <Koen_> that's s/\/log\///
16:30:22 <Taneb> Koen_, the flat has locked rooms
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17:39:48 <kmc> there was a guy who used Mosh to escape from a broken elevator and blogged about it
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17:53:56 <Koen_> kmc: is that a pun or a fact?
17:54:54 <Taneb> That is a fact, I read the blog post
17:55:09 <Taneb> I don't think Mosh would have helped in this situation
17:55:58 <kmc> what would the pun be?
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18:16:34 <kmc> a chicken coöp?
18:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> forget every time you have seen boily use the diaeresis please
18:17:20 <kmc> diæretic ænema
18:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (i mean this cop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Co-operative_Group)
18:20:20 <zzo38> Since we managed to beat the demon without too much difficulty (due to many stupid mistakes they made), I suggested to the DM something, the demon's brain is cursed and now my character is cursed and cannot automatically heal (so spells have to be used), and a few other things (the curse can still be removed normally, but then I hungry again), and furthermore they will resurrect the demon and we have to beat them a second time... Do you like this?
18:24:00 <zzo38> Do you have other ideas?
18:24:48 <Phantom_Hoover> what if the demon turns out to be the demon's brain's father
18:25:21 <kmc> apparently in addition to hating street musicians Charles Babbage also hated kids who play with hoops in the street http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_rolling#British_Empire
18:25:35 <kmc> http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=5
18:26:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: OK, if the demon turns out to be the demon's brain's father, well it doesn't seem to make a difference
18:26:36 <zzo38> (Maybe you know otherwise)
18:26:46 <zzo38> What kind of difference?
18:27:33 <zzo38> I don't see an ethical difference either.
18:28:59 <zzo38> Well, they aren't.
18:31:36 <kmc> 'He once counted all the broken panes of glass of a factory, publishing in 1857 a "Table of the Relative Frequency of the Causes of Breakage of Plate Glass Windows": Of 464 broken panes, 14 were caused by "drunken men, women or boys"'
18:33:43 <kmc> here's the table of causes of breakage http://i.imgur.com/OsoIsI6.png
18:34:01 <kmc> I can only assume that HANKO is a piece of IKEA furniture that fizzie is now trapped inside
18:34:23 <fizzie> No, it's probably the southernmost city in Finland.
18:34:46 <fizzie> Well, perhaps not. But close, anyway.
18:34:56 <pikhq> And as we know, "city in Finland" is code for IKEA furniture.
18:35:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i have 3 optional modules: automata and formal languages; further automata and formal languages; and algorithmic graph theory
18:36:09 <kmc> what's in HANKO
18:36:15 <kmc> (also help why are we capitalizing it)
18:36:49 <kmc> i wonder if there is a ferry to Hiiumaa and whether that is a nice place to go or not
18:36:53 <fizzie> Southernmost tip of continental Finland, says Wikipedia.
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18:37:10 <Phantom_Hoover> they sound amazing but last time i tried any non core maths modules it ended in disaster
18:37:30 <kmc> look around you, just look around you, have you worked out what we're looking for? it's automata!
18:38:37 <fizzie> My father's been sailing around Hiiumaa, I think. (Well, it's kind of a logical place to stop at when going round Finland-Estonia-Sweden-Åland-Finland.)
18:39:44 <atehwa> kmc: yes, from Rohukla IIRC; and at least Krdla is a very nice town.
18:40:01 <kmc> that's a nice long sailing trip
18:40:12 <kmc> is the water calm up there or no?
18:40:27 <atehwa> calm? = does not have waves?
18:40:36 <fizzie> It's not as choppy as proper oceans, I believe.
18:40:48 <atehwa> choppy = has big waves?
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18:41:21 <fizzie> But there are certainly even strong storms now and then, I guess generally you just keep track of the current forecast and stay a few extra days if it looks too bad.
18:41:25 <atehwa> with normal wind the wave height is around 1,5m
18:42:59 <fizzie> The Turku Archipelago is I think kind of impressive as far as "lots of small islands" things go.
18:43:14 <fizzie> 20000 islands, says Google.
18:43:29 <fizzie> It looks very spotty on a map.
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20:36:25 <zzo38> They really draw too many cards; I have 27 remaining in draw pile and they have zero.
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20:36:32 <zzo38> This happens really often.
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20:48:07 <oerjan> the recent spate of dead links has made me wonder: if esolangs.org is the only thing linking to an external page, and as it uses the nofollow attribute, will the web archive archive it at all?
20:48:20 <lambdabot> Koen_ said 9h 36m 17s ago: I guess if we make a page that redirects to Recursion, we can make the "see also" recursion link to that page
20:49:02 <oerjan> @tell Koen_ the problem is, that's mutual recursion, which is a different joke.
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20:50:48 <Bike> as in archive.org?
20:51:32 <oerjan> what made me wonder about it is that the most recent dead link has only been crawled once, today, and i suspect that was because Rdebath checked if it was there.
20:53:13 <Bike> does wayback machine's bot even care about nofollow, i thought it was for spammers
20:53:35 <oerjan> ...spammers don't care, do they.
20:53:52 <mnoqy> even spammers gotta respect The Rules
20:54:20 <Bike> as in, nofollow keeps links from influencing google results, so spamers have no reason to spam links.
20:55:11 <oerjan> i'd discuss this more but the neighbor has left their dog alone at home and the barking is making by brain shut down.
20:55:23 <zzo38> No, for one thing Google isn't the only one, and mirrors may not have nofollow
20:57:07 <oerjan> of course the dog happens to only bark when i'm considering discussing something that requires my brain working. i blame demons.
20:57:32 <oerjan> or maybe poltergeists.
20:59:10 <Sgeo> "I must have food, or I'll die"
20:59:19 <Sgeo> Is there someone who this isn't true of?
20:59:30 <oerjan> i tried watching the stars this evening. i think this part of the city has more light pollution than where i used to live.
20:59:34 <Bike> Sgeo: Breatharians
20:59:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, there is reports of such things; I don't know how valid they are although at least some of them aren't valid.
21:00:01 <oerjan> Sgeo: if you consider water and/or carbon dioxide food, then no.
21:00:50 <oerjan> and i guess even plants need additional things like phosphorus.
21:01:36 <oerjan> Sgeo: obvious answer, anything that wasn't alive to start with.
21:04:57 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: What's with this acting
21:05:01 <Sgeo> (in Home on the Remains)
21:05:23 <Sgeo> Is it supposed to be deliberate, because thats just how these aliens talk?
21:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> the next episode is also weird and not very interesting, and the episode after is very good
21:23:54 <quintopia> the good episodes are the one where zan shows up again as the bad guy in the psycho game, and the one where john is crazy and acting like cartoons
21:31:53 <quintopia> which episode is it where the warrior guy survives deep space without a pressure suit for like a minute without dying? is that the first one?
21:35:00 <Sgeo> I've seen that ep
21:35:17 <Sgeo> First season, it's the one where Moya gets pregnant iirc
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21:35:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: Zhaan can be scary
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21:38:42 <copumpkin> https://www.usenix.org/conference/woot13/page-fault-weird-machine-lessons-instruction-less-computation
21:39:00 <Sgeo> That was more focused on Aeryn
21:39:09 <Sgeo> I don't really remember what Zhaan did in that episode
21:39:46 <Phantom_Hoover> well she was all "god aeryn you really are a shit" (despite helping cut pilot's arm off a season earlier)
21:42:33 <quintopia> why is she (the zhaan actress) the only one who shows up at conventions?
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21:46:38 <Sgeo> I just read about it, and now I'm spoiled
21:48:38 <quintopia> tell me, though i've watched the whole thing, because i've forgotten most of it
21:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> well she had some reaction to all the blue bodypaint, and it ended up making her kidneys bleed
21:50:59 <quintopia> i heard it was affecting her skin as well
21:51:12 <quintopia> but yeah, bleeding kidneys is a good reason to leave the show
21:51:23 <Phantom_Hoover> every report i've heard has placed emphasis upon the kidneys
21:51:39 <oerjan> did she start replacing nouns and verbs by a single word?
21:52:39 <quintopia> oerjan: what xyzzy xyzzy xyzzy would xyzzy?
21:57:54 <oerjan> quintopia: modulo still using correct grammar, mind
21:59:37 <oerjan> i am afraid my xyzzy is a bit rusty.
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23:07:06 <olsner> fungot: please summarize
23:07:06 <fungot> olsner: she's working for the same reason that i may never know
23:08:34 <olsner> if fungot may never know I shall never know either
23:08:35 <fungot> olsner: i cannot disagree, but so does
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23:19:37 <quintopia> what the hell's fungot that I don't?
23:19:37 <fungot> quintopia: i was trying to get you even high enough not to erase fnord text?
23:20:15 <oerjan> fungot: something something kmc
23:20:15 <fungot> oerjan: ( writes stallings) to procedure, got 2
23:20:18 <olsner> what does fungot not do?
23:20:19 <fungot> olsner: of course, the define is also wrong :) there's probably an opengl antialiasing feature i should use plt modules for that in 2.5!
23:21:21 <fungot> olsner: to use the char for naming " combinations" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord ( to which you copy previously executed code. probably one of my fnord nick. maybe i'll ask later.
23:21:47 <olsner> it went downhill from the summary, I think
23:22:04 <oerjan> olsner: he doesn't give us up, he doesn't let us down, he doesn't run around and desert us.
23:22:23 <fungot> olsner: where build-hierarchy is the macro system will make it unrealistic to adapt to pre-osx. i finally found the one. read it not long after it isn't true the site is crap
23:22:38 <oerjan> olsner: on alternate sundays.
23:23:17 <olsner> apparently fungot "finally found the one", so I'm happy for 'em either way
23:23:18 <fungot> olsner: i was just repeating commonly heard phrases over here? anybody still alive? does he mean by the general form of capitalization.
23:24:01 <oerjan> itt fungot admits to using cliches
23:24:02 <fungot> oerjan: the lecture vids are outdated but nice to see t on other architectures. good maintainer :)
23:24:31 <quintopia> fungot: what's your opinion of the Baha Men?
23:24:32 <fungot> quintopia: beauty is in the c faq is stupidly inefficient then. :)
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23:39:49 <FreeFull> We need more concatenative languages
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23:44:48 <oerjan> clearly concatenative languages should form a monoid.
23:50:26 <Koen_> cpressey has one or two
23:51:00 <Koen_> wait, do you mean the set of concatenative languages should form a monoid? or every concatenative language should form a monoid?
23:51:41 <FreeFull> Unfortunately concatenativety + higher level functions means you have to do quoting
23:51:54 <FreeFull> Which you don't have to do with something like Haskell
00:05:18 <oerjan> Koen_: the former. the latter is automatic.
00:06:01 <oerjan> FreeFull: lambdas are sort of quoting for this purpose.
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00:21:54 <FreeFull> oerjan: Yeah but you can use partial application to avoid lambdas
00:22:57 <oerjan> need parentheses though
00:24:46 <oerjan> although either jot or iota manages to have just one function and left to right application give all of ski.
00:28:08 <oerjan> jot is close except it's reverse application.
00:30:13 <oerjan> there's probably some set of combinators that would allow it though.
00:31:55 <oerjan> (also not just one function _and_ no parentheses, that was definitely a brain fart.)
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01:13:08 <oerjan> did you see this yet http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24232896
01:13:32 * oerjan is a bit lagged on his reddit catchup.
01:16:01 <oerjan> (it's about the first carbon nanotube computer.)
01:16:21 <oerjan> it's a little bit strapped for memory.
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01:25:33 <zzo38> I tried to embed ATLAST into a program but it doesn't seems to work; I get the error "This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way. Please contact the application's support team for more information."
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01:27:03 <zzo38> Do you know what this message is?
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01:27:59 <quintopia> zzo38: it needs to be deinitialized properly?
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01:31:28 <zzo38> quintopia: I see no documentation about deinitialization.
01:36:24 <zzo38> The example doesn't include any deinitialization.
01:37:08 -!- kmc has set topic: Ultra Pattern Recognition: Sliced Pineapple: Small Umbrella Version:: | PDF still available during construction work: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | the boily at the end of all things.
01:37:11 <zzo38> It is a Forth-like system for embedding into another program.
01:39:04 <oerjan> kmc: why this colonialism?
01:40:29 <myname> Slaves to Armok: God of Blood: Chapter II: Dwarf fortress
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01:42:16 <zzo38> I am trying to make a programming language for text adventure games that compiles into Frolg assembly language (including support for embedding arbitrary assembly language codes, even macros), and with some other optimizations too, which other Z-machine compilers lack. I try to think of what it should be done with! Things I try don't work for some reasons.
01:45:58 <kmc> "named after a deity in dragslay, himself named for a variable named "arm_ok" that counted the number of limbs the player still had attached"
01:47:21 <oerjan> i assume the deity was good at decrementing that
01:49:04 <zzo38> Decrementing? Won't it possibly be better to keep track of which ones using a bit field (unless you have a bunch of all same limbs without sides and stuff like that, I suppose)?
01:50:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nbna6/oh_hai_mark_greg_sestero_mark_from_the_room_here/
01:51:58 <oerjan> armok, bit twiddling your arms
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02:01:12 <kmc> limbs ^= 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF;
02:02:09 <oerjan> kmc: i think that is a trick hindu gods like to use on themselves.
02:11:05 <FreeFull> zzo38: Write the compiler for the language in haskell?
02:11:15 <kmc> limbs >>= 6;
02:11:25 <kmc> FreeFull: what?
02:11:38 <kmc> oh *reads further up*
02:11:51 <kmc> maybe I ought to
02:12:02 <copumpkin> what are these limbs of which you speak then?
02:14:28 <oerjan> we could tell you, but it cost you an arm and a leg.
02:19:01 <kmc> oh I get it "*colon*ialism"
02:25:20 <Koen_> that costs aleg? that's alot
02:26:39 <oerjan> kmc: i suggest daily brain stretching
02:27:17 <zzo38> FreeFull: That was in fact one of my ideas; actually, making a Haskell EDSL. However even then there are a few problems (which perhaps can be worked around, though): one is the slowness of a Haskell compiler/program, another is the syntax (although it can be worked around by creating a preprocessor), one is the inconvenience of declaring unique keys (the only way I know is Typeable, and having to declare a type and instance for each one can be inco
02:28:20 <FreeFull> zzo38: Rather than making it an EDSL, you can make it a full-fledged language
02:30:58 <zzo38> FreeFull: Sure, but then I would need to implement nearly everything, and it could be done just as well in C too; I was going to embed ATLAST but not only does it not work but also seems a bit too klugy.
02:31:31 <FreeFull> zzo38: Haskell has very good parser combinators and such though
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02:31:57 <zzo38> I was also going to try to make it based on LYSP (a Lisp implementation), although that isn't designed to embed and it is difficult to work with a Lisp system.
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02:32:54 <FreeFull> Also Haskell has nice LLVM bindings
02:33:18 <zzo38> FreeFull: O, I know those things. Still, basing it on such programmable systems can provide macro capabilities more easily, too.
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02:34:05 <zzo38> FreeFull: I have seen those (although have never used them), but it isn't relevant here; I am not trying to compile into LLVM. I am compiling into Frolg assembly language, which in turn compiles into Z-machine code.
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02:42:29 <oerjan> the native codes are REST-less
02:47:34 <zzo38> Has anyone else done text-adventure systems with Haskell? (whether it is native code or not)
02:50:23 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/ZMachine
02:52:23 <zzo38> That is an interpreter; not a compiler though.
02:53:02 <zzo38> (It also may be defective; most Z-machine interpreters are.)
02:54:03 <Gracenotes> ah. well, just take the dual, as they say.
02:55:04 <zzo38> For one thing that won't work here; I was looking to see if anyone had text-adventure authoring systems in Haskell (whether EDSL or not, native or not), so that I may learn how it is done.
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03:15:01 <zzo38> See http://ifwiki.org/index.php/Z-machine_Hacks for some mention of some of the kind of optimizations and tricks which could be performed.
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04:52:03 <shachaf> oerjan: I think fungot was just trying to figure out whether a semigroup was a monoid.
04:52:03 <fungot> shachaf: who's viktor yushchenko? right?). compare the ambition with what guile is today.
04:53:43 <shachaf> oerjan: ("finally found the one")
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05:28:27 <Sgeo> A game that I liked when I was younger (but wouldn't bother with now, it's just a version of breakout) apparently is by a company that is focused on "games for Christians"
05:28:27 <Sgeo> http://tcrf.net/Blast_Thru
05:28:38 <Sgeo> And was originally called Bibleball
05:28:56 <zzo38> I made a Christian pinball game once.
05:29:23 <Sgeo> And I still can't find a list of powerups
05:29:45 <kmc> bibleballs
05:31:50 <kmc> v. painful condition
05:32:06 <zzo38> I won a game of Pokemon Card while I had only two cards remaining in my draw pile and opponent has zero (I also picked up my last side card on the same turn).
05:33:28 <zzo38> Hay! Why is his name written entirely hiragana on one screen, but on this screen it is partially in kanakana and partially in hiragana?
05:33:58 <Sgeo> zzo38: Christian pinball game?
05:34:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I made one once in Visual Pinball, although it is an old version and only works in Windows (the game itself is open-source although Visual Pinball itself is MAME license)
05:34:57 <Sgeo> In what way was it Christian?
05:35:24 <zzo38> Mainly the labels on everything.
05:35:58 <zzo38> Both the labels and some of the rules were suggested by a catechism teacher, and then I implemented it and put in a few other things to improve it.
05:38:02 <zzo38> The ball saver is labeled "Forgiveness", the outlanes are labeled "Sacrifice", the bumpers are labeled "Bible", "Mass", "Prayer", "Eucharist", and "Pennance", the extra ball light is labeled "Resurrection", the drop target banks are labeled "Advent", "Christmas", "Lent", and "Easter", and there are rollover targets in the form of the sign of the cross.
05:43:05 <zzo38> There is a mode display to tell you how many times each bumper and sign of cross has to be hit to advance. Once it is done, the next drop target bank is available; the drop targets won't drop unless the bank is the active mode. Once all banks are dropped, you get an extra ball.
05:44:09 <zzo38> I made it because someone else made a pagan pinball game; therefore I should make the Christian pinball game too.
05:44:33 <zzo38> And then someone else suggested, if we have pagan and Christian, then perhaps there should also be the Zen pinball game, and that one would be flipperless.
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06:13:01 <zzo38> Someone once used the lack of Christ's second coming as an argument for the existence of other sapient life in the other solar systems.
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06:33:09 <zzo38> I have read about catechism of Catholic church in a few different books. They say that atheism is a mortal sin, but then mortal sin is defined. There are a few variations in how it is presented, but using the three points in Wikipedia, atheism fails the second condition therefore it isn't a mortal sin, and that is contradictory!
06:34:14 <Bike> "It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context)"
06:34:31 <kmc> zzo38: yes, organized religion is almost always inconsistent
06:35:00 <Bike> i don't think atheism fails that, assuming you mean the looked-at-religion-and-said-nah kind of atheism
06:35:11 <zzo38> (Although I am not sure that the parenthetical comment there is correct, but I will consider it irrelevant for now)
06:35:56 <zzo38> Bike: It does; another part of the Catholic catechism says you cannot believe unless you really do believe; being forced to believe if you don't actually believe it is worthless.
06:36:30 <Bike> I mean most atheists are pretty aware that if Catholics or whoever are right and the atheist is wrong, the atheist is goin to hell.
06:37:17 <kmc> zzo38: makes life extra hard for inquisitors
06:40:53 <zzo38> Bike: Not necessarily, and anyways that doesn't make it right. (Furthermore, if you throw dice, it comes up even, and you have to say if it is even or odd, but they say they will cut your arm off if you say it is even, that doesn't make it odd.)
06:41:16 <Bike> i have absolutely no idea what you are saying and it rules
06:42:41 <zzo38> There is also Pascal's wager (which is that believing in God is a good bet) and the atheist's wager (the reverse); my opinion is that both are invalid. (Also, these wagers won't make you believe or not, but that isn't relevant to their validity.)
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06:47:44 <zzo38> However, I am not atheist; I am panendeist (and these beliefs have nothing to do with the wagers). However, I do not believe atheism to be a sin. I am also ignostic, so that doesn't make atheism necessarily wrong either; it is OK to be atheist if you want to, but please consider it correctly.
06:48:11 <Bike> what if considering it correctly is a sin
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06:49:34 <zzo38> Well, I don't think so. Whether you believe in God or not, you should think of it for yourself.
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06:49:49 <zzo38> (Either way is OK, as far as I am concerned.)
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06:53:15 <zzo38> The Catholic church also calls agnosticism a mortal sin. That certainly does not meet the second condition, though.
06:54:39 <zzo38> In some cases it might not even meet the third condition.
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07:38:40 <zzo38> Did you make a poll in here in case you are atheist, panendeist, or whatever?
07:39:01 <zzo38> See how common it is in esoteric programming.
07:40:03 <zzo38> I do not think that counts???
07:40:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you read _The Little Prince_?
07:42:15 <zzo38> No, I haven't heard of it
07:42:36 <shachaf> Really? It's one of the most famous books.
07:43:09 <zzo38> I didn't know that.
07:43:35 <shachaf> Well, one of the best-selling, at least.
07:44:09 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books says so.
07:46:18 <Taneb> shachaf, zzo38, have either of you read House of Leaves?
07:47:27 <kmc> i believe in a thing called love
07:47:50 <Taneb> A very interesting read
07:48:26 <shachaf> They're called leaves because they leave the trees in the fall. Which is why it's called fall.
07:50:19 <Taneb> But can you build a house out of them?
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08:39:29 <Taneb> Anyone know a good algorithm for deciding the minimum nodes to remove from a graph such that it does not contain a certain graph as a subgraph?
08:40:08 <Taneb> Possibly specialized to a connected region of a grid
08:49:55 <zzo38> I don't know any such algorithm. What are you using this for? I would be interested to know such algorithm too.
08:51:12 <Taneb> zzo38, I am using it for a battleships AI
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09:20:49 <impomatic> Not much science fiction on that list of books.
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09:30:50 <Taneb> zzo38, what would that algorithm even be called
09:31:11 <zzo38> I don't know that either.
09:32:35 <Taneb> I thought of a way of doing it, but it relies on the subgraph isomorphism problem
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09:40:51 <FreeFull> I bet that algorithm is at the very least NP-complete, if not outside of NP
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09:48:51 <Jafet> fungot is outside of NP.
09:48:51 <fungot> Jafet: don't think this can be extremely helpful in debugging complex macros, but i think that extremes in this area
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10:49:22 <fizzie> fungot: *You* are the extreme here.
10:49:22 <fungot> fizzie: huh? fnord?) it works just fine on freedos, though. exceptions don't have to
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13:27:05 <ais523> `welcome AwfulProgrammer
13:27:11 <HackEgo> AwfulProgrammer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:27:18 <HackEgo> Ghoul__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:59:39 <ais523> fizzie: I got the reverse DLL imports working on Windows
15:00:05 <ais523> it's less flexible than in Linux; the difference is that on Windows, if you're importing a symbol, you need to know which executable or library you're importing it from
15:00:16 <ais523> whereas on Linux, you just have dependencies and imported symbols and there doesn't need to be a correlation
15:01:11 <ais523> but the technique I used is simpler than either yours or the one recommended by Microsoft: I just create an import library directly from each set of object files (which doesn't require their dependencies to be in place), followed by creating libraries/executables from the object files, linking against the import ibraries
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15:41:41 <ais523> "checking how to print strings... printf"
15:41:52 <ais523> now I'm scared as to why configure even thought of checking that
15:41:58 <ais523> and what result it expected to find
15:42:12 <ais523> I guess it might be shell printf rather than C printf, that'd be a little snaer
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15:42:53 <fizzie> "checking how to print strings... print -r" says Google, so that sounds likely.
15:46:52 <ais523> I'm compiling SDL2 from source
15:47:07 <ais523> because it's not packaged yet
15:49:38 <Taneb> I dropped my glasses this afternoon and they bent and actually fit better now
15:52:12 <Taneb> Also, I'm tempted to start a "Taneb's crazy maths facts" blog
15:52:18 <Taneb> Need a short name for it
15:54:54 <Taneb> I... I think I've just registered mathsfacts.tumblr.com
15:55:24 <ais523> Taneb: because all the porn names were taken?
15:58:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've got the first three or so sorted
15:59:42 <Taneb> Wait for me to upload them
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16:01:36 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go.
16:01:56 <Taneb> I am quite prolific, it seems
16:02:11 <Taneb> I'm going to be talking about the torus in maybe the fourth or fifth post
16:02:23 <ais523> what made you think of inventing an automatic squirrel feeder?
16:02:39 <olsner> so the first three are D-modules, Go and automatic squirrel feeder math?
16:02:40 <ais523> hmm… at my secondary school, there used to be a squirrel that lived inside the ceiling of the Library
16:02:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oh what the fuck, chrome removed the 'previously closed tabs' button?
16:03:00 <ais523> and sunbathed under the fluorescent light-bulbs from time to time
16:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> all so i could have a google search bar on the new tab page
16:03:24 <Phantom_Hoover> you know, to go with the one that doubles for an address bar
16:03:26 <ais523> the person in charge of the building used to catch it with traps baited with Bounty bars and release it in the nearby forest
16:03:31 <ais523> but it tended to find its way back
16:04:07 <ais523> (I live quite close to the edge of Birmingham, and the school I went to was even closer; you could find fields with cows in within a minute's walk from it)
16:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> wasn't there a time when google weren't pissing away all their goodwill trying to build a social media empire
16:06:36 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'M MAKING CUTE LITTLE GRAPHICS
16:06:54 <Taneb> GRAPHICS + FACTS > FACTS
16:07:24 <Taneb> BE PATIENT MY CHILD
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16:46:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: previously closed tabs are in the menu now
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16:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if i don't want the last one i closed...
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17:14:52 <zzo38> I think would be better address bar, that URLs entered are treated as relative by default; other commands entered there (such as search) start with a colon (no separate search bar is needed), and starting with :/ can abbreviate for file:///
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17:15:51 <ais523> zzo38: normally if I want to open an HTML file on my own filesystem, I give it as an argument to the web browser
17:15:57 <zzo38> (And on Windows you can use a single letter and : to automatically expand to a file: URL, since no URI schemes have just one letter, I think; even if it is, using a letter and :\ can unambiguate it)
17:16:01 <ais523> rather than entering it in the address bar
17:16:10 <ais523> unless I'm using it often enough that it's worth bookmarking
17:16:12 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but maybe it is already open
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17:16:27 <ais523> actually, my homepage on Epiphany is /tmp/t.html
17:16:41 <ais523> which is the name I use for temporary HTML files that I've just generated from some other source
17:17:03 <ais523> (I use too many different browsers, probably)
17:17:26 <zzo38> I use about:blank as the homepage
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17:37:29 <zzo38> About the embeding programming language, well although ATLAST doesn't work I know that Pico-C works since I have used it before, so I can use that
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17:47:27 <ais523> /huge/ advantage for darcs over git: "darcs recor" is accepted, "git commi" isn't
17:49:47 <reynir> We don't like git commies around here
17:50:08 <Taneb> I'm on the IWC forum for the first time inaaaaages
17:56:20 <Taneb> Oh sorry, wrong channel
18:07:53 <kmc> this train has a sign which says "PLEASE BECOME FAMILIAR WITH THESE SIGNS"
18:08:24 <Taneb> INTIMATELY FAMILIAR
18:09:40 <ais523> kmc: there's something similar on the trains in the UK
18:10:02 <kmc> i want to put stickers of cthulhu symbols and such on it
18:10:46 <zzo38> How can you understand to become familiar with the sign that says "PLEASE BECOME FAMILIAR WITH THESE SIGNS" if you don't know how to read English signs?
18:11:11 <ais523> zzo38: you could ask someone to translate
18:11:22 <kmc> I think all the signage on Caltrain is in English only
18:11:25 <kmc> maybe some Spanish
18:11:40 <kmc> VTA (Silicon Valley) light rail and buses have English, Spanish, and Vietnamese
18:12:04 <ais523> oh, another git gripe: the command for staging a new file is the same command for staging changes to an existing file
18:12:18 <kmc> you can generalize that to "every command does four unrelated things"
18:12:22 <ais523> meaning that you can't use a tab-complete that only completes the names of new files
18:12:33 <kmc> ah I hadn't thought of that drawback
18:28:03 <Taneb> SEVEN PLUS TWELVE IS NINETEEN
18:28:15 <Taneb> FORTY IS THE ONLY NUMBER WITH ITS LETTERS IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER
18:28:33 <Taneb> FOUR IS THE ONLY NUMBER WHOSE NUMBER OF LETTERS IS ITSELF
18:29:08 <Taneb> A SQUARE NUMBER PLUS TWICE ITS SQUARE ROOT PLUS ONE IS THE NEXT SQUARE NUMBER
18:29:50 <Taneb> How is that for you, Phantom_Hoover
18:30:32 <ion> My nephew came up with a Korg Monotron patch that sounds like a fart and found it immensely hilarious.
18:31:59 <kmc> that's fantastic
18:33:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you didn't ask for /fun/ ones
18:34:00 <zzo38> They keep playing DEFENDER which turns out to be to *my* advantage. (I can also take advantage of opponent's resistance sometimes in similar way)
18:34:52 <kmc> huh http://www.wps.com/J/codes/ claims that x^y for exponentiation comes from x↑y, ASCII 1963's ↑ having been replaced with ^
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18:41:04 <reynir> git add --update, the guy which is now gone
18:42:19 <reynir> Also, sounds like he needs a .gitignore
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18:56:52 <Taneb> Hmm, I'm not happy with the voice I'm using for Lady Bracknell
18:58:37 <Taneb> reynir, I'm trying to do a one-man radio adaptation of The Importance Of Being Earnest
18:59:58 <Taneb> Lady Bracknell is a very... thingy character
19:03:31 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, scarily yes
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19:16:51 <Sgeo__> My gf's professor is claiming that interpreters read line-by-line, while compilers read all at once
19:17:19 <coppro> that's a common place to draw a distinction
19:17:47 <coppro> another one is whether they actually execute the code directly or turn it into some other representation
19:17:52 <coppro> there's no single definition
19:18:57 <kmc> almost every "interpreter" does some sort of preprocessing though
19:19:13 <kmc> producing bytecode or at least a parsed syntax tree
19:19:34 <kmc> though also, a lot of things that might be considered simple file format parsers can also be seen as interpreters, and maybe more of those are line-by-line?
19:19:50 <kmc> it's really hard (and pointless) to draw a sharp line between interpreters and compilers
19:20:14 <Bike> such is classes.
19:20:22 <kmc> one definition is to say that a compiler should halt even given a program which doesn't halt
19:21:48 <reynir> super compilers don't always, I think
19:22:07 <Sgeo__> And if there's no such thing as a program that doesn't halt in the language?
19:22:19 <Bike> then you go back to "really hard (and pointless)"?
19:24:49 <FreeFull> Sgeo__: AFAIK Pascal is specially designed so that the compiler only has to do one pass
19:25:42 <kmc> I still really want stageless Haskell, where you have something like (Typeable a) => Q Exp -> IO (Maybe a) available to compile Template Haskell ASTs at runtime
19:25:42 <Bike> do any modern compilers actually do that
19:26:03 <kmc> it's the Template Haskell monad.
19:28:07 <FreeFull> Bike: I don't think so, C compilers are mad about optimising as much as is possible
19:28:13 <kmc> I think it's named after the Star Trek character
19:28:25 <kmc> does TCC do more than one pass? and is it considered "modern"
19:28:34 <kmc> and most importantly, when will someone write a Haskell compiler named THC
19:29:02 <kmc> I fear you are begging the question with your definition of "modern" (itt I go out of my way to use the phrase "begging the question" 'correctly', thus impeding linguistic progress)
19:29:40 <Bike> oh i just meant like, not written for a PDP
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19:50:52 <Sgeo__> Has lambdabot gone insane, or is oerjan looking at my ? operator again
19:51:14 <Bike> lambdabot: are you insane
19:52:04 <Sgeo__> "oerjan said 10m 22d 23h 20m 48s ago: You realize ? must have the property a ? (a+k) = a+(k+1) for all natural numbers k? (also you have to decide whether it should work left or right associatively,"
19:52:35 <Sgeo__> Oh, I was thinking minutes
19:52:42 <Sgeo__> Why is lambdabot just delivering this to me now?
19:53:19 <Bike> maybe he sent it to sgeo__ and not sgeo, and you haven't been sgeo__ for a while
19:53:27 <Bike> thank god we don't just use memoserv, huh
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20:45:32 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> there's a co�p down the road from my new flat <-- mine too!
20:46:12 <oerjan> it's even newer than the flat
20:47:55 <oerjan> technically, down the pedestrian walkway across the railway crossing bridge.
20:48:53 * oerjan has had a membership card for many years.
20:49:47 <oerjan> also it's obviously not the same coop as in britain, although they did try to unite with the other nordic ones for a while, but i think they gave up on that.
20:52:00 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coop_Norden
20:53:04 <fizzie> There are all kind of coops. There's one in Switzerland and one in Italy too.
20:53:57 <oerjan> the norwegian one didn't used to be called coop until that nordic merger, but it didn't return the old name afterwards.
20:55:04 <oerjan> hm wait that's chronologically incorrect, they renamed 2 years before the merger.
20:55:21 <fizzie> Perhaps Phantom_Hoover was talking about, say, a chicken coop instead.
20:55:48 <oerjan> i don't think so, he wouldn't have called that socialist. or would he?
20:56:06 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't see that part.
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20:57:11 <oerjan> i don't think a pecking order is a classless society, Phantom_Hoover
20:58:20 <fizzie> Also, you can use ctrl-shift-T repeatedly to get tabs farther back.
20:58:30 <fizzie> Then you can just re-close the ones you didn't want to re-open.
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21:11:45 <oerjan> also, Phantom_Hoover and atehwa need to fix their encoding
21:12:44 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
21:12:57 <HackEgo> noooodl is the correct spelling
21:13:49 <oerjan> nooodl: why aren't you using extra o's instead of _'s
21:14:18 <nooodl> noooodl is reserved for my ipad!
21:14:40 <ion> There’s still plenty of space for more os.
21:14:40 <ais523> just like ais523_ is reserved for wired connections, nowadays
21:15:38 <nooodl> ndl is my three letter acronym thing i use in arcadey games and stuff
21:15:59 <nooodl> now that i think about it "ooo" would be a good one too
21:16:01 <oerjan> oh well at least you have a system.
21:16:22 <ais523> my nick eventually condenses down to just the 5, under more and more character pressure
21:16:34 <kmc> is that like http://responsiveurl.co.uk/responsive/dont/forget/url/
21:17:53 <nooodl> i'm sometimes ^ on another irc server
21:18:36 <kmc> is that the nooodliest character?
21:18:49 <kmc> i would think ~ if not ～
21:18:50 <mnoqy> ~ is pretty noodley
21:19:29 <FireFly> But what is the noodliest?
21:19:57 <kmc> ion: what was yours?
21:19:59 <kmc> first one I mean
21:20:12 <kmc> was it 'STEAMING BOWL' (U+1F35C) (also, eww)
21:20:20 <ion> kmc: U+1D008
21:20:49 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biangbiang_noodles#Unicode
21:21:41 <HackEgo> bin/ord: Bourne-Again shell script text executable
21:21:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ echo "$@" | perl -C7 -pe 'chomp; $_ = join(" ", map { ord } split //, $_);'
21:22:23 <kmc> also are you all excited for the newly released Unicode 6.3.0 http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode6.3.0/
21:22:30 <kmc> i know about this because I follow Unicode Consortium on twitter
21:22:51 <kmc> there are five new characters: ARABIC LETTER MARK, LEFT-TO-RIGHT ISOLATE, RIGHT-TO-LEFT ISOLATE, FIRST STRONG ISOLATE, POP DIRECTIONAL ISOLATE
21:22:59 <ion> Does it add BLACK FROWNING FACE?
21:23:13 <kmc> the main thing is they changed the bidi algorithm
21:23:34 <kmc> they also added standardized variation sequences for all 1,002 CJK compatibility ideographs
21:23:38 <kmc> whatever the hell that means
21:27:16 <oerjan> does POP DIRECTIONAL ISOLATE mean the algorithm is actually stack-based now
21:27:43 <kmc> they already had POP DIRECTIONAL FORMATTING
21:27:52 <kmc> "terminates the effects of the last explicit code (either embedding or override) and restores the bidirectional state to what it was before that code was encountered"
21:28:06 <kmc> "the maximum explicit depth is level 61"
21:28:18 <kmc> so, any esolang based on the Unicode bidi algorithm?
21:28:38 <olsner> 61 is a lot of levels just to put letters in order
21:29:32 <kmc> I wonder what ARABIC LETTER MARK is for and what happens if i put it by something that is not an ARABIC LETTER
21:30:24 <nooodl> kmc: you will be arrested by the U+1F89D UNICODE POLICE
21:30:42 <oerjan> kmc: then that symbol becomes absorbed into the Umma forever.
21:31:57 <oerjan> at least it's better thank khadafy
21:31:59 <kmc> I wonder if there has been any serious attempt to provide a simpler alternative to Unicode, from people who actually understand why Unicode is so complex
21:33:02 <kmc> there's probably no need because a) keeping the Universal Character Set would make sense in any case, and b) the other stuff (bidi, normalization, East Asian Width) gets "simplified" already by people just not bothering to implement it correctly
21:33:29 <myname> how about https://github.com/aheui/aheui.github.io/blob/master/_posts/2006-10-27-specification.en.markdown
21:34:51 <kmc> both interpreter links are 404 tho :(
21:34:53 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: I think fungot was just trying to figure out whether a semigroup was a monoid. <-- i do not remember what you refer to.
21:34:54 <fungot> oerjan: wrote a perl-oneliner ( in the plt matcher? :p.
21:35:16 <shachaf> oerjan: That's why I clarified a couple of lines down.
21:35:37 <oerjan> shachaf: i _still_ don't remember.
21:37:12 <oerjan> shachaf: now i checked, and i think you have confused me with olsner
21:37:12 <kmc> btw I only know of one programming language which specifies a Unicode normalization form for identifiers etc.
21:37:26 <olsner> since hangul characters have those separate parts, I think the language should use a different part of each letter depending on which direction the instruction pointer is traveling
21:37:41 <shachaf> 23:23:17: <olsner> apparently fungot "finally found the one", so I'm happy for 'em either way
21:37:41 <fungot> shachaf: but i remember a submarine!! everybody out of the stated sample, a woodchuck would chuck no amount of money. if you
21:37:48 <shachaf> 23:24:01: <oerjan> itt fungot admits to using cliches
21:37:57 <kmc> in other languages you can probably make distinct variables named "coöp" and "coöp" which could be fun
21:38:18 <myname> kmc: can't rust do that?
21:38:29 <kmc> yeah Rust is the one language I am thinking of
21:38:29 <olsner> shachaf: I don't remember the context for that
21:38:43 <shachaf> > let coöp = 1; coöp = 2 in coöp + coöp
21:38:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:18: lexical error at character '\776'
21:38:46 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think i was responding to the line you quoted.
21:38:48 <kmc> source is normalized to NFKC
21:39:07 <kmc> I haven't checked that rustc implements this rule properly
21:40:13 <shachaf> kmc: is there a difference between rust the language and rust the thing rustc implements
21:51:13 <oerjan> <shachaf> They're called leaves because they leave the trees in the fall. Which is why it's called fall. <-- i don't seem to find confirmation of the first part.
21:51:34 <fizzie> kmc: Python identifiers are also normalized, as it's based on UAX #31 identifiers: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3131/
21:52:52 <shachaf> oerjan: http://vidasegunda.blogspot.com/2008/10/my-favorite-season.html
21:54:14 <oerjan> shachaf: good, good. linguistics as referenced on wiktionary does not seem to agree, though.
21:55:46 <shachaf> imo linguistics as referenced on common decency doesn't agree with two spaces after a period
21:55:48 <oerjan> btw en:fall/autumn = no:høst = en:harvest (v imper.)
21:56:40 * impomatic is searching for the Simtel archive. There must be a mirror still online...
21:57:11 <FreeFull> en:autumn = pl:jesień = en:autumn
21:57:20 <oerjan> it is, alas, my solemn fate to challenge the hangups of those who insist on one space after periods.
21:58:09 <FreeFull> Clearly periods should have four spaces after them
21:58:17 <FreeFull> And shouldn't be called periods
21:58:27 <olsner> spaces should have four periods after them
21:58:59 <oerjan> also no:vår means both en:spring and en:our but that's probably more of an accident.
21:59:03 <FreeFull> Well, ....obey ....your ....own ....rules!
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21:59:46 <oerjan> the last two seasons are obvious cognates.
22:00:01 <FireFly> I wonder what the etymology of sv:skörd (= en:harvest) is, if the scandinavian languages don't agree
22:00:31 <FireFly> disagree on the word to use, I mean
22:01:29 <FireFly> Oh, from 'skära' (cut). That makes sense, I suppose.
22:02:39 <FreeFull> Harvest originally comes from keirō, “to cut off” according to wiktionary
22:03:15 <olsner> hmm, so harvest and skörd are cognates then?
22:03:36 <oerjan> FreeFull: um that's not how you read that etymology.
22:03:58 <fizzie> It's getting sort of early-autumny here -> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130929-au.jpg <- that's taken today.
22:04:17 <FireFly> It seems to come from PG *harbistaz (meaning autumn/fall)
22:04:22 <oerjan> it's a cognate, but harvest no more comes from it than humans descend from modern monkeys.
22:05:38 <FireFly> So that makes harvest cognate with höst (and høst)
22:05:40 <shachaf> what if i do descend from modern monkeys
22:05:44 <FreeFull> oerjan: Oh, I missed the middle of it
22:05:55 <FreeFull> Harvest comes from kerp/skerp apparently
22:07:45 <oerjan> while skörd would be from (s)ker- which is close but not exactly the same. maybe they're related even further back.
22:08:56 <oerjan> shachaf: if you say so.
22:09:09 <FreeFull> It all gets fuzzier the further back you go in time
22:09:21 <FireFly> What if shachaf descends from modern monqis?
22:09:39 <FreeFull> Who knows what what those ancient people spoke sounded like
22:09:40 <oerjan> mnoqy: is shachaf your son
22:10:36 <shachaf> mnoqy is not a modern monkey
22:10:40 <shachaf> or any other kind of monkey
22:10:43 <shachaf> why would you even say that
22:11:17 <FreeFull> shachaf: What kind of monkey did you descend from? Spider monkey?
22:12:06 <oerjan> a monkey was bitten by a radioactive/genetically engineered/nanobot infested spider
22:12:52 <FireFly> a monqi once bit my sister
22:12:53 <oerjan> it now leaps from internet forum to internet forum using its powerful sticky web
22:13:04 <FreeFull> oerjan: Actually, it was the other way around
22:13:56 <shachaf> mnoqy: you shouldn't stand for this
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22:14:50 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sorry, the monkey and mnoqy theories are entirely separate. linguists have been unable to determine with certainty which word applies, though
22:15:13 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
22:15:17 <HackEgo> mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
22:16:17 <FireFly> Clearly I didn't intend mnoqy to be dragged into this
22:23:15 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
22:24:21 <HackEgo> 26) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 49) <Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see? \ 92) <DoctorDog> I am an inherently pornographic being. \ 111) <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all,
22:25:04 <HackEgo> 881) <Taneb> That's the problem with Tumblr <Taneb> All the porn titles are taken by non-porn people
22:25:04 <mnoqy> i don't get 49 or 92
22:25:34 <oerjan> you expect porn to make sense?
22:26:26 <shachaf> quotes don't have to make sense to be in `quote
22:26:40 <shachaf> but there has to be some justification
22:27:08 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I... I think I've just registered mathsfacts.tumblr.com <ais523> Taneb: because all the porn names were taken? <Taneb> Yeah
22:27:12 <HackEgo> 1110) <Taneb> I... I think I've just registered mathsfacts.tumblr.com <ais523> Taneb: because all the porn names were taken? <Taneb> Yeah
22:27:21 <ais523> oerjan: good quote addition :)
22:28:38 <oerjan> just needed to check for the context first.
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22:29:10 <HackEgo> 881) <Taneb> That's the problem with Tumblr <Taneb> All the porn titles are taken by non-porn people \ 1045) <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners \ 1110) <Taneb> I... I think I've just registered mathsfacts.tumblr.com <ais523> Taneb: because all the porn names were
22:29:44 <oerjan> the porn quotes outnumber the tumblr quotes by quite a margin.
22:30:26 <shachaf> mathsfacts.tumblr.com is empty
22:30:41 <oerjan> 15:59:42: <Taneb> Wait for me to upload them
22:30:41 <oerjan> 15:59:44: <Taneb> One by one
22:31:01 <shachaf> oh, wait, that quote is recent
22:31:31 <olsner> FUN FACT: that quote is quite recent
22:34:02 <ion> fun fact 0 = -144
22:34:12 <coppro> fun fact shachaf = ion
22:34:29 <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
22:35:03 <ion> fun fact Z̢̨̺̟̝͙͍̤̦͖͍̤̮̳̗̭̣̣͋̉ͭ̑͑̃͋ͧͨͥͦͣ̾̇̓ͧ̔̈́̚Á̸̔ͤ͊̉ͭ͒ͪ̚҉̶̵͎͎͓̻͎͕͍̫̪͈ͅL͌̔̾̌ͬ͏̶̻̲̰̺͎͍̯͈̺͙͚̣̻̫̥͔Ǵ̛̅̃̾̈́ͮ̎̅҉̡͕̺̫̟̗́Ő̧̝̟̩͉͙̼̮͉̝̣͈̳͚̅͑̑̓͗̚̚͜͞ͅ
22:35:16 <mnoqy> that fact wasn't very fun ion :(
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22:35:34 <HackEgo> 95 803 803 95 845 811 810 840 95 811 805 852 95 799 791 95
22:35:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> mathsfacts.tumblr.com is empty
22:36:14 <Taneb> shachaf, oerjan, that's because maths makes no sense
22:36:21 <oerjan> also we need the reverse command of `unicode
22:36:30 <shachaf> Taneb: if i wanted sense i would have gone to mathssense.tumblr.com
22:36:34 <shachaf> Taneb: i went to mathsfacts.tumblr.com
22:36:38 <shachaf> Taneb: i demand maths facts
22:36:43 <oerjan> Taneb: have you given up blogging about it
22:36:49 <Taneb> oerjan, I have yet to begin
22:37:06 <shachaf> Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khinchin%27s_constant is a p. good maths fact imo
22:37:07 <Taneb> I probably shouldn't have told anyone until I had one published
22:37:22 <ais523> I think I prefer it this way
22:37:29 <ion> fun fact: most natural numbers have the digit 7.
22:37:33 <ais523> how's the BF derivative tumblr getting along?
22:37:45 <ais523> ion: and a large proportion start with 1
22:38:07 <ais523> (whereas only one starts with 0)
22:38:33 <ion> I see what you did there.
22:39:18 <shachaf> I'd prefer to say what we write as "0" should be written "".
22:39:33 <oerjan> exactly _how_ large a proportion is tricky to define, though, i think.
22:39:59 <Taneb> oerjan, I think it's roughly 10% of them?
22:40:06 <ais523> Taneb: it's more than 10%
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22:40:32 <oerjan> Taneb: fraction which starts with 1 of {1, ..., n} does not converge.
22:40:34 <Taneb> Is it? Wow, that's a lot of numbers
22:40:35 <ais523> although yeah, the exact amount depends heavily on what definitions you use
22:40:38 <ais523> because it doesn't converge
22:40:59 <ais523> I've seen figures as high as like 40%
22:41:29 <Taneb> I reiterate my statement: Wow, that's a lot of numbers
22:42:04 <ion> fun fact: the sum of all positive n^(−2) is π²/6
22:42:08 <oerjan> whenever n=999999999... it is close to 10%, but when n=199999... it will be close to 55%
22:42:08 <ais523> there are a lot of numbers in general
22:42:21 <oerjan> i think those are the extremes
22:42:48 <ais523> hmm, now I'm remembering what happened when the article on 0.999.... was featured on Wikipedia
22:42:50 <Taneb> ion, what's that in tau
22:43:00 <ais523> there was a flame war about whether it's equal to 1 or not all day on the Talk page
22:43:05 <ais523> Taneb: tau squared over 24
22:43:05 <oerjan> and the other needs adjustment too
22:44:39 <ais523> converting between tau and pi is pretty easy, really
22:45:54 <oerjan> ais523: i expect that flame war did not end up with any useful citations for the "not equal" POV
22:45:57 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm just too tired right now
22:46:11 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't read it
22:46:16 <ais523> just got amused by its existence
22:46:41 <oerjan> ais523: failing at _both_ math and wikipedia policies, simultaneously?
22:47:25 <oerjan> the people posting in that thread
22:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> there was a flame war about whether it's equal to 1 or not all day on the Talk page
22:48:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think it's productive to ask "how is it even possible that some people misunderstand X on the Internet", for any X
22:48:44 <ais523> after seeing "how do u write uploader comments" in a YouTube comment, pretty much anything is possible
22:49:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: which is just as publicly accessible as YouTube?
22:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> well surely wp's perspective is 'every academic agrees with this unless they're being a smartarse'
22:50:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: actually a common row on Wikipedia is "should you place more attention on the scientific/academic point of view because it's scientific/academic"
22:51:45 <ais523> I wasn't involved in that, but several people cited issues related to that as the reason for leaving the site
22:52:29 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I'm older than you you idiot <-- the years you've been insulting everyone don't count
22:52:45 <oerjan> so i assume you're about 11 or 12.
22:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover> well not counting the years you weren't dumb you're like 7
22:53:54 <oerjan> that's pretty close, my dad estimates 8
22:54:19 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: why do you insult everyone
22:54:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I thought you were a few months younger?
22:54:24 <shachaf> it's mostly just an unpleasant thing to do
22:54:25 <oerjan> (disclaimer: may not have measured the exact same thing)
22:54:31 <Taneb> Like it goes me --> you --> elliott
22:55:54 <Taneb> But you're weird (scottish) and went to uni too early
22:56:34 <Taneb> shachaf, you're Finnish American which I assume is perfectly normal
22:56:43 <oerjan> the scots get an intellectual advantage by not bothering with things like politeness, maybe?
22:57:11 <ais523> hey, I don't like seeing regulars insult each other
22:57:13 <oerjan> should i stop now, or ten minutes ago.
22:57:15 <ais523> if you're enjoying the flame war, go on
22:57:20 <ais523> but only if both of you are enjoying it
22:57:36 <ais523> it mostly just seems like pointless posturing, though
23:04:37 <oerjan> <Taneb> FORTY IS THE ONLY NUMBER WITH ITS LETTERS IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER <-- COOL
23:04:53 <oerjan> (also what does it say about me that i checked this in my head)
23:04:55 <Taneb> That of course only applies in the english language
23:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> hey, I don't like seeing regulars insult each other
23:05:48 <ais523> how does it work in Norwegian?
23:05:54 <shachaf> oerjan: that's not a maths fact :'(
23:06:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I suspect a lot of people have stopped caring about your intent a long time ago.
23:07:11 <oerjan> ais523: 1 = en/ei/ett is the only example i can find, although curiously all genders work :)
23:07:38 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's why I asked you/oerjan to drop the subject, rather than treating you like you were actually being malicious
23:07:41 <Taneb> Oddly, in English "One" is in reverse alphabetical order
23:07:56 <oerjan> (also that's the only number which is gendered in norwegian, except combinations including it)
23:08:14 <shachaf> oerjan: I think the Hebrew for "four" is also the only number that's its own number of letters long.
23:08:18 <Taneb> One Thousand is the first number with an 'a' in it if you don't count the "and"s
23:08:57 <oerjan> oh norwegian has several for that 2 = to, 3 = tre, 4 = fire
23:09:12 <ais523> oerjan: it should continue the pattern indefinitely >:(
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23:09:33 <Taneb> ais523, first natural number, then
23:09:41 <Taneb> Counting from "zero"
23:09:50 <Taneb> Which I believe is the only number with a z in it
23:10:46 <shachaf> What about twenty-zero and thirty-zero and so on?
23:11:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: numberwang: not found
23:11:21 <ais523> "twenty-zero" sounds like a zzoism to me
23:11:34 <ais523> (well, I like zzoisms in general, but I wouldn't normally actually /use/ them)
23:11:52 -!- augur has joined.
23:12:33 <ais523> zzo38 uses them better than I do
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23:14:38 <HackEgo> 859) <zzo38> Yes I am native English speaker, but it is Canadian English, not British English. \ 824) <zzo38> The reason it isn't more popular is because I wrote it today. \ 1077) <zzo38> If you want to ask me if I believe in determinism then you have to be more specific. <zzo38> I haven't checked if I conduct electricity significantly better than
23:23:35 <Koen_> hmmm, does someone know of some article that could help me choose which type of self-balancing search tree is the best-suited for a task?
23:25:47 <Taneb> There is actually a maths fact now!
23:26:30 <shachaf> that's almost not a fact :'(
23:26:49 <shachaf> it's more like a definition of ... imo
23:28:02 <Taneb> Otherwise it wouldn't be on mathsfacts.tumblr.com
23:28:45 <Taneb> Also do you know how hard it was to get that photo of the rice?
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23:31:05 <shachaf> imo don't cry over spilled rice
23:31:33 <oerjan> Taneb: rice more goes with the 1 + 2 + 4 + ... + 2^64 story, me thinks
23:32:00 <Taneb> oerjan, I didn't have any beans
23:32:13 <Taneb> But that was the allusion I was making
23:32:42 <oerjan> also, 1 + 2 + 4 + ... = -1, obviously.
23:33:02 <Taneb> shachaf, I had to pour the rice onto the table, take the picture, then pour the rice back into the jar!
23:33:12 <Taneb> At half 1 in the morning!
23:33:22 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-adic_number
23:33:26 <Taneb> At half 12 in the morning!
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00:22:30 <Jafet> oerjan's chessboard is 5×13
00:29:38 <myname> sounds like the perfect size for a chessboard
00:29:44 -!- kmc has set topic: Approved by the Postmaster General | PDF still available during construction work: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | the boily at the end of all things.
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00:53:51 <ais523> why does libpng have Y2K compliance notice dated 2012?
00:54:05 <ais523> you'd think that by then, Y2K compliance issues would mostly have become obvious
00:54:08 <elliott> "Y2K compliant as of January 112"
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00:55:28 <kmc> maybe they use the Islamic calendar and they're just being especially proactive
00:55:56 <shachaf> Maybe there's some sort of regulation thing that they want to conform to?
00:56:25 <Bike> it's so that government time travel agencies sniffing around for software don't get scared off
00:57:05 <shachaf> Bike: did you read _The Little Prince_
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02:41:14 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/dab7aa8bf8f038956f12899a2c004a35/tumblr_mr2z3uTZ2p1s5krz3o1_400.jpg
02:41:52 <kmc> that is amazing
02:41:57 <kmc> that is like something from http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/ [nsfw]
02:42:43 <Bike> this site is extremely worrying kmc
02:42:51 <kmc> i'm glad u think so
02:42:56 <kmc> i think that means it's working
02:44:30 <kmc> this site is a lot more nsfw than last time i looked -__-
02:48:49 <Bike> DIFFICULT-TO-STRIP-TO HITS makes up for it
02:49:19 <Bike> "The Fishin' Hole (Theme from the Andy Griffith Show)"
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02:59:35 * Sgeo__ wonders what games have better soundtracks than gameplay
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02:59:49 <Sgeo__> Games with a highly rated soundtrack but poorly reviewed gameplay
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03:00:56 <kmc> the film _Antitrust_ has a fantastic soundtrack but kind of meh plot and everything else
03:01:03 <kmc> however I still enjoy watching it
03:01:30 <Bike> what's it about, breaking up monopolies?
03:02:06 <oerjan> maybe it's a misspelling of Antirust.
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03:03:26 <kmc> it's about what if microsoft went around murdering open source developers to take their code
03:03:30 <kmc> a conspiracy thriller of sorts
03:04:37 <oerjan> definitely go with the soundtrack.
03:04:57 <kmc> presumably "Antithrust" would be the porn parody
03:07:20 <Sgeo__> Oh, not actually Microsoft, just a company that is a blatant stand-in for Microsoft
03:08:13 <Bike> Megahard, one hopes.
03:08:17 <Bike> or is that in antithrust.
03:08:20 <kmc> again, porn parody
03:09:26 <oerjan> i can see that the trick is to make it _both_ a porn parody and an anti-megacorp satire
03:10:39 <kmc> maybe it should be not a porn parody but just a genre parody with lots of dirty jokes, a la _Spaceballs_
03:11:30 <Sgeo__> I watched Star Wars IV for the first time in August
03:11:43 <oerjan> apparently the danish translated Die Hard: With a Vengeance as Die Hard: Mega Hard.
03:11:43 <Sgeo__> It seemed... generic. I guess it wasn't back then
03:12:22 <oerjan> i don't think i've watched IV
03:14:29 <oerjan> Sgeo__: i _know_ i've seen the relevant tvtropes page.
03:15:09 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny
03:32:56 <ais523> <Sgeo__> Games with a highly rated soundtrack but poorly reviewed gameplay ← Final Fantasy Mystic Quest
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03:36:47 <zzo38> Oops it looks like the video is a bit fuzzy, that perhaps the timing is not synchronized correctly or something like that
03:37:42 <zzo38> Like the clock speed for the video is not precise enough.
03:37:52 <zzo38> Do you know how to fix this problem?
03:44:57 <Sgeo__> variable variable, e's our op, if e can't solve it, no one can
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04:35:17 <zzo38> In Pokemon Card, if your opponent tries to use NIGHTLY GARBAGE RUN and stall and stuff so that you run out of cards, well, one thing I did was pass until I had drawn the last remaining card and then play ITEMFINDER to retrieve GAMBLER and play that; I won with 30 cards in draw pile when opponent has none.
04:35:26 <zzo38> This is a kind of tactics that can be used.
04:36:57 <Sgeo__> zzo38: have you looked at Cardfight Vanguard?
04:37:09 <zzo38> Sgeo__: No; can you explain?
04:38:08 <Sgeo__> It's a CCG. Each player has 6 cards in play, one (for each) is the Vanguard, which they can upgrade. 6 damage to it loses the game. And, um, maybe I shouldn't try explaining everything over IRC
04:38:47 <Sgeo__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardfight!!_Vanguard#Trading_card_game
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04:41:11 <zzo38> In the situation, no cards ever got knocked out; they didn't have much cards that could do damage, and their cards were all resisted to mine (which was actually to my advantage; I could paralyze them without allowing them to switch)
04:41:12 <SgeoWeb> The Web interface has a weird captcha
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05:15:49 <zzo38> My problem with the video seems to have fixed itself by now.
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06:20:51 <zzo38> American mahjong hands change every year just by printed cards. Another way to do something like that in a far more strange way may be like: http://www.reachmahjong.com/en/forum/viewtopic.php?p=56548#p56548
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08:36:04 <S1> Does someone here program in INTERCAL?
08:39:00 <zzo38> I know some things about it.
08:39:06 <zzo38> What is it you need?
08:39:23 <S1> nothing special. Just asking.
08:39:35 <S1> Cause I read that paper ("F - Not funny") remember that?
08:39:44 <zzo38> Without a specific question, there is no answer.
08:40:47 <S1> thx captain obvious.
08:41:42 <S1> well actually you answered. Cause the only question I had was if someone programs in INTERCAL.
08:42:06 <zzo38> You can also find INTERCAL programs if you look.
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08:44:44 <S1> cool. Where?
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08:45:33 <zzo38> I think if you looked in the esolang wiki you might find the article about INTERCAL which links to some programs. I know Knuth wrote one INTERCAL program too.
08:46:46 <S1> aaah right.... forgot that... sry ^^ thx
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13:20:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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13:27:17 <boily> good orangignal morning!
13:27:21 <boily> `relcome M_Biohazard
13:27:25 <HackEgo> M_Biohazard: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:33:46 <Taneb> @ask elliott did you get anywhere with your text diagrams library?
13:34:24 <M_Biohazard> I tried to make an esoteric programming language.
13:36:45 <boily> it's always good to esotericise.
13:37:55 <Koen_> M_Biohazard: it looks a lot like brainfuck
13:38:15 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 16h 49m 12s ago: the problem is, that's mutual recursion, which is a different joke.
13:39:08 <Koen_> this would explain that
13:40:35 <M_Biohazard> I think it's quite rubbish right now, though
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13:47:43 <Koen_> M_Biohazard: the "double-meaning" of all those operators is kinda strange
13:48:02 <Koen_> for instance I'd expect :( :( to be "subtract -1"
13:48:35 <Koen_> so :( :( :( would'n be -3, but 0 (because you subtract -1 from -1)
13:49:18 <boily> what is an ofto? (can't ~duck, or I will incur the wrath of the Phantom)
13:50:20 <boily> no. my monday-morning-uncaffeinated-brain can't parse the smile.
13:50:51 <Koen_> I suspect the O are eyes
13:51:18 <M_Biohazard> Well, if you wanted to subtract something, use :( :) :)
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13:52:09 <Koen_> but you say ":) :) :)" is -3
13:52:51 <Koen_> :( Either subtract (As :( :) :) :), "Subtract 3". Or like :), so :( is -1, and :( :( :( is -3
13:53:06 <Koen_> how do you make the distinction between "-3" and "subtract -1 from -1"?
13:53:22 <Koen_> also I see there's already a ;) operator for numbers
13:54:15 <Koen_> so I'd expect maybe ";) :( :( :(" to be -3, and ":( :( :(" alone to be "subtract -1 from -1"
13:54:40 <myname> what's the language you are talking about?
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13:56:07 <Koen_> your language sounds interesting
13:56:18 <Koen_> for starters, it appears to be purely functional, which is good
13:56:22 <boily> nüüüüüü! there are smiles! (and an OFTO.)
13:57:14 <M_Biohazard> IIf you think it's interesting, why not delop it yourselves?
13:58:51 <Koen_> well it's your language
13:59:01 <Koen_> but I might have suggestions!
13:59:41 <Koen_> can't wait long, I have to go
14:00:06 <Koen_> but remember, functional is good! http://xkcd.com/1270/
14:00:08 <M_Biohazard> :( and :) are both numbers, :-( and :-) could be actual subtract and add commands.
14:01:07 <Koen_> I like that + and 1 have the same keyword
14:01:35 <Koen_> well, :) can mean either "1" or "add"
14:01:49 <Koen_> you just have to make sure that it's unambiguous which is meant
14:02:23 <M_Biohazard> Koen, :) :) :) :) could be interpreted as 1+1
14:02:30 <Koen_> you could have some type-chicking - for instance, if :) is applied to a number, then it's the function "add", but if it's used as the argument of a function that expects a number, then it's the number 1
14:03:11 <Koen_> also do you have some syntax for grouping / parenthesizing?
14:03:13 <yorick> so you only have one variable?
14:03:48 <yorick> so what does clear do?
14:04:18 <Koen_> :) :):) could be interpreted as "add one to one" (so 2) but :) :) [ :) :) :)] would be "add one to (add one to one)" which is 3
14:04:27 <Tefaj> Is type-chicking used in stringly typed languages?
14:05:01 <boily> Taneb: yes, but it's done by the programmer when they don't forget to check.
14:05:23 <Koen_> what does "clear" have to do with the chinese sign language?
14:05:40 * Koen_ just realizes he managed to misread an acronym
14:05:55 <yorick> Koen_: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ofto
14:06:22 <Koen_> yorick: that's not really explanatory is it
14:06:31 <yorick> just think of it as a face
14:06:41 <Koen_> I'll try to do that
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14:10:07 <yorick> M_Biohazard: they had to bruteforce "hello, world"
14:10:40 <yorick> try all the programs under a certain length until one printed hello, world
14:10:56 <M_Biohazard> Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
14:12:11 <yorick> also malbolge might not even be able to run itself because it's not turing complete
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14:13:11 <yorick> myname: it only has 3^10 memory locations that each can hold a ten-digit ternary number (wtf :P)
14:13:18 <nooodl_> what the heck is the FT in OFTO
14:14:00 <yorick> http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/guest4/JAD.jpg
14:14:51 <yorick> I really can't make out a smile
14:16:11 <nooodl_> (ps does anyone know some way to quickly share drawings online)
14:16:38 <nooodl_> (the whole, "draw it in paint, save as png, upload to somewhere" thing is really annoying)
14:16:59 <nooodl_> ideally it'd be like an image hosting site but it has a little applet you can draw crude diagrams in
14:17:45 <yorick> I have a snapshot thing that puts things on dropbox and the link to it on my clipboard
14:18:53 <nooodl_> http://i.imgur.com/xyjCQgj.png
14:20:51 <M_Biohazard> Whoever makes a IDE or Compiler or whatever, can make OUO whatever they want.
14:23:39 <yorick> M_Biohazard: can you make more complicated examples?
14:23:55 <yorick> (also would having just one variable really be useful?)
14:24:21 <yorick> using things like repeat?
14:24:47 <yorick> and waht would you use ;) for?
14:26:58 <M_Biohazard> Well, I'm thinking it could be used like ;) (Add) ;) [:) :) :)]
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14:45:55 <yorick> so that prints random numbers up to 4?
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15:48:54 <Fiora> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/office/aa432714(v=office.12).aspx I I just wow
15:49:05 <Fiora> I found this linked... it's... a tri-state logic with five values
15:49:14 <Fiora> but only two are valid? I don't even know
15:49:39 <Bike> ah yeah that's a good one
15:50:32 <Bike> http://threepanelsoul.com/2013/09/30/on-local-color/ also
15:51:06 <Fiora> is that like "hacker news: the comic" xD
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17:05:59 <Fiora> I think it might be worse O_O
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17:10:27 <FireFly> Fiora: what is "tri-state boolean value" even supposed to mean?
17:10:55 -!- Bike has joined.
17:10:55 <FireFly> It has, like, three states. Except, by three I mean two.
17:11:13 <Fiora> I I don't even know
17:12:02 <Bike> wow y'all are falling down on the job
17:12:06 <Bike> `relcome M_Biohazard
17:12:10 <HackEgo> M_Biohazard: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:12:26 <boily> Bike: I already `relcommed M_Biohazard :p
17:12:32 <FireFly> Oh, they hadn't been `*elcome'd?
17:13:18 <Bike> boily: not since 16 o clock!
17:13:27 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:14:23 <lambdabot> Local time for Bike is Mon Sep 30 10:14:23 2013
17:14:51 <Bike> codu time, codu time!
17:15:25 <FireFly> And.. there were no CTCP reply. :<
17:15:32 <boily> @localtime metasepia
17:15:33 <lambdabot> Local time for metasepia is Mon Sep 30 13:15:33 EDT 2013
17:15:45 <boily> even my own bot answers CTCPes.
17:16:13 <lambdabot> Local time for boily is Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:16:13 -0400
17:17:50 <lambdabot> Local time for M_Biohazard is Mon Sep 30 18:17:48 2013
17:18:01 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
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17:56:44 <boily> netsplit? impending doom? apocalypse? why has fungot left? why? WHYYYYY???
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18:07:17 <olsner> boily: maybe fizzie is broken
18:07:43 <boily> @tell fizzie are you broken? do you impend doom?
18:07:43 <olsner> does it work to @tell fungot stuff?
18:07:53 <boily> @tell fungot can I tell you stuff?
18:07:57 <boily> olsner: we'll see.
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18:16:19 <nooodl> boily: do you know why Roujo disappeared from #esoteric
18:19:05 <boily> nooodl: he didn't feel like he could contribute positively to the channel :(
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18:22:54 <Taneb> Hey, neither can I but I'm here anyway
18:23:41 <Taneb> Why did itidus leave the channel> Why did cpressey leave the channel? Why did, I don't know, tiffany leave the channel?
18:23:52 <boily> there was a tiffany?
18:23:53 <Bike> kmc scared them off
18:27:02 <Taneb> boily, maybe a bit before your time?
18:27:47 <boily> the only traces I have of the palæochannel are in the Quotes. I think I stumbled upon a tiffany or two in there...
18:28:22 <Taneb> Did you even meet itidus
18:28:52 <boily> (hm. apparently there aren't any tiffanies in the quotes.)
18:29:27 <boily> there are even graphes, but fizzie is broken, and I can't be assed to remember where on the intarwebs his webserver is.
18:30:14 <olsner> z-something-something dot fi, I think
18:31:44 <nortti> hmm, when did itidus leave?
18:32:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2957
18:33:13 <olsner> nortti: fairly long time ago I think
18:33:43 <boily> I think he was there... last week?
18:33:57 <nortti> his last msg in my logs is 2013/05/29
18:34:28 <nortti> but that was really just a visit to say hi
18:34:30 <boily> oh, itidus, not nortti.
18:34:53 <Taneb> I think a fire alarm is happening, bbl
18:35:15 <olsner> boily: nortti is here right now
18:36:31 <nortti> before that, 2012/10/13
18:36:37 <boily> you didn't hear any facepalm. any reverberating sound is an audiollucination.
18:38:14 <nortti> also, am I consisdered to have left the channel?
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18:41:39 <Taneb> Well, that was fun
18:47:47 <shachaf> "Well, that was fun" -- Taneb "atriq" Ngevd
18:48:37 <Taneb> `addquote <shachaf> "Well, that was fun" -- Taneb "atriq" Ngevd
18:48:41 <HackEgo> 1111) <shachaf> "Well, that was fun" -- Taneb "atriq" Ngevd
18:49:39 <boily> we're up to 1111? wooooah...
18:49:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18673
18:50:58 <shachaf> Taneb: wow, that's a bad quote
18:51:14 <Taneb> Mostly to mess with boily's pdf
18:51:21 <boily> (in elliott's honour, that one about artificially inflating the concentration of djangoes and giraffes is not included.)
18:51:41 <boily> Taneb: continue like that, and I'll add you as a collaborator to the github repo.
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18:52:32 <reynir> I seem to be in too many channels
18:52:35 <Taneb> This morning my university gave me a pack including, among other things, some tic-tacs, some chocolate, and a condom
18:52:46 <boily> Taneb: in fact, as a preventive measure, you are now a conspirator. congratulations, you have full commit access.
18:52:58 <Taneb> If an actual person did that, I'd be confused and offended
18:53:08 <Bike> are you offended by tic tacs
18:53:10 <olsner> is that a github repo for the pdfwisdom?
18:53:10 <boily> well, tic tacs are great.
18:53:36 <Taneb> Bike, by that specific combination
18:53:43 <boily> reynir: who are you? were you `relcommed? do you like pulled pork sandwiches?
18:53:49 <Bike> i'm not seeing the connection between chocolate and condoms
18:54:06 <olsner> boily: but https://github.com/poulet/ is empty?
18:54:28 <boily> Bike: one happens before, the other after.
18:54:54 <boily> olsner: by the way, what kind of thought process lead you to think that I'm a chicken on github???
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18:55:16 <olsner> boily: because you say poulet so often
18:55:34 <boily> olsner: oh. my quit message.
18:56:02 <boily> no, I'm pfcuttle. the repo is at https://github.com/pfcuttle/wisdom. it is private.
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18:57:21 <boily> olsner: are you simon brenner?
18:57:50 <olsner> my github is fairly empty
18:58:28 <boily> there is haskell and assembly stuff, and it is fairly empty. I deduce that you are olsner.
18:59:25 <olsner> I might actually move the rest of my assembly stuff onto github soon
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19:21:37 <zzo38> What is the best method for chombo penalties in mahjong?
19:22:13 <boily> zzo38: method? you mean, the amount that should be given?
19:22:54 <zzo38> boily: No, see http://www.reachmahjong.com/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53165 for what I mean.
19:25:18 <boily> oh. that's a very interesting thread.
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19:27:02 <zzo38> I don't know if you have concluded like I have that there is something wrong with the tournament format.
19:27:31 <zzo38> (Such a format would still work on a computer though)
19:28:59 <boily> at our club, in a regular game, we apply chombo full force for important errors that would disrupt the game. for minor mistakes, like bumping the wall, it's a 1000 in the riichi pile.
19:29:11 <boily> in tournament games, it's chombo all the way.
19:30:01 <boily> one of our players went to european tournaments. he hates those from the EMA who enforce kuitan nashi :D
19:30:50 <zzo38> I don't like kuitan nashi either.
19:31:43 <boily> a strategically placed open tanyao against someone who obviously is going to score baiman or more is histerical.
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19:33:35 <zzo38> Yes, and when you need 2 han to win, open tanyao becomes more difficult to make, so you still have part of the consequences of kuitan nashi in a few cases.
19:36:53 <zzo38> In discussing different mahjong variants, someone mentioned American, which changes every year (and is otherwise extremely different from other mahjong games, but I will ignore that for what follows). Did you see my idea of one that changes continuously based on the planets?
19:37:05 <boily> the first point Kyuu makes is important if you are in a ladder. for our last local tournaments, you played (approximatively) one game against each other member.
19:37:20 <boily> score depended on your end position.
19:37:55 <zzo38> Yes that is important in such a format.
19:38:07 <boily> therefore, regular chomboes work, as giving points to the other players only affect a single game.
19:38:30 <boily> I think I may have to subscribe to that forum, and throw in my two cents eventually.
19:38:44 <zzo38> Yes, I think a single game is a format that works better (although see the rest of the thread too).
19:38:52 <boily> (or at least 5¢, as we don't have any pennies anymore...)
19:39:11 <boily> I read it, and there are some extreme measures in there!
19:39:14 <boily> I mean, yakuman???
19:39:28 <zzo38> The government doesn't make pennies anymore, and they are no longer required for payment, although we still have pennies (and I still use it)
19:39:59 <zzo38> Well, you can see the reasoning in those measures there, even though it seem strange
19:40:01 <boily> I have a bucket of them. they are gathering dust.
19:43:13 <zzo38> In a tournament format based on the total scores of each player to determine ranking in the tournament, any method seems unfair for some reason.
19:43:21 <zzo38> Does it look that way to you too?
19:44:02 <boily> well... I like the traditional chombo, but for situations where you could continue playing with one player tsumogirying...
19:44:22 <boily> aaaaaurgh. you're making me think on a Monday! that shouldn't be happening!
19:46:38 <boily> giving points to the opponents is very important if their position depends on their final scores. if tournament ranking is orthogonal to match points, then giving points is less relevant.
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19:51:01 <zzo38> Yes, and that is the kind of problems being mentioned.
19:51:57 <boily> zzo38: I'll have to discuss those matters with the other club members, if we're going to have any tournament next year.
19:52:10 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: what is an antichamber?
19:52:40 <boily> zzo38: by the way, any chance to have a joust between Vancouver and Montréal?
19:53:04 <boily> (feel free to replace Vancouver with whichever BC city you live in, as I couldn't really pinpoint where you come from.)
19:53:29 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: you shouldn't have said that. I don't have enough free time.
19:53:40 <zzo38> I am in Vancouver often enough, but I don't know how to have a joust between Vancouver and Montreal.
19:54:21 <boily> hmm... flying a whole mahjong club across the country ought to be expensive.
20:01:47 <zzo38> I once had a idea of some game that you cast a horoscope for the current time and place and then the positions of planets and houses and aspects and so on determines things in the rules of the game; the rules then change over time due to the planets, houses, and moon movement, and if in a moving vehicle, based on that too. What is your opinion of this kind of strange ideas?
20:02:48 <boily> I am way too tempted to try that than socially acceptable.
20:03:39 <boily> you're talking to a former nethack player. I miss having to take the moon phase into consideration in a game :D
20:04:21 <zzo38> Yes in this kind of game I have this idea of, the phase of the moon will be into consideration too.
20:11:38 <boily> I want to grow a bonsaï.
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20:43:30 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: how'd you break it :o
20:43:37 <Bike> (alt.: how can you tell)
20:43:52 <Bike> ok i guess that's pretty clear yeah
20:44:36 <Phantom_Hoover> well you can also fill in cubes, and if you're inside a cube when it fills in, it crashes
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21:06:22 <fizzie> boily: I am doing a thing.
21:06:28 <boily> Guest36655: hi! bonjour!
21:06:37 <boily> fizzie: uhm. what kind of thing?
21:06:49 <fizzie> boily: The thing involves a reorganization of hardware and that kind of stuff.
21:07:21 <boily> oh. good luck with your thing, then!
21:07:37 <fizzie> It might be that I'm going to have to go to sleep before a fungot. (Though I'm slightly unsure why it went down; it's on a separate machine.)
21:10:36 <fizzie> Oh, of course, it must've been the IPv6 tunnel.
21:12:46 -!- Guest36655 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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21:15:51 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:17:04 <fizzie> I got it back online, but it's refusing to obey me because my username is nonstandard.
21:18:02 <fizzie> It has a "~htkallas" where a "fis" should be.
21:18:15 <fizzie> It's short for Signal Processing and Acoustics.
21:18:30 -!- fizzie has changed nick to fizziew.
21:18:50 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:18:55 <fizzie> I shall do it with this instead.
21:19:33 -!- fungot has joined.
21:20:13 <boily> fungot: oh hai! (and no damning my mother)
21:20:13 <fungot> boily: maclisp cruft in r5rs, where it was from the us
21:24:14 <kmc> http://ariya.github.io/css/spinningcube/ CSS is getting pretty powerful...
21:24:56 <boily> that is the work of a witch! CSS was never meant to be useful!
21:24:58 <Bike> i'm just going to assume that loading my webpage would kill my computer.
21:25:19 <boily> (now I know where fungot drew AMICED from.)
21:25:19 <fungot> boily: while loops and gotos are bad therefore loops with tail-recursion are bad?
21:25:37 <boily> fungot: tail-recursion is good.
21:25:38 <fungot> boily: eye trackers track where your eyes look like? like a basic firewall problem. it's that simple.
21:26:55 <boily> fungot: of course I'd like to have a firewall if I'm wearing google glasses.
21:26:56 <fungot> boily: if you just rearrange your arguments to a macro???
21:27:06 <boily> fungot: only in the wisdom PDF.
21:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, the thing that scares me most about these things is that i can select the text
21:29:16 <kmc> I mean each side of the cube can be arbitrary HTML content
21:30:46 <kmc> remember when people thought it was really cool that you could run a compositing window manager and put a different window on each side of a spinning cube
21:30:49 <kmc> well the browser is the compositing window manager of the future
21:31:53 <Bike> i look forward to whatever system we use inside the browser that grows to take on its role
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21:32:25 <Bike> facebook, maybe. people still use facebook, right
21:33:12 <boily> imagine... four revolutions of the facebook CSS composited cube at the same time...
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21:40:17 <kmc> yeah that's the scary thing
21:40:21 <kmc> Facebook really does want to replace the Web
21:40:25 <kmc> I don't think they'll succeed though
21:41:08 <Bike> i see kmc is a google+ pusher
21:41:33 <kmc> I bet there's some cool open source Mozilla federated social network project that I'm supposed to be pushing
21:41:53 <Bike> how does federation work
21:42:00 <kmc> insert star trek joke
21:42:19 <Bike> today while eating at a franchise of a large chain i was wondering if you could break the management structure up more so it'd be less uniform
21:43:12 <Bike> somebody in this lab just explained if/else. described as "very powerful". it's true
21:43:42 <kmc> elaborate re: management?
21:44:18 <Bike> oh, just like, franchises are managed from above i assume, they coordinate different menu changes and such so it's uniform across franchises
21:45:00 <boily> that's the second anamanaguchi PV I watch. didn't make sense, like the first one.
21:45:02 <Bike> i was just imagining it not being quite so uniform. like the coordinator for franchises in my state uses a slightly different menu from the one in california (i suppose they might do that already)
21:45:10 <kmc> menus do vary regionally yes
21:45:13 <kmc> I don't know how much that's coordinated
21:45:29 <boily> I don't understand facebook, much less google+. what are their purpose? how do they work?
21:45:37 <Phantom__Hoover> it sounds interesting but i am afraid i will become Bike if i take it
21:45:47 <Bike> good news, i haven't done anything in systems biology yet
21:45:48 <olsner> nice, the reason lwip didn't put any source/destination address in my ethernet packets was that memcpy was broken
21:45:48 <boily> Phantom__Hoover: nah. it's biology, you can't become a Bike.
21:45:49 <kmc> fast food franchises seem to be pretty uniform but other things less so
21:46:02 <olsner> it pretty much worked as long as you only called it once per function
21:46:35 <kmc> like there are a bunch of hardware stores in the US branded as "Ace Hardware" but they use that branding alongside some store specific branding, and they vary a lot in appearance, how things are organized, etc.
21:46:41 <kmc> but apparently "it is a co-op and not a franchise"
21:46:49 <Bike> ooh, that's interesting
21:47:03 <Bike> is each store a co-op which independently negotiates with the rest?
21:47:23 <kmc> a "retailers' cooperative" which is a different thing from a "consumers' cooperative" i.e. hippie grocery store?
21:47:28 <kmc> I don't know
21:47:44 <Bike> i don't know either. the only co-op i'm familiar with is one around my hometown that sells farm supplies.
21:47:50 <kmc> it might be that "Ace Hardware" is effectively just a hardware store supplier
21:48:00 <kmc> which does some branding in order to promote its clients
21:51:07 <boily> http://goo.gl/maps/NUras
21:51:49 <boily> kmc: does the street view concord to your version of ace hardware?
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21:52:47 <Bike> yup, that's definitely it.
21:53:02 <Bike> is "quincallerie" the translation for "hardware"?
21:53:05 <ais523> hmm… I found a 3-valued boolean in the ncursesw API
21:53:30 <ais523> those things crop up in all sorts of places
21:53:46 <Bike> imo we should use four-valued booleans, because that's the best kind of logic
21:54:04 <boily> Bike: a «quincaillerie» is a hardware shop.
21:55:36 <ais523> Bike: nah, nine-valued booleans are where it's at
21:55:55 <Bike> what are the values
21:56:07 <Bike> oh, lectricity
21:56:30 <ais523> I nearly always forget one
21:56:45 <ais523> if it is -, it means an irrelevant value
21:56:52 <ais523> like "skip" in Algol 68
21:57:03 <olsner> used to work with a codebase that had distinct enums with YES/NO/MAYBE, XY_TRUE/XY_FALSE/XY_FILE_NOT_FOUND (+ all other possible error codes) *and* TRUE/FALSE
21:57:25 <ais523> olsner: having FILE_NOT_FOUND in there somewhere is traditional for a multivalued boolean
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21:59:15 <oerjan> happy australian mailman reminder's day!
21:59:37 <kmc> olsner: O_O
21:59:41 <oerjan> (just in the last minute, too)
22:00:10 <kmc> XY_TRUE, XX_TRUE, X0_TRUE
22:00:34 <olsner> XY was just an arbitrary prefix so it doesn't conflict with normal booleans
22:00:42 <kmc> ais523: it used to be that in Rust you could write "2u8 as bool" and this would give a bool that compares unequal to both true and false
22:00:45 <ais523> oerjan: why the apostrophe?
22:01:02 <ais523> kmc: in Perl 6, you can write "true but False" and have a bool that's like true in every way, except that it's false
22:01:08 <ais523> e.g. it stringifies to "true"
22:01:21 <oerjan> ais523: i only got an apostrophe wrong? that's better than expected!
22:01:26 <kmc> the Rust thing was a bug; that's just perverse ;P
22:01:52 <ais523> oerjan: well elliott insists on writing it as "australian mailman mailing list reminders day", but nobody else cares
22:01:57 <kmc> that's worse than "0 but true"
22:02:04 <ais523> kmc: it's the replacement for "0 but true"
22:02:28 <boily> we lost our australian.
22:02:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:02:53 <olsner> what does the 'but' operator do?
22:02:54 <elliott> ais523: it's actually "Australian mailman mailing list memberships reminder(s) day", in full
22:03:08 <ais523> olsner: it applies a mixin to an object
22:03:37 <oerjan> elliott: now get wikipedia to acknowledge it on the front page
22:03:56 <elliott> ah yes, Wikipedia politics, my true calling.
22:04:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v elliott.
22:04:10 <elliott> tired of having voice when nothing I say is interesting
22:04:56 <kmc> you are interesting
22:05:00 <zzo38> I think you can make somelike "true but False" in the other way around, in JavaScript, at least, making false into a object will be true even though it is string to "false" and so on, is other way around
22:05:31 <ais523> zzo38: huh right, that would work
22:06:00 <kmc> crap, what does one do as an op when someone's IRC client is rapidly connecting and disconnecting, producing lots of join/quit spam
22:06:15 <elliott> kmc: in #haskell we tempban with a redirect to ##fixyourconnection
22:06:19 <kmc> how do I do that
22:06:26 <zzo38> kmc: You could filter them out on the client side I suppose
22:06:39 <kmc> no, on Mozilla IRC
22:06:44 <kmc> but it might be the same
22:06:53 <kmc> well how do you do it on freenode B|
22:06:55 <elliott> appending $##fixyourconnection to the ban is how you do it on freenode
22:07:05 <elliott> but I think maybe redirects are a separate mode on some ircds and stuff?
22:07:23 <kmc> we're running Unreal ircd
22:07:31 <ais523> kmc: yeah, the usual response to join spam is a short ban
22:07:33 * kmc r's the f m
22:07:33 <elliott> also ##fixyourconnection exists on freenode and probably not on mozilla irc
22:07:38 <ais523> elliott: it doesn't have to exist
22:07:42 <kmc> elliott: sure, I can join it tho :D
22:07:52 <ais523> it just has to not be already in use for some other purpose
22:08:02 <elliott> banishing people to a channel with only kmc in it
22:08:02 <ais523> although, on Freenode, it probably has a mode set allowing anyone to redirect people to it
22:08:29 <kmc> elliott: that's some twilight zone shit
22:09:01 <zzo38> I have written a lot more about HWPL and removed and changed a few things I already had before, too
22:09:06 <Phantom__Hoover> he complains to you about haskellers and programmers living in california until you fix your connectio
22:09:16 <zzo38> The RAM and MUX and DEMUX commands are removed, for one
22:09:42 <shachaf> do i say interesting things
22:13:39 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: http://rationality.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Bay-Area-memespace1.jpg
22:13:53 <shachaf> i played mölkky with kmc and Gracenotes
22:14:02 <shachaf> and also douglass_ but she's not in this channel
22:14:50 <oerjan> is this a lass by the name of doug
22:14:57 <boily> circumstantial evidence tends to point to the fact that people from #esoteric meeting IRL don't cause the universe to implode.
22:15:05 <kmc> and it's not a map of memes, it's a map of community self-images
22:16:01 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: you have a terminal disorder
22:16:17 -!- Bike has joined.
22:16:32 <elliott> kmc: this image makes me want to set fire to san francisco ;_;
22:16:44 <oerjan> the newline should come _after_ the other character, you see.
22:16:54 <kmc> elliott: ok just give me 48 hours notice
22:17:15 <ais523> please, no setting major cities (or even minor cities) on fire
22:17:27 <Bike> san francisco's been on fire before! it'll be fine
22:18:35 <kmc> yeah in the 1850s the city would burn down like every other week http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist1/fire.html
22:18:52 <kmc> that's why we now have triple redundant firefighting water supplies
22:19:26 <ais523> because fires tend to destroy a maximum of two water supplies?
22:19:28 <elliott> every time I look at this image I find something newly upsetting in it
22:20:06 <Bike> the salesperson was quite clear that doubly-redundant systems are quote for suckas endquote
22:20:40 <kmc> there's the city water supply, and then there's a whole separate network of high pressure pipes just for fighting fires
22:20:51 <kmc> the latter can be pumped with saltwater from the bay if the reservoirs are destroyed
22:20:58 <Bike> this image that's causing pyrmoania is fucking amazing.
22:21:03 <kmc> and then there are also hundreds of isolated cisterns under the streets
22:21:24 <Bike> Computer Scientists -> Bayesian epistemology -> Effective Altruists
22:21:25 <Phantom__Hoover> oh dear, the systems biology module has differential equations as a prerequisite
22:21:49 <boily> Frisco is now fireproof, but is it alienproof?
22:21:50 -!- mnoqy has joined.
22:21:52 <Bike> is it time for me to tell phantom about turing's working on differential equations for modeling developmental systems
22:21:53 <kmc> the cisterns are marked with big red brick circles so that the fire department can find them even if they're drunk, which they frequently are http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/SF-firefighter-could-face-DUI-hit-run-case-4641434.php
22:22:17 <boily> darn. and I guess it is waterproof, too?
22:22:22 <Bike> Hacker culture -> With cleverness, we can do better than establishment institutions -> Quanitified self
22:22:31 <Bike> Hacker culture -> Life-hacking -> Rationalists
22:23:18 <Bike> it's got some good points, though. like "LGBTQ culture" being on the other side of the map from "Respect people for what they create"
22:23:53 <kmc> also people need to stop giving SF all the credit for the 60s counterculture, LGBTQ rights, etc
22:24:06 <Bike> woodstock was in SF right
22:24:12 <kmc> no, upstate new york
22:24:16 <kmc> stonewall riots were in NYC
22:24:41 <Bike> i guess i forgot that in addition to being how i joke it's also how i talk normally
22:25:01 <kmc> and the most enduring effects of 60s youth protest were in the South
22:25:03 <kmc> namely civil rights
22:25:18 <Bike> nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:25:26 <kmc> i was thinking the other day about the absurdity of describing Burning Man as a "counterculture event" given that it's thoroughly mainstream among the tech elite who largely control the world
22:26:02 <Fiora> kmc: isn't... um.... what's it called
22:26:05 <Fiora> SXSW something like that too?
22:26:19 <kmc> I haven't heard anyone label SXSW as "counterculture"
22:26:27 <kmc> probably someone has tho
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22:26:36 <Bike> in this wide and wonderful world
22:26:37 <Fiora> (I still dont understand what it is though? except that like hipstery people talk about it)
22:26:43 <oerjan> kmc: it's culture among those who count, right?
22:26:43 <Bike> i think it has music?
22:26:57 <elliott> SXSW: homeless wifi spots and also I guess a lot of bands??
22:27:02 <kmc> it's a combination art/music festival and startup demo convention
22:27:04 <kmc> for some reason
22:27:05 -!- azaq231 has joined.
22:27:07 <kmc> I think the latter kind of ate the former
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22:27:20 <Bike> i only know it from jwz, who mostly talks about the bands
22:27:30 <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity
22:27:59 <elliott> I'd like to see kmc and jwz complain about things together
22:28:26 <kmc> he'd probably hate me
22:28:46 <kmc> I think he's sick of nerds who only know about his nightclub for nerdy things
22:28:50 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity
22:28:52 <kmc> as it happens I don't give a shit about industrial music
22:28:57 <HackEgo> 1112) <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity
22:29:00 <ais523> oerjan: I was going to addquote that too
22:29:07 <ais523> except I'd be less sure about it
22:29:20 <Bike> i don't share much music taste with jwz either, lol.
22:29:29 <ais523> like, I tend to be the sort of person who soul-searches and then asks permission, before adding a quote
22:29:32 <Bike> (except for the rez soundtrack, inexplicably)
22:29:32 <kmc> do you like... secretly know jwz personally, or something?
22:29:50 <kmc> also, <3 rez
22:29:54 <Bike> music is like half the content of his blog is all
22:29:56 <elliott> 23:29:29 <ais523> like, I tend to be the sort of person who soul-searches and then asks permission, before adding a quote
22:29:59 <elliott> 23:28:14 <oerjan> should i `addquote kmc or not
22:30:03 <Bike> rez is the vibrator game.
22:30:27 <elliott> my soul services are available free of charge
22:30:33 <ais523> elliott: hey, just because I soul-search and ask permission before adding a quote doesn't mean oerjan doesn't too :)
22:30:41 <kmc> Bike: surely there's more than one by now
22:31:20 <Bike> kmc: a while ago i was looking at a teledildonics company's site actually. everything was super straightforward and it didn't use the term "teledildonics" so i think that means it's mainstream now.
22:32:09 <ais523> Bike: I think they're marketing at people who don't already know what it is
22:32:43 <Bike> probably. it was pretty straightforward, just linked dildos and, uh, i forget what you call the ones for dicks
22:32:49 <kmc> Bike: my friend works for a hardware startup and can't tell me what they do, but I've decided (and successfully convinced others) that it must be Android-powered cock rings
22:33:09 <Bike> i admit that i don't really know what cock rings are for or why they would be powered.
22:33:36 <kmc> iirc they constrict bloodflow to allow one to maintain an erection better
22:33:43 <kmc> not gonna double check that while I'm at work
22:33:46 <Bike> oh. that's pretty clever.
22:33:56 <kmc> it's scary :(
22:33:59 <Bike> "i can't look them up, but speculating at work is okay"
22:34:26 <ais523> I think kmc's explanations here are consistent with the typical superficial NSFW restrictions that most employers use
22:34:51 <oerjan> they need to go deeper
22:34:59 <kmc> the text on my screen is pretty hard to read from a distance
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22:35:39 <kmc> at Folsom Street Fair i saw a naked guy with a rubber tail coming out of his butt (presumably attached to a plug)
22:36:05 <ais523> kmc: you could use the fake terminal I wrote recently, before I implemented fonts
22:36:11 <kmc> it was pretty cute
22:36:13 <ais523> it went and rendered all characters the same way
22:36:19 <ais523> thus it was impossible to read the text at any different
22:36:30 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: on special occasions yes
22:36:35 <ais523> it was quite hard to play NetHack like that, I had to go on the color
22:36:44 <kmc> I bike to work on Folsom St. every day and I haven't seen this any other time of year...
22:38:28 <oerjan> wat, the coop sent me membership savings coupons and 3 of them are for specific foodstuffs i actually buy regularly
22:38:35 <kmc> they're watching you
22:39:36 <oerjan> i suppose it's _possible_ they actually do that, although i doubt they can afford the printing of separate coupon sets for every single member
22:41:00 <ais523> oerjan: they probably sent them on the foodstuffs that are most commonly bought
22:41:10 <ais523> things that you buy often are probably also bought often by other people
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22:46:26 <oerjan> it _is_ printed separately. the sheet has my name on it in two different places.
22:46:31 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:49:11 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Not poulet, for once!).
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22:50:25 <oerjan> oh there it says in small print that they're actually doing it
22:52:35 <kmc> I haven't been to DNA Lounge but I have been to DNA Pizza
22:53:11 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:53:35 <fizziew> There was that story about Target's automated data analysis sending ads of baby stuff to someone, and her father being all "She's still in high school, and you're sending her coupons for baby clothes and cribs? Are you trying to encourage her to get pregnant?" and it turned out his daughter was in fact pregnant, he just didn't know.
22:53:52 <fizziew> But the data miners, they know.
22:54:08 <kmc> "But it's too late. I've seen everything."
22:54:15 <Bike> was the pizza good
22:54:25 <kmc> Bike: it was a'ight
22:54:31 <kmc> cost way too much tho
22:56:42 <oerjan> fizziew: i just realized this is another proof i am old :(
22:57:00 <oerjan> thinking this couldn't be possible
22:57:28 <Fiora> amazon has very much figured out what games I like
22:57:49 <Fiora> "new for you: etrian odyssey untold: the millenium girl, hakuoki: memories of the shinsengumi"
22:58:11 <oerjan> Fiora: not finding out, but bothering to print and mail individual paper ads and expect to make a profit doing so
22:58:59 <Fiora> "tales of xillia, shin megami tensei 4, final fantasy X/X-2 HD, pandora's tower, golden sun: dark dawn, tales of symphonia chronicles" their recommendations are scary good
22:59:31 <Bike> amazon still thinks i really want to read Beats.
22:59:39 <Fiora> (that's the top 8, like, I didn't even omit any)
22:59:46 * pikhq_ def looks forward to FFX HD
22:59:54 <Fiora> oh cool. it even lets you tell it what things you don't want, or already own
23:00:23 <Fiora> "Tales of Xillia - Recommended because you purchased Sweet Fuse: At Your Side w/Pre order bonus - Sony PSP" // how does this work
23:00:51 <Bike> the "because you purchased" things probably oversimplify a lot
23:01:05 <Fiora> yeah. also wow I own like 5 of the things on their recommendation list xD
23:01:18 <Bike> though i don't think "girly VN -> another tales of game" is too hard a conclusion!!
23:02:28 <kmc> is there a way to use Amazon's recommendation engine to decide what to buy a friend as a gift
23:02:31 <kmc> that'd be pretty cool
23:02:33 <kmc> just put in stuff I know they have
23:02:55 <ais523> kmc: you could try going onto a temporary profile, and looking at all the stuff you know they have
23:03:01 <ais523> and hoping their adverts system picks up on it
23:03:02 <oerjan> Fiora: does it make a distinction between "i own this and i liked it" and "i own this but only because someone had the bad sense of giving it as a present"?
23:03:12 <kmc> i could buy it all and then cancel within 30 min >_>
23:03:20 <kmc> fizziew: are you the wchar_t version of fizzie?
23:03:27 <Bike> I think you can set it up to let other people see your recommendations and such
23:04:32 <Fiora> oerjan: you can remove something from your "owned" list if you don't want it to apply to your recommendations
23:04:38 <Fiora> amazon lets you manage everything, I think
23:04:39 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/gp/betterizer ah, hm...
23:05:30 <Bike> this is all reminding me that my Izhikevich hasn't arrived yet. you jerks.
23:06:12 * Fiora finds ar tonelico on the "recommendations" list and carefully throws it into an ocean trench
23:06:41 <fizzie> No, I think that would be wfizzie instead.
23:07:42 <pikhq_> Or FizzieWExLawlICantBelieveThisIsHowWindowsNamesShit on Win32.
23:08:34 <fizzie> FizzieA and FizzieW, for the "ANSI" and "wide" fizzies.
23:09:04 <Bike> i'm imagining disposing of some radioactive waste into a trench carefully just so that it doesn't get caught on the sid eor soething
23:09:35 <kmc> ah yes the famous character encoding "ANSI"
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23:11:05 <ais523> kmc: just call it windows-1252
23:11:08 <ais523> like everyone else does
23:11:38 <pikhq_> Windows has done more to hurt understanding of character sets than anything else...
23:12:03 <kmc> the great thing is that on the Web you can call it "ASCII", "iso8859-1", or "latin1" and that still means Windows-1252
23:12:06 <kmc> http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/
23:12:10 <pikhq_> I mean, seriously, "ANSI" for legacy charsets, "OEM" for still-older legacy charsets, and "Unicode" for UTF-16LE?
23:12:41 <kmc> and not actually UTF16 / Unicode either, right? I mean I think a lot of those APIs will do the wrong thing with surrogate code units
23:12:51 <kmc> the Web does :(
23:13:33 <kmc> 'FEMININE ORDINAL INDICATOR' (U+00AA) is a strangely named character
23:14:56 <coppro> pikhq_: yeah, what the fuck
23:15:06 <coppro> why the fuck does *anyone* do *anything* in LE
23:15:21 <coppro> pikhq_: that is not a reason
23:15:25 <kmc> not just x86 but almost every architecture still in wide use
23:15:43 <pikhq_> Actually, yeah, pretty much all the BE stuff is either obscure or dead.
23:15:50 <shachaf> the cool architectures let you specify endianness per page
23:16:01 <oerjan> kmc: is it a superscript a ?
23:16:07 <kmc> oerjan: with a line under it yeah
23:16:13 <coppro> am I mixing up big and little again
23:16:18 <Fiora> I remember LE has that nice little bit where accessing some variable in memory gives the same value no matter the size of the data type, I think?
23:16:25 <Fiora> like, since the low byte is always the low byte
23:16:30 <oerjan> kmc: that fits for some romance languages, at least
23:16:48 <kmc> oerjan: yeah; it still seems like the wrong level on which to describe the character
23:16:52 <kmc> but i'm not like, a character expert
23:17:03 <elliott> little endian is the correct one <_<
23:17:22 * kmc hugs coppro ?
23:17:26 <ais523> there are very few reasons to go with either
23:17:27 <shachaf> kmc: are you of good moral character
23:17:29 <Bike> the best part of 'endian' is the etymology.
23:17:30 <elliott> Fiora: you could argue that big endian is better because you can "drop precision"
23:17:33 <kmc> shachaf: who wants to know
23:17:36 <elliott> by ignoring the less significant bits
23:17:41 <ais523> which is why LE is probably a better choice because there's at least one minorish reason to go with that
23:17:53 <ais523> elliott: that assumes that the variable is a fixedpoint in the range 0 to 1
23:17:54 <coppro> BE is better since it's what we humans use
23:18:07 <elliott> Fiora: like, the dual of what you get with ignoring the rest of the bits with little endian
23:18:13 <ais523> those aren't very common, but when they are used, BE would arguably be better
23:18:18 <Fiora> elliott: that makes sense
23:18:26 <elliott> but what little endian gets you is probably much more useful than that
23:18:30 <ais523> like, the question is "are you using this data type because the entire range matters", or "are you using this data type because it has sufficient range"?
23:18:58 <kmc> "An encoder encoder's error algorithm takes a code point c and is as follows... Otherwise, if encoder's error handling mode is URL, emit byte 0x3F."
23:19:27 <elliott> also little endian fits the structure of how you write successor/addition/etc. stuff recursively on a list-of-bits data type >_>
23:19:35 <ais523> kmc: is that ... an elision, or was it like that in the original quote?
23:19:43 <ais523> elliott: but /division/ you'd do bigendianly
23:19:45 <kmc> an elision
23:19:49 <kmc> shachaf: probably not then
23:20:04 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/
23:21:03 <shachaf> "Applicant did not file his federal income tax returns in a timely manner for the tax years 2003 through 2009 nor did he pay taxes for those years. Additionally, he used marijuana from 1998 to 2008 and cocaine from 1998 to 2000. Applicant has rebutted or mitigated the security concerns under financial considerations and drug involvement. Clearance is granted. "
23:21:04 <Bike> this is... something, shachaf.
23:21:18 <kmc> two years spent doing nothing but cocaine 24/7
23:22:23 <kmc> "Although the Applicant has been found not to be a pedophile by his treating Psychiatrist," great way to start a sentence
23:22:54 <ais523> kmc: you could say that about basically anyone who has a psychiatrist
23:23:13 <kmc> I think "found not to be a pedophile" is different from "not found to be a pedophile"
23:23:21 <ais523> I guess, it's stronger
23:23:25 <Bike> oh are you doing that "read things in a weird 'logical' way instead of a remotely reasonable way" thing
23:23:39 <kmc> it's a difference of kind not just of degree
23:23:47 <ais523> kmc: I meant logically stronger
23:23:52 <kmc> an affirmative action "find" versus lack of action
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23:24:48 <kmc> "x-user-defined" best character encoding???
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23:25:16 <ais523> kmc: what's the encoding name for "direct to character ROM"?
23:25:43 <ais523> (I was vaguely sad to discover that Linux had decided to officially reinterpret that code as "code page 437" and not update the docs, although it made my life rather easier writing libuncursed)
23:27:09 <kmc> apparently "x-user-defined" is extended ASCII where the high-bit bytes map to the Unicode Pick Up Artist^W^W^W Private Use Area at 0xF780
23:27:27 <kmc> probably for lack of anything better to map them to
23:27:41 <oerjan> ok can anyone explain how to interpreted that OFTO smiley in the logs
23:27:42 <shachaf> hmm, dual citizens can't get security clearance in the us without relinquishing their foreign passport?
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23:28:23 <ais523> kmc: Linux officially mapped Klingon onto the Private Use Area
23:28:32 <ais523> apparently, because it got rejected by the Unicode Consortium
23:28:35 <kmc> ah and you use it when you want to transfer binary data, because if you say "latin-1" then it's actually Windows-1252 #fml #burndowntheweb
23:29:05 <ais523> isn't that application/octet-stream?
23:29:15 <ais523> like, if you're transferring binary data
23:29:28 <ais523> not only are the characters from 0x80 upwards undefined, the characters from 0x7F downwards are too
23:29:34 <olsner> maybe octet-stream is also an alias for Windows-1252
23:29:35 <kmc> I don't know, but there's some case where one needs this
23:29:36 <pikhq_> ais523: To be fair, there's at least a conscript registry "standardizing" the mapping of the PUA?
23:29:52 <oerjan> i recall from way back that the conlanging community tried to divide up the private use area for conlangs. don't know if that stuck.
23:30:00 <ais523> at least, the Linux kernel devs are apparently in communication with them
23:30:04 <ais523> or were when they wrote the docs
23:30:08 <ais523> and they arranged to avoid clashes
23:30:16 <pikhq_> http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/ Presumably that.
23:31:07 <Bike> "With the exception of his child support arrearage, he took no significant steps to resolve his debts until he learned [that] his debts were an impediment to obtaining a public trust position."
23:33:22 <zzo38> Was Einstein panendeist?
23:34:42 <oerjan> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein%27s_religious_views
23:35:04 <kmc> www.waseinsteinpanendeist.com
23:35:32 <kmc> looks like german when you smoosh it all together like that
23:36:42 <zzo38> kmc: At least the "Einstein" part does, I suppose
23:38:11 <Bike> is the "z" capitalized
23:38:52 <oerjan> Bike: wikipedia always capitalizes.
23:39:02 <zzo38> Bike: In a Wikipedia article title it will be.
23:39:02 <Bike> does it really
23:39:19 <zzo38> (Although there is a command to make it display in lowercase, the filename is capitzlied.)
23:39:23 <Bike> that's gotta get weird for other languages
23:39:46 <zzo38> I agree with Einstein that "the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously".
23:39:58 <oerjan> Bike: well, the english wikipedia. there's a setting and wiktionary goes the other way.
23:41:06 <zzo38> Furthermore, "the Bible [is] a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends".
23:41:32 <kmc> honourable and/or horrifyingly fucked up
23:41:55 <zzo38> Yes, that too I suppose
23:42:17 <zzo38> It is probably also "horrifyingly fucked up"
23:42:38 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> It is probably also "horrifyingly fucked up"
23:42:42 <HackEgo> 1113) <zzo38> It is probably also "horrifyingly fucked up"
23:45:44 <zzo38> I agree about "His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws", but unlike Einstein I do not believe these laws to be deterministic (although I cannot be sure of this).
23:46:26 <oerjan> maybe it was ruled by wishful thinking until someone made a really lousy wish
23:48:40 <zzo38> oerjan: Sure, but I don't think so. I am thinking that things "outside of the universe" are also outside of spacetime, which also includes time. But I suppose how you say could be an analogy, because, the universe (and multiverse and whatever, if any) must be *something*, otherwise it would be nothing. You could call that a wish if you wanted to, I suppose, because there is nothing else to call it, but that doesn't make it correct.
23:49:08 <fizzie> It is a weird: my tar is reading this "Kingston elite pro 133X" CF card (over an USB 2.0 card reader) at approximately 100 kilobytes per second.
23:49:11 <fizzie> It is sort of a shame, because there is 1.7 gigabytes to read.
23:49:18 <oerjan> i meant what i said entirely literally.
23:49:29 <ais523> fizzie: 17000 seconds isn't /that/ long, is it?
23:49:35 <oerjan> that doesn't mean i think it's true, but that's how i meant it.
23:50:07 <zzo38> Some other book described the existence as: They didn't know if there should be something or nothing, so they toss a coin to see, but that requires that there is a coin to toss, therefore existence is necessary. This is also a kind of analogy, for the similar kind of thing, I suppose.
23:50:42 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds similar to cogito ergo sum
23:50:49 <kmc> `frink 17000 seconds -> days
23:50:49 <fizzie> ais523: It can be, if you wanted to get it done before sleeping but are very tired. (The card reader slurps at least a megabyte or two per second from the SD cards the camera uses, so I don't understand why it is being so slow.)
23:50:58 <HackEgo> 85/432 (approx. 0.19675925925925927)
23:51:04 <kmc> `frink 17000 seconds -> hours
23:51:11 <HackEgo> 85/18 (approx. 4.722222222222222)
23:51:32 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, sort of like that, but that isn't really quite like what I meant, either.
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